00:10:10 struct z { int a:0.5; int b:0.5; } 00:10:26 it's fair to say I can store the integer 0, and no other integers, in a 00:10:29 ditto b 00:10:55 it's also fair to say I can store the integers 0 and 1 in z, by the rules of C 00:11:28 but casting seems like cheating 00:11:56 anyway, that's as close as i'm going to attempt atm 00:13:34 what i'm thinking is if you can store 6 values in a and 5 values in b then you should be able to store 30 values... you could somehow base it off that idea 00:14:15 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 00:23:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:24:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:24:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 00:25:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:25:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 00:25:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:30:48 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:36:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:37:53 what's this conversation about again? 00:37:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 00:38:12 sounds like something i'm somewhat familiar with, but i can't extract a summary from the scrollback easily :P 00:38:22 fractional bits of information 00:38:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:38:45 well yeah, but i mean, you just decided to talk about that or there was some specific thing (encoding, problem, whatever) that kicked it off? 00:39:03 just talking about fractals 00:39:06 ah 00:39:07 which have fractional dimensions 00:39:25 i should tell you guys about my script to encode binary data in mirc control codes 00:39:27 ;) 00:39:42 it only grows the size by 272% 00:39:45 no :P 00:39:50 which is pretty good considering the previous incarnation was like 400% :P 00:39:59 Why not just base64 it? 00:40:04 because that's visible 00:40:15 the point is to encode data but not clutter the screen with said data 00:40:23 (since the control codes are non printing characters) 00:40:23 myndzi: wouldn't work here alas, lame +c ;) 00:40:28 indeed 00:40:33 My system will display control codes. 00:40:34 how i hate that mode 00:40:35 ;) 00:40:41 pikhq: i'm sorry for your system 00:40:41 :P 00:41:03 anyway, it's the encoding that's interesting not its use (i haven't really made use of it since i never finished the script it was intended for) 00:41:05 pikhq: not mirc control codes 00:41:06 colours etc. 00:41:13 alise: Aaah. 00:41:18 maybe i should have said formatting codes 00:41:23 myndzi: Are mIRC control codes using the 8th bit of the 7-bit ASCII? 00:41:26 control was a poorly chosen word 00:41:30 nope 00:41:32 they are all <32 00:41:58 incidentally, that pesky 8th bit gives some fun results on misconfigured linux clients when used in conjunction with unicode ;) 00:42:09 invert/italics is tab, fun fun 00:42:20 some irc clients will pass the utf-8 data as-is but you can hide C2 control codes in valid UTF-8 values 00:42:23 My system will render many of those using inverse-color and the ^F^O^O notation, IIRC. 00:42:37 reverse (invert?) is 22 00:42:43 italics is new, but i thought it was not 9 00:42:53 hmm 00:42:53 anyway i'm not using mirc 7 yet so i don't have it included in my encoding 00:42:55 well ^I is something 00:42:58 konversation thinks it's italics 00:43:02 which causes ais523 no end of trouble 00:43:07 ^i is tab 00:43:14 on mirc 6.5 at least 00:43:14 yes 00:43:17 but at least one client thinks it's italics 00:43:21 mirc isn't the only client to implement its own stuff 00:43:30 true. 00:43:32 virc(?) has rgb color codes 00:43:39 That said, using control codes is pretty silly in general. 00:43:39 maybe xircon, i forget which 00:43:49 well, yeah, but they can come in useful sometimes i guess 00:44:01 And evil if it's XON or XOFF. :P 00:44:02 my rule of thumb is to avoid them in "public" 00:44:23 not as evil as sending telnet codes that do fun things to people using telnet :) 00:44:41 or using my utf-8 trick to issue arbitrary ansi codes to someone's terminal 00:44:41 hehe 00:44:53 anyway, what i WAS talking about was my encoding 00:45:06 originally i just took the easy way out and used ^kN,NN or ^kNN 00:45:12 for 3-digit decimal or 2-digit decimal values 00:45:18 this is obviously not very efficient 00:45:19 My rule of thumb is that all text on the Internet should be valid UTF-8, and normalised using NFC. 00:45:28 myndzi: See if that trick works on my terminal, or if PuTTY will remove overlong encodings (if that is what you are doing?) 00:45:32 I don't know 00:45:49 zzo38: i'll look it up, lemme finish typing 00:46:01 for one, mirc has more than just ^k 00:46:18 and for another, ^k has like 7 valid distinct uses 00:46:36 i wound up creating a script to find how many permutations of valid color code sequences could be had from N bytes 00:46:44 color/formatting code, i mean 00:46:59 Normal ASCII escape codes will just be reformatted by PHIRC, though 00:47:09 one byte could be any of the single byte values, or you could have 2, 3, 4, 6, or 7 byte color codes 00:47:35 i did that wrong... 2, 3, 5, 6 00:47:40 Also my client deliberately does not parse IRC color codes 00:47:41 anyway 00:47:59 then i found one that came close to a similar amount of values as a binary bit border 00:48:11 and learned that i could get an extra bit if i used it twice 00:48:25 zzo38: Reasonable decision, actually. 00:48:30 so it's pretty close to in synch with binary, would take a lot of extra work to approach the limit which isn't much less than 272% 00:48:43 so now the values depend on the codes, as well as the pattern of their ordering 00:48:55 it's pretty neat :) 00:49:00 ok, the utf-8 thing 00:49:24 (It just displays color codes using the notation it normally uses for control characters, which is uppercase letter, black on magenta background) 00:49:56 it's C1 not C2, silly me 00:49:58 It will parse some control codes used commonly on IRC, though, if /SET FORMAT + 00:50:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#C1_.28ISO_8859_and_Unicode.29 00:50:21 I don't know whether C1 control codes are enabled in PuTTY 00:50:22 any of those can be embedded as the second byte of a utf-8 sequence 00:50:31 Or, if there is a way to turn them off 00:50:37 most irc clients screen out terminal codes but they let this one pass because they see it as valid utf-8 00:50:53 that's what linux foos get for bitching about people fucking up their screen... eventually i get curious and find what happened and then they get exploited ;) 00:52:00 so i guess 155 is the ansi code thing 00:52:10 194 155 followed by an ansi sequence should do it 00:52:46 Is there a mode to disable C1 escape codes? 00:52:50 ›30;40m black on black(?) 00:52:56 (PHIRC doesn't actually know anything about UTF-8) 00:53:02 dunno, guess it would depend on your terminal configuration 00:53:08 zzo38: Well, you could normalise your Unicode. 00:53:12 then you should be fine, since it'll only see the C1 code and block it 00:53:45 myndzi: That did not change the color. I can see a block followed by "30;40m" and the text 00:53:57 yeah 00:53:59 So I can see it is fine 00:54:06 myndzi: ^[30;40m 00:54:08 i might have done it wrong, i kinda f orget 00:54:18 but anyway, that symbol is not the same as ctrl+[ 00:54:22 Weird. 00:54:38 it is a C1 code that can also be used to introduce ansi codes 00:54:39 You normally do escape and a left square bracket, that is the CSI code 00:54:49 i successfully spoofed my nick to a vulnerable client while testing once 00:54:51 In C1 though, CSI code is a single character 00:54:59 yeah 00:55:39 i always wondered why it was esc then [ when i was a kid 00:55:42 Moral of the story: actually parse your damned text right. :P 00:55:45 but now i know it is because esc is ctrl+[ 00:55:54 pikhq: well that's the thing, the irc client IS parsing the text correctly 00:55:58 but 00:56:15 the irc client thinks the terminal can display utf-8 00:56:21 when the terminal actually cannot or is not configured to 00:57:18 myndzi: (Esc+[)3 is... not a valid UTF-8 sequence. 00:57:49 that's not what i sent 00:57:57 i sent 194 155, which is valid utf-8 00:58:10 but 155 is also C1 for CSI introducer 00:58:15 Ah, yeah. It is. 00:58:40 reminds me sorta of another fun bug i found once 00:58:44 It is up to the terminal program to parse UTF-8 codes (or whatever other encoding it is configured to use), so if a malformed UTF-8 code is sent with a ASCII control character immediately after a UTF-8 begin code, PHIRC will convert it to escape codes before the terminal sees it 00:58:55 certain versions of psybnc were vulnerable to a weird thing that let you basically spoof messages from the irc server 00:59:32 zzo38: ...wat? 00:59:50 that seems like undesirable behavior; i mean, it is a legit utf-8 code and should not be interpreted as a control code 00:59:51 You tried C1 codes, now try sending an overlong encoding of the C0 escape codes, to see if this program will block it. 01:00:13 i don't know what you are referring to by that 01:00:21 myndzi: What's the actual Unicode code point for that combination? 01:00:37 it might be undefined haha, i don't know, but it still shouldn't be taken to be an escape code 01:00:38 myndzi: But multi-byte UTF-8 codes never contain 7-bit ASCII codes. 01:00:51 myndzi: Unicode code point: the number it decodes to. 01:00:55 it's not 7-bit ascii 01:00:57 The high bit is set to indicate it is a UTF-8 code. 01:00:59 oh 01:01:01 it would be umm 01:01:17 Doesn't matter if it's not assigned. :) 01:01:37 10011011 01:01:43 it actually decodes to 155 01:01:50 U+155? 01:01:59 guess so 01:02:20 i don't know if it was important that it do so anymore 01:02:37 Erm, no; the Unicode code points are usually listed in hex. Anyways. 01:02:50 (Sometimes a null character is encoded using overlong encoding so that you can have embedded nulls in a string that is used in a program that uses null terminated strings) 01:04:02 That's U+9B. "CONTROL SEQUENCE INTRODUCER". 01:04:43 oh, right 01:04:46 sorry :P 01:04:48 So: the client should *probably* be removing that anyways. 01:04:59 i didn't know that it actually encoded to that value haha 01:05:10 but i guess you could change it to whatever you wanted 01:05:15 by mangling the first few bits 01:05:19 the first byte could be many things 01:05:23 Apparently, 0x00 through 0xFF are from Latin-1. 01:05:36 makes sense 01:05:42 i think i knew that, actually 01:05:56 i'm not sure why i chose 194, maybe i forgot what the bug was about 01:06:03 it could be that the client was just decoding it and not blocking it 01:06:32 zzo38: i see... sorta. by overlong, you mean a utf-8 value that doesn't need 3 bytes but uses 3, for example? 01:06:47 like 01:06:51 11000000 10000000 01:07:17 <-null? 01:07:20 -!- Kordalien has joined. 01:07:24 it didn't decode here haha 01:08:21 Got rendered as though it were Latin-1 here. 01:08:34 (typical for handling invalid UTF-8) 01:18:08 same 01:44:13 I just got a shaded block, it is what this program does for invalid codes, I think 01:44:36 myndzi: Yes that is what I mean by overlong encodings 02:09:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:27:26 Hmm 02:27:37 On the one hand, the system didn't just roll over and give me someone else's grades 02:28:07 On the other hand, it did display an error message with a stack trace, and my understanding is that that's the wrong way to configure web services 02:42:17 Axioms! 02:47:09 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:55 I don't know if this is accurate, but I just described Objective-C as a mashup of Smalltalk and C, and that the whole is less than the sum of its parts 02:48:04 * Sgeo just added "(Note: I never learned Objective-C, so that last thought is possibly unfounded)" 02:48:58 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 02:53:36 Sgeo: objective-c is an alright language. 02:53:44 it's not creative but it's well-designed 02:53:53 and it inherits smalltalk's excellent object model 02:54:38 TBH, I've kind of fallen in love with CLOS-style object models 02:54:48 * Sgeo prepares to be slapped 02:55:55 You have never fallen in love with anything. 02:56:06 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:56:09 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----### 02:56:32 You make sideways glances at the cleavage of languages over the period of a few days. :P 02:59:43 *sidelong 03:02:27 "Do you have any other interests besides programming?" "I like to read and watch fiction" 03:03:01 * Sgeo is in full-on giggle mode 03:03:07 It's funny because to me the word fiction means novels because I don't know what words mean 03:03:55 No, I'm laughing because it's a very general statement that applies to pretty much everyone 03:04:40 Well, not to illiterate persons before TV I guess 03:06:01 Sgeo: Then it's going to be s/read/listen to/ 03:06:30 Plays used to be popular entertainment, you know. As well as story-telling. 03:10:43 pikhq: I just wish we had Hamlet on the TV every day. :P 03:12:07 Um, WTF 03:13:27 Why is webchat.freenode.net down? 03:14:40 Because you touch yourself at night. 03:15:30 * Sgeo feels sorry for anyone who won't allow themselves to 03:15:52 STOP IT! STOP TURNING EVERYTHING SEXUAL 03:16:27 ... 03:16:27 dude 03:16:32 Gregor's joke is meant to be sexual 03:16:33 it's a cliche 03:16:37 I know 03:16:39 you ... you just ... lose 03:16:49 But last time Gregor said something like that, and I responded, you called me out 03:16:58 I ♥ clichés. 03:17:00 And Unicode. 03:17:08 Definitely ♥ Unicode. 03:17:34 I ? Unicode too *ducks* 03:17:53 I ♥ the compose key 03:17:56 I ♥ diæresis marks and ligatures. I can never think of a word with a diæresis when I need one ... 03:18:05 … 03:18:24 ... 03:18:32 ……… 03:18:42 Good way to tell if you're using fixed-width or not 03:19:08 oerjan: Fix your encoding you fool. 03:19:20 pikhq: No! It is integral that oerjan sees Unicode as ?. 03:19:23 It is part of our culture. 03:19:24 Gregor: You naïve simpleton. 03:19:25 pikhq: Fix your sarcasm-detector you fool. 03:19:26 Our culture is a shabby one. 03:19:39 oerjan does actually see unicode as ? 03:19:51 pikhq: I can never think of a /contextuälly-relevant/ diæresis when I need one. 03:20:02 Gregor: ⁵ 03:20:13 STOP USING DIAERESES ON WORDS THAT DON'T EITHER HAVE HYPHENS IN THEM OR ARE OFTEN WRITTEN WITH ONE 03:20:20 presumably pikhq was meaning that oerjan should fix the encoding he *sees*, not sends, and Gregor misinterpreted this 03:20:25 the more you know ****************=> 03:20:30 wait 03:20:33 ===========================* 03:20:34 there 03:20:49 What a big-ass encyclopedia. What a big ass-encyclopedia. What a big assencyclopædia 03:21:20 What a bigassencyclopædia. 03:21:29 The Encyclopedia Copronomicon 03:22:05 *Coppro-nomicon 03:22:10 X-D 03:22:10 ... 03:22:13 Coppro-nomic-on 03:22:16 coppro plays nomic 03:22:19 OMG SONCPIRACY 03:22:22 ... 03:22:25 son c piracy 03:22:28 son coppro piracy 03:22:28 OMG SONGPIRACY 03:22:31 coppro is someone's son 03:22:36 coppro is a member of the pirate party 03:22:39 We don't know that. 03:22:42 OMG THE COINCIDENCES 03:22:49 ITS SO METAPHYSIC 03:23:02 Gregor: Yes... yes we do :P 03:23:42 through long and tortured logic 03:25:33 I wonder if Eliezer Yudkowsky writing fanfiction is somehow using my brain power as CPU for the seed AI he's designed. 03:25:40 *Yudkowsky's fanfiction 03:39:50 http://www.gnu.org/software/plotutils/ : GNU totally does not name things in intentionally ambiguous ways. 03:40:14 Groan. 03:41:35 -!- augur has joined. 03:42:33 Plotu tils! Plo Tutils! 03:42:52 alise: Tutils of the Palestinian Liberation Organization? 03:42:56 Yes. 03:42:58 :o 03:43:04 IRA Tutils! 03:44:29 they're quite IRAte 03:46:17 IRA Tutus 03:51:58 don't mess with my tutus 04:01:30 -!- wareya has joined. 04:01:45 Hmm, I only need to do one problem for this chapter 04:01:53 One of the choices is knapsack stuff 04:01:57 How hard could it be? 04:02:50 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:02:58 NP? 04:03:04 (EVERYONE: DO NOT NITPICK JOKES) 04:03:15 ("HOW HARD" "NP" IS FUNNY, NO MATTER -- SO SHUT UP) 04:03:24 (DO NOT SAY "BUT NP-HARD") 04:04:01 Well, technically I made no errors anyway. A joke well-executed. 04:07:45 My idea of a way of UTF-8 parsing: [Step 1] Control characters [Step 2] Decode numbers [Step 3] Unicode to unicode conversion [Step 4] Render output 04:08:07 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:08:38 -!- mtve has joined. 04:08:49 alise: except for the error of a paranoid implosion? 04:09:55 oerjan: Implicatory! Verisimilitude was EXTINCT; by then, at least. 04:10:51 implicatorial sesquipedalism 04:14:32 oerjan: Well, aren't we the orthodontist! Stricken, quickly, he fell; his loquaciousness now evaporated, he graduated losing, summa cum laude, and expired. 04:16:38 * oerjan straightens alise's teeth with the saucepan ===\__/ 04:18:37 oerjan: I created your being; post hoc ergo propter hoc axiomatic, fallacies embedded into the velvet that defines you, it; machinery whirrs and purrs and ASCII saucepans confers. 04:18:44 -!- alise has left (?). 04:18:46 -!- alise has joined. 04:18:47 Whoops. 04:20:44 All homework done 04:21:15 * oerjan confers with his saucepan ===\__/ *OUCH* 04:22:29 Good thing about tex4ht: Makes fairly-nice HTML output from LaTeX. 04:22:42 Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ... 04:24:22 Are there C compilers that cannot turn off trigraphs inside of a string? If there are some common ones, it might be necessary to add a option to Enhanced CWEB to tell it to change ? in a string to \? (and also to replace high characters with their escape sequence, if that might also be necessary) 04:26:56 Fecking trigraphs X_X 04:27:05 Most C compilers have the ability to turn off trigraphs /entirely/ 04:28:44 (In GCC they're off unless you ask for them) 04:29:07 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he doesn't get in trouble for the ticket he just submitted 04:29:18 "I recently received an error message. The cause isn't important (I was experimenting 04:29:18 to see if I could do something I shouldn't be able to, but was unable to do it),..." 04:29:42 "I'm a white-hat hacker." 04:29:45 "He's a hacker, lock 'im up!" 04:29:46 Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ... 04:29:51 ... and I still can't find anywhere to put the body. 04:30:44 o.O 04:30:47 How did he die? 04:30:52 Sgeo: Doesn't say. 04:31:01 Well, "unexpectedly" 04:31:12 How often does somebody young enough to be writing tex4ht die expectedly though :P 04:35:41 He died from latex poisoning. 04:35:48 * alise runs to #ubuntu -> 04:35:53 OERJAN CAN'T CATCH M-- 04:37:30 If needed, you could create a TeX macro package that allows output to both DVI and HTML (and possibly also XML and other formats too if required) 04:42:32 u run thru #ubuntu 04:44:48 zzo38: Yes, that's what tex4ht is :P (AFAIK) 04:47:57 Gregor: I don't think so. (And I think tex4ht is designed for LaTeX, anyways) What I meant is writing a macro package that you use commands in it that can make it work for both DVI and HTML and other formats output. 04:50:58 Gregor: So if you don't use LaTeX, watch out! 04:53:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 04:54:55 Ah, trigraphs. The only thing worse than digraphs. 04:55:21 Actually. Digraphs aren't *that* bad. 04:55:28 Trigraphs are just head-poundingly awful. 04:55:59 TeX trigraphs are very useful, even though C trigraphs are bad and useless. 04:56:22 C digraphs are handled during tokenization, unlike trigraphs. 04:56:26 The only thing worse and monographs. 04:56:28 Making them automatically an improvement. 04:56:52 (yes, trigraphs are basically done via sed before compilation) 04:56:59 s/and/are/ X_X 04:57:36 s/are/is/? Idonno, that whole sentence was grammatically dubious. 04:57:44 Also, nonsense. 04:58:08 Yes, I do suppose C digraphs are better than C trigraphs in that way. 04:58:59 Digraphs at least don't cause completely unexpected parses. 05:00:16 But TeX trigraphs are a bit different, because you can use them for many purposes and you can even change how trigraphs are parsed by changing the category codes. 05:03:12 For example, the utfeight.tex program will convert numbers to hex and then make them into trigraphs send to output file, and then input them again (this time TeX will parse the trigraphs), in order to make definitions for all active characters which can be used as part of UTF-8 codes. 05:06:16 lovely quote from wikipedia 05:06:20 "more realistically, CERN's Large Hadron Collider is the subject of a CERN-produced rap video" 05:06:46 I want to make a variant of TeX in one day when I get a chance to do so. What programs would I need to do so? One change I want to add is to make a new trigraph which forces the next character to be treated as a certain character code. For example ^^xd? will make a ? which is a active character. 05:07:51 Another change I want to make is removing the \outer command. 05:09:02 And adding new kind of definitions, such as \idef \progdef \catdef 05:09:23 augur: more realistic than what? :P 05:09:49 i dont know! 05:09:50 what does \outer do zzo38? 05:10:04 more realistic than Stephen Hawking MCing maybe 05:10:22 alise: The \outer command prevents a command from occuring as part of a macro expansion. 05:11:00 (It can be worked around using \write and \input although I think it is better that the \outer command is not there at all) 05:11:49 Another thing I want is to allow \long to be prepended to the use of a macro instead of only allowing it prepending a definition of a macro. 05:16:25 GAHAHAHAHAH 05:16:30 NEED SWAP SPACE 05:16:35 * Sgeo cries 05:18:18 And a way to read in a list, box, and tokens, in ways that they can then be processed by other TeX codes. And a command \glueset to access the glue set value of a box. 05:21:02 Goodnight. Bye. 05:21:08 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:31:36 Such as: \convbox or something like that. 05:47:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:59:05 Trigraphs in TeX are even usable to create trigraphs, example: \message{^^5e^5e} --> ^ 06:00:00 \message{^^5e^5e^21} --> ! 06:05:16 -!- Slereah has joined. 06:34:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:42:12 -!- augur has changed nick to Etruscans. 06:43:04 -!- Etruscans has changed nick to augur. 06:57:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:11:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:11:46 -!- augur has joined. 07:48:54 Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party 07:54:11 What do you have to do if you are a member? 07:54:23 nothing 07:55:06 What is the meaning of being a member, then? 07:55:18 though I think they're going to try to have me chair the online meetings on the basis that I seem to be good at this thin (they're not the online ones. The president of the math society at waterloo wanted me installed as speaker after she'd known me for a week and a half) 07:55:24 to indicate support 07:55:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:40 -!- augur has joined. 07:56:15 So maybe in future...? 07:57:01 coppro: O, did you ever read mathNEWS? 07:58:23 zzo38: how do you know of mathNEWS? 07:59:15 zzo38: also, being a member carries benefits that you might expect of any similar organization - I have a vote 07:59:19 I don't remember where/when I first figured out about it, or how. 07:59:47 you've never been to UW? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:05 I have never been to UW. 08:01:46 anyways, yes, I know of mathNEWS. I even wrote two articles in the most recent issue and contributed a significant portion of the profQUOTES 08:02:02 OK 08:04:13 What did you write about? 08:05:38 (Actually, I found a copy of the articles now and I think I know which one you might have written) 08:06:38 which? 08:07:19 also, lol someone who reads the website.. 08:07:36 I assume that you know then about the E is for Idiot issue? 08:08:15 Did you write the article titled "Reminder: Games Nights Exist"? (I guess based on the information I have) 08:08:37 correct, that was one 08:08:58 that one should also be obvious if you /whois me 08:09:30 Yes I did use the WHOIS command. I also saw "coppro!~scshunt" so I guess, and then did WHOIS to check more 08:11:27 I do not know about the E is for Idiot issue. What is the date for that issue? 08:14:15 dunno 08:14:26 in it there was an article entitled E is for Idiot, that got them sued 08:14:37 because apparently it was defamatory 08:15:04 they settled on posting an apology to their website, which they consider doing almost nothing because the website is not designed to be useful 08:15:12 and so virtually no one reads it 08:16:15 incidentally, pencil policy is hilariou 08:16:17 *hilarious 08:20:50 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:27:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:30:28 I have a question about your opinion about code generation in Enhanced CWEB using interpreted C codes. The question is what commands you would find useful to be built-in that can be accessed by C interpreter, for code generation? 08:31:24 recompiling a specific function 08:32:17 Can you give an example? 08:32:54 well, suppose I have a function and change its definition; it would be nice to tell the compiler to recompile it 08:33:01 for simple functions, even from within the interpreter itself 08:36:29 I don't quite understand. Can you give a more specific example of what you are trying to do? 08:48:08 The C compiler does not work that way? Enhanced CWEB cannot change the way the C compiler works! 09:06:53 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:10:30 -!- lament has joined. 09:11:42 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:26:43 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:34:35 -!- zzo38 has quit. 10:03:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:07:54 15:25:06 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator ← does lambdabot not do logs? 10:08:02 @type log 10:08:03 forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a 10:08:34 Phantom_Hoover, um, anything wrong with using a calculator still? 10:09:08 Well, it requires that you reach for the calculator and hit buttons on that, then type the result into the channel. 10:09:43 Phantom_Hoover, he didn't say he meant a physical calculator. Could have been dc or such 10:10:09 Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 10:10:36 Phantom_Hoover, hah, well some other computer based calculator then 10:12:03 Phantom_Hoover, you know that bc was traditionally implemented in dc? 10:12:12 I do. 10:12:26 Phantom_Hoover, and bc has log 10:12:32 while I can't find it in dc 10:12:38 this scares me 10:12:46 As part of an extra library which IIRC is written in bc. 10:13:25 Phantom_Hoover, still, writing an infix calculator in bc is probably indicative of multiple things in DSM 10:13:45 err 10:13:47 "in dc" 10:13:49 of course 10:14:12 I doubt profoundly that bc was ever written in raw dc. 10:14:23 Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean then 10:14:25 dc doesn't have anything near the I/O capabilities. 10:15:05 from wikipedia: 10:15:07 As an example, here is an implementation of the Euclidean algorithm to find the GCD: 10:15:07 dc -e '??[dSarLa%d0 dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 XD 10:15:53 ? doesn't read a line of input, it executes a line of input. 10:16:02 hm 10:16:06 it seems to work anyawy 10:16:08 anyway* 10:16:20 So if you have ?P it doesn't echo the line, it executes it and prints the top of the stack. 10:16:35 it doesn't have ?P, it has P? 10:16:44 but hm 10:16:47 Same differene. 10:16:52 *difference 10:17:29 not at all, the P prints a prompt there 10:17:56 The point is that dc doesn't actually have a command to read a line of input and push it onto the stack. 10:18:30 hm okay 10:19:09 Typing "Hello, world!" into ?P just spits out a load of errors. 10:20:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:20:16 Numbers push themselves when evaluated, so you can use it for them if you don't mind exposing your program to unbuffered code. 10:21:15 hm 10:21:51 I would think bc would use dc behind the scenes when calculating things, and do parsing and such in C. 10:22:20 * Phantom_Hoover → stuff 10:22:22 or some other language 10:22:26 such as shell 10:33:38 -!- Harpyon has joined. 10:46:04 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 10:54:57 -!- tombom has joined. 11:01:38 -!- Mechnoob has joined. 11:01:40 -!- Mechnoob has quit (Client Quit). 11:05:35 -!- Harpyon has joined. 11:24:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:29:03 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 12:29:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:31:29 -!- Harpyon has joined. 12:34:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:42:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: ...). 13:01:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:02:51 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:23:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:29:06 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:51:17 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:54:33 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:56:19 -!- alise has joined. 14:57:42 -!- olsner has joined. 15:02:24 23:48:54 Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party 15:02:24 pretty sure he meant the male part 15:02:28 23:54:11 What do you have to do if you are a member? 15:02:28 23:54:23 nothing 15:02:28 23:55:06 What is the meaning of being a member, then? 15:02:28 lol 15:03:12 23:59:47 you've never been to UW? 15:03:12 i think he's in high school 15:04:11 coppro: this "mathNEWS" is hopelessly shoddy -- 15:04:13 "Indeed, vi is nothing more than a wrapper script for the command ex, which is itself a wrapper for ed" 15:04:37 it is, though 15:04:43 no it isn't 15:04:45 so i'm not sure what u mean 15:04:53 OF COURSE IT IS 15:04:58 and ed is a wrapper for cat 15:04:59 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l $(which vi) 15:05:00 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi 15:05:00 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi 15:05:00 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:00 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:00 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 754744 2010-04-16 14:33 /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:02 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/ex 15:05:04 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/ex -> /etc/alternatives/ex 15:05:06 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ex 15:05:08 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/ex -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny 15:05:10 ex is a *symlink* to vi on most systems. 15:05:16 not a wrapper script. and not the other way around 15:05:19 yes 15:05:22 that's because they did 15:05:24 and furthermore ex is an entirely separate editor, nothing to do with ed, merely inspired by it 15:05:25 mv ex vi 15:05:41 also they did mv ex ed 15:05:46 cheater99: if you're trying to troll, it's incredibly boring and obvious; if you're actually serious, you're just stupid 15:05:53 (if you're trying to make a joke, it isn't funny) 15:06:00 how could you ever think i was serious with that? 15:07:05 i'm trying to reconstruct the thought process 15:07:19 well, you've said similarly silly things before :) 15:07:21 was it "wow, that guy cheater99 TOTALLY doesn't know the difference between ed and ex!" 15:07:22 ? 15:07:30 for a second :P 15:07:37 trolled! 15:07:37 also, i'm *fairly* sure they're just 15:07:39 :P 15:07:43 (a) using a lenient definition of "script", and 15:07:57 (b) apparently not required to actually look at ex to decide what it does 15:08:12 no, they're just trolling too. 15:08:17 (The whole article is an unfunny joke; it provides an "implementation" of ed in Python that just reads input up until a "q" and outputs ?.) 15:08:24 also, vim is just a wrapper around vi with some added bash scripts 15:08:26 I'm fairly sure the introductory sentences are serious. 15:08:32 and emacs is a wrapper around screen and vim. 15:09:06 and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp 15:09:24 however, lisp is a wrapper around haskell, and haskell is a wrapper around erlang 15:09:29 no one has solved that problem yet 15:11:40 erlang is also a wrapper around BANCStar 15:13:38 coppro: ok i take it back, prof quotes more than makes up for it (i will not support your insipid logotype capitalisation) 15:13:58 hmm i seem to use insipid to mean much more than it actually does :) 15:15:16 "I was giving a tour of the observatory one day and ended up explaining how the stars are actually like the Sun, just really far away. It was great to catch people up from the 15th century." ;; i have had to do this more than i would like 15:15:36 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:21:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:23:31 oerjanerer 15:23:47 * oerjan oerjaneers 15:27:49 alise: see, you got the hang of it 15:28:45 `addquote Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:28:51 haha 15:29:08 Huh, apparently MI2's soundtrack WAS actually designed for MT-32. 15:29:16 Maybe it's just the intro music that sounds a bit odd. 15:30:36 roland mt-32? 15:30:38 really? 15:30:45 No output. 15:30:50 cheater99: sure, just like the MI1 soundtrack 15:30:55 and all the Space Quest soundtracks 15:31:03 oh, i was thinking mission impossible 2 15:31:05 not monkey island 15:31:06 lawl 15:31:09 yeah, i know about monkey island 15:31:13 dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 Space Quest -- was it 5? -- even showed "SPACE QUEST" or something on the MT-32's LCD. 15:31:20 I have an actual MT-32. 15:31:24 haha nice 15:31:25 Unfortunately: hard to wire up to a computer. Very hard. 15:31:31 do you have a roland sound canvas? 15:31:34 why is it hard? 15:31:35 And the analogue background noise is endearing but noticeable. 15:31:41 cheater99: no, I don't; and because it just has audio ports 15:31:53 and not much wants to send the right stuff down the line... 15:32:22 `addquote dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 cheater99: I *have* got it to play MIDI -- but in actual audio software only. 15:32:41 hey wait HackEgo is broken :( 15:32:45 `echo hi 15:32:51 hi 15:32:51 oerjan: no, just very slow 15:32:55 give it a few minutes 15:33:07 alise: but it answered No output above :( 15:33:09 alise: still don't know why it's difficult to wire it up? 15:33:20 oerjan: hmm 15:33:27 cheater99: I explained: 15:33:33 cheater99: It has no computery ports, only audio ports. 15:33:34 233| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 Getting software to send MT-32 data down the audio line is non-trivial. 15:33:47 ah just random failure 15:33:54 `quote 232 15:33:59 232| It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! WRONG 8 WEEKS 15:34:05 alise: ohh 15:34:06 cheater99: (Especially the special remapping ones where they change the entire sound, which a *lot* of games do.) 15:34:08 alise: ok got it 15:34:15 `addquote Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:34:16 cheater99: I'm sure it's *possible*, but you sure as heck can't get ScummVM to do it. 15:34:22 233| Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:34:22 Which is basically the only reason to do it. 15:34:38 -!- Harpyon has joined. 15:34:46 -!- Harpyon has quit (Client Quit). 15:34:53 wait now it _reused_ the number D: 15:34:54 cheater99: Pirated MT-32 ROMs (or you could *manually* remove them... !) plus the emulator does a very good job. 15:35:00 Still doesn't sound analogue though. 15:35:01 `quote 233 15:35:01 oerjan: when? 15:35:05 233| Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:35:27 alise: 233 for both Vorpal and last Phantom_Hoover quote 15:35:37 `addquote dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 oerjan: eek :D 15:35:53 234| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 whew 15:36:12 Gregor: HackEgo's quote database has some _weird_ bugs 15:36:14 `quote 231 15:36:16 231| pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that 15:36:18 `quote 232 15:36:22 232| It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! WRONG 8 WEEKS 15:36:25 `quote 233 15:36:36 233| Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM. 15:36:38 `quote 234 15:36:41 `quote 12/13 15:36:44 i think HackEgo may have something in the DSM 15:36:45 No output. 15:36:47 234| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 oerjan: duplicate quote 15:36:55 i suggest we start supporting rational numbers in the primary key. 15:36:57 234 is 15:36:58 `help 15:36:59 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 15:37:11 let's see if i remember how to use revert 15:37:18 alise: um how so? 15:37:27 oh wait 15:37:29 you're right 15:37:35 i thought your addquote line was actually one of my quote requests 15:37:39 alise: HackEgo _overwrote_ the original 233 it seems 15:37:46 :D 15:38:19 it looks like all the quotes finally got in, anyhow 15:38:28 (FOR NOW) 15:40:44 the end of LeChuck's Revelation is sweet 15:44:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:46:04 and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp <-- ITYM PROLOG. sheesh don't you know ANYTHING? 15:46:21 :( 15:46:28 Dear whatever is causing window borders etc. to just die: Fuck you 15:46:37 please don't hit me mommy :( 15:46:46 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----### 15:46:48 Sgeo: on ubuntu? 15:46:53 ALSO, I'M NOT YOUR MOMMY 15:47:04 Yes 15:47:10 Sgeo: it's fucking compiz 15:47:17 the worst piece of software in existence 15:47:31 compiz is terribly designed but i have an intel gpu so it just works :P 15:47:38 same 15:47:42 but it still gave me that shit 15:47:46 as for sgeo 15:47:46 ha ha 15:47:58 ok so i probably just haven't given it enough time :p 15:48:13 * Sgeo likes his visual effects 15:48:23 Not enough to deal with this, though 15:48:32 Sgeo: oh, what? you have the wobbly resize and everything turned on? 15:48:35 LOL 15:48:36 * Sgeo wonders if this is also somehow related to Firefox crashing 15:48:40 No, just the defaults 15:48:47 Normal or whatever's above that 15:48:54 Extra 15:48:55 Normal 15:49:11 then the only visual effect is... minimising and restoring 15:49:29 well, shadows and non-active window semitransparency 15:49:30 but that's it 15:49:32 (titlebar) 15:49:41 (barely noticeable effect) 15:49:50 My terminal stopped being transparent! 15:49:58 Meh, I'll live 15:50:00 ... 15:50:04 TRANSPARENT TERMINALS ARE THE WORST FUCKING IDEA EVER 15:50:10 like translucent fucking paper 15:50:22 hope you feel cool 15:50:25 "Roland MT-32 and CM-32L control and pcm roms for use with DOSBox and Munt" ;; yesplz 15:50:35 but but then you can spy on people when you're reading! 15:54:18 [[The next thing we have is "Movies That Don't Have Sequels" Movie Night! We're showing Pirates of the Caribbean and The Matrix.]] 15:57:34 * oerjan tends to see Highlander included in such lists too 15:57:45 I DON'T WANT THE FUCKING SPECIAL EDITION I WANT THE ORIGINAL OCTOBER 1990 SOMI 15:59:10 * Sgeo only saw approx. the ending of The Matrix, and the two sequels 15:59:45 seriously? 15:59:52 you've watched two terrible movies 15:59:55 and spoiled a really good one 15:59:57 fail 16:07:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:07:29 Hi :-) 16:08:26 the ho 16:09:04 *de 16:11:30 AAAH 16:11:39 oerjan: relatedly, Games That Don't Have More Than N Sequels 16:11:40 Notifications are no longer semitransparent 16:11:45 Sgeo: OH NO 16:11:56 * oerjan shoots at the zombies following Sgeo 16:12:01 Games That Don't Have More Than 2 (or 1 if you're boring and anal or Ron Gilbert) Sequels: Monkey Island 16:12:13 And they're completely invisible when the cursor is over them 16:12:17 Games That Probably Don't Have More Than 1 Sequel For Someone: Fallout 16:12:19 Sgeo: SO WHAT 16:15:26 -!- Kordalien has joined. 16:19:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:19:58 http://i.imgur.com/zPEGs.jpg 16:20:49 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:30:42 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 16:31:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:31:28 It's a magic dance magic dance magic dance 16:31:34 * Sgeo starts singing 16:31:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:33:11 It's just starting to rain here :-( 16:37:34 Remember... 16:37:34 Wherever you go... 16:37:35 On sea or on land, 16:37:35 You can't ever hide 16:37:35 From Largo LeGrande! 16:40:56 234| dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0 `quote 231 16:41:13 orejan completely fails 16:41:20 I did not claim it was easier to read 16:41:23 231| pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that 16:41:25 I quoted wikipedia saying so 16:41:40 yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit 16:42:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:43:52 http://miwiki.net/images/Mi2se_comparison.jpg ;; what did the redraw do to the poor man's nose... 16:50:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:50:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:52:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:52:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:22:33 Vorpal: the quote is funnier that way, stop complaining :) 17:26:26 -!- impomatic has left (?). 17:29:01 Which is more line-noise-y? J or dc? 17:29:34 neither are line-noisey. 17:29:37 you have clearly never seen line noise 17:29:49 also, J code is more comprehensible than dc code. 17:31:33 -!- zeotrope has joined. 17:35:53 -!- lament has joined. 17:51:39 I don't like J; it's not open source :-/ 17:58:44 "Boo hoo." The libraries are at least viewable-source. 17:58:49 Feel free to reimplement it... 17:59:19 http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtowns.png ;; Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, English FM Towns version 17:59:24 http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtownsj.png ;; Japanese FM Towns version. 17:59:25 *Groan* 17:59:42 (Real screenshots.) 18:00:31 did someone say J? 18:00:41 Yes, yes they did. 18:00:48 alise: how does line noise look? 18:01:03 http://github.com/zeotrope/j7-src 18:01:15 olsner: not like a bunch of letters, a few punctuation chars and a lot of []s! 18:01:29 but more like perl code? 18:01:50 olsner: a lot of control characters, most likely 18:01:50 an old version of the J interpreter 18:01:57 zeotrope: ah, the first version? 18:02:03 no ... the first version was one file 18:02:09 "Viewable-source" 18:02:10 Yeesh 18:02:14 zeotrope: where did you get this? 18:02:19 zeotrope: also, fuck formatting changes 18:02:21 Windows CE is also "viewable-source" 18:02:25 waterloo APL/J archives 18:02:32 zeotrope: awesome. now undo your lame changes :D 18:02:38 Gregor: no, as in you can download it freely and it has the files right there 18:02:40 and you can change them 18:02:41 and it works 18:02:47 you just can't redistribute changes. 18:02:48 well 18:02:49 in fact 18:02:53 distributing a patch should be legal 18:03:02 so... whoo qmail-style development 18:03:13 the only actually closed-source bit is the interpreter itself and the Java UI 18:03:31 i think a lot of the forms (UI) stuff is part of the lib too so that'd be sourced as well 18:03:38 People who use shitty licenses are the worst kind of people :P 18:03:47 in j7.01 this will be the case 18:03:58 the gtk and web frontend will be written in J 18:04:01 Gregor: there is no license, it's freeware 18:04:05 zeotrope: omg, there's gonna be a gtk frontend? 18:04:09 zeotrope: <3 18:04:18 K has cooler UI stuff though ;) 18:04:24 K3 that is 18:04:30 K has a lot of cool things 18:04:40 K4/K5 are abominations of databasery :< 18:04:44 too bad its license sucks even more 18:04:51 yeah well 18:04:58 nsl still has the binaries :P 18:05:09 don't those binaries have a time limit? 18:05:12 although it's not in a linked path 18:05:15 zeotrope: no 18:05:21 it's the full k3 18:05:27 or at least... i never found a limitation 18:05:28 the manual, too 18:05:35 linux, windows and i think solaris or something weird like that 18:05:35 hmm, I'll take a look 18:05:40 but the windows binaries in wine work way better than the linux ones 18:05:41 for gui 18:05:48 zeotrope: as i said, pretty sure it's in an unlinked directory 18:05:55 the megabreds guys linked me 18:06:49 I've never liked Q 18:07:01 zeotrope: wait, why will it be 701? 18:07:04 it's 602 now 18:07:12 lots of unreleased/pay-only revisions? 18:07:28 or just a weird versioning scheme? 18:07:40 I guess, I'm not sure how they are named 18:07:55 since the old interpreter I showed you is called version 7 18:08:00 Slightly silly yet probably good idea for running Windows programs that don't work well in WINE (old games using obscure Direct2D features, for instance): have a Windows VM for qemu in QCOW. Create a new QCOW image using that one as the base. Install. 18:08:00 http://www.kx.com/a/ ;; here's a big directory of (official) k stuff 18:08:06 there might be a k3 binray there somewhere 18:08:14 Voila, per-app virtual machines not using unreasonable space. 18:09:06 pikhq: Or just use Xen to virtualise Windows! MWAHAHAHA-- 18:09:56 alise: Well, to do that, you need to be using a recent CPU, and qemu built to use Xen. 18:09:59 zeotrope: i'm trying to find k3 now :) 18:10:07 pikhq: OR JUST USE PLAIN XEN MWAHAHA 18:10:11 ya, me too 18:10:21 I love Arthur Whitney's C style 18:10:22 zeotrope: if all else fails i can try and get in touch with the guy who linked me. 18:10:49 alise: No source license handy, sadly. 18:10:58 pikhq: MWAHAHAHA 18:11:06 zeotrope: have you seen the k->english code? 18:11:07 it's awesome 18:11:15 no? link? 18:11:20 zeotrope: i'll try and find it 18:11:30 zeotrope: basically it replaces verbs with what they do and does a few adjective changes 18:11:31 quite amusing 18:11:39 especially as the code itself is incomprehensible :P 18:11:48 to a non K-er :P 18:11:57 zeotrope: to a mortal 18:12:05 pikhq: Have fun fighting Windows update. 18:12:13 I find J quite readable, but K pushes it with the overloading 18:12:20 Gregor: Here's the thing: we use Windows 2000 for it. THERE ARE NO UPDATES 18:12:25 zeotrope: tbh i've written a bit of k myself using the manual 18:12:29 zeotrope: the gui stuff is amazingly cool 18:12:30 Or 95, depending on what works better. 18:12:39 pikhq: Have fun getting hax0rd ;) 18:12:44 zeotrope: every value has properties 18:12:52 Gregor: yeah cuz you'd put it on the net of course. 18:13:02 Gregor: No known vulnerabilities for a fully-patched version of either, because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT. 18:13:06 zeotrope: like every value has its own dictionary...directory...hash table 18:13:10 and in fact every value has a path to it from the root 18:13:10 Well, except for in Internet Explorer. 18:13:13 an object filesystem 18:13:14 But who uses that shit? 18:13:18 anyway, every object has below it a GUI directory 18:13:26 where you specify what kind of control it should show as and actions and the like 18:13:36 and then you can have lists, and specify how they should show, as a form or a spreadsheet or whatever 18:13:38 Gregor: And anyways: totally totally behind iptables, even if it *is* on the net. 18:13:38 and then you just show them 18:13:40 it's really cool 18:13:44 I vaguely remember that, it was called a K-tree or something 18:13:48 yeah 18:13:57 http://www.nsl.com/k/view.k ;; K tree viewer :P 18:14:07 the blah..x stuff is the gui stuff 18:14:39 http://www.nsl.com/papers/spreadsheet.htm spreadsheets are stupidly simple since it's basically built-in :P 18:14:59 zeotrope: anyway windows is unquestionably the best platform for using K on, WINE works fine too. 18:15:04 for the gui 18:17:25 why must all the modern APLs be closed 18:17:28 :( 18:17:38 zeotrope: A+! 18:17:43 A+ doesn't count 18:17:43 THE MOST TOTALLY AWESOME APL DERIVATIVE EVER 18:17:47 haha 18:17:50 haha why not? i sort of agree but 18:17:53 interested in hearing your reasoning 18:18:00 A+ amuses me because of the ... conventional libraries 18:18:04 also, nine parameters bullshit 18:18:05 the character set for one 18:18:24 but it's more APLthentic :P 18:18:28 and it lacks a lot of "modern" stuff 18:18:36 hm like what? 18:18:40 good gui support? 18:18:51 libraries ya 18:18:56 but even semantics of the language 18:19:03 hmm 18:19:04 example? 18:19:46 exceptions? 18:19:46 zeotrope: grah, you have got me looking for k3! 18:19:55 wait, exceptions in what sense? 18:20:13 like proper error checking 18:20:21 nit-picking 18:20:25 as in non-local control flow? 18:20:29 but anything that applies to APL 18:20:32 non-local, imperative control flow? 18:20:37 ya 18:20:38 i'd say that's not a thing to brag about having! 18:20:44 not gotos 18:20:50 i know what exceptions are 18:20:57 they're still non-local, imperative control flow 18:21:03 which breaks like 3 out of 3 rules of how array programming works 18:21:13 if they are useful.. 18:21:19 (functional, not imperative, no "control flow" as such) 18:21:29 zeotrope: not that useful imo. 18:21:30 so are explicit conditionals 18:21:37 ok that i'll grant 18:23:23 hmm A+ has a lot of things I never knew.. 18:23:57 does it have a rank operator? 18:24:45 or does it still use APL bracket syntax 18:24:52 dunno 18:24:57 zeotrope: k has no rank :) 18:24:59 simplicity! 18:25:15 but rank is simplicity 18:25:29 generalizing a hard concept into one operator 18:25:32 zeotrope: no, k literally has no replacement for it 18:25:35 you just don't do that >:) 18:25:52 as far as i understand; i may be wrong 18:26:11 no, I believe you are correct 18:26:20 from what I have seen of K code 18:26:26 IS THAT AN INSULT MY FRIEND 18:26:50 APL FIGHT! 18:28:16 x@>#:'x 18:28:30 that's K for sorting strings by length 18:28:45 it appears that #:' does each length 18:28:58 so there must be some sort of selection 18:29:15 it's just magic so there 18:30:32 J version is better imo: (/: #&>) 18:30:51 you'd say that, Jacist 18:30:56 which sounds like racist, coincidence? 18:31:02 not at all.. 18:31:02 I declare jihad 18:31:59 on J? 18:32:07 J..Jihad..zomg 18:32:11 yes 18:32:19 it's all so clear now 18:32:19 JJihad, J^2ihad 18:42:39 WHERE IS K 18:43:25 zeotrope: btw http://www.nsl.com/papers/instant.htm, starts out normal before he starts freaking transmitting code to be executed and then *editing objects that result and re-sending them* 18:43:28 you may have already seen it 18:43:39 not sure exactly how secure it is :P 18:45:35 I'm impressed at how much K stuff there is 18:45:48 zeotrope: most of it his :P 18:46:00 ya :P 18:46:04 what's his name again, i've forgotten 18:46:08 Steven A...? 18:46:09 Steven Apter? 18:47:37 yup 18:47:42 zeotrope: http://www.nsl.com/links.html he has quite an esolang passion if you grep /Esoteric/ 18:47:45 stevan 18:47:50 also there's some esoteric language implementations on nsl.com... 18:48:09 unlambda, jot, zot, 01, 10, befunge-93, false, befreak, brainfuck 18:48:14 in K ofc 18:50:21 zeotrope: if olegfink was online i'd just ask him for the link 18:51:10 is that the J/K oleg? 18:51:28 zeotrope: is there a specific J/K oleg? 18:51:31 I suppose it may be. 18:51:35 http://nsl.com/k/excel.k ;; excel v1 18:51:37 http://nsl.com/k/excel/excel2.k ;; excel v2 18:51:39 WHAT NOW MICROSOFT 18:52:03 the goggles.. 18:52:12 zeotrope: see bottom of page for actual VB macros for excel :D 18:52:18 to use with k for ... i have no idea what this does 18:52:25 http://nsl.com/k/excel/ 18:52:32 maybe k.xls holds the key 18:55:12 k.xls has a macro called kload, I'm assuming this is an interface to excel 18:55:34 the mind boggles. 18:55:40 but is it to write K in excel 18:55:43 the bind moggles 18:55:49 zeotrope: i think it's two-way?? I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS THIS 18:55:50 or to manipulate excel from K 18:56:03 the k obvs parses formulas... 18:56:34 ya, small lexer there 18:57:14 and parser 18:57:16 and .. 18:57:19 and something 18:58:12 I also once saw K in K 18:58:42 http://nsl.com/k/wolfram.k 18:58:54 in which steven rewrites A New Kind of Science in three lines 18:59:01 then gives it a GUI in three 18:59:05 well, basically two 18:59:12 what's K 19:00:06 a descendant of APL 19:00:15 why do we care? 19:00:33 no one said you do 19:02:02 cheater99: we have cared about J/K for a while. 19:02:21 alise: oh ok 19:02:21 a year or two in fact 19:02:28 is that a word play 19:02:28 zeotrope: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k ;; the ->english 19:02:40 http://nsl.com/papers/kisntlisp.htm seems to imply it turns 19:02:45 +(#:'=v[;1];?v[;1]) 19:02:45 into 19:02:46 and are you gonna suddenly scream out JUST KIDDING!! 19:02:46 flip(count each group v[;1];unique v[;1]) 19:02:48 cheater99: no. 19:02:55 that would be stupid. 19:02:59 yes 19:03:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:03:26 but because of that, it would also be completely unexpected. which would make it smart again. 19:03:34 no 19:03:38 no it wouldn't 19:03:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:04:14 *sneeze* 19:04:18 * cheater99 has a cold : ( 19:04:47 * alise is COLS AND HEARTLESS 19:05:10 *COLD 19:05:13 alise: so you're tabular? 19:05:17 there is a similar one in J, converts J to "english" 19:05:23 or haskell imo 19:05:34 alise: do you run a local instance of squid proxy? 19:05:57 cheater99: no 19:06:00 zeotrope: lol 19:06:05 cheater99: do you? 19:08:49 yes 19:08:54 why? 19:09:00 it works perfectly for fixing my internet woes 19:09:04 define 19:09:12 i use mobile internet (temporarily) and they have this transparent proxy 19:09:24 i used mobile internet for over a month 19:09:31 it minifies html and recompresses images, and sometimes it returns empty responses in error 19:09:36 it didn't compress images though or any of that bullshit 19:09:40 squid has an option for retrying that 19:09:43 just had a content filter, easily removed 19:09:46 (you just call up) 19:09:49 ALSO: 19:09:55 it's great for when you use multiple browsers 19:10:00 and want to share a cache between them 19:10:03 i don't 19:10:13 also allows webpages to be prefetched 19:18:20 however, it seems to be fucking up dns too 19:18:32 so i get squid complaining that there are no dns records for q.ebaystatic.com. 19:18:40 and i have to think about getting a dns caching proxy too 19:18:51 http://www.logarithmic.net/ghost.xhtml ;; click "random" a lot 19:18:52 wonderful 19:19:31 alise: how come you're all into diagrams suddenly? 19:19:38 cheater99: er, I am? 19:19:42 what else have i said about diagrams? 19:19:50 you were posting some diagram game last week i think 19:20:15 where you had to come up with the longest interconnected line or something like that and had hexagonal tiles 19:20:40 really? 19:20:43 no, no i didn't 19:20:47 you must be thinking of someone else 19:20:50 or i have amnesia 19:22:08 it's probably my error 19:22:32 'a aC C', 'a bC D', 'b aD C', 'b bD D', 'cacAAA', 'dacBBB', 'cbcBBB', 'dbcBBB', 'cadAAA', 'dadBBB', 'cbdBBB', 'dbdAAA', colors=['#fff', '#000', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#000', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#fff'] 19:22:35 a tileset implementing rule 110 19:22:54 colors doesn't work with the web version 19:22:55 it seems 19:23:10 i've seen it 19:23:25 so i wonder when his program knows that a tileset is "solved" 19:23:40 when it's filled the whole field, which is finite, presumably 19:23:45 i mean this isn't regular at all that i know of: '11 1 ', '111 1 ' 19:23:46 ok 19:23:51 cheater99: it's random 19:23:52 i think 19:23:56 ah ok 19:24:04 but sometimes it does backtracking 19:24:05 which is why you get a different one each time 19:24:10 and i don't know when it decides to do that 19:24:13 cheater99: presumably if it figures out it can't fit something somewhere 19:24:14 at all 19:24:37 maybe possibly not terminating? 'dDDDd-', 'ddDd-D', 'ddd--D' 19:25:17 try it 19:25:24 heh 19:25:25 it hates you :) 19:25:41 cheater99: it may be impossible to do, or simply take a very long time 19:25:54 yes 19:26:15 but given that i'm only on a centrino, it's relatively NP-hard. 19:27:48 cheater99: ... wat 19:27:58 worst abuse of NP-hard ever :D 19:28:23 it's np-hard-to-disprove-on-a-slow-cpu 19:33:35 cheater99: wow he included ghost diagrams in his phd thesis 19:33:43 http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/thesis chapter 7 apparently 19:33:52 holy 60 megabyte pdf batman :) 19:33:58 alise: niiice 19:34:21 i can't get the hang of making nice patterns yet :( 19:36:34 cheater99: oh the same guy also wrote a GIMP plugin that does that awesome texture synthesis stuff 19:36:42 i.e. "oh look i just removed this object by coping some of the sky" and the like 19:37:29 you mean the least-power-path thing? 19:38:02 hmm? 19:38:18 cheater99: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer 19:38:22 see the example pages 19:38:45 photoshop recently introduced this and everyone called it magical 19:38:55 resynthesizer is slightly less polished but still pretty good 19:39:05 also part of his Ph.D. xD 19:40:18 * alise , in a stunning burst of insanity, decides to code a stupid half-wiki 19:40:46 oh that's cooool 19:40:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 19:42:13 i like this a looot: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer/theming 19:42:34 ARGH 19:42:39 I can't seem to press Enter! 19:42:47 On ShareKeyboard 19:42:51 press the other enter 19:43:31 why are browsers so stupid that they can't embed a program inside a page 19:43:33 without like java crap 19:43:38 i wanna say 19:43:52 This is a test, this is only a test. ShareKeyboard is pretty awesome. Except for the lack of an Enter key... help me help me I can't say anything 19:44:07 alise: don't get me started 19:44:16 alise: every technology used by the internet is a failed piece of crap 19:44:27 foo = document.getElementById("editor").runApplication(preferences.editor, "-stdin"); foo.write(sometext); 19:44:28 or whatever 19:44:33 reasons why this doesn't work: 19:44:36 - shitty OSes are architectured shittily 19:44:45 - LOL EVERYBODY FAILS AT MAKING A SECURITY SYSTEM SO WE JUST STOP PEOPLE DOING USEFUL THINGS 19:44:47 - fuck everything 19:44:51 I had to switch to stock keyboard to send that... although actually, in landscape mode, there's a share button 19:44:57 Erm, send button 19:45:33 ♥ 19:47:30 cheater99: ... so instead i'll just implement my own editor component! BECAUSE I CLEARLY WANT TO DO THAT 19:47:40 fuck the web. fuck it fuck it 19:48:00 yes, fuck it 19:48:01 i made some wiki software once that popped open your editor to edit pages, that was quite nice but only worked locally... 19:48:24 cheater99: and here's the monstrosity that did it: 19:48:37 it was a pre-rendered dealie 19:48:37 i expect java 19:48:39 not online 19:48:42 so 19:48:51 the edit link linked to a *localhost* with ?page=foo 19:48:51 now 19:48:53 on your localhost 19:48:56 you ran a server 19:48:59 that listened for requests 19:49:01 ahh 19:49:01 haha 19:49:04 and opened your editor 19:49:14 sounds like php and system() 19:49:16 so you'd click the link on your external server, which would bounce back to localhost, which would open your editor and redirect you back 19:49:21 so you had an "edit" link that worked 19:49:37 then you edited, saved, and pressed whatever hotkey you had to build and upload the site 19:49:47 the code was a bit of a mess though, for the building bit 19:49:53 Testing with WifiKeyboard, this is a test this is only a test. 19:49:59 This is much, much better for IRC 19:50:11 And no ads! 19:50:24 Can't see the input on the computer screen, though 19:50:29 But I can seem to backspace 19:50:36 "Male infertility gene discovered" --BBC News 19:50:53 NATURAL SELECTION: THE MORE YOU KNOW =============* 19:51:33 So in Game mode, backspace only sends one backspace 19:52:10 Love, love, is a verb, love is a doing word 19:52:13 ♥ 19:52:18 ə 19:52:20 Shut up. 19:52:42 Never! 19:52:47 Muahahahahhahahahhh! 19:52:49 * SgeoN1 goes insane 19:54:10 I think this will be useful at schoo, so I don't have to login to, say, Gmail to respond using a decent keybiard 19:54:25 Hmm, I'm not even looking at my phone right now, so don't know if I'm typoing 19:54:33 Since Wifi Keyboard doesn't show current input 19:56:56 It occurs to me that it's not the most secure thing to use at school :/ 19:57:21 cheater99: How do you name things? I'm wondering if there is actually a trick t it. 19:57:26 *to 19:57:29 Busyloop! 19:57:58 alise: in a greenfield project, in a legacy project, or when reverse-engineering? 19:57:58 Well, if someone else starts typing, the thing will complain about multiple input 19:58:23 cheater99: Just... naming a spare-time project. Greenfield, sure. 19:58:32 I don't have any other kinds of projects. :p 19:58:42 oh, you mean naming a project 19:58:54 i thought you meant code objects (classes, functions, variables) 19:59:07 well then, i usually try to figure out if there has been some form of inspiration for this 19:59:31 i try to find the use for what i'm doing, and then express the gist of that 19:59:32 i'm thinking maybe bonsai but that's a very tenuous link 19:59:37 (bonsai trees are small, my software is small!) 19:59:44 seems almost like i should save that name for something better. 20:00:00 no, that's not great 20:00:14 what software are you trying to name? 20:00:17 what does it do? 20:00:48 it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things) 20:00:56 primarily the byproduct of my serve NIH syndrome 20:03:18 cheater99: thinking about it, bonsai has a more tenuous link -- the links of pages to each other sort of form a branching tree 20:03:26 it's a graph, but whatever, you can imagine a link visualisation as a tree 20:04:11 you've got a problem i see in many coders right now 20:04:19 you are thinking of the code and not about what it does 20:04:32 i was doing a code review with this girl last friday 20:04:34 you mean i'm thinking too technically? dude, it's for my own use. 20:04:38 and i ask her what the application does 20:04:50 so she says "the calculation class blah blah blah" 20:04:50 here's what it does: it maintains a website. 20:04:57 it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things) 20:05:00 that's pretty non-codey 20:05:03 so i tell her ok, but i don't want to know about that, i want to know what the application is for 20:05:24 "yes, you build up a configuration object and then pass it and blah blah blah" 20:05:27 so i tell her 20:05:33 yes, i get it 20:05:35 no, i don't want to know about any classes 20:05:53 on the most basic level, what does the application do, in the eyes of a user? 20:06:03 "it is a collection of form text input fields." 20:06:07 . . . 20:06:11 i stopped asking 20:06:27 :D 20:06:30 but seriously, i didn't do that. 20:06:45 yeah 20:06:52 just sayin' 20:06:59 and besides 20:07:09 what's the difference if it's for your own use or for someone else's use? 20:07:20 there are big benefits to keeping projects public-ready 20:07:27 1. it makes you finish them so they work 20:07:40 2. it makes you write the important bits like manuals etc which makes you actually rethink usefulness 20:07:52 3. it makes you package it nicely even if for your own use (useful down the line) 20:08:01 4. it makes you think differently about what's necessary 20:09:53 cheater99: yeah, uh, you're no fun at all. 20:11:53 i kno :( 20:12:10 so this is a personal wiki only/ 20:12:11 ? 20:12:17 uni-user? 20:12:27 or rather monouser 20:14:13 cheater99: yes 20:14:26 cheater99: but infinite readers 20:14:31 well 20:14:41 so you've got a set of information which you maintain 20:14:45 as your own brain map 20:14:56 i already know what i want it to do 20:14:58 i just want to name it. 20:14:58 like wolfram's brain? 20:15:04 is that it? 20:15:05 i'm guessing 20:15:42 cheater99: not really 20:15:50 it's just a website with an edit button for one person :P 20:15:55 but you're the only maintainer 20:16:02 and you make it nice and fine for yourself 20:16:18 others can look at it but you're the only one who builds it and understands it 20:16:31 that's a real connotation with a banzai 20:16:39 "banzai" does not mean what you think it is 20:16:41 since every banzai belongs to only one person 20:16:49 banzai tree ? 20:16:52 it means "ten thousand years". 20:16:54 you mean "bonsai". 20:17:04 yes 20:17:30 i have misspelled it because xchat underlined bonzai and not banzai :( 20:18:40 that's because it's bonsai 20:18:44 the more you know =========++* 20:18:46 *no +s 20:19:16 anyway bonsai it is then :P 20:19:22 now for the even harder part, deciding a language! 20:19:26 can you tell i never get anything done? 20:20:49 haskell 20:20:57 ftfy 20:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:22:56 cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) 20:23:04 very good 20:23:08 now appreciate it practically 20:23:11 and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed 20:23:16 i am now a lot less disturbed 20:23:35 Oh, no, we aren't on a Haskell vs C slanging match, are we? 20:23:37 ugh, how do you figure out your dns server now? 20:23:41 Phantom_Hoover: nope 20:23:45 cheater99 is on the haskell side 20:23:55 i'm on my own side 20:24:06 ( cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed i am now a lot less disturbed) 20:24:17 cheater99: /etc/resolv.conf? 20:24:20 alise: write it in something that has a natural impedance match for that 20:24:32 cheater99: wonderful advice; useless, of course, but... 20:24:34 Why did you go crazy enough to forget type systems? 20:24:40 I might write it in rc :) 20:24:46 i.e. natural graph structures, and taxonomies 20:24:47 Phantom_Hoover: because the things you see... in type theory... they scare you 20:24:51 Did you believe only in category theory? 20:24:52 you can never truly be whole again 20:25:07 alise, what, you mean undecidable types? 20:25:11 Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah you start becoming convinced that you should base a computational model on category theory 20:25:13 rather than type theory 20:25:21 that's usually when the cluster headaches start 20:25:26 alise: that file seems to work 20:25:34 does it get automagically updated by dialup software? 20:25:37 What kind of awful things are there in type theory? 20:25:44 cheater99: DHCP will update it (I forget the client name) 20:25:50 so yes probably 20:26:05 cheater99: you may simply want to remove all write bits from the file if the dialup thing does it 20:26:08 cheater99: here NetworkManager sets it 20:26:15 cheater99: btw NetworkManager can connect to a lot of 3G modems 20:26:20 to avoid the shitty dialup software 20:26:21 highly recommended 20:26:40 Ubuntu, at least, has a nice wizard for it 20:26:43 if you go to edit connections 20:26:51 i bet you can set a custom dns server after that too 20:29:13 Dammit I want to know the forbidden secrets of type theory alise. 20:29:22 Phantom_Hoover: IA IA IA 20:29:32 Insert Zalgo 20:29:37 You forgot the diæreses! 20:29:50 IÄ IÄ IÄ! 20:29:55 Better! 20:31:19 I wish wiki syntaxes sucked less. 20:31:24 Solution: MAKE THEM SUCK LESS 20:31:44 Which sucks more: PMWiki markup or MediaWiki markup? 20:31:47 {tag ...} is a tag. Maybe I'll have keyword arguments. 20:31:52 alise: hmm 20:32:01 Phantom_Hoover: If a tree falls in a forest and noöne is around to hear it? 20:32:06 alise: i should try it then 20:32:21 cheater99: what distro? 20:32:25 alise, do you not know PMWiki markup? 20:32:28 ubuntu! 20:33:13 cheater99: uninstall crappy dialup software, right click network icon, edit connections, mobile broadband, add, hope for the best 20:33:20 it has a surprising range of support 20:33:22 and usually Just Works 20:33:49 Phantom_Hoover: Indeed not. 20:33:56 Phantom_Hoover: But I was implying their equal shittiness. 20:33:56 It's what TV Tropes uses. 20:34:05 Yeah. 20:34:08 I've edited TV Tropes exactly once. 20:34:19 Well, at least MediaWiki doesn't have 4 different kinds of link formats. 20:34:32 *internal link formats. 20:34:33 When you go to edit it tells you not to say This Troper on the article page because they're making the pages not discussions any more. 20:34:38 Which is Wikipedian bullshit. 20:34:49 Clearly they have never browsed WardsWiki. 20:35:22 The discussion does get a little out of hand in both places... 20:35:24 alise: i don't think i need to uninstall crappy dialup software 20:35:36 alise: btw, i have ditched network manager for wicd 20:35:40 cheater99: if it's handling connections you probably do. 20:35:42 network manager was cancer for me 20:35:46 cheater99: also, i doubt wicd can do this. 20:35:48 so your loss 20:35:51 yeah 20:35:57 cheater99: networkmanager works fine :P 20:35:57 but nm was very very bad for me 20:36:04 better than shitty dialup software for sure 20:36:05 the wifi was dying all the time with nm 20:36:16 this ain't wifi 20:36:53 cheater99: anyway just make your changes to /etc/resolv.conf, -w it 20:36:54 done 20:37:03 yeah 20:37:20 i set up djbdns on my pc 20:37:25 let's see how it works with retries 20:37:52 cheater99: djb software is great if you already have djb software, otherwise it brings along a lot of /services stuff :D 20:38:14 i have had it installed already 20:38:16 funnily enough 20:38:26 (i go through the package manager and install 100s of packages.) 20:38:32 ew 20:38:34 :P 20:38:55 it's great because it shows you software you never thought existed 20:39:14 i don't want to know about more software, the existing set gives me enough pain :) 20:39:20 alise are you into audio stuff at all? 20:39:28 specify further 20:40:16 well, making/recording music 20:40:21 and sounds 20:40:43 i'd like to do it, but i have no particular talent for it. 20:40:58 define "have no particular talent" 20:40:58 i have discovered this lack of talent an amusing number of times, and like to blame software for it. 20:41:10 cheater99: i have no particular inspiration for what to do to produce pleasing sounds. 20:41:24 ah 20:41:27 that comes with practice 20:41:37 but it's not that difficult 20:41:43 cheater99: i also have the extreme lack of patience to learn, say, an instrument. 20:42:09 I love the way Look Around You lapses into horror at random. 20:42:11 it doesn't have to be about mastering finger techniques 20:42:17 Phantom_Hoover: which episode? 20:42:26 the cool thing about this stuff is that there's a lot of technology backing it 20:42:33 and a lot about it is highly esoteric 20:42:37 Calcium specifically, but the Boîte Diabolique also counts. 20:42:47 Phantom_Hoover: The Helvetica scenario. 20:42:56 Indeed. 20:43:00 cheater99: i have this wonderful plan to create a wonderful music-composition software based on vague bits of interacting code; it will never happen 20:43:10 VwumVweeeeeeeeeee...VwumVweeeeeeeeeeeee 20:43:19 cellular automaton music has been done to death 20:43:23 cheater99: not that 20:43:36 imagine a typical horizontal-is-time, vertical-is-tracks thing, but instead of waveforms it's little snippets of code 20:43:51 and there's a huge library of, say, sine waves, midi, raw waveform, etc. functions 20:43:58 you've just described a tracker 20:44:01 and filters that do effects and the like 20:44:03 and you stack them with code 20:44:12 cheater99: i've never seen anyone input code into a tracker 20:44:21 screamtracker 20:44:25 well it's very simple code 20:44:33 it's just a few most important things 20:44:35 yeah, the code i'm thinking of isn't :P 20:44:45 you'd have, say, a whole "riff" in one block of code 20:45:07 yes 20:45:28 cheater99: it also doesn't help that simple music bores me 20:45:29 cellular automaton music has been done to death ← it has? 20:45:33 you can do this stuff in uh.. 20:45:35 what's the name 20:45:39 and making boring things bores me even more than consuming them. 20:45:43 Phantom_Hoover: yes, even by wolfram 20:45:44 it sucks 20:46:04 cmusic? something like that 20:46:04 How does it work? 20:46:06 c-something 20:46:10 chuck? 20:46:15 but i know there's another c- thin 20:46:17 alise: no 20:46:19 cheater99: and if you've ever tried creating might be 20:46:19 c-sound 20:46:20 erm 20:46:21 that's it 20:46:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMusic 20:46:39 i mean c-sound 20:46:49 cheater99: most music composition software is ridiculously complex, i've noticed 20:47:01 five billion twiddle knobs, five billion preferences behind it, five billion different modes... 20:47:04 cmusic is the max/msp predecessor isn't it? 20:47:16 yes 20:47:21 music software is generally gay 20:47:23 (also: interfaces that look like real equipment and have stupid knobs and shit MAKE ME FUCKING RAGE) 20:47:30 And none of it implements the Boîtes Diabolique. 20:47:31 it's all like ms word 20:47:32 (MY COMPUTER DOES NOT FUCKING WORK LIKE THAT FUCK YOU) 20:47:40 if you want a nice vim based build system, you don't get shit. 20:48:01 xD 20:48:02 alise, you expect *musicians* to be able to competently use a well-designed UI? 20:48:06 I think not. 20:48:08 Phantom_Hoover: Um. 20:48:18 If a musician can use Ableton. 20:48:24 Then that musician can use literally any interface known to man. 20:48:34 Ableton is the *craziest freaking thing* ever. 20:48:34 20:48:50 Not even Reason is that bad. 20:49:07 cheater99: Maybe I'll get ahold of the original Atari ST version of Logic :) 20:49:08 i tried getting a job at ableton 20:49:11 My father has that. 20:49:14 And an Atari to run it on! 20:49:28 they replied with a code excercise 20:49:28 i replied with code 20:49:32 Something happened last night 20:49:37 (in python, which they wanted) 20:49:42 (He now does music using Logic Studio on Windows Me. No joke.) 20:49:46 they replied that my code is not up to their quality standards 20:49:57 i had someone at PSF check that code and find no problems with it 20:50:00 My dad said that if it weren't for him visiting the hospital where my step-mother's mom was, she would have died due to incompetent care 20:50:03 I WIN 20:50:09 I wonder if maybe I should become a doctor 20:50:40 I don't like the thought of other people's lives being in my hands, but if I displace someone who might be less competent, it's a net win I think 20:50:48 alise: tell him to start using sonar 20:50:56 alise: it's the nicest thing for windoze 20:50:59 cheater99: i'm not on speaking terms with my father. 20:51:05 alise: :( 20:51:20 alise: he uses windows me. i wouldn't talk to him either : P 20:51:27 also, he still uses Me because he never saw a reason to upgrade. also Cool Edit Pro and Sound Forge 20:51:32 so i doubt he will ever change his setup, ever 20:51:40 sound forge ain't so bad 20:51:45 cheater99: *old* sound forge 20:51:47 all the software is old 20:51:53 * Phantom_Hoover takes a look at Ableton's interface. 20:51:58 there's a point to "it works" though 20:51:58 My god... I am humbled. 20:52:08 Phantom_Hoover: wat 20:52:10 yeah 20:52:12 ableton's interface is fairly shit 20:52:18 Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse when you can click on it 20:52:26 see, the simplistic interface you normally see 20:52:29 is the one for retards 20:52:35 you can't tweak anything despite it being almost impossible to use 20:52:36 -!- Flonk has joined. 20:52:38 what's worst is that they're trying to be a dj/live production thing 20:52:41 but they suck at dj 20:52:43 so you get to enter the even worse parts of the interface 20:52:43 they suck at live 20:52:46 and they suck at production 20:52:50 cheater99: Autechre use Ableton in live performances 20:52:59 which, uh, props to them because that shit sounds painfully impossible to me 20:53:17 wonder if they use max/msp live too 20:53:24 HOW FAST CAN I MOVE THIS MOUSE TO THIS TEXT BOX AND TWEAK THE VALUE 20:53:25 autechre is not something i'd consider an influence to myself 20:53:33 autechre are awesome 20:53:41 you know what's awesome? 20:53:54 when i turn up the resonance knob, my tb303's sequencer slows down 20:53:55 Look Around You? 20:53:57 No. 20:54:01 because the batteries are half empty. 20:54:04 that's awesome. 20:54:05 O GOD I AM BECOMING SGEO 20:54:07 cheater99: http://dailyjs.com/images/posts/autechre.jpg <-- Max/MSP patches by Autechre 20:54:10 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:54:11 Why does it have a colour picker? I DON'T KNOW 20:54:24 i've done better 20:54:32 KILL ME WHILE I STILL HAVE SOME HOOVERITY LEFT 20:54:35 Phantom_Hoover, how so? 20:55:06 Phantom_Hoover: Name a language! 20:55:19 Come to think of it, I basically want Logo with a bit more syntactic sugar. ...wait, I just said I want REBOL. 20:55:19 i've done patches full of text entry boxes 20:55:21 I TAKE IT BACK I TAKE IT 20:55:25 and that's across like 3 screens. 20:55:32 alise, Nemerle! 20:55:39 cheater99: but what that outputs probably counts as music to most people >:) 20:55:42 (yours, that is) 20:55:54 Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of Nemerle whatsoever. 20:55:55 actually 20:55:57 Æ TRANSCEND YOUR MERE PERCEPTIONS OF MUSIC 20:56:01 it was an additive synthesizer 20:56:14 for researching on inharmonic spectra 20:56:25 which is very important to the musicality of computer music 20:56:48 once electronic instruments can reliably generate inharmonic spectra, the world of electronic music will change forever 20:57:24 that made no sense to me at all. 20:58:26 99.99999999999999999999% of all sounds generated with electronic means are either noise, or harmonic spectra, or derivations from those, or recordings. 20:58:56 i like noise. 20:59:00 so what's inharmonic spectra 20:59:11 if you have a sound, it has partials 20:59:26 alise, I think it's something to do with its timbre. 20:59:43 According to the first result on Google. 20:59:46 the frequency and the loudness envelope of these partials is called the spectrum 20:59:55 it can be seen with a spectrograph 20:59:59 cheater99, is that correct? 21:00:05 yes 21:00:34 So real instruments produce harmonic spectra, while computers produce inharmonic ones? 21:00:35 most sounds generated with syntesizers have harmonic spectra 21:00:46 Oh, other way round? 21:01:15 Makes sense. 21:02:31 harmonic spectrum = repeating waveform 21:02:36 basically 21:02:50 a piano is stretched-harmonic. it is a special type of inharmonicity. 21:04:55 you have an almost-harmonic spectrum, except 21:05:04 So electronic music is too precise, or what? 21:05:48 in a harmonic spectrum, the frequencies of partials are 1f, 2f, 3f, ... 21:06:07 in a stretched-harmonic spectrum it's 1af, 2af, 3af, 4af, ... 21:06:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]). 21:06:21 where a > 1 21:06:34 (of course you can also try a <1 and it'll sound nice too) 21:06:53 i think for a piano a is around between 1.001 and 1.1, not sure 21:06:58 WHY DOESN'T THIS HAVE AN OBVIOUS ANSWER 21:07:15 -!- tombom has joined. 21:07:18 alise: ? 21:07:21 Different instruments have different spectra 21:07:30 well 21:07:43 Computers have different types of spectra to real instruments. 21:07:46 i find that it's mostly about the "a" rather than the levels 21:08:11 I think that's basically it. 21:08:42 Oh, and cheater99 plans to discover how to generate inharmonic spectra with a computer and make 5 billion currencies. 21:10:45 yes 21:11:05 it is currently not being achieved on a computer 21:11:14 Why? 21:11:16 it is a very difficult problem computationally 21:11:23 the additive method needs umpteens of partials 21:11:42 and the physical method (simulate a string with weight) is out of reach 21:11:46 (that i know of) 21:13:49 And wind instruments? 21:13:49 Phantom_Hoover: >SPIT OUT RANDOM LANGUAGE 21:14:02 I already spat out Nemerle. 21:14:19 * Phantom_Hoover plays the flute and is constantly confused by the keyings for notes. 21:14:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:16:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:17:13 hi ais523! 21:17:29 ais523: name a (non-eso) language, please 21:18:24 alise: Perl 21:18:27 alise, WHAT, NEMERLE NOT RANDOM ENOUGH 21:18:30 wait, you said non-eso 21:18:31 *? 21:18:34 umm, ADA 21:19:10 ais523: okay, non-eso but including Perl and languages of similar esoity; can i have another? 21:19:12 Also, it's Ada. 21:19:24 alise: but the entire language is in allcaps 21:19:29 alise: m4 21:19:34 ada? 21:19:36 no it isn't 21:19:47 Factor 21:19:48 ais523: err, ok, strengthen non-eso constraint a bit more 21:19:49 alise: actually, I think it's case-insensitive 21:19:54 with Ada.Text_IO; 21:19:55 21:19:55 procedure Hello is 21:19:55 begin 21:19:55 Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line("Hello, world!"); 21:19:55 end Hello; 21:19:57 but all the Ada code I've seen has been in allcaps 21:20:01 C# 21:20:15 alise, Prolog. 21:20:20 LSL 21:20:25 conclusion: on average, a randomly-picked language is not suitable for your project 21:20:35 alise: I agree 21:20:38 PRO. LOG. 21:20:46 this is why I don't use the same lang for everything 21:20:59 alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. 21:21:00 OTOH, there's generally more than one lang suitable for any given project 21:21:25 Objective C. 21:21:33 Objective C++! 21:21:35 D! 21:22:37 hmm, does objective C++ actually exist? 21:23:21 I've seen in mentioned in OS X docs. 21:23:36 I can't remember if it was actually a langage. 21:23:38 alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. ;; wat? 21:23:42 *language. 21:23:43 ais523: yes, for compatibility 21:23:46 with C++ libs 21:23:47 ah, OK 21:23:58 I couldn't think of a plausible reason for it to exist, but that's one 21:25:39 wow, DNS root server H was down for around 18 hours 21:25:50 and that's the one owned by the US Army 21:26:00 how reassuring! 21:26:00 the root servers going down is pretty rare... 21:26:09 It's the terrists. 21:26:19 Obviously the nuclear holocaust is mere hours away. 21:27:23 * Phantom_Hoover continues thinking about graph-based esolangs. 21:27:30 Phantom_Hoover: oklopol 21:27:45 Graphica 21:27:49 Am I an oklo? 21:27:51 Eodermdrome 21:28:02 Phantom_Hoover: oklopol's Graphica and ais523 's Eodermdrome 21:28:30 Link? 21:29:12 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt is so useless words fail me. 21:29:13 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt 21:29:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome 21:29:30 Phantom_Hoover: there are also some vjn.fi/pb links by oklopol with graphica code in them in the logs 21:30:05 WHY NOT READ OKLOTALK-- CODE INSTEAD 21:30:06 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt 21:30:10 BECAUSE THE LISTS ARE MINE 21:30:37 IIRC, Eodermdrome still hasn't been implemented 21:30:45 although someone (oerjan?) wrote a program in it to prove TCness 21:31:00 What languages would be good for graph manipulation? 21:31:14 My brain has failed me on this. 21:31:20 ais523: oerjan, yeah 21:32:34 <-- (greater/less) (or equal to/than) --> 21:32:37 -- oklotalk--.txt 21:32:37 lol 21:33:53 Phantom_Hoover: this is probably why eodermdrome wasn't implemented 21:34:00 because nobody can think of a lang that's remotely good to implement it in 21:34:26 I've seen some snippets of graphy code in Prolog... 21:34:44 (A fact represents a connection betwixt nodes.) 21:34:56 Phantom_Hoover: you could also just have 21:34:58 arc(a,b) 21:35:07 and e.g. value(a,42). 21:35:08 But Prolog doesn't like interfacing with the outside world very much. 21:35:17 Phantom_Hoover: it does it alright... 21:35:21 alise, that is the point. 21:35:36 Phantom_Hoover: i thought you meant like 21:35:36 a(b) 21:35:38 is arc(a,b) 21:35:39 which is bizarre 21:35:41 Presumably asserts would be used to parse 21:35:45 alise, of course not. 21:35:49 yeah, and dynamic 21:35:50 did it have 21:35:55 arc(A,B) :- arc(B,A). 21:35:57 ? 21:36:00 or was it directional 21:36:13 I think it was. 21:36:18 But we can do it that way. 21:36:28 bah markup formats suck! 21:37:57 Phantom_Hoover: I love the Prolog pathfinding code: 21:37:59 path(A, B) :- arc(A, B). 21:38:00 path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B). 21:38:34 Prolog is cool; this is indisputable. 21:38:47 Utterly impractical, but so, so cool. 21:40:19 * alise debugs his path *recording* code 21:41:15 | ?- find_path(a,d,R). 21:41:15 R = [[a|d]] ? ; (forever) 21:41:18 that should not happen... 21:41:23 find_path(A, B, [[A|B]]) :- arc(A, B). 21:41:23 find_path(A, B, [[A|C]|R]) :- 21:41:23 find_path(A, C, R1), 21:41:23 find_path(C, B, R2), 21:41:23 append(R1, R2, R). 21:41:44 alise 21:42:01 is she cute http://tinyurl.com/2vqdepz 21:42:24 sheesh, i was even being on-topic 21:42:31 (Prolog counts as esoteric, right?) 21:42:40 not trying hard enough 21:42:59 it has existed for more than 1 year 21:43:02 AND has more than 100 users 21:43:06 :-/ 21:44:14 i'm not sure anyone really uses prolog. 21:44:16 prolog uses them. 21:45:35 How would one delete nodes for this? 21:45:56 Phantom_Hoover: retract 21:45:59 Presumably you would need to deassert every arc containing them. 21:46:09 alise: it's not nice to not answer questions :( 21:46:12 ohh, wait, my path code is right 21:46:21 since it's not directional 21:46:29 cheater99: why are you asking, why me, and why in here? 21:46:40 alise, assert(arc(a,b)). 21:46:45 retract(a). 21:46:51 arc(a,b). 21:47:07 Still true. 21:47:13 alise: because i wonder what you think! 21:47:19 Phantom_Hoover: reatract(arc(a,b)) 21:47:21 *retract 21:47:22 durr 21:47:25 just randomly 21:47:26 cheater99: why? 21:47:33 (you were the first person i saw talking on irc) 21:47:45 alise, see /msg 21:47:59 | ?- path(a,x). 21:47:59 Fatal Error: local stack overflow (size: 8192 Kb, environment variable used: LOCALSZ) 21:48:28 Is there actually a way of getting away with non-tail recursion? 21:48:40 sure 21:48:42 path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B), !. 21:49:01 I meant generally. 21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:49:32 | ?- find_path(a, d, R). 21:49:32 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:49:40 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:49:43 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:49:43 lol 21:50:32 Phantom_Hoover: there's also retractall 21:50:34 http://bulba.sdsu.edu/prolog/parsing/recursion_and_assertion.htm 21:50:47 alise, retract(arc(a,X)). 21:50:55 Phantom_Hoover: retractall 21:51:00 retractall(arc(a,_)). 21:51:26 I see no particular difference there... 21:52:17 Gyah, I've forgotten what cut does. 21:53:09 Phantom_Hoover: forgets about all backtracking opportunities 21:53:15 won't go back before the cut 21:53:19 and if it fails after that, it'll just fail. 21:53:49 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:53:49 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:53:49 R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ? 21:53:49 Incidentally, your thing to make arcs undirected obviously leads to an infinite loop. 21:53:49 um 21:53:58 that seems incredibly messy 21:54:01 Vorpal: it's just paths... 21:54:05 alise, ah 21:54:14 alise, thought you had written code like that :P 21:55:32 If I have an account on LTSP and it log in using the Ubuntu GUI, how to set environment variables global to the account? 21:55:53 zzo38: .profile 21:56:41 LTSP? 21:56:46 Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account? 21:56:47 that sounds familiar 21:56:50 what was it now again 21:57:03 Linux Terminal Server Project 21:58:10 hm so thin clients? 21:58:12 okay 21:59:28 Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account? 21:59:30 .xinitrc too 21:59:36 if you use X 21:59:47 ais523, did you ever actually write down Eodermdrone's command set? 22:00:18 I wrote it on the wiki, didn't I? 22:00:36 yep 22:00:37 Not as far as I can see... 22:00:39 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome 22:00:50 it doesn't actually have any commands, that's a complete description of how it works 22:00:56 Oh, I kind of see it. 22:00:59 what makes you think all esolangs have to be based on commands? 22:01:05 It is X; that is what the terminal loads. It uses the graphical login screen and then loads that account in the X session (I think it is the GNOME session). I configured my account to start the bash terminal window at login, but I don't know how to make it automatically maximize the window. 22:02:03 ais523, no, I just skimmed the syntax section. 22:02:19 So I assumed that there was a predefined command set. 22:04:39 So, do I start on the parser or the interpreter? 22:05:53 what parser? 22:06:01 Everything seems much less crashy without Compiz 22:06:19 alise, for Eodermdrome. 22:06:28 Phantom_Hoover: what parser? 22:06:47 The one that goes from list of characters to assertions in Prolog. 22:06:57 *a list 22:07:17 Phantom_Hoover: using dcgs i hope 22:07:55 Distributed Common Ground Systems? 22:07:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Parser_example 22:09:13 Is theree a way to disable all of the options in the menu and use .xinitrc instead? 22:09:22 zzo38: maybe. 22:09:26 maybe not. 22:10:17 O, it says graphical login manager do not use .xinitrc it says I need .xsession instead. 22:10:58 -!- augur has joined. 22:11:31 It took way too long for Akinator to guess "Yes-man" "Some Guy Who Always Presses "Yes"" 22:15:32 (Also, I do not have administrative privilege on that computer) 22:16:03 Languages suck. 22:17:42 ais523: Please make a language that doesn't suck. 22:19:07 Why do they suck this time? 22:19:36 All reasons! 22:20:02 Let's focus on a specific area. 22:20:11 Why do arithmetic operators suck? 22:21:43 Because. 22:23:20 What sucks about the + operator? 22:23:25 EVERYTHING 22:23:35 alise, such as? 22:23:37 it requires multithreading to implement efficiently in INTERCAL 22:23:43 ais523: yes, that. 22:23:44 alise, what? +? 22:23:49 err 22:23:50 ais523, ^ 22:24:05 Vorpal: two threads; one to do the addition, the other to check when it's finished 22:24:10 ais523, haha 22:24:22 ais523, is that what the standard library does? 22:24:27 no, it uses a less efficient version 22:24:31 no threading in the stdlib 22:24:36 ais523, but you optimise it? 22:24:38 iirc 22:24:47 it doesn't optimise all the way down to addition 22:24:55 alise, INTERCAL doesn't suck! 22:24:55 ais523, oh? why not? 22:24:57 (unless you link a stdlib written in C rather than INTERCAL) 22:25:00 hm 22:25:04 Vorpal: because it only optimises individual statements 22:25:08 Nor does dc! 22:25:12 and INTERCAL addition requires a loop (or a very very very large expression) 22:25:14 ais523, ah 22:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash 22:25:39 I think the stdlib version loops once per bit 22:25:47 I think the stdlib version loops once per bit