00:00:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:00:14 <alise> I hate them because they broke my brain and I want it back.
00:00:34 <madbr> zzo: basically it's polyphonic zzt #play
00:00:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or does implementing monads in the language itself seem like an inelegant hack?
00:01:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much,
00:01:44 <oerjan> 13:00:14 <pikhq> 32-bit PCM is sufficient for recording the full dynamic range possible in air.
00:01:47 <oerjan> 13:00:18 <pikhq> This includes shock waves.
00:02:20 <oerjan> we need that for those realistic nuclear hand grenade first-person shooters
00:02:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's going to treat us like a band of trolls!
00:03:00 <madbr> pikhq: haha that's nice
00:03:00 <fizzie> oerjan: Also "end of the world"-class disaster movie soundtracks.
00:03:22 <Mathnerd314> alise: maybe you should just tell him that #esoteric is invading
00:04:09 <alise> Mathnerd314: "We will add your syntactical and semantical distinctiveness to our own. Your language will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
00:04:56 <alise> *semantic, not semantical
00:05:26 <Sgeo> Wow, that's a pretty good attack against the esoborg
00:05:39 <alise> Sgeo: What is, exactly?
00:05:41 <Sgeo> Have them try to assimilate a poisonous language
00:06:14 <alise> Mathnerd314: its only instruction is to load an esolang from the wiki
00:06:21 <alise> and combine it with the current one
00:06:22 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: we'd need a Category:Borg_assimilee to add to other languages then
00:07:02 <Sgeo> What happens when it tries to assimilate a Lisp and Factor?
00:07:09 <Sgeo> pre and post fix?
00:07:18 <alise> "They doesn't have to."
00:07:21 <Sgeo> Actually, I was vaguely wondering what a combination would be like
00:07:37 <alise> Sgeo: (define (f x) [(+ 2 "abc" length 2 +)] call)
00:07:56 <Sgeo> I was thinking more along the lines of some words being prefix some being suffic
00:08:02 <Sgeo> And no parents
00:08:57 <Mathnerd314> so something Haskell-like except with suffix-functions
00:09:37 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Did you just seriously use the word synergy in a non-ironic context?
00:09:37 <alise> <jonnymind> Phantom_Hoover: did you seriously use the word non-ironic in an non-ironic context?
00:09:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> You could probably run Wolfram Research in a few years if you started now.
00:09:38 <alise> <jonnymind> Phantom_Hoover: Uhm... is that good or bad?
00:09:46 <oerjan> incidentally, parens is no more a logical abbreviation of parentheses than parents is
00:10:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
00:10:20 <alise> But don't tell him anything.
00:10:25 <alise> This is a silent invasion of laughter.
00:10:27 <oerjan> ok maybe slightly, the latter divides a phoneme
00:11:23 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
00:11:38 <fizzie> Parenth, for people with lithpth.
00:11:41 <HackEgo> 218|<alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
00:11:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> jonnymind, oh, good. Your attitude towards language design is very similar to that of Wolfram himself.
00:12:04 <alise> <lucone> even the egos are similar....
00:12:04 <alise> * jonnymind searches the ban button :)
00:12:13 <alise> Even his channel members are turning against him!
00:12:35 <oerjan> poor lucone, banned for getting the joke?
00:12:58 <alise> everyone's just ganging up against him
00:14:26 <zzo38> Is there a addon for PPMCK that allows mixing MML codes with assembler codes and machine codes?
00:14:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <jonnymind> falcon had to be fast in managing raw native data in a way that was high level and comfortable in a script. ← therefore monads. Makes sense.
00:15:42 <alise> <alise> A design philosophy combines their justifications into one coherent goal.
00:15:43 <alise> <jonnymind> alise: was getting to it.
00:15:48 <alise> <lists 20 minor design goals>
00:16:16 <alise> When I degenerate into just outright flaming his stupidity, I'm gonna whip out the Borg line.
00:16:58 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Add to...?
00:17:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, stop being evil.
00:17:48 <alise> I seriously want to interrogate this insane man.
00:19:48 <alise> <alise> Feather barely even exists in its creator's mind.
00:19:48 <alise> <alise> (Like a four-spatial-dimensional object, poking slightly in and moving around in some incomprehensible way, dropping out occasionally.)
00:19:48 <alise> <lucone> that's poetry...
00:20:03 <zzo38> Add some of the INTERCAL stuff, such as the FORGET command and things like threaded COME FROM.
00:20:18 <zzo38> And also add the preprepreprocessor. (Enhanced CWEB has a preprepreprocessor)
00:20:19 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:16 -!- wareya has joined.
00:21:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I realised it could work earlier on being said by Falcon.
00:22:35 <alise> We shall take Tiger Mountain. By strategy!
00:22:37 <oerjan> <fizzie> cpressey: A friend just facebooked (and a friend-of-a-friend told a similiar story) about a plumber that came to fix something, left saying "I'll need to go get some more tools from the car", and then never came back (or at least not in two weeks).
00:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, BtW, Feather is meant to be computable, and AFAIK is.
00:22:50 <oerjan> clearly there is an epidemic of alien plumber abductions
00:22:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I know.
00:23:26 <oerjan> or wait the other one was a maintenance guy, not a plumber
00:23:35 <oerjan> but the evidence is clear, anyway
00:23:39 <cpressey> fizzie: FTR he did eventually come back and say that it needs a part that he won't be able to get 'til Tuesday.
00:24:05 <cpressey> Plumbers are just specialized pipe maintenance guys.
00:24:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ooh, maybe they've been abducting people to fix it, yeah
00:24:43 <alise> Unix is primarily about pipe maintenance.
00:25:22 <alise> Hey, another Voyager cast member who hates it!
00:25:24 <alise> [[After being cast as Harry Kim, Wang had a strained relationship with Voyager executive producer Rick Berman, who took over from Star Trek inventor Gene Roddenberry: "When Roddenberry passed the reins over to [Rick] Berman, unfortunately Berman kept the same formula. And he just kept plugging it in. So when I'm asked what made Voyager stand out...you are talking about the same overall formula so it doesn't. It has stayed the same for every single episode.
00:25:41 <oerjan> alise: why else would the internet tubes run on it, duh
00:25:47 <alise> [[In a 2007 interview with scifiworld.com, Wang voiced his displeasure about the show. He felt the Harry Kim character was "underused", passive and one-dimensional. Prior to Season 2, he went to the producers and said: "Listen I want to have a stunt double, I want to do some stunts, I want to run, I want to kick; I want to have a love life". He also stated to only have had "minimal" creative impact upon Harry Kim: he desperately wanted Harry Kim to be funn
00:25:47 <alise> ier, but the producers felt that Neelix or The Doctor fit better as comic relief. In the end, he described it as unfulfilling,[2] and also spoke of a "rift" between Berman and him.[1] When he complained that every other character on the show got promoted except Kim, he was told that he had to remain the lowly Ensign because "well someone's got to be the ensign".[3]]]
00:27:30 <alise> <alise> jonnymind: Philosophies usually are :)
00:27:31 <alise> <jonnymind> let's say that there may be different ways to solve a problem.
00:27:31 <alise> <jonnymind> Not the complexity theory.
00:28:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have to keep the peace.
00:28:18 <alise> This is interesting.
00:28:26 <alise> Although I have decided he simply has really terrible taste.
00:28:46 <alise> ... [ name|"unknown", income| {=> self.name.len()*100} ],
00:28:48 <Mathnerd314> hmm. Borg should have a design philosophy.
00:28:59 <alise> Just call me Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
00:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I am still of the opinion that his philosophy is that other languages have cool things, and that he wants these cool things.
00:31:19 <zzo38> Add commands to adjust the optimizer
00:31:40 <zzo38> Add stack based programming
00:31:49 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: to assimilate all other languages and their features is not obvious enough for you?
00:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> For Borg, how about have one construct, "<lang> will be assimilated" and then perform the following block of code?
00:33:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i haven't looked at falcon but my intuition is that there are clearly cool features in various languages that are _incompatible_ with each other. and that _might_ be part of falcon's problem, i don't know.
00:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly piping each block to the next, or viewing it as a function of some description.
00:33:56 <zzo38> You need function concatenation operator
00:34:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:35:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "<lang> will be assimilated [as <function name>] [with <implementation]"
00:35:35 <oerjan> (full type inference vs. object subtyping, for one. simplicity vs. all the rest, for another...)
00:36:27 <zzo38> You need to add some features that are like Forth. Often it is a kind of problem a bit sometimes that other program language do not have these kind of feature like Forth.
00:36:34 <zzo38> Add rule functions like Magic Set Editor has.
00:37:11 <alise> Very, very slightly.
00:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the overall justification is interesting, but not very sensible.
00:39:10 <oerjan> <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OOB seems to "tag" a value with a special invisible quality which makes some built-in functions do something different with it when they receive it.
00:39:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, why does everything have to be like Forth? Surely some non-Forth languages might be good?
00:39:52 <oerjan> hm that's more or less the idea i had for the LiMonadE vapor-language (unlambda + monads)
00:40:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, augh at the pun
00:40:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: Not everything has be like Forth, but some of these feature are useful
00:40:14 <oerjan> (the quality being the monad, of course)
00:40:38 <zzo38> Make a preprepreprepreprocessor
00:40:48 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
00:40:51 <zzo38> And also postpostpostprocessor
00:41:36 <zzo38> I think this kind of feature can be useful sometime
00:42:10 <Vorpal> I can't see the use for more than a single layer of pre-processing in general.
00:42:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:42:51 * Vorpal consider lisp meta-macros
00:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ...And jonnymind has just said that his monad model can easily break if you use it with map.
00:46:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:49:41 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB has its own meta-macros format, and they have many purposes, and can be mixed with TeX as well as with the C preprocessor, and that means it can do a lot of things.
00:51:17 <zzo38> (A common thing I use is to define @-p to predeclare a procedure as well as start its definition, without having to repeat it)
01:06:36 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:14:24 <cpressey> oerjan: Re Falcon: it is both the incompatibility of everything, plus the, well, non-standard nomenclature. I would bet the designers do not hold degrees in CS (otherwise they would be more careful about what they call a "monad" or "functional programming", is all.)
01:15:42 <oerjan> (mind you i don't hold a degree in CS either :D)
01:15:51 -!- Tatiana1 has joined.
01:16:52 <Tatiana1> First of all, sorry for my terrible english
01:17:36 <alise> We're not about religion.
01:18:16 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:18:50 <Sgeo> Let me come home
01:18:55 <Sgeo> Home is whenever I'm with you
01:18:58 <zzo38> You have to go to your own home
01:19:02 <zzo38> And I go to my own home
01:20:39 <oerjan> Tatiana1: i am from norway. although this channel is not usually an "ordinary" chat channel either (we talk about computers, technology and math a lot)
01:21:08 <Sgeo> Are you saying that ordinary chat rooms have most of the people be from the same area?
01:21:19 <Sgeo> If so, where would I find such a chat channel for my area?
01:21:32 <oerjan> actually i have no idea what they are like since i've probably never been on one :D
01:21:38 <Tatiana1> ok, it is a ecletic chat rsrsrs
01:22:07 <zzo38> It is for esoteric programming, so you can look at the wiki for more information about esoteric programming language
01:22:09 <alise> Sgeo: buy a dictionary
01:22:14 <alise> what zzo38 said, i was about to say that
01:22:20 <oerjan> Sgeo: what i really mean is that we're not the kind of chat where you start out by asking people where they are from ;D
01:22:21 <alise> Sgeo: or use the internet
01:22:59 <Sgeo> No such word as ecletic
01:23:07 <zzo38> It is correct. We not generally start by asking where you are from
01:23:12 <oerjan> although many of us do know where many of the others are from, eventually :)
01:23:28 <oerjan> at least approximately
01:23:37 <zzo38> Sometimes looking at the IP address / domain name can help a bit
01:23:47 <zzo38> To see where you are from, in case you are interested
01:24:15 <Sgeo> Well, the Internet has been unhelpful
01:24:52 <oerjan> and to do that, you can usually do a /whois someone's_nickname command. i think. it probably depends on client.
01:24:57 <alise> Sgeo: oh, i see, boring typo pointing outs
01:25:15 <Sgeo> And eclectic doesn't seem to have any.. oh, I see what he thinks this is
01:25:20 <Sgeo> Just a general chatroom?
01:25:25 <Sgeo> Combination of stuff?
01:25:26 <zzo38> In this client it just displays it in every message that user sends.
01:25:35 <cpressey> *Are* there "general chatrooms" on freenode?
01:25:41 <Sgeo> cpressey, defocus
01:26:07 -!- augur has joined.
01:26:09 <zzo38> We do all sorts of stuff in this channel, but mostly programming stuff, and sometimes mathematical stuff, and things related to that, are most common. And esoteric programming discussion is on topic to this channel.
01:26:10 <alise> cpressey: defocus; it's shit
01:26:40 <Sgeo> alise, it's an IRC channel
01:26:43 <Sgeo> How can it be shit?
01:26:54 <zzo38> (This client displays other client's IP address / domain name before every message, in dark cyan, after the @ sign)
01:27:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: we _are_ pretty eclectic, just not general. iiuc what eclectic means.
01:27:58 <alise> Sgeo: is this one of your hyper-literal-interpretations-are-hilarious thing, or just... I don't know
01:27:59 <cpressey> Tatiana1: #esoteric = (computer programmers | mathematicians) + (very smart | very strange | very creative)
01:28:07 <alise> cpressey: hahahaha
01:28:28 <cpressey> Tatiana1: I don't follow "rsrsrs".
01:28:31 <zzo38> cpressey: I guess that is pretty close!
01:28:43 <Sgeo> alise, it's an uttern failure to understand
01:28:44 <alise> #esoteric = (dabblers & dilettantes & amateurs) + (computing skill) + (a few people of actual merit) :-)
01:28:52 <alise> but we're cool dilettantes!
01:29:01 <alise> Sgeo: #defocus is shit. As a community ... it is shit.
01:29:02 <zzo38> alise: I suppose that is also it!
01:29:09 <alise> Are you unfamiliar with the expletive "shit"?
01:29:32 <oerjan> Tatiana1: rsrsrsrs isn't very common here, we usually use smileys or maybe a lol
01:29:35 <nooga> alise: who is of actual merit?
01:29:43 * Sgeo has never seen rsrsrsrs before now\
01:29:44 <cpressey> alise: I suppose I'm painting the ideal rather than the reality. But, damn, most of us *are* one of those.
01:29:46 <Sgeo> Have seen rsr5
01:30:14 <alise> nooga: well, that would be telling (and rude to everyone else). (ais523, cpressey, oerjan, a few others)
01:30:33 <nooga> ofc including yourself.... ?
01:30:42 <alise> nooga: I don't see why.
01:31:01 <nooga> nothing, ignore that
01:31:09 <alise> Dabbling dilettante with computing skill. I don't see why that doesn't fit me better than actually-skilled-person.
01:31:41 <nooga> Tatiana1: hau hau is actually a way to write the sound that dogs make
01:31:52 <zzo38> I think both cpressey's and alise's fits well.
01:32:12 <cpressey> alise: Well. If you want to look at what we DO, sure. We dabble. We... dilletante things up.
01:32:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: i have a hunch alise may think general chatrooms are shit in general
01:32:28 <alise> oerjan: absolutely not! I loooove #esoteric
01:32:50 <oerjan> alise: i thought we just established #esoteric was _not_ a general chatroom
01:32:54 <Sgeo> The observable Universe
01:33:03 <nooga> we had that map, remember?
01:33:04 <alise> oerjan: well we like to pretend it's not :-)
01:33:16 <zzo38> Tatiana1: I am from Canada, in case you really care. (You can check my domain name and see that my service provider is from Canada, too)
01:33:19 <alise> nooga: we downloaded all the data before the site shot itself
01:33:22 <Sgeo> He has no face!.... erm, it has no topic1
01:33:47 <oerjan> although of course #esoteric may be twisted into an approximation of what hyper-geeks might think an ideal general chatroom _should_ be. it's why i'm here, isn't it.
01:33:59 <alise> Tatiana1: England, the country of violating 14 year olds' human rights as defined by the UN, and rain.
01:34:03 <alise> Uhh, I'm totally not bitter or anything.
01:34:09 <Sgeo> Wow, that reference is ungoogleable
01:34:34 <Sgeo> It is modarchive.org -able
01:35:13 * Sgeo decides that the n in nooga stands for "nothing"
01:35:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: actually my swat wasn't for your misspelling, i didn't even notice that :D
01:35:36 <cpressey> Well, what, "on topic"? A few days ago I released a stupid language called Eightebed, which proved nothing *really*, but which released me to work on something else for a while. I've had a few ideas, one of which is a fixed set of grid-rewrite rules which I think could be Turing-complete in an interesting way.
01:35:42 <zzo38> Tatiana1: But maybe you want to see the things that the people on this channel have invented and stuff, if you really care, that is.
01:35:52 <nooga> Tatiana1: Poland, polar bears, vodka, moustache etc etc
01:36:07 <cpressey> And the occasional vodka moustache.
01:36:19 * Sgeo attempts to make BF-RLE sound important
01:36:23 <nooga> i've never seen a goddamn polar bear
01:36:38 <alise> nooga: oh in reply to what i said? :)
01:37:20 <Sgeo> http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=73115
01:37:24 <nooga> anyway, sleep time, brb
01:37:29 <Sgeo> shipped with the desktop version of Alchemy
01:38:16 <alise> Tatiana1: we didn't say otherwise
01:38:37 <cpressey> Tatiana1: I'm more of a "This sentence is false" person myself.
01:39:07 <Sgeo> This sentence is true but unprovable.
01:39:47 <Sgeo> This sentence is false, but its negation is unprovable.
01:39:57 <oerjan> nooga: i'm not sure you quite get the r part of brb
01:40:17 <oerjan> either that or you sleep rather fast
01:40:21 <Sgeo> This sentence is true, and its negation is unprovable
01:40:28 <Sgeo> This sentence is false and unprovable
01:40:34 <Sgeo> Work out stuff relating to the above
01:40:42 * Sgeo makes hand-wavy gesture
01:41:00 <oerjan> This sentence is equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis.
01:41:22 <Sgeo> Surely "The Riemann hypothesis." is simpler?
01:41:24 <cpressey> Tatiana1: Brazil's pretty cool. That's where Lua comes from.
01:41:31 <Sgeo> Surely "The Riemann hypothesis is true." is simpler?
01:41:32 <zzo38> This sentence's negation is provable if and only if the Riemann hypothesis is correct.
01:42:02 <cpressey> Oh, I forgot to mention: we're largely concerned with programming languages, formal calculi, and models of computation here.
01:42:17 <Sgeo> May be easier to deal with "This sentence's negation is provable if and only if statement P is true."
01:42:33 <Sgeo> See how that relates to statement P
01:42:58 <Sgeo> The jsforth guy complained about Lua due to lack of bit manipulation
01:42:59 <cpressey> Maybe "largely concerned" is too strong. Theoretically, we all like those things. They make us feel good.
01:43:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I also complained about Lua due to lack of bit manipulations, too.
01:43:54 <cpressey> I could care less for bit manipulations. I mostly like Lua.
01:44:12 <Sgeo> I don't mind 1-indexing in a language. But when it's supposed to interact with C..
01:44:27 <Sgeo> Not really a strong complaint, but still
01:44:39 <Sgeo> Ooh! adjustable indexing!
01:44:42 * Sgeo turns into a Perl
01:44:48 <alise> <oerjan> either that or you sleep rather fast ;; damn Uberman
01:45:06 <alise> <Sgeo> Surely "The Riemann hypothesis is true." is simpler? ;; Surely [Riemann hypothesis] is simpler?
01:46:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: I'm not thrilled with the conflating of maps and arrays. Part of me says, that's just going too far.
01:47:28 -!- Tatiana2 has joined.
01:47:57 <alise> cpressey: Better than Tcl conflating everything with strings.
01:48:39 * Sgeo o.Os at the number of Titanics in the Futurama universe
01:49:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: is it countable or uncountable?
01:49:14 <Sgeo> countably finite
01:49:27 * Sgeo wonders if "uncountably finite" makes sense
01:50:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: It only make sense if what you mean by "uncountably" is that it is too long to count and you don't have time or words for them
01:50:30 <zzo38> But that is probably not what is meant, because it isn't what it meant in "uncountably infinite"
01:50:31 <Sgeo> I hate only having 3 options when there are 2 booleans
01:50:38 <oerjan> there is that model of ZF without axiom of choice where two definitions or finite don't coincide, though
01:50:50 -!- Tatiana1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:50:52 -!- choochter has joined.
01:51:24 <oerjan> one of them being essentially "can be counted by a finite natural number", the other being "is not the same size as a proper subset of itself"
01:52:40 <Sgeo> Example of a set where those definitions aren't equivalent?
01:52:41 <oerjan> however if you can be counted by any ordinal at all, those two coincide
01:53:28 -!- Tatiana2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:54:18 <oerjan> well in such a model you have sets that are not equivalent to a proper subset of themselves, but which _still_ are not equivalent in size to any {1,...,n}
01:54:44 <cpressey> * Sgeo wonders if "uncountably finite" makes sense <-- Thank you; you are justifying "very strange"
01:55:11 <Sgeo> I don't want to have a table with 4 spaces with one space not making sense!
01:55:15 <cpressey> 1, 2, 3... ah, shit, I'm bored. Well, I guess that the numbers on the clock are uncountably finite.
01:55:15 <oerjan> you cannot embed _all_ the naturals into them, but you can embed any finite set of naturals. you cannot extend the embedding to all without using the axiom of choice.
01:55:16 <zzo38> I do sometimes think of strange things like that too, but not specifically that
01:55:19 <Sgeo> It's ugly and horrible and nightmare incuding
01:56:34 <oerjan> in a sense such a set is uncountable (not equivalent to a subset of naturals) but still finite in the other sense
01:57:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is ugly and horrible? And why?
01:57:46 <Sgeo> and ~A ~B doesn't exist
01:58:06 <zzo38> And in what context?
01:58:38 <Sgeo> Any! *insanes*
02:00:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind-finite
02:00:58 <oerjan> verbing non-verbs, a clear sign of insaning
02:01:12 <zzo38> I am a bit insane too, a bit.... but I don't consider myself ugly and horrible and nightmare incuding
02:02:54 * Sgeo happies oerjan for allowing "uncountably finite" to exist
02:04:33 <zzo38> Insane people do things that are improper because the proper way is very wrong
02:06:02 <cpressey> Celia Green wrote a book with the thesis that in all of human history, only two people were sane. Everyone else was (and is) insane.
02:06:14 <cpressey> Just thought I'd throw that out there.
02:06:44 <zzo38> And insane monsters do things that are very improper because the very proper way is extremely wrong.
02:06:57 <zzo38> And when I play D&D game I prefer to play monster character.
02:07:30 <zzo38> And also because someone wrote a book, I don't know which book I mean, though.
02:08:05 * oerjan seconds Sgeo's question
02:08:32 <zzo38> Yes, which two people? Or, does Celia Green not know which two?
02:10:08 <oerjan> clearly the answer must be something explosive.
02:11:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: Jesus Christ and Frederick Neitzsche.
02:11:36 <cpressey> Not saying I agree with her, or anything.
02:11:37 * oerjan had a hunch about the first one
02:11:40 <zzo38> cpressey: THey are also just as insane as everyone else, I think
02:13:31 <cpressey> zzo38: I agree. I would also note that Jesus Christ, as portrayed in the New Testament, is in my opinion largely fictional, and that ol' Fred is just as insane as anyone else, just in a completely different direction.
02:14:11 <cpressey> (I say the latter based on having read Thus Spoke Zarathustra; I've never read the New Testament from cover to cover, though.)
02:14:48 <cpressey> Fred makes some good points, but, sheesh. Calm down, dude. Sit. Have some tea. Organize your thoughts.
02:15:06 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes, I agree with you about Neitzsche, and about Jesus, that may be correct (we don't actually know what (if anything) happened, it is just written by a few people).
02:19:11 <zzo38> If my character is dead, I create another character, a different monster character, also, and beginning at the next session, and the DM has to fit it into the game somehow, there are many ways
02:21:10 * Sgeo wonders why people are following him
02:22:37 <zzo38> Are clones following you?
02:29:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:29:47 -!- augur has joined.
02:30:50 <oerjan> apparently they must have got him
02:32:27 <zzo38> Oops! I didn't mean to do that!
02:32:43 <zzo38> I pushed the "d" button! That makes the room exsovalve!
02:33:18 <oerjan> i would probably be panicking if i knew what exsovalve was
02:33:33 <zzo38> I don't know what exsovalve is either
02:34:02 <oerjan> good, good. then maybe we can avoid panic
02:39:23 <cpressey> Well, well, an INTERCAL reference in #haskell.
02:39:35 <cpressey> That means everyone playing "the game" has to take a swig.
02:43:37 <oerjan> so that's what they call "the game" these days
02:44:14 <oerjan> clearly INTERCAL is no match for haskell's reverse state monad
02:47:25 <cpressey> Ah, so much crazy, so little time.
02:50:17 <cpressey> What should I do, to make the best use of my limited crazy-time?
02:52:32 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't know?
02:53:22 <oerjan> this problem is obviously at _least_ NP-complete.
02:53:26 <cpressey> Of course not. Don't mean to put that burden on '
02:53:57 <cpressey> But first, I'm going to see if the reverse state monad is something real, or something oerjan just made up.
02:55:09 <oerjan> the top google hit seems aptly named
02:57:58 <cpressey> OK, I can only imagine how that works.
02:58:15 <cpressey> My understanding of monads is (ask Phantom_Hoover) still quite crude.
02:58:36 <cpressey> I was thinking just the other day,
02:58:51 <cpressey> "You know, there ought to be any number of really bizarre monads you could write"
02:59:06 <cpressey> (Not that anyone in this channel could think of any at the time)
03:02:09 <zzo38> I don't think of any at the time, because I don't know a lot about monads, to think of it.
03:11:26 <Sgeo> I thought reverse state was an esome inventiojn
03:12:51 <pikhq> Why is it that simply placing cheese between slices of bread and grilling it freaking *delicious*?
03:12:59 <pikhq> s/freaking/is freaking/
03:13:45 <zzo38> Because you can make sandwich!
03:14:09 <Sgeo> pikhq, I hate non-grilled cheese sandwiches
03:14:19 <Sgeo> Are grilled really that much better? I never tried
03:15:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: ... Non-grilled cheese sandwiches? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS.
03:15:32 <cpressey> pikhq: There is a scientific reason. Let me see if I can remember it.
03:15:33 <Mathnerd314> I just eat the bread, then eat some cheese a while later...
03:16:51 <zzo38> Grilled sandwich is better, at least in my opinion.
03:17:15 <Mathnerd314> if I have some tomato in it too, then definitely yes
03:18:37 * Sgeo should find out how to grill sandwiches
03:18:50 <Sgeo> I need a grill, don't I? Are there safe indoors grills?
03:18:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's *ridiculously* easy.
03:19:03 <calamari> you need a frying pan and some butter
03:19:10 <pikhq> Get a frying pan, some butter, and a sandwich.
03:19:44 <pikhq> Heat up frying pan. Butter bread. Apply to frying pan until sufficiently grilled. Flip. Apply to frying pan until sufficiently grilled. Remove. Eat.
03:20:25 <Sgeo> How long does that take?
03:20:26 <alise> <Sgeo> pikhq, I hate non-grilled cheese sandwiches
03:20:26 <alise> <Sgeo> Are grilled really that much better? I never tried ;; yes
03:20:29 <pikhq> Okay, yes, you can also just oil the *pan* instead of the *sandwich*.
03:20:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Like, 5 minutes?
03:20:46 <alise> they are far, far better
03:20:51 <alise> I must advocate the superior option
03:20:58 <alise> Here is how you make cheese on toast:
03:21:01 <cpressey> Damn, I cannot find a reference to it. But I found a book with a fantastic title: http://books.google.com/books?id=-oRp5VCVTQQC
03:21:07 <Sgeo> It doesn't taste less bad after some time, does it?
03:21:24 <Sgeo> I might end up bringing such sandwiches to school
03:21:24 <calamari> Sgeo: unless you like it burnt
03:21:36 <Sgeo> No, as in, make it, bring it to school, eat at school
03:21:38 <alise> Cheese on toast: Put butter on two slices of bread. Thick bread. Put cheese on these two slices. Strong cheese. Grill it (or whatever you want to do instead).
03:21:59 <alise> This is a more manly dish than a grilled cheese sandwich, but ... rather harder to store.
03:22:04 <alise> And you want to eat it hot.
03:22:21 * Mathnerd314 thinks about using an actual grill to make grilled cheese
03:22:58 <Sgeo> MMaybe I won't spend so much money on buying chicken sandwiches from the place on campus
03:23:19 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so. Texas toast and strong cheese.
03:23:28 <Sgeo> Then again, it is... why isn't poultry meat?
03:23:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's best hot.
03:23:38 <alise> Sgeo: It ... is ....
03:23:47 <alise> pikhq: Texas toast? Fuck that shit.
03:23:53 <pikhq> alise: It's thick bread.
03:24:08 <alise> pikhq: Nobody British enough to make a proper cheese on toast would buy anything with Texas in the name.
03:24:28 <cpressey> Anyway, I dimly remember some biochemistry term like "queso-opioid" or something, to refer to the chemicals that are produced when you bake or fry cheese.
03:24:32 <pikhq> alise: "Texas toast" is literally just thickly-sliced bread.
03:24:40 <alise> pikhq: Also, if it's bright, strong yellow and sliced it's not cheese.
03:24:48 <alise> I'm talking proper fucking cheddar here.
03:25:03 <cpressey> Damn! I want to go there sometime. To Cheddar, I mean.
03:25:08 * Sgeo decides not to make a Sgeo-style joke
03:25:09 <pikhq> alise: You want more horrification?
03:25:18 <calamari> so cheese tastes better melted because it's filled with drugs?
03:25:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: The cheesy channel | (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:25:20 <pikhq> alise: There's things more artificial than "American cheese".
03:25:24 <cpressey> I wonder if they have a cheese tourism culture there... like Wisconsin.
03:25:36 <alise> calamari: haha wow
03:25:45 <pikhq> alise: For instance, there's "sliced cheese food product". People actually buy this and eat it.
03:26:03 <alise> pikhq: Well, I am totally not hearing you!
03:26:50 * Sgeo has no clue what kind of cheese is in the house
03:26:54 <Sgeo> American, I think
03:27:06 <pikhq> alise: Mostly composed of vegetable oil.
03:27:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Get you some cheddar. Now that's cheese.
03:28:42 <alise> Sgeo: American cheese is just bad cheddar + various other suspicious crap added + stupid colouring.
03:28:59 <alise> + whatever else Kraft decides they want you to have in your body as opposed to something you actually want in your body -- of the week
03:30:34 <pikhq> alise: Actually American cheese is just leftover bits of cheese from *various things* + emulsifiers + stupid colouring.
03:30:48 <pikhq> alise: With more crap added to make it lower quality sometimes.
03:31:15 <pikhq> (if it's pre-wrapped slices, it's got crap added. And it's vomitous, rather than merely crappy.)
03:31:40 <alise> pikhq: Oh, so no actual proper cheese.
03:31:57 <alise> Well, apart from leftovers.
03:32:02 <alise> Sgeo: tl;dr get some mature cheddar.
03:32:03 <cpressey> calamari: I only wish I could find a reference for it so I'm sure I'm not hallucinating it.
03:32:07 <alise> No, not medium. Mature.
03:32:17 <alise> Not extra-super-duper mature, though, that's kind of icky.
03:32:22 <Sgeo> I've never been interested in cheese enough to care before
03:32:27 <alise> (Icky = Hey, I eat one crumb and it feels like my mouth hurts.)
03:32:39 <alise> Sgeo: That's probably because American cheese is the most boringly uninspiring food product there is.
03:32:49 <alise> Cheddar itself is delicious. Seriously.
03:33:02 <madbr> why does american cheese taste so bad
03:33:44 <alise> madbr: as in [does it really?] or [what is the cause?]
03:34:11 <pikhq> alise: Sometimes, it's instead just throwing together milk, whey, milk fat, milk protein, salt, and emulsifiers in the right proportions.
03:34:31 <pikhq> And yes, it is the most boring and bland cheese ever.
03:35:01 <pikhq> Cottage cheese has more flavor. And *that's* just curds and whey with some of the whey drained off.
03:36:14 <madbr> american cheese has a flavor
03:36:45 <pikhq> Crappy American cheese tastes bad.
03:36:51 <pikhq> "Good" American cheese just lacks taste.
03:37:28 <madbr> there are many grades?
03:38:11 <pikhq> Are you familiar with Cheez Whiz?
03:38:42 <madbr> familiar no, I stay the hell away from that stuff
03:38:52 <pikhq> Those are also American cheese.
03:38:54 <madbr> and my parents never buy it
03:39:48 <pikhq> alise: Easy Cheese, BTW, is "cheese" in a spray can. Yes. A spray can.
03:39:52 <alise> The only contact we Brits have with your icky American cheese crap is when we go into burger joints.
03:40:05 <pikhq> alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Easy_cheese2.jpg
03:40:13 <alise> Yes I... loaded the page.
03:40:18 <alise> That doesn't look like cheese.
03:40:34 <madbr> 1) cheese is not orange
03:40:36 <pikhq> It tastes like artificial cheese flavor.
03:41:00 <alise> If Kraft died tomorrow, the only innocent casualties would be a few chocolate brands.
03:41:06 <alise> (Toblerone, Milka. That's all I can think of.)
03:41:10 <pikhq> madbr: Cheddar cheese often is. (for no good reason, it's very common to dye it orange-yellow-ish)
03:41:23 <madbr> pikhq: that's regional
03:41:34 <madbr> pikhq: here they don't dye it so it's white
03:41:42 <zzo38> Where I live, they make cheddar cheese both white and orange, they make both kinds.
03:41:56 <alise> strong cheddar is never coloured in my experience
03:42:04 <alise> the orange is just the wimpy stuff for people who can't handle cheese
03:42:11 <alise> (and ofc you can get white mild cheddar too)
03:42:39 <pikhq> alise: I think you'd be amazed by some of the processed "foods" available in the US.
03:42:51 <alise> "In 1995 it was revealed that the Swedish politician Mona Sahlin had bought, among other things, two bars of Toblerone using her Riksdag credit card (i.e. taxpayer's money). This became known as the Toblerone affair. Sahlin was forced to step down as a candidate for the post as Prime Minister."
03:43:12 <alise> Wow, in the UK when our MPs started putting houses and porn and shit on their expenses, we just yelled at them for a month or two.
03:43:25 <pikhq> WE HAVE MOTHER FUCKING IMITATION MAYONNAISE.
03:43:33 <cpressey> Well, porn is one thing. But TOBLERONE???
03:43:38 <alise> pikhq: ...but mayonnaise is the simplest thing to exist, ever
03:43:58 <pikhq> alise: "Miracle Whip". It's imitation. Fucking. Mayonnaise.
03:44:18 <alise> pikhq: I don't want to talk about this any more or ever again or ever make it stop
03:44:51 <alise> Make the pain stop
03:44:53 <cpressey> pikhq: One thing I have discovered is that in the US, unlike Canada, you can get actual *pickle relish*. It's amazing. I didn't even know it existed before.
03:45:04 <pikhq> cpressey: Pickle relish is delicious.
03:45:21 <zzo38> Is it illegal in Canada?
03:45:42 <cpressey> zzo38: No -- I had just never been able to find it. It's all sweet relish.
03:45:59 <madbr> "In 1933, Kraft was a well-established distributor of mayonnaise, yet sales were slipping as a result of the Great Depression.[citation needed] Kraft developed a new dressing similar to mayonnaise, but at a lower price. Premiering at the Century of Progress World's Fair in Chicago in 1933, Miracle Whip was an instant success as a condiment on fruits, vegetables and salads."
03:46:06 <alise> Pickle relish is CORRUPTING OUR CHILDREN
03:46:32 <pikhq> alise: Hey, be glad you're not Italian.
03:46:39 <zzo38> I have no children and I use no relish.
03:46:41 <pikhq> alise: Oh how I could make you pain.
03:47:06 <pikhq> Y'know what, this might actually do it anyways.
03:47:08 <pikhq> alise: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Kraftparmesan.jpg
03:47:11 <zzo38> alise: COMMUNIST???
03:47:18 <pikhq> Yes, really. That's powdered "parmesan".
03:47:19 <oerjan> alise: mind you Mona Sahlin got better, she's currently the opposition's PM candidate
03:48:34 <alise> oerjan: Wow, I'm amazed that's a scandal over there. Props to you guys.
03:48:47 <alise> zzo38: SOCIALISM FASCISM
03:49:10 <pikhq> alise: Oh, there's also imitation whipped cream.
03:49:24 <oerjan> there's currently somewhat of a "scandal" in norway about at least three government ministers accepting afghan carpets as gifts (completely legally, mind you)
03:49:28 <pikhq> Often in a spray can!
03:50:06 <oerjan> (those are the prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister, i.e. the three that actually had any business going to afghanistan)
03:50:09 <pikhq> alise: BTW, I'm only naming highly commonly consumed things, not niche oddities.
03:50:17 <alise> pikhq: Can I cry please?
03:50:31 <pikhq> (otherwise I'd mention things like canned pancake batter)
03:50:35 <Sgeo> I think I accidentally got upset over a simplification for teaching the other day
03:50:46 <alise> oerjan: Can you guys let me come live there? Thanks.
03:51:07 <Sgeo> Although I didn't realize that that's what it was, and I didn't know what it was non-simplified, and I got confused because the simplified BS made no sense whatsoever
03:51:41 <Sgeo> I suppose I should explain what I'm talking about
03:53:08 <pikhq> alise: We also brought non-dairy creamer to the world.
03:53:39 <pikhq> ... No, that was Switzerland.
03:53:56 <Sgeo> She was talking about sigfigs
03:53:57 <pikhq> Switzerland AND BRITAIN
03:54:04 <pikhq> alise: You should be ashamed.
03:54:15 <Sgeo> And how for addition and subtraction, you just look at the number of significant figures after the decimal place
03:55:03 <Sgeo> I didn't realize that this was just equivalent in some cases (presumably all that we'll be dealing with) to making the highest-place sigfig be the highest lowest sigfig in the operation
03:55:04 <alise> Sgeo: why is that being taught in university?
03:55:26 <pikhq> alise: Not taught in high school.
03:55:38 <Sgeo> We did do sigfigs in HS
03:55:47 <Sgeo> It's just been a while
03:55:56 <alise> the unit did significant figures shit with me recently (year 10; most people would be 15, me 14)
03:55:59 <alise> and i remember thinking
03:56:04 <alise> why is this simple shit being taught so late??
03:56:17 <oerjan> alise: it was also mention iirc that the minister for development (i.e. charity) had gotten a goat and a wife in sierra leone. however, he apparently didn't bring either back home ;D
03:56:24 <pikhq> alise: In many high school programs, it's not taught at all.
03:56:35 <alise> oerjan: The goat /was/ the wife.
03:56:43 <alise> pikhq: I refuse to answer. Let me cry alone.
03:56:52 <pikhq> I wish I were joking.
03:56:53 <oerjan> alise: no, that was another story, which i also seem to recall :D
03:57:11 <cpressey> Name a programming language or library which supports significant figures.
03:57:25 <oerjan> (the goat and the wife were as _gifts_, in case it wasn't clear)
03:57:45 <alise> "Here! Take my wife, Western king! (She's a whore.)"
03:58:01 <Sgeo> Sounds Stargate-ish
03:59:05 <pikhq> alise: About what age do you guys generally get to algebra?
03:59:54 <alise> pikhq: Uh, around the same age.
04:00:12 <alise> Trivial shit, like "find x and y".
04:00:23 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, around the same age.
04:00:30 <calamari> I took it in 8th grade.. so what's that.. 13?
04:00:33 <pikhq> Which is pretty depressing.
04:00:45 <alise> pikhq: Around the same time as significant figures. :P
04:00:45 <pikhq> calamari: About. I did it in 7th.
04:00:53 <alise> Although, perhaps earlier, actually.
04:01:07 <alise> Since the unit were on this ridiculous "HE IS LACKING IN EDUCATION" kick at the time.
04:01:25 * pikhq did calculus his junior year. Whooooo...
04:01:34 <Sgeo> Isn't Education sometime around the 18th birthday?
04:02:28 <zzo38> I used sigfigs in physics class. I don't like using sigfigs except with scientific notation. When the question involved sigfigs I wrote down the answer using scientific notation.
04:02:32 <calamari> I saw political sign saying all kids should learn to read by 3rd grade.. I couldn't believe my eyes
04:02:51 <calamari> but I live in AZ.. and we suck :(
04:03:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:03:30 <pikhq> calamari: I remember people still struggling with reading in my 3rd grade class.
04:03:34 <Sgeo> Supposedly, every kid in my kintergarted class learned to read rather quickly
04:03:37 <cpressey> ISTR sigfigs way earlier than algebra. Then again, ISTR a sigfigs "refresher" in 1st-year undergrad physics. Soooo...
04:03:42 <Sgeo> It was at some SLCD place
04:03:58 <pikhq> The teacher decided to teach phonics then. First time they'd seen any hint of words having anything to do with phonemes.
04:04:20 <calamari> people make fun of phonics.. but they work
04:04:26 <cpressey> Stupid phonetic alphabet! Who needs it!
04:04:37 <Sgeo> "The School for Language and Communication Development"
04:05:07 <pikhq> calamari: Better than brute-force pattern recognition.
04:05:12 * Sgeo o.Os at it being a school for children with "language and autism disorders"
04:05:29 <pikhq> FWIW, is *not* how Japanese or Chinese people learn their script...)
04:05:55 <zzo38> pikhq: Perhaps there is different way learning better for a different language
04:06:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I'm just pointing that out because some idiots go "ZOMG Chinese does whole language stuff THATS GREAT"
04:06:38 <pikhq> (even though there's rather a lot of phonetic cues in there)
04:06:41 <alise> <calamari> I saw political sign saying all kids should learn to read by 3rd grade.. I couldn't believe my eyes ;; what age is third grade?????
04:06:42 <zzo38> pikhq: O, that is why
04:06:51 <Sgeo> Because this channel has, at least once, tried to convince me that I am not on the spectrum?
04:07:17 <alise> I don't see why the kindergarden you went to should change any of that.
04:07:18 <pikhq> alise: Uh... 8 to 9.
04:07:29 <alise> Probably everyone in here has at least a minor--
04:07:54 <pikhq> alise: "n the United States, third grade (called grade 3 in some regions) is a year of primary education. It is the third school year after kindergarten. Students are usually 8 - 9 years old, depending on when their birthday occurs." -- Wikipedia
04:08:44 <alise> People who can't read by the time they enter nursery -- or at least leave nursery to enter proper school -- are considered thick as all hell.
04:09:12 <Sgeo> Doesn't everyone get the Reading stuff at 8 years old?
04:09:17 <pikhq> alise: Is nursery the equivalent of kindergarten?
04:09:23 <alise> Sgeo: "the Reading stuff"?
04:09:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: ... What? What?
04:09:37 <alise> pikhq: Pretty much. I'm not sure whether it's leaving nursery or entering nursery when you should be able to read or else you're really fucking retarded.
04:09:37 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yes it is.
04:09:37 <cpressey> ISTR everyone being able to read, and probably write, in 1st grade.
04:09:45 <alise> Like, someone learning to read in nursery is probably considered fine.
04:09:47 <Sgeo> http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php
04:09:48 <alise> Although your parents probably suck.
04:09:51 <alise> For not teaching you sooner.
04:09:54 <cpressey> I'm assuming nursery == kindergarten.
04:11:32 <pikhq> alise: Kindergarten is not compulsory in all states.
04:11:57 <alise> I dunno if nursery is compulsory here.
04:12:01 <alise> But point is, wtf Arizona.
04:12:25 <pikhq> As such, there are many who arrive in first grade (that's about-equal to *year two* for you) not being able to read.
04:12:35 <alise> Ha, I have addictified cpressey with my quasi-opioid drug toast.
04:13:19 <alise> pikhq: I propose brutal eugenics.
04:13:22 <pikhq> "In language first graders are taught the fundamentals of literacy, including reading sentences, writing very simple statements and mastery of the alphabet, building on what the students have learned in kindergarten or other forms of pre-school (although because first grade is the first compulsory level of education in many U.S. states, the level of literacy in incoming students can vary widely)." -- Wikipedia.
04:13:34 <alise> Sure, it'll be utter fascism for a few generations, but it's not like it'll be any worse than your current political climate.
04:13:36 <pikhq> Yes, the *fucking alphabet*.
04:13:41 <alise> And then you can get some actual shit done.
04:13:45 <pikhq> *Six and seven year olds*.
04:14:44 <pikhq> Along with such concepts as "a clock" or "a calendar" or "money".
04:15:01 <alise> I hate your country.
04:15:05 <alise> And not for your freedom, either.
04:15:18 <pikhq> I get the feeling this was designed assuming that parents would never interact with their crotch-fruit.
04:15:41 <alise> Crotch-fruit is the most horrific term I have ever heard.
04:17:49 <pikhq> alise: How does primary-school math education go there?
04:19:00 <alise> Uhh... in a way that I utterly cannot remember. Ask Wikipedia.
04:19:13 <pikhq> It doesn't detail.
04:20:25 <Sgeo> alise, have you already read Profession, so I can spoil it?
04:21:32 <pikhq> "In the United States, in mathematics, fourth graders are usually taught how to add and subtract common fractions and decimals. Long division is also generally introduced here, and addition, subtraction, and multiplication of whole numbers is extended to larger numbers."
04:21:44 <Sgeo> I remember, the day we were to learn multiplication
04:21:51 <Sgeo> I had watched some tapes on arithmatic
04:21:55 <alise> Sgeo: Of ... integers?
04:22:01 <Sgeo> And I was convinced that a*b != b*a
04:22:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, of naturals.
04:22:12 <Sgeo> I think I've said this before
04:22:26 <cpressey> I remember long division! 4th grade sounds right. I still do it sometimes.
04:22:38 <zzo38> Why were you convinced that a*b != b*a ?
04:22:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: this is clear proof of the matrix
04:23:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, it made no sense that 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 4 + 4 sort of thing should always work
04:23:41 <Sgeo> I've mentioned this in here before
04:23:52 <Sgeo> I remember once, in 6th grade
04:24:14 <Sgeo> Convincing myself that 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0. I think because 2/0 * 2/2 = 4/0
04:24:23 <Sgeo> But then how did 1/0 interact with stuff
04:24:26 <cpressey> < oerjan> (mind you i don't hold a degree in CS either :D)
04:24:31 <Sgeo> I ended up crying over this
04:24:38 <alise> so basically Sgeo has always been a crank mathematician at heart
04:24:40 <Sgeo> (I was a bit of a crybaby)
04:24:43 <cpressey> oerjan: No, clearly your degree was in Punning.
04:24:43 <alise> ...ok, maybe you are autistic
04:25:08 <alise> Admittedly, Dot Action has driven me near tears these past few days, but I think that is intentional on the part of its creator.
04:25:10 <Sgeo> Or my memory may be wrong :/
04:25:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes you did mention about 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0, before.
04:26:08 -!- augur has joined.
04:26:19 <oerjan> Punning should so have been a city in china
04:27:22 <cpressey> There once was a man from near Punning, who had an idea oh-so cunning
04:27:57 <cpressey> Limericks are going TOO FAR, cpressey
04:28:11 <oerjan> especially when you don't manage to make them scan
04:28:46 <oerjan> or is "idea" two syllables
04:29:18 <oerjan> not that it scans _well_ in any case
04:29:40 <Sgeo> ANnoying: Having to explain to an adult why x/0 is generally not considered to work before explaining how I think I'm getting it to work
04:29:40 <alise> There once was a man from near Punning
04:29:41 <alise> Who had an idea oh-so cunning
04:29:41 <alise> Waking the next day
04:29:41 <alise> He found the neighbour's wife stunning.
04:29:44 <alise> I couldn't come up with the last line
04:29:51 <alise> so I made up something random instead
04:30:53 <cpressey> oerjan: Um... the "a" in "idea" just sort of floats there non-disruptively in the meter, for my ears. But I can see how it might not technically fit
04:32:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:34:13 -!- augur has joined.
04:40:32 <madbr> afaik "idea" isn't germanic native
04:40:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:43:19 <Sgeo> So close to finishing stage 32
04:45:17 <oerjan> madbr: afaik it's greek
04:49:10 <Sgeo> Just got the last green dot on 32 and died
04:50:07 <cpressey> No flash = No Dot Action 2. :(
04:50:10 <Sgeo> The fun thing is that the part that looks hardest is incredibly easy
04:51:37 <pikhq> madbr: Yeah, but this is English.
04:51:44 <pikhq> madbr: We despise native words.
04:51:47 <alise> cpressey: And thus no purpose in life.
04:52:26 <pikhq> madbr: To the point of having a non-native *pronoun*.
04:54:43 <pikhq> "they" is from Old Norse, rather than Old English.
04:57:03 <Sgeo> 33 was annoying
04:57:56 <Sgeo> Is 34 supposed to be doable?
05:01:30 <pikhq> Nope, that's from Old English.
05:01:40 <pikhq> Obvious cognate with Old Norse, though.
05:13:18 <Sgeo> alise, I see absolutely no way to travel down the staircase of 34
05:13:38 <alise> Sgeo: Uhh, screenshot me up. I forget.
05:13:59 <Sgeo> It's annoying to post screenshots
05:14:17 <Sgeo> ...I know about it
05:14:22 <Sgeo> It's what's before that's annoying
05:14:26 <Sgeo> Remember, I'm on Windows
05:14:48 <alise> Fine, I'll do all the work for you as well as telling you how to do it.
05:15:11 <Sgeo> No, I want a screenshot program that automatically uploads to imgur
05:15:58 <alise> Sgeo: another tip: Higher is better.
05:16:06 <alise> Another tip: Control is unnecessary.
05:16:24 <Sgeo> I kind of revealed that a bunch of people from another channel are the new people in #falcon
05:16:25 <pikhq> Huh. "Modern Indo-European".
05:16:31 <Sgeo> Now one person's asking me from where
05:16:40 <Sgeo> Don't know if I should reveal it or not
05:16:54 <pikhq> Start with reconstructed Proto-Indo-European, specify enough of it to make it an actual language.
05:16:54 <Sgeo> If I jump before the staircase, I die
05:16:55 <alise> We don't need those people :P
05:16:58 <alise> Sgeo: So don't jump.
05:17:16 <Sgeo> If I don't jump, I die
05:17:24 <Sgeo> Unless maybe if I start on that elevated thingy and
05:18:39 <Sgeo> Now I died on that lone block
05:21:06 <Sgeo> Need to kill old habits
05:21:50 <Sgeo> C L E A R ! ! !
05:28:33 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:34:46 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:35:12 -!- augur has joined.
05:40:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:47:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:02:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
06:51:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:51:17 -!- augur has joined.
06:56:49 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur).
07:08:58 <Sgeo> 105 requires a bit of thought
07:10:03 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
07:11:03 -!- comex has joined.
07:13:12 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:13:43 <cpressey> Sgeo: I just tried writing my first Falcon program, and it doesn't even *work*.
07:14:17 <cpressey> This language is fascinatingly bad.
07:14:30 <Sgeo> Oh, Falcon, not Factor
07:15:18 <cpressey> http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=sitewiki&prj_id=_falcon_site&sid=wiki&pwid=Code+Snippets&wid=snippet%3Apicker <-- the first program there, what would you expect it to output? 89, maybe?
07:17:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:29:54 <zzo38> I don't know how well it works, or how good it is.
07:30:55 <zzo38> But it does have some good features, such as metacompilation and prototype OOP.
07:34:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:40:10 <zzo38> I would probably use a different program language
07:46:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:56:30 -!- Nomz has joined.
07:57:16 <Nomz> Sum 1 here ?????
07:57:50 <Nomz> I didn't get n e reply frmm n e 1
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:25 -!- Nomz has left (?).
08:03:26 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:07:16 -!- Zuu has joined.
08:07:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
08:07:16 -!- Zuu has joined.
08:33:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:42:32 -!- kar8nga has joined.
09:01:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 18:44:14 <oerjan> clearly INTERCAL is no match for haskell's reverse state monad ← I must see this.
09:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> 19:59:54 <alise> pikhq: Uh, around the same age. ← My school did it at around 11 or 12 for the top set, although it was pretty trivial.
09:51:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "Falcon is a small, fast and powerful embeddable programming language."
09:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently they are using some odd definition of "small".
10:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> They're trying to make a language bigger than Common Lisp!
10:07:14 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:11:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
10:17:27 <Vorpal> annoying, it seems I have constructive interference of the noise from my computer and my monitor. Causing a very annoying high pitched tone exactly where it is most comfortable to sit. Moving head a few cm in any direction removes the noise. Turning off monitor removes it. But it isn't there when listening close to the monitor when it is turned on.
10:29:03 -!- tombom has joined.
10:30:34 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:12:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
11:12:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:58:49 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:04:00 <wareya> I have come to the conclusion that brainfuck is not an esoteric language; it is well known and somewhat popular. The only thing that can define it as esoteric, as of now, is its being of a turing tarpit. However, many non-esoteric languages are also turing tarpits - such as BASIC, Bash, and PHP.
12:19:51 <nooga> PHP is turing tarpit??
12:23:13 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_UNIX-HATERS_Handbook
12:23:25 <nooga> lol, it was almost like Windows for them
12:24:39 <wareya> "3 Documentation? What Documentation?"
12:24:57 <nooga> i can assign almost every chapter to recent MS Windows systems
12:25:16 <wareya> Windows XP is still my favorite OS
12:25:45 <wareya> aside from the lack of inter-process comunication, and driver hell, I haven't had a single problem with the OS itself.
12:26:05 <wareya> Not counting the lack of DX10/11.
12:26:08 <nooga> i also used it for a long time
12:26:28 <wareya> Also not counting the awful Luna theme.
12:26:28 <nooga> but then my computers had more cores and RAM than XP can handle
12:26:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:26:53 <wareya> I ran it on a 2 ghz machien with 2 GB RAM, and an ati x1500.
12:29:14 * Phantom_Hoover decides he hates the UHH purely on the basis of its front cover.
12:29:40 <wareya> Good points aren't something that you throw away because of their tone and source.
12:36:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:37:09 -!- nooga has joined.
12:48:38 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:54:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:10:57 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:46:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
14:47:56 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:04:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: then it was that the text was indeed in english.
15:19:28 -!- alise has joined.
15:26:25 * Phantom_Hoover is now of the opinion that Turkish Star Wars is far funnier than Plan 9.
15:34:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:34:58 <zzo38> Now I have written a "munching squares" program for BytePusher.
15:51:06 <zzo38> It is much shorter than the other two programs.
15:51:43 <zzo38> This program is 3073 bytes long. The scrolling logo is 100608 bytes long. The keyboard test is 130558 bytes long.
15:52:52 <zzo38> See the screenshot on the wiki page for BytePusher
16:04:17 <zzo38> (There is a article about munching squares on Wikipedia)
16:04:18 <cpressey> 09:53 < OmniMancer> from what I read in the logs these people have been locked in a closet with a small set of very pure langauges all their lives and know nothing of the real world
16:04:59 <alise> cpressey: from #falcon?
16:05:16 <alise> Is jonnymind there?
16:05:22 <alise> Darn, yes. So he can ban me.
16:05:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: has the discussion been relatively civil?
16:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, jonnymind wasn't there until just before I left.
16:06:24 <alise> cpressey: has it been?
16:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OmniMancer was exasperated, but that was the extent of it.
16:09:30 <zzo38> Example of PUSHEM code: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.pushem
16:10:18 <alise> cpressey: Tell me what the replies are :-)
16:10:20 -!- sftp has joined.
16:10:30 <alise> zzo38: that's cool
16:11:34 <zzo38> alise: Can you understand this code?
16:11:46 <alise> zzo38: no, but i haven't tried
16:13:25 <zzo38> Why don't you try?
16:14:58 <alise> i might another time
16:19:58 <alise> Let's leave those retards alone. :D
16:39:18 -!- derdon has joined.
16:57:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:57:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:00:59 <alise> In 1996, Forbes went to work for Microsoft,[1] and Microsoft's cabinet archiver was enhanced to include the LZX compression method. Improvements included a variable search window size; Amiga LZX was fixed to 64kB, Microsoft LZX could range on powers of two between 32 and 2048 kilobytes. A special preprocessor was added to detect Intel 80x86 "CALL" instructions, converting their operands from relative addressing to absolute addressing, thus calls to the sam
17:00:59 <alise> e location resulted in repeated strings that the compressor could match, improving compression of 80x86 binary code.
17:04:53 <cpressey> alise: Well, I'm out of there, now. I kept it civil.
17:13:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:20:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
17:22:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:25:02 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:25:13 -!- yiyus has joined.
17:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, I just want to define the nats as a coinductive stream!
17:27:29 <alise> Doesn't sound hard.
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> I tried defining stream and smap appropriately, then defining the nats as cons 0 (smap S nats), but that violates one of the restrictions.
17:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> I suspect it's that smap isn't a constructor of stream, but I might be wrong.
17:34:47 <alise> I suggest defining your own types.
17:34:50 <alise> That usually works.
17:35:00 <alise> Just do it manually.
17:37:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:38:29 <alise> write your own corecursive thing directly
17:38:32 <alise> rather than calling smap
17:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, you presumably need to use a corecursive function to map S on a stream, and then we're back at square 1.
17:45:51 -!- cheater99 has joined.
17:48:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:53:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:54:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Uh, argument.
17:55:58 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:58:07 <alise> Addition where you pack the two together.
17:58:40 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Do you mean having type C -> C but *not* type R -> R or Z -> Z ?
17:58:40 <alise> But, uh, conjugate.
17:59:23 <Sgeo> I do now. And I did once.
17:59:24 <cpressey> It's my fault for not Blackboard Bold'ing it.
17:59:53 <Sgeo> But what would be interesting about having... actually, no
17:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, it should have interesting properties when an image is transformed with it.
18:00:02 <Sgeo> R->R but not Z->Z would also be interesting
18:00:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Not really.
18:00:21 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, multiply by i?
18:00:36 <Sgeo> that's not _that_ interesting
18:00:42 <Sgeo> Just rotation, I think
18:01:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: e^x?
18:01:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, pics?
18:02:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: What does e^x produce for images?
18:03:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, SRoMG does this a lot, and I'm wondering what else can be tried.
18:04:13 <alise> Please stop using that incomprehensible abbreviation.
18:04:56 <cpressey> Square Root of Minus Garfield?
18:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> But typing "Square Root of Minus Garfield" goes contrary to my laziness!
18:05:18 <alise> Arcsin(Garfield) is awesome
18:05:32 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=433
18:05:35 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=473
18:05:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: i^x? :PPP
18:06:39 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=415 log. Awesome!
18:06:56 <alise> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=400 exp)
18:07:23 <alise> Wow, there's 1 Over Garfield.
18:07:23 * Phantom_Hoover_ quite liked Garfield^-1 centred on Garfield's thought bubble.
18:07:26 <alise> And it is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=407
18:07:29 <alise> FUCKING DISTURBING
18:08:13 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=388
18:08:21 <cpressey> NOT SURE WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS CRAZY
18:08:39 <alise> "Complex little creatures, aren't they?" http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=156
18:08:53 <alise> Wow. Cube root is beautiful. http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=380
18:09:40 <Sgeo> You could satarize these strips with a 1 + Garfield
18:10:22 <alise> Firstly, not a word.
18:10:30 <alise> Secondly, it's already a loving parody of Garfield Minus Garfield.
18:10:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=368
18:11:03 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=351 fffff
18:12:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But it is inspired by, at least.
18:12:04 <Sgeo> alise, now read through all the Mezzacotta strips
18:12:55 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:13:27 -!- yiyus has joined.
18:14:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Link me to the FFT?
18:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=26 polar cöordinate transformed.
18:18:50 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:21:42 <Sgeo> My right ear's working again!
18:24:28 -!- nooga has joined.
18:24:48 <nooga> i use Y Windowing System
18:27:07 <Sgeo> Wait. I can say "asshole" on Fark?
18:28:33 <alise> You can say asshole any time.
18:28:36 <alise> nooga: because X is awful
18:28:52 <cpressey> ais523: My idea about while loops an TCL (I don't know if you recall it; doesn't really matter) did not turn out to be interesting,
18:29:39 <cpressey> Take the language of while programs. Add some kind of homoiconicity so that you can build programs from inside it. Enforce the rule that inside each while loop, the program must re-define the meaning of "while".
18:29:46 <Sgeo> alise, I can't say "fuck" on Fark
18:29:49 <Sgeo> It turns it to "Fark"
18:30:02 <alise> ais523: you don't what?
18:30:07 <alise> Sgeo: Fark is utter crap, anyway.
18:30:30 <cpressey> alise: pr. don't recall my offhand remark about my silly idea
18:30:35 <ais523> alise: I don't remember cpressey's idea about while loops and TCL
18:30:54 <cpressey> Anyway, there it is, if anyone wants it.
18:31:12 <cpressey> alise: Yes. Someone was answering someone else's question about TCL here at the time.
18:31:28 <cpressey> Oh, I think ais523 was playing with expect, that's why.
18:31:40 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:32:41 <nooga> alise: that's true
18:32:57 <nooga> i was wondering if there's something that could replace X in linux
18:33:06 <nooga> but i guess there isn't
18:33:55 <fizzie> You can run GTK+ stuff in DirectFB, that's sort of replacing X, but I don't know why anyone would.
18:34:29 <nooga> let's wait for open Aqua reimplementation
18:35:42 <alise> that you care about
18:36:02 <alise> and besides, it's just Display Postscript
18:36:29 <alise> someone is working on some X-compatible replacement minimal thing i think
18:36:32 <alise> dunno if it's any good
18:36:36 <Sgeo> Squeak and Pharo have some framebuffer thingy
18:36:44 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server)
18:37:05 * cpressey just realized that means Macs are running a crippled monster forthoid in their display systems.
18:37:14 <alise> dunno if it's actually X-compatible
18:37:22 <alise> cpressey: Nothin' wrong with PDF.
18:37:28 <alise> PostScript is cool, and PDF is just non-TC binary PostScript.
18:37:47 <alise> But not a crippled monster :P
18:38:03 <Sgeo> Is Factor a forthoid?
18:38:09 <alise> Besides, you used to be able to screenshot to PDF and windows were layers and shit.
18:38:11 <fizzie> There's also XDirectFB, which can put X windows into a DirectFB screen. (Don't know how compatible that is either.)
18:38:16 <alise> And it would scale (although a lot of graphics are bitmaps)
18:38:21 <alise> Dunno if you still can
18:38:25 <alise> (It used to be the default screenshot format)
18:38:31 <cpressey> Well. non-TC <-> crippled. Monster, referring to some of the interestingness that PS layered in.
18:39:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: I thought that's obvious? Unless you get pedantic.
18:39:54 <alise> Factor is a Joyoid.
18:39:56 <Sgeo> So all concatenative languages are "forthoids"? What's the point of the term "forthoid" then
18:40:07 <alise> It was more of a Forthoid to begin with.
18:40:22 <alise> But now with quotations and the like it's an imperative Joy, rather than a functional Forth.
18:41:00 * cpressey borrows oerjan's palm frond and swats Phantom_Hoover_ -----######
18:41:03 <alise> Of course non-TC <-> crippled
18:41:07 <alise> And HAHAHA @ cpressey being practical
18:41:19 <zzo38> Make a music scale (4/8,5/8,6/8,7/8,8/8)
18:41:41 <zzo38> Or, make a scale (3/6,4/6,5/6,6/6)
18:41:54 <alise> If cpressey invented Befunge-93 today, it wouldn't have a defined ASCII representation, it would be based on Minkowski space, it would have only 7 instructions, and the playfield would be 80 x infinity for some mathematical reason.
18:42:05 <alise> Or rather, the defined ASCII representation would be crazy and probably 1D.
18:42:15 <alise> At least, that's what the little copy of cpressey in my head would do.
18:43:39 <alise> cpressey: And it would only be arguably computable. :P
18:44:18 <cpressey> Its semantics would certainly not depend so unspeakably on those of C, that's for sure.
18:44:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Should I even ask what "Practical" with a capital P means to you?
18:45:06 <cpressey> Cuz that's, uh, a bit creepy to see.
18:45:28 <cpressey> Like identifying oneself as a Bright, or something.
18:46:44 <nooga> if i don't come back after reboot that means i borked my partition table
18:46:50 <alise> Hmm, ByteByteJump is {**(pc+1) = **pc; pc = *(pc+2)}. Is {**(pc+1) = **pc; pc = **pc} TC?
18:47:28 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
18:49:50 <alise> pc is program counter, of course.
18:50:05 <alise> cpressey: See, if I want to compete with BytePusher, I have to come up with my own, totally more awesome OISC.
18:50:13 <alise> And that has only two operands, making it INSTANTLY SUPERIOR.
18:50:48 <cpressey> I think it is, because I think you can encode SMETANA in it, but my brain isn't really working
18:51:45 <cpressey> Shows you how good I am at thi
18:52:29 <cpressey> Oh btw, that P != NP proof was debunked, wasn't it?
18:52:52 <alise> An August 2010 claim by Vinay Deolalikar, a researcher at HP Labs, received heavy Internet and press attention after being initially described as "seem[ing] to be a relatively serious attempt" by two leading specialists. The proof has been reviewed publicly by academics,[22] and it was found to contain irreparable conceptual-level errors as well as a number of concrete errors and flaws.[23]
18:53:17 <cpressey> Irreparable conceptual errors!
18:55:36 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if you can nicely define division using coinductive nats in Coq.
18:55:49 <alise> I think {**pc = **(pc+1); pc = **(pc+1)} is a better instruction.
18:55:52 * alise codes up a VM to play with it
18:57:34 <alise> Hmm, an infinite loop is...
18:57:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> So that infinity is S infinity, and hence div n 0 = infinity.
18:58:59 <alise> 64K of RAM should be enough for everyone
18:59:49 <zzo38> alise: It depend what you do
19:00:03 <zzo38> For a one instruction computer, it might not be enough for large programs
19:01:13 <alise> Hey, ByteByteJump has a major flaw.
19:01:22 <alise> The program counter is not exposed in memory.
19:02:18 <zzo38> alise: Is that a flaw? I programmed a BytePusher program, with conditional jumps
19:02:55 <zzo38> Since it has no calculation built-in, you have to use tables, and that makes my "munching squares" program size 3K (plus one byte).
19:03:21 <alise> Is {*pc = m[*pc] = m[*pc + 1]} valid C?
19:03:25 <alise> That assignment to *pc makes me think not.
19:03:39 <ais523> alise: yes, although not valid portable C
19:03:53 <ais523> it's conforming C because I know of at least one C compiler that accepts it, given an appopriate definition for PC
19:03:59 <ais523> and on which an appropriate definition is actually possible
19:04:16 <zzo38> The question, is, is it portable and properly defined?
19:04:16 <ais523> alise: a program can contain UB and be conforming
19:04:21 <zzo38> Of course it is a valid C code, though
19:04:36 <ais523> "conforming C" means "accepted by at least one C compiler", according to the standard
19:04:42 <zzo38> Any proper C compiler should compile it (as long as you put the semicolon in where it belongs)
19:04:52 <ais523> so you can just choose an arbitrary compiler that happens to define the particular UB you're using
19:04:55 <Vorpal> ais523, sure about that? I thought it meant following standard
19:04:59 <ais523> "strictly conforming" is what it needs to be accepted by all
19:05:16 <Vorpal> ais523, what if all happens to implement that UB the same way?
19:05:35 <Vorpal> ais523, true, but would it be strictly conforming then?
19:06:06 <ais523> as it's defined as "conforming + no UB, unspecified behaviour never matters, implementation-defined behaviour never matters"
19:06:52 <Vorpal> ais523, hm it could still end up strange if _all_ implementations misimplements a given part
19:07:03 <Vorpal> which means there is no compiler accepting the program
19:07:03 <ais523> then there are no implementatiosn
19:07:28 <ais523> Vorpal: you might be interesting to know that the C standard doesn't define behaviour of the programs output by a compiler
19:07:32 <Vorpal> ais523, and no program could ever be conforming
19:07:35 <alise> fread(x, N, ...) will always read N if the stream has at least N bytes in it, right?
19:07:37 <ais523> a compiler can just not produce an executable and still be strictly conforming
19:08:10 <ais523> alise: no, it can return a lower value if there will eventually be N bytes in the stream but they can't be retrieved immediately for some reason
19:08:36 <alise> ais523: this is a file
19:08:50 <ais523> the most common reason by far is network timeouts (say NFS), but there are others
19:09:05 <alise> but on a regular, local file?
19:09:08 <alise> this is just a quick hack, so
19:09:21 <ais523> for a quick hack, as long as your OS isn't doing some sort of crazy buffering you'll befine
19:09:36 <Vorpal> ais523, that depend on mount options for the nfs fs in question
19:09:51 <ais523> I mean, I reimplemented awk in about 10 lines for a quick hack this mornign
19:10:09 <ais523> of course it wouldn't work for general awk files, but it's good enough for processing autoconf output on a system that doesn't have awk
19:10:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm pretty sure (due to having used them) that there are mount options for nfs that makes it timeout instead of stall forever
19:10:39 <ais523> Vorpal: I tend to think in terms of "x can do that" rather than "x does do that"
19:11:04 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138253.txt?key=4fz7yhgu7qu0jczaxsla ;; that's the kind of instruction loop I like.
19:11:09 <ais523> for C programming, you know "under circumstances x, y can go wrong" and don't care about knowing the exact details of x
19:12:06 <Vorpal> things can go strange for sshfs (fuse based) too. If a file is open it won't time out and unmount if network is lost. Sometimes.
19:12:45 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138253.txt?key=4fz7yhgu7qu0jczaxsla
19:12:46 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt
19:12:54 <alise> the second of these is likely to be more efficient, right?
19:13:24 <ais523> Vorpal: reading from a network socket, if read's argument is larger than the packet size then it nearly always returns one packet rather than the amount you specified
19:13:27 <ais523> thus you have read returning low then
19:14:26 <ais523> you can't read EOF from an unclosed network socket, unless there's an error
19:14:44 <Vorpal> well obviously, I meant for streams and standard input
19:15:01 <Vorpal> ais523, in the standard input case you could get a "fake" EOF so to speak, from ctrl-d
19:15:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I didn't write it, dude, gcc and clang did.
19:15:33 <Vorpal> alise, best way to find out
19:16:51 <ais523> the "mov %edx, %edx" seems to do nothing
19:17:07 <ais523> I mean, that sort of thing is sometimes useful to set flags, but it doesn't seem to actually look at the flags afterwards
19:17:36 <ais523> unless the m() refers to a flag; I don't understand the syntax
19:18:26 <fizzie> mov doesn't set flags anyway.
19:18:31 <Vorpal> ais523, I presume m is a variable from elsewhere
19:18:36 <alise> with -Os it omits that instruction
19:18:37 <Vorpal> that is the only way that makes sense
19:18:47 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt
19:18:49 <alise> is obviously better, I think
19:18:53 <ais523> fizzie: ah, am I muddling x86 with other asms?
19:19:03 <ais523> in 6502, it sets the zero flag, although not the others
19:19:06 <alise> m is a variable from elsewhere
19:19:25 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt in clang's output it is just:
19:19:34 <alise> word m[ram_words];
19:19:58 <alise> word m[ram_words] = {load_addr};
19:20:01 <alise> would this initialise the rest to 0?
19:20:17 <Vorpal> alise, that looks like llvm asm
19:20:41 <alise> that's just my #define for int32_t
19:20:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: your interrobangs annoy me so much I just set my IRC client to replace interrobangs with normal question marks
19:20:49 <Vorpal> <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt in clang's output it is just:
19:20:49 <Vorpal> <alise> word m[ram_words];
19:21:17 <Vorpal> alise, well it doesn't make sense
19:21:25 <alise> i'm not talking to you
19:21:33 <Vorpal> still doesn't make sense though
19:21:49 <alise> hmm actually it is m:
19:22:02 <Vorpal> ais523, why do the interrobangs annoy you?
19:22:21 <ais523> because it's very rarely used correctly
19:22:37 <Vorpal> ais523, it is used to replace !? and/or ?! afaik?
19:22:38 <ais523> it wasn't then, really, for instance
19:22:41 <fizzie> ais523: I think the usual thing to do is to set flags on arithmetics, not movs, but I really haven't made a survey on this. (My handy single-page messy 6502 instruction chart says LDA/LDX/LDY set both N and Z.)
19:22:47 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, and I dislike the punctuation generally
19:23:12 <Vorpal> ais523, well, he could just switch to use !? or !? then. Are you going to filter that as well?
19:23:16 <ais523> exclamations are generally annoying
19:23:32 <ais523> I mean, if someone came in here and ended all their sentences with !, we'd get annoyed quickly
19:23:33 <alise> ais523: No they're not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:23:39 <ais523> an interrobang is just another sort of exclamation
19:23:40 <alise> Would we! I don't think we would!
19:23:45 <alise> I think we would like it!
19:24:03 <ais523> alise: it's getting on my nerves already...
19:24:19 <alise> Okay, I'll stop now.
19:24:33 <Vorpal> ais523, yes. But there are reasons to use it. Like: "wow, some quick calculation shows that that the probability for that coincidence is 1 of 10^23!" or similar
19:24:52 <ais523> no, that implies 10 to the 23 factorial to me
19:27:03 <alise> Cool, the VM uses 100% of a CPU for its infinite loop.
19:29:46 <alise> Gah, how can it segfault?
19:29:52 <alise> m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];
19:29:55 <alise> It's all unsigned.
19:29:59 <alise> Oh wait, I said a 16-bit machine. Heh.
19:30:13 <alise> And coded my thing wrong.
19:32:17 <alise> Blah, cpressey, you implement this machine.
19:34:10 <alise> And tell me why chr(x&256) + chr(x>>8) doesn't work.
19:34:37 <alise> & 255 it should be!
19:35:02 <alise> Wait, this depends on endianness.
19:35:16 <alise> cpressey: RELIEVE THE PAIN
19:35:27 * Sgeo puts alise to sleep
19:35:28 <cpressey> Sorry, was away, just came back.
19:35:30 <alise> cpressey: BUT IT'S A LOW-LEVEL VM MACHINE THING
19:35:41 <Sgeo> Use Forth for low-level stuff!
19:36:11 <cpressey> Haskell first. THEN C. That's my opinion, anyway, not that I always follow it.
19:37:14 <alise> cpressey: Okay. Do it in Haskell then.
19:39:28 <Sgeo> Look at his smallness
19:39:33 <Sgeo> Compared to my tallness
19:39:37 <Sgeo> My porcelain doll-ness
19:39:45 <Sgeo> My port-in-a-squall-ness
19:39:48 <cpressey> < ais523> I mean, I reimplemented awk in about 10 lines for a quick hack this mornign
19:40:07 <ais523> but I cheated and used a2p
19:40:17 <Sgeo> My Kids-in-the-Hall-ness / My Pink-Floyd's-"The-Wall"-ness / My just all in all-ness
19:40:21 <ais523> the other lines were working around bugs in a2p
19:40:24 <Sgeo> My wonderful me-ness
19:40:28 <Sgeo> My hammer the pe---
19:40:50 <Sgeo> Sorry about spamminess
19:42:16 <Vorpal> <ais523> no, that implies 10 to the 23 factorial to me <-- hm?
19:42:48 <Vorpal> ais523, "1 out of 10^23" means "pretty unlikely" to me in that context
19:43:18 <alise> Vorpal demonstrates new heights of reading comprehension.
19:43:23 <alise> He could get a Ph.D. in it at this rate.
19:43:59 <cpressey> Sgeo: You are forgiven. But only if you are drunk.
19:44:27 <cpressey> OK, I'll let "tired" go. THIS time.
19:45:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:45:22 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, now I get what he meant
19:45:34 <Vorpal> anyway, my point was "!" is useful in some cases
19:45:36 <cpressey> (for something as simple and array-y as this)
19:45:52 <fizzie> Yes, it's useful if you want to speak about fractionals.
19:45:57 <Vorpal> I should make an esolang that uses interrobang in it's syntax...
19:46:22 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:46:35 <fizzie> Remember to make it do some sort of combination of ? and !.
19:46:57 <Sgeo> Please don't make it isomorphic (if that's the term) to BF
19:47:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, or maybe it should be like intercals over-strike stuff
19:47:26 <alise> m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];
19:47:34 <alise> 16-bit values, full 16-bit memory
19:47:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in either the unicode code point, or !<backspace>? are allowed
19:47:40 <alise> it loads a raw memory image
19:47:43 <alise> (two bytes to the value)
19:47:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, like it does for .<backspace>"
19:47:50 <alise> initial m[0] is assigned by the memory file
19:48:13 <alise> a program that takes a bunch of integers separated by whitespace and spits out a \0-padded memory image plus the first value being "1" to point to the first number entered would be cool too
19:48:19 <alise> (to pave the way for an assembler)
19:48:51 <alise> Vorpal: ITRALCEN or whatever it was called was going to use interrobang for its metaevaluation stuff.
19:48:58 <alise> ^scramble INTERCAL
19:49:19 <alise> of course, I never actually ended up doing it.
19:49:28 <alise> almost all the INTERCAL language was implemented using it
19:49:31 <Vorpal> alise, ah, right, it was you who made the idea up
19:49:46 <alise> it was going to accept ?<backspace>! too
19:49:48 <cpressey> alise: http://pastie.org/1138303
19:50:02 <alise> cpressey: Well /that/ bit is the easy part.
19:50:31 -!- nooga has joined.
19:50:43 <nooga> i'm having wild problems with restoring ext3 partition
19:50:54 <cpressey> Vorpal: Haskell lost. Then Python lost.
19:51:07 <cpressey> Shoulda done it in Falcon or R!
19:51:09 -!- derdon has joined.
19:51:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, and the problem you are trying to solve is?
19:51:25 <nooga> lua is nice, besides the syntax
19:51:33 <alise> Vorpal is doing a great imitation of ignoring me while proving he isn't
19:51:38 <nooga> it looks like pascalified javascript
19:52:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Damn, I would have to look up how they do arrays.
19:52:44 <Vorpal> alise, um? am I ignoring you?
19:52:56 <cpressey> I picked Lua because I knew I could just start using m as if it was an array, and it would be.
19:53:27 <alise> Vorpal: No, but you asked what cpressey was doing just after I FORCED him to do it. (Well, not exactly that.)
19:54:10 <Vorpal> alise, I was wondering what the goal of the program was. That function didn't look like it was a complete program to me
19:54:34 <alise> It's called an esolang.
19:54:37 <cpressey> Vorpal: It's alise's putative successor to ByteByteJump.
19:54:40 <fizzie> The definedness of "m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];" looks unclear, but perhaps this was already spoken about (I'm not really following the discussion here).
19:54:45 <alise> Although his program is, uh, incomplete.
19:54:51 <alise> fizzie: Huh, surely /that/'s ok?
19:55:00 <fizzie> If m[0] == 0, especially.
19:55:00 <alise> Wait, why would it not be?
19:55:10 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. No input or output of any kind. Pretty useless as it is. Which is why I asked
19:55:27 <alise> Vorpal: It's a reference implementation.
19:55:45 <cpressey> I coded the /interesting/ part of the semantics.
19:55:49 <alise> I'm basically trying to usurp BytePusher in awesomeness.
19:56:23 <alise> A B means "*A = *B; jump to address B"
19:57:44 -!- tombom has joined.
19:57:52 <Vorpal> alise, is there any IO or such (possibly by using memory mapped IO registers or similar)?
19:58:17 <alise> Vorpal: In a computer, yes. In the architecture, no.
19:58:25 <alise> Oh, and memory location 0 is the program counter, of course.
19:58:42 <alise> Jumping to 0 is *quite* fun, in the "HOW DOES THIS WORK" sense.
19:58:48 <Vorpal> alise, and this is not a computerish implementation?
19:58:51 <alise> The first operand of your first instruction becomes a second one.
19:58:55 <alise> Vorpal: It's just the basis for one.
19:59:12 <alise> The actual computer will be like BytePusher but more awesome. A proper sound chip rather than just raw PCM.
19:59:19 <alise> Synthesiser, that is.
19:59:26 <alise> All done memory-mapped, naturally.
19:59:31 <Vorpal> alise, does the architecture reserve some specific memory addresses for such usage? To prevent a situation where different implementations put them in completely different areas
19:59:54 <alise> No. ARM and Z80 don't tell you what the computer should look like either.
20:00:03 <alise> They're ISAs; the rest is up to the computer architecture.
20:00:23 <Vorpal> hm. Are you going to define such an architecture as well?
20:00:38 <fizzie> alise: I'm not even sure about the "m[m[0]] = x;" part. There's no additional sequence points, and if m[0] == 0, you have a write to m[0], and a read from m[0], and you're only allowed to read the previous value "only to determine the value to be stored", which doesn't seem to be the case here. I don't think there's any rule that'd let you apply any "but m[0] *must* be read before the m[m[0]] write can know where it's writing to"; but there's a horribly long th
20:00:39 <fizzie> read about these and related points in comp.lang.c.
20:00:43 <alise> <alise> The actual computer will be like BytePusher but more awesome. A proper sound chip rather than just raw PCM.
20:00:43 <alise> <alise> Synthesiser, that is.
20:00:43 <alise> <alise> All done memory-mapped, naturally.
20:00:44 <fizzie> (Adding the "= m[m[0]+1]" bit makes it even less clear, though.)
20:01:17 <alise> It's not a big deal, I can fix it.
20:01:27 <alise> Definitely want an in-memory PC though.
20:01:47 <alise> "0 X" is an unconditional jump to X. :-)
20:02:01 <alise> since *X gets put in the program counter, but then it gets set to X
20:02:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, in practise it seems tricky to be able to resolve the location of m[m[0]] before reading m[0]
20:02:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, well, that's you using logic again.
20:02:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, but with the = m[m[0]+1] it is harder to know
20:03:29 <alise> fizzie: m[m[0]] is just **m.
20:03:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, could have memory doing strange things like erasing m[m[0]] while reading m[m[0]+1]. For some sort of arcane memory
20:03:33 <alise> Which I'm pretty sure is valid, you know.
20:03:42 <alise> Which I guess is more iffy.
20:03:44 <Vorpal> flash? Though I doubt anyone uses that for main memory
20:03:51 <alise> But what if m is in 0? :-)
20:04:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, yeah, presumably NOR then
20:04:14 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:04:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, would be worse if NAND
20:04:27 <cpressey> And take a lot of power, relatively speaking
20:04:33 <Vorpal> in fact I can't see how NAND could even work for it
20:04:39 -!- derdon has joined.
20:06:03 <Vorpal> hm I wonder what type of microprocessor is used in a normal harddrive...
20:06:47 <Sgeo> Would Marilyn vos Savant be a good fit for this channel?
20:06:50 <Sgeo> Hypothetically?
20:07:17 -!- augur has joined.
20:08:00 <Vorpal> hm I think my desktop has at least 5 processor cores, considering CPU, GPU, two harddrives, one dvd and one sound card. GPU probably consists of more than one in reality
20:08:21 <alise> probably because of her surname :)
20:08:28 <Vorpal> (I know the sound card has a DSP, it's a SB Live 5.1 with that EMU10k DSP thingy)
20:09:11 <cpressey> Sgeo: ... are you *sure* you're not drunk?
20:09:28 <alise> Can she even program?
20:09:36 <Sgeo> Unless someone drugged me with alcohol...
20:09:40 <alise> Has she done anything other than popularising Monty Hall and other simple problems and, at one point, having a very high IQ?
20:09:41 <cpressey> "A few months after the announcement by Andrew Wiles that he had proved Fermat's Last Theorem, vos Savant published her book The World's Most Famous Math Problem in October 1993.[15] The book surveys the history of Fermat's last theorem as well as other mathematical mysteries. Controversy came from the book's criticism of Wiles' proof; vos Savant was accused of misunderstanding mathematical induction, proof by contradiction,
20:10:22 <Sgeo> Wait, was that the incorrect announcement, or the correct one?
20:10:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what about other drugs than alcohol then?
20:10:35 <cpressey> "Her assertion that Wiles' proof should be rejected for its use of non-Euclidean geometry was especially contested."
20:10:47 <Sgeo> Vorpal, other drugs wouldn't make me drunk
20:10:53 <alise> cpressey: hahaahahaha
20:11:05 <alise> Vorpal: no, this is definitely alcohol or nothing
20:11:17 <alise> although at this level Sgeo should be having trouble typing with accuracy
20:11:26 <alise> also, 1993 would be the original
20:11:29 <alise> but clearly her criticism is bullshit
20:11:53 <Sgeo> I remember when a girl IMed me with "I
20:12:11 <alise> <Sgeo> What if Marilyn von Savant is actually ALL OF US... man...
20:12:20 <alise> [universe changes]
20:12:27 <alise> <Sgeo> WHY ARE THE WALLS BREATHING I BLAME WHOEVER DEVELOPS ACTIVEWORLDS
20:12:37 <alise> [universe changes]
20:13:45 <Sgeo> alise, stage 101 is fun
20:13:50 <alise> Sgeo: stop cheating
20:13:54 <Vorpal> alise, yeah those are different drugs
20:14:04 <alise> Vorpal: CONGRATULATIONS YOU GOT THE JOKE
20:14:07 <fizzie> Oh, you've been dot-act-2-ing again?
20:14:10 <Sgeo> alise, is it cheating if the code is given in the instructions?
20:14:22 <alise> Sgeo: what instructions?
20:14:44 <Sgeo> Use Google Translate
20:15:00 <Sgeo> "The password "086-754" to enter, can play a bonus stage."
20:15:13 <alise> Complete 100 to get it
20:15:29 <alise> It's 101-108 for a reason! :|
20:15:32 <Vorpal> alise, but for all I know there could be some drug other than alcohol that gives similar symptoms. I mean, the phase-space of possible drugs is hardly small enough to be completely explored.
20:15:41 <fizzie> Gah, I can't recall how many stages I cleared; just that it was >90, <100.
20:15:44 <Sgeo> alise, when I type in the code, I don't see 1-100 in the list
20:15:58 <alise> Vorpal: afaik alcohol is fairly unique in its effects
20:16:04 <alise> Sgeo: yes, but they come after 100, obviously
20:16:08 <alise> fizzie: how do you do 55?
20:16:13 <alise> I cannot figure it out.
20:16:51 <Vorpal> alise, is it proven that no future drug could give similar effects? Maybe some mad scientist gave Sgeo a sample of a new drug to test it out on him!
20:17:04 <fizzie> alise: Do you have that 1-100 code somewhere? I don't think I can manage to do 1-54 to see 55 for you.
20:17:16 <alise> fizzie: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough
20:17:19 <alise> has codes for every level
20:17:32 <fizzie> At least I dug it out of the swf myself back then. :p
20:17:35 <cpressey> Alcohol is chemically simpler than most drugs. From what I understand, it does what it does because your brain is busy "digesting" it.
20:18:12 <cpressey> As opposed to, say, psychoactives which bind to various neural receptors.
20:19:15 <cpressey> So, fwiw, I think it would be hard to come up with an "alcohol-alike" drug
20:19:34 <fizzie> alise: IIRC, you just need to hit the middle one of the three green blocks on the left, and keep pressing right; it'll keep flipping around, but it'll bounce from the above/below greens so that you can catch the blue.
20:20:12 <Sgeo> 101 is really, really fun
20:20:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, btw I remember a funny video showing the effects of various drugs and driving. (not using actual drugs of course)
20:20:42 <fizzie> It might take a few tries to work out right, it's not exactly a very straight-forward thing.
20:20:44 <Vorpal> no clue where it was I saw it
20:20:50 <Sgeo> And the only bonus level that I solved, iirc
20:21:02 <alise> Vorpal: I know which one you're talking about.
20:21:05 <alise> Relatively amusing.
20:21:15 <Vorpal> alise, iirc lsd+driving was hilarious
20:21:22 <Vorpal> alise, hm I think the video was in German?
20:22:23 <alise> fizzie: which is the middle one?
20:23:46 <Sgeo> I _think_ I did 105
20:24:39 <Vorpal> alise, cpressey: found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHDeMMzkHrI
20:25:01 <Sgeo> 107 is just a race against the clock
20:25:33 <fizzie> "More specifically, ethanol acts in the central nervous system by binding to the GABA-A receptor, increasing the effects of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA (i.e. it is a positive allosteric modulator)[68]."
20:26:30 <nooga> lsd+driving is suicide
20:26:48 <Sgeo> 108 is a tricky race against thge clock
20:27:08 <Vorpal> nooga, most likely every one of those is suicide
20:27:31 <nooga> marijuana is harmless i think
20:27:37 <nooga> when it comes to driving
20:27:47 <alise> cannabis probably has the least effect
20:27:51 <alise> but then it has the least effect of everything
20:27:53 <Vorpal> nooga, I don't think it was in the video though? Unless it's German name is very different
20:28:06 <alise> Well, the video isn't exactly true to real life...
20:28:16 <alise> I don't think the primary effect of LSD is seeing a creepy bunny.
20:28:17 <Vorpal> alise, it was supposed to be funny
20:28:48 <nooga> on lsd you would probably love the car you're driving and feel strong emmotional connection to the trees standing by the road
20:28:58 <Vorpal> alise, with "those" in "<Vorpal> nooga, most likely every one of those is suicide" I was referring to those in the video though
20:29:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Haschisch" is second one in the video.
20:29:19 <alise> nooga: at a regular dose isn't it a bit arguable whether you'd recognise them as trees or not?
20:29:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that same as marijuana ?
20:29:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't speak German
20:29:38 <nooga> and then comes the pink-blue, glowing squirrelephant that pursues you
20:29:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the same as en:hashish, which is same stuff in a bit different form.
20:30:03 <Sgeo> alise, stage 101
20:30:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't say I'm a drug expert
20:30:29 <alise> Sgeo: unlike you i wish to play the game in order from start to finish
20:30:53 <Sgeo> But I don't think 101 is after the finish
20:31:06 <fizzie> 101 typically comes after 100.
20:31:24 <fizzie> Even if it's technically speaking in a different list.
20:32:14 <fizzie> I'd like to see a changelog between 1.01 and 1.10, though.
20:33:15 <alise> dot action 2 1.10 :D
20:33:32 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 22:56:25] <fizzie> That http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ link is to version 1.01; the original you pasted -- http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf -- is 1.10.
20:33:44 <fizzie> There were two versions at least then.
20:34:03 <alise> I've been playing 1.01.
20:35:01 <fizzie> Oh, right, we had a bit of a competition going on with oklopol.
20:36:10 <fizzie> I gave up at level 93, oklopol went on at least up to 97.
20:36:59 <fizzie> (At least 98, it seems.)
20:40:40 <alise> I did 57 with 1 TIME left. Fuck yeah.
20:40:47 <alise> fizzie: did we ever figure out how long a TIME was?
20:41:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure; I remember color-picking and figuring out the formula for the background RGB color.
20:42:05 <alise> But there are many.
20:42:44 <fizzie> Based on a quick manual check, TIME seems to be decremented approximately at a rate of 4 units/second.
20:42:51 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:44:52 <Sgeo> I actually died on 101 this time
20:47:25 <Sgeo> fizzie, try 101-108?
20:49:24 <alise> <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101
20:51:02 <alise> fizzie: on stage 58, do you know how to avoid dying on the very last bit?
20:51:05 <alise> if you space you die
20:51:10 <alise> if you wait you fall and die
20:59:08 <fizzie> Oh, I'm too late, then.
20:59:43 <fizzie> And I've tried the 101-108 levels back then, too.
21:02:14 <Sgeo> alise, someone killed my ghost
21:05:53 <fizzie> What I most hate in the acted-on dots part twain is the time-limited levels. (Okay, all of them are time-limited theoretically speaking, but those where the main challenge comes from the time limit. I just tried 60 for a lark, and ran out of time on the last "terrace" there, even though I didn't do any obvious time-wasting on the way there.
21:05:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:05:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:07:55 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:08:01 <alise> fizzie: 59 is evil
21:08:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:08:52 <alise> fizzie: Dot Action 2 is even more than nintendo hard :)
21:09:57 <Sgeo> It's not IWTBTG levels
21:10:25 -!- comex has changed nick to comjex.
21:10:34 <fizzie> Says you, who hasn't even played all 100 levels yet.
21:10:53 <alise> Just not in order.
21:11:01 <alise> Or did you mean Sgeo?
21:11:47 <pikhq> Y'know, I think I hate just about everything about the UI of video game emulators these days.
21:12:12 <pikhq> And ROM management tools.
21:12:20 <pikhq> Especially in their treatment of files.
21:12:44 * Sgeo WTFs at a non-programmer using the word "callbacks"
21:13:15 <alise> pikhq: Play Dot Action 2. No other games are necessary.
21:13:44 * Sgeo growls at stage 35
21:14:06 <Sgeo> It's easy, just the damn time limit
21:15:00 <alise> Sgeo: Ha, you are so pitiful!
21:15:03 <pikhq> Here's the common ROM handling format:
21:15:27 <pikhq> foo.ext. A dump of the actual contents of the ROM chip.
21:15:28 <alise> fizzie: WHAT THE FUCK AT 60
21:16:01 <pikhq> Metadata? Bah. Any hints about what hardware is needed to run it? Baaaah. Unreliable heuristics instead!
21:16:07 <alise> fizzie: How do you do it???
21:16:45 <pikhq> That last bit is mostly an issue for systems such as the NES and SNES where the cartridge could actually have addon hardware hooked into the system.
21:17:21 <pikhq> (NES with its memory mappers, the SNES with its memory mappers and the ability to have some other processor run on the main bus in tandem with the main processor)
21:18:24 <cpressey> < Sgeo> alise, someone killed my ghost
21:18:55 <alise> fizzie: HOW DO YOU DO 60
21:19:31 <pikhq> Y'know what? I should write frontends to a bunch of (best available free) emulators. Just to get it not awful.
21:19:38 <pikhq> And some sort of ROM management tool.
21:19:38 <Sgeo> alise, you wanna watch on FooTV?
21:19:47 <pikhq> Aaaaaand define a nice metadata format.
21:20:04 <alise> Sgeo: no, i hate crawl
21:21:02 <fizzie> I tried 60, and like I said, couldn't quite make it on time. But I'm bad at swimming upwards. Can't recall if there was any tricks from the previous playthrough.
21:21:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:25 <pikhq> Also: ROM patching is absolutely completely and utterly bonkers.
21:21:40 <Sgeo> alise, but you downloaded it recently!
21:21:43 <Sgeo> And played with it!
21:22:03 <Sgeo> You didn't love pitting monsters against eachother? ;)
21:22:17 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:22:17 <alise> that was fun, and why did you say ";)"
21:22:21 <alise> but that wasn't playing crawl
21:22:22 -!- wareya has joined.
21:22:29 <cpressey> pikhq: I'd be happy if people just stopped calling things that clearly came on a floppy, "ROMs".
21:22:51 <cpressey> Completely diferent problem, of course.
21:22:57 <alise> fizzie: HOW DO YU DO 60 RTJHO
21:23:08 <pikhq> Oh, also. I would *love* to punch whoever is responsible for "plugins" on emulators for more recent systems.
21:23:13 <pikhq> THEY DONT FUCKING WORK.
21:23:29 <fizzie> cpressey: Download your C64 ROMs here! (No, not the rom files vice/any-other-emulator needs.)
21:25:38 <alise> fizzie: I'm actually having trouble thinking of levels more demented than DA2's, which is a problem, as I'd quite like to create DSDE.
21:25:52 -!- alise has left (?).
21:25:55 -!- alise has joined.
21:26:00 <alise> (Dot Super Death Edition.)
21:26:27 <alise> I hereby employ pikhq to come up with a dodgy half-phonetic-English-kana, one-or-two-kanji-words version of that title.
21:26:45 <alise> Dottu SUPER DEATH: edition!
21:26:51 <alise> Dottu edition: SUPER DEATH!
21:27:09 <Sgeo> alise, is 37 a race against the clock?
21:27:11 <Sgeo> I can't tell yet
21:28:39 <pikhq> alise: Sooo.... 点新死エディション?
21:29:12 <alise> "Explore new death point"
21:30:04 <alise> Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous.
21:30:05 <pikhq> ("ten shin shi edishon" in Hepburn, "ten sin si etìīsiȳon" in craziness)
21:30:30 <alise> pikhq: What does it translate literally as?
21:30:41 <pikhq> alise: Dot new death edition.
21:31:14 <pikhq> 新, "new", was commonly used in the names of games where "Super" was in the US.
21:31:19 <pikhq> And the rest of the world.
21:31:52 <pikhq> cpressey: No, think about games on the SNES.
21:31:55 <alise> There is a New Super Mario Brothers.
21:32:02 <alise> So is it New New Mario Brothers in Japanese?
21:32:10 <pikhq> alise: No, it was New Super Mario Brothers.
21:32:17 <alise> pikhq: Also, dot? Not dottu? :-(
21:32:45 <pikhq> alise: "Dottu" would more normally be romanised as "dottsu".
21:33:23 <alise> pikhq: How can the Japanese pronounce dot without tu after it?!
21:33:49 <pikhq> alise: They can't.
21:34:02 <pikhq> Well, they can do "dotto".
21:34:13 <pikhq> Which is how it would end up in bastardised English.
21:34:15 <Vorpal> <alise> Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. <-- uh... What other characters do you think look dangerous? So we can have something to compare with
21:34:26 <alise> pikhq: So how come you detranslated it as "dot"? :'(
21:34:27 <pikhq> alise: Would you like it to just be bastardised English?
21:34:34 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
21:34:41 <alise> <pikhq> ("ten shin shi edishon" in Hepburn, "ten sin si etìīsiȳon" in craziness) ;; Wait, I see no japanised "dot" here.
21:35:03 <pikhq> alise: Japanese for dot.
21:35:13 <alise> Right, but what is it in ludicrous English kana? :P
21:35:18 <pikhq> ドット・スーパ・デース・エディション
21:35:35 <pikhq> "Dotto suupa deesu edishon".
21:37:04 <pikhq> Or "tò'to sūhå tềsu etèīsiȳon".
21:37:23 <alise> So then this is "dotto new death edishon"?
21:37:26 <pikhq> "tò'to sûhå tềsu etèīsiȳon".
21:37:36 <alise> My game's new title
21:37:48 <alise> Isn't that one of the numbers there?
21:37:57 <fizzie> Gah, your "discussion" (or the "dotto" part, anyway) made the Tenshi ni Narumon opening theme start to play in my head. "Thanks."
21:38:33 <Sgeo> Had I not died on the jump, I would only have had 76 time to do that maze
21:38:36 <Sgeo> Time may be a factor
21:38:52 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:39:30 <pikhq> 一二三四五六七八九十 There's the numbers 1 through ten.
21:39:50 <alise> Ah. Just looked similar, then.
21:39:59 <alise> pikhq: Hey, it's uppercase Xi. :P
21:40:02 <pikhq> (iti ni san yon kò roku siti hati kiȳû sìȳû)
21:41:12 <pikhq> That is not normally used.
21:41:16 <alise> pikhq: So is "ドット新死エディション" actually comprehensible to your average Japanese-speaker?
21:41:19 <alise> Also, what? They just ignore zero?
21:41:23 <alise> Japanese mathematics fuck yeah.
21:41:27 <pikhq> alise: And no, they don't ignore zero.
21:41:31 <alise> pikhq: Even "edishon"?
21:41:35 <pikhq> They use Arabic numerals.
21:42:19 <pikhq> Using the kanji for the numbers is a bit like spelling it out in English.
21:43:12 <pikhq> alise: Japanese has a lot of bastardised English in it.
21:47:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why did you watch that at all?
21:47:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
21:48:04 <alise> <Vorpal> <alise> Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. <-- uh... What other characters do you think look dangerous? So we can have something to compare with
21:48:14 <alise> it's for the lava/electric fence (TOTALLY LAVA)
21:48:33 <Vorpal> alise, and ! is in use? Or not wide enough?
21:48:46 <alise> so ! doesn't really look right
21:48:53 <alise> ais523: haha, i think i'd prefer to keep it ascii :)
21:49:07 <ais523> hmm, aren't really many choices in ASCII
21:49:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: skull and crossbones
21:49:22 <Vorpal> alise, hm... X does look somewhat dangerous. # doesn't.
21:49:27 <Vorpal> can't think of any other char
21:49:33 <alise> Vorpal: # is the walls
21:49:35 <ais523> # is typical for walls, on ASCII maps
21:49:37 <alise> X looks a bit like walls, though...
21:49:47 <ais523> ~ works for liquids, like lava
21:50:00 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't look very dangerous
21:50:11 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't # corridor in nethack?
21:50:16 <ais523> spiky, and is used for traps in roguelikes
21:50:25 <ais523> Vorpal: for lots of things, including corridors
21:50:40 <alise> ais523: it's really an electric fence
21:50:44 <alise> (it keeps its shape and can stand alone)
21:50:54 <alise> you often get e.g. T shapes, meaning ^ would look a bit strange
21:50:59 <ais523> I've used - for fences before
21:51:05 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:51:08 <ais523> but that would look even stranger for a T shape
21:51:14 <Vorpal> alise, what about |-|-|-|-|-| ? Fence posts
21:51:23 <alise> Vorpal: err, one character
21:51:31 <alise> although it's a bit ambiguous
21:51:39 <alise> I still need to figure out ones for green (flips the level upside down)
21:51:43 <alise> and red (gives you fence protection)
21:51:47 <alise> % would be good for green
21:51:48 <Vorpal> alise, I was just about to say that % looks editable!
21:51:53 <alise> it looks like flipping, somehow
21:52:16 <Vorpal> alise, should be "eatable" really
21:52:41 <alise> not sure what evil-protection should be
21:52:49 <alise> $? it is somewhat valuable, I guess, but that seems strange.
21:53:35 <Vorpal> alise, what about ! like nethack potion
21:53:49 <Vorpal> special effect for some time and such
21:53:53 <cpressey> You know what would be useful? If the OS could send a signal to a process meaning "Please reduce your memory consumption".
21:54:12 <alise> Vorpal: they're full block-width too
21:54:18 <alise> i.e. they all take up as much space as a #
21:54:22 <alise> just different colours
21:54:28 <Vorpal> alise, so monospace font?
21:54:36 <Vorpal> alise, and @ should be the player I think
21:54:46 -!- Leonidas_ has joined.
21:54:46 <Vorpal> yes I know I'm nethack influenced here
21:54:56 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas.
21:55:06 <alise> Vorpal: yes, I thought that, but I realised that it can't be
21:55:18 <alise> you can start in mid-air or on the ground
21:55:25 <alise> is this standing on the ground
21:55:29 <alise> or falling from the top of that cell on to the ground?
21:55:33 <alise> maybe it is obvious? but
21:55:35 <cpressey> < Vorpal> alise, so monospace font?
21:55:41 <alise> here you want to be falling on to the X at the start
21:55:50 <Vorpal> alise, what was # and X?
21:55:53 <alise> so I think I'll have to specify it some other way
21:55:59 <Vorpal> alise, they both look pretty solid
21:56:02 <alise> Vorpal: # is wall/ground/floor/whatever, X is evil electric fence
21:56:06 <alise> solid, sure, but deadly
21:56:17 <alise> also, it's hollow if you have ZET
21:56:24 <alise> which you get from red blocks for a certain amount of time
21:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, starting on top of one at the beginning of a level sounds very evil
21:57:18 <cpressey> alise: How big is a Dot Action playfield, in grid cells?
21:57:27 <alise> Vorpal: well, you start falling on one
21:57:34 <alise> e.g. the one with 1 time
21:57:37 <Sgeo> Just move right or whatever
21:57:38 <alise> or was it 0 time, i forget
21:57:43 <alise> 1 time = 1/4 second
21:57:48 <alise> 0 time = game ends as soon as it starts
21:57:54 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, unrealistic physics for in-air movement
21:57:57 <Sgeo> alise, in the list, the time is listed
21:58:03 <Vorpal> most platformers have that
21:58:08 <alise> (you have to press jump and right, if you hit off the ceiling you fall quicker)
21:58:12 <alise> (making you fall on to the block in time)
21:58:15 <alise> cpressey: Pretty big
21:58:18 <alise> cpressey: Bigger than 80x24
21:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, there's no TV Tropes drinking game for Turkish Star Wars.
21:59:13 <Vorpal> alise, anyway you said it was unclear if you stand on ground or are falling from top of tile?
21:59:26 <Vorpal> alise, does that mean the player is smaller than a tile?
21:59:33 <alise> exactly one tile big
21:59:36 <alise> but he can be on half a tile
21:59:45 <Vorpal> alise, and half another?
21:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Take a sip every time the Indiana Jones theme plays or the hero attacks someone by bouncing on a trampoline."
21:59:53 <alise> you could put it one tile up and say it's always on the ground
21:59:56 <alise> to the same effect, probably
22:00:01 <alise> what if there's another square there
22:00:01 <Vorpal> alise, thus everything is in fact 2x2 tiles big?
22:00:25 <Sgeo> alise, time is most certainly a factor in 37
22:00:32 <alise> Vorpal: he can be on 1/whateverth of a tile too
22:00:37 <alise> Sgeo: only if you suck
22:00:42 <alise> Vorpal: (however pixels high he is)
22:00:47 <alise> Vorpal: continuous movement
22:00:47 <Vorpal> alise, hard to translate to ascii that
22:01:01 <alise> but he can only start in one tile, i think
22:01:12 <Vorpal> alise, still rather bad
22:01:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There's Turkish Star Trek!
22:01:31 <alise> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7185067049150068960
22:01:56 <alise> Funky opening music.
22:01:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it has Mr. Spak
22:02:01 <Vorpal> alise, with unicode there is probably some symbol that exists for several different "placements" in a char. But since you wanted ASCII only...
22:02:08 <alise> "Overview: This Turkish version of Star Trek is a complete rip off of the original Star Trek series, only the main character in this is a lecherous drunk accompanied by an entire soundboard of wacky effects. Everything about this film is below Z-grade."
22:02:27 <alise> Vorpal: I'm just going to have START x y or something, probably.
22:02:34 <Vorpal> alise, oh it is not just a texted version? But a rip-off?
22:02:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And it uses clips too, apparently.
22:02:45 <alise> same with Turkish Star Wars
22:02:52 <alise> they both use /clips from the original/, too
22:02:53 <cpressey> alise: I was thinking this would be a good candidate for a C64 game, with a sprite for the player. You could do an 80x50 playfield if your player sprite was really tiny (like, 2 pixels square.)
22:03:05 <alise> after the star trek theme and their own crazy theme
22:03:08 <alise> they do the star trek theme again
22:03:22 <alise> cpressey: That would be awesome.
22:03:34 <alise> The Captain's logbook. Star-date blah blah.
22:03:40 <Vorpal> alise, which star trek theme?
22:03:44 <Leonidas> Phantom_Hoover: I can't remember being on the payroll
22:03:49 <alise> Ooh-aaaaah oh oh oh oh oh aaaaaaaah
22:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> In what little backstory TSW has, I gather that the world has been blown up several times.
22:03:55 <alise> Oh oh ohhhh aaaaah aah ahah ah ah ahohhhh
22:04:04 <alise> Hmm, that sounds inappropriate over IRC.
22:04:07 <Vorpal> alise, I'm trying to remember the TOS theme... was ages ago I watched non-movie TOS
22:04:15 <alise> Vorpal: Click the video and hear
22:04:23 <alise> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7185067049150068960
22:04:27 <alise> Hope you have a gvideo-download
22:04:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um the theme I meant
22:05:04 <alise> Vorpal: there were 3 versions
22:05:17 <alise> two with crazy female vocals (one with them drowning out everything else)
22:05:21 <alise> (the other with it mixed in)
22:05:24 <alise> one without (series 1)
22:05:37 <alise> "Does it bother you, that I have a different structure than human, Doc?" -- Mr. Spak
22:05:56 <alise> "Mr. Spock please don't be upset. We appreciate that you Vulcans are superior species."
22:05:57 <Vorpal> this one had female voices
22:06:01 <Vorpal> which don't remember at all
22:06:14 <alise> "Upset? Probably, you forgot that such an illogical emotion does not exist on us."
22:06:52 <Vorpal> alise, when did they use which theme?
22:06:53 <alise> this has just as good writing as TOS :-)
22:07:04 <alise> Vorpal: 1 was manly and unfeminine
22:07:10 <alise> i forget the ordering of the mixed in / drowning one
22:07:16 <alise> i think 3 is the one that had it drowning out everything else creepily
22:07:25 <alise> HAHAHAH @ THE TRANSPORTER GRAPHICS
22:07:33 <Vorpal> alise, but when did they use them?
22:07:39 <Vorpal> alise, for mirror universe and such?
22:07:42 <alise> Vorpal: the three series of TOS
22:07:48 <alise> each had a different variation on the theme
22:07:54 <alise> no female, female mixed in, female drowned out
22:07:58 <alise> i forget the ordering of the latter two
22:07:59 <Vorpal> alise, god I had forgotten how long TOS ran
22:08:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: dunno
22:08:04 <alise> Vorpal: yes, not long :P
22:08:17 <alise> but just long enough for it to be syndicated striped
22:08:18 <alise> which was vital for TNG
22:08:23 <alise> vital for TOS' popularity
22:08:40 <Vorpal> <alise> but just long enough for it to be syndicated striped <-- eh?
22:08:53 <Vorpal> I understood each word but wtf is "syndicated striped"
22:09:11 <alise> striped = one episode a day
22:09:33 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripping_(television)
22:09:41 <Vorpal> alise, ah I found the original without vocals
22:10:02 <Vorpal> alise, I much prefer the TNG music.
22:10:55 <alise> Vorpal: speaking of swapping music for mirror universe episodes
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4nceCmigAM ;; normal Enterprise theme
22:11:06 <Vorpal> alise, which enterprise?
22:11:07 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfbsZRbwbJ4 ;; "In a Mirror, Darkly" theme
22:11:16 <Vorpal> alise, as in the last one?
22:11:17 <alise> Star Trek: Enterprise
22:11:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The series?
22:11:32 <alise> "In a Mirror, Darkly" was actually good, though.
22:11:37 <Vorpal> alise, oh wasn't that very un-spacy music too? guitar iirc?
22:11:52 <alise> Vorpal: Yes. But not the mirror universe one.
22:11:54 <Vorpal> don't think I watched any of the mirror universe
22:12:00 <alise> Only two episodes.
22:12:04 <Vorpal> alise, will download once I finished watching TNG intro
22:12:06 <alise> No overlapping, either, just one ship.
22:12:07 <pikhq> alise: The last season was about where it became watchable.
22:12:16 <alise> The whole two-parter took place in the mirror universe.
22:12:32 <alise> And it didn't end with a revolution.
22:12:34 <Vorpal> [download] 1.5% of 23.01M at 29.61k/s ETA 13:03
22:12:35 <pikhq> Yes, it got canceled just as it improved.
22:12:41 <Vorpal> alise, I will watch. In a while
22:12:52 <alise> Vorpal: might want to watch both to see the contrst
22:12:56 <pikhq> The normal theme was still god-awful.
22:13:02 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but look at the dl speed
22:13:03 <alise> they replaced all the historical exploration scenes with warfare :)
22:13:11 <Vorpal> alise, it seems that HD download slower than smaller ones
22:13:21 <Vorpal> the TNG one was original-size youtube
22:13:28 <alise> I loved the scene of Cochrane shooting the Vulcan. Nice teaser.
22:13:30 <Vorpal> Downloaded at 200 kB/s
22:13:53 <alise> pikhq: It tried a bit too hard to be retro.
22:14:04 <alise> Prime directive? Never heard of it.
22:14:17 <alise> Stardate? Naw, let's just use Earth years. Because only FEDERATIONS make space-wise decisions!
22:14:32 <pikhq> alise: Star Trek TOS did not need a prequel. It really didn't.
22:14:41 <pikhq> It needed a sequel that completely forgot about Voyager.
22:14:47 <alise> Yes; I dislike the idea of an Enterprise-pre-Enterprise.
22:15:03 <alise> pikhq: I'd like to see a sequel set a long time after Voyager.
22:15:20 <alise> It'll require less anal clinching to canon.
22:15:33 <pikhq> alise: That would be quite nice.
22:15:51 <pikhq> I'd just like a sequel that is written well.
22:16:09 <alise> pikhq: The most WTF part of Voyager canon is that it ends with the Borg no longer being much of a threat
22:16:12 <alise> Why the hell would you do that???
22:16:13 <Vorpal> alise, the non-mirror one downloaded fast
22:16:20 <pikhq> You could freaking make it be about Wesley's adventures if it were written reasonably. :P
22:16:22 <alise> They are the best enemy ever.
22:16:41 <pikhq> (note: to make it written well would require some retconning. Because SHUT UP WESLEY!)
22:17:18 <alise> pikhq: He graduated Starfleet and grew the fuck up.
22:17:27 <cpressey> Borg? Hey yeah, we have one of them on our CREW.
22:17:31 <alise> Tell me one reason not to do this.
22:17:38 <alise> cpressey: I was referring to the finale.
22:17:46 <alise> In which future Janeway says "Ha, actually, I have this magic that defeats the Borg".
22:17:51 <alise> And gives them it.
22:17:54 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:18:00 <cpressey> alise: I only care that it ENDED.
22:18:04 <alise> FUCK THE FUCKING HELL OF JANEWAY FUCK.
22:18:10 <alise> Vorpal: VOYAGER IS FUCKING SHIT.
22:18:14 <Vorpal> Janeway wasn't the worst of Voyager
22:18:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Indeed, she wasn't.
22:18:22 <Vorpal> I mean, there were far worse parts of it
22:18:25 <cpressey> All characters were the worst characters in Voyager
22:18:27 <alise> She was the worst character
22:18:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: But: Fuck. Janeway.
22:18:33 <alise> cpressey: The Doctor
22:18:41 <alise> was the only sane man on the ship
22:18:54 <alise> pikhq: Neelix didn't control the direction of the entire ship and its crew.
22:18:58 <cpressey> OK, maybe the doctor was not entirely void as a character.
22:18:58 <Vorpal> alise, wait a second? Didn't he almost destroy the ship once?
22:19:00 <alise> Or do anything at all, actually.
22:19:02 <Vorpal> after being taken over?
22:19:06 <alise> Vorpal: The Doctor?
22:19:10 <pikhq> alise: He tried very hard to be the Wesley.
22:19:22 <pikhq> Granted, he failed because he *sucks*, but hey!
22:19:32 <alise> pikhq: Robert Picardo, the Doctor, actually initially auditioned for Neelix; can you believe that?
22:19:49 <cpressey> alise: You know waaaay too much about this awful show.
22:19:52 <alise> "I have cooked up a WONDERFUL soup that -- -- will hopefully make you shut up."
22:19:54 <pikhq> alise: You're fucking kidding.
22:19:58 <alise> cpressey: I watch it for amusement.
22:20:07 <alise> cpressey: Like MST3K, but I get to come up with the narration myself.
22:20:16 <pikhq> cpressey: It's often in so-bad-it's-good territory.
22:20:29 <pikhq> Which is... All the merit it has for much of its run.
22:20:52 <pikhq> (there's a handful of actually decent-to-good episodes that somehow managed to sneak in)
22:20:56 <cpressey> At least it's not so boring that I couldn't watch it, like -- some of those other shows.
22:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, wow that mirror universe music was *AWESOME*
22:21:08 <alise> cpressey: I've actually grown on Deep Space 9.
22:21:08 <cpressey> But is awful > boring? Dunno, really.
22:21:11 <Vorpal> alise, just pure awesome
22:21:24 <cpressey> alise: DS9 was not half as bad
22:21:27 <alise> Vorpal: I liked the fade of the title to black at the beginning. It's the little things...
22:21:32 <alise> cpressey: I mean wrt boringness.
22:21:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: The mirror universe episode there was actually genuinely good.
22:21:46 <alise> pikhq: No goatees!
22:21:53 <alise> Just a bunch of people being assholes to each other, and then it ends!
22:21:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, haven't watched them
22:21:55 <cpressey> alise: I don't know if it was boring so much as.. slow.
22:22:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, at least we're not discussing favorite captains.
22:22:13 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OVID'S METAMORPHOSES. READ IT?
22:22:14 <alise> Voyager, "Blood Fever" review: Everyone gets pon farr. Everyone tries to have sex with each other!
22:22:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean Star Trek: The Complete Movie Scripts?
22:22:26 <alise> pikhq: There's a competition?
22:22:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'M ABOUT 1/3 THE WAY THROUGH
22:22:33 <Vorpal> (I wonder, does that exist?)
22:22:37 <pikhq> alise: There's some debate, yes.
22:22:40 <alise> pikhq: Picard. I can see an argument for Sisko, but he wasn't really a captain.
22:22:52 <alise> pikhq: Kirk was brash and ... not as intelligent as Picard. Janewahahahahaha
22:23:02 <pikhq> alise: Some people actually like Kirk. They must love cheese.
22:23:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm I have the say TNG is my favourite
22:23:04 <alise> Archer was... uh... I can't think of anything to say
22:23:50 <alise> pikhq: One bad thing about "In a Mirror, Darkly" was a bit of a continuity error.
22:24:13 <alise> It mentions a speech by Cochrane talking about the future Borg and future crew battling before he made the warp flight in a speech.
22:24:14 <cpressey> Could not find module `Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec'
22:24:19 <alise> cpressey: Text.Parsec
22:24:23 <pikhq> alise: In a series that played with time travel to the point that it may have ceased to have happened, that is *not* a big deal.
22:24:31 <cpressey> they gotta go and move everything huh
22:24:39 <alise> pikhq: How come the crew of First Contact didn't know about this?
22:24:54 <alise> pikhq: YOU CAN say that this is because of the alternate universe.
22:25:00 <alise> But why, when it's identical in every other way apart from evil?
22:25:04 <cpressey> Could not find module `Text.Parsec'
22:25:06 <pikhq> Did I happen to mention that Enterprise may have wiped itself from existence?
22:25:11 <alise> That wasn't "In a Mirror, Darkly".
22:25:18 <alise> That was "Regeneration", which I watched the same day (oops).
22:25:24 <alise> So they have no alternate universe excuse.
22:25:26 <Vorpal> <pikhq> alise: In a series that played with time travel to the point that it may have ceased to have happened, that is *not* a big deal. <-- actually I find that was one of the few good parts of that series
22:25:39 <Vorpal> though, could have been done better
22:25:48 <Vorpal> still, any time travel is better than no time travel ;)
22:25:59 <alise> Any future series must have Q.
22:26:06 <alise> Preferably Q and the Borg at the same time.
22:26:11 <pikhq> alise: rm -rf Voyager && yes
22:26:30 <Vorpal> alise, Q was an annoying arrogant bastard
22:26:32 <alise> Let's just make an episode that is Picard and Q and the Borg destroying Voyager, over and over again, and they do it so many times that it actually disappears from the timestream forever.
22:26:36 <alise> Vorpal: ... that's ... the point ...
22:26:54 <Vorpal> alise, yes and it doesn't work out too well
22:27:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: It worked brilliantly in TNG.
22:27:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, the first 3 or 4 times
22:27:29 <alise> "All Good Things..." <3
22:27:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was solidly meh in DS9, and SUCKED MAJOR ASS in Voyager...
22:27:44 <alise> Vorpal: Dude, there were only 8 Q episodes in TNG.
22:27:47 <alise> There were 8 seasons.
22:28:17 <alise> Vorpal: "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." are the same story.
22:28:21 <alise> Can't avoid involving Q in the conclusion.
22:28:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:28:27 <alise> So that's 7 Q stories now.
22:28:41 <alise> "Hide and Q" was first season, so we can pretend it never existed. 6 Q stories.
22:28:52 <Vorpal> "<alise> "Hide and Q" was first season, so we can pretend it never existed. 6 Q stories."
22:28:59 <alise> Vorpal: the first season was awful
22:29:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: First season sucked and Riker didn't have a beard.
22:29:10 <alise> it introduced Wesley-as-God (by mistake), had beardless Riker, and hackneyed plots.
22:29:11 <cpressey> Ignoring awful things, how does THAT work?
22:29:15 <Vorpal> alise, okay and 4 < 6 still
22:29:36 <cpressey> alise: Don't forget the keychain-sized phasers.
22:29:48 <cpressey> (How do you *aim* that thing?)
22:29:51 <alise> Vorpal: Well, "Q Who" is good because it introduces the Borg and is an awesome episode. 1 good story. "Deja Q" has mortal Q. Good.
22:30:07 <alise> "Qpid" ... eh. Meh. Not included.
22:30:18 <Vorpal> alise, why did you not include Qpid?
22:30:26 <alise> Because it's not good. I'm counting good ones to prove it's > 4.
22:30:30 <alise> ...anyway, point is, almost all Q stories in TNG were good.
22:30:35 <alise> And besides, there were only 8.
22:30:39 -!- olsner has joined.
22:30:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm? how do you aim a laser pointer of keychain size? Such exists for presentation stuff iirc
22:31:11 <Vorpal> alise, the mortal Q one was good, I agree
22:31:27 <Sgeo> I'm going to deliberately induce suffering by watching SGI.. actually, maybe I'll watch Deja Q
22:31:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:31:42 <Sgeo> I think I've seen it before
22:31:53 <alise> Watch "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." back to back. Bet it makes perfect sense.
22:32:18 <Vorpal> alise, how many bluray discs do you need to fit all of TOS I wonder
22:32:23 <cpressey> Vorpal: I don't know. I've never had to mortally wound a whiteboard.
22:32:25 <pikhq> "Encounter at Farpoint" is kinda wince-inducing when Q isn't on-screen.
22:32:45 <alise> SGU has half a season on a Blu-Ray.
22:32:48 <alise> So six, at the most.
22:32:54 <alise> That much quality would be pointless for the shabby source material.
22:33:00 <alise> Vorpal: SGU? 1080p.
22:33:09 <alise> Ultra quality HD etc. new modern show etc.
22:33:12 <alise> Stargate Universe.
22:33:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: ?
22:33:43 <alise> WHAT WE ARE ALL NEGLECTING HERE
22:33:50 <Vorpal> alise, well, 1080p... http://xkcd.com/732/
22:33:54 <alise> IS STAR TREK NEW VOYAGES PHASE II
22:33:54 <cpressey> alise: DOT ACTION SUPER PANIC ?
22:33:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: A Blu-ray disc gets you 50GB. Which is significantly higher than you need for very good quality 1080p video.
22:34:10 <alise> Vorpal: xkcd, stupid
22:34:19 <Vorpal> alise, why is that *specific* xkcd stupid
22:34:20 <alise> also, 1080p is damn good quality
22:34:22 <pikhq> So you either get stupid high-quality movies or quite a lot on a disc.
22:34:27 <Sgeo> I tend to read both xkcd and xkcdsucks though
22:34:31 <Vorpal> alise, I watch movies on computer, not on a TV
22:34:32 <cpressey> Should I break my vow to never read xkcd?
22:34:33 <alise> xkcdsucks sucks a lot nowadays too
22:34:37 <alise> Carl is just going through the motions
22:34:53 <alise> pikhq: STAR TREK NEW VOYAGES: PHASE II
22:35:00 <cpressey> alise: Thankfully I overcame the urge.
22:35:06 <alise> I couldn't even make myself watch more than a few minutes of World Enough and Time.
22:35:10 <alise> The glittersuit did it.
22:35:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, true. So it has way lower DPI too
22:35:15 <alise> He literally wore a suit with glitter all over it.
22:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: You sit way, way away from it.
22:35:29 <alise> xkcd wasn't dissing HDTVs, anyway, just their impressiveness.
22:35:35 <alise> He's saying "HDTVs are good but they are not anything impressive".
22:35:39 <Vorpal> alise, which is also silly IMO
22:35:54 <alise> Vorpal is stupid and has no idea why TVs are good
22:36:11 <Vorpal> alise, I find it nicer to watch on my desktop monitor
22:36:40 <Vorpal> could get a TV tuner card if I needed that
22:36:57 <alise> Television is bad. Televisions are good.
22:38:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, why did you say "ugh" while highlighting me?
22:38:37 <alise> pikhq: Proposal: Star Trek fan sequel series starring people who aren't unwashed Trekkies and with actual production values.
22:38:48 <alise> Such as Vulcans that aren't obviously wearing velcro.
22:38:54 <pikhq> alise: Problem: getting people involved.
22:39:06 <pikhq> alise: Also: to be fair, New Voyages is following after TOS.
22:39:13 <pikhq> It's got about the same level of production values.
22:39:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I hardly ever watch TV. when I watch DVDs I do it on my computer. Which has a nice monitor and nice sound.
22:39:17 <alise> pikhq: I'll play Wesley, who, although he has graduated, has a rare genetic condition that means he still looks 12.
22:39:25 <alise> The looking 12 part, that is.
22:39:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, now I'm wondering what the fuck you meant with "<Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, ugh."
22:39:31 <alise> Also, he has actually shrunk.
22:39:47 <alise> Maybe we should just do a Galaxy Quest series.
22:39:49 <pikhq> alise: How's about we just get Wil Wheaton.
22:39:58 <alise> pikhq: He'd want money.
22:40:07 <alise> Also, he looks like Riker now.
22:40:22 <alise> pikhq: !! Wil could play Riker.
22:40:26 <alise> Frakes is way too old-looking now.
22:40:47 <alise> I'm assuming this has just turned into "Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Next Generation".
22:40:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, okay. I guess you just said that to troll then, if you aren't going to explain what the fuck you meant with it
22:41:51 <alise> pikhq: So, starring WIL WHEATON as COMMANDER WILLIAM T. RIKER.
22:42:09 <cpressey> sudo apt-get install libghc6-parsec-dev
22:42:24 <alise> pikhq: Presumably this is set on the Enterprise-E.
22:42:29 <Vorpal> oh? maybe you meant that tv tuner card have traditionally been shoddy with buggy drivers? Well, there are good ones. I know some people who are using such under linux with good results.
22:42:43 <Vorpal> there are of course still bad tv tuners, but you just have to avoid them
22:42:55 <cpressey> I will get zzo38 to write me a driver for my card
22:42:59 <Vorpal> like you had to avoid ATI graphics a few years ago (that changed quite a bit now though!)
22:43:08 <alise> pikhq: We need Patrick Stewart...
22:43:59 <alise> pikhq: Fuck it, we can't possibly play the TNG crew.
22:44:07 <alise> pikhq: It's set on the Enterprise-K.
22:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, there's a picture of David Tennant as Hamlet about to stab Patrick Stewart.
22:44:17 <Vorpal> alise, why not pick the best characters from each generation? Spock, Picard, Riker, Data, and so on?
22:44:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I loved that performance.
22:44:28 <alise> Vorpal: Because we are Trekkies, and we fucking care about canon.
22:44:41 <alise> Besides, Spock/Picard would delight the slashers.
22:44:43 <Vorpal> alise, ah I know how to solve it
22:44:50 <Vorpal> alise, we take the time travel from ENT
22:44:55 <Vorpal> alise, argh you were too fast
22:45:00 <alise> ENT had no time travel
22:45:12 <alise> but what do you mean
22:45:13 <ais523> it's science fiction, you can contrive a reason
22:45:18 <alise> it was a prequel, not a time travel
22:45:24 <alise> everyone else just forgot to mention Archer and his ship
22:45:35 <Vorpal> alise, ENT had *lots* of time travel iirc?
22:45:46 <ais523> have all the characters resurrected via some alien technology
22:45:51 <Vorpal> ais523, that works too
22:45:53 <ais523> and set it in the far future
22:46:00 <ais523> so they've all had a chance to be dead
22:46:02 <Vorpal> ais523, even further than the rest?
22:46:15 <ais523> far future wrt Star Trek canon
22:46:30 <alise> ais523: the year 3000, let's say!
22:46:36 <alise> and we could have someone frozen in 1999
22:46:46 <alise> [opening titles play]
22:46:49 <Vorpal> alise, ARGH YOU BEAT ME TO IT!
22:47:15 <Vorpal> alise, I think someone from 3100 or such visited Archer in ENT?
22:47:19 <pikhq> This episode brought to you by blatant trademark violation!
22:47:44 <cpressey> Now tubular bells are stuck in my head!
22:48:57 <Vorpal> cpressey, which ones are tubular bells?
22:49:15 * cpressey hands Vorpal a link to Wikipedia
22:50:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, why are they stuck in your head? Accident while practising playing?
22:50:24 <alise> cpressey: Dum dum dumdum dum dum dum dum da da dada dum dum dumdum...
22:50:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh, it uses those?
22:50:33 <alise> Now "Tubular Bells" is stuck in my head!
22:51:03 <cpressey> alise: Thankfully I don't know that one. Only heard of it.
22:51:18 <alise> cpressey: I've listened to the whole thing. It's alright.
22:51:19 <cpressey> For some reason, I think it must be like "Classical Gas".
22:52:41 <alise> cpressey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4eZJh3FFg0 an excerpt of its beginning
22:52:51 <alise> It's not anything amazing or anything, but.
22:52:58 <alise> It sure changes a lot.
22:53:42 <cpressey> I can't seem to put out a lot of that right now.
22:54:21 <cpressey> And also, there are too many things I could be doing, so I can't decide.
22:54:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has joined.
22:54:56 <cpressey> Parsec is a wash. I... just can't get into it.
22:55:38 <cpressey> Well, at least I have it *installed*.
22:55:48 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:56:21 <cpressey> It kind of bugs me that it doesn't come with a lexer
22:57:29 <alise> It's just not ... interesting ... good ... uh
22:58:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, just listened to some tubular bells on youtube, and yeah catchy
22:58:26 <alise> sebbu[laptop]: I just wrote a line on IRC to someone random.
22:58:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:58:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, but futurama theme is a lot more than just that. Lots synthed music too I think
22:59:34 <cpressey> I thought it was one long tubular bells solo
23:02:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, um? Are there different variants?
23:02:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, the ones I found on youtube was definitely not solos
23:05:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, I can't find any that is a solo
23:06:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, definitely synthed music, tubular bells, and some other percussion, possibly also some non-overdriven electrical guitar, though not completely sure about that
23:10:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:10:50 <cpressey> Vorpal: The best TV themes are always instrumental solos
23:11:39 * cpressey struggles through this Parsec thing
23:11:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, not sure I agree
23:12:24 <Vorpal> instrumental: yes in general, though voice that isn't singing can be used to some great effect
23:12:31 <Vorpal> like in the mirror universe theme for ENT
23:12:35 <Vorpal> which is indeed pure awesome
23:13:01 <Vorpal> solos? No I don't think I agree
23:13:46 <cpressey> "Murder, She Wrote", "MacGyver", "The Beachcombers"
23:14:10 <Vorpal> never watched the first or the last ones
23:15:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, which season for the middle one? Was years since I watched MacGyver. And google indicates different theme music for the different seasons
23:15:02 -!- Brandie has joined.
23:15:02 <Brandie> Spamming is fun! Brought to you by FreeNode. /join #freenode
23:15:02 -!- Brandie has left (?).
23:15:33 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:16:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, most absurd spam ever in logs while you were offline
23:16:58 -!- Sebbie has joined.
23:16:58 <Sebbie> Spamming is fun! Brought to you by FreeNode. /join #freenode
23:16:58 -!- Sebbie has left (?).
23:18:32 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover__: robert hart, night watchman at rhodes, declares it was mixed with a sort of palimpsest formed after the obliteration of a previous design. in nature it was wholly fnord by the sculptured walls along our route. only when we had passed outside the radius of the campfire. then i half fancied i heard a new sound: common, yet unlike any i had ever looked
23:19:16 -!- aklis has joined.
23:19:23 -!- aklis has left (?).
23:19:58 <cpressey> aklis: You forgot to tell us about teh FREENOED
23:20:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:20:31 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
23:20:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, no that was some random person joining due to me mentioning this spam to a staffer in #freenode. happened to mention channel name
23:20:57 <Vorpal> and that person was also complaining about the same spam in another channel I think
23:22:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, um I can only find non-solo theme music for MacGyver when googling
23:22:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, so got a link to the solo version?
23:23:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, actually there seems to be some guy who recorded a solo arrangement on guitar, but it seems definitely non-official
23:23:42 <ais523> given that #freenode is the channel where you report spam, why would a spammer refer you to it?
23:23:44 <Vorpal> so yeah a link would be nice
23:24:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, no? Just that last guy
23:24:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, who didn't spam
23:29:46 <cpressey> OK, so Parsec is maybe livable if you build off the supplied combinators.
23:31:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, you don't want to do that in #freenode
23:31:21 <Sgeo> Wait, cpressey dislikes Parsec?
23:31:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, continue and chances are you will be klined
23:31:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, seriously
23:32:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, basically it is a non-joky channel
23:32:27 <Sgeo> Why isn't Deja Q in fiveminute.net ?
23:32:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is "fiveminute.net" to begin with
23:32:51 <ais523> hmm, I've almost got the DJGPP build of C-INTERCAL working again
23:33:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, is it something owned by someone in here? If not, why are you asking here
23:33:28 <Sgeo> Because several people here are fans of fiveminute.net
23:33:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, and seriously go learn about IRC. I think kline was even in the original irc
23:33:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, irc rfc*
23:33:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I nave no idea what it is even
23:34:11 * Sgeo wonders if Vorpal is lacking a web browser
23:34:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I fail to see why I should open it for this
23:34:28 <Sgeo> Grah, I think I'm turning into alise
23:34:54 <Sgeo> It's a site with 5-minute satires of various Star Trek (and a few other series) episodes
23:35:18 <cpressey> Sgeo: I'm working through my differences with Parsec right now
23:35:46 <Sgeo> Vorpal, many of them
23:35:59 <Sgeo> The one for Stargate SG-1's "2010" is junk though
23:35:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh, it is not videos? It is transcripts?
23:36:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, how can it be 5-minute satires then?
23:36:21 <Vorpal> wouldn't it depend on reading speed
23:36:24 <cpressey> ais523: Yes! DJGPP rocking goodness!
23:36:27 <Sgeo> *shrug*, it's just the name
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Yar: And stranded the two of them on a remote planet? Does this mean Q's reality series is Queer Eye for the Bearded Guy now?
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Worf: Commander Riker does not have a beard.
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Yar: Yeah, but who knows if I'll get a shot at making that joke later.
23:38:19 -!- Hiant has joined.
23:40:19 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit).
23:41:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:42:10 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, I've almost got the DJGPP build of C-INTERCAL working again <-- does that mean you had to break filenames again?
23:42:39 <ais523> but I haven't found out yet
23:43:29 <Vorpal> ais523, I seem to remember that the Mac/PPC port had some longer filenames, that had to be that way
23:43:48 <Vorpal> that is MacOS Classic/PPC
23:46:03 <cpressey> !haskell let i :: Integer = read "123"
23:46:21 <cpressey> No, there's some other syntax for that isn't there
23:46:27 <Vorpal> ais523, did you integrate the patches from my port?
23:47:01 <ais523> aren't they rather system-specific?
23:47:03 <cpressey> !haskell let (i :: Integer) = read "123" in i
23:47:05 <Vorpal> ais523, some of those fixed generic problems that were hidden due to gcc accepting non-strictly conforming programs
23:47:19 <Vorpal> ais523, see the docs included with the patches
23:47:24 <ais523> hmm, I'll try to see which are portability patches and maybe apply them
23:47:58 <Vorpal> ais523, and the path generation fix is generic but only matters on platforms where adding an extra path separator char isn't harmless
23:48:01 <Vorpal> such as classic mac OS
23:48:08 <Vorpal> where it is definitely non-harmless
23:48:09 <cpressey> !haskell let i = ((read "123") :: Integer) in i
23:48:35 <Vorpal> ais523, since there could be other such platforms you should probably apply that fix
23:49:25 <ais523> oh, I agree with portability fixing
23:49:37 <Vorpal> ais523, and one fix for the *.l files was needed for any platforms lacking unistd.h
23:49:45 <Sgeo> My patch is in AceHack!
23:49:58 <Vorpal> ais523, which flex didn't properly check for
23:50:01 <ais523> Sgeo: it is; when did you find out, and how?
23:50:12 <Sgeo> ais523, you mentioned it in #nethack I think
23:50:18 <Sgeo> Either that, or you were adding it
23:50:26 <ais523> and I assumed you'd have noticed earlier
23:50:26 <Vorpal> ais523, very few of those patches are system specific. It is just that it happens to work on most other platforms :P
23:50:49 <Sgeo> Well, we were talking about AceHack now
23:50:49 <Vorpal> ais523, the system specific stuff is in the ppc subdir and in perpet.c, and iirc not everything for perpet.c was system specific
23:52:50 <Vorpal> ais523, bbl, if you have any question about the patches I'm probably back in about 20 minutes or so. Maybe a bit more
23:53:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:54:32 -!- comjex has changed nick to comex.
23:59:59 <oerjan> <cpressey> I think it is, because I think you can encode SMETANA in it, but my brain isn't really working <-- SMETANA isn't TC