2010-10-01: 00:01:42 I HAVE A FIRST DRAFT READY 00:01:44 YAAAAAY 00:01:49 * Phantom_Hoover → SLEEP 00:05:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:21:23 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:22:09 -!- clochette has joined. 00:23:01 -!- clochette has quit (Client Quit). 00:30:22 back 00:30:55 left arm 00:40:39 archaeology 00:40:46 urgh 00:40:46 i like stoner rock 00:40:48 SO HORRIBLE, TO LIKE 00:46:37 Wasn't that address (192.88.99.1) the global IPv4 anycast of 6to4 gateways? 00:48:40 Yes 00:51:53 > 3 / 1.4^2 00:51:54 1.5306122448979593 00:53:39 lol 00:56:01 > 1 / 123456789 00:56:02 8.100000073710001e-9 00:56:49 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:10:12 heh, BytePusher runs at 3.93 MHz 01:10:16 that's fast! 01:12:08 cool, bytepusher uses C as an assembler XD 01:13:57 Guh? 01:17:04 Gregor: It does. 01:17:16 Gregor: It has a little header of C code that defines some stuff like jmp() and lbl(). 01:17:25 Then it has loops to automate the generation of tedious code. 01:17:31 And it all gets spat out to a .BytePusher file. 01:17:35 I'm confused by what the 4MHz number has to do with the C-as-asm statement. 01:17:39 Gregor: Nothing. 01:17:43 I was just looking at BytePusher. 01:17:45 Ah 01:19:27 it's common in minimalist riscs to have a skip-if-condition and a single unconditional jump instruction rather than conditional jumps, right? 01:20:39 Or do-if-condition 01:20:44 i wonder if one could mimic try ... catch ... finally in C 01:21:02 nooga: setjmp/longjmp 01:21:12 but syntacticaly 01:21:16 try ... fail ... give up 01:21:19 Gregor: you mean have an extra conditional in each instruction? 01:21:20 using clever macros 01:21:21 yeah that's fun 01:21:26 but means every instruction could branch 01:21:26 nooga: A few wonky macros, no problem. 01:21:28 which is sort of ~not fun~ 01:21:30 alise: ARM does 01:21:34 nooga: yes, it's been done 01:21:42 url plz 01:21:42 Gregor: hmm, does it do anything fancy? 01:21:52 nooga: JFGI 01:22:02 alise: Almost always the condition is just used on branch instructions, but ANY instruction can be conditional. 01:22:10 "try and catch in C", fourth freaking result 01:22:18 Gregor: That must fuck everything up. 01:22:34 Gregor: Also, that's a pretty CISC thing to do, isn't it? 01:22:45 MIPS is cooler anyway :P 01:22:45 alise: ARM isn't really RISC :P 01:22:51 yeah fuck ARM 01:22:55 MIPS 4eva 01:22:59 MIPS just has conditional branches. 01:23:41 Gregor: what's the point of condition flags and the like? are they faster than registers? i've forgotten 01:23:53 or is it just to avoid legislating a format for booleans :P 01:23:55 cool 01:23:56 I'm not architectury enough to answer that. 01:25:52 * alise wonders if "eq d,a,b" should leave d alone if a =/= b, or set it to zero 01:25:54 the former, I think 01:26:02 you can always zero it beforehand 01:26:50 Gregor: all these registers are so bloated compared to OISCs >_> 01:26:59 The PDP-8 only had 8 instructions, and it was CISC! :P 01:30:21 Sgeo: BTW, how much you get from test-IPv6 tests? :-) 01:38:23 Ilari, hm? 01:38:27 LD r1, r1; LD r2, r2; EQ r3, r1, r2; SNZ r3; JMP end; ... end: 01:38:31 I just found out about it from Wikipedia 01:38:34 That's an awfully long series of instructions for if (*x==*y) 01:39:54 I get 10/10 for both dual stack and v6 only tests... :-) 01:39:59 Modern top-down programming is tested rigorously at every step even before the full design has completed; unfinished components are filled in by stubs so that the program can be tested. ...So top-down programming has turned into a freaky version of bottom-up programming. Lovely! 01:40:16 Ilari: If only anyone else did so you could put it to use >:) 01:44:22 07:15:05 And dbc's ascii-art. 01:44:23 dbc's? 01:44:26 he never talks! 01:44:30 [suddenly, dbc talks] 01:44:40 07:15:32 I think there was in... not more than five years ago. 01:44:41 lawl 01:47:25 I don't talk much. 01:50:07 -!- Kordalien has joined. 01:55:41 dbc: You're so predictable, talking when someone says you're not going to talk. 01:55:52 dbc: In fact, I bet you don't say something very soon. 01:57:05 Goodnight. Bye. 01:57:07 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:00:42 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:15:01 Somebody needs to write an OISC backend for GCC. 02:15:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:21:24 -!- MB_MB has joined. 02:22:58 -!- MB_MB has left (?). 02:27:38 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:34:45 And binutils I spose .. 03:50:16 -!- augur has joined. 04:14:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:34:32 -!- lament has joined. 04:47:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:02:44 -!- sshc_ has joined. 05:05:03 -!- augur has joined. 05:05:55 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:17:26 what's wrong with this picture (hint, 4 things): 00:16 < Oleg_> I have a question. What C++ code for unicode would correspond to ANSCII value 129? 05:18:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:19:02 * Sgeo sees 3 05:19:25 Wait, n.. oh, still 05:19:27 Sgeo: which? 05:19:32 "ANSCII" 05:19:42 #1 05:19:54 was thinking the 129, but then thought it was acceptable, but then that's some extended junk, right? 05:19:56 129, "code for unicode", and Oleg 05:20:05 "C++" has nothing to do with anything 05:21:19 my 4 were: ANSCII, 129, "C++ code for unicode" twice; once for assuming C++ has any unicode support, twice for asking for a "code for unicode" 05:21:59 As far as the C++ thing goes, I just saw it as "Well, the question should fundamentally be language-independent" 05:22:01 also you shouldn't use the nick Oleg unless you're really smart 05:23:19 why not? 05:24:20 coppro: because the real Oleg is the person who owns this site http://okmij.org/ftp/ 05:25:37 that's quite impressive 05:25:45 incidentally, I think I'm insane 05:26:07 I'm considering trying to gun for a triple major and a minor 05:40:09 With those majors in some things borderline-useful? 05:40:17 Or are we talking philosophy, linguistics and psychology? 05:43:36 Gregor: Linguistics is borderline-useful. Keep in mind that you put it into application rather often. ;) 05:44:26 I guess by "borderline-useful" I mean "puts food on the table" 05:44:46 Linguistics can only do that paired with something actually useful (e.g. CS) 05:45:00 Unless you're in academics. 05:45:12 In which case it doesn't matter you could be studying basket weaving. 05:46:01 And psychology is something like 3/4ths bullshit, due to lack of knowledge. 05:46:11 Philosophy? Formal study of bullshit. 05:46:26 -!- Harpyon has joined. 05:46:30 Which makes it both useless and astoundingly fascinating at the same time. 05:47:48 -!- Harpyon has quit (Client Quit). 05:51:41 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:55:39 ALSO pikhq: Go read the Fythe spec dammit! 05:56:45 (The first bit I actually added some text to that is) 06:01:59 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:02:24 welp, haven't been here in a while 06:04:15 probably missed something interesting ... oh well (not going to read hundreds of old logs, even if it has only been like two or three months, heh) 06:07:42 okay, I'll just say it, I know it's lame to most of you, but I did port my Befunge-93 interpreter to Modula-2, and I (optionally) crammed its source into less than 80x25 (w/ example too) 06:08:14 crappy, crazy, useless but whatever ... tada! ;-) 06:10:16 -!- Harpyon has joined. 06:18:14 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 06:19:55 things I want: candies that taste like vitamin C pills but do not give indigestion 06:22:42 orange? 06:22:49 the fruit? 06:23:50 they are not the same 06:23:57 I mean like exactly the same 06:24:14 I just meant why complicate it? just eat an orange ;-) 06:25:37 because it does not taste the same 06:26:05 close enough, plus it's easily available and has vitamin C 06:26:13 and all natural 06:26:19 and probably cheaper too (hopefully) 06:27:11 a) not close enough 06:27:29 b) I don't want vitamin C. The problem is the damned pills give you indigestion if you have too many 06:27:46 then don't eat too many! 06:28:10 but I want to 06:28:13 because they are yummy 06:28:34 well your stomach doesn't, obviously, so you have to compromise 06:28:43 er, coppromise 06:29:40 * coppro should work 06:29:51 Sgeo: you're an expert at not working. help me stop 06:47:42 i think philosophy is pretty cool 06:47:45 some of it, anyway 06:47:49 not all 07:00:17 -!- tombom has joined. 07:45:31 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 07:50:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:12 -!- dbc has quit (Quit: Seeeeeya). 08:34:22 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:50:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:10:41 -!- dbc has joined. 09:25:35 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:27:32 morning ← 11:07:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 11:31:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:32:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:57:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:06:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:16:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:40:25 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 12:40:37 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:52:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:04:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:29:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:32:34 -!- Harpyon has joined. 14:00:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:00:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:01:04 There is a film coming out about Facebook. 14:01:10 This saddens me. 14:01:41 Is it about a middle aged woman who discovers the internet 14:01:46 Fortunately, I saw the trailer for it immediately before watching Inception, which erased the horror from my mind for at least a month. 14:01:46 Because that is basically facebook 14:01:53 Slereah, no, it's about the founding. 14:04:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:04:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:17:45 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 14:39:27 -!- augur has joined. 14:56:10 -!- ineiros has quit (Quit: x). 15:14:57 -!- ineiros has joined. 15:33:40 -!- sftp has joined. 15:49:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:52:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:00:21 -!- alise has joined. 16:00:27 LOL, BUT REALLY 16:01:52 21:17:26 what's wrong with this picture (hint, 4 things): 00:16 < Oleg_> I have a question. What C++ code for unicode would correspond to ANSCII value 129? 16:02:02 "code for unicode", esp. supposing unicode is a charset 16:02:04 ANSCII 16:02:10 129 is outside of ASCII 16:02:31 prolly "C++ code for [meant to be charset]" and thinking "unicode" is a charset is two things 16:03:20 An immensely annoying number of people think the ASCII is 8-bit. 16:03:30 21:46:11 Philosophy? Formal study of bullshit. 16:03:34 my philosophy-studying friend can confirm this :) 16:03:43 Phantom_Hoover: lawl "the ASCII" :) 16:03:58 22:19:55 things I want: candies that taste like vitamin C pills but do not give indigestion 16:03:58 THIS 16:04:00 The bullshit was a brown colour, and was sloppy. 16:04:07 multivitamins: stupid 16:04:07 Deposits were found on my shoe. 16:04:09 their taste: AWESOME 16:08:20 You can just chug citric acid. 16:08:23 That's fun. 16:08:37 Hmm... 16:08:57 Also, do not lol at "the ASCII". 16:09:31 The American Standard Code for I[something] Interchange? 16:09:43 Hahaha you said "The"! 16:10:01 I was waiting for someone to notice that I say that, actually. 16:10:56 Well, people on Internet tend to add or remove the word "the" indiscriminately. 16:10:59 It occurred to me one day and I haven't been able to stop since. 16:11:36 I suspect that I shall now end up talking about the TCP and the UTF-8. 16:11:50 ME GO TOO FAR 16:12:03 The transfer control "TCP" protocol. 16:12:07 ME AM PLAY GOD WITH GRAMMATICAL CORRECTION. 16:12:21 Dern, /transmissions/ control. 16:12:22 The TCP protocol for transmission control. 16:12:36 Dern, /transmission/ control (where'd that plural come from :P ) 16:13:06 If I get a Ph.D. and change my name to Iliad, I'll be Dr. I. Hird, or, backwards, Dr. I. Hird. 16:13:10 I have a new life goal. 16:13:46 Phantom_Hoover: You do realise that acronyms aren't really their expansions? 16:13:48 Why not change your last name to whatever ais' middle one is. 16:13:52 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 16:13:52 That's why RAS syndrome is a stupid complaint/. 16:13:54 *complaint. 16:13:59 "HURR HE SAID ATM MACHINE" 16:14:01 Phantom_Hoover: Ian? 16:14:06 Because Ian is a crappy name! 16:14:11 Maybe Imhotep. I would become invisible. 16:14:12 IIIRC he said it wasn't. 16:14:16 Iain? 16:14:20 It is Ian. 16:14:34 Scottish names are good atmaking the English mispronounce them. 16:14:37 *at making 16:16:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:16:57 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 16:19:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:19:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 16:19:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:00:31 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:01:53 Well, nobody likes the English. 17:03:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:03:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:05:39 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 17:05:42 Gregor, perhaps the English do. 17:05:52 The English LEAST of all. 17:05:54 Although that's strongly debatable. 17:06:00 Nobody hates the English more than the English. 17:06:04 The BNP? 17:06:59 -!- tombom has joined. 17:07:30 Although they hate a lot of the English as well... 17:08:33 In the same vein, HP Lovecraft was a dedicated Anglophile. 17:11:19 "I know that astrology isn't a science," said Gail. "Of course it isn't. It's just an arbitrary set of rules like chess or tennis or, what's that strange thing you British play?" 17:11:19 "Er, cricket? Self-loathing?" 17:11:22 -- Douglas Adams 17:13:01 (Next line: ""Parliamentary democracy. The rules just kind of got there. They don't make any kind of sense except in terms of themselves. But when you start to exercise those rules, all sorts of processes start to happen and you start to find out all sorts of stuff about people. [...]") 17:13:04 s/""/"/ 17:14:38 WHY DID DOUGLAS ADAMS HAVE TO DIE 17:14:41 IT WAS SO RUDE 17:14:47 It was. 17:15:15 Phantom_Hoover: And it left us with "...And Another Thing". 17:15:28 Written by an IRISHMAN 17:15:33 A work of fanfiction so unsatisfactory as an entry in the H2G2 trilogy, it makes me want to write a better one. 17:15:35 It's not the SAME 17:15:53 The SELF-LOATHING just ISN'T THERE 17:16:13 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it is an excellent imitation of Douglas' style. But it's ... frozen, somehow, a stereotype rather than a homage. 17:16:29 And while it's a decent book, it's a bad H2G2 book. 17:16:35 Rename the characters, republish, good book. 17:17:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:25:17 I think the only reason my singing sounded bad was because it wasn't in-sync with the music underneath 17:25:24 I think raw singing by itself should be ok 17:29:16 _NO_ 17:29:52 The tone was all wrong, the voice was annoying and the timing wasn't just desynced, it was completely wrong. 17:31:29 But those things, in and of itself, shouldn't be grating 17:32:13 what 17:32:31 They are not just grating, they are *effing* grating. 17:32:54 Sgeo: *You* *cannot* *sing* 17:33:01 It is as simple as that, my friend. 17:33:28 So when I'm bored at a bus stop, I should try to avoid vocalizing whatever song's floating through my head? 17:33:39 I cannot sing either. I realise this, and I avoid singing at all costs. 17:33:44 Sgeo, YES. 17:34:29 http://www.conservapedia.com/Obamageddon THIS WORKS EVEN BETTER WITH AN ATHEIST NON-RHOTIC ACCENT 17:34:42 So when I'm bored at a bus stop, I should try to avoid vocalizing whatever song's floating through my head? ;; oh god yes 17:35:08 Can I at least hum? 17:35:15 NO 17:35:18 ....? 17:35:44 * alise listens to your thing again juts to make sure 17:35:46 DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE ANY FORM OF TUNE WITH YOUR LUNGS 17:35:53 *just 17:35:58 * Phantom_Hoover too 17:36:12 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav ;; yeah don't hum dude :{ 17:36:15 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:36:16 O GOD I LEFT THE VOLUME TOO HIGH 17:36:21 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 17:36:22 alise, that's not humming 17:37:22 Phantom_Hoover: i need a link :{ 17:37:41 alise, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg 17:38:06 I'm actually fairly desensitised to Sgeo's voice by now. 17:38:17 I actually know someone with a more annoying one. 17:38:29 Phantom_Hoover: Postcode, weaknesses? 17:38:40 I don't know either of these things. 17:38:54 Phantom_Hoover: Is their weakness GUNS? 17:38:57 I seem to infuriate him, though, so that's one attack strategy. 17:52:59 -!- hailtothethief has joined. 17:58:11 hi hailtothethief 17:58:19 hello 18:01:00 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:01:12 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 18:01:45 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:02:02 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 18:12:08 Phantom_Hoover: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE ANY FORM OF TUNE WITH YOUR LUNGS // /me tries to figure out a way to make a tune with his lungs that isn't singing, beat-boxing or otherwise producing sound via the vocal chords, mouth, tongue, teeth and lips. 18:12:27 -!- augur has joined. 18:13:58 I guess you can just breathe in and out while using your chest as a percussive instrument. 18:36:54 Gregor: Extract your lungs, stretch them, bang as percussive instrument. 18:37:00 You may need a lung transplant first. 18:37:03 Touche! 18:59:00 alise, incidentally, if you wanted to wipe out the area in which the guy with the voice more annoying than Sgeo's in it, don't bother 18:59:03 It's not regional. 18:59:41 I was just going to wipe out him. 19:00:03 My description would be something along the lines of nasal and lisping, as well as so camp that when he walks into a room the average Kinsey rating rises by at least a point. 19:00:21 ... laaaaaaaaaaaaawl 19:00:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:00:55 :D 19:01:07 I've been saving that one for a while. 19:01:14 Did you actually post a link to said guy's voice? 19:01:40 Or are we just to take your word for it? 19:01:41 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:01:55 I'M THE ONLY GR NOW YAY 19:02:18 Gregor, I don't exactly whip out a dictaphone when talking to people. 19:02:30 ... you don't? 19:02:32 "But I do whip out my dic--" "Excuse me, sir." 19:02:51 I whip out my dick and dictaphone when talking to people. 19:02:57 As they're the same instrument. 19:03:00 OH JUST DESTROY THE SUBTLETY THANKS GREGOR 19:03:13 I've already got enough notoriety at my school for carefully spreading misinformation as to the reason for my departure from the previous one 19:03:15 's what I do. 19:03:27 Phantom_Hoover: Blew it up? 19:03:36 When you said "instrument", I thought "dick solo", which just... yeah, this channel now officially has no class. 19:03:46 I implied that it was due to the 19:03:50 Due to the -- 19:03:54 [and he was shot] 19:03:57 Rhapsody in Pink for Penis and Vagina 19:04:02 nmmjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 19:04:11 That joke was almost too stupid to be said. 19:04:17 Gregor: Organ In A Minor 19:04:19 *in 19:04:26 ... X-D 19:04:53 I implied that it was due to assault with a spoon. 19:05:01 Which is sort of true. 19:05:26 Does LaTeX have a BNF package that isn't made of suck? 19:06:38 Phantom_Hoover: Please, please elaborate on how it was sort of true. 19:06:52 Well, I did assault someone with a spoon. 19:07:01 But I didn't get kicked out immediately for it. 19:07:16 Why ... did you assault someone ... with a spoon ... 19:07:18 XD 19:07:31 THAT IS ALL I SHALL SAY ON THE MATTER 19:07:45 BAH 19:07:47 Except that he may have required stitches. 19:11:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 19:11:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:11:57 Hello everyone! 19:12:07 My battery is apparently broken! 19:12:09 Yaaaay! 19:12:50 It wasn't broken an hour ago! 19:12:52 Yaaaay! 19:14:10 FORK 19:16:00 What about it? 19:17:13 Forks. 19:18:48 What about them? 19:19:06 they eat 19:22:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:25:31 Well, that was fun. Finally heard a piece on the classical station here that I was familiar with that *wasn't* a listener request. 19:25:43 ... Because I have performed said piece. 19:27:10 (for some reason, when the station's open to requests, everyone requests things that just about everyone has heard. Find me someone who hasn't heard "Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy" and I'll show you someone who was born deaf.) 19:29:58 pikhq: Dial in and request The Black Eyed Peas' "My Humps". 19:30:01 You must. 19:30:34 alise: I doubt they'd have it. It's a classical station. 19:30:41 pikhq: I say, I say, that's a joke, son. 19:30:42 The pinnacle of all music: canyon.mid. (That thing which came with win3.1 multimedia thingies, possibly 9x and later too.) 19:30:46 However, I *could* request 4'33". 19:31:06 Request 59"59', the little-known sequel to 4'33". 19:31:16 *59'59" 19:31:26 *groan* 19:34:03 fizzie: IIRC, canyon.mid was actually pretty darn awesome :P 19:34:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIW4F285QjA 19:34:44 pikhq: Anecdote you just reminded me of: 19:34:48 PLAY IT ON AN MT-32 19:35:01 A friend of mine and I like to play "guess-that-composer" when there's something we don't recognize playing. 19:35:06 But we both suck at it, so instead we choose letters. 19:35:11 wat 19:35:15 One person gets to choose 'B', and the other person chooses two other letters. 19:35:26 If either letter is the first letter of the last name of the composer, that person wins. 19:35:33 But that's not the anecdote :P 19:36:03 The anecdote is that we were playing that game when something we couldn't identify came on. It was clearly Beethoven, but it obviously wasn't because we would have recognized it. 19:36:21 So we were debating who would have written in such a distinctively-German early Romantic style other than Beethoven. 19:36:45 One person gets to choose 'B', and the other person chooses two other letters. <-- why B specifically? 19:37:01 Finally, he took 'B', and I took 'R' and 'S'. For Ravel, which has been known to do some very weird stuff, Sibelius and Saint-Sans. 19:37:10 Vorpal: Because every famous composer is named with a 'B' 19:37:21 I joked "I guess I've got Rimsky-Korsakov too!" 19:37:37 Because it was such an absurd notion that something so distinctively early-Romantic German would be Rimsky-Korsakov. 19:37:54 Suffice it to say: Listen to Rimsky-Korsakov's third symphony some time. It is an interesting experience. I won that game :P 19:37:56 Vorpal: Because every famous composer is named with a 'B' ;; Bmozart 19:38:01 Gregor, Like Bozart and Bivaldi? 19:38:10 lol bozart 19:38:14 alise, argh you beat me to it 19:38:24 I wonder how Bmozart is pronounced 19:38:37 I think "bm" is like the pn pneumatic, except with b instead of p and m instead of n. 19:38:39 Gregor, heh 19:38:41 Like Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bizet, Borodin, Balakirev, ... 19:38:47 Bibelius, the more bookish cousin of Sibelius. 19:38:55 John Bage 19:39:06 Gregor Bichards 19:39:09 You people have absolutely no understanding of hyperbole. 19:39:13 Gregor Bitchards 19:39:18 Gregor: I do, I'm just being silly. 19:39:19 Gregor, Bayden, Bändel, Bebussy... 19:39:26 Gregor, you are completely right! 19:39:29 Bimsky-Korsakov 19:39:59 Brahman 19:40:41 Gregor, don't forget Erik Batie. 19:41:11 I'm pretty sure that the only composers the average person will name is: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart. 19:41:27 And George Bone, composer of canyon.mid. (Okay, okay, Stone.) 19:41:31 If you're *lucky*, throw Tchaikovsky in there, too. 19:41:47 pikhq, Maybe Vivaldi or Brahms. Not both though 19:41:48 pikhq: Brahms can make it sometimes. 19:42:05 Vorpal: Gregor: Pieces, maybe. Composer, hahahah no. 19:42:15 "Brahm's Lullaby" 19:42:19 Gregor, indeed 19:43:17 Still not going to hear Brahms *named*. 19:43:21 Erik Satie is wonderful. 19:43:32 alise, Batie* 19:43:42 Brik Batie 19:43:50 pikhq: *Bchaikovsky 19:44:00 Pronunciation left as an exercise to the reader. 19:44:12 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallReferencePools says Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, and then quite a list of individual works. 19:44:27 pikhq, if it comes to listening tests, people will probably recognize stuff by completely different composers than those. 19:44:27 fizzie: That's about right. 19:44:45 Vorpal: Yes, I'm just mentioning composers with name recognition. 19:44:57 Vorpal: Pieces, of course, you'll have things all over the place. 19:45:36 canyon.mid? 19:45:49 pikhq, I have done a few tests myself, and Grieg's "I bergakungens sal" (iirc "In the hall of the mountain king" in English) is quite widely recognized, though no one seems to know it's name 19:45:55 Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_Through_the_Grand_Canyon 19:46:25 Vorpal: Tchaikovsky getting a lot of recognition -- pretty sure Swan Lake, Nutcracker, and 1812 Overture will be instantly recognised (if at the right parts). 19:47:16 pikhq, hm the right parts of Carmen even more so. Hardly anyone knows who Bizet was though. 19:47:27 Quite true. 19:47:41 Also, anything that was in Looney Tunes. 19:47:47 That guy who composed what is now the Nokia tone? 19:47:57 pikhq, but for actual works I think Vivaldi's Spring (first movement) comes very near the top 19:48:11 Oh, undoubtedly. 19:48:12 pikhq, most people can even identify it as "Spring" in my experience. 19:48:28 Which was in Looney Tunes, IIRC. 19:48:28 pikhq: Anyone who has ever played Loom has Swan Lake branded onto their heads. 19:48:29 pikhq, unlike with "In the hall of the mountain king", which no one has a clue what it is named 19:48:43 Vorpal: Doesn't the mountain-kingity also exist as an example multimedia file in some Windows versions? 19:48:51 fizzie, I have no idea 19:49:11 I wonder if "In the Court of the Crimson King" is a reference to that. 19:49:39 Methylated spirits are just alcohol made more deadly. 19:49:46 This depresses me somewhat. 19:49:47 alise, it isn't exactly an un-obvious name. 19:50:11 Vorpal: No, but... King Crimson *did* basically take rock, strip away the blues, and put in a whole lot of classical into it. 19:50:12 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:50:16 So... 19:50:23 hm 19:50:26 Loom? 19:50:35 Phantom_Hoover_, googling indicates it's a video game 19:50:38 YOUR POP-CULTURAL REFERENCES BAFFLE ME 19:50:39 Phantom_Hoover_: a wonderful lucas arts adventure game 19:50:45 Phantom_Hoover_, it did the same to me 19:50:48 music is all lovely midi renditions of Swan Lake 19:50:50 (baffle that is) 19:50:50 Does anyone know when Kerim Aydin invented BF Joust? I suspect it was January 2009 19:50:56 and the gameplay is music-based 19:50:56 Vorpal: http://help.lockergnome.com/windows2/Windows-95-Sample-Media-Files--ftopict482130.html -- second post lists the win95 files, and it indeed is there, and also the Bach/Beethoven/Mozart trinity. 19:51:10 (you "weave" spells by playing little snippets of music) 19:51:18 in part 19:51:26 fizzie, .rmi? 19:51:56 impomatic, check the wiki article's history? 19:52:09 Phantom_Hoover_: it predates the wiki 19:52:11 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:52:13 impomatic: I can grep my Agora emails. 19:52:15 Vorpal: RIFF-encapsulated MIDI. 19:52:19 impomatic: Also, he goes by "G.". 19:52:28 fizzie, um... riff? 19:52:32 “An unfortunate truth is that for the vast majority of people, the only music that matters is the music that was recorded from about five years after they were born until today. Everything else is to be considered "boring old farts' music" and not worth exploring.” 19:52:37 This... Is depressing. 19:53:09 pikhq: I listen to oldish music :< 19:53:10 I don't even like most of the musical genres popular during my lifetime! 19:53:11 hm 19:53:16 !bfjoust 19:53:23 Vorpal: What .wavs and .avis are; a generic tagged-block metaformat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Interchange_File_Format 19:53:23 alise, you alone do not make up the majority of people :P 19:53:28 !show userinterps 19:53:30 fizzie, ah 19:53:32 That is not a user interpreter! 19:53:32 Use: !bfjoust 19:53:51 !userinterps 19:53:51 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 19:54:05 !pirate Hello, world! 19:54:13 um 19:54:20 Avast, world! We'll keel-haul ye! 19:54:24 !show userinterps 19:54:24 That is not a user interpreter! 19:54:26 aha 19:54:44 !pirate Was "Hello, world!" special-cased? 19:54:44 Was "Avast, world! Shiver me timbers!" special-cased? 19:54:54 !pirate It appears so. 19:54:54 It appears so. 19:55:08 wtf that is pathetic 19:55:11 !pirate who does nothing. (A tvtrope name.) 19:55:12 who does nothing. And swab the deck! (A tvtrope name. Pass the grog!) 19:55:13 impomatic: "braincorefckwars", 2008-12-18. "BF Joust" first mentioned same day. Submissions solicited and announcement of working tournament runner, 2008-12-19. 19:55:21 impomatic: All posts by G. . 19:55:27 (How does one end a sentence with "G."?) 19:55:55 alise: thanks :-) 19:56:12 Incidentally, I just ended up going on an almost circuitous path through TV Tropes! 19:56:37 impomatic: First draft of Agoran contest posted 2008-12-20, contest begins officially a few days later. 19:58:19 Thanks alise. Just adding something brief to the programming games wiki. 20:08:36 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:10:57 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 20:11:22 Phantom_Hoover_: Help! I'm running into a cyclic goal error! 20:11:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:11:35 Oh no! 20:11:50 is me joining the channel that devastating? 20:12:00 or is it just a case of context slipping away due to extenuating factors? 20:12:48 ais523: Both! 20:12:51 Actually just the latter. 20:19:02 alise, cyclic goal error with what? 20:19:25 Leaden. 20:31:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:32:43 Specifically, I can't figure out a language to write it in, which leads to me mentally constructing a brand new one, and then when I think "ok, I should write this down", I want leaden. 20:34:45 "leaden", is that a language I've heard about? 20:35:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:35:37 -!- Harpyon has joined. 20:38:15 olsner: nope 20:38:20 it is an editor you've heard about, i think 20:38:43 ah, right, I probably have 20:38:47 recognize the name at least 20:41:35 alise, how do you plan to avoid disk trashing situations with the orthogonal persistence in aliseos? 20:42:03 Vorpal: cleverly 20:42:13 alise, interesting, do you have anything specific in mind? 20:42:20 the reason Mitosis exists is so that i can get this stuff wrong so many times i must inevitably hit upon the right solution eventually :) 20:42:39 Vorpal: well, we'll all be using SSDs at least by the time it's ready. 20:42:52 and if their lifespan increases, which it should... 20:43:06 alise, heh 20:43:15 Vorpal: plus only persisting every N time, of course 20:43:16 alise, it wasn't that that I had in mind 20:43:20 every 100ms, say 20:43:23 alise, rather, something similar to swap trashing 20:43:39 alise, even SSDs are not as fast as main memory 20:43:41 i don't see the relevance to the persistence system? 20:44:03 you mean taking an awful lot of time just to persist? 20:44:13 not exactly 20:44:18 let me explain 20:45:13 presumably you will persist application state? And you have one big virtual address. The application is not aware of the ram/disk distinction 20:45:31 Everything will be persisted. More or less. I'm not even entirely sure that temporary variables won't be. 20:45:33 alise, so it can't know how large the "ram" is 20:45:45 Vorpal: There's a magical third address space that both RAM and disk map to. 20:45:57 alise, so it can't try to make a ram/speed tradeoff. Some programs do that even today 20:45:59 RAM with paging, disk with a tree structure. 20:46:21 Vorpal: Yeah, well, some. The idea of course is that the OS is sufficiently intelligent to prioritise the right bits of data. 20:47:04 Vorpal: But... I don't see why you can't get at the amount of physical RAM in the system. 20:47:13 With swapping, even modern systems make this fuzzy. 20:47:14 alise, well... yeah, but that doesn't help making a good memory/speed tradeoff really. If you select different algorithms or different algorithm parameters based on how much ram there is. Since you can't do that any longer. 20:47:20 alise, ah okay 20:47:27 Vorpal: In general, a running application won't be on disk, anyway. 20:47:33 alise, right 20:47:40 Vorpal: Because that's pretty much the worst-case scenario. 20:47:47 indeed it is 20:48:02 Indeed almost by definition it won't be; if you're accessing it and competition isn't harsh, it's going to be in RAM for a while. 20:48:32 well yes 20:49:15 Work in progress -> http://programminggames.org 20:49:22 alise, anyway there are even applications that try to adapt to cpu cache size. I know I seen that somewhere recently, but I don't remember where. 20:49:37 iirc it was pretty relevant there too 20:49:39 I want to live in the Republic of Cascadia. 20:49:47 alise, oh? 20:49:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement) 20:50:07 Vorpal: British Columbia + Oregon + Washington + sometimes northern California. 20:50:10 ah 20:50:18 The United States of Sanity 20:50:48 why the name "Cascadia"? 20:51:06 (I'm a bit impaired in browser using atm, due to being extremely close to swap trashing) 20:51:22 Hmm. Not sure. 20:52:50 Vorpal: Seems it's the name given to the general area by history. 20:52:58 Wait, maybe not. 20:52:59 Oh, whatever. 20:53:29 impomatic: ASP.NET, interesting platform choice ... 20:53:29 mhm 20:54:04 alise: it's just what comes with my webhost :-) 20:54:47 I needed a wiki that uses a flat file (SQL costs extra) and they had a one click install for Screwturn. 20:55:28 what a shitty webhost 20:55:53 impomatic: That's incredibly shitty. 20:56:13 a Xen based VPS isn't that expensive. (OpenVZ-based VPSes tends to suck, I don't know whyl) 20:56:16 why* 20:56:23 It's the cheapest I could find with unlimited sites / bandwidth 20:56:44 Bad criteria. 20:56:53 impomatic: unlimited bandwidth is a marketing lie 20:56:54 um, you don't need unlimited bw. As for sites? Again VPS wouldn't limit you in that 20:56:57 it is, literally, never true 20:57:01 alise, indeed 20:57:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:57:12 alise: Unless you've got a peering relationship. 20:57:13 Vorpal: otoh, i wouldn't recommend a vps to someone unfamiliar with unix administration. 20:57:21 hm good point 20:57:25 but there are better hosts even then. 20:57:27 In which case you have an astounding server room. :) 20:57:33 alise, I tend to go for pay for bw rate, rather than transfer per month 20:57:58 at least when I can't predict how much it will use per month 20:58:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:58:10 "An easy to understand price schedule: $4/month per account, and $1/month for every 64MiB ram. Please note; this means all plans come with $4/month worth of support." --prgmr.com 20:58:16 rather slow site than one stopping working after 20 days 20:58:21 So customer-friendly! 20:58:36 Vorpal: the nice thing with a lot of VPS hosters is that they have no hard bandwidth limits. 20:58:51 instead just slapping you hard when you get slashdotted twice in a month :) 20:58:55 alise, indeed. Strangely enough dedi and colo tends to have more stringent limits 21:00:23 also fuck g++, it is so slow (sure point to clang, but only post 2.7, and this project isn't large enough that building last llvm and clang trunk and then using that would be faster, those are C++ themselves so...) 21:00:45 Vorpal: C++ is pretty inherently slow. 21:00:47 clang++ 2.7 compiles quite a bit :p 21:01:01 Do you realise how *much* you have to parse per file that uses the STL? 21:01:03 pikhq, that too 21:01:13 pikhq, yes I checked 21:01:21 tends of MB iirc 21:01:23 tens* 21:02:42 and how fun, after compiling with -O0 -g it no longer segfaults.... And with -O1 -g it is pretty useless, just lots of value optimized out 21:07:19 yeah gcc's optimisation is pretty buggy 21:07:22 in general 21:07:42 alise, hard to know who is to blame here 21:08:17 alise, this program is one I expect to have problems with anything but 32-bit x86 linux in general. It has a history of that 21:08:32 and even then, not the most stable one 21:09:35 still, if -O1 ever breaks and -O0 doesn't... it should only happen on *really* fucked up code 21:10:08 alise, could very well be in this case. Half the comments and function names are in German though, so a bit hard to know what is going on in general 21:10:41 alise, also extremely helpful parameter names: 21:10:43 0x000000000061c5ba in display_fb_internal (xp=, yp=, w=, h=1, color=, 21:10:43 dirty=, cL=0, cR=704, cT=0, cB=560) 21:11:08 i probably wouldn't change that tbh 21:11:14 xp/yp are obviously coordinate-related 21:11:17 yes 21:11:20 w and h are common names for width and height 21:11:23 the local variable lp though? 21:11:30 dirty is probably some flag or something 21:11:31 it crashes on something involving that 21:11:33 Vorpal: err 21:11:35 0x000000000061c5ba in display_fb_internal (xp=, yp=, w=, h=1, color=, 21:11:35 dirty=, cL=0, cR=704, cT=0, cB=560) 21:11:37 is all i saw 21:11:50 alise, yes indeed, but there is a local variable in addition 21:11:53 ah 21:12:01 alise, and it is optimised out 21:12:49 lets see if this recompile helps (turned of -DNDEBUG which was hidden deep in a makefile) 21:12:59 might help catch something in advance of the issue 21:13:18 aargh, now it segfaults there with -O0 too! 21:13:29 Vorpal: that probably means there's actually a bug 21:13:34 wait, "$1 = " 21:13:36 that makes no sense 21:13:40 I'm at -O0 21:13:50 * Vorpal goes looking at the makefile machinery 21:13:56 I've seen all sorts of craziness in debug output 21:14:02 gdb seems to struggle when there's a lot of data on the stack 21:14:32 ais523: Bah, {{deletedpage}} is a perfectly good salt, it saved you work :P 21:14:49 alise: it's not salting unless the page is actually protected 21:14:52 it's just bluffing 21:14:57 makefile has basically this: "if DEBUG < 2 && !NDEBUG, add -O1" 21:15:00 that must be buggy 21:15:35 ais523, what are you talking about? 21:15:42 Vorpal: the wiki 21:15:52 ais523: true, I was just thinking that it'd either be protected or deleted very soon, so it either helps someone know it should be deleted or saves them a post-protection step 21:15:54 ais523, yes but what specifically are you referring to on it 21:16:03 Vorpal: see recent changes. 21:16:06 alise: note that spambots won't even /read/ a message saying that a page can't be edited... 21:16:17 but I see what you mean, you're saving me having to write {{deletedpage}} myself 21:16:27 I suppose I care more about instantaneous correctness of admin templates than you do 21:16:55 alise, what did the deleted page contain? 21:16:57 ais523: well, it's you we're talking about, admin actions are as instantaneous as it gets 21:16:58 Vorpal: spam. 21:17:02 alise, ah 21:17:16 alise: I'm not always online 21:17:25 ais523: maybe we need {{deletedpage}} to only show if the page is protected, somehow :) 21:17:47 but then you could just put it on every page 21:18:10 ofc, deletedpage is doubly deprecated nowadays on Wikipedia, which has moved on many versions since 21:18:18 in recent MediaWiki, you can just protect a page even if it doesn't exist 21:18:44 ofc, deletedpage is doubly deprecated nowadays on Wikipedia, which has moved on many versions since <-- doubly? 21:19:05 Vorpal: cascading protection works better than {{deletedpage}}, but less well than doing it properly 21:19:05 ais523, hm are we running outdated mediawiki? 21:19:11 yes 21:19:19 hm 21:19:21 we were running /really/ outdated mediawiki before last time graue was persuaded to upgrade 21:19:28 and I think he only did it for compatibility with a better spam filter 21:19:33 hah 21:19:37 we're running march 2007 mediawiki, i think 21:19:38 but what about bugs? 21:19:41 unless the main page is out of date 21:19:49 Vorpal: there aren't any serious bugs as far as we can tell 21:19:50 it works... 21:19:51 alise: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Version 21:19:53 AAAARGH 21:20:05 it still doesn't crash with -O0 now when I fixed the makefile bug 21:20:15 "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" is such an awesome name. 21:20:32 I bet he drove the implementation of Unicode support :P 21:20:51 "You want me to call myself Aevar Arnfjoerth Bjarmason?! BAH" 21:21:09 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:21:10 aren't all the special characters there in Latin-1? 21:21:40 -!- nooga has joined. 21:21:52 ais523: Are you sure eth is? 21:22:05 that's the only one I'm not sure about 21:22:21 Pretty sure it isn't. 21:22:29 UnicodeU+00D0U+00F0Inherited from the older ISO 8859-1 standard 21:22:34 U+00F0 21:22:35 it's just in range 21:22:41 ais523: but it isn't in latin-1 21:22:44 afaict 21:22:46 yes it is 21:22:50 latin 1 = ISO 8859-1 21:22:58 oh :P 21:23:11 i never realised 21:23:13 "ISO/IEC 8859-1:1998, Information technology — 8-bit single-byte coded graphic character sets — Part 1: Latin alphabet No. 1, is part of the ISO/IEC 8859 series of ASCII-based standard character encodings, first edition published in 1987. It is informally referred to as Latin-1." 21:23:20 how did you not realise that? 21:23:34 did you assume there were two common 8-bit encodings around that were almost identical? 21:23:41 which one did you assume matched the bottom 0xFF of Unicode? 21:24:48 heh 21:25:32 (I suppose there's Windows-1252, but everyone vaguely knows that one's nonstandard because Microsoft invented it) 21:26:31 hmm, according to Wikipedia, HTML 5 requires documents that claim to be Latin-1 to be parsed as Windows-1252 21:26:40 wow, it's taking bug-compatibility seriously... 21:32:49 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:32:56 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:33:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 21:35:01 ais523: like half of the html5 spec is an anal pseudocode specification of how to parse and handle anything that has a single < in it, or even doesn't 21:35:10 alise: reverse-engineered from IE 21:35:25 so in fact HTML5 also specifies... every byte string :) 21:35:44 ais523: HTML5 specifies, essentially, how to handle retarded HTML. 21:36:44 On the one hand, I feel we should just ban retarded HTML. On the other, I'm at least glad that they're actually *specifying* it rather than leaving browser makers to try and reverse engineer the bullshit. 21:36:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:38:01 things i am learning today: i am terrible at finding bugs in other people's code 21:38:13 "On the one hand, I feel we should just ban retarded HTML." ;; XHTML tried that, it didn't work :) 21:40:57 hmm, it seems someone reimplemented INTERCAL for Windows Phone 7 21:41:06 this is scary, why can't i figure this out 21:41:09 alise: Yeah; sadly, people are retards. 21:41:18 -!- Slereah has joined. 21:41:32 they only distributed a binary, but it's .NET so presumably decompilable 21:42:20 for some definition of decompilable 21:42:42 yep 21:42:57 strangely enough, it was released on Twitter 21:43:16 http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames/status/22546729564 21:43:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:43:56 I'm not sure what this says about the future of humanity... 21:44:24 WE'RE DOOMED! DOOMED! 21:44:51 It's just a merge sort, surely I can find a bug in a merge sort... 21:44:55 * ais523 vaguely wonders why it's asking perms to do things like dial phone numbers and check for locations 21:45:34 ais523: it's probably a spam virus 21:45:39 the binary's only 24K 21:45:43 -!- cal153 has quit. 21:45:46 so either .NET is very concise, or it's a hoax 21:46:02 i blame it being java and sorting in-place 21:46:16 http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames 21:46:19 does not look like spam to me at all 21:46:27 may simply be crap 21:46:38 ais523: .xap is a zip 21:46:41 alise: I know 21:46:44 I unzipped it 21:46:59 the .dll is the only thing there that looks plausible to contain the code 21:47:20 based on esolang wiki experience, if ais523 isn't sure what something is, it is probably clearly spam >:) 21:47:29 oerjan: I'm installing a .NET disassembler atm 21:49:27 ais523: i find that most of the slightly doubtful cases of esolang wiki spam are easily resolved by googling part of the text. there is usually enough similar spam to make it obvious. 21:49:43 ais523: remind me never to go into a software maintenance job 21:50:04 namespace INTERCAL { interface private auto ansi abstract IIntercalStatement { public virtual hidebysig newslot abstract instance default void Do (class INTERCAL.IntercalProgram program) cil managed; }} 21:50:05 I'm helping a friend-of-a-friend with their mergesort homework and stunningly cannot find the error 21:50:14 well, that certainly looks enterprisey 21:50:33 although I suspect the disassembler's put in the defaults for every possible keyword .NET supports 21:51:11 let me try to find the actual /code/... 21:52:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:52:12 namespace INTERCAL { interface private auto ansi abstract IIntercalStatement { public virtual hidebysig newslot abstract instance default void Do (class INTERCAL.IntercalProgram program) cil managed; }} <-- wat 21:52:23 who is doing .NET with intercal? 21:52:33 aha, it's "genuine" but implements only a subset 21:52:46 to be precise, array dimension, assign literal, text output, end program 21:52:53 so it'll run a hello world correctly, but nothing more complicated 21:53:02 Vorpal: http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames/status/22546729564 21:53:15 hm 21:53:57 hm 21:54:10 ais523, where is the code? 21:54:17 there isn't, I disassembled the binary 21:54:22 ais523, so closed source? 21:54:29 yep 21:54:35 who the fuck would make a closed source intercal implementation 21:54:43 it was possibly by mistake 21:54:44 it's so.... pointless 21:54:57 it's Windows dev, after all, people are used to releasing binaries rather than source there 21:55:17 also, perhaps they didn't want people to figure out that it wasn't a full impl 21:55:45 I also can't find anything that resembles a parser there, but the disassembler did segfault... 21:56:20 heh 21:56:50 just saying it is an early version would be enough? 21:57:53 well, most early versions haven't had all the commands implemented 21:58:10 but I don't see how you can get away with calling it INTERCAL with such a small subset 21:58:20 perhaps he was counting on his audience not being able to test anything but hello-worlds 21:58:41 heh 22:00:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:01:17 I'm helping a friend-of-a-friend with their mergesort homework and stunningly cannot find the error <-- is it buggy though? 22:01:56 Vorpal: yes 22:02:09 it's also java and mutates in-place, so my brain has segfaulted from the start 22:02:10 alise, in what way? out of bounds access? mis-sort? 22:02:13 ah 22:02:14 Vorpal: mis-sort 22:02:17 hm 22:02:21 it seems to sort things properly but then mysteriously merges them wrong 22:02:33 alise, could be off by one error maybe? Or mixing up something like < and =< 22:02:47 i don't think so, but the indexing is a bit screwy 22:02:49 C:\Users\Ian\documents\visual studio 2010\Projects\INTERCAL\INTERCAL\INTERCAL\obj\Windows Phone\Release\INTERCAL.pdb 22:02:58 it's always fun when that happens 22:03:02 also it uses Float.MAX_VALUE to indicate end of array in some way which is just confusing 22:03:11 ais523, when what happens? 22:03:16 ais523: strings is a crazy program :) 22:03:18 funnier is gprolog, which lets you get the list of all strings used in the program via reflection 22:03:28 and it contains the path that was used to compile it, too 22:03:59 -!- augur has joined. 22:04:07 strings proves it's not a full implementation, pretty much 22:04:07 ais523: I always thought strings extracted, like, actual strings using the actual executable format. 22:04:08 ais523, hm in erlang you can call :module_info/1, it tends to contain path of source file for the standard distribution. 22:04:16 ais523: HOW WRONG I WAS 22:04:25 which is iirc some rather screwy nfs-looking path 22:04:31 it lists IntercalStatement_{AssignVariable,AssignArray,DefineArray,ReadOut,GiveUp} 22:04:46 so either Ian changed his naming scheme halfway through the program, or only implemented five commands 22:04:58 alise: strangely, I guessed/knew what it did right from the start 22:05:04 alise, anyway, for any language that does array indexing in a way similar to C, and the function is operating on arrays: suspect off by one errors 22:05:21 ais523: maybe he just IntercalStatement_GaveUp 22:05:24 I find that off by one errors is by far the most common bug in C code that I written 22:05:28 now oerjan is after me! 22:05:33 * alise runs for the border 22:05:41 Vorpal: yeah but sh'e 22:05:45 *she's tweaked the indices tons 22:05:48 to no effect 22:05:57 alise, there aren't any borders to run to. 22:05:59 off by one errors are awful, though :) 22:06:05 Phantom_Hoover: I'M ESCAPING TO #UBUNTU 22:06:12 You can't find anybody in THAT haystack! 22:06:14 alise, yeah especially when you have multiple ones 22:06:28 alise, then tweaking may give "seemingly" inconsistent results 22:06:33 yeah 22:06:36 * oerjan lifts the border so alise trips over it 22:06:39 alise, hm... single step the code in the merging step? 22:06:43 alise, if java has such 22:06:45 i hate debugging :( 22:06:52 Vorpal: it probably does, but i'm way too lazy to go in-depth like that 22:07:03 alise, gdb is actually pretty good. No clue what you use for java though 22:07:11 I think I like debugging more than writing code in the first place :/ 22:07:13 i've just recommended she translate some pseudocode to java and forget the old version ever existed 22:07:19 Sgeo: that is bad bad bad. 22:07:41 alise, Unless it is a segfault, or not related to arrays, I tend to debug with valgrind first for C code, and only then with gdb 22:07:48 that tends to help 22:08:15 When using or writing a GC, valgrind is hyper-useless. 22:08:16 alise, well, it'll give him a head start in the soulless maintenance drudge that is professional coding. 22:08:19 Whereas gdb is just useless. 22:08:25 Phantom_Hoover: HOORAY 22:08:39 Well, *someone* has to do it. 22:08:40 Phantom_Hoover: also: HA your opinions have completely transformed into mine 22:08:42 assimilation successful 22:08:52 But I knew that ages ago... 22:09:11 You know, I've always liked being in a niche 22:09:17 Maybe I should be a researcher of some sort 22:09:30 WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. 22:09:45 When using or writing a GC, valgrind is hyper-useless. <-- yes 22:09:52 Sgeo: If you like fixing more than creating... research probably isn't for you. 22:10:03 Gregor, well not exactly 22:10:08 Sgeo, researching awful code 22:10:10 Gregor, it can still find "use of undefined value" 22:10:17 Gregor, just not any memory leaks 22:10:22 I can see a fruitful career in psychology for you. 22:10:59 WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. <-- err? Is this a pun on "ehird"? 22:11:26 "Subject A's code clearly shows psychopathic tendencies, as demonstrated by his use of GNU brace style and his UI's persistent admonitions for users to 'end their worthless lives'." 22:11:49 heh 22:11:59 Hrm. Apparently HTML5 does not actually say that ISO-8859-1 == Windows-1252 for the purposes of HTML5. 22:12:00 Phantom_Hoover, that could be dangerous to the researcher 22:12:10 Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a slightly customized version of Emacs 22:12:14 * Sgeo tends to use GNU brace style :/ 22:12:19 why? 22:12:22 what 22:12:32 I thought GNU brace style was the only brace style with no advocates at al 22:12:34 *all 22:12:39 ais523, um, what about RMS? 22:12:41 Sort of acquired that style from the LSL Hello World 22:12:41 It instead says that clients should treat ISO-8859-1 as Windows-1252 for compatibility, but that any change of semantics resulting from this interpretation is a parse error. 22:12:43 >.> 22:12:43 Experiment log 1/10/10: Received code sample from Subject B. 22:12:51 ais523, he presumably advocates it? 22:13:00 he advocates free software, not brace styles 22:13:01 Attempted to run; blacked out. 22:13:12 ais523, I tend to use a style similar to the linux kernel brace style 22:13:23 Oh wait, I don't 22:13:30 *phew* 22:13:31 I misread the code sample on Wikipedia 22:13:44 Upon recovery, blood was smeared upon the desk in vaguely familiar patterns. 22:13:46 And so HTML5 is merely resorting to defined behavior where, say, C, would allow the compiler to launch ze missiles. 22:13:53 Blood tests confirmed blood as own. 22:14:01 WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. <-- err? Is this a pun on "ehird"? ;; ITT: Borg 22:14:16 Allman style 22:14:16 "Subject A's code clearly shows psychopathic tendencies, as demonstrated by his use of GNU brace style and his UI's persistent admonitions for users to 'end their worthless lives'." 22:14:19 "Primarily the brace style." 22:14:19 alise, a combination of those obviously :P 22:14:26 alise, the borg pun was obvious 22:14:30 Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a slightly customized version of Emacs ;; encourage-user-suicide-mode 22:14:30 the hird one, not so much 22:14:33 Experiment log 2/10/10: tried analysing code in debugger. 22:15:07 Blacked out again. Core file left in working directory. Will investigate later. 22:15:41 Looking through core — MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE 22:15:46 RUN YOU FOOLS RUN 22:15:57 OH, THAT RHYMED. 22:16:05 Well, my days are timed. 22:16:06 Phantom_Hoover, this is starting to look like a parody of that wiki pretending to be a secret govt thingy. Forgot the name of it 22:16:14 The SCP Foundation? 22:16:21 ah yes that 22:16:33 That was the general style I was aiming at. 22:16:34 <3 the SCP Foundation 22:16:36 Phantom_Hoover, ah 22:16:39 Sgeo, we know 22:17:03 Contents of core file 011010.core: [DATA EXPUNGED] 22:17:52 Image of blood patterns created after execution: [IMAGE EXPUNGED] 22:18:13 hah 22:19:23 Ran mival.exe. Saw structures of great #####, with crawling, demonic #######s whose noises deafened me. I became as if it. [Note: This file was found on Dr. A. Britki's computer after incident 4093-1A9.] 22:19:28 As if it! 22:19:39 hm trying to do binary search on -O0 plus a handful of flags 22:19:43 to find out what is failing 22:19:51 now time to test -O0 -fmerge-constants 22:19:55 no way that should fail 22:20:15 if it does, this is a sad day for computing 22:21:06 Attempted to compile ravana.c. Compiler failed with error ####. Reran with flag -####. My god, it's full of ####. 22:21:18 Phantom_Hoover, :P 22:21:21 GCC actually has a -### flag 22:21:25 indeed 22:21:34 I'm not entirely sure where that naming comes from 22:21:34 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:21:38 ais523, ah, but does it have a -#### flag 22:21:43 No? 22:21:45 I don't think so 22:21:49 btw it failed with -O0 -fmerge-constants -fdce -fdse, it works with -O0 22:21:51 That's because it's the Forbidden Flag. 22:21:52 so um 22:22:27 It's one of the reasons that no compilers are fully C99 compliant. 22:22:32 Challenge: Watch every single Sesame Street episode ever. Note: This is almost 29 years worth of video, without breaks or sleep. 22:22:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:22:46 Wait. 22:22:47 No it isn't. 22:22:50 60 hours != 1 hour! 22:22:55 It's actually just almost half a year. 22:22:59 Which is still pretty damn impressive. 22:23:16 alise, try to watch sazae-san 22:23:35 ouch 22:23:39 sebbu: i think i'll pass :D 22:23:42 got at least one episode per week, since 1970 i think 22:23:45 what about watching them all simultaneously 22:23:50 episodes: 6345+ 22:23:53 Vorpal: are any of the optimisations there unsafe? 22:23:54 emphasis on the +... 22:24:01 -fmerge-constants is safe in theory, but often abused in practice 22:24:09 60 hours != 1 hour! <-- breaking news: Scientists recently discovered that 60 hours was not the same as one hour, as previously thought. This has thus discredited the theory of the 61 hour cyclic modulo universe. 22:24:22 ais523: I read a comment on reddit saying that the "Play All" option on an Aqua Teen Hunger Force DVD literally divided the screen into the number of episodes and played them all simultaneously./ 22:24:27 s/\/$// 22:24:34 alise: that's hilarious 22:24:40 although, presumably it would only be 4 or so 22:24:41 ais523, I don't know 22:25:41 ais523, and dce and dse should both be same, dead code and dead subexpression iirc (don't have man page up atm) 22:25:45 The -#### flag is to C compilers as the Bôites Diabolique is to synthesisers, really. 22:25:57 Phantom_Hoover, "Bôites Diabolique"? 22:26:05 ARGH 22:26:11 it segfauls 22:26:14 segfaults* 22:26:25 Vorpal: The forbidden notes. 22:26:29 * Vorpal remove -fmerge-constant just to ensure nothing else changed so that sill doesn't work 22:26:33 Gregor, you're a pianist. Explain to Vorpal 22:26:45 alise, oh those 22:26:50 Wow, two Look Around You references in a day. That has to be, like, a record. 22:26:51 alise, saw some joke about them once 22:27:01 on youtube iirc 22:27:05 Hey now little mouse / ... 22:27:08 THREE! 22:27:13 Two from the same episode at that. 22:27:21 *Boîte Diabolique 22:27:28 Bloody French. 22:27:36 which was the first reference? 22:27:44 Vorpal: It's a lot of fun. You should learn to play it on the pan flute. 22:27:47 Phantom_Hoover: Good enough? 22:28:01 Sgeo, you could always research the applications of the Besselheim Plate to debugging. 22:28:05 Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg#t=5m42s 22:28:10 Vorpal: Probably this. 22:28:11 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:28:14 5:42 timestamp is relevant. 22:28:18 Phantom_Hoover: Ohwait, I thought you were referring to a different Diabolique ... 22:28:25 Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg#t=5m42s 22:28:27 alise, you forgot youtube-dl 22:28:33 Vorpal: Which is why I mentioned the timestamp. 22:28:37 right 22:28:52 Gregor, it's the locked box at the upper end of a piano containing the 19 forbidden notes. 22:29:07 Is it 19? 22:29:13 It doesn't look like that many to me. 22:29:36 * alise listens to Little Mouse 22:29:48 alise, the Boîte Diabolique defies your uneducated counting. 22:30:05 You obviously haven't studied Look Around You — Maths in enough detail. 22:30:21 Hey now little mouse! / I hope we understand one another. 22:30:24 Truly inspirational lyrics. 22:30:34 * Phantom_Hoover is still trying to work out how to get one of his science teachers to play Look Around You in a lesson. 22:30:45 And then see how long it takes them to figure it out. 22:30:50 Phantom_Hoover: A few friends of mine have had it played to them without even asking. 22:30:57 Of course, that was by cool teachers. 22:31:03 Apparently most students Did Not Get The Joke. 22:31:16 Shh! 22:31:19 I'm plotting! 22:32:06 "'Cause I like you my friend, I respect you my friend, I'll encourage you my friend, through and throoouuugh..." 22:32:46 Vorpal: hird is vaguely similar to borg in syllable structure. also it's an archaic military collective noun in norwegian. 22:33:08 pikhq, what's your opinion on lab pistol regulation? 22:33:15 It's also part of the recursive expansion of Hurd. 22:33:31 oerjan, hm 22:33:50 oerjan: Bokmål and Nynorsk; discuss. 22:33:51 I mean, it carries certain dangers, but is necessary for safe disposal of equipment and sulphagne test subjects. 22:34:31 I *really* need to get some embossing tape and go nuts with it. 22:35:50 oerjan has had a sudden epileptic fit. 22:36:37 Vorpal: *59 hour 22:37:29 what 22:37:32 oerjan: BAH 22:37:35 now it segfaults at -O0 too 22:37:36 um 22:38:07 okay it segfaults at -O0 but not -O0 -g 22:38:09 that's insane 22:38:11 ais523, ^ 22:38:30 Vorpal: try messing about with -fomit-frame-pointer 22:38:36 as debug info can alter that sometimes 22:38:55 ais523, but neither -O0 nor -O0 -g has that on? 22:39:12 are you sure? 22:39:22 it may be being turned on elsewhere in the makefile 22:39:28 you implied that the makefile was insane 22:39:34 hm 22:39:42 ais523, I checked it for such insaneness in this case 22:40:10 ais523, also hm, I really need some optimisation since this program really benefits from it 22:40:28 wait hm, the stuff affecting -g would affect -DNDEBUG 22:40:32 even while debugging? 22:40:35 so maybe 22:40:42 ais523, well no, but for it to be usable! 22:40:46 Vorpal: check for side-effects in asserts 22:40:50 it's so easy to do that by mistake 22:40:54 also it's vaguely similar to "herd" (maybe cognates?) 22:40:55 I did it a couple of weeks ago, but noticed 22:40:58 ais523, indeed, but half the stuff is written in German 22:41:03 and it is fairly large 22:41:17 alise: kva med nynorsk? 22:42:08 oerjan: I thought Bokmål/Nynorsk was a pretty heated topic in Norway and I wanted the lowdown from someone at least vaguely sane. 22:42:22 Unless that was a joke and was in Nynorsk or something, which is likely. 22:42:22 ais523, while it compiles at -O0 I can listen to about 2 wesnoth songs, giving it about 7 minutes per compile 22:42:25 so sigh 22:42:28 alise: it's not a heated topic among the vaguely sane, i should think 22:42:44 oerjan: what's the vaguely sane's obvious-answer? 22:42:48 Vorpal: I like your measurement of duration 22:42:49 well it wasn't much of a joke 22:43:16 ais523: Just be happy he doesn't measure in symphonies. 22:43:17 I'm actually writing a Wesnoth campaign for fun atm 22:43:37 "It took about 3 milisymphonies." 22:43:46 *millisymphonies 22:45:00 well there are a number of people who want to remove the obligatory teaching of the alternative language (mostly nynorsk) in school, and think it's sort of useless at least as a school subject 22:45:40 are the languages different enough that children need to be taught them both to understand them both? 22:46:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:46:23 ais523: As far as I'm aware: not really. 22:46:26 not really. well some word choices can be different. but in norway you have to learn to understand different dialects anyhow. 22:46:45 oerjan: so bokmal is what everyone uses? 22:46:50 I would ask whether they're more or less similar than English and Scottish, but you probably don't know Scottish 22:46:52 (excuse my not using the correct letter) 22:47:00 ais523: Bokmål & Nynorsk are essentially two different percieved normative standards of Scandinavian. :) 22:47:04 ais523: Scottish is just a dialect of English, unless you mean Scots... 22:47:05 otoh the really weird word choices are gradually dying out, i think. 22:47:17 Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Firefox 22:47:22 alise: not everyone, but 90% or so. 22:47:25 alise: the language "Auld Lang Syne" is written in 22:47:33 ais523: scots 22:47:34 ais523: That's Scots. 22:47:36 ah, ok 22:47:40 When I click a tab, I do NOT mean to close it 22:47:47 it's pretty close to English, but some of the words are different, and some of the grammar 22:48:12 ais523: mutually intelligible, is the word 22:48:15 there is _one_ whole county which is nynorsk, the rest are either bokmål or split by municipality (which are mostly bokmål) 22:48:17 pikhq: what's that almost-English language? 22:48:19 that i mentioned once 22:48:21 -!- nooga has joined. 22:48:24 and you said it wouldn't make learning it harder? 22:48:32 alise: West Frysian? 22:48:36 oerjan: that sounds confusing :) 22:48:42 pikhq: yep 22:48:44 alise: The one that is essentially Middle English without the Latin? 22:48:51 hmm 22:48:52 maybe 22:48:55 i recall it being more similar 22:48:58 ais523: Scots has more to do with Middle English than Modern English, BTW. 22:49:12 also what's that thing explaining atoms written in english without germanic stuff or something like that? 22:49:17 i've forgotten the name 22:49:18 Middle English is somewhat harder to read than Scots 22:49:22 although still possible, more or less 22:49:30 alise: Middle English is very very close to English. 22:49:35 it uses a leading y for past participles, which is really confusing if you don't know German 22:49:47 ais523: Yeah, that's because Scots has followed a few of the orthographic changes in English. 22:49:49 pikhq: yes, but the West Frysian Lord's Prayer isn't very intelligible to me 22:49:55 but it probably is that 22:50:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language#Sample_Text 22:50:12 alise: Yes, that's because of the mostly-Germanic vocabulary. 22:50:23 Vorpal: I like your measurement of duration <-- mhm 22:50:34 also what's that thing explaining atoms written in english without germanic stuff or something like that? 22:50:34 i've forgotten the name 22:51:17 ais523, but I ran out of wesnoth songs now. I would have to start repeating them 22:51:23 brb 22:51:24 so I guess I need to move to something else 22:51:35 oh, I often set them on a loop for an entire day or so 22:51:43 ais523, I couldn't stand that :P 22:54:06 Also, Scots is in the midst of language attrition, and hence is starting to gain a lot of features of Standard English... 22:54:26 alise: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c7cbaff 22:54:35 WHY MUST ALL CORDS IN MY POSSESSION BREAK? 22:55:58 -!- cpressey has joined. 22:56:04 cpressey, hi! 22:56:36 So I had this dream where I was evaluating a homebrew OS that was based on FreeDOS or something 22:56:45 -!- Harpyon has joined. 22:57:13 And it had something in it that emulated another OS, like a Commodore 64 or something (I know that's not an OS but this was a dream, right?) 22:57:31 cpressey, had it been coded by a shoe with multiple personality disorder? 22:57:38 cpressey, heh 22:57:45 And when you quit the OS (again, this was a dream), it popped up a message like those old shareware nag boxes 22:58:05 haha 22:58:07 And part of this message was written by alise 22:58:33 And it was encouraging us to consider what it would be like if operating systems could emulate each other through successive fractal refinement of their semantics 22:58:57 That's all 22:59:34 Well, other than after reading that, in the dream, it was clear this was some open-source project that alise contributed to, and that it worked something like that, but in an unrefined way 22:59:48 you had a dream that was internally consistent? 22:59:53 it's rare for mine to be like that 22:59:57 but while asleep, I don't notice the inconsistencies 23:00:21 ais523: well, parts of it were. 23:00:28 either that, or I notice one which is comparatively minor compared to all the rest 23:00:30 mine do tend to be a mix 23:00:37 and that instantly causes me to realise I'm asleep, and wake up 23:00:54 I should really keep a set of maps near my bed, the most common side-effect is that I completely lose track of local geography 23:01:52 And it was encouraging us to consider what it would be like if operating systems could emulate each other through successive fractal refinement of their semantics <-- wow, the mind boggles 23:02:29 Oh yeah, one more detail: this OS was called "Ancestor" 23:02:31 ais523, heh... 23:02:40 hey, did Wikipedia just go down? 23:02:44 cpressey, hey this would make a good sci fi story 23:03:13 ais523, works for me, but slow 23:03:13 hmm, working again now 23:03:14 I didn't notice. 23:03:58 cpressey, how can one refine semantics with fractional dimension? 23:05:00 Phantom_Hoover: as Vorpal said, the mind boggles. 23:05:21 Does fractional dimensions actually imply self-similartiy 23:05:26 *similarity? 23:06:19 Phantom_Hoover: almost certainly not 23:06:22 reminds me of some thoughts I was having on data types shorter than a bit 23:07:25 cpressey, "Ancestor" is a good name for an OS. the "successive fractal refinement" sounds like a perfect technobabel to introduce AI. Just two things left: decide if the AI is good or bad (no one writes stories about AIs that are somewhere in between those extremes), and actually write the story 23:07:50 you should easily be able to get a fractal dimension from a splitting up in which you make every part _different_ in a recursive but non-repeating way, i think 23:08:21 * Phantom_Hoover tries to think what that could be. 23:08:55 say you split up as a triangle on the top, then as a square in one part, a pentagon in another, etc. etc... 23:09:11 i think that should work 23:10:27 oerjan: it seems to me i've seen or thought of that before (possibly as a logo program) 23:10:47 but not from the angle of "hey this is a fractal but isn't self-similar" 23:10:54 here, here's a possible encoding for a trit that contains exactly one trit of data: 0: 01 preceded by any even number of 0; 1: 10 preceded by any even number of 0; 2: 11 preceded by any even number of 0 23:11:10 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:11:17 because there are multiple possible encodings for each value, you can use those as part of representing another value 23:11:47 ais523, what? 23:11:52 e.g. you can combine it with an encoding for a quint: 0 = 00, 1 = 01, 2 = 10, 3 = 11, 4 = use secondary encoding for previous trit 23:12:14 ais523, isn't a trit just like base 3 iirc? 23:12:18 and then the trit plus the quint together fit into 4 bits nicely, with a bit left over (which is managed using the tertiary encoding for the trit) 23:12:25 Vorpal: yes, but this is representing a trit using bits 23:12:38 now, the crazy part that alise will love: remove the first bit from that encoding of a trit 23:12:46 you now have something that equals one trit minus one bit 23:12:56 which is less than a bit of data 23:13:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:13:15 (you have two possible values, 0 and 1; but they may inject more data into other parts of the program, depending on the context) 23:13:24 ais523, ah 23:13:32 so, say, you can add an extra bit and an extra quint, and /still/ fit it into four bits 23:13:40 what 23:13:45 which you couldn't do if you started with an actual bit 23:13:46 ais523, this is quite absurd :D 23:13:49 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 23:14:12 Huffman coding can be generalised based on a similar principle, and in the limit you get arithmetic coding 23:15:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:19:02 ais523: ok, i'll be blunt. i have never understood why it always takes more than one bit to represent the information present in less than one bit 23:19:25 cpressey: it takes more than one bit to /exploit/ that information 23:19:40 if you have less than a bit of information, anything that encodes it must contain padding 23:19:47 well, "exploit", "observe", "make relevant"... 23:20:01 so you encode that less-than-a-bit, and something else as well, and fit it into a smaller size than the bit + the something else 23:21:01 to be blunt I have a trouble with "less than one bit of information" 23:21:54 Vorpal: well, consider run-length encoding 23:21:55 I guess imagining something with 0.5 logical states is just not possible 23:22:04 ais523, yes I know how it works in compression 23:22:15 Vorpal: String of 0 or 1s where one can do better than coinflip to predict the next bit has less than 1 bit of information per bit. 23:22:22 ais523, but I never imagine that as "half-bits" or such 23:22:27 here's a simple one: count, value 23:22:34 if you just get the count, and the count has a value of 1 23:22:39 then the count contains less than a bit of info 23:22:43 because you still need the count to know what the next bit is 23:22:45 um 23:23:02 *next byte 23:23:05 *still need the value 23:23:07 ah 23:23:22 it contains only a very small amount of info, in that you know that the byte after is not the same as the next byte 23:23:34 that's only a small fraction of a bit of info 23:23:53 ais523, how large fraction? 23:23:58 now, this is counterbalanced by the case that a count of, say, 200, would contain a lot more than a bit of info, if you assume the original to be randomly distributed 23:24:00 0.5? 0.2? something else? 23:24:01 Vorpal: less than 1% 23:24:05 of a bit 23:24:06 ais523, how do you decide that 23:24:19 ais523, I can't think of a sensible way to put a number to that 23:24:21 because it allows you to encode 256 possibilities in something that only has 255 possible states 23:24:32 Like if you have string of n bits, where probability of 0 is 75% and probabilty of 1 is 25% and bits are independent, then on average you need about 0.8113n bits to reprent it (as n grows without bound). 23:24:35 so it's log_2(256/255) bits 23:25:00 ais523, eh 23:25:01 *represent 23:25:06 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator 23:25:20 obviously, if your compression scheme does that a lot, it's not a very good compression scheme :) 23:27:13 hm 23:27:34 ais523, I still don't get " because it allows you to encode 256 possibilities in something that only has 255 possible states" 23:27:52 Vorpal: because you know that the next byte is not the same as the current one 23:27:57 as otherwise the run count would have been more than 1 23:28:49 ah 23:29:16 ais523, still it is only less than a bit in the encoding scheme 23:29:22 it is actually one physical bit 23:29:55 well probably more if stored on a harddrive, what with their crazy RLL stuff (or whatever they use nowdays) 23:31:21 I guess you can think of it this way: divide the entire future into two halves: one if you see 0, the other if you see 1. Based on what you've seen so far, you might be able to rule out parts of the future, even if you can't cleanly divide it in half like that. 23:31:43 I was going to say "world" instead of "future" initially; either works, kind of. 23:31:46 cpressey, mhm 23:32:14 * Vorpal splits it in technobabel interpretation of quantum physics 23:32:48 still, this is not quite the same lines as: struct foo { int bar:8; int baz:0.33; } 23:33:00 cpressey, indeed not 23:33:05 or however C does bit-sizing of structurs 23:33:10 I haven't seen that in a long time 23:33:18 cpressey, I think it does it that way 23:33:19 but 23:33:29 the meaning of that int baz:0.33; escapes me 23:33:40 -!- augur has changed nick to Zoidberg. 23:33:40 C sensibly define it as compile time error presumably 23:33:49 -!- Zoidberg has changed nick to augur. 23:34:09 cpressey, however, now define an esolang where something like "struct foo { int bar:8; int baz:0.33; }" would have a sensible meaning 23:34:15 you must! 23:34:22 "I want to be able to store an integer between 0 and 0.33 here" 23:34:43 cpressey, but "integer between 0 and 8" isn't what bar:8 means 23:34:44 SORRY 23:34:46 2^0.33 23:34:53 it means an integer of 8 bits 23:34:57 cpressey, right 23:35:46 cpressey, -1 presumably 23:36:04 since 1 bit is not "between 0 and 2^1" (that would be 0,1,2) 23:36:13 (assuming a closed range) 23:36:21 s/range/interval( 23:36:28 s/(/\// 23:37:00 ok 23:37:10 2^(-0.67) 23:37:14 ouch 23:37:18 cpressey, no 23:37:23 the -1 is outside the exponent 23:37:25 in what I said 23:37:36 oh 23:37:39 8 bits: 2^8 = 256, 2^8-1 = 255 23:37:42 not 2^7 23:37:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:37:46 right 23:38:09 cpressey, so .33 bits is a value between 0 and 0.25701337452182837 (approx) 23:38:34 cpressey, have fun assigning a sensible meaning to that 23:38:45 cpressey, I look forward to seeing the results, but now I must sleep 23:38:48 night → 23:38:57 (wait 23:39:06 actually it need not be sensible 23:39:13 ok 23:39:16 as long as it is fun and actually works in the esolang 23:39:25 well, you know what I mean) 23:39:29 night really → 23:41:17 cpressey, and um, more implementable than TURKEY BOMB 23:41:30 (not saying it has to be easy, just not impossible) 23:41:37 night really argh → 23:46:17 to say that it is impossible is a half-truth 23:57:26 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 2010-10-02: 00:10:10 struct z { int a:0.5; int b:0.5; } 00:10:26 it's fair to say I can store the integer 0, and no other integers, in a 00:10:29 ditto b 00:10:55 it's also fair to say I can store the integers 0 and 1 in z, by the rules of C 00:11:28 but casting seems like cheating 00:11:56 anyway, that's as close as i'm going to attempt atm 00:13:34 what i'm thinking is if you can store 6 values in a and 5 values in b then you should be able to store 30 values... you could somehow base it off that idea 00:14:15 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 00:23:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:24:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:24:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 00:25:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:25:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 00:25:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:30:48 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:36:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:37:53 what's this conversation about again? 00:37:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 00:38:12 sounds like something i'm somewhat familiar with, but i can't extract a summary from the scrollback easily :P 00:38:22 fractional bits of information 00:38:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:38:45 well yeah, but i mean, you just decided to talk about that or there was some specific thing (encoding, problem, whatever) that kicked it off? 00:39:03 just talking about fractals 00:39:06 ah 00:39:07 which have fractional dimensions 00:39:25 i should tell you guys about my script to encode binary data in mirc control codes 00:39:27 ;) 00:39:42 it only grows the size by 272% 00:39:45 no :P 00:39:50 which is pretty good considering the previous incarnation was like 400% :P 00:39:59 Why not just base64 it? 00:40:04 because that's visible 00:40:15 the point is to encode data but not clutter the screen with said data 00:40:23 (since the control codes are non printing characters) 00:40:23 myndzi: wouldn't work here alas, lame +c ;) 00:40:28 indeed 00:40:33 My system will display control codes. 00:40:34 how i hate that mode 00:40:35 ;) 00:40:41 pikhq: i'm sorry for your system 00:40:41 :P 00:41:03 anyway, it's the encoding that's interesting not its use (i haven't really made use of it since i never finished the script it was intended for) 00:41:05 pikhq: not mirc control codes 00:41:06 colours etc. 00:41:13 alise: Aaah. 00:41:18 maybe i should have said formatting codes 00:41:23 myndzi: Are mIRC control codes using the 8th bit of the 7-bit ASCII? 00:41:26 control was a poorly chosen word 00:41:30 nope 00:41:32 they are all <32 00:41:58 incidentally, that pesky 8th bit gives some fun results on misconfigured linux clients when used in conjunction with unicode ;) 00:42:09 invert/italics is tab, fun fun 00:42:20 some irc clients will pass the utf-8 data as-is but you can hide C2 control codes in valid UTF-8 values 00:42:23 My system will render many of those using inverse-color and the ^F^O^O notation, IIRC. 00:42:37 reverse (invert?) is 22 00:42:43 italics is new, but i thought it was not 9 00:42:53 hmm 00:42:53 anyway i'm not using mirc 7 yet so i don't have it included in my encoding 00:42:55 well ^I is something 00:42:58 konversation thinks it's italics 00:43:02 which causes ais523 no end of trouble 00:43:07 ^i is tab 00:43:14 on mirc 6.5 at least 00:43:14 yes 00:43:17 but at least one client thinks it's italics 00:43:21 mirc isn't the only client to implement its own stuff 00:43:30 true. 00:43:32 virc(?) has rgb color codes 00:43:39 That said, using control codes is pretty silly in general. 00:43:39 maybe xircon, i forget which 00:43:49 well, yeah, but they can come in useful sometimes i guess 00:44:01 And evil if it's XON or XOFF. :P 00:44:02 my rule of thumb is to avoid them in "public" 00:44:23 not as evil as sending telnet codes that do fun things to people using telnet :) 00:44:41 or using my utf-8 trick to issue arbitrary ansi codes to someone's terminal 00:44:41 hehe 00:44:53 anyway, what i WAS talking about was my encoding 00:45:06 originally i just took the easy way out and used ^kN,NN or ^kNN 00:45:12 for 3-digit decimal or 2-digit decimal values 00:45:18 this is obviously not very efficient 00:45:19 My rule of thumb is that all text on the Internet should be valid UTF-8, and normalised using NFC. 00:45:28 myndzi: See if that trick works on my terminal, or if PuTTY will remove overlong encodings (if that is what you are doing?) 00:45:32 I don't know 00:45:49 zzo38: i'll look it up, lemme finish typing 00:46:01 for one, mirc has more than just ^k 00:46:18 and for another, ^k has like 7 valid distinct uses 00:46:36 i wound up creating a script to find how many permutations of valid color code sequences could be had from N bytes 00:46:44 color/formatting code, i mean 00:46:59 Normal ASCII escape codes will just be reformatted by PHIRC, though 00:47:09 one byte could be any of the single byte values, or you could have 2, 3, 4, 6, or 7 byte color codes 00:47:35 i did that wrong... 2, 3, 5, 6 00:47:40 Also my client deliberately does not parse IRC color codes 00:47:41 anyway 00:47:59 then i found one that came close to a similar amount of values as a binary bit border 00:48:11 and learned that i could get an extra bit if i used it twice 00:48:25 zzo38: Reasonable decision, actually. 00:48:30 so it's pretty close to in synch with binary, would take a lot of extra work to approach the limit which isn't much less than 272% 00:48:43 so now the values depend on the codes, as well as the pattern of their ordering 00:48:55 it's pretty neat :) 00:49:00 ok, the utf-8 thing 00:49:24 (It just displays color codes using the notation it normally uses for control characters, which is uppercase letter, black on magenta background) 00:49:56 it's C1 not C2, silly me 00:49:58 It will parse some control codes used commonly on IRC, though, if /SET FORMAT + 00:50:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#C1_.28ISO_8859_and_Unicode.29 00:50:21 I don't know whether C1 control codes are enabled in PuTTY 00:50:22 any of those can be embedded as the second byte of a utf-8 sequence 00:50:31 Or, if there is a way to turn them off 00:50:37 most irc clients screen out terminal codes but they let this one pass because they see it as valid utf-8 00:50:53 that's what linux foos get for bitching about people fucking up their screen... eventually i get curious and find what happened and then they get exploited ;) 00:52:00 so i guess 155 is the ansi code thing 00:52:10 194 155 followed by an ansi sequence should do it 00:52:46 Is there a mode to disable C1 escape codes? 00:52:50 ›30;40m black on black(?) 00:52:56 (PHIRC doesn't actually know anything about UTF-8) 00:53:02 dunno, guess it would depend on your terminal configuration 00:53:08 zzo38: Well, you could normalise your Unicode. 00:53:12 then you should be fine, since it'll only see the C1 code and block it 00:53:45 myndzi: That did not change the color. I can see a block followed by "30;40m" and the text 00:53:57 yeah 00:53:59 So I can see it is fine 00:54:06 myndzi: ^[30;40m 00:54:08 i might have done it wrong, i kinda f orget 00:54:18 but anyway, that symbol is not the same as ctrl+[ 00:54:22 Weird. 00:54:38 it is a C1 code that can also be used to introduce ansi codes 00:54:39 You normally do escape and a left square bracket, that is the CSI code 00:54:49 i successfully spoofed my nick to a vulnerable client while testing once 00:54:51 In C1 though, CSI code is a single character 00:54:59 yeah 00:55:39 i always wondered why it was esc then [ when i was a kid 00:55:42 Moral of the story: actually parse your damned text right. :P 00:55:45 but now i know it is because esc is ctrl+[ 00:55:54 pikhq: well that's the thing, the irc client IS parsing the text correctly 00:55:58 but 00:56:15 the irc client thinks the terminal can display utf-8 00:56:21 when the terminal actually cannot or is not configured to 00:57:18 myndzi: (Esc+[)3 is... not a valid UTF-8 sequence. 00:57:49 that's not what i sent 00:57:57 i sent 194 155, which is valid utf-8 00:58:10 but 155 is also C1 for CSI introducer 00:58:15 Ah, yeah. It is. 00:58:40 reminds me sorta of another fun bug i found once 00:58:44 It is up to the terminal program to parse UTF-8 codes (or whatever other encoding it is configured to use), so if a malformed UTF-8 code is sent with a ASCII control character immediately after a UTF-8 begin code, PHIRC will convert it to escape codes before the terminal sees it 00:58:55 certain versions of psybnc were vulnerable to a weird thing that let you basically spoof messages from the irc server 00:59:32 zzo38: ...wat? 00:59:50 that seems like undesirable behavior; i mean, it is a legit utf-8 code and should not be interpreted as a control code 00:59:51 You tried C1 codes, now try sending an overlong encoding of the C0 escape codes, to see if this program will block it. 01:00:13 i don't know what you are referring to by that 01:00:21 myndzi: What's the actual Unicode code point for that combination? 01:00:37 it might be undefined haha, i don't know, but it still shouldn't be taken to be an escape code 01:00:38 myndzi: But multi-byte UTF-8 codes never contain 7-bit ASCII codes. 01:00:51 myndzi: Unicode code point: the number it decodes to. 01:00:55 it's not 7-bit ascii 01:00:57 The high bit is set to indicate it is a UTF-8 code. 01:00:59 oh 01:01:01 it would be umm 01:01:17 Doesn't matter if it's not assigned. :) 01:01:37 10011011 01:01:43 it actually decodes to 155 01:01:50 U+155? 01:01:59 guess so 01:02:20 i don't know if it was important that it do so anymore 01:02:37 Erm, no; the Unicode code points are usually listed in hex. Anyways. 01:02:50 (Sometimes a null character is encoded using overlong encoding so that you can have embedded nulls in a string that is used in a program that uses null terminated strings) 01:04:02 That's U+9B. "CONTROL SEQUENCE INTRODUCER". 01:04:43 oh, right 01:04:46 sorry :P 01:04:48 So: the client should *probably* be removing that anyways. 01:04:59 i didn't know that it actually encoded to that value haha 01:05:10 but i guess you could change it to whatever you wanted 01:05:15 by mangling the first few bits 01:05:19 the first byte could be many things 01:05:23 Apparently, 0x00 through 0xFF are from Latin-1. 01:05:36 makes sense 01:05:42 i think i knew that, actually 01:05:56 i'm not sure why i chose 194, maybe i forgot what the bug was about 01:06:03 it could be that the client was just decoding it and not blocking it 01:06:32 zzo38: i see... sorta. by overlong, you mean a utf-8 value that doesn't need 3 bytes but uses 3, for example? 01:06:47 like 01:06:51 11000000 10000000 01:07:17 <-null? 01:07:20 -!- Kordalien has joined. 01:07:24 it didn't decode here haha 01:08:21 Got rendered as though it were Latin-1 here. 01:08:34 (typical for handling invalid UTF-8) 01:18:08 same 01:44:13 I just got a shaded block, it is what this program does for invalid codes, I think 01:44:36 myndzi: Yes that is what I mean by overlong encodings 02:09:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:27:26 Hmm 02:27:37 On the one hand, the system didn't just roll over and give me someone else's grades 02:28:07 On the other hand, it did display an error message with a stack trace, and my understanding is that that's the wrong way to configure web services 02:42:17 Axioms! 02:47:09 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:55 I don't know if this is accurate, but I just described Objective-C as a mashup of Smalltalk and C, and that the whole is less than the sum of its parts 02:48:04 * Sgeo just added "(Note: I never learned Objective-C, so that last thought is possibly unfounded)" 02:48:58 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 02:53:36 Sgeo: objective-c is an alright language. 02:53:44 it's not creative but it's well-designed 02:53:53 and it inherits smalltalk's excellent object model 02:54:38 TBH, I've kind of fallen in love with CLOS-style object models 02:54:48 * Sgeo prepares to be slapped 02:55:55 You have never fallen in love with anything. 02:56:06 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:56:09 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----### 02:56:32 You make sideways glances at the cleavage of languages over the period of a few days. :P 02:59:43 *sidelong 03:02:27 "Do you have any other interests besides programming?" "I like to read and watch fiction" 03:03:01 * Sgeo is in full-on giggle mode 03:03:07 It's funny because to me the word fiction means novels because I don't know what words mean 03:03:55 No, I'm laughing because it's a very general statement that applies to pretty much everyone 03:04:40 Well, not to illiterate persons before TV I guess 03:06:01 Sgeo: Then it's going to be s/read/listen to/ 03:06:30 Plays used to be popular entertainment, you know. As well as story-telling. 03:10:43 pikhq: I just wish we had Hamlet on the TV every day. :P 03:12:07 Um, WTF 03:13:27 Why is webchat.freenode.net down? 03:14:40 Because you touch yourself at night. 03:15:30 * Sgeo feels sorry for anyone who won't allow themselves to 03:15:52 STOP IT! STOP TURNING EVERYTHING SEXUAL 03:16:27 ... 03:16:27 dude 03:16:32 Gregor's joke is meant to be sexual 03:16:33 it's a cliche 03:16:37 I know 03:16:39 you ... you just ... lose 03:16:49 But last time Gregor said something like that, and I responded, you called me out 03:16:58 I ♥ clichés. 03:17:00 And Unicode. 03:17:08 Definitely ♥ Unicode. 03:17:34 I ? Unicode too *ducks* 03:17:53 I ♥ the compose key 03:17:56 I ♥ diæresis marks and ligatures. I can never think of a word with a diæresis when I need one ... 03:18:05 … 03:18:24 ... 03:18:32 ……… 03:18:42 Good way to tell if you're using fixed-width or not 03:19:08 oerjan: Fix your encoding you fool. 03:19:20 pikhq: No! It is integral that oerjan sees Unicode as ?. 03:19:23 It is part of our culture. 03:19:24 Gregor: You naïve simpleton. 03:19:25 pikhq: Fix your sarcasm-detector you fool. 03:19:26 Our culture is a shabby one. 03:19:39 oerjan does actually see unicode as ? 03:19:51 pikhq: I can never think of a /contextuälly-relevant/ diæresis when I need one. 03:20:02 Gregor: ⁵ 03:20:13 STOP USING DIAERESES ON WORDS THAT DON'T EITHER HAVE HYPHENS IN THEM OR ARE OFTEN WRITTEN WITH ONE 03:20:20 presumably pikhq was meaning that oerjan should fix the encoding he *sees*, not sends, and Gregor misinterpreted this 03:20:25 the more you know ****************=> 03:20:30 wait 03:20:33 ===========================* 03:20:34 there 03:20:49 What a big-ass encyclopedia. What a big ass-encyclopedia. What a big assencyclopædia 03:21:20 What a bigassencyclopædia. 03:21:29 The Encyclopedia Copronomicon 03:22:05 *Coppro-nomicon 03:22:10 X-D 03:22:10 ... 03:22:13 Coppro-nomic-on 03:22:16 coppro plays nomic 03:22:19 OMG SONCPIRACY 03:22:22 ... 03:22:25 son c piracy 03:22:28 son coppro piracy 03:22:28 OMG SONGPIRACY 03:22:31 coppro is someone's son 03:22:36 coppro is a member of the pirate party 03:22:39 We don't know that. 03:22:42 OMG THE COINCIDENCES 03:22:49 ITS SO METAPHYSIC 03:23:02 Gregor: Yes... yes we do :P 03:23:42 through long and tortured logic 03:25:33 I wonder if Eliezer Yudkowsky writing fanfiction is somehow using my brain power as CPU for the seed AI he's designed. 03:25:40 *Yudkowsky's fanfiction 03:39:50 http://www.gnu.org/software/plotutils/ : GNU totally does not name things in intentionally ambiguous ways. 03:40:14 Groan. 03:41:35 -!- augur has joined. 03:42:33 Plotu tils! Plo Tutils! 03:42:52 alise: Tutils of the Palestinian Liberation Organization? 03:42:56 Yes. 03:42:58 :o 03:43:04 IRA Tutils! 03:44:29 they're quite IRAte 03:46:17 IRA Tutus 03:51:58 don't mess with my tutus 04:01:30 -!- wareya has joined. 04:01:45 Hmm, I only need to do one problem for this chapter 04:01:53 One of the choices is knapsack stuff 04:01:57 How hard could it be? 04:02:50 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:02:58 NP? 04:03:04 (EVERYONE: DO NOT NITPICK JOKES) 04:03:15 ("HOW HARD" "NP" IS FUNNY, NO MATTER -- SO SHUT UP) 04:03:24 (DO NOT SAY "BUT NP-HARD") 04:04:01 Well, technically I made no errors anyway. A joke well-executed. 04:07:45 My idea of a way of UTF-8 parsing: [Step 1] Control characters [Step 2] Decode numbers [Step 3] Unicode to unicode conversion [Step 4] Render output 04:08:07 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:08:38 -!- mtve has joined. 04:08:49 alise: except for the error of a paranoid implosion? 04:09:55 oerjan: Implicatory! Verisimilitude was EXTINCT; by then, at least. 04:10:51 implicatorial sesquipedalism 04:14:32 oerjan: Well, aren't we the orthodontist! Stricken, quickly, he fell; his loquaciousness now evaporated, he graduated losing, summa cum laude, and expired. 04:16:38 * oerjan straightens alise's teeth with the saucepan ===\__/ 04:18:37 oerjan: I created your being; post hoc ergo propter hoc axiomatic, fallacies embedded into the velvet that defines you, it; machinery whirrs and purrs and ASCII saucepans confers. 04:18:44 -!- alise has left (?). 04:18:46 -!- alise has joined. 04:18:47 Whoops. 04:20:44 All homework done 04:21:15 * oerjan confers with his saucepan ===\__/ *OUCH* 04:22:29 Good thing about tex4ht: Makes fairly-nice HTML output from LaTeX. 04:22:42 Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ... 04:24:22 Are there C compilers that cannot turn off trigraphs inside of a string? If there are some common ones, it might be necessary to add a option to Enhanced CWEB to tell it to change ? in a string to \? (and also to replace high characters with their escape sequence, if that might also be necessary) 04:26:56 Fecking trigraphs X_X 04:27:05 Most C compilers have the ability to turn off trigraphs /entirely/ 04:28:44 (In GCC they're off unless you ask for them) 04:29:07 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he doesn't get in trouble for the ticket he just submitted 04:29:18 "I recently received an error message. The cause isn't important (I was experimenting 04:29:18 to see if I could do something I shouldn't be able to, but was unable to do it),..." 04:29:42 "I'm a white-hat hacker." 04:29:45 "He's a hacker, lock 'im up!" 04:29:46 Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ... 04:29:51 ... and I still can't find anywhere to put the body. 04:30:44 o.O 04:30:47 How did he die? 04:30:52 Sgeo: Doesn't say. 04:31:01 Well, "unexpectedly" 04:31:12 How often does somebody young enough to be writing tex4ht die expectedly though :P 04:35:41 He died from latex poisoning. 04:35:48 * alise runs to #ubuntu -> 04:35:53 OERJAN CAN'T CATCH M-- 04:37:30 If needed, you could create a TeX macro package that allows output to both DVI and HTML (and possibly also XML and other formats too if required) 04:42:32 u run thru #ubuntu 04:44:48 zzo38: Yes, that's what tex4ht is :P (AFAIK) 04:47:57 Gregor: I don't think so. (And I think tex4ht is designed for LaTeX, anyways) What I meant is writing a macro package that you use commands in it that can make it work for both DVI and HTML and other formats output. 04:50:58 Gregor: So if you don't use LaTeX, watch out! 04:53:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 04:54:55 Ah, trigraphs. The only thing worse than digraphs. 04:55:21 Actually. Digraphs aren't *that* bad. 04:55:28 Trigraphs are just head-poundingly awful. 04:55:59 TeX trigraphs are very useful, even though C trigraphs are bad and useless. 04:56:22 C digraphs are handled during tokenization, unlike trigraphs. 04:56:26 The only thing worse and monographs. 04:56:28 Making them automatically an improvement. 04:56:52 (yes, trigraphs are basically done via sed before compilation) 04:56:59 s/and/are/ X_X 04:57:36 s/are/is/? Idonno, that whole sentence was grammatically dubious. 04:57:44 Also, nonsense. 04:58:08 Yes, I do suppose C digraphs are better than C trigraphs in that way. 04:58:59 Digraphs at least don't cause completely unexpected parses. 05:00:16 But TeX trigraphs are a bit different, because you can use them for many purposes and you can even change how trigraphs are parsed by changing the category codes. 05:03:12 For example, the utfeight.tex program will convert numbers to hex and then make them into trigraphs send to output file, and then input them again (this time TeX will parse the trigraphs), in order to make definitions for all active characters which can be used as part of UTF-8 codes. 05:06:16 lovely quote from wikipedia 05:06:20 "more realistically, CERN's Large Hadron Collider is the subject of a CERN-produced rap video" 05:06:46 I want to make a variant of TeX in one day when I get a chance to do so. What programs would I need to do so? One change I want to add is to make a new trigraph which forces the next character to be treated as a certain character code. For example ^^xd? will make a ? which is a active character. 05:07:51 Another change I want to make is removing the \outer command. 05:09:02 And adding new kind of definitions, such as \idef \progdef \catdef 05:09:23 augur: more realistic than what? :P 05:09:49 i dont know! 05:09:50 what does \outer do zzo38? 05:10:04 more realistic than Stephen Hawking MCing maybe 05:10:22 alise: The \outer command prevents a command from occuring as part of a macro expansion. 05:11:00 (It can be worked around using \write and \input although I think it is better that the \outer command is not there at all) 05:11:49 Another thing I want is to allow \long to be prepended to the use of a macro instead of only allowing it prepending a definition of a macro. 05:16:25 GAHAHAHAHAH 05:16:30 NEED SWAP SPACE 05:16:35 * Sgeo cries 05:18:18 And a way to read in a list, box, and tokens, in ways that they can then be processed by other TeX codes. And a command \glueset to access the glue set value of a box. 05:21:02 Goodnight. Bye. 05:21:08 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:31:36 Such as: \convbox or something like that. 05:47:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:59:05 Trigraphs in TeX are even usable to create trigraphs, example: \message{^^5e^5e} --> ^ 06:00:00 \message{^^5e^5e^21} --> ! 06:05:16 -!- Slereah has joined. 06:34:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:42:12 -!- augur has changed nick to Etruscans. 06:43:04 -!- Etruscans has changed nick to augur. 06:57:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:11:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:11:46 -!- augur has joined. 07:48:54 Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party 07:54:11 What do you have to do if you are a member? 07:54:23 nothing 07:55:06 What is the meaning of being a member, then? 07:55:18 though I think they're going to try to have me chair the online meetings on the basis that I seem to be good at this thin (they're not the online ones. The president of the math society at waterloo wanted me installed as speaker after she'd known me for a week and a half) 07:55:24 to indicate support 07:55:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:40 -!- augur has joined. 07:56:15 So maybe in future...? 07:57:01 coppro: O, did you ever read mathNEWS? 07:58:23 zzo38: how do you know of mathNEWS? 07:59:15 zzo38: also, being a member carries benefits that you might expect of any similar organization - I have a vote 07:59:19 I don't remember where/when I first figured out about it, or how. 07:59:47 you've never been to UW? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:05 I have never been to UW. 08:01:46 anyways, yes, I know of mathNEWS. I even wrote two articles in the most recent issue and contributed a significant portion of the profQUOTES 08:02:02 OK 08:04:13 What did you write about? 08:05:38 (Actually, I found a copy of the articles now and I think I know which one you might have written) 08:06:38 which? 08:07:19 also, lol someone who reads the website.. 08:07:36 I assume that you know then about the E is for Idiot issue? 08:08:15 Did you write the article titled "Reminder: Games Nights Exist"? (I guess based on the information I have) 08:08:37 correct, that was one 08:08:58 that one should also be obvious if you /whois me 08:09:30 Yes I did use the WHOIS command. I also saw "coppro!~scshunt" so I guess, and then did WHOIS to check more 08:11:27 I do not know about the E is for Idiot issue. What is the date for that issue? 08:14:15 dunno 08:14:26 in it there was an article entitled E is for Idiot, that got them sued 08:14:37 because apparently it was defamatory 08:15:04 they settled on posting an apology to their website, which they consider doing almost nothing because the website is not designed to be useful 08:15:12 and so virtually no one reads it 08:16:15 incidentally, pencil policy is hilariou 08:16:17 *hilarious 08:20:50 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:27:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:30:28 I have a question about your opinion about code generation in Enhanced CWEB using interpreted C codes. The question is what commands you would find useful to be built-in that can be accessed by C interpreter, for code generation? 08:31:24 recompiling a specific function 08:32:17 Can you give an example? 08:32:54 well, suppose I have a function and change its definition; it would be nice to tell the compiler to recompile it 08:33:01 for simple functions, even from within the interpreter itself 08:36:29 I don't quite understand. Can you give a more specific example of what you are trying to do? 08:48:08 The C compiler does not work that way? Enhanced CWEB cannot change the way the C compiler works! 09:06:53 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:10:30 -!- lament has joined. 09:11:42 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:26:43 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:34:35 -!- zzo38 has quit. 10:03:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:07:54 15:25:06 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator ← does lambdabot not do logs? 10:08:02 @type log 10:08:03 forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a 10:08:34 Phantom_Hoover, um, anything wrong with using a calculator still? 10:09:08 Well, it requires that you reach for the calculator and hit buttons on that, then type the result into the channel. 10:09:43 Phantom_Hoover, he didn't say he meant a physical calculator. Could have been dc or such 10:10:09 Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 10:10:36 Phantom_Hoover, hah, well some other computer based calculator then 10:12:03 Phantom_Hoover, you know that bc was traditionally implemented in dc? 10:12:12 I do. 10:12:26 Phantom_Hoover, and bc has log 10:12:32 while I can't find it in dc 10:12:38 this scares me 10:12:46 As part of an extra library which IIRC is written in bc. 10:13:25 Phantom_Hoover, still, writing an infix calculator in bc is probably indicative of multiple things in DSM 10:13:45 err 10:13:47 "in dc" 10:13:49 of course 10:14:12 I doubt profoundly that bc was ever written in raw dc. 10:14:23 Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean then 10:14:25 dc doesn't have anything near the I/O capabilities. 10:15:05 from wikipedia: 10:15:07 As an example, here is an implementation of the Euclidean algorithm to find the GCD: 10:15:07 dc -e '??[dSarLa%d0 dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 XD 10:15:53 ? doesn't read a line of input, it executes a line of input. 10:16:02 hm 10:16:06 it seems to work anyawy 10:16:08 anyway* 10:16:20 So if you have ?P it doesn't echo the line, it executes it and prints the top of the stack. 10:16:35 it doesn't have ?P, it has P? 10:16:44 but hm 10:16:47 Same differene. 10:16:52 *difference 10:17:29 not at all, the P prints a prompt there 10:17:56 The point is that dc doesn't actually have a command to read a line of input and push it onto the stack. 10:18:30 hm okay 10:19:09 Typing "Hello, world!" into ?P just spits out a load of errors. 10:20:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:20:16 Numbers push themselves when evaluated, so you can use it for them if you don't mind exposing your program to unbuffered code. 10:21:15 hm 10:21:51 I would think bc would use dc behind the scenes when calculating things, and do parsing and such in C. 10:22:20 * Phantom_Hoover → stuff 10:22:22 or some other language 10:22:26 such as shell 10:33:38 -!- Harpyon has joined. 10:46:04 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 10:54:57 -!- tombom has joined. 11:01:38 -!- Mechnoob has joined. 11:01:40 -!- Mechnoob has quit (Client Quit). 11:05:35 -!- Harpyon has joined. 11:24:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:29:03 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 12:29:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:31:29 -!- Harpyon has joined. 12:34:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:42:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: ...). 13:01:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:02:51 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:23:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:29:06 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:51:17 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:54:33 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:56:19 -!- alise has joined. 14:57:42 -!- olsner has joined. 15:02:24 23:48:54 Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party 15:02:24 pretty sure he meant the male part 15:02:28 23:54:11 What do you have to do if you are a member? 15:02:28 23:54:23 nothing 15:02:28 23:55:06 What is the meaning of being a member, then? 15:02:28 lol 15:03:12 23:59:47 you've never been to UW? 15:03:12 i think he's in high school 15:04:11 coppro: this "mathNEWS" is hopelessly shoddy -- 15:04:13 "Indeed, vi is nothing more than a wrapper script for the command ex, which is itself a wrapper for ed" 15:04:37 it is, though 15:04:43 no it isn't 15:04:45 so i'm not sure what u mean 15:04:53 OF COURSE IT IS 15:04:58 and ed is a wrapper for cat 15:04:59 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l $(which vi) 15:05:00 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi 15:05:00 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi 15:05:00 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:00 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:00 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 754744 2010-04-16 14:33 /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:02 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/ex 15:05:04 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/ex -> /etc/alternatives/ex 15:05:06 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ex 15:05:08 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/ex -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:10 ex is a *symlink* to vi on most systems. 15:05:16 not a wrapper script. and not the other way around 15:05:19 yes 15:05:22 that's because they did 15:05:24 and furthermore ex is an entirely separate editor, nothing to do with ed, merely inspired by it 15:05:25 mv ex vi 15:05:41 also they did mv ex ed 15:05:46 cheater99: if you're trying to troll, it's incredibly boring and obvious; if you're actually serious, you're just stupid 15:05:53 (if you're trying to make a joke, it isn't funny) 15:06:00 how could you ever think i was serious with that? 15:07:05 i'm trying to reconstruct the thought process 15:07:19 well, you've said similarly silly things before :) 15:07:21 was it "wow, that guy cheater99 TOTALLY doesn't know the difference between ed and ex!" 15:07:22 ? 15:07:30 for a second :P 15:07:37 trolled! 15:07:37 also, i'm *fairly* sure they're just 15:07:39 :P 15:07:43 (a) using a lenient definition of "script", and 15:07:57 (b) apparently not required to actually look at ex to decide what it does 15:08:12 no, they're just trolling too. 15:08:17 (The whole article is an unfunny joke; it provides an "implementation" of ed in Python that just reads input up until a "q" and outputs ?.) 15:08:24 also, vim is just a wrapper around vi with some added bash scripts 15:08:26 I'm fairly sure the introductory sentences are serious. 15:08:32 and emacs is a wrapper around screen and vim. 15:09:06 and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp 15:09:24 however, lisp is a wrapper around haskell, and haskell is a wrapper around erlang 15:09:29 no one has solved that problem yet 15:11:40 erlang is also a wrapper around BANCStar 15:13:38 coppro: ok i take it back, prof quotes more than makes up for it (i will not support your insipid logotype capitalisation) 15:13:58 hmm i seem to use insipid to mean much more than it actually does :) 15:15:16 "I was giving a tour of the observatory one day and ended up explaining how the stars are actually like the Sun, just really far away. It was great to catch people up from the 15th century." ;; i have had to do this more than i would like 15:15:36 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:21:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:23:31 oerjanerer 15:23:47 * oerjan oerjaneers 15:27:49 alise: see, you got the hang of it 15:28:45 `addquote Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:28:51 haha 15:29:08 Huh, apparently MI2's soundtrack WAS actually designed for MT-32. 15:29:16 Maybe it's just the intro music that sounds a bit odd. 15:30:36 roland mt-32? 15:30:38 really? 15:30:45 No output. 15:30:50 cheater99: sure, just like the MI1 soundtrack 15:30:55 and all the Space Quest soundtracks 15:31:03 oh, i was thinking mission impossible 2 15:31:05 not monkey island 15:31:06 lawl 15:31:09 yeah, i know about monkey island 15:31:13 dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 Space Quest -- was it 5? -- even showed "SPACE QUEST" or something on the MT-32's LCD. 15:31:20 I have an actual MT-32. 15:31:24 haha nice 15:31:25 Unfortunately: hard to wire up to a computer. Very hard. 15:31:31 do you have a roland sound canvas? 15:31:34 why is it hard? 15:31:35 And the analogue background noise is endearing but noticeable. 15:31:41 cheater99: no, I don't; and because it just has audio ports 15:31:53 and not much wants to send the right stuff down the line... 15:32:22 `addquote dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 cheater99: I *have* got it to play MIDI -- but in actual audio software only. 15:32:41 hey wait HackEgo is broken :( 15:32:45 `echo hi 15:32:51 hi 15:32:51 oerjan: no, just very slow 15:32:55 give it a few minutes 15:33:07 alise: but it answered No output above :( 15:33:09 alise: still don't know why it's difficult to wire it up? 15:33:20 oerjan: hmm 15:33:27 cheater99: I explained: 15:33:33 cheater99: It has no computery ports, only audio ports. 15:33:34 233| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 Getting software to send MT-32 data down the audio line is non-trivial. 15:33:47 ah just random failure 15:33:54 `quote 232 15:33:59 232| It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! WRONG 8 WEEKS 15:34:05 alise: ohh 15:34:06 cheater99: (Especially the special remapping ones where they change the entire sound, which a *lot* of games do.) 15:34:08 alise: ok got it 15:34:15 `addquote Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:34:16 cheater99: I'm sure it's *possible*, but you sure as heck can't get ScummVM to do it. 15:34:22 233| Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:34:22 Which is basically the only reason to do it. 15:34:38 -!- Harpyon has joined. 15:34:46 -!- Harpyon has quit (Client Quit). 15:34:53 wait now it _reused_ the number D: 15:34:54 cheater99: Pirated MT-32 ROMs (or you could *manually* remove them... !) plus the emulator does a very good job. 15:35:00 Still doesn't sound analogue though. 15:35:01 `quote 233 15:35:01 oerjan: when? 15:35:05 233| Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:35:27 alise: 233 for both Vorpal and last Phantom_Hoover quote 15:35:37 `addquote dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 oerjan: eek :D 15:35:53 234| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 whew 15:36:12 Gregor: HackEgo's quote database has some _weird_ bugs 15:36:14 `quote 231 15:36:16 231| pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that 15:36:18 `quote 232 15:36:22 232| It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! WRONG 8 WEEKS 15:36:25 `quote 233 15:36:36 233| Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:36:38 `quote 234 15:36:41 `quote 12/13 15:36:44 i think HackEgo may have something in the DSM 15:36:45 No output. 15:36:47 234| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 oerjan: duplicate quote 15:36:55 i suggest we start supporting rational numbers in the primary key. 15:36:57 234 is 15:36:58 `help 15:36:59 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 15:37:11 let's see if i remember how to use revert 15:37:18 alise: um how so? 15:37:27 oh wait 15:37:29 you're right 15:37:35 i thought your addquote line was actually one of my quote requests 15:37:39 alise: HackEgo _overwrote_ the original 233 it seems 15:37:46 :D 15:38:19 it looks like all the quotes finally got in, anyhow 15:38:28 (FOR NOW) 15:40:44 the end of LeChuck's Revelation is sweet 15:44:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:46:04 and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp <-- ITYM PROLOG. sheesh don't you know ANYTHING? 15:46:21 :( 15:46:28 Dear whatever is causing window borders etc. to just die: Fuck you 15:46:37 please don't hit me mommy :( 15:46:46 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----### 15:46:48 Sgeo: on ubuntu? 15:46:53 ALSO, I'M NOT YOUR MOMMY 15:47:04 Yes 15:47:10 Sgeo: it's fucking compiz 15:47:17 the worst piece of software in existence 15:47:31 compiz is terribly designed but i have an intel gpu so it just works :P 15:47:38 same 15:47:42 but it still gave me that shit 15:47:46 as for sgeo 15:47:46 ha ha 15:47:58 ok so i probably just haven't given it enough time :p 15:48:13 * Sgeo likes his visual effects 15:48:23 Not enough to deal with this, though 15:48:32 Sgeo: oh, what? you have the wobbly resize and everything turned on? 15:48:35 LOL 15:48:36 * Sgeo wonders if this is also somehow related to Firefox crashing 15:48:40 No, just the defaults 15:48:47 Normal or whatever's above that 15:48:54 Extra 15:48:55 Normal 15:49:11 then the only visual effect is... minimising and restoring 15:49:29 well, shadows and non-active window semitransparency 15:49:30 but that's it 15:49:32 (titlebar) 15:49:41 (barely noticeable effect) 15:49:50 My terminal stopped being transparent! 15:49:58 Meh, I'll live 15:50:00 ... 15:50:04 TRANSPARENT TERMINALS ARE THE WORST FUCKING IDEA EVER 15:50:10 like translucent fucking paper 15:50:22 hope you feel cool 15:50:25 "Roland MT-32 and CM-32L control and pcm roms for use with DOSBox and Munt" ;; yesplz 15:50:35 but but then you can spy on people when you're reading! 15:54:18 [[The next thing we have is "Movies That Don't Have Sequels" Movie Night! We're showing Pirates of the Caribbean and The Matrix.]] 15:57:34 * oerjan tends to see Highlander included in such lists too 15:57:45 I DON'T WANT THE FUCKING SPECIAL EDITION I WANT THE ORIGINAL OCTOBER 1990 SOMI 15:59:10 * Sgeo only saw approx. the ending of The Matrix, and the two sequels 15:59:45 seriously? 15:59:52 you've watched two terrible movies 15:59:55 and spoiled a really good one 15:59:57 fail 16:07:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:07:29 Hi :-) 16:08:26 the ho 16:09:04 *de 16:11:30 AAAH 16:11:39 oerjan: relatedly, Games That Don't Have More Than N Sequels 16:11:40 Notifications are no longer semitransparent 16:11:45 Sgeo: OH NO 16:11:56 * oerjan shoots at the zombies following Sgeo 16:12:01 Games That Don't Have More Than 2 (or 1 if you're boring and anal or Ron Gilbert) Sequels: Monkey Island 16:12:13 And they're completely invisible when the cursor is over them 16:12:17 Games That Probably Don't Have More Than 1 Sequel For Someone: Fallout 16:12:19 Sgeo: SO WHAT 16:15:26 -!- Kordalien has joined. 16:19:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:19:58 http://i.imgur.com/zPEGs.jpg 16:20:49 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:30:42 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 16:31:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:31:28 It's a magic dance magic dance magic dance 16:31:34 * Sgeo starts singing 16:31:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:33:11 It's just starting to rain here :-( 16:37:34 Remember... 16:37:34 Wherever you go... 16:37:35 On sea or on land, 16:37:35 You can't ever hide 16:37:35 From Largo LeGrande! 16:40:56 234| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 `quote 231 16:41:13 orejan completely fails 16:41:20 I did not claim it was easier to read 16:41:23 231| pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that 16:41:25 I quoted wikipedia saying so 16:41:40 yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit 16:42:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:43:52 http://miwiki.net/images/Mi2se_comparison.jpg ;; what did the redraw do to the poor man's nose... 16:50:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:50:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:52:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:52:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:22:33 Vorpal: the quote is funnier that way, stop complaining :) 17:26:26 -!- impomatic has left (?). 17:29:01 Which is more line-noise-y? J or dc? 17:29:34 neither are line-noisey. 17:29:37 you have clearly never seen line noise 17:29:49 also, J code is more comprehensible than dc code. 17:31:33 -!- zeotrope has joined. 17:35:53 -!- lament has joined. 17:51:39 I don't like J; it's not open source :-/ 17:58:44 "Boo hoo." The libraries are at least viewable-source. 17:58:49 Feel free to reimplement it... 17:59:19 http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtowns.png ;; Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, English FM Towns version 17:59:24 http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtownsj.png ;; Japanese FM Towns version. 17:59:25 *Groan* 17:59:42 (Real screenshots.) 18:00:31 did someone say J? 18:00:41 Yes, yes they did. 18:00:48 alise: how does line noise look? 18:01:03 http://github.com/zeotrope/j7-src 18:01:15 olsner: not like a bunch of letters, a few punctuation chars and a lot of []s! 18:01:29 but more like perl code? 18:01:50 olsner: a lot of control characters, most likely 18:01:50 an old version of the J interpreter 18:01:57 zeotrope: ah, the first version? 18:02:03 no ... the first version was one file 18:02:09 "Viewable-source" 18:02:10 Yeesh 18:02:14 zeotrope: where did you get this? 18:02:19 zeotrope: also, fuck formatting changes 18:02:21 Windows CE is also "viewable-source" 18:02:25 waterloo APL/J archives 18:02:32 zeotrope: awesome. now undo your lame changes :D 18:02:38 Gregor: no, as in you can download it freely and it has the files right there 18:02:40 and you can change them 18:02:41 and it works 18:02:47 you just can't redistribute changes. 18:02:48 well 18:02:49 in fact 18:02:53 distributing a patch should be legal 18:03:02 so... whoo qmail-style development 18:03:13 the only actually closed-source bit is the interpreter itself and the Java UI 18:03:31 i think a lot of the forms (UI) stuff is part of the lib too so that'd be sourced as well 18:03:38 People who use shitty licenses are the worst kind of people :P 18:03:47 in j7.01 this will be the case 18:03:58 the gtk and web frontend will be written in J 18:04:01 Gregor: there is no license, it's freeware 18:04:05 zeotrope: omg, there's gonna be a gtk frontend? 18:04:09 zeotrope: <3 18:04:18 K has cooler UI stuff though ;) 18:04:24 K3 that is 18:04:30 K has a lot of cool things 18:04:40 K4/K5 are abominations of databasery :< 18:04:44 too bad its license sucks even more 18:04:51 yeah well 18:04:58 nsl still has the binaries :P 18:05:09 don't those binaries have a time limit? 18:05:12 although it's not in a linked path 18:05:15 zeotrope: no 18:05:21 it's the full k3 18:05:27 or at least... i never found a limitation 18:05:28 the manual, too 18:05:35 linux, windows and i think solaris or something weird like that 18:05:35 hmm, I'll take a look 18:05:40 but the windows binaries in wine work way better than the linux ones 18:05:41 for gui 18:05:48 zeotrope: as i said, pretty sure it's in an unlinked directory 18:05:55 the megabreds guys linked me 18:06:49 I've never liked Q 18:07:01 zeotrope: wait, why will it be 701? 18:07:04 it's 602 now 18:07:12 lots of unreleased/pay-only revisions? 18:07:28 or just a weird versioning scheme? 18:07:40 I guess, I'm not sure how they are named 18:07:55 since the old interpreter I showed you is called version 7 18:08:00 Slightly silly yet probably good idea for running Windows programs that don't work well in WINE (old games using obscure Direct2D features, for instance): have a Windows VM for qemu in QCOW. Create a new QCOW image using that one as the base. Install. 18:08:00 http://www.kx.com/a/ ;; here's a big directory of (official) k stuff 18:08:06 there might be a k3 binray there somewhere 18:08:14 Voila, per-app virtual machines not using unreasonable space. 18:09:06 pikhq: Or just use Xen to virtualise Windows! MWAHAHAHA-- 18:09:56 alise: Well, to do that, you need to be using a recent CPU, and qemu built to use Xen. 18:09:59 zeotrope: i'm trying to find k3 now :) 18:10:07 pikhq: OR JUST USE PLAIN XEN MWAHAHA 18:10:11 ya, me too 18:10:21 I love Arthur Whitney's C style 18:10:22 zeotrope: if all else fails i can try and get in touch with the guy who linked me. 18:10:49 alise: No source license handy, sadly. 18:10:58 pikhq: MWAHAHAHA 18:11:06 zeotrope: have you seen the k->english code? 18:11:07 it's awesome 18:11:15 no? link? 18:11:20 zeotrope: i'll try and find it 18:11:30 zeotrope: basically it replaces verbs with what they do and does a few adjective changes 18:11:31 quite amusing 18:11:39 especially as the code itself is incomprehensible :P 18:11:48 to a non K-er :P 18:11:57 zeotrope: to a mortal 18:12:05 pikhq: Have fun fighting Windows update. 18:12:13 I find J quite readable, but K pushes it with the overloading 18:12:20 Gregor: Here's the thing: we use Windows 2000 for it. THERE ARE NO UPDATES 18:12:25 zeotrope: tbh i've written a bit of k myself using the manual 18:12:29 zeotrope: the gui stuff is amazingly cool 18:12:30 Or 95, depending on what works better. 18:12:39 pikhq: Have fun getting hax0rd ;) 18:12:44 zeotrope: every value has properties 18:12:52 Gregor: yeah cuz you'd put it on the net of course. 18:13:02 Gregor: No known vulnerabilities for a fully-patched version of either, because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT. 18:13:06 zeotrope: like every value has its own dictionary...directory...hash table 18:13:10 and in fact every value has a path to it from the root 18:13:10 Well, except for in Internet Explorer. 18:13:13 an object filesystem 18:13:14 But who uses that shit? 18:13:18 anyway, every object has below it a GUI directory 18:13:26 where you specify what kind of control it should show as and actions and the like 18:13:36 and then you can have lists, and specify how they should show, as a form or a spreadsheet or whatever 18:13:38 Gregor: And anyways: totally totally behind iptables, even if it *is* on the net. 18:13:38 and then you just show them 18:13:40 it's really cool 18:13:44 I vaguely remember that, it was called a K-tree or something 18:13:48 yeah 18:13:57 http://www.nsl.com/k/view.k ;; K tree viewer :P 18:14:07 the blah..x stuff is the gui stuff 18:14:39 http://www.nsl.com/papers/spreadsheet.htm spreadsheets are stupidly simple since it's basically built-in :P 18:14:59 zeotrope: anyway windows is unquestionably the best platform for using K on, WINE works fine too. 18:15:04 for the gui 18:17:25 why must all the modern APLs be closed 18:17:28 :( 18:17:38 zeotrope: A+! 18:17:43 A+ doesn't count 18:17:43 THE MOST TOTALLY AWESOME APL DERIVATIVE EVER 18:17:47 haha 18:17:50 haha why not? i sort of agree but 18:17:53 interested in hearing your reasoning 18:18:00 A+ amuses me because of the ... conventional libraries 18:18:04 also, nine parameters bullshit 18:18:05 the character set for one 18:18:24 but it's more APLthentic :P 18:18:28 and it lacks a lot of "modern" stuff 18:18:36 hm like what? 18:18:40 good gui support? 18:18:51 libraries ya 18:18:56 but even semantics of the language 18:19:03 hmm 18:19:04 example? 18:19:46 exceptions? 18:19:46 zeotrope: grah, you have got me looking for k3! 18:19:55 wait, exceptions in what sense? 18:20:13 like proper error checking 18:20:21 nit-picking 18:20:25 as in non-local control flow? 18:20:29 but anything that applies to APL 18:20:32 non-local, imperative control flow? 18:20:37 ya 18:20:38 i'd say that's not a thing to brag about having! 18:20:44 not gotos 18:20:50 i know what exceptions are 18:20:57 they're still non-local, imperative control flow 18:21:03 which breaks like 3 out of 3 rules of how array programming works 18:21:13 if they are useful.. 18:21:19 (functional, not imperative, no "control flow" as such) 18:21:29 zeotrope: not that useful imo. 18:21:30 so are explicit conditionals 18:21:37 ok that i'll grant 18:23:23 hmm A+ has a lot of things I never knew.. 18:23:57 does it have a rank operator? 18:24:45 or does it still use APL bracket syntax 18:24:52 dunno 18:24:57 zeotrope: k has no rank :) 18:24:59 simplicity! 18:25:15 but rank is simplicity 18:25:29 generalizing a hard concept into one operator 18:25:32 zeotrope: no, k literally has no replacement for it 18:25:35 you just don't do that >:) 18:25:52 as far as i understand; i may be wrong 18:26:11 no, I believe you are correct 18:26:20 from what I have seen of K code 18:26:26 IS THAT AN INSULT MY FRIEND 18:26:50 APL FIGHT! 18:28:16 x@>#:'x 18:28:30 that's K for sorting strings by length 18:28:45 it appears that #:' does each length 18:28:58 so there must be some sort of selection 18:29:15 it's just magic so there 18:30:32 J version is better imo: (/: #&>) 18:30:51 you'd say that, Jacist 18:30:56 which sounds like racist, coincidence? 18:31:02 not at all.. 18:31:02 I declare jihad 18:31:59 on J? 18:32:07 J..Jihad..zomg 18:32:11 yes 18:32:19 it's all so clear now 18:32:19 JJihad, J^2ihad 18:42:39 WHERE IS K 18:43:25 zeotrope: btw http://www.nsl.com/papers/instant.htm, starts out normal before he starts freaking transmitting code to be executed and then *editing objects that result and re-sending them* 18:43:28 you may have already seen it 18:43:39 not sure exactly how secure it is :P 18:45:35 I'm impressed at how much K stuff there is 18:45:48 zeotrope: most of it his :P 18:46:00 ya :P 18:46:04 what's his name again, i've forgotten 18:46:08 Steven A...? 18:46:09 Steven Apter? 18:47:37 yup 18:47:42 zeotrope: http://www.nsl.com/links.html he has quite an esolang passion if you grep /Esoteric/ 18:47:45 stevan 18:47:50 also there's some esoteric language implementations on nsl.com... 18:48:09 unlambda, jot, zot, 01, 10, befunge-93, false, befreak, brainfuck 18:48:14 in K ofc 18:50:21 zeotrope: if olegfink was online i'd just ask him for the link 18:51:10 is that the J/K oleg? 18:51:28 zeotrope: is there a specific J/K oleg? 18:51:31 I suppose it may be. 18:51:35 http://nsl.com/k/excel.k ;; excel v1 18:51:37 http://nsl.com/k/excel/excel2.k ;; excel v2 18:51:39 WHAT NOW MICROSOFT 18:52:03 the goggles.. 18:52:12 zeotrope: see bottom of page for actual VB macros for excel :D 18:52:18 to use with k for ... i have no idea what this does 18:52:25 http://nsl.com/k/excel/ 18:52:32 maybe k.xls holds the key 18:55:12 k.xls has a macro called kload, I'm assuming this is an interface to excel 18:55:34 the mind boggles. 18:55:40 but is it to write K in excel 18:55:43 the bind moggles 18:55:49 zeotrope: i think it's two-way?? I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS THIS 18:55:50 or to manipulate excel from K 18:56:03 the k obvs parses formulas... 18:56:34 ya, small lexer there 18:57:14 and parser 18:57:16 and .. 18:57:19 and something 18:58:12 I also once saw K in K 18:58:42 http://nsl.com/k/wolfram.k 18:58:54 in which steven rewrites A New Kind of Science in three lines 18:59:01 then gives it a GUI in three 18:59:05 well, basically two 18:59:12 what's K 19:00:06 a descendant of APL 19:00:15 why do we care? 19:00:33 no one said you do 19:02:02 cheater99: we have cared about J/K for a while. 19:02:21 alise: oh ok 19:02:21 a year or two in fact 19:02:28 is that a word play 19:02:28 zeotrope: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k ;; the ->english 19:02:40 http://nsl.com/papers/kisntlisp.htm seems to imply it turns 19:02:45 +(#:'=v[;1];?v[;1]) 19:02:45 into 19:02:46 and are you gonna suddenly scream out JUST KIDDING!! 19:02:46 flip(count each group v[;1];unique v[;1]) 19:02:48 cheater99: no. 19:02:55 that would be stupid. 19:02:59 yes 19:03:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:03:26 but because of that, it would also be completely unexpected. which would make it smart again. 19:03:34 no 19:03:38 no it wouldn't 19:03:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:04:14 *sneeze* 19:04:18 * cheater99 has a cold : ( 19:04:47 * alise is COLS AND HEARTLESS 19:05:10 *COLD 19:05:13 alise: so you're tabular? 19:05:17 there is a similar one in J, converts J to "english" 19:05:23 or haskell imo 19:05:34 alise: do you run a local instance of squid proxy? 19:05:57 cheater99: no 19:06:00 zeotrope: lol 19:06:05 cheater99: do you? 19:08:49 yes 19:08:54 why? 19:09:00 it works perfectly for fixing my internet woes 19:09:04 define 19:09:12 i use mobile internet (temporarily) and they have this transparent proxy 19:09:24 i used mobile internet for over a month 19:09:31 it minifies html and recompresses images, and sometimes it returns empty responses in error 19:09:36 it didn't compress images though or any of that bullshit 19:09:40 squid has an option for retrying that 19:09:43 just had a content filter, easily removed 19:09:46 (you just call up) 19:09:49 ALSO: 19:09:55 it's great for when you use multiple browsers 19:10:00 and want to share a cache between them 19:10:03 i don't 19:10:13 also allows webpages to be prefetched 19:18:20 however, it seems to be fucking up dns too 19:18:32 so i get squid complaining that there are no dns records for q.ebaystatic.com. 19:18:40 and i have to think about getting a dns caching proxy too 19:18:51 http://www.logarithmic.net/ghost.xhtml ;; click "random" a lot 19:18:52 wonderful 19:19:31 alise: how come you're all into diagrams suddenly? 19:19:38 cheater99: er, I am? 19:19:42 what else have i said about diagrams? 19:19:50 you were posting some diagram game last week i think 19:20:15 where you had to come up with the longest interconnected line or something like that and had hexagonal tiles 19:20:40 really? 19:20:43 no, no i didn't 19:20:47 you must be thinking of someone else 19:20:50 or i have amnesia 19:22:08 it's probably my error 19:22:32 'a aC C', 'a bC D', 'b aD C', 'b bD D', 'cacAAA', 'dacBBB', 'cbcBBB', 'dbcBBB', 'cadAAA', 'dadBBB', 'cbdBBB', 'dbdAAA', colors=['#fff', '#000', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#000', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#fff'] 19:22:35 a tileset implementing rule 110 19:22:54 colors doesn't work with the web version 19:22:55 it seems 19:23:10 i've seen it 19:23:25 so i wonder when his program knows that a tileset is "solved" 19:23:40 when it's filled the whole field, which is finite, presumably 19:23:45 i mean this isn't regular at all that i know of: '11 1 ', '111 1 ' 19:23:46 ok 19:23:51 cheater99: it's random 19:23:52 i think 19:23:56 ah ok 19:24:04 but sometimes it does backtracking 19:24:05 which is why you get a different one each time 19:24:10 and i don't know when it decides to do that 19:24:13 cheater99: presumably if it figures out it can't fit something somewhere 19:24:14 at all 19:24:37 maybe possibly not terminating? 'dDDDd-', 'ddDd-D', 'ddd--D' 19:25:17 try it 19:25:24 heh 19:25:25 it hates you :) 19:25:41 cheater99: it may be impossible to do, or simply take a very long time 19:25:54 yes 19:26:15 but given that i'm only on a centrino, it's relatively NP-hard. 19:27:48 cheater99: ... wat 19:27:58 worst abuse of NP-hard ever :D 19:28:23 it's np-hard-to-disprove-on-a-slow-cpu 19:33:35 cheater99: wow he included ghost diagrams in his phd thesis 19:33:43 http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/thesis chapter 7 apparently 19:33:52 holy 60 megabyte pdf batman :) 19:33:58 alise: niiice 19:34:21 i can't get the hang of making nice patterns yet :( 19:36:34 cheater99: oh the same guy also wrote a GIMP plugin that does that awesome texture synthesis stuff 19:36:42 i.e. "oh look i just removed this object by coping some of the sky" and the like 19:37:29 you mean the least-power-path thing? 19:38:02 hmm? 19:38:18 cheater99: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer 19:38:22 see the example pages 19:38:45 photoshop recently introduced this and everyone called it magical 19:38:55 resynthesizer is slightly less polished but still pretty good 19:39:05 also part of his Ph.D. xD 19:40:18 * alise , in a stunning burst of insanity, decides to code a stupid half-wiki 19:40:46 oh that's cooool 19:40:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 19:42:13 i like this a looot: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer/theming 19:42:34 ARGH 19:42:39 I can't seem to press Enter! 19:42:47 On ShareKeyboard 19:42:51 press the other enter 19:43:31 why are browsers so stupid that they can't embed a program inside a page 19:43:33 without like java crap 19:43:38 i wanna say 19:43:52 This is a test, this is only a test. ShareKeyboard is pretty awesome. Except for the lack of an Enter key... help me help me I can't say anything 19:44:07 alise: don't get me started 19:44:16 alise: every technology used by the internet is a failed piece of crap 19:44:27 foo = document.getElementById("editor").runApplication(preferences.editor, "-stdin"); foo.write(sometext); 19:44:28 or whatever 19:44:33 reasons why this doesn't work: 19:44:36 - shitty OSes are architectured shittily 19:44:45 - LOL EVERYBODY FAILS AT MAKING A SECURITY SYSTEM SO WE JUST STOP PEOPLE DOING USEFUL THINGS 19:44:47 - fuck everything 19:44:51 I had to switch to stock keyboard to send that... although actually, in landscape mode, there's a share button 19:44:57 Erm, send button 19:45:33 ♥ 19:47:30 cheater99: ... so instead i'll just implement my own editor component! BECAUSE I CLEARLY WANT TO DO THAT 19:47:40 fuck the web. fuck it fuck it 19:48:00 yes, fuck it 19:48:01 i made some wiki software once that popped open your editor to edit pages, that was quite nice but only worked locally... 19:48:24 cheater99: and here's the monstrosity that did it: 19:48:37 it was a pre-rendered dealie 19:48:37 i expect java 19:48:39 not online 19:48:42 so 19:48:51 the edit link linked to a *localhost* with ?page=foo 19:48:51 now 19:48:53 on your localhost 19:48:56 you ran a server 19:48:59 that listened for requests 19:49:01 ahh 19:49:01 haha 19:49:04 and opened your editor 19:49:14 sounds like php and system() 19:49:16 so you'd click the link on your external server, which would bounce back to localhost, which would open your editor and redirect you back 19:49:21 so you had an "edit" link that worked 19:49:37 then you edited, saved, and pressed whatever hotkey you had to build and upload the site 19:49:47 the code was a bit of a mess though, for the building bit 19:49:53 Testing with WifiKeyboard, this is a test this is only a test. 19:49:59 This is much, much better for IRC 19:50:11 And no ads! 19:50:24 Can't see the input on the computer screen, though 19:50:29 But I can seem to backspace 19:50:36 "Male infertility gene discovered" --BBC News 19:50:53 NATURAL SELECTION: THE MORE YOU KNOW =============* 19:51:33 So in Game mode, backspace only sends one backspace 19:52:10 Love, love, is a verb, love is a doing word 19:52:13 ♥ 19:52:18 ə 19:52:20 Shut up. 19:52:42 Never! 19:52:47 Muahahahahhahahahhh! 19:52:49 * SgeoN1 goes insane 19:54:10 I think this will be useful at schoo, so I don't have to login to, say, Gmail to respond using a decent keybiard 19:54:25 Hmm, I'm not even looking at my phone right now, so don't know if I'm typoing 19:54:33 Since Wifi Keyboard doesn't show current input 19:56:56 It occurs to me that it's not the most secure thing to use at school :/ 19:57:21 cheater99: How do you name things? I'm wondering if there is actually a trick t it. 19:57:26 *to 19:57:29 Busyloop! 19:57:58 alise: in a greenfield project, in a legacy project, or when reverse-engineering? 19:57:58 Well, if someone else starts typing, the thing will complain about multiple input 19:58:23 cheater99: Just... naming a spare-time project. Greenfield, sure. 19:58:32 I don't have any other kinds of projects. :p 19:58:42 oh, you mean naming a project 19:58:54 i thought you meant code objects (classes, functions, variables) 19:59:07 well then, i usually try to figure out if there has been some form of inspiration for this 19:59:31 i try to find the use for what i'm doing, and then express the gist of that 19:59:32 i'm thinking maybe bonsai but that's a very tenuous link 19:59:37 (bonsai trees are small, my software is small!) 19:59:44 seems almost like i should save that name for something better. 20:00:00 no, that's not great 20:00:14 what software are you trying to name? 20:00:17 what does it do? 20:00:48 it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things) 20:00:56 primarily the byproduct of my serve NIH syndrome 20:03:18 cheater99: thinking about it, bonsai has a more tenuous link -- the links of pages to each other sort of form a branching tree 20:03:26 it's a graph, but whatever, you can imagine a link visualisation as a tree 20:04:11 you've got a problem i see in many coders right now 20:04:19 you are thinking of the code and not about what it does 20:04:32 i was doing a code review with this girl last friday 20:04:34 you mean i'm thinking too technically? dude, it's for my own use. 20:04:38 and i ask her what the application does 20:04:50 so she says "the calculation class blah blah blah" 20:04:50 here's what it does: it maintains a website. 20:04:57 it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things) 20:05:00 that's pretty non-codey 20:05:03 so i tell her ok, but i don't want to know about that, i want to know what the application is for 20:05:24 "yes, you build up a configuration object and then pass it and blah blah blah" 20:05:27 so i tell her 20:05:33 yes, i get it 20:05:35 no, i don't want to know about any classes 20:05:53 on the most basic level, what does the application do, in the eyes of a user? 20:06:03 "it is a collection of form text input fields." 20:06:07 . . . 20:06:11 i stopped asking 20:06:27 :D 20:06:30 but seriously, i didn't do that. 20:06:45 yeah 20:06:52 just sayin' 20:06:59 and besides 20:07:09 what's the difference if it's for your own use or for someone else's use? 20:07:20 there are big benefits to keeping projects public-ready 20:07:27 1. it makes you finish them so they work 20:07:40 2. it makes you write the important bits like manuals etc which makes you actually rethink usefulness 20:07:52 3. it makes you package it nicely even if for your own use (useful down the line) 20:08:01 4. it makes you think differently about what's necessary 20:09:53 cheater99: yeah, uh, you're no fun at all. 20:11:53 i kno :( 20:12:10 so this is a personal wiki only/ 20:12:11 ? 20:12:17 uni-user? 20:12:27 or rather monouser 20:14:13 cheater99: yes 20:14:26 cheater99: but infinite readers 20:14:31 well 20:14:41 so you've got a set of information which you maintain 20:14:45 as your own brain map 20:14:56 i already know what i want it to do 20:14:58 i just want to name it. 20:14:58 like wolfram's brain? 20:15:04 is that it? 20:15:05 i'm guessing 20:15:42 cheater99: not really 20:15:50 it's just a website with an edit button for one person :P 20:15:55 but you're the only maintainer 20:16:02 and you make it nice and fine for yourself 20:16:18 others can look at it but you're the only one who builds it and understands it 20:16:31 that's a real connotation with a banzai 20:16:39 "banzai" does not mean what you think it is 20:16:41 since every banzai belongs to only one person 20:16:49 banzai tree ? 20:16:52 it means "ten thousand years". 20:16:54 you mean "bonsai". 20:17:04 yes 20:17:30 i have misspelled it because xchat underlined bonzai and not banzai :( 20:18:40 that's because it's bonsai 20:18:44 the more you know =========++* 20:18:46 *no +s 20:19:16 anyway bonsai it is then :P 20:19:22 now for the even harder part, deciding a language! 20:19:26 can you tell i never get anything done? 20:20:49 haskell 20:20:57 ftfy 20:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:22:56 cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) 20:23:04 very good 20:23:08 now appreciate it practically 20:23:11 and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed 20:23:16 i am now a lot less disturbed 20:23:35 Oh, no, we aren't on a Haskell vs C slanging match, are we? 20:23:37 ugh, how do you figure out your dns server now? 20:23:41 Phantom_Hoover: nope 20:23:45 cheater99 is on the haskell side 20:23:55 i'm on my own side 20:24:06 ( cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed i am now a lot less disturbed) 20:24:17 cheater99: /etc/resolv.conf? 20:24:20 alise: write it in something that has a natural impedance match for that 20:24:32 cheater99: wonderful advice; useless, of course, but... 20:24:34 Why did you go crazy enough to forget type systems? 20:24:40 I might write it in rc :) 20:24:46 i.e. natural graph structures, and taxonomies 20:24:47 Phantom_Hoover: because the things you see... in type theory... they scare you 20:24:51 Did you believe only in category theory? 20:24:52 you can never truly be whole again 20:25:07 alise, what, you mean undecidable types? 20:25:11 Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah you start becoming convinced that you should base a computational model on category theory 20:25:13 rather than type theory 20:25:21 that's usually when the cluster headaches start 20:25:26 alise: that file seems to work 20:25:34 does it get automagically updated by dialup software? 20:25:37 What kind of awful things are there in type theory? 20:25:44 cheater99: DHCP will update it (I forget the client name) 20:25:50 so yes probably 20:26:05 cheater99: you may simply want to remove all write bits from the file if the dialup thing does it 20:26:08 cheater99: here NetworkManager sets it 20:26:15 cheater99: btw NetworkManager can connect to a lot of 3G modems 20:26:20 to avoid the shitty dialup software 20:26:21 highly recommended 20:26:40 Ubuntu, at least, has a nice wizard for it 20:26:43 if you go to edit connections 20:26:51 i bet you can set a custom dns server after that too 20:29:13 Dammit I want to know the forbidden secrets of type theory alise. 20:29:22 Phantom_Hoover: IA IA IA 20:29:32 Insert Zalgo 20:29:37 You forgot the diæreses! 20:29:50 IÄ IÄ IÄ! 20:29:55 Better! 20:31:19 I wish wiki syntaxes sucked less. 20:31:24 Solution: MAKE THEM SUCK LESS 20:31:44 Which sucks more: PMWiki markup or MediaWiki markup? 20:31:47 {tag ...} is a tag. Maybe I'll have keyword arguments. 20:31:52 alise: hmm 20:32:01 Phantom_Hoover: If a tree falls in a forest and noöne is around to hear it? 20:32:06 alise: i should try it then 20:32:21 cheater99: what distro? 20:32:25 alise, do you not know PMWiki markup? 20:32:28 ubuntu! 20:33:13 cheater99: uninstall crappy dialup software, right click network icon, edit connections, mobile broadband, add, hope for the best 20:33:20 it has a surprising range of support 20:33:22 and usually Just Works 20:33:49 Phantom_Hoover: Indeed not. 20:33:56 Phantom_Hoover: But I was implying their equal shittiness. 20:33:56 It's what TV Tropes uses. 20:34:05 Yeah. 20:34:08 I've edited TV Tropes exactly once. 20:34:19 Well, at least MediaWiki doesn't have 4 different kinds of link formats. 20:34:32 *internal link formats. 20:34:33 When you go to edit it tells you not to say This Troper on the article page because they're making the pages not discussions any more. 20:34:38 Which is Wikipedian bullshit. 20:34:49 Clearly they have never browsed WardsWiki. 20:35:22 The discussion does get a little out of hand in both places... 20:35:24 alise: i don't think i need to uninstall crappy dialup software 20:35:36 alise: btw, i have ditched network manager for wicd 20:35:40 cheater99: if it's handling connections you probably do. 20:35:42 network manager was cancer for me 20:35:46 cheater99: also, i doubt wicd can do this. 20:35:48 so your loss 20:35:51 yeah 20:35:57 cheater99: networkmanager works fine :P 20:35:57 but nm was very very bad for me 20:36:04 better than shitty dialup software for sure 20:36:05 the wifi was dying all the time with nm 20:36:16 this ain't wifi 20:36:53 cheater99: anyway just make your changes to /etc/resolv.conf, -w it 20:36:54 done 20:37:03 yeah 20:37:20 i set up djbdns on my pc 20:37:25 let's see how it works with retries 20:37:52 cheater99: djb software is great if you already have djb software, otherwise it brings along a lot of /services stuff :D 20:38:14 i have had it installed already 20:38:16 funnily enough 20:38:26 (i go through the package manager and install 100s of packages.) 20:38:32 ew 20:38:34 :P 20:38:55 it's great because it shows you software you never thought existed 20:39:14 i don't want to know about more software, the existing set gives me enough pain :) 20:39:20 alise are you into audio stuff at all? 20:39:28 specify further 20:40:16 well, making/recording music 20:40:21 and sounds 20:40:43 i'd like to do it, but i have no particular talent for it. 20:40:58 define "have no particular talent" 20:40:58 i have discovered this lack of talent an amusing number of times, and like to blame software for it. 20:41:10 cheater99: i have no particular inspiration for what to do to produce pleasing sounds. 20:41:24 ah 20:41:27 that comes with practice 20:41:37 but it's not that difficult 20:41:43 cheater99: i also have the extreme lack of patience to learn, say, an instrument. 20:42:09 I love the way Look Around You lapses into horror at random. 20:42:11 it doesn't have to be about mastering finger techniques 20:42:17 Phantom_Hoover: which episode? 20:42:26 the cool thing about this stuff is that there's a lot of technology backing it 20:42:33 and a lot about it is highly esoteric 20:42:37 Calcium specifically, but the Boîte Diabolique also counts. 20:42:47 Phantom_Hoover: The Helvetica scenario. 20:42:56 Indeed. 20:43:00 cheater99: i have this wonderful plan to create a wonderful music-composition software based on vague bits of interacting code; it will never happen 20:43:10 VwumVweeeeeeeeeee...VwumVweeeeeeeeeeeee 20:43:19 cellular automaton music has been done to death 20:43:23 cheater99: not that 20:43:36 imagine a typical horizontal-is-time, vertical-is-tracks thing, but instead of waveforms it's little snippets of code 20:43:51 and there's a huge library of, say, sine waves, midi, raw waveform, etc. functions 20:43:58 you've just described a tracker 20:44:01 and filters that do effects and the like 20:44:03 and you stack them with code 20:44:12 cheater99: i've never seen anyone input code into a tracker 20:44:21 screamtracker 20:44:25 well it's very simple code 20:44:33 it's just a few most important things 20:44:35 yeah, the code i'm thinking of isn't :P 20:44:45 you'd have, say, a whole "riff" in one block of code 20:45:07 yes 20:45:28 cheater99: it also doesn't help that simple music bores me 20:45:29 cellular automaton music has been done to death ← it has? 20:45:33 you can do this stuff in uh.. 20:45:35 what's the name 20:45:39 and making boring things bores me even more than consuming them. 20:45:43 Phantom_Hoover: yes, even by wolfram 20:45:44 it sucks 20:46:04 cmusic? something like that 20:46:04 How does it work? 20:46:06 c-something 20:46:10 chuck? 20:46:15 but i know there's another c- thin 20:46:17 alise: no 20:46:19 cheater99: and if you've ever tried creating might be 20:46:19 c-sound 20:46:20 erm 20:46:21 that's it 20:46:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMusic 20:46:39 i mean c-sound 20:46:49 cheater99: most music composition software is ridiculously complex, i've noticed 20:47:01 five billion twiddle knobs, five billion preferences behind it, five billion different modes... 20:47:04 cmusic is the max/msp predecessor isn't it? 20:47:16 yes 20:47:21 music software is generally gay 20:47:23 (also: interfaces that look like real equipment and have stupid knobs and shit MAKE ME FUCKING RAGE) 20:47:30 And none of it implements the Boîtes Diabolique. 20:47:31 it's all like ms word 20:47:32 (MY COMPUTER DOES NOT FUCKING WORK LIKE THAT FUCK YOU) 20:47:40 if you want a nice vim based build system, you don't get shit. 20:48:01 xD 20:48:02 alise, you expect *musicians* to be able to competently use a well-designed UI? 20:48:06 I think not. 20:48:08 Phantom_Hoover: Um. 20:48:18 If a musician can use Ableton. 20:48:24 Then that musician can use literally any interface known to man. 20:48:34 Ableton is the *craziest freaking thing* ever. 20:48:34 20:48:50 Not even Reason is that bad. 20:49:07 cheater99: Maybe I'll get ahold of the original Atari ST version of Logic :) 20:49:08 i tried getting a job at ableton 20:49:11 My father has that. 20:49:14 And an Atari to run it on! 20:49:28 they replied with a code excercise 20:49:28 i replied with code 20:49:32 Something happened last night 20:49:37 (in python, which they wanted) 20:49:42 (He now does music using Logic Studio on Windows Me. No joke.) 20:49:46 they replied that my code is not up to their quality standards 20:49:57 i had someone at PSF check that code and find no problems with it 20:50:00 My dad said that if it weren't for him visiting the hospital where my step-mother's mom was, she would have died due to incompetent care 20:50:03 I WIN 20:50:09 I wonder if maybe I should become a doctor 20:50:40 I don't like the thought of other people's lives being in my hands, but if I displace someone who might be less competent, it's a net win I think 20:50:48 alise: tell him to start using sonar 20:50:56 alise: it's the nicest thing for windoze 20:50:59 cheater99: i'm not on speaking terms with my father. 20:51:05 alise: :( 20:51:20 alise: he uses windows me. i wouldn't talk to him either : P 20:51:27 also, he still uses Me because he never saw a reason to upgrade. also Cool Edit Pro and Sound Forge 20:51:32 so i doubt he will ever change his setup, ever 20:51:40 sound forge ain't so bad 20:51:45 cheater99: *old* sound forge 20:51:47 all the software is old 20:51:53 * Phantom_Hoover takes a look at Ableton's interface. 20:51:58 there's a point to "it works" though 20:51:58 My god... I am humbled. 20:52:08 Phantom_Hoover: wat 20:52:10 yeah 20:52:12 ableton's interface is fairly shit 20:52:18 Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse when you can click on it 20:52:26 see, the simplistic interface you normally see 20:52:29 is the one for retards 20:52:35 you can't tweak anything despite it being almost impossible to use 20:52:36 -!- Flonk has joined. 20:52:38 what's worst is that they're trying to be a dj/live production thing 20:52:41 but they suck at dj 20:52:43 so you get to enter the even worse parts of the interface 20:52:43 they suck at live 20:52:46 and they suck at production 20:52:50 cheater99: Autechre use Ableton in live performances 20:52:59 which, uh, props to them because that shit sounds painfully impossible to me 20:53:17 wonder if they use max/msp live too 20:53:24 HOW FAST CAN I MOVE THIS MOUSE TO THIS TEXT BOX AND TWEAK THE VALUE 20:53:25 autechre is not something i'd consider an influence to myself 20:53:33 autechre are awesome 20:53:41 you know what's awesome? 20:53:54 when i turn up the resonance knob, my tb303's sequencer slows down 20:53:55 Look Around You? 20:53:57 No. 20:54:01 because the batteries are half empty. 20:54:04 that's awesome. 20:54:05 O GOD I AM BECOMING SGEO 20:54:07 cheater99: http://dailyjs.com/images/posts/autechre.jpg <-- Max/MSP patches by Autechre 20:54:10 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:54:11 Why does it have a colour picker? I DON'T KNOW 20:54:24 i've done better 20:54:32 KILL ME WHILE I STILL HAVE SOME HOOVERITY LEFT 20:54:35 Phantom_Hoover, how so? 20:55:06 Phantom_Hoover: Name a language! 20:55:19 Come to think of it, I basically want Logo with a bit more syntactic sugar. ...wait, I just said I want REBOL. 20:55:19 i've done patches full of text entry boxes 20:55:21 I TAKE IT BACK I TAKE IT 20:55:25 and that's across like 3 screens. 20:55:32 alise, Nemerle! 20:55:39 cheater99: but what that outputs probably counts as music to most people >:) 20:55:42 (yours, that is) 20:55:54 Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of Nemerle whatsoever. 20:55:55 actually 20:55:57 Æ TRANSCEND YOUR MERE PERCEPTIONS OF MUSIC 20:56:01 it was an additive synthesizer 20:56:14 for researching on inharmonic spectra 20:56:25 which is very important to the musicality of computer music 20:56:48 once electronic instruments can reliably generate inharmonic spectra, the world of electronic music will change forever 20:57:24 that made no sense to me at all. 20:58:26 99.99999999999999999999% of all sounds generated with electronic means are either noise, or harmonic spectra, or derivations from those, or recordings. 20:58:56 i like noise. 20:59:00 so what's inharmonic spectra 20:59:11 if you have a sound, it has partials 20:59:26 alise, I think it's something to do with its timbre. 20:59:43 According to the first result on Google. 20:59:46 the frequency and the loudness envelope of these partials is called the spectrum 20:59:55 it can be seen with a spectrograph 20:59:59 cheater99, is that correct? 21:00:05 yes 21:00:34 So real instruments produce harmonic spectra, while computers produce inharmonic ones? 21:00:35 most sounds generated with syntesizers have harmonic spectra 21:00:46 Oh, other way round? 21:01:15 Makes sense. 21:02:31 harmonic spectrum = repeating waveform 21:02:36 basically 21:02:50 a piano is stretched-harmonic. it is a special type of inharmonicity. 21:04:55 you have an almost-harmonic spectrum, except 21:05:04 So electronic music is too precise, or what? 21:05:48 in a harmonic spectrum, the frequencies of partials are 1f, 2f, 3f, ... 21:06:07 in a stretched-harmonic spectrum it's 1af, 2af, 3af, 4af, ... 21:06:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]). 21:06:21 where a > 1 21:06:34 (of course you can also try a <1 and it'll sound nice too) 21:06:53 i think for a piano a is around between 1.001 and 1.1, not sure 21:06:58 WHY DOESN'T THIS HAVE AN OBVIOUS ANSWER 21:07:15 -!- tombom has joined. 21:07:18 alise: ? 21:07:21 Different instruments have different spectra 21:07:30 well 21:07:43 Computers have different types of spectra to real instruments. 21:07:46 i find that it's mostly about the "a" rather than the levels 21:08:11 I think that's basically it. 21:08:42 Oh, and cheater99 plans to discover how to generate inharmonic spectra with a computer and make 5 billion currencies. 21:10:45 yes 21:11:05 it is currently not being achieved on a computer 21:11:14 Why? 21:11:16 it is a very difficult problem computationally 21:11:23 the additive method needs umpteens of partials 21:11:42 and the physical method (simulate a string with weight) is out of reach 21:11:46 (that i know of) 21:13:49 And wind instruments? 21:13:49 Phantom_Hoover: >SPIT OUT RANDOM LANGUAGE 21:14:02 I already spat out Nemerle. 21:14:19 * Phantom_Hoover plays the flute and is constantly confused by the keyings for notes. 21:14:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:16:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:17:13 hi ais523! 21:17:29 ais523: name a (non-eso) language, please 21:18:24 alise: Perl 21:18:27 alise, WHAT, NEMERLE NOT RANDOM ENOUGH 21:18:30 wait, you said non-eso 21:18:31 *? 21:18:34 umm, ADA 21:19:10 ais523: okay, non-eso but including Perl and languages of similar esoity; can i have another? 21:19:12 Also, it's Ada. 21:19:24 alise: but the entire language is in allcaps 21:19:29 alise: m4 21:19:34 ada? 21:19:36 no it isn't 21:19:47 Factor 21:19:48 ais523: err, ok, strengthen non-eso constraint a bit more 21:19:49 alise: actually, I think it's case-insensitive 21:19:54 with Ada.Text_IO; 21:19:55 21:19:55 procedure Hello is 21:19:55 begin 21:19:55 Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line("Hello, world!"); 21:19:55 end Hello; 21:19:57 but all the Ada code I've seen has been in allcaps 21:20:01 C# 21:20:15 alise, Prolog. 21:20:20 LSL 21:20:25 conclusion: on average, a randomly-picked language is not suitable for your project 21:20:35 alise: I agree 21:20:38 PRO. LOG. 21:20:46 this is why I don't use the same lang for everything 21:20:59 alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. 21:21:00 OTOH, there's generally more than one lang suitable for any given project 21:21:25 Objective C. 21:21:33 Objective C++! 21:21:35 D! 21:22:37 hmm, does objective C++ actually exist? 21:23:21 I've seen in mentioned in OS X docs. 21:23:36 I can't remember if it was actually a langage. 21:23:38 alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. ;; wat? 21:23:42 *language. 21:23:43 ais523: yes, for compatibility 21:23:46 with C++ libs 21:23:47 ah, OK 21:23:58 I couldn't think of a plausible reason for it to exist, but that's one 21:25:39 wow, DNS root server H was down for around 18 hours 21:25:50 and that's the one owned by the US Army 21:26:00 how reassuring! 21:26:00 the root servers going down is pretty rare... 21:26:09 It's the terrists. 21:26:19 Obviously the nuclear holocaust is mere hours away. 21:27:23 * Phantom_Hoover continues thinking about graph-based esolangs. 21:27:30 Phantom_Hoover: oklopol 21:27:45 Graphica 21:27:49 Am I an oklo? 21:27:51 Eodermdrome 21:28:02 Phantom_Hoover: oklopol's Graphica and ais523 's Eodermdrome 21:28:30 Link? 21:29:12 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt is so useless words fail me. 21:29:13 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt 21:29:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome 21:29:30 Phantom_Hoover: there are also some vjn.fi/pb links by oklopol with graphica code in them in the logs 21:30:05 WHY NOT READ OKLOTALK-- CODE INSTEAD 21:30:06 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt 21:30:10 BECAUSE THE LISTS ARE MINE 21:30:37 IIRC, Eodermdrome still hasn't been implemented 21:30:45 although someone (oerjan?) wrote a program in it to prove TCness 21:31:00 What languages would be good for graph manipulation? 21:31:14 My brain has failed me on this. 21:31:20 ais523: oerjan, yeah 21:32:34 <-- (greater/less) (or equal to/than) --> 21:32:37 -- oklotalk--.txt 21:32:37 lol 21:33:53 Phantom_Hoover: this is probably why eodermdrome wasn't implemented 21:34:00 because nobody can think of a lang that's remotely good to implement it in 21:34:26 I've seen some snippets of graphy code in Prolog... 21:34:44 (A fact represents a connection betwixt nodes.) 21:34:56 Phantom_Hoover: you could also just have 21:34:58 arc(a,b) 21:35:07 and e.g. value(a,42). 21:35:08 But Prolog doesn't like interfacing with the outside world very much. 21:35:17 Phantom_Hoover: it does it alright... 21:35:21 alise, that is the point. 21:35:36 Phantom_Hoover: i thought you meant like 21:35:36 a(b) 21:35:38 is arc(a,b) 21:35:39 which is bizarre 21:35:41 Presumably asserts would be used to parse 21:35:45 alise, of course not. 21:35:49 yeah, and dynamic 21:35:50 did it have 21:35:55 arc(A,B) :- arc(B,A). 21:35:57 ? 21:36:00 or was it directional 21:36:13 I think it was. 21:36:18 But we can do it that way. 21:36:28 bah markup formats suck! 21:37:57 Phantom_Hoover: I love the Prolog pathfinding code: 21:37:59 path(A, B) :- arc(A, B). 21:38:00 path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B). 21:38:34 Prolog is cool; this is indisputable. 21:38:47 Utterly impractical, but so, so cool. 21:40:19 * alise debugs his path *recording* code 21:41:15 | ?- find_path(a,d,R). 21:41:15 R = [[a|d]] ? ; (forever) 21:41:18 that should not happen... 21:41:23 find_path(A, B, [[A|B]]) :- arc(A, B). 21:41:23 find_path(A, B, [[A|C]|R]) :- 21:41:23 find_path(A, C, R1), 21:41:23 find_path(C, B, R2), 21:41:23 append(R1, R2, R). 21:41:44 alise 21:42:01 is she cute http://tinyurl.com/2vqdepz 21:42:24 sheesh, i was even being on-topic 21:42:31 (Prolog counts as esoteric, right?) 21:42:40 not trying hard enough 21:42:59 it has existed for more than 1 year 21:43:02 AND has more than 100 users 21:43:06 :-/ 21:44:14 i'm not sure anyone really uses prolog. 21:44:16 prolog uses them. 21:45:35 How would one delete nodes for this? 21:45:56 Phantom_Hoover: retract 21:45:59 Presumably you would need to deassert every arc containing them. 21:46:09 alise: it's not nice to not answer questions :( 21:46:12 ohh, wait, my path code is right 21:46:21 since it's not directional 21:46:29 cheater99: why are you asking, why me, and why in here? 21:46:40 alise, assert(arc(a,b)). 21:46:45 retract(a). 21:46:51 arc(a,b). 21:47:07 Still true. 21:47:13 alise: because i wonder what you think! 21:47:19 Phantom_Hoover: reatract(arc(a,b)) 21:47:21 *retract 21:47:22 durr 21:47:25 just randomly 21:47:26 cheater99: why? 21:47:33 (you were the first person i saw talking on irc) 21:47:45 alise, see /msg 21:47:59 | ?- path(a,x). 21:47:59 Fatal Error: local stack overflow (size: 8192 Kb, environment variable used: LOCALSZ) 21:48:28 Is there actually a way of getting away with non-tail recursion? 21:48:40 sure 21:48:42 path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B), !. 21:49:01 I meant generally. 21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:49:32 | ?- find_path(a, d, R). 21:49:32 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:49:40 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:49:43 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:49:43 lol 21:50:32 Phantom_Hoover: there's also retractall 21:50:34 http://bulba.sdsu.edu/prolog/parsing/recursion_and_assertion.htm 21:50:47 alise, retract(arc(a,X)). 21:50:55 Phantom_Hoover: retractall 21:51:00 retractall(arc(a,_)). 21:51:26 I see no particular difference there... 21:52:17 Gyah, I've forgotten what cut does. 21:53:09 Phantom_Hoover: forgets about all backtracking opportunities 21:53:15 won't go back before the cut 21:53:19 and if it fails after that, it'll just fail. 21:53:49 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:53:49 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:53:49 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:53:49 Incidentally, your thing to make arcs undirected obviously leads to an infinite loop. 21:53:49 um 21:53:58 that seems incredibly messy 21:54:01 Vorpal: it's just paths... 21:54:05 alise, ah 21:54:14 alise, thought you had written code like that :P 21:55:32 If I have an account on LTSP and it log in using the Ubuntu GUI, how to set environment variables global to the account? 21:55:53 zzo38: .profile 21:56:41 LTSP? 21:56:46 Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account? 21:56:47 that sounds familiar 21:56:50 what was it now again 21:57:03 Linux Terminal Server Project 21:58:10 hm so thin clients? 21:58:12 okay 21:59:28 Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account? 21:59:30 .xinitrc too 21:59:36 if you use X 21:59:47 ais523, did you ever actually write down Eodermdrone's command set? 22:00:18 I wrote it on the wiki, didn't I? 22:00:36 yep 22:00:37 Not as far as I can see... 22:00:39 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome 22:00:50 it doesn't actually have any commands, that's a complete description of how it works 22:00:56 Oh, I kind of see it. 22:00:59 what makes you think all esolangs have to be based on commands? 22:01:05 It is X; that is what the terminal loads. It uses the graphical login screen and then loads that account in the X session (I think it is the GNOME session). I configured my account to start the bash terminal window at login, but I don't know how to make it automatically maximize the window. 22:02:03 ais523, no, I just skimmed the syntax section. 22:02:19 So I assumed that there was a predefined command set. 22:04:39 So, do I start on the parser or the interpreter? 22:05:53 what parser? 22:06:01 Everything seems much less crashy without Compiz 22:06:19 alise, for Eodermdrome. 22:06:28 Phantom_Hoover: what parser? 22:06:47 The one that goes from list of characters to assertions in Prolog. 22:06:57 *a list 22:07:17 Phantom_Hoover: using dcgs i hope 22:07:55 Distributed Common Ground Systems? 22:07:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Parser_example 22:09:13 Is theree a way to disable all of the options in the menu and use .xinitrc instead? 22:09:22 zzo38: maybe. 22:09:26 maybe not. 22:10:17 O, it says graphical login manager do not use .xinitrc it says I need .xsession instead. 22:10:58 -!- augur has joined. 22:11:31 It took way too long for Akinator to guess "Yes-man" "Some Guy Who Always Presses "Yes"" 22:15:32 (Also, I do not have administrative privilege on that computer) 22:16:03 Languages suck. 22:17:42 ais523: Please make a language that doesn't suck. 22:19:07 Why do they suck this time? 22:19:36 All reasons! 22:20:02 Let's focus on a specific area. 22:20:11 Why do arithmetic operators suck? 22:21:43 Because. 22:23:20 What sucks about the + operator? 22:23:25 EVERYTHING 22:23:35 alise, such as? 22:23:37 it requires multithreading to implement efficiently in INTERCAL 22:23:43 ais523: yes, that. 22:23:44 alise, what? +? 22:23:49 err 22:23:50 ais523, ^ 22:24:05 Vorpal: two threads; one to do the addition, the other to check when it's finished 22:24:10 ais523, haha 22:24:22 ais523, is that what the standard library does? 22:24:27 no, it uses a less efficient version 22:24:31 no threading in the stdlib 22:24:36 ais523, but you optimise it? 22:24:38 iirc 22:24:47 it doesn't optimise all the way down to addition 22:24:55 alise, INTERCAL doesn't suck! 22:24:55 ais523, oh? why not? 22:24:57 (unless you link a stdlib written in C rather than INTERCAL) 22:25:00 hm 22:25:04 Vorpal: because it only optimises individual statements 22:25:08 Nor does dc! 22:25:12 and INTERCAL addition requires a loop (or a very very very large expression) 22:25:14 ais523, ah 22:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash 22:25:39 I think the stdlib version loops once per bit 22:25:47 I think the stdlib version loops once per bit 2010-10-03: 00:01:38 yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit <-- well strictly speaking i only realized it after putting it into HackEgo 00:05:05 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:05:23 -!- augur has joined. 00:05:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:15:42 argh the logs cut off about an hour and a half ago <-- someone mail the guy to fix clog, it's broken 00:15:50 oerjan, you do it 00:15:55 oerjan, I don't have his mail 00:16:07 neither do i 00:16:15 who do then 00:16:17 does* 00:16:33 for instance, for a while there was a standard request for passengers to shift their weight to the left, because otherwise the doors wouldn't close <-- awesome 00:16:53 * Sgeo doesn't particularly have much weight to shift 00:17:05 * Sgeo is 111 lbs last he checked 00:17:32 Sgeo, what is that in the SI system units? 00:17:53 Vorpal: ~50kg 00:18:00 ah 00:18:05 that's tiny indeed 00:18:11 * Vorpal is closer to 85 kg 00:18:18 but then I'm tall 00:18:27 * pikhq is something like 80kg 00:18:36 pikhq, 189.5 cm 00:18:59 Vorpal: 180 cm or so 00:19:08 ah, so you are short :P 00:19:14 (well not really) 00:19:26 For certain definitions of "short", perhaps. Ones set by giants, for instance. 00:19:39 pikhq, indeed! 00:20:05 pikhq, I wish I had grown to 190 cm. 189.5 is *soo close* 00:20:09 it is annoying me 00:20:41 What annoys me is non-SI units. 00:21:14 Especially ambiguous ones. 00:21:57 A pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold. 00:22:02 Why! 00:23:06 pikhq, what 00:23:20 pikhq, what about a pound of pounds? 00:23:22 A pound of feathers is 454g. A pound of gold is 373g. 00:23:25 does that count as gold? 00:23:44 Because precious metals are measured in troy weights, not avoirdupois weights. 00:23:50 But both use the same names for their units. 00:24:38 pikhq, "avoirdupois weights" <-- really? is it different from normal pounds of other stuff? 00:25:06 The avoirdupois system of weight units is the typical one. 00:25:13 Troy is used for precious metals. 00:26:13 ah 00:26:13 But, an ounce of feathers is lighter than an ounce of gold. 00:26:46 28 g and 31g, respectively. 00:27:02 pikhq, is this what you use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_mass_units_graph.svg 00:27:20 16 avoirdupois ounces to the avoirdupois pound, 12 troy ounces to the troy pound. 00:27:23 Uuugggh. 00:28:17 haha 00:28:40 Vorpal: Yes, except that ony avoirdupois and troy units are in common use today, and the grain, scruple, pennyweight, shilling, mark, dram, clove, nail, stone, quarter, tod, hundredweight, and sack are obnoxious archaicisms in the US. 00:29:02 pikhq, :D 00:29:19 pikhq, you should start using those, just to annoy people. With metric prefixes 00:29:26 The kilograin? :D 00:29:27 like a kiloclove 00:29:34 pikhq, or that! 00:29:56 Vorpal: Oh, it gets worse. The ounce is also a couple units of volume. 00:30:02 heh 00:30:08 what is the mark? 00:30:14 about how large is it in metric units 00:30:32 Vorpal: An ounce of water != 1 ounce of ice, in volume. 00:30:42 I have no mental picture of the magnitude of these units 00:30:53 which i do have for the SI system 00:31:33 pikhq, "decisack", the word is awesome 00:32:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:33:04 Vorpal: Because the fluid ounce is 29.5 ml, and the dry ounce is 31 ml. 00:33:12 ugh 00:33:18 pikhq, why on earth 00:33:19 (note: dry units of volume not in common use) 00:33:31 (aside from the peck & the bushel) 00:33:43 "peck & the bushel"? 00:34:06 Used for measuring agricultural yields. 00:34:13 heh 00:34:17 For instance, bushels of wheat, pecks of fruit. 00:34:26 pikhq, iirc mostly m^3 here 00:35:00 Oh, and a barrel of oil is not the same volume as a barrel of water, which is not the same volume as a barrel of wheat. 00:35:13 158L, 119L, 115L, respectively. 00:35:23 wtf 00:35:28 pikhq, you are so crazy 00:35:36 why do you keep using that system 00:35:44 Vorpal: People claim it makes more sense. 00:35:47 Honest to God. 00:36:08 Oh, also: 1 mile on land is not the same distance as a mile on sea. 00:36:30 pikhq, yes but people write "nautical mile" when they mean it 00:36:31 1.6km and 1.8km, respectively. 00:36:34 they don't call it mile 00:36:39 True, but still. 00:36:55 at least in aviation nm is used as the unit on instruments and such 00:36:59 which is kind of fun 00:37:05 since it is not nanometer 00:37:10 but nautical mile 00:38:34 I should note that there is no convenient conversion between cubic inches & units of volume. 00:39:01 only to be expected with a system that wasn't designed but grew over time 00:39:06 (unlike how 1L = 1dm) 00:39:29 There *is* an easy conversion between units of volume and masses of water, though. 00:39:47 1 fl oz. of water is about 1 oz. of water 00:39:59 (it used to be exact before redefining the units in terms of SI) 00:39:59 "about" 00:40:05 ah 00:41:21 Much like how 1L used to be 1kg of water before the SI units were defined more exactly. 00:42:17 indeed 00:42:21 Oh, you want even more of a headache? 00:42:32 heh, go ahead 00:42:44 Each Commonwealth nation using customary units has their own definitions of them. 00:43:11 Oh, s/Commonweatlh/ 00:43:12 how nice 00:43:15 Erm. Anyways. 00:43:40 A tablespoon in Canada is 15ml. In US, 14.79ml. According to the FDA (a US government agency), 15ml. In Australia, 20ml. 00:44:00 A US gallon is 3785ml. A UK gallon is 4546ml. 00:44:20 that's quite a large difference 00:45:02 Fortunately, the length and weight units were fixed by international treaty, so the only distinctions there are land/nautical and avoirdupois/troy. 00:45:35 btw, I should start using kiloseconds, it makes a lot more sense than minutes and hours 00:45:57 ... No, wait, the weight units are *almost* the same. A UK hundredweight is 112lb, and a US hundredweight is 100lb. 00:46:17 And in both, a ton is 20 hundredweights. 00:46:22 So close and yet so far. 00:46:33 pikhq, over here a ton is 1000 kg. And a mile is 10 km 00:46:44 Vorpal: That's the metric ton. 00:46:46 :) 00:46:52 pikhq, and a scandinavian mile 00:46:59 The Us also uses metric tons. 00:47:24 The only thing we abhor more than sane units is consistent units! 00:48:20 pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile 00:48:28 quite a nice unit, if anyone else used it 00:48:40 it is a nice size to be useful 00:48:48 Quite a reasonable unit. 00:48:52 indeed 00:49:02 pikhq, and useful on the distances found in Sweden 00:49:07 Even if it is hectometer. 00:49:17 like, two mil to university for me 00:49:19 Erm. 00:49:20 Megameter. 00:49:21 or about that 00:49:24 The data on my HD is degrading as we speak? 00:49:32 Erm. 00:49:34 THINK JOSIAH 00:49:44 DONT FUCKING SCREW UP POWERS OF 10 00:49:54 You have: 10 km 00:49:54 You want: megameter 00:49:54 * 0.01 00:49:54 And don't yell at me, yell at my dad on my behalf please 00:50:15 Why aren't there SI prefixes for every power of 10 in a useful range? 00:50:20 You have: 10 km 00:50:20 You want: hectometer 00:50:20 * 100 00:50:59 pikhq, because um, imagine having name for everything between giga and yotta, instad of just a few 00:51:11 pikhq, result: even sillier names than "yotta" 00:51:11 Vorpal: It's powers of 1000. 00:51:17 and that would be bad 00:52:04 Anyways. 00:52:11 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:52:32 * oerjan points out that nautical mile actually _is_ a logical unit. well approximately. 00:52:46 oerjan, oh? 00:52:54 Vorpal: It gets worse if you start trying to do physics using traditional units. 00:53:07 Sweden used to use metric units for flight, we don't any longer because no one else does 00:53:18 it's originally the length of one minute of arc of a meridian, useful for sea maps 00:53:22 you can always combine deka/deci and hecto/centi with the standard prefixes 00:53:27 basically it screwed up for altitude calculations with about everyone else 00:53:59 oh Soviet was completely metric too 00:54:04 for flight 00:54:11 but that was about it 00:54:25 olsner: by "you can always" you mean "it's not actually permitted to" afaik 00:54:44 oerjan, dekakilometer? 00:54:45 XD 00:54:55 Vorpal: ft^2°Fh/BTU, anyone? 00:54:56 not actually permitted? who has the power to forbid this? 00:54:58 or kilodekameter perhaps 00:55:01 pikhq, what? 00:55:21 it's not part of the standard, anyway 00:55:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:55:40 Vorpal: That's a unit of thermal resistance. The foot-squared degree Fahrenheit hour per British Thermal Unit. 00:55:59 pikhq, still flight use two units of pressure, and instruments are commonly marked with both SI units (hPa iirc) and inHg 00:56:15 pikhq, what is the SI unit for it? 00:56:22 Km^2/W 00:56:24 ah 00:56:45 pikhq, what is "British Thermal Unit" exactly? 00:57:17 1055.056 J 00:57:21 aha 00:57:25 how silly 00:57:40 pikhq, now if SI could just get rid of the kg prototype 00:57:46 (1055.05585262 in the UK) 00:57:56 define it in terms of some natural constants or such 00:58:08 it's the heat production corresponding to one second of british parliament discussion 00:58:12 like has been done for all the other prototypes 00:58:50 pikhq, shouldn't "British termal unit" refer to UK always? 00:58:55 Vorpal: Nope! 00:58:59 That would make sense! 00:59:02 I mean, "UK British termal unit" is absurd 00:59:05 Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think 00:59:13 augur_: No, it's the remaining prototype. 00:59:19 really 00:59:20 interesting 00:59:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 00:59:37 There's currently debate over what possible replacement definition to use. 01:00:16 The ones I like most involve defining the Avogadro constant exactly. 01:03:39 number of atoms in a standard avocado 01:05:40 > iterate exp (-1/0) 01:05:41 [-Infinity,0.0,1.0,2.718281828459045,15.154262241479262,3814279.104760214,I... 01:06:02 pikhq: do you have any interest in physics? 01:06:17 augur: Vague. 01:06:30 More practically, I am taking a physics course ATM, and as such have to care. :P 01:07:09 pikhq: check out some of Julian Barbour's work (links to follow) 01:07:16 The Case for Geometry: http://pirsa.org/index.php?p=media&url=http://streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca/Flash/9a93c428-c616-4dca-8713-915277e28056/viewer.html&pirsa=10050060&type=Flash%20Presentation 01:07:38 The deep and suggestive principles of Leibnizian philosophy: http://platonia.com/barbour_hrp2003.pdf 01:14:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:17:52 Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think 01:17:56 amusingly, it's actually getting lighter 01:18:07 alise: well, magic and all. 01:18:15 but wait.. HOW DO THEY KNOW?! 01:18:28 (i know how they know but it was funny to say XP) 01:18:41 augur, correction "lighter relative it's replicas" 01:18:41 EVERYTHING ELSE IS GETTING HEAVIER 01:18:45 -!- lament has joined. 01:18:48 augur: their 1kg weights started getting lighter 01:18:49 EVERYWHERE 01:18:50 which is indeed not absolute lighter 01:18:58 alise, no 01:19:07 Vorpal: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE 01:19:16 alise, ah, I just read about this :P 01:19:17 i was saying that everything weighing 1kg in the world got lighter 01:20:07 nice topic 01:20:56 -!- theoros has joined. 01:21:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:21:06 ok im off 01:21:10 see you in a bit, peeps. 01:21:13 <3 01:21:14 bye augur 01:21:18 lament: why thank you 01:21:27 lament, hi! 01:21:47 quark mating can be a bit up and down, you know 01:22:40 -!- theoros has left. 01:24:17 coppro: if I wrote a comprehensive, referenced errata for that ed in Python post, would it get published? or would i languish here in my infinite pit of despair, envying pizza 01:24:31 but it has its strange charm 01:25:11 /kick oerjan 01:25:22 alise, you desire recognition! 01:25:40 (Or, well, for what you work on to be useful) 01:25:41 no i don't 01:25:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:25:47 Sgeo: useful? 01:25:54 it'd be the most worthless piece of text ever written! 01:26:04 lament: do you mean i should quit while on top, or that i've already hit rock bottom? 01:26:06 a dry analysis of something probably written in three minutes for the hell of it! 01:26:24 Why does my computer insist that it's 19:26 while everything else insists it's 18:26? 01:26:27 /kick oerjan ;; Ha, ha, our op is retarded and can't type two /s. 01:26:37 pikhq: Your other computer is actually in a wormhole bubble across a timezone. 01:26:43 Some clients don't use two // 01:26:43 alise: probably both 01:26:47 oerjan: i mean i'm gonna beat you up red, green and blue 01:26:49 Some clients also don't know of /say 01:26:54 pikhq: You will notice that if you eject the CD-ROM drive, it will disappear half-way through. 01:27:02 coppro: excellent, i shall get writing immediately 01:27:02 And typing /msg #esoteric /whatever can be a prick 01:27:24 coppro: I cannot let this ridiculous Canadian sloppiness go uncorrected 01:27:33 Sgeo: "can be a prick"? Seriously? 01:27:35 lament: well i guess should expect being met with strong force 01:27:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:27:39 *i should 01:27:55 alise, what? 01:28:01 ... Because my timezone got set wrong. Fuuuccck. 01:28:03 I still don't swear like a sailor? 01:28:16 pikhq: No. Wormholes. 01:28:28 Sgeo: I don't think ANYBODY says that :P 01:28:33 Or if they do, they shouldn't. 01:28:37 oerjan, XD 01:28:47 I say it. Happy? 01:30:29 Sgeo: No. 01:30:47 oerjan, I guess the mating quarks find each other charming? Though I guess it is a very strange topic to humans. 01:30:51 -!- dbelange has joined. 01:31:06 alise, watched Sintel? 01:31:18 Sgeo, is it released? 01:31:24 Vorpal: well sometimes they're just meson around 01:31:25 Yes 01:31:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsGyueVLvQ 01:31:33 oerjan, :D 01:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:31:39 Sgeo, not just the trailer? 01:31:48 Does anyone know befunge 01:31:48 coppro: [[Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as 01:31:48 printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of 01:31:49 Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.]] 01:31:53 Is the trailer 14 minutes long? 01:31:54 If you want this title to be more precise, it can be. 01:32:14 Sgeo, I thought youtube videos were limited to 10 minutes? 01:32:24 There we go. 01:32:27 dbelange, yes 01:32:28 This one is 14:48 somehow 01:32:32 Sgeo: no. 01:32:36 dbelange, a lot of us do 01:32:37 Sgeo: not for registered thingybobs. 01:32:49 alise, it's Vorpal who asked 01:33:08 [download] Destination: eRsGyueVLvQ.video <-- wtf is .video 01:33:08 But I didn't realize BlenderFoundation was a registered thingy 01:33:33 $ file eRsGyueVLvQ.video 01:33:34 eRsGyueVLvQ.video: ISO Media, MPEG v4 system, version 2 01:33:35 huh 01:33:49 "Your video output acceleration driver does not support the required resolution: 2048x872 pixels. The maximum supported resolution is 2046x872." 01:33:51 yeargh 01:34:03 almost 01:34:30 lament, indeed 01:34:35 Vorpal: I was wondering if Befunge is related to Bungie? 01:34:45 Is this mischan should I ask #alephone 01:34:47 why is dixon banned? 01:34:56 dbelange, I have no idea what bungie is 01:35:03 so I can't answer that 01:35:10 Anyone else 01:35:13 lament: ^ 01:35:27 wtf is bungie 01:35:29 This is the right chan for Befunge questions 01:35:33 Wrong one for Bungie questions 01:35:50 Thats what I'm asking is, there a relation 01:36:05 probably not since nobody here knows what bungie is ?? 01:36:13 Considering that none of us have heard of Bungie, pro.. what lament said 01:36:15 I know Pfhortran is related with Bungie 01:36:19 It rings a bell though 01:36:22 other than stretchy rope 01:36:28 lament lol 01:36:29 alise: don't submit to me 01:36:31 are you talking about stretchy rope dbelange 01:36:36 * Sgeo Googles 01:36:40 Some video game dev? 01:36:50 coppro: i am merely asking for feedback, you... you worthless bear-mauler 01:37:04 Aha! Proof that several video games are made in Befunge! 01:37:09 It can't be a coincidence 01:37:10 dbelange: wait, the company? 01:37:19 Yeah I'm wondering pretty much about video game developing in Befunge 01:37:23 Sgeo: bungie make marathon and halo 01:37:31 since it is pretty much a game already 01:37:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to GlennBeck. 01:37:37 dbelange: no relation whatsoever 01:37:39 -!- GlennBeck has changed nick to Sgeo. 01:37:41 you're in luck befunge is pretty much designed for video game development 01:37:41 wait, how is it even a game... 01:37:43 Ok, that nick is registered 01:37:47 lament: xD 01:37:49 alise: But they did make Pfohrtran 01:37:57 it is -- hunt the wumpus! 01:38:15 dbelange: of which google knows nothing 01:38:27 didn't someone have like chess in befunge 01:38:40 alise: Pfhortran 01:38:59 Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG 01:38:59 Ah, it's a language designed for video game stuff 01:39:11 [0x1d378b0] avcodec decoder error: more than 5 seconds of late video -> dropping frame (computer too slow ?) 01:39:13 aaaargh 01:39:27 *goes to sintel website and downloads lower res* 01:39:36 still now I get way less than my monitor 01:40:15 I haden't even heard of Sintel until a celebrity tweeted about it :/ 01:40:18 Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG ;; what? 01:40:24 Sgeo: why do you follow celebrities 01:40:50 ...not sure 01:40:56 Felicia Day, to be specific 01:41:03 Not someone like Brittany Spears 01:41:13 Or whoever 01:41:14 alise: Well you have a man who moves 01:41:35 and there are registers (could be HP, gold, ....) 01:41:42 Maybe this is a better example http://alfedenzia.com/scuttle/scuttle.html 01:42:23 dbelange: i guess you _could_ ask the inventor cpressey if he was inspired by RPGs, he sometimes comes here 01:42:44 Oh ok 01:43:01 Im wondering mostly tonight though (lol) about making befunge into a game 01:43:13 or bringing out its Inner Game XD 01:43:16 there's that other languague 01:43:17 I'd love it if someone just came in here and asked about PSOX 01:43:21 what was it called 01:43:24 Grainfimple? 01:43:26 with mouses and cheese and stuff 01:43:30 well why not, we've already made brainfuck into a game at least twice :D 01:43:36 Oh 01:43:50 lament: Hunter? 01:43:55 Hunter, yes 01:44:11 I'm partial to Taxi 01:44:20 When it comes to those sort of langs 01:44:28 So like increment is treasure chest, decrement is orcs, ... etc 01:44:30 dbelange: http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html 01:44:55 ah yes same author too 01:45:42 i am pretty sure dbelange is just fucking with us. 01:46:10 :( 01:46:30 alise: um it's not a weirder idea than many others around here... 01:46:35 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 01:47:04 -!- flippo has joined. 01:47:10 alise: fwiw my intentions are more noble than comp games 01:47:35 the reason dbelange is fucking with us is that he's not actually going to implement this 01:47:54 *noble*? 01:48:02 Townsburg! http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/map-big.png 01:48:04 lament: I want to make befunge into a game for didactical reasons 01:48:11 have you read the Diamond Age 01:49:28 -!- bavarious has joined. 01:50:03 Any way I think that a computer game that teaches kids to think in terms of universal machines (TM or s-exps say) would be beneficial no? 01:50:36 I think most games that have been made with this goal in mind have only done regular languages or SOMETIMES context-free 01:51:21 * oerjan is reminded of http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ 01:51:48 Is Taxi TC? 01:52:52 * Sgeo would love to see turing machines kidified 01:53:02 so for a regular language you might have robot games, or a tower defence 01:53:50 but I think a 2d TM or stack-based thing (like befunge) where registers are HP or caches of trasure 01:54:00 and decrementers are orcs and traps 01:54:18 would be beneficial to kids learning to think 01:55:03 But decrement isn't evil 01:55:17 it is if the stack is empty rofl 01:58:56 rofl ololo 02:00:11 Sgeo, wrt sintel: meh, not what I expected 02:02:33 -!- augur has joined. 02:03:54 augur: hey we got another fag in the channel 02:04:01 * lament points at dbelange 02:04:19 lament, nasty thing you did there 02:04:20 so thats 100% of the channel still, then, ey? 02:04:58 what 02:05:05 dbelange, also pop on empty stack in befunge is just pop 0. If that is what you meant. 02:05:25 anything on empty stack acts as if it popped 0 02:05:31 well ok 02:05:36 Lé sigh. US poverty rates hit 14% of the population. 02:05:38 then how do you die 02:05:49 pikhq, I read that as "USB poverty" first XD 02:05:53 pikhq: hooray! 02:06:04 puberty rates 02:06:06 dbelange, um you mean exit? @ 02:06:20 dbelange, or in befunge-98 you can use q, which pops an exit code 02:06:34 both befunge93 and befunge98 has @ 02:06:35 no I think some crash would be better 02:06:37 which takes no parameter 02:06:41 parameters* 02:06:44 befunge must have bugs 02:06:46 http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2004 02:07:03 dbelange, hopefully not, since I maintain a befunge-98 implementation 02:07:39 dbelange, anyway, you might want to design a fungoid then 02:08:58 No I don't want to build it from the ground "up" 02:10:18 I just think with the proper interpertation and tileset (or diablo style gfx) it would be useful 02:10:23 eh 02:10:25 what 02:10:37 tileset? 02:10:39 huh 02:10:51 for graphics... 02:10:51 you plan on displaying the running program? 02:10:53 interesting 02:11:02 You'd also want an implementation that displays ongoing internals probably 02:11:13 what is wrong with ASCII graphics? 02:11:25 Kids might not like it, I guess 02:11:35 Vorpal have you read the Diamond Age 02:11:38 also how do you display ongoing internals? Befunge-98 has at least 2^32 * 2^23 02:11:41 for the funge space 02:11:45 you can't display that 02:11:47 you just can't 02:11:52 the key is to slowly develop it more and more so that at first it's like 3d 02:11:57 but then it is ascii 02:12:04 and then it is 1010101 02:12:09 I never heard of "diamond age" 02:12:11 I meant the stack (there's a stack, right?) 02:12:30 dbelange: and then it's just 0000000 02:12:42 The display is centered on the player, liek diablo 02:12:42 and then it's just Om 02:12:48 um i think for this limiting fungespace to screen size is ok. or maybe panning... 02:13:00 or ultima 02:13:31 dbelange: there are a number of avid nethack players in the channel 02:13:44 what is nethack 02:13:57 .... 02:14:18 I seem to remember reading that diablo was inspired by nethack 02:14:35 a 2d game with ascii graphics, afaiu. but otherwise very complicated. 02:14:40 Probably the other way around, diablo is pretty old 02:14:47 like the oldest 02:14:49 dbelange, no. nethack is older 02:14:54 dbelange, 1980s 02:15:17 still developed of course 02:15:22 for some values of developed 02:15:24 lol dbelange 02:15:46 coppro, our inside man 02:15:54 coppro, yeah that last comment basically made me label him mentally as "newbie and/or troll" 02:15:55 Nethack's 10 years older than Diablo. 02:15:56 exposing the true nature of the criminals 02:16:33 Vorpal: /msg about the fish plan 02:16:45 Diablo's not even the oldest game *from Blizzard*. 02:17:03 It says nethack was released in 2003?? 02:17:12 dbelange, last version of it 02:17:12 dbelange: try 1987 02:17:15 not the original version 02:17:17 Neither "1980s" nor "active developing" 02:17:25 NetHack is a single-player roguelike video game originally released in 1987. It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), which is a descendant of Rogue (1980).[2] Salon describes it as "one of the finest gaming experiences the computing world has to offer."[2] 02:17:36 and it's really just a modified Hack, which is 1982 02:17:43 1985 02:17:48 no 02:17:52 Hack was created in 1982 by Jay Fenlason with the assistance of Kenny Woodland, Mike Thome, and Jonathan Payne. A greatly extended version was posted on Usenet in 1984 by Andries Brouwer. It is licensed under a 3-clause BSD-like license.[1] 02:17:58 1985 is the release of Hack that NetHack is based on 02:17:59 It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), 02:18:14 NetHack doesn't really center on the character. YOu know what does? Crawl 02:18:19 alise hates me now 02:18:19 Hack (1982) --> another Hack release (1985) --> NetHack (1987) --> ... -> NetHack (2003) 02:18:25 dbelange: ^ i drew you a nice diagram 02:18:42 Fine, so now that you're done arguing about things that dont matter 02:18:45 I find it difficult to believe that anyone with a taurine host hasn't heard of nethack 02:18:46 how about Befunge?? 02:18:49 Then again, the levels in NetHack aren't freakishly huge 02:18:55 And Hack's more an improvement on Rogue, which is from 1980. 02:19:28 moreover, I find it much easier to believe that a CSCer is trolling 02:20:16 coppro: yes, but drawing diagrams is fun 02:20:19 so why not? 02:20:29 pikhq: hack's a total other game :P 02:20:31 ha ha dbelange 02:20:32 Set --> Grp --> Fag 02:20:44 you're in a club the membership in which implies you know Nethack 02:20:50 dbelange just set his groping option to fag 02:20:58 Hawt. 02:21:00 discuss 02:21:23 wait what is this Fag category 02:21:33 alise :: Fag --> Top 02:21:38 --> 02:21:39 and what is the Grp --> Fag functor 02:21:40 ?????? 02:21:40 i was thinking categories there yeah 02:21:46 dbelange: is that meant to be haskell? 02:21:53 WTF is --> ????? 02:22:01 it is a monad 02:22:02 wow it's actually quite fun to see Sgeo this confused 02:22:12 dbelange, .... 02:22:15 * Sgeo facepalms 02:22:26 -!- dbelange has left ("Until next time"). 02:22:33 i do believe there is some --> thing 02:22:33 Sgeo: Clearly an interesting type-level operator. 02:22:36 but i forget what 02:22:36 but Grp isn't a monad, you need an Eq restriction 02:22:46 well Sgeo got trolled 02:23:17 -!- Kordalien has joined. 02:24:14 I feel guilty about driving someone away, even if that someone is a complete and utter moron 02:24:26 And I still think that the thoughts about Befunge for kids might be a good idea 02:24:39 Although Turing Machine for kids would be better imo 02:24:48 poe's law for esolangs :D 02:25:24 Sgeo: dude, he's not a moron, he was trolling 02:25:27 successfully, too 02:26:51 very successfully 02:27:08 alise, hey, what I'm supposed with the 200 kg salmon that arrived. UPS claims you are the sender! 02:28:35 alise, ??? 02:28:47 Vorpal: what 02:29:07 Vorpal: no, seriously ... what? 02:29:12 alise, fish plan.... 02:29:18 oh. ohhhhhhhhhhhh. 02:29:19 * Vorpal facepalms 02:29:26 i have too much of a headache to get that 02:29:36 hm okay 02:29:38 wait trolls are not a subset of morons? 02:29:53 oerjan: most trolls are intelligent people pretending to be morons 02:30:11 there are however a few morons that are trolls 02:30:18 often rather failed ones 02:30:20 none are any good :P 02:30:28 indeed 02:30:54 What would it look like if I were to troll #esoteric ? 02:31:08 it wouldn't work 02:31:10 NO ONE ANSWER THAT 02:31:18 oerjan, okay 02:31:31 Spiritual gunk, then when told otherwise, try to combine spirituality and computer science? 02:31:46 nah, that's just pathetic 02:42:25 i have discovered something alise will surely find disturbing http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dlsks/simon_peyton_jones_ghc_7_status_update_video/c115tsm 02:42:45 oh my 02:43:03 oerjan: stop distracting me, I have a mathNEWS article to write by Monday! 02:43:09 i'm totally getting paid for this you know 02:43:16 * oerjan watches alise's worldview shatter into incompatible pieces 02:44:18 or i would if he hadn't applied such hard-handed evasion tactics 02:45:35 Even I find it disturbing 02:46:57 oerjan, what's so earth shattering about it, I can't watch that link 02:47:22 sorry it's secret 02:47:46 oerjan, I don't have flash... 02:48:18 reddit uses flash? mind you i haven't even looked at the video, just the comments 02:48:29 oerjan, no the linked to page 02:48:32 oerjan, oh that 02:48:39 oerjan, but I don't see that anywhere? 02:48:44 maybe in the video 02:48:47 but not on the page 02:49:01 well it's a comment _about_ the video, obviously 02:49:05 hm 02:49:46 oerjan, but "[...] or Reddit communities."? 02:49:55 -!- bavarious has left ("bye"). 02:50:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:50:33 * oerjan wonders what the heck Vorpal is actually seeing on his screen 02:50:44 i just linked to a reddit comment sub-thread... 02:50:50 oerjan, *oh* 02:52:24 lol Vorpal is stupid 02:52:26 also lacks flash 02:53:50 make a flash player before you recommend it to anyone 02:54:28 Vorpal: also Jameshfisher is obviously being sensationally argumentative like a lot of redditors, i just found what he pointed out amusing 02:56:40 the "[...] or Reddit communities." is just to complain about being downvoted 02:56:54 ah right 02:56:59 night 02:57:09 night 03:00:02 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:18:40 Obviously, hailtothethief is in fact Vorpal 03:19:49 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:26:39 it's that time of year again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11447095 03:28:27 * oerjan likes the Management Prize 03:29:56 FUCK FIREFOX FUCK FLASH FUCK THE LACK OF SWAP SPACE 03:30:27 Sgeo: make a big file on your harddisk and then do swapon to it 03:30:36 i THINK you can do that 03:31:12 My harddisk is a 2GB USB stick, with just 1GB of user data space, and .. about 100MB left 03:31:20 But ty 03:33:25 Hmm 03:33:33 Maybe I should learn to play with Blender at some point 03:33:35 3d games 03:34:26 oerjan: yeah, I want to see that paper 03:40:42 Flash just crashed in the middle of me watching something 03:40:56 how surprising 03:46:16 -!- jane1 has joined. 03:47:48 hi jane1 03:50:00 -!- jane1 has left. 03:52:48 -!- jane1 has joined. 03:52:54 hi jane1 03:53:03 hi a;ise 03:53:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:53:34 -!- augur has joined. 03:53:50 a;ise 03:54:15 sorry,alise 03:54:24 :P 03:54:41 The crashes are happening much more now 03:56:44 Sgeo: the end is nigh 03:57:00 * Sgeo cries 03:57:23 Maybe an update of Firefox etc. will help? 03:58:04 Ooh, Gwibber gets OAuth 03:58:05 Good 03:58:11 I can now actually use it 03:59:27 Needs too much disk space to update everything 03:59:31 I'm going to cry 04:01:48 -!- jane1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:16:18 -!- jane1 has joined. 04:22:38 -!- jane1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:23:54 Maybe I should try Puppy Linux again or something 04:25:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:26:28 USB stick might not have been in tightly enough 04:26:48 I wonder if that could be the cause of the incessant crashing 04:41:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata my favourite page 04:41:22 it gets truly hilarious a bit lower down 04:41:27 especially all the names 04:42:57 "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands." 04:43:03 I'm quite fond of "Thou shalt commit adultery". 04:44:13 alise: a fowl fate indeed 04:45:09 "Their Owl Husbands" would be a good band/novel name/title. 04:45:57 straight from the howly book 04:46:02 shut up :P 04:46:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:49:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:49:51 -!- augur has joined. 04:53:23 Somebody should print a version of the bible that has every error ever known to be printed in a bible. 04:55:46 http://cowbirdsinlove.com/980 04:56:22 "Christ condemneth the poor widow" // Christianity is a very capitalistic religion 04:58:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:59:35 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ?. 05:00:43 I don't even know what this topc message means 05:02:56 s/topc/topic/ 05:05:14 I don't think it's actually meaningful. 05:05:41 I also don't think it is actually meaningful. 05:05:44 -!- jane1 has joined. 05:06:40 It's amusing though :P 05:06:59 OK 05:07:42 Well, it certainly doesn't lack unmeaning. 05:08:03 What is ephemeral ontologists? 05:08:21 Presumably people who study short-lived things. 05:08:39 Or people who are short-lived studying things. 05:08:43 Or --- yeah :P 05:08:45 OK 05:10:37 Why am I so good at not doing anything? 05:10:51 RARGH READ FYTHE SPEC 05:11:07 I'm too busy doing fuck-all! 05:11:22 That's a lot of stuff to fuck! (All stuff) 05:11:26 I did find the problem in the Enhanced CWEB, which I have now fixed. The problem was inserting discretionary breaks after \BIS 05:11:50 Gregor: I'm like Wowbagger with more sex. 05:16:38 -!- jane1 has left. 05:19:03 -!- jane1 has joined. 05:20:39 -!- jane1 has left. 05:39:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 05:55:14 -!- zeotrope_ has joined. 05:55:36 Goodnight. 05:55:37 Bye. 05:55:45 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:57:40 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:14:07 "Im looking for a bento box, it cant be pinku (thats japanese for pink) or any girl color. It has to be of 2 or more kotoba (thats japanese for 2 compartments) and has be be chibi(small) sized" 06:14:21 My faith in humanity is dying. 06:14:56 "pinku" X-D 06:15:24 "kotoba" is Japanese for "word" and "chibi" is a slang term for a cutesy drawing style. 06:15:42 From "chiisai hito", I think. 06:15:44 What's actual-Japanese for pink? 06:15:52 pinku 06:16:09 Uhh, that's presumably an import from English. What's pre-English Japanese for pink then? >_> 06:16:32 PRE-ENGLISH JAPANESE WERE TOO AWESOME FOR PINK 06:16:39 D-8 06:16:40 tankôshoku 06:16:54 Is that just "light red" compressed or something? 06:17:19 Faint red color. 06:17:29 Or momoiro. Peach color. 06:17:43 Pinku is by far the most common, though. 06:17:58 momotaro 06:18:10 oerjan: Yes, same morpheme. 06:19:26 Also, I had to look up ones that weren't "pinku". 06:20:12 pinku shirtu, domo arigato 06:20:42 oerjan: pinku shâtsu wo kudasai; domo arigatô. I think you mean. 06:21:04 Erm, dômo arigatô. 06:21:08 POSSIBLY 06:21:49 especially if shâtsu is an english loanword 06:21:55 It is. 06:22:22 It refers to button-up shirts. 06:23:38 * oerjan shouldn't talk - the original word "kortbukser" is almost completely replaced by "shorts" in norwegian 06:23:40 Or perhaps you mean: hįnnku siȳâtu wo kutàsai; tồmo arikàtô. 06:25:05 * oerjan wouldn't know, you know 06:25:26 Or perhaps you mean "domo arigato, Mr. Robato". 06:26:19 CERTAINLY NOT 07:12:53 Ò ḥóẅ Ɨ ♥ çőḿṗốŝę. 07:20:00 hiiii 07:28:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:32:06 http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/this-pool-creates-waves-in-the-shape-of%E2%80%A6anything/ 07:34:43 cheater99: Awesome. 07:36:03 It's a good thing they got Japan Kramer to check it out. 07:37:04 lol 07:37:17 actually japan kramer is the guy who made it. 07:37:35 I DON'T SPEAK JAPANALANG 07:37:41 All that for safety testing. 07:38:01 They are using that to figure out how to make better safety testing procedures for boats. Seriously. 07:38:12 I thought it was Japan Business Suit Guy 07:38:25 (The guy who made it, that is) 07:38:39 Too suit-y. 07:38:49 He talked more like a businessman than anything else. 07:43:08 I'm not sure what's up with Japan Kramer there. 07:43:36 Especially since he's crazy-Euromerican-looking. 07:43:57 Yeah, I got nothing, and I understood the video. 07:59:37 -!- clog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:28 Did you understand EVERY WORD? 08:04:38 No, but I understood most of it. 08:04:48 Maybe encoded into one seeming-innocuous unrecognized word was a lengthy exposition on the role of each of the people in the video. 08:13:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 08:32:48 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:39:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:40:25 Where's clog? 08:40:43 I just noticed that the logs cut off halfway through yesterday. 08:44:30 crap 08:44:32 the pipes are probably... 08:44:35 * cheater99 puts on sunglasses 08:44:37 clogged. 08:44:38 * coppro must figure out how to get a log 08:44:44 YYYYEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! 08:44:46 becase dbelange was in here 08:48:36 Who? 08:49:17 Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs? 08:49:37 https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ 08:52:05 Bah, it doesn't log anything interesting. 08:52:10 At the moment. 08:52:29 By my calculations, we have 2 hours before the next log fetch. 09:00:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:07:16 calculate wronger then 09:17:02 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 09:17:05 * coppro must figure out how to get a log <-- your own irc client logs 09:17:21 if you don't have them: your own issue 09:18:40 I could of course share mine, but why 09:20:26 Because we don't have any others and we're not always online? 09:24:44 Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs 09:25:00 it has logs of some length 09:25:11 usually about a day and a half in here 09:25:24 sometimes less 09:29:58 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:33:16 coppro, XChat? 09:37:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:44:16 Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs <-- hm... 09:44:31 -coppro- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 <-- okay, no clue 09:44:36 but it should be possible 09:44:46 not sure about dumping scrollback though 09:44:54 which is different from logging I think 09:45:03 logging starts from the point you activate it 09:45:37 coppro, still I could give you logs I guess, they are in a custom xchat-like format and are in the CEST timezone 09:45:45 (which is UTC+2) 09:54:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:55:15 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:58:26 Vorpal, yes, please. 09:58:44 Phantom_Hoover, not in general, just for coppro specific usage I meant 09:59:03 We all want the logs! 09:59:33 Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel. 09:59:58 Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually. 10:00:08 Touché. 10:00:51 bbl 10:01:52 coppro, quick, ask for logs! 10:06:40 coppro, since you were just interested in the bit where dbelange was in here, that is all I will include. But now, bbl for a few hours 10:12:19 -!- zeotrope_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:43:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:43:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:45:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 10:48:25 -!- tombom has joined. 10:49:07 Where was that thought experiment with the sphere of air that approximated the Poincaré hyperbolic model? 11:14:19 -!- Harpyon has joined. 11:27:16 -!- Zuu has joined. 11:27:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 11:27:16 -!- Zuu has joined. 11:27:37 -!- yorick has joined. 11:28:34 how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? 11:31:30 yorick, none that I know of, why? 11:31:32 btw: 11:31:35 $ grep -Ev '^#|[0-9]+/(tcp|udp|sctp|dccp)' /etc/services 11:31:35 cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging 11:31:38 wtf is tdp? 11:31:50 I googled and it seems IANA itself lists it as tdp too 11:31:59 so not just a typo in my local copy 11:32:01 Vorpal: because it's part of the dutch informatics olympiad :P 11:32:25 sounds like cheating helping you then 11:32:46 -!- Salemakoum_ has joined. 11:33:21 Vorpal: tag distribution protocol 11:33:29 Vorpal: I'm not asking :) 11:33:34 hm 11:33:44 yorick, or it could be a typo for either udp or tcp 11:33:54 yorick, after all it is the only tdp port listed there 11:34:01 and: 11:34:03 http://www.protocols.com/pbook/tag.htm#TDP 11:34:03 cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging 11:34:03 cuelink-disc 5271/udp # StageSoft CueLink discovery 11:34:05 that looks suspect 11:34:12 it does 11:34:13 one tdp and one udp 11:34:32 the d is not far from the c 11:34:48 yorick, assuming qwerty 11:35:03 probably a safe assumption though 11:35:04 most people have qwerty 11:36:31 yorick, you know there's a huge table of constants on the esolangs wiki? 11:36:42 If they're clever enough, they'll find that. 11:36:57 * Phantom_Hoover continues to wrestle with DCGs. 11:37:12 Phantom_Hoover: I know that, but I need something smaller :P 11:38:32 Are you restricted beyond what passes for BF's spec? 11:38:46 yorick, if you are taking part in this competition it seems like cheating to help you 11:39:10 true :/ 11:39:13 Phantom_Hoover: stop helping me 11:39:31 I'm not likely to be able to help. 11:39:44 cells are unsigned 8-bit 11:43:25 Wrapping? 11:43:37 What kind of length are you aiming for? 11:44:30 'Note that even very well-known de facto uses of EtherTypes are not always recorded in the IEEE list of EtherType values. For example, EtherType 0x0806 (used by ARP) appears in the IEEE list only as "Symbolics, Inc., Protocol unavailable."' 11:44:31 XD 11:45:35 Phantom_Hoover: anything lower than 74 11:45:51 For each number or in total? 11:46:04 in total 11:46:14 (the idea is to print a string "CodeCup") 11:46:23 hm 11:46:38 !bf_txtgen CodeCup 11:46:48 80 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>+.<<+.+.>.>++++++.-----.>-. [400] 11:46:49 that will iirc include a newline 11:46:56 and it is rather stupid 11:47:04 yeah, doesn't help you much 11:47:18 that's 74 without the \n 11:47:46 -!- Salemakoum_ has quit (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi). 11:48:13 hm 11:48:53 yorick, anyway there are obvious ways to make that shorter, due to the competition nature of the thing I won't help you with that though 11:49:09 yorick, I can get 67,100,111 in 47 characters, but that's probably not enough. 11:50:15 And that was just concatenating the wiki's constants. 11:50:45 that gives 76 11:52:07 Concatenating and reusing the C? 11:52:31 And adding one for the e? 11:53:01 And the p? 11:54:13 So 'C'.>'o'.>'d'.+.<<.>>>'u'.<<+. 11:54:31 I am reusing the C already 11:55:43 but stop helping me 11:58:08 Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio! 11:59:51 Oh, well. That only gets it down to 79. 12:02:58 * yorick should put an ignore on that line 12:03:42 It's not even terribly good... 12:07:55 I should somehow be able to take advantage of the fact that they are all one more than a multiple of 11 12:08:49 indeed you should. And 11 is probably shorter as a a calculation of something else 12:09:30 it isn't 12:09:45 mhm 12:09:54 +++++[>++<-]+ <-- that's 13 12:10:08 well...its size is 13, it calculates 11 12:10:25 +++[>+++<-]++ <-- that's also 13 12:14:33 There is that list of constants at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants but of course for a longer string it most likely is not sensible to just concatenate those. 12:16:09 The text generator used by the bot can do it in 73 characters with the "-t 3" flag and no newline. 12:20:31 (I sure hope I didn't accidentally help.) 12:21:45 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator 12:21:49 and I already knew about the constants 12:27:14 I also have it in 73 chars :/ 12:32:10 The text generator is limited to programs of that very simple form, so it's not going to figure out anything very clever. (No nested loops or anything.) 12:32:16 HMM/ 12:32:22 Phantom_Hoover: HMMMMM! 12:32:39 Gregor's hg repository for the esologs cuts of at the exact same byte as clog's! 12:32:43 Hidden Markov Models? 12:33:02 So last night effectively never was. 12:33:35 Phantom_Hoover, um, it fetches from clog afaik 12:33:41 it is just his way to store clog data 12:33:53 Are there no other logs? 12:34:06 Phantom_Hoover, your own client may log 12:34:11 Phantom_Hoover, same goes for your bouncer 12:34:20 I don't know of any other public logs. 12:34:22 Phantom_Hoover, maybe time to set up something yourself? 12:34:42 I'm interested in the logs from when I was offline and my computer off. 12:34:53 Phantom_Hoover, so use a bouncer on a vps :P 12:35:10 Vorpal, do you have one of these? 12:35:37 Spare no expense! What's more important, your next lunch or adequate #esoteric log coverage? 12:35:43 Phantom_Hoover, a VPS? No. Or rather: depends. Not for general use though, and I have my own bouncer on a server on my lam 12:36:10 but there are reasonable free public shell services. A few at least. 12:36:15 Do you have logs for last night, and will you give them to me? 12:36:46 Phantom_Hoover, 1) yes I have them 2) why should I, you have been acting like a jerk towards me most of the time 12:36:52 Didn't you go through this already? At least I think I saw something like that in the logs. 12:37:04 Vorpal, I'll reform! 12:37:47 Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had.... 12:37:54 and um that didn't exactly work out well 12:38:05 Phantom_Hoover: Here's an idea: reform as a cube. 12:38:12 fizzie, good idea 12:38:17 more people should do that 12:38:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Cuber. 12:38:24 See? 12:38:41 I'm a changed platonic solid! 12:39:22 Vorpal, I'm not that much of a jerk anyway! 12:39:40 Phantom_Cuber: You should put that in your CV, that's a really nice way of putting it. 12:39:53 "I'm not that much of a jerk." Definite hiring potential. 12:39:57 Phantom_Cuber, how old are you now again? 12:40:01 13! 12:40:13 what? really? I thought you refused to tell people? 12:40:29 6227020800 years; an ancient. 12:40:30 I've reformed, remember! 12:40:34 if you are that desperate for logs, you are addicted or something, can't be healthy :P 12:41:01 hm 12:41:06 I want to know who the mystery person is! 12:42:47 okay I will filter out private info from logs 12:43:12 -!- Harpyon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:43:45 -!- Harpyon_ has joined. 12:43:57 I suppose I should point out that I'm not actually 13. 12:44:11 Since I'm not *that* much of a jerk. 12:44:16 See! Reformedish! 12:44:20 Phantom_Cuber, hm 12:44:25 Phantom_Cuber, so how old are you really? 12:44:47 As old as the winds blowing in the trees... 12:45:49 I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... 12:46:17 http://sprunge.us/CXgQ 12:46:38 Phantom_Cuber, and why did you not consider asking fizzie? It is well known he keeps logs after all 12:46:53 fizzie, WHYYYY 12:47:14 Phantom_Cuber, why what? 12:47:30 Why anything? 12:47:45 11. Security Considerations 12:47:45 This document is about security; as such, there are no additional 12:47:45 security considerations. 12:47:46 heh 12:48:00 a bit silly to even need to include such a section in an RFC 12:48:24 (from "RFC 5062 - Security Attacks Found Against the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) and Current Countermeasures") 12:48:29 -!- Flonk has joined. 12:52:01 Guys, whats your HTML Editor of choice (Windows)? I've tried Dreamweaver for some days now, but its just too heavy. 12:52:22 wrong channel... 12:53:11 alright. 12:53:12 (but I use a text editor with syntax highlighting for html, I don't know any windows apps, but surely something like emacs has been ported) 12:56:35 There's a Windows port of gvim, that's not too shabby. It's not exactly an "HTML Editor" though. 13:19:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:23:54 * Phantom_Cuber → things 13:28:03 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:49:47 yay, I got a solution in 70 *O* 13:53:25 Ohnoes! a solution! 13:53:53 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution 13:54:28 Zuu: a solution to the "make the smallest possible BF code that prints "CodeCup"" 13:55:05 * Zuu looks at his selection of chemicals ... 13:55:21 Yeah.. i dont have what it takes to neutralize that :/ 13:55:49 +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. yay 13:59:09 so what does this give: ++++++++[>++[->++++++<<]>><<]>>.>+>++.<.>++++----. ? 14:01:48 it gives 0x7 0x2 0x7 0x2 14:02:07 Pretty close, eh? 14:02:16 :P 14:03:04 Thats probably my first and last attempt at writing anything that remotely resembles BF source 14:05:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 14:05:49 Zuu: http://pastebin.com/drd9hPyE (give it input C) was my first attempt 14:20:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:49:49 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 14:53:04 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:53:17 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 14:54:31 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:59:09 -!- sftp has joined. 15:02:15 ok 15:03:20 cant say my attempt was very honest since i really just took what you pasted, and removed random characters :P 15:04:27 heh 15:05:40 are genetic algorithms any great for bf code generation? 15:05:56 PROBABLY NOT 15:06:31 WHY NOT? 15:07:27 languages that work well for local search techniques for problem solving are ones that have a semi-continuous solution space 15:07:55 the subset of BF including +,-,., and , have this property 15:07:57 While it might not work well for BF i think it works far better for BF than so so many other languages 15:08:15 the whole [] construct doesn't really 15:08:51 -!- alise has joined. 15:09:23 Soooo... 15:09:28 Anyone have a copy of the logs? 15:10:19 quintopia: a testrun of http://code.google.com/p/bf-code-generation/ reveals that you are right 15:10:25 its just a amtter of transforming the loop construct into a [[[[[[[[[ construct, where the number of ['s tells how many of the following characters are supposed to be looped 15:10:33 alise: i was in the room, but i may or may not have logged it >.> 15:11:17 i dont know what the < and > means in bf though 15:11:19 zuu: you mean a bounded loop? 15:11:33 so that only primitive recursive functions can be generated? 15:11:54 quintopia, no its simply a syntactical change 15:12:10 well, i mean, that's cool and all, most biological computers (people for instance) can only compute primitive recursive functions anyway. . . 15:12:30 oh i get it 15:12:32 aaa[xxxxxx]bbb would be written aaa[[[[[[[xxxxxxbbb 15:12:36 you're dropping the ] 15:13:03 yeah, i don't think that changes anything really about the difficulty of GA on it 15:13:14 well 15:13:19 it may make it slightly better 15:13:28 * alise sends off an email to Faré 15:13:34 asking him to restart clog 15:15:07 is clog supposed to be more a pun on what happens to drains or shoes that make sounds? 15:15:24 i think the former. 15:15:46 knowing Faré's political opinions he'll probably ask me to pay for the restart ;) 15:16:17 alise: i have about 24 hours worth of logs for sure. you want anything recent? 15:16:41 quintopia: every line after 15:16:41 14:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash 15:16:41 14:25:39 I think the stdlib version loops once per bit 15:16:43 (yesterday) 15:16:47 (those timestamps may be wrong for you) 15:16:51 to when I joined would be nice :) 15:16:58 okiedoke 15:17:01 to reconstruct the timeline later if I ever get around to creating a full log DB 15:17:01 thanks 15:19:53 you were in the chan until midnight my time. don't you have logs of that? 15:20:22 oh, true 15:20:31 quintopia: i left the channel a few times accidentally though 15:21:02 loading this 2.6 mb log file is fun 15:21:32 quintopia: yeah, okay, I only need my quit to my join 15:21:35 thanks :) 15:21:38 Hehe 15:21:45 whops wrong window 15:22:58 http://pastebin.com/UVXyzY2t <-- is this really horrible? it generates BF code from desired-string input :) 15:23:59 I actually have a full log of this channel for the entire time i've been here 15:24:11 yorick: how does that work for sufficiently big numbers? 15:24:15 but i have a file containing just the last 24 hours for you here... 15:24:18 where shall i send it? 15:24:24 quintopia: filebin.ca? 15:24:28 kk 15:24:33 thanks 15:24:45 the timestream must be preserved! 15:24:47 alise: it generates code wrong a string between "A"-"z" 15:24:53 so no need for anything bigger 15:25:08 yorick: oh. 15:25:12 boring :P 15:25:33 it should totally use dynamic programming or something! 15:26:17 alise: it should, that's part 3 of the challenge :P 15:26:46 challenge? 15:26:50 http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt 15:26:55 alise: dutch informatics olympiad 15:27:05 yorick: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl 15:27:08 alise: so don't help me :) 15:27:17 yorick: shouldn't you be coding :) 15:27:22 quintopia: groan @ filename 15:27:35 quintopia: 10:23 < alise> oerjanerer ;; you know, i have all that logged 15:27:41 alise: just finished part 2...still thinking/planning 15:27:46 up to 00:55 -!- alise [~alise@91.105.114.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] :-P 15:28:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:28:53 alise: with irssi, it's easier to just dump the entire scrollback buffer to a file 15:28:53 part one was make a normal bf code generator, part 2 was make something small yourself, part 3 is make a size-optimizing code generator 15:29:01 ah 15:29:09 quintopia-2010-10-02-03; what a terrible filename 15:29:30 ideally some day I'll get a hold of Vorpal's private logs and merge them with the clog ones :P 15:29:36 a log of our PMs? 15:29:43 no 15:29:45 that txt 15:29:51 (furalise) 15:29:58 i'm too anal to not give it a meaningful name! 15:30:35 what is the 03 at the end for? 15:30:37 oh 15:30:42 the 2nd to the 3rd 15:30:43 i get it 15:30:51 yeah precisely :P 15:31:08 i liked my filename better 15:34:59 mopr 15:37:03 * yorick goes looking for something on dynamic programming 15:37:25 yorick: does it really say dynamic programming? 15:37:32 i was joking, but i guess it could help 15:37:43 yorick: genetic programming is usually what is done for this 15:37:48 !bf_txtgen poop 15:37:57 !bf_textgen yorick 15:38:05 bit slow though 15:38:08 !userinterps 15:38:08 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 15:38:11 44 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.-..+.>. [282] 15:38:13 alise: it just says "write something that generates a size-optimized bf-code for a random string" 15:38:35 alise: I looked at genetic programming, it appears to be horrible 15:38:38 yorick: genetic programming will help a ton. dynamic programming won't. the above uses genetic programming, so does everything else 15:38:40 that's all i'll say :) 15:38:57 yorick: oh, you don't, like, genetically program from nothing to the string 15:39:15 i think you start with a regular RLE'd one, and then start mutating that in ways that make it smaller 15:39:17 i could be totally wrong though 15:39:20 so maybe ignore me 15:39:34 * yorick will look into that 15:39:48 yorick: i'd link you to the one egobot uses but *uh* pretty sure that's against your rules 15:40:13 i should think a dynamic programming solution would do pretty well... 15:40:22 03:44 < coppro> crap 15:40:24 does it use the java thing? 15:40:30 quoted for prosperity 15:40:35 yorick: uhh, yes, it does use some sort of java thing 15:40:51 does it use the "bf-code-generation" java thing? 15:41:01 i don't know; however i can link you. 15:41:10 then it's not it :) 15:41:20 the link would contain it 15:41:30 yorick: no -- egobot has its own copy of everything. 15:41:39 http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/114%3A1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.tar.gz 15:41:43 there's the code 15:41:58 no, wait, just .class :D 15:42:04 yorick: i distinctly recall it was in a cvs repository 15:42:07 but it *could* have just evolved into that 15:42:49 yorick: how are they bowlderising "brainfuck"? :) 15:42:59 https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen 15:43:02 alise: "BF" 15:43:19 yorick: hmm, are you Dutch? 15:43:26 nooga: yes 15:43:49 yorick: did you work on OTS ? 15:43:54 yorick: booring :) 15:43:56 nooga: no 15:44:03 https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen ;; this is just egobot's launcher for it 15:44:12 ask Gregor 15:44:12 :P 15:44:23 i'm not sure how dynamic programming would help. 15:44:43 alise: I found the .java already :/ 15:44:59 yorick: ohh, right, it's .java 15:45:02 i was thinking .class 15:45:05 sorry, i'm dumb :) 15:45:23 03:49 < Phantom_Hoover> Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs? 15:45:28 no, that just mirrors clog 15:45:42 04:17 < Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue 15:45:42 04:18 < Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why 15:45:48 "*that* would decrease my average overall snottiness!" 15:45:53 meh @ java 15:46:32 yorick: that has nothing to do with the algorithm :P 15:46:56 alise: it makes it about 28% less readable 15:47:00 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel. 15:47:00 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually. 15:47:05 it's that time of month again for Vorpal! 15:47:09 yorick: than *C*? 15:47:22 at least it doesn't have any malloc()s, sure Java is ridiculously verbose, but you should easily be able to figure out the algorithm 15:47:22 alise: than *python* 15:47:28 yorick: oh, i thought that C was yours 15:47:32 Python is lame :P 15:47:33 alise: it is too 15:47:45 (note: I hate Java, C and Python, so you cannot rebut >_>) 15:47:53 C++! 15:54:05 yorick: congratulations, that's the worst language you've named so far! :D 15:54:34 alise: javascript! 15:55:05 yorick: is fucked up in strange ways. But at least it's based on Scheme.. 15:55:19 true :) 15:55:21 I like JS 15:55:32 visual basic! 15:58:18 yorick: >_< 15:59:32 Vorpal: i was wondering why warzone 2100 was so polished, then i googled it and found out it was originally a commercial game 15:59:33 how surprising :P 16:02:07 !bf_textgen -g 200 -t 3 abcdefg 16:02:21 yorick: doesn't it do "$foo" in the launcher script? 16:02:25 one may want to run it locally. 16:02:34 alise: it works locally :) 16:02:49 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>><<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.+.+. <-- it brings the world things like this :) 16:03:01 BancSTAR! 16:03:18 APL! 16:03:27 yorick: yeah >><< is a special kind of stupidity :) 16:03:31 yorick: just run a BF->BF optimiser on it 16:03:35 not difficult to elide things like that at all 16:03:50 I know 16:03:55 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 16:04:19 hmm I should study it, forget all about it and write my own :) 16:04:23 []......[ 16:04:36 doesn't egobot's do that automatically? 16:04:37 Oh wait 16:04:41 cuz that would be the smart thing 16:04:41 Oh no 16:04:48 []........[elidable] 16:04:58 quintopia: it should :P 16:05:27 07:21 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator 16:05:37 http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/createplayer.php? 16:05:39 classes 16:05:47 in KoL are sooooooo awesome 16:06:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:06:19 alise: shhh 16:06:57 alise: that was for writing my codecup text thing 16:07:00 this is a generator :P 16:16:58 I see a red robe and I want to turn it black 16:17:35 I want to put it on with my wizard hat 16:18:08 -!- Harpyon_ has quit (Quit: Harpyon_). 16:19:17 pastamancer 16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host). 16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:28:04 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:28:11 07:37 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had.... 16:28:20 Phanty, you have been CORRUPTED! You HORRIBLE BASTARD! 16:30:03 07:45 < Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... ;; he's only a jerk when you are 16:34:33 are people in this channel generally emotionally instable? 16:35:41 yorick, only a few of them 16:36:08 Vorpal: does that include you? 16:36:38 yorick, well personally I don't think so, or at least there are far worse people in here. 16:36:49 yorick, rather it is that I and alise don't get along at all 16:37:06 yorick: no no it's very simple 16:37:09 everyone in here is cool except Vorpal ;) 16:37:15 Vorpal: I see 16:37:50 I would say instead that everyone in here apart from alise, and to some degree phantom_hoover, are cool 16:42:19 alise, besides you don't get along with Quad*r*e*scence (* to avoid highlight), and a few more people. So your statement was exaggerated presumably 16:42:47 he's just a troll. and never talks. 16:42:50 so that doesn't really count 16:43:06 =D 16:44:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:36 no clog, even :( 16:46:19 oerjan: E's been plungered. 16:46:43 oerjan: i have logs 16:47:00 and, unlike Vorpal (watch carefully yorick -- this is how a professional does it), i won't argue with you before linking them 16:47:09 http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt, props to quintopia 16:47:49 I MAY STILL HAVE TO BAN YOU FOR THAT 16:48:11 It's funny because oerjan has ops and never uses them! 16:48:20 "never" 16:48:34 "Never" indeed; more oftener than, say, I, I'd say. 16:48:36 those logs seem incomplete as well 16:48:48 they are complete up until when i got in here 16:49:02 ah 16:49:15 i can give you those if you want 16:49:35 well unless someone pinged me, never mind 16:50:02 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined. 16:51:21 < Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though <-- i did manage to do that and start logging into the same file once, but it was a pain i thought 16:52:50 two different commands, and not a common format for choosing a file i think 16:55:20 < yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? <-- we have a wiki page for that, brainfuck constants 16:56:12 the wrapping versions are afaik minimal 16:56:54 oerjan: I have found my solution already :) 16:57:15 oerjan: and I know about the wiki page, needed something smaller 16:58:25 oh you mean to initialize to all three at once? i guess that might be smaller than combining the separate algorithms. 16:58:53 if you're lucky 16:59:18 +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. it is :) 16:59:46 it prints "CodeCup" :) 16:59:56 > map chr [67,100,111] 16:59:57 "Cdo" 17:00:59 that looks a little more complicated than what EgoBot's program does 17:01:02 (part of the dutch informatics olympiad) 17:01:07 huh 17:01:51 !help languages 17:01:52 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 17:02:17 !userinterps 17:02:17 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 17:02:25 !bf_textgen CodeCup 17:02:31 !bf_txtgen CodeCup 17:02:43 i cannot see it in the list :( 17:02:44 82 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>---.>+.<<.+.>.>++++++.-----.>. [135] 17:02:51 oh maybe it's separate from both 17:02:52 !help 17:02:53 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 17:02:56 heh 17:03:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:03:42 yeah it's an actual interp 17:03:46 it doesn't make nesting loops of course, it's a rather simple algorithm 17:03:57 because it takes command-line arguments and stuff and blah 17:04:03 oerjan: yeah i want to make my own now... 17:04:16 and I *have* to make my own now 17:04:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:04:23 Zuu's idea of [^n meaning next n instructions are in a loop is interesting... but not that exact syntax 17:04:28 since that stops you doing [[ (BF) 17:04:41 not sure how to do it though 17:04:46 yorick: well you seem to have beat it already 17:05:01 oerjan: I have not made my own generator 17:05:05 (that's the next one) 17:05:23 ok 17:06:32 * alise decides to enable viewing window contents when resizing, this *is* 2010... 17:07:40 alise: my windows actually scale while resizing 17:07:52 and change size when done 17:07:52 hee, i still have that option off 17:08:00 yorick: i tried that once, it was godawful 17:08:10 it makes you *think* you have some perception of what it'll look like and you decide how to resize it based on that 17:08:11 but then OOPS NO 17:08:27 X11 really sucks at resizing though, especially with browsers 17:08:30 it's quite pathetic 17:09:07 of course with real resizing the window border flashes. lol. 17:09:21 < yorick> but stop helping me <-- IT'S IN OUR BLOOD 17:09:24 Linux graphics: Think you know how much it sucks? Nope! More than that! 17:09:37 oerjan: but then I'll have cheated :/ 17:09:51 no, no, just credit us as ... creative assistants! 17:10:15 oerjan: I like how helping people is the deep, dark, horrible flaw in our blood. 17:10:22 alise: I cannot actually do that :/ 17:10:27 yorick: we're joking :) 17:11:00 the actual live resizing is horrible :) 17:11:00 alise: IT'S NOT PROPER CAPITALISM. well unless we charge i guess. 17:11:33 yorick: only on X11 :P 17:11:39 alise: true 17:11:50 and that's just because X11 is the most hilariously 80s thing ever dreamt of 17:12:08 also true 17:12:08 more hilariously 80s than back to the future? 17:12:13 let's buy one million dollar server and five gajillion $5 monitors and keyboards! 17:12:18 and NETWORK! 17:12:30 it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... 17:12:31 alise: but it has nice ssh forwarding :) 17:12:33 quintopia: well. in software :P 17:12:36 more hilariously 80s than everything about the show "everybody hates chris"? 17:12:41 oerjan: this is just the first round 17:12:43 yorick: yeaah but toolkits should do that really 17:12:50 if it just sent down gtk messages and local gtk rendered it 17:12:52 it'd be much nicer 17:12:56 alise: tell that to my old TRS-80 games :D 17:13:04 quintopia: fine! late 80s! 17:13:20 alise: but then you'd need _toolkits_ 17:13:24 it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... ;; "We will now seal you inside a Faraday cage. There will be no food." 17:13:34 yorick: because you program in pure X-over-socket? :) 17:13:46 alise: possibly! 17:14:06 that sounds like a brilliant set up 17:14:10 except for the food thing 17:14:28 I'll still need power 17:14:37 and then I'll secretly DLAN over it :/ 17:14:48 yorick: no, no, you get a hole in the wall with a computer in it 17:15:02 alise: I'll hack the computer! 17:15:03 just a keyboard -- without those pesky unneeded F keys and the like -- and a monitor, running only a compile/run button and an editor 17:15:09 plus some paper on the wall telling you what to do 17:15:13 good luck getting past that 17:15:24 oh yeah and it's all baked into the wall so you can't get any of it out 17:15:31 it's the part that allows you to run your own code :) 17:15:39 yorick: in a qemu VM 17:15:44 :) 17:15:47 with no devices 17:15:56 qemu has been proven unsafe 17:16:02 yorick: qemu inside virtualbox inside ... 17:16:04 without virtualisation 17:16:11 oh yeah and the editor is custom and only supports arrow keys, backspace/delete, and typing 17:16:38 I somehow don't think this is gonna happen 17:23:06 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution 17:23:30 A NEUTRALIZED SOLUTION IS STILL A SOLUTION 17:24:03 you probably want to make it precipitate 17:25:55 * quintopia mixes in some chemicals to precipitate the solution 17:28:12 well it _could_ be he doesn't mind solutions, as long as they're not too basic 17:28:16 coppro: ping 17:28:56 * quintopia freezes the solution with LN? 17:29:01 *LN2 17:29:22 apparently 2-subscript is unicode. I don't transmit unicode. 17:34:34 why not? 17:34:38 the rest of us do 17:34:55 pikhq: You know you're anal when you decode FLAC files just to re-encode them with --best. 17:38:31 -!- Kordalien has joined. 17:39:21 pikhq: ...how the hell is this .flac file smaller than a --best re-encoding? 17:42:01 alise: ALIEN TECHNOLOGY 17:42:08 it's the only possible answer 17:42:43 LOLZ NOW I HAVE TO FIND A TRACK THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO 17:43:31 does there exist a turing-complete language in which a program's inverse is just that program written backwards? is that even possible? 17:43:50 quintopia: Kayak comes close 17:44:36 quintopia: i thought about that once. 17:44:48 oerjan: only close? 17:44:58 because we don't know whether it's TC or not? 17:45:14 you also have to switch to the other matching bracket 17:45:19 ah 17:45:25 Should I continue trying to wrestle with DCGs? 17:45:28 that's fixable, surely? 17:45:29 Phantom_Cuber: yes 17:45:33 Phantom_Cuber: they're jawesome 17:45:36 *jawsome 17:45:47 They are, but they're rather irritating. 17:46:07 well yeah you could have a matching system where ) ... ( and ( ... ) are both possible 17:46:20 alise: it's easily fixable in fact. just make it so that at the top level either ordering is equivalent 17:46:21 but i don't recall that kayak does that 17:46:33 quintopia: how, with nesting? 17:46:35 oh, hm 17:46:37 but 17:46:42 (foo )bar( quux) 17:46:43 of course, once below the top level, you have to use the convention you chose at the top level 17:46:46 you need whitespace-sensitivity :D 17:46:53 like nopol 17:46:57 did that with <> and >< 17:47:06 alise: the first ) matches the previous ( because there _is_ a previous ( to match, simply 17:47:14 oerjan: right. 17:47:25 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt unfortunately lacks any examples 17:47:34 hmm wait that ><> ending sequence might have one 17:47:35 maybe not 17:47:46 Has Burro been mentioned yet? 17:47:55 Burro doesn't qualify 17:48:17 It doesn't, but it's relevant. 17:48:17 is Kayak TC? 17:48:33 kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_, in which case reversing it isn't really _that_ meaningful 17:48:40 jesus, it would be easier to buy the fucking single and extract the track off at this point 17:48:56 "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_" 17:48:59 oerjan: there is no tc tag on the page 17:49:01 i imagine it is unknown 17:49:10 "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_" <-- just love the redundancy of this 17:49:14 oerjan: well, that's good enough. We only care about reversibility for halting computations. 17:49:38 also you sometimes need to include a bit bucket for tossing information into, if two inputs give the same output 17:49:53 which is something any reversible TC language requires 17:49:56 quintopia: it could ununhalt unforever! 17:50:01 a place to store unnecessary information 17:50:06 oerjan, Burro manages TCness with antiprograms. 17:50:23 because all function have to be bijections for invertibility to make sense 17:51:39 but "the set of all functions with finite output" is equivalent to "the set of all bijections, possibly with some of the output discarded" 17:52:39 errr.. . ."finite output" should probably be "output sized as a function of input size"... 17:55:07 one thing i don't like about kayak (and other reversible languages like befreak) is they include arbitrary rules just to force reversibility 17:55:22 like "In addition, code must result in an empty temporary register when the structure is exited." 17:56:03 it would be nice if the limitations on the language fell out of the semantics of provided instructions rather than externally imposed limitations. 17:56:32 yeah 17:57:19 * oerjan once pondered how to do reversible jumps in a way that didn't depend on a jump target having to be a jump itself 17:57:38 Phantom_Cuber: Burro has some neat constructs, but reversible brainfuck pulled off the whole "set of programs form a group under concatenation" thing better IMO 17:58:20 oerjan: is it possible? 17:58:25 i love how 17:58:26 that's similar. i thought you could have jump flag, which was toggled by the jump instruction. if the target wasn't an instruction toggling the jump flag, the machine would just _keep on_ jumping 17:58:27 f(x) = x+y 17:58:28 and 17:58:30 f(x) = x-y 17:58:32 erm 17:58:34 f(x,y) = x+y 17:58:35 and 17:58:36 f(x,y) = x-y 17:58:38 don't count as "reversible" 17:58:39 but 17:58:43 f(x,y) = (x+y, x-y) 17:58:43 does 17:58:45 it could even have a delay for pipelining 17:59:29 a sort of "you cannot change the jump countdown if it is between -N and N" 17:59:37 and at 0 you jump 17:59:42 alise: or f(x,y)=(x,x+y) or (y,x+y) 17:59:56 quintopia: yeah 18:00:24 oerjan: i'm not following 18:00:44 quintopia: the simple version with just a flag, or the pipelining version? 18:01:08 i'm guessing the flag thing is like unto Burro's implicit loop? 18:01:13 explain better 18:01:14 :D 18:01:17 that could be 18:01:33 now if i buy the single, i need a usb optical drive 18:01:55 usb optical drives r p cool dewds 18:02:13 oh wait 18:02:14 yeah but this is all for the sake of having a flac version rather than mp3 :) 18:02:21 you'd have a program counter as usual, and then a jump destination register. if at the end of an instruction the jump flag is set, then those two registers are switched 18:02:21 and 18:02:22 1 new from £76.95 18:02:24 never mind! 18:02:29 (that's for a SINGLE! on CD!) 18:02:35 (HOW) 18:02:39 you mean like a jump with offset instead of a jump to destination directly? 18:02:57 it doesn't have to be an offset 18:03:13 it _could_ be that instead, of course 18:03:13 oh i see 18:03:51 so you store the destination to jump back to in your main register before toggling the jump flag 18:04:03 yeah 18:04:21 what makes that reversible? 18:04:26 er minus the "back" 18:04:51 oh and the jump flag is _not_ toggled by the jumping itself 18:04:59 that's essential for reversibility 18:05:01 can someone *please* explain to me how on earth a CD single can cost £76.95 :) 18:05:35 but if the destination address contains an instruction toggling the jump flag, everything works as expected 18:06:03 hmm 18:06:11 hard to see what makes it reversible 18:06:15 what happens if it doesn't? 18:07:07 then after the destination instruction has been performed, since the jump flag is still set, the program counter and the destination register are switched _again_ 18:07:58 you'd essentially keep jumping back and forth every other instruction until something toggles the flag, i think 18:08:20 (the usual increment of program counter would apply as well, of course) 18:09:05 so the jump jumps to what was in the dest register BEFORE or AFTER swapping? 18:09:24 you could also include a flag for reversing execution direction in this, that's useful for "cascades" which compute something, store the result then uncompute again to save memory 18:09:50 quintopia: AFTER swapping the program counter _is_ the old destination register 18:10:11 jumping is just changing the program counter, after all 18:10:24 so you're swapping the PC with the dest register 18:10:40 makes more sense 18:11:30 so what if i want to jump from A to B then from B+6 to C? how does that look in the reversed version? 18:13:21 well after unperforming instruction C, presumably the destination register will contain B+7, and the jump flag is set, so it is swapped with the PC, which is then decremented, the B+6 instruction un-unloaded, etc. 18:13:56 the B+6 instruction should toggle the flag, as should the B instruction 18:14:17 well all of those instructions mentioned need to toggle the flag 18:14:27 oh because they had to toggle it to begin with, they'll toggle it now too 18:14:32 yeah 18:14:34 yeah i think that works 18:14:40 so where's the language based on this? 18:14:52 nowhere, alas :D 18:15:01 EXACTLY 18:15:22 so what does the pipelined version do? 18:17:27 you'd have a jump preparation flag and a jump countdown register instead of just a jump flag 18:18:32 er call that jump countdown flag 18:19:08 while the JCF is set, the JCR is decremented after each instruction. when JCR=0 swap as above. 18:20:33 the pipelining is effected by some additional restrictions: you can only toggle the JCF when JCR is _outside_ some [-N,N] interval, and you can only change the JCR explicitly when the JCF is off, and never to a value in [-N,N] 18:21:10 this prevents all changing of scheduled jumps that are within a too short distance 18:22:46 whether this would be very useful is another question 18:22:49 so you write a program that knows when it is going to jump so that it can put the branch instruction into the pipeline in advance? 18:23:18 yeah, and so it can load instructions at the destination in advance as well 18:23:31 because it knows in good time when it will switch over 18:26:22 "bf2kayak.pl is a Brainfuck-to-Kayak compiler, written in Perl. I haven't tested it carefully, but it works with some simple programs. I hope this will resolve any lingering doubts as to the Turing-completeness of Kayak." 18:26:41 (from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/kayak/doc/kayak.html) 18:28:18 anyway, later 18:28:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:32:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:32:31 What is wrong with the log program? 18:33:02 It died under mysterious circumstances. 18:33:16 Today's file is there, but empty. 18:34:40 Perhaps if they did it like how CthulhuIRCd does the log, it might work better, but I don't know for sure. 18:35:17 (i.e. on the server side) 18:35:42 http://filebin.ca/qfbjap/zzo38.txt this is the last ~24 hours 18:36:41 quintopia: Well, it is a bit different format than the clog 18:37:00 It is also a different timezone 18:37:38 well forgive me for not being perfect 18:37:48 it's eastern daylight time 18:37:52 convert it in your head 18:38:12 That's OK. 18:38:19 I am just mentioning that the format is different. 18:38:34 GMT-4 iirc 18:38:45 i mean 18:38:48 UTC-4 18:38:52 GMT-5 18:39:27 OK 18:39:55 Is there an open-source APL-alike? 18:43:18 This is another kind of IRC log format (so that you will not get mixed up with timezones): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL 18:43:49 hahah 18:43:51 oh man 18:43:55 cjb 18:43:57 old school 18:44:28 quintopia: not that old school, they only offered redirection way back right? 18:44:34 whereas that points to zzo38's actual computer afaik 18:44:43 so dns 18:45:16 they've been doing dns for years too 18:46:01 zzo38, incidentally, did anyone else express their displeasure with the addition of Dottyweb to articles? 18:46:31 i did 18:46:34 well 18:46:39 i dunno if i got around to saying so on the talk page 18:46:40 Phantom_Cuber: No. Nobody expressed anything about the addition of Dottyweb to articles. (Although I did put it in the summary text so that you can complain on the Talk page) 18:46:52 zzo38: can i be lazy and complain here? 18:47:21 i'd be fine with it if we had a discussion about it first and agreed on it 18:47:22 alise: You can, but that won't affect my decision unless you complain on the Talk page. 18:47:37 i'm not going to complain in one specific place just because you want me to... 18:47:42 And then we can have a proper discussion about it with everyone else on the wiki at any time. 18:48:03 generally the discussion comes before the change 18:48:11 alise: It does not have to be on a specific Talk page, just put your complaints in any wiki page that is relevant. 18:48:45 zzo38, IRC is better for discussions. 18:49:12 i don't mind a discussion on the wiki, but i don't think i should have to initiate it, as i didn't make the changes 18:50:34 OK, I will initiate the discussion on the page of the wiki instead, though. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Help_talk:Dottyweb 18:50:43 Is that sufficient? 18:50:54 Sure, I'll write some sort of reply. 18:51:01 It should suffice. 18:51:41 OK 18:54:01 zzo38: I have added a comment, and so has Phantom_Cuber. 18:55:18 alise: pong 18:55:43 coppro: am I in time for mathNEWS? 18:56:36 yes 18:56:45 coppro: how long do I have? :P 18:56:49 you have at least 30 more hours 18:57:28 coppro: oh, it's assembled on Monday, not Sunday? 18:57:39 i thought monday was just when you guys printed it or whatever 18:58:21 Monday is the writing/proofing night, then the editors spend Tuesday doing layout and Wednesday it gets sent to the printer 18:58:27 Friday it gets released 18:59:02 oh, that's much more time than I thought, then 18:59:17 I thought Sunday was a crazy day of proofing and layout and Monday it was sent to the printer, from what you said 18:59:41 ah, no 19:00:39 did you get my link to the draft? i'm not sure whether i've got my crazyML right :) 19:00:41 (yesterday) 19:01:03 I will stop adding the {{.file| templates to things that I did not write myself. (If you think it should be removed from the other pages that I did not add it to, please do so yourself.) 19:01:11 zzo38: Okay. 19:01:59 alise: I did, but I have not read it 19:02:06 OK. 19:02:08 and I do not have time right now. I have to go sort boardgames 19:02:16 A mammoth task. 19:02:54 indeed 19:08:58 I would like to know if there is any other IRC software that does channel log on the server. 19:09:41 zzo38: cmeme used to 19:09:43 but then it dieded 19:09:45 botte does 19:09:46 >_> 19:10:13 lambdabot, not you, I suppose? 19:10:48 lambdabot doesn't; nor fungot or EgoBot or HackEgo 19:10:48 alise: oh. what'd he want? 19:10:50 just clog and botte 19:11:11 I don't think any of those are IRC servers that do server-side logging, which is what I think was asked. 19:11:34 Oh, look. TV Tropes continues its march towards formal bureaucracy. 19:11:35 Based on the earlier thing about CthulhuIRCd. 19:11:39 But I might misinterpret. 19:11:39 fizzie: Yes it is what I ask 19:11:53 "This is based on opinion. 19:11:54 Please don't list it on a work's page as a trope. Examples can go here. " This is on the Crazy Awesome page. 19:12:17 There was no problem with that in trope listings. 19:12:35 Phantom_Cuber: :'( 19:12:47 Phantom_Cuber: If it depresses you, browse WardsWiki a bit. 19:12:50 It cheers anyone up. 19:12:55 Well, any hopeless programming nerd. 19:13:06 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki I even clickified it for you! 19:14:03 -!- lament has joined. 19:17:04 dear #esoteric: who wants me to document Hofstadter's typogenetics on the wiki? 19:18:34 quintopia: I do. 19:21:31 i will do it if two more people respond 19:21:58 Typogenetics? 19:22:20 I want to know what it is, so I suppose that's a "yes". 19:24:00 OK, Nightmare Fuel is now classified as a subjective trope. 19:24:11 i.e. it shouldn't be listed on the articles for works. 19:24:13 what 19:24:56 @type div 19:24:57 forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a 19:25:13 Phantom_Cuber: xDDD 19:25:18 quintopia: is that the TNT stuff? 19:25:19 if so, sure 19:25:28 quintopia: make sure to use the proper unicode though... at least i think he used some non-ASCII stuff 19:25:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:25:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:25:47 alise, the whole subjective trope list is depressing. 19:26:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:26:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:26:07 Phantom_Cuber: Who runs the thing, anyway? 19:26:08 "So Bad It's Good" 19:26:12 Not even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Tropes lists. 19:26:16 *says. 19:26:31 I have no idea. 19:26:31 Phantom_Cuber: truly depressing 19:26:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:26:36 TV Tropes is not Wiipedia! 19:26:38 *Wikipedia! 19:27:17 Complete Monster. Adaptation Decay. 19:27:26 Phantom_Cuber: stop it. stop. 19:27:31 Phantom_Cuber: is Big Bad on there 19:27:33 please say yes 19:27:33 Jumping The Shark. 19:27:36 It's not. 19:27:36 morals aren't objective! 19:27:39 Phantom_Cuber: put it on 19:28:09 Nightmare Fuel and its relatives. 19:28:15 But not Fetish Fuel. 19:28:24 Moral Event Horizon. 19:28:31 Sequelitis. 19:28:51 Crowning Moment Of Awesome is thankfully not. 19:28:58 The Wesley. 19:29:04 Phantom_Cuber: LET'S FORK IT! (no) 19:29:07 Unfortunate Implications. 19:29:14 Tear Jerker. 19:29:25 I hate my life. 19:29:37 It's Popular, Now It Sucks. 19:29:47 TV Tropes: It's popular, now it sucks. 19:29:50 Which is *about the fandom's reaction*, not the work itself. 19:30:31 Wait... 19:30:39 There are categories. 19:31:05 The Momentipelago is in them. 19:31:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:31:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:31:26 As is Fetish Fuel. 19:31:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:31:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:31:46 Magnificent Bastard. 19:31:49 Large Ham. 19:33:29 I should stop this. 19:33:38 MAGNIFICENT BASTARD IS SUBJECTIVE? 19:33:41 EVERY FUCKING THING IS SUBJECTVIE!!!! 19:33:44 Apparently. 19:35:16 Fast Eddie seems to have something to do with this. 19:35:25 He is one of the 3 founders AFAIK. 19:36:19 alise: TNT is not a programming language per se. it has no imperative element to it. 19:36:57 typogenetics is the programming language designed to model the complexity of DNA/RNA/proteins 19:36:59 quintopia, wha..? 19:37:08 Aaaah. 19:37:29 quintopia: oh that one 19:37:37 quintopia: also, many languages have no imperative element. 19:37:41 such as the lambda calculus 19:38:30 they usually have some implicit imperative element though 19:38:47 even if they don't... 19:38:48 like "evaluate this function by name" 19:38:49 Phantom_Cuber: [[Works for a major videogame producer as a hackist. Which is why he never goes into the Videogames section. Ever. 19:38:49 About to be fired unless he starts doing more matrix-algebraic hackitation than Tropering.]] 19:38:52 Phantom_Cuber: IRRITATING USE OF HACK 19:38:57 quintopia: that's a model in an imperative universe 19:38:59 not the language itself 19:39:26 alise, never trust someone who actually calls themselves a hacker. 19:39:32 And is less than 40. 19:39:33 alise: no, but it is an imperative element of the universe in which the language finds itself 19:40:00 TNT on the other hand is in a universe purely dreamed of for the declaration and specification of theorems 19:40:03 Phantom_Cuber: Or is Eric S. Raymond. 19:40:13 not for the specification of algorithms to decide them 19:40:24 quintopia: i think you're wrong but whatever, it's irrelevant :P 19:40:25 alise, that's the Fundamental Theorem of Trustworthiness. 19:41:09 alise: do you draw any line between "programming language" and "formal system for typographic manipulation"? 19:41:29 from a page he links: 19:41:33 "Irish Travellers are not Gypsies, yet they are often called so by Gadjo (non-Gypsies)." 19:41:34 alise: the code paragraphs are indented 19:41:40 quintopia: not really. maybe. bleh, whatever 19:41:44 coppro: the code paragraphs aren't 19:41:46 
 is not 

19:42:00  coppro: or, are you actually testing with the system or something?
19:42:21  no, I was just looking at the previous issue
19:43:03  coppro: oh, right, i see
19:43:09  coppro: is the "print" line indented?
19:43:11  beyond the while statement
19:44:04  (also, is it actually shown as monospaced??)
19:54:56  coppro: bah! busy sorting board games no doubt
19:55:43 -!- lament has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:57:10  Are you mad that I put too much money in your tea?
19:58:07  Indeed!
19:58:23  Yes, I like my tea to be cheap.
19:59:14  How can I drink my tea with all this money in it?
19:59:17  HOW?
20:00:17  take the money out
20:00:18  drink
20:00:29  But you can't put money in tea!
20:00:29  spend the money on more tea
20:00:35  It destroys the flavour!
20:01:08 -!- iGO has joined.
20:01:36  what if the money is made of . . .tea leaves?
20:01:46  Money is filthy, teaming with germs
20:02:06  Listen to he who flips.
20:02:12  [teeming]
20:02:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:02:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:04:31  alise, incidentally, today's top story in the Edinburgh Evening News:
20:04:45  "CITY SET TO RIP UP TRAM CONTRACT"
20:05:19  Phantom_Cuber: do they like the trams or not
20:05:28  They *HATE* trams.
20:05:47  Where normal tabloids have pedos, the EEN has trams.
20:05:56  Searching "tram" on their site:
20:06:04  "TRAM ROW GOES INTERNATIONAL"
20:06:08  :D
20:06:10  Link me to this site
20:06:12  It sounds amazing
20:06:22  "TRAM BOSSES HAVE NO PLANS TO REPAIR CRACKED FOUNDATIONS"
20:06:41  "TRAM WARS AS GERMAN CONTRACTOR WALKS OFF THE JOB"
20:07:02  "TRAM BOSSES DEFEND 'SCANDALOUS' EXPENSES"
20:07:10  Phantom_Cuber: <3
20:07:20  http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/
20:07:31  It's a bundle of awful tabloid journalism.
20:07:50  Search for "council":
20:08:01  "MEETING QUESTIONS SNUBBED AT COUNCIL MEETING"
20:08:09  "TRAM SHIFTS FOR POPE"
20:08:14  I played D&D game a few days ago, I try to win without making anyone else dead, I already managed to avoid kill the mindflayer and to sabotage the bell, now we can convince them the god Mask is dead
20:09:03  Many people do not like this kind of game they prefer to kill everyone and to avoid too much complicated ideas
20:09:23  At one point they talked about the dangerous level of carbon given off by tram works.
20:09:45  The comments are pretty fun as well.
20:10:11  zzo38: I prefer to kill everyone in real life.
20:10:11  Seem to be a lot of quotes from tories.
20:10:24  "OWN GOAL FOR COMPUTER GAMES FAN ROBBED OF NEW TITLE WITHIN MINUTES"
20:10:39  Phantom_Cuber: what xD
20:10:49  IT MAKES NO SENSE
20:11:00  alise: O, you prefer to kill everyone in real life? Include you?
20:11:14  zzo38: Yes; me after everyone else.
20:11:17  Canada is next on my list.
20:11:18  alise, not one paragraph in that article is more than a sentence long.
20:11:27  Phantom_Cuber: Do link. Before you die.
20:11:39  It is a thing to behold.
20:11:44  http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Own-goal-for-computer-games.6562082.jp
20:11:46  .jp?
20:11:58  It's Japanese!
20:12:02  Or Java Page? Who knows.
20:12:22  "GIRLS WHO LEAVE SCHOOL EARLY MISSING OUT ON VITAL CANCER JAB"
20:12:26  I play D&D game try to don't kill everyone, is more interesting than the other way, isn't it?
20:12:46  Phantom_Cuber: CANCER jab???? What
20:12:51  zzo38: Yes. But in real life...
20:12:57  The HPV jab.
20:13:21  Phantom_Cuber: lawwwl
20:13:31  The people may be the biggest problem in real life, but that doesn't mean it is one that ought to be fixed. (At least not for another million years or so, if ever)
20:14:11  "JUNGLE TRIP ASHLEY CAUGHT IN UPRISING"
20:14:38  SO, WORMS!
20:14:46  zzo38: Too late, I am already doing so.
20:15:32 -!- augur has joined.
20:15:57  A new 2D Worms game for the PC.
20:16:08  The day, I saw thought, never.
20:16:37  "TEAR UP TRAMS CONTRACT, DEMAND CRITICS"
20:16:45  LESS TRAMS MORE WORMS
20:18:19  alise is making better nonsense than the newspaper
20:18:34  quintopia: Only nonsense to the uninformed, my friend!
20:19:04  "The day, I saw thought, never." this makes no sense to anyone informed or not
20:19:13  Rearrange it.
20:19:43  "Never thought I saw the day?"
20:19:57  it's still not a very good sentence
20:20:04  Well, you know what I mean. :P
20:22:11  Ceefax will end in 2012!
20:22:27  This is obviously the catastrophe the Mayans predicted!
20:28:11  Phantom_Cuber: NO
20:30:25 -!- ehird has joined.
20:30:46  hi
20:32:04 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
20:32:25  that was not me.
20:32:54  Phantom_Cuber: quintopia: was that you?
20:33:15  'Twasn't me.
20:33:24 * Sgeo is not that evil
20:33:38  Unless I said something like "This isn't actually ehird"
20:34:44  um
20:34:44  nope
20:34:45  not me
20:35:08  but i just walked into the kitchen and somehow i've got a really tasty spice smell on my fingers now
20:36:41  Who wants to give me lot sof money?!
20:36:57  the government!
20:37:06  nope :P
20:37:13  did anyone whois that ehird when it was online?
20:37:34  * ehird (d55ec16e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.94.193.110) has joined #esoteric
20:37:44  If that's any help
20:39:55 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
20:40:54  it means he used webchat
20:40:59  aka zero help
20:43:48  There's the IP, though; a hotel in Dublin.
20:44:06  s/in/around/
20:44:35  that sounds hard to fake, but useless for identification
20:50:01  check this out: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1xMe6RAsshEhAfbyrJQggLZV6-buMvZFYCj-v9N-uGE6nphQm_Iw2rw5IulhV&hl=en&authkey=CO78idQG
20:52:53  Aw, the name *was* in use, then! (Re the "Grasp" draft at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie I sketched.)
20:55:49  Why are there so few languages that look nice when printed?
20:56:41  Phantom_Cuber: Because.
20:56:43  Fortress!
20:57:14  I've never been able to get Fortress working...
20:58:05  Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released?
20:58:07  IMPOSSIBLE
20:59:35   So, I got that Feather spec and implementation finished.
21:00:25  Evening News: "FORTH BRIDGE PAINTING COMPLETED"
21:00:50  Stallman: "Hey guys! The HURD is finished! Now stop using that silly Linux thing."
21:01:12 -!- comex has changed nick to TheLastPOPE.
21:01:15  fizzie: the major flaw with the spec i linked that i commented on to the authors when i first read it last year was that it didn't have the property you specify in your sketch
21:01:33  fizzie: in particular, i would love to see a merging of your idea and the ideas in the above spec
21:02:06 -!- TheLastPOPE has changed nick to comex.
21:02:26   Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released? ;; it is
21:02:35  comex: The past elope.
21:03:01  Duke Nukem Forever's nonexistence has been a constant for as long as I have particularly cared!
21:03:08  What will I believe in now??
21:03:31  fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use.
21:04:46  I still want to do that "FSM in a planar graph with one storage module" idea...
21:05:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:05:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:06:15  Wherein some form of network transmission protocol would have to be implemented.
21:10:57   fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use.
21:11:00  that is NOT a good thing :D
21:16:06 * Phantom_Cuber wonders how one would perform subgraph matching in Prolog.
21:16:22  alise: just pointing out how hard it is to be original when creating languages
21:16:43  Phantom_Cuber: wut
21:16:52  they are different enough in this case that a small modification would give them a lot of merit
21:17:37  alise, for Eodermdrome.
21:17:48  what's a subgraph in this context?
21:17:53  oh right
21:22:36  alise: BTW, flac -f --best
21:22:45  pikhq: I did that.
21:22:48  alise: That decodes and reëncodes, preserving metadata
21:22:51  Oh, okay then.
21:22:51  pikhq: It ended up *bigger* somehow
21:22:54  pikhq: Well
21:22:57  Actually I piped decode to encode
21:23:00  But somehow the output was actually bigger
21:23:03  So they must have done something crazy
21:23:10  Odd.
21:27:23  pikhq: So, how much would you rage if the only copy you could find of something was an MP3?
21:27:25  Literally.
21:27:27  All over the internet.
21:27:48  alise: I currently have a lot of rage because of that.
21:27:51  pikhq: Also, how about it has the same title as an album by the same band, so you can't search easily?
21:27:54  ARE YOU FEELING THE FUCKING PAIN
21:28:03  And how about a new copy of a CD it's on is over seventy fucking pounds?
21:28:08  (Used for less, but STILL.)
21:29:38  pikhq: ARE YOU FEELING THE LOVE
21:29:45  Fek
21:29:56 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:30:03  Hi :-)
21:30:52  hallo
21:31:07  WHY CAN I NOT WATCH FUTURAMA
21:31:16  i think you have been here before but not since i have been here
21:31:16  IT BURNS WITH A FIRE WITHIN ME
21:32:38 * Phantom_Cuber ponders simply torrenting it.
21:34:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:35:08  Phantom_Cuber, hmm?
21:35:36  Sgeo, you just *try* finding a UK channel that shows it.
21:36:13  Phantom_Cuber: I suggest torrenting it.
21:36:13 * Sgeo tends to look for websites :/
21:36:22  Phantom_Cuber: has a TC machine with planar FSM and single infinite storage module not already been done somewhere?
21:36:26  pikhq, OK.
21:36:34  quintopia, not sure...
21:36:45  That's the solution to most TV, in fact.
21:36:54  i seem to recall the strong wire-crossing hypothesis being pretty much busted (rule 110 a counterexample?)
21:36:54  pikhq, should I start at series 1?
21:36:59  Phantom_Cuber: Very yes.
21:37:08  so i feel like it must have been done by now
21:37:12  Phantom_Cuber: If you don't download the largest filesize option in all cases I will murder you.
21:37:18  quintopia: it's not totally killed yet
21:37:25  alise, ...
21:37:41  Phantom_Cuber: KWALITEE
21:37:51  I'll murder you, and your little dog too!
21:37:51  Hmm. Invader Zim ISO dumps. Highly tempting.
21:38:26  How do you watch so much TV?
21:38:28  (I'm picky about my encodes, mmkay?)
21:38:41  Fullscreen Flash outside of YouTube is failing HARD
21:39:18  Awesome!
21:39:27  I get to hear the audio of an episode without any video!
21:39:29  [[What we're avoiding
21:39:29  sprintf() breaking in PHP]] --definition of Perl Kwalitee
21:39:32  what the hell does that mean?
21:39:34  Grrrrr
21:39:35  pikhq, incidentally, is there a nice way to schedule the torrent?
21:39:55  I'd like to watch them in the appropriate order, rather than getting all of the episodes after a long time.
21:42:43 * pikhq fetches some freaking DVD dumps of Invader Zim just to encode them properly
21:43:27  Phantom_Cuber: Not really.
21:43:39  Phantom_Cuber: BitTorrent is inherently you-get-random-data, basically.
21:43:43  :(
21:43:44  You CAN do it, manually, but it won't work well.
21:43:47  And other clients will hate you.
21:43:51  Phantom_Cuber: Just download season 1 first...
21:43:55  It won't take that long.
21:44:08  Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"?
21:44:15  Phantom_Cuber never saw Futurama?
21:44:21  Also, there are websites >.>
21:44:44  Sgeo, I understand this, but it was just never relevant.
21:45:40 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:46:03 * pikhq also deletes some shitty movies that won't ever get watched again
21:46:37  Oh, and inexplicable 4:3 cropped rips of movies.
21:46:46  Rather gouge out my eyes than watch those.
21:48:02 * Phantom_Cuber notes that all of the major British channels have some sort of online catchup service.
21:50:36   Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"? ;; this makes no sense
21:50:54  Probably not.
21:54:28 -!- Harpyon has joined.
21:58:45  So wait, how would you do the subgraph matching in Prolog?
22:05:47 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:06:30 -!- wareya has joined.
22:08:31 -!- augur has joined.
22:10:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:17:11  Somebody needs to make an MMO in the style of adventure games like King's Quest.'
22:22:52  Anyone use Tcl?
22:23:52 * pikhq 
22:24:40  I can't get TclRobots running on ActivestateTcl for Windows :-(
22:27:53  Then what you really need is somebody who uses both Tcl and Windows, innit? :P
22:28:53  Windows is pain and agony.
22:30:11  I'll try it on Linux when I get chance
22:32:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:14 * pikhq vomits at the quality of one of the series on his hard drive
22:32:31 -!- augur has joined.
22:32:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:33:15  720p, encoded at a lower bitrate than I do for DVD rips.
22:33:30  I get that h264 is good, but it's not *that* good.
22:35:46 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
22:36:23 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:40:42  night
22:40:46  →
22:51:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:34 -!- augur has joined.
22:55:12 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined.
22:59:15  If you have large capacity disk to store a video, you can store uncompressed video by converting a NTSC or PAL signal to a digital file.
23:00:51 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[reading.
23:00:54 -!- augur[reading has changed nick to augur[reading].
23:04:59  zzo38: That's pretty ridiculous, though.
23:05:29  Especially when you consider that with video, there's generally already been tons of generation loss.
23:13:05  How many mathematical symbols do you need to write whatever article you are writing? Computer Modern contains many, we probably don't need a lot of other ones, but some of the symbols in WEBMATH are I design that might be used in mathematics, such as blackboard bold, therefore sign, alternate empty set,
23:13:42  which others are common enough to include? Probably many can just be composed from overlapping and arranging other characters in Computer Modern and WEBMATH combined, using various commands in TeX.
23:15:25 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:18:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:22:08  fungot, is clog still deaD?
23:22:08  Phantom_Cuber: i thought you'd be better at playing a gay vampire. and i do believe it's time for my medicine!
23:22:12  *dead
23:22:19  Eeeeeew...
23:23:12  fungot, whence the need for medicine?
23:23:12  olsner: that's right. no. no fucking way.
23:23:58  ^style
23:23:58  Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
23:24:08  Ahhh.
23:24:25  hmm?
23:24:47  Phantom_Cuber: Why aren't you better at playing a gay vampire?
23:25:24  I'm terrible at roleplay.
23:26:36  "Helloth for everyone! How are you all, my thweet guestth? [pops out fangs] Ah, that's better."
23:26:45  IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE GAY PEOPLE LISP
23:28:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:29:00  Hi ais523.
23:29:27  hi alise
23:31:29  ais523, in response to the recent announcement of the immanent completion of Duke Nukem Forever, do you plan to complete the spec for Feather?
23:31:44  Phantom_Cuber: not today, I'm busy in RL
23:31:55  Baaah.
23:33:40  pikhq: Are you anal enough to purchase releases unavailable online in FLAC solely to correct this injustice?
23:33:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:34:14 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:35:45  assuming it was really imm_a_nent, i wouldn't put _too_ much importance on it ;D
23:36:07  'of a mental act performed entirely within the mind; "a cognition is an immanent act of mind"'
23:36:19  alise: No, but only due to lack of expendable funds.
23:36:21  Imminent?
23:36:29  Effing homophones.
23:36:49  pikhq: But you can get a used CD for like ... like £3-£5!
23:36:51  (Of it.)
23:36:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Client Quit).
23:37:18  pikhq: Actually £8.99 BUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
23:37:45  What I'm saying is: Public duty.
23:38:51 -!- augur[reading] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:40:01  alise: Except when what you're missing is obscure.
23:40:08 * Phantom_Cuber → sleep
23:40:43  pikhq: No, there is an actual item for £8.99 in this case.
23:40:49  Ah.
23:41:25  pikhq: Therefore FIX THE UNIVERSE
23:41:42  yeah _someone_ better fix it
23:41:52  maaaan
23:41:57  i have enjoyed myself today.
23:41:59  pikhq: DO YOU AGREE
23:42:11 * pikhq hates US jury selection
23:42:19  pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny
23:43:10  he _could_ say he is fundamentally against the concept of punishment, the prosecutors would probably through him out :D
23:43:15  (iiuc)
23:43:26  *throw
23:43:38  oerjan: No, I'm not actually selected for jury duty, I'm just hating how we go about choosing jurors.
23:44:18 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:44:22  Notable properties include that for any capital cases, jurors opposed to a death sentence are summarily removed from the jury pool.
23:44:27 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:44:41  ...that was sort of what i was alluding to
23:45:04  Keep in mind that we have a civil law system, wherein the jurors opinions *can in fact set law*.
23:45:30  IIRC, you can refuse to accept the notion that the judge sets what information is and isn't admissable for the jury to hear
23:45:36  as in, they ask you whether you accept that notion or not
23:45:45  I'm not entirely sure what happens if you say no
23:45:50  (this is in the US)
23:45:59  Also, being aware of jury nullification gets you thrown out.
23:46:43  in the UK, jury selection's a lot more determined; they take the first 12 people selected at random, unless there's a really strong reason why they shouldn't judge that trial
23:46:50  such as being related to one of the witnesses or defendants
23:46:54  ais523: See, that would be sane.
23:47:01  or a member of a particular ancient order of lighthouse-keepers
23:47:27  But here, if you are aware that you can rule against the law & evidence because you find it unjust to do so, *you cannot be in a jury*.
23:47:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:48:53  pikhq: I'm aware
23:49:03  If you personally try to inform a jury of this ability in court, *they have to select a new jury*.
23:49:07  It is so very fucked up.
23:49:31  I've been following the SCO v Novell transcripts, one of them was of the jury selection
23:50:01  Makes a farce of the whole court system if you ask me.
23:51:57 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:51:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:51:59 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
23:52:01   pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny ;; I mean the music
23:52:21  "n 2001, a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving statutory rape led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law."
23:53:01  What the hell is the *point* of a jury if they cannot have an opinion on the law?
23:54:02  pikhq: the law is written by lobbyists; a majority of 12 random people tend to not be lobbyists
23:54:08  pikhq: the US is a country based on ignoring its founding principles
23:54:12  the end
23:54:15  thus they are not competent to decide what the law is
23:54:47  NO ALISE
23:54:56  USA is a country based on COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
23:55:05  ais523: Yeah, fuck the lobbyists with a chainsaw.
23:55:43  Satutory rape... That would be real good source of cases where "not guilty" verdict would be right thing to do.
23:57:26  what if it were your daughter
23:57:52  cheater99: You realise *statutory* rape is consensual sex, right?
23:57:59  That wouldn't change what was the right thing to do.
23:58:18  but children can't consent to sex
23:58:46  s/children/17 year and 364 day olds/ :P
23:59:05  in the UK, they go to real lengths to protect the jurors
23:59:06  Might also get some talking to, but that's not matter of law.
23:59:14  it's illegal to record their faces, for instance
23:59:51  photography's banned in courtrooms; it is legal to make a /painting/ of a court in session, but the artist needs to arrange things such that the jurors' faces can't be seen, normally by conveniently putting a handrail or something in the way
23:59:58  ais523: So... You guys actually have juries as a matter of fact, rather than as a body to delegate the judge's opinion onto.

2010-10-04:

19:54:49 -!- clog has joined.
19:54:49 -!- clog has joined.
19:57:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:59:29  clog!
19:59:49  clog: KEEP CLOGGIN' DEM TUBES
19:59:55  10.10.0303-Oct-2010 00:00 0
19:59:58  The day that did not exist.
19:59:59 -!- baschtl has joined.
20:00:07  hallo
20:00:08  hi baschtl
20:00:16  good timing, our channel logger just cam eback
20:00:18  *came back
20:00:54  channel logger?
20:01:03  yes.
20:01:05  clog.
20:01:11  it watches. everything. and puts it on the web.
20:01:21  yes
20:01:21  like CCTV, except fluffier
20:01:28  yay clog is back
20:01:34  BEST DAY EVER
20:01:59  the timeline must be preserved!
20:02:38  alise: go send in your put-together logs
20:02:39 -!- baschtl has left (?).
20:02:54  yorick: that is unlikely to have any effect. clog runs entirely without administration.
20:03:06  then who fixed it
20:03:11  probably some other channel's denizens yelled in #tunes until it came back. or my email to Faré was actually received
20:03:17  clog runs completely unadministrated, but tunes.org doesn't
20:03:29  so someone just restarted it i guess
20:03:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
20:03:59  I think it's scary
20:04:04 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:04:12  yorick: what, clog?
20:04:17  ya, clog
20:04:28  no way -- logreading is our national pastime
20:04:35  you shouldn't say anything really stupid on irc anyway
20:04:45  although even if you claim to have murdered someone, nobody's likely to believe you anyway
20:04:46  why not?
20:04:54  yorick: because even if logs aren't public, people log.
20:05:04  but what if I claim I warezed stuff
20:05:17  I don't care about other people
20:05:21  I do care about google
20:05:22  "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, --" I don't think we really do that latter part, and I'm not sure how that should be done. On the other hand, we're not exactly model freenode citizens anyway, what with the single-# thing and all.
20:05:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:05:28 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:05:56  what's with the single-# thing?
20:05:57  fizzie: I don't think any channel does that.
20:06:04  C does it
20:06:06  yorick: you're meant to have two #s if you don't own the thing your channel is named after
20:06:15  ah :)
20:06:16  for instance, the C committee could register #c, but not a random group of C users
20:06:20  omg you stupid people :P
20:06:30  yorick: this channel predates that policy by *many* years
20:06:31  you can't own "esoteric"
20:06:34  i believe it even predates the name freenode
20:06:38  that's what i was gonna say -- nobody owns esotericity anyway
20:06:43  so it's not really a big deal at al
20:06:44  *all
20:07:05  but how can I make comments without logging
20:07:06  Yes, but even if it's a non-ownable thing, it should go to the ## namespace according to them guidelines. Not that anyone cares.
20:07:22  yorick: You should make them somewhere else, then, I gather.
20:08:12  yorick: /msg someone and hope they don't say it in-channel
20:08:35  yorick, how does ##c implement it?
20:08:45  or was that just the ## thing?
20:08:57   or was that just the ## thing
20:09:00  just the ##
20:09:09  (plenty of languages answer questions by restating it without questioning)
20:09:14  (my laziness knows no bounds)
20:09:24  (typing "yes" is a chore)
20:09:30  I am tempted to say "if you prefix your messages with your nickserv password, it's not shown to us but clog will ignore them".
20:09:44  But maybe that wouldn't be entirely believable.
20:10:35  I think Graue could make a case for owning the channel
20:10:38  but I don't think he's interested
20:10:40  "it's not shown to us but clog will ignore them"
20:10:41  i would answer "bindun"
20:10:42  alise: no way
20:10:44  we predate the wiki
20:10:49  alise: such as latin
20:10:52  alise: agreed, but the wiki's the website with that name
20:10:52  also, it isn't about who owns the channel
20:10:53  alise, that made sense, just not obviously
20:10:55  alise: stop highlighting yourself
20:10:57  it's about who owns the concept itself
20:10:59  alise: latin doesn't even have a word for "yes"
20:11:00  *ais523:
20:11:11  >nickserv< ghost quintopia bindun
20:11:12  -NickServ- quintopia is not a registered nickname.
20:11:13  quintopia: do you happen to have an hilight on "alice"
20:11:14  alise, he meant "(the password) is not shown to us, but clog will ignore (the lines)"
20:11:16  yorick: not a single word
20:11:21  yorick: if it would, it wouldn't be effective
20:11:29  Vorpal: oh
20:11:35  alise: not a single word
20:11:36  Vorpal: that's not really a valid way of saying that :P
20:11:36  "in this way I confirm it" is the literal translation of the most common idiom to mean "yes" in Latin
20:11:39  yorick:  quintopia: do you happen to have an hilight on "alice"
20:11:40  alise, yes it wasn't very obvious :P
20:11:41  my name is not alice
20:11:47  alise, but it is the only way it made half-way sense
20:11:50  neither is mine!
20:11:55  what a coincidence
20:11:57  nobody's name is alice! NOBODY'S
20:11:59  ais523: sorry!
20:12:09  maybe i should register . . . >.>
20:12:09  quintopia: do you happen to have an hilight on "alise"?
20:12:13  ais523: do you have a highlight on "ais523", yorick?
20:12:13  alise: sorry
20:12:14  yorick: I was trying to make a joke, not accusing you
20:12:15  yorick: no
20:12:19  fizzie: fizzie!
20:12:21  I have higlights on quite a few obscure things
20:12:23  ais523: I ment alise:
20:12:27  but none of them are the nicks of other people in the channel
20:12:31  oklopol: what the heck does "ment" mean?
20:12:42  ais523: but you happen to have a name that has the same color as alises
20:12:47  alise, lets wait for what fizzie has to answer himself
20:12:59  yorick: that's nicely self-referential, mispinging in a misping apology effectively atones for itself
20:13:08  yorick: no, alise and Vorpal have the same color.  they are green, and ais523 is orange
20:13:16  actually, I'm black and alise is grey
20:13:18  ais523: "I resign as IADoP and Registar and go on hold." --Wooble, after comex transfers a prop from Wooble to comex after Keba posted an apologetic resignation and on-holding after Wooble tried to NoV em for not publishing a report
20:13:21  whereas vorpal is cyan
20:13:29  quintopia: vorpal is definately green...alise is orange too
20:13:33  ais523: do we actually have *conclusive* evidence that he's over 12?
20:13:38  alise: to be fair, it doesn't take much to cause Wooble to ragequit
20:13:42  I think it's just his playstyle
20:13:43  i'm orange and grey!
20:13:48  ais523: whinestyle :P
20:13:50  I'm kind-of surprised he didn't deregister
20:13:51  yorick: the only way to know what's it like to see via echolocation is to be a bat.
20:14:01  ais523: we need some sort of minimum on-hold time
20:14:07  it'd help prevent some sorts of scams too, I bet
20:14:08  The "it == password, them == lines" interpretation is correct, but I concur that it wasn't a very proper way.
20:14:22  wow, this channel's activity has exploded in the past minute or so
20:14:23  quintopia: I disagree; there are echolocation devices available that convert the data into a sense you do have
20:14:25  everyone is blue here. Apart from me, who is grey
20:14:27  and people can learn to use them
20:14:32  I just find nick colours confusing
20:14:39  because of the colour conflicts
20:14:40  because we said a few lines at once and the replies have forked way too many subprocesses...
20:14:40  alise: you can't win for a week after becoming active
20:14:42  Vorpal: you're green
20:14:45  which do happen quite often
20:14:51  alise: wow, forkbombing an IRC channel
20:14:54  that's pretty impressive
20:14:57  lol
20:14:58  ais523: there's a difference between what we perceive hearing a sondol and what a bat perceives getting an echo back
20:15:14  quintopia: not massively, it's the same data in a different encoding
20:15:15  this is a thought experiment much older than me
20:15:25  and encoding doesn't seem to be massively important in determining data fed to the brain
20:15:26  Astronaut missionaries!
20:15:32  alise: wut
20:15:38  how the hell did we get on to echolocation
20:15:39  it's not the data that matters.  it's the way we perceive it
20:15:42  ais523: You're sort of pukey-greenish-yellow, to be completely honest.
20:15:45  (e.g. if you give someone glasses which turn everything they see upside-down, after a while they'll see normally again
20:15:50  fizzie: dark yellow?
20:15:51  alise: synesthesia and quintopia
20:15:57  just as i perceive alise and Vorpal to be the same color, and yorick and fizzie to be the same color, while you don't
20:16:00   wow, this channel's activity has exploded in the past minute or so <-- correct, I can't keep up
20:16:02  ais523: light yellow.
20:16:14  "pukey-greenish-yellow" "dark yellow?"
20:16:20  dark yellow is a specific color
20:16:20  "that is also an acceptable name!"
20:16:20  ais523: #7d6025.
20:16:25  alise, get fizzie to write something to publish a life-feed of diagrams with short time tendencies
20:16:27  ah, OK
20:16:30  quintopia: I'm red...fizzie is light yellow, vorpal is green and alise is orange
20:16:31  say, updated every minute or so
20:16:32  not quite #808000, but relatively close
20:16:36  and ais523 is also orange.
20:16:40  ais523: damn you!
20:16:44  yorick: take that back!
20:16:50  ais523: stop being orange!
20:17:00  seriously, that's about the worst insult you can aim at anyone
20:17:04  ais523 is orange, i agree
20:17:14  it's a desire for the worst possible thing theoretically possible to happen to them
20:17:19  ais523: hmm...possibly... :/
20:17:28  ais523: let me rephrase
20:17:47   seriously, that's about the worst insult you can aim at anyone <-- what is?
20:17:50  ais523: damn the inconvenience caused by me percieving your nick and "alise" both as orange
20:17:53  Vorpal: "damn you"
20:17:55  ais523: sorry :)
20:17:56  oh
20:17:56  yorick: that's better
20:18:18  yay I killed the activity!
20:19:20  ais523, I perceive sex-related swearing as far worse than religion-related swearing in Swedish, but the opposite in English.
20:19:20  quintopia: but alise is also orange
20:19:28  ais523, just as a random data point
20:19:41  Vorpal: sex-related is generally worse in English too, but only for certain words
20:19:44  but I don't really understand that
20:19:56  randomly yelling "fuck" or whatever just makes no sense out of context, I can live with that
20:20:02  we dutch people have disease-related swearing
20:20:06  insults which have a meaning can be somewhat worse
20:20:18  ais523, "fuck you" seems a lot less worse than "damn you" in English, waaay the opposite in Swedish
20:20:19  "Fuck!" "Sure."
20:20:33  ais523: just out of curiosity, has anyone ever damned you and then not retracted it?
20:20:35  :)
20:20:37  Vorpal: it's actually the opposite in English too, for most people, but I don't understand it
20:20:56  alise: not that I can remember, most people are relatively considerate when they actually stop to think about what their words mean
20:21:06  :(
20:21:06  ais523, well it is a bit strange that "fuck you" would be less bad than "damn you" indeed.
20:21:22  ais523: I don't say it because I know you don't like it, but personally I have an understanding of the extreme non-literality of swear words...
20:21:36  what use is a word, if it has no meaning?
20:21:41  and goddam you is no worse than damn you
20:21:45  perhaps the god is implied
20:22:15  alise, same. But I do get a bit annoyed when people uses genital parts as swearing.
20:22:23  on the other hand, calling someone Satan is definitely stronger than calling them a dick
20:22:28  coppro: how am I doing for mathNEWS? >_>
20:22:33  Vorpal: Well, that just makes you a dick.
20:22:48  it makes him Satan
20:22:55  Stan
20:22:59  Vorpal: in English, which euphemism you use determines how strong the insult is
20:23:04  that has really moved from the original meaning
20:23:06  ais523, indeed
20:23:07  calling someone a vagina is just confusing, for instance
20:23:10  and "dick" is also a name
20:23:13  which is rather wtf
20:23:16  various euphemisms have various levels of insultingness
20:23:21  Vorpal: Stop dicking about.
20:23:26  dick, if spotted, is also a food stuff
20:23:33  and it isn't really a name nowadays, no sane parent gives it to their children as they'd never get through school without emotional scarring
20:23:43  alise, that is a bit more annoying
20:23:48  yet they continue to name their kids richard
20:23:52  ais523: nobody gets through school without emotional scarring.
20:23:53  and those kids grow up to be dick
20:24:04  alise: yes, but parents try to avoid obvious sources, most of the time
20:24:16  most of the time
20:24:27  but there was that one kid in my middle school named Mike Rapp
20:24:49  what a load of ke Rapp
20:25:06  ais523, hm indeed
20:25:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
20:25:56  quintopia, family name is harder to "work around"
20:26:11  Vorpal: don't name your kid michael.  easy.
20:27:07  quintopia, I wouldn't use an English name anyway
20:27:17  really!
20:27:20  do you think that might be because
20:27:22  YOU'RE SWEDISH
20:27:29  there's probably /someone/ in England named Arvid...
20:27:32  lol
20:27:32  alise, huh
20:27:38  alise, the thought never occurred to me
20:27:41  GASP
20:27:44  alise, you MIGHT HAVE A POINT!
20:27:52  alise, this is breaking news.
20:27:59 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:28:04  Hi :-)
20:28:06  ais523, probably
20:28:08 * yorick waves at PH
20:28:13  PH?
20:28:18  Phantom_Hoover_.
20:28:21  presumably Phantom_Hoover_
20:28:22  ah
20:28:24 * yorick waves at impomatic
20:28:27  also, I just tried to tab-complete "presumably"
20:28:32  Hey yorick :-)
20:28:34  i do that too
20:28:36  alise: Yeah, but here in AMERICA you can use ANY NAME
20:28:44  every time a word is more than five letters long, i try to tab it
20:28:45  I wondered where my wave was :-P
20:28:47  ais523, hm irc is taking over your brain
20:28:49  who lives in america anyways
20:28:51  Kathq'lyyn
20:28:57  impomatic: slightly delayed by the need to explain PH
20:28:58  Pronounced "John"
20:29:15  alise: I don't think there's even a legal requirement that it be in any known script.
20:29:29  pikhq: KLINGON NAME
20:29:30   ais523, probably ← I never could remember his first name...
20:29:40  Phantom_Hoover_, how is that hard?
20:29:42  I don't think I even know your first name
20:29:45  I know alise's, and mine
20:29:50  I would pronounce Kathq'lynn as kathy-klinn
20:29:52  NOÖNE KNOWS
20:30:01  Phantom_Hoover_, I mean, if it was "Sven-Åke" or some such it might be harder
20:30:02  ais523's first name is Aleæir'hiãé
20:30:08  Pronounced "alex"
20:30:09  hm that one is still easy
20:30:11  I bet no one knows mine
20:30:17  yorick: yorick
20:30:21  alise: shh
20:30:22  yorick: I bet /someone/ knows your name
20:30:25  your parents, for instance
20:30:27  or you yourself
20:30:28  XD
20:30:32  ais523: no one in this channel
20:30:34  Well, irssi betrayed me once and stuck my name in a whois, but NO MORE.
20:30:37  so lets see how this worked up
20:30:37  yorick: you're in this channel
20:30:46  updated gnome while gnome was still running
20:30:54  Vorpal: I'd restart it
20:31:02  hrrm
20:31:11  ais523: I know :P
20:31:14  Yup, Love Symbol #2 was Prince's *actual legal name* for a while.
20:31:24   Pronounced "alex" ← I have at various times thought it to be Alan and Adam.
20:31:42  yorick, I upgraded between old X and modular X.Org from inside an xterm
20:31:44  that was a while ago
20:31:46  worked well
20:31:53  Phantom_Hoover_: It's actually Alan-Aladdin-Adam.
20:31:56  took some time, due to running gentoo back then
20:32:03  Aladdam.
20:32:14  AWESOME NAME
20:32:14  hmm alise is pronounced alan?
20:32:20  "What's your name?" "ALADDAM"
20:32:30  aladdam sounds like saddam
20:32:32  yorick, no it is pronounced "Elliott"
20:32:37  Hmmm... I'm going to see if I can get TclRobots running on Linus
20:32:41  Huh. In the US, if you have *assumed* a name, then it can be considered as your legal name.
20:32:46  Linus EQU Linux
20:32:55  static const unsigned short p9[5] =
20:32:57      { 1, 9, 81, 729, 6561 };
20:33:02  pikhq, you can change name over here, iirc limited number of times
20:33:08  like, once
20:33:08  yorick, the number of letters is VERY IMPORTANT to him.
20:33:19  pikhq, that is legal name
20:33:20  Phantom_Hoover_: it's an him? :P
20:33:26  cpressey, please... please tell me that's not what I think it is.
20:33:30  family name follows different rules
20:33:31  yorick, he's contrarian.
20:33:36  Phantom_Hoover_: I can tell you that, sure!
20:33:40  I can tell you a lot of things!
20:33:41  I just had a new language idea.  It's called "Graue Sucks."  Whaddyathink?
20:33:53  Phantom_Hoover_: The sky is filled with plants.
20:33:56  Tell me it honestly.
20:33:58  Phantom_Hoover_: it's an he?
20:34:04  quintopia, implement it immediately.
20:34:14  alise: you're a he?
20:34:14  "it's an he"
20:34:15  yorick, yep.
20:34:16  ooh, that's given /me/ an esolang idea
20:34:18  Phantom_Hoover_, what do you think it is?
20:34:18  Least grammatically correct sentence ever.
20:34:20  yorick: nope
20:34:22  Phantom_Hoover_: Problem:  I don't know what you think it is.
20:34:24  Vorpal: We use common law to handle it. If you consider it your name, it is your name.
20:34:28  Maybe!
20:34:31 * yorick is confused
20:34:31  p=.5!
20:34:32  you get a set of people to start writing an interp
20:34:34  pikhq, heh.
20:34:38  p=3+7i!
20:34:41  p=-1!
20:34:45  they aren't aiming anywhere to start with atm, just writing code that looks generically interpy
20:34:46  p = -1 factorial
20:34:48  pikhq, presumably you need to register that or something?
20:34:50  alise: that's a yes?
20:34:58  once it becomes TC, you take whatever you ended up with as the lang in question
20:35:00  Vorpal: Only if you want to make the paperwork less of a pain.
20:35:00  alise: I'll just call you "alice"
20:35:06  pikhq, ah
20:35:18  to me it looks an awful lot like the powers of nine. . .which are very useful for, uh, being cool?
20:35:36  Vorpal: Otherwise, everywhere you need to use your legal name, you'll have to sign something stating that you are the same person as your previous name referred to.
20:36:17  hahah
20:36:34  apparently -1 factorial = 1
20:36:35  pikhq, that is quite a logical system actually. Better than I expected from US
20:36:41  alise, yes and?
20:36:42  yorick: for the last time, my nick is not alice
20:36:52  your nick is zuff
20:36:54  Vorpal: no, -1 factorial != 1, you see.
20:36:59  ais523: *estoppel
20:37:01  alise: I know, but you're saying "maybe"
20:37:07  wait, i thought that was /my/ nick
20:37:10  yorick: i also said a variety of other things
20:37:11  memory fades quickly...
20:37:14  ais523: no :P
20:37:17  alise, different sources?
20:37:19  was indeed you
20:37:20  alise: you also said "nope"
20:37:25  yorick: i also said p=.5
20:37:27  and p=3+7i
20:37:29  Vorpal: It's common law -- most of it is just application of common sense.
20:37:40  alise: which is while I'll call you "alice"
20:37:50  pikhq, what exactly does "common law" mean?
20:38:02  Vorpal: it's a system of laws that's established without a written law
20:38:11  basically, if everyone believes something's illegal, it is
20:38:18  oh
20:38:19  then, it gets refined via court precedent
20:38:30  for ages in the UK, murder wasn't explicitly illegal, it was just a common-law crime
20:38:32  ais523, Sweden doesn't have that system
20:38:48  Vorpal: It's a distinctly British system.
20:38:54  ah
20:38:56  pikhq, and US?
20:39:00  proto: no written laws at all, everything is based on whether a jury finds you guilty or not
20:39:07  (note: this may not be a good legal system to live in)
20:39:33  quintopia: I suppose it is the first five nonnegative powers of nine.  It's part of the original Malbolge interpreter.
20:39:38  All but one state of the US uses common law, because our legal systems are largely inspired by England's.
20:39:41  ais523, it is in fact extremely nasty
20:39:51  (Louisiana has civil law, due to being a former French colony)
20:40:17  pikhq, civil law being the "usual" system elsewhere I presume?
20:40:21  Yes.
20:40:30  Vorpal: In all current common law jurisdictions, the legal system is a combination of written laws and court precedents.
20:40:37  mhm
20:40:48  common law is wfun
20:40:52  *fun
20:40:53  The court precedents can override the written law.
20:41:08  i think i like it, except i don't trust judges much :D
20:41:14  (most typically when there's conflict between two laws)
20:41:38  cpressey: and why did you copy it here again?
20:42:28  quintopia: IT WAS EXTREMELY RELEVANT
20:42:32  also, it was in my clipboard
20:42:51  I'm using Windows PowerShell!
20:42:58  irssi in Windows PowerShell.
20:43:11  cpressey: oh lawdee :P
20:43:14  cpressey, which is worst: powershell or malbolge?
20:43:25  I'd say that common law manages to work as well as it *does* simply because it always operates with an appeal system.
20:44:15  (I mean, even waaaaaaaaay back in the history of it all, you could always appeal your decision all the way up to the King)
20:44:36  Vorpal: PowerShell is far more disappointing.  But at least I can get 130(?) columns now, instead of 80, and instead of using Pidgin.
20:44:45  powershell is alright
20:44:53  it's more interesting than bash although maybe less useful :)
20:45:17  Probably someone has written an IRC cmdlet for this.  If I were truly into Windows-slumming, I'd go look...
20:45:52  you_can_get_more_than_80_in_cmd.exe.....___space_seems_broken_atm...
20:46:27  ah better now
20:46:35  see, powershell doesn't do that :D
20:46:56  just the metal bar ended up stuck
20:46:57  pikhq: it would be interesting if someone formulated a governmental system based entirely on an "idealised" version of courts and appeals
20:47:00  perhaps infinite appeals
20:47:21  alise, infinite appeals: whoever live longest wins
20:47:28  lawl
20:47:39  even trickier for companies, they could last for much longer
20:48:26  alise: Could be interesting.
20:50:42  Vorpal: I suppose you can, but I've never gone ahead and figured out a good way to do it with cygwin.
20:51:07  cpressey: right click title bar --> properties
20:51:10  might not work with cygwin i guess
20:51:16  probably what you meant
20:52:02  cpressey, hm, right click menu bar and select settings or some such iirc
20:52:12  what's a command that works like "dig", but more likely to be installed?
20:52:18  alise: it... yeah, cygwin is some kind of crapola hybrid.  it doesn't work.
20:52:19  cpressey, you might need to update COLS or COLUMNS in bash if it doesn't detect the change
20:52:27  ais523: i don't know of one
20:52:31  "Cannot modify shortcut"
20:52:34  ais523, um nslookup?
20:52:40  ais523: host?
20:52:41  ais523, not as feature-filled of course
20:52:45  host is part of bind
20:52:49  but then so is dig
20:52:51  alise, nslookup is more likely than host iirc
20:52:58  nslookup is glibc or some such
20:53:10  or maybe not
20:53:11  bind is probably more common than glibc.
20:53:13  maybe not
20:53:20  nah you're probably right if it is glibc
20:53:24  but why would an executable be glibc???
20:53:28  alise, nslookup seems to be bind on this computer
20:53:30  hrrm
20:53:37  well that's not surprising :P
20:53:39  yet... I'm sure I seen it as libc elsewhere
20:53:47  nslookup is probably the best bet, ais523
20:53:57  nsbindup
20:53:58  ty
20:54:08  ais523, dig does a lot more of course
20:54:12  than just resolving
20:54:41  ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
20:54:41  example.org.61129INNSb.iana-servers.net.
20:54:41  example.org.61129INNSa.iana-servers.net.
20:54:48  those are some nice name-servers
20:55:51  I was trying to troubleshoot someone's internet connection over the phone
20:56:20  but helpfully, pings gave a "destination host unreachable" rather than just being swallowed
20:56:39  the IPs were being configured and they could ping the router, but not further
20:56:52  so I'm guessing they wrote their MAC address incorrectly on the form that limits what could legally be plugged in
20:56:57  ais523: if Wooble ragequits in a public forum and the mailing lists are out, what sound does it make?
20:57:06  VVRRRRROOOSHH!
20:57:08  wow, i mutated that beyong recognition
20:57:16 * alise gains enlightenment
20:57:31  proposed project: rewrite all zen koans to end with a literal answer
20:58:02  ais523: their router could be down...
20:58:05  as in the connection to the 'net
20:58:21  seems unlikely, given that they're trying to set up a new connection for the first time
20:58:29  that would be quite a coincidence if the connection was down that day
20:58:31  it happens to me all the time
20:58:35  ais523: not *that* great a coincidence
20:58:36  also, the router's owned by someone else
20:58:41  also, it could have simply not been wired up yet
20:58:42  the connection
20:58:46  and filters based on Mac address
20:58:50  we're talking new student, here
20:58:59  oh
20:59:02  that's unlikely, then :)
20:59:10  *MAC address
21:01:19  http://awibiswritteninbrainfuck.blogspot.com/2010/10/tickling-itch-announcing-awib-03.html
21:01:57  :-D
21:02:16  http://code.google.com/u/matslina/ ;; the awib dev knows of esotope :)
21:04:15  i am laughing
21:04:24  about the rocket scooter
21:04:34  http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/
21:04:57  now why is that road legal :D
21:05:03  oh
21:05:05  not with the jet on :P
21:07:39  "A DMV insider has disclosed to me that the DMV has made a formal request to a federal agency to rule if my Beetle constitutes a threat to national security based on what could happen if it got into the wrong hands."
21:08:10   some really awesome shit could happen
21:08:22  he needs to build some retractable wings for it now
21:08:25  FLYING CAR!
21:09:10 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
21:10:30  "Here's my wife's Honda Metropolitan scooter. She wants it to go faster than 40 mph. So I have these two little JFS 100 jet engines and I am thinking how to put them on the scooter."
21:10:31  *groan*
21:11:07  i know right?
21:11:10  *awesome*
21:12:40 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:20:50 -!- webquint has joined.
21:22:08 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:22:50  things go from really fast to really quiet in a blink
21:24:42  quick, say multiple things at once
21:30:31  i i really have don't tried know this what before to and say it beyond doesn't the make first sense thing.
21:33:33  when the things that if it
21:35:51 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:36:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:36:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:36:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:37:30 -!- webquint has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:44:10  I still can't get TclRobots working, even on a Linux machine :-(
21:44:53  pikhq doesn't really have an optimising x86 Brainfuck compiler!
21:45:31  impomatic: More magic.
21:45:57  Luftputefartøyet mitt er fullt av ål
21:46:37  "Couldn't find or send to a new wish, bailing out! Is your X server configured for xauth style security? TclRobots uses the Tk 'send' command, which requires that xhost security not be used. Use xauth if possible. Alternatively, re-compile the wish executable /user/bin/wish8.4 with the -DTK_NO_SECURITY flag.'
21:48:08  olsner, vad är "Luftputefartøyet"?
21:48:23  åh nej....
21:48:40  olsner, "svävare" på norska?
21:48:58  givetvis
21:49:08  heck where does the "my hoovercraft is full of eel" phrase come from?
21:49:16  wikipedia
21:49:23  olsner, firefox: segmentation fault
21:49:27  not sure why atm
21:51:25  Vorpal: monty python....................
21:51:33  alise, ah
21:51:37  alise, which sketch
21:51:46  Vorpal: the hovercraft-full-of-eels sketch
21:51:54  dirty hungarian phrasebook
21:51:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:58:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:05:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:23  Phantom_Hoover_: Yes I do.
22:08:41  LIES
22:08:48  SHOW IT TO Me
22:11:06  bezier curve with an infinite number of control points
22:12:40  cpressey, isn't that just the curve defined by the points...?
22:14:27  Phantom_Hoover_: http://sprunge.us/CXTS
22:18:47  cpressey, wait, not necessarily.
22:19:51  cpressey, which infinity?
22:20:48  If it's an unbroken continuum, I think what said was correct...
22:22:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:25:35  *I
22:31:18  Phantom_Hoover_: the control points are cantor dust. of Yourself
22:31:33 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:32:58  pikhq, that URL doesn't work BtW.
22:34:07  W. F. M.
22:34:42 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:35:41  WFM
22:38:23  pikhq: very nice, btw.
22:38:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:40:47  Much thanks to alise for telling me when I was being stupid about it.
22:41:45  back
22:41:48  pikhq: lawl
22:41:57      rnf x = x `seq` () ;; this is stupid, btw >_>
22:42:01  ZEE
22:42:04  ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
22:42:05  (it's equivalent to () iff x halts, otherwise _|_)
22:42:35  although
22:42:37  i guess the thing does
22:42:40  rnf x `seq` x
22:42:48  x `seq` () `seq` x _probably_ == an evaluated copy of x
22:42:53  but it is definitely not required that this be so
22:42:59  alise: That's the point of NFData, though.
22:43:41  I know it's not *required* to work that way, but it generally does by encouraging further strictness.
22:44:11  pikhq: i don't see why rnf can't just be a -> a
22:44:15  rather than a -> ()
22:44:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:45:26  Because hell if I know.
22:46:03  I'm just using Control.DeepSeq right is all.
22:47:12  And using deepseq because otherwise finding the fixed point of the optimisations takes forever.
22:48:23 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
22:48:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:55:16  pikhq: Now add more AWESOME
22:55:22   bezier curve with an infinite number of control points
22:55:25  also known as: a function!
22:57:43 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:59:52 -!- cpressey has joined.
23:00:05  That was unusual
23:01:11  Or was it? :|
23:01:33  I think I hit ctrl+something
23:01:54 -!- cpressey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:31 -!- cpressey has joined.
23:02:45  OK, *that* time I hit Ctrl-C.
23:03:18  Ctrl+C doesn't quit irssi.
23:03:21  Maybe in your LAMER terminals
23:03:29  POWERSHELL!!!
23:03:49  Or maybe it's the Cygwin build of irssi is configured for extra lameness.
23:03:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:07:53 -!- augur has joined.
23:09:20  cpressey: OHHEY
23:09:42  cpressey: Way back in the distant past when you listened to zee4 and hated it, did you listen up to the 2 minute mark? Just out of curiosity :P'
23:10:28  Gregor: I don't remember.  I want to say I listened to the whole thing.
23:10:43  Since you explicitly said that you DIDN'T listen to the whole thing, you want to lie apparently :P
23:11:04  And you want to ask questions about things you already know, apparently
23:11:25  Heck, it seems to go beyond "want" in your case.
23:11:27  You said you hadn't listened to the end, not that you hadn't listened to an arbitrary point I've now specified.
23:11:54  If I stopped listening somewhere, I sure as hell don't remember how long it was from the beginning.
23:12:23  Fair enough :P
23:12:27 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:12:32  I can give it another shot if you think it'll change my mind.
23:12:49  'that dog' will just have to wait
23:13:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:13:40  I don't think it'll change your mind per say, even if that part is supermagic it's not going to be sufficient to betterfy everything else, I was just wondering if that section was part of the consideration.
23:13:43  coppro: ping'e
23:15:09 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:16:23  Gregor: Well, what starts around 1:30 redeems it somewhat
23:17:08 -!- augur has joined.
23:17:21 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:17:50 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
23:18:41 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
23:18:41 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:19:03  Gregor: but yeah, no.  I like 3 and 5 much better than 4 and 2
23:19:59  I too would place 4 at the bottom of the heap (though I like 2 more than that). I was thinking about adapting 3 for piano+melodica and making an acoustic recording of it :P
23:23:53  Apparently Civilization (the original) had barbarian diplomats.
23:24:01  TOTALLY not a contradiction of terms.
23:27:14  Gregor: does it have an ending?  Zee3, not Civilization.
23:28:01  They all loop.
23:28:10  zee3 will need more adaption than that anyway :P
23:28:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:28:27 * oerjan hugs clog 
23:28:29  I want to write a piece that has 2-against-3 in every measure
23:28:29  The fact that it loops means, amongst other things, that I can rotate it. The beginning that's the current beginning doesn't need to be the beginning at all :P
23:28:59  cpressey: Title it "Eat your God-Damned Chicken"
23:31:18  hm apparently they are logged too
23:31:36  um what?
23:31:41  this was really in reply to  "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, --" I don't think we really do that latter part, and I'm not sure how that should be done. On the other hand, we're not exactly model freenode citizens anyway, what with the single-# thing and all.
23:32:01  i wanted to check if notices were a way
23:32:19  OH.  you op fellas
23:32:38  It's just a differently formatted purple line for me
23:32:39  um what has this to do with ops, really
23:33:01  I assume privs are required to notify?
23:33:12  almost certainly not
23:33:37  in fact according to rfc, bots are _supposed_ to do that instead of ordinary messages.  but no one cares about that.
23:34:10 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.13/20100914130356]).
23:35:12  i have no idea how this works.
23:35:19  BUT THAT"S OK
23:35:41  ok you can do unlogged comments with undefined ctcps :D
23:35:54  i realize not every client will show them though...
23:37:15  cpressey: i just did /notice #esoteric Testing...
23:37:20  http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_ipol.txt
23:37:33  brian raiter code in an interesting-looking self-modifying string interpolation language
23:37:34  it says "requested unknown CTCP TESTING from #esoteric"
23:37:41  and after that i tried /ctcp #esoteric testing Maybe _this_ works :D
23:37:54  I did not see the notice then
23:38:01 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
23:38:03  oh wait, it's out of my scrollback
23:38:08 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:38:12  coppro: oh your client doesn't show more than the TESTING part :(
23:38:18  coppro: how long until mathNEWS? >_>
23:38:28  coppro: NOTICEs are not ctcps afaik
23:38:29  alise: production starts nowish
23:38:34  I must imagine clog still logs that ...
23:38:36  oerjan: shush you
23:38:39  coppro: but my article!
23:38:47  It logs CTCP ACTION, after all.
23:38:47  alise: either email or next week! now!
23:38:52  coppro: call up and say, literally, "stop the presses!" i will pay you infinite moneys
23:38:59  Gregor: clog does _not_ log unknown ctcp commands, i just checked
23:39:01  coppro: okay okay okay
23:39:09  alise: it's not going to press yet, but it should be in soon
23:39:13  ACTION is special since it's used all the time
23:39:32  coppro: i can just put the markup in the email, right?
23:39:38  Hah, in fact, it even complains about it.
23:39:39  yes
23:39:40  THat's awesome.
23:39:51  -clog- ERRMSG unknown CTCP: _ hurf durf
23:40:07  coppro: MATHNEWS SITE IS DOWN REQUIRE EMAIL ADDRESS URGENTLY
23:40:36  huh it's case insensitive
23:41:00  coppro: :|
23:41:04  Penis Oerjan
23:42:35  I have no idea if I'm doing it right or if anyone else can see it when I do it.
23:42:57  cpressey: I could see!
23:43:11 -!- alise_ has joined.
23:43:19  coppro: i need mathnews' email
23:44:36  alise_: uh, hang on
23:45:26  alise_: mathnews@gmail.com
23:45:32  what a crude protocol
23:46:10 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:46:22  coppro: huh, the one on the website is a utoronto address; forwarded?
23:47:03  alise_: uh, utoronto?
23:47:23  that sounds wrong
23:47:30  erm
23:47:32  uwaterloo
23:47:33  coppro: same thing :D
23:47:58  they're like several km from each other!
23:48:23  coppro: I am placing blame on you in the email; be prepared to justify my crap.
23:48:43  several km indeed
23:48:53  not waterloo/kitchener on the other hand, _that's_ same thing
23:48:55  "As a Brit who does not go to the University of Waterloo, does not study mathematics there and is indeed not even in Canada and has never been, clearly mathNEWS is the best publication for me."
23:48:55  clearly
23:48:56  *now
23:49:15  coppro: okayy, here goes
23:49:31  Ah, southern Ontario.
23:49:37  coppro: expect to be contacted about this crazy-ass Brit trying to submit to the paper ASAP
23:49:40  alise_: hey you know with the crazy british libel laws there might even be an argument _for_ that :D
23:49:59  alise_: I have a midterm in 10 minutes, but I'll check
23:50:09  coppro: I hope they notice that I have  in there which may not work >__>
23:50:16  coppro: I didn't send anything to you, but I did blame you.
23:50:25  what , doc?
23:50:47  alise_: it gets previewed
23:53:00  coppro: but it's so _long_
23:53:01  :P
23:53:23  coppro: wonder if gmail's spam filter will block it
23:53:27  what with the markup
23:53:44  possibly but unlikely
23:53:47  have you sent it yet?
23:54:18  I'm about to leave; yes or no
23:54:20  yes
23:54:22  ok
23:54:23  bye
23:54:27  and i just replied to it :P
23:54:31  correcting a formatting error that gmail added
23:54:36  also misspelling heads up as head's up...
23:54:57  head 
23:57:11  No, this should be in 
23:57:43  Gregor: Google Translate, eh?
23:58:16 * oerjan wonders how many irc clients try to parse html tags
23:58:29  pikhq: Yesh :P
23:58:34  or display them
23:58:44  pikhq: What did it actually say (if it made any sense at all)
23:59:24  Gregor: CTCP ACTION: Mr. 's Japan brokenly speak.
23:59:36  Sounds about right.

2010-10-05:

00:00:18  pikhq: I want to write a compiler now.
00:00:22  Dammit life is awesome, have you ever noticed?
00:00:30  i think that deutsch was only gebrochen due to a missing suffix on the gebrochen
00:00:34  You can DO SO MANY COOL THINGS in it.
00:00:37  Like, every day!
00:00:53  alise_: Hah.
00:00:54  i have to go buy bandages now
00:00:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:01:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:01:10  Headphones are awesome.
00:01:19  pikhq: But LIFE moreso!
00:05:07  pikhq: My preferred tags for an album are completely at odds with the completely official, multiply-confirmed ones. You may now maul me
00:10:42  alise_: How so?
00:11:18  pikhq: I'll say in /msg since it's irrelevant and long
00:12:42 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
00:13:05  BTW, TV rips of series that are on DVD make baby Jesus cry.
00:33:24   x `seq` () `seq` x _probably_ == an evaluated copy of x <-- i think that's exactly equivalent to x by definition
00:33:37  oerjan: hm right
00:33:55  pikhq: So does Nazism.
00:33:57  and as usual x will only be evaluated if the whole thing is
00:35:26   pikhq: i don't see why rnf can't just be a -> a
00:36:13  hm rnf is just one of the evaluation strategies right?  now what if you wanted a strategy that did _not_ evaluate... it couldn't reasonably be a -> a
00:36:31  heh
00:36:43  isn't it just deepseq's thing? maybe not
00:36:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:37:04  i recall this from Control.Parallel.Strategies
00:38:18  rnf is deepseq essentially, but there are others that evaluate stuff in parallel instead
00:41:44  coppro: HURRY UP WITH THAT MIDTERM
00:41:55  oerjan: this is part of DeepSeq though in pikhq's code
00:41:58  pikhq: Make your compiler MORE AWESOME
00:42:31  alise: done
00:42:37  coppro: okay.
00:42:48  coppro: should i expect an email back from the mathNEWS people or will it just appear?
00:42:51  (in the next issue)
00:42:57  alise: oh right rnf is a method of DeepSeq? but it's also the right type for those strategies iirc
00:42:58  alise: one or the other
00:43:05  coppro: that's so helpful
00:43:07  :)
00:43:23  @src DeepSeq
00:43:23  Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
00:43:39  :t rnf
00:43:40  forall a. (NFData a) => a -> Done
00:43:46  huh
00:44:54  i guess Done = ()
00:46:04   Apparently Civilization (the original) had barbarian diplomats. <-- currently on front page of reddit: http://i.imgur.com/kWy5z.jpg
00:46:18  i guess that's from the newest version
00:46:45  Damn those barbarian paratroopers!
00:47:35  diplomatic paratroopers
00:47:49  coppro: wow, how do you guys even have a tv show
00:47:49  well
00:47:54  for a definition of tv equal to yt
00:48:00  also you guys = most vague use of tha tterm ever
00:48:38  no kidding
00:49:22  *that term
00:49:39  coppro: my current perception of it is that about 10 people go to your university and they all write mathNEWS
00:49:48  do not attempt to disillusion me of this notion
00:51:38 -!- augur has joined.
00:52:10  Banshee. *It fucking does video metadata*.
00:52:21  Must try.
00:52:51  pikhq: NO
00:52:53  Banshee is AWFUL
00:53:04  pikhq: Imagine iTunes. Now imagine transplanting iTunes onto Mono.
00:53:14  Bloat defined.
00:53:24  pikhq: It most likely just stores it in a database.
00:53:26  Like iTunes.
00:53:28  Oh god.
00:53:34  That is revolting.
00:53:58  WHY CANT THERE BE A NICE VIDEO PLAYER
00:54:07  pikhq: *cough* You know what this is leading up to...
00:54:12  LET'S INVENT OUR OWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE AND GUI LIBRARY
00:54:15  ALSO VIDEO PLAYER, AFTER ALL THAT
00:54:39  "The chronology is sometimes associated with Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago." Umm... Wikipedia.
00:54:42  You mean 6000 years.
00:55:06 -!- Kordalien has joined.
00:58:29  well do _all_ YEC agree on the precise date?
00:58:42 * oerjan vaguely recalls no
01:01:25  alise: Also change the entire distribution infrastructure.
01:01:35  pikhq: Of course
01:01:41  oerjan: it's 5,000 -- 10,000 years basically
01:01:47  definitely not millennia
01:01:54  pikhq: Actually a nice GUI library for C would be nice.
01:02:02  um that _is_ millennia
01:02:20  alise: Say, make it so that all broadcast shows are sent out via an RSS feed alike, with a BitTorrent alike.
01:02:27  alise: With archives, of course, instantly downloadable.
01:02:35  millennium means 1000 years, millennia is the plural
01:02:53  pikhq: oh i thought you mean software distribution
01:02:54  :^)
01:03:10  iirc there was some work done on streaming bittorrent but i have no idea how that works
01:03:19  with it being out-of-order
01:04:06  alise: Wikimedia is currently testing it -- a combination of HTTP and BitTorrent, actually.
01:04:16  pikhq: ew.
01:04:40  Use HTTP to fetch anything needed immediately, use BitTorrent to try and fetch stuff that's later in the stream.
01:04:49  pikhq: grotesque :)
01:06:08  Ain't it though?
01:09:55  alise: I want to write an article, what should it be about?
01:10:15  coppro: write an errata for my errata
01:10:24  coppro: i can send you the full version
01:10:31  lol
01:10:39  (note: my errata is pretty indisputably factually correct in every way that it actually tries to be factual, so this will be difficult)
01:10:49  not really
01:11:04  coppro: "Actually, this IS valid Python code! Because I say so!"
01:11:04  "errata: this article appears to be properly researched. In order to alleviate this concern, the following changes have been made"
01:11:28  coppro: I approve.
01:11:41  coppro: I have this sneaking suspicion that gmail's spam filter doesn't like my post, what with it being long and markuppy...
01:11:46  *email not post
01:11:54  hang on, I'll ask CorruptED to check right now
01:12:59  coppro: I am so glad the editors are corrupt.
01:13:14  coppro: I also sent a reply to that one correcting an error caused by gmail.
01:13:43  hang on, the email account is busy
01:14:36  i have to go asap
01:15:51  ok
01:16:28  i am, however, insane enough to wait to see if it's received yet
01:16:31  because dammit this stuff is IMPORTANT!
01:16:51  alise: what's the article about?
01:16:54  receipt confirmed
01:17:22  coppro: & the reply? okay.
01:17:24  now put it on the front page
01:17:55  zeotrope: Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.
01:18:10  alise: can you send me a copy so that I can write errata to it?
01:18:22  mathNews, fun paper
01:18:41  coppro: certainly.
01:18:45  thanks
01:18:51  coppro: sec.
01:18:58  coppro: http://filebin.ca/wpeogf/mathnews-errata.html
01:19:13  "Firstly, it appears that this article was written by a Brit. To correct for this, remove every usage of grammar."
01:19:18  (Yes, it's not HTML, but.)
01:19:19  coppro: what :D
01:19:30  coppro: the most solid point is the last one, btw
01:19:32  indisputable
01:19:37  [[Printed in a newspaper with an incorrectly spelled name. While &mn; is an excellent newspaper, it unfortunately has a major blight against it: the incorrect spelling of its name as ``&mn;'', rather than the correct ``mathsNEWS''. This is the most severe flaw.]]
01:22:24  coppro: so yours will appear in the next issue?
01:22:30  or the same? <-- that would be super-ludicrous
01:23:55  alise: quite comprehensive
01:24:20  zeotrope: bear in mind the original article is like six lines :P
01:24:30  i will squeeze every drop of blood from this stone
01:25:31  *null must be trembling
01:25:49  quite
01:25:51  whoever he is!
01:25:56  darned canucks
01:26:05  how dare he fill such an esteemed paper with garbage
01:26:13  YES I KNOW the rest of it is so accurate
01:26:22  coppro: btw, i expect similar treatment of getting the gold master copy of yours before it's published
01:26:28  so i can publish my meta^2errata
01:26:32  that is all
01:26:39  alise: Y'know, fuck Hulu. It falls so short of what it could be.
01:26:49  pikhq: yeah. and fuck Hawaii too!
01:26:50  egg foo young is delicious D:
01:26:51  A set of RSS feeds attached to BitTorrent for me to gleefully download.
01:26:53  i leave you with this.
01:26:54  goodnight.
01:26:55  bye.
01:26:56 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:27:17  And no ads.
01:27:45  it is still technically piracy
01:27:50  *buzz kill*
01:28:11  but I agree
01:28:14  zeotrope: Hulu is... Actually not piracy.
01:28:25  I was talking about RSS + torrents
01:28:56  which is definitely more convenient
01:29:27  Which is the point. :)
01:29:45  some people frown on the piracy part
01:30:42  and Hulu doesn't work outside of the USA
01:31:10  so torrents are the only other option for many people
01:32:02  country restricted content, what is this 1970?
01:32:48  As far as they're concerned, yes.
01:32:55  Oh, also: SCREW FLASH.
01:32:59  FLASH SUCKS FOR PLAYING VIDEO.
01:33:03  darn, he's gone :(
01:36:59  Flash sucks. Flash really, really, really sucks.
01:37:09  yes yes it does
01:41:10 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Flash.
01:41:16  Aww, registered
01:41:18 -!- Flash has changed nick to Sgeo.
01:46:45  > 7^3/40
01:46:46    8.575
02:13:26 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:45:26  http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/this-october-has-5-fridays-5-saturdays-and-5-sundays-all-in-one-month-it-happens-only-once-in-823-years/
02:45:29  That's it.
02:45:32  I surrender.
02:45:35  I hate humanity.
02:46:23  er...
02:47:05  Two of my friends "liked" a page claiming that
02:48:44  ok so the first part is actually correct
02:49:53  and the second obviously false for two different reasons i can think of
02:50:17  What tipped me off was noticing that that's the same (or, at least, a superset of) months whose 1 is on a Friday and which have 31 days
02:50:36  And I think you may be the second person I linked that to who didn't actually read the post
02:50:43  (1) it only depends on what day the first is on (2) the calendar _actually_ repeats every 400 years
02:50:53  oh i've started reading it
02:51:06  i'm just thinking about why it's false first :D
02:54:51 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:56:53  Well, it also depends on the month having 31 days
02:57:22  um i mean the year variation
02:57:41  Ah
02:58:15  Well, depends on what day the 1st is, and whether or not it's a leap year, right?
03:00:13  _for october_ the leap year doesn't matter
03:00:44  Blargh?
03:00:58  i meant the first day of october, not of the year
03:01:00  Are we talking Jan 1st's effects on October, or the day that Oct 1 is?
03:01:01  Ah
03:01:14  sheesh one really has to spell out everything here
03:01:35  >.>
03:09:00 -!- lament has joined.
03:11:17  MAJOR FAIL: (roughly translated) "The Baddie of cholesterol is LDL, sources of which for example include cheeses.".
03:11:33  cheesy science
03:12:12  There is only one cholesterol. LDL is not cholesterol. And Cheeses don't contain LDL.
03:15:45  Oh, the original is apparently (roughly translated): "The baddie of cholesterol is LDL, which is only contained in hard animal fats. For instance cheeses include those".". Just as much fail: Animal fats do not contain LDL.
03:17:18  1) "the baddie of cholesterol" doesn't have to be cholesterol
03:17:29  2) "source" doesn't mean "container"
03:17:36  the fail is you
03:19:16  LDL is made by liver. I have no idea if LDL survives digestion proceses. Probably not.
03:21:36  Nor are animal fats source of LDL...
03:21:57  Wow, there's lot more fail in this article...
03:23:45  Well, its based on recomendations by (national) heart disease association, so no wonder...
03:24:11  yeah those idiots know nothing about cholesterol
03:24:59 * Sgeo was taught that HDL was "good" and LDL was "bad"
03:26:13  There are subtypes of LDL. Some better, some sightly worse. Then there's real nasty kind that shows up as "LDL" (but isn't) on common panels.
03:27:27  Oh, and statins (cholesterol-lowering drugs) don't do much to that real nasty kind...
03:29:08  But then, the common way of determining LDL yields quite wild results that are often quite wrong.
03:29:33  (HDL is measured and total cholesterol is measured, those are fairly accurate).
03:31:59  That kind being "real nasty", one would expect that it would be quite strongly associated with heart disease. Indeed it is.
03:35:12  Sgeo: Nutrition is much more complicated than "X is good for you and Y is bad".
03:36:06  Well, except that modern, industrial processed foods tend to be bad for you. :P
03:37:53  Oh, yeah, and typical American portion sizes.
03:38:03  That's... Pretty obviously bad.
03:43:10  Maybe I should start eating typical American portion sizes
03:43:43  But _WHY_ are typical american portion sizes so large?
03:44:57  but why is it pretty obviously bad?
03:45:38  Because it shouldn't be possible and indicates that something is badly wrong?
03:46:21  what shouldn't be possible?
03:46:42  The huge american portition sizes...
03:46:53  why shouldn't they be possible?
03:46:58  lament: Imagine a gigantic feast. We call it a "meal".
03:47:20  pikhq: i'm sure you realize that's total bullshit
03:47:20  Because very few should be able eat so much at once...
03:47:33 * Sgeo needs to eat more, so...
03:47:34  Ilari: nobody has any problems, really
03:47:52  just come to a restaurant and go crazy
03:48:09  Sgeo: "Just eat more and excercise less" is just as bad advice as "eat less and excercise more".
03:48:32  Hmm?
03:48:38  lament: 64 fl oz of soda (about 2L). As a single serving.
03:48:43  Need I say more?
03:49:02  pikhq: that's not a standard serving size.
03:49:33  pikhq: i understand europeans perpetuating retarded stereotypes about americans, but you're american yourself and still doing that?
03:49:36  No, you're more likely to find 32 fl oz.
03:49:36  that's pretty dumb
03:49:58  Here large bottle of soda is 1.5l... And the standard bottle (which is apparently meant as "serving" (ignore what manufacturers try to claim) is 0.5l.
03:50:01  With free refills.
03:50:41 * Sgeo tends to insist on small soda. If I get a large cup, I'll fill it up, then drink it all, and that's rather... uncomfortable
03:51:12  Also, what, exactly, is wrong with eating more?
03:51:18  For thin persons
03:51:28  more than what?
03:51:44  lament: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ryany/BigMacExtraValueMeal.jpg
03:52:32  pikhq: yup. so? that's actually smaller than most meals at a restaurant.
03:52:41  That's 3,000 calories.
03:52:47  Ooh
03:52:59  What's the daily amount, 20,000? Or is it 2,000?
03:53:04  Sgeo: 2,000.
03:53:21  Well, that's what the FDA bases their recommendations on.
03:53:37  So I could just eat that and not need to eat anything else for the day?
03:54:13  Well, taking in too many calories isn't good because high metabolism isn't good (and the alternatives are even worse).
03:54:21  Well, no, because it's fairly devoid of nutrients. It just has the caloric content that it was declared one needs.
03:54:30  As a single meal.
03:54:30  pikhq: there're 1350 calories in a large big mac meal
03:54:33  stop trolling
03:54:39  lament: That's a super size big mac meal.
03:55:37  Second law of thermodynamics: "Calorie is not an calorie.". :-)
03:55:43  lament: Erm, sorry. I gave the wrong damned number.
03:55:46  *a
03:55:49  lament: That's... 1580. My fault.
03:55:53  Still bloody absurd.
03:55:58  well, there you go
03:55:59  Just significantly less so.
03:56:08  I think my pasta that I eat each night has over 1k calories
03:56:24  pikhq: 1580 for a larger than normal portion
03:56:45  For some people, it's larger than normal.
03:56:47  Ilari, what are the chances of me being able to talk to a competent person somewhere in the US?
03:56:53  For others, that's smaller than normal.
03:56:57  Get a nutrition plan worked out
03:57:35  Sgeo: Pretty slim (unless you pick carefully).
03:57:42  (granted, you're talking a small but fat portion of the population when you're discussing the people who actually do stuff like have multiple Big Macs in a sitting)
03:58:22  With soda and fries?
03:58:45  Ilari: Well, of course.
03:59:17  Wasn't the "big mac guy" in "Supersize Me", well... Not fat?
03:59:34  I'm quite perplexed about that as well.
04:00:19  Though it does demonstrate that absurd amounts of food won't automatically make you fat.
04:01:01  My step-mother constantly tells me that I'm not eating enough
04:01:05  Well, its about fat in - fat out. Not calories in - calories out (unless you define the latter quantities to make it a tautology).
04:01:06  It's probably true, but still
04:01:15  (and that's at storage boundary).
04:01:28  If I want advice, I can't get it from her, no matter how competent, or not, she may be, because she'll drive me up the wall
04:01:42  Ilari: Well, calories are nothing more than a rough estimate of how much energy you get out of that food, so... Yeah.
04:01:45  She does drive me up the wall
04:02:27  (incredibly rough when you consider that there's freaking sugar water as a common beverage.)
04:02:33  If it was fat_absorbed - fat_burned, then it would be just plain _wrong_.
04:03:05  Because there's fat synthethis term as well, and it certainly can be nontrivial.
04:06:22  pikhq: Not to mention, same macronutrients can provode different amounts of energy depending on amounts of other macronutrients...
04:07:44  Oh, and then there is stuff like adjustable efficiency of ATP production...
04:08:06  Ilari: Shit's more complex than burning the dry food and seeing the change in temperature -- who would've thought!
04:08:22  Erm, change in temperature of the water above.
04:08:51  Not even all fats are equivalent calories. Let alone fats, proteins and cabohydrates...
04:09:07 * Sgeo would love to just be able to inject something that could deliver ATP to all his cells
04:11:12  Too bad that with what all cells can use (glucose), even few extra grams injected (fast) would be toxic...
04:11:50  o.O
04:12:32  IIRC, something like 3 grams in fast injection would cause your blood sugar to go to toxic levels...
04:12:32  a grassy mount Or set with two feet Gules winged Sable and in base a bar wavy Sable inscribed with zeros and ones Or
04:13:19  Or maybe it would take about 4 if blood sugar is slightly low.
04:14:52  (Amount of glucose circulating in blood of normal adult under normal conditions: About 5 grams).
04:16:48  Or, one could inject fatty acids. Considerably less toxic (but not all cells can use those... OTOH, body can produce glucose for those cells that absolutely need it).
04:17:26  Eh, just bring about the singularity. That'll solve it.
04:18:30 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:19:02 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:26:32  No, you stupid Flash video, you do not need to keep buffering, there is already a 5% of the video buffer and increasing.
04:27:02  Whoever wrote this: you suck at programming and you should be ashamed of yourself.
04:27:31  Oh, and Adobe: you suck at programming and you should be ashamed of yourself.
04:29:22  amen
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04:39:53  With "why are they eating such huge porititons" I meant things like why the satiety isn't kicking in? Why doesn't the body downregulate hunger and upregulate energy consumption to keep the weight in check?
04:44:52  Lack of exercise.  The metabolism has nothing to calibrate with.
04:47:42  Does running to school/running for the bus count as excersize?
04:47:55  The amount of excercise required for that is very small (one pretty much has to go out of one's way to get that little)...
04:48:47  It does.
04:48:57  Ilari: I presume that means "you need to get out of bed and walk to the kitchen every now and then" kind of "little".
04:49:21  pikhq: Well, within that order of magnitude...
04:49:51  Ilari: Point being that you'd have to make a point of it to not do that.
04:50:07  Not to mention, excercise isn't important for weight control. One can also see this by comparing energy expended in NEAT vs EAT(a.k.a. excercise).
04:50:46  Well, if one has shortage of energy, then the excercise levels could drop a lot...
04:50:53  Well, I'd imagine it helps somewhat, in that it does actually expend energy.
04:51:45  When one is talking about energies expended by ten hour walk (or was it run?)...
04:52:40  The mechanisms body uses to waste energy easily waste order of magnitude more than one could burn by excercising.
04:53:35  And anywas, all the exercise in the world won't help you if you use more energy than you ingest.
04:53:41  s/anywas/anyways/
04:53:48  Erm.
04:53:52  s/more/less/
04:54:09  Though if you use more energy than you ingest, you might be having trouble as well. :P
04:55:37  There are some dangerous chemicals sometimes used for weight loss. If one overdoses on them, the primary toxic effect is that they make body literally cook itself producing energy for use.
04:56:12  That's... Frightening.
04:56:30  pikhq: Oh, your appetite should go down a lot as well when weight goes up...
04:56:37  Any nice chemicals for weight gain?
04:57:07  Sgeo: "Force-feeding", I believe is the term.
04:57:20  Sgeo: Though it's rather unlikely you actually need weight gain.
04:58:03  Sgeo: Well, I think I know couple, but they are not nice ones...
04:58:05  Presuming reasonable health and a lack of relevant mental disorders, of course.
05:00:56  As a kid, Supposedly, in an attempt to get me to eat on my own, suggested by a doctor, my parents didn't try to force me to eat, hoping I would eat on my own.
05:00:59  I didn't
05:01:44  Okay, you may have a disorder then.
05:02:21  Who wants to read/edit a silly game story for meeeee?
05:02:46  Gregor: Does it involve Americans being fatasses?
05:02:55  It /could/.
05:03:01  It doesn't, but it /could/.
05:03:04  Fair enough!
05:03:54  ANYWAY, I wrote a silly but appropriately-over-the-top opening sequence for ZEE: http://codu.org/tmp/story.txt
05:04:10  I just asked my dad, he said he thinks I might have imagined being told that
05:04:15  FUCK FALLIBLE MEMORY
05:04:25  FUCK IT IN THE ASS
05:04:36  Sgeo: So your disorder is just delusions, not dietary problems.
05:04:56  Gregor, since when is being human a disorder?
05:05:05  And my dad may be mistaken :3
05:05:18  Sgeo: Since roughly 1.5 million years ago, I'd say.
05:07:00  Gregor: Quite nice.
05:07:40  Gregor, that's awesome
05:08:09  Gregor: Also, you need more time.
05:08:20  I CAN'T MANUFACTURE TIME
05:08:26  For ZEE, what I need is more workforce!
05:08:35  Get cracking on the singularity! That'll solve it!
05:09:46 * oerjan is sensing a pattern here
05:10:48 -!- pineal_aenimal7 has joined.
05:11:39  hello esoterrorists :)
05:12:09  ALLAAAAH
05:12:14  Alaaaaan Turing
05:12:41  Slereah: ... I love you.
05:12:54  unsafePerformIO suicideBomb
05:12:56 -!- pineal_aenimal7 has changed nick to pineal_aenimal.
05:13:24  That could also be a point about people thinking this is esoterica
05:13:40  
05:14:09  pikhq: Unsafe indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!
05:15:19  thats good
05:17:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:17:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
05:17:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
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05:20:59  any one familiar with david wilcock?
05:23:01  Heheheh
05:23:04  cock
05:23:28  ...oh dear
05:24:45  alrighty.
05:25:32 * pineal_aenimal slaps pineal_aenimal around a bit with a large trout
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05:37:08  yay xmonad
05:37:16  Yay cdparanoia.
05:40:02  cdparanoia?
05:41:05  It rips CDs. And is sufficiently paranoid about it to ensure a perfect rip if at all possible.
05:41:17  ah
05:41:50  And does nothing else. It just dumps WAVs to disk.
05:42:00  SO similar to xmonad.
05:42:09  "if"?
05:42:37  Sgeo: It can't fix a disc made 100% opaque.
05:43:28  I'm having some trouble parsing that. You can't mean "literally unreadable by anything", can you?
05:43:43  That's too trivial
05:44:03  Wait, I guess portions could be fully opaque? Or am I just confused today
05:44:06  Sgeo: Too trivial for "if at all possible"
05:44:16   Give me a corner case.
05:44:20   Here's one.
05:44:23   No, not that one.
05:45:05 * Sgeo is tired :/
05:48:38  Oh, yeah, it also often functions as a circumvention device.
05:50:14  (some CD copy protection schemes function by introducing intentional errors that a dedicated CD player will ignore)
05:51:35  Lots of people have single-purpose CD players nowadays.
05:54:55  Yeah, like, uh.
05:54:59  I got nothing.
05:55:21  You'll note that CD copy protection schemes kinda fell out of favor after a few years. :)
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06:12:52  Please help me. I tried to compile TeX but it just made a lot of errors, and it won't compile.
06:12:54  There is the errors:  http://sprunge.us/SEhT
06:14:23  Can you please tell me what I did wrong?
06:20:39  Even the esoteric topics in computing channel cannot save you from Pascal.
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06:22:12  Save me from Pascal? I don't generally program in Pascal, but this is a program that is Pascal.
06:23:58  Is there some command-line parameter I need to add?
06:24:09  Haven't a clue, never built TeX myself.
06:28:26  Which options of GPC cause it to emulate Pascal-H?
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06:51:16  Do I need to redefine alpha_file (in section 25)? I probably also have to redefine othercases
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07:12:06  I got it to compile with no errors, but now it complains about 'his.tex'
07:12:36  IT WANTS A MATE
07:13:12  or maybe a divorce
07:13:22  I cannot find anything in the program about what 'his.tex' is supposed to be.
07:17:13 -!- myndzi has joined.
07:18:51  (I cannot find on Google or Wikipedia about what 'his.tex' is supposed to be, either.)
07:22:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
07:24:05  What could probably be done, although it would take a very long time, is looking at the source-codes of TeX and rewriting it in Enhanced CWEB, changing things as necessary as you are moving along.
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07:28:30  Are you willing to collaborate on this project?
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13:43:49  yay, my paper was accepted
13:43:53  congrats
13:44:19  hmm, now what's going on?
13:44:28  nothing
13:44:29  IRC is working fine, but I don't seem to be able to create new Internet connections
13:44:33  not web or email, anyway
13:44:49  oh, started working again
13:44:52  it was just being really slow
14:25:28 -!- alise has joined.
14:29:27  hi alise
14:29:43  hi ais523
14:30:12  ugh, the Internet here is crazy
14:30:25  it sometimes doesn't form new connections for something like a minute, even though existing connections work fine
14:30:36  (at least, for web and email)
14:32:09  19:23:45  Well, its based on recomendations by (national) heart disease association, so no wonder...
14:32:09  19:24:11  yeah those idiots know nothing about cholesterol
14:32:24  i'm glad our channel op is such a fine, upstanding citizen who believes everything the american government tells him.
14:32:54  better check your BMI
14:33:03  ais523: is that at uni?
14:33:07  *this
14:33:28  yep
14:34:22  ais523: take over the networking department
14:34:39  ais523: err, can Wooble actually do that while he's on hold?
14:34:41  (deputise)
14:34:54  oh hm or is deputisation one of those things even non-players can do...
14:35:57  being on hold hardly stops anything
14:36:00  it's not like BlogNomic
14:36:11  mostly, it just lets people oust you from offices, and makes you ineligible for certain things
14:36:30  Such as winning when everyone else is winning
14:36:33  
14:37:27  this about agora?
14:37:56  yes
14:38:57  i looked at that once.  seems awfully complicated (as any nomic that has been in existence for years upon years must)
14:39:18  but i GUESS it at LEAST has fewer rules than certain versions of DnD...
14:39:49  Ilari: you should publish a book about nutrition :-)
14:40:32   Here is a quick summary of Java build systems: Q: What's the difference between Ant and Maven? A: The creator of Ant has apologised.
14:40:41  I still don't see why they don't just use make, it seems to work fine
14:40:57  meh, find | xargs javac works fine if you don't care about minimal recompiles
14:41:06  Wait, seriously? Someone apologized for making widely-used software?
14:41:38  Sgeo: it actually had a source for that statement, http://blogs.tedneward.com/2005/08/22/When+Do+You+Use+XML+Again.aspx
14:41:50  Sgeo: ant is awful
14:44:22  That sounds like an apology for an aspect of Ant
14:45:34   it sometimes doesn't form new connections for something like a minute, even though existing connections work fine <-- maybe some firewall issue?
14:46:04  05:43:49  yay, my paper was accepted
14:46:04  which?
14:47:08  one about hardware compilation
14:47:33  to be precise, we generalised a previous result from "programs that type in SCI can be compiled into hardware" to "programs that type in ICA can be compiled into hardware, with a few exceptions"
14:47:51  which is pretty nice, because unlike SCI, ICA doesn't have a bunch of arbitrary restrictoins
14:47:54  *restrictions
14:48:17  it was really much the same as a TC-ness proof, showing one lang compiles into another...
14:49:45  ais523: how's the Complex Systems publication going? ;)
14:50:04  revise-and-resubmit phase
14:50:14  with instructions that were too banal for me to be interested in them
14:52:05  heh
15:07:17  22:12:52  Please help me. I tried to compile TeX but it just made a lot of errors, and it won't compile.
15:07:21  zzo38: you don't compile TeX itself...
15:07:24  you compile the C translation
15:07:33  it's written in a crazy 70s Pascal that Knuth used
15:07:49  23:24:05  What could probably be done, although it would take a very long time, is looking at the source-codes of TeX and rewriting it in Enhanced CWEB, changing things as necessary as you are moving along.
15:07:51  again, the C translation
15:07:54  23:28:30  Are you willing to collaborate on this project?
15:07:55  hell no
15:08:23  at some point I need to figure out what Enhanced CWEB is
15:08:30  I can't even tell if it's a programming language or not
15:09:00  ais523: you know Knuth's CWEB?
15:09:07  no, I don't
15:09:11  ais523: you know Knuth's WEB?
15:09:22  again no, but I've vaguely heard of it
15:09:42  ais523: WEB = the first literate programming system; TeX + Pascal. TeX is written in it, for instance.
15:09:58  Assign blocks of code to a name-with-spaces, include it later, macros, documentation all around it, etc.
15:10:01  ais523: CWEB = that for C.
15:10:05  ah, OK
15:10:10  ais523: Enhanced CWEB = what happens when you apply zzo38 to CWEB and peel it off after a few days.
15:10:14  and Enhanced CWEB is a zzo38 version
15:10:34  hmm, what's the converse of Not Invented Here?
15:10:47  when you assume that the entire world uses software that was written by you?
15:11:11  that seems to be unique to zzo38 and Microsoft
15:11:40  ais523: zzo38 has NIH too, though!
15:11:54  except it tends to be Not Invented Here, But That's Okay, I'll Cannibalise It
15:11:57  yes, the converse of something being true doesn't mean that the thing itself is false
15:12:01  indeed
15:12:06  ais523: hmm
15:12:12  ais523: Used Elsewhere
15:12:16  ais523: Used Everywhere
15:12:30  Microsoft: NIH, UE; zzo38: NIHBTOICI, UE
15:23:48 -!- sftp has joined.
15:31:04  alise, btw perhaps you know I'm against eyecandy animations and such? Today I realised what exactly is the issue with a lot of them
15:32:40  that they are slow enough that you end up having to wait before you can do whatever you planned to do next. For minimising windows on OS X, it is quite fast but still, I had to wait before I could start reading the text in the window behind due to the animation covering it, only a fraction of a second, but still enough to be annoying.
15:33:12  similar issues seem to apply to many other such animations.
15:33:23  Vorpal: That's just bad design.
15:34:08  Vorpal: A *good* hiding animation -- one that smoothly indicates what's happening -- would last only a few milliseconds, and the window would go semi-transparent too.
15:34:18  Perhaps even simply fade out *while on the way* to the dock.
15:34:38  This would help indicate what has happened -- believe it or not, your brain *can* act more efficiently with these cues -- without being irritating.
15:34:38  alise, indeed that would work, but that was not what that version of OS X did at least.
15:34:47  Vorpal: btw, you change and speed that animation up.
15:34:50  *you can
15:35:01  change: system preferences -> set it to the one that isn't genie, stops it being irritating as fuck
15:35:04  speed up: some terminal bullshit
15:35:06  alise, was helping someone with a thing, not my computer
15:35:09  yeah
15:35:18  anyway, it wasn't the genie one
15:35:21  that one is far worse
15:35:49 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:36:11  hi cpressey
15:37:20  alise, but anyway, the os x minimising is just a rather extreme example of it (especially the genie style), there are lots of other such animations on both windows (vista or later only) and OS X that takes a fraction of a second too long. Sure there are some that don't annoy, but I guess you don't really remember those. Selective reporting and such.
15:37:44  Modern UIs aren't designed with HCI principles in mind; news at 11.
15:38:01  hah
15:38:04  Jef Raskin died, now even less people care; news at 11.
15:38:07  *fewer
15:38:55  alise, the "zoom icon in dock while mouse is above it" is instantaneous as far as I remember, and is actually slightly helpful, at least if set to sane parameters for zoom level and such
15:39:27  Vorpal: It's not instantaneous -- it's... continuous.
15:39:35  As in, literally, the zoom changes focus even half-way between two icons.
15:39:44  The first hover over has a short animation to do the first zoom-and-expand of the Dock.
15:39:47  yes, but I meant like:
15:40:06  it doesn't take half a second if you quickly move your mouse down from middle of screen to the dock
15:40:06  I never turned it on; I could never predict where my mouse should go to reach an icon, due to the zooming.
15:40:10  Right.
15:40:11  as soon as it is above it is zoomed
15:40:29  It probably helps a lot if you have tons of stuff in your Dock and thus have it at a small size.
15:40:36  probably
15:41:52  alise, or menus/submenus that takes a fraction of a second before they open. iirc windows xp had something like that. Was annoying.
15:42:04  not an animation, but utterly pointless and not helpful at all
15:42:07  Vorpal: Uhh, as for submenus, GTK has that too.
15:42:09  As does KDE.
15:42:11  As does OS X.
15:42:16  As does *every interface you use*.
15:42:20  It's a shorter delay, but it's there.
15:42:32  Otherwise moving your mouse across tons of elements quickly would have menus flash everywhere.
15:42:33  alise, yes, short enough to not notice, that's the key
15:42:35  Disorienting, to say the least.
15:42:47  Vorpal: Try it now; I bet you will notice.
15:42:48  windows xp had "long enough to be annoying"
15:42:59  There's certainly a noticeable delay here, just not an annoying one or one you think about.
15:43:00  Vorpal: Well, yeah.
15:43:03  You could tweak that with TweakUI.
15:43:09  alise, indeed there is a tiny delay
15:43:23  alise, yes indeed, but why not make it right from the start
15:43:33  Vorpal: "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
15:43:46  TweakUI was released after XP. I don't think they changed the delay since at least 2000.
15:43:49  Maybe even before that.
15:44:00  And TweakUI's policy is basically "EXPOSE EVERYTHING", not "LET PEOPLE FIX EVERYTHING"
15:44:12  alise, as for menus all over the place, not really annoying, classic mac OS used to do it that way. As do some other windowing toolkits
15:44:18 * alise decides to run OS X in VirtualBox.
15:44:21  (on *nix)
15:44:22  "Hey, it can do EFI."
15:44:31  Although I'll have to emulate a 32-bit machine so this will be *fun fun fun*.
15:44:42  Oh god, it's distributed on a DVD, isn't it.
15:44:44  Plan abandoned.
15:45:14  (Yes, I have a copy of Leopard; no, I don't have an optical drive.)
15:45:28  when the base install of an OS doesn't fit on a single CD, something is wrong. :P
15:45:45  Vorpal: Yeah! Fuck you Slackware and Fedora!
15:45:51  Slackware is well-known for its bloat.
15:45:53  Totally.
15:46:14  alise, hm.... ubuntu: single cd, arch; single cd. And I don't mean netinstall.
15:46:22  Gentoo: single cd last I looked
15:46:33  though iirc they had a livedvd as well
15:46:34  Vorpal: It's simply a different distribution philosophy -- with the Slackware CDs, you can install anything you want.
15:46:46  hm
15:46:51  Vorpal: It *does* suck, though.
15:47:05  But it isn't indicative of bloat.
15:47:14  (Well, in OS X's case, it basically is.)
15:47:23  (To be fair, there is also a whole lot of stuff on there.)
15:47:36  alise, also note I said "base install". The definition of base install is rather fuzzy indeed. I would say it is completely different for arch and ubuntu for example
15:47:46  Still, you can fit your base install on a single CD just by defining a base install that's small.
15:47:46  bbl
15:47:48  Safari, all the i* programs, GarageBand, every single damn developer tool, misc. applications
15:47:56  pikhq: "Base install: The kernel!"
15:47:56  err
15:48:03  I think you can just about get Debian on a small stack of floppies still.
15:48:16  as long as i have butterflies flitting around on my desktop i'm happy
15:48:24  I know the *installer* still takes up 2 floppies.
15:48:55  pikhq, has some minimum requirements. Bootable, useable package manager, some way to edit config files, a shell, can connect to network. Arch is pretty close to that minimum.
15:49:26  Vorpal: I... Can do that on a single floppy disk.
15:49:30  *Barely*.
15:50:26  pikhq, indeed, it might be possible. However arch comes with a usable environment on the livecd too. Like you get a shell there. Useful to start any non-standard stuff like software raid or dmcrypt or such.
15:51:13  pikhq, and fitting that on a floppy as well would be.... tricky
15:51:31  pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve.
15:51:43  pikhq, besides the kernel I need to boot my system, all the drivers I need compiled in and almost everything else turned off is about 2.5 MB iirc.
15:51:48  x86-64 though
15:51:53  Vorpal: No, you can have VESA.
15:51:57  You just don't want VESA.
15:52:17  alise, I do have VESA fb :P, and I have a system with just VGA, no fb support at all
15:52:23  not sure of kernel size
15:52:36  pikhq: Actually, howsabout figuring out a way to have functions on structures look nicer to call, and we can go from there and use that for namespaces.
15:52:37  and not going to boot it atm
15:52:58  hmm, that was a fun conversation
15:53:04  ais523, what was?
15:53:17  I was talking to my supervisor and another researcher about implementing the fixed-point combinator in hardware
15:53:19 -!- yorick has joined.
15:53:58  rather unambitiously, they agreed that even third-order fixedpoint combinators ((a->a)->(a->a))->a were practically useful
15:54:07   pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. <-- hm, not impossible, what about having some syntax sugar for appending a prefix to all identifiers, I guess that would approach C++ name mangling quickly, though with just namespaces you could do far cleaner than that
15:54:14  although I think you can get up to arbitrary orders (with the caveat that such circuits always have a risk of running out of memory)
15:54:24  Vorpal: I mean without modifying the language.
15:54:38  alise, ah...
15:54:47 -!- sshc_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:54:48  is preprocessing allowed?
15:54:50  alise: #define, #define, #define.  done.
15:55:00  alise, _ for all identifiers?
15:55:04  Vorpal: You can put everything as function pointers in a structure, but (1) that's ugly to construct and (2) you'd start wanting to be able to do foo->x(...) for a structure foo to mean foo->x(foo, ...) which is harder :-)
15:55:09  Vorpal: but normally you want to be able to import namespaces
15:55:12  Vorpal: that's ugly and makes everything unconcise
15:55:15  ais523: not necessarily
15:55:26  even being able to just rename a namespace temporarily would be fine
15:55:28  e.g. gui to g
15:55:31  yes, that too
15:55:49  alise, is non-cpp preprocessing allowed?
15:56:26  alise, I mean, with a custom preprocessor this would be simple. You could make one small enough to compile as the first step in the makefile or such
15:56:49  now bbl really
15:57:04  m4!
15:57:11  <3 m4
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15:58:29  alise: what about preprocessing?
15:58:57  if only #define did pattern-matching.  you could hack something together quite nicely i think
15:58:59  yorick: cpp, sure
15:59:05  if you have to, I guess a simple textual substitution too
15:59:09  but nothing that involves tons of parsing :P
15:59:13  alise: but what about?
15:59:20  yorick: ?
15:59:29  what do you want to accomplish?
15:59:31  goal?
15:59:35  see above.......
15:59:57 * yorick can't find
16:00:15   pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve.
16:00:16  onwards
16:00:17  hmm, I wonder if upp (which I haven't actually written yet, properly) would work for this?
16:00:23  ais523: upp? *scared*
16:00:30  the Underlambda Preprocessor
16:00:44  alise: what about namespaces in C
16:00:44  it basically just does literal textual substitutions, but with a couple of interesting twists
16:01:03  and is powerful enough to compile Underlambda into subsets of itself
16:01:23  yorick: see later on.
16:01:50  it's lacking context!
16:01:55  see logs
16:02:21  let's see, it has only two commands
16:02:30  one is / on a line by itself, which does nothing but which is referenced by the other command
16:02:37  and the other is a/b for any character strings a and b
16:02:38  ais523: is "itself" bound to Underlambda or upp?
16:02:44  cpressey: to Underlambda
16:02:47  k
16:02:53 * yorick arghs
16:02:58  cpressey: if it wasn't it'd be a trivial statement :)
16:03:18  since it means a subset of it could do underlambda code
16:03:18  what that does, is it substitutes all instances of a with b in a) the thing you're preprocessing; b) the preprocessor program itself, but only beyond the next lone /
16:03:21  alise: i dunno, a preprocessor that can compile a language into subsets of a preprocessor...
16:03:22  meaning the full thing is TC
16:03:25  meaning it could compile it
16:03:35  alise: for example, where are you responding to
16:03:40  additionally, a/b will not substitute in text that itself was produced by a substitution, unless a lone / has executed in the meantime
16:03:48  what*
16:03:57  yorick: nothing
16:04:01  there, that's pretty simple
16:04:16  but it lets you do block-replacements of fundamental commands, defining them in terms of each other
16:04:28   pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. <-- that has a "pikhq" in front of it
16:04:31  What are you lovable geeks discussing at the moment?
16:04:45  alise: even if it were TC, that wouldn't imply the statement was trivial
16:05:17  Phantom_Hoover: implementing fixed-point combinators and typed lambda calculus in hardware; namespaces in C; preprocessing Underlambda
16:05:30  also a metaconversation about what conversations are running
16:05:41  OK.
16:06:09  Phantom_Hoover: personally, no clue
16:06:23  cpressey: i suppose not
16:06:26  yorick: i was addressing pikhq.
16:06:47  alise: about what? :/
16:06:57  yorick: about "Namespaces in C: solve."
16:07:05  oh.
16:07:07 * yorick gets it
16:09:19  Hmm... Skin overheating by having laptops on lap for too long... Article included talk about cancer... I wonder if PUFA oxidation due to heat is involved...
16:10:20  Ilari: Only if you use a stupid laptop with an overly-hot processor :)
16:10:27  And the fan too low.
16:11:52  Of course, enough heat / radiation will damage skin no matter what, but stuff like PUFA concentrations could determine how sensitive or resistant one is (PUFAs are chemically unstable)...
16:12:30  pikhq: Do you have any opinions on Go?
16:13:44  ais523: heh, remember that mergesort I said I couldn't figure out what was wrong with?
16:13:52  ais523: changing "< end" to "<= end-1" fixed it.
16:13:55  (not mine)
16:14:01  wait what?
16:14:09  was it using floats as loop counters?
16:14:25  (and non-integer floats, at that?)
16:14:32  or a buggy compiler?
16:14:37  or was the code/ really/ isane?
16:14:39  *insane
16:14:54  ais523: well, in this case, floating point was involved, but there wasn't a loop counter
16:15:00  it was comparing elements in an array
16:15:07  ah, and those were floats?
16:15:10  ais523: and tl;dr using floating-point infinity to denote end of array makes weird shit happen
16:15:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:15:56  oh, I see
16:16:02  screwing with infinities tends to do that
16:17:04  FP also has other weird shit like +0 and -0 are seperate numbers (that's actually useful in calculations).
16:18:04 -!- lament has joined.
16:18:28  Never did I think I'd see the day when there was a lambda calculus reference in a Star Wars webcomic.
16:24:26  pikhq: So, BF compilation.
16:27:00 -!- atrapado has joined.
16:27:42 -!- sshc has joined.
16:28:36  Go fialed horribly
16:28:38  failed*
16:29:25  Knot theory in Coq: has it been done?
16:30:03  It doesn't look like it from the first few Google results...
16:30:52  Knot theory in Coq 2: is it even sane?
16:31:30  hmm, I was just looking at the Linux manpage reboot(2)
16:31:37  and I get the feeling I'm missing something
16:31:47 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:31:55  some of the hex numbers were obfuscated by being translated to decimal, for no really obvious reason
16:32:01  and I don't see any significance in the hex either
16:32:53  on the Commodore 64 TCP/IP stack: "It doesn't do state tracking. It puts the state in the TCP sequence numbers. Save on RAM by passing state back and forth through the network."
16:33:10  that's... ingenious
16:33:13  ais523: one is linus' birthday
16:33:14  iirc
16:33:20  they all have significance as numbers
16:33:22  ah, OK
16:33:33  ais523: I know this because I wrote a program that calls it relatively recently :P
16:33:34  I was assuming it was something NSFW, based on how oblique they were being
16:33:49  heh
16:34:04  ais523: LINUX_REBOOT_* are constants for them in the kernel, RB_* in glibc
16:34:09  i suggest using the hex directly to avoid the headache
16:34:09  I understand the purpose (to make sure that reboot isn't called by mistake by a program in undefined behavior)
16:35:01  so, I am pretty sure my mind faked Wake-Induced Lucid Dreams to me today
16:36:06  as in, I was dreaming, and my mind made me think I was falling asleep consciously, and provided fake hypnagogic imagery and sounds to fool me into this
16:36:09  is that when you think you dream of waking up and are currently in a lucid dream, but actually you woke up for real?
16:36:14  leading to a dream-in-a-dream
16:36:22  lament: WILD is just a method of achieving lucid dreams
16:36:36  you stay conscious but become very relaxed and let your body go to sleep
16:36:44  sort of related to meditation, I guess
16:37:00  lament: but I think my dream decided to start with me falling asleep using WILD
16:37:13  alise: it sometimes end up dreaming I've worken up
16:37:14  and manufactured some hypnagogic imagery and (really irritating clanging) sounds to go with it
16:37:15  *wokrn
16:37:17  *wokrn
16:37:18  I should practice lucid dreaming some more
16:37:18  *woken
16:37:21  leading to a fumbled attempt at a lucid dream inside a non-lucid dream
16:37:24  where everything was hideously unrealistic
16:37:33  sometimes before i fully got "into" a dream induced that way
16:37:33  and gone through my normal morning routine
16:37:34  i tried to move
16:37:40  and then actually woken up and had to do it all over again
16:37:40  and i saw a flicker of the "real world" and me moving slightly in it
16:37:43  so I thought, I'm not asleep enough for that
16:37:45  but that can't be right
16:37:48  because you're paralysed by that point
16:37:52  and completely asleep
16:38:01  so I'm fairly sure that if i had let that happen, I'd have "woken up" into an actual dream
16:38:10  and presumably have performed a reality check due to the circumstances...
16:38:15  but i was too stupid to realise this at the time :)
16:38:17  then i woke up for real
16:38:19  ...or have I
16:38:23  OH GOD I HAVE 7 FINGERS
16:38:26 * alise has quit (Connection reset by peer)
16:38:28  once you know you have to perform a reality check, everything becomes pretty easy
16:38:29 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
16:38:41  but somehow, you rarely think of doing that in a dream
16:38:50  ais523: yeah I just look at my hands and if I have fingers sprouting out of my other fingers I just jump out the nearest window
16:38:58  that's the easiest way to get places in a dream!
16:39:04  (note: if I ever end up with deformed hands, I am so dead)
16:39:27  alise: oh, I tend to invent methods of transportation in my dreams
16:39:33  I tried the reality checks...most of them give false negatives inside dreams :/
16:39:41 -!- alise has left (?).
16:39:42 -!- alise has joined.
16:39:45   as in, I was dreaming, and my mind made me think I was falling asleep consciously, and provided fake hypnagogic imagery and sounds to fool me into this <-- hm, soon there is no way we can trust anything :P
16:39:46  yorick: hands always works for me
16:39:54  I either have more than five fingers, or fingers are placed in ways that geometry doesn't quite allow
16:40:01  Vorpal: I N C E P T I O N
16:40:01  you know about the science-fiction idea of going somewhere distant via going there over the course of years (at near-lightspeed), but in such a way that the people aboard don't perceive most of it?
16:40:03 * quintopia checks his totem
16:40:11  alise, rings a bell but can't place it
16:40:16  what a strange discussion
16:40:18  ais523: I haven't heard of it, but go on.
16:40:23  alise: my fingers are always fine while I'm dreaming...and I can even touch them
16:40:24  obtw there is a channel for this
16:40:27  I never remember to perform reality checks when dreaming...
16:40:29  well, when I move around in my dreams, it's normally using a means of transport that does that over really short distances
16:40:30  Foonetic/#lucidity
16:40:31  Vorpal: a recent film about nested dreams-within-dreams
16:40:43  and I very rarely remember my dreams
16:40:44  Vorpal: and people from higher levels of dreams being able to change them and stuff
16:40:46  I haven't seen it
16:40:47  alise: I haven't tried breathing with my nose closed yet :/
16:40:49  but it sounds worth watching
16:40:54  some sort of capsule thing that takes days to go just a few miles, but you're unconcious for most of it so don't care
16:40:56  alise, heh
16:40:58  yorick: the fun thing with more than five fingers
16:40:59  is that you can feel them!
16:41:04  you can use a finger to touch a fake one
16:41:06  alise: :o  it was the best movie of the summer what's taking you so long?
16:41:09  and it feels like a strange buzzy feeling
16:41:13  quintopia: i'm lazy
16:41:23  alise, did you go into a lucid dream just to recreate Inception?
16:41:30  Because that is awesome.
16:41:30  Phantom_Hoover: :D
16:41:34  the thing that really annoys me about Inception, is that it seems that everyone who watches it goes to everyone they know and says "I watched Inception"
16:41:34  my mind did
16:41:45  to the extent that I worry that it's specifically designed to brainwash people into doing that
16:41:46  ais523: you know, you *can* just invent a magic mirror
16:41:47 * yorick was invisible last time :)
16:41:49  ais523, it's that cool.
16:41:53  you don't have to have sci-fi dreams
16:42:11  alise: I suppose it's to do with the sort of transport I use in RL
16:42:12  ais523: topic-quote!
16:42:23  I rarely move around via the fastest method
16:42:30  ais523: well, i did that, but i also saw it on the night it came out, so it wasn't a trend yet.  now people do it because everyone keeps pestering everyone to see it so they have to tell them to stop the pestering
16:42:37  many of my esolang ideas are developed waiting at bus shelters
16:42:43 * quintopia pesters alise and ais523 
16:42:44  ais523: Somehow, even when I'm totally lucid though, I can't convince myself that I can control reality. As in: it requires absolute belief in that what you're about to do will work to change the gameworld. I am apparently too rational to summon up such faith.
16:42:45  quintopia: oh, I see
16:42:53  ais523: This saddens me.
16:42:55  ais523, and a really strange transport method
16:43:16  alise: it works better if you invent a pseudoscience explanation, even if you don't believe in pseudoscience
16:43:19  ais523: Maybe I should become religious for the practice.
16:43:27  ais523: Unfortunately my periods of lucidity also tend to be short. :(
16:43:39  yeah...same...but you can prolong them :)
16:43:40  shift into the fourth dimension, do stuff there, with the knowledge that you can manipulate that based on the fact that you own the device that lets you go there in the first place
16:43:42  Also, I tend to sleep only when I'm really tired on weekends; this rarely seems to lead to dreams I remember for me.
16:43:46 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:43:51  alise: you only sleep once a week?
16:43:52  (spinning around will mostly work)
16:43:56  ais523, start traveling by train until you finish of the current unfinished ones then!
16:43:56 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try defining the braid group in Coq for the halibut.
16:43:57  yorick: I've done the tactics, like feeling a brick wall a lot and staring at the details.
16:43:59  ais523: Har har.
16:44:04  yorick: It never works.
16:44:09  oh, I misparsed your sentence
16:44:09  alise: works for me
16:44:17  reality check: can anyone here pinpoint the last time they had a stereotypical dream?
16:44:18  yorick: As soon as I move away and stop looking like someone with Down's syndrome, everything becomes fuzzy again.
16:44:19  I didn't even notice it was ambiguous until you assumed I was being sarcastic
16:44:25  alise, do it the mathematical way!
16:44:30  quintopia: even my stereotypical dreams are rather non-stereotypical
16:44:31  quintopia: wut?
16:44:35  Make the geometry hyperbolic!
16:44:42  alise: maybe...the brick thing works better?
16:44:49  ais523: with normal days, I don't sleep long enough for a nice lucid dream really
16:44:52  alise, there are some very common dreams and nightmares.
16:44:54  yorick: So just stare at a brick the whole time??
16:45:04  Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, I don't get them though. Or at least I never remember them
16:45:04  alise: how am I supposed to have bricks?
16:45:09  aka, a dream where your teeth are falling out and/or a dream where you are having trouble controlling a car/driving it from the back seat
16:45:10  yorick: ?????????
16:45:13  or maybe flying
16:45:15   yorick: I've done the tactics, like feeling a brick wall a lot and staring at the details.   alise: works for me
16:45:20   yorick: As soon as I move away and stop looking like someone with Down's syndrome, everything becomes fuzzy again.   alise: maybe...the brick thing works better?
16:45:30  (17:43) <     alise> yorick: It never works.
16:45:33  I think I've had some serious up-messery of my scale perception before
16:45:34  (17:43) <    yorick> alise: works for me
16:45:34  quintopia: I have never had any of those dreams.
16:45:38  quintopia, err...
16:45:40  i've had both of the former in the last month but I can't remember exactly when.  I haven't flown since I was a child.
16:45:43  yorick: "how am I supposed to have bricks?" what does this mean
16:45:48  alise: how am I supposed to find bricks to stare at
16:45:49  But that was while trying to get to sleep, not actually once sleeping.
16:45:54  yorick: Uhh, leave the house you're in.
16:45:56  Look at the bricks.
16:45:57  quintopia, I guess stereotypical dreams differ between persons
16:46:00  yorick: You said works for me; presumably you already do this.
16:46:02  So why are you asking me?
16:46:12  alise, my house isn't made of bricks!
16:46:13  alise: because I recognize the feeling if it becoming fuzzy again
16:46:17  Vorpal: well, had any dreams that sound similar to those ideas?
16:46:19  I AM DISABLED
16:46:22  quintopia, not at all
16:46:23  alise: and yes, mostly the places I dream of are not made of bricks
16:46:32  quintopia, I never seem to have recurring themes in my dreams either
16:46:38  hmm, both my house and my workplace are made of bricks
16:46:56  usually either polished plastic or metal
16:46:56  Vorpal: mine rarely have recurring themes, but they tend to have consistent geography with each other
16:47:01  Phantom_Hoover: My most common recurring nightmare when I was young was -- imagine a zoomed-out satellite picture of a huge city on a regular British day -- not sunny, not raining. A ladder: I am on this ladder. It stretches down to the ground; my vision is that satellite picture. At the top: A hot air balloon. Someone in it -- that I recognise, encourages me to climb up further.
16:47:05  I do so.
16:47:09  which is unusual mostly in that the geography in the dreams is /not/ the same as the real world
16:47:12  ais523, that is a theme by the definition I used
16:47:15  But before I get close to the balloon, the ladder tips forwards and falls away.
16:47:16  i have had a few recurring themes.  but my best dreams are one time only
16:47:18  I start falling and wake up.
16:47:20  Vorpal: ah, OK
16:47:40  my most recurring nightmares currently is being stabbed/shot by my friends :/
16:47:42  alise: oh, you mean a solid ladder, rather than a rope ladder, etc.
16:47:42  ais523: interestingly, I universally start lucid dreams in a warped version of my old bedroom
16:47:46  ais523: yes, metal
16:47:48  are*
16:47:48  My dreams are either really boring or all very slippery in memory.
16:47:49  that's balanced on the balloon?
16:47:55  ais523: although it's only barely resting on the hot air balloon IIRC
16:47:57  ais523, I remember having two dreams tonight, one when the alarm clock woke me up, and one when it woke me up again after 5 minutes of snooze
16:48:01  so there's no real reason it should stay up for that long
16:48:02  that could be an interesting situation to set up in RL
16:48:04  ais523, I don't remember what they were about
16:48:06  but this *is* a dream
16:48:12  ais523: interesting, ha, you'll never see me on it :D
16:48:13  dream physics is different
16:48:15  ais523: anyway it was ridiculously high
16:48:19  like literally
16:48:37  I looked down and big landmarks were like my thumb and ... whatever the finger next to the thumb is curled together
16:48:41  alise: "ridiculously high" is about as accurate as you can get for dream physics
16:48:47  and "index finger"
16:49:02  The Millennium Dome wouldn't be very big, even.
16:49:15  I was *seriously* high up.
16:49:16  as for nightmares, haven't had one that woke up and/or that I remembered for months. Probably years
16:50:08  ais523: Anyway, it's weird -- once the ladder tipped forwards, it basically disappeared
16:50:09  strangely, the detail that normally causes me to reality-check and wake up is something really minor
16:50:13   alise: "ridiculously high" is about as accurate as you can get for dream physics <-- hm
16:50:14  last dream I remembered was having a conversation with the news-guy on the alarm clock when it was about to wake me up yesterday
16:50:24  alise: of course it did, a ladder that tall can't stand on end without something to support it
16:50:24  ais523, I have a vague memory of seeing an altimeter in a dream
16:50:26  so it clearly doesn't exist
16:50:35  I rarely wake up after a reality check, but lucidity never lasts long.
16:50:37  ais523: :D
16:50:40  ais523: I never said I became lucid
16:50:42  (note: this logic /actually works/ in dream physics)
16:50:53  ais523: I've always wanted to end a lucid dream by setting pi to 3.
16:51:05  I imagine everything would explode in a whirl of circles and I'd wake up as my dream physics engine crashes.
16:51:05 * yorick has never done a reality check that came out negative :/
16:51:09  ais523, it was reading out something like "8238aj and half a donut" or something equally ridiculous though, though it seemed normal in the dream
16:51:16  yorick: try looking at a clock, look away, check it again
16:51:18  or try reading
16:51:20  reading is impossible in dreams
16:51:27  yorick: well, it mostly happens for me when not lucid; I'm not sure if I've ever been properly lucid
16:51:33  either I just go "wth...I'm dreaming!", or "I must be dreaming, lets try a reality check...no it never works"
16:51:35  but sometimes I randomly decide to reality-check and it comes out negative
16:51:35  you can only focus four words at a time and you can never seem to read them, and if you look even to the right a bit then back they'll have changed
16:51:44  and that always causes me to instantly wake up
16:51:45  yorick: you need to reality check in *usual* situations
16:51:49  the whole point is that dreams never seem unusual
16:51:50  alise: I tried that once, it pointed to 4:01 twice
16:51:51  I had a dream last night with a terrible book about Python in it.  (The text was English prose, but it was syntax-highlighted similarly to Python...)
16:51:52  so you can't rely on that
16:51:56  I envy your entertaining dreams.
16:51:59  cpressey: wat :D
16:52:04  cpressey: you've been using pastebins too much
16:52:11  cpressey: :D
16:52:12  Phantom_Hoover: i had an awesome dream recently
16:52:18  alise, no reading is possible, as long as you don't try again or actually try to read. I dreamed reading street signs, as well as numbers a few times.
16:52:22  there was some sort of thing similar to a zombie apocalypse but not quite
16:52:24  i'm certain i've read in dreams
16:52:30  it was like being in an action film, you know you can't die, it's just awesome
16:52:35  ais523: I've been looking at too much Python, that's for sure.
16:52:41  alise, I didn't actually read though, just kind of dreamed that I had
16:52:42  also I did LSD twice... not sure why
16:52:49  bad idea
16:52:53  it seemed like a good idea at the time
16:52:56  alise: clocks work in my dreams, so does reading
16:53:04  ais523: (what was "bad idea" to?)
16:53:11  alise: trying LSD
16:53:15  ais523: why?
16:53:24  instead of getting lucid dreams, you get non-lucid real life
16:53:29  it feels strange to see it being 4:01 pm on sunday, then waking up and, 8 hours later, see it being 4:01 pm on sunday again
16:53:43  also, there's an experiment someone did once where they'd present some text on a screen to read, and they'd do pupil tracking, and every time they caught a saccade, they'd replace what the viewer was just looking at with different text.
16:53:45  which is kind-of the worst of both worlds
16:53:45  ais523: I'd say ego death is a bit more than simple non-lucidity...
16:53:50  alise, trying LSD in a dream or?
16:53:54  alise: well, yes
16:53:58 * Phantom_Hoover reads the wiki.
16:54:04  quintopia: that's just horribly evil
16:54:06  and because the eyes can't really detect such subtle changes when saccading, it was really disturbing trying to read it...
16:54:07  quintopia: that seems evil
16:54:09  what happened?
16:54:12  ais523: besides, I'm pretty sure you can't think "hey, this isn't realistic" when you're on LSD
16:54:21  alise: yep
16:54:32  ais523: i don't even know what they were trying to test for.  i should look it up again.
16:54:36  I have almost a religious level of horror/abhorrance at things that affect my ability to think straight
16:54:46  ais523: but that doesn't matter because you'd be idiotic to do it without someone who's done it before around.
16:54:47  quintopia: who cares, that's a great experiment anyway
16:54:50  ehh, it's on my list of things to try some day
16:54:53  "it's the .NET framework, most people already have it on their computer" how does someone this stupid write anything that comes near working?
16:54:55  ego death sounds fun
16:54:57  i should try LSD sometime.  i need a good babysitter tho
16:55:04  lol babysitter
16:55:13  Phantom_Hoover: hmm, most people with a computer probably /do/ have the .NET framework installed
16:55:19  you've seen the LSD sketching experiment haven't you?
16:55:24  i wanna try that on myself
16:55:24  I'm assuming that most Windows XP users have needed it for something by now
16:55:30 * yorick does not
16:55:31  bbl
16:55:32  ...but not with quite as high a dose
16:55:38  meh, I have Mono installed even though I'm on Linux
16:55:53  due to an occasional need to run .NET programs
16:56:04  quintopia: i'm not sure that was lsd
16:56:08  Wait, that's what Mono does?
16:56:11  alise: def was
16:56:17  quintopia: if it was, it must have been a mild dose, surely
16:56:23  alise: huge dose
16:56:23  Phantom_Hoover: it's a .NET bytecode interpreter, plus libraries
16:56:25  so pretty much
16:56:26  quintopia: i doubt anyone could draw on a regular dose of LSD.
16:56:38  alise: you've clearly not seen the experiment
16:56:42  quintopia: i have
16:56:52  quintopia: but i'm having a hard idea of perceiving someone pick up a pencil and put it on paper
16:57:10  well, they basically had to force him to, and at a certain point even that didn't work
16:58:02  high doses of LSD are interesting, since the active dose is so incredibly, ridiculously small, but the fatal dose is ridiculously high
16:58:15  exactly
16:58:33  i think they gave the guy like 100mg or something like that
16:58:42  I can't imagine how they could possibly do anything more than a regular highish dose, though...
16:58:53  i mean, i'd say that's fairly close to the most anything can do to you :P
16:59:19  anyway in the dream LSD was pretty boring really, everything was just a certain colour and like a day passed in a few minutes and i was back where i started
16:59:28  the non-zombie 'pocalypse was much more fun
17:00:14  i was close.  apparently it was 100 g
17:00:14  alise: I assume that if you actually fell asleep while on LSD, the dreams you got (if any) wouldn't be that different from normal dreams anyway
17:00:31  quintopia: only out by a factor of 1000!
17:00:35  that's close in one sense, but not in another
17:00:41  ais523: well, in the first LSD trip, Albert Hofmann fell asleep (after a bad trip)
17:00:51  ais523: nah, it's only 3 orders of magnitude
17:00:54  ais523: and then woke up feeling tingly and joyful
17:00:57  after an uneventful night
17:00:59  1000 sounds like such a big number.  3 is better
17:01:13 -!- tombom has joined.
17:01:21  100 mg of LSD is well below the fatal dose, I think
17:01:24  yes, but orders of magnitude can be so much larger than individual units
17:01:28  (which is comparable to other drugs with active doses in the mgs)
17:01:33  (rather than the ... mugs)
17:02:02 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:02:03  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Drug_danger_and_dependence.png
17:02:06  active vs lethal doses
17:02:10  it's worrying enough that you can be affected by a microgram of anything, if you think about it; humans have a chemical balance so complex it can be upset by even that small an amount of a chemical
17:02:14  doesn't give absolute values, just the ratio
17:02:21  but LSD has the lowest
17:02:30  surprise, surprise, heroin has the highest
17:03:10  [[Typical doses in the 1960s ranged from 200 to 1000 µg while street samples of the 1970s contained 30 to 300 µg. By the 1980s, the amount had reduced to between 100 to 125 µg, lowering more in the 1990s to the 20–80 µg range,[14] and even more in the 2000s.[15] [16]]]
17:03:18  this makes it hard to figure out the fatal dose since it depends on the figures the graph is using :D
17:03:25  ah
17:03:35  "Estimates for the lethal dosage (LD50) of LSD range from between 200 µg/kg to more than 1 mg/kg of human body mass, though most sources report that there are no known human cases of such an overdose. Other sources note one report of a suspected fatal overdose of LSD occurring in November 1975 in Kentucky in which there were indications that ~1/3 of a gram (320 mg or 320,000 µg) had been injected intravenously. (This is a very extraordinary amount, partic
17:03:35  ularly when compared to the average LSD dosage of ~100 µg)."
17:04:31  by comparison, the lethal dose of water is around 8 kg
17:04:42  :-D
17:04:43  and even then, the antidotes are relatively simple and readily available
17:04:58  ais523: are you trying to say
17:05:00  "don't take LSD, take water"?
17:05:02  (pretty much anything that dissolves in water works, as long as it isn't dangerous to eat itself)
17:05:09  alise: I'm just trying to draw a comparison
17:05:12  hey man
17:05:13  :P
17:05:25  what if, like, we're all taking hundreds of ml of a drug every day??
17:05:32  IN THE WATER MAN
17:05:33  IN THE WATER
17:05:36  meh, I can get drunk on water pretty effectively anyway
17:05:43  and we're all hallucinating and lsd reveals the real stuff...
17:05:44  xD
17:05:46  no man!
17:05:50  tombom: I N C E P T I O N
17:05:51  what if the drug is.... water
17:05:53  T H E   M A T R I X
17:06:09 -!- sshc has joined.
17:06:16  So what is this Interpol language, and howcum it's not on the esowiki?
17:06:27  there's an esolang called Interpol?
17:06:34  howcum? simple
17:06:38  there's one with a simular name...
17:06:38  you kind of rub a bit
17:06:45  polol something
17:07:04  ais523: there's a *language* called Interpol, and it *looks* kinda esoteric: http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_ipol.txt
17:07:11  it would be interesting to see someone try 1 mg of LSD (10x the active dose; absolute minimum estimated lethal dose is 200 µg/kg, so you'd have to be something like 5kg for this to kill you)
17:07:28  quintopia: nopol?
17:07:31  hard to google for, tho
17:07:33  that's not a similar name, that's just oklopol
17:07:42  cpressey: well, you know Brian Raiter
17:07:51  and if he codes in it...
17:07:54  oklopol, interpol. . .same difference
17:08:01  quintopia: oklopol is a person
17:08:03  cpressey: i linked that yesterday btw
17:08:05  did you see it?
17:08:11  the last quine is my favourite
17:08:16  alise: yes.  that's why it's in my browser.  mocking me.
17:08:19  harfharfharfharfharfharfharfharfharfharf!
17:08:49  cpressey: gthompso@nyx.net
17:08:50  ask
17:08:56  or ask brian himself
17:09:00  alise: Brian Raiter works at Google, I doubt all his programming is in esolangs
17:09:15  breadbox [whirlpool] muppetlabs [spot] com
17:09:19  ais523: shaddap :)
17:09:33  alise: I didn't get a reply last time I sent a query there
17:09:37  although I can't remember what it was about
17:10:05  I never got a reply from the author of that WP7 INTERCAL interp either
17:11:11  hmm, according to a Reddit comment, ads on domain-parked pages have a click-through rate of 50-80%, because there's nothing else to click on
17:11:21 -!- pineal_aenimal has joined.
17:11:35  I can believe that the average Internet user doesn't realise that not every page needs to have a link followed from it
17:11:39  i can't believe that either
17:11:40  but it's still scary
17:11:57  [citation needed]
17:12:02  there wasn't one
17:12:12  then they made it up
17:12:35  possibly
17:12:44  quite a few people commenting in the thread were actual former domain parkers
17:13:19  you'd have to pick a good domain to get good results with that tho
17:13:50  yep, a high conversion rate is pointless if people never visit the site in the first place
17:16:00  ais523: Underload optimisation; discuss.
17:16:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:16:29  alise: apart from the S command, you can do quite a bit due to the side-effect-free nature of the language
17:16:41  ais523: the S command is sort of the point :P
17:16:44  given that going below the end of the stack crashes the program, any subprogram can only access finite stack
17:16:56  thus, it can be seen as a function
17:17:27  so Underload optimization works much like Haskell optimization, you just need to deal with the Ses somehow
17:17:36  hi oerjan
17:17:55  hi cpressey
17:18:23  S'es are simple, just treat the whole program as producing a list of output, surely?
17:18:46  oh hm
17:18:49  oerjan: that's effectively making them into a monad, which is one possible solution but one I've never seen used
17:19:13  well yeah
17:19:16  i was actually wondering last night how to make oerjan's kolakoski sequence generator manage to output more than a dozen digits on my C impl of underload
17:19:21  (before it crashes)
17:19:27  yay orange juice!
17:19:43  cpressey: tail recursion
17:19:51  alise: it does do tail recursion
17:20:07  i mean, my impl does.
17:20:13  INSUFFICIENT
17:20:21  INTERMITTENT
17:20:22  tail concatenation helps, too
17:20:26  ais523: Unlambda compilation; disgust.
17:20:29  well i don't recall the bots having a problem with it...
17:21:03  alise: or do you mean, write the underload program tail-recursively?  i don't even know how that would be possible
17:21:08  have I actually posted the source to derlo anywhere, yet?
17:21:20  cpressey: tail-recursion in Underload is a ^ just before a )
17:21:42  e.g. the standard infinite while loop is (:^):^, and any sane interp should be able to run that forever without overflowing stack, etc
17:22:00  well, I should just say "infinite loop", there's nothing /that/ while-loopy about it
17:22:08  it still shouldn't crash on a dozen digits, i doubt my program is _that_ space leaky :D
17:23:24  ais523: (^), the most pointless program ever; discuss
17:23:32  although (^)* might be useful for something
17:23:35  although what i know not
17:23:39  a(^)* is definitely silly, though
17:23:48  it's just a fancy identity
17:24:08  (^) is plausible for use as a data element in some encoding scheme
17:24:20  IIRC one of oerjan's programs used it, although I can't remember the context
17:24:37  arguably, (^) and (!) could be used for true and false
17:24:48  the rule 110 one, probably
17:25:14  true = (~!^); false = (!^), imo
17:25:17  at least useful true and false :P
17:25:32  alise: I normally use either those, or () and (!())
17:25:42  those are confusing
17:25:43  : and ^ were the simplest way to encode data using just 1 char per bit
17:25:43  wow.  i totally cannot think today.
17:25:44  if you append ^ to the second set, you get (^) and (!)
17:25:47  hmm, what's zero and one?
17:25:54  (!()) and () respectively
17:25:59  (^) almost reminds me of the standard Imp.  Someone should make a Underload Battle Arena for fighting Underload programs.
17:25:59  there you go then :P
17:26:08  : and a were also possible iirc but more messy
17:26:11  they make nice booleans because "loop n times" is easy in Underload
17:26:17  mm
17:26:18  so an if statement is "loop 0 times" vs. "loop 1 time"
17:26:23  ais523: i don't like how zero's different :<
17:26:30  it's unlike, e.g. the lambda calculus
17:26:34  church numerals
17:27:53  alise: it isn't really: you can construct the numbers as 0 = (()'!_), 1 = (()':_*'!_), 2 = (()':_*':_*'!_), etc
17:27:56  does anyone here like Logo?
17:28:03  they just happen to optimise into much neater forms
17:28:06  ais523: hey, no using underlambda syntax
17:28:07  :P
17:28:30  (that's underlambda; 'x = (x); _ = ~a*^)
17:28:43  nor is underlambda on esowiki
17:28:59  hmm, I'm missing some ~s there
17:29:03  cpressey: it's far from finished
17:29:07  cpressey: vapourware
17:29:07  and I tend not to put partial langs up there
17:29:09  like Feather
17:29:15  alise: less vapourware than Feather
17:29:15  featherware
17:29:21  because at least I have an idea where it's going
17:29:21  except with ais523 you can get close to the vapour and inhale
17:29:30  and for a few lovely minutes, your brain doesn't work at all
17:29:39  no change then
17:29:39  ais523: did you choose the underload command names so that source would naturally be littered with emoticons, or was that just happenstance?
17:29:41  as you try to understand retroactive non-synchronicitic variable term rewriting of the past
17:29:44  besides, aren't all my esolangs vaporware at some point
17:29:52  quintopia: it was clearly designed for (:aSS):aSS
17:29:57  quintopia: I tend to gravitate towards punctuation marks
17:30:02  you can even make an argument that that can be read as
17:30:06  the aSS thing is actually entirely concidental
17:30:07  "push double ass, double ass"
17:30:21  if it were deliberate, it would have been properly capitalisd
17:30:40  (because : is dup)
17:30:57  ais523: any objections to me removing [[Underload#Self-interpreter]]?
17:31:00  it's ridiculous and blatantly false
17:31:09  I don't mind
17:31:18  it's "correct" in a joke-esolang sort of way
17:31:30  ais523: right, but keymaker was serious at the time :)
17:31:30  but pretty much every lang has a self-interp on that basis
17:31:43  Ah, my bad. I honestly didn't think about it, this idea of passing control is obvious now, but quite new to me. I was thinking along the lines that if the data gets run, it's interpreted. :) Anyways, how would one convert the Underload program to Church numerals? (I have no idea about those.) And would some other encoding be ok (probably would)? And what would it be if my Underload-interpreter-in-brainfuck was modified to have the program we want to execute
17:31:43   directly in the memory without the interpreter reading it from user, and that brainfuck program was then converted to Underload with ais523's brainfuck-to-Underload program. Would that suffice? --Keymaker 14:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
17:31:59  the problem is that there are several different conceputal ways to think of Underload
17:32:07  and that method is perfectly natual in some, and abhorrent in others
17:32:20  "HTML source code" --you
17:32:21  aargh...
17:32:24  >__>
17:32:24  (S is a wart on the lang, in that it screws some of them up; Underlambda is going to redefine output to fix that, I just haven't decided how yet)
17:32:34  alise: well, it's hardly a binary
17:32:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:32:45  ais523: "HTML source" i would have accepted
17:32:49  "HTML markup" too
17:32:52  and "HTML code"?
17:32:53  so what would the correct way of writing a program that recursively interprets itself in underload (the same way that one that what's his name wrote for C does)?
17:32:54  :-P
17:32:57  ais523: no
17:33:02  ais523: it's markup!
17:33:07  okay so i'm not normally this anal
17:33:11  "HTML source code" just threw me off
17:33:20  is golfscript usable for anything but golfing?
17:33:21  quintopia: you'd have to write an interp for something, then quine into the lang that interp used as input
17:33:24  quintopia: for C?
17:33:28  hmm
17:33:29  i vaguely recall that
17:33:30  html is very code
17:33:31  was it C?
17:33:34  Vorpal: obviously, it permits embedded Ruby
17:33:45  lemme check
17:33:49  but then it sets it on fire
17:33:51  ais523, okay but apart from that, which is kind of cheating.
17:34:00  which reminds me, I want to make a usable application in pure CSS (plus a DOM element to start it off) someday
17:34:02  I think it's doable
17:34:10  even if it's sub-TC, you can still create something useful
17:34:20  ais523, what would it do?
17:34:28  also brb
17:34:31  ais523: well, you have content: and attr() (I think it's spelled like that)
17:34:33  some sort of state machine, I think
17:34:35  onvm
17:34:36  as well as hover and focus
17:34:42  i was thinking of madore's scheme self-interp
17:34:42  I was planning to use mouseovers for input
17:34:43  so you can do some things with it
17:34:46  well anyway
17:34:54  ais523: oh, and the custom-defined list numbering in CSS(is it 3? I think so)
17:34:57  lets you do ridiculous things
17:34:58  quintopia: underload interpreter in underload?
17:35:01  is there a really short way to do that in underload?
17:35:14  quintopia: an underload self-interp is non-trivial
17:35:21  although not that non-trivial
17:35:22  alise: thanks
17:35:22  alise: hmm, not really
17:35:29  ais523: mm, maybe not
17:35:44  you just need a lookup table and a bunch of concatenations
17:36:21  that reminds me, i want to do the meta-circular thing with a rewriting lang someday
17:36:33  but underload is somewhat interesting too
17:36:45  how simple *would* it be?
17:37:02  remind me what meta-circular means?  is that the name for the "evaluate string" as flow control idea?
17:37:06  choosing the input encoding looks like the hard bit ;D
17:37:18   you just need a lookup table and a bunch of concatenations
17:37:23  oh i thought it was about css counter stuff
17:37:26  but it's non-trivial, certainly
17:37:27  quintopia: an interpreter for language X, written in language X, basically
17:37:28  trivial is trivial
17:37:30  ^ul (!())((zero)(!^)(one)(!^)(two)(!^)(three)(!^)(four)(!^)(five)(!^)(six)(!^)(seven)(!^)(eight)(!^)(nine)(!^)(ten)())~(!!)~^^S^
17:37:30  (zero)(!^)(one)(!^)(two)(!^)(three)(!^)(four)(!^)(five)(!^)(six)(!^)(seven)(!^)(eight)(!^)(nine)(!^)(ten)() ...out of stack!
17:37:35  umm, I missed a ^
17:37:37  cpressey: *wrong*
17:37:44  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
17:37:50  that's just a self-interpreter
17:37:57  also, wrote the table backwards
17:38:09  I hate it when useful distinctions are lost due to people misusing terms...
17:38:25  yeah that's ironic *ducks*
17:38:47  oerjan: It's like rain / on your wedding day
17:39:15  alise: i did say "basically"
17:40:04  ^ul (!())(:*:*)(::**)(:*:*:*)(~(()(ten)(!^)(nine)(!^)(eight)(!^)(seven)(!^)(six)(!^)(five)(!^)(four)(!^)(three)(!^)(two)(!^)(one)(!^)(zero))~a*^(!!)~^^( )*S^:^):^
17:40:04  eight three four zero  ...out of stack!
17:40:11  see, lookup table
17:40:41  ais523: proposal: remove () from underlambda
17:40:42  ^ul (::**)(:*)(::*:**)(~(()(ten)(!^)(nine)(!^)(eight)(!^)(seven)(!^)(six)(!^)(five)(!^)(four)(!^)(three)(!^)(two)(!^)(one)(!^)(zero))~a*^(!!)~^^( )*S^:^):^
17:40:43  five two three  ...out of stack!
17:40:44  ' and * make it redundant
17:40:53  alise: () is still useful, though
17:41:02  ais523: ':'!*
17:41:05  (also, you need a as well to make it redundant)
17:41:18  Underlambda is somewhat golfed
17:41:24  and parens are useful for that
17:41:27  hmm
17:41:37  ais523: is there a non-()-using program that pushes () on the stack?
17:41:39  I don't think so, but...
17:41:46  cpressey: so the distinction is that when an interpreter provides direct access to it evaluation methods, one can write an interpreter for that interpreter that really just asks the parent interpreter to do interpretation?
17:41:50  (abcd) -> ':'!*'a*'b*'c*'d* :-D
17:41:54  quintopia: sort of
17:41:59  no, but only for the trivial reason that the first command in any Underload program has to be ()
17:42:09  or something containing ()
17:42:12  quintopia: it's like writing a scheme interpreter in scheme that just handles lambda and similar control structures, making them into real lambdas, and passes off the actual evaluation to APPLY
17:42:27  in Underload, there's a command to push () onto the stack, it's called 1
17:42:30  i.e. it does name lookup, basic control structures, and things like macros if it does them; but actual (f x y z) is handled by (apply f (list x y z))
17:42:43  it's a self-interpreter that uses the language's actual interpreter to do most of the work for it, basically
17:42:54  alise: that's a correct sort of interp, though, and often is used to interp one lang in another
17:42:56  yeah that's what i was trying to say
17:43:00   no, but only for the trivial reason that the first command in any Underload program has to be ()
17:43:00  erm
17:43:01  i mean
17:43:02  no "()"
17:43:06  not no "(" ")"
17:43:07  ah
17:43:12  not in Underload
17:43:16  i don't get it
17:43:30  in Underlambda, you can do ((x)!) or something like that
17:43:42  because it's only the semantics of a codeblock that matter, not its literal representation
17:43:49  cpressey: what don't you get?
17:44:17   because it's only the semantics of a codeblock that matter, not its literal representation
17:44:18  right
17:44:36  show me a self-interpreter that isn't meta-circular. to me, it's just a matter of degree (how direct is your circularity?)
17:44:53  cpressey: for instance, a Python-in-Python implementation that implements its own object system
17:44:57  Underlambda's S command outputs functions, and its D command inputs them
17:44:58  and does tree-based AST interpretation
17:45:06  ais523: '!a'!*
17:45:08  effective nop
17:45:08  it's interp-defined what format's used to output the functions
17:45:55  anyway, there are any number of subsets of Underlambda that are TC
17:45:59  or any interpreter for B written in A, where A and B are unrelated, which is then interpreted by a A interpreter written in B.
17:46:04  for a while, I even thought about embedding BF-minus-comments in it
17:46:17  that pretty much forces you not to ask the A interpreter for help
17:46:21  but < and > don't fit well with the execution model without requiring a really complex definition of + and -
17:46:44  err, the B interpreter for help
17:46:48  quintopia: I was thinking about that just now; for Scheme, the sticking point seems to be closures in the intermediate language
17:47:10  as in, a self-interp's considered to be a "true" self-interp if it goes via an intermediate representation that doesn't include closures
17:47:31  alise: in your example, the object system isn't directly meta-circular... but since it's still defined, indirectly, in terms of itself, i can't bring myself to call it "not" meta-circular
17:47:41  ais523: so Clojure is out of the question?  that seems silly, since Clojure can be compiled to java bytecodes...
17:47:57  cpressey: You know, there is a use for terms that are not precise slicings of the world in two.
17:48:09  In this case, "metacircular" is obviously not precise, but even Lojban has vague adjectives.
17:48:27  quintopia: it's a self-interp either way, but there's sort-of a distinction between "compile then execute", and "interpret without compiling"
17:48:40  the first is often considered cheating, especially if the compile step is very simple
17:48:52  alise: you seem to feel it's precise enough to yell *wrong* at me when I do a first pass explanation
17:48:53  on the other hand, it's not a straight distinction in that there's no cutoff, it's a continuum
17:49:14  cpressey: If I was yelling, I would have used uppercase. And it was more so that quintopia doesn't get confused.
17:49:17  what does "meta-circular" mean anyway?
17:49:24  I haven't been yelling about the definition because I have no idea what it is
17:49:26  ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
17:49:41  i *did* link that definition before, but ofc you didn't see it :)
17:49:47  ugh, clog's being slow
17:50:03  ais523: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
17:50:09  that filter causes you way more problems than it solves
17:50:11  got it before you posted that
17:50:17  alise: it's solved loads of problems for me
17:50:27  argh, I'm away for three minutes and I come back to several screenfuls
17:50:29  ais523: do you filter them to empty string or to [missing link] ?
17:50:31  anyway, bbl for quite a bit
17:50:32  the problems it causes are problematic, but not that bad
17:50:34  quintopia: to (link)
17:50:40  empty string would be rather confusing
17:50:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: I never meta-circ).
17:50:40  ah
17:50:45  yeah
17:51:02  what problems does it solve?
17:51:02  ais523: also relevant: http://goatse.cx/
17:51:10  quintopia: he doesn't like links
17:51:14 -!- alise has left (?).
17:51:16 -!- alise has joined.
17:51:16  people pestering me, mostly
17:51:17  whoops
17:51:20  alise: i apologize for spreading confusion.
17:51:27  cpressey: Sacrifice goats!
17:51:37  the vast majority of IRCers assume that if they post a link, everyone will read it
17:51:55  making myself unable to follow them at least gives me a plausible excuse
17:52:05  to say "no I haven't read it because I filter links, and I don't particularly care anyway"
17:52:06  aha! plausible deniability!
17:52:33  well then.
17:53:06  alise: hmm, the wikipedia article seems to consider meta-circular evaluators as not being self-interps
17:53:12  whereas I see them more as a special case
17:53:18  ais523: err, the wikipedia article doesn't say that
17:53:21  and you're obviously right
17:53:27  if i were to do the same i'd have my client go ahead and fetch the link up until it reaches a  tag, then filter the link to the title
17:53:33 <ais523> "The difference between self-interpreters and meta-circular interpreters is that the latter restate language features in terms of the features themselves, instead of actually implementing them. (Circular definitions, in other words; hence the name). They depend on their host environment to give the features meaning."
17:53:35 <ais523> oh, it's a direct quote
17:53:49 <quintopia> that way i can know what the link was to, while still being able to deny having received a link
17:53:50 <ais523> sorry, Wikipedia, it's actually Reginald Braithwaite who I disagree with
17:54:05 <ais523> hmm, ingenious
17:54:12 <ais523> but there are some sites I don't even want to send TCP requests too
17:54:14 <ais523> *to
17:54:23 <ais523> the firewall here is somewhat insane
17:54:33 <alise> someone's been lying to the pavement again
17:54:51 <alise> ais523: ah, what raganwald meant there is
17:54:57 <alise> "difference between them and REGULAR self-interps"
17:54:58 <alise> i'm pretty sure
17:55:02 <ais523> hmm, perhaps
17:55:05 <ais523> could just be lack of context
17:55:24 <alise> he's a smart guy, so
17:55:46 <ais523> now I want to write an Underload quine where every string is treated either entirely as data, or entirely as code
17:56:05 <ais523> as in, either S is never run on it, or ^ is never run on it
17:56:16 <quintopia> sounds fun
17:56:47 <ais523> it probably wouldn't fit into one line of IRC, though
17:57:45 <quintopia> ais523: do you have someone that goes through your web access logs seeing which domains you've accessed?
17:58:00 <ais523> quintopia: yes in theory
17:58:10 <quintopia> bastages
18:00:39 -!- aloril has joined.
18:01:25 <ais523> at least the firewall's stopped portscanning me
18:03:27 <ais523> (yes, all my ports are closed to anyone but 127.0.0.1. Why do you care? You're a NAT, it's not like anything would happen even if the ports were open, as I don't have a public IP...)
18:05:09 <quintopia> lamesauce
18:05:16 <alise> lambda x,y:x-1,y
18:05:20 <alise> apparently y is not defined
18:05:22 <alise> stupid scoping rules
18:05:45 <alise> ais523: INTRA-UNIVERSITY ILLEGAL FILESHARING OVER PORT 453
18:06:16 <ais523> alise: I hadn't even thought of communicating with other people on the same subnet
18:06:18 <ais523> if indeed there are any
18:06:43 <ais523> surely they could just firewall it at the router if they cared that much?
18:06:54 <ais523> (as in, insist all traffic went to a different subnet?)
18:07:21 <alise>  if k=='h':
18:07:21 <alise>   w[Y,X]=46;X-=1;w[Y,X]=64;D(0,0)
18:07:21 <alise>  elif k=='l':
18:07:21 <alise>   w[Y,X]=46;X+=1;w[Y,X]=64;D(0,0)
18:07:28 <alise> guess what it does!
18:07:45 <ais523> moving the character in a roguelike
18:07:58 <ais523> 64 is @, the characters are typical roguelike movement keys
18:08:11 <ais523> I don't know 46 off by heart, but suspect it's . based on context
18:08:16 <ais523> !c printf("%c",46);
18:08:25 <alise> i like how C is ais523's go-to calculator
18:08:34 <alise> ais523: it is, yes
18:08:36 <alise> guess what D does :P
18:08:40 <ais523> most langs don't convert between integers and characters transparently
18:08:55 <ais523> hmm, D is less obvious, especially as the params are always 0
18:08:59 <ais523> also, EgoBot isnt here
18:09:07 <quintopia> hackego?
18:09:16 <cpressey> D=update display?
18:09:21 <alise> cpressey: yes; what are the arguments?
18:09:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:09:39 <cpressey> offset into screen to start updating at, maybe?
18:09:45 <alise> nope
18:10:01 <cpressey> ok
18:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, is someone going to explain what Underlambda is?
18:10:42 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a language project by me
18:10:43 <alise> cpressey: here's D's definition:
18:10:45 <alise> def D(a,b):
18:10:45 <alise>  for B in range(b,b+23):
18:10:45 <alise>   for A in range(a,a+80):
18:10:45 <alise>     s.addch(B-b,A-a,w.get((B-12,A-40),46))
18:10:51 <ais523> based around an esolang, also with the same name
18:10:51 <alise> note: b/B is y, a/A is x
18:10:55 <alise> just renamed them to avoid clashes
18:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, where's the esolang kept, if anywhere?
18:11:22 <ais523> the idea is to build an esolang that's easy to compile into other langs, and easy to compile other langs into
18:11:23 <ais523> and my head
18:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So taking Brainfuck's niche as the standard language for proof by isomorphism?
18:13:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nah, most langs are hard to compile /into/ BF
18:13:22 <ais523> the idea is to make it work both ways
18:13:24 <quintopia> goddamit they set off the fire alarm again
18:13:33 <quintopia> motherfuckers
18:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, OK, so even better?
18:13:39 <ais523> to get, eventually, an automatic converter between any two esolangs
18:13:42 * quintopia waits
18:13:46 <ais523> hopelessly inefficient, ofc, but who cares
18:14:09 <alise> yay, my roguelike now moves around properly
18:14:13 <alise> now to do scrolling
18:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Practicality is so boring!
18:14:17 <alise> (it's on an infinite plane)
18:14:22 <alise> (also golfed)
18:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Make it non-Euclidean!
18:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> NEtHack!
18:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I would capitalise the 't', but is there such a thing as non-Euclidean topology?
18:15:13 <alise> interestingly, in this game, pressing a direction key for long enough will cause you to run out of memory
18:15:16 <ais523> hmm, does Python accept thin-spaces for indentation?
18:15:16 <alise> as the sparse array is filled
18:15:20 <alise> ais523: :-D
18:15:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: i think topology might be non-Euclidean by default.
18:15:41 <ais523> it would be great if you could mix all the different space-widths in Unicode
18:15:42 <cpressey> in that, Euclid never touched the stuff
18:15:46 <alise> ais523: do you want to see what i currently have?
18:15:53 <ais523> I'd rather imagine it
18:15:57 <ais523> I might take a look when I'm finished
18:16:03 <ais523> *when it's finished
18:16:06 <alise> ais523: it's 23 lines, FWIW
18:16:11 <ais523> hmm, I have a strange aversion to unreleased projects
18:16:17 <ais523> well, unfinished
18:16:24 <alise> it's finished as far as moving around goes ;)
18:16:25 <ais523> I tend to like to get things done first before an official release
18:16:28 <alise> well apart from scrolling
18:16:38 <ais523> yet, provide copies of the work-in-progress to anyone who asks
18:16:55 <ais523> (the only programs where people frequently have asked are jettyplay, and occasionally AceHack)
18:17:11 <alise> let's see...
18:17:11 <ais523> I tend to incorrectly assume that the rest of the world operates like that, for some reason
18:17:24 <alise> if we're more then, let's say, 15 characters out of the centre
18:17:28 <alise> then scroll one place
18:17:33 <ais523> btw, we were discussing mono earlier? I seem to remember that the mono program I ran, I downloaded the source from codeplex.com
18:17:34 <alise> so X,Y are the centre
18:17:36 <alise> x,y our position
18:17:47 <ais523> and both their web-links and svn links weren't working properly, so in the end I used a recursive wget
18:18:55 <alise>  if x<X-15:X-=1
18:18:56 <alise>  if x>X+15:X+=1
18:18:56 <alise>  if y<Y-15:Y-=1
18:18:56 <alise>  if y<Y+15:Y+=1
18:18:59 <alise> note to self: make that faster
18:19:03 <alise> erm
18:19:04 <alise> shorter
18:19:20 <alise> well that isn't working
18:19:21 <alise> hmph
18:19:40 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot are debating commercial breaks on television
18:19:55 <ais523> when I was in Canada (mostly receiving US TV channels), whenever a commercial break came on I changed channel
18:20:06 <ais523> and checked back a few minutes later to see if it was still there
18:20:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Was it?
18:20:16 <ais523> sometimes
18:20:20 <ais523> quite often, actually
18:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC the US channels all have short, frequent breaks.
18:20:30 <ais523> I mean, I do that in the UK too, except I rarely watch television there
18:20:33 <ais523> and tend to get stuck on the BBC
18:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And no BBC, so there's nowhere to run.
18:20:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's long, frequent breaks
18:21:31 <alise> ais523: hmm, more frequent than ours though I think
18:21:48 <alise> e.g. Star Trek, over here, tends to do the abrupt-fade-out-then-in-again that usually signals an advert break, even when there's no adverts
18:21:51 <ais523> yep, typical in the UK is one or two minutes every 10-30 minutes, randomized
18:23:17 <alise> it's random? really?
18:23:19 -!- augur has joined.
18:23:31 <alise> ais523: also, not on Sky it isn't!
18:23:31 <ais523> alise: when I actually cared, which wasn't for very long, I didn't notice an obvious pattern
18:23:35 <ais523> this was on ITV
18:23:42 <alise> more like 3 minutes every 15 minutes
18:23:43 <ais523> I could only get the terrestrial channels then
18:24:04 <ais523> some of the adbreaks were extremely short, like 20 seconds altogether, but those were rather rare
18:24:17 <alise> most likely just sponsors
18:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you actually bother with Sky?
18:24:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: uh, occasionally.
18:25:01 <alise>  if x<X-15:X-=1
18:25:01 <alise>  if x>X+15:X+=1
18:25:01 <alise>  if y<Y-15:Y-=1
18:25:01 <alise>  if y<Y+15:Y+=1
18:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Particularly in this age of torrents?
18:25:09 <alise> why doesn't this work...
18:25:20 <alise> somehow decreasing x increases Y!
18:25:22 <alise> what the fuck!
18:25:29 <alise> OH
18:25:30 <alise> wrong sign
18:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't get rid of numbers!
18:25:54 <Phantom_Hoover> A decrement must have an equivalent increment!
18:25:57 <alise> hmm, doesn't quite work with diagonals
18:26:10 * alise puts some random dust into the playfield to make it easier to see
18:26:27 <yorick> alise: it's overflowing!
18:27:13 <alise> oops, now it randomises every time :-D
18:27:21 <alise> and i leave a snail trail
18:27:29 <yorick> much better
18:29:01 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:29:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: have you not seen Forte?
18:29:44 <alise> ais523: I have done more than the Crawl developers could.
18:29:45 <ais523> every command in that which isn't a no-op or simple I/O permanently gets rid of a number from that program
18:29:53 <alise> (Made a larger-than-screen playfield that scrolls non-annoying.)
18:29:56 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
18:29:58 <alise> How?
18:29:59 <alise>  if x<X-15:X-=1
18:29:59 <alise>  if x>X+15:X+=1
18:29:59 <alise>  if y<Y-5:Y-=1
18:29:59 <alise>  if y>Y+5:Y+=1
18:30:02 <alise> That was not difficult!
18:30:16 <ais523> alise: NetHack scrolls like that too, but only if you're using an unusually small terminal
18:30:20 <ais523> (normally there's no need)
18:30:33 <alise> ais523: hmm, what values does it use instead of 15 and 5? I guess you're unlikely to know :P
18:30:45 <ais523> not offhand
18:30:47 <ais523> I'll check
18:30:51 <alise> thanks! :)
18:30:56 <alise> i think 15 and 5 may be a bit too low
18:31:08 <alise> although 5 has the nice property that it scales well from 15
18:31:15 <alise> (15/80)*24 = 4.5
18:31:21 <alise> (the last line is reserved for my babble)
18:31:25 <alise> wait
18:31:27 <alise> the terminal is 80x24
18:31:29 <alise> so it should be *23
18:31:49 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
18:31:51 <alise> hmm, so it should be 4
18:31:52 <alise> but whatever
18:33:05 <ais523> ugh, the code uses some sort of complex dead-reckoning for efficiency, which makes it hard to read
18:33:10 <ais523> seriously, NetHack, you micro-optimised /that/?
18:33:19 <alise> :D
18:35:05 <alise> ais523: do you know the simplest way to get curses to just bloomin' restore the terminal at the end?
18:35:47 <ais523> it moves the screen left and right by 20 at a time if it gets within 5 of the left or right screen edge; vertically, by half the screen height (not counting topl, botl) if it gets within 2 of the screen edge
18:36:00 <ais523> alise: endwin does that automatically, or should
18:36:08 <alise> aha
18:36:09 <alise> echo()
18:36:09 <alise> endwin()
18:36:09 <ais523> as long as your termcap's set up correctly
18:36:16 <alise> oh
18:36:18 <alise> you don't even need echo
18:36:19 <alise> thanks
18:36:46 <ais523> hmm, your code isn't identical to NetHack's code
18:36:53 <ais523> but pretty close
18:36:56 <alise> how surprising :P
18:36:59 <alise> ais523: do you know the values it uses?
18:37:05 <alise> i've done s/15/17/
18:37:06 <ais523> <ais523> it moves the screen left and right by 20 at a time if it gets within 5 of the left or right screen edge; vertically, by half the screen height (not counting topl, botl) if it gets within 2 of the screen edge
18:37:26 <alise> by 20 at a time?
18:37:26 <alise> urgh
18:37:33 <alise> 1 at a time is the only way to avoid disorientation
18:37:40 <ais523> also, edge cases are handled in the actual code, but not in that description
18:37:53 <ais523> alise: well, Crawl scrolls 1 at a time, if it gets more than 0 from the centre
18:38:52 <ais523> so you're doing it in a mix between the NetHack and Crawl styles, which are close to being opposites
18:39:18 <alise> ais523: mine's the style that doesn't give you a headache ;)
18:39:39 <ais523> strangely, I found that in Enigma, which has level-configurable scrolling, the least confusing tends to be scrolling an entire screen instantly whenever you move within a few pixels of the edge (keeping one line)
18:40:09 <alise> ais523: nethack's is especially awful if you end up holding down one of the keys at the edge
18:40:16 <alise> since your character bounces around
18:40:43 <ais523> alise: well, bear in mind that NetHack levels are only 80 characters wide
18:40:51 <alise> right
18:40:54 <alise> whereas mine is infinite
18:40:55 <ais523> you'd bounce at most three times before you reached the other end of the level, no matter how small your terminal
18:40:58 <alise> and procedurally generated, hopefully
18:41:14 <ais523> it's a roguelike
18:41:18 <alise> (the function to *draw the screen* will randomly assign stuff to unassigned cells in view, I think)
18:41:20 <ais523> they're all procedurally generated, pretty much
18:41:23 <alise> ais523: it's also a golfed roguelike :P
18:41:38 <Gregor> Wots all this then?
18:41:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you could make the Mandelbrot set into a roguelike?
18:41:54 <Gregor> ais523: ....... omg.
18:41:57 <Gregor> ais523: YES
18:41:58 <ais523> place stairs on bits more detailed than the current zoom level
18:42:00 <alise> ais523: wat xD
18:42:06 <ais523> going downstairs zooms in, upstairs zooms out
18:42:07 <alise> <ais523> place stairs on bits more detailed than the current zoom level ;; you mean every bit?
18:42:10 <alise> you can zoom in anywhere
18:42:17 <ais523> alise: I mean, where there's anything interesting
18:42:20 <ais523> rather than solid black or white
18:42:25 <alise> and i think if you use naturals instead of silly colours, you have detail everywhere but the centre
18:42:26 <ais523> that's rather more limited, to the "edge" of the set
18:42:28 <alise> very boring detail, but still
18:42:29 <Gregor> Just s/stairs/some magic/
18:42:34 <Gregor> That voodoo you do
18:42:52 <alise> ais523: Unfortunately, the Mandelbrot set is a bit slow to compute.
18:43:15 <ais523> I remember writing my own Mandelbrot program
18:43:22 <alise> heh, my program crashes with no message if you resize the terminal and do anything
18:43:29 <ais523> where you could zoom right in until you started hitting distortions due to floating point rounding
18:43:32 <alise> it just refuses to run with no message if your terminal is the wrong size
18:43:38 <alise> wait, no
18:43:40 <alise> too big works
18:43:41 <alise> too small doesn't
18:43:59 <ais523> the interesting thing is, the rounding errors created little sets of their own which looked like distorted Mandelbrot sets
18:44:06 <alise> ais523: AWESOME
18:44:09 <alise> were they fractal?
18:44:20 <ais523> yes, although not as detailed as the set itself
18:44:25 <ais523> eventually you ended up dividing by zero
18:45:06 <alise> aww
18:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> < pikhq> Microsoft Word: the worst program to design web pages in, and this *includes* Malbolge. ← you know how much I hated my school's computing course?
18:46:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
18:48:07 <ais523> I still maintain that MS Publisher is an /even worse/ program for designing web pages
18:49:04 <ais523> the markup is even less semantic than Word's (tables everywhere, even for simple text), the page is normally forced to a width different from that of your actual screen (Word doesn't do /that/), and it has a habit of randomly replacing text with images because it can't figure out how to render it as HTML
18:50:07 <alise> woot, cursor positioning works
18:50:41 <alise> 30 lines now
18:52:00 <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"?
18:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, language?
18:52:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I heard the name once or twice, but I have never seen it
18:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know.
18:52:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Python :/
18:52:17 <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer
18:52:20 <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
18:52:36 <Vorpal> alise, okay but what role is it intended to fill?
18:52:39 <Vorpal> that is all I'm asking
18:52:42 <alise> `addquote <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"?  <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know.  <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer  <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
18:52:42 <ais523> basically, you know when you open up a PDF in the GIMP or OpenOffice Draw or something like that?
18:52:51 <Vorpal> ais523, um, no?
18:52:59 <ais523> you get a bunch of maybe editable text, some images, all at exact locations on the page
18:53:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I opened pdf in inkscape, to edit some vector graphics
18:53:13 <ais523> inkscape will do fine as well
18:53:23 <Vorpal> hm okay
18:53:34 <ais523> now, you can open up printed documents like that, but it isn't too useful for actually understanding the document, agreed?
18:53:36 <alise> Vorpal: MS Publisher is a bunch of little Word documents arranged in absolutely-positioned boxes
18:53:39 <alise> with absolute sizes
18:53:44 <ais523> as in, you can copy-paste bits of text, but not much else
18:53:50 <ais523> MS Publisher is that in reverse
18:53:52 <HackEgo> 236|<Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"?  <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know.  <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer  <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
18:53:58 <ais523> as in, actually constructing printed documents via this method
18:55:02 <ais523> (fun fact: I actually had a useful printed document I made this way in Publisher ages ago, but it was too hard to transfer from one laptop to another, and almost impossible to edit in Linux; nothing reads .pub files, and the .ps files it outputs are absolute abominations)
18:55:07 <Vorpal> ais523, um what? Opening up pdfs can be useful I found it useful to open up that thing in there, the vector graphics had too thin lines, so when included in a latex document (as "Figure 1: Diagram from simulation showing current over time" or something like that) the lines were invisible.
18:55:11 <ais523> (so I recreated it in Excel, which was actually easier despite it being a text document)
18:55:11 <Vorpal> useful:
18:55:13 <Vorpal> I meant
18:55:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, that's an insane way to /create/ a PDF
18:55:47 <Vorpal> ais523, the simulation program could only print the result iirc, not save it as an image
18:55:48 <alise> ais523: i *think* your method of explaining has a few too many steps of brainpower required to interpret.
18:55:53 <alise> try using words of two syllables or less
18:56:09 <ais523> alise: were you forced to use Publisher at school?
18:56:11 <Vorpal> ais523, yes indeed insane way to create pdfs though
18:56:19 <ais523> I think I was, but can't remember, I suspect my brain has erased memories of it
18:56:24 <alise> ais523: yeah. i'm talking about for Vorpal though
18:57:07 <ais523> Vorpal: Adobe Reader always shows lines at least a pixel thick (maybe even at least 2 pixels), even if they're thinner
18:57:15 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, can't you edit the text directly in publisher?
18:57:17 <ais523> I know, because I made a PDF with zero-width lines by mistake
18:57:23 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, just as you can in an opened PDF
18:57:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, my old school used it *incessantly*.
18:57:37 <ais523> it looked fine in Reader, but broken in Sumatra
18:57:38 <alise> "My old school used Publisher incestuously!"
18:57:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I'm not sure what caused it. I was using evince to view it, and it had to be scaled to fit into the latex figure
18:57:54 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I couldn't see the lines, and that trick worked perfectly
18:58:02 <alise> i like how Vorpal's just gone on to ignoring ais523's lines and relaying his anecdote instead
18:58:12 <Vorpal> alise, no I didn't.
18:58:17 <Vorpal> alise, I did both at once
18:58:25 <Vorpal> alise, maybe you failed to keep up?
18:58:33 <ais523> alise: I'm semi-convinced that Vorpal permanently has his scrollbar a few lines from the bottom of the screen
18:58:39 <ais523> he seems to only say things said around 15-20 lines ago
18:58:40 <Vorpal> ais523, no
18:58:42 <alise> ais523: or his brain just works *that* slowly
18:58:52 <Vorpal> ais523, s/say/see/ ?
18:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal smells funny.
18:59:20 <ais523> s/say/reply to/
18:59:25 * Phantom_Hoover times response
18:59:27 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I did get a bit lagged when writing that long line about inkscape, and I didn't bother to read the rest until I finished that line
19:00:21 <quintopia> what annoys me is people that fill up the screen with related lines they could have combined in a single message
19:00:34 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think my theory's correct
19:00:36 <quintopia> i'd rather read a few long lines than a lot of short ones
19:00:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed
19:00:38 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, I've got half a mind to extend Quod Libet to handle video.
19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, it's a conversational format.
19:00:41 <ais523> assuming that there wasn't a response yet, but will be soon
19:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Get used to it.
19:01:01 <Vorpal> ais523, response to what?
19:01:06 <alise> <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed <-- *you* do it all the time
19:01:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover's message
19:01:14 <ais523> it probably hasn't scrolled onto your screen yet
19:01:17 <alise> :-D
19:01:22 <Vorpal> ais523, oh that, I ignored it
19:01:22 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: well, i don't complain about it do I?  I just sit silently and be annoyed.
19:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> He sits in range at the short line lengths!
19:01:37 <quintopia> I'm making this one exception to make my peeve known and shall not mention it again
19:01:42 <alise> ais523: hmm, my roguelike actually uses the characters to determine what objects are
19:01:44 <alise> how robust!
19:01:47 <ais523> alise: I can't sensibly claim victory in this argument because my own argument was self-contradictory
19:01:49 <ais523> but it's still hilarious
19:01:49 <pikhq> Or at the very least write a video player that actually uses MKV metadata.
19:01:51 <alise> quintopia: people don't think of things all at once
19:01:55 <alise> also, it speeds up conversation
19:01:56 <Vorpal> alise, ooh, are you coding one?
19:01:58 <Vorpal> nice
19:02:04 <alise> Vorpal: yes, it's golfed
19:02:08 <alise> and insane
19:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, MY GOD, WHY AREN'T YOU EXACTLY FOLLOWING THE CONVERSATION
19:02:16 <alise> and played on an infinite plane filled with silly enemies and silly gold
19:02:18 <Vorpal> alise, cool, how extensive?
19:02:20 <Vorpal> ah
19:02:22 <alise> Vorpal: Umm... infinite
19:02:23 <alise> :P
19:02:30 <quintopia> alise: speeding up conversation is exactly the part about it that annoys me.  People should just be smart enough to have large gestalts
19:02:35 <alise> 32 lines atm
19:02:37 <Vorpal> alise, can you use the money for anything? Like shops?
19:02:41 <alise> quintopia: dude, this is IRC
19:02:46 <Vorpal> or would that take too much space?
19:02:54 <alise> Vorpal: maybe.
19:02:57 <alise> it would be pretty boring if not
19:03:05 <alise> i'm not aiming for any absolute limit, just trimming down code wherever possible
19:03:07 <Vorpal> alise, and hm, is there any specific goal or does it just go on until you die?
19:03:08 <ais523> quintopia: what does "gestalt" mean in that context?
19:03:28 <Vorpal> alise, if the latter, the term "arcade rougelike" comes to my mind
19:03:33 <Vorpal> which seems rather silly
19:03:33 <alise> Vorpal: probably the latter
19:03:37 <alise> a victory condition would be too hard
19:03:39 <quintopia> ais523: the series of connective ideas from one thought to another
19:03:43 <alise> and require non-randomness of some sort
19:03:45 <Vorpal> alise, an arcadelike rougelike perhaps!
19:03:53 <alise> Vorpal: maybe after you get enough gold, you can go to a special boss level
19:03:59 <Vorpal> hm
19:04:43 <Vorpal> alise, not just teleporting straight away IMO. Would be better to spawn a teleporter or some stairs or something next to the player
19:04:51 * alise makes a ? tile which actually *is* undetermined right up until you hit it
19:04:54 <alise> the quantum tile
19:04:58 <Vorpal> hah
19:05:00 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, there'd be like booths every now and then
19:05:03 <alise> with a quite low probability
19:05:05 <alise> that you'd have to go to
19:05:17 <alise> Vorpal: you know payphone booths?
19:05:24 <Vorpal> yes
19:05:28 <Vorpal> rather rare these days
19:05:30 <quintopia> they still have those
19:05:33 <alise> Vorpal: it's a pay-TARDIS
19:05:34 <quintopia> i've seen them
19:05:37 <alise> they're common over here
19:05:45 <alise> Vorpal: yes: the portal to the boss is a pay-TARDIS
19:05:48 <alise> I can think of no better solution
19:05:49 <Vorpal> I haven't seen one for... 5 years or such?
19:05:54 <Vorpal> alise, hm
19:06:03 <alise> open booth, bigger on the inside, insert coins :P
19:06:13 <alise> also has phone and internet
19:06:20 <Vorpal> alise, any leveling system?
19:06:31 <alise> Vorpal: maybe.
19:06:42 <alise> How to weight probability: in your random selection, have more copies of one tile!
19:06:48 <Vorpal> alise, I feel it wouldn't be much of a rougelike without leveling and equipments and such
19:07:03 <alise> T='          $$$$$%%%!'
19:07:17 <alise> yay, it crashes
19:07:18 <Vorpal> alise, that is a reasonable way to do it yes
19:07:22 <alise> endwin() unfortunately erases the error message :P
19:07:34 <Vorpal> as long as you don't have something with like 1/1000th of the probability of the another thing
19:07:48 <alise> Vorpal: thankfully, i am far too lazy to have that
19:07:58 <alise> also, nobody would find it, the gameworld is too boring to explore _that_ long
19:08:09 <Vorpal> true
19:08:16 <Vorpal> you still need those booth to be uncommon
19:08:41 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, in my test version i have some code i didn't change when the floor tile became space, not ., and it leaves a trail of .s behind you when you walk
19:08:43 <Vorpal> alise, as for crashing, hm... it managed to run endwin() after it crashed?
19:08:44 <alise> i think i might make that an item
19:09:00 <Vorpal> alise, oh like "red yarn" or something?
19:09:01 <alise> World's Largest Ball of Twine
19:09:03 <alise> i was thinking
19:09:09 <Vorpal> heh
19:09:36 <Vorpal> alise, a bit annoying if you don't move in a mostly straight or curving line
19:09:46 <alise> Vorpal: not really, it just helps you find where you went
19:09:52 <Vorpal> ah
19:09:54 <alise> which is useful if you're looking for that booth you saw seven screens ago
19:10:10 <Vorpal> alise, not if you criss crossed your path a lot before maybe hm
19:10:25 <alise> well, can't have everything.
19:10:35 <Vorpal> alise, you plan to use fixed screens? Not centering on the player all the time?
19:11:05 <alise> Vorpal:
19:11:05 <alise>  if x<X-17:X-=1
19:11:06 <alise>  if x>X+17:X+=1
19:11:06 <alise>  if y<Y-5:Y-=1
19:11:06 <alise>  if y>Y+5:Y+=1
19:11:13 <alise> you can move around your centre area, but then it scrolls outside it
19:11:14 <Vorpal> ah, jumping "window"
19:11:23 <alise> so it scrolls around just fine, but doesn't give you a headache (I'm looking at you, Crawl)
19:11:23 <Vorpal> works I guess
19:11:29 <Vorpal> hah
19:11:45 <Vorpal> alise, I find "always-centered-on-player" isn't too bad
19:11:53 <alise> i do, so nyah
19:11:58 <Vorpal> mhm
19:11:59 <alise> remove the +n and -n if you want that :P
19:12:09 <Vorpal> alise, as long as you can see what you are moving to wards
19:12:16 <Vorpal> towards*
19:12:29 <alise> yes
19:12:34 <alise> the whole field is visible at all times
19:12:40 <Vorpal> alise, which language?
19:12:48 <alise> because, unlike NetHack, there is light, and you are not hideously short-sighted
19:12:50 <alise> Vorpal: python. meh.
19:12:56 <Vorpal> ah
19:13:11 <Vorpal> alise, that explains those "not very golf-y newlines" at least
19:13:32 <alise> len(';') == len('\n')
19:13:44 <alise> the indentation has an effect, but i can't avoid that
19:13:50 <alise> (at the start)
19:13:51 <Vorpal> yeah
19:13:52 <alise> because it's an if
19:13:54 <alise> so a block structure
19:13:58 <alise> so i can't just do ; and more of them
19:14:05 <alise> first line of that function:
19:14:07 <alise>  global x,y,X,Y;w[y,x]=46;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64
19:14:12 <Vorpal> alise, um you can, but not sure it helps that much. Remember that irc bot in python with just lambda?
19:14:22 <Vorpal> might take more space
19:14:24 <Vorpal> not sure
19:15:13 <Vorpal> alise,  w[y,x]=46 ?
19:15:20 <alise> Vorpal: the .
19:15:25 <alise> to move away from there
19:15:25 <Vorpal> ah
19:15:26 <alise> w is the grid
19:15:30 <alise> (world)
19:15:40 <alise> T='          $$$$$%%%!' ;; I can't actually use this, it has to be charcodes, so:
19:15:41 <alise> T=[32]*10+[36]*5+[37]*3+[33]
19:15:42 <alise> >:D
19:15:57 <Vorpal> "wut"
19:16:01 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
19:16:01 <alise> 633 vagrant.py
19:16:02 <alise> hell yeah
19:16:11 <alise> Vorpal: [x]*n = [x,x,x,x...] n of them
19:16:15 <Vorpal> aha
19:16:18 <alise> [...]+[...] = [...,...]
19:16:30 <Vorpal> what is !
19:17:06 <Vorpal> alise, also I assume the player is @ in the best of traditions? What about giving it a completely useless pet. Wait I'm detecting feature creep.
19:17:17 <alise> yeah no :P
19:17:29 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, those weightings are a little off.
19:17:37 <alise> BEHOLD:
19:17:45 <alise> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/JTySy.png
19:17:47 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, nethack pets... just die a lot. When playing val I find it just gets in the way.
19:17:53 <Vorpal> for wiz it makes sense but...
19:17:57 <alise> they are very useful in sokoban.
19:18:04 <alise> at the end
19:18:08 <alise> (note: i have done that exactly once)
19:18:10 <alise> i had like four pets
19:18:13 <alise> all gained in sokoban
19:18:16 <Vorpal> alise, for curse testing?
19:18:18 <alise> Vorpal: no
19:18:20 <alise> the room at the end
19:18:25 <Vorpal> alise, yes?
19:18:25 <alise> i just let my four pets fight them all
19:18:27 <alise> didn't get a scratch
19:18:30 <alise> Vorpal: no, the monsters inside
19:18:32 <Vorpal> aren't the monsters all asleep
19:18:34 <Vorpal> inside
19:18:41 <Vorpal> or didn't you have stealth?
19:18:45 <alise> i didn't.
19:18:48 <Vorpal> ah
19:18:53 <alise> it's the harder version of the level, btw
19:19:06 <alise> "oReflection one
19:19:21 <alise> Vorpal: but a monster got spawned on the Elbereth
19:19:23 <Vorpal> alise, pets near the end of game can be useful. I mean, tame archeon? Or tame ki-rin (probably only reasonable for knights)
19:19:27 <alise> and a werecreature stole it, I think
19:19:31 <alise> it certainly wasn't there
19:19:50 <Vorpal> hm
19:19:57 <alise> lol even changing the space weighting to 100 doesn't work
19:20:05 <alise> 1000 is better
19:20:23 <Vorpal> alise, lucky you didn't do the expanded array thing then
19:20:36 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36]*5+[37]*3+[33]
19:20:37 <alise> >:)
19:20:56 <alise> len(T) = 1009
19:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a way in Coq of bundling theorems together given some axioms?
19:21:07 <Vorpal> what did you say that the ! was?
19:21:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
19:21:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: modules, "Parameter"
19:21:22 <alise> or was it sections? I forget
19:21:24 <alise> Vorpal: I didn't -- potion.
19:21:27 <Vorpal> ah
19:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you have some object Group which gives lots of goodies when passed the group, composition and axioms.
19:21:36 <alise> just HP potion :P
19:21:39 <Vorpal> alise, and $ is gold I presume... % is food?
19:21:44 <alise> yes
19:21:58 <alise> the hp potion will most likely just incr an internal hp potion counter by something random
19:22:05 <Vorpal> alise, what weapons will be available?
19:22:13 <alise> and then quaffing a potion will heal min(sum, 15) or whatever
19:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sections would seem to do it, but I don't know how they actually work.
19:22:20 <alise> Vorpal: your fists
19:22:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see manual ;)
19:22:25 <Vorpal> alise, no sword?
19:22:46 <alise> Vorpal: you could also think of it as a sword
19:22:51 <Vorpal> not really a rougelike without the equipment system
19:22:59 * Phantom_Hoover is starting to lose track of the BBC pop scientists
19:23:00 <Vorpal> that and levels
19:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I'm not exactly an avid follower.
19:23:22 <alise> Vorpal: dude, it's close enough!
19:25:24 <alise> Vorpal: i don't even have walls
19:25:28 <alise> although i might add them.
19:26:27 <Vorpal> hm
19:26:40 <Vorpal> alise, need them for boss and booth at least
19:26:46 <Vorpal> walls that is
19:26:55 <alise> the booth will actually just be a single character.
19:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, yes but larger on the inside you said?
19:27:09 <alise> that's a TARDIS joke.
19:27:12 <Vorpal> yes
19:27:17 <alise> the effect of it being a pay-teleport will be conveyed entirely through one line of message :P
19:27:20 <Vorpal> but I thought that you would show it on screen
19:27:21 <Vorpal> oh well
19:27:25 <alise> yes, it will
19:27:35 <Vorpal> alise, randomly placing walls would be silly, because sooner or later you would then run into a barrier you couldn't pass.
19:27:47 <alise> "You insert your gold into the slot. ... The door opens! --More--"
19:27:56 <alise> "Wow -- it's bigger on the inside! You see a big, shiny button. --More--"
19:27:57 <Vorpal> given perfect randomness and so on
19:28:02 <alise> "You press the button... --More--"
19:28:12 <alise> "Suddenly, you find yourself in a barren desert, with this evil guy."
19:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's still Euclidean. I disapprove.
19:28:24 <alise> Vorpal: so go in another direction :P
19:28:45 <alise> Vorpal: also, "technically", you could end up surrounded entirely by monsters
19:28:47 <Vorpal> alise, well sooner or later you will run into a wall that surrounds you
19:28:51 <alise> or there could never be a booth generated, ever
19:28:54 <alise> Vorpal: no, you won't
19:28:58 <alise> that's not even *close* to remotely probable
19:29:05 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can embed the hyperbolic plain into a terminal sensibly-ish.
19:29:05 <Vorpal> not probably at all indeed
19:29:17 <Vorpal> but sooner or later it will happen, given an infinite plane
19:29:23 <Vorpal> unless I'm completely wrong
19:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it would take ages, I assume.
19:29:45 <Vorpal> and perfect randomness of course
19:29:46 <alise> the probability approaches 1.
19:29:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes it would
19:29:56 <alise> however, you do not have time to play that long
19:30:02 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
19:30:02 <alise> given, say, the predicted age of the universe.
19:30:11 <Vorpal> I never claimed it was likely
19:30:23 <Vorpal> alise, getting surrounded by walls at the start is more probable
19:30:35 <Vorpal> I mean, that is just 8 tiles
19:30:38 <Vorpal> still not likely
19:30:42 <Vorpal> but *more* likely
19:30:42 <alise> that's still hideously improbable :P
19:30:45 <alise> considering the low probability of walls
19:30:49 <Vorpal> than running into it at some distance
19:31:04 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, getting two wall segments next to each other would be low
19:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, approximate wall probability?
19:31:10 <Vorpal> unless you try to deal with that
19:31:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "small"
19:31:27 <Vorpal> alise, oh also: with walls you need LOS calculations
19:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OOM?
19:31:33 <alise> i will likely generate them separately or not at all
19:31:36 <alise> Vorpal: er? why?
19:31:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
19:31:48 <Vorpal> alise, glass walls?
19:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Order of magnitude?
19:31:59 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36]*5+[37]*3+[35]*3+[33]
19:32:03 <alise> except more likely than that, probably
19:32:10 <alise> Vorpal: yes.
19:32:14 <alise> Vorpal: or you have x-ray vision
19:32:15 <alise> pick one
19:32:24 <Vorpal> hah
19:33:03 <Vorpal> alise, I prefer the dungeon to be filled with strange cubes made of breakproof glass :P
19:35:00 <cpressey> "Note that if the attribute is found through the normal mechanism, __getattr__() is not called." <-- I love how this leaves what "the normal mechanism" is, up to the imagination.
19:35:26 * cpressey pulls a normal mechanism out of his pocket
19:35:32 * alise decides to have a dividing line before the status line
19:35:34 <alise> otherwise it's too confusing
19:36:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, I detect python naming there
19:36:30 <Vorpal> it looks ugly
19:36:38 <Vorpal> __slots__, __init__ and so on
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19:37:40 <alise> hi coppro
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19:39:17 <Gregor> HI POOPPY
19:41:59 <cpressey> Vorpal: what else would I be carping about?
19:42:13 <alise> Vorpal: does banging into a wall in nethack affect the turns?
19:42:15 <alise> it doesn't, does it
19:42:58 <Vorpal> alise, err?
19:43:03 <alise> i mean
19:43:05 <alise> @#
19:43:05 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ v
19:43:05 <alise> l
19:43:08 <Vorpal> alise, you mean, if you advance a turn if you try to walk into a wall?
19:43:10 <alise> right
19:43:12 <ais523> alise: it erodes engravings, but has no other effect
19:43:16 <ais523> the erosion on engravings is probably a bug
19:43:20 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think I ever tried XD
19:43:24 <Vorpal> ais523, heh
19:43:29 <ais523> but is exploited to great effect by people reverse-engineering the RNG
19:43:40 <ais523> as it advances the RNG seed
19:44:55 <Vorpal> listened to an interview on radio with a professor in discrete math. Quite unusual.
19:45:50 <Vorpal> ais523, err, how could you know the seed
19:46:02 <ais523> Vorpal: well, it's seeded with the current date and time, right?
19:46:08 <Vorpal> hm
19:46:09 <alise> Vorpal: I have no message line, woo
19:46:17 <ais523> besides, seeds follow a pattern, set off enough random events and you can figure out where in the pattern you are
19:46:27 <Vorpal> hm
19:46:33 <ais523> someone made a bunch of rainbow tables, they had to change the RNG to reseed from /dev/random in order to block that on NAO
19:46:41 <Vorpal> ais523, is it time() or gettimeofday() ?
19:46:49 <Vorpal> I mean, the former you couldn't probably manage to figure out
19:47:02 <Vorpal> the latter has way too high res for you to figure out when it ran without a debugger
19:47:14 <ais523> Vorpal: the former, and you can get it within a few seconds pretty easily
19:47:28 <Vorpal> indeed
19:47:31 <ais523> and within a second allowing for network lag and clock skew, which you can manage by seeing what happened with your failed attempts
19:48:05 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway how easy would it be to figure out the seed if it started off from /dev/random? I mean, you could probably still figure it out with a table
19:48:12 <Vorpal> looking up start sequences
19:48:14 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, it was rainbow-tabled
19:48:29 <Vorpal> oh *re*seed
19:48:32 <ais523> so on NAO, it reseeds from /dev/random every now and then, paxed's keeping the exact interval secret
19:48:32 <Vorpal> I missed the "re"
19:48:49 <ais523> on /dev/null, it uses a cryptographically secure RNG seeded from /dev/random
19:48:54 <Vorpal> hah
19:49:14 <ais523> there's even a bunch of tables for doing AES quickly
19:49:27 <Vorpal> hm?
19:49:44 <Vorpal> ais523, /dev/random is a bit iffy though, compared to /dev/urandom. It would get stuck quickly quite easily if many people start games at the same time
19:49:55 <cpressey> rainbow tables!  man, i love that game
19:49:59 <ais523> agreed, probably /dev/urandom
19:50:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, what?
19:50:09 <ais523> apparently using /dev/urandom directly was too slow
19:50:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: you know.  rainbow tables!
19:50:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, I know what they are. But "game"?
19:50:31 <ais523> Vorpal: NetHack?
19:50:35 <cpressey> yes!  the best!
19:50:37 <Vorpal> ah
19:50:43 <cpressey> better than musical chairs even!
19:50:46 <Vorpal> I thought cpressey meant a game called "rainbow tables"
19:50:51 <Vorpal> that just confused me
19:50:57 <alise> Okayyy, my M function is fucked up.
19:51:06 <Vorpal> alise, what does M do?
19:51:11 <alise> moves
19:51:13 <alise> and updates everything :P
19:51:15 <Vorpal> ah
19:58:07 <alise> def Q(x):s.move(23,0);s.insertln();s.addstr(23,0,x);s.getkey()
19:58:12 <pikhq> alise: Why does everything suck?
19:58:17 <alise> pikhq: Because.
19:59:09 <cpressey> class object: def __suck__(self): return True
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20:04:05 <alise> ais523: L+=int(not randint(0,3)and randint(5,10))
20:04:07 <alise> MWAHAHAHA
20:04:19 <ais523> is that a bitwise and?
20:04:27 <ais523> (and likewise not)
20:04:28 <alise> ais523: nope
20:04:33 <ais523> C logical?
20:04:37 <alise> yep
20:04:43 <ais523> oh, Python logical
20:04:48 <alise> er, right
20:04:52 <ais523> as in, it returns the right argument only if the left is 0
20:04:57 <alise> *False
20:05:00 <alise> or 0
20:05:02 <alise> or []
20:05:02 <alise> or ''
20:05:03 <alise> etc.
20:05:03 <alise> and int(True)=1, int(False)=0
20:05:05 <ais523> in that case I don't get the not
20:05:13 <alise> ais523: i'll elaborate on the logic:
20:05:21 <alise> "1/3 chance: increase HP by random in range 5 to 10"
20:06:11 <ais523> oh, and most of the time nothing happens
20:06:16 <ais523> is that 1/3 or 1/4?
20:07:11 <alise> er, 1/4
20:07:13 <alise> but it should be 13
20:07:14 <alise> *1/3
20:09:19 <alise> ais523: "H:-46"
20:09:21 <alise> that's some hunger
20:11:04 <alise> WTFFF
20:11:10 <alise> ais523: hunger increases properly unless i hold down for a while
20:11:19 <alise> in which case it stops increasing, then goes to something random when i move in a different direction
20:11:20 <alise> WHAT
20:11:25 <ais523> buffer overflow?
20:11:29 <alise> nope
20:12:47 <alise> Vorpal: want to see the WIP version?
20:12:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: everyone: you too
20:13:36 <alise> ais523: HOW could hunger possibly go down like that?!
20:14:00 <ais523> I take it you're not mixing longjmp and autos, either
20:14:14 <ais523> in which case, the random number is probably significant, you should figure out what it's referring to
20:14:16 <alise> ais523: in Python?
20:14:21 <alise> also, it's not random
20:14:23 <alise> it actually decreases
20:14:24 <alise> somehow
20:14:36 <ais523> have you used the wrong variable name somewhere?
20:14:39 <alise> now it's mysteriously gained another digit
20:14:40 <alise> ais523: nope
20:14:47 <alise>  s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s H:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,H,L,P));s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
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20:14:56 <alise> G is Gold
20:15:01 <alise> N is turNs
20:15:03 <alise> H is Hunger
20:15:05 <alise> L is Life
20:15:07 <alise> P is Potion
20:15:47 <alise> and no, there is nowhere else I change these values...
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20:16:03 <alise> hmm
20:16:08 <alise> that 8xx thing behaves like 1xx
20:16:14 <alise> because 900 made me die
20:16:15 <alise> how strange
20:16:47 <pikhq> That's really annoying. Really really annoying. All the rips of Monty Python's Flying Circus out there are from the NTSC DVDs.
20:18:00 * alise decides to make hunger actually be satiation
20:18:30 <pikhq> WHY WOULD I WANT NTSC VERSIONS OF A PAL BROADCAST?
20:20:10 <alise> ais523: I swear, this is *utterly* inscrutable to me.
20:20:15 <alise> pikhq: Wanna debug my golfed Roguelike?!?!?!?!?!
20:20:23 <pikhq> Just... GOD.
20:22:24 <pikhq> But, I can find from-PAL rips of the *movies*.
20:22:34 <pikhq> Y'know, the ones that are 24 fps.
20:22:35 <alise> pikhq: DEBG
20:22:56 <pikhq> (and that I could de-telecine from the NTSC source)
20:24:00 <pikhq> Why do I have to be pickier than everyone who does encodes for torrents?
20:24:02 <alise> I swear, it's like key repeat does nothing to this.
20:25:07 <pikhq> I may have to purchase the series from amazon.co.uk just to not be irritated.
20:25:38 <cpressey> farnsmetchl
20:26:07 <ais523> wait... you torrent TV programs, but buy them if the torrents are in the wrong format?
20:26:29 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out a code of laziness/ethics/piracy that would cause that to be your typicla behaviour
20:26:31 <ais523> *typical
20:27:05 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, I torrent them, but then get irritated at the low quality of the torrents, and I am now being irritated.
20:27:06 <alise> ais523: "Piracy is not wrong, and I am a perfectionist."
20:27:15 <pikhq> Also, what alise said.
20:27:15 <alise> This is ... pretty much also my position.
20:27:24 <ais523> hmm, perhaps
20:27:47 <pikhq> Well, in *this* case, I made the DVD rips from roommate's box set, and am now being irritated that it wasn't in PAL.
20:28:58 <pikhq> Also: seriously, if I had the hard drive space to make it practical, I'd just be storing remuxes of the DVD.
20:30:05 <pikhq> As it is, 1.2 Mbps h264 & source audio works.
20:32:01 <alise> pikhq: Please figure out why Python is ignoring physics.
20:32:14 <cpressey> pikhq: btw, how do you pronounce your nick?  because i tried last night and what came out sounded really awful.
20:32:54 <pikhq> cpressey: Peek aitch kyuu
20:32:54 <ais523> I mentally pronounce it as in pik HQ
20:32:55 <cpressey> in case you care, i found your hs bf compiler i had saved to my flash drive, and i said to myself, "oh yeah that's pikhq's"
20:33:03 <olsner> I usually just stop reading after "pik"
20:33:06 <pikhq> alise: Eff you
20:33:40 <olsner> alise: probably because guido doesn't understand it?
20:33:43 <cpressey> pikhq: oh!  is it... supposed to sound similar to "Pikachu"?  i'm surprised i never noticed
20:33:51 <pikhq> cpressey: Yes.
20:34:01 <pikhq> cpressey: I was 8 and fond of Pokémon.
20:34:17 <alise> I pronounce it "pikhq"
20:34:22 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: want to see the WIP version? <-- sure
20:34:24 <alise> Let me tell you, pronouncing "khq" is a BITCH.
20:34:35 <pikhq> alise: I demand some IPA.
20:35:02 <alise> "pi" as the start of pikachu; ktch-kyu but don't pronounce the u
20:35:18 <olsner> Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Internal data flow error. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Internal data flow error.
20:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: As soon as I get quaffing working :P
20:35:26 <alise> Vorpal: No max HP hooray
20:35:29 <alise> I should add that
20:36:29 <olsner> grr, music players on linux worked much better before gstreamer
20:36:36 <pikhq> I also need to go through my anime collection and get rid of all the hardsub'd stuff.
20:36:47 <pikhq> Hardsubs anger me.
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20:42:33 <alise> WHY DOES THIS NOT FURK
20:43:25 <ais523> alise: pastebin it somewhere, I'm interested now
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20:44:00 <alise> def C(x):s.insstr(23,0,' '*80);s.addstr(23,0,x);s.redrawwin();s.refresh()
20:44:03 <alise> this inexplicably fixes everything
20:44:05 <alise> (the redraw lines)
20:44:24 <alise> ais523: http://pastie.org/1201439.txt?key=fo9d7wsmz1xh8b6gwnkbvg
20:44:26 <alise> to make it break
20:44:30 <alise> remove ";s.redrawwin();s.refresh()"
20:44:42 <alise> things that fail: get a ! (potion), q(uaff) it, doesn't show until next turn
20:44:43 <ais523> oh, I wasn't planning to run it
20:44:57 <alise> hold down j (only j works, I have no idea why), watch turn and satiation counters not change after a while
20:45:00 <alise> move in another direction
20:45:01 <alise> go WTF
20:45:07 <alise> ais523: it's perfectly innocuous...
20:45:19 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: No max HP hooray <-- heh
20:45:24 <alise> there is now
20:45:25 <alise> (300)
20:46:32 <Vorpal> ah
20:46:36 <Vorpal> alise, any leveling?
20:46:41 <alise> nope
20:46:47 <Vorpal> it isn't much of a rougelike without that :(
20:46:50 <alise> or monsters yet
20:46:56 <ais523> alise: does anything else on your botl update?
20:47:00 <alise> Vorpal: oh eff of, it's going to be like 150 lines *with* the boss
20:47:03 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's an issue with the cursor position
20:47:07 <alise> alise: $ when you get $
20:47:12 <Vorpal> alise, what do you call it?
20:47:14 <alise> HP obviously
20:47:17 <alise> Vorpal: vagrant
20:47:19 <alise> vagrant.py
20:47:30 <alise> *eff off
20:47:42 <Vorpal> alise, ah I need to make a Vagrant'ELM then (Extended Levels and Magic) ;)
20:48:15 <Vorpal> probably won't do it though, not enough motivation
20:49:13 <alise> brb
20:49:15 <Vorpal> it seems I more and more prefer thinking about programming than actually programming. Not just the theoretical parts, but also sometimes the implementation details
20:49:23 <alise> ais523: if you actually figure it out, do enlighten me :P
20:49:26 <Vorpal> if only someone invented a serialization interface for the brain
20:49:56 <ais523> so N and S don't change, but G does?
20:50:19 <Vorpal> I mean, I thought about brainfuck optimisation quite a bit recently, and thought of some interesting things, but meh, can't be bothered to code all the analysis needed for it.
20:50:30 <Vorpal> mostly ways to optimise unbalanced loops
20:50:53 <Vorpal> require quite a lot of graph operations to figure out invariants and such
20:52:51 <alise> ais523: N and S change, yes.
20:52:53 <alise> all of them change
20:52:57 <alise> at different times
20:53:02 <alise> N and S change in lockstep except when you eat
20:53:02 <ais523> I mean, when holding down k
20:53:04 <ais523> *j
20:53:07 <ais523> rather than in general
20:53:12 <alise> ais523: N and S change but not G unless you run into anything.
20:53:18 <alise> any $s, in particular
20:53:24 <alise> P would change if you run into a potion
20:53:26 <alise> but this happens on open space
20:53:28 <ais523> when holding down j and N and S become bugged, does G also change?
20:53:34 <ais523> when you hit a $ at random?
20:53:37 <alise> and somehow, *not redrawing* causes the variables to change state permanently(?!?!?!)
20:53:48 <alise> ais523: i'm not sure, it's never happened to me
20:53:50 <alise> you'd have to try
20:53:51 <alise> brb
20:53:53 <Vorpal> alise, argh not vimkeys
20:53:58 <Vorpal> numpad numpad!
20:54:01 <alise> Vorpal: no.
20:54:02 <alise> brb
20:54:04 <Vorpal> alise, :(
20:54:21 <ais523> Vorpal: I assumed you'd use vikeys for roguelikes...
20:54:27 <cpressey> numpad controls + laptop = argh
20:54:33 <alise> no, he is allergic to vikeys
20:54:35 <ais523> cpressey: that's why I learnt vikeys initially
20:54:38 <alise> and religiously insists on numpad
20:54:39 <alise> now really
20:54:39 <alise> brb
20:57:28 <cpressey> Python would be just that much less obnoxious if only it had 'isa' and 'has' and 'can'
21:00:34 <pikhq> alise: Imagine the storage space that could be had if we brought back 5¼" hard drives.
21:00:55 <pikhq> Y'know.
21:00:59 <pikhq> s/alise: //
21:01:21 <cpressey> pikhq: I touched one once!  It was already dead, alas.
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21:04:58 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_%28programming_language%29
21:08:05 <cpressey> I need a language where tokenization happens on case-change boundaries
21:09:04 <cpressey> SwapDivPrint
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21:09:12 <fizzie> I think there's a 40 MB 5.25" IDE HD in my closet. Imagine the storage space.
21:09:42 <pikhq> A modern 5¼" drive. Imagine what could be.
21:10:18 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, it's split to a 32 MB and 8 MB FAT partitions, because DOS ~3.2 didn't support such hugeness.
21:13:19 <ais523> alise: when you get back, I can't see what's causing the error, but am confused about scopes; why is there a "global" in M but not D?
21:14:32 <cpressey> wait, that should be: swapDIVprint
21:17:57 <cpressey> i should totally write a utility that just fills my terminal with randomly coloured solid squares.
21:18:02 <cpressey> i would actually find this useful
21:18:36 <cpressey> my poorman's version is ls -la with dir colourization active
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21:19:31 <cpressey> ohai
21:19:53 <cpressey> irssi threw "status access violation" or something
21:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Moral: don't mess with the status access.
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21:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, wait, it was you who did Burro, right?
21:24:21 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: The same!
21:24:27 <cpressey> I mean: yes.
21:25:13 <ais523> cpressey: why do you want a utility to do that?
21:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> To beat a dead horse some more, aren't groups and monads the same kind of thing?
21:25:16 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard...
21:25:57 <cpressey> ais523: To easily see when I've reached the top of the output of the last command I issued when I browse the scrollback.
21:26:04 <cpressey> I run ls -la before it.
21:26:06 <ais523> aha
21:26:23 <cpressey> Running 'rainbow vomit' or such would be much cooler, though.
21:27:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Same kind of thing?  Sure.
21:28:02 <cpressey> We have this thing, and this other thing, and they do stuff.
21:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. a group is a set G, a function . : G×G→G and the conditions of identity, inversion and associativity.
21:29:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: I assumed you'd use vikeys for roguelikes... <-- this is not the first time you told me that
21:29:46 <Vorpal> and I told you I do not
21:30:01 <Vorpal> ais523, it is like the 7th time over the past few years
21:30:48 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Python would be just that much less obnoxious if only it had 'isa' and 'has' and 'can' <--- like... "import foo" → "can has foo"?
21:30:51 <Vorpal> ;P
21:31:02 <Phantom_Hoover> A monad is a functor m, functions unit and join and the monad laws.
21:31:24 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: A group is a tool for studying symmetry mathematically.
21:31:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Your turn.
21:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Touché...
21:33:11 <alise> tofu
21:33:25 <alise> ais523: you only need global to assign
21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I think the category-theoretical definition of monads involves wrapping around data.
21:33:27 <alise> thank guido
21:33:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really.
21:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, VERY SLIGHTLY
21:33:56 <ais523> alise: are you sure? does it not form a closure without?
21:34:15 <alise> ais523: not if you do +=
21:34:15 <cpressey> Vorpal: not exactly what I had in mind
21:34:18 <alise> works if you do =, just forms a closure
21:34:21 <alise> but if you do += it fails
21:34:27 <alise> because it expands to
21:34:28 <alise> x = x + ...
21:34:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, I suspected as much
21:34:30 <alise> and x isn't definef
21:34:31 <alise> *defined
21:34:33 <alise> because you're defining it
21:34:38 <alise> so it must be part of the new scope, not globals
21:34:39 <alise> so it errors
21:34:40 <alise> hooray
21:34:47 <cpressey> all hail the simplicity of unscopedness
21:34:51 <ais523> alise: I mean, if you use a variable inside a definition, don't you read the value it had when the definition was defined?
21:34:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, hovering I just couldnt resist joking about that horrible lolcode
21:35:05 <alise> ais523: let's put it this way
21:35:07 <alise> x=3
21:35:10 <alise> def f():return x
21:35:12 <alise> f() => 3
21:35:14 <alise> -------------------
21:35:15 <alise> x=3
21:35:18 <alise> def f():
21:35:21 <alise>  x=9
21:35:22 <alise>  return x
21:35:23 <alise> f() => 9
21:35:24 <alise> BUT
21:35:25 <alise> --------------
21:35:26 <alise> x = 3
21:35:26 <ais523> bleh
21:35:27 <alise> def f():
21:35:30 <ais523> what sort of scoping is that?
21:35:30 <alise>  x = x + 3
21:35:33 <alise>  return x
21:35:34 <alise> f() => ERROR
21:35:43 <alise> because it sees that x is defined somewhere, yet you use it before it's defined!
21:35:47 <alise> ais523: no, that scoping is okay
21:35:48 <alise> the first two
21:35:51 <alise> the second one doesn't modify the global
21:35:58 <alise> it creates a local
21:35:59 <alise> and now finally
21:36:00 <alise> x = 3
21:36:01 <ais523> the second one looks like some sort of scope-by-reference
21:36:03 <alise> no
21:36:05 <alise> fff
21:36:09 <alise> it doesn't mutate global x
21:36:13 <Vorpal> the third one is the real issue
21:36:14 <alise> i already said that
21:36:17 <alise> and finally
21:36:17 <ais523> oh
21:36:18 <alise> x = 3
21:36:19 <alise> def f()
21:36:21 <alise> def f():
21:36:22 <alise>  global x
21:36:25 <alise>  x = x + 3
21:36:26 <alise>  return x
21:36:28 <alise> f() => 6
21:36:29 <alise> x => 6
21:36:33 <ais523> I'm asking about x=3; def f(): return x; x=9; print f()
21:36:38 <ais523> which isn't a case you've suggested so far
21:36:43 <alise> ais523: 9
21:36:49 <ais523> that's what I was bletching at
21:37:03 <Vorpal> wait what
21:37:08 <Vorpal> that is wrong order?
21:37:15 <cpressey> all hail
21:37:28 <ais523> hmm, I suppose it's using lexical scoping there
21:37:32 <ais523> but explicit
21:37:40 <alise> ais523: huh?
21:37:43 <alise> you need to show f's grouping
21:37:48 <alise> x=3
21:37:50 <alise> def f():
21:37:51 <alise>  return x
21:37:51 <alise> x=9
21:37:57 <alise> print f() => prints 9
21:37:58 <ais523> that's what I meant
21:37:59 <alise> that is obvious
21:37:59 * Vorpal throws a hail storm at cpressey
21:38:02 <alise> that's what everything does
21:38:07 <Vorpal> hailstorm*
21:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't Haskell allow you to define monads that don't even obey the monad laws.
21:38:25 <Vorpal> English isn't even consistent about *which* words it writes as one
21:38:25 <ais523> so here, x in f() means "the current value of the variable x that exists in the scope where f was defined"
21:38:25 <cpressey> ais523: "lexical"
21:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
21:38:41 <ais523> I think that's lexical scoping
21:38:54 <alise> ais523: there, yes
21:38:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:39:12 <Vorpal> ais523, can you explain this in English: "hailstorm" but "car engine", why not "hail storm" or "carengine"
21:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> MADNESS
21:39:31 <ais523> Vorpal: historical accident
21:39:37 <ais523> although "hail storm" is also correct
21:39:50 <Vorpal> ais523, is there any pattern to when words are written together and when they aren't?
21:39:50 <cpressey> although "hail stone" might not be
21:39:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, see
21:40:05 <ais523> Vorpal: not that I know of
21:40:07 <Vorpal> even more confusing
21:40:19 <alise> Vorpal: Swedish isn't totally consistent either so shaddup
21:40:32 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more though, also any specific examples?
21:41:27 <Vorpal> ais523, and you imported the word "gravad lax" from Swedish (much like you did with smörgåsbord), except you turned it into "gravadlax" iirc. Since usually it is English who writes as separate words it doesn't make much sense XD. (Also it is completely logically that it should be two words in Swedish)
21:41:28 <alise> Vorpal: i don't know swedish, but i know for a fact it isn't totally consistent.
21:41:34 <Vorpal> (if anyone cares I could explain why)
21:41:42 <alise> i also know that if anyone used it as much as english, it would be just as inconsistent
21:42:00 <Vorpal> alise, correct, we have other issues, you have easy rules for when to use "a" and when to use "an", we have en/ett and no easy rules for when to use which
21:42:36 <alise> ais523: I simply have no idea how that code could possibly cause the number of turns to decrease, ever.
21:42:54 <Vorpal> alise, I was just looking for a pattern in this specific issue, I did not claim Swedish was consistent in general of course. Such a claim would be absurd. Where did you get that from?
21:43:24 <alise> nowhere
21:43:33 <alise> i'm just saying stop acting like it's strange that english is so abhorrently inconsistent
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21:43:52 <Vorpal> I did not. I was just wondering about a specific issue
21:44:04 <cpressey> a language doesn't travel halfway across the globe without picking up a few venereal diseases
21:44:06 <Vorpal> alise,, maybe you should try to base your attacks on something more substantial than thin air next time
21:44:07 <Vorpal> :)
21:44:25 <alise> Vorpal: you often complain about english.
21:44:29 <alise> it is really irritating and boring.
21:44:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, my interest in this was simply finding a better way to figure out than checking if aspell accepts the written together form
21:44:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: The pattern is this: English does compound words with spaces between the components. Things that don't do this are exceptions.
21:44:55 <Vorpal> alise, don't generalise. I didn't do it in this case.
21:45:04 <Vorpal> alise, so yeah your attack was based on thin air
21:45:13 <pikhq> And also: always-adding-spaces is also correct.
21:45:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm
21:45:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, like "hail stone"?
21:45:26 <alise> pikhq: Correct but inidiomatic.
21:45:31 <pikhq> Perfectly correct.
21:45:33 <alise> And with English, really, only idiomatic matters.
21:45:35 <Vorpal> hm
21:45:39 <alise> no
21:45:41 <alise> hail stone isn't
21:45:49 <alise> a hailstone isn't a type of stone
21:45:53 <alise> it's just a hailstone
21:45:57 <alise> whereas a hail storm is a storm of hail
21:46:01 <pikhq> alise: It doesn't get noticed at all as unidiomatic. And in fact I'd write it as "hail stone", likely.
21:46:03 <cpressey> well, i will certainly know what you mean if you say "a hail stone hit me in the forehead"
21:46:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about "arrow head" then?
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21:46:31 * alise adds monsters
21:46:41 <Vorpal> alise, nice, what sort of monsters?
21:46:41 <cpressey> germanic vs latinate steel cage match
21:46:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'd write that as "arrowhead".
21:46:44 <alise> Vorpal: evil ones
21:46:54 <Vorpal> cpressey, correction: "fore head" :P
21:46:56 <alise> Monsters that only start moving when you walk into their view: realistic!
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21:47:03 <pikhq> Don't think "arrow head" is wrong, though.
21:47:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, same, but would "arrow head" be correct?
21:47:09 <Vorpal> ah
21:47:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: "fore head" screams "wrong" though.
21:47:29 <cpressey> "arrow head" has amusing connotations to me.  like it's an unusual part of an arrow.
21:47:44 <pikhq> I'm parsing "fore" as a morpheme but not an individual word.
21:47:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, which shows that the "spaces is always correct" rule suddenly breaks down :P
21:47:56 <Vorpal> hm
21:48:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, you have fore and aft hm
21:48:12 <cpressey> star board
21:48:18 <alise> Hmm, what should monsters look like.
21:48:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: English orthography is hard, mmkay?
21:48:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, that should be "stearing side", iirc that is the history of the term
21:48:42 <alise> Q. Q is a good monster colour.
21:48:44 <Vorpal> comes from scandinavian langauges iirc
21:48:47 <Vorpal> old norse or such
21:49:08 <Vorpal> it's "styrbord" in Swedish, which is a lot closer to making sense in the modern form
21:49:24 <Vorpal> like starboard which changed so much that it doesn't make immediate sense any more
21:49:49 <cpressey> well, i hasten to point out that there is no "steering side" on a modern ship either
21:49:59 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Large_Hailstons_in_Leipzig_Jun06.jpg
21:50:02 <alise> Ouch.
21:50:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, "The origin of the term starboard comes from early boating practices. Before ships had rudders on their centerlines, they were steered by use of a specialized steering oar. This oar was held by an oarsman located in the stern (back) of the ship. However, like most of society, there were many more right-handed sailors than left-handed  sailors. This meant that the steering oar (which had been broadened to provide better control) used to
21:50:05 <Vorpal>  be affixed to the right side of the ship."
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21:50:22 <alise> I don't want to store health for every single monster... Hmm.
21:50:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, not on modern ones, but surely you have seen viking ships on TV and museums and such?
21:50:47 <Vorpal> or maybe not over there
21:50:48 <Vorpal> hm
21:50:50 <ais523> alise: make hitting the monster kill it outright with small probability, do nothing otherwise?
21:51:00 <ais523> so the more you pound on any given monster, the more likely it is to die in that time?
21:51:05 <alise> ais523: Stupid interpretation of US law ahoy: "if corporations are people, and slavery is the trade/exchange/purchase/sale of people, and the stock market is the trade/exchange/purchase/sale of corporations. Then in effect, the Stock Market is a slave Market."
21:51:16 <alise> Because the law literally says "CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE"
21:51:16 <ais523> I like that one
21:51:19 <alise> And this is why corporations get jobs!
21:51:21 <alise> ais523: no, he's *serious*
21:51:26 <alise> ("The Citizens United ruling either needs to be overturned or the Stock Market needs to be eliminated for violating the Constitution...")
21:51:49 <ais523> the difference is that the word "owning" has a different meaning wrt corporations, and wrt natural persons, to some extent
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21:52:01 <ais523> still, if you can control a person's actions via voting at them, isn't that slavery in some respects?
21:52:04 <cpressey> he did put it in terms of 'if then'
21:52:23 <ais523> you know, I think that argument might technically be legally correct with a literal meaning
21:52:29 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: no, he's *serious* <-- who?
21:52:33 <alise> Vorpal: reddit
21:52:35 <Vorpal> ah
21:52:43 <alise> ais523: yes, but no law says "corporations are people"
21:52:48 <alise> just "corporations have these rights, yada yada yada"
21:53:03 <ais523> I thought there was a law defining corporations as "persons"
21:53:05 <cpressey> the concept is "corporate personhood"
21:53:07 <ais523> (stupid legal plurals...)
21:53:10 <alise>   if not randint(0,14):
21:53:10 <alise>    Q('Euuch! That must have been poisoned...',1);L-=randint(15,20)
21:53:13 <alise> food is a bitch in this game
21:53:16 <cpressey> that corporations have all the same rights as people
21:53:26 <alise> cpressey: not all, IIRC
21:53:27 <alise> just many
21:53:40 <cpressey> alise: the concept.  not the reality
21:53:40 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/dn3b9/can_we_make_this_happen_redditor_suggests/c11fnbm
21:53:47 <alise> ^ from someone who actually knows it :P
21:53:56 <alise> "While I disagree violently with the ruling, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent in law and allows a destabilizing financial force to enter our political process, the OP's remarks above have no basis in law or reality and would certainly have no power to convince a jury to repeal this verdict."
21:54:34 <alise> ais523: a while back, I had a bit of crisis, in that I oppose corporate personhood but supported agoran partnerships
21:54:37 <alise> ais523: then I realised IT'S A GAME
21:54:54 <ais523> agoran partnerships are clearly a bad idea if you're trying to build a fair democracy
21:55:06 <ais523> good thing that that isn't the goal at Agora, or it would be a very boring game
21:55:40 <alise> right :)
21:56:49 <ais523> in fact, I think you can oppose corporate personhood and support agoran partnerships for the same reasons
21:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it possible to inject viral rules into Agora?
21:56:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and has been done before now
21:56:59 <ais523> but I doubt it would be all that interesting
21:57:05 <Phantom_Hoover> What did they do?
21:57:26 <ais523> one of them changed precedences at random, IIRC
21:57:32 <ais523> as in, it was a rule fragment that made the rule defer to other rules
21:58:12 <Vorpal> heh
21:58:20 <Vorpal> ais523, how would it spread?
21:58:40 <ais523> I think it wasn't a truly independent virus, but rather was spread by a separate rule
21:58:49 <Vorpal> hm
21:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there any fully permanent rules?
21:59:01 <Vorpal> ais523, how would a truly independent one work?
21:59:12 <ais523> it'd contain the code for replicating itself
21:59:17 <alise> pikhq: what is it with crazy Americans and not wanting to pay income tax?
21:59:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, as in any rule can in theory be changed via a 3:1 majority
21:59:26 <Vorpal> hm
21:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so that rule is therefore immutable.
21:59:51 <Vorpal> ais523, couldn't that be changed to require a 4:1 ?
21:59:55 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed
22:00:10 <ais523> you could change the rules to make them truly immutable, although such a change would be unlikely to pass
22:00:11 <alise> ais523: hmm, even the fountain?
22:00:30 <Vorpal> alise, hm?
22:00:31 <alise> oh, wait
22:00:34 <alise> just use a power=3 rule to kill it
22:00:36 <ais523> alise: the fountain can legally be changed at AI 3; most people would think it very bad form to change it at an AI less than 4, though
22:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> AI?
22:00:50 <ais523> and many people think it should only be changed via scam
22:00:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Agoran Intelligence?
22:01:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the higher the AI, the harder it is for a proposal to pass, but the more it can if it does pass
22:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And surely the voting rules are immutable?
22:01:05 <ais523> *more it can do
22:01:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:01:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and of course not, they change frequently in fact
22:01:19 <Vorpal> ais523, what does AI stand for?
22:01:26 <ais523> adoption index
22:01:29 <Vorpal> a
22:01:30 <Vorpal> ah*
22:01:38 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so can the 3:1 rule be disabled and then a permanent rule introduced?
22:01:42 <ais523> anyway, 3 is enough to change anything, but by convention some things need more (and people vote against otherwise)
22:01:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: of course
22:01:52 <ais523> other rules need to be disabled too to make a permanent rule
22:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Has this been attempted?
22:01:59 <ais523> such as the one that says permanent rules are disallowed
22:02:05 <ais523> and no, because permanent rules are a stupid idea
22:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Permanent viral rules?
22:02:17 <ais523> as the whole point of a nomic is to not have permanent rules
22:02:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the 3:1 rule is just the proposal-passing rule.
22:02:24 <ais523> even that's a bad idea
22:02:35 <ais523> why would you even want a permanent viral rule?
22:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> A single rule which says only "this rule is immutable".
22:02:51 <ais523> even that would be bad form IMO
22:02:58 <ais523> if you want a permanent trophy, make it too cool to repeal
22:03:15 <ais523> as in, people will never vote to repeal it
22:03:17 <Vorpal> ais523, such as the fountain?
22:03:20 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:03:22 <ais523> exactly
22:03:30 <Vorpal> ais523, wasn't there a whale too?
22:03:34 <ais523> rule 104's never been changed, and as a result, most players will refuse to vote for changes to it
22:03:42 <ais523> especially as there's no reason to change or repeal it
22:03:55 <ais523> Vorpal: rule 2105
22:04:03 <impomatic> What happened to egobot?
22:04:08 <Vorpal> ais523, http://www.agoranomic.org/ <-- wait, did they redesign that page
22:04:10 <ais523> that one's was explicitly intended for people to scam their way into, eventually, but it lasted longer than expected
22:04:13 <ais523> Vorpal: "they"?
22:04:14 <Vorpal> the agora nomic website that is
22:04:16 <ais523> I wrote that
22:04:20 <Vorpal> hah
22:04:20 <alise> Vorpal: ais523 rewrote it, now it's unreadable
22:04:27 <Vorpal> alise, no it isn't
22:04:28 <alise> (because of the silly two columns)
22:04:29 <ais523> and alise has gone all crazy about inability to read the page
22:04:29 <Vorpal> just different
22:04:37 <ais523> alise: if a page is in two columns and one is ads, is it unreadable?
22:04:52 <Vorpal> alise, why would two columns be unreadable
22:04:52 <alise> ais523: you'd fill a whole column with ads?
22:04:56 <Vorpal> wikipedia main page uses that
22:04:58 <ais523> alise: I've seen it done
22:04:59 <Vorpal> and a lot more
22:05:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:05:08 <alise> also, I try and keep a policy of not talking to anyone who takes disagreement as "going all crazy"
22:05:09 <Vorpal> w3c uses 3 columns iirc
22:05:12 <ais523> I wouldn't, I mean
22:05:13 <alise> so please don't.
22:05:24 <ais523> but if you can filter out ads from a second column, why not text?
22:05:29 <alise> Vorpal: w3c uses three columns, of which one is content and the other two is navigation
22:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Agora would seem an interesting thing to do, but I suspect it'd require a large investment of time and effort...
22:05:43 <Vorpal> alise, anyway why is two columns of text wrong?
22:05:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, it requires basically 0
22:06:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not that much, you only need to pay attention once a week or so, maybe even less
22:06:06 <alise> i'm a lazy arse who just mocks wooble every now and then on the mailing list
22:06:08 <alise> and i'm still a player
22:06:30 <ais523> if you want things to /happen/, you basically have to do them yourself, otherwise it just sits there doing nothing but the occasional report
22:06:42 <ais523> but if you're content to watch and chip in occasionally, hardly any effort's required
22:07:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't understand rule 104
22:07:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I just read it
22:07:28 <Vorpal> ais523, what is a speaker in agora? It takes too much to find the relevant rules
22:07:31 * impomatic offers ais523 as a sacrifice to summon Egobot.
22:07:32 <ais523> The Speaker for the first game shall be Michael Norrish
22:07:35 <ais523> ouch
22:07:48 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, you said that "<ais523> rule 104's never been changed, and as a result, most players will refuse to vote for changes to it"
22:07:49 <Vorpal> so um
22:07:52 <ais523> the Speaker for the first game /was/ Michael Norrish, it doesn't matter what it means now
22:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, I still have the swatpan.
22:08:01 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
22:08:06 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans ais523 --==\#/
22:08:08 <ais523> thus, Michael Norrish is obligated to be MIchael Norrish, an obligation that he takes very seriously
22:08:18 <Vorpal> ais523, err? XD
22:08:30 <alise> once, Michael Norrish was not Michael Norrish
22:08:34 <alise> we exiled him from the game retroactively
22:08:47 <ais523> alise: is that just a blatant lie?
22:08:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:08:52 <ais523> or do you know something you aren't telling me?
22:08:58 <alise> ais523: I know ... all things ...
22:09:09 <alise> (it's as much of a blatant lie as him being serious about his responsibility to be himself)
22:09:12 <alise> (which is to say, entirely)
22:09:23 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:29 <ais523> alise: well, it was found via CFJ that he legally had to be Michael Norrish
22:09:38 <ais523> and he's generally been pretty good about keeping to the rules
22:09:47 <alise> ais523: hmm
22:09:51 <alise> ais523: ooh, I have an excellent idea
22:10:02 <alise> ais523: Michael Norrish is breaking the rules; I'll elaborate in /msg
22:10:42 <Vorpal> hm does "suffusion of yellow" come from Dirk Gently or does it have some older source?
22:11:04 <cpressey> impomatic: a sacrifice to Gregor, I assume
22:11:22 <ais523> Vorpal: incidentally, I learnt WML from looking at existing examples
22:11:23 <ais523> am I mad?
22:11:28 <alise> Vorpal: dirk gently
22:11:37 <alise> Vorpal: wait, no
22:11:39 <alise> RishoNomic
22:11:44 <alise> *Rishonomic
22:11:46 <Vorpal> alise, Dirk Gently would be older
22:11:47 <Vorpal> :P
22:11:56 <alise> it isn't
22:11:59 <Vorpal> ais523, it shouldn't be too hard
22:12:03 <alise> didn't you see how much time travel was in that story?
22:12:15 <Vorpal> alise, err...?
22:12:17 <ais523> also, what a language!
22:12:29 <ais523> it's like someone decided to make an XML-based language, and was serious about it
22:12:35 <ais523> but mixed it with the C preprocessor
22:12:45 <Vorpal> ais523, but it is a DSL so learning it from examples wouldn't be impossible
22:12:58 <Vorpal> at least in my experience
22:13:02 <ais523> Vorpal: it isn't a DSL, really
22:13:06 <Vorpal> ais523, oh?
22:13:06 <ais523> it's a pretty general language
22:13:10 <Vorpal> hah
22:13:33 <Vorpal> ais523, also I thought it was heavy on [ ] for syntax? was that the preprocessor stuff?
22:14:17 <ais523> Vorpal: no, that's the XML
22:14:22 <ais523> it uses square brackets rather than angle brackets
22:14:31 <ais523> the preprocessor uses #ifdef, etc, as in C
22:14:37 <ais523> except that # is /also/ a comment character
22:14:42 <ais523> and also, it uses braces
22:14:51 <cpressey> yay
22:15:15 <cpressey> is it pluggable?
22:15:18 <cpressey> it should be pluggable.
22:15:30 <ais523> cpressey: very pluggable
22:15:40 <Vorpal> ais523, hah
22:15:41 <ais523> you can do {path/to/directory}
22:15:48 <ais523> and it automatically #includes every file in that directory
22:16:01 <alise> ais523: is WML the WAP one?
22:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, not #include or anything such?
22:16:03 <cheater99> hi
22:16:04 <cheater99> sup
22:16:09 <alise> i guess not
22:16:10 <impomatic> cpressey: a sacrifice to anyone with the power to summon egobot. I want to test a BF Joust entry before I add it to the wiki :-)
22:16:10 <cpressey> ais523: does order matter?
22:16:12 <ais523> alise: no, Battle for Wesnoth
22:16:14 <Vorpal> alise, no? it is wesnoth
22:16:28 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not called #include, it's called {}, which is the syntax also used for something entirely different
22:16:35 <Vorpal> ais523, XD
22:16:41 <ais523> apparently, the game disambiguates by checking to see if the file in question exists or not
22:16:44 <Vorpal> ais523, I guess it is not LR(1) or?
22:16:51 <Vorpal> ah
22:16:56 <Vorpal> indeed crazy parsing at least
22:16:56 <ais523> (actually, hopefully it checks the list of definitions first)
22:17:03 <cpressey> ais523: the best kind of context dependency ever!
22:17:06 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it's basically XML, it parses incredibly regularly
22:17:20 <Vorpal> ais523, huh, but not preprocessing?
22:17:20 <ais523> in fact, the only way I found to make it error at all is to include a mismatched bracket or something like that
22:17:29 <ais523> anything else just fails silently
22:17:37 <Vorpal> ais523, that's rather nasty
22:17:58 <ais523> the lang isn't aware that it's trapped inside Wesnoth
22:17:58 <Vorpal> ais523, also why is the preprocessor used? Not for control flow I presume?
22:18:03 <ais523> Vorpal: for subroutines
22:18:03 <alise> TOAST A BEAR
22:18:07 <ais523> everything is inlined
22:18:09 <Vorpal> ais523, *ouhc*
22:18:13 <Vorpal> *ouch*
22:18:26 <Vorpal> alise, not large enough toaster
22:18:26 <ais523> there's a way around it, but it's really complex, involving setting up events to call each other in the future
22:18:29 <Vorpal> alise, otherwise: sure
22:18:31 <ais523> so the subroutines are more efficient
22:18:37 <alise> note to self:
22:18:41 <alise> Vorpal would eat toasted bear
22:18:46 <Vorpal> alise, no I wouldn't
22:18:49 <ais523> I suspect that the loading bar when you start playing is mostly inlining subroutines
22:18:50 <Vorpal> I would toast it
22:18:56 <Vorpal> I didn't say I would eat the result
22:18:57 <Vorpal> alise, :P
22:19:15 <Vorpal> alise, please read what it says, I would test it on you first
22:19:19 <Vorpal> to see if it was eatable
22:19:44 <ais523> *edible?
22:19:50 <ais523> besides, who eats a /toaster/
22:19:51 <Vorpal> ais523, edible as well
22:20:05 <alise> eatable and edible, what a requirement
22:20:14 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:20:17 <Vorpal> ais523, eatable I define as "physically possible to eat, like you can get it into your mouth and so on"
22:20:20 <cheater99> alise
22:20:21 <olsner> nomable?
22:20:24 <cheater99> why does firefox suck so much
22:20:30 <Vorpal> edible I define as the usual meaning
22:20:30 <alise> Vorpal: your definition does not agree with the english language
22:20:33 <alise> cheater99: because it isn't chrome
22:20:38 <alise> Anything edible; That can be eaten without harm; non-toxic to humans; suitable for consumption; That can be eaten without disgust
22:20:39 <alise> en.wiktionary.org/wiki/edible
22:20:41 <Vorpal> alise, of course not, since when did it ever do that?
22:20:41 <olsner> cheater: due to excessive suckage
22:20:42 <cheater99> how did you know :(
22:20:49 <alise> Vorpal: "edible" does not mean "nice"
22:20:50 <cheater99> alise stop reading my mind
22:20:51 <ais523> chrome seems like an appropriate material to plate a toaster with...
22:20:56 <alise> "edible" means "literally able to be eaten"
22:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eatable
22:21:08 <alise> so what you mean by "eatable" is actually "edible"
22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> jesus fuck
22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> why is it so hard to find an extension for firefox
22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> that makes the address bar search things, like in chrome?
22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> it is impossible
22:21:13 <cheater99> * cheater99 says that with a french accent
22:21:15 <Vorpal> alis<alise> Vorpal: "edible" does not mean "nice" <-- correct
22:21:27 <Vorpal> alise, but see my link
22:21:35 <alise> edible (not comparable)
22:21:35 <alise> That can be eaten without harm; non-toxic to humans; suitable for consumption.
22:21:35 <alise> eatable (comparative more eatable, superlative most eatable)
22:21:35 <alise> Able to be eaten; edible
22:21:39 <alise> they mean the same thing.
22:21:39 <cheater99> alise: what if you say a girl is edible
22:21:46 <Vorpal> alise, okay then
22:21:46 <alise> except that eatable makes no sense.
22:21:53 <cheater99> would that mean she's nice?
22:21:55 <Vorpal> alise, it exists as a word
22:21:56 <alise> edible also means "That can be eaten without disgust." but less so
22:21:58 <Vorpal> alise, thus :P
22:22:05 <alise> cheater99: "Yeah, she's totally non-toxic to humans".
22:22:12 <cheater99> yeah.
22:22:28 <cheater99> alise: well "inedible" can still be "digestible"
22:22:37 <cheater99> like, there are some types of mushrooms
22:22:40 <alise> a guy digested a plane
22:22:40 <cheater99> that are not edible
22:22:43 <alise> doesn't mean the plane is edible :P
22:22:48 <cheater99> but if you force yourself to eat them, you won't die
22:23:04 <cheater99> or get ill
22:23:08 <cheater99> they are just terrible in taste
22:23:12 <cheater99> and difficult to chew
22:23:16 <cheater99> and stuff
22:23:26 <cheater99> but in a pinch, they provide protein
22:23:44 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:24:32 <cheater99> alise have you ever picked mushrooms
22:24:42 <cheater99> are you a person who enjoys trip to the woods
22:24:49 <alise> no.
22:25:00 <cheater99> you're missing out
22:25:54 -!- sshc has joined.
22:26:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:26:44 <Vorpal> cheater99, here is what I dislike about doing that:
22:27:05 <Vorpal> Exhibit A: Mushroom tasting nice.
22:27:09 <cheater99> you suddenly start hallucinating and find yourself in devonshire?
22:27:16 <Vorpal> Exhibit B: Looks exactly like A but lethal
22:27:24 <cheater99> with clothes on you've never seen before?
22:27:29 <Vorpal> Exhibit C: Looks exactly like A but causes you to hallucinate
22:27:40 <Vorpal> Exhibit D: Looks exactly like A but just tastes boring
22:27:45 <cheater99> inedible mushrooms look completely different
22:27:52 <cheater99> i'm not sure what you're talking about
22:27:57 <alise> i see no problem with exhibit c :)
22:28:07 <cheater99> ALISE :O
22:28:18 <alise> or d, really
22:28:21 * cheater99 suddenly thinks alise is a miscreant
22:28:25 <cheater99> omg
22:28:32 <cheater99> (not really)
22:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, well, depends on if you serve it at the annual anti-drug society meeting :P
22:28:41 <cheater99> Vorpal: haha
22:29:02 <Vorpal> alise, yes B is the issue
22:29:20 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway what about "kantarell" whatever that is called in English I don't know
22:29:31 <Vorpal> iirc there are some sorts that look extremely similar to a lethal one
22:29:35 <cheater99> i'll give you a hint:
22:29:37 <cheater99> find out
22:29:51 <cheater99> and then tell me what they're called in english.
22:30:38 <alise> takes two seconds with interwiki, maybe Vorpal could take the effort.
22:30:41 <cheater99> unless you mean podgrzybek szatański, whatever that is called in english i don't know.
22:30:53 <Vorpal> hm
22:31:01 <Vorpal> I found out it was not the one I was thinking of
22:31:13 <cheater99> vorpal, i think you need to use the wyszukiwarka tekstu.
22:31:26 <Vorpal> cheater99, I'm looking for the one I meant
22:31:34 <cheater99> ok good
22:31:46 <Vorpal> which was not kantarell (chanterelle)
22:31:58 <cheater99> hmm
22:32:01 <cheater99> it's 11:30 pm
22:32:10 <cheater99> should i go eat some french cheese?
22:32:42 <cheater99> alise: do you enjoy cheese?
22:32:48 <cheater99> Vorpal: i bet you're all for cheese
22:33:27 <Vorpal> yes, well not all sorts
22:33:32 <Vorpal> I can't stand goat cheese
22:33:55 <Vorpal> ah yes it was chantarell
22:34:04 <Vorpal> cheater99, this is the very similar one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygrophoropsis_aurantiaca
22:34:30 <Vorpal> not lethal
22:34:32 <Vorpal> but still nasty
22:35:19 <cpressey> ok lets talk about mushrooms
22:35:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:35:47 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway, there you are, night now →
22:36:05 <Ilari> There are pairs of very good and very toxic mushrooms that look very near the same...
22:36:24 <Vorpal> Ilari, exactly
22:36:26 <Vorpal> →→
22:36:51 <alise> Vorpal: AI is hard, maybe I'll just make them walk randomly.
22:37:37 <cpressey> alise: make them kill their own kind
22:38:31 <cpressey> alise: and add mushrooms of hallucination
22:38:47 <alise> hallu would be hard with my design
22:38:48 <alise> although maybe not
22:39:01 <cheater99> Ilari: they look nearly the same, except their biotopes don't intersect.
22:39:01 <cheater99> almost never ever.
22:39:08 <cheater99> and if they do, every guide book has a big warning about it
22:39:30 <cheater99> and lists the give away characteristics
22:39:44 <Ilari> And then there are at least one pair of mushrooms that look nearly the same, but one is very good and one tastes extremely bad.
22:40:00 <cpressey> one is the evil twin
22:41:01 <cheater99> my point stands
22:41:25 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:42:12 <alise> haha wow hallu is amazing
22:45:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:46:50 <alise> Wow, it's evil.
22:46:59 <alise> Even you can change character.
22:47:49 <cheater99> This mushroom is commonly confused with the Chanterelle; the distinguishing factors are color (true Chanterelle is uniform egg-yellow, while the false one is more orange in hue and graded, with darker center) and attachment of gills to the stem (true Chanterelle does not have true, blade-like gills--rather, has rib-like folds running down the stem).
22:47:51 <cheater99> dude
22:48:04 <cheater99> those blades are the giveaway
22:48:47 <cheater99> alise: what hallu?
22:49:00 <Sgeo> What game?
22:49:00 <alise> cheater99: hallu in vagrant, my silly roguelike
22:49:04 <Sgeo> Ah
22:49:27 <cheater99> alise: oh, i thought you meant a hallucination
22:49:35 <alise> 65 lines of python and no architecture that'll let enemies behave non-stupidly!
22:49:37 <cheater99> alise: i thought you have realized your plan of taking magical mushrooms
22:49:38 <alise> well
22:49:39 <alise> actually
22:49:44 <alise> i can make them chase you no matter what
22:49:52 <alise> cheater99: lol, that'd be some speed
22:50:32 <Vorpal> cheater99, another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blusher
22:51:31 <alise> hmm, maybe killing a dude should give you like $1,000
22:52:26 <Sgeo> alise, your roguelike needs to be easily FooTV-like-system-able
22:52:34 <Sgeo> It's probably one of my favorite things about Crawl
22:52:40 <alise> Sgeo: there is only one enemy and it doesn't even move.
22:52:41 <cpressey> Hi Sgeo
22:52:44 <alise> not yet at least
22:52:47 <cheater99> Vorpal: umm, HELLOO
22:52:51 <cheater99> anyone home?
22:52:58 <cheater99> even on this shitty lcd monitor..
22:53:01 <Sgeo> Probably lots of people
22:53:03 <cheater99> i can see this thing is pink
22:53:12 <cheater99> how could you ever think it's edible?
22:53:24 <Vorpal> cheater99, utter fail
22:53:24 <cheater99> edible mushrooms are yellow-brown.
22:53:26 <Vorpal> "Although edible, it can be confused with deadly poisonous species, and should definitely be avoided by novice mushroomers."
22:53:47 <cpressey> and novice bear toasters alike
22:53:48 <cheater99> well there you go
22:53:53 <cheater99> who cares if it's edible
22:53:55 <cheater99> don't touch it
22:53:58 <cheater99> get a different one
22:54:02 -!- augur has joined.
22:54:04 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
22:54:04 <alise> 1605 vagrant.py
22:54:06 <alise> pretty good charcount for this
22:54:10 <Vorpal> cheater99, still my point stands: they all look alike unless you are an expert
22:54:27 <cheater99> why would you ever want to do that
22:54:35 <Vorpal> do what?
22:54:41 <Vorpal> eat mushrooms? good question
22:54:45 <cheater99> search for mushrooms which look like shitty ones
22:54:46 <cpressey> run wc?
22:55:21 <Vorpal> cheater99, irrelevant for my original claim
22:55:25 <cheater99> alise: paste code plz
22:55:34 <cheater99> Vorpal: your original claim was that it was a problem
22:55:36 <cheater99> Vorpal: it is not.
22:55:39 <cheater99> u loze
22:55:43 <Vorpal> cheater99, it is
22:55:52 <cheater99> to someone who does dumb things, yes
22:56:02 <Vorpal> the biotope thing is not enough to help me at least. I'm not a nature person
22:56:09 <Vorpal> I couldn't tell what biotope it was
22:56:19 <Vorpal> thus my original claim stands
22:57:05 <Vorpal> cheater99, also /<cheater99> u/s/u/you/;s/loze/lose/
22:57:10 <Vorpal> learn to spell
22:57:13 <Vorpal> night →
22:57:29 <cheater99> lrn2sed
22:57:56 <Vorpal> cheater99, yes it was completely correct sed
22:58:10 <cheater99> i thought u sed nite
22:58:18 <Vorpal> cheater99, I had not turned off monitor yet
22:58:50 <Vorpal> cheater99, also please learn to type. people writing "u" instead of "you" and so on is *really* annoying
22:58:52 <cheater99> also, you don't say "correct sed", you say "correctly sed".
22:58:56 <alise> Vorpal: oh it is?
22:58:59 <Vorpal> it makes them look like idiots
22:59:04 <alise> Vorpal: well ull hav 2 get used 2 it
22:59:09 <alise> Vorpal: wont u
22:59:10 <cheater99> vlr;
22:59:13 <Vorpal> alise, And indeed, so you said
22:59:17 <alise> Vorpal: *sed
22:59:20 <alise> Vorpal: *'n
22:59:24 <alise> *u
22:59:34 <Vorpal> <cheater99> also, you don't say "correct sed", you say "correctly sed". <-- no, I used sed as a verb
22:59:38 <cheater99> Vorpal: n' no commaz
22:59:41 <cheater99> dat iz unkool.
22:59:43 <Vorpal> wait
22:59:48 <Vorpal> I mean noun of course
22:59:49 <cheater99> *w8
22:59:52 <Vorpal> you can use it both ways
22:59:55 <alise> punk-tutuashion is unk00wl
23:00:00 <alise> apart 4rom -
23:00:10 <cheater99> u sed it alise
23:00:11 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
23:00:15 <Vorpal> alise, you know, this is just filtered out :P
23:00:16 <alise> s/it/alise/
23:00:22 <cheater99> ^5!
23:00:33 <Vorpal> and now I say good night, unlike last time I used /away as well
23:00:38 <Vorpal> that makes a difference →
23:00:51 <cheater99> *dat
23:00:51 <alise> cheater99: you should debug my code
23:00:55 <alise> Vorpal: hi
23:01:00 <cheater99> alise: url?
23:01:19 <alise> cheater99: http://pastie.org/1201769.txt?key=xtvbpktbvv5gbzotg5bphw
23:01:23 <alise> yes, it's golfed
23:01:42 <alise> the monster movement code (the nested for loop in M)
23:01:44 <alise> crashes it somehow
23:01:49 <alise> unfortunately the endwin means you never see the exception :D
23:01:56 <alise> something's wrong with it, anyway
23:02:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:02:09 <alise> good luck figuring out what all the variables do, i pretty much just pick a letter of the alphabet
23:02:15 <alise>  w[y,x]=46;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64
23:02:16 <alise> erm
23:02:17 <alise> that should be
23:02:20 <alise>  w[y,x]=32;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64
23:02:26 <alise> (that doesn't fix it)
23:03:16 <cheater99> what's "golfed"?
23:04:05 <alise> KeyError: (4, 46)
23:04:05 <alise> hm
23:04:09 <alise> cheater99: "made to be as short as possible"
23:04:11 <alise> ugliness be damned
23:04:17 <alise> after code golf, the sport
23:04:24 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/ is the prime hub for that malarkey
23:05:00 <alise> oh joy, it crashes no longer
23:05:02 <alise> but the guys don't MOVE!
23:06:17 <alise> cool i can walk into walls now, why.
23:06:42 <alise> cheater99: okay, remove that first for loop in M and write something that makes all the Qs on the visible board move closer to the guy.
23:06:44 <alise> that is your task
23:06:57 <oerjan> <Ilari> There are pairs of very good and very toxic mushrooms that look very near the same...
23:07:00 <alise> (you may want to play it a few times to figure out what all the variables are)
23:07:05 <cheater99> um
23:07:15 <cheater99> that's great, my problem is that my pc is going nuts
23:07:23 <cheater99> i think the gfx card is overheating
23:07:29 <cheater99> i see some buffer glitches
23:07:47 <oerjan> it also depends on geography, i hear some asian immigrants to norway get poisoned because one of our poisonous mushrooms look like an edible east asian one
23:07:57 <oerjan> s/hear/read in the newspaper/
23:07:59 <alise> cheater99: thankfully, vagrant runs even without much of a graphics card!
23:08:06 <alise> (can it do text? Yes? YOU WIN!)
23:08:06 <oerjan> *looks
23:08:07 <cheater99> alise: post the current code
23:08:11 <alise> cheater99: okay
23:08:35 <alise> cheater99: http://pastie.org/1201784.txt?key=gvzfssnyfqjigfcfm92luq
23:08:36 <cpressey> alise: so your game is about eating
23:08:40 <alise> partly.
23:08:42 <alise> :P
23:09:09 <alise> cheater99: x,y is your position, X,Y is position of centre cell (infinite plane so we scroll), G is gold, N is # of turns, P is health that can be restored by potions, U is whether we're hallucinating or not
23:09:14 <alise> S is satiation, L is HP
23:09:16 <cheater99> i know
23:09:20 <alise> w is the gamefield indexed by pairs of y and x
23:09:20 <alise> okay.
23:09:34 <cpressey> square root of minus gamefield
23:09:49 <alise> cpressey: lawl
23:09:53 <cheater99> w contains numbers
23:09:57 <alise> cheater99: charcodes
23:09:58 <alise> ascii
23:10:00 <cheater99> i know but
23:10:05 <cheater99> what do they reprazent?
23:10:09 <oerjan> (incidentally chanterelles are among the "safe" mushrooms in norway)
23:10:11 <alise> the cells at that position
23:10:14 <cheater99> 64 is me
23:10:17 <alise> yes
23:10:20 <alise> @ is 64 in ascii
23:10:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:10:24 <cheater99> i know
23:10:30 <alise> ah
23:10:30 <cheater99> i mean, what do they represent in game?
23:10:34 <alise> % is food
23:10:35 <alise> ! is potion
23:10:38 <alise> $ is gold
23:10:47 <alise> # is inexplicable cube of unbreakable glass that you can't walk through
23:10:50 <alise> Q is a bad guy
23:10:57 <alise> $ python
23:10:58 <alise> ord('x')
23:11:00 <alise> to find the numbers
23:11:02 <alise> that's what i do :P
23:11:04 <alise> 81 is Q, I know that
23:11:09 <alise> oh, and space is just open space
23:11:46 <alise> cheater99: controls: vi keys to move, q to restore health from potions you've picked up (amount you can in parens after HP display), space waits
23:11:48 <cheater99> i know ord.
23:11:53 <alise> right.
23:11:56 <cheater99> hm
23:12:10 <alise> cheater99: and basically all the Qs have to do is move one step closer to the @
23:12:23 <alise> you could do it more fancy if you're that masochistic, but if you want to play with the monster code that's what i'd do
23:12:28 <alise> ofc they can only walk onto space
23:12:34 <alise> since there's no memory of what's underneath a monster
23:12:38 <alise> so they'd inexplicably suck up gold
23:12:40 <alise> (maybe that's a feature)
23:13:15 <cheater99> yes
23:13:39 <cheater99> maybe numbers > 1000 should be amount of gold + 1000.
23:13:42 <cheater99> + monster.
23:13:59 <cheater99> so you have a countable amount of monsters
23:14:10 <cheater99> and it's a parametrized type!!!!!!
23:14:16 <cheater99> !!!!111
23:14:20 <alise> cheater99: i lost you after "yes"
23:15:03 <cheater99> w[x,y] == A > 1000   -> there is a monster at x,y with A-1000 gold.
23:15:44 <quintopia> anyone know if there is a polynomial time or approximately polynomial time algorithm for finding an embedding of a graph in a plane that minimizes the number of edge intersections?
23:16:16 <alise> cheater99: oh i see
23:16:19 <alise> i was thinking rather
23:16:24 <alise> kill monsters before they suck up all the gold ;P
23:16:25 <alise> *:P
23:16:43 <alise> cheater99: pretty sure the condition to go to the boss will just be having a certain amount of gold and getting to a booth
23:16:44 <cheater99> but gold can be level
23:16:49 <alise> hmm, interesting
23:16:58 <alise> cheater99: still, i think figuring out why the buggers won't move is a good first step
23:17:18 <cpressey> quintopia: sounds NP-complete-ish on first blush, but maybe not
23:18:28 <alise> cheater99: meanwhile I'll get rid of the M function, since we don't need it! hooray for obfuscation!
23:18:39 <quintopia> cpressey: it doesn't seem so obvious to me, but even if it is NP-complete in some parameters it may be polynomial in others. . .
23:19:05 <quintopia> alise: so this is what python looks like...
23:19:22 <oerjan> quintopia: i think it's polynomial if the no. of edge intersections is bounded, no idea otherwise
23:19:36 <cheater99> is w in relation to the center, or to the player?
23:19:59 <alise> cheater99: it's global
23:20:04 <oerjan> (because if there are < k intersections you can just try removing all k-edge sets in turn until you find one that makes the rest planar)
23:20:07 <alise> (0,0) is the centre of everything, regardless of where you are, it's where you started
23:20:15 <alise> cheater99: if you go far enough you'll get to (3945783489579435,3459873459843759435)
23:20:22 <cheater99> ok
23:20:57 <oerjan> but obviously this algorithm is exponential in k
23:21:17 <quintopia> oerjan: so, polynomial in number of vertices and numer of edge intersection?
23:21:17 <quintopia> oerjan: can you point me to an algorithm?
23:21:22 <quintopia> sorry
23:21:30 <quintopia> that was about a 30 second lag in text entry
23:21:44 <quintopia> aka, i typed all that before you gave me an alg
23:21:48 <oerjan> ok :D
23:22:34 <oerjan> oh hm wait there's a subtlety here
23:22:57 <oerjan> adding an edge it may have to intersect _several_ others
23:23:22 <quintopia> sure, but if you start at 1 and work your way up to k, you'll find that case first...
23:23:42 <oerjan> oh hm right
23:23:52 <oerjan> um
23:24:22 <oerjan> ok if you have < k intersections you of course must have < k edges forcing them, so yeah
23:25:59 <quintopia> which brings an interesting question: what's the maximum number of intersections an n node graph can contain?
23:26:21 <quintopia> (assuming that said graph is drawn in a minimal intersection way)
23:26:38 <quintopia> aka, what's the fewest number of intersections the complete graph can contain
23:27:08 <quintopia> (simple graphs only question)
23:27:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:28:02 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
23:28:09 <oerjan> quintopia: oh wait there's another subtlety - removing an edge, then an arbitrary planar embedding of the rest may not be what gives minimal intersections when you add the edge back in
23:28:12 <quintopia> meh, seems like it'll end up being O(n) anyway
23:28:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:28:17 <oerjan> that may be more serious
23:28:30 <quintopia> good point
23:28:34 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
23:29:23 <cpressey> wait
23:29:28 <quintopia> indeed, it may be that no planar embedding of the rest will yield a minimizer
23:29:48 <quintopia> and in fact one needs to find a planar embedding when two edges are removed or something
23:29:51 <cpressey> "if it is NP-complete in some parameters it may be polynomial in others"
23:30:04 <oerjan> quintopia: oh right even that
23:30:06 <cpressey> how do you mean?
23:31:05 <oerjan> cpressey: basically that the restricted problem of looking _just_ at < k edge intersecting graphs may be polynomial to decide for a fixed k even if it is exponential in k
23:31:12 -!- zeotrope has joined.
23:31:30 <quintopia> what oerjan said faster than i could
23:31:53 <quintopia> you can bound some parameter and what remains is polynomially solvable
23:31:56 <cpressey> oh, parameter being # of intersecting edges.  ok
23:32:50 <oerjan> cpressey: for example i recall that the problem of deciding whether one graph is isomorphic to a subgraph of another is NP-complete, but if the smaller graph is _fixed_ (or bounded in size) then it's a polynomial problem
23:33:15 <oerjan> in the larger graph
23:33:19 <quintopia> indeed, obviously so
23:34:03 <quintopia> once you know there is a polynomial time algorithm for unifying graphs on the same number of nodes/edges
23:34:03 <cheater99> alise: just so you know, you've been doing it in the wrong place.
23:34:20 <alise> cheater99: oh. goody.
23:34:25 <alise> cheater99: have you fixed it? :P
23:34:44 <quintopia> alise: the bedroom is the wrong place.  next time try it in the library.
23:35:18 <cheater99> so spaces are nothing?
23:35:21 <cheater99> or zeros?
23:35:26 <quintopia> (look out for Col. Mustard's lead pipe.  you never know where he'll stick it.)
23:35:31 <alise> cheater99: both :P
23:35:35 <alise> sort of
23:35:38 <oerjan> quintopia: um on a _fixed_ number of nodes/edges.  unifying with the same but arbitrary is the graph isomorphism problem which is not known to be P (and is one of the most famous problems in NP to be neither known P or NP-complete)
23:35:38 <alise> cheater99: zeroes are uninitialised things
23:35:43 <alise> that will get initialised when they scroll into view
23:35:48 <alise> so no problem with assigning to them
23:35:51 <alise> spaces are open space
23:36:01 <alise> a zero could be anything, you just don't know until you move so that it's in view
23:36:05 <alise> obviously we can't calculate infinite cells
23:36:14 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah yeah yeah, i know what i meant
23:36:46 <Sgeo> alise, about convincing my dad: When I suggested that this was my normal weight, he said something along the lines of "Maybe. Some people are like that" or something to that effect
23:37:46 <quintopia> in particular if the smaller fixed graph has k nodes, there is a trivial n^k*k! alg. for subgraph isomorphism
23:37:50 <quintopia> that's what i meant by obvious
23:38:51 <oerjan> yeah
23:39:02 <quintopia> so anyway, we still don't even know if there's a solution for the original problem with edge intersections bounded
23:39:08 <quintopia> maybe the tubes know
23:41:35 <cheater99> alise: i made them go to the center. :p
23:41:37 <quintopia> okay apparently this is a really really difficult question
23:42:18 <cheater99> and eat through walls :p
23:43:04 <alise> cheater99: yeah you might want to check that it ==32 or ==0
23:43:13 <alise> cheater99: also if you can do that, just s/0,0/x,y/ (or maybe y,x)
23:43:19 <cheater99> i know that
23:43:27 <cheater99> and yea
23:43:29 <alise> cheater99: or if you want it to eat items !=whatever '#' is :P
23:43:34 <oerjan> quintopia: i'd imagine graph drawing software would find such an algorithm useful if it existed
23:43:50 <quintopia> true
23:44:01 <oerjan> (maybe that was how you thought of it?)
23:45:01 <cheater99> is every $ worth the same?
23:45:16 <alise> cheater99: no
23:45:24 <alise>  if c==36:G+=randint(5,50)
23:45:40 <alise> interestingly this is not determined until you hit it. totally quantum maan
23:45:47 <cheater99> i was just gonna / for that
23:45:47 <cpressey> what kind of economy is that
23:45:53 <cheater99> but you were faster
23:45:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:46:00 <cheater99> cpressey: the quantum economy!!!!!!
23:46:47 <quintopia> oerjan: i thought of it in the context of the wire-crossing problem.  what if the strong hypothesis turns out to be true for some definition of "state"?  then, the next obvious question would be "what's the minimum number of crossings required?"
23:47:48 <quintopia> and so i immediately asked "well, how do we even check the number of crossings required for simple machines we already have state diagrams for?"
23:48:52 <quintopia> and I thought it must be a very hard problem, since there is a game about it (gPlanarity)
23:49:18 <oerjan> my intuition on the wire-crossing problem is sort of based on the fact that the 3-coloring problem is NP-complete even for planar graphs.
23:49:54 <quintopia> you intuit that the strong hypothesis holds?
23:50:12 <oerjan> which i think means you very easily can get full computational power without wire-crossing
23:50:19 <quintopia> aha
23:50:39 <quintopia> yes i agree
23:50:51 <quintopia> for a lot of reasons
23:50:59 <quintopia> but that's a interesting one too
23:51:37 <alise> cheater99: I will give you $947595486749567945698456 in exchange for your code.
23:51:50 <cheater99> NOT DONE YET
23:52:43 <alise> cheater99: I hope you are omitting spaces!
23:52:51 <oerjan> cheater99: hint, that's zimbabwean dollars
23:53:03 <pikhq> And another set of hardsubs bites the dust.
23:53:22 <alise> headache vomit bleargh
23:53:36 <quintopia> the other reason i thought of it is exactly what you think: In fizzie's grasp language, programs are graphs, and they might be nonplanar.  ais523 wants underlambda to be able to compile to any language, and so it would benefit from the ability to have output grasp programs have as few edge crossings as possible.
23:53:58 <quintopia> (so they are more human readable)
23:54:26 <oerjan> quintopia: found something maybe relevant
23:54:32 <oerjan> "More generally, for any fixed constant k, it is possible to recognize in linear time the k-apex graphs, the graphs in which the removal of some carefully-chosen set of at most k vertices leads to a planar graph.[6] If k is variable, however, the problem is NP-complete."
23:54:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_graph
23:54:57 <quintopia> oerjan: i'd take that much in ZWD, if it still existed.  that's actually an appreciable amount of money despite hyperinflation.
23:55:26 <oerjan> yeah but you'd better use it fast
23:56:14 <quintopia> i actually bid on a 20trillion ZWD on ebay once
23:56:17 <quintopia> i didn't win tho
23:56:33 <quintopia> i hear they aren't very high quality bills.  just paper.
23:57:04 <oerjan> quintopia: i imagine the second sentence strongly suggests that your problem is NP-complete for variable k too
23:57:11 <quintopia> anyway, this apex graph thing implies that the general problem is probably NP-complete, but it still doesn't answer the fixed k question
23:57:13 <oerjan> er last
23:57:21 * pikhq hates hardcoded subs.
23:57:27 <alise> cheater99
23:57:37 <cheater99> yes
23:57:43 <cheater99> i am coding ai
23:57:44 <cheater99> shh
23:57:45 <alise> koed :|
23:57:49 <alise> haha wat
23:57:55 <alise> can you gimme your code before-ai too just in case it develops sentience
23:57:56 <cheater99> TOTALLY
23:58:01 <alise> i don't want sentience
23:58:03 <cheater99> you will be swooped
23:58:06 <alise> cheater99: also there are no attacks yet...
23:58:06 <cheater99> it is sentient already
23:58:31 <oerjan> yes but is it _sapient_
23:58:38 <oerjan> important distinction
23:58:52 * oerjan whistles innocently
23:59:00 <quintopia> i doubt it is even sentient
23:59:13 <quintopia> but: is sapience possible without sentience?
23:59:25 <oerjan> i mean it's all good and well with an AI complaining of pain in its diodes, but that's not the same as intelligence
23:59:33 <alise> quintopia: restate that without using the words sapience and sentience

2010-10-06:

00:00:16 <quintopia> is wisdom/intelligence impossible without the capacity to process sensation/input?
00:00:32 <quintopia> i inverted the question too...
00:00:41 <oerjan> i find that a bit weak definition of sentient
00:00:48 <oerjan> _any_ computer would qualify
00:00:52 <alise> quintopia: that's a rubbish replacement, but: yes, it is impossible
00:00:53 <quintopia> i chose a weak definition on purpose
00:01:10 <oerjan> (well any non-broken one)
00:01:37 <oerjan> hm this reminds me of _another_ H2G2 quote
00:02:05 <quintopia> it highlights the distinction well: alise says it's impossible for something to be sapient without doing something so simple every computer already qualifies as being able to do ti
00:04:06 <quintopia> indeed, i like to believe 1) computers _are_ sentient and 2) sentience is not necessarily a prerequisite for sapience, just as I/O is not a prerequisite for TCness
00:04:45 <cheater99> so the coords are w[y,x]?
00:04:53 <alise> cheater99: yes. can i have the code as it is now? i have to go
00:05:02 <alise> quintopia: computers are not sentient.
00:05:04 -!- iGO has quit.
00:05:15 <quintopia> alise: be patient.  he can always give you the code tomorrow.
00:05:16 <cheater99> just a sec
00:05:33 <alise> quintopia: i did not ask you
00:05:40 <alise> i want to look at it before i go
00:06:13 <cheater99> ok uploadink
00:06:26 <quintopia> alise: i didn't ask you either
00:07:10 <oerjan> "And to this end they built themselves a stupendous super computer which was so amazingly intelligent that even before the data banks had been connected up it had started from I think therefore I am and got as far as the existence of rice pudding and income tax before anyone managed to turn it off."
00:07:13 <quintopia> sentience is a very poorly defined thing out there in the real world, so I chose a meaning for it that at least has some measure of testableness to it
00:07:42 <oerjan> (that was damn hard to find exactly)
00:07:59 <quintopia> that is an impressive computer inded
00:08:43 <cheater99> http://pastie.org/1201911.txt?key=2qq4jgnuxzulqebaa8la
00:09:18 <alise> cheater99: dude, you have all these unnecessary spaces! :|
00:09:31 <cheater99> that's to confuse you
00:09:45 <cheater99> so you think..
00:09:54 <cheater99> "gee, that guy is writing well-formatted code."
00:10:05 <cheater99> then you look at this. ((B-11+o(1,11-B))*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10))),(A-40+o(1,40-A)*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10)))
00:10:16 <cheater99> which is the whole of the monster AI
00:10:32 <cpressey> oerjan: you know how they made it so smart? ... pair programming
00:10:44 <alise> cheater99: what the hell does it do?
00:10:53 <cheater99> haha
00:10:58 <quintopia> cpressey: no they used the FULL POWER OF XP!
00:11:27 <cheater99> alise: there's no telling.
00:11:28 <alise> why do you not write to w directly?
00:11:54 <cheater99> well, hasn't mom told you not to clobber data structures you're looping over?
00:12:23 <alise> you're not looping over it with a for loop
00:12:27 <alise> just iteration
00:12:28 <alise> so it's fine
00:12:33 <cheater99> no, it's not
00:12:45 <cheater99> unless you like your monsters to attain the speed of light
00:12:50 <alise> sure
00:12:56 <cheater99> when they're above you in the screen.
00:12:58 <cheater99> :|
00:13:06 <alise> i will have to shorten it you understand >:)
00:13:11 <quintopia> alise: you should follow his lead and replace all your randints with r
00:13:16 <cheater99> won't happen
00:13:17 <alise> yeah i will
00:13:57 <alise> w[v] > 9000:
00:13:59 <alise> dear god what
00:14:06 <quintopia> ahahahaha
00:14:13 <alise> cheater99: THERE IS NO CHARACTER 9000
00:14:25 <cheater99> no
00:14:28 <quintopia> but what if it's over 9000?
00:14:31 <cheater99> but there will be characters OVER 9000.
00:14:36 <alise> cheater99: why
00:14:43 <cheater99> because i told you why.
00:14:48 <alise> no you didn't
00:14:56 * oerjan swats alise -----###
00:14:56 <cheater99> yes i did
00:15:01 <oerjan> MEME DETECTION ERROR
00:15:05 <cheater99> except 9=1
00:15:06 <quintopia> 19:12 < cheater99> when they're above you in the screen.
00:15:12 <cheater99> no
00:15:17 <cheater99> shh quince
00:15:22 <cheater99> alise: it's for gold monsters
00:15:24 <cpressey> omg unicode roguelike display
00:15:25 <alise> oerjan: it's in code
00:15:27 <alise> cheater99: what
00:15:29 <cheater99> i.e. G's
00:15:37 <alise> since when are there Gs
00:15:38 <cheater99> monsters carrying gold
00:15:43 <cheater99> are G's.
00:15:57 <cheater99> they lvl up with gold
00:16:06 <quintopia> neat
00:16:11 <cheater99> !
00:16:14 <alise> you realise that still none of this tries to go near the player :D
00:16:15 <alise> which was the idea
00:16:25 <cheater99> well you have to stop running away
00:16:34 <cheater99> otherwise of course they'll be confused
00:17:04 <quintopia> cheater99: i think he wants monsters that behave exactly like DROD roaches
00:17:23 * oerjan read that as DROP
00:17:33 <oerjan> any relation to drop bears...
00:17:33 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:17:45 <cheater99> there's a nice exception being generated somewhere
00:17:46 <quintopia> oshit.  oerjan is in meme mode
00:17:49 <cheater99> and with that, i'm off to sleep
00:18:08 <cheater99> and btw, something's still a bit fucked :D
00:18:13 <cheater99> because they jump around
00:18:17 <cheater99> but they haven't before
00:18:19 <cheater99> which is weird
00:18:37 <cheater99> alise: what's needed is a log window
00:19:05 <cpressey> log to the serial port
00:19:11 <alise> cheater99: naw
00:20:09 <quintopia> everyone loves a log!
00:20:27 <cpressey> it's big, it's heavy, it's wood
00:20:32 <quintopia> what rolls down stairs/ alone or in pairs/ rolls over your neighbors dog?
00:20:44 <cheater99> found why they were fucked
00:20:52 <cheater99> ((B-11+o(1,11-B))*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10))),(A-40+o(1,40-A)*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10)))
00:20:57 <cheater99> try this
00:23:04 <alise> what is the ai logic?
00:24:06 <quintopia> if i'm reading that right, it just moves closer by a random amount random speed probability thing
00:24:08 <cheater99> this is the ai logic
00:24:13 <oerjan> hyperparainconsistent antiintuitive metapredicate illogic
00:24:26 <cheater99> there is no ai logic other than what i have posted
00:24:30 <cheater99> that line
00:24:59 <alise> explain it :P
00:25:13 <cpressey> oerjan: NO
00:25:37 <cheater99> alise: it's not even esoteric
00:25:41 <cheater99> alise: it's just arithmetic -_-
00:25:43 <oerjan> cpressey: YES and i agree
00:25:47 <cheater99> alise: pls try harder
00:25:47 <alise> cheater99: yes but i'm tired
00:25:50 <alise> and have a headache
00:25:54 <alise> and one of my keys broke
00:25:56 <cheater99> well leave it for tomorrow :p
00:25:59 <alise> and i forgot what the functions are
00:26:04 <cheater99> you'll enjoy it tomorrow
00:26:09 <cheater99> instead of having it given to you today
00:26:19 <quintopia> alise: start by expanding r to randint and o to copysign
00:27:08 <cheater99> they are chasing the player now
00:27:09 <cheater99> :D
00:27:12 <cheater99> cool
00:27:12 <oerjan> its curry-howard isomorphism can only be expressed in extended Malbolge
00:27:14 <cheater99> now to implement G's
00:29:08 <quintopia> cheater99: i'm not actually trying this game, but the player is always at the center, right?
00:29:09 <alise> cheater99: i approve not of your fork ;)
00:29:14 <alise> quintopia: no.
00:29:15 <alise> goodnight bye.
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00:29:20 <cheater99> no.
00:29:46 * quintopia considers more
00:31:16 <quintopia> i guess i don't know what X and Y are supposed to be
00:31:56 <quintopia> is that the current location on the map of the screen top left?
00:33:17 <quintopia> looks right.  so then you're looping over the visible screen, and when you find...
00:35:56 <quintopia> a Q?
00:36:05 <quintopia> monster?
00:42:40 <quintopia> and moves it randomly to the left or right, up or down each with probability 1/4  iirtc
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00:50:08 <cheater99> http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g
00:50:11 <cheater99> there u go
00:51:39 <quintopia> been factored in, i can only assume they give chase now :D
00:52:13 <quintopia> s/been/seeing as have x and y have been/
00:52:39 <quintopia> lagsauce :/
00:52:44 <cheater99> ?
00:52:47 <cheater99> lag?
00:52:48 <cheater99> in what?
00:56:37 <cpressey> copysign, huh
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01:01:54 <cheater99> also known as o( , )
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01:25:15 <Quadlex> Hi everyone
01:25:59 -!- WobblingZuu has changed nick to Zuu.
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02:05:42 <oerjan> > do Just test <- Right Nothing; return "hm"
02:05:42 <lambdabot>   Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
02:05:43 <lambdabot>    `GHC.Show.Show a'
02:05:43 <lambdabot>      a...
02:06:08 <oerjan> > do Just test <- Right Nothing; return "hm" :: Either String String
02:06:09 <lambdabot>   Left "Pattern match failure in do expression at <interactive>:1:136-139"
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02:30:13 <pikhq> *sigh* We're really getting down to needing desperate measures to force IPv6 transitioning.
02:30:54 <Gregor> The ipv4 rapebot.
02:31:24 <pikhq> Something like a major IXP threatening to drop people who don't dual-stack.
02:31:34 <Sgeo> IXP?
02:31:43 <pikhq> Internet Exchange Point.
02:31:45 <Sgeo> Oh, Internet eXchange Point?
02:31:46 <Sgeo> Ah
02:31:48 <Sgeo> >.>
02:31:50 <oerjan> Internet Extermination Protocol
02:32:15 <pikhq> Y'know, where there's tons of peering.
02:32:35 <oerjan> yeah that's probably where the CIA peers over our shoulders
02:32:47 <Gregor> *ba-dum ching*
02:35:27 <Gregor> *ipv4 rapebot rolls in*
02:35:41 <Gregor> <IPV4 Rapebot> VZZZZT DOES YOUR NETWORK SUPPORT IPV6?
02:36:07 <Gregor> <Random sysadmin> Uhh, no, not yet, we're planning on adding support once there's customer demand for it, b--
02:36:47 <Gregor> <IPV4 Rapebot> UNACCEPTABLE RESPONSE. ASSUME PROSTRATE POSITION. BEGINNING INSERTION PROCEDURE.
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02:38:35 <pikhq> oerjan: The NSA actually does have black rooms in US IXPs. (citation: Hepting v. AT&T)
02:39:02 <oerjan> pikhq: hey puns can be based on facts too
02:39:11 <Ilari> Heh... IPv6 is bit lacking. There's no way to properly configure the last mile...
02:39:17 <Ilari> *autoconfigure
02:39:32 <pikhq> Ilari: Whaddya mean?
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02:40:27 <Ilari> pikhq: DHCPv6: Support is poor. RA: Can't configure DNS (at least in most cases).
02:40:46 <Ilari> And no, don't say RDNSS, I know about that.
02:41:04 <pikhq> Clearly we should also have the IPV4 Rapebot go to work on router manufacturers.
02:41:50 <Ilari> More like OS manufacturers...
02:42:02 <pikhq> Which OSes don't support it?
02:42:46 <Gregor> IPV4 Rapebot has many skills.
02:42:48 <pikhq> Aside from XP, which is *more deprecated than Windows 3.1 was when it came out*.
02:42:55 <Gregor> It can rape anyone in need of rape.
02:43:32 <Gregor> pikhq: In spite of the fact that everyone uses it :P
02:43:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, but Microsoft is about to pull the plug on security updates, and that's *all the support it is getting*.
02:43:56 * Ilari grabs some OS updates over IPv6...
02:44:52 <pikhq> That said, if it's that big of an issue, IPV4 Rapebot can go to work on Microsoft.
02:44:59 <pikhq> Surely they can add one more feature.
02:46:09 <oerjan> there is the danger though that microsoft might reverse engineer Rapebot for their own purposes
02:46:21 <pikhq> oerjan: They call it Clippy.
02:46:35 <Ilari> Today's IANA depletion date estimates: 2011-04-20 and 2011-06-01.
02:47:30 <pikhq> Based on current uptake rates, we will be on IPv6 at about 3000.
02:50:24 <Ilari> Soon the IPv6 migration plan in most places will look like this: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/our-disaster-recovery-plan.png
02:51:51 <Ilari> *many
02:53:10 <pikhq> Why the hell aren't ISPs dual-stack *right now*?
02:55:39 <pikhq> Oh, would you look at that. NTT in Japan (*the* phone company) has offered end-user IPv6 for 10 years now.
02:56:28 <pikhq> Clearly you can only move forward with IPv6 if you're willing to offer gigabit to the home.
03:01:51 <Sgeo> Offered?
03:01:56 <Sgeo> Does the customer have to know about it?
03:02:00 <Sgeo> :/
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03:54:09 <pikhq> Welp, trying to get Teredo running and failing somehow.
04:00:53 <pikhq> Somehow, my NAT is untraversible.
04:01:24 <oerjan> how unNATural
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04:02:09 <Ilari> Somehow "Teredo" sounds better than "Shipworm".
04:02:27 <Ilari> :-)
04:02:36 * pikhq shall be waiting on Sixxs, then.
04:02:51 <pikhq> And I can't use Hurricane Electric because the router here *denies pings*.
04:04:51 <Ilari> NAT on what device?
04:05:11 <pikhq> Stepdad's router.
04:05:23 <Ilari> And presumably no way to portforward protocol 41...
04:05:23 <pikhq> He's perversely paranoid about security.
04:05:45 <pikhq> Though ironically it supports UPnP hole punching.
04:06:00 <pikhq> Proof that a computer science degree does not net you common sense.
04:08:31 <Ilari> The computer that protocol 41 was forwarded to could then route the data for the rest...
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04:10:21 <pikhq> UPnP hole punching does TCP ports only.
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04:11:46 <pikhq> Quite convenient for BitTorrent, but not much else.
04:12:00 <Ilari> And malware...
04:12:19 <pikhq> Quite true.
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04:15:05 <Ilari> pikhq: Teredo not working is probably means one or both of two things: 1) NAT is symmetric or 2) There's extensive port blocking.
04:18:42 <pikhq> Ilari: I *doubt* it's symmetric NAT, so I'm going with UDP port blocking.
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04:27:21 <pikhq> So definitely waiting on Sixxs.
04:45:32 <pikhq> Motherfucking
04:45:35 <pikhq> States now charging for use of public defenders.
04:47:37 <Ilari> Heh... Spammer fined $1,068,928,721.46
04:57:48 <Slereah> NOT ENOUGH
04:57:58 <Slereah> We must steal his bones!
05:00:40 <bsmntbombdood> how can you charge for a public defender?
05:00:50 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "Fuck the Supreme Court"
05:01:19 <bsmntbombdood> oh
05:01:46 <pikhq> Basically: by doing so, and nobody appeals it.
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05:25:26 <Sgeo> night\
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07:35:54 <cheater99> hi
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08:40:02 <augur> egg foo young is so delicious omg
08:43:35 <cheater99> egg wat?
08:47:08 <augur> egg foo young
08:47:14 <augur> its basically a chinese-style omelette
08:47:24 <Slereah> Do you
08:47:28 <Slereah> Pity the foo
08:47:32 <augur> no
08:47:35 <cheater99> what's the diff
08:47:37 <cheater99> ?
08:47:43 <augur> cheater99: in theory, nothing
08:47:48 <augur> in practice, EVERYTHING
08:47:53 <cheater99> splain
08:48:39 <augur> i dont know exactly how to explain it
08:48:50 <cheater99> This dish is prepared with beaten eggs and minced ham. From these dishes, Chinese chefs in the United States, at least as early as the 1930s, created a pancake filled with eggs, vegetables, and meat or seafood.
08:48:52 <cheater99> there you go
08:48:55 <cheater99> explained in two sentences.
08:49:26 <augur> that just describes an omelette :|
08:50:04 <augur> it says "pancake" but egg foo young doesnt have any bread
08:50:10 <augur> so who knows what that writer was thinking
08:53:07 <cheater99> pancakes usually don't have any bread in them.
08:53:36 <augur> well, they're a bread-like food
08:53:43 <augur> doughy
08:53:51 <augur> or batter-y, in this case
08:54:00 <augur> but egg foo young doesnt have batter
08:57:08 <cheater99> you know a lot about this
08:57:20 <augur> well, i just ate some!
08:57:20 <cheater99> are you a batter specialist?
08:57:21 <augur> so
08:57:25 <cheater99> the master batter
08:57:27 <augur> batterologist, in fact
08:57:33 <cheater99> *rimshot*
08:58:13 <augur> interestingly, theres a fine line between batter and scrambled egg
08:58:37 <cheater99> oh?
08:59:39 <augur> well, batter is flour, with some other stuff, potentially egg, and often a liquid like milk
08:59:50 <augur> you can easily imagine adding some milk to egg for flavoring or consistency
08:59:54 <augur> or some flour similarly
09:00:00 <augur> but in small quantities
09:00:09 <augur> and still its a kind of fried egg, right
09:00:24 <augur> so when does it stop being fried egg
09:00:30 <augur> i like my pancakes very eggy
09:00:52 <augur> if i used slightly more egg, it would almost be hard to call pancakes
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09:01:13 <augur> when does it cross from egg stuff to batter stuff
09:01:14 <augur> who knows!
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11:38:43 <quintopia> i want to believe the reason xkcd has been sucking more than usual lately is that he's been spending most of his time working on this map...but given how much free time he must have, I'm not holding my breath.
11:44:23 <Slereah> Does he have a job?
11:44:38 <Slereah> Or does he just get internet money
12:13:46 <quintopia> He lives off of xkcd
12:14:08 <quintopia> this map is the sort of thing that would go great on a pictoblog!
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12:27:24 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: hi <-- yes?
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15:41:58 <alise> oh bloody hell, my g key is still broken
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15:49:05 * Phantom_Hoover looks at the map of Agora.
15:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> "COPPRO STRAIGHT" ← the very same?
15:56:15 <alise> yes.
15:56:17 <alise> that's new
15:56:27 <alise> i disapprove of the modernisation >_>
15:59:08 <pikhq> I DISAPPROVE OF MUTABILITY
16:00:44 * Phantom_Hoover has discovered that finite naturals in Coq are trickier than they first appear.
16:01:53 <alise> pikhq: FIX IT
16:01:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: finite naturals?
16:02:03 <alise> you mean |Fin n| = n?
16:02:09 <alise> it's easy
16:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I said "tricky", not "hard".
16:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Defining them is easy enough.
16:02:44 <alise> Inductive fin : nat -> Set := fz : forall n, fin n | fs : fin n -> fin (S n)
16:02:52 <alise> you can also define a function fin : nat -> Set
16:02:55 <alise> this is sometimes more useful
16:03:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, for that definition |fin n| = S n, but whatever.
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16:07:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: erm, is it?
16:07:47 <alise> fin 0 = {fz : fin 0}
16:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
16:07:55 <alise> fin 1 = {fz : fin 1, fs fz : fin 1}
16:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's irrelevant, though.
16:08:02 <alise> right
16:08:07 <alise> Inductive fin : nat -> Set := fz : forall n, fin (S n) | fs : fin n -> fin (S n)
16:08:10 <alise> that's how it's done, I forgot
16:08:27 <alise> cheater: how goes the AI :P
16:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater is writing an AI?
16:11:39 <cpressey> alise: last i saw it, it was http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g
16:12:11 <alise> cpressey: huh, did clog go out?
16:12:13 <alise> that's no in the logs
16:12:16 <alise> (not
16:12:32 <alise> **not
16:12:36 <alise> i disapprove of his silly fork ;)
16:13:04 <cpressey> alise: I AM CLOG NOW
16:13:08 <alise> although r = randint is cool
16:13:12 <alise>    Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(not r(0,2)and r(5,10))
16:13:19 <alise>    s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and not r(0,2)else w[v])
16:13:33 <cpressey> python is such an ick language for golf
16:13:38 <cpressey> all those spaces!
16:13:49 <alise> cpressey: that's why you do evil things!
16:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Like lambda abuse?
16:14:02 <alise>  s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
16:14:10 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36,81]*5+[37]*3+[35]*50+[33]
16:14:16 <cpressey> alise: your code is almost READABLE
16:14:16 <alise>  elif k=='q'and L and L+20<301:
16:14:16 <alise>   q=min(L,20);L+=q;P=max(P-q,0);D()
16:14:31 <alise> cpressey: okay then, tell me what this does
16:14:33 <alise>    s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and not r(0,2)else w[v])
16:14:49 <cpressey> hallu?
16:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I love in inconsistent spacing.
16:14:59 <alise> cpressey: I must have told you >__>
16:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> *the
16:15:12 <cpressey> alise: you di'nt :)
16:15:23 <alise> "not r(0,n-1)" for a 1 in n chance is awesome, though
16:15:29 <alise> in fact, i might define a function for that
16:16:04 <alise> u=lambda n:not r(0,n)
16:16:10 <alise> u(n) is 1 in (n+1) chance
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16:30:21 <alise> ha, my monsters move even when it isn't their turn.
16:36:02 <cpressey> Does lambdabot keep messages for us, too?
16:36:08 <alise> No.
16:36:17 <cpressey> <frownie>
16:36:50 <cpressey> I suppose we could save them as text files in HackEgo, but, notification.
16:37:52 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
16:37:52 <alise> 1408 vagrant.py
16:37:57 <alise> amazing how much you can do in so little code, isn't it?
16:38:42 <alise> cpressey: does hallu normally allow you to hallucinate yourself as being floor in roguelikes?
16:38:43 <alise> DIDN'T THINK SO
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16:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I can golf a shorter one by cheating.
16:39:43 <alise> What, by executing mine? :P
16:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> No, NetHack.
16:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> A full-featured roguelike in precisely 7 bytes of shell script!
16:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> (Assuming appropriate libraries are installed.)
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16:41:09 <cpressey> Yes, the nethack "library"
16:43:24 <Ilari> This tells something about IPv6 deployment status: http://www.mrp.net/IPv6_Survey.html (someone's comment "Un.. fucking.. believable."). Short summary: MAJOR FAIL.
16:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, perfectly reasonable.
16:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It's available for all major systems.
16:44:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I get errors when linking to it
16:44:56 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, you do with that kind of narrow-minded thinking.
16:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Who says library interfaces have to be through linking?
16:45:26 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I ALSO CANNOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO BORROW BOOKS FROM IT
16:49:54 <alise>  if k in'hyb':a-=1
16:49:54 <alise>  if k in'jbn':b+=1
16:49:54 <alise>  if k in'kyu':b-=1
16:49:54 <alise>  if k in'lun':a+=1
16:49:55 <alise> -------_>
16:49:58 <alise> *--------__>
16:49:59 <alise> *---------->
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16:50:01 <alise>  a+=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b+=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
16:50:07 <alise> BEHOLD THE CRAZY BOOLEAN ARITHMETIC
16:50:09 <alise> BEHOLD IT
16:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Is "False" too long?
16:50:39 <alise> Believe it or not, that actually works.
16:50:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hum?
16:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
16:50:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Ignore.
16:50:49 <alise> I don't have any explicit booleans there.
16:50:52 <alise> Not even in the old version/
16:50:54 <alise> *version.
16:51:05 <alise> In this case a and b are the new x and y we're moving to, and k is the key.
16:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought that was 'k' in 'lun'
16:51:11 <alise> No :P
16:51:15 <alise> Also, 0 would work instead of False.
16:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And hence a pointless way of writing "False".
16:51:24 <alise> This implements hjkl cardinals, and yubn diagonals.
16:51:30 <alise> In two arithmetic statements! Fuck yeah!
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16:59:49 <alise> HOLY SHIT THE QS BREED
17:00:24 <fizzie> cpressey: Maybe I should add message-passing to fungot, then.
17:00:24 <fungot> fizzie: the shit-talking between rounds has to stop. i can't come home and kill a spider. why don't you let us in the sega booth soon. does it have any kryptonite?
17:01:04 <fizzie> fungot: The Sega booth is full of kryptonite, in fact. Stop quoting entire sentences verbatim, you silly bot.
17:01:04 <fungot> fizzie: i didn't know where else to go.
17:03:37 <alise> ^style
17:03:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
17:03:45 <alise> aww, quoting it will just be quoting verbatim then :)
17:08:26 <fizzie> I'll try to retrain that model at some point.
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17:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Effing rewrite tactic.
17:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover> rewrite thing at 2.
17:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK
17:19:37 <Ilari> If that page is descriptive of IPv6, the IPv6 deployment plan in many organizations is probably looking like the disaster recovery plan at Dilbert's work...
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17:21:29 <cheater> alise
17:21:33 <cheater> have you seen my new version
17:21:41 <alise> cheater: i saw the one cpressey linked
17:21:47 <cheater> was that today
17:21:50 <Ilari> *soon look like
17:22:02 <alise> and yours is broken btw, monsters move even when it's not a turn
17:22:14 <cheater> yes, it's the one
17:22:28 <cheater> alise: what do you mean?
17:22:43 <cheater> "not a turn"?
17:22:47 <alise> bash into a wall
17:22:49 <alise> see monsters move
17:23:08 <cheater> yeah duh, why are you doing M() if bashing into a wall?
17:23:19 <cheater> you should have a return at the very top for that
17:23:23 <alise> because M() handles it
17:23:25 <alise> there's no M() any more, also
17:23:26 <cheater> yes
17:23:28 <alise> you're working on an older version
17:23:33 <cheater> well fix it
17:23:43 <cheater> it's a nice piece of code i added
17:23:46 <cheater> it has fuzzy ai!
17:23:54 <cheater> the monsters can even walk around obstacles!
17:23:57 <cpressey> Ilari: ... "plan"?
17:23:59 <alise> but i've almost written my own >_>
17:24:07 <cpressey> Ilari: JUST FILE A TICKET
17:24:08 <cheater> hello collaboration
17:24:11 <alise> (yours was part of an older version)
17:24:12 <cheater> :(
17:24:15 <alise> cheater: yeah well i stole some of your code
17:24:15 <alise> :P
17:24:21 <cheater> which
17:24:25 <alise> the actual loop
17:24:39 <cheater> with the AI code in it?
17:24:55 <cheater> with r()?
17:25:01 <cheater> and o()
17:25:03 <alise> well i stole r()
17:25:06 <alise> not o
17:25:09 <cheater> why not o?
17:25:14 <alise> the actual logic i couldn't understand so i couldn't make it run to me :)
17:25:17 <alise> so i didn't need o
17:25:26 <cheater> how could you not understand it?
17:25:30 <cheater> it's very simple
17:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, maybe "at" doesn't bother with nesting...
17:26:13 <cheater> it takes the position of the cell and the position of the player, calculates the vector between them, and then unitarizes that vector
17:26:19 <alise> cheater: well rather i didn't bother to
17:26:23 <alise> >__>
17:26:35 <cheater> then, it randomly flips some of the coordinates at a small probability
17:26:37 <cheater> it's so simple
17:26:39 <cheater> it's a one-liner
17:26:47 <alise> cheater: last i saw, it actually moves to (0,0)
17:26:55 <cheater> you hadn't looked at the new one
17:26:56 <cheater> it's nicer
17:27:06 <cheater> also i made the line mirror-symmetric (kinda..)
17:27:42 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That code is a real at's nest.
17:28:10 <cheater> i'm not sure why malbolge is in the topic
17:28:11 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans cpressey --==\#/
17:28:15 <alise> cheater: the new one had some gold monster stuff which i wasn't sure i approved of >_>
17:28:24 <cheater> alise: of course you approve of it
17:28:29 <cheater> alise: think about it, monsters lvling up
17:28:43 <cheater> alise: this means you have to kill monsters quickly otherwise they'll level up too far
17:28:46 <cheater> sort of like in osmos
17:28:47 <cheater> !
17:28:52 <cheater> makes you think hard
17:28:52 <alise> maybe in Super Lotsa Added Stuff Vagrant
17:28:56 <alise> slasv
17:29:00 <cheater> :|
17:29:22 <cheater> :<
17:29:30 <cheater> you could have made that switchable instead
17:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Stuff: Lots Added to Vagrant.
17:29:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Slav.
17:29:39 <alise> it's golfed code!!
17:29:43 <cheater> yes
17:29:51 <cheater> and if it gets parametrized it's nicer
17:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Golf maintainability.
17:31:16 <cheater> alise: i feel rejected
17:31:18 <cheater> :,
17:31:47 * Phantom_Hoover → stuff
17:32:09 <alise> cheater: you don't understand what golfing is :P
17:32:20 <cheater> ???????????
17:32:25 <cheater> minifying
17:32:54 <alise> cheater: i probably will add them
17:33:08 <cheater> but it won't be my code then
17:33:10 <cheater> ;,<
17:34:25 <alise> bah! :P
17:34:27 <alise> your code has spacse
17:34:28 <alise> *spaces
17:34:38 <alise> my code has breeding Qs
17:34:39 <alise> oh i see why
17:34:44 <alise>     r,i,t,u=map(w.get,[(f,e),(d,e),(f,c),(d,c)])
17:34:44 <alise>     if r==32:q[f,e]=81
17:34:44 <alise>     if i==32:q[d,e]=81
17:34:44 <alise>     if t==32:q[f,c]=81
17:34:44 <alise>     else:q[d,c]=81
17:34:47 <alise> should be elif
17:34:48 <alise> s
17:35:05 <cheater> my code doesn't have spaces in the new version
17:35:17 <cheater> it was just proof of concept OK????????????////////////
17:35:24 <alise> i'll consider it >_________________________>
17:35:53 <cheater> ; ;
17:38:05 <alise> wow now the monsters run away from me
17:38:09 <alise> come back!
17:39:06 <alise> hmm i need a goto
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17:46:48 <quintopia> you should parameterize monster motion too.  some come towards you, some run away, and some wander aimlessly
17:47:05 <cheater> you obviously hadn't seen the data structure
17:47:28 <quintopia> what would take more code but be cooler is if they came toward you only if you've been sitting still too long, like a cat sneaking up on you.
17:47:47 <quintopia> but if you go towards them, they run away
17:48:06 <quintopia> imagine a room full of those!
17:48:43 <quintopia> especially if they have camoflauge!  and only appear when they move!
17:48:45 <cheater> easily imagined.
17:50:28 <alise> there are no rooms
17:50:32 <alise> well, apart from emergent ones.
17:50:33 <alise> brb
17:50:59 <quintopia> now that's an idea...
17:51:08 <quintopia> monsters as walls
17:51:41 <quintopia> they strive to stay close to one another, and only move if they can get closer to the player without breaking formation, or if they aren't in formation yet.
17:51:50 <quintopia> so the walls literally close in!
17:51:54 <quintopia> weeoo
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18:16:09 <oerjan> <cpressey> Does lambdabot keep messages for us, too?
18:16:13 <oerjan> it used to
18:16:21 <oerjan> @help tell
18:16:21 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
18:17:27 <oerjan> @tell cpressey Sure it does!
18:17:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:18:20 <oerjan> there is also MemoServ
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18:44:16 <cpressey> lambdabot: hi there
18:44:39 <olsner> omg, we have a lambdabot now?
18:44:43 <olsner> @botsnack
18:44:44 <lambdabot> :)
18:44:47 <olsner> @botslap
18:44:48 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
18:45:22 <oerjan> cpressey: erm why didn't it tell you :(
18:46:15 <olsner> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- thor's mother -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(*2))$1
18:46:16 <lambdabot>   [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
18:46:18 <oerjan> cpressey: try saying something without lambdabot: in front
18:46:27 <cpressey> ok
18:46:27 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:46:31 <cpressey> indeed
18:46:40 <cpressey> @messages
18:46:40 <lambdabot> oerjan said 29m 13s ago: Sure it does!
18:47:14 <oerjan> olsner: wtf
18:47:57 <olsner> oerjan: I wrote that :D
18:48:48 <olsner> not the thor's mother comment though, I think it started out with just (:[]) in the middle... a few people've edited the wiki page afterwards
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18:51:32 <olsner> aha, the first version on that wiki page says {- OH MY GOD IT'S A COMMENT!!! -} instead, that'd be from me then
18:53:33 <cpressey> > :t []
18:53:34 <lambdabot>   <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
18:54:03 <olsner> :t []
18:54:04 <lambdabot> forall a. [a]
18:54:34 <olsner> the > is only for evaluating expressions
18:54:52 <cpressey> i see
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18:55:33 <olsner> but you can probably enter ill-typed expressions and use the error message to see the type if you want to :D
18:55:57 <oerjan> you can do that to get fixities
18:56:03 <oerjan> > (0$0+)
18:56:04 <lambdabot>   The operator `GHC.Num.+' [infixl 6] of a section
18:56:04 <lambdabot>      must have lower prece...
18:56:17 <cpressey> > [1,2>3]
18:56:18 <lambdabot>   No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Bool.Bool)
18:56:18 <lambdabot>    arising from the literal `1'...
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18:57:05 <cpressey> I suppose 2<3 would have been a nicer fake typo
18:57:20 <cpressey> (on my AMERICAN keyboard)
18:57:25 * cpressey waves a little flag
19:01:07 <Gregor> AMERICAN KEYBOARD OF JESUS
19:01:19 <olsner> is it the *keyboard* or the *layout* that's american?
19:01:38 <cpressey> good point.  the keyboard itself is probably chinese.
19:01:49 <olsner> many Model M's are made in ireland iirc
19:02:04 <cpressey> i say this only on the basis of odds.
19:02:34 * cpressey peeks under
19:02:46 <cpressey> yeah, made in china.
19:03:18 <Gregor> But everything in America is made in China.
19:03:27 <olsner> communist keyboard!
19:03:32 <cpressey> Gregor: that's why i liked those odds.
19:03:32 <Gregor> So that's as American as it can be.
19:05:05 <cpressey> :t IO Int
19:05:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `IO'
19:05:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Int'
19:05:48 <cpressey> :t getChar
19:05:49 <lambdabot> IO Char
19:08:06 <cpressey> :t undefined
19:08:07 <lambdabot> forall a. a
19:08:33 <olsner> so... whence the lambdabot?
19:08:46 <cpressey> :t Just undefined
19:08:47 <lambdabot> forall a. Maybe a
19:08:51 <olsner> I don't think I've seen her in here before
19:08:52 <quintopia> you mean, from whence?
19:09:04 <olsner> quintopia: maybe :)
19:09:08 <alise> olsner: used to
19:09:16 <alise> got her back
19:10:14 <olsner> "From whence has a strong literary precedent, appearing in Shakespeare and the King James Bible as well as in the writings of numerous Victorian-era writers. In recent times, however, it has been criticized as redundant by usage commentators."
19:10:48 <quintopia> damn those usage commentators
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19:11:15 <cpressey> :t >=>
19:11:16 <lambdabot> parse error on input `>=>'
19:11:21 <Gregor> From whence do thy usage commentators come, olsner?
19:11:22 <cpressey> :t '>=>'
19:11:23 <lambdabot>     lexical error in string/character literal at character '='
19:11:28 <cpressey> :t (>=>)
19:11:29 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
19:11:38 <olsner> Gregor: *whence, the from is redundant :P
19:11:44 <cpressey> :t ">=>" -- for completeness
19:11:45 <lambdabot> [Char]
19:11:55 <quintopia> olsner is clearly the usage commentator
19:11:59 <Gregor> olsner: Your face is redundant, but you don't see me complaining.
19:12:05 * quintopia makes mashed commentaters
19:12:16 <cpressey> wait, "* -> *"?  that's a new one on me
19:12:44 <Gregor> "This function does some shit"
19:12:47 <olsner> cpressey: it's a kind
19:12:51 <cpressey> ah
19:13:22 <olsner> very simplified, '*' is any normal type
19:13:35 <olsner> there's also #, ## and ?
19:14:03 <olsner> (in ghc anyway)
19:14:03 <cpressey> so * -> * is the kind of all one-argument functions?
19:14:10 <cpressey> well, "one argument" pfft
19:14:15 <olsner> one-argument type constructors
19:14:23 <cpressey> right
19:15:10 <cpressey> i was going to say constructors, but it's the type constructor that has a kind, yeah
19:16:22 <olsner> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/IntermediateTypes has a neat little ascii diagram of the kinds
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19:18:44 <olsner> constructors also have kinds, but I think they'd all just be *
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19:23:28 <cpressey> tail(recursion).
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19:45:37 <SgeoN1> Hello. Showing off #esoteric again
19:45:38 <cpressey> T=tail(recursion(T)).
19:45:55 <fizzie> SgeoN1: Oh no, must we be amusing now?
19:46:13 <olsner> fizzie: amuse! amuse!
19:46:15 <cpressey> I didn't even see SgeoN1 when I typed that.  Don't interpret it as an attempt to be amusing.
19:46:45 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something amusing!
19:46:45 <fungot> fizzie: fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord.
19:46:53 <fizzie> ...
19:46:56 <olsner> boring
19:47:11 <olsner> SgeoN1: see - utterly boring.
19:48:02 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a disappointment sometimes.
19:48:03 <fungot> fizzie: i can do with a bagpipe?) for fnord macros and expansion.)
19:54:26 <SgeoN1> No longer showing off #esoteric
19:54:45 <olsner> *phew*
19:55:03 <fizzie> SgeoN1: You should warn us in advance that we'd clean the channel up a bit, be more presentable.
19:55:32 <cheater99> cogito ergo dei
19:56:33 <cheater99> oh hi
19:56:36 <yorick> cheater99: wtf
19:56:46 <cheater99> ?
19:56:47 <cheater99> what?
19:56:57 <yorick> cheater99: that doesn't even have a verb!
19:57:06 <yorick> well it does
19:57:11 <yorick> but it makes no sense
19:57:26 <cpressey> fnord is the verb
19:57:28 <cheater99> poor yorick.
19:57:32 <yorick> I think that would need at least two verbs
19:57:56 <olsner> maybe latin doesn't need all the redundant verbs
19:59:07 <yorick> olsner: but there's nothing redundant anything
19:59:10 <yorick> about*
19:59:25 <yorick> "cogito ergo dei" <-- it lacks a second verb and puts a noun instead :/
20:00:02 <olsner> well, then it's just missing a copula, right? do you *really* need to put that down every time?
20:01:17 <yorick> how would that help?
20:01:54 <cheater99> you need to get laid
20:03:47 <fizzie> How would *that* help?
20:04:00 <olsner> how *would* that help?
20:05:06 <fizzie> How would that *help*?
20:05:14 <yorick> *How* would that help?
20:05:27 <olsner> *how* would *that* help?
20:05:35 <yorick> how *would* that *help*
20:05:42 <yorick> ?
20:05:53 * yorick c-c-combo breaker!
20:05:57 <cheater99> haha u loze.
20:06:00 <fizzie> Wow, hud that yelp.
20:06:16 <yorick> cheater99: true, but how would *that* help? :)
20:07:11 <olsner> well, let's just say that obviously *someone* is in need of a latin grammar lesson
20:07:31 <yorick> and it *might* just be me :/
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20:15:55 * olsner watches the waves as they propagate around his abdomen
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20:20:30 <cheater99> alise: hi
20:20:34 <cheater99> alise: how are yoouuu
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20:36:33 <olsner> speaking of edible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_dormouse
20:37:42 <olsner> but it was probably a long time ago you were discussing that
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20:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does Coq MOCK me?
20:41:37 <olsner> ... and why does Moq COCK you?
20:41:50 <olsner> that makes no sense though
20:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I just want to rewrite an expression, and it refuses to do so for no obvious reason.
20:51:25 <yorick> aww poor edible dormice
20:51:37 <yorick> named after their edibility
20:52:10 <olsner> much unlike the great tortoises that were so edible no-one bothered to give them a proper name
20:52:22 <olsner> for a couple of hundred years anyway
21:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Stephen Wolfram's ego vs. that of the Apprentice candidates.
21:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is bigger?
21:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> There's only one way to find out!
21:01:40 <olsner> this is probably like comparing infinities
21:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> FIGHT
21:02:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, a TV Burp fight is the standard mechanism of comparing infinities.
21:02:11 <olsner> the question is, which infinity has the largest cardinality
21:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I like |N|, and I like |R|. But which is bigger? There's only one way to find out! FIGHT!
21:05:57 <olsner> hmm, how was it this infinity thing worked again? R can burp at least |N| for every |N|, and thus it's bigger?
21:06:46 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I have the solution for your Coq problem.
21:07:00 <cpressey> DOUBLE REWRITE!!!
21:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no...
21:07:28 <olsner> cpressey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w
21:07:29 <alise> YES
21:07:41 <alise> olsner: p, sure he knows
21:07:44 <alise> *p.
21:08:19 <olsner> DABBURU KOMPAIRU
21:09:20 <cpressey> DABBURU REARAITU
21:13:35 <cheater99> how the fuck do you use the triplet mode on a tb 303
21:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, anyway, my problem is basically that I can't right-rewrite then left-rewrite.
21:15:00 <alise> cpressey doesn't know Coq
21:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I know this.
21:17:41 <alise> back, finally
21:17:46 <alise> cheater99: i am just fine thank you
21:18:08 <cheater99> very well, because i am not
21:18:12 <alise> why not
21:18:14 <alise> can i just say that vagrant's code is awesome
21:18:16 <cheater99> i can't figure out how to program this thing
21:18:22 <cheater99> you should download the manual
21:18:27 <cheater99> it's like the fucking intercal manual
21:18:32 <alise> try smiling
21:18:35 <cheater99> except it doesn't make sense
21:18:38 <cheater99> i'm smiling
21:18:38 <cheater99> !
21:19:04 * cheater99 gives alise a hug for lightening up his day.
21:19:10 <cheater99> so yes
21:19:12 <cheater99> the manual sucks
21:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> For what?
21:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vagrant?
21:20:06 <alise> no
21:20:10 <alise> for this thing cheater99 is using
21:20:37 <alise> can you set a global exception handler in python?
21:21:52 <alise> aha
21:21:54 <alise> sys.excepthook
21:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What's he using?
21:24:40 <cheater99> alise: just put everything in a try/catch.
21:25:01 <alise> cheater99: no, that'd fuck up the indentation
21:25:03 <alise> i have solved it
21:25:08 <alise> [[
21:25:13 <alise> import sys
21:25:13 <alise> def hook(t,v,b):endwin();sys.__excepthook__(t,v,b)
21:25:14 <alise> sys.excepthook=hook
21:25:14 <alise> execfile('vagrant.py')
21:25:14 <alise> ]]
21:25:15 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: a drum machine, I gather?
21:25:17 <alise> this is debug.py
21:25:30 <alise> and yes, it is evil to use endwin like that without importing it myself but I DON'T CARE
21:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what, Coq?
21:25:44 <alise> ...
21:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, cheater99's thing?
21:25:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: No, Coq is a theorem prover.
21:26:31 <cpressey> Confusing drum machines and theorem provers.  Just another wonderful service provided by your local #esoteric.
21:26:45 <cpressey> Well, not local exactly.
21:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, drum machine as in machine which makes drum noises?
21:27:52 <alise> HEY cheater99 DEBUG MY AI CODE :P
21:28:09 <cpressey> I thought it was called a TR-303...  maybe this is another model
21:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> TB-303?
21:29:08 <yorick> new SGU is notably better than previous ep
21:29:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> SGU is the Voyager of Stargate, yes?
21:30:19 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Where Voyager is the Phantom Menace of Star Trek.
21:31:00 <yorick> yes
21:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, Randall Munroe hasn't rehashed Online Communities, has he?
21:33:05 <olsner> lunch conversation indicates he has
21:34:44 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: he has
21:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I HAD A GOOD IDEA ONCE AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT
21:36:08 <alise> cheater: bah, Q with p=0 doesn't work :(
21:37:26 <cheater99> cpressey: it's actually a bass synthesizer.
21:37:45 <cheater99> alise: p=what?
21:37:53 <alise> Q() function
21:37:58 <alise> p is second parameter (wait for response or not)
21:38:02 <cheater99> Q() is just an echo
21:38:03 <cheater99> isn't it
21:38:03 <alise> Q(foo), if done before D(), just gets wiped out
21:38:06 <cheater99> oh ok
21:38:07 <alise> by the status line
21:38:11 <alise> whereas, as it's a message function
21:38:12 <alise> it should persist
21:38:16 <alise> i'm trying to fix it right now
21:38:38 <cheater99> the great thing about this thing is
21:38:41 <cheater99> it has a built in sequencer
21:38:47 <cheater99> it's light and small and battery operated
21:38:56 <cheater99> which means you can take it with you to the toilet
21:39:00 <alise> cheater99: does your Q work??
21:39:07 <cheater99> i don't know
21:39:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:39:21 <cheater99> i abandoned the project after a frosty rejection from the core team
21:39:22 <alise> hmm mine is *seriously* fucked up
21:39:28 <alise> oic
21:39:28 <cheater99> :-|
21:39:32 <alise> i fixed it
21:39:36 <alise> cheater99: i was just joking y'know.
21:39:40 -!- augur has joined.
21:39:46 <cheater99> </3 :(
21:39:53 <cheater99> u brk my hrt
21:39:59 <alise> HOW THE FUCK DID THEY OBLITERATE EACH OTHER
21:39:59 <cheater99> alise: let's golf chat
21:40:20 <alise> oh i see
21:40:24 <alise> they wipe everyone out indiscriminately
21:40:29 <cheater99> hw th fk dd thy obltr8 e/o
21:41:01 <cheater99> alise: you need the masking array, otherwise you're fuck'd
21:41:13 <cheater99> i mean,
21:41:27 <cheater99> u nd d makin arry, or ur fkd
21:41:37 <cheater99> *maskin
21:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Randy's pictoblog really needs to be made.
21:42:11 <alise> cheater99: i have a masking array.
21:42:14 <alise> dood.
21:42:24 <cheater99> how do you know i'm a dood?
21:42:33 <cheater99> i could be a girl
21:42:34 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:42:36 <alise> i have managed to break even normal Q awesome.
21:42:36 <cheater99> or a boy
21:42:39 <cheater99> or something else.
21:42:55 <olsner> dood applies regardless
21:43:30 <alise> HOW ARE THEY ALL FLOCKING TO THE CENTRE I SPECIFIED ME AS THE TARGET
21:43:38 <yorick> cheater99: no one in this channel is a girl
21:43:45 <yorick> doesn't happen.
21:43:57 <alise> yorick: did, about four times IIRC
21:44:01 <alise> (I worked it out once)
21:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> A whole 4??
21:44:50 <alise> oh so that's what i did
21:44:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> At once or over the entire lifetime?
21:47:20 <alise> yay it works now
21:47:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: lifetime
21:47:29 -!- aschueler has joined.
21:47:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how'd you come to that figure?
21:47:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: counting all the females I know to have been in here
21:48:43 <Vorpal> alise, wtf at rerunning the map thing. It was quite nice first time, and redoing it could work, just not as a comic, maybe something to post on his blog or such
21:48:56 <alise> it's not a comic, it's a picto-blo
21:48:57 <alise> *blog
21:49:01 <Vorpal> heh
21:49:13 <Vorpal> alise, but I like the lifeboats marked in that picture
21:49:19 <Vorpal> leaving digg and going for reddit
21:49:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Where's Digg, approximately?
21:51:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a bit above  IRC Isles
21:52:00 <Vorpal> s/  / /
21:52:03 * alise realises that "not r(0,2)" is longer than "r(0,2)==0", cries
21:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it has ActiveWorlds on it.
21:52:15 <alise>    Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(0==r(0,2)and r(5,10))
21:52:18 <alise> Guess why the 0 comes first.
21:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Because of the and.
21:52:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yep :D so I can have the )
21:52:42 <alise> so i can avoid a space
21:53:14 <Sgeo> o.O awesome!
21:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's a minuscule appendix to Second Life.
21:55:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you can't find irc isles, it is next to usenet.
21:55:38 <Sgeo> It looks a bit big, tbh
21:55:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where is second life?
21:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Usenet is slightly smaller than IRC on that map, but I've already found it.
21:56:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, next to MMO Isle.
21:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> in the Gulf of Lag.
21:56:36 <Vorpal> ah
21:56:37 <Vorpal> there
21:56:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you spot the invasion fleet btw?
21:56:54 <Vorpal> (not the same as the lifeboats)
21:57:04 <cheater99> jesus, why is gmail so sluggish
21:57:32 <cpressey> alise: females in here intentionally, or including those who wander in here for other reasons?
21:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no.
21:57:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and is "subspace" just a star trek reference, or some game? It is next to MMO Isle, opposite to second life
21:58:24 <cheater99> wait
21:58:28 <cheater99> alise is not female????
21:58:39 <cpressey> alise: Oh and golf your user messages.  Q('Mm!') should suffice.
21:58:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, don't know, Where's the fleet?
21:58:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, next to google talk
21:59:05 <cpressey> Q('Gak!') for poison.
21:59:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is close to skype
21:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, who is invading whom?
21:59:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know
22:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd assume Google Talk is the invader, but whatever.
22:00:37 <alise> cpressey: intentionally
22:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Subspace seems to be a mumorpeger per Google
22:00:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is "kayne's isle of sadness", in whaler sound next to google talk
22:00:44 <alise> Also, no golfing messages :P
22:00:50 <alise> Playable roguelike, tiny code.
22:00:54 <cheater99> alise: btw
22:00:55 * alise is typing from his replacement keyboard...
22:00:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mumorpeger eh? *googles wtf that is*
22:00:58 <alise> Quite nice for a Logitech.
22:01:03 <alise> "Slim" but not hopelessly so, and a nice tactile action.
22:01:03 <cheater99> alise: have you ever done anything with uC's?
22:01:09 <alise> cheater99: expand uC
22:01:12 <cheater99> alise: or vhdl?
22:01:13 <Vorpal> Urban Dictionary: mumorpeger
22:01:13 <Vorpal> A different way to say MMORPG. (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game)
22:01:14 <Vorpal> ah
22:01:25 <cheater99> alise: microcontroller.
22:01:35 <cpressey> alise: baudot
22:01:40 <alise> cheater99: no, but sounds fun
22:01:54 <cheater99> i think fpga could be fun 4 u
22:01:59 <cheater99> because it's like gate arrays
22:02:03 <cheater99> that can modify themselves on the fly
22:02:08 <cheater99> and it's an important part of the process
22:02:08 <Vorpal> cheater99, what does uC stand for? I mean it doesn't really expand to microcontroller
22:02:13 <cheater99> so, game of life, in hardware
22:02:15 <cheater99> pretty much
22:02:15 <Phantom_Hoover> We know what FPGAs are.
22:02:16 <Vorpal> cheater99, µC would make some sort of sense
22:02:18 <Vorpal> but not uC
22:02:22 <cpressey> cheater99: for certain values of "fly"
22:02:23 <alise> The quick brown fox jumpwedover my bix sphynx of qwertz.
22:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, O.o
22:02:25 <cheater99> Vorpal: u suck
22:02:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm?
22:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Do tell us a method of typing mu easily.
22:02:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, easy: altgr-m
22:03:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
22:03:10 <cpressey> Vorpal: that just makes Outlook pop up!
22:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AltGr is stupid, but anyway...
22:03:12 <Vorpal> I believe that will work on US international too
22:03:16 <cheater99> i hate you, gmail
22:03:19 <Vorpal> just not US
22:03:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, what?
22:04:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why is altgr stupid?
22:04:07 <Vorpal> it is just ISO level 3 shift
22:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just... illogical.
22:04:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay, why is it illogical?
22:04:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they key bindings on it? To some extent yes.
22:04:51 <Phantom_Hoover> AG-m -> µ, AG-d → ð, AG-p → þ
22:04:54 <Vorpal> you could repmap them
22:05:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ð makes sense for icelandic iirc?
22:05:19 <Vorpal> and the þ one *looks* similar
22:05:24 <Vorpal> like a p kind of
22:05:36 <cpressey> Vorpal: PowerShell
22:05:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and µ is pronounced "mu" starting with m
22:05:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, I don't know for windows, do tell me if you find how to type µ there
22:05:56 <cpressey> Huh, I can't Alt+252 to get those gnarly chars
22:06:00 <Vorpal> I'm on linux so
22:06:02 <cpressey> what kind of PowerShell is that
22:06:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AG-l → ł, AG-f → đ
22:06:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, "power(less)shell" :P
22:06:20 <Phantom_Hoover> SUCH WIT
22:06:58 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:16 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:07:35 -!- wareya has joined.
22:07:51 -!- alise has joined.
22:08:34 * pikhq can has 2001:1938:81:169::2 !
22:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't look like it...
22:09:21 * pikhq mutters
22:09:42 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit).
22:09:48 <pikhq> I can ping over IPv6... ::1 and 2001:1938:81:169::1.
22:10:30 <pikhq> So the tunnel's up and... Nothing's being forwarded?
22:11:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, sixxs?
22:11:27 <pikhq> Yup.
22:11:44 <Vorpal> just the ::1 and ::2 pattern was familiar
22:11:53 <pikhq> And my IPv6 routing table seems to be set right.
22:12:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, aiccu?
22:12:06 <pikhq> Yup.
22:12:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was a PITA under gentoo
22:12:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, works like a charm under arch
22:12:29 <pikhq> emerge aiccu;/etc/init.d/aiccu start
22:12:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, can you read the text in the dark area on the youtube island?
22:12:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I can't figure out what it says
22:12:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but getting it actually working
22:12:51 <Vorpal> I meant
22:12:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, let me check old /etc stuff
22:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Functional eyes to the rescue!
22:13:07 <pikhq> It's definitely running and I'm definitely getting IPv6 packets going through the link.
22:13:14 <cpressey> from future import ipv6
22:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> OK Go bay?
22:13:28 <cpressey> __, __, __
22:13:31 <pikhq> It's just not *routing* anything from there.
22:13:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, msg?
22:14:19 -!- alise has joined.
22:14:30 <alise> How is one meant to use a laptop on a computer stand?
22:14:35 <alise> The screen is too small!
22:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, how long will it be until ISPs actually start using IPv6?
22:15:44 <alise> a few already do
22:16:17 <fizzie> Mine's been doing native end-user v6 for at least three years now.
22:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: people who say "so-called" when they mean to indicate inaccuracy.
22:17:16 <alise> Things that annoy me: People who get annoyed by too many things.
22:17:25 <alise> Flaw of this keyboard: The spacebar is curved! Why?!
22:17:33 <cpressey> this so-called keyboard
22:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things.
22:18:14 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> OK Go bay? <-- hm, any clue what that refers to?
22:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The band?
22:18:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, eh, okay?
22:18:33 <Vorpal> whatever
22:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Of the Rube Goldberg video and the treadmills?
22:18:47 <Phantom_Hoover> von Neumann machine video.
22:18:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It must be done.
22:19:23 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things.
22:19:31 <alise> ditto, but mentioning them all is really not required :p
22:19:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I rate the probability that Vorpal knows who OK Go are as something like zero.
22:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I rate it as less than zero.
22:20:12 <alise> "if this is true, everything else is LESS THAN FALSE"
22:20:53 <pikhq> \o/
22:20:55 <pikhq> IPv6.
22:21:07 <alise> IPv6, it's like IPv4 except now DNS is doubly required!
22:21:36 <pikhq> Eh, running DNS on localhost; not a big deal.
22:21:42 <cpressey> DOUBLE RESOLVE!!!
22:21:52 <alise> (the rube goldberg machine video if anyone hasn't seen it, i hadn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w)
22:21:58 <alise> awesome.
22:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, P(Vorpal knows about OK Go \/ the Pope's a Catholic) = 0
22:23:00 <alise> That's because P(the Pope's a Catholic) = 0
22:27:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:28:32 <quintopia> alise: link the dogs video too.  it's my second favorite.
22:28:47 <cpressey> because he no longer has his magic hat
22:29:21 * quintopia steals back the Pope's hat from cpressey
22:29:40 <alise> quintopia: that one's awesome too (and has better music)
22:29:58 <alise> "OK Go? Yeah, that's the video guys who make their own soundtrack, right?"
22:30:14 <Sgeo> I thought \/ was or
22:30:20 <Sgeo> Oh, hm
22:30:36 <alise> it is
22:30:37 <Sgeo> I guess that's what alise's P(the Pope's a Catholic) = 0 is pointing out
22:30:48 <alise> no, that was just a random joke
22:31:20 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHlJODYBLKs to satisfy quintopia
22:32:50 <cpressey> so are imported modules like dynamically scoped in Python?
22:34:13 <cpressey> no that's not right
22:34:19 <cpressey> stupidest scope rules ever
22:34:31 * alise watches as his Mac does Game of Life
22:34:32 <alise> Screensaver!
22:34:40 <Sgeo> hmm?
22:35:32 <alise> GoL is my Mac's screensaver.
22:35:56 <Sgeo> I meant @ cpressey
22:37:09 <cpressey> Sgeo: an example needs at least 3 files so is hard to give
22:37:49 <cpressey> if a and b both import common, and a changes common.foo and calls something in b, and the thing in b looks at common.foo, it sees the change that a made
22:38:04 <cpressey> which is fine
22:38:10 <cpressey> but it doesn't always seem to happen
22:38:12 <Sgeo> I used that to do project-global variables in PSOX >.>
22:38:14 <cpressey> there is something else going on
22:39:05 <cpressey> oh wait i bet it is
22:39:37 <quintopia> alise: you has a Mac? o.o
22:39:55 <quintopia> you should make a generalized vant screensaver.
22:40:07 <alise> quintopia: (1) yes, since 2006; (2) what's vant?
22:40:34 <quintopia> the clas of automata in which langton's ant falls
22:40:38 <alise> mmf, this keyboard needs the numpad lobbing off, it's great though
22:40:57 <Vorpal> <cpressey> DOUBLE RESOLVE!!! <-- do you have the resolve required to implement this?
22:41:28 <Sgeo> WHat's wrong with the numpad?
22:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It's EEEVVVILLLL
22:43:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how can I get more nerd cred than having Life as my screensaver?
22:44:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I like electricsheep, too, so changing it will need a good reason.
22:44:06 <Sgeo> turing machine?
22:44:07 <cpressey> re py, i was confused by two modules with the same name in different packages.
22:44:11 <cpressey> still worst scoping EVAR
22:44:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have no screensaver on this box.
22:44:51 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: Mersenne Search...
22:44:51 <alise> The mac just runs a randomised Game of Life with one pixel per cell.
22:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But how will you save your screen?
22:44:54 <alise> Surprisingly fast, too.
22:44:57 <alise> About 100 gens/sec.
22:45:01 <alise> A bit less after a while; 95 or so.
22:45:05 <alise> Starts at like 125.
22:45:39 <quintopia> that's silly
22:45:50 <quintopia> should be able to set the speed
22:46:06 <quintopia> i like to run around 10000gens/sec...
22:46:10 <quintopia> <3 hashlife
22:46:42 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: run GoL as your screensaver, 1 cell per pixel, with Caterpillar as the default pattern
22:46:47 <quintopia> SUPER AWESOME CRED
22:47:06 <alise> quintopia: it's 1680x1050
22:47:10 <alise> and a screensaver
22:47:12 <alise> it shouldn't be too fast
22:47:18 <alise> also:
22:47:22 <alise> hashlife is rubbish for viewing things interactively
22:47:29 <alise> since different areas are on different generations
22:47:57 <alise> ohh that's what i did wrong
22:48:07 <quintopia> it's not rubbish for watching Caterpillar.  Phantom_Hoover: if you do that, it should automatically scroll upwards to follow it.
22:48:27 <quintopia> alise: 1680x1050 is not quite enough to fit entire caterpillar sideways is it :/
22:48:37 <alise> lawl
22:48:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I saw one that cycled through a bunch of nerdly pursuits, including kite-and-dart tiling the screen
22:49:00 <cpressey> That's more nerd crud than I can handle
22:49:04 <cpressey> *cred
22:49:17 <cpressey> (or *did* I...?)
22:50:23 <quintopia> oh, another neat SS would be one where it zooms into a single random pixel on the last desktop/screen you had open when it kicked it, and that pixel contains an entire color-shifted copy of the original screen in it...recursive zooming forever
22:50:42 <quintopia> not much nerd cred for that tho.  it'd just look cool.
22:50:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:51:00 <alise> it'd become solid, though
22:51:29 <quintopia> you could fudge it
22:51:38 <quintopia> slowly remove the color shifting as you zoom or something
22:54:12 <cpressey> hg revert --all
22:54:52 <cpressey> PowerShell continues to disappoint me.  You're all still here.
22:57:21 <alise> cheater: can I hire you as my AI consultant? I have a working framework for it now >__>
23:01:29 <alise> http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2010/10/the-ly-domain-space-to-be-considered-unsafe/ Using domains in the TLDs of countries you can't trust: surprisingly, a bad idea! trust
23:01:37 <alise> tl;dr use .ly, follow sharia law
23:08:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:16:05 <Sgeo> The past that we shared / Lost to the Waves / My journey here / a lifetime ago / and all that I was / is lost, to the waves
23:16:40 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
23:17:16 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:17:38 <Sgeo> Got a lyrics wrong :/
23:17:42 <Sgeo> "The past but a shade"
23:17:46 <Sgeo> That makes more sense
23:26:33 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:31:05 <alise> Maybe I should start quoting random lyrics!
23:31:21 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:34:23 <oerjan> * olsner watches the waves as they propagate around his abdomen <-- wait were you ircing in the bathtub or something?
23:39:18 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, Randall Munroe hasn't rehashed Online Communities, has he?
23:39:30 <oerjan> Sgeo will be happy that i noticed Active Worlds in there
23:39:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:44:09 <oerjan> (also i learned something new from the hovertext today)
23:47:05 <oerjan> <cheater99> i could be a girl <-- at this point i wouldn't believe it if you claimed to be
23:47:30 <oerjan> just my impression
23:50:15 <alise> P(cheater99 is a girl) = minuscule
23:50:16 <alise> :P
23:51:08 <oerjan> <cheater99> alise is not female???? <-- i am almost sure this has been pointed out to you before
23:51:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:52:21 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and is "subspace" just a star trek reference, or some game? It is next to MMO Isle, opposite to second life
23:52:27 <oerjan> hm i wondered about that too
23:53:24 <alise> subspace is used in like everything
23:53:35 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(video_game) but somehow I *doubt*
23:53:49 <oerjan> yeah that's the closest i found too
23:54:05 <Sgeo> It has to be under the water for some reason
23:54:07 <oerjan> it's an MMO, so...
23:55:15 <oerjan> i am assuming it's not the record label :D
23:55:47 <oerjan> well since it _is_ next to MMO isle i guess it's pretty clear
23:56:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:17 <oerjan> > ['a'..'z'] \\ (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick brown fox jumpwedover my bix sphynx of qwertz."
23:58:18 <lambdabot>   "agl"
23:58:23 <oerjan> FAIL
23:59:05 <Sgeo> > (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick brown fox jumpwedover my bix sphynx of qwertz."
23:59:06 <lambdabot>   " .bcdefhijkmnopqrstuvwxyz"
23:59:42 <alise> cheater: how much to have you consult on AI??

2010-10-07:

00:00:09 <Sgeo> > ['a'..'z'] \\ (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick, yet lazy brown fox jumpwedover my bix, doglike sphynx of qwertz."
00:00:10 <lambdabot>   ""
00:00:53 <alise> oerjan: that was me testing my new keyboard :D
00:00:59 <oerjan> ok
00:01:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: "yet" is redundant
00:01:10 <alise> a blend of jackdaws love... and the quick brown... obvs
00:01:37 <Sgeo> oerjan, letterly, sure, but not semantically
00:06:04 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:Sprites.GIF Sherby Tepu
00:06:18 <oerjan> <alise> Things that annoy me: People who get annoyed by too many things.
00:06:30 <oerjan> reminds me of a calvin & hobbes cartoon
00:07:24 <oerjan> (calvin makes a list of things that annoy him, and hobbes suggests "negative people".  or something like that.)
00:09:05 <oerjan> alas i read it in norwegian so even if it were on the internet it'd probably be hard to find)
00:09:08 <oerjan> *-)
00:09:45 <pikhq> oerjan: I recall that.
00:10:07 <pikhq> That's about the right phrasing.
00:11:18 <oerjan> ah "negative people" was the right phrase
00:14:15 <oerjan> curse bill watterson and his excessive copyright protectivism
00:15:47 <pikhq> Better than being a corporate whore, though. I can at least *respect* a guy who refuses any merchandising on principle.
00:19:22 <alise> planes as birds
00:19:34 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things.
00:19:43 <oerjan> we prefer to kill you in your sleep instead.
00:26:23 <alise> i propose we create war
00:26:35 <oerjan> what a stupid idea
00:29:59 <alise> oerjan: NO AWESOME
00:30:34 <oerjan> rubbish, you should be shot for making such an idiotic suggestion
00:31:05 <alise> hey oerjan, debracketise this for me, i'm too tired:
00:31:28 <alise> (((A and B) or C) and D)
00:32:01 <oerjan> (A and B or C) and D
00:33:11 <alise> thanks
00:38:34 <alise> Vagrant report: 63 lines, AI is still broken because cheater is moody
00:39:14 <quintopia> holy sit i've been gone two hours and my last message is still on the screen
00:40:53 <quintopia> man, the kind of AI you're doing is easy.  why not just do it yourself?
00:40:58 <oerjan> yeah you just brag about your big screen
00:41:00 -!- augur has joined.
00:41:22 <quintopia> oerjan: that was more a jab at everyone's inactivity...
00:41:55 <alise> quintopia: i'm lazy and obfuscated python is a bitch
00:42:08 <alise> i've forgotten what my variables are for
00:42:27 <alise>  if x<X-17:X-=1
00:42:27 <alise>  if x>X+17:X+=1
00:42:28 <alise>  if y<Y-5:Y-=1
00:42:28 <alise>  if y>Y+5:Y+=1
00:42:33 <alise> i swear this is reducible
00:43:06 <oerjan> quintopia: you clearly cannot have been here during the times when it's _really_ silent and all you see is quit/join messages for hours...
00:43:08 <quintopia> alise: it is indeed, reducible, using cheater's o function you refuse to borrow
00:43:28 <quintopia> oerjan: those are off-peak hours.  the two hours i was gone were near-peak
00:44:04 <alise> quintopia: what are you, cheater's lawyer? i didn't see that copysign could help
00:44:07 <alise> how can it help here?
00:44:23 <quintopia> one sec
00:44:52 <quintopia> i dunno python exactly, so this shall be pseudocode
00:46:33 <quintopia> if abs(X-x)>17 X-=o(1,X-x) should do the work of both the first two lines.
00:46:43 <quintopia> there may be a sign error in there, but i think that's it
00:46:54 <alise> err, wait, what does copysign do again?
00:46:57 <quintopia> you can do the same thing for y
00:46:59 <alise> o(n,+x) = +n
00:47:02 <alise> o(n,-x) = -n
00:47:03 <alise> ?
00:47:05 <quintopia> yeah
00:47:15 <alise> quintopia: then that's the same as cmp(X,x) I think
00:47:24 <quintopia> ah yes
00:47:30 <quintopia> didn't know py had that func
00:47:30 <alise> >>> cmp(3,34)
00:47:31 <alise> -1
00:47:31 <alise> >>> cmp(3,2)
00:47:31 <alise> 1
00:47:44 <alise> same chars too :P
00:48:09 <quintopia> rename it to a letter to save space :D
00:49:01 <quintopia> should buy you two characters...
00:49:15 <alise> quintopia: it works, thanks!
00:49:17 <quintopia> at the cost of the define operation
00:49:21 <alise> er, almost
00:49:25 <alise>  if abs(X-x)>17:X+=cmp(x,X)
00:49:26 <alise>  if abs(Y-y)>5:X+=cmp(y,Y)
00:49:27 <alise> spot the error
00:49:44 <alise> quintopia: well i use cmp elsewhere, albeit in broken ai code
00:49:56 <alise> but 1, I have very few letters left, and 2, i use range more often (four times)
00:49:58 <alise> and that has a longer name
00:50:00 <alise> so it'd take priority
00:50:21 <oerjan> alise: 17< and 5< to save a space, surely?
00:50:34 <alise> oerjan: how does that save a space, exactly?
00:50:39 <alise> if17 doesn't work
00:50:42 <oerjan> oh
00:50:44 <quintopia> alise: can you use extended ascii in var names?
00:50:45 <oerjan> bah
00:50:52 <alise> quintopia: no :P
00:51:01 <quintopia> lamesauce
00:51:20 <quintopia> alise: what do those lines do that they shouldn't?
00:51:36 <quintopia> oh
00:51:37 <quintopia> nvm
00:51:38 <alise> oerjan: however
00:51:40 <quintopia> i see it
00:51:40 <alise>  X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)
00:51:42 <quintopia> lol
00:51:47 <alise> BEHOLD THE PAIN
00:51:58 <alise> this works, unbelievably
00:52:02 <quintopia> wow
00:52:03 <alise> take that, four lines
00:52:18 <alise> quintopia: yeah i abuse integers-as-booleans and vice versa so much in this program :P
00:52:25 <alise>    q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and r(0,2)==0 and q-32 else q)
00:52:29 <alise> q-32 for q!=32? why not
00:52:35 <alise> def Q(x,p=0):global V;v=V;V=lambda:(v()and C(x)or p)and s.getkey()
00:52:39 <alise> because fuck you, using def is too long
00:52:52 <quintopia> alise: py uses -1 as false?
00:52:56 <alise> no
00:52:59 <alise> 0
00:53:02 <alise> erm
00:53:06 <quintopia> then i'm not seeing how that works
00:53:06 <alise> yaeh, so
00:53:10 <alise> q-32
00:53:10 <alise> if q=32
00:53:11 <oerjan> doesn't python have && ?
00:53:12 <alise> then 32-32 = 0
00:53:15 <alise> thus 0 is false
00:53:17 <alise> so it's q != 32
00:53:21 <alise> negatives are true too
00:53:23 <alise> oerjan: no.
00:53:24 <alise> alas
00:53:39 <alise> it *does* have bitwise and
00:53:50 <alise> which is shockingly defined on booleans
00:53:54 <alise> BRB codetweaking
00:54:10 <quintopia> alise: i don't see how 17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X) ever returns -1?
00:54:18 <quintopia> explain to this python non-knowing person
00:54:25 <alise> quintopia: cmp is -1 if less
00:54:27 <alise> 0 if equal
00:54:30 <alise> 1 if greater
00:54:41 <alise> True and x = x, even if x is a horse, not a boolean
00:54:50 <quintopia> oh
00:54:52 <quintopia> funky
00:55:01 <alise> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for &: 'int' and 'NoneType'
00:55:02 <quintopia> i know how cmp works
00:55:04 <alise> FUCK YOU GUIDO
00:55:13 <quintopia> but never seen and return non-bools
00:56:55 <alise> i wonder if there's a better way to write
00:56:57 <alise> S=max(S-1,0)
00:57:04 <alise> i.e. inc S only if S>=0
00:57:50 <quintopia> S+(S>=0)
00:57:51 <quintopia> ?
00:57:57 <quintopia> *+=\
00:58:04 <quintopia> bleg
00:58:35 -!- cpressey has joined.
00:58:53 <quintopia> AKA S+=(S>=0)
00:59:06 <alise> quintopia: you mean -=
00:59:27 <quintopia> well, your code said minus, but your text afterward said increment
00:59:31 <quintopia> i followed the english spec
00:59:49 <alise> also er >0 obviously
00:59:55 <alise> S-=S>0
01:00:10 <quintopia> does > have higher precedence?
01:00:14 <alise> no
01:00:19 <alise> assignments aren't expressions
01:00:31 <quintopia> oh
01:00:39 <alise> i am pretty proud with how tiny this code is
01:00:41 <quintopia> they're still opertors
01:00:47 <alise> i scroll through it all and think "that's it??"
01:00:56 <quintopia> i've never done python, but it already seems really strange
01:00:59 <alise> quintopia: yes, but you can put anything that doesn't have a ; in it on the right of =
01:01:02 <alise> pretty much
01:01:12 <alise> no, python's basically just the most boring language ever, on purpose
01:01:22 <alise> you have to be cunning, like me, to do perverse things
01:01:28 <quintopia> duck typing isn't all that boring actually
01:01:48 <quintopia> duck typing turns me on
01:01:59 <oerjan> that's because you're a quack
01:02:02 <pikhq> Yeah, Python focuses on not being surprising. And it succeeds at that.
01:02:20 <quintopia> alise: can i see a current snapshot?
01:02:32 <pikhq> Problem being that interesting things are often surprising. :)
01:03:02 <quintopia> pikhq: you can be interesting and surprising even given the most mundane material to work with
01:03:03 <alise> no python violates POLS a lot
01:03:09 <alise> Ruby doesn't so much
01:03:26 <alise> python is very surprising, but if you do boring stuff it's ... boring like you expect
01:03:26 <quintopia> ruby i have played with.  i like it a lot.  it's neat.
01:03:31 <alise> quintopia: http://pastie.org/1204286.txt?key=iqxs2n6fgidpua9mnwpbrw
01:03:35 <alise> quintopia: complete with broken ai
01:03:38 <alise> (from q=w.copy() to w=q)
01:03:52 <alise> quintopia: debug.py:
01:03:56 <alise> [[
01:04:00 <alise> import sys
01:04:00 <alise> def hook(t,v,b):endwin();sys.__excepthook__(t,v,b)
01:04:00 <alise> sys.excepthook=hook
01:04:00 <alise> execfile('vagrant.py')
01:04:01 <alise> ]]
01:04:09 <alise> if you modify the code at all, this is vital; it lets you see exceptions
01:04:20 <alise> the normal script calls endwin() and they get sucked up before they're displayed
01:04:41 <quintopia> why?
01:04:51 <pikhq> alise: But it's quite surprising for a modern language to actually not violate POLS. :P
01:04:56 <quintopia> breaks curses?
01:05:17 <alise> quintopia: endwin() resets the terminal and all the curses stuff goes
01:05:26 <alise> but it's in an exit handler
01:05:32 <alise> which is called *after* the exception is displayed
01:05:34 <alise> meaning it gets sucked up
01:05:58 <quintopia> ah aha
01:06:12 <quintopia> well, i wasn't planning on running it just yet...just look
01:06:30 <alise> quintopia: it only wipes your hard drive if you want
01:06:33 <alise> if you do, controls are trivial
01:06:37 <alise> vikeys to move including diagonals
01:06:44 <alise> q quaffs potion
01:06:48 <alise> everything else pauses
01:06:49 <alise> Ctrl+C to quit
01:07:06 <alise> ! is potion, # wall (cube of impenetrable yet transparent glass -- you can see beyond it!)
01:07:18 <alise> % is food (just walk into it; 1/15 chance of tripping balls)
01:07:22 <alise> $ is cash
01:07:32 <alise> Q is hopelessly confused, nonviolent monsters; if you want rid of one, walk into it
01:07:51 <alise> S is satiation, run out and you die quickly, eat to stop that
01:08:15 <alise> going into a ! will add to your potion-meter, displayed in parens next to HP; q to move 20 or whatever you have if it's less from potion meter to HP meter
01:08:27 <alise> most everything is random so i can't give specific values.
01:10:09 <alise>  if S<1:L=max(L-25,0)
01:10:09 <alise> hmm
01:10:28 <alise>  if S<1:L-=(L>0)*25
01:10:31 <alise> unbelievably, shorter
01:11:01 <cpressey> if you come to Python from a language with block scope you will be surprised, oh yes.
01:11:06 <alise> and it works :)
01:12:24 <alise> U+=U>0
01:12:26 <alise> another simplification
01:12:34 <alise> quintopia: thanks for making my brain realise that works
01:12:41 <cpressey> seeing this makes me want to design a golfing language
01:12:43 <quintopia> alise: so there's no model behind the view?  if you walk onto something, it ceases to exist?
01:12:54 <alise> quintopia: yup.
01:12:59 <cpressey> bitchen!
01:13:01 <alise> quintopia: well there is one bit of model, your x and y
01:13:07 <alise> would be way too much work to find you every turn :P
01:13:17 <alise> quintopia: also you *could* store an inventory
01:13:21 <quintopia> cpressey: isn't that what perl is for?
01:13:23 <alise> but it'd be a bit of a bitch
01:13:39 <alise>  if S<1:L-=(L>0)*25
01:13:39 <alise>  if S<1 and L:L-=25
01:13:44 <alise> oof, same length!
01:13:59 <alise> coolness or sanity... HMMMM
01:14:04 <cpressey> quintopia: it's what flogscript is for, literally, but i haven't checked it out yet.
01:14:59 <cpressey> L-=(S<1and25)
01:15:03 <alise> cpressey: golfscript too
01:15:04 <cpressey> i don't know if that works
01:15:07 <alise> cpressey: no it does not
01:15:21 <alise>  L-=S<1 and 25
01:15:23 <alise> should though!
01:15:24 <alise> thanks
01:15:30 <cpressey> what so just syntax?
01:15:37 <alise> yep
01:15:39 <cpressey> what if S<1, then L-=1?
01:15:55 <alise> oh hm you forgot to include L in that conditional
01:16:03 <oerjan> alise: L-=25*(S<1 and L) perhaps?
01:16:08 <alise>  L-=S<1 and(L>0)*25
01:16:11 <alise> same length again
01:16:22 <alise> oerjan: you win!
01:16:24 <alise> thanks
01:16:25 <quintopia> L-=S>1and o(25,L)
01:16:28 <quintopia> oh well
01:16:34 <alise> quintopia: "1and"
01:16:35 <alise> doesn't work
01:16:47 <quintopia> when can you delete space?
01:16:57 <alise> after a ) or ' or " pretty much
01:16:59 <cpressey> oerjan's is shorter by one whole character!
01:17:11 <cpressey> and wtf does "1and" not work, guido?
01:17:20 <cpressey> it's a 1.  it's an and.
01:17:34 <oerjan> alise: oh wait it nneds to be (L and S<1), not?
01:17:40 <oerjan> *needs
01:17:50 <alise> oerjan: ah yse
01:17:52 <alise> *yes
01:17:58 <alise> thank you good sir
01:18:08 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
01:18:08 <alise> 1723 vagrant.py
01:18:15 <alise> should be around the same size with working AI, too
01:18:21 <alise> not bad!
01:18:35 <alise> 57 lines
01:18:46 <quintopia> holy shit.  you've come down a whole 3 characters on that one line in the last 15 minutes!\
01:18:54 <alise> :D
01:18:56 <alise> yaaay
01:19:12 <alise> how many pages of code is 58 lines? (one wraps)
01:19:15 <alise> i'm not sure
01:19:18 <alise> one? two?
01:19:28 <quintopia> by what measure?
01:19:32 <alise> whatever it is, it's remarkably playable. moreso when the monsters get a brain
01:19:38 <alise> quintopia: i dunno, people measure in pages of code all the time
01:19:48 <quintopia> i ask them the same question...
01:20:00 <quintopia> usually, it's print out in 12pt monospace font
01:20:07 <quintopia> 1" margins
01:20:43 <oerjan> what's that o function again
01:21:00 <quintopia> copysign
01:21:01 <cpressey> istr a "page" being sixtysome, by some printer's reckoning
01:21:14 <oerjan> and wth is _that_
01:21:26 <quintopia> read up the channel
01:21:28 <quintopia> alise defined it
01:21:33 <oerjan> bah
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01:21:37 <alise> i didn't
01:21:40 <alise> the math module did
01:21:43 <alise> :P
01:21:47 <alise> oerjan: copysign(x,+n)=+x
01:21:51 <alise> copysign(x,-n)=-x
01:21:51 <alise> that is
01:22:01 <alise> copysign(x,n) = x sgn(n)
01:22:23 <cpressey> copysign is either a very lame function or a very cool function.  i cannot decide.
01:22:45 <quintopia> sgn is already a cool function
01:23:14 <quintopia> since one can define it as x and x/abs(x)
01:23:52 <alise> i see quintopia has assimilated the crazy and notation :P
01:24:11 <alise> hallu in my game is so hardcore
01:24:13 <quintopia> which makes copysign x and x*x/abs(x)
01:24:17 <alise> now, this silliness shall continue, but tomorrow!
01:24:26 <quintopia> i like syntactic sugars, i must admit
01:24:30 <pikhq> WHO USES and FOR WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS?
01:24:48 <alise> pikhq: x and y = y if x != 0, otherwise 0
01:24:49 <alise> >:)
01:24:50 <cpressey> x and x/abs(x) may be going a bit far, I agree
01:25:00 <alise> pikhq: the reason: i'm using it in my crazy golfed roguelike
01:25:02 <alise> because it's short!
01:25:05 <quintopia> pikhq: short-circuiting for fun and profit has been around since C was invented
01:25:10 <alise> that too
01:25:17 <alise> quintopia: so why did it surprise you?
01:25:21 <alise> just not used to python doing it?
01:25:24 <cpressey> is there a name for "short-circuit and evaluate to" like this, though?
01:25:30 <cpressey> lua does it
01:25:31 <cpressey> perl does it
01:25:34 <alise> cpressey: ruby too
01:25:39 <cpressey> so they all do it
01:25:41 <quintopia> well, i'm not used to it behaving /precisely/ like that
01:25:43 <cpressey> "they"
01:25:47 <alise> it totally does quintopia
01:25:54 <pikhq> quintopia: Buuut "x and y" as "x ? y : 0"? What crazy crack is that?
01:25:55 <alise> y if x is true otherwise x
01:26:00 <alise> pikhq: x ? y : x
01:26:05 <alise> '' is also false
01:26:05 <alise> also
01:26:08 <alise> perl, ruby, python, lua
01:26:10 <alise> everything does it
01:26:12 <quintopia> pikhq: yeah i know.  that's the part that surprised me
01:26:15 <alise> every dynamic scripting language, more or less
01:26:23 <alise> x and y === x?y:x
01:26:24 <cpressey> um... whatsit called...
01:26:33 <alise> now really
01:26:35 <cpressey> that lnguage with the same name as one of the TRON characters
01:26:35 <alise> Goodnight.
01:26:37 <alise> Bye :)
01:26:39 <cpressey> g'night alise
01:26:41 <alise> cpressey: bastion
01:26:43 <quintopia> baibai
01:26:44 <alise> ^lies
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01:27:00 <Sgeo> Is the humble indie bundle server down?
01:27:02 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu
01:27:18 <cpressey> CLU
01:27:19 <pikhq> I can totally access IPv6 Google. \o/
01:27:19 <myndzi\>                                  |
01:27:19 <myndzi\>                                 /<
01:27:35 <cpressey> i think clu introduced it, or at least, claimed to have
01:27:42 <cpressey> wait, is that a TRON character?
01:28:03 <oerjan> alas it seems to require dynamic typing
01:28:08 <cpressey> yes.  yes it is.
01:28:16 <cpressey> b/c wp has a page "List of Tron Characters"
01:28:19 <cpressey> I KNEW IT WOULD
01:28:52 * quintopia disappears
01:29:03 <oerjan> since either x or y can be returned, and x needs to be something treatable as a boolean
01:30:03 <cpressey> "Bit is a character from the movie Tron. Representing a bit (binary digit), it was only capable of providing yes or no answers to any question. Despite this it still managed to convey emotion and other levels of complexity."
01:30:36 <cpressey> oerjan: that doesn't require dynamic typing
01:30:40 <cpressey> only "truthiness"
01:30:54 <oerjan> well i'm sure you _could_ define a suitable haskell typeclass :D
01:30:59 <cpressey> for every type t there is a function t -> bool
01:31:23 <oerjan> but i don't think there's a common one that quite fits
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01:31:46 <cpressey> common?  no.
01:31:50 <oerjan> oh hm
01:31:52 <cpressey> that is kind of the problem with truthiness
01:32:02 <cpressey> i have yet to get used to the fact that in Python, [] is false
01:34:16 <oerjan> class Truthy a where truthiness :: a -> Bool
01:36:07 <oerjan> cpressey: surely that's borrowed from lisp
01:39:50 <cpressey> oerjan: possibly, but both perl and lua treat empty list(/table) as true
01:40:01 <cpressey> because...
01:40:06 <cpressey> you allocated memory for it!
01:40:09 <cpressey> i guess.
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02:41:14 <cpressey> !help
02:41:15 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:41:21 <cpressey> !hepl languages
02:41:26 <cpressey> !help languages
02:41:26 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
02:42:02 <cpressey> did we ever get factor onto this puppy?
02:43:01 <cpressey> !ls /bin
02:43:14 <cpressey> no wait that's hackego
02:43:22 <cpressey> ^help
02:43:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
02:43:27 <cpressey> no wait that's fungot
02:43:27 <fungot> cpressey: i can hear you typing. i don't
02:43:29 <cpressey> TOO MANY BOTS
02:44:08 <cpressey> HackEgo: help
02:44:10 <oerjan> cpressey: i think someone said factor was removed again for some reason
02:44:37 <cpressey> HackEgo: what is your control introducer character
02:44:39 <oerjan> !sh ls /bin
02:44:54 <cpressey> HackEgo: WAKE UP
02:44:55 <oerjan> now what
02:44:58 <EgoBot> bash
02:45:00 <oerjan> !echo hi
02:45:01 <EgoBot> hi
02:45:08 <oerjan> oh it was just slow
02:45:19 <oerjan> also, used DCC
02:45:26 <cpressey> !sh ls /usr/bin
02:45:26 <EgoBot> X11
02:45:36 <cpressey> !sh echo $PATH
02:45:36 <EgoBot> /sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin
02:45:41 <cpressey> !sh ls /sbin
02:45:41 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access /sbin: No such file or directory
02:45:46 <cpressey> right on
02:45:52 <cpressey> !sh ls /usr/sbin
02:45:52 <EgoBot> accessdb
02:45:58 <oerjan> !sh ls /bin | fmt -w400 | head -1
02:46:03 <EgoBot> bash bunzip2 busybox bzcat bzcmp bzdiff bzegrep bzexe bzfgrep bzgrep bzip2 bzip2recover bzless bzmore cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname domainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more
02:46:05 <cpressey> OH
02:46:14 <cpressey> being tricky, eh EgoBot?
02:46:46 <cpressey> !sh false
02:47:03 <cpressey> !haskell [1,2,3]
02:47:15 <cpressey> !dmesg
02:47:23 <cpressey> !sh dmesg
02:47:28 <cpressey> ok, i'll wait
02:47:54 <oerjan> `echo hi
02:48:06 <cpressey> @tell Gregor please make your bots slightly less user-hostile than OpenBSD
02:48:06 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:48:18 <HackEgo> hi
02:48:29 <oerjan> !echo hi
02:48:31 <Gregor> Doood, my bots are so not hostile at all :P
02:48:31 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:48:39 <EgoBot> hi
02:48:53 <Gregor> lambdabot: SHUT UP NOÖNE CARES
02:48:54 <cpressey> I was going to say "more user-friendly" but... yeah
02:49:13 <oerjan> it seems to have ignored some of cpressey's messages
02:49:21 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3]
02:49:24 <EgoBot> [1,2,3]
02:49:26 <cpressey> !ping
02:49:52 <cpressey> see, what it could do there is say "screw you cpressey, i have no symbol table entry for this 'ping' of which you speak"
02:51:01 <cpressey> !haskell :t [1,2,3]
02:51:02 <EgoBot> [1,2,3] :: (Num t) => [t]
02:51:55 <oerjan> !ping
02:52:14 <oerjan> !echo test
02:52:14 <EgoBot> test
02:53:17 <cpressey> !haskell :t (>>=)
02:53:19 <EgoBot> (>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
02:56:06 <cpressey> what happens if bind is "overspecified" as: m a -> (a -> m a) -> m a ?
02:56:16 <cpressey> kind of like, once you pick a type, you're stuck with it?
03:01:35 <oerjan> um yeah but that wouldn't give a legal Monad instance, a and b must vary freely
03:02:07 <oerjan> :t (>>=)
03:02:08 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
03:02:58 <cpressey> i see; for ALL a and b.  hm
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03:04:38 <oerjan> the forall syntax is an extension for "higher-rank" types, in basic haskell it's implicitly applied in front of all type declarations
03:05:25 <oerjan> :t runST -- a function which uses a second-rank type
03:05:26 <lambdabot> forall a. (forall s. ST s a) -> a
03:05:53 <oerjan> (for particularly magical purposes btw)
03:12:19 <cpressey> charmed, i'm sure.
03:13:55 <lament> hi cpressey
03:14:05 <lament> e-cypress
03:16:34 <oerjan> omg he's really a tree!
03:21:04 <cpressey> hi mantel
03:32:17 <quintopia> !sh dmesg | grep usb
03:32:49 <quintopia> didn't expect much there anyway...
03:33:05 <cpressey> !asm lda #ff; sta $0001
03:33:17 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
03:33:49 <quintopia> which assembly is that? i386?
03:33:58 <oerjan> looks like 6502 to me
03:34:02 <pikhq> "320 kbps" STOP DOING THAT IT IS RAPE OF YOUR MP3 ENCODER
03:34:04 <pikhq> STOP IT
03:34:44 <Gregor> I wonder.
03:34:45 <Gregor> @messages
03:34:45 <lambdabot> cpressey said 46m 39s ago: please make your bots slightly less user-hostile than OpenBSD
03:34:58 <Gregor> Haw, no /msg for YOUUUUUUU
03:35:00 <pikhq> Wait, lambdabot?
03:35:18 <Gregor> pikhq: #esoteric does NOT HAVE ENOUGH BOTS
03:35:33 <pikhq> Is #esoteric on the regular lambdabot join list now?
03:36:27 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a comment to effect of "no promise it will stay", so probably not
03:36:33 <oerjan> *the effect
03:37:10 <pikhq> Okay then.
03:38:45 <cpressey> i guess i should be writin' up another, gratuitous bot to run here eh
03:39:29 <oerjan> which for obvious reasons should be called cpbot
03:42:01 <quintopia> how about botbotbot
03:48:52 -!- cpressey has changed nick to botbotbot.
03:48:58 -!- botbotbot has changed nick to cpressey.
03:49:04 <cpressey> not what i meant.
03:49:38 <oerjan> bigbadbot
03:51:07 -!- augur has joined.
03:52:05 <quintopia> botbotbot is more fun to say
03:56:38 <oerjan> but but but
03:57:33 <coppro> played paranoia today
03:57:34 <coppro> it was <3
03:58:15 <coppro> we killed commies: http://bit.ly/aP8qdB
04:02:48 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot
04:03:01 -!- cpressey has changed nick to mzstorkipiwanbot.
04:03:17 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has changed nick to cpressey.
04:03:51 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
04:04:52 <oerjan> eek
04:05:36 <oerjan> well i guess that means we'll soon find out if we're on the join list
04:07:27 <pikhq> oerjan: BTW: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/
04:08:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
04:11:21 <oerjan> huh so it actually has some net presence
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04:11:31 <Sgeo> I always said those mutant traitors were ugly
04:11:57 <pikhq> oerjan: Legally!
04:12:58 <oerjan> so not quite as bad as Larson, iiuc
04:13:10 <oerjan> (The Far Side)
04:13:42 <pikhq> Yuh.
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04:14:48 <cpressey> >:
04:15:03 <cpressey> the cheatsheet alise gave me for writing an ircbot isn't working
04:16:30 <cpressey> i need to have registered to join #esoteric?
04:16:49 <cpressey> that seems wrong
04:16:55 -!- cpressey has left (?).
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04:17:13 -!- carbolihy has changed nick to cpressey.
04:18:12 <Gregor> cpressey: ... huh?
04:18:52 -!- cpressey has changed nick to mzstorkipiwanbot.
04:18:58 <oerjan> pikhq: i cannot seem to find the one i mentioned before - at least "negative people" gives no hits
04:19:26 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has changed nick to cpressey.
04:20:25 <cpressey> Gregor: I do nc to irc.freenode.net
04:20:31 <cpressey> then NICK mzstorkipiwanbot
04:20:35 <cpressey> the JOIN #esoteric
04:20:40 <cpressey> and it tells me I'm not registered
04:20:42 <cpressey> and kicks me
04:20:48 <pikhq> oerjan: Hrmf.
04:20:50 <cpressey> even though I just registered too
04:21:49 <Gregor> There are steps between NICK and JOIN
04:21:53 <Gregor> Actually, before NICK IIRC.
04:21:54 <Gregor> One sec.
04:22:07 <cpressey> >:
04:22:11 <cpressey> alise never told me that
04:22:22 <cpressey> oh oh oh
04:22:23 <cpressey> USER
04:22:24 <cpressey> k
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04:23:04 <mzstorkipiwanbot> There we go
04:23:11 <oerjan> pikhq: i guess they have no searchable transcripts, only some tags
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04:23:31 <Gregor> Didn't have USER.
04:23:40 <Gregor> Ahyeah, you figured that out before I did :P
04:32:33 <quintopia> how to write an IRC bot: Start with PircBot and then worry about writing the actual functionality.
04:33:00 <cpressey> still not doin' it right
04:33:42 <cpressey> but if i do it manually, it works
04:33:54 <quintopia> add in some delays
04:36:14 <cpressey> nope, taint it
04:44:23 -!- wawawa has joined.
04:44:34 <wawawa> hi
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04:51:45 <pineal_aenimal> isolated unity.
04:52:50 <cpressey> oh foo.  i bet it's because stdout is buffer, eh what?
04:53:58 -!- grha has joined.
04:54:00 <oerjan> yeah i'm pretty sure you need at least line buffering
04:54:00 <grha> :oerjan: I disagree!
04:54:01 -!- grha has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:54:14 <cpressey> wow
04:54:23 <oerjan> wow a run-by argument :D
04:54:59 <cpressey> It was PRIVMSGing itself ("I disagree!") in a loop so I killed it.
04:55:19 <oerjan> oh that and wawawa were your bot?
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04:56:43 <cpressey> everything up to grha was me trying to figure out why my bot wasn't working
04:56:46 <cpressey> THAT is my bot.
04:56:53 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: You're my bot!
04:56:53 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: I disagree!
04:57:10 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: You're a very sophisticated bot.
04:57:10 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: I disagree!
04:57:26 -!- pineal_aenimal has quit.
04:58:32 <cpressey> also, slap me for writing it in python, but it was convenient.
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05:03:27 <cpressey> rrhhh?
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05:11:28 <Gregor> You might want to test that in some channel other than #esoteric 'til it works :P
05:12:17 <cpressey> Gregor: How do I send a multi-word PRIVMSG to a user?
05:12:31 <Gregor> PRIVMSG username :Stuff
05:12:46 <cpressey> oh Mr. Colon
05:12:47 <Gregor> That generalizes: If you start an argument with ":", that means the argument continues to the end of the line.
05:13:10 <cpressey> k the
05:13:14 <cpressey> *then.
05:13:22 <cpressey> forgive the joinpartspamming
05:14:04 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined.
05:14:30 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: Hi. I see you registered with NickServ!  Good for you!
05:14:30 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: I disagree!
05:18:11 <cpressey> you know mzstorkipiwanbot, i'm a-gonna teach you to execute scheme.  and feel pain
05:18:38 <oerjan> mzstorkipiwanbot: oh dear your creator is a megalomaniac!
05:18:39 <mzstorkipiwanbot> oerjan: I disagree!
05:19:15 <oerjan> well it's your problem
05:19:23 <Sgeo> mzstorkipiwanbot, I should not be crowned King of the Universe.
05:19:32 <Sgeo> mzstorkipiwanbot: I should not be crowned King of the Universe.
05:19:33 <mzstorkipiwanbot> Sgeo: I disagree!
05:23:50 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:24:21 <cpressey> so I need to respond to pings or something?
05:24:30 <GreaseMonkey> yes
05:25:50 <lament> that's what it means to feel pain, for an irc bot
05:26:24 <cpressey> with a pong
05:26:27 <GreaseMonkey> now say that in toki pona (or whatever it's called)
05:27:47 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: Toki Pona.
05:28:12 * pikhq should devise a kanji mapping scheme for that
05:28:15 <GreaseMonkey> <lament> that's what it means to feel pain, for an irc bot <-- !translate english toki-pona
05:29:47 <pikhq> Thus creating an overly complex orthography for an overly simple language.
05:30:11 <pikhq> Okay, so it'd be much less complex when there's only 118 characters. Still.
05:30:53 <lament> ilo nanpa toki pi tomo toki li pilin ike kepeken ni.
05:31:09 <pikhq> Gloss?
05:31:21 <cpressey> no, matte only
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05:41:28 <cpressey> i guess I could just say PONG :unknown and it accepts it
05:41:45 <cpressey> but i went through the whole rigamarole of figuring out what my hostname is anyway
05:46:37 <GreaseMonkey> i have a feeling you're supposed to just bounce the message back with one letter changed
05:47:34 <cpressey> but which letter?
05:47:38 <oerjan> the I
05:47:41 <cpressey> s/I/O/g
05:47:50 <oerjan> no g surely
05:48:37 <cpressey> so I should say PONG :gogol.freenode.net?  that seems... ingracious
05:48:37 <GreaseMonkey> although if it doesn't accept what you bang back in whatever valid format, it's probably a screwed up server
05:48:55 <GreaseMonkey> you should take the message, change the PING to PONG, and send it back
05:49:07 <cpressey> mfmh.  o
05:49:12 <cpressey> *ok
05:49:37 <cpressey> experimentation indicates it doesn't care
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06:17:36 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: wat.
06:17:36 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: I disagree!
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06:21:38 <cpressey> @hi
06:21:46 <cpressey> `hi
06:21:51 <cpressey> ^hi
06:21:55 <cpressey> !hi
06:22:00 <cpressey> :hi
06:22:04 <pikhq> Why don't the TLDs have A records?
06:22:33 <pikhq> Rather, why don't they *all* have A records?
06:22:38 <coppro> because no website is "com"?
06:22:55 <HackEgo> No output.
06:23:00 <cpressey> wow
06:23:12 <cpressey> typing http://com/ into firefox takes me to cnet
06:23:36 <cpressey> http://www.cnet.com/ to be precise
06:23:41 <pikhq> Probably taking you to com.com.
06:23:42 <cpressey> i wonder how they finagled that
06:24:05 <cpressey> pikhq: indeed yes
06:24:23 <pikhq> And com has no A record, so Firefox tries adding .com.
06:24:58 <pikhq> But seriously, why not just have the A record point to the site of the operator of the TLD?
06:25:35 <pikhq> (and the AAAA record, of course)
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06:27:06 <pikhq> Hmm. http://例え.テスト/ is a real thing.
06:29:28 <cpressey> indeed yes.  running mediawiki!
06:30:41 <pikhq> Hooray, truly internationalised TLDs.
06:31:04 <cpressey> http://עברית.idn.icann.org/
06:31:22 <cpressey> the mix of LtoR and RtoL in the URL is disconcerting
06:32:40 <pikhq> Mixed text is a bit disconcerting.
06:32:50 <pikhq> But, it's accepted practice for RtoL scripts, so...
06:33:07 <pikhq> Huh. Antarctica has a TLD.
06:36:30 <Ilari> Yup, .aq
06:38:41 <Ilari> aq.                     86400   IN      SOA     ns1.dns.aq. noc.swizzle.co.nz. 2010100201 28000 3600 604800 86400
06:40:12 <Vorpal> I'd like a zone transfer on aq!
06:44:17 <cpressey> 'night
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06:47:00 <Vorpal> bbl university
06:49:05 <Ilari> BE BG BIZ BR CAT CH CZ DK EDU EU FR INFO LC LI LK MUSEUM NA NU ORG PM PR PT RE SE TF TH TM UK US VC YT
06:51:54 -!- sftp has joined.
06:53:04 <Ilari> (the TLDs that have DS records in root zone, no AQ in there...) :-/
06:53:43 -!- Guest89141 has joined.
06:54:03 <Ilari> (actually, non IDN ones...)
06:54:13 <coppro> wootwoot, I proved a hard proof for marks
06:54:31 <coppro> and as I sort of expected, it's really elegant in the end :)
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07:08:10 <cheater99> of course copysign helps
07:08:21 <cheater99> alise is not being smart
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08:11:03 <fizzie> "Cat Head Detection - How to Effectively Exploit Shape and Texture Features" -- http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/jiansun/papers/ECCV08_CatDetection.pdf
08:11:12 <fizzie> Microsoft Research: bleeding-edge cat detection.
08:11:34 <fizzie> "Second, people love cats. A large amount of cat images have been uploaded and shared on the web. For example, 2,594,329 cat images had been manually annotated in flickr.com by users. Cat photos are among the most popular animal photos on the internet."
08:19:16 <Quadlex> My god do they ever
08:19:30 <Quadlex> I'm pretty sure felix domesticus is native to the internet
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09:28:00 <cheater> hello sweethearts
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11:23:40 <ais523> hi fungot!
11:23:41 <fungot> ais523: i found something which _might_ work on win98? dunno... :)
11:24:04 <ais523> fungot: what is it?
11:24:05 <fungot> ais523: lea is a dirty open source hippie commies? yes you can
11:25:36 <ais523> hmm, IRC's working fine, but the DNS seems to have gone down
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12:38:42 <quintipod> Woooooah
12:43:32 <ais523> hi
12:43:58 <quintipod> Hi
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12:48:05 <ais523> any news? anything up-and-coming in the world of esolanging?
12:48:20 <ais523> I think I invented a new esolang last night, I may have to tweak it if it turns out to be sub-TC (although I think it's TC)
12:48:45 <Slereah> What is it?
12:48:50 <quintipod> Esolanging?  Nahhh.  I am going caving and camping starting this afternoon and lasting all weekend though
12:49:12 <ais523> Slereah: a cross between http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism and http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L
12:54:37 <quintipod> I can only imagine
12:56:32 <quintipod> My favorite esolang right now is Minecraft
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13:12:18 <ais523> hmm, I was just looking over my old esoprograms
13:12:47 <ais523> I'm amused by the "tenloop" in Unassignable, that exists to make a single decimal digit
13:13:35 <ais523> it's implemented as a three-bit number, and a four-bit number; the three-bit number adds/subtracts 6 to the four-bit number when it overflows/underflows, the four-bit number subtracts/adds 2 to the three-bit number when it overflows/underflows
13:28:19 <ais523> hmm, who's 79.75.203.167? they wrote a P'' interp in INTERCAL, to prove it TC
13:28:23 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's someone in this channel
13:28:40 <ais523> in fact, I was wondering whether it was me to start with, but that isn't my IP
13:29:01 <ais523> also, I probably wouldn't have used CLC-INTERCAL
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13:30:28 <alise> Dreaming is illegal
13:32:26 <ais523> hi alise
13:32:38 <alise> Hi.
13:32:41 <alise> Illegal! Wake up
13:48:51 <alise> "Worcestershire sauce, the popular English sauce, is made from dissolved anchovies. The anchovies are soaked in vinegar until they have completely melted. The sauce contains the bones and all."
13:48:54 <alise> did not know; did not want to know
13:51:38 <Vorpal> hm, why is the heart often associated with love? I mean, biologically that is nonsense as far as I know...
13:52:43 <Vorpal> if it is just a leftover from before people knew that (which seems probable), then two new questions arise:
13:52:52 <Vorpal> 1) why would anyone think it was related to love in the first place
13:52:56 <alise> hey, you deduced the obvious and called it probable, congrats
13:53:00 <alise> Vorpal: because you think with your heart.
13:53:16 <alise> (no, you don't think with your brain, that just coordinates the body a bit, why would you think that?)
13:53:20 <Vorpal> 2) why is it still used as a symbol for love
13:53:23 <alise> (the heart is the main part of the body, you think with it)
13:53:36 <alise> 2) why do we still celebrate halloween?
13:53:54 <Vorpal> alise, well, I don't know. We don't where I live :P
13:53:56 <alise> why do we still use elements of things that we as a whole reject
13:53:56 <ais523> for an entirely different reason than we originally celebrated halloween
13:54:06 <alise> precisely, and we don't *really* think the heart loves
13:54:09 <ais523> more or less like Christmas has changed in meaning over the years
13:54:10 <alise> we just kept it
13:54:15 <alise> also, hearts don't look like <3!
13:54:16 <alise> how surprising!
13:54:24 <ais523> nowadays, it's just an indication of trick-or-treating and NetHack tournaments
13:54:43 <alise> The heart has long been used as a symbol to refer to the spiritual, emotional, moral, and in the past also intellectual core of a human being. As the heart was once widely believed to be the seat of the human mind, the word heart continues to be used poetically to refer to the soul, and stylized depictions of hearts are used as prevalent symbols representing love.
13:54:59 <Vorpal> alise, why didn't love end up getting associated with, say, the liver?
13:55:05 <alise> because you don't think with your liver
13:55:05 <Vorpal> it seems equally random
13:55:07 <alise> your liver just sits tehre
13:55:08 <alise> *there
13:55:16 <alise> you can hear your heart going, it's near where you talk and stuff
13:55:20 <Vorpal> hm
13:55:34 <Vorpal> okay that seems like a plausible logic for it
13:55:51 <alise> HA
13:55:52 <alise> The Roman physician Galen located the seat of the passions in the liver, the seat of reason in the brain, and considered the heart to be the seat of the emotions. While Galen's identification of the heart with emotion were proposed as a part of his theory of the circulatory system, the heart has continued to be used as a symbolic source of human emotions even after the rejection of such beliefs.[2]
13:55:56 <alise> "seat of passions in the liver"
13:56:04 <alise> Vorpal: i reject your question, it makes a false assumption!
13:56:06 <Vorpal> alise, I swear I didn't know about that one :P
13:56:10 <alise> we DID think that! or at least, something relatively close to that
13:56:12 <alise> lust not love i guess
13:56:22 <Vorpal> alise, anyone thought it was in the spleen?
13:56:30 <alise> me
13:56:35 <Vorpal> ;P
13:56:39 <alise> (but no, i don't think anyone did, historically)
13:56:48 <alise> but then I didn't think anyone would place passion inside the liver, either
13:57:01 <Vorpal> nor did I
13:57:19 <Vorpal> I just picked a random organ in the torso above
13:58:32 <Vorpal> alise, btw, what did they think the brain was for back when they thought you used the heart to think with?
13:58:51 <alise> not much. like the liver
13:58:54 <Vorpal> hm
13:59:08 <alise> maybe it just relays stuff. if they even had a concept of signals being sent around then
13:59:13 <alise> or maybe it just regulates some random thing or another
14:00:15 <ais523> hmm, this phishing 419 spam (claiming to be from Benin, rather than Nigeria) is asking for the answers to a list of questions I don't even understand
14:00:41 <ais523> they want "Your. " Receiver, Country, City, Tel, Test question, Answer, and Passport
14:01:47 <alise> sounds Benin to me
14:01:50 <alise> *shot*
14:02:03 <ais523> I mean, how do I send my passport via email?
14:02:08 <ais523> how do I know what the question is?
14:02:09 <alise> scan it?
14:02:10 <Vorpal> ais523, put it in the floppy drive?
14:02:34 <ais523> maybe I'll photograph it on a wooden table, screenshot Photoshop with the photo open, paste it into Word and send that
14:02:38 <alise> This keyboard has surprisingly good tactile response for Logitech.
14:02:41 <alise> Although I'm still getting used to it...
14:02:44 <alise> And it's a bit loud :)
14:02:56 <Vorpal> ais523, as for "Receiver", they presumably want a scan of your TV receiver antenna or such?
14:02:59 <ais523> (where by "maybe" I mean "there's no chance that")
14:03:04 <ais523> Vorpal: perhaps
14:03:22 <ais523> presumably they're going to ignore the answers anyway, they're just looking for someone who responds to 419 scams
14:03:40 <alise> ais523: no love for "whereby"?
14:03:56 <alise> kind-of, where by, you are strange :)
14:04:07 <ais523> "whereby" means something else, doesn't it?
14:04:09 <Vorpal> ais523, because anyone _still_ doing that would have to be faking it?
14:04:17 <ais523> Vorpal: you'd be surprised
14:04:24 <alise> ais523: whereby = by which
14:04:43 <alise> definitely, whereby makes sense ehre
14:04:52 <ais523> a couple of days ago (I think when clog was down, not sure) I commented on a reddit commenter who said that when parked domains full of ads were visited, they had a clickthrough rate of above 50% as there was nothing else to click on
14:04:55 <alise> Other heads saw devolution as a whole new way of life and adopted an approach whereby the power of devolution was used to enable the school to drive the ...
14:04:56 <alise> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikt:whereby - Cached
14:04:59 <alise> x was used to enable y
14:05:04 <ais523> because most people didn't realise it wasn't the site they wanted to visit
14:05:04 <alise> x was used to mean y
14:05:05 <alise> hmm
14:05:08 <alise> maybe you're right.
14:05:18 <alise> I think "where by" is just as incorrect, though, if it is indeed incorrect
14:05:35 <alise> ais523: hasn't hit me yet
14:05:37 <ais523> (I know that a while back, when a quirk in Google made a newspaper story the top search result for Facebook, several people tried to log into Facebook via its comment form)
14:05:44 <Vorpal> <alise> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikt:whereby - Cached <-- wikt: ?
14:05:49 <alise> wiktionary
14:05:51 <Vorpal> ah
14:05:51 <alise> wikitionary
14:05:52 <alise> whatever
14:05:56 <alise> wiki tonary
14:06:08 <Vorpal> isn't that a separate domain?
14:06:28 <Vorpal> hm they forward it
14:06:30 <Vorpal> heh
14:08:05 <Vorpal> ais523, how many is several? Also, I wonder how bad this is and how much is selective reporting. There has to be lots of cases where some google result ordering quirk did *not* cause similar effects.
14:08:12 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not sure
14:08:25 <Vorpal> and presumably the majority didn't get confused
14:08:43 <Vorpal> or at least if they did, didn't try to log in using the comment system
14:09:09 <fizzie> "Several" was rather surprisingly many, if I remember the case right. Certainly not the majority, though.
14:09:20 <Vorpal> probably facebook is just large enough that on average you will get a handful of morons. And handful will be rather large.
14:09:31 <Vorpal> (large in absolute numbers I mean)
14:09:39 <ais523> agreed
14:10:00 <Vorpal> are there any public figures on how many users facebook have?
14:10:09 -!- Guest89141 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:10:14 <alise> Vorpal: millions and millions.
14:10:28 <alise> 500 million ACTIVE users, it seems
14:10:29 <alise> as of july
14:10:33 <Vorpal> hm
14:10:39 <alise> "which is about one person for every fourteen in the world" --Wikipedia
14:10:42 <Vorpal> how do they count active? last 30 days? last 60?
14:10:47 <alise> doesn't say
14:10:51 <Vorpal> hm okay
14:10:51 <alise> but whatever it is, it's impressive
14:10:55 <Vorpal> indeed it is
14:10:58 <fizzie> "When hundreds of clueless commenters decided mid-February that ReadWriteWeb was the place to log in to Facebook, --" so several is at least hundreds.
14:11:00 <alise> (1) thanks for the division, Wikipedia; (2) no sorry that actually is a useful statistic I just had to make that joke
14:11:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, lets see...
14:11:53 <Vorpal> >>> (500 / 500000000.0)*100
14:11:53 <Vorpal> 9.9999999999999991e-05
14:11:58 <Vorpal> not very many percent
14:12:17 <Vorpal> that is assuming hundreds = 500
14:12:50 <ais523> "To accomplish this, Zuckerberg hacked into the protected areas of Harvard's computer network and copied the houses' private dormitory ID images."
14:13:22 <alise> Facebook, dedicated to your privacy since day one.
14:13:26 <Vorpal> ais523, um?
14:13:39 <ais523> how the predecessor to Facebook got its info
14:13:41 <alise> Vorpal: Zuckerberg founded Facebook
14:13:43 <Vorpal> hah
14:13:48 <ais523> that site had to close down, and Facebook was founded in its place
14:13:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:14:02 <Vorpal> I'm not surprised it had to close down
14:14:06 <alise> ais523: Kind of scary that Harvard's network is vulnerable like that...
14:14:15 <alise> Or, was.
14:14:16 <ais523> well, was at the time
14:14:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though "hundreds" might just be the amount who actually said something. I mean, the case was that the article's commentary page had a "sign in with Facebook" thing, and people signed in, then wrote stuff to the "comments" box; presumably there are at least some who logged in and actually realized "hey, this is not facebook".
14:14:34 <Vorpal> hm
14:14:41 -!- augur has joined.
14:14:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, would "sign in with facebook" be openid or?
14:15:36 <fizzie> This was early 2010, I think Facebook's OpenID joining is a later thing? I don't really know how they do inter-a-graterion.
14:15:52 <Vorpal> also python's floating point rounding for output sucks badly
14:16:05 <ais523> Vorpal: it's Facebook Connect; vaguely like OpenID, except limited to Facebook
14:16:10 <ais523> this is, ofc, a bad idea
14:16:12 <ais523> but nobody seems to care
14:16:19 <Vorpal> ais523, hm. Does facebook provide openid as well or?
14:16:22 <alise> no.
14:16:24 <alise> and it never will
14:16:29 <Vorpal> hm
14:16:35 <Vorpal> so why roll their own system
14:16:39 <alise> power.
14:16:40 <ais523> could you make Facebook Connect into an OpenID provider?
14:16:46 <alise> more people sign up for facebook to use facebook connect.
14:16:47 <ais523> or would that violate Facebook's rules?
14:16:50 <alise> more people think "facebook" more often
14:16:52 <ais523> (it's probably technically possible)
14:16:57 <alise> more people think "yes -- i am using my facebook" when using it
14:16:58 <alise> greater mindshare
14:16:59 <alise> power
14:17:08 <alise> ais523: when Facebook Connect first came out, I decided I *really* hated Facebook for killing OpenID
14:17:20 <alise> you can probably make it into an openid provider
14:17:22 <Vorpal> ais523, do you use any sort of openid btw?
14:17:23 <ais523> alise: I hate Google Accounts just as much
14:17:25 <alise> but why would you want to?
14:17:32 <alise> ais523: google accounts are exposed as openIDs, at least
14:17:46 -!- jcp has joined.
14:17:49 <alise> ais523: which makes it more acceptable
14:18:08 <alise> (and you can't use google accounts on a non-App Engine site without using the OpenID solution, so that's promotion in a sense)
14:18:14 <alise> whereas facebook connect is an outright competitor to openid
14:18:29 <ais523> alise: my issue is the reverse, there's sites that allow Google accounts to log in, but not OpenID
14:18:37 <ais523> so you have to create a Google account to log in there
14:18:45 <fizzie> Twitter can be used as a Facebook Connect/OpenID -like thing, too; the ReadWriteWeb comment page currently lets you login via Facebook Connect, Twitter, or any OpenID provider.
14:18:47 <alise> ais523: well, only (1) Google sites (and this is not too surprising), and (2) sites on App Engine
14:19:01 <alise> (2) is unfortunate, but you can hardly expect Google not to provide an interface to their accounts API from one of their big services,
14:19:03 <ais523> alise: (1) isn't too surprising, but still annoying
14:19:08 <alise> and (1) is understandable if imperfect
14:19:17 <alise> it's sure as hell a lot better than facebook
14:19:30 <ais523> because if I log in to use Google Groups, I have to log out again and clear cookies to use Google search, if I want results that are relatively neutral
14:19:35 <Vorpal> openid is nice in theory, but there are a number of issues with it 1) trusting the provider you use to not abuse it and run a secure system 2) trust them not to suddenly go bankrupt
14:19:41 <ais523> rather than being attemptedly tailored to my interests
14:19:41 <Vorpal> okay you could run your own openid server
14:19:44 <Vorpal> but that is a lot of work
14:20:25 <alise> Vorpal: it is not a lot of work
14:20:29 <alise> you copy like two files and edit one file
14:20:36 <alise> there's no "server"
14:20:42 <alise> also, there are solutions to (1) and (2)
14:20:48 <alise> you can put headers on your personal web page
14:20:53 <alise> that point to an openid provider
14:20:56 <alise> then use your web page as an openid
14:20:59 <alise> swapping providers at will
14:21:12 <Vorpal> encrypted local keyring is my preferred solution, of course if you often use public computers and such that wouldn't be very convenient, but in any case you need to trust those systems not to have keyloggers installed, so they are a bad solution in any case.
14:21:20 <alise> nobody cares
14:21:25 <Vorpal> and you have to ensure backup and such of course
14:21:40 <Vorpal> alise, hm
14:22:09 <alise> ais523: I actually wrote a thing to expose Google Accounts to non-App Engine websites in 2008. Apologies, but, in my defence, it was intended solely to implement an OpenID provider with, before Google offered OpenID.
14:22:20 <ais523> fair enough
14:22:23 <fizzie> Facebook's a sponsoring member of the OpenID Foundation, anyway, so you see, they're helping in their way.
14:22:27 <Vorpal> alise, I remember that
14:22:28 <alise> (gaccproxy.appspot.com; in my defence, that's a perfectly acceptable non-HTTP-exclusive domain name!)
14:22:29 <ais523> as long as you didn't force people to use it, I don't mind
14:22:53 <alise> i posted it on reddit and argued with people who called it the END OF SECURITY and things like that but i don't think anyone actually used it
14:22:58 <alise> also, the example site is long-dead now
14:23:03 <alise> it ran on eso-std.org
14:23:16 <alise> (just to prove it works :P)
14:23:54 <alise> the code is a little ugly iirc
14:24:05 <alise> but contains enough random numbers and verification to be fun
14:24:08 <Vorpal> ais523, don't those sites also allow creating an account and using username/password?
14:24:19 <Vorpal> ais523, like the "conventional" solution to login
14:24:27 <alise> Vorpal: instead of FB Connect?
14:24:29 <alise> some of them
14:24:30 <alise> not all
14:24:46 <Vorpal> alise, instead of fb connect/google accounts/openid
14:24:52 <alise> <fizzie> Facebook's a sponsoring member of the OpenID Foundation, anyway, so you see, they're helping in their way.
14:24:58 <alise> heh :)
14:25:12 <alise> I forget how ITV is structured, but the BBC at least used to partly own it
14:25:33 <alise> Vorpal: google accounts -- not really, sites that use it are on app engine, and what's the point if you have to write auth code too?
14:25:39 <alise> FB connect -- most but not all
14:25:54 <alise> openid -- most offer registration, but only because OpenID is sadly neglected
14:25:58 <Vorpal> alise, remember that thing about gmail accounts getting hacked. China was involved iirc. Now, I'm sure the risk is extremely slim for that, but not even google is 100% secure, nothing is.
14:26:01 <alise> Jyte doesn't but then it's a Jan Rain site
14:26:22 <alise> Vorpal: did anyone actually connect that to China?
14:26:30 <ais523> hmm, my Firefox was going crazy then
14:26:42 <alise> and indeed, nothing is really secure; you are far too paranoid because there are weak links far before you
14:26:46 <ais523> it wasn't responding to any input, which often happens; /but/ if I resized the window, it redrew everything accordingly
14:26:54 <alise> such as your bank, say.
14:27:11 <Vorpal> alise, the IPs were from there iirc, and the accounts belonged to people the regime didn't like.
14:27:22 <Vorpal> so um, not connect for certain
14:27:26 <Vorpal> but very likely
14:27:32 <alise> ais523: anyone remember when resizing Netscape used to redraw everything? 'cause I don't
14:28:09 <ais523> alise: I remember that with pre-Firefox Mozilla
14:28:10 <Vorpal> alise, I remember that
14:28:26 <Vorpal> pretty sure navigator 3 did that too?
14:30:14 <Vorpal> alise, and indeed the bank isn't completely secure... It certainly worries me.
14:30:39 <alise> Vorpal: you do realise that you're so boring, nobody would ever want to compromise your security?
14:31:31 <Vorpal> alise, stop trolling, it's just pathetic :P
14:32:08 <alise> it's true
14:33:26 <Vorpal> alise, still banks use security tokens and such. Reasonably secure.
14:35:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:39:44 <ais523> alise: I rarely bother with really strong levels of security, except when I'm safeguarding information for someone else
14:39:56 <ais523> in which case I expend effort to not be the weakest link in the chain
14:40:10 <alise> I still use the same password everywhere, which I *really* want to change.
14:40:16 <alise> But it's such a huge undertaking.
14:41:05 <Vorpal> alise, a good keychain program + master password? then you can stop using it for new ones and also can change old ones as you run across them?
14:41:23 <alise> Vorpal: bingo
14:41:39 <alise> I just need to figure out how to get one that works on a mobile
14:41:42 <Vorpal> ah
14:41:50 <Vorpal> alise, iphone?
14:43:49 <alise> maybe. i've been meaning to replace it.
14:44:21 <alise> i have this wonderful plan for a website that can do it all seamlessly, on just about any device, including public computers, and yet, is still totally trustable
14:44:30 <alise> (i.e. you don't have to trust the website at all)
14:45:06 <alise> there's pretty much only one way I could be evil and I was planning to have a browser extension that automatically notifies you whenever the code changes and checks to see if reputable people have said it's fine before continuing
14:45:19 <ais523> alise: does it just serve client-side JS, or something?
14:45:21 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
14:45:56 <alise> ais523: I don't particularly want to reveal the whole design in public, even though nobody else would bother building it, because it's the best "mainstream" idea I've had yet, even if I can't immediately think how to make money off it
14:45:57 <fizzie> For website passwords, I've been using a Maemo PasswordSafe port on the phone; that's not too bad, I guess.
14:46:02 <alise> ais523: but basically, all the sensitive stuff is done entirely client-side
14:46:07 <alise> and the server doesn't store anything I can read
14:46:12 <alise> there's more subtlety to it than that
14:46:16 <ais523> hmm, sounds good
14:46:31 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined.
14:46:40 <ais523> the way to make money off it is to get lots of users, and then sell it before the buyer notices you don't have a business model
14:46:49 <ais523> then they add ads and it collapses, but you still have the money
14:47:09 <Vorpal> alise, nice idea but limited to high end phones really.
14:47:35 <alise> Vorpal: well, it would work on any semi-modern phone
14:47:39 <ais523> low-end phones can't log into websites at all
14:47:40 <alise> probably even blackberries
14:47:42 <Vorpal> alise, opera mini?
14:47:46 <alise> Vorpal: no
14:47:48 <alise> but i don't use opera mini
14:47:54 <alise> also, it was mainly for browser usage, it just happened to work on phones too
14:48:02 <alise> Vorpal: besides, creating a java version or whatever wouldn't be too hard
14:48:05 <Vorpal> indeed, I was just disputing the claim about "just about any device"
14:48:12 <Vorpal> alise, there are lots of lower end/older phones
14:48:12 <alise> i meant, cybercafes too
14:48:17 <ais523> wow, Facebook just added/are in the process of adding an option to export data
14:48:19 <alise> yes, but cool people don't own them.
14:48:25 <alise> or rather, cool people don't internet from them :P
14:48:40 <ais523> that's... rather out-of-character for them
14:48:58 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, I wouldn't log in on anything with it. Only internet stuff I do on it is read news and check bus schedule
14:49:18 <Vorpal> and news only when waiting for bus or such
14:49:40 <Vorpal> I think the only times I'm bored is when I'm waiting for the bus...
14:49:51 <alise> ais523: what progress!
14:49:55 <alise> access to your own data
14:49:56 <alise> astonishing
14:50:07 <ais523> I just don't see the motive here
14:50:13 <ais523> trying to dodge antitrust concerns, maybe?
14:50:17 <cpressey_> the story on that confused me
14:50:17 <ais523> trying to actually become less evil?
14:50:22 <alise> maybe they've found love.
14:50:31 <alise> <3
14:50:37 <Vorpal> alise, <liver>
14:50:37 <cpressey_> they claim it is all secure and protected after you download it
14:50:38 <Vorpal> :P
14:50:45 <fizzie> alise: The official motivation: "It's our core belief that people should own and be able to conrol their information in Facebook," said CEO Mark Zuckerberg. "We view this as a philosophical thing."
14:50:57 <fizzie> See, it's philosophical.
14:50:57 <cpressey_> i am all about conrol
14:51:04 <Vorpal> alise, we need to find a way to write a liver now. A bit tricky hm
14:51:09 <alise> fizzie: i really need a good onomatopoeium for "snrk"
14:51:22 <alise> the sort of half-nose, half-above-mouth outwards sharp release of breath
14:51:26 <alise> when smiling
14:52:30 <cpressey_> mzstorkipiwanbot: lambdabot is gone.  you know this means i'm gonna have to teach you to be our messenger service.
14:52:30 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey_: I disagree!
14:52:43 <fizzie> You have a very disagreaable bot there.
14:53:05 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, learn to do memo-passing so that these new upstarts don't steal your place as the channel's most important person!
14:53:05 <fungot> fizzie: you could also use " define" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ display/ fnord
14:53:06 <cpressey_> it's quite the contrarian little bastard, yes
14:53:15 <cheater> sup
14:53:24 <alise> nooo, lambdabot went
14:53:25 <alise> Lemmih :(
14:53:46 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: fort
14:53:46 <mzstorkipiwanbot> alise: I disagree!
14:53:47 <cheater> alise: it's "snark"
14:53:57 <ais523> who is mzstorkipiwanbot?
14:54:00 <cheater> a snark, to snark
14:54:04 <cheater> mzstorkipiwanbot: hi
14:54:05 <alise> cheater: no way
14:54:05 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cheater: I disagree!
14:54:06 <alise> there's no a in it
14:54:08 <alise> it sounds like snrk
14:54:11 <alise> ais523: a bot
14:54:14 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: x
14:54:14 <mzstorkipiwanbot> alise: I disagree!
14:54:14 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: x
14:54:14 <mzstorkipiwanbot> alise: I disagree!
14:54:14 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: x
14:54:14 <mzstorkipiwanbot> alise: I disagree!
14:54:23 <ais523> alise: I know
14:54:24 <cheater> alise: it's a silent a.
14:54:29 <alise> cheater: can I hire you as an AI consultant? :|
14:54:30 <ais523> is its only purpose to disagree with things?
14:54:33 <alise> ais523: apparently
14:54:34 <ais523> that seems kind-of pointless
14:54:36 <cheater> alise: wat do i get
14:54:41 <Vorpal> mzstorkipiwanbot, do you agree that you disagree with everything?
14:54:49 <Vorpal> mzstorkipiwanbot: do you agree that you disagree with everything?
14:54:49 <mzstorkipiwanbot> Vorpal: I disagree!
14:54:55 <Vorpal> ...
14:54:58 <alise> cheater: happiness; the latest release of vagrant before maybe three other people
14:55:03 <Vorpal> who owns that bot?
14:55:06 <alise> cpressey_
14:55:07 <alise> checked IPs
14:55:08 <Vorpal> ah
14:55:25 <Vorpal> cpressey_, you might want to add , to the list of things that goes after the nick
14:55:51 <alise> or just make it reply to it whenever its name is mentioned >:)
14:56:11 <Vorpal> alise, could get annoying, What if it happened when talking about something else? ;)
14:56:13 <cheater> alise: tempting
14:56:25 <alise> python really needs goto
14:56:43 <cheater> python has goto
14:56:53 <Vorpal> it does?
14:56:59 <cheater> def f0001(): blah blah; f0002()
14:57:07 <cpressey_> then it needs gotoplus
14:57:09 <cheater> def f0002(): blah blaaa; f0003()
14:57:12 <Vorpal> you mean a call?
14:57:25 <alise> cheater: that doesn't let me break out of a while loop
14:57:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, at the very least it should reply only if it sees its nick with word boundaries around; otherwise all the words that just happen to contain mzstorkipiwanbot as a substring would get replies.
14:57:31 <alise> also it makes me write global
14:57:31 <alise> and stuff
14:57:34 <cheater> de f0003(): if(blargh): f0001()
14:57:41 <alise> shaddap
14:57:45 <alise> *if blargh:
14:57:45 <alise> *def
14:57:47 <Vorpal> cheater, but python doesn't optimise tail calls iirc?
14:57:57 <alise> Vorpal: you could write a trampoline
14:57:58 <alise> still, not the same
14:57:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed!
14:57:59 <cheater> alise: mine has less spaces.
14:58:03 <cheater> Vorpal: no, it doesn't
14:58:04 <alise> cheater: yours has more bytse
14:58:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Python also has a recursion depth limit of 1000 by default.
14:58:12 <cheater> alise: my bytse are fine.
14:58:36 <cheater> fizzie: oh cool, didn't know that
14:58:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed
14:58:48 <alise> *bytes
14:58:50 <cheater> fizzie: what about nesting depth?
14:58:51 <Vorpal> so cheater's solution doesn't work
14:58:55 <cheater> Vorpal: does too.
14:59:02 <cheater> Vorpal: for some time.
14:59:23 <Vorpal> cheater, aka: doesn't work
14:59:30 <cheater> Vorpal: it's not like we have a working model of a turing machine, so this conversation is moot
14:59:32 <fizzie> The recursion limit is runtime-configurable, though: http://docs.python.org/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionlimit -- there's a hard limit somewhere, of course.
14:59:45 <Vorpal> cheater, how so?
15:00:06 <cheater> Vorpal: because why would you talk about recursion limits outside of the interesting case of turing machines?
15:00:19 <Vorpal> alise, as for breaking out of loops, doesn't python have break [n] ?
15:00:28 <cheater> it does, so?
15:00:35 <alise> it doesn't have break [n]
15:00:37 <alise> it has break
15:00:40 <alise> but you can't do that inside a function, duh
15:00:42 <alise> while x: f()
15:00:45 <alise> f() can't break out
15:00:45 <Vorpal> ah indeed
15:00:48 <alise> you could raise an exception...
15:00:49 <alise> !
15:00:53 <alise> :D
15:00:55 <cheater> exactly
15:00:56 <Vorpal> nice
15:00:57 <alise> because mine sucks up the exception errors
15:00:59 <alise> >:)
15:01:00 <alise> but
15:01:01 <cheater> i was just going to say that
15:01:03 <alise> it's longer than my current code
15:01:03 <alise> so meh
15:01:12 <alise>  a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
15:01:13 <alise>  X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)
15:01:16 <alise> ^ these two lines are totally my favourites
15:01:33 <Vorpal> cheater, well, imagine a main loop of an httpd coded in python implementing in terms of your solution
15:01:38 <Vorpal> so, doesn't really work
15:01:52 <Vorpal> and you will always have to return up the chain in the end
15:02:00 <cheater> Vorpal: i don't care for http
15:02:02 <Vorpal> unless you exit the program
15:02:03 <cheater> it's a failed standard
15:02:05 <Vorpal> deep below
15:02:12 <Vorpal> cheater, same goes for any sort of server though
15:02:16 <Vorpal> httpd was just an example
15:02:29 * Vorpal waits for cheater to claim the concept of "server" is failed too
15:03:13 <cheater> talking to vorpal is a failed concept
15:04:22 <Vorpal> cheater, how so?
15:06:35 <Vorpal> alise, btw read the annotation on iwc today
15:07:49 <ais523> claiming that http has failed is quite a bold statement...
15:08:01 <ais523> did I misinterpret you?
15:09:23 <Vorpal> ais523, long live gopher. Err.... <awkward pause> Anyone here a high level cleric?
15:09:33 * cpressey_ raises hand
15:09:36 <Vorpal> XD
15:10:20 <alise> cheater: so do you want to do AI or not? :P
15:12:38 <cheater> alise: i don't know
15:12:41 <cpressey_> ais523: if its goal was to free the elephants, it has indeed failed
15:12:49 <alise> cheater: But those poor Qs.
15:13:03 <ais523> cpressey_: good thing it found a second job in serving Web pages, then
15:13:07 <ais523> it's amazing what you can repurpose some things to
15:13:15 <cheater> alise: will you keep throwing my code away?
15:13:25 <alise> cheater: only if it's really terrible
15:13:31 <fizzie> Incidentally, in the "new packages" list for my phone there's the Gophernicus Gopher server. I don't really know why someone bothered to package *that*.
15:13:32 <alise> or if I think of something even better
15:13:37 <cheater> alise: there was nothing terrible!
15:13:44 <alise> i am stating my future policy :P
15:13:50 <cheater> ok
15:13:57 <cpressey_> alise: Apache license!
15:14:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
15:14:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: The package homepage URL is a gopher:// thing. :p
15:14:17 <cheater> let's do it, sunshine
15:14:32 <alise> undesired implications
15:14:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I'm not surprised
15:14:57 <cheater> not sure what "sunshine" implies
15:15:06 <alise>   if r(0,14):Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(0==r(0,2)and r(5,10))
15:15:08 <alise> why do I have int() there
15:15:39 <alise> hey i can quaff indefinitely
15:15:40 <alise> aewsome!
15:15:43 <alise> *awesome
15:15:44 <Vorpal> cheater, I think alise is better described by "messoscale thunderstorm in snow blizzard"
15:15:57 <Vorpal> rather than "sunshine"
15:15:59 <alise> IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE VORPAL DOESN'T LIKE ME
15:16:00 <cheater> alise: you can remove int()
15:16:04 <alise> indeed i can
15:16:28 <cheater> alise: i told you talking to Vorpal is a failed concept
15:16:42 <cheater> s/is/was
15:16:47 <cheater> "is" is "was" golfed.
15:17:25 <Vorpal> hm, golfing English, that might be fun
15:17:31 <Vorpal> I wonder how well it would work though
15:19:52 <alise> cheater: just getting this version a bit more polished
15:20:11 <cheater> alise: pls no heritage slurs
15:20:13 <cpressey_> four-long talk
15:20:20 <alise> cheater: what
15:20:45 <cpressey_> a snow blizzard.  as opposed to a cake blizzard.
15:21:01 * cheater wonders what it would mean to "english" a code.
15:21:22 <cpressey_> put spin on it so it bounces off funny?
15:21:23 * alise adds a NEW FEATURE
15:21:39 <cheater> alise: what feature would that be?
15:21:44 <alise>  if k=='\n':D();continue
15:21:46 <alise> dismiss messages
15:21:48 <alise> without costing a turn
15:22:02 <cheater> alise: you totally should set up bzr for this thing
15:22:08 <alise> i hate bzr.
15:22:13 <cheater> that's why you should use it
15:22:17 <alise> no.
15:22:19 <cheater> so as not to hate it afterwards
15:22:26 <alise> i know i hate it for a fact.
15:22:35 <alise> anyway it's too small to version-control really. that would destroy the purity and fun.
15:22:51 <Vorpal> alise, visual sourcesafe!
15:23:09 <alise> wow, dying is broken
15:23:13 <alise> you just get informed that you die, every turn
15:23:24 <alise> and continue on with zero satiation and zero hp
15:23:33 <alise>  if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D()
15:23:36 <alise> ah. that may be the issue
15:23:41 <alise> fixed :P
15:24:28 <cheater> alise: well we need to be able to work on it concurrently
15:24:39 <cheater> alise: what about a screen with vim
15:24:42 <cpressey_> pastebin and clog are your VCS for this thing
15:24:48 <alise> not really, i'm find merging in your changes when i tweak stuff
15:24:52 <alise> *fine
15:24:53 <cheater> alise: give me axs 2 ur shell acnt
15:25:08 <alise> i trust exactly one person in the world with my shell and it's probably ais523
15:25:24 <cheater> that's ok, ais523 trusts me
15:25:28 <ais523> heh, I like the idea that you know how many people you trust, but aren't sure who they are
15:25:40 <ais523> and no, I don't trust you, not to the extent of giving you access to someone else's trust indirectly
15:25:59 <cheater> said ais523, in fact trusting me.
15:26:09 <ais523> err, what?
15:26:13 <alise> cheater: http://pastie.org/1205374.txt?key=rxu2wgg3efutkk6cfdpryw
15:26:19 <alise> i've denoted where the AI needs to go
15:26:24 <alise> you can drop the ,w; from the global list
15:26:25 <alise> if you don't assign to w
15:28:28 <cheater> let's add G's
15:28:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:29:18 <alise> cheater: :|
15:29:22 <alise> get Qs working first :P
15:29:44 <cheater> Qs will work too
15:29:56 <alise> cheater: this is why i didn't use your code :P
15:32:03 <cheater> :(
15:33:33 <quintopia> cpressey_: please go away and drop the _ and come back so that you'll be your normal color again!  alise and ais523 are already orange!
15:33:45 <quintopia> (yay pathological cases of hashing nicks to colors...)
15:34:04 <ais523> hashing IPs, or cloaks, would be more useful, relaly
15:34:05 <ais523> *really
15:34:22 <quintopia> exactly
15:34:57 <quintopia> but being able to manually swap people's colors would be most useful.  this script doesn't do that and i'm too lazy to add that feature...
15:35:45 <cheater> alise: what about adding shooting rays?
15:35:46 <cheater> :D
15:35:54 <alise> cheater: :|
15:36:00 <cheater> :D
15:36:08 <cheater> ok
15:36:11 <cheater> what about puddings?
15:36:18 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:36:36 <alise> :|
15:36:38 <cheater> (i can't really work on the code until tomorrow)
15:36:41 <alise> http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g your code here doesn't work btw
15:36:49 <quintopia> alise: what about replacing # walls with "|" and "-" walls, so that it's easy to string them together on the fly!
15:36:51 <alise> you get floats out of the contraption...somehow
15:36:58 <quintopia> thanks chris!
15:37:18 <cheater> alise: yes, integer floats
15:37:25 <alise> KeyError: (11.0, -10.0)
15:37:40 <cheater> well then int it
15:38:21 <quintopia> i prefer A+W root beer floats myself
15:38:57 <quintopia> someone invent a lang with that as a type
15:39:07 <quintopia> i would cast everything to it
15:39:18 <alise> cheater: well either i patched it wrongly or your code is messed up :D
15:39:27 <cheater> worked for me
15:39:38 <cheater> :)
15:39:40 <alise> btw your use of s is unwise
15:39:41 <alise> s is the screen
15:40:05 <cheater> so?
15:40:08 <cheater> s isn't being used there
15:40:15 <cheater> so i use s for something else
15:40:21 <cheater> are you getting confused by this?
15:40:30 <quintopia> alise: does cheater have a copy of the latest optimized code?
15:40:41 <alise> yes, but he can't work on it
15:40:49 <alise> cheater: no, but it also didn't work the last time I tried it
15:40:49 <alise> iirc
15:40:57 <alise> python scoping is fucked
15:41:08 <cheater> ok, so T gets called for every X, Y?
15:41:23 <alise> T just advances the turn
15:41:26 <alise> quaffing does it too
15:41:32 <alise> http://pastie.org/1201977.txt?key=gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g ;; i swear this doesn't work
15:41:33 <cheater> why would i put ai code in T?
15:41:40 <alise> start it, space, Qs break lightspeed crazily
15:41:42 <alise> space, it crashes
15:41:51 <alise> cheater: read the rest of the code and you'll see why
15:41:52 <alise> all logic goes into T
15:41:57 <alise> everything that happens once a turn
15:42:07 <alise> *such as other characters like AIs moving*
15:42:27 <quintopia> so monsters can only move when i move?
15:42:36 <quintopia> this is getting more and more drod-like...
15:42:40 <alise> or do something else that takes a turn
15:42:41 <alise> like quaffing
15:42:44 <alise> quintopia: no, nethack-like
15:42:46 <alise> ais523: back me up here
15:42:53 <alise> monsters in nethack only move when you take a turn, yes?
15:42:59 <ais523> quintopia: turn-based; your character thinks quickly, but the player might not
15:43:07 <quintopia> monsters in nethack are lame
15:43:11 <Sgeo> Well, #esoteric isn't on lambdabot's join list
15:43:11 <ais523> so the game pauses when you're not acting to give the player time to think
15:43:13 <quintopia> players should think quicker
15:43:18 <alise> Sgeo: it was manually joined
15:43:31 <alise> quintopia: also Crawl, Angband
15:43:31 <alise> Rogue
15:43:34 <alise> Hack
15:43:56 <ais523> are there any realtime roguelikes?
15:43:57 <cheater> alise: just saying, T doesn't seem like the right placer
15:44:01 <cheater> i would use D()
15:44:02 <quintopia> i'm sure they had very good technical limitations in their original implementations that made realtime monsters unwise
15:44:04 <alise> cheater: err, no
15:44:07 <alise> D() is called on, e.g. enter
15:44:08 <quintopia> we have come out of the dark ages now!
15:44:10 <alise> which just dismisses a message
15:44:12 <alise> without advancing the turn
15:44:13 <ais523> (I was about to say "don't say trankesbel", but that isn't this channel)
15:44:16 <alise> so of *course* it should not be in D()
15:44:24 <alise> quintopia: seriously?
15:44:26 <alise> it's called a roguelike
15:44:42 <alise> and you apparently don't have the imagination to appreciate it
15:44:54 <alise> ais523: why not; is it vapourware? i googled
15:44:58 <quintopia> i have the imagination to appreciate a rogueimprovment more than a roguelike
15:45:02 <ais523> alise: it's the PSOX of another channel
15:45:06 <ais523> fortunately, I've forgotten which
15:45:14 <alise> oh multiplayer
15:45:27 <alise> quintopia: dude...
15:45:30 <alise> have you ever played nethack?
15:45:34 <alise> every game after rogue is an improvement
15:45:41 <quintopia> hahaha
15:45:42 <alise> making monsters realtime makes the game suck
15:45:55 <quintopia> it might make yours better
15:45:55 <alise> removing all thinking, skill and planning
15:46:02 <alise> and just turning it into a third-person shooter with bad graphics
15:46:09 <ais523> meh, some players specialise in thinking really quickly
15:46:13 <quintopia> since there's not much in the way of puzzles in your game...
15:46:18 <ais523> but I've spent several minutes planning a move before
15:46:21 <ais523> quintopia: Sokoban?
15:46:34 <quintopia> sokoban is cool
15:46:36 <quintopia> i guess
15:46:41 <alise> ais523: from the trankesbel guy: [[My best achievement is ascending 29 times in a row (that is, not dying between ascensions).]]
15:46:50 <ais523> alise: I know him on IRC quite well
15:46:58 <ais523> that's as far as anyone knows the current world record for that
15:46:59 <quintopia> but what makes it cool is that it has actual maps that a programmer thought about carefully!
15:47:08 <ais523> the same person /also/ holds the world record for winning NetHack in realtime
15:47:10 <alise> "Other stuff include ascending in 1 hours 42 minutes (2009 /dev/null)" fffwhat
15:47:11 <ais523> at under 2 hours
15:47:22 <alise> http://genodeen.net/a_wins.png ;; what did /dev/null ever do to him
15:47:25 <ais523> I'm adding commentary to the recording of that run, pretty slowly
15:47:44 <alise> "Krokotiilinhammaskeittokirja (Damage calculation tool)"
15:47:48 <alise> what a hilariously terrible name
15:48:05 <alise> oh he admins pinobot?
15:48:09 <ais523> yep
15:48:14 <ais523> how did you find out about pinobot?
15:48:39 <alise> ais523: err, you told me to use it when playing nethack
15:48:45 <ais523> ah, aha
15:48:50 <ais523> hardly anyone knows about it, you see
15:48:52 <alise> is it not well-known or something?
15:48:52 <alise> ah
15:48:55 <quintopia> agh i have to go back to grading
15:49:01 <fizzie> Krokotiilinhammaskeittokirja is Finnish for (approximately) "crocodile tooth cookbook", in case that wasn't explained there.
15:49:11 <alise> fizzie: it wasn't
15:49:21 <alise> http://genodeen.net/index.clua?df_stuff ;; Hey, a way to play Dwarf Fortress in Linux nicely.
15:49:44 <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:49:45 <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:49:46 <ais523> */ping ais523
15:50:15 <quintopia> alise: consider what i said about walls! (i even know a way you could dynamically generate rooms without actually having to spend lines and lines of code setting them up)
15:50:32 <alise> quintopia: do tell?
15:50:38 <alise> <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:50:39 <alise> <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:50:39 <alise> <ais523> */ping ais523
15:50:50 <ais523> alise: I was having connection trouble
15:50:53 <ais523> so I was pinging myself
15:51:02 <ais523> then I tried again, so I typed the key sequence to repeat a linea
15:51:03 <ais523> *line
15:51:08 <ais523> and accidentally repeated the wrong line
15:51:16 <ais523> see, it's not that implausible a correction when you know the background
15:51:32 <ais523> (it's just that me pinging myself isn't sent to the channel)
15:52:37 <alise>  U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1)
15:52:39 <alise> not an if in sight
15:53:07 <ais523> alise: did you figure out that k bug?
15:53:12 <ais523> *j bug?
15:53:19 <alise> ais523: which j bug?
15:53:24 <alise> i almost remember what you're saying
15:53:37 <ais523> the one where you hold down j and the turncount goes negative
15:53:57 <alise> ah
15:54:03 <alise> not negative
15:54:04 <alise> just backwards
15:54:13 <alise> fixed by refreshing the screen each turn and getting all cargo cult about that
15:55:21 <alise> woo, actually i can make that one line shorter
15:55:29 <ais523> well, did you figure it out?
15:55:31 <ais523> ah
15:56:21 <alise> not one line
15:56:22 <alise> one statement
15:58:09 <cpressey> the dark ages of turn based strategy... ye-e-e-es
15:58:41 <cpressey> we need some non-turn-based interactive fiction, too
15:58:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:58:53 <alise> haha
16:00:03 <cpressey> the number of times i have died at zangband by moving without considering my position well enough, i cannot count
16:00:42 <alise> I wonder whether quaffing when you have no potions should take a turn.
16:00:43 <alise> ...Nah.
16:02:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:03:01 <cpressey> "the PSOX of another channel"
16:03:59 <ais523> cpressey: are you admiring my analogy?
16:04:07 <cpressey> ais523: yes
16:04:15 <cpressey> kind of swimming in its depth
16:05:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:06:20 <Sgeo> Is clog working?
16:06:45 <ais523> it was having trouble recently
16:06:50 <ais523> but it started working again
16:06:53 <ais523> has it stopped working again?
16:07:08 <Sgeo> It seems to be working
16:07:15 <cpressey> it logged "Is clog working?"
16:07:43 <Sgeo> I wasn't sure whether or not to bother checking logs
16:19:44 <alise> heh, my hallu is flawed
16:19:49 <alise> you can redraw as much as you want
16:19:56 <alise> which lets you determine where everything is, to high accuracy
16:20:01 <alise> because redrawing causes re-hallucination
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16:20:53 -!- lament has joined.
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16:28:41 <alise> "Oh, and not long after making these photos, I was stopped and interviewed by a police officer, who searched my camera bag, on grounds of suspicious activity, potentially related to terrorism. I have a carbon copy of the police report sheet to prove it." --DMM on London
16:28:47 <alise> why am I not surprised?
16:29:43 <ais523> I'm not really, either
16:30:02 <alise> ais523: the photo was of the *tower of london*
16:30:08 <alise> apparently, taking photos of it is suspicious
16:30:17 <alise> you might want to help a friend escape from there, treasoner!
16:30:20 <ais523> I know I was once moved by an armed police officer
16:30:31 <alise> you "know" it? not "remember" it?
16:30:35 <ais523> because I was accidentally standing in the way of an official car that wanted to drive into Buckingham Palace
16:30:48 <alise> :D
16:30:49 <ais523> alise: well, it seems like a really absurd thing to plant a false memory of
16:30:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:31:12 <alise> ais523: I would have just omitted the "I know"
16:31:52 <cpressey> alise: I know *I* was once...
16:32:01 <cpressey> perfectly normal rhetorical device imo
16:32:03 <alise> ahh
16:32:06 <alise> fair enough
16:32:13 <alise> i think i initially interpreted it as that
16:32:19 <alise> but discarded it as meaningless before finishing for some reason
16:32:33 <ais523> I think it expands to something like "well I only know that info about DMM second-hand, but here's a first-hand story..."
16:32:50 <cpressey> also, you are debugging hallucination code, so it's understandable
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16:37:05 <alise> not debugging it
16:37:09 <alise> i don't mind it being broken
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16:40:37 <nooga> fho
16:45:29 <cheater> bk
16:46:10 <nooga> kb
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16:48:32 <cheater> ais523: what's PSOX?
16:48:49 <ais523> uh-oh...
16:48:52 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Client Quit).
16:48:56 <ais523> Sgeo: care to explain?
16:49:16 <Sgeo> What it is, or why it's memefied?
16:49:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:50:39 <ais523> I think cheater was asking the first
16:50:52 <ais523> see, you can subvert the meme this time by taking it back to its roots
16:51:43 <cheater> OK
16:51:46 <cheater> what's psox?
16:52:13 <Sgeo> PSOX is something that sits between a program, typically written in an stdio-only esolang, and stdio
16:52:32 <Sgeo> It intercepts output, and treats it as commands to do things like open files or open sockets
16:52:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:52:43 <Sgeo> And feeds the results back into the program's input
16:52:53 <cheater> why is it a meme?
16:53:22 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:54:13 <Sgeo> Overzealous promotion, vaporware for a time, and despite having language-independence as a goal, it made many assumptions that inconvenience languages other than Brainfuck
16:54:50 <Sgeo> I rejected one of the spiritual ancestors of PSOX precisely because it assumed the concept of cells
16:55:10 <Sgeo> (And some semantic issues.. or was that something else?)
16:57:44 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
16:58:01 <alise> vapourware always :)
16:58:05 <alise> well at least for the stuff yuo said itw ould be able to do
16:58:07 <alise> *you *would
16:58:23 <ais523> you know what would be a good model for a PSOX-alike? telnet!
16:58:36 -!- rodgort has joined.
17:00:04 <alise> ais523: hell no :P
17:00:31 -!- tombom has joined.
17:02:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ++
17:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> --
17:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover> There, all better.
17:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, what did Sgeo assert PSOX would be able to do?
17:03:31 <cheater> i thought psox was phantasy star online xbox
17:04:07 <Sgeo> alise, just because I never got around to the file stuff before abandoning it?
17:04:17 <alise> or network iirc
17:04:20 <Sgeo> And did I ever actually PROMISE a GUI domain?
17:04:21 <alise> although i may be wrong there
17:04:23 <Sgeo> The network stuff works
17:04:54 <Sgeo> pikhq wrote a wget.b
17:04:57 <Sgeo> iirc
17:05:20 <alise> i recall that
17:07:00 * Sgeo goes to watch some SG-1
17:08:01 <Ilari> Wow, for some larger operators, it is estimated that the Carrier Grade NAT logs one would have to keep would take about 2EB of space... That's A LOT.
17:08:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
17:09:21 <ais523> and yet people still don't get the message about IPv6
17:09:30 <alise> 06:48:37 <fizzie> There's the Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI, who believe the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and who fear the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief.
17:09:31 <ais523> EB aren't out of range for modern technology, though, IIRC
17:09:35 <alise> Please, tell me you typed that from memory.
17:09:56 <alise> Ilari: carrier grade logs -- you mean legally mandated stuff?
17:10:02 <alise> i'm not so hot with networking
17:10:19 <Ilari> alise: I mean "Carrier Grade NAT".
17:10:40 <Ilari> alise: And yes, legally mandated logs. Currently one can get by with much smaller logs.
17:10:41 <alise> ah
17:10:51 <alise> Ilari: obviously we will just legislate away the logs
17:10:55 <alise> after Verizon and Comcast complain
17:11:00 <alise> we = everyone :)
17:12:18 <Ilari> Worse yet, even those logs will not be as useful for handling abuse as what currently exist.
17:12:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:13:19 <Ilari> Since time skew would seriously hamper process. Yes, there's NTP, but still a lot of clocks are wrong.
17:14:46 -!- pineal_aenimal has joined.
17:15:09 <pineal_aenimal> ello anyone
17:16:36 -!- pineal_aenimal has left (?).
17:17:46 <alise> 15:06:43 * ais523 continues to wonder wtf expect programs (written in TCL) run, given that TCL isn't installed
17:17:51 <alise> ais523: expect actually has tcl compiled in
17:17:59 <ais523> that was explained some other time
17:18:03 <alise> it's, like, an alternative main.c or something iirc
17:18:06 <ais523> but wow, I made that statement ages ago
17:18:10 <alise> ais523: shut up i can logread as far back as I want :D
17:18:13 <alise> (only 27th August)
17:21:19 * alise examines in album's waveforms in Audacity
17:21:23 <alise> wow, atrocious clipping
17:21:24 <alise> *an
17:21:31 <alise> they should remaster it properly sometime
17:23:37 <ais523> anyway, new esolang suggestion: 2D with two commands (NOP /not/ allowed, you have to use one or the other command everywhere up to the edge of the program): G rotates the IP left unless the current tape element is 0, X going left/right/up/down respectively is equivalent to BF < > + - respectively, tape is bignum, signed, and is initialised to start with 1 everywhere, IP starts going downwards at the top-left of the program
17:23:57 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if it's TC; with NOPs, it's relatively clearly possible to compile BF-minus-IO into it
17:24:22 <ais523> by separating the tape into a series of "always positive / junk / data / always positive / junk / data", etc
17:24:28 <ais523> don't have an interp yet
17:24:48 <ais523> and it's not quite clear how the lack of NOPs affects it, but I think (am unsure) it's still TC anyway
17:30:55 <alise> cool
17:32:28 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>([+++++[-]>]>)*20>)*20[[[-]-]-]
17:33:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 0.0
17:34:01 <ais523> hmm, that's suspiciously low
17:34:47 <ais523> two draws, though, so it's not like it's an autolose program
17:36:28 -!- augur has joined.
17:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> My head is now filled with self-replicating machines.
17:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Figuratively, of course.
17:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I suppose it probably is in a literal sense, as well.
17:39:50 <quintopia> if one can consider meat a machine...
17:40:23 <quintopia> things that are really neat: neuroplasticity et al.
17:41:21 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: it was ALWAYS literally so.
17:41:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:41:58 -!- augur has joined.
17:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the neurons themselves aren't self-replicating any more AFAIU.
17:42:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:42:05 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
17:42:15 <ais523> was a missing bracket, I'm amazed it actually got anywhere at all
17:42:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 21.5
17:42:23 -!- augur has joined.
17:42:23 <ais523> yay, that's better
17:42:42 <ais523> looks like I just knocked GreaseMonkey off the leaderboard altogether
17:44:06 <alise> ha
17:44:08 <alise> nostalgia!
17:44:42 <alise> i wouldn't say the human brain can self-replicate
17:44:44 <alise> just the body as a whole
17:44:46 <alise> with the brain as the cpu
17:44:52 <ais523> neurons can't actually replicate
17:44:58 <ais523> stem cells can replicate, and transform themselves into neurons
17:45:06 <ais523> but the neurons themselves are no longer capable of replication
17:52:14 <Gregor> "SHOO!" "You could ask me to leave more politely." "I could. I choose not to."
17:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I was referring to the various bacteria and such in my sinuses and throat.
17:54:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:54:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood).
17:54:48 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> !bfjoust
17:55:36 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
17:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> !userinterps
17:55:44 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> !ehird
17:57:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:58:12 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:00:06 <Gregor> ais523: Still, defend7 is doing a hell of a lot better than tripwire2, so :P
18:00:35 <ais523> Gregor: heh, defend7 IIRC actually has some anti-tripwire code
18:00:44 <alise> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded
18:00:51 <ais523> if it didn't, tripwire2 would beat it any day
18:00:55 <alise> Yes, that's right, there are so many monsters that my message-printing function crashed.
18:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I see the score tables for BFjoust/
18:01:05 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:02:12 <Gregor> I forget the convoluted but semi-logical algorithm by which I calculated scores :P
18:02:45 <Gregor> I guess it's in report.c if I wanted to remember ...
18:03:37 <ais523> I think you even documented it
18:03:48 <ais523> yep, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES
18:04:32 <alise>    if w.get(v)==81:
18:04:32 <alise>     w[v]=82;Q(w[v])
18:04:38 <alise> *Somehow* this prompts "81" all the time.
18:04:42 <alise> I DON'T GET IT
18:04:59 <alise> oh wait
18:05:01 <alise> forgot to save :D
18:05:26 <alise> ohh
18:05:27 <alise> i forgot an elif
18:06:19 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what evolutionary BF Joust would be like
18:10:28 <alise> i need a lab
18:11:05 <Gregor> Buy a labcoat.
18:11:10 <Gregor> Then a LAB will come to YOU!
18:11:27 -!- Harpyon has joined.
18:11:53 <ais523> hmm, no, defend7 doesn't have counter-tripwire code
18:11:58 <ais523> so why is tripwire2 losing to it?
18:12:27 <Gregor> Because it's more defensive than tripwire is trip-wiry?
18:12:45 <Gregor> :P
18:13:01 <ais523> the whole point of tripwiring (one of the few tactics that worked in BF Joust 1) is to ignore the first of your opponent's decoys (or more, but that's really risky)
18:13:07 <ais523> oh, I see
18:13:09 <Gregor> !bfjoust
18:13:09 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
18:13:25 <ais523> defend7 does place one extra decoy, so it does defeat the tripwire
18:13:38 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:13:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 27.6
18:13:52 <ais523> let's try a double-tripwire; this did insanely badly last time I tried, but it may work better in today's metagame
18:13:57 <ais523> yep, it did
18:14:23 <ais523> (and now beats defend7)
18:14:23 <Gregor> "metagame" :P
18:14:38 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:14:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8
18:14:58 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how many tripwires I can get away with?
18:15:06 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:15:18 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 29.8
18:15:23 <ais523> looks like three is the optimal number
18:15:26 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:15:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8
18:15:37 <Gregor> I was just about to say "I'm gonna go with three" :P
18:15:44 <Gregor> But that's just the optimal number for this hill.
18:15:47 -!- nooga has joined.
18:15:53 <ais523> indeed
18:16:17 <ais523> hmm, tripwire actually has a positive overall rating
18:16:22 <ais523> it's pretty rare to get one of those onto the hill that quickly
18:16:31 <alise> yay, my hallu now has a cure
18:16:34 <alise> (potions help alleviate it)
18:16:53 <ais523> 8 losses, one to defend7 (where a tripwire trips over the defenses altogether and lands on the other side of the flag)
18:17:33 <alise> I think it's actually possible to survive hunger if you get like 100 potions.
18:17:51 <alise> (being hungry deducts 25 HP per turn)
18:17:56 <alise> and potions give 20
18:18:12 <alise> hungry=no satiation, that is
18:18:23 <alise> so if you have enough HP, and enough potions to last you until you get to the nearby food...
18:18:38 <ais523> is there a maxhp?
18:18:47 <alise> 300
18:19:01 <alise> i may make money useful, say,
18:19:06 <alise> higher max hp the more money you have
18:19:20 -!- augur has changed nick to cheesey_.
18:19:21 <Gregor> CAPITALIST PIG
18:19:24 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
18:19:24 <alise> 1536 vagrant.py
18:19:27 <alise> pretty good, I think
18:19:28 -!- cheesey_ has changed nick to augur.
18:19:46 <alise> 19.2 "standard" (80 col) lines
18:19:54 <alise> replacing newline with something else, that is
18:20:05 <alise> just need to make monsters work now :P
18:22:12 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 17.3
18:22:26 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:22:31 <ais523> OK, it seems you /do/ need decoys
18:22:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8
18:26:40 <nooga> vagrant?
18:28:20 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:28:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:30:06 <nooga> i'm looking for an idea for a complicated programs in C++ and C#
18:30:20 <Gregor> WebKit
18:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> That's in ObjC, surely?
18:30:45 <Gregor> C++, it's from KHTML remember.
18:30:59 * alise wonders how he lost 5 HP
18:31:13 <Gregor> alise: Not enough entrepreneurship.
18:31:20 <alise> nooga: vagrant is my lovely little golfed roguelike
18:31:56 <Gregor> alise: Is there an actual roguelike golf out there, or are you just making it 'cuz you can?
18:31:59 <alise> 1635 bytes of Python -- well, 1634, the newline at the end is irrelevant -- and, although it doesn't have monsters that actually fight you yet, it's surprisingly feature...ful
18:32:04 <Gregor> If the latter, I have a GC in <700 lines of C :P
18:32:24 <alise> Gregor: The latter. Well, there was a 1k roguelike competition a while ago on that usenet group, but it only got like three submissions and half were in C# and Java and shit.
18:32:31 <alise> (Yes, half of three!)
18:32:36 <alise> Besides, I've broken the 1k barrier already.
18:32:46 <alise> By doing things like this:
18:32:51 <alise>  w.update(q);U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1)
18:32:52 <alise>  w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y);D()
18:32:53 <alise>  a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
18:32:55 <alise>   if P and L+20<301:q=min(P,20);L+=q;U+=q*3*(U>0);P-=q;T()
18:32:57 <Gregor> So, one was in both C# and Java, another was in C, and one was in Java with JNI using C stuff?
18:33:07 <alise>    q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
18:33:08 <alise>  s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));global V;V();V=lambda:1;s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
18:33:37 <alise> Gregor: My messaging system is awesome. Guess how it works. Actually it doesn't really work but there you go.
18:34:21 <alise> Actually it does.
18:36:15 -!- Gregor has set topic: The international hub for esoterica, the occult, astrology, esoteric topics in computing and programming languages, astral projection, necromancy and scientology | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:36:37 <ais523> Gregor: don't
18:36:44 -!- ais523 has set topic: < pikhq> Microsoft Word: the worst program to design web pages in, and this *includes* Malbolge. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:36:50 <Gregor> ais523: BUT THOU MUST
18:38:03 <ais523> OK, can anyone explain this? leaning on my touchpad in a certain way causes all the pixels in the client area of my IRC client (but not the window border or tabs, etc, so it's clearly software-involved somehow)
18:38:11 <alise> <ais523> Gregor: don't
18:38:12 <alise> why not?
18:38:17 <alise> it's funnier that way
18:38:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: Totally NOT the international hub for esoterica, the occult, astrology, astral projection, necromancy and scientology | But actually IS the international hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:38:44 <ais523> but it doesn't correspond to left/right/middle-clicking, or any sort of mouse movement AFAICT
18:38:47 <ais523> so what input's being sent?
18:38:55 <alise> "leaning on my touchpad in a certain way causes all the pixels in the client area of my IRC client (but not the window border or tabs, etc, so it's clearly software-involved somehow)"
18:38:58 <alise> causes all of them WHAT?
18:39:05 <cpressey> so i think my bot should be an esolang interpreter HEAR ME OUT
18:39:05 <Gregor> ais523: It just causes them.
18:39:07 <ais523> to move to the left
18:39:09 <alise> "It just causes all of them!"
18:39:10 <alise> Gregor: ha, snap
18:39:15 <Gregor> They wouldn't exist if not for leaning on the --- damn :P
18:39:18 <alise> except you mispinged me :P
18:39:26 <ais523> I knew I'd missed something from the sentence, just wasn't sure what
18:39:31 <cpressey> a language that just happens to overlap the irc protocol and thus work as a bot
18:39:39 <Gregor> alise: I was actually writing that before you wrote your thing, so I was telling him that :P
18:39:54 <ais523> (anyway, the main reason is that by attempting to define esoterica, there's bound to be someone who stumbles in here by mistake, disagrees with our definition, and flames us all for the rest of our lives
18:39:55 <ais523> )
18:40:05 <Gregor> cpressey: Mah brain axplote.
18:40:28 <alise> i thought it was in response to <alise> causes all of them WHAT?
18:40:32 <alise> or did you write it before that too?
18:40:45 <Gregor> alise: I wrote it before that, that's what I'm saying.
18:40:55 -!- ais523 has set topic: peanut butter, the teachings of Henry XVI of Lithuania, rooftop supports, neutrinos | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:40:58 <ais523> there, that's better
18:41:35 <cpressey> lithuanians sure do have funny surnames
18:41:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: George Carver did not invent peanut butter | Not that we're racist or anything | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:41:39 <alise> Gregor: right
18:42:09 -!- alise has set topic: Peanut butter | The teachings of Henry XVI of Lithuania | Rooftop supports | Burma Shave | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:42:34 <Gregor> TOPIC FIGHT
18:43:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel is not about whatever you think it's about | Unless that's Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving creme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:43:28 <Gregor> COMPROMISE! :P
18:43:42 <ais523> OK, I like it
18:43:45 <alise> do you really mean creme there?
18:43:57 <Gregor> No, but I'm keeping it.
18:44:32 <ais523> surely it should be crème?
18:44:37 <Gregor> YES
18:44:42 -!- trdrkia has joined.
18:44:50 <trdrkia> wow, cool, i thought nobody was as crazy as me to try it
18:44:55 <ais523> hi
18:45:01 <trdrkia> im from lithuania and i made some shaving cream with peantu butter...
18:45:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel is not about whatever you think it's about | Unless that's Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crème | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:45:07 <trdrkia> **peanut sorry my english isn't so good :))
18:45:19 <trdrkia> so what are you guys'' experiences ?
18:45:22 <ais523> alise: your IP gives you away
18:45:32 -!- Gregor has left (?).
18:45:32 <ais523> still, great performance art
18:45:33 <alise> ais523: NO MY WHOLE COUNTRY IS ON A NIC
18:45:41 -!- Gregor has joined.
18:45:41 -!- Gregor has left (?).
18:45:45 <trdrkia> it is true, alise is president of lithuania
18:45:58 <trdrkia> we have a song about it: "$*("Y!£HNO CARRIER
18:45:59 -!- trdrkia has quit (Client Quit).
18:46:03 -!- Gregor has joined.
18:46:06 <Gregor> Yes, Colloquy is certainly the worst IRC client there is.
18:46:12 <alise> Gregor: It is pretty bad.
18:46:14 <alise> Gregor: Try LimeChat.
18:46:19 <alise> http://limechat.net/mac/
18:46:20 <Gregor> CAN DOOOOO
18:46:21 <alise> It's got what plants crave!
18:46:52 <alise> I don't know if LimeChat has /ignore yet, but hey, what can you do.
18:46:54 <alise> (It probably does.)
18:47:05 <alise> Indeed.
18:47:09 <alise> Since 2010-05, which is... May?
18:47:10 <Gregor> /ignore is for pussies anyway.
18:47:39 <cpressey> Gregor has OMNI PERCEPTION
18:47:44 <alise> Real men face their enemies!
18:47:59 <Gregor> wtf ... it won't let me install RubyCocoa ...
18:48:04 <alise> Gregor: Dude.
18:48:07 <alise> Your OS includes it.
18:48:10 <alise> Assuming you're post-Tiger.
18:48:16 <alise> http://cloud.github.com/downloads/psychs/limechat/LimeChat_2.15.tbz
18:48:18 <Gregor> Oh, I forgot what stupid name corresponds to what.
18:48:21 <alise> Copy .app, done.
18:48:31 <Gregor> I saw "Snow Leopard" and went "know I don't have that", so skipped right to the next one.
18:48:37 <alise> Lawl
18:48:37 <Gregor> Missing that "Leopard" was there too.
18:49:00 <alise> Gregor: You probably want to go to LimeChat -> Preferencse -> Log -> Untick "Show image links inline."
18:49:09 <alise> I think that would change http://totallygoatse/ into you know what.
18:49:20 <alise> Apparently it does it for YouTube links too.
18:49:26 <alise> (It may not even be enabled by default; I don't know.)
18:49:28 <ais523> hmm, I just noticed the zzo38 take on BF Joust
18:49:30 <alise> It's a good client though.
18:49:44 <ais523> and have been laughing for over a minute
18:49:49 <ais523> it's just so... different from how I think of it
18:49:54 <ais523> although it might nonetheless be a decent game
18:49:58 <alise> link?
18:50:06 <alise> also, you laugh at *way* too little
18:50:22 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust
18:50:24 <ais523> and I know
18:50:31 <ais523> well, it's not really quantity, but unexpectedness
18:50:38 <ais523> some things I find funny that other people don't, and vice versa
18:51:14 <alise> i wonder what zzo's like in real life
18:51:22 <alise> i dearly hope he speaks exactly like on IRC
18:52:04 <alise> ais523: I like how he turned it into a card betting game.
18:52:06 <Gregor> OK, now on LimeChat.
18:52:12 <alise> Takes skill.
18:52:14 <ais523> alise: indeed
18:52:23 <ais523> it's like a mix between BF Joust and poker
18:52:24 <alise> Gregor: Notice the lesser amount of pain.
18:52:29 <alise> <alise> Gregor: You probably want to go to LimeChat -> Preferencse -> Log -> Untick "Show image links inline."
18:52:33 <ais523> you could actually do BF Joust without the BF
18:52:37 <alise> If it is indeed ticked by default.
18:52:47 <ais523> on your turn, you can: do nothing; check if your current location is 0; adjust your current location + or -; move < or >
18:52:56 <Gregor> alise: Why does that exist, and why is it under "Log" ...
18:53:10 <alise> Gregor: "Log" is LimeChat's name for the thing you see on screen.
18:53:15 <alise> The actual displayed meat of the channel.
18:53:16 <ais523> that way you can play it as a competitive game between humans
18:53:20 <alise> Gregor: It's Japanese :P
18:53:28 <alise> As for why it exists: #goatse obvs
18:53:38 <alise> ais523: that'd be rather slow, I imagine
18:53:41 <Gregor> alise: Of course it is, it's in Ruby.
18:53:48 <alise> Gregor: Oh snap.
18:54:01 <ais523> alise: now I'm wondering if that channel exists
18:54:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
18:54:09 <alise> ais523: rather easy way to find out
18:54:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:54:14 <ais523> not that I'd join it, even if it did exist
18:54:19 <alise> * You have been kicked from #goatse by ChanServ (Invite only channel)
18:54:27 <alise> It's a very exclusive anal-stretching channel.
18:54:27 <Gregor> lawl
18:54:32 <alise> You need an invite.
18:54:41 <Gregor> You have to post relevant pics to the moderator before being allowed to join.
18:54:51 <Gregor> Then they discuss techniques, skills, etc.
18:55:14 <alise> Gregor: You use a bouncer, right? Which?
18:55:20 <Gregor> alise: bip
18:55:34 <Gregor> It is precisely one modicum less terrible than the other ones I've used :P
18:55:42 <alise> Gregor: Ah, shame. I had some code that made LimeChat work with my bouncer's automatic scrollback feature, actually modifying the time fields and stuff.
18:55:48 <alise> So that it looked like you'd been in there all this time.
18:55:55 <Gregor> *eh*
18:55:55 <alise> Gregor: Have you seen http://miau.sourceforge.net/?
18:55:58 <alise> it's a pretty good bouncer
18:56:26 <Gregor> I used bip only because it was recommended at me *shrugs*
18:56:34 <alise> I just recommended miau at you :P
18:56:43 <alise> I can't recall whether I used psyBNC or miau at the time I wrote that code though.
18:56:47 <alise> psyBNC is terrible.
18:56:50 <Gregor> Too late, bip got recommended at me earlier.
18:57:11 <fizzie> The problem with switching bouncers is that it's (potentially) yet another different log format.
18:57:32 <Gregor> fizzie: I don't log on the bouncer, I only log via xchat, and my xchat is always connected.
18:57:57 <fizzie> But that'd destroy my main reason for having a bouncer, which is to make switching actual IRC clients a lot easier.
18:58:14 <Gregor> Switching LOCATIONS is what's vital, not clients.
18:58:21 <Gregor> I'm on my laptop, at school right now.
18:58:27 <Gregor> But my home computer is still on.
18:58:44 <alise> People who use the "school" terminology post-school weird me out.
18:58:45 -!- nooga has left (?).
18:58:47 <alise> WEIRD ME OUT I say.
18:58:47 <Gregor> Also, the primary reason for me to have a bouncer is because having my hostname be codu.org is pretty damned suave.
18:58:53 -!- nooga has joined.
18:58:56 <Gregor> alise: So, Americans.
18:59:03 <nooga> alise: do you have something stable?
18:59:05 <Gregor> alise: Since all Americans call all forms of education "school"
18:59:19 <alise> Gregor: you're a Ph.D. student right?
18:59:23 <Gregor> Yeah
18:59:34 <alise> I've never heard a Ph.D. student talk about going to school in the present tense, or anyone reference a Ph.D. student doing so :P
18:59:45 <alise> Unless they're the world's most retarded Ph.D. student, in which case maybe they go to little school too.
18:59:57 <alise> (Like theolog--*shot by the pope*)
19:00:04 <Gregor> I'm an idiot savant. I know computer science, not how to tie my shoes.
19:00:44 <fizzie> To each his own, I guess; I used to, and still do, run a permanently connected irssi that I'd ssh into for switching locations and having a zem.fi host; I just went bouncy to be able to experiment with clients without it messing logging and so.
19:01:23 <nooga> savant
19:02:04 <nooga> savant != i know computer science and i'm completely antisocial nerd that gets annoyed by daylight
19:02:04 <alise> Did anyone ever build an archiving system on ar before tar came along?
19:02:32 -!- augur has joined.
19:02:33 <alise> Like, an ar file that has a __DIRECTORIES file with a list of A, B and C separated by newlines,
19:02:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:02:41 <alise> and that means the A.ar, B.ar, C.ar files inside are more directories
19:04:55 <Gregor> nooga: Sarcasm (n)
19:05:20 -!- antivigilante__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:05:20 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:07:20 <Gregor> alise: I think cpio and tar came about precisely because ar was insufficient for real archiving :P
19:07:33 <alise> It's not insufficient, just handicapped! >___>
19:07:51 <alise> Gregor: Also, you forgot pax.
19:08:03 <Gregor> pax postdated by like a decade both cpio and tar
19:08:13 <Gregor> So no, pax came about because of limitations in cpio and tar :P
19:08:15 <ais523> yay pax
19:08:22 <alise> Gregor: Correct response:
19:08:26 <alise> "No, I really didn't forget pax."
19:08:30 <alise> Or:
19:08:31 <alise> "I wish.
19:08:33 <alise> *wish."
19:09:12 <Gregor> I wish UNIX folks would switch to a random-access-aware compression and archival format.
19:09:26 <alise> Like PAX!
19:09:34 <alise> [[Furthermore, "pax" means "peace" in Latin, so name implies it shall create peace between the tar and cpio format supporters.]]
19:09:37 <ais523> Gregor: tar and pax are random-access-aware when decompressed
19:09:49 <Gregor> "COMPRESSION AND ARCHIVAL"
19:09:52 <ais523> alise: well, it worked, when's the last time you saw a tar/cpio flamewar?
19:10:06 <Gregor> Hell, even HP-UX's bizarre .gz.tar files are better than .tar.whateverz
19:10:13 <alise> pax is what happens when the IEEE tries to design software!
19:10:21 <alise> Gregor: ...gz.tar?
19:10:21 <alise> WHAT
19:10:28 <alise> Is every file inside gz'd or something?
19:10:29 <ais523> alise: gzip files, /then/ tar them
19:10:33 <alise> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:10:42 <Gregor> alise: Gives you random access to compressed files.
19:10:58 <alise> Yes, but AAAAAAAA
19:11:08 <Gregor> Mind, HP-UX uses that format for installable packges, which have no use for random-access, but anywho :P
19:11:12 <alise> .xz.cpio *mwahahahaha*
19:11:24 <Gregor> .lzma.cab
19:11:30 * alise lols irl
19:11:37 <alise> Gregor: .xz is lzma btw :P
19:11:42 <alise> (.lzma is deprecated)
19:11:43 <Gregor> Only BETTAR
19:11:46 <alise> (older format)
19:11:52 <alise> Gregor: .cab.tar.cpio.cab
19:12:05 <fizzie> .cab.cab.cab
19:12:16 <Gregor> .Z.iso.shar
19:12:17 <alise> Cab! Wonderful cab!
19:12:20 <fizzie> I mean, there's 3DES; why not 3cab.
19:12:24 <alise> Cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab...
19:12:50 <alise> Gregor: .ext3.ext2.ext.reiserfs.7z.ar
19:12:59 <Gregor> I remember I had a class that required submissions in .shar format.
19:13:00 <ais523> the Windows public-access computers in the EE computer labs here used to automatically rename .tar.gz files to .tar.tar
19:13:01 <Gregor> So bizarre.
19:13:02 <ais523> for no apparent reason
19:13:17 <ais523> Gregor: well, you can read shars without uncompressing them
19:13:22 <alise> Gregor: .zip.pax
19:13:24 <ais523> they used to be common on Usenet for that reason
19:13:26 <alise> Free as in Free 30-Day Trial!
19:13:34 <pikhq> ais523: Except when they're not.
19:13:36 <alise> *.rar, for better effect
19:13:42 <ais523> pikhq: well, yes
19:13:45 <Gregor> .ace
19:13:56 <pikhq> ais523: GNU shar can produce base64'd, gzip'd shars.
19:14:04 <pikhq> (not by default, mind)
19:14:05 <ais523> pikhq: the man page says that people get annoyed when you post them to Usenet
19:14:10 <alise> Gregor: .lha.nrg
19:14:13 <alise> (Nero disk image)
19:14:13 <Gregor> ais523: I seem to recall the submission program that's official but nobody actually uses here recompressing .tar.gz files, so you'd get a file named .tar.gz, but that was actually a .tar.gz.gz
19:14:17 <pikhq> ais523: For obvious reasons.
19:14:18 <Gregor> Which is surprisingly annoying to extract.
19:14:27 <ais523> Gregor: I can guess what you mean there
19:14:29 <pikhq> ais523: Might as well just MIME encode a tarball at that point.
19:14:33 <ais523> (why is gzip filename-sensitive anyway?)
19:14:57 <Gregor> You'd have to gunzip, rename the result, then tar zxf
19:14:58 <alise> because gzip has a badly-designed UI
19:15:10 <ais523> it's more a very specific UI
19:15:17 <alise> it's a bad UI.
19:15:18 <ais523> good for the most common use-case, bad in other cases
19:15:18 <Gregor> And of course you'd never remember that it's doing this to you, so first you'd tar zxf, then it'll say "this shit ain't no tar"
19:15:22 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:15:37 <ais523> impomatic: EgoBot's working again, if that's what you're here for
19:15:43 <ais523> there's even been movement on the hill today
19:15:45 <impomatic> Thanks :-)
19:16:00 <Gregor> EVIL movement.
19:16:00 <Gregor> People need to PM me when it's not working :P
19:16:01 <pikhq> For uncommon usecases, you pretty much want to use it as a filter; it'll be annoying otherwise.
19:16:07 <impomatic> I joined #esolang first and wondered where everyone disappeared to :-)
19:16:13 <alise> pax -wf /dev/fd0 .
19:16:13 <alise> ATTENTION! pax archive volume change required.
19:16:13 <alise> /dev/fd0 ready for archive volume: 2
19:16:13 <alise> Load the NEXT STORAGE MEDIA (if required) and make sure it is WRITE ENABLED.
19:16:13 <alise> Type "y" to continue, "." to quit pax, or "s" to switch to new device.
19:16:14 <alise> If you cannot change storage media, type "s"
19:16:16 <alise> Is the device ready and online? >
19:16:18 <alise> So Unix.
19:16:50 <ais523> pax splits across drives?
19:16:57 <alise> yup!
19:17:01 <impomatic> I'm just making a BF Joust wiki page, so I wanted to test an example
19:17:04 <Gregor> Real men cat then extract.
19:17:06 <alise> with a very un-unixy UI :P
19:17:07 <ais523> well, across disks
19:17:08 <ais523> one drive
19:17:10 <alise> catstrat
19:17:21 <ais523> impomatic: in which wiki?
19:17:28 <alise> Gregor: The best archive format is "cat directory" (works on at least Plan 9 and NetBSD!)
19:17:36 -!- antivigilante has joined.
19:17:36 <alise> Sure, it's system-dependent... but who cares, it's simple!
19:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of thing would you use random-access compression for?
19:17:46 <alise> cat files | compress
19:17:50 <Gregor> alise: wtfbbq?
19:17:51 -!- antivigilante__ has joined.
19:17:55 <ais523> alise: does that actually give you the files in the directory? or just the metadata?
19:18:01 <alise> ais523: just the metadata, actually
19:18:04 <alise> but whatever
19:18:07 <pikhq> alise: The best archive format is a filesystem dump containing just the required inodes and blocks.
19:18:08 <impomatic> ais523: http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx
19:18:11 <pikhq> :P
19:18:13 <alise> Gregor: Pretty sure it just spits out the filesystem metadata.
19:18:25 <Gregor> impomatic: .ashx ... you lose forever.
19:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Ash as in the shell?
19:18:42 <pikhq> (that would actually be pretty awesome: arche2fs /dev/sda1 /home/pikhq/some_dir)
19:18:43 <alise> xD
19:18:50 <alise> "ash(1) Server Pages"
19:18:54 <ais523> ash.NET
19:19:34 <pikhq> impomatic: Waitwaitwait, *Almquist shell* CGI?
19:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I already said that.
19:20:07 <alise> pikhq: It isn't.
19:20:10 <alise> It's ASP shit.
19:20:16 <pikhq> ASP MUST DIE
19:20:18 <alise> But it SHOULD be ash.
19:20:24 <alise> pikhq: Nono, ASP.NET!
19:20:25 <impomatic> Gregor: I didn't actually write any .NET, just picked a Wiki that used a flat file.
19:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Zsh!
19:20:32 <pikhq> I could at least respect CGI in asp.
19:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> The Emacs of shells!
19:20:39 <alise> ais523: quick, link to BobTHAbsentee's tracking system
19:20:40 <alise> pikhq: *ash
19:20:46 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
19:20:58 <pikhq> impomatic: TiddlyWiki?
19:21:01 <ais523> http://nomic.bob-space.com/agoralog.aspx
19:21:14 <alise> TiddlyWiki doesn't support server writes without evil.
19:21:18 <alise> pikhq: Behold ^
19:21:20 <alise> (what ais523 said)
19:21:33 <alise> pikhq: Especially view source, look at __VIEWSTATE.
19:21:39 <Phantom_Hoover> man zshall is nearly 1.3M long.
19:21:47 <alise> pikhq: All of Agora relied on this not that long ago.
19:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> man bash is only about 3K.
19:21:54 <alise> Then he left, I think he had his, what, sixth kid?
19:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> *300K
19:21:56 <alise> And the game collapsed!
19:22:01 <pikhq> alise: Ah. Well, there must be *something* better...
19:22:12 <alise> pikhq: BEHOLD THE ASP.NET PAIN
19:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Zuu, explain!
19:22:27 <pikhq> Well, there's Wikit; the in-Tcl single-file wiki/web server.
19:22:30 <alise> proto: only infertile people can control all recordkeeping
19:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Wrong channel...
19:22:36 <alise> pikhq: Wikipage?
19:23:12 <pikhq> alise: ... No, the whole wiki is a single file.
19:23:12 <alise> pikhq: Why don't you play Agora anymore btw?
19:23:18 <alise> pikhq: I meant, the wiki.tcl.tk page for it.
19:23:23 <pikhq> alise: Oh.
19:23:31 <pikhq> wiki.tcl.tk/1
19:23:55 <impomatic> I've just been playing with Tcl
19:24:17 <nooga> alise: when you plan to show some bits of this golfed roguelike?
19:24:41 <alise> pikhq: /1? old page!
19:24:43 <alise> does wiki.tcl.tk run on it?
19:24:44 <Gregor> impomatic: FukYorBrane isn't there :(
19:24:44 <pikhq> alise: I don't play Agora because... Uh. I don't.
19:24:47 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
19:24:47 <alise> or did it in the past?
19:24:52 <alise> pikhq: You used to play Agora :P
19:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, he's shown bits of it before.
19:24:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:24:56 <alise> nooga: I have; want the current version?
19:24:58 <pikhq> alise: It has always run on Wikit.
19:25:12 <pikhq> They believe in eating their own dog food. :)
19:25:21 -!- augur has joined.
19:25:33 <alise> nooga:
19:25:35 <alise> vagrant.py http://pastie.org/1205917.txt?key=qvb1dnfruxbofgx4xmpog
19:25:39 <alise> debug.py http://pastie.org/1205918.txt?key=hpfmpbouu9kh8ki3kwgta
19:25:45 <alise> Run debug.py if you make any changes; it lets you see exceptions.
19:25:51 <ais523> Gregor: I still think that starting with 0, followed by defect, followed by a very very very long loop, is a breaking strategy in FYB
19:26:01 <ais523> because it causes your IP to move faster than the enemy pointer's speed of light
19:26:04 <alise> And yes, monsters do disappear if you walk into them; and yes, they do walk randomly. For now.
19:26:15 <ais523> thus, you then have unlimited time to track them down, unless they're using the same strategy
19:26:26 <ais523> there is a counter-strategy, but it sucks against anything else...
19:26:37 <Gregor> ais523: Then PROVE IT.
19:26:45 <Gregor> ais523: logicex-2 still stands as king of the hill!
19:26:51 <ais523> oh right, the hill's still up
19:26:52 <alise> illogicex
19:29:49 <Gregor> The Haskell wiki is not written in Haskell.
19:29:53 <Gregor> WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HASKELL?
19:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> It says that they were lazy and just used MediaWiki.
19:30:08 <Gregor> Perhaps that using it to write super-stateful things such as wikis is a form of torture?
19:30:12 <pikhq> That MediaWiki is awesome.
19:30:18 <alise> <pikhq> That MediaWiki is awesome.
19:30:20 <alise> Blatantly false.g
19:30:21 <alise> *false.
19:30:28 <impomatic> Gregor: I'll add FYB at some point.  Unless you want to add it?
19:30:29 <alise> Gregor: there are many wikis in haskell, but if they had written one in haskell
19:30:32 <alise> you'd be saying:
19:30:36 <alise> "Toootally NIH"
19:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, it is written in Haskell, but the code is so lazy it just calls MW.
19:31:16 <pikhq> Gregor: It's not that painful in Haskell. It's just that you should probably either abstract or use a different language.
19:32:13 <alise> <pikhq> Gregor: It's not that painful in Haskell. It's just that you should probably either abstract or use a different language.
19:32:16 <alise> Rather than write a wiki?
19:32:20 <alise> I don't understand
19:32:28 <alise> *understand.
19:32:31 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean "for writing super-stateful things".
19:32:36 <alise> Ah.
19:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> What about that continuation-based server thingy?
19:35:05 <alise> pikhq: so wikit is tclkit?
19:35:07 <alise> that seems chaeting
19:35:24 <alise> or wait
19:35:27 <alise> is tclkit just a tcl interpreter bundle?
19:36:07 * alise wonders what TclVfs is
19:36:22 <alise> pikhq: You know of Rebol?
19:36:55 <pikhq> alise: Vaguely.
19:36:59 <impomatic> egobot: wiki_test [>[-]-]
19:37:03 <pikhq> alise: Tclkit is just a Tcl interpreter bundle.
19:37:18 <ais523> Gregor: I'm having trouble uploading my breaking FYB program to a pastebin, it's around a megabyte long
19:37:31 <impomatic> I've been playing with activestate Tcl.
19:37:49 <alise> ais523: filebin?
19:37:59 <alise> pikhq: Rebol is quite cool. Similar to Tcl in a way.
19:37:59 <ais523> egobot wouldn't be able to read it, would it?
19:38:05 <impomatic> Is EgoBot working?
19:38:11 <alise> ais523: why not?
19:38:14 <alise> it's still sent in the http body
19:38:18 <ais523> hmm, perhaps
19:38:23 <alise> try it
19:38:25 <ais523> impomatic: yes, but it uses ! for commands
19:38:29 <alise> i bet it ignores the attachment header
19:38:31 <pikhq> alise: TclVfs is the Tcl virtual filesystem layer.
19:38:37 <ais523> !bf_txtgen test
19:38:39 <alise> (egobot)
19:38:41 <pikhq> alise: TclKit can include a filesystem image bundled with it, mount via TclVfs, and voila -- single-file distribution of your program.
19:38:44 <alise> pikhq: That I had already gathered.
19:38:53 <alise> pikhq: Ah.
19:38:58 <alise> pikhq: Does Wikit do that?
19:39:02 <pikhq> Yes.
19:39:04 <alise> If so: totally cheating.
19:39:06 <pikhq> Well, it can.
19:39:07 <alise> pikhq: You said single-file. :P
19:39:23 <pikhq> That said single file is an archive is beside the point. :P
19:39:33 <ais523> !help
19:39:40 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:39:42 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it's only using the archive for... Archiving the wiki itself, though.
19:39:43 <alise> pikhq: So it's actually like ten files, I bet. :P
19:39:43 <ais523> there we go
19:39:45 <alise> Oh.
19:39:46 <alise> Okay then.
19:39:50 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++[>+>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>++.<-.+.<+. [73]
19:39:55 <ais523> impomatic: it's working
19:40:34 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957059
19:40:46 <ais523> I reduced it to 140000 bytes, should still be enough to beat existing programs
19:41:00 <ais523> (there are numerous ways to improve it, this is just a tech demo)
19:41:15 <ais523> if it loses, it's because I've screwed up the execution somewhere as I've never written FYB
19:41:47 <alise> ais523: why the reluctance to try filebin.ca?
19:42:01 <pikhq> alise: Oh, it's more than 1 file in the archive, but only because it can *also* run as a CGI script or as a Tk program for browsing said wiki.
19:42:08 <ais523> because I was already working on pastebin.ca at the time
19:42:11 <alise> pikhq: Bah!
19:42:17 <ais523> and besides, I'm not sure how efficient the FYB interp is
19:42:38 <pikhq> alise: Hey, it's pretty spiffy to be able to run the wiki on localhost and just browse it.
19:42:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:42:42 <Gregor> It shouldn't be this slow, this is weird ...
19:42:49 <Gregor> Haw
19:42:52 <ais523> and shouldn't do that badly, either
19:43:05 <Gregor> Here's a hint:
19:43:06 <ais523> perhaps I misinterpreted what [] does while defected?
19:43:09 <Gregor> You have to actually WIN
19:43:12 <ais523> the spec's rather unclear
19:43:17 <ais523> Gregor: I know, there's a loop at the end that should win
19:43:19 <alise> pikhq: BAH YOU TCL GUYS MAKING GOOD CODE
19:43:26 <ais523> by NOPing the entire enemy program, then replacing it with bombs
19:43:35 <Gregor> wtf, why isn't the report posted ...
19:43:37 <ais523> hmm, theory, it's NOPing the bombs as it lays them
19:43:39 <alise> I bet EgoBot gave up before reaching it
19:44:21 <Gregor> 17435 codu      20   0  320m  97m 6172 S 91.3  9.6   0:38.15 trac
19:44:23 <Gregor> WTF TRAC
19:44:27 <Gregor> Why are you taking 99% CPU, Trac
19:45:02 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957069
19:45:03 <Gregor> Why must Trac always be the bane of my existence?
19:45:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:45:17 <ais523> hmm
19:46:10 <ais523> Gregor: ah, my program's just drawing with every other program
19:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so how should it work?
19:46:12 <ais523> due to the interp timing out
19:46:21 <ais523> it's working perfectly, just the interp doesn't handle the brilliance of my program
19:46:27 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Be right back.).
19:46:29 <Gregor> Interp timing out? It gives you 1 million iterations or something.
19:46:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it just moves the IP faster than the enemy's pointer's speed of light
19:46:46 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ...How?
19:46:54 <ais523> by using a [] loop with the current element set to 0
19:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it skips forward.
19:48:50 * ais523 replaces the kill stuff at the end with the simple bomber example from the README
19:49:05 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957070
19:49:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:50:17 <ais523> report.txt is blank
19:50:22 * ais523 tries again
19:50:25 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957070
19:50:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:50:30 <ais523> I think EgoBot just doesn't handle the program
19:51:12 <ais523> still, this doesn't mean that the /principle/ is broken
19:51:18 <Gregor> Hahahaha
19:51:26 <Gregor> There's a super-secret program length limit apparently :P
19:52:15 <Gregor> Maaaan I was a shitty coder back in '05 X-D
19:52:30 <Gregor> Make it 32k or less and see what happens :P
19:52:55 <Gregor> (I should rewrite this ... )
19:54:07 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076
19:54:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:54:16 <ais523> hmm...
19:54:27 <ais523> report.txt blank again
19:54:28 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076
19:54:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:54:39 <ais523> and again
19:54:41 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076
19:54:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:54:59 <ais523> and again, I give up trying to figure out what's going on here
19:55:07 <ais523> that's only 31 and a bit K...
19:55:25 <Gregor> That's not the issue any more.
19:55:26 <Gregor> It loads.
19:55:31 <Gregor> Wait for the report to finish generating.
19:56:08 <ais523> it's taking a while
19:56:21 <Gregor> It's not actually doing anything it seems :P
19:56:26 <Gregor> Crufty piece o' garbage
19:56:29 <Gregor> *kicks EgoBot*
19:56:42 <Gregor> !fyb nothing []
19:57:23 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_nothing: 23.1
19:57:23 <Gregor> I don't understand why the BFJoust hill is so stable and FYB isn't, when they're basically the same software ...
19:57:36 <ais523> maybe it's the interp itself
19:57:43 <alise> Gregor: Did you rewrite the FYB hill?
19:57:46 <Gregor>  3 |  0  +  0     +  0  +  -  -  +  -  0  -  -  +  0 |  25.3 |   0 | ais523_lightspeed1.fyb
19:57:48 <alise> Or is the Joust one based on the FYB one?
19:58:17 <ais523> Gregor: clearly 32k isn't enough for complete immunity from everything
19:58:21 <Gregor> alise: The Joust one is based on the FYB one. Probably improved. If anybody cared I'd fix it though :P
19:58:30 <ais523> given that I used a /very/ slow but relatively sure method of bombing the opponent
19:58:33 <Gregor> ais523: Good excuse there, Mr. My-Strategy-Doesn't-Work-Waaaah :P
19:58:48 <alise> ais523: why not run it locally?
19:58:54 <ais523> Gregor: the strategy can be mathematically proven to work, given a long enough size advantage over the opponent
19:59:00 <ais523> alise: because then Gregor would never believe me
19:59:11 <alise> yes he would
19:59:19 <alise> he's joking
19:59:29 <Gregor> I just don't want FYB to be broken X-P
20:01:06 <ais523> btw, a long string of NOPs at the start of the program works just as well, possibly even more effectively
20:01:30 <ais523> because unless the opponent starts with an equally long string of >s, you outspeed them by moving at lightspeed while the opponent has to do some sort of logic
20:03:01 * Gregor is presently trying to figure out why logicex-2 wins.
20:03:15 <alise> oh shit
20:03:19 <alise> my satiation counter wraps around
20:03:22 <alise> $:909               T:808               S:0                 HP:100 (345)
20:03:24 <alise> after i ate some food
20:03:29 <ais523> oops
20:03:30 <alise> good thing i have all those potions
20:03:40 <ais523> is there a potion counter?
20:03:42 <alise> (that's 345 hp i can add on to mine, 20 per turn)
20:03:47 <Vorpal> how can anyone possibly manage worse manual translation to English than the automated translation of English with google translate...
20:03:47 <alise> ais523: yes, after the HP count in ()s
20:03:53 <alise> q moves 20 from that to the hp
20:03:55 <alise> taking one turn
20:03:58 <ais523> ah, I see
20:04:08 <alise> whoops
20:04:10 <ais523> exactly the same notation as NetHack, entirely different meaning
20:04:11 <alise> didn't take a potion first turn
20:04:14 <alise> died summarily
20:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "<ais523> Gregor: the strategy can be mathematically proven to work, given a long enough size advantage over the opponent"
20:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Argh.
20:04:32 <alise> ais523: it'll probably be HP:now/max (potion) if i add a max hp
20:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "Moshe Sipper invented non-uniform cellular automata, which are cellular automata in which the CA-rules are local to each cell and can be copied onto neighbouring cells. Non-uniform CA rules can be designed to model conservation of mass."
20:04:38 <alise>     if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D();endwin();print'You survived for '+N+' turns and had $'+G+' when you died.';exit()
20:04:38 <alise> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
20:04:39 <alise> whoops.
20:05:00 <ais523> you can do that in Java...
20:05:15 <ais523> and if even /Java/ lets you do something, it must be pretty nonesoteric
20:05:17 * Vorpal invents a silly addition function.
20:06:09 * Phantom_Hoover invents a silly multiplication function.
20:06:12 <fizzie> Is the Python % operator still the way to do formatted output, or did they do something different there? (I mean, I know it works, but if it's somehow unclean.)
20:06:24 <alise>  if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D();endwin();print'You survived for %s turns and had $%%s when you died.'%N%G;exit()
20:06:29 <alise> It's shorter than %(N,G)!
20:07:24 <Sgeo> Golfing in Python?
20:07:37 <alise> yes
20:07:46 <alise> Sgeo: i will now give you a heart attack:
20:07:50 <alise> W=[32]*1000+[36,81]*5+[37]*3+[35]*50+[33]
20:07:52 <alise>    q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:07:53 <alise>  s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));global V;V();V=lambda:1;s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
20:08:07 <Sgeo> *gibber*
20:08:18 <alise>  w.update(q);U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1)
20:08:22 <alise>  w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y);D()
20:08:28 <alise>  a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
20:08:30 <Sgeo> Oh, fun fact: I posted a link to something. Warrigal posted on Reddit. Warrigal got almost 1k karma from it
20:08:33 <alise>   if P and L+20<301:q=min(P,20);L+=q;U+=q*3*(U>0);P-=q;T()
20:08:35 <alise> The end.
20:08:50 <alise> Sgeo: let me guess, you're angry at him now.
20:08:57 <alise> and yes, it's that obvious
20:09:01 <ais523> I'd be happy for him if that happened
20:09:07 <alise> sgeo wouldn't
20:09:10 <Sgeo> Not _actually_ angry. Joking angry
20:09:11 <ais523> alise: where's the redraw in that?
20:09:26 <Sgeo> And angry at myself for not thinking of posting it myself
20:09:33 <alise> ais523: that's not the whole code, just particularly abhorrent snippets
20:09:38 <Vorpal> Render the addition as an image, the usual way humans write such downs (numbers above each other and such). Font should be Comic Sans if that is available on the system. Now do OCR on the image for each column, writing the result to the relevant place below that column. If you get a carry, update the image above the next column as usual. Continue until done. Then read the result line back using OCR.
20:09:41 <yorick> alise: that's horrible :P
20:09:48 <alise> yorick: that's awesome.
20:09:55 <yorick> awesomely horrible
20:10:03 <Vorpal> alise, cool code above :P
20:10:08 <alise> Sgeo: you mean the kind of joking angry that means actually angry? :p
20:10:10 <alise> Vorpal: quite.
20:10:30 <Vorpal> alise, is there any IOPCC?
20:10:31 <ais523> I like using nonalphabetic variables in Perl so you don't need to use a space between them and a keyword
20:11:11 <yorick> wait...that's actually python?
20:11:27 * Sgeo misread ais523 as zzo38
20:11:30 <Vorpal> alise, why does this need to be two lines:
20:11:34 <Vorpal> <alise>  w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y);D()
20:11:34 <Vorpal> <alise>  a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
20:11:36 <ais523> Sgeo: how?
20:11:47 <Sgeo> Nick colors, I think
20:11:48 <ais523> Vorpal: they aren't consecutive, is my guess
20:11:52 <Vorpal> ah
20:12:04 <alise> Vorpal: separate
20:12:07 <alise> it's the Best Of
20:12:15 <alise> yorick: yup, python
20:12:19 <Vorpal> alise, ah. What remains to be written?
20:12:26 <ais523> I still think you should use thin-spaces to golf it even further
20:12:34 <yorick> alise: :(
20:12:38 <alise> Vorpal: it has the need to eat, turn count, money, HP, potions, walls, full movement...
20:12:40 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt python will parse that?
20:12:48 <alise> Vorpal: to actually be fun in a sense just requires a little bit of dumb AI code
20:13:03 * yorick should create an irssi script that will color the nicks the way I want
20:13:04 <Vorpal> alise, and the TARDIS?
20:13:11 <alise> even now it's fun to play and see if the RNG hates you (i.e. see how long you can survive; food doesn't last long)
20:13:13 <alise> (and rack up cash)
20:13:25 <alise> Vorpal: not at that stage yet
20:13:32 <Vorpal> alise, ah
20:13:39 <alise> Vorpal: you can have the current code if you want
20:13:43 <alise> the Qs even move!
20:13:45 <cpressey> yorick: you can script this thing?  bitchen
20:13:46 <alise> oh yeah it has hallucination too
20:13:49 <Vorpal> alise, also about  the food, surely if the world is infinite it shouldn't be impossible to find more?
20:13:50 <alise> 1/15 chance of bad food
20:13:53 <Gregor> laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
20:13:58 <Gregor> ais523: You know there is no '-', right?
20:14:04 <alise> Vorpal: you have limited satiation, though
20:14:12 <yorick> cpressey: I probably could, but I hate perl
20:14:14 <alise> Vorpal: so can you survive long enough to get to it?
20:14:15 <ais523> Gregor: oh, right
20:14:17 <alise> (yes, almost always)
20:14:18 <Vorpal> alise, ah
20:14:20 <ais523> should have been [+], I wasn't thinking
20:14:22 <alise> (but still, it's easy to lose track)
20:14:24 <ais523> (it doesn't matter for that program)
20:14:29 <alise> Vorpal: max. 300 turns before you lose 50 hp/turn
20:14:35 <alise> (maximum satiation is 300)
20:14:42 <Gregor> ais523: Uhh, yes it does, you'll be in a tight worthless loop.
20:14:42 <alise> and food doesn't always replenish it fully
20:14:45 <Vorpal> alise, ouch, that is a bit too nasty
20:14:56 <ais523> Gregor: I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's + or -
20:14:57 <yorick> (if you convert a random wav file to text, you get executable perl)
20:15:01 <ais523> (nor how tight the loop is, using that strategy)
20:15:03 <alise> Vorpal: that's why you keep your HP up so that once you lose 50 you have enough time to get to food :)
20:15:12 <Gregor> ais523: Right, so fix it :P
20:15:20 <ais523> am doing so
20:15:24 <Vorpal> alise, can't you carry food?
20:15:26 <alise> guh, my HP wrapped arround to 4
20:15:36 <alise> Vorpal: nope, i avoid state like the plague :D
20:15:41 <alise> Vorpal: most things are done directly on the grid
20:15:43 <Vorpal> alise, aww
20:15:45 <alise> for instance there is no model behind the object grid
20:15:50 <alise> walking onto something makes it disappear
20:16:00 <alise> and monsters are moved by actually looking at the visible screen and moving them around
20:16:03 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't just 'EM or 'ELM that is needed, it is 'EILM
20:16:16 <alise> slav, Super Lotsa Additions Vagrant
20:16:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: So non-uniform cellular automata are... neighbouring state machines.
20:16:35 <Vorpal> alise, how does hallu work then?
20:16:42 <Vorpal> alise, it permanently changes the grid?
20:16:44 <alise> "L%=301" fun fact, this does not impose a max health!
20:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, more or less, I suppose.
20:16:57 <Vorpal> alise, oh?
20:17:05 <cpressey> just make the playfield layout non-uniform too, and it's... a big state machine.
20:17:06 <alise> no, it makes you drop health rapidly if you get too much :P
20:17:12 <Vorpal> alise, ah :P
20:17:14 <alise> i now have 4 hp due to no fault of my own
20:17:16 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, not helpful.
20:17:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: feels like a decay of theory
20:17:39 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, CAs are just big state machines.
20:17:46 <Vorpal> alise, evil, surely you can make L=min(L,300)  shorter somehow?
20:17:53 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: part of what makes them special is their uniform structure
20:18:04 <alise> Vorpal: i'm just not doing it, i'm sure i can check L<301 elsewhere
20:18:13 <alise> Vorpal: L-=25*(L and S<1)
20:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, you could simulate it with loads and loads of states.
20:18:19 <Vorpal> alise, as for the playfield, does it remember previous screens?
20:18:20 <alise> that is, "if L>0 and S==0, decrease L by 25"
20:18:23 <Vorpal> I presume so?
20:18:27 <alise> "U+=U>0"
20:18:30 <Vorpal> so the playfield grows over time
20:18:31 <alise> if we are hallucinating, increase the hallucination counter
20:18:33 <alise> Vorpal: yes
20:18:37 <alise> explore too much and you run out of memory
20:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever.
20:18:49 <alise> "S-=S>0"
20:18:53 <alise> If we have any satiation, lose one point of it.
20:19:09 <alise> "X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)" <-- figure out what this does (not having been there when we worked it out) and get a prize
20:19:28 <cpressey> alise: chase
20:19:35 <alise> cpressey: nope
20:19:38 <alise> it scrolls the playfield
20:19:40 <Vorpal> <alise> "S-=S>0" <--- err
20:19:43 <Vorpal> how does that work?
20:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I was getting to that?
20:19:48 <Phantom_Hoover> *!
20:19:49 <alise> lawl
20:19:51 <cpressey> oh well no prize for me
20:19:57 <alise> Vorpal: (S>0) = True equiv-to 1
20:20:01 <alise> (S>0) = False equiv-to 0
20:20:04 <alise> S -= 1 decreases S
20:20:05 <cpressey> and i ruined Phantom_Hoover's chance!
20:20:06 <Vorpal> alise, ahahaha
20:20:06 <alise> S -= 0 does nothing
20:20:11 <cpressey> well no.  alise did
20:20:28 <alise> my hallu is so pitiful, you can just keep telling the game to redraw and it works :D
20:20:36 <alise> now what would be cool is hallu that actually permanently fixed the map!
20:20:40 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. <-- what about biological ones?
20:20:43 <cpressey> alise: that's how hallu works in real life too
20:20:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as cool/
20:20:54 <cpressey> you just keep redrawing and you can tell what's real
20:20:54 <alise> lawl
20:20:55 <alise> i mean
20:20:57 <alise> you can redraw
20:20:59 <alise> without taking turns
20:21:01 <alise> and it re-hallucinates
20:21:07 <alise> meaning if you hold down enter it's easy to see what's what
20:21:17 <alise> <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. <-- what about biological ones?
20:21:25 <alise> well i don't know if mechanical self-replicators enjoy replicating as much...
20:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/ctf20/dphil_2005/Thesis/Chapter1/Chapter1Figs/breivik2001.pdf
20:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Much cooler.
20:21:40 <Vorpal> alise, XD
20:21:41 <alise> Oh yeah baby, feed me that molten metal so that I can assemble a copy of myself.
20:21:53 <alise> Yes, you totally assemble computers with MOLTEN METAL
20:21:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, has any been built btw?
20:22:01 <alise> Also I suppose that's a bit of a role reversal there.
20:22:07 <Vorpal> gah, dns seems broken
20:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, read the PDF, I suppose.
20:22:12 <Vorpal> nothing loads
20:22:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, give me server ip!
20:22:20 <alise> hee, i think i'm a wall
20:22:56 <cpressey> so a mechanical replicator would need to be "smart" enough to assemble a copy of itself -- so it would need a relatively powerful computer -- so it would need to build integrated circuits
20:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, with whois or what?
20:23:05 <cpressey> which is a bit fucking nontrivial
20:23:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, host presumably
20:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, not that complex.
20:23:27 <cpressey> i could see it not needing a trult integrated circuit
20:23:30 <cpressey> *truly
20:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, 139.184.49.162
20:23:38 <Vorpal> hm
20:23:43 <Vorpal> lets hope it isn't using vhosts
20:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> It works with lots of little plastic nucleotides, though, not true self-replication.
20:24:10 <Vorpal> ah works
20:24:12 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's still pretty cool.
20:24:14 <ais523> cpressey: relay logic might work
20:24:24 <ais523> several telephone exchanges work on that basis
20:24:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, it depends on what you define as the raw material
20:24:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, imagine an universe where stuff like ARM cpus occur naturally :P
20:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> In this case, the raw material is elements designed to stick together magnetically in an appropriate way.
20:25:31 <Vorpal> oh and li-ion batteries are found in certain geological formations
20:26:58 <cpressey> SAND.  all you have to start is SAND.
20:27:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Penrose did a similar but less sophisticated system with 2 elements in 1 dimension.
20:27:08 <cpressey> THAT will impress me.
20:27:32 <cpressey> Er, SAND and IRON.
20:27:45 <cpressey> Hard to make motors out of just sand.
20:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Given an infinite series of A B... a single cluster will tend to self-replicate.
20:28:01 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, taking the easy way out, eh?
20:28:17 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:28:37 <alise> cpressey: MAKE IRON OUT OF SAND
20:29:31 <alise> uh oh, i just ate rotten food when already hallucinating
20:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> MAKE SILICON AND DOPE IT
20:29:42 <alise> although in some cases that can actually cure you.
20:29:45 <cpressey> alise: RADIOACTIVE MOBILE CHIP FACTORY
20:29:53 <alise> in fact, in all cases.
20:29:54 <alise> well some.
20:30:00 <Gregor> ais523: I'M WAITIN'
20:30:32 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097
20:30:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 25.3
20:30:39 <ais523> sorry, closed the tab rather than submitting it for some reason
20:30:47 <alise> wait no
20:30:48 <cpressey> \o/
20:30:48 <alise> always hurts you
20:30:48 <myndzi\>   |
20:30:49 <myndzi\>   |\
20:30:55 <cpressey> a positive score
20:30:57 <ais523> Gregor: how do you get the report to come up?
20:31:05 <ais523> cpressey: that's the same score it got last time, I think
20:31:07 <ais523> the scoring thing is broken
20:31:14 <cpressey> i guess i missed that
20:31:21 <Gregor> ais523: Idonno, I just submitted something else then it worked that time :P
20:31:21 <cpressey> i nly remember 0.0's
20:31:25 <Gregor> !fyb nothing []
20:31:28 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_nothing: 23.1
20:31:34 <Gregor> ais523: I'll have to debug that tonight.
20:32:19 <alise> quick, what's the range of printable ascii?
20:32:28 <Vorpal> <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097 <-- what was % now again?
20:32:34 <ais523> NOP
20:32:38 <Vorpal> ah
20:32:39 <ais523> alise: 32-126
20:32:42 <alise> ais523: thanks
20:32:47 <Vorpal> ais523, and @ ?
20:32:51 <alise>    q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:32:53 <alise> Hallu: too wimpy.
20:32:57 <Gregor> ais523: Ohhhh, it seems to get confused if you use a name that's already in use X_X
20:33:01 <ais523> Vorpal: defect (start analysing your own program)
20:33:03 <alise>    q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,r(32,126)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:33:05 <alise> That's more like it.
20:33:07 <ais523> Gregor: OK...?
20:33:08 <alise> ais523: is 126 valid too?
20:33:13 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1a http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097
20:33:14 <Vorpal> ais523, hm okay
20:33:19 <ais523> alise: yes, ~
20:33:22 <alise> ais523: valid as in printable. righ
20:33:23 <alise> *right
20:33:24 <ais523> 127 is a control char, though
20:33:46 <Gregor> ais523: I'll have to look into this weirdness :P
20:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1a: 21.1
20:34:11 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: So eventually you'll support four variable scopes: message scope, nick scope, channel scope, and global variables.
20:34:11 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: I disagree!
20:34:14 <Vorpal> ais523, why resubmit the same thing?
20:34:21 <ais523> Vorpal: see above
20:34:22 <cpressey> I guess I could even have a server scope, but...
20:34:38 <fizzie> Lightspeedia, Wikipeedia.
20:34:44 <Vorpal> ais523, above where?
20:34:55 <Gregor> ais523: I'll fix the borkitude on Saturdayish ...
20:35:03 <Vorpal> ais523, scanned last screensful, saw nothing
20:35:07 <cpressey> Lightspeedia is an encyclopedia made entirely out of light.
20:35:18 <cpressey> *lights.
20:35:35 <ais523> Vorpal: <Gregor> ais523: Ohhhh, it seems to get confused if you use a name that's already in use X_X
20:35:40 <Vorpal> ah
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> mzstorkipiwanbot, wha?
20:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Since when were you here?
20:37:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: since this morning (my time)
20:38:06 <cpressey> So, um, 6 hours ish ago
20:38:33 <cpressey> and its nick should really be "mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot" but that's too long
20:40:06 * alise has been hallu for the past N minutes
20:40:25 <alise> cpressey: Wait, are you actually doing that IRC-language thing?
20:40:36 <cpressey> alise: i have no time but yes
20:40:47 <Gregor> cpressey:
20:40:51 <Gregor> Err
20:40:59 <Gregor> Wait, why am I back in crappy Colloquy anyway ...
20:41:02 <alise> $:2689              T:2307              S:252               HP:300 (380)
20:41:04 <alise> Gregor: XD
20:41:38 <Gregor> cpressey: Will it have MEMORY SAFETY WITHOUT GC?
20:41:56 <cpressey> i need to rewrite what i have so far of the bot in some language less unappealing to me than python
20:41:59 <alise> Memory safety without GC: No free(), all memory leaks
20:42:26 <cpressey> Gregor: no.  it will be unsafe in the sense that anyone could come along and change your global variables anyway.
20:42:35 <Gregor> alise: Apparently you missed cpressey's and my big argument about this, resulting in Eightebed which does fit my requirements but is so terrible :P
20:42:38 <alise> HOW AM I LOSING HP
20:42:40 <alise> oh poisoned food
20:42:41 <alise> duh
20:42:47 <alise> Gregor: I did not miss it
20:42:55 <alise> Gregor: I named Eightebed
20:43:04 <Gregor> alise: WHY
20:43:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, what irc language thingy?
20:43:18 <Vorpal> hm dns seems to work again
20:43:21 <alise> Gregor: http://catseye.tc/projects/eightebed/doc/website_eightebed.html; /Legal Issues/
20:43:40 <alise> "To have a literate specification written in SUPER ITALIAN, thus giving all programs the power of UNMATCHED PROPHETIC SNEEZING."
20:44:21 <Sgeo> Does reference counting count as GC?
20:45:00 <Gregor> Sgeo: It doesn't fit the requirements I set out because it leaks.
20:45:00 * Sgeo goes to try Samorost
20:45:16 <Gregor> Regardless of whether it counts as GC or not.
20:45:18 <yorick> Sgeo: I think it does
20:45:32 <cpressey> Gregor: unless your language forbids circular structures.
20:45:37 <Gregor> Alas, poor yorick, whoTF is this guy.
20:45:45 <Gregor> cpressey: Then your language is made of FAIL.
20:45:54 <fizzie> Perl folks call what they have a GC, and it's reference-counting. (With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)
20:45:59 <alise> $:3151              T:2859              S:291               HP:286 (324)
20:46:00 <cpressey> Gregor: Then all functional languages are made of FAIL.
20:46:08 <alise> I'll die now, since the game is insufferably boring.
20:46:22 <cpressey> fizzie: Wait, what?  Why GC at the end?  The OS will reclaim it all anyway!
20:46:23 <Sgeo> alise, the game you made?
20:46:28 <Gregor> cpressey: Yes, they are X-P
20:46:34 <alise> cpressey: x=1:x
20:46:35 <alise> but i agree, circular structures are iffy
20:46:50 <alise> i read some stuff about a language lacking them, was interesting.
20:47:07 <yorick> Gregor: ....
20:47:12 <fizzie> cpressey: The two official motivations I've seen are (a) making sure all finalizers get called at least once, and (b) for the case where the interpreter is embedded in some other process that's not going to terminate that point, and might in fact restart it again.
20:47:14 <cpressey> alise: OK, maybe not *all* functional languages, depending on implementation details etc, but you catch my meaning
20:47:15 <yorick> omg Gregor doesn't know me!
20:47:48 <cpressey> fizzie: ok, that's fair i suppose
20:48:02 <olsner> yorick: neither do I
20:48:17 <yorick> olsner: you should
20:48:18 <cpressey> yorick: nor do i, except that you've been here the past few days
20:48:27 <yorick> which is about all you could know about me
20:48:34 <yorick> I've been here since saturday
20:48:58 <Gregor> SO SECRETIVE
20:49:23 <cpressey> yorick: so what's your story, Dark Stranger who Wandered into Town Recently?
20:49:24 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:49:28 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, and also because Perl's "ithreads" mean each thread gets a completely separate copy of the whole interpreter, and they want those not to leak either.
20:49:35 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host).
20:49:35 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:49:52 <yorick> cpressey: I knew about this channel for some time, but never bothered to join...and then I got an assignment that got brainfuck
20:49:56 <fizzie> "A more complete garbage collection strategy will be implemented at a future date."
20:50:03 <Gregor> What's really incredible about refcounting is that it's usually slower than even a naive mark-and-sweep :P
20:50:07 <yorick> and then I saw the beauty if this channel (saw beyond Vorpal)
20:50:14 <yorick> of*
20:50:36 <yorick> and now I'm idling here
20:50:36 <Gregor> alise: Looks like you've got a Vorpal-hatred buddy X-P
20:50:37 <cpressey> Gregor: but responsiveness is more predictable (go the arguments)
20:50:45 <Vorpal> yorick, err what?
20:51:03 <Gregor> cpressey: Eh, fair enough.
20:51:18 <yorick> Vorpal: oh...nothing
20:51:24 <Gregor> X-D
20:51:27 <yorick> Vorpal: you scare new people away
20:51:33 * Gregor <3 hatred
20:51:46 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
20:52:22 <Vorpal> <alise> i read some stuff about a language lacking them, was interesting. <-- um, lots of functional languages lack circular structures
20:52:55 <cpressey> Gregor: except it's not really true.  i unlink a structure -- i have to check if it's an orphan -- i have to traverse it -- oh wait, how big is this thing?
20:53:00 <Vorpal> yorick, heh?
20:53:02 <cpressey> excpet i think there might be tricks around that
20:53:19 <alise> "(With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)" ...why? For embedding?
20:53:21 <yorick> Gregor: especially against Vorpal eh
20:53:33 <Vorpal> alise, scheme without setf! and similar wouldn't allow circular structures I think?
20:53:40 <Gregor> yorick: No, I feed on hatred in general.
20:53:42 <cpressey> isomorphic to needing a sweep phase, i guess
20:53:48 * yorick hugs Gregor
20:53:55 <Gregor> ARRRRRRRRGH
20:54:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: And no optional laziness.
20:54:02 <Vorpal> <alise> "(With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)" ...why? For embedding? <-- um look above
20:54:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh true
20:54:12 <cpressey> alise: yes, he said embedding.  and finalizing.
20:54:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm pretty sure you can't get circular structures in erlang btw
20:55:01 <cpressey> nor Pixley fwiw
20:55:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm not familiar with that one. One of yours?
20:55:26 <cpressey> Vorpal: yes
20:55:39 <cpressey> Vorpal: it's Scheme minus Scheme
20:55:49 <Vorpal> cpressey, the null set?
20:56:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: no, more like Garfield minus Garfield
20:56:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, ah
20:56:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: YOU SEE HOW THE ONE WORD CAN HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS
20:56:31 <Vorpal> :)
20:56:40 <olsner> hmm, there's an interesting paradigm, every input is an incorrect program
20:57:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, indeed. I admit I'm not 100% sure how to interpret the meanings in this case though
20:57:36 <olsner> which would be the effect if the set of correct programs is the null set
20:57:54 * pikhq found his in-C SKI interpreter
20:57:57 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ python debug.py
20:57:57 <alise> You survived for 3176 turns and had $3505 when you died.
20:57:58 <pikhq> Good God that's crazy.
20:58:28 <Vorpal> olsner, depends on what you do on "incorrect" data. For brainfuck-brainfuck every program would be a nop
20:58:29 <alise> THAT MEANS I WIN
20:58:29 <alise> More money than turns!
20:58:33 <pikhq> I had forgotten how mad this code was.
20:58:52 <Vorpal> olsner, unless the definition of what you do on incorrect data is part of the language that got substracted away
20:58:55 <olsner> Vorpal: well, the interpreter should print an error and abort
20:59:10 <pikhq> Especially where I copy a thunk before it's evaluated so that I can do an infinite list of input.
20:59:15 <Vorpal> olsner, in which case all programming languages minus themselves are the same programming language
20:59:16 <olsner> supposedly any computation would have to be in controlling the kind of error you get
20:59:25 <Vorpal> olsner, hm
20:59:37 <Vorpal> olsner, "how do we make this TC" ;)
21:00:02 <olsner> how to find TC-ness or making something TC is all I ever think about
21:00:10 <Vorpal> alise, debug.py?
21:00:37 <Vorpal> olsner, hm
21:00:41 <olsner> pikhq: sounds awesome... is this on the internet?
21:01:18 -!- alise_ has joined.
21:01:48 <pikhq> olsner: Lemme tar it up.
21:01:55 <olsner> for instance: do type-level calculation, cause a type mismatch, the "expected foo, found <...>" prints the output you've produced
21:02:16 <olsner> but that would be a slightly boring way to do it
21:02:30 <alise_> 12:46:22 <cpressey> fizzie: Wait, what?  Why GC at the end?  The OS will reclaim it all anyway!
21:02:35 <alise_> holy shit i missed this and everything after
21:02:38 <olsner> (oh, and the point would be that you have to make the type system so that there are no correct programs)
21:02:55 <olsner> I don't quite know how to do that
21:03:15 <alise_> 12:50:36 <Gregor> alise: Looks like you've got a Vorpal-hatred buddy X-P
21:03:15 <pikhq> I really, really need to get a webhost.
21:03:17 <alise_> that makes two!
21:03:28 <olsner> pikhq: just put it on github?
21:03:37 <olsner> it works for pages and code anyway
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise> min(L+min(P,20),300)
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise> min(L+P,L+20,300)
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise>  if k=='q':
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise>   q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300)
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise>   if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T()
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise>   continue
21:04:38 <alise_> <alise> Prizes for golfing this.
21:04:40 <alise_> <alise> Since when is Dwarf Fortress available for Linux?
21:04:57 <olsner> speaking of git: has anything been done in the field of esoteric version control?
21:05:23 <alise_> 13:00:10 <Vorpal> alise, debug.py?
21:05:27 <alise_> vagrant's debug launcher
21:05:39 <alise_> olsner: i think ais523 had some thoughts
21:05:41 <alise_> maybe noti
21:05:42 <alise_> *not
21:05:43 <alise_> i have some thoughts too
21:05:47 <alise_> olsner: as for existing examples
21:05:58 <pikhq> olsner: No. Wants host.
21:06:00 <ais523> alise_: I have, but haven't got much futher
21:06:01 <ais523> *further
21:06:08 <ais523> also, it was a surprisingly non-eso project
21:06:22 <alise_> olsner: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/index.html
21:06:30 <alise_> or http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial-old/arch.html
21:06:36 <alise_> actually
21:06:37 <alise_> just http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial-old/arch.html
21:06:40 <alise_> is the complete, crazy one
21:06:47 <ais523> but I started with the concept of "version control system which can manage any command in any other common DVCS as a special case of one or more of its commands + a UI" and "only has five commands"
21:06:53 <ais523> and then tried to make things fit from there
21:07:01 <alise_> ais523: that's how git is designed
21:07:08 <alise_> except it's more like 10 commands i think
21:07:10 <alise_> maybe 7
21:07:11 <ais523> yes, but git fails at it
21:07:14 <ais523> the 5 is very important
21:07:20 <alise_> that *exact* number? :P
21:07:25 <ais523> also, it fails at doing some things that, say, darcs does trivially
21:07:28 <ais523> and yes, that *exact* number
21:08:30 <olsner> minimalistic version control, I like the sound of it
21:08:36 <alise_> ais523: what about 6?
21:08:37 -!- tombom has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:38 -!- alise has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:42 <ais523> alise_: 6 is not 5
21:08:52 <alise_> you're crazy :D
21:08:53 <ais523> look, you can set arbitrary goals for an esolang, right?
21:08:57 <ais523> why can't you set them for other programs?
21:09:11 <olsner> maybe a place to start is to figure out the counterpart of turing complete for version control
21:09:27 <yorick> esoteric version control!
21:09:45 <ais523> alise_: I do have an idea of the model to use, though, and a name
21:09:50 <ais523> the name is... scapegoat
21:09:54 <Gregor> Moo
21:10:26 <ais523> alise_: <tswett> Who's ə?  Me?
21:10:34 <ais523> ^ what is wrong with Agoran nicknames
21:10:35 <Gregor> Somebody needs to make a 2D competitive programming languages.
21:10:51 <ais523> someone was talking about BeYourFunge, or something like that
21:11:03 <Gregor> Awww, they're naming it after mine.
21:11:30 <alise_> ais523: :D
21:11:40 <alise_> Gregor: I did BeYourFunge, I think
21:11:43 <alise_> BeYorFunge it was I think
21:11:45 <alise_> it didn't work
21:12:07 <Vorpal> alise_, ah ok (wrt debug.py)
21:12:19 <Gregor> Actually, somebody needs to make a 3D competitive programming ENVIRONMENT in which the programs can be written in any arbitrary language, and there's some overarching laws of physics to dictate how one might find another :P
21:12:19 <Vorpal> night →
21:12:25 <alise_> Vorpal: quick, if i give you the latest version will you see how long you can survive?!:!?!?!?!
21:12:29 <Gregor> In other words, we need a space-flight simulator where people write captain programs.
21:13:05 <alise_> > >       > I lower ehird's position on the list by 1, for a fee.
21:13:06 <alise_> :-(
21:13:42 <alise_> ais523: please tell me your model has deduplicative storage as a separate, non-main part
21:13:52 <alise_> (deduplicative = store diffs, not the entire tree, basically, for every revision)
21:13:56 <ais523> alise_: it's an implementation detail
21:14:11 <alise_> well, i'm talking details
21:14:12 <ais523> but the model is more easily implemented by storing diffs, than by storing trees
21:14:25 <ais523> doing it via trees would be awfully complex, except for caching
21:17:05 <alise_> how does it work, then?
21:17:09 <alise_> >:D
21:17:26 <ais523> OK, rough explanation because a) this isn't written down anywhere, and b) I worked it out entirely in my head
21:17:35 <alise_> "Like Feather!"
21:17:37 <ais523> but basically, each line ever added to anything has its own unique ID
21:17:38 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
21:17:44 <alise> ais523: line? how ...
21:17:46 <alise> how kludgy
21:18:14 <ais523> also, indentation increase/decrease counts as a special token on a line of its own, but that's more incidental to the way everything works
21:18:38 <ais523> and it's not the literal text of the line that matters, more its platonic existence
21:18:58 <alise> no, but, being line-based
21:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you talking about?
21:19:07 <ais523> well, it's meant to work like diff
21:19:16 <ais523> lines give a good approximation to how people think of programs
21:19:21 <ais523> you could do it with characters, it'd work just as well
21:19:29 <Gregor> Each byte added has a 128-bit ID.
21:19:30 <ais523> but probably confuse people because it didn't do merges how they wanted
21:20:15 <ais523> now, what's stored in the version control system are diffs, vaguely darcs-like, except that the diffs have a complete context of where they go
21:20:33 <ais523> e.g. "line ab239ca0 added between line 30adb123 and line 8923ad01"
21:21:09 <ais523> they don't need any context (as in unidiff context) other than that, because each line number refers to the line itself, plus its complete history, because every line belongs to the diff where it was added with complete context of where it comes from, etc.
21:22:22 <alise> wait, you have a concept of individual object history?
21:22:26 <alise> not versioning trees?
21:22:26 <ais523> in order to figure out the current state of the version control system, you effectively start with nothing and replay all the diffs until you end up with the files (this is likely to be optimizable, but as-if rule; that's how it works /conceptually/)
21:22:31 <alise> congrats -- you've invented either RCS or CVS
21:22:33 <alise> and I'm not sure which
21:22:44 <ais523> alise: that's the bottom level of abstraction
21:22:46 <alise> ais523: that's how darcs does it
21:22:50 <alise> (wrt the nothing)
21:22:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:22:55 <ais523> yep, darcs was a major inspiration
21:23:01 <Gregor> alise: CVS is just some centralization and network crap on top of RCS.
21:23:03 <ais523> although I didn't do everything exactly the same way
21:23:21 <ais523> anyway, above this layer of abstraction, you can also group sets of changes into a single change that represents them all
21:23:26 <alise> Gregor: And ... multiple file support, dude.
21:23:38 <ais523> that's the svn/darcs layer of abstraction if you group once (and also does multiple files)
21:23:39 <Gregor> alise: Mmmmm, kinda.
21:23:46 <ais523> and the tag, etc, layer of abstraction if you do it twice
21:23:53 <alise> Gregor: Well, RCS works entirely on one file with no special directory for versioning.
21:23:56 <alise> So more than kinda :P
21:24:03 <ais523> thus, individual object history, repo versions, and tags are all the same concept, really
21:24:09 <ais523> helping to keep the command count down
21:24:56 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, but it didn't actually change anything intrinsic to do that, it just has per-file data, separated properly, and maintained in "modules" which are basically directories. At the actual version-control level, it's still one-file.
21:25:31 <Gregor> SVN has actual multi-file version control, and even that is just "give all the files the same number so people don't go batshit crazy trying to find a revision"
21:31:14 <olsner> alise: I don't think ais' thing is anything like RCS or CVS
21:32:11 <alise> maybe not
21:32:13 <alise> flerh
21:33:06 <olsner> in particular, both RCS and CVS work on trees of files that contain history
21:33:42 <olsner> or each file contains a tree of versions of that file
21:36:04 <alise> Thanks entirely to quintopi, I have shortened Vagrant further!
21:36:07 <alise> X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)
21:36:08 <alise> has become
21:36:12 <alise> X-=(X-x)//17;Y-=(Y-y)//5
21:36:32 <olsner> and CVS is mostly just networked centralized storage for all those RCS files instead of storing them locally
21:39:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:39:36 <olsner> ... looks like Gregor already said that though
21:40:33 <alise> ha
21:40:36 <alise> / instead of // works
21:40:51 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
21:40:51 <alise> 1622 vagrant.py
21:42:48 <GreaseMonkey> apparently it's a tad slower, though
21:43:38 <alise> GreaseMonkey: what is?
21:44:00 <GreaseMonkey> using / instead of // for integer division
21:44:22 <alise> actually in this case it ends up as floats, it just so happens that the way i use them makes this irrelevant
21:44:28 <alise> and jesus, it's python! slow already
21:44:31 <GreaseMonkey> and i have just confirmed that
21:44:35 <alise> / vs // won't help that
21:44:44 <alise> microoptimising python is an amazingly silly idea
21:44:52 <Sgeo> Isn't Python faster than Ruby or something?
21:45:04 <alise> not after YARV
21:45:09 <GreaseMonkey> alise: it's fast enough to play a .mod file on a 1.44GHz 32-bit single-core AMD machine at 32000Hz in stereo
21:45:11 <Sgeo> Also, this is #esoteric. Everything that happens here is silly
21:45:12 <alise> hmm wait I guess it isn't returning a float
21:45:23 <alise> GreaseMonkey: what a useless dump of statistics
21:45:39 <Sgeo> We should microoptimize the sample of BancSTAR code that we have
21:45:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:45:51 <GreaseMonkey> source: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/pymod.py.txt
21:45:52 <ais523> how, if you don't know what it does?
21:46:07 <alise> GreaseMonkey: 32000 Hz = .000032 GHz, your computer could sleep for a bloody year and it'd still play that
21:46:12 <Sgeo> There are people in the world who DO know what it does
21:46:14 <ais523> its author claimed it wasn't leaking commercially sensitive information because nobody knew what it did or what the commands were
21:46:16 <olsner> bancstar code starts out slow, but damn does it microoptimize well
21:46:45 <Sgeo> There's no place where we can find out more about it?
21:47:03 <GreaseMonkey> alise: it has to mix 4 channels at different frequencies, it's not a .wav file silly
21:47:15 <Sgeo> We should purchase a license from... whoever it is
21:47:29 <Sgeo> Or pirate
21:47:41 <Sgeo> Although the latter might be tricky
21:47:45 <GreaseMonkey> and it's using about 54% CPU playing cd_orbit.mod
21:48:16 <GreaseMonkey> 0BE10000|1C505000|00000000|07F07000|
21:48:16 <GreaseMonkey> 0BE10000|1AC06000|00000000|00000000|
21:48:21 <GreaseMonkey> just two lines of output
21:48:31 <alise> brb
21:48:33 <GreaseMonkey> pppssfxy
21:48:41 <GreaseMonkey> period, sample, effect info
21:49:10 <GreaseMonkey> freq = base_clock (about 10^9/280) / period
21:51:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:55:08 <olsner> hmm, bancstar is obviously a list of opcode,arg1,arg2,arg3
21:55:44 <olsner> Control structures available include the 3000 ("conditional"), 3001 ("block conditional"), and 3101 ("reverse block conditional"), as well as 8500 ("GOTO") and 8550 ("combination GOTO").
21:55:57 <olsner> (the opcode goes first btw)
21:56:06 <olsner> which I already said ... d'uh
21:56:58 <olsner> a bunch of "block conditional" in that one sample
21:58:18 <olsner> http://www.oocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/bancstar.html
21:59:02 <Sgeo> Does Broadway & Seymour still exist?
21:59:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:03:34 -!- augur has joined.
22:03:35 <olsner> I think that given documentation, this bancstar thing wouldn't even be very esoteric... it's just a poor source language
22:04:21 <olsner> in fact, why the heck didn't these people just write their own source language and compile it to bancstar?
22:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> They did.
22:05:12 <Sgeo> hmm?
22:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, BANCStar is just bytecode.
22:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But the source language was crappy, so the developers just coded everything in BANCStar.
22:05:59 <olsner> ok, I should rephrase that... since the real source language was so crappy, why didn't they replace the source language instead of coding in the bytecode?
22:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Because they couldn't be bothered?
22:07:02 <olsner> but they obviously *could* be bothered writing this awful bytecode crap :)
22:07:26 <Sgeo> http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2001/07/16/daily41.html
22:07:35 * Sgeo attempts to follow the trail
22:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YPYYvZOGlU Does anyone else think this is cool?
22:09:24 <Sgeo> http://www.linkedin.com/companies/webtone-technologies
22:09:31 <olsner> there's also this: http://www.allbusiness.com/banking-finance/banking-lending-credit-services/7277371-1.html
22:10:43 <Sgeo> Searching for WinPrism gets some book management thing
22:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yesyesyes, what of that video I linked to?
22:11:37 <Sgeo> Fidelity Information Services still exists!
22:13:28 <Sgeo> Searching the site for WinPrism reveals nothing
22:13:44 <olsner> wealth management solutions!
22:15:12 <cpressey> < Gregor> In other words, we need a space-flight simulator where people write captain programs.
22:15:23 <cpressey> So, C-Robots, in 3D, and not just C.
22:15:38 <Gregor> If that's what C-Robots is, then YES! :P
22:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Can we write self-replicators in it?
22:15:55 <cpressey> < pikhq> I had forgotten how mad this code was.  <-- to what do you refer?
22:17:08 <cpressey> < alise_> "Like Feather!"  <-- FeatherSCM!  woo!
22:17:10 <pikhq> cpressey: SKI interpreter using lambda in C.
22:17:22 <cpressey> it'd be the only one i'd use.  if it existed
22:18:32 <cpressey> < alise> microoptimising python is an amazingly silly idea  <-- happens all the time here :/
22:20:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:20:11 <cpressey> pikhq: i think i remember you writing that.  or i;m confused.
22:20:21 <pikhq> cpressey: I did.
22:20:26 <pikhq> cpressey: And it's fucking nuts.
22:20:36 <alise> back
22:20:59 <cpressey> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crobots
22:21:27 <olsner> Sgeo: one can only hope that FIS have gotten rid of this crap... then again they are still marketing a MUMPS-based thingy
22:21:41 <cpressey> ais523: if i were to design a SCM it would only work on S-Expressions
22:21:51 <Sgeo> They wouldn't have it in some storage facility somewhere?
22:22:18 <alise> lol, Sgeo is suddenly worried about bancstar being lost to the world
22:22:24 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
22:22:32 <ais523> wasn't it already?
22:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> cpressey: SKI interpreter using lambda in C. ← Sophisticated enough to run Lazy K?
22:22:50 <cpressey> < olsner> but they obviously *could* be bothered writing this awful bytecode crap :)  <-- THAT'S HOW IT WORKS IN DE BIZNESS WURLD
22:23:16 <olsner> so they say
22:23:29 <cpressey> the source language was probably *terrible* and they didn't have the resources/justification to make a better one
22:23:41 <cpressey> ****terrible***
22:23:47 <Sgeo> alise, hey, nostalgia isn't a factor here
22:23:52 <cpressey> (the first * is the correction *)
22:24:29 <alise> Sgeo: but you're still worried about it
22:24:45 <cpressey> terrible, like, programming language implemented by someone with no familiarity with parsing or interpretation, theory or practice
22:24:48 <alise> cpressey: i think that it was some gui tool, i may be mistaken
22:24:52 <cpressey> s/interpreteation/code gen/
22:25:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It currently implements a subset of Lazy K.
22:25:02 <cpressey> alise: very possible
22:25:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Namely, the SKI subset.
22:25:16 <ais523> it was the bytecode used by a GUI code-gen tool
22:25:17 <Sgeo> I want to program in BancSTAR!
22:25:24 <ais523> but people used it directly because the code-gen tool wasn't very good
22:25:29 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, and the laziness?
22:25:41 <pikhq> Is proper.
22:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> So it should be possible to add I/O?
22:27:03 <pikhq> It *has* I/O.
22:27:17 <pikhq> ... Wait, why the heck is this segfaulting?
22:27:38 <cpressey> well, if it was built by "gui programmers" that pretty much guarantees it was AWESOME.
22:27:44 <olsner> Sgeo: they have things called BancLine and BancPac, note the spelling of 'banc'
22:28:09 <Sgeo> Hmm
22:28:11 <alise> "Not a game, but rather a lawsuit" --TV Tropes
22:28:15 <cpressey> they've probably switched to Plain English now
22:28:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:28:33 <Sgeo> Would it be possible to ask if there's any relation to BancStar, particularly the bytecodes?
22:28:37 <alise> olsner: probably just a brand name
22:28:45 <alise> Sgeo: they probably don't know it ever existed. or deny it
22:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, FFS if you want it so hard, just write something that looks identical.
22:29:57 <olsner> and this TellerPlus that looks related to those BancLine/BancPac things is apparently *customizable* (in bancstar? :D)
22:30:05 <Sgeo> But it wouldn't be genuine BancSTAR
22:30:15 <Sgeo> Just something that fits what little we know of it
22:30:36 <cpressey> Use one of those fractal interpolators to infer the rest of BancSTAR
22:31:58 <ais523> alise: which game? I can't visit TV Tropes because I'm at work
22:32:02 <ais523> and thus, can't search it
22:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, just analyse.
22:32:21 <alise> ais523: Capcom vs. X series
22:32:26 <alise> some street fighter ripoff
22:32:29 <alise> the quote is the only amusing part
22:32:35 <ais523> ah, OK
22:33:11 <Sgeo> Numbers below 3000, or maybe 2000, might be variables
22:33:27 <Sgeo> Wait, there are NEGATIVES?
22:33:42 <cpressey> credit AND debit, baby!
22:33:48 <olsner> Sgeo: the text mentions a limit of 2000 variables
22:33:57 <Sgeo> olsner, right
22:34:01 <ais523> also, that the language doesn't have constants
22:34:09 <ais523> so you need a spare variable to store constants in
22:34:17 <Sgeo> Are any numbers between 2000 and 3000?
22:34:30 <Sgeo> If not, maybe those would be meaningless
22:34:32 <olsner> maybe constants are just in the code, but surrounded by if's
22:34:35 <olsner> or gotos
22:34:51 <Sgeo> How do you store constants if you can't write constants?
22:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Did noöne watch that video?
22:35:11 <alise> "I really wish they made a sequel to The Matrix. It would have been awesome!" --reddit
22:35:12 <ais523> presumably variables can be initialized statically, or something
22:35:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's on my todo list!
22:35:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are you sure you can use a diaeresis in  that context?
22:35:37 <alise> ais523: it is correct
22:35:42 <alise> it isn't noooooooooone
22:35:44 <alise> as in "noon"
22:35:45 <alise> it's no-one
22:35:47 <alise> no One
22:35:50 <alise> start of a new syllable
22:35:52 <alise> diaeresis
22:35:54 <ais523> alise: according to normal pronunciation rules, yes
22:36:01 <ais523> that doesn't mean the word's actually spelled like that, though
22:36:07 <alise>  Phantom_Hoover that video doesn't load for me
22:36:10 <alise> ais523: err, it's orthography
22:36:14 <alise> ais523: diareses are valid everywhere
22:36:14 <ais523> words tend not to be spelled phonetically in English
22:36:18 <alise> *no " " at the start
22:36:20 <ais523> alise: and in reverse, too?
22:36:25 <ais523> I wouldn't call Zo-e a common name
22:36:27 <olsner> oh, based on this presentation I found, I get the impression that BancLine really could be the continuation of bancstar
22:36:28 <alise> ais523: it's an accent mark
22:36:42 <olsner> it looks like the kind of forms that would be built by something like that
22:36:42 <ais523> alise: and thus part of the spelling of a word
22:36:44 <alise> "noöne" is definitely correct.
22:36:57 <alise> if irritating
22:37:00 <ais523> I mean, I accept, say, "preëmptive" because that's actually how you spell the word
22:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, try clicking into the time bar somewhere.
22:37:05 <ais523> or used to, at least
22:37:16 <alise> hey, the diaeresis mark has a name
22:37:17 <alise> trema
22:37:57 <ais523> but a "you can always replace a hyphen between syllables with adjacent vowels with a diaeresis" rule doesn't seem to be correct
22:38:09 <alise> ais523: doesn't even have to be between syllables
22:38:18 <alise> although doing it everywhere it can go is annoying, it's not incorrect
22:38:22 <ais523> well, you have to pronounce the two vowels separately
22:38:28 <ais523> that's what a diaeresis means
22:38:37 <ais523> and I find it hard to see how you could do that within a single syllable
22:38:43 <alise> er, i mean
22:38:45 <alise> you don't need a hyphen
22:38:46 <cpressey> I think if you were a Greek scholar you'd spell it... n/m
22:38:51 <cpressey> PowerShell won't let me
22:39:11 <alise> "The designated driver concept was developed in Scandinavia over several decades beginning in the 1920s"
22:39:17 <alise> Scandinavia, always inventing newer, more modern ways to be drunk.
22:39:26 <alise> cpressey: just use TeX codes for it!
22:39:29 <alise> \"e for ë
22:39:35 <alise> romanise greek text :P
22:40:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, to what extent does the video not load?
22:40:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it does now
22:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Opine.
22:41:52 <olsner> Sgeo: you know what you must do, you must aquire bancline and tellerplus and take it apart
22:42:13 <Sgeo> Do we in fact know that those are descended from BancSTAR?
22:42:19 <olsner> not yet
22:42:29 <olsner> and maybe not ever
22:43:07 <olsner> maybe you could just ask FIS if they know what happened to the code?
22:43:09 <Sgeo> At some point, I'm going to write an email to someone at FIS
22:43:25 <Ilari> Bancstar (what is known about it) looks like good base for an esolang...
22:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are you OPINING?
22:45:43 <olsner> it's only esoteric because so little is known about it
22:46:35 <ais523> doesn't that also apply to Schrödilang?
22:47:06 <Sgeo> a.k.a. Feather?
22:47:06 <olsner> ais523: what's that?
22:47:08 <alise> cpressey: PC-BSD; pontificate
22:47:22 <ais523> olsner: a joke language, I think it's on the wiki
22:47:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you call that opining?
22:47:38 <ais523> the joke is that there's only one known description on a floppy disk, with a powerful magnet to erase it at random
22:47:49 <ais523> so nobody knows if there are any surviving descriptions or not
22:49:07 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
22:51:34 <cpressey> hash-occurs-check
22:51:43 <alise> cpressey: what
22:51:50 <Sgeo> Should I email World Headquarters?
22:51:53 <cpressey> wait, PC-BSD?
22:52:09 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:52:09 <cpressey> i have no feelings toward it
22:52:16 <Sgeo> moreinformation@fisglobal.com
22:52:28 <alise> cpressey: didn't think so :)
22:52:33 <cpressey> alise: i was wondering if you could efficiently do occurs checks by hashing the terms somehow
22:52:34 <alise> Detroit; pontificate
22:52:50 <cpressey> Detroit is not nearly as cool as Windsor
22:53:03 <alise> Windsor; monoglicks?
22:53:16 <cpressey> Windsor: a Canadian city where you look north to see a major US city
22:53:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:54:01 <alise> no, Windsor: it's a place in Berkshire
22:54:15 <alise> cpressey: please -- stop me creating my own distro
22:54:17 <pikhq> cpressey: Which Windsor? There's 3 in Canada.
22:54:18 <alise> before all hell breaks loose
22:54:28 <pikhq> alise: 4 in the UK.
22:54:31 <cpressey> pikhq: the cool one where the SALT is packages
22:54:34 <cpressey> *packaged
22:54:39 <cpressey> alise: STOP
22:54:41 <alise> pikhq: the one with the castle in it
22:54:42 <cpressey> STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP
22:54:43 <alise> cpressey: why
22:54:52 <pikhq> And 23 in the US
22:54:55 <cpressey> alise: ... there are cooler things to do with your time
22:55:08 <alise> yeah but they're harder
22:55:13 <pikhq> Sorry, 24.
22:55:16 <alise> also:
22:55:19 <cpressey> alise: that's why there are so many damned distros
22:55:20 <alise> they don't solve my day-to-day irritation
22:55:30 <pikhq> cpressey: So, Windsor, Ontario.
22:55:33 <alise> cpressey: trust me, mine is nothing like others :P (I've had it planned a while)
22:55:40 <alise> no, really, nothing.
22:55:47 <cpressey> pikhq: yes,
22:55:49 <cpressey> *.
22:56:08 <alise> ais523: I thought of what a FeatherSCM would look like
22:56:22 <ais523> oh dear
22:56:25 <cpressey> in windsor, ON, if you look north, across the detroit river, you see detroit.
22:56:47 <pikhq> Y'know, Detroit-Windsor is itself a very good argument for opening up the US-Canada border.
22:56:51 <cpressey> YakLinux ships with FeatherSCM.  Film at 11
22:56:56 <alise> ais523: every change *retroactively* changes all the previous ones, because changes are in reverse: that is, each revision is an entire diff that turns the revision after it into the empty string. so you modify the previous diff so it turns the latest revision into the empty string, then the one before it to compensate, so on, forever
22:57:13 <ais523> that's not all that Feather-like, really, just ridiculous
22:57:18 <pikhq> (Detroit & Windsor are effectively a single city, seperated by a damned border crossing on the bridge between the two halves)
22:57:19 <alise> ais523: the key is that you collapse these
22:57:21 <alise> so instead of turning into ""
22:57:24 <alise> they turn into the revision before it
22:57:41 <alise> ais523: so to revert you just run a diff
22:57:44 <alise> well, diffs
22:57:48 <alise> ais523: it is feather, it's retroactive :P
22:58:02 <alise> pikhq: but dude
22:58:04 <alise> Detroit sucks
22:58:06 <alise> is Windsor any good?
22:58:41 <pikhq> alise: Unlike Detroit, it has more to its economy than car manufacturing.
22:58:47 <alise> what i'm saying is
22:58:52 <alise> merging Detroit and Windsor would make Canada worse
22:58:58 <alise> for the benefit of *Detroit!*
22:59:01 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:59:43 <pikhq> alise: The border there is a bit like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Baarle-Nassau_fronti%C3%A8re_caf%C3%A9.jpg
22:59:49 <cpressey> This is how the rest of Canada knows Windsor: http://www.canadiandesignresource.ca/officialgallery/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/windsor_salt_canadian_design.jpg
23:00:01 <pikhq> ... Except with a damned customs checkpoint.
23:00:26 <cpressey> alise: Windsor kind of sucks too, but not anywhere near as bad as Detroit.  It has some cool at the centre of its suckage.
23:00:44 <pikhq> cpressey: Like I said, Windsor has more to its economy than car manufacturing.
23:01:10 <alise>  if k=='q':
23:01:10 <alise>   q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300)
23:01:10 <alise>   if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T()
23:01:10 <alise>   continue
23:01:14 <alise> still offering prizes for golfing this
23:01:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:01:33 <alise> pikhq: the river is a bit wider than that i think :)
23:01:42 <cpressey> alise: Also, one of my esolangs was designed and written up there.
23:02:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but still.
23:02:16 <alise> i think canada is my kind of country
23:02:20 <pikhq> alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AmbassadorBridgesunsetting1.jpg That's the actual bridge.
23:02:36 <alise> pikhq: 's a pretty big bridge :P
23:02:45 <alise> is that ice in the water?
23:02:56 <alise> i can't see clearly
23:03:06 <pikhq> Yes; Detroit is fucking cold in February.
23:03:16 <pikhq> Erm, March.
23:04:08 <pikhq> alise: There's also a tunnel between the two, and a couple more bridges being built.
23:04:38 <alise> cpressey: have you ever been to winnipeg?
23:04:57 <pikhq> Because for some reason some 25% of trade between Canada & the US goes through Detroit-Windsor.
23:04:58 <cpressey> alise: Yes.  In fact, I was born there.
23:05:16 <alise> cpressey: Is it, in fact, a, and I quote, "frozen shithole"?
23:05:21 <cpressey> and lived there for the first, er, >2/3 of my life.
23:05:53 <cpressey> alise: i don't know that i've ever heard that *exact* term, but it's not wholly inaccurate
23:06:12 <nooga> C:
23:06:14 <alise> cpressey: Is it, in fact, a "dogshit dildo"? Is it "fucking over"? Is it Steven Stapleton's armpit? Is it a boiling pot of cranberries?
23:06:25 <nooga> dogshit dillo?
23:06:33 <cpressey> alise: i will stick to the first term you proposed
23:06:48 <alise> PSHT NOBODY CAN APPRECIATE MY REFERENCES
23:07:05 <alise> cpressey: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Is_a_Frozen_Shithole)
23:07:09 <cpressey> yeah well no one's going to ever figure out mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot either.
23:07:42 <cpressey> possibly best if i wait til i'm home to follow that link
23:08:11 <alise> what a radical idea
23:08:58 <nooga> :>
23:09:10 <nooga> radish
23:09:16 <nooga> no no no
23:09:17 <nooga> put me
23:09:22 <nooga> it's fucking RAD
23:09:44 <alise> It's rad... ish.
23:10:30 <ais523> mzstorkipiwanbot: you still disagree with everything anyone says to you, right?
23:10:31 <mzstorkipiwanbot> ais523: I disagree!
23:11:03 <ais523> fungot: do you disagree with mzstorkipiwanbot?
23:11:04 <fungot> ais523: i think now you're working on an os ( even ' kind of' proposed mean? ;p it might make sense
23:11:26 <ais523> oh well, I should go home
23:11:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:12:51 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Peacearch-usside.jpg The irony is you need to go through customs if you intend to go more than 50 feet past that "gate that will never close".
23:12:59 <alise> lawl
23:13:12 <alise> pikhq: is that the border?
23:13:15 <alise> dumb question
23:13:16 <alise> of course it is
23:13:17 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
23:13:17 <nooga> mother of common children mait
23:13:22 <alise> "Children of a common mother" is just wat
23:13:35 <alise> America, I think you need to read up on Canadian history
23:14:04 <cpressey> hey, another border crossing i've been through multiple times
23:14:16 <pikhq> As a special exception, you are permitted to go past the border crossing *there* without clearing customs.
23:15:07 <pikhq> However, you can't go past the nearby customs gates.
23:15:11 <alise> what format is /dev/dsp again?
23:15:17 <Sgeo> I _will_ play Aquaria
23:15:26 <pikhq> 8-bit unsigned PCM
23:15:40 <alise> alright
23:17:10 <olsner> Sgeo: you _will_ find bancstar
23:17:18 <pikhq> At, uh. 8 kHz mono.
23:17:52 <pikhq> /dev/audio is 8-bit mu-Law at 8 kHz, BTW.
23:18:16 <alise> pikhq: behold:
23:18:25 <alise> perl -e'print pack "c*",map {$_/=100;10*sin ($_*$_)} (0..25000)' >/dev/dsp
23:18:27 <Sgeo> olsner, yes, I will. Later
23:18:28 <alise> It sounds nice!
23:18:32 <alise> A swooping sci-fish effect.
23:18:35 <alise> yes, sci fish.
23:18:47 <pikhq> alise: Well, that's fun.
23:18:53 <pikhq> If a bit shockingly loud.
23:18:57 <alise> pikhq: Sorry.
23:19:03 <alise> You can scale it.
23:19:43 <pikhq> 1.5 is *not* shockingly loud.
23:20:38 <alise> pikhq: Now make a song out of it.
23:23:22 <alise> #!/usr/bin/env perl
23:23:22 <alise> sub p { print pack 'c*', @_ }
23:23:22 <alise> close STDOUT; open STDOUT, '>', '/dev/dsp';
23:23:25 <alise> There's a header for you.
23:24:23 <Sgeo> ARGH
23:24:33 <Sgeo> Aquaria download is 209MB
23:24:36 <Sgeo> I have 199MB free
23:24:40 <Sgeo> After deleting SL
23:25:45 <Sgeo> Hmm
23:25:52 <Sgeo> Now I seem to have plenty of space
23:25:57 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: ~@f={/a>100?~/a=~/a-1&"PRIVMSG mzstorkipiwanbot :@f} -- or similar
23:25:57 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: I disagree!
23:26:49 <alise> cpressey: wat :P
23:26:58 <cpressey> alise: it'll look something like that
23:27:26 <cpressey> maybe #SELF can expand to the name of the bot or something
23:31:18 <pikhq> Taiwan's relationship with the US is so very fucked up.
23:31:29 <pikhq> “The act provides for Taiwan to be treated under U.S. laws the same as "foreign countries, nations, states, governments, or similar entities".”
23:31:43 <pikhq> Really. We say that they are an independent nation in all but name.
23:32:18 <alise> pikhq: please debug my perl >__>
23:32:35 <alise> zeroes should be silence to /dev/dsp, right?
23:32:50 <pikhq> alise: Not with unsigned PCM.
23:32:54 <alise> gah
23:32:55 <alise> what is it then
23:32:57 <alise> >_>
23:33:13 <pikhq> alise: 0x0F
23:33:17 <alise> interestingly, my sin program works just as well piped to /dev/audio
23:33:26 <alise> is mu-Law really that similar to PCM?
23:33:37 <alise> pikhq: ...why 15
23:33:46 <pikhq> Erm.
23:33:47 <pikhq> Not that.
23:33:59 <alise> a lot of my bytes seem to be getting dropped
23:34:04 <alise> sub z { my $x = shift; p (15 x $x) }
23:34:04 <alise> sub tck { p int(rand(256)) foreach 0..500 }
23:34:04 <alise> tck;
23:34:04 <alise> z(5000);
23:34:04 <alise> tck;
23:34:08 <alise> this is the same as tck;tck
23:34:10 <alise> for some reason
23:34:25 <alise> i guess it isn't silence
23:34:38 <pikhq> alise: /dev/dsp is like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Pcm.svg but with more bits.
23:34:57 <alise> So... the midpoint.
23:34:59 <alise> So 128?
23:35:01 <pikhq> Yes.
23:35:09 <alise> Now tell me why it doesn't work.
23:35:19 <alise> oh
23:35:20 <alise> it does now
23:35:21 <alise> if i use print
23:35:22 <alise> not p
23:35:27 <alise> so the packing is destroying it somehow ffff
23:35:46 <pikhq> And mu-Law is very close to PCM. It's PCM with a logarithmic scale instead of linear.
23:36:12 <Sgeo> Sing
23:36:14 <Sgeo> Sing a song
23:36:17 <cpressey> !haskell :t (>_>)
23:36:20 <alise> Sgeo: SHUT
23:36:51 <Sgeo> You don't want to hear me song?
23:36:54 <Sgeo> *sing?
23:37:13 <cpressey> song it
23:37:54 <Sgeo> Torture device: Me singing the Stargate Infinity theme
23:38:13 <cpressey> OMG STOP STOP STOP STOP
23:39:07 <cpressey> also make me watch ST:V at the same time
23:39:31 <Sgeo> ST:V isn't bad
23:39:33 <cpressey> AND DEBUG CORPORATE C++
23:39:48 <cpressey> Sgeo, it is to me.
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23:41:08 <alise> pikhq: pretty hard to get a sharp sound here
23:41:15 <alise> like a cymbal
23:41:32 <pikhq> alise: Well, yes. It's 8kHz.
23:42:01 <alise> pikhq: yeah but there's gotta be some sort of cymbally noise
23:42:08 <alise> not everything has to be sludge!
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23:42:30 <pikhq> Could you do it on a phone?
23:44:30 <alise> pikhq: Yes.
23:44:42 <alise> Say "TSSSS" into the phone with a ... hiss, not a proper s.
23:48:41 <Sgeo> How bad an idea would it be to put an installer on a remote machine (my school's machine) and run it locally?
23:49:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: not a bad idea at all!
23:49:16 <cpressey> Sgeo: i'm sure your school wouldn't mind!
23:49:33 <alise> pikhq: http://pastie.org/1206539.txt?key=rtv18vjbsp2ihxz2blygq My attempt at laying down the phat beats.
23:49:45 <Sgeo> cpressey, sarcasm?
23:52:39 <cpressey> Sgeo: what's on the schoolmachine?
23:53:12 <Sgeo> Storage space
23:53:25 <cpressey> What OS?
23:54:09 <Sgeo> Some variety of Linux
23:54:52 * Sgeo creates an sdf account
23:55:20 <alise> pikhq: BTW, you know how you were talking about university financial aid sucking in the US?
23:55:31 <alise> Sgeo: the sdf admin is a huge jackass
23:55:34 <alise> as of years ago
23:55:47 <Sgeo> o.O howso?
23:56:51 <alise> Sgeo: when someone said something about the prices for registration or something he ranted about them, uhh, i don't remember, something idiotic and insulting about McDonalds
23:57:05 <alise> worse than Theo de Raat level insults :)
23:58:32 <pikhq> alise: Yeah?
23:58:59 <pikhq> alise: BTW, that's just one of *many* things about US education that sucks.
23:59:01 <alise> pikhq: I looked it up out of curiosity and that situation definitely seems to be non-universal. At least, MIT was the first one I found giving clear info about it--
23:59:25 <pikhq> alise: MIT and the Ivy Leagues are some of the *few* schools that offer decent financial aid.
23:59:27 <alise> Statistics: 58% of undergrads awarded scholarship, average $26,800
23:59:38 <pikhq> That is coming *from MIT*.
23:59:57 <cpressey> Sgeo: I guess as long as you don't have the root password you can't fuck anything up TOO badly.  for some reason i was assuming it was windows

2010-10-08:

00:00:03 <alise> And, uh, their policy that I now can't find was "we literally don't look at money at all when admitting, and then we promise you can attend if we accept you"
00:00:06 <alise> pikhq: Ah.
00:00:11 <alise> So a bad example to look at, then!
00:00:15 <alise> The others must be too ashamed to talk about it.
00:00:17 <Sgeo> cpressey, I wouldn't be installing it on the school's server
00:00:24 <Sgeo> I'd be using the server as storage space
00:00:30 <Sgeo> And using FUSE (I think) to install here
00:00:33 <pikhq> alise: Harvard hands out free rides to people who can't afford to go to there.
00:00:41 <pikhq> (that is, everything paid for)
00:00:43 <cpressey> Sgeo: oh like um wow ok
00:00:49 <alise> pikhq: It's quite strange, that.
00:00:55 <alise> pikhq: Doesn't really gel with the elitism, does it?
00:00:56 <Sgeo> It's a 200mb file though
00:01:27 <pikhq> alise: Anyone who's accepted there is already sufficiently elite for them.
00:01:32 <alise> pikhq: Heh.
00:01:51 <alise> pikhq: Then Ivy League/MIT have a better system than the UK.
00:02:01 <alise> pikhq: Get into Oxford? ENJOY YOUR STUDENT LOAN'S CRIPPLING DEBT
00:02:08 <alise> YOU WILL BE STUCK WITH IT FOREVER
00:02:16 <alise> Fellate the wonderful student loan company! They love you!
00:02:29 <pikhq> alise: Even if you're coming from absolutely nothing, it's still someone who's pretty damned smart & hardworking, and as such likely to be future elite.
00:02:48 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, and Oxford's cheap by US standards. ;)
00:03:50 <alise> pikhq: It's probably cheaper to go to a European university.
00:04:03 <alise> But not quite as classy as being able to whip out your I-went-to-Oxford/Harvard card.
00:04:14 <pikhq> You want infuriating, though?
00:04:20 <pikhq> US public school lunches.
00:04:37 <alise> I don't want to know. I don't even want to know. Go on.
00:04:39 <pikhq> Fries & ketchup count as two servings of vegetables.
00:04:46 <alise> haha
00:04:48 <alise> that's brilliant
00:04:52 <pikhq> And as such, every lunch comes with them.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> "you sent it to All Course Faculty, instead of me, so it placed your message in a different inbox."
00:05:22 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU ANGEL
00:05:30 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU IN THE REAR END
00:05:35 <alise> Rear end? SRSLY
00:05:52 <pikhq> Deep fried, breaded cheese can count as a main course. (mozzarella cheese sticks)
00:06:08 <alise> pikhq: xD
00:06:19 <pikhq> Or (and this is very common) the world's greasiest, blandest pizza.
00:06:35 <pikhq> Daily.
00:07:16 <Sgeo> FUSE is what I think it is, right?
00:07:42 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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00:08:57 <pikhq> alise: Oh, and fries covered with imitation American cheese food sauce!
00:09:11 <alise> HOORJ
00:09:11 <pikhq> ... With imitation bacon-flavored bits!
00:09:16 <alise> what
00:10:21 <pikhq> In fact, most of it comes with imitation cheese or very cheap cheese, because it comes effectively free.
00:10:27 <Sgeo> Do all distros use FUSE these days?
00:10:42 <pikhq> (as a farm support program, the government buys all excess cheese. Really.)
00:11:06 <alise> Sgeo: yes, for ntfs-3g.
00:11:08 <alise> more or less.
00:11:17 <alise> pikhq: why is america
00:11:32 <Sgeo> And why does it mount by default under .gvfs?
00:11:41 <Sgeo> Is that an Ubuntu thing, a GNOME thing, or a FUSE thing?
00:11:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: GNOME thing.
00:12:14 <Sgeo> What does KDE do?
00:12:34 <alise> Sgeo: kde doesn't
00:12:36 <alise> it has kIO
00:12:37 <alise> and stuff
00:12:39 <alise> kio
00:12:40 <alise> whatever
00:12:43 <alise> Sgeo: it's also fuse
00:12:47 <alise> it's gnome's vfs fuse filesystem
00:13:06 * Sgeo prefers GNOME's way
00:13:13 <Sgeo> Oh
00:13:14 <Sgeo> Wait
00:13:18 <Sgeo> ...wait
00:13:23 <Sgeo> KDE doesn't use FUSE?
00:14:01 <alise> Nope.
00:14:08 <alise> Also, are you sure you understand either way?
00:14:10 <alise> KDE's is superior.
00:14:16 <alise> pikhq: Can you explain fraternities to me?
00:14:18 <alise> I don't get it.
00:14:37 <pikhq> alise: No.
00:14:50 <alise> pikhq: But... but you see, I don't get it.
00:14:59 <Sgeo> I can't use what KDE does from the commandline, can I?
00:15:23 <alise> Sgeo: Go on, try and use .gvfs from the command-line.
00:15:30 <alise> Also, pretty sure there is some sort of command-line infrastructure for it.
00:15:40 <alise> pikhq: No seriously fraternities, explain them.
00:15:42 <Sgeo> alise, I'm about to
00:15:50 <Sgeo> As soon as this thing finishes uploading
00:16:40 <pikhq> alise: Uh, drunk bastards live in communal housing.
00:16:46 <pikhq> alise: That's... About it.
00:17:16 <alise> pikhq: So, what, is there no communal housing without the drunk part?
00:17:18 <alise> :P
00:17:55 <pikhq> alise: Oh, they also get really worked up about it, due to practices such as "selective membership" and "keeping secrets".
00:19:53 <alise> pikhq: NOW EXPLAIN FREEMASONRY
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00:21:20 * Sgeo attempts to run a program located in .gvfs
00:21:44 <Sgeo> Seems to be working just fine
00:21:50 <Sgeo> A bit slow, really
00:23:30 <nooga> i think i should design really small objective lang that would allow to write concurrent programs easily
00:23:41 <nooga> some kind of event driven shit
00:24:07 <nooga> i'm thinking about my academic project for this semester
00:24:10 <alise> pikhq: FREEMASONRY
00:24:11 <alise> EXPLAIN IT
00:24:31 <Sgeo> Um, does sftp allow access to random parts of a file? If not, how does FUSE simulate it
00:25:26 <alise> Sgeo: by reading all of it.
00:25:39 <Sgeo> Repeatedly?
00:26:17 <Sgeo> Um, how much random reading would a typical Linux installer require?
00:26:22 <nooga> alise: alpha lambda iota sigma epsilon
00:26:38 <alise> Sgeo: whatever you're doing, just don't.
00:27:08 <Sgeo> Having some trouble killing it
00:28:05 <Sgeo> I appear to be unable to access my own filesystem
00:28:43 <alise> pikhq: Now explain why you have weird names for every year of high school.
00:30:04 <alise> pikhq: EXPLAIN, AMERICA! Explain yourself!
00:30:10 <alise> America is on trial and YOU are its representative!
00:33:40 <pikhq> alise: Freshman sophomore junior senior? No clue.
00:34:14 <alise> pikhq: And then you... reuse freshman at college level.
00:34:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:34:19 <alise> Because TERMINOLOGY SHOULDN'T BE USEFUL
00:34:38 <pikhq> Freshman sophomore junior senior through college, as well.
00:35:03 <pikhq> Though freshman is cognate to UK "fresher"...
00:35:15 <pikhq> Still, I got nothing.
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00:35:48 <alise> pikhq: Now freemasonry.
00:36:31 <pikhq> alise: You first.
00:36:34 <alise> No? Alright then. Goodnight.
00:36:35 <alise> Bye. :P
00:36:38 <pikhq> It's a UK organisation.
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00:36:42 <pikhq> That got exported.
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01:13:27 <pikhq> Hmm. A data: URI quine.
01:17:59 <Ilari> Can you use gzip or something in data: URI?
01:20:09 <pikhq> data:application/x-gzip;base64, says yes
01:22:40 <cpressey_> nu omega omega gamma alpha
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01:45:20 <Ilari> pikhq: Then it should be possible to make... There's already gzip quine.
01:45:41 <Sgeo> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
01:45:45 <Sgeo> I've lost weight
01:45:49 <Sgeo> 109.5lbs
01:45:54 <Sgeo> From 111
01:46:08 <Sgeo> Unless the scale is off, or that's a normal range of variation
01:46:56 <Ilari> Sgeo: You don't happen to drink full-fat milk?
01:47:08 <Sgeo> ..no, why?
01:47:31 <Ilari> Ah... Because full fat milk isn't that great for weight gain...
01:47:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that's not an *atypical* range of variation.
01:48:02 <pikhq> Why don't you just eat a typical American diet? Y'know, deep-fried lard.
01:48:23 <Sgeo> I kind of signed up for this bone marrow donor thing a while ago..
01:48:30 <Sgeo> And the limit is 110
01:49:09 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/do3cw/thats_what_happens_when_your_cs_curriculum_is/c11n5f1
01:49:13 <Ilari> Lard isn't great for weight gain either... Loads of carbohydrates and fats might work...
01:49:28 <pikhq> Ilari: I'm being silly.
01:49:46 <Ilari> Especially soft fats...
02:05:13 <Gregor> Mmmmmmmmm
02:05:13 <Gregor> Soft fats
02:05:14 <Gregor> I spread soft fats on toast for breakfast.
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02:09:38 <Sgeo> Even if I was 111lbs, would it be safe for me to be donating blood?
02:11:38 <Ilari> Of course, weight gain using "all means necressary" might not be healthy...
02:14:41 <Ilari> You know, like some people getting Diabetes type 2 (NASTY NASTY disease) without even being "overweight".
02:15:43 <Sgeo> Is it possible to lose diabetes type 2?
02:16:56 <Ilari> Maybe... Maybe not...
02:17:45 <Ilari> (and that's to "if it is possible at all"). Typically it will not be lost.
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02:24:08 <Ilari> Its not even known what exactly causes diabetes type 2...
02:26:29 <Ilari> Type 2 diabetes is essentially extreme intolerance to carbohydrates and inability to keep blood sugars (even fasting) in check.
02:26:52 <Ilari> Due to very high levels of insulin resistance.
02:33:47 <pikhq> Ilari: So, what, all we know is that there is a *correlation* between excess consumption of carbohydrates & type 2 diabetes?
02:34:25 <Ilari> Its not carbohydrates per se. Nor it is fast carbohydrates per se...
02:35:01 <pikhq> Note that I'm just saying "correlation".
02:35:30 <pikhq> Which, as we all well know, says fuck-all about actual causes.
02:36:31 <cpressey> I had the impression it was something to do with the metabolization of carbohydrates.
02:36:49 <cpressey> and/or sugars.
02:40:51 <cpressey> I guess what I mean is we can say what "causes" it -- insulin is no longer doing what it's supposed to.
02:41:01 <cpressey> What causes *that* is the mystery.
02:41:26 <cpressey> Just one more thing that medicine is completely in the dark about.
02:51:11 -!- lament has joined.
03:00:14 <cpressey> lament: #haskell is very active while #scheme is essentially dead.  do you see any significance in this?
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03:16:08 <Ilari> Actually its known bit further: Pancreas can no longer pump the amount of insulin required to keep blood sugars in check. And when that happens, things start getting downhill really fast.
03:16:51 <Ilari> But what causes the extreme insulin resistance required...
03:21:27 <lament> cpressey: yes.
04:11:02 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge9VfALthLI
04:14:01 <lament> nice
04:14:25 <Gregor> That's an almost-surreal level of stupidity.
04:21:27 <lament> we'll he was probably mentally retarded. it's not really surreal
04:31:56 <pikhq> "It no open push harder".
04:32:50 <Gregor> It seems to me like if you're going to the basement, gravity's on your side anyway, so who needs the car?
04:33:25 <pikhq> Also, that elevator door seems kinda flimsy.
04:34:02 <pikhq> Granted, it's not like they *should* need to take someone ramming the door, but still...
04:44:26 <coppro> try harder!
05:08:19 <cpressey> should i watch this?  perhaps this commentary and my imagination is quite enough
05:17:10 <Gregor> It's only 46 seconds, just watch it :P
05:17:22 <Gregor> And it's so, so mind-boggling.
05:19:38 <cpressey> dude i so do not remember my youtube login sigh
05:26:52 <pikhq> ｱｲ ﾜﾝﾀﾞ ﾜｲ ｴﾆﾜﾝ ｴﾊﾞ ｻｳｯﾄ ｻﾞｯﾄ ﾊｰﾌ ｳｨｯｽ ｶﾀｶﾅ ﾜｽﾞ ｱ ｸﾞｰﾄﾞ ｱｲﾃﾞｨｱ｡ [ai wanntà wai eniwann ehà sau'to sà'to hâhu uī'su katakana wasù a k`ûtò aitèīa.](I wonder why anyone ever thought that half-width katakana was a good idea.)
05:29:09 <Gregor> cpressey: ... you don't need to log in to YouTube to watch videos ...
05:29:49 <pikhq> Gregor: That one you do.
05:29:55 <cpressey> Gregor: it wanted to confirm i was >=18 years old
05:29:59 <cpressey> for this, i had to log in
05:30:06 <Gregor> wtf
05:30:11 <Gregor> That's so weird :P
05:30:12 <cpressey> because google is supergenuises
05:30:23 <Gregor> It's not like it's pornographic, or even violent really ...
05:32:58 <cpressey> Gregor: the youtube community HAS SPOKEN.
05:35:19 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo-yo The infobox on this page makes me laugh.
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05:47:58 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: I'm waiting for anyone to say anything at all in #scheme.
05:47:59 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
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05:50:36 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot, are you a Hobbit?
05:50:37 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
05:50:54 <cpressey>  mmmmkay
05:51:42 <fizzie> Oo, you've made it more positive.
05:52:08 <cpressey> far, far too much so
05:52:34 <cpressey> but it recognizes privmsgs and commas after its name now
05:54:08 <cpressey> hey, someone said something in #scheme
05:55:26 <cpressey> 23:51 < Riastradh> Boo!
05:59:30 <cpressey> what's a good language to rewrite it in?
05:59:39 <cpressey> i'm thinking lua
06:11:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:12:06 <cpressey> hm, lua patterns -- not so powerful (no captures)
06:12:16 <cpressey> hi oerjan
06:13:03 <oerjan> g'day
06:13:04 <cpressey> no no i wrong there is captures yay
06:13:26 <Ilari> IIRC, they have captures, but are not full regular expressions.
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06:16:17 <cpressey> yes.  looks like you can't do kleene star (etc) on a group.  only on a character class.
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06:19:55 <oerjan> 21:55:26 <cpressey> 23:51 < Riastradh> Boo!
06:19:55 <oerjan> 21:59:30 <cpressey> what's a good language to rewrite it in?
06:20:04 <oerjan> those were in the wrong order, right?
06:20:15 * oerjan whistles innocently
06:21:20 <cpressey> MNEH
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06:22:00 * oerjan doesn't actually know Boo, but it has a good name
06:22:18 <cpressey> Something about duck typing and .NET is all I remember
06:22:53 <oerjan> statically typed said google's wp abstract
06:23:06 * cpressey frowns
06:23:14 <cpressey> it could be static duck typed i guess
06:23:15 <oerjan> (you note i didn't bother to actually click it :D)
06:23:25 <oerjan> aka "structural"
06:23:39 <oerjan> (see: ocaml)
06:27:20 <cpressey> i was going to say ocaml
06:27:32 <cpressey> but "structural" i have never heard of in that way
06:39:24 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined.
06:39:30 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: hi!
06:39:30 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
06:39:40 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: what language are you written in now?
06:39:40 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
06:39:50 <cpressey> Lua!  You don't say!
06:39:50 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
06:39:54 <cpressey> whoops.
06:39:54 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
06:39:55 <lament> mzstorkipiwanbot: I have cancer
06:39:55 <mzstorkipiwanbot> lament: That's wonderful for you!
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06:40:14 <lament> i like this bot
06:42:12 <cpressey> it has Genuine People Personalities
06:42:13 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined.
06:42:25 <cpressey> it should not respond to me if I just say things
06:42:36 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot, but you should respond to this
06:42:36 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
06:42:40 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot!  and this!
06:42:40 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: That's wonderful for you!
06:42:48 <cpressey> but not this mzstorkipiwanbot
06:43:20 <cpressey> ok wow.  i am such an l33t c0d3r
06:43:34 <cpressey> now let's see if it survives a ping
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06:48:40 <oerjan> so was that a no
06:48:47 <oerjan> oh wait
06:48:57 <oerjan> it didn't say ping timeout
06:49:06 <cpressey> no, it did survive.  then i killed it
06:49:18 <oerjan> YOU MONSTER
06:49:33 <cpressey> i made it better, faster, stronger, able to respond to privmsgs
06:49:46 <cpressey> the six million drachma bot
06:55:25 <fizzie> From the Gophernicus (Gopher server) README: "Gophertags: A gophertag file can be used to rename a directory without renaming the di... uh, confusing. Ask Cameron."
06:55:30 <fizzie> That's some quality documentation.
06:56:13 <oerjan> Cameron was of course last seen prepare to fly a small plane over the pacific
06:56:18 <oerjan> *preparing
06:57:38 <oerjan> ironically looking for amelia earhart
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10:16:05 <cheater> hi
10:28:41 <cheater> anyone got the latest version of vagrant
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11:21:14 <alise> Crimes...
11:24:44 <alise> 15:39:31 <Sgeo> ST:V isn't bad
11:24:44 <alise> wrong
11:24:48 <alise> well right actually
11:24:50 <alise> it's terrible
11:29:24 <alise> 02:16:05 <cheater> hi
11:29:24 <alise> 02:28:41 <cheater> anyone got the latest version of vagrant
11:29:25 <alise> me.
11:44:13 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:45:11 <alise> <alise> 02:28:41 <cheater> anyone got the latest version of vagrant
11:45:11 <alise> <alise> me.
11:55:43 <alise> cheater: ^ presumably you want it?
12:11:39 <cheater> mayyyybe
12:19:00 <alise> [[The saying “I have got your back” almost never has the literal meaning of receipt or possession of another’s spine.]] --Wikipedia
12:19:57 <alise> cheater: do you have the new debug.py
12:19:59 <alise> ?
12:21:36 <alise> cheater:
12:21:37 <alise> http://pastie.org/1207461.txt?key=sjdgc6ofjjhavzf6dhcwvg vagrant.py
12:21:39 <alise> http://pastie.org/1207462.txt?key=yb3txfhuiste4fydjs3eg debug.py
12:22:47 <alise> cheater: I think this *may* break on Python 2.7.
12:22:52 <alise> Since it uses / for floor(x/y).
12:27:46 <alise> wait no it should work
12:45:51 <alise> cheater: BAH SO UNAPPRECIATIVE
12:53:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:53:24 <alise> Hi Phantom_Hoover.
12:53:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi.
12:54:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Alt.
12:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Ctrl?
12:55:17 <alise> Certainly.
12:55:45 <alise> Things I saw today: A pretentious person nit-picking perfectly fine grammar on a self-avowed prescriptivist's about page.
12:57:40 <alise> Erm.
12:57:44 <alise> *descriptivist's
12:57:48 <alise> I always mix 'em up, I do.
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13:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you actually watch that video?
13:01:50 <alise> Yes, goddammit! Stop mentioning t!
13:02:02 * alise strangles Phantom_Hoover
13:02:12 * Phantom_Hoover chokes.
13:02:20 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans alise --==\#/
13:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously I knocked him out.
13:04:10 <alise> Good lord, the writer of Megatokyo is over forty. It must take great skill to be that much of a 20-year-old shut-in for the purpose of making a terrible webcomic.
13:04:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
13:04:17 <alise> Yes, I am knocked out.
13:04:20 <alise> It is horrible.
13:07:21 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone have a copy of this month's National Geographic to hand?
13:07:50 <alise> No -- should I, and why?
13:07:54 -!- wareya has joined.
13:08:15 <alise> I like National Geographic's logo a lot.
13:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, I presume you noticed llvm 2.8 is out btw?
13:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The yellow rectangle?
13:09:18 <alise> Vorpal: I don't follow LLVM. Probably because I don't use it.
13:09:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
13:09:29 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you loved clang?
13:09:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's quite a strong brand identity, I feel. Also the proportions are nice.
13:09:49 <alise> Vorpal: Well, "love" is a bit strong for anything to do with C -- or Unix -- but I like it, yes.
13:09:54 <alise> gcc is still my go-to compiler out of laziness, however.
13:09:57 <Vorpal> right
13:10:09 <Vorpal> alise, well yeah, same here
13:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The proportions are more or less standard A4, aren't they?
13:10:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Feel free to work it out. Anyway, I just like it because it's extremely simple and sticks in the mind.
13:10:59 <Vorpal> hm indeed
13:12:08 * Phantom_Hoover installs Gimp.
13:12:42 <alise> Ahh, GIMP. It's utterly horrible and it's all you've got!
13:12:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep!
13:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, I only need to get approximate pixel counts.
13:13:16 <alise> The GIMP developers need, like, an award for terrible UI design.
13:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't GTK directly lifted out of GIMP?
13:14:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Sort of."
13:15:02 <fizzie> I've long known that the An series has the 1:sqrt(2) aspect ratio -- which is of course nice because of the fold-in-half property, 1/sqrt(2) = sqrt(2)/2 -- but I only recently realized that the absolute sizes have a logic in them, too: A0 has a surface area of one square metre. (Well, .0999949, but that's just because the edge lengths have been rounded to millimetres.)
13:15:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: When the GIMP started, they wrote all sorts of widgets and infrastructure to fit their needs.
13:15:13 <alise> Then they ripped GTK out of it, but I'm pretty sure it's been rewritten by now, what with 2.0 and all.
13:15:27 <fizzie> s/\.0/./
13:15:36 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, that's exactly why it was used.
13:15:47 <alise> fizzie: Yes, the An series is rather excessively mathematical. :)
13:16:03 <alise> The 1:sqrt(2) ratio isn't so aesthetically pleasing though, in my opinion.
13:16:12 <alise> I mean, A4 pieces of paper just look... slightly too long.
13:16:18 <fizzie> "It can be shown that the B series formats are geometric means  between the A series format with a particular number and the A series format with one lower number. For example, B1 is the geometric mean between A1 and A0." Heh.
13:16:53 <alise> [[In order to construct its interface GIMP uses the GIMP tool kit (GTK+). GTK+ was designed to replace Motif, a proprietary toolkit upon which GIMP depended. Originally GTK+ was a part of the GIMP source tree, but has since been made into a standalone library. While originally being designed to run on Unix-like operating systems, GIMP and GTK+ have been ported to Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, and other operating systems.]]
13:17:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So GTK+ was always separate, in another directory, at least. It seems.
13:17:32 <Phantom_Hoover> The NG logo is about .04 out from a 1:root 2 ratio.
13:18:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Based on your downscaled pixel copy.
13:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The error isn't significant at all.
13:19:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I wasn't using a particularly accurate method to get the pixel counts.
13:20:27 <alise> Right.
13:20:36 <alise> Now -- is it intentional?
13:20:54 <alise> "Beastie wontedly carries a trident to symbolize a software daemon's forking of processes."
13:20:58 <alise> Oh God, I never got that until now.
13:21:24 <alise> *groan*, the BSD daemon isn't free either:
13:21:26 <alise> [[The copyright of the BSD daemon is held by Marshall Kirk McKusick (a very early BSD developer who worked with Bill Joy). He has freely licensed the mascot for individual "personal use within the bounds of good taste (an example of bad taste was a picture of the BSD daemon blowtorching a Solaris logo)." Any use requires both a copyright notice and attribution.]]
13:24:20 <alise> Double groan -- and then from the linked page "Devilette":
13:24:24 <alise> [[Devilette (also known as daemonbabe, daemonchick, daemoness, daemonette, and BSD chick) is a brunette woman garbed in a red latex catsuit with horns and a tail, stylized after the BSD Daemon. They are often spotted as promotional models at BSD-related events. The original BSD chick was Ceren Ercen of FreeBSD Test Labs, whose position there was "Strange Attractor".]]
13:24:28 <alise> Sexism? What's that?
13:33:57 <cheater> alise: i like you because you have nice breastesses
13:34:08 <alise> Breast...esses.
13:34:38 <alise> That sentence is so flawed it needs a medal. Or a plaque, to warn others -- "On the 8th of October 2010, at this site, ..."
13:36:47 <cheater> alise: http://www.bishopston.com/jamie/misc/bsd-daemonette/bsd.jpg
13:36:50 <cheater> NOT HOT
13:36:56 <cheater> you see, the thing is
13:37:40 <cheater> miffy wo-Men whip their twats out in an attempt to attract the desperates, therefore creating sexism
13:37:45 <cheater> they're the actual source of it
13:37:49 <cheater> not the men.
13:38:08 <alise> I have absolutely no response.
13:42:06 <alise> cheater: you do realise you just tried to explain the existence of sexism with absurd sexism?
13:44:24 <cheater> why is that absurd?
13:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, the New Scientist have interviewed Jon Richfield.
13:45:08 * alise puts the troll on /ignore
13:48:54 <cheater> alise: ?
13:49:13 * cheater stares at alise real hard. :
13:49:16 <cheater> :|
13:51:05 * Phantom_Hoover stares into the void real hard.
13:53:23 <cheater> alise: ?
13:53:31 <cheater> bah
13:55:27 <cheater> alise: not funny.
13:57:19 -!- alise_ has joined.
13:57:25 <alise_> fondant
13:57:46 -!- tombom has joined.
13:58:00 <cheater> alise_: stop being silly
13:58:09 <cheater> alise_: are you mad at me or something?
13:58:25 <alise_> hm restarting my client removed the ignore
13:58:27 * alise_ fixes
14:00:19 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:00:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Mm, fondant.
14:00:41 <cheater> wtf
14:00:43 * Phantom_Hoover realises he doesn't know what fondant actually is.
14:00:46 <cheater> that just made no sense what so ever
14:01:04 <alise_> Now why is there a Jerry Falwell quote in my fortune DB?
14:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it's that cake icing stuff.
14:04:33 <alise_> Fondue fondant
14:13:04 <alise_> http://adamcadre.ac/content/deviance.png
14:13:06 <alise_> Deviant time zones.
14:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Wha...?
14:14:59 <alise_> See the legend.
14:15:06 <alise_> You know -- at the bottom.
14:15:17 <cheater> you suck, alise_.
14:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, that link redirects to http://a.imageshack.us/img714/3807/hotlinko.jpg
14:17:31 <alise_> Oh. Well, see the legend!
14:17:33 <alise_> http://adamcadre.ac/misc.html
14:17:37 <alise_> Click "this".
14:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But why did it do that in the first place?
14:19:02 <alise_> See the filename.
14:19:55 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
14:21:54 <cheater> alise: stop being childish. you haven't even discussed this with me, and decided to clam up like a teenag... oh.
14:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I still don't see why.
14:21:59 <cheater> :|
14:22:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hotlinking.
14:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
14:22:14 <alise> `quote
14:23:03 <alise> Alas, poor HackEgo.
14:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I knew him, Horatio.
14:23:40 <alise> I, too, can quote Shakespeare.
14:24:49 <cpressey> < alise> Vorpal: I don't follow LLVM. Probably because I don't use it.  <-- omg follow llvm on facebook
14:24:52 <HackEgo> No output.
14:24:52 <HackEgo> No output.
14:24:59 <alise> lawl
14:25:04 <alise> LLVM has 34573589347534895793478934534539458345 fans.
14:25:12 <Phantom_Hoover> `echo hellp
14:25:14 <HackEgo> hellp
14:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
14:25:23 <Phantom_Hoover> `ls
14:25:25 <cpressey> you can't.  but there is a llvm interest page.  written in italian, for reasons not known to me.  32 people like it.
14:25:28 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.11826 \ wunderbar_emporium
14:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> `ls bin
14:25:39 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ fuck \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ penis \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ twat \ unstr \ url \ vagina \ wolfram
14:25:42 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh  <Oranjer> ha  <Oranjer> heh  <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics?  <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain  <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
14:25:47 <cpressey> < alise> gcc is still my go-to compiler out of laziness, however.  <-- i have switcht to pcc
14:26:09 <alise> cpressey: haha, really?
14:26:18 <alise> `etymology etymology
14:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> `etymology entomology
14:27:30 <alise> `etymology rabies
14:27:51 <HackEgo> entomology \  1766, from Fr. entomologie (1764), coined from Gk. entomon "insect" + -logia "study of" (see -logy). Entomon is neut. of entomos "having a notch or cut (at the waist)," from en "in" (see en- (2)) + temnein "to cut" (see tome). So called by Aristotle in reference to the segmented division of insect bodies. Compare
14:27:51 <HackEgo> rabies \  1590s, from L. rabies "madness, rage, fury," related to rabere "be mad, rave" (see rage). Sense of "madness in dogs" was a secondary meaning in Latin. \  \  rage (n.) \  c.1300, from O.Fr. raige (11c.), from M.L. rabia, from L. rabies "madness, rage, fury," related to rabere "be mad, rave." Related to rabies, of
14:27:51 <HackEgo> etymology \  late 14c., ethimolegia "facts of the origin and development of a word," from O.Fr. et(h)imologie (14c., Mod.Fr. tymologie), from L. etymologia, from Gk. etymologia, properly "study of the true sense of a word," from etymon "true sense" (neut. of etymos "true," related to eteos "true") + logos "word." In classical
14:28:14 <cheater> `etymology childish
14:28:16 <HackEgo> childish \  O.E. cildisc "proper to a child," from child + -ish. Meaning "puerile, immature, like a child" in a bad sense is from early 15c. Related: Childishness. \  \  ma \  1823, childish or colloquial shortening of mamma. \  \  gran \  childish abbreviation of grandmother, 1863. \  \  peepee \  1923, childish reduplication
14:28:29 <cheater> `etymology clammed up
14:28:31 <HackEgo> No output.
14:28:40 <alise> `cat bin/etymology
14:28:48 <cheater> `etymology egocentric
14:28:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \     echo 'Look up what?' \     exit 1 \ fi \  \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \  \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \     --dump --width=1000 'http://etymonline.com/?search='"$QUERY" | \     grep -A 100 ']'"$1" | \     sed 's/\[[0-9]*\]//g ; s/ Look up.*// ; s/  */ /g'
14:29:03 <HackEgo> egocentric \  1900, from ego + -centric. Related: Egocentricity; egocentrism. \  \  \  * Introduction and abbreviations \  * Who did this? \  * Sources \  * Links \  \  *  2001-2010 Douglas Harper \  * Logo design by LogoBee.com \  * Page design and coding by Dan McCormack \  \ References \  \  1. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php
14:29:14 <cheater> `etymology egocentrism
14:29:16 <HackEgo> No output.
14:29:25 <cheater> `etymology egocentricity
14:29:32 <HackEgo> No output.
14:29:32 <cheater> `etymology selfish
14:29:36 <HackEgo> selfish \  1630s, from self + -ish. Said in Hacket's life of Archbishop Williams (1693) to have been coined by Presbyterians. In the 17c., synonyms included self-seeking (1620s), self-ended and self-ful. \  \  Let us understand what our own selfish genes are up to, because we may then at least have the chance to upset their
14:29:43 <cheater> `etymology infantile
14:29:46 <HackEgo> infantile \  1690s, "pertaining to infants," from L. infantilis, from infans (see infant). Sense of "infant-like" is from 1772. \  \  ta \  1772, "natural infantile sound of gratitude" [Weekley]. \  \  tummy \  1867, infantile for stomach. Tummy-ache is attested from 1926. \  \  poliomyelitis \  1878, from Gk. polios
14:29:51 <cpressey> alise: for my own stuff, yes.  obv there is not a lot "out there" that i can get to compile with it
14:30:21 <cpressey> `etymology infantry
14:30:23 <HackEgo> infantry \  1570s, from Fr. infantrie, from older It., Sp. infanteria "foot soldiers, force composed of those too inexperienced or low in rank for cavalry," from infante "foot soldier," originally "a youth," from L. infantem (see infant). \  \  zouave \  1848, from Fr., from Arabic Zwawa, from Berber Igawawaen, name of a
14:30:46 <alise> cpressey: hmm, i thought pcc had pretty good compatibility
14:30:49 <alise> any examples of failure?
14:31:13 <cpressey> alise: it's more to the effect of makefiles written with gcc specifically in mind.  also i'm lazy
14:31:32 <cpressey> *makefiles and such
14:33:00 <alise> cpressey: have you played VAGRANT yet?
14:33:16 <cheater> `etymology bipolar
14:33:18 <HackEgo> bipolar \  "having two poles," from bi- + polar; 1810 with figurative sense of "of double aspect;" 1859 with reference to physiology. Psychiatric use in reference to what had been called manic-depressive psychosis is said to have begun 1957 with Ger. psychiatrist Karl Leonhard. The term became popular early 1990s. Bipolar disorder
14:33:26 <cpressey> alise: no.  i will tonight if the latest copy is conspicuously posted to a pastbin somewhere.
14:33:39 <cpressey> i spent last night rewriting mzstorkipiwanbot in lua
14:33:45 <cpressey> well, not all night obv
14:33:57 <alise> cpressey: paste it now or later?
14:34:09 <cpressey> alise: now unless you plan awesome upgrades today
14:34:19 <alise> well, i am working on it
14:34:27 <alise> cpressey: it sort of lacks monster AI right now, but you can see how long you can survive and stuff
14:34:34 <alise> and rack up cash
14:35:26 <alise> It's currently 1600 bytes plus an ending newline.
14:35:38 <alise> (which isn't required, I just have it in there; I'll remove it, I guess)
14:35:53 <alise> oh, emacs doesn't let me :)
14:38:04 <cheater> `etymology silly
14:38:06 <HackEgo> silly \  O.E. geslig "happy" (related to sl "happiness"), from W.Gmc. *sligas (cf. O.N. sll "happy," Goth. sels "good, kindhearted," O.S. salig, M.Du. salich, O.H.G. salig, Ger. selig "blessed, happy, blissful"), from PIE base *sel- "happy" (cf. Gk. hilaros "gay, cheerful," L. solari "to comfort," salvus "whole, safe"). The
14:38:15 <cheater> haha
14:39:46 <alise> "You know Mario Kart is practically designed to let the worse player win, right?"
14:39:48 <alise> NO NO NO DON'T SAY THAT
14:40:41 <cheater> `etymology hateful
14:40:43 <HackEgo> hateful \  late 14c., from hate + -ful. \  \  loath \  O.E. la "hostile, repulsive," from P.Gmc. *laithaz (cf. O.Fris. leed, O.N. leir "hateful, hostile, loathed;" M.Du. lelijc, Du. leelijk "ugly;" O.H.G. leid "sorrowful, hateful, offensive, grievous," Ger. Leid "sorrow;" Fr. laid "ugly," from Frankish *laid). Weakened
14:40:55 <cheater> `etymology hostile
14:41:06 <cheater> `etymology unfair
14:41:09 <HackEgo> hostile \  late 15c., from M.Fr. hostile "of or belonging to an enemy," from L. hostilis, from hostis "enemy" (see guest). The noun meaning "hostile person" is recorded from 1838, Amer.Eng., a word from the Indian Wars. \  \  foe \  O.E. gefa "adversary in deadly feud," from fah "at feud, hostile," from P.Gmc. *fakhaz
14:41:09 <HackEgo> unfair \  O.E. unfgr "unlovely," from un- (1) "not" + fair. Cf. O.N. ufagr, Goth. unfagrs. Meaning "wicked, evil, bad" is recorded from c.1300. Sense of "not equitable, unjust" is first recorded 1713. \  \  unequal \  1530s, "unjust, unfair," from un- (1) "not" + equal. Meaning "not the same in amount, size, quality, etc." is recorded
14:41:41 <cheater> `etymology trustunworthy
14:41:48 <HackEgo> No output.
14:42:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:44:33 * alise writes AI super-verbosely to reduce later
14:52:41 <alise> Hey, they follow me now.
14:52:43 <alise> Unrealistically, but...
14:52:49 <alise> cpressey: Quick, propose a crazy HP system.
14:54:07 <alise> cpressey: ...I have a crazy one, if you're dry for ideas.
14:56:19 <cpressey> um
14:56:22 <cpressey> i am
14:56:34 <cpressey> atleastforthat
14:57:29 <alise> cpressey: Here's a clue (well -- giveaway) as to how my method works:
14:57:44 <alise> To decode the HP from the character value in the field, you do int(1/.(x-81))-1
14:57:50 <alise> >:)
14:57:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
14:58:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:59:34 <alise> cpressey: and to give the rest away, to encode the HP, add 1/(hp+1) to the character value.
14:59:38 <alise> so 2 hp = 81.5
14:59:47 <alise> erm
14:59:48 <alise> 1 hp
14:59:49 <alise> = 81.5
14:59:54 <alise> 123 hp = 81.008064516129039
14:59:55 <alise> or thereabouts
15:05:09 <cpressey> ?
15:05:58 <cpressey> hp for monsters,81=Q, i get that much
15:06:08 <cpressey> unless 81 is not Q
15:06:12 <cpressey> seems hi
15:06:26 <cpressey> no, it is
15:07:03 <cpressey> anyway, it might be more fair to say DICE C is my go-to compiler these days :D
15:07:23 <alise> cpressey: 81 is Q, yeah
15:07:27 <alise> but storing hp in the actual character grid
15:07:31 <alise> is done with this method
15:07:34 <alise> and then D() just does int(cell)
15:07:36 <alise> so that they all show as Q
15:07:38 <alise> :D
15:07:42 <alise> this is just my current plan
15:07:42 <cpressey> oh
15:07:48 <alise> if not entirely serious
15:07:55 <cpressey> here i thought beefier monsters would be R, S, T...
15:10:37 <alise> cpressey: ooh, that's almost an amazing idea
15:11:00 <alise> cpressey: but it's TOO PRECISE, it doesn't have float rounding quirks!
15:12:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Float rounding quarks!
15:17:19 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
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15:28:34 -!- augur has joined.
15:29:51 <alise> snorlid
15:32:27 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
15:32:42 <alise> cpressey_ sees all the presseys
15:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> " Scaling Everest was, by far, the most amazing and transformative experience of my life. Unfortunately, this is a thesis on context-free grammars. "
15:33:31 -!- nooga has joined.
15:33:52 <nooga> do you guys know any mechanical CADs for linux?
15:33:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... lawl.
15:36:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes :)
15:36:46 <alise> Gregor: (It's from the Little Lytton contest.)
15:36:52 <alise> *Lyttle
15:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> " The king of ketchups was being dethroned, and I wanted an explanation. "
15:37:08 <alise> [[ais523 wrote:
15:37:08 <alise> > the truth of the condition, the only conclusion is that it's undecidable
15:37:08 <alise> > whether or not alise managed to become inactive; unlike, say,
15:37:08 <alise> > registration where there's a requirement to be reasonably unambiguous,
15:37:08 <alise> Who's alise?]] --Ed Murphy, Agora
15:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wha?
15:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> " Anamaria had already gotten up obviously because there was no Anamaria in Anamaria’s bed. "
15:39:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Wha?"?
15:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Why did you paste that email?
15:39:20 <cpressey_> "Today we are randomly quoting stuff"
15:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> What was the context?
15:40:23 <alise> the context was given in the email!
15:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> What is ais going on about?
15:41:56 <alise> a scam
15:42:21 <alise> [[Dr. Metzger turned to greet his new patient, blithely unaware he would soon become a member of a secret brotherhood as old as urology itself.]]
15:42:34 <Phantom_Hoover> " Sophi broke down in tears, like a diesel car that had run out of petrol. "
15:42:44 <nooga> shmortz
15:44:24 <alise> "His eyes were brown, although you wouldn't know it just by looking."
15:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> " Under Bob’s fez was another. "
15:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "    * There is simply no scientific or mathematical formula that defines conservatism."
15:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> The sad part is that that's from a real bestseller.
15:54:48 <alise> "What I like about the second one is not the content but rather the way the reader has to suddenly recast what seemed like simple narration as the thoughts of a character who is for some reason thinking in the narrative pluperfect."
15:57:58 <Phantom_Hoover> What was that one, again?
15:58:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "This raises the question of how often Asian-Americans who themselves have Anglo names decide to play up the ethnic heritage angle. Like, if Matt and Lisa Sullivan of Somerville can stick their kid with something like Siobhan, do Tim and Amy Lee of Sunnyvale ever say, "Fuck it — we're going with Huang"? "
16:00:29 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> " The meteor formed a crater, vampires crawling out of the crater. "
16:02:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Bill's goiter had burst and it was on my head, Mary thought quietly." was it
16:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, that was it.
16:05:02 <alise> The door dilated[1].
16:05:03 <alise> [1]This is in the future, when doors dilate instead of opening the way they do now.
16:06:51 <alise> "It clawed its way out of Katie, bit through the cord and started clearing."
16:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> " Tuesday. Africa. Lion o’clock. "
16:08:30 <alise> [[Ah, poetic Paris: with its pâtés and beaujolais, tiramisu and au jus.]]
16:08:40 <alise> can't stop laughing
16:09:20 <alise> The ship sliced through the ocean like wood through water.
16:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> " The saying “I have got your back” almost never has the literal meaning of receipt or possession of another’s spine. " ← Wikipedia strikes back!
16:10:49 <alise> MacGyver had grown old.
16:11:22 <alise> “What a horrible future we live in!” said FutureMax!
16:11:43 <Phantom_Hoover> " *((Gotta put First Things First))* " — Sarah Palin
16:11:47 <alise> "The flowers in the meadow grew slowly, as did my erection."
16:11:48 <alise> HEY GUYS
16:11:52 <alise> WE'RE READING THE LYTTLE LYTTON RESULTS
16:11:55 <alise> ISN'T THAT QUOTABLE
16:12:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:13:57 <alise> Fukutsuru died in 2005 but his frozen sperm lived on for people’s benefit.
16:14:02 <alise> ^ this is the all-time winner, from Wikipedia
16:14:53 -!- lament has joined.
16:14:58 <alise> Alternate version of that: "Fukutsuru died in 2005 but he lives on through the continued use of his frozen sperm."
16:15:09 <alise> Fukutsuru is survived by his frozen sperm.
16:16:08 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
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16:19:03 <cpressey_> everything leaks memory
16:19:06 <cpressey_> everything
16:19:18 <cpressey_> it is unavoidable in some greater, pseudo-philosophical sense
16:19:21 <oerjan> aka second law of thermodynamics
16:19:40 <cpressey_> prit' near
16:20:12 <lament> that's a good justification for sloppy coding
16:21:27 <cpressey_> one among many
16:22:00 <cpressey_> the number one justification is still "who cares, it will save us tens of thousands of dollars", i think
16:23:17 <Gregor> The second law of thermodynamics is a good justification for sloppy coding.
16:23:22 <Gregor> I seeeeee...
16:23:43 <alise> Gregor has cpressey_ on ignore
16:26:18 <cpressey_> or he has collapse-aka turned on in his reasoning module
16:26:57 <cpressey_> Gregor: I am reminded of an NNTP header I saw on usenet once a long time ago
16:27:11 <cpressey_> Organization: None (why fight entropy?)
16:27:20 <Gregor> Heh
16:28:42 -!- zeotrope has joined.
16:28:42 <alise> I love the vision of an AI opening his Preferences dialogue and turning on all these silly options.
16:28:49 <alise> patience-level [====[ ]========]
16:28:58 <alise> [ ] use-contractions
16:29:28 <alise> *image, not vision
16:29:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
16:32:36 <Gregor> [ ] appreciate music and poetry
16:32:44 * oerjan wonders if blind people have auditions instead of visions
16:33:11 <alise> Gregor: NO ROBOST DO NOT USE SPACSE
16:33:16 <alise> BECAUSE COMPUTERS OND'T
16:33:31 <alise> I could not have spelled "don't" more incorrectly.
16:33:56 <oerjan> an evil spelling if you know your norwegian
16:35:34 <Gregor> alise: O'NTD say you couldn't have spelled "don't" more incorrectly.
16:37:38 <cpressey_> Huh?  I y5'pw think so.
16:38:02 <alise> eiorjt5
16:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Things in Hungary soptne look good...
16:42:57 <alise> Your fjosdijg.
16:43:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Wha?
16:45:55 <alise> \mfndfklgm.
16:46:38 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:48:17 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:48:45 <cpressey_> fungot: help
16:48:45 <fungot> cpressey_: i mean, there are alot of scheme documents including tutorials here: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ mzlib/ mzlib-z-h-40.htmlnode_chap_40
16:49:10 <cpressey_> EgoBot: help
16:49:18 <cpressey_> HackEgo: help
16:49:38 <cpressey_> mzstorkipiwanbot: help
16:49:39 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey_: That's wonderful for you!
16:57:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if the helium shortage will result in the moon landings being taken seriously again.
16:57:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
16:57:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
16:57:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
16:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
16:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Unmanned probes?
16:57:59 <oerjan> ...ah.  i guess norway can scratch that new trade deal we trying to get with china.
16:58:08 <oerjan> *we were
16:58:31 <alise> oerjan: :D
16:58:36 <alise> i love how it's we
16:58:41 <alise> like you're all part of the government
16:58:43 <alise> and share in the spoils
17:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, what are the alternative helium supplies?
17:01:37 <cpressey_> FUSION
17:01:42 <alise> FISSION
17:01:45 <alise> fiss it
17:02:11 <oerjan> atmosphere probably has some, even if it leaks
17:02:25 <alise> recycle the balloons
17:02:25 <alise> duh
17:02:26 <oerjan> it's just more expensive to extract
17:02:38 <alise> "you don't own the balloon, you just rent it out"
17:02:55 <oerjan> alise: the problem with that is that balloons leak helium too.
17:03:15 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
17:03:35 <oerjan> besides half the fun with helium balloons is making helium voices
17:03:49 <alise> SHUSH
17:03:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, just use hydrogen.
17:03:59 <alise> it was a joke
17:04:04 <alise> oerjan: omg i just realised that i've never inhaled helium
17:04:13 <alise> seconds later, i realise that i'm probably too scared to
17:04:16 <oerjan> i'm not sure i have either, actually
17:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I have.
17:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Although not much.
17:05:21 <alise> Fun fact: Joe Pasquale actually inhaled an entire tank of helium as a child.
17:05:31 <alise> And when it runs out...
17:06:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: why would there be more helium on the moon than earth, anyway?  it's not like the moon keeps it any better.
17:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Not Sure™.
17:07:24 <oerjan> without an atmosphere to speak of at all
17:07:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I could Google.
17:08:24 <alise> oerjan: well it's made of cheese, and we all know what a main component of cheese is...
17:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "The abundance of helium-3 is thought to be greater on the Moon (embedded in the upper layer of regolith by the solar wind over billions of years) and the solar system's gas giants (left over from the original solar nebula)"
17:08:56 <oerjan> also about fusion - last time i saw a discussion someone pointed out that to get enough helium from fusion we would have to increase energy consumption a _lot_
17:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You could always synthesise helium with a load of alpha sources.
17:09:05 <oerjan> (on reddit)
17:09:07 <alise> http://thisisindexed.com/ needs more plotlines.
17:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But that would be terribly inefficient.
17:09:14 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: FYOO ZHUN
17:09:18 <alise> oerjan: CAN WE NOT JOKE
17:09:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's helium-3, the less common isotope iirc
17:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes, but later in that sentence it says the He-4 concentration is ~28ppm.
17:09:55 <oerjan> alise: YOU DON'T JOKE ABOUT SCIENCE
17:10:06 <alise> http://fakescience.tumblr.com/
17:10:09 <alise> relevant, somehow
17:10:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm yeah i guess if there is a process to get it into the moon rock faster than it leaks out
17:10:53 <cpressey_> I want Vorpal to contribute to this discussion
17:11:01 <alise> cpressey_: i really don't
17:11:37 <cpressey_> alise: how about ancient Chinese sage Fu Zhun?
17:11:44 <alise> beats Vorpal
17:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, the helium is being smashed straight into the rocks, rather than having to go through an atmosphere.
17:12:05 <oerjan> indeed
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17:13:25 -!- augur has joined.
17:13:43 <alise> Ah, L'oeuvre of the Louvre.
17:17:30 <alise> http://www.rainerspehl.com/IEproject.php?nr=59 WOODEN LAPTOP CASE
17:19:58 <cpressey_> oerjan: the kolakoski sequence leaks memory.
17:20:44 <cpressey_> and the kolakoski sequence is part of number theory.  therefore number theory leaks memory
17:21:22 <oerjan> well in a sense every non-repeating sequence leaks memory
17:21:47 <oerjan> since you need arbitrary large memory to generate it
17:22:25 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolakoski_sequence
17:22:26 <alise> terrible
17:22:27 <alise> terrible
17:22:28 <alise> article
17:25:26 <cpressey_> oerjan: if a sequence is non-repeting, you need arbitrarily much storage; if you need arbitrarily much storage to generate it, your sequence must be non-repeating
17:25:51 <cpressey_> equivalent, unless my eyes deceive me!
17:25:59 <cpressey_> or whatever part of my body it is that does that
17:26:37 <cpressey_> but have we proved that kolakoski is non-repeating?  ... i don't recall
17:26:54 <cpressey_> i'd eat my hat if it wasn't
17:27:37 <cpressey_> note to self: go into the business of selling edible hats, for saving of face
17:29:15 <Ilari> Any computable sequence with known repeat is obiviously generatable with finite storage.
17:31:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:32:14 <alise> God, hallu is so awesome in Vagrant.
17:32:35 <alise> ais523: does nethack ever generate impossible characters in hallu?
17:32:40 <alise> like an unused symbol?
17:32:44 <ais523> alise: yews
17:32:45 <ais523> *yes
17:32:52 <ais523> at least, it generates unused symbol/color combos
17:33:02 <ais523> I don't think it generates a comma, which is the only printable ASCII character that isn't used for anything
17:33:14 <alise> err, what about 0?
17:33:18 <alise> people use that for boulders
17:33:19 <alise> what else is it?
17:34:56 <cpressey_> Moria for the Amiga came with a graphical Moria font.  A bit gratuitous, but hallucination while using it was pretty awesome.
17:34:59 <ais523> iron balls
17:35:06 <ais523> boulders are by default `
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17:35:12 <ais523> but people change them to 0 to make them easier to see
17:35:17 <alise> right
17:35:22 <alise> never seen iron balls :P
17:35:26 <ais523> (and iron balls are dark cyan compared to a boulder's grey, so you can't muddle them)
17:35:34 -!- augur has joined.
17:35:50 <cpressey_> i didn't realize cyan came in a dark but i suppose it does
17:36:23 <ais523> all colors come in a dark, except black and arguably white
17:36:47 <alise> dark cyan, i.e. blue
17:36:53 <alise> :P
17:36:56 <alise> (yeah, yeah, i know)
17:37:08 <alise> ais523: dark white is just gery
17:37:10 <alise> *grey
17:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you can get the iron ball by annoying your god in NetHack.
17:37:13 <ais523> yep
17:37:17 <cpressey_> i just think of it under another name i think.  like aquamarine
17:37:19 <ais523> alise: cyan is not a light blue
17:37:19 <alise> gray > or >= #888, say
17:37:25 <alise> ais523: yes, i know, i was joking
17:37:28 <ais523> this is one of the things that irritates me disproportionately
17:37:35 <ais523> as in, I'm some sort of Cyan Rights Crusader
17:37:42 <ais523> cyan is not blue! cyan is not green!
17:37:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:37:47 <alise> is it possible to have overgrown fingernails?
17:37:50 <alise> *ingrown
17:38:07 <ais523> I don't think so; fingers are a different shape
17:38:19 <ais523> the position for a nail which is ingrown for a toenail is correct for a fingernail
17:38:26 <Ilari> Hmm... Are there nonrepeating sequences that take o(log N) memory to generate, where N is number of terms to generate?
17:39:39 <cpressey_> Ilari: yes
17:39:52 <cpressey_> 01001000100001...
17:42:31 <Ilari> The string length seems to grow quadrically with counter, which in turn takes O(log N) bits to store, thus it would be O(log sqrt(N)) = O(log N) which is not o(log N).
17:43:38 <cpressey_> Ilari: I mixed up o and O.
17:43:57 <alise> o(O(log N))
17:44:04 <ais523> hmm, Microsoft are discussing buying Adobe?
17:44:06 <ais523> what?
17:44:16 <cpressey_> Ilari: I imagine kolakoski takes o(log N) but have no way of showing that.
17:44:20 <ais523> (potential worry: Flash and Silverlight with the same owner)
17:44:49 <cpressey_> Microsoft owns Flash?
17:44:55 <alise> No, but Adobe do.
17:44:55 <cpressey_> Well whatever
17:45:00 <cpressey_> Oh right
17:45:07 <cpressey_> Silverlight is the MSFT thing
17:45:12 <cpressey_> that no one cares about
17:45:14 <cpressey_> (well, I don't)
17:45:20 <ais523> we will have to compete against them with, umm, HTML5?
17:45:26 <alise> ais523: Then Intel will buy Microsoft. The entire software industry will be one gigantic matryoshka doll!
17:45:27 <Ilari> At least Keränen sequence actually takes theta(log N) memory to generate (like any self-expanding sequence)...
17:45:43 <cpressey_> SUNTELSOFT
17:45:49 <ais523> alise: intel buying Microsoft is something that seems really implausible
17:45:57 <alise> "Buy me Microsoft." "Sir, the last time you gave an order like that, we ended up acquiring--" "Worked, didn't it?"
17:46:02 <ais523> actually, you could get more layers with McAfee buying Microsoft...
17:46:20 <alise> ais523: *that* is the least implausible thing ever though
17:46:30 <alise> the reverse is more likely, but that'd require Microsoft *acquiring Intel*
17:46:32 <alise> which is ludicrous
17:46:43 <cpressey_> Apple just bought Verizon
17:46:44 <ais523> then Apple can buy AMD
17:46:51 <alise> wait
17:46:52 <ais523> cpressey_: reallly?
17:46:55 <alise> Microsoft are richer than Intel
17:46:57 <alise> I never quite realised
17:46:59 * cpressey_ LIES
17:47:16 <alise> microsoft will never buy anybody big though
17:47:19 <alise> after that antitrust
17:47:23 <alise> what happened to the resolution of that?
17:47:25 <ais523> they might if they were unrelated
17:47:26 <alise> it's like they're back to normal
17:47:29 <alise> weren't they meant to be split up?
17:47:30 <ais523> Microsoft buying General Motors, or whatever
17:47:35 <ais523> alise: what happened was that Bush came into power
17:47:37 <alise> I approve
17:47:40 <alise> (of Microsoft buying GM)
17:47:41 <cpressey_> i just wanted to throw a different vertical into the mix
17:47:44 <ais523> and effectively gave them some sort of presidential pardon
17:47:49 <ais523> I think just by leaning on the courts
17:47:51 <alise> ais523: Ooh, how overtly political for you! Ahem. Anyway.
17:47:58 <alise> ("For", not "of".)
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17:48:12 <ais523> alise: hey, I'm overtly political, but only when people ask me a direct question about it
17:48:23 <alise> ais523: WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS ON POLITICS
17:48:28 <alise> [ais523 composes a five-page reply.]
17:48:31 <ais523> heh
17:48:41 <ais523> well, I approve of the current government, for the time being
17:48:46 <ais523> (in the UK, that is)
17:48:49 <alise> really?
17:48:51 <ais523> yep
17:49:03 <alise> so, the tories then
17:49:07 <ais523> I was terrified that the Conservatives would get into power, but the coalition doesn't seem to have done anything too bad yet
17:49:15 <alise> (If you say "also the Lib Dems", I will probably shoot you.)
17:49:20 <ais523> (I disagreed with much of the conservative manifesto, but they haven't tried to use those bits yet)
17:49:22 <alise> ais523: the conservatives are in power!
17:49:29 <alise> they're just being pulled slightly by the lib dems
17:49:56 <ais523> I agree with the huge cuts in public spending that are needed to try to solve some of the national debt
17:50:07 <ais523> but I'm upset they didn't raise taxes more at the same time
17:50:22 <ais523> alise: yes, I know; more than slightly, actually
17:50:25 <alise> I don't remember the last time just cutting spending actually solved anything.
17:50:35 <ais523> well, it helps to solve a lack of money
17:50:58 <alise> You'd think, wouldn't you? Economics is the only science based on something almost, but not entirely like logic.
17:51:03 <ais523> I would have voted Liberal at the last election, if I was in the correct country at the time and there hadn't been a mixup around arranging a proxy vote
17:51:06 <alise> *unlike
17:51:11 <alise> that did not work without that correction.
17:51:15 <alise> *entirely,
17:51:41 <alise> "Of course you can for numbers like the Champernowne constant, for obvious reasons, but I've been thinking lately: is it even possible to prove normality (for any base) for numbers like e and pi? What about disproving it? It seems like such a concept that is unrelated to real mathematics (don't know how to phrase what I mean by that), and just seems impossible to prove. Any general thoughts about this?" --xkcd forum, displaying intense intelligence
17:51:51 <ais523> (although the seat I vote in is safe Labour, with Conservatives easily second)
17:51:55 <alise> I wonder why he thinks it's so "unreal".
17:51:55 <ais523> (so it really doesn't matter which way I vote)
17:52:00 <alise> Perhaps because you can't enumerate all of pi's digits?
17:52:20 <alise> ais523: the Tories actually ousted the Lib Dems in Oxford, strangely enoguh
17:52:21 -!- augur has joined.
17:52:21 <alise> *enough
17:52:24 <alise> despite it being a safe lib dem seat
17:52:26 <ais523> I think he/she means it doesn't have any obvious practical applications
17:52:32 <alise> (I forget *which* Oxford)
17:52:57 <ais523> Universities are generally so strongly Labour, it's frightening
17:53:05 <ais523> I think all my friends here are Labour voters, or at least most of them
17:53:18 <alise> Oxford West and Abingdon
17:53:25 <ais523> (I tend to disagree with people who vote for parties without actually checking their manifestos...)
17:53:28 <alise> I think that's the one without the University but with everything else
17:53:31 <alise> oh, a minority of colleges are inside it
17:53:54 <alise> on they MP they replaced:
17:53:56 <alise> [[A Daily Mail article published on October 31, 2007 highlighted Harris' positions on social issues, castigating him as 'Dr. Death' for his "views on abortion, voluntary euthanasia, immigration and gay rights". The 'Dr. Death' term was subsequently used on numerous occasions, generally by Christian conservatives, in criticising Harris, including articles by Damian Thompson[20], Cristina Odone [21] and Nadine Dorries.]]
17:54:08 <alise> you can't get much of a better compliment than the Daily Mail calling you Dr. Death
17:54:15 <ais523> it's the Daily Mail
17:54:18 <alise> precisely
17:54:21 <ais523> its only job is to reflect the opinions of uninformed people
17:54:22 <alise> i wasn't being sarcastic
17:54:29 <alise> ais523: Reflect? No -- create.
17:54:32 <ais523> in order that they buy it in order to confirm their own opinions
17:54:51 <ais523> alise: I think it wouldn't sell so well if it ran contrary to existing opinions on the matter
17:54:53 <cpressey_> reflreate
17:55:08 <ais523> e.g. if it said that, say, mobile phone masts were harmless, none of its readership would believe it
17:55:09 <alise> ais523: yes, the general "philosophy" -- as much as it exists -- is a reflection
17:55:16 <alise> but in the individual instances, it influencse
17:55:18 <alise> *influences
17:55:32 <cpressey_> like a tuning fork
17:55:47 <alise> I mean, I'm sure someone who thinks "immigrants takin oor jobbs" and reads the Daily Mail gets an awful lot of their opinions from it.
17:56:40 <alise> close-minded -- drops the "d" after close, presumably using the "-ed" to replace it; discuss
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18:02:40 <cpressey_> Ilari: I bet the digits of a Chaitin's Omega require o(log n) storage.  I could even venture o(n), from what I understand.
18:03:11 <Ilari> Actually, maybe there are sequences that require o(log N) memory to generate. In practicular if there are superpolynomial functions f(n) that can be computed with log(f(n)) memory.
18:05:46 <Ilari> And those functions are subexponential.
18:08:39 <cpressey_> "normality (for any base)" -- wtf does this mean?
18:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, same average digit count.
18:09:26 <ais523> cpressey_: normality in a number is that each digit has an equal chance of occurring in the first n digits of its decimal expansion, in the limit for n
18:09:40 <alise> Devils! Artichokes! A burning feeling that you're where you should be!
18:09:46 <alise> All these have DIGITS in common.
18:10:12 <alise> Quickly: pick a random number between one and infinity.
18:10:35 <Phantom_Hoover> g_A(G,G)
18:10:56 <alise> Quickly: pick a random number between one and infinity.
18:11:04 <cpressey_> if i pick it it won't be random anymore
18:11:52 <cpressey_> but if you establish normality for one base, doesn't that imply normality in all bases?
18:12:15 <cpressey_> with a possible exception for unary
18:12:21 <cpressey_> unary, the freak base
18:12:58 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderfuck ACTUAL ARTICLE
18:13:10 <alise> cpressey_: does it? why?
18:13:22 <alise> also, unary isn't a (positional) base
18:13:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:13:45 <ais523> alise: 4
18:13:46 <cpressey_> alise: it feels like it should
18:13:58 <ais523> this was actually randomly selected via a program that could select any number from 1 to infinity
18:13:59 <Gregor> alise: In Soviet Russia, gender fuck YOUUUUUUU
18:14:04 <ais523> but not with an equal probability of each
18:14:08 <alise> ais523: there ex- right.
18:14:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ais523: BTW, number does not mean integer.
18:14:40 <ais523> oh, right
18:14:54 <ais523> alise: to be precise, I was generating cryptosecure nybbles (with /dev/random as an entropy source) using ssl rand, then counting the number before the first 0
18:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but it *could*.
18:15:19 <cpressey_> "mean"
18:15:44 <alise> ais523: in Perl, rand(1) X 1 -- X := < or X := <=, which is true?
18:15:49 <alise> what a confusing way of putting it
18:15:54 <alise> ais523: in Perl, can rand(1) ever == 1?
18:16:02 <ais523> no
18:16:08 <ais523> it's from 0 up to but not including 1
18:16:39 <alise> ais523: hmm, then how does one write one that includes 1?
18:16:55 <alise> without relying on float stuff?
18:17:12 <ais523> my $x=2; $x = rand(2) while $x > 1;
18:17:28 <ais523> I think that gets the probabilities rigth
18:17:29 <ais523> *right
18:17:38 <alise> yikes.
18:17:43 <ais523> without having to mess with float deltas or anything like that
18:17:51 <ais523> 0 to 1 inclusive isn't all that useful a range to randomize in, though
18:18:00 <ais523> normally, you're doing int(rand(n)) to get a random integer from 0 to n-1
18:18:06 <ais523> also, why yikes?
18:18:16 <cpressey_> from mersenne import twister
18:19:02 <alise> ais523: it was scary at first
18:19:10 <Gregor> Hmmmm
18:19:17 <ais523> but looks sensible now?
18:19:21 <alise> right
18:19:39 <Gregor> If you could "reinterpret_cast" in Perl, you could just reinterpret_cast 1.0 to an integer of the same size, add 1, and reinterpret_cast back, then pass that to rand() :P
18:20:37 <pikhq> Gregor: You can do much crazier casting than *that* in Perl.
18:21:03 <cpressey_> you could read from /dev/random
18:21:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Presuming, of course, that you're fine with blessing values.
18:21:22 <Gregor> WHICH I AM NOT
18:21:26 <Gregor> I do not tolerate blessing.
18:21:31 <ais523> Gregor: reinterpret_cast doesn't really make much sense in that context
18:21:42 <ais523> given that Perl scalars have a string and a numeric value which need not be correlated
18:22:22 <Gregor> ais523: Most things don't make sense in the context of Perl.
18:22:28 <Gregor> ais523: Perl sucks all logic and reason out of the universe.
18:22:34 <Gregor> ais523: It is The Beast.
18:23:30 <alise> -- says Gregor, who just talked about C++.
18:24:11 <Gregor> reinterpret_cast was easier to say than (*((long long *) &var))++
18:24:13 <cpressey_> reinterpret_perl(C++)
18:24:14 <alise> [[Breast fetishism (also known as mastofact, breast partialism, or mazophilia)[1] is a type of sexual fetish which involves a sexual interest in female breasts.] --Wikipedia
18:24:17 <alise> *]]
18:24:26 <alise> Vagina fetishism is a type of sexual fetish which involves ...
18:24:37 <alise> Gregor: Suuuure.
18:24:50 <ais523> $ perl -e '$! = 18; print $!,$/'
18:24:51 <ais523> Invalid cross-device link
18:24:58 <alise> ais523: ...what
18:25:05 <alise> oh
18:25:08 <alise> the error message
18:25:10 <ais523> in this case, $! simultaneously has the values 18 and "Invalid cross-device link"
18:25:12 <cpressey_> < ais523> given that Perl scalars have a string and a numeric value which need not be correlated  <-- i learn something new every day
18:25:29 <Gregor> cpressey_: New and horrifying.
18:25:30 <alise> ais523: hmm, how does one automatically set one based on the other?
18:25:37 <alise> or can only perl(1) do that?
18:25:55 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ perl -e '$! = (0..10); print $!,$/'
18:25:55 <alise> Operation not permitted
18:26:02 <alise> IT IS NOT PERMITTED TO LOOK AT THE FIRST TEN ERROR MESSAGES
18:26:49 <ais523> try perl -e '($! = $_), print $! for (0..10)'
18:26:53 <ais523> you can't assign an array to a scalar
18:27:12 <Gregor> Perl: It is the worst.
18:27:40 <Gregor> `run perl -e 'print "I'\''m evil!";'
18:28:03 <ais523> $ perl -e 'use Scalar::Util qw/dualvar/; $a = dualvar 1,"b"; print $a+0; print $a.""; print "\n"'
18:28:04 <ais523> 1b
18:28:30 <Gregor> *sobs*
18:28:32 * ais523 is not entirely certain what people would use dualvar /for/, but Scalar::Util is a good place for it
18:29:19 <cpressey_> i only wish both those values could be references
18:29:35 <ais523> cpressey_: well, you can have a reference to a scalar with such a value
18:29:42 <ais523> what you're saying doesn't really make sense, though
18:29:48 <ais523> it's just, you have a scalar with a string value and a numeric value
18:29:55 <ais523> and the two don't resemble each other, like they generally do
18:30:05 <cpressey_> $a = dualvar \$b,\$c;
18:30:14 <cpressey_> i know, it doesn't work that way
18:30:51 <ais523> I don't really see how the string value of a scalar could be, you know, not a string
18:31:21 <alise> ais523: how can you automatically set the string version based on the number -- or can you?
18:31:32 <ais523> alise: add 0
18:31:48 <ais523> addition just gives you a number
18:31:55 <HackEgo> I'm evil!
18:32:01 <ais523> that took a while...
18:32:09 <Gregor> Yes ...
18:32:11 <Gregor> WTF, Codu
18:32:21 <Gregor> `echo But now I'm fast again.
18:32:23 <HackEgo> But now I'm fast again.
18:32:28 <alise> ais523:
18:32:29 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ perl -e 'use Scalar::Util qw/dualvar/; $a=dualvar 1,2; print $a+1; print $a.""; print $/'
18:32:29 <alise> 22
18:32:37 <alise> Behold! The string value of the number is an integer.
18:32:44 <alise> WHAT NOW SCIENCE
18:32:57 <ais523> the string value is "2"
18:32:58 <ais523> not 2
18:32:59 <Gregor> alise: I'm betting somewhere within dualvar it casted that to a string.
18:33:14 <ais523> well, 2 has a numeric value 2, and a string value "2"
18:33:24 <Gregor> Oh, of course.
18:33:36 <alise> <3
18:33:40 <ais523> so it just took the string value from 2
18:33:58 <ais523> hmm... is "true but False" working in Rakudo yet?
18:33:58 <Gregor> Perl: It is evil.
18:34:01 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ perl -e 'use Scalar::Util qw/dualvar/; $a=dualvar "a",1; print $a+1; print $a.""; print $/'
18:34:01 <alise> 11
18:34:02 <cpressey_> but what if you do $a=dualvar 1,$b where $b=dualvar 1,"x"
18:34:18 <ais523> cpressey_: it'd just take the string part of $b
18:34:20 <alise> cpressey_: it kills your only son
18:34:33 <alise> if you have more than one son, it kills the others so the remaining one is your only son, then kills that
18:34:34 * Sgeo assassinates Perl
18:34:35 <ais523> alise: the numeric value of "a" is 0
18:34:40 <alise> if you don't have a son, it makes you give birth to one
18:34:41 <alise> and then kills it
18:34:46 <alise> ais523: indeed
18:34:52 <ais523> really, this is all quite logical
18:34:59 <cpressey_> the numeric value of EVERYTHING is 0
18:35:09 <Sgeo> cpressey, itym "EVERYTHING"
18:35:12 <ais523> unless it happens to look like a number
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18:35:35 <ais523> Sgeo: you don't have to quote strings in Perl, if it's unambiguous without
18:35:40 <ais523> (although use strict; checks for that sort of thing)
18:35:48 <Sgeo> bibble
18:35:48 <ais523> impomatic: did you ever get that program working?
18:36:07 <Sgeo> You need quotes around "STDIN" but not EVERYTHING then?
18:36:21 <Sgeo> Or, crud
18:36:25 <Sgeo> Depends on context?
18:36:27 <ais523> Sgeo: no, because there's no context where you can validly have either a string, or the name of a filehandle
18:36:31 <Sgeo> Ah
18:36:56 <impomatic> ais523: JclRobots? Yes, the new version is working, but only on the latest beta release of Tcl.  8.5.9 didn't support something it needed
18:37:00 <alise> Sgeo: stop saying bibble!
18:37:02 <alise> Jcl!
18:37:03 -!- augur has joined.
18:37:04 <alise> It's like Tcl but in JAVA
18:37:10 <ais523> e.g. print STDIN "Hello, world!" is different from print STDIN, "Hello, world!" which is different from print *STDIN, "Hello, world!"
18:37:17 <ais523> impomatic: I meant the BF Joust program
18:37:21 <Sgeo> *STDIN ?
18:37:37 <ais523> Sgeo: the set of all variables named something followed by STDIN, or else the concept of the variable name STDIN itself
18:37:55 <impomatic> Oh right :-)  Yes, it was only a simple example for the wiki, not even competitive.
18:37:58 <ais523> because there isn't actually a sigil for filehandles, you need to use that notation to pass them to functions instead
18:38:09 <ais523> even some simple programs can be competitive
18:38:28 <Sgeo> alise, why should I stop saying bibble?
18:38:40 <alise> it makes you sound like you're a few months old.
18:38:48 <ais523> o
18:38:55 <Sgeo> Besides the fact that I'm not an image editor
18:38:57 <alise> okokokokoko
18:39:02 <alise> Sgeo: what
18:39:11 <Sgeo> http://bibblelabs.com/
18:39:19 <ais523> wow, what a coincidence! I'm not an image editor either
18:41:04 <Sgeo> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bibble
18:41:14 <Sgeo> WTF? For the record, I never used it to mean any of those things
18:41:38 <alise> You definitely meant it as #2.
18:42:01 <alise> Or #4.
18:42:44 <ais523> amusing ontopic Wikipedia vandalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&diff=389517231&oldid=389497650
18:43:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:43:45 <ais523> although whatever program generated that clearly wasn't designed for characters significantly past 255 in Unicode
18:44:37 <Sgeo> hm?
18:44:41 <alise> ha
18:44:49 <alise> wow, slow-loading page
18:44:53 <alise> Sgeo: presumably the article has unicode in it
18:44:59 <Sgeo> ho!
18:45:20 <ais523> alise: it's quite a large page...
18:45:41 <Sgeo> ^^that particular random barely-a-reference brought to you by the Cartoon Guide to Statistics
18:45:50 -!- augur has joined.
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18:51:49 <Gregor> ais523: I assume the result of that program was the entire page?
18:51:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:52:04 <ais523> Gregor: so do I, I haven't tried to run it
18:52:09 <pikhq> Hey, look. A Nobel Peace Prize winner that has *actually done something*!
18:52:21 <pikhq> Liú Xiǎobō, human rights activist in the PRC. Currently in jail.
18:52:27 <pikhq> The PRC is currently very pissed.
18:52:49 <pikhq> (刘晓波 or 劉曉波)
18:52:49 <Gregor> The PRC is always pissed.
18:53:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:53:21 <pikhq> Yes, but not usually to the point of blacking out all foreign news and forbidding all discussion of the Nobel Prize in domestic news.
18:54:05 <Gregor> pikhq: Mmmm, they're all about censorship though.
18:54:12 <Gregor> pikhq: So that's not wildly beyond their usual douchebaggery.
18:54:40 <pikhq> Gregor: They're also claiming that this award goes against Nobel principles.
18:55:33 <pikhq> And being very very pissy to the Norwegian ambassador.
18:55:35 <Gregor> pikhq: Still very typical douchebaggery.
18:55:44 <pikhq> Yeah, true.
18:57:59 <pikhq> They're also arresting university students for celebrating the first Chinese winner of the Nobel Prize.
18:59:41 <Gregor> The PRC: They are douchebags. This we know.
18:59:47 <Gregor> They are capable of ANY level of douchebaggery.
18:59:55 <Gregor> It is a government that severely needs to be wiped from the globe.
19:00:18 <pikhq> Though there are countries that need it worse.
19:00:20 <Gregor> It is the most regressive government outside of the middle east and sub-Saharan Africa.
19:00:25 <pikhq> North Korea.
19:00:42 <Gregor> OK, that's true ... but North Korea is so TYPICALLY evil :P
19:01:01 <pikhq> North Korea is just the most regressive government. :)
19:01:30 <pikhq> ... And appears to run their government based on Bond villians.
19:02:05 <cpressey_> alise: it's pretty easy to show that if a number is normal in base n, it is also normal in base n^2 and in base n/2 (for even n obv)
19:02:50 <alise> <ais523> Gregor: so do I, I haven't tried to run it ;; in case it deletes all your files? :-P
19:03:04 <Gregor> alise: Too lazy.
19:03:11 <alise> <Gregor> It is the most regressive government outside of the middle east and sub-Saharan Africa. ;; yeah, North Korea, pikhq got there first :P
19:03:13 <Gregor> pikhq: I think what bothers me most about China is that you can get enough of an impression of how normal life is in China to see that people are blinded and actively lied to by their government, but in North Korea is't just a giant mystery.
19:03:40 <Gregor> I mean, you KNOW they are, but really we have no idea. It's friggin' North Korea.
19:03:46 <alise> North Koreans want change but would never, ever ask for it.
19:03:54 <alise> They sort of have this food problem to deal with first.
19:04:03 <alise> Also, the not-getting-killed-by-voting thing.
19:04:10 <alise> Well.
19:04:15 <alise> Not getting killed by spoiling your ballot.
19:05:36 <pikhq> Gregor: You can get *an* idea of what it's like in North Korea. Courtesy of defectors.
19:06:00 <pikhq> Imperfect, though.
19:06:18 <pikhq> Whereas the PRC... They let everyone know about *all* the crazy!
19:07:41 <Gregor> They just have too many people and too much vitality to do anything about it.
19:07:58 <alise> Briggard: thou pitst'k on desgrute.
19:08:02 <pikhq> Yup, Palin is running in 2012.
19:08:34 <cpressey_> pikhq: joy
19:08:53 <pikhq> If she wins, I'm asking for refugee status.
19:10:31 <cpressey_> next step: ayn rand's profile on a coin
19:10:47 <cpressey_> you know it's coming
19:11:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:12:16 <pikhq> cpressey_: If that happens I think we should eradicate the US.
19:12:30 <pikhq> Turn Canada into a continent.
19:13:07 <alise> Canadia
19:15:24 <nooga> derp
19:15:45 <alise> this room has ten walls and i am the third
19:17:45 <pikhq> Oh, and Obama is calling for the PRC to release Liú Xiǎobō.
19:20:33 <pikhq> Oh, that's wonderful. The prize is being officially termed "blasphemy".
19:21:01 <pikhq> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
19:21:40 <alise> "two years' deprivation of political rights"
19:21:55 <alise> Ahh, I love how everybody uses "rights" to mean "rights that we have decided are privileges".
19:22:06 <pikhq> Ain't it "wonderful"?
19:25:55 <cpressey_> "A given infinite sequence is either normal or not normal, whereas a real number, having a different base-b expansion for each integer b >= 2, may be normal in one base but not in another (Cassels 1959 and Schmidt 1960)." --WP
19:25:58 <cpressey_> bah
19:27:41 <pikhq> http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/137/137517/13751746/jpg/active/320x.jpg
19:28:40 <pikhq> It's like he doesn't even realise that the Norwegian government has no influence on the Norwegian Nobel Committee.
19:29:02 <pikhq> Oh, except that the members are appointed by Norwegian Parliament.
19:30:24 <alise> if Taiwan wanted to crush China and get their independence universally recognised
19:30:30 <alise> they just have to build a billion sweatshops!
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19:34:27 <pikhq> <evilotto> counting utf-8 characters is easy - just take the byte count, then subtract the number of bytes in the range 128-192.
19:34:30 <pikhq> *blink*
19:34:41 <pikhq> That... Actually works on well-formed UTF-8.
19:35:16 <alise> No shit :P
19:35:23 <alise> pikhq: But it's quicker to skip over characters.
19:35:28 <pikhq> alise: True.
19:35:35 <alise> As Colin Percival did.
19:35:38 <cpressey_> you have to traverse the string anyway, so yes
19:35:39 <alise> (After Kragen Sitaker.)
19:35:45 <pikhq> Oh, that does fuck up one thing...
19:35:55 <pikhq> Character composition.
19:36:10 <cpressey_> bah
19:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. WP's begging for donations again.
19:36:33 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: they need to offer me a tardis mug
19:36:41 <cpressey_> ok... uk people are *not* going to get that
19:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> How can UK people not get a TARDIS reference?
19:37:38 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: do you get PBS on your TV?
19:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
19:37:49 <cpressey_> if not, you can only imagine the mug to which I refer
19:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So is PBS the Doctor Who channel for the US?
19:38:19 <cpressey_> PBS is the only source of non-American TV for the US, afaict
19:38:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It was in the past (classic Who)
19:38:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The new one got aired on Sci-Fi, and then moved to BBCA.
19:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> *SyFy
19:38:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It was never SyFy when they had Doctor Who.
19:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Literacy isn't Xtreme Kool.
19:39:05 <alise> *Syfy
19:39:10 <alise> And it's pronounced "siffie".
19:39:13 <alise> I swear to god it is.
19:39:14 <cpressey_> *Fuck
19:39:55 <alise> pikhq: Does BBC America air the *UK* BBC news?
19:39:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, tell us of this mug from the far distant land of America.
19:40:08 <alise> Sure, it's partly irrelevant... but oh so comforting!
19:40:20 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: YOU PUT COFFEE IN IT AND THE TARDIS DECAL WOULD FADE TO INVISIBLE
19:40:30 <alise> <pikhq> Character composition. ;; you mean like combining umlaut and shit?
19:40:35 <cpressey_> coffee, not tea, because this is AMERICA.
19:40:39 <alise> well obviously it counts codepoints not graphemes
19:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, the awesomeness!
19:40:44 <alise> because counting the latter is LOLIMPOSSIBLE
19:40:58 <alise> cpressey_: I WANT IT
19:41:12 <cpressey_> now i regret not giving them money
19:41:24 <cpressey_> pbs has turned into a shopping channel for videos now, though
19:42:02 <alise> on Microsoft buying Adobe: "Merging two huge globs that each can extract rent on their various properties into a single similar vast glob. What could possibly go wrong..." "The combined corporate mass would exceed the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit and they would collapse into a black hole?"
19:42:04 <alise> --Hacker News
19:42:06 <pikhq> alise: They do the BBC World newscast every weekday in the evening.
19:42:11 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT
19:42:12 <pikhq> IIRC.
19:42:26 <alise> pikhq: I want the ten o' clock news as it airs on BBC 1!
19:42:29 <alise> Daily!
19:43:02 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what I'd love? The ability to pay the BBC license fee and stream BBC over the Internet. While in the US.
19:43:18 <alise> pikhq: It's more than you probably think it is.
19:43:31 <alise> £145.50 for colour, £49 for black and white.
19:43:35 <alise> (Yes, you can pay for just black and white.)
19:43:40 <alise> That's yearly.
19:43:47 <alise> So that's...
19:43:51 <alise> $230.72/year.
19:44:13 <alise> pikhq: $19.23/month, paid annually. Actually that's surprisingly cheap...
19:44:24 <alise> pikhq: Also, iPlayer quality isn't that good, unfortunately.
19:44:38 <alise> And downloading it requires a separate program that pretends to be an iPhone.
19:44:53 <alise> pikhq: Also shows disappear after something like seven days.
19:45:29 <alise> pikhq: You also can't stream the channels, just the news and stuff.
19:45:33 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean actually stream it. Properly.
19:45:35 <alise> But yeah, if it existed, I'd approve.
19:45:50 <pikhq> Also, dammit, I want multicast on the public Internet.
19:46:01 <alise> pikhq: For news itself, though, I presume you know about http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/.
19:46:04 <pikhq> Fuck the cable infrastructure, multicast streaming, bitch.
19:46:12 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, it's in my RSS reader.
19:46:13 <alise> pikhq: Which is, incidentally, the world's *only* well-designed news website.
19:46:23 <alise> Disagree? Try me.
19:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Microsoft bought Adobe‽
19:46:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They're in talks.
19:46:39 <pikhq> I suspect this will make Flash suck more.
19:46:51 * Phantom_Hoover 's brain explodes
19:46:57 <alise> pikhq: Well, certainly on Linux/OS X.
19:47:09 <alise> On Windows ... it's actually already acceptable on Windows, or, well, moreso than other OSes.
19:47:13 <alise> So that doesn't help.
19:47:15 <cpressey_> It's somewhat humbling that almost all real numbers are uncomputable.
19:47:18 <alise> Now if Apple bought it up...
19:47:26 <alise> ...they'd drop support for all non-OS X OSes (see: Logic Pro)
19:47:29 <pikhq> alise: Well, there's one dev for Flash Linux.
19:47:31 <alise> But it would get a lot better on OS X.
19:47:35 <pikhq> Precisely one dev.
19:47:41 <alise> pikhq: I've seen his blog. He's not very smrt.
19:47:48 <pikhq> Yuh.
19:47:53 <cpressey_> In other news, Microsoft is in talks to acquire the computable reals.
19:47:58 <alise> Or was that the OS X guy?
19:47:59 <alise> I forget.
19:48:01 <alise> No, the Linux guy.
19:48:04 <alise> cpressey_: :D
19:48:04 <pikhq> And from what I gather, you'd need an actual dev *team* to get Flash to not suck.
19:48:25 <alise> http://blogs.adobe.com/penguinswf/ Here's the blog.
19:48:32 <alise> Hmm, it seems to have reverted to default formatting of some description.
19:49:02 <alise> Meanwhile, the first result for "penguin.swf" on Google: http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~hopha/penguin.swf
19:49:33 <pikhq> I wonder if Flash sucks less *running in a Windows VM*.
19:50:00 <Gregor> alise: Actually, Flash sucks in a lot of ways on Windows.
19:50:17 <alise> Gregor: Said like someone who's never used Flash on OS X or Linux.
19:50:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Does Youtube peg a CPU?
19:50:34 <Gregor> I have and frequently do use Flash on both.
19:50:36 <cpressey_> "Coworker Tinic has just published..."
19:50:42 <alise> Flash is especially bad on 64-bit Linux, because *they dropped 64-bit support right after a pre-release that was later found to have serious security flaws*.
19:50:42 <cpressey_> Hello, Coworker!
19:50:44 <Gregor> I've also used the Flash-based soundmanager2 on Windows and Linux.
19:50:48 <alise> They're apparently going to add it back in.
19:50:49 <Gregor> On Windows, timing is a horrible joke.
19:50:53 <alise> So:
19:50:56 <alise> You get to use nspluginwrapper!
19:50:57 <alise> HAHAHAHAHAHA
19:51:08 <alise> Hint: nspluginwrapper *crashes for no reason, constantly*.
19:51:18 <alise> Every time I'm listening to something using YouTube, I never close a tab.
19:51:18 <alise> Why?
19:51:24 <alise> nspluginwrapper doesn't like it when I close tabs.
19:51:29 <alise> It gets ANGRY.
19:51:49 <Gregor> Yes yes, alise angry, alise eat babies.
19:51:58 <Gregor> Anyway, Microsoft has competition for Flash, if you don't recall.
19:51:58 <alise> No, nspluginwrapper angry :P
19:52:04 <Gregor> It's called Silverlight and nobody cares.
19:52:05 <alise> "Competition"
19:52:08 <cpressey_> nspluginwrapper confused and hurt.
19:52:11 <Gregor> But if they could squash Flash, who knows.
19:52:13 <alise> cpressey_: ... :(
19:52:15 <cpressey_> is why it gets angry.
19:52:25 <alise> Now I am feeling sorry for nspluginwrapper
19:52:31 <alise> DAMN YOU CPRESSEY_! DAAMN YOUUUUU--
19:52:35 * alise floats away
19:52:44 <Gregor> cpressey_: Damn you and damn your underscore to hell!
19:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, don't float away!
19:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Think of the helium!
19:53:38 <cpressey_> i would nick myself back to normal but this cpressey freak is still logged in
19:54:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I AM NATURALLY LIGHTER THAN AIR
19:54:11 <alise> cpressey_: /ns ghost cpressey password
19:54:19 <alise> And suddenly the cpressey am disappearate, like ghost.
19:54:49 <Gregor> How do people not know about /nickserv ghost ...
19:55:07 <alise> Gregor: Bad parenting.
19:56:40 -!- cpressey has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:56:44 <Gregor> cpressey_: Darn, you've changed your password since accidentally leaking it to #esoteric on 2010-08-10 :P
19:56:55 <cpressey_> yes.  darn!
19:56:57 <alise> Gregor: I seem to recall he was joking.
19:57:00 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
19:57:15 <alise> Wow, I was -- what was I going...?
19:57:16 <Gregor> alise: Oh, I just grepped the logs for cpressey.*identify :P
19:57:45 <alise> well why would he write identify rather than like
19:57:49 <alise> ns identify parr0t
19:57:52 <pikhq> IT PLAYS VIDEO BETTER INSIDE OF A WINDOWS FUCKING VM.
19:57:54 <cpressey> hey, that means i could kill mz*bot removely too
19:57:59 <cpressey> *remotely
19:58:01 <Gregor> alise: Thought he was in a nickserv query window?
19:58:05 <alise> pikhq: did you try? XD
19:58:07 <pikhq> Aside from one detail: the Win2k network stack sucks.
19:58:10 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
19:58:14 <alise> Gregor: Who makes nickserv query windows?
19:58:19 <alise> pikhq: it's limited
19:58:22 <alise> 10 concurrent connections or sth
19:58:22 <Gregor> alise: cpressey
19:58:26 <alise> there's a patch -- or --
19:58:27 <alise> is that just XP?
19:58:33 <cpressey> alise: Pidgin, that's who
19:58:46 <pikhq> alise: That's crazy.
19:58:48 <Gregor> alise: The real question is who would subject themselves to Pidgin for IRC.
19:59:05 * Phantom_Hoover did for a while.
19:59:10 <cpressey> Gregor: people who are subjected to it anyway, that's who
19:59:22 <alise> "Windows 2000 Professional does have a limit of 10 concurrent inbound
19:59:22 <alise> connections, as is stated in the following Microsoft knowledge base
19:59:22 <alise> article:"
19:59:30 <alise> pikhq: Only inbound.
19:59:41 <alise> I can only find patchse for XP.
19:59:43 <alise> *patches
19:59:45 <pikhq> It uses less CPU *and memory* to have a full Virtual Box VM running for Flash.
20:00:09 <alise> pikhq: Now set up a VNC server on that Windows box, target it at a Flash window, and integrate it into a browser plugin that:
20:00:13 <alise> (1) Contacts the Windows VM
20:00:17 <alise> (2) Tells it to load the Flash file
20:00:25 <alise> (3) Tells it to focus on it with VNC
20:00:30 <alise> (4) Receives the video stream
20:00:34 <pikhq> So fucking perverse.
20:00:37 <alise> (5) Displays it in the area where the Flash should be
20:00:42 <alise> (6) Relays clicks and typing.
20:00:44 <alise> pikhq: ^ DO IT
20:06:41 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:11:19 <cpressey> iow, rewrite nspluginwrapper into winbrowsepluginwrapper
20:11:57 <pikhq> alise: Better still. Use RDP for the display.
20:12:15 <alise> pikhq: Sure thing, get on it.
20:16:32 <alise> Fred Neechy
20:16:36 <alise> "God died"
20:16:51 <alise> Author of the book, "The Fag Physics"
20:19:06 * pikhq wonders what the best version of Windows to run in a VM is
20:19:11 <alise> pikhq: 95
20:19:41 <pikhq> alise: For those programs that'll work on 95? ... Probably, actually.
20:20:02 <alise> pikhq: 3.11
20:20:10 <alise> It Runs In DOSBox!(TM)
20:21:39 <cpressey> pikhq: WinCE
20:21:42 * cpressey runs away
20:23:36 * pikhq grabs a Win95 ISO
20:24:25 <alise> pikhq: If you run into problems I should be able to help. After all, I used it in a VM for several days as my only OS...
20:24:29 <pikhq> Aaaaw. They no longer support Flash on 95.
20:24:38 <alise> pikhq: Meh, oldversion.com
20:25:01 <alise> Macromedia Flash Player 9 (1.3 MB)
20:25:05 <alise> Although I don't know if YT supports 9.
20:25:14 <alise> pikhq: Whatever, just use the latest version that works.
20:25:26 <alise> pikhq: As for the browser, Seamonkey is probably your best bet.
20:25:33 <pikhq> Flash 9 worked on 98...
20:25:38 <alise> pikhq: Or Fx 2.
20:25:39 <pikhq> alise: Opera.
20:25:43 <alise> pikhq: Oh right.
20:25:46 <alise> I keep forgetting Opera exists.
20:25:52 <alise> pikhq: If it works in 98 it'll probably work in 95.
20:25:56 <alise> Find a way to get around the OS check, proceed onwards.
20:26:08 <cpressey> "There are, of course, more possible ABCs for numbers, and this would be a poor hierarchy if it precluded the possibility of adding those. You can add MyFoo between Complex and Real with..."
20:26:30 <alise> cpressey: wat
20:26:44 <cpressey> trying to think of the right emoticon for how that makes me feel
20:27:00 <alise> pikhq: Things that make me RAGE: Adobe refusing to give me a download page for Flash because "Chrome has it built-in!".
20:27:10 <alise> I want a fucking download page! Fuck you, Adobe! You don't know what the fuck I want!
20:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, where did you get that from?
20:30:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Python manual.  "Abstract base classes for numbers."
20:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
20:30:57 <Phantom_Hoover> This is what happens when SE people try to do mathematics.
20:30:58 <cpressey> http://docs.python.org/library/numbers.html
20:31:14 <cpressey> Python is perfectionist about its crap.
20:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> What is an ABC, for heaven's sake?
20:31:35 <cpressey> Abstract Base Class
20:31:48 <cpressey> C++ and Python people seem to have the same weird terminology there
20:32:05 <cpressey> Are there any non-Base abstract classes?
20:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Do explain what an abstract class is and what Base means.
20:32:59 <cpressey> An abstract class is one that doesn't... wait, there are no abstract classes as such in Python.
20:33:05 <cpressey> SEE?
20:33:25 <cpressey> This is what happens when SE people try to do SE.
20:34:15 * Phantom_Hoover tries to think what class sensibly fits between C and R.
20:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It's kind of stupid to think of it as a tower in the first place, but whatever.
20:34:48 <cpressey> "Interesting".  They're a bit more involved than real numbers, but it would be an exaggeration to call them "complex".
20:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I have it!
20:35:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: especially in a language which prides itself on duck typing
20:35:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Reals are a 1-dimensional continuum, complexes a 2D one.
20:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Logically, the intermediate sets would all be fractal continua.
20:36:28 <cpressey> I'm sure that's exactly what the manual author had in mind.
20:37:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's actually what I thought, ha.
20:37:06 <cpressey> In fact 'MyFoo' stands for "my fractally-organized ordinals"
20:37:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it could be helpful if you're computing things to do with infinite-coin Hanoi.
20:37:11 <alise> After your first line.
20:38:03 * alise tries to declip a song with Audacity
20:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the legal moves for n-coin Hanoi approach Sierpinski's triangle as n grows.
20:38:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...awesome.
20:38:47 <alise> ...wait, what?
20:38:51 <alise> How can a number approach a fractal?
20:39:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the graph of the moves.
20:39:04 <alise> Or do you mean, rendering the legal moves in some way?
20:39:05 <alise> Right.
20:39:09 <alise> Awesome.
20:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> So I assume you could use a fractal continuum to simulate moves in n-coin Hanoi as movements through the Sierpinski triangle.
20:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I am now trying to make this work.
20:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> There is evidently something seriously wrong with me.
20:41:59 <cpressey> not enough Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crme in your diet.
20:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently.
20:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how do you uniquely represent a point on the Sierpinski gasket.
20:44:38 <cpressey> "Note however, that since computers store floating-point numbers as approximations it is usually unwise to use them as dictionary keys."
20:44:50 <cpressey> They "store them as approximations".
20:45:01 <cpressey> Where to begin with that?
20:45:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Frothing at the mouth?
20:45:45 <Sgeo> Would "are approximations to what you probably wanted to store" make more sense?
20:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> 'Twould.
20:46:00 <cpressey> Sgeo: Yes.  It would be a good start.
20:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, it would be correct.
20:46:12 <alise> <cpressey> not enough Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crme in your diet.
20:46:13 <alise> crme
20:46:18 <cpressey> alise: POWERSHELL!!!
20:46:22 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how do you uniquely represent a point on the Sierpinski gasket. ;; a complex number
20:46:27 <alise> or, more conveniently, R^2
20:46:33 <alise> say the whole fractal is from (0,0) to (1,1)
20:46:33 <cheater99> alise: are you done being silly
20:46:39 <alise> then pick a point in-between
20:46:43 <alise> to pick further, go smaller
20:46:43 <alise> etc.
20:47:06 <alise> of course if you don't have reals, rationals should suffice at a pinch.
20:47:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: or, something to do with Pascal's triangle for something more "exact" on a computer i guess
20:47:49 <cpressey> or you could represent it using Pascal's triangle mod 2
20:47:49 <alise> The pattern obtained by coloring only the odd numbers in Pascal's triangle closely resembles the fractal called the Sierpinski triangle. This resemblance becomes more and more accurate as more rows are considered; in the limit, as the number of rows approaches infinity, the resulting pattern is the Sierpinski triangle, assuming a fixed perimeter.[6] More generally, numbers could be colored differently according to whether or not they are multiples of 3, 4, e
20:47:49 <alise> tc.; this results in other similar patterns.
20:47:52 <alise> cpressey: snap
20:47:55 <cpressey> alise: snap
20:47:58 <cpressey> indeed
20:48:27 <cpressey> or you can generate it with a CA
20:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's just a consequence of addition mod 2 being the same as XOR.
20:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, same.
20:48:45 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: so?
20:48:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's still relevant! maybe.
20:49:07 <Gregor> I too shall join in this argument!
20:49:10 <Gregor> ... nah, never mind.
20:49:21 <cheater99> cpressey: CA?
20:49:37 <cpressey> or you can mail-order Siepinski gaskets from Gregor's Olde Infinite Objects Shoppe.
20:49:56 <Gregor> GOIOS
20:49:56 <cpressey> cheater99: California.
20:49:59 <Gregor> Rolls right off the tongue
20:50:05 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the Chaos Game?
20:50:25 <cheater99> cpressey: how do you generate a pascal's triangle with a california?
20:50:38 <cpressey> cheater99: very carefully
20:50:43 <alise> cpressey: CA won't produce the infinitely detailed one though
20:50:50 <pikhq> alise: Okay, Flash 9 actually works on Windows 95 without any work.
20:50:54 <alise> pascal's triangle is only sierpinski considering infinite rows
20:50:56 <alise> pikhq: :D
20:50:57 <cpressey> alise: well, neither will Pascal's triangle then?
20:50:58 <cheater99> cpressey: are you being childish today as well
20:50:59 <alise> pikhq: screenshot
20:51:01 <alise> does it do youtube?
20:51:11 <alise> cpressey: well that's why i implied using unspecified trickery to use it
20:51:16 <alise> to identify points
20:51:20 <pikhq> alise: I've not installed it yet; waiting on this '95 torrent.
20:51:43 <alise> pikhq: Ah.
20:51:45 <alise> pikhq: Link me up, dood.
20:51:52 <alise> I had 95 a while back but not now.
20:52:00 <alise> Or I could find it myself :P
20:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I wish you could have a (log 3/log 2)-ple.
20:52:06 <cpressey> alise: I dunno. The CA/PT triangle is infinite from the bottom up, the Hanoi-coins one is infinite from the top down...
20:52:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You can with MATHEMATICS
20:52:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, non-integer sized tuples?
20:52:28 <cpressey> s/triangle/gasket/
20:52:34 <alise> Well, let's see, S^(log 3/log 2) is a function from (log 3/log 2) -> S, in set theory.
20:52:45 <alise> I know of the sets 1 and 2, but what the fuck does log do to a set?
20:52:46 <pikhq> alise: http://www.torrentz.com/faa86c86e912728e0ede9463c0227a5c0c656c1a
20:52:47 <alise> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> O mathematics, you never cease to amaze me.
20:53:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Clearly (log 3/log 2) has dimension (log 3/log 2) but not that cardinality.
20:53:08 <alise> So, figure out what set has that dimension, and you're done.
20:53:19 <cpressey> this is similar to the fractions of a bit stuff
20:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, but raised to the power of AWESOME.
20:54:10 <cpressey> setdefault: awesome dict method with ultracrap name.
20:54:28 <alise> cpressey: I always forget what setdefault does because it has a shitty name. What does it do again?
20:54:58 <cpressey> if k not in d then d[k] = v; return d[k]
20:55:26 <cpressey> er modulo how ; works in that
20:55:48 <cpressey> if there's something there, return it.  if not, insert this and return it.
20:56:07 <alise> cpressey: *d:
20:56:10 <alise> also, ; works fine there
20:56:13 <alise> surprisingly
20:56:14 <alise> oh
20:56:16 <alise> never mind
20:56:27 <alise> cpressey: woot, that shortens vagrant
20:56:36 <alise>    if v not in w:w[v]=choice(W)
20:56:36 <alise>    q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,r(32,126)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:56:54 <cpressey> useful for like: self.defined_in.setdefault(groupname, set()).add(filename)
20:57:48 <cheater99> um
20:57:48 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
20:57:48 <alise> 1916 vagrant.py
20:57:49 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
20:57:49 <alise> 1896 vagrant.py
20:57:52 <alise> Oh yeah.
20:57:55 <cheater99> how do you get a set of fractional dimension
20:57:58 <alise> (note: inflated file size due to verbose debugging AI code)
20:58:08 <cpressey> i wonder what wars took place in those two years
20:58:23 <alise> on another topic, Lebesgue measure is so cool
20:58:44 <olsner> Sgeo: any response from FIS yet?
20:58:56 <alise> erm, *Hausdorff
20:59:00 <alise> mixed up which one is the fractal one >__>
20:59:07 <alise> olsner: FIS -- the bancstar people?
20:59:17 <alise> "For example, the Cantor set (a zero-dimensional topological space) is a union of two copies of itself, each copy shrunk by a factor 1/3; this fact can be used to prove that its Hausdorff dimension is ln2 / ln3"
20:59:18 <olsner> alise: yes... well, potentially at least
20:59:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ^
20:59:19 <alise> close!
20:59:28 <alise> "The Sierpinski triangle is a union of three copies of itself, each copy shrunk by a factor of 1/2; this yields a Hausdorff dimension of ln3 / ln2"
20:59:30 <alise> oh right
20:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's the point.
20:59:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: then, a (ln3/ln2)-ple of S-es is a function from the Sierpinski set to S.
21:00:06 <alise> erm
21:00:09 <alise> *from a member of the Sierpinski set
21:00:11 <alise> to be clearer
21:00:12 <alise> *to a member of S
21:00:15 <pikhq> Whoa. Win95 actually supports Unicode. *Barely*.
21:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought Hausdorff dimension didn't work like that...
21:00:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: YOU DON'T WORK LIKE THAT
21:00:48 <olsner> pikhq: don't you have to install some unicode support patch from ms first?
21:01:04 <alise> pikhq: I hope that Win95 is old enough to not be OSR2.5.
21:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the Hausdorff dimension isn't the cardinality.
21:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> |R^2| /= 2
21:01:19 <pikhq> alise: It's the release version.
21:01:25 <alise> pikhq: OSR2.5 replaced Windows Explorer with Internet "I Can't Believe It's Not Windows Explorer" Explorer.
21:01:34 <alise> Thus dramatically steepening the decline of Windows.
21:01:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I know that!
21:01:41 <pikhq> olsner: Installing unicows.dll made it actually support Unicode as well as NT versions.
21:01:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But you have to cheat somehow.
21:01:47 <alise> So cheat like this!
21:01:53 <olsner> if windows explorer == internet explorer, then certainly windows == internet!
21:02:23 <pikhq> alise: This one doesn't have IE at all.
21:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but I'm trying to work out what R^(log 3/log 2) is /so that I can identify a point on the Sierpinski set uniquely*.
21:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> */
21:02:32 <cpressey> olsner: you have COM and .NET, so... YES
21:02:35 <Gregor> Uni-Cows!
21:02:42 <alise> com.net
21:02:54 <alise> The best way to package .NET applications inside COM executable files!
21:02:55 <pikhq> Gregor: UNICOde for Windows Systems
21:03:09 <cpressey> alise: dude.
21:03:12 <Gregor> `addquote <olsner> if windows explorer == internet explorer, then certainly windows == internet!
21:03:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: R^(log 3/log 2) is a function from a set with cardinality log 3/log 2 to the raels!
21:03:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF UNGRATEFUL BÂTARD
21:03:41 <alise> ungrapeful
21:03:43 <olsner> oh my, I'm having quotes added
21:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but how does one have a set with non-integral cardinality (indeed, non-natural cardinality).
21:03:48 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
21:03:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: CLEVERLY
21:03:54 <HackEgo> 237|<olsner> if windows explorer == internet explorer, then certainly windows == internet!
21:04:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Clearly ∈ should result in a real, representing how-much-in the value is.
21:04:28 <Sgeo> olsner, I haven't emailed them yet
21:05:05 <alise> {1[1/2], 2[1/2]} is a set with cardinality 1, and both 1 ∈ S and 2 ∈ S = 1/2.
21:05:08 <alise> Q.E.D.
21:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that is strangely awesome.
21:05:23 <alise> {1[3]} = {1,1,1}, of course.
21:05:28 <alise> So 1 ∈ S = 3.
21:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea if it makes sense, but it is awesome nontheless.
21:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> *nonetheless
21:06:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: {{}[Ω]}, where Ω = Chaitin's constant.
21:06:35 <alise> MWAHAHAHAHA
21:07:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Now, allow me to introduce you to NEGATIVE CARDINALITIES!" gargled the mad scientist, before vomiting profusely.
21:07:21 <alise> ^ Now a Lyttle Lytton entry!
21:07:26 <pikhq> Hmm. I've got an old game here that'd be nice to play. Maybe it'll run nicely in Win95.
21:07:34 <cpressey> those are just all those sets pointing in the other direction
21:07:59 <cpressey> pikhq: thank you for saying "I've got" and not just "I've"
21:08:19 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, why do you thank him for this
21:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
21:08:22 <pikhq> cpressey: Odd as it is, it *is* idiomatic in General American.
21:08:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: because it bugs me.
21:08:43 <alise> Generalised Americanism
21:08:49 <alise> pikhq: Everything runs nicely in Win95 :P
21:08:57 <Gregor> I've a bone to pick with anybody who argues that "I've got" is incorrect.
21:08:58 <alise> Are you gonna do it in VirtualBox or QEMU or what?
21:09:00 <cpressey> pikhq: I only ever hear it on the internet, somehow.
21:09:31 <cpressey> Gregor: it makes you sound like you should be telling me about how a storm's a-comin', as you can feel it in your knees.
21:09:41 <alise> :D
21:10:13 <pikhq> alise: Virtaul Box.
21:10:26 <alise> VIRTAUL BOX
21:10:32 <alise> Virtaul is an awesome word; we must now define it.
21:10:39 <pikhq> The Chinese knockoff. :D
21:10:41 <Gregor> cpressey: Y'all ain't one to be mockin' American colloquialism.
21:10:58 <Gregor> cpressey: Also, I feel it in my ANKLES.
21:11:02 <Gregor> cpressey: Get it right.
21:11:26 <Gregor> cpressey: ALSO, it doesn't matter what Mr. Ivory Tower thinks it sounds like, because English is defined by its speakers, and its speakers overwhelmingly say "i've got"
21:11:40 <alise> "I feels it in my ANKLES, I tells ya! Mah ANKLES! Geddit RIGHT, for chrissakes, man!"
21:11:47 <alise> <Gregor> cpressey: ALSO, it doesn't matter what Mr. Ivory Tower thinks it sounds like, because English is defined by its speakers, and its speakers overwhelmingly say "i've got"
21:11:53 <alise> Most pointless pushing of descriptivism ever?
21:12:16 <Gregor> I WILL PUSH MY DESCRIPTIVIST AGENDA 'TIL THE END OF TIM
21:12:17 <Gregor> ...
21:12:19 <alise> pikhq: I shall join you, O 95 one.
21:12:21 <Gregor> That was a typo, but I'm leaving it.
21:12:32 <alise> Gregor: NO IT WASN'T IT'S LINGUISTIC INNOVATION
21:12:45 <alise> pikhq: I will now scare you: When Windows 95 was released, I was 48 hours old.
21:12:55 <Gregor> alise: "Every typo is linguistic innovation" is not descriptivism.
21:13:03 <alise> Gregor: Neither are jokes!
21:13:10 <Gregor> alise: NEITHER
21:13:11 <Gregor> alise: IS
21:13:12 <Gregor> alise: YOUR
21:13:13 <Gregor> alise: MOM
21:13:16 <alise> FACE
21:13:18 <alise> Momface
21:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, wait, I say "I've" rather than "I've got" quite frequently.
21:14:17 <alise> OW
21:14:21 <alise> I JUST BASHED OW
21:14:39 <Gregor> That's it.
21:14:42 <alise> pikhq: Dammit, feel old!
21:14:45 <Gregor> From now on I'm using "I've have"
21:14:46 * pikhq uses ddrescue on this horribly beaten up Sim City 3000 disc
21:14:49 <pikhq> alise: I AM OLD
21:15:02 <alise> pikhq: HOW OLD ARE YOU AGAIN I'VE FORGOTTEN
21:15:07 <pikhq> alise: 20
21:15:20 <Gregor> alise: Younger than me, older than you X-P
21:15:23 <alise> pikhq: HOLY FUCKING SHIT SGEO IS ONE YEAR OLDER THAN YOU
21:15:27 <alise> HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE
21:15:31 <pikhq> alise: AND WINDOWS 95 WAS NOT THE FIRST VERSION THAT I USED
21:15:40 <Gregor> OK, let's rank everyone by age:
21:15:46 <alise> - Gregor (oldest)
21:15:51 <alise> (at 45)
21:16:00 <Gregor> alise < pikhq < Sgeo < Gregor < ais < cpressey
21:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> No bloody way.
21:16:02 <Gregor> Approx.
21:16:11 <alise> Gregor: Eh? How old are you?
21:16:18 <Gregor> alise: Like you said, 45.
21:16:22 <Gregor> But ais is at LEAST 60.
21:16:27 <Gregor> And cpressey is older than time itself.
21:16:29 <alise> Gregor: No butrly :P
21:16:30 <Gregor> (Being God)
21:16:37 <pikhq> And oerjan is older than cpressey.
21:16:44 <alise> "Alex Smith was born on 15 April 1987"
21:16:54 <alise> So he's, like, 22-23
21:17:02 <Gregor> I am the age that a person is if he's a third year graduate student who did all schooling by the canonical years.
21:17:02 <alise> Isn't Gregor 24?
21:17:05 <alise> I distinctly recall 24.
21:17:07 <Gregor> Oh shoot, ais is younger than me :P
21:17:10 <alise> LAWL
21:17:16 <alise> And you climb further up the ranks of senility.
21:17:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise < pikhq < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:17:37 <alise> asiekierka comes before me
21:17:40 <alise> he's, like, 3
21:18:02 <Gregor> Vorpal must be roughly in the Sgeo-to-Gregor range, I'd guess.
21:18:09 <alise> there was another guy my age iirc
21:18:11 <alise> 13 or so
21:18:20 <alise> Gregor: vorpal turned 20 a little bit ago iirc
21:18:27 <alise> maybe 21
21:18:29 <Gregor> Guhhhh
21:18:31 <alise> so he's actually around the same age as pikhq at the least
21:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal was 20 in May or June IIRC.
21:18:40 <alise> Gregor: dude, he only acts like he's old :P
21:18:48 <alise> he knows very little!
21:18:50 <Gregor> Lesse, ...
21:18:55 <alise> Rugxlo
21:18:57 <alise> has to be like 45835945
21:19:01 <alise> because he hates everything modern
21:19:08 <alise> or however the fuck you spell it name :P
21:19:11 <alise> impomatic
21:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:19:15 <Gregor> jix and bsmntbombdood are both in the pre-pikhq-to-ais range ish?
21:19:16 <alise> I peg as being cpressey's age or older
21:19:23 <alise> bsmnt was like 16 in 2008
21:19:31 <alise> so he'd be around 18 now
21:19:39 <alise> jix, no clue, he's before my time
21:19:42 <Gregor> SO I was about right thanks to the "pre"
21:19:44 <alise> impomatic is 40-something i think
21:19:47 <alise> so actually older than oerjan
21:19:57 <Gregor> (If such a thing is possible!)
21:20:13 <Gregor> HackEgo < EgoBot < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:20:13 <alise> clog is only 7
21:20:17 <alise> but it doesn't talk much
21:20:21 <Gregor> HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:20:36 <alise> nooga is 20s iirc
21:20:37 <Gregor> If we had a bot that was older than an actual channel member, that would be pretty epic.
21:20:42 <alise> Gregor: :D
21:20:47 <pikhq> Oh *wow*. The Win95 installer uses Windows 3.11 widgets.
21:20:55 <alise> Gregor: it's offensive to group people's names with vorpal
21:20:57 <alise> use = or something
21:20:57 <Gregor> pikhq: Heeeey, I remember that!
21:20:57 <alise> pikhq: yeah :D
21:21:11 <Gregor> pikhq: In the original disk-based Win95 release, you could make it use progman instead of explorer.
21:21:17 <Gregor> pikhq: I think they removed that from later releases.
21:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Vorpal, please rank yourselves in order of age.
21:21:50 <Gregor> Who else actually talks ...
21:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops, I forgot Sgeo in that list.
21:22:28 <cpressey> olsnet?
21:22:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Windows XP SP2 was the last version of Windows to have progman.
21:22:34 <Gregor> cheater99: I assume by your "99" that your birth-year is 1999, making you 10 or 11.
21:22:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Seriously.
21:22:36 * cpressey shakes own head
21:22:41 <cpressey> olsner
21:22:52 <cheater99> my birth year is 2099.
21:22:53 <Gregor> pikhq: Nononono, the Win95 install let you set progman to be your default shell, instead of explorer.
21:22:55 <cheater99> i am from the future.
21:22:56 <Gregor> pikhq: In the installer.
21:22:59 <cheater99> AND from the internet.
21:23:00 <alise> Deewiant is
21:23:01 <pikhq> Gregor: That's amazing.
21:23:01 <alise> 24 i think
21:23:04 <alise> maybe 25 now
21:23:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Perverse, but amazing.
21:23:16 <Gregor> Well that makes cheater99 the youngest. At an incredibly negative -89 or so.
21:23:16 <olsner> cpressey?
21:23:18 <alise> WE NEED A BIG BIRTHDAYS PAGE ^_____________________^
21:23:27 <alise> olsner: 24, amirite?
21:23:34 <cpressey> olsner: how old are you?  SOME KIND OF CHART IS BEING ASSEMBLED
21:23:35 <alise> olsner: or 18
21:23:37 <alise> pick one
21:23:39 <alise> no other age is permitted
21:23:39 <pikhq> 19900323
21:23:42 <olsner> alise: 3
21:23:50 <alise> <pikhq> 19900323
21:23:54 <alise> Why would you use such a format...
21:23:57 <Gregor> olsner is younger than EgoBot!
21:24:00 <alise> olsner: THAT IS NOT 24 OR 18
21:24:02 <alise> however
21:24:04 <alise> we will list youa s that
21:24:05 <alise> *as that
21:24:07 <Gregor> Also, he was on this channel before he was born.
21:24:12 <olsner> alise: no, I'm 24 actually, how the hell did you know?
21:24:15 <alise> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:24:25 <Gregor> alise: HackEgo is less than three.
21:24:28 <alise> olsner: probably you said it at one point, or it was on your blog, or i just deducted it
21:24:29 <Gregor> alise: Alternatively, HackEgo is <3
21:24:31 <alise> Gregor: NO IT'S NOT
21:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you forgot Sgeo again.
21:24:41 <alise> olsner: I am *scarily* accurate at these things
21:24:43 <olsner> excellent deduction then
21:24:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I copied cpressey
21:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, who copied me.
21:25:12 <alise> pikhq: Are you seeding that torrent :|
21:25:14 <alise> YOU'D BETTERBE
21:25:29 <alise> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan < Phantom_Hoover
21:25:46 <alise> I’m called Matti Niemenmaa, and am also known as Deewiant in some online circles. I’m male, about a score of years old, and live in Finland.
21:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I am apparently older than myself.
21:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
21:25:52 <alise> 1 score = 20
21:26:02 <alise> so Deewiant's actually in the pikhq/Vorpal/Sgeo quadrant
21:26:05 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
21:26:28 <cpressey> i would not have guessed this ordering
21:26:36 <alise> pikhq: GOOD! Because I never seed >_>
21:26:38 <olsner> so this chart is seriously going to list me as 3 years old?
21:26:41 <alise> olsner: yes.
21:26:46 <alise> olsner: you have nobody to blame but yourself.
21:26:49 <olsner> aight
21:26:57 <olsner> as long as I know
21:27:10 <alise> olsner: adjust your birthdate on your resume
21:27:15 <olsner> my resume?
21:27:19 <olsner> I have a resume?
21:27:26 <alise> make one and adjust the birthdate on it
21:27:44 <alise> first 3-year-old with a resume ever!
21:27:48 <alise> child prodigy!
21:28:14 <olsner> child prodigy should be a group of 3-year-old kids doing prodigy songs
21:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, I'm on it twice!
21:28:19 <alise> :D
21:28:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:28:31 <alise> All together now! SMACK MY BITCH UP
21:28:33 <pikhq> alise: I set a default goal of a 2.0 ratio.
21:28:38 <alise> , said the 3 year olds.
21:29:07 <olsner> 20 classical Prodigy hits, performed in the rising sun kindergarten in south sussex
21:29:27 <alise> you're Swedish -- why do you say Sussex :|
21:30:11 <olsner> well, sometimes I just say stuff
21:30:25 <olsner> I'm sorry but that's just the way I do it
21:30:48 <olsner> "det är lite så jag jobbar", as we would say in swedish
21:31:10 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:33:31 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_News
21:33:34 <alise> dear god.
21:33:47 <alise> olsner: "That is light for the jagged job-searcher", I presume
21:34:09 <olsner> alise: no, not even close
21:34:52 <pikhq> That are lite for jag jobber.
21:35:06 <olsner> more like "that's kind of the way I work" (work as in doing a job, not work as in function)
21:35:13 <alise> olsner: SHUT UP
21:35:19 <alise> I prefer mine
21:35:23 <olsner> I DON'T
21:35:42 <olsner> well, bathtime anyway, see you some other time
21:36:05 <alise> yay it's done
21:36:10 <alise> olsner: three year old's bathtime
21:36:15 <alise> don't forget the ducky!
21:36:20 * olsner has no ducky
21:36:47 <olsner> D':
21:36:51 <alise> :(
21:36:54 * alise gives olsner a ducky
21:36:56 <alise> *quack*
21:36:57 <alise> :)
21:36:58 <olsner> yay! :D
21:37:02 <alise> [Media arrives.]
21:37:05 <olsner> quacky quacky ducky ducky
21:37:05 -!- alise has changed nick to Media.
21:37:11 <Media> alise: What do you have to say for yourself, PAEDOPHILE?
21:37:13 -!- Media has changed nick to alise.
21:37:19 <alise> Media: I-- what? I was just giving him a ducky--
21:37:20 -!- alise has changed nick to Media.
21:37:28 <Media> A "ducky" -- is this not a VILE SEXUAL PERVERSION?
21:37:29 -!- Media has changed nick to alise.
21:37:30 <alise> ...
21:37:32 -!- alise has changed nick to Media.
21:37:33 <olsner> alise is like 2.5a old anyway, I'm older
21:37:35 <Media> You are hereby sentenced to DEATH
21:38:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Paedofinder_Gene.
21:38:08 <Paedofinder_Gene> DAMMIT
21:38:10 <olsner> but I'm certain some legislations allow minors to be sentenced as paedophiles even when molesting older kids
21:38:14 <Media> Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUkt59vY1Q
21:38:45 -!- Paedofinder_Gene has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:38:51 <olsner> it's just the kind of legal area where stupid things like that would be going on (except, of course, copyright law)
21:38:53 <pikhq> Well, it "reboots to install more files" and then... Locks up.
21:38:55 <Gregor> ...
21:38:59 <olsner> except/also
21:39:14 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:40:06 <pikhq> So, whaddya think. Qemu?
21:40:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Piratefinder_Gen.
21:40:41 <Piratefinder_Gen> DAMMIT
21:40:49 -!- Piratefinder_Gen has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:40:57 <Media> pikhq: I can probably fix it.
21:40:58 <Media> With my magic.
21:41:01 <Media> I have got it working in VB before.
21:41:03 <Media> That's what I used.
21:41:05 -!- Media has changed nick to alise.
21:41:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you anticipated my reference before I noticed.
21:41:49 -!- jcp has joined.
21:41:51 <Gregor> pikhq: bochs! 8-D
21:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you made the reference about a week ago.
21:42:01 <alise> pikhq: Firstly: How much RAM you got?
21:42:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >_>
21:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I know you too well.
21:42:45 <Gregor> He knows you ...
21:42:47 * Phantom_Hoover → Blackadder
21:42:48 <Gregor> INTIMATELY
21:43:23 <pikhq> alise: I assigned it 512M.
21:44:55 <alise> pikhq: Try 384.
21:44:58 <alise> pikhq: HD size?
21:45:11 <Gregor> 1TB
21:45:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:45:20 <pikhq> alise: Just shy of 2GiB.
21:45:24 <alise> "Divided into 2 GB partitions!"
21:45:32 <alise> All 512 of them.
21:45:41 <alise> A: to ITWASTHEBESTOFTI:
21:45:44 <Gregor> alise: Assigned drive names of C-Z...err
21:46:10 -!- wareya has joined.
21:46:20 <alise> pikhq: Try starting again and tell me what you do at each step. I'm surprised -- maybe it is a problem with the CD.
21:46:34 <Gregor> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < wareya < (pikhq, Vorpal) < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan < Phantom_Hoover
21:46:34 <pikhq> Dang, this is time-consuming when you forget to start kqemu...
21:46:35 <Gregor> ^^^ Guess
21:46:43 <alise> pikhq: Is the CD attached to the VM still?
21:46:45 <Gregor> pikhq: kqemu ... ???
21:46:47 <Gregor> pikhq: KVM
21:46:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Erm, that.
21:46:59 <alise> KVM: Because FUCK EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE VIRTUALISATION
21:47:20 <Gregor> alise: At this point, your CPU has to be pretty darn olde not to have it ...
21:47:23 <pikhq> alise: It goes all the way through the steps on the booted-from-CD part of the install, reboots to boot off of the HD, and halts.
21:47:26 <alise> Gregor: Nope.
21:47:34 <alise> Gregor: All low-end Intel models lack it.
21:47:40 <alise> At least before i3 started becoming common on laptops, I guess.
21:48:02 <Gregor> alise: People with low-end processors are low-end people.
21:48:03 <alise> Gregor: For instance, any Core 2 laptop with a battery life over three minutes doesn't have VT-x.
21:48:28 <alise> I'm using a 1.33 GHz Core 2 Duo processor and it's wonderful.
21:48:30 <alise> But no VT-x.
21:48:32 <Gregor> alise: And yet, my '08 MacBook does.
21:48:40 <pikhq> Gregor: God, Bochs would be practical for this.
21:48:43 <alise> Gregor: ORITE because you *love* Apple
21:49:26 <alise> pikhq: I'm trying the CD in VB now.
21:49:38 <alise> Swear this was graphical for me.
21:49:42 <alise> (last time)
21:49:53 <Gregor> SWEAR IT!
21:50:17 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, it just has a very small non-graphical bit. Like all of Windows installs.
21:50:29 <alise> I don't recall it, but sure :P
21:50:34 <alise> Wow, Audacity's "Fix Clip" tool is ... magical.
21:50:45 <alise> It has made the awesome album well-produced!
21:50:49 <alise> From a square to actual wavse.
21:50:52 <alise> *waves.
21:51:19 <Gregor> alise: ...?
21:51:33 <alise> Gregor: Are you aware of what "audio" is?
21:52:09 <Gregor> alise: No. But I am aware of the concept of waves moving through physical matter, and have been told that audio is somehow related to that. Describe it to me.
21:52:16 <alise> pikhq: What installation method did you choose in VB?
21:52:17 <alise> Gregor: No.
21:52:57 <pikhq> alise: Custom?
21:53:11 <alise> pikhq: I diagnose your only diagnosis.
21:54:10 <alise> Issue with Fix Clip: when a part of the track isn't clipped, but it leads into a louder, clipped section, the onset is kinda subdued unlike before.
21:56:05 <alise> pikhq: Windows 95 is so awesome.
21:58:25 <alise> pikhq: SHOULD I INSTALL MICROSOFT MAIL AND FAX OPMG
22:02:58 <pikhq> Hmm. It seems that Audacity handles Replay Gain.
22:03:00 <pikhq> Which is awesome.
22:05:32 <alise> I wonder how Clip Fix actually works.
22:05:52 <alise> pikhq: The problems with Audacity are otherwise, like having the world's worst UI or the world's crappiest feature set.
22:07:00 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/Scholar/ ITT: Organised breaking of copyright for science!
22:08:00 <alise> pikhq: Mail and Fax or not?!
22:08:27 <pikhq> alise: Nein
22:08:37 <alise> LOSER
22:08:40 * alise enables all accessories
22:08:55 <pikhq> alise: The only optional thing I installed was defrag.
22:09:08 <alise> YOU'RE LAME
22:10:07 <alise> WTF NO UK KEYBOARD LAYOUT
22:10:07 <alise> WHY
22:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Am I still at the end of the age list
22:10:34 <pikhq> Hmm. Should I try and *clean* this here horribly abused disc, or should I just torrent one?
22:10:36 <alise> oh wait
22:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
22:10:38 <alise> "British"
22:10:39 <alise> pikhq: Torrent.
22:10:43 <alise> It's like ddrescue but more reliable.
22:11:18 <alise> pikhq: I've actually downloaded my own torrent for a game before after losing my disc.
22:11:31 <alise> pikhq: The Linus Torvalds backup system: put it on the Internet for everyone else.
22:12:39 <alise> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3503268/Worms_Armageddon_(Team17__1998__Sold-Out_version)
22:12:40 <alise> Here it is!
22:13:57 <pikhq> "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..." \o/
22:13:57 <myndzi>                                                         |
22:13:57 <myndzi>                                                        /`\
22:15:10 <pikhq> IT FUCKING CRASHED
22:15:14 <pikhq> IT FUCKING CRASHED QEMU
22:15:58 <alise> pikhq: VIRTUALBOX BITCH
22:16:11 <alise> IT'S WHAT PLANTS CRAVE
22:16:57 <alise> pikhq: Windows Setup, part two, now running in VirtualBox.
22:17:01 <alise> Askin' for a username and shit.
22:17:08 <alise> I'm Elliott, bitch.
22:17:15 <alise> NO PASSWORD OHHH
22:17:19 <alise> Scannin' hardware 'n shit
22:17:22 <alise> pikhq: It works perfectly yo.
22:17:52 <cheater99> man
22:17:55 <cheater99> this perfume is crazy
22:17:58 * cheater99 will have to buy it
22:18:47 <pikhq> alise: Have you seen "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..." ?
22:18:56 <alise> pikhq: Yes.
22:19:03 <pikhq> Fuuuck.
22:19:07 <alise> It is now asking me to insert my CD-ROM, after having created an account and scanning hardware.
22:19:33 <alise> pikhq: Create VM, 384 megs of ram, 2 gig HD, start it, insert CD, go through the install, let all the default hardware settings be taken, yes you have network and sound hardware, take out the CD, reboot.
22:19:36 <alise> Insert CD when prompted.
22:19:43 <alise> Use VirtualBox 3.1.6.
22:20:46 <alise> Now it 'plains about not having files on the CD.
22:21:47 * alise tries again
22:24:06 <alise> HAHA IT WORKS NOW
22:24:17 <alise> pikhq: Reboot *with* the cd but press f12; select the hard disk to boot from.
22:24:26 <alise> Follow the above instructions and it should work perfectly, unless you're crazy.
22:24:31 <alise> Or your computer is crazy.
22:25:55 <alise> Add Printer Wizard: You must install a printer before you can print from Windows. This wizard will help you install your printer.
22:26:03 <alise> Printer printer printer printer printer? Printer! Printer printer printer, printer; printer.
22:26:47 <pikhq> Windows protection error. You need to restart your computer.
22:26:55 <alise> pikhq: Hmph. What?
22:27:03 <alise> pikhq: Do you have virtualisation turned on in VirtualBox?
22:27:05 <alise> 'Cuz I don't.
22:27:22 <pikhq> I rebooted and selected normal mode, and now have a login prompt.
22:27:33 <pikhq> VICTORY
22:27:34 <alise> yay
22:27:39 <alise> I have a desktop
22:27:42 <alise> I WIN
22:28:06 <alise> pikhq: By the way, the first -- no, the *very* first -- thing to do is to install VBEMP.
22:28:12 <alise> You have *no idea* how slow and how ugly the VGA driver is.
22:28:22 <alise> I CAN SEE THE INDIVIDUAL CONTROL PANEL ICONS DRAW ONE BY ONE.
22:28:37 <alise> "Opening the start menu" takes quantifiable time!
22:28:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: say something
22:28:47 <cheater99> sounds like my old computer
22:28:57 * alise sets up interwebs
22:31:34 <alise> pikhq: It is possible that this disc does not have networking stuff on it.
22:31:53 <pikhq> alise: Use D:/, not X:/
22:31:56 <cheater99> do you have win 95 se with Plus! ?
22:32:12 <alise> pikhq: Didn't work for me, but I'll try again.
22:32:17 <alise> cheater99: no, that's rubbish. wait, since when is there an se?
22:32:37 <cheater99> it wasn't "se" but everyone knows it's the "se"
22:32:39 <cheater99> it's just OSR B
22:32:42 <alise> yes
22:32:44 <alise> it ruins it
22:32:48 <alise> it makes explorer into ie explorer
22:32:49 <alise> for the first time
22:32:56 <cheater99> and adds proper usb
22:32:59 <alise> replacing a wonderfully light and usable interface with bullshit
22:33:01 <cheater99> and other tings
22:33:02 <alise> cheater99: there are third-party drivers
22:33:11 <cheater99> ok
22:33:11 <alise> OSR B is just 98 pretending to be the best Windows ever
22:33:25 <cheater99> 98 in 96.
22:33:35 <alise> yes, crap a whole two years early
22:33:37 <cheater99> YOU HAVE JUST COLLAPSED THE TIME CONTINUUM.
22:33:43 <alise> lucky, aren't we?
22:33:52 <cheater99> mayyybe
22:33:56 <alise> pikhq: this cd seems to suck
22:33:59 <alise> it's crashing virtualbox
22:34:03 <alise> now
22:34:10 <alise> or maybe that's the failed copy
22:34:20 <pikhq> It does seem to suck.
22:34:27 <alise> pikhq: i could find the one i used way back
22:34:32 <pikhq> alise: Do so.
22:34:32 <alise> that one worked perfectly
22:34:38 <cpressey> HALT at 0xfe0fc1ac: Printer Wizard is casting Bad Magic
22:35:34 <alise> pikhq: Hmph, where on earth is the CD version...
22:35:37 <alise> All this floppy crap!
22:35:57 <Gregor> http://filmcow.com/binotheelephant.html ONE THOUSAND TIMES YES FOREVER
22:36:01 <alise> The Windows 9x Project (95 OSR2.5, 98, 98SE, and ME)
22:36:02 <alise> DO NOT WANT
22:36:16 <cpressey> HALT at 0c3ecd00d: Workgroup Dragon has eaten Printer Wizard
22:36:27 <pikhq> alise: It does indeed suck.
22:36:36 <alise> Gregor: WHAT IS THIS
22:36:51 <Gregor> alise: By the guy who made Charlie the Unicorn.
22:36:54 <Gregor> Now we have
22:36:54 <Gregor> BINO
22:36:59 <Gregor> THE ELEPHANT
22:37:15 <alise> "Yes, Meredith, I've sent an elephant to Hell, it's science stuff you wouldn't understand."
22:37:17 <alise> ...funnier said
22:38:10 <alise> "Pooping! I've been poo-ping! A looo~t." ...this thing is going to be all quotes, isn't it?
22:38:22 <Gregor> alise: Mostly :P
22:38:24 <Gregor> alise: But not entirely.
22:38:52 <alise> "I think you've found the CHAMBER OF MISERY!" "Oh, good, how do I get in it."
22:41:50 <alise> Gregor: Please tell me there will be a sequel.
22:42:00 <Gregor> Probably. No guarantees, I am not the Film Cow.
22:42:04 <alise> Hey, a Vanilla the Plastic Snowman reference!
22:42:08 <alise> You don't see that every day.
22:42:24 <Gregor> But Llamas with Hats got sequels, and it's not as funny.
22:42:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are doing science SO HARD right now. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:43:02 -!- alise has set topic: The flower... is crawling... up my urethra... | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:43:07 <alise> Clearly the more relevant quote for this channel.
22:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Quote‽
22:43:24 <Gregor> Needs more screamycaps.
22:43:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://filmcow.com/binotheelephant.html
22:43:35 <alise> Gregor: But he said it so resignedly!
22:43:49 <alise> pikhq: using D: helps not, it still can't finderate the filia.
22:44:05 -!- Gregor has set topic: The flower ... is climbing ... ... UP MY URETHRAAAAAAAA ... and singing! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:44:13 <alise> Gregor: "Bino's journey into hell begins!"
22:44:15 <alise> Begins
22:44:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: The flower ... is crawling ... ... UP MY URETHRAAAAAAAA ... and singing! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:44:54 <alise> What... did you change?
22:45:08 <Gregor> s/climbing/crawling/
22:45:32 <alise> pikhq: I can't find the fuzucking torrentsimo!
22:45:48 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/ad773aa9319cded389aff39b6989df7547af0eeb Inexplicable CD contents
22:46:36 <alise> pikhq:
22:46:37 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/e77df637b08d16b8a346804780f05299dd034400
22:46:38 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/8deb7a5f6e0b48ba68199ac699b13e7646c20f35
22:46:39 <alise> Pick one.
22:51:43 <Gregor> Science, Bino. Speculative science!
22:54:45 <alise> "Either way, she's a spanking good witch" --DMM on Hermione Granger, Irregular Webcomic! cast list, making everyone feel vaguely uncomfortable
22:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> DMM: the last person you'd expect to make you feel uncomfortable.
22:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Except for in that exact "have a gay old time" sense that only the profoundly non-discomforting can achieve.
23:04:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, did anyone else look at his raytracing work?
23:05:06 * pikhq comes to the conclusion that per-app WINE prefixes is the *only* way to use WINE.
23:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> WINE prefixes?
23:05:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Where it stores the C drive, WINE configuration, and registry.
23:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
23:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Why should it be per-app?
23:06:33 <pikhq> Because sometimes you need to do funky stuff to get a program running.
23:06:44 <pikhq> And Windows programs are notorious for interfering with each other.
23:07:43 <pikhq> Oh, and Windows programs are effectively impossible to fully install.
23:08:09 <pikhq> But, if each Windows program is in its own self-contained world, it's just a matter of rm
23:09:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Effectively impossible to fully uninstall?
23:10:16 <cpressey> HALT at 0x98a1d1ed: Dungeon Update is missing DLLs and Manacles
23:12:36 <alise> brb
23:18:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Windows programs spew shit everywhere.
23:18:49 <pikhq> EVERYWHERE.
23:21:09 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:22:30 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:24:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I still want to know how an arbitrary point on the Sierpiński Gasket can be identified.
23:26:07 <Gregor> Magic.
23:26:11 <Gregor> And kittens.
23:30:10 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: the limit of a series of Hanoi coin flips
23:30:17 <cpressey> or however that works
23:30:29 <cpressey> I realize this is circular for your goal!  Ha!
23:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi#Graphical_representation
23:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Look upon the graph, ye mighty, and despair.
23:31:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: oh -- I thought it was the random thing you were doing
23:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea whatsoever how this might be accomplished
23:32:45 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I doubt there is a way to identify a point in an infinitely detailed structure without giving an infinite "path"
23:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, define "infinitely detailed"?
23:33:04 <cpressey> either up, or down, depending on how you build the gasket, as we discussed (sort of)
23:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Self similar?
23:33:10 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: it's a fractal
23:33:19 <cpressey> There is no point at which you can't zoom in
23:33:37 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case, I think identification might be easy enough with an infinite stream of trits.
23:33:49 <cpressey> Is pretty much what I just said.
23:34:02 <cpressey> In fact, could be bits, from what I understand
23:34:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No, has to be trits, since the repeating unit is repeated 3 times.
23:34:42 <cpressey> If you start at one of the corners, then flip a coin, then move to halfway between the corner you were just on, and one of the other two corners (becomes the new "corner you're on"), you approach the gasket.
23:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> However, infinity is easily worked around.
23:34:56 <cpressey> I read this in a magazine once.
23:35:02 <cpressey> So it must be true.
23:35:07 <cpressey> And I must be remembering it correctly.
23:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> That's the Chaos Game.
23:35:12 <cpressey> Right.
23:35:35 <cpressey> So you only need bits -- the series of flips in an infinite Chaos game -- to identify a point.
23:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> No, because the random selection is of a corner
23:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> So you need 3 choices.
23:36:04 <cpressey> Isn't it one of the corners you're not currently on?
23:36:15 <cpressey> I could easily be misremembering that part.
23:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you are.
23:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> My algorithm was more or less "number each subtriangle, select the one corresponding to the current trit, lather, rinse, repeat."
23:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is more or less the floating-point of Sierpiński representation.
23:42:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you do realise an infinite stream of bits = an infinite stream of trits, right?
23:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes, but trits are nicer for Sierpiński.
23:43:05 <Slereah> s/trit/tit
23:43:30 <alise> i was gonna make that joke, also you forgot the closing /
23:43:33 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:43:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ofc R^2 has all the points inside, it just has a lot of points outside too :)
23:44:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, bits are nicer for R^2.
23:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So taking C to be pairs of reals, quarter-imaginary is the logical equivalent of binary.
23:45:04 <alise> Slereah: Phantom_Hoover wouldn't know about the tit positioning of the sierpinski triangle anyway, being a gay vampire and all
23:45:45 <alise> fungot never lies
23:45:46 <fungot> alise: or use integer arithmetic. chicken performs *much* faster with fixnum optimizations.
23:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style europarl
23:46:28 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
23:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, speak.
23:46:34 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: yes, indeed. in fact, extremely difficult and sometimes tragic summer that we have a responsibility, although by a small oligarchy that is cut off from any hope of access even to the persecution of all political decision-makers. all this serves to enrich and complete the picture, we must take account of the new developments in the balkans.
23:53:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you read Irregular Webcomic?
23:53:50 <alise> *Webcomic! ?
23:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I do indeed.
23:54:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do, but sporadically (irregular, one might say); I'm thinking about reading it. From #1. To present day.
23:54:42 <alise> Tell me how crazy I am!
23:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I did that.
23:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I did it a year ago, but that's not too big a difference.
23:55:21 -!- zzo38 has set topic: I have nice flowers! They even talk! But I want to win a big spider! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:55:39 <Phantom_Hoover> What, doesn't everyone archive binge when they find an interesting webcomic?
23:55:51 <alise> Let's see. If it takes me seven seconds to read, digest, laugh at, and read and digest the annotations of, and then go on to the comic after, one single comic -- a ridiculously low estimate, most likely -- then it'd take five and a half hours, without breaks, to read all the comics. And that's if I did it all before the next comic is posted.
23:55:55 <alise> Methinks it is a multiple-day endeavour.
23:56:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do when there aren't 2812 freakin' stripts!
23:56:09 <alise> *strips
23:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> There were 2414 when I went through them!
23:56:32 <alise> I once tried to archive-binge User Friendly. I think I covered about five years or something.
23:56:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, give or take.
23:56:45 <cpressey> alise: HOW
23:56:53 <alise> cpressey: I had faulty humour receptors.
23:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I once calculated that on Archive Binge's highest setting, it would take 333 days to read all of Schlock Mercenary.
23:57:07 <cpressey> But as long as we're confessing, I archive-binged Sluggy Freelance once.
23:57:16 <alise> Sluggy -- isn't that the one written by a Mormon?
23:57:31 <alise> Or was that Schlock Mercenary?
23:57:37 <cpressey> alise: It's possible.  I don't track the religious beliefs of webcomic authors.
23:57:41 <alise> God, who even cares about all these shitty comics.
23:57:51 <alise> cpressey: Mormons are a bit weirder than pure religion :)
23:57:59 <alise> Produced Twilight, too! I'm sure that book commits all kinds of sins.
23:58:02 <alise> Like "don't be awful".
23:58:07 <cpressey> religious+ beliefs, then
23:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Twilight evidently deserves to be an SCP.
23:58:25 <alise> Yep, missionary
23:58:29 <cpressey> Twilight is some sick shit
23:58:35 <alise> I could deal with plain mormon, but I hate missionaries with a fiery passion.
23:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't believe for a second that Meyer wrote down her erotic vampire dreams.
23:59:13 <alise> Matz was a Mormon missionary, which makes me sad as he's a really nice guy.
23:59:20 <alise> Thankfully, I don't like Ruby nearly as much as I used to, so it's no issue!
23:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's clearly insidiously crafted to worm its way into teenage girls' minds.
23:59:29 -!- augur has joined.
23:59:32 <cpressey> totally, she dictated them to her mother, who wrote them down
23:59:52 <cpressey> isn't larry wall something too?
23:59:54 <alise> Naked.

2010-10-09:

00:00:02 <alise> wow, i like how that appeared after the larry wall comment
00:00:07 <alise> "Isn't Larry Wall something too?" "Naked!"
00:00:10 <cpressey> yeah, i was just going to say
00:00:14 <alise> Larry Wall is just plain Christian
00:00:23 <alise> however
00:00:24 <alise> "While in graduate school at UC Berkeley, Wall and his wife were studying linguistics with the intention afterwards of finding an unwritten language, perhaps in Africa, and creating a writing system for it. They would then use this new writing system to translate various texts into the language, among them the Bible."
00:00:36 <cpressey> oh yes
00:00:42 <cpressey> a biblinguist
00:00:44 <alise> Give a native culture a language... and a new religion!
00:00:49 <cpressey> they're fun
00:01:01 <alise> Never mind trying to bring them into the enlightened, scientific age. Or leaving them alone; no! We'll EVOLVE their backwardsness.
00:01:09 <alise> Erm. CREATE their backwardsness! No, wait, that's not right... DAMN YOU DARWIN!
00:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll bring advanced Western backwardsness to them!
00:01:53 <alise> Thankfully, Perl is both crazy and Wall a bit loopy.
00:01:59 <alise> So no cognitive dissonance!
00:03:00 * pikhq can has ie6, ie7, and ie8 app-specific VMs!
00:03:07 <pikhq> Erm.
00:03:10 <pikhq> Wine installs.
00:03:12 <pikhq> Not VMs.
00:03:13 <alise> pikhq: I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO EXPERIENCE THREE PAINS AT ONCE
00:03:19 <alise> *DIFFERENT PAINS
00:03:20 <pikhq> alise: INDEED
00:03:38 <alise> "A scale model of the Universe is not actually that hard to make. If you make a model the size of a basketball, then to scale everything in the Universe is smaller than an atom, so there's no need to even bother putting it in there.
00:03:38 <alise> So just take a spherical container and pump the air out. Voilà!" --DMM
00:03:42 <cpressey> you have know idea how desirable that setup is for testing in web-based companies
00:03:43 <alise> SCIENCE PROJECT OBTAINED
00:03:48 <alise> "This is a SCALE MODEL of the ENTIRE universe."
00:03:55 <alise> cpressey: *no
00:04:00 <alise> pikhq: BTW, you could have just used IEs4Linux.
00:04:05 <alise> Which ... does all that for you.
00:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, now make each wine install CoW.
00:04:16 <alise> Although, maybe not the per-app Wine installs.
00:04:18 <alise> But it does it somehow.
00:04:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Expand acronym.
00:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Copy on Write.
00:04:51 <cpressey> "you know, you have no idea" got mangled on the way to the keyboard
00:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you don't have 50 copies of each file.
00:05:06 <alise> Oh, I thought CoW was some application.
00:05:24 <cpressey> Committee of WarCraft
00:05:29 <cpressey> *Warcraft
00:05:55 <cpressey> It's an exciting massively multiplayer online game about the back-office aspect of warfare
00:06:11 <pikhq> alise: IEs4Linux is old and crufty and does obnoxious things that WINE doesn't need anymore.
00:06:20 <pikhq> Though, IE8 doesn't appear to work in WINE ATM.
00:06:26 <alise> pikhq: It's also that great thing: convenient.
00:06:33 <alise> >__>
00:06:38 <alise> Okay so it doesn't work any more.
00:06:40 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but it also creates a borken IE7.
00:06:40 <alise> But whatever.
00:06:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, there's a Wikipedia FUSE.
00:06:49 <pikhq> And slightly borken IE6.
00:06:51 <alise> http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/ies4linux
00:06:53 <alise> IE6 too.
00:06:54 <alise> Crashes.
00:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> WP's article says among its disadvantages are that it a) doesn't work and b) isn't maintained any more.
00:07:21 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: read-only, or can I make updates?
00:07:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :D
00:07:29 <alise> It doesn't work, but it is maintained!
00:07:36 <alise> cpressey: BUT HOW EDIT SUMMARY FROM EDITOR???
00:07:38 <pikhq> I've got a basically-perfect IE6 and an IE7 with graphical glitches.
00:07:41 <alise> FILESYSTEM INSUFFICIENT FOR WIKIWATCHERS
00:07:43 <cpressey> rm /mnt/wikipedia/*
00:07:50 <alise> pikhq: "Basically perfect [...] with [flaws]"
00:07:53 <alise> That word.
00:07:57 <alise> I do not think it means what you think it means.
00:08:26 <pikhq> alise: No, IE6 is pretty much perfect, and IE7 has a couple of graphical glitches.
00:08:30 <alise> Ah.
00:08:34 <alise> I missed the "an".
00:08:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Jarring thing in the 2008/2009 IWC apocalypse: Somehow Espionage didn't get destroyed???
00:08:52 <pikhq> The graphical glitches are *just* on its toolbar.
00:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, nor did Fantasy.
00:09:01 <alise> But then how did the universe get destroyed, if everyone has to destroy it at once for that to happen?
00:09:11 <alise> Or did it just say multiple? Regardless:
00:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that the Fantasy and Espionage universes are separate.
00:09:17 <alise> How can you claim that the *entire universe* has been destroyed?
00:09:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So they have no Death?
00:09:24 <pikhq> ... Hrm, it appears to render things oddly, too.
00:09:27 <alise> Because there's pretty clearly only one Death canon.
00:09:36 <alise> And that canon said "yo, everyone died".
00:09:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, blatantly false -- see crossovers on http://irregularwebcomic.net/cast/.
00:09:59 <pikhq> About the only issues I see with IE6 are... IE6.
00:10:04 <alise> Indeed, Death *first appeared* in Fantasy.
00:10:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Conclusion: THIS MAKES NO SENSE
00:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the only Fantasy-¬{Death} crossover I can think of was very contrived and clearly a one-off joke.
00:11:20 <alise> http://irregularwebcomic.net/cast/
00:11:27 <alise> There have been three non-Death Fantasy crossovers.
00:11:33 <alise> And four non-Death Space crossovers.
00:11:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And furthermore, Death is the important one.
00:11:41 <alise> Death *started* in Fantasy.
00:11:44 <alise> It's the same Death all the way through.
00:11:49 <Gregor> ... wtf
00:11:50 <alise> And that Death organisation said that everyone died.
00:12:03 <alise> So everyone *must* *have* *died*, so *WHAT HAPPENED TO ESPIONAGE AND SPACE?*
00:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, perhaps they run a multidimensional operation.
00:12:14 <alise> Gregor: WHAT.
00:12:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They said "multiple realities".
00:12:22 <alise> They accounted for that.
00:12:28 <alise> Every twindly bit of universe was destroyed, sez they.
00:14:23 <alise> DMM is too nice. Just the annotations where he goes on about stuff.
00:14:26 <alise> Far too pleasant.
00:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Have the Fantasy Deaths and the main theme universe Deaths ever been explicitly linked, other than sharing names?
00:15:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, yes.
00:15:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In conclusion: MAJOR PLOT HOLE
00:15:46 <alise> Don't say it's minor, IWC has a concrete plot and the frickin' universe got destroyed, any flaw in that involving UNIVERSES STILL EXISTING is major :P
00:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, perhaps the Deaths have their own subtle plans.
00:15:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well... OTOH
00:16:02 <alise> Fantasy and Space are both accounts of IRL RPG games.
00:16:06 <alise> Or purport to be.
00:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that the IWCverse is currently hurtling towards another cataclysm.
00:16:17 <alise> So you COULD argue -- although this has holes -- that since only the fictional universe got destroyed, they didn't.
00:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps some more canon welding will occur.
00:16:26 <alise> This is obviously hokum for so many reasons, but it almost gets you out of it. Sort of.
00:16:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And Space was in the 2009 apocalypse.
00:16:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest we tell him to fix it! :P
00:16:41 <cpressey> omg
00:16:41 <alise> Err, right.
00:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I doubt he hasn't noticed.
00:16:57 <alise> cpressey: Yes?
00:17:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Has he fully considered the implications, though?!?!
00:17:21 <cpressey> alise: i refuse to say
00:17:30 <alise> cpressey: You're exasperated at our canon arguments. :|
00:17:32 <alise> ADMIT IT
00:17:34 <cpressey> alise: got nu vagrant?
00:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we speak of the inventor of Piet. He has endless complexities beyond our ken.
00:17:49 <alise> cpressey: sure, got tolerance for clingy Q fangirls that hover around you and never attack?
00:17:56 <alise> and also currently ungolfed code to do so?
00:17:59 <alise> 'cuz that's what i've got right now
00:18:10 <cpressey> alise: sure why not
00:18:39 <alise> cpressey: plan to change the code? if you do i'd better upload debug.py as well
00:18:54 <cpressey> alise: prolly not but WHO KNOWS
00:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I always loved the IWC favicon.
00:19:18 <alise> cpressey: It's almost incomprehensibly short. Nobody can resist tweaking it.
00:19:44 <alise> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1208840.txt?key=xipxlhgc0dyfwptglqkg vagrant.py
00:20:16 <alise> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1208841.txt?key=sqzicem58jcp8gwcxeuba debug.py (run instead of vagrant.py to see exceptions rather than silent death)
00:20:30 <alise> cpressey: To get rid of mindless fangirls: Comment out the long for loop in T().
00:20:53 <alise> Fun fact: If you remove those lines entirely, you can't quite believe it's a game that does anything.
00:21:04 <alise> cpressey: Oh, and it may or may not work with Python 2.7; I forget if they made / into proper division then, or just in 3.0.
00:21:13 <alise> It relies on / being integer division. If it doesn't work, change the two divisions to use //.
00:21:53 <cpressey> i think they probably did not change / in 2.7 because wait what am i saying
00:22:04 <alise> cpressey: Gameplay: you know this. vikeys to move, q to quaff potions (displayed after HP), % is food, ! is potion, # is wall, the rest you can figure out yourself
00:22:10 <alise> oh and $ is cash
00:22:18 <alise> S is satiation, lose it and you die quickly without ridiculous hp and proximity to food
00:22:24 <cpressey> ty
00:22:26 <alise> and fwiw i strongly recommend commenting out the AI code if you want to play
00:22:29 <alise> it's very annoying
00:22:34 <alise> to have Qs cluster around you constantly
00:22:44 <alise> also it looks way shorter without it.
00:23:25 <alise> cpressey: And, yes, I do use "str" as the shortest way to write a function that, when called with no arguments, produces no side effects.
00:23:29 <alise> MWAHAHAHA
00:24:05 <alise> cpressey: Do you have any irritating "Pythonistas" there who love to go on about beautiful Python code and best practices and formatting your code properly and documenting it and oh the PEP-8 and?
00:24:15 <Phantom_Hoover> PEP-8?
00:24:16 <alise> cpressey: 'cuz if so, totally show them this. With the AI code taken out, it's too normal-looking.
00:24:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Python style guide.
00:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Was that the thing mentioned in that crazy ABC thing?
00:24:44 <alise> I don't know.
00:24:45 <alise> I doubt it.
00:25:30 <alise> cpressey: Oh, and yeah, despite being less than two kilobytes, my code *does* in fact feature a better scrolling mechanism than Crawl.
00:25:35 <alise> Conclusion: Crawl developers are morons
00:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, rereading the IWC apocalypse '09 arc, the Deaths only say the universe was destroyed.
00:28:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Not all of the universes.
00:29:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They also say that *everyone* died.
00:29:23 <alise> As in. Everyone.
00:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. all people in the universe are dead.
00:30:20 <alise> Oh, shut up.
00:30:28 <cpressey> never played Crawl
00:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I still go for the "Deaths have a secret agenda" theory
00:30:47 <cpressey> alise: re pythonistas, um sorta.  but not that bad.
00:31:00 <cpressey> PEP-8, yes.
00:31:24 <cpressey> "Python understands me but I'll never get along with Ruby", yes.
00:31:27 <alise> crawl is like nethack, but the monsters hate you personally as opposed to just being nasties, and even though you move your character stays in the centre because crawl is the game of headaches
00:31:36 <alise> also, it has a ridiculously huge sidebar
00:31:45 <cpressey> developers whose wardrobe consists almost entire of python-themed t-shirts, yes.
00:31:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:31:50 <alise> also, it has a command to explore the level for you, because they're so large and featureless that doing it manually would cause suicide in anyone
00:32:03 <alise> cpressey: yeah -- rip out the AI lines and show them this
00:32:17 <alise> then get them to run it and watch them cry as they try and figure out how guido could possibly have let this happen
00:33:47 <alise> "This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with today's comic. I just thought it was so interesting that I had an urge to share it." --http://irregularwebcomic.net/2203.html
00:34:53 <alise> "It's called 35mm film because it is 35 millimetres wide."
00:35:51 <alise> "Records, for those people younger than about 30 years old, were the precursors of compact discs."
00:35:58 <alise> I -- what 20-year-old does not know this?
00:36:49 <Sgeo> Even I knew it!
00:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The terminally stupid.
00:36:57 <Sgeo> Although I think it was a joke
00:37:05 <cpressey> har har
00:37:10 <cpressey> i am teh laugh
00:37:37 <alise> Sgeo: no, he gave the diameter
00:37:40 <alise> well, in approximate terms
00:37:42 <alise> (twice that of a CD)
00:37:43 <alise> "There is also a Nyquist plugin called Clipfix for Audacity that uses cubic splines to ensure that the restored signal is continuously differentiable."
00:37:49 <alise> so that's how it works.
00:38:02 <cpressey> ooo
00:38:07 <pikhq> Clever.
00:38:33 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
00:39:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:39:31 <alise> pikhq: Reversing the loudness war sounds SO GOOD
00:39:48 <alise> Although it decreases dynamic range a little because you have to amplify by -10dB first.
00:39:52 <alise> That may just be my imagination.
00:39:59 <alise> But some "climaxes" do seem a little less punchy.
00:41:11 <pikhq> alise: Whaddya mean, amplify by -10dB first?
00:41:31 <alise> pikhq: That's what you have to do with Clip Fix.
00:41:38 <pikhq> Oh, I see.
00:41:43 <alise> Otherwise, says it, it may not have the headroom to put in the interpolated samples.
00:41:51 <alise> Although in practice I think -3 to -5 dB would do it just fine.
00:42:25 <pikhq> Of course, it's not like what you're doing this to *has* dynamic range in the first place.
00:42:53 <alise> pikhq: Well... the music does... arguably. (Okay, very arguably; not the quietest band.) But the mastering sure as hell doesn't.
00:42:57 <alise> But --
00:43:02 <alise> if you have a non-clipped bit, and then a clipped bit after it,
00:43:08 <alise> then the punchiness of the transition is decreased
00:43:12 <alise> pikhq: Maybe we could just get Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab to release all good albums.
00:43:22 <alise> Sure, they do that weird gold CD stuff, but they sure as hell master properly.
00:43:31 <alise> (Okay, I don't actually *know* that, but I'm pretty sure they do.0
00:43:34 <alise> *do.)
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00:44:15 <alise> Incidentally, Clip Fix is *slow*.
00:44:26 <alise> It takes, like, an hour to do a bit-over-10-minutes song.
00:46:38 <alise> "(In 1988, George Bush called Mike Dukakis a "card-carrying member of the ACLU", in effect comparing the Bill of Rights with Communism and its defenders with Communists. This insult to the US Constitution inspired me, as it did many others, to join the ACLU. Let's hope the Shrub will not be president; one Bush was too many.)" --Stallman, 2000
00:46:42 <alise> DAMMIT STALLMAN, WHY DID YOU CURSE US
00:46:45 <alise> ...them
00:46:52 <alise> But all of us, we had to hear about it.
00:47:29 <alise> pikhq: Thing that needs to die: Single edits.
00:49:03 <alise> "Our (the UK) Education Secretary has links to Opius Dei. Ruth Kelly is her name
00:49:04 <alise> (very strange looking woman, some sort of Lesbo-mutant if you ask me)" --silly conspiracy forums
00:49:10 <alise> LESBO-MUTANT
00:49:23 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:50:45 <alise> pikhq: (Thing that needs to die: Music industry)
00:53:14 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:54:48 <zzo38> Thing that needs to die: Me. But not now.
00:55:39 <alise> zzo38: So, if you were told you would live forever, this would be terrible to you?
00:56:26 <zzo38> alise: Assuming many-universes, it is OK if I live forever in one possible universe, as long as it is not the case in all of them.
00:56:38 <alise> zzo38: Why is that?
00:56:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:56:59 <zzo38> alise: Surely if everyone live forever there will be no room.
00:57:43 <alise> zzo38: That is a position that is remarkably at odds with scientific progress.
00:58:18 <alise> And besides, if we assume many-universes, there is already a universe in which everyone lives forever.
01:00:26 <Sgeo> ARGH
01:00:30 <Sgeo> STOP CRASHING FLASH
01:00:32 <zzo38> What level of many-universes do you mean? I read a article there is four levels. What I mean is the one specified as level III in the article. If such a universe is exist, then it won't be like that forever.
01:00:33 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU FLASH
01:00:34 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU
01:00:49 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then just disable Flash, if it doesn't work?
01:00:59 <Sgeo> There are YouTube videos I want to watch
01:01:03 <zzo38> (Or else, write your own implementation)
01:01:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then use a conversion program, maybe.
01:07:56 <alise> Cyberrgs.
01:08:56 <zzo38> When watching Uncyclopedia, do so in a well lit room, and do not sit too close to the TV. We are absolutely not accountable for your actions, especially if you try to use this information in a dark room.
01:09:16 <zzo38> Consult a doctor if reading while pregnant, diabetic or hypersensitive to penicillin. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Void where prohibited. Where there is smoke there is fire. Swimming is the best form of exercise. Batteries not included.
01:09:46 <zzo38> Do not fold, spindle or mutilate. Call your mother, she's worried about you. Close cover before striking. Game pieces do not actually talk. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number.
01:10:00 <alise> Do not paste long quotes into IRC unless they're funny. Do not taunt.
01:11:00 <zzo38> Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. And also do not taunt long quotes into IRC unless they're funny. And also do not funny long quotes into CRI if they are not. And also.
01:12:50 <Sgeo> Maybe a restart will help
01:16:11 <zzo38> Why does it say "METAFONT failed for some reason" but there is no error message, and it seems to be working?
01:16:39 <zzo38> It also says "ignoring 0 strange path(s)"
01:17:03 <alise> Dunno.
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01:19:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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01:40:41 <cpressey> i came home to find a very tiny spider on my desk
01:41:36 <alise> cpressey: that's profound.
01:41:59 <cpressey> well, according to the topic, i guess i did not win
01:42:13 <cpressey> or i got like 556th place or something
01:42:18 <alise> cpressey: here's a vagrant.py with the AI pre-removed OMG how revolutionary:
01:42:20 <alise> http://pastie.org/1208931.txt?key=lqqwxvq9rvwdlbukvnmgtw
01:42:25 <alise> the ol' debug.py still applies
01:42:40 <alise> gah, the code is way too short. how the fuck does it work
01:42:43 <alise> makes no sense man
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01:44:36 <cpressey> it is the awesome power of joomla
01:44:40 <cpressey> er i mean python
01:46:19 <cpressey> (omg now they all KNOW my SEKRIT)
01:47:34 <cpressey> soon, alise, soon
01:47:54 <alise> cpressey: PLAY IT
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01:52:31 <cpressey> dude
01:52:33 <cpressey> nice hally
01:52:36 <cpressey> *u
01:52:40 <cpressey> or w/e
01:53:54 <cpressey> um does it wear off eventually?
01:54:43 <cpressey> um one inconsequential issue
01:54:56 <cpressey> if your terminal is >80 (or at least -- mine is)
01:55:07 <cpressey> the status bar is repeated
01:55:19 <cpressey> or rather, it "scrolls" a half page to the right each turn
01:55:23 <cpressey> alise ^
01:55:29 <alise> back
01:55:36 <alise> cpressey: yeah 80x24 or bust
01:55:44 <alise> supporting anything else = more bytes :)
01:55:53 <alise> resize it, it's not like the game uses any more :P
01:56:23 <alise> cpressey: i can think maybe what causes that
01:56:25 <alise> perhaps fixable
01:56:46 <alise> cpressey:
01:56:47 <alise> def C(x):s.insstr(23,0,' '*80);s.insstr(23,0,x);s.redrawwin()
01:56:49 <alise> replace C() with this
01:56:50 <alise> problem solved
01:56:58 <alise> although i still recommend 80x24 so you can see the border of vision
01:57:06 <cpressey> but the proper scrolling is very very cool
01:57:14 <alise> thanks
01:57:21 <alise> X-=(X-x)/17;Y-=(Y-y)/5
01:57:24 <alise> and only two statements, too!
01:57:40 <cpressey> integer division ftw
01:58:04 <alise> cpressey: btw to hallucinate wildly just keep eating food until the 1/15 chance smiles upon you
01:58:06 <alise> happens quite often
01:58:08 <cpressey> alise: does hallucination wear off
01:58:11 <alise> yes
01:58:16 <cpressey> it hasn't for me yet
01:58:16 <alise> 85 to 100 turns, pressing space may help
01:58:22 <alise> potions help
01:58:27 <alise> quaff potions if you have any
01:58:33 <alise> cpressey: to identify what things are, here's a cheat:
01:58:34 <alise> hold down enter
01:58:35 <cpressey> been a good 500 turns now
01:58:40 <alise> no, surely not
01:58:52 <cpressey> how do i know what potions i have
01:58:58 <alise> number next to HP
01:59:00 <alise> all potions are the same
01:59:01 <cpressey> well, maybe i got a lot of hallucinatory food and fifn'yt notice
01:59:05 <alise> just gets mixed into one infinite container
01:59:07 <alise> yeah that's likely
01:59:11 <cpressey> i have 47 potions?
01:59:18 <alise> cpressey: 47 HP restorable by potions
01:59:22 <cpressey> OH
01:59:25 <alise> actually tracking individual potions is too many bytes
01:59:29 <pikhq> alise: Loudness war'd albums have won Grammies for Best Engineered Album.
01:59:32 <cpressey> that explains why q put it down to 27
01:59:33 <alise>  if k=='q':
01:59:33 <alise>   q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300)
01:59:33 <alise>   if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T()
01:59:33 <alise>   continue
01:59:36 <pikhq> alise: Yes, really.
01:59:39 <alise> so it also takes away some U
01:59:46 <alise> pikhq: loudness war'd albums = all albums now
01:59:50 <alise> so that's not surprising, if depressing
02:00:00 <alise> it also means that great, modern albums are saddled with terrible production
02:00:20 <pikhq> alise: Not all albums, actually.
02:00:27 <pikhq> alise: Just an obnoxious amount of them.
02:00:34 <alise> pikhq: All major-label and most minor-label albums.
02:00:44 <pikhq> Like I said, obnoxious.
02:00:51 <alise> cpressey: btw, enter is designed to dismiss messages
02:00:54 <alise> to see the status line
02:00:59 <alise> but it redraws, and so re-hallus
02:01:01 <alise> despite taking 0 turns
02:01:06 <alise> so if you hold it down you can make out what things are mostly
02:01:13 <alise> since there's only a 1/3 chance a given tile will be distorted
02:01:21 <alise> this is a "bug" but it's way too much trouble to fix it
02:01:49 <pikhq> alise: It's sad that I have to applaud people for *having any dynamic range* in their music.
02:02:07 <cpressey> alise: pretty sure i'm perma-llucinating.
02:02:19 <alise> cpressey: how much S do you have?
02:02:26 <cpressey> 167
02:02:27 <alise> pikhq: well a lot of music has dynamic range musically, just not production-wise
02:02:34 <alise> cpressey: how many potions?
02:02:40 <alise> cpressey: and, hp?
02:02:41 <cpressey> (57)
02:02:43 <pikhq> alise: Well, yes. You know what I mean. Music, *as published*.
02:02:47 <cpressey> HP=149
02:02:58 <cpressey> 1087 turns, 1323 gold.
02:03:14 <cpressey> only remember seeing one "Yuk!" message
02:03:15 <alise> cpressey: q until all potions are gone, hold down any key -- i suggest space -- (that doesn't move or quaff or anything, and isn't enter) until you're at about S:10a
02:03:19 <alise> *S:10
02:03:23 <alise> it's Euuch, actually
02:03:24 <alise> but try that
02:03:32 <cpressey> w/e
02:03:32 <alise> if you're still hallu, then i'm confused and will think a lot
02:03:58 <alise> waaiit
02:04:01 <alise> potions may hurt hallu
02:04:01 <cpressey> ok
02:04:03 <cpressey> it wore off
02:04:05 <cpressey> at about S:70
02:04:09 <alise> since my hallu-healing code hurts
02:04:11 <alise> cpressey: kay
02:04:14 <alise> i'll fix this code now
02:04:19 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, it'd be awesome if artists would release the unmixed tracks from studio sessions.
02:04:28 <alise> done
02:04:30 <pikhq> alise: So that someone who gave a damn could mix it well.
02:04:33 <alise> pikhq: you mean with all the tracks and shit?
02:04:46 <cpressey> alise: I have a suggestion, if you want to hear it, for an additoin
02:04:50 <alise> pikhq: Nine Inch Nails did that with a few tracks from Year Zero but the individual tracks were polished-ish
02:04:50 <cpressey> *addition
02:04:55 <alise> cpressey: absolutely
02:04:56 <alise> cpressey: btw, patch:
02:04:59 <alise>   if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),85);P-=q;T()
02:05:02 <cpressey> alise: >
02:05:06 <alise> obvious which line this modification is to
02:05:09 <alise> cpressey: you mean downstairs?
02:05:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes. Just "here's the entire studio session."
02:05:20 <cpressey> increases an integer l which affects density
02:05:22 <cpressey> alise: yes
02:05:26 <alise> pikhq: was fun to disable random tracks though
02:05:40 <alise> affects density? why?
02:05:41 <cpressey> and also scrambles the playfield (use the intial population funciton whatever it is)
02:05:48 <cpressey> deeper levels have more shit in them
02:05:55 <pikhq> And no, people, it does not go up to 11.
02:06:09 <cpressey> (easy way to make it both harder and more rewarding, at least theoretically)
02:07:17 <cpressey> but, uh.  maybe combat first
02:07:22 <alise> cpressey: yes :P
02:07:24 <pikhq> alise: It'd also be awesome to see raw video being distributed. :P
02:07:33 * pikhq dislikes generation loss.
02:07:48 <alise> cpressey: my "plan" was to have some sort of monetary amount to get into hell or wherever
02:07:58 <alise> cpressey: where killing a monster gives you silly amounts of money compared to $ bags
02:08:01 <alise> so it's pretty much required
02:08:03 <alise> and then you get a fun boss
02:08:58 <cpressey> ah i see
02:09:45 <alise> cpressey: levels sound good, but increased density = increased risk of being boxed in by walls when you arrive
02:09:47 <alise> and that would suck
02:10:43 <cpressey> teleport spells!
02:10:48 <cpressey> (not too serious)
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02:12:17 <cpressey> let's see if the improvementsi made ot my bot work
02:14:08 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined.
02:14:17 <cpressey> har
02:14:25 <cpressey> i just realized, it responds to frigg
02:14:51 <cpressey> frigg: VERSION
02:14:54 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: Meh.
02:14:54 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: Meh.
02:15:01 <cpressey> yeah, like that!
02:15:12 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: help
02:15:13 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: Help is available for: assignment print
02:15:18 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: help assignment
02:15:18 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: @a=1 [server-scope assignment]
02:15:23 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: help print
02:15:23 <mzstorkipiwanbot> cpressey: print {@a} [send contents of @a to stdout]
02:15:28 <cpressey> ok then
02:15:44 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: @x=5
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02:15:49 <cpressey> COWARD
02:19:05 <cpressey> scuze me
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02:20:30 <cpressey> ohai
02:21:22 <cpressey> i have neat idea with lua has the %b pattern for parsing with regexp nono haha recursive
02:21:59 <alise> cpressey: i couldn't do random teleport
02:22:02 <Gregor> Somehow I managed to screw up FreeCiv enough that every AI wants to be allied with me, to the point where they'll dissolve an alliance because I refuse to go to war with somebody they're at war with, then immediately re-ally with me.
02:22:06 <alise> "random number from 1 to infinity, distributed evenly"
02:22:15 <alise> Gregor: How is that a bad thing?
02:22:16 <alise> YOU ARE GOD
02:22:28 <Gregor> It's just amusing :P
02:23:36 <cpressey> Gregor: omg u r hax1ng teh freeciv srcs?
02:23:43 <Gregor> Nope
02:23:47 <Gregor> I just configured it really weirdly.
02:24:18 <pikhq> Why are there only torrents of '95 on floppy?
02:24:23 <alise> pikhq: Because you t--.
02:24:27 <Gregor> It's especially funny right now because I'm a Republic (my favorite government type), and my senate won't let me go to war with anyone, so even if I wanted to honor my alliances, I can't.
02:24:42 <pikhq> ... And an inexplicable Finnish version on CD, and one that's got 0 seeds.
02:24:48 <cpressey> PARADOX GOVERNMENT
02:25:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, I do so love FreeCiv.
02:25:13 <alise> Gregor: Is the FreeCiv package in Debian okay?
02:25:27 <alise> cpressey: HOW FUN IS VAGRANT EH
02:25:30 <alise> What's your top moneys so far
02:25:45 <Gregor> alise: Almost.
02:25:47 <cpressey> alise: FUNNESS PER SOURCE CODE BYTE = AWESOME
02:25:51 <alise> Gregor: Almost?
02:25:57 <alise> cpressey: ABSOLUTE FUNNESS, THOUGH? :P
02:26:02 <Gregor> alise: It's a little bit wtf-is-ipv4-lawl, but otherwise it's all good.
02:26:09 <pikhq> Perhaps I should just fetch the floppies. And go with a tedious, tedious install process.
02:26:14 <alise> Gregor: ...I wasn't planning to play networked
02:26:18 <alise> pikhq: No way :P
02:26:25 <alise> pikhq: There is some CD that is just all the floppies catted together somehow.
02:26:27 <alise> That one worked for me.
02:26:37 <pikhq> alise: o.o
02:26:41 <Gregor> alise: Then 's all A-OK. Also, it's easy enough to do netplay if you call freeciv-server manually rather than from the client.
02:26:42 <alise> Gregor: Do I want freeciv gtk or sdl or what
02:26:46 <alise> I guess sdl
02:26:49 <Gregor> alise: gtk
02:26:52 <alise> Really?
02:26:57 <Gregor> The SDL client sucks, and not in a good way.
02:27:10 <alise> But playing games made with regular widget toolkits FEELS SO WEIRD.
02:27:13 <pikhq> There's also an AJAX client.
02:27:16 <alise> Do I have to deal with server bullshit if I just want to play?
02:27:16 <cpressey> alise: I AM A FUNNESS-FINITIST.  what good mans reach grasp exceed something something
02:27:36 <alise> Gregor: "freeciv-client-xaw3d" Q.E.D.
02:27:38 <pikhq> alise: The GTK client will operate the server as is sane for single-player use.
02:27:55 <pikhq> I suspect the others will as well, but I'm not as familiar with them.
02:28:00 <cpressey> Athena hates MIT for associating her name with that awful widgetkit.
02:28:24 <alise> Poor goddess
02:28:27 <pikhq> cpressey: Athena is more than just a toolkit, you know.
02:28:31 <alise> oh i thought you said their
02:28:32 <alise> xD
02:28:36 <alise> like a company or something
02:28:39 <alise> yeah athena itself is cool
02:28:46 <alise> produced X11
02:28:47 <alise> uhh
02:28:49 <alise> I reject my assertion
02:28:50 <alise> athena sucks
02:28:52 <pikhq> Kerberos.
02:29:03 <alise> fun fact, still deployed
02:29:10 <alise> poor MIT people, using GNOME 0.1 or whatever it is
02:29:16 <cpressey> http://animeholicph.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/card-captor-sakura-keroberos.jpg
02:29:25 <Gregor> alise: ...?
02:29:46 <alise> Gregor: what?
02:29:55 <Gregor> alise: DOT DOT DOT QUESTION MARK
02:30:09 <alise> cpressey: I can *almost* make that relevant in my head.
02:30:10 <alise> Almost.
02:30:16 <pikhq> Gregor: They have used X11 thin clients at MIT since the 80s.
02:30:48 <pikhq> I think they're still using some of the old, old, old school software on it, too.
02:30:55 <alise> pikhq: Apparently the architecture itself has program binaries themselves being run on NFS-or-something-like-it.
02:31:19 <alise> http://blog.spang.cc/posts/MIT_Athena:_Not_Dead_Yet/
02:31:25 <alise> http://blog.spang.cc/images/clean-athena.png
02:31:27 <alise> Actually GNOME 2.8.
02:31:32 <alise> Still... Jesus.
02:31:45 <cpressey> there was a zephyr too
02:31:57 <pikhq> cpressey: IM
02:32:17 <pikhq> alise: It's... Sun.
02:32:18 <pikhq> alise: Jesus.
02:32:35 <alise> http://hacks.mit.edu/by_year/1989/grumpy_fuzzball/gf_screen_large.gif The login screen (with fuzzball instead of the usual owl, a hack from december 1989)
02:32:44 <pikhq> It's running on SunOS. Not Solaris, SunOS.
02:32:50 <alise> pikhq: Nope.
02:32:53 <alise> RHEL 4.
02:32:56 <alise> See http://blog.spang.cc/posts/MIT_Athena:_Not_Dead_Yet/.
02:32:57 <pikhq> "sun4"
02:33:05 <alise> oh
02:33:08 <alise> "So, what I really just wasted over 600 words prepping for is to say that Athena 10 will be based on Ubuntu." circa 2008
02:33:11 <alise> pikhq: pretty sure that's the machine
02:33:14 <alise> or
02:33:14 <alise> rather
02:33:15 <alise> the server
02:33:18 <alise> the clients being RHEL
02:33:24 <alise> or maybe the other way around
02:33:28 <cpressey> "Athena 10 will be based on Ubuntu"
02:33:35 <alise> Athena 10 Technical Plan (Page Not Found)
02:33:36 <alise> reassuring
02:33:40 <cpressey> ok now She is pissed i'm pretty sure
02:35:14 <cpressey> a 4x-human-size virgin in armor, with a big-ass spear, bearing down on cambridge as we speak
02:35:31 <Gregor> *big ass-spear
02:36:15 <alise> cpressey: I like how you decided to mention she's a virgin.
02:36:30 <alise> "Still up for the taking, MIT guys! Just don't do it!"
02:36:35 <cpressey> alise: hey, it was one of the salient features attributed to her
02:36:43 <alise> http://blog.spang.cc/images/clean-athena.png <-- I love how RISC OS the launcher icons at the bottom are.
02:36:56 <cpressey> i guess i forgot the STONEMAKINGGORGONHEADSHIELD, though
02:37:09 <cpressey> fucking awesome
02:38:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_File_System
02:39:00 <alise> this is what they use
02:39:11 <alise> kerberos-based, who wouldda guessed?!?!?!
02:39:52 <alise> [[The proposed "3M" workstations included a million pixel display and a megabyte of memory, running at a million instructions per second. Unfortunately a fourth M, cost on the order of a megapenny, proved the 3M beyond the reach of students' budgets, so the initial hardware deployment in 1985 established a number of university-owned "clusters" of public workstations in various academic buildings and dorm
02:39:52 <alise> itories.]]
02:39:56 <alise> -- Wikipedia, "Andrew Project"
02:39:58 <alise> HUR HUR A PUN
02:40:01 <alise> We are Wikipedia
02:40:02 <alise> We are series
02:40:03 <alise> *serious
02:40:05 <alise> Yet we pun
02:40:06 <alise> Subtly
02:40:08 <alise> Laugh
02:42:56 <alise> pikhq: interestingly Athena is accessible from outside MIT...
02:43:05 <alise> the "prime" interface to that is MITnet, which is a dialup link :-)
02:43:08 <alise> (but they have telnet now...)
02:43:09 <cpressey> the mit campus map page is a google maps page with an "MIT" button menu
02:43:19 <pikhq> alise: Does rms still not have a password?
02:43:19 <alise> cpressey: they have a pdf of some sort i think
02:43:25 <alise> pikhq: does rms still have an account?
02:43:26 <cpressey> ....that does NOTHING when clicked
02:43:28 <alise> that is the more pertinent question
02:43:49 <pikhq> alise: Yes. His office is still there, I'm pretty sure.
02:44:19 <alise> pikhq: i forget, did he ever actually graduate
02:44:31 <cpressey> alise: jesus
02:44:35 <cpressey> alise: stupid question
02:44:36 <pikhq> He never *attended* MIT.
02:44:44 <pikhq> He graduated from Harvard and *worked* at MIT.
02:44:46 <alise> untrue
02:44:47 <cpressey> alise: you get famous, you don't NEED to graduate.
02:44:48 <alise> [[Stallman then enrolled as a graduate student in physics at MIT, but abandoned his graduate studies while remaining a programmer at the MIT AI Laboratory.]]
02:44:58 <alise> grad student, then he gave up and decided to stay
02:44:59 <pikhq> Oh, okay, he did actually enroll there.
02:45:09 <cpressey> alise: you do think sergei and that other guy graduated?  they're still on leave
02:45:13 <alise> Stallman abandoned his pursuit of a doctorate in physics in favor of programming.
02:45:13 <alise> While a graduate student at MIT, Stallman published a paper on an AI truth maintenance system called dependency-directed backtracking with Gerald Jay Sussman.[14] This paper was an early work on the problem of intelligent backtracking in constraint satisfaction problems. As of 2003, the technique Stallman and Sussman introduced is still the most general and powerful form of intelligent backtracking.[15]
02:45:13 <alise> The technique of constraint recording, wherein partial results of a search are recorded for later reuse, was also introduced in this paper.[15]
02:45:13 <pikhq> He's still a research affiliate.
02:45:18 <alise> cpressey: shaddap :)
02:45:20 <alise> pikhq: well, you know what?
02:45:23 <alise> there is an easy way to find out
02:45:34 <cpressey> alise: i'm srs
02:45:35 <alise> http://adminsr.com/blog/?p=201
02:45:37 <alise> LET'S SSH TO MIT
02:45:38 <alise> cpressey: okay :P
02:45:48 <cpressey> oh!
02:45:59 <cpressey> and MIT dungeon doesn't even contain a dungeon to speak of
02:46:00 <alise> Permission denied (publickey,gssapi-keyex,gssapi-with-mic,keyboard-interactive).
02:46:02 <alise> DRAT
02:46:03 <alise> FOILED AGAIN
02:46:11 <cpressey> pretty sure the name is a nod to dungeons and dragons instead
02:46:18 <Gregor> gssapi-with-mic
02:46:22 <Gregor> *brain axplote*
02:46:28 <alise> pikhq: okay that works with the kerberos login
02:46:32 <alise> I VERY MUCH doubt rms has a kerberos login
02:46:34 <alise> at least an active one
02:46:38 <cpressey> wait where was d&d invented
02:47:08 <Gregor> THE FIRIEST PITS OF HELL
02:47:19 <alise> cpressey: gary gygax's anus
02:47:23 <alise> TRUE FACT
02:47:26 <Gregor> Like I said.
02:47:30 <cpressey> alise: yes but
02:47:37 <alise> seems to just be
02:47:39 <alise> in his head
02:47:44 <cpressey> NEED lATLONG
02:47:45 <alise> nowhere particular
02:48:16 <alise> cpressey: (3+sqrt(2)i, pi+sqrt(0)^sqrt(a bit of abcesses) + not i, that other one... a one who's name i have forgotten)
02:48:17 <alise> HAVE FUN
02:48:45 <cpressey> alise: i no care if you have low opinion of it -- as a sociaL shift of sorts, d&d is significant
02:48:56 <alise> pikhq: stallman has like fifty honorary doctorates
02:48:57 <alise> and professorships
02:49:05 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Recognition
02:49:07 <alise> suck-up bitches
02:49:14 <cpressey> for whAt?
02:49:16 <alise> cpressey: did i ever say i had a low opinion of it
02:49:17 <cpressey> OH RIGHT
02:49:20 <cpressey> communism
02:49:20 <alise> i've never even played d&d
02:49:21 <cpressey> n/m
02:49:26 <alise> i think cpressey is drunk again
02:49:31 <cpressey> HEE
02:49:46 <cpressey> also pizza!
02:49:49 <cpressey> mmmm
02:50:11 <cpressey> thus the 1 hand typing
02:50:47 -!- jomjome has left (?).
02:52:09 <alise> i'd love to play around with an athena box, just to see how fucked up it is
02:52:18 <alise> i could put all sorts of Athena-virgin related puns here, but i won't
02:53:35 <cpressey> alise: appreciated.
02:53:45 <cpressey> alise: btw: J R R Tolkein.  Discuss.
02:54:28 <cpressey> or, don't.
02:54:39 <cpressey> i've never read his books, myself.
02:54:43 <alise> cpressey: a man. he said too little with too much and was a racist. despite that,
02:54:49 <alise> i still feel like i should read the lord of the rings.
02:55:16 <alise> i have read the beginning of /The Fellowship.../. it was far too verbose.
02:55:19 <alise> i'm sure i could get used to it.
02:55:27 <alise> but...
02:55:43 <alise> if i wanted to read something really long, there are like fifty things above it on my list :)
02:55:49 <cpressey> they tried to have us read /The Hobbit/ in 7th grade English class.  Then we stopped.  I usually assume someone's parents complained about SATANISM IN THE SCHOOLS.
02:55:55 <alise> i liked the films. of course they must be terrible adaptions.
02:55:57 <alise> but they're still good.
02:56:28 <alise> i think in today's world where fantasy is so... laughable, and with the canon of the films in my head, it'd be hard to take things seriously
02:56:59 <alise> cpressey: speaking of things made up of a lot of words, have you read Infinite Jest? I mean to sometime.
02:57:02 <cpressey> and then there's C S Lewis.  I have read his significant stuff.
02:57:10 <cpressey> <*exasperated sound*?
02:57:12 <cpressey> >
02:57:19 <cpressey> alise: I have not.
02:57:42 <alise> C. S. Lewis was a writer of Christian propaganda posing as bad children's fantasy.
02:58:01 <cpressey> ooh Quebec Seperatism, just like Beautiful Losers.  <*exasperated sound*>
02:58:01 <Gregor> (The best kind of propaganda)
02:58:05 <alise> i read all the narnia books when i was younger. i think i kept going because i knew they were meant to be *so* *great*
02:58:14 <alise> then they all died and went to heaven with jesus the lion
02:58:19 <alise> and ... they were not great, after all, in the end.
02:58:28 <cpressey> alise: in a wonderful wonderful train accident
02:58:34 <alise> yes
02:58:38 <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
02:58:53 <Gregor> `addquote <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
02:58:56 <alise> ...ranks high up the list of Stupid Things to Say After Coming Out of a Mental Institution
02:58:57 <cpressey> yes.  kind of twisted.  also, santa clause gave them swords and armor and shit in the first book.
02:58:58 <HackEgo> 237|<alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
02:59:01 <cpressey> *claus
02:59:55 <alise> cpressey: Gravity's Rainbow! also made out of a lot of words. have you read it? i have not.
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03:00:07 <alise> GUYS, BOOKS ARE MADE OUT OF WORDS, SOMETIMES A LOT OF THEM, WHAT IS THAT?
03:00:17 <cpressey> alise: I want to.  ++ because Pat Benetar made an album with that name.
03:00:21 <cpressey> HIT ME WITH YOUR BEST SHOT
03:00:23 <cpressey> love the hair
03:00:56 <cpressey> Damn, so much I haven't read yet!
03:00:57 <alise> FINNEGANS WAKE
03:01:01 <cpressey> YES
03:01:02 <alise> made out of WAY TOO MANY WORDS
03:01:05 <alise> i also haven't read it
03:01:11 <alise> I HAVE READ SURPRISINGLY LITTLE THINGS THAT I SHOULD HAVE
03:01:17 <cpressey> I fread Dante's Inferno, and Neechy's A.S.Z., this summer, so that's something.
03:01:28 <cpressey> *read
03:01:33 <cpressey> fread is for C programs.
03:01:42 <alise> "Despite these obstacles, readers and commentators have reached a broad consensus about the book's central cast of characters and, to a lesser degree, its plot."
03:01:47 <alise> well, we know who the characters are!
03:02:04 <cpressey> Hm, also I have seen the Catch-22 film, but not read the book.  Also,
03:02:23 <cpressey> Cat's Cradle - Vonnegut
03:02:34 <cpressey> well, it has its cult following, who knows if it's *actually* good.
03:02:43 <cpressey> I mean, SIASL has it's cult following too.
03:02:52 <cpressey> And when I was a teenager, I was all, "Wow!  Grok!  Heh"
03:02:54 <alise> vonnegut is cool. would like to read. haven't. hmph
03:02:55 <cpressey> but really
03:03:00 <alise> apparently the catch-22 book is good, sez friend
03:03:02 <cpressey> c'mon
03:03:15 <alise> define siasl
03:03:17 <alise> Welcome to the home of the Southern Illinois Adult Soccer League (SIASL). We are the only coed adult soccer league in the Marion/Carbondale area.
03:03:22 <cpressey> Stranger in a Strange Land
03:03:26 <cpressey> HAHAHA
03:03:40 <cpressey> I love internet acronym pollution
03:03:50 <alise> i like heinlein a bit... but not too much
03:04:04 <alise> the fine line between something and libertarianism
03:04:07 <cpressey> Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein, Michael Valentine Smith, Water Brother, Grok
03:04:26 <alise> he coined grok, if you didn't know
03:04:33 <cpressey> Everyone says grok.
03:04:44 <cpressey> You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.
03:05:31 <alise> it's become assimilated since the 60s dude :P
03:05:46 <cpressey> and completely watered down, was my only point
03:05:57 <cpressey> Now, sass
03:06:03 <cpressey> That's underused.
03:06:28 <cpressey> Hm, what else of good books?  ...
03:06:53 <cpressey> Drawing a blank
03:07:06 <alise> BOOKS SUCK
03:07:12 <cpressey> There is that
03:07:43 <cpressey> Oh - A Clockwork Orange -- the book is very good -- you can tell it was written by a composer
03:08:11 <cpressey> Logan's Run -- the movie is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than the book -- the book is incompreh. and pretent.
03:08:24 <cpressey>  /mode wooster
03:08:59 <cpressey> So, watch Logan's Run and read A Clockwork Orange, NOT the other way round
03:09:11 <cpressey> Also, huh.
03:10:04 <cpressey> "Waldo" by Robert Heinlein and "A Logic Named Joe" by.... uh... Murray Leinster
03:10:37 <cpressey> Um, movies.
03:10:48 <cpressey> Amelie, actually, was very good
03:11:10 <cpressey> TRON, the original.  I refuse to participate in any remake hype
03:11:34 <cpressey> "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" predates the Matrix by, I dunno, 2 decades
03:11:34 <Gregor> 2001: A Space Odyssey
03:11:49 <alise> -- err didn't notice any of this
03:11:58 <alise> i don't mind incompreh. and pretent. :)
03:12:16 <cpressey> Gregor: yeah.  it's like, watch the movie AND read the book, for that one, to get the whole picture
03:12:27 <Gregor> cpressey: In the opposite order though.
03:12:30 <cpressey> even though the book and the movie are set in the orbit of different fuckin planets
03:12:33 <alise> cpressey: scifi! always the destination when you run out of GOOD books
03:13:39 <cpressey> alise: you don't mind slogging through works that are incomprehensible and pretentious?  OR you don't mind me making abbrevs. for those wo.?
03:13:48 <alise> the former
03:13:53 <alise> as long as they're amusing in some way
03:14:12 <cpressey> (Which is the Wooster thing.  Also, Wodehouse is cool.  Like Douglas Adams of the 20's.  Anyway)
03:14:36 <alise> SCIFI
03:14:36 <alise> go
03:14:44 <cpressey> alise: I really can't recommend the Logan's Run book.  But, you know, I guess, I managed to finish it, unlike say Millenium
03:14:46 <Gregor> Isaac Asimov
03:14:51 <cpressey> Movies are so much easier to finish
03:15:09 <alise> Gregor: duh
03:15:12 <alise> i mean everything else
03:15:17 <Gregor> Duh indeeeeed! :P
03:15:28 <cpressey> Asimov: short stories.  The whole Foundation thing?  Interesting idea but I CANNOT READ THAT MUCH EXTRAPOLATING THAT IDEA.
03:16:00 <cpressey> Again, I must say: A Logic Named Joe.  That is a beautiful story.  By an almost unknown author.
03:16:24 <alise> stanislaw lem, i want to read Solaris, just haven't got around to it! mrf!
03:16:27 <cpressey> I read it for the first time, on a plane, while I was on my way to an internship at a large dotcom search engine company.
03:16:29 <alise> The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, of course
03:16:32 <alise> (if you can stomach it)
03:16:40 <cpressey> So it was kind of hyperappropriate
03:16:51 <cpressey> alise: I've heard of im
03:17:04 <alise> cpressey: http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html
03:17:04 <cpressey> Intriguing, although not sure what to make of it
03:17:09 <alise> it is good (and not very long)
03:17:20 <cpressey> OH HA HELLO AGAIN KURO5HIN ARE YOU STILL AROUND HA
03:17:22 <alise> but, uh, yeah, there's sort of zombie rape-torture in the first chapter
03:17:28 <alise> it does serve a plot-relevant purpose, but, you know
03:17:31 <alise> you still have to read it
03:17:43 <alise> cpressey: well it was published on kuro5hin in 2002
03:17:45 <cpressey> if i'm not mistaken that's some kind of amplifier
03:17:49 <alise> so when it was actually any good :)
03:17:54 <alise> cpressey: it's meant to look like a moth
03:18:11 <alise> evidence: "mopimoth.gif" and he calls it the moth graphic or something on another page of the site
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03:20:51 <alise> cpressey: oh and everything Sam Hughes has ever written
03:20:52 <alise> obviously
03:21:01 <cpressey> hmmm
03:21:17 <cpressey> oh wait that guy?
03:21:50 <Gregor> No, that other guy.
03:21:55 <alise> cpressey: qntm.org
03:22:02 <alise> you may know him for How to Destroy the Earth
03:22:15 <alise> his two novels are the Ed stories and Fine Structure
03:22:23 <alise> i have read the former twice and am in the stalled process of reading the latter
03:22:41 <cpressey> i know him from his blog posts rather than his fiction
03:23:06 <alise> but his blog posts are just about drinking to excess according to various rules about which drinking establishments you go to!
03:24:23 <cpressey> are they?  i thought they were about random inconsquential CS theory shit
03:24:34 <cpressey> alTHOUGH
03:24:37 <cpressey> on inSPECTION
03:41:07 <pikhq> GOD DAMMIT WINDOWS THE DISK IS IN THE FUCKING DRIVE STOP SUCKING
03:55:27 <cpressey> `etymology genius
03:55:44 <cpressey> c'mon HackEgo
03:55:44 <HackEgo> genius \  late 14c., from L. genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent," from root of gignere "beget, produce" (see kin), from PIE base *gen- "produce." Meaning "person of natural intelligence or talent" first recorded 1640s. \  \  genial \  1560s, from
03:55:47 <cpressey> yay
03:55:58 <alise> `etymology hack
03:56:04 <HackEgo> hack (1) \  in O.E. tohaccian "hack to pieces," from W.Gmc. *khak- (cf. O.Fris. hackia, Du. hakken, O.H.G. hacchon), perhaps infl. by O.N. hggva "to hack, hew," from PIE *kau- "to hew, strike." Sense of "short, dry cough" is 1802. Noun meaning "an act of hacking" is from 1836; fig. sense of "a try, an attempt" is first attested
03:58:50 <cpressey> höggva
04:07:18 <pikhq> alise: Okay, it seems what the problem is is that the Windows installer *sometimes forgets to install half the network stack*.
04:08:34 <alise> pikhq: :D
04:08:39 <alise> pikhq: I think it's rather that it's not on the CD.
04:08:41 <alise> I couldn't get it to install.
04:08:56 <pikhq> alise: I've had the same problem with two different install media.
04:09:08 <pikhq> alise: And it apparently *just happens on some systems*.
04:09:32 <pikhq> Yes, Windows 95 has a braindead installer bug.
04:10:02 <alise> LAWL
04:10:09 <cpressey> start me up!
04:14:54 <pikhq> Whoa. There are plants that do not need sunlight at all.
04:15:21 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0a/Indian_pipe_PDB.JPG Yes, that is a *plant*.
04:17:16 <cpressey> i'm... that's.... ok
04:18:13 <cpressey> "i'm a plant, but the whole plant schtick, no, i don't play that way."
04:18:50 <pikhq> It's parasitic upon the mycorrhiza in the roots of a nearby tree.
04:24:23 <alise> GAME THEORY ADMIRAL: http://imgur.com/oYeTa.jpg
04:24:33 <alise> It's zero-sum!
04:24:43 <GreaseMonkey> wow
04:25:29 <Gregor> Vorpal, cpressey, whoever: http://codu.org/tmp/zee1-2010-10-08.ogg zee1, now with FLAVOR!
04:26:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Insufficiently FLAC
04:27:41 <pikhq> Also, have you considered going back in time and doing some NES composition?
04:27:51 <Gregor> Uploading a FLACcid one will take a while :P
04:28:01 <Gregor> My time machine is broken.
04:28:02 <pikhq> FLACcid; nice.
04:28:16 <pikhq> Well, you can still do chip tunes.
04:28:56 <pikhq> Especially for the NES or SNES; their sound chips are emulated as accurately as is possible.
04:29:43 <Gregor> Yeah, well I only want to do chip tunes for the MSX, NeoGeo and Sega Saturn!
04:30:08 <pikhq> MSX and NeoGeo ought to be feasible.
04:30:14 <pikhq> But does anybody even *care* about the Saturn?
04:30:35 <Gregor> Did anyone own a Saturn? :P
04:30:36 <cpressey> Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so.
04:30:44 <cpressey> Gregor: I SAW A LOT OF COMMERCIALS
04:30:44 <Gregor> I think they sold about four :P
04:30:51 <cpressey> During winter '96
04:30:52 <pikhq> Oh, it was apparently popular in Japan.
04:30:53 <cpressey> MAAAAN
04:30:59 <pikhq> It came out in '94.
04:31:01 <pikhq> There.
04:31:19 <pikhq> And released a bit before the Playstation.
04:31:24 <Gregor> FINEFINE
04:31:32 <Gregor> I'll write chiptunes for the Sega 32X.
04:31:36 <cpressey> Playstation, very arguably, won.
04:31:57 <pikhq> cpressey: Not "arguably".
04:32:27 <Gregor> I'm sure you can find some property by which Playstation didn't win :P
04:32:29 <pikhq> The Playstation was the first console to sell 100 million units.
04:32:31 <pikhq> :)
04:32:36 <cpressey> limit {0...inf} arguably
04:32:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, it didn't win against the Playstation 2.
04:33:32 <pikhq> Best-selling console ever, and it's *still selling*. Jeeze.
04:33:41 <cpressey> I have good memories of the Playstation [1], actually.
04:34:00 <pikhq> The PS1 had many a good game. Though much of it has aged rather poorly.
04:34:15 <Gregor> pikhq: "Still selling" isn't much of a statement, really.
04:34:18 <Gregor> pikhq: The Genesis is still selling in some markets.
04:34:18 <pikhq> (unlike SNES games, for instance, which I could believe came out *yesterday*)
04:34:20 <cpressey> Tomb Raider 2.  Cool Boarders 2.  Twisted Metal 2.
04:34:35 <cpressey> PARAPPA THE RAPPER
04:34:44 <Gregor> Only sequels are good :P
04:34:52 <pikhq> Gregor: Until last year it was outselling all other home consoles, IIRC.
04:35:11 <cpressey> The sequal to Parappa sucked, but otherwise, I agree: there is a Version Two Phenomenon at play.
04:35:18 <pikhq> Or maybe year before that. Anyways. It's still absurd.
04:35:28 <Gregor> cpressey: The sequel to Parappa the Rapper? You mean DDR?
04:35:34 <cpressey> Well, "sucked" is too hard, but.  Not as good.
04:35:42 <cpressey> Gregor: no, IIRC there was a Parappa 2.
04:35:43 <Gregor> pikhq: Here, have your FLACcid zee1: http://codu.org/tmp/zee1-2010-10-08.flac
04:35:45 <pikhq> Gregor: It's still selling well in pretty much all markets, though.
04:35:49 <Gregor> cpressey: HELLO WELCOME TO JOKES
04:35:57 <cpressey> Gregor: OHAI FUCK YEAH
04:36:05 <pikhq> Gregor: \o/
04:36:05 <myndzi>         |
04:36:05 <myndzi>         >\
04:36:43 <pikhq> Kinda amazing the Genesis is still being made, though.
04:37:52 <cpressey> pikhq: still.. being...
04:38:20 <pikhq> cpressey: Yes.
04:38:23 * cpressey 's alcohol-infused brain struggles to process this
04:40:15 <cpressey> I am so out of touch with the console world, it seems.
04:40:31 <pikhq> You can go into a store and purchase a Sega Genesis.
04:40:45 <pikhq> (well, you'll have to hunt in the US; it's sold domestically, but not commonly.)
04:41:06 <cpressey> PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY GAMES
04:41:11 <alise> <pikhq> Kinda amazing the Genesis is still being made, though.
04:41:12 <alise> what
04:41:12 <cpressey> i got that far
04:41:26 <pikhq> alise: You can go out and buy a BRAND NEW Sega Genesis.
04:41:36 <alise> pikhq: it feels like i'm high, am i high?
04:41:44 <alise> just thought of Rocket Man, so yes, yes I am
04:41:48 <cpressey> "Sehhh-Gahhh"
04:41:52 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/GenesisFirecore.JPG You can find this in stores right now.
04:41:52 <alise> Sega Genesis, a video game console
04:41:52 <alise> Genesis (magazine), a pornographic magazine
04:42:00 <alise> juxtasuppository
04:42:10 <alise> supposition...tory
04:42:26 <alise> pikhq: psht, FIRECORE
04:42:29 <alise> i want ... water...core
04:42:39 <pikhq> Incompatible with the Sega CD, Sega 32X, and the Power Base Converter, but *it's a freaking brand new Sega Genesis*.
04:43:23 <alise> genesis does...
04:43:24 <alise> ...
04:43:25 <alise> ...
04:43:25 <alise> ..
04:43:27 <alise> .
04:43:27 <alise>  
04:43:31 <alise> what sonyn't
04:43:40 * alise laughs
04:43:51 <pikhq> What Nintendon't.
04:43:55 <alise> SONYN'T
04:44:11 <pikhq> Such a shame they stopped making the SNES 7 years ago.
04:44:21 <alise> ...
04:44:23 <alise> what
04:44:31 <alise> i am hallucinating your words
04:44:35 <alise> what is the number that looks like 7 here
04:44:41 <pikhq> Just that.
04:44:48 <alise> Discontinued
04:44:48 <alise> JP 2003[1]
04:44:48 <alise> NA 1999[2]
04:44:49 <cpressey> 2003
04:44:55 <alise> well more like eleven here
04:44:57 <alise> but still
04:44:58 <alise> wtfff
04:45:15 <pikhq> That same year they stopped making the NES.
04:45:16 <alise> anyone ever use a nes emulator called nesticle?
04:45:18 <pikhq> Well, Famicom.
04:45:23 <pikhq> alise: Nesticle sucks ass.
04:45:25 <pikhq> alise: But yes.
04:45:26 <cpressey> alise: i tried... once
04:45:26 <alise> it does
04:45:29 <alise> but the cursor
04:45:34 <alise> will always stick in my memory
04:45:40 <alise> THE BLOOD oh the blood
04:45:47 <cpressey> i also tried something called "DarcNES"
04:45:49 <cpressey> AH HA PUN
04:46:09 <alise> find your inner hobbitnes with HobbitNES
04:46:14 <alise> *ness
04:46:17 <cpressey> Ah, the FreeBsd 4.X days
04:46:25 <alise> pikhq: SU PER FA MICOM
04:46:35 <cpressey> alise: I HAD ONE (briefly)
04:46:43 <cpressey> picked up at the SPCA thrift store
04:46:54 <cpressey> played a friend's supernes cart
04:47:31 <cpressey> i also picked up a... something too fucking obscure for me to remember
04:48:11 <cpressey> geez, it was like an Oddessy^2 in its obscurity, what was it?
04:48:51 <cpressey> i think it had "system" in its name
04:49:36 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console goddamn WP I hate you I love you
04:49:56 <cpressey> TurboGrafx THAT WAS IT
04:50:16 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurboGrafx-16 HOLY FUCKING OBSCURE.
04:50:23 <Gregor> HaHAAAA TurboGrafx
04:50:36 <cpressey> "PC Enginge" is even less obscure, and that was the Japanese version
04:50:48 <cpressey> I never got it to boot up.
04:50:51 <Gregor> Vorpal, cpressey, pikhq, whoever: http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-08.ogg zee5, now with FLAVOR!
04:50:57 <cpressey> No carts!
04:51:18 <cpressey> WHOA
04:51:53 <cpressey> zee5, now with gnarly visualization, presumably because ubuntu has decided firefox should do that now ok
04:52:23 <Gregor> Like I said.
04:52:31 <Gregor> Flavor.
04:55:07 <cpressey> also crashing
04:55:18 <Gregor> FLAVOR
04:57:06 <cpressey> "Mattel Electronics sold the rights for its Intellivision system to the INTV Corporation, who continued to produce Intellivision consoles and develop new games for the Intellivision until 1991."
04:57:55 <cpressey> !open
04:58:04 <cpressey> !sh open
04:58:30 <alise> zee5 rules
04:58:38 <alise> first minute anyway
04:59:14 <cpressey> have downloaded, still trying to play in a way that doesn't gefuck my system
04:59:40 <Gregor> LAWL
04:59:44 <Gregor> eRR
04:59:51 <Gregor> wHY IS MY CAPSLOCK ON
04:59:58 <alise> WHY NOT CAPSLOCK ALWAYS
05:00:24 <Gregor> CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE-CONTROL FOR COOL
05:00:29 <cpressey> CRASH BANDICOOT, SPYRO THE DRAGON
05:02:06 <cpressey> YAY I HEAR Z5 nOW
05:02:24 <cpressey> i always liked this one anyway
05:02:43 <alise> oh that fixclip thing may not be the one that comes with audacity w/e
05:02:55 <alise> Gregor: what was it pre-flavour? soundfont?
05:03:17 <Gregor> alise: The only difference is adjusted volumes and panning.
05:03:28 <Gregor> Just makes it feel more ... complete.
05:03:52 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:04:01 <alise> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2391 for tomorrow
05:04:57 <alise> "yes y|" useless use of yes' argument award
05:05:02 <alise> yes(1)'s, whatever
05:05:03 -!- wareya has joined.
05:05:27 <cpressey> gehhh
05:05:51 -!- augur has joined.
05:06:08 <cpressey> I shall make concessions to the sucky OS, and in doing so, shall be considered cool
05:06:48 <alise> cpressey: wut
05:06:59 <alise> that ltu article?
05:07:02 <alise> it's about hardware, not the os
05:07:23 <cpressey> I shall make concesions to the sucky hardware, then!
05:07:28 <cpressey> All glory to my algorithm!
05:07:30 <cpressey> G'narrrrr
05:07:43 <alise> cpressey: erm
05:07:48 <alise> these issues are pretty fundamental
05:08:01 <alise> you're just looking for something to complain about :)
05:08:23 <cpressey> I'm not complaining
05:08:35 <alise> ok
05:08:39 <cpressey> My interests do lie elsewhere, though
05:08:41 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-08.flac zee5, now with IMPOTENCE!
05:09:44 <cpressey> alise: As I've mentioned before: give me an OS that will send my process a signal "I'm about to page you out!  Is there any memory you could do without?"  -- then let's talk
05:09:58 <cpressey> I know of no such OS currently
05:10:27 <cpressey> cooperation between different levels of the hierarchy is fucking almost nonexistent
05:11:23 <cpressey> jesus, Windows 7 and the CD-ROM... no, let's not even go there.  I guess I should just be happy that the audio isn't done with A WIRE TO THE SOUND CARD anymore.
05:11:51 <cpressey> hey, zee5 is looping and i'm not even noticing
05:12:07 <Gregor> cpressey: ... really? What player do you have that loops seemlessly without asking it? :P
05:12:31 <cpressey> Gregor: um... "Totem Movie Player" apparently
05:12:47 <Gregor> Also, *seamlessly
05:15:50 <cpressey> Also, Eightebed, IE8, etc has made me think about how memory leaking is pretty much unvoidable (not that I"m giving up -- just re-contextualizing the problem -- you cannot trust programmers to get anything right, I'm afraid.)
05:16:12 <Gregor> Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbage colleeeeeeeeection :P
05:16:12 <cpressey> Many many Java programs have shit memory management characteristics, GC or no GC.
05:16:23 <cpressey> Gregor: it's not enough, sadly.
05:16:33 <cpressey> I GFORGOT TO WEAK MAH POINTERS FUCK
05:16:37 <Gregor> Fair enough, you have to have non-stupid programmers too.
05:16:45 <Gregor> Or, solve the problem by buying more memory.
05:16:52 <Gregor> That's worked for CPU's 'til 2008 ;)
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05:17:07 <cpressey> Gregor: I used to HATE that thought.  Now... well I still do but... fuck, I dunno.
05:17:13 <cpressey> DRINK IS THE ONLY SOLUTION
05:17:37 <Gregor> Put your brainpower into the more useful problem of programming models for parallelism that aren't totally unusable.
05:17:52 <cpressey> I also still grit my teeth at the sound of the phrase "Boehm conservative collector", but...
05:18:45 <alise> Gregor: what happened in 2008?
05:18:55 <cpressey> The childish, innocent part of me keeping wispering "program proving, chris... it's not just a pipe dream of dijsktra's, you know..."
05:19:02 <cpressey> *keeps
05:19:26 <cpressey> If we had feasible, workaday tools for proving, like we do for unit tests...
05:19:36 <Gregor> alise: I'm approximating the point where all energy started going into making more cores, rather than faster CPUs.
05:19:59 <cpressey> Good god, but programmers would have to *reason*.  Well, argh, they *do*, kinda, but, also SO NO.
05:20:02 <alise> more like 2006-7
05:20:12 <alise> maybe not
05:20:17 <alise> yeah you're right
05:20:22 <Gregor> "All energy"
05:20:27 <alise> this 1.33ghz proc is zippy
05:20:29 <Gregor> Not "the first little bits"
05:20:29 <alise> :P
05:21:11 <cpressey> I had a prof, around 2008, who was very smart about the whole Moore's Law thing.
05:21:34 <cpressey> Moore's Law is something you see when your technology hasn't come near the limit of its potential yet.
05:22:02 <cpressey> The mid-oughts is where we started to see silicon IC technology come near the limit of its potential.
05:22:20 <Gregor> Yup
05:22:22 <cpressey> So all the effort started going towards "How can we parallelize"
05:22:24 <Gregor> And then we're all fucked.
05:22:29 <Gregor> And that's how!
05:22:30 <cpressey> And GUES WHAT?
05:22:45 <Gregor> We can't!
05:22:56 <cpressey> "How can we parallelize?" as a research question, is prit' near ISOMORPHIC to "Is P = NP?"
05:23:38 <oerjan> P = NC, actually ;D
05:23:41 <oerjan> iirc
05:24:06 <alise> goodnight
05:24:07 <alise> bye
05:24:09 <cpressey> oerjan: Oh fine, bring Nick into this :)
05:24:10 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:24:28 <oerjan> (still an incredibly hard, unsolved problem, of course)
05:24:51 <cpressey> I attended the university he was a Prof at for a long part of his career, but was too late -- he moved to some uni in the US by the time I was there.
05:25:07 <oerjan> aha
05:25:12 <cpressey> When I was there, there was almost *no one* there in theory or languages, in seriousness.
05:25:19 <cpressey> Which was sad.
05:25:47 <cpressey> Still, a few good people, in other areas (AI and uh... hardware theory, I gues you could say.)
05:26:07 * oerjan is following lipton's blog and occasionally balks at the custom of calling TCS simply "theory"
05:26:38 <oerjan> in his last post, he even used it to _contrast_ with mathematics
05:26:51 <cpressey> ^_-
05:30:05 <cpressey> oerjan: I'm not sure I'd agree with the P=NC characterization of "the parallelization agenda", *but*, maybe. I don't know enough about NC.
05:31:48 <cpressey> at any rate: http://www.hotchips.org/archives/hc21/2_mon/HC21.24.300.ParallelComputingCenters-Epub/HC21.24.310.Patterson-UCB-ParLab.pdf
05:32:24 <cpressey> that is (not exactly, but close to) the paper the smart HW/CS prof had us read in my "advanced computer architecture" class, around 2008
05:33:40 <cpressey> i keep thinking, sadly, that there is no real solution.
05:33:48 <cpressey> if your problem is parallelizable: great!
05:33:55 <cpressey> if not: too bad.
05:34:09 <oerjan> ...and that triggered an Adobe Reader update.
05:34:16 <cpressey> YAYAYYA
05:34:40 <cpressey> wish I could find the actual *paper* instead of presentations based on it
05:35:25 <cpressey> About the same time, "Fortress" was hot, too
05:35:36 <cpressey> My god!  This is only 2.5 years later, really
05:35:57 <cpressey> It already seems like another internet generation has gone by
05:36:00 * cpressey is scared
05:36:15 <cpressey> Hm, but I'm still using the same chat protocol I used in 1995!
05:38:04 <cpressey> I thought teh futar might be in photonics, but, apparently not, because they still require coherent light (lasers), which require quite a bit of power.
05:38:21 <cpressey> If they could be done with sunlight...
05:38:49 <cpressey> (still listening to zee5, looping!)
05:38:59 <oerjan> graphene will save us all! AUM!
05:39:34 <cpressey> "Not to be confused with Grapheme." ty, wp
05:39:52 <oerjan> iirc there is also graphane
05:39:59 <cpressey> wait that's just... a graphite sheet
05:41:05 <augur> heyo
05:41:45 <oerjan> cpressey: and the star of this year's nobel prize in physics
05:42:15 <cpressey> "In 2008 graphene produced by exfoliation was one of the most expensive materials on Earth, with a sample that can be placed at the cross section of a human hair costing more than $1,000 as of April 2008 (about $100,000,000/cm2).[10] Since then, exfoliation procedures have been scaled up, and now companies sell graphene by the ton.[16]"
05:42:21 <cpressey> economies are weird that way
05:42:55 <cpressey> "oh, you WANT this?  well, let's start making it"
05:43:06 <pikhq> There is such a thing is a digital speaker. There is seriously such a thing as a digital speaker.
05:43:12 <cpressey> and suddenly, you can afford it
05:43:26 <cpressey> pikhq: digital in... what sense?
05:43:34 <augur> hows life in the esosphere, peeps
05:43:40 <augur> anything interesting going on lately
05:43:52 <cpressey> augur: SPOLGRIFIC
05:44:00 <augur> wossit
05:44:01 <pikhq> Each bit of the digital audio drives a seperate speaker. The LSB drives a very small one, and the size of speakers doubles for each next bit.
05:44:15 <cpressey> pikhq: Cute!
05:44:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:44:54 -!- augur has joined.
05:45:07 <oerjan> pikhq: :D
05:45:19 <pikhq> For 16-bit audio reproduction, you need 16 seperate speakers... Starting with a 0.5 cm² driver would mean you would need a 3.2m² speaker system per channel.
05:45:42 <pikhq> Somewhat impractical, sure, but hey.
05:45:47 <cpressey> pikhq: but i would bet the fidelity is totally worth it.
05:45:51 <pikhq> It's a digital speaker, and the term digital actually applies.
05:46:04 <cpressey> well, maybe not.  but... well, i dunno.
05:46:36 <cpressey> no, i am guessing it would be.
05:47:13 <oerjan> wouldn't that put a lot of stress on the highest bit speaker
05:47:19 <cpressey> driving all kinds of frequencies through 2 or 3 speakers, versus 16, each taking care of a relatively small slice
05:47:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Not really. Each speaker takes a different *volume*, not frequency.
05:47:55 <Gregor> pikhq: If ... whoah ... if ... omg ...
05:48:07 <pikhq> Which is why you double the size of the speakers as you go up.
05:48:12 <Gregor> pikhq: If you actually did that, then moved those speakers away from each other.
05:48:12 <Gregor> WHOAAAH
05:48:21 <cpressey> hey, maybe the world IS still going.
05:48:26 <pikhq> The only problem is that they need to run ultrasonically to avoid introducing *audible* artifacts.
05:48:27 <oerjan> pikhq: well yeah but it would have to change _very_ fast every time the total volume passed the 2^15 mark
05:48:32 <cpressey> (you see, i had half given up by now)
05:48:38 <pikhq> Oh, and they're expensive.
05:49:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, as a function of the audio frequency.
05:49:32 <oerjan> i guess if they make them they have to work
05:50:26 <cpressey> oerjan: uh well.  for physical objects, yes
05:50:57 <cpressey> (i imagine the 2^16TWEETER is very small and delicate)
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05:52:44 <cpressey> the "if they made it, it has to work" does not in any way apply to processes that people come up with
05:52:50 <cpressey> because OMG THE PAIN, you have NO IDEA
05:54:41 -!- myndzi has joined.
05:55:29 <augur> myndzi: \o/
05:55:30 <myndzi>         |
05:55:30 <myndzi>         |\
05:55:36 <oerjan> nonsense! now just let me finish this vacuum energy extractor and coffee maker i've designed.
05:55:50 <oerjan> (note: not actually the case)
05:57:31 <cpressey> err well "business" or "logistics" or "engineering" processes, anyway.
05:58:59 <cpressey> "
05:59:24 <cpressey> "Idea: Dynamically generate source code in C within the context of a Python or Ruby interpreter, allowing app to be written using Python or Ruby abstractions but automatically generating, compiling C at runtime"
05:59:29 <cpressey> sooooo 2008
06:00:19 <cpressey> ok um internet generation span might be shrinking below ambitious-project-comes-to-fruition threshhold, danger will robinson
06:00:55 <cpressey> ack "Day changed to 09 Oct 2010"
06:01:13 <cpressey> now everything i've just said is YESTERDAY'S NEWS
06:02:41 <cpressey> ack, and i was going to work on my BOT tonight, too.
06:03:40 <cpressey> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
06:04:08 <pikhq> cpressey: I especially like the U+F06F.
06:06:22 <cpressey> pikhq: ???  http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/f06f/fontsupport.htm  Each one of those fonts renders it differently!
06:06:39 <cpressey> I am scared.
06:08:00 <cpressey> "U+F06F is not a valid unicode character"
06:08:37 <Gregor> Life is good within the BMP.
06:08:41 <Gregor> Do not leave the BMP.
06:09:08 <Gregor> If you leave the BMP, life is bad and they hate humens because they're from outer space and science.
06:09:55 <cpressey> Gregor: I take it you are *not* talking about Window BitMaPs.
06:09:58 <pikhq> Gregor: You must be a language implementor.
06:10:20 <pikhq> (most high-level languages for GOD KNOWS WHAT REASON handle UTF-8. But only the BMP.)
06:10:36 <pikhq> (Or, more bizarre, UTF-8. But with the UTF-16 surrogates. WHY GOD WHY)
06:11:22 <cpressey> pikhq: I do not understand any of it, except that you can sometimes bribe programs into making pretty symbols.
06:11:45 <pikhq> cpressey: Educate yourself on Unicode.
06:12:20 <pikhq> cpressey: And when you start thinking it seems slightly complex, educate yourself on the other character encoding standards.
06:12:43 <cpressey> pikhq: What's there to learn?  I mean... no, I don't know what I mean.
06:12:49 <pikhq> At this point, I will be required to keep you away from weaponry for a few weeks, because you will be liable to wipe off a few nations.
06:13:36 <cpressey> Well see -- I am sort of preemptively at the point of "ooh, that ==> me ==> weaponry; best to go around it on tiptoe."
06:13:41 <Gregor> pikhq: Shall I point out the fact that Unicode is not a character encoding standard? :P
06:14:05 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
06:14:12 <pikhq> Gregor: The Unicode Standard actually includes character encoding schemes. The Unicode Transformation Formats.
06:14:20 <Gregor> Bah foo
06:14:27 <Gregor> Nobody uses "Unicode" to mean UTF!
06:14:28 <Gregor> NO ONE
06:14:47 <pikhq> Except sometimes the set of UTFs.
06:14:52 <pikhq> :)
06:14:56 <Gregor> NO ONE
06:15:09 <cpressey> I know that (sigh.  SIGH.) Python is fairly painless about "Hey!  You said <gnarly symbol> in the program.  You get <gnarly symbol> in memory (let's pretend, anyway.)  And you get <gnarly symbol> on output.  If you've set the env var correctly.  And you're running a sophisticated enough terminal.  So!  That's that."
06:15:37 <pikhq> cpressey: Python fucks up its Unicode support outside of the BMP.
06:15:56 <cpressey> pikhq: perhaps I could downgrade "fairly" to "tolerably".
06:16:00 <cpressey> I mean, alternatives: Perl.
06:16:02 <Gregor> I wonder if the BMP-dependence has something to do with support for non-Unicode character sets ...
06:16:16 <cpressey> Ruby.  (actually, i don't know how well Ruby does it.)(
06:16:30 <pikhq> Gregor: Nope.
06:16:59 <cpressey> Haskell: there is a UTF library which, my impression was, is tolerable, if you have it installed, dear god the packaging system well anyway
06:17:17 <pikhq> cpressey: GHC 6.12 has it "just work".
06:17:28 <oerjan> !haskell maxBound :: Char
06:17:35 * Rugxulo doesn't know what you're all talking about
06:17:43 <cpressey> pikhq: ah, I am currently at 6.8.something.
06:17:52 <oerjan> EgoBot: wake up!
06:17:55 <pikhq> Before that, it used Unicode strings internally but its IO routines assumed Windows-1252.
06:18:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, the BMP-dependence has something to do with broken handling of UTF-16.
06:18:34 <oerjan> !echo hi
06:18:51 <cpressey> Rugxulo: what's up?
06:18:52 <oerjan> Gregor: dead as a doornail
06:18:54 <pikhq> Gregor: They use UTF-16 internally. And then go on to assume that 2 octets = 1 Unicode codepoint.
06:18:56 <Gregor> Patience, it's creaky :P
06:19:10 <Gregor> pikhq: Ohhhhhhh. Of course. So stupid.
06:19:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Which is absolutely completely and utterly wrong.
06:19:16 <cpressey> codu.org = 386 DLX with 16M RAM
06:19:26 <Gregor> cpressey: Don't I wish
06:19:32 <Gregor> Money doesn't grow on trees!
06:20:20 <oerjan> the aztecs had it _so_ much easier with money
06:20:34 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:20:43 <Gregor> Hyuk
06:20:50 <oerjan> Gregor: DEAD AS A DOORNAIL, I SAID
06:20:53 -!- EgoBot has joined.
06:21:01 <oerjan> !haskell maxBound :: Char
06:21:05 <EgoBot> '\1114111'
06:21:06 <pikhq> Oh, and Java uses "Modified UTF-8". Which is UTF-8 with *surrogate pairs* and encodes U+0 as 0xC0 0x80.
06:21:26 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:21:33 <pikhq> Oh, so does Tcl.
06:21:41 <Gregor> Modified: For flavor!
06:21:41 <pikhq> For *external data*.
06:21:53 <pikhq> Surrogate pairs. WHY OH WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT YOU MORONS
06:22:37 <pikhq> I'm going to blame whoever invented surrogate pairs instead of just deprecating UCS-2, mmkay?
06:22:58 <Rugxulo> codu.org ???
06:23:07 <Gregor> codu.org solves all problems.
06:23:11 <Gregor> codu.org is the King.
06:23:14 <Gregor> codu.org is The One.
06:23:18 <Rugxulo> wait, I thought UTF-16 *was* two bytes per code point    o_O
06:23:46 <pikhq> Rugxulo: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO AND DID I MENTION NO
06:23:46 <Gregor> Rugxulo: It is within the BMP, but Unicode extends up to ... 21 bits?
06:23:47 <Rugxulo> what exactly are you arguing about, inferior Unicode support for various languages??
06:24:07 <pikhq> Rugxulo: UTF-16 is two or four bytes per code point.
06:24:32 <Rugxulo> hmmm, I am confused, there are too many variants
06:24:38 <Rugxulo> UCS-4 vs. UTF-16 ???
06:24:49 <cpressey> HOT DAMN.  The midwest is the birthplace of Dungeons & Dragons.  Gary Gygax was born in Chicago and lived in Lake Geneva, WI, most of his life.
06:24:56 <Gregor> UCS-4 is "write out 32-bit integers"
06:24:59 <pikhq> UCS-4, AKA UTF-32, is 4 bytes per code point. Always.
06:25:16 <Gregor> UCS-4 could also be called int * :P
06:25:19 <Rugxulo> heh, this is so boringly technical ... seriously, guys, do any of you even speak / write any languages outside of the BMP ???
06:25:42 <Gregor> I don't speak/write any languages outside of ASCII.
06:25:43 <pikhq> Rugxulo: はい、日本語で話す。
06:25:55 <pikhq> Gregor: Dude, English doesn't fit in ASCII.
06:25:59 <Rugxulo> doesn't count if you don't know what it means   ;-)
06:26:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Naïve simpleton.
06:26:12 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't use diaeresis marks or ligatures!
06:26:18 <Rugxulo> who does?  :-P
06:26:26 <Gregor> Everyone on #esoteric ! Including me.
06:26:27 <Rugxulo> besides, I think "naive" is a French loan word
06:26:39 <Gregor> So? It still has a diaeresis mark.
06:26:44 <Rugxulo> nope, Befunge-93 is blissfully ignorant of non-ASCII   ;-)
06:26:49 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yeah, but the diaeresis is due to English orthography.
06:26:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I speak Japanese. CJK is most of the excuse for Unicode. :)
06:26:55 <cpressey> Asciilish spoken here!
06:26:59 <Rugxulo> which nobody uses
06:27:12 <pikhq> Recently, maybe.
06:27:31 <Gregor> "Naive" is pronounced like "knave", "naïve" is pronounced like, well, "naïve"
06:27:35 <Rugxulo> pikhq, so what's the problem? Python, Perl, Java etc. all suck?
06:27:51 <Rugxulo> no, knave is pronounced like knave   ;-)
06:27:56 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Java is at least handling Unicode, just in a somewhat stupid format.
06:28:00 <Rugxulo> naive is commonly spelled without special diacritics
06:28:14 <Gregor> Rugxulo: I'm being a sarcastic nitwit :P
06:28:24 <Rugxulo> esp. 'cause no dern Americans, dang it, give a crap   ;-)
06:28:33 <pikhq> Python is just *fucking retarded*.
06:29:52 <cpressey> pikhq: In its Unicode handling only, or does that extend to, say, its approach to variable scoping? :D
06:30:05 <pikhq> cpressey: I make no judgements about the rest of it ATM.
06:30:13 <cpressey> pikhq: I hear ya.
06:30:26 <Gregor> Its variable scoping couldn't be worse than LISP Classique, BASIC or shell.
06:30:36 <pikhq> But its handling of Unicode is more braindead than 30 year old UNIX programs that are perfectly happy so long as the string ends with 0x00.
06:31:15 <cpressey> u'' is just another crazy "hope it works" thing to throw on the fire, along with '', "", r'', r"", """""", r""""""
06:31:34 <Gregor> Actually PHP's handling of Unicode is pretty pragmatic. In that it's exactly as supportive of Unicode as C is: You get bytes, and if you want those to be in a format, you do that yourself.
06:31:59 <cpressey> and apparently Guido took a year to put Unicode into the language.  A year.
06:31:59 <Gregor> (Where "yourself" really means "with libraries")
06:32:25 <Rugxulo> 2.0 was the first with Unicode, and that was ages ago (right?)
06:33:12 <Rugxulo> even 2.x is only guaranteed to be maintained for a few years (until 3.x kicks in ... though no mainstream Linux includes it yet, AFAIR)
06:33:45 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Gentoo has both 2.x and 3.x installed side-by-side.
06:33:52 <Gregor> s/includes it/includes it as \/usr\/bin\/python/
06:34:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Not by default, no.
06:34:20 <cpressey> "This Unicode module provides Unicode::String and Unicode::Character implemented by pure ruby based on iconv."
06:34:27 <cpressey> I see something like that -> I worry.
06:34:29 <cpressey> Should I?
06:34:46 <pikhq> Gregor: BTW: s|includes it|includes it as /usr/bin/python| you can use any delimiter.
06:34:59 <Gregor> pikhq: Using delimiters other than / is for PUSSIES.
06:35:08 <pikhq> cpressey: "based on iconv" is hopeful.
06:35:14 <Rugxulo> heheheh, no, sometimes it's much easier to read
06:35:15 <pikhq> iconv does all character sets correctly.
06:35:30 <cpressey> pikhq: Really?  OK, that is good to hear
06:36:00 <cpressey> Oh, other pet peeves of mine:
06:36:08 <cpressey> /usr/bin/python
06:36:10 <pikhq> Only thing more pedantic is ICU.
06:36:12 <cpressey> /usr/bin/lua
06:36:15 <cpressey> /usr/bin/ruby
06:36:16 <cpressey> great.
06:36:23 <Gregor> /usr/bin/env python
06:36:25 <cpressey> what version of the languages do you guys interpret?
06:36:30 <cpressey> "The latest"?
06:36:32 <cpressey> fantastic
06:36:55 <cpressey> /usr/bin/env python, even better.  setting myself for a path injection exploit
06:37:28 <Gregor> It's not an exploit if the user can run your program ...
06:37:39 <Gregor> They could just run it as .../whatever/python yourthing.py   anyway
06:38:02 <Gregor> It's only an exploit if the user can set PATH but not run arbitrary binaries, which is a bizarre situation.
06:38:07 <pikhq> cpressey: If you've got a malicious python injected into your path you're already fucked.
06:38:34 <pikhq> Especially since that could be anything else injected as well.
06:38:41 <pikhq> (say, ls?)
06:39:20 <Rugxulo> "the latest" ... I don't understand, you mean you don't like having only one implementation?? or just the constantly moving target?
06:40:16 <cpressey> well, the env thing might be a bit paranoid on my part, i admit.  still -- i like to know WHICH binary it's going to run...
06:40:43 <Rugxulo> they really are between a rock and a hard place ... wanting to abandon 2.x but can't force people
06:40:56 <cpressey> as for "the latest" -- I wrote my script for some version of the language -- can I not say "please interpret it with this version of the language"?
06:41:17 <Gregor> cpressey: Anyway, your versioned shebang idea is about as good an idea as symbol versioning in libc.
06:41:19 <Gregor> Only worse.
06:41:30 <Gregor> (And symbol versioning in libc is a friggin' terrible idea)
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06:41:59 <Rugxulo> Perl has "require 5.005" or something, right?
06:42:02 <cpressey> Gregor: it could be an argument.  like /usr/bin/foo --gte 5.0 --lt 6.0
06:42:12 <cpressey> Rugxulo: Perl does have that.
06:42:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Minor issue — people are morons.
06:42:28 <Gregor> cpressey: That would be tolerable I spose.
06:42:42 <Rugxulo> I'm sure there's some way to detect at runtime the appropriate version, even if it's a lame workaround
06:43:11 <pikhq> Tcl's actually got something vaguely reasonable. "package require Tcl 8.5"
06:43:13 <Rugxulo> what sucks is they implicitly seem to blame end users for not upgrading to 3.x
06:43:16 <cpressey> well, for that matter, an interpreter could interpret multiple languages.  /usr/bin/mysuperwow --lua --version 5.1.2
06:43:23 <pikhq> Voila, you've stated that your program is expecting Tcl 8.5.
06:43:29 <Rugxulo> sure, if they were standardized ... but they aren't
06:43:47 <Rugxulo> you need an ISO language then   ;-)    which will of course be horribly bastardized and shunned completely by everyone
06:43:57 <Gregor> JavaScript! (Well, ECMA)
06:44:10 <Rugxulo> ha, the only name worse than JavaScript is ECMAscript, sheesh!!
06:44:29 <cpressey> ECMAScript sounds like something you need a prescription for, yes.
06:44:35 <pikhq> Gregor: C is an ISO standard.
06:44:45 <Rugxulo> "EczemaScript ... try it today"
06:45:03 <pikhq> ISO-9899:1999
06:45:11 <Rugxulo> right, and you can test against __STDC__ (I think)
06:45:35 <cpressey> Pascal, Eiffel, Ada also have standards.  But Perl and Python and Ruby probably never will.
06:45:45 <Rugxulo> even REXX supports "parse version" to detect itself
06:45:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Perl 6 has a standard and no primary implementation.
06:46:05 <cpressey> pikhq: OK well Perl 6 is a bit of a freak.
06:46:07 <Rugxulo> Befunge doesn't, but I wrote my own lame-o program to test that at runtime
06:46:20 <Rugxulo> Perl 6 isn't even finalized
06:46:35 <cpressey> Perl 6 is, uh, MACHOWARE
06:46:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Okay, okay, provisional standard.
06:46:36 <Rugxulo> it's been in the works for quite a while, but at least Rakudo Star is semi-close to a stable release
06:47:07 <Rugxulo> PUGS is (I think?) abandoned
06:47:49 <Gregor> JavaScript gets no love :P
06:47:59 <cpressey> Still, my point was: there is a cultural divide here; Python and Ruby and such things don't NEED standards, thankyouverymuch.
06:48:23 <cpressey> Of course, I say this now, and tomorrow, someone is going to invent a standards track for Python.
06:48:24 <pikhq> Nor does Ruby need a good implementation.
06:48:25 <pikhq> :)
06:49:20 <cpressey> Ruby would be yet another obscure experimental gnarly language, were it not for Killer App Mr. Rails.
06:49:32 <cpressey> Of course, I say this now...
06:49:33 <pikhq> Rails sucks worse than Ruby.
06:49:50 <cpressey> pikhq: But the demo!
06:50:18 <cpressey> (The sound of a decision being made on a questionable basis)
06:50:34 <Rugxulo> you need some form of compatibility or else it's one big nightmare to maintain anything
06:50:37 <cpressey> Anyway, Django.  Nuff said.
06:50:42 <Rugxulo> maybe not standard per se, but something!
06:51:06 <pikhq> I have a simple policy for web frameworks. It must be at least as good as CGI in C.
06:51:09 <Rugxulo> every point release in Ruby seems to break something (at least in theory)
06:51:21 <pikhq> (this is a fairly simple lower bound, but *things fail at it*)
06:51:37 <cpressey> Rugxulo: A de facto "only" implementation, is usually what.
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06:51:59 <Rugxulo> which is dumb, IMHO
06:52:10 <cpressey> Rugxulo: I'm of that school of thought as well.
06:54:26 <Rugxulo> everything only gets more complicated, more bloated, never slimmer (except Oberon)
06:54:43 <Rugxulo> and even there, he seemed to almost remove too much   :-P
06:55:40 <pikhq> Remember kids: the backspace key is the most productive key on the keyboard.
06:56:01 <cpressey> AHHHHHHHHH
06:57:17 <Rugxulo> ?
06:57:21 <Rugxulo> ^?
06:57:46 <cpressey> trying to figure out Lua's unicode support (It... doesn't have any.)
06:58:45 <pikhq> Which means that it's halfway to UTF-8 support. :P
06:58:48 <Rugxulo> Lua is extremely minimal in some ways
06:58:58 <Rugxulo> it's not 10 MB Bzip's for a reason!!
07:00:22 * pikhq should sleep
07:00:27 <pikhq> For the next... 12 hours.
07:00:48 <Rugxulo> bah, it's only 1am here   ;-)
07:01:34 <pikhq> SLEEP DEPRIVATION SUCKS
07:01:37 <pikhq> GOOD NIGHT
07:01:45 <pikhq> オヤスミ！
07:02:00 <pikhq> (OYASUMI!)
07:05:08 <Rugxulo> sushi yoshi
07:05:25 <Rugxulo> tamagotchi matsumoto shigeru
07:05:33 <Rugxulo> hyundai toyota mitsubishi
07:06:33 <Rugxulo> BTW, who was it that was LLVM obsessed? fizzie??
07:06:48 <Rugxulo> somebody whined about a computed goto bug ... I assume that was fixed in recent release??
07:08:54 <Gregor> Vorpal, cpressey, pikhq, whoever: http://codu.org/tmp/zee2-2010-10-09.ogg zee2, now with FLAVOR! (actually I think I made this one worse ... )
07:11:07 <Gregor> (This one suffers most from the "disproportionately good piano soundfont" problem, so I had to do some tricks to make the piano less different, but I think that made things all wonky)
07:12:31 <cpressey> Rugxulo: you're in my timezone!
07:12:43 <Rugxulo> CST?
07:12:53 <cpressey> yes
07:12:56 <cpressey> I'm in Chicago
07:13:15 <Rugxulo> I'm a bit further south than you though
07:13:53 <Rugxulo> so the pizza's not as good   ;-)
07:17:58 <Rugxulo> "24 hours Gregor Richards Changed to GPL" ... heh
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07:18:09 <Rugxulo> good, don't let MS "EEE" your ZEE (or would it be ZEEE?)
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07:33:16 <Rugxulo> BTW, I read Herr Wirth call Lisp "esoteric" somewhere ... surely he didn't mean it in the literal sense that we know of   ;-)
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07:38:03 <cpressey> Probably not.  People call (parts of) Perl and Haskell "esoteric" all the time...
07:38:12 <cpressey> storkbot: Hi.
07:38:12 <storkbot> cpressey: Meh.
07:38:19 <cpressey> storkbot: @foo = 99
07:38:19 <storkbot> cpressey: @foo set to 99.
07:38:27 <cpressey> storkbot: print [@foo]
07:38:27 <storkbot> cpressey: 99
07:38:36 <cpressey> AND SO IT BEGINS
07:38:39 <cpressey> but I must sleep.
07:38:42 <cpressey> Good night
07:41:13 <Rugxulo> nitey nite
07:41:45 <Rugxulo> don't let the compiler bugs byte
07:54:07 <GreaseMonkey> is that ruby?
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08:01:47 * Rugxulo shrugs
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09:04:26 <cheater00> what are you basing any of this on???
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09:41:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, nice music!
09:45:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, a bit repetitive at times though? Probably fits the intended use of it though.
09:49:15 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how tricky it would be to generate the effects of a binaural recording on a computer? Perhaps on the fly. Would be interesting for 3D FPS games
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10:01:22 <Vorpal> hm seems it has been done to some degree in EAX and similar stuff
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10:47:36 <olsner> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function
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12:26:58 <Vorpal> olsner, indeed found that a while after I asked
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13:05:19 <nooga> guys
13:05:30 <nooga> what were those postulates of nakamura
13:05:34 <nooga> or something like that
13:05:47 <nooga> with 'specialization' stuff
13:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No idea.
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13:28:30 <nooga> there was somethink like statement that one could specialize an interpreter and obtain compiler
13:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> What, you mean use the SBCL model of compilation?
13:44:24 <nooga> yeah
13:44:45 <nooga> but there was this japanese surname and cool explanation with pictures
13:44:52 <nooga> with tokens and meat mincers
13:49:26 <cpressey> sounds cool
13:49:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? what is the SBCL model?
13:49:45 <cpressey> olsner: I read that as "heat-related transfer function" and was like What?
13:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, just that functions etc. are compiled at runtime.
13:52:32 <Phantom_Hoover> And nothing is interpreted.
13:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Eval works by compiling a lambda and calling it IIRC.
13:53:08 <cpressey> So, like Factor, except in Lisp.
13:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably.
13:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know Factor.
13:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: if can be defined in Lisp using only lambdas and macros.
13:54:35 <cpressey> nooga: You *may* be thinking of "partial evaluation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation
13:54:59 <cpressey> Someone named Yoshihiko Futamura did significant work on it.
13:56:24 <cpressey> (and no it is not Ruby but GreaseMonkey isn't here for me to inform anyway)
13:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "Yoshihiko Futurama" was what I immediately read that as.
14:02:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm
14:02:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought sbcl could compile statically as well?
14:02:23 <Vorpal> maybe I misremember
14:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, "static compilation" is a rather misfitting concept in Lisp.
14:03:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well. mostly because you can redefine a top level function anywhere
14:03:53 <Vorpal> still, you could do it by using a lookup table for those
14:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, exactly, the compiler needs to be available at all times.
14:04:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not really, I think you could compile all code blocks, then have a function name → code block lookup table that could be changed at runtime
14:04:48 <Vorpal> would be quite a pain though
14:04:55 <Vorpal> and probably would slow everything down a lot
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14:05:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, iirc there is some scheme R4RS-minus-breaking-static-compilation implementation. Highly optimising, meant for number crushing
14:05:44 <Vorpal> crunching*
14:05:46 <Vorpal> forgot the name of it
14:05:53 <Vorpal> ask alise, he told me about it
14:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you cannot do static compilation in Lisp, even with painful hacks.
14:07:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider (eval `(defun foo () ,(read *stdin*))
14:09:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I think that one didn't allow eval
14:09:34 <Vorpal> which makes it a whole lot easier
14:09:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Scheme doesn't define an eval IIRC.
14:09:49 <Vorpal> hm indeed
14:10:05 <Vorpal> scheme allows (define + -) or such though
14:10:19 <Vorpal> which this implementation did not of course
14:17:58 <cpressey> Scheme exists in part because it does not define eval
14:18:06 <cpressey> Otherwise it would be JAL
14:18:12 <cpressey> (Just Another Lisp)
14:19:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Why isn't it without eval?
14:19:44 <cpressey> "Because it's *Scheme*"
14:20:01 <cpressey> the distinction is less artificial somehow
14:25:12 <cpressey> storkbot: @topic=assignment
14:25:13 <storkbot> cpressey: @topic set to assignment.
14:25:20 <cpressey> storkbot: help [@topic]
14:25:20 <storkbot> cpressey: @a=1 [server-scope assignment]
14:26:22 <cpressey> storkbot: @m=3
14:26:23 <storkbot> cpressey: @m set to 3.
14:26:29 <cpressey> storkbot: print [@m] [@m]
14:26:29 <storkbot> cpressey: 3 [@m]
14:30:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, what language?
14:30:50 <Vorpal> storkbot, hi
14:30:50 <storkbot> Vorpal: Meh.
14:30:57 <Vorpal> storkbot: help
14:30:57 <storkbot> Vorpal: Help is available for: assignment print
14:31:00 <Vorpal> storkbot: help print
14:31:00 <storkbot> Vorpal: print [@a] [send contents of @a to stdout]
14:31:05 <Vorpal> storkbot: print foo
14:31:05 <storkbot> Vorpal: foo
14:31:08 <Vorpal> storkbot: print @foo
14:31:09 <storkbot> Vorpal: @foo
14:31:12 <Vorpal> storkbot: print @a
14:31:13 <storkbot> Vorpal: @a
14:31:17 <Vorpal> uhu
14:31:29 <Vorpal> storkbot: print [@foo]
14:31:29 <storkbot> Vorpal: 99
14:31:32 <Vorpal> storkbot: print [@jashdjas]
14:31:33 <storkbot> Vorpal:
14:31:35 <Vorpal> ah
14:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> storkbot, whither storkbot?
14:33:06 <storkbot> Phantom_Hoover: Meh.
14:35:04 <cpressey> Vorpal: I'm making the language up as I go along
14:37:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, interesting approach.
14:39:01 <cpressey> the idea is sort of that the language and the IRC protocl overlap
14:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> storkbot, what manner of man are you?
14:39:15 <storkbot> Phantom_Hoover: Meh.
14:39:48 <cpressey> also, implemented in lua, with parsing implemented with lua pattern matching.  real professional-like.
14:42:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, heh
14:43:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, so CTCP ACTION will have some special meaning?
14:44:16 <cpressey> it might!
14:45:05 <cpressey> i think i want to prevent it from being programmed to send absolutely arbitrary irc commands, though
14:45:42 <cpressey> too easy to make botloops etc
14:47:10 <Vorpal> storkbot, print a\nb
14:47:10 <storkbot> Vorpal: a\nb
14:47:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, how does one escape a newline in a string?
14:47:28 <Vorpal> storkbot, print foo\nQUIT
14:47:29 <storkbot> Vorpal: foo\nQUIT
14:47:30 <cpressey> one doesn't.  yet, anyway
14:47:33 <Vorpal> is what I wnat to do :P
14:47:36 <Vorpal> want*
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15:17:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I was further considering Sierpiński numbers, and I realised that the trit-based scheme I had was /precisely/ equivalent to n-coin Hanoi.
15:22:55 <cpressey> I'm used to them being called rings.
15:23:02 <cpressey> Or discs.
15:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look at Mr Pressey with his fancy /rings/ for Hanoi.
15:24:06 <cpressey> Top hit for "n-coin Hanoi" is this Forth program: http://christophe.lavarenne.free.fr/ff/hanoi
15:24:12 <cpressey> *Google hit
15:25:27 <cpressey> "Use: to move one coin between two stacks, enter the name of the third stack;
15:25:33 <cpressey> how very forthish
15:34:56 <nooga>  
15:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover>  
15:36:41 <cpressey>                                                            .
15:41:06 <nooga> ÷  WHAT I JUST DID?
15:41:22 <nooga> i don't remember posting null string
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15:47:07 <alise> 21:42:55 <cpressey> "oh, you WANT this?  well, let's start making it"
15:47:07 <alise> 21:44:01 <pikhq> Each bit of the digital audio drives a seperate speaker. The LSB drives a very small one, and the size of speakers doubles for each next bit.
15:47:11 <alise> are they any good, though?
15:47:21 <alise> 21:45:19 <pikhq> For 16-bit audio reproduction, you need 16 seperate speakers... Starting with a 0.5 cm² driver would mean you would need a 3.2m² speaker system per channel.
15:47:22 <alise> right :P
15:47:44 <alise> 21:48:12 <Gregor> pikhq: If you actually did that, then moved those speakers away from each other.
15:47:45 <alise> YES
15:47:51 <alise> Just arrange them randomly around the room
15:51:37 <alise> 22:25:19 <Rugxulo> heh, this is so boringly technical ... seriously, guys, do any of you even speak / write any languages outside of the BMP ???
15:51:55 <alise> entrant in my Most Xenophobic Comment of the Year award
15:53:54 -!- storkbot has joined.
15:53:56 <Phantom_Hoover> BMP?
15:56:05 <alise> google it :P
15:56:07 <alise> 22:34:20 <cpressey> "This Unicode module provides Unicode::String and Unicode::Character implemented by pure ruby based on iconv."
15:56:07 <alise> 22:34:27 <cpressey> I see something like that -> I worry.
15:56:07 <alise> 22:34:29 <cpressey> Should I?
15:56:10 <alise> well.
15:56:14 <alise> ruby has native unicode support since 1.9
15:56:16 <alise> of a sort
15:56:26 <alise> so you shouldn't need that, if it's a third-party lib
15:57:21 <alise> 22:42:02 <cpressey> Gregor: it could be an argument.  like /usr/bin/foo --gte 5.0 --lt 6.0
15:57:25 <alise> unfortunately there's a limit to shebangs
15:57:39 <alise> i think you'd get anywhere from --gte to --gte 5.0 being actually passed there
15:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Google gives no hint as to what "BMP" means in that contexy.
15:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> *xt
15:57:48 <alise> not sure though; definitely not the whole thing
15:57:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: bmp unicode
15:58:58 <alise> 22:48:24 <pikhq> Nor does Ruby need a good implementation.
15:58:59 <alise> 22:48:25 <pikhq> :)
15:59:01 <alise> YARV is... decent
15:59:06 <alise> faster than python iirc
15:59:26 <alise> 22:49:33 <pikhq> Rails sucks worse than Ruby.
15:59:26 <alise> the Merb team took over the Rails team, so Rails 3 will be technically better, if not DHH himself ;)
15:59:36 <alise> 22:50:37 <cpressey> Anyway, Django.  Nuff said.
15:59:37 <alise> no.
15:59:40 <alise> cpressey: no.
16:01:20 <alise> 05:28:30 <nooga> there was somethink like statement that one could specialize an interpreter and obtain compiler
16:01:20 <alise> 05:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> What, you mean use the SBCL model of compilation?
16:01:20 <alise> no
16:01:23 <alise> nooga: i know what you are talking about
16:01:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that is not what SBCL does
16:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't it?
16:02:07 <cpressey> alise: nooga was talking about partial evaluation i'm pretty sure
16:02:12 <alise> no
16:02:13 <alise> sort of
16:02:17 <alise> i know what he is talking about
16:02:20 <alise> and have read a lot on the matter
16:02:25 <alise> there are indeed such postulates
16:02:33 <cpressey> not Futurama's postulates?
16:02:34 <alise> nooga: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/ <-- this guy did a lot on it a while back, search the archives
16:02:39 <alise> no
16:02:43 <alise> well
16:02:46 <alise> it sounds like that, yeah
16:03:01 <alise> but i don't recall the exact name
16:03:27 <nooga> alise: thx
16:04:26 <alise> i swear i will find those postulates :D
16:04:26 <cpressey> Futamura only has projections, not postulates, it would sem
16:04:28 <cpressey> *seem
16:04:57 <alise> THAT'S IT
16:05:05 <alise> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation#Futamura_projections
16:05:15 <alise> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/?s=futamura
16:05:38 <cpressey> so, yes: alise: nooga was talking about partial evaluation i'm pretty sure
16:05:45 <alise> well, it is
16:05:48 <alise> but it's not entirely that
16:05:49 <alise> it's specialisation
16:05:51 <nooga> alise: thx!
16:05:56 <nooga> interesting blog btw
16:06:43 <cpressey> nooga: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
16:06:48 <cpressey> the diagrams of which you speak?
16:06:55 <nooga> yepp
16:06:58 <nooga> thx guys
16:07:11 <alise> meanwhile, luke palmer's music: http://hubrisarts.com/luke/Adagio.mp3
16:07:22 <nooga> i wanted to show this to my friend
16:07:27 <alise> nooga: his blog is awesome, disregard the personal whining
16:07:31 <alise> the tech stuff is great
16:07:49 <alise> nooga: he has some actual work on specialising interpreters and stuff
16:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The sheer size of Unicode amazes me...
16:08:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Planes 3-13 are unassigned.
16:08:59 <alise> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html?showComment=1241544840000#c4193054871836213800 btw
16:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> > 11 * (2 ^ 16)
16:09:20 <alise> you mean ** iirc
16:09:22 <alise> maybe not
16:09:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no lambdabot
16:09:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you'll have to ask for it again
16:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
16:10:38 <alise> "Guy Steele said..."
16:10:43 <alise> from that sigfpe blog post
16:10:54 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the graph of 4-tower Hanoi looks like.
16:12:32 <alise> 06:09:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Scheme doesn't define an eval IIRC.
16:12:33 <alise> 06:17:58 <cpressey> Scheme exists in part because it does not define eval
16:12:33 <alise> 06:18:06 <cpressey> Otherwise it would be JAL
16:12:33 <alise> 06:18:12 <cpressey> (Just Another Lisp)
16:12:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: cpressey: you are both full of crap
16:12:38 <alise> Scheme has EVAL
16:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I was under the impression that RnRS didn't have it at one point.
16:13:40 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: "Although the three-peg version has a simple recursive solution as outlined above, the optimal solution for the Tower of Hanoi problem with four pegs (called Reve's puzzle), let alone more pegs, is still an open problem."
16:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Well... An argument could be made that it would be the Sierpiński pyramid, but that's evidenceless speculation.
16:14:59 <cpressey> alise: oh, indeed it does, R5 at least
16:15:01 <alise> Okay, R3RS doesn't have eval.
16:15:06 <alise> @ignore todo
16:15:06 <alise> Comparison with the dialect used in [SICP]
16:15:06 <alise> Compare with S&ICP: simple renamings like @t{print}; easily
16:15:06 <alise> implemented things like @t{cons-stream}; more grave and controversial
16:15:06 <alise> omissions like @t{eval} and @t{make-envi@-ron@-ment}.
16:15:06 <alise> @end ignore
16:15:25 <alise> or r4rs
16:15:29 <alise> but apparently things had it anyway
16:15:34 <alise> things = all things basically
16:16:35 * Phantom_Hoover doesn't have eval.
16:17:16 <cpressey> At the very least I've always perceived the Scheme community to be relatively eval-hostile.
16:19:06 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect the presence of the word "optimal" there implies that there are multiple solutions when you have four pegs.
16:19:46 <cpressey> Oh wait, that may not matter for you
16:19:58 <cpressey> It's just a graph of all moves
16:20:04 <cpressey> That's decidable
16:20:17 <cpressey> ....tkwim
16:20:23 <cpressey> *y
16:27:51 <alise> twok
16:28:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I propose we name the Sierpinski sections.
16:28:16 <alise> Up, left, and right.
16:28:19 <alise> or top.
16:28:21 <alise> Or up.
16:28:23 <alise> Yes, up.
16:28:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how is that equivalent to hanoi?
16:28:39 <nooga> ooh
16:29:10 <alise> nooga: wut
16:32:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover:
16:32:45 <alise> centre :: Path
16:32:45 <alise> centre = U:L:R:centre
16:32:47 <alise> what point ist his?
16:32:48 <alise> *is this?
16:32:51 <alise> it's not actually the centre
16:35:09 <cpressey> I'm sorry, Mr Steele, pictures of pictures of things are isomorphic, for our purposes, to pictures of things
16:35:37 <cpressey> alise: it is the centre.  just not the TWO DIMENSIONAL centre.
16:35:52 <alise> wat.
16:35:54 <cpressey> it is the three points on middle of the the inside of U, L, and R
16:36:00 <cpressey> IS MY CLAIM
16:36:10 <alise> hmm right i can see what it is
16:36:17 <alise> you know the left one inside the upper one?
16:36:18 <alise> of the whole thing
16:36:21 <alise> it's at the rightmost edge of that
16:36:28 <cpressey> except it's not three points, it's one... fractal point.
16:36:32 <alise> infinitesimally close to the hueg no-point space in the middle
16:36:32 <alise> i think
16:38:30 <alise> 05:56:24 <cpressey> (and no it is not Ruby but GreaseMonkey isn't here for me to inform anyway)
16:38:30 <alise> wut
16:40:41 <cpressey> alise: GreaseMonkey thought storkbot (nee mzstorkipiwanbot) was running Ruby
16:41:52 <alise> ah
16:41:55 <cpressey> anyway I don't see why Pic (in the comments of sigfpe's Futamura article) isn't a comonad; given a machine that turns a's into b's, and a picture of an a, we can build an a, feed it to the machine, get a b, and take a picture of it.
16:42:00 <pikhq> Hmm. Should I give up on ddrescue or let this keep going?
16:42:27 <cpressey> I must have missed something
16:42:46 <cpressey> Oh yeah, no a -> Pic a
16:42:58 <cpressey> So no taking a picture of b
16:44:01 <alise> pikhq: for what?
16:44:31 <cpressey> storkbot: ~/c=help
16:44:31 <storkbot> cpressey: ~/c set to help.
16:44:43 <cpressey> storkbot: ~/t=assignment
16:44:43 <storkbot> cpressey: ~/t set to assignment.
16:44:48 <alise> storkbot: ~/c
16:44:48 <storkbot> alise: I have no idea what you're talking about.
16:44:51 <alise> racist
16:44:53 <alise> :|
16:45:05 <cpressey> storkbot: [~/c] [~/t]
16:45:06 <storkbot> cpressey: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1.  Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1.
16:45:35 <alise> this language is crazy.
16:45:45 <cheater00> alise: what are you basing any of this on???
16:46:01 <cpressey> cheater00: didn't you ask that last night?
16:46:29 <cheater00> cpressey: "didn't you" is relative
16:48:00 <cpressey> cheater00: that's... uh
16:48:16 <cpressey> cheater00: you're prompting me to ask what "any of this" refers to
16:49:01 <cheater00> cpressey: :)
16:49:04 <cpressey> alise: thank you, by the way
16:49:35 <cpressey> storkbot: goto goto goto print hi
16:49:35 <storkbot> cpressey: hi
16:50:31 <alise> storkbot: goto
16:50:31 <storkbot> alise: That's wonderful for you!
16:50:35 <alise> storkbot: goto dengo
16:50:35 <storkbot> alise: I disagree!
16:50:44 <alise> storkbot: goto goto goto goto goto goat
16:50:44 <storkbot> alise: That's wonderful for you!
16:50:48 <alise> LANGUAGE SUCKS
16:50:49 <pikhq> alise: CD
16:51:14 <pikhq> The only real argument for keeping it going is "well, it's not like *I* need to do anything about it."
16:51:16 <alise> pikhq: something you can torrent?
16:51:30 <pikhq> Probably.
16:52:29 <cpressey> storkbot: damn, do you not syntax error normally ever now?
16:52:29 <storkbot> cpressey: I disagree!
16:57:17 <alise> pikhq: check you can, do so, evaporate CD, inhale
16:57:25 <alise> consume content while high on COMPACT DISC
16:57:36 <pikhq> "720x400" Why would you do that to a 16:9 anamorphic DVD?
17:00:54 <alise> pikhq: I wonder if Usenet has any better shit than this torrent crap. (It may be faster, but... expiry and stuff.)
17:01:04 <alise> Shitty crap crap shit.
17:01:55 <alise> pikhq: So anyway: should I try and find that good 95?
17:02:02 <pikhq> alise: Please do so.
17:02:23 <pikhq> I shall find some coffee.
17:02:31 <alise> pikhq: http://www.torrentz.com/5051d8aebaeb47e223869d656a83d07041adefc7 Your job is to figure out what PS means, and if it means it's worth downloading or not. :P
17:04:17 <pikhq> Pashto.
17:04:37 <pikhq> An Indo-Iranian language; one of the two official languages of Afghanistan.
17:04:49 <cpressey> pikhq: That's a damned fine idea.
17:04:52 <cpressey> The coffee, I mean.
17:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what were you saying about Sierpiński stuff?
17:05:20 <cpressey> But I guess Pasto is an acceptable idea as well.
17:05:24 <cpressey> *Pashto
17:05:34 <pikhq> Okay, no, that can't be it.
17:05:47 <pikhq> No Pashto localisation of ANY version of Windows.
17:05:57 <alise> http://xkcd.com/95/
17:06:08 <alise> (it's so terrible for an early comic but it's so funny...)
17:06:11 <alise> and i have no idea why
17:06:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, well
17:06:37 <alise> data Section = Up | Left | Right
17:06:37 <alise> data Path = [Section]
17:06:40 <pikhq> DEAR GOD BROWSERS WHY DO YOU HAVE KEY COMBOS THAT KILL EVERYTHING
17:06:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover:
17:06:56 <alise> centre :: Path
17:06:56 <alise> centre = U:L:R:centr
17:06:59 <alise> *centre
17:07:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Where's dat
17:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It spirals, presumably to a fixed point in the top triangle.
17:07:30 <alise> It seems so.
17:07:38 * alise renames to "foo"
17:07:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now we just have to write a program to plot these points. aieee.
17:08:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The origin is orig = Up : orig in my scheme.
17:08:10 <alise> mine too
17:08:12 <alise> U:topE
17:08:17 <alise> i also have left and right E
17:08:32 <alise> anyway, if we say up = 0, left = 1, and right = 2, and it's represented as 1/n... no that doesn't work because of 0
17:08:38 <alise> but at the same time we can't use up=0 and no 1/n beacuse then
17:08:42 <alise> *because
17:08:43 <alise> 0000n = n
17:08:44 <alise> grumble
17:08:48 <alise> this is the problem with this stuff
17:08:50 <alise> you need a different representation
17:09:42 <alise> xkcdsucks is over
17:11:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh wait i have it
17:11:48 <alise> 0.[the infinite trinary string]
17:11:52 <cpressey> oh yeah, it is in the top triangle.
17:11:58 <alise> obviously
17:12:01 <alise> it starts with up :P
17:12:03 <alise> so if up=0, left=1, right=1
17:12:05 <alise> then this spiral path is
17:12:12 <alise> 0.012012012012012012...
17:12:42 <alise> which, -- and let's see if i can get wolfram alpha to understand that --
17:12:44 <alise> should be something in decimal
17:12:46 <cpressey> i keep thinking this is the chaos game
17:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it can also be extended to infinite fractal space.
17:13:39 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:14:05 <cpressey> rewriting storkbot's language to be even stupider
17:14:15 <alise> "sum n=2/3 to inf, (1*3^-(3n)) + (2*3^-(3n+1))"
17:14:16 <alise> mwahahaha
17:14:25 <alise> in decimal, it's
17:14:39 <alise> 0.1923076923....stuff
17:14:55 <alise> in binnyree:
17:15:05 <alise> 0.0011000100111011000100111011000100111011000100111011000100111011...
17:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Other things this method can be generalised to: getting a nice R^n → R bijection.
17:15:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now, coordinate 1/pi!
17:15:36 <alise> 0.02212100...
17:15:37 <alise> so
17:15:42 <alise> up right right left right left up up
17:16:04 <alise> not seeing a particularly interesting coordinate there :D
17:16:13 <cpressey> wait
17:16:25 <cpressey> so which point is 0
17:16:31 <alise> cpressey: there is no such point
17:16:36 <cpressey> 0.00000000.... ?
17:16:36 <alise> all points are infinite paths
17:16:38 <alise> 0 = 0.000000000000000...
17:16:41 <alise> = the topmost point
17:16:43 <alise> i.e. the tip
17:16:47 <alise> topE :: Path
17:16:47 <alise> topE = U:topE
17:16:56 <cpressey> ok
17:17:21 <alise> not that hard to make a program to output this, if it's at a certain pixel size there's a point where you won't be able to follow the path further and get any more detail, since you're at the pixel level
17:17:28 <alise> output the point on a rendered triangle that is
17:17:38 <alise> could even have a zoom :)
17:17:43 <cpressey> so any finite path is *not* a point on the gasket
17:17:43 <alise> but, lazy
17:17:57 <cpressey> (i knew that)
17:18:20 <cpressey> but all the finite paths do refer to points on the plane
17:18:28 <cpressey> well, no
17:18:29 <cpressey> not points
17:18:34 <cpressey> triangular regions
17:18:39 <alise> cpressey: well, no, points
17:18:42 <alise> they're infinitely detailed
17:18:47 <alise> of course there ARE no points
17:18:48 <cpressey> alise: finite paths
17:18:50 <alise> but "in the limit", as they say
17:18:53 <cpressey> like U
17:18:54 <alise> cpressey: well yeah but we don't support them :)
17:18:59 <alise> because you can't distinguish 0.0 from 0.00 etc.
17:19:06 <alise> and besides, they're not terribly interesting
17:19:13 <alise> the infinite precision is what's interesting here
17:19:14 <cpressey> wait, yes you can: U and U,U
17:19:22 <alise> cpressey: but we're representing them as reals
17:19:25 <cpressey> they're well-defined, is all i was thinking
17:19:32 <alise> specifically, U->0, L->1, R->2, put 0. in front of them
17:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, coördinate pi!
17:19:36 <alise> treat as trinary
17:19:40 <alise> voila, everything in [0,1]
17:19:42 <alise> or is it (0,1)
17:19:43 <alise> i forget
17:19:46 <alise> well 0 is included
17:19:48 <alise> and 1 is two
17:19:50 <alise> *too
17:19:52 <alise> 0.222222222222...
17:19:57 <alise> leftmost is 1/2
17:20:11 <alise> so our coordinates are all in [0,1]
17:20:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, we precede it with 0. :P
17:20:34 <alise> because otherwise U:n would == n
17:20:35 <alise> because 0000n
17:20:38 <alise> = n
17:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you can do things before the decimal point as well.
17:21:57 <alise> not really
17:22:01 <alise> and i don't want to :)
17:22:08 <alise> [0,1] is the bestest
17:22:14 <alise> it's the abestosed
17:22:19 <alise> *asbestosed
17:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I was also thinking about arithmetic operations earlier.
17:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It involved Hanoi moves in a subtle fashion.
17:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem is that I do not know what this subtle fashion was.
17:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Or, indeed, is.
17:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I can use the quadtree analogy for the complexes to help...
17:30:07 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, view a complex as a point in [0,1]^2.
17:30:19 <alise> So...
17:30:28 <Phantom_Hoover> We divide [0,1]^2 into 4 quadrants.
17:31:19 <alise> oh wow, Insane Clown Posse are evangelical Christians
17:31:25 <alise> will the amusement ever end?
17:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> A number in it can hence be represented as a string of quaternary digits, each selecting a subquadrant.
17:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So 0.5+0.5i is therefore 0.2.
17:33:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *0.20000....
17:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> 0.5+0.5i = 1+i, hence 0.2+0.2 = 0.333333.... = 1.
17:34:48 <Phantom_Hoover> 0.1111111..... = 0.2, as well, which grates somewhat.
17:34:52 <alise> ...aww, the Guardian are inaccurate again.
17:34:57 <alise> They actually revealed that eight years ago.
17:35:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, Ronson's interview.
17:35:13 <cpressey> Juggalos for Jesus
17:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I laughed at the bit where they're all looking at someone attacking "Miracles" and the article says "Violent J suddenly looks at me suspiciously. The woman in the video is bespectacled and nerdy. I am bespectacled and nerdy. Could I have the same motives?"
17:36:43 <cpressey> OMG
17:36:54 <cpressey> I too am bespectacled and nerdy
17:37:01 <cpressey> Also, I hate journalists
17:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "'I don't know how magnets work either,' I say, to relieve his suspicions."
17:37:56 <alise> :D
17:38:07 <alise> please tell me that's real
17:38:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
17:38:19 <alise> also this is the article but the relevant "song" came out in 2002 so, yeah: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/09/insane-clown-posse-christians-god
17:38:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It was in this week's Weekend.
17:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> That is the article.
17:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I love Ronson's style with the crazy, since he's completely nonconfrontational, and as such they just make themselves look like even bigger idiots.
17:39:24 <alise> "Right now, they're gaining the trust of the people who think unscientifically. Then, they're going to reveal how magnets work."
17:39:38 <alise> --reddit
17:41:32 <alise> [["A college professor took two days out of her fucking life to specifically attack us," says Violent J. "Oh yeah, she had it all figured out."]]
17:41:33 <alise> :D
17:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> "Goths don't do anything in the UK. They're a harmless and essentially middle-class subculture." — Jon Ronson, elsewhere.
17:42:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Did you know: not a single critic likes Insane Clown Posse?
17:42:09 <alise> Like, seriously.
17:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I did.
17:42:13 <alise> Not a *single* critic.
17:42:21 <alise> There is nobody who is not a juggalo and likes them.
17:42:34 <alise> They can't even get a record label to tolerate them despite the gajillions of money they'd make! They have to self-release!
17:42:50 <alise> [[I figured most people would say, 'Wow, I didn't know Insane Clown Posse could be deep like that.']]
17:43:00 <alise> Fucking magnets, how deep is this?
17:43:07 <alise> ...not fucking magnets in that way.
17:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "I did think," I admit, "that fog constitutes quite a low threshold for miracles."
17:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fog?" Violent J says, surprised.
17:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well," I clarify, "I've lived around fog my whole life, so maybe I'm blasé."
17:43:35 <alise> :D
17:43:58 <alise> Brits, aren't they great?
17:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Suddenly he glances at me. The woman in the video is bespectacled and nerdy. I am bespectacled and nerdy. Might I have a similar motive?
17:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "I don't know how magnets work," I say, to put him at his ease.
17:44:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you quoted that seconds ago
17:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> The exact quote from that article.
17:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, that was from memory.
17:44:21 <alise> ah
17:44:21 <pikhq> Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't ICP specialise in sucking ass?
17:44:29 <alise> pikhq: Yes.
17:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, and fucking magnets.
17:44:34 <alise> They suck ass with a rota system.
17:44:40 <alise> To fit all the ass-sucking in.
17:45:01 <alise> "A giraffe is a fucking miracle. It has a dinosaur-like neck. It's yellow. Yeah, technically an elephant is not a miracle. Technically. They've been here for hundreds of years…"
17:45:04 <alise> this is my favourite thing ever
17:45:16 <alise> pikhq: ^^^
17:45:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I love that article so much.
17:45:22 <alise> IS THIS NOT THE BEST THING YOU HAVE EVER READ
17:45:25 <pikhq> They must also specialise in being stoned.
17:45:35 <pikhq> Cause that's the most high thing ever.
17:45:39 <alise> Well, they smoke in that article. Who knows *what* they're smoking.
17:45:50 <alise> pikhq: No, it's just the most ignorant-evangelical-Christian thing ever.
17:46:06 <alise> Apparently *99% of their albums pre-2002*, the ones in that series they did, carnival or whatever,
17:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well," Violent J says, "science is… we don't really… that's like…" He pauses. Then he waves his hands as if to say, "OK, an analogy": "If you're trying to fuck a girl, but her mom's home, fuck her mom! You understand? You want to fuck the girl, but her mom's home? Fuck the mom. See?"
17:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I look blankly at him. "You mean…"
17:46:09 <alise> was all a set-up
17:46:10 <alise> to get people
17:46:13 <alise> to believe in God
17:46:14 <pikhq> alise: High, ignorant-evangelical-Christian... Same results.
17:46:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What.
17:46:36 <alise> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
17:46:42 <alise> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
17:46:47 <alise> ...what???
17:46:50 <alise> pikhq: what ^
17:46:53 <alise> please decode
17:46:53 <alise> what
17:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it could conceivably be clever word play.
17:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> s/conc/inconc/
17:47:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: So, instead of fucking Feynman, we should fuck Jesus.
17:47:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, no, other way round..
17:47:27 <pikhq> GAY NECROPHILIA IS BETTER THAN JUST BEING GAY
17:47:30 <alise> Jesus is Feynman's mom?
17:47:36 <alise> THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
17:47:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Feynman is Jesus' mom?
17:47:59 <alise> jesus forgot to use immaculate contraception :|
17:48:03 <pikhq> THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
17:48:09 <alise> FEYNMAN IS JESUS?
17:48:13 <alise> THIS
17:48:13 <alise> EXPLAINS
17:48:15 <alise> EVERYTHING
17:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, Feynman is the Virgin Mary!
17:48:33 <pikhq> Who is also Jesus.
17:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!
17:48:34 <pikhq> And God.
17:48:46 <alise> The Father, the Feynman and the Holy Ghost.
17:49:00 <pikhq> :D
17:49:08 <alise> [[A fucking elephant is a miracle. If people can't see a fucking miracle in a fucking elephant, then life must suck for them, because an elephant is a fucking miracle. So is a giraffe.]]
17:49:10 <alise> this is just amazing
17:49:29 <alise> [[Violent J shakes his head sorrowfully. "Who looks at the stars at night and says, 'Oh, those are gaseous forms of plutonium'?" he says. "No! You look at the stars and you think, 'Those are beautiful.'"]]
17:49:34 <alise> Ah yes.
17:49:39 <alise> Gaseous forms of plutonium.
17:49:45 <alise> Pluto is made out of solid plutonium, obviously
17:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> That boy grew up to be Eminem and, incensed, he's been publicly deriding ICP ever since in lyrics such as, "ICP are overrated and hated because of their false identities".
17:50:33 <alise> You know what, Eminem is actually better than Insane Clown Posse.
17:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> C'est impossible!
17:50:55 <alise> No. Seriously. Think about it.
17:51:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> [["So all those unpleasant characters in the songs," I ask, "like the narrator in I Stuck Her With My Wang, they're examples of people you shouldn't be?"
17:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Huh?" Violent J says.
17:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well, it's very unpleasant," I say. "'I stuck her with my wang. She hit me in the balls. I grabbed her by her neck. And I bounced her off the walls. She said it was an accident and then apologised. But I still took my elbow and blackened both her eyes.' That's clearly a song about domestic violence. So your Christian message is... don't be like that man?"
17:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Huh?" Violent J repeats, mystified.
17:51:12 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a silence.
17:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "I Stuck Her With My Wang is funny," Violent J says. "Jokes. Jokes, man. Jokes. Jokes. Jokes. It's just a ridiculous scenario. Silly stories, man. Silly stories. What's she doing kicking him in the balls? We find it funny. But we're saying, while we're close, while we're hanging, hey, man, do you ever ask yourself what's in your riddle box? If you had to turn the crank today?"]]
17:51:15 <alise> Or, if you really need convincing, listen to some ICP.
17:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I had to post that whole conversation.
17:51:24 <alise> I Stuck Her With My Wang :D
17:51:45 <alise> what a great song title
17:51:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are doing science SO HARD right now! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:52:04 <alise> We are SO HARD doing science right now!
17:52:26 <Gregor> We are SO HARD doing science SO HARD right now!
17:52:34 <alise> [["Like Stonehenge and Easter Island," says Shaggy. "Nobody knows how that shit got there."]]
17:52:41 <nooga> hmhsouds like my gf
17:52:43 <alise> ALIENS
17:52:49 <nooga> just replace science with s...
17:53:13 <cpressey> fascinating
17:53:14 <nooga> hmh, sounds*
17:53:15 <alise> You know, I think if your girlfriend is getting hard you need to seriously ask her what genitalia she was born with.
17:53:27 <nooga> dumb
17:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Violent J turns to him and says, softly, "If we moved furniture for a living we'd have a bad back or bad knees. We think for a living. We try to create. We try to constantly think of cool ideas. And every once in a while there's a breakdown in the engine… I guess that's the price you pay."
17:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Shaggy nods quietly. "I get anxiety and shit a lot," he says. "And reading that stuff people write about us… It hurts."]]
17:53:59 <nooga> >:D
17:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I get ANXIETY AND SHIT!
17:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> [[He shoots me a defiant look and says, "You know Miracles? Let me tell you, if Alanis Morissette had done that fucking song everyone would have called it fucking genius."]]
17:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does Jon Ronson look so... sinister?
17:55:37 <alise> He can't be sinister, he's British.
17:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/mr_ronson.jpg Just http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/mr_ronson.jpg
17:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the EVIL in his eyes!
17:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> But he's also hilarious, so I won't hold it against him.
17:58:10 <cpressey> alise: FUCKIN' ALIENS
17:58:23 <alise> cpressey: How do they work?
17:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/aug/05/familyandrelationships.lifeandhealth is more of the same kind of thing.
17:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Ronson meets nutballs, doesn't tell them they're nutballs, they look like even bigger nutballs.
18:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The children nod. And the exercise in telepathy begins.
18:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> And it gives me no pleasure to say this, but blindfolded children immediately start walking into chairs, into pillars, into tables.]]
18:02:03 <cpressey> Right.
18:02:06 * Phantom_Hoover decides to watch the video from that ICP article.
18:03:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:04:22 <alise> pikhq: I may have just found a build of Windows Neptune.
18:04:55 <alise> pikhq: So, you know, if you want to see Windows Me reimplemented on top of Windows 2000...
18:05:45 <pikhq> alise: Wasn't Windows Neptune just the precursor to XP?
18:05:52 <alise> pikhq: Yes.
18:06:00 <alise> But:
18:06:00 <alise> In early 2000, Microsoft merged the team working on Neptune with that developing Windows Odyssey, the upgrade to Windows 2000 for business customers. The combined team worked on a new project codenamed Whistler,[2][3] which was released at the end of 2001 as Windows XP.[4][5] In the meantime, Microsoft released another home user DOS-based operating system called Windows Me.[3]
18:06:09 <alise> pikhq: tl;dr the teams merged.
18:06:13 <pikhq> Aaaah.
18:06:18 <cpressey> hahahaha
18:06:25 <alise> pikhq: Some screenshots of note:
18:06:26 <alise> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/screenshots/XP%20Neptune%20Build%205111/aneptunelogon.gif
18:06:29 <alise> http://nunney.me.uk/images/neptune/neptune_7.jpg
18:06:41 <alise> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/screenshots/XP%20Neptune%20Build%205111/zneptunebugreport.gif
18:07:23 <alise> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2534/4110046261_b2285e6e8b_o.png
18:07:33 <alise> pikhq: So, you know, if you want an ISO of that... :P
18:07:50 <pikhq> Meh.
18:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> An observation that turned out to be prophetic. "From the very beginning of our music, God is in there," Violent J says, "in hidden messages."
18:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "Can you give me some examples?" I ask.
18:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a small silence. He looks torn between revealing them or maintaining the mystery. He shoots Shaggy a glance.
18:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Riddle Box," he finally says.
18:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, what's up, motherfucker/This is Shaggs 2 Dope/Congratulating you on opening/the Riddlebox/It looks like you received your prize/The cost, what it cost, was your ASS,/bitchboy!/Hahahahah! — (The Riddle Box, 1995)
18:08:30 <pikhq> It uses so damned much memory to link Chrome.
18:09:25 <alise> "95-vista.iso", 7 gigs
18:09:26 <alise> do not want
18:09:46 <alise> Windows 95 FULL
18:09:46 <alise> WINDOWS 95 UPGRADE
18:09:46 <alise> WINDOWS 95 OSR2
18:09:53 <alise> if only it wasn't on a 2 gig file in .nrg format
18:10:50 <alise> pikhq: Okay: What about various versions of Chicago (95), Daytona (3.5), Georgia (ME), Memphis (98), Nashville (96!!!), Whistler (XP), Janus 3.1 *and* NT 5.0(!)?
18:11:18 <alise> Alas, though, no seeders :)
18:11:21 <pikhq> o.o
18:12:18 <alise> pikhq: http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/184957413/?tab=summary
18:13:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what have you written for the Sierpiński numbers so far?
18:13:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The structure and a few paths. It isn't difficult to plot a position to arbitrary accuracy, but I am lazy.
18:14:14 <alise> pikhq: BTW, did you like pre-2.0 Amarok?
18:14:19 <alise> Before they made it shitty.
18:14:28 <pikhq> It was rather nice.
18:14:32 <alise> pikhq: http://code.google.com/p/clementine-player/
18:14:36 <alise> pikhq: Amarok 1.4, for Qt 4.
18:14:40 <alise> Actively developed.
18:14:41 <pikhq> Tempting.
18:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, did you write the Real → Sierpiński injection?
18:14:48 <alise> Quod Libet is still probably better but *shrug*
18:14:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Umm, you can't really have reals in haskell.
18:15:01 <alise> I have:
18:15:02 <alise> data Section = U | L | R
18:15:02 <alise> data Path = [Section]
18:15:05 <alise> where Path is assumed to be finite
18:15:07 <alise> and that's close enough
18:15:15 <alise> to convert from a computable real to this:
18:15:19 <pikhq> s/in haskell/on a computer/
18:15:21 <alise> figure out the algorithm to produce the trinary digits
18:15:29 <alise> then 0 -> U
18:15:30 <alise> 1 -> L
18:15:31 <alise> 2 -> R
18:15:34 <alise> strip off the initial 0.
18:15:38 <alise> and you're done
18:15:44 <alise> so e.g.
18:15:45 <alise> foo :: Path
18:15:46 <alise> foo = U:L:R:foo
18:15:50 <alise> is 0.012012012012..._2
18:15:51 <alise> erm
18:15:51 <alise> _3
18:16:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's not the injection I had in mind.
18:16:17 <alise> So? It works perfectly, and is easy to construct paths with.
18:17:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I meant getting the path that leads to a point along an edge of the gasket that corresponds to the number in question.
18:17:21 <alise> pikhq: You know what? I'm going to write my own fucking music manager. And I might add video support after that, too.
18:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Huh?
18:18:04 <pikhq> alise: \o/
18:18:04 <myndzi>        |
18:18:05 <myndzi>        |\
18:18:24 <cpressey> so mainly it's just converting to trinary
18:18:41 <alise> cpressey: what i have is a representation of anything in [0,1] in trinary, yep
18:18:43 <alise> well, anything computable
18:18:50 <alise> 0 = U:0
18:18:52 <alise> 1 = R:1
18:18:57 <cpressey> doing mathematics SO HARD right now
18:18:59 <alise> (proof that 0.333..._3 = 1 :P)
18:19:08 <alise> pikhq: Say. Is there a GTK binding for Tcl that exposes a Tk-like API?
18:19:21 <pikhq> I don't know, but I hope so.
18:19:30 <pikhq> Tk has a great API, after all.
18:19:37 <alise> pikhq: TO THE TCL-WIKI-O-SCOPE!
18:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, 0.333333...? Surely 0.22222.....?
18:20:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: YES YES SHUT UP
18:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And 0.22222222.... isn't equal to 1 here, it's not on the real line.
18:21:11 <alise> Umm. It is equal to 1.
18:21:21 <alise> pikhq: TCL WIKI DOWN HALP
18:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 0.111111.... = 1. 0.222222.... isn't.
18:21:45 <alise> ...
18:21:49 <alise> 0.111111111111... = 1/2.
18:21:57 <alise> Ask Wolfram Alpha if you don't believe me.
18:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are you talking about normal trits on the reals?
18:22:14 <alise> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum+n%3D1+to+inf,+3^-n
18:22:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's *what my path is*, except not the reals, [0,1].
18:22:30 <alise> It is, literally, every (computable) element of [0,1].
18:22:44 <alise> it is [] and not () because x = R:x is equal to 1.
18:22:48 <alise> and x = U:x is equal to 0.
18:22:52 <alise> and x = L:x is equal to 1/2.
18:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I would have 1 = L:1.
18:23:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And fix (R:) would probably be a complex, for reasons complex.
18:23:55 <alise> You ... really don't understand how trinary works.
18:23:56 <alise> At all.
18:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes I do.
18:24:05 <alise> No.
18:24:07 <alise> No you don't.
18:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I agree that 0.22... = 1.
18:25:10 <alise> pikhq: Do you think it's worth having my player be a client to a music daemon I write? (mpd and xmms2 are insufficient in many ways)
18:25:15 <alise> That would allow nice plugin-y things.
18:27:02 <pikhq> alise: If you can write a music daemon well, then yeah.
18:27:13 <alise> pikhq: I can sure as hell flail around trying to.
18:27:32 <pikhq> \o/
18:28:02 <alise> pikhq: Behold the pure liquid insanity getting libavcodec and libao to talk to each other requires:
18:28:02 <alise> http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c
18:29:18 <pikhq> Mmmm, .name
18:29:29 <alise> pikhq: Grr, .name.
18:29:34 <Gregor> Anything that requires .name is already pretty insane :P
18:29:40 <alise> If you register first.last.name, that means you can never, ever acquire last.name.
18:29:43 <alise> In fact, nobody can!
18:29:46 <alise> YAY
18:29:51 <pikhq> alise: That's... Moronic.
18:29:52 <alise> Even if it expires.
18:30:17 <cpressey> also it implies that it is a website about a name
18:30:18 <pikhq> Anyways. I suspect that that is less insane than what it wraps. Sadly.
18:30:52 <pikhq> cpressey: TLDs don't work that way thank you.
18:31:15 <cpressey> pikhq: or located in a name
18:31:29 <pikhq> TLDs have no associated semantics.
18:31:43 <pikhq> Except what IANA declares.
18:31:45 <alise> pikhq: I know! How about I do everything else and you do the audio code.
18:32:04 <pikhq> alise: Whaaaaaa
18:32:08 <pikhq> And IANA declares that .name be for personal names.
18:32:11 <cpressey> pikhq: it's funnier if they do
18:32:59 <alise> pikhq: Yes
18:33:12 <pikhq> alise: But SOUND IS HARD
18:33:28 <pikhq> :P
18:33:34 <alise> pikhq: SO IS UI DESIGN AND I'M DOING THAT PART
18:33:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I got an ugly function working that kind of shows what I meant earlier.
18:34:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Okay.
18:34:04 <alise> Show?
18:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> toSierp x = let x' = x*2 in
18:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover>             if x' < 1 then T:(toSierp x') else L:(toSierp (x'-1))
18:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It takes a real and generates the corresponding location on the top-left side of the gasket.
18:35:05 <alise> I see.
18:35:08 <alise> wat
18:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that the stuff to work out the binary digits is horrible, don't mention it.
18:35:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you forgot U
18:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I made it "T".
18:35:43 <alise> Oh.
18:35:44 <alise> Where's R?
18:35:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's silly, up/left/right are directions
18:35:53 <alise> top isn't a direction!
18:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, true, but I view them as names for each section.
18:36:10 -!- storkbot has joined.
18:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather than as directions in a path.
18:37:14 <alise> pikhq: Now for the all-important decision; what language I'll use!
18:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And the reason R doesn't feature is because the function is meant to produce a location on the top-left edge.
18:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> So using the path system, it should approach that edge at each iteration.
18:38:46 <cpressey> storkbot: @r
18:38:47 <storkbot> cpressey: goto [@r]
18:38:52 <cpressey> storkbot: goto [@r]
18:38:52 <storkbot> cpressey: Out of stack space!  Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
18:40:27 <cpressey> storkbot: [@r]
18:40:28 <storkbot> cpressey: Out of stack space!  Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
18:42:49 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: so mainly it just needs to convert to trinary
18:43:04 <cpressey> format, if you like
18:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no, it actually does binary conversion.
18:43:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: because you've decided *part* of the gasket is good enough for you.
18:43:42 <cpressey> ?
18:43:57 <cpressey> I really am lost here.
18:44:00 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, in essence.
18:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Remember how this started.
18:44:33 <alise> cpressey: i think it's all he needs for hanoi or something
18:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Trying to work out what set could come between R and C, which I concluded would be Sierp.
18:44:51 <cpressey> Oh yes, that.
18:45:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Hanoi is just an incidental tool which aids perception.
18:45:08 <cpressey> If you are happy with it being 2/3 of Sierp, then by all means.
18:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no, it's equivalent to how R lies in C.
18:46:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: no, you are not happy?  or no, it is not Sierp?  or no, it is Sierp, but modified to be equivalent to how R lies in C, for a better sense of betweenness?
18:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover> You can do an R → Sierp bijection just as easily.
18:47:51 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It is a subset of Sierp that behaves precisely the same as the real interval [0,1]
18:48:57 <cpressey> ok
18:50:54 <cpressey> storkbot: @r=[~storkbot/BRA]@r[~storkbot/KET]
18:50:55 <storkbot> cpressey: [@r]
18:50:59 <cpressey> storkbot: @r
18:50:59 <storkbot> cpressey: [@r]
18:51:06 <cpressey> storkbot: [@r]
18:51:07 <storkbot> cpressey: ?SYNTAX ERROR
18:51:18 <cpressey> storkbot: print [@r]
18:51:18 <storkbot> cpressey: [@r]
18:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I vaguely hope that I can use it to get a sane definition of addition, but I'm not very confident.
18:51:31 <cpressey> so i do need the goto
18:52:39 <alise> pikhq: I need suggestions for my music software kthx
18:52:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I am hopeful.
18:53:04 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, there is no hop!
18:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Henry Freeman must give me hop!
18:57:01 <alise> proto-plan: cat all the half-life full-life consequences video chapters together, submit to festival
18:57:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Which festival?
18:57:45 <alise> pick one
18:58:09 -!- lament has joined.
18:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The fringe!
18:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> *Fringe
18:59:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I'll walk down the Royal Mile dressed as John Freeman and hand out leaflets to all of those irritating gits who hand out leaflets!
19:00:35 <alise> i was thinking cannes
19:01:18 <cpressey> Henry who?
19:01:33 <cpressey> Don't answer that.
19:03:14 <alise> cpressey: The main character of Halflife Fullife Consequences.
19:03:23 <alise> Sorry, *Halflife: Fullife Consequences
19:03:42 <alise> He lives up to his family name and faces FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES.
19:03:53 <alise> A literary masterpiece.
19:03:55 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, John Freeman is the main character.
19:04:16 <alise> oh right
19:04:18 <alise> henry is his brother
19:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Henry Freeman is his estranged son
19:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, Gordon Freeman is his brother.
19:04:30 <alise> er right
19:04:31 <Gregor> It truly is a literary masterpiece though.
19:04:33 <alise> PLOT SO COMPLEX
19:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But he's tragically killed by Final Boss.
19:04:47 <alise> Gregor: However, the movie adaption is one of the few that is better than the source material.
19:04:55 <Gregor> Who hates humens because he's from science and outer space.
19:04:57 <alise> Especially Free Man.
19:04:59 <alise> It is a completely new story.
19:05:09 <alise> The emotion in that... what, five minute fight scene.
19:05:12 <alise> It is immense.
19:05:29 * Phantom_Hoover will watch it all again.
19:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxyZaZlaOs
19:05:41 <alise> What we learn is that the only acceptable kind of science is the kind that makes guns
19:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Part 1!
19:06:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I totally think we should chop the title sequences off them all and put them into one video.
19:06:07 <alise> Ready for cinematic release!
19:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Aliens and monsters are attacking my place!
19:07:01 <alise> cpressey is sighing at our IMMATURITY right now :|
19:07:10 <alise> Man, I love how realistically that train falls.
19:07:17 <alise> It just sort of wriggles down off the bridge.
19:07:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Watch. From. The. Beginning.
19:07:39 <alise> I've already watched it all.
19:07:44 <alise> I'm just re-watching Free Man.
19:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not?
19:07:46 <alise> Because it's the best part.
19:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> BECAUSE YOU ARE HEADCRAB ZOMBIE
19:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The pants are dead!
19:09:20 <alise> I am still not sure what that Portal scene is all about.
19:09:30 <cheater00> alise: you have not answered my question
19:09:34 <alise> Or why making that shot flung John around the facility.
19:09:43 <alise> Or why he falls upwards.
19:10:15 <alise> "A rocket hit John Freeman but he got up"
19:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way John Freeman Googles to find out how to kill Next Boss..
19:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Gordon is zombie goast! The emotional torment!
19:16:31 <alise> Do we ever find out what Tobe has done?
19:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a debated point.
19:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What was John Freeman doing between the end of What has tobe done and the end of Hero Beggining?
19:20:27 <Gregor> Actually, I'm disappointed that the narrator didn't pronounce "Tobe" in "What has Tobe Done" as the name Tobe (short for Tobias)
19:20:30 <cpressey> So
19:20:49 <cpressey> oh n/m
19:21:05 <alise> Gregor: me too
19:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, we'll get back to science when we have faced FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES
19:21:14 <alise> I was like "YES THIS IS GOING TO BE HIL- darn"
19:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Mom has dead!
19:26:57 <cpressey> um
19:27:56 <cpressey> So, culture
19:27:58 <cpressey> yeah.
19:28:00 <alise> cpressey is TOO OLD FOR THIS
19:28:10 <cpressey> probably.
19:28:13 <cpressey> it is funny, but
19:28:23 <cpressey> it is terribly, terribly stupid.
19:28:28 <alise> Yes.
19:28:29 <alise> Yes it is.
19:28:51 <alise> Any questions?
19:29:00 <cpressey> No.  No questions.
19:29:03 <cpressey> CARY ON
19:29:10 <alise> What has Cary done?
19:35:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the statue of John Freeman at the end.
19:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Where did they steal that music from?
19:38:59 <cpressey> I have one question actually
19:39:11 <cpressey> No, I don't
19:41:15 <cpressey> No, I do.
19:41:38 <cpressey> The fanfiction came first and is unaffiliated with the video production, correct?
19:41:57 <Gregor> Yes
19:41:58 <cpressey> And the fanfiction was not, in fact, written in jest.
19:42:05 <Gregor> It was, in fact, written in jest.
19:42:08 <Gregor> Although nobody knew that at the time.
19:42:10 <cpressey> It was?
19:42:12 <Gregor> (Except the writer)
19:42:25 <cpressey> Ok
19:42:25 <Gregor> The writer turns out to be a super-brilliant goon.
19:47:18 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:47:29 <Gregor> "Agnoistrology – the method by which one may make predictions, give advice, and reveal the dynamics of human relationships without actually knowing anything (very similar to astrology but devoid of any pretense)."
19:50:30 <alise> Gregor: PLAY VAGRANT
19:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, where's the code?
19:50:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ~/Code/vagrant/vagrant.py
19:50:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: do you want the latest version? :P
19:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes.
19:51:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you plan to modify it -- i.e. should I bother pasting debug.py too?
19:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
19:51:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1209960.txt?key=vditdcajejmoyploowa
19:52:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Note: This code is short enough that it is, in fact, physically impossible for it to be a game.
19:52:12 <alise> You are recommended to suspend disbelief to induce the notion that you are playing a game.
19:52:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
19:52:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because look at it!
19:52:30 <alise> Even *I'm* not sure where the game logic went.
19:52:40 <alise> Gotta be somewhere, right?
19:53:03 <Gregor> 'twould be nice if I had any clue what any of this is :P
19:53:10 <alise> Gregor: It's a roguelike. And it's IMPOSSIBLY SHORT
19:53:20 <Gregor> I mean the characters.
19:53:25 <alise> Gregor: % is food
19:53:27 <alise> ! is potion
19:53:30 <alise> Q is enemy that isn't coded yet
19:53:31 <alise> # is wall
19:53:33 <alise> $ is money
19:53:35 <Gregor> Oh, I should stop eating poison.
19:53:42 <alise> S: is satiation in the status bar
19:53:45 <alise> Gregor: You can't help it.
19:53:48 <alise> Gregor: You will now hallucinate for N turns.
19:54:00 <alise> Gregor: You may want to press a key like space to wait them out, if your S: satiation is high enough.
19:54:06 -!- sftp has joined.
19:54:09 <alise> yubn work for diagonal movement, btw.
19:54:24 <alise> Controls:
19:54:27 <alise> hjkl, yuvn - move
19:54:36 <Gregor> Oh, I had just been using hjkl :P
19:54:40 <alise> q - quaff potion (how much hp you have to move to hp meter is in parens after HP, helps hallucination a bit)
19:54:55 <alise> enter - dismiss message; anything dismisses message if your cursor moves after one, i.e. a blocking message
19:55:05 <alise> but enter dismisses messages that don't block, so you can see the status-line
19:55:12 <alise> this also re-hallucinates, which is a bug but too hard to fix
19:55:16 <alise> (lets you see what everything is if you hold it down)
19:55:20 <alise> any other key skips a turn
19:55:37 <Gregor> 'snot much of a dungeon :P
19:55:40 <alise> S goes to zero, you lose 25 per turn
19:55:48 <alise> 25 hp that is
19:55:56 <alise> you can survive this with a bunch of potions beforehand and close food
19:56:05 <alise> Gregor: Right now, the recommended playstyle is to rack up as much cash as you can.
19:56:10 <alise> Also, who says it's a dungeon?
19:56:15 <alise> It's ~PROCEDURALLY GENERATED~
19:56:38 <Gregor> Yeah, but your mom is procedurally generated.
19:56:40 <alise> Gregor: And when it comes down to it, I mean, man, this thing is 1421 fuckin' bytes of code.
19:56:50 <alise> (not counting ending newline, which does nothing)
19:57:08 <alise> Gregor: Oh, and hallucinating is SWEET.
19:57:14 <Gregor> It's very pretty code too.
19:57:23 <alise> Yes. You are obviously serious.
19:57:31 <alise> X-=(X-x)/17;Y-=(Y-y)/5
19:57:34 <alise> This used to be four lines of if statements.
19:57:40 <alise> It is the scrolling code.
19:59:00 <alise> Gregor: Oh man.
19:59:03 <alise>  if U:U%=r(85,115)
19:59:11 <alise> I just realised the HORRIBLE POSSIBILITIES that has.
19:59:24 <Gregor> I don't even know wtf that means :P
19:59:31 <alise> Gregor: Hallucination count; %= is modulo.
19:59:35 <alise> r is random integer between.
19:59:38 <Gregor> Ah
19:59:39 <Gregor> Got it
19:59:39 <alise> So that's what times hallucination out.
19:59:44 <alise> Say it's 115 for ages, because of wtf. And you get to 115, right, and it goes to modulo it
19:59:48 <alise> And it ends up 85
19:59:54 <alise> 115 mod 85 = 30
19:59:59 <alise> So you START OVER FROM ALMOST SCRATCH
20:00:01 <alise> (+30 turns)
20:00:04 <alise> And other evil like that
20:00:09 <alise> That must be why hallu can last SO FRIKKIN' LONG
20:01:54 <alise>  if U>r(85,115):U=0;Q('You feel a lot better now.')
20:01:57 <alise> Problem solved.
20:02:05 <alise> Now only 1417 bytes!
20:02:21 <alise> Gregor: BTW, good strategy: Get a shitload of potions, q them all up.
20:02:31 <alise> Then if you run out of foods, just scramble for the nearest foods.
20:03:01 <alise> Also, you can't get HP or S above 300, so don't try.
20:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, I've got the first bit of the R → Sierp injection you were thinking of.
20:03:57 <alise> You were thinking of, you mean.
20:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> No, your one was the trinary one.
20:04:22 <alise> HP:308       HOW
20:04:37 <alise> OHHHH
20:04:41 <alise> Wait what?
20:06:04 <alise> Gregor: Interesting detail: Potions can only help with hallucination if you have less than 300 HP :P
20:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> biToSierp :: (Fractional a, Ord a) => a -> FracPart
20:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> biToSierp x = let x' = x*3 in
20:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover>                   if x' < 1 then T:(biToSierp x') else if x' >= 1 && x' < 2 then L:(biToSierp (x'-1)) else R:(biToSierp (x'-2))
20:06:07 <alise> Well, now, at least.
20:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, ignore the type signature.
20:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Note the ugliness of the trinariser!
20:07:20 <alise> you do realise you need infinite input numbers for that?
20:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Infinite input numbers?
20:08:07 <alise> Gregor: SO WHADDYA THINK OF MY GAME
20:08:19 <Gregor> alise: It, like you, is made of fail.
20:08:26 <Gregor> OHHHH BURN
20:08:34 * Phantom_Hoover → food
20:09:00 <alise> Gregor: I'd like to see you do better in the same number of bytes P:P
20:09:01 <alise> *:P
20:09:35 <Gregor> Let's see you do an MMO roguelike in no more than double the number of bytes!
20:09:44 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:10:08 -!- tombom has quit (Changing host).
20:10:08 -!- tombom has joined.
20:11:30 <alise> Gregor: MMO ROGUELIKES DON'T WORK DAMMIT
20:11:43 <alise> Unless anyone who makes a turn has to wait for EVERYONE ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE to make a turn.
20:11:45 <Gregor> Neither does your mom, and yet here we are.
20:14:22 <alise> pikhq: POLYGLOT TCL STARPACK
20:14:42 <alise> It is a valid PE/Windows, ELF/Linux, and Mach-O/OS X executable file.
20:19:40 <pikhq> alise: o.O
20:19:47 <alise> pikhq: Or rather: it ought to be
20:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Back.
20:20:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what were you saying about infinite numbers?
20:20:41 <alise> as in
20:20:50 <alise> if you only have paths that are like
20:20:51 <alise> 0.123
20:20:54 <alise> then they all implicitly end with zeroes
20:20:59 <alise> meaning paths have to end in infinite ups
20:21:05 <alise> so you actually need a custom data structure to represent this
20:21:06 <alise> dfgk
20:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, why do you need a custom data structure?
20:21:40 <alise> ff
20:21:43 <alise> figure it out yourself
20:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Normal lazy lists work fine for the values I've tried.
20:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The issue is no different to any other decimal representation, really.
20:27:19 <alise> you had realfrac stuff
20:27:21 <alise> which is not sufficient
20:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> For what?
20:28:08 <cheater00> alise
20:28:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: for paths
20:28:20 <cheater00> i will give you $1000000000000000000000000000000 for the latest version of vagrant
20:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so should I use Rationals?
20:29:08 <Ilari> Same executable that is valid for all three? Must be quite creative...
20:29:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, you should use lists of a type with three elements
20:29:16 <alise> Ilari: it doesn't exist, it just should :)
20:29:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ...
20:29:24 <alise> we should have some sort of standardised multi-executable format
20:29:35 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> That's *exactly how I'm representing members of Sierp*.
20:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The realfrac stuff is just how I'm doing the tentative bijective things.
20:32:03 <alise> pikhq: Lame, there's no tclkit package in Ubuntu.
20:32:53 <cheater00> alise: stop being lame
20:35:12 <pikhq> alise: There wouldn't be.
20:35:34 <alise> pikhq: Why not.
20:35:48 <pikhq> ... It's a single file build of Tcl?
20:36:56 <alise> pikhq: And? :P
20:37:03 <alise> pikhq: Starkits use it.
20:38:00 <pikhq> ... Okay, good point.
20:43:51 <alise> pikhq: I AM TRYING TO TRY WIKIT HERE
20:43:55 <alise> HOW DO IT?
20:44:36 <pikhq> WIKIT THE WIDGET
20:45:45 <alise> pikhq: what
20:45:53 <pikhq> ... I got nothing.
20:48:42 <alise> pikhq: So I have to compile TclKit?
20:48:44 <alise> Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet
20:48:55 <pikhq> alise: Or just download it.
20:49:09 <alise> pikhq: oh; got a link?
20:49:32 <pikhq> http://www.equi4.com/tclkit/download.html
20:49:39 <alise> pikhq: [Information on this page needs refreshed, given that during 2007 the entire engine was replaced with wubwikit. ]
20:49:44 <alise> :|
20:50:50 <pikhq> Alternately http://www.equi4.com/wikis/equi4/218
20:51:39 <alise>  $ wget http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/tars/Makefile
20:51:39 <alise>     $ make
20:51:42 <alise> Pfft, way too difficult
20:51:47 <alise> make -f <(curl http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/tars/Makefile)
20:51:48 <alise> AM I RIGHT
20:52:31 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/tclkit$ make -f <(curl http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/tars/Makefile)
20:52:35 <alise> This *actually works*.
20:52:40 <alise> pikhq: ONE STEP COMPILE
20:54:12 <alise> pikhq: ADMIRE IT
20:54:29 <pikhq> alise: Nice.
20:54:47 <alise> The only way it could possibly be better is if it created its own temporary directory and then moved the final resulting binary to the current directory, meaning you would not have to create a new directory first to hold the temporary files.
20:55:21 <alise>     g++ -o kit kitInit.o pwb.o rec... FAILED:
20:55:21 <alise> Joy
20:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you have any thoughts on adding Sierps?
21:00:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
21:00:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it could be done by doing something carry-esque, but I'm not sure.
21:01:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:02:16 <alise> pikhq: How does one start Wikit's web server?
21:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem with visualising it is that there are points which can be reached by concatenation that aren't part of the gasket itself.
21:02:30 <alise> Or is it already running?
21:02:32 <alise> If so, where?
21:04:14 <pikhq> I dunno.
21:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Logically, TL + TL = L, for one thing.
21:06:05 <alise> pikhq: BTW, my music server -- I'm wondering what kind of API to expose for clients to connect to.
21:06:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And since I think it should be section-symmetric, TR + TR = £.
21:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> *R
21:06:16 <alise> pikhq: I'm thinkin' "just use proper, decent, simple RESTful HTTP".
21:06:24 <alise> Because why bother inventing a socket protocol
21:06:27 <alise> *protocol?
21:06:41 <cpressey> SOAP YOU MUST USE SOAP
21:06:50 <alise> WASH YOURSELF DOWN WITH SOAP, NEVER REST
21:06:52 <cpressey> SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP
21:06:53 <alise> SOAP YOURSELF FOREVER
21:07:26 <Gregor> Hot
21:07:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Drat.  I thought pound was new and exciting
21:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, it can be some cool extension to L.
21:08:46 <cpressey> alise: in case it was not obvious, SOAP is aaaaawful.
21:08:57 <alise> cpressey: I am well aware :)
21:09:03 <cpressey> good
21:09:22 <alise> cpressey: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/soap/simple
21:10:00 <cpressey> classic
21:10:12 <alise> you can't possibly have read it all in that time!
21:10:13 <alise> :P)
21:10:14 <alise> *:P
21:10:47 <cpressey> >_<
21:10:51 <cpressey> I have read it before.
21:10:58 <alise> Oh. Right :P
21:11:57 <cpressey> what IS new to me is that ESR has an entire HARMFUL domain
21:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, with the quaternary C thing, .01 + .01 = .111....
21:12:15 <cpressey> no wait
21:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wait.
21:12:17 <cpressey> that would be catb
21:12:19 <alise> cpressey: that's not esr
21:12:19 <cpressey> this is cat-v
21:12:24 <alise> cat-v is uriel
21:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> .01
21:12:26 <cpressey> subtle trickery!
21:12:34 <alise> angry libertarian plan-9 blowhard -- but fuzzy inside, supposedly
21:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> .01+.01=.1
21:12:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what's .01+0.2
21:13:06 <alise> or is there no 2
21:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I decree it to be .03
21:14:11 <alise> i thought this was trinary
21:14:15 <alise> oh, quaternary
21:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> That took me about 30 seconds of thinking.
21:14:23 <alise> what's .01+.03
21:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> .13
21:15:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I think.
21:15:44 <alise> .01+.13
21:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> .12, actually.
21:15:58 <alise> this does not look like addition to me
21:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's not conventional addition
21:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It is for binary R, but not for Sierp and C.
21:16:31 <alise> :P
21:17:16 <alise> pikhq: You -- design a decent query language.
21:19:26 <alise> pikhq: I am now running the tclkit server. Yay.
21:26:05 <alise> cpressey: why is lua naff?
21:27:10 <pikhq> Hah. To celebrate the 65th anniversary of the founding of the Worker's Party of Korea, North Korea is now on the Internet.
21:27:52 <cpressey> alise: what? is it?
21:27:56 <Gregor> pikhq: ...?
21:27:57 <alise> pikhq: Like, they have internet access??
21:27:58 <alise> Or a website?
21:28:02 <alise> They've always had a website.
21:28:04 <alise> cpressey: Err, yes?
21:28:05 <pikhq> alise: Internet access.
21:28:09 <alise> pikhq: Hah.
21:28:14 <alise> pikhq: Restricted to three people?
21:28:18 <pikhq> No.
21:28:21 <alise> wut
21:28:24 <alise> firewalled?
21:28:29 <Gregor> Restricted to three WEB SITES.
21:28:29 <pikhq> Probably.
21:28:35 <alise> cpressey: One-based array indexing, verbose control structures, metatable insanity, and lack of non-float numbers (iirc)
21:28:41 <pikhq> They're also running a TLD.
21:28:45 <pikhq> .kp
21:28:47 <alise> library is hopeless
21:28:53 <cpressey> alise: :(
21:29:04 <alise> WANT TO REGISTER .KP NOW
21:29:06 <alise> that is
21:29:09 <alise> a .kp domain
21:29:20 <pikhq> (it's been up for 3 years, but until now it was administered outside of North Korea, and only hosted sites outside of North Korea)
21:29:34 <alise> "Since Sept. 2010 the .kp ccTLD infrastructure is unreachable."
21:30:00 <pikhq> Today, they brought it up domestically.
21:30:04 <pikhq> Like, just now.
21:30:10 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_North_Korea
21:30:25 <pikhq> It's called "breaking news".
21:30:28 <alise> "Satellite Internet coverage from BGAN and Thuraya is available, offering download speeds up to 492 kbit/s and upload speeds of 400 kbit/s; however it would be extremely difficult to smuggle a satellite terminal into the country.[1] The one Internet cafe in Pyongyang uses a satellite Internet connection, as do some of the more upmarket hotels."
21:30:41 <alise> LOL:
21:30:45 <alise> [[In 2002, North Koreans, in collaboration with a South Korean company, started a gambling site targeting South Korean customers (online gambling being illegal in South Korea), but the site has since been closed down.[2]]]
21:31:07 <Gregor> lol
21:31:34 <pikhq> ... *There is no censorship on it*.
21:31:42 <cpressey> i don't mind the 1-based indexing, the control structures are at least proper words (not "elif" or "fi"), ignore metatables, and floats-only hurts very few programs and enables simplicity and smallness in implementation
21:33:28 <alise> pikhq: wat.
21:33:43 <alise> cpressey: okay, show me an http server in lua
21:35:05 <alise> pikhq: Have you ever played Canabalt?
21:35:59 <cpressey> alise: http://keplerproject.github.com/xavante/  is the "usual" one.  I last saw it when it was 1.x.. I don't know if they've improved it since then, or if it has gotten bad.
21:36:14 <alise> cpressey: I mean, a simple one.
21:36:16 <cheater00> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/09/insane-clown-posse-christians-god
21:36:20 <cheater00> alise is a juggalo.
21:36:40 <alise> pikhq: http://adamatomic.com/canabalt/
21:37:32 <pikhq> They went ahead and hooked their domestic intranet to the Internet.
21:37:40 <cpressey> alise: http://www.steve.org.uk/Software/lua-httpd/src/httpd.lua  ?  half of it is comments
21:37:44 <pikhq> Honest-to-god.
21:37:59 <pikhq> I give North Korea another year of existence.
21:38:02 <alise> pikhq: CANABALT
21:38:15 <alise> cpressey: lawl "mode: C++"
21:38:22 <alise> --  A simple HTTP server written in Lua, using the socket primitives
21:38:22 <alise> -- in 'libhttpd.so'.
21:38:27 <alise> WHY AREN'T THERE SOCKET PRIMITIVES IN THE STANDARD LIBRARY
21:38:49 <alise> cpressey: So, tell me why Lua is better than Io. :P
21:39:00 <cpressey> alise: BECAUSE THERE AREN'T EVEN FULL REGEXPS IN THE STANDARD LIBRARY
21:39:13 <cpressey> alise: Better than?
21:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, can you write a complex quaternisation function? I cannot muster the strength.
21:39:15 <cpressey> Ha.
21:39:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nothx
21:39:24 <alise> cpressey: what's that mean
21:41:38 <cpressey> it means, why should i spend my time defending Lua from your random criticisms and comparisons with other languages
21:43:32 <alise> cpressey: because I'm interested to know if Lua actually has any merit?
21:44:23 <cpressey> alise: merit is subjective
21:44:26 <cpressey> some people like it
21:44:34 <cpressey> some people have used it and continue to do so
21:45:25 <cpressey> if you don't think it has any merit, ... that's your perogative
21:47:25 <alise> cpressey: sheesh, i'm just asking for reasons why you like it as opposed to other things
21:47:32 <alise> it's not the inquisition
21:50:31 <cpressey> alise: Right now, I like it because it's not Python.
21:50:48 <Gregor> <cpressey> Same reason I like COBOL.
21:50:58 <alise> cpressey: Lawl
21:51:27 <alise> I have a feeling I'd dislike Lua for the same reasons I dislike Io, but amplified.
21:51:45 <Gregor> So, you'd like Lua SO LOUD right now.
21:51:48 <Gregor> Erm
21:51:49 <Gregor> dislike
21:52:34 -!- augur has joined.
21:53:55 <alise> Gregor: That meme is going to get SO OLD right now.
21:57:35 <alise> pikhq: Please convince me not to make a language. Oh god.
22:02:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:02:23 -!- augur has joined.
22:04:37 -!- flippo has quit (Quit: Reality reasserts itself sooner or later.).
22:07:08 <alise> coffeescript weirds me out
22:07:15 <alise> it's like someone took js and made it too sweet
22:07:19 <alise> and now it's bad if you're code-diabetic
22:08:03 <Gregor> ...
22:09:35 <alise> code diabetic is so a thing, Gregor
22:10:17 <pikhq> alise: You shouldn't make a language because you will then continue to make your own everything.
22:10:31 <pikhq> alise: And you won't get any of it done.
22:10:33 <alise> pikhq: Dude, I'll continue to do that anyway.
22:10:46 <alise> pikhq: Okay, then what language do I use? :P
22:10:59 <Gregor> Yeah, you'll become me.
22:11:02 <Gregor> That's totally a bad idea.
22:11:45 <pikhq> alise: Cheese.
22:11:55 <alise> pikhq: What.
22:11:57 <Gregor> alise: LOLCode
22:12:21 <alise> "cheese programming language"; third result is cpressey
22:12:26 <alise> http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html
22:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what makes a language sweet?
22:12:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows?
22:13:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, make Epigram better?
22:13:11 <alise> "This is a demonstration of how the Lua 5.0.2 interpreter can be embedded in a KLD (loadable kernel module for FreeBSD.) It isn't very useful by itself (and somewhat dangerous too, since an infinite loop in the Lua code would hang the machine,) but it shows off Lua's minimalism."
22:13:12 <alise> dear god.
22:13:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: epigram is not useful for actual programming in the next thirty years :P
22:13:34 <Gregor> That doesn't show off Lua's minimalism at all ...
22:13:52 <Gregor> There's very little limit to what you can put in a loadable module ...
22:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, why?
22:14:12 <alise> cpressey: what sucks about dragonfly again?
22:14:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fff there is not a one-irc-message reply to that at all
22:14:30 <alise> Gregor: it's because the code is small methinks
22:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how many IRC messages would it take?
22:14:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: seventy
22:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, sum up?
22:15:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: can't
22:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> At least as to why it can't be programmed in?
22:16:14 <alise> it can be
22:16:18 <alise> you just don't want to, for actual projects
22:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Whyyyyyyy?
22:17:25 <cpressey> alise: the installer
22:17:31 <alise> cpressey: i thought you wrote that
22:17:36 <cpressey> :D
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, why can't you write actual projects in Epigram?
22:18:01 <cpressey> how many dependent-typed languages are practicable at present, anyway?
22:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stop asking me the same question fifty goddamn times over!
22:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it Epigram itself, or dependently-typed languages in general?
22:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, 0. Maybe 1.
22:18:22 <alise> The latter, unless someone defies all my expectations in the future.
22:18:24 <alise> And I never said forever.
22:18:25 <alise> I said now.
22:18:32 <cpressey> Epigram(no), Adga(maybe) ?
22:18:39 <cpressey> *Agda
22:18:46 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Coq was the maybe, actually.
22:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Actual software has been written in extracted Coq. The same cannot be said for Agda.
22:19:09 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I always thought Coq was more of a prover than a language.  (I know, I know)
22:19:19 <alise> agda is more of a masturbation than a language
22:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's a perfectly nice experimental dependently-typed language (at least in theory).
22:20:03 <alise> Saving to: `dfly-x86_64-2.6.3_REL.iso.bz2'
22:20:04 <alise>  4% [>                                      ] 10,343,094   128K/s  eta 30m 4s
22:20:10 <alise> so slow. may claw own eyes out.
22:20:26 <alise> cpressey: rate feasibility of this idea: take dragonfly kernel, libc, basic userland, build distro on top
22:20:27 <cpressey> alise: PREPARE TO BE AWESOMED or something.  pretty sure there's a torrent somewhere actuallyu
22:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But between the idiots who think that it can actually be used to prove things and the awful abuse of Unicode and the instability it's not worked very well.
22:20:43 <alise> wonder if i want release or snapshot!
22:21:01 <cpressey> alise: you... want NetBSD
22:21:03 <cpressey> no
22:21:09 <cpressey> i dinna say that
22:21:15 <alise> cpressey: i tried netbsd
22:21:21 <cpressey> you want release
22:21:23 <alise> i don't believe a single program there was newer than five years old, and X didn't work.
22:21:28 <alise> :)
22:21:39 <cpressey> because you have no idea the hacking they do in the kernel
22:22:14 <cpressey> a snapshot would probably destroy your network card *from within your vm instance*
22:22:24 <alise> :D
22:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "_≟_ : Decidable {A = Char} _≡_" ← This is in Agda's definition for *Char*.
22:22:39 <alise> cpressey: would melding NetBSD's kernel with dragonfly's basic userland be possible?
22:22:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well uh, that's reasonable
22:23:01 <alise> if you ignore the unicode, it's just
22:23:14 <alise> is_eq : Decidable Char equal
22:23:15 <alise> i.e.
22:23:19 <alise> well, you know the rest
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, since when was equals-with-hook an oft-used symbol.
22:23:28 <alise> cpressey: nah, i can't find a torrent
22:23:30 <cpressey> alise: well, no, because the only places where df's userland differs significant from the others, iirc, is where it has df-specific syscalls etc
22:23:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's equals with ?
22:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> And my point is that the Unicode is pointlessly obfuscatory.
22:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it is.
22:23:44 <alise> cpressey: yeah but they have newer shit, most likely :)
22:23:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you'd hate mathematical notation
22:23:55 <alise> if you think *that's* bad
22:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I don't, really.
22:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> There are worse ones, though
22:25:00 <alise> cpressey: i just don't want to use the linux kernel :)
22:27:20 <Gregor> MINIX!
22:28:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:34 <alise> I swear that package management, configuration management and service management are all the same thing.
22:29:13 -!- wareya has joined.
22:29:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Do people actually write proofs of things in Agda?
22:29:31 <alise> No.
22:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Even Agdaers?
22:29:56 <alise> No.
22:30:04 <alise> Well --
22:30:05 <alise> yes.
22:30:09 <alise> But only as part of writing Agda libraries and the like.
22:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> What was that theorem with the completely crazy name?
22:30:54 <alise> Many.
22:31:04 <alise> Wow, bunzip2 is slow.
22:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> There aren't actually many theorems in the standard lib.
22:31:12 <pikhq> Yes. lzma is faster.
22:31:24 <alise> Can I get a progress report?
22:31:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:32:34 <alise> So...
22:32:52 <alise> cpressey: Which BSD kernel and libc/basic userland do you think is most liable for tracking in a distro? >_>
22:33:13 <alise> MAYBE DRAWIN
22:33:15 <alise> *DAWRIN
22:33:19 <alise> *DNIWAR
22:33:20 <alise> *DNIRAW
22:33:22 <alise> *DARWIN
22:33:26 <alise> *DARNIW
22:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> *DARNIT
22:33:51 <Gregor> Yeah, once PureDarwin exists, sometime in 2054 or so.
22:34:22 <alise> Gregor: Fuck that shit, OpenDarwin already existed and booted so it can be done from scratch.
22:34:35 <alise> I see no reason why I can't just start from the actual Darwin source tree. :P
22:35:35 <Gregor> Newer versions of Darwin have dependencies on components that are neither open source nor distributed separate from Mac OS X.
22:37:05 <alise> Gregor: So fork DarwIn! YAAAAY PRACTICAL
22:37:08 <alise> Also, such as?
22:37:24 <alise> http://7447233378926839072-a-puredarwin-org-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/puredarwin.org/puredarwin/welcome/macports_on_pd.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cq5T0oxzuthiQdPogaqT6mtYXq9GhIGWpl72eNj8j1006-kEE0sGJOES_62ghsZ79nYjq3zPB31pep_NV3ZBIRpZSDQEpMlm_xWOYL-LoIJtJgZHp_nSt3f5mTolN3VxbfVGNOmZUK1tSSnYrUdgf8sH-DBZEIoS4FmQ9a_yXmJ6yTkvz3K6uDvTDmecIGcOtNToc454YMvYUX_pZ1sZTuwXV-PEw%3D%3D&attredirects=0
22:37:25 <Gregor> Such as http://google.com/search?q=site:puredarwin.org+blockers
22:37:29 <alise> PureDarwin on real hardware
22:37:35 <alise> Running a GUI
22:37:40 <alise> Doesn't seem so blocked to me
22:37:47 <alise> With VNC, admittedly, but hey, it's XFCE.
22:37:49 <alise> And it runs MacPorts.
22:38:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:38:27 <alise> Darwin sucks, anyway.
22:38:43 <Gregor> Yes, yes it does :P
22:39:05 <Gregor> As it turns out, taking Mach and throwing a monolithic kernel on top of it, then declaring that you use a microkernel architecture, is a silly way to build an OS.
22:39:30 <Gregor> An OS with a binary format that trades a useful feature (TLS) for a useless feature (fat binaries)
22:39:38 <alise> It sucks how the current method of creating a BSD is basically "Fork. EVERYTHING!"
22:39:51 <Gregor> BSD is not Linux.
22:39:51 <alise> Gregor: TLS?
22:39:56 <alise> Indeed it isn't.
22:39:59 <Gregor> Thread-Local Storage
22:40:05 <alise> But is there something wrong in the idea of creating a BSD distribution?
22:40:14 <Gregor> Nope
22:40:16 <Gregor> Just cultural.
22:40:30 <alise> Then I say that that fact sucks.
22:40:37 <alise> PC-BSD is the only "BSD distro" I know of.
22:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Finland&diff=next&oldid=332117
22:40:51 <alise> And it's basically FreeBSD with a package manager and an installer.
22:41:03 <Gregor> There's Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-P
22:41:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, would you consider yourself a duck?
22:41:19 <alise> Yeah, but then you have to use Debian and it's even less polished than the Linux version :P
22:41:29 <Gregor> A) Using Debian is what cool people do.
22:41:38 <Gregor> B) The real issue is then you have to use glibc!
22:41:43 <alise> Using Debian is what desperate people do.
22:41:52 <alise> cpressey: Sweet, DragonflyBSD panics when booting in VirtualBox.
22:42:32 <pikhq> There's Gentoo FreeBSD.
22:42:37 <alise> Then you have to use Gentoo.
22:42:51 <pikhq> (not GNU/kFreeBSD. It's FreeBSD with Portage.)
22:42:52 <Gregor> And Gentoo's package system isn't appreciably different from ports anyway.
22:43:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Ports is a bunch of BSD makefiles. ... Seriously, that's it.
22:43:27 <Gregor> OK, so portage is the port concept minus the suckiness :P
22:43:37 <alise> portage has nothing to do with ports
22:43:38 <Gregor> I keep forgetting how much FreeBSD sucks.
22:43:41 <alise> and it baffles me why anyone thinks it does
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22:44:14 <pikhq> alise: Well, Portage is *inspired by* Ports.
22:44:22 <alise> Yeah, whatever :P
22:44:30 <pikhq> And people think it goes further than that.
22:44:36 <alise> It sure does.
22:44:43 <alise> Er.
22:44:45 <alise> Oh.
22:44:46 <alise> I see what you mean.
22:44:48 <alise> It sure doesn't.
22:45:11 <alise> Every time anyone says the words "USE flags", I want to punch them.
22:45:14 <Gregor> portage tastes like elephant ears.
22:45:19 <alise> Gregor: what
22:45:21 <pikhq> Portage is "take the basic concept of a source-based packaging system and do EVERYTHING ELSE DIFFERENTLY".
22:45:48 <Gregor> portage tastes like salt-water taffy?
22:45:55 <alise> "If you use the DVD, you can login as root and start a GUI with 'startx'." Note: lie
22:46:06 <alise> I guess it's a CD, not a DVD, but they don't link to any DVDs.
22:46:09 <pikhq> Which is, obviously, completely and utterly different from Ports. :)
22:46:16 <alise> MD5 (dfly-gui-i386-2.6.1_REL.img.bz2) = (not yet available)
22:46:17 <alise> oh i see.
22:46:21 <Gregor> alise: You can only startx if you burn it to a DVD.
22:46:22 <alise> fuck y'all.
22:46:25 <alise> Gregor: I approve
22:46:38 <alise> cpressey: so is this really your installer?
22:46:53 <alise> Apparently it's experimental.
22:47:45 <alise> WARNING: HAMMER filesystems less than 50GB are not recommended!
22:48:05 <Gregor> Wow. I. What?
22:48:20 <alise> Gregor: Apparently I may have to prune-everything a lot or something.
22:48:27 <alise> I guess it's to do with the storage model and the journalling and stuff.
22:48:38 <alise> Still, fifty gigs?!
22:48:42 <alise> brb
22:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone give me random pairs of quaternary numbers in the interval [0.1].
22:52:27 <Vorpal> hm clang in static analyzer mode is reaaaaaaaaaaaally slow
22:52:40 <Vorpal> only to be expected though
22:52:50 <Vorpal> but it does make using it a bit more painful for large projects
22:53:23 <Gregor> I assume the "interval" [0.1] is from 0.1 to 0.1, inclusive?
22:54:16 <oerjan> ...what's a quaternary number
22:54:29 <Gregor> A number in base-4, presumably.
22:54:39 <oerjan> ah.
22:55:00 <Gregor> (So 0.1 is 0.25 decimal)
22:55:16 <cpressey> alise: i have no idea if it is anymore or not
22:56:06 <cpressey> alise: use the freebsd userland.  it'd be the most... what's the word
22:56:13 <cpressey> oomphatic
22:56:41 <cpressey> there are other "BSD distros"... MidnightBSD, I think, is one
22:57:09 <cpressey> but they don't distro well
22:57:28 <cpressey> because they insist on having a "base system" instead of putting the core userland, etc in packages
22:59:09 <cpressey> the HAMMER filesystem?  is first i've heard of it but I'd guess it is HARDCORE JOURNALING FILESYSTEM MADNESS
22:59:56 <pikhq> alise: Had any luck with '95?
23:02:55 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:19:59 <alise> pikhq: no
23:20:08 <pikhq> Bah.
23:20:14 <alise> pikhq: i suggest purchasing the cd
23:21:05 <alise> cpressey: does your installer have an ascii dragonfly on a blue background in the background?
23:22:11 <alise> pikhq: Why aren't all inits service managers?
23:22:43 <Ilari> Seems like using IPv6 ocassionally has wonky problems. Like some sites being very slow to load even through system DOES have working IPv6 connectivity.
23:23:43 <pikhq> Ilari: That's because there's fewer IPv6 routes.
23:24:01 <Ilari> Looks almost like packets get dropped somewhere because of routing trouble.
23:27:20 -!- augur has joined.
23:28:10 <Ilari> BUT: AFAICT, the sent packets do make it out the LAN to the next gateway with proper return address.
23:30:20 <alise> So.
23:31:11 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:31:15 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:31:17 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:31:19 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:31:22 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:31:24 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:31:26 <oklopol> i'm back
23:31:32 <alise> oklopol!
23:31:32 <alise> <3
23:31:34 <alise> WE MISSED YOU
23:31:35 <oklopol> :D
23:31:37 <oklopol> meeeeeee
23:31:41 <alise> NEVER LEAVE
23:32:05 <oklopol> you know why i came back?
23:32:10 <alise> why
23:32:18 <alise> (and why did you leave *sniff*)
23:32:19 <oklopol> i'm completely wasted
23:32:23 <alise> cpressey: have you met oklopol before?
23:32:28 <alise> oklopol: stay wasted if it makes you come back.
23:33:26 <oklopol> :)
23:34:01 <oklopol> what's up?
23:34:07 <oklopol> how long have i veen absent
23:34:08 <oklopol> been
23:34:46 <alise> oklopol: ages
23:34:50 <alise> well you popped in
23:34:53 <alise> a few months ago like august
23:34:55 <alise> but only for days
23:34:59 <alise> before that... months and months
23:35:03 <oklopol> cpressey and i met once, he was talking about groups and i was disagreeing
23:35:13 <oklopol> :()
23:35:15 <oklopol> :(
23:35:22 <alise> cpressey, how dare you :|
23:35:24 <oklopol> i'm a horrible person ain't i
23:35:34 <alise> no cpressey was the evil one here.
23:35:49 <oklopol> cpressey was the evil that lead to my absense?
23:35:57 <cpressey> alise: have. i. met. oklopol. before.
23:36:09 <alise> "Does the Pope shit in the woods?? Is a bear catholic??"
23:36:23 <oklopol> i hope i'll have more time once university settles down a bit
23:36:26 <alise> oklopol: are you sure you mean disagreeing, rather than waging nuclear war on
23:37:02 <oklopol> well i'm not sure i said anything, i just recall cpressey said something about that b... thing i disagreed about
23:37:09 <oklopol> burrow or something
23:37:12 <oklopol> bundel
23:37:15 <oklopol> beglar
23:37:17 <oklopol> baiter
23:37:18 <alise> cpressey: so do you hate him or not :D
23:37:19 <oklopol> binser
23:37:32 <oklopol> bottom
23:37:35 <oklopol> bunnon
23:37:39 <cpressey> wait, wait? no! hi oklopol
23:37:45 <oklopol> hello cpressey
23:37:52 <oklopol> nice to meet you
23:37:52 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:37:53 <alise> aww happy family
23:38:03 <oerjan> oklopol: burro
23:38:06 <alise> oklopol: i have written some python that will make you proud
23:38:07 <oklopol> oerjan"
23:38:08 <oklopol> !
23:38:14 <oklopol> anyone here know nivat's conjecture
23:38:28 * alise shuffles, points to oerjan
23:38:33 <oerjan> novay
23:38:42 <alise> oklopol: http://pastie.org/1210292.txt?key=hcfdup8hv8dd9hovd40myw this is a game! written in python!
23:38:47 <oklopol> haha because it's like norway
23:38:49 <alise> it is coded exactly like you code verything
23:38:56 <alise> i hope you appreciate my skillz
23:39:00 <oklopol> you mean awesomely
23:39:19 <oklopol> you do realize i don't code *anything* nowadays
23:39:24 -!- jcp has joined.
23:39:25 <alise> oklopol: well yes but
23:39:27 <cpressey> oklopol: were you also who kept making me explain better why i thought there was no ring-language?
23:39:28 <alise> oklopol: shut up and admire my program
23:39:47 <oklopol> cpressey: sounds like something i would do
23:39:56 <cpressey> yeah
23:40:45 <oklopol> alise: tbh i don't see what that does, some sort of rogue?
23:41:05 <alise> oklopol: yes
23:41:15 <alise> oklopol: it abuses integer division and wildly uses booleans as integers
23:41:16 <oklopol> okay
23:41:18 <alise> because that's just how i roll.
23:41:21 <oklopol> cool
23:41:25 <oklopol> yeah
23:41:28 <alise> oklopol: it's pretty fun, try playing it
23:41:37 <oklopol> so btw
23:41:40 <alise> the monsters don't even bother you right now, how cool is that
23:41:42 <oklopol> i just had a friend over
23:41:48 <oklopol> first time in like 3 years
23:41:59 <alise> "Why are there cans of dogfood everywhere?"
23:42:01 <oklopol> (unless you count my gf's friends)
23:42:02 <alise> `quote 91
23:42:07 <alise> damn i hope that's the right number
23:42:09 <oklopol> he stayed for 10 minutes
23:42:11 <alise> oh wait
23:42:13 <alise> `quote porridge
23:42:36 <oklopol> i would love to try it, but it's not a program, it's just text!
23:42:53 <alise> omg i think i may have been on wifi all this time.
23:42:59 <alise> oklopol: save it as vagrant.py
23:43:02 <alise> then run it with python :|
23:43:05 <alise> you knew that.
23:43:18 <oklopol> okay i do have python
23:43:24 <oklopol> but i'm not proud of that
23:43:49 <alise> oklopol: wait are you on windows?
23:43:54 <alise> it may not work if so.
23:44:17 <oklopol> saved it as vagrant.pyu because of my mention-worthy drunkenness
23:44:29 <oklopol> can you rename files?
23:45:00 <oklopol> erm
23:45:03 <HackEgo> No output.
23:45:04 <alise> yes
23:45:08 <alise> you right click on them
23:45:09 <HackEgo> No output.
23:45:10 <alise> and choose Rename
23:45:18 <alise> or press f2, that might work
23:45:21 <alise> after having selected it
23:45:42 <oklopol> i don't know where folder options is in vista...
23:45:48 <oklopol> i mean
23:46:25 <oklopol> it's .txt and windows has this retarded "show user the suffix but don't let them change it" thing
23:46:32 <alise> oklopol: it probably won't work on windows
23:46:44 <alise> since windows python doesn't ship with curses because it's fucktarded
23:47:26 <oklopol> well
23:47:30 <oklopol> that may be true
23:47:46 <oklopol> but turns out the problem i mentioned does have a rather intuitive solution
23:48:13 <oklopol> you can just change the suffix if you like, i don't know why i couldn't the first time i tried
23:48:38 <oklopol> yeah doesn't ship with curses said it
23:48:43 <oklopol> 'says
23:48:47 <oklopol> *says
23:49:31 <alise> oklopol: do you have the ability to install something
23:49:33 <alise> or are you too drunk
23:49:45 <oklopol> well
23:49:51 <oklopol> i guess i could install curses
23:49:56 <alise> http://adamv.com/dev/python/curses/
23:50:00 <alise> this might work.
23:50:14 <oklopol> i'm not *that* drunk
23:50:20 <oklopol> also
23:50:31 <oklopol> it seems my avast is still pirate
23:50:47 <Ilari> Logic circuits that work at 500 degC using microelectromechanics... Aren't there semiconductor circuit technologies (very exotic) that work at 750 degC?
23:51:22 <oklopol> dunno
23:51:45 <alise> oklopol: quick guide to playing vagrant while you attempt to install wcurses.
23:52:09 <alise> hjkl is left/down/up/right, yubn is diagonals, you can figure out those yourself
23:52:18 <alise> % is food, boosts S, S gets to zero, you lose 50 hp/turn
23:52:19 <oerjan> being drunk _should_ help with cursing
23:52:27 <alise> ! is potion, adds to the meter that comes after HP
23:52:32 <alise> Q is inactive enemy
23:52:33 <alise> $ is money
23:52:34 <alise> # is wall
23:52:37 <oklopol> oerjan is funny
23:52:47 <alise> q takes hp from the counter after the hp, adds it to hp, helps with hallucination a bit, and shit
23:52:49 <alise> T is turn count
23:52:53 <alise> @ is you
23:52:59 <alise> if you eat food, 1/15 chance of being rotten
23:53:03 <alise> takes a little bit of hp off
23:53:04 <alise> and you hallucinate
23:53:09 <oerjan> oklopol is polite
23:53:11 <alise> for the next 85-115 turns
23:53:23 <alise> oklopol: oh, and enter dismisses a message if you wanna see the status bar
23:53:30 <alise> or if your cursor goes after a message any key dismisses it and lets you move
23:53:30 <oklopol> copy it to your "site-packages directory" what the fuck is a site packages directory :D
23:53:34 <alise> (otherwise it's not a blocking message)
23:53:39 <alise> oklopol: wherever python is\lib\site-packages
23:53:48 <alise> oklopol: and finally, any other key skips a turn.
23:54:12 <alise> also, hallucination is AWESOME
23:54:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:54:34 <oklopol> you've hallucinated?
23:54:39 <alise> in the game
23:54:44 <alise> <alise> if you eat food, 1/15 chance of being rotten
23:54:44 <alise> <alise> takes a little bit of hp off
23:54:44 <alise> <alise> and you hallucinate
23:54:46 <oklopol> are you still in that institution thing
23:54:50 <alise> hurrrrrr
23:54:50 <alise> oklopol: no
23:54:54 <oklopol> :o
23:55:01 <oklopol> please elaboray
23:55:02 <oklopol> te
23:55:09 <alise> oh yeah and holding down enter is useful since you can usually make out what the tiles are, when hallucinating
23:55:10 <alise> with that
23:55:14 <alise> since it re-hallucinates
23:55:17 <alise> oklopol: "i'm out"
23:55:24 <oklopol> completely
23:55:25 <oklopol> ?
23:55:31 <alise> something like that, yes
23:55:34 <oklopol> :O
23:55:39 <oklopol> that's really cool
23:55:43 <oklopol> why?
23:55:45 <alise> this happened like a month or two ago :P
23:55:48 <oklopol> :D
23:55:50 <oklopol> :DD
23:55:51 <oklopol> :DDD
23:55:58 <alise> oklopol: they kicked me out for being insufficiently crazy
23:56:03 <oklopol> haha :)
23:56:10 <alise> note: joke stolen from ais523
23:56:40 <oklopol> okay, well anyway that's pretty cool
23:56:57 <oklopol> i figured once in always in
23:57:05 <oklopol> <- optimist
23:57:18 <alise> lawl
23:57:44 <alise> cpressey: what the FUCK is packet mode
23:58:15 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:58:33 <oklopol> okay umm
23:58:53 <alise> lemme guess, something isn't working
23:58:55 <oklopol> maybe i'm too drunk for curses because i pressed the button and your program still won't run!
23:59:00 <alise> what error!
23:59:17 <oklopol> well probably it says curses isn't installed, i didn't look
23:59:18 <oklopol> lemme look
23:59:50 <cpressey> alise: heh.  um... i knew, once

2010-10-10:

00:00:02 <cpressey> alise: what is it that wants to be in packet mode, again?
00:00:05 <oklopol> Traceback (most recent call last):
00:00:05 <oklopol>   File "C:\stuff\vagrant.py", line 2, in <module>
00:00:05 <oklopol>     from curses import*
00:00:05 <oklopol>   File "C:\stuff\curses\__init__.py", line 7, in <module>
00:00:05 <oklopol>     from _WCurses import *
00:00:06 <oklopol> ImportError: DLL load failed: The specified module could not be found.
00:00:09 <oklopol> kind of a no-brained
00:00:10 <oklopol> r
00:00:23 <alise> oklopol: oh right that. yeah. that doesn't seem to work. sometimes. wait a sec.
00:00:54 <oklopol> it would be weird if it worked, i just downloaded something called curses into a random directory...
00:01:14 <alise> oklopol: no, you installed it properly
00:01:17 <alise> it's a problem with the package
00:01:20 <alise> okay the pyd is there, so
00:01:20 <oklopol> oka
00:01:21 <oklopol> y
00:01:53 <cpressey> "Packet mode is on Facebook" "Sign up for Facebook to connect with Packet mode."
00:02:08 <alise> oklopol: wait do you have cygwin?
00:02:10 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:02:13 <oklopol> does alise have a facebook page?
00:02:24 <oklopol> alise: i... don't remember :D
00:02:28 <alise> no. well technically yes but the last time i used it i just played go terribly
00:02:29 <alise> oklopol: GO CHECK
00:02:31 <oklopol> let's see...
00:02:42 <oklopol> heh, no
00:02:45 <oklopol> do i need it? :D
00:02:45 <alise> oklopol: if you do, start the setup program and just tick python, and ncurses
00:02:47 <alise> okayy
00:02:51 <alise> oklopol: well it would be a lot easier
00:02:51 <Vorpal> okay clang-analyzer is silly, it is first assuming a parameter to the function is false in an if test, then in another if test on the same parameter a bit later assuming it is true
00:02:51 <alise> :)
00:02:58 <alise> http://cygwin.com/setup.exe
00:02:59 <Vorpal> and it has obviously not been changed in between
00:03:03 <Vorpal> or could have been changed even
00:03:11 <alise> you just need to tick python and ncurses; and obviously you love my program enough to do this
00:03:27 <alise> oklopol: btw if you're wondering why Vorpal is so boring, it's because he's AnMaster
00:03:29 <oklopol> yes
00:03:40 <alise> yesumlaut
00:03:40 <Vorpal> alise, he knows that
00:03:45 <oklopol> i know that
00:03:50 <Vorpal> alise, and stop trolling
00:03:55 <alise> i'm trolling?
00:04:06 <alise> i don't think you know what trolling means
00:04:14 <Vorpal> alise, I do know, and you are doing that atm
00:04:24 <oklopol> sure you are, i mean you can't seriously think AnMaster is boring
00:04:47 <alise> yeah i must just be trying to rile him up because i'm so jealous of how interesting he is
00:04:49 <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:04:53 <cpressey> yes.  what an absurd position to take.  you must be trolling.
00:04:54 <Vorpal> alise, :P
00:04:57 <alise> can you imagine meeting him in person? all the sparkly ideas
00:05:00 <alise> bouncing out of him
00:05:09 <alise> the spontaneity
00:05:10 <alise> the FUN
00:05:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, mentioning it all the time is trolling however
00:05:14 <Vorpal> and that is what alise is doing
00:05:25 <alise> i mentioned it once before you misused "trolling"
00:05:32 <alise> oklopol: "changed surely much yes" wat
00:05:33 <Vorpal> alise, once today yes
00:05:35 <alise> what was i thinking
00:05:40 <oklopol> alise: what?
00:05:44 <alise> oklopol: from what i said
00:05:53 <oklopol> alise: i dont' se it
00:05:56 <alise> <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:06:03 <oklopol> what?
00:06:07 <oklopol> what's gonig on
00:06:09 <oklopol> i don't sehet it
00:06:28 <alise> oklopol: are you installing cygwin, drunkard
00:06:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, nor do I
00:06:35 <oklopol> i SM
00:06:37 <oklopol> kind ofa
00:06:43 <alise> <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:06:44 <alise> you just said that
00:06:53 <alise> then i replied "changed surely much yes"
00:06:54 <oklopol> well
00:06:57 <alise> quoting the extract
00:06:58 <oklopol> surel6y that'sd yrue
00:07:01 <alise> to highlight its incomprehensibility
00:07:07 <alise> oklopol: stop faking drunkenness
00:07:11 <oklopol> :D
00:07:11 <Vorpal> oh that, now I get it
00:07:13 <Vorpal> obvious
00:07:30 <oklopol> actually what i was doing was not correcting my spelling
00:07:33 <alise> oklopol: no seriously though, cygwin. tick python and ncurses. for peace and family!
00:07:45 <oklopol> but i'll correct it from now in
00:07:47 <oklopol> *on
00:07:59 <oklopol> anyway
00:08:03 <oklopol> i'm installing
00:08:23 <cpressey> alise: oh jesus PACKET MODE
00:08:27 <alise> oklopol: man you are going to find this *so* disappointing. unless you love games without challenge
00:08:27 <oklopol> haven't ticked anything, it didn't ask yet, and it's already installing all kinds of crap
00:08:31 <alise> cpressey: RIGHT what is it, i enabled it
00:08:35 <alise> it was enabled by default
00:08:39 <alise> oklopol: um it should have provided a list
00:08:42 <alise> like a bunch
00:08:43 <alise> of categories
00:08:45 <alise> at a previous step
00:08:45 <oklopol> games without challenge are so coolsome
00:08:46 <alise> oh wait
00:08:52 <alise> oklopol: it's probably just downloading the list
00:08:56 <cpressey> alise: um.  everything in BSD-land is ancient.  Good luck finding hardware where it makes a stitch of difference
00:08:56 <alise> if not, cancel and trya gain
00:08:59 <oklopol> erm
00:09:01 <alise> cpressey: what is it.
00:09:02 <oklopol> actually
00:09:09 <alise> also, VM :P
00:09:14 <oklopol> it's currently asking where i want to download from
00:09:22 <alise> oklopol: yeah just pick any. probably one in finland
00:09:23 <oklopol> i thought it was listing what it's currently downloading
00:09:24 <oklopol> :D
00:09:39 <alise> cpressey: do i want cp850 or iso keyboard map :|
00:09:41 <alise> YOU CLEARLY KNOW THIS
00:09:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:03 <cpressey> alise: http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=boot0cfg§ion=8
00:10:06 <cpressey> srch for packet
00:10:11 <oklopol> chose a random one, didn't see a .fi
00:10:14 <alise> cpressey: hah
00:10:19 <alise> oklopol: it's quite a lot to download
00:10:21 <alise> i would have chosen a .se
00:10:26 <alise> swedish servers are fast for some reason
00:12:30 <oklopol> okay i'm downloading something now
00:12:41 <oklopol> i don't know what it is, but something definitely
00:12:54 <alise> oklopol: it's like 100 megs to download
00:12:56 <alise> if you picked a slow server
00:12:58 <alise> this will never finish
00:13:13 <oklopol> :D
00:13:22 <oklopol> i picked a random one as i said
00:13:28 <oklopol> anyway
00:13:30 <alise> oklopol: go back and pick an .se
00:13:32 <alise> or something
00:13:32 <oklopol> over half done
00:13:37 <alise> oklopol: that's just the package list!
00:13:41 <alise> that finishes in about 5s for me
00:13:46 <alise> five seconds
00:13:49 <alise> you need a good mirror :P
00:14:26 <oklopol> speed is like 200 kB/s afaik
00:14:29 <oklopol> *afaiu
00:14:59 <alise> that should be fine then
00:15:19 <alise> oklopol: anyway once it goes to the list just use the searchy thing to search for python, tick that, then ncurses, tick that too
00:15:27 <alise> you wanna pick like the latest one if it lists a few
00:15:53 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep soon
00:15:55 <oklopol> :-)
00:16:01 <alise> oklopol: but my gaem
00:16:04 <oklopol> well
00:16:10 <oklopol> that's very important, yes
00:16:18 <alise> oklopol: will you return :|
00:16:25 <oklopol> i might!
00:16:31 <alise> oklopol: NO YOU MUST
00:17:07 <oklopol> university takes pretty much all my time
00:17:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
00:17:21 <alise> oklopol: just combine drinking and #esoteric
00:17:21 <oklopol> and i hate computers
00:17:25 <oklopol> well
00:17:27 <alise> WRITE OKLOS
00:17:28 <oklopol> the problem is
00:17:37 <oklopol> i don't drink very often
00:18:04 <oklopol> when i'm drunk people are very interesting
00:18:07 <alise> oklopol: forfeit all social interaction
00:18:10 <alise> join #esoteric
00:18:16 <oklopol> byt when i'm not, i just try to solve things
00:18:40 <oklopol> for me, #esoteric is the social interaction
00:18:44 <alise> solve enjoying #esoteric
00:19:06 <alise> oklopol: i will totally come to turku sometime
00:19:18 <alise> well helsinki looks like more fun, but i guess i could go to turku too
00:19:39 <oklopol> except being a researcher is mostly talking to the other researchers, although mostly it's them talking and me thinking about math
00:20:03 <oklopol> well i would definitely LOVE seeing you
00:20:11 <alise> never have you sounded more sarcastic
00:20:18 <oklopol> ;-)
00:20:26 <alise> maybe i'll just blow turku up
00:20:31 <oklopol> well in any case that's true
00:20:39 <oklopol> it would be cool to meet your
00:20:43 <alise> my what
00:20:49 <oklopol> oh
00:20:53 <oklopol> i didn't notice that
00:20:55 <oklopol> *-r
00:20:59 <oklopol> your penis
00:21:01 <alise> oklopol: HOWS CYGWYN
00:21:07 <oklopol> let's se.
00:21:14 <oklopol> installed!
00:21:23 <alise> oklopol: wait did you select python and ncurses
00:21:36 <oklopol> well
00:21:37 <oklopol> kind of
00:21:43 <oklopol> there was some sort of selecting thing
00:21:45 <oklopol> but
00:21:48 <alise> you skipped it
00:21:49 <oklopol> there was not ncurses
00:21:53 <alise> oklopol: was there curses
00:21:58 <oklopol> well maybe
00:22:00 <oklopol> i didn't look
00:22:01 <oklopol> :D
00:22:03 <alise> oklopol: well whatever it might work
00:22:05 <alise> start a cygwin shell
00:22:09 <oklopol> k
00:22:10 <alise> it's in your start menu somewhere
00:22:12 <alise> cygwin bash or whatever
00:22:24 <alise> oklopol: then cd /cygdrive/c/path/to/vagrant
00:22:30 <alise> then python vagrant.py
00:22:32 <alise> that should work
00:23:36 <oklopol> no module named _WCurses
00:23:37 <oklopol> :D
00:23:42 <alise> oklopol: ugh wait
00:23:47 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:23:49 <alise> omg quaffing has a bug
00:24:39 <oklopol> i'm going to go sleep soon btw
00:24:43 <alise> oklopol: okay in vagrant.py
00:24:45 <alise> after the line
00:24:48 <alise>  if k=='q':
00:24:50 <alise> put
00:24:51 <alise>   q=min(P,20)
00:24:53 <alise> then the bug will be gone
00:24:55 <oklopol> k
00:25:07 <alise> oklopol: does the /usr/bin/python one work?
00:25:16 <oklopol> certainly not
00:25:38 <alise> oklopol: ff what happens
00:26:28 <alise> oklopol: WE ARE SO CLOSE TO SOLVING THE WORLD
00:26:44 <oklopol> :D
00:26:52 <alise> oklopol: WHAT HAPPENZ
00:26:53 <oklopol> _WCurses doesn't be found
00:27:00 <alise> oklopol: even with /usr/bin?
00:27:09 <oklopol> erm
00:27:15 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:27:16 <alise> run that
00:27:18 <alise> in cygwin
00:27:20 <oklopol> still not
00:27:23 <alise> what
00:27:24 <alise> same error/
00:27:27 <alise> *error?
00:27:29 <oklopol> yes
00:27:32 <alise> no, that's simply not possible
00:27:35 <oklopol> :D
00:27:38 <alise> are you sure you entered that exactly :|
00:27:42 <alise> oklopol: okay where did you put wcurses
00:27:44 <oklopol> pretty sure!
00:27:52 <oklopol> what's wcurses?= :D
00:28:08 <alise> oklopol: THAT CURSES FOR WINDOWS YOU COPIED SOMEWHERE
00:28:12 <oklopol> :D
00:28:13 <alise> to site-packages
00:28:15 <alise> where did you put it
00:29:14 <oklopol> well umm
00:29:28 <oklopol> let's see
00:29:58 <oklopol> python26/lin
00:30:01 <oklopol> *b
00:30:06 <alise> oklopol: where is ptyhon26
00:30:07 <alise> c:?
00:30:09 <alise> *python26
00:30:10 <oklopol> yesh
00:30:16 <alise> oklopol: OH
00:30:19 <alise> just delete the curses folder
00:30:24 <alise> in c:\python26\lib\site-packages
00:30:25 <alise> just baleet it
00:30:28 <alise> and then try again
00:30:34 <oklopol> done
00:30:39 <alise> work?
00:30:42 <oklopol> erm
00:31:23 <oklopol> baleeettet?
00:31:44 <alise> oklopol: what
00:31:47 <alise> oklopol: try the python line again
00:31:50 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:31:53 <oklopol> i deleted *a* curses folder
00:32:01 <oklopol> but not the one in site-packages
00:32:06 <oklopol> ;-)
00:32:17 <alise> oklopol: undo that.
00:32:20 <oklopol> i can't
00:32:24 <oklopol> :D
00:32:26 <alise> oklopol: actually it doesn't matter
00:32:29 <alise> you know c:\python26?
00:32:33 <alise> nuke that whole directory.
00:32:39 <oklopol> i know that address yes
00:32:45 <alise> just delete it.
00:32:53 <oklopol> i won't, there's a couple progs of mine thar
00:32:54 <oklopol> sry
00:32:59 <alise> oklopol: okay just delete
00:33:01 <alise> c:\python26\lib
00:33:06 <alise> that should work fine
00:33:38 <oklopol> erm
00:33:40 <oklopol> why?
00:33:48 <oklopol> that's full of files!
00:33:51 <alise> oklopol: trust me, i'm a scientist.
00:33:55 <alise> no, it's full of files from evil python
00:33:57 <alise> we want lovely cygwin python
00:33:59 <alise> which has bunnies
00:34:05 <alise> evil python files are infecting cygwin python's brains
00:34:06 <alise> and making it dumb
00:34:13 <oklopol> oh
00:34:13 <coppro> lol
00:34:17 <oklopol> okay i'll remove all
00:34:23 <oklopol> i'll do what you say
00:34:33 <alise> coppro: HOW IS THE PUBLICATION OF MY MATHNEWS ARTICLE GOING EH
00:34:33 <coppro> fall prey to the mind control
00:34:42 <coppro> alise: guess it didn't make this issue?
00:34:45 <coppro> i dunno
00:34:50 <alise> coppro: BAH
00:34:58 <alise> is it out then?
00:35:00 <oklopol> all gone now
00:35:06 <coppro> alise: it might come back for a later issue
00:35:07 <alise> oklopol: now try the command
00:35:09 <coppro> you never know
00:35:17 <alise> coppro: the website hasn't been updated, sheesh!
00:35:20 <alise> such unprofessionalism
00:35:22 <oklopol> wait actually it takes a while to remove 2000 files
00:35:24 <alise> this is exactly what i was complaining about
00:35:32 <coppro> alise: also sort of the point
00:35:37 <oklopol> okay still no module WCurses
00:35:41 <alise> oklopol: ...what
00:35:45 <alise> oklopol: that's, literally physically impossible
00:35:46 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep now :D
00:35:47 <oklopol> :D
00:35:48 <alise> oklopol: NO WAIT
00:35:50 <oklopol> i believe you
00:35:53 <alise> oklopol: the traceback it gives
00:35:54 <alise> what files does it list
00:35:56 <oklopol> omaay
00:35:56 <alise> apart from vagrant.py
00:36:09 <coppro> I BELIEVE IN THE POWER FUNCTION!
00:36:32 <alise> coppro: i suggest you boycott that evil paper
00:36:39 <oklopol> vagrant.py, from curses import blah
00:36:46 <alise> oklopol: the FILES
00:36:46 <oklopol> then
00:36:48 <alise> that aren't vagrant.py
00:36:49 <alise> yes
00:37:00 <oklopol> __init__.py
00:37:06 <alise> yes
00:37:08 <alise> but __init__.py WHERE
00:37:15 <oklopol> c/stuff/
00:37:24 <oklopol> ...rses
00:37:25 <alise> oklopol: I NEED TO KNOW THE PATH
00:37:26 <alise> :|
00:37:29 <oklopol> *.../curses
00:37:36 <alise> it's not stuff/
00:37:37 <oklopol> erm okay
00:37:38 <alise> the stuff is important :p
00:38:33 <oklopol> /cygdrive/c/stuff/curses/__init__.py
00:38:41 <alise> oklopol: WHAT IS STUFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
00:38:47 <oklopol> sic.
00:38:50 <alise> what
00:38:56 <oklopol> sic
00:39:04 <alise> /c/sic/curses?
00:39:06 <alise> no it is not
00:39:33 <oklopol> i mean literally stuff.
00:39:45 <alise> oklopol: really?
00:39:53 <oklopol> yes really
00:40:02 <oklopol> i call my main folder suff.
00:40:04 <oklopol> *stuff
00:40:12 <alise> oklopol: yes, but
00:40:15 <alise> curses shouldn't be right in there
00:40:17 <alise> oklopol: OH
00:40:19 <alise> oklopol: remove stuff/curses
00:40:23 <alise> remove that whole directory
00:40:24 <oklopol> ;D
00:40:25 <oklopol> :D
00:40:27 <oklopol> ok!
00:40:38 <oklopol> done
00:40:42 <alise> oklopol: now try
00:40:52 <oklopol> lol
00:40:53 <oklopol> woks
00:40:55 <oklopol> *works
00:40:57 <alise> oklopol: now play
00:41:00 <alise> do you remember what i said
00:41:02 <alise> my tutorial
00:41:13 <alise> wait
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> after the line
00:41:13 <alise> <alise>  if k=='q':
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> put
00:41:13 <alise> <alise>   q=min(P,20)
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> then the bug will be gone
00:41:14 <oklopol> although it still says there's no WCurses
00:41:16 <alise> oklopol: did you do this?
00:41:22 <oklopol> it prints the map
00:41:27 <oklopol> yes
00:41:31 <alise> oklopol: wait, what?
00:41:35 <alise> okay Ctrl+C
00:41:37 <alise> clear
00:41:42 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:41:45 <alise> that should definitely work
00:41:48 <alise> with no errors
00:41:59 <alise> oklopol: do you remember the controls and what things are and shit
00:42:03 <alise> if not i can copy-paste :LP
00:42:33 <alise> *:P
00:43:31 <oklopol> erm okay now it works
00:43:32 <oklopol> so
00:43:39 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep
00:44:02 <oklopol> i'll complete the game tomorrow
00:44:05 <oklopol> mAYBE
00:44:08 <oklopol> .>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
00:45:40 <alise> oklopol: IT IS SUCH FUNS
00:45:43 <alise> oklopol: wait
00:45:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:45:45 <alise> oklopol: come in here tomorrow :|
00:48:30 -!- augur has joined.
00:49:24 <alise> cpressey: it doesn't boot!
00:49:25 <alise> cpressey: fix yer installer
00:50:12 <cpressey> alise: i resigned
00:50:20 <alise> cpressey: DRAT, FOILED AGAIN
00:50:25 <cpressey> also, that's the boot block's problem
00:50:31 <alise> nope
00:50:35 <alise> it won't start smtpd or something
00:50:38 <alise> apparently this is a boot-blocking error
00:50:41 <alise> (what is it about BSDs that attracts drama, btw?)
00:50:53 <cpressey> oh well then it boots, it just doesn't... start up
00:51:05 <alise> most useless distinction evar
00:51:10 <cpressey> pah.  who needs smtpd
00:51:12 <alise> hey safe mode seems to work
00:51:23 <alise> cpressey: WILL YOU USE MY BSD/LINUX (I HAVE NO IDEA WHICH YET) DISTRIBUTION
00:51:27 <alise> it will be all the puppies
00:51:30 <alise> all the flowers and kittens
00:51:32 <cpressey> IF YOU CAN GET TO MINED, IT BOOTS
00:51:43 <cpressey> alise: perhaps.
00:51:44 <alise> in fact it may just be distributed as kitten-version.iso
00:52:07 <alise> kitten, nice name for an os
00:52:11 <alise> much better than Quadrant (my first thought)
00:52:37 <alise> oh it boots just with yelly error messages that hide the login prompt
00:52:39 <alise> until you press enter
00:53:09 <cpressey> at one point i wanted to strip the Dragonfly userland to the bare minimum and distribute a (then-)flash-drive sized distro of it
00:53:13 <cpressey> called "Damselfly"
00:53:14 <alise> cpressey: features: everything is a service! stupid init system all gone, instead process 1 is just a nice service management system (think "# ctl start x11")
00:53:19 <cpressey> get it?  and there actually is such an insect
00:53:26 <alise> probably non-glibc for at least most stuff
00:53:29 <alise> maybe statically linked (probably not)
00:53:34 <alise> bsd userland, or at least a minimal one
00:53:44 <alise> cpressey: hur hur :P
00:54:14 <alise> cpressey: did it ever get anywhere?
00:54:15 <alise> i guess not
00:54:21 <cpressey> alise: no
00:54:40 <cpressey> alise: have they packageized the base system yet?
00:54:44 <alise> oh, extra feature: probably some sort of pre-assembled configuration of a panel program and i guess a file manager, constituting the "desktop environment"
00:54:44 <cpressey> if not, fft
00:54:50 <alise> cpressey: very much doubt it
00:55:01 <cpressey> there are so many old programs in there no one the fuck uses
00:55:09 <alise>  <alise> oh, extra feature: probably some sort of pre-assembled configuration of a panel program and i guess a file manager, constituting the "desktop environment"
00:55:10 <alise> as a package that is
00:55:12 <cpressey> supporting ancient and obscure hardware
00:55:17 <alise> s/^ +//
00:55:44 <cpressey> so, for that reason alone, i would lean towards, if you have a bsd userland, make it a package
00:55:45 <alise> oh and there may be some merging of the concepts of a package manager and a system configuration manager, and maybe even services manager
00:55:49 <alise> but that's much more up in the air
00:55:55 <alise> cpressey: everything will be a package, more or less.
00:55:56 <cpressey> eeowza
00:55:58 <alise> the kernel won't be
00:56:00 <zzo38> Will use *my* LINUX DISTIBUTION (if/when I write it)?
00:56:08 <cpressey> zzo38: perhaps.
00:56:12 <alise> maybe one or two things in /bin that the system needs to even start will be in one package like ultra-base
00:56:16 <alise> and /lib
00:56:21 <alise> zzo38: probably not.
00:56:26 <zzo38> It won't have all the puppies and flowers and kittens. (If you want those, you have to get them separately)
00:56:38 <alise> see, this is why i wouldn't use it!
00:56:43 <cpressey> apt-get install butterflies
00:56:45 <alise> i like puppies and flowers and kittens!
00:56:57 <alise> cpressey: oh yeah, and general system ethos of... not breaking, ever
00:57:01 <alise> if i can help it
00:57:11 <zzo38> alise: That's why? You can still get them separately, you should be able to use them compatible, with background picture or whatever....
00:57:25 <alise> oh and packages that really suck like x11 and the like will probably come with some sort of helping aids to make them less terrible to administer
00:57:37 <alise> zzo38: But I need puppies and flowers and kittens.
00:57:44 <alise> How could I even install them if I didn't have them? I need them to use any system!
00:58:12 <zzo38> alise: You can use your distribution. For my distribution, if you want puppies and flowers and kittens, you have to get it separately. It is not part of the distribution, but that doesn't mean it is incompatible.
00:58:32 <alise> cpressey: it's also possible that the system will be run entirely from ram.
00:58:33 <alise> maybe.
00:58:37 <pikhq> Mmkay. So far, I have discovered that everything ever hates me.
00:58:56 <zzo38> I might write most of the new programs using Enhanced CWEB. Now, this Linux distribution is not only a operating system, it is also a book.
00:58:57 <alise> zzo38: But how could I get it? I'd have to use a distribution to do that. And if I use yours, it won't have puppies and flowers and kittens, so I won't be able to use it even for the second it takes me to get them.
00:59:33 <zzo38> alise: Ah, then don't use it, if you don't want to..... or, just make a modified distribution using some other system to make the modifications with..... whichever way you prefer
01:00:00 <cpressey> you will need to use the autopuppifier download tool
01:00:03 <zzo38> If you want pictures, put the pictures on USB memory or so on.
01:00:04 <alise> I think I'll stick to kitten OS
01:00:08 <alise> zzo38: no pictures
01:00:08 <zzo38> alise: OK.
01:00:09 <alise> actual kittens!
01:00:13 <alise> and flowers, and puppies
01:00:24 <zzo38> alise: OK, do that if you want to.
01:00:25 <alise> in my operating system
01:03:19 <alise> cpressey: lame, it doesn't do qemu's network
01:03:20 <alise> properly
01:03:23 <alise> or i configured it wrong >_>
01:05:10 <alise> cpressey: "As of 1.4, DragonFly uses the NetBSD Packages Collection pkgsrc (http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html) for third-party software."
01:05:11 <alise> cheaters
01:11:42 * alise uses aria2c to download PC-BSD from all mirrors at once
01:11:47 <zzo38> I have explained before that I planned to call my distribution "ArcaneLinux", and explained the codename scheme used. Some people figured it out, other people think the theme doesn't match itself. (alise: What codename scheme do you plan?)
01:11:57 <alise> what is the scheme
01:12:01 <alise> ?
01:13:14 <zzo38> alise: The scheme is that the second version might be called "Illimitable Illithid" and the sixth version called "Vancouver Island", and so on.
01:13:33 <alise> I see.
01:13:43 <alise> I don't plan a codename scheme, as I don't plan to have releases, just updates.
01:14:01 <alise> The installer CD will probably be rebuilt whenever it stops working or gets out of date in some noticeable way.
01:14:14 <alise> So from about one to three months, I would guess.
01:15:56 <alise> Those would just be given YYYY-MM release dates, almost certainly.
01:16:02 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:18:06 <alise> pikhq: Hey -- were you the one who knew stuff about ksplice?
01:18:23 <alise> or was that a #nixos guy
01:19:04 <alise> pikhq: Ooh, scratch that. I just had an idea.
01:19:19 <alise> pikhq: If you did a hibernate-type-thing, would it be possible to omit the kernel memory, and then have the new kernel restore it?
01:19:27 <alise> Thus having a reboot but keeping everything started up.
01:22:14 -!- HackEgo has joined.
01:23:10 <pikhq> alise: Only if you could somehow make it keep track of the kernel *state*.
01:23:50 <alise> pikhq: True. Aww.
01:24:01 <alise> pikhq: I wish ksplice was something you could port to another kernel in, like, days.
01:24:05 <alise> Stupid bad system design.
01:24:13 <alise> pikhq: I guess I'll just stick to supporting a kexec reboot method.
01:25:58 <cpressey> alise: guess what. i left when they decided to use pkgsrc
01:26:07 <cpressey> like, way to innovate, guys
01:26:07 <alise> cpressey: haha
01:26:30 <cpressey> there were like two or three people involved in the project who were trying to build a new package system, too
01:26:55 <alise> you know, the last thing i'd have expected from you is for you to have written an installer and stuff for a bsd variant
01:27:00 <alise> it just...
01:27:05 <alise> are you suer it was you?
01:27:06 <alise> *sure
01:27:27 <cpressey> alise: it's in Lua, too!  ooooo!
01:27:31 <cpressey> i'm not me!
01:27:49 <alise> oh that's why it sucks then
01:27:49 <alise> ;)
01:28:33 <cpressey> have you ever used freebsd's installer?
01:28:38 <cpressey> i mean, c'mon
01:29:11 <cpressey> all bsd installers suck
01:29:46 <pikhq> alise: So, the way to get a Win2k VM in Qemu is apparently to install it in VirtualBox and convert the disk image.
01:31:25 <alise> pikhq: Oh joy.
01:31:27 <alise> Why not just use it in VirtualBox?
01:31:41 <alise> cpressey: pc-bsds is probably decent since it's all modern and graphical, even if that's irritating
01:31:49 <alise> cpressey: kitten's installer will be nice :D
01:32:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:32:35 <alise> cpressey: what was the old installer like:?
01:32:37 <alise> if it had one
01:32:39 <alise> *like?
01:32:45 <pikhq> alise: Because qemu is significantly more flexible.
01:33:01 <alise> pikhq: why would you want flexible win2k :p
01:33:13 <pikhq> alise: And VirtualBox doesn't really let you go and just create a hard disk image that's a copy-on-write clone of another one.
01:33:37 <alise> true.
01:33:41 <alise> pikhq: are you replacing wine or something :)
01:34:00 <pikhq> Well, not all programs run on WINE.
01:34:01 <pikhq> :)
01:34:23 <cpressey> alise: you mean dfbsd? it didn't have one. it just came with instructions for how to do an install using unix commands
01:34:31 <alise> cpressey: joy
01:34:32 <pikhq> Whereas the only limitation with qemu is that it doesn't emulate 3D hardware.
01:34:38 <cpressey> from a booted livecd, of course
01:35:20 <alise> cpressey: to be honest, the installer in kitten will probably just help you partition a little, format filesystems, tell the package manager "install the base package in this root", and then do some trivial system configuration
01:35:21 <alise> well
01:35:24 <alise> i guess that's quite a lot
01:35:27 <alise> but it won't be a hugely complex prorgam
01:35:29 <alise> *program
01:35:30 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:36:03 <zzo38> If you make it with kitten and flower, does it have flowers that even talk?
01:36:37 <alise> flowers don't talk
01:36:48 * pikhq shall force Windows into doing his bidding! Muahahaha
01:37:04 <zzo38> alise: I know. That is why it is funny
01:37:13 <alise> well it isn't a flower then!
01:37:17 <alise> pikhq: what are you planning to do?
01:38:31 <pikhq> alise: ... Create a set of application-specific VMs.
01:38:38 <alise> pikhq: right.
01:38:46 <alise> pikhq: replace explorer.exe with the application >:)
01:38:54 <alise> then make the application fullscreen if possible
01:38:57 <alise> and make qemu set the window title
01:38:59 <alise> then make a launcher for it
01:39:02 <alise> voila, slowest program ever
01:39:08 <alise> pikhq: can qemu do automatic mouse capture?
01:39:10 <alise> if not, that'd be annoying
01:39:14 <pikhq> It can't.
01:39:32 <alise> http://www.metasploit.com/redmine/attachments/433/get_bionic_working.diff ;; this purports to make android's libc, bionic, compile on a regular system
01:39:47 <pikhq> I'm primarily intending this for games for Windows.
01:39:50 <alise> dunno if linux or bsd
01:39:55 <alise> pikhq: right. qemu is a bit slow for that
01:39:58 <alise> no?
01:40:00 <pikhq> Either 2D or sufficiently-simple-3D-that-software-rendering-doesn't-suck
01:40:03 <pikhq> alise: KVM
01:40:05 <alise> meh
01:41:16 <pikhq> "INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE"
01:41:21 <pikhq> Now *there's* an error I dislike.
01:41:53 -!- jcp has joined.
01:42:01 <alise> pikhq: :-D
01:42:12 <alise> Exception: [FtpNegotiationCommand.cc:346] File /home/ehird/PCBSD8.1-x86-DVD.iso is being downloaded by other command.
01:42:16 <alise> i wonder why i get 394857573894579345 of those.
01:42:21 <alise> when feeding it a hueg list of http and ftp servers
01:42:25 <alise> (aria2)
01:42:49 * pikhq tries installing on qemu without KVM
01:42:57 <pikhq> (... and toggle KVM on afterwards)
01:43:02 <coppro> Oo
01:43:18 * coppro starts singing Gilbert & Sullivan
01:43:22 <coppro> "Poor fellow..."
01:43:38 <pikhq> This'll be slower than hell. Hooray.
01:44:50 <pikhq> Ah. Windows installation breaks with kqemu & kvm.
01:47:38 <wareya> Where can I find an introduction to functional programming that doesn't talk as if the reader is brand new to the idea of what functional programming is?
01:47:59 <alise> wareya: Umm...
01:48:04 <alise> That's sort of half-contradictory.
01:48:13 <alise> I sort of get what you mean, but...
01:48:57 <pikhq> Hrm. "Setup is starting Windows 2000" for the past... 5 minutes.
01:49:06 <pikhq> I think it's lying to me.
01:49:19 <wareya> like how most imperative programming 'tutorials' start off with what variables and statements are, and don't get past them for five pages.
01:50:09 <pikhq> Motherfucking hell.
01:50:43 <pikhq> Everything hates me.
01:50:50 <coppro> wareya: HTDP? SCIP?
01:50:55 <coppro> *SICP
01:51:15 <alise> boo htdp, yay sicp
01:51:21 <alise> htdp is too practical and plt and BULLSHIT :|
01:51:30 <alise> Have you read your SICP today?
01:51:31 <coppro> lol
01:51:34 <wareya> Coppro: ?
01:51:56 <coppro> htdp.org / google it
01:52:04 <wareya> k
01:52:05 <alise> wareya: sicp.
01:52:08 <wareya> sicp
01:52:32 * coppro wonders if we can start a htdp/sicp flamewar
01:52:32 * alise tries to find the ascii /prog/snake
01:52:49 <coppro> it'll be the new emacs/vim
01:53:22 <cpressey> MLftWP
01:53:32 <coppro> ?
01:53:32 <alise> "I work on power management, so I'm always interested in what kind of power management functionality and interfaces people want. Plumbers included a nice discussion with someone from an embedded company I can't remember, culminating in us deciding that the existing cpufreq interface did what they wanted and so no new interfaces needed to be defined. Google was going to be an interesting case of a large company hiring people both from the embedded world and a
01:53:32 <alise> lso the existing Linux development community and then producing an embedded device that was intended to compete with the very best existing platforms. I had high hopes that this combination of factors would result in the Linux community as a whole having a better idea what the constraints and requirements for high-quality power management in the embedded world were, rather than us ending up with another pile of vendor code sitting on an FTP site somewhere in
01:53:33 <alise>  Taiwan that implements its power management by passing tokenised dead mice through a wormhole.
01:53:34 <alise> To a certain extent, my hopes were fulfilled. We got a git server in California."
01:54:01 <cpressey> coppro: ML for the Working Programmer
01:54:08 <cpressey> it's not bad.  but it is ML
01:54:16 <alise> Anything ending "for the Working Programmer" sounds like something to avoid.
01:54:37 <cpressey> alise: I believe it's a pun on "Category Theory for the Working Mathematician"
01:54:46 <cpressey> well, not pun.  play
01:54:50 <alise> ah.
01:54:52 <alise> bad marketing then :)
01:54:58 <alise> cpressey: *Categories, I think
01:55:02 <alise> if google serves me right
01:55:09 <cpressey> could be
01:55:13 <alise> yes, it is
01:55:15 <alise> just checked
01:55:16 <coppro> never heard of categories theory
01:55:22 <alise> Categories for the ...
01:55:24 <alise> silly
01:55:36 <alise> category theory is cool, even if i will never understand it
01:56:12 <coppro> just go to grad school in pure math
01:56:34 <coppro> (in other news, <3 going to a real math school)
01:56:36 <alise> coppro: like, right now?
01:56:46 <coppro> alise: obviously!
01:56:50 <alise> i'll be there in twelve hours.
01:57:01 <alise> coppro: your job is to secure my admission
01:57:09 <coppro> alise: I'm sick
01:57:16 <coppro> I demand a three-hour extension
01:57:30 <alise> coppro: granted. but you also have to give me money, too.
01:57:33 <pikhq> So. VirtualBox it is. *mutter*
01:57:40 <pikhq> Damned snapshots.
01:57:44 <pikhq> And sucking.
01:57:48 <pikhq> Especially sucking.
01:58:25 <coppro> Interesting thing I learned last week: if k divides n, the kth Mersenne number divides the nth Mersenne number.
01:58:53 <alise> BUT WHAT IF K DOESN'T DIVIDE N, COPPRO?!?!?!?!
01:58:58 <alise> WHAT THEN?!
01:59:02 <alise> WHAT THE *FUCK* THEN?!!?!:@?!?!?!
01:59:07 <cpressey> somebody think of the children
01:59:09 <alise> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
01:59:13 * alise sobs
01:59:20 <coppro> alise: It's okay, I haven't proven it yet
01:59:29 <alise> coppro: YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT PEOPLE
01:59:39 <alise> ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS YOUR MATHEMATICS, PROVING THINGS AND RUINING PEOPLE'S LIVES!
01:59:46 <alise> WAKE UP, COPPRO! WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!
01:59:58 <Gregor> Mathematics and pooppyness.
02:00:16 <alise> Gregor: that's going to be the title of coppro's phd thesis
02:00:42 <alise> Mathematics and pooppyness: a method to remove undesired comments from a networked computer conversational system.
02:00:55 <alise> yes, his phd thesis is on /ignore
02:01:29 <alise> Google are testing self-driving cars on the actual road, without the driver actually driving.
02:01:31 <alise> How is that legal?
02:01:39 <alise> And why?
02:01:40 <pikhq> VirtualBox has the *concept* of copy-on-write images. It just doesn't let you create them outside of its retarded conception of "snapshots".
02:02:00 <alise> "With someone behind the wheel to take control if something goes awry and a technician in the passenger seat to monitor the navigation system"
02:02:02 <alise> YES, BUT.
02:02:08 <coppro> alise: ohgodihopenot
02:02:15 <alise> coppro: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html
02:02:20 <alise> coppro: or was that the phd thesis thing
02:02:25 <alise> you were going ohgodihopenot to
02:02:37 <coppro> one or the other
02:02:43 <alise> anyway only in sil. val. and if you live there you deserve what you get
02:02:54 <alise> (how does one appreciate silicon(e) valley?)
02:02:59 <coppro> also, it would be really awesome if the police were to go and bust them for it
02:03:02 <alise> siliconE-Valley
02:03:10 <alise> coppro: it's probably legal, if they're doing it
02:03:11 <alise> somehow
02:03:20 <alise> but imagine if it drove slightly over the speed limit due to a rounding error
02:03:24 <coppro> probably has to do with freedom of speech or something
02:03:24 <alise> and they got pulled over
02:03:29 <alise> driver with his hands down by his side
02:03:32 <coppro> hah
02:03:42 <alise> oh man, how great would it be if it pulled over automatically?
02:03:46 <alise> or -- even better --
02:03:51 <alise> ran away automatically
02:03:53 <alise> whenever it sensed police
02:03:58 <coppro> even better
02:04:01 <coppro> driver falls asleep
02:04:02 <alise> VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
02:04:06 <alise> coppro: :D
02:04:10 <alise> automatic car chase up a mountain
02:04:12 <alise> with the driver asleep
02:04:59 <coppro> or, if it was driving off of google maps, did something dumb like crash into a closed road
02:05:08 <coppro> or a nonexistent one
02:08:19 <cpressey> < alise> coppro: it's probably legal, if they're doing it
02:08:32 <cpressey> corporation is doing x.  therefore x is probably legal.
02:08:40 <cpressey> man, i wish.
02:09:17 <alise> cpressey: well.
02:09:21 <alise> if the NYT knows about it.
02:09:25 <alise> google certainly aren't ultra-silent
02:09:35 <alise> otherwise they would have detailed their OMG INVESTIGATION
02:09:38 <alise> to find out who's behind it
02:09:55 <cpressey> maybe.
02:10:50 <alise> "The car can be programmed for different driving personalities — from cautious, in which it is more likely to yield to another car, to aggressive, where it is more likely to go first."
02:11:00 <alise> Building a car-driving AI with an "aggressive" option: worst idea ever, or worst idea ever?
02:11:23 <Gregor> BEST
02:11:24 <Gregor> IDEA
02:11:24 <Gregor> EVER
02:11:42 <Gregor> Then just deploy it in your favorite belligerent country.
02:11:44 <Gregor> Suddenly people are getting run down.
02:11:49 <Gregor> Nobody can identify who's running them down.
02:11:55 <Gregor> Kim Jong Il gets hit by a car ...
02:12:09 <alise> xD
02:12:16 <cpressey> wait, this presupposes north korea has roads
02:12:27 <alise> it does.
02:12:31 <alise> the tour buses drive on them
02:12:36 <alise> or is that trains? no. bus.
02:13:03 <pikhq> cpressey: They have extremely overbuilt road infrastructure.
02:13:16 <pikhq> You see, being able to show off highways is a source of national pride.
02:13:36 <pikhq> Having enough cars to make your 8-lane highway necessary is un-Juche.
02:13:37 <cpressey> then, thanks to the google murder car, it shall be their undoing!
02:14:43 <coppro> s/enough/
02:15:41 <cpressey> what's something large and obscure and complex that I can build from source
02:15:55 <alise> pikhq: 8-lane? srsly?
02:16:08 <pikhq> alise: Pyongyang only, but seriously.
02:16:13 <alise> :D
02:16:29 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:18:31 <pikhq> Well, because I'm actually using VirtualBox for this... Might as well see how well its 3D support works.
02:18:39 <Gregor> It has 3D support?
02:18:57 <pikhq> Gregor: It has fully-functional OpenGL support and experimental Direct3D support.
02:19:13 <alise> WineDirect3D, it's called
02:19:16 <alise> The name scares me greatly.
02:19:23 <pikhq> The Direct3D support, you need to go into safe mode to install.
02:19:28 <alise> doubly scary
02:19:36 <alise> [#4 SIZE:3,041.1MiB/3,396.4MiB(89%) CN:5 SPD:795.6KiBs ETA:07m37s]
02:19:36 <Gregor> ... hm.
02:19:37 <alise> hum de dum
02:19:39 <pikhq> It has to replace the d3d library.
02:19:40 <alise> this better be good
02:21:31 <pikhq> To be *perfectly* fair to all this, I'm going to try something I know actually works tolerably in WINE.
02:22:14 <cpressey> GO
02:22:16 <cpressey> totally
02:22:21 <alise> cpressey: what
02:22:24 <pikhq> Half-Life 2.
02:22:35 <alise> half-life 2 works tolerably in wine?
02:22:38 <alise> noted.
02:22:55 <pikhq> Steam is slower than hell, but yeah, it works just fine.
02:22:57 <alise> what about 1? :P
02:23:08 <pikhq> Half-Life 1 works 200% perfectly.
02:23:16 <Gregor> Half-Life 1 X-D
02:23:16 <pikhq> (that is to say, better than on Windows)
02:23:17 <alise> try as I might, I cannot think of anything stupider than steam
02:23:18 <Gregor> What a challenge.
02:23:20 <alise> why does steam even exist
02:23:25 <alise> Gregor: to be fair, WINE sucks shit
02:23:35 <Gregor> alise: WINE is fucking incredible.
02:23:39 <cpressey> you.... need ed to build Go
02:24:00 <alise> cpressey: dude, it's from the plan 9 guys
02:24:05 <alise> it even uses the plan 9 c compilers to compile it
02:24:09 <alise> and the same toolchain model
02:24:10 <alise> and linker
02:24:14 <alise> so yes, of course it freaking uses ed
02:24:20 <alise> Gregor: even Worms: Armageddon isn't a sure thing with wine
02:24:32 <cpressey> alise: ...
02:24:40 <alise> oh wait
02:24:46 <alise> cpressey: is this Go the board game, some computer version
02:24:48 <alise> or Go the language
02:24:49 <Gregor> The fact that any given program may or may not work under WINE is not a statement against WINE, regardless of how simple or complicated that program is.
02:25:00 <alise> Gregor: Yes it is, since WINE aims for Windows compatibility.
02:25:12 <cpressey> alise: doesn't matter, i've given up already
02:25:16 <cpressey> fuck this shit
02:25:20 <alise> cpressey: oh yeah, requiring ed
02:25:20 <Gregor> ANY GIVEN PROGRAM != lots and lots of programs.
02:25:22 <alise> that's so horrible
02:25:27 <alise> ed, the one thing guaranteed to be on any unix system
02:25:32 <alise> how could they possibly use it in their build system
02:25:39 <cpressey> alise: that's not ... look n/,
02:25:49 <alise> look n/,
02:25:50 <alise> what
02:25:57 <cpressey> never mind
02:26:05 <alise> please correct your line
02:26:19 <cpressey> "Alise, that's not... look, never mind."
02:26:20 <Gregor> Well, that's not look n/.
02:26:23 <Gregor> You must admit that.
02:28:20 <alise> HA! It actually just downloaded it from one source
02:28:27 <alise> and a torrent
02:28:30 <alise> so that's why it was a bit slow
02:28:31 <alise> oh well
02:29:39 <cpressey> alise: how, pray tell, shall i atone for my double ignorance that Go, the language, is from "the plan 9 guys" and that this means that "of course it freaking uses ed"?
02:30:10 * cpressey sacrifices a goat again
02:30:11 <alise> cpressey: You know... of all the things I could say to annoy you, picking on one that I didn't even say angrily probably isn't the best start.
02:31:44 <cpressey> i guess i should just get used to it
02:33:27 <alise> cpressey: haha sweet, PACKET commands aren't working
02:33:31 <alise> when booting pc-bsd in a vm
02:33:34 <alise> DAMN YOU PACKET MODE
02:34:35 <alise> "BIOS drive A: is disk0
02:34:40 <alise> BIOS drive C: is disk1"
02:34:46 <alise> Does the BIOS have a concept of drive letters?
02:34:58 <pikhq> alise: I've found that games using OpenGL pretty much "just work".
02:35:22 <coppro> or "just don't work"
02:35:30 <coppro> depending on your graphics card
02:35:32 <alise> pikhq: Worms: Armageddon is 2D, and the menu interface is done by drawing a Windows window with buttons and shit behind the rendered UI.
02:35:35 <alise> Oh, and text boxes.
02:35:45 <pikhq> alise: Hooray, crazy shit.
02:35:48 <alise> I know this because when it freezes you can see blank text boxes and buttons arranged in just the right shape.
02:36:00 <alise> pikhq: Surprisingly, for a game released in 1997, it is *still regularly updated*.
02:36:00 <alise> As in.
02:36:02 <alise> Actual features.
02:36:03 <alise> Polish.
02:36:04 <alise> etc.
02:36:09 <alise> A proprietary game at that.
02:36:27 <pikhq> That's... Crazy.
02:36:29 <pikhq> But awesome.
02:36:42 <alise> Why? Because some guy made this cheating software for it and everyone got angry, then he wrote another piece of software with the same name, that *disabled* the cheating software when playing over the 'net, and added some little useful features.
02:36:58 <alise> Then the company were like "ok you clearly know your shit, here, have a salary and the source code".
02:37:04 <alise> And... he's still at it, even after all these years.
02:37:05 <pikhq> That's totally awesome.
02:37:34 <alise> So you can play that game from 1997 at full widescreen resolution, and it's insanely polished. :)
02:37:54 <alise> A few sprites were even updated some years back just to look a little bit nicer while keeping in with the others.
02:38:34 <pikhq> '99, not '97. Still awesome.
02:38:44 <pikhq> Erm, no.
02:38:52 <pikhq> '99 was the last "official" release, rather than "beta".
02:38:59 <pikhq> Still.
02:39:06 <zzo38> The BIOS does have drive numbers. The BIOS assumes there can be up to 128 floppy drives and up to 128 hard drives.
02:39:08 <alise> Erm, yeah, 1999.
02:39:22 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, the game has been in "beta" ever since ... well, ever since years and years ago.
02:39:29 <alise> So in that community, "beta" means "updated".
02:39:39 <alise> This is because the patches were beta because they were experimental.
02:39:46 <alise> And then nobody bothered to make them not beta.
02:40:32 <alise> pikhq: BTW, it's a great game; highly recommended.
02:40:43 <alise> Turn-based artillery with, like, ten cupfuls of ridiculousness.
02:40:48 <pikhq> I've played Worms before. :)
02:40:51 <alise> Right.
02:40:57 <alise> pikhq: Ever played online? It's a whole new world.
02:41:01 <pikhq> Nope.
02:41:04 <alise> In fact, "regular" games are rather rare there; people are awful creative.
02:41:07 <coppro> <3 Team17
02:41:17 <alise> For instance, one of the most common game is a shopper.
02:41:31 <alise> You have to get a crate -- they fall every turn -- before attacking. You have to drop the attack from a rope.
02:41:48 <alise> And you have to kill the leader (or the second if you're the leader). (Or all but the last player, as a variant.)
02:42:08 * coppro must have
02:42:20 <alise> Then you get things like ropers, with a very limited set of weapons and the same rules as a shopper, but played on a two-island map and with just the right amount of water that you can knock someone in without drowning when you land. (Yeah, that's weird.)
02:42:24 <alise> Oh yeah, and the turn time is 15 seconds.
02:42:26 <alise> A bit frantic.
02:42:28 <alise> coppro: must have what?
02:42:31 <alise> W:A?
02:42:40 <alise> Hmm, it actually doesn't have the colon. Whatever.
02:42:55 <alise> If you do mean WA, I'm rather surprised that you know of Team17 but don't own it.
02:43:10 <pikhq> God dammit.
02:43:23 <pikhq> Steam has stopped supporting Win2k.
02:43:34 <alise> Sucks Tobe you.
02:43:37 <alise> Yes indeed, you suck Tobe.
02:43:41 <Gregor> Suck Tobe, you!
02:44:23 <coppro> alise: I have never actually acquired a worms game, yet I have played them regularly at others' places
02:44:35 <coppro> mainly because I keep forgetting
02:44:38 <Gregor> (Tobe's place)
02:44:46 <alise> coppro: You can only buy the Sold-Out version now I think.
02:44:52 <alise> And I don't really know if Team17 make more than a penny of that.
02:45:00 <alise> Piracy half-recommended.
02:45:10 <coppro> sounds about right
02:45:28 <alise> I'm not sure *why* they pay Deadcode and I think CyberShadow now to maintain the game.
02:45:39 <alise> Maybe for fan goodwill. :)
02:46:42 <pikhq> Some corporations list goodwill as assets in their yearly reports for the stock exchange...
02:47:36 <coppro> alise: because they are friggin awesome
02:47:49 <alise> That they are.
02:47:53 <alise> They are perhaps the coolest games company ever.
02:47:58 <coppro> definitely up there
02:47:59 <alise> Except maybe Introversion.
02:48:11 <coppro> worms 3d isn't all that bad either
02:48:22 <pikhq> BTW, the last update came out 2 years ago...
02:48:42 <coppro> which is impressive, given that it's a 3d artillery game
02:48:56 <alise> pikhq: well.
02:49:01 <alise> pikhq: after iterating for that many years
02:49:02 <alise> what more can you do?
02:49:10 <alise> but -- as far as i am aware it is still being developed
02:49:10 <pikhq> alise: Okay, true.
02:49:15 <alise> coppro: worms 3d is pretty bad but not that bad
02:49:22 <alise> after worms 4 they decided "fuck this 3d bullshit"
02:49:26 <alise> and now they only do 2d
02:49:34 <alise> they released a new 2d worms game for pc but it doesn't look all that hot
02:49:53 <alise> [[In February 2004, a small group of fans launched a Team17 fansite called Dream17. The company gave Dream17 permission to make their entire Amiga back-catalog of games available as free downloads in both ADF and IPF disk image formats.]]
02:49:55 <alise> coppro: pikhq: ^
02:49:58 <alise> WHO IS THAT AWESOME?
02:50:13 <alise> "Our old Amiga games? Sure, you can post all of those. For free."
02:50:30 <pikhq> alise: That's pretty dang awesome.
02:51:15 <coppro> I lol at how EA handled the old C&C games
02:51:15 <pikhq> alise: Oh, I found CyberShadow's Worms blog.
02:51:34 <alise> link me? xD
02:51:41 <pikhq> http://blog.worms2d.info/
02:51:48 <alise> he's actually on my msn list... although i forget why
02:51:49 <coppro> "Here, have it free. You can download a patch at [dead third-party link]"
02:51:51 <pikhq> Seems that WINE works if you just use a different DirectDraw DLL.
02:52:01 <pikhq> And the next patch will have it work out-of-the-box.
02:52:05 <alise> ah yes, that
02:52:24 <alise> the people online can be a bit lame
02:52:30 <alise> they're v. noob intolerant at least when i played
02:52:45 <pikhq> Yes, they're working on WINE support.
02:52:53 <alise> recite the rules to the game (e.g. "afr cba abl" for a shopper (attack from rope, crate before attack and all but last)) or get kicked instantly
02:52:54 <pikhq> If only everyone could be so awesome.
02:53:02 <alise> "In other news, our Wine users may be delighted to know that starting with the next Worms Armageddon update, they will no longer need a patched DirectDraw DLL. W:A will run out of the box!"
02:53:03 <alise> <3
02:53:14 <pikhq> If only everyone could be so awesome.
02:53:16 <alise> http://dump.thecybershadow.net/408ac203082e5044bded2e7bdacd84e0/screen0557.png
02:53:20 <alise> OMG THINGS TO TWEAK
02:53:21 <alise> I LIKE
02:53:41 <alise> "Force Wine virtual desktop".
02:53:46 <alise> ...why can't everyone have Wine-specific options? :P
02:53:56 <alise> pikhq: HAHA: http://dump.thecybershadow.net/a9c47ea3f6ef7937363241e912825274/screenshot.png
02:54:07 <alise> Worms World Party is the same as Worms Armageddon except it never got updated and the graphics were cutesy and shit.
02:54:19 <alise> So that, right there, is an outright admission that Worms World Party is the shitty version of W:A.
02:55:33 <pikhq> alise: HAH
02:56:00 <alise> http://blog.worms2d.info/mountain-sheep ;; wat
02:56:05 <alise> In which a sheep is magical.
02:56:46 <alise> hey they finally added clickable links
02:57:03 <alise> pikhq: Fun fact: The online WA system is based on *IRC*.
02:57:12 <coppro> wait, really?
02:57:16 <alise> pikhq: That's why it's #AnythingGoes, etc. They're IRC channels. That's how the chat works. There's even a help bot.
02:57:17 <alise> coppro: BUT
02:57:20 <alise> Don't get too excited.
02:57:25 <alise> They really hate it when you connect with an IRC client.
02:57:27 <alise> Or, well, did.
02:57:32 <alise> I think they probably care less nowadays.
02:57:34 <alise> But still...
02:57:37 <alise> You gotta admire that decision.
02:57:46 <alise> "So, we have rooms that people can chat in... okay, let's just use IRC."
02:57:55 <coppro> yeah, IRC is a significantly saner choice
02:58:00 <coppro> don't reinvent the wheel
02:58:17 <alise> It even has an MOTD :)
02:58:31 <alise> Oh, and there has been a few third-party servers released over the years, I dunno if any ones are public/current.
02:58:42 <alise> coppro: The login-system -- which no longer requires a password unlike the old days -- is inexplicably based on HTML.
02:58:45 <pikhq> alise: Beautiful.
02:58:55 <alise> You have a list of Wormnet servers in your game installation as an HTML file, which the game displays customly.
02:59:03 <alise> You click them, and it goes to an HTML login page on the server, which is custom-processed somehow.
02:59:10 <coppro> Oo
02:59:17 <alise> So you can actually edit the server list -- but getting it to actually connect to something else is a chore.
02:59:22 <alise> I think I got some server software working once.
02:59:32 <alise> But still, that's a dual IRC/HTTP/WormNet server you have to have there.
02:59:37 <alise> Not simple!
03:00:03 <coppro> in all honesty, I'd probably just implement most of the client protocol over DCC for something like Worms
03:00:06 <alise> http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5736 tool-assisted speedrun of a rope race level
03:00:13 <alise> coppro: err, latency is a real problem
03:00:18 <alise> the actual game has to be super-optimised
03:00:24 <coppro> oh, really?
03:00:24 <alise> because a lot of people with suboptimal net connections play it
03:00:28 <alise> even one or two dialuppers
03:00:30 <coppro> ah, fair
03:00:33 <alise> coppro: you see them moving while their turn is giong
03:00:34 <alise> *going
03:00:37 <alise> and have chat at the same time
03:00:41 <alise> so yeah
03:00:47 <alise> it's not like it just shows you what they do after the fact
03:00:50 <alise> you see what they see
03:01:30 * alise watches http://lex.clansfx.co.uk/worms/movies/Lex%20-%20TAS%20of%20Pi%27s%20Mission%20Impossible%202%20rope%20race%20-%2021.86%20sec%20-%20no-death%20ending.x264.avi
03:02:13 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
03:02:24 <alise> omg
03:02:26 <alise> watch that video now
03:02:28 <alise> it is hilarious
03:03:14 <pikhq> Nice.
03:03:18 <alise> coppro: hey, Lex is in Waterloo too!
03:03:22 <alise> at least as of 2007-07
03:03:29 <alise> maybe he goes to your uni :)
03:04:21 <Rugxulo> ?
03:05:02 <alise> Rugxulo: people.
03:05:30 <Rugxulo> <alise> entrant in my Most Xenophobic Comment of the Year award
03:06:50 <Rugxulo> no, I just think Unicode is a bit overrated, that's all
03:07:00 <alise> you think everything invented post-1990 is overrated
03:07:09 <Rugxulo> pretty much!
03:07:36 <Rugxulo> well, make that 1993 and you're correct   ;-)
03:08:00 <coppro> alise: unlikely but possible?
03:08:17 <coppro> alise: can you get a full name?
03:08:25 <alise> coppro: "Lex, the worms guy"
03:08:32 <alise> i uh, i did talk to him at one point
03:08:37 <alise> not sure about full name though :D
03:08:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: How's Unicode overrated?
03:09:07 <coppro> alise: I could check if he's (or if someone of the same name is, anyway) at the uni with a full name
03:09:08 <Rugxulo> make that Unicode support is overrated
03:09:18 <Rugxulo> or hard to do, anyways
03:09:25 <Rugxulo> for questionable benefit (in some situations)
03:09:41 <pikhq> How's Unicode support overrated?
03:09:55 <alise> pikhq: because we're AMERICAN!
03:10:01 <alise> and we don't need any other languages!
03:10:07 <Rugxulo> my philosophy is more minimalist than "add everything and the kitchen sink and deprecate everything every 2 years"
03:10:11 <alise> coppro: can't you just search for everyone named Lex/Alex :D
03:10:19 <coppro> alise: I suppose I could try
03:10:34 <alise> Rugxulo: yes, because everyone who speaks a non-English language should be ignored for your silly philosophy designed solely so that you can claim everything modern is bloated
03:10:53 <Rugxulo> no, and I didn't say that
03:10:56 <Rugxulo> ;-)
03:10:59 <coppro> alise: too many higts
03:11:03 <Rugxulo> I just don't like modern OSes and all their crap
03:11:04 <coppro> *hits
03:11:26 <alise> Location
03:11:26 <alise> Guelph, Ontario
03:11:32 <alise> coppro: never mind.
03:11:39 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Are you aware what the alternative to Unicode (or something similar) is?
03:11:43 <alise> coppro: he may have graduated.
03:11:56 <alise> Date of Birth
03:11:56 <alise> October 26, 1987 (22)
03:12:15 <coppro> ah
03:12:16 <Rugxulo> I didn't say NLS / i18n / etc. is bad, just sometimes overkill and bloated and hard to implement and ....
03:12:26 <pikhq> I'll tell you. It's hundreds of entirely different and inherently incompatible character encodings.
03:13:00 <coppro> Unicode is the best thing to happen to character encodings since the invention of the letter
03:13:34 <Rugxulo> BTW, wasn't Unicode invented in like 1993? (so maybe it's not so bad after all, heh)
03:13:44 <pikhq> And the bloat (yes, *bloat*) necessary to be able to parse *each and every one of them* everywhere that more than one encoding is needed.
03:13:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: 1991.
03:14:06 <pikhq> (and keep in mind that there's generally more than one encoding per language!)
03:14:19 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I'm not quite the rube you think I am (though close enough!)
03:14:36 <Rugxulo> I'm just saying, some things don't need to be internationalized
03:14:43 <zzo38> I have some problems with Unicode also, but I can think of a different way to make the code supporting all language and other things, too. One thing is to make a code point number encode all properties necessary to typeset/parse a character
03:15:22 <Rugxulo> besides, most programs still don't have NLS text for their interfaces (e.g. GNU Emacs)
03:15:24 <zzo38> Another way is that it includes variation mode and various other modes, too.
03:15:52 <Rugxulo> standards are good ... to a point, but sometimes they are overkill or badly designed or heavily ignored or whatever
03:16:10 <zzo38> Rugxulo: Yes I think in many cases that is
03:16:38 <pikhq> For English, there's ASCII, ISO 8859-1, Windows-1252, EBCDIC, Mac OS Roman, ANSEL.
03:16:59 <pikhq> Oh, and code page 437.
03:17:17 <Rugxulo> pikhq, some people never supported all the 8859-x ones at all, only Latin-1 (at best) despite them being designed at the same time (at least the first four)
03:17:27 <Rugxulo> 1986, IIRC
03:17:37 <Rugxulo> so that's just lame, so much for standards ... the fact is nobody cares   :-(
03:17:46 <pikhq> Yes, you'd need to handle 7 different character encodings *just to handle arbitrary English text*.
03:18:03 <Rugxulo> not really
03:18:13 <Rugxulo> but I admit there's quite a lot of incompatible data out there
03:18:33 <pikhq> And this is for a relatively simple set of glyphs.
03:18:55 <pikhq> It gets even more horrifying if you look into CJK.
03:19:44 <Rugxulo> it may sound good to support every language under the sun, but that gets tedious (and expensive)
03:20:43 <Rugxulo> face it, some languages are more equal than others   :-(
03:21:14 <pikhq> It's trivial to make it possible to *deal with text* in every language under the sun.
03:21:22 <pikhq> Just implement Unicode.
03:21:40 <Rugxulo> and how many glyphs, ten thousand??
03:22:06 <cpressey> Unicode is UTF-8
03:22:15 * cpressey deep troll
03:22:23 <zzo38> UTF-8 is one way of encoding Unicode characters
03:22:30 <zzo38> The other way is UTF-16
03:22:40 <Rugxulo> or UTF-32 (Emacs??)
03:23:59 <Rugxulo> I just hate modern computers, they're so horribly inefficient
03:24:19 <Rugxulo> I shouldn't blame Unicode for that, but it hasn't helped!
03:24:20 <Gregor> There are plenty of ways.
03:24:22 <pikhq> JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212, JIS X 0213, Shift-JIS, code page 932, ISO-2022-JP, EUC-JP.
03:24:32 <Gregor> UTF-8, UCS-1, UTF-16, UCS-2, UTF-32 and UCS-4 are some of them.
03:24:33 <pikhq> All this *just for Japanese text*.
03:24:37 <Gregor> Some of those may be equivalent :P
03:24:44 <Gregor> Also, UTF-16-LE is different from UTF-16-BE.
03:24:45 <Gregor> Same for -32
03:24:52 <pikhq> And here's the thing. You need to implement *all of them* for a Japanese localisation.
03:25:02 <cpressey> Also, UTF-99, which I just made up.
03:25:25 <pikhq> Also, UTF-9 and UTF-18, which are real things.
03:25:32 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes yes. Japanese sucks. And everybody who speaks it (through tar-filled lungs) is terrible. WE KNOW!
03:25:45 <Gregor> Oh, and UTF-7, right?
03:25:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Written Chinese is worse.
03:26:15 <cpressey> "through tar-filled lungs"?  I suddenly suspect there are whole layers of meaning here that I'm not catching
03:26:31 <Gregor> cpressey: All Japanese men smoke. ALL OF THEM.
03:26:34 <pikhq> Hong Kong, Taiwan, and PRC all defined their own completely different standards, you see.
03:26:37 <pikhq> cpressey: He's right.
03:26:44 <Rugxulo> I'm in favor of whatever works, just some things work so badly / slowly / or not at all !!!!
03:27:05 <cpressey> That's interesting.  It never occurred to me before.  But it's probably true.
03:27:08 <Rugxulo> Hong Kong is part of PRC now (but I digress...)
03:27:17 <pikhq> Rugxulo: They still do their own standards.
03:27:28 <Gregor> It's owned by the PRC, but it's politically mostly-distinct for the time being.
03:27:34 <Rugxulo> Taiwan is too (according to PRC) but they disagree
03:27:43 <alise> taiwan is not owned by the prc
03:27:50 <alise> in any sense but according to the prc's fantasy world
03:27:58 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Unicode is the *only thing* that works for handling international text, and just about the only thing that works for single-language text.
03:28:03 <cpressey> My Neighbors the Yamadas
03:28:15 <Rugxulo> single-language? uh ... heh
03:28:28 <pikhq> (English could get away without it if we could *just agree on ASCII*. But no, have to expand the higher 7 bits)
03:28:28 <Gregor> alise: And yet, it is the official policy of any country wanting to do trade with China (e.g. us) that Taiwan IS owned by the PRC.
03:28:52 <pikhq> Gregor: The official policy of the US is that Taiwan both IS and ISNT owned by the PRC.
03:29:21 <pikhq> Gregor: We both don't recognise Taiwan as a seperate country and legally mandate that they are a seperate country.
03:29:30 <Gregor> Sweet :P
03:29:58 <pikhq> Oh, and we are legally obligated to supply them with as many arms as they request.
03:30:53 <cpressey> quantum mechanics meets foreign policy
03:30:57 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Are you familiar with mojibake (文字化け)?
03:31:02 <Gregor> Well, if Taiwan actually went to war with China, there is no question that we would take Taiwan's side.
03:31:04 <Rugxulo> no
03:31:42 <pikhq> It's what happens when text in one character encoding gets interpreted as a different encoding.
03:32:18 <Gregor> pikhq: PLEASE tell me the name comes from something simple interpreted in the wrong encoding?
03:32:43 <Rugxulo> pikhq, Esperanto? (yeah, I knew you'd hate that) ... just saying, Unicode is fine in moderately reasonable doses   ;-)
03:32:43 <pikhq> The *only* languages that has this end up in even slightly readable text are the ones using the Roman alphabet, because most encodings are a superset of ASCII.
03:32:47 <pikhq> Gregor: Nope.
03:33:03 <Gregor> pikhq: D'awwwww :(
03:33:10 <pikhq> Gregor: We are legally obligated to take Taiwan's side.
03:33:23 <pikhq> Gregor: "Changed characters", BTW.
03:33:33 <Gregor> pikhq: We're legally obligated to respect the land claims of Native Americans.
03:33:36 <Rugxulo> we still have troops in dang Korea, for freak's sake!!! it's been 60 years!!!
03:33:43 <coppro> it's still a war
03:33:56 <Rugxulo> heh, those krazy korean gov'ts
03:34:12 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yeah, we are still at war with North Korea. So... Yeah.
03:34:26 <alise> pikhq: wasn't it ended recently
03:34:30 <Rugxulo> we who? U.S.?
03:34:48 <Rugxulo> it's all a formality
03:34:49 <Gregor> America was never officially at war with N. Korea was it? It was a UN police action, so there was no formal declaration of war from us? Or is that a total lie?
03:34:51 <Rugxulo> we're not really at war
03:35:01 <alise> YOU DON'T SAY
03:35:16 <Rugxulo> 1950-3 was the Korean War, very bloody, U.S. vs. Chinese???
03:35:24 <pikhq> alise: Nope.
03:35:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: In 1953, the *cease fire* was signed.
03:36:38 <pikhq> Rugxulo: "We" being the United Nations.
03:37:17 <pikhq> Under the command of the USA.
03:38:30 <pikhq> Ah, apparently the war is de jure between the South and the North, with the US in command of the South.
03:39:15 <pikhq> Still not over.
03:49:06 <cpressey> i don't know any programming languages from south korea.
03:49:12 <cpressey> know of.
03:49:35 <cpressey> no, that's not true.
03:49:47 <cpressey> the only programming language from south korea i know of, is an esolang.
03:55:09 <Rugxulo> there was a guy who made a Han-capable Forth
03:55:18 <Rugxulo> hForth perhaps (I forget)
03:55:26 <Rugxulo> and yes, I've heard of that Korean esolang, barely
03:55:49 <Rugxulo> hForth ran in DOS, no less    ;-)
03:56:26 <Rugxulo> yeah, I dunno, computers got too complicated somewhere along the way, now nobody can barely use them they're so confusing and inefficient
03:56:58 <Rugxulo> all because pikhq had to have his silly Unicode    ;-)    j/k
03:58:47 <pikhq> Hey, just because I demand Unicode doesn't mean I want complexity.
03:58:55 <Rugxulo> I know, it was a joke
03:59:10 <Rugxulo> I don't hate Unicode, really, and I'm no xenophobe  :-P
03:59:17 <pikhq> I still think DOS was a decent OS, for instance. :P
03:59:40 <pikhq> Limited, to be sure, but there's a certain charm to it as well.
03:59:52 <Rugxulo> extremely minimal, upgraded in very small pieces, modular (though not really portable)
04:00:12 <Rugxulo> I mean, when the IBM PC 5150 only came with 16 kb of RAM (!), what else could you run???
04:00:19 <pikhq> CPM.
04:00:20 <pikhq> :)
04:00:28 <Rugxulo> CP/M-86 wasn't out yet
04:00:34 <Rugxulo> and was way more expensive
04:00:51 <pikhq> Beside the point.
04:01:46 <Rugxulo> nowadays you need at least 200 kb free just to run DOS (bloat!!!)   ;-))
04:03:24 <Rugxulo> it just bugs me when people act like you can't even edit a text file without 600 MB of RAM
04:03:42 <Rugxulo> and yes, there are a few different Unicode editors for DOS (of varying abilities)
04:09:31 <alise> bnobody acts like that
04:09:33 <alise> strawman fallacy
04:10:34 <Rugxulo> yes they do
04:13:05 <alise> no they do not
04:14:25 <Rugxulo> anyways, gotta reboot
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04:26:47 <cpressey> i want to see more languages like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgoPl35n_AY
04:26:52 <cpressey> but i don't suppose i will
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04:39:39 <oerjan> <alise> (what is it about BSDs that attracts drama, btw?) <-- it's right there in the name.  bondage, sadomasochism and drama.
04:44:07 <alise> goodnight
04:44:07 <alise> bye
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04:51:48 <cpressey> oerjan: you keep some unusual hours
04:52:05 <oerjan> yes.
05:14:06 <oerjan> <cpressey> the only programming language from south korea i know of, is an esolang.
05:14:19 <oerjan> we _do_ have a regular from there, you know
05:14:30 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Tokigun
05:15:18 <pikhq> WHY THATS CLEARLY NOT SOUTH KOREAN. ONLY AMERICA HAS INTERNET
05:15:43 <pikhq> Hrm. Wait. lifthrasiir is from South Korea?
05:15:54 <oerjan> /whois says so
05:16:04 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Never realised.
05:16:28 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Incidentally, what's the etymology of lifthrasiir and/or tokigun?
05:16:41 <cpressey> the esotope project, too
05:16:52 <oerjan> pikhq: he's been idle for 11 days so don't expect _too_ quick an answer
05:16:53 <cpressey> i had not realized.
05:17:27 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, well, I'm patient.
05:19:57 <coppro> TASes are so ridiculous
05:21:16 <pikhq> Robot. Cars.;
05:21:23 <pikhq> Google has a fleet of robot cars.
05:21:39 <coppro> we discuessed this already
05:21:44 <pikhq> Yes, but whoa.
05:22:01 * oerjan finds User:Puzzlet Chung, User:SteloKim, User:Tokigun and User:Gs30ng
05:24:00 <oerjan> And the languages Aheui, Udage and Versert.
05:28:20 <cpressey> The Versert link was broken for me though :(
05:31:08 <oerjan> http://mearie.org/projects/versert/ works
05:33:25 * cpressey edits wiki
05:35:51 <oerjan> i presume that might end up in korean for some people
05:35:59 <oerjan> they probably won't complain :D
05:36:02 <coppro> it's unclear if the registers have unbounded space or not
05:36:03 <coppro> which is vital
05:36:25 <oerjan> (it complained to me about not having a norwegian version)
05:36:50 <pikhq> Is it *actually doing language negotiation*?
05:37:05 <pikhq> Wonderful.
05:37:41 <pikhq> Though, the English sucks.
05:37:50 <oerjan> pikhq: sssh ;D
05:38:21 <pikhq> It's obviously human-written English, though. Which helps a lot.
05:38:40 <pikhq> Hell of a lot easier to read through grammar mistakes than through the sheer randomness that is machine translation.
05:41:04 <cpressey> oerjan: no norweigian for YOU, oerjan!
05:41:23 <pikhq> Only Swedish Chef!
05:41:30 <oerjan> Faens utlendinger som ikke kan snakke ordentlig!
05:42:09 <pikhq> Something about utlanning?
05:42:11 <cpressey> actually i liked the vlaah-python page, only available in Hangul.  Of course, the Python example code is englishish.  So you can try to figure out what the package provides, sort of!
05:42:26 <oerjan> pikhq: utlanning isn't a word
05:42:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Is in English.
05:42:47 <pikhq> :D
05:42:53 <oerjan> wat
05:43:13 <pikhq> ... Granted, mostly in the context of the Ender's Game series, by Orson Scott Card, but still.
05:43:48 <pikhq> oerjan: Strangers of one's own species & culture.
05:43:55 <oerjan> ah.  it's obviously from swedish utlänning.
05:44:03 <pikhq> Yup.
05:44:57 <oerjan> in which case yeah, that's a cognate to what i wrote.
05:45:07 <pikhq> Likewise with framling, varelse, and djur.
05:45:49 <oerjan> norwegian would be fremmed, vesen, and dyr.
05:46:18 <oerjan> ...i think.
05:46:43 <pikhq> Literally, "stranger", "being", and "animal".
05:46:57 <oerjan> yes.
05:47:55 <pikhq> Referring to a stranger of one's own species but different culture, an intelligent species with which communication is impossible, and monsters, respectively.
05:48:32 <pikhq> (ramen, coming from who-knows-where, refers to another intelligence species with which communication & peaceful coexistence is possible.)
05:49:41 <oerjan> not raman? that's what showed up in the google hits for utlanning
05:50:02 <pikhq> Raman might be singular, hell if I know.
05:50:31 <pikhq> English is such a whore when it comes to vocabulary.
05:56:16 <coppro> trebly so for made-up vocabulary
05:56:38 <coppro> (and yes, I did just say that so I could use 'trebly' in a sentence)
05:56:58 <pikhq> coppro: Vejn
05:57:35 <oerjan> hm there is an adjective "rå", meaning raw.  maybe it's a composition...
05:57:44 <coppro> pikhq: means nothing to me
05:58:14 <pikhq> coppro: "Win".
05:58:15 <oerjan> given that the last part is pluralized like man/men
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06:14:16 <pikhq> The BBC has estabilished a new guideline for science reporting.
06:14:34 <pikhq> All science news stories must now link to the paper in question.
06:20:08 <Slereah> Is it because of that satyrical article
06:28:10 * lifthrasiir back
06:31:41 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: lifthrasiir comes from Lífþrasir; tokigun roughly translates to Mr. Rabbit ("Toki" + "-gun"). I have chosen them to simply avoid duplicates.
06:32:03 <lifthrasiir> (and not using arbitrary numbers)
06:33:47 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Meaning of Lífþrasir?
06:33:52 <Ilari> Unfortunately, they still can report total garbage papers that shouldn't have been published (due to severe shortcomings) as gospel...
06:34:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir
06:34:11 <oerjan> norse myth
06:34:14 <coppro> More unfortunately, what if they can't link the journal because it isn't available online?
06:34:15 <lifthrasiir> Yup
06:34:21 <pikhq> Aaah.
06:34:38 <lifthrasiir> coppro: DOI?
06:34:44 <oerjan> clearly he's aiming to be the one to survive 2012, here
06:34:47 <coppro> DOI?
06:35:12 * pikhq finds it somewhat curious that Korean also has honorific suffixes...
06:35:29 <lifthrasiir> Digital object identifier. Mainly used for unique identification of documents, like papers.
06:35:40 <coppro> oh
06:35:49 <coppro> that's not a link!
06:35:50 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: That IS headache even for native speakers.
06:35:58 <Ilari> Like papers that mix up animal fats and techno fats... All the relevant scientists should know better not to do that kind of "research".
06:36:04 <oerjan> pikhq: i've read that korean grammar parallels japanese in many ways
06:36:21 <pikhq> oerjan: From what I've seen of Korean grammar, it's fucking uncanny.
06:36:21 <lifthrasiir> coppro: That's shame, but that would be the best approximation to links...
06:36:56 <pikhq> Which *suggests* to me that Korean & Japonic are actually related languages.
06:37:04 <pikhq> Well Language families.
06:37:13 <oerjan> pikhq: or they might have had a strong sprachbund
06:37:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Damned strong sprachbund.
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06:38:08 <pikhq> ... And would have to have been rather long ago...
06:38:23 <pikhq> The apparently-cognate grammar features have been in both languages at least as long as they've been written.
06:38:54 <oerjan> pikhq: i read at one time that there are two languages in india in neigboring village or so that have exactly parallel grammars, but one is dravidian and the other indo-aryan
06:39:01 <oerjan> *villages
06:39:37 <oerjan> (well that last part should also be considered vague)
06:39:56 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: I can imagine the honorifics are a headache. Sure are in Japanese.
06:40:05 <oerjan> pikhq: but are the endings _phonetically_ similar?
06:40:45 * oerjan didn't have that impression, although he hasn't actually _seen_ examples
06:45:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, there are a number of proposed cognates...
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06:48:53 <pikhq> Still, hard to demonstrate without a time machine.
06:49:36 <pikhq> (the proposed Altaic cognates are merely *plausible*...)
06:51:44 <pikhq> Oh, and it's hard to just go out and point out random cognates in the two languages *now* because there's so much borrowing from Chinese that fully half of the vocabulary is cognate now.
06:52:33 <oerjan> sf idea: a korean/japanese researcher far in the future takes a time machine back to japan/korea to settle the matter.  naturally he ends up founding the language he goes to investigate - a thousands of years descendant of the other
06:52:42 <oerjan> *back to ancient
06:52:53 <pikhq> That would be pretty great.
06:54:17 <oerjan> actually all the chinese loans might mess up that theory a bit...
06:55:10 <oerjan> maybe have a competing researcher from the other country for nice time-loop ness
07:03:10 <pikhq> Well, except the Chinese loans are one of the best documented things in linguistics.
07:04:15 <pikhq> The words composed from originally-Chinese morphemes are freaking called 漢語 [kango] (Chinese words) in Japanese.
07:07:31 <oerjan> i mean they would mess up the time travel theory :D
07:07:43 <pikhq> Ah.
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08:08:42 <cheater00> pikhq: i have this theory that japanese comes from the mongolian empire somehow
08:09:48 <cheater00> japanese is syntactically very similar to hungarian and finnish
08:10:16 <cheater00> if you think about the expansion of the mongolian empire, that's where the troops have or would have stopped if they started in mongolia
08:11:22 <cheater00> that went on for many years, certainly long enough to teach the locals how to write and to start talking with them (mongolians were not xenophobic, they cooperated with the skilled workers of the nations they were trying to conquer in fact)
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08:36:39 <Gregor> Gee.
08:36:48 <Gregor> VSTi's are better than SoundFonts.
08:36:53 <Gregor> In retrospect, duh.
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08:44:49 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-vst-2010-10-10.ogg Observe how my op. 11 string quartet becomes almost tolerable when played through a (free!) VSTi!
08:45:13 <Gregor> Not as good as it would be on real instruments, but an enormous improvement from anything else I've been able to do thusfar!
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09:56:09 <augur> happy 42 day!
10:01:20 <cheater99> only in 10 minutes
10:01:39 <cheater99> then it'll be 10/10/10 10:10:10 !!!
10:01:50 <augur> O_O
10:01:51 <cheater99> UTC!!!!!!
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10:04:19 <oklopol> so in fact i had an alarm clock beep me up at the most important second of my life
10:04:27 <augur> oklopol!
10:04:29 <oklopol> well i was up already but anyway
10:04:32 * augur pounces oklopol
10:04:36 <oklopol> oh dear
10:04:49 <oklopol> yay kebab place opened
10:05:02 * augur eats oklopol's kebab
10:05:08 <oklopol> :(
10:05:14 <oklopol> well aren't you being mean
10:05:18 <augur> not that kebab ;o
10:05:23 <oklopol> ...oh!
10:05:27 <augur> yes!
10:05:37 <augur> the one made of lamb meat and yogurt sauce and pita!
10:05:45 <augur> om nom nom
10:05:50 <oklopol> well that's okay i can just buy two
10:06:19 <augur> night
10:07:19 <oklopol> good morning, sleep warning.
10:07:36 <oklopol> well that was stupid
10:07:40 <oklopol> have to take a dump ->
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10:13:53 <cheater99> oh wait
10:13:55 <cheater99> gmt is now utc+1
10:14:00 <cheater99> so utc is in one hour
10:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwhat?
10:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> BST is definitely still in effect.
10:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, that's what you meant.
10:22:42 <cheater99> Ubuntu 10.10 Maverick Meerkat is released today (10/10/10) to get "the perfect 10"
10:22:44 <cheater99> haha
10:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god.
10:34:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Should I bother doing a full dist upgrade today?
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11:03:55 <cheater99> yes
11:03:57 <cheater99> you should
11:04:12 <cheater99> ais523: happy 10/10/10 10:10:10.10101010101010101010..
11:04:13 <cheater99> !
11:04:38 <ais523> cheater99: heh
11:04:43 <ais523> I was aware that time was coming up
11:04:43 <cheater99> it's in 7 minutes
11:04:45 <cheater99> make a wish
11:04:48 <ais523> not for me it isn't
11:04:50 <ais523> I'm in UTC+1
11:04:58 <cheater99> obv it's about UTC
11:05:06 <cheater99> i'm in UTC+2
11:17:20 <oklopol> utc+2 ftw!
11:19:36 <ais523> hmm, North Korea just got its own TLD
11:19:47 <ais523> that they actually run themselves, rather than delegating to the Chinese
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11:38:23 <cheater99> cool, i have never noticed that ubuntu has someplan9 packages
11:38:27 <cheater99> some plan9 packages
11:38:44 <cheater99> 9wm is an X window manager which attempts to emulate the Plan 9 window
11:38:44 <cheater99> manager 8-1/2 as far as possible within the constraints imposed by X.
11:38:53 <cheater99> 9base is a port of following original Plan 9 userland tools to Unix:
11:38:53 <cheater99> awk, basename, bc, cat, cleanname, date, dc, echo, grep, mk, rc, sed, seq,
11:38:53 <cheater99> sleep, sort, tee, test, touch, tr, uniq, and yacc.
11:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. The Software Centre has started offering software to buy.
11:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if this counts as shark-jumpery.
12:08:35 <fizzie> I'm not sure it counts, since they said they're going to when they introduced the Software Centre.
12:11:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, was that shark-jumpery?
12:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> After all, they make all kinds of rhetoric about freedom.
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12:18:41 <fizzie> Yes, you see, you are free to not buy stuff. (They'll be introducing a limit of minimum monthly purchases in 2012; if you buy less than that, it'll start to disable features like 3D acceleration one by one.)
12:18:45 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: not true.)
12:28:03 <ais523> fizzie: if they did do that, someone would just patch it out
12:28:14 <ais523> so they probably wouldn't try, so as to not spoil their reputation
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12:48:07 <ais523> // In C there is no boolean type; a condition is true if
12:48:13 <ais523> // it equals 1 and is false otherwise.
12:48:22 <ais523> // For clarity, we can define some preprocessor aliases.
12:48:26 <ais523> #define TRUE  1
12:48:28 <ais523> #define FALSE 0
12:48:34 <ais523> hmm...
12:48:51 <ais523> (I'm teaching a bit of C as well as Java, now; if this is what I have to work from, it could be "interesting"...)
12:52:40 <oklopol> so apparently all discrete math is done in CS in most unis, so people who do research on the topological aspects of cellular automata will get to teach a bit of java as well
12:53:09 <oklopol> i'm certainly lucky to live in this particular university
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12:53:49 <fizzie> ais523: That sort of thing is just asking for someone to fail all "if (isalpha(c) == TRUE)"-like.
12:53:58 <ais523> I agree
12:54:05 <ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get
12:54:32 <ais523> (are the ctype.h functions the only standard library ones that can return booleans that aren't 0/1?)
12:56:51 <fizzie> ais523: isfinite() and isinf() are defined to return "a nonzero value".
12:57:03 <fizzie> And isnan/isnormal/signbit too.
12:57:06 <ais523> good to know
12:57:23 <ais523> presumably, that's in case they're implemented with bit-twiddling on the float value interpreted as an int
12:57:27 <ais523> which is a plausible way to do it on some platforms
12:58:12 <fizzie> Also: "The raise function returns zero if successful, nonzero if unsuccessful."
12:58:32 <fizzie> But that's not very "boolean" anyway.
12:58:34 <oklopol> RAISE?
12:58:36 <oklopol> *raise
12:58:42 <fizzie> The thing that sends a signal.
12:58:48 <oklopol> oh
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13:03:18 <cheater99> who here eats muesli?
13:03:38 <oklopol> i would if someone bought them
13:03:57 <cheater99> i have found the ultimate muesli fruit
13:04:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:05:08 <cheater99> i guess that's not that interesting though
13:05:31 <oklopol> :)
13:08:44 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:09:35 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
13:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there some deep and meaningful connection between the harmonic numbers and ln?
13:53:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
13:53:56 -!- oklopol has joined.
14:02:40 <cheater99> yes
14:02:44 <cheater99> the riemann zeta function
14:04:41 <cheater99> In the limit of n\rightarrow \infty, the generalized harmonic number converges to the Riemann zeta function
14:04:41 <cheater99>     \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} H_{n,m} = \zeta(m).
14:05:08 <cheater99> H_n = H_n,1 of course
14:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And where does ln fit in?
14:13:21 <cheater99> well it's very simple
14:14:01 <cheater99> \Zeta' (0, 1+a) = \Zeta' (0, a) + ln a
14:19:03 <cheater99> i think i have finally found a media player which is cooler than deadbeef
14:19:06 <cheater99> it is aqualung
14:25:36 <cheater99> hm
14:26:07 <cheater99> when a WPA2 PSK authentication happens, one side sents out the salted hash of the key, and the other side computes their own version, and checks the hashes for equality, yes?
14:30:56 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:35:51 <fizzie> I assumed the PSK mode doesn't really do any authentication exchanges, it just derives the main CCMP encryption key from the passphrase. There's a MAC in the packet anyway, so wrong-key packets get discarded. But that was completely a guess, I've never looked into how it works.
14:42:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:44:34 <oerjan> 00:09:48 <cheater00> japanese is syntactically very similar to hungarian and finnish
14:44:38 <oerjan> 00:10:16 <cheater00> if you think about the expansion of the mongolian empire, that's where the troops have or would have stopped if they started in mongolia
14:44:58 <oerjan> unfortunately the timing is _severely_ off for that theory.
14:46:09 <oerjan> as in, any relation between hungarian/finnish (uralic languages) and japanese predates the mongol empire (1200's) by thousands of years.
14:47:25 <oerjan> btw the uralic languages are one of the _best_ attested language families, iirc it was the first to be discovered.
14:49:50 <oerjan> also both finnish and hungarian have been seriously europeanized.  in fact just today i saw hungarian listed as the one non-indoeuropean language in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
14:51:04 <oerjan> (finnish isn't quite as affected - it has no articles for one thing, although neither does some other eastern european languages such as russian and polish.)
14:52:01 <oerjan> however one europeanization i recall that finnish has but not hungarian is adjective/noun agreement
14:52:48 <oerjan> (there might be others i just don't know about)
14:54:44 <oerjan> cheater: oh and one even more damning fact: japan was never conquered by the mongol empire :D
14:55:24 <oerjan> (actually i don't think the finns were either, not sure about the hungarians)
14:55:48 <oerjan> (the finns were already busy being conquered by the swedes)
14:56:02 <oklopol> what's adjective/noun agreement?
14:56:24 <oerjan> oklopol: case and number, iirc in finnish
14:56:33 <oklopol> yeah
14:56:57 <oerjan> of course other languages have gender as well / instead, and norwegian and swedish have definiteness
14:57:35 <oerjan> while in hungarian adjectives are not inflected for case or number unless they're used alone
14:57:59 <oklopol> what about estonian?
14:58:01 <oklopol> i should know
14:58:01 <oerjan> in fact even _nouns_ aren't inflected for number if there is an actual number word before them
14:58:12 <oerjan> i don't know about estonian
14:58:18 <oklopol> you should
14:58:34 <oerjan> it's pretty close to finnish but i don
14:59:10 <oklopol> heheheheh you accidentally
14:59:11 <oerjan> 't know if it has agreement, given that that was borrowed afaiu from other european languages
15:00:41 <oklopol> "<oerjan> novay" oh because it sounds a bit like nivat
15:01:05 <oerjan> (as for verb/noun agreement, hungarian has _more_ of that than either finnish or the others ... but basque has even more i've read)
15:01:52 <oerjan> (in hungarian in addition to person/number agreement with the subject there is also definiteness agreement with the _object_)
15:02:05 <oerjan> oklopol: took you long enough ;D
15:03:49 <oklopol> "<oklopol> you've hallucinated?" "<oklopol> are you still in that institution thing" <<< my train of thought may be embarrassingly obvious :D
15:03:58 <oklopol> "oh so maybe he really was crazy!"
15:04:11 <oklopol> (disclaimer: i don't remember what my train of thought was)
15:04:31 <oerjan> it probably ran off the tracks, crashed and exploded
15:06:30 <oklopol> oerjan is funny
15:06:46 <oklopol> oerjan: did you play piano as a kid
15:07:31 <oerjan> i recall there were two attempts to teach it to me
15:08:01 <oklopol> but did your parents send you to take piano lessons
15:08:03 <oerjan> however, the complete lack of a piano in our home probably did not help
15:08:15 <oklopol> or like your cousin tried to teach you something
15:08:21 <oklopol> ah okay
15:08:35 <oklopol> then it makes sense
15:08:58 <oerjan> well it was lessons, somewhat
15:09:30 <oerjan> i think i got started on either Madeleine of Für Elise, not quite sure which is which
15:09:30 <oklopol> well i didn't expect any kind of dedication, although maybe more than 2 lessons
15:09:41 <oerjan> maybe it was one each time
15:09:42 <oklopol> fur elise is 767672530
15:10:01 <oklopol> dunno madeleine by name
15:10:32 <oklopol> that's chromatic scale, e eb e eb e h d c a on the retarded scale
15:10:38 <oerjan> one of the teachers was the neighboring kid.  he went on to a career as a musician, as did his brother
15:11:38 <oklopol> so you lived in a small neighborhood
15:12:02 <oklopol> i guess that makes sense, have you lived in trondheim all your life
15:12:07 <oerjan> um no
15:12:08 <oklopol> or whateverheim
15:12:30 <oerjan> i come from a small town by the name of Sandnessjøen
15:13:09 <oklopol> did you move to trondheim with your parents or later on by yourself
15:13:15 <oklopol> what color underwear do you prefer
15:13:23 <oerjan> i moved to trondheim to start university
15:13:34 <oklopol> but alone?
15:13:39 <oerjan> my parents never moved
15:13:40 <oklopol> that much was obvious
15:13:42 <oklopol> okay
15:13:55 <oklopol> that's all
15:13:59 <oklopol> FOR NOW
15:14:11 <oerjan> well apart from my dad moving house within the town
15:15:23 <oklopol> so... are your parents divorced?
15:15:33 <oklopol> that's not very that was ally
15:15:39 <oklopol> soprry
15:15:51 <oklopol> *sorry
15:15:57 <oerjan> oh it was probably adeline not madeleine
15:15:58 <oklopol> guess i'm not completely sopr yet huh?!?
15:16:24 <oerjan> hey you were ordered to stop pretending!
15:16:30 <oerjan> divorced when i was 10
15:16:52 <oklopol> ?
15:16:53 <oklopol> oh
15:17:11 <oklopol> i didn't see that coming
15:17:36 <oklopol> hmm
15:18:02 * oerjan didn't know adeline was that new, thought it was something classic
15:18:36 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uk2q1dP_t8  ?
15:19:22 <oklopol> here? i have something to say to you. ou realy wanna make feels people, the begenning it have to be slow and feel what are you playing. i know that it beautiful how you played but you need feelings.
15:19:37 <oerjan> yep
15:19:43 <oerjan> (that was it)
15:19:44 -!- nooga has joined.
15:19:58 <nooga> ;f
15:20:21 <oklopol> nooga: do you wanna make feels people?
15:20:31 <oerjan> ...i'm starting to think you really _are_ drunk
15:20:43 <oklopol> :D
15:22:00 <oklopol> i've had this tiny hangoverlet all day, but the only thing i was gonna do today was referee this paper and that tiny bit of not being at my 100%est makes that impossible
15:22:04 <oklopol> so i've just been staring at this computer
15:22:27 <oklopol> my point being: i referee papers now, isn't that just so cool
15:22:39 <oerjan> i didn't know hangoverlets gave you atrocious spelling
15:23:04 <oklopol> where did i fail at spelling?
15:23:06 <oklopol> oh
15:23:11 <oklopol> that youtube comment?
15:23:18 <oerjan> oh it was a paste? :D
15:23:18 <oklopol> that was a youtube comment, actually
15:23:29 <oerjan> ok that makes more sense then :D
15:23:42 <oklopol> i would have to be pretty drunk to tell someone they play well but lack FEELING
15:24:01 <oklopol> if you bash the right keys at the right time, you're playing perfectly
15:24:37 <oerjan> ...i think there is more to it than just timing
15:25:01 <oklopol> well, all notes must be bashed at the same force
15:25:03 <oklopol> maximal force
15:25:19 <oerjan> ...TOO MUCH FEELING
15:25:32 <nooga> oklopol: whaaa?
15:25:43 <nooga> hangoverlet :D
15:26:00 <oerjan> nooga: it's a perfectly cromulent word
15:26:07 <nooga> cromulent :D
15:26:27 <oklopol> -let is an all-purpose diminutive suffix
15:26:41 * oerjan wonders if nooga is failing at memes there
15:26:47 <olsner> ... and cromulent itself is probably *the* most cromulent word there is
15:27:06 <oerjan> olsner: especially in this situation
15:27:22 <nooga> yeah
15:27:34 <nooga> i didn't know that
15:28:05 <oerjan> well now you've been embiggened
15:28:06 <oklopol> what i've always wanted to know is whether memes have always existed
15:28:36 * oerjan hasn't even seen that episode
15:28:55 <oklopol> erm
15:28:57 <oklopol> whoosh
15:29:08 <oerjan> but absorbing memes from the internet, yessir
15:29:09 <oklopol> <- whoosh here
15:29:29 <oklopol> <- bad case of the whooshs
15:29:37 <oerjan> sheesh
15:29:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_the_Iconoclast
15:31:10 <oklopol> oh that's from simpsons :D
15:31:24 <oklopol> i thought it was xkcd :D
15:32:21 <oklopol> "<oerjan> but absorbing memes from the internet, yessir" <<< you think even internet memes have always existed?
15:32:26 <oklopol> that's a bit radical imo
15:34:05 <oerjan> where did i say that
15:34:21 <oklopol> oh you were referring to oh okaty
15:34:24 <oklopol> okaty tokayt
15:34:38 <oklopol> i knew i misunderstood, but didn't feel like thinking so i asked
15:34:53 <oerjan> yeah thinking is _so_ last millennium
15:35:31 <oklopol> yeah it's so last interval between two non-primitive words
15:35:55 <oklopol> i mean
15:36:08 <oklopol> wem
15:36:10 <oklopol> *erm
15:36:15 <oklopol> hard to explain, surely you see what i mean
15:36:52 <oklopol> (hint: what's special about today)
15:37:13 <oerjan> as for whether memes have always existed, i recall someone pointing out how much of shakespeare's work consists of long forgotten inside jokes
15:37:37 <oerjan> or forgotten by everyone not a shakespeare scholar, anyway
15:38:10 <oklopol> yes yes but did you get me
15:39:30 <oerjan> as for special about today i'm well-prepared, as the VG paper had an article about kids with their 10th birthday today
15:39:46 <oklopol> for everybody's convenience, w^+ is primitive if there is no u in A^+ and n > 1 such that w = u^n
15:39:49 <oklopol> erm
15:40:00 <oklopol> *... w \in A^+ is primitive ...
15:40:29 <oklopol> and vg is...?
15:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, that out-pointing was by Randall Munroe.
15:40:47 <oerjan> second largest norwegian newspaper
15:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Q.E.D.
15:40:51 <oklopol> okay
15:41:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ah.
15:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> He phrased it as "hey, I've read annotated Shakespeare look how insightful I am."
15:42:07 <oerjan> ...haters gonna hate ;D
15:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's just that that one really hit a nerve...
15:43:04 <oklopol> what's annotated shakespeare
15:43:20 <oklopol> like a voiceover
15:43:51 <olsner> or perhaps he was exumed and used as writing paper?
15:44:02 <oklopol> maybe, maybe
15:44:09 * oerjan swats oklopol and olsner -----###
15:44:14 <oklopol> ouch
15:44:36 <oerjan> also, *exhumed
15:45:05 <oerjan> from latin humus, meaning iirc soil
15:45:11 <oklopol> because no one's still acknowledged my joke, 101010101010 = (10)^6, which is not primitive
15:47:12 <oerjan> well just two more years until this stops
15:47:59 <oklopol> there's a non-primitive second next year
15:48:08 <oklopol> 101011101011
15:48:27 <oklopol> but clearly (?) no other one this year
15:48:52 <oklopol> every non-primitive second must have a period of 6
15:48:56 <olsner> oklopol: what does primitive word mean?
15:49:00 <oklopol> i just defined it
15:49:17 <oklopol> for everybody's convenience, w \in A^+ is primitive if there is no u \in A^+ and n > 1 such that w = u^n
15:49:33 <oerjan> oklopol: erm why not 4
15:49:36 <oklopol> this is what combinatorics of words people think of as the "primes"
15:49:42 <oklopol> oh
15:49:44 <oklopol> you got me
15:49:51 <oklopol> also
15:50:11 <oklopol> probably that notation should be biggest to smallest and not a random order like the one that's used in english
15:50:36 <oerjan> also the obvious one next year is of course 111111111111
15:50:52 <oklopol> yeah and
15:51:02 <oklopol> 101011101011 is tomorrow :D
15:51:14 <oklopol> i didn't remember days and months change during a year
15:51:39 <oerjan> oklopol is funny
15:53:14 <oerjan> well from 2024 on there will be fewer non-primitive seconds
15:53:15 <oklopol> i think there should be a trivial reason for why 101010101010 is the only one today
15:53:37 <oklopol> i mean in general
15:54:13 <oerjan> well the period must divide either 4 or 6
15:54:23 <oerjan> and both give the same continuation of 101010
15:54:42 <oklopol> is it true that if w = uv, |u| = |v|, then if w is not primitive, u = v
15:54:49 <oklopol> erm
15:54:56 <oklopol> ofc not...
15:55:33 <oklopol> like for instance 101010
15:56:03 <oklopol> but anyway just one choice for v
15:56:16 <oerjan> nope
15:56:28 <oerjan> 101110 can be continued in two ways
15:56:38 <oklopol> cool
15:56:43 <oklopol> indeed it can
15:57:03 <oerjan> one with period 4, one with period 6
15:57:03 <oklopol> smallest example i think
15:57:10 <oklopol> wait
15:57:15 <oklopol> 121
15:57:20 <oklopol> *010
15:57:27 -!- alise has joined.
15:57:32 <oklopol> (i guess you wanted it for our case)
15:57:42 <alise> moon, boom, go!
15:57:44 <alise> oklopol: omg hi
15:57:46 <alise> you came back<33
15:57:48 <oklopol> hi
15:57:55 <oerjan> what about the moon
15:57:56 <oklopol> yes we're doing higher math with oerjan
15:57:58 <alise> have you lay-ped my game????
15:57:59 <alise> :|
15:58:03 <oklopol> you won't understand
15:58:24 <oerjan> oklopol is being particularly silly today
15:58:25 <oklopol> well umm
15:58:28 <oklopol> let's say i haven't
15:58:32 <oklopol> and see how it goes
15:58:46 <oerjan> probably due to long-time #esoteric abstinence
15:58:50 <oklopol> yeah
15:58:51 <oklopol> probably
15:59:00 <oklopol> your the only thing keeping me together
15:59:03 <oklopol> *'re
15:59:59 <oklopol> there was a conjecture that said something like f, g primitive => fg^+ contains exactly one primitive word
16:00:32 <oerjan> i note that months have smaller range than minutes and days have smaller range than seconds, so only the year itself can prevent a day from having a non-primitive second of period 6
16:00:41 <oklopol> or perhaps s/primitive/unbordered/
16:00:52 <oerjan> this happens from 2024
16:01:17 <oklopol> yeah
16:01:25 <oklopol> good note
16:01:33 <oklopol> but will there be years without any then
16:01:35 <oklopol> well
16:01:36 <oerjan> but 2024-2030 will still have period 4 ones
16:01:43 <oklopol> obviously
16:01:47 <oerjan> er -2031
16:01:56 <oklopol> if you start with 99, you can't get 99 anywhere on the last half
16:02:15 <oklopol> all of them will?
16:02:19 <oerjan> from 2032 those are excluded as well because you cannot have a big enough day
16:02:20 <oklopol> erm hrm
16:02:35 <cheater99> so i'm trying to write a python script that attempts to guess a password based on how long the system takes to reject a password
16:02:41 <cheater99> it just doesn't work :D
16:03:16 <oklopol> period 2's are easy
16:03:39 <oerjan> oklopol: yes but those are all included in 4 and 6
16:03:53 <oklopol> well i guess :D
16:03:56 <oerjan> for this argument
16:03:58 <oklopol> but 3's
16:04:10 <oerjan> are included in 6
16:04:15 <oklopol> huh?
16:04:24 <oklopol> oh erm
16:04:43 <oklopol> period, right, period
16:05:10 <oklopol> yeah okay you're right ofc
16:06:14 <oerjan> 4 and 6 are the maximal proper factors of 12, because 12 only has two prime factors and 4 = 12/3, 6 = 12/2
16:06:33 <oklopol> yeah
16:09:10 <oerjan> lessee
16:09:53 <oklopol> lessee what
16:10:08 <oerjan> 2029/02 is the first whole _month_ without a non-primitive second, i think
16:12:21 <oklopol> so we need to go past 2024, then 25xx25xx25xx works for a while for any month, and same up to 28
16:12:26 <oerjan> then no more until 2030/02, 2031/02, then 2031/04, /06, /09, /11, and all from 2032 onwards
16:12:27 <oklopol> erm
16:12:35 <oklopol> i mean that pattern works for a while
16:12:40 <oerjan> yep
16:13:13 <oklopol> then 290129012901 works, but 290229022902 doesn't, because 2902 is not a leap year
16:13:51 <oerjan> right
16:14:19 <oklopol> we could probably publish this
16:14:27 <oerjan> eek
16:14:40 <oklopol> :D
16:15:29 <oerjan> in that case, i shall follow my tradition of leaving nearly all the actual writing to my co-authors
16:15:38 <oklopol> :D
16:15:48 <oklopol> we'd have a better chance with the toi's tcness proof
16:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you there?
16:16:08 <oklopol> i mean that's what people do in discrete math, come up with a random esolang and program stuff on it
16:16:22 <oerjan> (maybe a slight exaggeration there)
16:16:26 <oklopol> :D
16:16:42 <oklopol> very slight
16:17:21 <oerjan> i was refering to my tradition, not to discrete math.  i'm sure you're _entirely_ accurate there.  yeah.
16:17:21 <cheater99> yay, got it to work
16:17:26 <cheater99> (but i cheated)
16:17:32 <oklopol> ah
16:18:37 <oerjan> cheater99: no surprise there
16:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, what was the method?
16:20:31 <cheater99> perform a statistic on the time it takes the victim to reject your passwords
16:22:23 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:25:33 <impomatic> Is Brainfuck and example of Harvard architecture?
16:25:47 <alise> impomatic: Yes.
16:25:55 <alise> Ubuntu 10.10 is out. Ho hum.
16:26:22 <impomatic> Thought so, wasn't sure if there was a good reason otherwise.
16:26:28 <cheater99> alise: how was your 42 day?
16:26:32 <cheater99> did you make a wish?
16:29:17 <alise> impomatic: well there is always the distinct possibility that i am wrong :D
16:29:22 <oerjan> wait you can make a wish?  it's still not over here...
16:33:02 <alise> http://www.ubuntu.com/sites/default/files/active/maverick/U2.1_photos_01_large.jpg ITT: Totally Not iPhoto
16:35:05 <alise> http://www.ubuntu.com/sites/default/files/active/maverick/U2.1_games_01_large.jpg What... what the hell are these meant to be? Strangest Worms clone ever.
16:35:35 <alise> What, they're hedgehogs.
16:35:50 <oklopol> clearly they are just worms wearing masks
16:38:07 <alise> [[03:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. The Software Centre has started offering software to buy.]]
16:38:08 <alise> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
16:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, so you agree with the shark-jumpery?
16:39:38 <alise> Yes. I thought they dropped that idea when they renamed it from Store to Centre.
16:39:53 <alise> I may refuse to upgrade out of protest and to have an excuse not to bother.
16:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my /home is now on a separate partition, so I'm all up to some OS changing.
16:40:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Kitten.
16:40:18 <alise> Or Quadrant or whatever I'll call the damn thing!
16:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Mitosis?
16:40:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mitosis isn't going to evolve into a usable OS for about 10 years :P
16:40:40 <alise> And it's more like a bunch of experiements.
16:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What's Quadrant, then?
16:40:48 <cheater99> are those jpg's of things you can buy?
16:40:54 <alise> A UNIX-alike operating system.
16:41:06 <alise> Not a Linux distro, since it's quite possible that it'll be based on BSD.
16:41:13 <alise> But it will be nice!
16:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, the Software Centre is trying to be the App Store.
16:43:37 <cheater99> eh
16:43:40 <cheater99> i guess that's ok
16:43:51 <cheater99> windows is the only thing that doesn't have one now
16:43:56 <cheater99> ha ha ha, windows! ha, ha!
16:44:03 <cheater99> and osx too
16:44:04 <cheater99> ..
16:44:11 <cheater99> lol@u's
16:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider, though, the implications.
16:44:17 <cheater99> also: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11494729
16:44:32 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: people get paid for their work. earth-shattering.
16:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, we are talking about "Freedom freedom happy happy" OS, remember?
16:46:09 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: there is about a quintillion commercial applications you can pay for on ?n*x|bsd
16:46:24 <cheater99> s/?/*
16:47:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:49:15 <fizzie> It does make the hype on the home page -- "Ubuntu applications are all free and open source – so you can share them with anyone you like, as often as you like" -- a tiny bit misleading, though. Not that I claim everything in Software Centre should be counted in "all -- Ubuntu applications", but still.
16:49:40 <cheater99> that's misleading indeed
16:51:47 <cpressey> < pikhq> The BBC has estabilished a new guideline for science reporting. < pikhq> All science news stories must now link to the paper in question.
16:51:51 <cpressey> Bravo for them
16:55:01 -!- antivigilante has joined.
16:55:32 <alise> cpressey: yes -- behind a paywall.
16:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Still better than being given the link to the journal's site.
16:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Or worse, a university's.
16:56:32 <alise> indeed
16:56:41 <alise> we need an organised system for pirating papers :)
16:56:50 <alise> a website where you post a reference of some sort, and an anonymous benefactor posts the pdf
16:57:00 <alise> and it's emailed directly to you or something, so it doesn't go through the server
16:57:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:00:38 <cpressey> < ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get  <-- C is always taught like this in universities though.  "This function returns a void * for abstraction" is another one of my favourites
17:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what's that in response to
17:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
17:02:17 <alise> < ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get
17:03:38 <oklopol> the correct way to teach c is not to
17:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, the correct way to teach C is after something else.
17:04:02 <oklopol> although i'm also of the opinion that everyone should know c
17:04:14 <Gregor> void * is the greatest bottom ever.
17:04:17 <oklopol> so maybe i'll agree with yours
17:04:23 <Gregor> TAKE THAT IN WHICHEVER WAY YOU WISH
17:04:39 <oklopol> i get it :DD (i think)
17:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, void * isn't a bottom type, is it?
17:06:16 <Gregor> Not technically, since only pointer types convert to it.
17:06:24 <Gregor> But I'm a heap kinda guy :P
17:07:13 <alise> I said what what, in the void *
17:07:31 <cpressey> < oerjan> (actually i don't think the finns were either, not sure about the hungarians) <-- the mongols got just short of hungary, it seems
17:09:58 <Gregor> pikhq, Idonno maybe Vorpal or somebody?, whoever might care: http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg Op. 11 string quartet, done by VSTi's, borderline tolerable (and slightly better than it was last night)
17:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> op12 is the nonexistent one, yest?
17:11:25 <oklopol> HORRIBLE BULLSHIT MAN
17:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> *yes
17:11:29 * oklopol listens
17:12:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes
17:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, why?
17:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Was it not meant for mortal ears to hear?
17:13:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Because when it was 20 minutes long I went "wow, this is garbage"
17:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> How garbage?
17:14:16 <Gregor> Not garbage enough that nothing was salvaged for op. 13, but garbage enough that a lot wasn't :P
17:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> What was garbagoid about it?
17:16:26 <Gregor> It had no consistency, so it just droned on and on.
17:16:33 <alise> Gregor: Sounds good to me!
17:16:35 <Gregor> Nothing to tie it together.
17:16:43 * alise links 9/11 to 23 in simple, easy steps
17:16:57 <Gregor> I have WIPPs of it, feel free to listen to it.
17:17:33 <alise> 9/11, backwards is 11/9 = 0.2 recurring. 2 = 1+1. So it's 0.1+11+11+11+1, and so on. 1+11 = 12. So 0.12+11+11+1, and so on. 12+11 = 23. Q.E.D.
17:19:01 <Gregor> OMG NUMEROLOGY PROVES THAT YOU'RE EVIL
17:22:35 <oklopol> Gregor: too little pazazz for my taste, this music doesn't in any way *force* me to listen to it
17:23:02 <alise> Gregor: Why are you GRegor and not Gregor
17:23:07 <alise> Is your name Gregor Regor Richards?
17:23:16 <oklopol> what
17:23:20 <Gregor> oklopol: YOU MUST LISTEN TO IT! YOU MUSSSSST! Also, the main thing the VSTi's are doing in my opinion relative to an (imagined) real performance is muddying things.
17:23:23 <alise> "http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg"
17:23:28 <Gregor> alise: Yup
17:23:40 <alise> Gregoregoregoregoregoregoregoregoregor
17:23:48 <Gregor> Actually my name is Gregor Regor Egor Gor Or R Richards
17:23:52 <oklopol> oh that's what was going on
17:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> `choo Gregor
17:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Gregor
17:24:31 <fungot> Gregor regor egor gor or r
17:24:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Gregor Richards
17:24:44 <fungot> Gregor Richards regor Richards egor Richards gor Richards or Richards r Richards  Richards Richards ichards chards hards ards rds ds s
17:24:47 <HackEgo> No output.
17:24:51 <alise> ^scramble Gregor Richards regor Richards egor Richards gor Richards or Richards r Richards  Richards Richards ichards chards hards ards rds ds s
17:24:51 <fungot> Geo ihrsrgrRcad grRcad o ihrso ihrsrRcad Rcad ihrsihrscad ad rsrsd ss d dasrhsrh dac dacRsrhi srhi  dacRr dacRrgsrhi oesrhi oe dacRrgr
17:25:04 <alise> Gregor: Your new name is "Geo Ihrsrgr Rcard".
17:25:12 <alise> *Rcad
17:25:14 <Gregor> It's Dutch.
17:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo and Gregor are one and the same!
17:25:26 <alise>  ^choo Sgeo
17:25:31 <alise> ^choo Sgeo
17:25:31 <fungot> Sgeo geo eo o
17:25:37 <alise> ^scramble Sgeo geo eo o
17:25:38 <fungot> Se e oo eogog
17:25:41 <alise> ^choo Seth Gold
17:25:42 <fungot> Seth Gold eth Gold th Gold h Gold  Gold Gold old ld d
17:25:46 <alise> ^scramble Seth Gold eth Gold th Gold h Gold  Gold Gold old ld d
17:25:46 <fungot> St odehGl hGl  od odGl l dd ldodo lG lGhdo tdo t lGhe
17:25:53 <alise> Sgeo is now St odeh'Gl.
17:25:53 <Gregor> ^chew Sgeo
17:25:57 <Vorpal> <Gregor> pikhq, Idonno maybe Vorpal or somebody?, whoever might care: http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg Op. 11 string quartet, done by VSTi's, borderline tolerable (and slightly better than it was last night) <-- will listen in a bit, atm the listening conditions are rather bad due to loud powertools close to here
17:26:04 <Gregor> ^choo Satan MacGee
17:26:04 <fungot> Satan MacGee atan MacGee tan MacGee an MacGee n MacGee  MacGee MacGee acGee cGee Gee ee e
17:26:07 <alise> ^cho Phantom Hoover
17:26:07 <fungot> Phantom Hooverhantom Hooverantom Hooverntom Hoovertom Hooverom Hooverm Hoover HooverHooverooveroververerr
17:26:12 <alise> ^scramble Phantom Hooverhantom Hooverantom Hooverntom Hoovertom Hooverom Hooverm Hoover HooverHooverooveroververerr
17:26:12 <fungot> PatmHoehno ovrno ovrtmHoetmHoeo ovr ovrHoeHoeovrvreerrrveoeorvorvo eoHmeoHmrvo orvo oneoHmtaeoHmtarvo onh
17:26:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is now Patm Hoehno.
17:26:24 <alise> s/://
17:26:32 <olsner> Hoeovrvreerrrveoeorvorvo :D
17:26:46 <Gregor> ^scramble Satan MacGee atan MacGee tan MacGee an MacGee n MacGee  MacGee MacGee acGee cGee Gee ee e
17:26:46 <fungot> StnMce tnMce a aGea aGenMce Mce aGeaGece e ee eeGeG ec ecMeGa eGa  ecMn ecMnteGa aaeGa aa
17:26:54 <Gregor> olsner: It's Cherokee.
17:26:55 <olsner> now that could be an esolang
17:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Elliott Hird
17:27:14 <fungot> Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird  Hird Hird ird rd d
17:27:15 <Vorpal> ^show choo
17:27:15 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:27:20 <Vorpal> ^show cho
17:27:20 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:27:22 <Vorpal> hm
17:27:26 <alise> ^choo Ørjan Johannsen
17:27:26 <fungot> Ørjan Johannsen rjan Johannsen rjan Johannsen jan Johannsen an Johannsen n Johannsen  Johannsen Johannsen ohannsen hannsen annsen nnsen nsen sen en n
17:27:29 <alise> oerjan: (is that right?)
17:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird  Hird Hird ird rd d
17:27:35 <fungot> ElotHr lotHr it idit idotHr tHr  id idHr r dd rdidi rH rHtdi tdi t rHto rHtoldi tildi til
17:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you are now ElotHr.
17:27:46 <Vorpal> alise, I think it fails at utf-8, only to be expected
17:27:46 <alise> Johansen
17:27:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: use ^cho
17:27:54 <alise> to get something longer for me
17:27:59 <alise> ^cho Xrjan Johansen
17:27:59 <fungot> Xrjan Johansenrjan Johansenjan Johansenan Johansenn Johansen JohansenJohansenohansenhansenansennsensenenn
17:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Arvid Norlander
17:27:59 <fungot> Arvid Norlander rvid Norlander vid Norlander id Norlander d Norlander  Norlander Norlander orlander rlander lander ander nder der er r
17:28:04 <alise> ^scramble Xrjan Johansenrjan Johansenjan Johansenan Johansenn Johansen JohansenJohansenohansenhansenansennsensenenn
17:28:04 <fungot> XjnJhnera oasna oasnnJhnenJhne oasnoasnhnehneasnsneennnsenennsansaoenhJenhJnsao nsao aenhJnjenhJnjnsao ar
17:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Arvid Norlander rvid Norlander vid Norlander id Norlander d Norlander  Norlander Norlander orlander rlander lander ander nder der er r
17:28:13 <fungot> AvdNradrri olne i olne dNradrdNradr olne olne radrradrlne ne drdre rr e enrdarda enl enlordarNrdarN enlo  enlo irdarNdvrdarNdv enlo ir
17:28:13 <alise> oerjan is now Øjn Jhnera Oasna
17:28:21 <alise> Avd Nradrri
17:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ^cho Elliott Hird
17:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, I can't pronounce that :P
17:28:34 <fungot> Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:34 <alise> ^choo Chris Pressey
17:28:35 <fungot> Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey  Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:28:39 <alise> ^scramble Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey  Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:28:40 <fungot> CrsPesyhi rse i rse sPesysPesy rse rse esyesyse e yy eysys es esrysePyseP esr  esr iysePsrysePsr esr ih
17:28:48 <alise> Crs Pesyhi Rsei
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:50 <fungot> ElotHrlit idit idotHrotHrt id idHrHridddrrdidi rHtrHtdi tdi tirHtolrHtoldi til
17:28:51 <oklopol> do me!
17:28:51 <oklopol> do me!
17:28:52 <Vorpal> ^cho Elliott Hird
17:28:52 <fungot> Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:52 <oklopol> do me!
17:29:03 <Vorpal> ^scramble Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:29:04 <fungot> ElotHrlit idit idotHrotHrt id idHrHridddrrdidi rHtrHtdi tdi tirHtolrHtoldi til
17:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you know what, you're just Hirdiott.
17:29:12 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:29:14 <Vorpal> ^choo Elliott Hird
17:29:14 <fungot> Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird  Hird Hird ird rd d
17:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ^show scramble
17:29:20 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
17:29:24 <Vorpal> ^scramble Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird  Hird Hird ird rd d
17:29:24 <fungot> ElotHr lotHr it idit idotHr tHr  id idHr r dd rdidi rH rHtdi tdi t rHto rHtoldi tildi til
17:29:31 <oklopol> scramble scramble and run!
17:29:36 <oklopol> that'll be so cool xdxxxD
17:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, "oklopol" is too short.
17:29:59 <olsner> ^scramble >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
17:29:59 <fungot> >,>][][>][><[<]2.2]><>.><<,[>
17:30:16 <Vorpal> heh
17:30:20 <alise> oklopol: is omnivorol the right spelling
17:30:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
17:30:22 <fungot> acegikmoqsuwyzxvtrpnljhfdb
17:30:24 <Vorpal> olsner, wouldn't run alas
17:30:25 <alise> or omniovorol?
17:30:34 <oklopol> ominovorol
17:30:34 <alise> ^choo oklopol omniovorol
17:30:34 <fungot> oklopol omniovorol klopol omniovorol lopol omniovorol opol omniovorol pol omniovorol ol omniovorol l omniovorol  omniovorol omniovorol mniovorol niovorol iovorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:37 <Vorpal> ^scramble >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:30:37 <fungot> >[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:30:40 <alise> ^choo oklopol ominovorol
17:30:40 <fungot> oklopol ominovorol klopol ominovorol lopol ominovorol opol ominovorol pol ominovorol ol ominovorol l ominovorol  ominovorol ominovorol minovorol inovorol novorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it's just reverse and interleave.
17:30:45 <alise> ^scramble oklopol ominovorol klopol ominovorol lopol ominovorol opol ominovorol pol ominovorol ol ominovorol l ominovorol  ominovorol ominovorol minovorol inovorol novorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:45 <Vorpal> hm
17:30:45 <fungot> olploiooo lploiooo oo mnvrloo mnvrlploiooo loiooo  mnvrl mnvrloiooo iooo nvrlnvrlooo oo rlrlo ll o oolrvlrv ooo oooilrvnmlrvnm oooio oooiollrvnm olrvnm o oooiolp oooiolpllrvnm ooklrvnm ook
17:30:49 <alise> lol :D
17:30:50 <Vorpal> that one is balanced
17:30:51 <alise> ^cho oklopol ominovorol
17:30:51 <fungot> oklopol ominovorolklopol ominovorollopol ominovorolopol ominovorolpol ominovorolol ominovoroll ominovorol ominovorolominovorolminovorolinovorolnovorolovorolvorolorolrololl
17:30:55 <alise> ^scramble oklopol ominovorolklopol ominovorollopol ominovorolopol ominovorolpol ominovorolol ominovoroll ominovorol ominovorolominovorolminovorolinovorolnovorolovorolvorolorolrololl
17:30:55 <fungot> olploioookoo mnvrloo mnvrlploioooploioooo mnvrl mnvrloiooooiooomnvrlnvrloooooovrlrloolllroooolrvlrvnoooioooilrvnmlrvnm oooioloooiollrvnm olrvnm oooooiolploooiolpllrvnm ook
17:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Chris Pressey
17:31:01 <fungot> Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey  Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:31:02 <Vorpal> ^bf >[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:31:08 <Vorpal> hm
17:31:09 <Vorpal> wait
17:31:09 <alise> oklopol: you're now Olploioookoo Mnvrloo Mnvrlploioooploioooo
17:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey  Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:31:11 <fungot> CrsPesyhi rse i rse sPesysPesy rse rse esyesyse e yy eysys es esrysePyseP esr  esr iysePsrysePsr esr ih
17:31:11 <Vorpal> just boring
17:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you are CrsPesyhi.
17:31:31 <Vorpal> ^bf >+[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:31:39 <oklopol> i like olploioookoo
17:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But I like Mnvrloo.
17:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> But which is better?
17:32:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There's only one way to find out!
17:32:06 <Mathnerd314> today (101010) is binary for 42... I still can't think of anything special to do.
17:33:11 <alise> Mathnerd314: maybe stop using two-year digit systems, and if you won't do that, stop concatenating them together for no reason, and if you won't do that, stop interpreting them as binary for no reason?
17:33:16 <alise> it is seriously the stupidest day ever
17:33:33 -!- calamari has joined.
17:33:41 <Vorpal> alise, stop being mean to everyone.
17:33:59 <alise> i never once insulted Mathnerd314. shut up.
17:34:07 <Vorpal> alise, you just did?
17:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he insulted 42 day.
17:34:23 <Vorpal> or do you mean "never before"
17:34:27 <oklopol> he was being nice to Mathnerd314
17:34:41 <Vorpal> but yeah, we should use 6 digit years
17:34:52 <oklopol> "oh Mathnerd314, don't worry, you've been wasting time that was in no way special"
17:34:54 <Mathnerd314> alise: I gather you don't like π-day either?
17:35:26 <alise> Mathnerd314: well. :)
17:35:34 <alise> at least it doesn't involve concatenating and then interpreting as binary
17:35:38 * Phantom_Hoover becomes a holy man.
17:35:45 <oklopol> Mathnerd314: there was discussion about the sublattice of non-primitive seconds (of the timeline)
17:35:48 <Vorpal> ^scramble 101010
17:35:48 <fungot> 111000
17:35:51 <Vorpal> hm
17:35:53 <oklopol> if you like non-primitive seconds
17:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, TOTALLY HOLIER THAN THOU
17:36:10 <Vorpal> 56
17:36:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what?
17:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I am a holy man now, BITCH.
17:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That makes me holier than thou.
17:37:10 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how did you become a holy man?
17:37:48 <oklopol> wow
17:37:58 <oklopol> i just completely characterized the sublattice!
17:38:02 <oklopol> it's a chain! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, I... err... didn't eat any... erm... unholy food... for a few days.
17:38:47 <olsner> 2010-10-10 = 1990, welcome to the nineties!
17:38:58 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: pork probably counts as unholy?
17:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, not when I poke a hole in it.
17:39:39 * Mathnerd314 smacks his face
17:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan would swat me, but I stole his swatter a while ago.
17:40:56 <cpressey> < Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how did you become a holy man?
17:41:00 <cpressey> maybe he finally got the hat
17:41:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders where his hat actually is.
17:41:27 -!- antivigilante has joined.
17:42:19 <cpressey> calamari: happy arbitrarily-numbered day!
17:42:25 -!- impomatic has left (?).
17:42:32 <calamari> hi cpressey
17:42:47 <calamari> thanks
17:43:11 <alise> hi calamari
17:43:54 <calamari> I suppose I should party when it is 10:10 am, 10 seconds?
17:45:31 <Gregor> ALWAYS
17:45:59 <cpressey> I wonder if they did this in the year 1010
17:46:03 <cpressey> except without #esoteric
17:46:07 <cpressey> or electricity
17:46:24 <alise> calamari: no, at 1:10am, 1000/99 seconds
17:46:24 <cpressey> or... non-public clocks
17:46:27 <alise> (10.1010101010...)
17:46:48 <calamari> alise: too late
17:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm saving my party for a ninth of a second after 11:11:11 11/11/11.
17:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that's Remembrance Day, so partying may be looked down upon.
17:49:46 <alise> :D
17:49:54 <alise> hold a rave in the silence
18:00:13 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
18:00:50 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how long is it until Padmé appears in RoTS?
18:03:56 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Because that will be the return of Jim, and I am waiting for that.
18:05:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Approximately 25 minutes in.
18:05:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I.e. pretty soon after they've managed to land that thing.
18:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, did you... did you just watch RoTS to work out that time?
18:06:38 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: If you call "skipping ahead in ten-second increments really fast" watching.
18:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I love this place...
18:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, go check the zeroes of the zeta function and see if any of them are non-trivial and with a real part not equal to 1/2.
18:07:50 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover for thinking he has the swatter -----###
18:08:11 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans oerjan for getting a new swatter --==\#/
18:11:40 <cpressey> Combinator syntax question: Conventionally, SKSK = (((SK)S)K)?
18:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:11:55 <cpressey> Thanks.
18:13:35 <oerjan> also that's just K >:)
18:14:24 * cpressey swats oerjan with a left ideal <<INSERT VISUAL OF LEFT IDEAL HERE>>
18:15:06 * oerjan kicks cpressey through an ultrafilter
18:16:33 * Phantom_Hoover swats cpressey ----### and pans oerjan ===\_/
18:17:14 * oerjan well-orders Phantom_Hoover 
18:17:51 * Phantom_Hoover finds oerjan's least fixed point
18:33:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:34:52 <pikhq> Why do people do things like making a torrent with a split rar?
18:35:11 <pikhq> It's not like BitTorrent will cry if the files go over 100 megs!
18:36:29 <coppro> because people are retarded and think split rars have better compressoin
18:36:38 <coppro> they also compress compressed video and the like
18:36:55 <calamari> probably because that's how they downloaded it from a newsgroup
18:40:21 <pikhq> Wait, people think SPLIT RARS have better compression. GAAAH
18:40:48 <pikhq> Isn't rar splitting just... Splitting + metadata?
18:41:00 <coppro> pikhq: remember, these are the SAME PEOPLE who think you get better compressions .RARing a video!
18:41:05 <coppro> and yes, yes it is
18:41:25 <pikhq> coppro: To be fair, if it's an AVI inside, *you do get some benefit*.
18:41:34 <pikhq> (AVI is a very high-overhead format)
18:41:58 <pikhq> Granted, said benefit is going to be like 10 megs, but still.
18:53:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
18:56:45 <cpressey> oerjan: SIIKK is also K, or my evaluator and/or my understanding is broken
18:57:23 <oerjan> mhm
18:58:28 <oerjan> SII(SII)
19:01:19 <cpressey> to my dismay, i gave up on parsing the non-fully-parenthesized syntax, and i'm certain my evaluator could be simpler
19:02:12 <alise> hey, hedgewars is haskell!
19:02:19 <alise> <socket: 94>: Data.ByteString.hGetLine: end of file
19:02:26 <alise> is the quit message for some
19:03:11 <alise> maybe not
19:03:16 <alise> "FreePascal >= 2.2.4"
19:04:03 <alise> hmm it requires haskell though
19:04:11 <alise> maybe just for the server
19:05:50 <alise> pikhq: Why is it so hard to find the ORIGINAL ISO for ag ame?
19:05:51 <alise> *a game?
19:05:58 <pikhq> alise: Because FUCK YOU
19:06:26 <alise> No! I want a RAR of the installed game! I want a 500 megabyte multi-language version of the iso, not just the English version!
19:06:27 <pikhq> "Laik, everyone wants their disc modified, rait?"
19:06:38 <alise> I want a pre-no-CD'd version!
19:07:30 <coppro> alise: with a .reg?
19:07:37 <alise> coppro: .reg + copy files i think
19:07:40 <alise> coppro: also, i'm being sarcastic
19:07:52 <alise> pikhq: The worst thing is, I've bought this game! Twice!
19:07:55 <alise> I just don't have the CD!
19:07:57 <pikhq> alise: Argh.
19:07:58 <coppro> you're never sarcastic
19:08:00 <alise> Give me the fucking CD!
19:08:10 <coppro> what game?
19:08:14 <alise> Worms Armageddon
19:08:25 <coppro> oh
19:08:27 <coppro> yeah, concurred
19:08:30 <coppro> if you find one, tell me
19:08:47 <alise> coppro: i could download my own ISO that i put up, but it's unseeded and the Sold-Out rerelease :)
19:08:49 <oerjan> ((SI)I)((SI)I)
19:08:55 <coppro> lol
19:09:05 <coppro> if you get a copy, tell me
19:09:16 <alise> sure thing
19:09:26 <alise> coppro: btw, to get it working in wine you have to replace a dll
19:09:41 <alise> http://worms2d.info/Main_Page is always a veritable fountain of knowledge
19:10:08 <coppro> I heard
19:10:20 <coppro> but I need a copy first
19:10:39 <alise> yeah i'll find something
19:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what.
19:11:20 <alise> pikhq: how does one give a specific root to wine?
19:11:24 <alise> to have per-app installs
19:11:27 <coppro> specific root?
19:11:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: combinator calculus
19:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, set WINE_PREFIX to something else.
19:11:49 <alise> coppro: instead of ~/.wine
19:11:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ok, thanks
19:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I think it should be CoW.
19:12:06 <pikhq> alise: WINEPREFIX=dir
19:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps WineFS could be created.
19:12:23 <alise> pikhq: oh yeah, you know that cheat thing deadcode wrote that i told you about?
19:12:26 <alise> and how there was an anti-cheat one?
19:12:27 <cpressey> oerjan: are you trying to send us into an infinite loop?
19:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Even symlinking all of the important DLLs.
19:12:35 * oerjan whistles innocently
19:12:41 <alise> pikhq: that anti-cheat one *single-handedly* added win2k/xp support to the game
19:12:43 <alise> without the source code
19:12:45 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, can it do Lazy K IO?
19:13:18 <oerjan> AND IT WOULD HAVE WORKED TOO IF NOT FOR THAT MEDDLING PHANTOM_HOOVER
19:13:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What?  No, I only wrote it in the past hour.  It barely just reduces SKI expressions
19:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, doing Lazy K IO isn't much more than that.
19:13:50 <pikhq> alise: Beautiful.
19:14:25 <alise> pikhq: and a testament to how good is engineering is -- if even one player in a net game uses an older, incompatible version of the game, all the newer versions will *emulate that version*
19:14:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: FEATURE REQUEST DECLINED
19:14:31 <alise> this goes right down to 3.0, the last official patch
19:14:38 <alise> *good the
19:15:04 <pikhq> alise: Bravo.
19:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Deadcode...?
19:15:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's a quantum-computer-based cyborg.
19:15:48 <alise> His only thoughts are to program.
19:15:54 <alise> He has no emotions.
19:16:03 <alise> pikhq: http://torrentz.com/634f0cf224c90dbb84e8bb48f337cbe1b62805d7
19:16:07 <alise> pikhq: i think this is a multi-language version but EH
19:16:13 <alise> at least it's something that actually appeared on a cd at some point
19:16:17 <alise> coppro: ^
19:16:21 <alise> coppro: http://torrentz.com/634f0cf224c90dbb84e8bb48f337cbe1b62805d7
19:16:31 <alise> it'll need a no-cd crack for sanity but That Can Be Arranged afterwards
19:16:36 <alise> oh and the directdraw
19:16:38 <alise> but again, that can come after
19:17:07 <alise> coppro: as always, remember to insert the torrentz tracker list :p
19:17:17 <alise> mmf download is slow
19:17:18 * alise looks for a faster one
19:17:46 <alise> aha
19:17:49 <alise> coppro: pikhq: http://torrentz.com/4c6c424826f8e8dc277fefe4e1de9c92f5337855
19:17:51 <alise> just tick the iso
19:17:52 <alise> and nothing else
19:18:09 <pikhq> MOAR TORRENT
19:18:15 <alise> pikhq: wat
19:18:34 <alise> 74 peers fuck yeah
19:18:54 <alise> things i don't understand
19:18:54 <alise> how come
19:18:56 <alise> after removing wine
19:18:57 <alise> and reinstalling it
19:19:01 <alise> the wine menu doesn't come back up?
19:19:18 <alise> aha, because it's still in the cache
19:19:19 <alise> hmm
19:19:27 <alise> oh wait no
19:19:53 <alise> wow
19:19:56 <alise> 995 KiB/s off a torrent
19:19:59 <alise> niiice
19:23:00 <alise> pikhq: by the way, quadrant/kitten will eat your firstborn as part of the installation process. and since said you'd try it, well...
19:23:03 <alise> >:D
19:24:33 <pikhq> alise: I'll have my cat install it for me.
19:24:45 <alise> pikhq: Is your cat fertile?
19:24:50 <pikhq> Nope!
19:25:03 <alise> pikhq: You see, that just means that it eats its owner's firstborn.
19:25:13 <alise> It's in the EULA!
19:25:47 <pikhq> Guess I'll just have to never have a child, then.
19:26:11 <pikhq> I'm currently doing that at a stunning pace!
19:26:15 <alise> pikhq: You don't want to know what happens if you do that.
19:26:19 <alise> You DON'T want to know.
19:26:26 <pikhq> What, parent's firstborn?
19:26:35 <alise> Nope.
19:26:38 <alise> It eats YOU.
19:26:47 <pikhq> I am my parent's firstborn, so...
19:26:58 <pikhq> I guess I'll have to hit the spermbank.
19:27:18 <alise> With your fists!
19:28:45 <alise> coppro: I'll give you an online game after I get WA installed.
19:28:52 <alise> Also, I'll tell you how to set it up before that :P
19:30:05 <cpressey> Idea: implement a Mandelbrot generator in Logo.  Have it draw the outline of the set using only the turtle drawing functions.
19:30:17 <alise> Ouch.
19:31:03 <pikhq> xhtml-served-as-html ensaddens me.
19:32:37 <alise> xhtml ensaddens me.
19:32:44 <alise> pikhq: You should totally download that WA torrent :|
19:32:52 <alise> We could all fail hilariously at the simplest of games!
19:32:53 <pikhq> alise: I'm downloading it.
19:33:04 <pikhq> Nothing about it parses right. Nothing. The web browser actually has to use its tag-soup parser to render anything.
19:33:07 <alise> Or start a CLAN (note: clans in WA are the most juvenile thing ever)
19:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> XHTML is HTML made XML-compliant, yes?
19:33:25 <alise> it used to be so bad that not having a clan in your nick made people call you a noob
19:33:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, XHTML is HTML using XML syntax instead of SGML syntax.
19:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, there's a difference/
19:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
19:33:46 <alise> if you see something like xABxSomeIdiotxABx, that's a clan idiot. AB stands for Abrasive Bastards or similar!
19:33:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: <br> vs <br/>
19:34:00 <alise> and yes
19:34:02 <alise> big difference
19:34:21 <pikhq> <br/> in SGML parses as a br tag followed by a misplaced >.
19:34:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: SGML and XML have a common subset.
19:34:58 <pikhq> HTML made XML-compliant would merely use this common subset.
19:35:07 * alise copies WA.iso to ~ to begin
19:35:23 <alise> pikhq: yeah, <br></br>
19:35:29 <alise> of course that's backwards-incompatible with old html versions
19:35:32 <pikhq> alise: Right.
19:35:43 <pikhq> I should note at this point that almost no HTML parsers actually parse things as SGML.
19:36:00 <pikhq> Meaning that there's *tons* of valid HTML that a web browser can't render.
19:36:22 * alise writes a WA-in-Wine install guide as he goes along
19:36:31 <pikhq> alise: It could also be <br></>
19:36:39 <alise> pikhq: yeah but nothing parses that :D
19:36:41 <pikhq> ... Erm, no, not for XML.
19:36:51 <pikhq> And if you just care about SGML, then <br/
19:37:01 <pikhq> alise: ... Links and lynx do!
19:37:07 <pikhq> alise: And the W3C validator!
19:37:57 <alise> WINE_PREFIX right?
19:37:58 <alise> for a wine root
19:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you do that thing with the multiple WINEPREFIXEs?
19:38:02 <pikhq> alise: WINEPREFIX
19:38:03 <alise> okay
19:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> *PREFIXes
19:38:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah. Currently, I've got one for ie6 and one for ie7.
19:38:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'll be adding more.
19:38:36 <alise> pikhq: You'll be adding one for WORMS ARMAGEDDON YAY
19:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, does each copy use disk space for all the C: stuff?
19:38:56 <pikhq> alise: Also Steam. (which will have more than one app in it but OH WELL)
19:39:14 <alise> pikhq: ONE STEAM PER APP
19:39:35 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Only for a handful of things.
19:39:45 <alise> Oh fuck, let's hope audio works.
19:39:52 <alise> Nope. AAAAAAAARGH
19:40:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Um, you get a bunch of small .exe's and empty DLL files.
19:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahhh.
19:41:45 <pikhq> 41M for a brand-new, empty wine prefix. Wait, seriously?
19:42:19 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It installs a full copy of Gecko for a WINE prefix.
19:42:46 <pikhq> (the mshtml implementation)
19:43:08 <alise> LOL THE INSTALLER LAUNCHER IS IN RUSSIAN.
19:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 525 MB in less than 10 minutes.
19:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
19:43:25 <alise> I hope the setup isn't.
19:43:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hold off until I get this guide done.
19:43:31 <alise> It's a bit tricky.
19:44:39 <alise> Okay, the data seems to be in English.
19:44:41 <alise> So don't worry.
19:44:46 <alise> Let's see.
19:47:00 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the chance statistically of his ISP murdering his family is.
19:47:19 <alise> pikhq: Phantom_Hoover: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
19:47:23 <alise> It's in Russian, I think.
19:47:24 <pikhq> Quite low, to be realistic.
19:47:31 <alise> I will find another torrent.
19:47:37 <alise> In the meantime, save your disk space and delete it.
19:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, goddamn you.
19:47:57 <alise> You might be able to patch a file to get it to work but *I'll just find a stock CD*
19:48:17 <alise> wait
19:48:18 <alise> wait
19:48:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: don't
19:48:22 <alise> "Russian is only installation. After patching all will be in english."
19:50:01 <pikhq> I JUST HIT DELETE FILES AND REMOVE GRR
19:50:23 <alise> pikhq: ;_;
19:50:25 <alise> pikhq: I apologise.
19:50:59 <alise> pikhq: OH YEAH, make sure you have wine 1.3.3.
19:51:04 <alise> I don't. Fuck!
19:51:08 * alise downloads bianry package
19:51:13 <alise> *binary
19:52:18 * pikhq hath 1.2
19:52:25 <alise> pikhq: Get 1.3.3.
19:52:27 <alise> Or online play doesn't work.
19:53:45 <Gregor> WHO'S READY FOR AN 8-BIT ORGASM?
19:55:29 <Gregor> NO ONE!
19:55:32 <Gregor> Got it :P
19:55:36 <alise> Almost done the guide.
19:57:41 * pikhq updates
19:59:22 <alise> pikhq: I think this CD may be unusable for the purpose/
19:59:25 <alise> *purpose.
19:59:28 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:00:00 <alise> OH COOL
20:00:05 -!- wareya has joined.
20:00:07 <pikhq> Oh, hey, awesome. I'm now accessing the Gentoo mirrors via IPv6.
20:01:12 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-10-8bit.ogg
20:01:21 <alise> grrrrrrrr
20:03:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Stop.
20:03:13 <alise> Auuuuuuuuuuum.
20:03:18 <alise> I'm starting from scratch.
20:06:16 <alise> pikhq: There is a wrapper for a patched version ofw ine that apparently makes this work just fine.
20:06:19 <alise> I am trying to get it working now.
20:07:42 <alise> pikhq: The irritating thing is that with the not-yet-released update, this would work all out of the box.
20:08:23 <pikhq> alise: That is quite irritating indeed.
20:09:10 <alise> pikhq: Right then: Kitten/Quadrant will include a package that, when supplied with an iso file, will set up WA properly. :P
20:11:34 <alise> pikhq: I'm figuring it out now.
20:11:48 <alise> pikhq: What I may do is write a script that puts all this crap in one self-contained directory...
20:11:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, make it support WINE in a nice fashion.
20:12:56 <alise> My distro?
20:12:59 <alise> Define nice fashion.
20:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, what's your opinion on the suckiness of extant kernals?
20:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> *kernels kernels kernels
20:13:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
20:14:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Linux sucks, BSD less so.
20:15:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:15:18 <alise> "taken directly from a original bought disc.
20:15:19 <alise> ISO, update & no-cd crack included.
20:15:19 <alise> Check readme for information."
20:15:20 <alise> I FUCKING APPROVE
20:15:37 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: A kernel is only a kernal if it's on the C64
20:16:57 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Y'know a major upside to per-app WINE prefixes? If it's something I only use on occasion, *I can just tar up the prefix*.
20:17:04 <alise> pikhq: :D
20:17:06 <pikhq> Which is of course awesome.
20:17:32 <Gregor> Nobody listened to my awesome 8-bit adventure X-P
20:17:58 <pikhq> WINE: if the program works right, then it works *better*. :)
20:18:46 <alise> Gregor: relink
20:18:53 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-10-8bit.ogg
20:19:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: I recommend you download http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent, sans the update file which you don't need, but with the exe.
20:19:19 * Phantom_Hoover is beyond caring
20:19:22 <alise> Gregor: i approve
20:19:29 <alise> Gregor: was it done on actual 8-bit hardware or emulation
20:19:31 <alise> or just FAKE
20:19:34 <Gregor> FAKE
20:19:35 <Gregor> TOTALLY FAKE
20:19:38 <alise> bastard
20:19:39 <Gregor> ALL FAKE ... and evil.
20:19:41 <Gregor> VSTi's
20:20:27 <pikhq> alise: Does it have a peer list from torrentz?
20:20:36 <pikhq> Erm, tracker
20:20:54 <pikhq> If not, well, at least it actually has a working tracker.
20:21:05 <alise> pikhq: It does not, unfortunately.
20:21:13 <alise> But it IS the original iso from the original fucking disc and that's what matters.
20:21:19 <pikhq> alise: So, this'll be slow. But oh well.
20:21:28 <alise> I'm getting 150 KiB/s.
20:21:30 <alise> So it's not that bad.
20:21:34 <alise> 170 KiB/s, even, at some points.
20:21:36 <pikhq> I'm getting 0 KiB/s.
20:21:44 <alise> pikhq: what trackers does it list?
20:21:47 <alise> podtropolis, torrentbay and prq?
20:21:51 <alise> those are the ones i have
20:21:52 <pikhq> Yup.
20:22:01 <pikhq> Peer list request timed out on the first two.
20:22:03 <alise> pikhq: i might be hogging everyone :) give it a minute
20:22:04 <alise> pikhq: ah
20:22:11 <alise> pikhq: pause and restart
20:22:13 <alise> the first one has peers
20:22:16 <alise> the second one times out for me too
20:22:29 <pikhq> But I just got some peers from the DHT; is all good.
20:22:58 <pikhq> Including you.
20:23:06 <alise> :-D
20:23:10 <alise> Thanks for making me use my upload, bastard!
20:23:18 <alise> pikhq: How do you tell which ones are from the DHT?
20:23:38 <pikhq> In the list of peers, "H".
20:23:45 <pikhq> (for the status)
20:23:51 <alise> I'm downloading from you now, ha.
20:24:02 <alise> Now my download is slow. So you suffer!
20:24:04 <pikhq> X, BTW, is peer exchange.
20:24:12 <alise> And my upload is going between 4 KiB/s and 110 KiB/s.
20:24:14 <alise> Wildly.
20:24:19 <alise> pikhq: yeah, if you hover over it gives a legend
20:24:21 <alise> which is nice
20:24:26 <pikhq> Yuh.
20:24:52 <oklopol> Gregor: good stuff
20:24:53 <alise> pikhq: Can you block me? You're making my download shit :P
20:25:05 <alise> It's fluctuating like hell
20:25:15 <Gregor> alise: Your mom is fluctuating like hell.
20:25:19 <pikhq> No, it won't let you do that.
20:25:26 <alise> BAH
20:25:57 <alise> pikhq: What I'll do sometime is fish out my WA CD, wherever it is -- the original version -- and make an .iso of it.
20:26:03 <alise> And then give it to anyone who asks that I like.
20:26:10 <alise> Plus a script that sets it up properly, hopefully.
20:26:23 <alise> That will be a lot less painful than this.
20:26:41 <pikhq> What's painful is the trackers NOT WORKING
20:26:56 <alise> FIRST AND LAST ONES DO HAHAHAHA
20:27:01 <alise> Pause it and start it again
20:27:02 <alise> Should help
20:27:06 <pikhq> I only get the last one.
20:27:06 <pikhq> And I did that.
20:27:10 <alise> Bah.
20:27:14 <pikhq> The tracker just won't respond.
20:27:19 <alise> That means you leech of me more than is strictly necessary! Fucker :P
20:27:29 <pikhq> How many peers are you connected to?
20:27:33 <alise> 4
20:27:36 <alise> and i'm downloading from them all
20:27:41 <pikhq> I'm connected to 6...
20:27:44 <alise> first tracker gives 7 peers
20:27:47 <alise> last tracker gives 4 peers
20:28:04 <alise> (6 seeders, 1 leecher, and 3 seeders, 1 leecher.)
20:29:41 <alise> Gregor: Make zee5 (Gregor's techno mix)
20:29:53 <Gregor> Let's not!
20:29:59 <alise> LET'S
20:32:26 <alise> pikhq: While you're waiting, install Hedgewars from your friendly local package manager; it's so much a clone of Worms Armageddon that it borders on copyright infringement.
20:32:30 <alise> And it has networked play.
20:33:05 <alise> pikhq: In fact, I'll give you a game.
20:33:26 <alise> It sets resolution = screen res by default, so you'll either want to enable fullscreen or reduce it.
20:33:59 * pikhq is, instead, switching to per-app installs of Steam.
20:34:09 <alise> BUT THAT'S LESS FUN
20:35:39 <pikhq> NEENER
20:39:34 <pikhq> Another nice thing is that if I decide to uninstall something, rm -rf does it.
20:39:47 <pikhq> No. Residual. Bullshit.
20:39:57 <alise> fizzie: Hey, what's the guy in H2G2 who always gets rained on?
20:41:56 <fizzie> alise: Rob McKeena, the Rain God.
20:42:07 <alise> fizzie: Heh, I just found that as you said it.
20:42:09 <alise> Thanks.
20:42:16 <alise> fizzie: Have you got the whole series memorised?
20:42:25 <fizzie> No, but I've got grep. :p
20:42:53 <fizzie> (I used to have it memorized reasonably well back when we had the trivia game running, though.)
20:43:18 <fizzie> Rob's a rather minor character.
20:44:14 * pikhq mocks the sharing of files that The Orange Box does! BWAHAHAHA
20:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, who's that guy who got the Rory Award?
20:45:44 <fizzie> I don't think he was named.
20:47:58 <cpressey> "I'm not wearing a hat."  "Nice head, then."
20:48:23 <cpressey> Or it could be "I like the head, then".
20:48:30 <cpressey> I don't have it memorized either.
20:49:24 <fizzie> "I like that hat!" he bawled.   "What?"   "I said, I like the hat."   "I'm not wearing a hat."   "Well, I like the head, then."   "What?"   "I said, I like the head. Interesting bone-structure."   "What?"
20:53:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:00:08 <cpressey> Is there a name for the subset of C where a and b (in a+bi) are rationals, or even integers?
21:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what's the name of the singer at the diner in Mostly Harmless.
21:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, a question I asked long ago.
21:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The answer was "no".
21:01:01 <fizzie> cpressey: Gaussian integers are those where a and b are integers. I don't think there's any special name for *even* integers, though.
21:01:02 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: is i a real number?  NO WAIT HEAR ME OUT
21:01:45 * Phantom_Hoover raises the crazy shields and sets mathsters to "stun".
21:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, go ahead...
21:02:22 <cpressey> There's no reason to believe the decimal expansion of i (er... you know, if such a thing were... imaginable) would be nonrepeating, or even that it would have anything to the right of the decimal point.
21:02:46 <cpressey> i looks pretty much like an integer.
21:02:51 <cpressey> except, you know, imaginary,
21:02:53 <cpressey> *.
21:03:19 <cpressey> It's just that it hangs around with this crowd that are usually reals.
21:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, i is a Gaussian integer.
21:04:05 <cpressey> And participates in the defintion of a plane that is built on top of the reals.
21:04:09 <cpressey> Ooh!
21:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is, I suppose, what you mean.
21:04:35 <cpressey> Er... well maybe
21:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (Logically, forall a b : Q, a+bi would be a Gaussian rational, but I've never actually heard that usage.)
21:06:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The usage is extant enough to have a Wikipedia stub, at least.
21:07:51 <cpressey> I guess this answers my original curiousity... Gaussian rationals do fit what I was thinking of.
21:08:09 -!- flippo has joined.
21:08:29 <alise> brb
21:08:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Still no progress on Sierp!
21:09:13 <cpressey> Actually it feels like you ought to be able to "complexify" (Gaussify?) any field or maybe any commutative ring or maybe any ring
21:09:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:09:22 <pikhq> Y'know, Steam sucks enough that I'm considering just downloading a no-Steam crack of these games.
21:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, logically you should be able to Gaussify N as well, which isn't a ring.
21:11:47 <cpressey> Maybe.  Maybe you could Gaussify C, too.
21:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't work.
21:12:16 <cpressey> Probably just reduces to C, is what I was thinking
21:12:47 <pikhq> *Aaaaand* Steam crashes.
21:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, since forall a, b \in C, a * b \in C
21:16:51 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:18:27 -!- zzo38 has set topic: This is not a real topic message. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:20:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un sujet. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> French self-reference > English self-reference.
21:21:16 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: That is better. Thanks
21:22:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not know French, so I cannot respond appropriately.
21:22:44 <zzo38> OK
21:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> How was that Underlambda thing doing?
21:28:06 <zzo38> What is Underlambda?
21:28:45 <pikhq> alise: How goes the WA?
21:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> That... is what I seek to find out.
21:35:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: ZzzZZzzzZZzZzZ).
21:37:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:37:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:37:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:37:21 <pikhq> As it turns out, IE7 is significantly smaller than IE6.
21:40:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, do you know the Forbidden Secrets of Chemistry?
21:43:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Like how goddamned electrons work.
21:43:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: only to some extent
21:44:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's more physics, isn't it?
21:44:05 <ais523> I have enough of an understanding to explain why electrons act the way they do in covalent/ionic bonds, to an extent sufficient to make a few basic explanations but not really get to the heart of what's oging on
21:44:09 <alise> pikhq: 261.5/262.7 mb
21:44:10 <ais523> oh, hi alise
21:44:13 <alise> nobody uploading to me
21:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, *goddamned electron shells
21:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The explanation that is given at first is so obviously wrong...
21:44:51 <alise> pikhq: do you have the whole thing?
21:44:57 <alise> no, just 99%
21:44:58 <alise> hmph
21:45:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I can give a simplified and "wrong" explanation that's nonetheless better than the explanation you're likely to have been given, and has better predictive power
21:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The subshell one?
21:46:50 <alise> better predictive power -- useful if you're going to bet on what electron shells will do
21:47:10 <pikhq> alise: Uh, that's the whole ISO.
21:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, does 21st Century Science have anything on electron shells?
21:47:30 <pikhq> alise: It's showing the percentage of the whole torrent you have, not the percentage of what you want.
21:47:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, the answer to that is obvious.
21:47:33 <alise> pikhq: Oh, what the eff. I started downloading the update.
21:47:35 <alise> How did that happen?
21:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel stupid for askin.
21:47:38 <alise> But okay.
21:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> *asking
21:47:42 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and feof/ferror too, as well as the somewhat obscure system(NULL) case. (And a lot of multibyte string functions when called with a NULL s.)
21:47:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I think it... might.
21:48:02 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, thanks for that
21:48:07 <pikhq> alise: Got forced to, presumably. Saying "I want only this" only means that your client will *try* to only get that.
21:48:08 <alise> I did them at the unit; well, "did", I sat there and turned my brain off while the obvious incorrectness was dispensed into my audial system.
21:48:12 * Phantom_Hoover surprises
21:48:14 <alise> pikhq: Right.
21:48:19 <ais523> arguably, the system(NULL) case might actually come up, as it's a course about kernel programming
21:48:27 <alise> pikhq: "But I don't WANT that file!" "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE GETTING IT"
21:48:43 <ais523> and assuming that system() is given the correct implementation inside the kernel in question (IIRC Linux), it would be a quick test to see if you were a kernel module or user program
21:48:45 <pikhq> Yup.
21:48:47 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I will now attempt to write a guide that explains how to get this working.
21:48:55 <ais523> ofc, a need for that test isn't likely to come up very often...
21:49:01 <alise> ais523: heh
21:49:16 <ais523> alise: did you see my complaints about the C notes I was given to teach from, earlier?
21:49:33 <alise> ais523: yes
21:49:35 <alise> ais523: sounds awful
21:50:06 <ais523> (also, the course officially uses gcc --std=gnu99; I suppose that's vaguely plausible given that it's meant to be about kernel programming and Linux the kernel is full of GNU extensions, but still...)
21:50:33 <alise> pikhq: So you have the whole thing too?
21:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, note how whatever 21st Century Science says, it will completely ignore anything past calcium.
21:50:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: did you do it or something?
21:51:06 <alise> or are you just basing this on what i said about how crap it is?
21:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm basing it on the fact that elements past Ca aren't covered until final-year-ish courses in school.
21:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it involves quantum, AND WE ALL KNOW HOW IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPREHEND THAT IS
21:52:26 <alise> I love our educational system; we treat people like retards, ensuring that they will grow up to be retards.
21:53:02 <pikhq> alise: Yup.
21:53:05 <ais523> hmm, zzo38 implemented Underload in TeX? that seems kind-of appropriate next to the Redcode impl
21:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I have spent at least 3 years asking every chemistry teacher I have how the bloody things work, to no avail.
21:53:39 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/.local/lib/worms-armageddon$ file cd.iso
21:53:39 <alise> cd.iso: PowerISO Direct-Access-Archive
21:53:44 <alise> pikhq: discuss
21:53:48 <pikhq> alise: Install daa2iso.
21:53:49 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I have done. If you have any other questions about it you can ask
21:53:57 <alise> archive manager can't open it either
21:54:01 <alise> pikhq: WHY IS IT .ISO IF IT'S NOT ISO
21:54:02 <alise> AIOJFGDFJH
21:54:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it does involve quantum, but not in a particularly incomprehensible way
21:54:06 <pikhq> alise: FUCK YOU
21:54:16 <pikhq> alise: But, daa2iso will get you a proper ISO, so hey.
21:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, TOO DAMN INCOMPREHENSIBLE
21:54:23 <alise> Man, anyone grepping the logs for me and pikhq saying fuck will think we hate each other.
21:54:28 <ais523> zzo38: mostly I'm just impressed, and trying to figure out how it works
21:54:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: OK, let's see... electrons can be in one of many different energy levels, orbits, and spins
21:55:07 <alise> pikhq: ...
21:55:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: God I *hate* that. I mean, quantum isn't magic.
21:55:11 <alise> pikhq: I just deleted WA.iso by mistake.
21:55:12 <zzo38> ais523: It isn't particularly complicated. It is a short program, and if you understand TeX you should understand this program.
21:55:18 <ais523> although it's not /quite/ true that spins are symmetrical, it takes really contrived quantum physics to find an example where they aren't
21:55:20 <pikhq> alise: Facepalm-tastic.
21:55:23 <ais523> zzo38: I don't understand raw TeX
21:55:26 <pikhq> alise: I just got an ISO.
21:55:27 <pikhq> :)
21:55:27 <ais523> but I can try to figure it out from the program
21:55:32 <alise> pikhq: I hereby obligate you to upload it to a server that I have access to.
21:55:36 <alise> pikhq: Or -- even better.
21:55:40 <alise> pikhq: You seeding that torrent?
21:55:47 <pikhq> alise: I can go back to seeding it!
21:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I figured it out by myself a couple of days ago, with the aid of a poster.
21:56:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: so for the purposes of this, you can assume that "up" and "down" spins (the only two possibilities) are identical except for being different from each other
21:56:09 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: even better, I don't need to explain that way!
21:56:11 <zzo38> ais523: Now you can see if you can figure out, and any part you don't know, you can ask.
21:56:27 <alise> pikhq: Transmission thinks I still have the file X_X
21:56:35 <alise> Hey, is there any way to quickly recover a recently-deleted file on an ext4 system?
21:56:36 <pikhq> alise: Rescan.
21:56:38 <ais523> the code for : looks pretty surprising
21:56:39 <alise> Is it in the journal or ... something?
21:56:57 <ais523> alise: the journal only exists while the deletion is taking place
21:57:12 <alise> ais523: Mother-fucking-fuckshitting-fuck.
21:57:13 <ais523> and unfortunately, ext4 is very fast at deleting large files, that's part of the reason you'd use it
21:57:21 <alise> I want a filesystem that's really slow at deleting large files.
21:57:23 <alise> REALLY slow.
21:57:36 <ais523> (in fact, it's one of its main advantages over ext3)
21:57:38 <alise> Actually I want an rm that just moves the file to a trashcan because I can't trust myself with this shit.
21:57:42 <ais523> alise: you could grep for a magic number or something
21:57:58 <ais523> (and you can alias rm to a move-to-trash in your .profile or whatever)
21:57:58 <pikhq> alise: Write an rm-alike!
21:58:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay, seed that thing.
21:58:04 <pikhq> I'm seeding it.
21:58:05 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I might just.
21:58:16 <ais523> hmm, what about moving to somewhere in /tmp?
21:58:17 <pikhq> And connected to you.
21:58:22 <alise> Alias rm to mv-to-bin, rename rm to really-really-rm.
21:58:28 <ais523> that way, you can undelete as long as you haven't rebooted in between
21:58:30 <pikhq> And UPLOAD MORE DAMMIT
21:58:36 <ais523> (or if you're feeling more adventurous, move to /var/cache)
21:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover> FUN FACT: the 5th-year physics curriculum in Scotland covers quantum in so little detail that they don't even mention the double-slit experiment.
21:58:44 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT SPEED BEEEEEP INSUFFICIENT SPEED BEEEEEEEEEEEEP
21:58:52 <ais523> alise: /bin seems a rather bad place for deleted files...
21:58:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please put "mechanics" after that word. Just "quantum" is irritating.
21:59:02 <alise> ais523: The word "bin".
21:59:04 <zzo38> ais523: Do you mean the code for : in the underload.tex is surprising?
21:59:06 <alise> "Rubbish bin".
21:59:08 <ais523> zzo38: yes
21:59:17 <ais523> it doesn't obviously match what : does, like the code for ~ does
21:59:40 <pikhq> alise: Okay, it is now the only torrent I'm running.
21:59:49 <pikhq> Better?
21:59:49 <alise> pikhq: YAY
21:59:51 <ais523> also, is ^ using a temporary file?
21:59:51 <alise> pikhq: Thanks.
21:59:57 <ais523> and does that work for nested ^ commands?
21:59:59 <alise> pikhq: I promise to be less stupid as payment.
22:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's a Discworld reference.
22:00:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
22:00:26 <zzo38> ais523: Well, it does work. The \begingroup command in TeX is basically like pushing the state of all macros and registers to the stack (it doesn't work exactly like that, but it is close).
22:00:37 <pikhq> alise: ETA = ?
22:00:38 <zzo38> And ^ is using a temporary file, and it does work for nested ^ commands.
22:00:46 <alise> pikhq: 32 minutes
22:00:50 <alise> which is better than i ever got on the torrent itself
22:01:06 <alise> pikhq: you have great upload
22:01:07 <pikhq> Hooray, using all the upload.
22:01:31 <alise> pikhq: To be fair, I am getting it from three other people, too.
22:01:42 <pikhq> alise: I was seeding 3 other torrents and fetching 2 others...
22:01:50 <ais523> zzo38: using a temporary file to implement function calls rather reminds me of using multithreading to implement addition
22:01:51 <alise> Yours is the fastest though.
22:02:11 <alise> pikhq: Pfft, you're one of these crazy people who "seeds" torrents after they're downloaded.
22:02:13 <alise> PFFT
22:02:20 <zzo38> ais523: And in case you didn't realize yet, the reason for  \let\C=\catcode
22:02:22 <pikhq> alise: Private tracker.
22:02:28 <zzo38> is because the word "catcode" as "a" in it.
22:02:32 <ais523> zzo38: does an infinite loop as in (:^):^ run out of memory eventually, or does it actually run forever?
22:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what is that music at the end of Free Man?
22:02:41 <ais523> zzo38: ingenious
22:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The internet seems to be at a loss.
22:02:46 <alise> pikhq: I have a crazy ratio on Demonoid and I forget why.
22:03:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's something some guy made specifically for it
22:03:05 <alise> some internet-famous ... thing
22:03:18 <zzo38> ais523: The input stack is eventually exhausted. (MiKTeX (and probably others, too) allow changing the input stack size by a command-line parameter.)
22:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean the music that plays when it's panning around the statue of John Freeman.
22:03:31 <alise> pikhq: Hmm, only 1.46 ratio on Demonoid. Swear it was more!
22:03:31 <cpressey> I need to re-install Windows on this machine now.
22:03:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. Dunno.
22:03:34 <cpressey> Wish me luck.
22:03:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:03:41 <ais523> cpressey: good luck!
22:03:47 <zzo38> There might be a better way than using input files like this, but I found this the simplest way, later I might find a better way, in which case I can fix it.
22:03:51 * ais523 feels slightly trepidated
22:04:19 <ais523> still, I can't figure out how : is meant to work
22:04:22 <ais523> what are you using as the stack?
22:04:54 <zzo38> ais523: I am using TeX's internal group stack as the stack.
22:05:10 <ais523> and what are you using as stack elements?
22:05:25 <zzo38> The \toks0 register.
22:05:40 <ais523> oh, I think I get an idea of how it's working noe
22:05:42 <ais523> *now
22:05:51 <ais523> and : works because it starts a new group, but doesn't change any of the current registers?
22:05:57 <ais523> so it just copies what's there on the stack already?
22:05:58 <zzo38> Yes.
22:06:13 <ais523> got iy
22:06:15 <ais523> *it
22:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, merit of Gaz versions of the final two instalments in the FLC series. Discuss.
22:06:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they're not as good.
22:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I never liked the fact that Henry and John Freeman are indistinguishable.
22:07:56 <alise> That could have been funny, but *eh* they're just not as funny.
22:08:04 <alise> Because the entire amusement of the series is how downright stupid it is.
22:08:10 <alise> And they're less stupid than the regular ones.
22:08:16 <zzo38> If there was a category code for active and begin group both at the same time, I could probably do it without temporary files.
22:09:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: huh, apparently the readings featured in the djy videos aren't his own
22:09:26 <zzo38> (I have tried the example Underload programs, all of them work.)
22:09:30 <alise> they're all from elsewhere :P
22:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
22:09:37 <alise> strange because they fit so well
22:09:43 <alise> "They combine dramatic readings performed by other users and music from the album Production Music from Ren & Stimpy, creating a distinct Soundtrack Dissonance."
22:11:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:12:18 <cpressey> Can't risk it; recovery CD is moronic.  I don't trust it to not wipe out the Linux partition.
22:12:33 <alise> cpressey: ?
22:12:47 <cpressey> alise: Why I Am Not Re-Installing Windows Here.
22:12:56 <cpressey> also, I can print what i need to at work
22:13:09 <cpressey> or maybe even talk to this printer from Ubuntu
22:13:10 <cpressey> hahahah
22:15:28 <cpressey> @tell oerjan The problem with the "non-self-similar fractal" of a triangle, square, pentagon... is that as n gets large, n-gons do tend to look... well, similar.
22:16:43 <cpressey> actually seems pretty close to the "non-repeating sequence <-> unbounded storage" thing... to have a non-self-similar fractal, you essentially need a non-repeating sequence
22:16:49 <alise> cpressey: no lambdabot
22:16:54 <alise> cpressey: ubuntu is pretty good with printers btw
22:17:32 <cpressey> and oerjan is pretty good with reading the logs himself :)
22:18:54 <cpressey> There was an error during the CUPS operation: 'client-error-document-format-not-supported'.  When printing a test page.
22:19:12 <cpressey> I assume this means eww-your-printer-is-retarded.
22:20:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:23 <alise> What's that thing about atoms written in ... English without Germanic things? Or something.
22:23:25 <alise> The title.
22:25:48 <alise> pikhq: "Thanks Allan but I'm afraid I don't have that programming knowledge and talent for I'm not a programmer. [...] I am a software designer, an architect, a non-coding project manager you might say. In the old days the term was "analyst". My interest is more in designing algorithms, writing pseudo-code, interfaces and of course managing computing projects."
22:25:52 <alise> --Tcl wiki page 19
22:25:58 <alise> Desire to kill strong.
22:26:29 <pikhq> "720x400" WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT YOU ASSHOLE
22:28:20 <alise> pikhq: wat
22:28:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:29:09 <pikhq> alise: Take a 4:3 720p video, and rescale to 720x400.
22:29:15 <pikhq> Erm.
22:29:17 <pikhq> 480p video.
22:29:22 <pikhq> Not 640x480, which would make *some* sense. 720x400.
22:29:24 <alise> pikhq: "No."
22:29:31 <alise> Is that the right answer?
22:30:05 <pikhq> Moral of the story: the people who encode videos for torrents are assholes.
22:30:49 <alise> pikhq: Okay, torrent finished. I will try to have either a full guide, or an admission that it can't be done, in an hour or two.
22:31:01 <pikhq> Mmkay.
22:31:10 <coppro> alise: you got WA?
22:31:15 <alise> More likely two.
22:31:21 <alise> coppro: Yes, but I have not yet verified its usefulness.
22:31:28 <coppro> cpressey: the recovery CD won't wipe out Linux, just the bootleader. Have a disc handy to reinstall that
22:31:30 <alise> coppro: It is *very* non-trivial to get it working in WINE.
22:31:35 <coppro> alise: I see the guide
22:31:40 <alise> coppro: No.
22:31:41 <alise> It's outdated.
22:31:43 <coppro> oh :(
22:31:43 <alise> *Sorely* outdated.
22:31:51 <alise> As in "pre-Wine 1.0" outdated.
22:31:54 <coppro> also I should grab trunk wine
22:31:58 <alise> no
22:31:59 <alise> wine 1.3.3
22:32:03 <alise> it's the development release
22:32:03 <coppro> oh
22:32:05 <coppro> ok
22:32:11 <alise> older ones won't work online
22:32:13 <alise> (wormnet)
22:32:19 <alise> pikhq: link coppro to the .torrent, would you?
22:32:20 <alise> I'll be seeding.
22:32:33 <alise> coppro: and I'll tell you what to do with it soon, hopefully :P
22:32:35 <alise> once I figure it out
22:32:37 <coppro> ok
22:32:41 * coppro goes to grab wine
22:32:48 <alise> coppro: note: ubuntu repos version is old
22:32:51 <alise> uninstall it before installing 1.3.3
22:32:53 <alise> there is a PPA.
22:32:54 <pikhq> Uh, I no longer have it.
22:33:01 <pikhq> The link, that is.
22:33:03 <alise> pikhq: i'll get the link
22:33:11 <pikhq> http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent
22:33:12 <pikhq> There.
22:33:13 <alise> coppro: http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent
22:33:14 <pikhq> Log grep
22:33:14 <alise> lawl
22:33:29 <alise> coppro: Download that and I'll have the info on how to get it running soon.
22:33:31 <pikhq> Okay, I found something even worse...
22:33:49 <pikhq> Who the hell *posts DVD ISOs* but *does a re-encode for that*?
22:33:58 * coppro tries to figure out how to get the right git tag
22:34:02 <alise> coppro: dude
22:34:10 <alise> coppro: http://www.winehq.org/download/deb
22:34:15 <alise> use the freakin' repository
22:34:27 <alise> save yourself many pointless hours and possible misconfiguration
22:34:46 <coppro> oh, cool, a ppa
22:34:52 <alise> <alise> there is a PPA.
22:34:53 <alise> :P
22:35:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:35:10 <alise> you have to install wine1.3 package
22:35:11 <alise> not wine
22:35:14 <alise> *the wine1.3
22:36:04 <coppro> ok
22:36:20 <coppro> is the easiest way to switch base repos to use sed?
22:36:29 <coppro> I need to move onto the CSC's, since they're on LAN
22:36:30 <alise> what?
22:36:40 <alise> coppro: the easiest way is to use add-apt-repository
22:36:41 <alise> oh er
22:36:43 <alise> to swtich them?
22:36:46 <alise> just edit /etc/apt/sources.list
22:36:47 <alise> *switch
22:36:49 <alise> i wouldn't trust sed
22:36:51 <coppro> ok, so sed it is
22:37:21 <alise> are you seriously unable to make 4 simple edits without using sed? :p
22:37:28 <coppro> it's more than 4
22:38:12 <alise> coppro: are you downloading that torrent?
22:38:18 <alise> you're not connected to me
22:38:25 <coppro> I am
22:39:02 <cpressey> coppro: good point.  i still don't trust it though.
22:39:15 <alise> coppro: well, it's all pikhq. and others
22:39:18 <alise> you're not connected to me, loser
22:39:38 <alise> brb
22:39:42 <alise> (brb a while)
22:39:59 <coppro> ok
22:40:30 <coppro> alise: your client won't connect to me :(
22:41:02 <pikhq> 576x432. *vomit*
22:43:09 <pikhq> YOU SUCK AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
22:44:27 <cpressey> i am running the gnome desktop yet i do not have gnome-core installed
22:45:06 <Vorpal> <alise> you have to install wine1.3 package <-- I read that as win3.1 and then as wine3.1 XD
22:45:15 <cpressey> it must be one of those wrapper pkgs and i hae the individual pkgs installed
22:45:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi-1.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi-2.jpg (May 2010 → Oct 2010; it's not exactly the same place, but at least it's the same lake.)
22:46:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:46:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
22:46:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, the first is familiar
22:46:46 <fizzie> Yes, I've linked to it before.
22:46:51 <fizzie> Probably with a different name, though.
22:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, idea: find one place (preferably close to where you live) and take one panorama from the same place every month.
22:47:14 <Vorpal> might be interesting
22:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, "same place" would have to be "close enough that it looks about the same"
22:48:06 <Vorpal> and obviously it would be awkward doing that if not close to where you live
22:48:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you think?
22:48:27 <fizzie> I would like to take panoramas from one well-defined point at each of the four seasons, then align the whole set with panotools, then blend the images together.
22:48:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, blend or fuse?
22:48:53 <Vorpal> both would give weird results I bet
22:49:06 <Vorpal> I mean, trees sag if there is a lot of snow
22:49:34 <fizzie> Blend in the sense that one quarter of the image is mostly one season, but that they blend sort-of-seamlessly together.
22:50:06 <fizzie> To use as a wallpaper in the phone; it has those four horizontally-aligned desktops, with wraparound, and glide from one to another.
22:50:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, as for well defined point, surely you can find that? in the intersection above some stone slabs (obviously for roads using such, rather than asphalt)
22:50:44 <Vorpal> might be a bit hard to find in the winter though
22:50:44 <fizzie> Yes, but I haven't yet found a nice nearby place from where a 360-degree panorama would be pretty.
22:51:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it is just 4 times / year then it might not need to be *that* close
22:51:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how far away is that lake?
22:51:47 <fizzie> Well, not too far. It's just that I'm rather lazy.
22:51:47 <Vorpal> it might work well  if you decide on a specific pier (or whatever it is called, is pier just for more fixed ones?)
22:52:05 <fizzie> 1. (1) pier, wharf, wharfage, dock -- (a platform built out from the shore into the water and supported by piles; provides access to ships and boats)
22:52:14 <fizzie> That sounds like it wouldn't apply to a floating one.
22:52:29 <Vorpal> hm okay
22:52:30 <Vorpal> well
22:52:33 <Vorpal> "brygga"
22:52:35 <Vorpal> :P
22:54:49 <fizzie> Might work. Though I can't reuse either of those two images; not enough vertical FOV.
22:54:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm okay
22:55:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not enough?
22:55:31 <Vorpal> I mean, you have enough res to fill my screen vertically
22:55:36 <Vorpal> and that is more than a phone would have
22:55:51 <Vorpal> hm would be rather narrow on a phone
22:56:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw what irc client do you use on your n900?
22:56:10 <fizzie> If you scale -2 to 3200 pixels of width, the height will be 407 pixels; I need 3200x480.
22:56:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, err -2?
22:56:37 <fizzie> siikajarvi-2.jpg.
22:57:04 <Vorpal> ah
22:57:07 <fizzie> And "none"; just the included terminal emulator and openssh.
22:57:19 <Vorpal> ah
22:57:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, which irc client do you use over ssh then?
22:57:43 <fizzie> irssi.
22:57:50 <Vorpal> mhm
22:58:09 <fizzie> Though I did take a quick look at that weechat thing.
22:58:39 <fizzie> It seemed interesting, but core-dumped just when I got it going.
22:58:58 <cpressey> i used to use weechat
22:59:00 <cpressey> i think
23:00:07 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:00:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, on your n900?
23:00:45 <Vorpal> (I didn't know you had one?)
23:01:59 <fizzie> Just in general, I think.
23:02:07 <fizzie> It's a terminaly client too.
23:02:28 <cpressey> Vorpal: what? no
23:03:20 <fizzie> I did try out the x-chat Maemo port, but it wasn't really much of a port, someone had just compiled it with very minor changes, so it wasn't too mobile-friendly.
23:03:30 <cpressey> it has grown since i last used it, it seems
23:05:10 <fizzie> I think I have a local irssi on the phone too, but haven't really used it.
23:05:42 <cpressey> bugs me when i can't find out the license that a project uses in 2 minutes of browsing their website
23:07:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, which project?
23:07:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: irssi!
23:07:21 <Vorpal> oh hah
23:07:35 <cpressey> also, there is no apt package for MIT dungeon. I guess because it's not technically free.
23:07:37 -!- fizzien900 has joined.
23:07:38 <Vorpal> Name           : irssi
23:07:38 <Vorpal> Version        : 0.8.15-3
23:07:38 <Vorpal> URL            : http://irssi.org/
23:07:38 <Vorpal> Licenses       : GPL
23:07:42 <Vorpal> is what my package manager claims
23:07:45 <fizzien900> Yes, there is a local irssi.
23:07:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, that could be any version of GPL
23:07:57 <cpressey> yeah, i eventually had to go to ubuntu to find that out
23:08:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah
23:08:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, took me half a minute to find
23:09:00 <Vorpal> http://svn.irssi.org/repos/irssi/trunk/COPYING
23:09:00 <Vorpal> :P
23:09:20 <Vorpal> download -> svn -> irssi -> trunk -> COPYING
23:09:43 -!- antivigilante has joined.
23:09:50 <cpressey> sure, hide it in the sources.
23:09:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, this is easier to read in browser (doesn't open download dialog): http://svn.irssi.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/irssi/trunk/COPYING?view=markup&revision=4488&root=irssi
23:10:04 <cpressey> also: "nethack-lisp"? this means what now?
23:10:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, what about it?
23:10:36 <Vorpal> isn't it just the emacs interface to nethack?
23:10:44 <Vorpal> hm
23:10:50 <Vorpal> that would be nethack-el?
23:11:02 <cpressey> yes, that is nethack-el
23:11:13 <cpressey> thus my wonderment at -lisp
23:11:14 <Vorpal>  - nethack-lisp   : Lisp window version.
23:11:28 <cpressey> still not exactly illuminated.
23:11:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, I don't have any ubuntu based system turned on atm
23:11:31 <Vorpal> can't check
23:11:36 <cpressey> well, i'll try it
23:11:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, nethack-el depends on nethack-lisp though
23:12:19 <fizzie>  This package contains the Lisp window version, required
23:12:19 <fizzie>  for playing Nethack under Emacs.
23:12:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, "lisp window" eh?
23:12:35 <fizzie> That's what the package description says.
23:12:44 <Vorpal> I wonder what it means
23:12:53 -!- augur has joined.
23:13:05 -!- catseye has joined.
23:13:13 <Vorpal> catseye, hm?
23:13:19 <catseye> weechat!
23:13:22 <Vorpal> ah
23:13:35 <fizzie> NetHack has the term "window system" for all the frontends; I guess that's just something lisp-friendly.
23:13:53 <Vorpal> perhaps
23:14:00 <fizzie> And the -el package would have the Emacs-lisp side of it.
23:14:26 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:29 <Vorpal> it doesn't depend on anything lispy
23:14:35 <Vorpal> Build-Depends: flex, bison, groff-base, debhelper (>= 7), libx11-dev, libxt-dev, libxext-dev, libxmu-dev, bsdmainutils, libxaw7-dev | libxaw-dev, libncurses5-dev | libncurses-dev, libqt3-mt-dev (>= 3:3.3.4-7), dpatch, po-debconf, xfonts-utils
23:14:48 <fizzie> Well, why should it?
23:14:51 <catseye> wow!
23:14:52 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:14:59 <catseye> this is what you get when you run nethack-lisp: http://pastie.org/1211870
23:15:02 <Vorpal> ncurses and libxaw?
23:15:10 <catseye> i can't get past that prompt yet
23:15:13 <Vorpal> catseye, hah
23:15:32 <Vorpal> catseye, try one of 1 2 and 1?
23:15:48 <catseye> Vorpal: it just exits no matter what i put in
23:15:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's build-depends; it's for building all the frontend packages.
23:16:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but stilll
23:16:06 <Vorpal> still*
23:16:08 * catseye thinks he likes weechat slightly better than irssi
23:16:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, it was the build deps I meant
23:16:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it is written in C I presume
23:16:34 <fizzie> Sure, why not? It only needs to print out sexprs.
23:19:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, and perhaps parse them
23:20:51 <fizzien900> Not if it just prompts for numbers and strings, though.
23:21:07 <fizzien900> Whoops, maybe I should close this.
23:21:20 <Vorpal> fizzien900, well maybe it wants (93) or such
23:21:23 -!- fizzien900 has quit (Quit: wuup).
23:21:35 <catseye> oh hey, i didn't try 121.. that does something
23:21:48 <Vorpal> catseye, that's absurd
23:22:02 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe (121 option) ?
23:22:05 <Vorpal> or such
23:22:08 <Vorpal> or just 121
23:22:10 <Vorpal> y
23:22:22 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe 121 is there to identify what it is responding to
23:22:35 <Vorpal> catseye, and what is that "something
23:22:37 <Vorpal> "
23:22:57 <catseye> aoops, made it segfault by typing in 105 at a help prompt
23:23:13 <Vorpal> catseye, so what did 121 do?
23:23:40 <catseye> Vorpal: apparentl it meant "y" as it rolled me a character
23:24:43 <catseye> oh duh
23:24:47 <catseye> ascii values i bet
23:25:11 <fizzie> There's sources for both the elisp interface as well as the lisp window system, so you don't really *need* to reverse-engineer it by trial-and-error.
23:25:18 <catseye> what's the key to redraw the screen in nethack?
23:25:37 <catseye> i want to see this thing give me a map
23:26:01 <Vorpal> catseye, why ascii code... you mean it sends it as number?
23:26:10 <Vorpal> (gdb) print 'y'
23:26:11 <Vorpal> $1 = 121 'y'
23:26:14 <Vorpal> hm indeed
23:26:15 <catseye> Vorpal: for the prompts, yes.  121=y, etc
23:26:19 <catseye> not for commands though
23:26:26 <fizzie> ^ord y
23:26:26 <fungot> 121
23:26:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah didn't know that
23:26:39 <Vorpal> ^show ord
23:26:39 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
23:26:44 <Vorpal> yeargh
23:26:59 <augur> what is that now
23:27:04 <fizzie> Decimal output in bf is necessarily a bit yeargh.
23:27:49 <catseye> a bit, a bit
23:28:22 <catseye> i give up for now -- the menu prompts want something that i cannot give it and they keep segfaulting
23:28:45 <catseye> pretty cool though
23:28:50 <catseye> more games should have lisp interfaces
23:30:47 <Vorpal> catseye, weird that it likes to segfault though
23:31:31 <catseye> CLiEnTS sHOUlD bE WRittEn prOPErLY!!.
23:31:35 <Vorpal> catseye, I mean, most programs I would expect would find segfaulting pretty scary!
23:31:43 <ais523> <catseye> what's the key to redraw the screen in nethack? <--- control-R
23:32:02 <ais523> fizzie: amazingly, the NetHack windowing system is the only part of the code that's actually documented
23:32:07 <Vorpal> catseye, um, what?
23:32:14 <ais523> there's a file in nethack-3.4.3/doc somewhere that explains the API
23:32:19 <Vorpal> catseye, I didn't mean that at all, why did you assume that!
23:33:13 <Vorpal> ais523, there are actually comments elsewhere in the code
23:33:18 <ais523> that doesn't really count
23:33:20 <Vorpal> ais523, does that not count as documentation?
23:33:23 <ais523> mostly they don't explain APIs
23:33:28 <ais523> but rather other things
23:33:39 <Vorpal> ah
23:33:39 <ais523> also, there's the infamous PUT THINGS THAT HAPPEN ONCE PER PLAYER INPUT HERE comment
23:33:48 <Vorpal> ais523, oh?
23:33:50 <ais523> which is a) completely accurate, and b) followed by things that shouldn't happen once per player input
23:33:54 <Vorpal> ais523, infamous why?
23:34:13 <Vorpal> ais523, so what are those things that shouldn't be done there?
23:34:14 <ais523> thus the docs are correct, but the code is wrong
23:34:19 <ais523> Vorpal: by mistake, presumably
23:34:22 <ais523> it leads to the lava time bug
23:34:27 <Vorpal> ais523, not why, what
23:34:36 <Vorpal> ah
23:34:42 <ais523> and possibly also the reverse lava time bug, except that nobody's sure what that one is except the NetHack devteam and they aren't telling
23:34:44 <Vorpal> ais523, fixed in next release maybe?
23:34:48 <ais523> of course...
23:34:59 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
23:35:00 <Vorpal> ais523, and would the reverse one be exploitable?
23:35:22 <Vorpal> ais523, also how soon do you think next release would be?
23:35:23 <ais523> <Rodney> C343-231, fixed: Time is distorted while sinking into lava.
23:35:24 <Vorpal> a few years?
23:35:27 <ais523> Vorpal: it's on the list of exploitable bugs
23:35:33 <ais523> just nobody knows what it is
23:35:36 <ais523> and next release? who knows
23:35:57 <Vorpal> ais523, we won't see the fixed code until then
23:36:15 <ais523> nope, so we can't figure the bug that way
23:36:16 <fizzie> There's a poll in the wiki.
23:36:22 <ais523> (and even then, it may have been fixed with a rewrite...)
23:36:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, esolang wiki?
23:36:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, or nethack one?
23:36:35 <ais523> Wikia NetHack
23:36:44 <Vorpal> and what is the poll about?
23:36:56 <fizzie> Wikia one; on when the next release will be.
23:37:17 <fizzie> It's all just guesses, and not very serious ones, of course.
23:37:24 <Vorpal> ais523, you mean that they would rewrite just to hide what the bug was?
23:37:32 <Vorpal> or rewrite for other reasons?
23:37:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:38:00 <ais523> Vorpal: one of the theories for the lateness is that they tried a rewrite and screwed up the code somehow
23:38:03 <ais523> and are unwilling to revert it all
23:38:39 <Vorpal> ais523, is it just the lava thing that happens in that place and shouldn't?
23:38:41 <Vorpal> or other stuff too?
23:38:50 <ais523> just lava, I think
23:39:07 <ais523> either that, or lava plus something which has effects so subtle it isn't even obviously a bug, which wouldn't surprise me
23:39:15 <ais523> but still, the lava one is pretty bug
23:39:16 <ais523> *big
23:39:18 <ais523> well, both
23:39:30 <ais523> you can die by sinking into lava just by viewing your inventory...
23:40:05 <ais523> (I'm not sure what to change it to to fix the bug; once per time-consuming action, or once per monster turn)
23:40:13 <ais523> (there's a flavour justification for either)
23:40:42 <Vorpal> ais523, is there a difference between those?
23:40:56 <ais523> yep, say the player's wearing fireproof speed boots
23:41:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also, can monsters sink in lava?
23:41:12 <ais523> more dramatically, suppose the player falls asleep
23:41:12 <catseye> Vorpal: Why did I assume what?
23:41:22 <ais523> monster lava handling is rather simpler, either they instadie, or they're immune
23:41:27 <Vorpal> ah
23:41:43 <Vorpal> catseye, that I meant the code should be properly written
23:41:53 <Vorpal> catseye, <Vorpal> catseye, I mean, most programs I would expect would find segfaulting pretty scary!
23:42:16 <Vorpal> that is quite a different reason behind it
23:42:20 <Vorpal> now, night →
23:52:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:52:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:53:22 <alise> <coppro> alise: your client won't connect to me :(
23:53:23 <alise> ?
23:53:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:54:10 -!- augur has joined.
23:56:54 <alise> brb
23:58:00 -!- oklopol has joined.

2010-10-11:

00:02:17 <cheater99> (:
00:06:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:07:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:15:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:16:05 <Gregor> <3 VSTi's
00:16:19 <Gregor> Op. 11 string quartet is starting to sound actually GOOD!
00:17:35 <pikhq> Perhaps it'd sound better if you blackmailed a string quartet.
00:17:43 <Gregor> It would of course.
00:17:51 <Gregor> But I have no blackmail on string quartets :P
00:19:16 -!- Harpyon has joined.
00:23:10 <pikhq> Hmm. So, my high school had two Japanese teachers. One was fluent in Japanese. The other had once been in Japan for a couple of weeks.
00:23:17 <pikhq> Which one do you think they fired? Go on, guess.
00:25:19 <Harpyon> both?
00:25:22 <Gregor> The fluent one has to be payed more because he's more skilled.
00:25:26 <Gregor> Therefore, he should be fired.
00:25:31 <Gregor> Because firing him saves more money.
00:25:40 <Gregor> This is the same reason why you cut music instead of PE.
00:25:58 <pikhq> Oh, and the guy who had once been in Japan was fluent in German.
00:26:11 <Gregor> Does he teach German too?
00:26:12 <pikhq> Guess what language he no longer teaches!
00:26:18 <pikhq> Gregor: He did.
00:26:20 <Harpyon> german!
00:27:28 <Gregor> Then they don't have to pay him as a skilled German teacher, only a unskilled Japanese teacher :P
00:28:17 <pikhq> And I get to wince at the idea of students taking a year to learn kana.
00:29:22 <pikhq> (KANA IS FREAKING EASY)
00:31:07 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Kana_chart.png Do you think it should take a year to learn this?
00:31:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:31:29 <Gregor> Me?
00:31:31 <Gregor> It would take me decades.
00:31:47 <pikhq> I highly doubt that.
00:32:00 <Gregor> I think you underestimate my inability to learn foreign languages.
00:32:08 <Gregor> Also my ability to correctly use subtle double-negatives.
00:32:18 <pikhq> This has very little with foreign languages per se.
00:32:21 <pikhq> Just orthography.
00:32:33 <pikhq> By which I mean "little doodles on paper".
00:32:53 <pikhq> Also, I highly doubt you have an actual inability to learn foreign languages.
00:33:05 <pikhq> Just an inability to put up with the bullshit that is your typical foreign language course.
00:33:34 <Gregor> I will soon have an upload of op. 11 string quartet I actually like.
00:33:39 <Gregor> I ... I don't even know how this is possible.
00:34:30 <pikhq> Seriously, foreign language classes usually *suck ass*.
00:35:13 <pikhq> (see Engrish for details)
00:38:37 <Gregor> I think that statement demeans ass-suckers everywhere.
00:39:12 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it does.
00:39:18 <catseye> So - there are 3 partitions.  The recovery partition is it's own partition.  The Windows partition is fux0red and I want to re-install it. Ubuntu is on the 3rd.  Ubunto also has all the stuff I copied over from the non-bootable Windows partition, AND the R part of the DVD-R is broken, AND I don't have enough flash drive to put all of that stuff on.
00:39:48 <Gregor> catseye: And?
00:39:53 <catseye> The recovery program warns me it will wipe out 'drive C:'.  I hope this means the WIndows partition.  ANd that it leaves partition #3 alone.
00:40:06 <Gregor> It does not.
00:40:10 <Gregor> It means the entire disk.
00:40:12 <Gregor> I guarantee you this.
00:40:24 <Gregor> I guarantee it with my Super-Pessimism Powers
00:40:24 <catseye> Including itself?  I don't think THAT is the case.
00:41:47 <Gregor> No, not itself :P
00:41:50 <catseye> (well, I KNOW it's not the case, as I've used it before.  but I didn't have anything on the 3rd partition at the time, so I don;t know what happens there)
00:41:57 <Gregor> But it probably reinitializes the partition table to its saved default.
00:44:07 <alise> back
00:44:13 <alise> pikhq: Let's see if I can't get this bitch of a game running.
00:44:30 <pikhq> alise: Whooo.
00:44:54 <alise> Groan.
00:45:06 <alise> pikhq: The "original" disc is the Sold-Out rerelease. Which is alright.
00:45:08 <alise> But.
00:45:11 <alise> It's not original :P
00:45:16 <alise> But it does have the exact original installer on it.
00:45:18 <alise> So that's okay.
00:45:27 <pikhq> It's at least something that was put on a disc at one point, though.
00:45:39 <alise> So was the Russian monstrosity.
00:46:03 <pikhq> Something *sane* that was put on disc.
00:46:41 <Gregor> OMGOMGOMG
00:46:51 <alise> pikhq: WOOT FULLSCREEN INSTALLER
00:46:51 <Gregor> This is sooooo good.
00:46:51 <Gregor> <3 VSTi's so much
00:46:52 <alise> (Fails to start)
00:47:05 <alise> pikhq: do not worry!
00:47:10 <alise> I have SCIENCE on my side.
00:48:54 <alise> pikhq: The installer starts!
00:49:03 <alise> Oh man this is the one with the radioactive hazard sign on the sheep.
00:49:07 <alise> (...just a graphic when it installs.)
00:49:26 <alise> Lawl, it installs so quickly that you barely see it.
00:51:58 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg
00:53:48 <alise> pikhq: Now I just gotta get NoCD working and see about DirectDraw.
00:54:17 <alise> Worms: Armageddon v3.6.29.0 Beta [EURO] No-CD/Fixed EXE #2
00:54:19 <alise> Worms: Armageddon v3.6.29.0 Beta [EURO] No-CD/Fixed EXE #1
00:54:21 <alise> I LIKE HOW IT DOESN'T DISTINGUISH THEM
00:59:39 <coppro> alise: status update?
00:59:50 <alise> coppro: I have it almost working!
00:59:57 <alise> Just need to find an updated DirectDraw and I'll have a complete guide.
01:00:12 <coppro> I have a win7 one. That's probably wrong, right?
01:00:22 <alise> coppro: Dude, I gave you a direct link to a torrent.
01:00:25 <alise> That is the *only one* that will work.
01:00:33 <coppro> alise: I mean the directdraw dll
01:00:34 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Need a Windows DirectDraw?
01:00:36 <alise> In fact, me and pikhq gave you a link to the same torrent simultaneously, right after you asked.
01:00:39 <alise> coppro: oh
01:00:42 <alise> pikhq: no
01:00:44 <alise> pikhq: it's a patched WINE one
01:00:54 <alise> don't worry, i got this under control :P
01:01:09 <alise> [[madewokherd has stopped updating ddraw.dll for new Wine versions. Instead, he recommends to: grab the patch attached to wine bug 2082, apply the wined3d part, build wine (if someone wants to precompile them, wined3d.dll can presumably be dropped in like ddraw was, but the wined3d api changes often), set DirectDrawRenderer to "gdi"]]
01:01:12 <alise> NO FUCK YOU
01:01:17 <pikhq> Aaaaw. Windows DirectDraw is so much easier to get.
01:01:31 <alise> pikhq: hey friend
01:01:32 <alise> wanna compile wine?!
01:01:41 <pikhq> No thanks.
01:01:53 <alise> pikhq: but you were going to anyway :P
01:02:00 <Gregor> I compiled wine yesterday.
01:02:14 <pikhq> I compiled it once today. That's enough.
01:02:19 <alise> Gregor: With that specific patch?
01:02:37 <alise> http://bugs2.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=17739
01:02:39 <alise> Look how small it is!
01:02:41 <alise> Look!
01:02:45 <alise> YOU JUST WANT TO COMPILE IT
01:02:49 <Gregor> 'course not!
01:03:51 <alise> what, how come it works fullscreen but not in a window.
01:04:11 <alise> ("Works")
01:05:01 <Gregor> Gaaaaaaad, from 5:30 on it's totally real.
01:05:02 <Gregor> THIS IS MAGIC
01:05:02 <Gregor> DARK MAGIC
01:05:10 <Gregor> (The good kind)
01:05:20 <alise> coppro: Compile Wine.
01:05:41 <alise> Gregor: The good kind of dark magic, i.e. light magic.
01:05:43 <Gregor> Pooppy can't solve all your problems!
01:06:06 <Gregor> alise: RACIST
01:06:19 <coppro> alise: You just told me not to do that
01:06:32 <alise> coppro: In this case, there's an excellent reason to.
01:06:36 <alise> coppro: *Not* to use the created Wine.
01:06:40 <alise> But for one specific DLL.
01:06:42 <pikhq> Gregor: My goodness, it sounds like music.
01:06:52 <coppro> alise: q1) Must I apply that patch?
01:07:02 <Gregor> pikhq: I KNOW
01:07:06 <coppro> q2) Give me the necessary git commands to checkout the repo version and I'll do it
01:07:07 <alise> coppro: You must. Hey wait, I have an idea.
01:07:10 <alise> "> Here is compiled wined3d.dll.so for wine 1.2 with this patch. Enjoy!"
01:07:11 <pikhq> Synthesised, to be sure, but... Good.
01:07:13 <alise> 1.2 is almost 1.3, right?
01:07:15 <alise> Let me try that one.
01:07:16 <Gregor> The section from 7min is downright haunting.
01:07:24 <alise> your mom is downright haunting
01:07:28 <pikhq> alise: ... Wait, you're needing d3d.dll?
01:07:38 <coppro> alise: if it doesn't work, I repeat my comment about git
01:07:39 <alise> pikhq: wined3d.dll. PATCHED.
01:07:41 <alise> A specific patch.
01:07:53 <Gregor> pikhq: Actually IMHO the main reason it's noticeably synthesized is the usual synth "too perfect" problem.
01:08:09 <alise>  0% [                                       ] 13,820      3.02K/s  eta 11m 13s
01:08:12 <alise> Yay two meg files that take five years to download
01:08:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, the high bit kinda sucks.
01:08:14 <alise> Oh now it's sped up
01:08:19 <pikhq> alise: Any reason the real d3d.dll won't work?
01:08:26 <alise> pikhq: Because it's a hacky patch that breaks most things.
01:08:30 <alise> tl;dr wine is shit, this hack fixes it
01:08:34 <Gregor> pikhq: You mean the solo violin held note?
01:08:42 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeah, it's awful :P
01:08:52 <Gregor> pikhq: But everything surrounding that is awesome! X-P
01:08:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Sounds more like a viola. But yeah.
01:09:00 <cpressey> !userinterps
01:09:02 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
01:09:26 <cpressey> !sfedeesh BLACK MAGIC
01:09:33 <EgoBot> BLECK MEGIC
01:11:13 <cpressey> i agree, it sounds a bit more realstruments
01:11:36 <alise> coppro:
01:11:38 <alise> http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/system/emulators/wine/wine-1.3.4.tar.bz2
01:11:43 <alise> Apply this patch: http://bugs2.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=17739
01:11:45 <alise> build
01:12:05 <alise> and extract wined3d.dll(maybe .so after that)
01:12:09 <alise> Upload it somewhere
01:12:11 <alise> Rejoice
01:12:36 <pikhq> Gregor: This is reminding me once again that you make awesome music. :P
01:15:09 <alise> coppro: :|
01:16:17 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, how goes Opus 13 Movement 2?
01:16:42 <Gregor> pikhq: I can't play it 8'(
01:16:46 <alise> coppro: are you actually doing that? :P
01:16:55 <Gregor> When I make the "final" recording I like to actually play it through, no severe edits, properly.
01:17:04 <Gregor> Every time I've tried, I've screwed up horribly somewhere.
01:17:11 <Gregor> It makes me go "argh"
01:17:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Aaaaaw.
01:17:20 <pikhq> YOU NEED BETTER HANDS
01:17:34 <alise> pikhq: Ping coppro.
01:18:02 <pikhq> coppro: CONSIDER THYSELF PIN
01:18:11 <pikhq> coppro: CONSIDER THYSELF PINGÉD
01:18:31 <alise> Consider thyself the pin thou art.
01:19:24 <pikhq> How pin þou art.
01:20:25 <alise> coppro: You know, your only hope of getting this guide today is to do that :P
01:20:26 <alise> pikhq: You do it.
01:21:03 <pikhq> alise: Oh, fine, fine.
01:21:06 <alise> "[NEXT CONTEST] What will THIS post's point count be midnight on Monday? Winner gets free copy of TF2, Minecraft, or donation satisfaction."
01:21:08 <alise> GET
01:21:08 <alise> THE
01:21:08 <alise> FUCK
01:21:10 <alise> OFF
01:21:10 <alise> MY
01:21:11 <alise> REDDIT
01:21:14 <alise> pikhq:
01:21:15 <alise> <alise> http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/system/emulators/wine/wine-1.3.4.tar.bz2
01:21:16 <alise> <alise> Apply this patch: http://bugs2.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=17739
01:21:18 <alise> <alise> build
01:21:20 <alise> <alise> and extract wined3d.dll(maybe .so after that)
01:21:22 <alise> <alise> Upload it somewhere
01:21:24 <alise> <alise> Rejoice
01:21:35 <alise> Note: Do not use the resulting compilation; that patch is evil and it breaks more applications than it fixes.
01:21:41 <alise> It is useful solely for the extraction.
01:22:18 <pikhq> ./configure&&make -j3, away!
01:22:45 <pikhq> Dang, that is one evil patch.
01:22:47 <alise> pikhq: You trust wine with -j3?
01:22:53 <alise> I treat Wine like nuclear waste.
01:22:55 <alise> It is VOLATILE.
01:23:10 <alise> It is possibly one of the most perverse pieces of software ever.
01:23:22 <pikhq> We'll soon see if I shouldn't.
01:23:31 <alise> "Let's clean-room rewrite an entire, crufty, backwards-compatible-to-the-80s operating system's entire library base! For Linux!"
01:23:40 <alise> "Also, let's handle all the crazy direct hardware shit it has too!"
01:23:44 <alise> TEN YEARS LATER
01:23:51 <alise> "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH OH GOD WHAT IS THIS"
01:24:10 <alise> pikhq: I like how it doesn't even bother dedenting the block.
01:24:18 <alise> It's just, like, "yeah, sure, whatever, {...} is perfectly valid."
01:25:05 <pikhq> alise: I find it quite impressive that it actually supports *all* the Win16 stuff.
01:25:08 <pikhq> Like, perfectly.
01:25:33 <alise> I basically wish Windows software would go away so I don't have to be scared by Wine.
01:25:41 <alise> It is not my kind of program.
01:26:02 <pikhq> Wine is the single hackiest thing I know of.
01:26:13 <pikhq> ... Especially its Win16 support on x86_64.
01:26:22 <Gregor> More hacky than Windows itself? ;)
01:26:38 <catseye> I've never run Wine
01:26:41 <alise> Gregor: Yes.
01:26:41 <catseye> SOUNDS LIKE FUN
01:26:55 <alise> The Windows API at least makes some sort of sense in a kernel, on bare hardware.
01:27:13 <pikhq> It relies upon how no published Win16 program actually *used* its ability to write on all memory.
01:27:31 <pikhq> So, it runs Win16 programs in actual protected mode.
01:27:56 <pikhq> 16-bit protected mode.
01:28:25 <catseye> visions of sugarplums dance in my head!
01:28:30 <Gregor> That's pretty great on an OS that has no 16-bit binary support itself.
01:28:52 <pikhq> (it convinces the Linux kernel to set up the segment table *just* right on the wineserver process)
01:29:43 <pikhq> On 32-bit Linux, it just does the whole psuedo-real mode thing and traps the interrupts. Just like everything newer than Windows 3.0 does for Win16 and DOS.
01:31:15 <alise> pikhq: This is why Wine scares me.
01:31:53 <pikhq> alise: And yet its Win16 support is the least hackish bit.
01:32:12 <pikhq> Because most of the behavior (and essentially all of the relevant behavior) is actually known.
01:32:56 <alise> pikhq: How goes that compilation?
01:33:33 <pikhq> alise: So, um. This wined3d.dll.so. I hope it doesn't need to go in the system install of WINE.
01:34:24 <alise> pikhq: It does not.
01:34:29 <alise> pikhq: filebin.ca if you have it
01:34:42 <pikhq> Going.
01:34:58 <alise> I have to go in about six minutes, so yeah, quickness is nice.
01:34:58 <calamari> has anyone tried some kind of qemu hybrid, where the program is run in qemu, but the wm is intercepted so that X displayed the windows?
01:35:30 <pikhq> Uploading.
01:35:38 <alise> calamari: that's called qemu + vnc server or whatever
01:35:41 <alise> or remote X
01:35:54 <pikhq> Wondering if it'll cooperate.
01:36:22 <pikhq> Uploading at... Slow.
01:36:50 <calamari> alise: so that would act like wine, where i could run windows apps in X?
01:36:50 <alise> pikhq: How big's it?
01:36:52 <alise> Also, stop that torrent.
01:36:57 <pikhq> alise: 5MB
01:37:04 <alise> calamari: Very slowly and with little to no keyboard integration.
01:37:06 <alise> Erm.
01:37:08 <alise> Clipboard.
01:37:17 <pikhq> 20 kbps; should be a couple minutes.
01:37:17 <alise> pikhq: Hurry uuup I have to go and I'd like to make sure it works first.
01:37:20 <calamari> cool, I must try it
01:37:20 <Gregor> calamari: Closest you'll get is VirtualBox's "seamless" (is that the name?) mode.
01:37:27 <Gregor> Well, closest you'll get without X forwarding.
01:37:50 <pikhq> Seamless mode sucks.
01:37:53 <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
01:37:56 <alise> It does.
01:38:02 <pikhq> It just makes the desktop transparent.
01:38:15 <alise> Parallels' seamless mode is ebtter
01:38:17 <alise> But that's a mac thing.
01:38:21 <alise> `addquote <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
01:38:43 <alise> pikhq: I'm already totally late at sleeping my friend, do not taunt happy fun Worms player.
01:38:44 <pikhq> alise: http://filebin.ca/gsmdxg/wined3d.dll.so
01:38:45 <HackEgo> 238|<calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
01:38:46 <Gregor> calamari: ... wtf?
01:38:54 <alise> Gregor: wtf?
01:39:10 <Gregor> calamari: Also, wine. It's, y'know, the topic of conversation here for the last day X-P
01:39:17 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:39:25 <calamari> yeah wine failed me :(
01:39:34 <calamari> the game wanted 16-bit color mode
01:39:45 <alise> pikhq: It almost works!
01:39:47 <alise> Menu works it crashes.
01:39:50 <catseye> calamari: what kind of cereal are YOU eating?
01:40:01 <calamari> catseye: store brand, believe it or not
01:40:09 <Gregor> Did you get this game in a cereal box fifteen years ago?
01:40:52 <alise> pikhq: Everything but playing an actual game works.
01:41:00 <pikhq> alise: Balls.
01:41:09 <calamari> copyright on the disc is 2005
01:41:17 <calamari> got it a few weeks ago
01:41:19 <alise> pikhq: Do not despair! I will get it working.
01:41:37 <alise> pikhq: My current great-great terrible idea is to compile wine <1.0, which I know to have worked in the past.
01:41:52 <alise> But hey, it logs into WormNET.
01:42:22 <alise> Does it?
01:42:24 <alise> I'm not sure.
01:42:29 <alise> It does! Err...
01:42:33 <alise> That doesn't look like WormNET.
01:42:48 <calamari> alise: btw how does a vnc server help.. wouldn't that just show the entire desktop, same as regular qemu?
01:42:55 <alise> calamari: well.
01:42:57 <alise> X forwarding
01:43:02 <alise> but windows doesn't do X
01:43:06 <alise> if it's a game it won't be in a window anyway
01:43:14 <catseye> omg use webex NO
01:43:51 <alise> wat xD
01:44:05 <alise> pikhq: Well, you know what?
01:44:13 <alise> pikhq: I'll have a guide and something working by tomorrow.
01:44:16 <alise> Thanks for your help.
01:44:21 <catseye> vnc-like (-based?) conferencing tool
01:44:47 <catseye> tends to freak out when two users are both "the presenter"
01:44:57 <catseye> infinite recursion of desktop display
01:45:53 <alise> i like such recursion.
01:45:59 <alise> and pointing cameras at their display
01:46:08 <alise> Goodnight.
01:46:10 <alise> Bye.
01:46:13 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:54:22 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet.flac Quell thy FLACitude.
02:05:58 <catseye> *Main> gParse "SIIKK"
02:06:00 <catseye> (Pair S (Pair I (Pair I (Pair K K))),"")
02:06:02 <catseye> WRONG.
02:06:26 <catseye> this is quite a bit trickier than the actual reduction part, it seems
02:08:34 -!- cimon has joined.
02:22:27 <catseye> *Main> kParse "SSIIK"
02:22:28 <catseye> (Pair (Pair (Pair (Pair S S) I) I) K,[])
02:22:37 <catseye> Better!  DOesn't handle parens yet though.
02:26:15 <Gregor> HTML5 Audio should have a "pipe raw audio here" function.
02:26:31 <Gregor> Then you could write decoders in JS and not be stuck to a format.
02:31:28 <catseye> *Main> kParse "SS(IIK)"
02:31:29 <catseye> (Pair (Pair S S) (Pair (Pair I I) K),"")
02:31:31 <catseye> w00t
02:33:01 <catseye> http://pastie.org/1212086 <-- my awful code
02:34:06 <Gregor> catseye, cpressey: Is there a reason you're having an identity crisis?
02:34:25 <catseye>  
02:34:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:34:30 <cpressey>  
02:34:33 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:34:47 <catseye> Gregor: the reason is weechat
02:38:12 -!- cimon has left (?).
02:38:24 <Gregor> Obviously we didn't excite cimon too much :P
02:39:06 <Quadlex> Sadness
02:39:19 <Quadlex> ten again, esoteria can alienate the normal and benign
02:39:39 <Quadlex> Also, those who don't like madness or tentacles, c.f. Cthulhu
02:39:42 <Gregor> Eleven again.
02:40:22 <Quadlex> twoche
02:40:28 <Quadlex> (Spelling deliberate)
02:40:42 <Gregor> Threede!
02:40:54 <catseye> Four shame.
02:40:56 <Gregor> (Obscure Spanish pun intentional)
02:41:11 <Quadlex> One of my favourite chunks of The Goon Show
02:41:16 <Quadlex> Touche
02:41:18 <Quadlex> Threeche
02:41:19 <Quadlex> Sabrina
02:41:23 <Quadlex> All:  HOORAY!
02:47:23 <catseye> "It's a fast, statically typed, compiled language that feels like a dynamically typed, interpreted language."
02:47:37 <catseye> ... it's actually not a very nice feeling...
02:48:20 <catseye> I'm going to check out Plof instead.
02:51:58 <pikhq> Which is a runtime defined language. :)
02:53:01 <catseye> Which FEELS like a runtime defined languag!
02:53:07 <catseye> *language
02:53:18 <catseye> or did, until I just got the error message, "Cast failed
02:55:20 <catseye> Argh Gregor makin' me install autoconf
02:56:00 <Gregor> Did you download plof3, or Fythe?
02:57:16 <catseye> Gregor: hg clone https://codu.org/projects/plof/hg/ plof
02:57:22 <catseye> Do you recomment Fythe instead?
02:57:27 <catseye> *d
02:57:28 <Gregor> No(t yet)
02:57:42 <Gregor> Plof3 works, Fythe is but the fevered dream of a madman :P
02:58:01 <pikhq> Well, Fythe has working parts.
02:58:18 <catseye> Gregor: configure.ac:7: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_INIT_AUTOMAKE
02:58:26 <catseye> I love the "possibly"
02:58:41 <Gregor> catseye: Don't blame autoconf on the fact that you don't have automake installed :P
02:58:45 <catseye> IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE IN THE SYMBOL TABLE. i can't be arsed to check
02:58:59 <Gregor> 'snot a symbol table, 's a macro expansion.
02:59:11 <Gregor> That message means "This looks like it's probably a macro"
02:59:11 <catseye> automake is already the newest version.
02:59:22 <catseye> sez apt-get instal
02:59:31 <Gregor> Then somehow autoconf and automake aren't happy with each other.
02:59:35 <Gregor> What command did you use? autoreconf?
02:59:41 <catseye> yay Ubuntu yay
02:59:44 <catseye> autoconf
02:59:51 <pikhq> There's your problem.
02:59:52 <Gregor> Use autoreconf
02:59:53 <pikhq> autoreconf
03:00:06 <catseye> There's an autoREconf?  oh fuck computers are amazing
03:00:36 <Gregor> autoreconf, in spite of its poor name, is a frontend for the whole autosuite.
03:00:42 <catseye> whoa I have a configure script now
03:01:20 <catseye> if it doesn't know if it's a macro or what, the message should be "possiblE undefined macro".
03:01:32 <Gregor> Hm.
03:01:36 <Gregor> Indeed it should.
03:02:23 <catseye> "or maybe you are write stupid code in your .ac and will face FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES!"
03:03:23 <Gregor> error: possibly undefined macro: FULL_LIFE_CONSEQUENCES
03:04:30 <Gregor> Incidentally, you might enjoy Fythe, when/iff it exists :P
03:04:47 <catseye> Gregor: I have it built, but make install didn
03:04:54 <catseye> didn't install a binary?  or
03:05:03 <Gregor> Binary name is cplof
03:05:27 <catseye> ok found it! ha
03:07:12 <catseye> output is line buffered i see
03:07:34 <catseye> Gregor: how do I find out what methods Stdin supports?
03:07:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:08:00 <catseye> #1 stupid problem of picking up a language: the common operations always have their own names
03:08:07 <catseye> and interfaces
03:08:20 <catseye> > Stdout.write (Stdin)
03:08:22 <catseye> Cast failed
03:08:37 <oklopol> "<cpressey> actually seems pretty close to the "non-repeating sequence <-> unbounded storage" thing... to have a non-self-similar fractal, you essentially need a non-repeating sequence" <<< almost all sequences are non-repeating with the usual measure
03:08:46 <catseye> > Stdin * 2
03:08:47 <catseye> Variable opMul undefined.
03:08:58 <catseye> So it does NOT support multiplication.  OK!
03:09:26 <catseye> oklopol: yes.  but almost all sequences can't be generated.
03:10:12 <catseye> "Welcome to the universe!  It's mostly chaos!  And YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY."
03:11:12 <oklopol> in fact let's prove that: a periodic sequence will have the period n for some n, {x | x has period n} is a finite set, so it has zero measure with a nontrivial measure; therefore the union as n goes to infinity will also have zero measure by subadditivity
03:12:16 <catseye> i think the original question hung on whether any of these non-self-similar (or even uncomputable, let's extend it to) things had fractional dimension (i.e. were fractals); i don't see why not but have no way to show it
03:13:20 <oklopol> i couldn't find the original
03:13:20 <oklopol> :P
03:14:47 <oklopol> well clearly you can just change one point and make it non-self-similar
03:15:15 <oklopol> fractal as a R^n right?
03:15:48 <oklopol> eh
03:15:50 <catseye> i think it was Phantom_Hoover who brought it up.  Not sure exactly what he had in mind (since there are a couple of ways to define fractal measures, iirc)
03:15:52 <oklopol> *subset of
03:16:02 <oklopol> yeah i just know hausdorff dimension
03:18:02 <oklopol> where you partition into sets S, compute x^d's where d is your dimension and x \in S, and sum up
03:18:07 <catseye> |{x | x has period n}| = ω
03:18:09 <oklopol> probably all the details are wrong
03:18:17 <oklopol> huh?
03:18:30 <oklopol> oh do we have an infinite alphabet
03:18:32 <catseye> it's not infinite but it's... not finite either
03:18:39 <catseye> no, finite alphabet
03:18:45 <catseye> but n can go as large as you like
03:18:50 <oklopol> then |A|^n
03:19:17 <oklopol> no n is fixed; if it's not, then the set is countably infinite
03:19:30 <oklopol> (why countably?)
03:19:31 <catseye> oh n is fixed
03:19:48 <catseye> oh ok
03:20:24 <oklopol> i woke up at 5 am so i could do my homework
03:20:35 <oklopol> maybe i should consider doing that
03:20:46 <oklopol> unless there's more math to do here
03:20:52 <oklopol> at least i'm checking hausdorff measure
03:21:39 <oklopol> ah
03:22:55 <oklopol> you take the infimum over all such covers where all diameters are smaller than a delta, and THEN you let delta go to zero
03:23:53 <oklopol> so the function delta -> this thing is increasing because less ways to cover are permitted
03:24:40 <oklopol> and then comes in le magic: turns out just one d value can give you a nontrivial measure for any set (iirc)
03:24:58 <oklopol> hmm
03:25:09 <oklopol> more checking
03:25:23 <catseye> no math to do here!
03:25:38 <oklopol> oh erm
03:25:51 <catseye> mostly adventure games disguised as math
03:25:58 <catseye> trickery!
03:25:59 <oklopol> okay so what i said was correct, but what i meant was not, lucky me for using such vague language
03:27:30 <oklopol> or actually i guess i meant roughly correctly too
03:27:41 <oklopol> aaaaaanyway it's pretty cool this stuff here
03:28:11 <oklopol> i mean that would mean ANY metric space has a w.d. hausdorff dimension
03:30:59 <oklopol> SERIOUSLY HOW COOL IS THAT?!?
03:31:10 <oklopol> come on people get excited
03:31:41 <catseye> i'm as excited as my understanding of the material allows!
03:32:31 <oklopol> "<catseye> oh n is fixed" <<< union as n goes to infinity meant \union_{n->infty} {x | x has period n}, so it should have been clear n was fixed!
03:32:52 <catseye> i was jumping ahead!
03:33:00 <oklopol> pfft understanding, you don't have to understand when you have a definition
03:36:49 <oklopol> so why is this an outer measure... obviously empty set has measure zero, obviously subadditive using the usual 1/2^n proof, obviously monotone because same covers work for smaller set, and... wait that was all :D
03:37:49 <oklopol> monotone being A subset B => m(A) <= m(B), subadd. being m(A union B) <= m(A) + m(B) but for countable unions instead of just two
03:38:28 <coppro> what are we discussting here?
03:38:34 <coppro> it seems like interesting math
03:38:57 <catseye> measures of sets of periodic sequences, I *think*
03:39:41 <coppro> oh
03:39:58 * coppro gets back to proving things about the divisibility of the Mersenne numbers
03:40:32 <oklopol> the 1/2^n proof is as follows: sum of all e/2^n is just e, so if A = union {A_n}, for any e, we take covers for A_n such that the cover of A_i is of size at most m(A_i) + e/2^i, this is possible because m(A_i) is defined as an infimum over all covers, so you can get arbitrarily close; then you sum up you get a cover for A that's at most e bigger than sum_{i->infty} {m(A_i)}
03:40:45 <oklopol> oh and we do this for each delta separately ofc
03:41:14 <oklopol> deltas being that weird number we used in the definition of hd measure
03:41:19 <oklopol> the one that goes to zero
03:41:30 <oklopol> *-s
03:41:50 <oklopol> catseye: no now i'm just proving random things.
03:43:11 <oklopol> what i proved was that the hausdorff measure is an "outer measure", which is almost a measure but a bit less demanding
03:45:13 <oklopol> and an outer measure is actually really simple to get, because they arise from almost any kind of covering definition
03:46:48 <oklopol> ->
04:00:40 <catseye> yay 10 pm on arbitrarily-numbered dat
04:00:42 <catseye> *day
04:06:34 <catseye> In 5 minute's it will be 10:10 oh boy oh boy can't wait
04:06:45 <pikhq> Get a better time zone, you.
04:13:15 <catseye> damn,missed it
04:13:36 <catseye> oh well
04:13:46 <catseye> it will come again in... A THOUSAND YEARS?
04:13:56 <catseye> or a hundred
04:14:00 <catseye> depending
04:16:21 <Gregor> Or, a much better day will come in a year and a month and a day and an hour and a minute and a second.
04:17:06 <pikhq> Get your time machine.
04:17:29 * pikhq fetches his. Gets 3600 seconds/hour!
04:17:50 <pikhq> Reverse is broken, though.
04:18:37 -!- antivigilante has joined.
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04:18:52 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_pizza I LOVE YOU SCOTLAND
04:18:59 -!- cal153 has joined.
04:20:21 <catseye> "A common accompanying beverage is Irn-Bru, a carbonated soft drink."
04:20:24 <catseye> I'VE HAD THAT!
04:20:29 * catseye prouds
04:21:00 <catseye> (it contains three different artificial sweeteners, if memory serves)
04:22:44 -!- lament has joined.
04:43:07 <oklopol> and so i told him if he can't get his penis to behave, they're just gonna have to make him pay extra
04:45:08 -!- augur has joined.
04:45:28 <oklopol> but he just kept on sticking that thing everywhere, and i mean EVERYWHERE
04:52:04 <augur> o mai
04:52:08 * augur sticks it in oklopol
04:54:49 <oklopol> i'll respond when someone joins.
04:54:59 <oklopol> WELL I GUESS YOU JUST DID HUH
04:55:02 <oklopol> i mean
04:55:07 <oklopol> joined my virtual ass
04:55:23 <oklopol> unless i misunderstood
04:56:38 <lament> fags
04:56:57 <oklopol> that's not very nice
04:57:03 <oklopol> apologize
04:57:11 <lament> to whom?
04:57:15 <oklopol> the fags
04:57:20 <oklopol> me and lament
04:57:31 <oklopol> and that guy i aws talking about
04:57:33 <oklopol> *was
04:57:39 <Gregor> And yourself, apparently.
04:57:41 <lament> sorry, fags
04:57:57 <Gregor> The anthropomorphic cigarettes of the world forgive you.
04:58:16 <oklopol> why did lament have to apologize to himself?
04:58:33 <Gregor> <oklopol> apologize <lament> to whom? <oklopol> me and lament
04:58:36 <lament> i didn't apologize to myself
04:58:39 <oklopol> ...
04:58:40 <oklopol> oh
04:58:43 <lament> i apologized to fags
04:58:56 <oklopol> then why *and*
04:59:04 <oklopol> i already mentioned him
05:01:24 <oklopol> yeah that's right
05:01:26 <oklopol> you lost
05:01:35 <oklopol> and i wan
05:02:09 <Gregor> I was distracted by imagining you-slash-augur.
05:02:17 <Gregor> (With the emphasis on the slash)
05:02:25 <oklopol> lament: please apologize to GreaseMonkey
05:02:27 <augur> Gregor: so was i
05:02:29 <oklopol> aeroihg
05:02:31 <oklopol> *Gregor
05:03:36 <GreaseMonkey> what
05:03:48 <GreaseMonkey> i suggest you set your tab complete on "most recent"
05:03:58 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: You have committed the crime of having your nick start with 'Gr' :P
05:05:45 <oklopol> GreaseMonkey: i would never do that, because it's not possible for someone to be stupid enough to make an irc client that uses alphabetical order
05:05:50 <oklopol> i'd be wasting my time
05:06:17 <oklopol> also what GreaseMonkey erm Gregor said
05:06:40 <oklopol> my dog seems to find braindrill interesting
05:06:56 <oklopol> or maybe it just wants to poop
05:07:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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05:12:32 <catseye> weechat's tab complete seems to default to 'most recent'
05:13:09 <Gregor> xchat's is ... weird.
05:13:13 <Gregor> o[tab] = oklopol
05:13:23 <Gregor> c[tab] = it gives a disambiguation list and doesn't complete at all
05:13:34 <Gregor> o[tab][tab] = olsner, for what it's worth
05:13:37 <GreaseMonkey> yeah but the first in my list is catseye
05:13:44 <Gregor> olsner: HI YOU TOTALLY WANTED TO BE PINGED
05:15:25 <catseye> so how do I find that one Chopin tune I really like
05:15:37 <catseye> It was in a ST:TNG episode once!
05:15:41 <catseye> that's all I remember
05:15:50 <lament> you can probably find it from that
05:15:58 <lament> or you can hum it and send me a recording
05:16:10 <catseye> well, it's not Noc. 20, and not Op. 9, i know that much now
05:16:46 <pikhq> catseye: Hit Memory Alpha.
05:16:49 <catseye> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chopin
05:16:59 <pikhq> You see?
05:17:05 <catseye> it was background music, though
05:17:17 <catseye> THUS, NON CANONABLE
05:17:18 <pikhq> Aaaaaw.
05:18:58 <catseye> maybe i'll just have to borrow a compilation of his etudes from the library again
05:19:17 <pikhq> I'll just note that I'm the very model of a modern major general.
05:19:59 <catseye> "Chopin's second set of Études was published in 1837, and dedicated to Franz Liszt's mistress, Marie d'Agoult, the reasons for which are a matter of speculation."
05:20:03 <catseye> yes well
05:20:15 <catseye> speculate away!
05:21:38 <Gregor> Threesomes.
05:21:50 <pikhq> The obvious conclusion!
05:22:23 <flippo> catseye, also get the Ballades, Preludes, and Nocturnes to be safe
05:22:31 <catseye> flippo: I'
05:22:48 <catseye> I'm *pretty* sure I encountered it in his etudes.  Not 100% sure, so, yes.
05:22:58 <catseye> And WP does seem to have them all.
05:23:26 <catseye> but it's audio is not working for me now
05:23:41 <Gregor> *its
05:23:48 <Gregor> :P
05:24:35 <catseye> Oh man.
05:26:46 <catseye> etudes: are they supposed to be difficult to play, or enjoyable?  i guess both.
05:28:00 <lament> both
05:28:37 <pikhq> Huh. IPv6 makes mobile IP not suck.
05:28:49 <pikhq> So that one can have a roaming IP address.
05:30:40 <oklopol> simple puzzle: 6x6 grid, you're given domino tiles {(0, 0), (0, 1)} and {(0, 0), (1, 0)}, and you need to fill the grid in such a way that any line through the interior of the grid intersects a domino; possible?
05:33:42 <oklopol> i initially thought it was trivial, but took me ages to actually find concrete proof
05:33:53 <oklopol> (at least a minute)
05:34:22 <oklopol> (i)
05:34:31 <oklopol> (i'm not comfortable giving an upper bound)
05:34:35 <pikhq> (in mobile IPv4, packets to a roaming IP go to where they normally would be routed, and then those packets get wrapped and sent to the actual IP of the host by the "home agent". In IPv6, it works much the same except that every router is a home agent, and hosts are *expected* to be able to just wrap the packets themselves.)
05:37:54 <oklopol> the internet is such a mess
05:38:59 <pikhq> Retrofit on retrofit.
05:39:27 <pikhq> Oh, and shit hits the fan in a few months. Can't forget that.
05:40:03 <oklopol> in what sense
05:40:48 <pikhq> IPv4 addresses all gone.
05:40:56 <oklopol> oh! cool
05:41:25 <oklopol> i hate the real world, all things should be designed from scratch, never on top of old stuff. i wish there was a god.
05:41:32 <oklopol> i mean
05:41:51 <oklopol> hmm
05:41:56 <pikhq> To be fair, IPv6 has a lot of it designed from scratch.
05:42:06 <oklopol> yes it's pretty divine
05:43:34 <catseye> well, i could not find it amongst the etudes, so maybe it is a nocturne.  I do like this one though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tude_Op._25,_No._11_(Chopin)  and no. 6 is also nice
05:44:13 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124PxX6XPCM&feature=related i like this one
05:44:40 <oklopol> seriously though i don't really get this music, yet at least
05:46:01 <lament> well it's boring and crappy
05:46:15 <oklopol> well this song is pretty simple
05:46:19 <oklopol> not a good example
05:46:24 <catseye> "death metal so pungent it made my laptop reboot"
05:46:27 <catseye> well almost
05:46:33 <catseye> i saved it by fiddling with the power cord
05:46:56 <oklopol> lament: you can actually tell that's random and not just complicated?
05:47:12 <oklopol> that would save my time!
05:47:27 <lament> what
05:47:54 <oklopol> or you just think it's really simple?
05:48:07 <lament> i think it's simple
05:48:10 <oklopol> the first riff is a pretty standard thing but i don't get the latter half
05:48:55 <pikhq> Liferea, you suck at podcasts SO HARD
05:49:02 <lament> some tech metal is really complicated, this is not it
05:49:07 <catseye> good rhythm fux0ring is hard to do well.  i still think it's hard to beat Rush
05:49:13 <pikhq> "Hmm. He double-clicked on the file for a podcast. Let's *delete it and redownload it*."
05:50:04 <oklopol> the part after :40 sounds completely random to me
05:50:08 <oklopol> for a while
05:51:19 * pikhq goes with "Fuck you, I'll try compiling Miro."
05:51:34 <catseye> and i'll try sleeping
05:51:36 <catseye> good night
05:51:40 <oklopol> n
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05:54:16 <oklopol> lament: you don't happen to remember names of complicated tech bands? i chose this one because it's considered really insane.
05:54:30 <lament> no :(
05:54:40 <lament> i don't listen to metal
05:54:47 <oklopol> i know
05:55:38 <oklopol> that first riff sounds like someone added whitenoise to dimmu borgir
05:56:04 <pikhq> lament: You should.
05:56:35 <lament> life is too short to listen to all the music in the world
05:56:36 <oklopol> lament: what do you think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5_GzuM7ZiU ?
05:56:49 <oklopol> this one even i get
05:56:51 <pikhq> That's why you should be immortal.
05:56:55 <pikhq> Also, only the good music.
05:56:57 <lament> oklopol: it's nice
05:57:02 <oklopol> ?o
05:57:04 <oklopol> asfdoig
05:57:08 <oklopol> \o/
05:57:08 <myndzi\>  |
05:57:08 <myndzi\> /\
05:57:50 <oklopol> faceless is one of the few bands of this type i actually get, and still find them good
05:58:02 <oklopol> usually it's hours of listening and then realizing ah, it was crap all along
05:59:54 <oklopol> also i think i listen to this stuff because of the wrong reasons, because the same people who listen to these sensible ones listen to ones where you repeat the same riff for 5 minutes and the singer has a REALLY COOL GROWL.
06:00:07 <oklopol> maybe i should get better friends
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06:12:15 <Ilari> Hah... Ocassionally this way too: "A is the best predictor for B". Yeah, probably, since B is _known_ to _cause_ A.
06:13:10 <Ilari> (and guess what field of "science" the example of this I ran into was from?)
06:15:38 <Gregor> That doesn't mean that A is the best predictor for B, since that statement alone doesn't say that nothing else causes A.
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06:18:10 <lifthrasiir> \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/
06:18:11 <myndzi\>        |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
06:18:11 <myndzi\>      |\/<  |\/|  |\/< /|  >\/`\
06:31:49 -!- Gregor has set topic: It is the nineties and there is time for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:39:59 <pikhq> Aaand the Miro ebuild is the single most broken thing ever.
06:40:08 <pikhq> It essentially cannot build.
06:40:12 <pikhq> At all.
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06:40:23 <pikhq> There is literally no configuration of Gentoo wherein it will build anymore.
06:40:35 <pikhq> That is so very fucked up.
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07:14:45 <oerjan> <cpressey> @tell oerjan The problem with the "non-self-similar fractal" of a triangle, square, pentagon... is that as n gets large, n-gons do tend to look... well, similar.
07:16:36 <oerjan> in some sense the problem is that up to a given level of approximation, there are only a finite number of shapes.
07:17:56 <oerjan> say if by approximation you mean n*n bit pattern, only 2^(n*n) ones.
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07:54:06 <oerjan> xkcd XD
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08:08:45 <wareya> Hahahaha
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08:15:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, what? xkcd is funny? *checks*
08:16:25 <wareya> the new xkcd strip
08:16:41 <Vorpal> wareya, new? you mean the last one?
08:16:52 <wareya> the one up as of today
08:16:56 <Vorpal> right
08:18:13 <Vorpal> hah indeed
08:19:34 <oerjan> (don't forget the hovertext)
08:23:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, of course not, what was Solomon known for again
08:25:01 <oerjan> ...bloody atheist :D
08:25:03 <fizzie> The baby-splitting.
08:25:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
08:25:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, thanks :P
08:25:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, but actually I'm agnostic :P
08:26:02 <Vorpal> as in, if they manage to scientifically prove any religion I'm prepared to accept that it might be a viable theory
08:26:09 <Vorpal> fat chance for that though :P
08:29:58 <Vorpal> the only religion I know of that comes even close to not contradicting most of what we scientifically know today is Buddhism.
08:30:30 <wareya> And that's why I would be a buddhist if I ever 'had to' pick a religion.
08:30:52 <wareya> There are some supernatural flavors of buddhism, though.
08:31:37 <Vorpal> wareya, hm? Well some of the seemingly supernatural stuff is stuff there is no evidence either way for. I mean, reincarnation, there is absolutely no proof in any direction there
08:31:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
08:31:56 <Vorpal> or what did you mean?
08:32:17 <wareya> I mean the ones that worship the original buddha as a god, or that promise immediate effects of karma.
08:32:34 <Vorpal> hm okay, I wasn't aware of such variants
08:35:11 <Vorpal> wareya, in some aspects buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion I'd say
08:35:46 <wareya> It's still a religion
08:35:50 <Vorpal> true
08:35:55 <Vorpal> but less so than many other ones
08:35:58 <wareya> even if it's philosophical instead of theistic
08:36:04 <Vorpal> indeed
08:36:22 <Vorpal> wareya this is why I said "in some aspects"
08:36:50 <wareya> lol
08:37:50 <Vorpal> wareya, you are not one of those nick changers right?
08:38:02 * Vorpal keeps thinking that wareya must be warringal (sp?)
08:38:29 <wareya> I'm wareya
08:38:33 <wareya> just and only wareya
08:38:37 <Vorpal> ah okay
08:38:58 <Vorpal> those persistent nick changers are confusing. I mean, I just permanently changed nick once since I went on irc
08:39:00 <wareya> imagine a language where you can have negative sized variables
08:39:21 <Vorpal> wareya, I'd love to, but then I'll miss the bus to university. So bbl!
08:39:46 <wareya> Later
08:44:47 <lament> all kinds buddhism promise effects of karma
08:44:50 <lament> *kinds of
08:47:08 <wareya> That's why I said immediate
08:53:57 <lament> regardless of it being immediate or not that's a religious thing
08:54:32 <lament> or at least supernatural
08:55:11 <wareya> If the promises of karma's effects happen after reincarnation, then they're unarguable
09:00:34 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_characteristics_of_the_Buddha#The_32_Signs_of_the_Great_Man
09:20:44 <cheater> hello sweethearts
09:25:41 <wareya> What about that, lament?
09:53:46 <Slereah> # His sexual organs are concealed in a sheath. It also produces smegma with a fragrant odour. (Pali: kosohitavatguyho).
09:53:49 <Slereah> heheheh
09:54:24 <wareya> lol
09:58:43 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).

2010-10-12:

00:08:22 <Vorpal> creating new ones on the fly
00:08:27 <olsner> that's nice
00:08:32 <catseye> since the topics have come up: one thing DragonFlyBSD can do is sleep for very small amounts of time very accurately.  I don't remember if it's <0.1ms or not.  It accomplishes it with a PLL implemented in software.  (Whatever else may be true, Matt can be a very clever engineer.)
00:08:38 <Gregor> Awwwww, I have a purry kitty!
00:08:45 <Vorpal>  vgs
00:08:45 <Vorpal>   VG    #PV #LV #SN Attr   VSize   VFree
00:08:46 <Vorpal>   array   1   9   0 wz--n- 927,32g 543,32g
00:08:59 <Vorpal> $ lvs
00:08:59 <Vorpal>   LV         VG    Attr   LSize   Origin Snap%  Move Log Copy%  Convert
00:08:59 <Vorpal>   ccache     array -wi-ao   2,00g
00:08:59 <Vorpal>   home       array -wi-ao  70,00g
00:09:01 <Vorpal> [...]
00:09:01 <elliott> olsner: lvm isn't that useful.
00:09:09 <olsner> what happens to the file systems when you resize partitions though?
00:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on your needs
00:09:19 <elliott> specifically, it has an impossibly incomprehensibly badly designed UI
00:09:31 <Vorpal> olsner, you have to run the resizing tool for that to grow it, or shrink it in advance
00:09:33 <elliott> and you have to be like Vorpal and pretend you actually have a use for any of this shit
00:09:39 <Vorpal> olsner, ext3 can do online resising
00:09:39 <elliott> through advanced self-delusion
00:09:44 <catseye> of course, i try to search for this, all i get is netbsd
00:09:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I actually *have* use for it
00:10:15 <olsner> I'm pretty convinced that ext3 is pretty sucky
00:10:21 <catseye> here it is: http://www.dragonflybsd.org/presentations/nanosleep/
00:10:22 <elliott> Vorpal: no you don't
00:10:27 <Vorpal> true
00:10:34 <Vorpal> olsner, ext4 can as well
00:10:39 <Vorpal> olsner, same for xfs, jfs and several other ones
00:10:41 <elliott> catseye: you mean dragonfly :P
00:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, why not?
00:10:44 <elliott> not netbsd
00:10:48 <olsner> I use ReiserFS the killer file system :D
00:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have use for a lot
00:10:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not for every single feature of course
00:10:57 <elliott> Vorpal: no you don't, you just like to think you do
00:11:00 <elliott> and use the features simply because they're there
00:11:01 <Vorpal> elliott, prove it
00:11:03 <elliott> olsner: hur hur
00:11:05 <elliott> Vorpal: no.
00:11:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail
00:11:36 <catseye> elliott: unless they changed the name, it's officially DragonFlyBSD (yes, with the studly F)
00:11:40 <Vorpal> olsner, suggestion: read about lvm, make up your own mind
00:11:51 <elliott> catseye: "DragonFly BSD"
00:11:52 <elliott> on their homepage
00:11:56 <elliott> but it has the BSD catted on other pages
00:11:59 <elliott> presumably unupdated ones
00:12:01 <olsner> I would like to use ZFS, it always sounds super sexy, but iirc there are silly licensing issues that prevents integrating it in linux
00:12:07 <elliott> "Recent news from the DragonFly Digest
00:12:07 <elliott> Firefox really, finally, actually fixed
00:12:07 <elliott> ...
00:12:10 <elliott> Hey, project pages do work"
00:12:12 <catseye> elliott: then they're... breaking formation
00:12:21 <elliott> catseye: was that a pun? oh god.
00:12:26 <catseye> flying thing pun not intended! no!
00:12:46 <Vorpal> catseye, that was awful
00:12:54 <catseye> Just, all the other BSDs do vnogfffffgghhhhhhhhhhhhh not have spaces in them
00:13:03 <catseye> that word was from my cat
00:13:33 <catseye> they still gots the studly F tho
00:13:42 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, Ubuntu includes very nice Japanese fonts by default.
00:13:52 <elliott> As of two releases ago or something like that. Maybe more.
00:14:00 <elliott> catseye: Is your cat the cat whose eye it is?
00:14:38 <olsner> can eyes of cats not own other cats?
00:14:49 <Vorpal> olsner, XD
00:14:53 <Vorpal> night →→→→
00:14:56 <catseye> elliott: no, for complicated reasons
00:15:10 <elliott> catseye: Death? Destruction? Adoption? Run-away?
00:15:19 <elliott> Cat divorce?
00:16:05 <pikhq> elliott: 本当だかい。
00:16:10 <olsner> self-immolation?
00:16:18 <elliott> pikhq: TRANSLATE
00:16:20 <elliott> olsner: by a *cat*?
00:16:22 <pikhq> elliott: Oh really?
00:16:43 <elliott> pikhq: I can screenshot those characters if you restate them without highlighting me so that they aren't in ugly red.
00:16:49 <elliott> I'm pretty sure they're the takao fonts.
00:16:56 <olsner> elliott: why not?
00:16:59 <pikhq> 本当だかい。
00:17:14 <pikhq> コレモ？
00:17:34 <elliott> pikhq: http://imgur.com/yUCEF.png
00:17:55 <catseye> elliott: it is a deep mystery, involving klein bottles and tuna
00:18:12 <pikhq> Teah, that's a pretty reasonable font.
02:19:53 <Gregor> antivigilante: The sheet music isn't QUITE done yet.
02:19:59 <Gregor> antivigilante: Go read the sheet music for mov. 1 :P
02:20:07 <quintopia> i want a midi, so i can try it with my own piano samples
02:20:14 <Gregor> Oh, sure, that I can do.
02:20:20 <Gregor> In fact, I just forgot to upload that.
02:20:25 <Gregor> I usually do (a "digital piano roll")
02:20:30 <Gregor> Anyway, fixes to do ...
02:20:38 <antivigilante> cool
02:21:00 <antivigilante> I'll be checking your shit out me like
02:21:38 <Gregor> antivigilante: http://codu.org/music/
02:22:44 <quintopia> also, you wouldn't happen to have KRegor versions would you?  i don't actually hate Qt.
02:23:55 <antivigilante> oh Rosegarden
02:23:57 <antivigilante> )
02:24:03 <antivigilante> :)
02:24:07 * Gregor stabs quintopia in the face
02:25:08 <pikhq> Gregor: What's the title of this movement?
02:25:15 <Gregor> Finale in Three
02:25:28 <Gregor> <-- so original with names
02:25:45 <Gregor> Fluidsynth seems to be failing me here ... STOP CUTTING IT OFF!
02:25:46 <pikhq> Consider it tagged.
02:26:15 <quintopia> i see Gregor is a Qt hata
02:26:20 <Gregor> pikhq: It wasn't tagged either???
02:26:27 <Gregor> Argh, wtf happened producing these X_X
02:26:34 <Gregor> Cut off, untagged, weird audio, wtfwtfwtf
02:26:35 <quintopia> why you wanna be all up in my Haterade and you don't even know the flava?
02:26:46 <Gregor> Let's try that again.
02:26:49 <pikhq> Gregor: I would've had to retag it anyways; I am *picky*.
02:26:53 <quintopia> Gregorface: midimidimidimidi
02:26:59 <pikhq> ... Wait, *cut off*?
02:27:02 <Gregor> quintopia: Patience.
02:27:04 <pikhq> Gagh.
02:27:16 <Gregor> pikhq: Just the last note wasn't allowed to decay.
02:27:21 <antivigilante> ROSEGARDEN
02:27:27 <pikhq> Still, irritating.
02:27:44 <pikhq> Gregor: BTW, Finale in Three is quite nice.
02:28:51 <antivigilante> i have a conspiracy + self-help site FIT (finale in three is gold)
02:29:14 <antivigilante> FIT would be great for it
02:30:04 <Gregor> antivigilante: That ... was the most incomprehensible sentence I have ever read.
02:31:03 <antivigilante> Gregor could you add like an 8th rest so Fluidsynth doesn't drop it
02:31:23 <Gregor> antivigilante: Exactly what I'm doing :P
02:31:37 <quintopia> The sainted sentence barked wistfully reminiscent of transparent golden emotional smypathies in clever Hungarian dog-faced noodle branches.
02:32:01 <quintopia> in my humble opinion
02:32:09 <antivigilante> let me ask again - i'd like to feature this piece
02:33:37 <Gregor> antivigilante: All of my works are under CC-by-sa
02:34:23 <Gregor> But wait until I've fixed the weirdness in this ...
02:36:21 <zzo38> Try to write a music using non-standard notes other than 12-TET in some time. Try writing Bohlen-Pierce, and whatever else you can come up with
02:37:46 <Gregor> zzo38: I did once ... I ended up writing something that was just really out-of-tune 12-TET, and then rewriting that into ... Opus 8 maybe?
02:39:51 <zzo38> Gregor: Try something else, instead of just writing really out-of-tune 12-TET.... I have written a few Bohlen-Pierce musics
02:40:34 <Gregor> It wasn't my intent to write out-of-tune 12-TET X-P
02:41:51 <zzo38> Gregor: That is what I thought. What was your intent?
02:42:25 <Gregor> IIRC, it was equal-temperament 10-ary octaves.
02:43:07 <quintopia> sounds awful
02:43:34 <zzo38> Perhaps try something else next time, other than equal-temperament 10-ary octaves, and then see if you can do it better without making the same mistake
02:43:37 <quintopia> but, you know, hearing nothing but 12-TET musics for 25 years can make any variation sound awful
02:44:14 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.ogg updated, others forthcoming, http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.mid for whoever wanted a digital piano roll.
02:44:37 <zzo38> Forms of just-intonation can work well for music that does a good use of it.
02:45:00 <quintopia> suggestion: try mixing 12-TET with just intonation in some key.  it can have some very interesting effects.
02:47:01 <Gregor> Anyway, my next musical directions are either making a real acoustic version of zee3 (which may very well be worthy of becoming Opus 14) or making a conductor program and using it to make a concerto that actually doesn't sound horrible played by a computer.
02:47:21 <quintopia> notable work of this form: Tombeau de Messin by Jonathan Harvey
02:48:39 <zzo38> I am trying to add some features to PPMCK
02:49:16 <Gregor> quintopia: btw, what's your piano soundfont that's so much better than mine?
02:51:27 <lament> what does a conductor program do?
02:51:39 <lament> quintopia: bullshit
02:51:47 <lament> about any variation sounding awful
02:51:53 <lament> gamelan sounds pretty great
02:52:02 <lament> most variations sound awful because they are awful
02:52:38 <lament> they're invented by shitty musicians who care about music theory more than about music
02:52:46 <Gregor> lament: Hypothetically, allows one to add human tempo and dynamics to inhuman MIDI data. An example of such a program is Tapper, which works well but IMHO isn't suitable for multiple instruments.
02:53:00 <lament> oh, sounds cool
02:53:06 * Gregor applauds lament's willingness to say things that Gregor is thinking :P
02:54:18 <catseye> Gregor: SO when you said you were writing a conductor you were *not* referring to a bfjoust strategy?
02:54:32 <Gregor> catseye: ... *sobblecopter*
02:55:46 <antivigilante> 10ary?
02:55:58 <catseye> could always try to make it a polyglot i suppose
02:56:00 <Gregor> lament: My conductor program concept is that you go from flat MIDI to good MIDI through two phases. First you tap out the tempo, and it inserts, say, 10 tempo-change events per beat to give it a smooth tempo variation while keeping the note timing right. Then, once per instrument, you play to add dynamics, with both tapping on keys to get the coarse/attack dynamics and some kind of joystick to get the fine/decay dynamics.
02:56:29 <antivigilante> like movie editing
02:56:40 <lament> c-razy
02:56:51 <catseye> ahhh i wanna see a movie edited like that
02:57:01 <antivigilante> that's what they do
02:57:26 <catseye> well, i'm thinking more like if you could hook up a baton as the input device
02:57:47 <Gregor> catseye: AKA a wiimote
02:57:57 <catseye> Gregor: WIITON
02:58:10 <Gregor> catseye: But I don't think that's sufficiently helpful in and of itself, frankly. I really like Tapper's interface.
02:59:01 <catseye> ok
02:59:07 <catseye> well, i'm not stopping you, i guess
02:59:19 <Gregor> All that's stopping me is priorities :P
02:59:26 <catseye> per earlier (non) agreement, that means nothing stopping me from writing a specializer
02:59:31 <catseye> but first
02:59:34 <catseye> heavy drinking
03:00:00 <lament> !
03:00:38 <pikhq> Gregor: Okay, so it's Kanntàkutâ, then.
03:00:42 <Gregor> Followed by light drinking, followed by heavy petting, followed by light regrets, followed by heavy coffee, followed by very heavy regrets.
03:00:46 <Gregor> pikhq: ?
03:01:02 <pikhq> Gregor: I am forcing you to have a shitty name.
03:01:13 <catseye> Gregor: IN LIGHT OF PREV UGLINESS I REQUEST THAT YOU DO NOT USE THAT WORD
03:01:55 * Gregor wonders to which word the pressed one refers ...
03:02:42 <catseye> clog seems a mite broken today
03:02:47 <Gregor> Quite.
03:03:23 <catseye> Gregor: the word "petting".  Not while the horrors of the FURRY-INFESTED OS are still fresh in my mind, you see.
03:03:45 <Gregor> pikhq: It took me an ENORMOUS amount of time to realize that Kanntàkutâ is stupid-Japanese for "conductor"
03:04:01 <Gregor> Like, three minutes.
03:05:37 <pikhq> \o/
03:08:45 <pikhq> áìųëō If only my romanisation scheme could produce such a smattering of diacritics normally.
03:08:54 <pikhq> Sadly, it cannot.
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03:11:21 <pikhq> I shall need to get creative, and encode things nobody could possibly care about.
03:11:24 <pikhq> :P
03:12:34 * pikhq is thinking something like, oh, the Old Japanese vowel system.
03:19:26 <catseye> except probabilistic
03:26:03 <pikhq> Sure.
03:27:30 <zzo38> I don't think there is a need for Japanese romanisation scheme with strange marks, since if unicode is available, you can just write using hiragana/katakana, anyways.
03:27:56 <catseye> but how else will we reach the satellite?
03:28:42 <catseye> oh, perhaps that's just my shattered outlook on the world talking.
03:29:06 <catseye> anyway, no way i can write a specializer right now.  although i can see a couple of ways it could be done.
03:29:33 <catseye> and a couple of ways in which it really cannot be done.  because of that ol' undecidability thing.
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03:30:41 <catseye> it'
03:30:57 <pikhq> zzo38: The point is I ♥ đìäçŕīṫıçŝ.
03:34:28 <catseye> the central problem wrt the 3rd projection is that the easiest way to do the 1st 2 projections is to have a dedicated language suited to interpreters (an easily identifiable command to do the "fetch execute" cycle, for example) and this language is kind of *ill* suited for writing a specializer.
03:34:59 <catseye> so you turn the specializer on itself and it just goes 'whut?'
03:35:10 <catseye> although.........
03:38:18 <catseye> Gregor: HOW COME YOU DON'T WRITE MORE MUSIC LIKE THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe1ScoePqVA
03:38:43 <Gregor> catseye: Dude, I WROTE THAT.
03:38:50 <catseye> Gregor: DUUUUUUUUUUUUDE
03:38:52 <Gregor> Back in my afro days/daze
03:38:58 * catseye <3's Gregor
03:39:41 <pikhq> Gregor: HOW COME YOU DON'T WRITE MORE MUSIC LIKE THIS file:///dev/random
03:39:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:39:58 <Gregor> pikhq: Dude, I WROTE THAT.
03:40:06 <Gregor> Back in my avant garde days/daze
03:43:44 * catseye roots around for the surviving copies of the music he's written
03:44:01 <catseye> I don't suppose you can play MED files
03:45:10 <catseye> which means, I'm gonna have to convert it, which means, euurrr
03:45:13 <catseye> i've done it before
03:45:15 <catseye> it can be done
03:45:21 <catseye> but i have no frickin clue how anymore
03:47:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: But I want to win a big spider).
03:47:49 <catseye> ever think about the shannon-fano trees that are encoded in the control neuron pathways going to your fingers HU
03:48:04 <catseye> well they're not shannon-fano trees but
03:48:11 <catseye> they're something close right?
03:50:26 <catseye> and they're somewhere in your CNS, like, you're brain, not the control neurons themselves most likely
03:50:31 <catseye> *your
03:50:36 <catseye> SEE?
03:51:39 -!- calamari has joined.
03:52:42 <catseye> hi calamari
03:52:55 <calamari> hey
03:53:40 <catseye> calamari: what OS are you running?
03:53:43 <calamari> so I was given that "create groups" feature on facebook
03:53:54 <calamari> I'm running Ubuntu
03:54:18 <catseye> calamari: cheers.  so am I.  I'm going to see if you can listen to my music!  (what's left of it)
03:54:28 <calamari> okay
03:54:29 <catseye> but what's a "create groups" feature?
03:54:54 <calamari> that's where you can automatically add your friends to a group.. for example, GNAA..
03:55:21 <lament> my friends are already in GNAA
03:55:34 <quintopia> gregor: i dunno if it sounds better yet.  i did spend a long time coaxing it to be full stereo (bass notes on the left, high treble on the right) like a real piano.
03:56:01 <calamari> anyhow, it's a retarded feature that hopefully will be removed soon
03:56:02 <Gregor> quintopia: Coaxing your soundfont or my midi? My soundfont is like that anyway (so much so that I have to reduce it in post)
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03:56:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Baaah, just get a real piano.
03:56:39 <pikhq> Gregor: (and a pony!)
03:57:00 <Gregor> A good enough soundfont has advantages over a real piano. Also disadvantages.
03:57:00 <calamari> hey antichrist
03:57:43 <pikhq> David Firth is apparently making a feature-length film.
03:57:51 <pikhq> I'm frightened.
03:58:39 <calamari> I still enjoy my roland scb-55 midi daughterboard
04:02:39 <Gregor> calamari: That's meeeeeeeeeeee
04:03:29 * pikhq needs to do homework...
04:03:46 <quintopia> gregor: i may have to coax your midi too, since midi just doesn't do adsr right when converted to it format
04:03:59 <quintopia> also, it looks like you played this by hand on a keyboard
04:04:04 <Gregor> Yes, I did.
04:04:13 <Gregor> I won't give you a raw MIDI, it would sound like shit :P
04:04:31 <Gregor> Err, s/raw/from notation only/
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04:04:37 <calamari> Gregor: may I please, I want to hear it on my roland :)
04:05:13 <Gregor> calamari: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.mid
04:05:14 <calamari> I assume you didn't just overlay grand piano with a string font
04:05:29 <Gregor> ... wtf?
04:05:40 <Gregor> Are we talking about the same thing? :P
04:05:53 <Gregor> You must be talking about Op. 11 string quartet?
04:05:58 <calamari> yeah
04:06:07 <calamari> that was cool, guess that's not this, sorry
04:06:08 <Gregor> Ah, he's talking about op. 13 mov. 2 X-P
04:06:24 -!- Slereah has joined.
04:06:30 <Gregor> I don't have that in MIDI form, at least not real MIDI form ...
04:06:41 <Gregor> .rg doesn't like to export to MIDI when you have tempo ramping.
04:06:56 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:07:12 <Gregor> Plus I'm not using a GM soundbank for output, so all the instruments would be wrong.
04:07:25 -!- yiyus has joined.
04:07:41 <calamari> yeah that's what I was asking
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04:08:01 <calamari> hmm no midis are playing, guess I'd better troubleshoot that first
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04:08:37 <Gregor> If you're willing to fix the instruments yourself, I'll make a .mid
04:08:53 <Gregor> It won't be notationable.
04:09:01 <calamari> nah that's okay
04:09:43 <calamari> I wouldn't know which ones were supposed to be what and I'd be bugging you lol
04:09:55 <calamari> okay there we go
04:10:28 <catseye> STEP ONE: sudo apt-get install xmp
04:10:31 <calamari> op13 is gm tho, right?
04:10:36 <catseye> STEP TWO: wget http://catseye.tc/music/med/anagnoresis.med
04:10:46 <calamari> sounds awesome so far
04:10:46 <catseye> STEP THREE: xmp anagnoresis.med
04:10:57 <Gregor> calamari: op. 13 is only piano :P
04:11:13 <calamari> which happens to be great on the roland soundcanvas :)
04:11:14 <Gregor> It would be GM even if I didn't specify any programs.
04:12:32 <calamari> catseye: Gregor's song has 5 minutes to go :)
04:12:59 <calamari> programs, thank you
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04:14:26 <catseye> calamari: queue it up!  at least meanually.  it will be quite the... contrast...
04:14:33 <catseye> *manually
04:15:08 <catseye> I haz teh different style froms Gregor, even whens I te-comperosing der klazzikle-likes.
04:15:16 <calamari> hrm apparently audacious is not cool enough to support meds
04:15:20 <catseye> which this is not
04:15:28 <catseye> no, few things are.
04:15:34 <catseye> i had to hunt for xmp
04:15:37 <catseye> it does it good, though
04:15:56 <catseye> and this is not my best, but it is good to start
04:16:36 <catseye> ach, such primitive tools i was using
04:16:38 <calamari> sudo apt-get --no-install-recommends install xmp
04:16:41 <calamari> :)
04:16:55 <catseye> hm, mine doesn't install the recommends by default... I think...
04:17:12 <calamari> cool wonder how I do that, would be nice on my wii
04:18:10 <calamari> should I be hearing something while the dots are going?
04:18:21 <catseye> calamari: .... dots... ?
04:18:47 <catseye> calamari: xmp shows me a line like: Tempo[05] BPM[21] Pos[18/19] Pat[12/12] Row[16/3F] Chn[03/04]
04:18:50 <calamari> Stored patterns: 4864 ....................... (etc)
04:19:14 <catseye> I see: Stored patterns: 19 ...................
04:19:22 <catseye> then there are more lines and then the line i pasted
04:19:27 <calamari> apparently mine is corrupted
04:19:31 <catseye> gnnnrrrr
04:19:35 <calamari> Module title   : -0* "&)3 ���������������#
04:19:43 <catseye> yeeeah
04:19:52 <catseye> let me see if I uploaded that goodly or not
04:21:26 <catseye> yeah it did not survive the upload it seems.   let me try again
04:21:48 <quintopia> gregor: mpt doesn't do ADSR to the extent i would need to coax soundfont to act right.  i'd have to go through and put note offs earlier on almost every high note to fix it.  so your font is better.
04:22:37 <catseye> weird, it... does not like me
04:22:43 <calamari> ftp?
04:23:05 <calamari> (don't forget binary mode)
04:24:59 <catseye> calamari: yeah, it was on "auto" and it thought it was text I guess
04:25:06 <catseye> calamari: try d/l'ing same file again
04:26:00 <calamari> Gregor: cool your midi killed noteedit
04:26:07 <Gregor> SWEET
04:26:31 <calamari> catseye there now it's working
04:26:32 <Gregor> calamari: Presumably it's trying to notate?
04:26:39 <calamari> yeah
04:26:48 <Gregor> Hyuk
04:27:50 <catseye> calamari: cool
04:29:43 <pikhq> I love overkill sometimes.
04:29:54 * pikhq is... Using set builder notation for writing domains.
04:30:11 <coppro> pikhq: I thought you passed high school
04:30:40 <calamari> haven't listened to my mods in a while, need to
04:30:44 <pikhq> coppro: For some stupid reason, this damned calc class is having a few homework problems assigned concerning domains and ranges of N-dimensional functions.
04:30:51 <pikhq> coppro: Fucking retarded, I know.
04:32:05 <catseye> apparently i had this thing where I would write in ABA format, with A in a minor key and very funky, and B in a major key and very happy
04:32:29 <pikhq> So, yeah. I'm using set builder notation because dammit I can.
04:32:33 <catseye> (this was... like 1991-1992... pre-Befunge)
04:34:11 <coppro> pikhq: What school?
04:34:21 <pikhq> "Pikes Peak Community College".
04:34:32 <pikhq> I'm taking this class there because it's cheap and I'm cheap.
04:36:48 <lament> ABBA
04:39:04 <catseye> I'm not being fair to myself.  Several of them go like ABAC ending on a completely different pattern
04:40:47 <catseye> also, I think xmp can play .lha'ed files directly
04:40:53 <catseye> calamari, Gregor: http://catseye.tc/music/med/retrograde.lha
04:41:04 <Gregor> I ... don't know what a .lha is.
04:41:11 <catseye> Gregor: xmp will know.
04:41:19 <Gregor> I don't have xmp
04:41:20 <calamari> compressed format from the stone ages
04:41:21 <catseye> It's an ancient archive format.
04:41:23 <catseye> Gregor: GET IT
04:41:27 <catseye> (sorry to channel alise)
04:41:30 <Gregor> Is there a command-line equivalent that will also know?
04:41:35 <Gregor> (I assume xmp is X-mp)
04:41:37 <catseye> Gregor: sudo apt-get install xmp
04:41:56 <Gregor> catseye: Cool kids use aptitude
04:41:58 <catseye> xmp is all command line afaict
04:42:01 <catseye> Gregor: w/e
04:42:09 * calamari gets to try out this lha program
04:42:10 <catseye> (=whatever JUST GET IT)
04:42:12 <Gregor> Okidoke.
04:42:24 <catseye> if it can't handle lha, it sucks.  also lha is easy to get
04:42:28 <Gregor> What is .tc anyway ...
04:42:38 <catseye> and I can point you to an unlha'ed version
04:42:41 <calamari> retrograde- Melted   :  oooooooooo
04:42:57 <Gregor> Yeah, xmp can't handle lha :P
04:43:03 <Gregor> But lha can!
04:43:10 <catseye> .tc is like, some island in somewhere ocean-like who charges five times as much per year for the privledge of using their TLD
04:43:24 <Gregor> Gee, how trackery.
04:43:28 <catseye> but catseye was free!
04:43:33 <catseye> available.
04:43:35 <Gregor> codu.org is not free.
04:43:38 <Gregor> Was available.
04:43:43 <Gregor> And is at a TLD people recognize :P
04:43:50 <catseye> Gregor: it's what i had at my disposal. Well, that and DMCS
04:44:05 <catseye> also, re ending, it was meant to be repeatable
04:44:30 <catseye> i wonder why my xmp seems to be happy as shit processing an .lha file
04:44:39 <calamari> this would be good for like a side scrolling platformer
04:44:41 <Gregor> This is a style of music I can't write. Or even consider writing. Or even consider considering.
04:44:51 <catseye> calamari: I've had other people tell me that multiple times...
04:45:08 <catseye> I write video game music, apparently.
04:45:57 <catseye> .tc = "Turks and Calcos islands"
04:46:12 <catseye> I don't even know where that is or what kind of government I am supporting with my domain name $$$.
04:46:30 <catseye> Sorry, "Caicos"
04:46:32 <Gregor> All 0 of the $$$s?
04:46:54 <catseye> Gregor: it's not FREE free
04:47:04 <coppro> catseye: A corrupt government that's currently suspended by the UK parliament for good reason
04:47:08 <Gregor> Oh, hahah, that "available" was a clarification :P
04:47:11 <catseye> coppro: right ON.
04:47:21 <calamari> I'm using mydomains.com, the cheesiest registrar ever, but they've actually been good to me
04:47:35 <coppro> (but, since they're being administered by the UK, one would hope the next government is not as corrupt)
04:48:02 <coppro> the actual nation is a handful of islands in the Carribean with a massive wealth gap typical of Carribean nations
04:48:10 <quintopia> Game will have narrative: "Hopefully there'll be some kind of narrative into the game. Like some kind of overarching goal that you could reach. But the idea is to have it really difficult, so it would be like NetHack, you don't win the game, you just hear about the people win the game." (39:10)
04:48:30 <calamari> currently kidsquid.com is a steaming pile of shit tho.. shouldn't have gone with zymic hosting
04:48:32 <quintopia> i might just buy minecraft when it is finished and i have the computer to run it
04:49:10 <calamari> Gregor: oh btw.. KLAX
04:49:30 <Gregor> calamari: IT IS THE NINETIES
04:49:36 <Gregor> calamari: AND THERE IS TIME FOR KLAX
04:50:00 <calamari> especially when you're getting sued for your tetris game
04:51:16 <Gregor> I was wondering if anybody would ever get that reference :P
04:51:35 <Gregor> Be ashamed that you did ;)
04:51:35 <catseye> Gregor: i totally got it because I AM OLD
04:51:36 <calamari> yeah I actually own a license to the klax rom
04:51:54 <catseye> calamari: w00t
04:52:04 <calamari> got it from starroms
04:52:21 <calamari> which is long defunct of course
04:52:53 <calamari> I am also sad to say that my 5200 basic compiler was used to bring to life a horrible port of to the atari 5200
04:53:38 <catseye> calamari: if you can stand more: this is slightly different style but has been explicitly called "this should be in a platformer!": http://catseye.tc/music/med/you_drive_me_wild.med
04:53:57 <catseye> also, it features something I can only describe as, "duelling melodies"
04:54:15 <catseye> and in an amiga tracker that means, one in L, the other in R
04:54:42 <catseye> also, some really messed up chords (like... C+E+F, whatever that is)
04:54:57 <catseye> yet, it works, or at least fails to fail badle
04:54:59 <calamari> that's a fungechord
04:55:01 <catseye> *bdaly
04:55:03 <catseye> YES
04:55:12 <catseye> *b a d l y
04:56:11 <Gregor> catseye: I disagree with the notion that this should be in platformer.
04:56:23 <Gregor> catseye: This should be in NES porn.
04:56:29 <calamari> my only musical talent is limited to badly playing my harmonica, and since I won't be getting a millionizer 2000 anytime soon, you won't have to hear it
04:56:47 <calamari> yeah this isn't platformer, sorry
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04:57:02 <catseye> well, the critic *was* crazy.
04:57:07 <pikhq> My musical talent consists of being out of practice.
04:57:22 <pikhq> Except for being able to learn music quickly. Still got that.
04:57:38 <catseye> whoever he was. i forget now.  but these were distributed with my university email address (umpresse@umanitoba.ca) and I got teh one email response.
04:57:59 <zzo38> Do you know of a NES code to divide by three?
04:58:04 <calamari> beatles rock band on drums is fun.. I suck horribly, although I was starting to be able to play some songs in medium
04:58:14 <catseye> zzo38: 6502.org should have something!
04:58:16 <coppro> I'm good at knowing which part of a song comes next
04:58:17 <coppro> that's about it
04:58:19 <calamari> interesting drum solo
04:59:05 <catseye> coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Cnc7wm-dg
05:00:19 <pikhq> calamari: That's quite some lack of talent. :P
05:00:45 <calamari> pikhq: thank you sir
05:00:51 <coppro> no, this is the best lack of talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUsbtUrXHk
05:01:14 <coppro> (except for the poor timpani player)
05:02:12 <calamari> awesome
05:02:32 <calamari> it made me laugh, so they win
05:03:29 <catseye> OH GOD
05:03:52 <catseye> H DEAR GOD
05:03:58 <zzo38> I found general multiply/divide code, but I only need to divide a sixteen bit number by a constant. Divide by 2 is easy, I already have that code. But now I need to make it divide by 3, also (using the conditional compile)
05:05:18 <calamari> does the answer have to be exactly right?
05:05:22 <pikhq> The US is now number 49 on life expectancy.
05:05:39 <pikhq> WE'RE FOURTY-NINE! WE'RE FOURTY-NINE!
05:06:09 <Gregor> pikhq: I'll bet if you listed each state, several of them would be in the top 10.
05:06:30 <calamari> zzo38: for example 85/256 = 0.332...
05:06:43 <coppro> pikhq: list?
05:06:55 <coppro> Gregor: and pennsylvania would be at the bottom?
05:07:40 <zzo38> calamari: Dividing by 2 or by 256 is easy. I only need an integer result, anyways.
05:08:01 <zzo38> But I need divide by 3. I already have the code to divide by 2.
05:08:32 <calamari> zzo38: yeah I'm saying to divide by 3, multiply by 85
05:08:44 <pikhq> Gregor: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2006/db20060913_099763.htm
05:09:25 <Gregor> pikhq: That neither confirms nor denies my claim.
05:09:27 <catseye> calamari: that's nifty
05:09:40 <zzo38> calamari: O, OK.
05:09:41 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm trying to find the WHO list.
05:10:04 <calamari> but the answer won't be 100% correct
05:11:05 <zzo38> I need to divide number as large as 0x0800 so it won't fit in 16-bits multiplying by 85
05:11:21 <pikhq> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy&oldid=389988170 Well, here's one that appears to be have a different ranking.
05:11:22 <calamari> weird what am I doing wrong, it's not working anyhow
05:11:28 <pikhq> (38 instead of 49.)
05:12:20 <calamari> ahh there it goes hehe
05:12:28 <zzo38> And you can be right about not perfectly correct. It is off by 2
05:12:39 <Gregor> calamari: Swaziland is in the middle ages. Huzzah!
05:13:45 <calamari> so is Arizona
05:14:37 <pikhq> It seems that we've some states with absolutely appaling life expectancies.
05:14:46 <pikhq> I mean, DC. 72? Seriously? WTF.
05:15:10 <pikhq> If DC were a nation it'd just barely be in the top 100.
05:15:23 <catseye> and DC isn't even a state
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05:15:50 <pikhq> catseye: Yes, yes, I know, but it's effectively a very small one. ... With no representation.
05:15:51 <catseye> it's like this non-represented region
05:16:00 <catseye> AND THE CAPITAL IS THERE
05:16:09 <catseye> the sense this is making! oh!
05:16:16 <coppro> pikhq: Puerto Rico has a higher life expectancy than the US average
05:16:24 <pikhq> Yup. Can't vote for President *if you'd be his neighbor*.
05:16:27 <pikhq> coppro: Damn.
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05:19:03 <catseye> Vorpal will love this one: http://catseye.tc/music/med/after_the_fact.med
05:19:07 <catseye> because of the organ.
05:19:20 <catseye> Actually I'm pretty sure he won't like any of them.
05:19:26 <catseye> Because of the trackerness.
05:21:18 <catseye> But this one has been relegated to, not a platformer, but the soundtrack of a cop/spy movie of some sort.
05:21:37 <calamari> yeah it's spy hunter
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05:22:35 <calamari> err no it's not nm lol
05:26:42 <catseye> http://catseye.tc/music/med/autumn_kiss.med
05:27:03 <catseye> http://catseye.tc/music/med/red_quarks.med
05:27:19 <catseye> I think those are the 2 remaining ones
05:27:34 <catseye> actually, there is another one, but it's so not as good as I remember
05:27:39 <GreaseMonkey> med?!?!
05:27:44 <GreaseMonkey> let's see if mikmod can take this
05:27:46 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: MED!
05:27:50 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: xmp, if it can't
05:28:04 <GreaseMonkey> yeah i thought it could
05:28:11 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: I know some modplayers don't do the transpose, which makes at least one of my meds fail superbadways
05:28:13 <GreaseMonkey> med's apparently quite common
05:28:29 <GreaseMonkey> wait what transpose thing?
05:28:42 <GreaseMonkey> autumn kiss sound like it's a million miles
05:28:55 <GreaseMonkey> i think it's doing the speeds wrong
05:29:14 <GreaseMonkey> schismtracker does a better job with the speed
05:29:20 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: one of my meds uses a sample that is not as C - it's at E - so I used "track transpose -4" or something to adjust it -- but some players don't implement that.  result: SHIT
05:29:31 <GreaseMonkey> 1992 what the hell i was born in 1991
05:29:39 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: uh yeah, autumn kiss is supposed to be ballad-ish
05:29:42 <calamari> LOL
05:30:19 <GreaseMonkey> ok what the hell why does schism load it with an !xx command instead of just SETTING THE DAMN VOLUME COLUMN LIKE THE MOD LOADER DOES
05:31:05 <GreaseMonkey> is red_quarks a 4-channel med?
05:31:19 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: yes.  they're all 4-channel
05:31:24 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
05:31:24 <catseye> (mine)
05:31:51 <GreaseMonkey> ahaha amiga electric guitar
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05:35:20 <catseye> am putting together an index page for ease of downloading
05:40:37 <zzo38> The reason for dividing by three is so that I can add a #TRITAVE command into PPMCK.
05:41:02 -!- flippo has changed nick to frivol.
05:41:40 <zzo38> I am already working on making the #CUSTOM-TUNING command work, so that you can use just intonation or any other scale that has up to sixteen notes
05:43:14 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: http://catseye.tc/music/med/
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05:48:06 <catseye> i have only a vague idea of what i mean by "sci-fi funk"
05:48:49 <augur> heyo
05:49:43 <pikhq> Absurdly easy yet tedious homework, fin.
05:50:21 <pikhq> (yes, I get that freaking continuity & limits work in 3 dimensions. I don't need to spend 1.5 hours demonstrating this, kthx)
05:55:07 <catseye> Gregor: you should hear my classical shit sometime.  I've written a string quartet, and a strings and woodwinds septet, and a couple of other fairly weird things.  You'd hate them.  Fortunately for you, they're mostly lost.
05:55:38 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet.ogg I too have written a string quartet.'
05:55:46 <catseye> Yes, I know.
05:56:01 <catseye> Was listening to it earlyer.
05:56:12 <catseye> s/y/i/
05:57:03 <coppro> hmm... curse you, this last question on this math assignment
05:59:46 <pikhq> Gregor: You seem to suffer from the curse of being skilled at multiple things. How do you deal with time allocation for it?
05:59:49 <pikhq> ...
05:59:59 * pikhq looks at Gregor's progress on various things
06:00:05 <pikhq> Ah, right. Like mere mortals.
06:04:57 <catseye> calamari: The "Spy Hunter" theme is "Peter Gunn", iirc
06:05:26 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcflCzZlLcQ
06:06:38 <catseye> and yes, "After the Fact" is... inspired a bit by that :)
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06:09:00 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.pdf
06:09:00 <catseye> oh and for good measure!
06:09:01 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWGeRgFa-hI
06:09:10 <Gregor> For awesome pain, read page five of http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.pdf !
06:10:32 <catseye> Gregor: MOAR FIVE FOUR
06:10:58 <Gregor> ... that is totally words.
06:11:02 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJE92phKzI
06:11:51 <catseye> ≡
06:12:10 <catseye> i'm surprised lilypond can do that
06:12:16 <Gregor> MUAHAHAHAHA
06:13:42 <catseye> firefox + Gregor's oggs = bad news
06:13:49 <Gregor> ?
06:13:54 <Gregor> E_WORKSFORME
06:14:32 <catseye> it used to give me a nice little slider plus play and pause buttons
06:14:41 <catseye> now, it does a visualization thing in the window
06:14:44 <Gregor> Yeah, that's built into Firefox.
06:14:49 <catseye> WHICH I TOTALLY NEED
06:14:56 <Gregor> Also built into Firefox :P
06:15:37 <catseye> i have a pie here
06:17:53 <Gregor> Urgh
06:17:56 <Gregor> You make me want pie.
06:18:04 <catseye> pumpkin pie!
06:18:17 <Gregor> Worse yet, I could easily get pie (probably even pumpkin pie) in spite of the fact that it's 1:20AM.
06:19:08 <catseye> The status bar says "Stopped", yet the visualization proceeds, choppily.
06:19:37 <catseye> The US: 24-hour triviallest-desire-fullfilment.
06:21:03 <catseye> Ah there we go
06:21:11 <catseye> (Finale in 3)
06:22:41 <Gregor> ?
06:23:47 <catseye> Satie -> Gerschwin -> Tschiakovsky (slightly tipsy) -> Satie -> ...
06:23:56 <Gregor> X-D
06:24:40 <Gregor> I take that as a rave review :P
06:24:47 <catseye> -> Chopin (?)
06:24:56 <Gregor> Have you listened to movement 1?
06:24:58 <catseye> and then Satie again
06:25:06 <catseye> oh wait
06:25:26 <catseye> I dunno, this part is someone
06:25:36 <catseye> (pg. 4)
06:25:44 <Gregor> Oh, you're actually following along.
06:25:45 <Gregor> That's scary.
06:26:06 <catseye> Oh, pg 5
06:26:16 <catseye> with all the &equiv''s
06:26:28 <catseye> Rachmaninoff! Maybe?
06:26:32 <Gregor> X-D
06:26:42 <Gregor> It's some ridiculous craziness, it must be Rachmaninoff.
06:27:18 <Gregor> So, to be (un)clear):
06:27:42 <Gregor> Satie -> Gerschwin -> Tschiakovsky (slightly tipsy) -> Satie -> Chopin (?) -> Satie (?) -> Mystery composer -> Rachmanninov
06:28:04 <catseye> Ending somewhat ... err... wow
06:28:09 <catseye> I don't know, but nice, anyway.
06:28:38 <Gregor> Satie -> Gerschwin -> Tschiakovsky (slightly tipsy) -> Satie -> Chopin (?) -> Satie (?) -> Mystery composer -> Rachmanninov -> ...??? -> PROFIT
06:28:55 <catseye> YES
06:31:29 <catseye> Gregor: No surprise, we're about a thousand miles apart, musically.  I cannot handle the piano for at all or ever.  I switched to computer science from music because they wanted me to be able to play the piano.  Then I dropped out of CS too, but that's another story.
06:32:35 <catseye> I had a friend who was a composer, and a pianist.  He liked Beethoven, and Bartok, a lot.
06:32:41 <Gregor> What did you play? I've heard that complaint before btw (I wanted to do music but I didn't know how to play the piano, in spite of the fact that that's not my instrument)
06:33:09 <calamari> catseye: btw, I enjoyed the med's, thanks
06:33:13 <catseye> I played tuba.  And trombone, and euphonium/baritone, but I preferred tuba.  And for composition, I preferred orchestra.
06:33:34 <catseye> calamari: thanks for saying so :)
06:33:36 <Gregor> I would prefer to compose for orchestra if I had one lying around :P
06:33:48 <Gregor> (Which is why I want to write a conductor program)
06:33:49 <catseye> Gregor: yeah, kind of an expensive instrument to compose for.
06:34:20 <catseye> I almost got a concert band to play my stuff once... ach, but no.
06:34:44 <Gregor> How'd you (almost) accomplish that?
06:35:32 <catseye> Lots of hand-copying individual parts and surreptitiously handing them out and (unsuccessfully) appealing to the conductor to give me some time with the band before practice.
06:35:58 <calamari> I've wondered sometimes.. like John Williams will write some music, and then it'll say orchestrated by xyz.  how much of what I'm hearing is actually by xyz and Williams just had a catchy melody line and that's it?
06:36:15 <quintopia> what is the language in which one can write the smallest simplest piece of code that does text-based animation?
06:36:29 <calamari> quintopia: cat?
06:36:48 <quintopia> i mean, requires the least code to do arbitrary like screen buffer updates and stuff
06:36:59 <quintopia> like "put this character here"
06:37:05 <Gregor> ASCIILogo? X-P
06:38:09 <quintopia> I already know the real answer.  it's TI-89 BASIC.  But, I don't have a functioning TI-89.  And the screen would be too small to do what i want anyway.
06:38:23 <quintopia> so, yeah, seriously?
06:38:43 <Gregor> How about OS-level C with a memory-mapped VGA text buffer.
06:38:51 <Gregor> That's just putting stuff in a char * buffer.
06:39:05 <catseye> My vote is Full Moon Fever, but I'm sorely biased.
06:39:12 <catseye> Also, "smallest", no.
06:40:14 <quintopia> small is not as important as simple and quick
06:40:20 <catseye> REPEAT 20 DELCHAR
06:40:31 <catseye> .... or something like that
06:40:36 <quintopia> gregor: how would that work?
06:41:24 <catseye> GO 1 2 CLREOL CENTRE "Enter... the Stupid Guard." 2
06:41:30 <catseye> (apparently)
06:41:42 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't rightly know, but I remember writing  a "kernel" once and handling the screen that way ... VGA is memory-mapped to a standard location, so then it's just  myscreen[y*160+x*2] = '@'
06:42:05 <quintopia> hmm
06:42:19 <quintopia> that'd be nice, but i don't know the first thing about doing that
06:42:35 <quintopia> also, what did you use to write this score?
06:42:39 <zzo38> I suppose, invent one language for text animation small simple codes
06:42:54 <Gregor> quintopia: Rosegarden to lilypond, then fixes over that lilypond.
06:43:10 <catseye> the second byte of each pair the fg/bg colour attributes, iirc (incl. blink, where that's supported)
06:43:13 <quintopia> complicated
06:43:28 <Gregor> catseye: Yup.
06:44:06 <Gregor> I also wrote a program for doing ASCII-art animations once, but it could only handle input in the form of full-screen frames and timing information.
06:45:33 <catseye> Gregor: So, um.  Since I don't think I've heard you say.  What composers do you like?
06:46:04 <quintopia> FMF doesn't look so bad, but apparently they only way to use it is in the illgol compiler binary for windows?
06:46:20 <Gregor> catseye: I have an unhealthy relationship with Russian romanticism. Borodin is my favorite composer, with Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky etc as close seconds.
06:46:29 <catseye> quintopia: the only surviving way, yes.  unless i can can salvage my amiga disks someday.
06:46:43 <catseye> Gregor: you don't say.  interesting.
06:46:53 <Gregor> catseye: As a pianist I'm required to like Chopin and Liszt. And lesse ...
06:47:02 <Gregor> Saint-Saens, Sibelius ...
06:47:15 <lament> what did borodin even write
06:47:16 <Gregor> Well, Beethoven, but that's too easy :P
06:47:34 <Gregor> lament: Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2 is the single greatest piece of music ever written.
06:47:48 <calamari> mp3?
06:47:52 <Gregor> lament: The works from Prince Igor are quite good as well.
06:47:56 <calamari> oh best ever
06:48:01 <calamari> guess that needs to be flac
06:48:06 <Gregor> :P'
06:49:22 <Gregor> lament: Ohhh, and I almost forgot about On the Steppes of Central Asia
06:50:29 <catseye> Gregor: as a non-pianist I am under no obligation to like Chopin, but I do.  But my #1 favourite is Prokofiev.
06:50:50 <Gregor> Argh, I can't believe I forgot to mention Prokofiev *smacks self*
06:51:25 <quintopia> <3 prokofiev
06:51:47 <quintopia> opinions on shostakovich?
06:51:55 <Gregor> Plenty :P
06:52:35 <catseye> I was painting a fence on day, and had a radio on, tuned into CBC's "Disc Drive", and Juergen Goeth decided to play the march from "Love for Three Oranges" and I was hooked.
06:53:27 <lament> why are composers all russian
06:54:00 <lament> quintopia: shostakovich wrote the *real* greatest piece of music ever
06:54:03 <catseye> wait, did borodin do
06:54:20 <catseye> YES
06:54:28 <catseye> Prince Igor
06:54:48 <calamari> this 80's midi card is holding up pretty well against your fancy recording
06:54:53 <Gregor> lament: During the Romanticism era, Mussorgsky mixed Romanticism with Russian folk music and produced brilliance. He then convinced five other people to produce such brilliance, and started a trend of Russian music.
06:55:24 <Gregor> lament: Before Romanticism, there was no good Russian music :P
06:55:34 <Gregor> (^^^ totally not a generalization)
06:56:41 <coppro> grammar question: should adverbs be hyphenated (e.g. the nearly clean person vs. the nearly-clean person)
06:56:51 <catseye> The other time that Disc Drive changed my (musical) life was when J.G. decided to play "Pertpetuum Mobile" by the Penguin Cafe Orchestra.
06:57:01 <catseye> coppro: Yes, they should.
06:57:14 <Gregor> coppro: *concurs with catseye*
06:57:21 <coppro> so everyone else just sucks at English?
06:57:45 <Gregor> coppro: More precisely, by the way, adjective phrases should be hyphenated.
06:57:47 <calamari> everyone sucks at English.. how about that? :)
06:58:03 * coppro files unhyphenated adjective phrases with the International Pet Peeve Bureau
06:58:39 <Gregor> However, I've said it once and I'll say it again: The correct way to do it is however everybody does it.
06:58:54 <Gregor> If nobody hyphenates their adjective phrases, then it is no longer standard to hyphenate adjective phrases.
06:59:18 <catseye> The person was nearly clean.  The nearly0clean person was far away.
06:59:22 <catseye> s/0/-/
06:59:25 * catseye can't type
07:01:41 <coppro> Gregor: tru
07:01:43 <coppro> *true
07:03:48 <catseye> Also Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Vivaldi, Satie.  Lots of others did good stuff too, but those guys stand out.
07:03:54 <catseye> imo.
07:05:27 <catseye> Beethoven is so weird.  It's almost like he wasn't a real person.  Like Shakespeare, you know? :)
07:06:20 <coppro> yes, Wikipedia agrees with me!
07:06:53 <coppro> I now have a pet peeve of people not hyphenating compound adjectives when using them attributively.
07:07:39 <coppro> *attributively before the noun
07:16:23 * quintopia high-fives the proselytizing descriptivist
07:18:13 <lament> any sort of description must be descriptive
07:19:24 <catseye> say you like what way is all to put stress more onz interpeting mine only
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07:21:39 <catseye> more wrong you "wrong" against edge the push is always flex more NO as while it stands
07:22:50 <quintopia> i can almost parse that
07:23:35 <quintopia> do lesions to wernicke's area result in inability to type comprehensibly too?
07:28:24 <quintopia> translationparty is down :/
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07:58:04 <quintopia> catseye: write me an alpaca line that does "if A has a B west of it then with 9/10 probability it becomes C and with 1/10 probability it becomes D"
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09:54:30 <antivigilante> will aliens scorch the earth before the X1000 arrives?
09:55:05 <oerjan> for now they seem to be satisfying with removing from my brain all knowledge of what X1000 is.
09:55:16 <oerjan> *satisfied
09:55:49 <oerjan> WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENGIN TO MY GRAMMAR AND SPELLING LATELY?
09:55:59 <oerjan> (yeah i left that one in on purpose)
09:56:02 <antivigilante> amiga X1000 a-eon Xorro bus XMOS chip Xena
09:56:16 <oerjan> aha.
09:56:37 <oerjan> actually the X would tend to indicate it is made _by_ aliens.
09:56:45 <antivigilante> your brain is mutiny against you using the english language
09:57:04 <antivigilante> english is turdacular
09:57:22 <oerjan> hvis du sier det så
09:57:39 <oerjan> counterevidence: it was damn hard to get that last norwegian word right
09:57:50 <antivigilante> o, ow, owe, ough - yuck
09:57:56 <cheater> hi
09:58:06 <antivigilante> an oh
09:58:10 <antivigilante> er and
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10:54:43 <oerjan> holy shit http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/didgrow.html
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10:58:48 <Ilari> Heh... I'm thinking what's the worst stuff in commonly sold as food that comes from animal products... And the same for plant products... Let's just say the animal stuffs list is much shorter and much more mild...
10:58:54 <Ilari> *milder
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11:04:14 <fizzie> There was one of those "makes your eyesight all screwy" optical illusions shown in the "wild demo" (anything realtime-graphicsy goes) category at Assembly this year; the name was "casual vortex" and the listed 'platform' was "visual cortex".
11:05:21 <tombom> what language was it written in
11:05:55 <fizzie> I don't think that was mentioned anywhere.
11:06:11 <fizzie> This was re "<oerjan> holy shit http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/didgrow.html" which you probably didn't see.
11:07:20 <Ilari> I can offhand recall only one bad animal-based food product. Whereas similar list for plants has at least 8, probably all worse than the one entry for animal products...
11:08:04 <fizzie> It seems to have been written in vvvv, in fact.
11:08:26 <tombom> aww man
11:08:34 <tombom> and here i was hoping for another silly answer
11:08:51 <tombom> vvvv looks really interesting actually
11:09:51 <oerjan> ye olde botulinum sausage
11:11:34 <Ilari> That's bacterium toxin... And should not be present in commonly sold food.
11:12:22 <Ilari> And BTW, that 8 entry list does not include alcohol...
11:13:31 <oerjan> also, surströmming
11:14:31 <oerjan> and hákarl
11:15:06 <Ilari> I actually meant "worst" as "most unhealthy", not "most disgusting looking".
11:15:23 <oerjan> well in that case we shouldn't forget fugu
11:16:05 <oerjan> but i guess it may be hard to find a food product that is unhealthy when _properly_ prepared
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12:46:27 <cheater> the problem is, quite often proper preparation includes the trash can
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14:08:45 <elliott> Schemes of dierse orgin!
14:11:04 <ais523> is that a misspelling of "divers"?
14:11:21 <elliott> "Diverse", actually.
14:11:25 <elliott> But, intentional.
14:11:39 <elliott> "Schemes of Divers Origin" would be a good name for an album or something, though.
14:11:44 <pikhq> Diërse orgin?
14:11:55 <ais523> "Divers" is an old-fashioned spelling of "Diverse"
14:12:01 <ais523> which you still come across very occasionally
14:12:08 <ais523> that's what I was referencing
14:12:40 <elliott> right
14:12:52 <elliott> i like the interpretation as people-who-dive even better, though :)
14:13:04 <elliott> "diuers" would be as archaically valid, right?
14:13:12 <elliott> schemes of diuers origin
14:13:15 <ais523> yes, I think so
14:14:04 <elliott> I wonder why Ubuntu doesn't do kexec-reboots for kernel upgrades.
14:15:05 <pikhq> elliott: Perfectly valid. "v" goes at the beginning of words. :)
14:15:17 <elliott> pikhq: how uersatile
14:15:17 <ais523> hmm, if you have to shut down almost all the way, why not hard reboot?
14:15:25 <ais523> the difference is what, a few seconds?
14:15:32 <elliott> ais523: more than that
14:15:35 <elliott> you have the BIOS
14:15:36 <elliott> which takes a few seconds
14:15:38 <elliott> and the bootloader
14:15:48 <elliott> which, if it displays a menu, which is very likely if Windows is installed,
14:15:52 <elliott> could take 5-10 seconds
14:16:03 <elliott> (yes, you can skip it, but there's also no reason at all not to just use kexec)
14:16:03 <ais523> you probably /want/ to go via the bootloader if you just upgraded the kernel
14:16:06 <elliott> why?
14:16:10 <elliott> this is what kexec is designed for
14:16:22 <ais523> because bootloader/kernel compat issues are one of the things you want to be able to catch
14:16:41 <elliott> err, i have never seen such an issue (and besides, it's not like you won't find out next boot)
14:16:49 <ais523> (also, so if the new kernel doesn't work, the bootloader knows it doesn't)
14:16:53 <elliott> linux is generally pretty good at not breaking multiboot...
14:16:59 <elliott> ais523: bootloaders don't store that
14:17:01 <ais523> well, yes
14:17:05 <ais523> the Windows bootloader does
14:17:08 <elliott> not even last-good-boot works like that
14:17:12 <elliott> ais523: the Windows bootloader can't boot linux
14:17:23 <ais523> yep, but I mean it would be a plausible feature to add
14:17:44 <elliott> last-good-boot is better
14:17:54 <elliott> it stores the last kernel that booted, rather than ... what? why would you even store that it doesn't boot?
14:18:15 <ais523> so that you can automatically go to last-good rather than most-recent if most-recent doesn't work
14:18:52 <ais523> which saves time in the morning if you're in the habit of rebooting or shutting down overnight (for stability reasons with Windows, or energy saving reasons with any OS)
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14:25:57 * cpressey escapes from the planet of the robot monsters
14:26:31 <ais523> what were you doing there?
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14:28:30 <cpressey> ais523: it was the nineties, and there was time for it, along with klax
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14:29:20 <quintopia> cpressey!
14:29:35 <cpressey> quintopia!
14:29:43 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover!
14:29:46 <cpressey> wait no
14:29:52 <quintopia> is it the nineties, where there's still time to witness hair on top of steve ballmer's head?
14:30:26 <quintopia> 02:57 < quintopia> catseye: write me an alpaca line that does "if A has a B west of it then with 9/10 probability it becomes C and with 1/10 probability it becomes D"
14:31:08 <cpressey> quintopia: i refer you to the discussion about dividing by 3 on a NES
14:31:32 * ais523 reads the presentation linked from reddit about how to recover from "chmod -x chmod"
14:31:41 <ais523> there's a whole bunch of solutions from there, some of which are ridiculous
14:31:52 <cheater> cpressey: what about dividing by 3 on a nes?
14:32:09 <cheater> is it ... difficult?
14:32:11 <ais523> (someone suggested forcing the directory entry for /bin into cache, then running sed on the computer's memory)
14:32:25 <ais523> cheater: not really, but doing it efficiently is nontrivial
14:33:09 <cpressey> cheater: i believe the suggested trick was to multiply by 85 then divide by 256 to get a factor of 0.334
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14:33:48 <ais523> cpressey: that trick doesn't work with every number IIRC; I'm not sure if it works for 3, and in which range
14:34:23 <cheater> 58/256= 0.3320..
14:34:32 <cpressey> and alpaca only does power-of-2 probabilities(?) so you'd have to do something similar to approximate 10%
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14:36:27 <cpressey> ais523: indeed, it does not work for 3.
14:36:30 <cheater> doesn't 0.9 have a nice expansion in binary?
14:36:50 <ais523> cheater: not an exact finite expansion, no
14:37:07 <ais523> there's an antifactor of 5 in there
14:37:20 <elliott> ais523: link me the presentation?
14:37:23 <cheater> antifactor of 5?
14:37:27 <quintopia> cpressey: i thought i remembered as much, but i couldn't find a english spec of alpaca
14:37:45 <quintopia> cpressey: same question but with 1/8 and 7/8
14:37:47 <ais523> http://www.slideshare.net/cog/chmod-x-chmod
14:37:50 <cpressey> quintopia: did you find one in some other language?
14:37:52 <ais523> annoyingly, in Flash for no reason at all
14:37:57 <ais523> apart from making it hard to copy
14:38:14 <quintopia> cpressey: i couldn't find one in any spoken language actually
14:38:31 <ais523> (my reaction was "use another program that does the same thing", I'd probably have come up with busybox chmod with a bit of thought)
14:38:40 <elliott> ais523: see "Download"
14:38:47 <elliott> i'd just use python
14:38:48 <ais523> elliott: it's a link to a login page
14:38:48 <elliott> to chmod :P
14:38:57 <elliott> ais523: SHEESH JUST USE YOUR FACEBOOK ACCOUNT
14:39:00 * elliott trollin'
14:39:03 <ais523> that solution was already there
14:39:11 <ais523> in several languages
14:39:15 <elliott> heh
14:39:17 <cpressey> ais523: my reaction was to rebuild chmod from source -- but that's bsd thinking i suppose
14:39:29 <ais523> although Perl or Python are best for that, because they're most likely to be installed
14:39:43 <ais523> cpressey: if you had the source handy, that would work fine
14:39:44 <elliott> ais523: bugmenot.com
14:39:47 <elliott> enter "slideshare"
14:39:52 <elliott> see usernames and passwords
14:39:54 <elliott> *slideshare.net
14:39:57 <ais523> I'm at work, I don't want to have to explain that
14:40:05 <ais523> (I am aware of bugmenot.com, though)
14:40:07 <elliott> err? bugmenot is perfectly reputable
14:40:14 <cpressey> ais523: on freebsd, you almost always do (culturally speaking anyway)
14:40:23 <ais523> yep, but going to sites with usernames/passwords you don't own isn't
14:40:33 <ais523> and using bugmenot is quite a giveaway that you're planning that
14:41:13 <ais523> (it's actually the IT staff at the department I was in a couple of years ago that introduced me to bugmenot...)
14:41:20 <elliott> ais523: heh, I like the idea of using the c compiler to get an executable
14:41:24 <elliott> and then catting /bin/chmod to it
14:41:56 <elliott> ais523: but what if you didn't have cc? I'd replace some irrelevant binary with chmod instead
14:42:07 <ais523> you can just copy an existing executable, and cat /bin/chmod to that
14:42:17 <elliott> what if you don't have cp?!?!?!?!
14:42:22 <ais523> (more interesting question: how do you recover from a chmod -R -x /)
14:42:31 <elliott> "$ cp cat new_chmod
14:42:31 <elliott> $ cat chmod > new_chmod"
14:42:31 <elliott> darn
14:42:37 <elliott> ais523: badly
14:42:54 <elliott> using tar to do it, genius
14:42:57 <ais523> in the reddit comments, someone said they'd done that by copying the permissions over from another box using rsync or something
14:43:08 <cpressey> ais523: hello mr. livecd
14:43:12 <ais523> one method not mentioned there: copy chmod to a FAT system, then back again
14:43:17 <elliott> cpressey: wut
14:43:29 <ais523> all files are executable when, say, a USB stick is mounted with default options
14:43:34 <elliott> [[alias chmod='/lib/ld-2.11.1.so ./chmod']]
14:43:36 <elliott> I APPROVE OF THIS
14:43:42 <cpressey> elliott: recover from chmod -R -x by booting off something else and copying stuff over
14:43:52 <ais523> (I use the same method to clear the "downloaded from the Internet" flag in Windows)
14:44:08 <elliott> actually, isn't /lib/ld* a bit of a security hole?
14:44:11 <elliott> it can bypass +x permissions
14:44:14 <elliott> -x that is
14:44:33 <ais523> you can bypass them anyway by copying the executable so you own the copy, then chmodding the copy
14:44:50 <ais523> (I assume it doesn't work if it has both -x and -r permissions)
14:45:23 <cpressey> why is chmod not a sh builtin
14:45:24 <elliott> true
14:45:26 <ais523> -x is only really for a) protecting suid files against being run by the wrong people; b) preventing programs being run by mistake
14:45:31 <cpressey> this is a good argument for it
14:45:32 <elliott> cpressey: please tell me that's sarcasm
14:45:40 <cpressey> elliott: this is a good argument for it
14:45:46 <ais523> I think syscall should be a sh builtin
14:45:48 <elliott> no, shell builtins in general are stupid
14:45:53 <ais523> no need to build in all the actual syscalls one by one!
14:46:01 <elliott> the most i'll accept beyond what actually has to be done in sh is echo
14:46:04 <elliott> since that's so common
14:46:09 <fizzie> For the original program, my instinct would've been perl -e 'chmod 0755, "chmod";'
14:46:13 <ais523> then, you can impliment the other things you need as a library
14:46:14 <fizzie> s/program/problem/
14:46:15 <ais523> glibsh, or whatever
14:46:16 <cpressey> elliott: not even test?
14:46:20 <elliott> fizzie: that's one of their exact solutions, verbatim
14:46:24 <elliott> cpressey: well, ok, test too
14:46:26 <elliott> but nothing more
14:46:35 <fizzie> Oh. Well, "Flash Player 9 (or above) is needed to view presentations."
14:46:40 <elliott> fizzie: login
14:46:43 <elliott> lick download
14:46:43 <cheater> i think the first answer would be
14:46:45 <elliott> *click
14:46:50 <cheater> "what data center has no access to the internet?"
14:46:53 <elliott> fizzie: applejacks for user and pass
14:47:42 <elliott> cpressey: particularly abhorrent is kill being a builtin
14:48:04 <ais523> kill is a /builtin/?
14:48:07 <cpressey> elliott: i'm not a fan of builtins btw, it was just this case that occurred to me.
14:48:22 <cpressey> i don't see why kill should ever be
14:48:24 <ais523> oh, could "kill %1", etc., be easily implemented via an external executable?
14:48:28 <ais523> that might be the reason
14:48:35 <cpressey> except maybe some crazy arhument about "the shell is a job control thing"
14:48:37 <elliott> ais523: well, no, but %x should just expand to a string
14:48:40 <elliott> like ~ does
14:48:48 <quintopia> chmod -rx chmod and the NIC has been stolen.  fix it.
14:49:18 <ais523> one of the solutions on the slide there could work (reinstall coreutils from the package manager cache)
14:49:30 <quintopia> i guess perl would still work
14:49:31 <ais523> failing that, reimplementing chmod isn't massively difficult
14:49:35 <ais523> and yes
14:49:52 <ais523> well, "rm -f /bin/chmod" is the next step up, I suppose
14:50:11 <cpressey> sudo apt-get install chmod
14:50:26 <quintopia> its coreutils
14:50:41 <cpressey> people never understand my humor
14:51:09 <quintopia> well i could have responded "Package not found: chmod"
14:51:29 <quintopia> speaking of humor, you never answered my second question
14:51:47 <elliott> someone did "chmod -x chmod" and deleted all other files on the system WHAT NOW
14:52:05 <ais523> what filesystem?
14:52:18 <elliott> ais523: Lowest Common Denominatorfs
14:52:22 <elliott> alternatively
14:52:29 <ais523> if it's FAT, I'd go and get a floppy disk running DOS and try to reconstruct the first letter of every file on the filesystem from memory
14:52:36 <elliott> xD
14:52:38 <cpressey> oh yeah, NOW you are wishing you had some frickin builtins
14:52:41 <elliott> no floppy disks
14:52:44 <elliott> you are locked in a cage
14:52:50 <elliott> the monitor is on the wall
14:52:53 <elliott> the keyboard buttons are on thee things in haskell
17:58:25 <cpressey> foldr1 should totally be called 'join' or something
17:58:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, why join? join sounds like it would be similar to zip to me
17:58:50 <cpressey> i dunno.  join is not the best name
17:59:18 <Vorpal> hm
17:59:31 <cpressey> no, i'm thinking of that other function
17:59:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, foldrlast?
17:59:37 <Vorpal> a bit long
17:59:40 <cpressey> the one you can do sum with by passing it '+'
17:59:45 <cpressey> (+) i should say
17:59:55 <elliott> cpressey: SO COMMODORE 64
18:00:02 <cpressey> elliott: SO YEAH TOTALLY
18:00:18 <elliott> foldl/foldl'/foldl1/foldr all sum when passed (+)
18:00:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm? sum (+) ?
18:00:24 <Vorpal> that sounds a bit weird
18:00:24 <elliott> although foldl' (+) 0 is probably the one you want
18:00:36 <elliott> cpressey: IT'S TOTALLY THE BEST COMPUTER OF ITS TIME
18:00:53 <elliott> cpressey: OR WHAT ABOUT: ATARI ST
18:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever Cray was doing at that point
18:01:14 <Vorpal> was best
18:01:17 <Vorpal> very likely
18:01:25 <elliott> cpressey: that Vorpal, ain't he an idiot?
18:01:33 <Vorpal> or hm, probably lisp machines
18:01:51 <cpressey> Vorpal: best for FLAVOUR
18:01:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, ah well, indeed
18:05:40 <cpressey> !haskell :t foldl'
18:06:13 <cpressey> damn you lambdabot for being better than egobot at this and for leaving us
18:06:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think it is ghc, not ghci
18:06:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: I've SEEN it do types before, i swear
18:06:47 <Vorpal> hm okay
18:07:06 <cpressey> !help
18:07:06 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:07:14 <cpressey> !haskell [1,2,3]
18:07:22 <EgoBot> [1,2,3]
18:07:34 <cpressey> !haskell :t 1
18:07:37 <EgoBot> 1 :: (Num t) => t
18:07:40 <cpressey> see???
18:07:47 <cpressey> !haskell :t foldl
18:07:55 <EgoBot> foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
18:07:59 <cpressey> ah
18:08:04 <cpressey> it must not like the ' somehow
18:08:17 <Vorpal> bbl
18:09:00 <cpressey> !haskell foldl (+) 0 [5,6,7]
18:09:08 <EgoBot> 18
18:09:11 <cpressey> huh
18:09:17 <cpressey> i wonder what i was thinking, then
18:09:25 <oerjan> cpressey: :t foldl' didn't work because foldl' is not in the Prelude
18:09:37 <oerjan> !haskell :t Data.List.foldl'
18:09:45 <EgoBot> Data.List.foldl' :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
18:11:02 <oerjan> Vorpal: !haskell is _both_ ghci and ghc.  it tries the second if the first one errors out.
18:11:31 <Vorpal> huh
18:11:49 <Vorpal> why didn't it give an error if it didn't work?
18:12:14 <oerjan> errors are sent via DCC, usually.
18:12:32 <oerjan> why it doesn't pass even one line i don't know
18:12:41 <oerjan> !haskell :t foldl'
18:12:55 <oerjan> hm no DCC either
18:13:06 <oerjan> i vaguely recall :t does that, no idea why
18:13:25 <Vorpal> "Prelude> :t foldl'
18:13:26 <Vorpal> <interactive>:1:0: Not in scope: `foldl''
18:13:26 <Vorpal> "
18:13:28 <Vorpal> is what I get
18:13:57 <oerjan> yes.  however that's from ghci and if it errors out it passes to ghc.
18:14:17 <oerjan> you never get ghci errors with !haskell
18:16:22 <oerjan> !haskell {- -} :t foldl'
18:16:28 <elliott> wait, no, me menu != messaging menu
18:16:42 <elliott> !sh ghci -e ":t foldl'"
18:16:54 <elliott> works, sort of
18:16:59 <elliott> !sh ghci -e ":t foldl'" 2>&1 | tr -d '\n'
18:17:04 <EgoBot> <interactive>:1:0: Not in scope: `foldl''
18:17:57 <oerjan> incidentally !haskell {- -} :t foldl' gave a parse error in DCC
18:18:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, why?
18:19:20 <oerjan> um because it's neither correct ghci (the : must start the line) nor ghc (: cannot start a declaration)
18:19:57 <Vorpal> ah
18:20:03 <oerjan> still no idea why :t foldl' alone gives no error message
18:20:53 <oerjan> unless... maybe ghci somehow doesn't give an error back to the shell for it
18:20:54 <cpressey> yes, it's the fold*1 functions that should be called 'join'.  duh
18:21:12 <oerjan> cpressey: join is already taken for a monadic function, though
18:21:19 <cpressey> snap
18:22:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is wrong with foldrfromlist or such?
18:22:28 <Vorpal> not every name has to be short
18:22:53 <cpressey> oerjan: is there a mapUntil?
18:22:54 <oerjan> tell that to the haskell committee
18:23:10 <cpressey> wait why am i asking you when there is an internet here
18:23:11 <oerjan> cpressey: um what would that do?
18:23:22 <oerjan> not by that name anyway
18:23:22 <cpressey> oerjan: well, i wrote one for some reason
18:23:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, combine takeWhile and map maybe?
18:23:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm asking cpressey
18:23:51 <elliott> oerjan: it puts a newline before
18:23:53 <elliott> so, for instance
18:23:54 <elliott> my !sh
18:23:56 <elliott> gives an error in dcc
18:23:58 <cpressey> why oh why does pastie.org not just list all the possible highlightings in its dropdown
18:23:59 <elliott> but not on stdout
18:24:13 <elliott> cpressey: err, doesn't it?
18:24:27 <elliott> oh the more...
18:24:30 <cpressey> elliott: http://pastie.org/1216028   please ignore the fact that 'mapRest' is useless
18:24:37 <cpressey> elliott: and haskell is a more
18:24:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was just suggesting the obvious interpretation!
18:24:55 <cpressey> mapRest is what you laugh at
18:24:59 <elliott> cpressey: i don't see how map applies there
18:25:02 <elliott> brb reboot
18:25:04 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review).
18:25:29 <cpressey> also laugh at the accumulator style in haskell
18:25:40 <cpressey> (i started in erlang!)
18:25:53 <cpressey> errr
18:26:00 <cpressey> i meant to direct that pastie at oerjan
18:26:07 <cpressey> oerjan: http://pastie.org/1216028   please ignore the fact that 'mapRest' is useless
18:26:25 * Vorpal accumulates cpressey
18:28:17 <cpressey> wait what the hell did i write here??
18:28:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm?
18:28:50 * Vorpal loooks at the url
18:29:10 <cpressey> it looks like it transforms only one element of a list, if that
18:29:19 <cpressey> the first one that succeeds
18:29:26 <Vorpal> yes, didn't you mean that?
18:29:27 <oerjan> cpressey: yeah that accumulator doesn't work well with laziness
18:29:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: i don't *think* i did... but then, my code seemed to work.  this was written to make another function simpler
18:29:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, the problem is, cpressey is too lazy to fix it
18:29:58 <cpressey> haskell needs doctests
18:30:22 <cpressey> anyway, lunxh
18:30:29 <Vorpal> (no offence meant, it was just a bad joke I had to make)
18:30:32 <Vorpal> (to keep up my image)
18:30:49 <cpressey> that is how i spell 'lunch'.  i defend my idiolexicality.
18:30:52 <oerjan> cpressey: what's doctests?
18:31:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, I would guess it means verifying that the code and documentation matches each other. That would be nice but very very unrealistic too
18:31:46 <Vorpal> at least for the general case
18:32:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: you know i'm tempted to make the same request of you that elliott did
18:32:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm?
18:33:18 <oerjan> STOP GUESSING ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WHEN YOU WEREN'T THE ONE ASKED
18:34:00 <Vorpal> ohh, you mean we should play jeopardy instead?
18:34:06 * Vorpal runs
18:37:48 -!- elliott has joined.
18:37:54 <elliott> aww, no ais
18:37:58 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:46:28 <cpressey> oerjan: a doctest (from python) is a repl transcript embedded in a comment, basically
18:47:02 -!- elliott has joined.
18:47:10 <elliott> running kexec before shutting the system down is fun
18:47:10 <cpressey> "if i were to try to use this function from the interactive prompt, how would it behave?  demonstrate."
18:47:22 <elliott> cpressey: have you got logs since i last quit?
18:47:27 <elliott> and, well, since the quit before that too
18:47:35 <cpressey> oh i suppose i do
18:47:42 <elliott> could i have them? :)
18:47:54 <cpressey> elliott: STOP MAKING POWERSHELL SCROLL and yes
18:48:42 <cpressey> http://pastie.org/private/sjf9pwcjh9mukwdwmpgeg
18:48:48 <oerjan> cpressey: well nothing preventing you from writing such comments, then
18:49:17 <cpressey> oerjan: yes, but the magic is in having them executed and little dots go by and the message ALL TESTS PASSED!
18:49:32 <elliott> 12:32 < oerjan> STOP GUESSING ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WHEN YOU WEREN'T THE ONE ASKED
18:49:34 <elliott> this forever
18:49:49 <elliott> i do it occasionally though
18:49:50 <elliott> but in my defence
18:49:53 <elliott> i'm always right
18:50:07 <oerjan> elliott: emphasis on GUESSING
18:50:11 <cpressey> oerjan: anyway, i write in accumulator style by habit, and i know it's bad in haskell
18:50:13 <elliott> :P
18:50:58 <elliott> I'm gonna install ksplice
18:51:02 <elliott> because I'm ker-RAZY
18:51:07 <Vorpal> <cpressey> elliott: STOP MAKING POWERSHELL SCROLL and yes <-- eh?
18:51:15 <Vorpal> you mean it scrolls on activity?
18:51:21 <Vorpal> can't you turn that off?
18:51:28 <Vorpal> to have it just scroll on input or such
18:51:32 <elliott> most elaborate setup for a windows sucks joke ever
18:51:32 <cpressey> Vorpal: when it scrolls i can't select for a copy to clipb oard
18:51:35 <oerjan> cpressey: haskell has several test suites as well as haddock for documentation.  not that i've used them.
18:51:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah
18:52:03 <elliott> cpressey: python doctests are basically just assertions of == or prints, right?
18:52:05 <cpressey> oerjan: it has maybe been done
18:52:12 <elliott> cpressey: they have a little bit of fanciness to handle randomness/dates I think but still
18:52:31 <cpressey> elliott: assertion that "a repl session looks like this"
18:52:36 <elliott> cpressey: well, right
18:52:41 <elliott> cpressey: but it's basically a series of
18:52:43 <cpressey> which is usually overspecified
18:52:45 <elliott> cpressey: this code evaluates to this result
18:52:46 <elliott> or
18:52:48 <elliott> this code prints this string
18:52:49 <cpressey> but basically yes
18:52:50 <elliott> or both
18:52:59 <elliott> the latter will basically never be tested in haskell ;)
18:53:02 <elliott> so the former is all that matters
18:53:05 <cpressey> prints, relying on repl semantics to print results
18:53:08 <elliott> so, easy enough project to do really
18:53:22 <cpressey> har
18:53:38 <elliott> things ksplice needs to be integrated with: Update Manager
18:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, there are legal issues with that iirc
18:54:12 <Vorpal> well, for ubuntu to do it
18:54:17 <elliott> for ksplice to do it
18:54:24 <elliott> just offer a modified update manager package or whatever
18:54:26 <elliott> that replaces the usual one
18:54:30 <elliott> and keep it sync'd
18:54:32 <Vorpal> that would work
18:54:51 <elliott> hmm they call upstart a 30-day trial, but only the non-ubuntu/fedora ones say "Try it now"
18:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, tried 10.10 yet? Any good?
18:55:00 <elliott> the ubuntu and fedora ones say "Get it free!" and have a free download link
18:55:02 <elliott> so i guess there's no trial period
18:55:05 <oerjan> cpressey: my _vague_ understanding is quickcheck and smallcheck are useful in haskell for testing == kind of things, and hunit for actual IO related stuff
18:55:20 <elliott> Vorpal: i have no problem at all with 10.10. you'll probably have 20, as it continues to be more and more Ubuntuesque.
18:55:25 <elliott> well okay
18:55:27 <elliott> i have a few problems
18:55:28 <Vorpal> bbl
18:55:28 <elliott> but not many
18:55:32 <oerjan> this may be severely out of date
18:55:34 <elliott> Vorpal: don't ask me a question before going bbl
18:55:38 <elliott> that's incredibly rude...
18:55:49 -!- washingmachine has left (?).
18:56:56 <elliott> "Ksplice Uptrack for Ubuntu Desktop 10.04 Lucid will be freely supported for as long as Ubuntu Lucid is the newest version of Ubuntu. When the next version of Ubuntu Desktop (10.10 Meerkat) is released, we anticipate freely supporting that next version for as long as it is the newest version of Ubuntu. We anticipate using a similar model for Fedora."
18:56:57 <elliott> okay
18:57:05 <oerjan> the machines are rising
18:57:24 <elliott> Can I configure Ksplice Uptrack to install updates automatically?
18:57:24 <elliott> Yes, you can enable the ill provide a smooth upgrade for sidux systems.   In many ways nothing has changed but our name."

2010-10-13:

00:47:18 <elliott> what are the ways that have changed
00:47:25 <elliott> oho
00:47:29 <elliott> a disagreement between devs and the company
00:47:52 <elliott> drama drama!
00:48:02 <elliott> involving companies in free OSes is always a bad idea i think.
00:48:07 <catseye> fuckin' suits
00:48:14 <catseye> fuckin' crampin' our style
00:48:23 <elliott> catseye: oh shaddup it's true
00:48:37 <catseye> also: fuckin' rainbows!
00:48:37 <elliott> unless you were being serious
00:49:00 <catseye> elliott: neither serious nor in jest really
00:49:18 <catseye> it is true
00:49:18 <elliott> Fuckin' rainbows, how do they work?
00:49:20 <Gregor> Though he is having sex with rainbows.
00:49:25 <elliott> Wait... no.
00:50:02 <elliott> "We got a theory" -- Insane Clown Posse, at the beginning
00:50:12 <elliott> "I HATE SCIENTISTS" -- Insane Clown Posse, near the end, paraphrased
00:50:14 <elliott> HMMM
00:52:04 <catseye> it IS true, but if you want to get *paid* for doing foss?  guess what
00:52:13 <catseye> you must interface with the economy
00:52:19 <catseye> and the economy is FUCKED
00:52:44 <elliott> catseye: fuck getting paid :D
00:52:54 <catseye> elliott: exactly
00:55:04 <catseye> anyway i liked that quote about the ibex
00:55:10 <elliott> Theory aigj: ao.
00:55:12 <elliott> catseye: Yes.
00:57:14 <catseye>  Phantom_Hoover | GreaseMonkey, OK, so not being able to accurately store £0.10 is a tolerable error?
00:57:33 <catseye> if you are a large corporation with a valuation in the millions -- yes, totally.
00:57:45 <catseye> who gives a fuck about a few pence
00:57:56 <catseye> or whatever you call those things after decimalisation
00:58:02 <catseye> i think they're still pence...
00:58:34 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: [Explaining the plan] Alright so when the sub routine compounds the interest is uses all these extra decimal places that just get rounded off. So we simplified the whole thing, we rounded them all down, drop the remainder into an account we opened.
00:58:34 <elliott> Joanna: [Confused] So you're stealing?
00:58:34 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Ah no, you don't understand. It's very complicated. It's uh it's aggregate, so I'm talking about fractions of a penny here. And over time they add up to a lot.
00:58:48 <elliott> catseye: Yes, they are still pence.
00:58:51 <elliott> Joanna: Oh okay. So you're gonna be making a lot of money, right?
00:58:52 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Yeah.
00:58:52 <elliott> Joanna: Right. It's not yours?
00:58:52 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Well it becomes ours.
00:58:52 <elliott> Joanna: How is that not stealing?
00:58:53 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: [pauses] I don't think I'm explaining this very well.
00:58:54 <elliott> Joanna: Okay.
00:58:56 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Um... the 7-11. You take a penny from the tray, right?
00:58:58 <elliott> Joanna: From the cripple children?
00:59:00 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: No that's the jar. I'm talking about the tray. You know the pennies that are for everybody?
00:59:04 <elliott> Joanna: Oh for everybody. Okay.
00:59:06 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Well those are whole pennies, right? I'm just talking about fractions of a penny here. But we do it from a much bigger tray and we do it a couple a million times.
00:59:09 <elliott> s/ +$//
01:00:27 <elliott> I wonder if catseye has actually seen Office Space.
01:01:52 <elliott> CLEARLY NOT
01:02:13 <catseye> elliott: I have but it was a long time ago.
01:02:30 <elliott> catseye: Yes, all those 11 -- almost 12 -- years ago, in 1999.
01:02:35 <elliott> [catseye feels UNSPEAKABLY OLD]
01:04:15 <catseye> also, if you are a large corporation: none of the developers you hire will be able to understand why you would not store currency in a float anyway.  If you are lucky they will "understand" why it should be a double.
01:04:33 <elliott> catseye: dude, this place is a sanctuary. no talking about corporate development
01:04:37 <elliott> :|
01:04:41 <catseye> not even hating on it?
01:04:51 <elliott> well okay but not all the time
01:04:57 <elliott> otherwise we'll just get #corporate-dev-sucks :P
01:05:06 <catseye> okay
01:05:41 <elliott> anyhoo
01:05:45 <elliott> i'm going in... a minute
01:07:10 <catseye> i got nothing. so don't let me stop you
01:07:15 <catseye> g'night
01:07:18 <elliott> :)
01:07:27 <elliott> pikhq: You. Figure out a way to get a RAM-based filesystem to run a system from into RAM quickly.
01:07:31 <elliott> Like "seconds" quickly.
01:07:31 <elliott> kthx
01:07:32 <elliott> :P
01:07:56 <catseye> I think "John Freeman turned on off the computer" would make an awesome quit message.
01:08:00 <catseye> Hey, I did have something!
01:08:15 <elliott> catseye: But... but I thought it was stupid! :p
01:08:26 <catseye> stupid and entertaining!
01:08:27 <elliott> Anyway it can't beat DEMOCRATIC PEER-REVIEW-BASED IRC DISCONNECTION.
01:08:34 <catseye> tru
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01:09:20 <Gregor> As demonstrated above.
01:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: No, as demonstrated by this!
01:09:56 <elliott> (As a last final note, I ought to watch Idiocracy sometime.)
01:09:59 <elliott> Gregor: BEHOLD:
01:10:03 <elliott> (Goodnight. Bye.)
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01:16:34 <catseye> Gnome desktop.
01:16:37 <catseye> Trashcan.
01:16:39 <catseye> Where?
01:22:33 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6).
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01:53:26 <Gregor> adobe_acrobat_reader is a product that is a kind of map
01:53:32 <Gregor> president_elect is a U.S. person
01:54:02 <Gregor> Whoops, copied the wrong one, that one is true X-P
01:54:07 <Gregor> shanghai is the capital city of the country china
01:54:15 <Gregor> outdoor_air is a weather phenomenon
01:54:20 <Gregor> (Is that true, or just nonsense?)
01:54:58 <Gregor> outdoor_air is a weather phenomenon
01:55:07 <Gregor> john is a musician who is part of ben_folds
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01:55:36 <Gregor> microsoft_sql_server is a consumer electronic device
01:56:22 <Gregor> envelope_llc_intelligent_nutrients is an office supply
01:56:30 <Gregor> barack is a politician who holds the office of secretary
01:58:22 <catseye> "intelligent nutrients"
01:58:35 <catseye> i like that
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02:19:43 <Quadlex> Hey eso
02:27:10 <catseye> hey Quadlex
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02:28:37 <Quadlex> How're we going?
02:28:45 <Quadlex> I'm about to call a loan shark about a job they are offering
02:30:56 <catseye> We are all going all over
02:31:43 <catseye> I almost took a job at a usurer last year :)
02:32:24 -!- augur has joined.
02:34:55 <Quadlex> An usurer?
02:35:32 <catseye> Fancy word for loan shark.
02:36:24 <Quadlex> Ah
02:36:28 <Quadlex> This is a software job
02:36:32 <Quadlex> And they actually seem really cool
02:36:34 <Quadlex> Which is weird
02:36:38 <Quadlex> http://www.cashdoctors.com.au
02:38:59 <catseye> My offer was kind of like that, too... programmers had their own offices, the pay was good, etc.
02:39:21 <catseye> I ended up going to a different place because their health insurance was kind of crap, though.
02:39:39 <Quadlex> their what?
02:39:43 <Quadlex> Health what?
02:39:50 <catseye> Quadlex: Australian! :)
02:39:59 <Quadlex> Oh right, I remember now
02:40:07 <Quadlex> We're socialist nazi commies
02:40:08 <catseye> I'm from Canada originally, but in this awful place called the United States right nw...
02:40:11 <catseye> *now
02:44:10 [unexpected log event :(]
04:46:56 <pikhq> So far, I've got to say Debian is less of a complete and utter pain than Gentoo.
04:47:55 <Sgeo> Why does GTK+ hate me using my trackpad to scroll?
04:48:45 <pikhq> ... And seems to perform better.
04:49:01 <pikhq> From inside of a VM.
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04:59:20 <catseye> fungot: HEY
04:59:32 <catseye> fungot: YOU APPEAR TO HAVE DIEDED
04:59:54 <catseye> fizzie: FUNGOT HAS APPEARED TO HAVE DIEDEDED
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05:07:47 * Sgeo allows Symantec to downgrade his beautiful new computer :(
05:13:07 <Gregor> calamari: Well, you only have two ears. With some physical simulation, should be totally feasible.
05:13:27 <Gregor> calamari: Reminds me of that barbershop recording ...
05:16:08 <pikhq> AAAARGH Debian (and clones) has one major, major breaker for me. Multiarch support is not quite finished.
05:17:03 <pikhq> calamari: Mplayer's "hrtf" plugin does that.
05:17:10 <Gregor> Yeah, multiarch sucks arse on Debian.
05:17:18 <pikhq> (abbreviation of "head-related transfer function", the method it uses for that)
05:17:20 <Gregor> I actually have a debootstrap-generated i386 chroot.
05:17:38 <pikhq> Gregor: Apparently they fell *just* short of getting multiarch into squeeze.
05:18:00 <pikhq> And here I thought it had the best chance of having decent multiarch.
05:18:02 <pikhq> God.
05:18:14 <pikhq> Why is Gentoo's multiarch support *still* the only thing that even halfway works?
05:18:20 <Gregor> sid doesn't have useful multiarch.
05:18:28 <Gregor> pikhq: Because multiarch is (relatively) easy when you build everything.
05:18:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Except it's not even doing that.
05:18:50 <pikhq> Gregor: It's... Just got a handful of tarballs of x86_32 libraries.
05:19:07 <Gregor> Uhhh, that != multiarch support :P
05:19:10 <Gregor> Even Debian has that.
05:19:17 <Gregor> Presumably Gentoo can build 32-bit libraries on x86_64?
05:19:31 <pikhq> Yeah, but it only does so for libc, IIRC.
05:20:10 <pikhq> The thing is, it also has packages for 32-bit only programs. Said programs on x86_64 depend on the tarballs instead of the actual libraries.
05:20:19 <pikhq> It's a damned hack, but *it fucking works*.
05:20:48 <Gregor> Debian has everything up to GTK+ for x86_32 on x86_64
05:20:53 <Gregor> (But that's it)
05:21:15 <pikhq> Yeah, Gentoo's got... Basically all the dependencies for programs without x86_64 versions.
05:21:18 <Gregor> Plus apparently it has an installable x86_32 Java for some unimaginable reason.
05:21:41 * Sgeo is using a Toshiba Satellite T215
05:21:42 <pikhq> There's no official x86_64 Java binaries.
05:21:53 <pikhq> Builds just fine, though.
05:22:00 <Gregor> Ohhhhh, yeah, these are the sun packages, yeah.
05:22:07 <Sgeo> Oh, it's not considered a netbook
05:22:16 <Gregor> I of course have OpenJDK :P
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05:22:50 <pikhq> Well, yeah. It's just a bit less of a pain to deal with.
05:23:30 <Gregor> I hate to say it, but Mandriva has great multiarch support :P
05:24:04 <pikhq> I have seen the dark side of its multiarch support.
05:24:06 <pikhq> *shudder*
05:24:31 <pikhq> RPM has far far too many limitations.
05:24:40 <Gregor> Oh, RPM is garbagesauce on rye.
05:24:42 <Sgeo> ATI Integrated Radeon stuff > Intel integrated?
05:24:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Hard to imagine it wouldn't be.
05:25:02 <Gregor> Sgeo: Unless you want it to work on Linux.
05:25:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Unless power usage is your consideration, yes.
05:25:24 <Sgeo> Ok
05:25:34 <Sgeo> Now, why does SL hate this thing?
05:25:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Official drivers should just work, the X11 drivers should just have somewhat shitty OpenGL performance.
05:25:46 <Gregor> pikhq: That's what I mean by "work" :P
05:25:59 <Gregor> I'm not convinced that ATI+Linux will even outperform Intel+Linux.
05:25:59 <pikhq> Gregor: No, I mean, the ones that are *built into X11*.
05:26:14 <Sgeo> Figured out how to stop XChat from minimizing to tray
05:26:28 <pikhq> Still...
05:26:44 * Gregor continues to munch on infant bones while watching the conversation unfold.
05:26:52 <pikhq> Nvidia+Linux is definitely better than ATI+Linux, performance-wise.
05:27:25 * Sgeo tries SL on lowest settings
05:30:44 * Sgeo angrily blibbers at the "32-bit only" thing in SL's requirements
05:32:15 <pikhq> You can fix that by building it.
05:33:37 <catseye> oh, talking
05:38:05 <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Orchestra_layout.svg This orchestra layout lists both "double basses" and "contrebasses". ... fail.
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05:44:54 <Sgeo> eicar time
05:45:42 <Sgeo> That worked well
05:46:09 <catseye> Gregor: there should also be separate sections for baritones and euphoniums
05:46:24 <Gregor> catseye: Considering that the arrangement is almost entirely wrong, it's sort of irrelevant.
05:46:26 <catseye> (baritone horn, of course)
05:47:10 <catseye> Not that those ever get into an orchestra.
05:47:24 <Gregor> Muahahahaha
05:47:27 <Gregor> Screw your euphonium :P
05:51:55 <catseye> Gregor: Perhaps there should be a seating arrangement for the coronets.
05:53:37 <Gregor> *cornet
05:53:47 <catseye> whoosh
05:54:00 <catseye> Good night.
05:54:10 <Quadlex> I could go a cornetto
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06:34:48 <coppro> goddamn ubuntu
06:34:53 <coppro> can you do an upgrade without breaking my sound?
06:37:08 <Sgeo> VLC comes with FluidSynth stuff?
06:37:10 <Quadlex> No
06:37:12 <Sgeo> I can just use a soundfont?
06:37:16 <Quadlex> No sound for you
06:37:34 <Quadlex> Real Ubuntu users are happy with brown wallpaper and silence
06:37:35 <Sgeo> And unicorns will take flight?
06:38:09 <Quadlex> Unicorns don't need to fly to get around
06:38:12 <Quadlex> They're just THERE
06:38:25 <Sgeo> Like Omnipresent Man!
06:38:49 <Quadlex> Yeah, he's Omnipresent, but does the bastard ever do anything?
06:38:56 <Quadlex> No, he's too busy with his hand on his dick
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06:48:01 <Vorpal> <pikhq> So, looking at seeing if/how Debian's made an abomination of things, being seduced by Slackware, aaand... I think I'll try random things from there. <-- arch is pretty good IMO
06:50:11 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Nvidia+Linux is definitely better than ATI+Linux, performance-wise. <-- last I checked, also stability-wise.
06:50:15 <Vorpal> that was a while ago though
06:50:27 <Vorpal> though intel graphics is probably most stable
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06:50:36 <Vorpal> worst when it comes to performance though
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06:52:54 <Vorpal> <coppro> can you do an upgrade without breaking my sound? <-- that is why you stay on LTS if using ubuntu
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06:58:53 <Quadlex> Vorpal: you've got some borogrove on your face
06:59:55 * Vorpal snicker-snack!
07:00:32 <Vorpal> Quadlex, new here, nick-changer, previously idler or just someone who been away for some time?
07:02:13 <Vorpal> meh, don't have time to wait for answer, need to leave or I'll miss the bus
07:03:12 <Quadlex> Newish
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07:36:17 <calamari> pikhq: re: hrtf.. thanks!
07:39:12 <fizzie> Re "brown wallpaper", also, the Meerkat wallpaper is pretty colorful and un-brown.
07:39:56 <fizzie> http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/x34gp6re/wartyfinalubuntu.jpg from a random google-image hit.
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07:48:21 <olsner> if you don't have a word for purple, that *is* brown
07:49:58 <fizzie> And I guess it's not so dissimilar in color from the not-quite-as-brown Lucid wallpaper -- http://www.kilobitspersecond.com/stuff/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg -- too.
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07:50:55 <fizzie> Karmic and Jaunty were pretty brown though.
07:51:50 <fizzie> (And Intrepid. And Hardy.)
07:58:59 <calamari> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGkkyKZVzug&feature=player_embedded#!
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08:00:31 <fizzie> You people keep saying the same thing; that link was posted by alise in 2010-09-28 and nooga in 2010-09-29. And I don't think clog was even down then, so no excuse at all!
08:01:19 <fizzie> Speaking of excuses, was I supposed to do something to fungot?
08:01:19 <fungot> fizzie: it is.
08:01:26 <fizzie> Apparently not.
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08:24:49 <oerjan> ...and xkcd is back to just weird again.
08:29:37 <cheater99> linux aqualung with "metal" skin = awesome
08:29:43 <cheater99> i feel like i'm on a c64 again <3
08:30:00 <cheater99> also, a very good music play0r
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13:41:20 <SgeoN1> I just realized something horrible about Flatterland
13:42:36 <SgeoN1> It promotes the pseudoscientific bullshit involving taking scientific words, interpreting stuff as you please, and thinking it means something
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13:44:07 <SgeoN1> I feel no guilt about spoiling this: the last scene involves the protagonist basing arguments for gender equality on Flatland's supersymmetry
13:45:29 <SgeoN1> "Supersymmetric sister! ..."
13:46:03 <SgeoN1> I forgot the rest of her advertisement on Flatland's Internet
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13:58:13 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, Speak Not Ill Of Ian Stewart.
13:59:41 <SgeoN1> I don't want to!
14:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, And Thou Wert Always At War With Eastasia.
14:03:29 <Phantom_Hoover> clog sees all, SgeoN1/
14:03:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Except when it's broken, of course.
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14:04:08 <SgeoN1> I don't want to criticise the book I loved as a kid, but I must!
14:04:37 <SgeoN1> Just like Friend Computer! Friend Computer never breaHSUDJEHDHDHDHHHU
14:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Note: do not confuse Ian and Iain Stewart.
14:05:01 <SgeoN1> *beep*
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14:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> What about Calculus the Easy Way?
14:08:32 <SgeoN1> I can't love books?
14:09:03 <SgeoN1> *multiple
14:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember you pondering why there wasn't a TV Tropes article on it a while ago...
14:09:40 -!- jcp has joined.
14:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And it doesn't seem to have a WP article, implying it's pretty obscure.
14:09:58 <SgeoN1> When it comes to books, I'm polygamous. Only with languages is it serial monogamy
14:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the easy way to do calculus was from first principles...
14:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Although "easy" there depends entirely on one's point of view.
14:16:00 <SgeoN1> Going off irc to save battery
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14:17:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/11/chilean-miners-rival-churches-tussle
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14:55:02 <elliott> quintopia: A Golly ruleset sounds interesting enough!
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14:56:11 <elliott> 17:16:34 <catseye> Gnome desktop.
14:56:12 <elliott> 17:16:37 <catseye> Trashcan.
14:56:12 <elliott> 17:16:39 <catseye> Where?
14:56:14 <elliott> Bottom right. Panel.
14:56:19 <elliott> (If using Ubuntu.)
14:56:46 <elliott> 17:53:26 <Gregor> adobe_acrobat_reader is a product that is a kind of map
14:56:48 <elliott> what are these from?
14:57:39 <elliott> 20:46:56 <pikhq> So far, I've got to say Debian is less of a complete and utter pain than Gentoo.
14:57:45 <elliott> pikhq: stable, testing, sid?
15:00:43 <elliott> 22:37:34 <Quadlex> Real Ubuntu users are happy with brown wallpaper and silence
15:00:47 <elliott> Year old information fail
15:00:51 <elliott> It's PURPLE now!
15:01:04 <elliott> 22:48:01 <Vorpal> <pikhq> So, looking at seeing if/how Debian's made an abomination of things, being seduced by Slackware, aaand... I think I'll try random things from there. <-- arch is pretty good IMO
15:01:10 -!- jcp has joined.
15:01:15 <elliott> It really isn't and pikhq is smart enough to have realised that already.
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15:32:08 <fizzie> Purple is the new brown, eh?
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15:35:19 <cpressey> < ais523> I'm amused at the way he called me a hacker with basically no evidence
15:35:31 <cpressey> wait, he... called you a hacker out of the blue?
15:35:44 <cpressey> bah, no ais523, and clog is probably still wack
15:36:54 <elliott> cpressey: ais523 has been "collaborating" with esr to get old c-intercal versions together because knuth wants it
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15:40:18 <cpressey> elliott: yes, i remembered that.  but even in that context it's a bit creepy
15:41:29 <elliott> indeed
15:41:39 <quintopia> and what knuth wants knuth gets
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15:46:17 <Sgeo> Grrrrr at glare
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15:56:17 * Sgeo falls in love with WinSCP
15:58:41 <elliott> I love croissants.
15:59:17 <cheater> crossaints love you, too
16:01:24 <elliott> Urgh, pyFLTK's API is ugly.
16:01:28 <elliott> fltk.Fl_Window...
16:01:39 <cheater> wtf's fltk?
16:01:54 <Gregor> The Fast Light ToolKit
16:02:05 <Gregor> And considering that FLTK's API is ugly itself, it's unsurprising that pyFLTK's API is ugly :P
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16:03:43 <cheater> what does it do?
16:04:20 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it's not that ugly.
16:04:23 <elliott> It's fine in C++ :P
16:04:52 <elliott> Gregor: If they just chopped the Fl_ prefixes off, and changed foo.prop(x) to "foo.prop = x" and foo.prop() into foo.prop, it'd be almost perfect.
16:04:59 <elliott> Change labelsize and the like into label_size and it'd be perfect.
16:05:55 <elliott> Oh, and making the constructor args be e.g.
16:06:03 <elliott> Button((110, 130), (100, 35), 'Okay')
16:06:04 <elliott> rather than
16:06:08 <elliott> Button(110, 130, 100, 35, 'Okay')
16:06:12 <elliott> would be a nice finishing touch.
16:09:52 <Gregor> elliott: So, if they changed almost every aspect of the API, it'd be ALMOST perfect :
16:09:54 <Gregor> *:P
16:10:04 <elliott> Gregor: Well, firstly, those are all *Python* changes.
16:10:12 <elliott> I wouldn't change the C++ API.
16:10:39 <elliott> Gregor: A sed one the names, wrapping property-functions as properties -- not hard -- and unpacking a tuple in contructors.
16:10:52 <elliott> (Then, as a super-optional thing, maybe s/foobar/foo_bar/.)
16:10:55 <elliott> *on the
16:11:09 <elliott> Not exactly major API changes, just aesthetics.
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16:11:18 <elliott> Gregor: Name something with a nicer API.
16:11:36 * Sgeo attempts to get used to this keyboard
16:14:58 <Gregor> elliott: Like all languages, all APIs suck.
16:15:07 <elliott> Gregor: Name one that sucks less.
16:15:37 <Gregor> Hell, even STL sucks less.
16:15:47 <Gregor> I don't use enough C++ to make relevant comparisons though :P
16:15:52 <Gregor> And that's suck a ridiculous challenge.
16:15:58 <Gregor> "Name an API that sucks less than <x>"
16:16:03 <Gregor> Yeesh.
16:17:25 <elliott> Gregor: name a GUI API that sucks less than FLTK
16:18:26 <Gregor> The only GUI APIs I've used are FLTK and GTK+, and GTK+ sure as hell ain't it.
16:18:41 <elliott> Gregor: Lemme put it this way.
16:18:50 <elliott> If you think FLTK has a terrible API, you haven't seen every other GUI API.
16:19:03 <Gregor> I never write GUIs.
16:19:06 <Gregor> Because GUIs are for pussies.
16:19:08 <elliott> Tk's API is better, sure. Hell, so is Shoes', although nobody uses that for serious stuff.
16:19:10 <elliott> Apart from that.
16:19:12 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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16:20:48 <Sgeo> Perl persons:
16:20:55 <Sgeo> Are delete and exists magical?
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16:31:30 <elliott> Gregor: Now you've got me mocking up half-code of a non-shitty GUI API...
16:31:34 <elliott> Damn you!
16:31:45 <cpressey> Sgeo: All of Perl is magical!
16:31:59 * Sgeo wonders why, exactly, this thing came with a 64-bit version of Win7
16:32:20 <Sgeo> It only has 2gbs, are there any relevant advantages to 64-bit considering that?
16:32:29 <cpressey> curses, you must use curses so that your app works on all terminals.  oh you want to colorize your bash prompt?  here's some vt100 escape codes, enjoy
16:34:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: actually I have no idea what you mean.  Syntactically they're slightly magical, because they take a whole hash ref as argument, but don't evaluate it.  Semantically, the hash can be tied, so other things can happen when you delete or exsists.  But that is, afaik, all.
16:34:39 * Sgeo meant the syntactical bit
16:34:53 <Sgeo> That is, in fact, magic that I can't reproduce in my own functions?
16:35:31 <elliott> Gregor: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218376/text?key=jzpmwvfrsp1qg51leacw
16:35:39 <elliott> Gregor: Look, it doesn't suck!
16:35:57 <elliott> Gregor: (_ is "arrange horizontally", | vertically)
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16:38:37 <elliott> Actually, that switch's canecl should actually be
16:38:41 <elliott> case $cancel \undo
16:38:42 <elliott> To undo the selection.
16:41:28 <elliott> Gregor: Psht, so unappreciative.
16:41:46 <elliott> Actually it should be case $cancel \cancel to cancel whatever event we're handling.
16:41:56 <elliott> Which implies to me that $cancel should have a default action of cancelling.
16:42:07 <elliott> Making the case perhaps unnecessary.
16:42:08 <elliott> But whatever.
16:42:26 <elliott> cpressey: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218391/text?key=p2lt6cdvyvt1bgy7u9pj2q
16:42:28 <elliott> cpressey: ADMIRE
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16:47:23 <cpressey> Sgeo: Not by any way I'm aware of, but my awareness essentially ends around 5.6 -- after that it's all a blur
16:47:31 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218391/text?key=p2lt6cdvyvt1bgy7u9pj2q
16:47:31 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: ADMIRE
16:47:33 <elliott> :|
16:47:49 <cpressey> elliott: attack of the mutant yamls.
16:47:59 <elliott> cpressey: 'TIS NOT YAML
16:48:04 <elliott> cpressey: 'TIS GOOEY
16:48:16 <elliott> cpressey: As I said, _ means horizontal arrangement, and | means vertical
16:48:19 <elliott> The rest is somewhat obvious
16:48:32 <elliott> modified: [text contents != pages .(page_list selected) text]
16:48:32 <elliott> page_text: [pages .(page_list selected) text]
16:48:34 <elliott> this needs changing to
16:48:41 <elliott> page_text: [pages .(page_list selected) text]
16:48:42 <elliott> modified: [text contents != page_text]
16:48:45 <elliott> in fact
16:48:47 * elliott tweaks a bit
16:49:32 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1218407/text?key=rvfz2k1dho97nel635zhg
16:49:34 <elliott> There.
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17:00:19 <elliott> cpressey does not even acknowledge my design POWAH
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17:03:32 <Gregor> Moop
17:03:46 <elliott> NOR DOES GREGOR
17:04:00 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1218407/text?key=rvfz2k1dho97nel635zhg You made me do this, it's *your* responsibility to comment!
17:04:46 <Gregor> *yawn*
17:05:03 <elliott> SCOUNDREL
17:07:21 <elliott> Wirth's law: "Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster."
17:07:43 <elliott> Heh, didn't realise anyone had called it "Wirth's law" before.
17:08:15 <elliott> "Wirth attributed the saying to Martin Reiser" -- thus continuing to fulfil -- what's that law's name again?
17:08:25 <elliott> Where things are never attributed to the first person to think of them, instead the second.
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17:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> How bookendy.
17:13:50 <elliott> what
17:14:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can you link me to that site that has a shitload of spaceships catalogued in various rules?
17:14:09 <elliott> and it tells you which are inverses of others, etc.
17:14:11 <elliott> blue backrgound
17:14:12 <elliott> *background
17:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's one of Golly's external thingies IIRC.
17:15:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's not affiliated with golly
17:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but Golly can still look at it
17:15:32 <elliott> aha
17:15:33 <elliott> you're right though
17:15:34 <elliott> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/
17:16:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It has 3 more gliders for Day & Night than for Life.
17:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
17:16:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the inverted versions, presumably
17:16:23 <elliott> or something
17:16:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Even then, there are definitely more than 40 spaceships in Life,
17:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And it's not that dated, either: it has the Caterpillar in it.
17:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn these Golly developers!
17:18:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be that hard to replace give_obnoxious_warning_about_not_being_able_to_do_something_while_generating(); with stop(); do_thing();?
17:18:54 <elliott> golly's ui is terrible
17:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It's... tolerable, if you zoom out when using Quicklife.
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17:21:24 <elliott> its editing is so limitedly-designed as to be useless
17:21:46 <elliott> simple operations like clearing a 50,000 x 50,000 square somehow take ten minutes
17:22:04 <elliott> okay so maybe that's more reasonable :)
17:22:05 <elliott> but still
17:22:08 <elliott> most of it was empty!
17:22:15 <elliott> the controls are blergh
17:22:18 <elliott> you can't save colours per-pattern
17:22:19 <elliott> dfjgodfjsiojh
17:22:20 <elliott> it sucks
17:22:46 <elliott> Gregor: Wow. Tiny Core Linux has a KDE package.
17:22:57 <Gregor> Tiny Core is awesome :)
17:22:57 <elliott> Gregor: Never has KDE been in a less appropriate setting X-D
17:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, clearing a square is going to take a long time unless you're clever about it.
17:23:08 <elliott> "I totally want a ten megabyte micro-distro... with KDE 4."
17:23:11 <Gregor> It's Tiny CORE Linux, not Tiny EVERYTHING Linux
17:24:07 <elliott> Tiny Core may be cool but it's not as cool as KITTEN
17:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Existing is so uncool.
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17:27:36 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
17:28:06 <HackEgo> 155|<Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing
17:28:24 <elliott> `quote
17:28:27 <HackEgo> 215|<fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
17:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
17:28:59 <HackEgo> 127|<Ami> Discrimination fields ACTIVATE.
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17:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
17:29:07 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
17:29:13 <elliott> `quote
17:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
17:29:17 <HackEgo> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva.   <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
17:29:18 <elliott> `quote
17:29:21 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
17:29:21 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
17:29:24 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
17:29:27 <HackEgo> 19|<Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom
17:29:31 <elliott> `quote
17:29:34 <HackEgo> 2|<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
17:30:06 <elliott> `quote
17:30:09 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
17:30:30 <elliott> `quote
17:30:33 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
17:31:25 <elliott> `quote
17:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
17:31:34 <HackEgo> 88|<Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs.   <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
17:31:37 <HackEgo> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
17:31:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218391/text?key=p2lt6cdvyvt1bgy7u9pj2q BEHOLD (because nobody else will)
17:31:44 <elliott> whoops wait
17:31:46 <elliott> that's an older one
17:32:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218501/text?key=kgj5a2hgnlvgoqqntjkg
17:32:06 <elliott> BEHOLD
17:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what's it for?
17:32:10 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1218501/text?key=kgj5a2hgnlvgoqqntjkg
17:32:11 <elliott> that one
17:32:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I complained about pyFLTK's API, Gregor complained about FLTK's API
17:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, is that Smalltalk?
17:32:25 <elliott> I noted that all GUI libs sucked
17:32:30 <elliott> I wrote my own fakecode for something that sucked a bit less
17:32:32 <elliott> No it isn't
17:32:39 <elliott> And the previous one sucks, only look at the latest one
17:32:40 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
17:32:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what?
17:32:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait...
17:32:50 <elliott> At 5:32 PM?
17:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> No, stuff
17:33:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know
17:33:06 <elliott> "-> stuff"
17:33:08 <elliott> is a lame way of saying
17:33:11 <elliott> bbl :P
17:36:38 <cpressey> fungot: are you still broken?
17:36:38 <fungot> cpressey: riastradh oh, indeed. i'd prefer to just call fnord or whatever.)
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17:41:11 <elliott> Gregor: UNFORTUNATELY KDE4-DESKTOP.TCZ DOESN'T INSTALL.
17:41:15 <elliott> "Error on hunspell.tcz"
17:41:21 <elliott> Should have gone with attilaspell.tcz
17:43:09 <Gregor> Hooplah
17:43:15 <Gregor> elliott: Only Atilla can install it.
17:43:31 <elliott> Gregor: Totally preempted you there.
17:43:54 <Gregor> Foobar.
17:44:15 <elliott> IT MIGHT BE WORKING THIS TIME
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17:48:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what distro is that?
17:50:06 <elliott> Vorpal: "I see no reason to listen to you"r questions.
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17:51:13 <Vorpal> mhm
17:51:29 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough
17:53:19 <cpressey> select the function you want to call from the dropdown
17:53:26 <cpressey> ...
17:53:27 <cpressey> DO IT
17:54:03 <elliott> cpressey: Sounds like Excel.
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18:14:33 <nooga> someone just told me that i'm Roy from IT Crowd
18:14:59 <nooga> actually i heard it twice
18:15:06 <nooga> from my boss and from my date
18:15:06 <nooga> ;f
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18:28:22 <elliott> Gregor: you're right gui development sucks
18:34:14 <nooga> sucks
18:36:27 <Vorpal> elliott, not giving me credit for saying that several times before? Oh well *shrug*
18:37:06 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't do GUI development because of some sort of cognitive deformity. I was merely referring to the current crop of *common* toolkits.
18:37:14 <elliott> There are a few I like, but they are mostly dead projects.
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18:38:00 <elliott> And please either start ignoring me entirely, or talk in more than passive-aggressive slights.
18:41:18 -!- augur has joined.
18:41:36 <elliott> hi augur
18:42:00 <augur> hello elliot
18:42:32 <elliott> TWO FUCKING TS
18:42:41 -!- jcp has joined.
18:43:49 <nooga> why
18:43:55 <nooga> elliot sound okay to me
18:44:16 <nooga> what's the difference between t and tt anyway?
18:48:07 <elliott> okay, nougart
18:48:14 <elliott> *nougat
18:48:28 <elliott> (OK, so it's not pronounced identically, but my point is made.)
18:54:24 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:55:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You can't do GUI development because of some sort of cognitive deformity. I was merely referring to the current crop of *common* toolkits. <-- hm, no, I never claimed I wasn't able to do it at all in theory
18:55:55 <Vorpal> I said I disliked it, and implicitly referred to any GUI toolkits I used
18:56:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> And please either start ignoring me entirely, or talk in more than passive-aggressive slights. <-- do you know what "the golden rule" means?
18:57:20 <elliott> I am perfectly willing to not talk to you if you stop highlighting me with questions that ask for a response.
18:57:50 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
18:57:53 <fizzie> elliott: fi:aita = en:fence, fi:aitta = en:granary/storehouse/whatever. We have these delightful meaning-changes when it comes to "t"/"tt".
18:58:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I have nothing against talking to you in general.
18:58:04 <Vorpal> elliott, /msg?
19:00:57 <cpressey_> Korean also pronounces t/tt (and d/dd) differently.
19:01:02 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:01:19 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
19:01:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:03:17 <fizzie> cpressey: Also, I didn't notice anything wrong with fungot; maybe you just hit the "I will only answer to the same guy four or so times in a row" limit?
19:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: then ask for more time to demi, irc-galleria, pouet, deviantart, newsgroups etc. it would be more fun
19:03:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
19:03:40 -!- jcp has joined.
19:04:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the t/tt thing change the quality of the t or the letter before it (the latter would be like in Swedish)
19:05:18 <cpressey> fizzie: that must be it.
19:08:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think officially what it changes is the length of the silent part in /t/. It doesn't (much) change the neighbouring letters; Finnish has, or at least is approximated reasonably well by a simple mapping from text to phonemes.
19:08:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
19:09:08 <Vorpal> hm what do you mean with silent part though
19:09:52 <fizzie> The stop in it.
19:10:00 <fizzie> Record something with a t and take a look if you want.
19:10:58 <Vorpal> ah
19:11:27 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:12:05 <fizzie> "In the articulation of the stop, three phases can be distinguished:
19:12:06 <fizzie>     * Catch: The airway closes so that no air can escape through the mouth (hence the name stop). With nasal stops, the air escapes through the nose.
19:12:06 <fizzie>     * Hold or occlusion: The airway stays closed, causing a pressure difference to build up (hence the name occlusive).
19:12:06 <fizzie>     * Release or burst: The closure is opened. In the case of plosives, the released airflow produces a sudden impulse causing an audible sound (hence the name plosive)."
19:12:09 <fizzie> The middle part, then.
19:12:21 <Vorpal> of course, double consonants can change a lot in Swedish too, but in that case it changes the quality of the preceding vowel. Like sil (en:sieve) and sill (a kind of fish, seems like I forgot what that one is called in English)
19:13:28 <elliott> Grr, I hate it when TLDs and language codes don't match.
19:13:35 <elliott> se.wikipedia.org is not Swedish.
19:14:49 <fizzie> The 'sv' code is a bit annoying; I remember not noticing it when looking at a suitable keymap in NetBSD, since it only listed them by language code. (There wasn't one for fi, but sv is usable enough.)
19:15:25 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I agree it is annoying
19:15:26 <elliott> It would be nice to have a translate thing here that uses interwiki.
19:15:29 <elliott> e.g.
19:15:43 <elliott> <elliott> `tr sv sill
19:15:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I always have to think if I want se or sv when I select keymap on a livecd
19:15:48 <elliott> <HackEgo> Atlantic herring
19:15:52 <elliott> <elliott> `tr sv sill no
19:16:02 <elliott> <HackEgo> Whoops no article lol
19:16:06 <Vorpal> elliott, herring sounds about right
19:16:09 <elliott> <elliott> `tr sv sill nn
19:16:22 <elliott> <HackEgo> ERROR REFUSE TO SHOW NYNORK BECAUSE AM BIGOT BOT
19:16:30 <elliott> nynork, what a spelling error
19:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what really? :D
19:16:43 <Vorpal> `which tr
19:16:47 <elliott> haven't made it yet!
19:16:48 <elliott> plan to though
19:16:52 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/tr
19:16:52 <fizzie> Nynork sounds like some sort of a D&D monster.
19:16:53 <elliott> interestingly, the Swedish wiki links to the Nynorsk article for herring
19:16:55 <Vorpal> elliott, oh
19:17:02 <Gregor> tr has been borkleborked for a while.
19:17:02 <Gregor> IIRC
19:17:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed!
19:17:05 <elliott> and that one links to the Bokm\oal one
19:17:06 <Gregor> Erm
19:17:11 <Gregor> IGNORE MY PAST THREE LINES.
19:17:15 <elliott> but
19:17:21 <elliott> the Swedish one doesn't link to the bokmal one directly
19:17:29 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, tr is a bit bad name for it
19:17:30 <Vorpal> as in
19:17:31 <elliott> Which is just odd.
19:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes yes, I didn't think.
19:17:43 <elliott> Instead ponder why interwiki is silly.
19:17:56 <elliott> What kind of interwiki doesn't catch second-level interwikis?
19:17:59 <Vorpal> elliott, trans or something like that might work (unless that is taken too, in which case I guess I didn't think)
19:18:02 <elliott> (i.e. "this listed interwiki links to this other interwiki")
19:18:09 <Vorpal> [think that is was] that is ;)
19:18:12 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe "iw" for interwiki
19:18:55 <Vorpal> elliott, iw says here: "Usage: iw [options] command" but then I wouldn't expect it on a server, since it deals with 802.11 stuff
19:19:11 <elliott> It goes in ~/bin, so who cares.
19:19:16 <Vorpal> true
19:19:30 <Vorpal> elliott, tr is the kind of thing shell scripts in ~/bin might use
19:19:38 <Vorpal> but yeah, iw would work very well
19:19:43 <cpressey> Nynork nynork, it's a helluva town
19:19:58 <elliott> "<query-continue>" fuck you i want the whole query
19:19:58 <quintopia> cpressey thinks the way i do, apparently
19:20:18 * quintopia high fives
19:20:24 <olsner> nynork?
19:20:41 -!- jcp has joined.
19:20:48 <elliott> olsner: I actually meant nynorsk
19:21:05 <quintopia> when you're blue and you don't know where to go to, why don't you go where fashion sits?
19:22:39 <elliott> http://redhatinbluesea.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/j4lup.jpeg
19:23:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Or even "interwiki" + "translate" = intertrans! The most vague thing ever.
19:23:35 <elliott> Except having connotations of an intersexed, transgender person.
19:23:42 <Vorpal> elliott, true, a bit tedious to type though
19:23:43 <elliott> Or wikilate.
19:23:58 <Vorpal> I mean, there are some virtues in a short name
19:24:01 <elliott> "11 am? I'm afraid you're wikilate. You're wikifired."
19:24:07 <Vorpal> hah
19:24:13 <elliott> *wikiam
19:24:32 <elliott> Vorpal: So do you have an wl(1)?
19:24:43 <Gregor> "wikileven wikiam? WikI'm wikfraid wiki're wikilate. Wiki're wikifired."
19:24:53 <elliott> Bork bork bork
19:24:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not on any turned on computer at least
19:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, that jpg (err, jpeg actually, how unusual), is it supposed to be on top of a communion bread?
19:25:33 <Vorpal> it kind of looks a bit like that
19:25:34 <elliott> No.
19:25:39 <elliott> It's Putin on the ...
19:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is obviously Putin :P
19:25:51 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttin'_on_the_Ritz
19:25:54 <olsner> putin on the ritz?
19:26:02 <olsner> that is SOOOOO funny
19:26:02 <elliott> olsner: yes
19:26:10 <elliott> So funny it has a capital SOOOOO?
19:26:12 <Vorpal> augh
19:26:22 <Vorpal> :D
19:26:26 <olsner> yes, THAAAAAT funny
19:28:37 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:28:43 <elliott> Gregor: HackEgo totally needs a way to take quoted arguments.
19:28:53 <elliott> By which I mean "please, god, don't make me feed every call through sh".
19:29:08 <elliott> Actually you can just use _.
19:29:09 <elliott> But still.
19:29:37 <Vorpal> elliott, the `run thingy isn't that irritating IMO. Just 4 letters more
19:29:53 <elliott> Yes, but still.
19:29:59 <Vorpal> but sure, it would be nice to avoid it
19:30:43 <Vorpal> elliott, still, there are more annoying things, like !haskell doing ghci then ghc, and not reporting any errors for some cases
19:30:52 <Vorpal> (instead just failing silently)
19:31:06 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, does HackEgo have network?
19:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember he used the owner netfilter match
19:31:23 <Vorpal> to check for uid
19:31:32 <Vorpal> to block it for all but a handful of things
19:31:35 <elliott> Gregor: tl;dr I need *.wikipedia.org access.
19:32:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is, he was considering how to solve the network issue then I mentioned the owner match and he concluded it fitted perfectly, so unless he changed I presume he still uses that
19:32:43 <elliott> Mhm.
19:33:10 <Vorpal> hm I just noticed how silly "so unless he changed I presume he still uses that" actually is if you read what it actually means
19:33:34 <Gregor> elliott: It has an http proxy, I can give extra access on request. Wikipedia seems reasonable, one sec.'
19:33:45 <elliott> Gregor: I need all language codes, mind :P
19:33:54 <Vorpal> (of course he might not be, in which case he isn't, and then doesn't use that)
19:33:58 <elliott> Can I just access normally or do I need to write my program for the proxy?
19:34:02 <Vorpal> okay, that was a bit too extreme to match zzo
19:34:14 <Gregor> elliott: It needs to be proxy-aware.
19:34:26 <Gregor> elliott: If you're writing something using e.g. wget to do requests, then you're fine.
19:34:29 <elliott> Gregor: Fucking fuckshit fuck you okay how do I do it?
19:34:33 <elliott> I don't, I use urllib2 :P
19:34:42 <elliott> Gregor: Is it SOCKS or something horrible?
19:34:50 <Gregor> It's a standard HTTP proxy.
19:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that's python isn't it (urllib2 I mean)?
19:34:53 <Gregor> It can't be SOCKS.
19:34:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
19:35:10 <Vorpal> elliott, why the 2, I never seem to remember seeing any urllib
19:35:18 <elliott> There is a urllib.
19:35:21 <elliott> urllib2 uses it internally.
19:35:24 <Vorpal> oh
19:35:26 <elliott> In Python 3 it's a saner name.
19:35:31 <Vorpal> ah
19:35:39 <elliott> class urllib2.ProxyHandler([proxies])
19:35:40 <elliott> Cause requests to go through a proxy. If proxies is given, it must be a dictionary mapping protocol names to URLs of proxies. The default is to read the list of proxies from the environment variables . If no proxy environment variables are set, in a Windows environment, proxy settings are obtained from the registry’s Internet Settings section and in a Mac OS X environment, proxy information is retrie
19:35:40 <elliott> ved from the OS X System Configuration Framework.
19:35:52 <elliott> Gregor: What's the URoLogy?
19:35:58 <elliott> By which I mean URL.
19:36:04 <Gregor> It's in $http_proxy
19:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is only to be expected, they did use the opportunity of python 3 breaking things anyway to clear up some weirdness
19:36:36 <Vorpal> `run echo $http_proxy
19:36:40 <Vorpal> hm
19:36:44 <elliott> Gregor: OR IS IT
19:36:47 <Vorpal> `help
19:36:51 <elliott> `run echo $HTTP_PROXY FUCK YEAH
19:36:52 <Vorpal> err
19:36:55 <HackEgo> http://127.0.0.1:3128
19:36:56 <HackEgo> FUCK YEAH
19:36:56 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:37:01 <Vorpal> ah just slow
19:37:18 <elliott> Gregor: Why couldn't you just IP firewall it ;__
19:37:21 <elliott> *;__;
19:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, he is doing that as well
19:37:41 -!- jcp has joined.
19:37:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, you still use the owner match I presume?
19:38:42 <elliott> Gregor: "The default is to read the list of proxies from the environment variables"
19:38:45 <elliott> You should totally set that propertly
19:38:55 <elliott> *variables." (it's " ." in the source text but I'm sure that's a mistake.)
19:38:59 <elliott> *properly.
19:41:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:41:32 <pikhq> elliott: I was testing Testing.
19:41:37 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
19:41:41 <elliott> pikhq: Testing? Testing testing?
19:41:55 <pikhq> elliott: Apparently Sid isn't going to get multiarch support until Squeeze is made stable.
19:41:59 <elliott> Testing testing testing? ("Testing to see if you want to test testing")
19:42:03 <elliott> pikhq: KITTEN
19:42:09 <elliott> MULTIARCH UP THE ANUS^WWAZOO
19:42:14 <Sgeo> Someone should write unit tests for the unit tests of the unit testing framework
19:42:25 <pikhq> So, basically, until then, Debian will suck more than Gentoo on amd64, regardless.
19:42:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, multiarch as in proper lib32?
19:42:40 <pikhq> elliott: So, how *is* Kitten going to handle multiple ABIs?
19:42:42 <Vorpal> that would be so awesome
19:42:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
19:43:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Gentoo kinda sucks at it and has it very hacky.. (tarballs of libraries) Debian has that, but less comprehensive.
19:43:21 <elliott> pikhq: # pkg ins libc --arch=x86
19:43:28 <elliott> pikhq: # pkg ins libc --arch=x86-64
19:43:33 <elliott> pikhq: # pkg ins libc --arch=arm
19:43:38 <pikhq> elliott: And the filesystem layout?
19:43:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, most distros I know of has it very hacky
19:43:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Quite true.
19:43:59 <pikhq> elliott: Per-ABI bin/lib/... dirs?
19:44:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, correction: all distros, except arch recently made it somewhat more sane
19:44:05 <elliott> pikhq: I'm open to suggestions on that. Probably something like /lib32, /lib64, /libarm.
19:44:20 <elliott> pikhq: Or, perhaps even: root is your native architecture, beyond that it's /arch/...
19:44:21 <elliott> So
19:44:25 <elliott> /lib/libc.a
19:44:33 <elliott> /x86/lib/libc.a
19:44:37 <elliott> But really, I'm open to suggestions.
19:44:46 <pikhq> elliott: Make it the actual ABI tuple.
19:44:55 <elliott> pikhq: Sure.
19:45:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, arch still doesn't provide a complete set of 32-bit packages on 64-bit, but the repo and package layouts is quite a bit saner than in gentoo (one package matches one package, not one package matches a bunch of loosely related packages)
19:45:03 <elliott> pikhq: I might hide it away in an /arch/ directory to avoid the ugly.
19:45:09 <Gregor> Sorry, had an ad-hoc meeting.
19:45:14 <elliott> Wait, does NetBSD have ABI tuples?
19:45:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:45:30 <pikhq> It's an autotools convention that's gotten spread elsewhere.
19:45:36 <elliott> Right.
19:45:51 <Vorpal> it is one of the few sane things coming from autotools
19:45:52 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not sure what the OS part of Kitten's would be though.
19:46:01 <elliott> *-netbsd-...what?
19:46:34 <pikhq> And it'd probably be best to have the same filesystem layout regardless of what the native ABI is; some packages hardcode paths in, and it's easier to not have to patch that.
19:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, *-netbsd-<whatever sort of userland you use>
19:46:54 <Vorpal> bsd userland? I presume you wouldn't use gnu userland
19:46:56 <elliott> Vorpal: *-netbsd-kitten, then.
19:46:59 <elliott> Well, maybe.
19:47:06 <elliott> I might use newlib libc with BSD coreutils. Who knows?
19:47:09 <pikhq> elliott: The convention is that the last bit is based on the libc.
19:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, then *-netbsd-newlib
19:47:40 <elliott> Vorpal: But what if I change libc?! (Okay, yeah, everything will have to be rebuilt anyway :P)
19:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, exactly :P
19:47:49 <pikhq> For instance, i686-pc-linux-gnu for a "normal" Linux system, but i686-pc-linux-uclibc for a uclibc system.
19:47:59 <Vorpal> elliott, except you could now have them side by side when rebuilding!
19:48:07 <pikhq> elliott: If you have the filesystem layout based on the ABI tuple, you could have them both!
19:48:14 <pikhq> elliott: Even if you dynamically link!
19:48:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, the pc stuff, none of my systems have it
19:48:25 <elliott> pikhq: AAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:48:30 <elliott> Anyway, yes.
19:48:39 <elliott> As far as I'm concerned there's no reason not just to have an arch option when building packages.
19:48:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, actually one does
19:48:53 <elliott> Easy enough for the package to have arch-specific dependencies, too.
19:48:58 <Gregor> Heh, Wikipedia was already whitelisted :P
19:48:58 <Gregor> `run wget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ -O -
19:49:03 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> \ <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" dir="ltr"> \ <head> \ <title>Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia \ 
19:49:06  pikhq, one is x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, the other ones are x86_64-linux-gnu
19:49:10  `run wget http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/ -O - | head
19:49:12   \  \  \ Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin \ 
19:49:17  Cool.
19:50:09  elliott, nice coincidence, head getting (most of)  
19:50:16  Not most of :P
19:50:21  There's a lot in .
19:50:23  ah
19:51:08  `run curl http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/ | head
19:51:10  Gregor: What's the download-this command again?
19:51:11  No output.
19:51:16  oh no curl I presume
19:51:28  So, it seems Mandriva is the only distro with actual multi-arch support.
19:51:28  elliott, `fetch maybe
19:51:31  Gag.
19:51:35  pikhq: KITTEN
19:51:47  pikhq, mandriva is in all other aspects not a sane choice
19:51:58  Vorpal: Quite right.
19:52:06  sounds pretty neat to have all architectures' packages available and installable
19:52:09  pikhq, also I'm surprised it supports it if other RPM based distros don't
19:52:25  olsner: Well, that's the thing; there isn't one pakage per architecture.
19:52:33  yeah, mostly useful for ones you can run, for cross compiling it is a bit more work
19:52:34  There's "newlib" and if it supports the given architecture, good for you.
19:52:44  elliott, source based distro?
19:52:46  Vorpal: It will treat it all as cross-compilation.
19:52:53  wait, is this source-based?
19:53:00  Just with the knowledge that "gcc -m32" is a valid 32-bit cross-compiler on 64-bit.
19:53:03  elliott, ever done a canadian cross?
19:53:09  Vorpal: olsner: Not source-based.
19:53:18  Although you will be able to build-and-install a package with one command.
19:53:23  If you really want to for some reason.
19:53:31  Vorpal: RPM itself actually has support for multiple ABIs. No other distro *actually uses it*.
19:53:36   elliott, ever done a canadian cross?
19:53:38  No. Thank god.
19:53:39  pikhq, heh
19:53:47  elliott, indeed
19:54:06  Canadian cross = just don't go there.
19:54:26  Basically 32-bit and 64-bit support will just work... I'll have to tell the package manager about cross-compilers for --arch=arm on x86 or something, but that's not so difficult.
19:54:28  elliott, I heard someone cross compiling gdb on OS X to run on linux (the resulting gdb binary that is). Why? Because it had to target debugging OS X. Remote kernel debugging.
19:54:31  cross-compiling a cross-compiler? what's so hard about that? :D
19:54:34  I mean...
19:54:36  and it didn't want to compile on linux
19:54:44  All it has to do is install the relevant cross-compiler.
19:54:51  compared to that, a canadian cross seems like a stroll in the park!
19:54:57  (There probably won't be one package per host and target architecture.)
19:55:10  (Instead, a cross-compiling gcc or whatever will be a single metapackage, taking host and target as argument/options.)
19:55:13  Vorpal: There effectively is no anything-to-OS-X cross-compiler, so that's unsurprising.
19:55:16  well, if you do canadian cross of the compiler, you'll probably want to do it of the rest of the toolchain too, including gdb
19:55:38  `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1218858/text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg
19:55:42  2010-10-13 18:55:36 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1218858/text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg [1486/1486] -> "text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg" [1]
19:55:43  Gregor, actually the guy got the cross compiling to OS X to kind of work, but not for gdb.
19:55:50  so the osx-linux-osx gdb thing would pretty much be included in the work for the canadian cross
19:55:51  wait
19:55:55  that actually doesn't work without `run
19:56:00  `run rm "text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg"
19:56:03  No output.
19:56:14  ...wtf
19:56:14  Gregor, as in, he successfully cross compiled "hell of a world" as a test (he refused to use "hello world" after all he had to go through to make it work)
19:56:19  oh it's html
19:56:19  heh
19:56:22  &prop
19:56:24  turned into alpha
19:56:25  somehow
19:56:26  wait no not alpha
19:56:29  proportional-to
19:58:33  `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog
19:58:35  2010-10-13 18:58:29 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog [1553/1553] -> "text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog" [1]
19:58:39  `run mv text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog bin/wl
19:58:44  `run chmod +x bin/wl
19:58:44  No output.
19:58:49  No output.
19:58:54  `wl sv sill
19:59:01  Oh wait
19:59:02  No output.
19:59:03  I downloaded the text
19:59:08  if kitten is netbsd-based, will the freebsd opera builds work?
19:59:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:59:20  olsner: maybe. who knows? if not, try the linux emulation ;)
19:59:25  `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog
19:59:28  2010-10-13 18:59:22 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog [1124/1124] -> "download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog" [1]
19:59:41  `run cat download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog >bin/wl; rm download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog
19:59:48  No output.
19:59:50  `wl sv sill
19:59:53  No output.
20:00:00  `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1
20:00:04  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/tmp/hackenv.13346/bin/wl", line 5, in  \     import json \ ImportError: No module named json
20:00:11  `run python --version
20:00:13  No output.
20:00:17  `run python -V
20:00:19  No output.
20:00:22  `run python -V 2>&1
20:00:24  Python 2.5.5
20:00:27  Gregor: 2.6 plz
20:00:42  elliott, will kitten still run on toasters?
20:00:52  Vorpal: Yes. If your toaster can run X11.
20:01:00  (Okay, so X11 isn't required, but still.)
20:01:14  elliott, hah. Will it be officially supported?
20:01:27  Vorpal: Yes, if your toaster has a standard PC inside.
20:01:38  elliott, ouch. That is not likely
20:01:48  Neither is your toaster having any kind of computer inside :)
20:02:05  elliott, well of course, but I meant, even ATX-mini is a bit large :P
20:02:07  Vorpal: OTOH, all brands of coffee maker will be supported.
20:02:19  Hopefully I will support RFC2324.
20:02:36  Wow, RFC2324 is sucky. It isn't even REST!
20:02:51  elliott, ah nice, I have one here that is completely devoid of anything like an integrated circuit
20:03:09  Vorpal: I redefine "coffee maker" to mean "coffee maker with a computer hooked up to it".
20:03:12  it is just a plain old electrical coffee maker, so simple inside that even your grandmum could understand it :P
20:03:26  What's all this about toasting kittens?
20:03:26  elliott, and that computer must be a PC? :D
20:03:39  Gregor, ...you did that intentionally right?
20:03:49  Toasted kittens? NEVER!
20:04:03   Wow, RFC2324 is sucky. It isn't even REST! <-- the cofee makers never rest!
20:05:00  alias coffee="curl -d '' http://kitchenpc:999/brew"
20:05:03  elliott: How about 2.7
20:05:07  elliott: BTW, one of the major reasons to actually have per-ABI directories is so that you actually have the flexibility to do something like install x86 programs on ARM and have them "just work" with qemu (and Linux's arbitrary ABI support).
20:05:18  alias coffee-status="curl -q http://kitchenpc:999/status"
20:05:19  elliott, um that should be the BREW method :P
20:05:20  $ coffee
20:05:24  $ coffee-status
20:05:25  NO COFFEE YET
20:05:30  $ coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee
20:05:42  FLOOD
20:05:50  (as in, a flood of coffee)
20:05:52  Vorpal: No, this is HTCPCPCP
20:06:01  Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol Crappy. Perfect!
20:06:06  elliott, yes indeed! it flooded your kitchen with cofee
20:06:09  coffee
20:06:09  It is the RESTful alternatiev to HTCPCP.
20:06:35  eugh, "BREW method" ... don't write brew with all-caps or I'll be reminded of Binary Runtime Environment for Wireless :/
20:06:55  hungarian coffee
20:06:55  olsner, what was binary runtime environment for wireless?
20:07:03  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREW
20:07:08  Gregor: You can apt upgrade the stuff inside, right?
20:07:13  Gregor: Plz just upgrade Python to 2.6
20:07:13  elliott: No.
20:07:19  elliott: But I can install from source.
20:07:23  Gregor: Okay... well... do that please :P
20:07:28  Python 2.5.5 is ancientish.
20:07:31  Why 2.6 and not 2.7?
20:07:39  Gregor: Sure, 2.7.
20:07:42  Debian is just ancient.
20:07:46  So I didn't think it'd have 2.7.
20:07:48  OH SNAP
20:08:01  Worse yet, HackBot is on Debian Lenny.
20:08:04  Which is why it has 2.5
20:08:30  Gregor, is lenny not like previous stable?
20:08:31  Didn't they promise to start upgrading regularly?
20:08:32  BREW :(
20:08:35  Vorpal: current stable
20:08:39  ah
20:08:40  but it's had point-releases
20:08:42  but fuck that shit
20:08:49  coppro: Get on to fucking that shit, stat.
20:08:58  Gregor: Anyway, not hamm?
20:09:01  elliott, which was previous stable? There was something in between woody and lenny right?
20:09:14  Gregor: I mean, ideally buzz of course, but hamm at the very least.
20:09:17  elliott, why not python 3 btw?
20:09:30  elliott: Potato
20:09:31  elliott: I used potato once :P
20:09:33  Vorpal: Python 3 is completely useless as it has approximately 0 library support and approximately 0 things written in it.
20:09:39  anyone want to hear a TERRIBLE math class homework question?
20:09:41  Gregor: Potato is .2 versions newer than hamm! Can't have that.
20:10:04 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:10:06  quintopia: ALWAYS
20:10:06  Man, what will Debian do when they run out of Toy Story characters?
20:10:11  Start naming them after the individual soldiers?
20:10:21  Which of the following are continuous functions? (Select all that apply.)
20:10:24  elliott: Use Toy Story {2,3} characters, presumably.
20:10:30   1 The temperature at a specific location as a function of time. 2 The temperature at a specific time as a function of the distance due west from New York City. 3 The altitude above
20:10:32  Gregor: And then? :P
20:10:34                sea level as a function of the distance due west from New York City. 4 The cost of a taxi ride as a function of the distance traveled. 5 The current in the circuit for the lights in a
20:10:38                room as a function of time.
20:10:47  Gregor: Even that plan has... flaws.
20:10:53  Gregor: "Boy, I can't wait for Debian barbie!"
20:10:58  quintopia, any other ones?
20:11:00  I was just about to say that :P
20:11:01  quintopia, or was that all?
20:11:06  tht's it
20:11:08  elliott: http://lackof.org/taggart/hacking/multiarch/ Oh, here's a thought on how to do multiarch "right".
20:11:13  elliott: I preordered the Barbie Computer Engineer :P
20:11:31  quintopia, well I don't know about taxi, but all the other ones are discrete, due to quantum mechanics
20:11:38  Gregor: Debian lotsohugginbear
20:11:38  my best guess at reading the asker's mind says "the first three" while the actual correct answer i believe to be "none of the above"
20:11:46  pikhq: reading
20:12:00  Gregor: (Yes yes, it'd just be lotso, shut up.)
20:12:11  however, the problem is compounded by not knowing whether the asker wants time zones to be taken into account in number 2.
20:12:22  pikhq: OK, well, it looks relatively good, except:
20:12:35  pikhq: The -os prefix is stupid, Kitten is not going to run on the same FS as any other OS.
20:12:47  elliott: Maybe ... JUST MAYBE ... at some point they'll come to their senses and use numbers.
20:12:48  quintopia, anyway, current in a circuit might be continuous if there is a dimmer connected (well not really due to quantum mechanics9
20:12:49  pikhq: And /*/foo directories are silly and /foo/* is a far better structure for things like that.
20:12:52  s/9/)/
20:13:13  Gregor: Debian stretch
20:13:15  Gregor: Debian chunk
20:13:16  elliott: But you might want to support another OS's ABI someday.
20:13:19  vorpal: ignoring quantum mechanical effects, 5 would be continuous with or without a dimmer.
20:13:21  Gregor: Debian chattertelephone
20:13:26  Gregor: Debian jackinthebox
20:13:32  Debian pricklepants
20:13:41  ("What are you running?" "Debian pricklepants.")
20:13:42  quintopia, well yes, since current doesn't change instantly
20:13:48  pikhq: Well, okay, NetBSD does support Linux emulation.
20:13:51  pikhq: BUT STILL
20:13:54  but i suspect the asker expects to also ignore the latency in change of current in a wire
20:14:00  Gregor: Debian totoro (I <3 THAT CAMEO FOREVER)
20:14:01  quintopia, so why not write a proper answer to it!
20:14:09  (<3 <3 <3)
20:14:15  elliott: Just use it so that you can have multiple kernel ABIs "just work".
20:14:21  pikhq: MAYBE
20:14:32  elliott: Not having to change things in the future is GOOD.
20:14:38  pikhq: I'LL THINK ABOUT IT
20:14:39  quintopia, surely you can't get in trouble from writing a paragraph answering it properly
20:14:50  Gregor: Oh man Debian zurg.
20:14:55  That had better be the best release EVER.
20:15:10  Vorpal: it's not my homework.  i have no need to.  i just wanted to post its awfulness here so that i could say that the person whose homework it is, after getting a wave of complaints that the question is ambiguous, said "i'll go ask somewhere where people will actually want to help me."
20:15:14  elliott: They can use that as a transitionary release by spelling it both "zurg" and "zerg"
20:15:22  elliott: Then they can have Debian Protoss and Debian Terran
20:15:27   quintopia, well I don't know about taxi, but all the other ones are discrete, due to quantum mechanics ;; oh come on
20:15:29  Admittedly that doesn't get them too much farther ...
20:15:37  quintopia, okay then the person who asked for help is stupid too
20:15:39  Gregor: Unit names.
20:15:45  pikhq: PERFECTION
20:15:47  Vorpal: jexactly
20:15:51  elliott, wasn't it obvious it was a joke?
20:16:06  Vorpal: No, because it wasn't funny :P
20:16:26  Gregor: Wait. With Totoro they can "reasonably" claim that My Neighbour Totoro took place entirely within the Toy Story universe.
20:16:42  elliott, okay, lets rephrase that: wasn't it obvious it couldn't have been meant to be taken seriously?
20:16:42  Gregor: I'm talkin' Debian catbus here.
20:16:42  Gregor: Alternately, they could *commission* more Toy Story films just to have more namespace.
20:16:46  Gregor: :P
20:16:46  elliott: i also stated that the correct answer would be "none of the above" due to the discrete nature of the universe. want to bitch me out for pedanticism too?
20:16:49  elliott: There ya go, lots of new names.
20:16:52  elliott: YES
20:16:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:16:54  quintopia: Yes
20:17:06  Man, Debian catbus.
20:17:14  No OS can ever possibly hope to live up to that name.
20:17:16  "Toy Story 4: Debian Versioning"
20:17:28  heh
20:17:52  pikhq: But Disney/Pixar are jerks, so they give all the characters names in Klingon.
20:17:57  Or numbers.
20:18:07  Hi, I'm 4.7
20:18:15  Debian Qapla'
20:18:18  But Debian wouldn't use the number-names in order.
20:18:27  They'd have Debian 5.5, then Debian 4.7, then Debian 8.2
20:18:32  Gregor: Debian 8 "4.7"
20:18:37  *8.0
20:18:40  Exactly :P
20:19:04  Or maybe Debian 8.0 "Four Point Seven"
20:19:09  that would be quite fun
20:19:26  hm
20:19:31  Oh man, the Tux would have to be a character in Toy Story 4: Debian Versioning.
20:19:33  *no the
20:19:44  With his friend, Debian
20:19:49  Debian 12.0 debian
20:19:54  elliott, they could reuse the cast from previous movies in the newly commissioned one. That would be even more jerky
20:20:06  deb http://http.us.debian/org/debian debian main
20:20:42  elliott, oh and of course the Gnu gnu, just to irritate everyone but FSF. Oh wait, they would probably irritated too, since that is the natural state of them.
20:21:07  Debian 13.0 "gnu"
20:21:15  Have rms appear as the main antagonist
20:21:17  they should have the cast be: woody, buzz, bo peep, the main bug from bug's life, the little boy from Up, Mike Waczowski, and Tux
20:21:28  But they won't use outright evil characters for release names will they :(
20:21:38  elliott, no. Debian GNU/Linux 12.0 "gnu"
20:21:38  :P
20:21:39  elliott: sid
20:21:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:22:14 -!- augur has joined.
20:22:20  Debian 14.0 "Linux linux"
20:22:22  pikhq, sid is always fixed to unstable though afaik
20:22:24  pikhq: ...is the unstable release.
20:22:30  oh, are the debian releases named after toy story characters?
20:22:33  They'll never codename experimental because that's giving it too much legitimacy :P
20:22:36  olsner: Yeees...
20:22:37  elliott: And an outright evil character.
20:22:40  olsner, .... yes
20:22:44  olsner, or actually no
20:22:47  no
20:22:47  olsner, it is the other way around
20:22:58  ok
20:23:02  It's a coincidence!
20:23:04  olsner, Toy story characters are named after Debian releases
20:23:13  pikhq: sid is never released.
20:23:14  So it's not a release.
20:23:51  elliott, experimental, is that like unstable, just more so?
20:23:58  Oh, the next release codename is actually coming from Toy Story 2.
20:24:02  "wheezy".
20:24:19  elliott, hm when did they run out of Toy Story characters?
20:24:23  or when are they going to maybe
20:24:31  Vorpal: Staging area for things that have yet to hit unstable.
20:24:37  pikhq, heh
20:24:40  there are plenty of characters left
20:24:59  I would definitely use Debian T-Rex
20:25:07  I wonder what'll happen with Ubuntu.
20:25:14   elliott, hm when did they run out of Toy Story characters?
20:25:15  pikhq, in what sense?
20:25:17  They'll be fine for years.
20:25:24  elliott, ah
20:25:30  they will start over from the beginning of the alphabet iirc
20:25:30  Since they have a release once every two years or so :P
20:25:31  Vorpal: when ubuntu run out of alphabet
20:25:36  Gregor: twice a year
20:25:36  oh
20:25:37  right
20:25:47  So in something like 2017, OH GOD
20:25:52  Zygotic Zebra will come out
20:26:09  Zygotic. Wow.
20:26:10  And then... THEN WHAT
20:26:18  Gregor: Yes, even I'm amazed at how awesome that was.
20:26:19  And then Amorphous Aardvark. They have yet to use A.
20:26:22  no, they wouldn't use zygotic
20:26:28  Shut up.
20:26:34  elliott, well, they will just continue incrementing the unicode code point
20:26:36  zany maybe
20:26:38  pikhq: Truth
20:26:41  quintopia: You are boring
20:26:45  What letter did they start on?
20:26:46  and when that runs out we are probably not using *nix based systems any more
20:26:47  Wait...
20:26:48  or, more likely, zippy, "CAUSE ITS FAST LOL"
20:26:52  They only started the alphabetical thing recently.
20:26:54  Well "recently"
20:26:58  Gregor: W, then H, then B, then they went alphabetical.
20:27:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:27:03  W, H, B, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N is planned.
20:27:16  hm
20:27:27  So they have two Hs. Heh.
20:27:30  elliott, which one was the first H?
20:27:32  So they have A, B and C after 2017.
20:27:36  They reüsed H. Darnit.
20:27:36  OK, so next would be Þ
20:27:38  the second would be hedgehog
20:27:38  So 2018/2019.
20:27:39  something hippo
20:27:42  Vorpal: Hoary Hedgehog
20:27:45  lame
20:27:49  elliott, was that not the second one?
20:27:51  Then Ð
20:28:02  the second was hardy heron
20:28:04  Vorpal: Yes.
20:28:06  ah
20:28:09  quintopia: no it wasn't
20:28:12  hardy heron was 8.04
20:28:14  Then Ƿ
20:28:16  hoary hedgehog was 5.04
20:28:18  elliott: second h
20:28:21  oh
20:28:24  i thought you meant
20:28:25  second ubuntu
20:28:27  (which was hoary)
20:28:30  ah
20:28:47  elliott, on the other hand, think of a suitable name starting with c
20:28:49  I can't
20:28:50  Anyway after Cashmere Civet they'll have run out.
20:29:02  elliott, best I managed was "chaotic camel"
20:29:05  How about Cheshire Cat
20:29:08  which does not sound very good
20:29:11  And move to Toy Story characters.
20:29:13  And then...
20:29:15  there's a whole list of planned future names for ubuntu versions already...put your suggestions there
20:29:21  Gregor, Cheshire is not an adjective
20:29:24  Abrasive Ab...
20:29:24  Ab...
20:29:26  Uh...
20:29:34  elliott, must it be first *two* letters?
20:29:39  Vorpal: You fail
20:29:43  Vorpal: Yes it is. "Of or relating to Cheshire."
20:29:45  elliott: Abalone
20:29:48  pikhq, oh hah
20:29:58   Have rms appear as the main antagonist <-- this made me think of the bathtub monster from Rose is Rose (both eat toes)
20:30:00  elliott, they need to get aardvark
20:30:01  Vorpal: Yes.
20:30:13  Aardvarklike Aardvark
20:30:17  lol
20:30:19  No, seriously, Ab
20:30:22  Animal starting with Ab
20:30:22  Aardvarkish Aardvark?
20:30:29  elliott: abalone IS animal
20:30:29  elliott, "hardy heron", "karmic koala"?
20:30:32  Gregor: Anthropomorphic Aardvark. For the furries.
20:30:32  elliott: You already said Abalone
20:30:38  elliott, that is first one letter, not first two
20:30:39  quintopia: Yes
20:30:41  Errr
20:30:44  Abrasive Aberlone
20:30:45  s/you/quintopia/ >_>
20:30:47  *Abalone
20:30:52  Wait
20:30:55  you're right Vorpal
20:30:58  pikhq: It has to be aa
20:31:18  AAAAAAAaaaaaaaargh Aardvark
20:31:21  elliott@dinky:~/Code/wl$ grep '^aa' /usr/share/dict/words
20:31:21  aardvark
20:31:21  aardvark's
20:31:21  aardvarks
20:31:24  shouldn't it rather be something like aardvarkomorphic anthrope to refer to furries?
20:31:25  for the pirates fed up with ubuntu
20:31:41   you're right Vorpal <-- of course ;)
20:31:52  SO IGNORING AA
20:31:57  Gregor: A'a Aarvdvark?
20:32:01  Accurate Ac...
20:32:01  Ac...
20:32:15  Actually Aardvark?
20:32:20  s/accurate/acerbic/
20:32:25  Acerbic Ac...
20:32:26  Ac...
20:32:28  HALP
20:32:36  "andalism" -- first line of [[Abalone]]
20:32:57 -!- cpressey has joined.
20:33:15  elliott, anyway, jaunty was the only one I remember where it is actually first two letters that are the same.
20:33:31  Vorpal: But after Cashmere Civet, they've run out of alphabet.
20:33:38  So we go to Aa, Ab, ..., Az, ..., Zz
20:33:41  Accidental Acupuncturist
20:33:48  Gregor: THAT IS NOT AN ANIMAL
20:33:48  Yes, an acupuncturist is an animal.
20:33:52  elliott, so they keep incrementing the unicode codepoint I told you!
20:33:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:33:58 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:34:08  acanthocephelan ftw!
20:34:10 -!- tombom has joined.
20:34:10 -!- tombom has quit (Changing host).
20:34:10 -!- tombom has joined.
20:34:13  Vorpal: So... {
20:34:17  {eric {gne
20:34:21  elliott, they need to get something starting with the del char into the dictionary quickly
20:34:23  :P
20:34:24  The famous {gne animal.
20:34:34  elliott, indeed!
20:34:47  I can't wait for いたい　いぬ (itai inu).
20:34:54  I can't wait til Gnaught Gnu comes out.
20:35:04  elliott, once they reach the Chinese letters it will be easy
20:35:04  *Gnaughty
20:35:23  Ghastly Gnu
20:35:26  elliott, hm, which one was I?
20:35:29  as in
20:35:34  Gnawing Gnu.
20:35:35  Vorpal: intrepid ibex
20:35:37  ah
20:35:53  and what was F?
20:35:57  and what was E?
20:35:58 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:36:04  Fucking Falcon
20:36:14  elliott, I swear they pick intentionally obscure adjectives. Okay, lucid wasn't, but many other ones were
20:36:15  Erect Ermine
20:36:28  Fucking Falcon, how does that work?
20:36:39  cpressey: have you a cloaca?
20:36:48  (By the principle of the Multiparadigm clusterfuck, apparently.)
20:37:01  quintopia: haven't checked recently
20:37:02  elliott: Wordnet says: http://p.zem.fi/ab-animals -- okay, so it counts pretty much anything that's alive by any definition, but...
20:37:19  fizzie: Abortus?
20:37:24  Is that the ... result of an abortion?
20:37:30  elliott: Yes.
20:37:34  fizzie: THAT'S NOT ALIVE
20:37:46  elliott: Well, http://p.zem.fi/b5og you see.
20:37:49  Accredited Achatellinus
20:37:53  cpressey: you can do it with one hand, while typing
20:37:54  Amiable Abortus
20:38:42  Still, there's two quite viable ab-animals there:
20:38:47  1. abalone, ear-shell -- (any of various large edible marine gastropods of the genus Haliotis having an ear-shaped shell with pearly interior)
20:38:48  1. abrocome, chinchilla rat, rat chinchilla -- (ratlike rodent with soft fur and large ears of the Andes)
20:38:51  When do we get to Augmented Australopithecine?
20:38:58  fizzie: Already said abalone.
20:39:08  Gregor: "Ages away"
20:39:29  Or are WE the Augmented Australopithecine?
20:39:32  (Oooooh)
20:39:34  (Aaaaah)
20:39:38  Abortus isn't animal, it's a murdered human! 
20:39:38  What # is u in the alphabet?
20:39:52  ("Right next to me.")
20:40:06  elliott: what?
20:40:12  abcdefghijklmnopqrstu
20:40:13  21
20:40:13  elliott: A, B, C, D, E, F, G
20:40:24  Gregor: Augmented Australopithecine is in about 2039.
20:40:25  elliott: H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P
20:40:25  elliott: Q, R, S
20:40:27  elliott: T, _U_
20:40:27  do re mi fa so la ti do
20:40:37  Axiomatic Axolotl
20:40:38  M=Math;C=12;f=[];R=[];A='charCodeAt';S='slice';for(P=0;P<96;){k="/SN;__/NK;OL/QN;__/OL;NK4L@@_C4_G@OL4SO@__4QN@OL3NB?_G3_K?OL/QN;__/SK;__4OL@__4LC@_G4LC@_G4_C@_G"[A](P);D="\0\0";for(j=0;k<95&&j<1e4;){v=M.max(-1e4,M.min(1e4,1e6*M.sin(j*M.pow(2,k/C)/695)))/M.exp(j++/5e3);D+=String.fromCharCode(v&255,v>>8&255)}R[P++]=new Audio("data:audio/wav;base64,UklGRgAAAABXQVZFZm10IBAAAAABAAEAwF0AAIC7AAACABAAZGF0YSBO
20:40:39  "+btoa(D))}for(e=i=252;i--;)f[i]=i%C&&i<240?(i+1)%C?r=0:'█
':'█';t=p=4;function d(c){for(q=p+[13,14,26,25][r%4],i=1;i<99;q+=((i*=2)==8?[9,-37,-9,37]:[1,C,-1,-C])[r%4])if('36cqrtx'[A](t)&i)if(-c){if(f[q])return 1}else f[q]=c}function m(e){Q=[-1,0,1,C][e?e.keyCode-37:3]||0;d(0);p+=Q;r+=!Q;s=d(1);if(s)p-=Q,r-=!Q;d('▒');document.body.innerHTML=f.join('').replace(/0/g,'░');return s}onkeydown=m;o=
20:40:39  function(){P=P%96;for(_ in[1,2,3])R[P++].play();if(m()){t=~~(7*M.random()),p=r=4;e=d(1)?1e9:e;for(y=0;y<240;)if(f[S](y,y+=C).join().indexOf('0')<0)f=f[S](0,C).concat(f[S](0,y-C),f[S](y))}setTimeout(o,e*=0.997)};o()
20:40:42  ^ Tetris, with music.
20:40:43  *do re mi fa sol la si do
20:40:53  http://js1k.com/demo/730
20:40:57  fis@eris:~$ wn animal -treen
20:40:57  Hyponyms of noun animal
20:40:57  Search too large.  Narrow search and try again...
20:40:57  (What a silly limited thing.)
20:41:00  Gregor: ?
20:41:29  aloril, lang?
20:41:33  elliott, lang?
20:41:39  Phantom_Hoover: javascript
20:41:43  see http://js1k.com/demo/730 in firefox
20:41:45  (no music in chrome)
20:42:10  Is the music actually coded into the program?
20:42:14  coppro: Just correcting your solfege :P
20:42:24  Have to love the data:audio/wav dynamic audio-synthery.
20:42:27  elliott: you pinged me earlier
20:42:28  why
20:42:32  also how goes wa?
20:42:33  coppro: did I?
20:42:43  Gregor: it's ti in some languages
20:42:44  15:08 < elliott> coppro: Get on to fucking that shit, stat.
20:42:44  Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
20:42:46  Phantom_Hoover: It's also computed.
20:42:47  coppro: ah yes.
20:42:57  15:08 < elliott> coppro: Get on to fucking that shit, stat.
20:42:57  well you are the coprophiliac
20:43:01  ...
20:43:14  oerjan: LOSER LANGUAGES.
20:43:14  elliott: tetris is popular as a programming project precisely because it can be written with so little code
20:43:24  elliott, is it the actual Tetris music?
20:43:27  Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
20:43:29  Just load the page!
20:43:51  O.o
20:43:55  quintopia: Oh come on, Tetris with speeding-up and *the original Tetris theme generated in wav* in 1024 bytes is pretty damn impressive.
20:43:56  Phantom_Hoover: http://js1k.com/demo/730
20:44:41  elliott, the first 8 bars or so, not the full piece.
20:44:50  Phantom_Hoover: oh shut up
20:44:51  it's awesome
20:45:24  I was thinking they had some awesome procedural generator specially configured to belt out the full theme.
20:45:26  NOT HAPPY
20:45:38  Phantom_Hoover: IT'S AWESOME GO TO HELL
20:45:55  Anyway it's approximately the whole theme.
20:45:59  BUT NOT AS AWESOME AS IT COULD BE
20:46:06  elliott: i'm not hearing the music in firefox, and also, this version doesn't seem to let me hold down a key to move the block a long distance
20:46:07  It's enough to sing I Am The Man... to it.
20:46:13  quintopia: which Fx version?
20:46:15 * pikhq needs a decent pair of speakers, but is cheap. Dammit.
20:46:20  also, holding down helps
20:46:21  for speed
20:46:27  also, i don't think you realise just how little code 1k is
20:46:35  3.6.3
20:46:38  Gregor: How goes 2.6?
20:46:43  quintopia: OS?
20:46:53  I'm on 3.6.10, so, try upgrading.
20:46:58  elliott: Apparently it's in the repos, but since I hadn't updated Hackbot's chroot in roughly all eternity, it's not installed :P
20:47:08  Gregor: I thought you said you were gonna source it.
20:47:18  elliott: I was, until I noticed it was in the repo anyway.
20:47:23  Gregor: So how's that going
20:47:28  Still upgrading.
20:47:36  lawl
20:47:41  I bet it breaks everything.
20:47:45  Probably.
20:47:50  But *eh*, these things happen.
20:48:09  I've recreated the Hcakiki chroot three times after breaking it horribly by trying to do stupid things.
20:48:13  I can do the same with Hackbot.
20:48:15  *Hackiki
20:48:17  *HackBot
20:48:56  also, where is my preview of the next block >:
20:49:21  quintopia: Man up.
20:49:34 * elliott writes HASKTRIS
20:49:39  No, wait.
20:49:40  Lazytris
20:49:47  elliott: Then compile that to <1K of JS.
20:49:51  Gregor: X-D No.
20:50:17  !haskell randomIO
20:50:32  Gregor: :|
20:50:42   I do not like you, elliott.
20:51:04   I do not like green eggs and ham, either.
20:51:12  I do not like them, Ego I am.
20:51:32   I do not like them on the 'net.
20:51:48  I can't rhyme *shrugs*
20:52:24  !haskell 42
20:52:36  42
20:53:26  what an unexpected result!
20:53:48  but I guess it is too lazy to compute the question
20:54:05 -!- augur has joined.
20:54:27  in lazytris the block isn't actually drawn until it hits bottom.  you better _pray_ you hit the right buttons.
20:55:13  oerjan, actually, the blocks doesn't hit the bottom until you lose.
20:55:16  http://codu.org/imgs/rc.png Images I've left floating around codu.org that are totally self-descriptive.
20:55:39  Vorpal: wicked
20:55:44  Gregor, hah
20:55:53  It is the nineties and there is time for JSKlax?
20:56:21  Gregor, any idea what rc.png actually is. I'm genuinely interested
20:56:28  Not even the foggiest bit of a clue.
20:56:43  Gregor, to tell the truth it looks pretty random. Which rules out a lot of stuff rc could stand for
20:56:48  Clearly something with poorly-correlated axes.
20:57:01  race condition!
20:57:09  Gregor, what about timestamp on file?
20:57:09  Random Crap
20:57:15  Gregor, maybe you could grep logs
20:57:24  if ever mentioned on irc
20:57:27  I doubt it was #esoteric-related.
20:57:33  Or otherwise IRC-related
20:57:33 * augur greps gregor's logs
20:57:40  hm okay
20:57:52  augur: I hope you're using a -E!
20:57:54   It is the nineties and there is time for JSKlax? ;; wat
20:58:02  oh right klax.
20:58:38  klix klax
20:59:01  oerjan: sequence.repeat$randomIO
20:59:02  make this work plz
20:59:08  :P
20:59:50  not a chance
21:00:22  aha randomRs
21:00:22  try randoms<$>newStdGen instead
21:00:34  oerjan: right :p
21:01:06  Prelude Random> g<-newStdGen
21:01:09  Prelude Random> randoms g :: [Int]
21:01:09  [
21:01:46  huh
21:02:29  elliott: Whoever writes copy for the Xubuntu installer should be shot.
21:02:35  pikhq: What does it say?
21:02:38  `run top -l 1
21:02:50  elliott: erm did it hang at [ ?
21:02:53  oerjan: yes
21:02:54  elliott: It's got grammatical and spelling errors.
21:02:59  pikhq: Do quote.
21:03:12  The one I remember most strong was "linux".
21:03:13  weird
21:03:15  Yes, lower-case.
21:03:19  pikhq: (Xubuntu doesn't get nearly as much love as (K)ubuntu)
21:03:49  *cough*aptosid*cough*
21:03:52  No output.
21:04:06  Gregor: What differences does it have from Sid?
21:04:12  pikhq: More ricer.
21:04:18  pikhq: Just bugfixes.
21:04:19  pikhq: It's sid for people who think that pre-installed KDE is a grand idea.
21:04:26  (Well, the LiveCD uses KDE.)
21:04:34  elliott: The XFCE live CD uses XFCE.
21:04:48  Meanwhile, sid uses whatever the fuck you install :P
21:05:02  Gregor, I would be surprised if the xfce livecd used, say, fluxbox
21:05:04  :P
21:05:05  There is basically no reason not to just use testing anyway.
21:05:24  elliott: aptosid is more up-to-date than testing, at the cost of being less stable.
21:05:32  testing is not exactly out-of-date.
21:05:40  elliott: Depends on the packages.
21:05:44  elliott: *package
21:05:55  elliott: Some packages are basically right up to latest, others trail behind.
21:05:55  Testing's usually pretty up-to-date. It only ceases to be even vaguely so when they do a freeze for a new stable.
21:06:10  (Yeah, the freezes are annoying to)
21:06:21  !haskell import System.Random; main = print.take 10.randoms=< ok this works:
21:06:47  import Random
21:06:47  main=do{g<-newStdGen;print(randoms g::[Int])}
21:06:51  but gives horrible things
21:06:51  Yeesh, I'm doing a system upgrade on Codu and NOW everybody's hammering it >_<
21:06:58  elliott@dinky:~/Code/lazytris$ runhaskell lazytris.hs | head -c 50
21:06:58  [-7911342775086485719,-3419649560986927097,-704380lazytris.hs: : commitAndReleaseBuffer: resource vanished (Broken pipe)
21:07:26  this game is hard: http://js1k.com/demo/823 (my high score after 4 plays is only 11!)
21:07:33  elliott, I'm not surprised at the broken pipe
21:07:40  quintopia: http://sibeli.us/ <-- this game is hard
21:07:45  quintopia: yikes
21:07:45  (Not 1K JS though)
21:07:47  Vorpal: I meant the integers.
21:07:55  elliott, they *are* integers
21:08:01  Yes. Yes they are.
21:08:08  Gregor: That game makes you listen to Sibelius, though.
21:08:10  elliott, so just do abs() or something if that is the issue
21:08:20  elliott, that is nasty
21:08:37  elliott: s/makes/allows/
21:08:57  Gregor, what is the goal of the game?
21:08:59  Vorpal: Or use randomRs.
21:09:07  Vorpal: Welcome to Sibeli.us! This is a web based version of that insipid game-music genre that's popular lately, with a twist: The music is Sibelius' Finlandia. Sound easy? Feel free to try! Use the keys '1', '2', '3' and '4' or 's', 'w', 'b' and 'p' when an action hits the relevant letter (and music). And have fun!
21:09:24  Gregor: It needs to penalise you for pressing swbp when there's nothing there.
21:09:29  elliott: It does.
21:09:36  elliott: It just doesn't let your score go below 0.
21:09:37  Gregor: Doesn't go negative though.
21:09:39  LAME
21:09:51  oh wait
21:09:54  I mixed up people
21:09:56   this game is hard: http://js1k.com/demo/823 (my high score after 4 plays is only 11!)
21:09:59  I want to go for minimum possible score!
21:09:59  is the one I meant
21:10:04  what is the goal of that game
21:10:04  Vorpal: Get the blue.
21:10:06  er
21:10:08  get the orange
21:10:09  you are blue
21:10:10  ah
21:10:15  grey is dead
21:10:19  timer runs out is dead
21:10:27  okay
21:10:49   http://sibeli.us/ <-- "meh, flash"
21:10:56  but then, I'm no sibelius fan
21:11:17  Vorpal: Flash only for audio.
21:11:23  Gregor, oh?
21:11:25  Vorpal: And don't say HTML5.
21:11:30  Gregor, don't you um need that for the page?
21:11:32  HTML5
21:11:32  Vorpal: If you say HTML5, I punch you in the face.
21:11:35  Oh, that was the installer for the last LTS version. Why would I want *that*?
21:11:40  Gregor: that game would be ridiculously easy if it were smooth and synced with the music properly
21:11:44 * Gregor punches elliott in the face.
21:11:48  quintopia: Windows?
21:11:55  Gregor: It's punch-worthy because it works!
21:11:58  GREGORLOGIC
21:12:11  Or I guess Gregor supports IE.
21:12:21  gregor: no.  it would probably work in windows.  adobe supports windows...
21:12:28  quintopia: No, it's SHIT in Windows.
21:12:32  quintopia: It's much better everywhere else.
21:12:40  i shall attempt it in chrome
21:13:12  s/chrome/chromium/
21:13:13   Gregor: It's punch-worthy because it works! <-- he thinks it doesn't
21:13:16  for zee
21:13:31  It doesn't work for ZEE for different reasons ...
21:13:46  well, except for zee it works nicely
21:13:48  with html5
21:13:54  It doesn't work for Sibeli.us because no implementation communicates time very well.
21:14:05  Your mom doesn't communism.
21:14:07 * Vorpal forces elliott to use gopher5
21:14:13  For ZEE HTML5 can't loop properly. Neither can Flash, but it's a modicum better.
21:14:35  Gregor, why not just use jsmips + proper code to loop! ;)
21:14:50  Vorpal: Because HTML5 doesn't support synth, only feeding it audio files.
21:14:56  import Random
21:14:56  main=do{g<-newStdGen;let b=randomRs(0,6)g::[Int]}
21:14:57  ah
21:14:59  The beginnings of LAZYTRIS
21:15:09  Gregor, no streams?
21:15:21  Vorpal: Honestly, if HTML5 Audio had a function to just hand it bits to spit out, that would be ideal.
21:15:27  Gregor: #whatwg
21:15:39  Vorpal: It can do streams (sometimes), but that's a waste of bandwidth if you're just looping.
21:15:39  Gregor, with streams you could do it properly server-side
21:15:47  hm
21:15:49  s/igork/pluda/
21:16:01  Gregor, maybe you need to do it locally instead of in the browser then
21:16:07  Gregor, using sdl or such
21:16:16  Vorpal: The SDL version of ZEE loops beautifully :P
21:16:24  Which is why I sort of don't care that the browser version is crapsiloo.
21:16:28  Gregor, oh, you somehow combined sdl + js?
21:16:34  Yup >:)
21:16:39  Gregor, how
21:16:39  http://codu.org/projects/gjs/
21:16:50  Manually is how :P
21:16:57  slow to load
21:17:02  still waiting
21:17:08  Codu is doing a system upgrade right now, yeeeesh
21:17:39  Gregor, timed out
21:17:51 * Gregor projects hatred at Vorpal
21:17:56  Gregor, why?
21:17:59  ah now it works
21:18:09   Codu is doing a system upgrade right now, yeeeesh
21:18:11  hatred: makes stuff work
21:18:19  yes
21:18:30  Gregor, I just updated you on the current situation
21:18:39  !run wget http://everything | bzip2
21:18:44  THANK YOU FOR KEEPING ME APPRISED.
21:18:54  cpressey: `run
21:19:00  elliott: thank you.
21:19:02  `run wget http://everything | bzip2
21:19:18  BZh9rE8P
21:19:18  Gregor, IT WAS SO LITTLE. NOTHING TO THANK ME FOR.
21:19:26  olsner: Gregor is all about red hats
21:19:33  HackEgo: CoooOOoooOOool
21:19:44  Gregor, what js engine do you use?
21:19:45  oerjan: ooh, that's clever
21:19:47  in gjs
21:19:53  Vorpal: Spidermonkey
21:19:58  Gregor: V8!
21:20:00  Gregor, not v8?
21:20:00 * elliott gets shot
21:20:04  >_<
21:20:24  As a professional in the field of JavaScript behavior: Screw V8 :P
21:20:33  Gregor, oh? fun
21:20:44  Gregor, it is probably faster though
21:20:50  It would be.
21:20:52  Undeniably.
21:20:55  oh, V8 is broken? nice :D
21:21:00  olsner: NO.
21:21:01  Er
21:21:06  Didn't mean for that to be caps.
21:21:06  olsner: No.
21:21:18  Vorpal: But since all of my time is spent in SDL, that's irrelevant.
21:21:30  Gregor, ah
21:21:32  [from] whence Screw V8 then?
21:21:32 * elliott wonders if Gregor will bother qualifying his statements about v8
21:22:20  V8 has great performance in a possibly-general-case-but-maybe-not-it's-never-really-been-quantified, and EXTREMELY bad performance in other cases.
21:22:51  With semantically-innocuous changes to JS code, I can make v8 balloon up 30x.
21:23:01  I can't get SpiderMonkey to go more than 4x.
21:23:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:23:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:23:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:23:16  you should write a JS benchmark :D
21:23:26  olsner: See my upcoming PLDI paper (if it's accepted)
21:23:45  Gregor, PLDI?
21:23:54  Vorpal: http://google.com/search?q=pldi
21:24:16  Gregor, pldi.net or the sigplan link?
21:24:16  gregor: runs smoother in chromium, but letters are still about a half second ahead of music.  got a 362174 somehow
21:24:22  Vorpal: The SIGPLAN link X_X
21:24:31  those fast sections should have the letters moving faster :/
21:24:32  Gregor, there was also a stanford link
21:24:40  quintopia: A half second? That's mega-screwy, something weird in your audio.
21:24:46  Vorpal: That's just a particular instance of the conference.
21:25:12  http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/ looks like a good link
21:25:14  Gregor, ah, sigplan is acm, meaning I should be able to get it through the university proxy if it is acccepted
21:26:19  Gregor: You shoulda put up a paper online, changed one wording in one paragraph and then submitted it :P
21:26:21  Ad-hoc open access
21:26:44  Oh
21:26:45  You did
21:26:52  elliott, fail indeed :P
21:26:52  Or... did you
21:26:54  Is http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/ it?
21:27:15  Gregor: Is that TeX with Times?
21:27:23  WHY IS IT SLANTED
21:27:40  elliott, slanted, where?
21:27:43  That is LaTeX with SIGPLAN's instituted templates.
21:27:51  Vorpal: zoom out and look
21:27:54  the text is slanted slightly
21:28:06  I don't see it. Oh well
21:28:16  elliott: I think your brain is slanted slightly.
21:28:16  elliott, TeX with Comic Sans would have been worse anyway
21:28:43  Also, at least it's not Word :P
21:28:49  elliott, my pdf reader does not list times as being embedded
21:29:02  unless
21:29:05  what is txtt?
21:29:08  it's important
21:29:14  there is NumbusRomNo9L and such
21:29:30  Numbus lol
21:29:33  thou failest
21:29:44  oops
21:29:47  Nimbus
21:29:57  elliott, I use qwerty yes :P
21:30:09  Fucking FONTophiles
21:30:27  Gregor++
21:30:37  elliott, as long as it isn't nubus I'm happy
21:30:37  seriously? Nimbus is just an imitation of Times.
21:30:44  Nubile Sans.
21:30:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:57  elliott, Times Sans
21:31:02  Helvetica Serif
21:31:06  indeed!
21:31:09  Comic Serif OH GOD WHY
21:31:17  http://www.swiss-miss.com/2008/04/helvetica-serif.html
21:31:18 -!- augur has joined.
21:31:24  elliott, Comic Antiqua! (spelling?)
21:33:07  Arial Tapered and Pointy
21:33:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:33:32 -!- wareya has joined.
21:34:37  elliott: I totally lied.
21:34:39  `run /opt/python27/bin/python -c 'print "Hello"'
21:34:40  Hello
21:35:09  Gregor, how did you lie?
21:35:23  Vorpal: I said I was going to just install a newer system Python. But I did not :P
21:35:36  Gregor, so you compiled from source in the end?
21:35:41  Yup
21:35:49  Gregor: Now replace the normal python with it :P
21:35:56  elliott: Not gonna happen.
21:35:59  Why not?
21:36:17  elliott: Because that's part of the system, and since the upgrade went all kerplutz I've decided maybe I just want to leave that as-is.
21:36:37  If you want /usr/bin/python2.7, that can be arranged.
21:36:44  HackEgo: Hi.
21:36:44  Gregor: Okay, put /opt/python27/bin first in the PATH.
21:36:58  Actually, that most certainly can be arranged.
21:37:03  (And should be)
21:37:26  Yeah, I had some fun after moving my system python to 2.7
21:37:37  Well, not even that
21:37:56  Just putting a Python 2.7 called 'python' in my ~/bin which is on my path
21:38:17  Suddenly #/usr/env/bin python has EXCITING NEW SEMANTICS
21:38:22  *!#
21:38:29  **#!
21:38:59  `which python
21:39:03  /opt/python27/bin/python
21:39:24  cpressey: Luckily, putting it in this PATH is more OK as it's only used for things within HackEgo :P
21:39:32  cpressey, new semantics? how so?
21:39:44  Gregor: I'm sorry to hear that.  (ok, not really)
21:39:46  Vorpal: Suddenly, it pulls up the python in his ~
21:39:57  pikhq, yes that is obvious
21:40:04  pikhq, I meant, "it isn't like it went to python3"
21:40:10  so things should just continue to work
21:40:20  Point releases can still break things sometimes.
21:40:24  Vorpal: tell that to ubuntu system tools
21:40:41  cpressey, oh, hah
21:41:12  `wl sv sill
21:41:15  No output.
21:41:21  `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1
21:41:25  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/tmp/hackenv.15489/bin/wl", line 37, in  \     q = query(continue_id) \   File "/tmp/hackenv.15489/bin/wl", line 29, in query \     response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() \   File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen \     return _opener.open(url,
21:41:30  we totally need #!/usr/bin/guess_format_and_interpret
21:42:09  We totally need an OS with sufficient metadata that the format of every file can be known.
21:42:21  Of course, I also totally need a pony.
21:42:45  `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n'
21:42:47  Traceback (most recent call last):  File "/tmp/hackenv.15552/bin/wl", line 37, in     q = query(continue_id)  File "/tmp/hackenv.15552/bin/wl", line 29, in query    response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read()  File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen    return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError:
21:42:57  `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n' | tail -c +50
21:43:00  ckenv.15603/bin/wl", line 37, in     q = query(continue_id)  File "/tmp/hackenv.15603/bin/wl", line 29, in query    response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read()  File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen    return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError: ProxyHandler instance has no attribute 'open'
21:43:08  I'll fix it later.
21:46:38  DISCOVERY: Browser that supports HTML5 Audio + PCM .wav + data: URLs = do client-side loop unrolling!
21:46:38  (More like OBSERVATION)
21:48:17 * cpressey huh?s
21:54:05  To loop oggs in a web browser: 1) download ogg via XHR, 2) decompress ogg with JS code, 3) duplicate decompressed audio a bunch of times, 4) write that into a data: URL as a PCM .wav, 5) load that into HTML5 Audio
21:55:25 * cpressey reads that
21:55:34  It's only too bad you can't stream like that.
21:57:45  cpressey, what is it you actually do?
21:58:30  elliott: Well, I must say. Xubuntu > Debian when it comes to "just works".
21:58:37  He's a homeless, jobless layabout living off social security and drugs.
21:59:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:01:52  Gregor, do you and him actually hate each other, or is it just a joke?
22:02:14  Phantom_Hoover: we all hate each other here.  especially you.
22:02:38  hope that cleared things up
22:02:38  Really? I only really hate sshc/
22:02:56  Fuck you oerjan, we don't hate each other!
22:03:12  ...i hate people who cannot even follow our hate policy properly
22:03:19  Gregor: I have now read your paper
22:04:30  olsner: Congratulations on your literacy.
22:04:51  thanks :D I'm quite proud of it myself
22:05:19  olsner is an ace at littering
22:05:53  WHAT THE HELL WHY IS FLASH IN XUBUNTU ACTUALLY USING CPU WELL
22:06:01  IT IS NOT RAPING MY CPU
22:06:09  UNLIKE ON REAL HARDWARE
22:06:32  this is virtually unheard of!
22:06:47  It's using like 30% CPU for Youtube. Note: Flash in Gentoo uses like 110% CPU.
22:07:04 -!- augur has joined.
22:07:06  pikhq, Flash isn't that bad on my computer IIRC...
22:07:12  Java is the real criminal
22:07:36  lol, java
22:08:47  I use it occasionally.
22:09:13  java is alright, but surely not *applets*?
22:10:20  Now that we're done hatin' on each other, anybody have an opinion on my crazy JS-data-URL-wtf plan? :P
22:11:36  Gregor: Delicious.
22:12:22  now embed that in MIPS and we're all set
22:12:52  Someone tell me what cpressey actually does.
22:13:06  Phantom_Hoover: Idonno, that's why I made up nonsense :P
22:13:15  No one but cpressey is privy to that information.
22:14:09  I don't know what you do, either...
22:14:30  Gregor studies Ph.D.s
22:14:32  even cpressey doesn't know, the nsa wipe his memory whenever he leaves and reinstate it when he comes back
22:14:40  cpressey does Python
22:14:49  Debbie does Dallas
22:15:07  oerjan: Though leaving him with an imprint that will lead him to have an inexplicable desire to come back the next day.
22:15:25  well that part was obvious
22:15:41  oerjan, are you still an ex-mathematician?
22:15:49  yesh
22:15:49  yes
22:15:51  the other cpressey probably thinks he's discussing esoteric knitting patterns all night
22:16:01  The only way you can stop being an ex-anything is by becoming one again ...
22:16:35  Gregor: That didn't work to get your ex-wife back now, did it?
22:16:53  elliott: No, I became my wife.
22:17:14  Kinky.
22:17:15  kinky.
22:17:17  Also illegal in 13 states.
22:17:20  oerjan: snap
22:17:57  crackle
22:18:11  push
22:18:16  oerjan, so do you sit with a sign saying "will simplify for food"?
22:18:48  no no, it's "will make incomprehensible for food"
22:21:15  "does:
22:21:19  "does"
22:21:26  **"does"
22:21:45  what was the question?
22:21:53  < Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me what cpressey actually does.
22:21:55  i rock
22:21:56  duh
22:23:06  oh, you're a musician?
22:23:21  Phantom_Hoover, you mean what he does for a living: well, I know he complained about python in a work-related context. I think he works as a programmer.
22:24:44   Gregor studies Ph.D.s
22:24:45   cpressey does Python
22:25:07  elliott, he studies people with Ph.D.?
22:25:12  Apparently.
22:25:14  déjà dit
22:25:22  Phoetal Disease
22:25:23  Vorpal: No, he studies Ph.D.s themselves.
22:25:23  olsner: you haven't heard my MED songs!
22:25:33  oerjan: *Phetal
22:25:36  oerjan: good band name.
22:25:37  foetus is a hypercorrection
22:25:53  cpressey: nope!
22:25:54  elliott, ah. The abstract Ph.D.s are quite tricky to study I heard. Takes a lot of skill.
22:26:07  OE KAY
22:26:11  He studies applied Ph.D.s
22:26:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:30  elliott, ah
22:27:37  elliott, that is indeed more tangible
22:27:41   déjà dit
22:27:44  Someone appreciate this :(
22:27:48  Gregor: With a fast enough Javascript engine, you could have a single