00:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, if you don't call the stages of Mitosis development {pro,prometa,meta,ana,telo}phase I shall be severely put out.
00:01:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As if I can quantify them that precisely.
00:02:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I built such a boat paternoster lift now btw
00:02:21 <elliott> Vorpal: What's the point of that?
00:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, to get to the bottom of the map quickly
00:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, talking about seconds from ground to bedrock here
00:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not in both directions
00:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway jumping works if you have a 2 deep water pit at the bottom
00:03:12 <Vorpal> that will make it safe
00:03:13 <zzo38> My clock is strange. It says either 12:00 or 7:30 all the time (nothing else), and it sometimes blinks off and then back on in a few seconds, and it sometimes makes noise (even though the alarm is not enabled).
00:03:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what the boat is for
00:03:34 <Vorpal> elliott, get notch to implement it
00:03:54 <elliott> Vorpal: If you believe in it, it is there.
00:04:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, what? XD is this a far fetched peter pan reference?
00:04:29 <fizzie> There is also that other thing: if you jump down and hit the active field of a ladder, you'll automagically slow down to the ladder-descending speed. (But you can accidentally hit the top part of the ladder too, and go splat, so I guess water's safer.)
00:04:37 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's Notchianity.
00:04:49 <elliott> Vorpal: If you truly, in your deepest heart, believe in a feature, then Notch will have made it so.
00:04:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I stand by this principle in all areas of life.
00:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you *are* sleep deprived
00:05:23 <elliott> Vorpal: (Notch is actually from another universe, higher than ours. How Minecraft looks to us is how our universe looks to him. He created Minecraft to illustrate this to us.)
00:05:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, player fall faster than the boat
00:05:42 <olsner> pogo stick makes me think of pogo [music] aka fagottron
00:05:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least when boat is empty
00:05:53 <fizzie> Air resistance, maybe.
00:06:18 <elliott> olsner: "Alice" is in my head forever.
00:06:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, thus it is not safe in general to jump down that hole that is used for the boat. Cost me quite a bit of hitpoints. Thankfully I had new armour before...
00:06:47 <Vorpal> hitting the boat hurts
00:07:11 <Vorpal> the boat hitting your head while you stand still? Perfectly safe!
00:07:32 <Vorpal> I love the screwy physics
00:07:56 <elliott> Vorpal: By the way, I have JACK-O-LANTERNS in my new game. OH YEAH.
00:08:23 <elliott> Vorpal: A ton of coal ore (30+ of it) right at the start of the game + patch of lanterns shortly after = Maximum early-game profit :P
00:08:35 <elliott> I guess "early-game" is ill-defined in an indefinitely long game.
00:08:47 <Vorpal> elliott, a patch of pumpkins you mean
00:09:10 <Vorpal> elliott, tried to use one as a helmet yet?
00:09:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what would be awesome? If, after you move so far away from a given chunk, it just stores the random seed instead. And when you go back, it generates with that seed, but with another parameter randomised slightly.
00:09:26 <Vorpal> elliott, (note: works, but no actual protection)
00:09:36 <elliott> Vorpal: So it'd look like how it did before, same basic structure, but different -- environmental changes.
00:09:45 <elliott> Admittedly you'd lose all your modifications. Blame it on the wind.
00:09:55 <olsner> elliott: "Alice" is nice :) so are all the others, of course
00:09:56 <Vorpal> elliott, try it, it's cool
00:10:10 <elliott> olsner: I haven't heard many of the others, but meh. :P
00:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway 30 coal isn't much. I have a double-chest here marked "coal"
00:10:34 <olsner> re-listening to alice now, but iirc expialidocious is another of the better ones
00:10:42 <Vorpal> and then one marked "other ores"
00:10:49 <Vorpal> wait, forgot the redstone one
00:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: You've been playing a lot. :P
00:10:58 <elliott> I did this in one daytime.
00:11:00 <Vorpal> other ores is diamond and gold
00:11:01 <elliott> Or was it two? No, one, I think.
00:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, also I'm building a fortress out of obsidian walls for the lower level
00:11:34 <olsner> if I knew my shit I'd like to run off and make something similar from one of the star trek movies
00:11:48 <elliott> olsner: the Enterprise-D was constructed :P
00:11:49 <Vorpal> elliott, this will protect against creeper explosions. Due to obsidian being so hard.
00:12:00 <elliott> olsner: of course doing it manually would be near-impossible due to the raw materials you'd need
00:12:06 <olsner> elliott: not talking about minecraft, lol
00:12:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Build a huge castle and live in it.
00:12:13 <elliott> olsner: so... make a spaceship :P
00:12:26 <elliott> olsner: i don't know what the context is
00:12:35 <olsner> elliott: pogo music, still
00:13:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, not sure what I need except from portal room, crafting room, storage room, minecart station. Boat elevator is for use at the mines.
00:13:43 <olsner> unfortunate that KHAAAAN! is already so well/over-used
00:14:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Build a spire way to the top and some elevator to get there. (Or stairs?)
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00:14:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Just for watching the monsters at night, MAKING STRATEGIC DECISIONS.
00:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, did that in creative before
00:14:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Omg, you should build an underground railway leading to your base.
00:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I have such a system...
00:14:53 <elliott> Vorpal: So you can explore far, building rail as you go, hop on a Minecart, express way back.
00:14:56 <elliott> All my good ideas are taken!
00:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Isn't it a pain to keep making tracks and making space for them, though?
00:15:21 <Vorpal> elliott, issue with spire to max altitude: everything on ground too small to see at that height.
00:15:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well I use a 2x2 tunnel well below the surface
00:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: eh, i built to cloud altitude
00:15:47 <elliott> and could see spiders on land
00:15:54 <elliott> their red eyes a pixel big
00:16:06 <elliott> Vorpal: it was in a narrow bit of water between two islands though
00:16:09 <elliott> and the islands were a bit raised
00:16:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you could put a workbench/furnace there too, monitor and get work done :P
00:16:38 <Vorpal> there is a natural formation in one of my games that reaches max altitude for a tree on top of a overhang
00:16:44 <Vorpal> that huge overhang one
00:16:48 <Vorpal> you saw the screenshots
00:17:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a furnace? Not enough. I use 8 in parallel nowdays :P
00:17:26 <elliott> Vorpal: But it's authentic, for those camp-on-the-roof evenings!
00:17:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and I need a few chests of course. To store the ore in
00:17:54 <Vorpal> I do the burning in bulk
00:18:08 <Vorpal> like 64 iron per furnace (which means 8 coal)
00:18:17 <Vorpal> (since 1 coal gives 8 operations)
00:18:23 <elliott> Vorpal: You're polluting the Minecraftmosphere.
00:18:29 <elliott> Go back to sustainable furnacing methods.
00:18:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well I could use wood
00:18:43 <elliott> Vorpal: No, burn chickens.
00:18:52 <elliott> Actually enemies are renewable aren't they?
00:18:56 <elliott> So you could just harvest them.
00:19:04 <Vorpal> each wood gives me 1.5 operations
00:19:13 <Vorpal> which is a lot more annoying to calculate with
00:19:46 <Vorpal> ah nice. A huge deposit of clay
00:19:55 <Vorpal> what a pity it is under water
00:20:18 <elliott> Vorpal: just DESTROY THE WATER
00:20:45 <Vorpal> oh well, *goes get tons of sand to drain the area*
00:20:54 <Vorpal> elliott, no, you drain it
00:20:59 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of work
00:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, I don't know what mod you use, but I don't use the same one
00:22:09 <elliott> If you can punch neat little blocks of tree trunk off and have the rest float in the air, why not cubes of water?
00:22:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yellow text: "Thats not a moon!"
00:22:49 <Vorpal> and that yellow text is a misquoting I think
00:22:53 <elliott> Should be "That's no moon!" :|
00:23:00 <elliott> even i know that and i'm no star wars fan
00:23:00 <olsner> speaking of moons, apparently the earth has five of them
00:23:04 <elliott> maybe it's an elaborate troll
00:23:10 <elliott> olsner: your mom has a moon
00:23:56 <olsner> elliott: you could at least try to be funny...
00:24:51 <pikhq> *God* that's annoying. To indicate a stereo signal on NTSC-M, the mono signal has a 15.734 kHz tone added.
00:25:06 <olsner> well above my range of hearing!
00:25:37 <pikhq> I can hear up to 21 kHz...
00:25:47 <pikhq> And it's pretty damned annoying sometimes.
00:26:08 <olsner> and it's not filtered out by the receiver?
00:26:28 <pikhq> olsner: The mono signal is completely ignored *if* you have a stereo receiver.
00:26:31 * Sgeo hums a high-pitched sound at pikhq
00:26:39 <Sgeo> Made more horrifying by the fact that it's me
00:26:46 <pikhq> Some cheaper analog sets don't have one.
00:26:50 <olsner> oh great, so they made the mono annoying so that people would upgrade
00:27:03 <pikhq> My TV tuner card doesn't handle stereo, either.
00:27:09 <pikhq> However, I can fix that.
00:27:30 <pikhq> In my television profile in mplayer: af=sinesuppress=15734:0.001
00:27:45 <pikhq> Better living through software.
00:28:29 <Sgeo> I thought analog TV was dead
00:28:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not on cable.
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00:31:40 <olsner> and that's the last we heard of elliott
00:36:51 <Sasha> I never intentionally quit the IRC
00:37:43 <Sgeo> Have you ever intentionally quit the USENET?
00:40:17 <Sasha> I don't use USENET
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00:56:28 <Sgeo> The rant about filesystems is on Loper OS blog?
01:00:47 <Sgeo> http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/parphobia.png
01:03:57 <Sgeo> This is tempting me to learn Common Lisp
01:04:18 <Sgeo> elliott, see what you've done?!
01:17:47 <Sgeo> "Pick Scheme, and you have to pick a Scheme. Pick Common Lisp, and you have to pick a Common Lisp."
01:17:51 <Sgeo> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
01:18:03 <Sgeo> That's pretty much why I abandoned the whole thing last time, iirc
01:34:40 <Sgeo> elliott, link me to the rant
01:35:01 <Ilari> Warning: The more optimistic IPv4 depletion counter estimates IANA depletion at mid-March now... :-/
01:35:36 <Sgeo> "It rejects even what little consistency and intellectual rigor there is to be found in an abomination like Common Lisp."
01:35:42 <Ilari> http://inetcore.com/project/ipv4ec/en-us/index.html
01:35:45 <Sgeo> So... what Lisp does this person recommend?
01:36:35 <Sgeo> Ah, Symbolics Genera
01:37:06 <Ilari> That AFRINIC allocation and Sprint allocating equivalent of 5x/13 really threw their models...
01:39:04 <pikhq> (in the IANA pool)
01:39:12 <Ilari> AFAIK, still 6. But ARIN will grab two soon...
01:39:52 <pikhq> Ah, yeah. It'll be 4 once ARIN grabs that.
01:41:46 <pikhq> Hmm. RIR depletion could reasonably happen in 2011 at this rate.
01:42:26 <Ilari> 1.45 blocks have been burned in last 30 days...
01:42:49 <pikhq> ... Wow. The pace is accelerating.
01:43:22 <Ilari> It does vary quite a bit...
01:44:22 <pikhq> That's still a lot.
01:44:26 <Ilari> About 27.5 blocks are unallocated (not counting set-aside). At 1.45 blocks per month it would take about 19 months to allocate that (which would be in early 2012...).
01:44:55 <Ilari> Of course, there's no telling what happens after "X-day"
01:45:43 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure that the actual depletion would be inconsistent, what with the RIRs and all.
01:46:12 <pikhq> There will likely be a point where only Africa or some such can make new IPv4 allocations.
01:48:50 <Ilari> Also LACNIC (South America) is pretty slow in allocations...
01:49:44 <pikhq> But, then, it's also entirely plausible that those will go quickly, as some multinationals make allocations on the remaining RIRs.
01:50:03 <Ilari> Actually, this model estimates (if one turns off options that couple the RIRs) that LACNIC will deplete last.
01:51:05 <pikhq> Hmm... APNIC first, I'd guess.
01:51:12 <pikhq> Followed very shortly by RIPE and ARIN.
01:51:57 <Ilari> Actually, if one couples the RIRs, this model only gives the first depletion and the final depletion (ALL non-set-aside addresses depleted).
01:53:34 <Ilari> Because idea of "RIR coupling" is that once the regional RIR IPv4 department has closed shop, just start asking other RIRs...
01:55:10 <pikhq> Shit goes crazy on X-day.
02:00:27 <Ilari> Heh... IPv6 status (in /64s): IANA unallocated: 2 283 083 118 518 730 752 (99.0% free), RIR unallocated: 22 139 902 037 196 796 (97.3% free), delegated: 619 988 657 766 404.
02:01:06 <Ilari> s/delegated/allocated/
02:01:32 <pikhq> Estimated depletion date?
02:02:14 <Ilari> So IPv6 address space usage (w.r.t. total available address space): 0.027%
02:02:50 <pikhq> (In, oh, yottaseconds.)
02:03:37 <zzo38> I should intend that once I write TeXnicard, that it produces better quality cards than both Magic Set Editor and better than Wizards of the Coast does. (And then WotC should use this program, too, maybe?)
02:08:06 <Ilari> For some reason, Brazil has ridiculous amounts of IPv6 space allocated: About 45% of the allocated IPv6 space of the _entiere_ world, over 56 /48s per capita.
02:08:55 <pikhq> I hope that's just because Brazil is awesome.
02:09:15 <Sgeo> We're seriously going to see each and every IP address be allocated?
02:09:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: In a few months.
02:09:26 <Sgeo> There's going to be no before-the-last-minute rush to IPv6?
02:10:10 <Sgeo> Will this finally make mainstream media news?
02:10:24 <Ilari> In /48s per capita metric, Netherlands Antilles is even more ridiculous: Over 190 /48s per capita...
02:11:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Almost certainly.
02:11:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: "The Internet is full."
02:12:16 <Ilari> And then there is Nauru: Over 217 /48s per capita...
02:13:59 <Sgeo> What are all these IP addresses being used for, exactly?
02:14:29 <Sgeo> It occurs to be that the widescale NAT that people are talking about hasn't happened yet
02:14:32 * Sgeo facepalms self
02:14:38 <pikhq> The IPv4 addresses?
02:14:44 <zzo38> What does @\ mean in WEB?
02:14:53 <pikhq> All the several billion Internet devices.
02:15:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Even widescale NATing of people could not be done before X-day, yeah.
02:15:55 <pikhq> Basically what we're looking at is all of a sudden, everybody needs to be on IPv6 or else they can't access any new anything.
02:15:58 <Ilari> Oh, and there are 123 358 751 031 296 /64s advertized.
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02:18:37 <Ilari> Quite a bit more than there are total IPv4 addresses... And each of those about 123 trillon) is a /64...
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02:33:38 <Ilari> Hmmh... I think LTE should have been IPv6-only...
02:33:59 <Ilari> There is absolutely no way IPv4 addresses would suffice for that... Not even close.
02:34:11 <Sgeo> Cell-phone stuff
02:34:25 <Ilari> Long Term Evolution, The 3GPP's "4G" (LTE Advanced is true 4G stuff).
02:34:32 <pikhq> There's about a 0% chance of IPv4 being useful on it.
02:34:43 <pikhq> Or, indeed, usable by the time it becomes the norm.
02:35:05 <Sgeo> Does LTE have a v6 option?
02:35:11 <Ilari> You would have to do NAT anyway, and if one could do that, better to do NAT64 at the same time...
02:35:36 <Ilari> Better should have! I think it does...
02:35:47 <pikhq> If it doesn't then it needs junked.
02:36:44 <Ilari> Yes, LTE does support IPv6.
02:37:40 <Ilari> At least Verizon LTE network requirements have MANDAORY IPv6 and OPTIONAL IPv4.
02:38:22 <pikhq> "I'm not into child pornography, whatever you read about me in the coming months." — Glenn Beck
02:38:57 <pikhq> Meþinkſ't þe man doþ proteſt too much.
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02:39:27 <Ilari> Yes, it is apparently possible to meet the network requirements without any kind of IPv4 support at all.
02:43:54 <zzo38> TeXnicard includes a programming language somewhat like 'dc', but arithmetic if is used, and there are some other differences too.
02:44:58 <Ilari> Also, first time I have seen X-day estimates less than 100 days away from time of estimate...
02:45:07 <zzo38> What does "X-day" means?
02:46:18 <Ilari> IANA IPv4 pool exhausted.
02:47:08 <Ilari> That means RIR pools start their final depletion.
02:47:54 <pikhq> It's the day the shit hits the fan.
02:47:57 <Sgeo> When do RIR pools finally get depeleted?
02:48:07 <Sgeo> Surely that's the day the shit hits the fan?
02:48:31 <Ilari> RIR pool depletion also depends on how badly shit hits the fan before it...
02:49:00 <Ilari> There's also problem that space for larger allocations get exhausted first...
02:49:04 <pikhq> After X-day, it is *possible* that there will be a mad rush to get IPv4 addresses by people who are ignorant of how this works.
02:49:30 <pikhq> Also, yes, the end of large allocations will occur well before final RIR depletion.
02:50:25 <Sgeo> Why am I trying to sit on a woobly table?
02:50:55 * Sgeo pretends that this is a PERFECT metaphor for the IPv4 situation
02:51:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because the chair is also woobly chair, too.
02:51:33 <Sgeo> If I stop responding, it will because I fell and died
02:51:47 <Ilari> Uh oh: Projected RIR Unallocated Address Pool Exhaustion: 12-Dec-2011 ... That other model is more optimistic about X-day but less optimistic about final depletion...
02:52:25 <Sgeo> Weren't there estimates set in previous years?
02:54:24 <Ilari> I would rather check estimates that are very recent, not some made years ago... All of the estimates I have looking are recomputed daily...
02:54:58 <Ilari> This one is new enough to have IANA_POOL at 11 (6+5 blocks).
02:58:03 <Ilari> (AFAIK, IANA_POOL is currently at 11, until ARIN gets those blocks, and then it falls to 9).
03:00:31 <Sgeo> I'm saying that estimates years ago put X-day years ago
03:00:56 <Sgeo> Um, at least, going by the video that was shown on the estimator tool page
03:08:57 <zzo38> I have seen some things which are IPv6 only. The gopher server for CLC-INTERCAL is IPv6 only (although there is a proxy to access it with IPv4), and I think the ASCII Star Wars movie is color only when you connect with IPv6.
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03:10:37 <Sgeo> Why is there a CLC-INTERCAL gopher implementation/
03:10:51 <Sgeo> Is the ASCII Star Wars movie faithful to the original?
03:11:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do not know the answer to either question.
03:12:22 <Ilari> Anyway, looks like recent events have caused sharp changes in the estimates (as much as sudden ~ three months change)...
03:12:34 <evincar> Sgeo: Props for crafting such a good pair of incongruous questions, though.
03:13:02 <Sgeo> evincar, there is in fact a logical connection
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03:13:44 <evincar> Sgeo: Well, as long as we're arbitrarily asserting that we make sense, have a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XxDAm8skm0
03:14:03 * Sgeo picks TaxiiRide up from Starchild Numerology
03:14:07 <evincar> I'd been videoblogging, then I realised that I sucked, then I figured out why I sucked.
03:14:21 * Sgeo drops TaxiiRide off at Riverview Bridge
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03:29:01 <Sgeo> Should I attempt to learn a Lisp?
03:33:22 <Sgeo> I attempted Scheme once
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03:33:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll play with Common Lisp
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04:31:18 <zzo38> What is a C program supposed to do if you shift a signed number?
04:31:52 <pikhq> Launch ze missiles!
04:34:34 <pikhq> mu! (mu!)[mu!]{無}‹む›«ム»
04:42:18 <zzo38> Do you expect this to work? register_value v=stack_ptr[-3]; int n=v.number; n=-(n<0?2:!n); stack_ptr[-3]=stack_ptr[n]; stack_ptr[n]=v; stack_drop(); stack_drop(); stack_drop();
04:44:11 <zzo38> Would you like a printer supporting the Plan 9 protocol?
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05:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/file/3878344/ potentially fatal
05:57:42 <Sgeo> You might die laughing
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09:13:03 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): seems some of the yellow messages in minecraft are in Swedish :D
09:19:18 <fizzie> "Jag känner en bot!" is there. There's also "Une baguette!", which is non-english.
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09:20:24 <fizzie> The first one is more Memeish than Swedish, though.
09:21:24 <fizzie> There is also "Flaxkikare!" which sounds Swedishy.
09:24:59 <fizzie> Incidentally, there are the following special calendar-triggered yellow strings: "Happy birthday, ez!", "Happy birthday, Notch!", "Merry X-mas!" and "Happy new year!".
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09:25:58 <fizzie> And if you somehow manage to make the splash file disappear from the .jar, I think it will write "missingno" as the yellow text.
09:27:54 <fizzie> See: http://p.zem.fi/minecraft-title-class
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10:16:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "Jag känner en bot!" is there. There's also "Une baguette!", which is non-english. <-- and "Herregud!"
10:17:11 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There is also "Flaxkikare!" which sounds Swedishy. <-- sounds like possible slang to me. Or jargon. Swedish sounding yes but not a word I ever heard.
10:17:52 <fizzie> "Flaxkikaren är en apparat som i stort hjälper seriefiguren Bobo att överumpla alla sina fiender. Med bara ett par "skruv", samt ramsan Vrid ringarna mot max, så dom bildar ordet FLAX!, kan Bobo villig ett ögonblick gripa sig var som helst (inom kikarens synfält)."
10:17:57 <fizzie> So, a fictional thing, then.
10:19:23 <Vorpal> never heard about that comic figure
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10:40:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, wtf: a floating island *of sand*
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11:08:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's interesting. What happens if you remove a bottom block from it?
11:12:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, it starts falling all all the other blocks of it too
11:13:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, as a chain effect
11:13:24 <Vorpal> there was some dirt and a few sand blocks on the other side of that dirt too
11:13:36 <Vorpal> the sand that was "shielded" by the dirt didn't fall
11:13:42 <fizzie> The physics go all "hey, what are you doing up there in the sky?"
11:14:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen a lot of floating gravel in caverns with the post-halloween map generator.
11:14:25 <Vorpal> which acts the same way
11:15:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and the leaves of trees don't disappear for me when the wood does. I thought that was fixed?
11:16:29 <fizzie> I don't know, trees have been a bit wonky always. There are some multiplayer-only bugs there too, I think.
11:17:13 <fizzie> In any case I guess when they do disappear, they tend to do it a bit randomly.
11:17:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, left for 10 days (in game time)...
11:17:57 <fizzie> In the multiplayer game I tend to hack down the leaves too, since that will generate saplings, and then I can replant them.
11:18:16 <Vorpal> I left it as a cube of leaves in the air to make it easy to spot if it started going away
11:19:45 <fizzie> In earlier games, I've managed to lose a couple of mines.
11:20:02 <fizzie> Once used some of the cart-drawing tools to relocate my place.
11:21:32 <fizzie> There was this in a multiplayer game: http://zem.fi/~fis/mctree.png
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11:32:31 <Vorpal> yellow text "Don't look directly at the bugs!" XD
11:32:38 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading) ^
11:33:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I tend to hack them down as well, but it is annoying when there are some high ones you can't reach without building some temporary stairs or such
11:34:11 <Vorpal> those I want to go away automatically
11:34:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, also: uh, can you build above the clouds?
11:34:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, that screenshot looks like it
11:35:22 <Vorpal> <fizzie> In earlier games, I've managed to lose a couple of mines. <-- lose how?
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11:40:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, seems like reeds block fluids. And they are fireproof.
11:40:22 <Vorpal> you can walk through them
11:40:28 <Vorpal> hm this might be interesting
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12:28:46 <fizzie> Sure, you can go up something like ten blocks above the top of of the clouds.
12:29:32 <fizzie> And "lose" as in walk away, never finding my way back.
12:31:44 <fizzie> You can make reed-airlocks, I think; OTOH you can do the same with doors or ladders.
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12:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, Emacs has started inserting junk when I open files.
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12:55:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ">1;2403;0c" appears at the start of every file I open, for some reason.
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13:05:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's pretty bizarre
13:05:28 <ais523> you could check your .emacs for weirdnesses
13:19:35 <fizzie> It looks vaguely terminal-codeish.
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14:05:17 <ais523> hmm, Apple are busy confusing everyone by open-sourcing Java for OS X (which was previously Apple-proprietary)
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14:49:48 <ais523> hmm, http://returnvalues.useperl.at/ is a vaguely interesting site
14:50:15 <ais523> it enumerates unusual ways to write boolean true in Perl (modules have to return boolean true upon initialisation in order to avoid errors)
14:50:29 <ais523> and pretty much any string or number is true as a boolean (except '' and 0)
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15:04:58 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/file/3878344/ potentially fatal
15:05:00 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/#
15:05:05 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic
15:05:07 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> nostalgiacritic
15:05:41 <elliott> 17:34:40 <Sgeo> elliott, link me to the rant
15:05:46 <elliott> No, fuck you, find things for yourself for once.
15:05:56 <elliott> Also I never said to look at the Loper OS site, Phantom_Hoover did.
15:06:44 <elliott> 01:19:18 <fizzie> "Jag känner en bot!" is there. There's also "Une baguette!", which is non-english.
15:06:45 <elliott> 01:20:24 <fizzie> The first one is more Memeish than Swedish, though.
15:06:49 <elliott> Indeed; now that is in my head.
15:07:56 <elliott> 03:15:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and the leaves of trees don't disappear for me when the wood does. I thought that was fixed?
15:07:56 <elliott> 03:15:39 <Vorpal> err s/wood/logs/
15:07:59 <elliott> You mean when you punch them?
15:09:09 <elliott> ais523: well, technically, it lists all the ones used on CPAN
15:09:19 <elliott> well, boring ones filtered out
15:09:47 <elliott> ais523: for the record, that site (which I've seen before) is terribly formatted on a wide browser
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15:12:45 <elliott> ais523: 'end of WWW::Ohloh::API::Language'2WWW::Ohloh::API::Message
15:27:38 <Vorpal> elliott, they should when not supported by a tree
15:28:13 <Vorpal> <fizzie> And "lose" as in walk away, never finding my way back. <-- I mark my trail with torches when I explore
15:28:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, it's very useful IMO to carry around a few blocks of dirt to start off with, so you can elevate yourself to the top of a tree.
15:28:40 <Vorpal> elliott, nor for me. But they are supposed to, after a while.
15:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the next day most should be gone at least
15:29:08 <elliott> well i never stay in one place for that long :)
15:29:28 <Vorpal> elliott, some probably will start going away within a few minutes (real world time)
15:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, elevate to top of tree. Err why?
15:30:17 <elliott> Vorpal: To punch all of it.
15:30:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I suppose you could do it from below, but where's the fun in that?
15:30:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well depends on how high the tree is
15:30:35 <elliott> (Just realised you could do it from below :P)
15:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I generally farm them with a ceiling (note: make sure to add lots of light, otherwise the saplings won't grow).
15:31:22 <Vorpal> that way they will never be too tall to reach from ground
15:31:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I just use wild trees.
15:32:27 <Vorpal> elliott, not enough of them where my base is. Biomes near my base: desert, savanna, desert, plains, desert :P
15:32:58 <Vorpal> well, that is for the game I started with the new generator
15:33:34 <Vorpal> the older game (the one with all those weird blocks on the map) is somewhat better
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15:43:06 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: for the record, that site (which I've seen before) is terribly formatted on a wide browser <--- you'll hate what Wikia did with their skin, then
15:43:23 <ais523> the formatting change was so bad that there were huge protests, so they actually changed the ToU to prevent people changing the skin back
15:43:24 <elliott> ais523: Hell, I hated the *previous* skin.
15:43:33 <ais523> and as a result a whole load of wikis left in droves
15:43:39 <elliott> ais523: This one is too bad to even have a superlative to describe its badness with.
15:43:44 <ais523> the previous skin was a paragon of beauty compared to this one
15:43:51 <ais523> for bonus points, it's fixed-width
15:44:07 <ais523> at around 600 pixels for the content area
15:44:10 <elliott> ais523: I don't mind fixed-width text, as long as it's in ems.
15:44:23 <elliott> I can't tell whether this one is (my browser zooms everything no matter what).
15:44:49 <elliott> ais523: Incidentally, the *only* things I've heard about Wikia in years have been them being evil.
15:45:27 <elliott> ais523: First with Sgeo's Creatures Wiki -- they bought up creatureswiki.com and I think another TLD, redirected them to the wikia, and refused (!) to give them up to the admins. Then the skin change...
15:45:30 <ais523> indeed; they started out decent and got progressively more evil as time went on
15:45:43 <elliott> ais523: If "Creatures" and "wiki" weren't generic, they could be sued to hell and back.
15:45:51 <elliott> They probably still could with their obvious intent.
15:46:07 <ais523> nethack.wikia.com has departed to nethackwiki.com, now, skin changed to Vector
15:46:12 <ais523> and we're abandoning the old site
15:46:15 <ais523> (I mention this so Sgeo knows)
15:46:23 <elliott> ais523: He's an admin on the new one for whatever reason.
15:46:36 <ais523> elliott: they copied the user DB and password hash DB over
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15:46:39 <elliott> ais523: And every wiki I've seen that's left -- including ones way before this -- have had their leaving covered up and Wikia trying to keep contributors coming to theirs.
15:46:56 <ais523> (I'm a little concerned that wikia even leaves password hash DBs open, even if they're properly hashed and salted...)
15:47:27 <elliott> ais523: The Creatures Wiki were going to put the notice in their sitenotice, but then Wikia disabled editing sitenotices, so they can't do that now.
15:47:45 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if that's why they disabled sitenotices?
15:47:55 <ais523> I thought it was by accident, originally, at least that's what they said it was
15:48:39 <elliott> "We are switching over all the default skins (for anon users) to our new skin "Monaco" this week." -- latest thread on Creatures Wiki's main page talk, April 2008
15:48:56 <elliott> ais523: WoWWiki have already moved, and that's gotta be like 95% of Wikia's traffic right there.
15:49:08 <elliott> ais523: Wait, they haven't moved quite yet.
15:49:15 <ais523> elliott: over 10%, apparently
15:49:23 <ais523> and they're in the process of moving
15:49:36 <ais523> also, Monaco >>> Oasis
15:49:44 <elliott> ais523: Indeed. Still pretty bad though.
15:49:55 <ais523> I could tolerate Monaco with AdBlock on and turned to maximum (Wikia has some of the most obnoxious ads I've ever seen)
15:50:12 <ais523> for bonus points, Oasis apparently causes health problems
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15:50:29 <ais523> certain sorts of asymmetric patterns can cause eyestrain in various people, leading to headaches
15:50:36 <elliott> ais523: I'm a member of a small wiki (two hundred pages or so) that Angela actually *made a personal message* to, asking us if we'd like to move to Wikia, in 2007 or 2008, and actually replied to it when everyone was like "No thanks this is fine".
15:50:41 <elliott> Good thing that never happened.
15:51:08 <elliott> Hmm, actually, closer to a thousand articles now.
15:51:23 <ais523> elliott: I'm not convinced Wikia was evil in 2007
15:51:31 <elliott> ais523: It was February 2008. Just checked.
15:51:32 <ais523> it's just evilised over time
15:51:38 <elliott> ais523: So only a few months from Monaco.
15:52:04 <elliott> ais523: apparently it's because they were launching a Network(TM) for sites of general topic similar to $general_topic_of_this_one
15:52:31 <elliott> ais523: wow, and then came back to ask again in September 2009!
15:53:54 <ais523> does your small wiki in question have ads?
15:54:06 <ais523> that's enough reason to not move to Wikia, I think, if you don't
15:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> No way that you could have a company run by an objectivist be nice!
15:56:45 <elliott> ais523: it also has a decent sysop :P
15:57:28 <elliott> ais523: "WYWIWYG" --Angela, before fixing it immediately after
15:57:39 <elliott> now to twist that typo into an anti-wikia acronym
15:57:58 <elliott> Wikia: Yes, We'll Integrate Wikis Y? G?
15:57:58 <ais523> "what you want is what you get" is the obvious reading to me, which is more or less the opposite of Wikia nowadays
15:59:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I don't even remember "Quartz"
15:59:51 <elliott> clearly, it was so horrible that no wiki didn't switch to monobook
16:01:17 <ais523> meanwhile, YouTube has been throwing up weirder and weirder errors as time goes on
16:01:35 <ais523> <YouTube> 500 Internal Server Error Sorry, something went wrong. A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation. If you see them, show them this information:
16:01:37 <elliott> ais523: wrt the eye strain: wikia banned an optometrist for stating that
16:01:43 <ais523> followed by a huge block of base64
16:01:50 <elliott> <ais523> followed by a huge block of base64
16:02:00 <elliott> I figure it's all the CGI-ish parameters, and the like
16:02:02 <ais523> presumably it's a Google error rather than YouTube error, then
16:02:18 <elliott> I think "highly trained monkeys" is YouTube.
16:02:26 <elliott> With Google I think it links you to a support team where you can report a problem and include that.
16:02:36 <ais523> I've seen something like 10 different failure modes from YouTube over the last month or so
16:04:43 <elliott> ais523: I'd like a userscript of some sort that turns all YouTube links into a centred-vertically-and-horizontally HTML 5 version of the video on the highest quality setting and strips away everything else.
16:04:51 <elliott> The Flash player is terrible, the comments are beyond inane, everything else is fluff.
16:05:11 <elliott> quietube comes close but doesn't do the HTML5.
16:11:54 <elliott> 17:35:01 <Ilari> Warning: The more optimistic IPv4 depletion counter estimates IANA depletion at mid-March now... :-/
16:13:57 <ais523> I'm interested in what will happen when IPv4 runs out
16:14:23 <ais523> also, there are sane YouTube commentors, who often manage to parody the stupid ones
16:14:36 <ais523> I saw one where the author of a video managed to reverse a likely comment before it even came up, which was hilarious
16:14:46 <elliott> ais523: Current predictions are: chaos. Even though the RIRs and whatnot still have to get exhausted, the models predict that in a year or two at most...
16:14:58 <elliott> ais523: Nobody's exactly scrambling to upgrade their infrastructure to be IPv6 ready.
16:15:24 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if it'll be harmful chaos or interesting chaos
16:15:32 <ais523> I'm hoping for the second
16:15:37 <elliott> ais523: I would predict some economic effects outside the Internet ("We can't add another machine." "Why not?" "We don't have a number to give it.").
16:15:46 <elliott> ais523: But not *too* many as there'll be a lot of NATting anyway. Still...
16:16:19 <elliott> ais523: Mainstream news coverage is likely to be very distorted ("We're out of Internet! Providers are scrambling to switch to the NEW Internet, with more space! BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THAT RUNS TRY? Let's go over to our reporter, a homeless bum we found five minutes ago screaming 'Eyepee veesix'.")
16:16:39 <elliott> ais523: And netizens are likely to scramble to the nearest rescue boat^W^WIPv6 provider.
16:22:27 <elliott> 19:08:57 <zzo38> I have seen some things which are IPv6 only. The gopher server for CLC-INTERCAL is IPv6 only (although there is a proxy to access it with IPv4), and I think the ASCII Star Wars movie is color only when you connect with IPv6.
16:22:27 <elliott> 19:10:37 <Sgeo> Why is there a CLC-INTERCAL gopher implementation/
16:22:38 <elliott> ais523: Please explain the situation to Sgeo.
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16:49:46 <elliott> asiekierka: If you don't point me to a mouse with three actual buttons *and* a scroll wheel I'll do something terrible.
16:50:29 <elliott> http://h30094.www3.hp.com/product.asp?sku=2545791 "Great, now where is the scroll wheel?"
16:52:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: In the multiplayer game of ours, there's a largeish common mine; at the bottom, pretty near the bedrock (five blocks or so up) there's one piece of dirt, and then a maybe 6x6 rectangular shaft all the way up to the top of the map, and a glass ceiling; and on that one block of dirt a largeish tree grows.
16:53:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess the reason is simply "because it is cool"?
16:54:31 <Vorpal> elliott, my mouse has 3 buttons and a scrollwheel
16:54:47 <fizzie> I've torch-marked the way to the habited regions from the spawn-point of that game, too; got tired of having to deduce it, even though it isn't far.
16:54:48 <Vorpal> a tiltable scrollwheel even
16:55:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does it work in multiplayer with regards to inventory when connecting?
16:55:43 <Vorpal> do you keep it from last time or?
16:56:25 <fizzie> It's kept, yes. I don't know whether it's saved client-side or server-side; maybe server.
16:56:56 <fizzie> Funny thing: server doesn't track the "health" of objects either, so if you drop your diamond pick and re-pick it up, the 'durability' thing will be reset. So you can use it indefinitely.
16:57:19 <fizzie> Hm, can't connect to minecraft.net at the moment.
16:59:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, is there any multiplayer server that is good for someone who never did multiplayer in minecraft before? Free to build what you want, and not some special-generated game map style.
17:00:04 <fizzie> I don't really know: I haven't played on anything else than our private thing.
17:01:23 <fizzie> Well, it's named after an office room of the CS building at the university. I guess there's just me and sometimes ineiros there. I have heard rumours of a third guy, who supposedly built a thing, but I don't know who he/she would be.
17:02:20 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, my mouse has 3 buttons and a scrollwheel
17:03:00 <fizzie> "In rare occasions, most likely due to glitches, nether biomes can be found in the normal world. " Heh, that sounds pretty strange. (Haven't had it happen.)
17:03:31 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, they appear as huge blocks, because of the walls and ceiling.
17:03:55 <Gregor> "Most likely due to glitches" is such a meaningless reason :P
17:03:59 <elliott> Vorpal: (I thought you meant a TrackPoint.)
17:04:12 <Vorpal> elliott, on the bottom of the mouse it says "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000 v1.0"
17:04:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Scroll wheels do *not* count as third buttons.
17:04:57 <Gregor> Dood, the v1.1s are SO much better.
17:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no, it has a button on the side
17:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, of course the scrollwheel is clickable as well
17:05:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I realise that. EVERY mouse has that.
17:05:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a third button obviously
17:05:40 <elliott> Vorpal: *It is not what I want.*
17:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it you want then
17:06:00 <Vorpal> if not a mouse with 3 button + scrollwheel that is tiltable and clickable?
17:06:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Three actual buttons and the scroll wheel jammed in 4D space or wherever; I won't specify further than that because other people can design mice better than me.
17:06:24 <elliott> Gregor: I use the middle button extensively, and always have three fingers on the mouse, one for each button. With a scroll wheel, my middle finger is elevated, which is very uncomfortable, and furthermore, the button is harder to click than the other two.
17:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. So placing that extra button on the side under the thumb doesn't count?
17:06:36 <elliott> (It is even more uncomfortable when I scroll with my middle finger but keep the other fingers down.)
17:06:37 <Vorpal> which is what mine has
17:06:47 <fizzie> elliott: You can buy this thing, which has three actual buttons and *two* scroll wheels, but they're in the side: http://ergo.contourdesign.com/uploads/images/products/large/Black%20CMO%20front%20angle.jpg
17:07:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably not. I would be willing to consider it if the mouse is very well-designed.
17:07:01 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Dood, the v1.1s are SO much better. <-- what XD
17:07:08 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, seem that. No thanks :P
17:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, no one else hold a mouse like that :P
17:07:24 <elliott> fizzie: http://trendsupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/OpenOffice_Mouse.jpg
17:07:25 <Vorpal> two fingers then move one to scroll wheel as needed
17:07:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, I do the three-finger thing too.
17:07:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It is the standard Unix mouse grip. Of course, that is now extinct.
17:07:51 <elliott> Thanks to Windows and, well, X11 WIMP UIs.
17:08:05 <elliott> (The Macintosh isn't to blame as it had one button at the time.)
17:08:16 <Gregor> elliott: Of course, the equivalent Microsoft Office mouse would have no buttons on top, and a slideout panel with dozens of buttons with obscure labels.
17:08:22 <Vorpal> elliott, http://trendsupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/OpenOffice_Mouse.jpg <-- two wtf: 1) the product 2) the name
17:08:27 <Vorpal> it must be photoshopped
17:08:49 <elliott> Vorpal: It's now the WarMouse Meta since OpenOffice complained that it isn't approved.
17:08:51 <Gregor> Vorpal: You suck at getting jokes more than usual today :P
17:09:09 <elliott> Vorpal: It was designed to be useful with word processors apparently. They now market it as a gaming mouse.
17:09:09 <Gregor> elliott: ...?!?!?!?!?!
17:09:12 <elliott> Never have to move to the toolbar, etc.
17:09:14 <elliott> Gregor: http://warmouse.com/
17:09:27 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.boingboing.net/images/oomousep3.jpg
17:09:47 <Vorpal> how do you actually hit those buttons reliably?
17:09:51 <elliott> Gregor: It is a great unintentional joke at OpenOffice's expense, though :P
17:09:53 <fizzie> elliott: You must get this mouse, it's so "you": http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/75555_01.jpg
17:09:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Genetic deformities.
17:10:00 <elliott> Vorpal: 12 fingers is preferable.
17:10:11 <elliott> Vorpal: (In-breeding may be required.)
17:10:13 <Vorpal> elliott, small ones (unless the mouse is HUGE)
17:10:23 <elliott> fizzie: ...what, exactly, is so "me" about that? :-P
17:10:40 <fizzie> elliott: Well, you know, you're obviously such a World of Warcraft guy!
17:10:53 <elliott> Oxford, England, June 28, 2010 - WarMouse today announced that its much-anticipated multi-button laser joystick mouse is now shipping. With a patented design featuring 18 buttons, an analog joystick, and a 5600-CPI laser sensor, the Meta has been well received by gamers and commercial software developers alike. Containing twice as much memory as the original Macintosh, the WarMouse(R) Meta holds 3,072 commands in 64 mouse modes, allowing the mous
17:10:53 <elliott> e to completely change its functionality on the fly according to the active application.
17:11:00 <elliott> Why are these people in Oxford?
17:11:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, that mouse looks uncomfortable
17:11:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: But it has rune buttons.
17:11:13 * Gregor wonders when Blizzard is going to sue Minecraft for having a name ending in "craft"
17:11:15 <elliott> Did they flunk Mouse Design and not bother to relocate?
17:11:31 <elliott> I love how there's 64 mouse modes.
17:11:41 <elliott> "Hands-on reviews of the mouse from various technology sites have been uniformly positive:"
17:11:42 <Vorpal> elliott, also why does it need to be in the mouse
17:11:49 <Vorpal> surely it is better done in software on the computer
17:12:04 <elliott> I refuse to believe their excerpt of http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/03/warmouse-meta-review/ is representative.
17:12:08 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that's WarMouse too.
17:12:20 <elliott> Or maybe it's just a comparison shot.
17:12:46 <elliott> [[# "There's no doubt that the $79.99 Meta with its 512K of memory is the most advanced mouse we've ever seen - each of its 18 buttons along with their double-click functions can be configured for different applications, and its analog joystick can be customized to perform eight different commands.... The WarMouse Meta goes where no mouse has gone before." - Engadget]]
17:13:18 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/97047_01.jpg -- it has "Onboard Memory 64Kb", because that's obviously the main criterion when choosing a mouse. You don't want your mouse to run out of memory.
17:13:26 <elliott> "The WarMouse Meta goes where no mouse has gone before. However, at the end of the day we can't help but wonder who could possibly remember how to use so many buttons on a single gadget."
17:13:39 <fizzie> Also "5600DPI twin laser" and "rapid fire mode".
17:13:40 <elliott> fizzie: You could make the display print out the memory.
17:13:45 <Gregor> I don't remember how to use all the keys on my keyboard.
17:13:47 <elliott> fizzie: Or run a shell on it.
17:14:04 <fizzie> You can independently configure the resolution on the X and Y axes, too.
17:14:23 <elliott> Now point me to a mouse with three buttons.
17:15:02 <fizzie> There's that one Razer mouse which has a numpad in the side, too.
17:15:05 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/94345_01.jpg
17:15:26 <fizzie> (The "Razer Naga MMOG Mouse".)
17:17:05 <Vorpal> why do they do the shortcuts in the mouse
17:17:07 <fizzie> elliott: No, no, actually, get this! http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/85/2_118146-450x450.jpeg -- it's obviously made for cyborgs like you, that can reconfigure their hand.
17:17:14 <Vorpal> surely doing it on the computer is better
17:17:26 <Vorpal> could be mapped in the input layer of any sane system.
17:17:38 <Vorpal> I'm sure evdev could do anything that it could and more
17:18:04 <Vorpal> if not, it shouldn't be hard to get it to work some other way
17:18:18 <fizzie> I can't make heads or tails out of that last one.
17:18:33 <elliott> Vorpal: They're for Windows and you know it and you're just trolling.
17:18:43 <elliott> Razer mice are... usually a bit saner than that.
17:18:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the official product image at a web-store, I wouldn't think so.
17:18:51 <Vorpal> elliott, would it be hard to do it on the computer for windows?
17:18:56 <fizzie> elliott: It's actually "Saitek Cyborg R.A.T 7", but still.
17:19:09 <elliott> They're even advertising a similar model on the homepage: http://www.razerzone.com/
17:19:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, saitek is usually saner than that
17:19:14 <elliott> fizzie: I meant the mousepad one.
17:19:21 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, okay. Right.
17:19:23 <elliott> I guess Vorpal meant the other one.
17:19:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the one fizzie linked
17:19:43 <fizzie> I guess it could be they're showing the R.A.T in its opened-up configuration, and those things are for adjusting the weights or such.
17:19:51 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: No, no, actually, get this! http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/85/2_118146-450x450.jpeg -- it's obviously made for cyborgs like you, that can reconfigure their hand.
17:19:58 <elliott> fizzie: Most likely, but I'd prefer not to think that :)
17:20:21 <elliott> Yet still nobody has linked me to a three-button mouse with a scroll wheel except Vorpal, whose entry is questionable.
17:20:38 <Vorpal> elliott, why is my entry questionable?
17:20:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the third button is on the thumb. I'll still consider it, but I'm skeptical.
17:21:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It still doesn't let me have my three-finger hold comfortably, due to the elevated scroll wheel.
17:21:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you want the scrollwheel under the thumb or such instead?
17:22:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, if you want a scrollwheel you have to put it somewhere :P
17:22:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is a decision I will leave to the designers of these mice, who are probably better at thinking of things like that and I.
17:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, btw my mouse is very comfortable. The first one of that model that I bought lasted about 5 years or so. The replacement I bought was the same model. Because the mouse is awesome.
17:23:17 <Vorpal> and 5 years is more than any other mouse I had lasted
17:23:21 <fizzie> elliott: There's another "vertical mouse" that I guess has a layout a bit like you want, except it's turned all sideways: http://www.evoluent.com/vm3_med.jpg
17:23:50 <fizzie> That's like three buttons with a scroll wheel between 1/2, and one extra buttony-looking thing "below" 3, and then the whole thing has been tilted sideways.
17:24:03 <elliott> fizzie: I know of that one.
17:24:09 <elliott> I am not convinced it would be comfortable to scroll with.
17:24:16 <elliott> Especially that topmost button.
17:24:36 <fizzie> There's one more button behind it. But yes, it does look a bit suspicious.
17:24:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, if that was a boat, there would be lifeboats leaving it now XD
17:25:21 <Gregor> I have a friend who swears by the Evoluent mouse.
17:25:22 <elliott> "The goal of the GNU PDF project is to develop and provide a free, high-quality, complete, and portable set of libraries and programs to manage the PDF file format (ISO 32000), and associated technologies."
17:25:31 <Gregor> Then again, he's German, so y'know, don't trust him :P
17:25:32 <elliott> I like how they completely ignore poppler.
17:25:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what license does poppler have?
17:25:48 <elliott> Gregor: Bah! Ergonomics can go fuck itself.
17:26:07 <elliott> Vorpal: But it can't write PDFs.
17:26:16 <Vorpal> elliott, eh. What about pdftex?
17:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and cups? and so on?
17:26:46 <elliott> Vorpal: manually or via postscript, I would guess.
17:26:58 <elliott> "Skype is seducing free software users into using proprietary software, often two users at a time."
17:27:15 <fizzie> elliott: I take back my "numpad in a mouse" comment earlier, because some company called Sandberg makes an *actual* numbad that is also a mouse: http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/77747_01.jpg
17:27:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well, via postscript or manually are the sane ways afaik. pdf is not very editable.
17:27:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus why they want a library.
17:27:44 <elliott> fizzie: Hardest thing to use as a mouse ever :P
17:27:46 <Vorpal> elliott, right. So base it off cups code?
17:28:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I imagine CUPS code is very ugly.
17:28:05 <fizzie> elliott: It even has an "Excel" button.
17:28:13 <elliott> "GNU General Public License, GNU Lesser General Public License, with proprietary exceptions for software that links against CUPS to run on Apple operating systems"
17:28:20 <Gregor> elliott: It's everything an accountant needs in one box :P
17:28:25 <elliott> Vorpal: CUPS' license sure is nice.
17:28:36 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: It even has an "Excel" button. <-- where?
17:28:38 <elliott> Gregor: Anything that makes accountants' lives harder is good enough for me!
17:28:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/77747_01.jpg
17:28:53 <Vorpal> elliott, missed it first time around
17:28:53 <elliott> "CUPS is the standards-based, open source printing system developed by Apple Inc. for Mac OS® X and other UNIX®-like operating systems."
17:29:10 <fizzie> I think there's some sort of mode-selector in the side for numpadness/mouseness.
17:29:22 <Gregor> elliott: Easy, just avoid printing :P
17:29:41 <elliott> Gregor: I do that already, I don't believe in paper. But I would like a nice black-and-white laser one to use for reading papers...
17:29:54 <Vorpal> elliott, well, apple bought the original company that produced it iirc
17:30:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah. And the source code.
17:30:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the license though?
17:30:36 <elliott> "In February 2007, Apple Inc. hired chief developer Michael Sweet and purchased the CUPS source code."
17:30:40 <elliott> Vorpal: "GNU General Public License, GNU Lesser General Public License, with proprietary exceptions for software that links against CUPS to run on Apple operating systems"
17:30:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is just beyond terrible.
17:30:57 <elliott> [[CUPSTM is provided under the GNU General Public License ("GPL") and GNU Library General Public License ("LGPL"), Version 2, with exceptions for Apple operating systems and the OpenSSL toolkit. A copy of the exceptions and licenses follow this introduction.]]
17:31:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Exception for OpenSSL too! Fuck that.
17:31:21 * elliott wonders if anything else can print on a Linux system :-P
17:31:33 <elliott> (Things I don't need, hypothetically: A web interface.)
17:31:45 <elliott> Or hell, a queue. A printer queue is a shell script.
17:31:46 <Vorpal> the old line printer stuff
17:32:09 * Gregor wonders why Apple chose to release that under GPL ... they hate GPL so much ...
17:32:22 <elliott> Vorpal: But yes, I suppose Linux probably does still support lp, at least until they decide it's not modern enough.
17:32:26 <elliott> Then we all get to use CUPS!
17:32:30 <elliott> Gregor: Because it was already GPL.
17:32:37 <elliott> Gregor: It's not Apple code originally.
17:32:53 <Gregor> It's not? Then how did they get the exceptions in for linking against Apple ...
17:32:57 <elliott> Gregor: And I doubt the lead developer would have joined Apple to work on it if they said "and change the license, too".
17:33:09 <elliott> Gregor: I imagine they rather wanted probably the only person who knew the codebase intimately.
17:33:23 <elliott> lp: Error - no default destination available.
17:33:44 <fizzie> $ dpkg-query -S `which lp`
17:33:44 <fizzie> cups-client: /usr/bin/lp
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17:34:01 <elliott> Well, I'm sure I'd get /dev/lp0 if I plugged a printer in. Right? Haha, unlikely, I'll bet.
17:34:18 <elliott> And then I could TALK TO IT! Manually!
17:34:22 <Gregor> elliott: Idonno, looks like Apple purchased the source code, and they're nothing if not douchebags, so it's surprising they didn't relicense it.
17:34:36 <elliott> Gregor: 'cuz they hired the lead developer.
17:34:44 <elliott> Gregor: Who licensed it under the GPL. Presumably on purpose.
17:34:57 <fizzie> elliott: "aptitude install lpr" will probably get you the old spooling system, then you can plug in external programs as drivers into printcap.
17:35:06 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I see that, but that still seems surprisingly lacking in douchebaggery for Apple ...
17:35:11 <elliott> Gregor: "Hi, we want to buy your code and hire you to work on it." vs "Hi, we want to buy your code, completely relicense it, and then hire you to work on it so we can release it with a license you don't want."
17:35:23 <fizzie> (Alternatively, "lprng" for what I think used to be the de-facto default before CUPS.)
17:35:24 <elliott> Gregor: Note: Apple weren't nearly as douchebaggy until recently.
17:35:24 <Sgeo> You are tearing me apart, elliott
17:35:44 <elliott> LPRng is a printing system compatible with the Berkeley printing system. It provides printer spooling and network print server functionality using the Line Printer Daemon protocol.
17:35:44 <elliott> It is an open-source project hosted on SourceForge and implemented by many open-source Unix-like operating systems. LPRng was abandoned by its author in early 2005, then picked back up by new developers in October 2006.[1] A new release was made available in December 2006 [2] (LPRng-3.8.29 RC 1).
17:35:58 <elliott> fizzie: What if I want SysV lp? :-P
17:36:13 <elliott> fizzie: Didn't they release the SysV code?
17:36:19 <elliott> Not that SysV was any good.
17:36:28 <elliott> lpr appears to be the BSD one, indeed.
17:36:28 <Sgeo> elliott, watch The Room
17:36:53 <elliott> This is the BSD printer spooler and associated utilities. You can use this for
17:36:53 <elliott> local and remote printers.
17:37:04 <elliott> # lp -- the user command to print
17:37:04 <elliott> # lpstat -- shows the current print queue
17:37:04 <elliott> # cancel -- deletes a job from the print queue
17:37:15 <elliott> It takes System V to create commands for what are literally filesystem operations.
17:37:45 <Gregor> You mean commands like "rm" and "touch"? :P
17:37:56 <elliott> Gregor: I mean duplicates. :P
17:38:19 <Gregor> By making them commands, they can potentially (not actually) change how things are stored *shrugs*
17:38:27 <elliott> Gregor: The filesystem is an abstract interface.
17:38:32 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know if anyone's packaged it; all Linux systems (in the pre-CUPS era, anyway) I met used BSD lpr-derived things.
17:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: That's like saying "Well, yeah, but they could change their public API!"
17:38:46 <elliott> Gregor: Filesystem hierarchy != literal directory structure, as was the original intention of Unix, as is implemented in Plan 9 :-P
17:38:56 <elliott> lp: $ cat my-foo.ps >/dev/printer0/new
17:39:01 <elliott> lpstat: $ ls /dev/printer0
17:39:10 <elliott> cancel: $ rm /dev/printer0/N
17:39:17 <Gregor> elliott: So, you're not happy that SysV wasn't Plan 9?
17:40:09 <elliott> Gregor: Well, you *do* wear clashing colours on purpose, so it's possible you just have terrible taste overall :P
17:41:38 <elliott> Jimbo: Just because you've made a new photo doesn't mean I'm going to fucking give you any money.
17:41:50 <elliott> "Please read this appeal from our founder and then donate to Wikimedia UK using the form opposite."
17:42:03 <fizzie> elliott: Can you look him at his soulful eyes and not give him any money!
17:42:04 <elliott> "Please scroll down to the bottom of the page, and then scroll up, because why should spatial order reflect reading order???"
17:42:25 <elliott> fizzie: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070105052649/wikiality/images/d/d8/Captain_Jimbo_on_the_SS_Glamour_Photography.jpg
17:42:40 <elliott> fizzie: They should put that on the donation banners.
17:43:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070105052649/wikiality/images/d/d8/Captain_Jimbo_on_the_SS_Glamour_Photography.jpg <-- photoshopped or?
17:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, different Jimbo then?
17:43:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Before starting Wikipedia, Jimbo founded Bomis, a dot-com.
17:44:00 <elliott> Vorpal: [[The rings are currently categorized broadly as "Babe", "Entertainment", "Sports", "Adult", "Science fiction", and "Other".[2] The "Adult", "Babe", and "Entertainment" categories are the most frequently updated and the most popular.]]
17:44:13 <elliott> Vorpal: So, uh, he basically ran a softcore pornish portal.
17:44:19 <elliott> Thus http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070105052649/wikiality/images/d/d8/Captain_Jimbo_on_the_SS_Glamour_Photography.jpg
17:44:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Which was advertising or, uh, god knows what.
17:44:43 <elliott> [[Bomis is best known for having supported the creation of the free-content online encyclopedia projects Nupedia and Wikipedia. Bomis hosted Nupedia in 2000, and Larry Sanger was hired to manage and edit that project. A year into the development of Nupedia, Bomis decided the project was too expensive[citation needed], and a so called "wiki" was set up as a way to solicit low-cost new drafts for Nupedia.]]
17:44:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Wikipedia: Because it's cheaper.
17:45:06 <elliott> So much for a philanthropic desire to spread global knowledge :P
17:47:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Have any of WP's detractors ever actually made a site that addresses their criticisms of it?
17:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Citizendium is the closest, and we all know what happened there...
17:48:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "You don't like it, make something better!" is a phrase common among complete morons.
17:48:19 <elliott> Has Roger Ebert ever made a movie?
17:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> When "something better" has _manifestly_ never been created, it throws some doubt on their claims.
17:49:40 <elliott> "Wikipedia sucks!" does not mean "Wikipedia sucks, and we could easily fix it!".
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17:49:54 <elliott> You have a very strange view of criticism in general.
17:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, saying "X sucks and there's nothing that can be done about it" is completely unhelpful.
17:50:12 <elliott> Vorpal: http://xiatek.org/?p=139
17:50:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "X sucks and I don't know what to do about it".
17:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Better, if you're actually trying to think of things to do about it.
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17:51:21 <fizzie> elliott: Switch to a different display server! (Eh, eh, eh.)
17:51:32 <elliott> fizzie: I considered making that joke.
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17:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Now to try and make a world with seed 0 :P
17:54:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well I won't use that thing
17:54:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, you have to download it and say "mono foo.exe".
17:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm more interested in built up worlds.
17:54:53 <elliott> Vorpal: The point is that it's like a screenshot except you can move around it...
17:54:58 <elliott> Vorpal: You're meant to copy real seeds from actual worlds.
17:55:13 <fizzie> elliott: Also you have to "Click several buttons and then tick a checkbox", that's pretty bothersome.
17:55:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e., see something interesting, share a 50-byte seed rather than a big png, and let other people see it and move around it too.
17:55:18 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. But doesn't help when you want to show off your minecart system
17:56:09 <fizzie> Let's all just speak in abbreviations from now on. Uh, I mean, LAJSIAFNO.
17:57:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, ITIAGIIT, THCBSA
17:57:23 <elliott> fizzie: lawl, it doesn't see dotfiles
17:57:31 * elliott wonders how to tell it where ~/.minecraft is
17:57:59 <elliott> Vorpal: winforms; sudo aptitude install libmono-winforms2.0-cli
17:58:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, you have to download it and say "mono foo.exe". <-- also need to install mono then
17:58:17 <elliott> Vorpal: If you use GNOME, you already have Mono.
17:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, no. I have gnome and not mono.
17:59:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't install the parts that depend on mono
17:59:10 <elliott> Vorpal: No you don't. You have part of GNOME.
17:59:11 <Vorpal> which is iirc some search thingy
17:59:18 <elliott> Multiple components depend on it.
17:59:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, welcome to Zealotville, Population: You.
17:59:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I actually install the parts I want
17:59:40 <elliott> Vorpal: At least you won't be sued because of PATENTS!
17:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, when I used KDE I never installed the full thing either
17:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not the reason though
18:00:15 <Vorpal> the reason is simply I only install what I want. Not the whole meta-package
18:00:24 <Vorpal> I think I'm missing some of the gnome games too for example
18:00:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ubuntu's Hugin package depends on "autopano-sift-c | autopano-sift", and there is no autopano-sift-c package available by default, so it goes to autopano-sift, which depends on mono-runtime; that's one way it has gotten installed here.
18:00:57 <elliott> Hopefully you have Quadrapassel.
18:01:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use autopano-sift-c I know...
18:01:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, but then I use hugin in ~/local/panorama
18:01:25 <Vorpal> because I want the last version
18:01:30 <Vorpal> and I want different compile time options
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18:01:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, and well it doesn't apply on my desktop. Which is arch.
18:03:31 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/qpefs.png
18:03:32 <fizzie> I think in the previous Debian installation I had autopano-sift-c from somewhere.
18:03:40 <fizzie> ... apparently from the debian-multimedia repo.
18:05:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Hopefully you have Quadrapassel. <-- what is it?
18:05:11 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://i.imgur.com/qpefs.png.
18:05:32 <elliott> Vorpal: (That's my screenshot.)
18:05:51 <elliott> One more damn second and I'd have done it!
18:05:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you say "Hopefully you have Quadrapassel."
18:06:05 <elliott> because who can live without tetris?
18:06:08 <Vorpal> as opposed to for example: hopefully you have the gnome minesweeper clone
18:06:26 <Vorpal> elliott, me, I never play it, but it is in the same package as the mine sweeper on arch I think
18:06:29 <elliott> They need a Win95 screen for it.
18:09:42 -!- elliott has left (?).
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18:13:34 <elliott> Vorpal: So, anyway, I've given up on Genera in Ubuntu 10.10, I think.
18:13:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Also transplantation of an older X. I could put my network driver on an Ubuntu 7.10 install CD, but I doubt I could get it working.
18:15:14 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm. Just manually compile a new kernel?
18:15:27 <Vorpal> though, who knows what it would do with mode switching
18:15:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, I think a driver actually existed earlier than distros included it.
18:16:08 <elliott> Never mind, that's irrelevant.
18:16:09 <Vorpal> elliott, is it for wlan?
18:16:22 <elliott> 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications AR8132 Fast Ethernet (rev c0)
18:16:22 <elliott> 08:00.0 Network controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8191SEvB Wireless LAN Controller (rev 10)
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18:16:39 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't know how supported the latter is, but the former is supported only in recent stuff.
18:16:46 <elliott> Ubuntu 10.04 onwards, for instance.
18:17:08 <elliott> Vorpal: WLAN works in Ubuntu 9.10 and possibly before. LAN works in Ubuntu 9.04 onwards.
18:17:18 <elliott> Vorpal: (I didn't realise LAN was unsupported until I started plugging it in.)
18:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I suppose WLAN might conceivably work in 7.10, but the installer sure doesn't do WiFi.
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18:17:41 <elliott> (debian-installer, that is. At least circa late 2007.)
18:19:23 <Vorpal> elliott, and I very much doubt the alternate install (which you need, shadow passwords do not work, remember?) will support wifi
18:19:39 <elliott> Vorpal: The alternate installer is debian-installer.
18:19:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course, I theoretically don't need network in the install...
18:19:54 <elliott> Vorpal: (But for some reason the alternate installer wanted to get net connected???)
18:20:08 <elliott> Surely the packages are *on disk*.
18:20:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Although in that case I had copied over a netinstall USB and then put the ISO on like it told me to.
18:20:27 <elliott> Vorpal: It could, conceivably, not have found the ISO.
18:20:36 <elliott> Vorpal: In which case, what I need to do is get USB working properly and then hope WLAN works...
18:21:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I am probably the only person to have WLAN and not LAN working in Linux.
18:22:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm unable to help you with that. Both my laptops have tg3 ethernet. My desktop has via rheine (sp?) and the old dell tower has some 3com
18:22:18 <Vorpal> wait, I'm not sure what the old ibook has
18:23:01 <elliott> Vorpal: The easiest response to this is to buy a new computer.
18:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, nah. LFS and mix and match software :D
18:23:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Which would be trivial -- I could get a nice preassembled one from endpcnoise -- except that the fanless model is Intel-only.
18:23:49 <elliott> (Which of course makes sense, good luck cooling an AMD processor without using, say, the Statue of Liberty as a radiator.)
18:24:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Won't use ancient X.
18:25:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but opengenera?
18:25:06 <Vorpal> surely you must support that
18:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, bisect X and find what commit broke it
18:25:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I rather suspect it's Open Genera doing something evil instead.
18:25:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Open Genera will be supported by running it in a VM :P
18:26:32 <Vorpal> elliott, then why are you not doing that
18:27:09 <elliott> Vorpal: CPU has no virtualisation support.
18:27:33 <Vorpal> elliott, shitty system
18:27:45 <elliott> Vorpal: qemu-system-x86_64 took a couple of hours to install Ubuntu (!), and then I had to run an xterm rendered on a local Xephyr because GNOME took about 10 minutes to start up and was unusable after that.
18:27:55 <Vorpal> minecraft.net: "502 Bad Gateway<hr/>ZEN"
18:28:06 <Vorpal> where the hr is rendered
18:28:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, no, my system is fine; not supporting virtualisation is one of Intel's more-expensive-processor rendering tactics.
18:28:44 <elliott> Vorpal: 32-bit qemu is MUCH MUCH faster.
18:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well snap64 is a 64-bit binary
18:29:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Just saying, my system isn't slow or anything.
18:35:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Personally, I feel like it'd be a good idea to get it working on qemu-system-alpha.
18:35:53 <elliott> But I can't find an active torrent of Tru64.
18:37:24 <elliott> Vorpal: It'd be stabler like that, too.
18:38:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Also faster, since snap4 makes Open Genera output C code.
18:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, eh. output C code?
18:39:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Someone didn't read the README.
18:39:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I did but I forgot
18:39:44 <elliott> Vorpal: That someone is you, so go do so.
18:39:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have it on this computer
18:39:56 <Vorpal> and that computer is not booted atm
18:40:00 <elliott> http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/snap4.tar.gz
18:40:09 <elliott> Open in $archive_manager_of_choice.
18:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, I'm playing minecraft instead :P
18:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Right now I'm looking for Genera-8-5.vlod in the opengenera tarball.
18:42:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway: [[This is a port of Open Genera to X64_64 linux. It runs Open Genera
18:42:20 <elliott> under linux on a 64 bit X64 machine.
18:42:20 <elliott> In a moment of insanity I decided to hack up the "Open Genera" (OG)
18:42:20 <elliott> lisp code which assembles the Alpha version of OG. I changed the assembler
18:42:20 <elliott> to emit C code instead of assembler. I wrote support routines and made
18:42:20 <elliott> the C code "appear" to the existing emulator code as the original asm.
18:42:22 <elliott> I did have to make a few very small (1 line) changes to the original
18:42:24 <elliott> support code. My goal was not to make any, but some were required.]]
18:44:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, Open Genera predates "Tru64".
18:44:37 <elliott> Vorpal: The quickstart guide mentions Digital UNIX.
18:44:49 <elliott> So perhaps an older version would work.
18:45:06 <elliott> Can't find a Digital UNIX torrent though.
18:45:24 <elliott> Digital Unix 3.2C or later, says the manual.
18:46:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Heh -- the file versions in sys.sct are Digital Unix file versions or something.
18:46:10 <elliott> "/usr/sbin/mount -t cdfs -o noversion /dev/rz4c /cdrom"
18:46:34 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? I thought it was how genera represented it's version stuff when mapping to nfs
18:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably I am misinterpreting "-o noversion".
18:47:04 <elliott> Vorpal: AXP/OSF/installgenera appears to be the thing that sets everything up.
18:47:08 <elliott> Vorpal: There's also a VLM.image there...
18:47:58 <elliott> Don't really need a monitor or a mouse or anything; can just ssh and X11 in.
18:48:14 <elliott> Although it would come with a genuine CDE environment, I bet.
18:48:49 <elliott> DEC Alphastation 255/233 - alpha station vintage server £950.00
18:49:10 <elliott> And the hardware looks too weak, too.
18:49:47 <elliott> Compaq AlphaStation DS10 617MHZ 512MB £135.75
18:50:01 <elliott> Vorpal: heh http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=406156&image=371882423&images=371882417,371882423,371882427,371882433,371882436&formats=0,0,0,0,0&format=0
18:50:09 <elliott> Vorpal: "On second thoughts, maybe I don't want to pay for shipping on that."
18:50:35 <elliott> "Surplus Tech Mart is located in Israel, and we ship from Israel."
18:52:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Sec, extracting the text version to copy.
18:52:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm playing with local server
18:53:11 <Vorpal> due to the lack of tracking health
18:53:26 <elliott> At this point, the simplest command to run genera is
18:53:26 <elliott> genera -network <vlm-name>
18:53:27 <elliott> or, if your network uses a non-default subnet mask (see "Non-default
18:53:27 <elliott> Subnet Masks" for more information)
18:53:27 <elliott> genera -network "<vlm-name>;mask=xxx.yyy.zzz.aaa;gateway=bbb.ccc.dd
18:53:42 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, the debugger window is meant to be literally iconified
19:02:48 <elliott> "When you hit <return> after this command, it exands in place [...]"
19:03:36 <elliott> Vorpal: "You should then copy all the files in the site directory on the CD-ROM to the SYS:SITE; directory, e.g.
19:03:42 <elliott> Copy File host:/cdrom/sys.sct/site/* sys:site;"
19:04:14 <elliott> Vorpal: "After copying these files, you should boot the distribution world and then switch to the site you have just defined."
19:04:18 <elliott> SET SITE command, apparently.
19:05:19 <elliott> Vorpal: to avoid using -w you can change genera.world in .VLM
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19:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, did you find a tru64 copy?
19:16:15 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:16:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, there is http://torrentz.com/7acdf5b3b7c29dda65d8e2b1d7659a0b9cacad62.
19:16:32 <elliott> Vorpal: But I have a far better idea.
19:16:46 <pikhq> 12:12 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, you know that example of SVG only working in XHTML5-served-as-HTML5?
19:16:48 <pikhq> 12:12 <pikhq> elliott: I think I know a way to get it to work as valid HTML5.
19:16:50 <pikhq> 12:13 <pikhq> elliott: For the sake of compatibility with older useragents, the xmlns attribute on the html tag is allowed.
19:16:52 <pikhq> 12:14 <pikhq> elliott: And on the other places it would be required in XML.
19:16:55 <pikhq> 12:15 <pikhq> ... In fact, it's actually quite easy to get something that's valid HTML5 and XHTML5.
19:16:57 <pikhq> 12:15 -!- pikhq [~pikhq@75-173-203-141.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #esoteric
19:16:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Make a chroot. Hop in. Install qemu. Use qemu-alpha. NOT qemu-system-alpha.
19:17:09 <elliott> pikhq: Right, well, that's basically TagsoupML except standardised :P
19:17:17 <elliott> pikhq: Especially as the inside of the SVG would be represented as... as HTML.
19:17:27 <elliott> pikhq: Or XML embedded in HTML, my brain hurts.
19:17:36 <pikhq> elliott: It's XML embedded in HTML.
19:17:43 <pikhq> elliott: Do you have a *link* to that example handy, BTW?
19:17:46 <elliott> Vorpal: That way you can avoid snap4. But I am not convinced that the X bug is snap4's...
19:18:00 <elliott> pikhq: Uh, I hope I can find one.
19:18:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway http://torrentz.com/7acdf5b3b7c29dda65d8e2b1d7659a0b9cacad62.
19:18:13 <pikhq> Should be in the logs somewhere.
19:18:19 <elliott> Vorpal: But peers wouldn't connect to me last I tried.
19:18:23 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
19:18:27 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, you go grep them :P Try /burning/
19:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott, but qemu-alpha emulates linux not tru64?
19:18:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Because all snap4 does is s/alpha code/C code/.
19:18:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Open Genera running on Linux is a bit of an accident, I think.
19:18:58 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. What about system calls?
19:19:12 <elliott> Vorpal: ...Well, yes. That would be a slight issue.
19:19:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Well hey, it almost works as a plan :P
19:20:10 <pikhq> Fuck it, I'll just make an example that's valid HTML5 and XHTML5.
19:20:29 <elliott> 10.11.04:13:45:31 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html
19:20:30 <elliott> 10.11.04:13:45:32 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml
19:21:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well the torrent might just be slow. Perhaps the other person has an incorrectly configured firewall. If/when they try to connect it might work
19:21:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Let me know if you get it downloaded :P
19:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm leaving it like that over-night at least
19:21:39 <elliott> Vorpal: If you do download it, seeding would be much appreciated :)
19:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well I presume you will leave your torrent client running over night as well
19:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and that you will seed as well
19:22:24 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise: forget it
19:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, uh, why? I can't get it downloaded.
19:22:29 <pikhq> elliott: How to make the XHTML valid HTML: remove the RDF tags.
19:22:34 <Vorpal> elliott, nor can I yet
19:22:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, fine, I'll start Transmission.
19:22:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but when I downloaded an old old codewarrior it took several hours to connect. And in total over a day to download
19:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so I'm not giving up that easily
19:23:30 <pikhq> elliott: No, wait, it's just somewhat erroneous RDF.
19:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, or you could add a comment to the bay page saying "please seed" or such
19:23:39 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, there was a few seeds on a server not included in the torrentz.com link.
19:23:42 -!- ttm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it was on TPB.
19:23:50 <pikhq> Which is causing the HTML5 validator a fit.
19:23:51 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:23:52 <elliott> Now why isn't torrentz loading.
19:24:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I got more like 3 with publicbt included.
19:24:34 <Vorpal> elliott, can you give me the tracker url so I can add it manually in ktorrent then
19:24:37 <elliott> Why did torrentz *just* go down for me...
19:24:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Trying to, trying to.
19:24:52 <elliott> "It's just you. http://torrentz.com is up."
19:25:02 <elliott> Thankfully Google has it cached.
19:25:06 <elliott> Hey, Google is BREAKING THE LAW.
19:25:14 <elliott> They're facilitating COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.
19:25:31 <pikhq> And where that RDF is put in is making the *SVG* invalid.
19:25:43 <elliott> Vorpal: http://tracker.publicbt.com/announce
19:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, have that one
19:25:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is in the tpb file
19:25:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not if you are not in canada
19:26:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You have the torrentz list, too, right?
19:26:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but I used the tpb one...
19:26:26 <elliott> Vorpal: The whole point of using torrentz is that it tells you extra trackers to use.
19:26:29 <elliott> http://tracker.ilibr.org:6969/announce
19:26:34 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://www.torrentz.com/announce_7acdf5b3b7c29dda65d8e2b1d7659a0b9cacad62
19:26:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Ditch thepiratebay.org (their tracker has been not-working since the legal fuss), keep publicbt, add all of those.
19:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Voila, more peers.
19:27:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and one in Sweden
19:27:42 <elliott> Vorpal: This will never finish downloading ever :P
19:27:51 <elliott> Vorpal: By the way, you may want to prioritise the files.
19:28:00 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance, GNU_VOL1 is unlikely to be very important.
19:28:03 <elliott> Vorpal: (Or non-reproducable.)
19:28:06 <elliott> I suspect the same for PORT.
19:28:15 <elliott> I'd set those to low priority.
19:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean "download last"?
19:28:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, I don't know or care what your non-Transmission client calls them.
19:28:58 <elliott> The others are opaquely-named so I don't know what they are.
19:29:15 <elliott> So I'd leave them like that.
19:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect I know what README.txt is :P
19:29:19 <elliott> Presumably the README will have useful info.
19:29:27 <Vorpal> like what the other ones are
19:29:32 <Vorpal> so high priority on that one
19:29:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I don't see the point much, I will download them all anyway
19:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yours is going much faster than mine. Colossally so.
19:30:15 <elliott> Vorpal: If you end up with the whole thing and me at 1%, I legally obligate you to scp the files to me :P
19:30:16 <Vorpal> hm need to grow that partition
19:30:24 <elliott> 2.1 KiB/s, uploading at 82 KiB/s.
19:30:34 <Vorpal> elliott, why don't you connect to me as a peer
19:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see any from UK
19:31:09 <elliott> 207.168.110.228 using uTorrent
19:31:17 <elliott> and 79.136.44.219 using libTorrent which is probably you
19:31:31 <elliott> Vorpal: the other one has 6^
19:31:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm using ktorrent
19:31:39 <elliott> then you are connected to me
19:31:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, it's you, and you're the one hogging my upload pipe :P
19:32:10 <elliott> Well, moreso before, I guess. But that might have been someone else.
19:32:14 <Vorpal> no I'm not downloading from you atm
19:32:25 <pikhq> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><title>SVG</title></head><body><h1>SVG</h1><p>This is <code>text/html</code>!</p><h2>SVG</h2><svg height="800" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><circle cx="300" cy="300" r="300" fill="red"/></svg></body></html>
19:32:32 <elliott> Vorpal: You totally have to scp these to me when you have them X-P
19:32:33 <pikhq> Voila. Valid HTML5 and XHTML5.
19:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'm maxing my upload too
19:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, no, it is just 150 kb/s now
19:32:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I will seed it
19:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I won't scp them to you
19:32:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, regardless of you seeding it it is *impossibly slow*.
19:32:58 <Vorpal> elliott, take it or leave it
19:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, my upload is this slow too
19:33:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I wouldn't have linked you if I know you were gonna be such an ass about it...
19:33:18 <pikhq> 'Cept it, uh, doesn't work. Fuuuck.
19:33:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I got nothing close to 80 KiB/s until now.
19:33:32 <elliott> Now it's faster thanks to a seeder.
19:33:34 <Vorpal> elliott, because I'm uploading to more than one peer?
19:33:38 <elliott> Now the seeder's given up on me.
19:34:07 <Vorpal> elliott, dude that codewarrior download took 5 days!
19:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, this is nothing
19:34:33 <elliott> pikhq: What AMD CPU did you buy?
19:34:42 <pikhq> elliott: It works if the file suffix is .xhtml
19:34:44 <elliott> pikhq: A four-core with a broken fourth core, right? aka Phenom X3
19:35:04 <elliott> pikhq: Phenom II, presumably? What clock speed? And is it any good?
19:35:49 <elliott> Vorpal: "^" says nothing. Restate that.
19:35:58 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, dude that codewarrior download took 5 days!
19:35:58 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, this is nothing
19:36:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You didn't restate the ^ line.
19:36:14 <pikhq> Phenom II x3 710; clock speed of 2.6 Gs^-1.
19:36:19 <elliott> Vorpal: "Please reply to these messages because I fear you might have a one-line scrollback and not have seen them?"
19:36:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Restate as in reword.
19:36:47 <elliott> pikhq: Got any temperature vs fan speed readings? (Stock cooler?)
19:36:53 <Vorpal> elliott, "please acknowledge them because I think you were intentionally avoiding them" :P
19:36:54 <elliott> pikhq: Trying to figure out if AMD will work in a fanless build or not :P
19:37:07 <pikhq> elliott: Stock cooler, it will not be nice fanless.
19:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I just tend to ignore things that any response would be content-free.
19:37:21 <elliott> Vorpal: ais does, too. Interestingly much more with you
19:37:36 <pikhq> The fan is fairly *quiet* when it's idle, but it's always going. And I don't have any fan speed readings handy.
19:37:49 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, this is what I consider a "CPU cooler": http://www.clunk.org.uk/images/articles/dfi/lanparty-cooler/RIMG0115-sm.jpg
19:38:14 <elliott> pikhq: I can run anything fanless, it's just a matter of whether the *other* components will make the maximum heat too much or not :P
19:38:32 <elliott> Incidentally: Coolers like that make me seriously consider sideways cases.
19:38:39 <pikhq> That's somewhat ridiculous.
19:38:41 <elliott> I do not feel like hanging that from that light sheet of metal.
19:39:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't want that one to get dusty
19:39:18 <elliott> Vorpal: What's it gonna do, fry the dust?
19:39:18 <pikhq> I may have to obtain one... XD
19:39:28 <Vorpal> elliott, it would reduce cooling quite a bit and it would be a PITA to clean it
19:39:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but it's much harder to get dusty because of reduced air flow.
19:39:56 <elliott> pikhq: That one is meant for Core i7s; "Megahalems". For well-respected CPU coolers in that vein, see http://www.scythe-usa.com/.
19:40:03 <elliott> pikhq: They also sell very quiet fans.
19:40:31 <pikhq> elliott: Do they sell quiet power supplies?
19:40:39 <elliott> pikhq: Note: Being a silentpcreview fan, my definition of "quiet fan" is "literally inaudible, due to being below the ambient noise of any room not designed for very low ambient noise".
19:40:54 <elliott> pikhq: Power supply -- try the Nexus VALUE 430.
19:41:00 <elliott> pikhq: It's basically silent.
19:41:14 <elliott> pikhq: (You can get fanless PSUs, but they're not as common nowadays and they all have quiet low wattage).
19:41:17 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-Nexus-VALUE-430-silent-power-supply-80plus-430watt.htm
19:41:28 <elliott> pikhq: Nexus also sell very quiet case fans.
19:41:30 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-silentcasefans.htm
19:41:40 <Vorpal> elliott, my thinkpad is silent most of the time. Fan only spins up to audible levels very rarely
19:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: Only buy 120mm fans. Anything smaller is loud. Also: dB(A) ratings are ALWAYS a lie.
19:41:46 <pikhq> I don't currently have a case fan...
19:41:52 <Vorpal> and even then I wouldn't hear it when placed next to my desktop :P
19:41:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Silent meaning literally silent.
19:42:00 <elliott> pikhq: If you cool everything passively, a case fan is a good idea.
19:42:06 <elliott> pikhq: Especially with AMD ;)
19:42:17 <pikhq> And, yeah, I'm well aware that smaller fans are louder.
19:42:24 <elliott> pikhq: Nexus also make huge coolers: http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-silent_amd_cpu_coolers.htm
19:42:30 <elliott> pikhq: but Scythe are the champion for things you can run without a fan at all.
19:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes same. Most of the time the fan is stopped or running on lowest speed when not doing very very heavy stuff such as playing a 3D game *and* compressing with xz -9 -e
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19:42:41 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and... make sure your motherboard has enough room.
19:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Your HD is audible. :)
19:43:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, lowest speed fan IS NOT silent.
19:43:03 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:43:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well no. It is very silent
19:43:12 <elliott> Vorpal: The only things that are silent are things quieter than ambient noise.
19:43:20 <pikhq> I can hear the fan on my computer most of the time.
19:43:27 <elliott> Vorpal: To see what that requires, make sure no cars are going by or whatever at the moment, turn everything off, and *listen to what you hear*.
19:43:29 <pikhq> Though when it's idle it's bairly audible white noise.
19:43:36 <elliott> You hear nothing? Congrats: your fan has to be quieter than nothing to be silent.
19:43:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the lowest speed is quieter than the ambient noise both at home and at university
19:43:50 <Vorpal> elliott, for all practical purposes it is thus silent for me
19:43:56 <elliott> Doubtful... not if you listened hard.
19:43:59 <pikhq> When not-idle, yeah, that sucker is noisy.
19:44:19 <Vorpal> elliott, okay not if I put my ear against the air exhaust :P
19:44:20 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance, if you figured out the fan was running in ANY way other than checking your computer's fan information, it wasn't below ambient noise.
19:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, but if I'm 10 cm away from that: I can't hear it
19:44:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, okay, or that.
19:44:51 <elliott> Yes, you can't hear it, but that's your ears' fault. :P
19:45:06 <elliott> I am not satisfied with silence to my ears! No, I must know that no parts are moving!
19:45:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have better than average hearing. Had that tested some years ago...
19:45:22 <pikhq> elliott: So, entirely solid-state?
19:45:23 <elliott> And prepare myself for the creeped-outness of a computer that seemingly does nothing when I press the on button.
19:45:43 <pikhq> That will be an astoundingly long-lasting computer.
19:45:52 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. Except for one terabyte-or-more bulk storage disk, of 7200rpm or less (5400rpm is probably good enough), for storing big stuff.
19:46:00 <elliott> pikhq: And *that* will be in an enclosure designed to muffle the noise.
19:46:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and well I know the hdd is moving. Can't hear it though. Well if I put my ear against the palmrest just above the hdd then I can hear it. But since I don't do that during normal operation I don't consider it a problem :P
19:46:13 <elliott> pikhq: And when a reliable SSD manufacturer releases a 1 TiB SSD...
19:46:35 <elliott> pikhq: However, long-lasting it may not be; if I overshoot and choose components that are too hot, they could overheat.
19:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot "affordable" there :P
19:46:46 <elliott> pikhq: But if it gets cooled decently... yes, it will be lovely.
19:46:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I could see parting $400 for it.
19:46:59 <elliott> Vorpal: (But I wouldn't be happy about it.)
19:47:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Ahh, I would love the original TNN.
19:47:18 <elliott> Vorpal: But they have a smaller version that they actually still make.
19:47:24 <elliott> I am likely to go with that.
19:47:29 <Vorpal> elliott, a 5400 RPM laptop disk is quiet. Which is what my thinkpad has
19:47:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Failing that, just put huge coolers on everything, completely open the air holes in the back of the case (just leave a gap), and hope for the best.
19:48:02 <pikhq> Yeah, at 5400 RPM you're only likely to hear head movement...
19:48:14 <pikhq> Unless that is one shitty hard drive.
19:48:17 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, if you're on a budget, know that Nexus fans are just Yate Loon fans, except they throw away the not-so-optimal ones.
19:48:26 -!- dbc has joined.
19:48:29 <elliott> pikhq: That is: Yate Loon gets you the best... most of the time. :)
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19:48:38 <elliott> pikhq: And they're cheaper.
19:48:39 <pikhq> elliott: Keep in mind that I buy AMD. ;)
19:48:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean one that doesn't have to be shipped on a pallet?
19:48:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Well I wouldn't go *that* far!
19:49:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Yeah, at 5400 RPM you're only likely to hear head movement... <-- and I don't hear that either
19:49:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Let me find a page for you.
19:49:29 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=totally_noiseless_case.html
19:49:34 <Vorpal> elliott, internet is slooow atm. Due to torrent
19:49:39 <Vorpal> loading google took half a minute
19:49:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Introducing Zalman's diminutive Totally Noiseless Computer Case (the TNN 300). This case is for the extremely demanding quiet enthusiast, who also desires a small case. Like the TNN 500AF this fanless case includes every item you need in order to noiselessly cool your computer without any fans or noise. It includes a fanless heatpipe technology power supply, CPU cooler, and video cooler. The TNN 500AF is compatible with Mini-ATX motherboa
19:49:50 <elliott> rds and CPUs up to 70 watts.
19:49:56 <Vorpal> maxing my up speed + shitty modem
19:50:00 <elliott> 70 watts?? They sell it with i5s in it!
19:50:05 <elliott> But then they are <70 watts.
19:50:17 <elliott> [[This noiseless case also has a few other limitations. For example, because of its small size, there is only enough room in the case for one optical drive. This eliminates the possibility of using an ordinarily noisy hard with a hard drive enclosure.]]
19:50:40 <elliott> Vorpal: The nice thing about the TNNs is that they come with fanless PSU.s
19:50:47 <elliott> In the 300's case it's a 350 watt one...
19:51:01 <elliott> Vorpal: If you want to run hefty equipment fanlessly, that's possible. But you'll have to bend copper pipes yourself.
19:51:08 <elliott> Vorpal: (Think: big, big radiator.)
19:51:18 <elliott> This TNN 300, like TNN 500AF is not only silent, but has many other desirable features, including:
19:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: [[With the provided remote control, not only can the PC be turned on & off, you can access various media such as movies, music files, pictures, and internet radio, and control multimedia peripherals such as DVD, TV, digital camcorder, and digital camera.]]
19:51:36 <elliott> Vorpal: totally what a silence freak is looking for amirite
19:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: ("Those buttons make NOISE when you press them down!")
19:52:29 <elliott> V5.1Br2650_O1.iso.bz2Tru64 5.1B operating system install
19:52:29 <elliott> V5.1Br2650_A1.iso.bz2Associated products 1
19:52:29 <elliott> V5.1Br2650_A2.iso.bz2Associated products 2
19:52:29 <elliott> T64V51BB27AS0006_install.iso.bz2CD with the 5.1B4 patch kit
19:52:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd prioritise the first and last one to the top, and leave the associated products as-is.
19:53:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Since, really, all you need is stock Unix.
19:53:51 <elliott> pikhq: Vorpal: BTW, if you're willing to accept the noise of a pump(!!111zomg), you can easily do otherwise-passive watercooling with a radiator and cool much more with a smaller radiator.
19:55:01 <pikhq> elliott: Or I could just use larger and quieter fans.
19:55:06 <Vorpal> elliott, how many PCI slots can you fit on those?
19:55:06 <Vorpal> elliott, they don't make the large original one any more?
19:55:06 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, my thinkpad manages fine on a 65 W fanless one :P
19:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway step 1 for fanless PSU: make it external. That makes cooling it a *lot* easier
19:55:07 <pikhq> Which is cheaper still.
19:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, for the original one or what?
19:55:58 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, how many PCI slots can you fit on those?
19:56:21 <elliott> Vorpal: <Vorpal> elliott, anyway step 1 for fanless PSU: make it external. That makes cooling it a *lot* easier
19:56:28 <fizzie> I see that you're talking about noiseless computers, but I can't in any way understand what Tru64 Unix has to do with that. Do you have an Alpha in there or something?
19:56:40 <Vorpal> that lag spike was annoying
19:56:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, sure. But the PicoPSU, for instance, I think the 90W power brick has a fan.
19:56:56 <elliott> fizzie: Open Genera runs on Tru64 Unix.
19:57:03 <elliott> fizzie: The Linux port is... a hack, basically. And it'll be slower.
19:57:14 <elliott> fizzie: We're going to run ourselves a Lisp Machine.
19:57:19 <elliott> Vorpal: this PSU. it's tiny.
19:57:21 <elliott> Vorpal: with an external power brick
19:57:47 <elliott> Vorpal: see http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/picopsu/picopsu5.jpg when your internet gets working
19:57:57 <fizzie> But what are you going to run Tru64 on?
19:58:08 <elliott> fizzie: qemu-system-alpha. Unless you would like to donate... :P
19:58:20 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably there is an internal psu in the laptop that converts from the 20 V in to the different voltages different components want
19:59:13 <elliott> Vorpal: "Because its footprint is no bigger than the ATX connector itself"
19:59:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I just hope tru64 likes the hardware of qemu-system-alpha...
19:59:23 <elliott> Vorpal: it is, literally, an ATX connector that's a bit longer :D
19:59:36 <elliott> Vorpal: qemu-system-alpha was probably designed for tru64
19:59:38 <fizzie> elliott: No, it's just, I didn't think it even think it existed. My qemu-extras packages don't have a -system-alpha, and so on.
19:59:44 <Vorpal> elliott, eh, no SATA power?
19:59:52 <Vorpal> elliott, also too few molex
19:59:53 <elliott> Vorpal: um, now, hate to, but,
19:59:54 <fizzie> I guess it might be new-ish though.
19:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: there is qemu-alpha
20:00:20 <fizzie> Yes, that's why I was wondering.
20:00:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so it won't work?
20:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, you told me it would
20:00:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, qemu-system-alpha literally doesn't exist.
20:00:41 <elliott> I assumed it did since qemu-alpha exists.
20:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: There is probably an Alpha emulator.
20:01:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: Bringing DC voltage down from 20V is much easier than rectifying AC and then bringing the voltage down from 120V or 240V.
20:01:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, because you told me to?
20:01:27 <Vorpal> elliott, because my internet is broken :P
20:01:31 <elliott> [[To run Tru64 I will try CHARON-AXP or REVIVE-ALPHA.]]
20:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, google timed out for me
20:01:35 <elliott> [[withal i found that a simics is another choice.is that right ?]]
20:01:47 <elliott> (wow @ someone in tehran saying "withal" with otherwise-broken english :D)
20:01:56 <elliott> [[Hi friends. I try VIRTUAL SIMICS. that works properly. i have installed sparc solaris on it. and it works very fine. i'll buy it as soon as possible. i love simics. It supports very larg number of hardware components and emulate anything that may be occur to the mind.]]
20:02:08 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr pirate Simics.
20:02:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, also: ITYM 230 V
20:02:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah, right.
20:03:14 <elliott> Vorpal: or actually simics seems very enterprisey.
20:03:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, used to be 220 V in Sweden some years ago (15? 20? 25? Not sure)
20:03:25 <elliott> Vorpal: CHARON-AXP looks good; pirate that.
20:03:33 <Vorpal> elliott, needs pirating?
20:03:39 <elliott> "With CHARON-AXP replacing your Alpha is a matter of days instead of months or years."
20:03:46 <Vorpal> elliott, does it run under linux?
20:03:48 <elliott> Vorpal: proprietary, so yes.
20:04:00 <elliott> but their diagram says windows, so let me look
20:04:12 <elliott> Vorpal: "# Accepted as legitimate (VMS; Tru64) Alpha replacement at affordable cost"
20:04:18 <elliott> [[The host system can be a multi-core Intel or AMD processor based server that supports 64-bit operation, with Windows x64 2003 Server as operating system.]]
20:04:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The actual voltage used is anywhere from 220V to 240V, depending on the country.
20:04:28 <elliott> Vorpal: [[CHARON-AXP/ES40 for Linux (NCE) is a virtual Alpha ES40 system for X64 Linux made by Stromasys, built for testing and experimental purposes only, ...]]
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20:04:48 <fizzie> I think the general tolerances for nominal 230V are 10%, so anything [207, 253] is okay.
20:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, find me the torrent and I'll look at it
20:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/
20:05:02 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Unlike the commercial versions of CHARON-AXP, the NCE version does not use CPU acceleration technology.]]
20:05:14 <elliott> [[Our commercial CHARON-AXP products provide 400+ MIPS on an Intel Core i7 3.2 GHz host, versus approximately 50 MIPS for the CHARON-AXP/ES40 NCE version.]]
20:05:15 <elliott> Vorpal: meh, 30 MIPS will do me :P
20:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, DNS timeout XD
20:05:34 <elliott> Technical information, host system requirements, and installation/configuration instructions can be found here. CHARON-AXP/ES40 for Linux NCE distribution is here (tar.bz archive, 1.24MB). An OpenVMS/AXP 8.3 disk image (with no VMS licenses) can be downloaded here (.vdisk tar.bz2 archive, 311MB, for demonstration purposes only).
20:05:41 <elliott> Vorpal: ftp://es40nce:eqs438gfv@ftp.stromasys.com/charon-axp_es40_v01_b111_linux_x64_nce.tar.gz FWIW
20:06:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Emulators that only run on one platform amuse me.
20:06:04 <fizzie> elliott: "This release of CHARON-AXP/ES40 NCE will expire on 12/31/2010, it will be updated before the end of the each year." Those are some fancy terms.
20:06:26 <fizzie> Also a 30-day use limit.
20:06:40 <elliott> fizzie: I sometimes feel that the worst mistake in operating systems was allowing programs to access time.
20:06:59 <elliott> Or record how many times they've been used :P
20:07:10 <elliott> "This license of mv(1) has expired. ..."
20:07:34 <fizzie> There might be a spare Alpha somewhere around the university; there were several Tru64 boxes which have been retired from service. Don't know what happened to 'em, though.
20:08:40 <elliott> Vorpal: ha, the same company that makes CHARON-AXP also make PDP-11 and VAX emulators
20:08:55 <elliott> fizzie: I wish I was alive around the time when there were still interesting non-x86 architectures around.
20:08:57 <elliott> fizzie: Now it's all PC, PC, PC.
20:09:23 <elliott> Vorpal: "This is a 2002 research paper that describes a DEC PDP-8 emulator that runs on MS-DOS."
20:09:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure if our place still has any non-x86s; I saw the old UltraSparc 10 workstations in the corridor the other day.
20:09:59 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:10:54 -!- Vorpal has joined.
20:11:17 <elliott> * Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
20:11:20 <fizzie> Okay, there's still this one: http://p.zem.fi/psrinfo
20:11:38 <fizzie> "Sun Fire 880 8 x 900 MHz UltraSPARC III+ 16 GB RAM Solaris 10 10/09 s10s_u8wos_08a SPARC"
20:11:42 <fizzie> It's being phased out, though.
20:11:46 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There might be a spare Alpha somewhere around the university; there were several Tru64 boxes which have been retired from service. Don't know what happened to 'em, though.
20:11:46 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, better locate a torrent what with the limits on that version...
20:11:52 <Vorpal> elliott, that was the last I saw
20:12:03 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: ha, the same company that makes CHARON-AXP also make PDP-11 and VAX emulators
20:12:04 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: I wish I was alive around the time when there were still interesting non-x86 architectures around.
20:12:04 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: Now it's all PC, PC, PC.
20:12:04 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: "This is a 2002 research paper that describes a DEC PDP-8 emulator that runs on MS-DOS."
20:12:05 <elliott> <fizzie> I'm not sure if our place still has any non-x86s; I saw the old UltraSparc 10 workstations in the corridor the other day.
20:12:07 <elliott> * Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
20:12:08 <Vorpal> elliott, loading a webpage is not possible, this includes log
20:12:09 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, DNS timeout XD
20:12:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm always impressed how IRC tends to work even when nothing else does.
20:12:40 <elliott> <fizzie> Okay, there's still this one: http://p.zem.fi/psrinfo
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Heh.
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> that's annoying
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> and pointless if they intend to keep that promise
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Also a 30-day use limit.
20:13:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> "This license of mv(1) has expired. ..."
20:13:15 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fizzie, well screw that
20:13:16 <elliott> pikhq: MUGEN 2 is Scythe's WTFJESUS model. YASYA too.
20:13:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There might be a spare Alpha somewhere around the university; there were several Tru64 boxes which have been retired from service. Don't know what happened to 'em, though.
20:13:19 <elliott> In fact YASYA might even be crazier
20:13:21 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, better locate a torrent what with the limits on that version...
20:13:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Scythe CPU coolers.
20:13:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Of the HEATPIPE TOWER variety.
20:14:04 <fizzie> The 30-day limit sounded work-aroundable: it seemed more like "you can have this thing up and running only for 30 days consecutively, then it'll shutdown and cause downtime, so you'd better not run your critical services on it".
20:17:35 <elliott> No results for CHARON-AXP on TPB; can't access torrentz.com right now.
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20:27:42 <zzo38> Linux has filesystem in userspace, but there is something I do not like about it see the example at http://fuse.sourceforge.net/ but I would prefer something like this http://sprunge.us/ZbOf
20:28:01 <elliott> zzo38: you should install Plan 9 instead of Linux
20:31:43 <zzo38> Does Plan 9 work in that way?
20:32:09 <elliott> zzo38: I believe so. Either that or a very similar way.
20:32:16 <elliott> zzo38: And it has 9P all over the place, of course.
20:33:24 <zzo38> Where is the instruction how that kind of things works in Plan 9?
20:34:28 <elliott> zzo38: The Plan 9 Manual, which is included in every Plan 9 system.
20:34:52 <elliott> zzo38: You can download Plan 9 Fourth Edition here: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/download/plan9.iso.bz2
20:35:03 <elliott> zzo38: If your system cannot boot CDs, you also need: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/download/plan9.flp.gz
20:35:13 <elliott> zzo38: Installation documentation is http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/installation_instructions/, if you decide to install it.
20:35:30 <elliott> zzo38: There is also http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Documentation/.
20:35:43 <elliott> zzo38: This includes all the Plan 9 papers, a web interface to every man page, and also guides for installation and configuration.
20:35:55 <elliott> zzo38: The man pages are where most Plan 9 documentation is; try looking up "9p" or similar.
20:37:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The Intel GFX people continue to be profoundly unhelpful!
20:37:14 <elliott> zzo38: If your keyboard, mouse, VGA card and Ethernet card work, then you're set. USB mice/keyboards aren't supported.
20:37:37 <elliott> zzo38: You can easily verify the first three by trying to boot the CD; if it boots and you can use your keyboard and mouse in the graphical display, they work. You could then check Ethernet works.
20:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I have so far been told to upgrade my drivers to the new ones from Sid, which I did, and when that didn't help noöne even responded.
20:37:56 <Sgeo> Dear YouTube: Stop buffering even though you have plenty of the video loaded
20:38:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it's a developer's channel, which I found out by reading the topic.
20:39:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try #debian.
20:39:16 <elliott> They can point you places gruffly.
20:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> They had even less help when I asked them, even when I asked them where I could go
20:39:36 <elliott> [[Although several netbooks using the Poulsbo chipset are shipped with some distribution of Linux (notably the Sony Vaio P and Dell Inspiron Mini 12, among others), Poulsbo's graphics core GMA 500 is currently not well supported by Intel for Linux.]]
20:39:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is yours a GMA 500?
20:39:53 <elliott> [[However there is a quite easy way to have the drivers work on any Debian-based distribution, thanks to the Ubuntu sources and packages, for the linux kernel 2.6.30 (with newer kernel it would need a little hacking but seems still possible while the sources are included). A detailed explanation is available here[5].
20:39:54 <elliott> A proprietary driver was shipped with Dell's adaptation of Ubuntu 8.04.1 Netbook Remix, which provides 2D hardware acceleration (although users reported serious stability issues[6]) under Linux kernel 2.6.24. A work-in-progress free driver is currently available, however the proprietary driver does not work with current Linux kernels and current versions of X.[7] Work is under way to provide at least 2D support in current Linux kernels,[8] althou
20:39:54 <elliott> gh this will still rely on proprietary binary code for the 3D part of the driver. The current[9] status of this driver runs on Fedora 10 and allows for 2D. 3D acceleration, however, is still broken.]]
20:39:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is it?
20:40:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (lspci or whatever, etc.)
20:40:14 <elliott> zzo38: Are these links helpful?
20:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have no problems at all.
20:40:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What laptop model?
20:41:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well that's helpful.
20:41:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, try Ubuntu's driver.
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20:41:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have mobile 4 series on my thinkpad
20:41:33 <elliott> This may break X, so prepare to not use it.
20:43:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt absurd CPU cooler sizes: http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_014.jpg
20:43:55 <Vorpal> elliott, absurdly large
20:43:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Is that a Noctua cooler or just Noctua fans on a non-Noctua cooler?
20:44:00 <elliott> Looks like the former but I can't tell.
20:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Ehh, not that absurdly large.
20:44:10 <Vorpal> elliott, a noctua cooler according to the page it is on
20:44:14 <elliott> It's mostly a trick of perspective.
20:44:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Those fans are big but they're not *huge*.
20:44:28 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't. That middle one is a 140 mm fan
20:44:33 <elliott> I know how big the fans are.
20:44:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It's seriously not *that* gigantic, as gigantic coolers go.
20:45:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://packages.ubuntu.com/maverick-updates/xserver-xorg-video-intel
20:45:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...so download the .deb?
20:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, know anything more gigantic?
20:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, that is actually mass produced
20:45:38 <zzo38> elliott: I did look at the documentation; Plan 9 does not work in the way I specified in my example file either
20:45:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The megahalems may be bigger. Can't tell.
20:45:56 <zzo38> (If I install Linux, I could modify the system to do what I think it should do)
20:45:57 <elliott> zzo38: OK, but every program gets its own filesystem namespace.
20:46:02 <Vorpal> elliott, this will help: http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_015.jpg
20:46:04 <elliott> zzo38: You can do that with Plan 9 too.
20:46:16 <elliott> zzo38: /sys/src contains full sources. You can modify them, "mk" them, and "mk install" them.
20:46:26 <elliott> zzo38: This is on every Plan 9 system. (More information about compiling it is available in the man pages.)
20:46:41 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, that's pretty big. Got a link?
20:47:14 <Vorpal> elliott, to that page in the review: http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1212/4/ (you might want to go to the first page at the list at the bottom)
20:47:35 <Vorpal> elliott, ah yes, didn't notice that
20:47:42 <elliott> Vorpal: on the megahalems: "Does its job well and reduced the temperature of my CPU by 25 - 30 degrees over the stock heat sink."
20:48:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that link was to the 2.12.0 version of the drivers, yes?
20:48:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu patch things.
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20:49:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So try it.
20:49:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Heyy, that thing is AM3-compatible with a backplate.
20:49:34 <elliott> Vorpal: 900 grams... nice.
20:49:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Hope it works without a fan :P
20:50:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no clue :P
20:50:01 <zzo38> Maybe I can have like: if(path_starts_with(path,"/mixer")) return mixer_userfs(command,path+6,data);
20:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I use the stock AMD Sempron 3300+ heatsink with the stock fan. So...
20:50:40 <elliott> zzo38: You could easily modify Plan 9 to do these things. The code is a lot simpler and smaller than Plan 9 too, so it will be easier.
20:50:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: --force-all
20:50:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well it runs quite cool :P
20:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, and the PSU fan is way louder
20:51:00 <elliott> http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_005.jpg
20:51:02 <elliott> "Versus can of Dr Pepper!"
20:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to be so paranoid about thermal paste.
20:51:34 <elliott> "Did I get it on properly? Aieeeeee"
20:52:33 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_017.jpg
20:52:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_016.jpg
20:52:45 <elliott> Oh my, not only are there Megahalems, there are now "Supermegas" from the same manufacturer.
20:52:53 <elliott> "Following the huge success of Megahalems comes the super edition, the SUPER MEGA."
20:53:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Internet working now, eh?
20:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I limited upload to 10 kbps less than my max speed
20:53:22 <Vorpal> elliott, then everything works fine
20:53:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I would whine, but my download is pretty good now :P
20:54:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you might whine all you like, but I like actually being able to access stuff
20:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: "It also has the one thing that I think most enthusiasts wish they could change about a Noctua fan: the color."
20:54:19 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) the colours are nice! (2) ...it's meant to be in your fucking computer
20:54:36 <Vorpal> elliott, plexiglass cases I guess
20:54:54 <elliott> Vorpal: god I hate "PC" "enthusiasts"
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20:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, "Now, if you were thinking about adding a third fan, well, don’t. The back of the cooler is so close to the back of the case and the rear fan that it most likely wouldn’t fit."
20:55:10 <elliott> Vorpal: who think they're hardware-savvy or "built their own computer" because they plugged a few components together
20:55:15 <elliott> As if it's hard! It's DESIGNED to be easy.
20:55:17 <elliott> It's DESIGNED to be routine.
20:55:34 <elliott> You plug A into Z, B into Z, C into D, and D into Z, and you press the on button.
20:55:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt my grandma could manage though. But she couldn't manage to use a mouse I think
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20:55:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Well yeah, it's not trivial, but it's also something anyone could do with a simple set of instructions.
20:56:18 <Vorpal> elliott, slightly trickier than IKEA. (IKEA needs no ESD protection)
20:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, now what *is* tricky is doing the same on a laptop
20:56:40 <Vorpal> service manual is a *must* there
20:56:45 <elliott> Vorpal: But what about the WIRELESS anti-static wristwraps?
20:56:59 <elliott> (Yes, people market these. Not that they work.)
20:57:00 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? how would that work?
20:57:08 <Vorpal> elliott, so false marketing
20:57:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It doesn't. But it doesn't stop 'em from selling it...
20:57:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, these companies are on the super-shady end of shady anyway :P
20:57:25 <elliott> They're probably in China or something.
20:57:36 <elliott> Vorpal: And if you sued every company with shady marketing in China, ... hahahaha.
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20:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, link to that super-megahalem?
20:58:34 <Vorpal> I can't find it with google
20:58:39 <Vorpal> link to a review that is
20:58:42 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835242006
20:58:45 <elliott> They look just like Megahalems to me.
20:58:52 <elliott> They have COPPER in them too.
20:58:56 <elliott> I thought that was a watermark or something.
20:59:22 <Vorpal> elliott, also "supermega" is such a bad name
20:59:28 <Vorpal> superhalem would have been better
21:00:17 <elliott> Vorpal: http://pro-clockers.com/cooling/1703-prolimatech-super-mega.html http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/prolimatech_super_mega,1.html Haven't loaded these but just from the domain name I'd be sceptical of them.
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21:00:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Today on "Darwinism In Action":
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21:00:47 <elliott> [[Is It Necessary To Wear Anti Static Wrist Wrap When Installing A Mobo?
21:00:49 <elliott> what are the chances of shorting the mobo or cpu whae building a computer,and is no wrist wraps,what else would would work thanks
21:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, didn't really "work", but it had some... interesting behaviour.
21:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The test I'm using (running FreeSpace 2 with the latest graphical extensions on) failed, rather than crashing the computer.
21:02:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's better, no?
21:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> More curiously, it failed in a way it's failed before; I'm looking into the details now
21:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Regrettably, the FS2 SCP developers decided that debug output should require a debug build.
21:03:06 <elliott> Vorpal: jesus, most people on http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=169880 are saying "naw you don't need a wrist strap"
21:03:11 <elliott> "Always handle all your hardware by the very edges of the PCB, and even if there were a static shock, more than likely it would never hit anything vital or even do any damage if it did."
21:03:15 <elliott> "I'm an electrician and grounding your self with a wrist band is alittle over the top, BUT, if it makes yourself feal better then do it."
21:07:01 <elliott> Something amusing that I've said before: djb has published parts, assembly and installation instructions for his "standard workstation" in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2009. However, he has not assembled any of them past the 2006 one.
21:07:12 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/advice.html
21:07:14 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20060107.html
21:07:16 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20071203.html
21:07:19 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20090123.html
21:07:30 <pikhq> Now, when working on consumer electronics, it's not *exceptionally* likely that you're going to damage something via static electricity. But why risk it? When it does happen, that is going to be an expensive lesson to learn...
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21:08:16 <elliott> pikhq: they're kiddies, if they break if they can just recharge it all to their parents' credit cards
21:08:43 <pikhq> Especially since it's not exactly hard to keep yourself grounded...
21:09:13 <elliott> I wish Newegg operated in the UK.
21:09:19 <pikhq> Either a wrist strap or (if you've got a bare metal case with a power supply in it, attached to the case itself, and plugged in) remain in contact with the damned metal of the case.
21:09:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:09:51 <pikhq> (assuming, of course, your house is actually grounded. If it isn't, your electrician is a madman.)
21:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> [[compiz (core) - Fatal: Software rendering detected.]]
21:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> DRIconf is also no longer able to start in the nicey-nice mode and instead defaults to the advanced interface.
21:10:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't use Compiz.
21:10:51 <fizzie> pikhq: Anything built pre-1980s around here tends -- well, unless someone's actually done some renovation, which is likely for pre-1950 -- to have only ungrounded outlets, except a few in special places like the bathroom.
21:11:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you really want window shadows, enable Metacity compositing.
21:11:03 <pikhq> fizzie: Where "here" is?
21:11:14 <elliott> fizzie: Aww, we're same-second buddies!
21:11:18 <elliott> fizzie: I own your firstborn now.
21:11:28 <fizzie> elliott: Not from where I look from! But anyhow.
21:11:50 <elliott> <fizzie> elliott: By that logic, I own your firstborn too.
21:11:54 <elliott> <elliott> Isn't that called "marriage"?
21:12:05 <pikhq> fizzie: I'm surprised that many modern electronics work there, then — most things kinda require a grounded outlet...
21:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I'm getting an error from FS2 about DDSes being compressed but compression not being enabled.
21:12:42 <pikhq> Or, at least, should. Do your IEC cables just not hook up the grounding pin? If so, you are all crazy.
21:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing is, I got this error before, and it was "fixed" by enabling an option in DRIconf.
21:13:05 <elliott> pikhq: You Americans are crazy for not having a child-saving safety plug pin!
21:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I say "fixed" because it didn't give any errors and instead just broke the computer.
21:14:09 <pikhq> elliott: You Brits are crazy for having a ring circuit and fuses in the plug!
21:14:11 <Vorpal> elliott, why does djb make those standard workstation things?
21:15:22 <Vorpal> <fizzie> pikhq: Anything built pre-1980s around here tends -- well, unless someone's actually done some renovation, which is likely for pre-1950 -- to have only ungrounded outlets, except a few in special places like the bathroom. <-- same in Sweden
21:15:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Aww, we're same-second buddies! <-- not from here
21:15:54 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, why does djb make those standard workstation things?
21:16:02 <fizzie> pikhq: Grounded outlets here are type F -- http://electricaloutlet.org/type-f -- which has two grounding connectors on the sides; the older ones just have a round hole. So you can indeed plug grounded cables into an old-style power outlet, and it connects just phase and neutral.
21:16:05 <elliott> 'cuz he built a computer twice, and published the specs to stop people bothering him?
21:16:12 <elliott> Or just inherently assumes that everyone values his own opinion.
21:16:29 <fizzie> (You can't plug the old-style round connector into a grounded outlet, though, without whittling it down a bit.)
21:16:30 <elliott> To be honest, the components are well thought-out, it's just surprising he goes to the effort if he doesn't bother building it.
21:16:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, he tells people to share his experiences with the djb-hardware list on his pages, so presumably people actually build them.
21:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: There are a lot of slightly-crazy "djb way" people.
21:16:56 <pikhq> fizzie: That's... Crazy. If you somehow plugged in a grounded cable to an ungrounded socket, there could be a shock risk.
21:17:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, um. Presumably they would design the products to be safe for both
21:18:13 <elliott> Aww, that "the djb way" ebook is down.
21:18:20 <elliott> (No, the result after that isn't it.)
21:18:20 <fizzie> pikhq: That's also what is pretty commonly done. Basically anyone who has a computer in a place with ungrounded outlets by default.
21:18:37 <elliott> [[DJB says that a construct like:
21:18:39 <elliott> would make it possible to take over the machine by a local user.
21:18:39 <elliott> What does he mean exactly with his statement? Can anyone shed
21:18:39 <elliott> some light on that? I don't really understand this.]]
21:19:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well assuming q is valid for the length of tz it looks fine to me
21:19:44 <elliott> Vorpal: It fails to null-terminate q. Duh.
21:20:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I would have assumed that was done after
21:20:09 <elliott> Vorpal: And instantly I never trust network-exposed daemons you have written to run on any of my systems :P
21:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well I wouldn't write code like that :P
21:20:30 <elliott> can take over the machine.]]
21:20:42 <pikhq> fizzie: So, what, all your equipment is class II, and hence has no need for grounding?
21:20:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what I would do is use memcpy and get the range right
21:21:16 <elliott> Vorpal: C could be fine with buffer overflows if it had a better standard library.
21:21:26 <elliott> Vorpal: This is why djb uses very little libc in his programs...
21:21:45 <pikhq> fizzie: You all are either mad or a bit silly for adding grounding.
21:22:07 <elliott> with Sendmail running setuid.
21:22:07 <elliott> can take over the machine.]]
21:22:09 <pikhq> elliott: You guys, on the other hand: nicely done on not having ungrounded sockets.
21:22:31 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but you wouldn't believe the price we pay for it. Our plugs are *huge* and unwieldy.
21:22:44 <elliott> pikhq: (For no particular reason other than bad design.)
21:22:45 <Vorpal> elliott, a somewhat funny quote related to this (forgot from where): There are only two hard problems in Computer Science: graph search, naming things and off-by-one errors
21:23:06 <elliott> Took me a second to work that out; I was busy saying "don't you mean three"?
21:23:13 <pikhq> elliott: Clearly you should adopt IEC 60906-1 plugs.
21:23:26 <fizzie> pikhq: I don't really have a survey; but given how much people bring things from wherever, I would seriously doubt everything's class-II.
21:23:34 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/IEC-906-1-plug.svg
21:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, There are 10 types of people: Those who don't get Gray code, those who think this is a joke about base 2 and those who know Gray code.
21:24:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Then you must be insane. Things that are class-1 will hook their chassis to ground, so that any short will go to ground, tripping the circuit breaker or fuse. And not hurting anyone.
21:24:27 <elliott> pikhq: Those edges need rounding for comfort.
21:24:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you heard it before
21:24:42 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but I like it.
21:24:49 <pikhq> fizzie: Without grounding, what instead happens is 120/230V right to anyone who touches it.
21:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: The middle one should be last though.
21:25:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it wasn't the way I heard it
21:25:17 <Vorpal> elliott, the right one should be last in general
21:25:25 <fizzie> pikhq: Curiously enough, I don't think the country as a whole has any sort of higher-than-average electrocution rate.
21:25:27 <Vorpal> elliott, which is "those who know gray code"
21:25:33 <pikhq> elliott: It's a Europlug with a grounding pin. International standard for 230V/50Hz but only adopted by Brazil...
21:25:35 <elliott> Vorpal: But it spoils most of the joke by the middle one.
21:25:43 <pikhq> elliott: Which is on 127V/60Hz. Because fuck you.
21:25:58 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. You kind of give it away with the first one already
21:26:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but people might think it's just a "not X, X"/"X, not X" type of binary joke.
21:26:21 <elliott> Then the latter one makes them double take and get it.
21:26:36 <Vorpal> elliott, not if they know what gray code is
21:26:46 <pikhq> elliott: The standard for 120V/60Hz is in use by the US and Japan. Hooray.
21:26:49 <Vorpal> then they conclude that there will be 3 after the first one
21:27:02 <Vorpal> elliott, or are you not fluent in short gray code?
21:27:03 <pikhq> (... Because IEC just standardised what they were doing. XD)
21:27:20 <Vorpal> I admit I have to think if dealing with more than 3 digits of gray code.
21:27:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really, no. I know what it is though :P
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21:28:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, Kaurnaugh diagrams use gray code encoding of the variables when you have multiple on one side
21:29:26 <fizzie> pikhq: Anyway, the requirements *have* been for quite a while now sane, for any new installations: it's "just" the existing death-traps that could be a problem.
21:30:20 <pikhq> fizzie: Still, you guys are mad for making the grounded plugs fit into ungrounded sockets.
21:30:32 <elliott> Oh wait, http://thedjbway.b0llix.net/ is it.
21:30:56 <elliott> " A Unix system is comprised of many smaller, simple programs and utilities, each performing a specific task in a focused and well-defined way."
21:31:09 <elliott> "Unix was originally developed by AT&T/Bell Labs to run their huge network of telephone switches across the U.S."
21:31:38 <pikhq> ... Though, then again, the US does some crazy stuff sometimes. There's ungrounded-to-grounded plug adapters. You're supposed to attach it to a ground manually (either via screwing it onto a socket that has a grounded case, or via a ground wire, or whatever), but nobody does.
21:31:59 <elliott> "Unix was originally developed by Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie to run Spacewar!."
21:32:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, most of north europe use F style plugs
21:32:53 <Vorpal> at least Germany and further north
21:33:19 <fizzie> pikhq: Well, the old-style ungrounded outlets are just two holes with the right distance: we'd have had to adopt some sort of a third prong to make something that won't fit in there. (Or change the distance of pins, but then you couldn't plug in any of your old double-insulated class II type C europlug things into any new grounded outlets.
21:33:20 <pikhq> Fortunately, the ungrounded sockets have been banned since 1960, and most things older than that have needed the wiring renovated...
21:33:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I just wrote that.
21:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I was correcting, as you can see,
21:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> While in the UK we use our massive plugs, slightly larger than one's head.
21:33:39 <elliott> <elliott> "Unix was originally developed by AT&T/Bell Labs to run their huge network of telephone switches across the U.S."
21:33:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but the fact is old
21:33:52 <pikhq> fizzie: You could have just added a third hole in the socket.
21:33:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Duh. I was correcting that quoted stupidity.
21:34:01 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact that fact is as old as unix as a matter of fact
21:34:20 <pikhq> Rather than the weirdo clips on the side.
21:35:15 <pikhq> elliott: I think it telling that plug adapters to British plugs actually *contain the entire plug* and end up looking like a normal British plug.
21:35:26 <zzo38> I have now read the entire book of TeX: The Program. I want to implement it differently, using the C memory allocation for simpler, and omitting much useless stuff such as \outer. (This makes it isn't TeX, but something similar, so it can be called YeX instead; and using the GNU GPL instead of the TeX copyright)
21:35:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, those clips have some reason. IIRC related to making sure to have ground before the actual power is connected
21:36:04 <elliott> zzo38: malloc() isn't simple. static buffers are far simpler
21:36:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can do that with a longer middle prong.
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21:36:21 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, a three-prong plug would have worked. Still, type E (france, belgium, etc) did it so that the socket has a pin, and the plug has just the regular two pins and a hole: you can of course stick that in an ungrounded just-two-holes outlet too.
21:36:31 <elliott> zzo38: alloca() is simpler than malloc(), too: it is stored on the stack (so don't make allocation size too big), and requires no free()
21:36:38 <elliott> since returning from the function will eliminate the storage
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21:36:45 <Vorpal> <pikhq> elliott: I think it telling that plug adapters to British plugs actually *contain the entire plug* and end up looking like a normal British plug. <-- uh? Why is that telling?
21:36:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Euro_converter_plug2.jpg The things are fucking huge.
21:37:01 <elliott> zzo38: that allows you to do "char foo[N];" for runtime-calculated N, basically, with "char *foo = alloca(N)"
21:37:06 <zzo38> elliott: Using malloc() though, means using the computer memory instead of fixed the amount of memory at compile time.
21:37:20 <elliott> zzo38: calloc lets you use memory, too.
21:37:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: You can get the same sort of adapter for just about any other plug.
21:37:28 <elliott> zzo38: It is just stored on the stack.
21:37:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, weird way to design it
21:37:38 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, that's smaller than most British plugs.
21:37:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they do it that way
21:37:48 <pikhq> elliott: It still looks entirely normal.
21:37:58 <elliott> pikhq: No, it's seriously too small.
21:38:01 <elliott> I'd be suspicious of that.
21:38:33 <fizzie> pikhq: WP puts it pretty mildly using just the words "less safely": "Schuko sockets can accept two-pin unearthed type C plugs, namely CEE 7/16 and CEE 7/17. Less safely, schuko plugs can be inserted into many two-pin unearthed sockets and into some sockets with a different form of earth connection that will not mate with the earth contacts on the schuko plug (e.g., some variants of type K). Many such sockets also lack the cavity required to prevent users from t
21:38:33 <fizzie> ouching the pins whilst inserting the plug."
21:38:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: No idea why the plugs are gigantic.
21:38:46 <zzo38> elliott: In many things though, static allocation is better and stuff, so I can use static allocation, too. But some things would use dynamic allocation. (TeX has its own dynamic allocation in a statically allocated area) In some cases using things on stack is work, but some times global memory is needed instead.
21:38:57 <pikhq> fizzie: By "less safely" they of course mean "death trap".
21:39:05 <zzo38> (But if you can suggest a better way that still does these things, do so)
21:39:12 <elliott> zzo38: Well, "char *x = alloca(N);" is the same thing as "char x[N];", except that with the former, you can calculate N at runtime.
21:39:31 <elliott> zzo38: So you don't have to free() it or anything, it acts just like you wrote "char x[N];" except you can work out what N is while the program is running.
21:39:41 <fizzie> Anyway, for the record, mandated grounded outlets appeared here only in the beginning of 1990s, so it's quite a while until every place will have those. (Also mandated ground fault circuit interruptors.)
21:40:16 <zzo38> elliott: Thanks. That does help a bit, for some cases. (It should not work well for global variables though, that need many allocation and free)
21:40:41 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, indeed. Note that alloca isn't part of the official Unix standard, but it works everywhere I can think of.
21:40:58 <pikhq> I suspect at least part of reasoning for the gigantic plugs is that the plugs are supposed to have the fuse in them.
21:41:02 <Vorpal> this house has ground fault. And earthed in most rooms. Not in all. Was built in 1907. Renovated and extended in the 1960s.
21:41:12 <zzo38> elliott: Including Linux and MinGW?
21:41:13 <Vorpal> ground fault detection
21:41:31 <Vorpal> (and presumably protection)
21:41:31 <elliott> zzo38: Linux definitely (and BSDs too). MinGW, yes (unless MinGW is really weird), because gcc handles it.
21:41:50 <Vorpal> elliott, mingw is just gcc targeting win32 iirc
21:42:04 <elliott> zzo38: One thing to take note of is that if you pass alloca() too big a number -- such that the amount of stack used plus the number given is bigger than the maximum size of the stack -- you will get a stack overflow.
21:42:14 <elliott> zzo38: But you'd have to pass it a very big number.
21:42:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> zzo38: Well, "char *x = alloca(N);" is the same thing as "char x[N];", except that with the former, you can calculate N at runtime. <-- the latter works in C99
21:42:27 <zzo38> elliott: That is good, now it can work on BSD also, is good!
21:42:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Not for completely runtime N.
21:42:35 <fizzie> You can still do some pretty dubious things under the current rules when renovating old stuff; like install grounded outlets that have been grounded by connecting the grounding pins to the N wire; it's I guess reasonably safe, it'll blow a fuse if you short to ground, but still. If it's a new construction, you need to have separate N and PE wires from the outlets.
21:42:43 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC it's quite limited as to what you can put in there.
21:42:53 <elliott> Anyway I don't think zzo38 uses C99.
21:43:15 <fizzie> (Of course the alternative is that no-one'd bother installing grounded outlets when renovating, since no-one wants to redo all the wiring, and there's generally just two wires from the electricity distribution point to the outlets.)
21:43:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think you can say
21:43:27 <zzo38> elliott: I use the default mode of gcc which I think is the "GNU mode", which supports some but not all features of C99.
21:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do size_t t = f(y); char x[f(y)]; at least
21:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do size_t t = f(y); char x[t]; at least
21:43:59 <pikhq> fizzie: And here, you can use these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Cheater_plug_edited.jpg
21:44:12 <zzo38> (There are some features I do not like in C99, though, so I don't use those features.)
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21:44:27 <Vorpal> elliott, of course if f(y) doesn't return a positive integer you would have some issues
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21:46:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, apparently wiring ground to neutral actually is quite unsafe. It can actually cause shocks while the equipment is functioning normally.
21:46:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ground fault detection just means there's a box that will go all "oh, I see the power I'm pumping into the phase wire is not going back through the neutral, I guess it is going through some poor guy holding a faulty device instead; I think I'll cut it down"; and do that in a hundred milliseconds or so. It does mean that you won't have to play the part of the grounding wire yourself for more than a while, but that's not exactly pleasant either.
21:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know what it is
21:47:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, jordfelsbrytare in Swedish
21:47:40 <Vorpal> which is a lot more compact
21:51:13 <fizzie> pikhq: I guess you're referring to something like this happening:
21:51:16 <fizzie> "What are the trade-offs? It is possible that there will be an internal house wiring failure and then the ground on your device will be connected directly to neutral, which will be a bad thing. In this case, touching a case, or similar will be bad for you.
21:51:16 <fizzie> It is possible that there will be an internal failure with a device in use, which may shunt electricity to say a case. In this instance, if the ground is connected to neutral, then it will provide a short to ground at the breaker box (or more likely fuse panel in this case).
21:51:16 <fizzie> I expect the device in use such as a to fail more often than the neutral wire."
21:51:45 <fizzie> (The context is a outlet done with the ground-to-neutral thing.)
21:52:10 <zzo38> I do not need the features of C++ because I can use the feature of Enhanced CWEB to make computation at compile time (and can even make a book).
21:52:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: "vikavirtasuojakytkin"; our word is a bit longer.
21:52:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, and completely unpronounceable to me :P
21:52:56 <fizzie> A four-part compound word; fi:vika → en:fault, fi:virta → en:current, fi:suoja → en:protection, fi:kytkin → en:switch.
21:53:54 <elliott> zzo38: I just want you to know that I tried to re-implement something like your intl code in C and failed because C doesn't let me use a string literal as an array index.
21:54:07 <Vorpal> jord fel (s) brytare for us. The s is just needed to combine the words properly there. It is not really part of any of the words. translates to earth, error/fault, breaker respectively.
21:54:08 <elliott> It would have worked in compilers that use the same address if you mention the same literal twice!
21:54:55 <Vorpal> elliott, he relied on THAT?
21:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, from what I remember that is only true within a single translation unit
21:55:08 <elliott> Vorpal: No, zzo38 did it all at compile-time.
21:55:12 <elliott> I was trying to do it in plain C!
21:55:27 <elliott> char *foo[] = { ["foo"] = "bar" };
21:55:29 <pikhq> fizzie: What's actually safe to do is just use a GFCI (AKA RCD) outlet...
21:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, do it in C++ with templates!
21:55:37 <elliott> is apparently disallowed by new standards compliance checks in new gcc that are
21:55:44 <elliott> that's right, it COULD compile my code, it just refuses to
21:55:58 <pikhq> Which, while not providing a convenient ground, will at least result in shorts cutting off power.
21:56:05 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, it fails because C does not have that feature (the preprocessor is not powerful enough). Enhanced CWEB does have that feature (although using a string literal as the array index is not necessary, and it doesn't matter if "abc"=="abc"). (I do not know whether or not you can do these things in C++, though.)
21:56:11 <Vorpal> elliott, gcc doesn't put them all at the same place at -O0, and sometimes doesn't across translation units
21:57:02 <elliott> Vorpal: You mean "always doesn't", surely.
21:57:04 <zzo38> (Actually, C++ probably is unable to do it; can C++ output the needed extra files and everything like that at compile-time?)
21:57:19 <elliott> Vorpal: (G)Just Fucking Cuil It
21:57:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ground fault circuit interrupter.
21:57:26 <Vorpal> elliott, always where?
21:57:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Cuts power when there's a short across ground.
21:57:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "sometimes doesn't across translation units"
21:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean that sometimes constants end up as one copy in .rodata and sometimes as two
21:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems to depend on gcc version, compiler flags, and exact construct used
21:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, for example static const char foo[] = "..."; didn't combine for me once I know
21:58:54 <Ilari> OTOH, one doesn't commonly see IP0x or IP1x devices (any higher, and case prevents direct contact with internals without tools)...
21:59:11 <Vorpal> elliott, while static const char const * foo = "..."; did
21:59:58 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, that was a major issue because I was targeting an embedded system
22:00:08 <Vorpal> and well, that change made it fit :D
22:00:16 <Vorpal> it was 3 bytes to large without
22:00:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that would have been more work
22:01:02 <zzo38> elliott: Try to implement something like my intl stuff in plain C or C++, but I think you cannot do so! But try anyways if you want to, maybe you will figure out something else instead.
22:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, already existed code for it in C
22:01:25 <Vorpal> easier to interface that
22:01:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course you get the pleasure of implementing your own Forth in as little asm as you can first.
22:01:33 <Vorpal> than writing your own IO routines and so on
22:01:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a port, right?
22:02:06 -!- Decarabia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, some memory mapped registers
22:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that requires bit twiddling
22:02:31 <elliott> Vorpal: your memory needs covered.
22:02:42 -!- Decarabia has joined.
22:02:52 <elliott> Vorpal: there's a reason forth is common for embedded work :P
22:02:54 <zzo38> Also C@ and C! for single byte fetch/store
22:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, also it had a weird memory map
22:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, some addresses doubled as output registers and as ram depending on flags elsewhere :D
22:03:48 <zzo38> When I go to the religious education center, I use Forth to make a database system for them.
22:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, also I had to interface ROM code on it. Which had a C friendly calling convention
22:04:23 <fizzie> pikhq: Aren't those devices generally only going to trigger only after you've actually gotten a shock? If there's a floating ground and a RCD switch, it'll only trigger when there's actually some current flowing through an alternative path (i.e. you) to real ground. (Of course it's hopefully fast enough.) ... Well, I guess if someone builds that into an actual outlet, they're also going to possibly measure voltage to the ground pins too.
22:04:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Sounds like evil devices.
22:04:41 <Vorpal> elliott, can Lego be evil?
22:04:49 <Vorpal> (yes this is about RCX)
22:04:54 <elliott> Yes. (Ha ha, kiddie university.)
22:04:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not at university
22:05:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it was on my free time :P
22:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, that one made no sense
22:05:47 <Vorpal> I can't see why people think minecraft is similar to lego
22:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. Uh so what about TTD?
22:06:17 <Vorpal> elliott, TTD is same as minecraft which is same as lego!
22:06:20 <elliott> It isn't made out of uniformly-sized blocks.
22:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, nor is lego. Lego technic has lots of shapes
22:06:39 <Vorpal> and that is the lego I'm used to
22:06:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well even old lego has more than one shape
22:07:01 <elliott> Yes, but it's mostly blocks.
22:07:14 <Vorpal> there were 1x1, 1x2, 2x3, 4x2, 4x<longer> and baseplates
22:07:16 <elliott> Also Minecraft has Lego-style physics except idealised (no tipping over, etc.).
22:07:38 <elliott> The baseplate is just a LEGO->real world adapter :P
22:07:40 <Vorpal> elliott, eh perhaps :P
22:07:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, there were different heights too
22:08:08 <Vorpal> though not in the oldest version
22:08:11 <pikhq> fizzie: They're supposed to trigger within 25-40 milliseconds, which is well before it can fibrillate your heart.
22:08:49 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder who tests these systems.
22:08:56 <elliott> pikhq: "Okay... I've got my knife... I'm putting it in..."
22:09:06 <elliott> pikhq: "AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE!" "Now try licking it."
22:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott, seen the test button on them?
22:09:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: That just tests that they function according to design, not that the design itself is safe. :P
22:09:54 <elliott> pikhq: Can I run ideas for the filesystem/administration part of my services daemon past you?
22:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: Root directory is /sv. If you object, consider: Configuration gets its own directory, why not services?
22:10:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I read somewhere that computers leak minute amounts normally. So at large gaming convetions like dreamhack they have to use one ground fault detector per table rather than one for the building like is normally done
22:10:45 <elliott> pikhq: The service named "foo" is a directory called /sv/foo.
22:10:48 <Vorpal> because those minute amounts add up
22:11:00 <elliott> pikhq: /sv/foo/run is an executable that does the obvious. /sv/foo/needs is a directory; now:
22:11:22 <elliott> pikhq: Either (1) each entry in /sv/foo/needs is a file whose contents are irrelevant, and whose name is the depended-upon service;
22:11:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, it's that cable insulation leaks minute amounts normally.
22:11:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: A bit more so in 120V/60Hz.
22:11:36 <elliott> pikhq: or (2) each entry in /sv/foo/needs is a symlink that must point to /sv/bar, meaning it depends on the service bar.
22:11:39 <elliott> pikhq: Which do you think is nicer?
22:11:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which is why GFCIs in the US are supposed to be per-socket.
22:11:54 <pikhq> Because otherwise it trips a lot.
22:11:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. I was told this by someone at university who also work for dreamhack. So hm...
22:12:30 <pikhq> elliott: I like the symlink one.
22:13:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, in Sweden it is the norm to have one per building. At least for normal sized buildings. Perhaps multiple if you have huge buildings.
22:13:58 <Vorpal> I mean, this house has exactly one for example.
22:14:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw the size of UK plugs seems to be because they contain a fuse
22:14:30 <elliott> pikhq: Okay. What if the symlink points elsewhere? I mean, really, you shouldn't have a service outside /sv. But consider /sv/bar links to /some/other/dir. This is, of course, just fine. But then what if /sv/foo/needs/bar points to /some/other/dir? Having X point to Y, but then Z pointing to X does not behave the same as Z pointing to Y, is perverse.
22:14:35 <Vorpal> "Because typical British circuits (especially ring circuits) can deliver more current than many appliance power cords can safely handle, BS 1363 plugs are required to carry a cartridge fuse."
22:16:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's a per-house circuit breaker, a per-circuit circuit breaker, *and* a GFCI for each socket where it's likely to get wet in modern US installations.
22:16:35 <elliott> pikhq: Opinions? I think requiring a symlink is best, but I don't know whether to error out if it points to a non-/sv directory or just accept it and use that as the directory.
22:16:57 <elliott> pikhq: I think the former, since svmg won't know what service "bar" is if you do that and thus it won't be able to start it (I think), and sv(8) definitely won't be able to start/stop/etc. it.
22:17:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: In older ones, there's likely to be just fuses. And any to-code addition of grounded sockets will have GFCI sockets with "ungrounded" labelled on it.
22:17:48 <pikhq> elliott: Error out seems reasonable.
22:17:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, why labeled that?
22:18:16 <elliott> pikhq: Right. But still, that's an X -> Y, but (Z -> X) behaves differently to (Z -> Y) scenario. Weirds me out.
22:18:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: So people can know that the third prong is not actually a ground, but just used for the GFCI to detect a short to ground.
22:18:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, you allow that?
22:18:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: With a GFCI it's perfectly safe.
22:18:59 <Vorpal> then why doesn't everyone just use that?
22:19:11 <pikhq> Because it's nicer to actually have a ground.
22:19:27 <elliott> pikhq: Moving on, how about the way to tell svmg "don't respawn this service, thanks".
22:19:41 <elliott> pikhq: My idea -- which is perhaps a bit odd -- is that you'd chmod -x it for the user svmg is running at (probably root).
22:19:52 <elliott> pikhq: Because svmg would go "okay, if I'm not allowed to run this, I won't".
22:20:01 <elliott> pikhq: And because, well, "no(don't) execute".
22:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: What's odd about that? Seems entirely reasonable usage.
22:20:10 <elliott> pikhq: The file being /sv/foo/run, of course.
22:20:15 <pikhq> You chmod +x if you want it to be ran, and chmod -x if you don't want it to be ran.
22:20:24 <elliott> pikhq: It's odd because it just... seems odd. But okay, I too think it's a good idea.
22:20:37 <pikhq> Seems entirely natural to me.
22:20:56 <elliott> pikhq: sv(8), the management interface, has most of its UI shamelessly stolen from daemontools/runit.
22:21:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: It sure beats people doing shit like plugging a grounded plug into an ungrounded socket.
22:21:31 <pikhq> elliott: It works, doesn't it?
22:21:40 <elliott> pikhq: "sv d foo" (mnemonic: service down foo) is equivalent to "sv i foo; chmod 655 /sv/foo/run" (i for sigint; I might make this "int" to be a bit less confusing)
22:21:53 <elliott> pikhq: And "sv i foo" is equivalent, of course, to "kill -INT $(sv p foo)", where p = pid.
22:21:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, they shouldn't.
22:22:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, it says so in the manual
22:22:03 <elliott> pikhq: What $(sv p foo) does, I'm not sure.
22:22:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yup. Doesn't stop people being idiots.
22:22:14 <elliott> pikhq: Possibly, just spits out /sv/foo/pid.
22:22:30 <elliott> pikhq: Which svmg would create with the pid of "run" when it starts, and delete when it exists.
22:22:33 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: "sv d foo" (mnemonic: service down foo) is equivalent to "sv i foo; chmod 655 /sv/foo/run" (i for sigint; I might make this "int" to be a bit less confusing)
22:22:50 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and I'm going to go ahead and steal /sv/foo/finish, which runs after /sv/foo/run exits.
22:22:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, but your doesn't stop people using such converters for example. Or from replacing the fuse with a straight metal pin
22:23:02 <elliott> pikhq: So you can use "exec" in /sv/foo/run to get pids working, and still clean up after the fact.
22:23:25 <elliott> pikhq: Which leads only one aspect of design undecided: services that are essentially one service with a number changed. For instance. all your gettys (let's say 6).
22:23:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, there's only so much you can do if people are actually trying to kill themselves.
22:23:48 <elliott> pikhq: Here's what I was thinking: /sv/tty1/run looks at $0, fishes the number out of "/sv/ttyN/run", and starts a getty there.
22:23:50 <pikhq> (replacing a fuse with a straight metal pin? Oh dear God. I'm frightened.)
22:23:54 <elliott> pikhq: Then you symlink /sv/tty[23456] to /sv/tty1.
22:24:00 <elliott> pikhq: This, of course, works just fine, EXCEPT:
22:24:05 <elliott> pikhq: You can't stop one service without stopping all the others.
22:24:13 <elliott> pikhq: Since there's only one /sv/ttyN/run file, and it's /sv/tty1/run.
22:24:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, I heard of that for the main fuse for the house. To save on money having to replace it all the time. Yes horrible
22:24:38 <pikhq> elliott: /sv/ttyN/stop ?
22:24:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, I think it was in US too
22:24:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh dear God that's scary.
22:24:52 <elliott> pikhq: As I said /sv/tty[23456] are a symlink to /sv/tty1.
22:25:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but there are always idiots.
22:25:17 <pikhq> elliott: /sv/ttyN/stop could look at $0.
22:25:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, lets just hope that the fire doesn't spread
22:25:46 <elliott> pikhq: You... do realise that the purpose of this is that stopping a service is an automatic part of the tool?
22:25:53 <elliott> pikhq: And that stopping a service consists of killing the pid?
22:25:59 <elliott> pikhq: (as well as chmodding the run file)
22:26:05 <elliott> pikhq: And that there'd only be one /sv/ttyN/pid for all ttyN?
22:26:16 <elliott> pikhq: Because it's just /sv/tty1/pid?
22:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, some stuff wants more than just killing pid to shut down
22:27:05 <Vorpal> elliott, postgresql comes to mind.
22:27:07 <elliott> Vorpal: thus /sv/foo/finish
22:27:13 <elliott> Vorpal: (But those services are badly designed.)
22:27:30 <zzo38> Does Lilypond not produce DVI output? And it works with LaTeX, it won't work with Plain TeX?
22:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: svmg would run /sv/foo/finish every time /sv/foo/pid dies, though.
22:27:40 <pikhq> elliott: Perhaps you should just consider it a service to get the standard TTYs rather than getting a single TTY.
22:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, strongwan doesn't have a pid. It is just messing a lot with kernel. And perhaps a keying daemon
22:28:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Then the pid would point to whatever pid the starting shell script would be (which would end with a sleep-forever).
22:28:21 <elliott> Vorpal: When that gets killed -- with no effect, obviously -- /sv/strongswan/finish would be run.
22:28:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Which would then undo al of that.
22:28:30 <elliott> pikhq: That's ugly though. And what about when you run multiple foos for any other foo?
22:28:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. I don't think you could shoe-horn that into it.
22:28:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not? You can disable strongswan, no?
22:28:50 <elliott> pikhq: You could just symlink the {run,finish} files, but that'd be ugly.
22:28:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well it isn't standard. it's for ipsec
22:29:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it's controlling script has commands like stop and start and so on. So you can just put that as a traditional /etc/init.d/ file
22:29:12 <elliott> Vorpal: You can enable strongswan, yes?
22:29:17 <elliott> Vorpal: And you can disable strongswan, yes?
22:29:37 <elliott> Vorpal: /sv/strongswan/start consists of the commands to enable strongswan, followed by:
22:29:43 <elliott> while :; do sleep 99999; done
22:29:51 <elliott> Vorpal: /sv/strongswan/finish consists of the commands to disable strongswan.
22:30:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Erm. /sv/strongswan/run, not start.
22:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: svmg would make /sv/strongswan/pid the pid of the shell script that's sleeping forever. When that gets killed, svmg would run /sv/strongswan/finish.
22:30:33 <elliott> See? Works perfectly. No fuss at all.
22:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there are some stuff that doesn't fit into it easily. Stuff that only starts. fsck comes to mind. So does "set cpu-speed governor to ondemand"
22:30:45 <elliott> Hmm, I should include a command sleep-forever, or something.
22:30:49 <elliott> That does "while :; do sleep 99999; done".
22:30:56 <ais523> elliott: isn't a directory for services called /etc/init.d?
22:31:01 <elliott> Vorpal: fsck goes into your /etc/rc.start.
22:31:07 <elliott> ais523: no, that's a directory of scripts to control services
22:31:10 <Vorpal> elliott, how linear :P
22:31:18 <elliott> Vorpal: put an & after it :P
22:31:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to still order it properly though with regards to other stuff
22:31:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Setting cpu-speed governor too, although you *could* do it like you do strongswan, but it'd be a waste of a process.
22:32:02 <zzo38> That is the problem, how many things GNU Lilypond requirement for compiling (and for running, too), and yet it won't make proper DVI files.
22:32:02 <elliott> Vorpal: So put it in /etc/rc.start :P
22:32:09 <elliott> ais523: in my model, it's unneeded, as all services are controlled the same way and so there's one simple program to do it
22:32:25 <elliott> zzo38: Lilypond isn't LaTeX or TeX.
22:32:28 <Vorpal> elliott, still, this will not have a nice bootchart. Not when compared with upstart or systemd
22:32:32 <elliott> It's just similar to TeX in command syntax.
22:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Hehe, no, it will have a nicer bootchart.
22:32:51 <elliott> Vorpal: This will be a *lot* faster than most vother systems.
22:32:57 <zzo38> elliott: I know it is not LaTeX or TeX. But it says it can work with LaTeX.
22:33:02 <elliott> Vorpal: All it is is dependency-based service starting.
22:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well perhaps due to doing less
22:33:14 <zzo38> Even if it isn't, it should still produce DVI file. Because DVI file is a good format.
22:33:24 <elliott> Vorpal: It, literally, starts up services in optimal, concurrent dependency other.
22:33:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but shell script during boot is suboptimal. for rc.start
22:33:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Make it a C program. It's really irrelevant; I doubt the bootchart freaks even run fsck.
22:33:58 <zzo38> And it has a lot of requirements http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond-program/Requirements#Requirements
22:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: fsck whatever 2>&1 >>/var/log/fsck.log
22:34:35 <elliott> Vorpal: (Okay, if fsck fails you need to fix stuff.)
22:34:46 <elliott> zzo38: Those are just dependencies for compiling.
22:34:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there is stuff that can be done in parallel but you need to order them with respect to each other. such as fsck -> mount -> anything that needs that partition
22:34:59 <elliott> zzo38: See the running dependencies, they are much smaller.
22:35:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Well this is simple: you have a service that's like a runlevel.
22:35:26 <Vorpal> elliott, or network -> anything needing lo, vs. network -> anything needing actual internet connection
22:35:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Come up with a name for each "runlevel", make its dependencies be whatever services you want at that point, put fsck and the like and then wait-forever in its run script, don't have a finish script unless you need to.
22:35:42 <Vorpal> the former could be lots of stuff. The latter might be stuff like dyndns client
22:35:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Then have the next runlevel depend on that.
22:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: And have commands and services you need in that.
22:35:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you use runlevels!?
22:36:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I WAS SHOWING HOW YOU COULD EMBED THAT KIND OF ORDERING INTO THIS SYSTEM IN A MANNER *LIKE* RUNLEVELS
22:36:28 <zzo38> elliott: I did see the running dependencies too. I still think the running dependencies are also more than it should be.
22:37:17 <Vorpal> elliott, will you cache deps? To avoid reading lots of files at boot to figure out the deps. You could stat() to check that cache is up-to-date
22:37:32 <Vorpal> iirc gentoo did something like that.
22:37:44 <Vorpal> stat() is a lot faster than actually reading the files
22:37:55 <elliott> Vorpal: stat() also gives symlink destination.
22:38:01 <elliott> Vorpal: As all dependencies are symlinks... tada.
22:38:13 <elliott> Vorpal: So really, I have to list the /needs directory of each service, and stat() them.
22:38:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Which does not take long at all./
22:38:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well if you want to look at the actual symlink you might want readlink or such
22:38:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, I hardly think 5 second bootup vs 2 second bootup *matters*.
22:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Because (1) who boots that often? and (2) who is THAT impatient?
22:38:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I question the tradeoffs taken to super-optimise things really.
22:39:16 <elliott> Vorpal: If you really want a 2-second boot, write your own init as a C program doing system() a lot. You can even control the exact concurrency in it, too.
22:39:23 <elliott> (shells are TOO EXPENSIVE!)
22:39:30 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it does for embedded systems.
22:39:40 <elliott> Vorpal: What kind of embedded system uses an init system X_X
22:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, your dishwasher might! XD
22:40:10 <Vorpal> executing /etc/init.d/wash
22:40:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The day my dishwasher uses Linux is the day I give up on electricity.
22:40:23 <elliott> Thankfully appliance designers are saner than software developers.
22:40:31 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that netbsd toaster probably did
22:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, sure about that? Very often they make too few buttons do too many things
22:41:02 <Vorpal> like when hold down for several seconds
22:41:06 <Vorpal> it does something else
22:41:09 <elliott> Vorpal: "tend to be saner" got lost in my non-linear sentence writing style.
22:41:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I meant appliance internal designers.
22:41:34 <elliott> Who don't design the interface.
22:41:42 <Vorpal> elliott, that could be
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22:41:55 <Vorpal> elliott, actually: more buttons -> easier to use
22:42:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll get on making the thousand-button dishwasher.
22:42:14 <elliott> Vorpal: What you mean to say is too few buttons -> harder to use.
22:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, heard about optimising functions :P
22:42:36 <Vorpal> well you just moved way out the other direction
22:43:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway to be honest /etc/rc.start is not really that useful as it's basically a service.
22:43:45 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, I am considering extending my design slightly based on that and that ... swan thing.
22:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, my stock example of this are two HP printers. Inkjet yes. One is a simple printer. The other is a multi-function scanner/printer/copier. The plain printer has three buttons: power, arrow-symbol, paper-symbol. And 4 leds: power, X, paper symbol, ink symbol.
22:43:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Instead of /sv/foo/run, you can have /sv/foo/start.
22:44:06 <elliott> Vorpal: /sv/foo/pid will get "-1" in it or something.
22:44:06 <Vorpal> the multifunction one has a two line display and many buttons with texted labels
22:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: And /sv/foo/start can exit.
22:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: The service is assumed to never die.
22:44:26 <Vorpal> the multifunction one is *way* easier to figure out how to replace ink cartridge in
22:44:26 <elliott> Vorpal: The question is then how to kill it :)
22:44:38 <Vorpal> and figure out that it means paper jam
22:44:43 <elliott> Vorpal: People think removing shit = easy to use. This is nothing new.
22:44:52 <Vorpal> elliott, and they are wrong
22:45:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course. It just happens that a more usable design often tends to have less shit than the existing design.
22:45:25 <Vorpal> elliott, because one of them blinks different patterns for paper jam, out of black ink, out of coloured ink
22:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: But this is just because good design tends to be simple. And people think that "simpler" by a bad definition of simpler implies easier to use.
22:45:33 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:45:39 <elliott> This is because they have a severe brain deficiency in the logic lobe.
22:45:50 <Vorpal> the other says "Out of ink\n<scrolling text>Helpful description</scrolling text>"
22:46:18 <Vorpal> helpful description contains which cartridge and also order number
22:46:39 <Vorpal> iirc also "lift top cover then see instruction on label printed just inside
22:46:45 <elliott> (I presume Vorpal has seen Office Space.)
22:47:34 <Vorpal> elliott, what was PC LOAD LETTER now again?
22:47:55 <elliott> It actually means "give me letter-sized paper", where letter = one of the few american formats (other is legal)
22:48:03 <elliott> PC is just the legacy two-letter code for it when they could only show two letters.
22:48:08 <elliott> It was included in the longer display for no real reason.
22:48:13 <elliott> Vorpal: so tl;dr out of paper
22:48:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Now tell me you've seen Office Space.
22:48:35 <Vorpal> Office Space? Is that the weird thing in recent MS office?
22:48:46 <Vorpal> if not: I have no idea
22:49:02 <Vorpal> (not a bad guess you have to admit)
22:49:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's THE iconic tech-cubicle-job comedy. (Even though it involves very little cubicles really).
22:49:21 <elliott> Uhh... I can't describe it.
22:49:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I would be surprised if a single person on Slashdot had not seen it.
22:49:31 <Vorpal> elliott, youtube link?
22:49:46 <Vorpal> elliott, then I'll skip
22:50:03 * elliott wonders if Vorpal doesn't watch any films at all
22:50:16 <Vorpal> elliott, not recently anything longer than 20 minutes no
22:50:26 <poiuy_qwert> T-th-thats m-my stapler.. Swi... Swingling... M-my st-stapler
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22:54:15 <elliott> pikhq: Why isn't there a sleep-forever tool in Unix toolchests? Discuss.
22:54:30 <elliott> pikhq: I would call it "die", except that'd be like "exit".
22:55:32 <Ilari> To hold one end of pipe?
22:55:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:56:05 <elliott> Ilari: Sure. Or, e.g., to have a service process that actually just runs some things and then does nothing.
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22:56:58 <poiuy_qwert> lol leave my typos alone, their self-conscious :(
22:57:53 <pikhq> elliott: No good reason.
22:58:13 <pikhq> elliott: Sleeping forever is so obviously something that you would want to do.
22:58:43 <pikhq> It's so very natural when you've got interrupts.
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22:59:49 <pikhq> Hrm. Why is letter-sized paper used in Canada & Mexico? 8½x11 inches makes no sense at all in metric...
23:00:02 <pikhq> (215.9mm x 279.4mm)
23:01:09 <elliott> pikhq: I guess with getty you'd just link the run script and deal with it.
23:01:27 <elliott> pikhq: Although rather than peeking directly at $0, it should probably do ". $(dirname 0)/config" or something.
23:01:32 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
23:03:18 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. Since wait and friends don't have something like wait_select, seems I'll have a separate process for each server. (I like how this is just looking more and more like daemontools.)
23:03:47 <elliott> svmg: Monitor directory, make sure svrun is started for every directory, including new ones.
23:04:25 <elliott> svrun: Start ./run if we can execute it; put its pid in ./pid; run ./finish once it dies; repeat.
23:05:11 <elliott> pikhq: And of course sv: take commands, do shit.
23:08:10 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and rebooting is of course just -x'ing /sv for root (or something of that description?), SIGINTing everything, SIGKILLing everything, and telling the kernel about it.
23:18:58 * pikhq discovers that his post-processing filters for making bad video look not-terrible also make good video look a bit worse...
23:19:01 <elliott> pikhq: Now all you have to do is name the program that does "while true; do sleep 32000; done".
23:19:24 <elliott> pikhq: Brilliant! Excellent! And a total litigation magnet. Pick again :P
23:20:14 <elliott> pikhq: snore would be the side-effects of sleep :P
23:20:39 <pikhq> If only hibernate weren't already used.
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23:21:39 <elliott> pikhq: By the way, I would like to recommend http://rtomayko.github.com/ronn/ as a non-insane way to write man pages. It's based on Markdown.
23:21:49 <elliott> pikhq: (Code: https://github.com/rtomayko/ronn) Unfortunately it depends on Ruby.
23:22:28 <elliott> pikhq: Also gem(1), so, yeah, bad language-specific package manager.
23:23:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:23:03 <pikhq> Nice input, though.
23:23:10 <pikhq> Also, it produces nice HTML.
23:23:27 <elliott> pikhq: It does. It's also customisable if you really want to.
23:23:31 <elliott> pikhq: You can disable the TOC if it's fluff.
23:23:47 <elliott> Unfortunately it uses CSS justification, so no hyphenation or anything. Le sigh.
23:24:39 <pikhq> And even the raw input is quite readable.
23:24:56 <pikhq> Of course, that's because it's based on Markdown.
23:24:57 <elliott> Well, yeah, it's just markdown :P
23:25:25 <pikhq> AKA "plain text that you can get rich text out of"
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23:27:29 <Vorpal> elliott, download finished a while ago btw
23:27:37 <Vorpal> elliott, still uploading to you and other peers I see
23:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I have everything but the GNU and PORT files actually.
23:28:38 <Vorpal> took 2 hours 18 minutes
23:29:25 <Sgeo> When I was younger, I decided to extend odd/even to the rationals
23:30:00 <Sgeo> When reduced to simplest form, even/odd = even, odd/odd = odd, odd/even = third option which I called "hodd"
23:30:05 * Vorpal uses the decringer on elliott
23:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, I shouldn't really cringe. That he thought about mathematics is a good sign.
23:30:28 <Sgeo> half-odd. Better than "half-even"
23:31:05 <Vorpal> anyway, that system doesn't make a lot of sense
23:31:19 <Vorpal> why would even/odd be even, and odd/even be half-odd?
23:31:24 <Vorpal> and what about even/even?
23:31:34 <Sgeo> even/even -> something that isn't even/even
23:31:42 <elliott> Vorpal: even/even isn't simplest form.
23:31:49 <Vorpal> elliott, true. Just sleepy
23:32:04 <elliott> Hmm. What kind of structure are the even integers?
23:32:17 <Sgeo> Well, this system fit into the multiplication laws. odd * odd = odd
23:32:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so 1/2 was hodd. But 2/3 was even?
23:32:26 <Vorpal> that seems backwards to me
23:32:35 <Sgeo> What's hodd * even?
23:32:39 <Sgeo> You can't tell
23:32:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why that way around
23:32:58 <Sgeo> If you had 1/2 be even or something, then even * even = unpredictable
23:33:06 <Sgeo> Which violates even * even = even
23:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless even/even = even, in which case it still holds.
23:34:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: even * hodd = odd
23:34:38 <Vorpal> so it is inconsistent then
23:34:42 <coppro> goddamnned multiplicative functions
23:35:08 <Sgeo> (even * odd) / (odd * even) = even/even which isn't simplest form
23:35:20 <Sgeo> So I have no idea what Phantom_Hoover's on about
23:35:23 <coppro> admittedly, I didn't pay attention at all in class that week, because we had a piss-poor substitute lecturer
23:36:54 <Sgeo> Also, consider this:
23:37:00 <Sgeo> Naturals are simply somenumber/1
23:38:10 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, -x'ing /sv is totally unneeded. I think.
23:38:21 <elliott> pikhq: Surely if you kill an svrun process -- those are the ones run for each service -- it'll stop supervising that service?
23:38:29 <elliott> pikhq: But then, svmg should probably respawn it. Hm.
23:38:31 <Sgeo> So odd/1 needs to be odd, and even/1 needs to be even
23:39:48 <Sgeo> "hodd" is a weird term, since it's really more of an anti-even. It sucks evenness away
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23:42:48 <oklopol> Sgeo: you can't divide by even
23:43:17 <Sgeo> And predict the result, you mean?
23:43:30 <zzo38> What is a simple way to explain what "keywords" means in Magic Set Editor, so that I can explain the similar thing in TeXnicard?
23:43:40 <Sgeo> You can't even with just integers
23:43:50 <Sgeo> 4/4 is odd. 8/4 is even
23:43:59 <Sgeo> 3/4 is outside the scope of integers
23:44:40 <oklopol> coppro: what's wrong with multiplicative functions? aren't they like the sexiest ring ever
23:45:03 <oklopol> Sgeo: yeah, that's what i mean. you can't do it.
23:45:48 <Sgeo> I guess this is a significant problem? You also can't multiply hodd * even
23:45:58 <Sgeo> And predict the result
23:46:10 <Sgeo> Same thing, really
23:46:11 <oklopol> odd and even are just pet names for the elements of Z_2
23:46:20 <oklopol> it's a field, even is its zero element
23:47:04 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes. I think that can be a way of it working?
23:48:01 <zzo38> oklopol: That you can use "odd" and "even" for elements of Z_2 and then multiply by them. (You can't divide always if it is Z)
23:49:02 <oklopol> parity is a ring homomorphism from Z to Z_2
23:50:21 <Ilari> Hah... "This stuff is like a molotov cocktail for your coronary arteries!".
23:50:22 <zzo38> oklopol: I think it is now a better way to say it.
23:50:37 <zzo38> Ilari: What stuff is?
23:51:43 <Ilari> Some "heart healthy" margarine. Oh, that stuff contains "partially hydrogenated <some oil>", a.k.a. techno trans fats.
23:54:33 <Ilari> Heh... If some product around here has the "heart healthy" logo, I interpret it as "heart dangerous".
23:55:08 <oklopol> who cares about health tho
23:55:46 <oklopol> i'll probably live forever anyway
23:56:11 <pikhq> zzo38: Anything that is a form of keyword in Magic.
23:56:28 <pikhq> zzo38: For more details, read the hundred-odd page Comprehensive Rules.
23:56:37 <Ilari> (not to mention, those products likely taste like shit...)
23:56:43 <oklopol> trample, first strike etc?
23:56:53 <pikhq> oklopol: Those are examples of keywords, yes.
23:57:43 <pikhq> Ilari: Oh, margarine. Tastes like shit and... Tastes like shit.
23:57:44 <oklopol> Ilari: what's that logo in finnish, maybe i know it
23:57:56 <Ilari> oklopol: "Parempi valinta".
23:58:05 <oklopol> hmm. okay i'm not sure i know that.
23:58:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, real and pure butter ftw
23:58:26 <pikhq> Damned straight. Butter is delicious.
23:58:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, not healthy in too large doses either
23:59:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:59:19 <pikhq> Yes, there is such a thing as too much fat.
23:59:22 <Ilari> Yeah, everything is a poison with large enough dose... But just how much that would be for butter (likely: a shitton of it)...
23:59:53 <pikhq> And butter is nothing more than an emulsion of water in fat, so... Yeah.