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00:05:42 <fizzie> Mt. Hoover looks like a hoover.
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00:29:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, see message on there
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00:53:56 <elliott> [ ]10.11.1919-Nov-2010 16:45  25K
00:53:56 <elliott> [ ]10.11.1819-Nov-2010 00:00 110K
00:53:58 <elliott> I think we lose.
00:54:03 <zzo38> If a program is written in Enhanced CWEB (or CWEB, or WEB), that means it can include a bibliography, it also means that other programs/books can reference this program in their bibliography, too.
01:00:41 <zzo38> Do you want to join 'Charities for poor people and monsters with names starting with "A"'?
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01:13:48 <zzo38> Let's you play this game?  http://sprunge.us/QHYc  http://sprunge.us/ONKP
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02:07:54 <elliott_> Hey, even WardsWiki agrees with me:
02:07:56 <elliott_> [[Many people get into programming because ProgrammingIsFun. However, after some time doing it professionally, it loses its fun-ness.
02:07:56 <elliott_> The saving graces of a programming career are that (a) it pays pretty well, and (b) you generally don't have to clean toilets. But for those who want something more fulfilling from their forty-or-more hours a week for forty-or-more years in the working world, programming can be lacking.]]
02:09:03 * Sgeo doesn't remember the last time he programmed for recreation :/
02:11:49 <madbrain> elliott: every job has some bad points
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02:12:25 <elliott_> If what you like to do is X, then X is a bad career choice except in some rare circumstances.
02:12:40 <Sgeo> elliott_, so I should become a doctor?
02:12:43 <elliott_> It just so happens that a regular, 9-to-5 barely-even-code monkey job is not one of these circumstances.
02:13:04 <elliott_> Sgeo: Uhh... sure. I gather it pays well. But, also, don't do something you don't *like* doing, obviously...
02:13:28 <elliott_> Pick two things; one of those things you enjoy doing a lot, so don't make it your career. The other you like doing, but wouldn't necessarily do in your own time. Tada, career.
02:13:32 <elliott_> At least this is how I view things.
02:13:42 <madbrain> so don't do something you don't like doing but don't do something you like doing
02:14:00 <madbrain> then I should be a coder :D
02:14:05 <Sgeo> I like the thought of saving lives, a LOT, and having the knowledge necessary to help family members if needed. I'm scared though of making mistakes, and witnessing death
02:14:12 <elliott_> madbrain: Don't do The Thing you like doing; the one thing you really like to do.
02:14:22 <elliott_> madbrain: But do something you like to do -- just not something you would, if not being paid for it, do.
02:14:30 <elliott_> i.e. Enjoy your job, but don't... job your enjoy.
02:14:37 <madbrain> mhm
02:14:46 <madbrain> hence coder
02:14:53 <elliott_> Sgeo: It doesn't help that "doctor" is rather vague.
02:14:58 <elliott_> madbrain: So what's The Thing you like to do?
02:15:03 <madbrain> it's actually not my main hobby
02:15:05 <elliott_> If not programming.
02:15:08 <madbrain> more like composing music
02:15:18 <elliott_> madbrain: Well, then you're set.
02:15:40 <elliott_> madbrain: Us "The Thing is programming" people have troubles because programming tends to be one of the most menial jobs of its kind...
02:16:11 <elliott_> But no, who do I kid? The Thing is Minecraft. I can't stop building this goddamn staircase.
02:16:12 <elliott_> Jesus.
02:16:14 <madbrain> yeah I can imagine
02:16:28 <madbrain> irl I need a plan to end up avoid coding databases
02:16:39 <madbrain> or other similar stupid stuff
02:16:50 <elliott_> madbrain: Coding databases sounds fun! Making code that just shoves stuff in and out of a database does not.
02:16:57 <elliott_> madbrain: I know that's what you meant. :)
02:17:21 <madbrain> right
02:17:40 <elliott_> madbrain: Unfortunately 99% of programming is grabbing stuff from a database, processing it lightly, and presenting this, or grabbing stuff from a data, presenting it, and then putting it back in.
02:18:06 <elliott_> madbrain: It is really an accident of history that it requires a Programmer, capital P, to do this, when really a DBA or whatever should be able to set up a task so simple. (Assuming more competent DBAs than I hear about.)
02:18:19 <elliott_> But that's computing for you.
02:18:46 <madbrain> yeah
02:19:27 <madbrain> right now I mostly have to graduate from ridiculous summer jobs as a cook or doing nothing
02:20:04 <elliott_> I continue to look towards the very far-off comfortable box that is tenure. :p
02:20:15 <madbrain> heh
02:20:26 <elliott_> "Then I can play Minecraft ALL DAY!"
02:20:28 <madbrain> dunno about teaching
02:20:49 <madbrain> I don't actually like academia too much
02:20:56 <madbrain> the working conditions are good tho
02:21:38 <elliott_> I like academia. Okay, so tenure is legitimately stupid, but...
02:21:43 <elliott_> Research is awesome.
02:22:31 <madbrain> dunno, if I could get out of all those introductory classes I might get to research one day
02:23:52 <madbrain> ok enough serious shit
02:26:15 <madbrain> I came up with an interesting architecture for my synth project :3
02:26:43 <elliott_> synthysynthethoo
02:27:28 <madbrain> yeah, I gotta make a nice VST code template if I want to program the synth of doom
02:27:35 <madbrain> so I'm working on a smaller synth first :D
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02:29:34 <madbrain> so I'm making a waveshaper-ringmod synth
02:29:45 <madbrain> which is afaik a new architecture :D
02:34:24 <elliott_> madbrain: are you addicted to minecraft too? ;_;
02:34:26 <elliott_> i need a support group
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02:38:27 <madbrain> just a bit
02:39:53 <elliott_> madbrain: you should help me build this staircase, except i shouldn't give out the ip
02:40:30 <elliott_> madbrain: I've got a staircase from sea level to top, and then at the top there's a drop right down to bedrock, where there's a staircase to sea level (after turning around, so it meets with the original staircase in one place)
02:40:49 <elliott_> madbrain: now i'm extending that second staircase to the top, digging another hole, and then making another staircase to attach on to the first staircase
02:40:59 <elliott_> leaving a GIGANTIC HUGE MONOLITHIC LOOP THAT DOMINATES THE ENTIRE LANDSCAPE
02:41:11 <elliott_> also, torches.
02:41:52 <olsner> MONOLITHIC LOOP
02:41:59 <elliott_> yes
02:42:04 <olsner> everything looks better in all-caps
02:45:07 <elliott_> just one tower to go, I think!
02:49:42 <elliott_> DONE!
02:50:02 <elliott_> TODO: Dig hole. Build mouth-supports around the mouth. Light it with torches.
03:02:47 <Sasha> MINECRAFT FUCKYEAH
03:03:07 <Sasha> I remember a week or so ago I was talking about it and everyone was all "That's lame, man."
03:03:13 <Sasha> No, now it's COOL
03:07:20 <elliott_> 10.09.28:06:12:29 <Vorpal> alise, Minecraft?
03:07:23 <elliott_> -- and look at him now.
03:08:16 <elliott_> Sasha: Well, you didn't mention it in here.
03:08:24 <elliott_> also, Minecraft fans are still annoying.
03:08:42 <Sasha>  Imentioned it in here
03:08:52 <Sasha> and I am not a fan, I just like building shit.
03:11:03 <elliott_> elliott@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'sasha.*minecraft' 10.{08,09,10,11}*
03:11:03 <elliott_> 10.10.26:16:42:44 <Sasha> how do I drain big basins in Minecraft?
03:11:03 <elliott_> 10.11.08:14:19:49 <Sasha> mmmm Minecraft
03:11:03 <elliott_> 10.11.08:16:42:01 <Sasha> mmmm Minecraft
03:11:16 <Sasha> okay
03:11:19 <elliott_> :P
03:11:21 <Sasha> a month ago
03:11:33 <elliott_> 16:43:07 <elliott> we don't have any minecraft players here.
03:11:33 <elliott_> 16:43:11 <elliott> only fizzie who played for a total of two days
03:11:36 <elliott_> LOOK AT US NOW
03:12:38 <elliott_> Sasha: what am i meant to do now, though? I've built one longest staircase possible -- bedrock to top -- and one shorter -- sea level to top, and plan to extend the other one as part of the huge system.
03:12:42 <elliott_> BUT WHAT IS THE POINT OF IT
03:12:48 <elliott_> it is a gigantic, GIGANTIC blot on the landscape
03:13:04 <Sasha> TO HAVE FUN
03:13:05 <Sasha> THAT IS THE POINT OF MINECRAFT
03:13:09 <elliott_> fffffffffff
03:13:13 <Sasha> I make small village settlements
03:13:19 <Sasha> and then have fun in them
03:13:23 <Sasha> so ronery
03:13:34 <elliott_> at least this server is cool
03:13:42 <elliott_> skyway! ridiculously long, extended skyway!
03:13:53 <elliott_> somehow i doubt the tunnel to Mt. Hoover will ever be completed though
03:14:03 <elliott_> it is ... a long way away
03:14:40 <Sasha> Link to server?
03:15:33 <elliott_> Hey, I vandalised the skyway --> sign. (This is more a note to myself so I don't forget.)
03:15:40 <elliott_> Sasha: I don't think I should give it out myself, sry. Ask ineiros.
03:15:44 <elliott_> Uh, tomorrow, though.
03:15:51 <Sasha> darn
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03:16:01 <elliott_> It is pretty small really, and wouldn't be as much fun with tons of people on.
03:17:25 <elliott_> Also redid the Vorpal vs. fizzie sign. (Again, note to self.
03:17:27 <elliott_> *self.)
03:20:20 <elliott_> Note to self: Ask Vorpal if he wants stairs for the entrance to his house.
03:26:22 * Sgeo blinks at benuphoenix's presense
03:26:56 * Sgeo vaguely wishes he noticed it before he left
03:30:33 <elliott_> Uhh, he's here quite a lot.
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03:41:47 <elliott_> Undid my silly SKYWAY vandalism. :p
03:49:16 <elliott_> $ who | cut -d' ' -f1 | sort | uniq | xargs -i grep '{}' /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f5 | sed 's/,*$//'
03:49:19 <elliott_> Well, that's ugly.
03:49:43 <elliott_> Also apparently the -i argument to xargs is "deprecated", heh. Seems like you're meant to do -I'{}' instead.
03:58:38 <elliott_> "The program accepts the *note Common options:: only." --coreutils info page for "arch"; renders as "The program accepts the see Common options only."... probably more a rendering "badness" than a bug in the info page, but still...
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04:10:26 <elliott_> Vorpal-logread: Yellow: "Scientific!"
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04:23:23 <elliott_> Oh, look at that; convinced myself I need to write my own email "client".
05:00:26 <elliott_> Goodnight; bye.
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08:41:47 <Phantom_Hoover> .query ineiros
08:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops...
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09:20:23 <fizzie> I see there is some sneakery afoot!
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09:30:09 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Note to self: Ask Vorpal if he wants stairs for the entrance to his house. <-- I do at some point
09:30:15 <Vorpal> but well, not there yet
09:30:42 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Also redid the Vorpal vs. fizzie sign. (Again, note to self. <--- hrrm
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11:09:04 <fizzie> I don't know how it was "redone".
11:09:16 <fizzie> What the, did I seriously just waste almost two hours again?
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11:20:53 <fizzie> Heh, C preprocessor (ab)use: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/082ffefaaed3b450
11:21:52 <fizzie> I think Chaos has been mentioned here earlier, but still.
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11:31:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, chaos-pp looks insane
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11:40:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, argh he is working on SMP health :(
11:40:34 <Vorpal> ineros: please don't update any time soon
11:40:47 <Vorpal> err
11:40:49 <Vorpal> ineiros, ^
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11:41:10 * oklopol is addicted to mc
11:41:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, you bought it too?
11:41:52 <oklopol> no, and i won't buy it unless i get a computer fast enough for it.
11:42:08 <oklopol> right now it's 5 fps
11:42:13 <oklopol> well
11:42:15 <oklopol> 1-5
11:43:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, fast graphics mode?
11:43:13 <Vorpal> oklopol, short viewing distance?
11:43:20 <oklopol> i have all that
11:43:23 <Vorpal> hm
11:43:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, what are the specs?
11:43:34 <oklopol> and i also have a tiny little microcomputer
11:43:54 <oklopol> dunno
11:43:56 <oklopol> didn't ask
11:44:01 <oklopol> because i don't play games.
11:44:15 <Vorpal> err, you admitted you did just now :P
11:44:25 <oklopol> BUT I DIDN'T WHEN I BOUGHT THIS COMPUTER!
11:44:30 <Vorpal> well okay
11:44:31 <oklopol> well, i play hearts
11:44:43 <oklopol> and minesweeper
11:46:18 <oklopol> but anyway maybe i'll get a better computer at some point just so i can play mc
11:46:37 <oklopol> this computer usually can't run flash games
11:49:23 <oklopol> btw as i can't fight with the lag, what do you get from killing the different kinds of monsters?
11:49:33 <oklopol> wait, i could probably check that on the wiki, because i'm currently reading it
11:49:33 <oklopol> ...
12:01:30 <oklopol> is there a thingie you can use to quickly check how far in some direction there's emptiness
12:02:08 <oklopol> because i want to carve this mountain hollow and build a flying castle within it
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12:28:42 <oklopol> this game is so fucking awesome
12:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, oklopol!
12:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you on the Esoteric Order of Minecraft server or on single-player?
12:34:26 <oklopol> no, would i have to have a bought copy
12:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah
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12:35:36 <oklopol> i guess that's a yes
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13:18:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, NOW "castle of dread" sounds adequate
13:34:21 <oklopol> umm so actually how much was the game
13:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> €9.
13:35:10 <oklopol> that's like half a day's food.
13:35:15 <oklopol> i guess i might be able to afford it
13:35:32 <oklopol> WOULD YOU LET ME PLAY WITH YOU IF I DID??
13:37:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, although etiquette is to let ineiros give you the server address, since he runs it.
13:38:59 <oklopol> it would be nice to have like a bot mode where you could easily program bots to do stuff for you (although that'd require resources ofc), it would be the ultimate strategy game
13:39:39 <oklopol> something i've always wanted to make, i think this would be the perfect world for that kind of thing
13:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the tunnel to Mt. Hoover would have been a lot less tedious if it had been automated.
13:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Although making them react when they hit lava could be tricky.
13:41:52 <oklopol> there would be a huge amount of scripts you could use to make all kinds of search & sensing nice
13:42:04 <oklopol> (maybe you could get them from animal brains)
13:42:27 <oklopol> (blackboxes with algos inside... or maybe not)
13:43:29 <oklopol> anyway you could make proper defenses for your home and stuff, and you could have wars etc, might be fun
13:43:38 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's not already fun
13:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah...
13:54:08 <oklopol> the wiki isn't very clear on this, how long does it take for a tree to grow from a sapling
13:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> A while, I think
13:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Not that long, actually; a few days, perhaps.
13:56:14 <oklopol> hmm, i think i waited like 3
13:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I planted one in ineiros' Fortress of Solitude and it grew pretty quickly.
13:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It has to be in dirt and with a minimum light level.
13:56:49 <oklopol> well there was grass where i planted it
13:56:57 <oklopol> and in direct sunlight
13:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
13:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> In Classic?
13:57:14 <oklopol> alpha
13:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Not sure, then.
13:57:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
13:57:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps it varies.
13:57:40 <oklopol> maybe it was less than 3 i guess, i don't know how much time my mining took.
13:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It may have taken longer for ineiros' tree.
14:06:08 <Vorpal> have to leave for a while
14:06:58 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Although making them react when they hit lava could be tricky. <-- if on fire: use water
14:07:03 <Vorpal> or something
14:08:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oklopol: iirc sapling -> tree time is somewhat random. But generally a few in-game days. They seem to grow better while you are not looking
14:08:32 <Vorpal> oklopol, and planting on grass works too
14:08:34 <oklopol> i wasn't looking, i wasn't even thinking about it!
14:08:42 <Vorpal> hm
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14:20:36 <oklopol> also it's 10e, not 9e
14:20:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
14:20:54 <oklopol> 9.95
14:21:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So the pound isn't quite *that* weak.
14:21:45 <oklopol> yeah i can't purchase that without contacting my parents
14:22:08 <oklopol> or the bank where my credit card has been waiting for me to get it for 4 months
14:24:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I had the same problem.
14:25:21 <oklopol> the parent thing or the bank thing :P
14:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The not having a credit card thing.
14:25:45 <oklopol> yeah
14:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Except then the bank serendipitously sent a new debit card when elliott was bugging me to get it.
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14:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Mt. Hoover from the north by night: http://ompldr.org/vNjhybg
14:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Current plan is to raise the ceiling of the glass room by a block and put glass in.
14:57:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a bit hard to see at that small size
14:58:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about a maximised window. Like the 1263x857 ones I take
14:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, in a moment.
14:58:43 <Vorpal> or even 1680x977 it seems
14:58:46 <Vorpal> for my largest one
14:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://ompldr.org/vNjhycQ
14:59:09 <Vorpal> ah
14:59:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, with glass it is hard to judge where it stops going straight down and becomes a floor
15:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It's two spaces from the ceiling.
15:00:24 <Vorpal> yeah a bit low
15:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence the plan to raise the ceiling.
15:01:09 <Vorpal> right
15:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I would also like to make it easier to access, through a staircase in the "stem" of the mountain.
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15:08:52 <elliott> 01:30:42 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Also redid the Vorpal vs. fizzie sign. (Again, note to self. <--- hrrm
15:08:56 <elliott> I just made the formatting nicer!
15:08:59 <elliott> I'm innocenty.
15:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, tunnel to Mt. Hoover is now usable!
15:09:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: woot
15:09:47 <elliott> 03:40:34 <Vorpal> ineros: please don't update any time soon
15:10:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I also don't want him to update because torches are going to become lightstones which will not be as pretty on the stairs.
15:10:06 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, finished the other staircase
15:10:47 <elliott> 04:28:42 <oklopol> this game is so fucking awesome
15:10:49 <oklopol> yay trees are growing
15:10:50 <elliott> But it's 3D!
15:12:24 <oklopol> yeah, crazy
15:22:53 <elliott> 05:38:59 <oklopol> it would be nice to have like a bot mode where you could easily program bots to do stuff for you (although that'd require resources ofc), it would be the ultimate strategy game
15:22:53 <elliott> 05:39:39 <oklopol> something i've always wanted to make, i think this would be the perfect world for that kind of thing
15:22:54 <elliott> 05:41:52 <oklopol> there would be a huge amount of scripts you could use to make all kinds of search & sensing nice
15:22:54 <elliott> 05:42:04 <oklopol> (maybe you could get them from animal brains)
15:22:55 <elliott> 05:42:27 <oklopol> (blackboxes with algos inside... or maybe not)
15:22:57 <elliott> 05:43:29 <oklopol> anyway you could make proper defenses for your home and stuff, and you could have wars etc, might be fun
15:23:00 <elliott> 05:43:38 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's not already fun
15:23:02 <elliott> oklopol: play Dwarf Fortress.
15:24:04 <oklopol> it's like that?
15:25:28 <elliott> oklopol: sorta, i haven't played, but
15:25:45 <elliott> oklopol: i gather that the main difference is that instead of being smart and helpful, the dwarves are all suicidal morons
15:25:54 <elliott> and, also, your responsibility
15:29:41 <elliott> oklopol: it's also meant to be one of the most difficult/deep games :)
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15:38:45 <oklopol> what do you mean suicidal morons, you can't program them?
15:39:19 <oklopol> or you can program them but they have their own moving algos etc, which suck?
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16:07:07 <elliott> <oklopol> what do you mean suicidal morons, you can't program them?
16:07:17 <elliott> you can't, as far as i know... but, at least, it's closer to what you were talking about than Minecraft :)
16:07:31 <elliott> it's also a 3D world but with a 2D interface, so yeah
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16:19:07 <oklopol> okay the lag seems to be getting worse, i just used almost a whole day to make a 4x5 glass wall
16:29:03 <elliott> oklopol: what settings have you g ot it on
16:29:04 <elliott> *got
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16:53:48 <oklopol> the minimal settings, as i've told you
16:54:41 <elliott> oklopol: close every other prorgam :P
16:54:44 <elliott> *program
16:56:39 <oklopol> i refuse to
16:59:03 <fizzie> Re "don't update", at least for the halloween update the client -- which auto-updates, of course -- refused to connect to old servers.
16:59:05 <fizzie> So...
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17:00:53 * Sgeo throws hate at Windows 7
17:01:11 <elliott> fizzie: If I were you, I would "cp -R .minecraft .minecraft_good" at your nearest convenience, since we don't want the server to be updated.
17:01:41 <Sgeo> What's going on with updating?
17:02:26 <fizzie> Speak for yourself; I probably would want it to update, even if it brings server-side health.
17:04:58 <elliott> fizzie: It also fixes the respawning thing. Also, torches will become impermanent soon, and lanterns will be very difficult to get.
17:05:17 <elliott> Anyway if the server doesn't update there's little choice. :P
17:05:43 <fizzie> ineiros: What's your onion on all this?
17:05:52 <oklopol> no monsters & no health in the serverer game?
17:05:58 <elliott> oklopol: monsters optionally, but no health
17:06:08 <elliott> fizzie: He's said he was pretty lazy to upgrade, but that was before you revealed that nugget of knowledge.
17:06:16 <fizzie> Monsters are unkillable, so they're pretty silly.
17:06:16 <elliott> oklopol: also tools recharge if you drop them and pick back up
17:06:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:07:40 <fizzie> Blocking the client from auto-updating sounds tedious, though of course doable. As does keeping two versions (one for single-player bugfixes and so, one for multiplayer).
17:08:01 <elliott> fizzie: Just enter an invalid password. Apparently the server refuses to let you connect in that case, but Eh We'll Figure Out Something.
17:08:08 <elliott> fizzie: (It may be easiest to simply make the server spoof a version, but.)
17:13:37 <fizzie> Anyway, I'd probably just out of principle prefer getting the obvious-bug "features" (like no falling damage, no tool-wear-out thing) to get fixed, no matter how useful they happen to be for buildnung. But whatevers.
17:13:57 <ais523> are you trying to get inside the mind of Notch?
17:14:13 <fizzie> No, he's posted in his blag that he's doing server-side health.
17:14:20 <fizzie> But those folks want to keep them bugs.
17:14:33 <ineiros> If the torch issue will be too annyoing, I'll just make sure there are enough pumpkins for everyone.
17:14:51 <elliott> ineiros: Better to put a shitload of torches somewhere.
17:14:55 <elliott> They'll turn into lanterns.
17:15:13 <fizzie> You can just /give laterns out by the boatload even post-update, it's not really an issue that way.
17:15:35 <fizzie> Anyway, if "hard to get" just means you need iron and lightstone dust, that's not especially hard after all.
17:15:40 <elliott> I still think torches look nicer.
17:15:53 <fizzie> We haven't even seen lanterns, I don't know how you can compare.
17:16:18 <elliott> fizzie: I know what a lantern looks like.
17:16:21 <elliott> They don't look like torches. :p
17:17:07 <fizzie> Well, something like http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:Praha_laterne-00-2003_12_22.jpg (second google-image hit for "lantern") doesn't look so bad, as long as it's not overdone.
17:17:37 <elliott> Not as atmospheric as torches!
17:20:56 <ineiros> Well, the details will probably be out soon.
17:21:11 <elliott> Lanterns aren't next week,a nyway.
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17:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what would the crafting for a lantern be?
17:21:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Iron and lightstone dust.
17:21:33 <ineiros> And then we can see if we'll start to get night-time monsters as well. ;)
17:21:37 <elliott> Compare: stick and coal.
17:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that is a problem...
17:21:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is.
17:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Get ineiros to give us piles of them?
17:22:03 <fizzie> The "problem" seems to be that you're just utterly lazy bums.
17:22:03 <ineiros> Why do you speculate so much?
17:22:11 <elliott> ineiros: ...because it's been revealed?
17:23:03 <ineiros> elliott: Which part? And where? Details have a tendency to change.
17:23:33 <elliott> Oh, it seems it may not be confirmed (lightstone).
17:24:01 <elliott> Bleh, whatever.
17:27:14 <oklopol> you need about one torch every 10 seconds, and i've found like 20 iron altogether
17:27:21 <oklopol> (i don't dig down)
17:28:10 <fizzie> I have 198 iron stockpiled at the moment, and anyway it's not like torches are going to go *away*, they just flop off and need to be relighted as you go with flint-and-steel.
17:28:48 <fizzie> Anyway, we'll see about the rarity. Maybe it's only lightstone dust, which you can get by the billions and billions in the Nether. (Though he *did* say that bit about lanterns being "hard to get" somewhere.)
17:35:44 <oklopol> i don't believe in nether, my block figure is an atheist.
17:43:07 <elliott> does anyone know if stinky pirates like oklopol can connect to servers
17:43:19 <elliott> (he's finnish so he gets automatic rights to do so)
17:43:30 <oklopol> i have the server addr
17:44:25 <oklopol> i pirated it
17:45:27 <ais523> elliott: hmm, there are special rules for finns?
17:45:27 <oklopol> my pirated copy of mc even came with a server program, so it would be a bit surprising if there was no way to do server stuff with it
17:46:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, can oklopol play on the Esoteric Order server/
17:46:23 <oklopol> ineiros has given his blessing
17:46:24 <elliott> ais523: it's a finnish server so
17:46:25 <ais523> I don't see why people think they're entitled to pirate things
17:46:41 <oklopol> ais523: no, i have automatic right to get on the server
17:46:47 <elliott> ais523: because copyright law is bullshit
17:46:48 <oklopol> *an
17:47:01 <elliott> ais523: same way i wouldn't obey a law that, say, forbid me from saying the word "egg"
17:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, can you join in here?
17:47:14 <elliott> oklopol: the servers check for login, i think
17:47:21 <oklopol> maybe i'll try, even though i'm in the middle of some really exciting stuff.
17:47:22 <ais523> elliott: indeed; I can see arguments for pirating things like abandonware, but why would you pirate stuff that would be copyrighted even under a sane copyright law?
17:47:33 <elliott> ais523: I don't believe in a sane copyright law.
17:47:41 <elliott> ais523: I oppose copyright; simple as that.
17:48:07 <cheater99> Sgeo: i liked that article on the monad intuitions
17:48:12 <cheater99> Sgeo: thanks for the link
17:48:16 <Sgeo> yw
17:48:29 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that seems a little ridiculous; copyright law is out of control, but as far as I can tell the basic idea is a good one
17:48:30 <oklopol> hehe, i just got "Legal in Finland" as a title screen
17:48:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, can you connect to us?
17:48:41 <elliott> ais523: I disagree.
17:48:50 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i don't seem to be able to
17:48:53 <oklopol> user not premium.
17:48:54 <cheater99> ais523: i'm with alise on copyright
17:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Aww.
17:48:59 <cheater99> ais523: i see it as a negative thing
17:49:07 <oklopol> ais523: i agree with you
17:49:15 <elliott> oklopol: it says that when you actually try and connect? hmm
17:49:42 <fizzie> The server does a player verification thing, methinks.
17:49:49 <fizzie> Because it's down when minecraft.net is down.
17:50:03 <fizzie> Returns some sort of passed-on exception about a minecraft.net URL.
17:50:08 <oklopol> bleh
17:50:45 <cheater99> FIZZIE
17:50:48 <cheater99> WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON
17:50:51 <cheater99> IT IS IMPORTANT
17:51:11 <ais523> elliott: what's your position on trademarks, patents, and trade secrets?
17:51:18 <oklopol> fizzie: i disagree with cheater99, it's not important
17:51:21 <oklopol> ais523: what do you think?
17:51:29 <ais523> (I don't think those can be necessarily inferred from someone's position on copyrights)
17:51:45 <ais523> oklopol: I see nothing wrong with even the literal wording of current trademark law, although sometimes people try to use it in rather odd ways
17:51:58 <ais523> I'm undecided on patents, but think if they're viable at all they should be shortened to reasonable lengths
17:52:17 <elliott> ais523: Trademarks seem reasonable enough to me. Patents are, in their current form, beyond broken; I am open to the idea that the basic concept has some merit, but until someone demonstrates this to me, I oppose them.
17:52:21 <ais523> and I think trade secrets are sort-of redundant with the other laws
17:52:39 <elliott> ais523: I don't think revealing trade secrets should be punishable at all, unless we interpret "trade secrets" differently.
17:52:50 <oklopol> ais523: nono, your opinion on whether fizzie should tell his opinioin.
17:52:53 <oklopol> *opinion
17:53:15 <oklopol> see i prefer the metaconversation.
17:53:34 <ais523> oklopol: oh; I don't think anyone should be forced to join a particular conversation on IRC, but notifying them of a conversation they might be interested in is entirely appropriate
17:53:44 <cheater99> ais523: i think copyright is idiotic. i think trade secrets are good idea. i think patents are idiotic. i don't have a position on trademarks.
17:53:55 <ais523> cheater99: hmm, interesting
17:54:15 <ais523> the thing with a copyrightless universe is that the vast majority of currently copyrightable things would never be released at all
17:54:30 <cheater99> very good
17:54:41 <ais523> for instance, you have a legal right to look at the FBI's declassified files in America, but if you choose to, they take you into a room and give you a paper copy to look at
17:54:43 <cheater99> that takes out the people who do it just to get money from copyrights
17:55:04 <cheater99> and leaves in the money who release things because they want to let the world know about those things
17:55:12 <ais523> and you don't have much of an ability to do anything with the information but memorise it
17:55:12 <cheater99> i.e. the true musicians, researchers, directors
17:55:18 <oklopol> the money? :P
17:55:26 <cheater99> s/money/people/
17:55:29 <oklopol> :D
17:55:36 <ais523> cheater99: that's not what would happen at all, though
17:55:37 <oklopol> i found that very funny
17:55:41 <cheater99> !addquote s/money/people
17:55:51 <oklopol> `
17:55:57 <ais523> films would be shown only in closed cinemas which people had to sign non-disclosure agreements to be allowed to enter, etc
17:56:01 <cheater99> ais523: funny, mathematics has been very happy and prosperous for thousands of years without the notion of copyright
17:56:14 <HackEgo> No output.
17:56:14 <oklopol> `addquote s/money/people
17:56:18 <HackEgo> 262|s/money/people
17:56:18 <cheater99> and buskers don't use NDAs
17:56:18 <oklopol> hmm
17:56:24 <oklopol> right
17:56:34 <elliott> ais523: Please stop preventing your opinion as fact. Thanks.
17:56:37 <elliott> erm.
17:56:39 <elliott> ais523: Please stop presenting your opinion as fact. Thanks.
17:56:48 <ais523> elliott: I'm presenting a prediction, as a prediction
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17:57:00 <elliott> ais523: "films would be shown only" -- this is not "I predict that films would be shown only".
17:57:11 <oklopol> yes it is
17:57:12 <ais523> opinions and facts are both just statements, I don't think there's any particular grammatical distinction between them
17:57:27 <cheater99> ais523: i've had a bit of that same reaction, but i let it slip due to the fact that it's only your opinion that you're expressing.
17:57:32 <oklopol> ais523: there is in ithkuil
17:57:40 <ais523> oklopol: ooh, interesting to know
17:57:51 <cheater99> what's ithkuil?
17:58:20 <ais523> cheater99: there will always be people who are willing to do things altruistically, or be paid to release them by governments (which is how maths and science has traditionally developed, even centuries ago)
17:58:30 <oklopol> at least iirc
17:58:36 <oklopol> it's ages since i read the grammar
17:58:51 <cheater99> ais523: yes. those are the people who are worth it
17:58:51 <ais523> but expecting them to get a reasonable level of funding to carry on their lives just from that, in most cases, is like expecting communism to work correctly
17:59:08 <cheater99> ais523: i don't want to read anything written by losers who can't even sustain themselves
17:59:13 <cheater99> ais523: cruel but true
17:59:33 <ais523> cheater99: except, those are the people who release things for free
17:59:42 <cheater99> no, not really
18:00:01 <cheater99> ais523: life is about sustaining yourself and then doing the fun stuff. if someone can sustain themselves enough to be able to e.g. have free time to write a book, i respect them
18:00:05 <ais523> most people who release to open-source software, say, do it as a hobby as an antidote to a job in closed-source software
18:00:10 <cheater99> if someone's job is "writing a book" then that's a BS job
18:00:17 <cheater99> yes
18:00:25 <cheater99> those people are able to sustain themselves
18:00:30 <cheater99> AND do the fun stuff
18:00:34 <ais523> cheater99: they wouldn't be able to without copyright, though
18:00:41 <ais523> because their employers would have no reason to pay them
18:00:42 <cheater99> why wouldn't they?
18:00:53 <cheater99> of course they would
18:01:03 <cheater99> you're very very wrong to think that
18:01:14 <ais523> likewise, most authors sell the rights to their books to a publisher
18:01:22 <cheater99> i work under a contract that is based on services
18:01:25 <cheater99> not on delivery
18:01:27 <oklopol> ais523: see in a perfect world, everyone has an interesting job for which they don't get payed, and also work at mcdonalds.
18:01:30 <ais523> cheater99: the contract wouldn't exist
18:01:39 <cheater99> wtf are you talking about right now
18:01:45 <ais523> oklopol: heh, that's a great parody of cheater99's argument
18:01:57 <cheater99> my contract wouldn't exist if there was no copyright?
18:02:04 <ais523> cheater99: what is your day job?
18:02:11 <Sgeo> That sounds like an elliott world
18:02:17 <oklopol> ais523: it's a parody of all copyright haters' arguments, but i'm sure i just understand their arguments wrong.
18:02:18 <cheater99> writing software
18:02:31 <ais523> and why does your company pay you to do that?
18:02:40 <cheater99> they pay me for the "writing".
18:02:54 <cheater99> they pay because i come in at 9 am, i do what's asked of me, and leave at 5 pm.
18:03:03 <cheater99> it's just like laying bricks.
18:03:03 <ais523> cheater99: no, you have cause and effect backwards
18:03:05 <elliott> ais523: Why are you feeding the moron and/or troll?
18:03:09 <ais523> you do /that/ because they pay you to
18:03:11 <cheater99> no, i haven't
18:03:13 <oklopol> well, this is pretty exactly what elliott told me years ago, but maybe i understood slightly wrong back then, too, and, well, elliott was pretty stupid back then :)
18:03:19 <oklopol> *pretty much
18:03:20 <elliott> You're saying the same things over and over again.
18:03:28 <elliott> oklopol: actually this is nothing like anything i've ever said :)
18:03:33 <elliott> i wasn't as stupid as i seemed, just terrible at explanation
18:03:42 <ais523> elliott: you're right, he's trying to make you look bad by agreeing with you and then defending the argument really badly
18:03:51 <ais523> sort-of like a strawman, just with multiple people involved
18:03:58 <cheater99> ais523: now you've gone off on a tangent
18:04:23 <ais523> cheater99: IRC channels aren't limited to a single subject
18:04:26 <elliott> ais523: (or he's just stupid)
18:04:28 <cheater99> ais523: you make a lot of assertions without basing them in any sort of logical reasoning
18:04:32 <ais523> if you can't participate in multiple channels at once, you need more practice
18:04:33 <elliott> I have no idea what he said.
18:04:43 <ais523> *multiple conversations at once
18:04:48 <cheater99> ais523: there's no reason to be derogatory
18:04:49 <elliott> ais523: He'd have to be pretty dedicated to being casually stupid all the time to be a troll.
18:05:03 <oklopol> elliott: i told you i wanted to be a programmer, and that would be harder without the concept of copyright (back then it was slightly less common for companies to release open stuff and still somehow get moneys afaik), you told me you yourself are just gonna get a real job, and do the programming for free, as should others.
18:05:04 <ais523> elliott: I suppose so
18:05:20 <cheater99> elliott: i find it funny that you have to resort to denigrating people
18:05:33 <elliott> oklopol: no i didn't
18:05:38 <elliott> oklopol: i was probably hallucinating, if i did say that
18:05:39 <cheater99> elliott: but i guess if that helps you get by in your life, there's not much that can be done about it
18:05:39 <ais523> cheater99: you weren't even in an argument with him!
18:05:56 <elliott> ais523: Oh, just put him on /ignore like everyone else already.
18:05:59 <cheater99> ais523: yes. and he started attacking me for no reason.
18:06:08 <ais523> elliott: my /ignore threshhold is /really/ high
18:06:14 <ais523> (it has been met on occasion, though)
18:06:20 <ais523> (although not by cheater99)
18:06:30 <oklopol> elliott: or i've dreamt the whole conversation, would've be the first time that happened
18:06:30 <cheater99> elliott: your problem is that you think everyone is like you. you're one of the few if not the only person to have me on ignore here.
18:06:34 <oklopol> *wouldn't
18:06:43 <elliott> ais523: If you keep talking to him I'll probably ignore you temporarily until you stop; XChat can't ignore mentions of names...
18:07:01 <ais523> oklopol: yesterday I dreamt I'd overslept and woken up really late
18:07:01 <cheater99> ais523: so, coming back to the original conversation: why would my job not exist if there were no copyright?
18:07:13 <elliott> i did that, except it wasn't a dream
18:07:17 <elliott> what a coincidence
18:07:19 <ais523> cheater99: let's take this to #esoteric-offtopic
18:07:31 <cheater99> ais523: it's not like this place is ever on topic
18:08:00 <elliott> Offtopic stuff goes in #esoteric :p
18:08:00 <ais523> I know, it was mostly to carry it on without disturbing the regulars
18:08:13 <ais523> but I was pretty sure the channel existed already
18:08:18 <cheater99> ais523: i see no reason to move the conversation somewhere else. if you're annoyed by elliott's interjections, you just have to accept that he's childish, and then it's fine.
18:08:33 <elliott> #esoteric-stupid
18:08:40 <ais523> cheater99: I'm not annoyed by them; it's a reverse, I'm trying not to annoy /him/, with something which is, after all, not the purpose of the channel
18:08:47 <oklopol> "<ais523> oklopol: yesterday I dreamt I'd overslept and woken up really late" <<< is this uncommon for you?
18:08:51 <elliott> <ais523> cheater99: I'm not annoyed by them; it's a reverse, I'm trying not to annoy /him/, with something which is, after all, not the purpose of the channel
18:08:52 <elliott> this is confusing
18:08:55 <oklopol> that's like the most boring kind of dream :D
18:09:17 <ais523> oklopol: I do dream of waking up and getting on with my life occasionally
18:09:26 <cheater99> ais523: he'll choose to get annoyed at anything, randomly.
18:09:32 <ais523> but normally when I do I wake up at the proper time and go through the motions
18:09:37 <elliott> `revert
18:09:38 <HackEgo> Done.
18:09:45 <elliott> `quote 262
18:09:46 <HackEgo> 262|s/money/people
18:09:54 <elliott> ugh, revert is brokena gain
18:09:56 <elliott> *broken again
18:09:59 <cheater99> ais523: the best way to handle childish people is to ignore it when they spit out the sucker and start waahing
18:10:02 <ais523> cheater99: that statement is very unlike ehird, to me; there are things that annoy ehird, but they certainly aren't chosen at random, and that's quite a character slur
18:10:18 <oklopol> ais523: that also happens to everybody. it's when you don't know which stuff happened in a dream and which stuff didn't when you're in trouble
18:10:34 <elliott> 09:59:08 <cheater99> ais523: i don't want to read anything written by losers who can't even sustain themselves
18:10:34 <elliott> 09:59:13 <cheater99> ais523: cruel but true
18:10:38 <ais523> oklopol: I do, but only after I wake up
18:10:39 <elliott> wow, he really *is* stupid.
18:10:54 <ais523> while I'm asleep, I don't know the difference
18:11:00 <cheater99> ais523: notice he started this conversation, but then when i started talking with you he decided i shouldn't be taking part, so he started his interjections
18:11:11 <cheater99> ais523: that's just a childish social tactic, why are you giving in?
18:11:12 <elliott> ais523: I'll note that cheater99 has this cycle of being faux saccharine "nice" to me for no real reason, acting offended when I disregard him because he's stupid and irritating, and then switching to being stupid and irritating.
18:11:14 <ais523> cheater99: no, I started the conversation
18:11:17 <elliott> Period of silence, restart.
18:11:33 <cheater99> ais523: you're right. i saw that he was one of the first people to join it, though.
18:11:45 <oklopol> ais523: well of course you don't know what's dream and what's not *in the dream*, otherwise the dream would become lucid
18:12:21 <oklopol> but when you're awake, whatever you think is actually dream should certainly be exactly what has been a dream.
18:12:48 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:13:15 <cheater99> ais523: the fact doesn't change that he's making a mess right now just because he doesn't like me. since i have no idea why that is, i have just decided to start ignoring this part of his behaviour.
18:13:37 -!- wareya has joined.
18:14:00 <elliott> 10:06:30 <cheater99> elliott: your problem is that you think everyone is like you. you're one of the few if not the only person to have me on ignore here.
18:14:02 <cheater99> ais523: like, he was friendly to me for some time, and then he totally swayed to the other pole and got really pissed off for no reason that i know of. then he started ignoring me and/or insulting me.
18:14:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover and Vorpal don't exist, for one.
18:14:08 <elliott> Well-known fact.
18:14:30 <oklopol> another well-known fact, people can't converse through text
18:15:09 <elliott> absolutely... err what
18:15:18 <cheater99> ais523: when i asked him why, he just wouldn't answer, choosing to be hateful and childish instead of telling me what annoyed him and trying to even things out.
18:15:36 <cheater99> ais523: so, here's why i think he just starts hating things and/or people at random.
18:17:13 <elliott> cheater99: actually, it's the fact that it's fairly hard to tell whether someone's a troll or just stupid, so I erred on the side of caution until you came out with your ridiculous glob of incomprehensible sexism that tipped me off.
18:17:32 <elliott> (it's actually both)
18:17:47 <cheater99> "ridiculous glob of incomprehensible sexism" what?
18:18:13 <oklopol> women are stupider than men, but they compensate by being hotter
18:18:41 <elliott> oklopol tries so desperately hard to get an ignore from me, but he never will
18:18:46 <oklopol> :(
18:18:54 <oklopol> but i really think that!
18:19:46 <cheater99> elliott: you're just trying hard to find any sort of thing that bothers you in me, to the point of blowing up small issues or making things up
18:19:53 <oklopol> on average, my experience is they are a lot stupider, with the rather limited measures of intelligence i possess
18:20:50 <elliott> i'd say it's more that there's social pressure for women to act stupid but whatever
18:21:20 <oklopol> well i'm not claiming that's not the reason
18:21:27 <cheater99> elliott: some time ago you've decided i'm the "enemy", and now you'll do anything you can to prove that to yourself, because it's easier to go back to your old ways, than to admit you might have to change your pre-conceptions
18:21:49 <Sgeo> Someone actually submitted something to /r/esolangs
18:21:51 <cheater99> elliott: which is childish, hence i stopped caring
18:21:51 <Sgeo> WTF?
18:22:00 <oklopol> in fact by intelligence, i may just mean the amount of interest for math :D
18:22:06 <cheater99> Sgeo: what have they submitted?
18:22:14 <cheater99> oklopol: my maths course was 95% women
18:22:38 <oklopol> about 50% are women in our dep
18:22:42 <oklopol> maybe more
18:23:01 <oklopol> 95%? cool
18:23:03 <cheater99> so how can you say women are less interested than men?
18:23:06 <Sgeo> Some befunge-93 interpreter
18:23:16 <cheater99> Sgeo: ah
18:23:24 <cheater99> Sgeo: ... does it work? :D
18:23:53 <oklopol> cheater99: because among the best ones, at least 60% are men
18:24:05 <Sgeo> Have no idea, haven't tried it, but the idea of activity on /r/esolangs makes me lol
18:24:09 <cheater99> oklopol: ah.. but that's not really interest, but proficiency..
18:24:18 <ais523> oklopol: personally, I blame it on the education system
18:24:29 <ais523> people tend to assume that women are bad at math and so don't teach them properly
18:24:47 <oklopol> cheater99: right, so maybe my measure of intelligence also takes proficiency to account. also, i may just be sexist.
18:25:01 <cheater99> oklopol: you monster
18:25:03 <cheater99> :D
18:25:16 <cheater99> ais523: yeah, i've seen that quite a lot..
18:25:41 <oklopol> ais523: that's a very common argument
18:25:58 <oklopol> and i certainly do not claim there's any sort of difference between the brains of men and women
18:27:00 <oklopol> i don't really believe people's brains have much difference anyway, it's all about interest & dedication.
18:27:38 <oklopol> which i believe is mostly environment
18:28:36 <oklopol> also the environment/genetics issue is hilarious, every now and then there's a new study that says "turns out it's all X, no Y" with X != Y being the two in any order
18:29:14 <oklopol> maybe that'd be fixed if i knew which sources were reliable and which are not
18:30:18 <oklopol> actually i don't care about any of this very much, i have a tunnel to dig
18:30:53 <oklopol> cheater99: seen the argument or the assuming
18:31:13 <cheater99> oklopol: not sure what you mean, can you rephrase?
18:31:25 <oklopol> cheater99: you've seen that quite a lot, what have you seen
18:31:42 <cheater99> the assuming
18:31:49 <oklopol> right, just checking
18:32:27 <oklopol> i tend to try to teach stuff to women because i love talking about math, but i don't try to teach men that much because men are utterly uninteresting objects
18:32:36 <cheater99> "people tend to X" /\ "i've seen that a lot" => "i've seen X done a lot"
18:32:54 <cheater99> oklopol: so true!
18:32:57 <oklopol> you can't have sex with them, so why talk to them or teach them
18:33:08 <cheater99> oklopol: after my first year in maths, i went to do physics as a second course
18:33:21 <cheater99> oklopol: i was giving a lot of house help :p
18:33:43 <oklopol> i thought you were gay
18:33:49 <oklopol> .D
18:33:51 <oklopol> :D
18:34:07 <cheater99> why? :P
18:34:13 <oklopol> i don't really know.
18:34:17 <oklopol> or remember.
18:34:45 <cheater99> naw, i'm not
18:34:57 <cheater99> but i can pretend to if it makes you feel better around me, sweetheart
18:35:02 <cheater99> :D
18:35:23 <oklopol> i'd love that, augur is so absently these days.
18:35:52 <oklopol> i should do some minecraft now
18:36:10 <cheater99> hm
18:36:41 <cheater99> enjoy
18:36:51 <oklopol> it's not so much that i actually want to have sex with every woman i talk to. it's more like if i plant a tree, i'll feel good about myself even though i'll never see it again, but if i planted a tree in another universe, that'd feel just pointless.
18:37:35 <oklopol> well i do want to have sex with every woman i talk to, in the sense that i'd love for life to be just one big math orgy.
18:38:08 <oklopol> but in the sense of actually trying to get in people's pants in this social context, not so much
18:40:11 <oklopol> also in this ideal world i'm bisexual for convenience
18:41:25 <cheater99> lol
18:41:33 <oklopol> erm so i found my first lave
18:41:35 <oklopol> ehm
18:41:37 <oklopol> *love
18:41:39 <oklopol> actually
18:41:40 <oklopol> *lava
18:41:45 <oklopol> and
18:41:53 <oklopol> it's starting to rise, does it rise forever?
18:42:05 <elliott> oklopol: you want to get rid of that. try water.
18:42:20 <oklopol> but do i have to quickly block that leak
18:42:37 <oklopol> also do i get obsidian when lava meets water
18:43:28 <oklopol> also i just reached bedrock so maybe i'll just dig somewhere else
18:43:53 <elliott> oklopol: bedrock is not always level 0 fwiw
18:44:17 <oklopol> i guessed that, but so there is a level 0
18:44:21 <oklopol> i didn't actually know that
18:44:23 <elliott> oklopol: "Obsidian is a deep purple block that was first released into that game at version 0.30. Obsidian may be found on rare occasions, when there is flowing Water and still Lava nearby. Obsidian is created when flowing water hits a lava spring; when a water spring and a lava spring collide it creates cobblestone."
18:44:32 <elliott> oklopol: there's also a level infinity (128)
18:44:37 <elliott> oklopol: 64 above sea level
18:45:13 <oklopol> this i knew, but for some reason i wasn't sure 0 or -127 would be ununderable.
18:45:26 <oklopol> i probably should've been sure about that
18:45:48 <cheater99> oklopol is 25: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/11/national_geographics_photograp.html
18:46:25 <cheater99> actually, also on 24!
18:46:34 <oklopol> having lied about my age all this time would explain my constantly getting my age wrong
18:46:49 <cheater99> "25" is the number of the photo.
18:47:03 <elliott> oklopol: how old are you actually
18:47:06 <oklopol> yeah sorry, opens slowly
18:47:29 <cheater99> oklopol: my family shall seek revenge from your family for centuries!
18:51:16 <cheater99> oklopol: like the lava pic? :O
18:52:01 <oklopol> i liked it lot.
18:55:39 <cheater99> i can't believe i'm doing this
18:55:53 <cheater99> this room is fairly cold, have a wild guess what i'm using to warm it up
19:01:08 * cheater99 has just carried in a huge CRT
19:01:34 <cheater99> i'm sure that'll make it nice and cozy warm in here
19:01:56 <Sgeo> YAY DS WORKS ON WIN7
19:02:21 <cheater99> ds?
19:02:34 <Sgeo> Docking Station
19:02:43 <cheater99> great
19:02:48 <cheater99> what laptop?
19:03:18 <oklopol> so what about those blocks that look like stone with small lava bubbles in them
19:03:25 <elliott> oklopol: wat
19:03:31 <Sgeo> cheater99, how is that relevant?
19:03:37 <oklopol> what are those
19:03:55 <cheater99> Sgeo: it's a tangent topic
19:04:35 <oklopol> more precisely, should i hit it with my pickaxe, or will there be lava
19:04:49 <Sgeo> Is lava a bad thing?
19:04:58 <oklopol> yes
19:05:12 <cheater99> then hit it
19:05:12 <elliott> oklopol: screenshot
19:05:13 <cheater99> :D
19:05:18 <elliott> (F1+F2, then it's in wherever minecraft saves are)
19:05:21 <elliott> or just... press screenshot
19:05:23 <elliott> http://imgur.com/
19:05:35 <elliott> or
19:05:36 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Blocks
19:05:39 <elliott> oklopol: which is it
19:05:49 <elliott> oklopol: Redstone Ore?
19:05:54 <elliott> oklopol: if so, that's good and you want it.
19:05:58 <elliott> oklopol: it's what makes circuits
19:06:30 <oklopol> ohh
19:06:52 <oklopol> see i was sure it had to do with lava, so i just checked the lava page :)
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19:41:56 <oklopol> elliott: btw ofc i mined that with a stone axe :D
19:42:08 <oklopol> (found more tho)
19:42:20 <elliott> oklopol: you should buy it so you can come to the multiplayer world
19:42:36 <elliott> think of it as an ENTRANCE FEE!
19:43:01 <oklopol> i'm planning to, i just can't do it before i get my credit card, which is on monday
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19:43:56 <elliott> oklopol: you can use MY ACCOUNT (no)
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19:44:17 <oklopol> yay diamond
19:44:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, you need iron axe for that
19:44:58 <elliott> hey ineiros there's unofficial custom server software for alpha
19:45:08 <oklopol> i know, learned to check before picking from that redstone blunder.
19:45:09 <cheater99> oklopol: can i join you in minecraftism?
19:45:20 <elliott> they probably have stupid stuff like health though
19:45:22 <oklopol> cheater99: yes, what do you mean?
19:45:22 <cheater99> oklopol: meaning, would i be able to join your server?
19:45:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, redstone is quite common. Unlike diamond
19:45:28 <oklopol> i don't have a server.
19:45:40 <elliott> "Adv. Physics: Does the server have advanced physics like water?"
19:45:48 <cheater99> pure misconception. all 3d games are client-server based.
19:46:05 <Vorpal> elliott, link to this page?
19:46:07 <oklopol> Vorpal: saw my first gold, redstone and diamond withing 10 blocks of each other
19:46:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, happens sometimes. Rare though
19:46:29 <oklopol> well i may have seen gold before and confused with that other thing, because i recall occasionally that other thing gave me nothing
19:46:45 <Vorpal> oklopol, "other thing" being iron?
19:46:53 <oklopol> probably
19:46:57 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Alpha_Custom_Server_List
19:47:09 <elliott> Vorpal: mineserver has such advanced physics as WATER so loks like the most viable option
19:47:15 <oklopol> yeah iron
19:47:25 <elliott> "Currently in (early) development. (Alpha stage) Server still lacks some critical features and should be only used for testing."
19:47:53 <cheater99> oklopol: is it possible to set up a server for people to play on?
19:48:05 <cheater99> or is it like only servers provided by the game dev?
19:49:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, you want that definitely
19:49:20 <cheater99> heheh: http://twitpic.com/1xavz
19:52:41 <oklopol> cheater99: i know the least about this game on this channel
19:52:49 <oklopol> but yeah anyone can put up a server why not
19:52:55 <cheater99> oh ok
19:53:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, need lot of RAM
19:53:05 <cheater99> oklopol: and you're wrong, i know even less!
19:53:10 <oklopol> i could probably put up a server you ppl could join, i assume the server thing that came with the torrent is some hacked thingie
19:53:15 <Vorpal> oklopol, it complains with less than 2 GB for itself
19:53:16 <Vorpal> iirc
19:53:33 <cheater99> is the server windows, or linux?
19:54:01 <oklopol> i don't have a lot of ram
19:54:16 <oklopol> and i didn't mean i could do it right now or anything, just in theory
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19:55:12 <cheater99> yeah
19:59:32 <oklopol> half the things i carry are pickaxes
19:59:39 <oklopol> i seriously wish they'd stack
20:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Stone or wood?
20:00:12 <oklopol> stone
20:00:28 <oklopol> all i do is pick
20:02:16 <elliott> 11:45:48 <cheater99> pure misconception. all 3d games are client-server based.
20:02:18 <elliott> Minecraft isn't.
20:02:34 <elliott> also, you have to buy the game to connect to any server, the server oklopol has is downloadable from the website for free :p
20:03:31 <Sgeo> Awesome things said by me on IRC
20:03:38 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I'm wondering if I accidentally killed her
20:05:15 <cheater99> http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=midibox_pokey < want
20:05:29 <ais523> cheater99: well, that pattern certainly doesn't extend to 4D games
20:05:34 <ais523> no client/server architecture in adanaxis
20:05:50 <cheater99> i've never played adanaxis
20:06:07 <ais523> cheater99: just because you haven't played a game doesn't mean it doesn't exist
20:06:47 <cheater99> ais523: just because you didn't notice i was making a comical generalization doesn't mean cows are green
20:06:54 * Sgeo downloads
20:07:17 <Sgeo> There's a client/server architecture in Enigma
20:07:19 <elliott> "I'm wrong? Oh, uh, it was a joke. Ha ha. ha."
20:07:35 <cheater99> ais523: there should be a game that takes place in the Monster group
20:07:56 <Sgeo> Which is weird because it's a single-player game, but last I asked, it was to ensure good design
20:08:04 <oklopol> :D
20:08:28 <Sgeo> Is the demo feature-limited, or time-limited?
20:08:58 <oklopol> i was thinking there should be a game where you can explore cayley graphs, you always see some sort of 3d projection or your local neighborhood
20:09:24 <elliott> Sgeo: demo of what
20:09:25 <elliott> Sgeo: minecraft?
20:09:33 <elliott> it has no demo
20:09:36 <elliott> Sgeo: adanaxis?
20:09:42 <ais523> Sgeo: which Enigma, there are at least three games called that
20:09:59 <ais523> (no doubt you're going to mention one I don't know now...)
20:10:28 <oklopol> you could give the presentation of the group, of course kind of hard to show the correct neighborhood, and undecidable in general, but it would be fun if it'd worked even for simple graphs
20:12:12 <cheater99> oklopol: yes, and your movement has to conform to some sort of n>3-dimensional vector field
20:12:17 <cheater99> :D
20:13:23 <Sgeo> elliott, adanaxis for the demo thing
20:13:28 <Sgeo> ais523, the one with the marble
20:13:28 <elliott> Sgeo: it's Free
20:13:35 <elliott> Sgeo: you're downloading the wrong thing
20:13:56 <oklopol> cheater99: i was thinking just discrete jumps from u to u * generator_i :)
20:14:06 <Sgeo> elliott, o.O?
20:14:14 <cheater99> oklopol: oh, like in a chess game?
20:14:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Care to restate that but with more.... meaning?
20:14:30 <Sgeo> elliott, "wrong thing"?
20:14:41 <elliott> you're downloading the demo of it from when it was non-Free
20:14:43 <oklopol> kinda, except you have to do some sort of weird zooming when the group is not commutative
20:15:01 <oklopol> or monoid, but might be a bit annoying
20:15:10 <oklopol> (because it means not being able to come back)
20:15:36 <oklopol> (in case someone is listening but didn't know that, which i find unlikely)
20:15:52 <Sgeo> elliott, is there a Windows Free version? I just see a Linux/GPL version on the site that's free (as in both)
20:16:36 <elliott> Sgeo: dunno, use linux
20:18:14 <oklopol> okay redstone is everywhere when you're down low
20:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It is.
20:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It's more common than iron ore, at least in the tunnel to Mt. Hoover.
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20:23:50 <oklopol> making wooden tools wouldn't make much sense since wood is tons harder to get
20:23:53 <oklopol> than stone
20:26:11 <elliott> if(x) then(y) else(z) -- here, consequent=y and antecedent=z right?
20:26:13 <elliott> *z, right?
20:26:40 <oklopol> *x
20:28:13 <oklopol> z is nothingquent
20:28:24 <oklopol> or is it *guent
20:29:04 <oklopol> erm so if i happen to dig up into a big pool of water, will it fill my cave an kill me?
20:29:15 <oklopol> because i have absolutely no idea where i am...
20:30:38 <oklopol> heh, i reached surface at the side of a mountain, huge fall
20:34:27 <Sgeo> It just now occurs to me why Adanaxis is called Adanaxis
20:34:51 <elliott> just realised now
20:34:51 <elliott> lol
20:35:56 <oklopol> i only realized it after you said that
20:36:05 <oklopol> i thought it was just a fun name
20:36:10 <Sgeo> I'm seriously the first to get a joke?
20:36:20 <Sgeo> I think I saw a pig flying
20:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god.
20:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> That one's awful.
20:37:19 <Sgeo> It's the sort of name I might come up with.. except I'd spell it in a more obvious way
20:37:28 <Sgeo> And probably dashes
20:37:56 <Sgeo> SGU time now that it's on Hulu finally
20:38:09 <oklopol> lucky bastard
20:38:22 <oklopol> (hulu doesn't work outside us)
20:38:55 <oklopol> so umm
20:39:15 <oklopol> what's the best way to kill monsters if you have such a lag there's no hope in actual combat :\
20:40:16 <Sgeo> Play a roguelike instead
20:40:56 <oklopol> you mean dwarf fortress?
20:41:04 <oklopol> i'm planning to try that at some point
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20:41:15 <oklopol> but i don't like the physics of those games
20:41:17 <elliott> oklopol: just avoid monsters
20:41:18 <elliott> like a pussy
20:41:29 <oklopol> that's what i do until i find a cave
20:41:39 * Sgeo personally doesn't consider DF to be a roguelike
20:41:39 <oklopol> if i find a cave i have to see what's in there.
20:41:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: then your suggestion is pretty stupid
20:41:57 <oklopol> because i don't like that whole genre
20:42:07 <oklopol> rpg
20:42:12 <Sgeo> You were talking about lag
20:42:16 <oklopol> right
20:42:29 <Sgeo> Roguelikes don't have lag that prevent you from successfully fighting monsters
20:42:35 <Sgeo> It wasn't a serious suggestion
20:42:48 <oklopol> you don't have to assume i'm going to attack you
20:42:52 <oklopol> i misunderstood, sry.
20:44:13 <Sgeo> What's the appropriate response to "sorry" when I was never seriously offended?
20:44:31 <oklopol> not thinking of a response at all
20:44:37 <oklopol> i think
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21:08:01 <ais523> Sgeo: marble enigma is available for Windows at http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/download.html#stable
21:08:08 <ais523> for free, etc
21:08:35 <oklopol> i killed it!
21:08:41 <oklopol> that was fucking intense
21:08:53 <oklopol> inTENse i tell ya
21:09:11 <ais523> Sgeo: I think a realtime roguelike is entirely plausible
21:09:16 <ais523> it's just that none of the major roguelikes are realtime
21:09:35 <oklopol> are you saying... it wouldn't be like rogue?
21:10:23 <oklopol> have to stop i guess, that was just too excitingh
21:10:25 <oklopol> *exciting
21:10:44 <augur> oko
21:10:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
21:10:48 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
21:10:49 <oklopol> okokokokoko
21:10:50 <oklopol> okokokoko
21:10:51 <oklopol> okokoko
21:10:52 <oklopol> okoko
21:10:53 <oklopol> oko
21:10:53 <oklopol> o
21:10:55 <augur> <3
21:10:58 * augur kisses oklopol
21:10:59 <oklopol> <3
21:11:01 <oklopol> bye ->
21:11:08 <oklopol> (dog)
21:11:20 <augur> o mai
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21:28:08 <Zuu> Anyone knows of 'amateur' web search services?
21:29:29 <Zuu> as in, google search, bing, yahoo search, and so on, except im looking for services that isnt backed by huge companies.
21:36:02 <Sgeo> ais523, I was talking about Enigma having a client/server architecture
21:37:25 <elliott> Zuu: Uh, DuckDuckGo?
21:37:32 <elliott> That uses Yahoo's backend though.
21:37:34 <elliott> Zuu: CUIL
21:39:24 <Zuu> Nice
21:40:07 <oklopol> vjn.fi has a pretty advanced search engine that dfs's the internet
21:40:19 <oklopol> hmm probably not public tho
21:41:09 <Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
21:42:21 <elliott> `addquote <Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
21:42:22 <elliott> lol
21:42:25 <elliott> Zuu has been living under a rock
21:42:28 <elliott> even ais523 knows what cuil is
21:42:35 <HackEgo> 263|<Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
21:42:35 <elliott> oklopol: that sounds fun link me
21:43:11 <Zuu> <_<
21:44:42 <oklopol> nah i'd have to find it first
21:44:54 <Sgeo> Cuil theory, or something else?
21:45:19 <oklopol> Sgeo: read up
21:46:05 <oklopol> elliott: also it's not like that takes more than 5 min to program
21:46:33 <elliott> oklopol: it still sounds amusing
21:46:45 <elliott> Sgeo: You know what Cuil theory is but not Cuil? Seriously?
21:46:47 <Zuu> anyone know of even more amateur search thingies?
21:47:16 <elliott> Zuu: why do you want to know?
21:48:27 <Zuu> do i need a reason?
21:50:12 <elliott> Zuu: well, it would help reuce our confusion.
21:56:46 * Sgeo makes a C:\Users\Sgeo\bin
21:56:50 <Sgeo> And puts it in his path
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22:22:46 <Phantom_Hoover> MY EYES THEY FEEL WEIRD!
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22:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my eyes have healed, but the damage to my thought processes has not.
22:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> My eyes are still set to "Minecraft parse".
22:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> And my fingers to low-accuracy, high speed for typing.
22:52:17 <oklopol> after 10 hours of playing, it was hard not to start digging in the parking lot
22:52:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ditto.
22:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't do Minecraft, kids!
22:52:52 <oklopol> "oh shit it's dark, i better get underground"
22:53:20 <elliott> I would love real life minecraft
22:53:22 <elliott> just
22:53:25 <elliott> punching trees all day
22:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I hope I'm not walking past any trees soon.
22:55:43 <Phantom_Hoover> "****, why are you punching that tree?" "To get wood for a pickaxe!"
22:56:54 <elliott> "why did you dig a pit in our garden" "WHERE IS THE BEDROCK WHERE WHERE WHERE"
22:58:13 <Phantom_Hoover> "I NEED TO FIND COAL"
22:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "MONSTERS WILL EAT ME OTHERWISE"
23:00:12 <elliott> "What the fuck why are you climbing into the mouth of a volcano jesus christ" "IT'S OKAY I HAVE WATER, I'M GOING TO GET OBSIDIAN"
23:00:12 <olsner> you need to find cabbage to feed the monsters, otherwise they eat you
23:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> "Why are you putting those rocks in a pile?" "NEED STAIRS FOR MINE"
23:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "The mine you dug with couple of sticks and planks tied together?" "YES"
23:32:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:40:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:46:53 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to make a website that displays what timezone you're in, based on your IRC times.
23:47:04 <elliott> And therefore what country you're in.
23:47:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:47:15 <elliott> ais523: It will never be GMT :P
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23:54:59 <zzo38> Do you know Hofstadter's BlooP, FlooP, GlooP?
23:55:05 <zzo38> Do you know Hofstadter's Law?
23:55:41 <elliott> yes
23:56:46 <zzo38> Yes which one? Or both?
23:57:07 <elliott> all