00:00:00 Sgeo_: I was just checking. 00:00:23 elliott, well sure. But in general using a better optimising compiler than pcc for libc might be a good idea 00:00:38 Vorpal: " The only optimization added so far is a multiple-register-class graph-coloring register allocator, which may be one of the best register allocators today. Conversion to SSA format is also implemented, but not yet the phi function. Not too difficult though, after that strength reduction is high on the list." --pcc, 2007 00:00:45 Gregor: It's actually 2007. 00:00:48 Vorpal: *"The 00:00:57 hm 00:00:58 Vorpal: Since 2007 it'll have gotten better. pcc isn't some weakling :P 00:00:59 elliott: Probably later than 1990 too. 00:01:06 Gregor: A brief hiatus! 00:01:25 Gregor: Admittedly, it only started running on x86 in 2007 or so when it got picked back up. :-) 00:01:29 Nobody ever bothered to port it before. 00:01:38 It might have been 2006. 00:01:42 elliott, true. But you want the best for code that contains many performance sensitive functions. And that is used by virtually everything 00:01:47 It was imported into OpenBSD and NetBSD in September 2007. 00:01:58 Vorpal: Yes, true. I will probably measure stuff. 00:02:06 elliott, of course you should 00:02:09 elliott: Hm, I thought that the x86 BSDs and AT&T Unix had a pcc-based CC at the time ... I guess not. 00:02:16 Vorpal: Note that it is perfectly possible to use a different libc for a single application, if you really wanted to for some strange reason. 00:02:21 elliott, anyway good luck geting openoffice linked statically 00:02:26 I don't think it is possible 00:02:29 Gregor: Perhaps they did and the code was never released. But I think a version of BSD predating x86 Unix switched to gcc... 00:02:31 elliott: Debian is far superior from Archlinux, because its packages are always from the good ol' days. 00:02:35 Vorpal: I probably won't. 00:02:41 elliott: BTW, VirtualBox's *OpenGL* acceleration "just works". 00:02:42 sshc: You're a moron. 00:02:53 elliott, I need openoffice btw. Too many people at university uses formats like that 00:02:54 elliott: The Direct3D stuff is painful. 00:02:55 You're a mormon. 00:03:01 sshc: (I ran sid the other day and it had packages that were a WEEK old!) 00:03:06 elliott: Especially because you need to install it in safe mode for it to work. 00:03:11 Vorpal: Indeed. (Ever tried AbiWord?) 00:03:17 pikhq: Indeed. 00:03:23 elliott, last I needed to work with a *.xls 00:03:31 Vorpal: Gnumeric can use *.xls :P 00:03:33 elliott, and the day before that a *.ppt 00:03:51 Vorpal: Okay, for that you need OpenOffice. 00:03:55 elliott, indeed 00:03:58 What about LibreOffice? 00:03:59 Vorpal: The solution is to send the next person who sends you one a bill for Microsoft Office. 00:04:06 Vorpal: Maybe that'll give the fuckers a clue. 00:04:15 Vorpal: Sgeo_ actually made a pertinent remark that it'll be LibreOffice I package. 00:04:18 Seeing as OpenOffice is dead :P 00:04:27 elliott, well, what presentation program on linux then? 00:04:32 elliott, I use go-openoffice 00:04:33 (oh, and, of course, don't actually buy Office with it; instead, get a new computer.) 00:04:33 elliott, hm 00:04:38 Vorpal: OpenOffice died. It's now called LibreOffice. 00:04:44 elliott, heh 00:04:48 elliott, when? 00:04:58 Vorpal: (tl;dr Oracle took over Sun, OpenOffice devs went "NO FUCK THAT", created The Document Foundation to develop LibreOffice which is OpenOffice.) 00:05:10 interesting 00:05:14 hm 00:05:19 Vorpal: (Then Oracle kicked all the relevant people (everyone) off the OO.o council.) 00:05:33 Technically, OO.o exists still. However, everyone but Oracle has gone "fuck you". 00:05:35 On September 28, 2010, some members of the OpenOffice.org Project formed a new group called The Document Foundation, and made available a rebranded fork of OpenOffice.org, provisionally named LibreOffice. The Foundation stated that it will coordinate and oversee the development of LibreOffice. Oracle was invited to become a member of the Document Foundation, and was also asked to donate the OpenOffice.org brand to the project.[39] 00:05:41 elliott, anyway, I have been using this variant: http://go-oo.org/ 00:05:44 Vorpal: "Go-oo improvements are being merged in LibreOffice. Improvements done in other forks are expected to be incorporated as well.[43][44]" 00:05:48 Vorpal: Ubuntu uses Go-oo, FWIW. 00:05:57 elliott, yes I know 00:06:01 (that it does) 00:06:02 Vorpal: The reason Go-oo stuff wasn't in before is because Sun were being dicks about it. 00:06:03 elliott, hm nice 00:06:07 * Sgeo_ misread that as "Then Oracle killed" 00:06:08 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:06:23 "Canonical, Novell and Red Hat plan to include LibreOffice in forthcoming versions of their operating systems.[2]" 00:06:43 in other words they've at least tried to turn the tables? 00:06:54 gm|lap: pretty much 00:07:03 elliott, seems libreoffice is "beta" 00:07:12 Vorpal: It's not really beta :P 00:07:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:07:17 They just haven't made "1.0" yet. 00:07:23 elliott, yes I was a bit surprised at that 00:07:32 Vorpal: Anyway, Kitten will package most stuff. But of course the priority is stuff that doesn't suck. 00:07:49 Vorpal: It's forked from the OO.o development tree, rather than the latest version. 00:07:57 elliott, indeed. I should install some package you won't ever package 00:08:03 just to annoy you 00:08:14 ooh. php. But wait, I don't want that. 00:08:19 no the price would be too large 00:08:20 Vorpal: You are free to run the few commands it'll take to create a Kitten package from that and I will probably maintain it :P 00:08:30 He'll probably package PHP eventually. 00:08:41 mysql? :P 00:08:51 Vorpal: BTW, compilations will probably be done on my local box to start with. By the time it becomes relevant, I'll hopefully have a better box by then. 00:08:51 elliott, so no PSOX, then 00:09:16 Vorpal: I'm sure 4 cores at ~2.4 GHz and 12 GiB of RAM should suffice to build everything with *reasonable* speed :P 00:09:44 pikhq: I *might* package PHP. :P 00:09:47 elliott, like by the time you want to build libreoffice? 00:10:00 elliott, mysql? 00:10:02 Vorpal: Yeah, y'know what? You're the official LibreOffice maintainer. What an honour! 00:10:14 elliott, alas my system is unable to compile it :P 00:10:17 Vorpal: MySQL I... will probably avoid packaging because it's Oracle. 00:10:25 Vorpal: (I could avoid packaging it because it sucks, but Oracle is a better excuse.) 00:10:29 elliott, hm need to replace virtualbox now that it is oracle... 00:10:40 but no good replacement. (qemu just doesn't cut it) 00:10:44 Vorpal: I think VirtualBox can stay until it's forked or something X-P 00:11:01 Vorpal: But MySQL has perfectly cromulent alternatives already. 00:11:17 elliott, yeah, thing is I need features from the closed variant. Of course they will probably be implemented soon once it is forked 00:11:25 Indeed :P 00:11:36 * pikhq groans 00:11:39 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers krecipe asking whether to use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. No end-user of a recipe program should need to make such a decision 00:11:40 pikhq, what? 00:11:43 Vorpal: That's an example of why the "Open Free!" / "Better Version $$$" model sucks. 00:11:46 Oracle apparently renamed StarOffice to "Oracle Open Office". 00:11:50 elliott, indeed. 00:11:55 Vorpal: The corporation can hold back development because it doesn't align with their profits. 00:12:08 elliott, open free / pay for support works much better 00:12:10 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers krecipe asking whether to use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. No end-user of a recipe program should need to make such a decision 00:12:12 welcome to KDE! 00:12:13 Yes, they make OpenOffice.org and Oracle Open Office. 00:12:18 So much stupid. 00:12:26 Vorpal: Indeed! Now suddenly your software is so intuitive that nobody needs support any more. 00:12:31 pikhq, what was star office? 00:12:31 elliott, I... are you telling me that that wasn't just that one program? 00:12:32 Whoops! You have an incentive to make it need support. 00:12:34 And it was years ago 00:12:38 wasn't it just an old name for openoffice? 00:12:42 before it became open? 00:12:51 Vorpal: It's also the commercial version of OpenOffice. 00:12:55 heh 00:13:11 elliott, so what did it contain that openoffice didn't? 00:13:14 Vorpal: Star Office:OpenOffice.org::Netscape::Mozilla 00:13:28 pikhq, since when did anyone have to pay for Netscape? 00:13:32 Erm, StarOffice. 00:13:44 Sgeo_: While back. 00:14:05 pikhq, errhm. what does the : count signify? 00:14:15 pikhq, considering that it varies over the line 00:14:17 Vorpal: a:b::c:d 00:14:20 a is to b as c is to d 00:14:21 common notation 00:14:30 elliott, he used *two* the last time 00:14:35 Simple typo :P 00:14:38 right 00:14:44 Normally the :: would be set off by spaces. 00:14:45 but that means it didn't make much sense 00:14:49 Yuh, typo. 00:15:20 Vorpal si easily confused by tyops1 mahahaha 00:15:28 Sgeo_, no I'm not. 00:15:32 not that sort of typos 00:15:39 Sgeo_: In fact, Netscape has only been a free browser for 12 years. 00:16:02 elliott, btw. did you see that about panorama comic bringing a new meaning to "no forth wall"? 00:16:08 The exact same instant that the source code was released. 00:16:15 Vorpal: Yes. 00:16:32 <3 1/0 <3 T&R 00:16:51 1/0 is not less than three. 00:17:01 elliott, also 5th wall. Would that be when the comic character is not only aware of the author and reader. But aware of that they are just in the mind of the author and have no "free will"? 00:17:03 Vorpal: Anyway, I -- was going to say something in this sentence. 00:17:12 elliott, also 5th wall. Would that be when the comic character is not only aware of the author and reader. But aware of that they are just in the mind of the author and have no "free will"? 00:17:14 ITT 1/0 :P 00:17:20 elliott, 1/0? 00:17:20 http://www.undefined.net/1/0/ 00:17:22 Vorpal: 00:17:30 Nor is it more than three. 00:17:33 (Note: Art gets better.) 00:17:39 oh that one 00:17:49 elliott, yeah, but I meant taken even further 00:17:57 Vorpal: It is hard to take it even further than that :P 00:18:16 Vorpal: Considering at the end the author has convinced himself that the characters actually exist after they themselves doubt it. 00:18:54 Ghanny makes an argument that the author is no more real than they are, iirc 00:18:55 elliott, well, convinced himself in the comic 00:19:02 elliott, we don't know if he did for real 00:19:04 Vorpal: Pretty sure in real life :P 00:19:07 Vorpal: He's crazy enough. 00:19:13 elliott, that would be screwy 00:19:15 Also a monotheist, which shows in a sequence of comics around 300 irritatingly. 00:19:59 Here: http://www.undefined.net/1/0/9/994.gif 00:20:42 Vorpal: Interestingly, GNU coreutils is both one of the things I least want to package and pretty high up the list of things I need to :P 00:20:55 Vorpal: I'll bet anything there's hundreds of dependencies on gsed and gawk in the world. 00:20:58 haha 00:21:10 Vorpal: (Case in point: gmake.) 00:21:11 elliott, but awk is not in coreutils? 00:21:14 GNU make I *must* package :P 00:21:20 Vorpal: Meh, who cares, it's all the same :P 00:21:31 elliott, gmake, gawk and gsed are all outside. Yes you need them though 00:21:38 Vorpal: At least OS X gets by without GNU coreutils, but even then its "make" is gmake. 00:21:40 and probably coreutils too 00:21:48 elliott, Petitus calls the author out on the author pushing his views 00:21:59 Vorpal: Well, OS X gets fine without them. Although iirc some OCaml stuff depended on gsed for some tiny little option (not joking). 00:22:09 Vorpal: I can probably avoid the actual coreutils, though. 00:22:12 Sgeo_: I know. 00:22:18 elliott, you probably need /bin/sh to be bash too 00:22:22 Sgeo_: But nobody seriously challenges him. 00:22:23 elliott, a lot of stuff breaks when it isn't 00:22:26 Vorpal: It isn't on Debian or Ubuntu. 00:22:30 Vorpal: And hasn't been for years. 00:22:46 elliott, yes and it breaks compiling stuff that uses bash syntax in make or configure 00:22:51 elliott, they patch the packages :P 00:22:54 * Sgeo_ needs glowing retinas 00:22:55 to call bash 00:22:55 Vorpal: Used to, but dash is more compatible now. 00:23:00 or to use another syntax 00:23:08 Vorpal: But, uh, I'll probably ship something more compatible than dash. 00:23:09 Vorpal: Said packages need to be patched or raped. 00:23:10 elliott, still happens for me every now and then 00:23:18 elliott: Bourne. 00:23:25 pikhq: lol no :P 00:23:33 elliott: Bash 1? :P 00:23:38 Vorpal: Perhaps Busybox's hush shell or something. 00:23:45 shish! 00:23:50 Vorpal: The default shell will be pdksh, and at least GNU autotools will be satisfied with that. 00:24:02 Vorpal: You can probably use zsh in place of bash most of the time, too. Of course bash will be a package. 00:24:10 Well. It might not actually be pdksh. 00:24:23 Probably one of the portable versions of OpenBSD's ksh, which is based on pdksh. 00:24:25 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Nitpicker. 00:24:39 elliott, I don't like zsh :P 00:24:45 Actually, zsh in place of bash should "just work". Given that it pretends to be bash when argv[0] is bash. 00:24:49 I actually like and use bash 00:24:57 Vorpal: Yes, but it's more bloated than even bash :) 00:25:05 pikhq, it doesn't support esoteric stuff that bash does 00:25:07 Vorpal: zsh is quite nice, if absurdly bloated. 00:25:08 Vorpal: I don't recall bash being hard to build, so it'll probably be in there. 00:25:22 pikhq, there was some weird thing, forgot what 00:25:23 I use bash right now, but I'll just use ksh in Kitten; bash just happens to be Debian's default and I'm lazy :P 00:25:28 elliott: Fortunately, yeah, bash should be installable by your inst. 00:25:29 I haven't even configured it. 00:25:35 pikhq: I'm not using inst for this :P 00:25:38 pikhq: (but yes, it is) 00:25:42 elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt 00:25:42 bash-4.1 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 ruby-1.9.2-p0 00:25:42 CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 zsh-4.3.10 00:25:42 egobf-0.7.1 nasm-2.09.03 Python-2.7 00:25:43 pikhq: zsh too 00:25:53 elliott, inst? 00:25:57 Yes, but that kinda demonstrates that it's at least *sane* to package. 00:25:58 Dear download: Why aren't you done? 00:26:07 Vorpal: You give it a URL to a tarball and it automatically configures, builds, and installs it. 00:26:08 Vorpal: Automated wget&&./configure&&make&&make install 00:26:13 Vorpal: It even works with Perl packages. 00:26:14 pikhq: No. 00:26:14 hm 00:26:16 pikhq: More sophisticated. 00:26:18 You insult my work :P 00:26:27 Also, it uses curl, not wget. 00:26:27 Except better, because elliott is awesome. 00:26:32 Yes. I am the best person ever. 00:26:33 Pretty much. 00:26:36 PRAISE BE UNTO ELLIOTT, GOD OF ALL 00:26:36 In fact you should all give me money. 00:26:38 bash you need to patch. They do a shitload of patches after releases 00:26:39 Right now. 00:26:45 so you need to wget like 10 patches often 00:26:48 elliott: I'll give you all the money in my wallet. 00:26:51 same for readline 00:26:51 Vorpal: It's also meant to be able to take a repository URL :P 00:26:53 pikhq: All $0 of it?! 00:26:57 elliott, hm 00:27:00 elliott: Yes. 00:27:03 Vorpal: I'll ship libedit or whatever the variant of the week is over readline, most likely. 00:27:13 Vorpal: I've used one that was totally compatible, so it's just a matter of finding which one that is. 00:27:16 elliott: And €0 and £0, if you insist. 00:27:17 elliott, bash is rather closesly tied to readline 00:27:27 iirc 00:27:29 Vorpal: True. Well, bash can have readline :P 00:27:45 Vorpal: How stable is bash's repository? 00:27:53 There used to be some... website, a sort of "make your own distro" site 00:27:53 If it's stable, I'll just use that over patching it all the time. 00:28:02 Nitpicker: I think I remember that. Wasn't it terrible? 00:28:34 I'd imagine it's the sort of thing that would be called terrible around here, but I don't think I ever formed a real opinion about it 00:28:45 * Nitpicker vaguely wanted to make a Creatures-themed distro 00:28:47 elliott, what do you mean 00:28:53 Vorpal: Bash's CVS. 00:28:57 Vorpal: How stable is it? 00:29:00 elliott, I have no idea. 00:29:03 elliott, I wouldn't use it 00:29:23 Vorpal: Hey, some projects actually tell you to use CVS over the releases. 00:29:25 Vorpal: e.g. pcc. 00:29:36 elliott, but here is what you need to download and apply: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/bash/bash-4.1-patches/ 00:29:39 :P 00:29:42 just as an example 00:29:49 Vorpal: I like how they're USELESSLY NAMED. 00:29:58 BASH PATCH REPORT 00:29:58 ================= 00:30:01 Dear Chrome download manager: Fuck you in the ass 00:30:05 elliott, at least you know which order to apply them :P 00:30:11 Vorpal: I like how their code is so buggy that they have to patch it 9 times in one release. 00:30:11 elliott: And mplayer. 00:30:17 elliott, hah 00:30:22 Really inspires confidence. 00:30:32 elliott, they tend to patch for rather minor things 00:30:42 Incidentally, if anyone is looking to become more cynical about software, I recommend they make a distribution. 00:30:44 elliott, in fact *any* bug iirc 00:30:45 It's worked wonders fro me! 00:30:46 *for 00:31:14 mplayer's most recent release was done for the sake of distros too afraid of using an SVN release. 00:31:17 pikhq: heh 00:31:19 elliott, anyway 3.2 had like 30+ patches 00:31:21 elliott, this is NOTHING 00:31:24 compared to that 00:31:31 Vorpal: Incidentally, I'll probably not bother shipping OpenSSH at all, because Dropbear has an identical feature set and is much smaller. 00:31:44 elliott, how does it compare to OpenSSH-HPN? 00:31:58 elliott, and I use some rather esoteric features of openssh :P 00:31:59 *When it came out*, they said "Unless you are at least deadly allergic to it, use latest SVN instead." 00:32:04 "A: HPN-SSH is a patch set designed to remove a networking bottleneck in the base OpenSSH code. Removing this bottleneck can improve performance drastically." 00:32:08 elliott, what sort of package manager are you using/ 00:32:17 Vorpal: I doubt Dropbear has the same bottleneck, unless it's the only "obvious" way to do things. 00:32:19 Nitpicker: My own! 00:32:25 Vorpal: Also, name an esoteric feature. 00:32:34 Vorpal: (forwarding does not count as esoteric, it counts as mundane) 00:32:37 Base it on Asylum! [Don't] 00:33:05 elliott, key only login with specific commands run on different pubkeys 00:33:22 Smash the computer you're using right now [Don't] 00:33:34 Vorpal: It can do the former. How do you do the latter with OpenSSH? 00:33:43 * Nitpicker has become self-aware! 00:33:47 Nitpicker: Verily 00:33:51 And I think I've made that "joke" before 00:33:54 elliott, by adding stuff to the authorized_key file 00:34:00 Vorpal: "# Compatible with OpenSSH ~/.ssh/authorized_keys public key authentication" 00:34:11 elliott, fully compatible? 00:34:18 I think so, yes. 00:34:43 You can use ~/.ssh/authorized_keys in the same way as with OpenSSH, just put 00:34:43 the key entries in that file. They should be of the form: 00:34:43 ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAABIwAAAIEAwVa6M6cGVmUcLl2cFzkxEoJd06Ub4bVDsYrWvXhvUV+ZAM9uGuewZBDoAqNKJxoIn0Hyd0Nk/yU99UVv6NWV/5YSHtnf35LKds56j7cuzoQpFIdjNwdxAN0PCET/MG8qyskG/2IE2DPNIaJ3Wy+Ws4IZEgdJgPlTYUBWWtCWOGc= someone@hostname 00:34:45 [...] 00:34:46 NOTE: Dropbear ignores authorized_keys options such as those described in the 00:34:46 OpenSSH sshd manpage, and will not allow a login for these keys. 00:34:49 Vorpal: Perhaps not. 00:34:54 I am not sure what constitutes an "option" here. 00:34:55 elliott, see. Fail :P 00:35:03 elliott, those options would be the ones in question 00:35:14 Vorpal: Yeah, yeah, compile it yourself or have a less crazy setup :P 00:35:18 It does every other thing under the sun. 00:35:24 -!- iGO has joined. 00:35:42 elliott, also what about ~/.ssh/config. I use that to type ssh home instead of ssh foo@bar.dyndns.org -p 1234567 :P 00:35:54 Pretty sure it can do that. Anyway, shut up :) 00:36:21 elliott, anyway I prefer calling it an esoteric setup 00:36:47 Knoppix is esoteric, use that :P 00:36:51 hah 00:36:57 elliott, no it is just stupid :P 00:37:02 elliott, oh also ipsec. I presume you will package strongswan? 00:37:05 Vorpal: Anyway, surely you should be GNU LOYAL? http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/lsh/ 00:37:13 lysator eh? 00:37:25 "Ahh yes, where all the crazies are." 00:37:26 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit). 00:37:34 Vorpal: How difficult is building strongSwan? :P 00:37:54 elliott, I have no idea. I used packages for it. But shoehorning it into your service daemon will be a chore 00:38:00 "No results found for "strongswan sucks"." 00:38:01 Promising. 00:38:08 Vorpal: Not really... 00:38:14 Vorpal: Is there ever a need to *stop* strongswan? 00:38:43 elliott, there is sometimes. Mostly because you need to restart it a *lot* while configuring it 00:38:51 Vorpal: Simple. 00:38:55 elliott, as in, it takes a few hours to get everything working 00:39:02 -!- Nitpicker has changed nick to Sgeo. 00:39:10 Vorpal: Make a service for it; the run script is just the commands to enable it, followed by "coma" or whatever I decide to call the sleep-forever command. 00:39:12 elliott, and sometimes you need to stop it then, because you just cut yourself off from internet :P 00:39:12 DSL is taking a weirdly long amount of time to start 00:39:17 Vorpal: The finish script is just the commands to turn it off. 00:39:18 Vorpal: Done 00:40:24 Vorpal: Now was that so hard? :P 00:40:44 hm 00:40:58 elliott, will you package aiccu? 00:41:04 Vorpal: (If I succumb to you and other evil people's wishes, I'll just put a huge gob of extra code in svmg so it can support start scripts that don't leave a process running around, but it will require donations.) 00:41:12 Like chocolate. 00:41:15 Chocolate will make me do that. 00:41:28 Vorpal: I have a moral objection to packaging anything SixXS makes 00:41:29 elliott, strongswan leave 0-2 running 00:41:34 depending on configuration 00:41:41 leaves* 00:41:46 elliott, strongswan leave 0-2 running 00:41:57 Does killing one of them stop strongswan, by any chance? 00:42:05 Cleanly, that is. 00:42:07 elliott, um. no 00:42:11 Aww. 00:42:13 not cleanly at all 00:42:15 Anyway. 00:42:24 Kill as in SIGINT, btw. 00:42:26 elliott, you will probably break your networking by doing that :P 00:42:36 Vorpal: aiccu looks easy to build 00:42:38 elliott, still you will likely break networking 00:42:39 there's a Makefile right there 00:42:44 elliott, aiccu is 00:43:02 Vorpal: maybe if there's a non-sixxs fork :P 00:43:06 hah 00:43:07 It's the Oracle Policy. 00:43:14 eh 00:43:18 Or should that be Horracle? 00:43:54 elliott, what about gnu smalltalk? :D 00:44:05 Vorpal: Why would you ever want to use that :) 00:44:13 elliott, to annoy you of course 00:44:17 no other reason 00:44:26 Vorpal: I have a feeling you are going to be my favourite user. 00:44:30 elliott, and less cheesy colours than squeak. That is always a plus 00:45:16 * Sgeo isn't quite sure what Vorpal is getting at. Sure, Squeak can look cheesy, but... GNU Smalltalk doesn't exactly have a look 00:45:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:45:20 Or maybe that's the joke 00:45:21 elliott, will you package oracle/sun java? Remember minecraft doesn't seem to work with openjdk 00:45:31 Vorpal: Yes, the sole reason being Minecraft. 00:45:35 Vorpal: In fact, I might just include it in the Minecraft package. 00:45:36 Sgeo, that was part of the joke 00:45:44 Vorpal: "Minecraft. (Also includes the Sun JVM)" 00:45:52 elliott, but minecraft isn't open? ;P 00:46:05 Vorpal: The exception to the openness rule is AWESOME 00:46:10 hm 00:46:18 Vorpal: I wonder if I could somehow package all of Emacs except from ERC, just for you. 00:46:26 elliott, :P 00:46:35 By "fundamentalist", I don't mean Westboro stupidness, or "destroy everyone who disagrees with me" stuff. I mean that I believe in what I see as the "fundamentals" of Christianity: 00:46:35 [...] 00:46:38 # The literal nature of Biblical accounts (meaning that what they say happened actually happened. Including the Creation account. Obviously stuff like Psalms and Revelation is metaphor.) 00:46:40 elliott, you could but it would be quite a chore. And do you want to dig around in elisp? 00:46:43 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO 00:46:48 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL. 00:47:05 "The Bible is 100% ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, unlike what some Christians believe. They would rather pick and choose, but I don't. (Except for those bits I don't like)" 00:47:11 Vorpal: True, no :P 00:47:25 "The Bible is 100% ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, unlike what some Christians believe. They would rather pick and choose, but I don't. (Except for those bits I don't like)" <-- uh, this is a parody right? 00:47:28 it MUST be 00:47:38 I've been running MineCraft exclusively with openjdk-6-jre 6b20-1.9-0ubuntu1 with no issues at all. 00:47:40 Vorpal: It was my rephrasing of: 00:47:44 fizzie, huh 00:47:44 By "fundamentalist", I don't mean Westboro stupidness, or "destroy everyone who disagrees with me" stuff. I mean that I believe in what I see as the "fundamentals" of Christianity: 00:47:45 [...] 00:47:45 # The literal nature of Biblical accounts (meaning that what they say happened actually happened. Including the Creation account. Obviously stuff like Psalms and Revelation is metaphor.) 00:47:51 fizzie: Well, you're luckier than us. 00:47:55 fizzie, I get black screen with openjdk 00:48:00 Vorpal: Wait. That was in browser. 00:48:05 Maybe the download version works with OpenJDK? 00:48:07 fizzie: Also, *Minecraft 00:48:12 Well, isn't Psalms supposed to basically be songs written by some guy? 00:48:13 elliott, no. I only tried downloaded one 00:48:19 elliott, and classic 00:48:21 both of them 00:48:30 elliott, haven't tried alpha in browser 00:48:32 [[Mojang Specifications' Minecraft is a game about survival and building. Presented in first person and available for the Mac and PC, it has quickly become one of those indie darling success stories. In its alpha phase of development, Minecraft has sold over 600,000 copies. It's popular, has a great community, and has generated a lot of positive buzz. The game has also inspired an iOS developer to create his own version of the title, which has si 00:48:32 nce been pulled from the App Store. 00:48:32 The game was called Minecrafted and it hit the App Store at $.99. The App's creator, Trevor Wilkin, claimed in the release information for the game that Minecrafted was "built from the ground up for Apple devices without code or content from the original." However, the game looked and played like Minecraft, and could even connect with legitimate Minecraft servers.]] 00:48:37 It was pulled :P 00:48:56 Well, I'unno, but it works with openjdk both at work and at home. 00:49:18 fizzie, huh 00:49:19 Vorpal: Incidentally, I hope Mojang Specifications is never renamed. 00:49:24 It's such a strange company name! 00:49:29 elliott, true it is 00:49:35 Specifications. They deliver SPECIFICATIONS to the customer. 00:49:38 Of... of code. 00:49:50 elliott, hm... Also "Mojang" is quite confusing too 00:49:56 lawl 00:50:02 elliott, what? 00:50:06 did I miss some joke? 00:50:08 No. 00:50:10 Just at it being confusing. 00:50:24 Seems like your standard arbitrary-meaningless-name to me. 00:50:25 unless it is a pun on "mojäng"... 00:50:27 oh duh 00:50:29 it probably is 00:50:41 What's that mean? 00:50:46 elliott, "thingy" 00:50:54 Thingy Specifications :D 00:50:55 elliott, like "that thingy over there" or such 00:51:02 They specify THINGIES in DETAIL. 00:51:05 like when you don't know or don't remember the name 00:51:15 or such 00:51:31 elliott, yes It is a very confusing name 00:51:37 Why am I getting only 129kB/s? 00:51:46 It does need to be started with "java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp .../Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame" for me though. 00:51:47 Sgeo, on what? 00:51:53 A download 00:51:55 But that's a documented thing. 00:51:57 fizzie: Hey, that's the settings *I* use. BEST BUDDIES. 00:52:07 fizzie: Wait, no it isn't. 00:52:09 exec java -Xmx2048M -Xms1024M -cp "$(dirname "$0")/launcher.jar" net.minecraft.LauncherFrame 00:52:13 I'M MORE HARDCORE THAN YOU 00:52:14 fizzie, huh. I can just run java -Xmx410M -jar Minecraft.jar 00:52:20 (because well, my system is weak) 00:52:25 Vorpal: It's meant to be if you have issues. 00:52:30 So maybe that's what makes it work with Openjddjjddjdkkkk 00:52:34 (1024+512 = total system memory) 00:52:54 Well, I haven't tried to use anything less; those numbers were from somewhere. 00:53:05 and it works fine with 410 MB for max heap 00:53:18 and max stack at whatever is deafault 00:53:32 Vorpal: Oh, and as for what window manager the "default" set will include: no fuckin' clue :P 00:53:46 elliott, you plan to include X in default!? 00:53:50 elliott, or wayland? 00:53:52 Vorpal: (The default set won't be any package or anything silly like that, just what the installer installs the first time. You're expected to be able to manage your own system after that.) 00:53:54 Vorpal: See above line :P 00:54:01 (Away-asleep now, have to wake up in four hours.) 00:54:11 fizzie, cya 00:54:15 elliott, I expect the system to not install X by default 00:54:20 fizzie, saw the minecraft pano above? 00:54:28 Vorpal: You could always tell it to not install X. But there's no real reason not to install it. 00:55:11 elliott, it shouldn't be in default install. How could you then ever hope to claim to not have any remote holes in the default setup for over 5 years ;P 00:55:15 Ugh, I can't find my house since it's way off my spawn point :P 00:55:26 Vorpal: You do realise the default install is just what the installer will give you if you click "Next" a lot? :P 00:55:30 elliott, didn't you mark with torches 00:55:36 elliott, indeed! 00:55:38 I didn't have torches at the time! 00:55:43 elliott, huh 00:55:45 Vorpal: It will probably be compartmentalised so you can untick "X etc." if you want. 00:56:02 elliott, that is why you build a base within viewing distance of the spawn point 00:56:36 Vorpal: (After all, it'll be suitable for servers too.) 00:57:35 elliott, yellow text: "Reference implementation!" 00:57:36 XD 00:57:38 heh 00:57:45 compliant with Minecraft standards 00:57:53 Vorpal: You know, maybe it'll ship with Minecraft 00:57:59 After all, who wouldn't install it? Even on a server. 00:58:31 Vorpal: Thing I will deliberately not package: Apache :P 00:58:40 (httpd, that is) 01:00:59 But I need Apache, ktoaster depends on it! 01:01:22 Vorpal: You'll be happy to hear I'm unlikely to package vim. 01:01:37 (Well, right up until the point that a vim user packages it, which will take approximately 3 seconds.) 01:11:23 On /r/netsec's sidebar: 01:11:24 "/r/SocialEngineering - Free Candy" 01:12:08 Dear /r/SocialEngineering: Damn yo 01:12:09 you 01:12:17 (They made a fake orangered) 01:14:18 G'night; bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb 01:14:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:19:44 Dear Chrome: WHY THE FUCK CAN'T YOU JUST PAUSE DOWNLOADS WHEN YOU EXIT? 01:22:23 I dislike apache too 01:30:00 Sgeo: Use Free Download Manager 01:30:18 * Sgeo is torrenting Linux CDs now 01:30:29 http://goo.gl/TKnBb 01:30:38 I used it to torrent most of my Linux ISOs 01:30:43 Which ones are you downloading? 01:30:54 TLUL, why would I trust some unknown .exe? 01:31:02 http://goo.gl/pbjO 01:31:07 Link to the download site 01:31:23 Best DM I've ever used. 01:32:14 Tip: Don't use OrbitDownloader. 01:33:11 Which Linux ISOs are you downloading, anyway? 01:34:26 Right now, just Kubuntu 10.10 01:34:31 Trying to get OpenSUSE 01:35:29 I have every OpenSUSE ISO I could find on their website 01:35:40 I was bored and decided to use up some bandwidth. 01:36:02 Is 11.3 the latest version still? 01:36:33 I think so 01:36:44 Yeah, looks like it. 01:37:03 I couldn't get it to work in VirtualBox (but I didn't try very hard) so I stuck to Ubuntu 01:52:06 -!- Hiant has joined. 01:54:09 Hello all. I have been pondering a language where control structure is based solely on permissions (aka run read write, ect). Does anyone know if there is an esolang like this already out there? 01:57:35 Seems an entirely unique concept to me. 01:57:48 I'm unsure how such a language could function, though. 02:00:25 Dear SGU trailer coming up right before the episode: 02:00:30 FUCK YOU TO HELL\ 02:00:46 The interpreter/compiler would have a current permission (such as safe, normal, advanced, administrator) would only be able to execute commands at or below its permission level. The same goes with functions. 02:01:03 -!- p_q has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:01:35 pikhq: ^ 02:01:41 interesting... 02:04:08 I would imagine that functions would be able to operate on atoms and other functions, and that their success in doing so is related to the inherent permissions of the function and the access level of the compiler. 02:06:14 This would make it very easy to reach a certain level of obtuseness; simply pepper your code with beyond-permission commands. They would look valid, but would simply be ignored by the compiler. This also makes it possible to have a single program achieve more then one affect, if the compiler is initiated with a different permission level. 02:07:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:07:38 The _compiler_'s permissions? 02:07:39 Hmm 02:07:53 Oh 02:08:00 Not the permissions the compiler has 02:08:06 The permissions set by the compiler 02:08:11 Correct. 02:08:29 The terminology is very...confusing. 02:08:51 A bit of a name-space collision. 02:10:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:11:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:14:19 Holy. @#$%. 02:14:27 At this episode and this season 02:16:27 Another idea I am currently fiddling with is based on bct (bitwise cyclic tag) systems. It operates on a series of hexadecimal digits, one at a time, and executes the commands associated with each. Also, the program may only edit itself, so there are no data strings, just a changing execution string. 02:20:03 -!- zzo38 has set topic: IGNORANCE IS SLAVERY | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 02:22:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:36:38 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]). 02:46:16 -!- Hiant has joined. 02:46:58 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit). 02:49:16 Do you like this?? 02:51:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: IGNORANCE OF MAGICK IS SLAVERY | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 03:02:42 http://sprunge.us/hTEh 03:03:11 Why is Kubuntu telling me to upgrade VirtualBox's BIOS? 03:13:11 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:34:40 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:41:06 * Sgeo wants to try MeeGo 03:42:30 One /11 allocated to china... 03:43:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:44:42 -!- Decarabia has joined. 03:46:39 Too bad I haven't seen breakdown of allocations by RIR... Because at this point of the game, only RIPE and APNIC are relevant... 03:48:24 -!- Slereah has joined. 03:49:48 Well, actually, if LACNIC takes large allocations, it too could allocate relatively soon (and then the final three would be ARIN+LACNIC+APNIC). 03:51:58 Basically, one unexpected /10 from LACNIC could throw the current (ARIN+APNIC+RIPE) scenario, resulting X-day moving something like three weeks earlier... 03:57:22 OpenSUSE actually noticed that I was running in VirtualBox, and just did the right thing 03:57:32 Its Kickoff menu was decently done 03:57:50 The only thing I disliked was the not-easy-for-a-newbie-to-use software installer 03:57:58 It's just a package manager, not dressed up all fancy 04:01:34 * Sgeo installs Kubuntu into a VM 04:01:39 Kubuntu live kind of sucks 04:02:00 Browser said it had cool extensions, yet the sources weren't set up 04:02:03 Among other things 04:02:12 Ugly user-exposed names in Kickoff 04:03:17 No easily-visible easy package manager 04:03:30 That may be a function of being on LiveCD.. or a flawed memory on my part 04:06:26 Ubuntu's in-install slideshow let you go forward and back. Kubuntu's doesn't 04:13:49 Is that a problem to you? 04:14:14 Unless I can search the CD and find where it keeps a copy of the slides, yes 04:16:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rekonq.png Rekonq on GNOME mindboggle 04:16:50 -!- augur has joined. 04:18:10 I'm about to go configure an ancient computer with a Maverick Server installation. 04:18:22 I may install several different display managers just to see what they're like. 04:18:43 I figure if I start with a server install, then I get a fair comparison of all of them since nothing is preconfigured to help one of them out. 04:19:22 Well, presumably, all the Ubuntus use the same repos, so 04:19:33 Some display managers may be better tweaked than others 04:19:53 Actually, I may be utterly mistaken 04:22:25 TLUL: The preconfiguration is part of the package... Unless you intend to compile from source, you're really not going to get anything magically different from using the normal installer. 04:22:46 That's not entirely true. 04:23:25 There won't be many differences, but there will be some. 04:23:31 The Ubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the ubuntu-desktop meta package. 04:23:49 The Kubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the kubuntu-desktop meta package. 04:24:06 The Xubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the xubuntu-desktop meta package. 04:24:08 See a trend? 04:24:23 Yes. 04:24:27 A trend of being incorrect. 04:24:30 ... 04:24:34 What's incorrect about it? 04:24:36 incorrect package names 04:25:38 The funny thing is you're probably looking it up right now. 04:25:50 Despite the fact that you got all of the package names right. 04:25:55 http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/ubuntu-desktop 04:25:59 Now STFU. 04:26:51 Or http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/ubuntu-desktop if you prefer the latest one, rather than the absurdly old one that was the first result on Google. 04:27:30 pikhq, are you telling me I was right? 04:28:08 Sgeo: 'Bout what? 04:28:24 Well, presumably, all the Ubuntus use the same repos, so 04:28:25 Some display managers may be better tweaked than others 04:28:45 Yeah, it's a single distribution with different installers. 04:29:05 Each installer with a distinct default installed package set. 04:29:17 Is there a way to uninstall all dependencies of a package that are not dependencies of a different package? 04:29:48 I think so 04:29:50 Sgeo: That's the apt family's default behavior when you uninstall things. 04:30:00 ^and that's it 04:30:03 Even special things like ubuntu-desktop ? 04:30:05 :D 04:30:17 Lol 04:30:21 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk. 04:30:34 Sgeo: Technically it depends on how it's installed, but probably. 04:30:56 Yeah, that's APT's default behavior. Anything that's not a dependency of something installed and was auto-installed (pulled in as a dependency of something else) gets uninstalled when unneeded. 04:33:43 Wow, this thing's autorun.sh really wants gksu 04:34:00 Could probably skip it 04:34:05 Sillily installing gksu instead 04:34:52 * Sgeo removes gksu 04:48:14 What is gksu? 04:50:16 Probably some graphical sudo program 04:50:18 For GNOME 04:50:34 Or at least, it seemed to be pulling in GNOMEish packages 04:56:30 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL. 04:57:17 * Sgeo decides adding 3d accel to his Kubuntu machine would be a good idea 04:59:25 Dear Kubuntu: Please try to make some sort of effort to remember my resolution settings 05:04:20 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:04:50 Dear God Quassel's default pane sizes are terrible 05:11:36 Kopete doesn't have Facebook support 05:11:54 It seems to still be doable though 05:16:55 Sgeo: Don't use kopete. 05:16:58 Sgeo: It is so, so bad. 05:17:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:17:24 I have MeeGo downloaded, going to try MeeGo 05:18:24 How I think a package-manager could work is there is one root package (there is a standard system location for it, or it can be set by command-line arguments or environment variables). The root package contains some configuration data and depends on "local-installed-software" and "local-system-installed-software". 05:19:17 "local-installed-software" depends on any programs you have installed. To uninstall, you tell the package manager to edit "local-installed-software" to remove the dependency, and it will decide to uninstall or not. If you tell it force uninstall, it uninstall regardless of anything. 05:19:30 Does it sensible to you? 05:19:56 MeeGo complained about the CPU vendor 05:20:10 It really, really, wants to only be useful on a select few devices, doesn't it? 05:20:36 What is MeeGo and what is the CPU vendor? 05:21:14 MeeGo is a .. OS thingy 05:22:11 There is something wrong with the MOTD, I think the underlining is incorrect 05:29:54 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of purple smoke*). 05:30:41 No! It is the wrong smoke!! 05:41:52 Is it just me, or have xkcd's recent "five minute comics" been substantially better than most of the other xkcd comics. 05:45:13 * Sgeo goes to try Jolicloud 05:46:49 o.O 05:46:57 How much does Jolicloud put IN the cloud? 05:46:59 It's creepy 05:47:15 My favorite apps? Twitter and Facebook streams? 05:47:21 All stored on Jolicloud servers? 05:47:35 * Sgeo throws up a little 05:49:55 Looking at the website thing I'm logged into 05:50:04 It looks VERY MUCH like a user interface for a computer 05:51:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 06:02:07 * Sgeo has discovered the magic of BitTorrent 06:04:17 BitTorrent is meant for sharing large files (such as video files; although some Linux distributions are also shared on BitTorrent), but you can share other files too 06:09:25 Yep 06:09:32 You have to sign in to Jolicloud to use it 06:10:04 It's a fricken full screen web browser 06:10:52 "Do you want Chromium to save your password?" 06:11:02 As I sign in to an Operating System's user interface 06:11:04 This is absurd 06:13:04 Still 06:13:07 It's interesting 06:13:20 A bit silly to have to open a Chromium for web browsing when the while thing is Chromium 06:13:57 Programs should not be unmaximizable (they are) 06:16:42 About to try Lubuntu 06:20:22 Ok, I get that it's meant to be fast, not sexy 06:20:33 But where's the nice convenient easy-for-newbies package manager? 06:22:38 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:23:03 -!- wareya has joined. 06:23:27 Lubuntu Netbook people haven't heard of that F guy's law 06:24:02 What F guy's law? 06:24:52 Gregor: Not just you. 06:25:07 Gregor: I remind you that the early xkcd's were notebook doodles. 06:25:19 The one about things at the edge of the screen being infinite legnth/width as applicable and thus easier 06:26:34 Sgeo: Fitts's Law. 06:28:02 Grr 06:28:10 Does VirtualBox really not have a screenshot feature? 06:28:58 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what happened to SymphonyOS 06:30:55 * Sgeo waits for Chrome to get ot of its frozen rut 06:35:26 http://www.symphonyos.com/ This Strata stuff sounds very Jolicloud-like 06:35:42 Maybe at least they'll put some effort into hiding the webiness of the UI 06:39:17 I do not find such things useful; I can run programs locally. (SSH could be used if you needed to run programs on another computer; you could also copy a file and so on, using the other files, and so on... if you have shared accounts (like Free Geek) you can SSH and the files will still be there to copy to another directory) 06:49:01 -!- aloril has joined. 06:51:25 * Sgeo goes to try Haiku 07:02:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:59 My keys went weird 07:04:03 IN THE HOST SYSTEM 07:04:33 Anyways, my opinion of Haiku went from "It's alpha." to "It manages to be so buggy, it breaks the host OS when emulated!" 07:05:05 (Note: I'm sure there's a more reasonable explanation for what I just went through) 07:08:40 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:09:07 -!- Sasha has joined. 07:11:12 http://www.geteasypeasy.com/ 07:11:27 That screenshot looks a LOT like an old Ubuntu Netbook Remix screenshot 07:11:44 I think I'm going to stay away 07:16:54 "Around May 2008 all members of the Good OS team ceased to post in any blog, twitter, or any other web medium, including their own forum and website. While the website is still on-line, and gOS 3.1 can be downloaded, no sign of the developers has been heard of since then. Additionally there are no sources of gOS available. Development of gOS seems to have been stalled, and the official forum (http://forum.thinkgos.com/ ) was not moderated any 07:16:54 more, was quickly overrun by Spam and was closed halfway through 2009 (one of the few life-signs of the GoodOS team after mid 2008)" 07:17:13 That is one of the creepiest things I have read (wrt all this OS stuff) 07:40:38 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:41:04 07:41:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:52:19 http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/15/3 07:52:31 yes, I know it was slashdot, but still... rofffffl 07:56:23 Interesting facts from the comments: "Any PC built after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an evil spirit." 07:56:30 Makes one wonder how many bytes an evil spirit takes. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:44 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:15:28 Probably means few megs (since first PC hard drivers were 10MB). 08:16:55 -!- atrapado has joined. 08:19:14 IBM AT, introduced in August 1984, came with a 20 MB (30 MB in the later 1986 model) disk... but of course "any PC built after 1985" means I should look at when they stopped manufacturing different models. 08:27:35 Heh... ClF3 and Hydrazine would probably be quite a combo (well, at least it would burn, as ClF3 is hypergolic with darn near everything...) :-) 08:28:14 Especially if it is organic... 09:05:11 fog and -8 C outside during the night → awesome looking "frost spikes" on tree twigs 09:05:21 I mean, the have to be over 3 cm in length 09:05:26 will upload some photos soon 09:07:49 Heh, the unofficial university temperature graph for the last week looks a bit... unlikely: http://outside.hut.fi/10_days.png 09:08:23 huh. why did that link open in gimp... 09:08:36 fizzie, so it does. Presumably something was broken there 09:09:28 Anyhoo, -2 here now. 09:10:14 not sure about current temp 09:10:39 I got the -8 from the max/min thermometer about an hour ago 09:10:59 Here it didn't go below that -2 during last night, I think. 09:14:11 fizzie, here (progressive jpeg): http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/winter2010/ice_1939.jpg 09:16:10 fizzie, like it? 09:16:29 Funky. It looks a bit like that tree I phone-snapped last winter and probably mentioned here too -- http://zem.fi/~fis/frozen.jpg -- except more furry-spiky. 09:17:27 heh 09:17:49 fizzie, also your looks a bit more "undefined" in the details? 09:18:02 even in the stuff that is in focus I mean 09:18:10 Yes, I think the tree picture has had a bit of melting-refreezing going on. 09:18:13 ah 09:18:48 IIRC it was more interesting-looking in the morning when I went past it, but didn't think of photographing it until later in the afternoon when coming back the same way. 09:19:05 ah 09:19:36 fizzie, do you happen to know when the US goes non-DST? 09:20:54 I think they went a few days ago. 09:21:06 ah 09:21:10 that explains things 09:21:10 There was a lot of talk about latest iPhone OS alarm clock failing to account for that. 09:21:17 hah 09:22:16 http://support.apple.com/kb/TS3542 09:22:44 heh 09:24:56 They switch on first Sunday in November, so for this year it was the latest possible (Nov 7th) since November started on a Monday. 09:27:50 Vorpal: how is it -8C with fog outside? 09:27:58 the fog would have condensed 09:28:17 maybe it was just snow? 09:29:44 fizzie, btw, forgot if you saw that minecraft pano I made 09:34:23 Vorpal: Yes, I saw it; it was what made me think of Blenderizing a minecraft map. (Not that I'll probably bother; I didn't exactly finish the Descent thing either.) 09:34:29 ah right 09:35:04 there, now it looks somewhat less weird (added a few extra vertical lines) 09:36:23 * Vorpal stitches 09:43:13 hmmm... i want a new descent game :< 09:43:18 that works with 3d glasses! 09:44:46 The old games worked with all kinds of serial-port linked virtual helmets. 09:44:54 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:45:16 yeah, i know 09:45:20 i even have one 09:45:30 the vfx-1 09:45:37 Ooh. Is it immersive and futuristic and all other cool things? 09:45:50 yes 09:46:02 thing is 09:46:13 the important bits are not outdated 09:46:17 but the displays are 09:46:23 i could hack two iphone displays together i bet! 09:47:03 I remember one with a warning label saying you're not supposed to use it while you're downhill skiing. That seemed an oddly precise warning. 09:51:27 wtf? 09:51:43 haha, i've never seen that. 09:52:59 i have really liked the descent-ish levels in crysis 09:53:35 heh 09:53:50 Ooh. Is it immersive and futuristic and all other cool things? <-- are you asking me? And if so: about what? 09:54:00 No, it was about the virtual helmet there. 09:54:04 ah 09:55:04 how cute - pretending to have me on ignore, and putting up a nice show of it 09:57:26 On the same sort of topic: I have this stand-alone GPS unit with a few silly games (maze, nibbles, that sort of thing) that you play by phyiscally moving around; you can set the size of the playing field and so on. The manual says "[!] WARNING: Do not attempt to play these games while driving a motor vehicle or in an area of heavy traffic." 10:03:32 you COULD play it by driving a car around a desert or something 10:21:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:22:57 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua). 11:28:18 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:28:20 http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2369/bgc.png 11:28:51 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 11:35:05 Haha: This site only partially works with IPv6-only client. Guess what doesn't work? :-) 11:43:04 (Hint: It is a part you would least expect to fail with IPv6). 11:46:21 Ilari, which site? 11:46:31 fizzie, awesome 11:49:31 Ilari: css? 11:49:56 site links? 11:56:14 "IPv6 ready" logo. :-) 11:58:19 lol 12:06:31 Ilari, :D 12:33:01 -!- sftp has joined. 13:03:03 -!- Ugo has joined. 13:50:54 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:58:20 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 14:01:08 -!- digimunk has joined. 14:09:02 -!- digimunk has left (?). 14:12:25 -!- Sasha has joined. 14:18:05 -!- elliott has joined. 14:19:23 -!- elliott has set topic: tailgating on the whims of the vestibular? WE GOT IT | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 14:19:51 19:57:50 The only thing I disliked was the not-easy-for-a-newbie-to-use software installer 14:20:01 Did *you* have problems? 14:20:17 20:06:26 Ubuntu's in-install slideshow let you go forward and back. Kubuntu's doesn't 14:20:22 Please read this very slowly and then shoot yourself. 14:20:52 20:22:25 TLUL: The preconfiguration is part of the package... Unless you intend to compile from source, you're really not going to get anything magically different from using the normal installer. 14:20:52 20:22:46 That's not entirely true. 14:20:52 20:23:25 There won't be many differences, but there will be some. 14:20:55 TLUL: You are wrong. 14:21:19 20:24:34 What's incorrect about it? 14:21:20 20:24:36 incorrect package names 14:21:20 20:25:38 The funny thing is you're probably looking it up right now. 14:21:20 20:25:50 Despite the fact that you got all of the package names right. 14:21:23 Oh, fuck off. 14:22:17 21:41:52 Is it just me, or have xkcd's recent "five minute comics" been substantially better than most of the other xkcd comics. 14:22:19 Gregor: Insanely so. 14:23:00 Gregor: (I mean, okay, they're obviously five-minute comics, but they're still 10x better than anything since... comic 400.) 14:31:50 -!- CAHb14 has joined. 14:32:50 ìóäèëà íà !!! âû ãäå áëÿ ïðîïàëè??!!))) 14:33:38 -!- CAHb14 has left (?). 14:35:35 -!- CAHb14 has joined. 14:37:24 CAHb14: iojeioaeoaje 14:37:30 Hello!ïîøåë íà õóé) 14:39:05 CAHb14: hi 14:39:41 8-) 14:40:38 -!- CAHb14 has left (?). 14:40:38 -!- CAHb14 has joined. 14:42:02 great 14:42:07 a ruski markovbot 14:45:05 -!- CAHb14 has quit (Quit: CAHb14). 14:46:43 -!- Ugo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:49:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:53:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:56:58 hi ais523 15:00:12 The purpose of readproctitle here is to give us some access to any error messages that may be generated by a running svscan process. The 400 dots that appear as the last argument to the command provide readproctitle with an in-memory buffer it uses to display whatever it reads from its standard input. It is then possible to view this display with a process status listing using the ps(1) command: 15:00:12 # ps -axww | grep readproctitle 15:00:12 [XXX sample output here] 15:00:14 WJW. 15:01:44 "The problem arises because, for security reasons, FreeBSD no longer mounts procfs, the process file system, by default." wat 15:09:34 wow, today's TheDailyETF is actually /good/ 15:09:49 *TheDailyWTF 15:10:14 also, I've seen people do things like $^E=' 'x1000; before to allocate memory in Perl 15:10:18 I suspect it's a similar principle 15:11:03 ais523: no, it's because it shows up in ps 15:11:10 ais523: and obviously you can't realloc argv[n] 15:11:23 so it passes 400 dots so that readproctitle can change that argument's value to show up in ps... 15:11:26 elliott: well, it is much the same principle there 15:11:30 ais523: and this is how all errors are shown, scrolling right to left on that 15:11:34 ais523: worst logging system ever? 15:11:44 elliott: no, that's /ingenious/ 15:11:47 crazy, but ingenious 15:12:06 ais523: yes, but: the package also comes with a *normal* logging system that it takes about 5 lines of code to replace that thing with 15:12:19 so i have no idea what /that's/ doing there :D 15:13:24 hmm, apparently oerjan's email no longer works 15:13:40 cpressey sent an email to me and him, and the mail to him bounced 15:13:41 ais523: same reason his IRC doesn't 15:13:46 ais523: his shell account is gone 15:13:48 that would make sense 15:13:58 ais523: Hey, cpressey and oerjan, two people we're missing! 15:14:01 Well, at least I am. 15:14:41 cpressey's active on the wiki 15:14:50 in fact, he just deleted something, which surprised me because I didn't realise he was an admin 15:15:02 ais523: I think he became an admin, like, right after he registered. 15:15:14 ais523: pretty sure he's stopped coming to IRC because he said it was eating up all his time :) 15:15:20 (also 'cuz i'm irritating probably) 15:15:41 You may be anal-retentive, but apparently not anal-retentive enough to keep the email address on your home page up to date! What manner of perfidious chicanery is this perfidious chicanery? Please email me your working email address, if you have one. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, the guy who emailed Ørjan only to receive a 554 User Account has Expired response from nvg.ntnu.no, November somethingth, 2010 15:15:42 Sorry, I honestly cannot manage to handle this right now. --Ørjan 04:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC) 15:15:42 :( --Chris Pressey 04:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC) 15:15:48 looks like oerjan's burned out 15:16:25 indeed, that's fair enough 15:16:26 ais523: FWIW, I'd got to the point of emailing the networking club at his university (where his account was) asking if he was okay before I realised he'd been commenting on the "Gödel's Lost Letter and P=NP" blog the whole time 15:16:29 and that was a while ago 15:16:33 * elliott resumes mild worrying 15:16:48 I'm just glad to know he's OK; if he wants to abandon the community, that's his right 15:17:10 ais523: oh, absolutely, it just doesn't fit with any model of oerjan I have in my head 15:17:22 if something bad happened to me, this channel would probably be the first place to notice 15:17:53 I'm still mildly surprised that people noticed /I/ was gone, but then I do account for something like 50% of the entire channel's traffic. 15:18:32 ais523: *more importantly,* losing cpressey and oerjan in a short space of time has dramatically cut our levels of interesting conversation :) 15:19:10 [edit] thumb mature 15:19:10 This article is a great help to me! Thank you! 15:19:13 spammers are very thumb mature 15:19:37 elliott: I'm pretty sure cpressey and I were racing each other to revert that 15:20:14 ais523: it could have been a perfectly valid contribution! 15:20:19 I'm very thumb mature myself. 15:20:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:20:42 -!- elliott has set topic: the secret order of the thumb mature, dedicated to all topics related to esoteric computing | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:27:41 elliott, if installed Kubuntu works far better than live Kubuntu, might real installed Kubuntu be far better than emulated Kubuntu? >:D 15:28:02 Sgeo: You shall not use Kubuntu and I'll say no more! 15:28:54 Sgeo: The *wolves* will get you. And seriously, fuck KDE. 15:29:59 The desktop plasmoid thing is a bit weird, and C++ must die, but what else is so bad about KDE? 15:30:33 Everything. 15:32:12 What would you say if I started looking for a way to make GNOME look like KDE? 15:32:27 -!- augur has joined. 15:32:27 Sgeo: I would say "Stop remaking XFCE" 15:32:37 Gregor: ...'cuz Xfce looks so much like KDE? :P 15:32:48 Sgeo: I'd probably just punch you and put you on ignore again for my sanity. 15:32:51 elliott: A hell of a lot more than GNOME does. 15:33:00 Gregor: Yeah, 'cuz... it ships with one panel? 15:33:04 Gregor: It does not look like KDE :P 15:33:35 * Sgeo still hasn't tried Sabayon Linux 15:33:40 elliott: XFCE's and KDE's default layouts share: The fact that they're both abstractions of Windows 95. 15:33:54 Gregor: GNOME is also Windows 95, except they split the taskbar into two :P 15:34:30 Gregor: Also, KDE4's default layout is about as far removed from Windows 95 as you can get while still being vaguely like that. 15:34:33 At least on the desktop. 15:34:51 Which distros tend to support KDE better than they support GNOME? 15:34:56 * Sgeo would guess OpenSUSE 15:35:08 Sgeo: "Sabayon Linux relies on two package managers. Portage is inherited from Gentoo, while Entropy was developed for Sabayon. Portage downloads source-code and compiles it specifically for the target system, whereas Entropy manages binary files from servers. The binary tarball packages are precompiled using the Gentoo Linux unstable tree." 15:35:12 Also, LFS. 15:35:15 It's the best distro ever! 15:35:18 Use it or Ubuntu. Also shut up. 15:35:25 elliott: Yeah, that's because it's followed in Windows 7's footsteps. But since 7 < 95, presumably 95 is the newer and more advanced Windows to follow. 15:35:38 Gregor: ...verily 15:37:21 Gregor: It just occurred to me that, like people who think they're hardware savvy because they plugged a computer together, there must be hordes of Linux From Scratch users thinking they did something special, advanced, difficult, and unsupported, rather than just typing ./configure, make, and make install a lot. :( 15:37:39 OOOH 15:37:49 The panels have optional hide buttons 15:37:51 <3 15:38:06 Sgeo: I hate you to death. 15:38:18 I can finally use Chromium properly! 15:38:45 In fact, I'm going to frame those last two lines on my wall, and then animate a short cartoon where you repeatedly hide and unhide the panels just because you can, and then I will send the napalm. 15:38:47 And you will burn to death. 15:39:06 Actually 15:39:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:41:40 Hmm 15:42:50 * Sgeo decides he hates the autohide stuff 15:43:01 I still want Fitt's Law to help out with Chromium tabs 15:44:00 *Fitts' 15:46:07 elliott: Idonno, I think it would be difficult to go through all of LFS without accidentally gaining a LITTLE bit of savvy. 15:46:35 Gregor: Yeah...but...it's not magic :P 15:46:53 Gregor: I mean, you have to compile the kernel, and you have to... compile gcc and glibc, I guess. 15:46:58 Gregor: The rest is pretty plain-sailing. 15:47:06 ....why does GNOME think my battery is charging? 15:47:34 I don't know, 15:47:38 MAYBE YOUR FUCKING BATTERY IS CHARGING 15:47:50 I'm at school and did not bring my charger 15:47:58 My laptop is connected to nothing 15:48:09 22:28:10 Does VirtualBox really not have a screenshot feature? 15:48:12 MAYBE YOU SHOULD STOP CALLING FURTHER EDUCATION "SCHOOL" 15:48:16 apparently Sgeo has never taken a screenshot in Windows before 15:48:24 ALL OF YOU AMERICANS 15:48:30 IT'S SO ANNOYING 15:49:04 23:16:54 "Around May 2008 all members of the Good OS team ceased to post in any blog, twitter, or any other web medium, including their own forum and website. While the website is still on-line, and gOS 3.1 can be downloaded, no sign of the developers has been heard of since then. Additionally there are no sources of gOS available. Development of gOS seems to have been stalled, and the official forum (http://forum.thinkgos.com/ ) was not m 15:49:04 oderated any 15:49:04 23:16:54 more, was quickly overrun by Spam and was closed halfway through 2009 (one of the few life-signs of the GoodOS team after mid 2008)" 15:49:04 23:17:13 That is one of the creepiest things I have read (wrt all this OS stuff) 15:49:13 They all got raped by Mark Shuttleworth's invisible hand of the free market. 15:55:01 i would love to see Sgeo using @ 15:56:33 Phantom_Hoover: HEY HOOVIE I'M IN SCHOOL GETTIN' MY DOCTORATE DEGREE. 15:56:49 Gregor: hav u got ur packed lunch 15:57:00 Phantom_Hoover: In other words: YO DOG, THEY HEARD I LIKE SCHOOL SO THEY SCHOOL ME IN HOW TO SCHOOL SO I CAN SCHOOL WHILE I SCHOOL. 15:57:01 Gregor, did mummy drive you there? 15:57:16 GREGOR NEEDS A PLASTER BECAUSE HE TRIPPED 15:57:22 ;__; 15:57:46 Tripped on a KITTEN. 15:57:52 Which then said "mew". 15:58:10 ... needs ... a plaster? 15:58:36 A plaster? 15:58:45 One of those sticky things you put on cuts? 15:58:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:59:11 Hahaha you people and your foreign dialects. 15:59:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:59:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:59:52 So, Ubuntu has issues with the wifi IN THIS ROOM 15:59:56 :psyduck: 16:00:48 Sgeo_, would you like to use @? 16:01:08 I'd like to try it 16:01:18 Don't feel like installing it on a real system though 16:02:33 It doesn't exist yet, so there may be problems... 16:02:58 But! It lacks WINDOWS. And FILES. And APPLICATIONS AS WE KNOW THEM. 16:03:14 And KITTENS 16:03:27 I don't think Sgeo_ realises that @ is not Kitten. 16:03:32 That sounds awesome. As long as Ubuntu or some other major distro doesn't pull a GNOME and abruptly force it on everyone 16:03:52 . . . 16:04:03 Sgeo_: You... do realise it isn't based on Linux in the slightest? 16:04:27 * Sgeo_ couldn't think of a better analogy for the GNOME mess 16:04:36 Also, should have realized it 16:05:09 Sgeo_, it's the Lisp OS successor. 16:05:10 How about this: As long as Microsoft doesn't take it, rebrand it as Windows 8, and declare Windows 7 end-of-life 16:05:51 * Phantom_Hoover 's mind breaks 16:06:30 -!- augur has joined. 16:06:58 WINDOWS. SODDING. EIGHT. 16:07:13 WHAT 16:08:24 Sgeo_, when did you go completely incoherent? 16:09:00 I was trying to hold on to my precious crappy analogy with GNOME Shell 16:09:10 what 16:09:50 With GNOME Shell taking what might be a cool concept and forcing it on everyone 16:10:27 Microsoft using @ is so utterly laughable words cannot express it. 16:10:47 Sgeo_: I hate you I hate you I hate you 16:11:00 Literally _every piece of software ever previously made in any language_ wouldn't work. 16:11:05 Phantom_Hoover, do you think I seriously thought that would happen? 16:11:12 Also I like the idea of Microsoft adopting it when there's basically no way to do closed-source software at all. 16:11:13 Also, GNOME Shell breaks GNOME panels, doesn't it? 16:11:17 I don't know WHAT you thought. 16:11:29 Sgeo_: Did I mention it doesn't have Chrome? 16:11:37 Or Factor. 16:11:42 I assume that a web browser will be written for it 16:11:55 Sgeo_: Probably not one with an especially fast JS engine. 16:11:55 And an environment like it could actually get me to like a Lisp 16:12:05 elliott, it could have one. 16:12:13 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I can't be arsed to write one. 16:12:20 JS → @ → raw x86 code. 16:12:30 Phantom_Hoover: And I don't particularly care whether it works with Gmail or anything. 16:12:39 Sgeo_: Did I mention no Smalltalk? 16:12:57 Did I mention that I won't be installing it as my main OS? 16:13:01 Sure, but that would be the obvious way to implement a lot of languages. 16:13:18 Doing it on JS would probably be good practice or something. 16:13:41 Sgeo_: Also, it will automatically remove every other OS.. 16:13:43 *OS. 16:13:56 In fact I'm planning to distribute it by a web page that automatically installs it. 16:14:07 And it will also use exploits in various hypervisors to take over host systems! 16:14:25 elliott, I thought it would have to play nicely with partitions? 16:14:31 Phantom_Hoover: Nope. 16:14:45 Sgeo_: There are more than a few... 16:15:10 Sgeo_, you wouldn't need any other OSes anyway. 16:15:13 * Sgeo_ wonders if there's any malware in the wild that takes advantage of exploits 16:15:23 Erm, hypervisor exploits 16:15:47 (Please tell me that I'm using "hypervisor" correctly 16:15:48 probably 16:17:57 Sgeo_, you wouldn't be able to run AW on @. 16:18:42 I'm going to assume that elliott isn't malicious enough to exploit hypervisor exploits 16:20:37 Sgeo_ would give up when he realises it doesn't have a single 3D effect. 16:20:42 Sgeo_: you'd likely need to have root privs on the emulated system to be able to exploit a hypervisor exploit 16:20:58 Also, it's not a hypervisor, Sgeo_. 16:21:04 Hypervisors are things like Xen. 16:23:31 Sgeo_ has had a 3D seizure. 16:25:25 I once played with 3DNA 16:25:34 It needs multiuser 16:26:01 After you Google it, you'll kill me 16:26:09 -!- Meryle has joined. 16:26:09 *NOTICE* FREENODE IS K-LINING ALL UNREGISTERED NICKS IN 1 HOUR. PLEASE JOIN #FREENODE OR /MSG ANY STAFFER FOR FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS! 16:26:09 -!- Meryle has left (?). 16:26:09 Sgeo_: Not a *single* 3D effect in @. Ever. 16:26:14 yawn, more spam 16:26:57 Back in my day, spam was spam and trolling was trolling, never the two shall meat 16:26:59 meet 16:27:11 *never the twain shall meet, you illiterate bum. 16:27:21 Sgeo_: Not a SINGLE 3D effect. 16:28:03 Will it have any semblance of a GUI at all? 16:28:21 Sgeo_: Well, it'll use your display hardware to draw things. 16:28:23 But there's no icons. 16:28:25 Mostly text. 16:28:57 "mostly"? 16:29:16 Sgeo_: Well, there are lines to divide panes. 16:31:31 Sgeo_ has had a 4D seizure. 16:31:56 4D interface! 16:32:07 Sgeo_ just can't handle the lines, can you Sgeo_? 16:32:09 Lines are too much for any mortal. 16:32:11 :P 16:32:14 I can't handle the lines! 16:32:28 * Sgeo_ is in class 16:33:04 Class prevents lines. 16:33:16 Unless you behave badly. 16:34:45 -!- elliott has left (?). 16:34:48 -!- elliott has joined. 16:44:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:56:13 "I’d long felt that combining a powerful static type system with functional coding would be almost ideal. " 16:56:32 Some person talking about Scala 16:56:39 hahahahaha 16:57:41 neither powerful nor static are words I'd use to describe Java's type system 16:59:40 "But guess what? In Scala, you can’t tell from looking at a method call if it’s going to store the closure or not. You might not even be able to tell from the ScalaDoc. You’ll probably end up going to the method and rooting around in the source code. If you can find it. Once again, the information that you need to know is scattered about." 16:59:42 Uhh 16:59:49 That's what documentation is FOR, isn't it? 17:00:01 rofffl 17:01:40 neither powerful nor static are words I'd use to describe Java's type system 17:01:42 Scala has its own 17:01:49 Most of Java's typing is at compile-time :P 17:02:34 allegedly 17:03:10 in my opinion, it isn't fun until ((.)(.)) is a valid expression 17:03:23 Ah yes, the boobies operator. 17:06:01 My professor was just showing us an index of programming languages in use in industry 17:06:06 Haskell was above Scala 17:07:24 Wait, TIOBE? 17:07:27 lollll 17:08:20 Sgeo_: because Haskell is a good language 17:09:42 * Phantom_Hoover gets Minecraft. 17:11:45 NOT MINECRAFT 17:11:45 ARGH 17:12:08 MINECRAFT IS THE NEW WOW 17:13:36 yorick: Yes, but with Minecraft you don't have to socialise. 17:15:21 Java is definitely statically typed 17:15:33 elliott: But what about all the block types you can only get in 64-dude raids! 17:15:33 it's not a very /good/ type system, but it's definitely a static one 17:16:44 fizzie: heh, 64-dude 17:17:32 It's the gender-neutral dude. 17:17:51 (Though I've seen "dudette" used too.) 17:19:04 fizzie: I was just commenting on the power-of-twoness. 17:20:01 Well, I just assumed, since most things stack to piles of 64, so. 17:20:29 Right. 17:21:11 yorick, minecraft is awesome. :P 17:21:32 Vorpal: it doesn't even work 17:21:49 yorick, try sun-jvm rather than openjdk if you get a black screen 17:22:04 Vorpal: how am I supposed to change that 17:22:13 yorick, depends on your linux distro 17:22:38 elliott, btw I decided that the fort will have 8 towers: the corners and middle of the sides. And they will be high and be in brick. 17:22:43 which means finding a lot of clay 17:22:54 Vorpal: lawl 17:23:10 Vorpal: how am I supposed to change that 17:23:12 elliott, I'm going for Gregor style in colours :P 17:23:13 sounds like a windows user 17:23:14 (or os x?) 17:23:23 Vorpal: ubuntu 10.04 17:23:54 yorick, hm. Lets see. You enable the partner repo in the package repo selection thingy 17:24:02 then update the package list 17:24:08 and then select sun-jvm and such 17:24:32 I doubt yorick has bought the game. 17:24:41 Meaning that alas, poor yorick, it won't work unless you buy it. 17:24:58 well, enable sun plugin for the classic one in the browser 17:25:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:25:09 it is a separate package 17:25:11 elliott: shh...I'm decompiling and 'fixing' it 17:25:15 I think 17:25:15 yorick: lolfail 17:25:17 yorick: It won't work. 17:25:37 yorick, it logs in then downloads the full game. 17:25:38 so uh 17:25:41 yeah that won't work 17:25:44 yorick: Unless you hAX0R the server to give you it. Which would require fooling it into thinking you have paid, so GOOD LUCK MR. 1337 17:25:44 Vorpal: shh... 17:25:52 "Shh! My powers defy LOGIC!" 17:25:56 yorick, you could pirate it of course. If that is your thing 17:25:57 yes that 17:25:58 You're a moron. 17:26:07 (my powers defy logic thing) 17:27:11 um, will someone summarise or do I have to read scrollback? 17:27:14 Incidentally, what's a bit strange is: my single-player "World 1" shows "0.0 MB" as the size, has been like that ever since I first visited the Nether. 17:27:45 fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot, and anything less would be 0.0 MB when rounded 17:27:54 ais523: minecraft sucks 17:28:09 ais523: The rest of the worlds are about 2 to 7 MB. 17:28:23 * yorick off to dinner! 17:28:37 (And World 1 was also at least >5 before I did that first Nether visit.) 17:29:11 minecraft's beginning to irritate me to the extent that Inception does 17:29:14 `addquote fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot 17:29:24 260| fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot 17:29:30 in that it seems to completely clog up unrelated channels 17:29:38 ais523: tl;dr summary: yorick (1) complains about Minecraft, (2) says "YEAH WELL IT DOESN'T EVEN WORK ANYWAY", (3) is told how to install the right JVM, (4) says that he's decompiling the game to get it to work after being told he'd need to buy it for it to work, despite the fact that all the authentication is server-side 17:29:44 elliott: it's around 1/3rd of a typical 3.5 inch floppy disk 17:29:54 and then (5) reverts back to hating minecraft while seemingly wanting to "hax0r" it anyway 17:30:06 ais523: Minecraft fans can be irritating, but it is a good game. 17:30:06 but that's fair enough 17:30:14 No, 500 kB would be around third of a typical, 1.44 MB modern floppy. 17:30:28 elliott: my understanding is NetHack : Diablo :: Dwarf Fortress : Minecraft 17:30:35 ais523: It's hardly fair to complain about #esoteric being clogged up with irrelevant stuff when it's hardly ever not. :) 17:30:39 METAFONT seems a bit simpler program than TeX, it has less sections and less pages than TeX. 17:30:40 fizzie: ah, out by an order of 10 17:30:41 ais523: hmm, no, Minecraft is nothing like Dwarf Fortress 17:30:47 elliott: I thought it was inspired by it 17:30:51 ais523: well, possibly 17:30:58 although not having an equivalent to dwarves makes a major difference 17:31:05 ais523: it's more like Lego on ...not crack; heroin? 17:31:24 ais523: also, with monsters. so you build shelters. out of lego. uh. It sounds shitty when you explain it :P 17:31:29 arguably, you could say NetHack was nothing like Diablo 17:31:31 But yes, the fanbase is... eurgh. 17:31:37 but there's certainly a resemblence 17:32:09 ais523: well, Minecraft has no predetermined goal and you don't *have* to do anything except survive (which is trivial if you disable monsters by going into Peaceful mode) 17:32:17 ais523: which is a bit different from dwarf fortress, really... 17:33:03 that's very like Dwarf Fortress, which also has no predefined goal and doesn't require doing anything but surviving 17:33:25 ais523: dwarf fortress also takes place on a finite grid, as far as I know 17:33:39 it's a large, finite, 3D grid nowadays 17:33:40 ais523: whereas minecraft takes place on a (well, 200 terabytes max) infinite world 17:33:51 I don't see that as a major difference, though 17:33:53 ais523: wait, since when is Dwarf Fortress 3D? 17:34:00 since, um, a while ago 17:34:05 I tried playing Dwarf Fortress once, I do not particularly like the game, I cannot figure it out and it is slow and there seems to be some things missing? 17:34:05 it still has a 2D interface, though 17:34:09 meaning it's really confusing 17:34:13 ah 17:34:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:35:07 ais523: I haven't actually played DF, but I don't get a Minecraft impression from what I hear of it. 17:35:18 It is a true successor to the first Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, then; since that was a really confusing game too. 17:35:45 elliott: think Minecraft except realtime strategy 17:35:45 ais523: [[In "Adventurer mode", the player controls an individual dwarf, human, or elf. There is no goal apart from survival. Players may either receive quests to kill monsters, which provide no specific reward, or wander freely and slaughter local fauna. Gameplay is fairly minimal; "Fortress mode" has received the bulk of the developer's attention.]] 17:35:54 ais523: ok, that sounds like Minecraft, except Minecraft actually has things to do 17:35:58 elliott: Fortress mode is the one people play 17:35:59 and mechanics 17:36:00 in DF 17:36:01 ais523: right 17:36:11 I think when slaves to armok gets ready, its weather model will be user for weather forecasts, and the US army will use the nuclear blast spell for nuke tests 17:36:16 if you imagine that each of the individual dwarves is playing Minecraft according to an AI 17:36:17 ais523: I'm saying that Adventurer mode sounds sort of like Minecraft before it got interesting 17:36:19 fizzie: :D 17:36:20 which you have mild control over 17:36:25 that's fortress mode 17:36:36 I like to think fizzie has an advanced search system for his entire IRC logs. 17:36:37 fizzie: brilliant 17:36:43 He just typed "/relevant slaves to armok" there. 17:36:49 elliott: grep -r works pretty well 17:37:01 ais523: not fuzzy enough 17:37:06 ais523: also, quite slow 17:37:28 Did Slaves to Armok: God of Blood (Chapter I) ever actually get completed, fizzie? 17:37:30 The site seems... dormant. 17:37:37 [Context: "Does this game support anything else than walking?"] 17:37:39 it does 17:37:39 press the foot button and change speed 17:37:39 from the slider 17:37:39 however, you'll get exhausted quickly, fall over and hug the ground for hours 17:37:39 so watch that stamina 17:37:44 August 8th, 2006 17:37:44 Well, I've been secretly working on an adventure mode inside of Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress. Now that dwarves has been released, this will be the natural continuation of Armok. See you over there! 17:37:44 September 27th, 2004 17:37:44 I've updated the "You Finally Aren't Naked" a bit: Armok 0.04.51. It shouldn't crash during heat cone spells now, and you can specify your character a bit more in the creation screens. 17:37:47 ais523: Minecraft fans can be irritating, but it is a good game. <-- and those who want to be fans but don't want to pay for it tend to be even more annoying. Examples: nooga, yorick. 17:37:50 I don't think it did. 17:38:07 Vorpal: Clearly yorick doesn't want to be a fan. 17:38:31 In fact it's something that rings a bell as a certain type of behaviour I've seen before, but not in this form -- "game sucks! Rabble rabble! [Uninformed natter]" "well I'm getting it to work with my SKILLZ" 17:38:35 Despite the utter contradiction there. 17:38:39 elliott, well. that is even worse. 17:38:53 fizzie: Man, what's Chapter III gonna be like. 17:39:21 Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter III: Sorting /dev/urandom, Prologue: Part I 17:39:24 the messages are the best part of the game 17:39:25 Tongue severed! Third finger severed! 17:39:34 It's got a very detailed damage model. 17:39:40 fizzie: Add mooz to fungot. Now! :p 17:39:41 elliott: but if it's little ai scripts and storyline stuff, then the infantry will be lost in translation. :-p 17:39:41 You can also walk on one finger. 17:39:46 wat 17:39:46 elliott: clearly, you just need to control all the entropy in the universe so /dev/urandom comes out in sorted order 17:39:57 ^style 17:39:57 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 17:40:07 that was a brilliant fungot comment 17:40:07 ais523: and other languages if you want to think about adding it to mycology!!! 17:40:17 Mistake, and confusing tar output: 17:40:18 elliott@dinky:~$ tar xf http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_31_18_linux.tar.bz2tar: Cannot connect to http: resolve failed 17:40:25 Erm, s/bz2tar/bz2\ntar/ 17:40:36 One of the playable Armok races is "flesh ball". 17:40:40 they can't move. hit them and get "Og the flesh ball screams in pain. Og the flesh ball passes out." 17:40:44 Hmph, Dwarf Fortress is dynamically-linked. 17:40:48 :D 17:40:49 and no matter what you do to him then, he'll just remain in that state 17:40:51 fizzie, what is the context of those quotes? 17:41:02 Vorpal: Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter I. 17:41:05 ah 17:41:18 Except it wasn't called Chapter I then. 17:41:23 fizzie, sounds familiar... Trying to remember which one it is 17:41:24 These are from 2003 or so. 17:41:41 I mean, you can individually set the boiling point, density, color and rarity of the left foot 4th toe hair material 17:41:48 Vorpal: Chapter II is called Dwarf Fortress. 17:42:02 elliott, ah! 17:42:17 Vorpal: (Chapter III is called Sorting /dev/urandom; currently, the Prologue is being worked on, of which the first part is out -- Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter III: Sorting /dev/urandom, Prologue: Part I.) 17:42:23 Vorpal: (Note: Lies.) 17:42:34 elliott, :P 17:42:46 I mean, you can individually set the boiling point, density, color and rarity of the left foot 4th toe hair material 17:42:48 there can be no better game 17:43:21 but, but... Can't I can't control the viscosity? 17:43:27 err 17:43:32 Here's also another person playing the game: 17:43:33 s/can't// 17:43:34 <@iood> UHH your dog crucifixion skill has increased from neophyte to beginner :p 17:43:47 fizzie, is this a parody? :D 17:43:51 Vorpal: I don't think so :) 17:43:53 or is it actually like that 17:44:02 No, I think it's actually like that. 17:44:02 NetHack is so boring! 17:44:07 It lacks these FEATURES. 17:44:17 wtf 17:44:51 I believe it was supposed to just include a totally complete simulation of (a) reality. Isn't DF a bit like that too? 17:44:53 elliott, where can one get this game? 17:45:08 Vorpal: Dwarf Fortress is http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/features.html, and has a Linux binary. (It is closed source.) 17:45:10 fizzie: since when did reality include masses of dwarves, elves and goblins? 17:45:17 Vorpal: Chapter I is a free Windows binary; probably Wine works. 17:45:25 Vorpal: http://www.bay12games.com/armok/ 17:45:25 ah 17:45:32 ais523: Well, that's why it was "a reality", not "the". 17:45:34 elliott, was chapter 2 FOSS or? I don't remember 17:45:44 It's fun for about seven minutes, then you just desperately want to kill all the little buggers and stop playing. 17:45:58 Vorpal: No. But it does have a free Linux binary. 17:46:03 Vorpal: This is what Dwarf Fortress looks like: http://diceofdoom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dwarffortress-big.png 17:46:03 hm 17:46:20 fizzie: oh, I took your (a) as introducing an ordered list of one element 17:46:28 Hard to find a screenshot of chapter I that definitely isn't a screenshot of chapter II. 17:46:33 that was a rather fun misinterpretation 17:46:44 elliott, btw built a moderately secure dock inside the mountain. possible to see it all from behind the doors to spot enemies before you open the doors and such 17:46:49 Vorpal: heh 17:47:02 Vorpal: Will you turn off Peaceful now? :P 17:47:10 I want to see a code for a roguelike game that is versatile enough (but not too complicated in the implementaion) that you can have not only any race/class combination, but your character can be any kind of creature in the game, and that things can be added without interrupting existing things, and so on 17:47:32 elliott, No. When I have the roof lit and the corner towers built. Then it is time 17:47:42 It would be AWESOME to have a roguelike that has an actual physics engine. 17:47:45 Somehow. 17:47:52 So that weapons are just coded objects, or whatever. 17:47:54 (For example, adding a new scroll without having to edit the code for scrolls in general, only add a new section to the code.) 17:49:48 Such as if you program it in Enhanced CWEB and there is one chapter for the kinds of scrolls, you write one section for each scroll, the code generation features in Enhanced CWEB should work good enough to make this work? 17:49:49 fizzie: Osama Bin Laden lives in a Dwarf Fortress: http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/binladenfortress/originalfortress-hoopa.gif 17:49:54 elliott, they have physics already. Just very different physics from this reality 17:50:01 Vorpal: Yes, but all the physics reactions are hardcoded. 17:50:08 Vorpal: I mean a totally generic roguelike engine, just physics + object definitions. 17:50:14 Vorpal: ala ragdoll physics games 17:50:19 elliott, well they are the fundamental laws of physics in that universe 17:50:25 Vorpal: (A la minecraft, sort of :P) 17:50:46 fizzie: Oh my: http://i.imgur.com/ch2PM.png 17:51:03 Apparently this gentlemen died because something had sexual intercourse with a wound in his skull. 17:51:11 I... am not sure if that is emergent behaviour or not. 17:51:18 "Not to ruin the joke, but just in case anyone was confused on this, it was holding a loincloth in its hand and it decided to beat him to death with it." 17:51:19 Or that. 17:51:50 heh 17:52:39 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 17:52:40 $ ls /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 17:52:40 /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 17:52:42 wat 17:52:51 elliott, ls -l 17:52:52 on it 17:53:01 elliott, maybe it is a broken symlink 17:53:02 Links to a perfectly existing file. 17:53:06 Vorpal: Oh, ./df is a shell script. 17:53:09 It probably does something WRONG 17:53:11 elliott, file /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress 17:53:16 elliott, 32/64 perhaps? 17:53:21 $ file /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress 17:53:21 /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0: symbolic link to `libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.3' 17:53:21 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, stripped 17:53:22 Ohh. 17:53:23 Indeed. 17:53:30 Silly I. 17:53:43 elliott, you need the multilib packages 17:53:46 Yay, Debian has no 32-bit SDL. 17:54:05 elliott, wtf 17:54:07 You could have a generic roguelike engine with just physics + object definitions, but I think such thing could be slow and not work well and various other problems, too. Try my way of a roguelike engine see whether it works better? 17:54:11 elliott, even arch has that 17:54:26 elliott, does it have zsnes? If yes then it must have a 32-bit sd 17:54:27 sdl* 17:54:29 Vorpal: There's a 32-bit ncurses though! 17:54:30 I'm pretty sure SDL is in ia32-libs or what was that generic package. 17:54:34 fizzie: Oh, okay. 17:54:44 It might be lacking some symlinks though, I had some related problems like that. 17:54:46 Vorpal: No zsnes in amd64, though. Just checked. 17:54:51 There 17:54:57 * elliott installs ia32-libs 17:54:58 's no zsnes, that's true. 17:55:08 How many things in the "Criticize" section did you believe? http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 17:55:09 huh 17:55:10 how strange 17:55:13 snes9x-gtk is better than zsnes anyway. 17:55:21 Gregor: bsnes is better :P 17:55:41 elliott: I spose if your system is fast enough ... which mine probably is, I've never actually tested it :P 17:55:50 Gregor: That's actually a myth. 17:56:09 Gregor: It has three modes; the insane one requires a good computer, the medium one requires a regular computer, the low one requires just about anything. 17:56:15 Mmm 17:56:19 Gregor: You can sacrifice anality for speed. 17:56:30 Gregor: *My* problem was that the audio didn't like to sync without stuttering, which I blame on Linux audio for sucking. 17:56:49 fizzie: No 32-bit gtk. 17:56:51 It used to be so that zsnes was a lot faster than snes9x; but that was way back when. 17:56:55 Andreas Naive has a funny name. 17:56:56 Oh, wait. 17:56:58 ia32-libs-gtk 17:57:00 Sacrifice anality for speed? Maybe instead you can sacrifice sanity for wood. 17:57:05 Gregor: He isn't in the dictionary. 17:57:18 elliott: I should hope so, although his last name ought to be. 17:57:21 Gregor: Or is that Andreas Gullible? 17:57:31 Andreas Gal-lible 17:57:45 fizzie: ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 17:57:46 fizzie: lol 17:58:06 That it might not have, then. 17:58:11 Though Ubuntu ia32-libs does. 17:58:29 Sure, TUB UNTU. 17:58:33 A tub unto. 17:58:34 TUBGIRL 17:58:45 I thought latest Debian also had facilities to automagically handle the installation of any "libfoo" package from 32-bit Debian properly into 64-bit multilib mess, but I have no idea whether they actually got that working or enabled it by default. 17:59:32 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:00:32 fizzie: That would require recompilation, unless the entire 32-bit repository's libraries think they're in /usr/lib32. Probably they think they're in /usr/lib. 18:00:34 I may be wrong. 18:01:15 Yes, I don't think it directly used the 32-bit repo packages. 18:02:03 On Dwarf Fortress: http://i.imgur.com/nqfS9.png 18:02:55 hey Vorpal can evil things sink to the bottom of the sea????? 18:03:00 a creeper is above me in the water right now 18:03:06 and i heard noise 18:05:04 oh god it was zombie 18:05:06 fizzie why so scary 18:05:47 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 18:07:31 Please tell me which list items in the "Criticize" section you think are correct or partially correct or whatever opinion 18:07:49 The only thing I can find still referring to that thing is that in squeeze, ia32-libs has 101 conflicts, most of which are of the form "ia32-libsomething", and I think those were how the autogenerated packages were named. It seems to possibly have been abandoned. 18:08:21 zzo38: What section? 18:08:49 The third section, titled "Criticize". 18:09:18 elliott: context seems to be http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 18:09:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:09:38 Err. 18:09:43 Has zzo38 actually linked to that before? 18:09:51 -!- sshc_ has joined. 18:10:09 Oh, so he has. 18:10:55 Vorpal: My new strategy is to swim at night. 18:11:00 I just swim. Constantly. 18:12:02 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:12:54 I died! 18:13:16 drowning? 18:13:58 if you swim, you can't really do anything can you? 18:14:03 ais523: no, I got into a dead end and there was a Creeper there (follows you silently, screams, and then explodes, dealing a lot of damage); I retreated, and got onto some land since I couldn't really swim, 18:14:07 ais523: where there was a zombie 18:14:12 this was after a creeper had exploded on me 18:14:16 the exploding penis? 18:14:19 I fought valiantly, but in a few seconds I died. 18:14:23 oklopol: if you swim you can fight 18:14:25 WHO NEEDS MORE 18:14:34 ais523: NetHack is so boring, make it better 18:14:45 ais523: like maybe cut out all the normal dungeon levels 18:15:58 elliott: Do you think that would make NetHack better? 18:16:55 zzo38: yes 18:18:26 elliott: Then modify it to do that 18:18:45 no 18:20:14 elliott: Gehennom is the most boring part, really; the rest of the game works pretty well 18:20:24 ais523: I find the stock levels pretty boring! 18:20:30 and I'm even used to Gehennom nowadays (it was actually far from boring in my last ascension) 18:20:42 ais523: I watched Wooble ascend -- or was it fail to ascend? -- once; he was on the Planes and it was AWESOME. 18:20:52 He kept farming puddings while lava warped around him and then praying about 100 times. 18:20:58 And then inexplicably teleported to different levels. 18:21:04 I sure didn't understand it but it looked fun. 18:21:09 Also he was overburdened most of the time. 18:21:28 who pudding-farms on the Planes? 18:21:35 ais523: Wooble 18:21:39 actually, that sounds like the sort of thing Wooble /would/ do 18:21:39 ais523: technically, i don't think he farmed them 18:21:48 ais523: but he /did/ offer a ton of them to his god 18:21:51 like 50 in a row 18:22:17 ais523: what was that player that failed to ascend with like 394578348957349579485 gems because of a stupid mistake? 18:22:22 DeathOnAStick 18:22:25 ais523: I watched him try again (and succeed) a while back. 18:22:41 ais523: The guy is... amazingly retro. He played without colours, without any graphics, without using walk, without... anything. 18:22:46 Plain ASCII, all defaults. 18:23:08 ais523: It was utterly boring: he had like 5 pet goblins, and they kept dropping stuff he gave to them, so he moved around and gave it back. Literally that for 15 minutes or so. 18:23:17 I felt his pain^Wutter OCD insanity. 18:24:00 hmph, http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DeathOnAStick doesn't note the achievement 18:24:13 pudding farming on the planes? awesome 18:24:29 maybe he didn't actually ascend 18:24:32 I think he did, though 18:24:35 I recall celebration 18:24:57 ais523: I think the problem with NetHack is that it'd be a lot more fun if 90% of it was automatic :) 18:25:29 elliott, it wouldn't be nethack then though 18:25:38 Vorpal: indeed, it'd be better! 18:26:05 elliott, well that could be argued about. Personally I suspect I would find both playable 18:26:35 Vorpal: I mean, I'm okay at NetHack I think, I can now get to the mines without asking for help every single turn, but it just gets so boring at one point and I give up. 18:26:37 So, which of the criticize you believe/opinion/option? 18:26:45 what? 18:26:51 (@ zzo38) 18:26:55 Vorpal: But I'll always fondly remember the time I killed a member of the Watch and lived to tell the tale. 18:27:01 Vorpal: Admittedly that had all of #nethack working on a solution. 18:27:08 Vorpal: (The solution involved stealing. No joke.) 18:27:09 elliott, heh 18:27:11 Vorpal: I mean this one http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 18:27:17 elliott, stealing his sabre? 18:27:22 Vorpal: Nope, way better. 18:27:30 zzo38, can't run browser atm. Would result in swap trash 18:27:36 elliott, oh? 18:27:49 Vorpal: OK. Will plain text do? 18:27:51 Vorpal: What I had to do was make it to a shop (hard when everyone's trying to kill you!), pick something up, escape the shop without paying, and then RUN AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE SHOP, where the shkeep is -- this is while the Watch are trying to kill me. 18:27:56 Vorpal: Then I repaid his debt. 18:27:59 Vorpal: This pacified the Watch. 18:28:10 zzo38, I'm not likely to look at it anyway. 18:28:11 Vorpal: Evidently, they do not keep track of what they're angry at you for, and so any reconciling you do calms them no matter what it's for. 18:28:26 http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town&action=raw&ctype=text/css 18:28:31 elliott, hahaa 18:28:55 elliott, what did you do to annoy them though? 18:29:04 Vorpal: Killed a Watchman, as I said. 18:29:18 elliott, ah missed that bit 18:29:20 Vorpal: (Why? One of my dogs (I had about 5 pets) started attacking one, and I was dumb enough to join in.) 18:29:23 elliott, and why did you do that? 18:29:29 ah 18:29:30 Vorpal: Most of my pets died at the hands of the Watch after that. RIP. 18:29:41 Vorpal: (I fled to the floor above to regain my HP which was at like 14 by the time I escaped.) 18:29:50 Vorpal: oh, and even after I pacified the Watch, that wasn't the end of it 18:29:57 Vorpal: since I had incredibly low HP from them attacking me 18:30:25 Vorpal: specifically, I sat there to regain health, when a jackal approached me... long story short, I spent the next 150 turns writing Elbereth into the dirt with my fingers. 18:30:29 (Or more.) 18:31:44 elliott: oh, that's when you steal from a shop and then pay for the stuff you stole, in order to show the police you are law-abiding after all honest? 18:31:58 ais523: yes 18:32:15 ais523: apparently, murdering someone, stealing something and then paying it back is better than just murdering someone 18:32:57 ais523: The most epic parts were running into the shop -- it wasn't near the entrance to the floor -- and then running from outside the shop round to the front (I blew a hole in the shop's walls, but the only direction it went was towards the Watch, so I basically walked right into their path) 18:33:02 Which terminals or terminal emulators support all of the escape commands in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code 18:34:01 ais523: what libcs does c-intercal work with? 18:36:28 elliott, a lot I presume. Though possibly with reduced functionality. It needs GCC for some of the weird stuff. 18:36:39 Vorpal: libc not cc 18:36:51 elliott, But if it mostly works on MPW then it mostly works on anything. And MPW definitely didn't use glibc :P 18:36:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 18:37:04 Vorpal: But will it work with dietlibc? :) 18:37:19 try it? 18:37:31 elliott: do you consider Inform 7 an esolang? 18:37:34 Vorpal: But I'd rather ask first! 18:37:38 ais523: probably 18:38:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:40:31 Vorpal: what soundcrad do you use again? 18:42:40 elliott, "Soundblaster Live! 5.1" 18:42:47 assuming you meant card 18:42:50 and not crad 18:43:24 Vorpal: no, what soundCRAD! 18:43:31 Vorpal: (hmm, was there ever a non-5.1 SBL!? :P) 18:43:39 * elliott wonders if you can still purchase Sound Blasters 18:43:50 Soundcrud. 18:44:06 I think there was at least a Live! Value before they tagged 5.1 to the name. 18:44:10 Vorpal: "The DSP had an internal fixed sample rate of 48 kHz, a standard AC'97 clock, meaning that the EMU10K1 always captured external audio-sources at the 48 kHz, then performed a sample-rate conversion on the 48 kHz waveform to the output the requested target rate (such as 44.1 kHz or 32 kHz). This rate-conversion step introduced IM distortion into the downsampled output. The SB/Live had great difficulty with resampling audio-CD source materia 18:44:10 l (44.1 kHz) without introducing audible distortion." 18:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:45:04 elliott, hm. Wouldn't the audio-CD be read by the OS instead? 18:45:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:45:33 Vorpal: Sure, but if the OS sends it as 44.1 kHz there'll be distortion. 18:45:37 Vorpal: Either way, the OS has to resample it. 18:45:40 elliott, anyway. Presumably the software does it. Since the result is great. 18:45:47 Well, not either way, you know what I mean. 18:46:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:47:19 elliott, anyway the obvious solution is to use lcm() ;P 18:48:26 Well, lcm(44100, 48000) = 7056000, so you're proposing a 7 megahertz sound system. 18:49:04 hm green roofs are all the rage nowdays iirc. So why not use some roof space to grow wheat on my castle? :D 18:49:19 elliott, so I am 18:49:32 " On the notices: what we are asking is that you do not link to your fork on the main page of this wiki, instead, please point to this discussion or another page that explains the situation. Linking to the fork on this page (or whichever you point to) is just fine. We are also asking that you make clear that this wiki will still be here, so that anyone who wants to stay or adopt it in the future understands that they can do so. We are generall 18:49:32 y leaving notices in place for about 2 weeks, then removing them to allow the wiki a chance to revive." 18:49:34 --Wikia, being dicks 18:49:40 ais523: what is it that drives them to behave like this? 18:50:35 "To revive" is a nice way of saying "to confuse non-regular visitors". 18:51:28 Heh, they've added a "MakeshiftSitenotice" template to a "minority" of pages to satisfy Wikia, i.e. all the important ones: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:MakeshiftSitenotice 18:51:33 "Please leave this notice here unless you assume responsibility for this page." 18:51:50 "The point is that no one is going to do that, with those notices in place. The right to fork goes two ways, and this wiki should have every chance to be adopted and revived if that's its future." 18:51:57 Oh, fuck off, NetHack players don't need your bullshit. 18:52:13 "I accept that you are moving on, I hope that you will accept that you can't do that and control the wiki you are leaving." 18:52:17 ais523: I think I've figured it out 18:52:38 ais523: Wikia said they were a wiki host, but then they decided, retroactively, that they were an inter-wiki community 18:52:50 ais523: therefore, whoever submitted the request to create the wiki is irrelevant, sort of like Usenet groups 18:53:04 of course, this is phenomenally unfair given that this was *not* their original purpose. 18:53:06 elliott: where specifically was that Wikia message? 18:53:14 ais523: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Wikihack:Community_Portal 18:53:18 near the bottom 18:53:27 ais523: do you think my interpretation of Wikia's thinking is correct? 18:53:50 possibly 18:53:57 ugh, I just had to add ?useskin=monobook to that 18:54:05 I think I should write a Firefox extension to do that automatically 18:54:20 "3.4.4 seems unlikely, unless a major security hole is discovered" --[[NetHackWiki:Next version]] 18:54:24 I like the idea of a security hole in NetHack. 18:54:32 major security holes /have/ been discovered 18:54:36 ais523: how :D 18:54:49 e.g. if you install NetHack suid root, as some distros apparently do, it's possible to compromise the system through them 18:55:15 News of the #tip command was leaked in July 2003 by Pat Rankin in this RGRN post: 18:55:15 In February 2008, Pat Rankin revealed in this post: 18:55:16 elliott: there are exploitable buffer overflows and dangling pointer bugs 18:55:17 In May 2008, Pat Rankin wrote in this post: 18:55:20 In March 2009, Pat Rankin wrote in this post: 18:55:22 Rumors that Pat has since been executed by the other DevTeam members for these frequent breaches of secrecy remain unconfirmed. 18:55:25 I was about to say :) 18:55:28 Pat Rankin is the only devteam member who ever contacts anyone 18:55:50 there's no longer any evidence that the devteam have any members but Pat 18:55:54 The others have all gone and ascended, maybe. 18:56:09 ais523: do the devteam actually *play* nethack? one would think they would have *some* sort of desire to be in the nethack community, if they did 18:56:37 [[When reporting bugs to the DevTeam, it is possible that the responding member of the DevTeam reveals some information about the current development code concerning the reported bug.]] 18:56:59 The right to fork goes two ways, and this wiki should have every chance to be adopted and revived if that's its future. 18:57:17 ais523: that's what made me realise that Wikia don't consider wikis to be owned by their founders or community 18:57:22 unlike their old position as a wiki host 18:57:29 elliott: bhaak and I have been deliberately using that method to attempt to answer questions we needed to know about 3.5, for various reasons 18:57:43 ais523: why did you need to know? 18:58:12 ais523: also, I have a feeling that the next NetHack release might be the last 18:58:40 that implies that there will be a next release 18:58:51 ais523: I mean, they're too conservative to wildly change anything, and they've been incrementally fixing the code since, what, NetHack 3.0.0? 18:58:58 and if the current official devteam wants to abandon NetHack for any reason, there'd be plenty of people available to continue the project 18:59:03 ais523: so I have a feeling that they've spent the last few years combing over every line of code 18:59:11 ais523: making it as perfect as they can 18:59:25 ais523: and then they'll release NetHack 3.5.0, and state that any bugs are official, set-in-stone features 18:59:38 ais523: I can't think of any other explanation for the near-complete silence and *huge* delay even for them. 18:59:50 elliott: then I can use something like the boulder routing overflow to take over the game 19:00:01 ais523: how do you know they won't fix that? 19:00:08 (that one's really subtle, I had to change the code in such a way it was easy to trigger by mistake to find it) 19:00:21 ais523: I mean, they've been getting bug reports on the latest release since 2003 19:00:32 I don't know they won't find and fix it, but it's possible they won't 19:00:38 ais523: not going to report it? 19:01:46 ais523: anyway, just as NetHack is the picking-up of Hack, clearly any community-continued effort on NetHack would have to have a new name 19:01:49 ais523: GitHack? :-P 19:01:54 heh 19:02:07 ais523: (WorldHack? UniHack?) 19:02:11 well, although SporkHack deliberately doesn't want to be NetHack continued, I'm sure UnNetHack wouldn't mind picking up the torch 19:02:17 I think people would likely start form an existing fork 19:02:28 ais523: but they're liberal forks 19:02:30 IRCHack would be pretty accurate for how things are organised nowadays 19:02:33 ais523: they change a lot of gameplay and the like 19:02:37 ais523: ah, IRCHack sounds like the perfect name 19:02:42 elliott: I'm making a non-liberal fork, very slowly as I'm relatively busy 19:03:08 ais523: well, yes, but (1) AceHack is a terrible name :) and (2) it's more a UI fixup, isn't it? 19:03:22 ais523: haha, paxed has only ascended twice 19:03:50 elliott: it's a UI and bug fixup 19:03:56 because that's what I think NetHack needs right now 19:04:10 ais523: I can't think of any other explanation for the near-complete silence and *huge* delay even for them. <-- I have an alternative idea 19:04:13 ais523: just rename it IRCHack, then, when NetHack development stops :) 19:04:18 hopefully, everything should be uncontroversial apart from removing attempts to use deliberately bad UI to balance the game 19:04:19 Vorpal: They're merging with Dwarf Fortress? 19:04:21 Vorpal: I concur. 19:04:22 elliott, the lead developer bet heavily on DNF being released first! 19:04:33 heh 19:04:36 well, that's not long to wait 19:04:38 it's almost out 19:04:44 elliott, indeed. 19:04:45 2011 19:04:53 it better be perfect 19:04:55 elliott, presumably it will be delayed again 19:05:05 Vorpal: well, no, because the original devteam have been kicked off the project :) 19:05:14 Vorpal: and all the perfectionists are presumably gone 19:05:15 hah 19:05:26 now it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Games 19:05:29 elliott, I think the project makes anyone perfectionlist 19:05:31 who bought up the rights 19:05:33 perfectionist* 19:05:51 Vorpal: DNF is more like 5 games that they keep scrapping without releasing :) 19:05:53 every time they rewrite 19:06:02 [[Jason Hall, host of The Jace Hall Show, featured Duke Nukem Forever in the show's premiere episode on June 4, 2008 and described his hands-on play experience with the game as "perfect", ending the segment with "I saw it. They have been working. It's not a myth. You're going to be pleased."[99] In a subsequent interview with 1UP.com, he described the game as "amazing" with the summation, "This might be the only game in history worth waiting 12 y 19:06:02 ears for, perhaps longer.... It was good."[100] On 21 September, 2010, Hall confirmed, in an interview with Triplebeard.com, that there is a surprise for Duke fans when Season 4 of The Jace Hall Show debuts in mid-to-end of October, 2010.[101]]] 19:07:04 ais523: in fact, if I was the Dev Team, I'd release 3.5.0 as 4.0.0 or something 19:07:08 or just 4 19:07:12 don't need 0s if it's the last version! 19:08:07 4.0.0.0.0r0b0a0 Zero Edition 19:10:11 "As we have been committed to publishing cutting-edge games, it's obvious that Duke Nukem Forever belongs on the g.o.d. label," said Mike Wilson, CEO of Gathering. "Between this game and Max Payne, 3D Realms will be regarded as the undisputed king of both first-and third-person shooters by the end of next year. To be part of that has been a dream of Gathering's since our inception." 19:11:29 elliott: what's the date of that quote? 19:11:39 ais523: 2000 19:11:51 personally, I find the most hilarious fact about DNF is that it was under continuous development for most of the time it was missing 19:12:00 they kept doing complete rewrites with different engines, which is what slowed it down 19:12:06 ais523: yep 19:12:09 ais523: (also, "missing"?) 19:14:16 elliott: well, being continuously bumped 19:18:07 ais523: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHackWiki:Next_version_pool look at all the dead, crossed-out fools 19:18:20 [[# December 24th --Feagradze 03:56, June 28, 2010 (UTC) Two days after the end of the world, it will be announced that NetHack version 4.0 is actually a Hollywood slapstick action-comedy starring Izchak Miller as the player character. Slogan: "You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll think. You'll die." It will be availble via Astral Plane Motion Pictures (APMP, for short).]] 19:19:01 [edit] 5736650863230 (Sun entered into red giant phase) 19:19:01 * Version releaced by octopus like alien race - Kogut 19:23:17 [edit] Already 19:23:18 What if they released it on some obscure website no one here knows about? 22:30, August 6, 2010 (UTC) 19:23:19 now that's just silly 19:23:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:23:33 ais523: hmm, there are no bets for 2011 on that list 19:23:39 Conspiracy! 19:24:26 <3 Jolicloud 19:24:29 19:27:20 ais523: hi 19:28:05 ais523: aren't you from germany? 19:31:58 cheater99: The far-northwestern part of Germany. 19:32:05 So far northwest you'd swear you were in the UK. 19:32:15 Gregor: oh 19:32:18 Gregor: ok 19:54:05 * elliott figures out what patches to add to nethack 20:01:19 -!- Peping has joined. 20:01:37 -!- augur has joined. 20:01:44 Hello! maybe you remember me... 20:01:56 I am the guy who revived braincopter 20:02:27 I made a new interpreter and a python script that carves brainfuck to images 20:03:05 the script is kinda lame and not well documented. It's been a while since i finished it, so I don't really know how it works 20:03:18 Any idea where should I upload this all? 20:04:44 hmm doesn't the esolang wiki allow this? 20:04:52 back 20:04:58 Peping: To the esolangs wiki? 20:05:20 I'm not registered. Does it matter? 20:05:26 Peping: You can put code there, either on the Braincopter page, your user page, or a subpage or either. 20:05:38 Peping: It doesn't, but if you want to put it on your user page you will of course have to register. 20:05:47 (which isn't hard) 20:06:10 ok.. I guess I'll register. 20:06:15 youre not registered so you cant run as a candidate 20:06:24 Peping: coppro is our friendly neighbourhood bot 20:07:02 Number of nicks elliott has called a bot: At least 2 20:07:04 someone should fix that typo 20:07:38 someone once thought i was a bot, if elliott was here then, he probably told said person i am one 20:08:04 oh crap... registration. It's night here and the registration page wants me to solve maths... O.o 20:08:18 :D 20:08:20 63-6 = ? :D Ihad to ask my sister 20:08:48 are you 4 or are you too cool to be able to do arithmetic because you're a math major 20:09:19 even i can do 63-6! :P 20:09:24 well... this school year I got A's from all the tests and exams yet 20:09:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:09:32 math 20:09:40 math tests and exams. 20:09:49 so too cool, just not in uni yet 20:09:54 wait 20:10:04 school might be uni i guess 20:10:11 no 20:10:17 you never call uni school. 20:10:19 well it's not. I'm on High 20:10:27 school 20:10:29 i thought Sgeo_ just did today 20:10:40 oklopol: just did what 20:10:45 called uni school 20:10:48 right 20:10:50 plus I'm wasted. I spent the whole day cooking, doing good deeds and programming this useless piece of software 20:10:52 that's an american abomination 20:11:00 i know 20:11:09 Unischool is for everyone. 20:11:12 maybe sgeo can't speak english 20:11:13 :o 20:11:15 in fact we should just bomb the usa 20:11:16 :p 20:11:17 what say you Peping 20:11:24 cheater99: maybe 20:11:44 Peping: you should release it as a python module 20:12:07 cheater99: the interpreter? No. 20:12:19 I don't have the balls to do that 20:12:30 Today was a great day :D 20:12:36 yes it was 20:12:48 it was a national holiday here 20:12:57 here it was a normal day 20:13:25 we had this seminar and we achieved nothing, and then i had this lecture and learned nothing, and then i slept all day 20:13:31 I just hope that nobody will delete my account because they found my last name offensive... Yahoo didn't want to let me register. 20:13:47 what's your last name 20:13:52 today i was doing wfh 20:13:52 Hornych :) 20:13:56 work from home 20:14:12 meaning: i browsed blags and farums and watched bubble gum crisis 20:14:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:14:24 well, the sleeping was me doing work at home 20:14:38 cheater99: did you feed the weed on farmville well? 20:14:43 :D 20:14:49 ? 20:15:02 i don't , 20:15:03 maybe he didn't read your elaboration befor saying that 20:15:05 *before 20:15:13 that was a joke 20:15:17 and just made the same joke as you 20:15:18 ... a crappyone 20:15:18 oh 20:15:21 that was forums 20:15:22 not farms 20:15:28 ...oh 20:15:32 i understand they're both the same edit distance. 20:15:37 'cause I'm tired 20:15:42 but you can't really browse farms. 20:15:43 :) 20:15:43 I just hope that nobody will delete my account because they found my last name offensive... Yahoo didn't want to let me register. Hornych :) 20:15:48 sorry, the secret cabal of eso rejects you 20:15:50 you will be punished 20:15:55 :D 20:16:07 i like hornych 20:16:11 as a name 20:16:25 it would be a cool name for a doctor 20:16:38 is that a polski last name 20:16:47 Joe Hornych, the vagina doctor :D 20:16:48 nope 20:16:52 it's czech 20:17:00 same difference 20:17:02 but I guess poland's got it too 20:17:21 ais523: heh, you know the glibc documentation warning for abort() saying "Future Change Warning: Proposed Federal censorship regulations may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an acceptable way of terminating a program."? 20:17:28 ais523: above it in the HTML source is 20:18:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:18:56 oklopol: is there an esolang where the space/stack/heap/whatever is an iteration of a fractal? 20:18:58 elliott, :D 20:19:12 Vorpal: I wonder what the Christian glibc maintainers think of that. :) 20:19:21 cheater99: i don't think so 20:19:23 well, *glibc documentation 20:19:42 * elliott waits for Vorpal to respond with a "?" indicating he didn't get the original joke 20:19:49 (Am I cynical???? MAYBE) 20:20:07 also i'm not entirely sure what you mean by that 20:20:40 well, you know, most languages have some sort of primary data structure 20:21:00 sure 20:21:22 be it a graph (map reduce etc), the natural numbers (stacks, etc), trees (parallelizable languages) 20:21:24 or well most esolangs anyway, or we disagree on what a "primary data structure is" 20:21:26 *" is 20:21:29 Yes, Lisp with its lists, Tcl with its strings, C with its "here, have 2^n-1 chars of address space. Have fun?" 20:21:37 okay, what pikhq i guess 20:21:40 s/?"/"? 20:21:43 *pikhq said 20:21:44 so basically you're using some sort of construct from mathematics 20:21:56 so, the next step is fractals, of course 20:22:08 for example: real numbers 20:22:28 mm reals 20:23:01 elliott, of course I get it. And no clue what they would think 20:23:02 bbl food 20:23:18 Yes, Lisp with its lists, Tcl with its strings, C with its "here, have 2^n-1 chars of address space. Have fun?" 20:23:21 pikhq: 3-bit bytes 20:23:25 pikhq: voila, non-power-of-two address space 20:23:26 erm 20:23:28 pikhq: 3-bit chars 20:23:44 pikhq: isn't tcl a stack-based language though? 20:23:51 pikhq: and C too. 20:24:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:24:16 DEAR COMPUTER: 20:24:24 I DO NOT WANT JAR FILES OPENED AS ARCHIVES 20:24:30 LOVE, PHANTOM HOOVER 20:24:37 cheater99: Tcl does also have an abomination-stack, yes. 20:24:38 i don't think they are very stack-based 20:24:50 or, well, why not 20:24:55 pikhq, so you push and pop Cthulhu onto it? 20:24:57 (I can't call it a normal stack, because you can do a *lot* of nasty things to that call stack.) 20:25:03 s/they/c/, i don't actually know tcl 20:25:35 pikhq: you can do a lot of nasty things to any stack as long as you can break out to C form your language :p 20:25:53 Phantom_Hoover: No, but you can do pretty much all the same bizarro stack manipulation stuff you could do in non-standard C. 20:26:16 (it frightens me) 20:27:45 pikhq: can you do continuations? 20:28:01 oklopol: "i don't think c are"? 20:28:30 yes yes 20:29:22 It'd be hard, but I'm pretty sure you could. 20:30:38 pikhq: "hard"? you just need to copy the call stack and then replace it 20:30:53 elliott: It's a bit of a hack to actually modify the call stack. 20:31:30 pikhq: can you pop from it without actually returning? 20:31:51 uplevel 20:32:14 Or return -code 20:32:38 pikhq: then just pop everything and push the stuff from the saved stack 20:32:40 then continue 20:34:43 -!- Zuu has joined. 20:34:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Client Quit). 20:34:58 -!- Zuu has joined. 20:35:54 elliott: It's just a bit of a pain to save the actual local variables from said stack. Not impossible, just a pain. 20:36:06 (involving info locals to save and upvar to restore) 20:36:39 pikhq: Get to it. 20:39:51 pikhq: Well come on! 20:46:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Julia_Mandelbrot_relationship_map_300_%2890,000_sets%29_.png 20:46:33 * Zuu comes onto elliott 20:46:35 A Julia set plot showing julia sets for different values of c, the plot resembles the Mandelbrot set 20:46:48 Zuu: Why... thank you? 20:46:51 :P 20:47:17 i figured if it was allright with pikhq, i wouldnt hold back :> 20:47:53 * Zuu might be taking stuffs out of context... but only slighty 20:48:47 ok, so that wasnt fun... *goes elsewhere with his lame jokes* 20:48:57 if you'd said "comes on elliott", it would've been easier to understand 20:49:38 lol 20:50:26 Also a felony 20:51:12 "Choose any monster as a starting pet" 20:51:14 o.m.g.yes. 20:51:32 Gregor: Remember kids, "fellatio" is only N letters away from "felony". 20:51:39 * Zuu cuddles Gregor as a bribe for not telling the cops :P 20:52:03 Vorpal: what's the useful patches apart from that hpcolour one 20:55:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:58:50 cheater99: that looks interesting, but I don't understand what's being displayed 20:59:36 -!- wareya_ has joined. 21:01:10 A Julia set plot showing julia sets for different values of c, the plot resembles the Mandelbrot set 21:01:13 as i said. 21:01:21 ehm.. excuse me. May i have a question? Where exactly do I upload stuff on esolang? it seems like the "Upload file" option on the wiki works only for multimedia, no zip files, no python scripts,... 21:01:24 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:01:25 if you zoom in, it's tiny tiles 21:01:30 each tile is a separate julia set 21:01:33 cheater99, yeah. 21:01:36 Peping: Just put the code in the page... 21:01:41 Source code just gets pasted. 21:01:44 Peping: Surround it with
YOUR CODE
21:01:48 Peping: That'll show it as koed. 21:01:50 Archives should be hosted elsewhere. 21:01:58 Phantom_Hoover: No need for an archive. 21:02:02 At least not here, it's just a script. 21:02:10 elliott: well... not really if I want to upload C source and executables. 21:02:15 Peping: Don't upload executables. 21:02:25 executables are a bad idea 21:02:34 Nobody uses them (or trusts them). Also, nobody uses Windows here, so they're unlikely to be helpful at all. 21:02:35 what are you, some sort of HACKER? 21:02:57 Peping: Just put C code on e.g. User:Peping/Braincopter_interpreter. 21:03:00 oh... sorry, I'm one of the majority of the internet. I am using executables 21:03:01 If it's one file. 21:03:17 Peping: Right, well, nobody really uses Windows here. 21:03:19 no its not. 21:03:21 So executables wouldn't be helpful. 21:03:29 Also, we all have C compilers. 21:04:39 if I want to upload a set of files somewhere, and I want it to last there forever... Where should I put them? 21:04:59 Peping: Your own webhost. 21:05:07 grex 21:05:09 LOLZ. 21:05:30 elliott: untrustworthy, if that's a word 21:05:39 Peping: Or you could submit it to the esoteric archive, but I don't think it's actively maintained at all. 21:05:49 *being 21:06:09 that's where I wanted to put it, but I don't know how to gain access to it. svn? ftp? 21:06:33 oh... svn 21:06:39 I'm reading the readme now 21:07:20 ok.. no, the readme doesn't say anything about uploading stuff 21:08:13 Peping: You have to submit it. 21:08:22 Peping: To Graue, who is busy with other things these days. 21:08:33 Peping: I recommend just condensing the code into one file. 21:08:48 Peping: Failing that, you can put every file separately on http://sprunge.us/ and link to each. 21:09:21 don't listen to elliott, just make multiple pastes, and tell people what file names to store them under 21:09:31 and what dir structure to use 21:10:23 oh dear... too difficult to do on windows. I'll just put it somewhere and make sure that it'll be availibel to download for next 5 years.. I hope somebody will take it over by that time. 21:10:33 i mean the elliott's 21:11:43 what's too difficult? 21:11:46 copy-pasting? 21:11:55 what are you, kindergarten? 21:12:01 Peping: Or use a different pastebin. 21:12:05 Like pastebin.ca 21:12:17 That should be easier on your limited OS. 21:13:41 cheater99: no actually he's a straight-A student 21:14:10 in high school 21:14:23 oklopol: oh, i bet in that case he hasn't got time for childish things like copy-pasting. 21:14:38 sounds likely 21:14:51 maybe his sister could do it for him 21:15:16 only if she has at least two B's 21:15:24 or better yet, D's 21:15:29 and doesn't wear a bra 21:15:57 i get it 21:16:19 :D You dare to mock me :D I'm sorry for wanting advices from you and then solving the problem completely otherwise and far from what you advised... 21:16:30 Peping: You sound like a moron. 21:16:36 I know.. 21:16:40 no one's mocking you 21:16:41 and i didn't want to 21:16:49 oklopol: I TOTALLY AM (or am i?) 21:17:23 well elliott is, but i was just faking mocking you 21:17:29 Vorpal: what's the useful patches apart from that hpcolour one <-- menu colour 21:17:31 definitely 21:17:35 elliott is a faker 21:18:03 elliott, allows you to colour code your inventory based on regexp 21:18:15 (or glob, but no one uses that variant) 21:18:42 helps a lot to avoid YASD due to mixing up cursed and blessed items :P 21:18:55 and NAO has it 21:19:32 Vorpal: i tend to read things before using them, but ok 21:19:38 Vorpal: regexp sounds like pain, is there a predefined set 21:20:23 elliott, well there is a common one used by many on nao 21:20:31 which is fairly good 21:20:48 ask ais for the name 21:21:37 you just copy and paste that to your .nethackrc 21:22:11 Vorpal: ais doesn't like to be bugged about nethack. 21:22:19 okay 21:22:20 where's oerjan btw? 21:22:25 well I don't remember the name of it 21:22:27 elliott, and I don 21:22:27 olsner: in some sort of crisis 21:22:31 yuck 21:22:34 don't have it handy here 21:22:42 elliott, really? is that confirmed? 21:22:46 olsner: shell account used for email/irc is gone, last we've heard of him in an esolang-related space is today: 21:22:52 You may be anal-retentive, but apparently not anal-retentive enough to keep the email address on your home page up to date! What manner of perfidious chicanery is this perfidious chicanery? Please email me your working email address, if you have one. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, the guy who emailed Ørjan only to receive a 554 User Account has Expired response from nvg.ntnu.no, November somethingth, 2010 21:22:53 Sorry, I honestly cannot manage to handle this right now. --Ørjan 04:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC) 21:22:56 first message is from cpressey 21:23:36 ah good that he is alive then 21:23:50 elliott, how did cpressey get hold of an up-to-date email? 21:23:59 Vorpal: He didn't? 21:24:09 elliott, how did he get a reply then? 21:24:15 IT'S ON THE WIKI X_X 21:24:22 ah 21:24:27 Vorpal: We knew that he is alive all this time, he's posted comments to a blog... 21:24:33 argh wtf. *kicks weird window redrawing lag 21:24:34 * 21:24:44 elliott, hm 21:24:46 okay 21:24:50 Vorpal: did you build night shelters even when starting off in peaceful? 21:25:11 elliott, yes. To get into the spirit of things 21:25:21 elliott, anyway atm I'm admiring my green roof 21:25:22 Vorpal: Psht, you're not nearly lazy enough. 21:25:33 I'm glad he's still around somewhere, then I can just wait for his crisis to resolve itself and not worry about it 21:25:51 -!- Hiant has joined. 21:27:33 I have created a bit of a puzzle, and wanted to know if anyone was interested in giving it a try. 21:27:47 Psht, I built my own night shelter. 21:27:53 elliott, plan: become completely self-sufficient without going out the door :P 21:27:57 On the first night. 21:28:11 elliott, thus I plan an indoor friendly mob garden too 21:28:32 Are you talking about minecraft? 21:28:33 it is easy to "lead" the grass spreading in 21:28:33 Vorpal: lawl 21:28:36 Hiant: yep 21:28:38 Hiant: like alwasy 21:28:40 Hiant, indeed 21:28:41 *always 21:28:46 elliott, always the past week or so :P 21:29:01 haha, I thought you were talking about real life 21:29:03 elliott, I assume it will die down in here some time soon 21:29:06 I love abusing the fact that doors are two blocks tall. 21:29:10 olsner, suure :P 21:29:20 Hiant, abusing that? how? 21:29:30 Vorpal: "become completely self-sufficient without going out the door" sounds exactly like something you'd plan in real life 21:29:37 olsner, hah :P 21:29:42 olsner, that would be awesome 21:29:49 and Phantom_Hoover built his own shelter, like they did before prefab housing 21:30:01 Vorpal: "become completely self-sufficient without going out the door" sounds exactly like something you'd plan in real life 21:30:01 Vorpal: Simple. If you place one at, lets say, the bottom of the ocean, it creates a 2 block tall space of air. 21:30:02 that's easy 21:30:13 online shopping + dedicate basement to compacted waste storage 21:30:16 olsner, "indoor friendly mob" doesn't sound like real life though :P 21:30:21 + recycle as much as possible 21:30:25 (work from home) 21:30:32 "mob garden" makes no sense at all 21:30:32 Hiant, easier to use reeds then. 21:30:45 Hiant, or why not ladders 21:30:54 so I have no idea if it's something that can or can't be done in reality 21:30:55 reeds at least is "cheaper" 21:30:58 olsner: there was a reddit IAmA about someone who was living off his parents' money doing this, basically, of course to obsessive levels -- in six years had never left the house, not even to take out the trash 21:31:04 olsner, actually, I became a caveman. 21:31:09 of course he defended this as just being coincidental :) 21:31:20 Vorpal: True, but then again you can close doors, which I used to create an underwater shifting labyrinth. 21:31:31 And very nearly ended up in the open. 21:31:35 Hiant, steel doors then? 21:31:45 Hiant, also hm. Couldn't you just swim up? 21:31:53 I shall try knocking out the wall and putting a door in. 21:32:45 Vorpal: That is the best part....if you place enough sand on top of the doors, and then dig at it from the bottom, it slowly creates a nigh-inescapable current. (for mobs 21:32:54 Vorpal: Holy shit! Underground lava lake. 21:32:57 Hiant, haha 21:33:10 elliott, uh. That is fairly common 21:33:23 Vorpal: Not this kind... 21:33:25 elliott, you are near the bottom 21:33:28 elliott, screenshot 21:33:38 Vorpal: it is more the context that is unusual 21:33:39 of this whole cave 21:33:41 Vorpal: I am thinking of a maze of creepers, with the center containing the only entrance to my base. 21:34:03 Hiant, creepers would probably be more painful for you than anyone trying to enter 21:34:30 Hiant, unless you use obsidian. As I do for the lower parts of the walls of this fort I'm working on 21:34:37 elliott, screenshot then 21:34:54 Vorpal: It would keep me on my toes. Plus, a well made redstone wire system would allow me to control the shape of the entire thing. 21:35:18 Vorpal: Enter the right combination, and a simple path opens up. Fail, and be doomed! 21:35:19 Hiant, true. 21:35:40 Hiant, but hm what would prevent someone from just plopping down in the middle? 21:35:48 assuming mp 21:35:55 if not mp then less of an issue 21:36:35 Vorpal: Not mp, but if it was, I would rig the entire system to a redstone clock, causing it to shift every few min. 21:36:50 OK, so now I have my own little 3x3x2 cave in a cliff face with a door to the outside. 21:37:00 Vorpal: I'm trying to build my way up to the surface but it's not happening! :P 21:37:29 I want to make a shaft downwards, then a tower above. 21:38:09 elliott, hm? 21:38:16 elliott, what is not happening? 21:38:25 elliott, also presumably you could go up the way you went down 21:38:33 Vorpal: I lost my way and fell a lot. 21:39:10 elliott, walk carefully and mark your path 21:39:28 Vorpal: Shut up. :P 21:39:30 elliott, also: dig a diagonal tunnel up. (45°) And I hope you carry enough wood to make more pickaxes if need be. 21:39:36 Vorpal: I just built a workbench underneath my feet so I can get a new pickaxe. 21:39:49 if you are short on wood you want to use iron. Since that will last longer 21:39:56 or even diamond if you found any 21:40:21 DAYLIGHT! 21:40:22 and conserve wood. Use coal for furnace if you need to smelt iron 21:40:24 nice 21:40:31 Vorpal: I have almost nothing; I just started this game. 21:40:31 elliott, so where is the screenshot of that lava light 21:40:34 I do have 28 coal though. 21:40:38 Vorpal: The lava itself was boring. 21:40:50 Vorpal: But there were lavafalls and waterfalls literally all over the place, near the surface. 21:41:06 elliott, there was no still lava lake near the surface I bet 21:41:14 Well, no. 21:41:20 Ha! I emerged near the place I first entered that cave system. 21:41:20 and still lava lake = way better. Add water and get obsidian 21:41:26 -!- Peping has left (?). 21:41:40 Vorpal: I wish that portals worked horizontal... 21:42:04 Hiant, oh? why? 21:42:08 Vorpal: There was water nearby too. Guess I missed an opportunity. 21:42:29 elliott, you need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian 21:42:48 elliott, and you would have needed a bucket presumably (3 iron) 21:42:53 Vorpal: Because then mining obsidian would create 2 gates, the one formed from mining, and the one made by the mined obsidian. 21:43:05 Hiant, heh 21:43:41 Vorpal: It can be such a pain waiting for the obsidian to break. 21:44:39 true 21:44:55 Hiant, I should know. Let me find url to screenshots of the fort I'm working on 21:45:10 Hiant: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/ 21:45:13 Vorpal: You're welcome. 21:45:14 thanks :P 21:45:41 All of this and Vorpal still plays on Peaceful. 21:45:48 oh nice yellow text. "Superfrgilist[... you know the rest and I'm lazy]" 21:45:55 frag* 21:46:35 elliott, I plan to switch once the fort exterior is complete :P 21:46:41 elliott, and remember, this is my first game 21:46:50 Vorpal: That's still your first game?! 21:46:54 After a week or two? 21:47:02 elliott, yes I build on the same world of course 21:47:06 elliott, why shouldn't I? 21:47:08 elliott, I have another game, not on peaceful. 21:47:12 Vorpal: Very nice. I dont really have any screenshots of my fort, but if you want, imagine sealab. (Its my inspiration for this one) 21:47:13 that is all new map gen 21:47:14 i should go see him 21:47:15 Vorpal: You haven't died once? :P 21:47:19 oerjan that is 21:47:19 oklopol: who 21:47:22 oh 21:47:23 i was scrolled up again 21:47:24 elliott, I died from falling in lava twice :P 21:47:30 oklopol: i think he might not welcome that :P 21:47:45 he certainly would, i'm really nice 21:47:46 Hiant, sealab means nothing to me 21:48:15 Vorpal, its an old show. Lots of underwater glass domes and boxy labs. 21:48:19 mhm 21:48:22 after forcing him to let me in his apartment, i'd be really nice 21:48:35 Hiant, I tested around this fort with TNT to make sure it is creaper safe. 21:48:36 :P 21:48:45 oklopol: doesn't he live with his parents 21:48:47 well the doors are a bit of a problem 21:48:52 elliott: lol no 21:48:53 have to figure out something 21:49:22 oklopol: yes he does iirc 21:49:26 oklopol: he's mentioned such 21:49:26 My suggestion would be a chute of obsidian with a ladder, Vorpal 21:49:43 ...no 21:49:48 Hiant, hm can't creepers climb iirc? 21:49:55 according to the minecraft wiki 21:50:15 I haven't seen one doing that yet though 21:50:25 oklopol: i swear he's said so. 21:50:27 Vorpal, really? I wouldnt know, I normally build my bases underwater, where mobs dont matter. 21:51:19 Hiant, I have a deep minecraft transit system. iirc the map viewer placed it at depth 40 or such (0 = bedrock) 21:51:25 the only concrete thing i remember is is that he does not see his father all the time, therefore they don't live in the same place 21:51:37 isisisis 21:51:38 oklopol: i don't recall him saying that 21:51:41 Gotten from another channel, may be old-old: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc1ckr9rF21qbmqmlo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1290094944&Signature=vCmBniQ84G2qMF0YqjTiDEaZubw%3D 21:51:50 most of our conversations are in pm 21:51:57 fizzie: It's reddit-front-page-old. 21:52:00 oklopol: SNEAKY 21:52:09 yes 21:52:39 Vorpal: I have a solution for your door problem: Ladder, terminating in steel door. Make it controlled by a button. 21:52:43 anyway i would certainly like to see proof one way or the other 21:52:54 maybe i should put up a message on esolang 21:53:10 Hiant, hm a steel door can still be exploded by a creeper 21:53:28 Hiant, if it is standing next to it 21:54:23 Hiant, anyway my fort will have defences when it is done. An inner moat of lava. (There is a nether portal inside the fort that end up quite close to a huge lava cavern. Should be quite easy to get lots of lava) 21:54:32 then netherstone/cactus barrier outside 21:54:54 the netherstone being on fire 21:54:57 Vorpal: Thats the trick. Make it so that _it_cant_stand_next_ to it. Make the chute 1x6 tall. Then have the ladder just end, terminating at the base of the door. 21:55:14 Vorpal: 6 tall, that is. 21:55:17 hm 21:55:33 There is no where to stand. 21:55:50 Hiant, on the top of the ladder? or would the ladder only be inside the chute? 21:56:15 and where would the door be? at the top or the bottom? 21:56:53 Vorpal: The ladder would only be inside the chute. The door would be the top. From the bottom, the blocks would be: ladder, ladder, ladder, ladder, Steel Door, Steel Door. 21:56:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:57:23 Hiant, oh and my fort will have towers in the corners on the upper level. brick towers. I found quite a lot of clay. I'm in the process of smelting it now 21:57:46 Hiant, ah but couldn't it stand on the very top of the ladder? I know I managed that 21:58:19 Vorpal: At the top? Like with no clear space to go? Then yes, I suppose so. 21:59:06 Hiant, hm 21:59:35 Hiant, or would the door be on a different side of the shaft than the ladder? 21:59:37 that would work 21:59:41 maybe 21:59:48 a bit tricky to get in and out perhaps 21:59:58 and to open as well 22:00:36 sure a button, but good luck not falling down yourself 22:00:50 Vorpal, its hard to tell. But it seems like a precaution against a rare danger, so the door on the same side as the ladder would work fine, I suppose. 22:01:19 true 22:01:42 Also, I have been working on a esolang, and realized it has fantastic puzzle potential. I was wondering of anyone would like to give it a try. 22:01:46 Hiant, and I presume it would need to be iron. which would be tricky to open while on the ladder 22:01:55 Hiant, oh? details? 22:01:58 Vorpal: Yes, Iron. 22:03:01 Hiant, about this esolang then: details? 22:03:17 Vorpal: Here are the rules; There are exactly 9 built-in rules. The only valid instructions are hexadecimal digits. You give me an input string, and I will give you the output (Its deterministic). 22:03:41 Hiant, f00 22:03:55 Vorpal: The goal is to try to derive as many rules as possible. And calculating. 22:04:06 Hiant, well I gave you one :P 22:04:25 Hiant: f00fc7c8 22:04:35 Hiant: we've talked about doing this kind of challenges 22:04:43 i also have one 22:04:59 oklopol: Really? I have heard no such thing... 22:05:06 is the problem: given a blackbox interpreter, deduce the language 22:05:24 we've talked about this twice, quickly 22:05:34 Vorpal: F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8 22:05:49 ...no. 22:05:52 Vorpal said f00. 22:05:54 I said f00fc7c8. 22:06:03 Unless you ACTUALLY ENCODED a reference to f00f in the language, which I find unlikely :P 22:06:06 elliott, maybe your string was output of mine 22:06:18 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F00f 22:06:22 I find that unlikely. 22:06:22 oklopol: I see, and the conclusion of that discussion was? Sorry, I was confused. I will pair input/output from now on. 22:06:23 elliott, yes I know 22:06:35 Hiant: What is "F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8" the output of? 22:06:52 Hiant, conclusions so far: the language has non-deterministic cross-talk ;P 22:07:07 elliott: f00fc7c8 22:07:18 Hiant: What is the output of "f0", which Vorpal said? 22:07:19 elliott: => F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8 22:07:30 elliott, I said f00 22:07:32 not f0 22:07:34 Er, right. 22:07:42 Hiant: And what is the output of "f00"? 22:07:51 F0=>F00 22:07:56 Hiant: And what is the output of "f00"? 22:08:03 hm 22:08:13 F00=>F00 22:08:16 hm 22:08:19 Hiant, A 22:08:35 Hiant: 0 22:08:36 Hiant: 1 22:08:37 Hiant: 2 22:08:38 Hiant: 3 22:08:39 Hiant: ... 22:08:40 Hiant: F 22:08:42 A=>No output. Nonterminating. 22:08:45 Hiant: I trust you to interpolate the values. 22:09:00 Vorpal: all we need to do is come up with a program that halts iff the Goldbach conjecture is true 22:09:04 Vorpal: and we have him CORNERED 22:09:31 elliott, not riemann? 22:09:38 Vorpal: Goldbach is easier. 22:09:41 0=>0, 1=>Nonterminating., 2=>0 22:09:44 Well. 22:09:46 Maybe not. 22:09:48 Vorpal: Collatz is easiest. 22:09:57 Hiant: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F plz :P 22:10:06 elliott, hm 22:10:09 3=> Nonterminating 22:10:12 brb 22:10:15 back 22:10:27 Vorpal: YOU WEREN'T AWAY 22:10:28 brb 22:11:02 back 22:11:35 4=>Nonterminating, 5=>Nonterminating, 6=>(Nothing), 7=>7, 8=>Nonterminating 22:11:57 hm 22:12:53 Hiant, really hard. Can you tell us some leads? Such as if it has a stack or a heap or a tape or a queue or whatever? 22:13:05 9=>Nonterminating, A..E => Nonterminating. F=> F 22:13:21 better lead 22:13:28 make a few example programs 22:13:32 Vorpal: Simple. There is only a datastring. And that datastring is the execution string itself. 22:13:38 ah 22:13:46 Hiant, so self-modifying? Is it TC 22:13:53 or don't you know that yet 22:14:06 Vorpal: Also, no i/o. And no idea about TC. 22:14:19 A proof would be...interesting. 22:14:32 ah. Then that might be trickier 22:14:47 if it had been trivially TC then it might have been similar to something else 22:15:28 Hiant, so what about 330 22:15:35 Have an example (i/o): 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F / 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9 22:15:55 330 => Nonterminating. 22:16:16 are those |-characters part of the input/output? 22:16:37 olsner: They delineate commands, nothing else. 22:16:58 show execution trace 22:17:11 Hiant, 033 ? 22:17:12 e.g. 330 -> 303 -> 330 -> ... 22:17:15 plz 22:17:17 kthx 22:17:29 elliott: Okay, but remember it does not terminate... 22:17:44 precisely 22:17:58 tell us the trace every time 22:18:09 or it's to o hard 22:18:12 by far 22:18:17 *too 22:18:23 so 22:18:26 330? 22:18:29 Hiant, well show us the pattern it repeats in? 22:18:32 Hiant, or such 22:18:33 330 22:18:35 3|3|0 22:18:37 3|3|0|0 22:18:39 3|3|0|0|3 22:18:40 ah 22:18:40 3|3|0|0|3|0 22:18:42 3|3|0|0|3|0|3 22:18:44 3|3|0|0|3|0|3|0 22:18:44 heh 22:18:49 Hiant, and so on? 22:18:53 see that helps :) 22:18:56 a lot 22:18:56 indeed 22:19:04 Well, the pattern matures, but yes. 22:19:13 now we know that at least this configuration appends to the end 22:19:23 rather than, say, inserting 22:19:33 Hiant, what about 033? 22:20:20 033 22:20:21 0|3|3 22:20:23 0|3|3|3 22:20:24 0|3|3|3|0 22:20:26 0|3|3|3|0|3 22:20:27 0|3|3|3|0|3|3 22:20:29 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3 22:20:31 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3|0 22:20:32 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3|0|3 22:20:42 ETC... 22:20:45 hm 22:20:48 okay 22:20:55 then 0 is *not* terminate program now 22:21:13 Hiant, what about 0 ? 22:21:29 yeah, is it still 0=>0 or does it depend on time 22:21:30 you said it terminated so 22:21:36 0 22:21:37 0 22:21:39 ah 22:21:46 Hiant, so does that terminate? 22:21:48 hm 22:21:55 I wonder what termination condition is 22:22:19 Vorpal: Yes. In 0 steps. 22:22:30 x = x' 22:22:33 presumably 22:22:38 elliott, that is quite likely 22:22:46 Hiant, do you know of anything that terminates but takes more than one step to do so? 22:23:00 Vorpal: Quite a few, actually. 22:23:15 ah 22:23:52 Hiant, what about the empty program? 22:24:32 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F 22:24:33 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F 22:24:35 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F 22:24:36 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F|8 22:24:38 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9 22:24:40 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9 22:24:41 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9|2 22:24:43 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9|2 22:24:45 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2 22:24:47 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9 22:24:47 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9 22:24:49 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9 22:24:50 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9 22:24:52 Vorpal: What empty program, 0? 22:25:30 Hiant, the one of length 0 22:25:44 or is that invalid? 22:26:08 Not invalid, but there is no execution, so it instantly terminates. 22:26:13 ah 22:26:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:26:49 Hiant, okay we know the termination condition now. That the program doesn't change any more 22:26:58 Hiant, are we right that is one of the rules? 22:27:07 he basically just said it 22:27:22 * Sgeo attempted to show his Perl professor some Haskell 22:27:22 his example terminates, but actually it spams the same thing forever 22:27:42 hm 22:27:44 Vorpal: No. But I will give you the only built-in failsafe: A program of length 0 terminates. (This is not a rule of the language) 22:27:54 what 22:28:18 well, not that it would help anyway 22:28:31 hm 22:28:41 Hiant, tricky :D 22:28:44 Its a rule of the interpreter, so that execution will end (besides the one other way to end it). 22:28:49 ah 22:29:12 Or two, depending on how you look at it (thats a hint) 22:29:31 Hiant, hm 0330 and 00330 22:29:34 so Hiant: are you sure the datastring is all the data there is, and there's nothing like an instruction pointer? 22:29:38 brb 22:29:41 (I have an idea...) 22:30:02 (trying to detect if it is a cellular automaton) 22:30:08 it's not 22:30:18 sry 22:30:35 oklopol, how would you know? 22:30:54 i know because one rule is executed at a time, and it either changes middle, or appends shit 22:31:05 oklopol, hm 22:31:06 Back. oklopol: There is an order of execution, if thats what you mean. Other then that, there is no other way to store information. 22:31:09 good point 22:32:54 If you want to call it such, there is an 'instruction pointer', but there is only one command that affects it in any way. And it always, every turn, moves only 1 instruction. No jumps, ect. 22:33:30 Make that 2 commands -Hiant remembers that its important to display the puzzle correctly- 22:33:44 hm 22:34:08 Hiant, fe 22:34:14 (trace of that) 22:34:32 FE 22:34:33 FE 22:34:35 FE 22:34:47 efefefefefefefe 22:34:48 ah 22:34:52 oklopol, sssh 22:34:56 That is only 1 step, by the way. 22:34:57 okokokokokokokokokokokokoko 22:34:57 Hiant: please show instruction pointer in traces 22:35:13 elliott: That might make it too easy... 22:35:28 but we're too lazy to do a hard puzzle 22:35:36 and too stupid too, probably 22:35:44 Hiant: the proposal is near-impossible already :) 22:35:45 *puzzle 22:36:01 Is that alright with everyone? I will need some time to hand write it for longer ones, but sure. 22:36:15 Hiant: Anyway, you said that it always moves one :) 22:36:21 Hiant: write a program to do it :P 22:36:33 FE 22:36:34 BEGIN 22:36:36 FE 22:36:38 ^ 22:36:39 END 22:36:41 FE 22:36:45 hm 22:36:50 alas I have to leave now 22:36:55 early morning tomorrow 22:37:00 night → 22:37:03 Hiant: eh? 22:37:05 i don't understand 22:37:10 i understand 22:37:22 Hiant: I would just put ^ before whatever the IP is on 22:37:22 e.g. 22:37:23 ^FE 22:37:46 Okay then. 22:38:06 Hiant: does this thing really have 9 rules? :P 22:38:13 Yes. I promise. 22:38:31 that's more than brainfuck! :P 22:38:41 well, arguably 22:39:04 If you want, I could give you some hints. 22:39:13 Hiant: are there any rules like "instructions 3, 7 and F do nothing" 22:39:16 that are actually three in disguise 22:39:32 No. All instructions do 'something' 22:39:58 Hiant: no i mean 22:40:03 are there any rules about what N instructions do for N>1 22:40:13 thus being N rules in 1 22:40:26 oklopol: phrase that better :P 22:40:37 Hmmm. Yes. The instructions exist as pairs. 22:40:45 aha 22:40:47 9 rules for 16 opcodes seems low 22:40:56 i am capable of interpreting that output 22:41:16 olsner: that's why i asked that 22:41:32 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:42:40 Obviously. 22:43:54 Okay. Two more hints. 22:44:57 Hiant: this would be better if you had a bot that could run it, or something 22:46:51 Yes, but I am not an expert on such things. Hint Two: Each opcode acts on another opcode, the instruction pointer, or ends the program. 22:47:59 Hiant: An expert on... programming? 22:49:06 I would consider myself a ... creative amateur at programming. 22:49:24 Hiant: Are you able to code an interpreter for the language? 22:49:37 I already have. 22:49:44 elliott: yes. 22:50:06 Hiant: are you able to use the "print" statement? 22:50:19 Hiant: 'cuz IRC is just... print USER foo foo foo foo 22:50:21 NICK foobarbaz 22:50:23 JOIN #esoteric 22:50:27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah blah 22:50:53 brb 22:51:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:10 elliott: eh, I am rather content with the way it is right now. I was just hoping to get people thinking, not kill them with curiosity. Honesty, I might just put the entire thing on esolang. 22:53:31 Hiant: My curiosity is killing me ;__; 22:53:33 For I am a cat. 22:54:33 Oh, and Hint Three: The internal representation of each command is a nibble. 22:55:05 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:55:49 elliott:^ 22:56:24 Hiant: Hmm.# 22:56:26 *no # 23:00:20 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:24 -!- cal153 has joined. 23:06:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:57 Vorpal: I set up a Minecraft server locally, dear god what have I done. 23:07:08 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]). 23:15:47 elliott: Is it worth doing so? 23:16:02 pikhq: Doing what? 23:16:20 Minecraft server on localhost 23:16:31 pikhq: Oh, absolutely pointless if you're the only user. 23:16:43 pikhq: Well. You can give yourself obsidian if you want. 23:16:49 That's quite handy. 23:19:23 pikhq: (So you've got the Minecraft bug too?) 23:22:07 Haven't played it. 23:23:50 pikhq: You should! There is no way back... 23:25:46 pikhq: Would you like a copy of inst(1)? :P 23:26:11 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:26:24 Mmf 23:26:30 HOW CAN YOU RESIST 23:34:22 -!- Hiant has joined. 23:35:23 Well, I have returned. Would any of you (elliot, Vorpal, etc) like to continue? 23:37:32 With the esolang puzzle? 23:38:19 *elliott 23:38:23 Hiant: Vorpal's embedded himself. 23:39:32 elliott: I haven't the faintest idea what that means. 23:40:07 i have 23:40:14 back (had to print something) 23:40:18 i'm so much smarter than other people today 23:40:22 Hiant: put himself into bed 23:40:26 Hiant, presumably it means I went to sleep. 23:40:26 Vorpal: night → 23:40:35 elliott, yes I forgot to print something I needed tomorrow 23:40:42 elliott, saw highlights when I was doing it 23:41:03 Vorpal: I set up a Minecraft server locally, dear god what have I done. 23:41:05 well... 23:41:10 I *think* 23:41:15 and correct me if I'm wrong 23:41:16 that 23:41:23 you have setup a local minecraft server! 23:41:29 elliott, :P 23:41:32 Vorpal: I GAVE MYSELF PORTALS 23:41:34 just portal innards 23:41:35 and built them 23:41:46 it did very little 23:41:51 elliott, err? 23:41:57 Vorpal: everything has an object ID 23:42:00 oh 23:42:00 hah 23:42:03 Vorpal: including the inside of portals to nether 23:42:07 Vorpal: inexplicably, portals have an inventory icon! 23:42:18 They are actual blocks, afterall. 23:42:22 elliott, I believe everything has 23:42:43 elliott, anyway iirc portals are not yet working in mp 23:42:50 elliott, try with an inventory editor locally 23:42:59 Vorpal: too lazy :P 23:43:04 But they cant exist, or function, for long without an obsidian frame. 23:43:16 heh 23:45:04 ah done printing. Night now → 23:45:25 Anyways, I have decided to spill the beans about that esolang. Anyone still interested? 23:45:49 Hiant: Sure. 23:47:12 The rules are as follows: 23:47:13 There are sixteen commands: 23:47:15 0/0000---Append the next command to the end of the program. 23:47:16 1/0001---Invert the second bit of the next command. 23:47:18 2/0010---Invert the third bit of the next command. 23:47:19 3/0011---Append previous command to the end of the program. 23:47:21 4/0100---Invert the last bit of the previous command. 23:47:23 5/0101---Reverse execution flow. 23:47:25 6/0110---Delete the previous command. 23:47:26 7/0111---End Program 23:47:28 Commands starting of the form 1--- can not be altered. 23:47:29 Commands A..F are the 1--- form of 1..7 23:49:03 Hiant: I would not have guessed the bitwise stuff :P 23:49:17 Hiant: Looks interesting. Have you seen Bitwise Cyclic Tag? 23:49:22 Hiant: It is similar, but even more minimal. 23:49:40 elliott: I had mentioned the nibble rule. And yes, I drew inspiration from BCT. 23:50:05 Well, yes, you did, but the bitwise stuff :P 23:52:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:56 -!- Hiant has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).