00:00:00 pikhq, what about module-assistant? 00:00:08 pikhq: Did you know that fglrx sucks ass? 00:00:08 pikhq, I seen that used instead of dkms 00:00:20 pikhq: I don't suppose radeon works with your card? :P 00:00:23 elliott: Yes, yes. Hand me money to get a better graphics card. 00:00:33 pikhq: I don't suppose radeon works with your card? :P >_> 00:00:35 pikhq: But, uh, hm. 00:00:57 elliott, the problem with debian is that for anything related to building packages there are 5 different standard systems. At least 00:01:41 Ah, found the bug. 00:02:06 Vorpal: It's been unified a lot semi-recently. 00:02:18 TLS would be way more secure if people acutally used its capabilities... :-) 00:02:45 elliott, just look at the various system to apply patches. Or the various ways to build kernel modules 00:02:48 and so on 00:03:09 Vorpal: They've got surprisingly few for being continuously maintained since 1993. 00:03:17 elliott, true 00:03:31 elliott, still enough to be confusing to the casual package compiler 00:03:35 Fuck it. Let's see about getting Radeon working. 00:03:57 Ilari, what is that about "Extended Validation" you sometimes see 00:04:15 pikhq: Didn't you find the bug? :P 00:04:27 pikhq: But -- wait. 00:04:33 At least presently extended validation is more secure... 00:04:33 pikhq: You probably just need a more recent fglrx. 00:04:39 pikhq: In my experience, packages lag behind ... a lot. 00:04:41 pikhq: What card do you have? 00:05:00 elliott: I'd rather not have to futz with installing a single package from Sid. 00:05:04 pikhq: Nonono. 00:05:07 pikhq: The official AMD package. 00:05:15 elliott: It's a Radeon HD 3200. 00:05:17 Ilari, how does it help? 00:05:24 For fun, someone posted to one list sightly edited (normal) CPS (from early 90s) and sightly edited modern EV CPS and then asked to guess which was which... 00:05:27 pikhq: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English 00:05:50 Which is an R600... 00:05:55 Vorpal: Less CAs to issue bad certificates. :-) 00:06:00 pikhq: I did select 64-bit, interestingly it says x86 but whatever. 00:06:07 pikhq: But, uh, it doesn't look like a Debian package. 00:06:10 pikhq: Yeaaah I'd try radeon. 00:06:10 Vorpal: And supposedly better verification... 00:06:14 Ilari, so the browser limits who it trust with EV? 00:06:53 elliott: I have no idea how to switch which driver X11 uses in this new, Xorg.conf-less world. 00:07:05 pikhq: You, uh, haha, don't really. 00:07:08 pikhq: Just install radeon and not fglrx. 00:07:14 pikhq: It should work automagicaly. 00:07:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:07:20 The entiere chain has to be marked valid for EV for EV validation to succeed. 00:07:30 Ilari, hm 00:07:40 And not all root certs are (to say nothing about sub-certs). 00:08:10 elliott: How do you tell which driver *is* being used? 00:08:22 pikhq, xrandr iirc? 00:08:22 pikhq: the logs 00:08:25 /var/log/Xorg* 00:08:31 eh wait 00:08:32 Bleh. 00:08:55 pikhq: It's usually pretty prominent. 00:09:04 pikhq: Just grep whichever drivers you think it might be :P 00:09:08 pikhq, glxinfo | grep vendor 00:09:27 *maybe* 00:10:34 Back in a bit, then. 00:10:42 Erm, wait. 00:11:24 Yeah. 00:11:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:12:48 But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). 00:13:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:14:05 hi pikhq 00:14:13 the headquarters of all piks 00:14:52 Seems that you need to install "evil" firmware for it to actually accelerate stuff. 00:15:18 ... What the hell, it's not accelerating GL. 00:15:27 It claims to be but there's no way it actually is. 00:16:18 pikhq: What, glxgears going slowly? 00:16:21 Protip: Don't use glxgears. 00:16:25 It's... pathological. 00:16:33 pikhq: Try something more real. 00:16:42 I was using mplayer -vo gl 00:16:52 Aaand now I see the logs. 00:17:05 [dri] This chipset requires a kernel module version of 1.17.0, 00:17:05 [dri] but the kernel reports a version of 2.0.0.[dri] If using legacy modesetting, upgrade your kernel. 00:17:08 [dri] If using kernel modesetting, make sure your module is 00:17:10 [dri] loaded prior to starting X, and that this driver was built 00:17:13 [dri] with support for KMS. 00:17:15 [dri] Disabling DRI. 00:17:18 *facepalm* 00:17:20 pikhq: lol 00:17:30 pikhq: What driver? 00:17:32 radeon or fglrx? 00:17:33 radeon 00:17:38 pikhq: You know what? 00:17:42 pikhq: Just download radeon from AMD. 00:17:45 erm 00:17:47 pikhq: Just download fglrx from AMD. 00:17:51 Surely it can't be that bad. 00:18:07 pikhq: Even if it does just have an installer, you can use checkinstall. :P 00:18:35 pikhq: And, uh, yeah, Debian is great when you're not trying proprietary stuff... and the open-source graphics drivers suck immensely. 00:18:42 pikhq: LOL@everyone who uses anything that isn't intel 00:19:03 Just. GAH. THE PAIN AGONY AND STUPID. 00:19:11 ESPECIALLY THE STUPID. 00:19:41 pikhq: In Debian's defence, it totally isn't their fault. 00:19:47 elliott: No, this actually is. 00:20:00 pikhq: Isn't it fglrx's? 00:20:04 erm 00:20:06 pikhq: Isn't it radeons's? 00:20:08 *radeon's? 00:20:15 elliott: They built the X driver with a need for kernel modesetting and the kernel without kernel modesetting. 00:20:26 pikhq: Pretty sure the kernel has KMS... 00:20:31 [dri] If using kernel modesetting, make sure your module is 00:20:31 [dri] loaded prior to starting X, and that this driver was built 00:20:31 [dri] with support for KMS. 00:20:51 It doesn't. 00:21:11 But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). <-- DV? 00:21:25 pikhq: It'll be a package. 00:21:30 pikhq: aptitude search linux | grep kms 00:21:35 grep -i kms, maybe. 00:21:36 Domain Validated (the ordinary kind). 00:22:27 * elliott has never heard of big/little-endianness being referred to as "byte-sex"... 00:22:32 Ilari, right 00:22:34 But http://www.winehq.org/myths#only_x86 does! 00:23:13 Okay, never mind, it is *certainly* loading the KMS version of the Radeon module. 00:23:37 Vorpal: Holy carp -- linux 0.01 isn't under GPL. 00:24:00 Vorpal: Although its "license" is terribly unclear; I can't even tell whether it's viral or not. 00:24:07 Oh, wait, yes it is. Probably. 00:24:53 does anyone understand why ubuntu christian edition and the like exist? 00:25:01 elliott, wait, what? 00:25:14 elliott: ARGGH. 00:25:17 other than a really warped centring of your life around your religion? (ok, so that's a "reasonable" thing to do if you take religion literally, but not in the watered-down half-beliefs we have today) 00:25:33 Vorpal: also ubuntu muslim edition! SORRY, they renamed it "Sabily" 00:25:36 "ubuntu christian edition" <--- duuude this is October, not April 00:25:39 it means "My Way" in TERRORIST LANGUAGE. 00:25:46 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Sabily-menu.png 00:25:49 Pre-installed Islamic software! 00:25:50 -!- catseye has joined. 00:25:54 Totally Islamic green colour screen! 00:26:07 Automatic DDoSing of Salman Rushdie's website! 00:26:54 Vorpal: http://ubuntuce.com/ 00:27:04 note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 00:27:37 need proslytizing edition 00:27:39 http://christianubuntu.blogspot.com/ <-- And here's a mockery of it! 00:27:43 "In Ubuntu Christian Edition the mount command calls the sermon script. Ensuring you always get a sermon on the mount." 00:27:49 "Ubuntu Christian Edition is Three in One... Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu Christian Edition" 00:27:59 "Ubuntu Christian Edition 7.04 will be called "Chaste Fawn"" <-- win 00:28:17 note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not too! <-- that is AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 00:28:19 err 00:28:19 fai 00:28:21 fail 00:28:25 Vorpal: lolwat 00:28:27 "For 40 days before Easter, Ubuntu Christian Edition works in text mode only." 00:28:36 elliott, cursor went spare 00:28:38 note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE <-- that is AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE too 00:28:40 "What are you giving up for lent?" "X11!" "You're meant to give up something you *like*." 00:28:43 was what I *meant* to type 00:29:21 elliott, joke right? This is like the "getafirstlife" website right? 00:29:29 elliott: So, the actual from-ATI driver then. 00:29:29 http://christianubuntu.blogspot.com/ is a joke 00:29:32 http://ubuntuce.com/ is not 00:29:39 pikhq: Plus checkinstall. 00:29:44 elliott: Yes. 00:29:53 pikhq: Even though checkinstall is a bit urgh. But, yeah. 00:30:17 About dialogue for Gnome's Wanda the Fish panel applet: "Wanda has no use what-so-ever. It only takes up disk space and compilation time, and if loaded it also takes up precious panel space and memory. Anybody found using it should be promptly sent for a psychiatric evaluation." 00:30:37 It does run a command when clicked, though! 00:31:26 I MADE ONE UP 00:31:44 elliott, "wanda"? 00:31:47 I never heard of it 00:31:50 Vorpal: In Ubuntu Christian Edition, configuring your network card to promiscuous mode is forbidden. 00:31:57 Okay, that needs... tightening up. 00:32:02 But it has potential! 00:32:14 Vorpal: It's a little fish that swims backwards and forth in a tiny 8-frame animation on your panel. 00:32:14 elliott, looks dead: http://ubuntuce.com/download.htm 00:32:23 When you hover over it, you see "Wanda the Fortune Teller". 00:32:27 When you click it, it runs fortune. 00:32:28 thank (hah) god for it being dead 00:32:35 Vorpal: But Sabily is alive! 00:34:29 Vorpal: You know, I have a friend who has Yggdrasil. 00:34:38 I think he was going to upload it at one point... 00:34:41 That would be AWESOME 00:34:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:34:47 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/Yggdrasil-linux-summer-94.JPG 00:35:00 -!- augur has joined. 00:35:01 FHS compliant! 00:35:10 elliott, hm 00:35:10 TeX! elvis and Emacs! 00:35:22 "A beta release was made on 18 February 1993.[4].[7] The beta's cost was US$50. LGX's beta release in 1993 contained the 0.99.5 version of the Linux kernel, along with other software from GNU and X.[7] By 22 August 1993, the Yggdrasil company had sold over 3100 copies of the LGX beta distribution.[8] 00:35:22 The production release version carried a pricetag of US$99." 00:35:24 Pricey! BUT WORTH IT 00:35:37 http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/yggdrasil/ 00:35:44 I GUESS WE DO NOT NEED MY FRIEND AFTER ALL. 00:35:52 He switched to Slackware quickly anyway. 00:36:06 He also has a NeXT box of some sort, the lucky bastard. 00:36:20 Vorpal: "MCC Interim Linux was a Linux distribution first released by Owen Le Blanc of the Manchester Computing Centre (MCC), part of the University of Manchester, England) in February 1992. MCC Interim Linux has the distinction of being the first Linux distribution capable of being independently installed on a computer.[1]" 00:36:25 pikhq: SLS wasn't the first, then. 00:36:35 hah 00:36:47 "Prior to its first release, the closest approximation to a Linux distribution had been H J Lu's "Boot-root" floppies. These were two 5¼" diskettes consisting of the kernel and the minimum tools required to get started. So minimal were these tools that to be able to boot from a hard drive required editing its master boot record with a hex editor.[4]" 00:37:03 omg i just realised XFree86 00:37:04 free 86 00:37:07 three eighty six 00:37:08 free eighty six 00:37:12 *immense groan* 00:38:32 pikhq: So wait, how did you assemble the USB stick? 00:38:38 elliott, you got that only now? 00:38:42 Vorpal: Yup. 00:38:49 elliott, this is like the largest wooosh of this channel ever :P 00:39:01 Vorpal: I thought it was "Free X running on the 86 platform"... since, like, 86 was quite a common suffix for x86 stuff. 00:39:09 The pronunciation pun... nope, never realised. 00:39:13 elliott: I made a FAT filesystem, syslinux'd it, copied the vmlinux, initrd.img, and the iso onto it, made an appropriate syslinux.cfg, and booted. 00:39:22 elliott, I think it was intended to be read both ways 00:39:33 pikhq: Care to tell me where I get the vmlinux and initrd.img from? :P Is it the... the hd-media thing? 00:39:39 Vorpal: Well, yeah. 00:39:42 Yeah. 00:39:56 pikhq: Could you give me your syslinux.cfg? I've never made one before >_> 00:40:03 pikhq: Also, did the... tarred thing not work? 00:40:07 The boot.img.gz. 00:40:14 elliott: It seems that this creates a not-installable package. 00:40:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinfoil_Hat_Linux 00:40:21 elliott: I didn't bother. 00:40:22 pikhq: Sweet :P 00:40:26 The syslinux.cfg, I don't recall. 00:40:33 elliott, anyway this woooosh is so big that it covers almost all of the wooshing ever done in this channel. Meaning you can mathematically ignore any woooshing done against me :P 00:40:34 Don't you have it plugged in? >_> 00:40:42 Nope. 00:40:42 Vorpal: It's not *that* big :P 00:40:49 I've never heard anyone pronounce it, after all. 00:40:52 elliott, worth a try though :P 00:41:01 elliott: It seems that this creates a not-installable package. 00:41:04 pikhq: Checkinstall automatically installs it. 00:41:09 No? 00:41:11 *checkinstall 00:41:12 elliott: Yes, and it fails to install that package. 00:41:29 pikhq: | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us 00:41:32 Well 00:41:38 pikhq: 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us 00:41:44 Hey, can you say <&2? 00:41:46 That would be cool. 00:41:47 Er, wait. 00:41:53 That's not what I mean. 00:41:55 But yeah, pikhq, that :P 00:42:05 elliott: Sooo. This sucks balls. 00:42:19 pikhq: 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us 00:42:30 pikhq: srsly, you're not the only user of these cards, there will be a solution :P 00:43:01 elliott: THERE IS A BUG REPORT ON IT AND HAS BEEN FOR A MONTH. 00:43:09 pikhq: YES BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO USE DEBIAN AND ALSO AMD CARDS 00:43:13 elliott: THE ONLY COMMENT IS "WELL, WORKS IN SID. CLOSING." 00:43:23 pikhq: THERE IS A BACKPORTS REPOSITORY FWIW 00:43:39 pikhq: Anyway, beats Gentoo :P 00:44:08 No, the fucking video drivers build in Gentoo. 00:46:51 pikhq: Chill 00:46:53 :| 00:48:13 Vorpal: it would so be easier to write a simple kernel than this shit :P 00:48:20 elliott, hah :P 00:48:39 elliott, <&2 would no do what you want, since it is an output stream 00:48:42 yeah 00:48:54 elliott, you *can* pipe in an input stream of course 00:49:25 "To install wine in Ubuntu Christian Edition, you simply enter apt-get install water." 00:49:52 elliott: Should I upgrade to sid? 00:49:52 not* 00:49:59 pikhq, backports? 00:49:59 elliott: BET-NEE-SD 00:50:08 pikhq: Do you like having as much breakage as Gentoo but with actual new software? 00:50:11 Vorpal: Does not exist for testing! 00:50:14 pikhq: If so, yes! If not, no. 00:50:14 * catseye takes deep breath and holds nose 00:50:15 pikhq, ouch 00:50:17 -!- catseye has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:50:30 elliott: Well, currently testing is exhibiting breakage. 00:50:37 elliott: Nay, brain damage. 00:50:37 pikhq: Try installing just the .deb from sid. 00:50:42 pikhq: It works in... some cases. 00:50:53 pikhq: http://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/ 00:51:11 Well, the only thing I want is a dkms package. It may just work. 00:51:11 elliott, do it from source deb, more reliable 00:51:20 pikhq: What Vorpal said. 00:51:37 pikhq: You'll probably want to install whatever gives you "debuild(1)". 00:51:40 *no quotes 00:51:43 That does all the crap for you. 00:51:46 elliott, I never been able to install a newer binary .deb on ubuntu. With source debs it sometimes worked 00:51:51 even worked quite often 00:52:31 elliott, huh? I just do apt-get source foo && cd foo && fakeroot debian/rules binary 00:52:43 elliott, I thought that was what you were supposed to do? 00:52:43 Vorpal: Well, yes. But debuild also does that for you :P 00:53:06 elliott, it is of course a screwy build system, especially if you need to patch something 00:53:17 elliott, because there are 10 different systems for patching series of patches 00:53:39 It's in devscripts. 00:53:48 - debuild: wrapper to build a package without having to su or worry 00:53:48 about how to invoke dpkg to build using fakeroot. Also deals 00:53:49 with common environment problems, umask etc. [fakeroot, 00:53:49 lintian, gnupg] 00:53:51 Vorpal: ^ 00:53:54 pikhq: ^ 00:54:12 elliott, 15 different automated tools for generating packages semi-automatically, of which 12 are broken enough that the result would be heavily patched by the package maintainer 00:54:23 and so on 00:54:33 at least both arch and gentoo are consistent in how packaging is done 00:54:59 Vorpal: There's only one way you're meant to do though really :P 00:55:01 *use 00:55:07 Vorpal: from SLS: 00:55:08 smaltalk.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 321K 00:55:19 elliott, it is a bit annoying when you need to patch the package :P 00:55:24 elliott, it happens I had to do that 00:55:27 it's GNU Smalltalk xD 00:55:30 happened* 00:55:35 | Copyright (C) 1990, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 00:55:40 elliott, things were smaller back then 00:55:51 also, more fun. 00:56:00 probably 00:56:03 they had fun we can only dream of 00:56:07 they never got anything done 00:56:08 but still 00:56:21 elliott, you mean, trying to sort out the IRQs for the ISA cards? 00:56:33 I... have never done that and hope to never have to. 00:56:42 I meant more like the kernel being buggy and gcc sucking (well it still does but). 00:56:48 elliott, nor have I, but I heard about that 00:56:54 it had to be done sometimes 00:57:14 elliott, ISA was very much not pnp 00:57:20 quite 00:57:33 It's sad how badly Linux/GNU/etc. have gone :( 00:57:47 Sure, they're all fundamentally terribly designed, but they could be a hell of a lot more fun, 00:57:48 *fun. 00:57:59 elliott, you mean, more ISA buses 00:58:04 Somewhere along the line someone decided to stop trying to do things differently from Windows and Mac OS. 00:58:11 indeed 00:58:31 elliott, TIME TO WORK ON elliottOS? 00:58:41 (not caps because I tab completed and was lazy) 00:58:51 Vorpal: elliottOS isn't even intended to be developed right now :P 00:59:01 Vorpal: I have to go through Mitosis first! 00:59:07 elliott, good point. It is intended to be planned 00:59:09 and re-planned 00:59:12 all the time 00:59:13 forever 00:59:16 Vorpal: Plan? 00:59:19 Hell, I haven't planned anything. 00:59:23 elliott, 8! 00:59:28 Yes, yes. 00:59:36 you could call it that 00:59:38 plan8 00:59:39 hm 00:59:45 plan10 would be better 00:59:51 "because the 9th one didn't work" 00:59:56 could be your slogan 00:59:57 Vorpal: It's the platonic perfect OS. There is no possible way I will name it after anything else. 01:00:01 -!- catseye has joined. 01:00:05 Even naming it something that's a word is questionable! 01:00:06 *GASP* 01:00:10 catseye: It works?!?!?! 01:00:13 no. 01:00:16 lawl 01:00:23 just comin' up for air. 01:00:24 elliott, what are you referring to? 01:00:31 Vorpal: ? 01:00:32 Vorpal: NetBSD. 01:00:40 elliott, oh catseye is playing with that? 01:00:47 Vorpal: "Playing" 01:00:51 Vorpal: He's trying to install it as his OS. 01:00:54 You don't PLAY with NETBSD. 01:01:02 catseye, oh? 01:01:05 NetBSD is ALL WORK. 01:01:05 catseye is a hardcore BSD mothafucka. 01:01:09 Don't diss his shit. 01:01:14 right 01:01:21 *BUSINESS 01:01:24 ALL BUSINESS. 01:01:26 catseye is a hardcore BSD mothafucka. <-- aka, playing with it 01:01:27 * Vorpal runs 01:01:29 That sounds much less stupid. 01:02:12 Vorpal: Dammit, now I want to make a nice little Unix kernel. 01:02:16 Nothing big and professional like gnu... 01:02:20 elliott, UNIX!? why on earth 01:02:25 elliott, XD 01:02:32 Vorpal: Because it's like linux 0.01 except I don't have to get Minix working! 01:02:47 And I get to BUSYCODE (like busywork but for code -- protected mode, gdt, etc.) 01:02:56 elliott, would 0.1 be so bad? 01:02:57 FMOMNBUWNS may or may not be unix, we're not sure. 01:03:01 elliott, also bochs 01:03:02 Vorpal: Yes. 01:03:04 elliott, tried it yet? 01:03:07 Vorpal: Not yet. 01:03:11 elliott, do it then 01:03:12 Vorpal: I might be installing Debian for chrissakes! 01:03:16 I'd like to decide that first :P 01:03:21 elliott, in bochs? 01:03:23 why on earth 01:03:27 would you install 01:03:28 Vorpal: ... no, on this :P 01:03:33 ah 01:03:51 I sure hope ~/Code fits into RAM. 01:03:57 Because, my migration plan: 01:04:01 - Boot Debian installer. 01:04:04 - Copy ~/Code to ramdisk. 01:04:09 - Install Debian, wiping out Ubuntu. 01:04:13 - Copy ~/Code back. 01:04:14 elliott, going from ubuntu? 01:04:14 - Reboot. 01:04:16 Vorpal: yeah 01:04:18 Vorpal: maybe 01:04:23 elliott, what is wrong with ubuntu? 01:04:26 depends if i can get a patched freetype :D 01:04:31 Vorpal: I got bored of it! Also, uh, uh. 01:04:38 elliott, you have separate /home 01:04:39 right? 01:04:41 I have software ADHD, dude. 01:04:44 Vorpal: No. No I don't. 01:04:54 And I never will, so nyah :P 01:04:57 elliott, now you realise why you should have had that 01:05:01 Not really. 01:05:05 elliott, *power failure while installing* 01:05:07 Vorpal: Wait, I have a USB stick. 01:05:10 I can just copy it onto there. 01:05:11 Duh. 01:05:12 elliott, better idea 01:05:19