00:00:03 ??? 00:00:10 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:01:02 Sgeo, the Private Eye is a satirical magazine in the UK. 00:01:35 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:01:36 One of the columns is a poem by "E.J. Thribb (17½)" 00:05:39 They are always about the recently deceased. 00:10:06 As long as he doesn't write poems about me anytime soon, I'm omk 00:10:53 There are GPL for computer software codes, and GFDL for books, but what happens if your codes can compile a program and also books? 00:11:07 So, farewell then 00:11:09 Sgeo 00:11:13 You did not have 00:11:17 A catchphrase 00:11:27 And I cannot 00:11:31 Be bothered 00:11:34 To make one up. 00:11:47 —E.J. Thribb (17½) 00:12:02 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 00:12:08 Running a dc program to calculate primes in UNIX dc compiled for MIPS running in a JavaScript MIPS simulator JITting to JavaScript JITting to machine code is quite possibly the least efficient way that primes have ever been calculated. 00:12:12 zzo38, noöne sane uses the GFDL. 00:12:30 Phantom_Hoover, Wikipedia, iirc 00:12:37 Sgeo, no more. 00:12:47 How do you go about relicensing WIkipedia/ 00:12:53 You can't track everyone down 00:13:07 They actually made the FSF change the GFDL to allow them to switch to CC-BY-SA. 00:13:15 o.O 00:13:44 Yes, I saw the GFDL it contains something specifically meant for Wikipedia to relicense things 00:13:46 Sgeo, WP makes it clear that as soon as you hit "save", any content you contribute is under whatever licensing terms they have. 00:14:05 Or, at least that is what it looks like to me, once I read it, I thought that is the only use for that part of the license 00:14:13 zzo38, what part? 00:14:38 It was under the GFDL 1.something or later, then the FSF added a clause to it that allowed wikis to switch to CC-BY-SA before a certain date. 00:15:54 I thikn only some versions of the GFDL include that clause 00:16:19 zzo38, 1.3. 00:16:34 So anyway, still looking for an interesting terminating dc program. 00:17:01 Gregor-W, how have you implemented dc, then? 00:17:36 Phantom_Hoover, I think he's lazy and wants someone else to do it for hi..I may have misunderstood 00:17:57 I assumed he had an implementation and wanted something interesting to do. 00:18:06 Gregor-W, look up dc on 99 bottles. 00:18:11 Phantom_Hoover: BRILLIANT 00:18:24 By "dc program", presumably he doesn't mean dc, which is what I thought, but things to put into dc 00:18:25 Phantom_Hoover: It's just UNIX dc (for MIPS for JSMIPS for JavaScript) 00:18:37 Yes, a program written in the "language" dc. 00:19:07 * Sgeo wonders what a dc language without the ability to not halt would look like 00:19:34 Gregor-W, http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-dc-704.html 00:19:56 4 lines... 00:20:44 -!- sshc_ has joined. 00:23:32 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:23:32 The GFDL attempts to prevent the documentation being written in something that requires proprietary software to read. Any other documentation licenses do similar, more successfully? 00:23:39 Sgeo, you want to be more fascist than the FSF? 00:24:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 00:28:18 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:34 We should all strive to be more fascist than the FSF. 00:30:03 First, proprietary software; then, the world! 00:30:46 Gregor-W, how do I enter EoF in JSMIPS? 00:31:01 Phantom_Hoover: ATM you can't :P 00:31:10 Ctrl+D is slurped by the browser. 00:32:11 Oh, this dc doesn't bother with that buffered terminal crap. 00:34:12 Well, 99 bottles kinda-sorta works 00:35:56 By which I mean it doesn't work, but it makes a nice effort. 00:36:12 Yeah, I saw that too. 00:36:17 I suspect it depends on GNU dcisms. 00:36:24 Since every other program I've found works perfectly. 00:36:29 And JSMIPS is incapable of being wrong. 00:36:59 Can you compile GNU dc? 00:37:27 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:40:25 Phantom_Hoover: Probably, haven't tried. Can't from work. 00:40:42 Gregor-W, can't, or won't. 00:42:51 Within the limits of my ability, can. Within the restrictions of the rules of this company, cannot. 00:43:23 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 00:43:43 Gregor-W, do they forbid it? 00:44:00 Not explicitly, but indirectly. 00:44:12 *forbit_it 00:44:34 * Sgeo has taken a Tylenol 00:44:45 Sgeo: Congratulations on your accomplishment. 00:44:54 I always say that on here, so that if I do it excessively by forgetfullness somehow, someone can warn me >.> 00:45:18 Sgeo, you are a world-famous mime artist. 00:45:18 Sgeo: Dude, you've already said that like ten times in the last hour. 00:46:03 You fell from glory due to a disastrous accident with an invisible shark tank, and are now bitter and vengeful. 00:46:10 Sgeo: very useful bunch, these guys 00:46:51 Now you must seek justice upon the one who wronged you: Donald Knuth! 00:47:46 For it is he who designed to topple your pedestal, to assist the Conspiracy! 00:52:44 "C) Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved, in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies? * " 00:53:01 —Some US visa thing. 00:53:17 So if you were a Nazi in 1938, that's fine? 00:53:56 Last I checked, 1938 is between 1933 and 1945. 00:54:11 Phantom_Hoover: If you were a Nazi but not involved in persecutions involving Germany, you're fine. 00:54:31 Gregor-W, oops. 00:54:34 So, the Pope is allowed in. 00:54:55 pikhq: Bahahah X-D 00:55:26 * Phantom_Hoover remembers a suggestion that House of Fun be pushed to the No. 1 spot in the UK for the Pope's visit. 00:55:45 House of Fun? 00:56:27 Sgeo, random song. Apparently about condoms. 00:56:53 I think it's trying to replicate the "Killing in the Name of" thing. 00:57:04 Thought it was a place of some sort. Stupid failure to understand context! 00:57:19 Killing in the Name of>? 00:57:34 A rap song which was Christmas No. 1 last year. 00:58:04 (It'd been whatever crap the X Factor did for years before) 00:59:15 * Phantom_Hoover needs to go. 00:59:20 Sgeo, use the mime! 00:59:41 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:04:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:13:15 Good lawd! 01:13:27 For the first time in my internship here, the term "time flies when you're having fun" has applied. 01:14:26 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 01:23:39 If you write a web program with GNU GPL and you sell a book of it, what is the license issues involved? 01:28:29 None? The GPL is the GPL regardless of the media format ... if you sell a book of a compiled binary of it, you have to include the source. 01:30:16 Aside from the GPL being poorly suited to not-code, no issues. 01:34:58 I understand the GPL is poorly suited to not-code, except, but it is a computer program code, but you print it out to make a book (including the table of contents, and index, and so on). 01:36:39 Is the index MERELY AGGREGATED with the source code, or LINKED with it? X-P 01:37:13 Gregor-W: The index is created from the source-code. The entire book is created from the source-code. 01:38:32 (Except that the index is generated automatically, the source-code does not include the index, instead it will find everything needed indexed and then put it in order in the index, with the section numbers) 01:38:49 (Section numbers are not included in the source code either, they are also automatically generated) 01:43:41 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:49:50 zzo38: Arguably, the book is itself the compiled binary, and you need to also distribute the source. 01:50:12 Where "distribute" can just mean "You may download this at http://example.com/foo". 01:50:34 pikhq: Yes, it is, itself what I think. The actual executable program is also the other compiled binary. 01:50:57 pikhq: I don't think that "distribute" is good enough...... 01:51:12 It is. 01:51:23 "Believed to be" under GPL2, explicitly so under GPL3 01:53:38 That isn't good enough unless the URL specifies exactly to the program (so that accessing it using wget or netcat or curl will download the source file directly), but is better if, when you sell a DVD with this book that includes the source-codes, and a hardware device that uses this program 01:55:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:56:51 What was GPL1 like? 02:08:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Akagi Shigeru). 02:24:01 I took the Tylenol over an hour ago, why isn't it helping? 02:26:57 Because over-the-counter pain medicine is basically a joke that people continue to use because the placebo effect is more powerful when you actually believe it'll work. 02:34:00 I once believed that a Tylenol I took would take effect in half-an-hour. My pain was relieved in an hour 02:34:15 Can placebo effect explain that? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really curious) 02:36:44 Will making the screen be red lessen the badness that using the computer would have on my headache? 02:45:03 Gregor: Actually, OTC pain medications are quite effective. Tylenol is not one of them for most afflictions. 02:46:34 * Sgeo wonders if the fact hat he only took half a dose might have anything to do with anything 02:46:54 I'm rather on the small and thin side, so I try to be cautious... 02:47:40 Sgeo: Don't take Tylenol for headaches. It doesn't work, and it might kill your liver. 02:47:56 Try naproxen sodium, or aspirin, or ibuprofen. 02:48:05 Never heard of naproxen sodium 02:48:59 s/?/> 02:49:00 Aleve = naproxen sodium 02:49:01 Also, mightn't Aspirin kill my stomach? I don't drink, but I don't eat properly, so stomach issues might be more of a concern? 02:49:02 win 28 02:50:10 Aspirin can cause ulcers, yes, but it's not generally a concern for short-term OTC use. 02:50:29 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:50:43 (if you have stomach issues or diabetes, aspirin is a solid no, though) 02:50:49 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 02:51:58 I have "not eating enough and the proper things" issues 02:52:50 That can cause headaches in and of itself. 02:53:00 You may want to fix that instead of resorting to medication. 02:54:39 Called my dad 02:54:49 He suggested that I take another Tylenol 02:55:10 How much have you taken? 02:55:21 (in mg, preferably) 02:56:03 500mg 02:56:21 Okay, you may be safe going up to 1,000mg. 02:56:41 "may"? 02:57:02 Tylenol is scary stuff, and even normal doses have a chance of causing liver failure. 02:57:33 #1: solution to headaches in my experience: drink lots of water and lie down 02:57:42 coppro: Not a solution for migraines. 02:58:06 I don't _think_ I have migrains 02:58:14 Sgeo: You'd know if you did. 02:58:36 pikhq: I don't suffer from migraines, and apparently neither does Sgeo. 02:58:48 Among other things, you would not be fond of the lightbulb on which my words are being displayed. 02:58:49 I've had severe, severe headaches on occasion 03:00:34 Maybe I should turn away from the computer... 03:03:07 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:08:57 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 03:08:59 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 03:13:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:25:10 I hate walking into spider webs 03:25:14 Especially large ones 03:25:32 Also, my headache seems to be a bit better (without taking the extra Tylenol!) 03:26:11 * oerjan me toos 03:32:15 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:36:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:46:40 -!- sshc_ has joined. 03:49:33 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:50:02 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 03:53:59 -!- sshc_ has joined. 03:54:47 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:55:43 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 03:59:17 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:02:16 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:07:08 -!- sshc has joined. 04:09:33 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:09:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 04:12:09 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:14:13 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:25:04 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 04:27:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:33:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:05:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:08:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:08:12 * oerjan has no f idea what today's xkcd is about 05:08:49 oerjan: Porn 05:09:26 ah. 05:09:56 oerjan: A maid, a pizza delivery guy with a hot "sausage", and a "plumber" are stereotypical stock characters in American porn. 05:10:26 fine, fine 05:17:17 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's cursing in american porn XD 05:17:30 Yes. 05:17:32 Of course they left out "construction worker", "prison inmate" and "schoolgirl/cheerleader/etc" 05:17:45 American porn is not aired on TV at all, and instead on DVD. 05:17:54 American porn also does not give a fuck about moral guardians. 05:18:01 Also the Internet :P 05:18:14 Well. Yes. 05:18:16 :P 05:18:29 Although the Web is a porn melting pot. 05:18:40 Indeed. 05:18:45 i just thought it would be hilarious if there wasn't 05:18:53 It would be. 05:19:11 Much use of "the 'F' word" :P 05:19:15 And lots of moaning. 05:19:31 And playing board games. 05:19:39 well yeah but is it really cursing if you use the words _literally_? :D 05:19:48 Arguably not. 05:30:07 o hey, this might be a good place to ask this 05:30:48 under scrutiny is the behavior of a bot being made to play tetris 05:31:04 there is a database of field shapes on which the pagerank algorithm is run 05:31:49 if we look 3 pieces ahead (we know what pieces they are), and get results like this (simplified): http://24.19.39.178/decision.png 05:31:57 the question is, is it better to follow the path for B or for C? 05:32:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:32:19 path B has a better field within it, but path C has a better field after 3 placements 05:32:45 of course, the values inherently describe how 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when downloading executables. 11:54:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:54:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 11:54:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:00:46 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:01:35 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 12:02:53 -!- augur_ has joined. 12:04:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:04:57 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 12:15:04 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:15:48 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 12:24:25 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:27:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:32:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:33:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:36:43 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 12:42:34 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:05:13 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 13:08:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:20:17 Sgeo__, why the constant quits and rejoins? 13:21:04 A fickle person. 13:21:16 the varying numbers of underscores imply to me that it's a bad connection 13:21:28 fizzie, BRING FUNGOT BACK 13:21:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:21:58 -!- augur has joined. 13:22:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:24:45 I ... wait, why'd I disconnect at 8:04? 13:25:02 The earlier disconnect was as my computer hibernated in an effort to prevent me from staying on it 13:25:21 Sgeo__, evidently it failed. 13:25:33 No it didn't 13:25:44 I was unable to really use the computer until 7:30 13:25:56 It's what, half 8 EST? 13:26:36 And? 13:26:55 Wait, you stayed up the whole night? 13:26:56 At any rate, I didn't get any sleep last night. My dad wants me to stay up all day so I'll be able to go to sleep tonight 13:27:24 Yes, but you shouldn't have been able to derive that without me telling you. I'm confused now 13:28:00 Sgeo__, I am a master of deduction. 13:30:18 Like Sherlock Holmes, but without the charisma. 13:34:20 yeah where is fungot? 13:38:32 They killed him! 13:39:06 Hung up; I don't know what's up with that state it sometimes goes; it keeps sleeping in the network-read. You'd think TCP timeouts would kill it eventually, but they do not seem to. 13:39:24 FIX HIM 13:39:28 -!- fungot has joined. 13:39:32 fungot! 13:39:32 Phantom_Hoover: i don't know of that one game... jak daxter ( or maybe i'm mistaken, but the 13:51:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to `hello. 13:51:44 -!- `hello has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 13:51:49 Interesting... 13:51:59 -!- augur has changed nick to `heyphantom. 13:52:02 -!- `heyphantom has changed nick to augur. 14:48:19 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:56:59 ais523: You know, it's very easy to design a language whose programs form a monoid (because you don't need all that invertibility stuff)... then you could look at it as representing the category of monoids? Except, there is the slight snag that these aren't conventional algebras; they replace equality with computational equivalence (which is uncomputable!) in the axioms. 15:01:02 I think that's algebra's fault for assuming that = is such a trivial relation. ;) 15:01:38 algebraists generally just take the quotient by your equivalence relation and call it a day 15:02:25 cpressey: ouch 15:04:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:06:26 also equality with monoids is already undecidable when you have conventional equations. it's called the word problem. 15:06:52 Errrr indeed! 15:07:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:07:44 That all seems rather cavalier somehow, but actually I think it means I can feel a whole lot better -- Burro doesn't bend the rules nearly as much as I thought it might. 15:11:37 cpressey: if instead of "computational equivalence", you say "provable computational equivalence, according to inference rules X, Y, Z, etc.", it works I think 15:11:43 e.g. for Burro, you have the cancelling-out rules 15:12:41 (instead of interpreting it as a programing language that's a group, interpret it as a group that happens to be executable in a TC way) 15:14:09 Well... if you're suggesting to restrict the set to instances that we can prove are equivalent to other instances... I'm pretty sure that's not TC anymore (although it's a different way to put the question than I'm used to) 15:14:23 s/instances/programs if you like 15:15:12 no, I'm not 15:15:16 I'm suggesting weaking the equality relation 15:15:18 Or, not a group, because it's not closed: A x B = C where A and B are provably equiavlent to somerhing, but C isn't 15:15:20 *weakening 15:16:01 so that you can have two computationally equivalent programs that are not equal, because it can't be proved using a certain specific set of rules 15:16:11 OK, I think I see 15:16:17 they're both part of the group, just /different/ group elements 15:16:25 Yeeeeees 15:16:32 * cpressey grimaces 15:17:15 How on earth would you show that the "unprovable elements" obey any of the laws, though? 15:17:29 no individual element is unprovable 15:17:34 it's just the relationship between two of them 15:17:47 OK, right 15:17:48 and the laws are what you use to establish the equality relationship, so it's true by definition 15:18:03 as in, two programs are equal if you can prove them equal using the group laws 15:18:11 (which also implies they're computationally equivalent) 15:18:26 two programs might happen to be computationally equivalent for a different reason, in which case they aren't equal 15:25:01 That might be a good way to re-seat the idea. I'm just trying to figure out if you lose anything (of significance). Currently, if 2 programs are equivalent for any reason, then they go into the same equivalence class and are treated as "the same thing" by the axioms. With the weaker definition, they would have to be "equivalent by the group axioms" in order to do that. OK, I think that's OK... Burro for example works 15:26:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:28:04 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if learning Fortran would be good for a laugh. 15:33:03 Phantom_Hoover: Not just a laugh, if you wanted to break into the big bad world of high-performance numerical computing. 15:33:14 I don't want to do that. 15:35:42 Or you could learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_%28programming_language%29 15:37:53 COBOL would be a heartier laugh. 15:38:34 Or are we to say "Cobol" now? Everyone says Lisp and Forth and Basic. Have shouted language names gone out of style? 15:38:55 Yes, ever since the ASCII became standard. 15:39:22 -_^ 15:39:31 Oh, the kids these days, always with the ASCII. 15:39:53 WELL ITS DECIDEDLY BETTER THAN THE ALTERNATIVE 15:40:17 NOTHING WRONG WITH UPPERCASE 15:40:26 -!- derdon has joined. 15:40:28 EASIER TO READ 15:40:31 Indeed, as Lisp demonstrates. 15:40:33 SEXIER 15:40:37 COOLER 15:40:38 !lisp (print 'hello) 15:40:48 oklopol, you think monospaced fonts are cool. 15:41:15 Your view of aesthetics in typography are of a similar value of a pigeon's. 15:41:27 s/view/views/ 15:41:48 pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. 15:43:05 oklopol, maybe so, but they don't know the first thing about typography. 15:43:56 oklopol: is that statement vacuously true? 15:44:17 " s/view/views/" <<< clearly you know a lot about typography 15:44:18 hahaha 15:44:21 get it 15:44:25 typo-graphy 15:44:29 ais523: yes 15:44:32 err 15:44:37 no! 15:44:48 it's non-vacuously true 15:44:54 `addquote pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. 15:45:06 as in, there is a known way to show a language is not regular, and it's pigeon-based? 15:45:08 oklopol, that is a typo. They are common, due to the fact that humans are not designed to type. 15:45:08 211| pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. 15:45:10 ais523: yes 15:45:16 wow 15:45:26 oklopol, what is it/? 15:45:27 ais523: well, not very literally :D 15:45:39 it's a pun. 15:45:43 ah 15:45:54 A pun in Finnish? 15:46:00 yes. 15:46:04 also in english though. 15:46:25 Do explain. 15:46:36 well how do you show a lang is not regular? 15:46:44 sorry about the socratic method 15:47:51 well okay the point is the characterization (and often the definition) of regular languages as those recognized by a one-way fsa 15:48:15 you can develop a pumping lemma (often called "the" pumping lemma) for them, because of ... 15:48:25 (insert pigeons.) 15:49:04 :D 15:49:58 more precisely, we think of the states as pigeons 15:50:20 and i hope you get it already? 15:50:43 No, but forget it. 15:51:41 pigeonhole principle, the letters of the string are the holes 15:53:29 Ah. 15:54:21 i'm an elephant 15:55:14 Yes you are, oklo, yes you are. 15:57:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:08:12 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:10:00 -!- Gregor has joined. 16:21:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:37:53 -!- augur has joined. 16:40:18 ais523: OK, I think I see that any "group over computational equivalence" has a corresponding "group over provable computational equivalence" which is technically weaker, but more tractable, while "saying almost the same thing". (I'm sure you could relate them more formally.) Now, I wonder about the converse. 16:44:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:46:48 -!- relet has joined. 16:50:27 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:52:34 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 16:54:03 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Client Quit). 16:59:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:59:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:01:46 -!- Flonk has joined. 17:07:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:07:28 -!- augur has joined. 17:07:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:12:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:12:20 -!- augur has joined. 17:24:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:59:29 * Flonk just became aware of the awesomeness of brainfuck 18:01:05 oh? 18:01:09 have you seen iota? 18:01:28 no, whats iota 18:01:47 a combinator language with only one combinator and one non-logical symbol 18:02:13 O_o 18:03:44 and i thought brainfuck was masochistic. 18:04:16 Flonk, it's of the same computational class as Brainfuck, too. 18:06:24 well 18:06:32 it depends on what you mean by computational class 18:06:36 in terms of power, any TC language is 18:06:40 Unlambda/Lazy K > Iota 18:06:48 if you mean its a tarpit, only sort of 18:06:54 tarpits tend to be machine languages 18:07:00 whereas iota is a combinator language 18:07:14 which has its roots in the lambda calculus, whereas machine languages have their roots in turing machines 18:14:43 "Computational class" generally means "what kinds of things can it compute" in eso-land, rather than "what it has roots in" 18:15:16 well then its kind of useless to say that its in the same computational class as brainfuck 18:15:34 because almost all esolangs are TC 18:15:43 its like saying its in the same computational class as piet 18:15:57 That's not useless, though. 18:16:20 it pretty much is 18:16:22 its TC 18:16:25 most esolangs are 18:16:30 you'd be surprised if one werent 18:17:15 There are quite a few that aren't. There are quite a few that *intentionally* aren't. 18:17:27 Like C? 18:17:43 C isn't eso 18:17:53 augur, O RLY? 18:17:53 and its only not TC for silly reasons 18:18:01 well, its fucking weird, ill give you that 18:18:08 but its not an esolang 18:18:09 "Silly"? 18:18:17 yes 18:18:47 It's not TC! How is it not TC for silly reasons! 18:18:57 silly, in that it gives you directly manipulable access to memory addresses, and therefore the size of pointers has to be visible 18:19:10 and thats what leads to the non-TCness 18:19:18 augur, don't see where silly comes in. 18:19:40 the size of pointers becomes a part of the language itself, not something thats invisible and happening only between the compiler and the machine code 18:20:12 and its prooooobably true that you never need to actually know how big this or that pointer is 18:20:27 Unless you want to, I dunno, store it. 18:20:28 you just need to be able to do math on pointer sizes 18:20:35 cpressey: nope! 18:20:36 Or send it across a wire. 18:20:48 augur, malloc? 18:20:52 you just need to allocated size(the_pointer) space! 18:21:19 augur, so you need to know what size(the_pointer) is! 18:21:35 no, you just need to be able to allocate enough space to store one 18:21:41 however much space that happens to be 18:21:45 Or, you know, prove that your real-time system can react to every event in less than 1 msec. 18:22:03 How long will it take to follow this pointer? Well that's the thing see 18:22:08 augur, oh, and what if you want, say, a dynamically-allocated 2D array? 18:22:16 cpressey: i think if you want to do that you should be coding in a language closer to the metal or with good verification :P 18:22:26 Closer to the metal than C... uh-huh. 18:22:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:22:36 sure! 18:22:38 cpressey, ring 0 assembly? 18:22:43 C--, obviously. 18:22:45 xp 18:23:50 So, because C isn't sufficiently "close to the metal", it should be even "further away from the metal", to the point where it supports pointers of unbounded length? 18:24:04 cpressey, well, yes. 18:24:10 cpressey: no, not at all 18:24:26 just that it should make pointer size transparent 18:24:31 Actually, once size_t is unbounded you can make a MRM, I think. 18:24:59 augur: It would need pointers of unbounded size (unbounded at runtime, mind you) in order to be TC, you realize. 18:25:06 im not actually sure if thats possible, im probably wrong, but i suspect that there are ways to write a language that is about that low level, but which can gloss over the details of any given machine 18:25:17 augur, that's C. 18:25:36 It's just high-level enough that it can run on most architectures. 18:25:46 cpressey: well yes 18:25:53 ofcourse, i think saying C isnt TC is kind of a trick 18:26:11 because its as TC as any programming language on a given machine is 18:26:14 which is to say, it isnt 18:26:20 That is irrelevant. 18:26:20 but only because its on a finite machine 18:26:40 if you could design a computer with infinite memory then you could hav a TC C 18:26:49 augur, no, you couldn't. 18:26:59 C's specification explicitly makes it a FSM. 18:27:00 sure you could 18:27:14 your integers would just have to be potentially an infinite number of bits long 18:27:16 You couldn't make a standards-compliant TC C. 18:27:22 augur, *impossible*! 18:27:31 impossible due to physics 18:27:34 sizeof(int *) *must* be bounded! 18:27:38 sizeof(x) would need to be able to evaluate to the integer "infinity", which C doesn't define. 18:27:40 no, impossible due to the standard 18:27:40 It's *defined* that way. 18:27:58 sizeof(x) would indeed evaluate to infinity 18:28:03 but that ceases to be relevant 18:28:09 But there *is no infinity* defined in C 18:28:13 More generally, sizeof must return a value of type size_t, which is itself defined to be finite. 18:28:14 the C standard requires a finite size of integers and a finite size of pointers, meaning that the total program space is always finite 18:28:27 cpressey: that may be so, but it doesnt matter 18:28:42 augur, it *does*. 18:28:55 It does, because the language you're talking about is not C. 18:28:55 the fact that C has no defined infinity is precisely why it's a SILLY way to restrict C's computational power 18:28:57 sizeof cannot have infinity. 18:29:01 its a technicality of non-TCness 18:29:07 not any sort of genuine conceptual limitation 18:29:17 Yes it is. 18:29:20 no its not 18:29:47 no, it's quite important 18:29:52 not really 18:30:10 now, it's silly to restrict TCness because of the impracticality of an infinite program space 18:30:11 for any finite machine you can compile a C program to it 18:30:19 but you cannot consider C to be TC 18:30:25 i didnt say it was! 18:30:31 i said it was non-TC but only for silly reasons 18:30:56 You said C on an infinite machine would be TC. Sadly, no. C-with-infinity might be. 18:31:06 well ok, fine 18:31:09 C-with-infinity then 18:31:23 thats not a substantial change to the language to make it Not C 18:32:16 augur, yes it is. 18:32:28 For one thing, malloc would work completely differently. 18:32:48 malloc(sizeof(void *)) == malloc(infinity) 18:33:09 yes, but on a ram machine with each memory cell of infinite size 18:33:22 instead of just one bit 18:33:25 It's pretty substantial because of C's memory model. In languages like Lisp you can get relative (and thus unbounded) addressing with things like car and cons. In C you have to use pointers, and pointers are castable to integers, so you have to deal with the possibility of infinite integers, etc. 18:33:44 right, i get that 18:33:54