00:00:18 pikhq: I want to write a compiler now. 00:00:22 Dammit life is awesome, have you ever noticed? 00:00:30 i think that deutsch was only gebrochen due to a missing suffix on the gebrochen 00:00:34 You can DO SO MANY COOL THINGS in it. 00:00:37 Like, every day! 00:00:53 alise_: Hah. 00:00:54 i have to go buy bandages now 00:00:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:01:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:01:10 Headphones are awesome. 00:01:19 pikhq: But LIFE moreso! 00:05:07 pikhq: My preferred tags for an album are completely at odds with the completely official, multiply-confirmed ones. You may now maul me 00:10:42 alise_: How so? 00:11:18 pikhq: I'll say in /msg since it's irrelevant and long 00:12:42 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise. 00:13:05 BTW, TV rips of series that are on DVD make baby Jesus cry. 00:33:24 x `seq` () `seq` x _probably_ == an evaluated copy of x <-- i think that's exactly equivalent to x by definition 00:33:37 oerjan: hm right 00:33:55 pikhq: So does Nazism. 00:33:57 and as usual x will only be evaluated if the whole thing is 00:35:26 pikhq: i don't see why rnf can't just be a -> a 00:36:13 hm rnf is just one of the evaluation strategies right? now what if you wanted a strategy that did _not_ evaluate... it couldn't reasonably be a -> a 00:36:31 heh 00:36:43 isn't it just deepseq's thing? maybe not 00:36:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:37:04 i recall this from Control.Parallel.Strategies 00:38:18 rnf is deepseq essentially, but there are others that evaluate stuff in parallel instead 00:41:44 coppro: HURRY UP WITH THAT MIDTERM 00:41:55 oerjan: this is part of DeepSeq though in pikhq's code 00:41:58 pikhq: Make your compiler MORE AWESOME 00:42:31 alise: done 00:42:37 coppro: okay. 00:42:48 coppro: should i expect an email back from the mathNEWS people or will it just appear? 00:42:51 (in the next issue) 00:42:57 alise: oh right rnf is a method of DeepSeq? but it's also the right type for those strategies iirc 00:42:58 alise: one or the other 00:43:05 coppro: that's so helpful 00:43:07 :) 00:43:23 @src DeepSeq 00:43:23 Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over. 00:43:39 :t rnf 00:43:40 forall a. (NFData a) => a -> Done 00:43:46 huh 00:44:54 i guess Done = () 00:46:04 Apparently Civilization (the original) had barbarian diplomats. <-- currently on front page of reddit: http://i.imgur.com/kWy5z.jpg 00:46:18 i guess that's from the newest version 00:46:45 Damn those barbarian paratroopers! 00:47:35 diplomatic paratroopers 00:47:49 coppro: wow, how do you guys even have a tv show 00:47:49 well 00:47:54 for a definition of tv equal to yt 00:48:00 also you guys = most vague use of tha tterm ever 00:48:38 no kidding 00:49:22 *that term 00:49:39 coppro: my current perception of it is that about 10 people go to your university and they all write mathNEWS 00:49:48 do not attempt to disillusion me of this notion 00:51:38 -!- augur has joined. 00:52:10 Banshee. *It fucking does video metadata*. 00:52:21 Must try. 00:52:51 pikhq: NO 00:52:53 Banshee is AWFUL 00:53:04 pikhq: Imagine iTunes. Now imagine transplanting iTunes onto Mono. 00:53:14 Bloat defined. 00:53:24 pikhq: It most likely just stores it in a database. 00:53:26 Like iTunes. 00:53:28 Oh god. 00:53:34 That is revolting. 00:53:58 WHY CANT THERE BE A NICE VIDEO PLAYER 00:54:07 pikhq: *cough* You know what this is leading up to... 00:54:12 LET'S INVENT OUR OWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE AND GUI LIBRARY 00:54:15 ALSO VIDEO PLAYER, AFTER ALL THAT 00:54:39 "The chronology is sometimes associated with Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago." Umm... Wikipedia. 00:54:42 You mean 6000 years. 00:55:06 -!- Kordalien has joined. 00:58:29 well do _all_ YEC agree on the precise date? 00:58:42 * oerjan vaguely recalls no 01:01:25 alise: Also change the entire distribution infrastructure. 01:01:35 pikhq: Of course 01:01:41 oerjan: it's 5,000 -- 10,000 years basically 01:01:47 definitely not millennia 01:01:54 pikhq: Actually a nice GUI library for C would be nice. 01:02:02 um that _is_ millennia 01:02:20 alise: Say, make it so that all broadcast shows are sent out via an RSS feed alike, with a BitTorrent alike. 01:02:27 alise: With archives, of course, instantly downloadable. 01:02:35 millennium means 1000 years, millennia is the plural 01:02:53 pikhq: oh i thought you mean software distribution 01:02:54 :^) 01:03:10 iirc there was some work done on streaming bittorrent but i have no idea how that works 01:03:19 with it being out-of-order 01:04:06 alise: Wikimedia is currently testing it -- a combination of HTTP and BitTorrent, actually. 01:04:16 pikhq: ew. 01:04:40 Use HTTP to fetch anything needed immediately, use BitTorrent to try and fetch stuff that's later in the stream. 01:04:49 pikhq: grotesque :) 01:06:08 Ain't it though? 01:09:55 alise: I want to write an article, what should it be about? 01:10:15 coppro: write an errata for my errata 01:10:24 coppro: i can send you the full version 01:10:31 lol 01:10:39 (note: my errata is pretty indisputably factually correct in every way that it actually tries to be factual, so this will be difficult) 01:10:49 not really 01:11:04 coppro: "Actually, this IS valid Python code! Because I say so!" 01:11:04 "errata: this article appears to be properly researched. In order to alleviate this concern, the following changes have been made" 01:11:28 coppro: I approve. 01:11:41 coppro: I have this sneaking suspicion that gmail's spam filter doesn't like my post, what with it being long and markuppy... 01:11:46 *email not post 01:11:54 hang on, I'll ask CorruptED to check right now 01:12:59 coppro: I am so glad the editors are corrupt. 01:13:14 coppro: I also sent a reply to that one correcting an error caused by gmail. 01:13:43 hang on, the email account is busy 01:14:36 i have to go asap 01:15:51 ok 01:16:28 i am, however, insane enough to wait to see if it's received yet 01:16:31 because dammit this stuff is IMPORTANT! 01:16:51 alise: what's the article about? 01:16:54 receipt confirmed 01:17:22 coppro: & the reply? okay. 01:17:24 now put it on the front page 01:17:55 zeotrope: Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS. 01:18:10 alise: can you send me a copy so that I can write errata to it? 01:18:22 mathNews, fun paper 01:18:41 coppro: certainly. 01:18:45 thanks 01:18:51 coppro: sec. 01:18:58 coppro: http://filebin.ca/wpeogf/mathnews-errata.html 01:19:13 "Firstly, it appears that this article was written by a Brit. To correct for this, remove every usage of grammar." 01:19:18 (Yes, it's not HTML, but.) 01:19:19 coppro: what :D 01:19:30 coppro: the most solid point is the last one, btw 01:19:32 indisputable 01:19:37 [[Printed in a newspaper with an incorrectly spelled name. While &mn; is an excellent newspaper, it unfortunately has a major blight against it: the incorrect spelling of its name as ``&mn;'', rather than the correct ``mathsNEWS''. This is the most severe flaw.]] 01:22:24 coppro: so yours will appear in the next issue? 01:22:30 or the same? <-- that would be super-ludicrous 01:23:55 alise: quite comprehensive 01:24:20 zeotrope: bear in mind the original article is like six lines :P 01:24:30 i will squeeze every drop of blood from this stone 01:25:31 *null must be trembling 01:25:49 quite 01:25:51 whoever he is! 01:25:56 darned canucks 01:26:05 how dare he fill such an esteemed paper with garbage 01:26:13 YES I KNOW the rest of it is so accurate 01:26:22 coppro: btw, i expect similar treatment of getting the gold master copy of yours before it's published 01:26:28 so i can publish my meta^2errata 01:26:32 that is all 01:26:39 alise: Y'know, fuck Hulu. It falls so short of what it could be. 01:26:49 pikhq: yeah. and fuck Hawaii too! 01:26:50 egg foo young is delicious D: 01:26:51 A set of RSS feeds attached to BitTorrent for me to gleefully download. 01:26:53 i leave you with this. 01:26:54 goodnight. 01:26:55 bye. 01:26:56 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:27:17 And no ads. 01:27:45 it is still technically piracy 01:27:50 *buzz kill* 01:28:11 but I agree 01:28:14 zeotrope: Hulu is... Actually not piracy. 01:28:25 I was talking about RSS + torrents 01:28:56 which is definitely more convenient 01:29:27 Which is the point. :) 01:29:45 some people frown on the piracy part 01:30:42 and Hulu doesn't work outside of the USA 01:31:10 so torrents are the only other option for many people 01:32:02 country restricted content, what is this 1970? 01:32:48 As far as they're concerned, yes. 01:32:55 Oh, also: SCREW FLASH. 01:32:59 FLASH SUCKS FOR PLAYING VIDEO. 01:33:03 darn, he's gone :( 01:36:59 Flash sucks. Flash really, really, really sucks. 01:37:09 yes yes it does 01:41:10 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Flash. 01:41:16 Aww, registered 01:41:18 -!- Flash has changed nick to Sgeo. 01:46:45 > 7^3/40 01:46:46 8.575 02:13:26 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:45:26 http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/this-october-has-5-fridays-5-saturdays-and-5-sundays-all-in-one-month-it-happens-only-once-in-823-years/ 02:45:29 That's it. 02:45:32 I surrender. 02:45:35 I hate humanity. 02:46:23 er... 02:47:05 Two of my friends "liked" a page claiming that 02:48:44 ok so the first part is actually correct 02:49:53 and the second obviously false for two different reasons i can think of 02:50:17 What tipped me off was noticing that that's the same (or, at least, a superset of) months whose 1 is on a Friday and which have 31 days 02:50:36 And I think you may be the second person I linked that to who didn't actually read the post 02:50:43 (1) it only depends on what day the first is on (2) the calendar _actually_ repeats every 400 years 02:50:53 oh i've started reading it 02:51:06 i'm just thinking about why it's false first :D 02:54:51 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:56:53 Well, it also depends on the month having 31 days 02:57:22 um i mean the year variation 02:57:41 Ah 02:58:15 Well, depends on what day the 1st is, and whether or not it's a leap year, right? 03:00:13 _for october_ the leap year doesn't matter 03:00:44 Blargh? 03:00:58 i meant the first day of october, not of the year 03:01:00 Are we talking Jan 1st's effects on October, or the day that Oct 1 is? 03:01:01 Ah 03:01:14 sheesh one really has to spell out everything here 03:01:35 >.> 03:09:00 -!- lament has joined. 03:11:17 MAJOR FAIL: (roughly translated) "The Baddie of cholesterol is LDL, sources of which for example include cheeses.". 03:11:33 cheesy science 03:12:12 There is only one cholesterol. LDL is not cholesterol. And Cheeses don't contain LDL. 03:15:45 Oh, the original is apparently (roughly translated): "The baddie of cholesterol is LDL, which is only contained in hard animal fats. For instance cheeses include those".". Just as much fail: Animal fats do not contain LDL. 03:17:18 1) "the baddie of cholesterol" doesn't have to be cholesterol 03:17:29 2) "source" doesn't mean "container" 03:17:36 the fail is you 03:19:16 LDL is made by liver. I have no idea if LDL survives digestion proceses. Probably not. 03:21:36 Nor are animal fats source of LDL... 03:21:57 Wow, there's lot more fail in this article... 03:23:45 Well, its based on recomendations by (national) heart disease association, so no wonder... 03:24:11 yeah those idiots know nothing about cholesterol 03:24:59 * Sgeo was taught that HDL was "good" and LDL was "bad" 03:26:13 There are subtypes of LDL. Some better, some sightly worse. Then there's real nasty kind that shows up as "LDL" (but isn't) on common panels. 03:27:27 Oh, and statins (cholesterol-lowering drugs) don't do much to that real nasty kind... 03:29:08 But then, the common way of determining LDL yields quite wild results that are often quite wrong. 03:29:33 (HDL is measured and total cholesterol is measured, those are fairly accurate). 03:31:59 That kind being "real nasty", one would expect that it would be quite strongly associated with heart disease. Indeed it is. 03:35:12 Sgeo: Nutrition is much more complicated than "X is good for you and Y is bad". 03:36:06 Well, except that modern, industrial processed foods tend to be bad for you. :P 03:37:53 Oh, yeah, and typical American portion sizes. 03:38:03 That's... Pretty obviously bad. 03:43:10 Maybe I should start eating typical American portion sizes 03:43:43 But _WHY_ are typical american portion sizes so large? 03:44:57 but why is it pretty obviously bad? 03:45:38 Because it shouldn't be possible and indicates that something is badly wrong? 03:46:21 what shouldn't be possible? 03:46:42 The huge american portition sizes... 03:46:53 why shouldn't they be possible? 03:46:58 lament: Imagine a gigantic feast. We call it a "meal". 03:47:20 pikhq: i'm sure you realize that's total bullshit 03:47:20 Because very few should be able eat so much at once... 03:47:33 * Sgeo needs to eat more, so... 03:47:34 Ilari: nobody has any problems, really 03:47:52 just come to a restaurant and go crazy 03:48:09 Sgeo: "Just eat more and excercise less" is just as bad advice as "eat less and excercise more". 03:48:32 Hmm? 03:48:38 lament: 64 fl oz of soda (about 2L). As a single serving. 03:48:43 Need I say more? 03:49:02 pikhq: that's not a standard serving size. 03:49:33 pikhq: i understand europeans perpetuating retarded stereotypes about americans, but you're american yourself and still doing that? 03:49:36 No, you're more likely to find 32 fl oz. 03:49:36 that's pretty dumb 03:49:58 Here large bottle of soda is 1.5l... And the standard bottle (which is apparently meant as "serving" (ignore what manufacturers try to claim) is 0.5l. 03:50:01 With free refills. 03:50:41 * Sgeo tends to insist on small soda. If I get a large cup, I'll fill it up, then drink it all, and that's rather... uncomfortable 03:51:12 Also, what, exactly, is wrong with eating more? 03:51:18 For thin persons 03:51:28 more than what? 03:51:44 lament: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ryany/BigMacExtraValueMeal.jpg 03:52:32 pikhq: yup. so? that's actually smaller than most meals at a restaurant. 03:52:41 That's 3,000 calories. 03:52:47 Ooh 03:52:59 What's the daily amount, 20,000? Or is it 2,000? 03:53:04 Sgeo: 2,000. 03:53:21 Well, that's what the FDA bases their recommendations on. 03:53:37 So I could just eat that and not need to eat anything else for the day? 03:54:13 Well, taking in too many calories isn't good because high metabolism isn't good (and the alternatives are even worse). 03:54:21 Well, no, because it's fairly devoid of nutrients. It just has the caloric content that it was declared one needs. 03:54:30 As a single meal. 03:54:30 pikhq: there're 1350 calories in a large big mac meal 03:54:33 stop trolling 03:54:39 lament: That's a super size big mac meal. 03:55:37 Second law of thermodynamics: "Calorie is not an calorie.". :-) 03:55:43 lament: Erm, sorry. I gave the wrong damned number. 03:55:46 *a 03:55:49 lament: That's... 1580. My fault. 03:55:53 Still bloody absurd. 03:55:58 well, there you go 03:55:59 Just significantly less so. 03:56:08 I think my pasta that I eat each night has over 1k calories 03:56:24 pikhq: 1580 for a larger than normal portion 03:56:45 For some people, it's larger than normal. 03:56:47 Ilari, what are the chances of me being able to talk to a competent person somewhere in the US? 03:56:53 For others, that's smaller than normal. 03:56:57 Get a nutrition plan worked out 03:57:35 Sgeo: Pretty slim (unless you pick carefully). 03:57:42 (granted, you're talking a small but fat portion of the population when you're discussing the people who actually do stuff like have multiple Big Macs in a sitting) 03:58:22 With soda and fries? 03:58:45 Ilari: Well, of course. 03:59:17 Wasn't the "big mac guy" in "Supersize Me", well... Not fat? 03:59:34 I'm quite perplexed about that as well. 04:00:19 Though it does demonstrate that absurd amounts of food won't automatically make you fat. 04:01:01 My step-mother constantly tells me that I'm not eating enough 04:01:05 Well, its about fat in - fat out. Not calories in - calories out (unless you define the latter quantities to make it a tautology). 04:01:06 It's probably true, but still 04:01:15 (and that's at storage boundary). 04:01:28 If I want advice, I can't get it from her, no matter how competent, or not, she may be, because she'll drive me up the wall 04:01:42 Ilari: Well, calories are nothing more than a rough estimate of how much energy you get out of that food, so... Yeah. 04:01:45 She does drive me up the wall 04:02:27 (incredibly rough when you consider that there's freaking sugar water as a common beverage.) 04:02:33 If it was fat_absorbed - fat_burned, then it would be just plain _wrong_. 04:03:05 Because there's fat synthethis term as well, and it certainly can be nontrivial. 04:06:22 pikhq: Not to mention, same macronutrients can provode different amounts of energy depending on amounts of other macronutrients... 04:07:44 Oh, and then there is stuff like adjustable efficiency of ATP production... 04:08:06 Ilari: Shit's more complex than burning the dry food and seeing the change in temperature -- who would've thought! 04:08:22 Erm, change in temperature of the water above. 04:08:51 Not even all fats are equivalent calories. Let alone fats, proteins and cabohydrates... 04:09:07 * Sgeo would love to just be able to inject something that could deliver ATP to all his cells 04:11:12 Too bad that with what all cells can use (glucose), even few extra grams injected (fast) would be toxic... 04:11:50 o.O 04:12:32 IIRC, something like 3 grams in fast injection would cause your blood sugar to go to toxic levels... 04:12:32 a grassy mount Or set with two feet Gules winged Sable and in base a bar wavy Sable inscribed with zeros and ones Or 04:13:19 Or maybe it would take about 4 if blood sugar is slightly low. 04:14:52 (Amount of glucose circulating in blood of normal adult under normal conditions: About 5 grams). 04:16:48 Or, one could inject fatty acids. Considerably less toxic (but not all cells can use those... OTOH, body can produce glucose for those cells that absolutely need it). 04:17:26 Eh, just bring about the singularity. That'll solve it. 04:18:30 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:19:02 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:26:32 No, you stupid Flash video, you do not need to keep buffering, there is already a 5% of the video buffer and increasing. 04:27:02 Whoever wrote this: you suck at programming and you should be ashamed of yourself. 04:27:31 Oh, and Adobe: you suck at programming and you should be ashamed of yourself. 04:29:22 amen 04:32:15 -!- olsner has joined. 04:33:02 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:39:53 With "why are they eating such huge porititons" I meant things like why the satiety isn't kicking in? Why doesn't the body downregulate hunger and upregulate energy consumption to keep the weight in check? 04:44:52 Lack of exercise. The metabolism has nothing to calibrate with. 04:47:42 Does running to school/running for the bus count as excersize? 04:47:55 The amount of excercise required for that is very small (one pretty much has to go out of one's way to get that little)... 04:48:47 It does. 04:48:57 Ilari: I presume that means "you need to get out of bed and walk to the kitchen every now and then" kind of "little". 04:49:21 pikhq: Well, within that order of magnitude... 04:49:51 Ilari: Point being that you'd have to make a point of it to not do that. 04:50:07 Not to mention, excercise isn't important for weight control. One can also see this by comparing energy expended in NEAT vs EAT(a.k.a. excercise). 04:50:46 Well, if one has shortage of energy, then the excercise levels could drop a lot... 04:50:53 Well, I'd imagine it helps somewhat, in that it does actually expend energy. 04:51:45 When one is talking about energies expended by ten hour walk (or was it run?)... 04:52:40 The mechanisms body uses to waste energy easily waste order of magnitude more than one could burn by excercising. 04:53:35 And anywas, all the exercise in the world won't help you if you use more energy than you ingest. 04:53:41 s/anywas/anyways/ 04:53:48 Erm. 04:53:52 s/more/less/ 04:54:09 Though if you use more energy than you ingest, you might be having trouble as well. :P 04:55:37 There are some dangerous chemicals sometimes used for weight loss. If one overdoses on them, the primary toxic effect is that they make body literally cook itself producing energy for use. 04:56:12 That's... Frightening. 04:56:30 pikhq: Oh, your appetite should go down a lot as well when weight goes up... 04:56:37 Any nice chemicals for weight gain? 04:57:07 Sgeo: "Force-feeding", I believe is the term. 04:57:20 Sgeo: Though it's rather unlikely you actually need weight gain. 04:58:03 Sgeo: Well, I think I know couple, but they are not nice ones... 04:58:05 Presuming reasonable health and a lack of relevant mental disorders, of course. 05:00:56 As a kid, Supposedly, in an attempt to get me to eat on my own, suggested by a doctor, my parents didn't try to force me to eat, hoping I would eat on my own. 05:00:59 I didn't 05:01:44 Okay, you may have a disorder then. 05:02:21 Who wants to read/edit a silly game story for meeeee? 05:02:46 Gregor: Does it involve Americans being fatasses? 05:02:55 It /could/. 05:03:01 It doesn't, but it /could/. 05:03:04 Fair enough! 05:03:54 ANYWAY, I wrote a silly but appropriately-over-the-top opening sequence for ZEE: http://codu.org/tmp/story.txt 05:04:10 I just asked my dad, he said he thinks I might have imagined being told that 05:04:15 FUCK FALLIBLE MEMORY 05:04:25 FUCK IT IN THE ASS 05:04:36 Sgeo: So your disorder is just delusions, not dietary problems. 05:04:56 Gregor, since when is being human a disorder? 05:05:05 And my dad may be mistaken :3 05:05:18 Sgeo: Since roughly 1.5 million years ago, I'd say. 05:07:00 Gregor: Quite nice. 05:07:40 Gregor, that's awesome 05:08:09 Gregor: Also, you need more time. 05:08:20 I CAN'T MANUFACTURE TIME 05:08:26 For ZEE, what I need is more workforce! 05:08:35 Get cracking on the singularity! That'll solve it! 05:09:46 * oerjan is sensing a pattern here 05:10:48 -!- pineal_aenimal7 has joined. 05:11:39 hello esoterrorists :) 05:12:09 ALLAAAAH 05:12:14 Alaaaaan Turing 05:12:41 Slereah: ... I love you. 05:12:54 unsafePerformIO suicideBomb 05:12:56 -!- pineal_aenimal7 has changed nick to pineal_aenimal. 05:13:24 That could also be a point about people thinking this is esoterica 05:13:40 05:14:09 pikhq: Unsafe indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed! 05:15:19 thats good 05:17:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:17:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 05:17:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:17:27 -!- Kordalien has joined. 05:20:59 any one familiar with david wilcock? 05:23:01 Heheheh 05:23:04 cock 05:23:28 ...oh dear 05:24:45 alrighty. 05:25:32 * pineal_aenimal slaps pineal_aenimal around a bit with a large trout 05:29:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 05:32:22 -!- pineal_aenimal has left (?). 05:37:08 yay xmonad 05:37:16 Yay cdparanoia. 05:40:02 cdparanoia? 05:41:05 It rips CDs. And is sufficiently paranoid about it to ensure a perfect rip if at all possible. 05:41:17 ah 05:41:50 And does nothing else. It just dumps WAVs to disk. 05:42:00 SO similar to xmonad. 05:42:09 "if"? 05:42:37 Sgeo: It can't fix a disc made 100% opaque. 05:43:28 I'm having some trouble parsing that. You can't mean "literally unreadable by anything", can you? 05:43:43 That's too trivial 05:44:03 Wait, I guess portions could be fully opaque? Or am I just confused today 05:44:06 Sgeo: Too trivial for "if at all possible" 05:44:16 Give me a corner case. 05:44:20 Here's one. 05:44:23 No, not that one. 05:45:05 * Sgeo is tired :/ 05:48:38 Oh, yeah, it also often functions as a circumvention device. 05:50:14 (some CD copy protection schemes function by introducing intentional errors that a dedicated CD player will ignore) 05:51:35 Lots of people have single-purpose CD players nowadays. 05:54:55 Yeah, like, uh. 05:54:59 I got nothing. 05:55:21 You'll note that CD copy protection schemes kinda fell out of favor after a few years. :) 06:01:50 -!- sshc_ has joined. 06:04:55 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:12:46 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:12:52 Please help me. I tried to compile TeX but it just made a lot of errors, and it won't compile. 06:12:54 There is the errors: http://sprunge.us/SEhT 06:14:23 Can you please tell me what I did wrong? 06:20:39 Even the esoteric topics in computing channel cannot save you from Pascal. 06:21:31 -!- Kordalien has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]). 06:22:12 Save me from Pascal? I don't generally program in Pascal, but this is a program that is Pascal. 06:23:58 Is there some command-line parameter I need to add? 06:24:09 Haven't a clue, never built TeX myself. 06:28:26 Which options of GPC cause it to emulate Pascal-H? 06:40:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:43:12 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 06:43:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:48:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:51:16 Do I need to redefine alpha_file (in section 25)? I probably also have to redefine othercases 06:54:47 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:01:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:08:08 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:12:06 I got it to compile with no errors, but now it complains about 'his.tex' 07:12:36 IT WANTS A MATE 07:13:12 or maybe a divorce 07:13:22 I cannot find anything in the program about what 'his.tex' is supposed to be. 07:17:13 -!- myndzi has joined. 07:18:51 (I cannot find on Google or Wikipedia about what 'his.tex' is supposed to be, either.) 07:22:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 07:24:05 What could probably be done, although it would take a very long time, is looking at the source-codes of TeX and rewriting it in Enhanced CWEB, changing things as necessary as you are moving along. 07:25:08 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 07:25:35 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:28:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:28:30 Are you willing to collaborate on this project? 07:34:53 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:34:53 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:45:27 -!- tombom has joined. 07:54:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:47 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:01:59 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:13:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 08:20:59 -!- lament has joined. 08:27:55 -!- wareya_ has joined. 08:31:02 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:56:53 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:01:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 09:01:42 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:01:59 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:03:35 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:21:14 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:31:13 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:46:30 -!- iGO has joined. 09:52:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:54:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 09:57:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:31:06 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 10:55:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 11:15:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:38:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:54:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:17:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:20:01 -!- iGO has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:25:36 -!- iGO has joined. 12:42:10 -!- webquint has joined. 12:45:47 -!- webquint has quit (Client Quit). 12:53:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:05:42 -!- myndzi has joined. 13:10:43 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 13:12:14 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:43:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:43:49 yay, my paper was accepted 13:43:53 congrats 13:44:19 hmm, now what's going on? 13:44:28 nothing 13:44:29 IRC is working fine, but I don't seem to be able to create new Internet connections 13:44:33 not web or email, anyway 13:44:49 oh, started working again 13:44:52 it was just being really slow 14:25:28 -!- alise has joined. 14:29:27 hi alise 14:29:43 hi ais523 14:30:12 ugh, the Internet here is crazy 14:30:25 it sometimes doesn't form new connections for something like a minute, even though existing connections work fine 14:30:36 (at least, for web and email) 14:32:09 19:23:45 Well, its based on recomendations by (national) heart disease association, so no wonder... 14:32:09 19:24:11 yeah those idiots know nothing about cholesterol 14:32:24 i'm glad our channel op is such a fine, upstanding citizen who believes everything the american government tells him. 14:32:54 better check your BMI 14:33:03 ais523: is that at uni? 14:33:07 *this 14:33:28 yep 14:34:22 ais523: take over the networking department 14:34:39 ais523: err, can Wooble actually do that while he's on hold? 14:34:41 (deputise) 14:34:54 oh hm or is deputisation one of those things even non-players can do... 14:35:57 being on hold hardly stops anything 14:36:00 it's not like BlogNomic 14:36:11 mostly, it just lets people oust you from offices, and makes you ineligible for certain things 14:36:30 Such as winning when everyone else is winning 14:36:33 14:37:27 this about agora? 14:37:56 yes 14:38:57 i looked at that once. seems awfully complicated (as any nomic that has been in existence for years upon years must) 14:39:18 but i GUESS it at LEAST has fewer rules than certain versions of DnD... 14:39:49 Ilari: you should publish a book about nutrition :-) 14:40:32 Here is a quick summary of Java build systems: Q: What's the difference between Ant and Maven? A: The creator of Ant has apologised. 14:40:41 I still don't see why they don't just use make, it seems to work fine 14:40:57 meh, find | xargs javac works fine if you don't care about minimal recompiles 14:41:06 Wait, seriously? Someone apologized for making widely-used software? 14:41:38 Sgeo: it actually had a source for that statement, http://blogs.tedneward.com/2005/08/22/When+Do+You+Use+XML+Again.aspx 14:41:50 Sgeo: ant is awful 14:44:22 That sounds like an apology for an aspect of Ant 14:45:34 it sometimes doesn't form new connections for something like a minute, even though existing connections work fine <-- maybe some firewall issue? 14:46:04 05:43:49 yay, my paper was accepted 14:46:04 which? 14:47:08 one about hardware compilation 14:47:33 to be precise, we generalised a previous result from "programs that type in SCI can be compiled into hardware" to "programs that type in ICA can be compiled into hardware, with a few exceptions" 14:47:51 which is pretty nice, because unlike SCI, ICA doesn't have a bunch of arbitrary restrictoins 14:47:54 *restrictions 14:48:17 it was really much the same as a TC-ness proof, showing one lang compiles into another... 14:49:45 ais523: how's the Complex Systems publication going? ;) 14:50:04 revise-and-resubmit phase 14:50:14 with instructions that were too banal for me to be interested in them 14:52:05 heh 15:07:17 22:12:52 Please help me. I tried to compile TeX but it just made a lot of errors, and it won't compile. 15:07:21 zzo38: you don't compile TeX itself... 15:07:24 you compile the C translation 15:07:33 it's written in a crazy 70s Pascal that Knuth used 15:07:49 23:24:05 What could probably be done, although it would take a very long time, is looking at the source-codes of TeX and rewriting it in Enhanced CWEB, changing things as necessary as you are moving along. 15:07:51 again, the C translation 15:07:54 23:28:30 Are you willing to collaborate on this project? 15:07:55 hell no 15:08:23 at some point I need to figure out what Enhanced CWEB is 15:08:30 I can't even tell if it's a programming language or not 15:09:00 ais523: you know Knuth's CWEB? 15:09:07 no, I don't 15:09:11 ais523: you know Knuth's WEB? 15:09:22 again no, but I've vaguely heard of it 15:09:42 ais523: WEB = the first literate programming system; TeX + Pascal. TeX is written in it, for instance. 15:09:58 Assign blocks of code to a name-with-spaces, include it later, macros, documentation all around it, etc. 15:10:01 ais523: CWEB = that for C. 15:10:05 ah, OK 15:10:10 ais523: Enhanced CWEB = what happens when you apply zzo38 to CWEB and peel it off after a few days. 15:10:14 and Enhanced CWEB is a zzo38 version 15:10:34 hmm, what's the converse of Not Invented Here? 15:10:47 when you assume that the entire world uses software that was written by you? 15:11:11 that seems to be unique to zzo38 and Microsoft 15:11:40 ais523: zzo38 has NIH too, though! 15:11:54 except it tends to be Not Invented Here, But That's Okay, I'll Cannibalise It 15:11:57 yes, the converse of something being true doesn't mean that the thing itself is false 15:12:01 indeed 15:12:06 ais523: hmm 15:12:12 ais523: Used Elsewhere 15:12:16 ais523: Used Everywhere 15:12:30 Microsoft: NIH, UE; zzo38: NIHBTOICI, UE 15:23:48 -!- sftp has joined. 15:31:04 alise, btw perhaps you know I'm against eyecandy animations and such? Today I realised what exactly is the issue with a lot of them 15:32:40 that they are slow enough that you end up having to wait before you can do whatever you planned to do next. For minimising windows on OS X, it is quite fast but still, I had to wait before I could start reading the text in the window behind due to the animation covering it, only a fraction of a second, but still enough to be annoying. 15:33:12 similar issues seem to apply to many other such animations. 15:33:23 Vorpal: That's just bad design. 15:34:08 Vorpal: A *good* hiding animation -- one that smoothly indicates what's happening -- would last only a few milliseconds, and the window would go semi-transparent too. 15:34:18 Perhaps even simply fade out *while on the way* to the dock. 15:34:38 This would help indicate what has happened -- believe it or not, your brain *can* act more efficiently with these cues -- without being irritating. 15:34:38 alise, indeed that would work, but that was not what that version of OS X did at least. 15:34:47 Vorpal: btw, you change and speed that animation up. 15:34:50 *you can 15:35:01 change: system preferences -> set it to the one that isn't genie, stops it being irritating as fuck 15:35:04 speed up: some terminal bullshit 15:35:06 alise, was helping someone with a thing, not my computer 15:35:09 yeah 15:35:18 anyway, it wasn't the genie one 15:35:21 that one is far worse 15:35:49 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:36:11 hi cpressey 15:37:20 alise, but anyway, the os x minimising is just a rather extreme example of it (especially the genie style), there are lots of other such animations on both windows (vista or later only) and OS X that takes a fraction of a second too long. Sure there are some that don't annoy, but I guess you don't really remember those. Selective reporting and such. 15:37:44 Modern UIs aren't designed with HCI principles in mind; news at 11. 15:38:01 hah 15:38:04 Jef Raskin died, now even less people care; news at 11. 15:38:07 *fewer 15:38:55 alise, the "zoom icon in dock while mouse is above it" is instantaneous as far as I remember, and is actually slightly helpful, at least if set to sane parameters for zoom level and such 15:39:27 Vorpal: It's not instantaneous -- it's... continuous. 15:39:35 As in, literally, the zoom changes focus even half-way between two icons. 15:39:44 The first hover over has a short animation to do the first zoom-and-expand of the Dock. 15:39:47 yes, but I meant like: 15:40:06 it doesn't take half a second if you quickly move your mouse down from middle of screen to the dock 15:40:06 I never turned it on; I could never predict where my mouse should go to reach an icon, due to the zooming. 15:40:10 Right. 15:40:11 as soon as it is above it is zoomed 15:40:29 It probably helps a lot if you have tons of stuff in your Dock and thus have it at a small size. 15:40:36 probably 15:41:52 alise, or menus/submenus that takes a fraction of a second before they open. iirc windows xp had something like that. Was annoying. 15:42:04 not an animation, but utterly pointless and not helpful at all 15:42:07 Vorpal: Uhh, as for submenus, GTK has that too. 15:42:09 As does KDE. 15:42:11 As does OS X. 15:42:16 As does *every interface you use*. 15:42:20 It's a shorter delay, but it's there. 15:42:32 Otherwise moving your mouse across tons of elements quickly would have menus flash everywhere. 15:42:33 alise, yes, short enough to not notice, that's the key 15:42:35 Disorienting, to say the least. 15:42:47 Vorpal: Try it now; I bet you will notice. 15:42:48 windows xp had "long enough to be annoying" 15:42:59 There's certainly a noticeable delay here, just not an annoying one or one you think about. 15:43:00 Vorpal: Well, yeah. 15:43:03 You could tweak that with TweakUI. 15:43:09 alise, indeed there is a tiny delay 15:43:23 alise, yes indeed, but why not make it right from the start 15:43:33 Vorpal: "It seemed like a good idea at the time." 15:43:46 TweakUI was released after XP. I don't think they changed the delay since at least 2000. 15:43:49 Maybe even before that. 15:44:00 And TweakUI's policy is basically "EXPOSE EVERYTHING", not "LET PEOPLE FIX EVERYTHING" 15:44:12 alise, as for menus all over the place, not really annoying, classic mac OS used to do it that way. As do some other windowing toolkits 15:44:18 * alise decides to run OS X in VirtualBox. 15:44:21 (on *nix) 15:44:22 "Hey, it can do EFI." 15:44:31 Although I'll have to emulate a 32-bit machine so this will be *fun fun fun*. 15:44:42 Oh god, it's distributed on a DVD, isn't it. 15:44:44 Plan abandoned. 15:45:14 (Yes, I have a copy of Leopard; no, I don't have an optical drive.) 15:45:28 when the base install of an OS doesn't fit on a single CD, something is wrong. :P 15:45:45 Vorpal: Yeah! Fuck you Slackware and Fedora! 15:45:51 Slackware is well-known for its bloat. 15:45:53 Totally. 15:46:14 alise, hm.... ubuntu: single cd, arch; single cd. And I don't mean netinstall. 15:46:22 Gentoo: single cd last I looked 15:46:33 though iirc they had a livedvd as well 15:46:34 Vorpal: It's simply a different distribution philosophy -- with the Slackware CDs, you can install anything you want. 15:46:46 hm 15:46:51 Vorpal: It *does* suck, though. 15:47:05 But it isn't indicative of bloat. 15:47:14 (Well, in OS X's case, it basically is.) 15:47:23 (To be fair, there is also a whole lot of stuff on there.) 15:47:36 alise, also note I said "base install". The definition of base install is rather fuzzy indeed. I would say it is completely different for arch and ubuntu for example 15:47:46 Still, you can fit your base install on a single CD just by defining a base install that's small. 15:47:46 bbl 15:47:48 Safari, all the i* programs, GarageBand, every single damn developer tool, misc. applications 15:47:56 pikhq: "Base install: The kernel!" 15:47:56 err 15:48:03 I think you can just about get Debian on a small stack of floppies still. 15:48:16 as long as i have butterflies flitting around on my desktop i'm happy 15:48:24 I know the *installer* still takes up 2 floppies. 15:48:55 pikhq, has some minimum requirements. Bootable, useable package manager, some way to edit config files, a shell, can connect to network. Arch is pretty close to that minimum. 15:49:26 Vorpal: I... Can do that on a single floppy disk. 15:49:30 *Barely*. 15:50:26 pikhq, indeed, it might be possible. However arch comes with a usable environment on the livecd too. Like you get a shell there. Useful to start any non-standard stuff like software raid or dmcrypt or such. 15:51:13 pikhq, and fitting that on a floppy as well would be.... tricky 15:51:31 pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. 15:51:43 pikhq, besides the kernel I need to boot my system, all the drivers I need compiled in and almost everything else turned off is about 2.5 MB iirc. 15:51:48 x86-64 though 15:51:53 Vorpal: No, you can have VESA. 15:51:57 You just don't want VESA. 15:52:17 alise, I do have VESA fb :P, and I have a system with just VGA, no fb support at all 15:52:23 not sure of kernel size 15:52:36 pikhq: Actually, howsabout figuring out a way to have functions on structures look nicer to call, and we can go from there and use that for namespaces. 15:52:37 and not going to boot it atm 15:52:58 hmm, that was a fun conversation 15:53:04 ais523, what was? 15:53:17 I was talking to my supervisor and another researcher about implementing the fixed-point combinator in hardware 15:53:19 -!- yorick has joined. 15:53:58 rather unambitiously, they agreed that even third-order fixedpoint combinators ((a->a)->(a->a))->a were practically useful 15:54:07 pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. <-- hm, not impossible, what about having some syntax sugar for appending a prefix to all identifiers, I guess that would approach C++ name mangling quickly, though with just namespaces you could do far cleaner than that 15:54:14 although I think you can get up to arbitrary orders (with the caveat that such circuits always have a risk of running out of memory) 15:54:24 Vorpal: I mean without modifying the language. 15:54:38 alise, ah... 15:54:47 -!- sshc_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:54:48 is preprocessing allowed? 15:54:50 alise: #define, #define, #define. done. 15:55:00 alise, _ for all identifiers? 15:55:04 Vorpal: You can put everything as function pointers in a structure, but (1) that's ugly to construct and (2) you'd start wanting to be able to do foo->x(...) for a structure foo to mean foo->x(foo, ...) which is harder :-) 15:55:09 Vorpal: but normally you want to be able to import namespaces 15:55:12 Vorpal: that's ugly and makes everything unconcise 15:55:15 ais523: not necessarily 15:55:26 even being able to just rename a namespace temporarily would be fine 15:55:28 e.g. gui to g 15:55:31 yes, that too 15:55:49 alise, is non-cpp preprocessing allowed? 15:56:26 alise, I mean, with a custom preprocessor this would be simple. You could make one small enough to compile as the first step in the makefile or such 15:56:49 now bbl really 15:57:04 m4! 15:57:11 <3 m4 15:57:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:58:29 alise: what about preprocessing? 15:58:57 if only #define did pattern-matching. you could hack something together quite nicely i think 15:58:59 yorick: cpp, sure 15:59:05 if you have to, I guess a simple textual substitution too 15:59:09 but nothing that involves tons of parsing :P 15:59:13 alise: but what about? 15:59:20 yorick: ? 15:59:29 what do you want to accomplish? 15:59:31 goal? 15:59:35 see above....... 15:59:57 * yorick can't find 16:00:15 pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. 16:00:16 onwards 16:00:17 hmm, I wonder if upp (which I haven't actually written yet, properly) would work for this? 16:00:23 ais523: upp? *scared* 16:00:30 the Underlambda Preprocessor 16:00:44 alise: what about namespaces in C 16:00:44 it basically just does literal textual substitutions, but with a couple of interesting twists 16:01:03 and is powerful enough to compile Underlambda into subsets of itself 16:01:23 yorick: see later on. 16:01:50 it's lacking context! 16:01:55 see logs 16:02:21 let's see, it has only two commands 16:02:30 one is / on a line by itself, which does nothing but which is referenced by the other command 16:02:37 and the other is a/b for any character strings a and b 16:02:38 ais523: is "itself" bound to Underlambda or upp? 16:02:44 cpressey: to Underlambda 16:02:47 k 16:02:53 * yorick arghs 16:02:58 cpressey: if it wasn't it'd be a trivial statement :) 16:03:18 since it means a subset of it could do underlambda code 16:03:18 what that does, is it substitutes all instances of a with b in a) the thing you're preprocessing; b) the preprocessor program itself, but only beyond the next lone / 16:03:21 alise: i dunno, a preprocessor that can compile a language into subsets of a preprocessor... 16:03:22 meaning the full thing is TC 16:03:25 meaning it could compile it 16:03:35 alise: for example, where are you responding to 16:03:40 additionally, a/b will not substitute in text that itself was produced by a substitution, unless a lone / has executed in the meantime 16:03:48 what* 16:03:57 yorick: nothing 16:04:01 there, that's pretty simple 16:04:16 but it lets you do block-replacements of fundamental commands, defining them in terms of each other 16:04:28 pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. <-- that has a "pikhq" in front of it 16:04:31 What are you lovable geeks discussing at the moment? 16:04:45 alise: even if it were TC, that wouldn't imply the statement was trivial 16:05:17 Phantom_Hoover: implementing fixed-point combinators and typed lambda calculus in hardware; namespaces in C; preprocessing Underlambda 16:05:30 also a metaconversation about what conversations are running 16:05:41 OK. 16:06:09 Phantom_Hoover: personally, no clue 16:06:23 cpressey: i suppose not 16:06:26 yorick: i was addressing pikhq. 16:06:47 alise: about what? :/ 16:06:57 yorick: about "Namespaces in C: solve." 16:07:05 oh. 16:07:07 * yorick gets it 16:09:19 Hmm... Skin overheating by having laptops on lap for too long... Article included talk about cancer... I wonder if PUFA oxidation due to heat is involved... 16:10:20 Ilari: Only if you use a stupid laptop with an overly-hot processor :) 16:10:27 And the fan too low. 16:11:52 Of course, enough heat / radiation will damage skin no matter what, but stuff like PUFA concentrations could determine how sensitive or resistant one is (PUFAs are chemically unstable)... 16:12:30 pikhq: Do you have any opinions on Go? 16:13:44 ais523: heh, remember that mergesort I said I couldn't figure out what was wrong with? 16:13:52 ais523: changing "< end" to "<= end-1" fixed it. 16:13:55 (not mine) 16:14:01 wait what? 16:14:09 was it using floats as loop counters? 16:14:25 (and non-integer floats, at that?) 16:14:32 or a buggy compiler? 16:14:37 or was the code/ really/ isane? 16:14:39 *insane 16:14:54 ais523: well, in this case, floating point was involved, but there wasn't a loop counter 16:15:00 it was comparing elements in an array 16:15:07 ah, and those were floats? 16:15:10 ais523: and tl;dr using floating-point infinity to denote end of array makes weird shit happen 16:15:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:15:56 oh, I see 16:16:02 screwing with infinities tends to do that 16:17:04 FP also has other weird shit like +0 and -0 are seperate numbers (that's actually useful in calculations). 16:18:04 -!- lament has joined. 16:18:28 Never did I think I'd see the day when there was a lambda calculus reference in a Star Wars webcomic. 16:24:26 pikhq: So, BF compilation. 16:27:00 -!- atrapado has joined. 16:27:42 -!- sshc has joined. 16:28:36 Go fialed horribly 16:28:38 failed* 16:29:25 Knot theory in Coq: has it been done? 16:30:03 It doesn't look like it from the first few Google results... 16:30:52 Knot theory in Coq 2: is it even sane? 16:31:30 hmm, I was just looking at the Linux manpage reboot(2) 16:31:37 and I get the feeling I'm missing something 16:31:47 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:31:55 some of the hex numbers were obfuscated by being translated to decimal, for no really obvious reason 16:32:01 and I don't see any significance in the hex either 16:32:53 on the Commodore 64 TCP/IP stack: "It doesn't do state tracking. It puts the state in the TCP sequence numbers. Save on RAM by passing state back and forth through the network." 16:33:10 that's... ingenious 16:33:13 ais523: one is linus' birthday 16:33:14 iirc 16:33:20 they all have significance as numbers 16:33:22 ah, OK 16:33:33 ais523: I know this because I wrote a program that calls it relatively recently :P 16:33:34 I was assuming it was something NSFW, based on how oblique they were being 16:33:49 heh 16:34:04 ais523: LINUX_REBOOT_* are constants for them in the kernel, RB_* in glibc 16:34:09 i suggest using the hex directly to avoid the headache 16:34:09 I understand the purpose (to make sure that reboot isn't called by mistake by a program in undefined behavior) 16:35:01 so, I am pretty sure my mind faked Wake-Induced Lucid Dreams to me today 16:36:06 as in, I was dreaming, and my mind made me think I was falling asleep consciously, and provided fake hypnagogic imagery and sounds to fool me into this 16:36:09 is that when you think you dream of waking up and are currently in a lucid dream, but actually you woke up for real? 16:36:14 leading to a dream-in-a-dream 16:36:22 lament: WILD is just a method of achieving lucid dreams 16:36:36 you stay conscious but become very relaxed and let your body go to sleep 16:36:44 sort of related to meditation, I guess 16:37:00 lament: but I think my dream decided to start with me falling asleep using WILD 16:37:13 alise: it sometimes end up dreaming I've worken up 16:37:14 and manufactured some hypnagogic imagery and (really irritating clanging) sounds to go with it 16:37:15 *wokrn 16:37:17 *wokrn 16:37:18 I should practice lucid dreaming some more 16:37:18 *woken 16:37:21 leading to a fumbled attempt at a lucid dream inside a non-lucid dream 16:37:24 where everything was hideously unrealistic 16:37:33 sometimes before i fully got "into" a dream induced that way 16:37:33 and gone through my normal morning routine 16:37:34 i tried to move 16:37:40 and then actually woken up and had to do it all over again 16:37:40 and i saw a flicker of the "real world" and me moving slightly in it 16:37:43 so I thought, I'm not asleep enough for that 16:37:45 but that can't be right 16:37:48 because you're paralysed by that point 16:37:52 and completely asleep 16:38:01 so I'm fairly sure that if i had let that happen, I'd have "woken up" into an actual dream 16:38:10 and presumably have performed a reality check due to the circumstances... 16:38:15 but i was too stupid to realise this at the time :) 16:38:17 then i woke up for real 16:38:19 ...or have I 16:38:23 OH GOD I HAVE 7 FINGERS 16:38:26 * alise has quit (Connection reset by peer) 16:38:28 once you know you have to perform a reality check, everything becomes pretty easy 16:38:29 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 16:38:41 but somehow, you rarely think of doing that in a dream 16:38:50 ais523: yeah I just look at my hands and if I have fingers sprouting out of my other fingers I just jump out the nearest window 16:38:58 that's the easiest way to get places in a dream! 16:39:04 (note: if I ever end up with deformed hands, I am so dead) 16:39:27 alise: oh, I tend to invent methods of transportation in my dreams 16:39:33 I tried the reality checks...most of them give false negatives inside dreams :/ 16:39:41 -!- alise has left (?). 16:39:42 -!- alise has joined. 16:39:45 as in, I was dreaming, and my mind made me think I was falling asleep consciously, and provided fake hypnagogic imagery and sounds to fool me into this <-- hm, soon there is no way we can trust anything :P 16:39:46 yorick: hands always works for me 16:39:54 I either have more than five fingers, or fingers are placed in ways that geometry doesn't quite allow 16:40:01 Vorpal: I N C E P T I O N 16:40:01 you know about the science-fiction idea of going somewhere distant via going there over the course of years (at near-lightspeed), but in such a way that the people aboard don't perceive most of it? 16:40:03 * quintopia checks his totem 16:40:11 alise, rings a bell but can't place it 16:40:16 what a strange discussion 16:40:18 ais523: I haven't heard of it, but go on. 16:40:23 alise: my fingers are always fine while I'm dreaming...and I can even touch them 16:40:24 obtw there is a channel for this 16:40:27 I never remember to perform reality checks when dreaming... 16:40:29 well, when I move around in my dreams, it's normally using a means of transport that does that over really short distances 16:40:30 Foonetic/#lucidity 16:40:31 Vorpal: a recent film about nested dreams-within-dreams 16:40:43 and I very rarely remember my dreams 16:40:44 Vorpal: and people from higher levels of dreams being able to change them and stuff 16:40:46 I haven't seen it 16:40:47 alise: I haven't tried breathing with my nose closed yet :/ 16:40:49 but it sounds worth watching 16:40:54 some sort of capsule thing that takes days to go just a few miles, but you're unconcious for most of it so don't care 16:40:56 alise, heh 16:40:58 yorick: the fun thing with more than five fingers 16:40:59 is that you can feel them! 16:41:04 you can use a finger to touch a fake one 16:41:06 alise: :o it was the best movie of the summer what's taking you so long? 16:41:09 and it feels like a strange buzzy feeling 16:41:13 quintopia: i'm lazy 16:41:23 alise, did you go into a lucid dream just to recreate Inception? 16:41:30 Because that is awesome. 16:41:30 Phantom_Hoover: :D 16:41:34 the thing that really annoys me about Inception, is that it seems that everyone who watches it goes to everyone they know and says "I watched Inception" 16:41:34 my mind did 16:41:45 to the extent that I worry that it's specifically designed to brainwash people into doing that 16:41:46 ais523: you know, you *can* just invent a magic mirror 16:41:47 * yorick was invisible last time :) 16:41:49 ais523, it's that cool. 16:41:53 you don't have to have sci-fi dreams 16:42:11 alise: I suppose it's to do with the sort of transport I use in RL 16:42:12 ais523: topic-quote! 16:42:23 I rarely move around via the fastest method 16:42:30 ais523: well, i did that, but i also saw it on the night it came out, so it wasn't a trend yet. now people do it because everyone keeps pestering everyone to see it so they have to tell them to stop the pestering 16:42:37 many of my esolang ideas are developed waiting at bus shelters 16:42:43 * quintopia pesters alise and ais523 16:42:44 ais523: Somehow, even when I'm totally lucid though, I can't convince myself that I can control reality. As in: it requires absolute belief in that what you're about to do will work to change the gameworld. I am apparently too rational to summon up such faith. 16:42:45 quintopia: oh, I see 16:42:53 ais523: This saddens me. 16:42:55 ais523, and a really strange transport method 16:43:16 alise: it works better if you invent a pseudoscience explanation, even if you don't believe in pseudoscience 16:43:19 ais523: Maybe I should become religious for the practice. 16:43:27 ais523: Unfortunately my periods of lucidity also tend to be short. :( 16:43:39 yeah...same...but you can prolong them :) 16:43:40 shift into the fourth dimension, do stuff there, with the knowledge that you can manipulate that based on the fact that you own the device that lets you go there in the first place 16:43:42 Also, I tend to sleep only when I'm really tired on weekends; this rarely seems to lead to dreams I remember for me. 16:43:46 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:43:51 alise: you only sleep once a week? 16:43:52 (spinning around will mostly work) 16:43:56 ais523, start traveling by train until you finish of the current unfinished ones then! 16:43:56 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try defining the braid group in Coq for the halibut. 16:43:57 yorick: I've done the tactics, like feeling a brick wall a lot and staring at the details. 16:43:59 ais523: Har har. 16:44:04 yorick: It never works. 16:44:09 oh, I misparsed your sentence 16:44:09 alise: works for me 16:44:17 reality check: can anyone here pinpoint the last time they had a stereotypical dream? 16:44:18 yorick: As soon as I move away and stop looking like someone with Down's syndrome, everything becomes fuzzy again. 16:44:19 I didn't even notice it was ambiguous until you assumed I was being sarcastic 16:44:25 alise, do it the mathematical way! 16:44:30 quintopia: even my stereotypical dreams are rather non-stereotypical 16:44:31 quintopia: wut? 16:44:35 Make the geometry hyperbolic! 16:44:42 alise: maybe...the brick thing works better? 16:44:49 ais523: with normal days, I don't sleep long enough for a nice lucid dream really 16:44:52 alise, there are some very common dreams and nightmares. 16:44:54 yorick: So just stare at a brick the whole time?? 16:45:04 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, I don't get them though. Or at least I never remember them 16:45:04 alise: how am I supposed to have bricks? 16:45:09 aka, a dream where your teeth are falling out and/or a dream where you are having trouble controlling a car/driving it from the back seat 16:45:10 yorick: ????????? 16:45:13 or maybe flying 16:45:15 yorick: I've done the tactics, like feeling a brick wall a lot and staring at the details. alise: works for me 16:45:20 yorick: As soon as I move away and stop looking like someone with Down's syndrome, everything becomes fuzzy again. alise: maybe...the brick thing works better? 16:45:30 (17:43) < alise> yorick: It never works. 16:45:33 I think I've had some serious up-messery of my scale perception before 16:45:34 (17:43) < yorick> alise: works for me 16:45:34 quintopia: I have never had any of those dreams. 16:45:38 quintopia, err... 16:45:40 i've had both of the former in the last month but I can't remember exactly when. I haven't flown since I was a child. 16:45:43 yorick: "how am I supposed to have bricks?" what does this mean 16:45:48 alise: how am I supposed to find bricks to stare at 16:45:49 But that was while trying to get to sleep, not actually once sleeping. 16:45:54 yorick: Uhh, leave the house you're in. 16:45:56 Look at the bricks. 16:45:57 quintopia, I guess stereotypical dreams differ between persons 16:46:00 yorick: You said works for me; presumably you already do this. 16:46:02 So why are you asking me? 16:46:12 alise, my house isn't made of bricks! 16:46:13 alise: because I recognize the feeling if it becoming fuzzy again 16:46:17 Vorpal: well, had any dreams that sound similar to those ideas? 16:46:19 I AM DISABLED 16:46:22 quintopia, not at all 16:46:23 alise: and yes, mostly the places I dream of are not made of bricks 16:46:32 quintopia, I never seem to have recurring themes in my dreams either 16:46:38 hmm, both my house and my workplace are made of bricks 16:46:56 usually either polished plastic or metal 16:46:56 Vorpal: mine rarely have recurring themes, but they tend to have consistent geography with each other 16:47:01 Phantom_Hoover: My most common recurring nightmare when I was young was -- imagine a zoomed-out satellite picture of a huge city on a regular British day -- not sunny, not raining. A ladder: I am on this ladder. It stretches down to the ground; my vision is that satellite picture. At the top: A hot air balloon. Someone in it -- that I recognise, encourages me to climb up further. 16:47:05 I do so. 16:47:09 which is unusual mostly in that the geography in the dreams is /not/ the same as the real world 16:47:12 ais523, that is a theme by the definition I used 16:47:15 But before I get close to the balloon, the ladder tips forwards and falls away. 16:47:16 i have had a few recurring themes. but my best dreams are one time only 16:47:18 I start falling and wake up. 16:47:20 Vorpal: ah, OK 16:47:40 my most recurring nightmares currently is being stabbed/shot by my friends :/ 16:47:42 alise: oh, you mean a solid ladder, rather than a rope ladder, etc. 16:47:42 ais523: interestingly, I universally start lucid dreams in a warped version of my old bedroom 16:47:46 ais523: yes, metal 16:47:48 are* 16:47:48 My dreams are either really boring or all very slippery in memory. 16:47:49 that's balanced on the balloon? 16:47:55 ais523: although it's only barely resting on the hot air balloon IIRC 16:47:57 ais523, I remember having two dreams tonight, one when the alarm clock woke me up, and one when it woke me up again after 5 minutes of snooze 16:48:01 so there's no real reason it should stay up for that long 16:48:02 that could be an interesting situation to set up in RL 16:48:04 ais523, I don't remember what they were about 16:48:06 but this *is* a dream 16:48:12 ais523: interesting, ha, you'll never see me on it :D 16:48:13 dream physics is different 16:48:15 ais523: anyway it was ridiculously high 16:48:19 like literally 16:48:37 I looked down and big landmarks were like my thumb and ... whatever the finger next to the thumb is curled together 16:48:41 alise: "ridiculously high" is about as accurate as you can get for dream physics 16:48:47 and "index finger" 16:49:02 The Millennium Dome wouldn't be very big, even. 16:49:15 I was *seriously* high up. 16:49:16 as for nightmares, haven't had one that woke up and/or that I remembered for months. Probably years 16:50:08 ais523: Anyway, it's weird -- once the ladder tipped forwards, it basically disappeared 16:50:09 strangely, the detail that normally causes me to reality-check and wake up is something really minor 16:50:13 alise: "ridiculously high" is about as accurate as you can get for dream physics <-- hm 16:50:14 last dream I remembered was having a conversation with the news-guy on the alarm clock when it was about to wake me up yesterday 16:50:24 alise: of course it did, a ladder that tall can't stand on end without something to support it 16:50:24 ais523, I have a vague memory of seeing an altimeter in a dream 16:50:26 so it clearly doesn't exist 16:50:35 I rarely wake up after a reality check, but lucidity never lasts long. 16:50:37 ais523: :D 16:50:40 ais523: I never said I became lucid 16:50:42 (note: this logic /actually works/ in dream physics) 16:50:53 ais523: I've always wanted to end a lucid dream by setting pi to 3. 16:51:05 I imagine everything would explode in a whirl of circles and I'd wake up as my dream physics engine crashes. 16:51:05 * yorick has never done a reality check that came out negative :/ 16:51:09 ais523, it was reading out something like "8238aj and half a donut" or something equally ridiculous though, though it seemed normal in the dream 16:51:16 yorick: try looking at a clock, look away, check it again 16:51:18 or try reading 16:51:20 reading is impossible in dreams 16:51:27 yorick: well, it mostly happens for me when not lucid; I'm not sure if I've ever been properly lucid 16:51:33 either I just go "wth...I'm dreaming!", or "I must be dreaming, lets try a reality check...no it never works" 16:51:35 but sometimes I randomly decide to reality-check and it comes out negative 16:51:35 you can only focus four words at a time and you can never seem to read them, and if you look even to the right a bit then back they'll have changed 16:51:44 and that always causes me to instantly wake up 16:51:45 yorick: you need to reality check in *usual* situations 16:51:49 the whole point is that dreams never seem unusual 16:51:50 alise: I tried that once, it pointed to 4:01 twice 16:51:51 I had a dream last night with a terrible book about Python in it. (The text was English prose, but it was syntax-highlighted similarly to Python...) 16:51:52 so you can't rely on that 16:51:56 I envy your entertaining dreams. 16:51:59 cpressey: wat :D 16:52:04 cpressey: you've been using pastebins too much 16:52:11 cpressey: :D 16:52:12 Phantom_Hoover: i had an awesome dream recently 16:52:18 alise, no reading is possible, as long as you don't try again or actually try to read. I dreamed reading street signs, as well as numbers a few times. 16:52:22 there was some sort of thing similar to a zombie apocalypse but not quite 16:52:24 i'm certain i've read in dreams 16:52:30 it was like being in an action film, you know you can't die, it's just awesome 16:52:35 ais523: I've been looking at too much Python, that's for sure. 16:52:41 alise, I didn't actually read though, just kind of dreamed that I had 16:52:42 also I did LSD twice... not sure why 16:52:49 bad idea 16:52:53 it seemed like a good idea at the time 16:52:56 alise: clocks work in my dreams, so does reading 16:53:04 ais523: (what was "bad idea" to?) 16:53:11 alise: trying LSD 16:53:15 ais523: why? 16:53:24 instead of getting lucid dreams, you get non-lucid real life 16:53:29 it feels strange to see it being 4:01 pm on sunday, then waking up and, 8 hours later, see it being 4:01 pm on sunday again 16:53:43 also, there's an experiment someone did once where they'd present some text on a screen to read, and they'd do pupil tracking, and every time they caught a saccade, they'd replace what the viewer was just looking at with different text. 16:53:45 which is kind-of the worst of both worlds 16:53:45 ais523: I'd say ego death is a bit more than simple non-lucidity... 16:53:50 alise, trying LSD in a dream or? 16:53:54 alise: well, yes 16:53:58 * Phantom_Hoover reads the wiki. 16:54:04 quintopia: that's just horribly evil 16:54:06 and because the eyes can't really detect such subtle changes when saccading, it was really disturbing trying to read it... 16:54:07 quintopia: that seems evil 16:54:09 what happened? 16:54:12 ais523: besides, I'm pretty sure you can't think "hey, this isn't realistic" when you're on LSD 16:54:21 alise: yep 16:54:32 ais523: i don't even know what they were trying to test for. i should look it up again. 16:54:36 I have almost a religious level of horror/abhorrance at things that affect my ability to think straight 16:54:46 ais523: but that doesn't matter because you'd be idiotic to do it without someone who's done it before around. 16:54:47 quintopia: who cares, that's a great experiment anyway 16:54:50 ehh, it's on my list of things to try some day 16:54:53 "it's the .NET framework, most people already have it on their computer" how does someone this stupid write anything that comes near working? 16:54:55 ego death sounds fun 16:54:57 i should try LSD sometime. i need a good babysitter tho 16:55:04 lol babysitter 16:55:13 Phantom_Hoover: hmm, most people with a computer probably /do/ have the .NET framework installed 16:55:19 you've seen the LSD sketching experiment haven't you? 16:55:24 i wanna try that on myself 16:55:24 I'm assuming that most Windows XP users have needed it for something by now 16:55:30 * yorick does not 16:55:31 bbl 16:55:32 ...but not with quite as high a dose 16:55:38 meh, I have Mono installed even though I'm on Linux 16:55:53 due to an occasional need to run .NET programs 16:56:04 quintopia: i'm not sure that was lsd 16:56:08 Wait, that's what Mono does? 16:56:11 alise: def was 16:56:17 quintopia: if it was, it must have been a mild dose, surely 16:56:23 alise: huge dose 16:56:23 Phantom_Hoover: it's a .NET bytecode interpreter, plus libraries 16:56:25 so pretty much 16:56:26 quintopia: i doubt anyone could draw on a regular dose of LSD. 16:56:38 alise: you've clearly not seen the experiment 16:56:42 quintopia: i have 16:56:52 quintopia: but i'm having a hard idea of perceiving someone pick up a pencil and put it on paper 16:57:10 well, they basically had to force him to, and at a certain point even that didn't work 16:58:02 high doses of LSD are interesting, since the active dose is so incredibly, ridiculously small, but the fatal dose is ridiculously high 16:58:15 exactly 16:58:33 i think they gave the guy like 100mg or something like that 16:58:42 I can't imagine how they could possibly do anything more than a regular highish dose, though... 16:58:53 i mean, i'd say that's fairly close to the most anything can do to you :P 16:59:19 anyway in the dream LSD was pretty boring really, everything was just a certain colour and like a day passed in a few minutes and i was back where i started 16:59:28 the non-zombie 'pocalypse was much more fun 17:00:14 i was close. apparently it was 100 g 17:00:14 alise: I assume that if you actually fell asleep while on LSD, the dreams you got (if any) wouldn't be that different from normal dreams anyway 17:00:31 quintopia: only out by a factor of 1000! 17:00:35 that's close in one sense, but not in another 17:00:41 ais523: well, in the first LSD trip, Albert Hofmann fell asleep (after a bad trip) 17:00:51 ais523: nah, it's only 3 orders of magnitude 17:00:54 ais523: and then woke up feeling tingly and joyful 17:00:57 after an uneventful night 17:00:59 1000 sounds like such a big number. 3 is better 17:01:13 -!- tombom has joined. 17:01:21 100 mg of LSD is well below the fatal dose, I think 17:01:24 yes, but orders of magnitude can be so much larger than individual units 17:01:28 (which is comparable to other drugs with active doses in the mgs) 17:01:33 (rather than the ... mugs) 17:02:02 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:02:03 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Drug_danger_and_dependence.png 17:02:06 active vs lethal doses 17:02:10 it's worrying enough that you can be affected by a microgram of anything, if you think about it; humans have a chemical balance so complex it can be upset by even that small an amount of a chemical 17:02:14 doesn't give absolute values, just the ratio 17:02:21 but LSD has the lowest 17:02:30 surprise, surprise, heroin has the highest 17:03:10 [[Typical doses in the 1960s ranged from 200 to 1000 µg while street samples of the 1970s contained 30 to 300 µg. By the 1980s, the amount had reduced to between 100 to 125 µg, lowering more in the 1990s to the 20–80 µg range,[14] and even more in the 2000s.[15] [16]]] 17:03:18 this makes it hard to figure out the fatal dose since it depends on the figures the graph is using :D 17:03:25 ah 17:03:35 "Estimates for the lethal dosage (LD50) of LSD range from between 200 µg/kg to more than 1 mg/kg of human body mass, though most sources report that there are no known human cases of such an overdose. Other sources note one report of a suspected fatal overdose of LSD occurring in November 1975 in Kentucky in which there were indications that ~1/3 of a gram (320 mg or 320,000 µg) had been injected intravenously. (This is a very extraordinary amount, partic 17:03:35 ularly when compared to the average LSD dosage of ~100 µg)." 17:04:31 by comparison, the lethal dose of water is around 8 kg 17:04:42 :-D 17:04:43 and even then, the antidotes are relatively simple and readily available 17:04:58 ais523: are you trying to say 17:05:00 "don't take LSD, take water"? 17:05:02 (pretty much anything that dissolves in water works, as long as it isn't dangerous to eat itself) 17:05:09 alise: I'm just trying to draw a comparison 17:05:12 hey man 17:05:13 :P 17:05:25 what if, like, we're all taking hundreds of ml of a drug every day?? 17:05:32 IN THE WATER MAN 17:05:33 IN THE WATER 17:05:36 meh, I can get drunk on water pretty effectively anyway 17:05:43 and we're all hallucinating and lsd reveals the real stuff... 17:05:44 xD 17:05:46 no man! 17:05:50 tombom: I N C E P T I O N 17:05:51 what if the drug is.... water 17:05:53 T H E M A T R I X 17:06:09 -!- sshc has joined. 17:06:16 So what is this Interpol language, and howcum it's not on the esowiki? 17:06:27 there's an esolang called Interpol? 17:06:34 howcum? simple 17:06:38 there's one with a simular name... 17:06:38 you kind of rub a bit 17:06:45 polol something 17:07:04 ais523: there's a *language* called Interpol, and it *looks* kinda esoteric: http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_ipol.txt 17:07:11 it would be interesting to see someone try 1 mg of LSD (10x the active dose; absolute minimum estimated lethal dose is 200 µg/kg, so you'd have to be something like 5kg for this to kill you) 17:07:28 quintopia: nopol? 17:07:31 hard to google for, tho 17:07:33 that's not a similar name, that's just oklopol 17:07:42 cpressey: well, you know Brian Raiter 17:07:51 and if he codes in it... 17:07:54 oklopol, interpol. . .same difference 17:08:01 quintopia: oklopol is a person 17:08:03 cpressey: i linked that yesterday btw 17:08:05 did you see it? 17:08:11 the last quine is my favourite 17:08:16 alise: yes. that's why it's in my browser. mocking me. 17:08:19 harfharfharfharfharfharfharfharfharfharf! 17:08:49 cpressey: gthompso@nyx.net 17:08:50 ask 17:08:56 or ask brian himself 17:09:00 alise: Brian Raiter works at Google, I doubt all his programming is in esolangs 17:09:15 breadbox [whirlpool] muppetlabs [spot] com 17:09:19 ais523: shaddap :) 17:09:33 alise: I didn't get a reply last time I sent a query there 17:09:37 although I can't remember what it was about 17:10:05 I never got a reply from the author of that WP7 INTERCAL interp either 17:11:11 hmm, according to a Reddit comment, ads on domain-parked pages have a click-through rate of 50-80%, because there's nothing else to click on 17:11:21 -!- pineal_aenimal has joined. 17:11:35 I can believe that the average Internet user doesn't realise that not every page needs to have a link followed from it 17:11:39 i can't believe that either 17:11:40 but it's still scary 17:11:57 [citation needed] 17:12:02 there wasn't one 17:12:12 then they made it up 17:12:35 possibly 17:12:44 quite a few people commenting in the thread were actual former domain parkers 17:13:19 you'd have to pick a good domain to get good results with that tho 17:13:50 yep, a high conversion rate is pointless if people never visit the site in the first place 17:16:00 ais523: Underload optimisation; discuss. 17:16:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:16:29 alise: apart from the S command, you can do quite a bit due to the side-effect-free nature of the language 17:16:41 ais523: the S command is sort of the point :P 17:16:44 given that going below the end of the stack crashes the program, any subprogram can only access finite stack 17:16:56 thus, it can be seen as a function 17:17:27 so Underload optimization works much like Haskell optimization, you just need to deal with the Ses somehow 17:17:36 hi oerjan 17:17:55 hi cpressey 17:18:23 S'es are simple, just treat the whole program as producing a list of output, surely? 17:18:46 oh hm 17:18:49 oerjan: that's effectively making them into a monad, which is one possible solution but one I've never seen used 17:19:13 well yeah 17:19:16 i was actually wondering last night how to make oerjan's kolakoski sequence generator manage to output more than a dozen digits on my C impl of underload 17:19:21 (before it crashes) 17:19:27 yay orange juice! 17:19:43 cpressey: tail recursion 17:19:51 alise: it does do tail recursion 17:20:07 i mean, my impl does. 17:20:13 INSUFFICIENT 17:20:21 INTERMITTENT 17:20:22 tail concatenation helps, too 17:20:26 ais523: Unlambda compilation; disgust. 17:20:29 well i don't recall the bots having a problem with it... 17:21:03 alise: or do you mean, write the underload program tail-recursively? i don't even know how that would be possible 17:21:08 have I actually posted the source to derlo anywhere, yet? 17:21:20 cpressey: tail-recursion in Underload is a ^ just before a ) 17:21:42 e.g. the standard infinite while loop is (:^):^, and any sane interp should be able to run that forever without overflowing stack, etc 17:22:00 well, I should just say "infinite loop", there's nothing /that/ while-loopy about it 17:22:08 it still shouldn't crash on a dozen digits, i doubt my program is _that_ space leaky :D 17:23:24 ais523: (^), the most pointless program ever; discuss 17:23:32 although (^)* might be useful for something 17:23:35 although what i know not 17:23:39 a(^)* is definitely silly, though 17:23:48 it's just a fancy identity 17:24:08 (^) is plausible for use as a data element in some encoding scheme 17:24:20 IIRC one of oerjan's programs used it, although I can't remember the context 17:24:37 arguably, (^) and (!) could be used for true and false 17:24:48 the rule 110 one, probably 17:25:14 true = (~!^); false = (!^), imo 17:25:17 at least useful true and false :P 17:25:32 alise: I normally use either those, or () and (!()) 17:25:42 those are confusing 17:25:43 : and ^ were the simplest way to encode data using just 1 char per bit 17:25:43 wow. i totally cannot think today. 17:25:44 if you append ^ to the second set, you get (^) and (!) 17:25:47 hmm, what's zero and one? 17:25:54 (!()) and () respectively 17:25:59 (^) almost reminds me of the standard Imp. Someone should make a Underload Battle Arena for fighting Underload programs. 17:25:59 there you go then :P 17:26:08 : and a were also possible iirc but more messy 17:26:11 they make nice booleans because "loop n times" is easy in Underload 17:26:17 mm 17:26:18 so an if statement is "loop 0 times" vs. "loop 1 time" 17:26:23 ais523: i don't like how zero's different :< 17:26:30 it's unlike, e.g. the lambda calculus 17:26:34 church numerals 17:27:53 alise: it isn't really: you can construct the numbers as 0 = (()'!_), 1 = (()':_*'!_), 2 = (()':_*':_*'!_), etc 17:27:56 does anyone here like Logo? 17:28:03 they just happen to optimise into much neater forms 17:28:06 ais523: hey, no using underlambda syntax 17:28:07 :P 17:28:30 (that's underlambda; 'x = (x); _ = ~a*^) 17:28:43 nor is underlambda on esowiki 17:28:59 hmm, I'm missing some ~s there 17:29:03 cpressey: it's far from finished 17:29:07 cpressey: vapourware 17:29:07 and I tend not to put partial langs up there 17:29:09 like Feather 17:29:15 alise: less vapourware than Feather 17:29:15 featherware 17:29:21 because at least I have an idea where it's going 17:29:21 except with ais523 you can get close to the vapour and inhale 17:29:30 and for a few lovely minutes, your brain doesn't work at all 17:29:39 no change then 17:29:39 ais523: did you choose the underload command names so that source would naturally be littered with emoticons, or was that just happenstance? 17:29:41 as you try to understand retroactive non-synchronicitic variable term rewriting of the past 17:29:44 besides, aren't all my esolangs vaporware at some point 17:29:52 quintopia: it was clearly designed for (:aSS):aSS 17:29:57 quintopia: I tend to gravitate towards punctuation marks 17:30:02 you can even make an argument that that can be read as 17:30:06 the aSS thing is actually entirely concidental 17:30:07 "push double ass, double ass" 17:30:21 if it were deliberate, it would have been properly capitalisd 17:30:40 (because : is dup) 17:30:57 ais523: any objections to me removing [[Underload#Self-interpreter]]? 17:31:00 it's ridiculous and blatantly false 17:31:09 I don't mind 17:31:18 it's "correct" in a joke-esolang sort of way 17:31:30 ais523: right, but keymaker was serious at the time :) 17:31:30 but pretty much every lang has a self-interp on that basis 17:31:43 Ah, my bad. I honestly didn't think about it, this idea of passing control is obvious now, but quite new to me. I was thinking along the lines that if the data gets run, it's interpreted. :) Anyways, how would one convert the Underload program to Church numerals? (I have no idea about those.) And would some other encoding be ok (probably would)? And what would it be if my Underload-interpreter-in-brainfuck was modified to have the program we want to execute 17:31:43 directly in the memory without the interpreter reading it from user, and that brainfuck program was then converted to Underload with ais523's brainfuck-to-Underload program. Would that suffice? --Keymaker 14:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC) 17:31:59 the problem is that there are several different conceputal ways to think of Underload 17:32:07 and that method is perfectly natual in some, and abhorrent in others 17:32:20 "HTML source code" --you 17:32:21 aargh... 17:32:24 >__> 17:32:24 (S is a wart on the lang, in that it screws some of them up; Underlambda is going to redefine output to fix that, I just haven't decided how yet) 17:32:34 alise: well, it's hardly a binary 17:32:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:32:45 ais523: "HTML source" i would have accepted 17:32:49 "HTML markup" too 17:32:52 and "HTML code"? 17:32:53 so what would the correct way of writing a program that recursively interprets itself in underload (the same way that one that what's his name wrote for C does)? 17:32:54 :-P 17:32:57 ais523: no 17:33:02 ais523: it's markup! 17:33:07 okay so i'm not normally this anal 17:33:11 "HTML source code" just threw me off 17:33:20 is golfscript usable for anything but golfing? 17:33:21 quintopia: you'd have to write an interp for something, then quine into the lang that interp used as input 17:33:24 quintopia: for C? 17:33:28 hmm 17:33:29 i vaguely recall that 17:33:30 html is very code 17:33:31 was it C? 17:33:34 Vorpal: obviously, it permits embedded Ruby 17:33:45 lemme check 17:33:49 but then it sets it on fire 17:33:51 ais523, okay but apart from that, which is kind of cheating. 17:34:00 which reminds me, I want to make a usable application in pure CSS (plus a DOM element to start it off) someday 17:34:02 I think it's doable 17:34:10 even if it's sub-TC, you can still create something useful 17:34:20 ais523, what would it do? 17:34:28 also brb 17:34:31 ais523: well, you have content: and attr() (I think it's spelled like that) 17:34:33 some sort of state machine, I think 17:34:35 onvm 17:34:36 as well as hover and focus 17:34:42 i was thinking of madore's scheme self-interp 17:34:42 I was planning to use mouseovers for input 17:34:43 so you can do some things with it 17:34:46 well anyway 17:34:54 ais523: oh, and the custom-defined list numbering in CSS(is it 3? I think so) 17:34:57 lets you do ridiculous things 17:34:58 quintopia: underload interpreter in underload? 17:35:01 is there a really short way to do that in underload? 17:35:14 quintopia: an underload self-interp is non-trivial 17:35:21 although not that non-trivial 17:35:22 alise: thanks 17:35:22 alise: hmm, not really 17:35:29 ais523: mm, maybe not 17:35:44 you just need a lookup table and a bunch of concatenations 17:36:21 that reminds me, i want to do the meta-circular thing with a rewriting lang someday 17:36:33 but underload is somewhat interesting too 17:36:45 how simple *would* it be? 17:37:02 remind me what meta-circular means? is that the name for the "evaluate string" as flow control idea? 17:37:06 choosing the input encoding looks like the hard bit ;D 17:37:18 you just need a lookup table and a bunch of concatenations 17:37:23 oh i thought it was about css counter stuff 17:37:26 but it's non-trivial, certainly 17:37:27 quintopia: an interpreter for language X, written in language X, basically 17:37:28 trivial is trivial 17:37:30 ^ul (!())((zero)(!^)(one)(!^)(two)(!^)(three)(!^)(four)(!^)(five)(!^)(six)(!^)(seven)(!^)(eight)(!^)(nine)(!^)(ten)())~(!!)~^^S^ 17:37:30 (zero)(!^)(one)(!^)(two)(!^)(three)(!^)(four)(!^)(five)(!^)(six)(!^)(seven)(!^)(eight)(!^)(nine)(!^)(ten)() ...out of stack! 17:37:35 umm, I missed a ^ 17:37:37 cpressey: *wrong* 17:37:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator 17:37:50 that's just a self-interpreter 17:37:57 also, wrote the table backwards 17:38:09 I hate it when useful distinctions are lost due to people misusing terms... 17:38:25 yeah that's ironic *ducks* 17:38:47 oerjan: It's like rain / on your wedding day 17:39:15 alise: i did say "basically" 17:40:04 ^ul (!())(:*:*)(::**)(:*:*:*)(~(()(ten)(!^)(nine)(!^)(eight)(!^)(seven)(!^)(six)(!^)(five)(!^)(four)(!^)(three)(!^)(two)(!^)(one)(!^)(zero))~a*^(!!)~^^( )*S^:^):^ 17:40:04 eight three four zero ...out of stack! 17:40:11 see, lookup table 17:40:41 ais523: proposal: remove () from underlambda 17:40:42 ^ul (::**)(:*)(::*:**)(~(()(ten)(!^)(nine)(!^)(eight)(!^)(seven)(!^)(six)(!^)(five)(!^)(four)(!^)(three)(!^)(two)(!^)(one)(!^)(zero))~a*^(!!)~^^( )*S^:^):^ 17:40:43 five two three ...out of stack! 17:40:44 ' and * make it redundant 17:40:53 alise: () is still useful, though 17:41:02 ais523: ':'!* 17:41:05 (also, you need a as well to make it redundant) 17:41:18 Underlambda is somewhat golfed 17:41:24 and parens are useful for that 17:41:27 hmm 17:41:37 ais523: is there a non-()-using program that pushes () on the stack? 17:41:39 I don't think so, but... 17:41:46 cpressey: so the distinction is that when an interpreter provides direct access to it evaluation methods, one can write an interpreter for that interpreter that really just asks the parent interpreter to do interpretation? 17:41:50 (abcd) -> ':'!*'a*'b*'c*'d* :-D 17:41:54 quintopia: sort of 17:41:59 no, but only for the trivial reason that the first command in any Underload program has to be () 17:42:09 or something containing () 17:42:12 quintopia: it's like writing a scheme interpreter in scheme that just handles lambda and similar control structures, making them into real lambdas, and passes off the actual evaluation to APPLY 17:42:27 in Underload, there's a command to push () onto the stack, it's called 1 17:42:30 i.e. it does name lookup, basic control structures, and things like macros if it does them; but actual (f x y z) is handled by (apply f (list x y z)) 17:42:43 it's a self-interpreter that uses the language's actual interpreter to do most of the work for it, basically 17:42:54 alise: that's a correct sort of interp, though, and often is used to interp one lang in another 17:42:56 yeah that's what i was trying to say 17:43:00 no, but only for the trivial reason that the first command in any Underload program has to be () 17:43:00 erm 17:43:01 i mean 17:43:02 no "()" 17:43:06 not no "(" ")" 17:43:07 ah 17:43:12 not in Underload 17:43:16 i don't get it 17:43:30 in Underlambda, you can do ((x)!) or something like that 17:43:42 because it's only the semantics of a codeblock that matter, not its literal representation 17:43:49 cpressey: what don't you get? 17:44:17 because it's only the semantics of a codeblock that matter, not its literal representation 17:44:18 right 17:44:36 show me a self-interpreter that isn't meta-circular. to me, it's just a matter of degree (how direct is your circularity?) 17:44:53 cpressey: for instance, a Python-in-Python implementation that implements its own object system 17:44:57 Underlambda's S command outputs functions, and its D command inputs them 17:44:58 and does tree-based AST interpretation 17:45:06 ais523: '!a'!* 17:45:08 effective nop 17:45:08 it's interp-defined what format's used to output the functions 17:45:55 anyway, there are any number of subsets of Underlambda that are TC 17:45:59 or any interpreter for B written in A, where A and B are unrelated, which is then interpreted by a A interpreter written in B. 17:46:04 for a while, I even thought about embedding BF-minus-comments in it 17:46:17 that pretty much forces you not to ask the A interpreter for help 17:46:21 but < and > don't fit well with the execution model without requiring a really complex definition of + and - 17:46:44 err, the B interpreter for help 17:46:48 quintopia: I was thinking about that just now; for Scheme, the sticking point seems to be closures in the intermediate language 17:47:10 as in, a self-interp's considered to be a "true" self-interp if it goes via an intermediate representation that doesn't include closures 17:47:31 alise: in your example, the object system isn't directly meta-circular... but since it's still defined, indirectly, in terms of itself, i can't bring myself to call it "not" meta-circular 17:47:41 ais523: so Clojure is out of the question? that seems silly, since Clojure can be compiled to java bytecodes... 17:47:57 cpressey: You know, there is a use for terms that are not precise slicings of the world in two. 17:48:09 In this case, "metacircular" is obviously not precise, but even Lojban has vague adjectives. 17:48:27 quintopia: it's a self-interp either way, but there's sort-of a distinction between "compile then execute", and "interpret without compiling" 17:48:40 the first is often considered cheating, especially if the compile step is very simple 17:48:52 alise: you seem to feel it's precise enough to yell *wrong* at me when I do a first pass explanation 17:48:53 on the other hand, it's not a straight distinction in that there's no cutoff, it's a continuum 17:49:14 cpressey: If I was yelling, I would have used uppercase. And it was more so that quintopia doesn't get confused. 17:49:17 what does "meta-circular" mean anyway? 17:49:24 I haven't been yelling about the definition because I have no idea what it is 17:49:26 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator 17:49:41 i *did* link that definition before, but ofc you didn't see it :) 17:49:47 ugh, clog's being slow 17:50:03 ais523: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator 17:50:09 that filter causes you way more problems than it solves 17:50:11 got it before you posted that 17:50:17 alise: it's solved loads of problems for me 17:50:27 argh, I'm away for three minutes and I come back to several screenfuls 17:50:29 ais523: do you filter them to empty string or to [missing link] ? 17:50:31 anyway, bbl for quite a bit 17:50:32 the problems it causes are problematic, but not that bad 17:50:34 quintopia: to (link) 17:50:40 empty string would be rather confusing 17:50:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: I never meta-circ). 17:50:40 ah 17:50:45 yeah 17:51:02 what problems does it solve? 17:51:02 ais523: also relevant: http://goatse.cx/ 17:51:10 quintopia: he doesn't like links 17:51:14 -!- alise has left (?). 17:51:16 -!- alise has joined. 17:51:16 people pestering me, mostly 17:51:17 whoops 17:51:20 alise: i apologize for spreading confusion. 17:51:27 cpressey: Sacrifice goats! 17:51:37 the vast majority of IRCers assume that if they post a link, everyone will read it 17:51:55 making myself unable to follow them at least gives me a plausible excuse 17:52:05 to say "no I haven't read it because I filter links, and I don't particularly care anyway" 17:52:06 aha! plausible deniability! 17:52:33 well then. 17:53:06 alise: hmm, the wikipedia article seems to consider meta-circular evaluators as not being self-interps 17:53:12 whereas I see them more as a special case 17:53:18 ais523: err, the wikipedia article doesn't say that 17:53:21 and you're obviously right 17:53:27 if i were to do the same i'd have my client go ahead and fetch the link up until it reaches a tag, then filter the link to the title 17:53:33 <ais523> "The difference between self-interpreters and meta-circular interpreters is that the latter restate language features in terms of the features themselves, instead of actually implementing them. (Circular definitions, in other words; hence the name). They depend on their host environment to give the features meaning." 17:53:35 <ais523> oh, it's a direct quote 17:53:49 <quintopia> that way i can know what the link was to, while still being able to deny having received a link 17:53:50 <ais523> sorry, Wikipedia, it's actually Reginald Braithwaite who I disagree with 17:54:05 <ais523> hmm, ingenious 17:54:12 <ais523> but there are some sites I don't even want to send TCP requests too 17:54:14 <ais523> *to 17:54:23 <ais523> the firewall here is somewhat insane 17:54:33 <alise> someone's been lying to the pavement again 17:54:51 <alise> ais523: ah, what raganwald meant there is 17:54:57 <alise> "difference between them and REGULAR self-interps" 17:54:58 <alise> i'm pretty sure 17:55:02 <ais523> hmm, perhaps 17:55:05 <ais523> could just be lack of context 17:55:24 <alise> he's a smart guy, so 17:55:46 <ais523> now I want to write an Underload quine where every string is treated either entirely as data, or entirely as code 17:56:05 <ais523> as in, either S is never run on it, or ^ is never run on it 17:56:16 <quintopia> sounds fun 17:56:47 <ais523> it probably wouldn't fit into one line of IRC, though 17:57:45 <quintopia> ais523: do you have someone that goes through your web access logs seeing which domains you've accessed? 17:58:00 <ais523> quintopia: yes in theory 17:58:10 <quintopia> bastages 18:00:39 -!- aloril has joined. 18:01:25 <ais523> at least the firewall's stopped portscanning me 18:03:27 <ais523> (yes, all my ports are closed to anyone but 127.0.0.1. Why do you care? You're a NAT, it's not like anything would happen even if the ports were open, as I don't have a public IP...) 18:05:09 <quintopia> lamesauce 18:05:16 <alise> lambda x,y:x-1,y 18:05:20 <alise> apparently y is not defined 18:05:22 <alise> stupid scoping rules 18:05:45 <alise> ais523: INTRA-UNIVERSITY ILLEGAL FILESHARING OVER PORT 453 18:06:16 <ais523> alise: I hadn't even thought of communicating with other people on the same subnet 18:06:18 <ais523> if indeed there are any 18:06:43 <ais523> surely they could just firewall it at the router if they cared that much? 18:06:54 <ais523> (as in, insist all traffic went to a different subnet?) 18:07:21 <alise> if k=='h': 18:07:21 <alise> w[Y,X]=46;X-=1;w[Y,X]=64;D(0,0) 18:07:21 <alise> elif k=='l': 18:07:21 <alise> w[Y,X]=46;X+=1;w[Y,X]=64;D(0,0) 18:07:28 <alise> guess what it does! 18:07:45 <ais523> moving the character in a roguelike 18:07:58 <ais523> 64 is @, the characters are typical roguelike movement keys 18:08:11 <ais523> I don't know 46 off by heart, but suspect it's . based on context 18:08:16 <ais523> !c printf("%c",46); 18:08:25 <alise> i like how C is ais523's go-to calculator 18:08:34 <alise> ais523: it is, yes 18:08:36 <alise> guess what D does :P 18:08:40 <ais523> most langs don't convert between integers and characters transparently 18:08:55 <ais523> hmm, D is less obvious, especially as the params are always 0 18:08:59 <ais523> also, EgoBot isnt here 18:09:07 <quintopia> hackego? 18:09:16 <cpressey> D=update display? 18:09:21 <alise> cpressey: yes; what are the arguments? 18:09:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:09:39 <cpressey> offset into screen to start updating at, maybe? 18:09:45 <alise> nope 18:10:01 <cpressey> ok 18:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, is someone going to explain what Underlambda is? 18:10:42 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a language project by me 18:10:43 <alise> cpressey: here's D's definition: 18:10:45 <alise> def D(a,b): 18:10:45 <alise> for B in range(b,b+23): 18:10:45 <alise> for A in range(a,a+80): 18:10:45 <alise> s.addch(B-b,A-a,w.get((B-12,A-40),46)) 18:10:51 <ais523> based around an esolang, also with the same name 18:10:51 <alise> note: b/B is y, a/A is x 18:10:55 <alise> just renamed them to avoid clashes 18:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, where's the esolang kept, if anywhere? 18:11:22 <ais523> the idea is to build an esolang that's easy to compile into other langs, and easy to compile other langs into 18:11:23 <ais523> and my head 18:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So taking Brainfuck's niche as the standard language for proof by isomorphism? 18:13:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nah, most langs are hard to compile /into/ BF 18:13:22 <ais523> the idea is to make it work both ways 18:13:24 <quintopia> goddamit they set off the fire alarm again 18:13:33 <quintopia> motherfuckers 18:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, OK, so even better? 18:13:39 <ais523> to get, eventually, an automatic converter between any two esolangs 18:13:42 * quintopia waits 18:13:46 <ais523> hopelessly inefficient, ofc, but who cares 18:14:09 <alise> yay, my roguelike now moves around properly 18:14:13 <alise> now to do scrolling 18:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Practicality is so boring! 18:14:17 <alise> (it's on an infinite plane) 18:14:22 <alise> (also golfed) 18:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Make it non-Euclidean! 18:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> NEtHack! 18:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I would capitalise the 't', but is there such a thing as non-Euclidean topology? 18:15:13 <alise> interestingly, in this game, pressing a direction key for long enough will cause you to run out of memory 18:15:16 <ais523> hmm, does Python accept thin-spaces for indentation? 18:15:16 <alise> as the sparse array is filled 18:15:20 <alise> ais523: :-D 18:15:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: i think topology might be non-Euclidean by default. 18:15:41 <ais523> it would be great if you could mix all the different space-widths in Unicode 18:15:42 <cpressey> in that, Euclid never touched the stuff 18:15:46 <alise> ais523: do you want to see what i currently have? 18:15:53 <ais523> I'd rather imagine it 18:15:57 <ais523> I might take a look when I'm finished 18:16:03 <ais523> *when it's finished 18:16:06 <alise> ais523: it's 23 lines, FWIW 18:16:11 <ais523> hmm, I have a strange aversion to unreleased projects 18:16:17 <ais523> well, unfinished 18:16:24 <alise> it's finished as far as moving around goes ;) 18:16:25 <ais523> I tend to like to get things done first before an official release 18:16:28 <alise> well apart from scrolling 18:16:38 <ais523> yet, provide copies of the work-in-progress to anyone who asks 18:16:55 <ais523> (the only programs where people frequently have asked are jettyplay, and occasionally AceHack) 18:17:11 <alise> let's see... 18:17:11 <ais523> I tend to incorrectly assume that the rest of the world operates like that, for some reason 18:17:24 <alise> if we're more then, let's say, 15 characters out of the centre 18:17:28 <alise> then scroll one place 18:17:33 <ais523> btw, we were discussing mono earlier? I seem to remember that the mono program I ran, I downloaded the source from codeplex.com 18:17:34 <alise> so X,Y are the centre 18:17:36 <alise> x,y our position 18:17:47 <ais523> and both their web-links and svn links weren't working properly, so in the end I used a recursive wget 18:18:55 <alise> if x<X-15:X-=1 18:18:56 <alise> if x>X+15:X+=1 18:18:56 <alise> if y<Y-15:Y-=1 18:18:56 <alise> if y<Y+15:Y+=1 18:18:59 <alise> note to self: make that faster 18:19:03 <alise> erm 18:19:04 <alise> shorter 18:19:20 <alise> well that isn't working 18:19:21 <alise> hmph 18:19:40 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot are debating commercial breaks on television 18:19:55 <ais523> when I was in Canada (mostly receiving US TV channels), whenever a commercial break came on I changed channel 18:20:06 <ais523> and checked back a few minutes later to see if it was still there 18:20:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Was it? 18:20:16 <ais523> sometimes 18:20:20 <ais523> quite often, actually 18:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC the US channels all have short, frequent breaks. 18:20:30 <ais523> I mean, I do that in the UK too, except I rarely watch television there 18:20:33 <ais523> and tend to get stuck on the BBC 18:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And no BBC, so there's nowhere to run. 18:20:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's long, frequent breaks 18:21:31 <alise> ais523: hmm, more frequent than ours though I think 18:21:48 <alise> e.g. Star Trek, over here, tends to do the abrupt-fade-out-then-in-again that usually signals an advert break, even when there's no adverts 18:21:51 <ais523> yep, typical in the UK is one or two minutes every 10-30 minutes, randomized 18:23:17 <alise> it's random? really? 18:23:19 -!- augur has joined. 18:23:31 <alise> ais523: also, not on Sky it isn't! 18:23:31 <ais523> alise: when I actually cared, which wasn't for very long, I didn't notice an obvious pattern 18:23:35 <ais523> this was on ITV 18:23:42 <alise> more like 3 minutes every 15 minutes 18:23:43 <ais523> I could only get the terrestrial channels then 18:24:04 <ais523> some of the adbreaks were extremely short, like 20 seconds altogether, but those were rather rare 18:24:17 <alise> most likely just sponsors 18:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you actually bother with Sky? 18:24:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: uh, occasionally. 18:25:01 <alise> if x<X-15:X-=1 18:25:01 <alise> if x>X+15:X+=1 18:25:01 <alise> if y<Y-15:Y-=1 18:25:01 <alise> if y<Y+15:Y+=1 18:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Particularly in this age of torrents? 18:25:09 <alise> why doesn't this work... 18:25:20 <alise> somehow decreasing x increases Y! 18:25:22 <alise> what the fuck! 18:25:29 <alise> OH 18:25:30 <alise> wrong sign 18:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't get rid of numbers! 18:25:54 <Phantom_Hoover> A decrement must have an equivalent increment! 18:25:57 <alise> hmm, doesn't quite work with diagonals 18:26:10 * alise puts some random dust into the playfield to make it easier to see 18:26:27 <yorick> alise: it's overflowing! 18:27:13 <alise> oops, now it randomises every time :-D 18:27:21 <alise> and i leave a snail trail 18:27:29 <yorick> much better 18:29:01 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:29:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: have you not seen Forte? 18:29:44 <alise> ais523: I have done more than the Crawl developers could. 18:29:45 <ais523> every command in that which isn't a no-op or simple I/O permanently gets rid of a number from that program 18:29:53 <alise> (Made a larger-than-screen playfield that scrolls non-annoying.) 18:29:56 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte 18:29:58 <alise> How? 18:29:59 <alise> if x<X-15:X-=1 18:29:59 <alise> if x>X+15:X+=1 18:29:59 <alise> if y<Y-5:Y-=1 18:29:59 <alise> if y>Y+5:Y+=1 18:30:02 <alise> That was not difficult! 18:30:16 <ais523> alise: NetHack scrolls like that too, but only if you're using an unusually small terminal 18:30:20 <ais523> (normally there's no need) 18:30:33 <alise> ais523: hmm, what values does it use instead of 15 and 5? I guess you're unlikely to know :P 18:30:45 <ais523> not offhand 18:30:47 <ais523> I'll check 18:30:51 <alise> thanks! :) 18:30:56 <alise> i think 15 and 5 may be a bit too low 18:31:08 <alise> although 5 has the nice property that it scales well from 15 18:31:15 <alise> (15/80)*24 = 4.5 18:31:21 <alise> (the last line is reserved for my babble) 18:31:25 <alise> wait 18:31:27 <alise> the terminal is 80x24 18:31:29 <alise> so it should be *23 18:31:49 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 18:31:51 <alise> hmm, so it should be 4 18:31:52 <alise> but whatever 18:33:05 <ais523> ugh, the code uses some sort of complex dead-reckoning for efficiency, which makes it hard to read 18:33:10 <ais523> seriously, NetHack, you micro-optimised /that/? 18:33:19 <alise> :D 18:35:05 <alise> ais523: do you know the simplest way to get curses to just bloomin' restore the terminal at the end? 18:35:47 <ais523> it moves the screen left and right by 20 at a time if it gets within 5 of the left or right screen edge; vertically, by half the screen height (not counting topl, botl) if it gets within 2 of the screen edge 18:36:00 <ais523> alise: endwin does that automatically, or should 18:36:08 <alise> aha 18:36:09 <alise> echo() 18:36:09 <alise> endwin() 18:36:09 <ais523> as long as your termcap's set up correctly 18:36:16 <alise> oh 18:36:18 <alise> you don't even need echo 18:36:19 <alise> thanks 18:36:46 <ais523> hmm, your code isn't identical to NetHack's code 18:36:53 <ais523> but pretty close 18:36:56 <alise> how surprising :P 18:36:59 <alise> ais523: do you know the values it uses? 18:37:05 <alise> i've done s/15/17/ 18:37:06 <ais523> <ais523> it moves the screen left and right by 20 at a time if it gets within 5 of the left or right screen edge; vertically, by half the screen height (not counting topl, botl) if it gets within 2 of the screen edge 18:37:26 <alise> by 20 at a time? 18:37:26 <alise> urgh 18:37:33 <alise> 1 at a time is the only way to avoid disorientation 18:37:40 <ais523> also, edge cases are handled in the actual code, but not in that description 18:37:53 <ais523> alise: well, Crawl scrolls 1 at a time, if it gets more than 0 from the centre 18:38:52 <ais523> so you're doing it in a mix between the NetHack and Crawl styles, which are close to being opposites 18:39:18 <alise> ais523: mine's the style that doesn't give you a headache ;) 18:39:39 <ais523> strangely, I found that in Enigma, which has level-configurable scrolling, the least confusing tends to be scrolling an entire screen instantly whenever you move within a few pixels of the edge (keeping one line) 18:40:09 <alise> ais523: nethack's is especially awful if you end up holding down one of the keys at the edge 18:40:16 <alise> since your character bounces around 18:40:43 <ais523> alise: well, bear in mind that NetHack levels are only 80 characters wide 18:40:51 <alise> right 18:40:54 <alise> whereas mine is infinite 18:40:55 <ais523> you'd bounce at most three times before you reached the other end of the level, no matter how small your terminal 18:40:58 <alise> and procedurally generated, hopefully 18:41:14 <ais523> it's a roguelike 18:41:18 <alise> (the function to *draw the screen* will randomly assign stuff to unassigned cells in view, I think) 18:41:20 <ais523> they're all procedurally generated, pretty much 18:41:23 <alise> ais523: it's also a golfed roguelike :P 18:41:38 <Gregor> Wots all this then? 18:41:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you could make the Mandelbrot set into a roguelike? 18:41:54 <Gregor> ais523: ....... omg. 18:41:57 <Gregor> ais523: YES 18:41:58 <ais523> place stairs on bits more detailed than the current zoom level 18:42:00 <alise> ais523: wat xD 18:42:06 <ais523> going downstairs zooms in, upstairs zooms out 18:42:07 <alise> <ais523> place stairs on bits more detailed than the current zoom level ;; you mean every bit? 18:42:10 <alise> you can zoom in anywhere 18:42:17 <ais523> alise: I mean, where there's anything interesting 18:42:20 <ais523> rather than solid black or white 18:42:25 <alise> and i think if you use naturals instead of silly colours, you have detail everywhere but the centre 18:42:26 <ais523> that's rather more limited, to the "edge" of the set 18:42:28 <alise> very boring detail, but still 18:42:29 <Gregor> Just s/stairs/some magic/ 18:42:34 <Gregor> That voodoo you do 18:42:52 <alise> ais523: Unfortunately, the Mandelbrot set is a bit slow to compute. 18:43:15 <ais523> I remember writing my own Mandelbrot program 18:43:22 <alise> heh, my program crashes with no message if you resize the terminal and do anything 18:43:29 <ais523> where you could zoom right in until you started hitting distortions due to floating point rounding 18:43:32 <alise> it just refuses to run with no message if your terminal is the wrong size 18:43:38 <alise> wait, no 18:43:40 <alise> too big works 18:43:41 <alise> too small doesn't 18:43:59 <ais523> the interesting thing is, the rounding errors created little sets of their own which looked like distorted Mandelbrot sets 18:44:06 <alise> ais523: AWESOME 18:44:09 <alise> were they fractal? 18:44:20 <ais523> yes, although not as detailed as the set itself 18:44:25 <ais523> eventually you ended up dividing by zero 18:45:06 <alise> aww 18:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> < pikhq> Microsoft Word: the worst program to design web pages in, and this *includes* Malbolge. ← you know how much I hated my school's computing course? 18:46:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah. 18:48:07 <ais523> I still maintain that MS Publisher is an /even worse/ program for designing web pages 18:49:04 <ais523> the markup is even less semantic than Word's (tables everywhere, even for simple text), the page is normally forced to a width different from that of your actual screen (Word doesn't do /that/), and it has a habit of randomly replacing text with images because it can't figure out how to render it as HTML 18:50:07 <alise> woot, cursor positioning works 18:50:41 <alise> 30 lines now 18:52:00 <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? 18:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, language? 18:52:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I heard the name once or twice, but I have never seen it 18:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. 18:52:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Python :/ 18:52:17 <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer 18:52:20 <alise> Vorpal: "horrible" 18:52:36 <Vorpal> alise, okay but what role is it intended to fill? 18:52:39 <Vorpal> that is all I'm asking 18:52:42 <alise> `addquote <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible" 18:52:42 <ais523> basically, you know when you open up a PDF in the GIMP or OpenOffice Draw or something like that? 18:52:51 <Vorpal> ais523, um, no? 18:52:59 <ais523> you get a bunch of maybe editable text, some images, all at exact locations on the page 18:53:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I opened pdf in inkscape, to edit some vector graphics 18:53:13 <ais523> inkscape will do fine as well 18:53:23 <Vorpal> hm okay 18:53:34 <ais523> now, you can open up printed documents like that, but it isn't too useful for actually understanding the document, agreed? 18:53:36 <alise> Vorpal: MS Publisher is a bunch of little Word documents arranged in absolutely-positioned boxes 18:53:39 <alise> with absolute sizes 18:53:44 <ais523> as in, you can copy-paste bits of text, but not much else 18:53:50 <ais523> MS Publisher is that in reverse 18:53:52 <HackEgo> 236|<Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible" 18:53:58 <ais523> as in, actually constructing printed documents via this method 18:55:02 <ais523> (fun fact: I actually had a useful printed document I made this way in Publisher ages ago, but it was too hard to transfer from one laptop to another, and almost impossible to edit in Linux; nothing reads .pub files, and the .ps files it outputs are absolute abominations) 18:55:07 <Vorpal> ais523, um what? Opening up pdfs can be useful I found it useful to open up that thing in there, the vector graphics had too thin lines, so when included in a latex document (as "Figure 1: Diagram from simulation showing current over time" or something like that) the lines were invisible. 18:55:11 <ais523> (so I recreated it in Excel, which was actually easier despite it being a text document) 18:55:11 <Vorpal> useful: 18:55:13 <Vorpal> I meant 18:55:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, that's an insane way to /create/ a PDF 18:55:47 <Vorpal> ais523, the simulation program could only print the result iirc, not save it as an image 18:55:48 <alise> ais523: i *think* your method of explaining has a few too many steps of brainpower required to interpret. 18:55:53 <alise> try using words of two syllables or less 18:56:09 <ais523> alise: were you forced to use Publisher at school? 18:56:11 <Vorpal> ais523, yes indeed insane way to create pdfs though 18:56:19 <ais523> I think I was, but can't remember, I suspect my brain has erased memories of it 18:56:24 <alise> ais523: yeah. i'm talking about for Vorpal though 18:57:07 <ais523> Vorpal: Adobe Reader always shows lines at least a pixel thick (maybe even at least 2 pixels), even if they're thinner 18:57:15 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, can't you edit the text directly in publisher? 18:57:17 <ais523> I know, because I made a PDF with zero-width lines by mistake 18:57:23 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, just as you can in an opened PDF 18:57:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, my old school used it *incessantly*. 18:57:37 <ais523> it looked fine in Reader, but broken in Sumatra 18:57:38 <alise> "My old school used Publisher incestuously!" 18:57:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I'm not sure what caused it. I was using evince to view it, and it had to be scaled to fit into the latex figure 18:57:54 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I couldn't see the lines, and that trick worked perfectly 18:58:02 <alise> i like how Vorpal's just gone on to ignoring ais523's lines and relaying his anecdote instead 18:58:12 <Vorpal> alise, no I didn't. 18:58:17 <Vorpal> alise, I did both at once 18:58:25 <Vorpal> alise, maybe you failed to keep up? 18:58:33 <ais523> alise: I'm semi-convinced that Vorpal permanently has his scrollbar a few lines from the bottom of the screen 18:58:39 <ais523> he seems to only say things said around 15-20 lines ago 18:58:40 <Vorpal> ais523, no 18:58:42 <alise> ais523: or his brain just works *that* slowly 18:58:52 <Vorpal> ais523, s/say/see/ ? 18:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal smells funny. 18:59:20 <ais523> s/say/reply to/ 18:59:25 * Phantom_Hoover times response 18:59:27 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I did get a bit lagged when writing that long line about inkscape, and I didn't bother to read the rest until I finished that line 19:00:21 <quintopia> what annoys me is people that fill up the screen with related lines they could have combined in a single message 19:00:34 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think my theory's correct 19:00:36 <quintopia> i'd rather read a few long lines than a lot of short ones 19:00:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed 19:00:38 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, I've got half a mind to extend Quod Libet to handle video. 19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, it's a conversational format. 19:00:41 <ais523> assuming that there wasn't a response yet, but will be soon 19:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Get used to it. 19:01:01 <Vorpal> ais523, response to what? 19:01:06 <alise> <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed <-- *you* do it all the time 19:01:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover's message 19:01:14 <ais523> it probably hasn't scrolled onto your screen yet 19:01:17 <alise> :-D 19:01:22 <Vorpal> ais523, oh that, I ignored it 19:01:22 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: well, i don't complain about it do I? I just sit silently and be annoyed. 19:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> He sits in range at the short line lengths! 19:01:37 <quintopia> I'm making this one exception to make my peeve known and shall not mention it again 19:01:42 <alise> ais523: hmm, my roguelike actually uses the characters to determine what objects are 19:01:44 <alise> how robust! 19:01:47 <ais523> alise: I can't sensibly claim victory in this argument because my own argument was self-contradictory 19:01:49 <ais523> but it's still hilarious 19:01:49 <pikhq> Or at the very least write a video player that actually uses MKV metadata. 19:01:51 <alise> quintopia: people don't think of things all at once 19:01:55 <alise> also, it speeds up conversation 19:01:56 <Vorpal> alise, ooh, are you coding one? 19:01:58 <Vorpal> nice 19:02:04 <alise> Vorpal: yes, it's golfed 19:02:08 <alise> and insane 19:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, MY GOD, WHY AREN'T YOU EXACTLY FOLLOWING THE CONVERSATION 19:02:16 <alise> and played on an infinite plane filled with silly enemies and silly gold 19:02:18 <Vorpal> alise, cool, how extensive? 19:02:20 <Vorpal> ah 19:02:22 <alise> Vorpal: Umm... infinite 19:02:23 <alise> :P 19:02:30 <quintopia> alise: speeding up conversation is exactly the part about it that annoys me. People should just be smart enough to have large gestalts 19:02:35 <alise> 32 lines atm 19:02:37 <Vorpal> alise, can you use the money for anything? Like shops? 19:02:41 <alise> quintopia: dude, this is IRC 19:02:46 <Vorpal> or would that take too much space? 19:02:54 <alise> Vorpal: maybe. 19:02:57 <alise> it would be pretty boring if not 19:03:05 <alise> i'm not aiming for any absolute limit, just trimming down code wherever possible 19:03:07 <Vorpal> alise, and hm, is there any specific goal or does it just go on until you die? 19:03:08 <ais523> quintopia: what does "gestalt" mean in that context? 19:03:28 <Vorpal> alise, if the latter, the term "arcade rougelike" comes to my mind 19:03:33 <Vorpal> which seems rather silly 19:03:33 <alise> Vorpal: probably the latter 19:03:37 <alise> a victory condition would be too hard 19:03:39 <quintopia> ais523: the series of connective ideas from one thought to another 19:03:43 <alise> and require non-randomness of some sort 19:03:45 <Vorpal> alise, an arcadelike rougelike perhaps! 19:03:53 <alise> Vorpal: maybe after you get enough gold, you can go to a special boss level 19:03:59 <Vorpal> hm 19:04:43 <Vorpal> alise, not just teleporting straight away IMO. Would be better to spawn a teleporter or some stairs or something next to the player 19:04:51 * alise makes a ? tile which actually *is* undetermined right up until you hit it 19:04:54 <alise> the quantum tile 19:04:58 <Vorpal> hah 19:05:00 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, there'd be like booths every now and then 19:05:03 <alise> with a quite low probability 19:05:05 <alise> that you'd have to go to 19:05:17 <alise> Vorpal: you know payphone booths? 19:05:24 <Vorpal> yes 19:05:28 <Vorpal> rather rare these days 19:05:30 <quintopia> they still have those 19:05:33 <alise> Vorpal: it's a pay-TARDIS 19:05:34 <quintopia> i've seen them 19:05:37 <alise> they're common over here 19:05:45 <alise> Vorpal: yes: the portal to the boss is a pay-TARDIS 19:05:48 <alise> I can think of no better solution 19:05:49 <Vorpal> I haven't seen one for... 5 years or such? 19:05:54 <Vorpal> alise, hm 19:06:03 <alise> open booth, bigger on the inside, insert coins :P 19:06:13 <alise> also has phone and internet 19:06:20 <Vorpal> alise, any leveling system? 19:06:31 <alise> Vorpal: maybe. 19:06:42 <alise> How to weight probability: in your random selection, have more copies of one tile! 19:06:48 <Vorpal> alise, I feel it wouldn't be much of a rougelike without leveling and equipments and such 19:07:03 <alise> T=' $$$$$%%%!' 19:07:17 <alise> yay, it crashes 19:07:18 <Vorpal> alise, that is a reasonable way to do it yes 19:07:22 <alise> endwin() unfortunately erases the error message :P 19:07:34 <Vorpal> as long as you don't have something with like 1/1000th of the probability of the another thing 19:07:48 <alise> Vorpal: thankfully, i am far too lazy to have that 19:07:58 <alise> also, nobody would find it, the gameworld is too boring to explore _that_ long 19:08:09 <Vorpal> true 19:08:16 <Vorpal> you still need those booth to be uncommon 19:08:41 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, in my test version i have some code i didn't change when the floor tile became space, not ., and it leaves a trail of .s behind you when you walk 19:08:43 <Vorpal> alise, as for crashing, hm... it managed to run endwin() after it crashed? 19:08:44 <alise> i think i might make that an item 19:09:00 <Vorpal> alise, oh like "red yarn" or something? 19:09:01 <alise> World's Largest Ball of Twine 19:09:03 <alise> i was thinking 19:09:09 <Vorpal> heh 19:09:36 <Vorpal> alise, a bit annoying if you don't move in a mostly straight or curving line 19:09:46 <alise> Vorpal: not really, it just helps you find where you went 19:09:52 <Vorpal> ah 19:09:54 <alise> which is useful if you're looking for that booth you saw seven screens ago 19:10:10 <Vorpal> alise, not if you criss crossed your path a lot before maybe hm 19:10:25 <alise> well, can't have everything. 19:10:35 <Vorpal> alise, you plan to use fixed screens? Not centering on the player all the time? 19:11:05 <alise> Vorpal: 19:11:05 <alise> if x<X-17:X-=1 19:11:06 <alise> if x>X+17:X+=1 19:11:06 <alise> if y<Y-5:Y-=1 19:11:06 <alise> if y>Y+5:Y+=1 19:11:13 <alise> you can move around your centre area, but then it scrolls outside it 19:11:14 <Vorpal> ah, jumping "window" 19:11:23 <alise> so it scrolls around just fine, but doesn't give you a headache (I'm looking at you, Crawl) 19:11:23 <Vorpal> works I guess 19:11:29 <Vorpal> hah 19:11:45 <Vorpal> alise, I find "always-centered-on-player" isn't too bad 19:11:53 <alise> i do, so nyah 19:11:58 <Vorpal> mhm 19:11:59 <alise> remove the +n and -n if you want that :P 19:12:09 <Vorpal> alise, as long as you can see what you are moving to wards 19:12:16 <Vorpal> towards* 19:12:29 <alise> yes 19:12:34 <alise> the whole field is visible at all times 19:12:40 <Vorpal> alise, which language? 19:12:48 <alise> because, unlike NetHack, there is light, and you are not hideously short-sighted 19:12:50 <alise> Vorpal: python. meh. 19:12:56 <Vorpal> ah 19:13:11 <Vorpal> alise, that explains those "not very golf-y newlines" at least 19:13:32 <alise> len(';') == len('\n') 19:13:44 <alise> the indentation has an effect, but i can't avoid that 19:13:50 <alise> (at the start) 19:13:51 <Vorpal> yeah 19:13:52 <alise> because it's an if 19:13:54 <alise> so a block structure 19:13:58 <alise> so i can't just do ; and more of them 19:14:05 <alise> first line of that function: 19:14:07 <alise> global x,y,X,Y;w[y,x]=46;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64 19:14:12 <Vorpal> alise, um you can, but not sure it helps that much. Remember that irc bot in python with just lambda? 19:14:22 <Vorpal> might take more space 19:14:24 <Vorpal> not sure 19:15:13 <Vorpal> alise, w[y,x]=46 ? 19:15:20 <alise> Vorpal: the . 19:15:25 <alise> to move away from there 19:15:25 <Vorpal> ah 19:15:26 <alise> w is the grid 19:15:30 <alise> (world) 19:15:40 <alise> T=' $$$$$%%%!' ;; I can't actually use this, it has to be charcodes, so: 19:15:41 <alise> T=[32]*10+[36]*5+[37]*3+[33] 19:15:42 <alise> >:D 19:15:57 <Vorpal> "wut" 19:16:01 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py 19:16:01 <alise> 633 vagrant.py 19:16:02 <alise> hell yeah 19:16:11 <alise> Vorpal: [x]*n = [x,x,x,x...] n of them 19:16:15 <Vorpal> aha 19:16:18 <alise> [...]+[...] = [...,...] 19:16:30 <Vorpal> what is ! 19:17:06 <Vorpal> alise, also I assume the player is @ in the best of traditions? What about giving it a completely useless pet. Wait I'm detecting feature creep. 19:17:17 <alise> yeah no :P 19:17:29 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, those weightings are a little off. 19:17:37 <alise> BEHOLD: 19:17:45 <alise> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/JTySy.png 19:17:47 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, nethack pets... just die a lot. When playing val I find it just gets in the way. 19:17:53 <Vorpal> for wiz it makes sense but... 19:17:57 <alise> they are very useful in sokoban. 19:18:04 <alise> at the end 19:18:08 <alise> (note: i have done that exactly once) 19:18:10 <alise> i had like four pets 19:18:13 <alise> all gained in sokoban 19:18:16 <Vorpal> alise, for curse testing? 19:18:18 <alise> Vorpal: no 19:18:20 <alise> the room at the end 19:18:25 <Vorpal> alise, yes? 19:18:25 <alise> i just let my four pets fight them all 19:18:27 <alise> didn't get a scratch 19:18:30 <alise> Vorpal: no, the monsters inside 19:18:32 <Vorpal> aren't the monsters all asleep 19:18:34 <Vorpal> inside 19:18:41 <Vorpal> or didn't you have stealth? 19:18:45 <alise> i didn't. 19:18:48 <Vorpal> ah 19:18:53 <alise> it's the harder version of the level, btw 19:19:06 <alise> "oReflection one 19:19:21 <alise> Vorpal: but a monster got spawned on the Elbereth 19:19:23 <Vorpal> alise, pets near the end of game can be useful. I mean, tame archeon? Or tame ki-rin (probably only reasonable for knights) 19:19:27 <alise> and a werecreature stole it, I think 19:19:31 <alise> it certainly wasn't there 19:19:50 <Vorpal> hm 19:19:57 <alise> lol even changing the space weighting to 100 doesn't work 19:20:05 <alise> 1000 is better 19:20:23 <Vorpal> alise, lucky you didn't do the expanded array thing then 19:20:36 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36]*5+[37]*3+[33] 19:20:37 <alise> >:) 19:20:56 <alise> len(T) = 1009 19:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a way in Coq of bundling theorems together given some axioms? 19:21:07 <Vorpal> what did you say that the ! was? 19:21:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes 19:21:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: modules, "Parameter" 19:21:22 <alise> or was it sections? I forget 19:21:24 <alise> Vorpal: I didn't -- potion. 19:21:27 <Vorpal> ah 19:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you have some object Group which gives lots of goodies when passed the group, composition and axioms. 19:21:36 <alise> just HP potion :P 19:21:39 <Vorpal> alise, and $ is gold I presume... % is food? 19:21:44 <alise> yes 19:21:58 <alise> the hp potion will most likely just incr an internal hp potion counter by something random 19:22:05 <Vorpal> alise, what weapons will be available? 19:22:13 <alise> and then quaffing a potion will heal min(sum, 15) or whatever 19:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sections would seem to do it, but I don't know how they actually work. 19:22:20 <alise> Vorpal: your fists 19:22:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see manual ;) 19:22:25 <Vorpal> alise, no sword? 19:22:46 <alise> Vorpal: you could also think of it as a sword 19:22:51 <Vorpal> not really a rougelike without the equipment system 19:22:59 * Phantom_Hoover is starting to lose track of the BBC pop scientists 19:23:00 <Vorpal> that and levels 19:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I'm not exactly an avid follower. 19:23:22 <alise> Vorpal: dude, it's close enough! 19:25:24 <alise> Vorpal: i don't even have walls 19:25:28 <alise> although i might add them. 19:26:27 <Vorpal> hm 19:26:40 <Vorpal> alise, need them for boss and booth at least 19:26:46 <Vorpal> walls that is 19:26:55 <alise> the booth will actually just be a single character. 19:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, yes but larger on the inside you said? 19:27:09 <alise> that's a TARDIS joke. 19:27:12 <Vorpal> yes 19:27:17 <alise> the effect of it being a pay-teleport will be conveyed entirely through one line of message :P 19:27:20 <Vorpal> but I thought that you would show it on screen 19:27:21 <Vorpal> oh well 19:27:25 <alise> yes, it will 19:27:35 <Vorpal> alise, randomly placing walls would be silly, because sooner or later you would then run into a barrier you couldn't pass. 19:27:47 <alise> "You insert your gold into the slot. ... The door opens! --More--" 19:27:56 <alise> "Wow -- it's bigger on the inside! You see a big, shiny button. --More--" 19:27:57 <Vorpal> given perfect randomness and so on 19:28:02 <alise> "You press the button... --More--" 19:28:12 <alise> "Suddenly, you find yourself in a barren desert, with this evil guy." 19:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's still Euclidean. I disapprove. 19:28:24 <alise> Vorpal: so go in another direction :P 19:28:45 <alise> Vorpal: also, "technically", you could end up surrounded entirely by monsters 19:28:47 <Vorpal> alise, well sooner or later you will run into a wall that surrounds you 19:28:51 <alise> or there could never be a booth generated, ever 19:28:54 <alise> Vorpal: no, you won't 19:28:58 <alise> that's not even *close* to remotely probable 19:29:05 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can embed the hyperbolic plain into a terminal sensibly-ish. 19:29:05 <Vorpal> not probably at all indeed 19:29:17 <Vorpal> but sooner or later it will happen, given an infinite plane 19:29:23 <Vorpal> unless I'm completely wrong 19:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it would take ages, I assume. 19:29:45 <Vorpal> and perfect randomness of course 19:29:46 <alise> the probability approaches 1. 19:29:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes it would 19:29:56 <alise> however, you do not have time to play that long 19:30:02 <Vorpal> alise, indeed 19:30:02 <alise> given, say, the predicted age of the universe. 19:30:11 <Vorpal> I never claimed it was likely 19:30:23 <Vorpal> alise, getting surrounded by walls at the start is more probable 19:30:35 <Vorpal> I mean, that is just 8 tiles 19:30:38 <Vorpal> still not likely 19:30:42 <Vorpal> but *more* likely 19:30:42 <alise> that's still hideously improbable :P 19:30:45 <alise> considering the low probability of walls 19:30:49 <Vorpal> than running into it at some distance 19:31:04 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, getting two wall segments next to each other would be low 19:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, approximate wall probability? 19:31:10 <Vorpal> unless you try to deal with that 19:31:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "small" 19:31:27 <Vorpal> alise, oh also: with walls you need LOS calculations 19:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OOM? 19:31:33 <alise> i will likely generate them separately or not at all 19:31:36 <alise> Vorpal: er? why? 19:31:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ? 19:31:48 <Vorpal> alise, glass walls? 19:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Order of magnitude? 19:31:59 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36]*5+[37]*3+[35]*3+[33] 19:32:03 <alise> except more likely than that, probably 19:32:10 <alise> Vorpal: yes. 19:32:14 <alise> Vorpal: or you have x-ray vision 19:32:15 <alise> pick one 19:32:24 <Vorpal> hah 19:33:03 <Vorpal> alise, I prefer the dungeon to be filled with strange cubes made of breakproof glass :P 19:35:00 <cpressey> "Note that if the attribute is found through the normal mechanism, __getattr__() is not called." <-- I love how this leaves what "the normal mechanism" is, up to the imagination. 19:35:26 * cpressey pulls a normal mechanism out of his pocket 19:35:32 * alise decides to have a dividing line before the status line 19:35:34 <alise> otherwise it's too confusing 19:36:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, I detect python naming there 19:36:30 <Vorpal> it looks ugly 19:36:38 <Vorpal> __slots__, __init__ and so on 19:37:12 -!- coppro has joined. 19:37:12 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 19:37:12 -!- coppro has joined. 19:37:40 <alise> hi coppro 19:38:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:39:17 <Gregor> HI POOPPY 19:41:59 <cpressey> Vorpal: what else would I be carping about? 19:42:13 <alise> Vorpal: does banging into a wall in nethack affect the turns? 19:42:15 <alise> it doesn't, does it 19:42:58 <Vorpal> alise, err? 19:43:03 <alise> i mean 19:43:05 <alise> @# 19:43:05 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ v 19:43:05 <alise> l 19:43:08 <Vorpal> alise, you mean, if you advance a turn if you try to walk into a wall? 19:43:10 <alise> right 19:43:12 <ais523> alise: it erodes engravings, but has no other effect 19:43:16 <ais523> the erosion on engravings is probably a bug 19:43:20 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think I ever tried XD 19:43:24 <Vorpal> ais523, heh 19:43:29 <ais523> but is exploited to great effect by people reverse-engineering the RNG 19:43:40 <ais523> as it advances the RNG seed 19:44:55 <Vorpal> listened to an interview on radio with a professor in discrete math. Quite unusual. 19:45:50 <Vorpal> ais523, err, how could you know the seed 19:46:02 <ais523> Vorpal: well, it's seeded with the current date and time, right? 19:46:08 <Vorpal> hm 19:46:09 <alise> Vorpal: I have no message line, woo 19:46:17 <ais523> besides, seeds follow a pattern, set off enough random events and you can figure out where in the pattern you are 19:46:27 <Vorpal> hm 19:46:33 <ais523> someone made a bunch of rainbow tables, they had to change the RNG to reseed from /dev/random in order to block that on NAO 19:46:41 <Vorpal> ais523, is it time() or gettimeofday() ? 19:46:49 <Vorpal> I mean, the former you couldn't probably manage to figure out 19:47:02 <Vorpal> the latter has way too high res for you to figure out when it ran without a debugger 19:47:14 <ais523> Vorpal: the former, and you can get it within a few seconds pretty easily 19:47:28 <Vorpal> indeed 19:47:31 <ais523> and within a second allowing for network lag and clock skew, which you can manage by seeing what happened with your failed attempts 19:48:05 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway how easy would it be to figure out the seed if it started off from /dev/random? I mean, you could probably still figure it out with a table 19:48:12 <Vorpal> looking up start sequences 19:48:14 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, it was rainbow-tabled 19:48:29 <Vorpal> oh *re*seed 19:48:32 <ais523> so on NAO, it reseeds from /dev/random every now and then, paxed's keeping the exact interval secret 19:48:32 <Vorpal> I missed the "re" 19:48:49 <ais523> on /dev/null, it uses a cryptographically secure RNG seeded from /dev/random 19:48:54 <Vorpal> hah 19:49:14 <ais523> there's even a bunch of tables for doing AES quickly 19:49:27 <Vorpal> hm? 19:49:44 <Vorpal> ais523, /dev/random is a bit iffy though, compared to /dev/urandom. It would get stuck quickly quite easily if many people start games at the same time 19:49:55 <cpressey> rainbow tables! man, i love that game 19:49:59 <ais523> agreed, probably /dev/urandom 19:50:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, what? 19:50:09 <ais523> apparently using /dev/urandom directly was too slow 19:50:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: you know. rainbow tables! 19:50:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, I know what they are. But "game"? 19:50:31 <ais523> Vorpal: NetHack? 19:50:35 <cpressey> yes! the best! 19:50:37 <Vorpal> ah 19:50:43 <cpressey> better than musical chairs even! 19:50:46 <Vorpal> I thought cpressey meant a game called "rainbow tables" 19:50:51 <Vorpal> that just confused me 19:50:57 <alise> Okayyy, my M function is fucked up. 19:51:06 <Vorpal> alise, what does M do? 19:51:11 <alise> moves 19:51:13 <alise> and updates everything :P 19:51:15 <Vorpal> ah 19:58:07 <alise> def Q(x):s.move(23,0);s.insertln();s.addstr(23,0,x);s.getkey() 19:58:12 <pikhq> alise: Why does everything suck? 19:58:17 <alise> pikhq: Because. 19:59:09 <cpressey> class object: def __suck__(self): return True 20:04:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:04:05 <alise> ais523: L+=int(not randint(0,3)and randint(5,10)) 20:04:07 <alise> MWAHAHAHA 20:04:19 <ais523> is that a bitwise and? 20:04:27 <ais523> (and likewise not) 20:04:28 <alise> ais523: nope 20:04:33 <ais523> C logical? 20:04:37 <alise> yep 20:04:43 <ais523> oh, Python logical 20:04:48 <alise> er, right 20:04:52 <ais523> as in, it returns the right argument only if the left is 0 20:04:57 <alise> *False 20:05:00 <alise> or 0 20:05:02 <alise> or [] 20:05:02 <alise> or '' 20:05:03 <alise> etc. 20:05:03 <alise> and int(True)=1, int(False)=0 20:05:05 <ais523> in that case I don't get the not 20:05:13 <alise> ais523: i'll elaborate on the logic: 20:05:21 <alise> "1/3 chance: increase HP by random in range 5 to 10" 20:06:11 <ais523> oh, and most of the time nothing happens 20:06:16 <ais523> is that 1/3 or 1/4? 20:07:11 <alise> er, 1/4 20:07:13 <alise> but it should be 13 20:07:14 <alise> *1/3 20:09:19 <alise> ais523: "H:-46" 20:09:21 <alise> that's some hunger 20:11:04 <alise> WTFFF 20:11:10 <alise> ais523: hunger increases properly unless i hold down for a while 20:11:19 <alise> in which case it stops increasing, then goes to something random when i move in a different direction 20:11:20 <alise> WHAT 20:11:25 <ais523> buffer overflow? 20:11:29 <alise> nope 20:12:47 <alise> Vorpal: want to see the WIP version? 20:12:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: everyone: you too 20:13:36 <alise> ais523: HOW could hunger possibly go down like that?! 20:14:00 <ais523> I take it you're not mixing longjmp and autos, either 20:14:14 <ais523> in which case, the random number is probably significant, you should figure out what it's referring to 20:14:16 <alise> ais523: in Python? 20:14:21 <alise> also, it's not random 20:14:23 <alise> it actually decreases 20:14:24 <alise> somehow 20:14:36 <ais523> have you used the wrong variable name somewhere? 20:14:39 <alise> now it's mysteriously gained another digit 20:14:40 <alise> ais523: nope 20:14:47 <alise> s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s H:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,H,L,P));s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40) 20:14:53 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:14:56 <alise> G is Gold 20:15:01 <alise> N is turNs 20:15:03 <alise> H is Hunger 20:15:05 <alise> L is Life 20:15:07 <alise> P is Potion 20:15:47 <alise> and no, there is nowhere else I change these values... 20:15:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:16:03 <alise> hmm 20:16:08 <alise> that 8xx thing behaves like 1xx 20:16:14 <alise> because 900 made me die 20:16:15 <alise> how strange 20:16:47 <pikhq> That's really annoying. Really really annoying. All the rips of Monty Python's Flying Circus out there are from the NTSC DVDs. 20:18:00 * alise decides to make hunger actually be satiation 20:18:30 <pikhq> WHY WOULD I WANT NTSC VERSIONS OF A PAL BROADCAST? 20:20:10 <alise> ais523: I swear, this is *utterly* inscrutable to me. 20:20:15 <alise> pikhq: Wanna debug my golfed Roguelike?!?!?!?!?! 20:20:23 <pikhq> Just... GOD. 20:22:24 <pikhq> But, I can find from-PAL rips of the *movies*. 20:22:34 <pikhq> Y'know, the ones that are 24 fps. 20:22:35 <alise> pikhq: DEBG 20:22:56 <pikhq> (and that I could de-telecine from the NTSC source) 20:24:00 <pikhq> Why do I have to be pickier than everyone who does encodes for torrents? 20:24:02 <alise> I swear, it's like key repeat does nothing to this. 20:25:07 <pikhq> I may have to purchase the series from amazon.co.uk just to not be irritated. 20:25:38 <cpressey> farnsmetchl 20:26:07 <ais523> wait... you torrent TV programs, but buy them if the torrents are in the wrong format? 20:26:29 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out a code of laziness/ethics/piracy that would cause that to be your typicla behaviour 20:26:31 <ais523> *typical 20:27:05 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, I torrent them, but then get irritated at the low quality of the torrents, and I am now being irritated. 20:27:06 <alise> ais523: "Piracy is not wrong, and I am a perfectionist." 20:27:15 <pikhq> Also, what alise said. 20:27:15 <alise> This is ... pretty much also my position. 20:27:24 <ais523> hmm, perhaps 20:27:47 <pikhq> Well, in *this* case, I made the DVD rips from roommate's box set, and am now being irritated that it wasn't in PAL. 20:28:58 <pikhq> Also: seriously, if I had the hard drive space to make it practical, I'd just be storing remuxes of the DVD. 20:30:05 <pikhq> As it is, 1.2 Mbps h264 & source audio works. 20:32:01 <alise> pikhq: Please figure out why Python is ignoring physics. 20:32:14 <cpressey> pikhq: btw, how do you pronounce your nick? because i tried last night and what came out sounded really awful. 20:32:54 <pikhq> cpressey: Peek aitch kyuu 20:32:54 <ais523> I mentally pronounce it as in pik HQ 20:32:55 <cpressey> in case you care, i found your hs bf compiler i had saved to my flash drive, and i said to myself, "oh yeah that's pikhq's" 20:33:03 <olsner> I usually just stop reading after "pik" 20:33:06 <pikhq> alise: Eff you 20:33:40 <olsner> alise: probably because guido doesn't understand it? 20:33:43 <cpressey> pikhq: oh! is it... supposed to sound similar to "Pikachu"? i'm surprised i never noticed 20:33:51 <pikhq> cpressey: Yes. 20:34:01 <pikhq> cpressey: I was 8 and fond of Pokémon. 20:34:17 <alise> I pronounce it "pikhq" 20:34:22 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: want to see the WIP version? <-- sure 20:34:24 <alise> Let me tell you, pronouncing "khq" is a BITCH. 20:34:35 <pikhq> alise: I demand some IPA. 20:35:02 <alise> "pi" as the start of pikachu; ktch-kyu but don't pronounce the u 20:35:18 <olsner> Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Internal data flow error. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Internal data flow error. 20:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: As soon as I get quaffing working :P 20:35:26 <alise> Vorpal: No max HP hooray 20:35:29 <alise> I should add that 20:36:29 <olsner> grr, music players on linux worked much better before gstreamer 20:36:36 <pikhq> I also need to go through my anime collection and get rid of all the hardsub'd stuff. 20:36:47 <pikhq> Hardsubs anger me. 20:40:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:42:33 <alise> WHY DOES THIS NOT FURK 20:43:25 <ais523> alise: pastebin it somewhere, I'm interested now 20:43:43 -!- coppro has joined. 20:43:43 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 20:43:43 -!- coppro has joined. 20:44:00 <alise> def C(x):s.insstr(23,0,' '*80);s.addstr(23,0,x);s.redrawwin();s.refresh() 20:44:03 <alise> this inexplicably fixes everything 20:44:05 <alise> (the redraw lines) 20:44:24 <alise> ais523: http://pastie.org/1201439.txt?key=fo9d7wsmz1xh8b6gwnkbvg 20:44:26 <alise> to make it break 20:44:30 <alise> remove ";s.redrawwin();s.refresh()" 20:44:42 <alise> things that fail: get a ! (potion), q(uaff) it, doesn't show until next turn 20:44:43 <ais523> oh, I wasn't planning to run it 20:44:57 <alise> hold down j (only j works, I have no idea why), watch turn and satiation counters not change after a while 20:45:00 <alise> move in another direction 20:45:01 <alise> go WTF 20:45:07 <alise> ais523: it's perfectly innocuous... 20:45:19 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: No max HP hooray <-- heh 20:45:24 <alise> there is now 20:45:25 <alise> (300) 20:46:32 <Vorpal> ah 20:46:36 <Vorpal> alise, any leveling? 20:46:41 <alise> nope 20:46:47 <Vorpal> it isn't much of a rougelike without that :( 20:46:50 <alise> or monsters yet 20:46:56 <ais523> alise: does anything else on your botl update? 20:47:00 <alise> Vorpal: oh eff of, it's going to be like 150 lines *with* the boss 20:47:03 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's an issue with the cursor position 20:47:07 <alise> alise: $ when you get $ 20:47:12 <Vorpal> alise, what do you call it? 20:47:14 <alise> HP obviously 20:47:17 <alise> Vorpal: vagrant 20:47:19 <alise> vagrant.py 20:47:30 <alise> *eff off 20:47:42 <Vorpal> alise, ah I need to make a Vagrant'ELM then (Extended Levels and Magic) ;) 20:48:15 <Vorpal> probably won't do it though, not enough motivation 20:49:13 <alise> brb 20:49:15 <Vorpal> it seems I more and more prefer thinking about programming than actually programming. Not just the theoretical parts, but also sometimes the implementation details 20:49:23 <alise> ais523: if you actually figure it out, do enlighten me :P 20:49:26 <Vorpal> if only someone invented a serialization interface for the brain 20:49:56 <ais523> so N and S don't change, but G does? 20:50:19 <Vorpal> I mean, I thought about brainfuck optimisation quite a bit recently, and thought of some interesting things, but meh, can't be bothered to code all the analysis needed for it. 20:50:30 <Vorpal> mostly ways to optimise unbalanced loops 20:50:53 <Vorpal> require quite a lot of graph operations to figure out invariants and such 20:52:51 <alise> ais523: N and S change, yes. 20:52:53 <alise> all of them change 20:52:57 <alise> at different times 20:53:02 <alise> N and S change in lockstep except when you eat 20:53:02 <ais523> I mean, when holding down k 20:53:04 <ais523> *j 20:53:07 <ais523> rather than in general 20:53:12 <alise> ais523: N and S change but not G unless you run into anything. 20:53:18 <alise> any $s, in particular 20:53:24 <alise> P would change if you run into a potion 20:53:26 <alise> but this happens on open space 20:53:28 <ais523> when holding down j and N and S become bugged, does G also change? 20:53:34 <ais523> when you hit a $ at random? 20:53:37 <alise> and somehow, *not redrawing* causes the variables to change state permanently(?!?!?!) 20:53:48 <alise> ais523: i'm not sure, it's never happened to me 20:53:50 <alise> you'd have to try 20:53:51 <alise> brb 20:53:53 <Vorpal> alise, argh not vimkeys 20:53:58 <Vorpal> numpad numpad! 20:54:01 <alise> Vorpal: no. 20:54:02 <alise> brb 20:54:04 <Vorpal> alise, :( 20:54:21 <ais523> Vorpal: I assumed you'd use vikeys for roguelikes... 20:54:27 <cpressey> numpad controls + laptop = argh 20:54:33 <alise> no, he is allergic to vikeys 20:54:35 <ais523> cpressey: that's why I learnt vikeys initially 20:54:38 <alise> and religiously insists on numpad 20:54:39 <alise> now really 20:54:39 <alise> brb 20:57:28 <cpressey> Python would be just that much less obnoxious if only it had 'isa' and 'has' and 'can' 21:00:34 <pikhq> alise: Imagine the storage space that could be had if we brought back 5¼" hard drives. 21:00:55 <pikhq> Y'know. 21:00:59 <pikhq> s/alise: // 21:01:21 <cpressey> pikhq: I touched one once! It was already dead, alas. 21:02:27 -!- augur has joined. 21:04:58 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_%28programming_language%29 21:08:05 <cpressey> I need a language where tokenization happens on case-change boundaries 21:09:04 <cpressey> SwapDivPrint 21:09:08 -!- pineal_aenimal has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds). 21:09:12 <fizzie> I think there's a 40 MB 5.25" IDE HD in my closet. Imagine the storage space. 21:09:42 <pikhq> A modern 5¼" drive. Imagine what could be. 21:10:18 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, it's split to a 32 MB and 8 MB FAT partitions, because DOS ~3.2 didn't support such hugeness. 21:13:19 <ais523> alise: when you get back, I can't see what's causing the error, but am confused about scopes; why is there a "global" in M but not D? 21:14:32 <cpressey> wait, that should be: swapDIVprint 21:17:57 <cpressey> i should totally write a utility that just fills my terminal with randomly coloured solid squares. 21:18:02 <cpressey> i would actually find this useful 21:18:36 <cpressey> my poorman's version is ls -la with dir colourization active 21:18:58 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:19:14 -!- cpressey has joined. 21:19:31 <cpressey> ohai 21:19:53 <cpressey> irssi threw "status access violation" or something 21:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Moral: don't mess with the status access. 21:21:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:21:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 21:21:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, wait, it was you who did Burro, right? 21:24:21 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: The same! 21:24:27 <cpressey> I mean: yes. 21:25:13 <ais523> cpressey: why do you want a utility to do that? 21:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> To beat a dead horse some more, aren't groups and monads the same kind of thing? 21:25:16 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard... 21:25:57 <cpressey> ais523: To easily see when I've reached the top of the output of the last command I issued when I browse the scrollback. 21:26:04 <cpressey> I run ls -la before it. 21:26:06 <ais523> aha 21:26:23 <cpressey> Running 'rainbow vomit' or such would be much cooler, though. 21:27:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Same kind of thing? Sure. 21:28:02 <cpressey> We have this thing, and this other thing, and they do stuff. 21:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. a group is a set G, a function . : G×G→G and the conditions of identity, inversion and associativity. 21:29:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: I assumed you'd use vikeys for roguelikes... <-- this is not the first time you told me that 21:29:46 <Vorpal> and I told you I do not 21:30:01 <Vorpal> ais523, it is like the 7th time over the past few years 21:30:48 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Python would be just that much less obnoxious if only it had 'isa' and 'has' and 'can' <--- like... "import foo" → "can has foo"? 21:30:51 <Vorpal> ;P 21:31:02 <Phantom_Hoover> A monad is a functor m, functions unit and join and the monad laws. 21:31:24 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: A group is a tool for studying symmetry mathematically. 21:31:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Your turn. 21:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Touché... 21:33:11 <alise> tofu 21:33:25 <alise> ais523: you only need global to assign 21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I think the category-theoretical definition of monads involves wrapping around data. 21:33:27 <alise> thank guido 21:33:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really. 21:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, VERY SLIGHTLY 21:33:56 <ais523> alise: are you sure? does it not form a closure without? 21:34:15 <alise> ais523: not if you do += 21:34:15 <cpressey> Vorpal: not exactly what I had in mind 21:34:18 <alise> works if you do =, just forms a closure 21:34:21 <alise> but if you do += it fails 21:34:27 <alise> because it expands to 21:34:28 <alise> x = x + ... 21:34:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, I suspected as much 21:34:30 <alise> and x isn't definef 21:34:31 <alise> *defined 21:34:33 <alise> because you're defining it 21:34:38 <alise> so it must be part of the new scope, not globals 21:34:39 <alise> so it errors 21:34:40 <alise> hooray 21:34:47 <cpressey> all hail the simplicity of unscopedness 21:34:51 <ais523> alise: I mean, if you use a variable inside a definition, don't you read the value it had when the definition was defined? 21:34:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, hovering I just couldnt resist joking about that horrible lolcode 21:35:05 <alise> ais523: let's put it this way 21:35:07 <alise> x=3 21:35:10 <alise> def f():return x 21:35:12 <alise> f() => 3 21:35:14 <alise> ------------------- 21:35:15 <alise> x=3 21:35:18 <alise> def f(): 21:35:21 <alise> x=9 21:35:22 <alise> return x 21:35:23 <alise> f() => 9 21:35:24 <alise> BUT 21:35:25 <alise> -------------- 21:35:26 <alise> x = 3 21:35:26 <ais523> bleh 21:35:27 <alise> def f(): 21:35:30 <ais523> what sort of scoping is that? 21:35:30 <alise> x = x + 3 21:35:33 <alise> return x 21:35:34 <alise> f() => ERROR 21:35:43 <alise> because it sees that x is defined somewhere, yet you use it before it's defined! 21:35:47 <alise> ais523: no, that scoping is okay 21:35:48 <alise> the first two 21:35:51 <alise> the second one doesn't modify the global 21:35:58 <alise> it creates a local 21:35:59 <alise> and now finally 21:36:00 <alise> x = 3 21:36:01 <ais523> the second one looks like some sort of scope-by-reference 21:36:03 <alise> no 21:36:05 <alise> fff 21:36:09 <alise> it doesn't mutate global x 21:36:13 <Vorpal> the third one is the real issue 21:36:14 <alise> i already said that 21:36:17 <alise> and finally 21:36:17 <ais523> oh 21:36:18 <alise> x = 3 21:36:19 <alise> def f() 21:36:21 <alise> def f(): 21:36:22 <alise> global x 21:36:25 <alise> x = x + 3 21:36:26 <alise> return x 21:36:28 <alise> f() => 6 21:36:29 <alise> x => 6 21:36:33 <ais523> I'm asking about x=3; def f(): return x; x=9; print f() 21:36:38 <ais523> which isn't a case you've suggested so far 21:36:43 <alise> ais523: 9 21:36:49 <ais523> that's what I was bletching at 21:37:03 <Vorpal> wait what 21:37:08 <Vorpal> that is wrong order? 21:37:15 <cpressey> all hail 21:37:28 <ais523> hmm, I suppose it's using lexical scoping there 21:37:32 <ais523> but explicit 21:37:40 <alise> ais523: huh? 21:37:43 <alise> you need to show f's grouping 21:37:48 <alise> x=3 21:37:50 <alise> def f(): 21:37:51 <alise> return x 21:37:51 <alise> x=9 21:37:57 <alise> print f() => prints 9 21:37:58 <ais523> that's what I meant 21:37:59 <alise> that is obvious 21:37:59 * Vorpal throws a hail storm at cpressey 21:38:02 <alise> that's what everything does 21:38:07 <Vorpal> hailstorm* 21:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't Haskell allow you to define monads that don't even obey the monad laws. 21:38:25 <Vorpal> English isn't even consistent about *which* words it writes as one 21:38:25 <ais523> so here, x in f() means "the current value of the variable x that exists in the scope where f was defined" 21:38:25 <cpressey> ais523: "lexical" 21:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> *? 21:38:41 <ais523> I think that's lexical scoping 21:38:54 <alise> ais523: there, yes 21:38:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes 21:39:12 <Vorpal> ais523, can you explain this in English: "hailstorm" but "car engine", why not "hail storm" or "carengine" 21:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> MADNESS 21:39:31 <ais523> Vorpal: historical accident 21:39:37 <ais523> although "hail storm" is also correct 21:39:50 <Vorpal> ais523, is there any pattern to when words are written together and when they aren't? 21:39:50 <cpressey> although "hail stone" might not be 21:39:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, see 21:40:05 <ais523> Vorpal: not that I know of 21:40:07 <Vorpal> even more confusing 21:40:19 <alise> Vorpal: Swedish isn't totally consistent either so shaddup 21:40:32 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more though, also any specific examples? 21:41:27 <Vorpal> ais523, and you imported the word "gravad lax" from Swedish (much like you did with smörgåsbord), except you turned it into "gravadlax" iirc. Since usually it is English who writes as separate words it doesn't make much sense XD. (Also it is completely logically that it should be two words in Swedish) 21:41:28 <alise> Vorpal: i don't know swedish, but i know for a fact it isn't totally consistent. 21:41:34 <Vorpal> (if anyone cares I could explain why) 21:41:42 <alise> i also know that if anyone used it as much as english, it would be just as inconsistent 21:42:00 <Vorpal> alise, correct, we have other issues, you have easy rules for when to use "a" and when to use "an", we have en/ett and no easy rules for when to use which 21:42:36 <alise> ais523: I simply have no idea how that code could possibly cause the number of turns to decrease, ever. 21:42:54 <Vorpal> alise, I was just looking for a pattern in this specific issue, I did not claim Swedish was consistent in general of course. Such a claim would be absurd. Where did you get that from? 21:43:24 <alise> nowhere 21:43:33 <alise> i'm just saying stop acting like it's strange that english is so abhorrently inconsistent 21:43:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:43:52 <Vorpal> I did not. I was just wondering about a specific issue 21:44:04 <cpressey> a language doesn't travel halfway across the globe without picking up a few venereal diseases 21:44:06 <Vorpal> alise,, maybe you should try to base your attacks on something more substantial than thin air next time 21:44:07 <Vorpal> :) 21:44:25 <alise> Vorpal: you often complain about english. 21:44:29 <alise> it is really irritating and boring. 21:44:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, my interest in this was simply finding a better way to figure out than checking if aspell accepts the written together form 21:44:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: The pattern is this: English does compound words with spaces between the components. Things that don't do this are exceptions. 21:44:55 <Vorpal> alise, don't generalise. I didn't do it in this case. 21:45:04 <Vorpal> alise, so yeah your attack was based on thin air 21:45:13 <pikhq> And also: always-adding-spaces is also correct. 21:45:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm 21:45:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, like "hail stone"? 21:45:26 <alise> pikhq: Correct but inidiomatic. 21:45:31 <pikhq> Perfectly correct. 21:45:33 <alise> And with English, really, only idiomatic matters. 21:45:35 <Vorpal> hm 21:45:39 <alise> no 21:45:41 <alise> hail stone isn't 21:45:49 <alise> a hailstone isn't a type of stone 21:45:53 <alise> it's just a hailstone 21:45:57 <alise> whereas a hail storm is a storm of hail 21:46:01 <pikhq> alise: It doesn't get noticed at all as unidiomatic. And in fact I'd write it as "hail stone", likely. 21:46:03 <cpressey> well, i will certainly know what you mean if you say "a hail stone hit me in the forehead" 21:46:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about "arrow head" then? 21:46:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:46:31 * alise adds monsters 21:46:41 <Vorpal> alise, nice, what sort of monsters? 21:46:41 <cpressey> germanic vs latinate steel cage match 21:46:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'd write that as "arrowhead". 21:46:44 <alise> Vorpal: evil ones 21:46:54 <Vorpal> cpressey, correction: "fore head" :P 21:46:56 <alise> Monsters that only start moving when you walk into their view: realistic! 21:47:01 -!- augur has joined. 21:47:03 <pikhq> Don't think "arrow head" is wrong, though. 21:47:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, same, but would "arrow head" be correct? 21:47:09 <Vorpal> ah 21:47:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: "fore head" screams "wrong" though. 21:47:29 <cpressey> "arrow head" has amusing connotations to me. like it's an unusual part of an arrow. 21:47:44 <pikhq> I'm parsing "fore" as a morpheme but not an individual word. 21:47:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, which shows that the "spaces is always correct" rule suddenly breaks down :P 21:47:56 <Vorpal> hm 21:48:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, you have fore and aft hm 21:48:12 <cpressey> star board 21:48:18 <alise> Hmm, what should monsters look like. 21:48:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: English orthography is hard, mmkay? 21:48:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, that should be "stearing side", iirc that is the history of the term 21:48:42 <alise> Q. Q is a good monster colour. 21:48:44 <Vorpal> comes from scandinavian langauges iirc 21:48:47 <Vorpal> old norse or such 21:49:08 <Vorpal> it's "styrbord" in Swedish, which is a lot closer to making sense in the modern form 21:49:24 <Vorpal> like starboard which changed so much that it doesn't make immediate sense any more 21:49:49 <cpressey> well, i hasten to point out that there is no "steering side" on a modern ship either 21:49:59 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Large_Hailstons_in_Leipzig_Jun06.jpg 21:50:02 <alise> Ouch. 21:50:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, "The origin of the term starboard comes from early boating practices. Before ships had rudders on their centerlines, they were steered by use of a specialized steering oar. This oar was held by an oarsman located in the stern (back) of the ship. However, like most of society, there were many more right-handed sailors than left-handed sailors. This meant that the steering oar (which had been broadened to provide better control) used to 21:50:05 <Vorpal> be affixed to the right side of the ship." 21:50:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:50:22 <alise> I don't want to store health for every single monster... Hmm. 21:50:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, not on modern ones, but surely you have seen viking ships on TV and museums and such? 21:50:47 <Vorpal> or maybe not over there 21:50:48 <Vorpal> hm 21:50:50 <ais523> alise: make hitting the monster kill it outright with small probability, do nothing otherwise? 21:51:00 <ais523> so the more you pound on any given monster, the more likely it is to die in that time? 21:51:05 <alise> ais523: Stupid interpretation of US law ahoy: "if corporations are people, and slavery is the trade/exchange/purchase/sale of people, and the stock market is the trade/exchange/purchase/sale of corporations. Then in effect, the Stock Market is a slave Market." 21:51:16 <alise> Because the law literally says "CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE" 21:51:16 <ais523> I like that one 21:51:19 <alise> And this is why corporations get jobs! 21:51:21 <alise> ais523: no, he's *serious* 21:51:26 <alise> ("The Citizens United ruling either needs to be overturned or the Stock Market needs to be eliminated for violating the Constitution...") 21:51:49 <ais523> the difference is that the word "owning" has a different meaning wrt corporations, and wrt natural persons, to some extent 21:51:55 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:52:01 <ais523> still, if you can control a person's actions via voting at them, isn't that slavery in some respects? 21:52:04 <cpressey> he did put it in terms of 'if then' 21:52:23 <ais523> you know, I think that argument might technically be legally correct with a literal meaning 21:52:29 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: no, he's *serious* <-- who? 21:52:33 <alise> Vorpal: reddit 21:52:35 <Vorpal> ah 21:52:43 <alise> ais523: yes, but no law says "corporations are people" 21:52:48 <alise> just "corporations have these rights, yada yada yada" 21:53:03 <ais523> I thought there was a law defining corporations as "persons" 21:53:05 <cpressey> the concept is "corporate personhood" 21:53:07 <ais523> (stupid legal plurals...) 21:53:10 <alise> if not randint(0,14): 21:53:10 <alise> Q('Euuch! That must have been poisoned...',1);L-=randint(15,20) 21:53:13 <alise> food is a bitch in this game 21:53:16 <cpressey> that corporations have all the same rights as people 21:53:26 <alise> cpressey: not all, IIRC 21:53:27 <alise> just many 21:53:40 <cpressey> alise: the concept. not the reality 21:53:40 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/dn3b9/can_we_make_this_happen_redditor_suggests/c11fnbm 21:53:47 <alise> ^ from someone who actually knows it :P 21:53:56 <alise> "While I disagree violently with the ruling, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent in law and allows a destabilizing financial force to enter our political process, the OP's remarks above have no basis in law or reality and would certainly have no power to convince a jury to repeal this verdict." 21:54:34 <alise> ais523: a while back, I had a bit of crisis, in that I oppose corporate personhood but supported agoran partnerships 21:54:37 <alise> ais523: then I realised IT'S A GAME 21:54:54 <ais523> agoran partnerships are clearly a bad idea if you're trying to build a fair democracy 21:55:06 <ais523> good thing that that isn't the goal at Agora, or it would be a very boring game 21:55:40 <alise> right :) 21:56:49 <ais523> in fact, I think you can oppose corporate personhood and support agoran partnerships for the same reasons 21:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it possible to inject viral rules into Agora? 21:56:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and has been done before now 21:56:59 <ais523> but I doubt it would be all that interesting 21:57:05 <Phantom_Hoover> What did they do? 21:57:26 <ais523> one of them changed precedences at random, IIRC 21:57:32 <ais523> as in, it was a rule fragment that made the rule defer to other rules 21:58:12 <Vorpal> heh 21:58:20 <Vorpal> ais523, how would it spread? 21:58:40 <ais523> I think it wasn't a truly independent virus, but rather was spread by a separate rule 21:58:49 <Vorpal> hm 21:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there any fully permanent rules? 21:59:01 <Vorpal> ais523, how would a truly independent one work? 21:59:12 <ais523> it'd contain the code for replicating itself 21:59:17 <alise> pikhq: what is it with crazy Americans and not wanting to pay income tax? 21:59:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, as in any rule can in theory be changed via a 3:1 majority 21:59:26 <Vorpal> hm 21:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so that rule is therefore immutable. 21:59:51 <Vorpal> ais523, couldn't that be changed to require a 4:1 ? 21:59:55 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed 22:00:10 <ais523> you could change the rules to make them truly immutable, although such a change would be unlikely to pass 22:00:11 <alise> ais523: hmm, even the fountain? 22:00:30 <Vorpal> alise, hm? 22:00:31 <alise> oh, wait 22:00:34 <alise> just use a power=3 rule to kill it 22:00:36 <ais523> alise: the fountain can legally be changed at AI 3; most people would think it very bad form to change it at an AI less than 4, though 22:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> AI? 22:00:50 <ais523> and many people think it should only be changed via scam 22:00:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Agoran Intelligence? 22:01:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the higher the AI, the harder it is for a proposal to pass, but the more it can if it does pass 22:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And surely the voting rules are immutable? 22:01:05 <ais523> *more it can do 22:01:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:01:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and of course not, they change frequently in fact 22:01:19 <Vorpal> ais523, what does AI stand for? 22:01:26 <ais523> adoption index 22:01:29 <Vorpal> a 22:01:30 <Vorpal> ah* 22:01:38 -!- augur has joined. 22:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so can the 3:1 rule be disabled and then a permanent rule introduced? 22:01:42 <ais523> anyway, 3 is enough to change anything, but by convention some things need more (and people vote against otherwise) 22:01:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: of course 22:01:52 <ais523> other rules need to be disabled too to make a permanent rule 22:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Has this been attempted? 22:01:59 <ais523> such as the one that says permanent rules are disallowed 22:02:05 <ais523> and no, because permanent rules are a stupid idea 22:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Permanent viral rules? 22:02:17 <ais523> as the whole point of a nomic is to not have permanent rules 22:02:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the 3:1 rule is just the proposal-passing rule. 22:02:24 <ais523> even that's a bad idea 22:02:35 <ais523> why would you even want a permanent viral rule? 22:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> A single rule which says only "this rule is immutable". 22:02:51 <ais523> even that would be bad form IMO 22:02:58 <ais523> if you want a permanent trophy, make it too cool to repeal 22:03:15 <ais523> as in, people will never vote to repeal it 22:03:17 <Vorpal> ais523, such as the fountain? 22:03:20 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:03:22 <ais523> exactly 22:03:30 <Vorpal> ais523, wasn't there a whale too? 22:03:34 <ais523> rule 104's never been changed, and as a result, most players will refuse to vote for changes to it 22:03:42 <ais523> especially as there's no reason to change or repeal it 22:03:55 <ais523> Vorpal: rule 2105 22:04:03 <impomatic> What happened to egobot? 22:04:08 <Vorpal> ais523, http://www.agoranomic.org/ <-- wait, did they redesign that page 22:04:10 <ais523> that one's was explicitly intended for people to scam their way into, eventually, but it lasted longer than expected 22:04:13 <ais523> Vorpal: "they"? 22:04:14 <Vorpal> the agora nomic website that is 22:04:16 <ais523> I wrote that 22:04:20 <Vorpal> hah 22:04:20 <alise> Vorpal: ais523 rewrote it, now it's unreadable 22:04:27 <Vorpal> alise, no it isn't 22:04:28 <alise> (because of the silly two columns) 22:04:29 <ais523> and alise has gone all crazy about inability to read the page 22:04:29 <Vorpal> just different 22:04:37 <ais523> alise: if a page is in two columns and one is ads, is it unreadable? 22:04:52 <Vorpal> alise, why would two columns be unreadable 22:04:52 <alise> ais523: you'd fill a whole column with ads? 22:04:56 <Vorpal> wikipedia main page uses that 22:04:58 <ais523> alise: I've seen it done 22:04:59 <Vorpal> and a lot more 22:05:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:05:08 <alise> also, I try and keep a policy of not talking to anyone who takes disagreement as "going all crazy" 22:05:09 <Vorpal> w3c uses 3 columns iirc 22:05:12 <ais523> I wouldn't, I mean 22:05:13 <alise> so please don't. 22:05:24 <ais523> but if you can filter out ads from a second column, why not text? 22:05:29 <alise> Vorpal: w3c uses three columns, of which one is content and the other two is navigation 22:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Agora would seem an interesting thing to do, but I suspect it'd require a large investment of time and effort... 22:05:43 <Vorpal> alise, anyway why is two columns of text wrong? 22:05:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, it requires basically 0 22:06:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not that much, you only need to pay attention once a week or so, maybe even less 22:06:06 <alise> i'm a lazy arse who just mocks wooble every now and then on the mailing list 22:06:08 <alise> and i'm still a player 22:06:30 <ais523> if you want things to /happen/, you basically have to do them yourself, otherwise it just sits there doing nothing but the occasional report 22:06:42 <ais523> but if you're content to watch and chip in occasionally, hardly any effort's required 22:07:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't understand rule 104 22:07:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I just read it 22:07:28 <Vorpal> ais523, what is a speaker in agora? It takes too much to find the relevant rules 22:07:31 * impomatic offers ais523 as a sacrifice to summon Egobot. 22:07:32 <ais523> The Speaker for the first game shall be Michael Norrish 22:07:35 <ais523> ouch 22:07:48 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, you said that "<ais523> rule 104's never been changed, and as a result, most players will refuse to vote for changes to it" 22:07:49 <Vorpal> so um 22:07:52 <ais523> the Speaker for the first game /was/ Michael Norrish, it doesn't matter what it means now 22:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, I still have the swatpan. 22:08:01 <Vorpal> ais523, ah 22:08:06 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans ais523 --==\#/ 22:08:08 <ais523> thus, Michael Norrish is obligated to be MIchael Norrish, an obligation that he takes very seriously 22:08:18 <Vorpal> ais523, err? XD 22:08:30 <alise> once, Michael Norrish was not Michael Norrish 22:08:34 <alise> we exiled him from the game retroactively 22:08:47 <ais523> alise: is that just a blatant lie? 22:08:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:08:52 <ais523> or do you know something you aren't telling me? 22:08:58 <alise> ais523: I know ... all things ... 22:09:09 <alise> (it's as much of a blatant lie as him being serious about his responsibility to be himself) 22:09:12 <alise> (which is to say, entirely) 22:09:23 -!- augur has joined. 22:09:29 <ais523> alise: well, it was found via CFJ that he legally had to be Michael Norrish 22:09:38 <ais523> and he's generally been pretty good about keeping to the rules 22:09:47 <alise> ais523: hmm 22:09:51 <alise> ais523: ooh, I have an excellent idea 22:10:02 <alise> ais523: Michael Norrish is breaking the rules; I'll elaborate in /msg 22:10:42 <Vorpal> hm does "suffusion of yellow" come from Dirk Gently or does it have some older source? 22:11:04 <cpressey> impomatic: a sacrifice to Gregor, I assume 22:11:22 <ais523> Vorpal: incidentally, I learnt WML from looking at existing examples 22:11:23 <ais523> am I mad? 22:11:28 <alise> Vorpal: dirk gently 22:11:37 <alise> Vorpal: wait, no 22:11:39 <alise> RishoNomic 22:11:44 <alise> *Rishonomic 22:11:46 <Vorpal> alise, Dirk Gently would be older 22:11:47 <Vorpal> :P 22:11:56 <alise> it isn't 22:11:59 <Vorpal> ais523, it shouldn't be too hard 22:12:03 <alise> didn't you see how much time travel was in that story? 22:12:15 <Vorpal> alise, err...? 22:12:17 <ais523> also, what a language! 22:12:29 <ais523> it's like someone decided to make an XML-based language, and was serious about it 22:12:35 <ais523> but mixed it with the C preprocessor 22:12:45 <Vorpal> ais523, but it is a DSL so learning it from examples wouldn't be impossible 22:12:58 <Vorpal> at least in my experience 22:13:02 <ais523> Vorpal: it isn't a DSL, really 22:13:06 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? 22:13:06 <ais523> it's a pretty general language 22:13:10 <Vorpal> hah 22:13:33 <Vorpal> ais523, also I thought it was heavy on [ ] for syntax? was that the preprocessor stuff? 22:14:17 <ais523> Vorpal: no, that's the XML 22:14:22 <ais523> it uses square brackets rather than angle brackets 22:14:31 <ais523> the preprocessor uses #ifdef, etc, as in C 22:14:37 <ais523> except that # is /also/ a comment character 22:14:42 <ais523> and also, it uses braces 22:14:51 <cpressey> yay 22:15:15 <cpressey> is it pluggable? 22:15:18 <cpressey> it should be pluggable. 22:15:30 <ais523> cpressey: very pluggable 22:15:40 <Vorpal> ais523, hah 22:15:41 <ais523> you can do {path/to/directory} 22:15:48 <ais523> and it automatically #includes every file in that directory 22:16:01 <alise> ais523: is WML the WAP one? 22:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, not #include or anything such? 22:16:03 <cheater99> hi 22:16:04 <cheater99> sup 22:16:09 <alise> i guess not 22:16:10 <impomatic> cpressey: a sacrifice to anyone with the power to summon egobot. I want to test a BF Joust entry before I add it to the wiki :-) 22:16:10 <cpressey> ais523: does order matter? 22:16:12 <ais523> alise: no, Battle for Wesnoth 22:16:14 <Vorpal> alise, no? it is wesnoth 22:16:28 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not called #include, it's called {}, which is the syntax also used for something entirely different 22:16:35 <Vorpal> ais523, XD 22:16:41 <ais523> apparently, the game disambiguates by checking to see if the file in question exists or not 22:16:44 <Vorpal> ais523, I guess it is not LR(1) or? 22:16:51 <Vorpal> ah 22:16:56 <Vorpal> indeed crazy parsing at least 22:16:56 <ais523> (actually, hopefully it checks the list of definitions first) 22:17:03 <cpressey> ais523: the best kind of context dependency ever! 22:17:06 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it's basically XML, it parses incredibly regularly 22:17:20 <Vorpal> ais523, huh, but not preprocessing? 22:17:20 <ais523> in fact, the only way I found to make it error at all is to include a mismatched bracket or something like that 22:17:29 <ais523> anything else just fails silently 22:17:37 <Vorpal> ais523, that's rather nasty 22:17:58 <ais523> the lang isn't aware that it's trapped inside Wesnoth 22:17:58 <Vorpal> ais523, also why is the preprocessor used? Not for control flow I presume? 22:18:03 <ais523> Vorpal: for subroutines 22:18:03 <alise> TOAST A BEAR 22:18:07 <ais523> everything is inlined 22:18:09 <Vorpal> ais523, *ouhc* 22:18:13 <Vorpal> *ouch* 22:18:26 <Vorpal> alise, not large enough toaster 22:18:26 <ais523> there's a way around it, but it's really complex, involving setting up events to call each other in the future 22:18:29 <Vorpal> alise, otherwise: sure 22:18:31 <ais523> so the subroutines are more efficient 22:18:37 <alise> note to self: 22:18:41 <alise> Vorpal would eat toasted bear 22:18:46 <Vorpal> alise, no I wouldn't 22:18:49 <ais523> I suspect that the loading bar when you start playing is mostly inlining subroutines 22:18:50 <Vorpal> I would toast it 22:18:56 <Vorpal> I didn't say I would eat the result 22:18:57 <Vorpal> alise, :P 22:19:15 <Vorpal> alise, please read what it says, I would test it on you first 22:19:19 <Vorpal> to see if it was eatable 22:19:44 <ais523> *edible? 22:19:50 <ais523> besides, who eats a /toaster/ 22:19:51 <Vorpal> ais523, edible as well 22:20:05 <alise> eatable and edible, what a requirement 22:20:14 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:20:17 <Vorpal> ais523, eatable I define as "physically possible to eat, like you can get it into your mouth and so on" 22:20:20 <cheater99> alise 22:20:21 <olsner> nomable? 22:20:24 <cheater99> why does firefox suck so much 22:20:30 <Vorpal> edible I define as the usual meaning 22:20:30 <alise> Vorpal: your definition does not agree with the english language 22:20:33 <alise> cheater99: because it isn't chrome 22:20:38 <alise> Anything edible; That can be eaten without harm; non-toxic to humans; suitable for consumption; That can be eaten without disgust 22:20:39 <alise> en.wiktionary.org/wiki/edible 22:20:41 <Vorpal> alise, of course not, since when did it ever do that? 22:20:41 <olsner> cheater: due to excessive suckage 22:20:42 <cheater99> how did you know :( 22:20:49 <alise> Vorpal: "edible" does not mean "nice" 22:20:50 <cheater99> alise stop reading my mind 22:20:51 <ais523> chrome seems like an appropriate material to plate a toaster with... 22:20:56 <alise> "edible" means "literally able to be eaten" 22:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eatable 22:21:08 <alise> so what you mean by "eatable" is actually "edible" 22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> jesus fuck 22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> why is it so hard to find an extension for firefox 22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> that makes the address bar search things, like in chrome? 22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> it is impossible 22:21:13 <cheater99> * cheater99 says that with a french accent 22:21:15 <Vorpal> alis<alise> Vorpal: "edible" does not mean "nice" <-- correct 22:21:27 <Vorpal> alise, but see my link 22:21:35 <alise> edible (not comparable) 22:21:35 <alise> That can be eaten without harm; non-toxic to humans; suitable for consumption. 22:21:35 <alise> eatable (comparative more eatable, superlative most eatable) 22:21:35 <alise> Able to be eaten; edible 22:21:39 <alise> they mean the same thing. 22:21:39 <cheater99> alise: what if you say a girl is edible 22:21:46 <Vorpal> alise, okay then 22:21:46 <alise> except that eatable makes no sense. 22:21:53 <cheater99> would that mean she's nice? 22:21:55 <Vorpal> alise, it exists as a word 22:21:56 <alise> edible also means "That can be eaten without disgust." but less so 22:21:58 <Vorpal> alise, thus :P 22:22:05 <alise> cheater99: "Yeah, she's totally non-toxic to humans". 22:22:12 <cheater99> yeah. 22:22:28 <cheater99> alise: well "inedible" can still be "digestible" 22:22:37 <cheater99> like, there are some types of mushrooms 22:22:40 <alise> a guy digested a plane 22:22:40 <cheater99> that are not edible 22:22:43 <alise> doesn't mean the plane is edible :P 22:22:48 <cheater99> but if you force yourself to eat them, you won't die 22:23:04 <cheater99> or get ill 22:23:08 <cheater99> they are just terrible in taste 22:23:12 <cheater99> and difficult to chew 22:23:16 <cheater99> and stuff 22:23:26 <cheater99> but in a pinch, they provide protein 22:23:44 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:24:32 <cheater99> alise have you ever picked mushrooms 22:24:42 <cheater99> are you a person who enjoys trip to the woods 22:24:49 <alise> no. 22:25:00 <cheater99> you're missing out 22:25:54 -!- sshc has joined. 22:26:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:26:44 <Vorpal> cheater99, here is what I dislike about doing that: 22:27:05 <Vorpal> Exhibit A: Mushroom tasting nice. 22:27:09 <cheater99> you suddenly start hallucinating and find yourself in devonshire? 22:27:16 <Vorpal> Exhibit B: Looks exactly like A but lethal 22:27:24 <cheater99> with clothes on you've never seen before? 22:27:29 <Vorpal> Exhibit C: Looks exactly like A but causes you to hallucinate 22:27:40 <Vorpal> Exhibit D: Looks exactly like A but just tastes boring 22:27:45 <cheater99> inedible mushrooms look completely different 22:27:52 <cheater99> i'm not sure what you're talking about 22:27:57 <alise> i see no problem with exhibit c :) 22:28:07 <cheater99> ALISE :O 22:28:18 <alise> or d, really 22:28:21 * cheater99 suddenly thinks alise is a miscreant 22:28:25 <cheater99> omg 22:28:32 <cheater99> (not really) 22:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, well, depends on if you serve it at the annual anti-drug society meeting :P 22:28:41 <cheater99> Vorpal: haha 22:29:02 <Vorpal> alise, yes B is the issue 22:29:20 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway what about "kantarell" whatever that is called in English I don't know 22:29:31 <Vorpal> iirc there are some sorts that look extremely similar to a lethal one 22:29:35 <cheater99> i'll give you a hint: 22:29:37 <cheater99> find out 22:29:51 <cheater99> and then tell me what they're called in english. 22:30:38 <alise> takes two seconds with interwiki, maybe Vorpal could take the effort. 22:30:41 <cheater99> unless you mean podgrzybek szatański, whatever that is called in english i don't know. 22:30:53 <Vorpal> hm 22:31:01 <Vorpal> I found out it was not the one I was thinking of 22:31:13 <cheater99> vorpal, i think you need to use the wyszukiwarka tekstu. 22:31:26 <Vorpal> cheater99, I'm looking for the one I meant 22:31:34 <cheater99> ok good 22:31:46 <Vorpal> which was not kantarell (chanterelle) 22:31:58 <cheater99> hmm 22:32:01 <cheater99> it's 11:30 pm 22:32:10 <cheater99> should i go eat some french cheese? 22:32:42 <cheater99> alise: do you enjoy cheese? 22:32:48 <cheater99> Vorpal: i bet you're all for cheese 22:33:27 <Vorpal> yes, well not all sorts 22:33:32 <Vorpal> I can't stand goat cheese 22:33:55 <Vorpal> ah yes it was chantarell 22:34:04 <Vorpal> cheater99, this is the very similar one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygrophoropsis_aurantiaca 22:34:30 <Vorpal> not lethal 22:34:32 <Vorpal> but still nasty 22:35:19 <cpressey> ok lets talk about mushrooms 22:35:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:35:47 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway, there you are, night now → 22:36:05 <Ilari> There are pairs of very good and very toxic mushrooms that look very near the same... 22:36:24 <Vorpal> Ilari, exactly 22:36:26 <Vorpal> →→ 22:36:51 <alise> Vorpal: AI is hard, maybe I'll just make them walk randomly. 22:37:37 <cpressey> alise: make them kill their own kind 22:38:31 <cpressey> alise: and add mushrooms of hallucination 22:38:47 <alise> hallu would be hard with my design 22:38:48 <alise> although maybe not 22:39:01 <cheater99> Ilari: they look nearly the same, except their biotopes don't intersect. 22:39:01 <cheater99> almost never ever. 22:39:08 <cheater99> and if they do, every guide book has a big warning about it 22:39:30 <cheater99> and lists the give away characteristics 22:39:44 <Ilari> And then there are at least one pair of mushrooms that look nearly the same, but one is very good and one tastes extremely bad. 22:40:00 <cpressey> one is the evil twin 22:41:01 <cheater99> my point stands 22:41:25 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:42:12 <alise> haha wow hallu is amazing 22:45:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:46:50 <alise> Wow, it's evil. 22:46:59 <alise> Even you can change character. 22:47:49 <cheater99> This mushroom is commonly confused with the Chanterelle; the distinguishing factors are color (true Chanterelle is uniform egg-yellow, while the false one is more orange in hue and graded, with darker center) and attachment of gills to the stem (true Chanterelle does not have true, blade-like gills--rather, has rib-like folds running down the stem). 22:47:51 <cheater99> dude 22:48:04 <cheater99> those blades are the giveaway 22:48:47 <cheater99> alise: what hallu? 22:49:00 <Sgeo> What game? 22:49:00 <alise> cheater99: hallu in vagrant, my silly roguelike 22:49:04 <Sgeo> Ah 22:49:27 <cheater99> alise: oh, i thought you meant a hallucination 22:49:35 <alise> 65 lines of python and no architecture that'll let enemies behave non-stupidly! 22:49:37 <cheater99> alise: i thought you have realized your plan of taking magical mushrooms 22:49:38 <alise> well 22:49:39 <alise> actually 22:49:44 <alise> i can make them chase you no matter what 22:49:52 <alise> cheater99: lol, that'd be some speed 22:50:32 <Vorpal> cheater99, another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blusher 22:51:31 <alise> hmm, maybe killing a dude should give you like $1,000 22:52:26 <Sgeo> alise, your roguelike needs to be easily FooTV-like-system-able 22:52:34 <Sgeo> It's probably one of my favorite things about Crawl 22:52:40 <alise> Sgeo: there is only one enemy and it doesn't even move. 22:52:41 <cpressey> Hi Sgeo 22:52:44 <alise> not yet at least 22:52:47 <cheater99> Vorpal: umm, HELLOO 22:52:51 <cheater99> anyone home? 22:52:58 <cheater99> even on this shitty lcd monitor.. 22:53:01 <Sgeo> Probably lots of people 22:53:03 <cheater99> i can see this thing is pink 22:53:12 <cheater99> how could you ever think it's edible? 22:53:24 <Vorpal> cheater99, utter fail 22:53:24 <cheater99> edible mushrooms are yellow-brown. 22:53:26 <Vorpal> "Although edible, it can be confused with deadly poisonous species, and should definitely be avoided by novice mushroomers." 22:53:47 <cpressey> and novice bear toasters alike 22:53:48 <cheater99> well there you go 22:53:53 <cheater99> who cares if it's edible 22:53:55 <cheater99> don't touch it 22:53:58 <cheater99> get a different one 22:54:02 -!- augur has joined. 22:54:04 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py 22:54:04 <alise> 1605 vagrant.py 22:54:06 <alise> pretty good charcount for this 22:54:10 <Vorpal> cheater99, still my point stands: they all look alike unless you are an expert 22:54:27 <cheater99> why would you ever want to do that 22:54:35 <Vorpal> do what? 22:54:41 <Vorpal> eat mushrooms? good question 22:54:45 <cheater99> search for mushrooms which look like shitty ones 22:54:46 <cpressey> run wc? 22:55:21 <Vorpal> cheater99, irrelevant for my original claim 22:55:25 <cheater99> alise: paste code plz 22:55:34 <cheater99> Vorpal: your original claim was that it was a problem 22:55:36 <cheater99> Vorpal: it is not. 22:55:39 <cheater99> u loze 22:55:43 <Vorpal> cheater99, it is 22:55:52 <cheater99> to someone who does dumb things, yes 22:56:02 <Vorpal> the biotope thing is not enough to help me at least. I'm not a nature person 22:56:09 <Vorpal> I couldn't tell what biotope it was 22:56:19 <Vorpal> thus my original claim stands 22:57:05 <Vorpal> cheater99, also /<cheater99> u/s/u/you/;s/loze/lose/ 22:57:10 <Vorpal> learn to spell 22:57:13 <Vorpal> night → 22:57:29 <cheater99> lrn2sed 22:57:56 <Vorpal> cheater99, yes it was completely correct sed 22:58:10 <cheater99> i thought u sed nite 22:58:18 <Vorpal> cheater99, I had not turned off monitor yet 22:58:50 <Vorpal> cheater99, also please learn to type. people writing "u" instead of "you" and so on is *really* annoying 22:58:52 <cheater99> also, you don't say "correct sed", you say "correctly sed". 22:58:56 <alise> Vorpal: oh it is? 22:58:59 <Vorpal> it makes them look like idiots 22:59:04 <alise> Vorpal: well ull hav 2 get used 2 it 22:59:09 <alise> Vorpal: wont u 22:59:10 <cheater99> vlr; 22:59:13 <Vorpal> alise, And indeed, so you said 22:59:17 <alise> Vorpal: *sed 22:59:20 <alise> Vorpal: *'n 22:59:24 <alise> *u 22:59:34 <Vorpal> <cheater99> also, you don't say "correct sed", you say "correctly sed". <-- no, I used sed as a verb 22:59:38 <cheater99> Vorpal: n' no commaz 22:59:41 <cheater99> dat iz unkool. 22:59:43 <Vorpal> wait 22:59:48 <Vorpal> I mean noun of course 22:59:49 <cheater99> *w8 22:59:52 <Vorpal> you can use it both ways 22:59:55 <alise> punk-tutuashion is unk00wl 23:00:00 <alise> apart 4rom - 23:00:10 <cheater99> u sed it alise 23:00:11 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 23:00:15 <Vorpal> alise, you know, this is just filtered out :P 23:00:16 <alise> s/it/alise/ 23:00:22 <cheater99> ^5! 23:00:33 <Vorpal> and now I say good night, unlike last time I used /away as well 23:00:38 <Vorpal> that makes a difference → 23:00:51 <cheater99> *dat 23:00:51 <alise> cheater99: you should debug my code 23:00:55 <alise> Vorpal: hi 23:01:00 <cheater99> alise: url? 23:01:19 <alise> cheater99: http://pastie.org/1201769.txt?key=xtvbpktbvv5gbzotg5bphw 23:01:23 <alise> yes, it's golfed 23:01:42 <alise> the monster movement code (the nested for loop in M) 23:01:44 <alise> crashes it somehow 23:01:49 <alise> unfortunately the endwin means you never see the exception :D 23:01:56 <alise> something's wrong with it, anyway 23:02:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:02:09 <alise> good luck figuring out what all the variables do, i pretty much just pick a letter of the alphabet 23:02:15 <alise> w[y,x]=46;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64 23:02:16 <alise> erm 23:02:17 <alise> that should be 23:02:20 <alise> w[y,x]=32;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64 23:02:26 <alise> (that doesn't fix it) 23:03:16 <cheater99> what's "golfed"? 23:04:05 <alise> KeyError: (4, 46) 23:04:05 <alise> hm 23:04:09 <alise> cheater99: "made to be as short as possible" 23:04:11 <alise> ugliness be damned 23:04:17 <alise> after code golf, the sport 23:04:24 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/ is the prime hub for that malarkey 23:05:00 <alise> oh joy, it crashes no longer 23:05:02 <alise> but the guys don't MOVE! 23:06:17 <alise> cool i can walk into walls now, why. 23:06:42 <alise> cheater99: okay, remove that first for loop in M and write something that makes all the Qs on the visible board move closer to the guy. 23:06:44 <alise> that is your task 23:06:57 <oerjan> <Ilari> There are pairs of very good and very toxic mushrooms that look very near the same... 23:07:00 <alise> (you may want to play it a few times to figure out what all the variables are) 23:07:05 <cheater99> um 23:07:15 <cheater99> that's great, my problem is that my pc is going nuts 23:07:23 <cheater99> i think the gfx card is overheating 23:07:29 <cheater99> i see some buffer glitches 23:07:47 <oerjan> it also depends on geography, i hear some asian immigrants to norway get poisoned because one of our poisonous mushrooms look like an edible east asian one 23:07:57 <oerjan> s/hear/read in the newspaper/ 23:07:59 <alise> cheater99: thankfully, vagrant runs even without much of a graphics card! 23:08:06 <alise> (can it do text? Yes? YOU WIN!) 23:08:06 <oerjan> *looks 23:08:07 <cheater99> alise: post the current code 23:08:11 <alise> cheater99: okay 23:08:35 <alise> cheater99: http://pastie.org/1201784.txt?key=gvzfssnyfqjigfcfm92luq 23:08:36 <cpressey> alise: so your game is about eating 23:08:40 <alise> partly. 23:08:42 <alise> :P 23:09:09 <alise> cheater99: x,y is your position, X,Y is position of centre cell (infinite plane so we scroll), G is gold, N is # of turns, P is health that can be restored by potions, U is whether we're hallucinating or not 23:09:14 <alise> S is satiation, L is HP 23:09:16 <cheater99> i know 23:09:20 <alise> w is the gamefield indexed by pairs of y and x 23:09:20 <alise> okay. 23:09:34 <cpressey> square root of minus gamefield 23:09:49 <alise> cpressey: lawl 23:09:53 <cheater99> w contains numbers 23:09:57 <alise> cheater99: charcodes 23:09:58 <alise> ascii 23:10:00 <cheater99> i know but 23:10:05 <cheater99> what do they reprazent? 23:10:09 <oerjan> (incidentally chanterelles are among the "safe" mushrooms in norway) 23:10:11 <alise> the cells at that position 23:10:14 <cheater99> 64 is me 23:10:17 <alise> yes 23:10:20 <alise> @ is 64 in ascii 23:10:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:10:24 <cheater99> i know 23:10:30 <alise> ah 23:10:30 <cheater99> i mean, what do they represent in game? 23:10:34 <alise> % is food 23:10:35 <alise> ! is potion 23:10:38 <alise> $ is gold 23:10:47 <alise> # is inexplicable cube of unbreakable glass that you can't walk through 23:10:50 <alise> Q is a bad guy 23:10:57 <alise> $ python 23:10:58 <alise> ord('x') 23:11:00 <alise> to find the numbers 23:11:02 <alise> that's what i do :P 23:11:04 <alise> 81 is Q, I know that 23:11:09 <alise> oh, and space is just open space 23:11:46 <alise> cheater99: controls: vi keys to move, q to restore health from potions you've picked up (amount you can in parens after HP display), space waits 23:11:48 <cheater99> i know ord. 23:11:53 <alise> right. 23:11:56 <cheater99> hm 23:12:10 <alise> cheater99: and basically all the Qs have to do is move one step closer to the @ 23:12:23 <alise> you could do it more fancy if you're that masochistic, but if you want to play with the monster code that's what i'd do 23:12:28 <alise> ofc they can only walk onto space 23:12:34 <alise> since there's no memory of what's underneath a monster 23:12:38 <alise> so they'd inexplicably suck up gold 23:12:40 <alise> (maybe that's a feature) 23:13:15 <cheater99> yes 23:13:39 <cheater99> maybe numbers > 1000 should be amount of gold + 1000. 23:13:42 <cheater99> + monster. 23:13:59 <cheater99> so you have a countable amount of monsters 23:14:10 <cheater99> and it's a parametrized type!!!!!! 23:14:16 <cheater99> !!!!111 23:14:20 <alise> cheater99: i lost you after "yes" 23:15:03 <cheater99> w[x,y] == A > 1000 -> there is a monster at x,y with A-1000 gold. 23:15:44 <quintopia> anyone know if there is a polynomial time or approximately polynomial time algorithm for finding an embedding of a graph in a plane that minimizes the number of edge intersections? 23:16:16 <alise> cheater99: oh i see 23:16:19 <alise> i was thinking rather 23:16:24 <alise> kill monsters before they suck up all the gold ;P 23:16:25 <alise> *:P 23:16:43 <alise> cheater99: pretty sure the condition to go to the boss will just be having a certain amount of gold and getting to a booth 23:16:44 <cheater99> but gold can be level 23:16:49 <alise> hmm, interesting 23:16:58 <alise> cheater99: still, i think figuring out why the buggers won't move is a good first step 23:17:18 <cpressey> quintopia: sounds NP-complete-ish on first blush, but maybe not 23:18:28 <alise> cheater99: meanwhile I'll get rid of the M function, since we don't need it! hooray for obfuscation! 23:18:39 <quintopia> cpressey: it doesn't seem so obvious to me, but even if it is NP-complete in some parameters it may be polynomial in others. . . 23:19:05 <quintopia> alise: so this is what python looks like... 23:19:22 <oerjan> quintopia: i think it's polynomial if the no. of edge intersections is bounded, no idea otherwise 23:19:36 <cheater99> is w in relation to the center, or to the player? 23:19:59 <alise> cheater99: it's global 23:20:04 <oerjan> (because if there are < k intersections you can just try removing all k-edge sets in turn until you find one that makes the rest planar) 23:20:07 <alise> (0,0) is the centre of everything, regardless of where you are, it's where you started 23:20:15 <alise> cheater99: if you go far enough you'll get to (3945783489579435,3459873459843759435) 23:20:22 <cheater99> ok 23:20:57 <oerjan> but obviously this algorithm is exponential in k 23:21:17 <quintopia> oerjan: so, polynomial in number of vertices and numer of edge intersection? 23:21:17 <quintopia> oerjan: can you point me to an algorithm? 23:21:22 <quintopia> sorry 23:21:30 <quintopia> that was about a 30 second lag in text entry 23:21:44 <quintopia> aka, i typed all that before you gave me an alg 23:21:48 <oerjan> ok :D 23:22:34 <oerjan> oh hm wait there's a subtlety here 23:22:57 <oerjan> adding an edge it may have to intersect _several_ others 23:23:22 <quintopia> sure, but if you start at 1 and work your way up to k, you'll find that case first... 23:23:42 <oerjan> oh hm right 23:23:52 <oerjan> um 23:24:22 <oerjan> ok if you have < k intersections you of course must have < k edges forcing them, so yeah 23:25:59 <quintopia> which brings an interesting question: what's the maximum number of intersections an n node graph can contain? 23:26:21 <quintopia> (assuming that said graph is drawn in a minimal intersection way) 23:26:38 <quintopia> aka, what's the fewest number of intersections the complete graph can contain 23:27:08 <quintopia> (simple graphs only question) 23:27:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:28:02 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 23:28:09 <oerjan> quintopia: oh wait there's another subtlety - removing an edge, then an arbitrary planar embedding of the rest may not be what gives minimal intersections when you add the edge back in 23:28:12 <quintopia> meh, seems like it'll end up being O(n) anyway 23:28:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:28:17 <oerjan> that may be more serious 23:28:30 <quintopia> good point 23:28:34 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 23:29:23 <cpressey> wait 23:29:28 <quintopia> indeed, it may be that no planar embedding of the rest will yield a minimizer 23:29:48 <quintopia> and in fact one needs to find a planar embedding when two edges are removed or something 23:29:51 <cpressey> "if it is NP-complete in some parameters it may be polynomial in others" 23:30:04 <oerjan> quintopia: oh right even that 23:30:06 <cpressey> how do you mean? 23:31:05 <oerjan> cpressey: basically that the restricted problem of looking _just_ at < k edge intersecting graphs may be polynomial to decide for a fixed k even if it is exponential in k 23:31:12 -!- zeotrope has joined. 23:31:30 <quintopia> what oerjan said faster than i could 23:31:53 <quintopia> you can bound some parameter and what remains is polynomially solvable 23:31:56 <cpressey> oh, parameter being # of intersecting edges. ok 23:32:50 <oerjan> cpressey: for example i recall that the problem of deciding whether one graph is isomorphic to a subgraph of another is NP-complete, but if the smaller graph is _fixed_ (or bounded in size) then it's a polynomial problem 23:33:15 <oerjan> in the larger graph 23:33:19 <quintopia> indeed, obviously so 23:34:03 <quintopia> once you know there is a polynomial time algorithm for unifying graphs on the same number of nodes/edges 23:34:03 <cheater99> alise: just so you know, you've been doing it in the wrong place. 23:34:20 <alise> cheater99: oh. goody. 23:34:25 <alise> cheater99: have you fixed it? :P 23:34:44 <quintopia> alise: the bedroom is the wrong place. next time try it in the library. 23:35:18 <cheater99> so spaces are nothing? 23:35:21 <cheater99> or zeros? 23:35:26 <quintopia> (look out for Col. Mustard's lead pipe. you never know where he'll stick it.) 23:35:31 <alise> cheater99: both :P 23:35:35 <alise> sort of 23:35:38 <oerjan> quintopia: um on a _fixed_ number of nodes/edges. unifying with the same but arbitrary is the graph isomorphism problem which is not known to be P (and is one of the most famous problems in NP to be neither known P or NP-complete) 23:35:38 <alise> cheater99: zeroes are uninitialised things 23:35:43 <alise> that will get initialised when they scroll into view 23:35:48 <alise> so no problem with assigning to them 23:35:51 <alise> spaces are open space 23:36:01 <alise> a zero could be anything, you just don't know until you move so that it's in view 23:36:05 <alise> obviously we can't calculate infinite cells 23:36:14 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah yeah yeah, i know what i meant 23:36:46 <Sgeo> alise, about convincing my dad: When I suggested that this was my normal weight, he said something along the lines of "Maybe. Some people are like that" or something to that effect 23:37:46 <quintopia> in particular if the smaller fixed graph has k nodes, there is a trivial n^k*k! alg. for subgraph isomorphism 23:37:50 <quintopia> that's what i meant by obvious 23:38:51 <oerjan> yeah 23:39:02 <quintopia> so anyway, we still don't even know if there's a solution for the original problem with edge intersections bounded 23:39:08 <quintopia> maybe the tubes know 23:41:35 <cheater99> alise: i made them go to the center. :p 23:41:37 <quintopia> okay apparently this is a really really difficult question 23:42:18 <cheater99> and eat through walls :p 23:43:04 <alise> cheater99: yeah you might want to check that it ==32 or ==0 23:43:13 <alise> cheater99: also if you can do that, just s/0,0/x,y/ (or maybe y,x) 23:43:19 <cheater99> i know that 23:43:27 <cheater99> and yea 23:43:29 <alise> cheater99: or if you want it to eat items !=whatever '#' is :P 23:43:34 <oerjan> quintopia: i'd imagine graph drawing software would find such an algorithm useful if it existed 23:43:50 <quintopia> true 23:44:01 <oerjan> (maybe that was how you thought of it?) 23:45:01 <cheater99> is every $ worth the same? 23:45:16 <alise> cheater99: no 23:45:24 <alise> if c==36:G+=randint(5,50) 23:45:40 <alise> interestingly this is not determined until you hit it. totally quantum maan 23:45:47 <cheater99> i was just gonna / for that 23:45:47 <cpressey> what kind of economy is that 23:45:53 <cheater99> but you were faster 23:45:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:46:00 <cheater99> cpressey: the quantum economy!!!!!! 23:46:47 <quintopia> oerjan: i thought of it in the context of the wire-crossing problem. what if the strong hypothesis turns out to be true for some definition of "state"? then, the next obvious question would be "what's the minimum number of crossings required?" 23:47:48 <quintopia> and so i immediately asked "well, how do we even check the number of crossings required for simple machines we already have state diagrams for?" 23:48:52 <quintopia> and I thought it must be a very hard problem, since there is a game about it (gPlanarity) 23:49:18 <oerjan> my intuition on the wire-crossing problem is sort of based on the fact that the 3-coloring problem is NP-complete even for planar graphs. 23:49:54 <quintopia> you intuit that the strong hypothesis holds? 23:50:12 <oerjan> which i think means you very easily can get full computational power without wire-crossing 23:50:19 <quintopia> aha 23:50:39 <quintopia> yes i agree 23:50:51 <quintopia> for a lot of reasons 23:50:59 <quintopia> but that's a interesting one too 23:51:37 <alise> cheater99: I will give you $947595486749567945698456 in exchange for your code. 23:51:50 <cheater99> NOT DONE YET 23:52:43 <alise> cheater99: I hope you are omitting spaces! 23:52:51 <oerjan> cheater99: hint, that's zimbabwean dollars 23:53:03 <pikhq> And another set of hardsubs bites the dust. 23:53:22 <alise> headache vomit bleargh 23:53:36 <quintopia> the other reason i thought of it is exactly what you think: In fizzie's grasp language, programs are graphs, and they might be nonplanar. ais523 wants underlambda to be able to compile to any language, and so it would benefit from the ability to have output grasp programs have as few edge crossings as possible. 23:53:58 <quintopia> (so they are more human readable) 23:54:26 <oerjan> quintopia: found something maybe relevant 23:54:32 <oerjan> "More generally, for any fixed constant k, it is possible to recognize in linear time the k-apex graphs, the graphs in which the removal of some carefully-chosen set of at most k vertices leads to a planar graph.[6] If k is variable, however, the problem is NP-complete." 23:54:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_graph 23:54:57 <quintopia> oerjan: i'd take that much in ZWD, if it still existed. that's actually an appreciable amount of money despite hyperinflation. 23:55:26 <oerjan> yeah but you'd better use it fast 23:56:14 <quintopia> i actually bid on a 20trillion ZWD on ebay once 23:56:17 <quintopia> i didn't win tho 23:56:33 <quintopia> i hear they aren't very high quality bills. just paper. 23:57:04 <oerjan> quintopia: i imagine the second sentence strongly suggests that your problem is NP-complete for variable k too 23:57:11 <quintopia> anyway, this apex graph thing implies that the general problem is probably NP-complete, but it still doesn't answer the fixed k question 23:57:13 <oerjan> er last 23:57:21 * pikhq hates hardcoded subs. 23:57:27 <alise> cheater99 23:57:37 <cheater99> yes 23:57:43 <cheater99> i am coding ai 23:57:44 <cheater99> shh 23:57:45 <alise> koed :| 23:57:49 <alise> haha wat 23:57:55 <alise> can you gimme your code before-ai too just in case it develops sentience 23:57:56 <cheater99> TOTALLY 23:58:01 <alise> i don't want sentience 23:58:03 <cheater99> you will be swooped 23:58:06 <alise> cheater99: also there are no attacks yet... 23:58:06 <cheater99> it is sentient already 23:58:31 <oerjan> yes but is it _sapient_ 23:58:38 <oerjan> important distinction 23:58:52 * oerjan whistles innocently 23:59:00 <quintopia> i doubt it is even sentient 23:59:13 <quintopia> but: is sapience possible without sentience? 23:59:25 <oerjan> i mean it's all good and well with an AI complaining of pain in its diodes, but that's not the same as intelligence 23:59:33 <alise> quintopia: restate that without using the words sapience and sentience