00:00:39 oerjan, Swedish letter names make a lot more, leave a lot fewer questions unanswered <-- hey, why didn't you laugh!? 00:03:47 What is the order of pop the PC from "RTS" command on 6502, for making a fake instruction like "jmp [sound_addr_low,x]" (which I think is not a valid instruction)? 00:09:49 I'm not sure what the question asks; if you just mean the order of bytes in memory, if the stack pointers points to N, then the low byte of PC in RTS is read from N+1 and the high byte from N+2, after which the stack pointer will point to N+2. 00:10:59 Though the PC that was popped is also incremented once, too. 00:13:11 fizzie: OK. 00:13:36 (Because JSR, which is a three-byte instruction, pushes PC+2, the address of the last byte, to stack; so the increment corrects for that.) 00:14:02 * oerjan didn't connect it to Y = why 00:14:21 oerjan, you fail 00:14:32 also i think you accidentally the sense 00:14:33 So the order of pushing must be HIGH(n-1) and then LOW(n-1) if you want to use RTS to jump there? Is that it? 00:14:55 oerjan, um, Y do you think that? 00:15:36 zzo38: That should be it. (But I wouldn't trust me.) 00:15:37 make a lot more _what_? 00:15:48 oerjan, oh "sense" 00:15:55 oerjan, yeah indeed 00:15:59 oerjan: Make a lot more questions! 00:16:09 but also answer them! 00:16:13 Yes. 00:16:27 Based on the amount of ?s on the last few lines, they certainly seemed to make a lot of questions. 00:16:30 fizzie: The reason for these kind of question is to make improvment of PPMCK. 00:16:34 very talkative, swedish letters. 00:17:31 oerjan, yeah, just look at "i", "å" and "ö". They say as much as 13 English letters! 00:18:08 * oerjan senses something above his head 00:18:51 oerjan, "in", "river" (not exactly, between "river" and "stream"), "island" 00:18:58 $ echo -n 'inriverisland' | wc -c 00:18:59 13 00:19:08 bah 00:19:21 川島に 00:19:25 I can do the same for Japanese! 00:19:51 $ echo -n '川島に' | wc -c 00:19:51 9 00:19:54 $ echo -n 'åäö' | wc -c 00:19:54 6 00:19:59 (okay, so that is cheating) 00:20:07 You want wc -m. 00:20:23 pikhq, no, because that would look better for Japanese ;P 00:20:44 Vorpal: What do you think that does? 00:20:55 pikhq, -m? multibyte obviously 00:21:00 -c is byte count 00:21:00 zzo38: From what I've seen -- but I haven't seen much -- people more often seem to be mutating a JMP instruction instead of jumping via the stack. (RTS takes twice as long as a JMP to execute, 6 vs. 3, while PHA is only one cycle faster than STA with an abs address. It does save in amount of code, though.) 00:21:06 It prints the characters. 00:21:20 pikhq, eh? 00:21:24 The character count. 00:21:27 pikhq, yes 00:21:34 $ echo -n '川島に' | wc -m 00:21:34 3 00:21:40 $ echo -n 'åäö' | wc -m 00:21:41 3 00:21:44 pikhq, .... you completely missed the joke 00:21:59 wait, iåö 00:22:00 I meant 00:22:01 The thing I still haven't figure out yet on 6502 is the divide by three, though. And then I can make it have a conditional compile switch to tell it to compile a code to divide by 2 or by 3. (It needs to divide number as large as 0x07FF at most) 00:22:04 not åäö 00:22:16 You suck. 00:22:34 pikhq, because I meant a joke that went over your head? Okay *shrug* 00:23:02 zzo38: you might use a shifting loop 00:23:03 No, because you think iåö is the same as åäö. 00:23:07 Obviously. 00:23:09 pikhq, no I don't :P 00:23:12 pikhq, it was a typo 00:23:32 i is *quite* far from compose-o-a. 00:23:33 :D 00:23:36 oerjan: How do I use a shifting loop? 00:23:48 pikhq, well, yes but not so far if you have a ä key :P 00:23:51 pikhq, like I do 00:24:01 Vorpal: Everybody knows there's only one keyboard layout. 00:24:03 ONLY ONE. 00:24:06 `run echo -n '川島に' | wc -m 00:24:11 pikhq, yes, only the Swedish one 00:24:12 very true 00:24:22 Vorpal: Nay, the AMERICAN one! 00:24:25 WE INVENTED IT 00:24:31 EVERYTHING ELSE IS A LIE 00:24:58 Now I made a few new commands in PPMCK: * ? #MACRO #CUSTOM-TUNING Xc Xl Xm 00:25:44 9 00:26:34 FWIW, cc65's runtime division code is http://p.zem.fi/cc65-div -- it's very messy, but it's possible the udiv16by8a bit could be adapted to do a fixed divide-by-three. Don't have time to try to understand that right now, though. 00:26:46 zzo38: something equivalent to c = 3*32768; b=0; while (a) {if (a >= c) { a-=c; b++; } a <<= 1; b <<= 1; } 00:27:08 oh wait 00:27:19 longdivision? 00:27:23 not while (a), it needs to use an accurate count 00:28:05 what is b? 00:28:20 b is to collect the result 00:28:32 oh yeah, duh 00:28:46 and yes essentially long division 00:29:45 HackEgo: does this mean your locale is C or something? 00:29:55 night → 00:30:32 the loop should repeat 15 times i think for a 16-bit number (0x07ff would be less i guess, if you adjust c to fit) 00:30:44 catseye: Well, the C locale only does ASCII, sooo... I guess so. 00:31:18 `run echo $LANG 00:31:20 No output. 00:31:29 `run locale 00:31:33 LANG= \ LC_CTYPE="POSIX" \ LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" \ LC_TIME="POSIX" \ LC_COLLATE="POSIX" \ LC_MONETARY="POSIX" \ LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" \ LC_PAPER="POSIX" \ LC_NAME="POSIX" \ LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" \ LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" \ LC_ALL= 00:31:42 That's C locale, alright. 00:33:44 zzo38: oh and dividing by 2 is of course just a single shift 00:33:59 well i guess you know that 00:35:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:37:02 oerjan: Yes, dividing by 2 is just a single shift, but I need also divide by 3 as well 00:38:52 zzo38: OOC, what are you writing? 00:39:07 catseye: I am writing changes to PPMCK 00:39:34 hey that was _not_ out of character. pay attention! 00:39:40 In this case, it is divide a sixteen bit number by 2, so it does LSR and ROR 00:39:52 "PPMCK is a MML script-based NES/Famicom music composition utility." ? 00:40:09 catseye: Yes. That is what PPMCK is. 00:40:20 Oh gosh. OK. 00:40:28 It is a program to write music compiled into NSF 00:42:08 oerjan: HackEgo's the one out of character here. C locale, indeed! 00:44:03 that's not out of character, it still has 256 of them 00:44:07 PPMCK is not the only program for making music compiled into NSF, but it is one of the best one, in my opinion. 00:56:53 I saw the cc65-div code, how do I need use that for divide sixteen bit number by constant. 00:56:58 ? 01:00:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:22:33 okay I take it nobody has seen such a roguelike :) 01:22:43 would it be fun? 01:23:35 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 01:24:37 C locale? 01:24:49 C locale: The roguelike! 01:24:57 Also, what is "such a roguelike" 01:25:22 you are such, like a rogue 01:26:14 Sgeo, you were actually here when I described it :) 01:26:51 a multiplayer roguelike that remembers map changes 01:27:29 here != paying attention 01:27:46 I don't think I've ever seen a multiplayer roguelike before 01:27:56 yeah you were dizzy at the time :) 01:28:53 I have seen one, mangband 01:40:40 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:54:00 -!- augur has joined. 02:10:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:11:51 fizzie: ping 02:12:48 fizzie: you can probably blend the colours by *3 the colours and opacity:.33333 02:13:32 does anyone want to know thw owrst thing? 02:17:29 *the worst 02:17:36 Sgeo, oerjan, Gregor 02:17:38 THE WORST THING 02:17:43 Worst thing of what? 02:18:02 Iie îe いいえ イイエ 五五愛 02:18:10 LALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU 02:18:24 zzo38: in the world 02:18:27 okay pikhq 02:18:32 do you want to know the worst thing 02:18:36 you must it has ... destroyed me 02:18:46 Opposition to modern medicine? 02:19:02 elliott: Do you know what is the worst thing in the world? 02:19:03 * oerjan thinks pikhq said "no" 02:19:14 oerjan: I think you are correct 02:19:14 in a very impolite way 02:19:20 oerjan: 5 times, each in a different writing system for Japanese! 02:19:23 Ok, what's the worst thing in the world? 02:19:38 *second worst. You don't seem to be dead. 02:19:40 mannyokàna (man'yogana) is the craziest thing ever. 02:20:01 pikhq: I believe you. 02:20:09 elliott, are you ever going to explain? 02:20:10 Sgeo: this is worse then death. 02:20:14 *than 02:20:43 Incredible pain that will never go away for the rest of your life? 02:20:59 Is it... life? 02:21:17 zzo38: No. 02:21:19 Sgeo: Worse. 02:21:24 Sgeo: You're on Ubuntu right? 02:21:34 Windows 7 right now 02:21:44 Is it... dead people that are very large and take up too much space? 02:21:44 Sgeo: then you cannot know the pain 02:21:53 zzo38: no. i don't think that's a huge problem... 02:22:11 http://www.fixya.com/support/t1222056-simpletech_320gb_external_hard_drive <-- DECIDE 02:22:12 A dead person the size of the moon might be a huge problem. 02:22:14 Is it... people? 02:22:26 Dead person size of the sun would be worse. 02:22:27 Sgeo: OR PRECIOUS REAL ESTATE 02:22:28 Sgeo: Yes that is what I meant. 02:23:09 * Sgeo carves up oerjan to use as a house 02:23:21 elliott, describe it? 02:23:25 Sgeo: cannot. 02:23:28 must be experienced. 02:23:30 hey i'm not the size of the moon. or even a house. yet, anyhow. 02:23:48 it's really idiotic that they don't label it on the back of the case 02:23:59 elliott, well, surely there are things I'd need to do 02:24:07 catseye: you're on ubuntu right 02:24:36 catseye: oh btw there is an easy way to upgrade from ippepid bibex to current ubuntu totally safely but 02:24:38 i'll tell you tomorrow 02:24:40 too tired right now 02:24:56 wouldn't a dead person the size of the sun collapse into a black hole? 02:25:04 "ippepid bibex"?? 02:25:20 well i guess there is still fusible material. 02:25:25 Biblical LaTeX1 02:25:54 Pray to your TeXan God1 02:26:06 What is Biblical LaTeX1? 02:26:09 Dear keyboard: Please allow me to type ! 02:26:22 "ippepid bibex"?? 02:26:25 the intrepid bibexian. 02:27:06 The ONLY Christian typesetting environment 02:27:34 Users of anything else go straight to hell 02:27:48 I think the power supply to my ADSL modem will power the external HDD. Of course, that means I'll offlinify while backing up. 02:28:13 i sure hope i'll be able to stop watching the guild so i can go to bed 02:29:29 The Guild++ 02:29:39 It's just one more thing I can spoil you on >:D 02:30:41 yeah, uh 02:30:44 not a huge plotline really 02:30:47 it's just amusing 02:33:21 LaTeX (Biblical or not) is bloated and difficult to understand, but even Plain TeX has more things than needed. 02:34:13 insipid cortex 02:35:35 TeX is still the best typesetting system, though. 02:36:00 No it isn't. LaTeX is. 02:37:51 Maybe I should clarify that "Biblical LaTeX" was a joke.. 02:38:55 Curses, no USB cable! 02:39:09 GoReTeX 02:39:10 zzo38: what about Hermeneutic LaTeX? 02:39:24 or NyLoN? 02:39:43 But I still need to improve TeX, and I think it can be done with only adding a few commands: \progdef \maketoken \ifexecute \expandto \convlist \convbox \convtoks \dvibinary \pagex \pagey Hopefully this should be enough. 02:39:59 What are those things? 02:40:04 Gor or Gore? 02:40:11 zzo38: they are the best typesetting systems ever 02:40:19 How so? 02:40:42 it is difficult to say 02:41:08 Sgeo: There is actually justification for a sort of "Biblical" macro set for LaTeX. 02:41:16 OK... need... get... uzzb cable... 02:41:39 pikhq: And what is justification? What macros are needed? 02:42:02 pikhq: LATEX IS UNJUSTIFIABLE IT IS BAD 02:42:44 I hereby wipe my hands clean of any blood shed due to Biblical LaTeX 02:42:44 Sgeo: Bibles and other such critical works have particular, unique typesetting demands. Most *obviously* the need to handle chapter/verse notations in a certain way, cross-references, and footnotes. 02:42:54 zzo38: I need to ask you a question. 02:43:05 zzo38: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? 02:43:06 elliott: OK 02:43:11 Though this isn't *unique* to the Christian Bible, it's the most common such work. 02:43:24 Ah 02:43:32 elliott: I don't know. 02:43:40 zzo38: But what are your thoughts on the matter? 02:44:00 Have *you* ever really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? 02:44:07 * oerjan imagines zzo38 understanding the question perfectly 02:44:36 well zzo38 does have a certain clarity of notions about him 02:44:40 it is only to be expected 02:45:05 elliott: Do you mean what I look more like or do you mean the book? 02:45:22 zzo38: I mean whether you have really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. 02:45:56 elliott: I sometimes change my decision. 02:46:08 zzo38: That... I agree. 02:46:23 * Sgeo blinks 02:46:31 OK, now we agree. 02:47:11 zzo38: Personally, I have occasionally reall been far even as decided to use even go want to do that, but I'm never sure whether to go throughg with it and look more like as my desires tell me to, you know? 02:47:52 Fucken has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like how do they work? 02:48:05 Sgeo: Ah, Christopher Fucken, inventor of Mornington Crescent? 02:48:14 elliott: Yes, I know. I sometimes change my opinion in future, so I don't want to change something permanently until I am more sure, I think. 02:48:24 After whom the Fucken A manoeuvre is named. 02:48:33 zzo38: Agreed. 02:49:18 elliott: Can you play Mornington Crescent? If you make an illegal move do you have to discard 2 cards? 02:49:50 zzo38: 3, actually; 3 1/2 in the Amended Uncrossreferenced Edition 1667 of the King's Guard. 02:49:55 That one's a bit screwy though. 02:49:59 I don't like the rule in Mornington Crescent that causes the rules to change if you are playing the game on Sunday. 02:50:14 zzo38: That's only when playing with Whorffhotridge extensions, and nobody does that. 02:50:18 Or maybe that is not the standard edition, I don't know. 02:50:21 Well, Martkin Plink does, but he can do whatever he wants. 02:50:30 I don't know a lot of the rules. 02:50:45 Isn't there a rule allowing different players to use different rules? 02:50:55 Sgeo: only when you're not a turnip 02:51:30 I quote 5.6.7/987§33.2 in the Dewy Duodecimal numbering: 02:51:40 (King Jam's Edition) 02:52:42 "Iff that Sgeo is't rightly a turnippe, play shall proceed whereby all players share one sette of rules. Contrariwise, players shall maintain their owne rulesett as desirede." 02:53:12 or in the 1998 Modern Amended & Revised Almanac Publication: 02:53:14 Didn't you just make up that rule now? 02:53:38 "If Sgeo is a turnip, all players shall play by the same set of rules. However, if he is not, all players can maintain their own ruleset as they see fit." 02:53:53 zzo38: Nope; you can check your physical copy if you want. It's in volume 55.29 of King Jam's. 02:54:05 And you know that the Modern Amended publication is in a single volume. 02:54:45 Sgeo has of course chosen his nick after the famous MC player. 02:54:53 elliott, you helped with some of the revisions, iirc? 02:55:00 oerjan: you didn't know? he *is* that Sgeo! 02:55:04 very different in-game persona, i agree 02:55:06 o sh... 02:55:16 oerjan: yeah we are in esteemed company 02:55:32 Sgeo: well. an amendment here or there in the 2007 edition. 02:55:45 just clarifying footnotes 02:55:48 and i think one slight reword 02:55:59 youngest person to have a contribution accepted to a respected publication of the MC ruleset, i believe 02:56:21 Awesome 02:58:00 Sgeo: how did you use the Tradranikas Gambit in your last game against Yurtsin Robonov? 02:58:04 has anyone ever used it that late in the game? 02:58:15 you basically had to reset half the game to initial condition... 02:58:17 I believe you just made up most of these rules, but then, I think many people make up their own rules for Mornington Crescent because they don't know how to play, so that is why they make up rules. Of course there are standards, but every time I have seen someone play they always add their own rules. 02:58:21 but i guess it's the other half that matters, right? 02:58:37 zzo38: as i said, check your physical copy if you want a verification 02:59:07 I don't actually have a physical copy. I don't live in England. 03:00:09 Have... uzzb... cable. Fhew. 03:00:30 zzo38: you could mail one from Taupe House 03:00:32 *mail order 03:00:41 their website is down right now though and i don't have the address to hand 03:01:11 Well, I think I was very fortunate to recall the Milardton's Maneuver. I almost did the Irevocrev gamble, whichh would have screwed me over 03:01:12 that'd be the two-volume restructuring of the Modern Amended publication (colloquially the "Taupe Amended" edition); one of my favourites 03:01:18 the Modern Amended format is a little too cramped I think 03:01:23 I would need also to get a map of Mornington Crescent, I suppose. And if they changed things in that area over time, you would need to decide and agree on whether to use the old map or new map. 03:01:25 and that book, wow, not good for your lap! 03:01:38 Sgeo: whichhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 03:02:03 [PDF] 03:02:05 bibleref.sty: a LaTeXe package for typesetting bible references 03:02:21 i.e. it exists 03:03:45 oerjan: didn't you do some work on mathematical models of subsets of Mornington Crescent? 03:03:53 any progress to a grand unified theory? haha, i wish :) 03:04:06 they always seem to get so far and then there's that little mechanic that brings the whole thing crashing down 03:04:07 a shame 03:04:09 true shame 03:04:50 and when he shows up he always asks me for a cigarette even though he KNOWS i don't smoke 03:05:30 catseye: i... yes totally 03:07:19 actually i've never even played the game. 03:07:42 I once got within a block of Mornington Crescent only to discover it was actually another player's Mornington Crescent Decoy (although he had no knowledge of this.) 03:07:43 elliott: I doubt that, everyone plays by different rules anyways so how do you know for sure? However, I have an idea: Real maps sometimes have trap streets. So, perhaps you can make a specific set of trap streets for the game, which are designed to make the game mathematically correct. 03:07:46 just read a bit about it. 03:08:10 oerjan: as we all know that doesn't stop mathematicians from modelling things :) 03:08:45 zzo38, I've been turniped once 03:08:48 oerjan: but... really? weren't you listed as one of the (admittedly very numerous!) coauthors on Tableau et al.'s famous 1997 paper? 03:10:58 Then he used his "Grateful Dead" token (+2) to escape the sewers of Paris, and made a beeline for Erste Lage Spätlese. I didn't have enough bonus crumbs at the time to prevent such a move... 03:12:51 catseye: Were you playing the variant using the map of the entire world (and not only England)? (I don't remember what that variant was called, but I have read of its existence) 03:12:54 catseye: No, that's just when the Nazis invaded your house. 03:12:58 Just your house. Inexplicably. 03:13:00 Keep up grandpa. 03:13:07 i think it is possible that i'd _heard_ of the game by 1997. so, no. 03:13:25 oerjan: oh it was Orjan Johansen 03:13:25 i'm not english either, after all. 03:13:29 oerjan: easy mistake to make 03:14:04 elliott: Were you playing, in that round? You might have been, there were a lot of people involved. 03:14:45 zzo38: Well, he wasn't a particularly good player. Perhaps he got lost. 03:14:53 catseye: i have played a horribly low number of games for the amount of rubbish i know 03:15:05 but, i think i might have been in the really big one in... 03:15:10 when was it 03:15:11 2008? 03:15:14 catseye: O, OK. 03:15:14 yeah 03:15:30 catseye: oh that was the one with the subplot theme of "a great escape" right? 03:15:36 that would explain Then he used his "Grateful Dead" token (+2) to escape the sewers of Paris, and made a beeline for Erste Lage Spätlese. I didn't have enough bonus crumbs at the time to prevent such a move... 03:15:48 i hate it when the subplots get too involved though. it's a gimmick. 03:16:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:18:30 Well, now that oerjan's gone, I can reveal to you the truth. This wasn't a game of Mornington Crescent, at all. This was a horrible experiment gone wrong, on a mailing list on the early internet... 03:18:56 The idea was that we could create a game exactly like Mornington Crescent using only our minds. 03:18:58 I know right? 03:19:08 * catseye shakes his head 03:19:12 We were so foolish... 03:20:12 catseye: Yes, I heard of that variant, I think it was "Blind Mornington Crescent" and you have to just imagine the map, you do not have a physical map..... it is difficult if you cannot agree on the rules 03:20:54 Or do you mean some other variant? 03:21:00 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 03:22:40 zzo38: I will have to tell you some other time. Right now I must use the power supply of my ADSL modem to power my external HDD to back up this partition to have some confidence I won't lose the data when I recover Windows (Vista!) on the *other* partition so I can see if I can burn CD's from Windows maybe (I won't) but it will put me in a position to install a better OS where Ibex used to be. 03:23:00 See you on the flipside, knock on wood. 03:23:04 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). 03:23:06 OK. 03:23:56 -!- sftp_ has joined. 03:25:45 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:25:45 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:25:46 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:25:46 -!- elliott has joined. 03:27:40 Another change I made in PPMCK is to make the header strings say "" if it is not set, in accordance with the standard. (The old version put the field names there instead.) 03:27:42 -!- storkbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:28:26 zzo38: I suggest you try the Stork Press' -- hey, bet cpressey's bot is named after them -- annual newbie games. There's information in the Taupe Amended edition of the rules (in the first appendix). Very good; I started off there. 03:28:43 The people there are great, they'll help you get started with tactics etc. in no time. Truly the discerning newbie's choice. 03:28:51 Well worth getting in to. 03:28:54 I'm going now; goodnight. Bye. 03:28:55 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 03:29:44 I can try..... 03:30:07 -!- catseye has joined. 03:30:13 Well that didn't work. 03:31:01 What OS are you trying to install, now? 03:31:07 The plug fits, and powers it on, but the unit does nothing. Possibly toast. 03:31:27 ToastOS! 03:31:29 zzo38: I want to start with recovering the Windows partition on this laptop. 03:31:47 I have no guarantees this won't wipe out the Ubuntu partition... 03:31:55 So I'm looking to back up first. 03:32:11 So you want to have dual boot? 03:33:52 I wonder if you know who Damian Yerrick is 03:34:31 zzo38: I have a dual boot, just, one of the OSes involved won't boot :) 03:34:51 I have not heard that name, so far as I can recall 03:35:13 Oops! That is a mistake. Another choice is to replace the hard drive with a new one, and use the old one as the backup 03:36:13 There are many Linux distributions, Ubuntu is not the only one, so, you can pick whichever one you want, or even write your own 03:37:53 The main obstacle, at present, is that the DVD-R drive will not R. If that worked, I would just burn my data to some blank DVDs and go ahead and experiment. 03:38:53 If it wasn't a laptop, I would consider swapping the hard drive. But, it's a laptop. 03:39:09 Maybe I should just get a new damned computer. 03:39:47 Laptop hard drives can be swapped too, y'know. 03:41:29 Yeah, but then I'd have to get another laptop harddrive to swap it with. And I don't like laptops, and this laptop has problems, as well. 03:41:45 I should just try to build another desktop system, probably. 03:43:05 OK, try to build another desktop system. 03:45:45 I also have a question about PXELINUX, in case you know about it. I have written a module for it and it will resolve hostnames but the MAC address doesn't work, do you know what is wrong? (This is for a program I am writing at Free Geek) 03:49:29 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:50:06 I appear to have about 9 gigabytes available on my web host. I could upload all the files I care about... 03:52:25 zzo38: PXE is cool. But I have no idea. 03:52:51 I appear to be missing about half of one of my molars. Fantastic. How'd that happen? 04:01:20 http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2005/HCR029.html Okay, some days I absolutely love ridiculous acts of legislature. 04:03:14 my tax... dollars... at... 04:03:22 * catseye ::: 04:03:52 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:04:50 -!- wareya has joined. 04:08:58 zzo38: when using Unix, do you pass the -h flag to du and df, or do you find it easier to read if you don't? 04:09:41 catseye: I have never used those commands. 04:10:17 really. 04:10:30 How about ls? 04:11:04 For ls it's a little less useful for me to use -h. 04:11:10 Unless the files are gigantic. 04:11:12 I have used ls. I have never used the -h flag of ls. 04:16:59 catseye: I use -h habitually. 04:17:04 -!- catseye has changed nick to DrNinja. 04:17:54 zzo38: You've never used du or dh? 04:17:56 Erm, df 04:18:21 Yes, I have not used those commands. 04:18:46 I *just* now used dh, accidentally. 04:19:01 Apparently, dh is part of debhelper. 04:20:22 Alas. 04:20:31 zzo38: You must dislike knowing anything about disk usage. 04:20:45 This is a test, this is only a test. 04:21:15 Uhhh.... urgent question 04:21:22 How do I stop streaming in VLC? 04:21:44 C-c 04:22:09 as much as I like this nick, it is silly. 04:22:11 -!- DrNinja has changed nick to catseye. 04:22:48 It was insufficiently Irish. 04:24:18 And "catseye" is sufficiently so? 04:24:24 Begorrah! 04:24:46 Now, you want nekonome. That's "Irish", right? 04:24:50 pikhq: No, I just never needed to know about disk usage when using Unix. 04:25:25 pikhq: The "neko" part suggests it is highly "Irish". I don't know about the rest. 04:25:34 catseye: :P 04:26:18 /nick PeterPackrat 04:32:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:33:21 I should totally be running LoseThos. 04:33:40 I... I would score bravery points, but I think that's all. 04:33:47 Oh! I would get to hear GOD MUSIC 04:34:02 OK, well, one thing at a time. 04:35:44 Surely the music could be converted to a format playable on a sane OS? 04:36:41 Surely it could. Surely the music could be generated on a sane OS to start with. 04:37:28 But, what's the word -- circumstantially, it's not. 04:37:42 Oh, circumstantialness. 04:37:45 Dear Youtube player: you have a buffer of 1/3rd of the video. YOU DON'T NEED TO STOP THE VIDEO AND BUFFER SOME MORE. 04:38:19 Oh dear yes. Youtube got all wacky "you are sophisticated stupid" once Google got its mitts on it. 04:39:44 Arrgh 3.5 hours to upload 0.5 G of stuff to my webspace. 04:41:15 LoseThos.com was hosted on Yahoo? 04:41:22 How does that even make sense? 04:41:40 http://www.losethos.com/blog.html 04:42:59 Yahoo offers web hosting of some sort 04:43:06 But forget that. 04:43:08 http://www.amazon.com/Cognitive-Connection-Thought-Language-Machine/dp/0131396196 04:43:13 You need to read this book. 04:43:17 It is an awesome book. 04:43:23 It contains like 50,000 errors. 04:43:32 But it is otherwise an awesome book. 04:43:52 Aaah, Losethos. 04:44:11 I think I like the idea of a simple OS to toy around on 04:44:16 I have thought of putting together an "esoteric reading list" sometime, and this would be on it. 04:44:18 The OS that concludes that the 80s were awesome. 04:44:42 Especially the mono-lingual support. 04:44:50 They were awesome for getting kids to learn how to program 04:44:59 (I think) 04:45:00 (thank god it's not propogating STILL MORE incompatible encodings) 04:45:17 http://www.youtube.com/user/losethos 04:46:12 love how the window titles CONSTANTLY SCROLL 04:47:12 The "lyrics". The hell? 04:47:20 -!- Epona has joined. 04:47:32 Back to Joco. 04:47:44 There's only one way to find out if those are random or not, pikhq. 04:47:47 Better take the plunge. 04:48:01 Well, hmm 04:48:03 Fuck no. The crazy might be contagious. 04:48:03 Randomly ordered 04:48:28 http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Software-Tales-Community/dp/0195121236/ <-- this would be awesome book #2 on my reading list. 04:48:42 fwiw, I finally have a compuuter capable of running LoseThos 04:49:20 I'm not sure what else would go on it, though. So much is not really weird enough. 04:49:42 "Escher, Goedel, Bach" goes on my "read it, ok, but then please burn it" list. 04:50:06 "LoseThos will never have networking, other 04:50:07 graphics modes, or USB support, unless USB is required for keyboards and mice. 04:50:07 What else is there? I'll have to find something. I might do applications, I 04:50:07 guess. 04:50:07 " 04:50:08 Goedel, Escher, Bach, is probably the real order. 04:50:15 eep, sorry 04:50:29 I guess he might do applications. 04:50:31 I guess I can't run it, then, unless I do some weird dual-boot thingy 04:50:33 But why? 04:51:00 Oh wait 04:51:02 "LoseThos is not for pathetic hardware -- it's 64-bit and multicored. That's a 04:51:03 common misconception." 04:51:27 non-multicolored hardware EXISTS? 04:51:52 (you know what i mean when I asked that) 04:53:27 Sgeo: Multi-CORED 04:53:31 Is different! 04:53:35 Oh 04:53:43 btw 04:53:43 >.> 04:53:48 Roger Penrose. 04:54:02 I actually thought it was a typo 04:54:05 Need to ask elliott what he thinks of Roger Penrose, wen I see him next. 04:54:07 * Sgeo facepalms at self 04:54:24 @note elliott catseye wants to know what you think of Roger Penrose 04:54:31 Dammit 04:54:36 !note elliott catseye wants to know what you think of Roger Penrose 04:54:45 (/me thinks Roger Penrose is a GEN-YOO-INE CRAZY PERSON btw) 04:54:56 Sgeo: it's @tell and the bot's not here 04:55:00 Ah 04:55:08 I need to rewrite it in Go 04:55:18 For my own incomprehensible reasons 04:55:26 -!- Epona has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:55:50 Rewrite it in Factor! 04:56:04 Ooooooh. 04:56:19 Oh, I wish I could. 04:56:30 Maybe I can... 04:56:42 I want to write it in something really wrong. 04:57:12 I don't know whether to say "There's nothing wrong with Factor" or not 04:57:23 I keep gravitating towards R, because it is popular (amongst statisticians,) but wrong oh so wrong for just about everything else. 04:57:48 I don't even know if you could do a bot, in it. Probably... 04:57:57 (with nc's support) 04:58:04 Coq! 04:58:13 HAHAHA 04:58:39 That's quite drôle. 04:59:30 I'm still worried about where the missing half of my molar went, though. I mean, damn! That's a tooth! There shouldn't be a HOLE there. 04:59:41 Well, dentist appt on the 20th... 05:01:42 There is this book of papers, in celebration of some anniversary of the publication of Turing's paper about Turing machines, I think. It has some interesting papers in it. It would be #3 on my reading list. But I can't find it. 05:02:02 One of the papers is by Penrose, and it's an early version of his "Shadows of the Mind" bullshit. 05:02:16 And his arguments are obviously fallacious. 05:02:44 "You can't duplicate someone's consciousness, because gee, I can't imagine that!" sort of stuff. 05:03:16 The other papers are OK. Not all great, but interesting. 05:05:51 http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Turing-Machine-Half-Century-Computerkultur/dp/3211826378 05:05:54 i think that's the one 05:06:07 1937 -> 1987 05:06:54 wish i had some nachos about now 05:08:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:09:40 What is the difference between "Alt" and "Alt Gr"? 05:10:51 catseye: Alt Gr chooses an alternate symbol set. It's like a different dimension of shift. 05:11:21 Gregor: except I've never seen it ever never do any such thing. 05:11:36 It just does alt. 05:11:47 meta-Lctrl-J 05:11:47 catseye: You're an American, aren't you? 05:11:50 ???!? 05:11:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:11:56 catseye: How did you even FIND a keyboard with Alt Gr? 05:12:04 Gregor: CANADIAN, thankyouverymuch. 05:12:10 Gregor: It's on this laptop! 05:12:17 Canada: Still America's hat. 05:12:28 Along with dedicated $ and Euro keys, it seems. 05:12:45 Which do not do anything under Ubuntu, it seems. 05:12:58 It's an Acer Aspire 3680-2354 05:12:59 catseye: Well, if it doesn't activate an alternate character set, then that's because you have it configured to use a non-international keyboard layout :P 05:13:27 Probably so 05:16:40 it should fuckin have a scrollbar!!! that's obvious. yay you have no idea what i'm talking about 05:17:40 i mean when you have a window full of icons that is half off the screen 05:18:04 * catseye is chilly, gets sweater 05:21:01 pypy 05:22:13 It's great how there's so much code out there that is just completely useless and forgettable. 05:22:45 The day will come, the cherry blossoms will fall, and no one will care about your code. 05:23:04 Ah, code rot. 05:23:26 "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despire". 05:23:29 ... 05:23:34 s/despire/despair/ 05:25:37 <3 it all though. 05:27:06 -!- augur has joined. 05:29:13 There's so much CODE out there! Did Turing ever have an inlkling (1938!) that it would be like this? Somewhere, right now, a C program is falling through a switch case that the author never intended it to. 05:30:03 It is a bug. But the consequences aren't costing the owner of the code *very much* money. So it's not being fixed. 05:30:24 It's in the backlog (maybe -- if it's been noticed.) It might get into the sprint someday. 05:31:20 *inkling 05:36:53 OK -- this would be #4 (is it?) on my "esoteric reading list": 05:36:55 http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/ 05:39:06 for instance http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/haxorec54KB.jpg 05:42:19 but i should say, 05:42:24 i think, 05:42:32 history, cruel as it is, 05:42:41 will remember us, among these cherry blossoms, 05:42:48 as the composers of this time. 05:43:16 maybe #5 should be Hesse's "Glass Bead Game" 05:43:44 the merge of mathematics and music as art as we know it is becomes obsolete. 05:43:54 *merging 05:44:23 THEN AGAIN, I AM QUITE DURNK, SO OK? 05:44:29 catseye: ORLY? 05:44:34 pikhq: http://poll.fm/2c4e9 (So anonymous :P ) 05:48:23 ... Wait, I think I meant 7. Dammit. 05:48:53 You need a higher sample group. 05:49:13 SHOCKINGLY, random computer scientist in Indi-aaaa-na doesn't have many fans :P 05:50:20 You should position yourself as an up-and-coming composer instead. 05:51:57 Gregor, Opus 12 05:51:58 My grandmother has become obsessive and weird about op. 13 mov. 1. She wants me to sell it. Or something. Idonno. Apparently all I have to do is write something in a major key to placate her. 05:52:04 Sgeo: NOT VALID 05:52:21 =P 05:53:02 That's my write-in vote 05:53:25 ...you can't see the write-ins, can you? 05:53:29 Yes. 05:53:52 I only put "other" there so people write in ZEE[1-5] or GM1 or some weird stuff I've forgotten about. 05:53:55 ... Dammit. 05:54:04 I should have asked for a rerecording of Op. 1. 05:54:05 :P 05:54:33 pikhq: I actually probably could find op. 1 ... 05:54:39 Damn, I should have said Zee5. Or whatever oneo f those it is that I like. 05:54:45 I should ask my mom if she has a VHS of it lying around somewhere. 05:54:55 Who the hell wrote "woodwind quintet ftw" X_D 05:54:56 *X-D 05:55:03 Gregor: You said that it was lost forever, though. 05:55:07 Gregor: Clearly, you lie. 05:55:12 pikhq: I do lie. 05:55:18 I'm certain Miss Zarves would love to hear Opus 12 05:55:19 pikhq: It also probably is lost forever. 05:55:19 Gregor: HAHAH I haven't even HEARD your window stuff. 05:55:23 Gregor: And should make a recording of Op. 1 through 4, just so we can mock your suck. 05:55:23 Err, woodwind stuff. 05:55:30 Yet I voted fo it. 05:56:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:56:05 Gregor: Hmm. Kill Yourself? 05:56:10 POLLS IN THE INTERNET = ATTRACT IGNORAT OPIONS 05:56:11 ... Naah, that just needs someone to cover it. 05:56:16 Wow. 05:56:27 pikhq: Yeah, needs someone with a voice that is not my voice. 05:56:35 Srsly 05:56:43 We. Want. Opus. Twelve. 05:56:48 We. Want. Opus. Twelve. 05:56:52 Sgeo: If by "we" ... you mean "you" 05:56:56 Err 05:57:01 Actually you mean "I" 05:57:04 But yeah 05:57:09 Dude, Gregor's low-opus-numbers can't be 10x worse than my low-opus-numbers. 05:57:16 Same for DCVOGLLMRCMCDP. :P (nice acronym, BTW) 05:57:28 catseye: I guarantee his are significantly better than mine. 05:57:31 As I don't have any. 05:57:34 All highly repetitive and awful SID tunes on the commodore 64. 05:57:42 The power of being a performer but not a composer. :P 05:58:06 With cheesy titles, which Gregor staunchy avoids with... antiseptic opus numbers. 05:58:19 Op. 13 has titles in it! 05:58:28 catseye: I avoid titles not because I don't like good titles, but because I'm title-incompetent. 05:58:29 Nocturne in Three and Finale in Three. 05:58:48 Gregor: Well demonstrated. 05:58:49 Those come close to being titles, I suppose. 05:58:49 :) 05:59:07 I've definitely got them on title tag. 05:59:09 My friend Eric keeps asking me for UNIX commands to turn into titles. 05:59:25 Still, it's not like "Death and the Maiden" and so. 05:59:46 Gregor: If you can make a piece for which fdisk would be an appropriate title, you might win at music. 05:59:55 Erm. 05:59:56 fsck 05:59:56 That. 06:00:20 http://www.aaronshep.com/rt/RTE32.html 06:00:27 That is... so... not right. 06:00:29 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:00:30 How isn't this a major, major copyright violation/ 06:00:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:00:45 There is a definite split here. 06:01:09 Either "fdisk" is the worst ever title for a piece of music, because you are being pretentiously geeky, or 06:01:27 "fdisk" is a beautiful title, because you have captured it exactly. 06:01:28 Good luck. 06:01:36 GOOD LUCK. 06:02:35 Sgeo: ? 06:02:35 catseye: Obviously, I want him to capture it exactly. 06:02:43 GOOD LUCK. 06:03:17 Sgeo: "Story copyright © 1985 Louis Sachar. Script copyright © 1993, 2003, 2005 Aaron Shepard. Produced by permission of Avon Books, a division of the Hearst Corporation. Scripts in this series are free and may be copied, shared, and performed for any noncommercial purpose, except they may not be posted online without permission." 06:03:22 And it's on Aaron Shepard's website. 06:03:42 It is not a copyright violation because the copyright holders approve. 06:03:52 Tautological but true. 06:04:11 It's a tautology ... AND YET IT'S TRUE! 06:04:13 Schubert is OK but Beethoven is way better. 06:04:41 I don't think I've read the first book 06:04:58 I've read Wayside School Gets a Little Stranger, and a bit of the math one 06:05:05 Gregor: :D 06:05:21 eine kleine pimpmusik 06:05:22 (I skipped over the chapter that was talking about feminine underwear. I was a kid, and it made me uncomfortable) 06:05:47 Sgeo: The book touch you in naughty places? 06:05:55 `addquote eine kleine pimpmusik 06:06:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uOxOgm5jQ4 06:07:02 ...there had to have been more stories than were on this page 06:07:11 Gregor: wakka wakka wakka chow-wow 06:07:16 244| eine kleine pimpmusik 06:07:17 I guess that's why this script is online 06:08:14 ...there were THREE books? 06:08:23 (not counting the math one) 06:09:04 The prof teaching the sight-singing course always wore long-sleeved sweaters... we conjecture that this was to conceal the needle tracks 06:09:11 *conjectured 06:10:55 hole where outside part of molar supposed to be! 06:12:15 R.I.P. catseye's tooth 06:12:32 Or at least, part of tooth 06:13:08 It was abducted by aliens! 06:19:51 In this state, my music goes by waay too quick 06:20:46 Sgeo: Commodore 64? 06:20:51 Gregor: Commodore 64? 06:21:08 I had a C64. 06:21:11 * Gregor remembers fondly. 06:21:47 Actually, like most other people who had a C64, I had a C128. 06:22:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv6Ewqx3PMs 06:23:05 Song is not great, but I remember the video. Cute puppet. 06:23:58 Gregor: I'm not sure what to make of the C64 now. I had a genuine C64, to start. Then a C64C as well (the power supply on those was more reliable.) 06:25:38 My earliest music, though -- written as SIDPIC songs. 06:26:11 circle-triangle-underscore, EPIC, wide X 06:28:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-EcasIakX4 -- MSeq sounds like something you'd do to a Monad 06:29:07 WELL IT DOES 06:30:58 Typelevel strictness? 06:35:29 ... 06:36:00 MY ANSWER TO THIS is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4n_zZ4TZ48 06:36:03 Someone reverse engineered Nethack's PRNG... And then logged onto a public server, killed himself on the first level by kicking a wand of wishing, three times a day. 06:36:25 pikhq: Uhhhhh 06:36:33 http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath Yes. 06:36:46 Gregor: He could have done a bunch of ascensions, but that's funnier. 06:38:47 Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that. 06:38:54 Awesome. 06:40:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:40:11 We are all pretty smart here, and we consistently apply it to pretty useless things. 06:40:18 Hi zzo38! 06:40:20 Yup. 06:40:39 catseye: You are probably right..... that is one of the things done in esolangs. 06:42:35 I got the subroutine code working, using the PHA and RTS and stuff. Whoever told me was correct. 06:44:47 zzo38: About the divide-by-3? cool. 06:45:21 catseye: No, not the divide-by-3. But my other question about how the PC is returned from the stack, worked. 06:45:29 zzo38: Ah. 06:46:09 (The emulator I use allows memory view function to work even for .NSF files, which is helpful that I can see that it is working. 06:47:05 I am sitting here, inebriated, writing nothing myself, listening to Mendelsohnn's violin concerto in E minor in amazement. 06:48:27 Why? 06:48:38 also, do not pass go, do not collect 200 zorkmids 06:48:46 It looks like you are writing this message, isn't it? 06:49:02 that's wrt the wowdeath thing 06:49:17 I am still not quite sure how to make the divide by three. 06:49:28 I collected 290 zorkmids! how unfortunate. 06:50:01 * catseye pays it back, with interest 06:50:54 and i'm off, cya 06:51:51 interest. 06:51:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:53:15 By looking at the PPMCK codes, I see a lot of codes JSR followed by RTS, but I though JMP should be usually just as good, isn't it? 06:54:37 zzo38: Yep. "Tail call"s! 06:56:43 btw, I forgot who aksed, but... I got a copy of "ML for the Working Programmer" -- good introduction to functional programming, because it doesn't dwell on the trivial parts for too long, and it gets into some interesting implementations, like a lambda calculus interpreter, 06:56:58 good night, 06:57:05 There is another way that works: http://sprunge.us/NYhO 07:13:37 -!- augur has joined. 07:25:11 If I can make it divide by three, then I can make it the codes with semicolons to work correctly. http://sprunge.us/KFZW 07:28:16 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:45:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:36:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:36:21 -!- augur has joined. 08:41:55 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:41:56 hello 08:52:07 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[afk]. 09:04:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 09:05:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:05:18 -!- augur has joined. 09:22:12 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:23:09 -!- sshc has joined. 09:44:59 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:04:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:54 -!- augur has joined. 10:11:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:13:45 "By 1992 that same company'reshaped into Outukumpu Metals Group (OMG; Cleveland)'posted sales of $200 million." 10:13:49 yes, a company called OMG 10:16:26 asie[afk]: have i mentioned my new company LULZ? 10:16:44 its a daughter company of my previous company WTFBBQ 10:20:41 but the OMG one is real 10:20:54 i haven't heard of a company called WTFBBQ 10:32:50 Outokumpu sounds morelikely than Outukumpu. 10:48:22 -!- tombom has joined. 11:23:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:36:25 -!- aloril has joined. 11:39:05 guys 11:39:16 do you know any Brainf**k code that can be used as a benchmark for interpreters 11:46:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:17:14 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:30:55 -!- aloril has joined. 12:35:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:15:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:18:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:19:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:20:27 do you know any Brainf**k code that can be used as a benchmark for interpreters <-- that mandelbrot one? 13:20:38 asie[afk], it depends on exactly what you want to measure. 13:21:49 lostking can be useful to measure how well it handles large code, but it isn't especially computation intensive, the mandlebrot one is not very large (well, for being brainfuck that is), but is quite computation intensive 13:22:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:47:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:55:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:56:44 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:09:50 -!- aloril has joined. 14:29:54 -!- elliott has joined. 14:30:06 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:31:08 19:36:13 There are many Linux distributions, Ubuntu is not the only one, so, you can pick whichever one you want, or even write your own 14:31:16 catseye: so did you write your own? 14:31:36 or are you stuck into the false monochotomy of Ubuntu?!?! 14:36:58 20:54:05 Need to ask elliott what he thinks of Roger Penrose, wen I see him next. 14:37:01 more detailed question plz 14:37:47 21:11:56 catseye: How did you even FIND a keyboard with Alt Gr? 14:37:51 UK keyboards have alt gr 14:38:14 21:23:26 "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despire". 14:38:17 despire, new favourite word 14:38:19 elliott: Yes, but catseye is not in the UK. 14:38:26 And US keyboards do not. 14:38:27 Gregor: doesn't mean he hasn't ever been 14:40:51 21:58:28 catseye: I avoid titles not because I don't like good titles, but because I'm title-incompetent. 14:40:56 Archaeology on a Summer's Rapey Afternoon 14:41:11 Speaking of title-incompetent ... 14:41:23 Gregor: That's Opus 14's title. 14:41:25 You must 14:41:32 I shall not. 14:41:38 Fine 14:41:51 Gregor: Theme from "Tarski and Hutch" 14:43:00 Gregor: C'mon, that is an amazing title. 14:45:41 22:38:47 Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that. 14:45:42 22:38:54 Awesome. 14:45:42 which one? 14:45:46 was it TAEB or one he custom-made? 14:45:51 ais didn't do TAEB, just TAEB::Planar 14:45:59 or TAEB::AI::Planar, whatever it is 14:48:13 [[earth_is_flat -6 points 2 hours ago[-] 14:48:13 but science is so perfect, so pure, with its theory of evolution that doesn't apply to people, its theories on humors that morphed into germ theory that became stem cell theory and gene theory, and its communist beliefs in public health....lol]] 14:59:33 hrrm, what are the chances of the ipsec daemon, the ipv6 router daemon and an ipv6 multicast daemon not interfering with each other? I should be able to get ipv6 multicast it seems. 14:59:49 seems the sixxs POP I'm connected to recently added support for that 15:00:40 elliott: i totally wrote my own. last night. running it now. yep. 15:01:08 catseye: is the windows partition really important? i'd have just upgraded the ubuntu install 15:03:36 Gregor: Does not-quite-debtakeover work? 15:04:21 elliott: It did at some point. I haven't tested it in a long while. 15:04:44 elliott: i guess the windows partition is a "nice to have" and it sounded more of a known quantity than upgrading ubuntu, given that they both require that i back up my files somehow. 15:05:42 Gregor: Would it work to convert a bastardised half-Debian with a custom bootloader and an insane linuxrc on an ARM platform that uses Xfbdev? 15:05:47 To actual Debian? 15:06:00 catseye: just move the ubuntu files to the windows partition 15:06:02 catseye: if there's space 15:06:03 unless 15:06:04 wait 15:06:05 never mind 15:06:12 that wouldn't work 15:06:30 elliott: I've only tried it on borderline-sensible systems, and haven't tried it on ARM, so all I can say is "dorp." 15:07:08 Gregor: Well, I got a debootstrap chroot working, and even got the init script to load into it. 15:07:13 (I fucked it up for irrelevant reasons but that's not important.) 15:07:22 Gregor: It's just, y'know, I sorta don't want the Evil System above it. 15:08:25 elliott: once i am conscious today i plan to go out and buy something. external hdd that works, external dvd writer, or a Mac or something. 15:08:30 no, not a mac. 15:08:52 elliott: It's worth a try but I guarantee nothing :P 15:08:56 catseye: You'd probably love a Mac for a week because suddenly you've forgotten what Windows and Linux are and "hey, it's BSD" and then suddenly you want to murder someone. 15:09:17 And you do it, because Macs make people GOAL-ORIENTED. 15:09:20 *CRAZY. 15:09:21 -!- elliott has left (?). 15:09:24 -!- elliott has joined. 15:09:25 WHOOPS 15:09:57 elliott: it's weird, but many of the developers where I work use Macs. So I've actually had to deal with porting-to-Mac issues at work. 15:10:04 "it's BSD". Suuuuure. 15:10:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:10:21 I can't even get processes to change their process group! 15:10:56 That userland veneer isn't fooling me! 15:11:06 catseye: It's actually BSD running on Mach. X_X 15:11:39 Which is totally the intended use of Mach. Take this microkernel infrastructure, then slap a monolithic kernel on it. PROBLEM SOLVED. 15:13:55 So wish I had a working burner. But I'm not trusting an external burner to be usable by this computer, now. An external HDD, at least that's a fairly generic USB storage device that any OS ought to understand. 15:21:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:22:51 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:24:58 Gregor: Hooray, BSD-Mach! MkLinux! Retardedness! 15:25:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:26:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:29:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:31:14 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:34:52 Gregor: Would it work to convert a bastardised half-Debian with a custom bootloader and an insane linuxrc on an ARM platform that uses Xfbdev? <-- is this about that weird thingy again? 15:35:11 you know, the one you fucked up twice 15:40:59 Vorpal: yes. 15:41:10 Vorpal: but hey, before i fucked it up the second time, it booted into debian 15:41:11 elliott, ah, have fun 15:41:12 with getty! 15:41:17 *gettys, even, plural! 15:41:23 Vorpal: well it's still bricked... 15:41:24 elliott, oh right, how did you fuck it up then? 15:41:38 (I forgot) 15:42:01 Vorpal: i tried to make getty use something other than /bin/login that cleared the screen first to clear up some visual artefacts from the bootloader 15:42:10 but since it was such a freaking simple change, i didn't bother to have a /bin/login one around 15:42:15 turns out linux makes no sense at all 15:43:45 elliott, hm. 15:44:00 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:44:07 hmm too many spaces for a title bar 15:44:11 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:44:14 elliott, not at all 15:44:17 fits perfectly here 15:44:20 some people have smaller windows :P 15:44:28 not that it goes into my actual title bar though 15:44:31 ok you're right 15:44:33 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:44:33 that still says just emacs :P 15:44:36 Vorpal: i meant topic bar 15:44:40 well okay 15:44:41 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:44:46 elliott, it is halway through my topic bar atm 15:44:50 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:44:56 Vorpal: i'm aligning it perfectly to mine and fuck everyone else :D 15:44:56 a bit more than halfway 15:45:01 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:45:04 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:45:07 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:45:10 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:45:11 argh 15:45:12 spam 15:45:12 yay 15:45:14 there we go 15:45:20 -!- Vorpal has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:45:22 there we go 15:45:23 perfect 15:45:24 ;P 15:45:25 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID. 15:45:28 FIGHT 15:45:33 Vorpal: no this is disrespectful. 15:45:34 the man died! 15:45:38 elliott, nah, not worth doing a fight 15:45:42 MWAHAHA IW IN 15:45:45 *I WIN 15:45:46 *ahem* 15:45:50 err 15:47:45 Vorpal: i only put spaces there because i thought it's a bit lame to have a eulogy for someone so awesome right next to a long log link drowning it out 15:47:47 (also why i shortened it) 15:47:54 this logic is admittedly leaky 15:48:14 hm 15:51:10 elliott: Benoît Mandelbrot died? Citation? 15:51:36 http://kottke.org/10/10/benoit-mandelbrot-rip cites a lot of twats on Twitter (unreliable, but...) 15:51:37 and http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/ 15:51:42 Nassim Nicholas Taleb's website 15:51:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb 15:52:04 "Taleb is collaborating with Benoit Mandelbrot on a general theory of risk management.[59]" 15:52:08 so if he says Mandelbrot's dead... 15:52:26 He's either correct or the worst kind of troll. 15:52:36 pikhq: I don't think he's evil :P 15:57:05 "Thank you very much. Excuse me for sitting I am very old." -- Mandelbrot, TED talk, February 2010 15:57:36 *Please excuse 16:17:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:21:37 Maan. The reason behind so many poor design decisions in Javascript. 16:21:48 "Give me a break; we had 10 days and it had to look like Java." 16:22:43 Most perverse is its complete lack of integers. 16:23:26 pikhq: JavaScript was the result of Brendan Eich being told to write something like Java and deciding to make it as much like Scheme as he could. 16:23:37 Think what it would have been like if he'd just made something like Java. The man's a hero! 16:23:55 Quite true. 16:24:17 You've got to give him credit for churning out something not completely revolting in 10 days. :) 16:26:42 “Ten days without much sleep to build JS from scratch, "make it look like Java" (I made it look like C), and smuggle in its saving graces: first class functions (closures came later but were part of the plan), Self-ish prototypes (one per instance, not many as in Self).” 16:26:46 :D 16:27:35 :D 16:33:54 o.O' 16:34:15 Apparently, Windows has *two* different notions of the default character set. 16:34:22 The "OEM" and the "ANSI" code pages. 16:34:49 The "OEM" code pages are chosen from the DOS set, and are used for DOS programs. 16:35:07 The "ANSI" code pages are the full set of Windows-supported character sets, and are used for everything else. 16:38:54 pikhq: Indeed. 16:41:24 So many crazy hacks. 16:41:47 Though I guess it's at least justified since they still have the *notion* of running this freakish, 30 year old programs. 16:41:55 Erm, these. 16:43:02 pikhq, yeah on sane systems you use something like dosbox to run them :P 16:43:34 Vorpal: DOSemu if you're sufficiently lucky. :) 16:43:58 Though, it doesn't take *much* luck to be running x86. 16:44:09 Or x86_64. 16:44:50 pikhq, I thought it needed vm86() which wouldn't work on x86-64 16:45:13 Vorpal: On x86-64, it emulates an 8086. 16:45:20 But directly executes 32-bit code. 16:45:39 huh 16:46:05 It's not hard to just emulate an 8086, after all. :) 16:46:56 pikhq: i am now going to use the FELL TYPES 16:46:59 this fact must always be announced 16:47:16 You would. 16:47:23 pikhq: You...what? 16:48:10 Snarky, somewhat rude, yet utterly meaningless comment in American vernacular. 16:48:27 pikhq: I get that, I just didn't see the relevance at all :) 16:48:39 I wonder if \documentclass{memoir} would work for a newspaper/magazine type dealie... 16:48:52 elliott: It made sense when I hit enter. 16:49:40 Hmm. On other architectures, you *could* use qemu to run dosemu. XD 16:51:10 argh, where the fuck is the details of the ipsec netlink kernel interface documented. Not in any man page I can find, nor in the Documentation directory of the kernel it seems! 16:52:28 Haha (rough translation): "Sugar is harmful but only if it fattens, hard fat is harmful even if it doesn't fatten" -- Cholesterol researcher Petri Kovanen. M-M-M-MONSTER FAIL! 16:54:35 Apparently he got sugar and hard fat the wrong way around... 16:55:06 Huh. Adobe has documentation on how to use a 32-bit Flash on 64-bit systems. They actually point you towards nspluginwrapper. 16:55:10 new vocabulary entry: M-M-M-MONSTER FAIL! 16:55:51 Ilari: I. Uh. Um? 16:56:35 pikhq: "I. Uh. Um?"? 16:57:19 elliott, that is yet another new entry! 16:57:56 elliott: .|.. 16:57:57 I din't invent that... :-/ 16:58:07 Ilari: Never heard it though. 16:58:13 pikhq: You sure are angry today. 16:58:27 AAANGER 16:58:54 pikhq: At what/whom? 16:59:14 Nothing at all. 17:02:00 Well, if the "hard fat" is techno fat (as opposed to animal fat or one of few kinds hard plant fats), then its harmful even if it doesn't fatten... 17:09:36 pikhq: \setmainfont[Mapping=tex-text]{IM FELL Great Primer PRO} 17:09:38 a w e s o m e 17:10:19 pikhq: [[I'd suggest you try LuaLaTeX with fontspec from github[1], it should 17:10:19 work with microtype package while being able to use OpenType fonts. But 17:10:19 note that this is a development version of fontspec and not very well 17:10:19 tested.]] 17:10:31 pikhq: LuaTeX can do OpenType and microtype. Discuss. 17:11:55 Isn't LuaTeX the replacement for pdfTeX? 17:14:43 pikhq: Yes. 17:15:03 pikhq: And if you have TeX, you probably have LuaTeX too. 17:15:06 Try it. 17:16:00 Mrf 17:16:15 http://github.com/wspr/fontspec 17:16:18 "This is the initial generation of the fontspec package with support for LuaLaTeX. (Previously, fontspec was XeLaTeX-only.)" 17:16:37 It's on CTAN. 17:16:57 Dunno if that's the LuaTeX-supporting version, though. 17:17:04 pikhq: Regardless: MICROTYPE WITH OPENTYPE FONTS OMG OMG OMG 17:19:18 \o/ 17:22:25 pikhq: Feck; you need TeX Live 2010. 17:22:28 Ubuntu has 2009. 17:22:33 pikhq: Are you still on Gentoo? 17:25:26 fungot: bork 17:25:26 elliott: look and say, hey, look, i just want ( 3 2) ( 2 5)" means end the current box with a web server etc, and it 17:27:35 elliott: Yes. 17:27:42 pikhq: bah! 17:28:02 I have concluded that everybody sucks at everything, and keeping Gentoo is less work. 17:30:10 fungot: aptik 17:30:10 elliott: it's what i'm doing. plz let me try your benchmark... 17:30:11 pikhq: KITTEN 17:31:56 elliott: KI'TENN 17:33:57 pikhq: Things that are ridiculous: the st ligature 17:38:16 Things that are ridiculous: how poor text display is on computers. 17:39:14 pikhq: no it's awesome 17:39:15 and so is linux 17:40:04 Awesomely bad, perhaps. 17:40:31 pikhq: you know what else is awesome? 17:40:33 software 17:43:53 argh, nmap can't do UDP scan over ipv6 17:43:59 how the fuck am I supposed to debug this then 17:47:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:49:34 hmm, does the link in the topics go to the logs? 17:53:22 ais523: yse 17:53:23 *yes 17:53:34 hard to tell with a shortener involved 17:53:39 ais523: I shortened it out of some sort of warped respect for Mandelbrot that I shouldn't make anything overshadow the RIP 17:53:48 ah, I see 17:53:51 I would have removed the log link but that violates Freenode's policy. 17:53:56 it looks like the link is going to an obituary or something 17:54:05 ais523: I might add some sort of divider. 17:54:09 I didn't even realise that Mandelbrot had been still alive... 17:54:09 Hmm, I've spelled his name incorrectly. 17:54:53 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID). 17:55:06 that's better 17:55:11 even though my client filters out the multiple spaces 17:56:45 your client is odd 17:58:10 nah, it's just doing things Befunge-98-style rather than Befunge-93-style 17:58:14 see, nice and modern! 18:03:19 pikhq: I will now download a torrent from torrentz using only the infohash and the tracker list. 18:03:32 Because I'm kerr-aazy 18:05:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:05:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:06:27 pikhq: Do per-file priorities actually work well? 18:08:50 Answer: Hell yeah they do. 18:09:36 this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in any respect 18:10:30 oshit mandelbrot died? :((( 18:10:50 same version of strongswan on two different computers, both claim to be sending the packets to set up ipsec. Only one side actually sends such packages according to wireshark, Turning off all firewalls doesn't help. 18:15:13 quintopia: no, we're just saying RIP Mandelbrot because he's gone to sleep 18:15:15 and we want him to rest peacefully 18:15:17 yes he's dead. 18:15:36 elliott: you're an asshole kthx 18:15:53 quintopia: well i could have just /not/ put the obituary in the topic. 18:16:10 elliott: Mmm, screw torrent files. 18:16:22 ....that's not an obit 18:16:23 pikhq: it worked fine 18:16:27 bit of time to connect though 18:16:31 quintopia: well he's dead and there's spaces. 18:16:34 the spaces are the obit 18:16:40 but seriously, here i am expressing my distress at his death, and you're like "o yah, you're an idiot" 18:16:43 they're, like, fractal space 18:16:46 s 18:17:26 wait, what, now it works and then ipv4 stops working? 18:26:38 * pikhq wonders why Java bootstraps 18:29:53 -!- quintopia has set topic: RIP Benot Mandelbrot http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/us/17mandelbrot.html?_r=1 (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID). 18:29:58 that's an obit 18:30:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:30:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:35:05 back 18:35:32 wb 18:36:57 Mandelbrot dead!? D: 18:37:15 Yes. 18:37:26 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID). 18:37:33 the topic is deliberately sparse. 18:37:35 -!- asie[afk] has changed nick to asie[sad]. 18:37:53 the worse thing is 18:37:58 this is the first time i've heard about him 18:38:23 ...seriously? 18:38:37 asie[sad]: Have you never seen the Mandelbrot set? 18:40:29 elliott: i have 18:40:38 but i didn't know who made it, other than it was someone named Mandelbrot 18:40:47 i didn't know his name was Benoît 18:41:14 Someone's not a Joco fan. 18:42:14 it is sad that 18:42:39 pikhq: i listened to that song just minutes ago, heh 18:42:54 "Mandelbrot's in heaven, at least he will be when he's dead / Right now he's still alive and teaching math at Yale" needs... updating 18:43:03 although the song also describes how to construct a julia set 18:43:28 Yes, because the lyrics for a Mandelbrot set didn't fit as well. :P 18:43:40 pikhq: iirc it was an actual mistake at first 18:43:43 but then he decided it fit better 18:43:47 Eh. 18:43:52 pikhq: on the *other* hand: 18:44:19 ehh too long to paste 18:45:34 anyway 18:45:38 who wants to know hell itself? 18:45:52 Unlambda? no thanks 18:46:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:46:45 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 18:47:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:48:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:48:09 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:48:23 ... Huh. Wal-Mart is attempting to become more environmentally friendly in its supply chain because it's concluded that raping the environment hurts their bottom line. 18:49:43 pikhq: FREE MEERKAT IN ACTION 18:49:56 *MARQUIS 18:49:57 the best way to a corporations heart is through its bottom line 18:49:58 *MARKET 18:50:24 elliott: Actually, a large part of this is courtesy of subsidies in pretty much every developed nation but the US. :P 18:50:38 FREEEEE MARQUIIIIIIIS 18:56:49 FightClub is gone! C_SPLAT is gone! 19:02:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:04:59 hmm, something wrong with the Crawl bots? 19:05:17 Henzell and co are still on IRC 19:05:41 so presumably, just the Crawl termcast bots 19:06:04 hmm, they're back, as of about 5 minutes ago 19:10:06 ais523: but why would you want to? 19:10:23 elliott: context? 19:10:43 even after checking scrollback, I don't understand the question 19:11:04 ais523: watch Crawl, that is :) 19:11:11 oh 19:11:25 elliott: to gather evidence for a proof that Crawl is fundamentally boring 19:11:45 ais523: the opposite of Vagrant 19:13:42 Wow. Newsweek was bought for $1. 19:13:43 hello 19:13:50 Not an *issue* of Newsweek. The entire operation. 19:13:55 pikhq: yeah, i know 19:14:01 links or it didnt happen 19:14:02 asie[sad]: I didn't! 19:14:11 pikhq: presumably they bought the debt at the same time 19:14:13 asie[sad]: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/06/AR2010100606096_pf.html 19:14:14 to reduce the price 19:14:16 ais523: Yes. 19:14:19 that's the usual explanation 19:14:24 ais523: All $10 million of it. 19:14:40 (at least it makes more sense than buying a company with its own money, like happened to Manchester United; I'm surprised that's even possible) 19:14:43 it's actually $10.000.001 19:14:50 because of the bills 19:15:16 ais523: Well, y'know, it's kinda like how you can pay off a credit card using another credit card. 19:15:22 (PEOPLE FUCKING DO THIS.) 19:15:49 hi i've printed chits for my fantasy, wanna join? 19:15:56 pikhq: well, it's not actually completely implausible 19:16:13 in theory, given enough credit card companies and enough crazy introductory offers, you can actually make money like that 19:16:33 what is insane, is paying off a credit card using another credit card, then continuing to use the first one, which is what often actually happens 19:17:36 Lap kitty! 19:18:46 WTF 19:18:55 That wasn't some weird typo like I was expecting 19:19:08 Sgeo: It's not insane because of the debts. 19:19:33 In that case, who'd want to buy it, even for $1? 19:19:45 Sgeo: MOGULS 19:20:15 pikhq: That site indicates that $10 million of the (undisclosed) total dept is being paid by the ORIGINAL owner. 19:20:44 Err, debt :P 19:20:53 hmm, so they bought all but $10 million of the debt 19:21:04 Yes. 19:21:15 Which is probably more on the order of 9 digits of debt than 8 :P 19:22:45 In that case, who'd want to buy it, even for $1? 19:22:50 well because it's like buying it for $1 + debt 19:22:57 so if you think you can make it profitable... 19:34:44 ais523: Yes, because of the sheer insanity of credit cards, people were able to keep that going for *ages*. 19:35:19 it sounds like a way to game a naïve credit rating algorithm 19:35:33 Well, it does fuck with your credit score a lot. 19:35:44 Each new credit card application reduces your credit score. 19:35:48 oh, phew 19:35:54 I'm glad that safeguard exists 19:35:57 The thing is, credit card companies were handing out cards to just about anyone. 19:36:12 I just had a horrifying realisation "hey, you're technically paying all the cards back all the time, wouldn't that lead to a perfect score?" 19:36:17 With the credit rating just determining your interest rate. 19:36:41 I don't really understand credit cards at all 19:36:50 they seem to be built on the assumption that people will forget to pay 19:36:51 Moral of the story: the US financial system is basically a gigantic casino. 19:36:54 ais523: they are 19:37:04 or, more precisely, the assumption that people will overspend 19:37:11 and be unable to pay 19:37:16 and yet, if people overspend, they go bankrupt and can't pay you back 19:37:37 You can only go bankrupt once every 8 years, IIRC. 19:37:55 pikhq: oh, I'm not talking about technically bankrupt, but actually 19:38:07 whether someone can legally go bankrupt or not doesn't influence whether they actually own any money 19:38:19 Also, they make quite a bit of money just off of people who merely pay the minimum fees. 19:38:39 well, "just pay the minimum" is how you use a credit card as a loan 19:38:41 And, even more importantly for how they actually make money: they charge merchants per transaction. 19:38:47 yep, I figured that 19:38:55 also, they insist that credit card and cash prices are the same 19:39:16 thus, every time you use a credit card, the person you're buying from loses money, compared to if you'd paid cash 19:39:45 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb385791.aspx 19:39:49 Does 7 use the same exact model? 19:40:01 Which means that they make at least a *small* amount of money just so long as they end up getting back at least 100% of what's paid for using credit cards. 19:40:07 "This model, also used in Windows 7" 19:40:13 Reading comprehension: It's where you READ something and you then COMPREHEND it. 19:40:19 (for instance, using them as a 1-month, 0 interest loan) 19:41:05 * Sgeo doesn't know how to stop skimming 19:41:15 Sgeo: It's actually a reasonable security model, surprisingly. 19:41:30 Basically making "administrator" a matter of being on the sudoers list. 19:41:42 much of Windows' changes since Vista, apart from the DRM stuff, have been reasonable, but too little too late 19:41:48 well, since and including Vista 19:42:02 Probably the only problem with it is that previously, Windows programs assumed that they were administrator. 19:42:27 Yeah, older programs keep causing Windows to ask me to allow changes to the HD 19:42:30 But, well, can't really fault Microsoft for the result of that being annoyance when they move toward sanity. 19:43:00 Especially as that old model *makes some amount of sense* for single-user, non-networked computers. 19:43:27 catseye: invent a language 19:43:28 No excuse keeping it past, oh, Windows 95, though. 19:43:31 yep, it's the Internet that caught Microsoft out 19:43:32 Or in a world without bugs, kind of 19:43:40 . 19:43:40 Well, hmm 19:43:51 Not really, for less than trustworthy programs 19:44:09 But then again, even in the newer model, someone could trust a less-than-trustworthy program 19:44:50 Sgeo: If the user is intentionally executing a malicious program, all security models pretty much go out the window. 19:45:03 It's only a question of how much damage can be done at that point. 19:45:37 Well, if the model basically keeps programs sandboxed, and the user doesn't trust it enough to let it out of its sandbox.. 19:45:53 Then again, I suppose the question implies full trust 19:46:06 Yes, but the point is that the user can just be told that "This needs to be out of its sandbox" and a moron might follow through on that. 19:47:27 A while ago, I imagined an OS where the user would be quizzed before being allowed to let stuff out of their sandboxes 19:48:57 pikhq: AKA Java 19:49:17 Got a pop-up recently that tried to do some Java thing 19:49:31 I didn't know what it was, so kept clicking Cancel to the authorize thingy 19:49:36 Someone not computer savvy.... 19:49:51 Gregor: Aye. 19:50:13 Sgeo: Is trained to click "Okay" to everything. 19:50:47 * Sgeo decides that the Ninite install of VLC sucks 19:51:06 It apparently doesn't install the VLC web plugin thingy 19:51:11 >>> True = False 19:51:12 >>> True 19:51:12 False 19:51:12 >>> True is False 19:51:12 True 19:51:13 --Python 19:51:49 Isn't that an older version? 19:51:55 No? 19:52:03 Hmm 19:52:11 elliott@dinky:~$ python 19:52:11 Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Sep 15 2010, 16:22:56) 19:52:11 [GCC 4.4.5] on linux2 19:52:11 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. 19:52:11 >>> True = False 19:52:12 >>> True 19:52:13 What did they make unchangable recently? 19:52:14 False 19:52:16 >>> True is False 19:52:17 let True == False = True in True == False 19:52:18 True 19:53:16 * Sgeo wants XP Mode 19:53:49 Sgeo: Windows 7 ships with one. 19:53:54 pikhq: only Ultimate. 19:53:57 "I liken starting one’s computing career with Unix, say as an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the natural condition and they live within it. By the time they find out differently, it is too late. They already think that the writing of shell scripts 19:53:57 is a natural act." -- Ken Pier, Xerox PARC 19:53:58 It's called "XP". 19:54:09 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:54:13 elliott: Ah, right. *That's* why my grandmother bought Ultimate... 19:54:18 pikhq: x_x 19:54:22 But XP Mode is almost useless. 19:54:59 I'd imagine it would be just like the fun I had with WinXP in VMware some years ago 19:55:00 elliott: Hey, she didn't *consult* with me before going out to buy it. 19:55:02 !haskell let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1 19:55:04 3 19:55:25 pikhq: "The best version of Windows 7 is called 'Ubuntu'." 19:55:42 Gregor: Therefore Haskell sucks, right? 19:55:46 -!- Harpyon has joined. 19:55:46 elliott: No. 19:55:51 elliott: Therefore the Python comment is silly. 19:55:58 Gregor: I was joking with my Haskell thing. 19:56:00 But still. 19:56:00 !haskell let 2 + 2 = Gregor in 2 + 2 19:56:05 !haskell let 2 + 2 = Gregor in 2 + 2 19:56:06 True and False should be *constants* ffs. 19:56:09 And not overridable. At all. 19:56:09 D: 19:56:21 At least if you're making a language like Python. 19:56:31 asie[sad]: Gregor is undefined. 19:57:53 ... 19:58:25 You need Ultimate to be able to have multiple locales installed on Windows at the same time‽ 19:58:53 When the book is shipped to me, then I can reimplement TeX. 19:58:55 That's astoundingly shitty. 19:59:17 -!- wareya_ has joined. 19:59:37 And use this reimplementation as the one I put in Linux distribution. It should pass the TRIP test and also the TRIP'' test. 19:59:59 Without Ultimate, you have a system-wide locale instead of a per-user locale. 20:00:02 That's... Retarded. 20:00:21 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:01:45 pikhq: Is there some way that can tell it to change locale at login so that you can make fake per-user locale? 20:01:56 zzo38: No. 20:02:22 Also, you need to reboot to change the system locale. 20:03:06 I suppose you don't usually need a per-user locale, which might be why they didn't do it except Ultimate. 20:03:20 If you don't like that, use Linux or perhaps. 20:03:33 Where you can have per-app locales. 20:05:26 There is "applocale" program available for Windows, but I don't know if there is some versions it does not work with. 20:08:40 I don't use credit-card. And I don't want to use credit-card. I prefer to pay everything by cash. And if I run a business, I should put a service charge on any payment that is not cash. 20:09:57 Which means you wouldn't be able to run credit cards. 20:10:08 Would you do the same for debit cards or checks, though?\ 20:10:20 (no charges for those) 20:10:49 pikhq: I hate naming schemes for serials. 20:10:55 (TV series, web series, etc.) 20:10:57 Filenaming schemes. 20:10:57 That is. 20:11:17 If I run it entirely by myself, of course I will not accept any payment other than cash, but I don't run a business all by myself, so the other people can help. However I would add service charges for everything that isn't cash. But more service charge for credit cards than for debit cards and checks. 20:11:38 pikhq, as a curious related remark: in Sweden businesses are no longer allowed to add a charge to the price for debit and credit cards. Banks are however still allowed to charge businesses. 20:11:41 "[season].[episode] Title", without leading 0s, works, but then what about extras for a series? What about extras that are chronologically related in some way? 20:12:03 Perhaps "[season].S Title" for specials and "[season].[episode]S Title" for chronological specials. 20:12:22 Vorpal: Is it permitted to make a discount for cash payments, then? Or not? 20:12:22 zzo38, wouldn't be legal to add such charges in Sweden any more. 20:12:27 zzo38, I don't know 20:12:38 elliott: I use [season]/[episode] - Title 20:12:48 When the book is shipped to me, then I can reimplement TeX. 20:12:50 oh jesus christ. 20:13:00 zzo38, I would assume that it isn't, otherwise every business would be doing that by now. 20:13:12 zzo38, to make up for the banks still charging them 20:13:17 elliott: With leading 0s, but only because everything insists on UTF-8betical sort. 20:13:39 pikhq: Why season directories? 20:13:58 pikhq: Anyway, what about extra material? Just in the season directory? 20:14:02 What about chronological extra material? 20:14:04 elliott: Yeah. 20:14:16 What about chronological extra material? 20:14:41 elliott, why are you trying to put this in an hierarchical tree! You need to free yourself from the flawed file system abstraction here. 20:14:42 If it's chronologically related to a specific episode, I'll probably do something like [episode].extra - Title 20:14:59 (not ironic, well, mostly not) 20:15:05 It's all just a hack to get around pitiful, pitiful lacking of metadata, of course. 20:15:17 Vorpal: yeah maybe i'll just put it all in one big file and seek around it. 20:15:44 * Sgeo removes Adobe Reader 9.3 with prejudice 20:16:29 elliott, the best way would be to have some sort of linked list to indicate chronological order, and some ordered set of seasons, each containing an ordered set of episodes. 20:16:39 elliott, that should handle extra material 20:16:50 Vorpal: A linked list? Seriously? 20:16:57 elliott, well, depends on how many 20:17:06 Vorpal: That fails horribly with complex chronological ordering. 20:17:11 elliott, an ordered set would be better for large amounts of data 20:17:19 pikhq, um, complex in what way? 20:17:19 Time travel. 20:17:20 pikhq: I HAVE A SOLUTION *deletes extra material* 20:17:22 pikhq, oh 20:17:32 pikhq: he meant release chronological :P 20:17:33 pikhq, but there can be time travel within an episode 20:17:42 elliott, yes I thought that is what you meant 20:17:44 Where chronological order is an ordered graph. :) 20:17:52 elliott: :P 20:18:03 Erm. 20:18:16 A *directed* graph. 20:18:22 pikhq: Written any code lately? DHT IT 20:18:23 I should reimplement TeX because I don't like the way the current TeX distributions work; they work by requiring the TeX program in Pascal WEB, and then it also needs a lot of change files, and conversion programs and a lot of other things. So now it can be rewritten using Enhanced CWEB and omitting a lot of unnecessary things. 20:18:59 pikhq, if there is time travel within an episode. Then one episode could show up at multiple places in the timeline. and that is kind of tricky to represent. Especially if you need to deal with "original timeline" vs. "changed timeline due to timetravel" 20:19:08 zzo38: I am banging my head against the wall. 20:19:10 Also crying. 20:19:17 * pikhq laughs again at Microsoft... 20:19:22 Starter Edition of Windows. 20:19:22 pikhq, I mean: time travel could be used to retcon an entire previous episode! 20:19:24 Teehee. 20:19:48 "Make it worse than the real thing in regions where piracy of the real thing is the norm!" 20:21:13 I am sad. 20:21:17 WHY MUST LANGUAGES SUCK 20:21:31 elliott: Why did you bang your head and crying? 20:21:39 Are you going to break your head now? 20:21:52 * pikhq should obtain lunch 20:21:53 zzo38: Because you're reimplementing TeX. And yes. 20:21:55 It is breaking. 20:23:07 Do you not like reimplementing TeX? But surely the current way is really messy, isn't it? 20:24:02 zzo38: Well yes. But still. Is there anything you won't reimplement in your distro? 20:24:55 Probably I don't reimplement everything, but I might modify many things. 20:37:09 WHOA 20:37:13 xrandr -o inverted 20:37:15 that's sure something 20:37:16 help 20:40:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:46:44 elliott: xrandr -o normal 20:46:48 pikhq: yeah :P 20:54:16 * pikhq wonders if there's a way to convince an ATI card to do pillarboxed or letterboxed output for resolutions not at a 16:10 aspect ratio 20:54:45 (my monitor, for no apparent reason, just scales it all to 16x10) 20:55:22 Yeah, that sucks. 21:01:24 ais523: what does 0 on the end of a debian library package mean? 21:01:28 e.g. libfoo0, libfoo0-dev 21:01:44 elliott: so version. 21:01:52 ah. 21:02:05 how come the libfoo-dev packages sometimes have the number after foo and sometimes don't? 21:05:18 They have the number when currently or at some point in the past it has been possible to have both versions installed and usable concurrently. 21:05:34 s/both/two or more/ 21:05:46 It's ... kinda silly. 21:07:23 You know 21:07:27 The weirdest thing is 21:07:35 I didn't even know Mandlebrot was still alive 21:10:30 me neither 21:10:42 what is weird about that? there are obviously many people that were famous but haven't done anything particularly newsworthy in the last decade or so 21:10:56 oerjan: because mandelbrot seems like one of those guys who's dead 21:11:14 ...but his famous book was only in the 80s 21:11:16 afair 21:11:22 oerjan: and IRC is full of young brats. 21:11:47 heh 21:12:12 his discoveries are all surprisingly recent too, I always thought the mandelbrot set and all that stuff was discovered in the 30s or something by a mandelbrot at least 50 years older than he actually was 21:13:20 I was vaguely under that impression too. 21:14:09 ...you do realise you need a graphical computer to do popular science with fractals? 21:14:15 But French mathematicians always sound older than they are. Is Bezier still alive? 21:14:27 catseye: He died on Thursday. 21:14:31 Erm 21:14:36 I thought you wrote "Benoit" for some reason. 21:14:38 IGNORE ME. 21:14:47 Gregor: Yeah hi Gregor, thank you. 21:15:22 !haskell let catseye = 0 in catseye 21:15:35 Pierre Étienne Bézier (September 1, 1910 . November 25, 1999) 21:15:56 0 21:15:56 (my unicode is currently even brokener than usual, some server misconfiguration) 21:16:10 haha, it's true, french mathematicians always sound older than they are :) 21:16:55 for example, is Nicolas Bourbaki still alive or not... 21:16:57 his discoveries are all surprisingly recent too, I always thought the mandelbrot set and all that stuff was discovered in the 30s or something by a mandelbrot at least 50 years older than he actually was 21:16:58 * oerjan runs away 21:16:58 that's what i felt, yeah 21:17:10 i didn't realise fractals were so new and controversial at the time 21:17:16 because they're so... obviously awesome 21:17:28 oerjan: never alive due to not being an actual person :P 21:17:32 I think (at least) I am confusing his work to a degree with Julia's. 21:17:37 olsner: THAT'S THE JOKE 21:17:43 olsner: DON'T SPOIL THE JOKE 21:17:58 http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090819180841/uncyclopedia/images/1/13/Thats_the_joke.jpg 21:18:06 ...you do realise you need a graphical computer to do popular science with fractals? 21:18:10 no reason you couldn't have traced an outline :D 21:18:28 Gaaah. Only two of the modes on my X11 configuration are at the native aspect ratio 21:18:31 note that super-quick judgements like these tend not to be thought about... 21:18:40 Julia published his first work on the Julia set in 1918, it looks like. So, yeah. 21:18:42 pikhq: BTW, you know how you advocated 16:9 screens? 21:18:49 pikhq: Fucking sucks at 13". 21:18:58 I would like more height please. 21:19:07 elliott: I've not really advocated 16:9 screens for much more than video. 21:19:24 elliott: Ideally, I'd have like a 9:16 screen for most purposes that could be rotated to 16:9 for video. 21:19:37 pikhq: Vertical screens tend to suck. 21:19:43 pikhq: Oh, and vertical 9:16 screens are abhorrent. 21:19:54 Strains your neck to look from top to bottom, and it's so thin you feel like your screen's anorexic. 21:20:27 I have dual 16:10, horizontal. 21:20:33 'cuz I'm awesome like that. 21:20:35 I have your mom, horizontal. 21:20:36 Actually. Y'know what? 4:3 is a nice aspect ratio for computer monitors. 21:20:47 'cuz I'm awesome like that. 21:21:03 elliott: Whatever floats yer boat, man. *gak* 21:21:11 Gregor just died. 21:21:15 *gak* 21:21:17 I just died! 21:21:20 *kag* 21:21:24 I just gakked. 21:21:37 My god. For his entire professional career, Julia had no nose. It was blown off in the war. 21:21:54 also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini is clearly relevant to this discussion. 21:22:17 catseye: He originally designed the Julia set to be experienced olfactorily. 21:22:27 catseye: Took him a while to realise that wouldn't work. 21:23:04 it resembles those internal nose pictures, doesn't it 21:23:46 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Gustav_Herglotz,_Gaston_Julia.jpeg 21:23:46 "Gaston Julia (right), with Gustav Herglotz, comparing dogs" 21:23:49 as we can see, he also didn't have eyes 21:24:11 "Mandelbrot set, discovered by Pierre Fatou and Julia" 21:24:16 what's that law again? 21:24:25 that things are named after the second people to do them 21:24:28 and never the first 21:24:55 those are cute dogs 21:25:10 i saw that the other day 21:25:23 catseye: That's what a FURRY would say. 21:25:48 catseye: One day, a budding young Amiga programmer, ERIC SCHWARTZ, had that thought. 21:25:51 NOW WHAT CATSEYE? 21:25:52 NOW WHAT 21:26:10 elliott: yeah so anyway 21:26:31 [catseye hangs himself quietly] 21:26:35 I have a working external HDD now, and I am happily copying everything to it. 21:26:47 catseye: Do not lose that HD :P 21:26:55 It's small enough... 21:27:39 I only hope it's more reliable than that SimpleTech poc 21:27:59 catseye: You should totally install NetBSD. 21:28:09 [cogs whirr in catseye's mind and a chain reaction begins...] 21:28:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy 21:28:54 -!- asie[sad] has quit. 21:29:20 why was asie sad, anyhow 21:29:52 oerjan: because mandelbrot died, i think 21:30:01 yeah 21:30:05 catseye: TOTALLY INSTALL NETBSD 21:30:19 Should I TrueCrypt my HD? 21:30:23 elliott: finish Kitten, and I'll install that! 21:30:35 catseye: But install NetBSD first, since that's totally like at least 33% of Kitten. 21:30:48 ah. 21:31:22 elliott: The #1 obstacle is going to be install media, you see -- no CD/DVD-R. 21:31:31 catseye: Got a USB stick? 21:31:42 Actually I might not have tried CD-R, but I know DVD-R just doesn't happening. 21:31:45 catseye: Got a USB stick? 21:32:01 elliott: Yes, I picked up another one when I got my ext hdd. 21:32:13 Can you install *NetBSD* from one of those. 21:32:15 catseye: Yes. 21:32:17 catseye: Yes you can. 21:32:24 Then I might. 21:32:30 catseye: Maybe not without the help of some third-party software, but I Can Help With That. 21:32:45 http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ (available for Windows and Linux) + NetBSD 5.0.2 ISO = tada. 21:33:01 (It has the ability to download NetBSD among others and put it on the USB stick automatically but I don't trust that it gets the right ISO.) 21:33:26 OK, 2 hours for copy session #1 to finish. 21:33:27 catseye: How old is the computer? Hopefully it can boot USB disks. 21:33:50 Err it probably can, it's not THAT old. 21:34:03 Oh, so this is what Vorpal was talking about. 21:34:10 catseye: Was he talking about unetbootin too? 21:34:20 Except more incoherently, I guess. 21:34:30 Yes. I thought it was some kind of PXE thing. I mean, its got "net" in it. 21:34:36 catseye: Yeah it's a stupid name. 21:34:41 It is a very bad name. 21:35:02 So would this work with *any* ISO image? 21:35:07 I mean, of suitable size 21:35:08 catseye: Maybe not Windows. 21:35:09 Has to use isolinux 21:35:12 catseye: It basically just installs SYSLINUX instead of ISOLINUX and I don't know how that works for NetBSD but whatever it has the option to download NetBSD so presumably it works. 21:35:14 Gregor: clearly not 21:35:19 Gregor: http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=167328 21:35:23 "NetBSD" is one of the options there 21:35:25 NetBSD almost assuredly uses isolinux. 21:35:29 as is FreeBSD 21:35:30 Gregor: nope 21:35:32 custom BSD loader 21:35:36 well "custom" 21:35:40 afaik it's just the bsd loader 21:35:43 Even on ISO? That's ... surprising. 21:35:43 i may be wrong 21:35:48 Gregor: Dude, it's BSD. 21:35:59 They don't use anyone else's shit, especially if it has "linux" in the name. 21:36:00 elliott: EVERYTHING uses isolinux. 21:36:05 Gregor: Okay, fine. 21:36:06 Well, whatever. 21:36:08 catseye: It'll work fine. 21:36:14 Gregor: Arch uses GRUB btw (but who gives a shit) 21:36:27 grbtgrbtgrbthmok 21:36:32 catseye: wat 21:37:42 I don't know what isolinux is but I don't see why this would depend on it 21:37:49 catseye: Don't worry about it 21:38:00 catseye: It'll either work or not -- if not, there's like 10 other ways to get it onto a USB stick. 21:38:04 The main consideration seems to be if the media's boot sequence understands that it can be run from a USB drive 21:38:08 catseye: But it supports downloading NetBSD automatically. 21:38:09 So it's fine. 21:38:14 Because that means it supports it. 21:38:19 So you can download the iso and it will work fine. 21:38:26 IT WILL WORK FINE 21:38:31 * catseye zombie-arms 21:40:17 What the fuck are all these distros, anyway? 21:42:02 catseye: Crap, basically. 21:42:06 catseye: Don't use that list. 21:42:09 catseye: Just use the iso part. 21:42:12 There simply isn't enough variation in the space of Linux install permutations to support as many distros as there are. Unless half of them are just "skins". 21:42:25 Half of them are. 21:42:28 Going to be more than 2 hours to copy, it looks like. 21:42:31 Half of them are forks that change approximately nothing. 21:42:33 OK, well. 21:42:49 And the other half... :P 21:42:50 catseye: Why are you trying to recover Windows again? 21:43:37 elliott: No *good* reason. 21:45:01 catseye: NETBSD PURITY 21:45:35 * catseye drinks only rainwater 21:47:13 elliott: I stand corrected, NetBSD is too lame to use ISOLINUX, instead it uses a friggin' boot floppy in El Torito floppy emulation mode! 21:47:23 Gregor: Amazing. 21:47:28 Gregor: But unetbootin supports it. 21:47:30 So presumably it works. 21:47:48 Well, unetbootin' really has LESS work to do with a boot floppy than with ISOLINUX *shrugs* 21:47:56 Indeed :P 21:47:59 Boot floppy. Amazing. 21:48:03 Gregor: Yes. All BSDs do it that way iirc. 21:48:06 * Gregor is apparently incapable of typing "unetbootin" without an apostrphe at the end. 21:48:20 a 2.88M disk image. 21:48:23 Gregor: So is this a CD-sized boot "floppy" or a floppy-sized bootloader that loads the full CD? 21:48:32 elliott: Bootloader. 21:48:36 elliott: It's 2.88M. 21:48:56 LAME 21:49:00 Amusingly, El Torito can also do hard drive emulation. 21:49:03 "And here's my 600 meg floppy..." 21:49:06 El Torito doesn't support arbitrary floppy sizes for emulation. It supports HDD emulation, but that's effectively implemented nowhere. 21:50:20 No emulation is the most reliable one on modern hardware, funnily enough. 21:51:13 Hence why everything uses ISOLINUX *shrugs* 21:51:19 elliott: So I take it Kitten will run the NetBSD kernel but will not go anywhere near the BSD boot model. 21:51:30 catseye: I hadn't even thought about the bootloader. 21:51:37 catseye: Is the hard-drive bootloader saner? 21:51:49 Gregor: You can then have ISOLINUX load a floppy disk emulation module. 21:51:49 :D 21:51:50 elliott: mmmarginally 21:51:57 catseye: i'll probably just do that :P 21:52:00 goddammit, netbsd still use CVS :( 21:52:04 pikhq: Indeed ... 21:52:05 Mmmm, MEMDISK. 21:52:07 catseye: So are you installing NetBSD or not 21:52:14 catseye: If so, you are awesome and... and I might as well 21:52:23 THe one on FreeBSD resides *entirely* in the boot sector, thus is tiny and crude. Nothing lie that LiLo monstrosity 21:52:25 *like 21:52:32 I don't remember about NetBSD's 21:52:40 ... MEMDISK can emulate a floppy, hard drive, *or* CD. 21:52:46 lilo monstrosity :D 21:52:49 elliott: Have not decided 21:52:50 catseye: Nobody's used LILO in like a decade :P 21:52:50 512 bootlaoder, impressive 21:53:02 catseye: It means you can ANSWER COPIOUS QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR KITTEN 21:53:04 Gregor: yes they have 21:53:11 elliott: I'M AN OPTIMIST DAMN IT 21:53:13 You could use ISOLINUX to boot MEMDISK to boot an ISO. 21:53:17 Gregor: lilo is less shit than grub. 21:53:21 From RAM! 21:53:22 the only complaint about lilo is... 21:53:28 "you have to run it after upgrading your kernel!" 21:53:29 OH NO 21:53:34 WE DON'T HAVE PACKAGE MANAGERS THAT CAN DO THAT FOR US 21:53:35 UNTHINKABLE 21:53:44 Gregor: LILO's still the default on Slackware. 21:53:51 Gregor: And an option on Debian-alikes. 21:54:01 ... And Gentoo, for that matter. 21:54:07 Actually, every modern distro still has it. 21:54:09 pikhq: Nobody's used Slackware in MORE than a decade :P 21:54:15 And of course every distro still HAS it. 21:54:20 It's just not the DEFAULT. 21:54:22 Gregor just hates anything outside of the modern Debian canon. 21:54:23 The nice thing about boot0cfg is that you can use it completely independent of the OSes you have installed. I've used it to dual-boot Windows and Linux... 21:54:28 elliott: Pretty much. 21:54:39 The downside is that almost all OSes show up as '????' 21:54:51 ...which is because he's either unimaginative, has terrible taste, or is just a contrarian to contrarians. 21:55:12 Debian can do no wrong. 21:55:17 As I have defined "right" as "Debian" 21:55:38 Debian is for plebians 21:55:41 If "right" is Debian, I want to be a terrorist and a rapist. 21:56:03 And booleans are for hooligans 21:56:06 WORST WAY OF PHRASING THAT EVER 21:56:11 Ahahahah. You could totally make a Win95 live CD. 21:56:13 ... 21:56:17 pikhq: xDDDD 21:56:21 pikhq: DON'T 21:56:23 catseye: "Debian" doesn't rhyme with "plebian" ... 21:56:26 elliott: It's simple. 21:56:38 Gregor: Sure it does. 21:56:47 elliott: You make a HD image, and then make an ISO that boots that via MEMDISK. 21:56:48 Debian is named after one Deb and one Ian. 21:56:51 Indeed. 21:56:58 It is pronounced like the name "Deb" concatenated with the name "Ian" 21:57:04 I define the pronunciation of Debian to be ... 21:57:10 (note: not likely to work on any hardware with enough RAM to actually stick that into RAM) 21:58:26 Gregor: Just channel Ogden Nash, it'll be fine. 22:00:03 pikhq, why not? 22:00:33 I failed to make an AT&T SysV boot CD a while ago :P 22:01:57 Sgeo: It would need to load the entire HD image into RAM. 22:02:10 Sgeo: And Win95 doesn't like more than like 512M of RAM. 22:02:14 Oh 22:02:25 pikhq: you can fix that easily 22:02:31 there's a patch iirc 22:02:47 also 95 installs are less than 512 megs i think... 22:02:50 Note to everyone: Stop making things that dislike more than a certain amount of resources 22:02:55 pikhq: That probably wouldn't work since MEMDISK only exposes the disk through BIOS, not IDE, and Win95 (presumably ... oh god please tell me it does :P) would use the IDE bus directly. 22:03:20 Gregor: It *tries* to use the IDE bus directly. 22:03:27 pikhq: However, it's much simpler than that. Just make a tiny DOS boot partition that loads a CD driver, then have Win95 actually installed on the CD. 22:03:27 Gregor: If it *can't*, then it uses DOS. 22:03:33 ORLY? That's ... silly. 22:03:36 But awesome? Maybe? 22:03:57 for certain values of awesome 22:04:16 Also, if there is any hook into the DOS filesystem routines, then it jumps into DOS to run those hooks. 22:05:14 And it has its own hooks into the DOS filesystem routines so that any DOS program will end up actually calling the Win95 filesystem routines. 22:05:35 Also, *brain explodes* 22:05:47 And *also* so that DOS filesystem hooks will jump back *into* Win95. 22:06:16 Running AT&T SysV off a boot CD would be more entertaining. 22:06:53 In essence, Win95 tried as hard as it could to pretend to be DOS. 22:11:08 elliott: Yes, probably NetBSD. 22:11:13 elliott: Be happy. 22:11:25 Windows first, though. 22:12:14 --> 22:14:37 This thingy for protecting the hard drive. The software just reports and optionally toggles, right? 22:14:41 That makes much more sense 22:19:58 so I can only conclude that ipsec tunneling is very very very screwy 22:20:09 1) it doesn't use a pseudo interface like other tunnel types 22:20:14 Vorpal: ipso facto 22:20:45 2) the routes look weird. Like via . 22:21:04 3) wireshark at the endpoints captures packages twice, first encrypted then decrypted 22:21:10 * Sgeo is looking at notebook cases 22:21:13 Any guidance? 22:21:13 (note, this does not happen for transport mode) 22:21:20 oerjan, what? 22:21:25 http://www.amazon.com/rooCASE-Neoprene-Satellite-T115-S1100-11-6-Inch/dp/B0040OVEIE/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1287263804&sr=1-8 22:21:39 Looks good, but I want a case I feel comfortable putting in my backpack 22:21:50 And my backpack tends to get mushed around a lot 22:22:12 Maybe it's not so bad to carry a case around 22:23:01 * oerjan adjusts Vorpal's punnimeter again. 22:23:35 oerjan, I don't see what you are trying to pun on 22:24:09 oerjan, ipsec → ipso? No, that is too bad, can't be that 22:24:11 * oerjan thinks something is rattling inside 22:24:31 * oerjan sulks in the corner. You're mean! 22:24:47 huh? it was that? 22:24:51 nothing personal then 22:25:46 * oerjan bawls at ear-damaging volume, then remembers sound doesn't transfer on irc 22:28:31 Dear Toshiba website: ACKNOWLEDGE MY LAPTOP'S EXISTENCE 22:33:43 Sgeo: Please enable Toshiba Genuine Advantage, then call this number. 22:36:02 What, exactly, were Vista's problems? 22:37:56 It tasted like burning goats. 22:40:07 Sgeo, huge, slow, annoying? 22:40:12 and more 22:41:59 Hmm 22:42:19 Windows 7's security model seems to force you to trust anything that you want to install 22:42:29 Unless it's just that I keep installing old programs 22:45:03 Sgeo, same for xp or vista really 22:46:55 It still sucks 22:47:17 Sgeo, yeah, go for linux 22:47:21 There should be separate "Install" "Regular access" and "Full access" levels 22:47:44 Instaling on Linux is always "full access" or "user-level" 22:47:58 Sgeo, 90% (a guesstimate) of the software doesn't need more than normal user access really 22:48:32 5% (again guesstimate) of the remaining just needs one or two small things, such as listening to a privileged port. 22:48:34 But surely it's best to place the executables and other such files ouut of reach of normal access 22:48:39 the remaining 5% really needs root 22:49:07 Sgeo, on *nix I normally install non-package-manager stuff into ~/local 22:49:53 Sgeo, the only case I installed something outside of package manager that needed root was with kismet. Since package manager version was outdated, installed into /opt/kismet 22:50:04 and that needs privileged access for some parts to run 22:50:10 oh wait, aircrack-ng too 22:50:16 but that is it 22:50:35 But, suppose there's an exploit in the browser. It can tamper with any software installed to ~/local 22:52:35 Suppose there's an exploit in the kernel. Now anything can tamper with any software installed to /usr. 22:52:45 Suppose there's an exploit in the CPU. Now anything can make your bus explode. 22:53:06 Suppose there's an exploit in the very laws of physics. Suppose that supposing exploits exist here and there isn't all that helpful. 22:53:58 But browser exploits are presumably common. At least on Windows they are, even outside of IE. Why would Linux browsers be different in that respect? 22:55:08 Gregor: http://www.exitmundi.nl/vacuum.htm 22:55:46 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schild%27s_Ladder 22:56:06 Suppose there's an exploit in the CPU. Now anything can make your bus explode. <-- only if the bus trusts the CPU! 22:56:21 and it also needs some sort of explosive device built in 22:56:53 Sgeo, why would I browse with same user account? 22:56:55 How is that ever going to happen? 22:56:55 that is just silly 22:57:38 Vorpal, oh, so ~/local with installed stuff is different from regular usage account? 22:57:49 Now: To get that model of security into everyone's hands 22:58:43 Sgeo: There's ways of getting executable-specific permissions (y'know, where each *program* is limited in what it can do based on what the program is, rather than who's running it). 22:58:55 Sgeo: The *problem* is that it's often a royal pain to deal with. 22:59:14 Sgeo, err what? 22:59:27 Sgeo, no, browser runs under a non-regular account 22:59:33 Sgeo: Still, some distros are actually shipping using that. 22:59:33 Ah 22:59:42 (@ Vorpal) 22:59:55 pikhq, you mean ipsec, rsbac, and such 22:59:59 pikhq, apparmor too 23:00:03 Vorpal: SELinux and friends. 23:00:21 of course, the ubuntu profiles for apparmor for user applications are generally useless 23:00:28 since they more or less allow $HOME 23:00:48 and writing a profile for firefox would be extremely hard 23:00:52 I know that they do that to make it easier to deal with, but doesn't that kinda defeat the point? 23:01:00 Hmm 23:01:02 pikhq, indeed 23:01:48 apparmor_status claims there are profiles for tcpdump, cupsd, ntpd, various network-manager things and so on. evince is the only "user app" that has a profile 23:02:05 and well, writing profiles for daemons is way way simpler 23:02:05 Nothing that requires deep analysis of programs, I thin... well, maybe. Would it be ok if profiles were written by the developers of the programs, or is that a fundamentally stupid and idiotic idea? I'm thinking the latter for not completely trusted programs, but my understanding of AppArmor might not be complete 23:02:31 Sgeo, well depends on if you trust them 23:02:37 if you are worried about bugs 23:02:41 then yes probably 23:02:48 Hmm 23:03:02 I think the idea I want is to have to trust as little as possible 23:03:14 Sgeo, then you need to write them yourself, have fun 23:03:17 How much access could Joe Schmoe random userland app possibly want? 23:03:21 oh and write your own browser 23:03:26 * Sgeo ignores AppArmor 23:03:46 Just trying to think of a nice usable security model 23:03:52 I think I hate this keyboard. 23:03:54 Sgeo, consider firefox: saving download needs access. Same does file upload 23:03:59 both are things you sometimes want 23:04:05 Hmm, true 23:04:36 Isn't there work on a user-friendly capabilities system? 23:04:48 Security is really, really, really annoying with a traditional, hierarchical filesystem. 23:04:59 Sgeo, or what about checking a .html file locally, if you are testing a website, or just browsing local documentation 23:05:29 pikhq, actually iirc plash has some sort of override-file-open-gtk-widget-with-trusted-one 23:05:42 to allow selective access 23:05:44 Vorpal: I'm not sure you can call that a traditional, hierarchical filesystem. 23:05:45 :) 23:05:55 pikhq, well it is accessing one 23:06:06 pikhq, but true, it isn't one in itself 23:06:10 It just... Displays as one. 23:06:34 I totally need to download and try the unetin thing before I try recovering Windows, in case that wipes out more than it should. 23:06:52 I don't need AppArmor and SELINUX and that stuff; when I make something in Linux for program capability security, instead I can add a single system call for that purpose: set_overcall(int system_call_number,void*(*new_function)(void*args,int flag)) 23:07:01 catseye, unetin? is that different from unetboot? 23:07:06 unetbootin 23:07:11 catseye, also: "recovering"? what happened? 23:07:21 zzo38: ... So, you're wanting something that can trace system calls? 23:07:34 zzo38, you mean.... ptrace? 23:07:41 Yeah, we call that ptrace. 23:08:06 zzo38, it exists, and is what debuggers use 23:08:10 pikhq: Something like that. set_overcall would be able to override itself as well, and you would need to do so if you want to have actual security. 23:08:26 As well as stealth so that application programs cannot tell they are overridden. 23:08:31 Is there a useful subset of turing-completeness that would allow solving the halting problem, while still being powerful enough for most uses? 23:08:36 well, you could easily do that in ptrace, just catch any ptrace related syscalls 23:08:40 and do something else instead 23:08:56 Yeah, it's perfectly feasible. 23:09:07 Vorpal: no, i meant unetbootin. 23:09:08 Vorpal: O, is that what ptrace does? OK, I suppose perhaps that can work 23:09:18 catseye, ah 23:09:34 But I will need to learn how (hopefully I will learn how) 23:09:42 zzo38, ptrace does a lot of things. It is able to set breakpoints and so on after all for debuggers 23:09:48 and prod registers and what not 23:09:57 Sgeo: Yes, it's called "primitive recursive functions" 23:10:02 Plash *intends* to eventually use ptrace for their sandboxing. 23:10:08 -!- Kater has joined. 23:10:10 pikhq, indeed 23:10:43 Oh, yeah. 23:10:49 pikhq, hm? 23:10:55 ptrace is/was used to implement User Mode Linux. 23:10:57 -!- Kater has left (?). 23:11:01 To trap all system calls. 23:11:03 pikhq, what, really!? 23:11:08 Vorpal: How else would it? 23:11:29 pikhq, didn't it run a kernel in user space? 23:11:34 Yes. 23:11:42 And ran normal executables on that. 23:11:46 hrrm 23:11:55 pikhq, how does virtualbox and such do it 23:12:10 It emulates a computer. 23:12:18 I am SHOCKED 23:12:28 pikhq, actually since syscalls are done by jumping to a specific address in the program (the vdso) it would be easy to just change that one to do something else 23:12:42 pikhq, not very... reliable though 23:12:50 Vorpal: Or via int 0x80. Or via a CPU instruction. 23:13:05 pikhq, iirc that is what the actual vsdo does 23:13:07 but yeah 23:13:12 a bit tricky 23:13:19 Yeah, but it's also supported to go into the kernel directly. 23:13:25 pikhq, indeed 23:13:25 And this was the norm before 2.6. 23:13:30 so you need ptrace 23:13:34 Yup. 23:13:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:13:50 pikhq, what the hell does ps aux look like with uml running? 23:14:03 pikhq, will there be some weird init process at a non-standard number? 23:14:16 Normal in the UML. 23:14:26 pikhq, I meant on host 23:14:27 Outside, there's a single vmlinux process. :) 23:14:39 pikhq, so, it doesn't show the interior ones? 23:14:46 No. 23:14:49 How often does anyone ever want to upload system files? 23:14:51 pikhq, also how does uml detect a syscall from the uml kernel to the real kernel 23:14:52 It does its own scheduling! 23:15:14 Sgeo, um, it happened that I attached /var/log/dmesg to bug reports 23:15:30 Vorpal: Well, it's running in its kernel space, so it'll just *not* trap the syscall. 23:15:52 pikhq, err... what 23:16:00 pikhq, oh it is ptracing itself? 23:16:05 Yes. 23:16:11 It runs as a single process. 23:16:18 pikhq, I thought it would be two processes for that at least 23:16:23 Nope. 23:16:31 crazy indeed 23:16:46 It can't do memory protection, though. 23:17:00 I *think* in 2.6 they added a system call to allow them to manage that. 23:17:03 pikhq, so any process can write to the memory of any other process inside the uml? 23:17:08 Yuh. 23:17:13 pikhq, *urgh* 23:17:31 Well, what else can they do? 23:18:01 pikhq, that means a user space program could just over write the ptrace handler and be out and free 23:18:06 It's running a *completely* unmodified userland in user space. 23:18:47 pikhq, it could single step the code :P 23:19:15 Grrrr at older game that wants access to HD in normal use 23:20:12 "As of Linux 2.6.0 it is integrated into the main kernel source tree. A method of running a separate kernel address space (skas) that does not require host kernel patching has been implemented; This improves performance and security over the old Traced Thread approach, in which processes running in the UML share the same address space from the host's point of view, which leads the memory inside the UML to not be protected by the Memory manageme 23:20:13 nt unit. Unlike the current UML using skas, buggy or malicious software inside a UML running on a non-skas host could be able to read the memory space of other UML processes or even the UML kernel memory." 23:20:17 pikhq, from wikipedia 23:20:29 pikhq, now I wonder what the magic syscall is 23:28:15 pikhq, ever used colinux? 23:28:18 it is rather weird 23:28:50 elliott: Sigh. I am downloading the NetBSD 5.0.2 install ISO, via torrent. 23:31:26 but it's only 250MB, a torrent seems superfluous compared to finding a fast mirror :) 23:33:36 olsner: perhaps. partly i was curious. 23:34:06 torrents are also easier to continue when interrupted. 23:34:15 I have now posted the version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB. Watch! 23:34:25 * catseye runs for cover 23:34:34 you have to time it carefully to interrupt the download before it's done! :) 23:34:36 It has many new features and fixed features from old one 23:36:13 olsner: ... i think we live in different worlds of network access. 23:36:37 we have this thing here called "AT&T" and it is truly amazingly bad. 23:37:13 You are expected to complain about version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB now, so that I can fix it and also answer question, please. 23:37:18 -!- augur has joined. 23:38:05 catseye: Now you are also expected to complain about "AT&T" 23:38:41 zzo38: To be quite honest, I tried reading regular CWEB a few weeks ago, and could barely handle it. I don't think I'm ready for Enhanced CWEB. 23:39:19 catseye: you should get the thing called Internet instead, it's the dog's bollocks supposedly 23:39:58 olsner, I once downloaded ubuntu over http, turned out it was corrupted, some bytes had just gone missing. Used it as a starting point for redownloading it over bittorrent, about half of the thing (the first half) was usable 23:40:05 the rest was just off by a few bytes 23:40:11 where those few bytes had gone missing 23:40:27 catseye: OK. Which parts could you not handle? And are there things you don't understand? Features you should want different from normal CWEB? etc? 23:40:46 olsner, since then I download any iso I can over bittorrent rather than httpo 23:40:48 http* 23:41:40 Vorpal: I suppose bittorrent is good for large files, that is one of the things bittorrent is intended to do; which is, large files (such as videos, but it can be used for Linux distributions, too) 23:42:01 someone could build a wget-torrent that on-the-fly checks a http download from a fast mirror against a torrent file with hashes 23:42:02 zzo38, well, large enough that a failed download hurts in this case 23:42:04 (In addition, Ubuntu contains some videos) 23:42:18 Vorpal: Yes. 23:42:24 olsner, cool idea 23:45:52 catseye: I would like to know which parts you don't like, I am curious (and perhaps to make a survey, too) 23:47:53 zzo38: I guess in the most general sense, the way I look at literate programming is more like literate Haskell, than CWEB. 23:48:22 I should look for my library card 23:48:25 That is, it is English (or other natural language) text, mixed with code, but it is basically linear. 23:48:32 There are some ebooks that my library has that I want to read 23:48:35 CWEB is more like hypertext. 23:49:44 btw, the CWEB source I was looking at is in: http://www.fourmilab.ch/fist/ 23:50:03 catseye: Ah. Yes, I know about literate Haskell. I prefer Enhanced CWEB, though (but that is just me) 23:50:07 Which is also maybe a bad example because the program is relatively small and easy to understand. 23:51:06 * Sgeo assumes that zzo38 is going to make an almost completely secure, easy-to-use OS that only he will end up using 23:51:17 * Sgeo quickly scratches easy-to-use off 23:51:30 Easy for zzo38-usage >.> 23:52:06 OK. I also don't like some of the notation used in normal CWEB; Enhanced CWEB uses some different notations that are improvement in my opinion. 23:52:11 * Sgeo hopes that none of what he just said can be construed as offensive 23:53:19 Sgeo: It doesn't offensive to me (but many things are not offensive to me, since I support freedom of speech). Still, you might be correct about those statements. 23:53:45 (I don't know about if it is offensive to other people or not.) 23:54:52 I fully support the enhancement of all software, even if it's not something I'll ever use. 23:56:00 Some of the different notations in Enhanced CWEB are: normal equal sign for == and left arrow for = and up/down arrow for ++ and -- and optional line numbers in small fonts and using typograpical quotes for string delimiters, and so on... 23:56:06 catseye: I agree with that too 23:56:33 catseye: And it is also the reason to make fork of software.