< 1283904042 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1283904047 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried coding in unlambda once < 1283904052 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got scared :( < 1283904058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1283904078 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I just said fuck it and wrote a new language < 1283904080 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283904084 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And such is the story of Lazy Bird. < 1283904126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got lazy and gave unlambda the bird < 1283904137 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p. much < 1283904150 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in summary, unlambda is just another comninatory logic language < 1283904185 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't understand all that d and eager interpretation < 1283904194 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "just another" is a strange way to put it < 1283904204 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the one most people think about. < 1283904216 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess Lazy K, too < 1283904250 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283904254 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like saying brainfuck is just another brainfuck clone < 1283904350 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit... but probably more like saying brainfuck is just another P'' clone < 1283904394 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1283904408 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL is just another esolang~ < 1283904456 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the most awesome thing about INTERCAL is that it was written on punchcards < 1283904465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines are just another turing machine < 1283904480 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursion is just another recursion < 1283904480 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, Turing machines are just another Post machine < 1283904484 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheheh < 1283905132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah is just another Slereah < 1283905290 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is troo < 1283905376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1283906260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :death on a death stick < 1283906400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Faith healing makes Baby Hyppocrates cry. < 1283906405 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello. < 1283906429 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bibbles at that supposed to be Hippocrates < 1283906444 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hippocrates wasn't a paragon of science, either < 1283906452 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyppocrates is hypocritical hippocrates, obviously. < 1283906466 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But well, it was a few milleuniums ago, so I'll let it slide < 1283906498 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back then people were big on things being true just because it's a nice idea. < 1283906509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop saying bibbles < 1283906521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :teehee bibbles x3 < 1283906714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:04:45 betwixt? < 1283906714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:07:39 it's weird when you hear it in a pop song < 1283906715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1283906720 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bibble bobble blubble blebble < 1283906726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buble < 1283906734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"OH BABY I WANNA BE BETWIXT YOU AND ANOTHER FEMALE" < 1283906746 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :betwixt is weird enough in day-to-day conversation, but even weirder in a pop song < 1283906846 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and it's way past bedtime < 1283906949 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :betwixt my buttocks < 1283906987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:20:19 oerjan: I know I've seen a paper trying to extend CA results to "infinitely small cells" < 1283906992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a continuous discrete automation, you might say < 1283907078 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it above Turing completeness? < 1283907096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1283907103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe! < 1283907106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows! < 1283907160 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like the kind of thing that might be. < 1283907178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it almost certainly isnt. < 1283907185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:51:02 hard-on crime < 1283907187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1283907203 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: can i commit a hard-on crime against you < 1283907216 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur : Why not < 1283907248 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two things told me it might be < 1283907253 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) it uses the continuum < 1283907260 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 2) you can't actually program it < 1283907262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for one, such things are usually calculable with differential equations < 1283907270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, you have to define it using differential equations, do. < 1283907277 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you? < 1283907287 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could activate a non-measurable set of cells < 1283907289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you define it some other way, you've still defined it < 1283907308 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because you can define it doesn't mean you can compute it! < 1283907322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can define the computational mechanism i think it does < 1283907322 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it might not be, but well < 1283907326 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah < 1283907331 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so! < 1283907338 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's many computational mechanisms that are >TC < 1283907340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not, but. < 1283907346 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just can't be built or emulated < 1283907363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think in this case you can both define the thing and calculate its behavior < 1283907364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1283907404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1283907419 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'd have to see the article to know < 1283907753 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh... I should go out, but I'm so tired... < 1283907764 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well. sardines in the upper reaches of the math building should be fun < 1283908026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sardines are NEVER FUN < 1283908031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are EVIL. < 1283908050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game < 1283908058 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, leaving < 1283908065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a 10 minute walk and it starts in 8 minutes < 1283908848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night. < 1283908849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1283908850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1283910881 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-203-50.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283911188 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1283912702 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-203-50.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283912881 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello everyone, I have come here for some suggestions about this esolang I have been creating. link: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/OTOH < 1283912883 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am curious as to whether adding a clone command, aka copies the value of one hand into another (non-destructively) would render the language too easy to use, rendering it a "bad" esolang. < 1283913279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking motherfucking FUCK YOU SCIFI CHANNEL < 1283913305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SyFy Channel teaming up with Billy Ray Cyrus for a new show where he investigates UFOs." < 1283913317 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god... < 1283913434 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would they do that? < 1283913457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you. < 1283913803 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1283914370 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang != turing tarpit < 1283914956 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But turing tarpit ? esolang :o < 1283914977 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing tarpit implies esoteric, but esoteric does not imply turing tarpit < 1283914984 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∈. < 1283915004 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but the most popular ones are the tarpit. < 1283915054 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to #tarpit < 1283915106 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least if we were #tarpit, we wouldn't get so many wouldbe magicians :3 < 1283915186 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1283915740 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283915988 0 :olsner_!~sal@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1283916162 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283916374 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: No, but we'd get tar-fetishists. < 1283916796 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hawt < 1283918585 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283919539 0 :perdito!~hagbard@xdsl-87-78-129-69.netcologne.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1283919543 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1283919622 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi perdito < 1283919631 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, have you ever been here before? < 1283919641 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope.. hi sgeo < 1283919656 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to be sure: What do you think this channel is about? < 1283919661 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No offense, and you are welcome here < 1283919667 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'ello < 1283919671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that some people come here with an incorrect idea < 1283919701 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1283919736 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check topic infos < 1283919767 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1283919813 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel is about worshipping Isis < 1283919829 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1283919842 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hail eris < 1283919844 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hail isis < 1283919875 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are esoteric programming languages? < 1283919882 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russian < 1283919886 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spanish < 1283919899 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perdito: Programming languages with little practical use, like INTERCAL < 1283919968 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1283919983 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i like this place < 1283919988 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, we discuess a lot of random stuff in here < 1283920005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 40% of the time, it's related to computer science < 1283920016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 50% of the time, it's related to other computer stuff < 1283920020 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of the rest is politics < 1283920029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or linguistics. < 1283920065 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope you'll excuse my poor english then.. but i'd like to stay and listen for a while < 1283920080 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe learn something < 1283920105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perdito: Your English doesn't seem poor to me. < 1283920119 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, I forgot about linguistics < 1283920124 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like 10% all on its own < 1283920127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, that may just be the brutal assault that Japanese has had on my senses of bad English. :P < 1283920147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than the Internet grammar, it seems fine < 1283920157 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx pikhq, but i think you'll change your mind soon enough < 1283920158 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1283920163 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yours isn't particularly bad, perdito < 1283920174 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thank you < 1283920178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perdito: Believe me, I've seen worse. From native speakers of English. < 1283920184 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far, far worse < 1283920190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1283920191 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've read high school essays < 1283920199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As have I. < 1283920215 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Your English is better than that of the typical high school essay, believe it or not) < 1283920271 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k.. so most of you are programmers or sth? < 1283920273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, definitely. The only things that differ from "correct" are just common traits of — what I shall now call — Internet Vernacular English. < 1283920275 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :wareya < 1283920286 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perdito: Pretty much all programmers here. < 1283920309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily in a professional capacity, though. < 1283920366 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of us are students, others are just people in different fields that enjoy bizarre programs. And then there's fungot. < 1283920367 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right out right outside of philadelphia yeah so am i < 1283920403 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scott Meyer is trying to kill me < 1283920423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Do tell. < 1283920444 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If laughter can be fatal... < 1283920449 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://basicinstructions.net/ < 1283920462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaah. Yes. < 1283922308 0 :TheProtomotor!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1283922434 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders if there's any languages that have the sort of libraries Factor has < 1283922457 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Factor has Erlang-style concurrency, some parser thing, call/cc < 1283922463 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, a lot of other stuff < 1283923246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION explodes < 1283923378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1283923407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION types in 変なコマーシャル (strange commercial) into Youtube to see what comes up < 1283923472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that was pretty weird. < 1283923475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1jKAp9KEUs < 1283923481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Understanding it doesn't help. < 1283923517 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@64.231.55.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283923808 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1283927538 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283927600 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283928002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283929175 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1283930120 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1283932799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1283932800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1283932921 0 :relet!~hirtho@95.215.120.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283933178 0 :cheater00!~cheater@p549736D2.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283933405 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283933415 0 :perdito!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283934191 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-15-105.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283934282 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1283934419 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283935017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?C+style+constants -- ha, Befunge is objectively a better language than Java. < 1283935063 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283935263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all < 1283937759 0 :atrapado!~ro@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283938376 0 :relet!~hirtho@95.215.120.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283938560 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1283938660 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283938690 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1283938837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "SyFy Channel teaming up with Billy Ray Cyrus for a new show where he investigates UFOs." < 1283938847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfectly good science fiction, that... < 1283938979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SyFy" is still a silly name. < 1283939012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is commenting on nothing but this particular event < 1283939100 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1283939538 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283941004 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have cable, does that mean you are... SyFy-less? < 1283941045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...is there a pun in there somewhere? < 1283941060 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's buried deep, but if you dig you can find it < 1283941066 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :myndzi < 1283941073 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(syphillis) < 1283941077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1283941120 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1283941126 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that's what comes to mind whenever i read SyFy < 1283941142 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ironic seeing as how i use a y in my nick for a long i sound < 1283941154 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i see SyFy and read "siphee" < 1283941339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Officially it's pronounced just like "sci-fi", except that now they can trademark it. < 1283941369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did catch the syphilis pun, but couldn't come up with a STD counter-pun in time. < 1283941778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you didn't have the right aids < 1283942358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to applaud you for that: clap, clap, clap. < 1283942526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a near-whoosh experience < 1283942913 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. gonorrhea, gonorrhoea, clap -- (a common venereal disease caused by the bacterium Neisseria gonorrhoeae; symptoms are painful urination and pain around the urethra) -- just in case it whooshed by someone completely. < 1283942945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gahh. Stop erroring, you stupid script! < 1283943002 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"exception: PreModule: The file has invalid dimension". Graa, why can't you say which file is "the file", and what is this "dimension" it has and what it should have. < 1283943031 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language < 1283943142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The exception came from an ugly C++ blob. < 1283943169 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1283943180 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the worst < 1283943286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file I think it should be reading does have the right dimension, but since it doesn't bother saying the file name, I can't quite be certain it's reading the right file. < 1283943625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's the *other* file that's wrong. < 1283943654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well files contain strings, which is clearly related to string theory, which has extra dimensions. you must have got an invalid one into the mix. < 1283943728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try and see if you can extract it, it might contain the secret to FTL travel < 1283943975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to the thing, it was supposed to have 21 dimensions, but it had 4290576399 of them instead. < 1283944052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1283944339 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1283945154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1283945246 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1283947411 0 :relet!~hirtho@95.215.120.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283947988 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283948099 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283948235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1283948295 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1283948361 0 :Zuu!zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1283948371 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1283948371 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283948762 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zuu < 1283948779 0 :Akash!~chatzilla@1.186.1.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283949966 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283950250 0 :Akash!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283950656 0 :Akash!~chatzilla@1.186.1.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283950698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283950732 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283950991 0 :Akash!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283951984 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-1-218.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283952057 0 :Akash!~chatzilla@1.186.1.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283952649 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga < 1283953822 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283954922 0 :Akash!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283955663 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf are you? < 1283955760 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are bird-like things called Zuu in many of the Final Fantasy games, but that might be completely irrelevant. < 1283956049 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1283956094 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, im certainly not a wtf < 1283956298 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283956384 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283956409 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283958218 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf -> Who the f**k < 1283958297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283958298 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283958306 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283958446 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283958508 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E6CA1.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283959120 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283959826 0 :relet!~hirtho@95.215.120.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283960135 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I started writing up my apply/ylppa language, and while the two operations have some nice properties (like (x/y)*y=x, and x/x=1,) I don't think I can make it into one of those "mainstream" algebraic structures (like a group) because both operations are non-associative, and I can't see any way offhand to make them associative. < 1283960213 0 :distant_figure!~nine@41-133-148-136.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1283960541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ylppö" is a Finnish male name (c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvo_Ylppö); I can't not think of it every time you say "ylppa". < 1283960548 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, surname, I mean. < 1283960657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283960852 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kokopk < 1283961396 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283961636 0 :Phantom_Hoover!5ead1d47@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.173.29.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283961651 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, everybody! < 1283961681 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Phantom_Hoover! < 1283961697 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close! < 1283961801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:50:29 unlambda in unlambda 15:51:21 that's just not right <-- Unlambda in Lazy K is even shorter, I think. < 1283962025 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, Dr. Nick! < 1283962221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BINGO < 1283962256 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1283962267 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1283962268 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1283962268 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        /< < 1283962280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1283962539 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'm in ur irc channel, makin u think names < 1283962608 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1283962627 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283963000 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283963018 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283963349 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283963382 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283963676 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't /tmp kind of an "antipattern" (though I despise that word)? ~/tmp would be better, except for the doesn't-count-for-quota/could-get-deleted-at-any-time rules, but those could be implemented some other way. < 1283963702 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symlink into a private subdir of /tmp, for example < 1283963712 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, TOO LATE < 1283963745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1283964590 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: seekurrity < 1283964595 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shared /tmp sucks < 1283964661 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TOO LATE" meaning, god only knows how many programs already write to /tmp and use kludgey ways of compenstating for its suckage < 1283964668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*compensating < 1283964775 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283964846 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how much of the esolangs wiki is Turing tarpits. < 1283964865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how much is languages with single-character syntax. < 1283964930 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not *too* many "unary languages", I hope < 1283964955 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a *lot*. < 1283964976 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot, like 5? < 1283965007 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, unclear. < 1283965039 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean syntaxes like Brainfuck and Lazy K. < 1283965109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hah, yeah, not what I was thinking. < 1283965124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program in a single-character language, to me: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| < 1283965148 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Single-character tokens in syntax, I get ya. < 1283965272 0 :calamari!~kidsquid@206.29.188.184 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283965361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many of them are like that because the designer had an idea but couldn't be bothered writing a parser? < 1283965558 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Isn't /tmp kind of an "antipattern" (though I despise that word)? ~/tmp would be better, except for the doesn't-count-for-quota/could-get-deleted-at-any-time rules, but those could be implemented some other way. <-- what if /home is on, for example, nfs? < 1283965567 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while /tmp is then presumably local < 1283965581 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, of course you could make login scripts mount /home/whatever/tmp < 1283965595 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, complicates things < 1283965616 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the symlink thing < 1283965618 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a good idea < 1283965665 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1283965679 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well you need a parser for brainfuck < 1283965705 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, while for befunge... you don't < 1283965715 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for brainfuck you need to match up [ and ] < 1283965716 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need much of one for BF, though. < 1283965729 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, indeed. A simple recursive one works very nicely < 1283965838 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can write a BF interpreter sans parser, but it's ugly.) < 1283965996 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1283966055 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, parsing INTERCAL is rather harder. < 1283966116 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283966137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 15:50:29 unlambda in unlambda 15:51:21 that's just not right <-- Unlambda in Lazy K is even shorter, I think. < 1283966170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would be surprised if that were the case, after stripping comments and whitespace at least < 1283966193 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long is your one? < 1283966214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme check < 1283966275 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3K for the Lazy K one. < 1283966312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*4K < 1283966315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn rounding! < 1283966393 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283966417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't even necessarily need a symlink in ~, just something to generate /tmp/foo for each user, and set TMPDIR to that. Though I'm sure there's an uncountable number of apps that have "/tmp" hardcoded. < 1283966479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approx 1928 stripped (approx because it might also strip a few chars from the character table) < 1283966486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(chars) < 1283966510 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well. < 1283966581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8196 unstripped < 1283966604 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stripped? < 1283966615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of comments etc? < 1283966620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1283966623 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION -> stuff < 1283966703 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f*#(*# prolog < 1283966713 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't figure out how to zip lists < 1283966731 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was easier even in Haskell < 1283966789 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (You can write a BF interpreter sans parser, but it's ugly.) <-- one that interprets directly and then seeks on the source to find matching [ and ] ? < 1283966891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1283966897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like zip([X|XS],[Y|YS],[Z|ZS]) :- tuple(X,Y,Z), zip(XS,YS,ZS). for the main case, assuming i remember syntax right < 1283966925 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the most straight forward way to find such would be to grep in /usr/bin for the string /tmp and then in that set grep for those that doesn't also contain TMPDIR (in case they check TMPDIR then fall back to /tmp if missing) < 1283966929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zip([], [], []). zip([A|As], [B|Bs], [[A,B]|Cs]) :- zip(As, Bs, Cs). -- if you want to handle just two lists, and want "tuples" made out of two-element lists. < 1283966986 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm environment is rather inefficient, as far as I know it is stored as an unsorted array of char* < 1283966999 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be better if it used some sort of binary search tree < 1283967013 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit < 1283967031 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked < 1283967047 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday alise came up with something pretty simmilar but then it didn't work < 1283967071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Isn't /tmp kind of an "antipattern" (though I despise that word)? ~/tmp would be better, except for the doesn't-count-for-quota/could-get-deleted-at-any-time rules, but those could be implemented some other way. < 1283967096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um isn't there an actual function for getting a temp file... < 1283967102 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think an implementation is forbidden to maintain some sort of a lookup-helper structure for the environment, but I don't know any that do. < 1283967110 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, several even. < 1283967146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't they look at the $TEMP variable or something, or was it $TMPDIR < 1283967149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkstemp, mktemp, tempnam, tmpnam and tmpfile, at least. < 1283967161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many do look for TMPDIR. < 1283967174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the antipattern would be rolling your own, wouldn't it < 1283967304 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mkstemp iirc only fills in the Xes at the end of the string? < 1283967327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The functions, or at least those that actually create the file instead of just returning a name for it, also to some degree handle awful race conditions where you choose a nonexisting file name, then try to open it, and meanwhile some other process goes and creates that file. < 1283967364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess mkstemp/mktemp only use a template you provide. < 1283967416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmpfile() in glibc seems to do this: "[POSIX] does not specify the directory that tmpfile() will use. Glibc will try the path prefix P_tmpdir defined in , and if that fails the directory /tmp." < 1283967426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it doesn't even look at the environment. < 1283967449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds today's mezzacotta somewhat amusing < 1283967695 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1283967779 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A common (read: seen in more than one place) Linux-demoscene trick to make a "transparently" decompressing "executable" is to put "x=/tmp/Q;tail -n+2 $0|bzcat>$x;chmod +x $x;$x;rm $x;exit" on one line, and concatenate a bzip2'd (or lzcat+lzma, or xzcat+xz) executable after that; then you just hope that the app managed to make a /tmp/Q and execute it. < 1283967827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's two bytes shorter than the arguably a tiny tiny bit cleaner version which does "x=`mktemp`;tail ..." instead. < 1283967843 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1283967892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some also leave out the "rm $x" part, that's six more bytes saved. < 1283968007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus _ensuring_ that running it twice will fail? < 1283968033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if you're the only person who keeps running it, which is quite reasonable. < 1283968042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so many people run demos on so very multiusery systems. < 1283968049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's > < 1283968144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you chmod it "a+rx" instead of just "+x", then those other people will end up running your version, also. < 1283968181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess with some umasks plain old "+x" is enough for that. < 1283968210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um wouldn't it bail out when trying to write to it < 1283968231 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, it's just commands separated with ; after all. < 1283968237 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap, i failed discrete maths < 1283968254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ false;false;false;echo "ha, I don't mind the failures" < 1283968254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, I don't mind the failures < 1283968282 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of goddamn linear algebra < 1283968305 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The tail ...>$x would fail, and the chmod would fail, but the plain "$x;" would still try to run it.) < 1283968578 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, isn't +x enough for a+x with the standard 022 umask? < 1283968618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how standard 022 is, vs. the 077. < 1283968631 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, "with some umasks". < 1283968670 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can't remember last seeing 077. Pretty sure stock arch and stock ubuntu at least both use 022 < 1283968716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. I've been setting it consistently to 077 everywhere for myself, I may have just been assuming that other people were also. < 1283968756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, /etc/login.defs "# 022 is the "historical" value in Debian for UMASK when it was used" and /etc/profile "umask 022" for this Ubuntu. < 1283968835 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 077 messes up for public_html < 1283968837 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1283968856 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer to make public only things I explicitly want to make public. < 1283968888 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah but scp file webserver:public_html and you likely end up getting 403 for it < 1283968899 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, desktop and laptop are single user systems. < 1283968969 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do that, though. I have ~/www mounted (with the gvfs nonsense nowadays) over Samba from the webserver, and have set it to override permissions there so that everything copied there goes public. < 1283969078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have started the umask 077 habit from my university shell account; though admittedly it's a bit paranoidical, having 0700 for ~ is likely to be enough to keep snooping people out. < 1283969146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?big+number+arithmetic problem had a hilariously misleading name. < 1283969256 0 :distant_figure!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sleg < 1283969414 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is very tricky without cheating < 1283969443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and based on the lengths everyone *is* cheating, with just three testcases. Still, I liked the... pun, if you can call it that. < 1283969478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, most are not marked as cheats though < 1283969507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what's the usual way of marking them is. < 1283969530 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc "(cheat)" or "(embed)" or similar < 1283969556 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283969572 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283969573 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?big+number+arithmetic this one is hard < 1283969632 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, see comments just above < 1283969664 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheating by? < 1283969666 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exec? < 1283969685 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, ... isn't it obvious? < 1283969694 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheating by just looking at two characters of the input, and deciding, based on those, whether to output one of three existing constants. < 1283969710 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 3, unless you mean those actively looked at < 1283969731 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to those you have to read in) < 1283969762 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought there are more input datasets < 1283969766 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than 3 < 1283969796 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, um? where? < 1283969827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant "actively looked at"; and you have to read in 4, because both the latter ones start with three spaces. < 1283969844 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally they don't use example data shown with the problem to actually test programs < 1283969866 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anagolf doesn't have any hidden testsets; it does say it's not serious golfing on the front page, though. < 1283969894 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1283969943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the interests of promoting cheatingship, I put in a (marked-as-such) Befunge version too, though it's a bit on the long side. < 1283970185 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you expect programmers to use an *API*? bah! < 1283970265 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, where did he say that? < 1283970289 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um isn't there an actual function for getting a temp file... < 1283970302 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry should have been < 1283970305 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, on *nix: several < 1283970324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I wasn't asking, I was quoting oerjan. < 1283970328 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1283970351 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and those doesn't put the file in any sort of $TMPDIR or such afaik < 1283970355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I like that "talking to myself" angle of that last comment. < 1283970416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: tempnam in glibc uses the $TMPDIR directory as its first priority, if set. < 1283970418 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, there? < 1283970418 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: as a as a religious fnord or not < 1283970445 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, downside: not secure < 1283970476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Meh, it's just not secure if you don't use it right... but I guess that's a reasonable concern. < 1283970478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: let's hope not < 1283970478 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah when i was going with you know like < 1283970504 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: No, I don't really know. Like what? < 1283970505 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a lot of mean l._a. it the whole experience you know so < 1283970506 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well you have to add logic to try again if it fails. < 1283970514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while mkstemp iirc does that for it < 1283970517 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for you* < 1283970539 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1283970539 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1283970548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was fisher? < 1283970557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a conversational telephone speech corpus thing. < 1283970561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style fisher < 1283970561 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) < 1283970561 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1283970571 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Catalog/CatalogEntry.jsp?catalogId=LDC2004T19 < 1283970590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not exactly sure if it's that particular set.) < 1283970621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if I really cared, I could make a distro without a /tmp dir, which complains when you try to make a dir called /tmp, and which wires up all the API's/defaults/env vars sanely, and which says "oh boo hoo" if your script breaks trying to get at /tmp... < 1283970687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're a really careful person if you really care that much. < 1283970761 0 :sleg!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :hiato < 1283970811 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I forgot to actually reply, but mktemp/mkstemp/tmpfile all handle the actual file creation for you, but none of them -- in glibc -- look at the environment for the directory. (Okay, mktemp/mkstemp can't very well, since they just use a template with substituted characters, but tmpfile could.) < 1283970864 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, issue: breaks X11 amongst other things < 1283970865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU coreutils "mktemp" binary does use $TMPDIR, though. < 1283970896 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp.X11-unix /tmp.X0-lock and /tmp.ICE-unix < 1283970902 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all have very good reasons for /tmp < 1283970907 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1283970914 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/.X11-unix /tmp/.X0-lock and /tmp/.ICE-unix < 1283970917 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1283971006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're rolling your own distro, I'm sure those *can* be moved, it might just be bit of work. < 1283971124 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1283971148 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and it will be quite a pain for users who wish to compile programs you haven't made a package for < 1283971176 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@k-165.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1283971204 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, an alternative idea that I seen in some hardened kernel patch is to add support for uid-dependant symlinks. So you make /tmp such a symlink and then it ends up pointing to different directories for different users < 1283971237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does *that* work with X's root-owned /tmp/ socket-dirs? < 1283971260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not sure. < 1283971302 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe symlink those into the tmp dir for each user? < 1283971368 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this would be easy to do on linux if only /proc/self/ had some magic $HOME symlink or such < 1283971437 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/self/cwd/proc/self/cwd $ < 1283971440 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my current prompt < 1283971454 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only works by starting from / obviously < 1283971469 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283971498 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is just a trick "confusing" bash, I think the symlinks are actually resolved when changing directory < 1283971533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/self/root/proc/self/root would always work, but it's perhaps less confusing-looking. < 1283971550 0 :hiato!~nine@41-133-148-136.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1283971554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1283971572 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, with cwd you have to remember that cd affects it < 1283971595 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus introduces a element of confusion that the root pointer doesn't < 1283971606 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, now, chrooting to /proc/self/root/proc/self/root might do the trick < 1283971633 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In most cases bash's symlink-handling works reasonably well, but it's sometimes annoying how "cd .." moves "logically" how the path-in-the-prompt would suggest, while "cp blah .." or "ls .." of course won't. < 1283971673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1283971807 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of annoyance with paths: rsync on two directories (recursively) < 1283971817 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, if one ends with / and the other argument doesn't < 1283971820 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get strange results < 1283971847 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to add it on both sides thus < 1283971952 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc the issue was that with something like rsync -r foo/ bar, it would actually sync foo/ to bar/foo/ < 1283971954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1283971973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it had some sort of logic in it that wasn't exactly obvious. < 1283971990 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, had? < 1283972011 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Had" meaning I ran into rsync directory-creation strangeness too before. < 1283972017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it technically speaking still has it. < 1283972023 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, not as in "they fixed it" then < 1283972040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not *broken*, it's just different. < 1283972098 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I seem to remember that cp(1) on openbsd or netbsd or something such had some rule that cp -r foo/ bar would do cp -r foo/* bar/ < 1283972106 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1283972118 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, might not have been that exact way to write it, as in it could have been / on the other argument or such < 1283972128 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, some strangeness on one of the *bsds < 1283972139 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might even have been mv < 1283972141 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1283972141 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, completely fucked up < 1283972160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The man page says that "rsync -av /src/foo /dest" and "rsync -av /src/foo/ /dest/foo" do the same thing; i.e. copy /src/foo's contents into /dest/foo. < 1283972162 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, XD < 1283972178 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: even the rabbits? < 1283972188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, rabbits always are < 1283972190 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucked I mean < 1283972199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yes < 1283972201 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so / on second argument? < 1283972206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, they have some sort of a mnemonic that a trailing slash in the source means "copy the contents of the directory", as opposed to "copy the directory itself". < 1283972248 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah I tend to do trailing on both ends < 1283972252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't mention (in this section I'm reading) how (or if) a trailing slash on the second argument would change the behaviour. < 1283972290 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The man page says that "rsync -av /src/foo /dest" and "rsync -av /src/foo/ /dest/foo" do the same thing; i.e. copy /src/foo's contents into /dest/foo. < 1283972291 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283972292 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also, they have some sort of a mnemonic that a trailing slash in the source means "copy the contents of the directory", as opposed to "copy the directory itself". < 1283972294 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't those < 1283972299 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contradicting each other? < 1283972316 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1283972319 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread the first one < 1283972466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sneezes bullets < 1283972504 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how does moulting work? I mean, shouldn't it get smaller over time? Like Russian dolls. Rather than larger? < 1283972580 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean for snakes and such < 1283972609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In contrast, shouldn't all non-moulting species always say the exact same size? < 1283972736 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well no, the issue with moulting to me is that the reason for doing it, seems to be that they can't expand the old skin? Right? So how can they store a larger one underneath the smaller old one? For snakes you could presumably make it elastic or fold it or such. But for some insects the exoskeleton that they shed is rigid < 1283972748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it a lot trickier < 1283972766 0 :Ilari_an1rcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari_antrcomp < 1283972786 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wikipedia claims the new one hardens over time < 1283972916 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: I like that "talking to myself" angle of that last comment. < 1283972948 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am one dangerously confused mofo! < 1283972977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bopomofo < 1283973022 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey, issue: breaks X11 amongst other things < 1283973025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh boo hoo < 1283973028 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as i said) < 1283973072 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, as a distro maintainer you would presumably have to patch the most popular packages < 1283973111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least pay some alimony. < 1283973115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey, an alternative idea that I seen in some hardened kernel patch is to add support for uid-dependant symlinks. <-- yeah, DragonFlyBSD has "varsyms" that do this sort of thing < 1283973159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm haven't used that one < 1283973181 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how is it done though? Must be out of band data for it to work < 1283973200 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of band wrt file name it points to < 1283973218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a context of substitions, like env vars, but only substituted inside link destinations, which look like: /usr/${var}/etc/whatever < 1283973219 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would incur a checking overhead < 1283973223 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1283973225 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue how large that overhead would be < 1283973248 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you as a user can always alter the varsym vars, I think, so it might not even work well for this < 1283973253 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what if I created a file named ${blargh} and wanted to symlink to it? < 1283973280 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no var expansion in filenames, only in symbolic link destinations < 1283973312 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes but consider: touch '${HOME}' && ln -s './${HOME}' ./foo < 1283973317 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a file named ${blargh} is just like a file named ${blargh} on any other unixoid < 1283973335 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see the issue here? < 1283973344 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: then ./foo can point to different things...? no, i don't see the issue < 1283973376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set varsym var HOME to '${HOME}' and it'll point to the file you just touched < 1283973379 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well it could in theory break some programs that create a symlink to a file path containing such a file or directory. Unlikely yes < 1283973382 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but could happen < 1283973397 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i'm sure it could < 1283973412 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I *think* this might make it non-POSIX compliant :P < 1283973419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are creating files named './${HOME}' you're getting what you pay for < 1283973423 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not completely sure but likely < 1283973434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: OMG NO SOMEONE PROTECT THE GEESE QUICKLY < 1283973441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION leaves for lunch < 1283973448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, which geese? *looks around* < 1283973455 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why did cpressey turn into a goose? < 1283973474 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why would he need protection? < 1283973729 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ... < 1283973848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just wanted to send you on a wild goose chase, is all < 1283973953 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hah < 1283975102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1283975297 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing with X11, IIUC, is that it is following a *different* antipattern (Man! I can't stand that word! Why do I keep using it?): it is exploiting the fact that /tmp is shared. It should instead be creating those things in /shared. Which should exist. < 1283975328 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise will probably read all this in scrollback and say, cpressey: Plan 9! < 1283975347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, stuck in the antipattern of using "antipattern" < 1283975374 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :antipattern is just another antipattern < 1283975380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACH GET IT OFF GET IT OFF < 1283975437 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/scrollback/log/ < 1283975472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Windows 3.11 for Workgroups! (It doesn't put sockets in /tmp, I'm pretty sure.) < 1283975644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends his thoughts on that to fizzie using DDE < 1283975822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I thought DDE was a heck of a lot more coherent as an IPC mechanism than OLE was < 1283975841 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is? what do they use now? i don't want to know. < 1283975857 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-203-50.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283975874 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1283975877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIL DDE TLA < 1283975890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is (or was) something COM-based now. < 1283975999 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because they have COM (and used to have .COM) and .NET doesn't mean microsoft is the internet < 1283976023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because org-mode still holds court at .org files. < 1283976068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think now-now you're supposed to use some sort of .NET IPC channels, in fact. < 1283976122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. < 1283976142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.NET Framework 2 IPC channels have been deprecated in .NET Framework 4, in favour of using Windows Communication Foundation (WCF). < 1283976160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Windows Communication Foundation (WCF) is Microsoft’s unified programming model for building service-oriented applications. It enables developers to build secure, reliable, transacted solutions that integrate across platforms and interoperate with existing investments." < 1283976170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See there, interoperate with existing investments. < 1283976301 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283976348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I have that Linux-based minimal module player code, and its stakeholder (ha, I've heard of these terms too!) wanted a Windows executable, so I quick-and-dirty ported it to use winapi "waveOutFoo" functions and linked with cross-mingw's binutils' linker; it works fine in Wine, but apparently no longer in Windows 7. < 1283976382 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to take a look at how audio should be done nowadays (the multimedia functions are from the 16-bit era, after all) but haven't yet bothered to find out how to call through COM interfaces from assembly. < 1283976595 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's just about fetching a vtable and calling via it, but gah. < 1283978121 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, can someone explain to me when I would write a monad in Haskell? < 1283978193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: When you realise that you have already written >>=. < 1283978275 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1283978618 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he should learn orn < 1283978721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The thing with X11, IIUC, is that it is following a *different* antipattern (Man! I can't stand that word! Why do I keep using it?): it is exploiting the fact that /tmp is shared. It should instead be creating those things in /shared. Which should exist. < 1283978722 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1283978730 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/var/run or similar probably < 1283978764 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think that would probably be best < 1283978778 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/var/run/X/ or such < 1283978930 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "stakeholder"? < 1283978941 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not heard of that word. Or if I have, I forgot about it < 1283979123 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to #unix_and_tarpits < 1283979156 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya, what? We discuss befunge here too. Very non-tarpitty < 1283979169 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also about everything else < 1283979169 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1283979172 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? < 1283979180 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many commands does befunge have? < 1283979183 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, yes, especially befunge98 < 1283979218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, not sure about 93. But 98 has all printable chars in ASCII mapped. A-Z are mapped to loadable extensions. Of which there exist many < 1283979224 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge is... < 1283979229 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reverse tarpit. < 1283979234 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93 has a subset of these. But even it has a pretty large instruction set < 1283979237 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya, indeed! < 1283979267 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's rediculously easy to do simple things in X ways; lim(x->inf) < 1283979273 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ridiculously* < 1283979277 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1283979280 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damned american school failed me again! < 1283979285 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I read that as C first XD < 1283979288 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1283979325 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, consider the fingerprint (loadable extension) SOCK for example. IIRC CLC-INTERCAL has some networking support, but only to other CLC-INTERCAL implementations. fungot uses SOCK to connect to IRC < 1283979326 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ( ( this is)) did we look at historical things or did we look at each other no i'm right laughter you know so < 1283979340 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and FILE to treat a file as an open stream < 1283979360 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(befunge98 has built in load/write for files, FILE is however more advanced) < 1283979501 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1283979812 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^styke < 1283979813 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1283979813 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1283979822 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style darwin < 1283979822 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) < 1283979825 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, hi there < 1283979826 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal:/ second volume/ causes and means :) temperature for corresponding times in other years. < 1283979836 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, right... < 1283979836 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: pebbles :), strewed over patagonia. --of patagonia, formation :). < 1283979946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "A corporate stakeholder is a party that can affect or be affected by the actions of the business as a whole." < 1283979986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("The term has been broadened to include anyone who has an interest in a matter.") < 1283979999 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /var/run or similar probably <--- yeah, that would be appropriate < 1283980324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: transacted solutions that interoperate. imagine that! the stakeholders will be well pleased < 1283980354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hey, can someone explain to me when I would write a monad in Haskell? < 1283980361 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: AT ANY AND ALL OCCASIONS < 1283980361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283980481 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I would suggest "never: if you need a monad you are probably doing something practical" < 1283980508 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, try instead staying completely pure. < 1283980604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a certain satisfaction one can get out of writing completely monadless code, but, monads have a place. and i wouldn't call them impure. < 1283980699 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about monads? < 1283980709 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal thinks they're impure < 1283980709 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, see log? < 1283980714 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: hey, can someone explain to me when I would write a monad in Haskell? < 1283980738 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I thought you understood monads? < 1283980740 0 :comex!comex@c-67-188-10-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283980757 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, enough to tell that they're not "impure". < 1283980787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe I mischaracterized what Vorpal said. I hope I mischaracterized what Vorpal said < 1283980796 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1283980800 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise's habits are rubbing off on me :( < 1283980802 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, of course. I was making a *joke* < 1283980813 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1283980821 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About *what*? < 1283980888 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1283980931 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, for an answer, you could look at the use cases for most of the standard monads on the Haskell wiki. < 1283981107 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, about mathematicians being too theoretical I think < 1283981132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1283981143 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it fails hugely because noöne who understands monads whatsoever thinks they are "impure". < 1283981162 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretically or not. < 1283981380 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, general question: I have a copy of "Gödel, Escher, Bach" lying around. Do I read it? < 1283981478 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, isn't that one of those book that have a low ratio of readers to owners? < 1283981495 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so it is up to you I guess < 1283981498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say I *owned* it. < 1283981505 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm < 1283981506 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I borrowed it without intent to return. < 1283981512 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that's nasty < 1283981524 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, stealing in other words < 1283981527 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the person it belongs to didn't need it any more. < 1283981535 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, he gave it to you? < 1283981538 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or she < 1283981550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, yes/ < 1283981577 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1283981582 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you own it? no? < 1283981606 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea. < 1283981637 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Do not read it. < 1283981658 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it actually the Necronomicon in disguise? < 1283981686 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I have respect for the Necronomicon. < 1283981698 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with GEB, then? < 1283981710 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GEB is not evil, it's just... spinny. < 1283981727 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW MATHEMATICS IS SUCH A TRIP < 1283981737 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spinny? < 1283981787 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How do I explain "spinny"? < 1283981801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By analogy? < 1283981862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trippy? < 1283981888 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I changed my mind. Read it. I think your system will reject it, like mine did. I mean, I can only hope. < 1283981901 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reject? < 1283981903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reject it like a donor's kidney. < 1283981907 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was actually the *issue*? < 1283981914 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Issue? Naw. < 1283981934 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the reason your mental immune system rejected it? < 1283981962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think it's because I don't consider mathematics to be a religious experience. < 1283981974 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1283981983 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, with the right dose of LSD and some luck that would probably change? < 1283981986 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Hofstader does? < 1283981987 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1283981993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *Bad* luck, I hope you mean < 1283982002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, not explicitly AFAIR. < 1283982006 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "some" does not indicate which direction < 1283982012 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But... well, read it. < 1283982014 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well it does in everyday speech < 1283982021 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but not if you actually look at what the words say < 1283982039 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Or don't. < 1283982065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My only interest is that you'll become far more obnoxious in this channel if you become one of ... *them*. < 1283982066 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it's too big to embark upon without serious and irrefutable reason to do so. < 1283982103 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, I only mean the preface, or first chapter, or whatnot. (The one where he explains to the reader what a "strange loop" is.) < 1283982134 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's Hofstaderese for recursion, isn't it? < 1283982141 0 :iGO!~xk001@62.169.121.216.rev.optimus.pt JOIN :#esoteric < 1283982151 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's Hofstaderese for OMG RECURSION BLEW MY MIND < 1283982189 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION managed to get the nats coinductively defined in Coq. < 1283982198 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is rather proud of this fact. < 1283982218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that I tend to be rather anti-Pop-Mathematics, and anti-Pop-Science, and anti-Pop-* in general. < 1283982232 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That's quite nice. < 1283982239 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you don't approve of Ian Stewart? < 1283982245 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1283982269 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There are a few small exceptions -- I said "in general". I may or may not know Ian Stewart < 1283982310 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read "The Science of Discworld"? < 1283982340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, nor have I read Discworld anything. < 1283982347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp < 1283982379 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone have an oxygen cannister? PH seems to be... subventilating < 1283982395 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oxygen.... < 1283982401 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But not Oxygene) < 1283982405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oxygen_Hoover. < 1283982415 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there? A question about Norwegian. What does "Faen" mean? < 1283982423 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I guess "the devil" based on sv:fan < 1283982428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yep < 1283982449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that related to "faun"? < 1283982453 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, google translate claims it means "fuck" for some strange reason < 1283982465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz google's fucked < 1283982467 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and it also does sv:fan -> no:fuck which seems completely broken < 1283982473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a contraction of "fanden", i don't think it's anything to do with fauns < 1283982519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well in modern norwegian it's mainly a swearword < 1283982542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1283982551 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "damn" seems more relevant < 1283982579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd use "djevelen" or "satan" if you wanted to talk about the religious matters. of course those _are_ also swearwords :) < 1283982608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "dæven" rather than "djevelen" as a swearword, mostly < 1283982633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "damn" is pretty close in meaning, yeah < 1283982644 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :djävulen hm < 1283982659 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dæven" I can't think of anything like in Swedish < 1283982720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: However, Google translate no:faen -> fi gives "naida", which is the first infinitive form of the verb, "to fuck", and is not really something that's be very commonly used as a swearword. (It's a bit on the crude side, but not actually really swearwordy.) < 1283982741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jäkel? < 1283982754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not the same for swearing, though) < 1283982762 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah google fails < 1283982775 0 :Fuzz3r!~t7DS@201.19.91.191 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283982778 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at translating that is < 1283982806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fuck" is a perfectly valid swearword in colloquial norwegian, me thinks < 1283982850 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is that here too. It can't be used in the English non-swearword sense though in Swedish. < 1283982892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the norwegian translation "pule" would be extremely crude in comparison < 1283982892 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I wonder what sort of maximal tarpit you could make < 1283982893 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1283982913 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get as many instructions as possible in a language while making sure removing any single one would make it non-TC < 1283982961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google does correctly translate en:"fuck you" to the probably closest-in-sense Finnish all-purpose swearword, even though it has a different literal meaning (female genitalia, basically). < 1283983172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm "Jäkel" would appear to be a german surname < 1283983172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Jäkel and Mr Hyde? < 1283983172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1283983172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah run and hyde, you < 1283983172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1283983172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to live on "Jääkärinkatu" (Jäger street). < 1283983172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is also a German surname.) < 1283983172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is Jäger related to jägare? That is en:hunter < 1283983172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hm i imagine a language in which the command to increment a value depends on the value and you need to use all of them to avoid all cells ending up with the value you left out the increment for < 1283983172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm where have I heard "jäger" spelled like that. Somewhere the last few months. And no I don't speak German... < 1283983172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's German for hunter, but among English speakers the military meaning might be more well-known. < 1283983172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err what? < 1283983475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: for your maximal tarpit < 1283983475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1283983475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I don't see what you mean with "to avoid all cells ending up with the value you left out the increment for" < 1283983475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or why you would need all to do that < 1283983475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or possibly the drink that starts with the word.) < 1283983475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you left out the command to increment a 42, and there was no way to get back down without it - i'm assuming the largest value wraps here, and no decrement command < 1283983475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then every cell that got incremented enough would end up stuck as 42 < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm. Doesn't sound terribly interesting < 1283983476 0 :Fuzz3r!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also I suspect you could just keep moving along the tape forever < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to copy your data to a few range, at a lower value < 1283983476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a subtlety i see is how do you avoid just ignoring those cells and moving along the tape (assuming it's bf inspired in other respects) < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hah beat you to it! < 1283983476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway, it doesn't need to be bf based < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be lambda calculus based < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but your suggestion is a good start < 1283983476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, the Pope is parading in Edinburgh. < 1283983476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether to Do Something < 1283983476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's a Thursday. < 1283983476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't be bothered < 1283983476 0 :hiato_!~nine@41-133-148-136.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1283983476 0 :Jonty_!~jadh@cpc2-sgyl11-0-0-cust453.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283983476 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why does Thursday matter here? < 1283983480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I have to do other things and I'm not going to use free time protesting < 1283983490 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah < 1283983523 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-73-170-94.dsl.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283983523 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283983523 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1283983523 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1283983529 0 :Jonty!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283983567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But is he going to be wearing the pope hat? < 1283983601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about the popemobile < 1283983602 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume so. < 1283983607 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of pope hats: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/phx/1258405496.html (a very old thing, but still) < 1283983612 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could always try to steal one. < 1283983625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have pope hats in every closet, pope hats under the sing, pope hats full of other pope hats." < 1283983635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect that was supposed to be "sink".) < 1283983822 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wtf XD < 1283983868 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I shall have the Pope's REAL hat! < 1283983959 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, grapnel? < 1283983982 0 :Dionisia!~michellem@201.53.5.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283983990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a big target, easy to hit. < 1283984046 0 :madbrain!~madbrain@poste246-169.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1283984048 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1283984059 0 :Dionisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1283984061 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would a 12 bit computer be intersting :D < 1283984064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahoy < 1283984113 0 :Dionisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a channel about drawing? < 1283984141 0 :Dionisia!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :dionisia < 1283984146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/pdp-5.html < 1283984169 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dionisia: definitely not < 1283984185 0 :dionisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhhhh ok, thank youu :) < 1283984195 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: except that's a poring computer for banks and governments < 1283984198 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1283984219 0 :dionisia!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283984342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poring over money < 1283984428 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why he thought that < 1283984460 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, pretty much any number of bits can be interesting < 1283984475 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore the post before last, BtW. < 1283984530 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drawing, huh < 1283984561 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, I get it now < 1283984569 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why I said that. < 1283985052 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phantom: yeah... but what about on a game console-like system? < 1283985143 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "interesting", then? < 1283985158 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ever seen demoscene demos? < 1283985221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes.. < 1283985284 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that's not underpowered so that you can do realtime gfx < 1283985293 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 12-bit doesn't seem to have any particular advantages.; < 1283985297 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1283985344 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitness doeesn't really do very much. < 1283985388 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 6-bit or 12-bit color modes could be interesting < 1283985398 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 12-bit sound < 1283985422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1283985445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I avoid display and sound things. < 1283985451 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, I seem to remember some PIC (SoC thingy) that has a 12-bit memory for program < 1283985455 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're the best things :/ < 1283985464 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it being a Harvard architecture < 1283985477 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had 8-bit words for data iirc < 1283985482 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1283985491 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: ah... cool but if I do harvard I'll need some data mem->cpu mem transfer instruction < 1283985495 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor-L < 1283985512 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1283985516 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure separate data and instruction buses are cool < 1283985548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, note a PIC12F629 (I think it was that one I coded for, and it had 12 or 14 bits for the program memory) has is an 8 leg DIP thingy. 1024 words flash for program < 1283985550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C64 graphics chip, VIC-II, is 12-bit (but not a CPU, of course) in a data-bus-width sense; the low bits are to the cpu/memory bus, and the four high ones are to the vic-only color RAM. < 1283985581 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc 64 bytes SRAM + 128 bytes data EEPROM < 1283985586 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1283985589 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very limited anyway < 1283985603 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm really more like thinking about a dram based system < 1283985608 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, PIC12* are accumulator machines iirc < 1283985619 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, making them painful to program for < 1283985634 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally 1 bus shared by cpu and gfx and sfx < 1283985647 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and good for making screwy c64 style effects < 1283985655 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1283985661 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, boring. < 1283985673 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're boring < 1283985676 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, and I too avoid sound and display < 1283985707 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, the most interesting thing in programming for that PIC12F629 was writing the interrupt handler for the serial port communication < 1283985756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least 12 divides equally by 3, which might be nice for packed-pixel RGB444 pushing, but that sounds a bit memory-intensive. < 1283985776 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, RGB444 ? < 1283985793 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x4 bits, presumably. < 1283985803 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1283985812 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :serial ports are boring < 1283985822 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 bits per channel at least. Or even better: 32-bit floating point per channeö < 1283985824 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :channel* < 1283985844 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :444 is a good tradeoff yes < 1283985861 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's presumably something you'd do on a 24bit computer with 12 bit words < 1283985880 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, how many different colours can you get hm... 64? < 1283985881 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1283985885 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too limited to be interesting < 1283985896 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12bits gives you 4096 < 1283985912 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie you can do photos and shit < 1283985923 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, well 4*4*4 is 64 < 1283985928 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6bit is 64 colors, ie probably paletted and amiga < 1283985938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 bits, not 4 colors. < 1283985943 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: that's 6 bits < 1283985944 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1283985949 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doh < 1283985962 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 4096 < 1283985968 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still extremely limited < 1283985979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall a 4k color screen in some handheld. < 1283985983 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :photos certainly won't look very nice < 1283985998 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially any gradients in them < 1283986002 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: just dither them < 1283986021 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, dithering looks horrible on all but extremely high-DPI monitors < 1283986038 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, well I guess it looks okay on CRTs, but only because they are naturally blurry < 1283986048 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used a CRT today. UGH I hate that < 1283986060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You and your "horribles"; earlier we had 16-color palettes and that was plenty. < 1283986061 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flickering, blurry crap < 1283986073 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what CRTs are < 1283986084 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, 256 colors is plenty from a 2d game pov < 1283986087 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even at a refresh rate of 75 Hz < 1283986102 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course it didn't have any auto adjust button < 1283986122 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to move the image about with the buttons when I changed to 75 Hz < 1283986128 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for refresh < 1283986182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gave me a headache that monitor < 1283986198 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, full-"byte" pixels (whether 8 or 12 bits; I guess for a 12-bit arch you'd make the memory bus wider) in something that has a framebuffer in a slow-ish main memory shared by graphics and CPU doesn't sound like it'd necessarily work. < 1283986219 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, compare ega (16 colors with a fixed bad palette) with vga (256 color with variable palette) < 1283986233 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vga just looks incredibly better < 1283986244 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283986251 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cga is fixed pal, ega is (mildly) variable pal < 1283986270 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that cable? Or something else? < 1283986272 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but I've almost never seen games using ega's variable colors < 1283986282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowdays VGA, SVGA and so on seem pretty meaningless < 1283986302 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm referring to specific pc hardware < 1283986321 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, right. today most people think "the blue cable" when you say VGA < 1283986329 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck I do too < 1283986332 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first < 1283986333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGA monitor connector is a 4-bit digital RGBI thing, I don't see how you get anything else than the 16 specified colors out of it. (Or did it actually have a six-bit digital thing?) < 1283986343 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I? < 1283986349 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intensity. < 1283986352 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think that's cga < 1283986352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1283986366 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait.... < 1283986370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, EGA definitely is a digital thing. < 1283986374 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cga is fixed pal, ega is (mildly) variable pal <-- so... interlacing? < 1283986378 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since PAL uses interlacing < 1283986379 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1283986389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Palette". < 1283986391 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dunno how ega connected, probably 6bit digital yeah, also it had incredibly weird timing (22khz vertical retrace???????) < 1283986393 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1283986406 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, i don't think they interlace or something < 1283986427 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CGA apparently had digital: r,g,b,i < 1283986428 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, why is 22 khz so bad? < 1283986429 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's short for palette, not the tv standard < 1283986430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"EGA produces a display of 16 simultaneous colors from a palette of 64 --" < 1283986442 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: It's just weird < 1283986447 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, why? < 1283986453 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: also good luck getting anything to sync to it < 1283986465 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, besides... khz? which direction is it drawing in? < 1283986468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, a palette of 64 does sound like the six-bit digital one, where there's RGB, and then another set of "brighter" RGB ones. < 1283986498 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: well, ega has different horiz refresh in 200 line 70hz, and 350 line 70hz modes < 1283986517 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, 70 hz doesn't seem too bad < 1283986531 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, even though you need 75 hz for reasonably low flickering < 1283986538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you can hook up 4-bit RGBI (like the C128 VDC) into a EGA monitor by wiring all three "intensity" pins to the I. < 1283986549 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90 hz or above is to be preferred to make a CRT even remotely usable for more than a short duration < 1283986574 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah you'll probably never get a pic out of a computer with an EGA or CGA unless you specifically have an EGA or CGA monitor < 1283986584 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since anything you'll find is VGA < 1283986589 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, couldn't you build a capture device? < 1283986591 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which converts it < 1283986606 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: dunno if that exists for CGA or EGA < 1283986613 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, home built? < 1283986623 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: yeah, that could do it < 1283986635 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also did you say ega was digital? Unlike vga? < 1283986638 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think 72Hz is the mark, maybe 70Hz < 1283986641 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: still a lot more easy to use a computer with a VGA < 1283986642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you can hook up 4-bit RGBI (like the C128 VDC) into a EGA monitor by wiring all three "intensity" pins to the I. < 1283986651 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, duplicatey. < 1283986651 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, I prefer a DPI < 1283986652 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1283986656 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since VGA is well supported < 1283986659 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo < 1283986667 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DP < 1283986671 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think I've seen some schematics. They were pretty hacky." is what I was supposed to say. < 1283986671 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(displayport) < 1283986673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that < 1283986675 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or DVI < 1283986685 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For an EGA-VGA box, that is. < 1283986702 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1283986745 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: use analog DVI < 1283986755 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, why on earth? < 1283986768 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, absolutely no one uses analog for anything new < 1283986769 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret: analog DVI is actually just VGA remapped to a different connector :D < 1283986780 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what monitor interface did the old lisp machines use? < 1283986796 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: they switched to analog for VGA! < 1283986803 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, how silly < 1283986805 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1283986806 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what monitor interface did the old lisp machines use? < 1283986812 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CGA and EGA had digital cables, VGA had analog < 1283986819 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[irony!] < 1283986828 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and VGA was standard for like over 10 years < 1283986848 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, again: what monitor interface did the old lisp machines use? < 1283986867 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody has hardware that will interface old lisp machines < 1283986877 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but vga is still really common < 1283986879 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, unless you have a monitor still left < 1283986894 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LCDs using VGA or analog DVI < 1283986896 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, but presumably you could construct a conversion box < 1283986899 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I ask < 1283986904 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what monitor interface they used < 1283986917 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"they"? < 1283986925 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, lisp machines... < 1283986932 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why knows, who cares < 1283986932 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolics ones < 1283986945 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, well it is much more interesting than IBM PC history < 1283986954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thus I care. < 1283986959 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know I'm not alone in that < 1283986961 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like you'll actually output something neat to look at out of a lisp machine < 1283986971 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1283986981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Sun box I have in the basement has Sun's own extremely silly 13W3 connector; it's shaped like the usual n-pin D connector, but inside there's three tiny coaxial-type connectors in addition to 13 regular pins. < 1283986984 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, you are trolling now < 1283986988 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1283986994 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to write that x86-64 Lisp OS < 1283987014 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is that the one that's actually exactly like VGA but with sync on green? :D < 1283987050 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, of course you can output neat stuff with it < 1283987055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: No, it's like VGA but there's a combined H/V sync. (Instead of VGA's separate.) < 1283987060 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as lisp code. Or drawing stuff on screen < 1283987076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: SGI's boxes, I think, mostly did sync-on-green. < 1283987087 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1283987102 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth you only care about graphics demos I can't fathom < 1283987120 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% typos < 1283987124 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm a composer < 1283987133 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-203-50.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283987136 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a 13W3/(4xBNC) cable that worked in a CRT with the usual 5xBNC inputs; according to the monitor manuals it would've done sync-on-green too. < 1283987138 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like computer music < 1283987140 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, so is Gregor? And? < 1283987154 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers that don't output music bore me < 1283987159 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, there is more to computing than graphics demos. Especially in this channels < 1283987164 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel* < 1283987172 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pianos that don't output music bore me. Computers that don't output music are useful for computational tasks. < 1283987194 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, http://codu.org/tmp/existentialism.png < 1283987197 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: yes < 1283987219 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: but I have to admit that sound and gfx are my personal favorite topics < 1283987245 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, XD < 1283987257 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, pokemon joke right? < 1283987272 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Via someone else, but yes :P < 1283987281 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, heh < 1283987284 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1283987308 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283987313 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it is Super Effective of course < 1283987371 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what exactly _is_ existentialism? < 1283987371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cropped from http://a.imageshack.us/img843/9525/confusion.png < 1283987378 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never remember < 1283987404 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1283987411 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, "huh" < 1283987433 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: i think you should have a relatively powerful co-processor to do the gfx and/or sound < 1283987455 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: just pour more resources into the CPU < 1283987457 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works too < 1283987472 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as cool... you don't get to worry about bus contention that way! < 1283987481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes all Hi-Z < 1283987485 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, touche < 1283987515 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1283987526 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc there exists dual-access-port-thingy RAM? < 1283987539 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if that allows concurrent access < 1283987592 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway I programmed on a thing recently where the CPU (a SoC) had a 1 bit serial databus to the LCD controller < 1283987596 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: more cpu probably translates into at least having CPU cache < 1283987596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get dual-access memory; some boards based on that TI DSP I keep talking about have some. Then you can do two reads/clock. < 1283987605 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpu cache is complicated < 1283987611 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, and fun! < 1283987626 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus that sort of architecture makes everything look like 1996 pc demos :D < 1283987646 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, couldn't you do different devices doing the different reads/writes? < 1283987654 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the same time < 1283987658 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe not writes < 1283987660 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be tricky < 1283987680 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, need to add an advanced GPU then < 1283987689 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, then you get an interesting 3D demo < 1283987704 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's called a playstation 1 < 1283987707 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1283987717 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there needs to be an FPGA demo scene < 1283987729 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself < 1283987730 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that would be cool < 1283987733 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a great platform and they did tons of stuff on the psx but it's also kinda complicated < 1283987742 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: yeah it would be cool < 1283987749 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, I was thinking along the lines of PS3 rather < 1283987749 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1283987773 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: too bad there's not enough overlap between the demoscene and hardware people < 1283987796 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, hardware people probably find it more interesting to do other stuff than demoscene < 1283987804 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I completely understand them < 1283987808 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is the reason < 1283987845 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, one guy I know in this audio dsp channel complained that the hw guy projects were usually nothing except interfacing mp3 player chips < 1283987846 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, ASIC demoscene would be even better < 1283987853 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad it would cost a fortune < 1283987871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last year's altparty had a Cray competition -- Cray bought one of their tiny "desktop supercomputers" there -- but the participation was pretty low, and the results not so fancy. And anyway, the box was mostly unremarkable; it was just a cluster of 8 multicore Linix nodes, with a faster-than-usual network in-between. < 1283987876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPU cache and dual-port RAM sound waaay too sophisticated for an 8(12?)-bit-esque gaming machine < 1283987898 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/bought/brought/ < 1283987903 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha dual-port ram? < 1283987904 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dud < 1283987904 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1283987906 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes we moved onto a more interesting topic < 1283987913 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) no cache. cache is too complicated < 1283987921 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, read the scrollback < 1283987922 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) using DRAM. < 1283987927 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, awesome idea though < 1283987932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: the computer I built couldn't play music. It only had 8 LEDs with which to impress the world of its powers. In my defense, though, the next output device I was going to build was going to be a sound-output-thingy < 1283987940 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dram = cannot do multiple operations on same cycle < 1283987943 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i gave the computer away to a friend... < 1283987953 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm :/ < 1283987969 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SRAM >>>>> DRAM < 1283987978 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm more like working on a project where I'll do an emulator but it has to be implementable IRL < 1283987980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I suspect madbrain is still on the topic of their project < 1283987983 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sram is a gadget < 1283987988 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1283987995 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, use drum memory then < 1283988001 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There was one demo with a nice-ish fluid-simulation flowy thing; that's sort of a natural match to the environment. < 1283988001 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get back to cool < 1283988012 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1283988022 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naah I want to do the job of the guy who designed the atari jaguar < 1283988037 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or amiga < 1283988042 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1283988046 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words < 1283988055 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or most 80s/90s computer or console systems really < 1283988064 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're ALL designed around DRAM access cycles < 1283988077 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer more exotic systems < 1283988100 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :custom amiga coppers back when routing was done *by humans*... sweet < 1283988125 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I could design a nice system around 4mb of 32bit or 64bit fast page DRAM < 1283988132 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, err, I'm pretty sure routing been done my machines longer than amiga existed < 1283988133 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably 3d even < 1283988137 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: well, around DRAM access cycles and/or some convenient multiple of the video signal :) < 1283988145 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I read about machines doing wire routing < 1283988151 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for wire-wrapping < 1283988158 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the custom amiga chips were routed by humans. < 1283988162 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, okay < 1283988177 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cressey: yeah, what they did is round dram access time to nearest multiple of the NTSC color carrier :D < 1283988182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but mechanical wire-wrapping-and-routing tools existed for longer < 1283988194 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why the same clock rates appear in the NES, SNES and amiga < 1283988199 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a whole story about how HAM mode was on the chopping block, but if they took it out, there'd just be a big hole in the middle of the chip where it was anyway! < 1283988227 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, HAM? < 1283988230 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm not sure what this has to do with wire-wrapping... I'm talking about the chip itself < 1283988235 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, bye < 1283988244 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye madbrain < 1283988245 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh on the IC level? < 1283988300 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, still what is HAM mode? < 1283988313 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: google "ham mode" < 1283988314 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I refer you to wikipedia page about the amiga computer < 1283988339 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, will do later then. I'd hate to do it in w3m < 1283988346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have X running atm < 1283988386 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAM's very uniqueness makes it awesome; I'm not very sure I'd like to be writing code for it though. < 1283988499 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1283988635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a short summary: it's a mode where the the pixels either select a color from a palette (as usual), but alternatively they can also mean "set only R (or G/B) value and keep the others from the previous pixel", so that you get sort-of n-bit color in something like n/2 bits per pixel. At the expense of making abrupt color-changes a bit messy. < 1283988672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAM being short for "hold-and-modify". < 1283988952 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1283988953 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1283989253 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Note that I tend to be rather anti-Pop-Mathematics, and anti-Pop-Science, and anti-Pop-* in general." <<< pop = bullshit < 1283989326 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" "fuck" is a perfectly valid swearword in colloquial norwegian, me thinks" <<< i tend to use it a lot, was a bit more embarrassing when i went to scotland < 1283989378 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1283989388 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone played such thing as Colobot? :D < 1283989507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" anyone played such thing as Colobot? :D" <<< no < 1283989568 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colonbot? < 1283989647 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colon is where your ass comes from right < 1283989689 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bots are automatical humans < 1283989971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION read that as bots are automatically humans < 1283990082 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote colon is where your ass comes from right < 1283990099 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :219| colon is where your ass comes from right < 1283990150 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283990191 0 :cheater00!~cheater@p549736D2.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric