< 1288656209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: SO IS IT LONG YET < 1288656214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rabble rabble rabble < 1288656427 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very long yet, no < 1288656574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the length of your general-purpose registers, it's how you use 'em. < 1288656583 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288656703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the label reads "General purpose register -- To be used for general purposes only" < 1288656785 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the "Enhanced Z80", ftr, is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80000) < 1288656803 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32-bit! < 1288656827 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, not Z80-compatible, though. < 1288656837 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1288656843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the eZ80, too. < 1288656847 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288656863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No on-chip MMU, but more address bits and so on. < 1288657241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the Z180 has some sort of on-chip memory banking thing, but I don't know if you can (ab)use that for memory protection or not. < 1288657293 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, long mode would change the behaviour of NOP to not be no-op, unless they gave it a special case < 1288657335 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("NOP" is actually xchg eax,eax - but 32-bit operations are supposed to clear the upper bits of the 64-bit register) < 1288657443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is fucking *ridiculous* how much better video looks when you go and calibrate your monitor right. < 1288657449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely, positively fucking ridiculous. < 1288657506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, any websites that can help with that? < 1288657514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: they do give it a special case :P < 1288657523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I think... < 1288657531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Say, does x86 actually have a specific nop instruction? < 1288657538 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing a page once... < 1288657545 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, they special-case it < 1288657554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/index.php < 1288657560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does have a specific NOP now. < 1288657575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that I have not the faintest idea how to adjust stuff on this thing < 1288657579 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really want the swap-with-self-and-clear-upper-bits you have to use a different encoding of the same instruction < 1288657597 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I wonder if it was the Z180 I was thinking of... < 1288657599 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if it's been special-cased for a while now. < 1288657688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I adjust contrast on a laptop? < 1288657694 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike the Z80,000, I can actually find units of Z180 for sale. < 1288657753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck! < 1288657761 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ZiLOG/Z8S18010PSG/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtp5ziQ9mm%252bAtzjy5qS0%252bme DIP-60 :) < 1288657762 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might Windows's built-in calibration stuff be any help? < 1288657768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can disable what the OS does, right? < 1288657768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's most important is getting your gamma set straight... < 1288657813 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I get the monitor's menu on this thing? < 1288657835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The gamma correction should be in your OS. I *highly* doubt your monitor can help you. < 1288657849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That totally must be what I was thinking of, although fizzie is absolutely correct that it's not clear if the "MMU" actually protects memory, or just pages it. < 1288657866 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I'm looking at color calibration < 1288657878 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"press the menu button for the display" < 1288657889 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288657924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, gamma doesn't require that < 1288657981 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DO NOT PLAY WIND INSTRUMENTS < 1288657983 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gasps for breath
< 1288658058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Fix that, you monster. < 1288658085 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad's asking me to look for the best mp4 player < 1288658096 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I can think is VLC, but he's asking me to look for writeups < 1288658109 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it even make sense for different players to have different qualities < 1288658110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mplayer or VLC. < 1288658119 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm gasping for breath because I'm playing a melodica :P < 1288658122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like for every other video format. < 1288658130 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Specifically, I'm playing ZEE3 on a melodica. < 1288658136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Nice. < 1288658143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While wearing a retainer because this mouthpiece is effing up my teeth X-D < 1288658197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do different video players even play the same file at different video quality? That makes no sense to me < 1288658237 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some video players actually do suck ass at quality. < 1288658323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What matters is generally how it actually outputs to screen, though. Aside from a small handful of cases, they will all get the exact same raw video stream from a video. < 1288658340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's some players with *broken decoders*.) < 1288658402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1288658426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : My dad's asking me to look for the best mp4 player < 1288658426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : All I can think is VLC, but he's asking me to look for writeups < 1288658429 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so? That's ridiculous. < 1288658433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell him to take the suggestion or leave it. < 1288658453 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's satisfied knowing that I asked, I think < 1288658544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anyone still maintains KDE 3. < 1288658613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Trinity Desktop Environment project, organised and led by Timothy Pearson, Kubuntu release manager for KDE 3.5[9], has released Trinity to pick up where the KDE e.V. left. It is currently trying to keep the KDE 3.5 branch alive, attempting to fix bugs during the process, enhance it with additional features and make it more compatible with recent hardware. < 1288658614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288658622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This project aims to keep the KDE3.5 computing style alive, as well as polish off any rough edges that were present as of KDE 3.5.10. Along the way, new useful features will be added to keep the environment up-to-date. < 1288658625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/ < 1288658641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's in Debian! < 1288658700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not quite. < 1288658706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a separate repository. < 1288658715 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaw. < 1288658720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well. < 1288658734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit of an unfortunate name, what with the nuclear test. < 1288658736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/pub/Documentation/Releases_3_5_12/sm_kde3_5_maverick_livecd_konqueror.png < 1288658851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's so bad about KDE4? < 1288658858 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is anyone keeping KDE2 alive? < 1288658865 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288658877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is KDE4 the Vista of KDE or something? < 1288658878 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The UI. The fact that it lost all the wonderful customizability of KDE3 while gaining ... retard OS-X-Vista-ness. < 1288658878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is bad about KDE 4. < 1288658890 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KDE4 is why I switched to XFCE. < 1288658898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The customisability hasn't been lost that much. But the applications are terrible. < 1288658908 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The backend libraries of KDE4 seem decent. But the UI is terrible. < 1288658911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do I have to get my LCARS screenshot out :P < 1288658917 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could vaguely -- sort of -- understand KDE users in the days of 3. < 1288658927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now everyone who uses KDE is just an idiot and I don't talk to them. :P < 1288658960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: *KDE SC 4 < 1288658963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a software compilation now! < 1288658965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KDE 3 was usable. It took tweaking to get it nice, but it was *usable*. < 1288658976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"October 30, 2007 (The INTERNET)." -- KDE press release < 1288658982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KDE 4... It's damned near impossible to tell it to stop sucking. < 1288658983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE COME FROM THE INTERNETS < 1288659032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The observers set up betting pools on the results of the test. Predictions ranged from zero (a complete dud) to 18 kilotons of TNT (predicted by physicist I. I. Rabi, who won the bet[24]), to destruction of the state of New Mexico, to ignition of the atmosphere and incineration of the entire planet." -- [[Trinity (nuclear test)]] < 1288659037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheerful betting pool. < 1288659052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm gonna go with 'what we've done here will cause New Mexico to cease to exist'." < 1288659068 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder who expected to cash in on the planetary incineration bet < 1288659083 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288659083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus. < 1288659096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka Richard Feynman < 1288659154 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what they though the reaction (ignition of atmosphere) would be... < 1288659166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Bad. < 1288659172 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obiviously something exotermic... < 1288659179 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to claim your part of the pool when you bet the world would be destroyed :P < 1288659225 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if it destroyed new mexico and more than 50% of the rest of the world, but not the part where you are < 1288659239 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'd be closest but not correct < 1288659246 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would say that that's worse than Hitler
< 1288659251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming you weren't there when it happened :P < 1288659258 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GODWIN'S LAW HAS BEEN INVOKED < 1288659260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "Destroying the planet is worse than what Hitler did. < 1288659261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conversation over < 1288659261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*did." < 1288659263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG REALLY < 1288659269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hitler, like, DESTROYED ANDROMEDA < 1288659270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't he? < 1288659280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH WAIT NO he just killed a few million people. < 1288659387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION performs CPR on the conversation
< 1288659449 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what's in all these reserved control registers in x86 < 1288659483 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use 0,2,3,4,8 but 1, 5-7 and 9-15 are reserved < 1288659505 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh.. CR8? Never heard about it before... < 1288659553 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the task priority register < 1288659886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :window < 1288660121 0 :window!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1288660269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288661746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288662594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: you're allowed to use them? Awesome. < 1288662598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More general-purpose registers! < 1288662605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait < 1288662608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowed to use them for their purpose < 1288662615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than not being allowed to use them at all < 1288662638 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1288662642 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :js> ({}).constructor < 1288662645 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err < 1288662697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor types out his prompt when talking to a javascript console. < 1288662712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1288662721 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps Gregor plays both parts < 1288662746 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Oh, I PLAY both PARTS *WINK WINK* < 1288662757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What Gregor is saying is: sex. < 1288662773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You know OSSv4? < 1288662782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What about it? < 1288662802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've remembered why I have a bad taste in my mouth about it. < 1288662848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh?\ < 1288662854 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They funded XMMS development for quite a few years and owned the domain xmms.org, which the XMMS project used. Indeed, it was used in the present day, I think it had the XMMS2 site on it, and many XMMS developers used it for email and personal webspace. < 1288662860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to determine if he needs to bring photo ID tomorrow
< 1288662865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then 4Front Technologies, developers of OSS, decided to sell it. < 1288662868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: To a cybersquatter. < 1288662871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Without asking the XMMS team. < 1288662878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They then emailed the XMMS team asking for a webpage dump. < 1288662884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://tobias.hieta.se/2010/04/28/what-ever-happened-to-xmms-org/ for the full, gory story. < 1288662917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oO < 1288662919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*o.O < 1288662929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been debates about whether it's ok to require photo ID < 1288662946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: To... where? < 1288662959 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for voting < 1288663000 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In NY < 1288663005 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found something about Minnesota < 1288663015 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wtf < 1288663019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I am pretty sure they have no constitutional right to demand photo ID... < 1288663022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The fuck. < 1288663031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Doesn't stop them. < 1288663066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Sgeo I take it you are voting for the Republicans < 1288663078 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I know you're joking < 1288663084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I'm not < 1288663089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't you?! < 1288663103 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're in your "try to confuse Sgeo" mode < 1288663107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You'd have to be braindead to vote for them. < 1288663132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So, wait. You're *not* voting for the Republicans? < 1288663149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not voting straight party whatever, though. Just in regards to people who I know about. Which turns out leaving me supporting all Democrats this election < 1288663167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey I guessed right. < 1288663173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long live the two-party system! < 1288663175 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't know as much about Peter King's opponent as I'd like to < 1288663179 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hahaha < 1288663205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that Mr. King voted against HCR < 1288663281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :US health care reform: Because if you don't look to closely, it sort of resembles single-payer health care! < 1288663333 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1288663335 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I'm aware, it's mostly regulations on what insurance companies can and cannot do < 1288663344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1288663360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus *fines* for not having insurance, unless I'm grossly mistaken. < 1288663373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, y'know, is sort of *entirely great* for the *horrible insurance companies*. < 1288663400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: On the other hand, the bastards can't drop anybody. < 1288663417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And all of this is entirely stupid because you guys could *just have single-payer*. < 1288663422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't the fines cheaper than insurance...? < 1288663425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, bit of an ineffectual "reform". < 1288663444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet, it's easy to see why it is how it is. < 1288663464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People think that *this* was somehow going to send people to the gas chambers. < 1288663466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ...and? < 1288663469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those morons vote. < 1288663474 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Killing the entire insurance industry outright wouldn't be good. < 1288663478 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making the fines essentially worthless < 1288663478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes it would. < 1288663493 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about good for healthcare. < 1288663501 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about good for the economy, good for jobs. < 1288663514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, as we all know, are more important than healthcare. < 1288663522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's a massive economic inefficiency, y'know. < 1288663543 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And a massive economic sinkhole would be better? < 1288663554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not claiming we can't do anything, I'm claiming anything we do needs to be gradual. < 1288663555 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's what we *have*. < 1288663569 0 :catseye!~catseye@adsl-99-88-110-173.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288663569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: We dump money in there that goes to kill people. < 1288663606 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. But it's money that goes SOMEWHERE. As opposed to cutting off the industry outright and watching thousands of employed people flail. < 1288663616 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently-employed, that is < 1288663660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The US is so fucked up that we have a choice between killing people with massive megacorporations and killing people with unemployment. < 1288663667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if the Democrats regain power, they're not going to bother fixing the fix of healthcare? < 1288663677 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. Exactly. < 1288663677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Because, in the US, unemployment equals death. Did I mention we're fucked up? < 1288663695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Uhh, they're the ones who wanted it so... no. < 1288663695 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1288663699 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Clearly what I'm arguing is to do nothing whatsoever. < 1288663701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Which is an improvement over the Republicans, who intend to repeal the fix and then go under a witch hunt. < 1288663702 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mean obviously. < 1288663707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes. Clearly. < 1288663707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There's nothing else I could be arguing here at all. < 1288663713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I don't disagree :) < 1288663716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You do realise the Democrats are only *slightly* to the left of the Republicans? < 1288663731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am continually amazed that Americans actually buy in to the two-party thing. < 1288663733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How's about a 10 or 20 year migration to a public health system? < 1288663740 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That makes sense. < 1288663746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or how's about this? < 1288663746 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferably closer to 10. < 1288663757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gradually but not slowly extend Medicare to cover pretty much everyone. < 1288663763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly! < 1288663766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insurance companies go "but with us, you get NICER coverage!". < 1288663769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They survive because of idiots. < 1288663771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's the easiest way to do it, yes. < 1288663774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then extend Medicare to everyone in one go. < 1288663775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be possible that the broken fix might be WORSE than no fix < 1288663777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, perfect. < 1288663783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It isn't. < 1288663784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insurance companies cry, shrivel up, and die, but only after stagnating over the previous few years. < 1288663788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG CAN I BE PRESIDENT NOW < 1288663797 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly what's happening to the music industry :P < 1288663802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: At least now the insurance companies can't drop you because you became too expensive. < 1288663810 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ...what's music medicare? X-D < 1288663819 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The Pirate Bay < 1288663833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The Pirate Bay hasn't worked in ages :P < 1288663849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can search, but their tracker is down and OpenBittorrent never has any peers. < 1288663861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're great for getting .torrent files from torrentz.com, though! < 1288663886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'll change my answer to "torrents" then X_X < 1288663897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: lawl < 1288663901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: By the way: http://www.devmazumdar.com/ < 1288663905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, but you can just generate magnet links from there. < 1288663925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As a gesture of gratitude for his long-lasting generosity (he “invested a lot of money in XMMS.org”, after all), we will be hosting the XMMS project on DEVMAZUMDAR.COM from now on. < 1288663925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you so much for everything, Dev." < 1288663943 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There will be people who delay getting insurance until they need it, due to ineffectual fines, which raises prices. What good is insurance that covers any expense if no one can pay for the insurance? (Note: I am not an economist, nor do I know to what extent prices would rise) < 1288663955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: :) < 1288663972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I also bought up zinf.org for the same reason. I want to use either or both of these brands to make a new media player that leads the market not follows. I know there are other projects out there but we can re-invent xmms." < 1288663980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit people, I bought your domain! Drop XMMS2 NOW and make my perfect media player! < 1288664011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: BTW, it's actually a tax that you don't have to pay if you have insurance... < 1288664012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Health insurance companies are more in the "wtf" category than the "economics" category. < 1288664021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since demand for healthcare is, uh, *infinite*. < 1288664053 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That site claims there's no guarantee that xmms.org downloads don't contain malware < 1288664054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And anyways, healthcare is one of those things that just plain does not function at all under free market conditions. < 1288664078 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There is no such guarantee, since a cybersquatter owns it. < 1288664098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...according to this devmazumdar person, or according to reality? < 1288664100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i should totally write my OS in Literate Assembly. < 1288664106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: devmazumdar does not own devmazumdar.com. < 1288664112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Try READING the TEXT on the PAGE with your EYES. < 1288664123 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should totally do that < 1288664135 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1288664142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Our dear friend Dev Mazumdar, from 4Front Technologies, sold our XMMS.ORG domain without asking the XMMS community. < 1288664143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you determine which is real and which is lying? < 1288664144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a gesture of gratitude for his long-lasting generosity (he “invested a lot of money in XMMS.org”, after all), we will be hosting the XMMS project on DEVMAZUMDAR.COM from now on. < 1288664144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you so much for everything, Dev. < 1288664145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The XMMS team < 1288664157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Considering that message is from the *XMMS team* and is also on their *official blog* < 1288664161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to be a moron to believe the cybersquatter. < 1288664166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: so have you got long mode working yet EH < 1288664176 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link to blog? < 1288664214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RTF Log < 1288664277 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, I'm still leisurely reading the manual < 1288664311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: fun, is it? < 1288664318 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably would've gotten it done without knowing what I was really doing by now, but ehm, that'd be less fun < 1288664354 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately the example seems to be right at the end of the manual, like 400 pages away < 1288664365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: lawl < 1288664368 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOD FORBID I just skip to it < 1288664579 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the manual keeps luring me into reading about task switching and stuff, which isn't strictly required to get into long mode and write some data to vga memory < 1288664834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.posix.nl/linuxassembly/nasmdochtml/nasmdoca.html omg this is the best x86 reference ever < 1288664950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i so totally want to write it in literate asm but, lack of tools < 1288664985 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have sed installed? :D < 1288665042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: uh, literate programming also involves rearranging code < 1288665047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: also: emacs syntax highlighting, etc. < 1288665304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I might try it with noweb. < 1288665313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: But really, I'd like to get into long mode first and I need YOU for that, slacker < 1288665460 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288665465 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION breathes
< 1288665471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I do that all the time. < 1288665745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I don't think I like noweb, LaTeX isn't really ideal for what I'd like to use literate programming for. < 1288665748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not hypertexty enough. < 1288665875 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced about this literacy thing < 1288665910 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried to read tex once, I couldn't find the program for all the text < 1288665911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I'm not either, but it would be fun to have a literate bootloader. < 1288665919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: oh, TeX's use is all very archaic < 1288665926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I mean, the Pascal doesn't compile on any modern Pascal compiler! < 1288665936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: And WEB itself is basically only distributed with TeX distributions. < 1288665946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: oh wait < 1288665949 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's safe to say that Factor does the opposite of literate programming < 1288665950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: you mean you couldn't find the code snippets? < 1288665957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code and documentation are in separate file < 1288665959 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :files < 1288665971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, you're not meant to :) < 1288665989 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course literate programming is basically designed for one person to write and everyone else to read... < 1288666079 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, I couldn't find the code snippets in all the text... and I'm not meant to? huh? < 1288666133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: You're meant to read the text, not skip past it. < 1288666154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's a book that just happens to be executable. < 1288666259 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: IIRC, I just wanted to find the tex interpreter to figure out how the programming language in tex worked without accidentally learning any typography < 1288666277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Knuth doesn't want you to. It's an ego thing. :) < 1288666295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Of course one could always have the typography engine and the programming language in separate chapters. < 1288666807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: huh, "xor x, x" is slower than "mov x, 0" now < 1288666809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did nobody tell me? < 1288666892 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov is still longer since you end up with a 4-byte constant < 1288666943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288666946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll keep using xor then < 1288666950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my boot sector at least < 1288666957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "inc x inc x" is shorter than "add x, 2" :) < 1288666966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't expect that one, but i guess it's obvious in retrospect < 1288667011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It actually depends on the CPU which one is shorter. < 1288667017 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: x86 duh < 1288667018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Erm, faster. < 1288667022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1288667028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in modern tymes mov x, 0 is faster < 1288667073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O' < 1288667082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ? < 1288667090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because Intel were like "lol xor is so rare, fuck that". < 1288667093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK only has 5 OTA analog TV stations possible in their system? < 1288667097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1288667103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Um, no, I think we *could* have a sixth. < 1288667104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1288667112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But the government went "okay, that's it" after the fifth. < 1288667123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And a lot of people still can't pick up Five. :) < 1288667130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Analogue, that is. < 1288667145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol, they've renamed it back to Channel 5. < 1288667157 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288667165 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-2925109575.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1288667212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: QUICK WHAT SHOULD I CALL MY TEENY TINY LISP INTERPRETER < 1288667216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STIGMATISM, SIBILANT OR INTERDENTAL < 1288667251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about IHEARTBRACKETS < 1288667260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The North American analog assignment currently allows for about 30 stations. < 1288667266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: *PARENTHESES < 1288667268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Used to allow for 45 or so. < 1288667271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah but you guys are retarded. < 1288667287 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I call them parentheses, I thought you guys called them brackets X-P < 1288667310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: () parentheses, [] brackets, {} braces, <> angle brackets < 1288667323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It is the only terminology I accept. :) < 1288667339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: [] can also be referred to as "square brackets" to disambiguate. < 1288667343 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I call them "curly braces" in spite of their being no other braces, but otherwise that's what I use :P < 1288667354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, right, that too. < 1288667370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if I'm talking quickly or whatever, I'd truncate square/curly. < 1288667396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OMG I should totally make my Lisp run on the bare metal. < 1288667402 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bcuz that's HARDCORE. < 1288667534 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curly brackets < 1288667562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Seriously though, 6 stations being *at all possible*? < 1288667568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think there's more... < 1288667577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What, do you have gigahertz allocations? < 1288667578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This was captioned "Tiny Core Linux 2.9": http://www.desktoplinux.com/files/misc/tinycorelinux_v29.jpg < 1288667583 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think so :P < 1288667589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But I think there could be more than 6. < 1288667611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... wtf. < 1288667621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You see, they're installing Tiny Core Linux from Windows! < 1288667630 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, a real screenshot followed, captioned "Tiny Core Linux 2.4.1 Yep, it's minimalist.". < 1288667637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT STILL < 1288667639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... wtf. < 1288667705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I NEED LONG MODE FOR MY LISPING < 1288667905 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOT SEXY SEX BITS < 1288667907 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/sex_byte_determination.png < 1288667967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote HOT SEXY SEX BITS < 1288667977 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :252| HOT SEXY SEX BITS < 1288667985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Doesn't seem like it. < 1288667998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You thought it was five before I said no :P < 1288668068 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only one sex byte there, it's the byte that's 01 on the top and 37 on the bottom < 1288668083 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the sex byte is repeated a multitude of times throughout the files < 1288668146 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Aaah, PAL-I has significantly more *possible* but the bandwidth allocation is such that you can't squeeze more than 6 in. < 1288668306 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/ten_crea_sex_bytes_and_much_more_to_go.png At the point shown in the file, I had found 10 sex bytes < 1288668377 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, hypothetically, that i wanted to code in the microcode that underlies the x86 code on a modern machine. what would i have to go through to do that? < 1288668378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has Sgeo actually managed to be nostalgic about himself? < 1288668386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: you can't -- it's read-only < 1288668399 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: also, afaik, not public < 1288668400 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hy-po-thetickly < 1288668423 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get a job at intel, huh < 1288668428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1288668428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux and FreeBSD(on x86 PCs) have a patch program that fixes botched CPU microcode. Of all UNIX (and UNIX-like) operating systems on Intel (and Intel x86-compatible) PCs there has been an ongoing requirement to patch erroneous microcode since the FPU multiplier problem that was endemic to some Pentiums. < 1288668435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Several Intel CPUs in the IA32 architecture family have writable microcode.[10] This has allowed bugs in the Intel Core 2 microcode and Intel Xeon microcode to be fixed in software, rather than requiring the entire chip to be replaced. Such fixes can be installed by Linux,[11] FreeBSD[12] Microsoft Windows,[13] or the motherboard BIOS.[14] < 1288668443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/manual/253668.pdf < 1288668444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun < 1288668454 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can patch you YOU CAN CODE IN IT < 1288668455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjoy fucking up your cpu < 1288668459 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HWWWWEEEEE < 1288668550 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, i need to build a pdf reader here don't i < 1288668620 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: evince is very nice. < 1288668634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epdfview or whatever it is is really shit < 1288668640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evince is worth the few gnome dependencies :) < 1288668648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: or: XPDF!!11 < 1288668664 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://z15.invisionfree.com/CC_Developers/index.php?showtopic=8 < 1288668667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my code < 1288668680 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the "Anyway, this is the script for the robot toy norn") < 1288668688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, except the stuff I may have borrowed myself < 1288668737 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is probably everything but the first three lines, the born, and the vocb < 1288668745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure thing, Grendel Man < 1288668759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, probably duplicating the physics stuff from the robot toy < 1288668762 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not Grendel man < 1288668767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he copied my code < 1288668775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he claimed it as his own though < 1288668781 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :confused AND loving it < 1288668921 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From that thread, Grendel Man made http://www.seeyou7.net/creatures/creatures3/breeds/grendelman/images/g-rainbowsharkling.html < 1288668945 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This will cause problems with the GUI and the Creature Selection Menu, so I included an agent by Sgeo that fixes this issue - or at least with DS." < 1288668999 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hypothetically i would probably patch the sse instructions or something else i could, in theory at least, do without (make sure everything on the machine is built WITHOUT them, first) < 1288669003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG HE MENTIONED YOUR NAME'#5;46 < 1288669016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: yeah uh, everything uses sse nowadays < 1288669019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: maybe the latest version of sse < 1288669029 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well you can tell the compiler to not generate it, right? < 1288669033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: yes, but... < 1288669036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: I would overwrite the BCD instructions. < 1288669038 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: Nobody uses BCD. < 1288669049 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also a good candidate, but there are fewer of them. < 1288669064 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i would only want to turn them into brainfuck anyway, so sure. < 1288669082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: Surely you could assign unimplemented instructions? < 1288669087 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it looks them up anyway. At least some of them. < 1288669105 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know. possibly you could. < 1288669119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: what about 6502 microcode < 1288669187 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that seems less appealing somehow < 1288669198 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6502's don't deserve having their brains rewired < 1288669198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: you were meant to go "OMG 6502 HAD MICROCODE?" < 1288669200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it doesn't < 1288669247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, I'm convinced that the bastards who designed analog TV were, well, bastards. < 1288669264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why couldn't they have made everything simpler and just had 24 fps content go over the air? < 1288669283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE4a#SSE4a < 1288669292 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :five AMD-only instructions you could maybe reassign on your intel processor < 1288669337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1288669391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... 24 fps progressive video. As already existed in large quantities. < 1288669424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone gone through their day without a single crazy music video advertising a long-awaited Lisp book? < 1288669431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will now fix that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc < 1288669775 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am now enabling paging in long mode and it fails when trying to read the next instruction (the page is not in the page tables) < 1288669793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: hmm < 1288669798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: even if the next one is an appropriate jump? < 1288669805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, simple solution: add it to the page tables! < 1288669835 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's *supposed* to be in the page table, obviously < 1288669848 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: WELL FIX IT DUH < 1288669855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: have you tried copying their example code more directly? :P < 1288670190 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288670210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: haha, oh boy; if my kernel gets bigger than 512k/1 meg or so, my bootloader will have to load it in unreal mode < 1288670213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just splendid < 1288670246 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear laptop battery: Fuck you in the ... thingies < 1288670264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: GENITALIA < 1288670283 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to think of the names of the + and - < 1288670289 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminals? electrodes? < 1288670307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1288670687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i take it it works perfectly now < 1288670705 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh... How many different *NAMEs DNS has? CNAME, DNAME, ZNAME? Oh and apparently there's proposals for BNAME... < 1288670717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FNAME! < 1288670731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: not real) < 1288671168 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there are only CNAME and DNAME. ZNAME is also a proposal... < 1288671311 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNAME? < 1288671318 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZNAME < 1288671320 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BNAME? < 1288671327 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kind of knows what CNAME is
< 1288671329 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of < 1288671333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.codlug.info/files/u1/gnome1_0.jpg GNOME 1 -- it's what plants crave! < 1288671379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: damn your BSD-usingness, I am becoming less and less convinced that advanced package managers matter. < 1288672440 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: long mode achieved < 1288672454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: awesome! GIMME CODE < 1288672565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: haha, my bootloader is going to start in real mode, go into protected mode, go into unreal mode, go into protected mode, and then go into long mode < 1288672582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: protected to get to unreal, unreal so i can load a >1 meg kernel, protected to get to long, and long to run the kernel < 1288673104 0 :Decarabia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1288673127 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288673319 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1288673360 0 :Decarabia!~root@S010600240171528a.ed.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288674063 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288674067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner has figured out that if he doesn't give me code, i am powerless < 1288674081 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so does the loading work again yet? < 1288674086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: yes < 1288674097 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i interested in what the problem was? < 1288674100 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://gist.github.com/657234 < 1288674127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: i'm stupid and olsner isn't < 1288674137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: some stupid parameter to the call < 1288674142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288674187 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's really QUITE late now < 1288674262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1288674266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if i get < 1288674267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUGS < 1288674270 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy code stealing and good night :) < 1288674286 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: just ... figure it out :) < 1288674321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: PAH! < 1288674512 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288674564 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: surely you mean: PAE! < 1288674574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: i'm tired shut up :| < 1288674577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1288674577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1288674578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly < 1288674682 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: This package has set PKG_FAIL_REASON: < 1288674682 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: openmotif-2.3.1nb4 has an unacceptable license condition: < 1288674683 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: openmotif-license < 1288674698 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEAR PACKAGE YOUR LICENSE IS IN ERROR < 1288674736 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah! < 1288674739 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's GPL v2! < 1288674746 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no wait < 1288674770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: package managers; who neds em < 1288674829 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what i'm thinking right now, certainly < 1288674835 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saving me legally from myself < 1288674870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: herz what im thinkin, in tired-shorthand; < 1288674886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: /usr/src. ok. buncha directories inside, dey pkgs. < 1288674924 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: makefile. "all" rule, depend on like the-software-version/{configure,Makefile}, and dey just call dose. rul for dose configure and makefile, is, we download software tarball from internet, and unpack. < 1288674942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: and der a download-binary target, which does same for binary tarball which has makefile that install and etc. < 1288674945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: therefore win < 1288674963 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkgsrc+bin < 1288675006 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, as long as you can cleanly remove what you install, i don't care about the rest < 1288675111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: oh yaeh make uninstall target. < 1288675122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: with bianry package all this is much simpler < 1288675128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :install: tar xf, run shell script < 1288675139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uninstall: remove all non-config files from some manifest, run shell script < 1288675148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: then we just plug that into a ports-style autocompile system < 1288675428 0 :evincar!~chatzilla@daffa.rh.rit.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1288675476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ah! the frontispiece! < 1288675479 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ni hao, shijie. < 1288675498 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Beg coming your pardon? < 1288675504 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again! < 1288675507 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: CRETAN < 1288675509 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left out a word. < 1288675515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thou art'st'st'st'st's't'st'st'st; unbulate < 1288675527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :track the pititulancers oft'x blaeæit; < 1288675534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :triuek th'vrandermoore < 1288675544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upön talyisemens < 1288675549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kast'shure. < 1288675556 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you writing in some esolang we don't know yet? :P < 1288675577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: VERILY! crite understambulaters, < 1288675581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they wuld, < 1288675592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creese down t'tirednes wht'sgrinnin' < 1288675603 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how was your weekend? < 1288675662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiktended < 1288675743 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm starting a site some folk on here might find interesting and useful. < 1288675784 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to do a final project for my Web Design class, and I figured it would be more beneficial to myself and mankind to make something other than a personal page that'll rot on the school server. < 1288675825 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's a site for vote-based advertisement of new open-source projects, so small developers can gain exposure. < 1288675892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too practical, lame! < 1288675897 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get an icon, a URL, and a Twitter-sized description. You can upvote or downvote projects. Receiving a downvote loses you points, and giving one loses you a few fewer. Receiving upvotes on your project or your userpage gives you points. < 1288675922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. < 1288675933 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Projects and users are ranked by newest, most popular, and "hottest", that is, both new and popular. < 1288675978 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing quite like it out there. < 1288675985 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think I have a good niche. < 1288675985 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there is a reddit for that. < 1288676019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i can't think i'd ever browse it -- it sounds like a site of ads, admittedly user-controlled ads < 1288676044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a good idea to go out in search of software "just because". < 1288676055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :software should be built to serve a use and people who want that use should use the software. < 1288676065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure i approve of the idea of showcasing software just because it exists. < 1288676074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the kind of thing i expect from commercial software < 1288676109 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but if you want people to work on your software with you, but aren't established yet, what do you do? Sourceforge and freshmeat and even slightly smaller sites such as Google Code and github aren't geared toward exposure for new projects. < 1288676112 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't approve of showcasing PSOX? < 1288676137 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds a bridge to duck under
< 1288676150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The kind of people who would read the site are, I feel, not the kind of people who would make good software contributors. < 1288676166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Also, contributing to software you don't have a need for is an exercise in half-assedness. < 1288676178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better is to find a community or group of people with the need, and look for contributors there. < 1288676223 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can't say what sort of people would use the site until it's actually been run. (Never optimise without profiling?) And who says you'd contribute to software you don't have a need for? You'd contribute to software that interests you because you have a need for it. < 1288676252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: then the software developer should ask for contributors on a relevant forum < 1288676257 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even just see what the open-source community is up to and take a ride on the bleeding edge. < 1288676257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you're saying that the usecase is < 1288676265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programmer who has a need for X reads this site on a regular basis < 1288676271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just happens to see some software that does X < 1288676273 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and decides to contribute < 1288676278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds like a very contrived usage scenario. < 1288676282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Or even just see what the open-source community is up to and take a ride on the bleeding edge. < 1288676285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so software for software's sake. < 1288676321 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and gaining exposure, promoting good new ideas. < 1288676325 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how this is just about attracting contributors; users would also be part of the audience < 1288676332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :software for software's sake is the reason software sucks < 1288676334 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: Right you are. < 1288676340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: because users already have a way of finding software to meet need X < 1288676356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's called freshmeat, google, etc.; okay, they're not very *good*, but the basic model can be improved upon. < 1288676362 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes users don't know what their "needs" even are < 1288676363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this site would merely showcase new software < 1288676366 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one *needs* a game < 1288676372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: ok, so have a site for games < 1288676387 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just an example < 1288676394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: what's your non-game example? < 1288676440 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need one? < 1288676446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: yes < 1288676451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because games are very different from other software < 1288676514 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's what tags are for. Let a folksonomy develop. < 1288676523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"folksonomy" please never use this word... < 1288676524 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm just doing this for school, as an experiment. If it takes off, bully. < 1288676528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok, so it's basically freshmeat? < 1288676536 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: WEB 2.0 AJAX CLOUD < 1288676545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a semi-pointless top list of all projects < 1288676548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of thing < 1288676585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION yawns
< 1288676593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must. Stay. Awake. To. Normalise. Sleep. Schedule. < 1288676630 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but with subtly different motivation and approach, and not targeted toward just "unix and cross-platform" software. < 1288676652 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm i just saw a piece of software on freshmeat that was windows/os x only. < 1288676708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pumps more liquid sugar + caffeine into system
< 1288676708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must < 1288676709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stay < 1288676709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awake < 1288676712 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blinks* < 1288676718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blink a lot! < 1288676730 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So...only Windows or OSX. That crosses two platforms, one of which is Unix-based. < 1288676739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so basically you want windows-only software too < 1288676743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or uhhhh HAIKU! < 1288676746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS/2! < 1288676747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS! < 1288676800 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more like Ohloh, except less like a wiki and more like Twitter. < 1288676816 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I'm not just trying to sound "Web 2.0" here. I think it's got it's place. < 1288676822 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck on your project, evincar. hope you get a good grade < 1288676833 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1288676836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: i'm not trying to disparage his work or anything < 1288676836 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catseye: Cheers, that's all I'm asking. < 1288676843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just critiquing the idea from a standalone viewpoint < 1288676845 0 :catseye!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1288676847 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I realise that. I'm glad for the critique. < 1288676857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: the thing you're missing, i think, is that twitter is a vast cloud of meaningless noise :) < 1288676868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what you have said sounds a *lot* more like reddit to me than twitter btw < 1288676879 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but a *very active* vast cloud of meaningless noise. < 1288676884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i guess, you could say that what you want is the reddit to freshmeat's slashdot. < 1288676891 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ohloh < 1288676893 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hhgrrr. < 1288676893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this accurate? < 1288676899 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsing analogy... < 1288676911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: freshmeat's descriptions of software are very long and it's "heavy-weight" < 1288676917 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1288676919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no user input as to the order of things on the front page < 1288676920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1288676925 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah, basically. < 1288676928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas you want short descriptions and user control < 1288676931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1288676933 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very user-driven, yes. < 1288676938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you pull it off, it might be worthwhile < 1288676940 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Centred around the idea of building a community. < 1288676942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i'll use it though :) < 1288676950 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, whatever. You'll know about it. < 1288676954 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's important, too. < 1288676961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, hey, i don't even like using most software that isn't mine < 1288676972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i'm a cynical bastard and hate software < 1288676981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man what the hell am i going to be like when i'm 20 < 1288676984 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you have Not Invented Here Disorder? :P < 1288676988 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How old are you? < 1288676988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Syndrome < 1288676992 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a syndrome! < 1288676998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: 15 and sleepy. < 1288677002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sleepiness is part of age, i swear) < 1288677017 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to coin a new term. The Syndrome refers to a company doing it. :P < 1288677024 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition to a person. < 1288677058 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm 19, and way less cynical than I was when I was 15. < 1288677063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I do have NIH but I also have a separate hatred of most software :) < 1288677072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bring back Lisp machines! or don't, because they were flawed, but < 1288677076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure as hell better than what we have today < 1288677086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks apple! thanks microsoft! thanks ib motherfuckin' m! < 1288677089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION yawn
< 1288677099 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're cheeky. How long've you been awake? < 1288677113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since uh < 1288677116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:00 or so < 1288677118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 17:30 < 1288677123 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what time is it there now? < 1288677124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is now 04:51 < 1288677135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to stay awake until 00:00 or so < 1288677140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm normalising! hahahaha yeah right < 1288677155 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "that's not so bad", but it's not not so bad. < 1288677165 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not *so* bad. < 1288677167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should have gone to bed about, uh, now, but my probable sleeping disorder hates me < 1288677176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :todo: melatonin < 1288677178 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And your urge to drink caffeine. < 1288677188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: in *this* case it's intentional < 1288677198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to stop me falling asleep before i want to < 1288677206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be disastrous < 1288677217 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's just before 1:00 here, and I'm going strong since I woke up late today. < 1288677239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually as tired as it seems. < 1288677249 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And spent the rest of the day catching up on homework for the class I missed this morning. < 1288677250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was a little while ago, but I've perked back up. < 1288677262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend to eat a damn good breakfast when it's morning to propel me through the day. < 1288677264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Porridge, perhaps. < 1288677281 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may take a run to the store and get an energy drink before it closes in an hour. < 1288677297 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure, though, since I have 7 hours of class ahead of me. < 1288677305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(related fun fact to a few lines ago -- melatonin is actually prescription only in the uk! can you believe that? if i cared about stupid laws like that, i'd need a *prescription* to legally own a hormone present in my own body at all times) < 1288677325 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wow.) < 1288677337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :australia too < 1288677344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the us, it's not even a drug, it's a "dietary supplement" :) < 1288677350 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm a lightweight, so half your typical energy drink, plus plenty of water, is more than enough to keep me awake for an extra 24 hours. < 1288677362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yeah i should probably down one of those ridiculously unhealthy new "shot" energy drinks < 1288677375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that taste like blended batteries < 1288677381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :round about now < 1288677384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, have none! < 1288677400 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my liver hates me < 1288677408 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, US law has some issues with drug laws. If you label it as a "supplement" it doesn't need to be evaluated under the Food and Drug Administration's stringent pharmacological requirements. < 1288677417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dos2unix $1 &> /dev/null && \ < 1288677417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : unix2dos $1 &> /dev/null && \ < 1288677417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : notepad $1 && \ < 1288677417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dos2unix $1 &> /dev/null &" < 1288677419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no words < 1288677431 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So vitamins and homeopathic remedies are all labelled accordingly. < 1288677436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yeah, that's why melatonin is such too < 1288677448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the idea of FDA evaluating a natural hormone to see if it's safe. < 1288677472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As melatonin has been determined unfit for pharmaceutical use, its production is now prohibited. Consequently, reproduction is now illegal." < 1288677505 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, hormones aren't the worst things to mess with, but messing with them *is* messing with yourself. < 1288677555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: well, yeah. low melatonin levels aren't uncommon though, and i found several studies a while back < 1288677560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one, in short term adult use -- no side effects at all < 1288677565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another, in *long term* *child* use -- no side effects at all < 1288677569 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I take growth hormones along with an exercise regime, I'll become far more bulky than I would just exercising normally. < 1288677587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the side effects are "you get a headache and oversleep" < 1288677588 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, melatonin in particular is benign. < 1288677589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of an overdose < 1288677594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh, i'd have trouble thinking of a scenario in which bad things would happen :) < 1288677597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288677604 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, miss an important event? < 1288677611 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1288677620 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so serious compared to, y'know, meth. < 1288677641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :METH + MELATONIN < 1288677643 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRAZIEST SLEEP EVER < 1288677798 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I've had some pretty crazy sleep. < 1288677813 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I'm all about fucking with the relationship between sleep, waking, madness, and death. < 1288677822 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am totally not about that < 1288677837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not like blurring the line between waking and death :) < 1288677838 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm fond of existential bullshit. It's a hobby. < 1288677845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can tell < 1288677885 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometime, if you get the chance, you ought to stay awake for a few days. It's a very interesting experience. < 1288677897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: my max was about 40 hours < 1288677906 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i almost physically collapsed < 1288677958 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my record was pushing 70, which is still nothing compared to, say, the world record. < 1288677991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world record probably ended in death < 1288678023 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder%29 < 1288678032 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so! And he was only 17. < 1288678044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man high school student < 1288678047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope it was in school term < 1288678082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["I wanted to prove that bad things didn't happen if you went without sleep," said Gardner.]] < 1288678087 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guinness has officially stopped keeping records of things that are too dangerous for their legal department. :P < 1288678089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what a way to justify your all-nighters to your mother! < 1288678100 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so why he did it < 1288678101 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, he did end up hallucinating. < 1288678103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i refuse to accept any other explanation < 1288678110 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In reality, the hallucinations are very much like dreams. < 1288678134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: if you're experiencing them, it's probably microsleep < 1288678174 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, yes, but for all measurable purposes you're still awake. < 1288678207 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: not if you're driving < 1288678216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_rail_accident microsleeps were a factor in this < 1288678220 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, by the way, NEVER do that. < 1288678239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, drive? ok : < 1288678240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1288678246 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1288678247 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been falling asleep while driving, and it's...just not worth whatever you're driving for. < 1288678253 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was already scared of learning to drive < 1288678260 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a good sleep cycle < 1288678268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsleeps only happen after sleep deprivation < 1288678279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :protip: if you're tired DON'T FUCKING DRIVE MORON < 1288678281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this goes for everone < 1288678283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*everyone < 1288678292 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does sleeping for 5 hours or less a night count as sleep deprivation? < 1288678296 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I fully agree < 1288678299 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Driving is perfectly safe as long as you don't think about the fact that it's horrifically, phenomenally dangerous. < 1288678300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288678306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being awake for like 18 hours or more counts < 1288678318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i hate the road system etc. < 1288678337 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what if I plan a schedule around being able to drive, then fail to get enough sleep, and am tired, but can't do public transportation? < 1288678338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even this little town is built entirely around these ridiculously dangerous machines driven by people who get angry so easily < 1288678346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :road rage is an indicator that driving is not good psychology... < 1288678349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*psychologically... < 1288678356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they rule the town! < 1288678367 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck people, let's just have them stand and wait for the lethal machines to slow down! < 1288678369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah. < 1288678409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: "and state that the Guinness World Records record is 449 hours (18 days, 17 hours) by Maureen Weston, of Peterborough, Cambridgeshire in April, 1977, in a rocking-chair marathon." < 1288678410 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something about requiring the operators of the machines to be properly trained and certified, but that obviously doesn't work < 1288678415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEST REASON TO STAY AWAKE EVER < 1288678417 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like bicycles. < 1288678418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: they sort of do that < 1288678426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bicycles are nice if you're into that kind of thing :) < 1288678432 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm into a lot of things. < 1288678437 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I know. And obviously people still do stupid things < 1288678441 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: What a modern, humane city should do is this: < 1288678442 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, I'm interested in way too many things. < 1288678458 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Build it for people walking around and bicycles. Roads go to the *side* of everything else, crossings should be kept to an absolute minimum. < 1288678463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STRICT policy of people taking priority. < 1288678467 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I said "that obviously doesn't work" < 1288678481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally, let there be no clear road/people space boundary on the road areas: there is no place that cars "own". < 1288678487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are there all the time, so drivers have to go slower. < 1288678497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And keep it away from anywhere where people live, because of the damn noise! < 1288678502 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: And then, to meet the needs of everyone: < 1288678515 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless there are few people walking around at night, then drivers speed up, but there is one person walking there... < 1288678515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Very regular entrances into a fast, underground railway system. < 1288678525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Should never be more than five minutes away from a station. < 1288678528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem solved! < 1288678536 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What you're describing is to be found in parts of India, I think. < 1288678547 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less the underground, not sure. < 1288678565 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLEAN, on the other hand... < 1288678585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :City is free of noise pollution, you can walk around nicely, bicycles have lots of open space to ride in, people who really want to use cars to get into the city or whatever can go via the to-the-side roads, and inside the city, non-bicyclists who want to go a long distance can just hop on the tube. < 1288678632 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsleep can last for 30sec? < 1288678634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Oh, and of course, for inter-city transport, you have fast railways -- think Japan -- and also long motorways. < 1288678635 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1288678666 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Brave New World. < 1288678674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Randy Gardner's not-sleeping was in the name of science. < 1288678684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Is that meant to be a rebuttal? < 1288678689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I hope he got an A for it. < 1288678699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: F for Fucking Insane. < 1288678709 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It depends on whether you like socialism without free-market-driven progress. < 1288678756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Okay -- so basically you see something you consider evil socialism, and immediately reply "Gee, Huxley", with no apparent justification or meaning. < 1288678768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the invisible hand obscuring your vision? < 1288678854 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, I see something I consider good, beneficial socialism, and Immediately reply "Gee, Huxley", leaving it to you to provide your own justification as to whether you think it's a good thing or not, and relying on the self-evident meaning in invoking his work. < 1288678867 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1288678868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I read < 1288678869 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: It depends on whether you like socialism without free-market-driven progress. < 1288678870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was < 1288678874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fuck you, free markets!" < 1288678888 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, no. I meant it's only a rebuttal if you disagree with me. ^_^ < 1288678915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It's a very slippery-slope argument, to go from government-funded transport and city organisation to a futuristic, hedonistic dystopia. < 1288678932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean to use the book as a keyword for it. < 1288678946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Anyway, who said the railways weren't run by corporations? :) < 1288678976 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this... thing, as a child, and still a little now, where if I didn't put my hand on my chest, I'd be worried about whether or not my heart's still beating < 1288678986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: As for market-dictated city plannings... take a look at New York's power grid in the 1890s, on the left: http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/wires.jpg < 1288679007 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Maybe I don't consider hedonism inherently evil. I think the only problem with that world (other than those the book addresses, the loss of culture, etc.) is that a free market, or some form of competition is necessary for social progress because it provides the motivation for people to innovate. < 1288679022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am very sceptical of the idea that unrestrained markets can develop all beneficial social institutions. :) < 1288679035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I approve of the idea of a market with competition; however, I do not approve of the idea of an unregulated one. < 1288679046 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's fair. < 1288679062 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I used to have something similar. I also didn't believe my heart beat while I slept. < 1288679070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unregulated free-market capitalism is basically corporatism, sadly, and the political power of your dollar falls down after a corporation becomes big enough. < 1288679116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free market supporters seem to say "well, corporations won't get big enough!" and then when all the instances of unregulated corporations get big enough are presented, they say "well, that market wasn't *totally* free" as if somehow, increasing the freedom of a market makes it more and more terrible until it's totally free, at which point it becomes perfect. < 1288679131 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your heart is now beating manually. < 1288679143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It isn't, but I'm now breathing and blinking manually. < 1288679146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I am too tired to do! < 1288679204 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I also think that absolute pure anarcho-capitalism is possibly the worst thing that could happen. < 1288679236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because when you go that far down the rabbit hole, you start having to pay a corporate police force to protect you. And if they don't want to get involved and you die, well... who's gonna stop them? < 1288679259 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I sort of resent the term "free" applied to the free market, because it *means* "free" as in "unrestricted", but it *implies* "free" as in "freedom", which proponents use to their subtle advantage in promoting it, as though a non-free market inherently bars people from their inalienable right to buy and sell shit in an unregulated fashion. < 1288679270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Fully agreed. < 1288679278 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would love it if some form of anarchy could be made to work well
< 1288679280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It is one of those loaded terms like "pro-life"/"pro-choice". < 1288679281 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I highly doubt it < 1288679298 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Chaos coalesces into order and might makes right. < 1288679302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libertarianism is an interesting study, but I don't think it would work < 1288679306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Anarchy could probably work with technology. < 1288679319 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, it's more that I hate centralization < 1288679322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody's fully realised, yet, just how much the Internet change everything. < 1288679324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*changes < 1288679325 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My jargon meter just went off. Care to elaborate? < 1288679332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: To which line? < 1288679338 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Both, actually. < 1288679354 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in your specific example, however, if news got out that a police force was not providing protection, it would lose customers < 1288679360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least so the libertarian theory goes < 1288679360 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I recall someone saying "You'll be hailed as an innovator if you centralise everything that's decentralised, and decentralise everything that's centralised." < 1288679372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and what if the police force decided to club the valiant reporter to death? < 1288679379 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds Scott Adams-esque < 1288679383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suddenly they're clubbing all their opponents to death, and they are the only one with power. < 1288679391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess what that is? < 1288679393 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: then the other police forces have to intervene < 1288679397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totalitarianism. < 1288679400 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this shouldn't happen < 1288679401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: This one happens to be the biggest. < 1288679404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it wins. < 1288679406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the police forces don't want to fight < 1288679419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There are enough so that no single one is big enough to take on the rest < 1288679420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Exactly -- so when one of their clients is about to get brutally murdered, they don't get involved. < 1288679431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes, I am not convinced there would be enough. < 1288679437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: Police fighting police would be interesting. < 1288679439 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Neither am I < 1288679478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I am trying to find a little blog post I find explains my pipe-dream rather well. < 1288679488 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But the idea goes that let's suppose police force A is about to kill police force B's client. < 1288679507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: police force B tells police force A of this, and rather than fight, they settle it (ideally with an independent adjudicator) < 1288679515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: http://r6.ca/blog/20050621T184100Z.html I don't agree with this entirely; direct democracy scares me. But it's an illustration, albeit incomplete and flawed, of how technology can change social structures... < 1288679523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where the system breaks down in my mind < 1288679541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right < 1288679541 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :insurace comapnies show that adjudication like that is dangerous < 1288679567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like governments, corporations are something everyone should innately distrust < 1288679570 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh man, that funding rule < 1288679578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with anarcho-capitalism... this becomes more or less impossible < 1288679581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That rule nearly brought down the government in 2008 < 1288679596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but I have inteded to raise the point with a libertarian friend < 1288679596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Are you pro or against? :) < 1288679608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The funding rule; I know nothing of it.) < 1288679613 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Undecided < 1288679623 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the part that nearly brought down the government was that they tried to get rid of it < 1288679627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Parties get funding related to the number of votes they get, and corporate donations have been all but eliminated." -- this, in its pure form, sounds wonderful to me. < 1288679632 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the opposition parties were like "no" < 1288679637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah < 1288679641 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that part is good < 1288679669 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, they aren't gone entirely < 1288679684 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's probably why the Cons wanted to repeal that provision - they are fans of corporations < 1288679701 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1288679702 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1288679708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I said is right < 1288679722 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the rest is necessarily right < 1288679740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will reduce the degree to which government decisions are made at arm's length from the population, hopefully < 1288679748 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they won'd be made solely by the people < 1288679755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: As you are Canadian, I want to share another thing Russell O'Connor has done: < 1288679758 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*won't < 1288679780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, the Pirate Party approved our first official candidate today! < 1288679801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: < 1288679801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html < 1288679802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html < 1288679802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html < 1288679802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html < 1288679802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html < 1288679803 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html < 1288679806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow < 1288679808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: read from top to bottom (they're short) < 1288679811 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're short :P < 1288679819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man true timestamps < 1288679821 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a fan < 1288679831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: of course, as it says, the votes that the simulated elections are run with aren't accurate < 1288679835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: since they include tactical votes < 1288679843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but in a stochastic system, tactical votes would not be beneficial at all < 1288679849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and so the votes made would be different and the outcome different < 1288679860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: still -- the idea is *very* intriguing and as a Canadian you may find the results interesting :) < 1288679865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COMMUNIST PARTY < 1288679878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the probability of it ever being adopted is *zero* because stupid people don't understand probability < 1288679890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TURN OUR ELECTIONS INTO A DICE ROLL?! YOU ANTI-DEMOCRATIC MONSTER!"" < 1288679893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*!" < 1288679899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, read those posts :) < 1288679972 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: interesting < 1288679981 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in the context of Canada < 1288679992 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where our governments have a surprisingly strong 'old boss same as new boss' tendency < 1288680004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you guys have a bit of a depressing political system < 1288680006 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats the usa though < 1288680027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: don't you want to swap new and old there? :) < 1288680047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: does it matter? < 1288680052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i like how since coppro's started talking it's changed from a mainly me and you conversation into a mainly me and coppro conversation < 1288680054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, but it reads better :) < 1288680065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and actually, the strong consistency does have its benefits < 1288680068 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, consistency < 1288680068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and as it is there it makes it look like you're going back in time < 1288680089 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also have a hell of a public service that typically the government listens to (except, apparently when it regards the census) < 1288680096 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Whether the independent adjudicator is independent, corporate, or government, it still must exist. The system doesn't "break down" per se. < 1288680142 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The problem is that the libertarian idea is removing a single point of failure < 1288680146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what public service are you referring to? tired :) < 1288680153 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Canada's < 1288680159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i mean, which... i mean name < 1288680160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1288680164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my thoughts are becoming incoherent! \o/ < 1288680165 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                      | < 1288680165 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                     /'\ < 1288680169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: btw, it's not the libertarian idea < 1288680170 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: uh, the public service? < 1288680175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh i misparsed < 1288680177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the anarcho-capitalist idea < 1288680178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ancap < 1288680187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libertarian is anarcho-capitalist with a police force and military :) < 1288680193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is significantly difference < 1288680194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*different < 1288680197 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288680199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the government claims a monopoly on coercive force < 1288680211 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in any case < 1288680213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is less dangerous (but still shitty for other reasons) < 1288680215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no to what? < 1288680221 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The government *is* the bastion of coercive force, effectively. < 1288680229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but -- < 1288680233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your assertion that libertarianism has a single police force and military < 1288680238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an ancap situation, you have multiple competing police forces < 1288680240 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN ANY CASE < 1288680243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a libertarian situation, you have one police force < 1288680252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's true! that's what differentiates the two < 1288680256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libertarian has a minimal government < 1288680261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancap is anarchy -- no government by definition < 1288680278 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with multiple competing police forces, you can avoid conflict because it is not in the police forces' interest to have direct conflict < 1288680311 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, there will be a small number of police forces (let us suppose for the sake of the argument that the number of significant forces is at least in the tens, which, given human nature, is unlikely but possible) < 1288680320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288680345 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can actually see ancap working out if it had sufficient time to incubate before being subject to external influences. If they need to defend from invasion, they band together to do it and disband when it's over, on the principle that everyone does fine individually but everyone benefits from not getting royally fucked over by another country. < 1288680353 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initially, each police force might resolve differences with each other force differently < 1288680359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even aside from the unstable society < 1288680368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancap would be inhumane < 1288680380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't find work in a, by definition, ridiculously competitive work environment? < 1288680382 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU DIE! < 1288680389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got cancer? FUCK YOU, PAY UP! < 1288680392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, a single force would gravitate towards increasing efficiency and consistency by adopting a single system of dealing with other police forces < 1288680394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't afford food? Why not starve? < 1288680414 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: part of ancap relies on the existence of private philanthropists < 1288680418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no, charities can't just wish for donations and solve it all... when money is that important, how many people will give it up for others?) < 1288680426 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actually, it depends on what you consider "society". Sure, leadership and governance and that would all be ad-hoc and arbitrary. But the stability of a social situation depends largely on the morals of the people involved, and almost all people basically work under the principle "don't be a jerk". < 1288680430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: sure... i don't think they'd be nearly common enough. < 1288680436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: haha < 1288680441 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If it became a social norm for rich people, it might < 1288680443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I would love to believe that people are fundamentally nice. < 1288680451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, sorry, selfishness takes over at some point. < 1288680465 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in any case, as the police forces gravitate towards a single system, this system eventually becomes your single point of failure < 1288680469 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I never said that people are fundamentally nice, but it's also absurd to claim that there's anything fundamentally *wrong* with people. < 1288680491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: there isn't. selfishness is just a fact < 1288680509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a sane governmental system uses this to its advantage, and stops it being dangerous < 1288680520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets it be expressed in a capitalist system so we get innovation and nice things < 1288680523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: according to wikipedia, we're both wrong < 1288680526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it stops it interfering with people's wellbeing < 1288680535 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Of course, look at, oh, ecology. You're selfish to the extent that you can be without destabilising the system around you. Anything that causes the system to become unstable eliminates itself automatically. < 1288680537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anarcho-capitalism is a subset of libertarianism < 1288680540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, yse < 1288680542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yes < 1288680547 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: like nazism is etc. < 1288680550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not that extreme < 1288680554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ancap is basically libertarianism to the max < 1288680575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: of course, but society doesn't have the same sort of safeguards as nature really < 1288680592 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, you were clear on libertarianism supporting minimal state < 1288680592 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is not necessarily true < 1288680592 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, it is in fact okay to admit wrongessness once in a while < 1288680598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, i mean < 1288680602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone says < 1288680606 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am a libertarian." < 1288680608 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Interesting to note that libertarianism is a strict superset of ancap. But isn't every set a superset of the empty set? < 1288680612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as their entire political philosophy < 1288680613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what they mean < 1288680616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "essn" wat < 1288680622 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott was wrong? < 1288680624 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have a counterexample < 1288680626 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is crushed.
< 1288680628 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *wrongnessness < 1288680636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: do you see the [007F]s? < 1288680640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no < 1288680643 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see: < 1288680645 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Society *does* have the same safeguards as nature *except* when totalitarian agriculture is involved. < 1288680650 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Read some Daniel Quinn. < 1288680652 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrongess[007F][007F][007F]ness < 1288680656 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1288680662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i know it has safeguards, just not the same < 1288680667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1288680673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i do admit i'm wrong, i just don't think i was wrong here :) < 1288680692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"libertarianism" as referring to a distinct place on the political spectrum is perhaps a loose use of terms, but it's obvious what i was using it to mean < 1288680705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's the most useful definition of that term when used to define a specific point on the spectrum rather than a whole spectrum in itself, in my opinion < 1288680728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you are/were on a defensive "ohshithesgotfactsthatcontradictmyviewmustmitigatelosses" < 1288680737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this because I do this all the time, so I can recognize it < 1288680737 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I just say that I'm experiencing a nerd head rush from carrying on a lucid, sophisticated, intellectual conversation with people who seem to be largely my junior? < 1288680746 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yes < 1288680752 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION says so.
< 1288680754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: perhaps i am acting the same as if i was, but actually, i had *already loaded the wikipedia page* long before you mentioned it < 1288680763 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and i stand by my usage of the terminology in this case < 1288680767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: then my statement goes double < 1288680783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pops this conversation
< 1288680785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: whatever, i'm uninterested in arguing the point -- but i have always used the term libertarian to mean two things, the philosophy and the particular point < 1288680792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and i am not going to stop doing that, because many people do < 1288680794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Libertarian Party < 1288680796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of USA < 1288680799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uses it in that sense < 1288680820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, arguments about terminology are *stupid*, there aren't any facts in terminology whatever wikipedia says imo :) and that goes for *every* term < 1288680824 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just what's most useful < 1288680825 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1288680827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop conversation < 1288680833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<evincar> Can I just say that I'm experiencing a nerd head rush from carrying on a lucid, sophisticated, intellectual conversation with people who seem to be largely my junior? < 1288680839 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, what about me? i'm sleep-deprived < 1288680851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not quite a head rush so much as a... head the-bends < 1288680856 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right you are. That says nothing of the actual members of the Libertarian Party, however...there's a large congregation of them here in the Northeast, and they're known for causing a certain amount of trouble, politically and legally. < 1288680857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo i'm monologuing < 1288680861 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how old do you think I am? < 1288680878 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I have no idea. In your twenties, probably? < 1288680878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro has always been 16 and always will be < 1288680884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro's 18 :p last i checked < 1288680886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was never < 1288680887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think 18 < 1288680888 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget < 1288680894 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, still younger than me then, if you're right. < 1288680900 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was playing it safe. < 1288680909 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott is correct < 1288680909 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't take my word for it i don't actually know < 1288680913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok take my word for it :P < 1288680923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was extrapolating from in high school recently + then in university < 1288680932 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION takes coppro's word that elliot's word is correct.
< 1288680947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWO TS < 1288680949 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, I'm the geezer in here. < 1288680952 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless Sgeo_ is older. < 1288680954 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BerserkButton < 1288680966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_ is 20 or 21, although i find it almost impossible to convince myself of this fact < 1288680970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 i think < 1288680983 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Well, fairly typical IRC age range, then. < 1288680991 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I might be biased. < 1288681000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you were in here in 2008 right? < 1288681004 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only chats I've ever joined have to do with deep, heady things. < 1288681008 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288681009 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 2007 or 2008. < 1288681011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i talked to you when i was 12! hahaha! although i was a bit of an idiot < 1288681021 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I remember that. < 1288681024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1288681029 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah! < 1288681030 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288681036 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were...precocious? < 1288681041 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: aw great, now you've associated me with that guy :) < 1288681044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did i do that? < 1288681056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my view, part of the problem with libertarian groups in general is that they tend to contain both people who believe that the correct social structure has little/no government and are willing to carry on lucid, intellectual, well-thought-out arguments about why this is the case and how they intend to implement it. < 1288681059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've evolved from precocious to just being a dick < 1288681064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my defence, people are idiots < 1288681069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm not actually this misanthropic!) < 1288681070 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am fully aware that people can evolve, my friend. < 1288681079 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and people who just hate the fucking cunts in the motherfucking government < 1288681081 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've changed drastically in the past month, since leaving my girlfriend. < 1288681086 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am so much happier. < 1288681103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i was so confused before you added that correction < 1288681106 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, the same goes for communist groups too < 1288681107 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was like "..okay" < 1288681108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*... < 1288681132 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who believe that the correct social structure is one of very strong government... and a bunch of ditto marks < 1288681146 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, do you want a laugh? < 1288681148 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google canadian action party < 1288681155 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ho ho. < 1288681166 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION knows about this already.
< 1288681168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's interesting just how far apart and yet close statist communism and anarchic communism are < 1288681181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i am not entirely sure the transition from the first to the second could or would ever happen, ever :) < 1288681196 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: are you Canadian? < 1288681205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :american, unless i'm mistaken < 1288681209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love answering other people's personal questions < 1288681214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, he's in america now < 1288681216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~HOSTNAME POWAH~ < 1288681227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: canadian action party sound fun < 1288681228 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: elliot's right, but living in New England gives me a pretty good sense of things, I think. < 1288681239 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to move to Canada in a few years. < 1288681245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWO < 1288681246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOTHER < 1288681247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCKING < 1288681248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TS < 1288681258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ahem* < 1288681259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1288681272 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you should move to europe, it's nice here! (note: i am not in one of the nice parts of europe) < 1288681274 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's what I get for mistyping, incorrectly correcting, and failing to just use tab-complete. < 1288681283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although immigration into the EU is probably non-trivial < 1288681314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: one of our nationalist political parties has clearly read http://zapatopi.net/belgium/ < 1288681315 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'd like to live somewhere in the south of England, or in the north country of France. < 1288681345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: no. you do not want to live in england. < 1288681347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: trust me. < 1288681351 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Speaking French gives me a certain fraction of French nationalism, not to mention I have French Canadian heritage (though I hate Québécois accents.) < 1288681355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: maybe cornwall. but england: no. < 1288681366 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Go on... < 1288681379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: our political climate is horrible < 1288681384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our weather is horrible < 1288681391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we seem to have a ridiculous proportion of assholes in the population < 1288681397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just not a very pleasant country :) < 1288681437 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How's the politics and culture surrounding gender identity and sexual orientation? < 1288681487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have civil unions instead of gay marriage. there is a lot of homophobia and the like, and of course there is everywhere, but there's gonna be a lot more than in sweden or whatever < 1288681491 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Obviously, I'd've got more of an impression of this if I'd looked more seriously into living in the UK in the near future. < 1288681504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even know of any transphobia but then i don't know of much transphobia *anywhere* since it's such an ignored topic < 1288681510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i doubt most people even know of it < 1288681522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i mean okay, generally people here are nice because... everywhere people are nice < 1288681530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but uhh < 1288681537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so hard to give a balanced idea of your own country! < 1288681546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok, you know how you're in the us, and top on your list of plans is "move outside the US"? < 1288681558 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Very true. I know a couple of transsexuals who also dress, and they can get by totally under the radar because people just don't know about it. < 1288681560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't want to do the interesting things in your life in the US? < 1288681568 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, not as such. < 1288681573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's what you said! :p < 1288681574 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mean, wait. < 1288681576 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less < 1288681583 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was in response to the first thing. < 1288681586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm in the USA but I'm moving to Canada ASAP." < 1288681588 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't want to just escape the US. < 1288681596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wording this terribly < 1288681598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff tiredness < 1288681602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok what i'm trying to say is < 1288681608 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only want to move to Canada because I like French culture and because there are tax incentives for game developers. :P < 1288681621 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, y'know, socialised health care, recreational marijuana, whatever. < 1288681626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for open source :) < 1288681639 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I even smoke marijuana with any regularity or frequency. < 1288681675 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I love open source. I also love making money. The two are not incompatible. I'll release everything I can freely. < 1288681695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see many open source games with good sales < 1288681733 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There's nothing to say I can't release the source after the game has run its lifetime. < 1288681747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can release the engine and make the media proprietary < 1288681754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the levelsets) < 1288681757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iulNvamNzeg#t=40s < 1288681759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: watch this for a laugh < 1288681767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: (start from the beginning if you have the attention span) < 1288681771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DROD has experienced modest success under this strategy < 1288681776 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I do have a solid engine that I wouldn't even need to open-source, just make the API available and people would be pretty happy. < 1288681796 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: even better from a financial point of view < 1288681796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I oppose copyright, basically, so I can't support you I'm afraid :) but it's better than most game selling models at least. < 1288681815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scratch the basically, i oppose copyright < 1288681826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you oppose commercial copyright? < 1288681832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: clarify your term < 1288681841 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Intense speech. < 1288681852 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: intense and idiotic :) < 1288681854 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: copyright law used to prevent someone from making money off of another's work < 1288681866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: if you keep listening you'll eventually hear him saying that belgium is "not even a real country" < 1288681875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is possibly the funniest thing i've ever heard < 1288681878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i repeat, http://zapatopi.net/belgium/ < 1288681890 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Basically a non-country". < 1288681894 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwut < 1288681896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yeah, that < 1288681905 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: read that page, it's amusing :) < 1288681915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well. you already see GPL'd software being sold legally but shadily < 1288681921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: all over the place < 1288681929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and while it's legal (sometimes not, but let's ignore that for now), it isn't a huge problem < 1288681935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: few people get suckered into it < 1288681941 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, I mean something like me starting a bookstore where I sell other people's books at only the printing costs and never give the author a red cent < 1288681956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's basically like selling someone else's free ffmpeg wrapper. < 1288681963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: which happens. and is mostly legal < 1288681981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but is not a problem < 1288681984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the books in this case are not free for others < 1288681999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so you are okay with creators being forced to compete with reproducers? < 1288682002 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is 21
< 1288682007 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes they are; there's no copyright, so any book that is sold would just be reproduced online immediately < 1288682019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: let me find something pertinent for you < 1288682022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Copyright exists. < 1288682031 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: not in my hypothetical world, it does not < 1288682033 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I find it remarkable that your views on copyright are so liberal, after the discussion we just had. < 1288682039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: why? < 1288682062 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I perceive a contrast, but there may not actually be one. < 1288682070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I accuse you of committing a fallacy < 1288682082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: so you are okay with creators being forced to compete with reproducers? < 1288682084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please read this http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/10/19/the-point < 1288682090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very nice, and enlightened, view on these kinds of things. < 1288682096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is even to do with books! < 1288682120 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, never mind, I was mistaken. < 1288682134 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chalk it up to the hour or something. < 1288682137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what contrast did you perceive, just of curiosity? < 1288682170 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you were advocating rather strongly against anarcho-capitalism and libertarianism alike, no? < 1288682175 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It is that < 1288682187 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do believe that many creators will create for the joy of creating < 1288682190 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure do < 1288682191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: indeed < 1288682192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: indeed < 1288682195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*drop one of those < 1288682201 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it is far easier to go about this creation if I'm paid for my work < 1288682203 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but that's that one person's choice < 1288682209 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Creators gonna create. < 1288682212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I still believe that a commercial incentive could be made to create creative works < 1288682228 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I do not have time to work on open-source stuff right now < 1288682236 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all < 1288682250 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So I didn't take into account the capitalist aspect of that. I figured you'd like to be paid for your work, as a creative. < 1288682256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: off the top of my head -- this probably wouldn't work, but if i can generate possibilities off the top of my head this easily... -- creator makes several excellent works for free, gets a reputation -- and then operates a donation system: once I get N donations, you get a new film/whatever on [date] < 1288682257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How, if the creative work will instantly be distributed free and thus become worthless? < 1288682265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: this probably would not work, but... it's an idea < 1288682287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because we can't think of something perfect yet (and for all i know someone already has) doesn't mean we should stop trying < 1288682295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i'm a free culture hippie :) < 1288682300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: really it's all so... non-clear-cut. < 1288682302 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, elliott: I think a balance like Creative Commons is really the solution here. :P < 1288682305 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fair... for now < 1288682313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not as sure as i portray myself < 1288682324 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288682326 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: even creative commons lets other people republish another's book and give them no money < 1288682330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, unless you count non-commercial < 1288682337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bad license IMO < 1288682344 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally, I would love to remove as much copyright as is possible < 1288682344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no-derivatives is even worse) < 1288682356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I believe it needs to be done with care < 1288682369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... for now i support the pirate party < 1288682383 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What's so bad about the non-commercial clause? I think it's reasonable to assert that work that you intend to be free ought to always remain free, even in derivative form. < 1288682383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as wimpy and unrevolutionary as they have turned out to be, it's better than what we have now :) < 1288682392 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even then, someone can always obtain the permission of the creator. < 1288682393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you have mixed up free and Free < 1288682400 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an easy mistake, considering how stupid the terminology is < 1288682406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try libre, it's obnoxious but will help sort out your sentence < 1288682417 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I meant gratis, not libre. < 1288682427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: gratis for both of them? < 1288682429 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288682437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: well. < 1288682444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say someone has published a novel online < 1288682447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i want a printed copy < 1288682452 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can easily go to lulu or whatever and make myself one < 1288682459 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if i want to give other people the opportunity to get one, too? < 1288682463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no reason not to < 1288682469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason to make other people to typeset it, < 1288682474 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go through the lulu process < 1288682475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1288682482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, i put it up for sale at lulu's *minimum price* < 1288682484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see not a cent of profit < 1288682495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people who want to read this free novel in print can do so for the cost of publishing it + some profit for lulu < 1288682499 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet a non-commercial license forbids this < 1288682509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not view this as a good thing: this forced duplication of effort < 1288682522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, "forced duplication of effort" summarises patents and proprietary software too! < 1288682527 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Valid example. Subvert it with an addendum. Legal language is, after all, language. < 1288682529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't use this: you have to make your own. because i say so. < 1288682539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you cannot make such an addendum meaningful < 1288682543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very much a commercial use < 1288682549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people (lulu) are profiting from it < 1288682559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making money off what is primarily someone else's work without permission < 1288682564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it is not wrong, it is a good service to offer < 1288682573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :commercial use doesn't mean commercial *ab*use < 1288682585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't really distinguish the two when you get down to it, it is very subjective < 1288682587 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"NC except by permission", "NC except by (insert term defined as meaning 'derivative service' or some such)". < 1288682596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: actually, looking at NC, you could do that < 1288682602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: well, perhaps that would be better. < 1288682608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it is still *definitely* not libre like this. < 1288682611 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it more funny, lulu would be violating copyright < 1288682612 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you would not be < 1288682616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: heh < 1288682623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but lulu will have TOS saying < 1288682627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey you can't make us violate copyright < 1288682629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in effect) < 1288682633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd be breaking lulu's rules < 1288682638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Probably it will say you can't upload copyrighted material < 1288682640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if this isn't legally enforceable they could still drop you. < 1288682642 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1288682642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288682647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to look
< 1288682654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: a fundamental part of the definition of libre is that there is *no* discrimination due to fields of use < 1288682658 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that includes commercial. < 1288682702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a nice conversation < 1288682722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so often interesting conversations are bogged down in trivial, silly debates underlying a larger point you want to get to < 1288682732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we all seem to share some sort of bedrock of opinions which is helpful < 1288682734 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So, once again, free-as-in-beer conflicts with free-as-in-freedom. < 1288682739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1288682744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in the case of lulu, technically you would be violating lulu's ToS by failing to license them the work < 1288682753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i guessed something like that, yeah < 1288682754 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And, you're right, this conversation is stimulating and the disagreement is lively rather than irritating. < 1288682779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Stalin and Hitler.png" best filename ever < 1288682791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay not best but < 1288682793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm tired kay? < 1288682804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: remember when we spent hours getting absolutely nowhere about copyright? < 1288682807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was FUN* < 1288682809 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*note: not actually fun < 1288682837 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, allow me to cite the relevant clause 4b: < 1288682841 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may not exercise any of the rights granted to You in Section 3 above in any manner that is primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation. The exchange of the Work for other copyrighted works by means of digital file-sharing or otherwise shall not be considered to be intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary... < 1288682843 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...compensation, provided there is no payment of any monetary compensation in connection with the exchange of copyrighted works. < 1288682849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, I recall < 1288682888 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re: the lulu example, you're not in violation because you're not primarily intending or directing your actions toward commercial advantage etc. < 1288682906 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you don't violate copyright < 1288682912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worse that could happen is lulu could terminate you < 1288682930 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Okay, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding your argument correctly. < 1288683012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should turn this into a computing flamewar < 1288683033 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh oh! < 1288683036 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I made a language. < 1288683041 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, not quite finished yet. < 1288683044 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, good news: The Pirate Party is close to running a candidate! < 1288683058 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's designed to question the nature of computation, so it could be an interesting discussion starter. < 1288683129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern computing is fundamentally badly designed, filesystems are a crock, and current systems are a mire of historical debris that don't respect the user. < 1288683130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISCUSS < 1288683134 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Uh, provided anyone notices.) < 1288683140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by 'close', I mean that he needs to file nomination papers < 1288683148 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's been approved and is ready to go < 1288683175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love this channel < 1288683231 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's a hell of a good place to be. < 1288683243 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1288683252 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and there's nothing to DISCUSS. :P < 1288683262 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel is a bizarre bastion of mostly-erudite thought < 1288683268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're all meant to disagree < 1288683272 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and defend the wonderful linux < 1288683272 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to, say, mathNEWS (shut up elliott)) < 1288683280 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION listens to balalaika music and can't wait to get a new one.
< 1288683283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO COPPRO HOW'S MY ARTICLE DOING IN THAT THAR PIPELINE < 1288683284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to < 1288683286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgive me < 1288683289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's okay < 1288683297 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already told you to shut up about it < 1288683336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amusing to compare conversations like these to the rabble that goes on in here sometimes :) < 1288683352 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i am learning is: 4, 5, 6 am is when the cool people are on! < 1288683362 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that was like 20 or 30 KB of a single conversation. :P < 1288683368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ dd if=/dev/random of=foo bs=512 count=4 < 1288683368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0+4 records in < 1288683368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0+4 records out < 1288683368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :174 bytes (174 B) copied, 1.59379 s, 0.1 kB/s < 1288683369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh wot? < 1288683371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i asked for 2048 bytes < 1288683377 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder why dd is ... mysteriously giving up < 1288683399 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: unfortunately we're too busy talking about the conversation to converse any more < 1288683409 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: iirc dd stops if /dev/random runs out of input < 1288683413 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't remember why < 1288683416 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, *I'll* bloody take charge. < 1288683418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's retarded, do you know how to stop that? < 1288683424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess cat /dev/random | dd if=/dev/stdin < 1288683442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ cat /dev/random | dd if=/dev/stdin of=/dev/null bs=512 count=4 < 1288683442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :280 bytes (280 B) copied, 2.54588 s, 0.1 kB/s < 1288683446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you dd < 1288683455 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so would it be fair to distribute the major programming paradigms along an axis from "more imperative" to "more declarative"? < 1288683472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: about as fair as the left/right political spectrum, which means: no but go on anyway < 1288683473 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, any programming language. :P < 1288683474 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's a lie < 1288683477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather reasonable really. < 1288683484 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, well. < 1288683485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not as a sole descriptor of a paradigm, obviously < 1288683535 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My sense of it is that functions encapsulate actions, therefore functional programming is inherently declarative in some sense, because actions, being the basic unit, become sort of implicit. < 1288683550 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting argument < 1288683569 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And objects encapsulate things, therefore imperative programming is inherently, well, imperative, because nouns, being the basic unit, become implicit as well. < 1288683569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you should come up here to Waterloo! < 1288683573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what is an action in lambda calculus? < 1288683585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the lambda < 1288683587 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Everything is an action. < 1288683592 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bam < 1288683605 0 :mimcpher!~mimcpher@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1288683606 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: unhelpful :) < 1288683607 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.x is the action of returning what you were given. < 1288683612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: DAMN YOU WATERLOO PEOPLE < 1288683619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mimcpher: You cannot take over! < 1288683621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we will revolt. < 1288683624 0 :mimcpher!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REVOLT < 1288683634 0 :mimcpher!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hello poofrosh < 1288683635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok, so every function in lambda calculus is the action of returning [f x]. < 1288683645 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's not very helpful :) < 1288683649 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In its canonical form, though. < 1288683651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: do i blame you? < 1288683662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: blame amstan < 1288683665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who < 1288683667 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not intended to be a useful statement as such, just a definition for what I'm going on to say. < 1288683673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i see. well in lambda calculus' canonical semantics there is no returning, just rewriting < 1288683684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your model is FLAWED! Mwahahaha! Give up now! okay carry on < 1288683691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: is amstan that guy who came in a while ago < 1288683703 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Allow me to simplify my language for the sake of not going mad, and trust that I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. :P < 1288683703 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, he's just the guy we always blame around here < 1288683708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're thinking dbelange < 1288683715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was irritating :) < 1288683720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're all irritating < 1288683724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die, all of you < 1288683732 0 :mimcpher!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our sysadmins get complains about dbelange from random IRC servers < 1288683733 0 :mimcpher!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1288683753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: go on :P < 1288683759 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so we've got functional/declarative/verbal, and procedural/declarative/nominal. What's missing is an "adjectival" paradigm, in which the fundamental unit of computation is the *description*. < 1288683804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XML!!!1 < 1288683805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on. < 1288683810 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would an adjectival programming language look like? I think it could not have just any measure of imperative versus declarative nature, because descriptivity is NOT orthogonal with the others. < 1288683818 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a triangle, not two axes. < 1288683821 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you will. < 1288683828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a hypersphere! < 1288683831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably.) < 1288683834 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh...or a triangle. < 1288683839 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1288683840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Don't you mean a square? < 1288683843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A triangle-shaped spectrum would be odd. < 1288683862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Because, basically, the only totally-descriptivist language would be exactly in the *centre* of imperative vs declarative. < 1288683874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the more imperative or declarative you get, the less descriptive you could possibly be. < 1288683875 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not really. The language is defined by its relative proximity to three points. < 1288683881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1288683884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright then; go on. < 1288683890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, my spell checker finally accepts "alright". < 1288683920 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what I did was say: okay, everything is a "description", or, for the purposes of the language, a "property", which I'll shorten to "prop" for ease. < 1288683944 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, a prop can "be" other props, or it can "have" them. It amounts to the same thing. < 1288683965 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can imbue a prop with another prop, and you can test the props of a prop. < 1288683998 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a typed adjectival language, a prop can also "be" a value, such as a number or an array or whatever. < 1288684081 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, for props there is no real notion of ownership, so this leads to some interesting things about, say, defining functions. < 1288684082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: coppro: why haven't either of you disputed my controversial statement about computing? sheesh < 1288684087 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay reading evincar's messages now < 1288684095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok so < 1288684105 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pauses* < 1288684108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prop = value * list(prop) < 1288684135 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sort of. We are assuming a typed system. < 1288684157 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Props are unordered, first of all, so they're more like sets, but as I said, there's no notion of "ownership" of props with which a prop is imbued. < 1288684158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, values have types. < 1288684163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prop = value * set(prop) < 1288684166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yes, but props have/be props < 1288684171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that set is the list of props that this prop is < 1288684180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: presumably you have a few primitive props? < 1288684185 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prop = value * set(prop) | awesomeness | yayness < 1288684188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like < 1288684193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you get what i mean; like "builtins") < 1288684222 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Props have/be props, yes, but a prop-expression can also be treated as a prop on its own. < 1288684267 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Effectively you've got a directed graph, which can be cyclic, and also for which an edge can point to a group of nodes rather than just a single node. < 1288684298 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you can model the last bit as just "A -> G -> { X, Y, Z, ... }" for groups. < 1288684319 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a lot more fluid than just a set. < 1288684334 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's transitive. < 1288684344 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If A is B and B is C then A is C. < 1288684379 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Further, the source of an edge can be a group of nodes, so you can imbue a prop-expression with props, as well. < 1288684383 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So! < 1288684391 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And this leads to the coolest syntax ever.) < 1288684412 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can say [a divides b] means [b % a == 0]. < 1288684429 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. i think < 1288684439 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that imbues the prop-expression "[a divides b]" with the (builtin) prop "means", which refers to "[b % a == 0]". < 1288684461 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1288684471 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever you say "x divides y", if there's no match on x for y, then it looks at the meaning of the expression instead, and finds a match that way. < 1288684490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will understand this a lot better with a spec, gotta say :) < 1288684506 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So execution of a program in a purely adjectival language constitutes lots of ridiculous pattern-matching on a mutable directed possibly-cyclic graphlike structure. < 1288684528 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, mutability isn't necessarily a requirement, come to think of it, but it'd be nice. < 1288684544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: getting rid of mutability will make your execution model much more interesting -- that is my prediction < 1288684557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to, since you lose a lot of the idea of evaluation order < 1288684578 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It seems to be inherently parallel, this language. < 1288684584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then state is even worse :) < 1288684601 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd definitely want to go with implicit parallelism + monads. < 1288684622 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads could be encapsulated in a builtin "then" property. < 1288684622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We functional programmers support the separation of Church and state. < 1288684629 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Cheeky. < 1288684639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a strange definition of cheeky. :) < 1288684665 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"brash; offensively bold". < 1288684677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a pun. I don't see the brashness. < 1288684678 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I use it in a manner somewhat more synonymous with "saucy". < 1288684692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oho, those saucy functional programmers. < 1288684696 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether that's right or not is for the prescriptivists to decide. < 1288684706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly confusing :) < 1288684721 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaanyhow, I'm not sure correctness is a decidable problem. ;) < 1288684730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh :) < 1288684739 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now THAT was a pun. < 1288684751 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that nothing else was. < 1288684799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1288684800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1288684816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was? < 1288684825 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So...yeah, it's very much Lispy in the sense that you've got essentially no syntax (or only one syntactic element, technically) and the language is just a set of fundamental operations mushing around the graph of the program. < 1288684844 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shudder to think what self-modifying programs would look like, but I imagine they would be frighteningly beautiful. < 1288684865 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as in Lisp, the program could easily have inherent access to its own source. < 1288684898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got annoyed enough with Midori that I installed Firefox. Sigh. < 1288684915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Lisp doesn't really have that. < 1288684933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has macros, sure, but a program can't say "(setq me '(exit))" or whatever. < 1288684938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you use lukego's silly hack for that. :) < 1288684956 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It has the notion of program as data, though, and you can traverse an expression-tree just as you traverse an ordinary list. < 1288684962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1288684987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The []s remind me of Nock (http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html), although it's clearly nothing like that. < 1288684996 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the concept I meant to refer to, and there must certainly exist a parallel in a language that's very similar in spirit but based on an entirely different data structure and model of computation. < 1288685009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It sounds like a nice language. < 1288685018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It sounds like something that could be adapted into something "useful", too. < 1288685037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I would be very interested in seeing what compilation tricks you could do to a no-builtin-state version. < 1288685045 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know, that's the frightening bit. < 1288685066 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Compilation isn't something I want to think about. A nice, stringly-typed interpreter for me, thanks, just to get it working and done. < 1288685081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stringly-typed -- like SNOBOL! < 1288685083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1288685089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Tcl. < 1288685104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It just sounds like the basic operation might actually be very efficient. < 1288685107 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should prove your concepts in the fastest way possible for you, then polish them into the fastest possible thing for the computer. < 1288685125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes; I'm talking specifically about compilation theory here. < 1288685150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in... given a regular imperative CISC architecture, how efficient can we translate a bunch of applications of this one functional operation? < 1288685289 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1288685325 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wonder if the language has a single fundamental operation. :P < 1288685337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Tree-traverse-rewrite-match-thing. < 1288685340 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it can be made complete by isomorphism with Lisp. < 1288685356 0 :mimcpher!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288685378 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was figuring search-and-rewrite-if-not-matched. < 1288685409 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, push-search-and-rewrite-if-not-matched-then-pop. :P < 1288685446 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it could be implemented easily in a language that's conducive to graph- or list-based pattern-matching. < 1288685673 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, ever listen to Mika? < 1288685684 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@elliott < 1288685692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1288685700 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man, graph-based pattern matching < 1288685702 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds awesome < 1288685726 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Believe me, using it as a basis for a language is the most awesome thing ever. < 1288685732 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288685750 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, this is the first thing I've made that actually works whose implicationsI really don't fully understand. < 1288685752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: do you have any examples? < 1288685756 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, must see < 1288685788 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It's not done, so I'm not releasing it yet, but I'm making it a priority, because it's cool. < 1288685913 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please do! < 1288685987 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, some imperative style that runs: < 1288685989 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :range is from 1, to 100 < 1288685990 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a divides b] means [b % a == 0] < 1288685992 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for n in range < 1288685994 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if 3 divides n && 5 divides n < 1288685995 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : output "FizzBuzz\n" < 1288685997 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elif 3 divides n < 1288685999 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : output "Fizz\n" < 1288686000 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elif 5 divides n < 1288686002 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : output "Buzz\n" < 1288686003 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1288686005 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : output n, "\n" < 1288686016 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm going with whitespace, even though I'm not a Python fan. :P < 1288686051 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that graph-based? < 1288686072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1288686072 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's subtle. The syntax deliberately masks it. If you were to remove the "to 100" property from the range, it would loop from 1 to forever. < 1288686100 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, this is the worst example I could have given, isn't it? < 1288686105 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want something weird. < 1288686111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, since every language and its brother can do that < 1288686127 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I do like the declaration syntax of infix divide. That's cool < 1288686330 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[(a)] means [a]; [+ [a b]] means [a + b]; [* [a b]] means [a * b]; n is (+ (* 2 3) 5) < 1288686342 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, I just implemented prefix notation. < 1288686348 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorta. < 1288686377 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The gist of that example was to show how context-free grammars could be trivial to write. < 1288686399 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it really easy to make DSLs. < 1288686489 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's definitely cool < 1288686505 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about the graph-basedness? < 1288686545 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: See, this is me, demonstrating how I don't understand what I've made. < 1288686562 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Let me try to come up with a better example. < 1288686594 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1288686758 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Okay, two very simple examples. You can write optimisations for the language in the language itself. < 1288686762 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a * 2] means [a + a] < 1288686770 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All multiplications by two are now optimised into additons. < 1288686776 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[a is const] x [b is const]] means [statically [a x b]] < 1288686785 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh boy < 1288686786 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All operations between two constants are now performed statically. < 1288686802 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*additions < 1288686811 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could quite possibly get as nuts as Feather < 1288686815 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The syntax is speculative.) < 1288686819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but probably not) < 1288686867 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You see, it's hard to come up with good examples. Graph-rewriting is definitely powerful, but it lacks succinct examples. It's obviously especially useful in the context of anything to do with programming languages. < 1288686893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think I sort of understand now < 1288686912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... actually, this sounds like Feather except for the lack of retroactivity < 1288686957 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But the "means" property isn't the only trick the language has up its sleeve, which is what makes it even more useful. < 1288687027 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1288687135 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could provide hints such as [a == b && b == c] implies [a == c], making the transitivity of equality explicit, and subject to possible optimisation. < 1288687180 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, naturally, you could make an "implies" for a user-defined function. < 1288687196 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where user-defined functions are naturally specified using "means", of course. < 1288687877 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1288688327 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Totally unrelated note: what's with the abysmal state of pop music? I'm happy there are a few very innovative artists, but what the hell? < 1288688598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1288688656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consultant, McAfee Associates, Jan. 1996-Aug. 1997, Mar. 1998-Mar 1999 < 1288688657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1. < 1288688657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ported McAfee’s VirusScan product from Microsoft DOS to SunOS, Solaris, Linux, and FreeBSD. < 1288688657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2. < 1288688657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Designed and was principal programmer for WebShield, McAfee’s Linux-based antiviral firewall product. < 1288688659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why god why < 1288688681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [a divides b] means [b % a == 0] < 1288688684 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Who? < 1288688684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean [[b % a] == 0] < 1288688696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, your addition of imperative features clouds the alnguage. < 1288688706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[a is const] x [b is const]] means [statically [a x b]] < 1288688710 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm indecisive. :P < 1288688711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use x here to denote a placeholder < 1288688715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet in "[a divides b]" < 1288688719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :divides was literal < 1288688726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a way to distinguish the two syntactically < 1288688734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: no, you're not; operator precedence is just silly in a language like this < 1288688736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, who = David Parsons < 1288688737 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was arbitrarily assuming that a..z count as placeholders. < 1288688749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You could provide hints such as [a == b && b == c] implies [a == c], making the transitivity of equality explicit, and subject to possible optimisation. < 1288688752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems arbitrary < 1288688759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the semantics of "implies"? < 1288688787 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It means that the expression can be rewritten as such, but need not be. It's "can means". < 1288688823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: but if you rewrite [[a == b] && [b == c]] (you DO need the nesting, if these are *sets*) to [a == c] you lose the information that [a == b] < 1288688828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't an equivalent transformation at all < 1288688842 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if it helps the interpreter perform a rewrite, or if it's more efficient, then it's chosen, otherwise not. < 1288688844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: can you tell me how this is at all different from term rewriting languages? < 1288688887 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Just looking at the two props "means" and "implies", it's not. < 1288688915 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those nifty features are for transforming the graph. coppro asked about the graph-manipulating features. < 1288688933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: are you sure you're not building five languages and then sticking them together? :) < 1288688991 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can easily bring in other interesting things like inversion of properties, so saying "not white" actually implies any colour other than white, or anything in general, if you don't restrict it. < 1288689013 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I'm not sure of that, but it's where the philosophy is taking me right now. < 1288689030 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just exploring the concept because I think it deserves to be explored. < 1288689044 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll get a clearer direction as I go along. < 1288689146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stomach starting to hurt. breakfast soon < 1288689158 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: An important thing seems to be that props can convey loads of semantic information about the program itself, because they're inherently descriptive. So you could have a "parallel" prop, or a "quickly" prop that tries to do things using SSE or in parallel as it sees fit. < 1288689172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1288689268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1288689271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm getting tired already < 1288689301 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Also, operator precedence is a pretty little addition that makes it nicer to use, and I see no reason why symbolic properators (coin!) can't default to having a precedence while named properties don't. < 1288689309 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, they all share the same precedence level. < 1288689310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: because if properties are sets < 1288689320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then [a % b == 0] is the same as [% == a 0 b] < 1288689326 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other nonsense < 1288689408 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not quite, no. It's inherently infix. All expressions are assumed to be of the form "expr prop", where "prop" can be "id expr" or "properator expr" and "expr" can also be "[ expr expr* ]". < 1288689422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1288689430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Definitely scrap all this imperative nonsense, thoug. < 1288689431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*though. < 1288689438 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distill and refine your core concept -- that's the way to go. < 1288689456 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I appreciate the advice, and I definitely take it to heart. < 1288689474 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The imperative nonsense was me being wishy-washy. :P < 1288689530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: In fact, I'm not convinced any sort of effect model does this paradigm well; it sounds suited to pure evaluation to me. < 1288689539 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I implied before, I'm into existential bullshit, so I often spend a lot of time exploring the philosophical nature of something, going in totally the wrong direction with it while wandering, in order to feel that I have a deep enough sense of it to actually code it, when I probably should've just coded it from the beginning. < 1288689587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1288689594 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, all of the effects would be internal, that's all. There has to be some notion of the current state of the graph from the interpreter's point of view. < 1288689595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Last failed attempt from: elliott!~Adium@phy-dhcp-34-229.mps.ohio-state.edu on Nov 01 14:06:56 2010. < 1288689598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey -- would you look at that. < 1288689601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some Ohio fucker thinks he's me! < 1288689612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But NO! I will defend this nick forever. Someday it will be valuable. < 1288689677 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so attached to this nick in IRC, but you'll find me under the name "evincarofautumn" everydamnwhere else. < 1288689700 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for a certain other persona that I'd like to keep separate from my public work. < 1288689701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never been able to stick to a pseudonym. < 1288689707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I change my mind about everything so much. < 1288689722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Oh come on, you just know I have to try and find a link from evincarofautumn to some other guy on the web now. < 1288689753 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Good luck, I'll be interested. The only other instance I've seen of it was on an RPG Maker users' forum back in 2003 or so. < 1288689770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Now you're giving me clues! < 1288689789 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The site is defunct. I'm not sure even Sherman and Peabody could find it. < 1288689807 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And...it's just a username, to me. It only carries a little bit of deeper meaning. < 1288689951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes about configuring Iceweasel to not suck quite as much
< 1288690048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Talk more, this is boring! :P < 1288690051 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You too. < 1288690059 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hah. Every single accessible Google result seems to pertain to me, anyway. < 1288690075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered that that might not be a good thing? < 1288690079 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I can't go past many pages. < 1288690095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, you're one of three people to ever use infogami < 1288690096 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, 7 pages in, it says I no longer have 22,000 results, but more like 70. :P < 1288690110 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know, I was using Markdown before it was cool. < 1288690117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So Obama has been elected, and we've created an Obamanation. Hillary had no such luck; this is a Hillarious failure." < 1288690119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a bad person < 1288690128 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't I just? < 1288690139 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I take it you're a Magic player? < 1288690194 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, but only a bit. The "evincar" name is actually (as you may find explained somewhere online) a deliberate perversion of "evincer", a nonexistent word that supposedly means "one who evinces". My username therefore ought to be spelt with a cedilla on the C, and in fact is intended to mean "he who brings the autumn forth". < 1288690206 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288690216 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So, coincidence. :P < 1288690219 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tiredness setting in. fuckfuck < 1288690234 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first word that comes to mind after 'evincar' to me is 'rath' < 1288690238 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Keep at it. I intend to stay awake until the sun has set again. < 1288690244 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rath's evincars... < 1288690251 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1288690254 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I've heard that somewhere. < 1288690255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mome raths evincarred < 1288690267 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know anything about Magic's BS backstory. < 1288690279 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: In the Magic universe, the evincars were a series of rulers of the plane Rath < 1288690283 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although a recent cstheory.stackexchange.com question proved Magic is Turing-complete. < 1288690296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: on only the second page of your name i see "xkcd" < 1288690297 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if memory serves, a card has evincar in the name < 1288690297 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So NOW I KNOW. < 1288690299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for shame, my friend. < 1288690300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sham < 1288690303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shame < 1288690321 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288690326 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I joined the XKCD fora recently, so it must have been bumped up in the results because that site is so high-ranking. < 1288690348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for shame < 1288690361 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 4-shame. < 1288690372 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, incidentally, I've decided to call this language, however it turns out, D-script. < 1288690380 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since, you know, it's a delicious pun. < 1288690389 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a fairly generic name that's also searchable. < 1288690404 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thoughts? < 1288690408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flertl < 1288690410 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You too. < 1288690445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh tree style tab is so close to perfection < 1288690446 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Come to think of it, how will you know if a result doesn't pertain to me? Or will you just submit results to me for verification? < 1288690447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it needs: < 1288690449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- less nesting < 1288690455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- every link opens in a new child tab BUT history is retained < 1288690468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- previous history is retained, vertical scrollbar; as you scroll up, more history from the past < 1288690484 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense. < 1288690563 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: tree style tab? < 1288690575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5890/ < 1288690586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice but i'm still not sure i can spare any of my 1366 horizontal pixels for it < 1288690587 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1288690594 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288690633 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it seems I stand a pretty good shot of being the best non-professional balalaika player on YouTube, if I just get a webcam. The majority of the people who put up videos are fairly bad amateurs, or are only interested in traditional music. < 1288690642 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288690703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPv9VZQkxJI this guy is hilarious, what is he even < 1288690713 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are of course a few videos of pro players and orchestras and stuff, against whom I stand no chance whatsoever. < 1288690728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the worst i have heard any instrument played < 1288690744 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Old stuff. He's got presence at least. < 1288690756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: he can't breathe properly < 1288690759 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFmZfgiczho&NR=1 < 1288690775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1288690780 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Very good player, but falls into the category of "only wants to do traditional music". < 1288690812 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an instrument that needs attention. I think it's got a great sound. < 1288690823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like an asshole instrument :) < 1288690826 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the designers < 1288690827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :designer < 1288690828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1288690885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: SO WHAT HAPPENED TO PROG and god googlestalking is boring < 1288690893 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not sure what you mean. It *was* originally a peasant instrument made out of a pumpkin. :P < 1288690908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i mean the designer was an asshole who wanted to torture people who just wanted to make some music < 1288690914 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Prog is in the feckin works, mkay? I just gave a talk about it a couple of weeks ago. < 1288690914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by making it impossible to play < 1288690922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: THE LAST CHANGE WAS 200 DAYS AGO < 1288690925 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's very easy to play, but hard to master. < 1288690925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*OVER < 1288690976 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I quit using Subversion and sorta abandoned the SourceForge project because I wanted to move in a new direction with it. I got a basic compiler working, then decided that the operator precedence parser might not be the best idea and decided to rework it into an ANTLR grammar. :P < 1288691005 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention the shitloads of stuff I've reworked for concurrency's sake, after spending this past year getting really acquainted with FP. < 1288691075 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I've used Scheme and what have you enough, and I've always been comfortable with functional computing abstractions, but it wasn't until I read up on the Actor model and started preaching the benefits of immutability that I really truly got it myself. < 1288691094 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang is beautiful. < 1288691098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: erm, you do realise Scheme basically *debunked* the actor model? < 1288691105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was its claim to fame? < 1288691129 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I should probably have included "stuff like". < 1288691158 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I went through shitloads of research articles and actual programs written in various languages and taking different approaches to concurrency and parallelism. < 1288691167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It was originally created as a vehicle to explore the actor model. But then they realised that their code for procedures and actors were identical, and so they dropped the actor code, and everything worked fine. < 1288691170 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm partial to implicit parallelism and monads, as I said earlier. :P < 1288691171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actor model is silly. < 1288691186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implicit parallelism is rather impractical; it was tried with Haskell but didn't work very well at all. < 1288691204 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was tried? Is being tried. Is working just dandy, actually. < 1288691221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: no < 1288691228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you end up parallelising even trivial expressions < 1288691233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a well-known result in haskell circles < 1288691249 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There was some talk I watched in which the author of GHC discusses how he is solving those problems of granularity. < 1288691276 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the author" ahahaha < 1288691277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1288691326 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck, an author. < 1288691351 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be getting loopy here. < 1288691387 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Haskell definitely does sequential operations right, with monads, specifically encapsulating everything nicely in the type system. < 1288691416 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want everything to be immutable, monads are how you need to handle sequence. < 1288691472 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you could say I'm just stating "Haskell's way of doing things is the best way of doing things in Haskell". < 1288691482 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure whether you'd be right. < 1288691487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the high-echelon Haskell intelligentsia are dissatisfied with the IO monad. < 1288691493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that monads aren't just about state and side effects... < 1288691612 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Of course. Which Haskelligentsia in particular? < 1288691622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conal Elliott is the main one. < 1288691625 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(By the way, I think it was Simon Peyton Jones in that lecture.) < 1288691640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that if you say "Haskell with the IO monad is a purely functional language", then C is purely functional, too. < 1288691650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The implication being *the IO monad is not functional, it is imperative*. < 1288691665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there is a functional way to do these things, FRP. Although nobody's quite figured it out yet :-) < 1288691670 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/ < 1288691676 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right, but who needs I/O? :P < 1288691677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My first inclination was to suggest that Haskell, as commonly practiced (with monadic IO), is not a functional language either. Instead, I’m going to explain how it is that the C language is purely functional." < 1288691823 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so did you get long mode running yesterday? < 1288691831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yesterday? I haven't slept! < 1288691837 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, I wonder how scathing he intended this to be. It could be read as fun and light, but it could conceal some dark cynicism. :P < 1288691837 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have! < 1288691838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Wait, you've slept? But it went by so quickly... < 1288691855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I decided, upon looking at your code, that what the fuck long mode is complicated and I love protected mode and my babies are all raised in a system of protectedm ode. < 1288691859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*protected mode. < 1288691869 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, well, I didn't get much sleep tonight < 1288691874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: He's not cynical, he just doesn't think the IO monad is functional, and he thinks that FRP is nicer. :) < 1288691885 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A fair assessment. < 1288691888 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most plausible scenario in which I am still awake at midnight involves dubious amounts of cocaine. This is not reassuring. < 1288691942 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Don't worry, it'll all be sorted out eventually. Hell, depending on how things go, you might be awake for the rest of your life. < 1288691958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take the cocaine. < 1288691961 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense of "set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life". :P < 1288691977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured. < 1288691982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After a few seconds of tired-induced dumbness. < 1288692018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omg, Debian dropped support for 6800. < 1288692024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beyond unacceptable. < 1288692046 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most complicated thing is to set up the page tables IMO, and that's not even that complicated < 1288692108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: but i'm a lazy, tired as hell fucker. < 1288692169 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Misintoned that as "But I'm a-lazy, tired as hell-fucker". That is, right now you're lazying, because you're as tired as someone who fucks hell. < 1288692193 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not necessarily "because", but at least "and also". < 1288692195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure you didn't parse that properly and then decide to misparse it? :) < 1288692269 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: English grammar is ambiguous. You can't prove anything. >_> < 1288692440 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write an esolang whose grammar is intentionally ambiguous, and whose parser decides between ambiguous expressions based on how amusing the result will be, rather than some arbitrary notion of "correctness" imposed by an ill-conceived attempt to implement DWIM. < 1288692483 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather it will be an arbitrary notion of "humour" imposed by an ill-conceived attempt to implement...uh, line? < 1288692577 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, save me! < 1288692581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ejrio < 1288692599 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not an English word. :/ < 1288692606 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I can't prove that. < 1288692815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prescriptivist! < 1288692830 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: as futile as this quest is when one is so tired -- and as irritable as i am -- would you like to know of my current programming endeavour? < 1288692852 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, if it keeps you awake and keeps me entertained, by all means. < 1288692900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: define a minimal term rewriting language L; write a short implementation of L in Haskell and a short implementation of L in L < 1288692904 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the latter is not short, redesign and repeat < 1288692912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aim for elegance on the level of the first lisp self-interpreter < 1288692927 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A noble goal, and far better-defined than mine! < 1288692950 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although what constitutes "short" is still subjective. < 1288692956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1288692971 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am aiming for the kind of thing you might see in a Functional Pearl paper. < 1288693030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The language needs a name -- perhaps "deinate", after DE-term-ine and term-INATE < 1288693050 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be interested to do some research into language minimisation like this. What is the minimal complete subset of L for which the self-hosted implementation is minimal? < 1288693062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: btw for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_rewriting < 1288693067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: wrt self-interpreting subsets, < 1288693073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/ < 1288693090 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Already saw the graph-rewriting article, while I was desperately fishing for examples in that department. < 1288693192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll call it dart < 1288693202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the one-qwerty-sidedness of that may irritate me at some point :) < 1288693211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck! no haskell-mode installed < 1288693222 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I love how it's defined as meta-circular based on the fact that it's already a strict subset of Scheme. It seems like a cheat. < 1288693234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i'm tired you DO NOT GIVE ME THE EMACS I DO NOT WANT, Operating System < 1288693249 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ ghci < 1288693249 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: ghci: command not found < 1288693251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASSHOLE < 1288693252 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dart is a good name. < 1288693253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1288693323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: see in my perfect os, when i tried to open an .hs file < 1288693331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would go "ok, i don't know what an .hs is; I'll look it up" < 1288693341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it sees, on the network, that .hs = haskell-mode is the most popular thing < 1288693348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would then obtain and use haskell-mode for me < 1288693353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't have to goddamn install it myself fffffffff < 1288693357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what tired does to me < 1288693365 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd add an interstitial confirmation dialog that allowed me to pick an alternative. < 1288693418 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.hs = haskell-mode. Install? (3 alternatives, y=install, n=more, x=cancel) < 1288693430 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For y, n, and x of your preference. < 1288693447 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't paid attention to any confirmation prompt in emacs for a long time. < 1288693458 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all chords all the time. < 1288693465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: no, because you could always just say < 1288693475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i would like to use a different mode" < 1288693479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would have suggestions for you < 1288693489 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M-x wrong-fucking-mode-emacs < 1288693490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no point prompting when a reasonable default can be picked, you can always override it < 1288693496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: precisely < 1288693510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, with elisp not exactly being secure and emacs sucking this will never happen :) < 1288693516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the very concept of a *file* is stupid... < 1288693526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so it's more like when you edit some text tagged as being haskell code or something, i guess < 1288693534 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you'd prefer to be able to arbitrarily scribble on your disk? :P < 1288693542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288693550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you know how you have nice structures and objects and things in memory? < 1288693557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're all rich and useful and aware of their own type? < 1288693566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: instead of just byte streams associated with names? < 1288693571 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, kinda. < 1288693582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: yeah, you put those objects on the disk. < 1288693594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and remove the artificial, historical RAM/disk address space distinction. < 1288693601 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In reality, in both places, you have bytes that are not associated with names. :P < 1288693611 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1288693627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every bit of data in a program is reachable by some accessor unless it's garbage or not your data < 1288693637 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The association is meta-information. < 1288693639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, at least, every piece of data has a name -- *(type *)address < 1288693646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you probably can't access most of them due to the security model < 1288693713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: here's the whiny, pissed-offness-induced rant i wrote about it early this year: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html < 1288693725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is about as coherent as i would be if i tried to explain it in this state :) < 1288693849 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So...you're saying that data of a certain type ought to have a canonical representation on disk? But...file formats are created for reasons other than circumventing the leaky abstractions of file systems. < 1288693881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too tired to talk about such a heated issue, sorry :) < 1288693898 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does encoding and decoding PNG streams really belong in a filesystem driver module? :P < 1288693904 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, okay. < 1288693915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does encoding and decoding PNG streams really belong in a filesystem driver module? :P < 1288693916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288693927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to actually read the article, even if it is whiny :) < 1288694049 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, carefully. If, say, PNG is the backing format of my image, and I query the filesystem to get at the image data, either the filesystem needs to decode it into the system's canonical representation of an image, or my application needs to decode it into whatever representation it sees fit. If you place it in the system driver, you've created a perfect abstraction at the cost of bloat,... < 1288694050 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...even if the bloat is modular. < 1288694059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no filesystem < 1288694062 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you place it in the application, you have the same problem. < 1288694064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are making an invalid assumption < 1288694074 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean to say "there is no filesystem"? < 1288694087 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see section 3 of the rant < 1288694097 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There has to be, at some level, a driver that manages the interaction between software and hardware. < 1288694144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disk is big object space, ram is smaller object space acting as cache and temporary modification holding area of disk < 1288694148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again see section three < 1288694155 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter *when* the serialisation takes place, but at the hardware level, it has to happen. < 1288694180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you understand < 1288694196 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that the driver doesn't implement a "file system", but rather persistent storage of objects < 1288694197 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay, here's a use case, and you give me the underlying do-how. < 1288694207 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what olsner said < 1288694221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, ram is simply a cache of a selection of objects from disk that are being used right now < 1288694231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modifications to the ram copies automatically are synchronised to disk < 1288694239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can refer to any object whether it's in ram or not, and it will be loaded from disk < 1288694243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ram is managed by the os < 1288694244 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, elliott: I understand that, but I'm asking how an application actually interacts with it. < 1288694256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok, here's an example < 1288694261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say {} is an object < 1288694272 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myProgram = {masterpieces: {}}; < 1288694289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :func myProgram.createMasterpiece(foo) { masterpieces.append(foo) } < 1288694296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :func myProgram.masterpieceNumber(n) { masterpieces[n] } < 1288694304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :func myProgram.editMasterpiece(n, foo) { masterpieces[n] = foo } < 1288694307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :create ui around that, etc. < 1288694314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this object is automatically synchronised to disk < 1288694318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so every masterpiece is stored on disk < 1288694326 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if masterpiece N is loaded, but it's not in ram < 1288694328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets loaded from disk < 1288694365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think olsner gets it :) < 1288694435 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, but that implies that the names and identities of objects are inherent in the models and implementations of the languages involved. How does a C++ program accomplish the same thing without losing performance to the fact that its memory model is no longer just flat bytes, but some kind of associative store? < 1288694454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: who says its memory model isn't flat bytes? < 1288694458 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internal representation is irrelevant here < 1288694462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, in fact, forget C++ even exists < 1288694472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bad enough trying to explain this to people without thinking about that awful abomination too < 1288694523 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how objects look when loaded into programs is pretty much irrelevant to the idea, I think < 1288694547 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes, but how do they get there and back? < 1288694564 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :through an API, using abstractions < 1288694580 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: they don't < 1288694584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the program's point of view < 1288694585 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is what I was asking about, elliott. < 1288694587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every object is always there < 1288694598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because it hasn't referred to a list that's a property of one of its objects < 1288694600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't make it disappear < 1288694602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even after a reboot < 1288694603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is saved to disk < 1288694605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is simply there < 1288694609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you access it as a variable if it is a variable < 1288694613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a property if it is a property < 1288694616 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That only works in a language that is designed to support something similar. < 1288694617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with [n] if it's a list member < 1288694621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1288694622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are wrong < 1288694635 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I was going to present you with an example. < 1288694665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok, imagine a program < 1288694671 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a program that loads a PNG, performs a convolution on the image data, and outputs the result. < 1288694673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stores data, in memory, a text editor that stores stuff in memory, let's say < 1288694676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, let me finish < 1288694677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine that < 1288694681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now imagine you never close down the program, ever < 1288694689 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, if you had let me start in the first place...) < 1288694690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you know the "hibernate" feature of all modern OSes? < 1288694693 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288694701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, you could hibernate as much as you want when running this program < 1288694705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would still run just fine < 1288694713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: now imagine we wanted to store more documents than we have RAM < 1288694723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: imagine the computer is "constantly" hibernated -- the contents of RAM are constantly mirrored on disk < 1288694726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: now imagine inverting this < 1288694735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: "objects in memory" are considered to actually be on disk < 1288694742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: and RAM is merely where they are loaded to, when they are referenced < 1288694753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program still works, and it works even across total shutdowns < 1288694757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can store more documents than fit into ram < 1288694758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see now? < 1288694759 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, I've understood that bit. < 1288694793 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what I'm asking is what sort of API you would present, and how, from a programmer's point of view, it would actually change anything. < 1288694803 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't present any API < 1288694814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exact same program that was written for a normal OS is used in the final stage, there < 1288694927 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so a program that is designed around the concepts of loading and saving named files as unadorned byte streams will still work as expected. < 1288694933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1288694936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no filesystem api < 1288694942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that stores data, in memory, a text editor that stores stuff in memory, let's say < 1288694943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in memory* < 1288694945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it NEVER touches any files < 1288694950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is ENTIRELY in MEMORY < 1288694955 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the same program that was written for a normal OS will NOT work. :P < 1288694958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahiofASDfuigojdg < 1288694966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE PROGRAM THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR A NORMAL OS WAS THE ONE SPECIFIC PROGRAM THAT I DESCRIBED < 1288694969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT "ANY PROGRAM FOR A NORMAL OS" < 1288694974 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1288694977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*THAT* SPECIFIC PROGRAM, WHICH WAS WRITTEN FOR A NORMAL OS >_< < 1288694979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capslock over < 1288694984 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1288694988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame you for this :P < 1288695005 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My pleasure. :) < 1288695013 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to be irritating. < 1288695025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, and i don't hold it against you, it's just that you're succeeding :) < 1288695032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: btw, this is not some new-fangled concept. < 1288695035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the literature has done it to death. < 1288695037 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just...disagree with you, but you seem to think I don't understand you, so I'm trying to make sure I do before I assert you're incorrect. < 1288695042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think even freakin' *Multics* did it. < 1288695052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's 1969. < 1288695090 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So, alright...if I were to abstract "loading" as simply "the first read of an object, which implicitly brings it into working memory"... < 1288695099 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..."editing" as working on a copy of that object... < 1288695113 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and "saving" as commiting changes... < 1288695118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: committing? < 1288695120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no committing < 1288695126 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...then would an ordinary program... < 1288695129 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's not safe. < 1288695135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION facepalms
< 1288695139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: you take over, i'm done < 1288695166 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, have to go to work :) < 1288695167 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to decide when *not* to save your data is just as important as whether your data is retained. < 1288695172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit olsner < 1288695191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how about drop this and talk about it when i've actually slept :) < 1288695193 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, should've gone at least an hour ago < 1288695194 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If my documents are implicitly written to disk, how do I roll back changes? Are they versioned? < 1288695197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i'm just going to get really annoyed. < 1288695200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at your misunderstanding. < 1288695222 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying very hard to get this. < 1288695226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1288695230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't hold it against you :P < 1288695244 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. I guess right now it's just one of those things. < 1288695262 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's explained right, I'll get it, but until then, I feel as though it's a logical fallacy, or at least a bad idea. < 1288695265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: trust that i'm right, though :) < 1288695270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, you are misunderstanding badly. < 1288695281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filesystems have poisoned your brain :) < 1288695295 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I will not trust that you're right, only that you think you're right, and you may very well be, but I don't know that yet. < 1288695312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if it helps, i am *far* from the only person to think this. < 1288695342 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I'm saying now is that there needs to be control over revisions in order for persistent objects to retain the backup-safety of traditional filesystems. < 1288695345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf haskell what f ijiojioj what is up with you my code is right < 1288695349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that is true, yes. < 1288695357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: but i was discussing an "api" issue not a UI one < 1288695358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1288695366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving on to things we can talk more productively about with my tiredness! < 1288695371 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very well! < 1288695383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DART < 1288695386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT REWRITES TERMS < 1288695392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : show (Conj xs) = map (\x -> '(' : show x ++ ")") xs < 1288695394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK < 1288695422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1288695471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (Show e) => Show (E e) where < 1288695471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : show (Atom s) = s < 1288695471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : show (Conj xs) = '(' : unwords (map show xs) ++ ")" < 1288695472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1288695514 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: bah, your error is obvious < 1288695519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it was < 1288695521 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $// < 1288695522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my defence < 1288695524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't slept < 1288695525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also your mom < 1288695548 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I feel bad for not noticing it. :P < 1288695576 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1288695578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someRule :: (HoleyE, SolidE) < 1288695578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someRule = (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", hole "x", hole "y"]], < 1288695578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : atom "x") < 1288695580 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo < 1288695581 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, doing multiple things at once. < 1288695585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay time to write unify < 1288695586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ?? < 1288695603 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Don't worry about it. < 1288695604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(SolidE, SolidE)] < 1288695605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1288695617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tempted to rename it HolyE < 1288695711 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sing it like this and you've got a deal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJlAop6SyLI < 1288695730 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNK IT IS THE BEST DON'T YOU KNOW < 1288695818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit! my unify function is almost written and it's so simpl;e < 1288695820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*simple < 1288695870 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functional programming is always startingly simple. < 1288695882 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my uncle is dying. :( < 1288695893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of funk? < 1288695895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry insensitive >__> < 1288695904 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, of pancreatic cancer, but you're close. < 1288695910 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it's cool. < 1288695922 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very easily offended. < 1288695922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have pancreatic cancer." "Oh. I'm in a funk band." "Ouch, sorry man." < 1288695930 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1288695944 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a reason that funk has "fun" in it, though. < 1288696016 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Quote from a friend of mine from his professor: '...teaching the Juniors about buttons: "Why does the download arrow point down? Because the internet is above us. Go outside, look up, and you'll see it."' < 1288696038 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's as good a justification as any. < 1288696064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. < 1288696072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love that < 1288696136 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, another friend of mine just got a tragus piercing, which looks way cooler than it ought to. < 1288696159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh piercings < 1288696206 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not into piercing enough to get anything done. Same with tattoos. Although I hope to get my tattoo license some day. < 1288696229 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means I'll basically have to practice on myself if I want to get practice on skin. < 1288696232 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288696234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find all piercings and tattoos unattractive. :/ < 1288696237 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I have a very tolerant partner. < 1288696265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[a]' < 1288696265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type `Maybe [(String, SolidE)]' < 1288696265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the first argument of `zipWith', namely `unify' < 1288696267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i... fuck you < 1288696274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1288696275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1288696432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: < 1288696435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> unify (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", hole "x", hole "y"]]) (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", atom "head", atom "tail"]]) < 1288696435 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just [("x",head),("y",tail)] < 1288696462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The first one there is (car (cons 'x 'y)). < 1288696466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The second is (car (cons head tail)). < 1288696478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: And so, it matches the latter against the former and tells me to bind x=head, y=tail. < 1288696485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: 'x means placeholder x, not quote x like in lisp.) < 1288696500 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ah, that threw me off a moment.) < 1288696534 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, I have no useful response at this time. < 1288696646 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it betray some latent sexism that I don't really care for female singers? < 1288696670 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or violinists. < 1288696692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singers no, violinists probably :P < 1288696752 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying nothing of skill. I just mean I can't tolerate watching a woman play a violin because something about it irks me, regardless of how brilliant she may be. < 1288696758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: anyway, here is my unify function < 1288696761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(String, SolidE)] < 1288696761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify (H (Atom s)) (S (Atom t)) | s == t = Just [] < 1288696761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify (H (Conj xs)) (S (Conj ys)) = fmap concat . sequence $ zipWith unify xs ys < 1288696761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify (Hole s) x = Just [(s,x)] < 1288696761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify _ _ = Nothing < 1288696766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOOK HOW TINY IT IS < 1288696770 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might have something to do with the fact that I can't reconcile the bearing of a violinist with the proportions of a woman. They seem incompatible somehow. < 1288696779 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is pretty. < 1288696844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My evaluator is going to be pretty inefficient. But I don't care much. < 1288696886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I *think* I'm going to end up with some form of dynamic scoping. Ha ha, what a life. < 1288697005 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Somehow I can't resist dynamic scoping with explicit dynamic imports. It's easy to implement and has the same effect as lexical scoping in most cases. You only have to worry about closures. *shrug* < 1288697024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ugh, just, no < 1288697026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have lambda < 1288697029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do lexical scoping < 1288697029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no arguments < 1288697031 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy < 1288697032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do it < 1288697037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i refuse to give you a choice < 1288697116 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But...but...dynamic scoping is more expressive! And more error-prone. :P < 1288697127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even mccarthy acknowledged it was a mistake < 1288697130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats motherfucking mccarthy < 1288697132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is never wrong < 1288697134 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, if you actually decide it's a good idea to do a dynamic import up the call stack. < 1288697134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up and lexicate < 1288697137 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's your problem. < 1288697141 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1288697146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do realise the problems are far deeper than that? < 1288697153 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah. < 1288697159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance if x is bound in your scope < 1288697161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have < 1288697166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambda () ... x ...) < 1288697171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be passed to another function or returned < 1288697171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1288697174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT X WILL BE < 1288697190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if anyone else decided to name a variable x anywhere else in your call stack at the time, it's not what you want. < 1288697253 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, judicious mixing of dynamic and lexical scoping is fine. I equate a lambda with a hygienic macro, in some ways. < 1288697284 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should just import at the point of instantiation and the closure lasts as long as the lambda exists. < 1288697292 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language is degrading. I hope I make any sense. < 1288697338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a bad person < 1288697342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1288697404 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1288697416 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, we've established that. I have strong opinions about language design, weakly held. < 1288697445 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm contrary and rebellious and however you've got to get it done, have at. < 1288697512 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, there? < 1288697519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> someExpr < 1288697519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(car (cons head tail)) < 1288697519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> someRule < 1288697519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((car (cons 'x 'y)),x) < 1288697519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> rewrite someExpr [someRule] < 1288697520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head < 1288697522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK YES < 1288697524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed < 1288697529 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, have you ever implemented an AVL tree or a Red-black tree? < 1288697551 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't recall ever doing so, but i've certainly read about implementing them < 1288697555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1288697585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, which type of self balancing binary tree would be easiest to implement? Certainly not red-black. < 1288697597 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess AVL might be easiest, but perhaps there is some other one? < 1288697615 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-54-4.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1288697634 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as for why: looking for what is easiest to memorise for an exam where something like this is likely to be required. < 1288697692 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chances of it requiring a specific variant is rather low... based on old exam papers for the same module < 1288697705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do whatever okasaki did :) < 1288697730 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, name rings a bell, can't place it *googles* < 1288697731 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, charlieissocoollike is so, like, cool. And cute. <3 < 1288697740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst name ever < 1288697759 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, purely functional data structures? < 1288697766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1288697767 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other google hits seem unlikely in the context < 1288697769 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: He did come up with it utterly arbitrarily by tacking on words instead of numbers to "charlie". < 1288697783 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I need me a username." < 1288697811 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"charlie. Damn. charlieiscool. Damn. charlieissocool. Damn. charlieissocoollike. Bingo!" < 1288697850 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite :: SolidE -> [(HoleyE, SolidE)] -> SolidE < 1288697851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite x ys = < 1288697851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case catMaybes $ map (\(l,r) -> fmap ((,) r) (unify l x)) ys of < 1288697851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (x',bs):_ -> rewrite x' (map (\(s,b) -> (atom s, b)) bs ++ ys) < 1288697851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [] -> x < 1288697852 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, what about charlieis? wouldn't that logically be a required step after the original? < 1288697858 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my defence, i do feel remorse for writing that. < 1288697902 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ask thee not! For verily I know not. < 1288697914 0 :Velmont!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288697914 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm unify? < 1288697919 0 :Velmont!odinho@knuth.ping.uio.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1288697926 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no lambdabot < 1288697934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my own function. < 1288697938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Velmont: hi oklopol-holder < 1288697945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(String, SolidE)] < 1288697945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify (H (Atom s)) (S (Atom t)) | s == t = Just [] < 1288697945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify (H (Conj xs)) (S (Conj ys)) = fmap concat . sequence $ zipWith unify xs ys < 1288697945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify (Hole s) x = Just [(s,x)] < 1288697945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify _ _ = Nothing < 1288697945 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah that explains why it wasn't in Prelude either < 1288697949 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1288697957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is actually pretty < 1288697966 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what are the data types HoleyE and SolidE? < 1288697987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data HoleyE = H (E HoleyE) | Hole String < 1288697988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SolidE = S (E SolidE) < 1288698010 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Hole being? < 1288698026 0 :Velmont!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Why did I cycle? Ah, server problems. Yes. < 1288698029 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1288698029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: a data constructor? < 1288698036 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, just woke up < 1288698046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i haven't slept in ... many hours < 1288698050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you'd do better to ask what E is < 1288698056 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I slept for um, 11 hours now < 1288698057 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data E e = Atom String | Conj [e] < 1288698066 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I challenge you to stay up as long as meee. < 1288698072 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1288698077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: essentially I took < 1288698082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data E = Atom String | Conj [E] < 1288698085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and separated the recursion out < 1288698089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data E e = Atom String | Conj [e] < 1288698093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SolidE = S (E SolidE) < 1288698098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now SolidE is equivalent to < 1288698104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E (E (E (E (E ...)))) < 1288698111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just with a data constructor in-between to make haskell happy < 1288698120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i used this to create < 1288698121 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where meee = (lambda (x) (me (me (me (x))))).) < 1288698122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data HoleyE = H (E HoleyE) | Hole String < 1288698128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is E with another constructor added on < 1288698130 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1288698147 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what are you trying to achieve with this? < 1288698154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically SolidE is an expression, and HoleyE is an expression with placeholders. < 1288698158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it is a term rewriting language < 1288698162 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1288698170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: unify and rewrite constitute the entire evaluation engine < 1288698172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it makes some sense < 1288698188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> someExpr < 1288698188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(car (cons head tail)) < 1288698188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> someRule < 1288698188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((car (cons 'x 'y)),x) < 1288698188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main Control.Monad> rewrite someExpr [someRule] < 1288698189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head < 1288698197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someExpr is a SolidE < 1288698201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someRule is a (HoleyE, SolidE) < 1288698207 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x represents Hole x < 1288698212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a b c) represents Conj [a,b,c] < 1288698216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and foo represents Atom "foo" < 1288698219 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*'x represents Hole "x" < 1288698222 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just shows that you can't figure out most haskell code from the data type names and function names + the type signatures alone. < 1288698274 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-9-137.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288698324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite :: SolidE -> [(HoleyE, SolidE)] -> SolidE < 1288698324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite x ys = < 1288698324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case mapMaybe (\(l,r) -> fmap ((,) r) (unify l x)) ys of < 1288698324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (x',bs):_ -> rewrite x' (map (first atom) bs ++ ys) < 1288698324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [] -> x < 1288698327 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's getting better... < 1288698330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes you can < 1288698337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just insufficiently thoughtful :) < 1288698339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and/or awake < 1288698349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so i'm using firefox, feel free to laugh at me < 1288698356 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why should I? < 1288698365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i hate firefox! < 1288698376 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: When FP is intuitive, you are in a certain state of Zen that can only result from one of a few things, of which lack of is the easiest to come by. < 1288698383 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sleep < 1288698395 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288698402 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as long as you don't use chatzilla you are unlikely to induce laughing < 1288698418 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Highly appropriate that I omitted "sleep" from a sentence about lack thereof.) < 1288698435 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm using Chatzilla because I am lazy. < 1288698447 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, you are not elliott however. < 1288698470 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: elliott is known for his, ah, well, he's opinionated, eh? < 1288698498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1288698506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'ALL DIPSHIT FUCKERS ARE WRONG < 1288698523 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, I guess you could say that. And I couldn't imagine him using chatzilla for any reason other than 1) because someone said he wouldn't 2) because he is not at his own computer and has no choice, but then he would probably use mibbit < 1288698582 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am slowly remembering how hard caffeine can be on an empty stomach. I need to remember to eat more. < 1288698582 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he now uses chatzilla he of course just proves that (1) holds. < 1288698584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of not-my computer has chatzilla? < 1288698584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1288698594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'm too sleep-deprived for that < 1288698601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: porridge, i feel, is good in these situations; i have been eating it < 1288698605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: do you guys even know what porridge it? < 1288698609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is? < 1288698618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, who knows. Maybe some RL friend's computer? < 1288698624 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but it's not so common. < 1288698629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i do not comprehend the conjunction of these two terms :) < 1288698632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: it's nice! < 1288698635 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288698702 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Over here people wouldn't generally know what you were talking about unless you said "oatmeal < 1288698705 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1288698707 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typing fail. < 1288698730 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*elliott: (the above, less fail). < 1288698732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: oatmeal isn't really the same thing though is it < 1288698735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean when people say oatmeal < 1288698741 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange, every night at the same time I get a few UDP packets to the same ports over my ipv6 tunnel from the same ip. Targeted at a specific non-existent IP on my subnet. < 1288698748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't mean rolled oats + milk + sugar do they? < 1288698756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mean a lovely sweet oaty sludge < 1288698762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they mean that but... not sweet and... weird < 1288698771 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the source ip is a he.net tunnel, I have a sixxs tunnel. So this makes no sense. < 1288698775 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oatmeal is just rolled oat porridge. < 1288698789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but how do you guys make it? well, when you do < 1288698802 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :destination ports: a sweep from 33476 to 33480 < 1288698846 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this night I'll put up tcpdump to actually dump the packets (all 40 bytes according to the ip6tables log) and figure out what they are < 1288698853 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: People usually buy the instant variety, that is, packets of oats and usu. dried apple that they add boiling water to to reconstitute into what, if you're lucky, may not turn into a brick in your belly. < 1288698874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that sounds rather terrible < 1288698875 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: People who know better buy plain old oats and work from there. :P < 1288698878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: it's not hard to prepare manually :P < 1288698903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Step one, buy Quaker oats. Their faith in God makes the oats superior. (I can see no other explanation for their obvious superiority over Scots Porage Oats.) < 1288698904 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Of course it sounds rather terrible. I was trying to make it sound terrible. < 1288698911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, as you can see, Scots can't spell. Fuckers.) < 1288698917 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Quaker wins. < 1288698918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, milk. < 1288698921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, microwave. < 1288698924 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, more milk! < 1288698925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, sugar! < 1288698928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, stir! < 1288698929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eat! < 1288698946 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have to have oats for breakfast, I think I'd prefer oat cakes and preserves. < 1288698955 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And butter. < 1288699028 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking of porridge... how many variants do you have? < 1288699042 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: @who? < 1288699051 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either of you < 1288699057 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both rather < 1288699114 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you can use wheat instead of oats < 1288699121 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so oatmeal hardly makes sense < 1288699136 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, hard to say. It's all oats, here, and the only real variety comes in the instant brands. Some are better than others, for instance Quaker makes a few good ones such as Simple Harvest, which is a multi-grain one that will make your guts happier than anything on the face of the planet. < 1288699146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: porridge here just means rolled oats. < 1288699151 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there's grits... < 1288699151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prepared in the way i describe. < 1288699158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you can add shit to it if you can't handle simplicity. < 1288699169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Porridge.jpg this is not porridge. < 1288699173 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, here it generally means wheat unless you specifically indicates something else < 1288699189 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grits is a corn-based porridgey stuff. < 1288699194 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly eaten in the South. < 1288699207 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porridge#Varieties <-- impressive list of different stuff you can use to make porridge! < 1288699238 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It bothers me that people outside America don't seem to know the different regions, and especially the different accents. I mean, yeah, most people here couldn't tell you shit about the UK, but I'd like the situation to be improved on both sides. < 1288699246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/scotts-oats.jpg THE ENEMY. < 1288699252 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rice is a quite common base too around here for it. < 1288699261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.english-shop.de/images/Quaker%20-%20Quaker%20Oats.jpg THE GOOD GUYS. < 1288699275 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What's your accent like? I mean, where are you from? < 1288699281 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You too. < 1288699314 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, Sweden < 1288699315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: My accent is pretty generic British, I think. Which of rhotic/non-rhotic is typical for Britain? Because I'm that one. < 1288699335 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhotic = pronounces Rs rather than long vowels. < 1288699346 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Britain...eh...well, you can't say. < 1288699350 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :England is typically non-rhotic. < 1288699354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :England, yes. < 1288699393 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So you wouldn't really know? < 1288699395 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, you call porridge made of rice "rice pudding" according to wikipedia < 1288699398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... is it? < 1288699401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I don't know. < 1288699406 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, know accent? < 1288699425 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the regions? < 1288699427 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I mean, are you saying you wouldn't know what sort of English accent you have, other than perhaps a Swedish-sounding one? < 1288699460 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Rice pudding is a cold, puddingy thing. How is that porridge? < 1288699469 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, indeed, I learnt UK English in school though. So Swedish sounding with some RP bits? < 1288699477 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: fair enough. < 1288699478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, then wikipedia fails somewhere < 1288699485 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rice pudding, sweetened rice porridges usually made with milk and commonly flavored with butter and baking spices such as cinnamon. In Nordic countries, it is a traditional breakfast for Christmas Eve." < 1288699498 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interwiki is to the porridge thing < 1288699508 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that quote is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porridge#Varieties < 1288699534 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh, okay. Rice pudding commonly refers to Tapioca pudding. < 1288699549 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1288699551 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles that
< 1288699554 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So it's just an issue of terminology. < 1288699565 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288699577 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, probably an Americanism. < 1288699598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree style tabs is so close to perfection, argh :) < 1288699615 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a semi-typical educated American accent, but it's tinged a bit with New England, which has its own idiosyncracies < 1288699626 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*idiosyncrasies < 1288699640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear the American accents are optimised for irritatingness. < 1288699643 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway common porridge bases around here: oats, wheat, rice, (looks at interwiki...) something called "semolina" in English it seems... < 1288699685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever since i heard lament's lounge version of O Fortuna < 1288699687 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Major accents in the US include New England, Eastern, South, Deep South, Appalachian, Great Basin, Midwest, North, Pacific Northwest, and West... < 1288699698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it hard to associate it with the orff version < 1288699699 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and there are loads of subdivisions in all of those. < 1288699703 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also rye < 1288699705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot rye < 1288699713 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe because I think it is so awful < 1288699717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o for-tu-na / velut lu-na < 1288699740 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You might be thinking of the fact that the only American accents any Brit ever imitates are the Southern hick drawl and the California ditzy girl. :P < 1288699753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: No, just Standard American. < 1288699765 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Seriously. American news programs can be really irritating. (Not talking about Fox.) < 1288699773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's brash like America. :) < 1288699776 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There is...not really such a thing, just like there's no "Standard English". < 1288699789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know i know < 1288699789 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I want to hear an example of an accent you find grating. < 1288699792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i basically mean all of them < 1288699800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :british accents are nice and that's it :P < 1288699832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay i found the link < 1288699834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/qyxpp/ofortuna.mp3 < 1288699838 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egh...I think some American accents are nice, some British accents are nice, some AustralioNewZealandarea accents are nice. It depends on a lot of things, including the personality and voice involved. < 1288699863 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, AU accents aren't too bad. Though I guess in the long run they could be irritating as well < 1288699875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to play this on loop FOREVER < 1288699876 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What is this that I'm hearing? < 1288699885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: lament's lounge version of O Fortuna. < 1288699891 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite chill. < 1288699895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: You know it as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrML6s1wNHk < 1288699927 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, yes I do. I sang it in choir. < 1288699943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Well, congrats; from now on, you will associate it with a chill lounge version. < 1288699979 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i'm going to play this on loop FOREVER <-- how do you plan to deal with the heat death of the universe? Compared to "forever" that is quite soon... < 1288699991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut UP O FORTUNA! < 1288699992 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a deep bass with a large high range. Not falsetto, head voice. I am missing a few notes, though. But it's always fun to surprise people with my low baritone on first meeting them, since I don't weigh much. < 1288700023 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People expect skinny guys to have high voices. < 1288700028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Detestable life / now difficult / and then easy! < 1288700030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO CATCHY < 1288700034 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, people don't give a damn about singers with low voices. :( < 1288700039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly I translated it^W^Wused Wikipedia's translation.) < 1288700044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Have to do this: < 1288700047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: CHOCOLATE RAIN < 1288700056 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: SOME STAY DRY AND OTHERS FEEL THE PAIN < 1288700078 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I will record myself singing that song if you give me an example of a general American accent you find grating. < 1288700104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually guess most american accents are fine < 1288700105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just < 1288700110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them are really terrible :) < 1288700119 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, undoubtedly. < 1288700139 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just love language stuff, so I'm interested in how we're viewed. Or, heard, rather. < 1288700263 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concepts of weeks make so little sense. < 1288700281 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes* < 1288700317 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You're quite right...segmenting time in a running period that doesn't line up with the rest of the calendar? What the heck? < 1288700323 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a start, the 52 weeks / year thingy? Not true for either normal or leap years. < 1288700348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmrg3owTRE < 1288700356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weeks are awesome < 1288700361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calenders are for ... RACISTS!!! < 1288700364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am incoheroehroehoehor < 1288700367 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*calendar < 1288700379 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7*52 is in fact 364 days < 1288700392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what she said. < 1288700415 0 :cheater_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1288700421 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: This is a disappointing video. All of the slang is from black pop-rap. : < 1288700424 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| < 1288700432 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so neutral my mouth fell off. < 1288700450 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you just passed the point between "sleep deprived and quite jolly" and "sleep deprived and incomprehensible" < 1288700467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can go back < 1288700472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: All of the American slang, sure :P < 1288700475 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hardly knew any of the supposed American slang, but had heard most of the supposed British. < 1288700481 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, thanks < 1288700494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: but only after WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOowoOOOoooOOOOOoooOOooo < 1288700496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok'y < 1288700498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1288700520 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, maybe a bitmask would be a better representation of these states... < 1288700527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mother's a bitmask. < 1288700548 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Badonkadonk? That's a fantastic word." Hugh purrs. < 1288700591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall a particularly memorable moment in House when Hugh Laurie got the chance to, while putting on an excellent American accent, put on a terrible British accent. < 1288700595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was just glorious. < 1288700602 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, that sounds familiar. < 1288700633 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daniel Radcliffe appeared on Ellen and did a solid Northeastern American. < 1288700818 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you think it's fair to say that Americans doing British accents usually end up sounding either way too posh or way too "Oi fink oi'm tehnin into a Ci'y Bri'ish"? < 1288700833 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in'ew < 1288700846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: i think it's safe to say that i have seen few try, presumably because they're not idiotic enough to think they could pull it off < 1288700889 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Makes sense. Oh, lemme look something up. < 1288700975 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A friend of mine attempting (and not accomplishing) a "British accent": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DUqw3R8KnI < 1288701014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 seconds in and i want to stab someone < 1288701019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an achievement! < 1288701035 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know, she's a nice girl but she makes me cringe. :P < 1288701061 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is an example of "too posh", I think, but also just awkward. < 1288701074 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At one point she slips into something that sounds more like Edinburgh. :P < 1288701289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://addons.mozilla.org/img/uploads/previews/full/11/11593.png?modified=0 < 1288701362 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What is this dark magic? < 1288701368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fox Splitter" < 1288701370 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Split Browser? < 1288701371 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1288701373 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same idea. < 1288701394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: same extension < 1288701395 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just got renamed < 1288701404 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there you go. < 1288701854 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE CONVERSATION MUST NOT DIE < 1288701882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRATERTRETERT < 1288702200 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288702204 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think it's about time I quit and started preparing for the day ahead. < 1288702211 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh hai. < 1288702219 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Seriously? < 1288702225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I thought you were going to stay up ridiculous times. < 1288702232 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1288702233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misparsed. < 1288702234 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I have class in an hour and change. < 1288702255 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I meant like take a shower and brush my teeth and stuff. < 1288702283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO QUIT IRC! < 1288702284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ais523. < 1288702300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1288702306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in a seminar, but it hasn't started yet < 1288702333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seminarl! wow that was terrible < 1288702340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm sleep-deprived; isn't that fun? < 1288702343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is fun! < 1288702353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're acting sleep-deprived, at least < 1288702363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what caused it? did you stay up all night worrying about Vorpal's exam? < 1288702373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION picks the most recent sleep-deprivation cause mentioned in this channel
< 1288702379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, extrapolation, it's science! < 1288702386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, yes I did < 1288702397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was so worried he might pass, thus furthering his education and potentially putting him in a future position of power. < 1288702399 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worried all night. < 1288702421 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's true, every word. We changed the logs to protect the guilty. < 1288702444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Or, if you're concerned with things such as facts, it's because as of yesterday my sleep schedule was precisely upside down, and I have to be up at 9 am tomorrow. < 1288702480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1288702494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happens to me quite a bit < 1288702508 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a regular timetable seems to help solve it, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily worth solving < 1288702526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah school usually ... "helps" < 1288702552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you have half-term last week? < 1288702555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm just going to start taking melatonin if I keep being as sleepcrastinaty as I have been. < 1288702563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288702583 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What for? < 1288702587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ? < 1288702590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Iceweasel, an extension or a plugin has been installed, upgraded or removed by the system. < 1288702590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is strongly recommended to restart Iceweasel. < 1288702590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want to restart it now?]] < 1288702605 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Half-term". < 1288702624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It's a holiday half-way through the high school and lower "term". < 1288702632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lasting a week. < 1288702654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no school today? < 1288702660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1288702668 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1288702674 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about tomorrow? < 1288702680 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes tomorrow < 1288702693 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's time for me to quit and get ready for MY seven hours of class, thank you very much. < 1288702708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I saw the word "semen" in that sentence. < 1288702711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not even sure where. < 1288702714 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, 7 hours? can't be university then < 1288702716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo, my reading abilities are declining. < 1288702717 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"seven, time". < 1288702726 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: University indeed. < 1288702727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was probably seven, yeah. < 1288702738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those pesky m-looking vs. < 1288702746 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The talk was good tonight, anyway. < 1288702750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, seminar time < 1288702752 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, huh, generally for me it is spread out all over the week so you have 2 hours there, and then an hour free and then two hours somewhere else < 1288702761 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll keep the channel posted on that language. < 1288702764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288702766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *day presumably < 1288702779 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ? < 1288702787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what you said made little sense < 1288702787 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have a weird schedule this quarter. 1 hour on Mondays and Wednesdays, then seven solid on Tuesdays and Thursdays. :P < 1288702794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i see < 1288702796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nm < 1288702812 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :majorly inconvenient, not enough time to go home during between since it takes about 1.5 hours home by bus from university < 1288702821 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, ah < 1288702837 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That sucks for you. At least I have the luxury of living on campus. < 1288702855 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, technically I had 6 hour labs, though almost always I finished before half the time. < 1288702867 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, cheaper to live with parents :P < 1288702881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: BUT I THOUGHT SWEDEN PAID FOR EVERYTHING < 1288702883 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, and by car it takes much less. Half an hour or so. < 1288702912 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Parents are seven hours away. :P And the longest class I ever had that consistently lasted that long was the four-hour critique sessions for my life drawing class back when I was an art major. < 1288702913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wait < 1288702919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^ // < 1288702921 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, ah < 1288702926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't i resize my columns in emacs < 1288702928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to resize rows < 1288702930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but columns no < 1288702930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1288702941 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What do you mean by "resize columns"? < 1288702943 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, what do you study now? < 1288702949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean resize the split columns < 1288702975 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming. < 1288702985 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, heh < 1288702996 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, CS for me < 1288703005 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, rather modern CS sadly < 1288703040 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It should be obvious that I don't really need the programming study, but it's better for me to have a science degree than one in arts. < 1288703048 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I originally went into the design major because, you know, I'm better at programming, so I wanted to round out my education. < 1288703053 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, mhm < 1288703061 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did well, but it wasn't satisfying. < 1288703062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming. < 1288703066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those both sound like the most obnoxious things ever < 1288703085 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, that doesn't work because you wouldn't have papers to show future employers that you knew programming < 1288703103 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1288703112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not joking, they do. < 1288703112 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not really. It's just the university's blanket term for game design, web design, and other interactive stuff. < 1288703119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i stand by my opinion :) < 1288703124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even software engineering! < 1288703137 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh uh < 1288703150 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, saying that means he must loath whatever it is < 1288703157 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,// < 1288703157 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Look, I can study high-level and esoteric theoretical computer science on my own time. In school I want to be forced to practice marketable skills so I don't let them atrophy. < 1288703160 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn dab complete < 1288703167 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab* < 1288703189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i don't actually mind software engineering < 1288703194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i just wish it wasn't taught as CS < 1288703198 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1288703240 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1288703240 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And New Media majors have to take programming and software engineering in addition to mathematics and art and interface design and user experience design. < 1288703257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, i shudder to think what a modern UI design course looks like. < 1288703287 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not so bad, actually. The jury is in on what constitutes good graphic design for user interfaces. :P < 1288703299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no comment < 1288703311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so have you slept yet < 1288703316 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hint: it's exactly the same as good graphic design in general. < 1288703317 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh or did you just sleep < 1288703322 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right you just slept for ages < 1288703330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: if i talk i'll argue so just don't < 1288703335 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baaah I really need to go, yeah. < 1288703344 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll talk to you guys later. < 1288703346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah, I didn't even have time to type "see scrollback" before you answered yourself :P < 1288703356 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I would have done that < 1288703377 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: woof < 1288703386 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I had got to "as I said before, I " when you answered yourself) < 1288703390 0 :evincar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later, pup. < 1288703392 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotten* < 1288703448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1288704762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how my type recursion is reflected everywhere < 1288704762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming. < 1288704763 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1288704766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e :: (EC e) => Parser e -> Parser e < 1288704767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e ee = atom <$> identifier < 1288704767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <|> conj <$> many1 ee < 1288704768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holey :: Parser HoleyE < 1288704770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holey = e holey <|> (char '\'' >> hole <$> identifier) < 1288704779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1288704780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solid :: Parser SolidE < 1288704780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solid = e solid < 1288706094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ballot Title < 1288706094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statement of Subject: Initiative Measure No. 1069 concerns the state seal. < 1288706095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Concise Description: This measure would require the Washington State Seal to depict a tapeworm attached to a taxpayer’s intestine, encircled by the words: Committed to sucking the life blood out of each and every taxpayer. < 1288706095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should this measure be enacted into law? Yes [ ] No [ ] < 1288706095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ballot Measure Summary < 1288706096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This measure would require the Seal of the State of Washington to be changed to depict a vignette of a tapeworm dressed in a three piece suit attached to the lower intestine of a taxpayer shown as the central figure. The seal would be required to be encircled with the following words: “Committed to sucking the life blood out of each and every tax payer.” The illustration would be selected from subm < 1288706101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issions submitted by taxpayers. < 1288706346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1288706408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wtf < 1288707692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Firefox logo, the very reason why Iceweasel exists, is now free as in speech. Its use is still limited by trademarks, but it is free." < 1288707693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as of this year < 1288707699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/99d80bc3f18b < 1288707762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hacking for Christ" -- a worse blog title, i cannot imagine. < 1288707775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Yes, I'm a Christian, and I am one because I am convinced that two thousand years ago, God walked on the earth in order to reveal himself to us. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, predicted in advance, show that he was not merely a 'good man' or even just a prophet. He brought a message of the need to turn away from our rebellion against God (what the Bible calls "sin"), and he made availabl < 1288707775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e free, unconditional forgiveness for past and future sins to all who put their trust in him.]] < 1288707778 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, you're crazy. < 1288708045 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288708088 0 :alcatraz!~damiano@host71-101-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1288708130 0 :alcatraz!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288708195 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288708348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1288708425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the trademark thing -- "you can't call it Firefox if you do changes we don't like" -- was the main reason they had to rebrand it to Iceweasel. Sure, the logo was non-free copyright-wise, so they dropped the logo and still called the browser Firefox, and then the Mozilla folks complained that you can't do that. (Admittedly I haven't really followed it that much.) < 1288708442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1288708901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288708918 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288708933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Actually, the logo was the main reason. < 1288708942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've been interesting-tarpitting! < 1288709565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288709843 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1288710469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, they've replaced gconf. < 1288712808 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1288712988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why haven't KDE and Xfce merged? Can they merge or does the source code not go good together? I know you can run them side by side, but I want Xfce and KDE to merge into one awesome DE (Desktop Environment)! If they could merge or if anyone knows a way to merge them then it would be better than e17 and/or Gnome, at least for me." --Ubuntu Forums < 1288713205 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288713524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, Linux didn't use revision control until 2002. < 1288713724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants everyone to stop torrenting him already
< 1288713731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1288713775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or downloading me < 1288713778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://freshwap.net/284/dl/sgeo < 1288713834 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty clear that it will claim that there are links for anything you search for < 1288713850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real mystery is how Google Alerts managed to find it as containing sgeo < 1288716983 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288717154 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good afternoon < 1288717318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288717643 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you there? < 1288718246 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1288718448 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jackoz, you square? < 1288718475 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ln :( < 1288718549 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288718597 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288719405 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1288719405 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1288719405 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1288719405 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1288719411 0 :Zuu!zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1288719411 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1288719411 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1288719429 0 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1288719643 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1288719852 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1288719962 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288720924 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1288721009 0 :xtreme!~root@gw-pppoe.vespanet.com.br JOIN :#esoteric < 1288721019 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1288721482 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it me, or did this channel suddenly become < 1288721485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME < 1288721526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xcellent < 1288721856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtreme even IRCs as root < 1288721860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz hes xtreme < 1288721958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288722005 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I need an advice < 1288722034 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you seem quite fond of functional programming :) < 1288722140 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1288722152 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excuse me < 1288722198 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtreme: Yes, we're all aware you're here, you have to actually say something with substance to get a meaningful response :P < 1288722203 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it channel is wikipedia? < 1288722225 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION elliott ... O_O ... that was the wtfiest thing ever said on IRC.
< 1288722232 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAY < 1288722233 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err < 1288722241 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtreme: I have no idea what that means :P < 1288722277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtreme: Yes, it channel is Wikipedia. < 1288722351 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1288722426 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you make here? < 1288722448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtreme: We make spells and knowledge. < 1288722516 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is curious < 1288722528 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean asking if *it* channel is Wikiedia < 1288722552 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kkk < 1288722562 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who are you? < 1288722565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xtreme: ah yes, we are racists too < 1288722571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kkk are good friends of ours < 1288722672 0 :xtreme!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288722685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;___; < 1288722685 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you played that one too hard :( < 1288722697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP #esoteric's xtremeness 2010 -- KKK < 1288722720 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think he was looking for esoteric issues? < 1288722730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he was confused, and I have no idea. < 1288722821 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWHO < 1288722823 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moving on :P < 1288722858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Finnish grocery store chain ran by a company called Kesko; their stores used to be called "K-kauppa" ("K-store") way back when; then they clustered the stores by size so that the smallest ones have one K, "regular"-sized ones are "market"s with two K's (so "KK-market"), big ones are "supermarket"s with three ("KKK-supermarket") and huge ones are "citymarket"s with four ("KKKK-citymarket"). < 1288722881 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason you don't much see signage with the full "KKK-supermarket" name nowadays, it's mostly just "K-supermarket". < 1288722889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Krazy Ku Klux Klan < 1288722915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a picture of one at http://failblog.org/2008/08/19/supermarket-fail/ < 1288723017 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME <-- how so? < 1288723024 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_X < 1288723025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice comments: "It's not fake, it's in Finland." Yeah, that's pretty much synonymous. < 1288723030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal fail < 1288723046 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not convinced that Finland actually exists. < 1288723062 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, meme? < 1288723078 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "xtreme" had just joined the channel X_X < 1288723082 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1288723083 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1288723093 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, was there a netsplit or something when I quit? < 1288723100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split) < 1288723122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, yes. < 1288723135 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But it was easier to copy-paste than to type four characters.) < 1288723141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except that now I had to explain.) < 1288723144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I'm still doing it.) < 1288723165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: I'm not convinced that Finland actually exists. < 1288723176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As we have discussed, there are three people in Finland, and five of them are in this channel. < 1288723178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of them drives the bus. < 1288723186 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, probably a leaf since I lost connection to the server < 1288723187 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, well, I'm not convinced that YOU do! Or your MOM. < 1288723212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or your FACE. < 1288723367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a rather popular (well, in Finland) Twitter account called "sporakuski" ("tram driver", colloquially), where a tram driver tweets about all the stuff he does to annoy customers. ("How fast does the tram go when it's full of old ladies? As fast as it can! AHAHA!" and so on.) < 1288723385 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There's a picture of one at http://failblog.org/2008/08/19/supermarket-fail/ <-- the comments are sad, they fail to take into account the different language and so on < 1288723441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it *is* the fail blog. < 1288723487 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1288723631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Don't you mean the bus driver? < 1288723656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: "830 followers" -- that counts as rather popular in Finland? < 1288723668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's an achievement considering there's only two Finns who could friend him. < 1288723674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friend, follow, whatever. < 1288723691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, he seems to have stopped tweeting in February, so maybe people have unfollowed. < 1288723725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That would be a strange reason to unfollow someone as it has no effect on you and you wouldn't be able to see if he started again. < 1288723740 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a Klan Market pretty near my place -- been there several times -- assuming I managed to do a Google Street View link right: http://p.zem.fi/kkk-market < 1288723786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Whoa, they know which way the walls of the building curve. < 1288723787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scary. < 1288723803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's from the laser range-finders, I think. It is scary indeed. < 1288723872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't want Google to know that :( < 1288723998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to attempt to watch the black hole episode of SG-1 again
< 1288724012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries not to have an aneurism
< 1288724019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: *aneurysm < 1288724029 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a link here I think elliott would really like, but I'm afraid it would be a time-waster. < 1288724033 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will never learn how to spell that word < 1288724034 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus it would be evil to paste it < 1288724111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't mind. < 1288724117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have time to kill until sleep. < 1288724125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=x^2 <-- Apparently LaTeX rendering counts as a chart now. Who knew? < 1288724157 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you know the evil overlord list of things to do/don't do? Well, tvtropes has a link-heavy version of it. Plus this additional list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesAdditionalEvilOverlordVows < 1288724182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ooh, that's SUBJECTIVE! < 1288724186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should move it to a TroperTales page. < 1288724191 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1288724221 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, the trope names are subjective, how do they deal with that? < 1288724236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: with the power of idiocy < 1288724278 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hah < 1288724339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hypothesis: the size of a wiki and the stupidity of the editing rules are directly proportional. < 1288724365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmm, C2 isn't exactly big, but it's not tiny either, and their policies are almost universally good < 1288724368 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at wikipedia < 1288724373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, it *is* old-school. < 1288724378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the oldest school. < 1288724383 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1288724406 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wikipedia has loads of stupidity, tvtropes recently started getting some < 1288724772 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288725455 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1288725570 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now on the verge of physically strangling my computer. < 1288725582 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After Googling where a computer's trachea is, of course. < 1288725815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, this is a first. < 1288725826 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have just seen someone argue that giving away software for free is *wrong*. As in morally. < 1288725831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your own software. That you made. < 1288725833 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1288725914 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, uh < 1288725920 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how did he/she justify it? < 1288725935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the context of mobile apps, but still: < 1288725939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let's not beat around the bush. Free apps are evil. [...] When you make an app that you've sweated over and spent days crafting—so it's as good as it can be—you owe it to yourself to charge for that app. Otherwise what you're saying is your app is worthless; it's literally not worth even a small amount of someones hard earned cash. What, not even the cost of chocolate bar? Seriously can this be ri < 1288725939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ght?" < 1288725957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The entire, mind-numbingly colossal idiocy: http://brendandawes.posterous.com/great-work-is-worth-paying-for-why-free-apps < 1288725987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The post after that one on this moron's blog: "This looks fantastic. Nodebox meets Processing." < 1288725993 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My initial guess would've been some sort of "teach a man to fish" logic, about not giving other people ready-made stuff; I wouldn't have guessed *that*. < 1288725994 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, NodeBox and Processing. < 1288725998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two open-source applications. < 1288726003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distributed freely over the Internet. < 1288726012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both worthless. < 1288726013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and running on OS X, based, at the bottom of it all, on FreeBSD. < 1288726019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open source... < 1288726025 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1288726025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distributed freely over the Internet... < 1288726028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not even a chocolate bar. < 1288726043 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, do you expect idiocy to actually be consistent? < 1288726057 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell no. < 1288726067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Amazing birthday present from Lisa: an F78 Henning Andreasen phone!" < 1288726067 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1288726070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She gave you that birthday present for nothing? < 1288726076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess she didn't think it was worth anything. < 1288726081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like you got punk'd, my friend. < 1288726089 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you have to post this in the comments. < 1288726096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am far too lazy for that. < 1288726110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he'd make some ridiculous "well, it only applies to devices you can fit in your pocket" excuse. < 1288726151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.brendandawes.com/project/mac-osx-hard-drive-icons/ < 1288726155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are offering these icons for free? < 1288726160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, they are worthless, I presume? < 1288726163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I want them? < 1288726463 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how'd you come across it? < 1288726513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: links from places that link to link that etc < 1288726635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can download the source files for the presentation but note you'll need to grab the various libraries yourself - it won't run without them." < 1288726637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For FREE?! < 1288726706 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181141015.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1288727261 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, huh, someone just spammed #freenode with a message that included "/join #freenode" < 1288727286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1288727290 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and again < 1288727301 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he got klined < 1288727312 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no, killed < 1288727325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: aww < 1288727327 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paste the spam here? < 1288727339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it will probably show up again soon enough < 1288727346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, since it already did once after the first kill < 1288727398 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if it doesn't show up soon I'll paste it or something, though it really wasn't that interesting apart from the fact I mentioned < 1288727424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if RPM has been unfairly maligned
< 1288727429 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the standard criticisms again? < 1288727462 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Red Had < 1288727464 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Hat < 1288727475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, my main criticism of it is the experience of RPM hell < 1288727481 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that it is cpio-based iirc < 1288727482 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has, admittedly, been making me money < 1288727497 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as has Hasbro < 1288727537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro ports uh < 1288727541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, can't figure that one out < 1288727562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Isn't RPM hell just... I mean, how is it different from the hypothetical "deb hell"? < 1288727575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpio -- well, debs are freakin' ars < 1288727586 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, deb hell never happened. < 1288727604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Then what *is* RPM hell? < 1288727615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would deb hell require generally installing individual debs instead of using apt? < 1288727617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And was it RPM's fault, or just bad distribution managers? I have never seen a satisfactory explanation. < 1288727631 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell#Platform-specific < 1288727651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# RPM hell - A form of dependency hell occurring in the Red Hat distribution of Linux and other distributions that use RPM as a package manager[3]." < 1288727653 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think it might have been a combination of red hat and rpm. This was back on red hat 5 or so < 1288727655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not explain a thing. < 1288727671 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see the entire article for what dependency hell is < 1288727684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what dependency hell is, Vorpal. < 1288727686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not a moron. < 1288727693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I do not see how it is specific to .rpm, rather than .deb and the like too. < 1288727735 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to reinstall Ubuntu from scratch.
< 1288727748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serves me right for listening to Vorpal. < 1288727750 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, true, iirc old versions of RPM was prone to this due to not having very good ways to specify dependencies. This was so long ago I don't remember the details... < 1288727755 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what? < 1288727782 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, stuff like not being able to say "needs a version between x and y of package z" but only "need package z" or "need package z version w" < 1288727793 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's an unfair slander, but this computer is being unbearable and I won't stand for it any longer. < 1288727819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: according to a quick google, RPM hell was really the problem of the central repos being sparse, and so you'd have to use other repos which would install conflicting versions of libraries sometimes < 1288727830 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, err okay. So I was not involved in whatever it was? Good. < 1288727842 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that too < 1288727880 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, well, you delayed me by 3 days, so you must bear some responsibility. < 1288727882 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, and the limited dependency specification support of old versions of rpm didn't help < 1288727883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Right. So now everyone is afraid of rpm for no reason. :) < 1288727886 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, rebooting now. < 1288727886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently the RPM structure is generally bad with dealing with awkward situations < 1288727892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Seen the spam. < 1288727897 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, indeed, though not as bad as it used to be < 1288727899 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a half-complete upgrades < 1288727904 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right < 1288727911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I wonder why they want people to use SASL so much. < 1288727925 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the spammers you mean? Who knows. < 1288728028 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a ##comment-on-spam channel < 1288728038 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Yes there is. < 1288728041 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1288728049 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal, well, you delayed me by 3 days, so you must bear some responsibility. <-- how < 1288728140 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1288728151 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I remember getting a version conflict on glibc on red hat < 1288728574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Slackware libc5 → glibc update was... somewhat problematical, too. Slackware and package management, though... < 1288729108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not quite hardcore enough for Slackware. < 1288729144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tarball + dependency list + install/uninstall script + list of non-configuration files so uninstall works + simple package manager that just recurses if there's unsatisfied dependencies. < 1288729150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's the minimum I could live with. < 1288729217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to find an acceptable form of identification so I can vote. < 1288729230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My driver's license is missing, so can't do that. < 1288729239 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, signature... < 1288729245 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just needed to sign < 1288729265 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then again, registering to vote... I think it may be a bit late for that < 1288729274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already did register. < 1288729282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still need identification to vote. < 1288729303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq is going to write-in Sarah Palin. In every box. Yes, including *those* boxes. < 1288729311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Birth Certificate counts. < 1288729329 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't vote in each race < 1288729337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the ones I had some inkling of a clue about < 1288729363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though I saw Tax Revolt Party in some races. After I voted, I kept wondering if I should have voted against them. < 1288729389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fucking birth certificate counts. < 1288729390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations -- the US has managed to convince you that voting is about voting against *them*, not voting for *them*. < 1288729398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: DEN I GUESS OBAMA CAN'T VOTE HUH? < 1288729434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "The Tax Revolt Party benefits from New York's electoral fusion laws that permit a single candidate to receive endorsements from multiple parties. The Tax Revolt Party only endorses Republican Party candidates." < 1288729445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!5ce9ae75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.233.174.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288729514 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I tell the Ubuntu installer to use a partition as an ext4 filesystem and mount it at a location, but don't tick the "format" box, does it just mount it and leave it alone? < 1288729516 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine voting for a Republican some day. If said Republican were to break with party on HCR, and supported LGBT rights < 1288729546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. < 1288729552 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. < 1288729556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the Democrat were to do something incredibly offensive < 1288729562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Note: If you lose your data, it's not my problem. < 1288729572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... As does any other government documentation that has name and address on it. < 1288729576 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or idiotic [ not knowing amendments, say ] < 1288729595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a shitty-ass requirement. < 1288729595 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'd vote for a Republican if they were entirely unlike a Republican and the Democrats were unpalatable! < 1288729619 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: goddamn it, I need a definite answer here. < 1288729627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it won't wipe it. < 1288729639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it *does*, by some weird turn of events, you cannot hold me responsible < 1288729691 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't risk it. < 1288729715 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manually setting it up should be easy enough. < 1288729724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Howcome one can't nick to "Q"? < 1288729726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ... < 1288729730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It *will not wipe your drive*. < 1288729739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You are confusing a "cover my ass clause" with an "unsureness clause". < 1288729743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also: < 1288729749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Before formatting ANY partitions, the installer TELLS YOU it's going to. < 1288729758 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, that's not why. < 1288729759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you don't tick format, and it doesn't list it, it won't be formatted. < 1288729770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ...it is *designed to be able to do this* < 1288729777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1288729798 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Freenode cares that people not confuse a user Q from a services Q on another network < 1288729845 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, call me paranoid. It's next to no extra work and a lot of worrying off my mind. < 1288729864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not paranoid; crazy. The Ubuntu installer cannot wipe any partition without displaying it in the preceding step first. < 1288729895 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, I'm not worried about accidental formatting, more overwriting during the installation process. Probably crazy as well. < 1288729902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what? < 1288729938 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really can't be bothered getting into this over what is, ultimately, an utterly trivial matter. < 1288730042 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, I am informed that I will become a hopeless deadbeat with no prospects in life unless I write an essay on a poem. < 1288730083 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay for the education system! < 1288730124 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1288730132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288730156 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288730439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1288730497 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-140.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288731064 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1288731097 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1288731161 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288731195 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-140.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288732633 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized: when allocating pages you may need to allocate pages for page tables < 1288732703 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, seemingly very difficult things always turn out to be the easy parts, and vice versa < 1288733005 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm2glu3WLGk < 1288733016 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this by the same Tool whose lyrics I'm supposed to hate? < 1288733109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finished voting
< 1288733126 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1288733172 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tuesday voters were advised to pay special attention to the ballot itself, which included at least one error. It did not properly instruct voters to fill in the oval below the name of the candidate of their choice." < 1288733174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1288733208 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looked like the oval I filled in was in the same box < 1288733214 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it wasn't below the name < 1288733394 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolol < 1288733414 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this problem would be solved if they used voting machines right? < 1288733445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This election, we switched from lever-based voting machines to filling in a paper ballot and scanning them in < 1288733488 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scanned paper ballots are sensible. Easy counting but also verifiable < 1288733505 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION agrees
< 1288733589 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theonion.com/articles/election-day-guide,8124/ < 1288733679 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1288734021 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288734480 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Document is currently being inspected. Please allow 7-10 days. No action is required by you at this time." It's been in that state 13 days now! The liars. < 1288735346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi < 1288735351 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@128.198.97.200 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288735605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you've been rather quite all day... < 1288735676 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1288735677 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite rather. < 1288735680 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite, quite rather. < 1288735683 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you said rather quite. < 1288735684 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that too. < 1288735692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*quiet < 1288735695 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1288736134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm2glu3WLGk < 1288736134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is this by the same Tool [...] < 1288736145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only one Tool, but, uhh, that's a cover in case you can't tell :P < 1288736155 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288736415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still wants there to be a single page on which he can see all his YouTube favorites (over 1000)
< 1288736433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that you have over a thousand YouTube favourites speaks very, very deep things. < 1288736514 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My polling place is in the elementary school I used to attend... < 1288736771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Wait wait -- don't tell me -- it made you nostalgic. < 1288736803 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He recorded a video of himself voting, put it on YouTube, and favorited it. < 1288736817 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was over six hours long, so he broke it into 10 minute segments and favorited each of them. < 1288737066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I am trying to imagine the circumstances where Sgeo takes six hours to vote :P < 1288737081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT DECISION < 1288737098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WARNING: You selected a non-Republican candidate. Please note that if you submit this vote, all existing copies of Active Worlds will be destroyed. < 1288737110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me using my phone to ask various IRC channels who to vote for. < 1288737121 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Pretty sure you actually did that < 1288737145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I not correct??? < 1288737154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you are not correct. < 1288737162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Rule #1 of voting in the US: DO NOT VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN. < 1288737182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule #2 of voting in the US: FAIRLY LIKELY, DON'T VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRAT EITHER. < 1288737183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Rule #2: Accept that you are voting between "shitty" and "fucking nuts". < 1288737217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Rule #3: Don't like it, engage in armed revolution. The politicians will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. < 1288737292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION under-voted
< 1288737293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule #4: Turns out your vote means something like jack shit in New York under a fundamentally broken election system and two-party system! But don't throw away your vote by voting for who you'd actually like to see; THE REPUBLICAN MIGHT WIN < 1288737302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the SKY WOULD FALL < 1288737315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1288737322 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1288737323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we upset Sgeo < 1288737325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1288737352 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF is the combination key+touchpad movement that tells XChat "Oh, hey, go ahead, part this channel"? < 1288737532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1288737539 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq never voted in the 2008 election! < 1288737585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. < 1288737628 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288737770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq isn't denying it 'cuz it's true. < 1288737839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The US system is so broken that you actually have no sane option but to vote defensively. It is fucking nuts. < 1288737882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If I was in the US, I'd use reliable predicted results to determine what the risk of the Republicans getting in is; if it's sufficiently low, I'd vote honestly. < 1288737948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is indeed defensive voting. < 1288737969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've never heard of anyone do that; most idiots just vote Democrat no matter what because OMG REPUBLICANS. < 1288737973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In my area the Democrats need every single vote they can get to avoid the anti-tax crazies. < 1288737986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what, if everyone wasn't so chickenshit, the two party system could be broken. < 1288738001 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's worth a Republican candidate winning once or twice in the process. < 1288738008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I had to vote against 4 *different* ballot measures that would essentially bankrupt the state. < 1288738021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. That's different. < 1288738028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: < 1288738031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They said something about ballot measures on the back. I didn't see any < 1288738032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: < 1288738054 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it said it on the ballot, which makes sense, why vary the instructions? < 1288738069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And the Republicans had a decent chance of winning. Including the guy who thinks that a bike sharing program is a UN plot to take over the US. < 1288738073 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what measures? < 1288738081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course it is. < 1288738092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'd be able to determine that they could bankrupt the state < 1288738188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Amendment R, which would remove property taxes for individuals or businesses who use government-owned property for a private benefit. < 1288738199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Amendment 60, which would halve property taxes. < 1288738215 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'd vote on economic issues < 1288738217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Amendment 61, which would forbit the state government from ever taking out loans. < 1288738225 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too clueless to make informed decisions < 1288738231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." --Winston Churchill4 < 1288738254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Amendment 101, which would cut vehicle, income, and telecom taxes to an 8th of the size. < 1288738254 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1288738275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/4$// < 1288738293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't this what not having direct democracy is for? Besides administrative purposes < 1288738307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And a lot of things around here are very very underfunded because of morons who think that removing taxes just means they have more money in their pocket. < 1288738329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Anyways. If you're too uninformed to vote on something, *inform yourself*. < 1288738334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: All democracy relies on at least most of the people not being complete idiots. < 1288738341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: We live in the fucking information age. < 1288738349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: YOU CAN GET FUCKING INFORMATION. < 1288738358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Information about fucking. < 1288738365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, yes. < 1288738371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The Internet is for porn, after all. < 1288739035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1288739249 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poll: is interactive fiction esoteric? < 1288739258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in and of itself < 1288739260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ping < 1288739309 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esoteric interactive fiction! < 1288739330 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuation: is inform 7 an esoteric programming language? < 1288739350 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A slow, horrible realisation creeps over you that the Befunge program is trying to take over the world. < 1288739366 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you: smash it with a hammer? Turn to page < 1288739400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :45. Run away? Turn to page 74. Submit to your fungal overlord? Turn to page 89. < 1288739449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that is not interactive fiction. < 1288739455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: it's strange, that's for sure < 1288739461 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awww. < 1288739466 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still want to write that. < 1288739501 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: ais523 wrote an esoteric interactive fiction thing once but never finished i. < 1288739502 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it. < 1288739505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally, based on esolangs < 1288739525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I hereby hire you. < 1288739537 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I hereby hire you. < 1288739554 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Gregor, you're hired too. < 1288739566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fool! I am hiring pikhq for a reason! < 1288739569 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you're hired as well. < 1288739580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My standard rate is $5,000,000 an hour. < 1288739580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the pay? < 1288739591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: (or about £1 per week) < 1288739611 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1288739616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How much would you say a week's worth of two people working on Kitten would be worth, to you? < 1288739624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As part of the global value "how much Kitten is worth overall". < 1288739631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convert utilons to the almighty dollar. < 1288739634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... to pounds. < 1288739649 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If it's £1 per week or more, congratulations! You'll be paying yourself! < 1288739659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If it's less, WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST KITTEN < 1288739662 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Working all of 0.0004 seconds per week? That's a lot! < 1288739671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: About several quintillion Zimbabwean Dollars. < 1288739689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wow! You're making a five quadrillion times profit! < 1288739694 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You're IN THE MONEY and I don't even have to pay you. < 1288739698 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'd say it's worth about a week's worth < 1288739702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that great? < 1288739739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, such dollars aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. < 1288739749 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, the pay at Hoover Enterprises is £5 for every unit of influence gathered. < 1288739757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'd gain money by burning them and selling the ashes. < 1288739769 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Point is: You get to work on Kitten for free. How lucky are you? < 1288739867 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't hired?
< 1288739927 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, OK, you can be head of the aural warfare department. < 1288739944 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you take over the webernets. < 1288739953 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I need you to secure Finland. < 1288739977 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Kitten? some other crazy vaporware I missed? < 1288740002 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks logs
< 1288740021 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, elliott is developing it. Of course it's crazy vapourware. < 1288740167 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but I can't criticize it if I don't know what it is :p < 1288740222 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, one day it might be interesting < 1288740275 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, if he actually makes any of its crazy vapourware it'll be as awesome as sliced bread which has been sliced again. < 1288740295 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG sandwich so delicious < 1288740332 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288740341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover is grossly overestimating the vapourwareness of Kitten. < 1288740368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Kitten is possibly the least ambitious of all my projects, existing solely because stuff sucks. < 1288740404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: It's basically a Linux distribution, except probably a BSD kernel instead of Linux and without rubbish. I swear it's more interesting than that, but it's not actually meant to be hugely interesting. < 1288740430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally not Debian GNU/kFreeBSD though. < 1288740448 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If you're meant to say "hurr you're making Debian", I'm... really not. < 1288740455 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh... "Comcast has previously announced that they are running out of the RFC1918 space and that they are using real IPv4 addresses for internal network devices." < 1288740464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They use kFreeBSD and I use kNetBSD! And in every other respect we are different! LOL DUPLICATION OF EFFORT" < 1288740473 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have no idea, I'm just pointing out that your description there doesn't distinguish you from Debian GNU/kFreeBSD :P < 1288740476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's like saying Gentoo and Ubuntu are the same because they both use Linux :P < 1288740483 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, I also prefer a BSD userland. < 1288740491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And generally... non-GNU userland. < 1288740503 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you prefer a shitty outdated userland. < 1288740504 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it. < 1288740505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And I'll use the NetBSD libc, basic /sbin tools and the like. < 1288740517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK, let me get this straight: non-GNU userland = outdated by definition? < 1288740521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1288740533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Then? < 1288740540 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's clear what userland you're using; NetBSD's. < 1288740547 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That is not clear at all, actually. < 1288740558 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then I made an ASSUMPTION < 1288740570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I *might*, but it's far from certain. < 1288740597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And besides, I find it really hard to conceive of a *coreutils* being outdated. < 1288740603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Oooooh fuck. < 1288740604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeing as they haven't changed since, y'know, 1980. < 1288740628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp -a and date --iso come to mind immediately. < 1288740636 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I constantly run into unsupported stuff on Mac OS X. < 1288740672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: At the same time, tons of people use the BSD userland and have no issue with it. It *does* come down a lot to personal preference, you know. < 1288740708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: FreeBSD cp has -a, anyway. < 1288740719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could easily transplant its /bin in. < 1288740722 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Then whereTF did Mac OS X get its cp from X-D < 1288740728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Old FreeBSD < 1288740732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outstanding :P < 1288740736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(NetBSD doesn't have cp -a) < 1288740747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You do realise OS X basically became a fork in 2000? :P < 1288740758 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but they could, y'know, MERGE. < 1288740781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That would be painful and expensive :P < 1288740799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: They even have a forked GCC. < 1288740799 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially for an OS that doesn't care about developers or console users at all *shrugs* < 1288740809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One which is falling waaaaaay out of date. < 1288740855 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they are going clang+llvm anyway for GPL-FUD reasons (or whatever), so why update their gcc fork < 1288740870 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1288740874 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1288740892 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@128.198.97.200 JOIN :#esoteric < 1288740919 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1288741195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah they've abandoned gcc. < 1288741200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also stock gcc works, so. < 1288741399 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you use clang/llvm in kitten? < 1288741531 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ elliott < 1288741542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pcc is more likely. < 1288741569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And polls have begun to close. Let election night begin! < 1288741681 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: pcc seems 1/2 dead < 1288741694 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ < 1288741725 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: It's quite alive. < 1288741744 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking about starting on a kernel in that language I've been building a compiler for < 1288741752 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Charlie, they care about you! < 1288741755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: what kinda language? < 1288741755 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that I have the booting stuff done :) < 1288741757 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, slowly dying then. < 1288741762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: by what evidence? < 1288741865 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: lack of google news search results < 1288741954 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: ...are you serious? < 1288741963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: That's a retarded criterion. Absolutely positively retarded. < 1288741972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's gotta be joking < 1288741974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly sure he's joking. < 1288741976 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with both of you < 1288742054 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, look at ohloh: http://www.ohloh.net/p/pcc "Decreasing year-over-year development activity" < 1288742112 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD is dying; Netcraft confirms it. < 1288742140 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's only ~1 person who committed recently < 1288742311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: you do realise ohloh's metrics suck very often? < 1288742316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: how about looking at the *actual CVS*? < 1288742323 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I did. < 1288742350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Furthermore: You do realise that it has been continuously maintained as a single codebase since the 70s? < 1288742355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And many, many compilers are based on it? < 1288742361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point, software just begins to mature.