00:00:10 If they don't publish their methods, you cannot know what the experiment means at all, if in fact there is one, which there might not be! 00:00:12 Should I format the external HD? 00:00:15 and if 10000 independent groups all reproduced those results, all without publishing the methods? 00:00:22 10,000 drunk hobos. 00:00:46 but i don't see how you can argue in that case that the result has not been independently verified 00:01:06 It's 10,000 completely different experiments which claim to be the same. 00:01:07 the basic structure of the experiment is the same, and it is that structure that makes the desired argument 00:01:20 None of which can be reproduced. 00:01:29 And, indeed, could be quite easily *made up*. 00:01:34 As such, 10,000 drunk hobos. 00:01:48 If you're talking about my plots the answer is "no, because I just went to sleep". (The features those plots used also need quite a lot of comments before they start to make sense at all.) 00:01:58 they can only be *made up* if 10000*x test subjects can all be convinced to lie 00:02:05 I think I'll format the HD first 00:02:12 Indeed. And perhaps they could. 00:02:17 thx fizzie 00:02:22 Or perhaps those test subjects don't exist. 00:02:29 Perhaps, in fact, it's merely claimed they exist. 00:02:42 ah, and they're all actually sock puppets? 00:03:06 well if you're going to argue that, then seeing the logs of the conversations will not convince you either 00:03:07 And I certainly couldn't test it with real people myself, because *I don't even know what they claimed to do*. 00:03:14 because it would just be someone talking to himself 00:03:27 See, with logs of the conversations just about anyone could *do it themselves*. 00:03:49 There could, in fact, be someone testing it and going "That's weird, absolutely *none of that* happened." 00:03:51 unless their subjects had also seen such logs and as such were not fooled 00:04:13 So don't let the subjects see the logs! 00:04:30 "We tested that gravity exists. Yes." This is as equally valid as this experiment. Namely, *it's a fucking hobo*. 00:04:59 Or perhaps you would prefer "We tested that gravity exists. In fact, it's God." 00:05:22 so, do you think that every published experiment that you have not, as yet, independently tried yourself, is nonsense? 00:05:31 i'm sure you take a leap of faith somewhere 00:05:49 No. However, it's complete and utter nonsense unless I could, in fact, *decide not to take it on faith*. 00:05:59 pikhq: Such a statement "We tested that gravity exists. In fact, it's God." is not even meaningful statement. It explains nothing about gravity or about God, or about the experiment you have performed. 00:06:10 zzo38: My point. 00:06:28 pikhq: OK. 00:06:41 pikhq: you could probably do that in this case anyway. just ask them what the methods used were on pain of death if you reveal them, and try them out 00:07:03 quintopia: But not necessarily. 00:07:04 External harddrives are huge 00:07:20 As such, it's not science, but A MOTHERFUCKING HOBO. 00:07:41 as such, you clearly don't care whether or not it is a hobo, since you haven't tried 00:07:50 I don't even care if every single thing said hobo says turns out to be true, ITS STILL A FUCKING HOBO. 00:08:03 personally, i care 00:08:13 I shall beat you with the full disclosure stick. 00:08:18 if a drunken hobo has the secret to a GUT, i want to know about it 00:08:24 The sky is blue. I know this because magical unicorns told me so. 00:08:38 quintopia: Learn. About. Science. NOW. 00:09:00 if there are enough reasons to believe that the hobo is not a crock of shit, i will go ask the hobo myself 00:09:10 quintopia: LEARN ABOUT SCIENCE NOW 00:09:30 boy did i get you wound up... 00:09:39 Yes. Morons do that. 00:09:57 Now learn about science or forevermore sound like a moron who thinks 2+2=þ 00:10:21 2+2 does equal thorn. 00:10:24 quintopia: The sky is, at least sometimes, blue. Grass is often green. 00:10:27 I am God. 00:10:57 Gregor: Oh, right, I forgot about your 123þ counting system. :P 00:11:59 pikhq: Just part of my base-ð numbering system. 00:13:05 Hmm 00:13:14 I can store the logfile right on the new HD 00:14:09 i see the semantic difference between our definitions of valid now. you're talking about results being validated to the general science community, whereas i'm talking about an experiment being valid as a thing-in-itself. the latter is the precursor to the former with transmutation occurring upon publication of methodologies. 00:14:48 quintopia: Okay, so I'm talking about the useful definition and you're talking about the irrelevant one. 00:16:17 That's it. Time to make a stand. 00:16:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:16:47 A stand on a completely unrelated topic. 00:16:57 OH MY I CANT BELIEVE YOU DID THAT 00:17:02 Or rather, a stand on a completely unrelated issue. 00:17:26 Henceforth I decree that #esoteric is for esoteric topics in computing, not just esoteric programming languages :P 00:19:04 Ok 00:19:12 Vorpal: you awake? 00:19:19 -n to get the easy stuff first 00:19:30 Then once that's done, -r3 to attempt the error-laden stuff? 00:20:42 hurray! 00:21:08 pikhq: it's a useful distinction to make nonetheless 00:21:47 quintopia: Yes, the distinction between a hobo saying correct things and a scientist saying correct things. 00:21:54 Please, don't encourage the hobos. 00:22:29 -!- augur has joined. 00:24:54 pikhq: not the distinction i was going for here, but an interesting strawman 00:27:56 Well, BRB 00:28:01 Wish me and my HD luck 00:28:09 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:30:04 to be clearer in the future, i shall refer to the yudkowsky experiments as "validatable" rather than "valid" 00:33:57 i'm playing gramophone diagonally 00:34:10 -!- alise has joined. 00:34:17 i dunno what that means 00:34:18 hi alise 00:34:26 01:33 < nooga> i'm playing gramophone diagonally 00:35:31 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:35:56 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 00:36:10 14:45:48 Extrapolating Moore's law infinitely as evidence for a singularity seems... dodgy. 00:36:14 only Kurzweil does that 00:36:31 14:47:25 And the fact that the good old laws of thermodynamics have *already* started to cap processor clock speeds. 00:36:41 general consensus is that any sane seed AI is going to convert itself to nanotech asap 00:36:48 14:48:28 I mean, we can probably push quite a bit further, but not indefinitely. 00:36:52 you don't need infinite power. 00:37:04 vinyl records are awesome 00:37:05 14:49:26 adiabatic computing could go a long way toward stepping past current heat-related limitations 00:37:08 Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! 00:37:08 Stop trying to boot from the HD! 00:37:09 * SgeoN1 cries 00:37:10 WARNING: Adiabatic computing is quackery 00:37:23 psychedelic metal on vinym records is doubly awesome 00:37:35 vinyl* 00:38:08 Anyone got any idea how "error: unable to fork: Cannot allocate memory" could happen with plenty of memory? 00:38:09 Argh 00:38:21 pikhq: too many procs? 00:38:27 limited memory space allocated to proc table? 00:38:55 Help me alise,! 00:39:04 alise: A mere 56 procs running. 00:39:10 56?! 00:39:16 i've got 2 running 00:39:22 nooga: No, you don't. 00:39:30 htop says that 00:39:37 Your system is *definitely* running more than 2. 00:39:45 Even if your current *shell* is not. 00:39:49 It's randomly refusing to boot into the USB! 00:39:49 oh, 1 running 00:39:53 nooga: ps -A 00:40:00 308 total 00:40:06 -.- ubuntu 00:40:16 Maybe I should boot from CD? But then, if Ubuntu, there's even more delay installing ddrescuee 00:40:18 with apache stack 00:40:26 n'shit 00:40:35 * pikhq turns off nested paging in VirtualBox 00:41:06 Help me! 00:41:15 SgeoN1: Hi. 00:41:25 Nope, that didn't do it. 00:41:27 Boot from CD. 00:42:05 * pikhq shall try qemu 00:42:24 Well, that could only have resulted in more damage to the hd 00:42:25 on TV program "I've Got a Secret": [[GSN ran a revival from April 17 to June 9, 2006 with an all-gay panel.]] 00:42:30 Putting in CD now 00:42:38 "Let's revive 'I've Got a Secret'... but with GAY." 00:43:05 hmm 00:43:06 how many virtualboxen can one nest on a reasonable system before losing interactivity in the inner containers? 00:43:07 no 00:43:26 a few 00:43:30 what OSes 00:44:11 quintopia: With the virtualisation extensions, "a lot". 00:46:17 Finally found the Ubuntu CD 00:46:19 aha 00:46:37 And the comp justsied 00:46:40 Died 00:46:51 14:50:37 We'll be right with some things, but wrong with many, many more. 00:47:01 which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen 00:47:13 (by definition, when a seed AI surpasses human intelligence) 00:47:44 i think a lot of our guesses are ace though 00:47:53 I don't have the external mount 00:48:00 The HD is inside the cokputee 00:48:02 AI-controlled super-economies moving at the speed of light 00:48:08 qemu is rather slow without virtualisation extensions. And I'm too lazy to get KVM set up. 00:48:11 (that involves rebooting) 00:48:18 humans becoming happy complacent pawns in a machine they don't understand 00:48:20 it'll be great 00:48:50 I'll need to install ddrescue 00:48:50 Okay, this may actually be *too slow*. 00:49:24 Which requires putting in the wireless password, which requires x, unless you can give me a tutorial right now about doing that from the commandline 00:50:14 Alise, any lightning fast tutorial? 00:50:20 SgeoN1: Of? 00:50:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: New kernel!). 00:50:39 Connecting to wifi from commandline 00:50:46 SgeoN1: Plug in an Ethernet cable. 00:50:53 N/m 00:50:59 It is basically impossible to do without a graphical tool. 00:51:52 This things ability to boot from USB is sporadic at beat 00:52:21 What do you mean 0 matching items??????? 00:52:23 SgeoN1: You have no idea what parts of the disk are valuable, right? 00:52:37 package is "ddrescue" 00:52:58 quintopia: economies? 00:52:59 Whataoctwareaour e 00:53:01 In a post-scarce world? Why? 00:53:06 What software source? 00:53:08 *post-scarcity? 00:53:23 SgeoN1: Wait, it may actually be gone. 00:53:24 Nope. 00:53:28 universe 00:53:58 SgeoN1: How old is the drive? 00:54:03 alise: post-scarcity? wtf? there are always limitations on material, and a lot of material will be needed to fuel the AI overlords' need for memory and compute power 00:54:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 00:54:15 From 2006 or so 00:54:29 quintopia: The AI can sustain itself; nobody else needs those resources. 00:54:36 Ubuntu is set to spin down disks when unneeded. Wait, no it's not 00:54:49 alise: are you assuming a single AI? 00:55:03 quintopia: That is the only possible outcome. 00:55:14 i think even a single AI, sufficiently distributed, would compete with itself for resources 00:55:33 If there are two Friendly AIs, they will merge. If there are two un-Friendly AIs, we're fucked anyway. If there is a Friendly AI and an un-Friendly AI, whichever started first or improved faster wins. 00:55:44 After an AI has established power, it will be able to prevent another AI from being created. 00:55:54 SgeoN1: Is it installed? 00:55:56 Uh 00:56:03 Ddrescue is not autocompleting 00:56:12 SgeoN1: This is more important first. 00:56:16 SgeoN1: What media are you going to back up to? 00:56:16 -!- EOF has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:56:18 Ugh, do I really want DD_rescue? 00:56:18 alise: what if friendly AIs get lonely not having other higher intelligences to philosophize with? 00:56:21 Yes. 00:56:23 You really want ddrescue. 00:56:24 External hd 00:56:26 You really, really want ddrescue. 00:56:27 File on 00:56:30 SgeoN1: It is big enough, right? 00:56:43 And not _ ? Ok 00:56:46 Yes 00:56:50 quintopia: You are anthropomorphising. There is no reason an AI would have any desire to do those things. 00:56:59 SgeoN1: Mount the external HD. DO NOT MOUNT THE BROKEN HD. 00:57:33 SgeoN1: dd_rescue != ddrescue, btw 00:57:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:57:37 I'm assuming we're using GNU ddrescue here. 00:57:42 Gddrescue then 00:57:56 Whatever. 00:58:03 -n to get the easy stuff, -r3 for the rest, right? 00:58:06 SgeoN1: Am I right in thinking you have no idea where the valuable stuff is? 00:58:09 Hey, I'm trying to help you here. 00:58:18 Okay, are you in the mounted external HD? 00:58:31 SgeoN1 00:58:38 alise: you are deanthropomorphizing, there is no reason a human-created AI wouldn't have those tendencies grandfathered in 00:58:48 Physically, or directorywise? 00:58:54 quintopia: Coding an AI to feel loneliness would be a near-fatal mistake. 00:58:59 also, in general, there is no reason an AI would NOT have those desires 00:59:00 And it would certainly not be Friendly. 00:59:02 SgeoN1: Directorywise. 00:59:11 I have some idea 00:59:11 quintopia: Please read "Creating Friendly AI". Thanks. 00:59:16 SgeoN1: What? 00:59:28 alise: it's long. ijust started but i don't have time tonight 00:59:38 Documents and Settings, and one or two files in the root, I think 00:59:48 CWEB treats words like "elif" which are preprocessor commands as reserved words, but are they reserved words? 00:59:50 quintopia: Well, your opinion about loneliness is very wrong. I suggest finishing CFAI :P 01:00:02 SgeoN1: That's not helpful; you need to know sectors and shit. Okay, right, so, cd into the external HD. 01:00:05 in any case, there are other reasons an AI might want multiple versions of itself, or independent copies simultaneously running competing for resources etc. 01:00:21 You said directorywise 01:00:23 Ok 01:00:31 SgeoN1: I meant directorywise as far as cding. 01:00:37 Oh 01:00:39 SgeoN1: Okay, so, 01:00:43 loneliness was a stupid way of putting it. i was simplifying an uber-intelligences motivations for a human audience 01:00:46 SgeoN1: It is partitioned, right? The rescuable disk. 01:00:57 SgeoN1: Or not? 01:00:57 I think I know what to do 01:01:01 Hmm, I guess not. 01:01:06 SgeoN1: Erm, let's stick to the plan here. 01:01:08 Ddrescue -n oldhd imgfile logfile 01:01:09 You could permanently break your disk. 01:01:20 SgeoN1: It is sda, right? 01:01:21 The drive? 01:01:32 SgeoN1: ... 01:01:42 Ddrescue -r3 Oldfield mewing logfile 01:01:43 Rifht 01:01:44 With a semicolon in betweeen? 01:01:45 No. 01:01:52 SgeoN1: Please answer my question. 01:01:58 Not sure 01:02:02 Hold on 01:02:03 ls /dev/sd* 01:02:09 Run that, please. 01:02:12 I need to know if it's partitioned. 01:03:03 SgeoN1: ? 01:03:12 Crap 01:03:18 I typed stuff in, dammit 01:03:20 *CLAP CLAP CLAP* 01:03:29 I meant into irc 01:03:32 Oh 01:03:55 /Dev/sda1 /Dev/sea /Dev/sda4 01:04:11 Sda 01:04:15 o_O 01:04:21 Okay, let's just rescue the entire thing. 01:04:24 Your partition table looks fucked. 01:04:25 Wait a sec. 01:04:27 pikhq: ^ 01:04:30 Just checking pikhq agrees. 01:04:40 What's wrong with the ddrescue commands I typed? 01:04:55 Well, definitely don't run them automatically after another, and the latter one is wrong. 01:04:58 Can you just be patient? 01:04:58 Your partition table looks weird. 01:05:01 Yeah. 01:05:04 pikhq: So let's just rescue the whole disk? 01:05:05 That's *valid* but weird. 01:05:08 Not the individual partitions. 01:05:10 alise: I'd say "yeah". 01:05:11 I mean, he has dropped the thing. 01:05:18 SgeoN1: Okay, type this very precisely and hit enter: 01:05:19 See what ddrescue gets. 01:05:29 sudo ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile 01:05:33 Veeery precisely. 01:05:45 It will flag up a ton of errors, I bet. 01:05:47 That's fine. 01:05:57 I didn't put the euro in 01:06:01 I'm at a root prompt 01:06:08 Sudo 01:06:25 Doit. 01:06:29 ? 01:06:36 eh 01:06:39 i 01:06:40 SgeoN1: Euro? 01:06:44 Yes, do it. 01:06:48 i'ma have to leave now or forever hold my lameness 01:06:54 quintopia: wat 01:06:58 Gypped sudo 01:07:03 have work to do 01:07:09 need to not procrastinate anymore 01:08:10 SgeoN1: Is it going? 01:08:25 It's doing stuff 01:08:25 And errors are coming up 01:08:28 Good. 01:08:42 Expected. 01:08:51 How long will this take? 01:09:02 Anywhere from hours to days. 01:09:15 It's a function of how fucked up the drive is. 01:09:32 Ok then. What do I do when it's done? What was wrong with NY second command? 01:09:33 SgeoN1: And now, BOOKMARK THIS URL IN YOUR MOBILE BROWSER: 01:09:34 http://pastie.org/1169085.txt?key=cmgt84evfis2qjczs7cg 01:09:42 It has all the instructions for after that, very precisely written out. 01:10:05 This will get you a drive in your hand that has your old drive on it. 01:10:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:11:03 Except with more of the data readily accessible. 01:11:10 Can I proceed to use Ubuntu normally in the meantime? 01:11:41 Hm 01:11:48 Yes. 01:11:59 No Vorpal here? 01:12:05 Ah, sleeping 01:12:25 pikhq: Yes, just don't touch the drive. 01:12:27 Oh, and if you ever need to restart the job, just rerun the ddrescue command. It'll pick up from where it left off. 01:12:27 Erm. 01:12:31 SgeoN1. 01:12:34 What pikhq said. 01:12:37 But that's not how you deal with errors. 01:12:49 SgeoN1: Type this URL in your Ubuntu browser very carefully then put it on the desktop or whatever so you don't lose it: 01:12:52 Yeah, it's just how you deal with "I need to shut off my computer". 01:12:53 http://pastie.org/1169085.txt?key=cmgt84evfis2qjczs7cg 01:12:57 If you want a shorter URL i can get that. 01:13:07 SgeoN1: 01:13:12 http://bit.ly/bmW8YW 01:13:14 PUT THIS ON YOUR DESKTOP. 01:13:34 What's wrong with leaving it on the phone? 01:14:19 SgeoN1: Well, that works too. 01:14:26 I just thought it'd be easier to copy-and-paste from the main machine. 01:17:39 1656 kB/s 01:18:02 This is going to take a while, isn't it? 01:19:25 SgeoN1: How big is the drive? 01:19:34 100GB 01:20:07 SgeoN1: 17.59 hours. 01:20:13 SgeoN1: I assume it's still spewing errors? 01:20:23 Yep 01:20:27 SgeoN1: If so, then that won't be the end of it, since you'll still have the second and maybe even the third command to run. 01:20:32 And you might even have to increase the retries on that. 01:20:34 And the average speed keeps going down 01:20:47 SgeoN1: You can, as pikhq said, just terminate it and continue it later using *exactly the same* command. 01:20:53 (Check the logs if you do so do get it exact.) 01:21:06 Might be prudent to overnight it, though. 01:21:11 SgeoN1: How big's the external drive? 01:21:39 Hey, I can keep using the computer while it goes, so what's the problem? Just don't take the computer on my lap 01:21:46 250GB 01:22:53 SgeoN1: Will you be awake in 17 hours? 01:23:02 No 01:23:04 Also, yeah, keep the computer SEATED AT A TABLE FOREVER. 01:23:07 Probably not 01:24:32 oerjan: i have an idea 01:24:42 let's stop enforcing Graue's ludicrous category policy 01:24:46 :P 01:25:37 Is having Ubuntus thing to spin down disks when posssble acceptable? 01:26:47 * oerjan swats alise -----### 01:27:02 oerjan: well, hey, it's an idea. 01:27:07 SgeoN1: don't worry. that disk will never get spun down. 01:27:13 and it being spinned down is good 01:27:30 alise: given how annoying i just found out it was _renaming_ a category, let's not 01:28:19 I seem to have access to a VMS system 01:30:22 Any ideas on what I can do to explore it? 01:31:11 Average rate went down to 707 01:31:19 683 01:33:22 SgeoN1: you might try the help command 01:34:01 * oerjan recalls it was wonderfully hierarchical 01:34:48 For all I know, this is what runs the school's main ... styff 01:35:01 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 01:35:24 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 01:35:50 it even included individual commands for some programming languages 01:36:08 Cobol 01:36:42 * oerjan recalls there was a lisp 01:36:59 568 01:38:09 538 01:39:13 i think it was pascal that had the individual command thing 01:39:18 This is going to take a very long time, isn't it? 01:50:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Sweden is screwed). 01:55:29 About 3 and a half days 01:56:32 Most of the data I don't honestly care about 01:56:52 Any way to, say, use TestDisk and just take only what I really care about? 01:59:25 Maaybe. I'd just do this. 02:00:18 I wonder if my professor would be ok with me not bringing my laptop in on Monday 02:00:27 I can still do work from my phone 02:02:15 If the average goes down to 3.3 KB/s or so, may I give up? 02:03:00 Wow. It is estimated the LSD of marijuana is 1500 *pounds*. 02:03:08 Erm. 02:03:11 LD50 02:03:14 Not LSD 02:03:19 Amusing slip there. 02:03:21 FREUD! 02:04:21 -!- alise_ has joined. 02:05:43 so basically it's lethal only by crushing the victim? 02:06:00 oerjan: Or via carbon monoxide. 02:06:09 Afaict, so far, 99.5% of the data is being saved 02:06:13 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 02:06:24 ah yes, suffocation 02:06:36 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:07:06 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:07:47 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit). 02:08:06 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:11:09 goodnight 02:11:09 bye 02:11:10 -!- alise_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:11:29 Awesome. Ubuntu thinks it's Puppy Linux 02:11:29 With Flash crashing every two seconds 02:11:29 Night alise 02:11:57 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:12:23 -!- augur has joined. 02:13:00 4.3 days 02:13:28 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:13:34 -!- quintopia has joined. 02:16:07 -!- SgeoN2 has joined. 02:16:08 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:16:15 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:25:06 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:27:46 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:29:01 How long a wait is too long? 02:29:27 42 years 02:29:42 It occurs to me that I have an ancient computer that I could devote to the task 02:29:46 Two, actually 02:31:19 You forgot the rule of two and a half 02:31:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:37:12 And also the rule of five!! 02:46:02 -!- tswett has joined. 02:46:10 Who invented kilgame? Was it lament? 02:46:36 * oerjan thought he hadn't seen warrigal for a while 02:46:44 Hi, oerjan. 02:46:50 No, I don't think you've seen me for a while. 02:46:51 also, what's kilgame 02:47:28 kilgame was this IRC game where you had a "kill" command so that you could shoot people, and you can only shoot once every 60 seconds, and once you're shot by two different people you're out of the game. 02:48:08 * oerjan doesn't recall ever seeing it 02:49:22 clearly you are an evil tswett from an alternate dimension 02:49:34 No, definitely not! 02:49:48 you _would_ say that 02:50:01 Would I do such a thing? 02:50:10 I can't believe you'd accuse me of this. 02:50:49 well since kilgame doesn't exist in this universe (although there are other games by the same name), that is the only reasonable explanation. 02:51:40 in fact ""kilgame" irc" gives _no_ google hits 02:51:56 (nor does ""kilgame" site:tunes.org") 02:52:47 " oklopol: I see you've managed to get #kilbot." 02:53:04 That was... whatever day 07.07.06 is. 02:53:22 WB warrihal 02:53:24 Warrigal 02:53:30 Hi Sheo. 02:53:33 >.> 02:53:37 Assuming it is you... 02:53:43 Yep, it's me. 02:54:04 I'm connected from arch06.cis.gvsu.edu; who else could it be? 02:54:06 * SgeoN1 is close to falling asleep 02:54:18 A hallucinogen 02:54:39 Brought about by lack of restfulbsleep 02:54:43 Being close to falling asleep is a fun hallucinogen. 02:55:09 * tswett attempts to determine oklopol's real name. 02:55:13 If Agora doesn't know, nobody knows. 02:55:17 I'm in a pizza place 02:55:25 And I want to just take a nap 02:56:24 tswett: ok that does help your case somewhat 02:56:39 * oerjan still has onokki somewhere 02:56:57 of course i haven't really deleted anything since then, so not surprising 03:01:01 tswett: see msg (he doesn't really want it in the open iirc) 03:05:27 It is currently projected to take 7.5 weeks..... 03:06:06 -!- SgeoN2 has joined. 03:06:11 SgeoN1: you should start getting _really_ worried when it says INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER 03:06:18 Erm, 7 weeks and half a day 03:06:36 Lol 03:07:15 -!- augur has joined. 03:07:19 The guiding motive for the Singularity AI is recovering my data 03:09:41 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:12:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:13:05 Is the speed at all a function of other stuff that I'm doing with the computer? 03:13:58 no, it just senses your fear of it stalling 03:14:58 I'm more afraid of it taking years 03:15:14 THEN THAT'S WHAT IT WILL DO 03:17:11 flash keeps crashing 03:17:21 I wonder if it's an old version 03:17:48 I.e. whatever Puppy Linux ships with 03:19:14 It's fun to crash in Sgeo's face! Come on just do segfault; crash in Sgeo's face 03:19:32 Ok, it's the newest version 03:22:39 Now that I closed a bunch of stuff, it's speedinbhp 03:23:18 Tremendously 03:24:42 I can just Ctrl-C this, right? 03:24:43 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Quit: Bye). 03:25:17 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:25:30 I appear to be unable to end it 03:25:43 There we go 03:26:29 ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile 03:27:40 Oh look, everything works now 03:28:04 Ill reissue the command before I go to sleep 03:28:16 Is there a way to be certain that the HD is spun down? 03:28:39 Any easy way to check? 03:29:07 can smartmon tell you? 03:30:00 Command not found 03:30:54 oh, I was expecting you to look into it a bit more than issuing a command lol 03:31:11 I think the package is smartmontools 03:31:31 checking 03:33:28 oh, smartmontools is only for ata 03:33:34 not for sat 03:33:37 sata 03:45:09 SgeoN1: sudo hdparm -C /dev/sda 03:46:18 active/idle 03:46:38 I take it that that is not, in fact, spun down? 03:46:51 Hey eso 03:47:03 yeah probably not 03:47:22 Um. I think ill take the HD out then just set up my old comp 03:47:25 you can do a -B 1 to have aggressive power saving 03:47:59 Check the current IDE power mode status, which will always be 03:47:59 one of unknown (drive does not support this command), 03:47:59 active/idle (normal operation), standby (low power mode, drive 03:47:59 has spun down), or sleeping (lowest power mode, drive is com‐ 03:47:59 pletely shut down). The -S, -y, -Y, and -Z flags can be used to 03:48:00 manipulate the IDE power modes. 03:48:09 The reason I want it spun down is to avoid damaging it further 03:48:34 then you might as well unplug it 03:50:15 * calamari- tries -Y just for the hell of it 03:51:31 well it worked, but since the machine is probably writing tothe drive all the time, it just powered back up immediately.. cool tho 03:52:42 This thing will boot from USB only when it wants to 03:56:01 I can't figure out why it wont boot 03:56:22 Is there a way to have the Ubuntu LiveCD check the USB for data files 04:05:32 -!- augur has joined. 04:10:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:14:47 -!- augur has joined. 04:19:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:23:42 -!- augur has joined. 04:28:28 I don't like the \outer command 04:29:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:29:31 http://www.thathigh.com/story/2776983/ 04:32:02 Something I found out about TeX, is that the \csname command will cause the named control sequence to be equivalent to \relax is that control sequence is currently undefined. 04:36:52 -!- augur has joined. 04:38:38 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:39:59 What the fuck? 04:40:11 How is it almost Monday already? 04:40:27 Very carefully. 04:40:37 what do you mean "almost", you bloody american 04:41:16 3:20 hours left 04:41:19 till mon 04:41:40 ;) 04:41:40 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:42:01 * trinithis wonders if augur can forsee his own quitting 04:42:07 The fricking fuck. It felt like Friday or Saturday 04:43:05 I had hoped to take a shower on the wekend, (no hot water in this house) 04:43:32 I don't know I'd I even have clean clothing 04:43:35 Bibble 04:45:04 Sio 04:51:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:02:22 -!- augur has joined. 05:03:05 -!- augur has quit (Client Quit). 05:08:30 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 05:08:40 How do I see what processes are using a filesystem? 05:10:52 N/m 05:11:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:14:16 wuzzup? 05:16:16 oh, Sgeo is discovering the magic of lsof 05:16:30 you can also use it to find who's listening on which port you know 05:23:23 I have idea, of a new programming language with similar use as C, but different syntax, and that takes things from: TeX, C, Forth, WEB, and assembler. 05:23:50 explain plox 05:24:27 From C: Data types, structures, preprocessor macros, preprocessor include, unions, pointers, function pointers, storage classes, arrays. 05:24:51 From TeX: Category codes (and the ability to change them during compile time), and penalties (which you can insert anywhere in the program). 05:25:44 From Forth: reverse polish notation, immediate words, ability to create new control structures like Forth, ability to create parsers for reading a few extra words after a command. 05:26:33 Does casper-rw not work anymore? 05:26:35 O, and also explicit command to tell it you want to retrieve the value of a variable, by writing @ sign after the address (or name of variable, or something else). 05:28:23 From assembly language: Ability to enter direct CPU instructions/registers/etc, and things close to it but that might be more cross-platform. 05:28:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:30:46 is the goal to produce something really usable? 05:32:46 quintopia: Yes it would be usable. 05:33:05 And it would also have commands to have a lot of control over the optimizer and other things if needed. 05:34:07 could be interesting 05:47:23 When programming in TeX, I often find it useful to change category codes in the middle of the file, sometimes conditionally. 05:47:48 i, uh, just use the conference-provided templates >.> 05:48:12 quintopia: What conference-provided templates? 05:48:48 depends on the conference/journal 05:48:58 NIPS has a pretty nice one 05:49:10 APA use the same one for all their journals i think 05:49:12 AMS too 05:49:51 OK. I don't write TeX documents for conferences or journals, I write them for myself, so I just use Plain TeX, and then add whatever macros and other things are needed for the file I am writing. 05:50:21 I don't like to use LaTeX, because I prefer Plain TeX. 05:51:22 I sometimes find it very useful to change category codes temporarily for use with the \read and \write commands, and sometimes have a file include itself. 05:52:02 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 05:52:22 what's the minimum one would need to do to make plain TeX turing-complete? 05:52:51 add a brainfuck eval() via an escape sequence 05:53:04 maybe thats not the type of answer you were looking for though 05:53:35 that seems like far too much to add 05:53:47 since the thing you are adding is turing-complete in itself 05:53:58 its a deliberately degenerate solution 05:54:23 quintopia: TeX is turing complete. You just have to know how to program it! 05:54:28 sweet! 05:54:32 how? 05:54:53 postscript is turing complete also, isnt it? 05:57:20 I could write a brainfuck interpreter in TeX, or other things, if I wanted to. You can also see the yesweb codes for an example of a full program in TeX. 05:58:00 http://sprunge.us/BYYJ 05:58:44 what is yesweb supposed to do? 05:58:51 This program shows a lot of techniques of programming in TeX. 05:59:50 Here is an example file using yesweb: http://sprunge.us/aADQ 06:00:19 This example file generates two things: a printed document, and a C source code file. 06:00:48 mycroftiv: Yes, Postscript is 06:00:51 TC 06:01:04 i recall a cute story from a friend who had a job doing university IT 06:01:27 is yesweb some kind of macro system built on top of TeX? 06:01:32 some clever comp sci student decided to print out tickets to some event that had a lot of algorithmically generated using postscript 06:01:44 Actually this example file generates a printed document and two C source files, "hello.c" and "goodbye.c". 06:01:56 quintopia: Yes, yesweb is a kind of macro system built on top of TeX. 06:02:05 the IT lab printer seemed to be 'frozen' for hours and then suddenly came to life printing out tickets where each ticket had a huge amount of unique data procedurally generated 06:02:08 It is implemented entirely in TeX. 06:04:42 It does a few strange things, such as temporarily making the lowercase "n" into a comment character (like "%" is normally). 06:05:01 weird 06:06:07 The stuff between \z and @z is verbatim text, everything there treats all characters as normal characters. 06:07:09 The exception is the \webescape character, which must be doubled if you want to include that character verbatim. (Normally an at sign, but it can be changed using the \webescape command.) 06:07:55 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:08:34 how does looping work? 06:09:28 The stuff in between \z and @z will be printed in monospace text with a border around it, and will also be copied to the output files (which in this case have the ".c" extension, but they don't have to be C codes, they can be any text files). 06:09:31 -!- lament has joined. 06:09:38 Looping works in TeX using the \loop ... \repeat commands. 06:10:17 You can have like \loop\ABC\iftrue\XYZ\repeat so you can have codes both before and after the condition. 06:11:39 That is how you can do loops in TeX. 06:12:19 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:16:23 You might like to know that loops are not built-in to primitive TeX. Plain TeX is a macro package implemented in primitive TeX, and Plain TeX defines the commands for loops. 06:20:01 but Plain TeX is written entirely in TeX? 06:22:52 Yeah. 06:23:04 It's the macros that TeX ships with to make it at least *somewhat* usable. 06:23:18 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 06:27:18 http://stashbox.org/729975/nooooo.jpg 06:27:38 oooooblubblub...blub 06:27:47 Primitive Tex doesn't have loops but loops can be made in it? Is this similar to if else then not being builtin to Forth? 06:29:32 SgeoN1: Very much so. 06:44:25 SgeoN1: Yes, like that. 06:44:51 (Some Forth systems do have IF ELSE THEN built-in, others do not. In the ones that do not, you can implement them.) 06:52:34 -!- augur has joined. 06:58:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw 07:00:02 -!- tombom has joined. 07:02:30 yesweb contains various strange things, but it is how TeX works. It changes category codes a lot, changes output routines, has macros that redefine themself and other macros, macros that call themself, macros that define macros that define macros that define other macros, the \expandafter command and \csname commands are used a bunch of times..... 07:02:51 Actually, I find the \expandafter and \csname commands useful when using TeX. 07:03:21 How often do *you* use those commands? 07:06:48 Vorpal: you awake? <-- morning 07:06:52 SgeoN1, ^ 07:07:42 zzo38, never I think 07:07:52 zzo38, never used them in LaTeX 07:08:04 (and I don't use plain text directly) 07:08:08 plain tex* 07:09:43 Vorpal: OK. But I must say I find Plain TeX *much* better than LaTeX. I also find LaTeX bloated and stuff. 07:10:46 Meh, sleep now 07:11:09 I think I wanted to ask something about the HD issue 07:11:35 But right now, it's again out of the comp, will be using old computer to do the stuff 07:11:41 Ninight 07:11:43 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:15:17 OK 07:15:19 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 07:34:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:48:09 I'm a free market communist 07:49:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:50:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 07:50:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:50:39 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:37 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:01:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 08:02:34 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:07:01 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:17:26 -!- cheater99 has joined. 08:23:26 -!- calamari- has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:24:16 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:32:47 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:51:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:07:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:08:09 -!- augur has joined. 09:11:05 16:47:01 which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen ← true, but you presuppose many things about it which aren't as certain as made out. 09:15:27 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:20:17 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:24:38 -!- jcp has joined. 10:02:40 Whoa, why hadn't I seen the awesomeity of http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html before? (Caution: is probably not the fastest thing ever if you actually want to run something.) 10:06:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:22:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:35:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:36:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:40:01 -!- atrapado has joined. 11:43:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:55:34 Heh, here are typical sentences from alise and Vorpal: 11:55:36 >>> str(h_a.sampleSingle(50)) 11:55:36 'celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts' 11:55:36 >>> str(h_v.sampleSingle(50)) 11:55:36 "olsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec" 11:58:03 To what end are you doing this? 12:02:31 Why, for fun, of course. 12:11:40 To make alisebot? 12:12:50 No, for classificationary purposes. 12:13:00 Though it doesn't work really *that* well. 12:14:58 Whom do you plan to classify? 12:15:02 Those same h_a/h_v models that generated that nonsense up there classified 61% of alise-comments as alise, and 71% of Vorpal-comments as Vorpal; that's not very much better than random chance. But at least it does something sensible for a single comment, unlike the book-authorship statistics, which need bazillion lines before they can make any sort of sensible decisions at all. 12:16:35 Could try with a lot larger models, there's certainly enough training data. Those were 14-state discrete-emission HMM's with this sort of constrained structure -- http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hmm.png -- and initial transition probs; and uniform-distribution emissions in each state before training. 12:16:58 I like the "Ahu-onrts" bit, though. 13:20:49 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:22:11 -!- jcp has joined. 13:25:00 Why is living in the future so boring?? 13:25:25 I mean, you would have thought someone would have made some kind of jetpack, but noooooo. 13:28:01 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:31:41 -!- jcp has joined. 13:31:55 Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean they haven't made jetpacks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetpack -- "Jet pack T-73, flight time 9 minutes, max distance 11 miles, ~83 mph, $200,000 incl. training". 13:33:51 (Not that they actually sell one anywhere, but still.) 13:34:35 Yay! 13:35:39 Now, where's the moon base? 13:36:10 On the moon? 13:36:16 (What a silly question.) 13:39:49 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:42:41 -!- jcp has joined. 13:43:36 fizzie, where on the moon? 13:43:53 They don't tell that sort of info to us civilians. 13:51:47 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:55:42 fizzie, well, launching a mission to the moon is hardly low-key. 13:56:32 Ticket To The Moon. 13:58:11 -!- jcp has joined. 14:00:59 * Phantom_Hoover → walk 14:01:36 Walk To The Moon? 14:05:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:07:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:16:01 -!- nooga has joined. 14:16:18 gagag 14:44:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:14:58 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:16:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:17:01 -!- augur has joined. 15:25:34 -!- sftp has joined. 15:27:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:31:05 i just did my laundry, feels good 15:31:18 that means i can program a washing machine! 15:34:22 Aww 15:34:33 XChat-GNOME doesn't automatically set me away when I go away from the thingy 15:35:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:35:49 GOD DAMMIT JOSIAH STOP SNEEZING. I WANT COFFEE 15:36:28 -!- augur has joined. 15:44:48 pikhq has jumped the sneeze 15:54:36 -!- webquint has joined. 15:55:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:57:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:12:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:13:09 &fsckperl 16:13:30 -!- alise has joined. 16:14:30 -!- augur_ has joined. 16:14:36 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:15:19 Well motherfucking hell. My car battery died. 16:15:39 I'll have to wait for parents to get home so I can actually get a new one. 16:15:52 My battery car died. 16:15:57 Now I can't drive my battery to places. 16:16:12 And I'm missing a test today. Here's hoping my prof. lets me do the test at a later date. 16:16:12 pikhq: Any luck with NixOS? I have the LiveCD working on USB. 16:16:16 So I can install it, theoretically. 16:16:22 alise: I've got it installed in a VM. 16:16:27 Not done anything with it, though. 16:16:29 pikhq: How boring. 16:16:35 The solution to all my problems was to use qemu. 16:16:56 pikhq: With qemu, it runs unbelievably slowly for me. 16:17:01 I guess you have virtualisation support. 16:17:28 18:03:00 Wow. It is estimated the LSD of marijuana is 1500 *pounds*. 16:17:29 This class is _far_ more convenient to do with Ubuntu than Windows 16:17:34 Most confusing phrase EVER. 16:17:43 Sgeo: Everything is etc. 16:17:44 alise: Yeah, I've got it using KVM. 16:17:46 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:17:52 pikhq: Fuck you and your good hardware >:( 16:18:00 alise: You could use kqemu. 16:18:03 pikhq: Can I have your virtualisation module to plug into my processor? 16:18:06 pikhq: kqemu no longer exists. 16:18:12 "Because fuck you." 16:18:20 Wait what? 16:18:20 Oh, Gentoo must be patching its qemu, then. 16:18:27 What happened to kqemu? 16:18:31 Sgeo: Deprecated. 16:18:34 Sgeo: Apparently KVM. 16:18:37 Not on the site any more, not in the latest release. 16:18:39 Also, what pikhq said. 16:18:43 Which requires virtualisation support. 16:18:51 Because my life is worthlooooh, it can use Xen. 16:18:54 Does Perl have first-class functions? 16:18:58 Can Xen do stuff without virtualisation support? 16:18:58 Sgeo: Yes. 16:19:01 &foo 16:19:09 Uh, wait. 16:19:10 No. 16:19:12 Um, yes. 16:19:13 My professor didn't seem to understand what I was asking when I said "store subroutine in a variable" 16:19:14 But not like that. 16:19:15 Ask ais523. 16:19:24 Sgeo: well that's a stupid way of putting it :) 16:19:36 "Get a reference to a subroutine". 16:19:44 Sgeo: it has first-class references to subroutines 16:19:58 and you can store those in variables 16:20:17 ais523: what's the syntax? 16:20:19 not &foo 16:20:23 and as subroutines are read-only (although you can create the things dynamically using lambdas), a reference to a subroutine is equivalent to the subroutine itself, except in terms of syntax 16:20:24 *foo? 16:20:26 and \&foo 16:20:28 ahh 16:20:31 for a reference to subroutine foo 16:20:37 just like \$foo would be a reference to scalar foo 16:20:38 ais523: not \foo because that's sort of ambiguous, right? 16:20:45 that's more meaningless than ambiguous 16:20:50 because foo() is just shorthand for &foo(), right? 16:20:58 no, it passes arguments differently 16:21:14 It's more than just whether you can do it before or after being defined? 16:21:17 * Sgeo headaches 16:21:19 old-fashioned subroutine call: @_ = ("arg1, "arg2"); &foo; 16:21:27 new subroutine cal: foo("arg1","arg2") 16:21:31 *call 16:21:34 Heh, here are typical sentences from alise and Vorpal: 16:21:34 >>> str(h_a.sampleSingle(50)) 16:21:34 'celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts' 16:21:34 >>> str(h_v.sampleSingle(50)) 16:21:34 "olsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec" 16:21:36 err? 16:21:39 I think she's showing us old-fashioned 16:21:40 and @_ is managed for you, it even restores the original value 16:21:46 Oh, wait 16:21:53 old-fashioned subroutine call: @_ = ("arg1, "arg2"); &foo; 16:21:58 surely even old perl didn't make you do that 16:22:01 No, just old-fashioned using it, not old-fashioned subroutine call 16:22:03 alise: yes, it did 16:22:07 ais523: :-D 16:22:12 in fact, using @_ may have just been convention 16:22:24 DB<1> @_ = ("Hello, world!\n"); &print; 16:22:25 Undefined subroutine &main::print called at (eval 6)[/usr/share/perl/5.10/perl5db.pl:638] line 2. 16:22:27 Bah. 16:22:29 How racist. 16:22:31 print isn't a subroutine 16:22:34 I know. 16:22:35 How racist. 16:22:36 it's a builtin function 16:22:38 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 16:22:48 Of all the days, I had to miss class on the day of a test. 16:22:51 Old-fashioned use of @_ within the body 16:22:54 pikhq: would NixOS paravirtualise properly? 16:22:59 pikhq: also, no public transport? 16:23:00 even more fun, you had to scope @_ yourself 16:23:03 Sgeo: err 16:23:06 that's not old-fashioned 16:23:07 alise: It's the US. 16:23:11 that's how you do arguments in perl 16:23:14 although it had a rather useful "local" keyword, which means "change the value now, restore it at the end of the block" 16:23:19 pikhq: lol @ your country sucks 16:23:24 "local" still exists, but "my" is used more often, as it does actual scoping 16:23:28 rather than just INTERCAL-style stashing 16:23:36 And yes, NixOS ought to paravirtualise properly. It's only the kernel that's involved in that. 16:23:44 ais523: I think Sgeo may need some therapy to realise that you manually shift @_ to do arguments in regular Perl. 16:23:54 pikhq: How hellish is setting up Xen? 16:23:59 Not very. 16:24:09 alise: well, it's very flexible 16:24:11 It isn't only INTERCAL that stashes/retrieves variables in that way, dc also has a command to do something similar. 16:24:15 Sounds hellish to me. 16:24:16 Perhaps more-so on not-Gentoo, though. 16:24:27 but if you stick to conventions, it's just the same as normal argument passing 16:24:32 I'd *imagine* the only painful bit would be setting up bridging. 16:24:35 pikhq: Nix's single-configuration-mechanism thing is /so cool/. 16:24:46 I'd *imagine* the only painful bit would be setting up bridging. ;; that's the thing, QEMU can use Xen 16:24:52 sub foo {my $a = shift; my $b = shift;} 16:24:53 Somehow! 16:25:04 tailcalls are done by setting up @_ by hand, then doing goto &foo; 16:25:11 ais523: heh 16:25:13 but most people write 16:25:14 alise: That's only for the virtualisation extensions. 16:25:16 my ($a, $b) = @_; 16:25:18 pikhq: osidjfoij 16:25:28 alise: really? I haven't seen that very often 16:25:28 pikhq: Got a kqemu source package? 16:25:33 ais523: o_O 16:25:43 ais523: I have never seen a single person manually shift every argument like you've written. 16:25:51 I have universally seen my ($args, $here) = @_; 16:25:56 at least, =shift is standard in TAEB, and it has some of the sanest Perl code in existence 16:26:02 Random example: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/PERL/node61.html 16:26:16 Random example: http://automatthias.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/perl-argument-passing-weirdness/ 16:26:18 occasionally it refers to elements of @_ directly, when it needs extreme performence 16:26:22 alise: Hmm. Use qemu pre-0.9.1 and http://wiki.qemu.org/download/kqemu-1.3.0pre11.tar.gz . 16:26:28 Random example: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/perl/slides/sub_arguments.html (just one parameter, but still) 16:26:28 *performance 16:26:51 ais523: if it even has functions it's not Ultra Clean Insane Perl ;-) 16:26:55 (when it needs even /more/ extreme performance, it refers to the internals of objects in an encapsulation-breaking manner, but only once and with huge warnings in a comment next to it) 16:27:03 You need MooseX::Declare for that, which has actual method signatures with names. 16:27:14 pikhq: Or just install it on real hardware... 16:27:50 "Alex Smith (ais523)" --TAEB blog. I thought you were still paranoid about that. 16:28:17 It upsets me that TAEB plays Nethack better than I do. 16:28:29 At least with chess I can claim it's a genuinely very difficult game. 16:29:01 ais523: How far has Planar got? 16:29:10 When you say it gets into Sokoban, I presume it goes through the Mines first? 16:29:19 If not, HA HA I AM BETTER THAN TAEB 16:29:22 alise: no, sorear and I were working on TAEB in parallel 16:29:32 ais523: err? 16:29:36 he was working on a mines-completing version of the AI, I was working on a Sokoban-completing version 16:29:36 I meant the name/nick association 16:29:38 so it never does both 16:29:40 oh 16:29:45 alise: I'm guessing people have figured it by now 16:29:45 ais523: was 16:29:46 ? 16:30:01 alise: well, neither of us have worked on it for a while 16:30:07 but I'm not sure how deep sortaeb523 ever got 16:30:09 dormant? 16:30:25 dormant, not abandoned 16:30:32 dlvl 11, it sems 16:30:34 (thanks Rodney!) 16:31:22 "Incidentally, Planar always asks for more information, if it’s available and doesn’t cost a turn, in order to analyse the situation as well as possible; for instance, if the material the golem was made of (relevant because it determines how dangerous it is) were undeducible from its colour on-screen, it would ask the framework to request NetHack to give more details, in this case by sending a farlook command to examine it remotely in detail." 16:31:23 is this automatic? 16:31:33 in Planar, yes; in TAEB, no 16:31:39 i'd hide it all behind a VeryCleverNethackScreen interface 16:31:49 where all information is available, just sometimes it has to request (and cache it) 16:31:58 so you can pretend you have 4D vision, or something, and the depth tells you the farlook info 16:32:00 erm 16:32:01 3D 16:32:29 alise: I seem to remember that there was a huge flamewar on the subject a while ago 16:32:34 o_O 16:32:35 Why? 16:32:47 part of the reason is that some TAEB AIs are content with guesses 16:32:48 pikhq: Incidentally, Alt-F9 on NixOS has an inexplicable Rogue game always started. 16:32:56 Why? Who knows, maybe they just like Rogue. 16:33:05 ais523: then they don't need to request the information 16:33:10 also, that's stupid 16:33:12 farlook isn't exactly cheating 16:33:30 "taking the worst-case scenario; Planar is just as scared of the Random Number Generator as any human would be" 16:33:32 alise: it's not to do with cheating, it's to do with saving time 16:33:34 perhaps it should take risks upon occasion? 16:33:43 ais523: farlook doesn't take a turn or more than a few ms of realtime... 16:33:44 Someone dislikes the "\$betty" that the professor is printing 16:33:52 alise: TAEB's designed for online play 16:33:52 And asks "Why not just print betty"? 16:33:59 it takes a few hundred ms to farlook something 16:34:03 Sgeo: fail 16:34:05 over telnet 16:34:13 ais523: meh 16:34:24 ais523: a proper nethack server would send down all such information with the frame :) 16:34:29 and have the local client display it upon request 16:34:53 "nHackbot owned the (known) high mark for score and dungeon depth for quite some time, achieving a score 18,432 and maximum depth of 10." 16:34:58 err, presumably as far as bots go, not players 16:35:02 :P 16:35:19 yes 16:35:19 "Intrigued by nHackBot and itching to do something similar, Shawn Moore started nhbot in December 2005, using Perl. While nHackBot sought to eventually be a complete bot, nhbot had no such aspirations. It solved the screen parsing problem by not parsing the screen at all, opting instead to read just the top line. Rather than calculating where to move next, it walked around randomly. Eventually, it did gain the ability to read the bottom line in order to kno 16:35:19 w when to engrave Elbereth, but that was the extent of nhbot's sight. nhbot did remarkably well for being so near-sighted, posting a high score of 15,185. However, it did not descend very far, making it only to dungeon level 3." 16:35:23 Top line as in the first one of the screen??? 16:35:25 That's usually blank 16:35:35 it contains messages 16:35:39 like "the jackal hits!" 16:35:41 haha 16:35:44 what a retarded bot 16:36:01 "GreyKnight" -- /that/ GreyKnight? 16:36:18 wait, i don't know a greyknight 16:36:20 thought i did 16:36:46 I think I need a translator 16:37:06 She fails to understand what I'm saying. She thinks I had no clue what was going on, when I just wanted to point something out 16:37:25 alise, heraldic ensignia of Agora? 16:37:38 Sgeo: not the same guy, he had a wikipedia page 16:37:47 but if it is him 16:37:50 then he used to come here too 16:38:10 wait no 16:38:11 it is him 16:38:26 (he'd changed his user page; I found the copy I remember in the history.) 16:40:37 How do you use a reference? 16:40:51 Cleverly. 16:41:08 Is that a joke, or are you trying to give me a nightmare, or... 16:41:10 (I hereby defer horrible Perl questions to ais523, the poor thing. Actually, scratch that; it'll just scare him off.) 16:43:41 alise, nice that your typical line is "celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts'". A bit of fine tuning and we could replace you with a bot! 16:44:12 Vorpal: Ahu-onrts'! CELT FSTUOOSLK!!! 16:44:20 alise, XD 16:44:51 (Translation: "Don't you EVER say that about my mother again, you [UNTRANSLATABLE] [UNTRANSLATABLE]!!!" 16:44:56 alise, I have but one reply to that: lsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec 16:45:20 *ææ *bœee 16:45:27 Get your orthography right, you cikmwpe boaa. 16:45:32 alise, no that isn't thypical of me 16:45:35 * Sgeo headaches at array coerced into scalar vs $#somearray 16:45:38 Sgeo: extra sigil at the start 16:45:47 I almost never use æ except when discussing the char itself 16:45:49 It would be sensible if they were the same. They're not 16:45:52 as in, $reference is a scalar holding a reference, $$scalar is the scalar it points to 16:45:54 Vorpal: You're always so bloody thypical, you stblgcneinn. 16:46:00 likewise, %$scalar is the hash it points to, etc 16:46:07 ais523, ah 16:46:08 *$$reference, %$reference 16:46:29 if $reference isn't a reference, or the wrong sort of reference, it causes a run-time warning 16:46:33 Perl isn't big on the idea of run-time errors 16:46:45 which is why you should always turn warnings on (-w command-line option, or "use warnings;" in the program) 16:46:49 alise, hrrm. You might have spoken enough lines in here that fizzie could make a fungot language model for you 16:46:49 Vorpal: the masamune! ride again! 16:46:58 alise, not sure if I have spoken enough as well 16:47:02 Vorpal: I've spoken more than enough. 16:47:04 fungot, oh? the sword? 16:47:04 Vorpal: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... 16:47:20 Perl's random quirks are maddening 16:47:20 The YouTube corpus, for instance, is quite small. Because asiekierka wasn't smart enough to do anything more than manually copy and paste YouTube comments out. 16:47:21 alise, right. It would be interesting :) 16:47:26 Sgeo: are English's? 16:47:32 Vorpal: It's already been done. 16:47:35 Grep logs for "virtuehird". 16:47:41 alise, ah, about when? 16:47:47 About then. 16:47:47 alise, I'm on laptop atm 16:47:48 I've been speaking English as a little kid. I'm used to it 16:47:53 When I was still ehird, at least. 16:47:53 alise, I don't have full logs locally 16:47:56 It's a bit late to learn Perl as a little kid 16:47:59 Vorpal: DB. 16:48:09 select * from logs where type=0 and nick="virtuehird"; 16:48:10 alise, yeah but ssh has a latency > 2 seconds 16:48:14 Boo hoo hoo. 16:48:15 Perl's quirks are mostly intentionally the same sorts of quirks you get in natural languages 16:48:16 accessing it over ssh would be painful 16:48:22 Not many lines. 16:48:29 alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. 16:48:34 Vorpal: ssh has a much lower latency than that 16:48:38 people play roguelikes over it 16:48:44 ais523, not when you are on EDGE 16:48:46 alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. 16:48:49 just quoted for posterity 16:48:59 ais523, bluetooth to phone, which has only EDGE atm, not 3G 16:49:00 actually 16:49:00 `addquote alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. 16:49:10 alise, irc because I run the client locally 16:49:12 225| alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no. 16:49:17 Still funny. 16:49:29 maybe 16:49:38 There are much less funny things in the QDB. 16:49:38 alise, so you admitted I was funny 16:49:39 :D 16:49:54 In the same way that things Bush says are funny. 16:49:59 nah 16:50:04 I prefer my original interpretation 16:50:47 (Vorpal should do "/me Sword") 16:50:56 */me sword 16:50:59 and no, he shouldn't 16:51:02 that wouldn't be amusing 16:51:06 ais523, anyway yes ssh over local ethernet has less lag. So does ssh from university. Just not ssh over mobile tethered by bluetooth on GSM/EDGE. 16:51:15 -!- alise has changed nick to trinlthis. 16:51:18 trinithis, fairly boring joke 16:51:18 * trinlthis hur hur 16:51:20 -!- trinlthis has changed nick to alise. 16:51:29 :D 16:51:32 I have a clone! 16:51:39 had* 16:51:39 Stupidity: 16:51:41 ehird@dinky:~/Documents/#esoteric/logs$ grep --colour=force -ri 'virtuehird' | less 16:51:52 trinithis: new? or a regular who's changed nick yet again? 16:51:57 new. 16:52:11 ais523, besides the signal indicator on the phone is at 2 out of 4.... 16:52:14 nice to see new people 16:52:19 Hahah. As they say, imitation is the best form of flattery 16:52:21 Vorpal: signal indicators are pretty meaningless... 16:52:40 ais523, oh? just for phones or in general? 16:53:06 phones in general 16:53:29 ais523, yeah, it is pretty reliable for wlan (well I don't know if it is for wlan on phones, since my phone can't do wlan) 16:53:47 Apple's original response to the iPhone signal strength issues was to release an OS patch to increase the signal strength meter 16:54:20 hm 16:54:31 ais523, so why can't they make the meter more reliable simply? 16:55:00 Vorpal: phones normally know the exact signal strength in dBm, but don't display it to the user for fear of confusing them 16:55:16 "why is my signal strength a negative number? why is it so much lower than my friend's, while I get better reception?" 16:55:36 Does Perl have dynamically-scoped variables? 16:55:57 Sgeo: lexical scoping: {my $variable; do stuff;} 16:56:05 dynamical scoping: {local $variable; do stuff;} 16:56:25 "my" is nearly always better 16:56:48 unless you need the semantics of "local" for some reason, or you're trying to scope something like $/ where you need to temporarily modify the original $/ rather than create a new one 16:56:55 ais523, why not just change the sign of it and call it something else 16:57:06 alise: because higher numbers are better 16:57:12 *Vorpal: 16:57:16 it's just that the numbers are negative 16:57:26 you could add a constant, I suppose 16:57:47 ais523: +100 sounds like a safe enough constant to add. 16:58:05 fizzie: might need to be a bit more, strength can go below 100dBm on occasion with some antennas 16:58:16 admittedly, it's hard to pick the signal up at that level, but it's possible 16:58:32 It's only a problem if you don't want it to ever be negative. 16:58:38 what would be really nice would be for phones to display signal/noise ratio, but I'm not sure how feasible it is to calculate that on the fly 16:58:57 -!- webquint has quit (Quit: Page closed). 16:59:01 ais523, hm higher numbers are better, yeah inverting sign wouldn't work, since that would make lower better 17:01:31 I need to freaking *remove the driver's side wheel* in order to replace the battery. WHAT THE HELL 17:01:35 ais523, anyway it should be plausible to make a scale from worst to best with a bit of margin based on the antenna. Presumably you have a weakest-working-signal as well as a best-plausible-signal for a given phone. Then you could just add a bit of margin as required (probably mostly/only at the top end) and then make a scale from worst to best based on that? 17:01:44 Either linear, or something more complex 17:01:51 ais523: Given how an absurd amount of computation there is in the audio codecs like amr-nb/amr-wb, I doubt a SNR estimate would really be felt at all. They might even already be doing that sort of stuff; especially for any VOIP codecs, for comfort noise generation and VAD. 17:01:59 but that way you should get reasonable good indicator 17:01:59 best-plausible-signal can be really high, though 17:02:10 if you're right next to the mobile phone mast, and that's entirely plausible in some built up areas 17:02:37 ais523, so show "it's off the scales" or something like that. Will get some laughs 17:02:45 or just make it non-linear 17:02:54 0-9000 and OVER 9000? 17:03:02 yeah XD 17:03:07 it'd be non-linear anyway, it's the use of a logscale that makes the values negative in the first place 17:03:13 but I'm wondering if you'd have to log twice, or something 17:04:43 ais523, or just do it so that from a scale 0-100, then you give 98% for very-good-not-next-to-tower signal and then use the remaining bit for the extreme case 17:05:17 ais523, I mean, non-linear scales to increase detail in some areas and reduce it in others isn't exactly uncommon. Just look at sRGB 17:07:12 ais523, anyway phones doesn't provide instant response to signal strength changes. So doing log twice wouldn't be an issue, it isn't like it is done more than every few seconds... 17:07:20 for the display that is 17:07:32 perhaps it calculates dBm more rapidly internally 17:07:53 doing log twice would lead to pretty much no change for very different signals at the low end, though 17:08:02 maybe just sqrt(log(x))? 17:08:20 logarithms take next to no time nowadays, especially if you use a lookup table 17:09:09 I'm just suggesting a general idea, exactly how you scale it is a fudge factor and would require being able to test it to see how it works out 17:09:34 ais523, anyway you need more than just signal strength, you need SNR as well 17:09:38 well, it'd need to be scaled in a consistent way across phones for signal strengths to be comparable across phones 17:09:52 and I mentioned SNR already as being more meaningful than strength 17:09:56 yeah 17:10:05 hmm, or what about measurements in theoretical maximum bits per second? 17:10:11 that depends on the SNR 17:10:14 ais523, but excellent SNR and weak signal isn't very usable either 17:10:21 yes it is 17:10:26 ais523, hm okay 17:10:30 assuming you take internal noise in the phone into account in the SNR 17:11:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: NO CARRIER). 17:11:22 Me: There are some languages that are more than just syntax 17:11:26 Student: Like assembly 17:11:30 Me: Like Haskell 17:11:37 ais523, what if you have basically no noise? (unrealistic I know!) but a signal so weak that the electrical current or whatever from it can't be detected by the circuits in the phone? 17:11:37 Student: Like I said, low-level languages 17:11:54 Vorpal: if there is no noise, it can be detected, by definition 17:13:06 ais523, could it not fall below the range of whatever sort of electronic thingy that the phone uses to pick up the signal from the antenna? A/D converter perhaps? 17:13:29 Vorpal: just put an amplifier in there 17:13:38 the noise from the amplifier /counts towards the SNR ratio/ 17:13:49 ais523, yes but if there isn't one, couldn't what I suggested happen? 17:14:02 Vorpal: no, because then the SNR increases 17:14:13 >>> str(h_f.sampleSingle(50)) 17:14:13 "iraa dsolh tesheshts c'eoe :ldeonshol: luece fh We" 17:14:13 (That's what I sound like.) 17:14:18 because if you can't detect a signal, then it is below the noise floor by definition 17:14:20 ais523, hm I guess you get quantum noise at some level 17:14:26 so you can never get actual 0 noise 17:14:31 correct 17:14:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:14:37 it's known as shot noise 17:14:42 normally, thermal noise is much larger, though 17:14:55 especially at room temperature 17:14:59 ais523, which is good, divisions by zero in nature sounds so awkward ;) 17:16:01 ais523, why shot noise? 17:16:17 ais523, it seems so nonsensical... compared to quantum noise. 17:16:28 because it's a particular cause of noise 17:16:35 something to do with it tending to come all at once 17:16:59 Shot noise is a type of electronic noise that occurs when the finite number of particles that carry energy (such as electrons in an electronic circuit or photons in an optical device) is small enough to give rise to detectable statistical fluctuations in a measurement. It is important in electronics, telecommunications, and fundamental physics. 17:17:17 http://dinnerinabottle.com/ 17:17:18 MEATWATER 17:17:23 I love how I didn't have to install anything to use the wifi 17:17:24 hm 17:17:29 You can buy gelfite fish water. Seriously. 17:17:37 Sgeo, how is that surprising? 17:17:40 Me: There are some languages that are more than just syntax 17:17:40 Student: Like assembly ;; wat 17:17:58 Vorpal: well, you usually do on Windows 17:18:00 unless it comes preinstalled 17:18:14 -!- moo8 has joined. 17:18:25 aren't most languages "more than just syntax"? Depends on what you actually mean with it. It isn't terribly clear. 17:18:47 well, I guess some esolangs might start out as only syntax 17:19:03 The student was complaining about the way that this language was being taught 17:19:03 and then you invent the other parts 17:19:11 Ok, closing comp 17:19:16 Vorpal: well, you usually do on Windows <-- hm okay 17:19:19 ais523: windows does wifi fine by default ime 17:19:21 *IME 17:19:23 well, asm doesn't even have a single standard syntax 17:19:27 alise: preinstalled? 17:19:28 it'll depend on your hardware, of course 17:19:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 17:19:46 ais523: yes, it has wifi support... 17:19:49 also, the Windows desktop I use doesn't do wifi 17:19:50 since XP 17:19:52 maybe even 2002 17:19:53 erm 17:19:54 2000 17:19:59 although that's hardly surprising, given that it doesn't have a wifi card 17:20:08 ais523, linux has way better hw support than windows. Though most manufactures provide drivers for windows to make up for that 17:20:18 but Windows even takes time to install USB stick drivers when you plug in a USB stick, it takes around a minute the first time 17:20:31 ais523, a minute? More like half a minute 17:20:38 but I guess that depends on the computer 17:20:49 ais523, also it sometimes takes time if you just use another usb port 17:20:52 than last time 17:21:00 which is just weird 17:21:08 Vorpal: yes, it has to install the drivers separately for each manufacturer of USB sticks, and each physical port on the computer 17:21:16 which makes me think abstraction fail 17:21:26 ais523, and each port on an external hub. I tested that some years ago 17:21:27 if you plug a USB stick in port 1 then port 2, you can plug it back into 1 again without waiting 17:21:28 was on xp 17:21:30 Vorpal: haha 17:21:44 what if you plug the external hub into a different port, then reuse a port on the hub? 17:22:00 ais523, doesn't it need to install drivers for the hub iirc? 17:22:06 and um I don't remember what happened then 17:22:17 and I don't have any computer handy to test with currently 17:22:32 Windows always simultaneously frustrates and amuses me whenever I have to use it nowadays 17:22:34 it's just so slow 17:22:48 -!- moo8 has quit (Quit: moo8). 17:23:13 ais523, I survive when I have to use it mostly. Mostly because all the lab computers at uni are core 2 quad at 2.6 GHz or such iirc 17:23:25 and run xp 17:24:18 of course it has it's own quirks. Like profile not propagating between all labs (while "my documents" does). 17:24:34 -!- moo8 has joined. 17:24:40 oh, I can survive it 17:24:43 but it's still frustrating 17:25:12 if you want some more fun, a network glitch at the University made directory listings take half an hour to load, during which you couldn't do anything else 17:25:14 ais523, yeah just have to store the theme to a file and reload it if you get the default bg when logging in. Oh except that internet explorer takes a bit more time to get sane 17:25:20 I find it hard to imagine what sort of OS glitch could manage that 17:25:25 there is no firefox or such 17:25:35 (we literally lost half an hour of a three-hour class due to that) 17:25:38 * pikhq hereby hates relatively recent American cars 17:26:05 THE MOTHER-FUCKING WHEEL NEEDS TO BE TAKEN OFF TO REPLACE THE BATTERY 17:26:17 THE HELL 17:26:18 ais523, I think the rules require us to ask for permission to install software. But we are free to compile our own in visual studio for courses and such. So I can only conclude that it is okay to write your own browser and run it, but not okay to just install firefox :D 17:26:49 if you want some more fun, a network glitch at the University made directory listings take half an hour to load, during which you couldn't do anything else <-- had that recently 17:26:51 does Firefox install in Visual Studio? 17:26:53 *compile in 17:26:56 no idea 17:27:05 well, login took 20 minutes that day 17:27:48 and um while I tried to move a file explorer.exe crashed with " at 0x00000000" iirc 17:27:50 Hello 17:27:55 ais523: "For doing development on the CVS trunk (Mozilla 1.9 or higher), the standard compiler is Microsoft Visual C++, version 8." 17:27:58 hi moo8 17:28:05 ais523, msvc took a few minutes to compile hello world 17:28:07 CVS? 17:28:12 seriously? 17:28:18 Vorpal: it does that 17:28:26 ais523, well it doesn't normally 17:28:30 ais523, it was just that day 17:28:34 ah, OK 17:28:37 fizzie, that's moz? not firefox? 17:29:09 hello 17:29:18 ais523, after all they are core 2 quad with 4 GB ram each, on gbit ethernet. Oh and internet was fast, it was just anything on network shares, and since almost everything is on network shares.... 17:29:29 Vorpal: It's the whole project; but only 1.9, so up to FireFox 3. They've switched to Mercurial for 1.9.1/FireFox 3.5. 17:29:38 ah 17:30:08 hello? 17:30:19 hi moo8 17:30:33 it's possible that I can hear you but you can't hear me, I suppose 17:30:36 but that's unusual on IRC 17:30:42 hey 17:31:01 Their build system is, I think, a bit hairy. 17:31:04 "In addition to Visual Studio, you must install MozillaBuild, a bundle of software including just the right versions of bash, GNU make, autoconf, Mercurial, and much more." 17:31:41 heh 17:31:48 and they call this non-esoteric? 17:31:53 I am bored 17:32:04 hmm, now I want an esolang that has really precise dependencies on exact versions of things 17:32:08 but I think gcc-bf might count already 17:32:12 The "official compiler" is still VC8 for FF 3/3.5/3.6/4 all, but apparently all those versions also build with VC9, versions <=3.5 in VC7.1, and versions >=4 in VC10. 17:32:51 moo8: you could try writing an esoprogram or two, that helps avoid boredom 17:33:12 or go to anagolf and try to solve some of the problems there (golf.shinh.org) 17:33:25 ais523, actually I'm not surprised. I seen similar bundles of software in specific fragile versions before for windows. For other open source projects 17:33:31 so bored 17:33:31 I think supertux used to have one 17:34:14 hmm, someone actually did a cheat submission for "cancel fractions", it seems 17:34:22 and I have no idea how, clearly it isn't embed-style cheating or rand-style cheating 17:34:30 ais523, and supertux didn't use msvc, it uses msys + mingw. 17:34:53 -!- moo8 has quit (Quit: moo8). 17:35:16 damn 17:35:19 i was gonna unbored him 17:36:06 ais523, hm the obvious way to implement it would be with that 's algorithm which uses gcd 17:36:17 Euclid's? 17:36:22 ah yeah could be 17:37:02 ais523, which one is the cheat one? 17:37:17 the one where someone resubmitted a "nocheat" version, which was longer 17:37:33 ah hm 17:37:35 my Perl submission there, incidentally, semi-cheats by using a rationals library 17:37:44 hm 17:37:45 but I consider that to be genuine because it actually solves the problem 17:37:48 presumably it's faster to do by hand 17:38:02 bbl food 17:39:59 ah, the other Perl submissions used the same library as me, but used eval rather than parsing by hand 17:40:03 why didn't I think of that? 17:41:41 wow at the Scheme solution (which three people found): "(port-map print read)" 17:41:47 what's the challenge? 17:41:47 * Phantom_Hoover reads the WP summary of the Epic of Gilgamesh and can't help but think of Turkish Star Wars. 17:42:06 -!- tombom has joined. 17:42:12 ais523? 17:42:24 ais523, doesn't work in plt-r5rs for me. 17:42:26 cancel fractions 17:42:28 "In order to determine how to accomplish the goal in question, strategic planning basically does routing in plan-space, again using Dijkstra’s algorithm." ;; genius 17:42:42 alise: nowadays it uses a modified A* 17:42:46 ais523: i was about to say 17:42:49 ais523: hmm, might yours not be better? 17:42:51 your magical one 17:42:59 plus my routing algorithm for when it actually corresponds to routing on the map 17:43:12 What's Ais' Magical Routing Algorithm? 17:43:19 it's... complicated 17:43:35 it's like dijkstra's algorithm modified to cache really well 17:43:37 Complicated is fun! 17:43:39 A* 17:43:52 and beats A* after a while due to A* needing to be recalculated each time 17:44:01 hmm 17:44:03 if you do enough routings on similar maps, and Planar does 17:44:08 any new data structures? 17:44:18 asymptotically better than dijkstra's on fib heap? 17:44:25 "In order to determine how to accomplish the goal in question, strategic planning basically does routing in plan-space, again using Dijkstra’s algorithm." ;; genius <-- what are you talking about? 17:44:33 Vorpal: TAEB::AI::Planar 17:44:36 aha 17:44:43 I only recognised the concept because alise was quoting me 17:45:41 ah 17:46:00 hahaha; the C solution I'm looking at to "cancel fractions" needs to use a string twice 17:46:16 and instead of repeating the string or assigning it to a variable, it writes the string once, and ""-6 once 17:46:37 ais523, is there a reason for that 17:46:37 relying on the merging of constant strings that gcc does to make the trailing NULs of the two strings the same 17:46:44 Vorpal: it's shorter, and it's a gold competition 17:46:51 heh 17:46:56 *golf 17:47:16 who cares that it's ridiculously fragile, ranking for golf competitions only depends on the program running correctly once, normally 17:47:18 ais523, wait, gcc doesn't merge constants unless they actually are constant 17:47:23 and you can't write to constants 17:47:23 they are 17:47:32 it doesn't write to it at all, just offsets from it 17:47:38 "six characters before a null string" 17:47:44 that doesn't modify the null string 17:47:51 Damnit, why can't I watch Futurama in the UK 17:48:21 ais523, how does it know it can write there at all 17:48:32 ais523, chances are it might be in a read only page? 17:48:33 it isn't writing there 17:48:36 it is in a read only page 17:48:40 eh okay 17:48:47 you do not be able to write to what a pointer points to to subtract from the pointer 17:49:13 "What's the memory address for 6 characters before the start of your stack frame?" "You can't write there!" 17:49:16 non sequitur... 17:49:34 ais523, I misunderstood you as it was writing there 17:49:37 (admittedly the address might not /exist/ due to virtual memory and paging, but writability doesn't affect existence) 17:49:45 ais523, I read " it doesn't write to it at all, just offsets from it" as " it doesn't write to it at all, just to offsets from it" 17:49:49 note the extra word 17:50:16 import java.util.*;enum C{C;int a,b,n,d,t;{for(Scanner S=new Scanner(System.in).useDelimiter("/|\n");b<1;System.out.println(d>a?n/a+"/"+d/a:n/a))for(a=n=S.nextInt(),b=d=S.nextInt();b>0;a=b,b=t%b)t=a;}} 17:50:24 that really says a lot about Java 17:50:49 ais523, that you can make it as messy as you want but there will still be quite a few long function names in it you can't avoid? 17:50:51 what is that supposed to do? 17:51:03 cancel fractions, like all the other submissions to the golf competition in question 17:51:06 and it actually succeeds at it 17:51:12 but it's a lot longer than the submissions in most other langs 17:51:23 didn't know about said competition 17:51:40 haha, I see how the golfscript competition cheats 17:51:46 *golfscript entry cheats 17:51:50 it contains embedded Ruby 17:51:54 ais523, huh? 17:52:15 golfscript's interp is written in Ruby, and someone added an "embed ruby" command to the lang, presumably on a whim 17:52:19 ais523, but exec was denied? 17:52:23 oh okay 17:52:27 ais523: are there any plans to make TAEB less cautious? 17:52:27 see, no exec 17:52:33 it seems that always taking the worst-case damage isn't a good idea 17:52:37 it'd be better to figure out the distribution 17:52:42 and perhaps pick the most common, plus a bit 17:52:47 (while taking into account the worst case) 17:52:52 alise: no, because it's so easy to pretty much avoid damage, in most cases 17:53:08 bots have no issue with spamming Elbereth everywhere, and it's probably the best strategy 17:53:21 hey guys. any of y'all have a thought on whether this is computable: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Bigot 17:53:23 alise, doing that feels a bit like cheating :/ 17:53:26 err 17:53:27 ais523, ^ 17:53:37 Elbereth is a bit lame 17:53:41 AceHack should remove it ;-) 17:53:54 alise: not Ace, that's not compatible with its goals 17:53:58 BAH 17:53:59 Either Spork or Un (or maybe both) do something to Elbereth already. 17:54:02 AliseHack 17:54:16 Spork nerfs Elbereth; Un plans to, but I'm not sure if it has yet 17:54:29 it's interesting that they both decided to nerf it rather than remove it outright 17:54:32 alise, nah, a better fix would be to remove it for writing in dust/engraving, that would make it more expensive. One charge from a wand of fire or such 17:54:35 "TAEB, on seeing this frame, makes a couple of damaging inferences: 17:54:35 The lower half of the level has turned into solid rock." :D 17:54:47 ais523: nerf? 17:54:54 ais523, nerf? 17:54:56 also, un? 17:55:02 oh, unnethack 17:55:03 alise: make a lot less powerful, it's a common gaming perjorative 17:55:17 I am not down wit da LINGO 17:55:21 the reference is if you replace a real gun with a nerf gun 17:55:22 Well okay I know a lot of it 17:55:24 right 17:55:30 "TAEB, on seeing this frame, makes a couple of damaging inferences: The lower half of the level has turned into solid rock." :D <-- eh what? 17:55:45 Vorpal: if you try parsing the screen before the game finishes rendering 17:56:03 it doesn't actually infer that the level is half-rock, but rather that it's fallen into another level with the same number in a different branch 17:56:06 which is arguably worse 17:56:08 ais523, you could just wait for the relevant line to be output? 17:56:15 Vorpal: no you couldn't? 17:56:32 ais523, well, wait for the HP lines and such to be output 17:56:36 the game's rendering order isn't consistent enough / tagged well enough to do that 17:56:39 aha 17:56:40 I see 17:56:47 Right, Un had made Elbereth not work on major demons, but hadn't nerfed it any more; but they added that "ctrl-e engraves Elbereth" quick-key, which is a bit... much. 17:56:53 ais523: can't you just store the order as it is in the code? :P 17:56:54 ais523, so it arrives out of order in the byte stream? 17:57:07 fizzie: ha 17:57:10 fizzie: Ace is going to map Elbereth-writing to . 17:57:10 Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E 17:57:16 ais523: noooo 17:57:17 and then reflavour it, to be less arbitrary 17:57:19 fuck that 17:57:24 Elbereth should be painful to do 17:57:29 as punishment :P 17:57:31 alise: the idea is to keep the same gameplay mechanics as NetHack, but make the interface better 17:57:34 ais523: I use . to wait, anyway 17:57:36 although usually s 17:57:40 since it's more helpful 17:57:48 so, keep using . to wait and have Elbereth protection in the meantime 17:57:59 alise, I think my suggestion above that it would only work with burning, not with writing in dust/engraving should make it a lot more expensive 17:58:04 Aw, no-one did a better fraction-canceler in Forth than my somewhat crappy quickly done obvious gcd+output solution. 17:58:07 and perhaps even the burned one could wear out over time 17:58:08 in practice, Elbereth-writing tends to be control-shift-V anyway 17:58:18 alise, ais523: what game/challenge does the previous discussion refer to? 17:58:27 i use . to hack puddings 17:58:29 ais523, shift? 17:58:30 quintopia: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Cancel+fractions 17:58:35 cheater: pudding farmer! 17:58:38 just one of many on anagolf 17:58:42 alise: and proud of it 17:58:45 but I'm caring about it more than others as I submitted it 17:58:53 alise: just look at his/her nick 17:58:58 not that pudding farming /is/ cheating, just boring 17:59:01 cheater: ,-_|_ 17:59:13 Wow, worst middle-finger ASCII art ever. 17:59:16 alise: (__(_)__) 17:59:29 ais523: I love the quote -- 17:59:35 oh, I interpreted the _|_ as bottom from Haskell 17:59:36 cheater, I find pudding farming gives too little, I tend to go for death farming instead 17:59:37 ais523: i was already looking at that, but i have no idea how elbereth, spork, etc. applies to it 17:59:38 "The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming." 17:59:40 oh, i thought it was a unary operator evaluated on Bottom 17:59:43 ais523: that's why I added the ,- thumb :P 17:59:43 as it's the normal ASCII representation 17:59:51 so i gave alise an ascii art of a closure. 17:59:53 alise: yes, I was trying to figure out the value of , 18:00:02 heh 18:00:02 that you were subtracting bottom from 18:00:11 although I suppose the value's irrelevant, because the sum as a whole has no value 18:00:33 ..|. is a nice, minimalistic finger. 18:00:33 Vorpal: isn't death farming pointless apart from ascending with weird stuff? 18:00:42 quintopia: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?C+style+constants has almost a day left, it's another one I set 18:00:54 alise: death farming's the fastest way to accumulate score 18:00:55 alise, well if you want to max score, or get negative score, it is also somewhat useful 18:00:58 if you're trying to max out the score counter 18:01:04 boring 18:01:16 most of the monsters that give higher scores are difficult to farm 18:01:34 ais523, I managed to get exactly 0 for score once with death farming and some careful planning in general 18:01:40 alise is bored by EVERYTHING 18:01:44 Vorpal: on NAO? 18:01:50 ais523, no. Too much lag from here 18:01:58 ais523, it is basically unplayable for me 18:02:01 hmm, do it in devnull some year, and troll all the people aiming for minimum score 18:02:06 it has servers all over the world 18:02:07 Wait, Haskell has an empty type as standard? 18:02:11 Phantom_Hoover: yes 18:02:15 ais523, maybe, when is devnull? 18:02:15 ais523: this isn't helping me understand where you are death farming and where the monsters lurk 18:02:19 how else would you create a function that didn't return a value 18:02:23 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:02:24 Vorpal: every November 18:02:25 ais523, !haskell example? 18:02:28 ais523, () 18:02:30 *? 18:02:34 ais523, ah, I have university and such then, tricky 18:02:39 well, you probably want to put it in a monad so it can actually /do/ something 18:02:44 ais523, the game in question lasted about half a month 18:02:52 !haskell :t putStrLn "Hello, world!" 18:02:59 And anyway, lazy semantics make non-returning functions basically pointless. 18:03:03 putStrLn "Hello, world!" :: IO () 18:03:05 () is not empty. 18:03:07 Vorpal: that's rather a while for death farming 18:03:09 () is the unit type. 18:03:17 Wait, Haskell has an empty type as standard? 18:03:17 Phantom_Hoover: yes 18:03:18 liar 18:03:29 hmm, I'm muddling terminology, aren't I? 18:03:30 or rather, misinformer 18:03:31 ais523, I was doing extinctionism as well 18:03:33 that isn't lying, though, just being wrong 18:03:33 or misinformed 18:03:36 ais523: yes 18:03:36 Vorpal: ah, I see 18:03:41 |()| = 1 18:03:42 |Void| = 0 18:03:48 data Void -- requires extension to H'98 18:03:56 ais523, I think I missed water devils though 18:04:01 oh, a type with no values at all, such that you know any function that returns it doesn't return? 18:04:10 C should have one of those, IMO 18:05:00 ais523, like a combination of void and __attribute__((noreturn)) ? 18:05:03 ais523, void 18:05:09 Vorpal: yep 18:05:12 Phantom_Hoover: that has one value 18:05:20 like a 0-bit number 18:05:23 IIRC WP gives void as the closest analogue to the empty type. 18:05:31 void's a unit type 18:05:41 ais523, non portable solution: #define noretvoid __attribute__((noreturn)) void 18:05:47 void stuff(); 18:05:50 or whatever you want to call it 18:05:54 ais523, then use that as a return type 18:05:55 x = stuff; 18:05:56 should work 18:06:01 Surely that's not legal C? 18:06:06 *stuff() 18:06:17 Phantom_Hoover, as ais523 said, void is an unit type 18:06:27 What's the value> 18:06:29 if it's "void stuff()", then stuff itself is of type void(*)() 18:06:31 void 18:06:37 which has quite a lot of possilbe values 18:06:38 *possible 18:06:47 ais523, that's pointer to the func though? 18:07:00 Vorpal: the name of a function is a pointer to it 18:07:00 ais523, that's the type of the function, not its value. 18:07:27 ais523, well yeah 18:07:55 Phantom_Hoover, yes I have to agree here 18:08:01 Current WP view on C void is: "Note that despite the name, in all of these situations, the void type serves as a unit type, not as a zero or bottom type, even though unlike a real unit type which is a singleton, the void type comprises an empty set of values, and the language does not provide any way to declare an object or represent a value with type void." 18:08:07 And void x; gives compiler errors. 18:08:49 fizzie, |void| = 1 or 0? 18:08:52 void's defined as an incomplete type that cannot be completed 18:09:04 so via the definition, it's a perfect encapsulation for some type with no way to access it 18:09:08 If it has no values, it is an empty type. 18:09:21 you can assume it's the type defined by the HQ9++ program ++ 18:10:10 Phantom_Hoover: void quite possibly has values, even multiple values, but there's no way to access them except via type punning 18:10:14 ais523, doesn't gcc support void as a special type? Like for stack marker something or such 18:10:28 ais523, you used it in gcc-bf iirc? 18:10:28 and no way to create them except via type punning either 18:10:50 Well, C99 does say "The void type comprises an empty set of values; it is an incomplete type that cannot be completed." -- so if you go by literal verbiage, I guess it'd be empty, but then it doesn't really make sense as a return value type. 18:10:55 Vorpal: oh, you can dereference a pointer to void inside a goto, to jump to that memory address 18:11:12 but that's just because extensions need to, according to the standard, fit into stuff that's undefined behaviour in other interps 18:11:17 ais523, code snippet? 18:11:22 fizzie, maybe it is overloaded in a manner similar to "static" 18:11:53 Phantom_Hoover: {void* x; label: ; x = &&label; goto *x;} 18:11:58 infinite loop via gcc extensions 18:12:32 ais523: Wouldn't it be a more elegant as {void *x; x = &&label; label: goto *x;} -- now you keep setting x all the time. 18:12:33 Extensions, though, hence not standard C. 18:12:52 fizzie: it'd be more elegant as an actual noncomputed loop, so it could be optimized 18:12:55 Phantom_Hoover, exactly, which is why it doesn't affect our argument 18:13:08 gcc-bf's use of it is along the lines of "goto *(void *)0;" 18:13:25 which is completely nonportable even within gcc, but I know that gcc-bf handles it correctly 18:13:46 this is an example of the general principle that you can do what the hell you like in system libraries and headers, and generally have to 18:14:26 Another part of C99 says, of void: "The (nonexistent) value of a void expression (an expression that has type void) shall not be used in any way, and implicit or explicit conversions (except to void) shall not be applied to such an expression." 18:14:54 So it's empty? 18:15:03 fizzie: you can create an effective void value via type punning, though 18:15:11 but then you need to type-pun /again/ to determine what it is 18:15:20 and you just get the same result as if you'd done the type punning in one step 18:15:36 But really, it's a terminology quibble; you could as well argue that since "type funcname();" returns a value of type, and you can legally say "void funcname();" and have that return, it can't be empty. 18:15:57 this is an example of the general principle that you can do what the hell you like in system libraries and headers, and generally have to <-- no you can't but you have to because you can't 18:16:22 ais523, with that I mean that to avoid messing up for user code you often have to that sort of weird stuff 18:16:24 Vorpal: you can, because nothing in the standards constrains system headers/libraries, apart from semantics 18:16:42 the standards don't even require the standard #includes to actually be files 18:16:56 #include could just set an internal compiler flag, for instance, in a hypothetical implementation 18:16:58 ais523, you can't define stuff that could collide with the app, and you must be prepared to survive a lot of strange #define (up to a point) 18:18:47 Vorpal: if implementing the headers in C, correct 18:18:55 nothing forces system headers to be in C! 18:19:48 ais523, hm... have you seen any such system? 18:20:18 no 18:20:27 there's quite a lot of latitude in the C standards that has probably never been used 18:21:40 ais523, I don't know about GCC but iirc clang sets up the initial #defines by passing a number of strings like "#define __clang__ 1" to the parser before starting to parse the actual files 18:21:48 rather than just setting it up directly in some internal table 18:26:57 clang's cool 18:29:55 ais523: taeb's code is unreasonably well-architectured! 18:30:21 alise: heh 18:30:36 "NetHack bot" sounds like something that ought to be a real mess. 18:30:52 at least two of the devs were using it as a test that the principles behind Moose were useful in practice 18:30:57 TAEB 18:31:00 *? 18:31:06 as in, a test of the concept, rather than a test of the implementation 18:31:10 something that's rarely done 18:31:11 Phantom_Hoover: yep 18:31:24 What is TAEB? 18:31:48 fizzie: some of the devs were complaining that my code was hacky, and I said that it was trying to emulate a hack in NetHack's code itself correctly, so there wasn't much else you could do 18:33:50 at least two of the devs were using it as a test that the principles behind Moose were useful in practice <-- Moose? 18:33:59 Vorpal: Perl object-orientation library 18:34:21 it's rather indicative of how Perl works that you /can/ have a library that adds a new OO system 18:35:48 POOP 18:35:57 I often get transmission errors when copying data from/to my phone over bluetooth, I wonder why. Often I get like half an image, and then it works on next try. Nowdays I always check both size once after transfer and sha512sum twice 18:36:03 or a library that changes syntax 18:36:08 but that really shouldn't be needed 18:36:14 nooga: not really 18:36:25 you can have a library that preprocesses the code, but that's not quite the same 18:36:43 it's what lacks in other langs 18:36:46 Phantom_Hoover, TAEB is what has been discussed the past half screen 18:37:09 Phantom_Hoover, it should be clear from the context 18:37:27 Phantom_Hoover: TAEB is a NetHack bot framework, written in Perl 18:37:35 combining it with an AI gives you a NetHack bot 18:37:44 Ahh. 18:37:46 and the AIs are written as Perl libraries 18:38:40 ais523, anyway what is the last thing that nethack prints when drawing the screen? 18:39:06 I think it's the lowest-right character that actually changed 18:39:17 not counting some characters that are drawn at other points in the sequence 18:39:26 ais523, so it doesn't print the HP stuff unless it needs to? 18:39:37 how curious 18:39:39 why 18:39:49 it should take less code to just redraw the whole thing 18:39:51 Vorpal: Speaking of which (not that we were speaking of anything, this is a non sequitur), I took some panoramish (more like just stitched wide-angle) things from this water tower: http://zem.fi/~fis/watertower.jpg -- there's a restaurant on top of it and so on. 18:39:53 to save terminal bandwidth, I think 18:39:57 haha 18:40:19 fizzie, and where is that pano? 18:40:20 Vorpal: there are bits of code which clearly aren't assuming that terminal bandwidth is near-unlimited, like it is on modern computers 18:40:25 Vorpal: Being stitched. 18:40:30 fizzie, also: nice water-tower 18:40:34 even an option to create time delays via excess NULs in output 18:40:42 fizzie, very unusual design 18:41:17 ais523, err what? that would waste bw? 18:41:33 Vorpal: deliberately, in order to create a time delay 18:41:47 lynx or screen or some-such did some pretty heavy screen-scrolling optimization; sometimes when you scrolled down a whole page, if it happened to have enough repeated structure in it, it'd just move some regions around the screen, since you can do region-to-region copies cheaply. (The way it moved things around was pretty visible on the vt510 at 9600 bps.) 18:41:49 it used to be the standard method 18:42:24 Vorpal: The tower seems to have a Wikipedia page, though it's a bit stub-y: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haukilahti_water_tower 18:43:22 ais523, why the time delay? excessive null bytes just wastes bw... 18:45:03 Vorpal: because there's a limit to how fast characters can be sent to a terminal 18:45:12 1000 NULs would create a noticeable delay on most old-fashioned terminals 18:45:20 due to the time it took to send them all down the line 18:45:52 ais523, so you mean the *pipe* wasn't the limit? 18:46:05 but the internal buffer of the terminal at the end? 18:46:05 the speed of the connection was the limit 18:46:13 it tended to be a serial connection at 2400 baud or so 18:46:20 Vorpal: First set, out of three: http://zem.fi/~fis/hp1.jpg -- that's about 129 degrees, horizontally. 18:46:24 sending a kilobyte at 2400 baud will take a while no matter what the data is 18:46:35 ais523, then those NUL would just waste that bw of the connection!? this makes no sense 18:47:01 if the terminal hardware wasn't the limit, but the connection was 18:47:05 then the NULs make no sense 18:47:06 Vorpal: It's for when you actually want to make a fixed-time delay. 18:47:23 To animate a twiddly thing, for example, or something. 18:47:25 fizzie, hm 18:47:30 (That you don't want to twiddle too fast.) 18:47:32 fizzie, in nethack? 18:47:51 Vorpal: there are fixed-time delays in NetHack, yes 18:47:54 I guess there it could be the other animations. 18:48:07 things like shift-direction 18:48:12 which shows you at each location you move past 18:48:38 ais523, oh hm I never noticed that 18:48:55 there's an option to turn a) the delay, b) the intermediate rendering off 18:55:42 fizzie, nice pano 18:55:51 fizzie, (took a while to load) 18:56:27 fizzie, no way to get to the absolute top and do a spherical pano? 18:56:29 XD 18:57:54 Vorpal: It's the upload pipe again. The second one is at http://zem.fi/~fis/hp2.jpg and it's a bit larger (2.2M vs. 1.3M in bytes) so it'll probably take even longer. 18:58:47 There's a pile of antennas and such up there in the middle, so I'm sure it's technically speaking possible to get there, but it's not open to the public, no. 19:00:32 fizzie, hm the antennas would block the view 19:00:40 would need to remove them while taking the pano 19:03:51 In hp2.jpg there's the Otaniemi (where TKK's... sorry, Aalto University School of Science and Technomancy's campus is) water tower sort-of visible, though you pretty much have to know what you're looking for. It's a bit strange octagonal-ish shape too. 19:05:01 http://www.muuka.com/finnishpumpkin/towers/2/img/vote5.jpg is a google-searched image of it. 19:05:20 I guess that has a bit more than 8 sides, but polygonal anyway. 19:05:55 * Phantom_Hoover realises he has never seen a water tower. 19:06:24 fizzie, wait, is hl2 not from the water tower? 19:06:49 Phantom_Hoover, whaaat? 19:07:11 We just... don't have them in Scotland. 19:07:23 Phantom_Hoover, so they use powerful pumps instead? 19:07:24 Vorpal: They're both from the same place, just different directions. 19:07:31 At least, not in the bits I've seen... 19:07:33 Vorpal: much of Scotland is rather mountainous 19:07:36 including most of the water sources 19:07:41 ais523, ah I see 19:07:44 so I imagine they can mostly just use gravity 19:07:54 Yeah, Edinburgh has the Pentlands right next to it. 19:08:03 ais523, so they just put reservoirs uphill? 19:08:05 yep 19:08:08 Uhu. 19:08:25 I remember doing a school trip to one ages ago. 19:12:17 there is one city near here that as a water tower that looks a bit like a mushroom in shape. It's officially named "The mushroom" (Svampen). There is some cafe near the top 19:12:23 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svampen,_%C3%96rebro has an image of it 19:12:44 the trees are actually quite near 19:12:51 it is taller than it looks from the image on wikipedia 19:13:54 says it is 58m tall 19:14:39 I feel like I'm missing out. 19:14:53 Wait, I thought Scandinavia had mountains aplenty? 19:15:06 Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/hp3.jpg -- and there's the third (last) one. It has a bit problematic exposure, mostly towards sunlight, but anyway. (Also shaped a bit differently, took it in two rows of five pics.) 19:15:16 Finland is very lacking in the mountains department. 19:15:27 I must say, all of these water tower designs remind me of Edinburgh Airport's control tower. 19:15:50 There are some fells up north, but they're rather... lackluster, so to say. 19:16:05 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Edinburgh_Airport_Control_Tower.jpg 19:16:13 Wait, I thought Scandinavia had mountains aplenty? <-- not uniformly 19:16:18 and yeah Finland lacks that 19:16:34 Phantom_Hoover, and it's very flat in the part of Sweden that I live 19:16:56 Norway's a bit more edgy. 19:17:06 Phantom_Hoover, like a wormhole about to close 19:17:14 Phantom_Hoover, I would be scared to travel up that ;) 19:17:40 fizzie, nice last pano 19:19:01 Water towers here are usually just pretty boring "tall, slender cyliner, with a bit wider cylinder up top" designs; the Haukilahti UFO and Otaniemi nut-and-bolt styles are the exceptions. 19:19:06 fizzie, your panoramas are much nicer than Vorpal's. 19:19:14 Vorpal's break my computer 19:19:18 Oh, and there's a silly-looking one in Espoonlahti: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UnH8iNDl81s/SV4vLcBaRnI/AAAAAAAAAOY/jx2AkN5cZwM/s1600-h/IMG_0512.JPG 19:19:26 Phantom_Hoover: ITYM s/nicer/smaller/. :p 19:19:56 Truly, Scotland has severely missed out on this font of architectural weirdness. 19:20:15 So wait, do they use towers in England? 19:21:01 There's another UFO in Lauttasaari: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Lauttasaari_water_tower.JPG 19:21:20 That one looks more mushroomy. 19:21:33 It's been decommissioned, also; there's no water up there, or anything else. 19:21:37 With the gill-like structures on the bottom. 19:21:50 They've planned all sorts of stuff, like a wall-climbing place, but nothing has materialized. 19:22:10 Vorpal's break my computer <-- that's your computer's issue 19:22:14 not my fault 19:22:59 That one looks more mushroomy. <-- well, that depends on your point of view 19:24:02 Oh, oh, and the Hanko water tower has inexplicably a fish-shaped weather vane on top: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Hankoo_water_tower_July_10_2005.JPG 19:24:09 I don't know what's the story on that one. 19:25:08 http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1614&bih=685&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=Svampen+%C3%96rebro&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= 19:25:16 Phantom_Hoover, there are some more pictures there 19:25:34 plus for unknown reason the Örebro Castle 19:25:45 It looks decidedly less mushroomy from that angle. 19:25:58 Phantom_Hoover, from which one? 19:26:16 Phantom_Hoover, I think the side view is quite nice 19:26:36 All of the ones other than fizzie's. 19:26:40 Phantom_Hoover, like an UFO parked on top of a giant concrete mushroom 19:27:32 Phantom_Hoover, and the one fizzie linked was a different water tower 19:27:43 Ah. 19:28:45 Yeah, mine was in Finland. 19:29:02 The Haukilahti UFO is also lit up so that it looks even more UFOy at night. I can't seem to find a nice high-resolution photo, but http://www.fonecta.fi/images/stillpics///files/343303.fonecta.client/1236243011351_1_large.jpg 19:29:45 fizzie, they light up Svampen too. And sometimes in neon colours 19:30:05 Hah, and there's this one in Lahti, Finland: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UnH8iNDl81s/SVe3phDYq7I/AAAAAAAAAMo/l9xbqWAA5SI/s1600-h/IMG_0445.JPG 19:30:20 For some reason I cannot comprehend, the relief map of Scotland I found on Google has "ALBANIA" written on it. 19:30:23 It looks like it's some sort of low-polygon approximation. 19:30:39 I remember reading that Svampen was built top to bottom, using cranes to suspend the upper parts 19:30:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:30:46 while the lower ones were being build 19:30:48 built* 19:31:02 It looks like it's some sort of low-polygon approximation. <-- indeed 19:31:35 Apparently Albania is not in southeastern Europe as previously believed, but in the Highlands. 19:31:41 fizzie, hm would fit right into darwinia! 19:34:22 Phantom_Hoover: There's a tiny little swamp (formerly a village, now there's something like three farms) near Lieksa (where our summer places are) called "Egyptinkorpi", lit. "Egypt's woods/wilderness/backwoods" (the "korpi" part is a bit tricky to translate). 19:34:34 I've always wondered about the name when driving past the road-sign pointing that way. 19:35:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:35:06 As close as I can determine, there's nothing whatsoever "egyptian" about the place. 19:35:33 (It's right next to the Russian border, but I don't see how that would be relevant either.) 19:35:39 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 19:35:49 fizzie, what about the "Klockrike" somewhere near Linköping in Sweden? 19:35:53 that's a pretty strange one too 19:36:32 translates to something like "Country of Clocks" or such, a bit hard to translate the actual meaning. 19:36:38 OTOH, the named one village "Hörhö", which is the Finnish word for, well, "crackpot". 19:36:48 or maybe "Country of bells" 19:36:55 hard to tell, same word 19:37:00 "Hi, where are you from?" "Oh, uh, well.. the crackpot-land, actually..." 19:37:31 fizzie, could be of Swedish origin? 19:37:42 Hör = hear, hö = hay 19:37:50 not very sensible, but better 19:38:03 I think that would be more likely on the western side, but I guess it's always a possibility. 19:38:38 fizzie, "hörö" I would have said was a lot more likely as a Swedish place name, since ö = island 19:39:01 and it isn't exactly uncommon for place names to end in -ö 19:39:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:37 There's quite a lot of -ö's in Finland, too. Especially since most of our islands tend to be in the more-or-less Swedish-speaking areas. 19:41:16 hm 19:46:54 i've got brown cheese from norway/1 19:48:41 nooga, as opposed to norway/2? 19:48:49 is that version number? arity number? division? 19:49:47 Okay, opened in openstreetmap approximately the middle third of the coastline between Helsinki and Hanko: it shows 24 place-names, and ten of those end in -ö. (Strömsö, Storramjö, Skämmö, Jakobramsjö, Vålö, Stora Fagerö, Svinö, Kalvö, Lilla Svartö, Träskö. And I guess you can count Kyrkogårdsön too. And there's Mallholmen and five "-landet"s. And only three that end in "-saari" (fi:island).) 19:50:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:50:39 (I'm assuming osm is showing the "primary" names here; many have names both in Finnish and Swedish.) 19:51:50 fizzie, the one ending in -sjö is "lake" not "island" 19:51:58 (it doesn't make sense splitting it elsewhere) 19:52:40 fizzie, -landet is a strange ending 19:53:06 and -holmen translates to "island" too I think. Basically same idea anyway 19:53:25 norway/1 = norway, doesn't it? 19:53:34 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:54:13 -!- wareya has joined. 19:55:14 nooga, depends on what / is. And if it *is* division, what if it is floating point: who knows, especially on pentiums 19:58:26 fizzie: outokumpu 19:58:48 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 19:59:03 nooga: Lit. translated: "weird bump". 19:59:26 (Or maybe "weirdhill", but I like the word "bump" more.) 19:59:54 Wiktionary says (of kumpu): "A hummock, hillock (small natural elevation of earth, generally smaller than kukkula (“hill”), larger than kumpare (“knoll”))." 20:00:12 (And "outo" is weird, strange.) 20:00:24 Strangehill sounds like someone's name. 20:01:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:12:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:14:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:20:03 fizzie, my sister's P1 teacher was called Mrs Strange. 20:22:03 I just somehow was reminded of Mr Underhill. 20:24:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 20:24:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:29:24 bacl 20:29:56 ais523: I had a Nethack bot idea. 20:30:25 oh dear 20:30:42 ais523: Are you saying "oh dear" just to be negative? 20:31:12 it's a typical response to ideas 20:31:14 ais523: is that an "oh dear, I hope it doesn't manage to find a way to recursively self-improve and take over the world?" 20:31:23 because if so, thanks for the compliment! 20:31:48 heh 20:31:58 ais523: are you interested in hearing it? it's okay if not 20:32:06 yes 20:34:48 ais523: the idea is basically to be stupid. The bot knows how to move around, and what keys are actually valid actions; it knows how to respond to prompts, and it knows how to use menus and the inventory. But... nothing else. It has no idea that q quaffs, for instance. How does it find out? Simple! Everything is quantified, like in Planar, into a resource: HP, gold, etc. Things which are bad are resources that are always negative: for instance, every item w 20:34:48 ould have a negative inventory-space, every action would have a negative turns-gained, and so on. To start with, apart from when it wants to move somewhere, it acts completely at random. Every time it chooses an action, it notes some subset -- I'm not sure which yet -- of its environment, and the effects it had on all resources. 20:35:18 Then it becomes a case of "each turn, sort all possible actions by how richer they make me; if two items are equal, sort them randomly. Then pick the top action, and do it." 20:35:19 hmm, you're trying to come up with a new AI algo, based on learning? 20:35:26 ais523: Pretty much. But the key here is: 20:35:28 the issue is that what an action does depends on context so much 20:35:32 It would save this state in a file. 20:35:38 well, that's obvious... 20:35:38 So it could die, and play again, and die, and play again, and learn. 20:35:46 ais523: well, no, because it's not obvious that it persists across games 20:35:49 which is the important thing 20:36:00 learning algos normally persist... 20:36:13 It's also not obvious that it does any learning :) 20:36:14 Anyway, whatever. 20:36:31 ais523: I'm not sure what context to give. 20:36:43 neither am I 20:36:47 which is why it's a problem 20:37:06 I think perhaps a neighbourhood -- say two to three squares out? -- of cells, plus any special states: hunger, burden, and so on. 20:37:12 Oh, and for things like quaffing it would note what object it was, of course. 20:37:39 Of course, this is fundamentally probabilistic in the end; it may do something obviously stupid simply because it was never stupid before, and that's unavoidable. Still, stupid heuristics have surprisingly high success rates, I find... 20:38:15 ais523: psht, TAEB cheats at Telnet negotiation 20:38:24 it should clearly use a CPAN Telnet module which makes every part of it object-oriented 20:38:31 and tell that object what it will and won't do 20:38:38 alise: IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is on CPAN... 20:38:46 admittedly, it was invented for TAEB, but it's still useful 20:38:52 however: 20:38:59 http://github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm 20:39:04 erm 20:39:05 http://github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm#L149 20:39:10 github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm#L149 20:39:14 it cheats at the actual negotiation 20:41:14 ais523: do you think the architecture has any hope of working: 20:41:16 *working? 20:41:23 I got this strange thing from rosegarden "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work" 20:41:24 obviously it'd have to be a melee fighter, not a wizard or anything 20:41:27 that file exists 20:41:28 since that requires too large a range 20:41:29 so wtf XD 20:41:54 rosegarden actually works 20:41:57 I think if you ran it for a month or two, automatically respawning, it could do something sane. 20:42:00 it just tells me that at exit 20:42:07 Oh, you'd have to have level-increase as a positive resource. 20:44:20 ais523: I think the chances of it ever ascending are zero, but I bet it could figure out the mines. 20:44:28 Sokoban... mmmmmmmnope. 20:44:38 Unless you cheated and had a built in resource called made-sokoban-closer-to-complete. 20:44:44 Then it might be able to learn. 20:47:23 hmm 20:47:28 I wonder if Moose is more comprehensive than CLOS? 20:47:34 It's inspired in many ways by CLOS, so... 20:47:53 It might just be equal. 20:48:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:49:00 alise: IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is on CPAN... <--- half duplex??? 20:49:10 can telnet operate in anything except full duplex? 20:50:28 Clearly. 20:50:42 alise, I'm just so utterly astonished! 20:51:16 alise, since tcp inherently provides full duplex it seems very strange 20:52:55 alise, you tried gobolinux iirc? 20:53:05 Vorpal: Yeah. NixOS is cooler. 20:53:06 alise, what was your opinion on it? 20:53:17 It's like GoboLinux but rollbackable! And awesome! And it has 64-bit support! 20:53:27 alise, sure nixos is cooler, but I still wonder about gobolinux 20:53:29 And it doesn't use irritatingly sentence-cased directories! 20:53:50 alise, sentence cased? As in "Binaries"? 20:53:51 Vorpal: Well... it's better than the usual organisation, but the community just isn't there to make it work nicely, you know? So it lags behind. 20:53:56 NixOS is more actively developed and, moreover, cooler. 20:54:01 Vorpal: /Programs/KDE-Libs/ 20:54:07 alise, have you tried nixos more than just livecd? 20:54:17 Vorpal: I'm going to install it if all goes according to plan 20:54:20 besides, it ships stock packages 20:54:28 and i already now how Nix itself works 20:54:32 so i already know what it is :P 20:54:35 alise, ah, figured out issue with complex configs in etc? 20:54:39 I didn't find from docs 20:54:47 configuration is done in configuration.nix 20:55:04 alise, yes sure, and there was that sshd.start or whatever 20:55:09 and filesystems 20:55:18 i'm pretty sure 20:55:22 erm 20:55:24 forget that last line 20:55:31 alise, but what if you want to set sshd configs like: 20:55:31 was writing something but train of thought got derailed 20:55:38 Match User anoncvs 20:55:44 X11Forwarding no 20:55:51 AllowTCPForwarding no 20:55:59 other complex options 20:56:02 Vorpal: I believe that will also be handled. 20:56:10 I can take a peek at the manual to see. 20:56:23 alise, I checked the manuals on the website, and the wiki, and found nothing 20:56:29 Vorpal: It is probable that many packages still have regular configuration files somewhere. 20:56:42 Also, #nixos does exist, you know, and they are friendly. They're Haskell folk. 20:56:55 http://hydra.nixos.org/build/639152/download/1/nixos/manual.html "Example 4.1" has complex configuration 20:57:03 with a cron job, for instance 20:57:05 alise, basically, I would consider the whole thing flawed beyond use if you can't do everything that you can do in normal sshd_config 20:57:11 "shows the configuration file for the locate service" 20:57:14 sure you may say most doesn't care, I do however 20:57:22 of course you can. don't be an idiot. 20:57:32 alise, good 20:57:37 :P 20:57:47 if you couldn't, I imagine they'd just make it use the default config file format, for instance 20:57:52 boot.extraModprobeConfig 20:57:52 Any additional configuration to be appended to the generated modprobe.conf. This is typically used to specify module options. See modprobe.conf(5) for details. 20:57:52 Default: "" 20:57:52 Example: "options parport_pc io=0x378 irq=7 dma=1\n" 20:57:52 there 20:58:01 so you can always, e.g., just say "oh and here's some strings to append" 20:58:33 alise, I have custom ports and interfaces to listen to, and a lot more 20:58:38 for sshd 20:59:48 https://svn.nixos.org/viewvc/nix/nixos/trunk/modules/services/networking/ssh/sshd.nix?revision=23872 appears to not have an append option, but i presume that's just because it's early days -- and nothing at all stops you from just making your own version of that file with such an option 21:00:26 alise, there are a few config files that are often customised a lot and are very expressive. HTTPd and DNSds come to mind. As do radvd, ipsec stuff and sshd 21:00:51 s write your own service file that just writes the right config file :P 21:00:52 *so 21:01:00 from a config setting 21:01:11 mhm 21:01:34 alise, does the config do heredocs? sshd config would be non-trivial without that since it uses indention for blocks 21:01:46 '''...''' 21:01:51 erm 21:01:54 ''...'' 21:02:00 as seen in https://svn.nixos.org/viewvc/nix/nixos/trunk/modules/services/networking/ssh/sshd.nix?revision=23872 21:02:08 ah nice 21:02:26 anyway yeah that file is too limited for me 21:02:57 alise, for now I stay on arch, but nixos seems like an interesting distro, especially when it matured a bit 21:03:36 it's existed for two years or so :P 21:03:41 but yeah, early days 21:03:45 since it started out as academic 21:03:49 arch is quite mature in a paradoxical way. 21:04:03 On one hand it uses bleeding edge software, on the other hand the distro itself, the configuration stuff, and the community is quite mature 21:04:21 19:17:11 flash keeps crashing 21:04:22 19:17:21 I wonder if it's an old version 21:04:24 no, it just does that 21:04:32 Vorpal: the community is immature :) 21:04:35 sure mature as in age but the people... 21:04:41 alise, depends which part of it 21:04:45 can telnet operate in anything except full duplex? <-- actually yes, but it doesn't work properly with curses 21:05:01 Duplex? 21:05:08 ais523, why? telnet runs over tcp, tcp provides full duplex 21:05:11 but IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is designed to take a full-duplex telnet connection 21:05:15 and make it half-duplex 21:05:20 err 21:05:21 what? 21:05:26 by working out when the other side has finished sending 21:05:30 ah 21:05:42 Phantom_Hoover, google 21:06:02 Phantom_Hoover: "sending and receiving", in this concept 21:06:04 Two-way? 21:06:06 Ah. 21:06:09 full duplex does both at once, half duplex does one at the time 21:06:10 *in this context 21:06:22 Phantom_Hoover, how tricky would it have been to use google 21:06:27 What about null-duplex? 21:06:54 if it had any meaning I think it would be "disconnected" 21:07:28 Vorpal, oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to use google 21:08:32 alise, btw I looked at urbit and my first reaction was "wtf", the next one was "okay, the guy who designed that is a theorist, something like a+b looks like it would need O(n)..." 21:09:09 Urbit? 21:09:15 yeah, well, you are manifestly not the target audience. 21:09:17 alise, if I was about to design a language to actually be practically usable I wouldn't start out with lambda calculus and try to write an optimising compiler for it. 21:09:29 Phantom_Hoover: a manifesto in two parts: 21:09:30 well sure it isn't exactly lambda calculus 21:09:31 http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html 21:09:32 http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html 21:09:34 but about as efficient 21:09:37 as far as I can tell 21:09:38 Vorpal, you have no VISION 21:09:39 Vorpal: it isn't even vaguely like the lambda calculus. 21:09:49 Phantom_Hoover: he's right in that addition is O(n) or something like it. 21:09:51 anyway, read the two posts. 21:09:57 the networking stuff is close to bang on. the rest is at least mind-expanding. 21:10:06 alise, using the standard unary definition? 21:10:07 alise, and multiplication is about O(n^2) at least 21:10:11 if not worse 21:10:29 erm it's decrement that's difficult 21:10:34 Phantom_Hoover: it has integers built in; anyway, just give them a read :P 21:10:45 alise, and yes, decrement I have no clue how to do 21:10:50 keep a list of integers? 21:10:52 or something 21:11:05 considering his challenge for basic competency is to construct decrement, you're definitely losing 21:11:07 Vorpal, does it use Church numerals or their approximants? 21:11:17 Phantom_Hoover: it has native integers. 21:11:29 Vorpal: he explains how to do it efficiently with jets in the Urbit post. 21:11:34 Phantom_Hoover, not church numerals, but it has a successor function but no addition or such 21:11:43 no predecessor iirc 21:11:57 alise, so yeah, doing it in the compiler basically 21:12:02 anyway, an innovator sees an idea and thinks "in what ways is this interesting?", not "in what ways is this flawed?" 21:12:03 Vorpal: no. 21:12:09 Vorpal: i will field no further loaded questions on the subject. 21:12:11 hm 21:12:14 okay 21:12:17 Vorpal, \(_,x) -> (x, S x) is the easiest way in the pure LC. 21:12:39 Phantom_Hoover, this is not LC. I only said it looked about as efficient for practical implementation. 21:12:47 which is "not very" 21:13:35 alise, loaded? huh. Whatever. 21:13:50 alise, and I think it is interesting. Just utterly impractical :P 21:14:00 alise, as an esolang it would be quite cool 21:20:55 -!- augur has joined. 21:25:47 what's LC? 21:26:32 lambda c 21:26:36 the rest is obvio 21:26:36 ah 21:26:59 i've got a chair hat 21:26:59 alise, Lambda C99 21:27:00 hm 21:27:09 alise, or... lambda C++! 21:27:11 XD 21:27:55 my friend asked me did I ever coded in A and B languages 21:28:09 i told him that i don't know such langs 21:28:19 B does exist, at least 21:28:32 and then he started talking total bullshit about them 21:28:42 probably he was completely making everything up 21:28:48 "" 21:28:50 There is no A, though. 21:29:00 "A is even harder than C man" 21:29:00 there probably is, but it's likely unrelated 21:29:04 there's also a D 21:29:08 and various other letters 21:29:09 B was preceded by something else iirc? 21:29:13 Vorpal: BCPL 21:29:13 B.. 21:29:15 yep, BCPL 21:29:15 ah 21:29:18 yeah that's it 21:29:22 the new lang was called B so as to save three bytes 21:29:27 XD 21:29:33 which I think was a joke, even though memory was tight at the time 21:29:47 B is probably more familiar to you than BCPL. 21:30:02 ais523, good thing we didn't get the zero length string as a language 21:30:11 that would have been awkward 21:30:14 (it looks like a K&R C with even less type safety) 21:30:16 great esolang name idea! 21:30:26 true 21:30:37 ais523, but how would we put it on the wiki 21:30:51 ais523, btw why did you name feather "feather"? 21:30:53 under a different name, probably 21:30:57 and because it's lightweight 21:31:01 ah 21:31:01 compared to Smalltalk 21:31:07 um 21:31:08 ah 21:31:13 so feather is smalltalky 21:31:19 ais523, I can't say I have dealt enough with smalltalk to know how heavy it is 21:32:18 Vorpal: Light, except that it is on a virtual machine. 21:32:50 pikhq, you can make lightweight virtual machines 21:33:01 pikhq, and is there any specific reason you can't compile smalltalk to native code? 21:33:38 Perhaps the same reason as Lisp? 21:33:55 Phantom_Hoover, you can compile some lisps 21:34:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:34:04 But not others. 21:34:40 Phantom_Hoover, yes, scheme for example because you could suddenly redefine + to mean something else on the fly, which would hugely complicate compiling 21:35:24 pikhq: Smalltalk needs a heavy standard library to function correctly 21:35:31 or at least, in a smalltalky way 21:35:37 that can't be implemented in Smalltalk itself 21:35:46 things like class classes, etc 21:38:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:38:31 Phantom_Hoover, hm I should put up an image just to see how you will react... 21:38:35 Vorpal: Smalltalk is kinda set up assuming that it *is the system*. You *could* compile it, but it's not very Smalltalky. 21:38:40 Phantom_Hoover, can you stay for maybe 5-10 minutes? 21:38:54 Vorpal, huh? 21:39:00 You confuse me. 21:39:21 I may have to drag benuphoenix in here 21:39:42 Sgeo, who? 21:44:57 ais523: did you answer my question about my "AI"? sorry, i've lost track of backlog 21:45:41 Phantom_Hoover, I have verified that this doesn't crash my browser, can't know if it crashes your of course. It shouldn't. http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/test.png 21:45:59 after all it is just 16 kB 21:46:14 actually 13 21:46:22 (was using du -sh not du -bsh) 21:46:26 What an impressively stupidly empty image. 21:46:29 No crash here 21:46:31 alise, indeed 21:46:36 Was that really what you sent Phantom_Hoover two vague messages about? 21:46:37 Really? 21:46:38 alise, i just want to test a theory 21:46:49 alise, he said he crashed on my panoramas 21:47:03 alise, I want to test if it is large image file or large image size that does it 21:47:14 alise, anyway it isn't empy 21:47:25 alise, check the two outermost pixles on left and right 21:47:53 >Sgeo< CTCP VERSION 21:47:53 -Sgeo- VERSION xchat 0.26.1 Linux 2.6.32-24-generic [i686 21:47:56 Hmm... 21:48:06 though 21:48:11 Phantom_Hoover seems to have timed out eh? 21:48:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 21:48:19 Sgeo: what? 21:48:19 Phantom_Hoover_, so what happened? 21:48:22 Vorpal, I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY YOU BASTARD 21:48:31 The weirdly low-looking version 21:48:44 Phantom_Hoover_, a few questions: What OS? What browser (and version)? How much RAM? 21:48:46 Sgeo: that's xchat-gnome's version? 21:48:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:48:50 Yes 21:48:52 Phantom_Hoover_: you don't have to answer that. 21:48:53 Phantom_Hoover_, I'm trying to help you here, diagnosing the cause! 21:48:54 Sgeo: *. 21:48:55 not ? 21:48:59 But someone might think it's plain XChat 21:49:08 Sgeo: Oh noooooooooooo 21:49:22 And think it's an absurdly low version 21:49:32 Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 21:49:33 Phantom_Hoover_, I can see how it would cause issues if you have 128 MB RAM 21:49:37 but anything modern? No 21:49:40 Vorpal, Ubuntu 10.04 64-bit. Firefox 3.6. 3GB. 21:49:55 AH THE PROBLEM IS UBUNTU 21:50:15 Phantom_Hoover_, then your system is broken. It works fine on my ubuntu of same version, 64-bit, Firefox 3.6 with just 2 GB RAM 21:50:24 and it works fine on my desktop with 1.5 GB RAM 21:50:46 Phantom_Hoover_, I tested in firefox. Firefox got slow for about 5 seconds on my old sempron CPU then showed the image 21:50:50 Yes. Your system is broken. That is the only explanation. You are inadequate. 21:51:32 alise, yes because it doesn't happen to anyone else and he has more RAM than me (and RAM is the only real potential issue). This leaves firefox or the system being broken. 21:51:44 Phantom_Hoover_, perhaps it is some firefox addon that causes this? 21:51:51 it used to happen to me. 21:52:12 alise, do you remember what changed when it stopped happening? 21:52:30 nope. 21:52:53 hm 21:53:25 Phantom_Hoover_, it might be worth trying firefox in safe mode on that page 21:53:43 that would be: firefox -safe-mode 21:54:06 Is xtrlock acceptable? 21:54:07 Maybe xlockmore 21:54:40 Sgeo, what do they do? 21:55:06 Sgeo, x screen lockers? then I suggest using whatever the DE uses by default or slock 21:55:15 Or maybe I should just set a password 21:55:28 Sgeo, you should have a password on your user of course 21:55:32 I presumed you already did 21:55:43 I'm using a LiveUSB-like thingy 21:55:49 Maybe I should switch to Knoppix 21:56:01 Might be easier to boot from CD and read data from USB 21:56:06 With Knoppix 21:56:12 Sgeo: slock 21:56:18 Also, no, it's not. 21:56:20 Keep using Ubuntu. 21:57:09 What does Ubuntu have that Knoppix doesn't, besides GNOME and installability? 21:57:12 BRB 21:57:17 Phantom_Hoover_, did you hear the disk access a lot during the freeze? 21:57:27 Phantom_Hoover_, indicating swap trashing 21:57:31 Ok, GNOME's lock screen thingy doesn't work 21:57:49 Vorpal, the disk access light was off. 21:58:03 Phantom_Hoover_, hrrm 21:58:07 Well, it blinked occasionally, but not often. 21:58:17 (At least, I assume it's the disk access light.) 21:58:23 Phantom_Hoover_, did sysrq work? could you switch to a terminal with ctrl-alt-F1? 21:58:50 Phantom_Hoover_, I assume you tried both 21:58:54 Yes to the first, no to the second. 21:58:58 alise, answer please? 21:59:22 Phantom_Hoover_, hm 21:59:38 Phantom_Hoover_, anyway, can you wget it and open it in gimp without issues? That shouldn't crash. 21:59:43 Sgeo: what? 21:59:48 as in, there is no plausible way it could 21:59:50 Sgeo, surely those two things are pretty good. 21:59:56 What does Ubuntu have that Windows doesn't? 22:00:02 There is no reason to arbitrarily pick an inferior option merely because it is different. 22:00:27 Phantom_Hoover_, oh and what GPU? I'm considering if it could be some obscure hw double buffer size thingy limit, but firefox probably doesn't do zooming in opengl, so unlikely 22:01:31 Vorpal, a) I didn't try to zoom; b) my GPU is whatever crap Intel glued to the motherboard. 22:01:37 -!- Sgeo|irssi has joined. 22:01:42 i3lock != slock? 22:01:44 * Sgeo|irssi now hates alise 22:01:46 SLOCK JUST USE SLOCK DAMMIT 22:01:53 i never said i3lock 22:01:54 alise: There was no slock package 22:01:56 Just i3lock 22:02:01 So fucking compile it! 22:02:05 Which was supposedly an improved version of slock 22:02:06 it's one make! 22:02:11 -!- trinithis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:02:12 Phantom_Hoover_, works for me on intel crap so hm 22:02:15 X seems to be frozen 22:02:15 Anyway, what's wrong with it? 22:02:19 You type your password in the screen. 22:02:20 How do I unfreeze i3lock? 22:02:24 You type your password. 22:02:34 alise, i3lock != slock 22:02:38 it's a fork 22:02:39 of slock 22:02:42 i just looked it up 22:02:44 ah 22:02:54 Sgeo|irssi, there is no password prompt, type password, hit enter 22:02:56 There was never a prompt to type it 22:02:57 Ah 22:02:59 Sgeo|irssi, that's all 22:03:05 ugh, i3lock uses pam. and supports backgrounds. and beeps on wrong passwords (pointless). and uses PAM 22:03:08 how crappy 22:03:28 What's so wrong with backgrounds? 22:03:31 alise, pam has the advantage of supporting stuff like ldap 22:03:32 and such 22:03:41 but pam sucks :P 22:03:47 Phantom_Hoover_: slock is minimalist code. 22:03:57 alise, sure, but there is no other alternative that exists today 22:03:58 i know you've never heard of minimalism, but there you go 22:04:03 Vorpal: not using LDAP 22:04:09 alise, true, kerberos then 22:04:16 alise, I've heard of minimalism! 22:04:19 Vorpal: not using kerberos 22:04:20 erm 22:04:21 Phantom_Hoover_: *Sgeo: 22:04:26 -!- trinithis has joined. 22:04:26 no wait 22:04:28 *Phantom_Hoover_: 22:04:29 whatever 22:04:31 you all suck 22:04:40 I resent that remark! 22:04:40 I think pam is moderately useful 22:04:43 but that's all 22:05:26 ~/exit 22:05:28 -!- Sgeo|irssi has quit (Client Quit). 22:05:28 Phantom_Hoover_: *resemble 22:05:29 alise, I'm sure you wouldn't want plain shadow auth if you had to admin a network of 200 workstations with hundred of users where everyone could log in at any computer 22:05:32 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:05:35 alise, say, university network 22:05:43 alise, then you might see the point of network auth 22:05:43 alise, *represent 22:05:44 :P 22:05:48 Vorpal: yeah, well, sysadminning is hell. 22:05:51 which is why only the stupid do it 22:05:59 alise, of course 22:06:10 alise, but I'm just saying *network auth is sometimes useful* 22:06:15 blah blah blah robots 22:06:28 alise, and *there exists no other good alternative to pam currently for this* 22:06:44 I'm not saying I like pam, I don't 22:06:48 I think it is a mess 22:06:57 robots 22:06:59 but yeah, until someone written an alternative it is useful 22:07:03 alise, robots how? 22:07:04 DOes ActiveDirectory do something similar? 22:07:06 *Does 22:07:09 botorobotatics 22:07:20 Sgeo, activedirectory is iirc ldap + MS extensions 22:09:06 alise, PAM is very much like unix: it isn't perfect, but it works (of course, in many other senses it is very different, such as "keep it simple", pam doesn't) 22:09:21 very much like Windows in that way too. 22:09:27 alise, indeed 22:09:34 alise, very much like x86! 22:09:47 alise, heck it is very much like mostly everything mainstream 22:10:37 19:48:09 The reason I want it spun down is to avoid damaging it further 22:10:42 you can't spin it down and rescue it at the same time... 22:11:09 alise, I gave up on rescuing it for the moment 22:11:44 I will leave further disk rescue help to you alise. I will have a hard time explaining the indention on my face matching the couture of the front of my desk. 22:12:13 i defer future disk rescue help to Vorpal 22:12:17 how convenient 22:12:18 Sgeo, you have just been acting too stupidly through all this to get any further help from me. 22:12:22 now night → 22:12:57 o.O 22:13:32 I have another computer that I think I'm going to use for this 22:16:15 21:52:22 what's the minimum one would need to do to make plain TeX turing-complete? 22:16:16 it already is 22:16:19 My understanding is that I could, in fact, pause it 22:17:55 ... 22:17:56 alise? 22:18:32 you can, but doing it across machines is dumb. and your drive is losing data every time you touch it, which is why you try and avoid doing anything but recovering it as soon as it happens. 22:18:37 also, i defer to Vorpal. 22:18:39 Hypothesis: all operating system ads are so obnoxious that the rage of people watching them could be used for power. Discuss. 22:18:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:19:14 I didn't realize it would take that long 22:19:30 Leaving it would have meant needing to pause it before Mondays and Wednesdays, and resuming when I got back 22:21:04 I'm going to get ready to go home, I think 22:21:07 Bye for now all 22:21:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 22:22:10 Phantom_Hoover_: There are several people rolling in their graves right now; that's more efficient. 22:22:15 I forget who my main idea was. 22:26:18 Is there a non-obnoxious OS ad? 22:26:38 i.e. one which actually makes you think "hey, I might install this." 22:29:09 no 22:29:21 well some of the proposed linux ones were funny but they didn't win 22:31:18 Link? 22:33:55 long lost it by now 22:36:48 * Phantom_Hoover_ → sleep 22:36:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:47:09 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:53:35 -!- augur has joined. 23:01:40 welll 23:03:31 ia Atat a nice name? 23:09:53 for? 23:11:43 ais523: is "Student-Friendly Summary" allowed on Wikipedia?... 23:11:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pressure 23:11:54 sounds like Here We Do Your Homework In The First Paragraph 23:12:10 for a library 23:12:28 nooga: doing? 23:12:57 regex 23:13:44 nooga: sane style or stupid style? 23:14:51 stupid 23:15:15 -!- cpressey has joined. 23:18:15 alise: that doesn't really sound like it fits the style guides... 23:18:24 but I haven't read them for years 23:18:36 the link has it; I'm just pondering whether to remove it with a chainsaw or not 23:18:48 [[Standard conditions for atmosphere and pressure]] 23:38:07 *sigh* the US. 23:38:18 budzilla 23:38:20 Where auto ownership is nearly mandatory. 23:53:33 And yet radio ownership continues to be optional. Hard to conceive, isn't it. 23:53:40 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:55:53 actually, there's a proposed law in the US government (I'm not sure which branch, offhand) to make FM radios mandatory on mobile phones 23:56:01 I doubt it'll get very far, it's so ridiculous... 23:59:36 ais523: The RIAA was advocating that the FCC mandate it. 23:59:49 Yes, the RIAA, bastion of retardedness. 23:59:50 heh