00:03:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what epoll?
00:04:27 <elliott> Vorpal: for servers
00:05:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well it depends on what sort of server
00:05:22 <elliott> Vorpal: httpd in this case :P
00:05:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it wouldn't work for IRC. Then you would need IPC
00:05:30 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, indeed
00:05:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I just saw some pointless mini-httpd benchmarks and it was amazing what did well
00:05:53 <elliott> Vorpal: for instance, the top performer was using select()
00:05:55 <elliott> for portability
00:05:58 <elliott> (this on linux)
00:06:04 <elliott> Vorpal: and there was another top one that forked, iirc
00:06:10 <elliott> worth a try right? :P
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00:07:07 <elliott> Vorpal: ignoring Connection: close -- what could possibly go wrong? (parsing headers is hard!)
00:08:11 <Vorpal> elliott, err
00:08:15 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it hard?
00:08:25 <Vorpal> and why would you ignore that one?
00:08:39 <elliott> Vorpal: TAKES TIME (and because it's MORE FASTER if i keep the connection open forever)
00:08:44 <elliott> note: header parsing is on the todo :P
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00:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott, like, finding out what file to get? ;P
00:09:01 <elliott> yep
00:09:04 <elliott> constant right now
00:09:05 <elliott> for SPEED
00:09:08 <Vorpal> :P
00:09:24 <Vorpal> elliott, good for "sorry main server broken" but that is all
00:09:44 <elliott> OR FOR SERVING ONE FILE A LOT
00:09:51 <elliott> i don't even read()
00:10:04 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/httpd$ nc localhost 8080
00:10:06 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/httpd$
00:10:06 <elliott> hmm.
00:10:12 <elliott> oh
00:10:13 <elliott> lawl
00:11:00 <elliott> Vorpal: ITW ORKS
00:11:01 <elliott> *IT WORKS
00:11:40 <Vorpal> well duh since you are not parsing anything it is easy :P
00:12:30 <elliott> Vorpal: http://91.105.107.242:8081/
00:12:31 <elliott> Vorpal: TELL ME HOW FAST IT IS
00:13:25 <elliott> Vorpal: just realised you could implement cat with sendfile X-D
00:13:51 <zzo38> elliott: That server seems to not care about the request, and always sends headers and a HTML file.
00:14:00 <elliott> zzo38: Quickly, though!
00:14:19 <Vorpal> elliott, a few seconds to load
00:14:31 <elliott> Vorpal: to be fair, this is a dsl connection in the uk :P
00:14:40 <fizzie> elliott: Only if you don't mind being able to cat only mmapable files into sockets, at least on Linux.
00:14:42 <zzo38> elliott: It is sufficiently fast
00:14:45 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. Which will dominate for all servers
00:14:57 <elliott> fizzie: Well, true.
00:16:09 <fizzie> There is the slightly more general splice(2) mechanism, but even that requires at least one pipe, since it's basically just pipe buffer management.
00:16:10 <Vorpal> what about splice?
00:16:18 <zzo38> It ought to read the request at least to determine whether or not to send headers (or if it should send only headers). And it isn't very useful if there is only one file on there, anyways.
00:16:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, aargh you beat me to it by one second
00:17:02 <elliott> zzo38: What if the file was the best file of all files?
00:17:39 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't matter; there still needs multiple files.
00:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, note: zzo doesn't work that way.
00:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: ..."work that way"? xD
00:18:50 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. You will have to figure it out
00:19:02 <elliott> He doesn't run on batteries.
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00:19:44 <fizzie> Solaris 10 sendfile(2) can copy a source "regular file" into a destination that can be either "regular file" or af_inet/af_inet6 sock_stream socket. So you can do cp(1) with sendfile.
00:19:50 <Vorpal> elliott, an astute and accurate observation.
00:19:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
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00:21:58 <fizzie> Solaris sendfile also can send a buffer instead of a file by using SFV_FD_SELF as the source fd. It's not very clear to me how that's an improvement over just write()ing the buffer.
00:22:30 <elliott> Aww, http://localhost:8081/ is frozen on one page.
00:23:10 <Vorpal> elliott, read a thread about someone explaining a (now fixed) griefing method on the minecraft forums. Using big O notation to explain why it was a problem (O(n) placing, O(n²) cleanup). This comment was really sad: "anyway 0(n) always equals 0 because 0 x (n) is like 0 times 1 or 0 times a centilion its still 0 your math makes no sense"
00:23:34 <Vorpal> someone missed 0 != O
00:23:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I would pulverise their skull.
00:23:44 <Vorpal> elliott, who?
00:23:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Whoever wrote that.
00:23:51 <zzo38> If you need simplicity and somehow you need to send only one file (I am unsure why), you do not need to use HTTP at all, you can use the gopher protocol, and assuming it is a binary file and that the server does not wait for the selector string, it will be easy to download:  nc x.example.org 70 > the_file
00:24:05 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I don't think they took university math though
00:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott, probably US education or Swedish education
00:24:23 <zzo38> So, no special software is needed; just netcat is good enough to download this file.
00:24:24 <Vorpal> both are shit :P
00:24:28 <elliott> Vorpal: It is one thing to be ignorant; it is another entirely to assume that you are more knowledgeable.
00:24:36 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
00:24:39 <elliott> zzo38: i didn't write netcat though.
00:24:44 <elliott> zzo38: you should write your own nethack
00:24:48 <elliott> erm
00:24:50 <elliott> zzo38: you should write your own netcat
00:24:55 <zzo38> elliott: You should be able to write a simple netcat program if needed
00:25:04 <elliott>   int i = rand() % 4;
00:25:09 <zzo38> And perhaps I can also write a netcat program if needed, too
00:25:12 <elliott> now why is this seemingly always 3...
00:27:16 <elliott> Ha, my server is beyond broken now.
00:35:07 <olsner> <elliott> I would pulverise their skull. <--- I approve
00:35:17 <elliott> Vorpal: link me?
00:37:15 <elliott> Gregor: did you get an explanation for the slow disk performance, out of curiosity?
00:37:38 <Gregor> Just that the other users on my system were overutilizing.
00:38:42 <elliott> bad users
00:40:04 <Sgeo> I <3 /r/tipofmytongue
00:40:05 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/tipofmytongue/comments/e5z1f/tomt_series_of_books_about_kids_on_an_island/
00:40:47 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15497 <-- but it won't work any more
00:41:03 <elliott> Vorpal: i just meant for stupid :)
00:41:05 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhere in that thread
00:41:08 <Vorpal> not sure where
00:41:13 <Vorpal> page 2 or 3  or such
00:41:28 <Vorpal> elliott, grep for the string I copied
00:41:30 <elliott> "Noahic deluge" :D
00:41:47 <elliott> where's the O() :P
00:41:56 <elliott> "Thanks for posting this and teaching future griefers how to do it. =/" itt: full disclosure
00:46:45 <elliott> http://2dcraft.net/ lawl
00:46:52 <elliott> " -- 1.6GHz CPU (Anything more than one core makes no difference)
00:46:53 <elliott> -- DirectX 9 capable graphics card. With (at least) Pixel Shader 1."
00:46:55 <elliott> it's 2d you moron
00:47:00 <elliott> you don't need directx 9
00:48:38 <elliott> Vorpal: got to the post gave up on life
00:51:41 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
00:52:06 <elliott> Vorpal: those forums are 99% noise.
00:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. The first few posts are the only stuff worth reading on most threads
00:53:00 <elliott> Vorpal: needs moar mailing list :)
00:53:05 <elliott> reminder to self: rewriting systems.
00:53:07 <elliott> ^
00:53:08 <elliott> |
00:53:08 <elliott> |
00:53:12 <elliott> i am going up to the topic bar
00:53:13 <elliott> toodles
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00:53:20 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, the redstone logic threads, and massive minecart/redstone-logic transportation networks are saner
00:53:22 <Vorpal> damn he left
00:53:31 <Sgeo> Bruce Coville owns my childhood.
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01:07:04 <pikhq> Why must it be cold?
01:07:23 <Sgeo> Because you never read Bruce Coville
01:07:44 <Sgeo> Sorry, just found out that he authored many of the books I read as a kid
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01:19:38 <Ilari> Hmm... The recent major adjustment in IPv4 depletion timing bought the two major models much closer together...
01:20:44 <Ilari> Like, about seven week diffrence was brought down to about three weeks...
01:21:55 <Ilari> Estimating X-day is basically estimating when RIPE and APNIC grab their next block...
01:22:21 <Ilari> Pick the later of the two estimates, and that is the X-day estimate.
01:22:41 <Sgeo> How many blocks are left?
01:22:50 <Sgeo> Are you saying there are only 2 blocks?
01:22:53 <Ilari> 6+5.
01:23:39 <Ilari> ARIN is going to grab soon. It is RIPE and APNIC that are going to grab the last 4 blocks. But question is, when the latter of those grabs happens?
01:24:57 <Ilari> Of course, large surprise allocations could skew it...
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01:34:38 <Ilari> Basically, what that AFRINIC allocation did is to transfer the uncertainity from AFRINIC (which doesn't seem to be handled too well by the models) into well-handled APNIC and RIPE.
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01:39:50 <Ilari> Actually, one large suprise allocation probably wouldn't skew it too much, because there is need for two RIRs to allocate after ARIN. Even RIPE taking surprise allocation moving its date a lot would only move the estimate by about 2 weeks (because APNIC would have to allocate).
01:40:43 <Ilari> Barring major surprises, the end-game is clear: ARIN, APNIC and RIPE will each allocate 2 blocks and last of those three will exhaust the pool.
01:49:00 <Ilari> Basically, the only thing that can move X day a lot is "run on the bank" scenario.
01:49:47 <Ilari> Or both APNIC and RIPE taking huge allocations.
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01:54:48 <Sgeo> So, on X-Day
01:54:51 <Sgeo> What happens?
01:55:10 <Sgeo> Do we finally start seeing IPv6 adaption?
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02:07:27 <Ilari> Nobody really knows... On the worst case, panic allocations start...
02:09:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: I expect IPv6 adoption to only really start on RIR pool depletion, as people finally realise that they *actually need to do it*.
02:18:47 <Ilari> These are two seperate things... IPv4 pool depletion and IPv6 adaption...
02:23:29 <pikhq> And IPv6 adoption will be mandatory in a bit over a year's time, it looks like.
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04:25:57 <pikhq> elliot: So, you said that Echoes was the only good part of Meddle... How convenient that that's half the album.
04:26:12 <pikhq> (the album is 46 minutes, Echoes is 23 minutes)
04:58:49 <Ilari> And too bad the IPv6 "last mile" stuff looks real mess...
04:59:52 <pikhq> By which I presume you mean "Dear God, Comcast is the *only* US ISP even trying."
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05:00:47 <Ilari> Isn't there some french ISP that has IPv6 in *production* use.
05:01:08 <Ilari> (not testing like Comcast).
05:02:25 <pikhq> NTT (in Japan) has offered IPv6 at home since *2000*.
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05:34:27 <gm|lap> not sure if any isp in nz actually supplies it
05:34:34 <gm|lap> we get ours through a tunnel broker
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06:29:46 <JoeyA> Just wondering, has anyone formulated a syntax for closures in LOLCODE?
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06:32:07 <JoeyA> I'm thinking GIMMEH A <var> FOR TO <expression>
06:33:23 <JoeyA> nvm...bed
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07:45:01 <Ilari> Hah... xine SIGSEGVs if you unlink file that is on the playlist and then attempt to to play it.
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07:46:27 <Ilari> Ah, now it just threw an error dialog.
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11:07:04 <Ilari> Heh... I tried guessing the amount of energy in McDonalds Quater Pounder. I guessed 600kcal, reality is 535kcal (not that calories count). Now, what's the amount of calories in most calorie-loaded product Starbucks sells? :-)
11:09:16 <Ilari> Fun fact: People can quite accurately estimate the number of calories in fast food. But ask them to estimate number of calories in food sold by "more upscale" places, and the estimates will be _WAY_ low.
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11:28:12 <Ilari> Crowdsourcing cancels out random errors, but it does not cancel out systematic bias.
11:32:47 <fizzie> Then you just need a better crowd.
11:35:10 <Ilari> And there's also the case where true answer lies in the extreme. Then the errors can't cancel out.
11:35:54 <Ilari> (that is, one can't guess any higher/lower than the true answer because such answer wouldn't make any sense).
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15:21:52 <pikhq> Ilari: Most calories in their most calorie-loaded? Well, their drinks are huge. I'm going with ~700 kcal (or ~29200 kJ).
15:22:47 <pikhq> Erm.
15:22:52 <pikhq> (2920 kJ)
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15:31:53 <fizzie> pikhq: Venti Iced Double Chocolaty Chip Frappuccino with whipped cream: 800 kcal. (Note: based on a very heuristic search for calories, not an exhaustive browsing of the menu.)
15:33:19 <pikhq> Wow, I was only a hundred short.
15:33:22 <pikhq> And damn.
15:33:27 <pikhq> Just damn.
15:35:23 <fizzie> Granted, "Venti Iced" *is* 24 oz (or apparently 0.7 litres).
15:38:36 <pikhq> Yeah, the venti is gigantic.
15:39:45 <pikhq> And people reguarly obtain it.
15:41:51 <pikhq> And it's not even that good of coffee.
15:50:26 <Vorpal> hm? which company?
15:51:00 <pikhq> Starbucks.
15:51:12 <Vorpal> ah
15:51:22 <pikhq> Gigantic things of shitty coffee.
15:56:34 * ais523_ thinks the existence of http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm is hilarious; Peter Norvig wrote a review of SICP on Amazon
16:00:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, hm the review is good and sensible as far as I can tell. So that means you probably think it is hilarious due to who wrote it.
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16:07:19 <ais523_> Vorpal: actually, I think it's the location that's hilarious
16:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So, I got kicked out of maths today for disagreeing with the teacher over whether 0 \in N.
16:07:23 <ais523_> in addition to who wrote it
16:07:36 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: never use N the set, use restrictions of Z instead
16:07:42 <ais523_> mathematicians don't generally agree on how to define N
16:07:44 <Vorpal> ais523_, hm okay
16:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, as I discovered to my cost.
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16:43:57 <Sgeo> Tried to help someone with their regex issues
16:44:00 <Sgeo> Couldn't figure it out
16:44:10 <Sgeo> Turns out that they actually typed a newline into their string
16:44:14 <Sgeo> It wasn't wordwrap
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16:49:06 <pikhq> Disease sucks. We should wipe out all other life-forms so that I can live without microbial diseases.
16:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What about KITTENS?
16:50:26 <pikhq> konekotatikàarukamosirann…
16:52:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I don't have Japanese Friend available!
16:53:05 <pikhq> Wouldn't help you anyways.
16:53:15 <pikhq> But, "There's probably kittens".
16:53:31 <pikhq> (子猫たちがあるかもしらん)
16:54:29 <elliott> pikhq: i'm up for wiping out non-sentient lifeforms if we can make it beneficial :P
16:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> But the KITTENS
16:55:32 <elliott> 20:25:57 <pikhq> elliot: So, you said that Echoes was the only good part of Meddle... How convenient that that's half the album.
16:55:32 <elliott> 20:26:12 <pikhq> (the album is 46 minutes, Echoes is 23 minutes)
16:55:37 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed! In fact it's one side.
16:55:51 <elliott> pikhq: So you could buy it and fashion the other side into a sculpture or something.
16:56:06 <elliott> 21:00:47 <Ilari> Isn't there some french ISP that has IPv6 in *production* use.
16:56:06 <elliott> 21:01:08 <Ilari> (not testing like Comcast).
16:56:11 <elliott> Ilari: Bogons.net offer it in the UK.
16:56:19 <elliott> 22:29:46 <JoeyA> Just wondering, has anyone formulated a syntax for closures in LOLCODE?
16:56:22 <elliott> DIE DIE DIE
16:56:28 <elliott> alt.language.lolcode.die.die.die
16:57:09 <elliott> 07:56:34 * ais523_ thinks the existence of http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm is hilarious; Peter Norvig wrote a review of SICP on Amazon
16:57:13 <elliott> ais523: but has he read his SICP today?
16:57:24 <ais523_> elliott: I doubt he needs to, I suspect he's already completed the whole thing
16:57:36 <elliott> ais523_: (meme)
16:57:36 <elliott> 08:07:36 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: never use N the set, use restrictions of Z instead
16:57:36 <elliott> 08:07:42 <ais523_> mathematicians don't generally agree on how to define N
16:57:41 <ais523_> the review itself is sane, I'm just amused at the person/book/location combo
16:57:44 <elliott> ais523_: strongly disagree, N is universally agreed to include 0
16:57:46 <elliott> pretty much
16:57:49 <ais523_> and I'm aware it's a meme, I just don't see how it's a relevant one
16:57:51 <elliott> unless mathematicians are much less sane than i thought
16:57:54 <elliott> sounds like FUD to me
16:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not according to Mathworld or WP/
16:58:10 <ais523_> elliott: it's far from universal, it's been around 50-50 for the mathematicians I've seen
16:58:21 <ais523_> (I myself refuse to use it due to ambiguity, unless either definition would work fine)
16:58:21 <elliott> ais523_: wrt SICP: It's a /prog/ meme, they don't have to be relevant, you just pattern-match on the word
16:58:27 <Sgeo> Doesn't Peano start with zero?
16:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't actually know what the teacher said in response, since she kicked me out of the lesson.
16:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yes, but it doesn't actually define what 0 is.
16:58:43 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: what, before saying something in response?
16:58:53 <ais523_> normally, you get told why you're being thrown out before you're thrown out
16:58:55 <elliott> How odd at Wikipedia's intro.
16:59:07 <ais523_> btw, which way round did you have it, which way round did the teacher have it?
16:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, well, I had just been told to shut up.
16:59:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: EDUCATION!
16:59:24 <elliott> ais523_: anyway, with zero is the obvious way to do it
16:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And I was firmly in favour of 0 being in N.
16:59:35 <elliott> ais523_: e.g. for the 0 = {}, S(x) = x union {x} definition
16:59:39 <elliott> ais523_: and Peano numbers
16:59:48 <elliott> ais523_: I don't know of any nice construction that starts with
16:59:50 <elliott> ais523_: I don't know of any nice construction that starts with 1
17:00:17 <Sgeo> If you exclude 0, division is eas.. no it's not
17:00:19 <ais523_> elliott: fundamental theorem of arithmetic gets screwed up by 0 (although it has to special-case 1 too)
17:00:39 <elliott> ais523_: i quote your parenthesis in response
17:00:42 <elliott> *ais523_: i quote your parenthesised statement in response
17:00:51 <elliott> ais523_: although, someone arguing that 1 isn't in N would be great
17:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you actually *define* multiplication without 1?
17:01:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sure, just special case *2
17:02:00 <elliott> x*2 = x+x
17:02:03 <elliott> x*(y+1) = x + x*y
17:02:21 <elliott> ais523_: ha, according to a comment on Norvig's review of SICP, The God Delusion is *less controversial* than SICP for ratings
17:02:23 <ais523_> elliott: that involves 1
17:02:34 <elliott> ais523_: well, I was going to write S(y)
17:02:36 <ais523_> you mean x*2 = x+x, x*3 = x+x+x, x*(y+2) = x + x + x*y
17:02:39 <elliott> but then realised it might not be successor-based
17:02:40 <elliott> right, that
17:02:43 <ais523_> elliott: heh
17:02:52 <elliott> "None of the major unix vendors (including Apple) have donated a dime to the makers of their ssh tool (they are called out in the last paragraph)"
17:02:59 <elliott> It's open source software, guys.
17:03:14 <ais523_> people who license their software under BSD, then complain when people use it commercially without compensation
17:03:18 <elliott> You use the BSD because you want shit like that to happen. Your project is one of the most vitrolic BSD advocates.
17:03:25 <elliott> So shut the fuck up.
17:03:38 <elliott> ais523_: "In the 10 years since the inception of the OpenSSH project, these companies have contributed not even a dime of thanks in support of the OpenSSH project (despite numerous requests)."
17:03:52 <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what a Theo de Raadt donation request looks like.
17:04:01 <elliott> "Give me some fucking money or I'll shut down the CVS repository again?"
17:04:10 <ais523_> hmm, I seem to remember Theo de Raadt has a famous personality, but I can't remember what it is
17:04:10 <elliott> (incidentally: great argument for distributed version control, the fact that he's done that twice after having a fit)
17:04:19 <elliott> ais523_: "major asshole"
17:04:35 <ais523_> hmm, fair enough
17:04:40 <pikhq> On the one hand, that's kinda sad — OpenSSH is good work, and they could do with some cash for it. On the other hand: them's the breaks, Theo. Sometimes, you'll do a bunch of hard work and only have the satisfaction of knowing that it's good work.
17:04:43 <elliott> ais523_: he flames almost everyone, has regular hissy fits, and has shut down the entire CVS repository (!) twice, in 2002 and 2010, just because he wasn't happy with how the developers were being.
17:05:04 <elliott> ais523_: there's a reason the NetBSD guys fired him :)
17:05:15 <ais523_> apparently (with the usual Reddit-related meaning of "apparently"), he insisted donations were made to him personally rather than the BSD projects as a whole
17:05:17 <pikhq> So, we've got slightly asshole companies and a complete whiny bastard developer.
17:05:18 <elliott> even Torvalds thinks he's a pain
17:05:27 <elliott> ais523_: heh, I even *predicted* that a few lines ago
17:05:35 <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what a Theo de Raadt donation request looks like.
17:05:35 <elliott> <elliott> "Give me some fucking money or I'll shut down the CVS repository again?"
17:05:39 <elliott> *again"?
17:05:47 <ais523_> hmm, is Linux GPLv2+, or GPLv2=? I can't remember
17:05:53 <elliott> ais523_: GPLv2 only.
17:05:59 <ais523_> hmm, makes sense
17:06:00 <pikhq> ais523: GPLv2= with some GPLv2+ parts.
17:06:17 <elliott> ais523_: I think GPLvN+ is *always* a mistake.
17:06:27 <elliott> Unless you really honestly trust the FSF to *never* screw up the GPL, ever.
17:06:30 <pikhq> With a GPLv3 migration *possible* if Torvalds sees an actual benefit in doing so.
17:06:41 <elliott> pikhq: linus has been pretty opposed to it
17:06:44 <ais523_> elliott: they've been pretty good at sticking to their own ideals so far
17:06:49 <elliott> pikhq: also, there are so many copyright holders that that would be almost impossible
17:06:58 <ais523_> and I trust them to do that, when I select the GPL as a license
17:07:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but he's not unilaterally opposed to it — if it needed to happen, he'd make it happen.
17:07:05 <ais523_> proxied-GPLv3+ seems to make sense, anyway
17:07:11 <elliott> ais523_: I will never understand GPL users. :)
17:07:16 <elliott> pikhq: Very relevant: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/sandals-not-flip-flops
17:07:20 <ais523_> (IIRC, it's the license Vorpal uses for his own projects)
17:07:23 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, doing so would probably involve *gigantic* labor.
17:07:51 <elliott> "My guess is that TiVo don’t actually do any DRM in the Linux kernel and that it’s all done in their proprietary user-space software. So, assuming they don’t use any GPL3 licensed code in that, the anti-DRM measures shouldn’t affect them."
17:07:52 <pikhq> Massive license auditing and rewriting everything without the ability to relicense.
17:08:03 <elliott> this is the kind of thing Gregor argues with me about :)
17:08:14 <ais523_> elliott: I've thought about licensing things under AGPL to make it simultaneously a) open-source, and b) incompatible with everything
17:08:29 <pikhq> TiVo signs the kernel; the anti-DRM measures would effect them.
17:08:42 <Gregor> ais523_: AGPL isn't considered OSS by the opensource.org folks.
17:08:50 <elliott> ais523_: AGPL is the absolutely correct direction for the GPL position. That's why I dislike it.
17:08:55 <ais523_> Gregor: hmm, I suppose not
17:09:21 <elliott> Gregor: you are a liar
17:09:23 <elliott> Gregor: [[The Open Source Initiative approved the GNU AGPLv3[3] as an open source license in March 2008 after Funambol submitted it for consideration.]]
17:09:29 <elliott> (or just didn't do any research)
17:09:37 <elliott> ais523: ^
17:09:44 <ais523_> elliott: picking a license is often pretty tricky, although I don't have objections to crazily-copyleft licenses like some people do
17:09:46 <elliott> http://opensource.org/licenses/agpl-v3.html
17:09:47 <Gregor> elliott: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I could've SWORN they explicitly said no at some point.
17:09:47 <ais523_> elliott: thanks for the correction
17:10:02 <elliott> Gregor: Haven't we already established your memory is beyond useless? :P
17:10:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the AGPL?
17:10:20 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: GPL, plus a clause that you must disclose the source to anyone you allow to interact with the program via a network connection
17:10:24 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but it's all I've got ;)
17:10:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "GPL, except if you make the software's function available over a network service -- e.g., imagine running an AGPL-licensed reddit clone -- you must offer the source"
17:10:33 <elliott> Gregor: you have google
17:10:35 <elliott> :P
17:10:38 <elliott> infinite memory and knowledge
17:10:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Affero General Public License. GPL plus a clause that you must disclose the source to anyone accessing it over the network.
17:10:41 <Gregor> elliott: What's Google?
17:10:48 <elliott> Gregor: It's this thing.
17:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so... it would't even be possible to use Linux with it?
17:11:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ???
17:11:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I too would give you a description, because you haven't gotten enough, but blah blah blah.
17:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> At least, with binary-only drivers on the server.
17:11:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Trying to explain better:
17:11:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Say some reddit clone software was licensed under the AGPL.
17:11:24 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I think that would count as the OS rather than the application itself
17:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the function of a driver is arguably exposed to the network.
17:11:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You modify it to your delirious, insane wishes and start a website with it.
17:11:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You MUST offer your modifications as AGPL, unlike with the GPL.
17:11:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, hyperinfectious.
17:12:06 * Gregor stabs anyone who calls *GPL "infectious"
17:12:12 <Vorpal> <ais523_> proxied-GPLv3+ seems to make sense, anyway <ais523_> (IIRC, it's the license Vorpal uses for his own projects) <-- only some of them.
17:12:15 <Gregor> If you don't like the license, DON'T USE IT, nobody's forcing you to.
17:12:28 <ais523_> elliott: here's an interesting anecdote: DCSS recently wanted to change its license from GPLv1 with one word changed, to a saner license (GPLv2+)
17:12:31 <Vorpal> ais523_, mostly due to lack of standard wording for the boilerplate
17:12:35 <ais523_> so they emailed every contributor asking if they agreed to the change
17:12:44 <ais523_> and I relicensed my contribution as public domain (as it was only two lines)
17:12:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, and then?
17:12:57 <pikhq> The AGPLv3 is less crazy than the AGPLv1, at least.
17:13:00 <ais523_> the and then hasn't happened yet
17:13:00 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, I'd have asked you to explicitly license it
17:13:08 <Vorpal> ais523_, ah, no punchline then
17:13:13 <elliott> ais523_: due to the uncertainty of public domain
17:13:31 <ais523_> elliott: actually, I did an "I release this code to the public domain, or if this is not legally possible, to the GPLv2+" with more legalesey language
17:13:33 <elliott> ais523: also, gah, I keep reading DCSS as DeCSS
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17:13:53 <ais523_> I thought it was a fun subversion on the usual public domain legality safeguard
17:14:14 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, if the FSF did crazy shit with the GPL, there would be some astounding lawsuits. The contract given with each and every copyright assignment requires them to make any licensing free software.
17:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, sorry, but I don't think there's a better word for stuff like that.
17:14:25 <ais523_> (I'm not entirely convinced my suggestion is copyrightable at all, as it was adding a couple of elements to a list)
17:14:45 <elliott> pikhq: By their definition of Free.
17:14:53 <pikhq> elliott: By the definition of Free in the contract.
17:15:05 <ais523_> <Wikipedia>     *  It should be noted that the "0" in the above definition need not correspond to what we normally consider to be the number zero. "0" simply means some object that when combined with an appropriate successor function, satisfies the Peano axioms. All systems that satisfy these axioms are isomorphic, the name "0" is used here for the first element, which is the only element that is not a successor. For example, the 
17:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: The GPL *is* viral.
17:15:08 <pikhq> Which is their definition of Free, but not-mutable.
17:15:16 <ais523_> interpreted as the natural number 1, the symbol S(0) as the number 2, etc. In fact, in Peano's original formulation, the first natural number was 1.
17:15:17 <elliott> pikhq: It probably allows for a lot of crazy.
17:15:32 <elliott> ais523_: yeah but clearly peano was a moron
17:16:09 <Gregor> elliott: No one is forcing you to link against something under the GPL. You can always just NOT do that. Viruses do not give you a choice.
17:16:12 <ais523_> elliott: my guess is that it would be financial suicide for the FSF to ever release a GPLv4 which was anything other than a typically Stallmanesque strong-copyleft license
17:16:30 <ais523_> the word "viral" is pretty useless in this context
17:16:36 <elliott> ais523_: like the FSF have any money
17:16:52 <pikhq> ais523_: Gigantic lawsuit if it was non-free, and the FSF would cease to be if it were anything but a copyleft license.
17:16:53 <ais523_> the GPL gives you additional rights, which you can use only under certain defined conditions which involve making other things GPL too
17:16:55 <elliott> Gregor: And viral marketing doesn't force you to watch this thinly-veiled advert for Doritos Incarnadine Splodge, either.
17:17:05 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up and accept the loosened definition of the term.
17:17:28 <ais523_> elliott: what's your opinion on the wiki clause in the GFDL?
17:17:33 <elliott> ais523_: fun fact, the FSF offers unpaid internment^Winternships
17:17:37 <elliott> I wonder who on earth would want to.
17:17:50 <ais523_> I'm personally a supporter of it, but it's the sort of thing which might well scare people off
17:18:07 <elliott> ais523_: in my opinion, it's both a good thing because the GFDL is shitty and Wikipedia shouldn't use it, but also, it's the PERFECT evidence for why trusting the FSF to update the license on your code is a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE IDEA
17:18:36 <ais523_> elliott: well, to me, it's an example of how the FSF can be trusted to act much like the FSF
17:18:45 <pikhq> elliott: Which is why the GPLv3 *has* the damned proxy clause.
17:18:45 <ais523_> it was a sensible solution to an unforeseen issue with the license
17:18:53 <pikhq> Probably the best bit in it.
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17:19:19 <elliott> ais523_: what issue? "it sucks"?
17:19:24 <ais523_> pikhq: I like the one that lets you correct a licensing mistake within 30 days of being notified
17:19:37 <zzo38> Maybe the AGPL says only over a network, but I think it should be more general than that.
17:19:40 <ais523_> elliott: it's clearly designed for hefty books, not individual articles
17:20:00 <ais523_> so it works fine for, say, the C-INTERCAL manual (which I chose GFDL for after some thought), but not for Wikipedia's lists of Pokémon
17:20:05 <elliott> ais523_: it's bad there too :)
17:20:16 <ais523_> elliott: what would you recommend instead? CC-by-sa?
17:20:18 <elliott> ais523_: I'm really sad that the Pokémon articles got deleted
17:20:24 <elliott> ais523_: they were really good quality...
17:20:24 <ais523_> they were merged, mostly
17:20:30 <elliott> ais523_: into lists, and then stripped down immensely
17:20:35 <ais523_> the issue wasn't that they weren't good quality, but that they were all basically identical
17:20:46 <elliott> meh
17:20:46 <zzo38> It should be apply to any software you communicate with, so if it is not running on your computer; a network doesn't matter.
17:20:57 <elliott> zzo38: err, any communication is a network
17:21:02 <elliott> even if it's just a network of two
17:21:17 <elliott> also, are you saying that someone who runs fortune(1) for you and snail mails you the output must be required to include its source code?
17:21:21 <elliott> or, well, offer it
17:21:23 <zzo38> elliott: But the AGPL ought to apply to a kiosk computer as well.
17:21:35 <ais523_> elliott: fortune(1) is an example of something that isn't sensible to have under AGPL
17:21:43 <zzo38> (I am not saying that someone runs a program for you and mails you the result manually)
17:21:47 <ais523_> zzo38: hmm, an interesting point, you're entirely correct there if you consider the spirit of the license
17:21:58 <elliott> ais523_: indeed; i'd have to write my own if i wanted pithy homepage quotes :P
17:22:17 <ais523_> I suppose an AGPL-spirit kiosk computer should probably sell CDs with its own source code on at cost
17:24:02 <elliott> ais523_: but stallman could never afford that, it costs money!
17:24:20 <ais523_> elliott: who said it had to be RMS owning the kiosk?
17:24:48 <elliott> ais523_: well, he probably wants a copy of all GPL'd source just out of principle
17:24:57 <elliott> ais523_: I meant he could never afford a CD
17:25:02 <ais523_> a copy of all the GPL source in the world would be kind-of useful
17:25:07 <elliott> why?
17:25:10 <ais523_> and I'm pretty sure Stallman isn't that personally ppor
17:25:12 <ais523_> *poor
17:25:20 <elliott> ais523_: are you *sure*?
17:25:22 <ais523_> elliott: it'd mean you wouldn't have to be online to obtain programs
17:25:31 <ais523_> elliott: no, but if he was a tramp, I'd probably have heard of it
17:25:41 <elliott> ais523_: well, he doesn't own a house.
17:25:50 <elliott> unless that's changed recently
17:26:01 <ais523_> that sounds like the sort of thing he'd do via personal choice, actually
17:26:01 <zzo38> Also, let's say maybe it is a kiosk computer that sells programs on USB, or that receives files on USB and sells a printing service, or something. In that case, perhaps another way is to have choice to copy the source files to USB at no extra cost (only the cost of the service the kiosk is selling is paid).
17:26:03 <ais523_> does he rent one?
17:26:14 <ais523_> zzo38: indeed, that would be a sensible option
17:26:16 <elliott> ais523_: no, hotels
17:26:20 <elliott> ais523_: he has no permanent residence
17:26:30 <pikhq> ais523: He's been unemployed for 25 years.
17:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Who?
17:26:35 <ais523_> elliott: someone too poor to burn a CD wouldn't live in hotels
17:26:38 <ais523_> they're more expensive than renting
17:26:39 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: RMS
17:26:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: rms
17:26:44 <elliott> ais523_: his name is lowercase
17:26:58 <pikhq> ais523: And his permanent residence is the office space MIT offers him for hysterical raisins.
17:27:00 <elliott> ais523_: djb, rms, esr (order deliberate)
17:27:08 <elliott> pikhq: oh, I didn't know that
17:27:19 <elliott> hmm, so Stallman's expenses are ... zero
17:27:23 <elliott> well
17:27:25 <elliott> they're food.
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17:27:33 <elliott> presumably the office space has internet of some sort
17:27:40 <ais523_> elliott: that sounds like the sort of life I'd live if I had the choice, actually
17:27:45 <ais523_> except I'd stay at home
17:28:10 <elliott> ais523_: the genius with no work ethic, how cliché
17:28:35 <pikhq> He's also gotten $500,000 from the MacArthur Fellowship, which is probably enough to cover food costs.
17:28:45 <elliott> pikhq: heh
17:28:45 <ais523_> elliott: I dislike structured work, it ruins my productivity, among other things
17:29:17 <pikhq> Also, he doesn't usually stay in hotels; instead, he prefers to crash on someone's couch when he travels.
17:29:19 <elliott> ais523_: my current plan is to figure out a way to be able to have a "company" that's basically a lab doing esoteric stuff and somehow have it turn over a profit
17:29:23 <elliott> ais523_: and then hire everyone in here
17:29:30 <elliott> ais523_: gotta be possible, right?!?!
17:29:34 <ais523_> somehow turning a profit is the difficult part
17:30:01 <elliott> ais523_: maybe it could just sell VPSes/dedicated hosting, it's not like it wouldn't have a bunch of computers and a network pipe anyway
17:30:15 <elliott> admittedly, system administration is not exactly a barrel of fun
17:30:19 <ais523_> elliott: margins there are likely very tight
17:30:28 <elliott> ais523_: sure, but prgmr does it :)
17:30:32 <ais523_> and thus profits low unless you scale up massively
17:30:35 <elliott> and turns a healthy profit
17:31:00 <elliott> ais523_: meh, i've got enough time to figure out the fiddly details
17:31:11 <elliott> ais523_: could just get regular research grants on insane esoteric things :)
17:31:44 <ais523_> I was wondering about that
17:31:47 <pikhq> ais523: To keep a privately held business going you don't *need* massive profits.
17:31:51 <ais523_> but it might be kind-of hard to justify a grant
17:31:56 <pikhq> You just need to keep a balanced budget.
17:32:10 <ais523_> pikhq: indeed; but to actually gain enough money from it to make a living, you need massive profits before you pay your employees
17:32:16 <elliott> ais523_: hey, people in academia make a living off of doing silly things in haskell
17:32:22 <elliott> ais523_: I'm sure it's possible :P
17:32:26 <pikhq> (the key is "privately held"; get stockholders involved and everything goes to shit)
17:32:37 <ais523_> that sounds like the sort of life I'm destined to end up in unless I really try to make myself a different one
17:32:41 <pikhq> ais523: Paying employees is not part of your profits.
17:32:45 <pikhq> That's expenditure.
17:32:51 <ais523_> well, yes
17:32:53 <elliott> ais523_: well, my backup plan is to just get a Ph.D. in CS and do research
17:32:58 <elliott> which doesn't sound all that awful
17:33:01 <ais523_> elliott: heh, that's what I'm doing atm
17:33:39 <elliott> ais523_: as far as I'm concerned, the idea would be to try and combine expenses that lead to profit with expenses that we want; e.g. buying a bunch of servers and sticking them in a data centre to sell VPSes on also lets them be used for any computation that might be needed
17:33:43 <elliott> (assuming they don't get full)
17:33:50 * pikhq wonders why people pay RMS to do speeches.
17:33:57 <ais523_> pikhq: because he's a celebrity
17:34:05 <ais523_> I mean, people pay /Tony Blair/ to do speeches
17:34:10 <elliott> "I think it is ok for authors (please let's not call them creators, they are not gods) to ask for money for copies of their works (please let's not devalue these works by calling them content) in order to gain income (the term compensation falsely implies it is a matter of making up for some kind of damages)." --Stallman the Pedant
17:34:22 <elliott> ais523_: people pay *George W. Bush* to do speeches
17:34:25 <pikhq> ais523: The thing is, his speeches are precomposed, set speeches that he's been giving for years.
17:34:27 <elliott> quick, name your favourite GWB speech
17:34:30 <pikhq> Every once in a while he makes a new one.
17:34:36 <elliott> now name your favourite GWB speech mistake
17:34:47 <ais523_> pikhq: yet people still pay for them
17:34:49 <pikhq> *That* is why I wonder why people pay him to do speeches.
17:35:07 <elliott> "Also, Stallman avoids use of a key card to enter the building where his office is.[71] Such a system would track doors entered and times."
17:35:44 <ais523_> that's an interesting point
17:35:49 <pikhq> Unsurprising, though.
17:35:53 <ais523_> people nowadays tend to do more tracking than a sane society would sensibly need
17:36:03 <ais523_> OTOH, that doesn't necessarily mean that avoiding it for the sake of it is sane either
17:36:13 <pikhq> Given that he doesn't own a cell phone for the same reason.
17:36:52 <elliott> ais523_: I think he's trying to avoid disclosing that he never leaves :)
17:37:03 <elliott> s/disclosing/reword the sentence better/
17:37:07 <elliott> *more better like
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17:43:48 <ais523_> wow, the kerning on this browser is so bad that sometimes later letters end up before earlier ones
17:43:58 <ais523_> and you can change where it happens by selecting bits of text
17:44:03 <elliott> which browser?
17:44:07 <ais523_> Firefox on CentOS
17:44:18 <elliott> ais523_: gnome?
17:44:24 <elliott> configure fonts or something. it ... might help
17:44:35 <ais523_> yep, this is the crazy "gnome configured to act like KDE" public computer lab
17:48:22 <ais523_> hmm, an interesting topic being discussed on Reddit: glibc changed memcpy to increase the performance, and this changed its behaviour in the case where src and dest overlap (undefined behaviour for memcpy, you're supposed to use memmove there instead)
17:48:33 <ais523_> and the argument's about if they should have broken broken applications like that
17:50:36 <ais523_> relevant: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c31 (by Linus Torvalds, commenting on the valgrind output from Flash)
17:50:39 <Gregor> http://www.johnsphones.com/store/johns-phone-business/item45 <-- why is the "world's simplest cell phone" 80 friggin euros ...
17:50:54 <Gregor> Is it a joke? Is it just a bad idea?
17:51:21 <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what eglibc will do.
17:51:31 <elliott> "Tell adobe." LOL
17:51:43 <elliott> Gregor: cuz itz DESIGNER
17:51:55 <ais523_> elliott: eglibc's designed for embedded systems, I imagine it wouldn't use an optimized memcpy because that makes no sense on its typical target platforms
17:52:01 <elliott> ais523_: ...lol
17:52:04 <ais523_> so the issue probably wouldn't come up there
17:52:06 <elliott> ais523_: You do realise Debian and Ubuntu use eglibc, not glibc?
17:52:16 <ais523_> elliott: due to disagreeing with the maintainer of glibc
17:52:17 <elliott> ais523_: And that eglibc is just as designed for desktops as glibc?
17:52:24 <elliott> ais523_: It's not less optimised or anything...
17:52:27 <ais523_> the e stands for "embedded", though, doesn't it?
17:52:28 <elliott> ais523_: It just has embedded support AS WELL.
17:52:34 <ais523_> ah
17:52:36 <elliott> ais523_: i.e. additional architectures and the ability to compile less.
17:52:47 <elliott> ais523_: They also sync with upstream. So it is entirely possible they will use this new memcpy.
17:53:02 <ais523_> optimising for embedded hardware's different from optimising for desktops, though
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17:53:17 <elliott> Nokia 4000 series 
17:53:17 <elliott> Series skipped (see here) as a sign of politeness from Nokia towards East Asian customers. See tetraphobia.
17:53:19 <elliott> ais523_: they don't
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17:53:43 <elliott> ais523_: listen, all the x86/x86-64 code is identical to glibc apart from maintenance, they just maintain it like usual
17:54:03 <ais523_> ah
17:54:06 <elliott> ais523_: the *only* differences are (1) support for more embedded architectures and (2) slightly more modularity in what you can not compile
17:54:07 <ais523_> project name's a bit misleading, then
17:54:10 <elliott> (i.e. you can disable more components)
17:54:13 <ais523_> but fair enough
17:54:20 <elliott> ais523_: if you want to use glibc on an embedded platform, you use eglibc
17:54:29 <elliott> it's just that you use eglibc if you hate Drepper, too (and who doesn't?) :)
17:55:05 <pikhq> elliott: Presumably Red Hat.
17:55:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm still not sure why Red Hat actually employ Drepper
17:55:27 <pikhq> Nor am I.
17:55:44 <elliott> pikhq: as far as I can tell, there are plenty of viable glibc maintainers that aren't huge assholes, and all he *ever* causes is public dislike, which isn't good for Red Hat
17:56:49 <elliott> can i just say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia is the most hilarious thing ever?
17:57:13 <ais523_> hmm, someone later on in that thread said they'd run a script that patched the binary of Flash to replace memcpy with memmove everywhere
17:57:19 <ais523_> which is a pretty hilarious way to patch the bug
17:57:28 <elliott> ais523_: heh
17:57:30 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, "most hilarious thing ever" has a lot of competition
17:57:35 <elliott> haha, Ulrich Drepper has NIH! Ulrich Drepper has NIH!
17:57:37 <elliott> [[I am currently working on a new set of binary utilities. They are meant to replace GNU binutils at least on my machine. The goal is to have all the commonly used functionality which is important on and for Linux available. Plus: fewer limitations (and bugs) when it comes to ELF file handling.
17:57:37 <elliott> GNU binutils suffer from supporting all kinds of binary formats and from what I consider mistakes in the development.]]
17:58:16 <elliott> "And for portability: this code is only meant for Linux. I don't give a rat's a** about non-ELF platforms. And platforms without the Linux API are not important either."
17:58:38 <ais523_> elliott: hey, I reimplemented binutils for gcc-bf
17:58:48 <ais523_> mostly because I was completely ripping out the format of everything
17:58:57 <elliott> ais523_: NIH is a good thing! it's just funny because he's probably a jerk about it
17:59:46 <elliott> "Stallman scored 1597 on the SAT (800 Math, 797 Verbal)."
17:59:50 <elliott> Stallman's good at standardised tests; discuss.
18:00:01 <elliott> lol: [[The article begins with : Richard Matthew Stallman (born March 16, 1953), often abbreviated "rms", and uses his homepage at stallman.org as a reference where he mentions : "Richard Stallman" is just my mundane name; you can call me "rms". Just because he refers to himself as "rms" does not mean it should be included, I think hes just trying to be friendly to visitors of his website. If publications or other reliable sources refer to hims a
18:00:01 <elliott> s "rms" then I agree it should be mentioned. --GateKeeperX (talk) 08:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)]]
18:00:05 <elliott> Wikipedia talk pages are hives of idiocy
18:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wretched ones, too.
18:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you got the specs for that computer?
18:00:44 <elliott> [[I think I saw this guy in a James Bond movie as a hacker. It was the one about Rupert Murdoch taking over the world by making China go to war with the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacekeep (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)]]
18:00:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Jesus christ, I've been busy! :P
18:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You BETRAYED me!
18:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I hope that post was satirical.
18:01:41 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, it wasn't Rupert Murdoch, but Mr. Carver (I can't remember his first name)
18:01:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: nope
18:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
18:01:58 <elliott> well, i don't think
18:02:29 <elliott> ais523_: [[    * "Stallman recommends not owning a mobile phone,[69] as he believes the tracking of cell phones creates harmful privacy issues.[70] Also, Stallman avoids use of a key card to enter the building where his office is.[71] Such a system would track doors entered and times. For personal reasons, he does not actively browse the web from his computer; rather, he uses wget and reads the fetched pages from his e-mail mailbox.[70]"
18:02:29 <elliott> Can someone verify or present additional sources for these absurd claims? Some of the sources seem either falsified, out-of-context or just purely comical in nature. I find it hard to believe these were anything but bad jokes.76.67.111.164 (talk) 22:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)]]
18:02:40 <elliott> Stallman: So weird, nobody can believe Wikipedia about him.
18:02:53 <ais523_> elliott: well, I don't have a mobile, but for a different reason
18:03:04 <elliott> [[I think I saw this guy in a James Bond movie as a hacker. It was the one about Rupert Murdoch taking over the world by making China go to war with the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacekeep (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
18:03:04 <elliott>     Nope, that was Ricky Jay, playing the character of Henry Gupta in Tomorrow Never Dies. Though they do share some superficial similarity. // Meneth (talk) 00:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)]]
18:03:05 <ais523_> if you're reachable 24 hours a day, people try to reach you 24 hours a day
18:03:06 <elliott> full quote
18:03:09 <elliott> I don't see the superficial similarity.
18:03:16 <elliott> ais523_: while you're sleeping?
18:03:29 <ais523_> elliott: apparently, based on conversations with other people with mobiles
18:03:32 <ais523_> (although not all that often)
18:03:32 -!- augur has joined.
18:03:54 <elliott> ais523_: I think that is not very common :P Not unless you have a lot of time zone-ignorant or ... what's the w- nocturnal, friends.
18:04:08 <elliott> ais523_: I'd like a mobile that doesn't have a phone. (Although it'd need a good typing mechanism, somehow.)
18:04:33 <ais523_> elliott: it seems that the calls that you get around 4am or so are generally from drunk people
18:04:38 -!- augur has quit (Client Quit).
18:04:46 <ais523_> perhaps you have no friends who regularly get drunk?
18:04:47 <elliott> ais523_: or drunkard friends, i guess.
18:04:50 <elliott> :-P
18:05:01 -!- augur has joined.
18:05:11 <elliott> ais523_: nobody really calls me much, I'm speaking from second-hand collected experience here
18:05:22 <elliott> which is obviously flawed and biased in numerous ways
18:05:39 <pikhq> elliott: I could find oodles of citations on stallman.org for those.
18:06:35 <elliott> the ideal wikipedia article is a single logical statement that is a theorem in almost all logical systems, and then a long list of references proving this in hundreds of them, published in respected journals
18:06:58 <Vorpal> <ais523_> elliott: it seems that the calls that you get around 4am or so are generally from drunk people <-- you can turn a phone off during the night. Or put it on silent.
18:07:58 <ais523_> Vorpal: indeed
18:08:06 <Vorpal> ais523_, I only ever get calls from family. SMS from everyone else who have my phone number. And never during night. Even when I forgot to turn it off during night (I usually do turn it off)
18:08:13 <ais523_> although there's increasing social pressure, nowadays, for phone owners to leave it on whenever they can
18:08:25 <elliott> ais523_: not at night...
18:08:27 <ais523_> Vorpal: presumably, you're sensible enough to be careful in who you give your number to, rather than, say, posting it on Facebook
18:08:43 <Vorpal> ais523_, well, who cares about social pressure? I put it on offline mode during lectures for example
18:08:59 <ais523_> Vorpal: most people do, even if you and I mostly don't
18:09:01 <Vorpal> ais523_, I don't have facebook to begin with :P
18:09:07 <elliott> I find it hard to believe that ais523_'s friends are stupid enough to get annoyed at him for turning his phone off.
18:09:12 <Zuu> ais523, if anyone ever express that expectation, you just call them in the middle of the night ;)
18:09:14 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
18:09:14 <elliott> I imagine they're far more irritated that he has no phone at all :)
18:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, my friends don't get annoyed from that either
18:09:25 <Vorpal> they do the same mostly
18:09:49 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. SMS is a great invention.
18:09:55 <Vorpal> and cheap.
18:09:57 <elliott> Vorpal: SMS is obsolete
18:10:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no one I know uses MMS
18:10:10 <elliott> Vorpal: MMS is stillborn.
18:10:11 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
18:10:19 <Vorpal> elliott, then what is the replacement you suggest
18:10:38 <ais523_> elliott: I hardly have any friends, so it's mostly irrelevant
18:10:39 <elliott> Vorpal: also, SMS isn't cheap, it's grossly oversold; the cost of sending an SMS for the networks is 0; counting costs of infrastructure, it's, like, 0.001p
18:10:44 <Vorpal> elliott, everyone I know use SMS for communicating within the group of friends.
18:10:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Email is the replacement.
18:10:53 <ais523_> and IRC >>>> SMS
18:10:54 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. I get 5000 free / month on my plan.
18:11:00 <elliott> ais523_: IRC is realtime
18:11:01 <Vorpal> and that is a *data* plan mostly
18:11:05 <ais523_> elliott: exactly
18:11:09 <elliott> Vorpal: you're in Sweden :)
18:11:13 <ais523_> if you really need to say something to someone out-of-bound, use email
18:11:15 <elliott> ais523_: there's social pressure to respond quickly
18:11:18 <ais523_> *out-of-ban
18:11:19 <elliott> ais523_: also, agreed w/ emial
18:11:20 <ais523_> *out-of-band
18:11:21 <elliott> *email
18:11:23 <ais523_> elliott: on SMS, too
18:11:26 <elliott> ais523_: SMS is just limited email
18:11:27 <Vorpal> elliott, most I sent during a month: 78
18:11:31 <Vorpal> and that was one extreme case
18:11:39 <ais523_> "I texted you and you never replied!" is the sort of thing you overhear in corridors all the time
18:11:51 <ais523_> Vorpal: oh, over here, it's common for people to have long SMS conversations, IRC-style
18:12:04 <Vorpal> ais523_, well perhaps. But not on keypad phones I bet :P
18:12:26 <ais523_> Vorpal: even on keypad phones
18:12:27 <Vorpal> which is still very common
18:12:29 <Vorpal> hm
18:12:32 <Vorpal> ais523_, huh
18:12:38 <pikhq> I've got unlimited SMS.
18:12:39 <ais523_> do you not know about predictive texting?
18:12:42 <elliott> Vorpal: you have no idea how fast people type on keypad phones
18:12:50 <elliott> their thumbs would like to secede from their bodies
18:12:54 <ais523_> basically, it picks only the number sequences that correspond to actual words
18:12:59 <elliott> and go somewhere with more freedom
18:13:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the dictionary certainly helps indeed
18:13:04 <ais523_> with a button to change between other words that happen to collapse to the same number sequence
18:13:07 <ais523_> it works pretty well
18:13:11 <elliott> Vorpal knows what predictive texting is :P
18:13:12 <pikhq> Though it's probably overcharged. (I don't pay the bill, so I don't know)
18:13:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I use the dictionary. Means one key press per letter of the word
18:13:34 <elliott> ais523_: I had to get my mother to start to use predictive texting, it was painful watching her thumb slowly give up on life.
18:13:36 <Vorpal> unless other phones are more advanced
18:13:36 <elliott> Vorpal: = predictive texting
18:13:53 <Vorpal> elliott, it annoys me it can't complete the word if there is just one alternative
18:14:02 <elliott> Vorpal: ?
18:14:05 <Vorpal> like when you are writing a long one where the ending is more or less given at that point
18:14:05 <ais523_> Vorpal: it can
18:14:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, not on my phone
18:14:16 <ais523_> oh, you mean tab-complete-like?
18:14:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, yes
18:14:23 <ais523_> most words can be pluralised or changed to end -ing, etc
18:14:28 <ais523_> so there's nearly always at least two alternatives
18:14:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, well, fairly limited range. And it could complete up to the point of diverging
18:16:19 <ais523_> Vorpal: hmm, actually, the KDE file selection dialogs do that, and it's really annoying
18:16:23 <ais523_> because it breaks your muscle memory
18:16:31 <elliott> ais523_: ugh, I hate that dialogue
18:16:38 <ais523_> you should have to hit the equivalent of tab to move on
18:16:50 <Vorpal> ais523_, KDE file selection fails badly when I want to type the directory name in the list. to find it. It finds it. But doesn't select it
18:16:54 <Vorpal> if you know what I mean
18:17:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, and sure, tab would work
18:17:19 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, I think that for anything longer than a few words, taking a laptop out of your bag, opening the lid, clicking an email client and clicking Compose might actually result in a quicker message-sending time, due to the full-sized keyboard
18:17:21 <Vorpal> but that lacks from my phone
18:17:34 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on what phone
18:17:37 <ais523_> also, awesome feature of Kate: you can return-complete words even in plain-text documents
18:17:52 <elliott> Vorpal: any phone with a keypad
18:17:53 <ais523_> I think it looks for long words you've used more than once or twice, and adds them to an internal return-completion dictionary
18:17:54 <elliott> iPhone is arguable
18:18:00 <elliott> depends if you're superhuman or not
18:18:10 <Vorpal> elliott, n900 should manage fairly well though
18:18:14 <elliott> I'm a damn good iPhone typist now, after having fast-paced #esoteric'd with it for a lot of months
18:18:23 <elliott> Vorpal: err, it lacks a keyboard, right?
18:18:25 <ais523_> elliott: I couldn't reasonably type on a laptop while balancing it on my other hand
18:18:30 <elliott> ais523_: get a bench :P
18:18:30 <Vorpal> elliott, n900 has slide out
18:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, small one
18:18:34 <ais523_> and the mobile phone scenario doesn't assume the presence of a nearby desk
18:18:37 <Vorpal> not full sized
18:18:41 <Vorpal> so still slower than a laptop
18:18:58 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, too-small keyboards are worse than touchscreens
18:19:04 <elliott> they are probably the worst
18:19:11 <elliott> even worse than keypads
18:19:12 <Vorpal> elliott, it has touchscreen as well
18:19:15 <elliott> Vorpal: it's resistive
18:19:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes so it works with gloves
18:19:21 <elliott> good luck typing well on a resistive, non-multitouch touchscreen
18:19:26 <elliott> (hint: impossible)
18:19:38 <elliott> Vorpal: good luck typing with gloves on any touchscreen at all ever even in the year 5 million...
18:20:29 <Vorpal> elliott, true. But you could still use it to dial :P when it is -15 C and a hard wind.
18:20:45 <Vorpal> to call about the bus having got stuck or something
18:21:24 <ais523_> elliott: there was a Slashdot submission about a new type of glove designed specifically to work on capacitative touchscreens...
18:21:25 <Vorpal> elliott, basically if you can't dial from the phone with your gloves on during the darkest period of the Swedish winter I'm not interested.
18:21:34 <ais523_> incidentally, whatever happened to styluses?
18:21:38 <Vorpal> elliott, for keypad, backlit keys are a must
18:21:56 <coppro> ais523_: they're lame, obviously
18:22:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, sure but they aren't that easy to get out in bad condition :P
18:22:19 <ais523_> coppro: well, I use them on touchscreens (but then, I don't own a mobile)
18:22:21 <Vorpal> iirc n900 has a stylus in it
18:22:26 <ais523_> it seems to make more sense than getting the screen greasy
18:22:49 <Gregor> They have capacitive styluses too.
18:23:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed. But not having to fiddle with that to make a call is a big plus
18:23:21 <Vorpal> not all of us live in sunny climates :P
18:23:24 <ais523_> people use phones to make /calls/ nowadays?
18:23:47 <ais523_> well, I use landlines for that very occasionally
18:24:07 <ais523_> (I even have a reverse-charge payphone number, although it's rarely used due to the general absence of payphones)
18:24:20 <Gregor> They should rename EGLIBC to NonDrepperGLIBC
18:25:10 <Vorpal> heh
18:25:17 <Vorpal> ais523_, you don't make calls? Or SMS?
18:25:33 <Vorpal> and SMS with gloves on is tricky even on keypad
18:25:35 <Gregor> <ais523_> I have a perfectly good rotary phone!
18:25:38 <ais523_> Vorpal: I make calls on a landline occasionally, usually to other landlines
18:25:49 <ais523_> Gregor: touchtone, but relatively old
18:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523_, well.. I do it from my mobile every now and then
18:25:53 <Gregor> <ais523_> If it was good enough for 1901, damn it it's good enough for me!
18:26:15 <Vorpal> Gregor, probably it will last longer than my mobile :P
18:26:23 <ais523_> (non-smartphone) mobile phones are massively overpriced for what they do, I don't see why people are willing to pay for them
18:26:25 <Vorpal> build quality was better back then
18:26:37 <Gregor> ais523_: In the US, they're not.
18:26:45 <Vorpal> in Sweden they aren't that much
18:26:45 <Gregor> ais523_: They are however willing to lock themselves into long contracts ;)
18:26:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, only if you buy them from carrier
18:27:07 <Vorpal> you can buy that stuff separately
18:27:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: In the US, you buy them from the carrier :P
18:27:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, Why on earth
18:27:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hell, half our carriers don't even use GSM, and the ones that do are on a different band than the rest of the world, and they all have different 3G bands.
18:27:44 <Gregor> I'm on a non-GSM carrier *shrugs*
18:28:15 <ais523_> Gregor: the US phone situation looks insane from the UK, but I imagine vice versa as well
18:28:32 <Gregor> ais523_: I don't know anything about the UK phone situation :P
18:28:38 <ais523_> advertising feature genuinely used by a mid-sized mobile phone operator: if you top your phone up £10, you get £30 of credit
18:28:42 <Gregor> And the US phone situation IS insane.
18:29:02 <ais523_> Gregor: it's insane on both sides, but in completely different ways
18:29:06 <ais523_> (I'm aware of the US phone situation)
18:29:25 <Gregor> Anyway, I have a whoopdidoo smartphone :P
18:29:25 <ais523_> the UK situation, generally speaking, is that you get a phone independent of any contract, and get a SIM card, nowadays generally also independent of any contract
18:29:26 <fizzie> Finland tends to be somewhat pricey place when it comes to consumer electronics, but I don't think our dumbphones cost very much. You can get a reasonable basic phone for <30 EUR (< 25 GBP) from the store; at least a while ago buying any phones from the carrier was pretty rare. Er, except for the one-carrier-exclusive iPhone, of course.
18:30:04 <ais523_> in order to actually be able to make calls, you "top up" the phone by sending money to the owners of the SIM card; it used to be done at supermarkets and grocery stores, but nowadays it's often done via ATMs instead
18:30:17 <Vorpal> <ais523_> advertising feature genuinely used by a mid-sized mobile phone operator: if you top your phone up £10, you get £30 of credit <-- can you extract that somehow and then start a new cycle? :D
18:30:21 <ais523_> then that money can be spent to make calls or texts, at rather extortionate rates
18:30:24 <ais523_> Vorpal: nope
18:30:36 <Vorpal> ais523_, aww. Their lawyers are too smart
18:30:40 <ais523_> of course, the amount of "credit" you have is just an arbitrary number, even if it's normally expressed as money
18:30:45 <Gregor> ais523_: So they're all pay-as-you-go, no monthly rate and/or contract plans? No unlimited plans?
18:30:54 <Vorpal> "and get a SIM card, nowadays generally also independent of any contract"
18:30:56 <ais523_> Gregor: I'm getting to that bit
18:30:56 <Vorpal> err
18:31:01 <Vorpal> ais523_, how would that work?
18:31:09 <Vorpal> I mean
18:31:10 <ais523_> now, generally speaking you can opt into all sorts of plans
18:31:11 <Vorpal> who makes them
18:31:18 <ais523_> Vorpal: the SIM card doesn't work until you pay the manufacturer
18:31:19 <Vorpal> some generic SIM card company?
18:31:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: A pre-paid thing, I believe.
18:31:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh
18:31:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: There are lots of no-contract plans here too, just they come with a SIM card in a shitty phone rather than just a SIM card :P
18:31:30 <Vorpal> just pre-paid plan?
18:31:33 <Vorpal> well okay
18:31:35 <ais523_> and they're made via the individual phone manufacturers
18:31:52 <ais523_> so, typical phone plans would offer X in return for topping up at rate Y
18:32:05 <ais523_> e.g. you'd get 5000 free texts per month as long as you topped up at least £10 a weak
18:32:42 <Vorpal> huh
18:32:55 <elliott> <ais523_> it seems to make more sense than getting the screen greasy
18:32:58 <elliott> oleophobic
18:33:09 <ais523_> also, unused credit tends to disappear after a certain length of time
18:33:16 <ais523_> elliott: nah, it just makes the text hard to read
18:33:42 <ais523_> hmm, I'll bbiab, changing computer
18:33:44 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:33:44 <elliott> ais523_: fail
18:33:50 <elliott> (at understanding)
18:33:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:34:12 <elliott> "Due to the configuration error GitHub's production database was destroyed then re-created."
18:34:30 <Vorpal> ais523_, no normal style contracts? Like mine, one year binding time, student-discount, free data traffic, but if you pass 2 GB / month it will be throttled to a rather lower speed. 5000 free SMS per month. Calls slightly more expensive than landline. 98 SEK / month, though 29 SEK until the end of the year (special offer)
18:34:48 <Vorpal> argh he left
18:35:18 <Vorpal> elliott, err.. They had no backup?
18:35:22 <elliott> <Vorpal> Here, like in all messages, I will be sure to demonstrate Swedish superiority with piercing accuracy to demonstrate how superior our technological economics is. I will pretend this is normal and act surprised at your backwards, non-Swedish nations when it turns out not to be.
18:35:25 <Vorpal> elliott, and what did it contain?
18:35:25 <elliott> Vorpal: who said that?
18:35:29 <elliott> Vorpal: they restored from a backup
18:35:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it contained... GitHub
18:35:46 <elliott> well, not the git repositories
18:35:49 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
18:35:49 <elliott> but all the fluff around them
18:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, fate has smiled upon me and I got a new cardy thing.
18:35:56 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Could have been waaaay worse then
18:35:56 <ais523> back
18:36:03 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah
18:36:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Shall attempt to see if I can get MineCraft with it soonish.
18:36:07 <elliott> ais523: oleophobic wasn't referring to you
18:36:08 <fizzie> The SMS thing is also very crazy; "free data traffic" except if you want to send 140-character 7-bit messages, then it's not free.
18:36:09 <ais523> Vorpal: they exist, but they aren't very common
18:36:18 <elliott> ais523: the iPhone 3G S onwards use oleophobic screens, which means that fingerprints don't stick to them
18:36:21 <fizzie> There was this recent Nielsen study -- in the US, I think -- that girls in the [13, 17] age group send on average 4050 text messages per month; assuming 30 days of 6 hours of sleep (18 awake), that's 7.5 messages per hour.
18:36:29 <elliott> ais523: it just gets slightly grubby, and a single wipe gets them all off
18:36:31 <ais523> the sort of people who buy them are traditionalists
18:36:36 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'm surprised your don't have something like that plan I mentioned. I would expect slightly more expensive. Say 2000 free SMS / month. and maybe 1.5 GB data
18:36:42 <Vorpal> and somewhat higher price
18:36:49 <Vorpal> but yes I would expect something along similar lines
18:37:00 <elliott> Vorpal: *you
18:37:04 <elliott> my iPhone contract has... 500 free texts
18:37:08 <elliott> and N free minutes for some N
18:37:12 <ais523> fizzie: that reminds me of a study a while ago, where it turns out that the average length of time people spending Facebook is now so high it's significant even if you average across the entire population of the word
18:37:13 <elliott> and unlimited data usage
18:37:18 <elliott> and it's £30/month or so
18:37:21 <fizzie> Also the 7-bit SMS charset gets people killed.
18:37:22 <elliott> (I forget the exact amount)
18:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, N=-3.
18:37:24 <elliott> it's rather awful
18:37:34 <Vorpal> hm
18:37:36 <Vorpal> let me convert
18:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the 7-bit charset is the ASCII, isn't it?
18:37:52 <Vorpal> 331 SEK
18:37:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No, at least in GSM networks it's a different encoding.
18:37:57 <Vorpal> okay that's quite expensive
18:38:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_03.38
18:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also SMS uses unicode nowdays iirc?
18:38:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Can.
18:38:34 <ais523> elliott: smartphone plans are generally saner than the pay-as-you-go dumbphone plans
18:38:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably for the iPhone. I didn't say 7-bit, fizzie did.
18:38:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes and does so by default since... years?
18:38:45 <elliott> ais523: but much more expensive
18:38:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah right
18:38:50 <ais523> the contract plans are saner than the pay-as-you-go ones, yet they're really unpopular for some reason
18:38:51 <elliott> ais523: I hate technology.
18:39:04 <ais523> elliott: well, you'd expect it to be more expensive as it's a much higher bandwidth requirement
18:39:22 <elliott> ais523: it costs something like twice as much as the residential broadband connectino
18:39:24 <elliott> *connection
18:39:34 <ais523> seems reasonable
18:39:40 <elliott> ais523: no, not really
18:39:46 <elliott> ais523: see, e.g. Sweden :P
18:39:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only if your handset manufacturer bothers, which might not be the case for the cheapest possible phone.
18:39:47 <Vorpal> anyway, every carrier I checked with allows tethering in Sweden. But warns that due to technical issues it won't work with iphone.
18:39:57 <Vorpal> iirc in US they don't allow that
18:40:07 <elliott> Vorpal: The iPhone's tethering got nuked when the carriers decided they didn't want people using it.
18:40:13 <elliott> Vorpal: It's still in there, just not in the US.
18:40:15 <elliott> (You can unlock it.)
18:40:19 <fizzie> Regarding "gets people killed", I was referring to http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-more-in-jail though I guess it's more of a phone-software issue. Still.
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18:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, err handset? err?
18:40:29 <Sgeo> Awesome. Wifi works here but not next to my classroom
18:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a pay-as-you-go thing on my phone.
18:40:36 <elliott> Vorpal: AT&T's business model, you see, is "Dammit, our network sucks! I blame the iPhone users for trying to use the Internet, like they pay us exorbitant rates to do."
18:40:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
18:40:48 <elliott> Vorpal: "We can't upgrade it because it's NOT OUR FAULT, you're the ones trying to use it."
18:40:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I haven't used it since forever, so...
18:41:06 <pikhq> That's the business model for every Internet provider in the US.
18:41:24 <Vorpal> US telecommunication is insane
18:41:35 <Vorpal> so is Sweden. But in a different way
18:41:38 <Vorpal> (FRA, and so on)
18:41:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, handset. If your phone can input only the characters in the mandatory GSM 7-bit alphabet, it probably doesn't much help if your network would in theory be able to support messages encoded in UTF-16.
18:42:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, err. I know my phone has an option for "use unicode" in some menu
18:42:19 <Vorpal> for SMS
18:42:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, but why do you call it handset, not phone?
18:42:34 <ais523> one of the US cellphone providers (I forget which) had an easily-accidentally-pressed button on their phone homepage which would try to access a data page and then charge you at ridiculous rates at data usage; if you asked them to cancel your data plan so that it wouldn't happen, pressing the button instead popped up a page saying you had your data plan turned off - over the Internet - then charged you for the bandwidth for that
18:42:36 <Vorpal> that is what I'm confused about
18:42:40 <ais523> I forget which, but it would fit with any of them
18:43:02 <ais523> Vorpal: is there any industry anywhere in the world that /isn't/ insane?
18:43:21 * Gregor reappears.
18:43:27 <Vorpal> ais523, "phone homepage"? Wouldn't that require a data plan to reach?
18:43:29 <Gregor> My Sprint 3G is faster than my home cable internet :P
18:44:18 <Vorpal> ais523, so you should be secure from that simply by not being able to reach it
18:44:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: Often they have a sort of whitelist of free pages.
18:44:26 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, if you didn't have a data plan it reached a page saying you didn't have a data plan, then charged you for the data needed to reach it
18:44:39 <Vorpal> hm
18:44:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a common term. Cf. the Open Handset Alliance, the group who make mobile phones.
18:44:55 <Vorpal> ais523, but that would require you to open the browser on the phone first?
18:44:57 <Vorpal> or?
18:45:04 <fizzie> "A handset is any device that is held in the hand. However, in these days, the term handset describes a mobile phone device." (Telecom Dictionary)
18:45:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah. I shall start calling a screwdriver a handset :P
18:45:50 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed, but it was easy to do by accident
18:45:54 <Vorpal> ais523, hm
18:45:59 <Vorpal> ais523, very weird
18:46:07 <Vorpal> ais523, also, couldn't you change the home page?
18:46:12 <ais523> Vorpal: it made a lot of money for the carrier, why was that not weird?
18:46:13 <fizzie> "A telephone transmitter and receiver combined in a single instrument." (OED)
18:46:18 <ais523> and I don't know the details to that level
18:46:25 <Vorpal> ais523, because it would scare away customers
18:46:25 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: it made a lot of money for the carrier, why was that not weird?
18:46:29 <Sgeo> Maliciousness deserves to be weird
18:46:29 <elliott> *-not presumably
18:46:42 <Vorpal> bad PR and so on
18:46:42 <elliott> OED is one stroke away from QED
18:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not like phone companies have any karma to start with
18:47:03 <Gregor> fizzie: "Alternatively, the press could ask for banning knives from the homes of demonstrably stupid people." X-D
18:47:09 <fizzie> How's it going with WAP, anyway? Still alive?
18:47:20 <Vorpal> haha
18:47:24 <Gregor> So, so dead.
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18:48:05 <fizzie> Apparently -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Application_Protocol#Commercial_status -- not dead in Asia, despite some i-mode competition.
18:49:44 <Gregor> <WAP> I'm big in Japan.
18:50:51 <fizzie> Isn't that an Alphaville song?
18:51:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It is..
18:51:36 <fizzie> Someone's .mod rendition was possibly my first-ever piece of tracker music I ever got: there was an ALPHAVIL.MOD on some floppy. (Or maybe .s3m.)
18:52:14 <elliott> Godzilla's big in Japan. Also, everywhere.
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18:56:11 <fizzie> Ooh, here's contents of the 8 floppies of Finnish-localized Excel 5 for Windows 3.1. There's an "asenna.exe", since fi:asenna is the second-person imperative form of en:install.
18:57:09 <fizzie> And MAGELINK.ZIP, very useful if you have two DOS computers in an IPX network and need to move data between them. It is good to keep all this important stuff.
18:59:05 <elliott> 14:16:58 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists? <--- I'd be quite surprised that nobody had unVMed it by now
18:59:09 <elliott> oh, ais is gone
18:59:16 <elliott> i have no idea what he was trying to say there
19:02:57 <elliott> fizzie: Switched to a non-tiling window manager yet? I need to adopt my opinions from *someone* and you're conveniently the last non-me person to talk.
19:04:00 <fizzie> elliott: I'm still Awesome, sorry.
19:04:07 <elliott> fizzie: More like LAMESOME.
19:04:12 <fizzie> It's the inertia of it.
19:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, rutian?
19:05:16 <Vorpal> sounds familiar
19:05:31 <elliott> Vorpal: that little IP that I wiped every few months
19:05:37 <elliott> i think you've used it
19:05:46 <elliott> Vorpal: it hosted eso-std and other stuff.
19:05:49 <Vorpal> ah
19:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think I used it though. Except for looking at the web page
19:08:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I think you did, once.
19:08:25 <elliott> I forget why.
19:08:29 <elliott> Aww, tusho.eso-std.org has not been archivated.
19:09:23 <Vorpal> elliott, surely you have a local backup?
19:09:43 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, maybe on the iMac. somewhere.
19:09:53 <elliott> Vorpal: it held exactly one (1) blog post, once
19:10:20 <elliott> Vorpal: it was a (single-user) wiki with embedded code!
19:10:24 <elliott> Vorpal: and it edited in my editor!
19:10:29 <elliott> Vorpal: The way it did this was pure EVIL.
19:10:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Every page on tusho.eso-std.org had an "Edit" link on it, which linked to e.g. http://localhost:8080/edit?page=page-title.
19:11:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I ran a webserver locally that, upon loading /edit, looked at the page parameter, started my editor with /path/to/site/page-title.markdown, and then *redirected to whatever the browser said the Referer was*.
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19:11:29 <elliott> So I'd click it, my editor would appear, and the page would stay there. Ingenious! Horrible. But ingenious.
19:13:12 <elliott> It was a rather pointless hack, come to think of it.
19:13:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: and it edited in my editor! <-- which one?
19:13:26 <Vorpal> not leaden I presume
19:13:35 <elliott> Vorpal: at the time I used TextMate, because Emacs on OS X was really irritating
19:13:42 <Vorpal> ah
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19:19:06 <elliott> hmm, what happened to n=foo in hostnames?
19:19:55 <Vorpal> elliott, turned into the more conventional ~
19:19:58 <Vorpal> elliott, some time ago
19:20:05 <Vorpal> probably around change to ircd-seven
19:22:24 <elliott> 16:41:36 --- topic: set to 'the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Oh god it smells of java.' by optbot
19:23:30 <elliott> 22:58:55 <optbot> fizzie: i think i can compile BF into it
19:23:30 <elliott> 22:59:09 <fizzie> optbot: BF into what? NURRR so confused.
19:23:30 <elliott> 22:59:09 <optbot> fizzie: lament!
19:23:50 <elliott> 23:00:35 <optbot> fizzie: it's sauna, bye for a while..
19:28:51 <elliott> Gah, plan9port doesn't seem to have a separated dial().
19:44:12 <olsner> this approximation of peach melba is quite tasty
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20:13:45 <elliott>   "\0366\0/66\0/24\0/42\0177}
20:13:47 <elliott> lolbroken
20:23:04 <elliott> olsner: my C program is slow! and broken!
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20:23:28 <olsner> elliott: you're doing it wrong
20:23:42 <olsner> write it faster, right it write
20:23:48 <elliott> "right it write" :D
20:23:52 <elliott> intentional or ironic?
20:23:59 <olsner> both, I'd say
20:24:02 <elliott> olsner: in this case, my sin appears to be using write() to do things one char at a tim
20:24:04 <elliott> *time
20:24:25 <olsner> right, the downside of write, it doesn't do any buffering but translates to one syscall per call
20:24:55 <elliott> olsner: yeah, thankfully i can do this simply
20:24:58 <elliott> by simply having an output buffer
20:28:27 <elliott> olsner: for the record, I do not recommend C for scripting tasks
20:28:28 <elliott> :P
20:28:52 <olsner> Noted. :)
20:31:08 <elliott> olsner: but now it runs instantly!
20:31:21 <olsner> sweet, O(0)?
20:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, will Mitosis Lisp be 1?
20:31:25 <elliott> yep!
20:31:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ?
20:31:30 <Vorpal> olsner, heh?
20:31:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh. yes. probably :)
20:31:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if it even is lisp!
20:31:41 <olsner> Vorpal: "instantly!"
20:31:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, a Lisp-1?
20:31:43 <Vorpal> olsner, ah
20:31:49 <elliott> olsner: aniway O(0) is reddundant
20:31:51 <elliott> dats 0(0)
20:31:54 <elliott> an 0 x 0 = 0
20:31:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what else could it be‽
20:32:05 <olsner> slightly faster than O(1)
20:32:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Lisp-Smalltalk hybrid? (Note: Smalltalk is a good language despite Sgeo.)
20:32:15 <elliott> olsner: datz 1 cuz 1 x n = n
20:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Lisptalk!
20:32:21 <elliott> sry
20:32:22 <elliott> olsner: datz 1 cuz 1 x n = 1
20:32:27 <elliott> olsner: i lernt dis in math scool
20:32:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Lalk.
20:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, the pun is strong with that idea.
20:32:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Lisp-Induced Social Awkwardness Following an Abortive Attempt at Small Talk
20:32:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ^ language name (LISAFAAST for short)
20:33:01 <elliott> aka "Lisa Fast"
20:33:22 <elliott> olsner: things I do recommend: storing your data files as part of the program
20:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So it'll use Smalltalk's OO-ness with Lisp's syntax and macros?
20:33:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Something like that! Although I actually like syntax a bit... but nothing an editor can't be a genius about, so no syntax-changing macros or anything. (Lisp-style macros are fine.)
20:33:56 <elliott> Whatever.
20:34:01 <elliott> It's all in the clouds, as they say. Do they say that?
20:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the proper expression is "air"
20:34:33 <olsner> elliott: yep, it's teh win, at least if you have the data in a form you can use right away and the data doesn't require relocation
20:35:05 <olsner> though I wonder if that relro thingy allows relocated data to be shared between processes
20:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I was reading that nomad minecraft blog. Looking at the map of the first 20 days. :D 848x16880 pixels Yes that is very very tall
20:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, so you'd define a new read function for new syntaxes?
20:36:15 <elliott> Vorpal: wow
20:36:18 <elliott> Vorpal: must be a huge save :)
20:36:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or just not have new syntaxes?
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but you can't not use Lisp syntax for everything!
20:36:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, editors that you can click any part of the program and get docs about them and cross-reference them and... is the whole point of all this.
20:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It wouldn't be LISP then!
20:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well, 6.1 MB png iirc
20:36:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I may just use Lisp syntax for everything :)
20:37:00 <elliott> *Lisp
20:37:02 <Vorpal> for the map
20:37:02 <elliott> not LISP :P
20:37:05 <elliott> Vorpal: save file, though
20:37:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that was 20 days into it
20:37:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, those were EMPHASIS caps!
20:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well. Yes. To some degree. It is not nearly as wide as my save though
20:37:31 <elliott> hmm, rand() is automatically seeded on a modern system, right?
20:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, link?
20:37:58 <Vorpal> http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/2010/10/recap-first-20-days.html
20:38:02 <Vorpal> on there
20:38:06 <Vorpal> he put it on megaupload
20:38:16 <Vorpal> so direct link to map would be impossible
20:38:51 <elliott> lines.c:183889:79: warning: trigraph ??! ignored, use -trigraphs to enable
20:38:53 <elliott> olsner: THIS IS GOING GREAT
20:39:15 <olsner> elliott: trigraphs!? wtf are you doing?
20:39:25 <elliott> olsner: it just so happens that my data strings include "??!"
20:39:28 <elliott> olsner: which is, as it happens, a trigraph
20:39:34 <elliott> so gcc... warns me about it
20:39:35 <elliott> thanks gcc!
20:40:20 <olsner> haha, so when you compile on a compiler that silently supports trigraphs, you'll have your data corrupted :)
20:40:34 <Phantom_Hoover> What does ??! turn into?
20:40:39 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: |
20:40:54 <pikhq> elliott: foo??!??! exit(1); // Gotta love the WTF operator.
20:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Trigraphs: the worst idea ever.
20:41:13 <elliott> BEST IDEA
20:41:15 <elliott> olsner: yep
20:41:21 <olsner> I do hope pikhq only knew that because he looked it up after reading elliott's line
20:41:23 <elliott> olsner: i could just escape them, but fuck that
20:42:04 <pikhq> olsner: No.
20:42:21 <pikhq> I have used trigraphs for insanity.
20:42:24 <elliott> lines.c:103227: warning: left-hand operand of comma expression has no effect
20:42:26 <elliott> what the FUCK.
20:42:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Digraphs are much much better.
20:42:52 <elliott> I... do not understand this.
20:43:01 <olsner> pikhq: stupid me, I should've expected as much from someone #esoteric...
20:43:06 <olsner> +in
20:43:08 <pikhq> (they are only handled during tokenization)
20:43:26 <elliott> does gcc do digraphs by default?
20:43:33 <elliott> i guess not
20:44:04 <fizzie> elliott: "If rand is called before any calls to srand have been made, the same sequence shall be generated as when srand is first called with a seed value of 1."
20:44:28 <olsner> you know what, you could write (or find) a silly utility that converts binary data to elf files directly
20:44:52 <elliott> fizzie: groan
20:44:55 <olsner> or at least convert everything to reliable data like \xXX or list of decimals :)
20:45:14 <elliott> olsner: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 79M Nov 15 20:44 lines.c
20:45:21 <elliott> olsner: I think anything that is more reliable would also be FAR TOO FUCKING BIG
20:45:38 <pikhq> olsner: What, like stick the binary data as a symbol in there?
20:45:43 <pikhq> olsner: *Easy*.
20:45:59 <olsner> pikhq: exactly
20:46:05 <elliott>         *bp++ = '\\';
20:46:06 <elliott>         *bp++ = ((*ip >> 6) & 7) + '0';
20:46:06 <elliott>         *bp++ = ((*ip >> 3) & 7) + '0';
20:46:06 <elliott>         *bp++ = (*ip & 7) + '0';
20:46:15 <elliott> someone plz tell me why this doesn't convert to a valid octal escape sequence
20:46:21 <elliott> i'm dumb enough that my mind is broken
20:47:04 <olsner> is ip a signed type? or even "char"?
20:47:11 <elliott> olsner: ip is char
20:47:18 <elliott> i should probably make it unsigned
20:47:19 <olsner> by default that's signed on gcc
20:47:21 <fizzie> What *do* you get into bp, then, if not a valid?
20:47:25 <elliott> right
20:47:30 <elliott> fizzie: \7xx and other shit
20:47:45 <olsner> otoh, the &7 should pretty much fix that
20:47:54 <elliott> yeah well let's see
20:48:06 <elliott> olsner: it now appears to work fine
20:48:10 <elliott> using unsigned chars and:
20:48:13 <elliott>         *bp++ = (*ip >> 6) + '0';
20:48:13 <elliott>         *bp++ = ((*ip >> 3) & 7) + '0';
20:48:13 <elliott>         *bp++ = (*ip & 7) + '0';
20:48:21 <elliott> of course, gcc doesn't exactly process the file fast.
20:48:37 <elliott> olsner: in fact, it would be like 500x quicker to do this at runtime, but THAT WOULD REQUIRE PARSING A FILE
20:48:41 <olsner> you can probably just pre-create a static elf header with the right symbol name, and replace the size of that symbol with the actual size from a binary
20:48:47 <elliott> also, my binary would be less than 70 megs
20:48:52 <elliott> and that is unacceptable
20:48:57 <fizzie> olsner: Well, right-shifting signed, negative numbers is implementation-defined, and could sign-extend, leading to 7s in the first number, instead of zero-extending it properly.
20:49:38 <elliott> olsner: I could be pragmatic and not include lines.c in the main C file and just link it separately
20:49:40 <elliott> BUT WHY?
20:49:54 <elliott> (Note: I will have to do this really soon or I shall go insane.)
20:50:16 <pikhq> "[...] I shall go insane."
20:50:33 <olsner> elliott: well, that's why, right there
20:50:42 <elliott> haha lines.c crashes emacs for a bit
20:50:59 <olsner> at the same time you start compiling it separately you can just as well fix that binary-file magic
20:51:16 <elliott> olsner: I could just write an actual parser.
20:53:55 <fizzie> elliott: It certainly does seem to enable digraphs by default:
20:53:56 <fizzie> $ echo 'int foo(int a<::>) <% return a<:42:>; %>' | gcc -xc -c -o test.o - && echo okay
20:53:56 <fizzie> okay
20:54:32 <elliott> fizzie: X_X even with -std=c89
20:54:33 <elliott> ?
20:54:38 <elliott> because digraphs are a c99 feature
20:54:56 <fizzie> Not with that.
20:55:05 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘<’ token
20:55:05 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘%’ token
20:55:05 <olsner> hmm, there is: http://tigcc.ticalc.org/doc/gnuasm.html#SEC97B in gas - perhaps a bit of global inline assembly would be the perfect way of embedding that binary file
20:56:08 <fizzie> That could work, if you just add a label and an extern-declaration if you're going to refer to whatever you're incbin'ing.
20:56:22 <fizzie> (Label in the inline asm before .incbin, that is.)
20:56:45 <elliott> olsner: doesn't split it up
20:57:41 <olsner> elliott: you need to split it up?
20:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also. I demand that all components of Mitosis be biologically-named.
20:58:09 <elliott> olsner: yep
20:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no
20:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, WHY
20:58:21 <Gregor> Also they should all end in "osis"
20:58:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no..
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21:00:23 <olsner> elliott: ok, maybe you should just go ahead and write that parser
21:01:12 <elliott> olsner: i have
21:01:14 <elliott> s/ $//
21:01:17 <elliott> olsner: it just happens to output C
21:01:25 <elliott> hi ais523, I'm compiling a 70 meg c file with gcc
21:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, why won't you use my naming convention?
21:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> WHYYYYY
21:02:50 <ais523> elliott: with or without optimisation?
21:02:54 <elliott> ais523: -Os
21:03:03 <elliott> ais523: note: the majority of the 70 megs is a big array of strings
21:03:10 <ais523> ah, OK
21:03:22 <ais523> my experience with compiling ick is that large files needed to be split up
21:03:39 <ais523> in order to avoid thrashing on occasion
21:04:11 <ais523> this was with -O2, which is much the same as -Os optimization-difficulty-wise
21:04:15 <elliott> ais523: can't really, in this case. I should just parse it at runtime, but where's the fun in that? :)
21:04:22 <ais523> (incidentally, why does -O1 even exist? what purposes are there for using it?)
21:04:29 <ais523> also, do you have -fmerge-strings on? and would it help?
21:04:30 <elliott> ais523: btw, the non-70 megs is just a few lines of actual C
21:04:40 <elliott> ais523: -fmerge-strings... does that merge identical substrings or something?
21:04:41 <olsner> elliott: if there isn't a lot of code involved you could output assembly of course, might be less gruesome to compile afterwards
21:04:45 <ais523> elliott: I think so
21:04:54 <ais523> I can't remember if it's on by default or not
21:04:55 <elliott> ais523: it *might* help, but not immensely; also the thrashing would be insane
21:05:01 <elliott> I doubt it's on by default
21:07:46 <ais523> ah, it's -fmerge-constants
21:07:51 <ais523> and it's on by default at -O1 and higher
21:07:58 <ais523> (including -Os)
21:09:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: groan <-- why groan about srand()
21:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:09:47 <elliott> because srand() is boring
21:09:52 <elliott> and i have to pass it a seed
21:10:03 <elliott> which involves using the clock or someth'
21:10:14 <Gregor> time(NULL) + getpid() /* OH NOOOOOSE */
21:10:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> olsner: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 79M Nov 15 20:44 lines.c <--- what *is* that?
21:10:26 <elliott> Gregor: ugh it's like the holocaust
21:10:35 <elliott> except specially for me
21:11:14 <olsner> Vorpal: C code, 79MB of it
21:11:17 <fizzie> In case there's any amateur #esoteric historians, here's a logfile I just ran across from Dec 7th 2002 to Jan 3rd, 2003; it's the one file that wasn't in that "old logs from fizzie" set in Gregor's log-repo. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2002-12-fizzie.txt
21:11:23 <Vorpal> olsner, yes. But how can you get that much
21:11:33 <fizzie> (It's from the system I had my IRC on before I moved it to from where the Gregor repo logs start from.)
21:11:36 <olsner> you generate it, obviously
21:11:45 <Vorpal> olsner, what does the file represent?
21:11:49 <olsner> that's the only sane way to get properly insane amounts of code
21:12:09 <elliott> Gregor: <fizzie> In case there's any amateur #esoteric historians, here's a logfile I just ran across from Dec 7th 2002 to Jan 3rd, 2003; it's the one file that wasn't in that "old logs from fizzie" set in Gregor's log-repo. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2002-12-fizzie.txt
21:12:26 <elliott> Vorpal: it represents happiness
21:12:26 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, I was already highlighted what with my name appearing in his message.
21:12:35 <elliott> Gregor: But it had 's after it!
21:12:38 <elliott> Your client could SUCK!
21:13:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you are being unintentionally unhelp you know
21:13:23 <ais523> fizzie: was clog logging then?
21:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, what does that code do?
21:13:30 <elliott> ais523: clog started in 2003
21:13:33 <elliott> Vorpal: smiles
21:13:33 <Gregor> fizzie: I already have this log under the name "more-days.log"
21:13:38 <fizzie> Gregor: Oh!
21:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, .....................................................................................................
21:13:48 <elliott> Gregor: <fizzie> I assumed those were LESS days.
21:14:03 <fizzie> Gregor: The file size was so big, I didn't look at it.
21:14:10 <elliott> X-D
21:14:16 <fizzie> Never you mind, then.
21:14:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:15:09 <ais523> fizzie: not even with head(1)?
21:15:17 <ais523> or something like less(1) that can load the file lazily?
21:15:24 <fizzie> ais523: I don't have it here locally, I was just looking at his web hg thing.
21:16:04 <Gregor> Mind you, this file is an incredible 220K :P
21:16:15 <ais523> that's large?
21:16:23 <Gregor> If your browser supports gzip, it's probably 1/10th that in bandwidth.
21:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, turns out my computer budget was considerably larger than I thought.
21:17:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is it?
21:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Go back to the original upper bound.
21:17:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $799?
21:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
21:18:02 <fizzie> Gregor: That's like over half a C64 floppy.
21:18:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll totally get on it as soon as I get this code working.
21:18:15 <elliott> hmm
21:18:27 <elliott> strlen(foo[n]) for "char *foo[]" should work... properly, right?
21:18:33 <elliott> as in not return inexplicably more...
21:18:39 <fizzie> Or is it in fact over whole? I guess those were 170k single-sided things.
21:18:48 <ais523> hmm, I typically spend around £400 on computers
21:19:07 <ais523> $799 is IIRC a bit more than that
21:19:10 <elliott> OH
21:19:11 <elliott> lawl
21:19:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: why are you buying computers in dollars?
21:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, that was in pounds.
21:19:43 <ais523> oh, £799 is quite a bit more than $799
21:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> £799 is basically the "if you go over this, GET RID OF EVERYTHING".
21:20:14 <ais523> personally, I'd choose to spend rather less than that
21:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> £400 is a comfortable target, really.
21:20:20 <ais523> but it really depends on what you want from a computer
21:20:44 <fizzie> ₤799, if it existed still, would be quite a bit less.
21:20:51 <fizzie> (Assuming ITL for the symbol.)
21:21:04 <elliott> ais523: well, Phantom_Hoover is building his own desktop and has, inexplicably, delegated the task to me
21:21:13 <elliott> ais523: presumably based on my prior happy customer or just my innate charm
21:21:19 <elliott> (the task = component selection)
21:21:28 <elliott> so he gets what he gets and if it includes a nuclear power station, so be it
21:21:51 <elliott> hmm
21:21:55 <elliott> if you do "cc -Os foo.c -o foo"
21:21:58 <elliott> does it know that everything is static?
21:22:35 <fizzie> You can stick in that -fwhole-program just in case.
21:22:57 <fizzie> Though one would think that it'd be smart enough to grok it's going to link it to a finished product.
21:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I do have a nuclear-obsessed friend.
21:23:16 -!- optbot has joined.
21:23:16 -!- optbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric?C=M;O=D | interesting error.
21:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is the same as the Japanese and aviation friends.)
21:23:43 <elliott> YESIREE
21:23:44 <elliott> THE ONE
21:23:45 <elliott> THE ONLY
21:23:55 <elliott> FORMERLY KNOWN AS "OERJAN'S TERRIBLE PUNS"
21:24:00 <elliott> AND ALSO FORMERLY KNOWN AS "OTPBOT"
21:24:03 <elliott> WE PRESENT TO YOU
21:24:05 <elliott> THE GLORIOUS
21:24:07 <elliott> -- THE RECODED! --
21:24:12 <elliott> -- THE NOT QUITE COMPLETE YET --
21:24:14 <elliott> OPTBOT!!!!!!!
21:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> optbot, say things.
21:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> NOT GOOD ENOUGH
21:24:28 <elliott> Ladies and gentlemen, thank you, and may we always live in an era with more than one babble bot to talk to.
21:24:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't re-added that yet :P
21:24:40 <elliott> In fact fungot's babble is a knockoff of optbot's.
21:24:42 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot?
21:25:03 <elliott> fungot isn't here.
21:25:03 <Phantom_Hoover> FUUUUUUNNNGOOOOOOOOOT!
21:25:05 <elliott> Because he sucks.
21:25:41 <elliott> hmm, do fork()'d processes share stdout?
21:25:46 <elliott> and if so, can their output get mingled? I would guess yes
21:25:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:26:09 <elliott> I really regret doing this in C...
21:26:13 <elliott> Vorpal: and that's what lines.c is
21:26:18 <elliott> Vorpal: everything ever said in #esoteric that clog caught.
21:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The inevitable effect of doing anything in C.
21:26:29 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
21:26:34 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:26:43 -!- fungot has joined.
21:26:50 <fizzie> Speaking of terrible bots...
21:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot!
21:26:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i've heard srfi-27 is " sources of random content of the array.
21:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> You're alive!
21:28:11 <pikhq> elliott: fork()'d processes share all file descriptors, including stdin/stdout/stderr.
21:29:05 <elliott> You know what?
21:29:06 <elliott> Fuck C.
21:29:10 <elliott> I'm writing it in rc.
21:29:48 <elliott> hmm, what's the simplest way to get a random number in non-bash?
21:30:04 <fizzie> File descriptors (well, assuming no FD_CLOEXEC flags) even survive over execve; irssi has that funky "re-exec() a new binary without disconnecting" thing.
21:32:28 <fizzie> Probably depends on what you want to depend on.
21:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what aren't you writing in C?
21:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> svmg?
21:33:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: optbot
21:33:28 <elliott> v2
21:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
21:33:31 <elliott> electric boogaloo
21:33:32 <Vorpal> elliott, but why
21:33:37 <Vorpal> anyway
21:33:39 <elliott> Vorpal: optbot v2!
21:33:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I decided that parsing files was for fuckheads.
21:33:52 <elliott> Note: I have since become a fuckhead.
21:33:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you had to parse it to turn it into C?
21:34:01 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to learn how to use AUCTeX; fails.
21:34:07 <elliott> Vorpal: well yes, but that was ... easier
21:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: i forget why
21:34:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's easy
21:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Primarily due to having a poor grasp of LaTeX at best.
21:34:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you type shit
21:34:19 <elliott> and then you use the keys.
21:34:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, in minecraft: if you *do* come across ice, how do you get it in your inventory? I heard you could get water into nether this way so...
21:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, but I'm not sure what to type.
21:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: latex
21:36:10 <Phantom_Hoover> And here we reach the crux of the problem.
21:38:09 <elliott> hmm, can dc output a random number?
21:39:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
21:39:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless it's completely undocumented
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21:39:18 <pikhq> elliott: Well, you can implement a PRNG in it...
21:39:28 <Vorpal> elliott, what about reading /dev/urandom ?
21:39:41 <Vorpal> elliott, tr to strip everything but digits
21:39:42 <Vorpal> or such
21:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the difference between /dev/random and /dev/urandom?
21:40:10 <Vorpal> the documented one. Which is that urandom will not block.
21:40:18 <Vorpal> due to how it is implemented
21:42:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: /dev/random will wait until there's enough entropy to give a true-random number (although a friend of mine at University semi-reliably informs me that it overestimates how much entropy it has); /dev/urandom will substitute a cryptosecure random number if there isn't enough entropy for a true-random one, so it always returns instantly
21:43:03 <ais523> the result is that for basically anything, /dev/urandom is good enough and the one you should use
21:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> How does it know how much entropy it has?
21:43:51 <elliott> ais523: in fact, even for crypto purposes, /dev/urandom is preferable
21:43:58 <elliott> I know this because I READ IT!
21:43:59 <ais523> it increases it a small amount whenever it mixes in a random source
21:44:06 <ais523> elliott: I wouldn't be surprised at that
21:44:17 <ais523> although, /dev/random is no worse than /dev/urandom apart from being substantially slower
21:44:44 <pikhq> Unless you have a gigantic cluster of entropy generators on your computer.
21:45:02 <pikhq> Say, replacing the state of Kansas with a set of Geiger counters.
21:45:45 <ais523> pikhq: that sounds like overkill
21:46:06 <pikhq> Yup!
21:48:49 <elliott> what do freenode's pings look like?
21:49:59 <ais523> hmm, it only pings if you don't talk for a while
21:50:07 <ais523> IIRC, though, it's PING :server
21:50:17 <ais523> where server is the name of the server you're connected to
21:50:33 <ais523> although that could have been a different ircd, it was so long since I checked that
21:52:27 <ais523> ugh, seems loggic didn't log pings, I checked
21:52:31 <ais523> (it logged everything /else/...)
21:53:18 <elliott> no biggie
21:55:18 <Vorpal> elliott, TNT canons in minecraft look fun
21:55:22 <Vorpal> dangerous too
21:56:07 <olsner> pachelbel's canon in TNT, that does sound a bit dangerous
21:56:15 <Vorpal> aaargh
21:56:18 <Vorpal> cannon*
21:56:49 <Vorpal> olsner, also argh: why it is a good piece, why do people think of that every time someone days canon. There are many others.
21:57:41 <Gregor> Because it's olde and Bach liked it.
21:58:33 <Gregor> And in spite of the fact that it's an obscenely repetitive piece of garbage (even for a canon), hey, Bach liked it :P
21:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Our mere opinions pale in the face of Bach's!
21:59:15 <Gregor> Exactly!
22:01:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have any idea how to actually get ice, except by trickery.
22:02:41 -!- Sasha has joined.
22:04:49 <fizzie> As for random numbers, you can take them out of awk, with something like awk 'BEGIN{print int(16*rand());}' < /dev/null for an integer in the [0, 15] range. I'm sure there's something simpler too, and I haven't checked if that works for plain-POSIX awk.
22:05:28 <fizzie> (Or the random devices, of course.)
22:06:00 <elliott> fizzie: rand()*BIG isn't very well-distributed though.
22:07:54 <fizzie> "od -An -N3 -i /dev/urandom" gives you a decimal integer in the range [0, 2^24-1], with some whitespace in front; no messing around with uglily filtering only digits out of the random bytes.
22:08:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
22:08:41 <fizzie> "od -An -N4 -tu4 /dev/urandom" will give one in [0, 2^32-1].
22:09:30 <elliott> fizzie: Now get me one in [0, 1728038] :P
22:09:39 <elliott> I wish dc just had a random instruction.
22:09:43 <fizzie> Just take the modulo, it's well-enough distributed.
22:10:01 <fizzie> I assume you have something that can compute. :p
22:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover> What *is* the difference between TeX and LaTeX?
22:12:13 <fizzie> echo `od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom` 1728038%p | dc
22:12:20 <fizzie> That seems like reasonably workingy thing.
22:12:23 <elliott> TOPIC #esoteric :156 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :1263442 :save:args :165 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :stack :empty :155 :is :unimplemented :empty :stack :155 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :164 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :165 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :155 :is :unimplemented :empty :stack :155 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :un
22:12:23 <elliott> implemented :164 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :3
22:12:25 <fizzie> Except +1 since you wanted that range.
22:12:44 <elliott> fizzie: Actually not +1 there.
22:13:01 <fizzie> Oh, so you want [0, 1728038) then.
22:13:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: LaTeX is a macro package on top of TeX. TeX itself is very imperative and layout-concerned. LaTeX is more semantic.
22:13:11 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah. Or something.
22:13:50 <elliott> ;   n=`{echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount % p | dc}
22:13:51 <elliott> ; echo $n
22:13:51 <elliott> stack empty 8846169905319014834
22:13:52 <elliott> Hmm.
22:14:21 <fizzie> Sounds like an empty $linecount there, but who knows.
22:14:42 <elliott> Oh, indeed.
22:14:45 <elliott> ;   n=`{echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount'%p' | dc}
22:14:45 <elliott> ; echo $n
22:14:45 <elliott> 543812 156 is unimplemented 145 is unimplemented 543812
22:14:46 <elliott> what
22:14:55 <elliott> ; echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount'%p'
22:14:55 <elliott> 1867614512691035130 1728038%p lines%p
22:14:56 <elliott> Ahhhh.
22:15:38 <elliott> fizzie:   sed $n'p;'$x'q;d' <lines
22:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: What could go wrong!
22:16:18 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, fyi,
22:16:18 <elliott> while(){
22:16:19 <elliott>   settopic
22:16:19 <elliott>   sleep 900
22:16:19 <elliott> }&
22:16:24 <elliott> Does *not* die with the shell script it's started from.
22:16:28 <fizzie> Anyway, with -N8 -tu8 that takes a random number in the [0, 2^64-1] range, so the bias with modulo-1728038 will be that some lines are taken with a probability of 0.00000057869097786042607 and some with 0.00000057869097786048028, while they should be uniformly 0.00000057869097786044057.
22:17:49 <fizzie> Both are within 0.00000000000000000004 of the proper probability, so...
22:18:33 <fizzie> (I wouldn't be surprised if some "od"s would find it difficult to work with 64-bit numbers, though.)
22:18:38 -!- digimunk has left (?).
22:25:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:28:32 <ais523> elliott: <dsies quoting OpenBSD>     Thank you for your OpenBSD Order! In case of problems or questions about this order, please contact austin@openbsd.org    Order number 2010/11/15-10:40:25-20640: Your order currently is: USD $20.00 [DON] DONATION to the OpenBSD Project Total: USD $20.00 + Shipping.
22:28:45 <ais523> since when did donations charge shipping?
22:29:21 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:30:08 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:30:23 <pikhq> There are still 336 $10,000 bills in circulation. :D
22:30:48 <pikhq> (well, at least as far as the US Treasury knows)
22:32:43 <ais523> I doubt people would exactly circulate a $10,000 bill
22:33:25 <pikhq> Yes, yes, you'd sell it at auction instead.
22:33:35 <pikhq> Still legal tender.
22:33:59 <ais523> "legal tender" has a very specific meaning
22:34:01 <fizzie> ais523: The paypal donation link at openbsd.org/donations.html has "&no_shipping=1" in the URL; their own custom order system (which is primarly meant if you want to combine a donation and a regular order of openbsd fluff) probably just can't handle such fanciness.
22:34:10 <ais523> it turns out, for instance, that Scottish currency is not legal tender in Scotland
22:34:29 <pikhq> There is no legal tender in Scotland.
22:34:37 <ais523> pikhq: indeed
22:34:50 <ais523> fizzie: I thought it would be something like that, but it's still hilarious
22:34:54 <pikhq> In the US, federal reserve notes are legal tender, even if they *were* issued over a century ago.
22:35:07 <ais523> (legal tender is something that you have to accept to settle a debt, if it's of the right value)
22:35:35 <pikhq> (I know. $10,000 bills are legal tender.)
22:35:47 <pikhq> (and worth more than face value besides)
22:37:01 <ais523> pikhq: in the UK, the Royal Mint let people pre-order £5 coins nowadays, on the basis that they nearly always end up being worth more than face value
22:37:17 <pikhq> ais523: Wow.
22:37:19 <ais523> they make a profit on them too, on the basis that the materials for them cost less than £5 and they basically never end up in general circulation
22:37:26 -!- gm|lap has joined.
22:37:29 <ais523> thus it doesn't screw up inflation or anything like that
22:37:56 <pikhq> Are £5 coins just commemorative releases or something?
22:37:58 <ais523> yep
22:38:16 <ais523> (presumably, they aren't legally allowed to sell them for any value other than £5)
22:40:06 <pikhq> Closest the US has to that is the series of bullion coins.
22:40:39 <pikhq> Which are worth significantly more than their face value as raw materials alone.
22:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, have I previously professed my utter bafflement at MathML?
22:41:39 <pikhq> For instance, the American Buffalo coin has a face value of $50. And is about $1510 worth of gold.
22:41:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:42:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:42:49 <pikhq> I don't think they're actually legal tender though, in spite of being made by the US Mint.
22:43:17 <elliott> <ais523> (legal tender is something that you have to accept to settle a debt, if it's of the right value)
22:43:19 <ais523> pikhq: you'd be insane to /not/ accept one to settle a $50 debt...
22:43:31 <pikhq> Nope, they are *actually* legal tender for their face value.
22:43:31 <elliott> ais523: please tell me that this means in Scotland, you could refuse to accept Scottish money to settle a debt
22:43:37 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
22:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: indefinitely?
22:43:59 <elliott> "Okay, sir, I have your money!" "Bugger off." "But I want to clear my d-" *slam*
22:44:02 <ais523> elliott: presumably, you wouldn't be able to actually /claim/ on the debt if you'd repeatedly rebuffed attempts to pay you
22:44:10 <ais523> the courts tend to look down on that sort of thing
22:44:17 <pikhq> ais523: Not common law. ;)
22:45:46 <elliott> from #plan9
22:45:47 <elliott> <Elemir> 01:29:18]<srm> 9965 GNU, an asteroid named after the GNU Project
22:45:47 <elliott> <Elemir> [01:29:53]<kfx> I hope that's the one that hits earth and extinguishes all life
22:45:47 <elliott> <Elemir> [01:30:03]<kfx> the last words on my dying lips will be "I told you so"
22:46:19 <ais523> there's an asteroid named after GNU?
22:46:31 <elliott> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9965_GNU
22:46:34 <elliott> 9965 GNU is a C-type main belt asteroid. It orbits the Sun once every 3.76 years.[2]
22:46:34 <elliott> Discovered on March 5, 1992 by Spacewatch, it was given the provisional designation "1992 EF2". It was later renamed "GNU" after the GNU project, whose software is important to academic computing.[3]
22:46:38 <elliott> Other free-software-related asteroid names:
22:46:38 <elliott>     * 9885 Linux
22:46:38 <elliott>     * 9793 Torvalds
22:46:38 <elliott>     * 9882 Stallman
22:46:56 <elliott> ais523: there's so many asteroids that they practically give away the names for free :)
22:48:17 <ais523> well, indeed
22:48:22 <ais523> they must be rather short of inspiration
22:48:29 <ais523> is there an asteroid called Microsoft?
22:48:32 <elliott> let's hope not
22:48:52 <elliott> ais523: there are two pest insects named after Bush and Cheney IIRC, but it was meant as a homage :(
22:49:06 <elliott> (species, that is)
22:49:55 <ais523> elliott: four were named at the same time, three after prominent Republicans, and one after Darth Vader
22:50:08 <elliott> ais523: heh
22:50:14 <elliott> ais523: I know the Bush/Cheney ones were confirmed to be a homage, though
22:50:21 <elliott> at least, that's what they said
22:50:32 <elliott> they could be lying for obvious reasons
22:50:55 <ais523> indeed
22:52:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:53:17 <fizzie> There are quite a few dinosaur species up there, too; though I guess that's a sensible name for a big thing.
22:54:41 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:55:28 <fizzie> And then there's that whole set of consecutively 9617 Grahamchapman, 9618 Johncleese, 9619 Terrygilliam, 9620 Ericidle, 9621 Michaelpalin and 9622 Terryjones.
22:56:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:44 <fizzie> Spacewatch has also discovered and named the 9548 Fortran; maybe we should petition for Brainfuck or Befunge or something next?
22:57:22 <ais523> Brainfuck would be a great asteroid name
22:57:52 <Gregor> ais523: ... yes.
22:59:49 <elliott> ais523: Oracle appear to be spamming everyone who has ever given their email to Sun
22:59:51 <elliott> [[Dear Customer,
22:59:51 <elliott> Oracle University UK would like to extend a warm welcome to you!
22:59:51 <elliott> We are doing our very best to ensure the transition from Sun Learning Services to Oracle University goes as smoothly as possible. In order to facilitate this transition we would like to provide you with some basic information to help you.]]
22:59:58 <elliott> or at least, me :)
23:00:11 <fizzie> Oh, and Knuth has his own rock too (21656 Knuth).
23:00:17 <ais523> "Oracle University UK"?
23:00:47 <ais523> elliott: the Java API is now on oracle.com rather than sun.com (although they've put redirects in for every page, fortunately)
23:00:58 <ais523> it felt so strange linking there for my students
23:01:40 <elliott> <ais523> "Oracle University UK"?
23:01:45 <elliott> some Oracle docs site or something
23:02:07 <ais523> what a pretentious name
23:03:46 <elliott> ais523: it is /Oracle/
23:07:20 <elliott> ais523: <a href="donations.html"><blink>Donate to stop<br>the blinking!</blink></a> --openssh.com
23:07:46 <Gregor> elliott: ... no way ...
23:07:52 <elliott> Gregor: Yes way.
23:08:05 <Gregor> zomg, there it is.
23:08:10 <Gregor> I'll bet it's bad at tracking that :P
23:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: they probably link you to a member's only copy of the site without that :P
23:09:40 <Gregor> Mmmmmmmmmm
23:09:42 <Gregor> Yeah
23:09:49 <elliott> Vorpal:
23:09:50 <elliott> 01:40:04 <tusho> AnMaster: pirate it.
23:09:50 <elliott> 01:40:11 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't do that...
23:09:50 <elliott> 01:40:35 <AnMaster> I don't break the law like that
23:09:53 <elliott> Vorpal: HOW FAR YOU HAVE SUNK
23:10:10 <fizzie> http://openssh.com/?donated=yes -- aww, it didn't stop the blinking. :/
23:10:21 <fizzie> Maybe admin=yes, then...
23:10:23 <elliott> Gregor: Or maybe you get an account on openssh.com, and you have to use ssh to set up ssh forwarding so that http://localhost:8080/ points to the site (only served on openssh.com's localhost) without the blinking.
23:10:26 <elliott> Gregor: Dogfooding!
23:11:12 <Gregor> X-D
23:11:40 <elliott> Gregor: Or maybe donating gets you the instructions "Access the blink-less site with: $ lynx openssh.com"
23:11:43 <elliott> (Is lynx GPL?)
23:12:16 <fizzie> I thought it was.
23:12:50 <ais523> elliott: Google's excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Lynx says yes
23:12:56 <ais523> the article itself doesn't, though
23:13:07 <elliott> ais523: heh
23:13:29 <fizzie> It says to me, in the infobox.
23:14:15 <ais523> citation is to http://lynx.isc.org/lynx2.8.7/lynx2-8-7/COPYHEADER
23:14:22 <Gregor> [e]links[ 2] is better :P
23:14:25 <ais523> fizzie: ah; still, the infobox has different wording from the Google quote
23:14:30 <ais523> Gregor: I like w3m
23:14:59 <Gregor> ais523: There seems to be no current links that supports JS, and neither does w3m (although w3m has images by some bizarre magic)
23:15:32 <fizzie> I think we took a look at how w3m (was it w3m?) does images; it was pretty bizarre indeed.
23:15:38 <ais523> Gregor: it makes images into links that spawn an external image viewer, IIRC
23:15:59 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, but how does it know where to put them?
23:16:09 <Gregor> ais523: Even if you're using e.g. konsole, it draws the image at the right place.
23:16:25 <fizzie> Gregor: There was a really kludgy heuristic for the offsets.
23:16:28 <ais523> oh, I never noticed it was putting them in the right places
23:16:33 <Gregor> fizzie: Yowza.
23:17:30 <pikhq> Gregor: Uh, I'm pretty sure Elinks supports Javascript.
23:17:40 <pikhq> I *know* it depends on SpiderMonkey.
23:17:44 <fizzie> I can't be sure it was exactly w3m; but we did take a look at one text-mode browser that magicked images on top of console sort-of in the right places.
23:17:56 <Gregor> pikhq: It doesn't work with recent SpiderMonkey.
23:18:00 <pikhq> fizzie: That's w3m.
23:18:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Aaaw.
23:18:21 <Gregor> pikhq: And Links 2, which had its own interpreter, has it all commented out now X-D
23:18:48 <fizzie> Gregor: "it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;"
23:19:10 <elliott> ais523: do you use w3m as a pager too?
23:19:10 <Gregor> fizzie: Holy fuuuuuuuuuuuck X-D
23:19:12 <elliott> it's meant to be :-P
23:19:18 <ais523> elliott: no, I generally use less
23:19:20 <fizzie> I think Vorpal said it breaks in his terminal.
23:19:23 <elliott> <fizzie> Gregor: "it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;"
23:19:26 <elliott> A W E S O M E
23:19:41 <Gregor> elliott: The most horrifying thing is that it works.
23:19:42 <elliott> ais523: w3m can't load non-regular files, alas
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23:22:37 <pikhq> Huh.
23:22:49 <fizzie> Heh, normally tunes.org logs open just fine as plaintext, but the day for that w3m discussion -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.05.02 -- has a lot of \x0f's from myndzi near the top, so at least my browser wants to save it since it's obviously a binary file. (Even though it still comes with content-type: text/plain.)
23:22:57 <pikhq> w3m is short for "WWW wo miru" (WWWを見る).
23:23:06 <pikhq> Did not realise.
23:23:34 <elliott> fizzie: That happens to me, too.
23:23:52 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't follow where the "3" came from for that.
23:23:53 <fizzie> Another tidbit of magic: "It also finds the terminal window by looking what window has the input focus."
23:23:54 <elliott> fizzie: botte, of course, will have nicely-formatted clog logs. Also your logs. Also anyone else's logs I can merge in. Also botte's own logs.
23:23:57 <Sgeo> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Lisp-Smalltalk hybrid? (Note: Smalltalk is a good language despite Sgeo.)
23:24:06 <elliott> Sgeo: I CAN'T HEAR YOU
23:24:08 <elliott> Sgeo: I CAN'T HEAR YOU
23:24:09 <elliott> Sgeo: I CAN'T HEAR YOU
23:24:11 <elliott> Gregor: w3 = www
23:24:12 <Sgeo> The way you talk about it, you'd think that I was more than a fan
23:24:18 <Gregor> elliott: So where did the "wo" go?
23:24:23 <pikhq> Disappeared.
23:24:29 <elliott> Gregor: Just like you drop "of" and the like in English abbreviations.
23:24:36 <pikhq> First, it's a grammatical particle, so nobody cares.
23:24:44 <Gregor> Mmm, I was trying to interpret it like i18n X-P
23:24:46 <elliott>  Related pages
23:24:46 <elliott>     * Sakamoto Hironori's Homepage
23:24:46 <elliott>       The best contributer's page.
23:24:48 <elliott> --w3m.sf.net
23:24:56 <elliott> All the other contributors suck.
23:25:06 <Sgeo> That somehow Phantom_Hoover might think that my liking a language automatically means it's bad
23:25:11 <elliott> "W3m has many siblings/friends."
23:25:20 <elliott> Well, I thought we were just friends, but then she became my sister.
23:25:54 <elliott> Gregor: What's scarier is when you run something in an xterm and it somehow has images: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/W3m-wikipedia.png
23:25:57 <elliott> HOWWWW
23:26:07 <Gregor> elliott: ... that's what we were talking about like five minutes ago.
23:26:13 <pikhq> Second, it's Hepburn-romanised as "o", anyways.
23:26:13 <pikhq> Third, it can be considered a suffix, rather than a seperate word.
23:26:13 <pikhq> (it's a fairly arbitrary designation, though)
23:26:20 <elliott> Gregor: I thought we were just talking about where it knew to start the image viewer.
23:26:30 <elliott> External, that is.
23:26:33 <elliott> I guess that made no sense to me either.
23:26:52 <pikhq> God damn cable getting unplugged.
23:27:00 <Gregor> elliott: It puts the window-frame-free image viewer at the correct location for the terminal emulator and screen.
23:27:11 <elliott> Gregor: ...and then moves it around?
23:27:16 <Gregor> Yup
23:27:24 <elliott> Gregor: That is the best worst thing ever X-D
23:27:29 <Gregor> Yes.
23:27:37 <elliott> Gregor: It'd be better with xterm's Tektronix emulation.
23:27:41 <elliott> That can embed graphs, at least.
23:28:27 <Gregor> I wonder if it can do the same on vt1 with fbdev :)
23:28:31 <fizzie> Gregor: If my memory is correct, it does actually draw the image by itself, instead of using a separate program for that; and the code was too messy for me to tell whether it just acquired somehow a graphics context to the terminal window (which is what it *looked* like it was doing) or just did the more reasonable (well, relatively speaking) thing of opening a popup-styled window and put it in the right place.
23:28:50 <fizzie> Gregor: "There's similar code for linux framebuffer, to draw directly into it. I think elinks or links2 or something supported the framebuffer like that too."
23:28:58 <Gregor> fizzie: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs
23:28:59 <fizzie> See, we covered everything you might wonder.
23:29:20 <Gregor> fizzie: links2 just draws everything with the framebuffer, w3m uses normal text mode for everything but graphics, making w3m far more magical :P
23:29:29 <elliott> fizzie: Please tell me it supports using libcaca when you just have bytes and that's it.
23:29:40 <pikhq> fizzie: Elinks and links2 can just do graphical rendering.
23:29:44 <pikhq> elliott: God I hope so.
23:29:55 <Gregor> pikhq: Uhhh, elinks can't do graphics.
23:29:57 <Sgeo> libcaca == aa-like thing?
23:29:58 <elliott> Hey, w3m has a man replacement.
23:30:00 <elliott> (w3mman)
23:30:02 <elliott> I wonder why.
23:30:28 <elliott> OMG
23:30:30 <elliott> Headers are links to the header file
23:30:34 <Gregor> pikhq: Nor can it do JS right now *sobblecopter*
23:30:36 <elliott> Manpages are links to the pages
23:30:43 <elliott> w3mman is the BEST THING EVER except it doesn't scroll nicely
23:30:45 <pikhq> Gregor: Argh, so it can't.
23:30:55 <elliott> Gregor: Please record the noise of a sobblecopter.
23:30:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure about libcaca; I've used it as an external image-viewer for something, but I'm not sure it can use it to draw on page.
23:31:09 <Gregor> pikhq: I was looking into this just recently to see if I could add *links* to http://js.codu.org/ :P
23:31:26 <Sgeo> WTF Reddit is hallucinating on me
23:31:40 <elliott> How do you enable images in w3m ;_;
23:31:45 <elliott> I have it enabled in the options
23:31:54 <Gregor> elliott: Requires a "plugin" or something, w3m-img or whatever it's called.
23:32:09 <Sgeo> I had a phantom orangered
23:32:56 <elliott> Gregor: Already installed bitch
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23:33:05 <Gregor> elliott: Then Idonno :)
23:33:27 <elliott> lawl it wants a w3mimgdispaly command which ivn't got
23:33:38 <elliott> how do you list files in a package again
23:33:52 <Gregor> dpkg-query -L <pkg>
23:34:29 <elliott> /usr/lib/w3m/w3mimgdisplay
23:34:33 <elliott> fucking debian shoving shit into /usr/lib
23:34:55 <Gregor> Yeah, should be /usr/libexec
23:35:03 <elliott> Gregor: should be /usr/bin :p
23:35:17 <Gregor> /usr/libexec forevars
23:35:32 <elliott> "Maximum processes for parallel image loading"
23:35:35 <elliott> why is this a setting :D
23:35:48 <elliott> Gregor: Holy shit
23:36:04 <elliott> Gregor: It... raped my terminal.
23:36:10 <Gregor> 8-D
23:36:11 <elliott> Gregor: http://i.imgur.com/q0dDC.png
23:36:19 <fizzie> Gregor: Anyway, http://p.zem.fi/x11-w3mimg.c (see w3mimg_x11open at the bottom) and then http://p.zem.fi/w3mimgdisplay.c what it uses to keep the image synced.
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23:36:28 <elliott> Gregor: Gahaha, minimise and unminimise and it disappears until you scroll or something.
23:36:34 <elliott> Gregor: Oh wow, it goes over my menu bar.
23:36:45 <elliott> This is the least reliable thing EVER
23:36:58 <elliott> Gregor: Dear god, if you uncomment out the JS it could do websplat.
23:37:04 <elliott> Gregor: HORRIBLY
23:37:24 <Gregor> elliott: Minus its obscene lack of necessary features ...
23:37:28 <fizzie> elliott: Hey, there *is* a rather comprehensive survey of how different terminals arrange their subwindows in x11_w3mimg.c.
23:37:37 <elliott> Gregor: It has images, it has JavaScript. What more do you need?
23:37:44 <Gregor> elliott: Actual DOM features.
23:37:46 <elliott> fizzie: Who implemented this and where do I send hugs X-D
23:37:53 <elliott> Gregor: Fiine, just port V8 to it.
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23:37:59 <Gregor> elliott: v8 != DOM
23:38:13 <elliott> Gregor: Just port Chrome to w3m
23:38:26 <elliott> Gregor: Should I make that sentence more ridiculous? :P
23:38:30 <Gregor> elliott: Yes.
23:38:42 <elliott> Gregor: Just port Linux to w3m, problem solved
23:38:49 <elliott> NO WAIT
23:38:51 <elliott> Gregor: Just port X11 to w3m, problem solved
23:39:16 <Gregor> elliott: Probably the most "feasible" system would be to run a graphical browser headless and "serialize" its DOM to a textual view.
23:39:30 <elliott> Hey, Linus uses Chrome.
23:39:34 <elliott>     prompt$ LD_PRELOAD mymemcpy.so /opt/google/chrome/google-chrome &
23:39:40 <elliott> -- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c38
23:39:45 <elliott> Gregor: <3
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23:40:08 <elliott> "(and I tested the Daughtry thing too, although I am not convinced it
23:40:08 <elliott> sounds all that much better without the sound corruption)"
23:41:46 <fizzie> Gregor: Anyway, the code is too messy for me to actually figure out, but it really *looks* as if it were just acquiring a graphics context to the terminal window and drawing directly on top of that, but I guess it still does the reasonable (well, relatively) thing of creating a frameless popup window on top.
23:41:50 <fizzie> (It's just that it does XCreateGC(xi->display, xi->window, ..) and earlier xi->window has been initialized with XGetInputFocus; it really doesn't seem to actually *create* a window anywhere.)
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23:43:17 <Sgeo> a) The cat must vacate my room
23:43:17 <fizzie> (Well, XGetInputFocus and then some walking of the window tree to get to the actual text container in some cases.)
23:43:27 <Sgeo> b) This applies to all rules where the cat is present in my room
23:43:32 <Gregor> c) The cat must vacate its bowels
23:44:44 <elliott> EVIL ARCHAEOLOGY
23:44:48 <elliott> of source code
23:44:55 <elliott> practised by... evil programmer indiana jones
23:51:28 <pikhq> elliott: Looks like Google's spriting bit you.
23:51:44 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. I am radioactive now!
23:52:08 <pikhq> elliott: They use a single image containing all the images on their page and use CSS to display the relevant portions.
23:53:02 <elliott> pikhq: I'm also Spider-Man.
23:53:39 <pikhq> Woots.
23:54:35 <Gregor> pikhq: Argh, yes, that kills WebSplat too >: (
23:54:43 <Gregor> Well, not kills, but makes wonky.
23:55:29 <Sgeo> You mean, WebSplat doesn't include its own ... actually, I have only a vague idea of what I wanted to say.
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