< 1289433603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: gparted can't shrink jfs partitions. nothing can. < 1289433613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the deep mysteries of the universe < 1289433614 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed, but who needs that < 1289433631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyone who can't make perfect partition size estimates ahead of time? < 1289433642 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, just make a smaller one and grow as needed? < 1289433654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyone who sets up a single-OS machine and then wants to installer another OS? < 1289433677 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, look, my volume group has over 600 GB unallocated! < 1289433679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what if you expand it to do some disk-heavy work, then rm the data, and later you want to shrink it to install another OS? < 1289433683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, LVM rocks < 1289433686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can't < 1289433701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: btw, lvm won't be supported in the installer :P < 1289433702 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway you create a throw away partition for that < 1289433706 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1289433712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not so obvious... < 1289433712 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sudo lvcreate < 1289433721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, dude, I done it several times < 1289433721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't use LVM and nor do many others. < 1289433727 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, your own issue < 1289433740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Our own lack of a headache... < 1289433776 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is *easy*. Takes a few hours to learn < 1289433787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I understand it, it is just a headache. < 1289433794 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all you use is lvcreate, lvextend and lvremove < 1289433802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want nothing of it. Also, I do not appreciate its Linux-specificity at all. Linux vendor lockin FTL. < 1289433807 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, initial setup then you just need 3 commands < 1289433812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I understand it, it is just a headache. < 1289433812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want nothing of it. Also, I do not appreciate its Linux-specificity at all. Linux vendor lockin FTL. < 1289433843 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289433846 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1289433858 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well you could port it to other OSes < 1289433862 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fairly easy < 1289433866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hahaha < 1289433869 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it just uses the device mapper < 1289433873 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Would you justify using Microsoft software like that? < 1289433877 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of the LVM logic is user space < 1289433892 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well it is closed source, lvm is open < 1289433918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Software X is unacceptable because it only runs on platform Y. We don't want to lock ourselves into Y and may even look into Z in the future." "Well, you could just PORT THE FUCKING COMPLEX SOFTWARE." < 1289433933 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you need a basic "map these byte ranges from this partition and that partition into this pseudo drive" < 1289433941 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is all you need from the kernel for basic LVM stuff < 1289433948 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest is user space < 1289433957 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay there is the snapshot stuff too, but who uses that? < 1289433963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah -- I DOUBT the user space shit will compile on BSD. < 1289433963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Few months ago. < 1289433979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please explain to Vorpal why just because a piece of software is portable to another OS, does not mean it does not lock you in to a certain OS. < 1289433979 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? Perhaps < 1289433988 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: When I realised I had made my Gentoo root FS too small. < 1289433992 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm saying that porting it would be viable < 1289433992 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: JFS can grow. < 1289433996 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would be a nice project < 1289433997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It can't shrink, but it can grow. < 1289434011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, it's unshrinkable is all? < 1289434013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, okay. Hey, you should install FreeBSD. What's that, you can't? < 1289434013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honey, I Shrunk the Partition < 1289434013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Acceptable. < 1289434014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Indeed. < 1289434022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (And it's a rather fundamental issue, I gather; shrinking will never happen.) < 1289434026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But it's so awesome so fuck it, JFS. < 1289434050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Shrinking a partition basically occurs when: you want to install a new OS dual-boot. < 1289434055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well. If you are going to switch OS anyway (which in a production system would be a major PITA), you probably won't do so live on that system < 1289434060 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would migrate anyway < 1289434066 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so your argument is void < 1289434068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Desktop users. < 1289434073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And who would ever want to use anything other than Kitten, right? < 1289434094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ sudo jfs_mkfs /dev/sda2 < 1289434096 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if I make the Kitten partition too large, I could always destoy Kitten and its maker < 1289434097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1289434100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7611392 kilobytes total disk space. < 1289434103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: On a UNIX system, you're *unlikely* to want a dual boot with another UNIX system, and Windows *cannot* be installed after any other OSes. < 1289434105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice way to report it :P < 1289434110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Indeed! < 1289434116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Yes it can. You just need to reinstall the boot loader.) < 1289434117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1289434121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unlikely to want to do so retroäctively. < 1289434147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once tried to have a dual-boot with Freespire and Ubunt < 1289434149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu < 1289434165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broke the boot-loader somehow, couldn't get into Ubuntu < 1289434170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was stuck with Freespire < 1289434177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For about 3.5 months < 1289434195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Being capable of being ported but not actually *being* ported is no different from being impossible to port until you're willing to spend a gigantic swath of time on the porting. < 1289434241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *Inevitably*, a single-OS program is going to make a lot of assumptions about the underlying system. A lot of which nobody actually thinks about at all. < 1289434242 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I suspect that the user space would be fairly easy to port. And a device mapper equiv would be nice for lots of other stuff anyway. < 1289434251 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, good point < 1289434262 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :udev stuff likely < 1289434283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How likely are you to realise that you should avoid *fork* if you want it to ever run on Windows without pain and agony, for instance? < 1289434302 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1289434311 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but that is a windows bug < 1289434322 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1289434330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, porting is *insanely* difficult. < 1289434340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, when you try to leave the confines of UNIX. < 1289434344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh so comforting) < 1289434347 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm not suggesting that < 1289434352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm suggesting to a *bsd < 1289434354 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1289434372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That still takes quite some effort. < 1289434375 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289434405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's much much easier than leaving UNIX, but... You *do* realise why Autocrap was made, right? < 1289434428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/hanoisort.html < 1289434435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the time complexity is technically wrong < 1289434451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that programs could pretend to be portable to nongnu? < 1289434451 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't account for time to determine the correct solution, does it? < 1289434459 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pikhq) < 1289434459 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes, but thankfully device-mapper is quite a general concept. Sure it needs to be implemented. But compared to the full lvm2 it is fairly simple. You could skip everything but the basic model to begin with (that is, skip snapshots and such, which are compile time kernel options on linux). < 1289434465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Correct. < 1289434466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire lvm logic is in userspace < 1289434482 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure the API against the kernel would change. Probably some udev code need to be replaced < 1289434484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ... Waitwaitwait, porting stuff like *device-mapper*? < 1289434490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is deep fucking magic. No. < 1289434491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just no. < 1289434506 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm suggesting implementing a equivalent feature < 1289434523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you like a pony? < 1289434548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, basically it is after all this: [(device,start-offset,stop-offset), ...] -> fake-device < 1289434575 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is what device-mapper without snapshot stuff and so on is < 1289434589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal wins the oversimplification award of the day. < 1289434617 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hah. < 1289434619 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if you think it is easy you don't know the problem very well... this applies to all problems < 1289434633 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't think it is easy. But it think it is possible. < 1289434645 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, writing *any* kernel code is hard < 1289434653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The device mapper is awesome, but fuck trying to get that on any non-Linux OS. < 1289434671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd sooner implement LVM via FUSE. < 1289434675 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well fuck trying to get the snapshot stuff, the crypt target and so on yes < 1289434682 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I think 1+1 is easy < 1289434684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is actually... Entirely practical.) < 1289434693 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hah < 1289434708 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that would just mean writing a device mapper in user space targeting fuse! < 1289434719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: define 1 and + < 1289434730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Calculate it from ZFC. (you will need to start by defining 1 and +) < 1289434733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOOM ZFC < 1289434738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := not simple < 1289434742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or easy < 1289434752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ⁵ < 1289434759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = {{}} < 1289434768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yeah, not entirely useful without all the rest of the context) < 1289434769 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289434770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define {} < 1289434780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define =\ < 1289434784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, = < 1289434789 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I would presume {} is the empty set? < 1289434791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(okay now I'm just being an ass.) < 1289434798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := is a primitive concept < 1289434802 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed you are a donkey < 1289434808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the built in sense < 1289434835 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are negatives defined? < 1289434841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are rationals defined? Reals? < 1289434842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, I know, it's a notational thing, and well outside of the semantics of a formal system. < 1289434858 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: see wikipedia < 1289434864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or university... < 1289434884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The integers are defined by a mapping to the naturals, the rationals are defined as an ordered pair of two integers, the reals are FUCK YOU THATS WHAT. < 1289434915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEDEKIND CUTS FVUCXK YEHAAAAHHH < 1289434950 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"such that all" < 1289434953 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rational is Z*N not Z^2 pikhq < 1289434958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU Google < 1289434962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1289434968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Wikipedia for being slow < 1289434985 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what do you mean with that statement about the reals? < 1289435004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Harder to derive from memory. < 1289435007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oright. < 1289435009 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah :D < 1289435062 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why start with ZFC and not peano? < 1289435077 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we are looking at working with integers and so on < 1289435086 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289435092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC is significantly more general is all. < 1289435110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't do reals or anything in peano... < 1289435119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, good point < 1289435156 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are we assuming C? < 1289435173 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: register < 1289435186 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, are we assuming complex numbers? < 1289435201 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, wrong C < 1289435213 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, then what C are you talking about < 1289435224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C in ZFC < 1289435225 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The server at en.wikipedia.org is taking too long to respond. <-- wtf < 1289435231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, ooh < 1289435232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom of choice. < 1289435237 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes I know < 1289435247 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I was checking something else at wikipedia < 1289435249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember why that's included as an axiom. < 1289435315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, whatever. Just one choice of axioms. < 1289435341 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable159.218-202-24.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1289435378 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289435437 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puns pikhq  < 1289435451 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is measurement dealt with in non-integer dimensional space? < 1289435509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya_: Mmm? < 1289435555 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how can I define the location of something in a space where the number of dimensions is fractional or imaginary? < 1289435576 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/imaginary/irrational < 1289435655 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289435709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: axiom of choice is an axiom because it's truw < 1289435710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*true < 1289435741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, I'm just asking why it was chosen as an axiom in the ZFC axiomatic system. I know that it's a god-damned axiom. < 1289435751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's true because it's an axiom! < 1289435764 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Because we started with ZF and then we realised the Axiom of Choice was true. < 1289435776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nooot how axioms work. < 1289435781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (ZF~C is quite screwy, although as consistent as ZFC.) < 1289435783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it really is, though < 1289435795 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ~C has implications we don't like, there are no real objections to C < 1289435801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and a LOT of theorems are based on it < 1289435812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pick one that you know. good probability it relies on choice) < 1289435816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So, we take C as an axiom because our intuition suggests it *ought* to be true. Got it. < 1289435824 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: like all axioms. < 1289435830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what other reason is there for ch... what elliott said < 1289435831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. < 1289435855 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except when we dont'. < 1289435855 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289435869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(let's take ~C as an axiom!) < 1289435871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If only the Bible contained an axiomatic system -- a good proportion of the population wouldn't have to argue :P < 1289435886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(extra points for demonstration of the bible's inconsistency in that axiomatic system) < 1289435895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: :P < 1289435906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Bible's axiomatic system is complete! < 1289435918 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[And contains arithmatic, but that ruins the brevity of the joke] < 1289435929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "But WHY do we accept those axioms?" "'cuz God says so." "Oh. Okay then." < 1289435944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Infinite points for proving that the axiomatic system is inconsistent and thus contradicting the Bible's infallibility. < 1289435948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... GOD'S INFALLIBILITY < 1289435949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZOMG < 1289435981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And from that we demonstrate that God can produce a stone too heavy for him to lift, and thus by being omnipotent he isn't omnipotent. < 1289436014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think you're going to Hell for that. < 1289436043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if that's blaspheming the Holy Spirit < 1289436046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Man, the Bible should have come with a controversy-resolving appendix. < 1289436056 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does blaspheming "God" count as blaspheming the Holy Spirit? < 1289436060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Thou shalt not kill.[1] < 1289436064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 1. Killing for God counts as killing. < 1289436113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lie with another man abomination blah blah)[1] < 1289436116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Only kidding! < 1289436121 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289436139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALTERNATIVELY < 1289436146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. But lesbians are DEFINITELY okay. < 1289436246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If only God had left some notes in the margin. < 1289436260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why his link karma is increasing < 1289436270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thou shalt not kill. No, seriously. No killing at all, that's a total dick move." < 1289436274 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I checked the link I submitted, it was doing badly (and arguably rightfully so0 < 1289436297 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And verily, Jesus spoketh unto the men: "Additionally, thou'st polynomial time art not the same as thou'st polynomial time that be deterministic not." < 1289436358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It would be SO AWESOME if people became atheists because they thought P=NP after that. < 1289436400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: LMAO < 1289436418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Man. With a time machine you could troll people insanely well. < 1289436424 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Gospel of Elliott. < 1289436426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1289436452 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd go stab all the authors and yell "DO YOU KNOW WHAT CONSEQUENCES THIS WILL HAVE GODDAMMIT" < 1289436469 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1289436471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Theory: Most of the Bible is Bible fanfiction. < 1289436483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, XD < 1289436487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Later on, people didn't realise this, as it was stored in the same place, and combined them. < 1289436491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus the inconsistencies, bullshit, etc. < 1289436514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, who is then the Mary Sue? < 1289436526 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289436542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is essentially the only way to actually take the Bible in *any* way seriously without being completely retarded. < 1289436553 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Either God or Jesus or both. < 1289436563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus if they were a hippie, God if they were a fucking asshole. < 1289436564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Same, I'm sure, goes for most any other rather old religious body of work... < 1289436570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(God killed way too many people in the Bible.) < 1289436578 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1289436594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Isn't figuring out what parts of the Bible to believe too much damn work? Atheism is so much simpler... < 1289436597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for more modern religious works, it's fairly easy to just demonstrate that the author was retarded.) < 1289436625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of them are pretty similar to the Bible except N years later :P < 1289436626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see: Scientology) < 1289436637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: or possibly brilliant < 1289436645 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They only seem crazier because we've adopted so much Christianity in our culture. < 1289436649 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, Scientology I'll grant. < 1289436661 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only Buddhism is anything like a halfway sane religion IMO. < 1289436663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The space planes that look just like NASA ones is... a bit too much to even start to take seriously. < 1289436681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ahh, I see that a lot and, well, most people have an idealised perception of Buddhism that simply doesn't reflect modern practice. < 1289436694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true, not all branches of it are sane < 1289436696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but it's really really *really* easy to see that more modern religions are genuinely bullshit. Whereas older ones, the evidence of making it up kinda died. What with not being popular in a time when the only way to perpetuate something was to be popular enough to get copied over and over again. < 1289436698 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which I never claimed < 1289436698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Buddhists -- well, most western buddhists are just hippies, but non-western -- believe in gods, hell, etc. < 1289436699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost universally. < 1289436714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Sort of like how most of what Jesus said was pretty cool but nobody actually adheres to it. < 1289436738 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true for several branches indeed. < 1289436739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How are you still Christian? You have amazing powers of cognitive dissonance X-P < 1289436752 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, is pikhq christian? < 1289436767 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just.... *total mental reverse* < 1289436771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actually, I'm more along the point of "Jesus was a pretty cool dude, and why the hell do people even care about the rest of that shlock." < 1289436776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, that information is months and months old. < 1289436777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, lines. Not point. < 1289436783 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I had forgot < 1289436790 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I mean it might be outdated :P < 1289436800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay; you'd previously stated yourself to be Christian, which I kind of mentally interpret to include belief in supernatural things and all that. < 1289436807 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, even so... < 1289436838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm willing to accept a supernatural origin of the universe, but do I know? Not at all. < 1289436866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah the furthest I go speculating about the universe's origin is the mathematical universe hypothesis. < 1289436868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is nice. < 1289436875 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, about ZFC above. Why would *you* want ZFC? You are constructivist, right? < 1289436877 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tl;dr every self-consistent mathematical object exists) < 1289436885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not really :) < 1289436892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I was only ever half-serious about that. < 1289436894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would someone who has the idea "The idea of Jesus, whether or not he was real in any way, is a nice way to help unload some of my unhealthy guilt" be called? < 1289436897 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, huh... < 1289436915 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's a security blanket, dude. < 1289436929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I like Coq and the like which use constructivist logics, and I do have a sneaking suspicion that ZFC is inconsistent, and I *do* instinctively distrust non-constructive things... but really, naw. < 1289436943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Idiot? < 1289436947 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm < 1289436952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Delusional? < 1289436966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, and I am and always have been absolutely refusing to buy the common idea that a loving deity would actually send people to hell for doing things that he declares somehow "wrong". I mean, just *what the hell*. < 1289436990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah hell is just beyond bullshit < 1289436992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you buy the idea that a deity created everything, is personally involved in your life, and has the power to do that... < 1289437005 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1289437009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's a god that will punish me for not believing in him, fuck him. All the cool people will be in hell anyway. < 1289437011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why in the world would a benevolent being sentence anyone to *eternal pain and agony*? < 1289437022 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heaven might be bullshit too < 1289437037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I mean bullshit as in "a really terrible idea". < 1289437049 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly the Christian view of Heaven is incredibly naïve. < 1289437056 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah but it is the devil. Err wait. What happened to that omnipotence? < 1289437060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's white and pearly and awesome! Fuck you! < 1289437066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want someone to tell me "You're going to burn in hell, I really don't want you to" so I can tell them that they're nicer than God < 1289437076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd have to be genuinely malevolent to sentence people to eternal torment. < 1289437080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: OH THAT'LL LEARN THEM < 1289437090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Next you'll be questioning their epistemological justification. < 1289437092 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I believe it is like minecraft. Only real and without the lag. < 1289437101 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(heaven that is) < 1289437114 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So, like Prime Intellect. :P < 1289437119 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289437130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except you can do it automatically if you want. < 1289437133 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well I didn't actually mean like that, but you could interpret it that way. < 1289437159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Prime Intellect is basically an advanced real-life Minecraft + automation tool :P < 1289437171 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I read that stuff < 1289437188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's not very utopian. < 1289437191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "that stuff"? < 1289437192 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1289437196 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the text < 1289437196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called a novel :P < 1289437203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, you mean Creating Friendly AI? < 1289437205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or...what? < 1289437206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can buy the concept of a benevolent deity creating heaven. I can even just barely accept the idea of that same deity creating this shitty planet (you have to start by assuming he's not actually perfect, but just well-intentioned...). But *eternal pain and agony is not at all removed from taking a magnifying glass and burning ants to watch them squirm.* < 1289437207 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah. but not at 01:59 < 1289437214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I meant The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect. < 1289437218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so did I! < 1289437220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh < 1289437246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I DO THAT! ...I don't actually < 1289437261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: At least ant sentience is far from certain :P < 1289437290 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, an anthill as a collective might have a sentience < 1289437294 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1289437298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was a kid, I.. kind of stepped on ants :/ < 1289437301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: agreed. < 1289437323 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, not sure about ants, for bees it seems somewhat plausible. < 1289437332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Man eats a pound of bacon a day for a month and loses weight, lowers his blood pressure." < 1289437337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S LIKE A DREAM COME TRUE < 1289437373 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and it would be nice and fit a story. Thus probably just a wishful dream (wrt ants and bees) < 1289437392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Eh... collective sentience seems quite plausible to me. < 1289437418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think if you could somehow ask a really difficult question to everyone on the internet, every discussion forum, everything -- and make sure they listened -- you'd have it answered insanely quickly, insanely well. < 1289437419 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, perhaps. But you have to be careful to not just think so because it fits a mental story. < 1289437432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Of course the problem is that you can't; the Internet is probably sentient in some sense but you can't do anything with it. < 1289437437 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, enough to ask here. Takes a bit longer of course. < 1289437440 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But you see... glimpses of it, every now and then. < 1289437443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1289437485 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, either someone in the channel is an expert or knows someone who is. This was established some time ago. < 1289437497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel is rather awesome. < 1289437499 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot by who < 1289437502 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. < 1289437515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if we could just stop anyone else joining :P < 1289437517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: can a normal person actually buy the POSIX standard? < 1289437518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's even more cruel to believe in a God who sentences sinners to hell, *and has made a world whereby it is impossible for humans not to sin*. < 1289437533 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd just have to be a complete asshole to be that God. < 1289437544 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why would you need to? < 1289437549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/#svn/trunk/tools/apout THIS PORTABLE UNIX PROGRAM, WHEN GIVEN A PDP-11 EXECUTABLE, WILL EMULATE IT. < 1289437549 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you can get it for free < 1289437554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That < 1289437555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :includes < 1289437557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the filesystem. < 1289437560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will *see your filesystem*. < 1289437563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is commonly accepted Christian theology that all have sinned, and hence all are sentenced to hell.) < 1289437564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your actual filesystem. < 1289437566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do: < 1289437568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ /usr/local/bin/apout /work/unixv5/bin/ls -l < 1289437570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And get a directory listing. < 1289437575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A W E S O M E < 1289437576 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, heh < 1289437578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Unlses you REPENT < 1289437594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Unless < 1289437603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Calvinism has to be my favourite screwy theology. < 1289437616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The nice thing is that you can completely ignore it because your fate is predetermined. The not so nice thing is that you're probably fucked. < 1289437633 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1289437639 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway you need to either get POSIX by IEEE or by opengroup. The latter is free, gratis. Just need to register your email, wait a bit (iirc it was manual activation, so took about a day), then download the pdf < 1289437660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: is that the official one, or the in-development one you can find via google? < 1289437664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also, is it available as html? < 1289437680 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: IEEE isn't an option as I'm trying to boycott them :) < 1289437702 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no idea about html. The older one, 2001/SuSv is available as tarball of html though < 1289437706 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was < 1289437721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Older is fine, I just want to beat Microcosm's ass >:) < 1289437728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talkin' user-mode POSIX here. < 1289437729 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what? < 1289437731 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1289437739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./userspaceix < 1289437741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEEEEEP. Booting... < 1289437743 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well the issue with microcosm is supporting windows < 1289437747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1289437757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Y'know, the world would be a much better place if Christians were in any way like Christ. < 1289437757 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which means a VFS < 1289437758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./userspaceix --ctl < 1289437773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> device add block 8G ./some_file < 1289437774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> boot < 1289437776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff like that. < 1289437781 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289437784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In this case, it'd manage all its "devices" itself. < 1289437793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You'd just make various "devices" be parts of the host machine. < 1289437801 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the mtime/ctime/atime semantics < 1289437804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be just like a POSIX kernel running on bare hardware, except it's running on POSIX instead. < 1289437805 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget that < 1289437814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's a filesystem option, isn't it? < 1289437817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have misinterpreted you. < 1289437819 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah. < 1289437841 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1289437842 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you need to do something for it though < 1289437851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't understand. < 1289437896 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes it is not available on all FSes. But what do you return for those cases? Some junk value? < 1289437909 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, it'd depend on your inner system. < 1289437916 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, stat()s structure looks the way it does for *all* fses after all < 1289437918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Remember that in this case, some_file is treated like /dev/sda. < 1289437930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Except that I phrased it more generally; it'd be /dev/block1 or something on the inner system. < 1289437936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You'd partition it and do "mkfs" on it. < 1289437941 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ew < 1289437948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hey, it's user-mode POSIX. < 1289437952 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that drops the point of it < 1289437956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not user-mode-oh-but-we-use-bits-of-the-host-system POSIX. < 1289437962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's a proper POSIX kernel implemented in user space! < 1289437979 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm. < 1289437995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://limerickdb.com/?380 ;; someone please explain quantum mechanics in limericks < 1289438052 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1289438066 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, :D < 1289438080 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION diffracts elliott  < 1289438114 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so what do you think of string theory? < 1289438133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not true, unless it is! < 1289438146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and which do you suspect is more likely? < 1289438152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not really sure it is even vaguely falsifiable. They need to propose tests, stat. < 1289438163 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1289438169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until they do, I can't really comment, especially as I have no physics education of that level. < 1289438179 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does diffracted matter look like, actually? < 1289438190 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as far as I understand, it is kind of hard to come up with new tests though < 1289438201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But I'll say that while it doesn't seem particularly likely to me, I don't see any promising unifications of quantum mechanics and relativity, either. < 1289438209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, if their theory isn't falsifiable, they've already lost. < 1289438216 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true < 1289438229 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm maybe they *can't* be unified < 1289438235 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if it's falsifiable in theory but not in practice? < 1289438236 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there isn't a global single rule < 1289438256 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : What does diffracted matter look like, actually? <--- uh.... < 1289438257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what happens with -o gid,uid on a unix partition? < 1289438259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that stores users < 1289438261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and groups < 1289438274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd like to mount /dev/sda2 on /k to do kitten work, owned and writable by my user < 1289438275 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hopefully "unknown option" < 1289438277 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ignored < 1289438278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but have it save as files owned by root < 1289438279 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, not asking for a picture < 1289438281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i do that? :p < 1289438288 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, who knows then < 1289438298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ sudo mount -o uid=1000,gid=1000 /dev/sda2 /k < 1289438299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 'fraid it worked. < 1289438300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, mount it and chmod it? < 1289438308 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ouch < 1289438313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that'll save files as user 1000 / group 1000, though < 1289438318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I want them to be stored as 0 / 0 < 1289438319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. root < 1289438321 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like a computer-generated image of such a thing though < 1289438325 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh. Did that work? < 1289438335 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean, okay it mounted < 1289438338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it ran but it probably didn't do what i want < 1289438346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what are the semantics indeed < 1289438356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ echo hi >/k/x < 1289438356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ sudo umount /k < 1289438356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ sudo mount /dev/sda2 /k < 1289438356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ ls -l /k < 1289438356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 4 < 1289438357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 3 Nov 11 01:18 x < 1289438358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1289438372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: probably just makes sure /k is writable by me or something silly like that < 1289438376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The LHC is actually testing *a* string theory. < 1289438381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh? Which :P < 1289438383 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is the *sanest* thing to do < 1289438416 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1289438497 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289438545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Uh, actually. Fek, this is hard to understand. < 1289438570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's testing something to do with string theory that I postively do not understand at all. < 1289438608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And testing electroweakstrong unification. That I *do* understand. < 1289438666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the extra dimensions predicted by string theories. < 1289438681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Say, with Gentoo I can make it compile all packages with a statically-linked uClibc if I want, right? X-P < 1289438687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: /me is never going to use gentoo, don't worry) < 1289438698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not been supported for 5 years. < 1289438705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly. < 1289438710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What isn't? DOING THINGS YOUR OWN WAY? < 1289438757 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electroweakSTRONG unification? < 1289438763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've vaguely heard of electroweak < 1289438766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STRONG LIKE A MAN < 1289438793 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is this strong on the level of nucleons, or strong on the level of quarks and gluons? < 1289438813 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strong on the level of MEN. < 1289438814 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION guesses the latter < 1289438830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still has no idea what the weak force DOES, exactly < 1289438838 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1289438856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Electroweak unification is confirmed. < 1289438900 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still needs a handle on what the weak nuclear force is < 1289438906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particles changing themselves? < 1289438929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, some radioactive stff < 1289438931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff < 1289438965 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, only force affecting neutrinos, besides gravity < 1289438967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So what isn't supported? :p < 1289438968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's awesome < 1289438993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: uclibc. At all. < 1289439017 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neutron -> proton + electron < 1289439027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a simpler thing than I was expecting < 1289439042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But why does a conversion like that need messenger particles/ < 1289439049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because quantum. < 1289439058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a snark, it's the actual reasoning. < 1289439060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Gentoo: Freedom from choice! < 1289439088 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the page on Wikipedia has a nice diagram. The heavy thingy decays < 1289439120 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to learn all this stuff without formal schooling < 1289439163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum mechanics is both easier and harder than you expect. < 1289439180 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289439182 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum mechanics is /awesome/ < 1289439186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: CHANGE YOUR MAJOR TO PHYSICS! On second thoughts, DON'T. < 1289439189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Register for what < 1289439192 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also quantum information theory < 1289439195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ? < 1289439201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you said "elliott: register" < 1289439221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What are the odds of a physics undergrad covering all the awesome stuff in physics, rather than just classical mechanics and relativity? < 1289439227 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I've been somewhat offput from physics courses due to my HS physics being macrolevel stuff < 1289439239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Okay, I'll grant that there's some awesome stuff in relativity as well. < 1289439246 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure we didn't cover relativity < 1289439255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: thus "undergrad" < 1289439256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mass-energy equivalence, for instance, is pretty sweet. < 1289439278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "Undergrad". As in "an undergraduate physics program". < 1289439280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In elementary school, I used to fantasize about that < 1289439297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the units work! < 1289439302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I should probably mount kitten at /mnt/kitten, not /k, shouldn't I. < 1289439302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hooray, SI base units) < 1289439307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yuh. < 1289439310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I did? when? < 1289439311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And just set K=/mnt/kitten. < 1289439312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WHY YUH < 1289439315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: /k is AWESOME < 1289439330 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: mine certainly covers that stuff < 1289439331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why are we assuming C? < 1289439331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: register < 1289439331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo, are we assuming complex numbers? < 1289439331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal, wrong C < 1289439331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo, then what C are you talking about < 1289439331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The C in ZFC < 1289439331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feeds elliott a banana < 1289439333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The server at en.wikipedia.org is ta < 1289439334 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289439348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: p. sure comex != coppro < 1289439376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why the paste? < 1289439382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So, you go beyond classical and relativistic mechanics out into quantum? < 1289439394 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Quantum Mechanics 1 is a second-year course < 1289439399 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I fully intend on taking!) < 1289439414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... Dammit, now I think I'm in the wrong major. < 1289439439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there is any OpenCourseWare on quantum mechanics, and if it's decent < 1289439459 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Admittedly, my school has a lot of focus on quantum because of quantum computing < 1289439460 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh indeed < 1289439461 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes looking for the answer to the first part of that question < 1289439462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: see above < 1289439480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Just tell me nobody buys into the D-Wave crap. < 1289439489 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-Wave? < 1289439490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WHY SHOULDN'T I MOUNT IT AS /k :P < 1289439508 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because I'll keep feeding you bananas < 1289439508 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289439510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Either morons or unscrupulous cons that claim to have quantum computers far beyond the state of the art. < 1289439515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The media tends to believe them. < 1289439524 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also the Perimter Institute. That place is epic. < 1289439537 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289439560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: See, you have NO arguments against my awesome path. < 1289439594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "In the absence of evidence from D-Wave that their 16 qubits are coherent, scientists are understandably skeptical. If D-Wave’s qubits are not coherent, as many scientists suspect, their computer would be classical, not quantum. This would still be consistent with the results of the demo, since the decohering qubits would act like classical random bits, and the adiabatic computer would act like < 1289439594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a classical computer implementing simulated annealing, which would be quite fast for a small 16 bit Ising problem." etc. < 1289439604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Unless they mean "computers that rely on quantum mechanics to function", they're full of shit. (gotta love the tunnelling diode) < 1289439620 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: nope :P < 1289439634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[During this time, D-Wave also claimed that by the end of 2008 they would have a 128-qubit system, a claim that was widely doubted due to both the lack of evidence that they are capable of creating coherent qubits at all, and that in November 2007 they only had a 28-qubit system. However, on December 19, 2008, they announced a "128 qubit" chip.]] < 1289439651 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1289439656 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone gotten their hands on one of these? < 1289439668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Uhh, I think they gave a university department a computer. < 1289439670 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, avoid that university. < 1289439676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Systems#Criticism < 1289439688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely that university is trying it out to see if they can do anything interesting < 1289439702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is incompetent. < 1289439712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is almost impossible to tell whether the processors are in fact quantum really. < 1289439715 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128-qubit. < 1289439719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without seeing their manufacturing process. < 1289439720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Riiight. < 1289439720 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289439738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you. < 1289439740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Best part: [[ "Their claimed speedup over classical algorithms appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a paper my colleagues van Dam, Mosca and I wrote on “The power of adiabatic quantum computing”. That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand, and therefore D-Wave’s “quantum computer” even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be < 1289439740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell phone."]] < 1289439756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The worst part is that their blog: http://dwave.wordpress.com/ doesn't look strange or suspicious at all. < 1289439768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until you get to them offhandedly mentioning their 839572398472389472389 qubit computers. < 1289439779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1289439787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Note: Number is a JOKE. < 1289439794 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289439794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Vern Brownell is the founder of Egenera and was the CTO of Goldman Sachs for 11 years. His most important job to date, however, is his current one which is being CEO of D-Wave.]] < 1289439797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Low opinion of Goldman Sachs. < 1289439842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 74,5690 pebiqubits would be quite astounding. < 1289439848 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah :P < 1289439867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, 74,5690 pebibits would be awesome RAM. < 1289439885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, that figure is QUBIT DISK. < 1289439895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1289439899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAID that baby. < 1289439911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAID-1, I suppose. You can afford to halve the space. < 1289439979 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289440036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Linux From Scratch appears to assume you're root all the way through. Nice... < 1289440097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think that Kitten will start out as x86-64 only, but with a high likelihood of supporting i386, especially if disk space isn't a problem. < 1289440099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on the server) < 1289440133 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New UF? < 1289440154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://usu-shaft.com/2010/my-bishop-masturbation-leads-to-homosexuality/ That conversation log... uhh, wow @ Mormonism. < 1289440261 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I come from a sexual family, sorry to say. I got it from both parents." < 1289440278 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I shouldn't be laughing at this < 1289440284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you bet he got it. < 1289440337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders the possibility of societal pressures forcing two asexuals to get together and have a family < 1289440345 0 :aloril!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1289440353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please tell me what /media vs. /mnt is meant to mean. /media is external media and /mnt is internal hard drives? < 1289440358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Kitten will only have /mnt.) < 1289440368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You do realise that asexual people can still love? < 1289440381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And adopt? < 1289440401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Hell, if they don't have an aversion to sex and just don't enjoy it, they could easily make a baby the old fashioned way. < 1289440403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: /media is managed automatically. < 1289440412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is that the sole reason for its existence? < 1289440416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1289440422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do heterosexual men tend to fall in love with men? < 1289440425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well fuck that. < 1289440432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Asexual != aromantic. < 1289440453 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: For non-asexual people, love is generally quite strongly linked to sexual desire. < 1289440461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly not always. < 1289440465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For asexual people this is of course not true. < 1289440477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289440487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia cites http://www.asexuality.org/home/relationship.html and http://www.gayline.gen.nz/asexual.htm for asexual people having relationships. < 1289440529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Who thought atime was a good idea? < 1289440570 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly ponders < 1289440578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ponderation < 1289440592 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the same feeling that I had when I read Wicked < 1289440598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: People who think writing is awesome. < 1289440629 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wicked opened my eyes to the fact that "aspirituality" is in, some sense, an option. Doesn't mean I believed it because it's in a fiction book, but just.. the notion < 1289440640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sweet! Kitten's installer will put noatime everywhere. < 1289440647 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, the idea of sexuality and romantic feelings being disconnected is ... something I can relate with, I think < 1289440672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Note: Until my laziness ceases, Kitten's installer will be an xterm and a keyboard operated by an intelligent user reading the partitioning, package installation and bootloader set-up manual.) < 1289440679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until 12th grade or so, for me, there was always a very distinct ... difference between "wanting to see naked" and "having a crush on" < 1289440686 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is getting TMIy < 1289440699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU SAID THE WORD NAKED ZOMG < 1289440738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I can't believe the joking feline nickname has stuck X-P < 1289440828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Kitten, that is) < 1289440853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also wonders if it's possible to want to see nudity, but be ... I'm pretty certain it is possible, but I have no idea if that's the case with me < 1289440915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: But be asexual? < 1289440918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... makes basically no sense. < 1289440930 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but be uninterested in having sex itself < 1289440952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose one could be too scarred from some traumatic incident to have actual sexual contact, but still be privately sexual. < 1289440960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not a sexual preference, that's just trauma. < 1289440988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, the only metric I currently have to measure my interest is my imagination < 1289441036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You could just be rationalising a perceived inability to get laid :P < 1289441131 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my mind's eye, I'd love to cuddle with a girl. I'd love to see her naked. But actual sex... well, considering that I don't know what it's like.. (not that I really know what those other things are li... that's technically not true, but I'd prefer to pretend) < 1289441171 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds wrong. Gives a wrong impression < 1289441184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no trauma that I know of involving any physical contact < 1289441195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like "that I know of" < 1289441205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, my penis was ripped off when I was 3 -- I JUST FORGOT ABOUT IT." < 1289441211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: repressed memories are unscientific) < 1289441224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about forgotten memories? < 1289441234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess it's difficult to forget some things < 1289441246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you forget abuse, it either wasn't abuse or you have chronic amnesia. < 1289441334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think it is "relatively" common to shy away from actual sex due to some worry about harming the partner... < 1289441341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I'm pretty sure I've seen it. < 1289441378 0 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289441538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Btw, you should say Unix, not UNIX. < 1289441547 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX UNIX UNIX UNIX < 1289441559 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unIx < 1289441570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The original papers typeset it as "Unix", smallcapsed. UNIX is just the obnoxious trademark failure of a rendering :P < 1289441579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: SHUT UP I'M SPREADING THE WORD (and pikhq is far more annoyingly pedantic than I) < 1289441681 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EUNUCHS EUNUCHS EUNUCHS < 1289441726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: YOU GOT THE JOKE! < 1289441747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: |_||\|1>< < 1289441750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if you don't want me to use a big ol' static dev now is the time to convince me < 1289441762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Arguments against static dev: hotplugging. < 1289441775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Just have the devices you hotplug already there :P < 1289441786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, they won't *work* if you don't have the device plugged in, but... < 1289441812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what if you don't know what devices you might plug in? < 1289441843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, arguments for static dev: no magic, it just freaking works, and it's easy to understand. < 1289441852 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, if you have sd[abcdefg][0-9], that covers all USB drives and the like. < 1289441862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Admittedly that's a lot of files, but whatever. < 1289441894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't particularly *mind* udev from what I've seen, but it has a library, a daemon, an administration command... < 1289441908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can't think of any good arguments against static dev other than "well, it's a lot of inodes!". < 1289441923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You could also pull out Busybox's udev-alike. < 1289441930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh it has one? < 1289441931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I might just. < 1289441939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does. < 1289441945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (It's possible that I'll use BusyBox for coreutils, unless you link me to a decent coreutils that isn't Heirloom in three seconds.) < 1289441989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busybox is workable as a coreutils. Though make it so that replacing individual programs in it is easy, please? < 1289442022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ugh, if I can get away with it I'll make it build every program separately. < 1289442043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I guess you don't know of any alternatives, then. : < 1289442045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1289442082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Heirloom or porting or writing your own. < 1289442088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Incidentally, have you *seen* BusyBox? It has its own gzip/bzip2/xz implementation. Its own tar. Its own *dpkg*. < 1289442093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's insane! < 1289442112 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it still sucks less than many other things. < 1289442130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1289442136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you feel about Minix? < 1289442145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busybox includes dpkg? Why? < 1289442161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No. It includes its *own* mini version of dpkg. < 1289442171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What license is Minix again? < 1289442179 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it include its own mini version of dpkg? < 1289442191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minix3.org/license.html < 1289442194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Minix 3 is BSD. < 1289442195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it include its own mini version of rpm? < 1289442200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. < 1289442202 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1289442205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wrong. < 1289442206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: [[# Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.]] < 1289442213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Isn't that, y'know, an advertising clause? < 1289442232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't advertising clause the thing that caused issues with BSD licenses? < 1289442239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, that isn't an advertising clause. < 1289442247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. Use Google. < 1289442248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh? < 1289442271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so why would an advertising clause imply compatibility with a BSD license, is what I was asking < 1289442279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's in 2-clause BSD, BTW. < 1289442282 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incompatibility dammit < 1289442291 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289442291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: BSD4 is no longer used at all. < 1289442299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Clause 4 is the advertising clause. < 1289442310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And besides, it's a custom license whether it's compatible or not; it is not the BSD license. < 1289442318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: For *binary* redistributions? Really? < 1289442327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the ." < 1289442332 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is the advertising clause. < 1289442335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No. I don't see huge lists of BSD-licensed programs in Debian listed in any manual. < 1289442359 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, thank you for encouraging my laziness < 1289442373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's in the /usr/share/doc/... for each BSD-licensed program. < 1289442401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: LAWL, remind me not to use BSD2. < 1289442425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Something similar is also in the GPL. < 1289442427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well. I suppose it depends on the interpretation. < 1289442450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course the notice should be retained with source distributions. But I don't see why manuals for random software should have to have one of them for EVERY BIT OF BSD SOFTWARE USED. < 1289442472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, it appears that MINIX possesses a NetBSD coreutils that's not BSD-specific. < 1289442481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be worth a shot. < 1289442488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Patched? Or stock? < 1289442500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patched. < 1289442535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have managed to recognize bad fiction as bad1 < 1289442536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Bah, even the Fair License has that clause: < 1289442538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Usage of the works is permitted provided that this instrument is retained with the works, so that any entity that uses the works is notified of this instrument. < 1289442538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY.]] < 1289442538 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a miracle! < 1289442543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Which? < 1289442547 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then again, it's deliberately bad) < 1289442555 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://marigoldfarmer.tumblr.com/ [NSFWText] < 1289442602 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://questionablecontent.net/ < 1289442614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Where, exactly, is the NSFWness in the text? < 1289442618 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1289442634 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, now that I actually read a bit more.. I don't thiink there is < 1289442675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay, TODO: Try and build NetBSD coreutils. Then: Minix. < 1289442680 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So they totally had sex, and it was the most amazing sex in the history of wizarding or muggles or even Space Wizard" < 1289442687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ...that's not even profane.. < 1289442690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*profane. < 1289442697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Even though I don't really want NetBSD coreutils; cp(1) doesn't even have -a! < 1289442710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I see that < 1289442715 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I linked, I didn't < 1289442764 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1289442866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ make < 1289442866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makefile:8: *** missing separator. Stop. < 1289442868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: good start < 1289442876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.include < 1289442876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAWL < 1289442886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of the Makefiles are like that. < 1289442900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks out the full sources to try and find that < 1289442936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh, BSD Make. < 1289442943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes everything so much harder. < 1289442958 0 :TLUL!~TLUL@wikia/The-last-username-left JOIN :#esoteric < 1289443014 0 :TLUL!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1289443033 0 :TLUL!~TLUL@wikia/The-last-username-left JOIN :#esoteric < 1289443077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck that, src/ is huge. I'll get the files I need manually. < 1289443088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The BSD guys should really just reimplement gmake :P < 1289443120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I transfer a prop from Sgeo, who I can't recall has ever submitted a productive proposal]] --coppro < 1289443120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pwnt < 1289443140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: all my proposals have been productive!! i don't actually recall what i've proposed :P < 1289443167 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed some FINE stuff, didn't I! < 1289443167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U src/bin/test/TEST.csh < 1289443171 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which.. didn't really last < 1289443172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: csh. I'm so reassured. < 1289443231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Believe this: NetBSD echo(1) does not compile with stock gcc. Not joking. < 1289443238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1289443241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I need sys/cdefs.h. < 1289443271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why has everyone FORGOTTEN WHAT PORTABILITY IS. < 1289443306 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got four proposals adopted! < 1289443329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: elliott@dinky:~/nc/src/bin/echo$ cc -D'__COPYRIGHT(x)=' -D'__RCSID(x)=' echo.c -o echo < 1289443329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/ccaV89zK.o: In function `main': < 1289443329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo.c:(.text+0x1f): undefined reference to `setprogname' < 1289443370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: MINIX TIEM < 1289443420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls < 1289443420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boot etc kernel LICENSE man test < 1289443420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drivers include lib Makefile servers tools < 1289443422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you really believe all four of my successful proposals were unproductive/ < 1289443425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Err... where are you seeing their coreutils? < 1289443427 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is taking this a bit too seriously < 1289443433 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you define "productive"? < 1289443442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: haven't all your proposals been useless hardening against nonexistent threats < 1289443456 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, only 3 < 1289443461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of four. < 1289443465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the fourth? < 1289443476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: tools/ < 1289443480 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zenith.homelinux.net/assessor/list.php?author=Sgeo < 1289443492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/minix/src/tools$ ls < 1289443492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chrootmake.sh Makefile release revision < 1289443492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue.install mkboot release.sh tell_config < 1289443493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: orly. < 1289443500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... Or not. < 1289443507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I had it pulled up earlier. < 1289443513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's from the source tarball. did you look at svn? < 1289443522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here be dragons! Finding unexpected bugs and incompatabilities is "par for the course" when tracking current. By and large, you are on your own if anything goes wrong; although, you always can try to ask for help in the newsgroup. Good bug reports, however -- if it comes to that -- are very welcome. < 1289443523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAWL < 1289443526 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internment, Senator-Only Elections, and Indefinite Emergencies are the invasion ones < 1289443528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least coreutils will hopefully not change much < 1289443530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, it's in commands/ on their SVN. < 1289443535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Indefinite-length Emergencies < 1289443573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ svn --username anonymous checkout https://gforge.cs.vu.nl/svn/minix/trunk/src/commands < 1289443587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hope it doesn't depend on other files... < 1289443600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You didn't tell me it was a heap of commands not sorted into core vs. extra :P < 1289443606 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus, that's huge. < 1289443625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the prop doesn't transfer < 1289443631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cal.c seems relatively sane. < 1289443634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1289443640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROG= cal < 1289443640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAN= < 1289443640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.include < 1289443641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: osdifiosjgofgh < 1289443648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and cal.c doesn't compile < 1289443649 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's anothe Sgeo-situation with prop transfers < 1289443653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ??? < 1289443661 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro sent it to a-d < 1289443664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably intentional. < 1289443758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Busybox, then? < 1289443779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: bleh. the build system didn't even LET me split it out last time < 1289443785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might have missed something. < 1289443945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I KNOW! LET'S WRITE OUR OWN COREUTILS < 1289443968 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCELLENT < 1289443996 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: fffff < 1289444024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Work is underway on new options such as "make standalone" to build separate binaries for each applet, and a "libbb.so" to make the busybox common code available as a shared library. Neither is ready yet at the time of this writing.]] < 1289444026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares about ready! < 1289444077 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I want a busy beaver < 1289444093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work. < 1289444112 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: uncomputably so? < 1289444120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work. < 1289444124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITS FUNNY BECAUSE INNUENDO < 1289444139 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :258| Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work. < 1289444283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Well, I certainly don't know how much wood a woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood. < 1289444310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: more than wood^chuck? < 1289444311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: And I extrapolate this same lack of knowledge to beavers. < 1289444325 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is it over 9000? < 1289444355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, standalone = not implemented at all :P < 1289444395 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how have I not submitted productive proposals? < 1289444410 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: they were concerned about some random invasion fears < 1289444423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, only three of them! < 1289444435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Boot loader: http://busybox.net/~vda/mboot/README.txt :P < 1289444449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i never knew Sgeo was so funny when he was offended < 1289444457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tempted to transfer a prop to coppro < 1289444488 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(D) < 1289444541 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/too obscure for #esoteric < 1289444610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know how in Pharo, items on the menus have the letter that you alt-press to do something? < 1289444641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1289444644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Smalltalk, < 1289444670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't imagine that all Smalltalk systems have the same UI conventions < 1289444680 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine Pharo and Squeak being similar, ofc < 1289444710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Squeak has heritage directly from Smalltalk-80. < 1289444720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its UI is -- minus the kiddy colours and the like -- Smalltalk's canonical UI. < 1289444738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: (Squeak is, literally, Smalltalk-80, thirty years on. Same codebase.) < 1289444915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should totally name kitten releases after kitty emoticons < 1289444922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 ;3 :D < 1289444926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;< < 1289444928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> < 1289444946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, rolling release :( < 1289445048 0 :TLUL!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :TLUL|afk < 1289445130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Dynamically-linked BusyBox with EVERYTHING except SELinux turned on: < 1289445130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls -lh busybox < 1289445130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 1.5M Nov 11 03:11 busybox < 1289445137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unstripped it's 3.5 megs. < 1289445146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Compare to size of gnu equivalents, weep. < 1289445161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dpkg and rpm in one binary -- is this legal? Moral?) < 1289445188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Look at my god damn commands: http://sprunge.us/XcBf < 1289445198 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289445198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion would be awesome < 1289445205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then again, I have atrocious taste < 1289445255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Opinion of what? < 1289445271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dpkg and rpm in one... Oh! < 1289445277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1289445278 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You meant as in busybox < 1289445279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You turned on *everything* and got a 1.5M busybox. < 1289445282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Right. < 1289445294 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant you were making a file that was both .deb and .rpm < 1289445295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moral of the story, Busybox is amazing. < 1289445302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Technically, I disabled SELinux. Also, I had to manually link it dynamically, since it tried to do it statically and libpam wanted dlopen and friends. < 1289445307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering "How is it possible, but if it's possible, it's awesome!" < 1289445313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: heh < 1289445321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a Linux distro in and of itself. < 1289445329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If you linked that statically to even uClibc, that thing would be a few megabytes more, I'd bet. < 1289445334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, libc.a isn't very big, even with uClibc. < 1289445364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also, indeed. All you need is a filesystem with /linux, /busybox and a link /sh to /busybox. < 1289445376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You could even link /init to /busybox instead if you wanted something BLOATED like that. < 1289445381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (But you'd need more files, I think.) < 1289445404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Note that a few of the options in busybox may be to *disable* some stuff :P < 1289445420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Add a cc and a make and you have a build chain. < 1289445422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hey, I think that allyesconfig would enable the "tools look for busybox before execing", meaning that /sh would actually work with all the tools, you wouldn't have to type "./busybox". < 1289445429 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Although... it looks at /proc to find itself. < 1289445432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WHATEVER. < 1289445480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even has wget. < 1289445490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And telnet. < 1289445498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could IRC with that sucker. < 1289445619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And nc. < 1289445635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Although it's an evil, smelly, evil non-Hobbit nc. < 1289445647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: In 2040 I will still be using Hobbit netcat. < 1289445660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, be 45. < 1289445788 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think netcat is a very good program to include in any system that has internet access, as well as ping and network configuration display. These are the minimum, although an FTP client and a very simple email client should be included too. < 1289445822 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hey. I should see what toolchain Mastodon uses. < 1289445862 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can easily use netcat, together with I/O redirection/pipe to download a file from Gopher protocol as well as headerless HTTP.) < 1289446123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ...headerless HTTP? You mean just the query line? < 1289446125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTTP 0.9 lawl < 1289446260 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes I mean just the query line. Headerless HTTP is accessed by omitting the version from the request. < 1289446297 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That doesn't work for e.g. google at the very least./ < 1289446356 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Google it still produces a header on output. For my server (Apache) it produces no header on output if that is done. < 1289446442 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have seen some servers that wait for a header anyways. < 1289446445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: for google it just returns a redirect loop < 1289446479 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is all wrong; if no version number is given, it should wait for no header and output no header. At least, this is my opinion of what it should do. < 1289446520 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Now; it isn't quite as important for Google; the Google homepage is useless to download outside of a web-browser anyways) < 1289446526 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers cleaning up Wikipedia vandalism that claimed.. something < 1289446549 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1289446574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, Wikipedia's sucking today < 1289446743 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you have software packages on there, you ought to support headerless HTTP. (Another alternative is to set up a Gopher server, that is an even simpler protocol than headerless HTTP) < 1289446746 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear browser, stop fucking up < 1289446830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.orrg/w/index.php?title=List_of_HTTP_status_codes&oldid=200015439 < 1289446959 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did you write "orrg" instead of "org"? < 1289446989 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I typoed < 1289446998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ...you retyped it? < 1289447000 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was using my phone's browser instead of my laptop's browser < 1289447001 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1289447039 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My laptop was acting crappily < 1289447079 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: maybe i'll just use plan9port :) < 1289447083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: put linux on it < 1289447199 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289447372 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289447825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tempting. < 1289447943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Mmm, HTTP 0.9. < 1289448089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Now add virtual hosts. < 1289448091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything breaks. < 1289448190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that a 1.1 thing? So surely, it wouldn;t work with 1.0 either < 1289448215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also nearly mandatory < 1289448332 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers wondering as a kid why is it that putting the IP address as the host of the URL wasn't the same as putting the domain name in some circumstances < 1289448433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there is a multibyte patch for st but it uses wchat :-P < 1289448567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Screw virtual hosts. < 1289448572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: IPv6 and virtual machines. < 1289448579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lolno < 1289448590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why not? < 1289448605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i don't even have an ipv6 link :) < 1289448617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lame! < 1289449175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: exec >&- 2>&- <&- < 1289449238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o < 1289449349 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is Ruby strongly or weakly typed? I'm arguing strongly < 1289449369 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess weak < 1289449379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Strongly with a handful of unimportant type coercions. < 1289449391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, not weak < 1289449406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: of course there are so many different aspects < 1289449409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strong vs. weak, dynamics vs. static < 1289449412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic < 1289449415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby is dynamically strongly typed < 1289449426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if Ruby was weakly typed < 1289449427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do < 1289449431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((Integer)"hello") + 1 < 1289449475 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Strongly typed is orthogonal from statically typed < 1289449475 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : eh < 1289449475 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's a bit of a religious debate ;) < 1289449493 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not necessarily < 1289449495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(He was arguing that duck typing meant that Ruby is weakly typed) < 1289449509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strong is definitely orghogonal from static < 1289449515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you argue with people like that Sgeo :) < 1289449525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i should write down my definitions sometime, i don't even remember them myself < 1289449532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until right about then, he had my respect when it comes to programming < 1289449680 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) he's an idiot but (2) your respect is too easily gained and too easily broken < 1289449709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ^ This. So much. < 1289449776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes in acme i move the columns around just to laugh at how nice it is < 1289449777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i crazy? < 1289449814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but not for that. < 1289449837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i love pointer warping. am i crazy? < 1289449879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is? < 1289449898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Software moving the pointer to a location of its choosing without user action. < 1289449922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: For instance, if you move a column in acme, acme warps the pointer to the layout square. On the other hand, you just grabbed and dragged the layout square, so this isn't disorienting. < 1289449942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is 2^sizeof(void*) the maximum amount of heap in bytes a C program can use? < 1289449953 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait no that makes no sense < 1289449956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is either a violation of law of least surprise or absolutely amazing. < 1289449963 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1289449963 0 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1289449966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 2^(8*sizeof(void *)) < 1289449974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: although, I think T * can be differently-sized to void *, technically < 1289449976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(can they? not sure.) < 1289449985 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waiwait < 1289449990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, it has been... abused in the past. (Old X programs used to warp programs to newly created dialogues.) < 1289449998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Also, the above is the maximum amount of memory space in units of char that a C program can use. < 1289450004 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is sizeof(void*)?... Oh, for some reason, I had it in my mind as 1 < 1289450005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That actually includes the maximum stack, too. < 1289450010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but they must all be castable to void*. < 1289450015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's something like 4, isn't it? < 1289450015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int x; /* &x is an (int *) */ < 1289450018 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally < 1289450019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah. < 1289450029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 8 on 64-bit < 1289450043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if sizeof(x) = y, then char foo[y] can store exactly one x. basically. < 1289450051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The only restriction is that it's a multiple of char. < 1289450054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(void *) = 8 on 64-bit architectures because 64 bits = 8 bytes < 1289450066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, a finite natural multiple of char. < 1289450075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that can fit into a size_t < 1289450104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, the only restriction is that it's a multiple of char that can fit into a size_t. < 1289450130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a size_t must have a finite maximum and be integral. < 1289450141 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *natural..ic. < 1289450155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure they actually *forbid* signed size_t. < 1289450162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They do. < 1289450166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then natural. < 1289450174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That is why the signed ssize_t exists on some systems. < 1289450185 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "The value of the result is implementation-defined, and its type (an unsigned integer type) < 1289450186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is size_t, defined in (and other headers)." --C99 < 1289450191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check C89. < 1289450200 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That is why the signed ssize_t exists on some systems." < 1289450203 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what use? < 1289450211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Who knows? < 1289450238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Say... I think standard C without variable arguments might be TC. < 1289450244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, wait, no. With variable arguments. < 1289450257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Does anything say that stack frames must be addressable? < 1289450268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Store values by *recursing*. < 1289450271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: All the values on the stack must be addressable. < 1289450277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: To get the value on the top of the stack, return NEXT_FUNC; < 1289450286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The function underneath will then call NEXT_FUNC(0) or NEXT_FUNC(1). < 1289450297 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, but if you don't use any variables in these functions... < 1289450300 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was also my idea before perhaps C can be Turing-complete if you are not allowed to convert pointers to numbers. < 1289450312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then I think it would obey C to have no part of these stack frames be addressable. < 1289450317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I don't know if return addresses have to be addressable in straight-up ISO C. < 1289450336 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though it is necessary in POSIX) < 1289450362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: POSIX is TC I think because of the filesystem functions. < 1289450373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Although, wait, no, char * has necessarily limited range. < 1289450375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So *maybe*. < 1289450387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: POSIX has bounded file sizes. < 1289450395 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1289450405 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I just made a fool of myself < 1289450406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : C isn't turing-complet < 1289450406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : complete < 1289450409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And bounded file names. < 1289450411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [stuff] < 1289450415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And bounded directory tree depth. < 1289450418 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so? you can push things out of memory and load new things < 1289450418 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's your infinite tape < 1289450436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... Waait. Chroot. < 1289450438 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: fail. < 1289450441 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's TC because of chroot. < 1289450444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Copy this line to him: < 1289450471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, but fopen() and friends take a (char *) which necessarily has limited range, thus providing finite page-out space. < 1289450471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can chroot infinitely. < 1289450484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: also, where the hell is this? < 1289450595 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But it was my idea you can make a C variant which is Turing-complete by making it that pointers and numbers are not interchangeable with each other. If you do this, it should be possible to have infinite memory? Another way is to use standard C but add two CPU instructions, next bank and previous bank. < 1289450621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: This would, I presume, make it so that pointers can be unbounded. < 1289450637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Victory. < 1289450639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you physically do unbounded pointers? < 1289450651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: With a Turing machine. < 1289450682 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Of course Turing-complete computers are actually impossible, but you can make a programming language specifications which makes a programming language with is Turing-complete. < 1289450700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I am now attempting to write some C code to simulate some sort of infinite memory with the call stack. < 1289450703 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, the layout of the pointer in memory < 1289450727 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bignum obvi.. well, I just answered my question < 1289450734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't know how bignums work >.> < 1289450757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Uhh, memory. < 1289450781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Consider a list of base 10 digits, that you don't know how long it is. Let's say that "10" means "there are at least two more values". < 1289450792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Let's start by assuming there's one value. < 1289450802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Now obviously 0-9 are base 9 values now. < 1289450812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So 10 1 2 = whatever "12" is in base 9. < 1289450818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 10 10 1 2 3 = "123" in base 9. < 1289450823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 10 1 10 2 3 = the same. < 1289450827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Bignums are like this except way, way smarter. < 1289450954 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Gah, just realised that you basically need arguments to do it. < 1289450971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Feel free to write an infinite tape/stack/whatever with argumentless, variableless recursing functions :P < 1289450976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Globals are okay of course. < 1289451181 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the log file it says GraphicsMagick can use MIFF files. If it can, then GF-Magick should be able to work with GraphicsMagick. There are four ways to do so: [1] Modify "gfmagick.w" to support GraphicsMagick. [2] Make a ".ch" file for supporting GraphicsMagick. < 1289451216 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3] Add 'special "convert"' immediately after 'def init_settings =' in the "gfmagick.mf" file. [4] Write a weapper script that calls GraphicsMagick. < 1289451547 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which if these four ways do you prefer? < 1289451579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any way. < 1289451609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's irritating that my main problems with getting the Kitten toolchain to work are all because of GNU lock-in. < 1289451617 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 GNU lock-in < 1289451671 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: you're either (1) being sarcastic (2) about to be be repeatedly beaten over the head by me < 1289451673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: choose wisely < 1289451686 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some of the GNU lock-in features are pretty nice features :p < 1289451688 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like linker scripts < 1289451706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he can make an argument that Haskell isn't strongly typed < 1289451707 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't get anything close to the power of those on OS X < 1289451707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: in this case, the lock-in features are gcc being a bitch with uclibc < 1289451717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: OH YEAH I'M TOTALLY SUGGESTING OS X AS A REPLACEMENT < 1289451770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: note: i am not suggesting os x as a replacement < 1289451774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is statically-typed. However, data carries no type information with it. Without the static check, data could be misinterpreted as the wrong type < 1289451780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: fail < 1289451801 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then... windows? < 1289451807 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows is worse < 1289451809 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What problems are you having with gcc and uclibc? < 1289451815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: anyway i don't care about gnucrap as long as programs don't *purport* to be portable and then not work on anything that isn't gnu'd up. but i *do* hate how, starting from an existing, gnuified toolchain, it is very difficult to get anything else due to rampant incompatibility < 1289451816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: hahahaha < 1289451818 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang? that's basically OS X < 1289451824 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: ...? you're crazy < 1289451828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :os != toolchain != compiler < 1289451840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"clang is sooo much better than windows, it runs all my games" < 1289451845 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is only wondering what you prefer to GNU lock-in < 1289451867 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: well in this case it's irrelevant, i'm not objecting to gnu features, i'm objecting to the difficulty in using gcc to bootstrap a non-gnu toolchain < 1289451873 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, pcc/uClibc < 1289451893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: uClibc-linked executables segfault. works with the gcc that buildroot builds, not sure why at all. < 1289452049 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION emails DKS asking about Symbolics shipping < 1289452083 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1289452128 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants an imperative language with a Haskell-like type system < 1289452169 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or actually < 1289452174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should relearn Scala < 1289452190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that language is Haskell < 1289452215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put do before every function, and in "if" clauses. also, if you do an IO operation that gives a result, you must assign it to a variable before using it in other expressions < 1289452245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you still have that OpenGenera on Linux tutorial? < 1289452261 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to make a implementation of C standard library that uses assembly language codes and only compiles in the functions that are used by your program? < 1289452297 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should sleep soon < 1289452315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The latter is easily accomplishable, and is done by most C libraries designed for static linking. You simply compile each function (or small group of functions) into its own .o object file, and then pack them all into a resulting .a. < 1289452328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: C libraries not designed for this will often have very big .o files, and thus programs will pull in symbols they do not need. < 1289452336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The former would be possible but pointless. < 1289452439 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is sensible to make at least some of the C library functions written in assembly language. You can have them written in C as well, for using on other computers. And some functions might be written only in C, although someone can write them in assembly language too later on if they want to. < 1289452520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Why? < 1289452638 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the simple C library functions can be written using whatever instructions are available on the processor, if needed you can also write them separately depending on the optimization setting of the program you are compiling. < 1289452686 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some group of functions might go together so you would then write them in the same module with the entry points inside of each other if necessary. < 1289452698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But why not write the libc in C? < 1289452700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all < 1289452739 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289452780 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because C is slow ;) < 1289452787 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am not saying don't write it in C, I am just saying that you can also write some of them in assembly language for specific computers, too. < 1289452790 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't know what you guys are talking about < 1289452795 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course any sane standard library will have assembly functions < 1289452798 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially for things like memcpy < 1289452808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: heh. < 1289452819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also write all of the function in C for use with computers that the library has not been ported to yet. < 1289452896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; Leave these last in case server is down! < 1289452896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"my birthday" "the day before my birthday" < 1289452896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1 hour before dlw's birthday" < 1289452896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ED@MIT-MC's birthday" < 1289452901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--PARSE-UNIVERSAL-TIME, OpenGenera < 1289452907 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will any C compilers compile strings into the executable file such that the following expression is true: ("abcdef"+2=="cdef") < 1289452938 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1289452941 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need the null terminator < 1289452955 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1289452957 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm dumb < 1289452958 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1289452964 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1289452996 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hypothetically yes. < 1289453021 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that gcc doesn't < 1289453032 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor clang < 1289453036 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with -Os < 1289453061 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: symbolics is so dormant: < 1289453063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[To be fair to DKS, he is not the owner of Symbolics' property. He is pretty much an independent contractor who is handling folks who need refurbished hardware and hardware maintenance on existing systems. < 1289453063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is not in a position to make decisions regarding Symbolics' intellectual property. < 1289453063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The person who could make such decisions, AFAIK, is Andrew Topping who passed away, leaving Symbolics assets tied up in probate.]] < 1289453077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hope dks will respond to my shipping question :) < 1289453095 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiling constant strings this way would make the executable file smaller and take up less memory but it should not affect the speed of the running program. < 1289453111 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, it's unlikely to crop up very often in real programs < 1289453118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may offer telnet/ssh access to the box if I can get that working (perhaps for a small fee, since it's a single-user architecture and I don't think there's any security -- i doubt someone i know would give me money to trash the box :)) < 1289453135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, X forwarding, let's just go KER-AAAAAAAZY < 1289453144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remote X access to something not based on X, it can only go well < 1289453258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voting begins: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 05:53:03 -0700 < 1289453258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voting ends : Sat, 5 Jul 2008 05:53:03 -0700 < 1289453258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x5577 O1 1.0 omd I don't deserve Scamster! < 1289453258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1289453261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: were you omd in 2008? < 1289453274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1289453275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you weren't :P < 1289453281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly murphy's-server < 1289453349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As I recall, the skeleton of Symbolics makes a living through maintenance contracts for ancient government-owned systems." < 1289453367 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Hillary Rodham Clinton < 1289453413 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Murphy had the grace not to change the caller of http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2180 to me < 1289453541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: your MOM is hillary rodham clinton. < 1289453543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1289453735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/color.html symbolics symbolics symbolics symbolics < 1289454314 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :developers < 1289454361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: symb motherfucking olics < 1289454672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover encouraged oerjan to commit suicide. < 1289454721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Former statement is 99.9999999999999999% bullshit, 0.zeroes1% gross misrepresentation.) < 1289454901 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289455355 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289456934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Key Laboratory of Modern Chinese Medicines < 1289456934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Department of Traditional Chinese Medicine < 1289456934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :China Pharmaceutical University" < 1289456936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1289457708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: zzo38: Regarding "abcdef"+2=="cdef". That will not be true for any complying C compiler. < 1289457760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, I don't think so. < 1289457772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think constant folding is allowed < 1289457781 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/folding/merging/ < 1289457783 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1289457845 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1289457851 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually unclear < 1289457858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cde" == "cde" is certainly unspecified < 1289457866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why not? < 1289457873 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's easy to imagine a C compiler caching strings < 1289457881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so when it sees "cdef", it looks for that in its current Big Heap O' String < 1289457897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finds it (coincidentally, two bytes past where we decided "abcdef" was when we stored it) < 1289457899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uses that address < 1289457905 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I would veer on the side of suffix reuse is ok < 1289457926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, i'm not sure I trust myself to halve the contents of capsules reliably < 1289457943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the only capsules of melatonin this site cells are 3mg and i want to take 1.5mg (I can't swallow pills)) < 1289457949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the tricky compiler can merge "a\0b\0c", "a", "b", and "c" < 1289457960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could try the liquid... < 1289457981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently one of those has one drop = 1/4 mg, so if i took 6 drops that'd be the dosage i want < 1289457990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: heh < 1289457995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but why would you want to? :) < 1289458032 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it is not required that ("cde"=="cde") or that ("abcde"+2=="cde") but nothing should go wrong if it compiles that it is true < 1289458109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the c standard is twisty in more ways than you or i can imagine < 1289458117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in more ways than the committee could!) < 1289458139 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And like coppro mentioned, a compiler could possibly even allow ("a\0b\0c"=="a") < 1289458244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in fact... I think you could even have "a"=="b" < 1289458262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: consider, the compiler changes some memory-read-semantics register before dereferencing the pointer < 1289458270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: although i suppose that should be part of the C pointer... < 1289458313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone (apart from Sgeo) taken melatonin here? < 1289458542 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm... I suppose that could happen < 1289458562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yeah, but I bet you'd trip over other C semantics by not including the register in the pointer < 1289458573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: still, if not... HA HA fuck you everyone who thinks that a==b implies !strcmp(a,b)! < 1289458582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to implement this perverse CPU and compiler < 1289458600 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1289458805 0 :TLUL|afk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: *disappears in a puff of purple smoke* < 1289459424 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289459789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"YES THAT IS RIGHT, WE ARE RELEASING GEOCITIES ON A TORRENT." --http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/2720 < 1289459790 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1289459791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*FUCK < 1289459792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YEAH < 1289459816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5923737/Geocities_-_The_Torrent < 1289459823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You got 688614781452 bytes free? < 1289459831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Dedicate those 6 and a half gigs to GEOCITIES. < 1289459954 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Technically 909 gigs uncompressed. < 1289459995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn damn damn i want to make a cluster grep this < 1289459997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you imagine that < 1289460000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"GREP GEOCITIES" < 1289460008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we could do that in 1996 google would have never been created < 1289460290 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinion of this logo? http://sprunge.us/VPHV < 1289460386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would totally comment except I don't have a single piece of the software needed to display it. < 1289460456 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, that is why. < 1289460562 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/black_associates_logo.png < 1289460597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_1995 < 1289460608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God fucking dammit I hate the Republican party more with each passing day. < 1289460630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like they're not even *trying* to do anything but evil pricks. < 1289460635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, but be. < 1289460647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though they may also be doing evil pricks, what with the homophobia and all. < 1289460650 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Now can you see the picture? < 1289460665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Indeed. It's, uh, a very good logo. < 1289460668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it, pikhq? < 1289460720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the hell do my choices keep being between ineffectual and maniacal. Just why. < 1289460751 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had previously made that logo in SVG, but you couldn't see through the holes. This new program is better. < 1289460766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes much better. < 1289460828 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is better for other reasons too, not just that, though. < 1289460851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's likely the GOP will play the same freaking game again this coming session of Congress. < 1289460870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Only with the debt ceiling instead of the budget. < 1289460871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Enjoy your meltdown. < 1289460893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Enjoy the US defaulting on its debt thereby melting down the world economy. < 1289460955 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to suggest changes to this logo you can, it is not quite official yet, it is just a draft so far. But the trademark for it still belongs to Black Associates. < 1289460959 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i forget how many predicted meltdowns i've lived through so far, i'm still here :) < 1289460965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Did you register it as a trademark? < 1289460969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: If not, it's not a trademark. < 1289461032 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is both registered and unregistered trademarks, with different rules. (The circled R is for register trademark and TM is unregistered trademarks, I think I read it somewhere) < 1289461042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I... don't think you realise the consequences of the US defaulting on its debt. < 1289461057 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i predict an event will occur that is not the US defaulting on its debt < 1289461074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is dependent on the GOP being sane. < 1289461090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: even the republicans are smart enough to realise that completely, utterly and instantly destroying the US would be bad for their corporatist goals < 1289461099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1289461105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They think Palin is a nifty candidate. < 1289461109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and the dems are ~compromising~ enough already, they'll have no problem agreeing to GOP stupidity to keep the US from meltdown. < 1289461128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, true, the Democrats are still spineless bastards. < 1289461129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you do realise that the actual GOP is not so much *stupid* as *misguided* and selfish? < 1289461135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the supporters, sure, stupid. (most dems too) < 1289461136 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know any trademark lawyers though < 1289461143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Hmm. Okay. < 1289461194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It still worries me that a bunch of selfish, sociopathic pricks have the power to cause every currency to look like the Zimbabwe dollar. < 1289461225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think you underestimate the power of the EU to sustain itself temporarily < 1289461245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the euro is backed by many strong countries (ok, some weak ones too) and it'd be very hard to destroy it overnight. < 1289461305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: meanwhile, take a look at the bullshit Facebook does to stop people deactivating their account: http://collison.ie/pics/60b1637dffc83eeb2597be5afe89fe5c.png < 1289461317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's partially backed by the US debt. < 1289461323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "But if you deactivate all these people will be sad? LOOK - here's PICTURES of them! Now you MUST tell us WHY we're deactivating, or we won't let you deactivate." < 1289461325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: partially yes :p < 1289461343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Actually, China would be most fucked outside of the US. < 1289461358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with having almost a trillion dollars of the US debt backing their currency. < 1289461360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think the US will default on its debt soon. < 1289461369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And being pegged to the dollar. < 1289461399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: All it takes is one Senator. < 1289461439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One completely and utterly crazy Senator. < 1289461461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: now you must of course realise that the consequences of the us defaulting on its debt provide absolutely *no* benefit to *any* US senator < 1289461484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why they'd have to be completely and utterly crazy, and not merely stupid. < 1289461491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that while most senators of untrustworthy corporatist douchebags, they're not literally-actually-psych-ward insane in the sense of random acts of arson. < 1289461514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the probability of one suddenly becoming one quick enough to do this is... ~0 < 1289461524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's only their supporters. < 1289461560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we actually got the tea party in charge of things, well. I'd find a nuclear bunker and wait out the next several centuries there. < 1289461575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the us will probably implode sometime, but i don't think they'll default on their debt :) < 1289461604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's just one of the many ways that the US could go poof, and one of the more dramatic. < 1289461613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: after all, what about every other senator and their beloved corporatocracy? i doubt they'd let a single senator jeopardise that < 1289461634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: fake offers of insane amounts of money, threats, coercion of various forms, making sure they're not able to vote... you name it < 1289461642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't put it past 99% of 'em < 1289461664 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More likely ways involve all the corporations just taking their ball and going to $country... < 1289461704 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: to CHINAAAA < 1289461725 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooor Americans just growing up. < 1289461729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hah, like that'll happen.) < 1289461751 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: give it some years. i doubt the us can continue to exist in its current state for the rest of your natural life. < 1289461767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you might want to consider moving elsewhere before the meltdown :) < 1289461775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may i suggest iceland? < 1289461810 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So should I buy a Symbolics Lisp Machine? < 1289461819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In its current state? Definitely not. Something has to give. < 1289461825 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (An actual one, not one of those Lisp Machines on a card plugged into a 68k Mac, or an Alpha machine running OpenGenera.) < 1289461849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly not in a *stable* state right now. < 1289461869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Maybe. < 1289461889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They are actually remarkably cheap. The cheapest Lisp Machine is $675 including the CRT, keyboard and everything. < 1289461893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Yes, *the* Symbolics keyboard.) < 1289461987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course the postage to the UK will be hideously expensive (it weighs 70 pounds, and that's just the computer). So while I'm at it, might as well add some upgrades: $150 would double my disk space to 1.5 gigs, $200 would max out the memory to 8 megawords ($50/megaword), and the 19" premium monitor is $300. (Premium in this case probably means "even vaguely reliable"; 80s CRTs are... fun things. < 1289461987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The stock monitor is 17". Both are monochrome.) < 1289462000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I have emailed DKS asking about shipping to the UK. < 1289462024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[We provide a 90 day Return-To-Factory warranty on all equipment we sell. < 1289462024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are responsible for all shipping costs and there is a $50 crating fee < 1289462024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the XL1200 and 36xx machines, unless you pick up the machine from our < 1289462024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :location in Burke, VA. Payment is required in advance. We can accept < 1289462024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :credit card payments through the Payment Pal system with a 3% surcharge (4% < 1289462024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for international).]] < 1289462030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sweet, so postage is $50 + postage :P < 1289462035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (lol @ "Payment Pal") < 1289462109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now will Vorpal wake up so he can link me to that guide? < 1289462112 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: do you still have that OpenGenera on Linux tutorial? <-- uh, maybe. On a different computer then, which I don't have time to mess with before leaving for university. grep the logs for url if you want it before late this evening < 1289462116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha wow < 1289462118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what timing! < 1289462120 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1289462121 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :within a *second* < 1289462126 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, :D < 1289462129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wasn't it in /msg? < 1289462132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i misrecall < 1289462134 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, who knows. < 1289462146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it was probably a sprunge link < 1289462153 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1289462155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was on sporksirc i thin < 1289462156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1289462167 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I doubt it. I could ssh in there and check now though < 1289462182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that would be great :) < 1289462203 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only place it would have been does not contain it < 1289462208 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hm I'd love to just be able to pull up an inspector on anything, just like in genera, or squeak. Genera more so iirc. < 1289462209 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, sprunge < 1289462214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ElliottOS does that! < 1289462227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ egrep -r 'Vorpal>.*(open)?genera\b' 10* < 1289462231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :returns a lot fewer results than i'd expect < 1289462236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries OpenGenera < 1289462244 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, try adding -i too < 1289462246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only gets one more... < 1289462260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: -i is much slower and returns the same results < 1289462264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why I used [Oo] [Gg] :P < 1289462266 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wrt your OS: sure. But well I'd also love if it was available today... < 1289462273 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1289462282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I doubt I used openGeNERA < 1289462285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, yeah, you can't perfectionify in a day :) < 1289462301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh you may have been Vorpal_ < 1289462302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or AnMaster! < 1289462305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nah) < 1289462305 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1289462310 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster probably < 1289462320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ egrep -r '(Vorpal|AnMaster).*>.*([Oo]pen)?[Gg]enera\b' 10* < 1289462322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better. < 1289462326 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I agree wrt perfectionify. But then it isn't a viable option *today* as such. < 1289462342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: bleh, didn't you make the guide as vorpal? < 1289462343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you did < 1289462350 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have no idea < 1289462360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you ever try opengenera over some X forwarding? < 1289462369 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, must prepare lunch box. bbl < 1289462389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.07.30:08:26:36 alise, did you get opengenera to work nicely? I wrote up a somewhat more up-to-date guide for it. Also includes how to install the symbolics X fonts (otherwise small text like in Show Keyboard Layout output is unreadable). < 1289462399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1289462400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1289462415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ZAWh < 1289462478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if you get back, i sure hope debian works instead of ubuntu < 1289462480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaner for a vm < 1289462536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what xorg did 7.10 use... < 1289462802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: don't suppose you can seed opengenera again? i lost the file :p < 1289462939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ] opengenera2.tar.bz2 19-Nov-2008 23:01 197M < 1289462948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck yeah http :P but actually my download just sped up so never mind < 1289462951 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back for 20 minutes < 1289462969 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, um. Not on this computer < 1289462982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's ok it sped up :P < 1289463262 0 :atrapado!~ro@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289463383 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I just realised that light pollution is a major issue in minecraft XD < 1289463394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wat xD < 1289463429 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, all that lit outdoors. Not directed only downwards but omnidirectional light sources... < 1289463468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the SUN! it can't be light pollution! < 1289463480 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well what about the torches?! < 1289463488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1289463520 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean the roof is lit to prevent stuff spawning on top at night when I switch away from peaceful < 1289463539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so that's how you stop the FUCKING HISSING. < 1289463542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ABOVE YOU. JESUS CHRIST. < 1289463552 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in future my shelters are under-fucking-ground. < 1289463585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, just don't use earth for the roof. lit earth (maybe only with grass, not sure) will spawn cows, pigs, chickens and so on < 1289463599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but AROUND YOU < 1289463610 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the sound of them is annoying < 1289463683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, just build the roof high enough so stuff can't jump up and make sure it is lit so stuff can't spawn on top < 1289463699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under ground < 1289463701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the place for me < 1289463719 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, monsters during the day too in other words < 1289463733 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches elliott's reaction < 1289463737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHUT UP < 1289463742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1289463795 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you recall what x version 7.10 used < 1289463864 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no and I can't check without missing the bus :P < 1289463873 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah etch 4.0 should do < 1289463875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :april 2007 < 1289463898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 32-bit right < 1289463987 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, must be 64-bit < 1289463992 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh < 1289463994 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289463995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1289463999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh shit i'll have to use qemu < 1289464003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well it'll be faster than a 3620! < 1289464014 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, slightly < 1289464023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll have more ram :P < 1289464027 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1289464032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: is the setup workable without sudo or should i just install sudo to avoid pain < 1289464054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope that virtualbox bug doesn't apply to qemu too < 1289464077 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh, I needed to run the stuff as root. Presumably you don't have to if you figure out a way to let a normal user mess with tun interfaces < 1289464091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i just mean, you say to make sure the user is sudoable < 1289464093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas, y'know, su < 1289464101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the emulator run as root anyway? < 1289464110 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, it was on ubuntu. su would have been more work there < 1289464117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Extract the Open Genera tarball somewhere, you should have a directory og2 from it. < 1289464117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should contain a directory sys.sct, note down the path to it, we will use it < 1289464117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :below.]] < 1289464124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOO! i get to figure out how to move it from qemu to there < 1289464133 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1289464134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-fda opengenera.tar.bz2, then dd if=/dev/fd0 < 1289464135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1289464136 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: erm < 1289464143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i have the opengenera2.tar.bz2 file locally < 1289464146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i need to get it into qemu < 1289464147 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also what was the virtualbox bug? I don't remember < 1289464150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly by pretending it's a floppy. < 1289464156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If your NAT the network to the guest, like by default in VirtualBox, then < 1289464156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : make sure it does not use 10.* for the subnet. VirtualBox uses this by default. < 1289464157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There is a bug in VirtualBox 3.2.6 that causes an issue here, see < 1289464157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/6176 < 1289464157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : For example, I used this: < 1289464157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $ VBoxManage setextradata OpenGenera "VBoxInternal/Devices/e1000/0/LUN#0/Config/Network" "172.23.24/24" < 1289464159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, bloody large floppy < 1289464159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Where OpenGenera is the name of the VM. < 1289464161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Do this while the VM is powered off. < 1289464164 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1289464167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah well, second hard drive them < 1289464167 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt qemu has that < 1289464170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-hdb opengenera2.tar.bz2 < 1289464187 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably last virtualbox doesn't either < 1289464196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow qemu can do numa :) < 1289464225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: how much disk do i need roughly? < 1289464231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, using numa for opengenera, already a somewhat brittle setup, is tempting fate < 1289464242 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, don't remember < 1289464243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'm not THAT crazy < 1289464255 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I probably used 10 GB, dynamically growing < 1289464267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 gigs will do fine i bet < 1289464268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 8? < 1289464272 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 should be fine right :P < 1289464272 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but opengenera takes a bit of space < 1289464281 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have no idea how much debian takes :P < 1289464283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, 8 < 1289464287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: debian base install is small :P < 1289464295 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well you need X too < 1289464300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was including x but ok < 1289464332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ qemu -vga vmware -cdrom debian-40r8-amd64-netinst.iso genera.qcow2 < 1289464333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo < 1289464346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl (not leaving yet, but has to check that I have everything I need in my backpack) < 1289464353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*qemu-system-x86_64 < 1289464460 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmm, it's probably a bad idea to try and use a non-US locale, right? < 1289464461 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION secretly replaces qemu with a wrapper script calling bochs on elliott's computer < 1289464469 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, probably < 1289464476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, bbiab again < 1289464543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no utf-8 support eh :P < 1289465139 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289465271 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, possibly < 1289465277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1289465296 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hullo ais523 < 1289465311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you want to stop me making a bad purchase that will leave me with an obsolete physical object that i really have no practical, real-world use for, now's the time < 1289465322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the object takes up space, and by now i mean any time in the next few weeks < 1289465352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a pitty there were no "lisptops" XD < 1289465364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lispops. Lops. < 1289465383 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisptop would be a lisp-laptop < 1289465403 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also, estimates on how much it would cost to ship a large object over 70 pounds in weight from the US to the UK would be greatly appreciated and also help to dispel this ridiculous notion of me buying a Lisp Machine. < 1289465423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Specifically the machine weighs 70 pounds and the CRT weighs something extra. There is also the keyboard and stuff.) < 1289465439 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl, university < 1289465466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"back, i have a degree now" < 1289465472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(four years later) < 1289465834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, swap partition for a vm < 1289465846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that actually makes sense. < 1289466245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: root password is x < 1289466639 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1289466748 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289466776 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289466858 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289467164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol oklos the poles < 1289467202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah stanislav does indeed own a 3620 < 1289467209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/bolix2.png < 1289467211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/bolix3.png < 1289467709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289467714 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289467793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Deewiant :p < 1289468348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-level_store < 1289469990 0 :choochter!~choochter@host81-146-33-233.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289470984 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289470988 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289471066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually user/pass is q < 1289471268 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iPlhcSZmvg&feature=player_embedded < 1289478844 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1289484450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289484522 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-6-197.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289485293 0 :mycrofti1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mycroftiv < 1289485535 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289486816 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289487269 0 :digimunk!~David.Man@prague.dreamhost.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289487312 0 :yorick!yorick@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-pryilftmscekgqax JOIN :#esoteric < 1289488199 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289488275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, Motorola sued Microsoft < 1289488292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patent mutually assured destruction isn't just theory now, but actual practice < 1289488412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very much so. < 1289488442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm amazed that none of the people involved are lobbying to get software patents repealed < 1289488450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it must be in the interest of at least one of them? < 1289488930 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@97-124-34-128.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289489331 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289489880 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1289490420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The lawyers would have to tell management that. < 1289490426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think they're giving up the gravy train? < 1289491463 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289491643 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289492635 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1289493940 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289494103 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I the only person who thinks MathML is an abomination? < 1289494125 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There already *is* a markup language for mathematical notation. < 1289494242 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289494258 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19 lines for ax^2+bx+c, while in LaTeX it's more or less that string. < 1289494354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just because it's ~XML~? < 1289494485 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. CLISP is a dependency for AUCTeX. < 1289494522 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1289494581 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why. < 1289494631 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1289494638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289494817 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289494845 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289496133 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1289496432 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289496549 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289496768 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: don't get me started. all tag-based languages are fucking abominations and need to die. < 1289496779 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't people just use lisp? < 1289496781 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just as good < 1289496802 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it can be clunky for text. < 1289496826 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nawww < 1289496837 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides, have you ever viewed source on a web page? < 1289496856 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the text:markup ratio is like 1:10-1:20 < 1289496932 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a point. < 1289496956 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume Berners-Lee had a reason for it, but I'm not sure what it was... < 1289497700 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it wasn't designed with the modern web in mind < 1289497717 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, HTML? < 1289497721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1289497725 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1289497742 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it was designed with something like

foo

a few paragraphs of pure text here < 1289497750 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it seems somewhat saner < 1289497766 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just aggregated from that? < 1289497767 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head stuff was probably just to future proof it < 1289497776 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm? < 1289497802 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, if you mean that it grow out of it's original intentions: well... did you never use netscape 1 or 2? < 1289497803 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, more stuff got lumped onto a framework that wasn't designed to support it. < 1289497828 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and they reused an existing format. SGML < 1289497834 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a variant of it < 1289497843 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGML was designed for something else < 1289498079 0 :cal153!~cal@208.181.171.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289498108 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any idea who thought MathML was a good idea? < 1289498259 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Example_and_comparison_to_other_formats < 1289498364 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives 4 formats in which the quadratic formula takes a single line of markup and then gives the Presentation MathML code, which takes up most of my browser's vertical space, and the Content version, which requires me to scroll down halfway again just to read the whole thing. < 1289498400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably derive the entire formula from scratch in that space with a sane markup language. < 1289499646 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1289499990 0 :cal153!~cal@199.60.221.207 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289500391 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.80.202 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289500940 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION discovers CL has a struct mechanism. < 1289501596 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289502563 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289503133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Huh. CLISP is a dependency for AUCTeX. < 1289503135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; "a lisp" is. < 1289503138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Install SBCL and it won't install CLISP. < 1289503299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah. < 1289505023 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After I finish reading the book and make a few more plans, I can make a program implementing TeX (or rather, implementing something similar to TeX), I should call it YeX (where the "Y" is really supposed to be a Greek letter Upsilon). And I shall use Enhanced CWEB to write it. And using fixed-point numbers for glue set values instead of floating-point < 1289505032 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinion? < 1289505152 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no intention it should pass the TRIP test (I could make it check if the input is the TRIP test and if so, make the output of the TRIP test, but that would be cheating!) but it will pass another test called TRIP'' test (which I have written and tested on MiKTeX already) < 1289505845 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, if it doesn't use FP senselessly I approve of it. < 1289506015 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean by "use FP senselessly"? < 1289506075 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where you a) don't need very fast calculations and b) need exact precision in your calculations. < 1289506097 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. most of the time you're doing calculations with subdivided integers. < 1289506210 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend that identical output cna be produced on different computers. (With TeX, the glue set values are floating point but dimensions are in fixed point.) < 1289506406 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ cna be / can be / < 1289506557 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really shouldn't have wondered into #clojure... < 1289506580 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor should I have mentioned that O(log_32 n) is the same as O(ln n). < 1289506603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh why < 1289506749 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because log_32 n = ln n/ln 32, and O(kf(x)) is the same as O(f(x)). < 1289506780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean mentioning it < 1289506783 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1289506784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1289506792 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly nitpick. < 1289506804 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I don't think they quite got it. < 1289506808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened < 1289506810 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1289506910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: but O(ln n) is misleading since it's much faster :P < 1289506913 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is what happened. < 1289506926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. < 1289506968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He eventually remembered that big O notation is a measure of algorithmic complexity, not time taken, although not nearly as intelligently as that. < 1289507127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone else in the channel didn't know what logs were, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. < 1289507140 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He may have been a 14-year-old script kiddie. < 1289507199 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More highlights: Phantom_Hoover: in a mathematical perfect world, O(log32 n) would be "the same" as O(log2 n) < 1289507216 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that this "mathematical perfect world" is the real one escaped him. < 1289507243 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He then said something I still haven't grasped about O(1) and O(ln n). < 1289507253 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it is the same, but not when you execute the algorithm on a machine ;P < 1289507355 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1289507360 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conclusion: don't let people who think "Lisp in Java" is a good idea near maths. < 1289508223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? < 1289508226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGOT! < 1289508229 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1289508300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, where is fungot? < 1289508319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU KILLED HIM! < 1289508322 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU BASTARD! < 1289508335 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swatpans fizzie --==\#/ < 1289508502 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good question. < 1289508562 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289508567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is fungot. < 1289508568 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nor even by srfi 1, or n-k as ecraven suggested? or is this going to be redefining chord, rather than 7.7.1 ( which is in a language like that *used* to make me right now < 1289508619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Conclusion, people fail hard at big-O. < 1289508642 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["I am not racist, I've been friendly with an Indian for 30 years. I've also been to a Muslim wedding where it was explained to me that alcohol would not be served and I respected that.]] — a Daily Mail quotee, doing what people quoted in the Mail do best. < 1289508655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Especially* people who believe that Lisp in Java is a good idea. < 1289508657 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I agree. < 1289508715 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, if you follow up "I am not racist" with "I have a $RACE friend", you might just be a racist. < 1289508741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :racist is an adjective fffffffffffffffffffffff < 1289508774 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I thought you detested prescriptivists. < 1289508796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pet peeve. < 1289508834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Many many many adjectives are also nouns, interpreted as "an $adjective person"... Sorry. < 1289508881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to be used in a prejudicial way, i find < 1289508883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, not as bad as ais523's condemnation of the use of "damn" as an intransitive verb. < 1289508892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a gay" < 1289508903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"blacks" < 1289508992 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prejudice against racists! < 1289508996 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Racismism! < 1289509017 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's just a property of pretty much all prejudice being based on arbitrary classifications with simple adjectives. < 1289509045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt there's much prejudice against disestablishmentarians. < 1289509078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or antidisestablishmentarians. < 1289509119 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :antidisestablishmentarianism is quite hard to type < 1289509184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My password was once "ultraneocontraantidisestablishmentarianistically". < 1289509197 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Whoops, still is! < 1289509221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, no; my fingers would be bloodied stumps. < 1289509222 0 :digimunk!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1289509226 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1289509246 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd be a bloody fast typist then! < 1289509252 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was for a school computer with an obnoxious password policy. < 1289509265 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, nah, accuracy was the thing. < 1289509299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you have a 48-character password, you get it right *first time*. < 1289509369 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11 seconds now. < 1289509412 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I missed an 'h'. < 1289509426 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you kind of missed the point there, but whatever < 1289509440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Failure. "Ultraneocontraäntidisestablishmentarianistically". You sir are a failure of a human being. < 1289509450 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no compose key on Windows. < 1289509457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1289509477 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I was YOUNG, and NAÏVE! < 1289509486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1289509523 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway Clojure; stupidity of users thereof. < 1289509533 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, writing an os/kernel is a wide project, there are about a hundred of different things I could start implementing now < 1289509547 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what stage are you at/ < 1289509550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1289509564 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it boots, goes into long mode, can jump between kernel and user mode < 1289509576 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a console would be good < 1289509626 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it would be... having something that can use that console would also be good :P < 1289509664 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh; that's easier. < 1289509686 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest getting a hosted ISO C environment up and running. < 1289509692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bare minimum for a useful OS and all that) < 1289509695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck C < 1289509713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, yes, you could just copulate with C and call it a day. < 1289509767 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as I see it that's all wrapped in a libc that would eventually result in system calls (those system calls are obviously not implemented yet), so really I'm at the stage of getting a hosted assembly environment up and running < 1289509778 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not even at that stage < 1289509784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*echm* Newlib. < 1289509823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq just doesn't get it < 1289509843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you do want that, pdclib, anyway) < 1289509877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you mean anyone could want anything *but* yet another Unix-alike? < 1289509881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Craziness. < 1289509924 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of that, the libc will need kernel support < 1289509932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if olsner does writing libc is part of the fun < 1289509932 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it uses magic < 1289509952 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if magic would be convenient it would ruin the fun < 1289509954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Newlib's pretty nice for getting things up and running really quickly, though. < 1289509972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :os !+ quick < 1289509976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!+= < 1289509980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!= < 1289509998 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unexpected: AFRINIC apparently got a /8... < 1289510066 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a console driver, and some messages from the kernel, would be a pretty good start... then I can add syscalls for printing/reading from it (at least until I wrap it in whatever my stream/file/object api will look like) < 1289510116 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, wait, IPv4 is still being allocated? < 1289510149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Huh. I thought their usage was such that they wouldn't need any more addresses until after IPv4 doomsday... < 1289510151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yup, we've got a few more months of IPv4 address space left. < 1289510175 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. 6 more /8s to allocate (plus the 5 /8s to distribute after those 6 are depleted). < 1289510188 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what are the chances of total civilisational collapse afterwards? < 1289510205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Quite low. < 1289510222 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baah. < 1289510241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have been an awesome story to tell to the children around the fire in the ruins of our cities. < 1289510264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decent chance of being a bit of a painful punch to the economy though. < 1289510282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What do you mean, we can't take any more clients until we upgrade our 15 year old tech?" < 1289510283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So, granda, how did everything go wrong?" "We ran out of space on the internet." < 1289510307 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, there will be 3 more IPv4 allocations from IANA (2 /8s each). Then the 6 are exhausted and rest 5 are allocated immediately. < 1289510317 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISCLAIMER: the old man didn't know exactly how IPs worked. < 1289510345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: to who? < 1289510346 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ipv6 = the postapocalyptic internet < 1289510395 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each RIR will get one of those 5 blocks. And the previous three allocations would seem to go to ARIN, APNIC and RIPE. < 1289510448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: IANA allocates to the RIRs, and each RIR allocates to entities in their region. < 1289510466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So, the actual end of IPv4 allocations will be a few months *after* IANA runs out. < 1289510476 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appraently in order: APNIC, RIPE, ARIN, all in first half of next year (unless something unexpected happens). < 1289510569 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1289510612 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This model is estimating that when IANA runs out and the resulting dust settles, there are 22.82 blocks still held by RIRs (plus 3.56 blocks set aside). < 1289510675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when does the first RIR run out? < 1289510709 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html < 1289510716 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In about one year (unless there is run on the bank scenario... If that happens, could be a lot sooner). < 1289510749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, about one year if we have essentially the same allocation trends... < 1289510766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we're still not IPv6 ready. < 1289510771 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289510807 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289510807 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yellow text (minecraft): "Absolutely dragon-free!" < 1289510809 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As said, possibility of "run on the bank" scenario is still there. If that happens, all bets are off. < 1289510901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that happens, well, maybe some bean counters will start having a heartattack once they realise they cannot grow at all until they do massive upgrades. < 1289510904 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what's that? < 1289510910 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289510917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, no, they almost certainly will, it's just a matter of when they realise that... < 1289510936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Oh shit we're about to run out of IPv4. EVERYONE GET SOME!" < 1289510993 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why the heart attacks would be a bad thing. < 1289511042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everybody should have finished upgrading years ago. < 1289511063 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but anything that thins out the accountants is good. < 1289511063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it is, people aren't likely to start upgrading until, oh, 2012. < 1289511070 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, my aunt is an accountant... < 1289511106 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289511184 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's no telling what is going to happen after IANA announces it has allocated the last block... < 1289511200 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anarchy! Chaos! < 1289511213 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fire raining from the skies, cats and dogs living together! < 1289511264 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/our-disaster-recovery-plan.png < 1289511272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "The Internet is full, we need to use a new one" is sure to be a kick in the balls to investors. < 1289511610 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that... that is the best description of the problem ever. < 1289511946 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1289512036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289512081 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289512337 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@128.198.97.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289512606 0 :jkenj999!~root@41.137.56.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1289512956 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, flat address space, no segment override required < 1289513050 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried to write stuff into what will become my kernel data area as [gs:edi] but realized I can just write to the address of it directly < 1289513092 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289513146 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo! < 1289513167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A question: which is faster: O(log_32 n) or O(ln n)? < 1289513168 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover! < 1289513174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're the same < 1289513180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, that's a 0 < 1289513184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not < 1289513225 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like asking which is faster, O(2) or O(1) < 1289513239 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you are correct. The people who _wrote_ Clojure got that wrong. < 1289513265 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although they thought "Lisp in Java" was a good idea, so... < 1289513346 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I need to meditate further on the nature of the kernel stack < 1289513417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp as intermediate representation: as stupid as it sounds? < 1289513471 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-2925108739.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1289513481 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean: if I have exactly one kernel stack [per cpu], will that simply work? or would I need a per-process kernel stack? < 1289513489 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember discussion on this channel about how s-expressions were originally intended as an intermediate representation < 1289513496 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1289513506 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if I don't preempt I'll just never leave the kernel with a non-empty stack < 1289513582 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually though, this sucker should be smp capable, just because it's the right thing to do... and that's a bit mindbending < 1289513609 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEXPS are actually basically used as an intermediate representation in cl-ppcre. < 1289513664 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eugh, interrupts get RSP loaded from the TSS, so obviously I need separate "kernel" and "interrupt" stacks < 1289513700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This actually means that PPCRE is actually frequently *faster* than Perl's own regexes. < 1289513748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: er, cl-ppcre is just a binding, no? < 1289513762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait PCRE = perl compatible regexes wonder what the extra p is for < 1289513770 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "portable". < 1289513779 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And PPCRE is a ground-up regex library. < 1289513800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl. < 1289513805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrible name clash < 1289513822 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it has a facility to compile regexes into some Lisp code that does what the regex would do. < 1289513838 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1289513841 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This can be compiled into native code, while Perl's library just interprets. < 1289514210 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the first time I was utterly confused by a Sam Hughes NaNoWriMo < 1289514275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289514280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why? < 1289514299 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was... difficult to read, I guess < 1289514320 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the most part, I had little idea what was going on < 1289514357 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link? < 1289514361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Approximate plot? < 1289514408 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qntm.org/puggle < 1289514438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um.. according to Sam, something about destroying the world since it didn't end on Dec. 22, 2012 like it should have < 1289514446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that saves it < 1289514659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sam Hughes cannot possibly write anything more confusing than "Unbelievable scenes", so shut up. < 1289514676 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Made sense, I think. < 1289514836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Now try http://qntm.org/unbelievable. < 1289514850 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The best part is, after that one, you can read the REST of Fine Structure! Unlike me, who hasn't read past The Story So Far! < 1289514920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iain M. Banks needs to write a novel with Sam Hughes. That is what I have decided. < 1289515014 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1289515038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read anything significant by either? < 1289515067 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1289515095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The latter, yes; Ed stories and most of his standalone fiction, plus I read a good chunk of his old webcomic and god knows what else. < 1289515115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine Structure, his second novel -- although the Ed stories only became a novel near the end, really -- I have yet to complete. < 1289515127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But, you know, http://qntm.org/unbelievable is the first chapter, so (unless you already have) go read it. < 1289515146 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've read everything by Iain M Banks, so I'll tackle Hughes later. < 1289515151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (And no, it isn't just a series of disconnected vignettes.) < 1289515153 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I shall RULE THE WORLD! < 1289515160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://qntm.org/unbelievable YOU CANNOT RESIST < 1289515164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, he has a webcomic? < 1289515183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also, the first two sentences of the second chapter will convince you for sure. (Read the first chapter first, of course.) < 1289515188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (A chapter is a page.) < 1289515191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Had. Yonks ago. < 1289515234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://qntm.org/files/stickmanstickman/index.php < 1289515254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears that the actual comic is now down. < 1289515348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qntm.org/files/stickmanstickman/comics.php But here's some source code. < 1289515371 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does have a distinctly Banksian feel. < 1289515396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: He definitely has his own (awesome) style, though. SECOND CHAPTER GO GO GO < 1289515409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Resistance... is... useless!) < 1289515457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hereby appoint him #esoteric's Poet Laureate. < 1289515463 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I can't live without sleep like you! < 1289515471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's only 10:44. Man the fuck up. < 1289515479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Or read it TOMORROW.) < 1289515488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Note: It will take multiple days to release.) < 1289515491 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230253.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1289515491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll do the latter. < 1289515492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1289515494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Note: It will take multiple days to read.) < 1289515509 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the entire afternoon off. < 1289515523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It is a *long* novel. < 1289515554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://qntm.org/structure is a TOC. (Some of the chapter titles are vaguely spoilery, so just glance, and then realise that all the ones marked (subdirectory) are multiple full-length chapters in one.) < 1289515621 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does he have Banks' habit of leaving you with /that much/ book left and the whole plot at a point where it seems a resolution would take an entire sequel? < 1289515664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not sure about Fine Structure. I'm find it hard working out whether the Ed stories do that. < 1289515695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Actually, to optimise your enjoyment, you should probably read the Ed stories first, as it's not quite as grand-scale as Fine Structure and if you do it the other way around it'll seem anticlimatic. < 1289515706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://qntm.org/ed; and yes, the writing does get incomprehensibly better.) < 1289515730 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His opening style is *very* like Banks. < 1289515748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What, even http://qntm.org/robot1? :P < 1289515755 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for FS. < 1289515767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN A WORLD... THAT MAKES SENSE ONLY TO CRAZY SCI-FI BUFFS... [[...so in the end, we - this is me and Ed - said "to hell with moisture detectors" and built the giant robot instead.]] < 1289515786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure that's a universal truth, there. < 1289515891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, incidentally, thanks for telling me about quicklisp. < 1289515906 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're welcome! I do whatever xach tells me to. < 1289515914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-you-living-constitution-free-zone *sigh* < 1289515946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It would be AWESOME if the Constitution actually said that it applied to all of America except that border. < 1289515972 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know. That video clearly isn't YouTube. < 1289515983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You know, when *I* used Common Lisp, there wasn't even clbuild. < 1289515988 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, same! < 1289515991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Do you know what we had? We had ASDF-INSTALL. That was it! < 1289515995 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same! < 1289516003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It complained about EVERY SINGLE PACKAGE not GPG-validating. < 1289516013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And it spit out SO MUCH USELESS OUTPUT that you could NEVER tell what to do if it failed. < 1289516015 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's not that the Constitution says that, it's that the federal government is convinced it can ignore that. < 1289516016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO PFWAH < 1289516017 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used ASDF-INSTALL even *after* QL! < 1289516023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: why would you do that < 1289516026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm joking. < 1289516035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was YOUNG, and NAÏVE! < 1289516058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm not sure what you guys like so much about the constitution anyway. The left, anyway; it doesn't exactly provide for much socialism. < 1289516071 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, whoa, CLIMACS has so many dependencies. < 1289516073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, violating it isn't good. But still, it's a bit of a crap constitution if you ask me. < 1289516085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: * Installing FOURPLAY... < 1289516096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But, uhh, yeah, welcome to McCLIM. < 1289516104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You won't be using it in a day or two. < 1289516124 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, it's more that people worship the damned thing while ignoring every single provision of it. < 1289516126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://common-lisp.net/project/climacs/images/screenshots/jpegsinclimacs.png Apparently Lena is "aroused at the new functionality!". < 1289516127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In particular the bit about how the federal government has *no powers* that aren't granted to it by the Constitution... < 1289516150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :De jure, the federal government is incapable of doing almost everything it de facto does. < 1289516155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://common-lisp.net/project/climacs/images/screenshots/completions.png Look at that modernity! < 1289516157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yup. < 1289516165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think you guys should replace the Constitution with something saner. < 1289516175 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hideous, isn't it? < 1289516179 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1289516182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Like, something that actually lets the government do helpful things. Maybe then people wouldn't get so used to violating it. < 1289516187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Indeed. Lena is UGLY. < 1289516189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Heck, it'd just be saner if it were just followed and then the state governments actually did things... < 1289516190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurr i misinterpreted you < 1289516192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is funy < 1289516206 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289516206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what is the benefit of the US being one country, again? < 1289516222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not a whole lot. < 1289516234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1289516249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could just be the North American Union. < 1289516255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the Amero as its currency. < 1289516290 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Or, you know, separate currencies. < 1289516296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Eh. < 1289516300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Or the Euro :P < 1289516308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Y'know what the truly awesome thing is about this? < 1289516315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What? < 1289516331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: We could let the hicks suffer under their self-imposed Christian Sharia, and not have to deal with their bullshit any more. < 1289516345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah 'cuz they're totally localised :P < 1289516383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Anyway, separate currencies exist for a reason, even if they are dumbtarded. < 1289516388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/PurpleNation.PNG Let the solid red states suffer. < 1289516408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It doesn't make sense to unify strong economies under one currency; only to unify multiple weak economies, plus a few strong economies. (The Euro is a large-scale example of this.) < 1289516436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Economic systems need some major refactoring. < 1289516450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :politics is so fucking boring < 1289516454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should be less boring here < 1289516456 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's talk about kittens < 1289516490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so did you know that qemu-system-x86_64 is really slow < 1289516496 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... Disturb economic systems enough and they don't bend, they collapse... With bad results. < 1289516528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, our economic systems are really really fragile. < 1289516649 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: did you know that < 1289516662 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Laik, use a better CPU < 1289516679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: laik, intel have decided that laptop cpus don't deserve virtualisation support < 1289516684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because they're fuckwads < 1289516692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuckwads. < 1289516698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my next processor will not be intel :) < 1289516702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: anyway this is just for a lisp machine! < 1289516737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: x86-64 Debian testing emulating x86-64 Ubuntu 7.10 emulating Alpha Tru64 UNIX basically-emulating a Lisp Machine running Genera. < 1289517152 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1289517192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: night, GENERA LOSER < 1289517195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: does genera do tcp < 1289517197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say yes < 1289517283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u/x < 1289517369 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-199-126.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1289517759 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1289517959 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289518058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I am writing Kitten's service manager / process 1 replacement now. < 1289518072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It is, in fact, perfectly possible to manage it entirely with the filesystem. < 1289518099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Things like starting and stopping services and other such stuff equates to deleting/creating (blank) files, changing permissions, etc. < 1289518113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course, if you're too WIMPY, you can use sv(8) whose interface I basically stole from runit to do the same thing. < 1289518266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HOWEVER I do need an opinion on a matter of most importance. Is stopping a service unlinking (whatever the path is) /sv/foo/started, or is it, I don't know, making /sv/foo/run -x? < 1289518508 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1289518700 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1289518889 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1289518889 0 :Quadlex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1289518901 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1289518923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol klos the pols in o < 1289518929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why he's the o klo-pol < 1289518991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if you don't want me to hardcode a maximum path limit NOW'S THE TIME TO STOP MY IRRESPONSIBILITY < 1289519041 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289519059 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I capable of stopping your irresponsibility? < 1289519065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why would you < 1289519077 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, where, exactly, have I heard the phrase "None, one, or many"? < 1289519085 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't figure it out < 1289519114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1289519200 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard that said as "two is an impossible number" < 1289519426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule < 1289519434 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TwoIsAnImpossibleNumber < 1289519452 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1289519483 0 :Quadlex!~quadlex@li23-6.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1289519538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, why is there no strmulticat function in C? < 1289519545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :takes a string and an array of strings < 1289519627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be ok if strcat at least returned dest + strlen(dest) < 1289519688 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need: memcpy, strlen, addition < 1289519758 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let's say you're designing an improvement over WIMP" < 1289519769 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sounds like the Richard guy, although it's unsigned < 1289519795 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's WIMP? < 1289519854 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, some UI concept, I think. Basically the norm for general purpose computers, unless you're using a tiled WM? < 1289519865 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'In humancomputer interaction, WIMP stands for "window, icon, menu, pointing device", ' < 1289519891 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, that one