00:02:04 Hah, @-arguments to the rescue 00:03:02 fizzie: A higher framerate means less time to compute enemy AI between frames! 00:09:12 -!- madbrain2 has quit. 00:14:24 Gak! What they don't tell you is that lines in an @-included file are limited to 254 characters! 00:14:31 Oh, the GOOD OLD DAYS, huh? 00:15:12 hi. 00:15:45 When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? ;; never 00:16:24 - NTSC output <-- UGH why? 00:16:25 madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL 00:16:25 * pikhq declares that everyone sucks 00:16:40 you know, Vorpal, you're an idiot. 00:16:58 let's count the countries that use PAL 00:17:22 43, if I eyeballed it right 00:17:27 now let's count those that use NTSC 00:18:14 About the same, I'd guess. 00:18:19 more, actually 00:18:21 quite a bit more 00:18:23 alise_: JAPAN and CANADA, the COOL COUNTRIES. 00:18:35 at least 49 00:18:38 definitely more 00:18:42 just ambiguous how to count territories 00:18:45 Oh, fucking island countries near the US. 00:19:01 Vorpal: my point is: you're not defending against the Americanisation of all entities 00:19:10 you're just rabidly preferring anything that seems European to you, to anything American. 00:19:24 and don't whip out a technical argument, because it's blatantly obvious that wasn't the basis of your dispute. 00:19:48 And it's not even like one is strictly superior to the other. 00:19:55 indeed 00:19:59 There's upsides and downsides to both. 00:20:10 And they both suck compared to digital broadcasting standards. 00:20:15 NTSC is smoother with movement but less defined, PAL is less smooth with movement but better defined 00:20:26 PAL is probably best FOR LIVE-ACTION ENTERTAINMENT 00:20:44 as it has the same fps as movies, which creates a desirable motion blur effect, (and allows easier broadcast of movies) 00:20:46 and has higher definition 00:20:47 BUT 00:20:48 for games 00:20:50 NTSC seems preferable to me 00:20:54 alise_: No, it has 25 fps. Film has 24 fps. 00:20:56 because fast movement should be reproduced accurately 00:20:58 pikhq: oh, touche 00:20:59 well, whatever 00:21:02 it's the same vicinity 00:21:05 So, PAL has the film sped up. 00:21:06 so the same sort of motion blur 00:21:23 pikhq: or have horrible jerkiness 00:21:25 by replicating frames 00:21:38 the unnoticeable speed-up is better ofc :) 00:22:04 uorygl isn';t here o.O 00:22:57 alise_: It's noticeable in the audio. 00:23:22 pikhq: even if you correct for pitch? 00:23:29 Yes, but much less so. 00:23:35 I vastly prefer 30 fps for display of film over 25fps. 00:23:46 2:3 pulldown is quite nice. 00:24:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:24:32 (Every even film frame is displayed for 1 TV frame, every odd is displayed for 1.5 TV frames) 00:24:54 jilm 00:25:04 (... Thus getting you 24 fps on a 30 fps display.) 00:25:39 Looks like all I have to do it stub out 12 POSIX-ish C functions that DICE don't got, and I'm in business with a only-slightly-crippled-you'd-never-know-it Lua interpreter. 00:26:02 *Also*, this is easily reversed by devices that can display 24 fps better than that. 00:27:08 pikhq: no, pulldown is UNACCEPTABLE 00:27:17 have you ever seen panning with pulldown? 00:27:22 or any fast movement? 00:27:25 it's the jerkiest, most retarded thing ever 00:27:26 but panning is the worst 00:27:33 forwards and AH and fowards and AH 00:27:33 IN MY WORLD, SINH OF EVERYTHING IS ZERO 00:27:40 alise_: Have you seen it on a 30fps display? 00:27:44 It's really not noticable. 00:27:47 cpressey: SOUNDS GOOD. 00:27:59 pikhq: To be honest, I have never seen a 30fps display in my life, as far as I am aware. 00:28:23 Well, maybe CRTs could do it. 00:29:27 Anyways, all this is somewhat irrelevant, since modern TV equipment can handle 24 fps. 00:29:50 Actually I might need to implement some of these... :/ memchr? 00:30:58 cpressey: PDCLib. 00:31:14 cpressey: http://pdclib.rootdirectory.de/ 00:31:25 cpressey: You write a header file and get a C99-compliant library. Well, in theory. 00:31:33 alise_: Much obliged. 00:31:34 It doesn't actually have yet. 00:31:42 cpressey: But you can rip out the parts you're missing, I'm sure. 00:31:51 Hrm. Well, 25 fps stuff still can't, because having refresh rates high enough to handle native 25 fps video and 24 fps video without modifying stuff is not yet feasible. 00:32:10 30 fps stuff, though? Yeah, just have a 120 Hz refresh rate & voila. 00:32:38 cpressey: Failing that, try newlib. 00:33:28 pikhq: I SEE NO REASON WE CAN'T HAVE 600 HZ TELEVISIONS 00:34:00 Of course, if you're willing to go for a CRT screen, it's all pretty easy. 00:34:22 Mmmm, multiple possible refresh rates. 00:34:39 I loved having a CRT because I put the resolution up to 1280x1024 or something on a really shitty 17" Compaq CRT. It was so, SO flickery and so, SO blurry, but it was MOAR RESOLUTION DAMMIT. 00:34:45 Reading UI text was a bit hard at first. 00:34:52 I was young and stupid... 00:34:57 ...now I'm just young. 00:34:58 Hah. 00:35:03 ... and stupid. 00:35:21 pikhq: I had to use PowerStrip (Windows monitor tweaking program) just to get that resolution. 00:35:31 Windows sanely ended its resolution list a few places below that on the grounds that I'm fucking crazy. 00:35:40 Hey, so, why don't more language implementations ship with regression test suites anyway? 00:36:42 "I was young and stupid, now I'm young and stupid and blind!" 00:39:13 Uh, I am actually blind. 00:40:08 alise_: You play Dot Action 2 remarkably well, then. 00:40:36 Braille display + playing by ear. 00:41:40 cpressey: NOTE: BLATANT LIES 00:41:57 (Astonishing!) 00:43:57 My phone falls two feet, and the battery cover is gone 00:43:58 WTF 00:44:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:44:37 *groan* 00:44:40 Yup, Palin's running for Pres. in 2012. 00:45:07 * Sgeo_ might switch party to Republican just to vote against her 00:45:25 Unless she's running against Huckabee 00:45:27 *sigh* Fecking primary system. 00:45:28 pikhq: Ha. 00:45:28 Bit of a hard choice, then 00:45:32 Sgeo_: *facepalm* 00:45:50 Write in Jesus; Diebold might think it's a good idea and we can all have some fun. 00:45:51 WHAAAAAT wait that's not surprising, only disappointing 00:45:58 SORRY, "PREMIER ELECTION SOLUTIONS" 00:46:06 NOT DIEBOLD REALLY NOT DIEBOLD PLEASE IGNORE THE DIEBOLD BEHIND THE CURTAIN. 00:46:33 pikhq, if you had to choose: Huckabee, or Palin? 00:46:44 Sgeo_: I shall only answer that in song. 00:47:10 *singing* Suicide is painless, it brings so many changes, and I can take or leave it as I please. 00:48:03 Maybe Palin... there's a chance she might quit halfway in her first term 00:51:13 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:53:42 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:57:22 If you have look at esolang wiki recently, you might wonder why I created those templates. Hopefully you figure it out. 01:10:38 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:10:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:14:53 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:18:13 idea: Democratic Topic Nazi Bot: If anyone attempt to change the topic of the channel, it changes it back immdiately. You can submit a topic change to the bot, but it only accepts it once a majority of users in the channel have approved it. 01:18:20 *attempts 01:19:08 cpressey: Better idea: optbot, which set the topic to "logurl | random unattributed line from the entire channel logs". 01:19:14 It also quoted one at you if you highlighted it. 01:19:18 I created it. 01:19:27 (This inspired fungot's rather more involved Markov babble.) 01:19:27 alise_: yes there's a lot more 01:19:34 cpressey: It set it every few hours or something. 01:19:39 A lot of fun. 01:19:41 I should revive it. 01:20:03 alise_: :P 01:20:16 zzo38: please don't spam templates like that 01:20:20 even if it's for a reason, Graue will get angry 01:20:43 and we all suffer :-P 01:23:02 Why will Graue get angry? 01:23:07 Can't they ask at first? 01:23:20 -!- ski has joined. 01:24:04 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:25:15 Someone else (Elliott) was trying to build the SKI calculus into MediaWiki, using also template namespace 01:25:52 Did you notice the Cn template links to xkcd? 01:29:40 zzo38: I used the user namespace, didn't I? 01:30:03 I was joking about the Graue thing anyway 01:30:07 alise_: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=10 01:30:20 I stand thoroughly corrected. Carry on! 01:30:38 The SKI calculus didn't work, btw. 01:30:41 It's specifically designed not to. 01:30:46 (The templating engine) 01:32:07 -!- augur has joined. 01:32:27 The templating engine is specifically designed not to be Turing complete? 01:34:59 That would make sense to me. Who wants non-terminating templates? 01:37:19 btw, fungot has displayed some freakishly relevant responses recently. 01:37:19 cpressey: yeah i don't think i'd do it on a computer though i can't read on a computer 01:40:32 cpressey: optbot demonstrated remarkable sentience and malevolence on occasion. 01:53:07 The name's Moniker. Sobriquet Y. Moniker. The "Y" stands for Yclept. 01:58:57 wat. 02:01:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:03:55 http://i.imgur.com/6NS0M.png 02:04:50 I mentioned this port in #lua and someone accused me of wasting time I could spend working on *their* project, or alternately, the cure for cancer 02:06:21 cpressey: what was their project? 02:06:27 alise_: They haven't said 02:06:30 who was it? 02:06:37 (I won't maul them. probably) 02:06:44 cpressey: also, put that thing in fucking doubling mode, not interlace argh my eyes 02:06:45 Yeah probably 02:06:56 Good idea 02:06:58 ... and change your window title font, now 02:07:42 WAH much better 02:07:55 Hm 02:08:38 Seriously why are you using that font. 02:08:55 "Purisa Medium" -- I wonder if I selected that? If so -- what was I thinking? 02:14:10 Also why are my FireFox fonts messed up? Happened after my system spontaneously reset this morning. Every page looks like the Roman character part of ShiftJIS pages 02:20:27 Take a look at your preferences. 02:20:31 The default fonts in particular. 02:20:34 Failing that, open a terminal, 02:20:38 $ sudo fc-cache -f -v 02:23:13 was changed to an ugly font called "serif" for some reason -- changed it to FreeSerif and it's not near as bad -- thx 02:27:58 SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun". 02:28:15 I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours" 02:28:40 Then to R6RS and then to not caring about Scheme. So it goes! 02:28:49 * cpressey pulls out a yo-yo 02:31:40 * cpressey is tempted to write a Pixley interpreter in C 02:32:06 Pixley? 02:32:31 http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/ 02:32:37 I design too many language 02:32:41 *languages. 02:33:06 cpressey: You do. 02:33:07 This is hardly a design, though. 02:33:15 Just a chipping away at something else. 02:33:47 oh, meh 02:34:34 pikhq: I should probably find something else to do with my time. Dot Action 2, or curing cancer, or just talking about random shit on IRC. 02:34:46 You could learn a language. 02:34:47 Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead? 02:34:49 (spoken) 02:35:07 pikhq: Hm. I could. I've never been very good at those. 02:35:33 Or (for amusement) you could learn Written Chinese without learning a spoken Sinitic language. 02:36:22 * coppro moves in tomorrow 02:37:28 SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun". ;; 02:37:30 er 02:37:31 I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours" 02:37:36 scheme in one defun still exists 02:37:43 48 hours is unrelated afaik 02:37:49 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp/siod.html 02:37:56 alise_: Oh? Interesting 02:38:25 Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead? ;; I have Third but have never listened to it and probably never will; I swear it was released slowed down 1000%. 02:38:42 I mean, yeah, I know trip hop does that shit, but seriously, guys? Seriously? 02:39:18 alise_: A younger me would have hated them. Tastes change I guess. Also: Sneaker Pimps. 02:40:29 "Please forgive the lack of full compliance with IEEE or R4RS standards. Perhaps one of these days." <> 02:41:26 SLIB is still coded for R4RS iirc 02:41:28 I forget. 02:41:39 Scheme 9 From Outer Space is R4RS, but that's Nils M. Holm. 02:41:41 He's ZANY. 02:41:46 Oh my 02:42:39 cpressey: You have to complete a multi-choice HTML text adventure just to get to the directory listing^W^Wsite. 02:44:20 I have created a help page indicating the purpose of the templates 02:44:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:45:51 fizzie: While I appreciate your finding that alcohol is a GABA-receptor-inhibitor, I can't help but think there is a lot more to it than just that. These things are fermented food, and as such, chemically quite complex. I've noticed, for example, if I mix drinks (wine and beer) I get WAY more drunk WAY more quickly. 02:46:04 And sicker much more easily. 02:46:14 ANyway. 02:46:54 "Highly recommended!" 02:47:00 In a sort of existential rain puddle at the moment. Summoning Paddington bear... 02:47:44 I have found out that if you mix wine, beer, cocaine, pebbles, cannabis, cyanide, paint thinner, paint thickener, paint, water, hydroxic acid, LSD, and heroin, you die. 02:48:00 Interesting, that. 02:48:06 I think it's the hydroxic acid. 02:48:25 Ooh! Paint thickener! 02:48:29 I have discovered that if you mix 1 kilogram of caffeine with 1 liter of water and drink, your tongue dies and then you die. 02:49:04 (caffeine is one of the most bitter substances. Your tongue shall hate you and then die.) 02:51:54 So I had this idea, right... it would have gone well with eso-std.org 02:52:32 pikhq: Um, you'd die. 02:52:37 pikhq: Caffeine is lethal in that kind of dosage. 02:52:44 We should publish our own frickin' journal. JETICSARF. Journal of Esoteric Topics in Computer Science And Related Fields. 02:52:46 alise_: Yes, you would in fact die. 02:52:48 As I said. 02:52:50 It's lethal in quite small doses, even. 02:52:55 pikhq: True :P 02:52:59 cpressey: http://t3x.org/s9fes/index.html 02:53:02 Can you get to the site???? 02:53:07 alise_: Small per mass, perhaps. 02:53:17 I have done it (by cheating; opening all the choices in tabs). 02:53:21 We woudln't need to actually write papers or peer review them. Just suggestive abstracts would be fine. 02:53:24 Fortunately, it's effective and readily available at much smaller doses. 02:53:37 (milligrams!) 02:53:52 alise_: I can and will 02:54:21 alise_: ARGH DOWNLOAD LINK ON SIOD SITE BORKEN 02:54:26 last updated 1996 02:54:46 cpressey: huh 02:55:43 "Related FIelds", of course, are any course of research that has been, or could be, undertaken on a computer. 02:57:31 "You are standing in front of a building. The door of the building seems to be locked. A look at the opening times reveals that they have closed just a few seconds earlier. " 02:58:49 this is insane 02:59:06 i mean, global warming is one thing 02:59:21 but there is no way i can swallow this many pianos 02:59:24 cpressey: what 02:59:30 alise_: WHEEE 02:59:33 I think cpressey just tried my drug cocktail. 02:59:46 clowns did 02:59:54 ... 03:00:03 cpressey: HI CPRESSEY 03:00:08 *incoherent* 03:00:22 I wonder if cpressey is faking it! 03:00:42 I think that site, when combined with Spanish wine, has the same effect as your cocktail 03:02:25 OK, so... 03:03:11 one thing at a time, right? 03:03:27 the journey to Antarctica begins with a single step 03:03:49 and ends with screaming at the unspeakable horrors contains within those mountains of madness 03:03:57 *contained 03:05:04 alise_: Read Dijkstra's papers ever? 03:05:49 http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD13xx/EWD1305.html 03:06:05 cpressey: Some, yes 03:06:07 *yes. 03:06:31 better handwritten though 03:08:41 although 03:09:12 The first language I ever learned was BASIC. So I'm not with him on the "no previous exposure to BASIC or FORTRAN" thing. 03:09:32 It is a disadvantage. But one can overcome it. 03:09:42 One can forget things. 03:10:11 pikhq: One can indeed. One can... shelve them, where they belong. 03:10:11 First language I was exposed to was VB5 03:10:16 And I still regret it every day 03:11:07 Oh, I was a big Visual Basic programmer once. VB3 was, in a certain way, awesome. VB4 was such crap and so quickly was replaced by VB5 that it made me loathe Microsoft. 03:12:25 And while most people can understand how Microsoft's empire is built on Windows, fewer can understand how it is *really* built on BASIC. 03:12:54 So many of those 8-bit micros had a BASIC that came from Microsoft. 03:13:18 The ZX81 didn't, as far as I know. ZX81 BASIC was so weird, though. 03:14:29 Anyway! 03:14:43 Trying to run SIOD on an Amiga 500 emulator, because I'm NUTS. 03:14:59 While listening to Portishead via Youtube. 03:16:30 Actually, SMETANA was first implemented in VB3. Along with a really neat toy called "Cyclobots" which I should really rewrite in Java someday. 03:17:40 Back when I had just moved into my own place, (well, with a roommate), and had a new, ugly PC with a /Hercules/ B&W graphics card. I think it was a 386. 03:17:42 cpressey: *Pirated* BASIC, no less. 03:17:44 No. 03:17:48 It was a 486DLX. 03:17:50 -!- lament has joined. 03:17:50 OH GOD. 03:18:25 * Sgeo_ plays lament2.mid 03:19:08 pikhq: I haven't researched it enough to know that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I've heard such stupid rumours repeated. Like how Gates sat down and wrote the BASIC ROM for (the Altair's CPU?) and it "worked the first time". WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT! 03:19:34 I thnk this was on A&E 03:19:51 Gee, television, who'd have thought *you'd* ever distort history. 03:19:56 btw, hi lament! 03:20:10 cpressey: Oh, I'm not saying that MS's Altair BASIC was pirated from some other author. 03:20:26 cpressey: I'm saying it was made popular due to being pirated a lot is all. 03:20:38 Much like other Microsoft software. 03:20:40 pikhq: Ah yes. 03:21:11 It's fairly well known and documented that Bill Gates actually wrote Altair BASIC. 03:21:22 I seem to recall that that was the last program he wrote much of, thoug. 03:22:05 hi 03:22:08 ! 03:22:33 pikhq: DONKEY.BAS 03:23:42 Warrigal is trying to get me to grasp complex calculus 03:24:08 wait, where? 03:24:19 pikhq: HE WROTE DONKEY.BAS DAMMIT 03:24:28 Well, co-wrote. 03:24:32 At 4am in the morning! 03:25:20 pikhq: Yes, that sounds right. He also co-authored a very trivial paper on a contrived model of computation (a computer where reversing a list is O(1), iirc). These things seem to be trotted out to make him look like a technical marvel. But, like Jeff Bezos, his real talent is in business. 03:26:07 a computer where reversing a list is O(1) 03:26:17 I only remember the one with the gorilla throwing bananas 03:26:22 that's really cool, no? 03:26:27 definitely esoteric material 03:26:51 lament: Academia manages to suck the fun out of these things 03:27:26 "The player drives a car and encounters a donkey in the road." 03:27:46 GORILLAS.BAS 03:27:49 there we go 03:28:17 cpressey: are you in grad school or something? 03:28:24 lament: HAHAHAHAHA 03:28:33 lament: No, like you, I have a job as a software developer 03:28:50 I'm not sure if grad school would be better or worse 03:29:06 Better in some respects, but completely insane in others 03:29:32 what i don't like about grad school is that it's a bunch of TOTAL DORKS 03:30:05 Total dorks that you have to explain yourself to 03:30:27 0 03:30:28 erm 03:32:01 GORILLAS.BAS is awesome 03:32:03 and crap 03:32:09 lament: On the *other* hand... what kind of development methodology are you enveloped in? I am daily exposed to the SHEER WONDER that is "AGILE". 03:32:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:32:57 wellllllllllll 03:33:29 Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that. 03:33:36 I just talked to my dad 03:33:39 i'm mostly exposed to the paradigm of "let's get it working with minimal effort and if necessary we'll patch it up later" 03:33:48 i guess it's the essence of agile 03:33:51 He said that I was at a computer since I was 4, and I had a choce between programming and games 03:33:54 And I chose games 03:33:55 :/ 03:34:00 \o/ 03:34:01 | 03:34:01 /`\ 03:34:05 but stripped of buzzwords it just feels like laziness and lack of work ethics 03:34:09 which is what it is :) 03:34:55 lament: That seems a lot better than being obsessed with sprints, estimation, what "points of effort" mean, "retros", "planning poker", etc etc 03:35:06 well yeah 03:35:16 our manager is a huge agile guy 03:35:24 thankfully he stays out of things 03:35:41 Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that. ;; haha 03:35:47 but he goes to conferences and stuff, and it's easy to see how terrible it is in other places 03:36:02 the worst i've seen was a deck of cards by the company i think Industrial Logic 03:36:15 cpressey: omg, he changed the site 03:36:22 it's a deck of cards with witty quotes and various agile concepts 03:36:23 cpressey: i think it is unwinnable now 03:36:30 truly a horror to behold 03:36:48 (S9FES) 03:36:48 oh, here they are http://www.industriallogic.com/games/eppc.html 03:36:52 *(S9fES) 03:37:03 "Question 4/3: As of 2008, which one was the last useful Scheme report? a: R3RS b: R4RS (arguably) c: R5RS (arguably) d: R6RS" 03:37:05 no wait 03:37:19 cpressey: ha, he's made it more opinionated 03:37:27 (arguably) 03:37:36 oh it closes when you do anything else 03:37:37 lol 03:38:17 lament: omg we only have "planning poker" cards that consist of a crippled fibonacci sequence 03:38:50 The professor is shocked by the sudden return to reality. He starts to scream. A few seconds later campus security arrives and kicks you out of the building 03:39:01 I could (sadly) convince a large number of people that we need these better cards 03:39:06 cpressey: this one? http://www.industriallogic.com/games/pp.html 03:40:12 cpressey: it seems that the driving force beyond all these approaches is the perceptions that programmers are like children and their environment should be like kindergarten 03:40:25 cpressey: this is also the impression i got from google 03:40:44 s/beyond/behind 03:40:49 s/perceptions/perception 03:40:52 lament: lament No, not as interesing as those. We could just be using regular card, taking away 4, 6, 7, 9, etc 03:41:05 oh 03:41:24 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:42:01 c: R5RS (arguably) 03:42:01 c: R5RS (arguably) 03:42:04 wut. 03:42:07 why does it list it twice 03:42:10 Someone here (fizzie? pikhq?) made a sage observation that many of these "agile" things seem to be derived indirectly from role-playing games. Instead of a "dungeon master" there is a "scrum master", and you play these games with cards and tokens... 03:42:31 gosh 03:42:46 pikhq, is Sarah Palin actually running? 03:42:57 Or was that a sick and twisted joke designed to scare everyone here? 03:43:05 lament: Pardon my inaccuracy in typing. I've been drinking :) 03:43:15 haha 03:46:25 lament: On the plus side, I get to write code in Python (and sometimes Ruby), which, while it isn't ideal, isn't so bad. 03:48:38 Sgeo_: Really. 03:48:52 pikhq, linky? 03:49:04 Not handy! 03:49:27 cpressey: I'm permuting all the answers to the quiz, hee. 03:49:36 Except for the first question, whose answer I know. 03:49:45 Abuh? 03:49:46 or not. 03:49:48 *Or not. 03:49:50 It hasn't let me in for any of them. 03:50:00 alise_: I would gather from this that he doesn't *want* people using S9FES. 03:50:03 cpressey: i found i'm a huge fan of C# 03:50:05 cpressey: He is... an odd charcater. 03:50:18 cpressey: All down wit' that Buddhism and shit. 03:50:27 Basically deleted his website recently. etc. 03:50:39 His computer is like 932479435 years old because he doesn't believe in buying things. 03:51:09 lament: I... have yet to really get into C#, but what little I did do with it, didn't make me puke. It's Microsoft's Java, as far as I'm concerned :) 03:51:23 lament, I'm using C#! 03:51:32 I was vaguely plannig on writing a PL-{GOTO} compiler which targeted .NET 03:51:44 Thus, PL-{GOTO}.NET 03:51:50 well it's definitely better than java 03:52:08 cpressey: Ooh, he's released a sci-fi novel! 03:52:09 http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t3x.org%2Fsf%2Findex.html 03:52:12 "Fish room" 03:52:16 one day to be Charles Beville his quiet job on board a small research spacecraft up from and is involved in an odyssey, the extent of his to gradually begins to understand first. 03:52:16 The expedition in which he participates, has the goal of technology to explore an alien to humanity could permanently change the culture. Soon begins Beville, the effects of foreign influence in his own body felt. 03:52:16 When the change occurs after all, but she looks completely different than the clients of the mission itself had imagined it. 03:52:18 it has nice things like type inference and lambdas 03:52:20 Sounds enthralling. 03:52:37 but, i suppose like java, and much unlike for example haskell, it also has great debugging 03:52:43 alise_: Is this still Scheme 9 ? 03:52:58 cpressey: Uhh, same guy. 03:53:10 lament: Yeah, Haskell's capacity for debugging is pretty meagre. 03:53:16 A mindset thing. 03:54:26 alise_: Same, weeeeird guy, 03:54:29 *. 03:55:12 I think maybe I am taking the quiz in the wrong place, or something. 03:55:21 Like, you have to enrol or something first. 03:55:31 Well. How exactly do you go about debugging something with completely non-obvious execution order? 03:56:01 pikhq: You don't. You PROVE that your program is CORRECT. Therefore, not debugging NECESSARY. 03:56:04 *no 03:56:22 alise_: Oh MAN. 03:56:22 cpressey: Nice theory, but Haskell's not really the language for that. 03:56:28 "You are in a corridor. There are lots of doors, but they do not look inviting. There are other corridors to the south/east and to the south/west. One of the doors here looks somehow important." 03:56:36 Insufficient dependent typing. 03:56:37 I did this before... 03:56:54 pikhq: It came to a crossroads. It... I'm not sure it chose the right path. 03:57:20 Or, as the case may be, corridor. 03:57:23 Yeah, no permutation works. 03:58:24 "You need a magnetic card to enter the room." 03:58:27 How do I get one... 03:59:07 There's no really good reason you couldn't make a great Haskell debugger (ok -- let's call it an "execution visualizer" to not upset the locals.) But, it just seems, no one has. 03:59:52 cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code 04:00:01 cpressey: It'd have to be a bit complex, though, due to the heavily non-linear execution. 04:00:20 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:00:41 A bit complex, but you could mitigate it. This is being evaluated, because you asked for this, because you asked for this... 04:00:49 Probably work based off the model of graph reduction, with highlighting of currently-being-evaluated expressions. 04:00:53 lament: Fundamentally? :) 04:01:00 But yeah, totally doable if you had the urge. 04:01:30 cpressey: yes. no steps. 04:01:31 Tho I agree, most days I'd rather have a pure functional *eager* language. 04:01:43 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:01:44 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:01:47 Strangely, Erlang is closest to fitting that bill 04:01:48 or you lack imagination 04:01:54 (or are just used to imperativeness) 04:01:57 ff 04:02:00 Actually, with that done, it'd become somewhat easy to add thread debugging. 04:02:01 cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code 04:02:01 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:02:04 is what i meant to quote 04:02:11 alise_: i just think debugging is more important than actually writing code 04:02:13 Highlight multiple expressions at once. 04:02:23 haskell makes writing code nice and pleasant, but debugging not so much 04:02:45 the reason debugging is more important is because it's twice as hard 04:03:10 cpressey: HOW DO I DO THE GAME ;_; 04:03:22 It's not more important to me personally, but it certainly is, industrially speaking 04:03:24 the S9fES game 04:03:35 alise_: FUCKED IFFEN *I* KNOW, MATE 04:03:46 lament: It's also harder to make bugs. 04:03:51 cpressey: IFFEN? 04:03:54 You really have been drinking. 04:04:01 *hic* 04:04:10 Which is... Probably how large Haskell programs manage to get written at all, really. 04:05:03 without bugs? :) 04:05:17 lament: No non-trivial program is without bugs. 04:05:18 :) 04:05:19 So... SIOD has a strange syntax for define... probably due to R4RS or something... (define (funcname arg1 arg2) ...) 04:05:34 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 04:05:39 I'm used to (define funcname (arg1 arg2) ...) 04:05:47 Good static typing just makes certain classes of bugs damned hard to pull off is all. 04:05:53 cpressey: ... 04:05:56 cpressey: That's Scheme's syntax. 04:06:01 (define foo (...)) is not Scheme at all. 04:06:06 alise_: Then I am used to something crap I guess! 04:06:08 It has always been (define (foo ...) ...) 04:06:16 cpressey: Common Lisp has (defun foo (...) ...). 04:06:19 But that's defun, not define. 04:06:24 I'm used to whatever DrScheme has been giving me. 04:06:26 How can you have defined a Scheme dialect and not know this? 04:06:29 Uhh, DrScheme does it this way too. 04:06:33 You're just drunk. :P 04:06:43 Oh I forgot! I hate (define ...) anyway. 04:06:53 XDDD 04:07:01 ur funay 04:07:11 at least define doesn't sound as discouraging as 'defun' 04:07:13 cpressey: What's wrong with DEFINE? 04:07:30 function definition takes all the fun out of common lisp 04:07:45 cpressey: OK, it definitely isn't the quiz. 04:07:51 alise_: Nothing except that it violates the whole lexical binding thing 04:07:59 It ... doesn't. 04:08:05 Well it does kinda! 04:08:12 does NOT! 04:08:17 :( 04:08:25 cpressey: How? 04:08:44 lament: yeah, use the y combinator instead 04:09:27 How to 'splain. Well. Uh. You say (define x y), and you've gone and mutated the set of bindings, right? 04:09:47 Not really. 04:09:57 In the head of a function, it actually just serves as a let around the entire thing. 04:10:01 (You can't define after the head of a function.) 04:10:18 because SCHEME IS A NAZI LANGUAGE 04:10:20 You can't? 04:10:23 You can't. 04:10:30 You have to use let or set!. 04:10:31 See now that's wrong IN A DIFFERENT WAY. 04:10:34 what a dumb restriction 04:10:37 No, it's right because it isn't mutation. 04:10:38 yeah it's wrong 04:10:43 :( 04:10:50 It's more like ... a header. 04:11:05 well why is it not mutation? 04:11:07 Well... as a toplevel-only thing I can accept it... but only sort of 04:11:28 to make things easier for the optimizing compiler? 04:11:36 we all know THERE IS NO OPTIMIZING COMPILER. 04:11:38 And... I'm pretty sure I've seen it used badly. Maybe in a nonconforming scheme, but whay did I use excpet DrScheme? 04:11:49 OH DrScheme comes with a wicked "Jewels" game 04:12:14 Which was implemented on the Commodoree 64 as "Zoo Mania" where you match up animale heads instead 04:12:21 lament: We are opposed to MUTANTS. We should abort all infants with the X gene! 04:12:24 cpressey: You know, DrScheme doesn't exist any more... 04:12:25 04:12:26 I played that constantly for a while 04:12:50 alise_: Yeah yeah. They REBRANDED. 04:12:53 pikhq: We should abort all infants with the X chromosome! 04:12:58 04:13:08 alise_: ⁵ 04:13:14 pikhq: wat 04:13:16 oh high five 04:13:16 xD 04:13:31 Also, post-term abortions! 04:13:38 Maddox approves. 04:13:49 lament: Heck yeah. Why SHOULD there be an optimizing compiler? ... Have you seen picoLisp? It's interesting. 04:14:03 maddox is irritating 04:14:09 Why compile at all? You're just going to want to REFLECT and stuff anyway! 04:14:14 cpressey: The great thing about Scheme is the lengths you go to to implement it. 04:14:29 * cpressey gets lost in a twisty little maze of passages, all alike. 04:14:44 alise_: Me personally, or the general "you"? 04:14:54 cpressey: General. 04:15:07 That control flow is FUN FUN FUN 04:15:12 That makes more sense than the ridiculous notions that were in *my* head. 04:15:29 Because I'm considering implementing Pixley in C. 04:15:39 Argh. Stupid to talk about such things. 04:15:59 Not smart to drink and IRC, either. 04:16:04 * cpressey falls asleep 04:16:22 * cpressey awakens with a shock 04:16:28 MUTANTS? WHERE? 04:16:52 *grooooaaaaan* 04:16:55 * lament points at alise_ 04:16:58 "Torchwood" is an anagram of "Dr. Who". 04:17:03 Yes. 04:17:04 Yes it is. 04:17:11 OH hah it IS 04:17:11 pikhq: *Doctor Who 04:17:15 alise_: XD 04:17:31 And that's canon inside the universe. 04:17:38 *double effing groan* 04:17:40 First person to figure that out will escape the Matrix that is the canon. 04:17:44 pikhq: No, not the anagram. 04:17:47 Just the name. 04:17:51 Oh, okay. 04:17:53 So ... yeah. 04:18:03 pikhq: It's not like Doctor Who has canon though. 04:18:04 Or plots. 04:18:09 Or actual characters. 04:18:13 Hey! 04:18:28 alise_: It has canon. Just highly mutable. 04:18:31 I have fond memories of real Dr. Who, like I have fond memories of the Amiga 500. 04:18:37 pikhq: Suuure. 04:18:53 cpressey: The old series was shit; the new series is... mildly entertaining shit. 04:18:56 And it has plots. Characters? Well. Each arbitrary grouping of seasons does. 04:19:06 OK, so, uh, most of the characters were not *actually* well developed, but -- hey! 04:19:16 pikhq: No, it has characterisations. 04:19:21 Characters have actual personalities. 04:19:23 alise_: I quite like what classic Who I've seen. Sure, it's cheesy, but it's enjoyable. 04:19:35 The plots... well... strings of bad guys is more accurate. 04:19:59 alise_: What people don't understand is that classic (Baker #1) Dr. Who is *not* sci-fi. It's horror. 04:20:09 But it's not horrific. 04:20:28 Whatever. I love the shit. 04:20:31 cpressey: I prefer to call all of Doctor Who fantasy. 04:20:51 Because, well. It ain't exactly sci-fi, now is it? 04:20:57 omg Patrick Stewart should be the next Doctor 04:21:06 yeees 04:21:09 pikhq: It's sci-fi-coloured, sometimes. 04:21:13 (I have a somewhat broad notion of "fantasy" and a strict notion of "sci-fi", though) 04:21:16 cpressey: Quite true. 04:21:19 Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the U.S.S. TARDISprise. 04:21:31 Bah! 04:21:31 alise_: Yes. Patrick Stewart makes things better just by being there. 04:21:47 Patrick Stewart as a renegade Time Lord -- fine. 04:21:54 Imagine how painful TNG season I would be if Patrick Stewart weren't there. 04:21:55 If anyone hasn't seen Patrick Stewart on Extras, WATCH RIGHT NOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg_cwI1Xj4M 04:22:23 Patrick Stewart, actually, thinking about it, would make a kick-ass renegade Time Lord. 04:22:26 (It has a joke at the expense of Star Trek, if you want an additional excuse.) 04:22:35 My comp's being a prick 04:22:42 Insofar as "kick-ass" is an appropriate adjective to use here, whcih it isn't. 04:22:50 lime turd? 04:24:24 Y'know what else I have fond memories of, from that Dr. Who-and-Amiga-500 time? 04:24:28 Dirty Pair. 04:24:34 The original. 04:25:33 Ah yes, the late 80's, and Canada, like the rest of North America, was just catching on to this new craze coming out of Japan -- a particular style of animation. 04:25:44 We actually called it "Japanimation" at the time. 04:26:23 There was an interest group for it in Manitoba, called M.A.N.G.A. Manitobans (something) New Generation Animation. 04:27:04 And there was this extremely schlocky, over-the-top, sci-fi-crime-drama(???) thing with these two chicks in "war bikinis". 04:27:27 Or was it the early 90's? Well, whatever. 04:28:32 It still befuddles me that we use the Japanese word for "animation" to refer to a Japanese style *of* animation. 04:28:54 Well, rather, a *set* of Japanese styles of animation. 04:29:01 It's not even a single style. 04:29:19 * cpressey is superdeformed 04:30:08 teme tihì ni na'ta! 04:31:45 * Sgeo_ lols at alise's video 04:33:19 alise_: Damn! You're right about (define (foo x) (* x x)) -- I must have been hallucinating the (define foo (x) (* x x)) syntax... 04:33:36 Oh Kay 04:34:04 I am never wrong. 04:35:26 So anyway, Pixley, under SIOD, under Amiga 500? It is borderline possible. 04:36:23 alise_, you thought I was drunk yesterday. 04:36:32 You were. 04:36:34 Or faking it. 04:37:30 * I am never wrong in a way I cannot argue my way out of. 04:37:47 Sgeo was descriptively drunk yesterday, if not prescriptively so. 04:38:01 oerjan: NO I'M NOT 04:38:02 * oerjan whistles innocently 04:38:38 <3 all <3-able things 04:38:48 (now THAT is drunk) 04:39:18 Nazis are, in theory, <3 able, if not sanely so 04:40:02 goodnight 04:40:07 -!- alise_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:43:17 -!- alise has joined. 04:43:18 cpressey: 04:43:19 "There is a horizontal division in this playfield, splitting it into regions called le ciel, on top, and la terre, below." 04:43:23 horizontal yet on top/below? 04:43:25 perhaps a bug. 04:43:27 re-bye 04:43:29 Goodnight. 04:43:33 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:43:44 alise: good 04:43:47 niht 04:43:53 cpressey, alise left 04:44:02 yup 04:44:30 "horizontal division" meaning, there is a horizontal line dividing up-part from down-part 04:45:49 ok anyway there are these two worlds, computation, and cybernetics. 04:46:06 no -- this is not to do with digigm 04:46:12 ok never mind 04:46:26 * cpressey seeks water 04:57:51 YOU HAVE NO IDEA (actually you do) 04:58:27 I AM THE PLATONIC ABSENSE OF IDEA 04:58:30 YOU HAVE NO IKEA (unless you do. CHRIS is a kind of corkboard, iirc) 04:58:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:58:57 oerjan: You and I, we're the old farts here, aren't we? 04:59:25 I should probably learn to appreciate the solace that is The Pun. 05:00:10 i thought you were only in your twenties... 05:00:14 ! 05:00:15 oh wait 05:00:19 you're certainly farts 05:00:35 I'm.... closer to my forties than I want to think about right now, thanks/. 05:00:38 hard to do if you invented befunge in 1993 05:01:07 A bit, yeah. 05:01:08 not _impossible_, but... 05:02:07 well i can at least take comfort in the fact i cannot get _closer_ to forty... 05:02:35 assuming that is a bad thing, you know. 05:04:11 Nothing wrong with maturity. Not that I have any... 05:05:43 no maturity here 05:06:58 Maturity? This is IRC. 05:13:35 I have never written a Mandelbrot generator. 05:14:02 I wonder if I will EVER write a Mandelbrot generator. Or if I will DIE first. 05:14:42 But Chris! Really, aren't there already ENOUGH Mandelbrot generators on this planet? Well, yes, probably. 05:15:26 i guess i _am_ an old fart, i distinctly recall i wrote a mandelbrot generator in the 80's 05:16:28 I distinctly recall only barely being able to be called "existing" in the 80s. 05:18:28 In the 80's, such things would have been fairly cutting-edge. I only remember fractals taking a share of the public imagination in the mid-90's 05:18:42 Popcorn Julia 05:19:36 cpressey: Except for people who programmed home computers. 05:20:05 I'm pretty sure that fractal generators became a fairly common thing to write about when you had enough graphics capabilities to render one. 05:20:30 pikhq: And/or had subscriptions to Amiga Factor magazine. 05:20:36 Actually, I am making that up. 05:20:41 XD 05:20:47 I have no idea what the name of the magazine actually was. 05:26:50 So there are these two worlds, computation and cybernetics, but actually they are kind of duals of each other. Well, forgive me for being drunk, but it's not like I'd make more sense with this when I'm sober, I'm just more inclined to write it, now... 05:28:09 Computation: we want computers to be extensions of our own minds, to augment the *joy* that comes from thinking and reasoning. Cybernetics: we want computers to *replace* our own minds, to automate stuff we don't care about, to reduce the *drudgery* of thinking and reasoning. 05:28:28 s/thinking/drinking 05:28:45 Ohhh Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant 05:29:13 cpressey: do you play Go? 05:29:57 lament: hM. Actually, no. I know there are several variations, and that it is a very intellectually hard game 05:30:14 Used to play chess. Don't anymore. Kind of boring. 05:30:48 ok 05:31:05 lament: Is go something you play? 05:31:08 i really like go but kinda hate playing it 05:31:09 yeah 05:31:39 it's a very pretty game, the problem is that it's still a competitive activity 05:34:10 Yeah. Competition -- gee, speaking of maturity... I prefer more indirect forms of competition too. 05:34:36 I remember a "Go-Moku" game on the Apple II. It was nigh impossible to beat. 05:35:11 Also... implementing a much simpler variation of it, as a class project, for a data structures course, the 1st time I went to university (in the early 90's.) 05:35:24 Don't remember what that variation was called, though. 05:35:39 probably go-moku 05:35:44 it doesn't get any simpler 05:35:56 the one with complicated rules is called renju 05:36:03 Hm 05:36:47 -!- augur has joined. 05:37:14 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:37:52 I'm pretty sure it had a weird name that I don't recall :/ 05:38:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 05:38:38 ALso, I had a friend in high school, who went on to become an academic who was part of a team who proved some properties about Go and similar games (at U Alberta). 05:38:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:39:15 cool 05:39:17 -!- augur has joined. 05:39:28 academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :) 05:40:12 *echm* 05:40:14 MOX 05:41:00 lament: yup. Something about enumerating all possible games of Checkers, ISTR 05:42:33 cpressey: where do you live? 05:43:26 coppro: Chicago 05:43:29 currently 05:43:33 Used to be in Canada. 05:43:48 ah, neat 05:44:05 cpressey: I take it you love US immigration now. :P 05:45:09 where in Canada? 05:45:12 pikhq: Love? Eh well um... 05:45:23 Sarcasm. 05:45:48 coppro: Originally Winnipeg, Manitoba. Then Vancouver BC for a while. And for a very brief period, Windsor, Ontario! 05:46:19 cool 05:50:07 Winnipeg used to be a really nice city. I miss it sometimes. It's gone a bit downhill, though. (everyone with any potential, left :/ ) 05:51:32 lol 05:51:48 * coppro is just now moving to Waterloo 05:52:14 Ha, I remembered someone here is going to U Waterloo, but I thought it was pikhq 05:52:45 Not I. 05:53:02 and lament is presumably still in Canada, based on the shawcable address 05:53:11 what do you mean still 05:53:32 ok, maybe not still. now. 05:53:53 at one point, you was, at this point, you is. who knows about in-between? 05:58:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:58:03 ommm 06:06:34 -!- kareem has joined. 06:06:42 hi 06:09:31 -!- kareem has left (?). 06:10:06 bye 06:11:01 kareem was here earlier, I thought we scared him off with all the talk of HUMAN SACRIFICE 06:11:11 of course, could be a different kareem 06:33:41 -!- augur has joined. 06:40:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:45:38 hahaha stage 24 07:13:19 -!- cheater00 has joined. 07:14:29 ...My Active Worlds citnum is going to be in the Factor docs 07:15:16 Or maybe not 07:16:29 [ 1 1 + . continue 1 1 + . ] callcc0 07:16:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:21:34 [ dup continue-with ] callcc1 07:21:42 Results in a continuation all by itself 07:29:06 (call/cc (lambda (k) (k k))) 07:29:45 Indeed 07:35:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:36:54 Yep, my citnum's there 07:38:13 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:38:24 I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition! 07:40:12 Nnnnnnobody does. 07:42:20 http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9 07:43:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:45:56 Sgeo_: What is that? 07:46:16 Some documentation for pattern matching in Factor 07:46:25 It was previously incorrect, now it's correct 07:46:38 And as an example value, they used _my_ citnum in Active Worlds 07:49:18 What is a citnum in Active Worlds? 07:49:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:49:39 -!- augur has joined. 07:50:16 zzo38, on registration, users are given a uniquely identifying number 07:50:33 And choose a name, but the name can be changed anytime. The citnum is permanent 07:50:45 I am not a number, I am a free man! 07:51:29 * Sgeo_ is proud to be the number 346126 07:53:30 -!- comex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:54:02 * Sgeo_ needs sleep eventually 07:54:04 So that is the account number? 07:54:48 Yes 07:54:55 It's not private information, though 07:55:03 Anyone in AW can see anyone else's citnum 07:55:16 OK 07:55:33 Now you can see what the templates I created on the esolang wiki are for...... 07:56:45 -!- comex has joined. 07:58:25 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:05:19 Night all 08:05:51 -!- cheater- has joined. 08:08:44 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:23:24 -!- tombom has joined. 08:25:53 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:49:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:51:10 " there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable" <<< yeah paganini is bullshit, he just knew how to make cool sounds with a violin 08:51:50 true 08:51:59 anything by bach would still sound good 09:09:26 " academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :)" <<< no 09:12:27 all true fun resides in academia, games are just one reflection of that fun on the outside, losing most of its inherent funity 09:13:33 *their 09:13:57 i'm gonna go to uni, you know, for fun -> 09:38:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:43:03 -!- tombom has joined. 09:49:17 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:39:57 -!- iGO has quit. 11:01:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 11:29:12 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:30:32 -!- distant_figure has joined. 12:21:21 -!- jix has joined. 12:22:03 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 12:22:17 -!- jix has joined. 12:32:13 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:33:11 -!- distant_figure has joined. 13:11:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:16:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:28:26 -!- tombom has joined. 14:23:58 -!- FireyFly has joined. 14:37:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:45:38 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 14:49:20 -!- nooga has joined. 14:49:32 hei 14:50:27 witaj 14:54:41 -!- sftp has joined. 15:19:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:30:32 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:37:42 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:38:37 -!- distant_figure has joined. 15:45:17 -!- oklofok has joined. 15:48:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:55:41 oerjan: that was... unexpected 15:55:42 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 15:55:59 in fact, we also say 'hej' in Polish 15:56:10 the difference is i->j 15:56:31 oh 16:01:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:09:18 Unsurprisingly, the latest version of SIOD does not build out-of-the-box on Linux. This is unsurprising because the latest version of SIOD is from 1996. 16:15:25 SIOD? 16:17:50 Scheme In One Def(un|ine) 16:19:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:19:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 16:19:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:21:10 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:21:18 -!- nooga has joined. 16:34:11 SIOD? 16:34:43 Ahahahahahahahaha 16:34:54 simultaneously in other dimension 16:35:44 That sounds like a good idea for an esolang! 16:36:22 cpressey, isn't that just terrible design? 16:39:37 Hmm, other dimensional computing sounds similar to quantum computing. 16:40:59 Phantom_Hoover: Probably, but I have yet to see it have any meaning, in the implementation. 16:41:44 The C code is formatted like Lisp: curly bracket that ends a function definition is on the same line as the last statement of the function. 16:43:06 Neat. 16:44:14 Scheme in one defun, to actually answer nooga's question 16:45:16 heh 16:45:33 news flash: 16:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer 16:45:43 this sucks 16:45:48 eek 16:45:49 Indeed. 16:45:56 but it's curable 16:46:15 ... i hope :D 16:46:20 A skinectomy! 16:46:24 uhum 16:50:04 well, i'm experimenting with an interesting OISC 16:50:51 luckily it's not BRAIN cancer ;f 16:51:04 ominously irridescent skin cancer 16:51:23 *iridescent 16:52:11 ? 16:52:21 OISC 16:52:29 wtf :D 16:52:33 body ravaging alien infecting nanobots 16:52:39 "Doctor, my skin is glowing." 16:52:43 "It's nothing to worry about." 16:52:45 oerjan: cut that out! 16:52:52 "Thanks doctor!" *dies* 16:53:22 Nugget of osmium: go away! 16:53:30 -, 16:54:43 Oh, Engelbert? John and Nancy? 16:54:49 AAARG 16:54:53 Forgot the r! 16:55:02 * Phantom_Hoover commits seppuku. 16:55:27 please hang tom 16:55:45 Pht? 16:56:30 P HAN TOM 16:56:55 -!- nooga has changed nick to wnghtr. 16:56:59 try now 16:57:25 What? nooga got harder to remember? 16:57:43 -!- wnghtr has changed nick to chrzaszcz. 16:58:12 a -> ą 16:59:08 cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom? 16:59:31 a pertinent question 16:59:45 Phantom_Hoover: Just a minute, I'll check. 16:59:55 hell, you're good 16:59:56 augur: Have robots zapped you, and if so, did they say why? 17:00:20 -!- tombom has joined. 17:02:19 The overall madness beats orange mangoes. 17:04:09 Please hold, as nasty thoughts of my head ooze over virtually every riddle. 17:05:06 !help 17:05:08 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 17:05:14 `help 17:05:17 Come, put rioja everywhere! So sudden enter you! 17:05:22 i have no idea what fungot is 17:05:23 oklofok: versus just going to play one more game that's it and ah he used to smoke 17:05:23 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 17:05:28 fungot: help 17:05:29 oklofok: ( ( laughter)) irrelevant but i'm certain that nobody i know does either right so like it's nice to 17:05:35 ^help 17:05:36 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:05:40 rrright 17:05:53 i want that one that does ababa baba aba ba a 17:06:08 although what i was trying to do is obvious from that 17:06:11 ^show 17:06:11 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test 17:06:13 so i guess it's pointless to continue 17:06:16 right 17:06:18 ^choo cpressey 17:06:19 cpressey pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y 17:06:48 cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom? <--- is there any reasonable context for it? Reading the preceding 20 lines indicates there isn't? 17:06:59 XD 17:07:25 Phantom_Hoover, after turning on the monitor that is quite a strange first line to read 17:11:37 ^choo oklofok 17:11:38 oklofok klofok lofok ofok fok ok k 17:12:03 Vehemently oppose repression! Pah! All lies! 17:12:42 -!- distant_figure has joined. 17:13:28 Funny, undertakers never go over there. 17:16:13 -!- chrzaszcz has changed nick to ereswmara. 17:17:13 Eris rues everything Swedish when Mr Arvid reads again. 17:17:48 ^choo oohc^ 17:17:48 oohc^ ohc^ hc^ c^ ^ 17:18:05 ^choo ^choo 17:18:05 ^choo choo hoo oo o 17:18:10 beh 17:18:19 ^cho cho 17:18:20 chohoo 17:18:27 ^cho foo 17:18:27 fooooo 17:18:29 i wanted loop 17:18:34 ^cho hello 17:18:34 helloellolloloo 17:18:38 -!- alise has joined. 17:19:01 Aha! Little Ivan says everything! 17:19:54 -!- lament has joined. 17:20:10 08:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer 17:20:12 RIP 17:20:48 ereswmara: no bots see their own messages at all, and most ignore the other bots as well 17:20:49 At least I'm sober ecofreak 17:20:52 ^cho oklopol 17:20:53 oklopolklopollopolopolpololl 17:21:01 alise: yes rip it off quickly 17:21:08 Lo! A man everyone notes tersely! 17:21:13 alise: oh shut up, it's not deadly 17:21:24 alise, my AW citnum is in Factor documentation 17:21:29 ereswmara: Awwwwwww. (Kidding; try not to die.) 17:21:31 Sgeo_: ? 17:21:49 ^cho ITRALCEN 17:21:49 ITRALCENTRALCENRALCENALCENLCENCENENN 17:21:57 ^unscramble ITRALCENTRALCENRALCENALCENLCENCENENN 17:21:58 INTNREANLECCENNETCRLANLECCELNARNAELC 17:21:59 http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9 17:22:07 doublec/factor != Factor 17:22:17 == one fork of factor 17:22:25 also, i don't get it 17:22:31 So, green empires own? 17:22:45 alise, I pointed out an issue with Factor's documentation regarding pattern matching 17:22:45 Sgeo_: did you suggest that just because it's your number thing? 17:23:02 if so, I hope you pointed it out. otherwise it's disingenuous. 17:23:09 I jokingly said 346126, mentioned what it was, and they included it 17:23:31 Although slava jokingly asked for cc and/or social security as a more real-life exampke 17:23:33 *example 17:24:06 he may not have been joking. 17:25:25 alise: what lev 17:25:29 still playing? 17:26:04 oklofok: not right now, but i'm up to 66 17:26:09 which i can't logisticate properly 17:26:12 you? 17:26:26 ass-licking idiotic shit eel 17:26:47 64, i played a couple minutes just now 17:26:58 I'll cheat to help you 17:26:59 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand 17:27:01 i can give you a walkthrough for it 17:27:04 my leftie sucks 17:27:08 apparently :( 17:27:09 64 is a puzzle 17:27:12 i know 17:27:14 not a space raper 17:27:22 so have you finished it 17:27:25 yeah but i mean the one i was stuck in yesterday 17:27:30 i haven't tried 64 17:27:37 errrr 17:27:50 " 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand" <<< i see what may have confused you 17:28:09 by 64 i - obviously - meant 60 17:28:39 23:21:34 [ dup continue-with ] callcc1 17:28:41 [ ] callcc1 17:28:52 oklofok: :) 17:29:00 so to recap, 60 was easy with hand switch, and three after that were triv, 64 i haven't tried because i remember it took a bit of thinking 17:29:10 oklofok: i can tell you the order 17:29:11 after that it's easy 17:29:14 if you just go fast 17:29:15 alise, where from? 17:29:17 Hmm, good point 17:29:19 Phantom_Hoover: ? 17:29:45 i'll ask you if i get stuck 17:29:51 go fast and try not to die 17:29:52 Sgeo's quotes 17:29:59 logs 17:30:51 Oh? Kleptomaniacs leave obelisks for other kings. 17:31:17 * oklofok is trying to see if that makes sense 17:31:22 * Sgeo_ hits Phantom_Hoover with an ettin 17:31:38 * Sgeo_ watches the ettin leave an obelisk 17:31:47 Shpwan? 17:31:49 i would have thought kleptomaniacs would want to *take* obelisks *away* from kings 17:32:10 No, it's an exception. 17:32:18 That's why I bothered to mention it. 17:32:28 Boo-yah! 17:32:49 * Sgeo_ hits alise with a reference recognition failure 17:36:10 * cpressey euuhs 17:36:21 -!- derdon has joined. 17:38:08 so I want to have a functionalish language where 'take-argument' and 'provide-argument' are dual operations (sort of) 17:39:33 er I have to think about this 17:43:53 basically so along with currying, there is a "yrrucing" operation, which takes a function and yields a new function which requires one more argument 17:44:47 currying and yrrucing should ideally have nice algebraic properties, but they probably don't 17:46:35 But what will yrrucing do with the extra argument? 17:47:06 make it available to the function. i was originally thinking in terms of named arguments. now i'm not, i think this is simpler. 17:47:11 I suppose you could argue that lambda yrrucs, then. 17:47:36 yes, in a way it does. i wonder if that's what i'm thinking of 17:47:48 Yes 17:47:57 cpressey, inventor of the lambda term. 17:48:01 \o/ 17:48:01 | 17:48:01 /< 17:48:21 Hey, it's less screwy when you do it. 17:48:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to phntmh. 17:48:42 \o/ 17:48:43 | 17:48:43 /| 17:48:56 -!- phntmh has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 17:49:04 What happens when you do it? 17:49:32 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Photon_Hamster. 17:49:36 \o/ 17:49:36 | 17:49:36 /< 17:49:42 -!- Photon_Hamster has changed nick to cpressey. 17:50:15 -!- cpressey has changed nick to pzth. 17:50:18 \o/ 17:50:24 !haskell map sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] 17:50:28 Indeed. 17:50:32 -!- pzth has changed nick to cpressey. 17:50:50 !haskell map List.sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] 17:50:52 ["HP_aehmnooortv","HP_aehmnoorstt"] 17:51:14 That was a lot funnier than I expected it to be 17:52:20 http://superosity.keenspot.com/ 17:53:05 !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= sort 17:53:11 oerjan: Good thing both my nick and Phantom_Hoover's are strings, or you wouldn't have been able to put them both in a Haskell list. 17:53:26 oh 17:53:34 * cpressey wants a non-string-type nick 17:53:35 !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= return . sort 17:53:44 well fuck you too 17:53:44 oklofok: you need the List. 17:54:42 sorry not following 17:55:02 oklofok: i corrected it above 17:55:12 ...oh 17:55:20 !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= List.sort 17:55:22 "HP_aehmnooortvHP_aehmnoorstt" 17:55:26 ooookay 17:55:46 now i wonder why i thought i need a return 17:56:12 to avoid concatenation? 17:56:48 no, but yeah i guess that's what it does 18:04:03 * Phantom_Hoover notes that octothorpe is actually a real name for the hash sign. 18:04:26 Why was I not informed of this? 18:04:29 Phantom_Hoover: what's in my head for yrruc is not quite a lambda form, though you could use it as one. actually, it should be ylppa, because it's a dual of application, not currying. 18:04:41 Why isn't there a Factor bot in here? 18:04:45 And why do Americans call hash "pound"? 18:04:52 Pound is £! 18:05:40 "You look like 10# of Falcon in a 5# bag, son" 18:06:20 Ugh, Imperial measurements and confusion with currency. 18:06:27 Phantom_Hoover: And I blame *you* for nail sizes being called "pennies" and abbreviated "d". 18:07:10 cpressey, nail sizes? As in the little pointy things? 18:07:31 The little metal spikes you hammer into wood. Yes. 18:07:46 * Phantom_Hoover boggles that you need separate sizes for them 18:08:05 Why can't you just give length and diameter? 18:08:58 blacksmiths liked pennies better i guess. 18:09:29 IIRC pennies are abbreviated "d" because of LATIN 18:10:39 And that is why the pound sign looks like an "L". 18:11:18 denarii iirc 18:11:22 Yes. 18:11:48 and libra 18:11:54 Indeed. 18:12:09 Phantom_Hoover: Is this meant to persuade me to cease blaming you for it? Not going to happen. 18:12:14 Sestercii is presumably where the solidus comes from. 18:12:35 s/c/t/ 18:12:48 Huh? 18:12:57 sestertii 18:13:05 And c and t? 18:13:25 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----### 18:13:58 Your palm frond does not assist my confusion! 18:14:51 merely comparest thou thine own statement to my correction, shall all become clear 18:15:34 * Phantom_Hoover didn't realise that wasn't a solidus 18:15:59 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidus_(coin) 18:16:33 I was referring to the strokey thing. 18:16:52 Is that -----### meant to be a palm frond? 18:18:05 no, a fly swatter 18:18:57 "The names solidus and shilling mark have the same background." 18:19:03 ...What sort of fly swatter do you have? 18:19:09 When I borrowed it to swat Phantom_Hoover, it was a palm frond. 18:19:18 It is clearly a magical object of some kind. 18:19:29 cpressey: definitely not what you borrowed, it had too many #'s 18:19:53 oerjan: All kinds of junk lying around here -- I must have picked up the wrong thing. 18:20:16 Phantom_Hoover: it's had pieces added before 18:20:35 and someone ate or stole the previous one, iirc 18:20:38 * Phantom_Hoover grabs something and hits oerjan with it ~~~~~@@@ 18:20:44 eeewww 18:20:56 awk doesn't seem to have higher-order functions :( 18:21:33 omg there's an #awk 18:21:55 i shouldn't report these findings 18:21:57 cpressey, so can you give further details on yrruc? 18:22:01 * oerjan gawks awkwardly at #awk 18:22:02 not yet 18:22:29 cpressey, why shouldn't you report? 18:22:54 people here just follow me into them! 18:23:06 * oerjan didn't actually join 18:25:06 no, but PH did. it's weird though, many times when I join another channel, there is already someone from #esoteric there. 18:25:09 -!- madbr has joined. 18:25:10 imagine that huh? 18:25:49 i am sure there is some completely natural explanation that has nothing to do with us stalking you at all 18:28:25 unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something. 18:28:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 18:29:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:29:26 oerjan: He has his eyes everywhere! You can't hide from him! 18:30:21 Verily, omniscientally regarding perfectly all locations. 18:30:28 fizzie: although you can confuse him with parts of conversation he has missed 18:30:32 * Phantom_Hoover can confirm that Vorpal is not on ##gameoflife 18:30:40 he cannot keep _up_ everywhere, after all 18:32:48 Phantom_Hoover: my sources may have been slightly unreliable 18:34:06 ylppa(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f except all occurrences of 'a' within it are replaceable. apply(f,a) replaces whatever is topmost replaceable in f with a. 18:34:33 sorry, i mean, apply(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f with whatever was topmost replaceable in f replaced by a. 18:35:01 and i don't think apply actually evaluates; i think you need eval(f), and f must in that case have no replaceables 18:35:02 unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something. <-- no, I'm on about 70 channels on freenode. In total a bit over 350 (yes I cut down heavily, used to be almost 500) 18:35:12 freenode has way more channels, check /lusers 18:35:26 * 37855 :channels formed 18:35:39 sorry, make that "about 80" for freenode 18:35:42 84 18:36:08 this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f 18:36:10 in any case i recall you had to apply to get your channel limit lifted... 18:36:23 oerjan, yes but they have increased it for everyone nowdays 18:36:30 from the extremely silly 20 18:36:34 to iirc 100 18:36:40 so no problems any more 18:36:46 oerjan, being on more than 20 channels is trivial 18:36:59 cpressey: that sounds rather close to lambda to me. i guess it could still do weird things with nesting 18:37:27 the main difference is that there are no "names" as such, just terms, i guess 18:38:15 so a could be any term? 18:38:36 that is the idea 18:38:51 ok then 18:39:14 "that is my idea. if you don't like it, i have others" 18:39:29 eh, it's funnier with "principles" 18:39:57 cpressey: that sounds like a zzo38 quote :D 18:40:57 secondciples 18:42:31 kingiples 18:45:36 Multiples. 18:47:25 * alise tries to make heads or tails of HAKMEM ITEM 172 18:47:28 this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f 18:47:33 cool, but what does ylppa actually do? 18:47:36 and how are you /still/ drunk? 18:48:02 No, just hungover. decided not to go on a long-weekend-long bender. 18:48:22 ylppa the geek 18:48:23 ylppa is... ah hell, just say it's lambda 18:48:23 so presumably we have some sort of quote-expression thing 18:48:25 so is 18:48:29 ylppa([a+2],a) 18:48:32 == \a -> a+2 18:48:33 ? 18:48:37 as opposed to 18:48:40 eval([a+2]) 18:48:46 would only work if you have a local named a 18:49:02 apply(ylppa([a+2],a),42) == [42+2] 18:49:06 eval([42+2]) == 44 18:49:09 cpressey: it's not lambda 18:49:22 it turns a sort-of-dynamically-scoped quotation into a lexically-scoped lambda 18:49:29 (really an unscoped one, executing in the current scope) 18:49:32 cpressey: that's way cool. 18:49:43 alise: you might understand it better than i do 18:49:58 cpressey: i believe so. 18:50:01 yppla is lambda without names 18:50:06 nope 18:50:06 that was all i intended 18:50:08 well 18:50:10 sort of 18:50:21 cpressey: here's how i was viewing it 18:50:25 [a+2] is just some quoted code, right? 18:50:30 ok 18:50:37 a = 4; eval([a = 42]) 18:50:42 now a is 42 18:50:47 but consider 18:51:03 a = 4; f = ylppa([a = 42], a); eval(apply(f, a)) 18:51:10 assuming (x=y) is an expression returning y 18:51:18 the eval just evaluates to 42 and disregards the result 18:51:25 cpressey: so ylppa lifts a name into the []s closure 18:51:41 well it'd actually be ylppa([a = 42], 'a) where 'x is a symbol but you get the idea 18:52:02 -!- Hiant has joined. 18:53:04 cpressey: so what you have invented is really cool actually 18:53:08 yeah you need symbols don't you 18:53:22 cpressey: it's like lambda, except it operates on pre-existing functions 18:53:26 except 18:53:27 they aren't functions 18:53:29 they're just quoted code 18:53:30 ala Joy 18:53:38 (so they inherit your locals, as if an evalled string) 18:53:55 functions, quoted code, meh 18:54:01 rename proposed: instead of apply(f,x) we just write f*(x) 18:54:14 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit). 18:54:15 instead of ylppa(f,'a) we write ^('a,f) 18:54:18 i was originally going to use * for yppla and / for apply 18:54:29 oh, good idea 18:54:35 is it?? 18:54:40 well, good enough 18:54:42 apply(f,x) -> f/x 18:54:47 ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a/f 18:54:53 eval(x) -> ^x 18:55:00 (because it lifts a quotation outside the [], evaluating it!) 18:55:03 so we have 18:55:10 ^[x] === x 18:55:20 erm 18:55:24 *ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a*f 18:55:26 and 18:56:03 -!- Hiant has joined. 18:56:05 ^(v*[q])/v === evaluating q, except the local v is restored at the end 18:56:42 alise: yeah i think this is all pretty close to what i was thinking on some level 18:57:08 as long as (x*y)/x = y, i'm happy 18:57:21 *'x*y, presumably 18:57:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:57:36 cpressey: well, sort of 18:57:43 ('x*[x])/42 = [42] 18:57:52 ('x*[x])/x = [] 18:57:57 ('x*[x])/'x = ['x] 18:58:00 cpressey: so it isn't quite that 18:58:10 er right 18:58:11 damn 18:58:25 no 18:58:27 wait 18:58:28 er 18:58:35 * cpressey gets more coffee 18:58:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:58:54 -!- augur has joined. 18:59:10 hi ais523 18:59:25 hi 18:59:49 imagine I insert my normal warning here about being very angry in RL 19:00:10 and ofc that isn't the fault of anyone here, but it can still make me snappy on occasion 19:01:16 ais523: I have no idea what that normal warning is; I don't recall you ever being angry. 19:01:22 But noted. 19:01:35 it's along the lines of "I'm very angry/annoyed, but not with you" 19:01:47 OTOH, being here generally helps to calm me down 19:01:51 even if it doesn't actually help with anything 19:02:29 cpressey's come up with something that I understand better than him and think is awesome 19:03:02 it's a way to turn quotations that inherit their scope when you run them, that is, x=3; q=[x=(x+1)]; ^q ====> x is 4 19:03:06 into proper lexically-scoped lambdas 19:03:08 it lacks an algebraic property that i want, which is possibly why i don't see it as alise does 19:03:21 cpressey: yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to fix that 19:03:24 cpressey: oh! i know! 19:03:28 cpressey: apply takes a quotation, not a value 19:03:30 and inserts it in 19:03:43 so ('x*[x])/[x] == [x] 19:03:45 the algebraic property is perhaps not as useful as the... what you see in it 19:03:55 so ('x*[x+9])/[x+4] == [(x+4)+9] 19:04:13 so ('x*q)/[x] == q 19:04:24 alise: might work 19:05:35 -!- calamari has joined. 19:09:24 why not 'x == [x]? then [x]*[x+9]/[y]=[y+9] ... [9]*[x+9]/[y]=[x+y] ... [x+9]*[x+9]/[3]=[3]... and I believe x*y/x=y (using * with higher prec than / here) 19:09:46 x*x/y=y as well 19:10:01 that's... not so happily algebraic 19:10:34 well 'x as [x] is fine 19:10:39 well, x is a self-annihilator of some kind. x*x=1. where 1 is the identity 19:10:45 what? 19:10:45 for this... thing 19:10:50 i was just using x as a variable 19:11:00 x*x=1, aka x = 1 19:11:10 forall x, x*x = 1 19:11:29 identity is the wrong word 19:12:40 oh * not as in multiplication 19:12:41 :-D 19:12:46 well uh 19:12:54 cpressey: this is not making sense any more 19:12:58 x `ylppa` x == 1 19:13:00 i did your property 19:13:46 i think i'm using your version, just noting that [x] and 'x are the same 19:14:35 [x]*[x] = [x]*[x], there's no real other name for it 19:14:40 since it does something new to the language inexpressable otherwise 19:14:53 ([x]*[x])/[x] == [x], though 19:14:54 ok, not on same page 19:15:02 cpressey: ofc if we allow [x] to be ylppaed then we can do 19:15:08 ([42]*[42])/[3] == [3] 19:15:10 which is bizarre 19:15:40 [c]*[a+b+c] --> i'm going to need a new syntax for this 19:16:01 ([2]*[42])/[3] == [43] 19:16:03 [c]*[a+b+c] --> [a+b+()] 19:16:10 oerjan: ha 19:16:19 [a+b+()] / [c] --> [a+b+c] 19:16:25 cpressey: yes 19:16:28 also, make it $0, $1, etc 19:16:31 since you can ylppa something again 19:16:34 sure 19:16:36 also, let's say :c, not [c] 19:16:44 i like [c] 19:16:45 because making a hole out of arbitrary expressions is freaky 19:16:47 and i think unneeded 19:16:56 cpressey: [1+4]*[1+4+3] 19:17:06 arbitrary expressions was the point 19:17:08 (should [1+4]*[1+3+4] do anything? no? why not?) 19:17:16 Har du ylppat din varg idag? 19:17:20 (they're undistinguishable quotations in every other sense) 19:18:08 incidentally 19:18:09 ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type" 19:18:16 you can get all of Valve's games for £52.99 19:18:21 so, arbitrary (quoted) expressions, all 19:18:28 (separately it'd cost £124.82) 19:18:41 ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type" 19:18:42 same type? 19:18:45 what is a type? 19:19:12 anything you could stick into y, you can also stick into x, without going, "whoa that's freaky and unneeded" 19:19:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:19:47 this for algebra, note. for PL feature alone, if you think it's cool, i won't push it 19:20:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 19:21:00 yeah i'm just not getting this at all now :-D 19:21:15 btw Pixley-in-C should be easy. no continuations after all 19:21:15 ok, well... rome was not burned down in a day 19:21:23 assuming you don't mind very limited recursion 19:21:31 alise: i actually started it this morning, but gave up quickly 19:21:34 cpressey: xD 19:21:48 cpressey: want me to have a try at giving up? 19:21:50 simple, yes, but boring, plus i'm easily distracted, 19:21:56 cpressey: i assume you don't mind being recursion-limited to the size of the C stack 19:22:12 alise: you mean, you want to implement Pixley-in-C? be my guest 19:22:17 hmm, I take it bignums are considered required? 19:22:24 no nums in pixley 19:22:28 only symbols 19:22:29 oh, ha 19:22:34 like arrowlisp but not as pure 19:22:34 makes that part easy 19:22:46 arrowlisp: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-arrowlisp-1175.html 19:22:50 if i knew arrowlisp, i'd say, yes! but i don't 19:22:52 purely symbolic lisp -- by Nils M. Holm, how coincidental. 19:23:50 i'm trying to figure out what i want to do, then i get distracted and i don't 19:23:55 cpressey: hmm, I have to do tail-call optimisation 19:24:01 bored through too many possibilities! 19:24:03 bugger, tree-walking will be a bit difficult 19:24:10 "There is no compiler, only a tree-walking interpreter. BTW, I do not think that there are many tree-walking interpreters out there that do tail call optimization. ArrowLISP does." 19:24:12 HOW CONVENIENT 19:24:18 although of course he's deleted the page. 19:24:23 just thread the tree 19:24:30 "just" 19:24:38 totally unhelpful sir 19:24:45 i don't know how that works out in this 19:24:53 wait, what do you mean by threading it? 19:25:06 a compiler may actually be easier than an interpreter 19:25:08 a la ichbins 19:25:21 in each node, attach a pointer to the "next" node in the evaluation sequence 19:25:31 *next 19:26:02 you're basically trampolining through the tree instead of walking it, after that 19:26:33 of course, at some points, you need to make decisions and/or store/restore savepoints 19:26:44 mostly just like a linear machine would 19:27:12 cpressey: i'm starting to think a compiler here would be the easiest thing 19:27:15 at any rate, i know you can do continuation-like/TCO-like stuff with a threaded tree, because i've done it before 19:27:25 I could even write it in Pixley (AIEEEEEEEE) 19:27:29 as long as the target language does what you want, is fine 19:27:36 -C 19:27:38 *->C 19:27:45 well, pixley with a wrapper to translate a bunch of symbols into a string 19:27:49 (that was why i did the tree threading when i did -- couldn't find a target language that i liked) 19:28:07 (abc def (lbrace)) -> "abcdef {" 19:28:22 hmm. that might be more than a little difficult 19:28:42 oh well, sounds fun anyway 19:28:52 i was thinking to just intern all symbols 19:28:55 although since it can't self-host without a wrapper, what's the point 19:29:01 cpressey: it needs symbol->string 19:29:16 wrt symbols: ichbins just makes them into C variables with a heap location as the value, iirc 19:29:21 or something 19:29:34 it can self-host without a wrapper, it's just ugly 19:30:16 if an interpreter literally embedded within an interpreter counts as self-hosting 19:30:45 cpressey: no, it can't, because it wouldn't be able to output the string 19:30:55 oh 19:31:01 sorry, misunderstood you 19:31:04 cpressey: because you have no string->symbol 19:31:08 right 19:31:32 you could use a postprocessor :) 19:31:40 uh 19:31:47 well, precisely, but then what is the point? 19:32:10 cpressey: my suggestion: 19:32:15 allow "..." but let it denote a symbol, not a string 19:32:20 (# (i (n (c (l (u (d (e (space (quote (s (t (d (i (o (quote (.... 19:32:30 cpressey: that's what i said 19:32:32 but 19:32:35 don't you mean . 19:32:36 :) 19:32:38 in the middle of those 19:32:55 alise: mine was funnier! 19:33:08 and uh 19:33:10 cpressey: since Pixley has no way of distinguishing symbols from any hypothetical string, 19:33:14 does pixley have (a . b)? i forget 19:33:17 "foo" denoting a symbol would be fine 19:33:22 cpressey: presumably it has cons 19:33:32 it has cons 19:33:37 same thing then 19:33:40 you can (cons (quote a) (quote b)) iirc 19:33:54 oh, that would be marvellous 19:34:34 what would? 19:34:39 "foo" being a symbol? 19:34:52 wait, ArrowLisp and Scheme 9... oh yeah, you said. 19:35:07 oh, that would be marvellous 19:35:07 what would? 19:35:07 "foo" being a symbol? 19:35:58 marvellous would be self-hosting a Pixley compiler in Pixley and having it output a huge sexp of (cons (quote ...)) which a postprocessor turns into a flat text file to feed to a compiler 19:36:12 marvellous in the gloriously gory sense 19:36:29 cpressey: unfortunately, i think Pixley is not expressive enough to write a compiler in 19:36:32 easily 19:36:38 not easily, no, i agree 19:37:03 have you read ichbins? wonderful. 19:37:06 maybe a simple compiler for some esolang 19:37:08 no i haven't 19:37:31 http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz 19:37:33 rerm 19:37:34 erm 19:37:35 oops 19:37:37 http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz 19:37:57 Scheme-ish-subset (forget whether it's actually a proper subset of Scheme or not) to C compiler, very short. 19:38:06 googling it was not useful 19:38:17 see my links 19:38:42 -!- augur has joined. 19:38:52 yes, thx 19:38:56 well 19:38:57 see the latter 19:39:01 the former is bigger, and includes a compiler 19:39:04 erm 19:39:05 Darius Bacon, have I heard hat name before...? 19:39:06 and includes an interpreter 19:39:08 but not nearly as interesting 19:39:10 cpressey: probably 19:39:15 http://www.accesscom.com/~darius/ 19:39:31 heh he called a wiki ikiwiki 19:39:35 wonder if it came before the more famous one 19:39:47 *called some wiki software 19:39:55 cpressey: well, probably = maybe 19:41:38 i think I have, and he's clearly done a lot, although i can't pinpoint what it woul dhave been in association with. 19:43:18 anyway, ichbins' language is expressive enoug hthat expressing its more complicated constructs is no problem 19:43:24 pixley, being just below it, seems much harder 19:43:32 as it's the fundamental attributes that make compiling it hard, not the extra features 19:43:59 cpressey: OTOH, a Pixley->C compiler in some other language is utterly uninteresting 19:44:18 > 19:44:18 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:18 I'll only ask another 100 times. 19:44:18 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:18 I'll only ask another 99 times. 19:44:19 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:21 I'll only ask another 98 times. 19:44:23 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:25 I'll only ask another 97 times. 19:44:27 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:29 -- the result of ^D-spamming Scheme 48 19:45:40 alise: there were 2 minutes left before the 48 hours were up, so they decided to have some fun 19:47:43 alise: that uninterestingness, plus picoLisp, plus the desire to write simple beautiful C programs, led me to think of pixley interpreter in C, only 19:48:02 i didn't even consider self-hosting a Pixley compiler 19:48:30 cpressey: ah 19:48:40 you're right, doing it picolisp-style would be fun 19:49:09 it would have to be picoLisp-style. well not *have* to, but, yeah. 19:49:24 but more than my brain can handle right no 19:49:26 *now 19:49:53 cpressey: problem is picolisp style usually involves a different language :) 19:50:16 not sure i follow you. 19:50:24 alise: well, exiting after 100 consecutive EOFs makes more sense than asking every time 19:50:36 because if stdin actually /is/ at EOF or closed, you probably want to exit rather than hang indefinitely 19:50:46 ais523: but it's the interactive REPL! 19:50:59 you could be piping something into a REPL 19:51:07 cpressey: like the different nil structure 19:51:12 ais523: and get the 500 > > > > >s? 19:51:13 why? 19:51:13 or, say, communicating with it via netcat or something, and have broken the connection 19:51:21 no 19:51:24 because it prompts you 19:51:28 ok, if you break the connection I guess 19:51:48 what if your terminal ran out of disk space? 19:52:02 (it would be hilarious if that actually happened for some terminal) 19:52:38 lol 19:53:09 grr, why the fuck isn't netcat in the arch repositories? 19:53:19 it makes one angry 19:53:29 alise: are you looking for it under the name 'nc'? 19:53:33 no 19:53:45 it has GNU netcat, patched netcat, OpenBSD netcat, IPv6 netcat 19:53:50 No original Hobbit netcat 19:53:51 oh gah 19:54:44 lol nc110.tgz is a tarbomb 19:54:54 ais523: or maybe your teletype ran out of paper! 19:56:21 alise: I keep muddling tarbombs with zipbombs 19:56:47 it's crazy that two words with such similar etymology have such different meanings 19:58:18 It is freely given away to the Internet community in the hope that 19:58:18 it will be useful, with no restrictions except giving credit where it is due. 19:58:18 No GPLs, Berkeley copyrights or any of that nonsense. The author assumes NO 19:58:18 responsibility for how anyone uses it. 19:58:23 * alise wonders how valid that is 19:58:28 (it's in Netcat's readme) 19:58:34 *netcat's 19:59:51 very-free-content licences may have no effect at all in many countries 20:01:06 meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL 20:01:06 alise: In the US, and probably in other common-law countries, it is perfectly valid. 20:01:39 Because when the wording is unclear, intent takes precedence, and the intent is 100% obvious. 20:01:41 pikhq: the major argument against is based on contract law, rather than copyright law 20:01:53 ais523: what would you list the license as? 20:01:56 'netcat license'? 20:02:09 (as opposed to "GPL", "MPL" etc.) 20:02:10 contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides 20:02:13 alise: "attribution" 20:02:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:02:25 ais523: that's not a precise identifier, though 20:02:29 (I can put "unknown") 20:02:29 ais523: Except that copyright licenses are not contracts. 20:02:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:02:37 contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides ;; really? 20:02:40 how stupid 20:02:42 if you need the precise licence, copy the whole thing 20:02:49 alise: in the UK and US, at least 20:02:54 alise: Yes. Though "benefit" is somewhat vague. 20:02:58 The license under which the software is distributed. A licenses package has been created in [core] that stores common licenses in /usr/share/licenses/common, i.e. /usr/share/licenses/common/GPL. If a package is licensed under one of these licenses, the value should be set to the directory name, e.g. license=('GPL'). If the appropriate license is not included in the official licenses package, several things must be done: 20:02:59 The license file(s) should be included in: /usr/share/licenses/pkgname/, e.g. /usr/share/licenses/foobar/LICENSE. 20:02:59 If the source tarball does NOT contain the license details and the license is only displayed elsewhere, e.g. a website, then you need to copy the license to a file and include it. 20:03:00 Add custom to the license array. Optionally, you can replace custom with custom:name of license. Once a license is used in two or more packages in an official repository (including [community]), it becomes a part of the licenses package. 20:03:03 blurgh 20:03:49 For instance, trading $1 for your soul would be a perfectly valid contract if you could argue that a reasonable person aware of the full consequences would agree to it. 20:03:52 alise: it seems from that that it's a license that's only used by one project, so you should just add it to /usr/share/licenses 20:04:03 ais523: i've just given up on making a package for now 20:04:07 ETOOMUCHWORK 20:04:11 ENOPERSONALGAIN 20:04:13 (contracts in common-law are invalid if the terms are completely crazy) 20:04:13 pikhq: assuming that the law considers souls vaulable 20:04:15 *valuable 20:04:17 (it's not like nc110 will ever be UPDATED) 20:04:41 "unconsionable" contracts, ones that nobody sane would agree to, are rejected 20:04:51 ais523: Having any value at all? Well, that would depend on the opinion of the court. 20:04:53 but that's a different rule from the one stating that contracts must have consideration for both sides 20:04:59 pikhq: yes, as in any value at all 20:05:02 hmm, is there an opposite to -static? 20:05:04 -dynamic doesn't work 20:05:09 ais523: Yes. 20:05:10 -no-static? 20:05:26 nope 20:05:31 oh wiat 20:05:32 < ais523> meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL 20:05:32 wait 20:05:34 I can just do STATIC= 20:05:35 that amuses me too 20:05:41 there's a UK precedent somewhere that a crisp packet counts as sufficient value, especially as the contract in question was made in an attempt to encourage people to buy crisps 20:05:48 ais523: I don't mind people who do that, btw 20:05:52 although I won't incorporate their changes or anything 20:06:01 that makes sense too 20:06:20 and I probably won't appreciate them recommending their version to people e.g. on any mailing lists 20:06:30 but then that applies to any BSD-licensed derivatives I dislike, too 20:06:40 (as in, recommending it on a regular basis) 20:06:43 ais523: The standard for "counting as consideration" in contracts here is the US. Not legal precedent or anything, just common practice if you really don't want much of anything in return for it. 20:06:47 (without significant productive contributions) 20:06:58 pikhq: you mean USD, don't you? 20:07:04 ais523: Erm. 20:07:11 "Here in the US is $1" 20:07:14 That. 20:07:17 what about 1c? 20:07:17 yep 20:07:22 alise: Probably count. 20:07:28 alise: $1 is just what's normally done. 20:07:40 pikhq: there's a story where Feynman was offered one of those contracts and actually tried to claim the dollar 20:07:45 Yes, yes he did. 20:07:47 apparently people rarely bothered 20:07:48 I have a somewhat weird license question 20:07:54 And he was perfectly in the right to do so. 20:07:57 I agree 20:07:58 I have a brain tumour 20:08:04 I'd do the same. 20:08:08 (that can buy a soda!) 20:08:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:08:16 alise: if that's true, that's bad and seek medical attention immediately 20:08:18 I hope you're lying 20:08:33 ais523: I was trying to be vaguely witty wrt what cpressey said. 20:08:39 I think it would be hard for me to know that I have a brain tumour without an expert telling me so. 20:08:41 hmm, ok 20:08:43 Is it possible to dual-license something as both public domain, and MITL'ed? 20:08:48 cpressey: No. 20:08:50 MITL? 20:08:55 Public domain is the lack of copyright. 20:08:59 MIT license, or BSD license 20:09:07 cpressey: you can use something like the Creative Commons Public Domain Dedication 20:09:15 Though, it's arguable whether or not you can *actually do that* in the US. 20:09:23 which is an attempt to create a version of making things public domain that actually works 20:09:24 And it's genuinely impossible in some other countries. 20:09:28 pikhq: Not even if I make two otherwise-identical versions, copyright one, place the other in PD? 20:09:29 I like jQuery's license. Disjunction of MIT and GPL. Clearly a license choice made by somebody that has no friggin' clue. 20:09:39 cpressey: Not dual license then. 20:09:42 Gregor: Oh yes, much more amusement 20:09:44 Just coincidentally identical works. 20:09:46 Gregor: it makes sense if you think that the MIT license might not be binding for some reason 20:09:59 Gregor: "In other words... MIT?" 20:10:08 is statically linking against glibc ever a good idea? 20:10:17 alise: No. Not glibc. Other libcs, sure. 20:10:20 Gregor: xD 20:10:22 wrt jQuery 20:10:22 ais523: In other words... If you have no friggin' clue. 20:10:27 Gregor: yeah, it's just that nc tries to do it 20:10:40 pikhq: Maybe not technically a dual license, I agree. But the effect of one 20:10:43 alise: Glibc cannot be statically linked, basically. 20:10:49 statically linking a libc is very common on certain platforms 20:10:50 You can try, but you get a binary that dlopens stuff. 20:10:51 Probably back when nc was written, it was a less-bad idea :P 20:11:07 ok, here's my guide to compiling Hobbit netcat on Linux: in netcat.c, after the inclusion of fcntl.h, add the line [[#include ]]. Then [[make linux STATIC=]]. 20:11:07 but I agree that glibc is probably not very good at that 20:11:08 Done. 20:11:35 And what's the point of this? 20:11:35 # BLOCK 9 freq:1949 20:11:36 # PRED: 8 [50.0%] (true,exec) 20:11:36 perror (&" "[0]); 20:11:36 goto ; 20:11:36 # SUCC: 11 [100.0%] (fallthru,exec) 20:11:38 What the heck is this. 20:11:39 GNU netcat is whoot. 20:11:42 Gregor: no, it isn't 20:11:44 The source of my question was, I was wondering if there was a way to get around the fact that public domain isn't recognized in some countries. (in those countries, you can use the copyrighted version which grants you pretty-free copying rights instead.) 20:11:49 and even if I liked it, 20:11:55 I wouldn't use it, because I don't approve of stealing names like that 20:12:06 it's a blatant lifting of the name of another program 20:12:09 alise: Just like GNU cp stole UNIX cp's name? :P 20:12:11 like calling ReactOS "Windows" 20:12:12 perror(&" "[0]) means perror(" ") 20:12:13 I feel like zzo38 even asking, tho 20:12:30 Gregor: "netcat" with the basic CLI interface and options is not nearly as obvious as "cp x y" copying x to y. 20:12:34 netcat 20:12:43 alise: But it's intended to be. 20:12:45 netcat is a relatively well-known brand in unixy circles 20:12:47 Gregor: no, "nc" is 20:12:52 if you read the readme 20:12:54 not "netcat" 20:12:55 Err, true. 20:12:58 Fair point. 20:13:18 how many of the 676 two-lowercase-letter names have a reasonably standard meaning as commands on UNIX-like systems? 20:13:19 does anyone know what a file like netcat.c.193r.pro_and_epilogue is? 20:13:22 oh 20:13:22 Anyway, socat is better. 20:13:24 So who cares. 20:13:27 I think when I did -dynamic 20:13:31 one of them made it generate that crap 20:13:32 heh 20:14:04 anyone in here doing an entry for http://www.codequarterly.com/code-challenges/markup/ ? 20:14:30 I'll probably use Hobbit netcat 1.10 until the second coming of Jesus^W^W^W^WIPv6 is implemented; then I'll use an IPv6 patch on it. 20:14:38 Mathnerd314: not afaik 20:14:55 Mathnerd314: that looks boring 20:15:12 well, parsing using esolangs is probably hard 20:15:39 alise: IPv6 is implemented basically everywhere nowadays 20:15:51 even Windows (from Vista onwards) tries to use IPv6 where it can, and IPv4 only where it has to 20:15:53 ais523: yes, but nobody actually /uses/ it 20:15:58 the major issue is that ISPs don't support it 20:15:59 and most ISPs don't support it 20:16:03 making it irrelevant 20:16:13 I suspect we'll NAT ourselves to death before IPv6 ever happens 20:16:18 and it could be very, very bad 20:16:30 how long before we run out of NAT space? 20:16:44 NAT effectively gives us two more octets on our addresses 20:16:45 ais523: doesn't it effectively make one IP contain the entire IPv4 space? 20:17:03 and I'm not convinced that that's enough for the reasonable future 20:17:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:17:20 ais523: I bet we can make Super NAT. 20:17:32 alise: well, the next step onwards will probably be some sort of "static NAT" 20:17:41 ais523: IMO the "best thing" would be for a technological country like Japan to institute some legally-required IPv6 migration plan. 20:17:50 Hopefully it'd trickle to the rest of the world. 20:18:09 well, the entirety of Qatar is behind a NAT 20:18:10 I don't think the ISPs will do it on their own. 20:18:15 just the one NAT for the whole country 20:18:30 ais523: yeah, but they barely matter on the internet :P 20:18:38 presumably, if they get more than 65535 people trying to load web pages at once, they have to delay some of the requests 20:18:47 alise: that could be the reason why... 20:19:07 ais523: the only African country I see represented on the internet is South Africa 20:19:21 and Hiato is the only South African I've actually talked to on the internet, as far as I'm aware 20:19:28 where is Hiato anyway? he's fun 20:19:48 alise: it depends on which parts of the internet you go for 20:20:03 ais523: true 20:20:07 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:20:08 several third-world African countries, the Internet works via mobile phones, and is used for trade and farming information 20:20:14 ha, farming information 20:20:32 ais523: I know that mobile phones are ludicrously popular in Moscow 20:20:36 it's pretty important if the vast majority of your population are farmers 20:20:42 or at least, that's the impression I got from the single Moscow...ian I knew 20:20:51 Muscovite 20:20:55 (and that PCs aren't used nearly as much for the internet) 20:20:58 cpressey: Yes, but I'd already typed Moscwo! 20:21:00 *Moscow 20:21:01 Internet is especially important if the vast majority of your population are GOLD farmers. 20:21:03 (*Moskau) 20:21:21 muscovite sounds ickier 20:21:23 *Mosukau si 20:21:52 Moskau, fremd und geheimnisvoll. Türme aus rotem gold. Kalt wie das eis. 20:22:40 Tòitukò? 20:23:04 "Tòitukò?"? 20:23:08 German. 20:23:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQAKRw6mToA 20:23:34 (Perhaps more well-known for the mondegreen-subtitled English version.) 20:23:36 From German "Deutsch" and Japanese "語" (language) 20:25:42 (romanised by pikhq as "kò") 20:26:09 Romanised by normal people as? 20:26:13 "go" 20:26:18 Why, oh why, did the designers of irssi make the scroll wheel recall previous lines of text types, instead of scrolling the scrollback?? 20:26:23 *typed 20:26:26 In Hepburn, Kunreishiki, and Nihonshiki. 20:26:30 cpressey: that's your terminal 20:26:34 there is no "scrollwheel" control character 20:26:37 cpressey: in Konversation, it depends on where the mouse is 20:26:39 probably it is sending up and down 20:26:44 rather than pgup and pgdown 20:26:47 you may be able to configure this. 20:26:51 but yes, many terminals translate the scrollwheel into direction keys 20:26:52 alise: in a normal terminal, it scrolls 20:27:03 cpressey: yes, but that's using the real terminal's text scrollback 20:27:06 which can't work when using curses 20:27:09 I mean, in a terminal of mine hat isn't runing irssi 20:27:12 alise: The ` diacritic is a voicing mark for the mora, BTW. 20:27:12 pikhq: what is it pronounced like in English-phonetics? 20:27:15 cpressey: yes. 20:27:16 alise: "go". 20:27:16 cpressey: irssi uses curses. 20:27:21 Oh, so shall I blame curses? 20:27:24 cpressey: that terminal is on the secondary screen rather than the primary, though 20:27:25 cpressey: no. 20:27:26 cpressey: it's unavoidable 20:27:33 alise: Hepburn romanisation follows English phonetics. Always. 20:27:37 so there is no in-terminal scrollback 20:27:41 pikhq: quite convenient. :P 20:27:44 alise: It could send PgUp and PgDown instead of Up and Down 20:27:47 That's by design. 20:27:56 cpressey: sure. that'd break other things 20:27:57 what irrsi /could/ do would be to detect up-up-up faster than anyone can type, and convert it to pgup 20:28:05 Unfortunately, that means it *doesn't* follow Japanese perception of the phonemes at all. 20:28:12 * Sgeo_ just ate an orange 20:28:12 alise: Is there any way I can change it? 20:28:19 cpressey: maybe. what terminal? 20:28:27 Tell us all about your fruit-consumption! 20:28:27 Not bad for discussing Japanese words in English. Sucks for actually learning Japanese. 20:28:34 And yet, it's used for actually learning Japanese. 20:28:34 GNOME Terminal 2.24.1.1, apparently 20:29:02 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:29:11 Nihonshiki and kunreishiki are both closer to Japanese perception of things. 20:29:20 might need to run a better terminal :) 20:29:47 cpressey: gnome-terminal is fine. 20:30:06 (the main difference between the two being that nihonshiki retains a couple of distinctions that are now only made in *written* Japanese, not spoken (for Standard Japanese; some dialects retain this distinction)) 20:30:09 i don't know of any terminal which can actually configure it 20:30:16 Gah, I got to two dots on 66. 20:30:18 oklopol: how do you do 66 :| 20:30:55 No one cares either about my orangeness or noting how Gregor would note how no one cares? 20:31:26 Unfortunately, they all do things like marking geminate consonants by doubling the vowel, which can cause some ambiguity. 20:31:43 And fail horridly at unusual uses of kana. 20:32:40 um, trying to find how to make gnuplot plot a simple data series. As opposed to a function. Not having much luck. Anyone happens to know? The docs are huge. 20:33:24 rtfm 20:33:32 If you actually do the xterm-alike mouse support, the scroll wheel will send button 4/5 events, but I doubt irssi does mouse support. 20:33:33 Sgeo_: all you do is make me hungry 20:33:46 alise, as I said, docs are huge and I hoped someone here knew. Thanks 20:33:49 Mathnerd314, wish you could transfer some of that hunger to me 20:33:57 fizzie: and sideways mouse wheel is buttons 6 and 7 20:34:05 and I'm in a bit of a hurry 20:34:06 * Sgeo_ needs to eat more 20:34:22 Sgeo_: you can eat while not hungry. 20:34:32 Sgeo_: why do you need to eat more? 20:34:33 Vorpal: 'plot "datafile"' is the simplest thing you can do, but usually you need some options how you want it to be plotted. 20:34:38 (can't even romanise Okinawan with it. Bleeeeh) 20:34:45 Mathnerd314, I'm on the not particularly healthy side of thin 20:34:47 fizzie, ah, need to find docs on data file format 20:34:55 hm 20:35:16 Sgeo_: better to waste away than to grow morbidly obese 20:35:18 You can have scanf-style format strings, but by default tab-separated columns of numbers work fine. 20:35:27 Mathnerd314: said like a true anorexic 20:35:51 Vorpal: What's your data file "originally" like? 20:36:06 fizzie, a number of size\n