00:07:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:10:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:16:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:21 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:19:07 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 00:30:59 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:36:14 -!- tombom has joined. 00:45:38 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:57:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:57:27 Three things you should try to guess: How many pages does CZZT currently have? How many pages will it have when it is complete? Also guess how large the Win32 executable file will be when it is finished? 00:58:13 42, 99999, and 35MB 00:59:16 (hey you didn't say is should make an _educated_ guess) 00:59:18 *i 00:59:37 0, G*i, 1 millibyte. 00:59:52 G*i? 01:00:05 Graham's number * sqrt(-1). 01:00:16 that's not a cardinal number, pikhq 01:00:23 Try to make an educated guess, next time. I do not know the answer to second and third question, although the first actual answer is more than 42, and my guess for the second is less than 99999 01:00:29 He never asked for a cardinal. 01:00:35 He asked for a number. 01:00:47 he said "how many" 01:00:57 Curses, he did ask for a cardinal. 01:01:04 Okay, fine. The real component of G*i. 01:01:06 :P 01:01:22 The real component of G*i is 0 isn't it? 01:01:27 Yes, yes it is. 01:01:27 zzo38, I can't make an educated guess 01:01:27 that's not very ... right 01:01:42 I can say that it will probably have more than 0 pages, and less thanb.. oh, already done 01:02:27 The problem is the summary of kinds now spans 2 pages, and I want to get it all on 1 page. Does anyone in here know some things about TeX that I can make it on 1 page? 01:03:37 I will tell you the current project size: 67 pages, and 53610 bytes of source codes (all *.w and *.wi files) 01:04:21 And what kind of computer can measure in 1 millibyte? Can we invent a esolang like that? 01:04:34 zzo38: have you seen TURKEY BOMB? 01:04:44 it doesn't use millibytes, but it does use fractions of a bit 01:04:57 ais523: Yes, I have seen. 01:05:30 I dunno, but having sub-bit addressing would be awesome. 01:05:36 If bizarre. 01:06:55 Yes. If someone can figure it out. 01:07:05 È subito informazione 01:08:38 Now guess how many staplers I have in my desk drawer. 01:09:10 36 01:09:30 No 01:09:50 1 01:09:53 Yes 01:09:58 do I win a prize? 01:10:06 179043... darn 01:10:14 No, I don't have any prize to give, sorry 01:10:30 you could give him the stapler 01:10:38 guess how many staplers are in the drawer in the table in front of me 01:11:06 How can I do if I don't have address? Maybe if I had more than 1 I would send one to you 01:11:13 oh wait you said "staplers", not "staples" 01:11:24 ais523: I guess, you have no staplers, but you do have a staple remover 01:11:40 (Because you already removed the stapler from the drawer) 01:12:08 zzo38: I'm not sure if you're right or not 01:12:13 this table doesn't actually have a drawer 01:12:24 thus evaluating the number of staplers in it is sort-of difficult 01:12:25 ais523: That was my second guess. 01:12:49 * oerjan swats ais523 ------### 01:13:03 ouch! 01:13:13 hmm, where's alise? 01:13:29 haven't seen him today 01:15:01 Now guess, how many ranks my D&D character has in Perform(Harp) skill, and also how many claws my D&D character has at each hand/feet, and in total 01:15:13 And also guess the exact number of XP of my D&D character 01:15:24 you play a harp... with claws? 01:15:29 And also of my brother's character 01:15:57 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:16:08 ais523: Yes, it is slightly difficult but if you put harp on table it can be done more effectively, especially if you have enough ranks in that skill, and if you use both hands. 01:16:31 That means, some things ordinary people require 1 hand, some things might need 2 hands instead, but it can still be done 01:16:33 -!- cheater99 has joined. 01:17:40 (I have proven this by doing various things like this with my own hand but not using all my fingers, to see how many are minimum require for certain things) 01:19:31 After you attempt to answer these questions, look at this http://sprunge.us/hMBS tell me if you know about TeX how to fit the summary of kinds table all on one page? 01:19:42 (Possibly with some on the right?) 01:55:34 -!- wareya_ has joined. 01:58:40 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:14:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:20:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:26:44 hm, maybe someone here would be able to answer this for me 02:27:05 i was reading about bz2, and i'm a little puzzled as to the point of the runa/runb thing in the run length encoding 02:27:23 specifically, i'm unsure what would make it more effective than some simpler method of encoding the length 02:32:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:37:05 *groan* 02:37:28 So, that h.264 royalty-free license for certain works is now permanent. 02:37:33 Fuck. We're stuck. 02:37:42 myndzi: the encoding is actually just binary 02:37:53 modified such that redundant entries like 00001 are impossible 03:16:19 runb place values are multiplied by 2, though 03:16:35 that's the part i don't really understand 03:16:50 i guess it gives you a chance to save a bit or something, but i don't see why it is worth it 03:27:00 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:44:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:00:57 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 04:01:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:22:28 -!- sftp has joined. 05:50:03 -!- augur has joined. 05:54:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:54:19 -!- augur has joined. 06:16:48 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 06:56:24 If there was a solution to the halting problem, what mathematical questions would remain unsolved? 06:56:53 The Riemann Hypothesis might, if any counterexamples were irrational numbers 06:57:23 Although I think a result that "Either the Riemann Hypothesis is true, or all counterexamples are irrational" is still interesting somehow 06:57:30 What else? 07:20:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:25:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:36:28 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:54:02 -!- sftp_ has joined. 07:54:46 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:29:19 if the halting problem can be solved, doesn't that imply that the goedel stuff would have been disproven as well? 08:41:27 -!- relet has joined. 09:05:46 Is there any countable infinite named subset of the reals that contains all rational numbers and some irrational numbers? 09:08:14 Algebraic numbers? 09:10:42 And the computable numbers, I guess. 09:12:46 What happens when we say that no computable number falsifies the Riemann hypothesis 09:12:51 Is that interesting, or boring? 09:14:35 It's not possible for a non-definable number to be a counterexample to anything, is it? 09:15:55 * Sgeo reads the wikipedia article and mehs 09:18:36 Sgeo: yes, there is 09:18:47 the set of all rationals and all rational multiples of pi 09:19:47 (or the other ones suggested, but I like my answer since it's easier to count) 09:20:19 It's not "named" in the sense of having a well-known name, is it? 09:20:43 Not that a "named set" is a very well-defined thing. 09:20:56 I should sleep 09:20:59 (You can always give it a name, after all.) 09:22:10 I call it the pitional numbers 09:22:51 The Coppros, often denoted by ℂ℘. 09:23:18 "Pitiful numbers" is a good candidate too. 09:26:15 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:48:21 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:50:00 -!- Killerkid has joined. 10:07:08 -!- tombom has joined. 10:07:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:54:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:44:41 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:47:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:50:30 -!- sftp has joined. 11:50:48 -!- sftp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:24:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:34:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:37:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:41:35 22:56:24 If there was a solution to the halting problem, what mathematical questions would remain unsolved? 12:41:38 22:56:53 The Riemann Hypothesis might, if any counterexamples were irrational numbers 12:42:06 the riemann hypothesis is equivalent to a statement about the distribution of prime numbers 12:42:59 so if you could solve halting problems in a recursive manner, the riemann hypothesis would be solved 12:43:38 hm actually you may not even need the recursion 12:46:17 http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/arithmetic-hierarchy-and-pnp/ is where i saw the equivalent statement discussed 12:48:02 (and essentially it's an equivalent question, too, because the arithmetic hierarchy can be formulated using halting problems) 12:50:03 -!- cheater has joined. 12:50:05 hiii 12:50:20 who wants to see some ugly code 12:50:28 http://pastebin.com/ynf5pZaj 12:50:59 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy#Relation_to_Turing_machines 12:51:54 oerjan: how do you like my seds 12:52:30 * oerjan runs away screaming 12:53:06 * cheater sits down and smokes a pipe. 12:54:34 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:54:58 -!- sftp has joined. 12:58:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:58:15 cheater, how do you smoke a | ? 12:58:41 Vorpal, I can only conclude that you are playing dumb. 12:58:49 Phantom_Hoover, I was making a pun 12:58:54 cheater, that's some ugly code/ 12:59:09 * Phantom_Hoover smokes a bracket 12:59:14 Phantom_Hoover, considering the context of shell script and "* cheater sits down and smokes a pipe." I felt it wasn't that far-fetched 12:59:23 to joke about | 13:09:20 you just be _glad_ a certain person isn't here to snark about it 13:10:01 oerjan, you makes puns like that too 13:10:39 Vorpal, yeah, but you EXPECT oerjan to start punning. 13:11:10 Phantom_Hoover, and why am I not allowed to do it? 13:11:36 Because you're not oerjan! 13:12:10 Phantom_Hoover, why does not being oerjan imply that you aren't allowed to make puns? 13:12:26 well of course you're allowed. color blind people are allowed to paint, too 13:12:52 I wasn't aware that ducks were valid HTML. 13:13:07 what person 13:14:03 _someone_ who tends to pick on everything Vorpal does 13:14:14 who 13:14:28 Vorpal, the set of people allowed to make puns that bad is {oerjan, DMM}. 13:16:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 13:16:49 The 314th maths nerd! 13:18:13 If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's valid HTML. 13:18:41 Ducks must be included in every standard. 13:19:00 Well, they're probably already in the CL standard. 13:20:30 fungot, do you still want to kill me? 13:20:30 Phantom_Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! 13:20:36 ^style 13:20:36 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 13:20:54 ^style europarl 13:20:54 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 13:21:09 fungot, how about now? 13:21:11 Phantom_Hoover: mr president, would you be prepared, and that opinion is in line with the treaty. it was indeed a pleasure for me, as a family, if there is no proof of their maturity, their composure and their ability to create a european stock exchange which will generate new jobs. 13:22:50 fungot: lolcats 13:22:51 cheater: mr president, the rapporteur and the committee on budgetary control, thanks in particular to welcome and briefly debate last september. the officials of the european union's number one priority and also the honourable member of your group and party. at most, mr president-in-office of the council, i am convinced that cohesion is not just excessive but is in reality a plan for the court of first instance. 13:22:59 lol 13:23:36 ^style 13:23:36 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 13:23:41 ^style c64 13:23:42 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 13:23:50 fungot: cake 13:23:50 cheater: run ( starts at line-number 500) will disable the switching of character memory can be achieved by using this line should only be compared ( or more programs in memory until you had in mind that the interrupt register. 13:23:59 That's a bit boring style, the formatting is badly. 13:24:04 nah 13:24:13 it's gonna be help for helping newbies with code 13:24:26 fungot: !recursion 13:24:26 cheater: p=192 sets the alarm access bit. the duration above. then jsr chrgot. another color control can set all of the keyboard 13:24:41 fungot: So how about them SID registers, are they read-write or write-only? 13:24:41 fizzie: 1) set the corresponding interrupt will occur. the high-pass output. the string: filename) note space here. go back to ascii text of the screen background. 13:24:46 fungot: kernel programming 13:24:46 cheater: 3. this is used to count much longer intervals. cia 1 56320-56335 in-between commands ( like in multi-color character mode, pairs of pixels instead of using one of the statement cr=peek(55296)and15. this allows a user written machine language 13:24:53 Is it just me or is Comments on a Postcard completely broken? 13:25:56 It seems brokened here too. 13:26:46 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----### 13:26:59 oerjan, why? 13:27:07 Is it *meant* to be broken? 13:27:10 yep 13:27:47 ...But they referred to it in today's SRoMG, with every indication that there was something there... 13:27:59 Phantom_Hoover, SRoMG? 13:28:12 oh that. i don't think that was the same postcard :D 13:28:18 Vorpal, read Mezzacotta's stuff. 13:28:45 Ahh, clever. 13:28:49 Phantom_Hoover, I just asked what it stands for 13:28:51 The annotations are the whole thing. 13:29:02 oh wait it was 13:30:19 square root of minus garfield 13:30:40 oh 13:30:48 * oerjan notes the cat is back in iwc 13:31:05 oerjan, yeah noticed it too 13:31:27 oerjan, and it has been pretty obvious for some time that we have been heading for a new paradox. 13:31:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:31:33 -!- derdon has joined. 13:34:50 Vorpal, it's been explicit for ages... 13:35:07 Ever since Fireballs got assigned, at least. 13:35:35 Phantom_Hoover, yes that is what I said, "some time" is pretty vague and intentionally so 13:36:18 Evidently the San Dimas time is running strangely. 13:36:31 Given that Adam and Jamie blew up the time stream ages ago. 13:37:25 Phantom_Hoover, when time travel is involved, does your last line really make any sense? 13:37:36 Vorpal, hence "San Dimas". 13:37:41 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:37:47 Per TV Tropes. 13:37:54 San Dimas? *googles* 13:38:35 Phantom_Hoover, it seems to be a town in US 13:38:53 now I'm all confused 13:38:57 Vorpal, check the TV Tropes entry for "San Dimas Time". 13:39:13 Vorpal: it's a tvtrope, he said. those are rather creatively named. 13:39:28 okay, I learnt how to avoid clicking links so... 13:39:48 famous last words 13:40:46 right, read it 13:40:50 well okay 13:41:04 * Phantom_Hoover performs a tabectomy. 13:41:14 Phantom_Hoover, that thing always annoyed me in movies 13:41:42 Vorpal, meh. I get around it by assuming a second time dimension. 13:41:45 san dimas time that is 13:41:57 Phantom_Hoover, hm that works I guess 13:42:17 Phantom_Hoover, what if you somehow manages to travel in that as well? 13:42:25 that would make one confusing movie 13:42:50 I've thought about that, but I'm eating a cake so can't type too quickly. 13:43:04 of course you could just add a third one 13:43:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:43:39 but at some point that just gets too silly 13:45:24 Hence why I assume that the second time dimension is impossible to travel in. 13:46:48 -!- derdon has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 13:47:31 -!- sftp_ has joined. 13:47:48 Or that, when travelled in, has the properties typically associated with more "realistic" time travel. 13:48:04 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:48:31 -!- derdon has joined. 13:52:57 Phantom_Hoover, Would you move in the second time dimension when you are not traveling in the first? 13:53:37 I don't particularly think it matters. 13:53:53 hm 13:54:08 Since the only meaningful change in the system comes about when time travel is taking place. 13:56:48 Phantom_Hoover, this also solves the grand father paradox I think 13:57:19 since it would be done at a different place in the second timeline 13:57:24 err time dimension 13:59:17 also solves the similar "had no reason to go back once the change is made"-paradox 14:00:40 though you could make both still apply by making it so that time travellers are "rebased" (in the DVCS sense) to the current time line when traveling. Though, not sure if it solves the primary problem any longer then 14:29:22 Heh, "concolic"; what an awesome new word-coinage. (It's from "concrete" and "symbolic", in the context of automated exhaustive testing; for some reason there was a random theory guy included in the summer student seminar session which otherwise was mostly about speech stuff.) 14:31:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:37:48 fizzie, if I was oerjan I would make a pun about symbolic cement here. 14:42:38 Unfortunately, you are not, and are therefore contractually prohibited from making such a pun. 14:42:48 fizzie, I didn't sign anything though 14:43:07 Nowadays you can get into a contract simply by sneezing in the wrong place. 14:44:05 I get a nagging feeling that was a reference to something that I don't quite remember 14:46:06 The sneezing part wasn't a specific reference to anything, but there has certainly been some nonsense about a contract being established in ridiculous ways. Can't remember a specific example offhand. 14:46:35 fizzie, hm... hhgtg? 14:46:41 well one of the follow up books rather 14:46:44 not sure which 14:47:09 watching movie about kriket (sp?) 14:48:37 There's the Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI, who believe the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and who fear the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief. 14:48:44 That's about the only sneezing-related thing I recall. 14:50:51 fizzie, no I meant the contract part 14:51:01 Oh. Hmm. 14:51:14 fizzie, I definitely think there is an example of that in HHGTG 14:51:19 I was thinking of real-life things there, but I wouldn't rule out related bits in the Book. 14:52:20 fizzie, out of curiosity, what was the nationality of "Jatravartid of Viltvodle VI" 14:52:40 err s/d /ds / 14:53:28 What do you mean, nationality? They're "the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI", no more is told to us. 14:53:51 fizzie, sure that is "real-life"+ 14:53:54 s/+/?/ 14:54:25 Gnaah, no, I mean I was thinking of real-life things w.r.t. the contract thing. 14:54:29 ah 14:54:49 Something EULA- or maybe website-terms-of-service-related, I think. 14:54:53 fizzie, I don't remember "Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI" from hhgtg though the name *sounds* like it could be from there 14:55:14 They're not very prominently featured. 14:55:22 right 14:55:47 Only in two paragraphs of the introduction of The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. 14:56:01 mhm 14:56:29 "The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God, though the Jatravartid --" 14:57:11 Then it moves on from the Great Green Arkleseizure theory to other attempts of finding the Answer (and the Question). 14:58:11 I used "Arkleseizure" as the Bluetooth name of the N-Gage. 15:04:55 fizzie, hah 15:06:32 It was back when I had a Guide-inspired naming scheme overall. 15:10:05 ah 15:21:47 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:25:09 mmm 15:25:18 nothing like a cold drink 15:25:34 i would just like to inform you that there is so much ice in my glass that it sticks like 2 cm out 15:30:58 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:31:21 fizzie: in greece you can become legally married by going around a table once 15:31:53 What if there's a goat on said table? 15:38:22 you go around the table with the woman 15:38:27 so you'd have to lead a goat around a table 15:38:35 i'm afraid goats are more stubborn than to allow that 15:43:11 -!- relet has joined. 15:46:44 -!- Flonk has joined. 16:31:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:35:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:50:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:27:06 -!- augur has joined. 17:49:47 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:14:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:15:13 -!- cheater99 has joined. 18:45:22 Huh 18:45:54 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 19:05:01 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:08:45 pawns. 19:30:19 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:30:59 -!- wareya has joined. 19:34:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:41:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:42:28 -!- nooga has joined. 20:04:22 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:06:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:10:26 Mr Smith. 20:12:57 hi 20:19:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:19:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:30:55 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:35:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:35:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:43:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:53:59 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:07:00 Anyone have a space sim to recommend? 21:08:31 Operation Space Station 21:08:42 though I've never actually played it 21:09:15 There's no such THING 21:09:26 Good old (emphasis on old now) Microsoft Space Simulator?-) 21:09:33 Phantom_Hoover: That's possible 21:09:33 cpressey, incidentally, I've come to a conclusion regarding the monad design pattern. 21:10:15 It's effectively the same as assigning a design pattern to if constructs. 21:12:05 There's also that freeware thing, what'sitcalled, Orbiter? Don't know anything 'bout it. 21:12:14 Phantom_Hoover: Interesting. I would say such design patterns do exist, they're just very simple and might be better called "implementation patterns". I came to a, well, different thought. It seems to me that there ought to be any number of very bizarre monads one could devise. 21:12:21 IIRC it's Windows-only. 21:13:02 It might well be. Well, Space Simulator will run in DOS too. 21:17:58 cpressey, yes, there are. 21:18:12 That's why it's absurd to confine them to a single design pattern. 21:18:45 That's also why we need form an Esoteric Task Force for Stupid Monad Tricks. 21:19:30 hmm, yes 21:19:36 I can't think of any really silly monads, though 21:19:39 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:19:52 well, Feather probably forms a monad, but only because everything like that does 21:19:53 ais523, Identity! 21:20:01 EXPLAIN FEATHER ALREADY 21:20:15 ENOTIMPLEMENTED 21:20:25 Phantom_Hoover: it's difficult... 21:20:35 some day I may understand it myself 21:20:36 The general concept? 21:20:39 and then I'll be able to explain it 21:20:51 general concept is that of retroactive changes as the main form of doing anything 21:21:11 Right, so assigning a variable retroactively changes it etc.? 21:21:26 well, "assign" isn't the right word, really 21:22:43 The equivalent? 21:23:30 the basic operation is retroactively-become, but it tends to lead to infinite loops unless guarded very carefully 21:25:32 How? 21:27:00 because a retroactive change rewinds time to when the thing happened, then changes the state to make the change 21:27:02 and then runs from there 21:27:11 Ah. 21:27:16 so you have to retroactively change things such that the change never happens, in order to avoid a loop 21:27:21 sort-of the opposite of how time travel normally works 21:27:46 Yes. 21:27:50 I would imagine, if the contents of the variable X ever determines whether "X retroactively-becomes ..." is executed, a loop occurs, or rather, you have to resolve some kind of nasty fixed point thing. 21:28:33 Nasty because, uh, the condition I stated is generally undecidable. 21:28:44 cpressey: nah, if there's any issue at all, you just get an infinite loop 21:29:04 if you set a variable to its current value with primitives, you /always/ get an infinite loop 21:29:09 You would presumably need to code if (¬changed) retbecom 21:29:12 yep 21:29:23 the issue is then to determine the value of changed 21:29:35 this is why things are done in a vaguely OO style 21:29:43 "sane" retroactive changes are the addition of a method 21:29:52 and then you can check to see if the method exists or not first 21:29:57 ais523: Perhaps I am jumping ahead to trying to statically analyze this beast. Please excuse me. 21:30:15 cpressey: if you figure out how Feather works, please let me know 21:30:34 atm I'm trying to get started 21:30:39 ais523, what bit are you stuck at? 21:30:47 you see, some of the other things that can retroactively change are the rules of the language itself 21:31:07 there's no conceputal problem here, but I'm having problems actually implementing it 21:31:16 because everything is defined in terms of everything else 21:31:41 it's a similar task to trying to write a Smalltalk VM in something other than Smalltalk 21:31:49 which must have been accomplished once, I suppose 21:31:56 but which is kind-of difficult 21:31:59 Redefining the language seems... Lispy. 21:32:33 hmm... Feather could be a great tool to wave at Lisp advocates who claim every other lang's just a special case of theirs 21:32:35 if it actually works 21:32:49 Heh. 21:34:01 Would keeping tonnes of continuations work? 21:34:20 it's how I plan to implement it, yes 21:34:23 it seems the obvious way 21:35:25 So CPS the code? 21:36:27 -!- whtspc has joined. 21:36:32 I was planning to use a higher-level lang that does CPS for me 21:36:58 Would it be possible to statically analyse the source to work out exactly which continuations you need? 21:37:01 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit). 21:37:13 Rather than keeping loads and loads of them. 21:37:16 hahahahahahahahahaha 21:37:34 It's not *that* absurd! 21:37:55 Provided you only allow retbecomes to predefined points. 21:38:02 statically analysing Feather is like trying to statically analyse something like SMITH 21:38:38 OK, s/statically analyse/remember where the damn retbecomes pointed/ 21:40:03 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 21:42:19 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:42:31 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 21:47:25 ais523, OK, so how is your implementation stuff at the moment? 21:47:46 abandoned as usual 21:47:49 I've failed twice so far 21:47:51 I may try again some time 21:48:17 What ideas do you have, then? 21:49:25 ugh, it's hard to explain 21:49:45 For implementation? 21:51:10 Offhand, I would go for the interpreter calling a continuation with a function that transforms the environment appropriately. 21:53:58 But you've probably exploded your brain more than me over thiss. 21:56:21 the difficulty is that the interpreter must be written in Feather, in case you retroactively modify the interpreter that the interpreter was written in to make it dump source code 21:56:40 strangely, the turtles-all-the-way-down regress this apparently causes is not the hardest-to-resolve part of things 21:57:11 O.o 21:58:02 ...What is? 21:58:15 -!- iGO has joined. 21:58:29 i do not go 21:58:44 Wait, Feather is implementable? 21:58:51 What happens when I retroactively print something? 21:58:54 Sgeo, that was always the point. 21:59:04 Sgeo, magic or curses. 21:59:16 Pick one. 22:02:39 Sgeo: I/O is another issue 22:02:52 at any point in the execution, though, you can determine what the program has outputted so far 22:03:00 so I suppose it's just a case of erasing output from the screen when you backtrack 22:03:55 Will it be possible to build more structured time control structures than whatever the primitive is? Similar to building structured flow control from gotos or continuations? 22:04:09 What high-level structures would make sense? 22:04:30 Sgeo, these things are all brainsploding territory. 22:04:42 there certainly are saner primitives possible 22:04:52 I mean, nonprimitives 22:05:06 ais523: The way you've descibed it, Feather sounds trivially implementable 22:05:18 for instance, you could retroactively change a value into a function that acts exactly like that value until the point of the retroactive assignment, and then starts acting like a different value 22:05:22 that's close to traditional assignment 22:05:23 cpressey, the self-modification of the interpreter, though. 22:05:34 cpressey: the issue is the object-oriented structure 22:05:57 Is the implementation coming before or after the spec? 22:06:11 even something really simple like comparing two atoms for equality (where "atom" = "object whose only purpose is to be compared to other atoms for equality") leads to an infinite regress with obvious implementations 22:06:21 as they send each other messages which are other atoms 22:06:27 Sgeo: being codeveloped 22:06:39 OK, I was behind. Just got back to my desk. 22:06:47 Some subset of Feather is trivially implementable. 22:06:51 Duh. 22:06:52 well, yes 22:06:57 given that lambda calculus is a subset of Feather 22:07:05 (easy way to make it TC, among other things) 22:07:12 Well, some subset with retroactive something. 22:07:22 Every time you change something, restart the program, with that change. 22:07:27 yep 22:07:54 I foresee two major problems; getting started (the one I'm getting hung up on), and writing a standard library that's actually useful 22:08:39 ais523, what's the current worst thing? 22:08:52 comparing two atoms 22:09:08 I think I can work around it by having every object have a method that states whether it's a particular atom or not 22:09:24 Blagh, OO. 22:09:32 Why'd you need to spoil it like that? 22:09:52 that is, one particular special atom that's treated differently in order to break the infinite dependency loop 22:10:27 Phantom_Hoover: what do you have against OO? 22:10:31 besides, we need more OO esolangs 22:10:41 Phantom_Hoover, so, you'd rather I not like Smalltalk? 22:10:48 and that sort of structure is needed in Feather to not degenerate 22:10:55 ais523, no, it just seems... messy. 22:10:58 Sgeo: Smalltalk is the main inspiration for Feather, actually 22:11:05 ... 22:11:06 <3 22:11:16 I was thinking about "why do we need objects separate from classes" 22:12:06 and the reason is because of inheritance; you want to modify methods in a class and all its subclasses, but objects shouldn't work like that 22:12:23 and then I noticed that the problem doesn't exist if you modify a prototype object before any subclassing or object creation is used 22:12:26 and the idea snowballed from there 22:16:41 hm local root exploit on <2.6.36-rc1 22:16:54 CVE not yet published but googling it turns up details 22:17:02 the pre-reserved number that is 22:17:29 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:17:31 ais523: I'm not sure I see that problem. "You want to modify methods"? 22:17:49 cpressey: it isn't quite that simple 22:17:57 Delegation-based OO doesn't seem to have a problem with that... assuming it's what I think it is, which I guess it isn't 22:17:59 lucid seems vurnable. 22:18:01