< 1288828951 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1288828986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288828989 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288828991 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288828994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288828996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokoko < 1288829002 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829016 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829020 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokoko < 1288829026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829039 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokoko < 1288829047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1288829050 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi everyone < 1288829053 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my name is oklopol < 1288829057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol ominovorol < 1288829059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm here to stay < 1288829165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MonoDevelop or SharpDevelop? < 1288829188 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SharpDevelop < 1288829226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elaborate? < 1288829240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has more BAZAP < 1288829252 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1288829258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a nicer name < 1288829306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's sharpdevelop? < 1288829334 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/ < 1288829385 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1288829390 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a text editor < 1288829448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to go ahead and assume that both SharpDevelop and MonoDevelop are more lightweight than Visual Studio < 1288829466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :visual studio i've used, it's a nice text editor < 1288829556 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288829575 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: why are you here to stay? < 1288829628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn't i be? < 1288829768 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: saying 'okokoko...' lots of times < 1288829791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathnerd is noob < 1288829798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi okky!!! < 1288829801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1288829817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokoko < 1288829844 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: exactly. when did you come to this realization? < 1288829851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Mrf < 1288829866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agreed < 1288829871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you dissed okky < 1288829939 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah everyone learns to love me with time < 1288829958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1288829965 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, ok. < 1288829997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Mathnerd314, are you a math nerd < 1288830002 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so do you think I'm a noob in general or just in context of okky? < 1288830029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too complex question < 1288830032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokoko < 1288830034 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I would say so, from a biased perspective < 1288830070 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of math nerdity do you do < 1288830207 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah < 1288830216 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thin lens approximation in 3d < 1288830228 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: abstract algebra, mostly < 1288830233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1288830235 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i find that goddamn transformation matrix < 1288830240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what algebras < 1288830251 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAOAAOAOAOOAOA < 1288830258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like < 1288830262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best < 1288830332 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288830496 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: commutative ones < 1288830531 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288830542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me something cool about them < 1288830594 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather hard, since we're studying *noncommutative* algebras :p < 1288830663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are the operations, do algebras where you just have a commutative operator have some common properties, or are we talking about + and * < 1288830717 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and * < 1288830737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an ideal is an algebra? < 1288830739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense < 1288830748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1288830769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication operators and addition? does each ideal give you a module like that? < 1288830837 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clarification: are we talking about fields of mathematics or specific types of mathematical objects? < 1288830857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we're talking about objects < 1288830922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my specific question is < 1288830929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1288830942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and *" <<< so this was about fields, not objects < 1288830970 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. s/algebras/algebra/ < 1288831054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1288831061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me something about noncommutative algebras < 1288831074 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something sexy < 1288831160 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i've done with algebra recently was inventing homomorphisms, i came up with this marvellous way to associate semigroups and groups to algebras, and of course it was just a convoluted implementation of homomorphism (semi)groups < 1288831163 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about "sexy"... but all semisimple ones are just matrices < 1288831241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so first of all what do we have, we have a... ring? or do we have an algebra in the sense ring-module-hybrid < 1288831268 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't done noncommutative algebra, so i can't really jump into a vague explanation, you'll have to set theory it up < 1288831279 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: a ring < 1288831282 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1288831283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1288831295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semisimple? < 1288831359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"but all semisimple ones are just matrices" <<< if a ring has the property of semisimplicity, you can implement the ring as a ring of matrices? < 1288831372 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for all modules over this ring, every submodule has a complement so that the module is a direct sum of the submodule and its complement" < 1288831388 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ semisimple < 1288831398 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ring) < 1288831408 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be a clever pun about how non-simple that definition is < 1288831415 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see if i get it < 1288831450 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that seems natural enough i guess < 1288831546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was my interpretation up there correct < 1288831586 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, pretty much. < 1288831644 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might be some weird-looking matrices though < 1288831661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given R, i don't really know at all what modules over it are < 1288831756 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a module is something that it makes sense to multiply by an element of the ring < 1288831772 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, you can multiply vectors by a scalar < 1288831797 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a module is that operation, but without constraints like commutativity etc. < 1288831808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :module = abelian group + scalar multiplication by ring elements, with some compatibility axioms, right < 1288831834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1288831882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm completely wrong ain't i < 1288831895 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that looks about right < 1288831933 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just wondering < 1288831942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah just non-commutative ring < 1288832001 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was wondering where non-commutativity can be found if the vectors form an abelian group, but that place is the ring < 1288832067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose result is that, and from what year, are you a researcher, do you have a degree, do you have publications, and what do you work on < 1288832228 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"theorem about semisimple rings", ~20-30 years ago (IIRC), no, no, not much < 1288832306 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rereads and wikipedia's < 1288832317 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's the Artin-Wedderburn theorem < 1288832325 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never was much for names though < 1288832336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh me neither < 1288832358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1288832378 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't associate them to the theorems very well, so i tend not to care about them for that reason < 1288832532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was mainly wondering if that was something you had been working on, you never know < 1288832731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288832733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1288832796 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288832796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phanty revealed his age, he < 1288832797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1288832801 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's just a math course I'm taking now, mostly for fun < 1288833009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw you had less answers than i had questions, methinks < 1288833035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314 has failed his duty to oklopol. < 1288833040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oerjan's disappeared :( < 1288833044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1288833045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he hasn't been in here for like 10, 11 days < 1288833046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1288833055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which he's never done before, afaik < 1288833059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he has no life so a holiday is unlikely :) < 1288833085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so what was this Norwegian guy, name starts with V < 1288833093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: said you were there, norway hostname, lilja came in soon after < 1288833100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we stayed at his house < 1288833115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so you were the only one of them who hates us too much to log in :D < 1288833129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't carry my computer around < 1288833133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate computers < 1288833140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1288833170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so by "here to stay", do you mean you're not going to suddenly not be here for ages, or do you just mean for today < 1288833195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good question < 1288833246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well if it's the latter, i will make sure finland gets bombed < 1288833248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sayin' < 1288833256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1288833294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol likes bombs too much < 1288833453 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1288833474 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: indeed, I've been taking notes than memorizing the material, because I probably won't see anything like it again < 1288833489 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rather than memorizing < 1288833490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God. Rand Paul won his race. < 1288833495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rand fucking Paul. < 1288833508 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the USA is retarded < 1288833517 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: is there something wrong with Rand Paul? < 1288833518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be illegal for rand paul to have such a close name to ron paul < 1288833525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: nono the personal questions < 1288833527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: He is fucking crazy. < 1288833528 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did anyone pass a balanced budget requirement? < 1288833530 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i listed questions < 1288833533 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if he did, looooooooooool < 1288833533 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can blame Ron Paul for that. < 1288833542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why not rand paul < 1288833546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you answered one less than i asked, not sure which you omitted < 1288833549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his name isn't rand paul it's randal howard paul < 1288833550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Rand Paul is Ron Paul's son. < 1288833560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1288833563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO HE IS < 1288833568 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balanced budgets are totally wrong for governments < 1288833579 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh, just make it 3 no's instead of 2 < 1288833579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the fact that rand paul is middle-aged says something about how old ron paul is :) < 1288833593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Well, there was a ballot question on whether or not to forbid the state from *taking out any loans* here. < 1288833614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me that tapeworm one passed in Washington. < 1288833627 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh god < 1288833639 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you ever feel that most of this should be in #esoteric-blah rather than #esoteric ? < 1288833642 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me it failed < 1288833644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i propose that the state is not allowed to spend money < 1288833645 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: no < 1288833657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: none of us are hierarchy and organisation-obsessed enough to disrupt the flow like that < 1288833662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, most of #esoteric is off-topic. < 1288833685 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It failed hardcore. < 1288833695 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew < 1288833702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: 73% against. < 1288833708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your populace has demonstrated basic macroeconomic literacy < 1288833709 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what state? < 1288833713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colorado. < 1288833713 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is #esoblah disorganized enough? < 1288833726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: we like talking about random shit < 1288833728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want esolangs talk < 1288833732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say something esolang-related and interesting :) < 1288833734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: There were also questions about reducing/eliminating various taxes. < 1288833764 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and? < 1288833776 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you know what, I'll look myself < 1288833786 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what? you're in colorado too? < 1288833790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: For instance, halving property tax, halving income tax, maxing vehicle taxes to $100 a year, and eliminating property taxes on those who use state-owned land for a private use. < 1288833801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: All of them failed. < 1288833805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Yeah. < 1288833805 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288833879 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did Amendment P fail? < 1288833910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ballotpedia is cool < 1288833921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what I'm looking on < 1288833925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It would cost a small amount of money this year if enacted, I guess? < 1288833929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "Amendment P, which would move regulation of all games of chance into the Department of Revenue, would ultimately have the effect of reducing cost — or should have that effect....However, there’s a $116,000 expected startup cost, which in another year might be fine, but this year is not. Vote against." < 1288833938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the one below which just opposed all constitutional amendments < 1288833971 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you're even in driving distance. < 1288833975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Not too upset about it failing, though. Sure, it'd be beneficial, but it's a structural detail that doesn't matter *too* much, y'know? < 1288833980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Orly? Where are you? < 1288833986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least prop 19 was only beaten by a small margin. < 1288833994 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(54 to 46, rounding) < 1288833997 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: colorado springs, next to the interstate < 1288833997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(percent, that is) < 1288834011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Which side of town? < 1288834089 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: north-ish < 1288834089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kinda amazed anyone was opposed to Amendment Q. < 1288834104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Mmm... < 1288834123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: May have to meet up sometime for God-knows-what. < 1288834136 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: geohashing! < 1288834144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The Steamboat Today appears to be the only media outlet to disapprove of Amendment Q because of its strange no-constitutional-amendments policy. < 1288834158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Some of this fall’s ballot measures are more innocent, such as Amendment P and its attempt to transfer oversight of licenses bingo and raffle games to the Department of Revenue, and Amendment Q, which would establish a process for temporarily moving the seat of state government from Denver in the event of a disaster. But we hardly see the need for them. Why spend $116,000 to transfer gaming oversight to a different department when the current s < 1288834159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : seems to have worked just fine?]] < 1288834169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Aaand so 42% of people voted against it‽ < 1288834171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea who the Steambot Today are. < 1288834177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: PROTEST VOET < 1288834177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nor do I. < 1288834206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*boat < 1288834216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Pilot_%26_Today < 1288834230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2010/oct/20/our-view-vote-no-state-amendments/ < 1288834293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs version control < 1288834297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: It would be really easy for me to get whereever you are; I'm currently going to school at PPCC (Centennial campus) < 1288834312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was easy to change the VS2010 project back into a VS2008 project < 1288834348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. Few miles on I25 away. < 1288834360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate version control. < 1288834362 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad to see that Colorado hates prolifers < 1288834381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Only all that popular in El Paso County. < 1288834384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uhh < 1288834389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The land of fundamentalists and retards. < 1288834400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, and rural areas, but they can... Kinda be ignored. < 1288834415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/11/conspiracy-theories.html Someone tried to buy Britain! < 1288834420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The government, that is. < 1288834437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm prolific; I'm a prolifer, one could say. < 1288834533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA "megabucks" < 1288834537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its chairman came to me and said, "We have this extraordinary request to assist in a major financial reconstruction. It is megabucks, but we need your help to assist us in understanding whether this business is legitimate". < 1288834548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is megabucks. < 1288834551 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite so indeed. < 1288834661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I strongly suspect that the Queen in Right of Britain is not for sale. < 1288834672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Read the quote. It's... interesting. < 1288834679 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: google maps claims it takes 18 minutes to get to PPCC. I guess that's reasonable. < 1288834686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: [[I have had one of the biggest experiences in the laundering of terrorist money and funny money that anyone has had in the City. I have handled billions of pounds of terrorist money.]] [[My biggest terrorist client was the IRA and I am pleased to say that I managed to write off more than £1 billion of its money.]] [[I hasten to add that it is no good getting the police in, because I shall immediately call the Bank of England as my defence < 1288834686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ss, given that it put me in to deal with these problems.]] < 1288834695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Seems 'bout right. < 1288834708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Might be shorter from here to PPCC, though. < 1288834718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("here" being Woodmen and 24) < 1288834729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Erm, from here *than* from PPCC. < 1288834804 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What the hell? < 1288834805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I like how you're not shocked at all :P < 1288834807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, there we go. < 1288834845 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, that's even father < 1288834859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Mmkay. < 1288834869 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*farther < 1288834881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A random shady organization actually tried to *buy the UK*. < 1288834890 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be doing homework instead of mispelling things on IRC < 1288834903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It appears that this Lord is, ehm, off his rocker. < 1288834915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It is likely that he laundered money and then promptly displaced his entire collection of marbles. < 1288834923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lord De Mauley [Government Whip]: The noble Lord is into his fifteenth minute. I wonder whether he can draw his remarks to a conclusion. < 1288834929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like he's, well, just crazy :P < 1288834952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One hopes. < 1288835013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Reads like the setup for the biggest advance fee fraud in history, doesn't it?" < 1288835016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--comment < 1288835096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_lords/newsid_9146000/9146065.stm 2h34m in < 1288835135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[b. It may or may not speak to Lord James' sanity that his last noteworthy appearance was during a debate on immigration on 21 October, in which he referred to an obscene song about Hermann Goering trying to have sex with a kangaroo.]] < 1288835157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2010-10-21a.903.2&s=speaker%3A13880#g923.0 < 1288835292 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What's that organisation that OWNS EVERY STOCK EVER? < 1288835449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I forget its name. < 1288835458 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the government? < 1288835470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Haw haw. No, the actual corporation that owns 99% of all stocks. < 1288835479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Buying a stock without them involves actual physical stock certificates.) < 1288835491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(99% of all stocks worldwide, that is) < 1288835508 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm ? < 1288835550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1288835556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :them < 1288835559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Clearly they'er the ones. < 1288835577 0 :iamcal!~cal@70.36.237.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288835600 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1288835660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation < 1288835667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1288835675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, 99% of stocks in the US, but most stocks in other countries. Whatever. < 1288835703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They could hypothetically purchase a continent.\ < 1288835731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Instead, what they typically do is to put the stocks into the name of "Cede and Company" or "Cede & Co" or some such variation. And the broker might tell you that it is just a fictitious name, and will explain why it is really more practical to do that than to put it in your name. < 1288835731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with that is that it appears that Cede isn't just some dummy name, but an actual corporation that DTCC controls.]] < 1288835739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Looks like I believe in conspiracy theories now. < 1288835764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They're not really conspiracy theories if they're very well-known facts. < 1288835766 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1288835774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Very well-known, scary, scary facts. < 1288835779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. < 1288835786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also: Very well-known by who? < 1288835793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Every stock broker. < 1288835804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which is... the conspiracy, more or less. < 1288835806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Congress. < 1288835811 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The few souls who watch CSPAN. < 1288835812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Conspiracy theories are known inside the conspiracy? Zomg :P < 1288835852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, okay. The point is, it's not exactly a conspiracy theory if all the reasoning or evidence for it is a matter of public record that anyone could easily find if they cared to. < 1288835858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's instead just fucking scary. < 1288835863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hid in plain sight... < 1288836114 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Cede & Co necessarily a bad thing? < 1288836180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: They could crash the world economy in an instant. < 1288836186 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1288836200 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares about who owns what? < 1288836206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Several ways. < 1288836233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: "Fuck you, we're getting rid of our stocks because we like cocaine and hookers." < 1288836237 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE NEXT DAY < 1288836238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: They could simply fire every single CEO at once, thereby causing crisis. < 1288836240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where go stocks" < 1288836266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: They could dissolve every company. < 1288836281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: They could assume control of every company. < 1288836301 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hmm? how? < 1288836323 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, they are merely a trust. < 1288836386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thus pikhq was assassinated. < 1288836473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: IIRC, they're basically not regulated at all, but, uh, pikhq knows more about this than me. < 1288836494 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They do not own shares, they keep them in trust < 1288836510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Uhh, they do own the shares, the "shareholder" is just the beneficiary. < 1288836519 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, really? < 1288836520 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1288836522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stocks are in the name of DTCC. < 1288836527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "Cede & Co". < 1288836535 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they were just a trust < 1288836540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No -- they own the shares. < 1288836559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because ha ha ha why would it be something REASONABLE like THAT < 1288836822 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: actually, I'm looking it up now < 1288836825 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they legally own the shares < 1288836832 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, they are not stockholders < 1288836836 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus have no legal power < 1288836843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1288836849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq's looked into this more than i have, i defer to him, but okay. < 1288836867 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except for the companies that they are actually invested in, of course) < 1288836921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Uuuh, how the hell does *that* work? The "stockholders" actually have no rights over those shares at all. < 1288836956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are things even screwier than I thought? < 1288836989 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, they do < 1288836990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the thing < 1288837070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: *How*? < 1288837085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because Cede legally owns the shares, but does not have the legal rights of a shareholder < 1288837095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: *How does that work at all*. < 1288837103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system is screwy, but it is better than them just owning everything < 1288837120 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: exactly how it sounds < 1288837164 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It sounds like you're proposing a spherical cube. < 1288837188 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's very simple < 1288837202 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like having land with an easement over the entire property < 1288837254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking hell I hate the legal system. < 1288837270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep forgetting that it would allow for spherical cubes. < 1288837323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so Cede & Co. *could* just go and burn all the stocks thereby causing a global panic. But other than that their ownership is somewhat meaningless. < 1288837326 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spherical cubes? Like the TIME CUBE < 1288837343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah, what would happen if they simply burned everything? ignoring the illegality (is it illegal?) < 1288837372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It may be illegal, but the resulting hard crash of everything would make prosecution very difficult. < 1288837382 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot woot i propose we do it < 1288837394 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm guessing they'd just print them out again < 1288837411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we're talking abot metaphorical burning < 1288837415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abot < 1288837416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abott < 1288837426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flatland < 1288837428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Active Worlds < 1288837430 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# < 1288837434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we're talking Abott metaphorical burning. < 1288837436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, literal burning. < 1288837443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Who, Cede & Co.? < 1288837447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: In this scenario, they have decided that fuck people. < 1288837487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this is just another way that everything depends on a single person not going apeshit-crazy. < 1288837498 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't *think* the world would end if the stock market crashed. < 1288837506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another such way is, well. The President of the US could at a moment's notice end life.) < 1288837515 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so it wouldn't end if the stock market disappears either < 1288837524 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: or if the stocks are burned... < 1288837534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Yes, but the economy would crash *hard*. < 1288837534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: remember the great depression? < 1288837539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of like 1,000 times worse than that < 1288837541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more < 1288837542 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no :p < 1288837554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: All the money would be gone. < 1288837556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think if the stock market crashed an awful lot of people would die. < 1288837559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Yes, all of it. < 1288837559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1288837562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally, crashed completely < 1288837564 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, um < 1288837565 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288837578 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't single-celled life still live? < 1288837578 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: whatever, people start bartering < 1288837588 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least some of it? < 1288837602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stabs Sgeo to death < 1288837603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Radiodurans would. < 1288837618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: You have a terribly naïve view of the world :P < 1288837625 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288837634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Okay, so we go back several millenia. < 1288837636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can survive vacuu,? o.O < 1288837637 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: YES. it's your job to fix it < 1288837638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: That's "wonderful". < 1288837646 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, Radiodurans is fucking nuts. < 1288837655 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stock market crashing would not end society < 1288837656 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Radiodurans? You mean "lots of nukes fly" scenario? < 1288837662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be Very Very Very Very Bad though < 1288837666 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: RAPE AND DESPAIR < 1288837670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium < 1288837674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: The entire US stockpile. < 1288837674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it would end *western* society < 1288837675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bacteria? < 1288837680 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium < 1288837681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORLY < 1288837699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Bacterium can also refer to a single species of bacteria. < 1288837700 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no. we are retarded and would rebuild it worse < 1288837709 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Ilari didn't know what it was and didn't Google < 1288837725 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I know. And it takes A LOT of radiation to kill it (that's where it got its name). < 1288837751 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: suppose everyone suddenly just burned all the money and started doing things out of habit. would life go on as before? < 1288837759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yup. With nukes flying, radiodurans would be just fine. < 1288837777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that evolve? < 1288837779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: You are ignorant of macroëconomics. < 1288837809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: oh yeah 'cuz everyone would do that. < 1288837820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects Mathnerd314 is the naïve variety of anarchist < 1288837823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macroeconomics is scary < 1288837835 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't there also some molds that use ionizing radiation as energy source (found inside the infamous Chernobyl 4 reactor)? < 1288837837 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes; I've done math but not econ < 1288837842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yeah. < 1288837853 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: go take an econ course or two < 1288837876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: yes < 1288837878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: which is awesome < 1288837889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: They use melanin. :) < 1288837900 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nation States characterizes me as "Left-Leaning College State" http://www.nationstates.net/nation=asdjeklcdh < 1288837913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nationstates has nothing to do with actual political preferences ZOMG < 1288837933 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I've been doing it according to my naive views < 1288837941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NationStates is also naïve :P < 1288837944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a game. < 1288837956 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... < 1288837958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: This is a bit like using a gossip magazine quiz as an indicator. < 1288837958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, all forms of advertising are banned." < 1288837960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :niiiice < 1288837962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duct tape! < 1288837978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[pirate radio station] "THE NEW IPAD FROM APP[FZZZZZZZZZZZZZRKWRKWRKWKTEIOAJDIOJRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]" < 1288837984 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can't bring people to Sine? < 1288837988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, the police have been reduced to using duct tape instead of handcuffs following further cutbacks. < 1288838006 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, I never said I made sane decisions :p < 1288838008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, long arduous trials are held for the most trivial of offences." :D < 1288838027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Active Worlds < 1288838035 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION promptly gets arrested < 1288838036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you and all zero other people < 1288838043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION breaks free from his duct tape < 1288838050 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: obviously. I'm trying to show how little I know < 1288838115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Just FYI: currency actually came into existence soley because barter sucks. < 1288838126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[LOGREADING ME] play nationstates since you can't resist, nation is called Battletoadia < 1288838132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(developing from using precious metals for barter in lieu of anything actually useful.) < 1288838139 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because barter sucks.) < 1288838187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question < 1288838195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do the History/Government Style fields change anything? < 1288838196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314? < 1288838238 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wikipedia has a good description of how it works - basically, nothing matters; they're just indicators < 1288838258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: can you change government style? < 1288838260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows what i'll become < 1288838331 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1288838375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314 was then promptly shot by the CIA < 1288838389 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, you just make decisions every day or so < 1288838409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: yes but the actual Government Style field < 1288838412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have played before, just don't recall it < 1288838414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the registration page < 1288838421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sensible / Liberal / Conservative / etc. < 1288838468 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: read wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government:_NationStates < 1288838548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: does not answer my question :P < 1288838554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what the government description things are < 1288838560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about the actual text box < 1288838563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the signup page < 1288838573 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does war exist now? < 1288838578 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no < 1288838581 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no < 1288838592 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grah < 1288838595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So where's the fun < 1288838598 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 questions a da < 1288838599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :day < 1288838601 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grah < 1288838616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo has huge psychological issues with answering < 1288838622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: no what? < 1288838634 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean... that's it, from what I recall < 1288838642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1288838647 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I recall using the wirr instead of a currency < 1288838676 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name the currency, name the nation, choose a location < 1288838681 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer 5 questions a day < 1288838684 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And.. that's it < 1288838687 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the whole thing < 1288838693 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless more was added/ < 1288838723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nationstates.net/nation=sgeo < 1288838731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was .... from many, many, years ago < 1288838797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I bring regards from Region Inc I'd like to ask for you to join our region where YOU have a chance to take part in the government and more.]] < 1288838800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I JUST SIGNED UP MORON < 1288838812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A loose coalition of sartorially-challenged individuals known as "Let It All Hang Out" has called on the government to relax public nudity laws. < 1288838812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1288838861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nationstates.net/nation=battletoadia < 1288838863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEED MOAR QUESTIONS < 1288838885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets to two per day. < 1288838894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& with that, adieu. < 1288838895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1288838908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did I make it illegal to make racist remarks? What did I do to freedom of speech o.O? < 1288838947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You raped it, much like Glenn Beck. < 1288838953 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2710 days ago < 1288838972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's when I signed this nation up < 1288838998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides not to tamper with it < 1288839091 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288839255 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: have you heard of the wirr? < 1288839420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1288839508 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to do with "individual mutualism" < 1288839742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Judicial activism". Stupidest god damned term ever. < 1288839794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The US is common law, people. Judges have the power and the obligation to make law. Deal with it. < 1288840149 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288840311 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1288841207 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how did it get so quiet after elliott left? < 1288841427 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: c'mon, we're in the same timezone. you can't be asleep *this* early < 1288841430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that question answered itself. < 1288841461 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it did. :-/ < 1288841567 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288841725 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I'm procrastinating on homework ATM. < 1288841725 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite skillfully, for that matter. < 1288841770 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? that's what I'm doing too! (less adeptly of course) < 1288842041 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: when is your homework due? mine is due tomorrow. < 1288842128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tomorrow as well. < 1288842237 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: is it math homework? < 1288842270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288842285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will probably go into automatic-integration-mode in a few minutes. < 1288842452 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks ppcc course list < 1288842613 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is their course listing an 8 MB pdf with hundreds of crappy pictures...? < 1288842624 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the smart people leave after two years. < 1288842635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do the dumb people. < 1288842641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaving them with complete and utter morons. < 1288842714 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: calc 3? < 1288842721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1288842741 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, totally took that last semester :p < 1288842790 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at UCCS) < 1288842841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I'm a cheap bastard. < 1288842842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1288842914 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uccs even looks closer... < 1288842966 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but ppcc doesn't offer the course I'm taking now, namely Modern Analysis < 1288843013 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess I get shielded from price differences because D20 is kind enough to pay my tuition < 1288843061 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D20? < 1288843103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, UCCS and PPCC? < 1288843118 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I know of is the PPCA < 1288843138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "Modern" analysis? < 1288843138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: (public school) District 20; University of Colorado, Colorado Springs; and Pikes Peak Community College. < 1288843140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that? < 1288843148 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, thanks < 1288843171 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: pikhq and I happen to live within ~25 miles of each other < 1288843177 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288843182 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much is that in km? < 1288843209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~50km < 1288843216 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1288843219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like 40 < 1288843244 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're in math? :P < 1288843246 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: why ask if you know the answer? < 1288843248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I use the approximation of 2km/mile for ballpark figures like that. < 1288843267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: because I want to see if you know < 1288843289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I know that it's actually 1.609344 kilometers per mile precisely, but it doesn't fucking matter for ballpark estimates like that. < 1288843295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't do calc 3 for a year < 1288843298 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/ < 1288843299 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: google gives miles, so that's what I gave. tell me when the US has a bill to switch to metric. < 1288843306 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: old < 1288843318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: it'll probably be a referendum < 1288843323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I don't have a time machine to go back and tell you before your birth. < 1288843350 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that has a decent chance of getting passed < 1288843371 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it 4 am UTC yet? < 1288843444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Mendenhall Order. 1893. Metric has been official ever since. < 1288843500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Also, Metric Conversion Act of 1975. < 1288843534 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bash.org/?926627 < 1288843536 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnight < 1288843764 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ok, something that mandates use of the metric system < 1288843828 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: particularly for signage < 1288843833 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Until '98, a switch to metric for roads was planned to happen in 2000. < 1288843867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is we *keep fucking stopping it*. < 1288843919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately, industry has started to beg for metrication. < 1288843933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which might make it actually happen. < 1288843962 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay :-) < 1288843982 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I said, tell me when I get to vote / sign the petition / etc. < 1288844077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the military is exclusively metric. < 1288844319 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says *illegal drugs* are measured in metric < 1288844332 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll bet Hitler used the metric system too! < 1288844512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, he did. < 1288844522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Germany went metric in 1872. < 1288844633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear 1010 Wins: Please don't link to cybersquatted domains < 1288844684 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what about rel=nofollow,noindex? < 1288844696 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean an actual link < 1288844704 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They mentioned something in a story < 1288844711 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/03/geo-tagging-the-dangers-of-posting-pictures-online/ < 1288844720 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The message was from Larry Pesce, the founder of icanstalkyou.com – but it’s not what you think." < 1288844729 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess what? icanstalkyou.com is cybersquatted < 1288845114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well fuck. I can't find my textbook. < 1288845137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there. < 1288845189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the monster group scares me < 1288845196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monster group? < 1288845202 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we bringing that rule back/ < 1288845233 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: typosquatting, really, since http://icanstalku.com/ is real < 1288846035 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, the monster group < 1288846036 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah... If server certificate exceeds about 4kB, it'll overflow TCP window, leading to performance problems.... < 1288846036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a group < 1288846697 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting question: has the president ever been ill? < 1288846709 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1288846717 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when? < 1288846736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of your presidents died from health problems < 1288846742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lurn istry thx < 1288846770 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Obama might have been a germophobe and never gotten sick < 1288846855 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, the question was even in the news: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/27/AR2009042703597.html < 1288846912 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: can't you see that I was asking about Obama? < 1288847904 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nomics can have civil wars? < 1288847913 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've fantasized about Agora havng a civil war < 1288847914 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But.. < 1288847958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, that page is confusing < 1288848254 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF is Nano programming language < 1288848369 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposedly inspired by Vala and Scala < 1288848417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it should be named Nala. < 1288848417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Nanala. < 1288849768 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.11/20101012113537] < 1288850768 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288850780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! < 1288851522 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288854271 0 :balharius!~rareaapje@s5591646e.adsl.wanadoo.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1288854273 0 :balharius!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello DCC SEND "string" 0 0 0 < 1288854490 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... what a strange greeting < 1288854539 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, I have to leave for university now < 1288854987 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@m-28.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1288854988 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288855005 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@m-28.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1288855684 0 :balharius!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :K-Lined < 1288856797 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288857599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1288857600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1288863741 0 :ais523!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288863833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523_ < 1288863863 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288864073 0 :sbszulu!~dundubala@41.14.248.141 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288865994 0 :sbszulu!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288870692 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1288872292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1288873428 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-196.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288873506 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288874061 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288874137 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288874760 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1288874912 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288876302 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1288876810 0 :atrapado!~ro@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288878812 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1288879352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm would a bignum brainfuck without - be TC? < 1288879442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or effectively, a 1-bit BF with "set bit" but no "clear bit"? < 1288879445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think quite possibly < 1288879511 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, are you sure that is equivalent? < 1288879801 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288879813 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1288879871 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't see any easy way to show that answering one of those questions would answer the other. For a start, with an infinite tape of bignums you would have a larger state than with an infinite tape of single bits, unless I completely mixed up something. < 1288879942 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the states for the bignum case would be uncountable, while for the bit case they would be countable, no? < 1288882326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: given that [] is the only command that cares about the value of a number, no values above 1 could be distinguished < 1288882343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, something to ponder: is there a number exactly equal to the number of Google results for that number? < 1288882518 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1288882520 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :htkallas@pc112:/share/cog/corpora/google_ngram/dvd1/data/1gms$ zcat vocab.gz | egrep '^([0-9][0-9]*) \1$' < 1288882520 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15491 15491 < 1288882564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so that's not exactly "google results", but in their "one trillion words from the internet" database, the number 15491 occurs 15491 times (or in 15491 documents, I forget the exact definition). < 1288882628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual google results for 15491 are 2,300,000, though; the google 1T ngram corpus is a very small part of the internet indeed. < 1288882667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is the only number there that matches.) < 1288882853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288882926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well now, that's rude! < 1288884000 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1288884091 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, presumably his connection broke? < 1288884130 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it was a joke about a remote host being rude < 1288884139 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it must be some form of conscientious discrimination. I'll sue. < 1288884146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1288884154 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, he lives in UK not US < 1288884221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Then I won't sue. What's the UK equivalent? Maim? < 1288884246 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1288884290 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1288884325 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, know any really good init system? upstart has a nice syntax for config files and does the right thing when it comes to supervising. But due to being event based rather than dependency based it tends to start more than it should. Just because foo is up doesn't mean everything depending on foo should start. < 1288884369 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1288884373 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, no; I haven't even compared the well-known ones. < 1288884376 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systemd seems to get the dependency stuff right, and possibly also supervising. But config files are based on .ini like syntax... Which is quite nasty for this purpose.. < 1288884434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found any with XML configs yet?-) < 1288884438 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systemd also does deps inetd style when possible, creating sockets first and making things trying to connect to them trigger starting that thing (or block until it is up if it is already starting) < 1288884444 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it seems solaris uses that < 1288884463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, wouldn't be too surprised. It's an Enterprise System, after all. < 1288884472 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm looking for one that would work on linux and even a quick glance at it indicates it is very specific to solaris < 1288884481 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also license is... the usual weird one < 1288884517 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and systemd seems to have it's roots in the fedora/freedesktop.org caps. Which explains the config syntax at least... < 1288884561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess OS X's launchd has configuration that is apple-property-list and therefore indirectly XML-based, sort-of. < 1288884582 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm idea: use make -C /etc/init -j boot or such < 1288884606 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague notion I've heard of a make-based init system, but maybe that was a dream or something. < 1288884612 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, launchd does a lot of the actual dependency stuff and so on the right way. < 1288884633 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288884668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Ubuntu Linux distribution considered using launchd in 2006. However, launchd was rejected as an option because it was released under the Apple Public Source License – which at the time was described as an "inescapable licence problem".[4]" < 1288884676 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so they've even considered that. One wonders how seriously. < 1288884678 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main issue with a make based one seems to be that you have to ensure that starting a daemon actually creates a file and that if a daemon dies the file actually gets removed. Even if it dies due to crashing or such < 1288884695 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lack of supervisor < 1288884708 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would make it as bad as sysvinit < 1288884769 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upstart syntax + systemd features seems like the perfect dream < 1288884772 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"-- minimyth [a MythTV-centred distribution] is now defaulting to using a make based init system rather than an sh based init system --" < 1288884792 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somehow read that as "MythBusters-centered" < 1288884794 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1288884807 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... explodes every week? < 1288884818 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1288884845 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, neither sh-based one nor make-based one provides the critical supervising feature < 1288885021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not exactly necessarily for service-supervision to be wed with init, but as you wish. < 1288885052 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systemd seems to move a lot of stuff from shell scripts into C and then into systemd itself directly < 1288885055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds problematic < 1288885092 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what sort of stuff yet. But it could very well be stuff that only fits well into a redhatish distro. < 1288885239 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1288885401 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also means recompiling init just to change that stuff < 1288885997 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/M39RA.png < 1288886088 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: make based init system? wtf? < 1288886095 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that even work? < 1288886164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you know, make can run programs and all. Anyway, that was just from a forum posting. Based on the rest, I'd have to say "not very well" about how it works. < 1288886201 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "wrong tool for the job" lol < 1288886257 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does sort-of handle dependencies for you. < 1288886265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps not a very good fit, still. < 1288886585 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288886947 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1288887126 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, binaries produced by ghc tends to be large.... Otherwise haskell would be a nice language to write an init system in < 1288887241 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1288887327 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why what < 1288887743 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1288887786 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1288887812 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::' < 1288887815 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1288887827 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' < 1288887831 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1288887831 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1288887971 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288888023 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288888033 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288890110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288890352 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1288890373 0 :Zuu!zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1288891321 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288891635 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody please tell me Debian's netinstall thing supports WPA networks. < 1288892266 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288892531 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1288892662 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1288892733 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288892785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc12-sgyl29-2-0-cust185.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288892798 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I miss anything? < 1288892826 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, Don't you know your own mind best? < 1288892843 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, OK, you know about networks and stuff. < 1288892850 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288892858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Debian's netinst support WPA networks? < 1288892879 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, while I do know a bit more than I want to about networks, I don't know about debian netinstall < 1288892885 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's never used netinst for wireless, not to mention WPA :P < 1288892886 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, check if it has wpa_supplicant? < 1288892912 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah for installs I just plug in the ethernet cable < 1288893143 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1288893590 0 :Slereah_!~butt@ANantes-259-1-135-12.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1288893644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMBC got hacked, and badly. < 1288893715 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1288893901 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, oh? < 1288893909 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you mean the comic? < 1288893974 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1288894008 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theweinerworks.com/?p=86 has an account of it. < 1288894053 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, err, just reading a few lines in. They got hacked and *didn't* do a complete reinstall? < 1288894055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How stupid < 1288894103 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I look like one acquainted with security? < 1288894108 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288894119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm? < 1288894136 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be stupid; it might not be. < 1288894139 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1288894155 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as that blog post shows, it was stupid < 1288894232 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288894325 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288894347 0 :cal153!~cal@70.36.237.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288895181 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1288895298 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, have you ever used an xor linked list? < 1288895340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1288895348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have asked me that before < 1288895354 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I doubt that < 1288895363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you have < 1288895380 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, unless it was several years ago, in which case: "do you expect me to remember that?" < 1288895388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a year ago at the most < 1288895389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1288895390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1288895393 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1288895393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1288895397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i haven't, why? < 1288895448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I'm trying to figure out if they have completely died out in modern times. < 1288895463 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus my next question is: have you ever seen an xor linked list used? < 1288895467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288895476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor linked list = linked list where every adjacent pair of nodes has a link in one direction, but not the other < 1288895483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're lucky, it can be pretty useful < 1288895488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1288895490 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, heh < 1288895497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more complex code, memory is cheap, takes more cpu time, doesn't work with GC, doesn't work with debuggers < 1288895508 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true < 1288895529 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about the xor swap trick? Used/seen it? < 1288895533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no change in algorithmic complexity < 1288895533 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect "no" here too < 1288895541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has seen that < 1288895549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: seen it, probably; used it, no < 1288895559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh in a prog < 1288895560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like languages that let me say "a, b = b,a " :P < 1288895562 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, seen used in a context that wasn't about demonstrating the method I meant < 1288895562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*b, a" < 1288895571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288895616 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. < 1288895626 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, python does, doesn't it? < 1288895633 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc < 1288895637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i dislike python for different reasons entirely :) < 1288895648 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm do you need a tuple to do it in python or? < 1288895665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the a, b on the left isn't a tuple, it's syntax < 1288895670 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288895673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288895673 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO < 1288895676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the b, a on the right is a tuple < 1288895680 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, XD < 1288895681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no pattern matching or anything < 1288895681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a, b, c, d = x < 1288895684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unpacks the tuple x < 1288895687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :into a b c and d < 1288895691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a, b = b, a < 1288895693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equiv to < 1288895695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a, b = (b,a) < 1288895698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*b, a < 1288895701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can figure out the rest < 1288895725 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a, (b, c) = 5, get_my_pair() < 1288895738 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that syntax on the lhs side always makes me think of erlang and haskell. Because it reminds me of pattern matching. < 1288895768 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I wonder why I'm using python instead of one of them < 1288896042 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-173-196-169.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288896188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, know any good /sbin/init implementation? upstart is good except for it's event based nature. systemd gets most stuff except the config file syntax right, though it is very geared towards fedora-like distros. < 1288896201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://smarden.org/runit/ < 1288896215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or http://code.dogmap.org/svscan-1/ < 1288896221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1288896246 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does it do the "create sockets, start stuff on demand when they try to connect" kind of thing that systemd does? < 1288896251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or http://www.fefe.de/minit/ if you don't mind fefe software :P < 1288896258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: uhh, that's what inetd is for. < 1288896263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of whatever flavour) < 1288896275 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, um. Not exactly. Not when used the rather cleaver way when systemd does < 1288896282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which clever way is that < 1288896295 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this page explains it better than I could: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html < 1288896313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 0pointer.de/blog = the PulseAudio developer < 1288896315 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is a bit long, but very interesting and might be useful to you in your plans for new OS/distro < 1288896320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := idiot < 1288896339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes I know, but it doesn't seem to idiotic in this case < 1288896339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Lennart Poettering) < 1288896348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k i'll turn on my moron filter < 1288896366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: let me guess first -- is it so that if you, like, run startx < 1288896369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it looks for the x socket < 1288896371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x gets magically started? < 1288896388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, could be, but not primary that. < 1288896429 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Most current systems that try to parallelize boot-up still synchronize the start-up of the various daemons involved: since Avahi needs D-Bus, D-Bus is started first, and only when D-Bus signals that it is ready, Avahi is started too." < 1288896434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this... scares me slightly, that this is a "bad thing" < 1288896442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's subvert dependencies for slightly fasterness! < 1288896463 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it lets you do stuff like start dbus at the same time as things that depend on dbus. And things that depend on dbus are not likely to be the very first thing they open. They probably read configs first and so on < 1288896471 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you wait pointlessly < 1288896475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*probably* < 1288896493 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes but if it isn't then no harm done, the reading on the socket would just block < 1288896514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, like when inetd is still starting the service, the thing blocks for a short time < 1288896532 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, systemd fails however because 1) idiotic config syntax (it is based on the .desktop file syntax...), 2) too geared towards fedora < 1288896560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systemd is in opensuse now. so there's that < 1288896581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway, i don't know -- systemd sounds like a rather large program. < 1288896584 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, still it would be a hard fit out of box on debian for exampel I think < 1288896584 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO different from Fedora :P < 1288896595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and while concurrent startup is good and starting up stuff you don't need is bad < 1288896603 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the idea about sockets used that way seems to be from launchd btw. And os x starts fearsomely fast. < 1288896607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it gets too fancy you're just insanely microöptimising < 1288896613 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, and that is one of the issues with upstart < 1288896624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if the systemd authors ever thought "You know what, Avahi takes *too long* to start up. I have to start up *DBUS*!! I must rewrite init to make it faster." < 1288896624 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, systemd is overengineered < 1288896636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: OS X's startup times are greatly underexaggerated :-) < 1288896646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a typical OS X desktop system takes like 20, 30s to start up fully < 1288896656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes even 40s < 1288896659 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, to some extent. But you can interact with it before that in my experience < 1288896672 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, spotlight would be a bit slow and so on < 1288896673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of that time is spent in the apple-logo-and-spinner in my experience < 1288896678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't the fastest machine, but whatever :) < 1288896691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2.1 ghz first-generation core 2 duo, either 1 or 2 gigs of ram depending on when i measured it) < 1288896694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, My experience is that the time is spent after login in the bg < 1288896741 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, upstart does have that issue pointed out in the linked to page above < 1288896777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which issue? i'm trying to read it but it's bloody long and it could be a lot shorter < 1288896781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i just woke up < 1288896796 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, didn't you just get home from school? < 1288896825 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see the section "On Upstart" < 1288896831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sleep schedule is beyond the ken of mere mortals < 1288896842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including me < 1288896845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION /On Upstart < 1288896854 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so... what do the teachers in school think about you then? < 1288896875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone in the universe even think? is THINKING real? < 1288896885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just waking up is worse than sleep deprivation < 1288896886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving on, < 1288896897 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1288896925 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, easy to a morning person! I wish I was one... < 1288896957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Or in other words, instead of having a clear goal and only doing the things it really needs to do to reach the goal, it does one step, and then after finishing it, it does all steps that possibly could follow it." this either makes no sense, or upstart is crazy < 1288897039 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I looked at upstart and ubuntu take great care to avoid doing just that. Upstart files would certainly be shorter expressed with a dependency system instead of an event one. < 1288897047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not? < 1288897050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1288897052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's stupid. < 1288897072 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, apart from that upstart is very nice however < 1288897081 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is, to my eyes, a major flaw < 1288897086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deal-braker imo < 1288897111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it appears that my opinions on init systems are in a bit of flux right now < 1288897133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my package management opinions appear to have decided on "slackware's is *almost* complex enough" after i realised how hard writing a mega package manager would be < 1288897166 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a better idea that would keep the simplicity in upstart /sbin/init might be to have dependency syntax in the files and then have a separate program that generated the events from that. You could take advantage of that "caching" by putting it in one file (fewer disk access, and since the files are small, fewer read blocks) as well. < 1288897182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I like the nix package manager btw < 1288897199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do i, so do i, but have you seen the /nix directory? i mean wow complexity man. < 1288897201 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1288897212 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no I haven't, what is it for? < 1288897217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything < 1288897223 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/nix/store/packagename-LONGHASH/ is their root < 1288897224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like < 1288897229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's like 500 of them < 1288897233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so many symlinks from the normal tree to them < 1288897237 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh and make -C /etc/init -j boot would seem perfect except that it doesn't provide the crucial supervising bit. And that still doesn't do the socket-masquerading and so on... < 1288897238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i just get scared. < 1288897251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "-j boot" < 1288897252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1288897255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't -j parallel < 1288897257 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes < 1288897260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and boot is a target < 1288897266 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have shutdown as another target < 1288897269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: since when does -j not require an argument? :) < 1288897301 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, since the day they made -j without argument mean "no limit" < 1288897311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was not aware < 1288897312 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which was before I started using make < 1288897318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i am not sure that is a good idea < 1288897322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have infinite cores: ) < 1288897323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* :) < 1288897323 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a great way to make your computer shit itself. < 1288897329 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh and you need to somehow delete target files if a daemon dies unexpectedly < 1288897338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just make every target phony? < 1288897351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1288897374 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, seems a bit messy, would mean you have to have logic to avoid dual starting in some other way < 1288897392 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would defeat much of the point and also make the dependency stuff not actually work as expected < 1288897405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debian tells me that it's using "makefile-style [concurrent? i forget] init" every time i start it up :) < 1288897431 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wrt -j: booting is not a CPU bound task most of the time, IO bound is quite common < 1288897434 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a mix < 1288897442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine :P < 1288897446 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes waiting for, say, a reply from a dhcp server < 1288897468 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, with two such tasks and -j2 you would stall stuff for no good reason < 1288897487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember when /sbin/init was a shell script mumble fnumble < 1288897519 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and actually -j doesn't hurt a lot. Context switches aren't that important to performance. But with building software you would end up exhausting memory on most systems. < 1288897526 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would not be likely at boot < 1288897531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-j is optimal with bfs :P < 1288897556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gnash is now playing youtube vidyos!! < 1288897558 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, only for building software or other CPU bound tasks. < 1288897558 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choppily < 1288897586 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and -j would be a tiny bit slower with CPU bound but not significantly so < 1288897615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mr. McCane, you are... a douchebag. That's right, a *douchebag*." -- Hikaru Sulu < 1288897677 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, defining characteristics for compiling that are not defining for booting: CPU bound *and* memory intensive. Very little IO bound usually. < 1288897684 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linking can be IO bound sometimes < 1288897704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288897721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that quote: what? < 1288897732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UACK93xF-FE < 1288897743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which george takei is badass < 1288897871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/git/git git git git git git git git < 1288897925 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that movie, is it just me or is it mono on one ear? < 1288897940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't tell, laptop speakers, but it does seem so < 1288897965 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I use headphones and it makes it quite hard to hear when you only hear it on one ear < 1288897977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use mplayer or something to duplicate the channel :P < 1288898043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAY GUYS I FOUND A TUTORIAL ON HASKELL ZIPPERS < 1288898045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGEO WILL BE SO HAPPY < 1288898046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://learnyouahaskell.com/zippers < 1288898081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness. < 1288898090 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm sadly this does not exist: https://github.com/git/git/git (also wtf at that 404 image) < 1288898108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's octocat. < 1288898110 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(looks like a cross between an octopus and hello kitty) < 1288898113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hm3E2cGQE4 < 1288898119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, I did indeed say wtf about it < 1288898174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: We make sure to kill Sgeo every day < 1288898192 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness. <-- what? < 1288898224 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh shoot, now Vorpal's found out people are working to assure others' unhappiness, and soon enough he'll realize we're working to ensure his unhappiness too. < 1288898239 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MEAN, UH, NOTHING, HI! < 1288898241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's kill them both. < 1288898269 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yes I know you are all douchbags. < 1288898288 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course, it doesn't work. < 1288898288 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail < 1288898304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never put a douch in a bag. < 1288898311 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh good point. < 1288898318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whooooooooooooosh < 1288898330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!5ce98cba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.233.140.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288898341 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how is that a whoooosh? < 1288898347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, Debian finished installing. < 1288898350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many of your anecdotes start with "So I was eating this baby when ..." < 1288898357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Try goggling "douch". < 1288898360 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I know perfectly well it is probably a sexual joke < 1288898363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1288898365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU ARE STUPID < 1288898366 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First point of order: make the font nice. < 1288898378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Font preferences, set hinting to Slight. < 1288898378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1288898382 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god more fontophiles nooooooooooooooo < 1288898387 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Avoid subpixel rendering; without Ubuntu's patches, it has obvious colour fringing. < 1288898396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Jesus christ it lasted four lines. < 1288898397 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I did notice my typo yes when you replied and decided to play along < 1288898411 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You think I'm the messiah??? < 1288898411 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Even *Vorpal* has an opinion on what text hinting he likes, STFU < 1288898422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why, is nice subpixel rendering a dark secret known only to Canonical. < 1288898437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, it's just that Debian are overly-cautious and Canonical don't care about US patents. < 1288898441 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're expired now but whatever. < 1288898462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-subpixel slight hinting looks fine, anyway, just takes a minute or two to adjust to. < 1288898488 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a slow, horrible realisation that he has no idea where the font preferences are. < 1288898517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts -> Details... < 1288898540 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, didn't notice the details thing. < 1288898606 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, the subpixel rendering looks fine for me, but I'm probably just blind. < 1288898726 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw, at least on ubuntu firefox ignores that. You need to use ~/.fonts.conf for it < 1288898755 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1288898757 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288898762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No it doesn't. < 1288898767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to, ages ago. < 1288898779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Trust me, it can be very obvious when it wants to be :P < 1288898796 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other things: what do I add to sudoers to let me use sudo? < 1288898800 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it still does on lucid iirc but now the defaults are what you want. < 1288898803 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't notice it < 1288898809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Works on Debian. < 1288898815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You don't. < 1288898824 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, perhaps. < 1288898832 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I add myself to the sudo group? < 1288898837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> Manage Groups < 1288898846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add yourself to sudo. < 1288898870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: After that, I can tell you how to get the graphical tools using sudo as well and disable the root account password like Ubuntu; it's non-trivial. < 1288898890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But basically: < 1288898893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gconftool --type bool --set /apps/gksu/sudo-mode true < 1288898904 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/50-localauthority.conf /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf < 1288898915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf and s/unix-user:0/unix-group:sudo/. < 1288898917 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Save. < 1288898921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo passwd -d root < 1288898922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo passwd -l root < 1288898923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reboot. < 1288898927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ta-daaaaaaaaaaaa < 1288898941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: You need to log out and in again after adding yourself to the sudo group. < 1288899006 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do the second and third commands do? < 1288899032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, please quote them. < 1288899037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's unclear waht constitutes a command there :P < 1288899042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what < 1288899077 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cp /etc/polkit... and, (OK, it's not a command), to edit /etc/polkit... < 1288899111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That configures PolicyKit, which is like graphical sudo but ~capabilities~ and stuff. < 1288899132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You know how in Ubuntu when you used Software Centre it prompted for your password, but not with the usual dim-screen-and-ask-for-password box? < 1288899142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That's PolicyKit. In Debian it would ask for root's password instead. My change fixes that. < 1288899148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I see. < 1288899235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could be a bit simpler to set up but it isn't :) < 1288899241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything else is smooth. < 1288899269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: By the way, my recommended mirror is the Swedish kernel.org mirror. < 1288899269 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, policykit seems horribly overengineered < 1288899275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirrors.se.kernel.org < 1288899281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it is, but you also don't have a choice :) < 1288899288 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sad < 1288899297 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually, why do I need it? < 1288899301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's yet another one of the SELinux/AppArmour sillinesses, wherein people try and make Unix a modern OS and fail horribly. < 1288899305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because shit uses it :P < 1288899321 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it seems installed on arch too. And that doesn't use selinux or apparmour < 1288899332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You installed Gnome or something. < 1288899337 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I do use gnome yes < 1288899338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNOME depends on PolicyKit I think. < 1288899342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1288899342 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not gdm or such hm < 1288899353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> try and change something. < 1288899359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll probably pop up a PolicyKit authorisation window. < 1288899361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1288899376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Account type's Change... button is a sure-fire authentication dialogue. < 1288899414 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually nothing at all happens there < 1288899425 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think policykit is actually configured and running < 1288899431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, it's Arch. You don't expect them to test how dependencies fit together, do you? < 1288899433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: policykit is not a daemon < 1288899437 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288899438 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1288899448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like such a freetard. Every program on my system is totally Free! I can't install non-Free software without enabling a clearly-labelled repository! I even have freaking Gnash installed! < 1288899456 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it could matter that I don't use gdm or such, I use startx < 1288899463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288899466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing to do with that < 1288899492 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I know that usb devices won't automount by default on here unless I use gdm < 1288899497 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame consolekit < 1288899517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame international jewry. < 1288899524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THEN THEY'RE THE SOURCE OF ALL THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS < 1288899526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That and Ubuntu. < 1288899543 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh, clarification: I blame consolekit because I'm 99% sure it is the cause :P < 1288899572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not Jewish are you? *suspiciou < 1288899575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*suspicious glare* < 1288899581 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1288899599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew lol henry ford < 1288899748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1288899837 0 :n1c0b!~n1c0b@g115218.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1288899851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I fear GNOME 3. < 1288899865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: GNOME Shell, no thanks. The question is, is the GNOME Panel still going to be maintained? < 1288899868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not... FORK TIME < 1288899888 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm how does gnome 3 look? < 1288899888 0 :n1c0b!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288899900 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and gnome shell? is that the terminal? < 1288899904 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Just like GNOME 2 except... http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/GNOME-Shell_3.png < 1288899912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's what happens when you put your mouse in the top-left hand corner. < 1288899919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The panel, ordinarily, looks just like the bit above. < 1288899929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That replaces all the menus, etc. < 1288899931 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wtf < 1288899933 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc12-sgyl29-2-0-cust185.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288899940 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when will this be released? < 1288899946 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm going to have to switch to xfce < 1288899951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: GNOME 3, so 2011. < 1288899953 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who knows for how long that will last < 1288899955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, gnome-panel will still be available. < 1288899962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm 99.99999% sure of that. < 1288899974 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks? < 1288899977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The question is in the next few releases, if they try and stop maintaining it... < 1288899986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Uhh, that *is* exactly GNOME 2 except with gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel. < 1288900002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://vimeo.com/13797705 Here's GNOME Shell "in action". < 1288900009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No flash yada yada not my problem blada blada) < 1288900022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GrUtIEK1sk youtube version < 1288900043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, it's actually a mockup. But whatever.) < 1288900066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh, and Ubuntu isn't going to use it. < 1288900084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They're going to make their netbook interface Unity work on desktops too and use thati nstead. < 1288900109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that instead. < 1288900131 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, with an option to not use it? < 1288900132 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or? < 1288900139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And use what instead? < 1288900146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh my god < 1288900151 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when is this going to happen? < 1288900165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: And use what instead? < 1288900170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: When is what going to happen? < 1288900178 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, something that works like gnome 2 < 1288900188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when are they going to switch to that "unity" interface < 1288900191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All your sentences are ambiguous. < 1288900197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"with an option to not use it" -- talking about what < 1288900210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Uh, when GNOME Shell comes out. Because they don't like it. < 1288900214 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, option not to use it = not use the netbook interface, I mean traditional gnome < 1288900219 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the traditional panel < 1288900220 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1288900234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.canonical.com/files/masthead/ubuntu-light/light.jpg this is what it looks like < 1288900246 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, aaaargh < 1288900260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's actually funny how your only arguments about a terrible interface (GNOME Shell) are based on your terrible neural inability to handle the change of even a single pixel. < 1288900287 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually I do think xfce looks nice and that doesn't look exactly like gnome < 1288900291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By funny I mean that I was previously unaware that someone who thinks the right thing could somehow be more wrong than someone who thinks the wrong thing. < 1288900298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks? < 1288900333 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, exactly was there used in an inexact way < 1288900369 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288900387 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1288900389 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, is xfce likely to stay the same for the foreseeable future or? < 1288900403 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Xfce are merging with GNOME. < 1288900421 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, joke right? < 1288900427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1288900441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1288900443 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, [citation needed] < 1288900467 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc12-sgyl29-2-0-cust185.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288900472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said it was true. < 1288900478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, -_- < 1288900489 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not joking, I'm lying! < 1288900497 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, it doesn't have Japanese character support! < 1288900506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You just don't have the fonts. < 1288900509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: install ttf-takao < 1288900517 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ... < 1288900527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1288900550 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1288900562 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are you two fighting over how awful GNOME is? < 1288900571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1288900577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal is just being whiny and I'm trying to irritate him. < 1288900601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Anyway, you *do* realise Xfce changes panel design all the time? < 1288900605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Xfce 4.2: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Xfce-4.2.2.png < 1288900609 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you were whiny about the new gnome-panel replacement too! < 1288900610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Xfce 4.6: http://iamrajendra.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/xfce46.png < 1288900621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't whiny, I hate it because it sucks, you were just whining about everything that changed. < 1288900626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, see above two images. < 1288900640 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so everything that changed sucked! < 1288900643 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, same thing < 1288900651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, see above two images. < 1288900654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and yeah, I would dislike that < 1288900692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes mental note: if gnome stops maintaining the panel and I take up maintaining it, don't tell Vorpal < 1288900748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, would fit your usual style < 1288900796 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we can all agree that KDE is garbage, right? < 1288900806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more likely just to use the last gnome-panel release and keep updating the rest of GNOME if that happens. < 1288900850 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed these days < 1288900854 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it used to be good < 1288900890 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm twm stayed the same forever. Time to learn to love twm < 1288900895 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1288900941 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, KDE 4 is a shitty UI. < 1288900956 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That looks more like a change in the defaults more than anything. < 1288900958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All hail twm! < 1288900997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: It is. < 1288901002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so is using gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel. < 1288901019 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1288901037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gnash totally sucks < 1288901119 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does. < 1288901121 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but it is FOSS! < 1288901127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, and it sucks. < 1288901134 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I didn't deny that < 1288901145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does YouTube! Well, the audio doesn't lag if you're on a different tab, so there's that. < 1288901176 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, slow computer? < 1288901196 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, YouTube is good enough for me. < 1288901200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no. < 1288901209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, it's not hot on the CPU, but Adobe Flash works just fine. < 1288901222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Video/audio freeze for a split second every few seconds. < 1288901224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my experience. < 1288901250 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, problematic, but not quite *crippling*. < 1288901266 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the first video I tried has very quiet audio. < 1288901318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This appears to be a general thing < 1288901422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Check system volume? WFM < 1288901425 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My volume is at max, too; there's no obvious cause. < 1288901425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or YouTube volume :P < 1288901436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer < 1288901441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what is the system volume? < 1288901446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In your top-right corner. < 1288901456 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's maxed. < 1288901464 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm < 1288901471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer < 1288901473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worth a look. < 1288901486 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also maxed. < 1288901490 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurr durr < 1288901509 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, all of the controls in alsamixer are maxed? < 1288901514 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there's something called "Speaker" I just maxed. < 1288901518 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries again. < 1288901547 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, much better. < 1288901752 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, laptop? < 1288901768 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1288901790 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explains why it had such a specific name, instead of, say, "line out" or "analogue out" < 1288901805 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, also: just one speaker? < 1288901823 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, there were two controls. < 1288901833 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were tied, though. < 1288901860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, presumably one control with two stereo channels :P < 1288901864 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, huh, not the left/right side of one thing in alsamixer? < 1288901868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not tied if you use q and w or something. < 1288901877 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1288901883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly my Master here is just one channel; it was two in Ubuntu. < 1288901884 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, yes, that. < 1288901911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :

Forbidden

Your client does not have permission to get URL /search?q=x from this server. (Client IP address: 91.105.90.101)

< 1288901914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google don't like curl. < 1288902003 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1288902043 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288902058 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next point of order: change the theme to something nicer than Clearlooks. < 1288902121 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Grey Mist! < 1288902131 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curl -A Mozilla 'http://www.google.com/search?q=hello+world' | sed -n 's/.*resultStats>About \(.*\) results.*/\1/g;p' < 1288902133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work, dammit, work. < 1288902154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Unity is quite nice, from the default installed ones. < 1288902233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288902253 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, set the user agent to Mozilla < 1288902257 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait you did < 1288902261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hurr :P < 1288902286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now tell my why my sed doesn't work. < 1288902304 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greedy regexes? < 1288902315 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what are you trying to do with it? < 1288902320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1288902345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what's the sed for "go to next line" again? :P < 1288902356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleargh, I hate sed. < 1288902358 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh, slipped my mind < 1288902370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I want is "if this substitution succeeds, print the line"! < 1288902509 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no! The middle click doesn't work any more! < 1288902531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: ...? < 1288902563 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Ubuntu, tapping the top-right corner of the touchpad middle-clicked. < 1288902569 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't any more. < 1288902581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Go into Mouse preferences. < 1288902584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably something there. < 1288902596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe :P < 1288902654 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1288902694 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1288902751 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/zDzYt.jpg this makes me want to succumb to the minecraft hype < 1288902914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/ This too. < 1288902976 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, gpointingdevicesettings? < 1288902982 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(might be missing some - in there) < 1288903009 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it can probably set that < 1288903035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings < 1288903042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Today I decided to ask for adopter of GPointingDeviceSettings. The single reason is that I no longer have hardware (touchpad) needed to diagnose most of bugs which appear within it." < 1288903044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would help. :P < 1288903055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, heh :P < 1288903077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah! That's it. I'm buying Minecraft. < 1288903096 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, didn't manage to play the classical online either? < 1288903108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I could. But the Alpha looks so nice. < 1288903117 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I never got the non-alpha to work :( < 1288903122 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@k-173.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1288903133 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I could try on that non x86-64 perhaps... < 1288903187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you need the sun jvm < 1288903259 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not openjdk? < 1288903281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Download Minecraft.jar, an executable jar file. It might work as-is. < 1288903281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you run into out of memory errors, try launching it with java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame < 1288903282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, please make sure you're running the Sun JVM... " < 1288903282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the alpha < 1288903286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'd assume the same goes for classic too < 1288903299 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288903328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W T F "ehird" is taken < 1288903335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1288903337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's me! < 1288903338 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, except alpha worked up until login for me with openjdk < 1288903346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you bought it? < 1288903360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, my account must be super-old... I must have registered this when Hideous told me about it, and that was in very early days... < 1288903373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Alpha costs money, so presumably it won't let you in if you don't buy it :P < 1288903430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh of *course* I remember when it was single-player only. < 1288903450 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft dot ... jar!? < 1288903458 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's written in Java :P < 1288903463 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eugh < 1288903478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Winge winge winge, if it wasn't it'd be Windows-only. < 1288903550 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I decompiled minecraft alpha .jar btw. Pointless, it downloads another jar after logging in and getting a session token. < 1288903566 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java is after all easy to decompile < 1288903604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, clever, auto-updates < 1288903637 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff < 1288903685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: and watch as it doesn't let you talk to the server because you're not authenticated < 1288903725 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write your own server < 1288903745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's perfectly legal to use one of the third-party servers for free :P < 1288903747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The server is up for download. < 1288903753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, congrats, you failed at rebellion! < 1288903774 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then you just need to remove the checks from the downloaded jar you download < 1288903788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...??? Or just tell it to connect to a different server. < 1288903800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think olsner quite grasps how this works. < 1288903816 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that easy? I thought it tried to authenticate the client before letting you in < 1288903828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, dunno; the server is up for download < 1288903835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so is the actual minecraft jar < 1288903845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one would assume you're allowed to just set up your own server < 1288903850 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as those already exist < 1288903857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& i've heard friends saying they just use third-party servers < 1288903927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo, single-player classic starts. < 1288903975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet, my card can't handle the AWESOME < 1288904181 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff <-- yes < 1288904277 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, would you send me the data dir? just for trying it out you understand. Since I can't get the classical version to work... If I can get it to work and like it enough to play it more than an hour or two I would buy it. < 1288904281 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, gyaah what version of Debian is this? < 1288904292 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wasting that money without being able to test it first? nah < 1288904293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Um, testing. < 1288904301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Right now it is called "squeeze". < 1288904316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It is currently frozen; after squeeze's release, it will begin to be updated regularly again. < 1288904321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You see, I would but I haven't bought it yet :P < 1288904329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Making sure I can play it without ZOMGSLOW first. < 1288904347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also surely you'd need a premium account on the server? < 1288904352 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *is* a networked game after all < 1288904354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i... think < 1288904378 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean *if* you buy it < 1288904386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1288904391 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you don't need a premium account except for downloading it < 1288904397 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can play it offline after that < 1288904401 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by checking a box < 1288904439 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it says you have to login at least once but based on decompiling it decides you haven't logged in at least once due to the downloaded files missing < 1288904449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1288904459 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, unless the main jar have some additional checks, it should work fine < 1288904473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes distorted game music is due to appletness < 1288904482 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you got the applet to work? < 1288904483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1288904485 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how? < 1288904491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Step 1. Install sun-java6-plugin. < 1288904494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Step 2. There is no step 2. < 1288904497 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288904511 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is the partner repo right? it isn't in multiverse at least < 1288904518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, not partner. < 1288904522 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, then where? < 1288904527 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, on ubuntu < 1288904536 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: SUCKS TO BE YOU. < 1288904539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"non-free" :P I'm googling < 1288904546 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's in non-free on Debian. < 1288904550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, the sun-java6 packages have been dropped from the ... < 1288904552 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA HA HA HA HA < 1288904556 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ouch < 1288904560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Try just installing the icedtea plugin or something. < 1288904561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might work! < 1288904571 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, try that; should work just fine. < 1288904572 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well icedtea + openjdk did not < 1288904573 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1288904583 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the browser plugin may be a separate package < 1288904585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288904591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is with the sun JRE < 1288904605 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird that OpenJDK wouldn't work; it's almost exactly the same as the Sun JVM. < 1288904608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries openjdk himself < 1288904618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icedtea depends on openjdk < 1288904620 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1288904633 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the package does < 1288904640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? :p < 1288904660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: icedtea is an alternative jvm for openjdk < 1288904661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so. < 1288904664 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that means it will use openjdk, which doesn't work < 1288904666 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION icedtea6-plugin < 1288904675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, that's all icedtea works with... < 1288904678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Try icedtea6-plugin. < 1288904683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I *tried* that < 1288904686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1288904689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries it < 1288904707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Okay, yes, that doesn't work. < 1288904720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What about the gcj jre? :p < 1288904729 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I doubt has a plugin. < 1288904731 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sun-java packages are in the partner repo on lucid. But not sun-java6-plugin < 1288904740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: probably one of them includes -plugin < 1288904743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth a try < 1288904760 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I did a second u in aptitude and now it is there < 1288904760 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1288904793 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes no sense < 1288904912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bet it's less choppy in Chrome. < 1288904915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The following NEW packages will be installed: < 1288904916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : chromium-browser chromium-browser-inspector{a} libv8-2.2.24{a} < 1288905341 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: HEY < 1288905343 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: HEY PIKHQ < 1288905349 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: GO LOOK AT ECONOMIST.COM < 1288905357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Namely the doctype and MIME type) < 1288905519 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs a nuke < 1288905855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Care to explain? < 1288905881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text/javascript? < 1288905920 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, need to restart X server. < 1288905923 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288905978 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Kinda makes me look like small potatoes, DUNNIT < 1288905988 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288906193 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: text/html for XHTML. < 1288906203 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: This is broken and people should make it stop. < 1288906262 0 :Zuu_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Zuu < 1288906279 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288906320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Note: It's legal XHTML. < 1288906324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not recommended. < 1288906330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're actually saying "Work around browser bugs!". < 1288906334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "follow the spec". < 1288906342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, not legal XHTML 1.1. But nobody uses that.) < 1288906385 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's legal XHTML, but it has a lot of brokenness. < 1288906400 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Mostly coming from how even XHTML-supporting browsers will use their HTML parsers on it. < 1288906406 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc12-sgyl29-2-0-cust185.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288906423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1288906429 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And so there's a *lot* of invalid XHTML with an XHTML DTD and HTML doctype floating around. < 1288906432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: So your "graar things that are technically incorrect" argument LOSES because it's perfectly valid. < 1288906477 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, it's valid, but broken. < 1288906501 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Because it gets treated as HTML, and HTML parsers allow for a lot of broken shit. < 1288906531 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML". < 1288906540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML". < 1288906547 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet. < 1288906550 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288906585 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Also, it's invalid XHTML 5. :) < 1288906594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet. < 1288906596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML". < 1288906597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this < 1288906598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is not an advantage < 1288906663 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Being leniant in what you accept has caused a *lot* of fucking problems on the Web. It's taking Postel's Law to Postel's Braindamage. < 1288906668 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1288906675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, it's literally Postel's Law. < 1288906678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law < 1288906678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment < 1288906682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard links I give to everyone about this. < 1288906690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read these, read all of these, and then don't stop until you have finished reading all of these two. < 1288906854 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so did you buy minecraft or? < 1288906863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh yeah i buy things immediately. < 1288906868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Problem: What people actually do is "if it's accepted by $USERAGENT, that's conservative enough." What I want is for web browsers to kick authors in the balls for that. < 1288906872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'm still trying to figure out if the sound thing would be easily fixable < 1288906884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hi, I see you didn't read both of those links. < 1288906889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please read both of those links. Thank you. < 1288906902 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in minecraft? it works fine on this old x86-32 dell laptop with a pentium M! < 1288906910 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in the classic applet thingy < 1288906911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: linux sound sucks ass < 1288906915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stuttery here < 1288906922 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ubuntu, pulseaudio alsa < 1288906929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't care. < 1288906930 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pentium M < 1288906935 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not even intel audio < 1288906939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel audio here. < 1288906939 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some weird ac97 thingy < 1288906943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the problem. < 1288906951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also, perhaps meditate on this statement: "Just because I am a zealot, this does not mean that my zealotry should dictate how systems should operate, rather than far more important concerns." < 1288906962 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm sound in applets work fine on my thinkpad with intel hd audio < 1288906970 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, the dell is intel. Just not intel hd < 1288906977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel HDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD here < 1288906995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition SO HIGH that LINUX HATES YOU < 1288907000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: From those links, I get one thing: don't fucking use XHTML at all, because a conforming implementation should kick you in the balls if you fuck it up at all. < 1288907013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And you don't want to be kicked in the balls now do you. < 1288907020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay, so basically, removing the / before > makes Postel's Law okay again. < 1288907027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Even though there is no reason XML should behave differently to everything else. < 1288907032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Even though the only person who wanted it to was Tim Bray. < 1288907046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who unilaterally decided to break Postel's Law for no reason other than he wanted to, despite many complaints, in the formative days of XML. < 1288907061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I'm in favor of deleting XML entirely, so... < 1288907062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet -- if you remove that / before that > -- suddenly, your zealotry disappears and it's okay again. < 1288907065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For no reason at all. < 1288907069 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I just installed sun vm on my thinkpad with intel hd, no stuttering < 1288907081 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usual sound quality for the built in speakers < 1288907101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: See, here's the thing. XML is *supposed* to "always be entirely well formed". If you're unwilling to put up with that, fucking stop with the XML. < 1288907108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: By the way, did I mention? Want SVG in HTML? < 1288907113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You have to use XHTML. < 1288907113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Or: TLDR; fucking stop with the XML. < 1288907116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: HTML 5. < 1288907120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lolno < 1288907125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Lolyes. < 1288907131 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html < 1288907132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml < 1288907135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note how only the latter works < 1288907150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: SECOND ONE SERVED AS TEXT/HTML OH EM GEE CLOUDS RAIN DOWN FROM THE SKY < 1288907177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Invalid XHTML5 hooray. < 1288907186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: He should be conservative in what he sends. < 1288907197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Care to give me a variation on the first file that works? < 1288907202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Protip: you can't because only XHTML5 can do that. < 1288907228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: HTML 5 has it in the spec. < 1288907233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not my fault useragents don't have it. < 1288907238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, and XHTML has text/html in the spec too. < 1288907243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet you advocate working around browsers there. < 1288907252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT IS THIS? The zealot is hypocritical? < 1288907254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, never, surely not ... < 1288907256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: XHTML 5 explicitly has it not in the spec. < 1288907277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Congratulations, you changed the topic to avoid answering my question. < 1288907335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This only works in XHTML 5." "Well, it's in the spec. It's the browser's problem." "But you strongly advocate not sending XHTML 1 as text/html, even though this is in the XHTML 1 spec, and it is just a browser workaround." "[CHANGE TOPIC TO SERVING HTML AS TEXT/HTML AND REFERENCE XHTML5 EVEN THOUGH THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE HERE]" < 1288907362 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288907376 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fight! Fight! Fight! < 1288907389 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover__ < 1288907411 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :________________ < 1288907413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes: "[implication that this is a meaningless flamewar]", the most effective way to make sure that it is impossible to claim anyone is right. < 1288907422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay. The problem is not in sending 100% valid XHTML 1 as text/html, the problem is that most people send out somewhat broken HTML with an XHTML DTD as text/html. < 1288907426 0 :________________!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1288907430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Stop changing the subject. < 1288907439 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm not saying it's a flame war. It is a fight. < 1288907443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Uh, from what?O < 1288907457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Serving XHTML as text/html to serving XHTML as text/html? < 1288907457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It is an argument. There is a difference. < 1288907480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A BORING difference! < 1288907482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: SUBJECT 1: "SVG embedding only works in XHTML 5, not HTML 5." SUBJECT 2: "XHTML as text/html". < 1288907486 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an intellectual fight¬! < 1288907487 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*! < 1288907523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, subject 1. It *should* work in HTML 5. That it does not is a bug in the browsers. < 1288907527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You decided to disregard Subject 1 by replying that it is the browser's fault. I replied pointing out the inconsistency; as for subject 2, even with Gregor, who had perfectly valid XHTML served as text/html, you yelled at him to change the Content-Type. This is a workaround for a browser bug. But so is using XHTML 5 to embed SVG! < 1288907537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in Subject 1, you advocate not working around browsers. < 1288907543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in Subject 2, you VEHEMENTLY argue for working around browsers. < 1288907550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are, therefore, a zealot and a hypocrite. < 1288907589 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A zealohypocrite. < 1288907601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By the way, nice job on showing me the *first* case of actually *gaining* something by sending XHTML as text/html.\ < 1288907625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Seriously, I had no clue that there was any advantage at *all* over just using HTML. < 1288907638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why http://intertwingly.net/ is XHTML 5. < 1288907658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Though in this case it's minor, because the only useragent without SVG support is also the only useragent without XHTML support. < 1288907681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ...so? The point is that XHTML 5 *does* have advantages over HTML 5, in practical use. < 1288907688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Such as? < 1288907692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVG embedding. < 1288907698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html does not work. < 1288907701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml works. < 1288907729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And the only user agent that wouldn't handle compliant XHTML 5 doesn't support the SVG embedding anyways. < 1288907748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and? < 1288907762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*The point is that your complete dismissal of XML is wrong because XHTML 5 has an advantage over HTML 5.* < 1288907769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I am not talking about Content-Types for once, for fuck's sake* < 1288907770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... So it'll be broken even if you are liberal in what you send? < 1288907799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...?????????? < 1288907812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORGET CONTENT-TYPES EXIST FOR A MOMENT (try saving these files to your computer first) < 1288907825 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html is HTML 5, because it has no xmlns attribute in the html tag. < 1288907830 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml is XHTML 5, because it does. < 1288907837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVG embedding only works in the latter, in modern implementations. < 1288907838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XHTML 5 with the text/html doctype is invalid. You need to not be conservative in what you send in order to do that. < 1288907847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE YOU IT IS NOT ABOUT CONTENT-TYPE < 1288907857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SAVE THE FILES TO YOUR COMPUTER BEFORE THINKING ABOUT THIS < 1288907860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(THUS THERE ARE NO CONTENT-TYPES) < 1288907894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so there are a lot of user-agents that fail at embedded SVG. Where are you going with this? < 1288907921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't fail at it when it's xhtml 5 < 1288907922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1288907927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying that xhtml 5 has a reason to exist over html 5 < 1288907937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in reply to you saying that xml should just be forgotten about < 1288907960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That reason being that browsers are buggy? < 1288907983 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288907993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Seriously, SVG embedding *should* work 100% fine in HTML 5, but browsers have apparently not implemented it. < 1288907994 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1288908004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same with XHTML as application/xml+xhtml being preferable to text/html./ < 1288908010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the browser's fault but that does not make it irrelevant. < 1288908029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ironically, this works even when the XHTML 5 is transmitted as text/html, thus proving that browsers do *not* automatically treat everything sent as text/html as pure HTML. < 1288908035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, they treat it as XHTML 5. < 1288908054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is astounding. When they're allowed to they don't and when they're not allowed to they do. < 1288908081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUAHAHAHAHA < 1288908085 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You lose every argument FOREVER. < 1288908096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though actually... < 1288908097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think you will find that the HTML 5 parsing spec allows them to do it. < 1288908105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it is, by definition, extremely liberal in what it accepts. < 1288908114 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being that it accepts every byte string. < 1288908132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The behavior they're showing for the XHTML 5 *is* in fact exactly how it should work if interpreted as invalid HTML 5. < 1288908148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just don't handle the case of valid HTML 5. That's... Amazingly stupid. :P < 1288908411 0 :Erofa!~Erofa@77-239-186-35.static.vega-ua.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288908460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIz3g7pdHDM < 1288908507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ah*. < 1288908514 0 :Erofa!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288908543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The HTML 5 with SVG embedded doesn't work in the version of Chrome that Debian ships with right now. < 1288908557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And it requires manual enabling for Firefox. < 1288908567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So, the way to get it to work: use a newer browser. < 1288908612 0 :Erofa!~Erofa@77-239-186-35.static.vega-ua.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288908624 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't tell you why it works using the HTML parser on XHTML though. Seriously, I got nothing. < 1288908636 0 :Erofa!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288908643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hmm. Maybe they try to parse it as XHTML then fail to the HTML parser?) < 1288908650 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1288909009 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288909141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Being that it accepts every byte string <--- even embedded NUL? even 9-bit bytes with the high bit set? < 1288909176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There's no such thing as a 9-bit byte. < 1288909190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But yes, U+0 is accepted by the parser. < 1288909276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there is a 9-bit byte, see, for example, the C standard, which allows arbitrary bytewidths >= 8 < 1288909287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some systems actually use 9-bit bytes < 1288909289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not on the Internet. < 1288909294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, networks transmit in octets, so you'd have to be loading a local file < 1288909421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1288909563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still puzzles about that while !times thing < 1288909571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is such a great bug, I want to know what caused it < 1288909602 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What it did when you triggered that bug? < 1288909648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: it was a bug report by someone else, in a closed-source MMO that has since been fixed < 1288909655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the ridiculousness of the bug that drove my curiosity < 1288909659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to find what I wrote < 1288909713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively < 1288909724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only info I had, but it's crazy enough to wonder what on earth is going on < 1288909756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a reference point, "while !times 5 use spices endwhile" would use spices 5 times; that's the intended use < 1288909779 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No information what that piece of code actually did in buggy implementations? < 1288909814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: hmm? < 1288909835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: the bug was related to the nesting of while < 1288909845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the implementation of times < 1288909885 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I think I understand what the bug actually is, but I haven't thought what could cause it. < 1288909898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, go for it, maybe someone else can take it back a level < 1288909951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Y'know what? Fuck HTML. We should go back to Gopher. < 1288910070 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what's absurdly hard? < 1288910079 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Retrieving my Evolution setup. < 1288910094 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moving .evolution across did nothing, < 1288910251 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it referes how many times spices are used if you run those code snppets. Looks like nested loops run totally wrong number of times... < 1288910377 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And might not be simple bug, as it interacts with subroutine calls at well (both first and fourth should use the same amount, but they don't). < 1288911573 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288912029 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288912067 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to comment on something weird, then I realized I divided by 0. < 1288912071 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to comment anyway. < 1288912102 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zuh? < 1288912165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∫0dx = 0∫dx = 0(x + C) = 0.. where'd the C go < 1288912190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of clear that the division by 0 makes it screwy.. but not in a way that explains to me how the C disappeared < 1288912198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no issue for any non-0 constant obviously < 1288912229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION .. kind of imagines that it's a C that * 0 can be nonzero.. similar to how non-0 multipliers do it < 1288912238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that this somehow came about due to the division by 0 < 1288912475 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well, intuitively, the integral of 0 dx is a constant. < 1288912512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence me asking where the C went < 1288912515 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository. < 1288912548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm investigating. < 1288912615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out I don't know how to compile Golly on Debian. < 1288912629 0 :iGO!iGO@78.130.4.142.rev.optimus.pt JOIN :#esoteric < 1288912679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1288912726 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs more packages. < 1288912804 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, clearly, for any non 0 n, ∫n dx = n∫dx = n(x+C) = nx + nC and nC is still just a constant < 1288912810 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which we may as well call C < 1288912819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here we go. < 1288912820 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-196-169.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288912825 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION investigates. < 1288912840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb pikhq < 1288913067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkdir is failing; should I panic? < 1288913151 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288913333 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failing with what error? < 1288913440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mkdir: error while loading shared libraries: libselinux.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" < 1288913449 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, reinstalling libselinux1 does not help. < 1288913516 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g229028070.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1288913743 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288913766 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like most of my problems, it was my own fault. < 1288913783 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g230229134.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1288913808 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288914058 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288914195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note to self: Don't bother attempting to implement Factor in Second Life < 1288914287 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288914681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.w3.org/Provider/ServerWriter.html last modified 1995 < 1288914685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is a run-through of what is needed to make a www server , with examples from a suggested server for the HEPDATA base of Mike Whalley . See also etiquette . < 1288914776 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288914916 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g231048108.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric