00:00:02 pikhq: How's about building xirssi>? 00:00:04 *xirssi? 00:00:45 pikhq: I don't think I ever use the mouse for XChat ... 00:00:54 Gregor: How do you change channel? 00:01:00 Apart from ctrl+pgup/down. 00:01:02 elliott: Ctrl+Pgup/down 00:01:04 Lame 00:01:04 Uhh 00:01:04 That's how 00:01:11 ... not keyboard enough for you? 00:01:22 Want everything to be obscure vim control statements? 00:01:28 says the vim user 00:01:36 Gregor: No, I just don't want it based on an arbitrary list :P 00:01:46 Having to press more keys to get to a channel just because it's further down the alphabet = lame 00:02:20 Lesse, I have twelve channels on four servers plus one query window open. 00:02:22 Assign each of those to a key. 00:02:31 Gregor: No. 00:03:23 Gregor: Well, my 19 windows in irssi each have their own key combo. 00:04:30 What are the packages in Debian to get the version of autotools that works? x_x 00:06:06 pikhq: Feel like seeing if xirssi works? :P 00:07:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:07:37 pikhq_: hai 00:07:40 pikhq_: is that xirssi 00:07:42 if so, screenshot nao 00:07:52 (sleep 2; scrot -bs ~/xirssi.png) 00:08:00 Nope, smuxi. Trying to see if I can get it to not-suck. 00:08:09 pikhq_: WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST XIRSSI :P 00:08:13 It's exactly what you asked for. 00:08:33 And not in the package manager. 00:08:48 pikhq_: Oh noes, you have to compile irssi with --with-glib2 and then compile xirssi 00:08:51 That could take minutes :P 00:09:10 Anyways, it seems that smuxi is very, very unconfigurable. 00:09:18 pikhq_: um 00:09:22 pikhq_: It has pages of config options 00:09:27 Not that I see. 00:09:30 It has page. 00:09:33 pikhq_: wrong 00:09:39 you're clearly opening the wrong menu or something :p 00:09:47 File->Preferences? 00:09:57 I can't even change the font. 00:10:16 pikhq_: Screenshot, try different menus. 00:10:18 etc. 00:10:21 You can. Change the font. 00:10:22 brb. 00:10:22 Oh, wait, yes I can. 00:11:10 Bweheheh. 00:11:23 It's all... Nice-like. 00:11:40 ... OH MY FUCKING GOD IT DOESN'T HANDLE MY IME AT ALL. 00:11:55 THAT SUCKS ASS. 00:12:02 pikhq: set gtk inout 00:12:03 THAT MOTHER-FUCKING SUCKS MOTHER-FUCKING ASS. 00:12:06 input 00:12:17 right click on text box etc 00:12:49 Yes, it's set to the system input method. 00:12:54 And ignoring C-space 00:13:31 Okay, set it to the Scim bridge method and it works. 00:13:53 これが良い。 00:18:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:18:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 00:21:13 Okay then. 00:22:07 This is a much more comfortable experience than irssi. 00:24:16 And if I paste in some RTL text, it'll display reasonably. 00:25:08 العربي 00:25:28 \o/ 00:25:38 looks arabic 00:25:50 'Tis 00:26:00 :D 00:26:51 What does it say? 00:27:10 Arabic. 00:27:25 sneaky 00:28:35 -!- Sasha has joined. 00:31:28 hi Sasha 00:31:46 sup 00:32:25 er 00:32:30 ^ hilarious pun. 00:34:27 Aaaand I get leſs shitty rendering of þings þat aren't exactly going to be in your average monoſpace font. Hooray. 00:40:48 pikhq: Ooh, I'll help you test your new client! :P 00:41:01 pikhq: 洞窟物語! 00:42:34 hm 00:42:41 Sasha: have you been here before? 00:42:44 how do I drain big basins in Minecraft? 00:42:48 i don't recall 00:42:48 yes, elliott 00:42:51 I have 00:43:07 we don't have any minecraft players here. 00:43:11 only fizzie who played for a total of two days 00:43:16 I was here before 00:43:27 you might not know that I was a player of it 00:43:30 but it's damn fun 00:43:51 right, well, asking questions about it here is unlikely to work :p 00:45:14 Gregor: What's the esotericlogs hg again? x_X 00:45:16 *x_x 00:45:52 elliott: PM 00:48:35 Aaand it seems that GUI Emacs sucks even more than my terminal at font rendering. Who would've guessed? 00:48:43 And it can't even use the system IME. 00:48:53 But because it's Emacs, it *of course* has a builtin IME. 00:49:30 pikhq: GUI Emacs is nicer than terminal emacs for like two reasons only :P 00:49:41 And I'm unsure what those reasons are, exactly. 00:50:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_sign#Hobo_code 00:50:13 BEST 00:50:15 THING 00:50:16 EVER 00:54:28 elliott: what 00:54:37 I do believe this is the first time I've ever wanted a tab bar on the left side of the window. 00:54:38 augur: what 00:54:48 why is hobo code the best thing ever 00:54:51 pikhq: tab bar on the left - i.e. buffer list 00:55:10 augur: because (1) i had no idea anything like that existed and i'm not sure it even does here 00:55:13 (2) HOBO SOCIETY 00:55:17 o_o; 00:55:22 augur: think about it 00:55:24 a clump of trees? 00:55:26 maybe hobos planted them 00:55:28 maybe they're a SIGN 00:55:32 yes.. 00:55:32 how could we know???? 00:55:34 elliott: Yuh. 00:55:36 YOU CAN'T KNOW 00:55:44 Oh, wait, I wanted that just the other day. 00:55:50 pikhq: And every other day. 00:55:59 pikhq: NOW HOW DO I MAKE XFWM STOP FOCUSING A WINDOW WHEN I SCROLL IN IT 00:56:15 Beats me. 01:01:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:01:56 Hmm. If writing to $browser/location loads a page, how do you reload? 01:02:09 touch $browser/location? x=$(cat $browser/location); echo "$x" >$browser/location? 01:02:14 (The latter would be super-weird.) 01:04:24 Midori is such a nice browser. 01:04:57 pikhq: Except that it freezes all the time. 01:09:51 Problematic, that. 01:10:25 pikhq: Thus Kayak. 01:11:54 Mmm? 01:14:05 pikhq: Kayak = my web browser! It displays web pages already! 01:18:38 Awesome. 01:18:42 Using Webkit? 01:19:27 pikhq: Yes. 01:19:36 Whooo. 01:19:44 pikhq: It's going to be filesystem'd up the wazoo. If you've heard of uzbl, like that but with less Arch idiocy. 01:19:51 Hmm. 01:19:57 And with a sane UI? 01:20:00 pikhq: Yes. 01:20:09 How're you doing the filesystem thing? 01:20:13 pikhq: Not sure yet :-P 01:20:18 Hmm. If writing to $browser/location loads a page, how do you reload? 01:20:18 touch $browser/location? x=$(cat $browser/location); echo "$x" >$browser/location? 01:20:19 FUSE! 01:20:19 (The latter would be super-weird.) 01:20:21 TOTALLY NEED AN OPINION ON THIS 01:20:32 pikhq: have you ever looked at what you have to do to create a fuse filesystem? 01:20:33 it's awful 01:20:47 touch $browser/location, definitely. 01:20:52 It just makes sense. 01:21:28 FUSE may be awful, but what about the alternatives? 01:21:30 pikhq: True, it does. But then, having a file identifying a browser's location cause the browser to reload just because its modification time changed? What? 01:21:38 Also, I could do it with 9p. linux has support for that. :p 01:21:47 Aaaah, right. 9p. 01:22:04 pikhq: Or I could just have it as regular files... 01:22:16 pikhq: And use gamin. 01:22:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:23:09 pikhq: Opinions welcome :P 01:23:56 Gamin is revolting. 01:24:02 pikhq: Is it? 01:24:07 pikhq: FAM, sure, but gamin? 01:24:09 Compared with, y'know, *just implementing a filesystem*. 01:24:21 pikhq: Yes, but it's also a lot less work for me. :p 01:24:30 It seems alright for file notification stuff, but what you want is an actual, honest-to-god filesystem. 01:24:41 pikhq: bleh! 01:24:58 It could bite you in the ass later if you don't. 01:25:06 pikhq: How? :p 01:25:13 I dunno! 01:25:49 I dunno if filesystems are right... how do you treat it if the server's down? 01:26:01 * elliott tries to understand wtf Mathnerd314 is trying to say 01:26:15 * elliott suspects he misunderstands the plan... 01:26:20 pikhq: I'd *like* to expose the entire DOM as a filesystem... but that sounds like hell to do with webkit. 01:26:34 filesystem... something like /http/google.com/ goes to http://google.com 01:26:51 Mathnerd314: yeah no not that. 01:27:45 elliott: Maybe you could expose the FUSE API to WebKit's JavaScript and write the FS in JS >: ) 01:27:55 elliott: yay, just lost all interest in your project. 01:28:03 pikhq: here's all the shit you have to do to get just a plain in-memory filesystem with fusepy: http://code.google.com/p/fusepy/source/browse/trunk/memory.py 01:28:25 Mathnerd314: so wait, first you said "Hey, that won't work." and then I said "Well, I'm not doing that." and then you said "Oh, your project sucks then>" 01:28:27 *then." 01:28:36 Mathnerd314: see the mindboggling inconsistency here? 01:28:55 I just want filesystems to be more like websites, rather than the opposite 01:29:17 that sounds like the worst idea i've ever heard. 01:29:22 anyway i'm not exposing websites as filesystems 01:29:25 and i never proposed that 01:29:28 or said anything related to that 01:29:34 elliott: So, your complaint is that you need to... Handle filesystem operations? 01:29:43 pikhq: Yup. Pretty much. 01:29:52 I'm sorry that filesystems suck. 01:30:19 pikhq: Oh yeah, and that filesystem DOESN'T EVEN SUPPORT DIRECTORIES. 01:31:14 pikhq: I am sort of tempted just to have $(browser)/ctl where you can send commands, and then have the other files be read-only. :/ 01:32:22 elliott: sounds like a web page :p 01:32:39 Mathnerd314: What? 01:33:23 most web pages are read-only 01:33:54 Wow, yeah, because I have an informational file with some bytes in it that's totally like a web page. 01:34:03 Are you sure you understand what I'm trying to do here...? 01:34:04 yeah... :p 01:34:18 You seem to not have the foggiest clue. 01:34:25 * Mathnerd314 reads the log 01:34:27 elliott: That would make FUSE significantly easier. 01:34:40 pikhq: It would. It'd also be a copout, but. 01:34:51 pikhq: OTOH, it would be obvious what reloading would be. "reload". 01:34:58 pikhq: Or even "go (current url)"; at least that's a proper verb. 01:35:14 pikhq: OTOOH (other other hand), it'd be like uzbl and uzbl sucks. :) 01:35:21 Heh. 01:35:56 pikhq: I know, I'll implement something else to procrastinate a bit. 01:37:56 Victory. 01:41:42 pikhq: It appears that my kernel has 9p support. 01:43:29 pikhq: http://bitbucket.org/f2f/py9p/src/tip/examples/simplesrv.py otoh, it looks more complicated than fuse :p 01:43:36 At least that api. 01:46:48 pikhq: Woo, it can now embed into other windows (*cough* tabbed(1) *cough*) 01:49:19 ok, I still stand by my earlier statements as being relevant. 01:50:18 not really 01:50:25 it's just a control interface exposed via fs 01:50:27 which is age-old 01:51:00 but there's nothing to control, except the dom and various commands 01:51:34 unless you want a simultaneous GUI along with the fs 01:51:34 ... 01:51:45 You really seem to be missing the point. 01:51:52 Mathnerd314: consider everything you click on in the process of using the browser 01:51:55 that's an element of control 01:51:58 usually it is exposed via gui widgets 01:52:05 there is no reason it cannot be exposed via a logically-organised file system. 01:52:49 ok... explain how url completion works in this fs 01:53:34 Mathnerd314: ... 01:53:46 Mathnerd314: ok, i give up, learn the unix philosophy and plan 9 and then ask again :) 01:54:04 Mathnerd314: (this is not an admission of my design's inferiority, any more than trying to explain a certain programming language feature to someone who hasn't programmed before is) 01:54:13 i might explain later when i'm not busy coding 02:00:19 pikhq: WOO MY WINDOW HAS AN ICON 02:01:09 even more » 02:01:12 --google.co.uk 02:01:14 wat 02:01:23 ok, I fail to see how a filesystem would be smaller than curl + a parser 02:03:56 Mathnerd314: ...??? 02:04:16 Mathnerd314: you *really* need to read up on the unix/plan9 philosophy before trying to understand this, nothing that you're saying has any relevance to the design 02:05:09 ok, wait an hour-2 while I regain my sanity 02:05:15 lawl 02:05:57 pikhq: Quick, what user agent should I send? 02:06:43 pikhq: whatever it is, it probably has to start with Mozilla/5.0 :p 02:07:13 Mozilla/13.5 (Microsoft Brows-o-mat .NET# 2022) 02:07:47 * elliott tries to figure out what makes Google realise I'm not a stupid browser 02:08:01 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-gb) AppleWebKit/531.2+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0 Safari/531.2+ 02:08:03 is the default 02:08:39 i don't like the idea of exposing all that 02:09:01 [Default value: "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; c) AppleWebKit/531.2+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/531.2+"]] 02:09:04 *[[ 02:09:08 what, even on x86? :p 02:11:14 Gregor: Wow. Google actually looks for Mozilla/5.0. 02:11:19 Despite EVERY BROWSER EVER claiming to be Mozilla/5.0. 02:11:36 Bots and downloaders don't. 02:11:40 Well, yeah. 02:11:45 So that's a good way of detecting that the client /is/ a browser. 02:11:46 Gregor: But it just gives you a slightly less rich UI if you don't. 02:11:57 Gregor: Specifically, "more" is a link, not a JS dropdown menu. 02:11:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.11/20101012113537]). 02:12:06 Gregor: Woot, now I get to figure out what qualifies me for the GOOGLE INSTANT LOVE 02:12:45 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US) AppleWebKit/534.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/7.0.517.41 Safari/534.7 02:13:33 Gregor: ...and gives me an older version of the homepage 02:13:40 Gregor: Yeah, but I want to not have to embed the version like that. 02:14:03 self.webkit_settings.props.user_agent = 'Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit KHTML Gecko Chrome Safari' 02:14:04 THAT'S GOTTA WORK 02:14:04 You should just find all the foo/bar strings of every major browser and paste them together. 02:14:12 Gregor: Way ahead of you :P 02:14:30 GOOGLE GIVE ME YOUR MOTHERFUCKING NEW LOGO 02:14:36 Firefox does admit to being Firefox. Stupidly, Iceweasel also admits to being Iceweasel. 02:14:58 I like how user agents are fucked up. 02:15:04 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.12) Gecko/20100911 Iceweasel/3.5.12 (like Firefox/3.5.12) <-- a lot like it, in fact. 02:15:27 What with it being the same software with s/Firefox/Iceweasel/g 02:15:30 Gregor: I have a proposal. 02:15:50 I'm afraid. 02:16:04 I accidentally made WebSplat work on Opera. Now it works everywhere :( 02:16:20 Gregor: Any modern, standards-compliant browser -- baseline basically being IE9 in standards compliance mode -- can have the string "sane", with word boundaries around it, in their User-Agent. If a website detects "sane", it shall not detect anything else beyond that. 02:16:25 Gregor: Thus 02:16:28 User-Agent: Safari (sane) 02:16:32 User-Agent: sane Firefox 02:16:33 etc. 02:16:48 Gregor: ...and when the next generation of web standards comes out, know what that'll be? 02:16:50 Gregor: sane/2! 02:17:01 User-Agent: Safari (sane (compatible; sane/2)) 02:17:03 WOOOOOOO 02:17:09 Opera will claim to be sane immediately. 02:17:19 Then if you want to support Opera properly, you'll have to check for sane-but-not-Opera. 02:17:23 :D 02:17:35 Gregor: Another rule: Opera may not identify as sane. 02:17:36 Plus, IE9 can only report whether it's sane or not AFTER it's downloaded the file, making the user-agent worthless. 02:17:42 :-D 02:17:51 Gregor: Congrats, you have made sanity insane. 02:18:19 Gregor: LOL 02:18:39 Gregor: when the stack overflow guys found out, via reddit, that their site would willingly copy out a script tag onto their careers side, constituting a massive XSS hole: 02:18:40 [[Um, thanks? No one is perfect. Would kindly ask for a white-hat approach in the future and not a firehose from reddit: team@stackoverflow.com]] 02:18:46 Gee, guys, it's not easy to prevent against XSS. 02:18:49 You have to escape strings and shit. 02:19:05 One of our company's cofounders wrote a long article on how to name variables so that it's obvious when it's safe to inline things in a page or not. 02:19:08 Gawd. 02:19:11 Give us a break. 02:21:05 self.webkit_settings.props.user_agent = 'Kayak Mozilla/6.0 WebKit/9.9.9.9 Safari/600' 02:21:07 Gregor: IT WORKS 02:22:38 Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; WebKit) 02:22:39 Much better. 02:23:20 "You are currently viewing Google Mail in basic HTML.   Upgrade your browser for faster, better Google Mail" 02:23:22 FUCK YOU IN THE FUCK HOLE 02:24:30 elliott: You know you want to send the user agent *properly*. 02:24:38 elliott: Kayak (WebKit) 02:24:43 pikhq: Dude, I fucking did. 02:24:45 pikhq: It breaks shit. 02:24:54 Fuck them. 02:24:57 pikhq: Google thinks I'm running Browser: The 1995 Edition, gmail doesn't let me in... 02:25:00 pikhq: well it does 02:25:04 but only to basic html 02:25:12 pikhq: tl;dr no, i'm not sending a reasonable user agent :P 02:25:25 Bug report. Google should know better than user agent scanning. 02:25:32 pikhq: Yes, but they don't. 02:25:40 pikhq: And half the shitty-fucking web doesn't either. 02:25:47 pikhq: Google preach against user agent sniffing but do it anyway. 02:25:49 This is nothing new. 02:25:52 Motherfucking hell. 02:27:44 OH JOY NOW IT LETS ME IN 02:27:56 Kayak (Mozilla/5.0 X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-gb AppleWebKit/531.2+ KHTML, like Gecko Version/5.0 Safari/531.2+) 02:28:23 Could you make it have any more ridiculous claims? 02:28:57 pikhq: (Dillo) 02:29:05 pikhq: AmigaOS/3 02:29:15 pikhq: SPARC, like PDP-11 02:29:26 I dunno, add Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; X11; compatible) 02:29:37 Lynx 02:29:39 Yes, it claims to be Mozilla 4 compatible IE6 compatible on X11. 02:29:40 :D 02:29:50 Aqua, like X11 02:29:55 :D 02:30:31 Hell, stick every one of these strings in there. 02:30:36 http://www.user-agents.org/ 02:30:47 And this tea sucks. :( 02:30:58 pikhq: I wonder what the fuck Version/5.0 even MEANS 02:31:17 elliott: Netscape 5.0. Honest. 02:31:27 pikhq: No, that's Mozilla/5.0. 02:31:30 Oh. 02:31:33 Version/5.0? 02:31:36 What the *fuck*? 02:33:35 pikhq: It's Version, version 5.0. 02:34:30 Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; KHTML, like Gecko; WebKit/531.2+; Safari/531.2+) 02:34:33 This better motherfucking work. 02:34:51 pikhq: IT APPEARS WE ARE NOT COOL ENOUGH TO GET THE FANCY NEW GOOGLE IMAGES 02:35:28 http://www.user-agents.org/ <-- this is amazingly terribly designed 02:35:34 Yup. 02:35:44 pikhq: I can probably get rid of "KHTML, like Gecko", right? 02:35:50 "Gecko" should do fine. 02:36:10 No. That is to convince some stupid things that you're using KHTML. 02:36:23 pikhq: No website sniffs for KHTML. I *refuse* to believe that. 02:36:35 I am sure they exist. 02:36:41 pikhq: There are also IE-only websites. 02:37:13 That's why you add Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; X11; compatible) 02:37:14 :P 02:37:35 pikhq: that makes websites rather reasonably give me the IE-sucks-compatibility page :p 02:37:40 :P 02:38:20 pikhq: Version/5.0 makes google images work 02:38:21 I am not joking 02:38:29 Version/5.0. 02:38:32 Not Mozilla/5.0 02:38:34 Version. 02:38:36 The hell. 02:38:37 pikhq: Yes. 02:38:50 pikhq: You also need Mozilla/5.0 and Gecko or WebKit or whatever to get google's frontpage at the maximal version. 02:39:00 Urgh. 02:39:16 Couldn't it just... Check for the needed functions? 02:39:28 pikhq: l o l 02:40:21 pikhq: Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; Gecko; WebKit/531.2+; Safari/531.2+; Version/5.0) 02:40:24 This appears to do the trick. 02:41:14 Ugh. 02:41:19 pikhq: Getting rid of the Safari version breaks things though; sweet! 02:42:15 From this I can conclude that we need to commit genocide against morons. 02:42:26 They are the primary reason for everything sucking. 02:43:46 pikhq: Is there a fancy Buddhist term for becoming one with everything? 02:44:01 None that I know of. 02:44:16 Though I know very little about Buddhist terminology. 02:44:23 pikhq: But I need one. It's going to be the name of the function that sets the user agent to claim to be everything. :) 02:44:24 Achieving Nirvana. 02:44:33 Sasha: No shit :P 02:44:44 Sasha: I mean a fancy term for the act of achieving Nirvana. 02:44:50 un 02:44:57 hù'kiȳô is Japanese for Buddhism! That's about as far as I go. 02:45:08 Grand Harmonization? 02:45:14 (bukkyō)[仏教] 02:45:20 Sasha: bah! 02:45:31 can't they just have a word for it like 02:45:34 umstajeridahava 02:45:39 i want my function to be incomprehensibly-named 02:45:42 for it does an incomprehensible thing 02:45:54 * elliott notes that Sasha definitely hasn't been in here before with that nick 02:46:03 Bodhi. 02:46:26 Bodhi? I know someone IRL with that name... 02:46:37 huh 02:46:47 it's sanskrit for enlightenment or something 02:46:48 * elliott gets the feeling that Sasha is a buddhist :p 02:46:58 Ah. 02:47:10 I dunno exactly, my sanskrit's a wee bit rusty. 02:47:13 nah, elliott 02:47:18 I'm a devout atheist 02:47:28 nobody's ever said bodhi here either, so presumably Sasha was referring to my query 02:47:28 My sanskrit consists of a single loanword in Japanese! 02:48:11 (馬鹿)[hàka]{baka} 02:48:12 I was. Bodhi is the word you want, maybe. 02:48:15 -!- Sasha has changed nick to Gluttony. 02:48:28 maybe this is the nick you're more familiar with? 02:48:34 Not really. 02:48:52 elliott might be 02:49:00 Can't even recall any regulars from Phoenix, AZ. 02:49:04 * elliott greps 02:49:06 I was one of the folks that migrated in from an XKCD channel. 02:49:15 Gluttony: nope. 02:49:20 I can easily name all of those ones though. 02:49:29 coulda sworn I was. 02:49:30 Because I have them on my HIT LIST because I'm EVIL and CRUEL to EVERYONE. 02:49:32 Believe the hype. 02:49:48 Yeah, Branan, Caitlin.. one other, and me. 02:49:52 19:42:15 --- join: Chachi (~WHAT@97-124-45-71.phnx.qwest.net) joined #esoteric 02:50:03 That matches the whois. 02:50:06 One other was Decabra. 02:50:10 There was also some CatSandwich guy. 02:50:16 oh, Chachi 02:50:19 yoop 02:50:24 I've driven them all away because of my IMMENSE POWERS OF ASSHOLERY apparently 02:50:24 -!- Gluttony has changed nick to Chachi. 02:50:24 Chachismo 02:50:30 there 02:50:34 elliott: Congratulations! 02:50:36 wasn't sure what nick I was using 02:50:41 -!- Chachi has changed nick to Sasha. 02:50:49 Gregor: I know, right?! 02:50:49 this is the one I like the best, though. 02:51:09 Gluttony's another common one, it's what sin I embody. 02:51:10 pikhq: http://sprunge.us/HhYA kayak(1) 0.00000001 02:51:22 A friend of mine made the UNIX interface for XKCD ... I should get him to draw XKCD-hat-guy as a WebSplat character and have him put that in as an April fools joke :P 02:51:28 pikhq: It can view Google and go from there. It does nothing else. 02:51:33 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:35 Gregor: I think you should disown your friend forever. :p 02:51:47 Oh it's chromakode 02:52:25 Uhh, yes? As opposed to who? 02:52:36 Gregor: Anyone else who likes xkcd in any way :P 02:52:50 pikhq: DUDE BEHOLD MY SOFTWARE ENGINEERING SKILLZ 02:52:54 XKCD is occasionally sufferable! 02:52:59 pikhq: I CALLED LIKE *SEVEN* API FUNCTIONS 02:53:01 it's pretty okay 02:53:05 Gregor: Maybe a year or two ago. 02:53:12 I like the people that read it more than it, usually 02:53:16 I am pretty sure I recall... three mediocre comics in the last year. 02:53:23 Sasha: that's funny, the people who read it are generally worse :p 02:53:48 Hmm, hey, xkcd recently went over 50% crappy. 02:53:55 (400 being around the time it started going really downhill) 02:54:01 *celebration* 02:54:14 elliott: That appears to be a very good argument for higher-level languages right there. 02:54:28 pikhq: NOW ANY MORON CAN MAKE A TERRIBLE BROWSER 02:54:39 pikhq: If you look carefully that thing even has XEmbed support. 02:54:51 pikhq: You have to put the window ID as an argument to Browser though :P 02:54:53 elliott: Sure, it's more complex than it should be, buuuut that's still not bad. 02:55:03 pikhq: Now switch to it. 02:55:08 Bah. 02:55:24 pikhq: Just because it doesn't support tabs, windows, URL entry, or keyboard bindings! 02:56:17 whoops that code doesn't run :D 02:56:23 elliott: Eh. Some of them are rather good. 02:56:27 achieve_nirvana needs a self argument 02:56:30 Sasha: the people or the comics? 02:56:34 yes 02:57:02 Sasha: How apropos! http://xkcd.com/169/ 02:57:39 (Is that actually irony? Dare I say so for fear of the hordes of reddit users itching for a chance to quote Alanis Morisette?) 02:57:49 *Morissette, google tells me 02:57:53 er, it's a completely fine response 02:57:57 I meant both. 02:58:05 You asked an OR question 02:58:17 OR in natural language = either list elements, or XOR 02:58:23 ah 02:58:35 Natlangs are rather screwy 02:58:49 so, to restate my answer, both. 02:58:59 Sure they are, but only when you deliberately go out of your way to override your brain's natural processing of them :P 02:58:59 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 02:59:12 Hah, natural processing 02:59:14 what a joke 02:59:36 if I was to allow it to just do its own thing, there would me much fornication and little rejoicing 02:59:45 instead of little fornication and much rejoicing 03:00:03 "Ooh, opposite gender. Allow them to fornicate with you." 03:00:21 Why so picky? 03:00:55 Sasha: You'd also have to fornicate with every member of the opposite gender :P 03:01:22 Exactly. And some of them aren't so nice-looking. 03:01:42 which is my hardwiring telling me that they have relatively little disease 03:01:42 orly :P 03:01:55 yop 03:02:09 And if we go past every layer of hardwiring, turns out we don't need to fornicate at all! 03:02:17 "Ooh, same (biological) class? Allow them to fornicate with you." 03:02:17 psychology is a funny thing. 03:02:19 pikhq: Apparently my browser supports HTML 5 video except it only plays the audio. 03:02:21 pikhq: SWEET 03:02:43 Sweet. 03:02:58 elliott: Uhh, maybe it just doesn't support the particular codec. 03:03:11 Oh, your browser as in the browser you're hacking together :P 03:03:13 Gregor: I've tried it on like three examples. 03:03:18 Gregor: My browser is currently WebKit. 03:03:21 So if WebKit does it it should work :P 03:03:55 Idonno, does it actually ship in source form with H.264 support, or does it require some lower-level system support? 03:03:55 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:04:11 Gregor: Not really picky, so much as societal norms. I'm still not sure of my own sexual orientation. 03:04:29 i love how there's this idea that you have to FIGURE OUT YOUR RIGIDLY-DEFINED SEXUAL ORIENTATION 03:04:33 -!- wareya has joined. 03:04:43 elliott: SPEAKING OF SOCIETAL NORMS HYUK 03:04:44 "Do I find this person attractive? Like do I *really*? But my sexual orientation says I don't! WHAAT" 03:04:57 Idonno, does it actually ship in source form with H.264 support, or does it require some lower-level system support? 03:05:03 p. sure i have all the evil things necessary to play h.264 but 03:05:05 i'll google theora 03:05:09 BECAUSE THEORA IS SO AWESOME RIGHT? 03:05:18 elliott: See: Unsure of own sexual orientation 03:05:18 Well it certainly doesn't ship with theora support. 03:05:23 I'll try anything once. 03:05:28 Sasha: Are you unsure of who you're attracted to? 03:05:34 yeah 03:05:36 If not, who the fuck cares? If so, your brain is broken. 03:05:39 Sasha: No, I mean, individual people. 03:05:43 yes! 03:06:04 Sasha: Here's a hint: sexual orientation is nowhere near as well-defined as you may think it is. 03:06:10 I refuse to believe that you can see someone and not have an impulse reaction as to their attractiveness because that's, like, one of the most fundamental snap-decisions the brain makes. 03:06:14 Like most everything, shit is *complicated*. 03:06:23 Gregor: What support does it ship with then? >_< 03:06:38 pikhq: I am aware of this 03:06:43 elliott: Probably only support for relying on the underlying OS to support shit :) 03:06:52 Gregor: I LIKE HOW DUCKS 03:07:04 Okay that plays. 03:07:07 WebM hooray :P 03:07:09 elliott: I'm diagnosed with some autism. 03:07:25 WebM for the winses! 03:07:27 so, in a way, my brain could be considered "broken" 03:07:37 Sasha: You and every other fucking person on the internet. 03:07:51 I have not been diagnosed with and do not have autism. 03:07:52 I've got a paper saying so 03:07:55 So have I! 03:08:00 Fun fact: Shit means nothing. 03:08:01 I have no such paper. 03:08:05 from a registered psychologist with an MD 03:08:10 Sasha: OMG ME TOO 03:08:13 WE'RE LIKE SOULMATES 03:08:17 okay 03:08:27 As we all know, psychology is the most reliable, scientific and well-grounded profession on earth. 03:08:33 elliott: You're so awesome sometimes :P 03:08:36 And autism the least vaguely-defined mental illness in the universe. 03:08:42 Gregor: It's because I have autism 03:08:46 X-D 03:09:07 also a couple of really nasty things 03:09:41 Sasha: In fact, they thought I had so much autism that I should be put in a mental unit for almost a year! 03:09:43 in addition to this, I tend to supress emotions. It's second nature. 03:09:45 * elliott legally certified insane person 03:09:55 legally-certified 03:10:02 because insane is a lawyer-term 03:10:06 Yes. 03:10:07 Yes it is. 03:10:22 Or at least they certainly threatened to make it one. 03:10:28 I totally need a certificate 03:10:31 I could frame it 03:11:08 Sasha: The fundamental problem with just going and saying "well, I'm autistic" is this: it's a valid excuse for *hardly anything*. 03:11:28 Shame, too, it'd be handy to have an easy excuse for everything. 03:11:32 I am mentioning it as a cause for an effect. 03:11:47 I never use it as an excuse. 03:11:50 when i was younger i would kick up fits whenever anything didn't go my way because i was a terrible person and then just blamed it on assburgers 03:11:55 Not parsing it that way. Actually... I'm parsing it as an almost non-sequitur. 03:11:58 problem was i believed it 03:12:26 The effect being, not making snap judgements about the attractiveness of people. 03:12:36 That is not a characteristic of autism. 03:12:37 At all. 03:12:43 Sasha: Being autistic does not in any way change how your boner works. 03:12:49 hrm, I was told it was. 03:12:53 It's not even your, ahem, boner :P 03:12:58 It's mental 03:12:59 I'm sure even asexual people do it. 03:13:06 They make the snap decision, they just don't feel any compulsion to act on it or anything. 03:13:24 Pretty sure it's one of the most basic recognitions the brain makes. 03:13:31 However, I lead with my head instead of my heart. Emotion tends to get in the way of reasoning and logic. 03:13:32 elliott: Yeah yeah yeah. 03:13:40 Sasha: omg ur like mr. spak 03:13:51 * Sasha rolls eyes 03:14:02 Sasha: Currently, I'm tempted to say you're either asexual or full of shit. 03:14:26 Well, seeing as how the emotions I usually feel are horrible terrible things as defined by society, I tend not to express them. 03:14:37 pikhq: Probably the first one. 03:14:44 "I'm a paedophile!" 03:14:46 Oh #esoteric . 03:14:50 Ohhhhh #esoteric . 03:14:52 "But I can't express my inner paedophilia ;__;" 03:15:02 Gregor: Heheheh. 03:15:10 Oh! #esoteric! Don't stop! Ohh! 03:15:10 But, you can make your own judgements. I won't tell you what to think. 03:15:12 --Gregor's next, untyped line 03:15:14 elliott: You know full well it's pædophilia. 03:15:22 pikhq: Fuck you :P 03:15:37 Wikipædophelia 03:15:38 No, elliott, it's more like severe anger and depression. 03:15:55 Your search - wikipædophelia - did not match any documents. D-8 03:16:11 Gregor: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Wikipedophile 03:16:18 Wikipædophilia ← There. 03:16:30 I can spellllllll 8-D 03:16:36 Gregor: ...oh man xD 03:16:38 You fail 03:17:06 I think that not being able to spell "pædophilia" counts as a win :P 03:17:12 Þou fail'ſt ſo hard. 03:17:25 "I hate paedophaeila so much, I can't even type it!" 03:17:27 the a-e digraph looks rather silly in monospace 03:17:30 "Why, does it disgust you that much?" 03:17:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:17:34 "No, I'm just terrible at spelling it." 03:17:50 Sasha: Ligature, not digraph, and that's your problem, isn't it? 03:17:54 however, I like the thorn and long-s. 03:18:10 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:18:11 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:So_cool.jpg <-- in a situation with any relevance whatsoever, this would be hilarious. 03:18:29 pikhq: Still looks silly, like an a and an e smooshed together. 03:18:38 Gregor: Yeah referencing xkcd irl is hilarious :p 03:18:45 Did someone in here have a question about whether or not Enhanced CWEB can be used to create webpages? 03:18:46 elliott: ... referencing XKCD? 03:18:55 Gregor: I *envy* your xkcd ignorance. 03:18:58 Gregor: http://xkcd.com/285/ 03:19:00 Saſha: Problem þine. 03:19:12 Gregor: Also: click any "citation needed" link on Wikipedia. See that comic. 03:19:31 elliott: As with reddit and digg, I use people on the web as my XKCD filter :P 03:19:43 pikhq: It is. I am pointing out an opinion. 03:19:44 It's a good one. 03:19:55 Gregor: But it is also ridiculously super-famous :P 03:20:04 To the point of being internet-iconic. 03:20:04 elliott: That [citation needed] picture is from a #xkcd meetup, I'm pretty sure. 03:20:25 pikhq: WORST MEETUP EVER 03:20:25 elliott: I've PROBABLY seen it before. 03:20:26 or even a normal xkcd meetup 03:20:33 not necessarily the channel 03:20:44 Mayhaps. 03:20:46 elliott: I think my terrible memory is a blessing :P 03:21:04 hm 03:21:11 pikhq: WANNA WRITE FUSE CODE? 03:21:12 I need to start using fun letters too. 03:21:27 I think I'm adopting long s into my romanisation scheme for no good reason. Other than that it looks nice. 03:21:34 ■ µ█x☼Θ⌐æô! 03:21:35 elliott: YOU SHOULD EXPOSE THE FUSE API TO JAVASCRIPT THEN WRITE THE *kills self* 03:21:44 Gregor: I TOTALLY AGREE 03:21:52 pikhq: Also ł 03:22:03 elliott: oh yeah, I feel much saner now. maybe you could try to re-explain, if you're not too busy coding 03:22:09 koriȳa ſô miſeteru ne. 03:22:16 Mathnerd314: sarcasm? :p 03:22:27 elliott: no, truth 03:22:51 {こりゃそう見せてるね。}[korya sō miseteru ne.] 03:23:26 Mathnerd314: tl;dr there's webkit in a window. The browser exposes a directory on the filesystem tree. It has files like "location", containing the current browser location, and the like. (You can imagine the fully-extended form of this, a "dom" directory, containing a representation of the entire document as an FS tree -- but that's a bit ridiculous). 03:23:32 Mathnerd314: It can be controlled by writing to these files. 03:23:47 Mathnerd314: For example, "echo http://reddit.com/ >location" would make the browser load reddit.com. 03:24:13 elliott: And ı? 03:24:18 pikhq: No. 03:24:21 That is ugly. 03:24:27 pikhq: Now include ł :P 03:24:33 Ɨ 03:24:40 fail 03:25:14 pikhq: How much will you charge to convert a simple Python program into C? >:) 03:25:17 * elliott evil 03:25:17 (if texting while driving is as bad for you as drinking while driving, and you shouldn't drink and derive, then texting (IRC-ing) and simultaneously following the derivation of the Mean Value Theorem is bad) 03:25:38 elliott: Altcode? 03:25:50 Sasha: I don't use Windows. 03:25:51 elliott: All the money. 03:25:53 So I can't tell you. 03:26:04 pikhq: It's only 44 lines! 03:26:09 What is the point of a romanisation scheme that uses unicode? 03:26:10 Oh, right. Someone that doesn't like games. 03:26:24 Sasha: I play plenty of games. (well, not right now, but that's for other reasons) 03:26:33 On Linux? 03:26:48 zzo38: Better matching the native orthography. 03:26:50 Sasha: Of course most of them are either native, work in Wine (which supports many things perfectly), or can be easily run in a VM at a pinch. 03:26:56 eh 03:27:06 whenever I attempt using Wine, my box fails. 03:27:09 Sasha: Also: seemingly unlike you, I value other things above the absolute easiest game experience, such as being able to program without wanting to kill myself. 03:27:19 zzo38: Especially handy for demonstrating oddities of the orthography while speaking to an audience that's not going to learn a completely new script. 03:27:20 It hasn't got enough memory. 03:27:27 I've never understood how some people put being able to game in one or two clicks above EVERYTHING ELSE EVER. 03:27:41 elliott: Just because I am not a computer programmer means very little 03:27:45 elliott: so, an near as I can follow, you're writing something of a CLI for the web? 03:27:52 ypu could say I am a polymath 03:27:54 s/web/browser/ 03:27:56 you* 03:27:59 Sasha: you *do* realise this channel is about programming languages? 03:28:07 yep 03:28:13 I came here to learn more about them 03:28:21 Sasha: You do realise it's about *esoteric* programming languages? :P 03:28:27 Your education here will be ... skewed. 03:28:32 Mathnerd314: Something like that... except the filesystem metaphor goes deeper than just a CLI. 03:28:42 elliott: Sure. 03:28:44 Mathnerd314: A filesystem represents a piece of information, a resource. 03:28:46 zzo38: How else could I discuss tiȳônnhų, tàkutenn, or hanntàkutenn with someone who can't read Japanese? 03:28:52 I mean, hell, I don't learn useful natlangs. 03:28:55 Mathnerd314: Consider a filesystem tree like a programming language namespace. 03:29:19 pikhq: We're talking the SIMPLEST python script here 03:29:21 pikhq: :| 03:29:23 There was a period there where I was fluent in /ESPERANTO/ 03:29:38 a few people here know esperanto 03:29:39 i think pikhq does 03:29:45 Sasha: "was fluent"? Meþinkſt þou ſuckeſt. 03:29:54 ...but yeah, you cannot be ex-fluent 03:29:57 elliott: Jes, sed mia Esperanto malbonas. 03:30:02 fluency is pretty much defined as the point where you have it internalised :P 03:30:24 pikhq: Mine isn't so great either, I rarely use it. 03:31:41 でも僕の日本語が良い!{tèmo, hòku no nihonnkò kà î.}[demo, boku no nihongo ga ii.](But, my Japanese is good.) 03:31:44 I'm also currently learning German as part of school and am /okay/ at ASL, but not quite fluent. 03:31:52 pikhq: Thought: Arch is for people who want to pretend to understand and follow the minimalist Unix philosophy without actually having to give up any of their stupid trinkets. 03:32:03 elliott: Possibly. 03:32:11 elliott: Is it? Maybe it is. 03:32:25 zzo38: You'd be proud of me, I'm making a web browser. 03:32:48 hmm. Would the German word for Japanese be "Japanisch"? 03:32:56 so what has everyone who knew Esperanto switched to instead? Lojban? 03:33:03 Sasha: You tell me. 03:33:10 elliott: O, you are? Are you using a existing system or making a new one? 03:33:11 Probably. 03:33:19 zzo38: Well, uh, I'm using WebKit, but that's it. 03:33:21 Mathnerd314: Esperanto is still the most viable auxlang. 03:33:44 Mein Japanisch kennen bist null. 03:33:46 Mathnerd314: Mostly by merit of being the only one that's viable. 03:33:47 (Currently I use Vonkeror it is a existing Mozilla system, it is not best though) 03:33:48 zzo38: I could, theoretically, write my own rendering engine, but considering it's almost a hundred thousand lines of code to write one that works with most web pages properly, that sounds un-fun. 03:34:01 But yeah, I'm writing everything but the rendering engine. 03:34:07 pikhq: DUDE BOJLAN 03:34:07 pikhq: It's not so widely used any more. 03:34:09 *JOLBAN 03:34:18 *BOLJAN 03:34:21 *BOLAJN 03:34:23 3rd time's the charm? 03:34:27 LOJBAN? 03:34:29 *FRTKLD 03:34:36 so maybe interest in auxlangs just died down generally as people learn English? 03:34:36 *KRAUTROCK 03:34:46 Sasha: There exist *no other* auxlangs with any hint of popularity, though. 03:34:47 Mathnerd314: Seems that way. 03:34:58 pikhq: Lojban. 03:35:07 Mathnerd314: Actually, interest in auxlangs died down when Hitler killed 3/4ths of the speakers. 03:35:34 I am also wondering if ASL would be considered an auxlang. 03:35:36 what? really? /me reads Wikipedia 03:35:42 Sasha: Not really. 03:35:55 Best is a completely different way, using only an existing Javascript engine and writing render engine it doesn't have to work correctly, as long as web pages are workable. The JavaScript DOM also has to be completely different; image loading must be different; etc. And there must be a command-line access of services. 03:35:58 It's derived from a few other SLs, IIRC 03:36:14 Mathnerd314: At the time, a very large number of Esperanto speakers were in Poland. And Jewish. 03:36:21 zzo38: THINGS ARE NOT BETTER MERELY BY VIRTUE OF BEING DIFFERENT FROM OTHER EXISTING THINIGS 03:36:22 *THINGS 03:36:29 ESPECIALLY WHEN NOTHING ELSE WORKS WITH THE DIFFERENT THING 03:37:21 pikhq: I guess I can see. 03:37:24 Mathnerd314: In particular, Lidia Zamenhof (Lidja ZAMENHOF) 03:37:48 Is it Esperanto policy to uppercase SURNAMES? 03:37:56 nope 03:37:56 Sasha: Most languages are that way. 03:38:15 seems as if he was uppercasing to emphasize 03:38:16 pikhq: are you sure you wanted to address that to Sasha? 03:38:19 pikhq: True 03:38:22 Sasha: i doubt it 03:38:31 Sasha: "Derived from other languages". 03:38:42 all these highlights 03:38:49 Sasha 03:38:51 all this bright glaring orange on my screen 03:38:56 SASHA 03:38:59 SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA 03:39:05 YOUR FACE 03:39:13 HAS A CHARISMA MODIFIER OF -6 03:39:33 elliott: The uppercasing of surnames is somewhat more common in Esperanto than elsewhere. It's actually a convention in Latin-script-using languages where the surname might be ambiguous. 03:39:46 Sasha: that's what she said 03:41:03 man, I thought freenode was safe from shouting. add to ignore list... 03:41:25 Mathnerd314: seriously? 03:41:33 I am developing an a priori language, with an individual system of syntax and grammar. 03:41:40 Sasha: YOU SHOUTED "I" THERE 03:41:43 elliott: It's *especially* useful for Japanese names, where the actual surname order *might be either way* when written in English. 03:41:50 Its method of indicating names is a special punctuation mark. 03:41:52 pikhq: YOU SHOUTED THAT SURNAME BACK THER 03:41:53 *THERE 03:41:59 pikhq: SHAME 03:41:59 elliott: i can't hear you :p 03:42:01 s/Japanese/East Asian/ 03:42:01 SHAME ON YOU 03:42:20 elliott: I am merely using some English conventions in my typings 03:42:22 For instance, it's KIM Jong-Il but Nobuo UEMATSU. 03:42:48 which does not help folks like me. I write in allcaps. 03:43:04 ME TOO 03:43:06 CONSTANTLY 03:43:09 I ALSO THINK IN ALLCAPS 03:43:44 elliott: do you consume some sort of drug? 03:43:51 No, my manual handwriting is allcaps. It's a reflex on keyboards to use the shift key. 03:43:56 Mathnerd314: LIFE, BABY 03:44:07 I consume some powerful antidepressants. Does that count? 03:44:13 Sasha: That's fairly ridiculous. 03:44:26 Sasha: he asked me 03:44:28 Though my manual handwriting has long ceased to be readable by others, so who am I to judge? 03:44:29 elliott: e.g., caffeine? 03:44:46 pikhq: Eh, it works. 03:44:54 Mathnerd314: well, yes, caffeine makes its way into my body 03:44:59 I also cross Zs, 7s, and 0s 03:45:05 Mathnerd314: but i'm perfectly calm right now if that's WHAT YOU'ER THIMNKING WOOOOOOO 03:45:21 so they don't look like 2s, 1s and Os 03:45:43 y'know? 03:45:54 elliott: I'm just jealous of your seemingly boundless energy. I myself am tired all the time, thus the lowercase 03:46:10 Mathnerd314: YES PRESSING THE CAPSLOCK IS VERY ENERGY-USING 03:46:14 Mathnerd314: i'm tired all the time too :p 03:46:18 Sasha: I no longer use an orthography anyone else knows. :P 03:46:23 well not right now but 03:46:30 pikhq: Come again? 03:46:38 I do no use the capslock key 03:46:47 I use some amazing shift key skills 03:47:30 My typical handwriting is nowadays English written using Chinese characters and a Latin-alphabet-derived script with an absurd number of ligatures. 03:47:54 High school was boring, what can I say? 03:48:35 hah 03:48:41 pikhq: I want to see that. 03:48:42 pikhq: Now. 03:48:46 no, I like some of what I write to be legible. 03:49:09 elliott: I don't have a scanner handy, sadly. 03:49:16 pikhq: GIMP! yeahno 03:49:22 elliott: If I did, I would be quite happy to oblige. 03:49:38 pikhq: Try and represent it in Unicodeish? You won't get most of the ligatures and the fancy Latin script but you can get some of them and the freaky half-Chinese stuff. 03:49:41 It sounds amazing. :P 03:50:21 elliott: Uh, the basic gylph forms themselves are highly modified. But I can maybe approximate it... 03:50:44 To be honest, I don't even handwrite. 03:51:01 I have a computer. I can type many times faster than any handwriting. It breaks down a bit with drawings etc. though :) 03:51:49 elliott: I can type at 75WPM on a computer, 65WPM on a typewriter, and about 70WPM handwritten. 03:51:53 I have a graphics tablet... still can 03:51:57 't use it 03:52:03 However, using shorthand, I can get about 120WPM 03:52:04 i can type at 110 wpm or so when i'm just copying text 03:52:12 including error correction 03:52:17 but i think slower than that 03:52:20 Sasha: i'm going to 03:52:21 type 03:52:24 these lines 03:52:25 as fast as i 03:52:26 think of them 03:52:29 to show you the 03:52:31 approximate speed of my 03:52:34 typing which is walrus kitten bark 03:52:47 wat 03:52:53 Sasha: as these lines 03:52:54 appear on your screen 03:52:56 i am typing them 03:52:57 thus giving you an idea 03:52:59 of how quickly 03:53:00 i can type a range 03:53:02 of various sentences 03:53:02 namely 03:53:05 the ones i am typing here 03:53:11 I can type at a decent speed 03:53:11 since they appear on your screen in something approximating real-time, 03:53:16 it is a vaguely useful estimate. 03:53:22 if I have an idea of what I am going to say 03:53:33 but my hands are rather large and this keyboard is small 03:53:38 my brain freezes up for long periods of time to figure out what to say first :p 03:53:41 sometimes 03:54:28 elliott: u`,t`-基字方t`-m自s有高的m°d!f!-d. b;t私可m@yb- a\pr°x!m@t- it... 03:54:40 pikhq: What... does that translate as? 03:55:02 elliott: "Uh, the basic glyph forms themselves are highly modified. But I can maybe approximate it..." 03:55:16 pikhq: you are a crazy fucker 03:55:28 pikhq: why is i written as ! 03:55:31 why is o written as ^o 03:55:40 why is a written as @ mid-sentence 03:55:41 WHYYY 03:55:43 Note that each consonant-vowel combination would be a written as a ligature. 03:55:53 and how do you know whether to use latin or chinese? 03:56:09 elliott: If I know the Chinese for the morphemes of the word I use that, otherwise I don't. 03:56:20 pikhq: So you could have written the entire previous line as Chinese. 03:56:26 If you expanded your knowledge. 03:56:35 Possible. 03:56:50 Well, except "the" doesn't really have an analog in Chinese. 03:56:58 lawl 03:56:59 But that doesn't matter too much; it's a single glyph. 03:57:03 use Gregg shorthanf 03:57:05 -f 03:57:14 +t 03:57:30 h gets turned into a grave diacritic, you see. 03:57:41 yeah 03:57:52 it's a '-like thing in Gregg shorthand 03:58:09 elliott: Oh, yeah, and each ligatured glyph can be written as a single stroke. 03:59:00 Diacritics, sadly, can't really fit into that well. 04:00:56 I'm going to sleep not 04:01:03 now* 04:02:25 elliott: It's really quite nice writing Latin-origin or Greek-origin words using that. 04:03:01 elliott: "Orthographic"? 正書的. 04:12:53 Several hours and Midori has yet to crash on me. 04:12:54 Hooray. 04:37:02 -!- augur has joined. 04:50:20 Can you write shorthand? 04:53:30 I have a book about Pitman shorthand 04:57:50 < zzo38> Did someone in here have a question about whether or not Enhanced CWEB can be used to create webpages? 04:57:51 catseye_: cpressey told me to tell you: Boo! 04:58:01 Yes, that was me. 04:59:02 But I was thinking of yesweb. 04:59:27 Anyway, way too scrollback. 04:59:40 Also, this terminal does not do unicode, so there's a lot of ????'s 05:00:37 catseye_: You can make CGI programs in Enhanced CWEB, you could also make TeX macros to make printed formatting and HTML; you could also use make file mode and @{ ... @} even, or make a C program to put things together, or whatever. 05:01:13 catseye_: yesweb can do multiple files, but it doesn't do much and is mostly only the proof of concept. yesweb can be improved, however. It is public domain. 05:01:15 could I make a C/HTML polyglot that displays acceptably in a web pages, but also compiles with a C compiler? 05:01:48 (that is not really a Enhanced CWEB-specific question, I guess) 05:02:43 catseye_: I don't know. Try? You might need CSS and/or JavaScript used, and you probably need to set the MIME type for sure. 05:04:29 * catseye_ considers starting out with "#include "... 05:04:52 (I'm not very good at polyglots) 05:05:18 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:06:11 catseye_: It almost certainly wouldn't be valid HTML. 05:06:29 catseye_: But you could probably abuse a tag soup parser into compliance. 05:06:32 -!- catseye_ has changed nick to catseye. 05:06:43 pikhq: that would be the plan, yeah. 05:07:00 "it doesn't look awful" in some mainstream web browser. 05:07:09 pikhq: It is why you need to set the MIME type and use CSS 05:18:41 eventually i'd like to write my own x86-subset assembler 05:20:38 it would mainly do checking and stuff, and could use nasm as its backend 05:28:14 Finally I fixed two problems with internationalization.wi program. (I probably never need text internationalization in most programs I write (especially command-line programs), but perhaps someone will need a program from me that supports it?) 05:28:27 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:29:07 Do you know what these two problems are? 05:32:47 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 05:33:07 -!- augur has joined. 05:33:31 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 05:53:08 no 06:14:50 First problem is you can't have categories/comments. Now an optional category/comment can be placed as the second parameter to intl(). Both together are used to uniquely identify, and the category/comment (called the auxiliary) is placed in the default.lang file separated from the main text by ~00 which represents a null character, and is therefore ignored when the file is loaded. 06:15:57 Second problem is if you write a translation and the program changes, the index numbers for the strings might change. This is dealt with by a separate program called intlconv (no change is needed in internationalization.wi to correct this second problem). 06:17:09 Basically, let's say you want to make a Klingon translation and you already have one, but that the program has changed and you need to update it. Three steps as follows: 06:17:37 Step 1: Run "intlconv default.lang klingon.xlang" to update your .xlang file with the changes. 06:17:56 Step 2: Edit the .xlang file to add new translations. 06:18:16 Step 3: Run "intlconv default.lang klingon.xlang klingon.lang" to create the .lang file which is loadable by the program. 06:19:55 Is this reasonable? 06:20:33 That seems reasonable to me. 06:21:39 And internationalization.wi is still only 219 lines long (and this includes things such as chapter headings, which GNU programs do not have) 06:22:02 Both files are public domain (which is compatible with the GNU GPL). 06:23:18 Do you now think this program is complete, with the changes I specified? 06:24:12 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:24:29 Hard to say if it's complete, but I can't think of any other features that I want ;) 06:24:59 Woo, I'm building NetBSD from source... 06:25:06 Maybe I will let this go while I sleep 06:25:18 catseye: Exactly! I don't think there are any other features that are needed. 06:26:46 If you want to use _() as an abbreviation for intl() C macros won't work. Instead do: @{ void _$() { intl$(); } @} 06:28:16 cpressey == catseye ??? 06:29:11 Rugxulo: Can be checked same account by: NS INFO catseye 06:29:55 uh.... 06:30:10 Except that both "catseye" and "cpressey" are logged in now 06:31:01 And only "cpressey" is the one having the 330 line ("is logged in as") in the WHOIS message 06:31:06 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:32:52 Rugxulo: Does that help you at all? 06:33:18 all I'm saying is that if it's not the same person, somebody chose a confusing nick!! 06:33:25 shame on them ;-) 06:34:03 Yes and if that is the case, they took a nick that is registered under someone else's account 06:35:42 well, I don't hear cpressey complaining, so who cares I guess 06:36:22 OK 06:53:38 -!- augur has joined. 07:13:37 oops, forgot I was on IRC 07:13:42 good thing I didn't miss much :-P 07:14:46 Later on I can write other programs in Enhanced CWEB which is also much smaller than GNU software, and much more efficient, and can be made into a book, even. 07:15:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:16:04 smaller and more efficient? how? 07:24:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:36:41 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 07:46:58 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 07:48:03 eight tabs in a row is weird, I don't know how people think that's reasonable 07:56:38 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:57:23 Rugxulo: As far as I know, it is the same person, yes. 07:57:43 hi fizzie! :-) 07:58:09 BTW, I found Ben Olmstead on the 'Net recently, he mentioned a JIT interpreter for Befunge by John Colagioia (sp?), ever heard of it? 07:58:12 Morning. 07:58:21 barely (2am) ;-) 07:58:29 I've heard of one; it was rather more limited than what jitfunge is aiming at. 07:58:50 basically, he said he didn't have MCBC anymore :-( but that John's JIT version was better anyways 07:58:53 On the other hand, I haven't made any progress on that front; too many things again. 07:59:02 yeah, real life (tm) ... I hear ya 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:21:21 "As for 12GB of RAM? “Because I can” is one reason" ... lol !!! 08:22:10 ironic that he's blogging about memory errors 08:24:10 -!- evincar has joined. 08:24:36 SYN 08:36:24 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 08:46:23 -!- tombom has joined. 08:50:50 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 08:52:32 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:08:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:16:06 "In August 1990 an unemployed French nuclear physicist named André Gardes attempted a singlehanded invasion of Sark, armed with a semi-automatic weapon. The night Gardes arrived he put up signs declaring his intention to take over the island the following day at noon. He was arrested while sitting on a bench, changing the gun's magazine and waiting for noon to arrive, by the island's volunteer Constable." 09:16:13 There's always something wonky about physicists. 09:16:18 Esp. nuclear ones. 09:49:47 -!- atrapado has joined. 09:58:50 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]). 10:09:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:28:50 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:31:41 i love this page: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/howto-linux-unix-bash-shell-setup-prompt.html 10:31:48 How do I add colors to my prompt? 10:31:48 You can change the color of your shell prompt to impress your friend or to make your own life quite easy while working at command prompt. 10:32:18 yes. it's that obvious. anyone who gives a shit about colorful prompts has got only one friend. 10:40:57 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:43:19 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:52:50 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:20:43 -!- tombom has joined. 13:01:17 -!- wareya has joined. 13:02:10 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:03:07 -!- nooga has joined. 13:18:43 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:20:36 -!- nooga has joined. 13:30:56 -!- augur has joined. 13:56:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:25:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:38:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:39:11 -!- augur has joined. 14:53:25 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:54:49 I RISE 15:17:50 @tell Rugxulo it wasn't John Colagioia who wrote the JIT Befunge interpreter, it was Kevin Vigor. 15:17:50 catseye: Consider it noted. 15:18:42 cheater_: at work I made my prompt a RAINBOW 15:26:43 @tell elliott NetBSD takes about 2 hour to build on this machine. haven't installed it yet. 15:26:44 catseye: Consider it noted. 15:44:47 catseye, hm compiling netbsd from another OS or? 15:49:55 Vorpal: no, rebuilding it on NetBSD. going to install it after I confirm by reading the manual how to do that 15:50:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:50:14 cpressey, ah 15:50:17 It's the same version as I installed, so no change :) 15:50:31 cpressey, just doing it to make sure it works then? 15:50:52 pretty much. practice for when i update the system sources to actually build an updated version. 15:51:02 ah 15:51:14 * cpressey briefly considered running NetBSD-CURRENT 15:51:24 just now 15:51:37 eh, i dunno 15:51:50 i'm too old for that sort of thing :) 15:52:07 cpressey, why is netbsd called netbsd btw? 15:52:15 my best guess would be same reason as nethack 15:55:04 that would be my guess too 15:55:21 It's BSD hacked on by people on the Net 15:55:37 -!- augur has joined. 15:56:30 cpressey, right 16:01:18 my prof just 'accidentally' proved the fundamental theorem of calculus 16:03:48 -!- evincar has joined. 16:04:00 Saludos. 16:21:10 Wow, it's more dead in here now than it was in the wee hours of the morning. 16:24:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:05 -!- augur has joined. 16:27:09 coppro, wait, what's that? 16:34:53 Phantom_Hoover, isn't it the one about the relationship between integration and differentiation? 16:35:16 * Vorpal checks 16:35:22 well, google agrees with me at least 17:16:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:17:05 I found a map of London Underground in the basement yesterday. Now, I just need to make a larger copy...... 17:35:49 coppro: spontaneous human computation. 17:46:21 A SIMPLE ALGEBRAIC FORMALIZM FOR WEB DEVELOPMENT THAT'S ALL I ASK IS THAT SO HARD??? 17:46:40 * cpressey starts throwing things 17:51:59 I wonder if there is a role for "lightly mutable" data structures in otherwise pure functional programming -- like, in ways that don't affect referential transparency 17:52:58 Never mind 17:53:05 I'm thinking of memoization, I think 17:53:45 -!- sftp has joined. 17:54:27 memoization is just an optimization 17:54:57 what i was thinking of what just an optimization, too 17:54:57 essentially a fanzy word for 'caching of function calls' 17:55:11 ah 17:56:07 Errr ... I don't think that something that can actually change the computational complexity of an operation should be considered a mere "optimization" 17:57:14 I don't see why you can't use that word, it's just that compiler writers have a limited notion of it :) 17:57:19 well, it's usually transparent to the user, and its intention is to not semantically affect the result in any way, so yes, i'd call it an optimization 17:57:39 just as swapping a bubble sort out with a merge sort is an optimization :) 17:59:04 oh i had some sort of insight about proofs and compilers and assembly language last night! 17:59:14 i'll try to remember it while i go for lunch 18:03:25 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:12:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:13:36 Mmm, good cheddar cheese. So very delicious. 18:15:13 you ate pacman! 18:17:21 catseye: i'm sure you have 18:17:27 catseye: that would be totally like you. 18:28:45 What is the square root of your godfather's telephone number? 18:29:02 How many bibles have you stolen? (Use roman numerals) 18:39:02 -!- aloril has joined. 18:44:38 I con't know; is the "Codex of Shared Amplification" a bible? 18:44:55 cpressey: You decide. 18:46:49 ok, then only XXVII BUT I HAD A GOOD REASON 18:56:09 anyway, it wasn't much of an insight. it was something to the effect of: purely functional programs are (comparatively) easy to reason about, while arbitrary assembly language programs are difficult to reason about. it's hard to compile a functional program in a way that is efficient; it's (comparatively) easy to write efficient arbitrary assembly code. And, the more you restrict yourself to non-arbitrary (that is, codifiable, repeatable patterns) a 18:57:41 nothing really new here except that i was considering "reason about" in a formal way: e.g. if you wanted to include a machine-readable proof along with your code. 19:00:08 Gregor: GHC's optimization changes the complexity of operations all the *time*. 19:00:21 Gregor: ... Heck, even *Egobfc* changes the complexity of operations all the time. 19:00:32 Gregor: It swaps out an O(n) addition operation for an O(1) addition. :) 19:01:16 Yeahyeah, I just think maybe we should have different terms (or at least more specific terms) for constant-changing optimizations than for order-of-complexity-reducing optimizations. 19:02:21 Aren't the constant-changing ones pretty much all peephole optimizations? 19:02:23 Voila. 19:02:29 Gregor: some would use "micro-optimization" for the first kind. 19:03:29 That one maybe has yet ANOTHER connotation to it, though. 19:03:37 pikhq: Any sort of improvement to a register allocation scheme is going to be a constant-changing optimization, but it won't necessarily be a peephole optimization. 19:04:00 (That is, something a programmer has manually written in the source code, not a compiler.) 19:04:05 (Assuming uniform but slow access to memory) 19:04:43 (which is a wrong assumption and has been for several decades now) 19:08:26 Irrelevant. 19:09:33 All I'm doing is removing one constant-changing optimization from the equation to focus on a different constant. It's still not going to affect the order of complexity. 19:10:14 But what if my caches are RAM and my main memory is a tape? Huh? What then? 19:10:42 cpressey: Then you're an idiot. 19:10:43 :P 19:18:14 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:22:40 Gregor: I prefer "mad". 19:22:46 BWAHAHAHAHA 19:28:03 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 19:28:16 -!- distant_figure has joined. 19:35:19 http://webkit.org/projects/webkit/index.html 19:35:30 XCode + WebKit = if you want a header to be project-wide but not public, --- how the hell were we both just about to mention WebKit? 19:35:31 that's just... beautiful *snif* 19:37:12 webkit webkit webkit 19:38:42 also i love how the sample code on developer.apple.com is all light grey on light blue. 19:41:24 i should set my text editor to use those two colours. MAN. the joy my eyes would feel! 19:43:56 hmm, light grey on light blue, isn't that pretty poor contrast? 19:44:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:45:25 olsner: you be the judge: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/DisplayWebContent/Tasks/SimpleBrowsing.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20002025-CJBEHAAG 19:46:07 XCode + WebKit = if you want a header to be project-wide but not public, mark it "private". If you want it to be private, mark it "project". 19:46:32 WebKit is proof that XCode is a shitty utility, since half the build system is designed to work AROUND XCodec. 19:46:35 *XCode ... 19:48:02 cpressey: that's not so bad actually 19:50:23 olsner: to my eyes, it's a hair's breadth away from being invisible 19:51:51 I should make a larger copy of this London Underground map, and then make some cards and tokens for the game 19:53:12 Some stations are on two zones 19:54:33 -!- ais523_ has joined. 19:54:34 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 19:54:34 -!- ais523_ has joined. 19:54:34 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 19:54:34 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:04:16 I looked in some detail at the standard C99 math functions and found some curious stuff. 20:04:42 What curious stuff did you find? 20:04:53 for example: double nan(char* s); // returns a nan represented by the string s 20:04:59 which is a bit strange way to do it IMO 20:05:11 and double remqou(double x, double y, int *quo); 20:05:15 well that one is just weird 20:05:35 "[...] compute the remainder and part of the quotient upon division of x by y. A few bits of the quotient are stored via the quo pointer. The remainder is returned as the function result." 20:05:41 "The value stored via the quo pointer has the sign of x / y and agrees with the quotient in at least the low order 3 bits." 20:05:48 how is that useful... 20:07:44 elliott for the logs, other people who are interested: there's a currenty hilarious proggit submission http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dwtou/stack_overflow_how_do_i_leave_my_site_vulnerable/ about an XSS vulnerability in Stack Overflow; one of the Stack Overflow admins posted to say they'd corrected it (and were annoyed at the way it was disclosed), and someone replied to him using Jeff Atwood's account saying 20:07:46 "I've tried being white hat with an SO employee before. All he did was change his password on one site but not any others." 20:09:46 ais523_, who is Jeff Atwood? 20:09:57 one of the two founders of Stack Overflow 20:10:06 along with Joel Spolsky 20:10:16 they're famous for self-promoting to relatively absurd degrees 20:10:32 also, one of them doesn't know much about programming; the other does, but I can never remember which is which 20:10:51 heh 20:13:28 Oh, Jeff Atwood is the Coding Horror guy 20:13:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:15:16 Therefore Joel must be the one who knows about programming :) 20:16:15 No, Joel actually used to be pretty sane. He just likes to talk about how he came to the deep realization that the sky is blue 20:16:36 s/No,// 20:16:42 the sky is blue!? 20:17:44 "I am now quite comfortable in VB.NET or C#, despite the evils of case sensitivity." -- Jeff Atwood 20:19:44 No no it gets MUCH BETTER 20:19:47 "I consider the Wumpus my power animal" 20:19:48 hmm, now I'm curious enough to actually read some recent Coding Horror to see what it's like 20:20:22 cpressey, "power animal"? 20:20:24 wtf is that 20:20:40 Vorpal: they are mentioned in fight club 20:20:46 Vorpal: It links to this: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/04/your-personal-brand.html 20:20:58 I assume it's similar to "spirit animal" in meaning 20:21:37 But it's also, like, apparently his 1st experience with Hunt the Wumpus was with a *graphical* version of the game? 20:21:54 cpressey, are there graphical versions of it? 20:22:11 Vorpal: There certainly are. 20:22:16 I wouldn't bother with them. 20:22:17 my first experience with it was the Linux port of the old BSD version 20:22:24 cpressey, oh and, ever tried that "be the wumpus" game? Which isn't really graphical 20:22:38 although I knew about it before from the famous Befunge-93 program 20:22:58 http://www.videogamehouse.net/huntwumpus.html GRAPHICAL BASTARDIZATION 20:23:11 Vorpal: No, I haven't 20:23:32 My first exposure to it was in a book compilation of programs from Creative Computing 20:24:11 ANYWAY, to the OTHER thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_animal 20:24:12 cpressey, it's quite fun. The idea is that you play the wumpus, which is a blind animal and thus you have to try to avoid the arrows and locate the hunter to eat em by sound alone. Playable with headphones. Completely impossible with speakers. 20:24:33 Jeff Atwood is now on my List 20:24:41 cpressey, list for what 20:26:01 List of master programmers whose hearts to eat to gain their powers. 20:26:21 evincar: You know it. 20:26:49 Also on list: ESR and Roger Penrose. 20:26:51 I can think of several sorts of List you could plausibly put Jeff Atwood on 20:26:52 *List 20:26:58 oh, is atwood worthy of membership on such a list? why? 20:27:28 olsner: in case you missed it: "I consider the [graphical] Wumpus my power animal" -- Jeff Atwood 20:27:37 Well, I'd wager he's a very good programmer, but he's really a brilliant programming philosopher. 20:27:58 He knows what programmers need to make them awesome at what they do. 20:28:01 cpressey: hmm, that doesn't impress me... what's a wumpus? 20:28:30 olsner: Read back a ways. :P 20:29:49 I'm not particularly impressed by Coding Horror so far 20:29:56 half of what I've read is hardware reviews, for no apparent reason 20:30:07 written as if they're authority passed down from God rather than subjective advice 20:30:19 "The power animal may also lend its ward or charge the wisdom or attributes of its kind. For example, a hawk power animal provides hawk attributes, such as hawk-eye." 20:30:35 Need I remind anyone what the powers of a Wumpus are. 20:30:52 Sticky feet to cling to sides of pits with, and smelling awful. 20:31:26 and immunity to bats? 20:31:38 Oh yes, can't forget that. And eating adventurers. 20:32:02 All in all a really noble set of attributes. 20:33:36 Coding Horror has hardware reviews? Oh, this just won't stop getting "better". 20:34:24 Yup, a whole rant about netbooks. 20:36:25 There was a book that used that "Coding Horror" icon as one of its "margin icons"... i used to have a copy. It's popular and I learned nothing from it. 20:37:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:38:01 I don't think it's the same book, but I associate it with one that was about code performance analysis, that explicitly eschewed asymptotic analysis as uselessly abstract, and dealt instead with concrete time measurements. 20:38:04 cpressey, what was your insight? 20:38:39 Phantom_Hoover: Efficiency is inversely proportional to ease of formal reasoning of the code. 20:39:04 The compiled code? 20:39:21 cpressey: if that were true, Haskell would be a lot slower than Befunge 20:39:33 So easy-to-reason-with compiled code is inefficient, and efficient code is hard to reason with? 20:40:30 in asm or C, it might make more sense 20:40:39 microoptimisations often make code harder to read 20:40:43 Try to factor compilation out. 20:41:05 ais523_: A Haskell interpreter of the same complexity as your average Befunge interpreter would be a lot slower than Befunge. 20:41:50 hmm, I thought you meant "interpreter written in Haskell" vs "interpreter written in Befunge" 20:42:36 Maybe I'll just repeat my original summary without trying to compress it 20:42:37 12:55 < cpressey> anyway, it wasn't much of an insight. it was something to the effect of: purely functional programs are (comparatively) easy to reason about, while arbitrary assembly language programs are difficult to reason about. it's hard to compile a functional program in a way that is efficient; it's (comparatively) easy to write efficient 20:42:42 arbitrary asembly code. And, the more you restsrict yourself to non-arbitrary (that is, codifiable, repeatable patterns) assembly code, it becomes easier to reason about, but harder to make efficient. 20:43:26 < cpressey> nothing really new here except that i was considering "reason about" in a formal way: e.g. if you wanted to include a machine-readable proof along with your code. 20:44:04 Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, forget this! Let's talk about Jeff Atwood's power animal instead! 20:44:23 What about it? 20:44:29 Phantom_Hoover: It's the Wumpus! 20:44:40 The GRAPHICAL Wumpus! 20:46:04 cpressey: well, it's easier to embed higher-order typed lambda calculus into hardware using the method I'm using in my research, than it is to embed typical asms with GOTO 20:46:13 the second would require large, inefficient workarounds 20:46:42 ais523_: I should add "on present models of hardware computation" to my insight, then 20:46:43 so perhaps the insight is that the sort of asm today's processors require isn't very suited for formal reasoning 20:46:46 yep 20:47:06 I think it becomes relatively clear why it is, if you do that 20:47:37 asm in general is hard to reason about; subsets may be easier, but it would be a huge coincidence if any given algorithm's fastest implementation happened to fall into one of those subsets 20:49:53 Now I want to see some proofs that extremely gory assembly programs are correct 20:50:37 OK, well, n/m... I have too many interests 20:51:00 Write a formal semantics for assembly, choose what you want to proof, feed it all into Cock^H^Hq, voila :P 20:51:17 *to prove 20:53:56 That's kind of it, though. Any practical assembly language will have a horrible, horrible semantics that will make Coq... unhappy. 20:54:14 Anything with a nice semantics, otoh, will be too slow :) 20:54:40 Ayup 8-D 21:06:45 http://pleasingfungus.com/ 21:15:52 http://manufactoria.com/ 21:22:22 Lé sigh. 21:22:29 My IPv6 tunnel no longer works. I know not why. 21:28:07 i have a srs questn 21:28:12 if it is impossible to patent protocols.. 21:28:27 would it be possible to create a language which is expressed through protocols.. 21:28:32 to avoid software patents? 21:29:02 Can you patent a language? 21:29:47 i don't know 21:29:49 can you? 21:30:00 You can probably TRY 21:31:10 cpressey: Like anything else, you can only patent it if you a formal specification of it. 21:31:15 *have 21:31:27 My verb fell out. 21:31:37 But it brought me back an asterisk. 21:31:39 Good have. 21:40:56 cpressey: hmm, that doesn't impress me... what's a wumpus? <-- did you seriously not know what a wumpus is? 21:41:41 olsner, next you will claim to not know what colossal cave adventure is! 21:41:51 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]). 21:42:01 Vorpal: indeed I don't 21:42:17 I assume it's an adventure game, since the wumpus game is (right?) 21:42:32 but even though I have heard of the wumpus game, I have no idea what a wumpus is 21:43:35 the wumpus is the antagonist of the wumpus game. 21:44:00 olsner: play the wumpus game. 21:44:15 (line 1 and 2 are in response to the colossal cave adventure, line 3 verifying I don't know what a wumpus is) 21:45:48 OH GOD all the top google hits for online versions are graphical. 21:45:51 PEASANTS. 21:46:00 cpressey: Seems to me like YOU'RE the antagonist. The wumpus is just trying to live its life, and you're hunting it. 21:46:13 That's better: http://scv.bu.edu/cgi-bin/wcl 21:46:18 cpressey: Like anything else, you can only patent it if you a formal specification of it. // remove the word "formal" or I'll remove your face. 21:46:33 Gregor: Indeed so. I see a humanties paper here somewhere. 21:46:39 I think YOU'RE by definition the protagonist, and it's always the OTHER thing that's the antagonist 21:46:54 even if you're evil 21:48:28 olsner: read: http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=247 21:49:27 Gregor: "you can only patent it if you a specification of it"? 21:51:17 I assume it's an adventure game, since the wumpus game is (right?) <-- uh... 21:51:32 it's more a logic game 21:51:39 one with quite a high chance of failure even with perfect play 21:51:56 also, bats 21:52:00 lol 21:52:01 olsner, and colossal cave adventure was the first text adventure game. 21:52:03 the very first one 21:52:38 cpressey: Seems to me like YOU'RE the antagonist. The wumpus is just trying to live its life, and you're hunting it. <-- go play "be the wumpus" then 21:52:41 it's fun 21:53:45 ais523_, and pits 21:53:49 ais523_, don't forget the pits 21:53:56 indeed 21:54:03 they are considerably more fatal than the bats 21:54:12 * ais523_ wonders what the optimal HtW strategy is 21:54:24 interesting question 21:54:46 ais523_, I seem to remember that the b93 htw was quite easy, compared to the classical one 21:54:56 probably due to lack of being able to make anything complex in b93 21:55:08 the classical one's very simple too 21:55:28 ais523_, hm well the bsd one then 21:55:35 it's that one I was talking about 21:55:40 it's relatively hard, but very simple 21:55:47 well, I said easy 21:55:49 not simple 21:55:50 above 21:55:59 the b93 one has unlimited arrows iirc 21:56:18 ah, that would help quite a lot 21:57:38 So 21:57:58 oh... I don't even know where to begin 21:58:44 People who don't believe in attributes-beginning-with-an-underscore in Python because "nothing is really private anyway". 21:59:40 The term "script kiddie for life" comes to mind, I guess. 22:00:17 hm, from the "be the wumpus" website: "WARNING -- this game does contain small amounts of sounds of people speaking words which some people might consider profane. If you are apt to be offended by the numbers in a .wav file when run through a D/A converter, and then the analog signal amplified then run through a loudspeaker of some kind, well, you may have a problem with my numbers then, I suppose. Thin 22:00:17 g is, it's your problem, not mine. You've been warned. And what sorts of things would you expect people trapped in a dark cave with a hungry wumpus to say?" 22:00:19 XD 22:15:34 olsner: so you've read that article now, RIGHT? 22:16:34 cpressey: I have 22:17:30 olsner: GOOD ANSWER 22:17:49 And now you know what a Wumpus is! 22:18:25 yes, turns out it's COMPLETELY FICTIONAL! 22:18:36 Yes quite so! 22:19:11 ais523_, do you have any idea why man 3 pow has such a *huge* list of special casing the behaviour? 22:19:26 Vorpal: because floating-point is evil 22:19:38 IEEE floating point inherently has quite a lot of special cases 22:19:39 ais523_, yes but pow() is a lot worse than, say, sqrt() or even log() 22:19:42 and pow isn't commutative 22:19:56 so you have to consider all the special cases for each arguments 22:19:59 combinatorial explosion! 22:20:20 olsner: Not only fictional, but also kind of a side-effect of the design of the game! 22:20:20 yes quite 22:20:27 ais523_, and even worse for my intended application 22:20:54 why are you intending an application that cares about the corner cases of exponentiation? 22:21:12 ais523_, which would be a formally speced math.h so I can use that prove an app. However that involves proving that the different behaviour cases are pair-wise disjoint... 22:21:18 which will be absurd for pow() 22:21:42 "proof" and "floating point" in the same sentence 22:21:46 "lol", as they say 22:21:51 cpressey, it is possible actually. 22:22:08 Did I say it wasn't? 22:22:11 cpressey, look at frama-c + why + gappa 22:22:15 I said it was "lol". 22:22:19 ah 22:23:03 cpressey, I do not intend to prove pow() but I intend to spec it's behaviour according to the C standard so I can use this as an "axiom" to prove the code I'm interested in proving 22:23:35 with floating point, not even addition is commutative 22:23:55 oh well, I should go home 22:23:58 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:24:14 true it isn't indeed 22:26:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:26:27 -!- augur has joined. 22:40:58 cpressey, wasn't there a library for Coq that worked with FP? 22:51:35 Phantom_Hoover: No se habla Coq. 22:52:08 cpressey, well, you can prove some FP things. 22:52:10 (Nor Spanish, so that is probably ungrammatical) 22:52:43 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:53:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:57:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:59:13 I want to prove rewriting things -- using a rewrite system to do it :) 23:17:15 I was thinking about making a compiler for sed 23:18:24 don't have any problems that are interesting enough to allow optimizations to be useful, while at the same time being simple enough that anyone can be bothered solving it in sed 23:19:09 *but I don't 23:20:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:21:14 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:26:48 -!- elliott has joined. 23:27:52 oh shit my ignore didn't carry over the upgrade 23:27:53 elliott: catseye told me to tell you: NetBSD takes about 2 hour to build on this machine. haven't installed it yet. 23:28:19 00:21:21 "As for 12GB of RAM? “Because I can” is one reason" ... lol !!! 23:28:19 00:22:10 ironic that he's blogging about memory errors 23:28:21 with ECC it's unlikely 23:28:27 anyway, bsmntbombdood has 12GiB :p 23:29:12 elliott, that quote looked fucked up, was it from clog messing it up? 23:29:17 yes 23:29:31 Vorpal: rather from tunes.org not sending character encoding headers 23:29:43 although i suppose irc has no real encoding :) 23:33:13 Oh, "Code Complete" is the name of that book. And he stole the icon *from* it, not vice-versa or anything. 23:34:01 cpressey: yes, indeed. 23:34:10 i can say this without even having seen the other qusetion because it's so obvious what you're referring to :) 23:34:19 cpressey: he stole it with PERMISSION, though! 23:34:20 cpressey: anyway-- 23:34:29 cpressey: i had an insane dream and you were the central character! 23:34:34 elliott: If you read the logs you'll discover... the List. 23:34:38 elliott: Cool! 23:34:46 I think. 23:34:49 cpressey: well you weren't being a very good cpressey. 23:34:52 :( 23:35:01 Choose my language: Haskell, Factor, or Smalltalk 23:35:09 Sgeo: Fuxi! 23:35:33 Sgeo: http://www.fuxi.org/EN/index.htm 23:36:10 Is using Flash on the front page supposed to make me like it? 23:36:14 cpressey: I mean, you had made catseye.tc show a page about how you and your wife were going to commit suicide on the [day] with the help of some, uhh, guy, and that guy was also one of the leaders of uh something you were trying to protest by doing this. I went "NOOOOOO" and the like on IRC and since this is a dream apparently IRC is in-person and you decided that this was the perfect time to have us meet your wife, who is a mermaid except more 23:36:14 like a dolphin-mermaid and also she's a (demi-?)god and this is why we'd never met her before. 23:36:21 cpressey: Then the whole thing turned into a parody of Scooby Doo. 23:36:31 Those in the market for languages are not mainstream audiences 23:36:58 Dear Fuxi website: Please don't use Flash for navigation 23:37:02 elliott: Yes! That is my real life in a nutshell. 23:37:13 cpressey: I thought so. So when are you going to kill yourself? 23:37:31 elliott: I have it written down somewhere 23:37:40 cpressey: On your PALM 23:37:44 PC 23:38:02 "it takes a conventional syntactic system, that makes the programmers with some experiences of C++, JAVA, use the language without any training;" 23:38:06 _any_? 23:38:29 It better not have C++ and Java as subsets 23:38:40 cpressey: Sgeo is going to decide that fuxi has interesting aspects now. 23:38:57 elliott, um, my first impression so far is negative 23:39:09 Sgeo: That is irrelevant. 23:39:09 Sgeo: You should try reading the spec. It's in Chinese. 23:39:12 *Fuxi 23:39:18 *Fucksy 23:39:42 Sgeo: But, uh, what am I choosing your language for? 23:39:42 21:04:29 * catseye_ considers starting out with "#include "... 23:39:56 cpressey, I assume there's an English translation? 23:40:05 cpressey, to be my returning love affair 23:40:08 >.> 23:40:14 Sgeo: Of the spec? Not that I've found 23:40:19 Sgeo: one of those languages is going to have a baby one day 23:40:19 * Sgeo is currently thinking quite a bit about Haskell 23:40:22 and you'll have to pay child support 23:40:40 /*
23:40:44 ...
*/ 23:40:45 that might work 23:40:46 maybe 23:40:52 might take some more element coercion 23:41:17 "it collects active, remote, mobile and persistent objects in a transparent way, through some orthogonal styles;" 23:41:27 That sounded good right up to "orthogonal" 23:41:40 Oh, actually, it makes sense 23:41:42 I think 23:41:42 n/m 23:43:05 Uhhhh.... 23:43:15 Variables store both a value and a pointer? 23:43:16 WTF 23:43:45 Now I feel bad for throwing that in your path, Sgeo 23:43:49 Unless it can't do both 23:43:53 I've barely looked at it myself 23:43:58 Maybe I should just read the damn spec 23:44:21 If it can't do both, that's ok. Except the explanation is a bit WTFy 23:45:05 Yeah, they don't do both. Unless test() is some quantum weirdness 23:45:31 I keep seeing bad thing, then realizing that it's not actually that bad 23:46:56 Whoever wrote this needs to be hit on the head for making the language look more incomprehensible than it actually is 23:47:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:47:19 "But expressions in Fuxi can terminate naturally, without any delimiters." 23:47:36 I'd headdesk, but I'm sure an explanation will be forthcoming eventually 23:47:58 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:48:21 Oh, well, if an operator takes two arguments, and functions, etc etc., what do you need statement delimeters for 23:48:27 hi pikhq 23:48:28 And this is where pikhq_ hits me 23:48:37 Sgeo: rebol does that 23:48:38 also logo 23:48:39 * pikhq_ punches Sgeo 23:48:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:48:47 pikhq is just punching you because he hates you 23:49:00 cpressey: We should try and devise a language so horrible that Sgeo will still like it. 23:49:21 Fuxi keeps being not as horrible as I imagine 23:49:30 It just needs decent documentation 23:50:04 cpressey: See? 23:50:10 cpressey: Literally impossible. 23:50:11 Sgeo: Falcon. 23:50:16 Sgeo: No, YOU need to learn Chinese. 23:50:31 "Your search - Fuxi esolang - did not match any documents. " 23:50:33 -!- augur has joined. 23:50:34 cpressey, got a link? 23:50:37 fuxi.org 23:50:56 Ok 23:51:03 just two flash animations 23:51:06 wtf is that site 23:51:08 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:51:10 Fuxi {} blocks are fucked up 23:51:16 Vorpal: click "English" 23:51:26 cpressey, I did. Just two flash ones again 23:52:02 {}, which is syntactic sugar for a bunch of &&, should absolutely NOT be described as similar to blocks in C/C++ 23:52:05 elliott, want some possible ideas for horrible languages? 23:52:11 Vorpal: the one on the right is a menu 23:52:18 Vorpal: No, C++ will provide plenty. 23:52:21 cpressey, well I don't have flash 23:52:23 elliott, hah 23:52:23 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 23:52:25 Vorpal: http://www.fuxi.org/EN/whitepaper.htm 23:52:30 That'll get ya started 23:52:40 I cannot forgive the documentation now 23:52:41 elliott, my first idea was "Malbolge2EE" 23:52:57 I think I'm going to uninstall my web browser and then act like people should have to provide me content without having one. 23:53:01 Actually... I kind of see the rationale 23:53:10 Assignments are boolean expressions 23:53:20 cpressey, it uses god damn double width font 23:53:22 unreadable 23:53:25 If one fails, the block returns false... that still kind of is a sucky way to deal with errors 23:53:26 Vorpal: You may prefer http://www.fuxi.org/ZH/whitepaper.htm 23:53:38 well I can't read that 23:53:40 Vorpal REALLY hates double width fonts. 23:53:44 Or: Just loves whining. 23:53:55 elliott, I find it VERY hard to read 23:54:00 No you don't. 23:54:21 Not as hard as Han characters, I imagine 23:54:21 yes I do 23:54:22 -!- wareya has joined. 23:54:25 cpressey, well duh 23:54:32 Vorpal: No, you don't. 23:54:33 ......I hate Fuxi 23:54:36 Not unless your brain is completely broken. 23:54:40 let{ } in (10) 23:54:41 anyway, I worked around it. firebug is an awesome extension 23:54:48 just add lang="en" to the body element 23:54:50 HardER, yes. VERY HARD, no. 23:54:59 Sgeo: ...what's wrong with that? 23:55:00 that makes firefox switch over to proper rendering of English 23:55:00 Basically, assignments INSIDE the block aren't scoped to stay in the block. To do that, you use a let statement that contains the block 23:55:12 omg a let statement how awful 23:55:12 Sgeo: Wow. 23:55:20 providing an alternative to imperative assignment 23:55:29 cpressey: it's not *that* bad, afaict 23:55:34 since assignment is an imperative thing 23:55:39 better than python >:) 23:56:05 elliott: It's mainly the Hey What It's All In Chinese thing. 23:56:10 elliott, I'm ok with imperative assignment. I'm not ok with imperative assignments having global scope, while telling people that the language is similar enough to C++ and Java 23:56:13 cpressey: Oh no, the language is terrible. 23:56:16 cpressey: The assignment isn't. 23:56:21 elliott: Oh 23:56:23 Sgeo is just excellent at hating the opposite things that he should. 23:56:27 cpressey, the grammar in that link is.... really interesting 23:56:40 Vorpal: "has"/"had"/"have" -- you, in all the wrong situations 23:57:01 elliott, yes but that one I don't notice so much :P 23:57:34 I had the impression "let statement that contains the block" meant the block was contained in one of the *bindings* of the let statement, or something. 23:57:41 Which is clearly crazy. 23:57:46 But then, it's been a long day. 23:57:58 cpressey: Nope, just that a variable assignment persists beyond a block, and if you want to scope it to a block, you have to use let. 23:58:03 Which, really, isn't *that* horrible. 23:58:08 '" Fuxi does not provide constructs for looping, like for-statement or while-statement." 23:58:16 Sgeo: Neither does Haskell. 23:58:18 Can I curse Fuxi for false advertising again? 23:58:25 Not compared to say Python, which does that, except without the benefit of a "let" to reign it in 23:58:28 elliott, Haskell does not claim to be easy for Java and C++ programmers 23:58:37 Sgeo: If they provide an equivalent construct in the library, that does not invalidate their statement. 23:59:16 um, tail recursion isn't hard to learn for an imperative programmer 23:59:18 Sgeo: If you fall in love with Haskell, I'll be slightly less creeped out than if you fall in love with Factor or Smalltalk. 23:59:41 cpressey: As long as he doesn't make out with it in here. 23:59:45 Get a room, you two. 23:59:53 Vorpal: Yes. Yes it is. 23:59:53 "1) it takes a conventional syntactic system, that makes the programmers with some experiences of C++, JAVA, use the language without any training;"