00:22:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:25:12 -!- cpressey has joined. 00:27:08 Well, the reflective version of (what I was talking about) still does apply to Turing machines, at least. It's just a formulation of the HP where the input is "me" instead of "another machine like me". 00:28:09 Also, Eightebed is nearing completion. I have the runtime support built, I think, I just need to test it. 00:28:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:30:56 L8R D00DZ 00:31:00 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:48:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:50:12 Do you ever use inverted logic to make your programs more efficient? 00:53:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: I never don't refrain from avoiding that). 00:53:15 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:54:47 -!- wareya has joined. 01:24:48 MWAHAHAH 01:24:58 I CAN FIX ALL THAT IS WRONG WITH THE MUSIC PLAYING ON HERE 01:25:01 ? 01:25:03 how 01:25:08 Rockbox supports SDL. 01:25:14 :P 01:25:15 ... 01:25:17 no man 01:25:18 awful 01:25:19 oh 01:25:22 you mean pixi 01:25:23 not computer 01:25:24 lol 01:25:24 Yes. 01:25:35 I'm quite satisfied with music playing on my desktop. 01:25:49 And Rockbox is not bad for portable playing. A bit rough UI-wise, but not bad. 01:25:58 it has doom 01:26:15 Yes. 01:26:22 Pixi can run it natively, as well. 01:26:32 I am writing a program with SDL, now. 01:27:38 Now to bother getting the cross compiler. 01:29:11 Do you know what the sample rate is of a PC speaker? 01:31:02 no 01:32:07 Do you ever use inverted logic to make your programs more efficient? 01:32:08 wat? 01:32:09 It should seem that a program that emulates it should ideally use only sample rates which are either a multiple of the PC speaker rate or a factor of the PC speaker rate. 01:33:03 alise: By inverted logic like that, I mean storing various boolean and bit fields in the inverted way than normal, in some cases but not all cases. 01:33:08 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:33:49 (Sort of like how electronic circuits sometimes do; they might put a bar over the signal name or put a circle on the pin in the diagram) 01:35:02 In CZZT, the video_mem.flash_state variable is toggled between 0x7F and 0xFF 01:35:23 (Where 0x7F means blinking text is displayed, and 0xFF means blinking text is hidden.) 01:36:19 Hopefully, does this way of storing the values makes sense to you, or not? 01:40:52 so 1 means block the option, 0 means unblocked? 01:41:05 just redefining the use of boolean values 01:41:21 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:41:33 zeotrope: Depending on which way is more efficient you might use 0 for blocked or 1 for blocked, it depends on the program. 01:42:48 -!- wareya has joined. 01:42:58 In the blinking text case, however, normal boolean values (0 and 1) are not used, instead 0xFF and 0x7F are used, and there is a reason for that 02:11:50 http://i.imgur.com/7s5jc.jpg 02:11:55 this is the greatest thing every, i think 02:20:22 augur: i love the best party 02:20:35 alise: i cant disagree 02:21:16 i feel its like what simon pegg's political party would be like if he had one 02:21:29 the great thing is 02:21:46 i get the feeling that icelanders are some of the most care free nutballers on the planet 02:21:51 i bet it'll do a world of good for reykjavík 02:21:55 since he's actually, you know 02:21:56 not evil 02:22:03 http://www.grapevine.is/Home/ 02:22:19 theres a fuckin article titled Grand Old Aunt Bjork 02:22:26 with moomins 02:22:42 an editorial with a guy yawning widemouthedly saying SO LONG SUCKERS! 02:23:19 theres breaking news about a concert hall on fire 02:23:29 i dont know if these guys give a damn or not 02:23:32 i just wish that they had more ... people 02:23:39 i feel like they realized their country basically imploded 02:23:53 and realized, hey, our country imploded, but nothing is any worse 02:24:05 it was all in our heads in the first place 02:25:45 augur: where is that mayor's address from? 02:25:56 the print version of the link i just gave 02:27:54 i think ... i think i want to buy this paper regularly 02:28:11 "Improve your feeling of self-worth by joining our prestigious mailing list. It’s free, yet with a veneer of exclusivity and ridiculous overpricing unmatched on the internet." 02:28:12 who doesn't! 02:28:21 see? 02:28:24 i told you 02:28:28 link me to the specific article? 02:28:37 its like their country imploded, and they realized it didnt matter 02:28:42 i dont have the link to the article. :|} 02:28:43 :| 02:28:46 print 02:28:48 version 02:28:50 what are you, blind 02:28:51 no, it's not 02:28:54 it has text antialiasing 02:28:56 windows text antialiasing 02:28:57 subpixel 02:28:59 what 02:29:06 the text 02:29:09 it has windows subpixel antialiasing 02:29:09 o tru 02:29:17 i dont know where its from on the site then 02:29:18 and little pixel icons 02:29:21 in the bottom-right 02:29:23 augur: possibly form a pdf 02:29:27 possibly! 02:29:27 due to the text flowing 02:29:29 *from 02:29:40 multi-column is a bitch - or horrific - on the web obvs 02:29:44 true 02:29:46 HTML5! 02:29:53 it's definitely not html. 02:29:59 prolinot 02:32:58 !haskell length "augur" == length "alise" 02:33:05 True 02:33:13 :) 02:34:06 Sgeo: X_X stealing from/attacking Izchak is apparently considered "extremely poor form" 02:34:17 That's ... pretty retarded 02:38:16 Would probably be worse if your character's name was "Cancer" 02:38:18 >.> 02:43:00 * alise tries to talk about ais523's experience with Mathematica in #nethack without actually mentioning his name 02:43:04 It's like juggling, only painful. 02:43:54 hah 02:43:59 dalek 02:44:07 wat? 02:44:17 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:45:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek 02:45:38 I know what a Dalek is. 02:45:43 Dalek as a part of British culture 02:45:50 interesting 02:46:41 "Hiding behind the sofa whenever the Daleks appear" has been cited as an element of British cultural identity 02:46:49 i think the whole country of iceland is going through some sort of collective enlightenment, alise 02:46:51 i really do 02:46:54 2008 survey indicated that 9 out of 10 British children were able to identify a Dalek correctly. 02:46:58 like 02:47:12 i think its like one of those zen tales about the pupil reaching enlightenment through some absurdist situation 02:47:16 Santa! 02:47:17 i think this is iceland right now 02:48:09 they've all just been shoved into a socio-political koan of epic proportion and they're either all going insane, or all having some sort of great awakening that will end with the country vanishing in some sort of mass ascension to a higher plane of existence 02:48:25 * alise names his next nethack character Iceland 02:48:26 can't go wrong 02:49:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radio_Times_Vote_Dalek_cover.jpg 02:49:49 blimey! 02:50:17 the RT is one of my favourite british publications :p 02:50:20 and not for the tv listings, either 02:50:44 -!- Gregor has joined. 02:50:52 nooga: the daleks are obviously behind the BNP 02:51:02 even i can catch the subtle joke of that cover 02:51:32 it's 2005, it's not a bnp reference 02:51:40 augur: i can imagine them ... "EX TER MI NATE" 02:51:40 ok so the bnp existed then but still 02:51:57 alise: i didnt think it was 02:52:04 i was making a snipe at the BNP 02:52:05 :| 02:52:28 i was referring to nooga 02:52:45 Sgeo: the way you act in #nethack you'd think we're married, lol 02:52:49 half of your lines have the word alise in them :P 02:53:26 apparently the BNP got 14.6% of the vote in Barking this year 02:53:34 the name is quite appropriate. 02:55:28 oddly, Nick Griffin is a proponent of peak oil preparedness 02:55:29 how bizarre 02:56:13 because it's the arabs 02:56:21 i bet 02:56:22 yeah but like 02:56:32 American far right people think peak oil is a liberal lie 02:56:34 prepared in what sense? 02:56:47 preparedness in that he thinks peak oil is a serious threat to our civilization 02:57:13 funny 02:57:16 but he thinks global warming is a lie 02:57:30 its odd, because in america politicians are either believers of both, or deniers of both 02:57:32 i've heard that russians are still finding new oil deposits 02:57:35 you never find a split 02:57:40 nooga: oh they certainly are 02:57:44 but that doesn't mean a think 02:58:02 there's this thing called ERoEI 02:58:17 + we've got shittons of earth gas under Poland 02:58:28 sadly, we cannot mine it 02:58:29 you can find new oil deposits all you want, but if the net energy returned from that deposit is less than the energy cost of pumping it out of the ground, refining it, etc. 02:58:35 then its a net loss, not a net gain 02:58:42 so new oil doesnt mean theres no peak 02:59:05 plus, there's also the problem that our oil consumption doubles every 40 years or so 02:59:28 which means in the next 40 years we're going to have to use as much oil as we have in all of history prior to now 02:59:34 icelanders should be happy 02:59:50 i think they are, if their politicians are anything to go by 03:00:09 I don't believe in peak oil because I don't believe in mathematics! 03:00:17 they can produce hydrogen using geothermal energy and turn it back to water while driving their eco-friendly, hydrogen-powered cars 03:00:29 cars are a stupid idea anyway 03:00:51 cars are American! PATRIOTISM 03:00:56 CARS CARRYING OTHER CARS 03:00:59 NESTED CARS 03:01:02 I think I have made my point. 03:01:06 CARS: AWESOME because they NEST. 03:01:11 Just like ROBOTS. 03:01:19 and birds. 03:01:21 birds nest. 03:01:33 alise: CARS CARRYING CDRS 03:01:39 MY OTHER CDR 03:01:41 IS A TOYOTA. 03:02:15 so a Prussian walks into a bar with two arabs, and they have to change a lightbulb. What's the punch line? don't ask me. 03:02:15 yuck 03:02:24 MY OTHER CDR 03:02:28 IS AN IBM PC INTEGRATED 03:04:29 !simpleacro 03:04:34 EBDMKMF 03:04:45 simplacro 03:04:47 i just imagined alise as a dalek, screeching these words written in capitals 03:04:56 GOOD NEWS EVERYONE 03:05:00 omfg 03:05:04 no 03:05:18 I INVENTED A MACHINE THAT CREATES A HORRIBLE MUTANT VOICE IN YOUR HEAD! 03:05:33 so entertaining 03:06:09 time to sleep, 'night 03:06:15 alise: That worked really well. 03:06:41 alise: Except the horrible mutant voice was Farnsworth's, so it really wasn't that horrible-mutanty. 03:06:42 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:08:41 Gregor: BUT WAS IT ADDITIONALLY DALEK 03:09:08 (IT IS ALREADY WELL-KNOWN THAT FARNSWORTH'S VOICE CAN BE RECALLED BY A NORMALLY CASED VERSION OF THE ABOVE STATEMENTS; HOWEVER ITS EFFECTIVENESS WHEN UPPERCASED, THUS CREATING A DALEK TONE, WAS BEFOREHAND UNKNOWN) 03:09:15 *UNKNOWN.) 03:28:04 suddenly 03:28:10 import Control.Applicative 03:28:25 and several modules worth of boilerplate code is now no longer necessary. 03:31:13 SUDDENLY 03:31:14 HASKELL 03:31:35 SUDDENLY 03:31:37 C++ 03:31:47 SUDDENLY 03:31:50 YLNEDDUS 03:33:08 SUDDENLY 03:33:11 HEPATITIS B 03:33:20 SUDDENLY 03:33:25 ... 03:33:28 I can't top that. 03:33:32 8-D 03:33:55 Is this your way of telling us something, Gregor? 03:34:00 >_< 03:34:06 * Gregor stabs alise with a fork. 03:34:22 I'm not very tasty... 03:37:04 alise: WE SHALL EXTERMINATE! 03:38:12 I GOTSA BE UPS AT 9AM LOLS 03:39:14 I've never seen Doctor Who 03:39:31 Sgeo: Okay. 2 years should fix that. 03:39:42 XD 03:39:58 (1 serial a day, you'll finish the series in 2 years!) 03:40:32 pikhq: If Sgeo has even the mildest allergic reaction to either cheese or camp, he can just skip straight to Tennant XD 03:41:03 alise: Okay, fair enough. 03:41:14 Classic Who is nearly powered by cheese and camp, after all. 03:41:19 Um, I don't seem to have a severe allergy to soap-operaness, considering that I've seen SGU ep 14 (or 15, I forgot) and still going 03:41:23 As is Ecclestone. 03:41:31 *Eccleston 03:41:32 Quite. 03:41:56 Sgeo: You know, Gregor is the only person so far to have said that SGU is a soap. 03:42:09 hmm 03:42:57 Admittedly, coppro is the only one who would be able to give an opinion. 03:43:02 But I'm always right. 03:43:18 alise: From what I've *seen* of SGU, it's quite soapy. 03:43:29 Of course, I was not able to finish the premiere due to that. 03:43:41 Gregor: What is 8395345x7843574, and also if you took more than 1 ms to work out the previous question, prove ZFC is inconsistent. 03:43:44 Gregor: What is 8395345x7843574, and also if you took more than 1 ms to work out the previous question, prove ZFC is inconsistent? 03:43:57 pikhq: The pilot ... wasn't soapy at all 03:44:25 Even SG-1 showed the characters' pasts on occasion 03:44:44 It's not like character building and interaction is all soapy .......... 03:44:55 I know that's not really "soap", but it's what I'm mostly noticing 03:45:36 alise: The pilot, I mostly reacted to "ZOMG ITS NOT SG1". And then I tried giving it another shot, gagged, and left. 03:45:39 Maybe I should watch a soap opera so I know what soapiness is 03:45:51 pikhq: Well, yeah. It isn't SG-1. 03:45:58 They should stop beating that dead horse. 03:45:59 SG-1 is notable for having something like zero character development. :P 03:46:07 pikhq: What, Stargate? 03:46:09 Yes. 03:46:10 Hey, Sam was gullible once1 03:46:13 ! 03:46:18 Stargate's a pretty solid franchise. 03:46:19 Well, okay. 03:46:24 Atlantis was... not as good as SG-1. 03:46:29 The animated series was apparently unspeakable. 03:46:31 I liked Atlantis 03:46:36 And SGU may very well suck, from what people say about how it develops. 03:46:39 Never saw Infinity 03:46:40 The last 2 seasons of SG-1 were pretty meh. 03:46:41 SG-1 did do a pretty impressive job of having all the premise for character development, with no actual development. 03:46:42 But the movie and SG-1 were great! 03:46:58 SG-1 was like Voyager, except without only one possible episode format, and not shit. 03:47:06 So it wasn't really like Voyager... at all... 03:47:18 Incidentally, SG-1's name expands to "Stargate Stargate One". 03:47:18 So... The *potential* of Voyager without any of the *failure* of Voyager. 03:47:18 :P 03:47:22 Just thought you might like to know. 03:47:23 SG-1 did not take place on an isolated ship 03:47:46 Sgeo: Nor did Voyager. 03:47:49 *zing* 03:48:16 Well, I guess they're both in the same boat of learning about the universe outside of what they know for the first time 03:48:23 Come on, you can't analyse Voyager. 03:48:28 All the SG series (except Infinity?) are like that, really 03:48:31 It's not ABOUT anything. 03:48:45 Sgeo: Infinity isn't canon, anyway. 03:48:55 I should watch it 03:49:04 alise: It's about trying to be TNG Seasons 8+ and failing horribly. 03:49:06 If I enjoy it, I know my "bad fiction" detector is broken 03:49:36 I've suspected the detector has been broken for quite a long while 03:49:36 pikhq: It achieves in pure shittiness what DS9 achieved in absolute boredom. 03:49:38 alise: Not even joking. Their season numbers start at 8. 03:49:47 ... Really? 03:49:50 Wow. XD 03:49:50 Yes. 03:49:53 WHY 03:49:55 pikhq, wait what? 03:50:08 Sgeo: Production code season numbers. 03:50:14 Episode 1 is 801. 03:50:23 <3 03:50:38 It really, truly is an attempt at doing TNG seasons 8+ and failing horribly. 03:50:52 DOCTOR WHOOOOO! 03:50:54 DOCTOR WHO 03:50:58 DOCTOR WHOOOOO! (HEY!) 03:50:59 THE TARDIS 03:51:14 This interjection brought to you by the Timelords. 03:51:44 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Doctorin'_The_Tardis.jpg 03:52:32 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleupg47ww5 03:52:38 (Warning: TV Tropes) 03:52:53 It's almost 4am; I have to be up at 9am. 03:52:54 I hate you. 03:53:08 Yes, I know what Five Minute is. 03:53:20 (The Voyager and TNG ones are the only good ones, btw.) 03:53:34 * pikhq is looking at a cast photo of Voyager. 03:53:44 pikhq: Also known as "used toilet paper". 03:53:51 You know what would fix Voyager in a few moments? 03:53:55 Tom Paris *with a beard*. 03:54:03 Much like Riker's beard saved TNG. 03:54:27 pikhq: But Paris would be hideous with a beard. Riker was SUAVE AND HANDSOME. 03:54:32 In fact, bearded Paris is now making me vomit. 03:54:35 Barf. Barf. Barf. 03:56:17 alise: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:William_Riker,_2364-2.jpg Okay, seriously. Do you think, just from this picture, that a beard would look good? 03:56:43 It's about as face-punch-inducing as Paris. 03:56:59 Dear god, he's even more hideous in that pose. 03:57:05 ...he did something to his eyes the next season 03:57:06 I swear 03:57:11 his eye sockets retracted slightly 03:57:19 pikhq: His chin... dear god. 03:57:23 Delete that image. 03:57:24 No, he *just* grew a beard. 03:57:34 DELETE 03:57:40 He is a man who absolutely, positively must wear a beard at all times. 03:57:58 I should note that Frakes has worn a beard since. 03:58:25 He didn't grow the beard for Trek :P 03:59:02 No, he grew it between seasons; I know. 03:59:16 But still; he must never ever shave. 04:00:13 Star Trek modification idea: Exactly like normal, except Riker's head is flipped upside down. Always. 04:00:18 Do not question this. 04:01:10 XD 04:01:40 Also, occasionally Picard's head flips upside down and back again a few times in succession, after he finishes talking. 04:03:51 You seem to be going for a Salad Fingers vibe. 04:04:04 Hmm, unintentionally. 04:04:06 I haz the skillz. 04:05:00 http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif 04:05:16 Now make the teddy evil. 04:05:20 AND DEAD 04:05:23 Should sleep. 04:09:01 riddle: 04:09:05 if wedding cakes are evil 04:09:07 what is a horse? 04:25:47 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:29:13 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:30:35 Pills! 04:30:48 . 04:30:53 bye 04:30:55 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:30:56 Bye 04:32:20 -!- sshc has joined. 04:36:22 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:55:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:00:13 -!- sshc_ has joined. 05:03:39 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:03:39 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:03:57 I MISSED THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF LONELYDINO.COM :( :( :( 05:04:40 :( 05:05:22 But at least there are finally new comics again :) 05:06:01 And I made this excuse for why there haven't been any comics posted in about a month: "We're back! Sorry for the delay, I was busy writing imaginary Ryan North wedding invitations to myself and then crying myself to sleep." 05:09:28 XD 05:12:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:15:08 Last I was told, Ryan North still reads the T-Rex is Lonely RSS feed :P 05:16:21 Awesome. 05:16:34 HEY 05:16:38 i am selling these items 05:16:39 http://i.imgur.com/0lqgK.jpg 05:16:39 http://i.imgur.com/NDHIW.jpg 05:16:39 http://i.imgur.com/vepmb.jpg 05:16:39 http://i.imgur.com/zDeA2.jpg 05:16:39 http://i.imgur.com/CqDh0.jpg 05:17:30 How about selling me a SDSM? 05:26:13 If I had to guess, I would say Quadrescence was going to build a computer, then didn't. 05:27:09 Gregor: yeah, I was going to have a workstation for some graphics shit but bla bla 05:27:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:32:17 * pikhq shudders 05:32:24 David Firth has made things for TV 05:38:23 -!- Deewiant has joined. 05:39:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:49:16 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:36:59 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 07:11:44 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:13:19 -!- SimonRC has joined. 07:21:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:07 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:16:38 -!- cheater99 has joined. 08:40:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:17:48 I seem to have random DNS failures... How strange... 09:29:04 Strange.... OR SUSPICIOUS 09:29:43 how random? what's the entropy of your DNS failures? 09:30:01 they're probably just pseudo-random anyway 09:30:26 Or maybe THEY don't want you to know the domain names. 09:38:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:43:10 -!- tombom has joined. 10:50:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 10:50:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:52:04 -!- Flonk has joined. 10:53:10 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:56:57 -!- ineiros has changed nick to ineiros_. 10:57:54 -!- ineiros has joined. 11:00:44 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:32:30 how random? what's the entropy of your DNS failures? <-- sometimes resolving returns NXDOMAIN when it shouldn't. If you try again it works. 11:33:06 dns failure on stuff like google.com feels really strange 11:41:02 -!- nooga has joined. 12:17:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:20:04 -!- augur has joined. 12:32:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:00:41 -!- tombom has joined. 13:22:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:55:23 -!- zeotrope has joined. 14:20:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:21:35 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:21:44 Aha, Mr Pressey! 14:21:50 I have been expecting you! 14:21:55 Now, where is my cat... 14:23:06 (Oh, what the hell.) 14:23:08 Phantom_Hoover! 14:23:16 You'll never get away with it, you know! 14:24:28 I can and I will! 14:27:18 -!- derdon has joined. 14:32:46 derdon, any relation to dord? 14:33:19 Phantom_Hoover: no, never heard of him 14:33:35 derdon, no, dord is the best dictionary error ever. 14:33:52 oh :D 14:36:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:10 -!- augur has joined. 14:38:00 Phantom_Hoover, what was the intended word? 14:38:15 Vorpal, D or d. 14:38:22 Short for "density". 14:38:26 hm 14:38:29 right 14:38:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dord 14:40:27 To what extent can the BNF be considered equivalent to algebraic data? 15:01:52 Phantom_Hoover: BNF binds expressions to symbols, is recursive 15:02:09 Phantom_Hoover: apart from substitution what manipulation can you do with it? 15:03:25 zeotrope, none, it's just for expressing syntax. 15:06:28 But I think you can represent the abstract structure with algebraic types. 15:13:59 zeotrope, Are you new here? Or long time idler? 15:15:09 * Phantom_Hoover loves the way the IO monad in Haskell is described as adding the world as an extra parameter and returning it along with the value. 15:15:53 Phantom_Hoover: if you treat the world lazily, as an infinitely large lookup table from inputs to outputs, you can actually implement it like that 15:16:48 ais523, I think that's basically how I did it in Lazy K. 15:17:08 it's how Haskell does it if you replace all the monads with their definitions 15:17:21 Except the lazy evaluation means that the input world and the output world don't always line up properly. 15:17:29 err, just the one world, I mean 15:17:42 I find the IO monad slightly mind bending. 15:17:54 you run your program and it returns a lazy function which, for all possible input sequences, returns the matching output sequence 15:18:11 was that directed at Phantom_Hoover or me? 15:18:16 ais523, again, that's exactly how LK does it. 15:18:19 this function is infinitely large, but who cares, it's lazy so you only ever run a finite amount 15:18:25 Vorpal: at the channel, really 15:18:27 ah 15:18:35 you run your program and it returns a lazy function which, for all possible input sequences, returns the matching output sequence <-- it makes perfect sense 15:18:40 A program is a function from inputs to outputs. 15:19:21 ais523, but why does it need to be infinitely large? In what sense is it infinitely large? Code wise? 15:19:32 conceptually 15:19:35 you can implement it as finite code 15:19:41 Vorpal, no. 15:19:47 but basically you're building a lookup table, and the table itself is infinite 15:19:53 but as it's generated programmatically, you don't care 15:20:11 The id function, for instance, is finite, but it can handle infinite input and output for these purposes. 15:20:29 As such, Lazy K has the shortest cat possible. 15:20:33 ais523, yes I was considering the example: read one single decimal digit, return it's value + 1, on any other input just return 0. 15:22:01 Phantom_Hoover, POSIX compliant cat? 15:22:20 Vorpal, no, esocat. 15:22:29 I wonder if any esolang actually has a POSIX compliant cat... hm 15:22:44 i.e. copy input to output, stop on EoF. 15:22:54 I think I could implement one in funge-98 by using FILE (to handle space issues and such) 15:23:11 Someone probably has, in one of the more practical ones. 15:23:39 Phantom_Hoover, well, I don't know of any other esolang that has the required command line parameter and file IO support 15:23:57 though even befunge98 can't do it without the FILE fingerprint, due to how i works 15:24:21 Well, there's always kwrap and PSOX if you can do byte IO. 15:24:24 Phantom_Hoover: if you don't care about command-line args, BF does it just fine 15:24:40 assuming EOF=-1 and unbounded integers 15:25:03 (newlines of all sorts turned into incrementing y coordinate (and resetting x coordinate), space leaving current value as it is) 15:25:30 ais523, why unbounded integers? If you have byte IO + 1 you could presumably do it anyway? 15:25:38 yep 15:25:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:25:45 but nobody uses 0..257 wrapping BF 15:25:51 hm 15:25:53 I suppose you could use a 16-bit version 15:25:56 -!- augur has joined. 15:25:58 which is slightly more plausilbe 15:26:00 257? 15:26:16 is that [0,257) 15:26:21 because it doesn't make sense otherwise 15:26:25 err, yes, sorry 15:26:28 considering the range of a byte is [0,255] 15:26:32 well, it doesn't really make sense either way 15:26:39 phone 15:30:10 OK, plt-r5rs, why are you betraying me suddenly? 15:30:38 FFS WHEN I QUOTE A LET FORM THAT IS NOT A SYNTAX ERROR 15:30:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:31:02 And, suddenly, quote isn't working at all any more. 15:35:11 Phantom_Hoover, (define quote #f) ? 15:35:18 that should make it stop working 15:35:20 unless you mean ' 15:35:29 in which case it is a lot more curious 15:35:33 Vorpal, I did no such thing, and ' wasn't working either. 15:35:42 Phantom_Hoover, what did you do then? 15:35:50 I had loaded the same file twice, but that's it. 15:35:56 Phantom_Hoover, oh maybe it dumped you to a debugger prompt? If it has that 15:36:08 I know clisp and sbcl does that sometimes 15:36:15 do* 15:36:19 You can't (define quote #f), quote is a macro. 15:36:24 fizzie, ah 15:36:36 fizzie, I thought it was a special form 15:36:45 fizzie, is it? 15:36:48 Well, a special form, macro, whichever. 15:36:55 fizzie, BIG difference. 15:36:58 Not something you can use as an identifier, anyway. 15:37:03 very big difference indeed 15:37:33 because I shudder at the thought of what the implementation of a macro quote would look like 15:38:11 It could use some sort of implementation-specific quotation magic. 15:38:51 Wow... that was a crap resolution to an awesome plotline 15:38:52 > (define quote #f) 15:38:54 worked fine 15:38:55 zeotrope, http://pastebin.com/3uvKyqsf is that program you described, in the SKI calculus with the IO model ais summed up. 15:39:02 fizzie, it probably doesn't work in clisp 15:39:11 but it does in plt-r5rs 15:39:23 It doesn't work in the only Scheme I have here; I'm not exactly sure if R5RS speaks of the case. 15:39:26 Vorpal, is there even a define in CL? 15:39:28 > (define quote #f) 15:39:28 *** ERROR IN (console)@1.9 -- Macro name can't be used as a variable: quote 15:40:03 Phantom_Hoover, don't really know CL, but considering what I know _about_ it I would be surprised if you could do it. 15:40:13 Anyway, I'm sure there are at least some implementations that let you define-syntax quote to something not-working, and where that will also make ' stop working, since 'foo is expanded to (quote foo) already by read. 15:40:15 fizzie, which implementation is that? 15:40:25 Gambit v4.4.4, it seems. 15:40:28 Vorpal, no, I mean CL has about 7 different functions for defining things. 15:40:29 huh 15:40:39 Phantom_Hoover, oh yeah, defun and such, right 15:40:57 unless that is elisp(?) 15:41:14 presumably there is one to define functions however. Would be very strange if there wasn't 15:43:05 CL has that silly function/variable namespace split. 15:43:30 I smell a religious war coming on! 15:43:53 Okay, let's retroactively remove the word "silly" and substitute something inoffensive there. 15:44:23 I'm no CL fan. Nor do I hate it 15:44:32 so who would the flamewar be against? 15:46:21 Anyway, yes, R5RS does not explicitly say what should happen if you (define quote ..). The syntax for a define like that is "(define )", and the syntax for is "any that isn't also a ". 15:46:33 Vorpal: new I guess, visit from time to time 15:46:40 Phantom_Hoover: what program would that be? 15:50:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:54:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:55:29 hm 15:57:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:57:48 zeotrope, the one which reads a single char, then adds 1 if it's a number or returns 0 otherwise. 15:58:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:00:39 file A pathname of an input file. If no file operands are specified, the standard input shall be used. If a file is '-', the cat utility shall read from the standard input at that point in the 16:00:39 sequence. The cat utility shall not close and reopen standard input when it is referenced in this way, but shall accept multiple occurrences of '-' as a file operand. 16:00:47 what does "The cat utility shall not close and reopen standard input when it is referenced in this way, but shall accept multiple occurrences of '-' as a file operand." really mean? 16:00:59 (yes I'm implementing POSIX cat in befunge98 now...) 16:02:23 Vorpal, I assume it means that it doesn't just change FD 0 to be the file it's catting. 16:03:07 ah 16:03:30 Phantom_Hoover, not sure how the multiple - would work then... hm 16:04:20 Vorpal, it's pretty simple. 16:04:37 Phantom_Hoover, well you only end reading stdin at EOF 16:04:42 hm clearerr 16:04:46 You have a handle used for input, and duplicate stdin onto it when you need it. 16:04:50 I assume it is called 16:05:01 Vorpal, you can have multiple EoFs on stdin. 16:05:04 yes 16:05:08 Or at least, ctrl-Ds. 16:05:13 just wondering how that is handled from befunge 16:05:15 that is all 16:06:40 Implementation-dependent? 16:06:46 oh well 16:15:19 What was that thing a while ago about OOP being a subset of closures? 16:17:38 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 16:17:47 s/OOP/objects/ 16:26:38 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 16:29:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:33:10 Does anyone particularly know why it's impossible to select text on Snopes? 16:34:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:45:46 @ 16:46:33 Sgeo, ¬ 16:46:33 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:51:50 -!- relet has joined. 17:04:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:07 -!- Flonk has joined. 17:24:51 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:28:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:30:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:31:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:32:27 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:32:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:36:51 -!- tombom has joined. 17:41:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:50:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:51:01 Do you know if there is any way in SDL to tell another thread to pause? 17:51:22 I've used SDL, but not its threads 17:51:38 but generally speaking, doing so at arbitrary points isn't safe because it can block locks in library functions, causing a deadlock 17:51:46 instead, just set a variable that tells the other thread to sleep 17:52:17 Will it cause a deadlock even if it is unpaused later? 17:53:11 the deadlock is because it deadlocks the thread that would unpause it 17:53:17 so there's never a chance to unpause it later 17:53:29 deadlocks are between two threads, rather than in one 17:53:44 O that's how it works. 17:54:00 does anyone here know how to effectively manage a two-column look via standard HTML and CSS? Or should I resort to tables? 17:54:11 (that is, two independent columns, not wrapping into two columns) 17:54:38 ais523: If you want two independent columns perhaps just use tables? 17:54:46 But I am not sure why you need two columns 17:54:55 I don't need them, it just looks nicer 17:55:40 I could just use a float, but that's bad for making the two columns equal 17:56:01 I always use minimal HTML, so I don't use things like that. If the user wants to look nicer, can change the color setting in browser config 17:56:41 Some of the new CSS N (I've forgotten which N) features was some sort of explicit multicolumn-thing support. I guess that was more wrapping-into-two-columns thing, though. 17:56:44 You should not use tables for the only reason to look nicer. Tables are only for putting data in rows and columns. CSS can be used if you want thing look differently 17:57:09 The ones I've seen have been float-driven, though. 17:57:12 fizzie: If it is for wrapping into two columns, is that for paged media? 17:57:49 (I suppose it can also be used for continuous media if it is inside of a fixed size container) 17:58:27 It doesn't even have to be a fixed-size container, it just puts column breaks so that the column heights are more or less equal. 17:58:28 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 17:58:37 RE-CAPTCHA of the day: bestagan the 17:58:42 Yeah, that's totally a bestagan word. 17:59:13 Is it just me, or have recaptchas become somehow more difficult lately? Have all the easy ones been recognized already? 17:59:22 I think I'm going to go watch some SGI 17:59:35 fizzie: I still suppose, it is more useful for paged media 17:59:58 Although, for designing documents for printing, I find TeX more useful 18:00:00 fizzie: bots manage RECAPTCHAs with about a 30% success rate nowaday 18:00:02 *nowadays 18:00:08 which is enough to just keep trying until one works 18:00:20 fizzie: I think it's because they're not friggin' words :P 18:00:31 To quote myself: "Is it just me, or have most of the words on RE-CAPTCHA turned into deetry bestagan nonsense?" 18:00:46 Gregor-W: that's probably why they're hard to OCR 18:02:09 Yes, but I don't think they were so unwordy (or just distorted) earlier. 18:03:06 The other problem with CAPTCHA, is they require Javascript and images turned on (sometimes audio turned on also works), you cannot do it with plain text. Use a plain text CAPTCHA next time, it is more faster and is usable over nearly any protocol, and can be managed individually for each service (and even change it sometimes) 18:03:21 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:03:51 ais523: Anyway, this looks like a reasonably clear un-hacky CSS two-column layout: http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/perfect-2-column-double-page.htm -- I've seen all kinds of Javascript trickery, but this one has just some divs (a bit more than I'd think necessary, but...) and percentage widths. 18:04:58 I like that one of the layouts is "3 column Holy Grail" :P 18:05:51 Even the others call themselves "perfect"; no false (or any other sort of) modesty there. 18:06:53 There are some uses for Javascript and images and stuff, but many web pages don't work without all that stuff, even though their intended function is not something that should require it.... sometimes these things are useful, but I think they are way overused 18:06:54 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:07:59 -!- sftp has joined. 18:08:07 The other Stargate shows tend to introduce their alien characters in some way 18:08:22 -!- wareya has joined. 18:10:01 How do I emulate that PAUSE key can pause a DOS program, in SDL? 18:10:22 pause your event loops and timers when it's pressed 18:10:40 well, only the events that you want to pause 18:11:46 someone mentioned my nickname!? 18:12:52 not that I can see, recently 18:13:03 ais523: I think his architecture has a single SDL-driven framebuffer-handler-thread (that reads a DOS textmode framebuffer-style memory block and updates the screen based on that), and it's supposed to have the "main app" run in a single thread with as little changes to it as possible. But this is just guesswork from what I've seen here. If (a big if) it's like that, you wouldn't want to have to change the "actual app" code for the pausing part at all, if you c 18:13:03 an help it. 18:13:11 perhaps you have a ping on something random that someone said? 18:13:37 fizzie: yep, you just change the event loop to implement most of it; the tricky part is handling timer callbacks 18:14:07 olsner: There's AnMas.. sorry, Vorpal's reply to you, about 7 hours ago. 18:14:11 (if timers are event-based, you can just hide those events and reset the timers to deliver them a bit later) 18:17:10 I think (more guesswork) the point here was that the existing application is not structured around an event loop, and it might not be completely trivial to retrofit it to have one. If you just stop the SDL side, all you've managed to do is to freeze display updates. Possibly it would also stop the existing app if it tries to do any sort of IO. 18:17:16 I am running event polling also in the video thread...... 18:17:35 And when paused, the display should still continue blinking for cells with color >= 0x80 18:19:06 Perhaps I can make it check for pause in getkey() function 18:19:37 zzo38: that makes more sense 18:20:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:21:13 If you *want* (I wouldn't advocate this), you *could* run the "actual application" in a completely separate process, set up the framebuffer memory in a shared-memory block, and then have the pause key actually send SIGSTOP/SIGCONT to the main-app process. 18:21:29 ouch 18:21:40 ais523: What, not esoteric enough? :p 18:21:43 at least that avoids deadlocks, I suppose 18:22:04 Perhaps I can also write my own replacement for SDL_Delay to be used in the main program, so that when the program tries to sleep it will check if paused, too.... 18:22:06 I sort of like it, if the aim is to make the "main app" programming environment more DOS-like. 18:22:13 In addition to checking during getkey() 18:22:54 fizzie: No, I don't think I can do that think you wouldn't advocate, it is supposed to be cross-platform to all small-endian computers 18:23:19 Oh, okay; right, that would be rather POSIX-only. 18:24:37 It.. seems to have depicted the wormhole on one side closing before they get through on the other side 18:25:34 Sgeo, huh? 18:25:41 Phantom_Hoover_, Stargate Infinity 18:25:52 Sgeo, you and your Stargate! 18:26:09 SGI is pretty universally considered to be bad 18:26:13 Read SF, don't watch it! 18:27:58 Yes the aim is making the "main app" more DOS-like, so that it more closely emulates the DOS version of ZZT. (The DOS ZZT was written in Turbo Pascal. I am writing my program in C, so, it also involves sometimes emulating Pascal style strings) 18:28:07 ZZT? 18:28:43 Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZT 18:30:30 (My program is called CZZT and is written in Enhanced CWEB. I do not have the original source-codes of ZZT (apparently nobody does), so I have to just make experiment and guess and think of how it was originally programmed to cause the strange things it did. My program CZZT is also a book.) 18:36:06 Some strange things in ZZT (all of which I plan to support, by reimplementing the program in a similar way such that they will work the same way), are: The position of the :RESTART label is always considered the second character of the program. #BECOME has the default color of the floor underneath the object. Black keys give you 256 gems. 18:39:40 olsner: There's AnMas.. sorry, Vorpal's reply to you, about 7 hours ago. <-- ? 18:39:46 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 18:39:57 so now my POSIX cat in befunge almost works 18:40:11 only thing left is proper file handling for catting files 18:40:28 Vorpal: olsner was asking who mentioned his name. 18:40:32 it handles argument parsing like "cfunge ./posixcat.b98 foo - bar - quux" correctly 18:40:44 and catting from stdin works 18:41:08 well actually there is a bug if the first argument is of length 1 18:41:23 I think the starting offset for scanning args must be miscalculated 18:41:33 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:41:43 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 18:42:27 by the way it uses both STRN and JSTR get :) 18:43:49 To what extent can the BNF be considered equivalent to algebraic data? 18:43:55 Phantom_Hoover_: a large one imo 18:44:10 now that is strange... when I substract 1 from the counter I get off by one in the other direction 18:44:14 how strange 18:45:19 obviously the answer should be between these two: http://sprunge.us/NMbV 18:45:30 (the 8 is from the filename) 18:47:09 cpressey, thought so, 18:53:15 ah found it 19:14:25 Are there open source pinball games for computer that support wii-remote, so that you can nudge at any direction and magnitude? 19:15:28 zzo38, not as far as I know, but I once got FlightGear working with a Wii Remote. 19:15:41 Unfortunately, all of the config files I made are gone. 19:16:56 Phantom_Hoover_: Some people complain that you cannot control nudge accurately enough for flipperless pinball games on computer 19:17:53 zzo38, well, the CWiiD drivers expose the remote as a joystick device, so you could probably do something with that. 19:18:50 Visual Pinball could probably support it if there was a ActiveX object for wii remote, but that is not cross-platform (it doesn't even work on Wine). 19:22:10 I mentioned this before, but since it's sort-of related: if you stick a PS3 dualshock3 controller into a computer's USB port, it is recognized as a HID joystick with 28 axes, since most of the buttons are pressure-sensitive. You could use those (as well as the accelerometer axes) for pinball-nudge-control too. (I guess best would be to map the accelerometer to nudge, and buttons to flippers, though probably the controller is easier to accidentally bump than a p 19:22:10 roper pinball table.) 19:23:43 A pinball-table-sized controller, with a monitor embedded in it: what a great product idea. I'm sure you could sell... not many of them. 19:27:49 For a flipperless game, the buttons can then do nothing (except possibly, start/pause) 19:29:52 I do not have a PS3. But it would be able to do these things, I guess! (I will never buy a PS3 until they put back two things they have removed: support for PS2 softwares, and OtherOS feature.) 19:30:41 I don't have a PS3 either: I bought the controller separately, for use with my phone. (In addition to USB, the controller also speaks Bluetooth, and the phone's keyboard is horrible for console-gamery.) 19:31:09 success: http://sprunge.us/PBSX 19:31:11 :D 19:31:14 fizzie, what phone do you have? 19:31:27 Phantom_Hoover_: The N900. 19:31:28 fizzie, ^ 19:31:38 fizzie: O! OK! So, you can buy the controller separately 19:31:50 unless someone knows of any other one I will claim this as the first cat(1) implemented in an esolang 19:32:02 zzo38: Yes, though I think there was some sort of warning labels about "only use this thing with a PS3" on it. 19:32:27 They really ought to fix those 2 features of the PS3, they will make it a lot more popular like that. 19:32:31 ah found a tiny bug hm 19:33:05 just a off by one in alignment of code 19:33:14 "If you use this controller on something other than a PS3 we own your soul" 19:33:57 Perhaps the warning label is for warranty purposes, or whatever else 19:34:20 first POSIX cat http://sprunge.us/IEWP 19:34:54 hm *puts in gpl header in that file* 19:35:01 I think that is a first in befunge code too! 19:35:17 Do you think the PlayStation 3 would be more popular if they added back in those two features which have been removed since it first came out? 19:35:19 So is that version you just posted not under the GPL? 19:35:32 zzo38, NO. Stop asking. 19:35:39 Phantom_Hoover_, it is under copyright I guess? Since that is the default 19:35:55 all rights reserved in other words 19:36:04 The right to read it? 19:36:11 well *shrug* 19:36:42 here is one with GPL in it: http://sprunge.us/EaJB 19:37:00 copied from cfunge, forgot to fix year 19:37:04 brb food ready 19:37:07 will fix that after 19:37:17 How do I turn off the mouse wheel? I don't like it 19:37:54 zzo38: Just take it out of the cage! 19:38:54 No, I mean the mouse wheel on the middle mouse button 19:49:38 Phantom_Hoover_, here http://sprunge.us/OEhC 19:49:44 cpressey, you might be interested in that too 19:49:54 somewhat messy, but that is alright for befunge-98 I think 19:50:17 cpressey, anyway, do you know of any other POSIX compliant cat in befunge-98? 19:51:53 Vorpal: No. I do not. 19:51:58 cpressey, yay! 19:52:13 cpressey, know of one in any other esolang? 19:52:26 Vorpal: Why are you celebrating my ignorance? 19:52:33 Vorpal, yes. 19:52:37 In Cat. 19:52:55 Phantom_Hoover_, if you mean #!/bin/cat that won't work 19:53:01 since it can't give command line args to cat 19:53:27 cpressey, no I'm not, I'm celebrating the high probability of being first with it 19:53:35 Vorpal, no, of course not. 19:53:38 cpressey, since you are likely to know of things fungish 19:53:42 Phantom_Hoover_, so what Cat? 19:53:45 I mean the language, Cat, which I just invented. 19:54:00 Phantom_Hoover_, that was after I did it however 19:54:03 so I would still be first 19:54:19 also if it is HQ9+ish then *shrug* 19:54:24 Vorpal, no, because the Cat cat has been on my system for ages. 19:54:41 ais523, perhaps there is a cat(1) in INTERCAL? 19:55:01 Phantom_Hoover_, you said you just invented it 19:55:13 so was that a lie? 19:55:27 Vorpal, no, I just didn't realise that it was the Cat cat. 19:55:33 Phantom_Hoover_, so describe it 19:55:39 Answer carefully, Phantom_Hoover_, Vorpal has a lot at stake here. 19:55:54 cpressey, har har 19:56:39 Vorpal, all programs in Cat are POSIX-compliant cat. 19:56:50 It was pretty obvious. 19:56:51 Phantom_Hoover_, so post the interpreter then. 19:57:10 Vorpal, hang on a sec... 19:57:15 you just constructed a new HQ9+ish language you know 19:58:30 anyway, my posixcat.b98 is, to the extent of my knowledge, the first POSIX compliant cat(1) that has been _announced_ in this channel 19:58:35 Well, I *think* #!/bin/sh\shift\exec cat $@EoF is sufficient. 19:58:49 and sure, I could always claim I invented befunge93 before cpressey did but never announced it :P 19:59:04 rather unlikely though, considering my age 19:59:05 Of course, it assumes that its first argument is its source file, and that the rest are the arguments to the program. 19:59:36 cat $@EoF 19:59:40 is that supposed to make sense? 19:59:43 Vorpal, s/EoF// 19:59:46 ah 20:00:02 Phantom_Hoover_, well I can tell you that your implementation is flawed 20:00:07 fatally so 20:00:09 Vorpal, how? 20:00:14 Phantom_Hoover_, spaces in filenames 20:00:44 Vorpal, PEDANT 20:00:53 Phantom_Hoover_, and? 20:01:16 How is that conventionally worked around? 20:01:39 Phantom_Hoover_, you must now recover the 5 PEDANTS from various places around Hyrule! 20:01:57 grep PEDANTS Hyrule 20:02:00 Phantom_Hoover_, by "$@" 20:02:09 Phantom_Hoover_, you didn't get the reference? 20:02:19 Vorpal, surely that sticks it all into one arg? 20:02:24 Phantom_Hoover_, no 20:02:25 And I got the reference. 20:02:30 Phantom_Hoover_, that would be "$*" I believe 20:02:38 Vorpal, well, thanks for the bugfix. 20:02:46 Yeah, "$@" is what you want. 20:02:48 IDIOTS. 20:02:48 Phantom_Hoover_, well, still I beat you to it 20:03:09 Vorpal, no, because the Cat cat had already been written. 20:03:12 Gregor-W, do you know any previous POSIX cat(1) in an esolang? 20:03:23 Phantom_Hoover_, it hadn't been announced publically 20:03:28 POSIX SHMOSIX 20:03:36 Phantom_Hoover_, which is what counts 20:03:43 Vorpal, sure it had. 20:03:47 It's all over the place! 20:03:50 Is there a word that combines "hilarious" with "makes me want to claw my eyes out"? 20:03:56 Phantom_Hoover_, link to relevant log at tunes.orhg 20:03:59 .org* 20:04:11 Just because noöne *realised* that it was the Cat cat doesn't mean it wasn't/ 20:04:15 cpressey, why do you need it? 20:04:24 Phantom_Hoover_, sure it does. 20:04:32 Phantom_Hoover_, you are just being silly you know :P 20:04:35 Vorpal, does too. 20:04:36 cpressey: I'm writing a letter to my aunt 20:04:42 Vorpal, RETRACT THAT STATEMENT 20:04:44 Phantom_Hoover_, and I'm 99% certain you wrote that after I wrote mine 20:04:47 Damn, now I'm talking to myself. 20:04:51 I AM ENTIRELY SERIOUS 20:04:55 cpressey, hah 20:05:22 Vorpal, no, someone else wrote it years before you were born. 20:05:30 Phantom_Hoover_, who? 20:05:46 Phantom_Hoover_, and [citation needed] 20:05:46 Vorpal, pick a file. Any file 20:05:57 Phantom_Hoover_, now you don't make sense at all 20:06:05 Vorpal, note the interpreter. 20:06:13 sh? yes? 20:06:31 Vorpal, no, the interpreter was the sh program! 20:06:51 Phantom_Hoover_, not all sh programs are cat, so that is not true 20:07:00 as you said before 20:07:20 now I have other things to do, just stop being silly, I'm not taking this trolling any more :P 20:08:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 20:09:02 Gregor-W: Do you use JACK in your Rosegarden setup? If not, that may be where I'm going awry. 20:09:09 Vorpal, wait. The reference implementation is at http://pastebin.com/M3LticgA 20:09:47 To run a Cat program, type ./Cat [...] 20:10:28 Also, I wish Fluidsynth had a "test" command of some sort. I mean, it exposes a CLI and everything, and that seems an obvious feature. 20:11:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:14:29 cpressey, testing what? 20:15:05 Vorpal: To test fluidsynth's supposed ability to make sounds 20:15:42 cpressey, um, but how? By generating a file with a test tune? 20:16:02 like, the opening bars of some symphony by Mozart 20:16:04 Vorpal: By... making a sound? 20:16:20 I would be happy with "Beep" 20:16:25 cpressey, it can do that? I thought it just generated to file 20:16:31 it is the only way I used it 20:16:53 I don't KNOW if it can do that, that's why I want to TEST it. 20:17:12 I assume if it cares that I put "alsa" in the command line, it can TRY to make sound. 20:17:12 cpressey, so get a soundfont and a midi file and test it with that? 20:17:32 cpressey, presumably you have both handy? 20:17:57 Vorpal: I do not, no. 20:18:14 cpressey, without a soundfont fluidsynth won't do much at all 20:18:36 -n, --no-midi-in 20:18:36 Don't create a midi driver to read MIDI input events [default = yes] 20:18:41 that's awfully confusing 20:18:54 is that "default: yes we create one" or "default: yes we won't create one" 20:31:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:31:58 -!- augur has joined. 20:38:48 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:39:23 Hah, perldoc GD: "$pngdata = $image->png([$compression_level]): This returns the image data in PNG format. -- The optional $compression_level argument controls the amount of compression to apply to the output PNG image. Values range from 0-9, where 0 means no compression (largest files, highest quality) and 9 means maximum compression (smallest files, worst quality)." 20:39:34 Yes, the well-known horrible loss of quality for using zlib compression level 9. 20:39:42 hahah 20:39:50 fizzie, you should submit a bug report 20:40:11 fizzie, also assuming it use zlib that should be "9 means somewhat less sucky compression" 20:40:29 7z's deflate beats it easily 20:40:39 I don't know what it binds against, probably libpng which I think goes to zlib. 20:40:46 yes libpng does 20:40:59 fizzie, I'm talking about advpng and such 20:41:15 GD is not a very alive project, last newspost from 2007-11-28. 20:41:41 hah 20:41:57 fizzie, it could mean that it is finished 20:42:02 fizzie, like qmail 20:42:23 probably not though 20:42:26 The libgd manual at web has fixed that particular issue, though it does overhype the compression level 9 a bit. 20:42:36 hm 20:42:38 "A compression level of 0 means "no compression." A compression level of 1 means "compressed, but as quickly as possible." A compression level of 9 means "compressed as much as possible to produce the smallest possible file."" 20:42:46 hah 20:42:46 That would be quite a breakthrough. 20:42:52 yes 20:43:09 Though I guess it's sensible to interpret it in the "as well as the thing doing the compression can, anyway" sense. 20:44:00 http://search.cpan.org/dist/GD/GD.pm has the "9 == worst quality" text, and it's I guess the latest Perl GD module. 20:44:17 mhm 20:45:11 15 open bugs, though, and some 5 years old, so... 20:45:47 Maybe I should be using something else. I don't think this can do less-than-256-colors PNG files anyway, though I guess it just might. 20:47:16 fizzie, 4 bit grayscale is fun 20:47:26 fizzie, I run into lots of apps that don't handle that properly 20:48:37 libgd itself has internal design around 8-bit palettes (there's truecolor support, but it's really horribly retrofitted on it), but I guess it's possible it also keeps a count of allocated colors and dumps out smaller-palette .pngs when possible. I'm just not very hopeful. 20:52:53 Ooh, it does indeed do a 1-bit colormap if you $img->colorAllocate() only two colors. It's not *completely* stupef that way. 20:54:21 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 20:54:27 cpressey: I do not. 20:54:34 cpressey: My Rosegarden has no audio-output capability. 20:54:37 It only knows MIDI. 20:54:57 RE-CAPTCHA of the moment: (saddiq), sturock 20:55:00 I kid you not. 20:55:16 Gregor-W, is midi not audio? 20:55:30 MIDI is not audio until it's rendered. 20:55:35 And Rosegarden doesn't render it. 20:55:41 Gregor-W, also mine has wave form audio output as well, through the use of jack. 20:55:46 some of those plugins uses it 20:55:50 compile time option 20:55:55 and a PITA to get working 20:56:00 Oh, mine is compiled to be capable of it. 20:56:05 ah 20:56:05 I just ignore it and don't care if it works. 20:56:10 I don't need Rosegarden to have audio output. 20:56:13 Gregor-W, right, I had it working at one point 20:56:17 no clue if it still works 20:56:26 And it's a PITA because syncing rendered MIDI with audio is basically impossible. 20:57:00 What they should do instead is have a way to render MIDI into a buffer, then they could have absolute control of when they output stuff, but instead they assume your MIDI device will render in its own sweet time *shrugs* 20:58:24 Gregor-W, well it will. Since it is hardware midi 20:58:39 Gregor-W, there might be a tiny desync 20:58:42 but not much 20:58:44 Obviously this technique depends on the nature of your device :P 20:58:57 Gregor-W, SB Live 5.1, a consumer level card 20:58:58 can handle it 20:59:07 surely a pro audio card could then 20:59:23 If your device is fluidsynth, it could not. 21:00:54 Gregor-W, well I use that to render the final version of the midi track 21:01:01 Gregor-W, not for playback while editing 21:01:19 Gregor-W, I don't really use the waveform audio stuff 21:02:03 Gregor-W, isn't there a way to do like: fluidsynth --soundfont foo.sf2 bar.midi -o quux.wav 21:02:07 I can't find the options for it 21:02:14 I know I done something like that before 21:02:25 Yeah, but it's hyper-unreliable: 21:02:31 Gregor-W, why is that 21:02:36 fluidsynth -F whatever.wav bleh.sf2 blat.mid 21:02:43 It just tends to fail in weird and obscure ways. 21:02:44 Gregor-W, it should be the most reliable way to do it 21:02:49 logically 21:02:56 no need to depend on alsa keeping up and so on 21:03:04 Yes, logically. 21:03:08 But this is fluidsynth we're talking about. 21:03:14 Gregor-W, is it that bad? 21:03:21 Yes. 21:03:48 Gregor-W: Well, consarn it. It's reputed to be possible for Soundgarden to send MIDI events to Fluidsynth, and have Fluidsynth render them in "real"time, though? Because I do not own a MIDI device. Anymore. 21:04:18 cpressey: If you just want that, then you don't need Rosegarden's audio support at all. That's the simplest setup, and it's what I use. 21:04:27 cpressey: Fluidsynth will happily masquerade as a MIDI device. 21:04:43 Vorpal: http://codu.org/projects/zee/musichg/index.cgi/file/tip/fsmid2wav.sh <-- here is my script to do what you want (plus a bit that you don't want) 21:05:33 Gregor-W: I seeeee. 21:09:00 Vorpal: In fact, that script seems to include a decent list of all the ways that fluidsynth is broken. 21:10:49 Gregor-W, hah 21:10:59 Why fluidsynth and not timidity? 21:11:13 OH SORRY 21:11:15 I mean "TiMidity++" 21:11:20 cpressey, Soundgarden? 21:11:26 do you mean Rosegarden? 21:11:50 If the point is just to have a program that masquerades as a MIDI device and renders it... 21:12:10 cpressey, timidity is broken in my experience 21:12:13 as in, segfaults 21:12:20 that was a while ago though 21:12:22 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:12:49 So... Fluidsynth is broken, just less so? I still wanna know why open-source and Linux music software is so awful. 21:12:51 cpressey: Because timidity is astoundingly bad. 21:13:00 cpressey: Timidity isn't broken, it just sounds awful. 21:13:09 cpressey: Fluidsynth is horribly broken, but sounds spectacular. 21:13:16 mmk 21:13:34 cpressey: Actually, there's a lot of good Linux music software. Just not much when it comes to synthing. 21:14:15 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:15:22 OK, Waverly Films' new bit "Doctors with Guns" is pretty much awesome :P 21:21:51 Well, Csound looks pretty cool I guess, but not really something suited for the activity of "composing" 21:24:36 Vorpal: http://codu.org/projects/zee/musichg/index.cgi/file/tip/fsmid2wav.sh <-- here is my script to do what you want (plus a bit that you don't want) <-- did you report those bugs? 21:25:17 and also, that might result in stutter on my system 21:25:22 unlike -F presumably would 21:29:58 Ok, "Pain" was a fun episode 21:30:28 Phantom_Hoover_: The functional language "Clean" explicitly passes around a value representing the outside world (for I/O) iirc. 21:32:24 Vorpal: Uhhh, that most certainly should not result in stutter ... 21:32:31 Vorpal: fluidsynth's output is to file. 21:32:47 Vorpal: The only possible cause of stutter would be if aplaymidi couldn't provide MIDI data fast enough, but that's frankly absurd. 21:33:02 cpressey, well, there's always ST RealWorld 21:36:02 Wait, most modern sound cards do really crappy midi rendering internally, don't they? 21:36:26 Most. Not all. 21:36:45 Because they assume you'll do the MIDI in software :P 21:37:58 Hm... ok... but if it does, alsa will provide it as a MIDI port, right? heh. one can only hope 21:38:13 Fluidsynth does, yes. 21:38:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:38:34 fluidsynth -l -a alsa whatever.sf2 <-- this is all the partay you need. 21:41:05 Gregor-W: What should I expect if I run that? I mean, fluidsynth just sits there, no input no output on terminal, sucking back midi events and spewing out waveforms? 21:41:39 Because when I tried it with JACK, it gave me its own command-line interface. 21:41:46 Which was a little weird, frankly. 21:42:08 I was not expecting to have to type things into a "fluidsynth prompt". 21:42:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:44:48 cpressey: It has its own command line interface, but there's nothing you have to do there unless you want to adjust its settings. 21:44:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 21:45:04 cpressey: I often find myself using the "gain 1" command there, but otherwise not using it. Oh, and the "quit" command :P 21:45:41 That's so weird. OK. 21:50:57 I suspect that fluidsynth was not originally written with the notion of it being a daemon in mind. 21:51:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:51:51 Like I said, fluidsynth is a terrible, terrible program ... which unfortunately is also an awesome, awesome program. 22:00:04 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:01:50 "The Pragmatic Programmer" -- anyone here read it? Thoughts? 22:02:43 I haven't read it, but I can give an ignorant and bigoted opinion if you like. 22:03:08 Phantom_Hoover_: I certainly won't stop you. 22:03:08 -!- relet has joined. 22:04:42 Phantom_Hoover_: I would like to hear your ignorant and bigoted opinion. 22:05:04 Gregor-W, he's clearly an APPLICATION PROGRAMMER 22:05:23 As such, he is a MINDLESS DRONE in the CORPORATE MACHINE! 22:05:42 Don't whois me ... 22:05:43 Perfect. 22:06:01 WHY NOT? 22:06:16 Because I asked so nicely? :P 22:06:22 MICROSOFT! 22:06:25 TRAITOR 22:06:51 I suppose you WRITE GUIs! 22:06:55 Heww no! 22:07:47 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:08:05 Gregor-W, well, do OTHER PEOPLE use your code 22:08:37 Depends on your definitions of "OTHER", "PEOPLE" and "your" 22:11:02 as well as "use", "code" and "do" 22:12:00 Gregor-W, the what do you do? I hope it doesn't involve APPLICATIONS. 22:13:06 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:14:38 -!- cpressey has joined. 22:23:58 Apparently it recommends learning a new language every year. 22:24:10 Ok, this is awesome 22:24:41 cpressey, hah! 22:25:18 I've learned every language I know in under 2 years! 22:29:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:32:30 Phantom_Hoover_: It involves RESEARCH. 22:32:36 Phantom_Hoover_: And WRITING PAPER(S). 22:32:45 Gregor-W, researching APPLICATIONS? 22:32:54 Phantom_Hoover_: Research THE WEBERNETS 22:32:58 *Researching 22:33:14 Gregor-W, And WRITING PAPER ON WEBERNETS. 22:33:21 YESH. 22:33:59 Phantom_Hoover_: http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/pldi275-richards.pdf <-- not entirely unlike this one! 22:34:01 "WEBERNETS VERY STUPID. ME NOT BOTHER RESEARCHING AND INSTEAD HANG OUT ON #ESOTERIC." 22:34:57 WRITING PAPER is trivial. i write on paper nearly everyday (i use to solve the sudoku in the newspaper) 22:35:31 ME WRITE PAPER 22:36:13 oerjan, you do Sudoku? I would have thought you would be busy MATHEMATICING. 22:36:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 22:37:07 fungot, EXPLAIN 22:37:07 Phantom_Hoover_: it is quite unalterable by heat, it's the humidity. elric had heard such sounds echoing from his horns and tail. 22:37:14 ^style 22:37:15 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:37:26 yes the humidity is quite awful recently 22:37:26 ^style youtube 22:37:26 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 22:37:35 I feel like a bit of stupidity, fungot. 22:37:35 Phantom_Hoover_: that's impossible but cool,btw his style reminds me of my friends think she just wants to say 22:37:56 What's the official pronunciation of "fungot", BtW? 22:37:56 Phantom_Hoover_: loved it!!!!!! 22:37:58 fungot, I think we should declare war on B 22:37:58 Sgeo: what if she stays like this!!!! 22:38:10 Yes, B is a she, fungot 22:38:11 Sgeo: what's the song rocks!! i think this one. at the grocery. you managed to contradict yourself there big time, and if it is sorta in the plane 22:38:26 I would go for "fun-go", but. 22:41:23 fungot, how do you pronounce it? 22:41:23 Phantom_Hoover_: thanks for reviewing that. go die beste ..das lied is hamma cool... i was about to sing like me...but he's a christian! who goes to yourcharity! 22:41:31 Hamma cool! 22:43:39 Vorpal: The only possible cause of stutter would be if aplaymidi couldn't provide MIDI data fast enough, but that's frankly absurd. <-- alsa could cause it 22:43:45 Gregor-W, single core and so on 22:44:08 Gregor-W, besides, I'm sure it would stutter on a 386 if you tried that! 22:48:09 :P 22:49:06 -!- alise has joined. 22:49:16 The Worm Who Had a Pet Worm 22:51:49 SUDDENLY 22:52:49 I went back in time. SUDDENLY 22:55:05 alise, we have learned B's gender 22:55:12 B? 22:55:18 Phantom_Hoover_: Nomic. 22:55:20 fungot, I think we should declare war on B 22:55:20 Sgeo: what if she stays like this!!!! 22:55:20 Sgeo: this could have been closed quite a vivid imagination, you are a couple of folks agreeing with me. but let me guess: you don't even get me wrong, ur stil idiots. i know 22:55:21 Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible) 22:55:35 `addquote Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible) 22:55:35 alise: saw this last night, i have ever seen!.....i myself am a hillary clinton supporter btw. 22:55:39 Best version of the Bible ever. 22:55:50 215| Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible) 22:57:16 uBible 22:58:23 alise have you read the pragmatic programmer 22:58:52 * cpressey guesses no 22:59:14 cpressey, summarise in 2 minutes. 22:59:34 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 22:59:59 cpressey: I know of it; I have no wish to read it. 23:00:01 Phantom_Hoover_: crap huggy fuzzy book for the multitudes of professional programmers who can't actually think 23:00:12 cpressey, ah. 23:00:14 That was less than 1 minute 23:00:25 Dave Thomas I find to be one of the more irritating members of the Rubysphere. (God, I just coined that, and feel DIRTY.) 23:00:28 Wondering if anyone knew exactly how crap, is all. 23:00:34 "You don't need to understand CS!" kind of things. 23:00:38 alise: Eww 23:00:40 ...the Pragmatic Programmers print some good books tohugh, I think 23:00:43 *though 23:01:10 I, uh, sort of bought a hefty Rails volume when I was still doing web stuff, still doing Ruby, and they were the only docs available outside of an API reference. 23:01:19 In my defence, everyone else was doing it too. Just like heroin. 23:01:23 Except less blissful. 23:01:26 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, it looks like. It was highly recommended by two people here who I thought were smarter than that. 23:01:41 cpressey, eeeuuugh. 23:01:42 cpressey: Who? 23:01:53 Oh, at work or in here? 23:01:59 Oh. At work. Sorry 23:02:04 Physically-here 23:02:05 cpressey: I gather that it's not actually a terrible book. 23:02:16 Well not physically *here*... argh 23:02:17 Like, it's certainly not pretentious enough for us, but it's not a "LOL PROGRAMMING IS EASY!" type thing. 23:02:33 cpressey: I suppose it's similar to Code Complete -- which I also haven't read. 23:02:50 Hmm. 23:02:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pragmatic_Programmer 23:02:56 From that, it actually seems awful. 23:03:03 I love that we're the pretentious people in CS> 23:03:09 I tried reading Code Complete. My operating theory is that, like CC, PP is probably an OK book for people whose minds work like that, but it would not help me. 23:03:35 What these books teach me is that I probably don't want to program underneath someone else for a living. 23:03:51 Phantom_Hoover_: We're not even proper academia! That's the great thing. 23:03:58 Woo! 23:04:13 We just sit here, dismissing questions as too easy and waffling on about nothing. 23:04:26 * Phantom_Hoover_ → sleep 23:04:37 Phantom_Hoover_: you're making me want to create an esolang inspired by that syntax 23:04:47 object → receiver, or something 23:04:50 The weird thing is how heavily "software engineering" concentrates on personality and process -- as if the "writing software that works" part just took care of itself. 23:05:25 cpressey: But, dude, with Agile there's so little time left to actually write code that it's impossible to screw up any one component; that'd be like screwing up "Hello, world!" 23:05:39 And then AGILE PROCESS ensures that all the pieces stick together! YAY! 23:06:01 Sorry, what was that? I was busy switching context. 23:06:07 Moo. 23:06:38 I keep forgetting it's all a lost cause ;) 23:08:37 Wow, Dave Thomas actually studied computer science. I cannae believe it. 23:08:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 23:09:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:09:42 cpressey: Can you attempt to explain to me what the hell distinguishes SCRUM! from AGILE!? 23:09:56 I know it may cause permanent brain damage if you try and think about this stuff, but I'm truly curious. 23:10:21 Hmm, is it that Scrum is-a-concrete-instance-of-the-abstract-classifier Agile? 23:10:30 alise: Urk. Well, as far as *I* have ever been able to tell, Scrum is a kind of Agile. 23:11:02 "Agile" is a descriptive adjective, used specifically to describe a family of techniques. Scrum is a technique. 23:11:09 IN MY DAY, people said "Agile" and meant a specific process involving passive-aggressivity, post-it notes and orgies^Wgroup hugs^Wsessions 23:11:50 I believe "Agile" to be intentionally vaguely defined so that organizations can say "Why yes, we do Agile here!" 23:12:12 And just never mind about XP. Just never mind. 23:12:45 cpressey: It's funny, because the C2 wiki -- as well as, you know, being the first -- actually has some of the most level-headed stuff about programming on the web. 23:12:51 But it's so grounded in XP culture that I have no idea how. 23:14:47 Well, I haven't checked recently, but last I did, XP seemed virtually dead. 23:15:10 How can an /idea/ die? 23:16:06 I mean in the sense that no one seems to describe themselves as using it. 23:16:40 I use scrumstreme agilegramming 23:17:20 When I saw it, XP contained the commandment "If XP is broken, fix it". This made XP the Wiki of development methodologies. I think it ended up being diluted into meaninglessness. 23:17:35 But, I'm guessing here. I don't talk very long to anyone who seems too into this sort of thing. 23:17:36 What's wrong with XP? 23:19:04 Sgeo: Since XP could be anything at this point (see above), I can't say. 23:19:21 People have turned agile from a silly little game to boost morale and keep focused into a cult. 23:19:27 It's almost comedic. Almost. 23:19:35 Well, at least it's not Lean. 23:19:40 I thought XP was just writing tests first, or am I mistaken? 23:19:41 Extreme programming should be more like extreme ironing. 23:19:43 THAT is something to behold. 23:19:47 COMPILING ON THE TOP OF A CLIFF 23:19:54 WRITING AN OPERATING SYSTEM WHILE BUNGEE JUMPING 23:19:56 FUCK YEAH 23:20:04 Sgeo: No, that's TDD. Or BDD, depending on your God. 23:20:09 *god. 23:20:26 BDD = TDD where I pretend my tests are written in English 23:21:58 And I approve of TDD, more or less, btw. 23:22:14 I don't always do it myself, but sometimes. 23:22:49 I tried to like TDD, but it turns out that I'm Sick of This Shit and just want to write some fucking code, not spend ages explaining to a computer how my code should work and then writing it. 23:23:00 I explain to it how the code should work once already, by writing it. 23:23:10 Besides, test cases are always so rudimentary, arbitrary and stupid... 23:23:38 Proof-Driven Development would be better. 23:24:05 Yes, but ... I've become disillusioned a bit with that. 23:24:13 Sigh. Who knows. 23:24:49 The main reason I'm OK with TDD is because tests are so much easier to write near the beginning, when the requirements are, uh, not history yet. 23:24:49 Should I learn some design patterns? 23:25:17 Sgeo: No. 23:25:18 After code has been out in the wild for a while... shit, good luck knowing how it's "supposed" to be behave. 23:25:25 alise, explanation? 23:25:27 Sgeo: Just no. And don't ask why. 23:25:33 I'm asking why 23:25:37 cpressey: You tell him why. 23:26:22 Sgeo: Actually you should. But you should learn them without assistance of any books, examples, other people, or other people's code. 23:26:36 No instructional videos either. Dammit! 23:26:51 In case Sgeo can't tell, cpressey is telling Sgeo to learn them simply by writing code that uses them, which Sgeo almost certainly does already. 23:27:00 alise is a completely impartial observer with no sense of identity. 23:29:00 The classic "gang of four" book on design patterns is not bad, actually, but ... 23:29:35 I just want to be sure that I'm not a code monkey, and if I am, fix it 23:29:42 1. Originators come up with concept 2. Originators use concept 3. Concept is good 4. Concept is published 5. People start using concept "in the large" 6. Concept is now crap 23:30:25 Behold the power of dumbing down. 23:30:41 Sgeo: Write proofs. Even simple ones. It's the best cure I know of. 23:30:53 Not proofs of programs, necessarily. Just proofs. 23:30:54 hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:31:02 so, inception is one of the better movies 23:31:08 i have really njoyed it 23:31:13 Was about to say, I have no idea how proofs of programs work 23:31:34 i asked this question a few times here 23:31:38 no one gave me a good answer 23:31:55 I just want to be sure that I'm not a code monkey, and if I am, fix it 23:32:00 learning "design patterns" will make you one 23:32:18 cheater99: because it's not that simple 23:32:18 alise 23:32:30 i studied mathematics 23:32:35 that's not that simple either 23:32:52 like a random computer illiterate on the street asking you to explain the halting problem, except for program proving we don't have the standard stock answers that make it easy. 23:33:06 and i'm sure that computer illiterate may be a very successful doctor or whatever, which isn't simple 23:33:07 i followed the whole storyline of inception without getting lost 23:33:10 that's not easy!!!! 23:33:11 but that doesn't make it any easier. 23:33:13 cheater99: yes it is 23:33:16 it's just nesting, big whoop 23:33:18 no it's not 23:33:23 I haven't seen Inception yet 23:33:36 alise: it's not easy *in general* 23:33:38 Sgeo: it's like the matrix but with more layers of nesting 23:33:43 not as in... it's not easy to me. 23:33:43 OK, I can only say one more thing on the subject then I have to leave... 23:33:44 and leonardo dicaprio 23:33:47 it was easy to me. 23:34:10 cheater99: ok, so you're creating an imagined Average Person who doesn't grok inception so that you can claim you achieved something by grokking inception 23:34:12 gotcha 23:35:01 yes 23:35:13 you guessed, i am projecting my erotic desire. 23:35:21 so what about those program proofs? 23:35:21 OK, well I forgot what the question was. 23:37:06 Which costs more, replacement coords for a headset with replacable coords, or very cheap headsets 23:37:18 Replace headsets for headphones if headset implies a microphone 23:37:20 Proving properties of programs is not really different from proving properties of the integers. It's just that the integers have a simpler structure. There are an infinite number of possible runs through a program; there are an infinite number of integers. You find a way to link the property you want to prove, to the properties that you already know, by going back to the definitions. 23:37:23 s/for/with/ 23:37:39 Need to leave now. Bye! 23:37:45 Bye cpressey 23:37:47 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:38:56 yeah, it's called induction 23:41:32 cpressey's explanation was crap there, btw. 23:46:40 SGU 1x20 time 23:49:49 -!- MizardX- has joined. 23:50:28 Bucket, Stargate Universe 23:50:29 Stargate Voyager? 23:50:53 Sgeo: Clearly, someone has a low opinion of the series. 23:51:10 Or they're pointing out the obvious similarity 23:51:26 Yeah, uh, newsflash: Voyager is universally hated by EVERYONE but you. 23:51:33 Even the ACTORS hated Voyager. 23:51:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:51:48 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 23:51:59 Not necessarily all of them 23:52:18 Just 2 of them, I think 23:52:18 Mulgrew and Beltran did, and that's just the ones that have spoken out. 23:52:26 A lot of the writers hate a lot of the work they did.. 23:52:59 The series's "critical acclaim" is a misnomer; it's more "hysterical, sarcastic laughter", and the fan opinion is too horrific to be put into words. 23:53:17 If someone compared a series to Voyager, especialy a series that has been met with some disdain, it is a deliberate insult. 23:53:53 who are mulgrew and beltran again? 23:54:03 Mulgrew is the actress for Janeway 23:54:08 cheater99: Janeway and Chakotay. 23:54:18 they were both playing old women 23:54:20 cheater99: Chakotay's extremely wooden acting was due to Beltran not giving a shit. 23:54:23 how would you like to be playing an old woman 23:54:44 Not giving a single shit at all. 23:54:58 exactly 23:55:01 anyways 23:55:04 i love fucking recruiters 23:55:04 09:14 (15 hours ago) Hi XXX, 23:55:04 23:55:04 I hope you have had a good day, unfortunately mine is not nearly over! 23:55:04 yeah, i very well hope your day isn't over at 9 am you worthless bitch 23:55:17 "i love fucking recruiters" 23:55:21 yes 23:55:26 fucking recruiters are loved by me. 23:55:38 Or, you enjoy congress of a certain nature with recruiters. 23:55:56 alise, that's a Sgeo-joke! 23:56:07 Sgeo: No. 23:56:07 More evidence that you're turning into me! 23:56:25 Sgeo: You turn things that don't directly say "fucking", "sex", "intercourse" or "snu-snu" into really strained sexual references. 23:56:29 That is totally not the same thing. 23:56:51 alise, I did that, what, once or twice on the same day? 23:56:53 stop arguing with yourself, Sgeo. 23:57:00 it makes you look vain. 23:57:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:57:05 and lonely. 23:57:16 -!- augur has joined. 23:57:26 cheater99 is like the terrible replacement for augur after augur left at the end of a season, returning only for a few later cameos 23:57:31 and i totally started writing that before augur came in. no joke 23:57:49 alise: <3 23:58:37 alise: you are like Hugh.