< 1281484803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1281484810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1281484862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, the Private Eye is a satirical magazine in the UK. < 1281484895 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1281484896 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the columns is a poem by "E.J. Thribb (17½)" < 1281485139 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are always about the recently deceased. < 1281485406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as he doesn't write poems about me anytime soon, I'm omk < 1281485453 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are GPL for computer software codes, and GFDL for books, but what happens if your codes can compile a program and also books? < 1281485467 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, farewell then < 1281485469 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo < 1281485473 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did not have < 1281485477 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A catchphrase < 1281485487 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I cannot < 1281485491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be bothered < 1281485494 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make one up. < 1281485507 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—E.J. Thribb (17½) < 1281485522 0 :Gregor-W!836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281485528 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running a dc program to calculate primes in UNIX dc compiled for MIPS running in a JavaScript MIPS simulator JITting to JavaScript JITting to machine code is quite possibly the least efficient way that primes have ever been calculated. < 1281485532 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, noöne sane uses the GFDL. < 1281485550 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, Wikipedia, iirc < 1281485557 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, no more. < 1281485567 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you go about relicensing WIkipedia/ < 1281485573 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't track everyone down < 1281485587 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They actually made the FSF change the GFDL to allow them to switch to CC-BY-SA. < 1281485595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1281485624 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I saw the GFDL it contains something specifically meant for Wikipedia to relicense things < 1281485626 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, WP makes it clear that as soon as you hit "save", any content you contribute is under whatever licensing terms they have. < 1281485645 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, at least that is what it looks like to me, once I read it, I thought that is the only use for that part of the license < 1281485653 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what part? < 1281485678 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was under the GFDL 1.something or later, then the FSF added a clause to it that allowed wikis to switch to CC-BY-SA before a certain date. < 1281485754 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thikn only some versions of the GFDL include that clause < 1281485779 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, 1.3. < 1281485794 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyway, still looking for an interesting terminating dc program. < 1281485821 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, how have you implemented dc, then? < 1281485856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think he's lazy and wants someone else to do it for hi..I may have misunderstood < 1281485877 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed he had an implementation and wanted something interesting to do. < 1281485886 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, look up dc on 99 bottles. < 1281485891 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BRILLIANT < 1281485904 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "dc program", presumably he doesn't mean dc, which is what I thought, but things to put into dc < 1281485905 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's just UNIX dc (for MIPS for JSMIPS for JavaScript) < 1281485917 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a program written in the "language" dc. < 1281485947 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what a dc language without the ability to not halt would look like
< 1281485974 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-dc-704.html < 1281485996 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 lines... < 1281486044 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281486212 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1281486212 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GFDL attempts to prevent the documentation being written in something that requires proprietary software to read. Any other documentation licenses do similar, more successfully? < 1281486219 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you want to be more fascist than the FSF? < 1281486289 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style. < 1281486498 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281486574 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should all strive to be more fascist than the FSF. < 1281486603 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First, proprietary software; then, the world! < 1281486646 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, how do I enter EoF in JSMIPS? < 1281486661 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ATM you can't :P < 1281486670 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl+D is slurped by the browser. < 1281486731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this dc doesn't bother with that buffered terminal crap. < 1281486852 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 99 bottles kinda-sorta works < 1281486956 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which I mean it doesn't work, but it makes a nice effort. < 1281486972 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I saw that too. < 1281486977 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it depends on GNU dcisms. < 1281486984 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since every other program I've found works perfectly. < 1281486989 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And JSMIPS is incapable of being wrong. < 1281487019 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you compile GNU dc? < 1281487047 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716] < 1281487225 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Probably, haven't tried. Can't from work. < 1281487242 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, can't, or won't. < 1281487371 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Within the limits of my ability, can. Within the restrictions of the rules of this company, cannot. < 1281487403 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1281487423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, do they forbid it? < 1281487440 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not explicitly, but indirectly. < 1281487452 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*forbit_it < 1281487474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has taken a Tylenol
< 1281487485 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Congratulations on your accomplishment. < 1281487494 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always say that on here, so that if I do it excessively by forgetfullness somehow, someone can warn me >.> < 1281487518 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you are a world-famous mime artist. < 1281487518 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Dude, you've already said that like ten times in the last hour. < 1281487563 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fell from glory due to a disastrous accident with an invisible shark tank, and are now bitter and vengeful. < 1281487570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: very useful bunch, these guys < 1281487611 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you must seek justice upon the one who wronged you: Donald Knuth! < 1281487666 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For it is he who designed to topple your pedestal, to assist the Conspiracy! < 1281487964 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"C) Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved, in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies? * " < 1281487981 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—Some US visa thing. < 1281487997 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you were a Nazi in 1938, that's fine? < 1281488036 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I checked, 1938 is between 1933 and 1945. < 1281488051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If you were a Nazi but not involved in persecutions involving Germany, you're fine. < 1281488071 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, oops. < 1281488074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the Pope is allowed in. < 1281488095 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Bahahah X-D < 1281488126 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers a suggestion that House of Fun be pushed to the No. 1 spot in the UK for the Pope's visit.
< 1281488145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :House of Fun? < 1281488187 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, random song. Apparently about condoms. < 1281488213 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's trying to replicate the "Killing in the Name of" thing. < 1281488224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was a place of some sort. Stupid failure to understand context! < 1281488239 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Killing in the Name of>? < 1281488254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A rap song which was Christmas No. 1 last year. < 1281488284 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It'd been whatever crap the X Factor did for years before) < 1281488355 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to go.
< 1281488360 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, use the mime! < 1281488381 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1281488644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281489195 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good lawd! < 1281489207 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the first time in my internship here, the term "time flies when you're having fun" has applied. < 1281489266 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21d3ec5-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281489819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write a web program with GNU GPL and you sell a book of it, what is the license issues involved? < 1281490109 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None? The GPL is the GPL regardless of the media format ... if you sell a book of a compiled binary of it, you have to include the source. < 1281490216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aside from the GPL being poorly suited to not-code, no issues. < 1281490498 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand the GPL is poorly suited to not-code, except, but it is a computer program code, but you print it out to make a book (including the table of contents, and index, and so on). < 1281490599 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the index MERELY AGGREGATED with the source code, or LINKED with it? X-P < 1281490633 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: The index is created from the source-code. The entire book is created from the source-code. < 1281490712 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except that the index is generated automatically, the source-code does not include the index, instead it will find everything needed indexed and then put it in order in the index, with the section numbers) < 1281490729 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Section numbers are not included in the source code either, they are also automatically generated) < 1281491021 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1281491390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Arguably, the book is itself the compiled binary, and you need to also distribute the source. < 1281491412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "distribute" can just mean "You may download this at http://example.com/foo". < 1281491434 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, it is, itself what I think. The actual executable program is also the other compiled binary. < 1281491457 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think that "distribute" is good enough...... < 1281491472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1281491483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Believed to be" under GPL2, explicitly so under GPL3 < 1281491618 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't good enough unless the URL specifies exactly to the program (so that accessing it using wget or netcat or curl will download the source file directly), but is better if, when you sell a DVD with this book that includes the source-codes, and a hardware device that uses this program < 1281491742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281491811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was GPL1 like? < 1281492502 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Akagi Shigeru < 1281493441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took the Tylenol over an hour ago, why isn't it helping? < 1281493617 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because over-the-counter pain medicine is basically a joke that people continue to use because the placebo effect is more powerful when you actually believe it'll work. < 1281494040 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once believed that a Tylenol I took would take effect in half-an-hour. My pain was relieved in an hour < 1281494055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can placebo effect explain that? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really curious) < 1281494204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will making the screen be red lessen the badness that using the computer would have on my headache? < 1281494703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Actually, OTC pain medications are quite effective. Tylenol is not one of them for most afflictions. < 1281494794 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if the fact hat he only took half a dose might have anything to do with anything
< 1281494814 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rather on the small and thin side, so I try to be cautious... < 1281494860 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Don't take Tylenol for headaches. It doesn't work, and it might kill your liver. < 1281494876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try naproxen sodium, or aspirin, or ibuprofen. < 1281494885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1281494940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aleve = naproxen sodium < 1281494941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, mightn't Aspirin kill my stomach? I don't drink, but I don't eat properly, so stomach issues might be more of a concern? < 1281494942 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 28 < 1281495010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aspirin can cause ulcers, yes, but it's not generally a concern for short-term OTC use. < 1281495029 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1281495043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you have stomach issues or diabetes, aspirin is a solid no, though) < 1281495049 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@99-203-147-105.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281495118 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have "not eating enough and the proper things" issues < 1281495170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can cause headaches in and of itself. < 1281495180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may want to fix that instead of resorting to medication. < 1281495279 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Called my dad < 1281495289 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He suggested that I take another Tylenol < 1281495310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much have you taken? < 1281495321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in mg, preferably) < 1281495363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :500mg < 1281495381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, you may be safe going up to 1,000mg. < 1281495401 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"may"? < 1281495422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tylenol is scary stuff, and even normal doses have a chance of causing liver failure. < 1281495453 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1: solution to headaches in my experience: drink lots of water and lie down < 1281495462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Not a solution for migraines. < 1281495486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't _think_ I have migrains < 1281495494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You'd know if you did. < 1281495516 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't suffer from migraines, and apparently neither does Sgeo. < 1281495528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things, you would not be fond of the lightbulb on which my words are being displayed. < 1281495529 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had severe, severe headaches on occasion < 1281495634 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should turn away from the computer... < 1281495787 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1281496137 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1281496139 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@99-203-147-105.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281496383 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1281497110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate walking into spider webs < 1281497114 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially large ones < 1281497132 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, my headache seems to be a bit better (without taking the extra Tylenol!) < 1281497171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION me toos
< 1281497535 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1281497788 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h145.56.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281498400 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281498573 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1281498602 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1281498839 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281498887 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1281498943 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1281499157 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281499336 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1281499628 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281499773 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1281499789 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716] < 1281499929 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281500053 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1281500704 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1281500867 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1281501186 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-2925351791.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1281503144 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281503286 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1281503292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no f idea what today's xkcd is about
< 1281503329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Porn < 1281503366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1281503396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: A maid, a pizza delivery guy with a hot "sausage", and a "plumber" are stereotypical stock characters in American porn. < 1281503426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine, fine < 1281503837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suddenly wonders if there's cursing in american porn XD
< 1281503850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1281503852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course they left out "construction worker", "prison inmate" and "schoolgirl/cheerleader/etc" < 1281503865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :American porn is not aired on TV at all, and instead on DVD. < 1281503874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :American porn also does not give a fuck about moral guardians. < 1281503881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the Internet :P < 1281503894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yes. < 1281503896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1281503909 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the Web is a porn melting pot. < 1281503920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1281503925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just thought it would be hilarious if there wasn't < 1281503933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be. < 1281503951 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much use of "the 'F' word" :P < 1281503955 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And lots of moaning. < 1281503971 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And playing board games. < 1281503979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah but is it really cursing if you use the words _literally_? :D < 1281503988 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably not. < 1281504607 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hey, this might be a good place to ask this < 1281504648 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under scrutiny is the behavior of a bot being made to play tetris < 1281504664 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a database of field shapes on which the pagerank algorithm is run < 1281504709 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we look 3 pieces ahead (we know what pieces they are), and get results like this (simplified): http://24.19.39.178/decision.png < 1281504717 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, is it better to follow the path for B or for C? < 1281504739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1281504739 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :path B has a better field within it, but path C has a better field after 3 placements < 1281504765 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the values inherently describe how good a field is in terms of what sequences of pieces it can handle < 1281506768 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1281507050 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281508358 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281508576 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1281510993 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1281511083 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.80.203 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281511289 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281511438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281511448 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281513411 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281513599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1281513600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516289 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516291 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516319 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516320 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516349 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516350 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516398 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516400 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516444 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516445 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516471 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1281516477 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516478 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516507 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516509 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516540 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516542 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516575 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516577 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516607 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516608 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516638 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516639 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516669 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516670 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516717 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516719 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516744 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516745 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516772 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516773 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516826 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516827 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516856 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516858 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516909 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516910 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281516964 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281516966 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517004 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517005 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517057 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517058 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517109 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517110 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517141 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517143 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517173 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517175 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517204 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517205 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517234 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517236 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517268 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517270 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517299 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517300 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517333 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517335 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517367 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517369 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517404 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517405 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517444 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517445 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517468 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517470 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517514 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517515 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517541 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517543 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517566 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517568 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517593 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517595 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517632 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517633 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1281517666 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281517742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's some pretty excessive flooding. < 1281518045 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-5-148.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281518815 0 :deschutron!~alex@114-30-119-235.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1281518974 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1281519334 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281519659 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h65.20.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281519796 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281519826 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Ulu6Z.png < 1281519878 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@92.233.174.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281520048 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 253 seconds < 1281524237 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1281524242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281524248 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281524598 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c0989-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281525241 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281525828 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1281525867 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1281526298 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c0989-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281526957 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281527004 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-211.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1281527019 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1281527023 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1281527026 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281527038 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c0989-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281527094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o: < 1281527209 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281527210 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1281527342 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1281527342 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h50.35.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281527590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1281527644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is getting pretty fed up with Ubuntu holding his hand when downloading executables.
< 1281527665 0 :ais523!~ais523@147.188.254.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281527673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1281527673 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281528046 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281528095 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c0989-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281528173 0 :augur_!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281528287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281528297 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1281528904 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281528948 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c0989-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281529465 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281529660 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281529968 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281530005 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1281530203 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c0989-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281530554 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281531913 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281532115 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281532817 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__, why the constant quits and rejoins? < 1281532864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fickle person. < 1281532876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the varying numbers of underscores imply to me that it's a bad connection < 1281532888 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, BRING FUNGOT BACK < 1281532908 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281532918 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281532962 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1281533085 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ... wait, why'd I disconnect at 8:04? < 1281533102 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The earlier disconnect was as my computer hibernated in an effort to prevent me from staying on it < 1281533121 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__, evidently it failed. < 1281533133 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it didn't < 1281533144 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was unable to really use the computer until 7:30 < 1281533156 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what, half 8 EST? < 1281533196 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1281533215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you stayed up the whole night? < 1281533216 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, I didn't get any sleep last night. My dad wants me to stay up all day so I'll be able to go to sleep tonight < 1281533244 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you shouldn't have been able to derive that without me telling you. I'm confused now < 1281533280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__, I am a master of deduction. < 1281533418 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Sherlock Holmes, but without the charisma. < 1281533660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah where is fungot? < 1281533912 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They killed him! < 1281533946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hung up; I don't know what's up with that state it sometimes goes; it keeps sleeping in the network-read. You'd think TCP timeouts would kill it eventually, but they do not seem to. < 1281533964 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIX HIM < 1281533968 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1281533972 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot! < 1281533972 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i don't know of that one game... jak daxter ( or maybe i'm mistaken, but the < 1281534681 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :`hello < 1281534704 0 :`hello!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1281534709 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting... < 1281534719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :`heyphantom < 1281534722 0 :`heyphantom!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1281538099 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281538619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You know, it's very easy to design a language whose programs form a monoid (because you don't need all that invertibility stuff)... then you could look at it as representing the category of monoids? Except, there is the slight snag that these aren't conventional algebras; they replace equality with computational equivalence (which is uncomputable!) in the axioms. < 1281538862 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's algebra's fault for assuming that = is such a trivial relation. ;) < 1281538898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebraists generally just take the quotient by your equivalence relation and call it a day < 1281538945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ouch < 1281539095 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1281539186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also equality with monoids is already undecidable when you have conventional equations. it's called the word problem. < 1281539212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Errrr indeed! < 1281539258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1281539264 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That all seems rather cavalier somehow, but actually I think it means I can feel a whole lot better -- Burro doesn't bend the rules nearly as much as I thought it might. < 1281539497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if instead of "computational equivalence", you say "provable computational equivalence, according to inference rules X, Y, Z, etc.", it works I think < 1281539503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. for Burro, you have the cancelling-out rules < 1281539561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(instead of interpreting it as a programing language that's a group, interpret it as a group that happens to be executable in a TC way) < 1281539649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... if you're suggesting to restrict the set to instances that we can prove are equivalent to other instances... I'm pretty sure that's not TC anymore (although it's a different way to put the question than I'm used to) < 1281539663 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/instances/programs if you like < 1281539712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm not < 1281539716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm suggesting weaking the equality relation < 1281539718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, not a group, because it's not closed: A x B = C where A and B are provably equiavlent to somerhing, but C isn't < 1281539720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weakening < 1281539761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can have two computationally equivalent programs that are not equal, because it can't be proved using a certain specific set of rules < 1281539771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I think I see < 1281539777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're both part of the group, just /different/ group elements < 1281539785 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeeeeees < 1281539792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION grimaces
< 1281539835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How on earth would you show that the "unprovable elements" obey any of the laws, though? < 1281539849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no individual element is unprovable < 1281539854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the relationship between two of them < 1281539867 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, right < 1281539868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the laws are what you use to establish the equality relationship, so it's true by definition < 1281539883 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, two programs are equal if you can prove them equal using the group laws < 1281539891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which also implies they're computationally equivalent) < 1281539906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two programs might happen to be computationally equivalent for a different reason, in which case they aren't equal < 1281540301 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be a good way to re-seat the idea. I'm just trying to figure out if you lose anything (of significance). Currently, if 2 programs are equivalent for any reason, then they go into the same equivalence class and are treated as "the same thing" by the axioms. With the weaker definition, they would have to be "equivalent by the group axioms" in order to do that. OK, I think that's OK... Burro for example works < 1281540379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281540484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if learning Fortran would be good for a laugh.
< 1281540783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not just a laugh, if you wanted to break into the big bad world of high-performance numerical computing. < 1281540794 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to do that. < 1281540942 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_%28programming_language%29 < 1281541073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COBOL would be a heartier laugh. < 1281541114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are we to say "Cobol" now? Everyone says Lisp and Forth and Basic. Have shouted language names gone out of style? < 1281541135 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, ever since the ASCII became standard. < 1281541162 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_^ < 1281541171 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the kids these days, always with the ASCII. < 1281541193 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL ITS DECIDEDLY BETTER THAN THE ALTERNATIVE < 1281541217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOTHING WRONG WITH UPPERCASE < 1281541226 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E30A4.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281541228 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EASIER TO READ < 1281541231 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, as Lisp demonstrates. < 1281541233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEXIER < 1281541237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COOLER < 1281541238 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!lisp (print 'hello) < 1281541248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you think monospaced fonts are cool. < 1281541275 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your view of aesthetics in typography are of a similar value of a pigeon's. < 1281541287 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/view/views/ < 1281541308 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. < 1281541385 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, maybe so, but they don't know the first thing about typography. < 1281541436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is that statement vacuously true? < 1281541457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" s/view/views/" <<< clearly you know a lot about typography < 1281541458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1281541461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it < 1281541465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo-graphy < 1281541469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1281541472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1281541477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1281541488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's non-vacuously true < 1281541494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. < 1281541506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there is a known way to show a language is not regular, and it's pigeon-based? < 1281541508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that is a typo. They are common, due to the fact that humans are not designed to type. < 1281541508 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :211| pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. < 1281541510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1281541516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1281541526 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what is it/? < 1281541527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, not very literally :D < 1281541539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pun. < 1281541543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1281541554 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pun in Finnish? < 1281541560 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1281541564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in english though. < 1281541585 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do explain. < 1281541596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how do you show a lang is not regular? < 1281541604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about the socratic method < 1281541671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay the point is the characterization (and often the definition) of regular languages as those recognized by a one-way fsa < 1281541695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can develop a pumping lemma (often called "the" pumping lemma) for them, because of ... < 1281541705 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(insert pigeons.) < 1281541744 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1281541798 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more precisely, we think of the states as pigeons < 1281541820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i hope you get it already? < 1281541843 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but forget it. < 1281541901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pigeonhole principle, the letters of the string are the holes < 1281542009 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1281542061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm an elephant < 1281542114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you are, oklo, yes you are. < 1281542246 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281542892 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1281543000 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281543671 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@i-230.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1281544673 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281544818 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, I think I see that any "group over computational equivalence" has a corresponding "group over provable computational equivalence" which is technically weaker, but more tractable, while "saying almost the same thing". (I'm sure you could relate them more formally.) Now, I wonder about the converse. < 1281545078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281545208 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1281545427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1281545554 0 :FireFly|n900!~n900@c-b21c78d1-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281545643 0 :FireFly|n900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1281545960 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281545967 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1281546106 0 :Flonk!~chatzilla@93-82-41-88.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1281546439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281546448 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281546454 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1281546735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281546740 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281547491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@92.233.174.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281549569 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just became aware of the awesomeness of brainfuck
< 1281549665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1281549669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen iota? < 1281549688 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, whats iota < 1281549707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a combinator language with only one combinator and one non-logical symbol < 1281549733 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1281549824 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i thought brainfuck was masochistic. < 1281549856 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flonk, it's of the same computational class as Brainfuck, too. < 1281549984 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1281549992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what you mean by computational class < 1281549996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of power, any TC language is < 1281550000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda/Lazy K > Iota < 1281550008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean its a tarpit, only sort of < 1281550014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpits tend to be machine languages < 1281550020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas iota is a combinator language < 1281550034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has its roots in the lambda calculus, whereas machine languages have their roots in turing machines < 1281550483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Computational class" generally means "what kinds of things can it compute" in eso-land, rather than "what it has roots in" < 1281550516 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then its kind of useless to say that its in the same computational class as brainfuck < 1281550534 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because almost all esolangs are TC < 1281550543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like saying its in the same computational class as piet < 1281550557 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not useless, though. < 1281550580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pretty much is < 1281550582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its TC < 1281550585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most esolangs are < 1281550590 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd be surprised if one werent < 1281550635 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are quite a few that aren't. There are quite a few that *intentionally* aren't. < 1281550647 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like C? < 1281550663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't eso < 1281550673 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, O RLY? < 1281550673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its only not TC for silly reasons < 1281550681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its fucking weird, ill give you that < 1281550688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not an esolang < 1281550689 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Silly"? < 1281550697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1281550727 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not TC! How is it not TC for silly reasons! < 1281550737 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly, in that it gives you directly manipulable access to memory addresses, and therefore the size of pointers has to be visible < 1281550750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats what leads to the non-TCness < 1281550758 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, don't see where silly comes in. < 1281550780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size of pointers becomes a part of the language itself, not something thats invisible and happening only between the compiler and the machine code < 1281550812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its prooooobably true that you never need to actually know how big this or that pointer is < 1281550827 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want to, I dunno, store it. < 1281550828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need to be able to do math on pointer sizes < 1281550835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nope! < 1281550836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or send it across a wire. < 1281550848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, malloc? < 1281550852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need to allocated size(the_pointer) space! < 1281550879 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so you need to know what size(the_pointer) is! < 1281550895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you just need to be able to allocate enough space to store one < 1281550901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however much space that happens to be < 1281550905 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you know, prove that your real-time system can react to every event in less than 1 msec. < 1281550923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long will it take to follow this pointer? Well that's the thing see < 1281550928 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, oh, and what if you want, say, a dynamically-allocated 2D array? < 1281550936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think if you want to do that you should be coding in a language closer to the metal or with good verification :P < 1281550946 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closer to the metal than C... uh-huh. < 1281550950 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.80.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281550956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure! < 1281550958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ring 0 assembly? < 1281550963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C--, obviously. < 1281550965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xp < 1281551030 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, because C isn't sufficiently "close to the metal", it should be even "further away from the metal", to the point where it supports pointers of unbounded length? < 1281551044 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, yes. < 1281551050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, not at all < 1281551066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that it should make pointer size transparent < 1281551071 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, once size_t is unbounded you can make a MRM, I think. < 1281551099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: It would need pointers of unbounded size (unbounded at runtime, mind you) in order to be TC, you realize. < 1281551106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not actually sure if thats possible, im probably wrong, but i suspect that there are ways to write a language that is about that low level, but which can gloss over the details of any given machine < 1281551117 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, that's C. < 1281551136 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just high-level enough that it can run on most architectures. < 1281551146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well yes < 1281551153 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse, i think saying C isnt TC is kind of a trick < 1281551171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its as TC as any programming language on a given machine is < 1281551174 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to say, it isnt < 1281551180 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is irrelevant. < 1281551180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only because its on a finite machine < 1281551200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could design a computer with infinite memory then you could hav a TC C < 1281551209 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no, you couldn't. < 1281551219 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C's specification explicitly makes it a FSM. < 1281551220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you could < 1281551234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your integers would just have to be potentially an infinite number of bits long < 1281551236 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You couldn't make a standards-compliant TC C. < 1281551242 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, *impossible*! < 1281551251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impossible due to physics < 1281551254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(int *) *must* be bounded! < 1281551258 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(x) would need to be able to evaluate to the integer "infinity", which C doesn't define. < 1281551260 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, impossible due to the standard < 1281551260 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's *defined* that way. < 1281551278 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(x) would indeed evaluate to infinity < 1281551283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that ceases to be relevant < 1281551289 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there *is no infinity* defined in C < 1281551293 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More generally, sizeof must return a value of type size_t, which is itself defined to be finite. < 1281551294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C standard requires a finite size of integers and a finite size of pointers, meaning that the total program space is always finite < 1281551307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that may be so, but it doesnt matter < 1281551322 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it *does*. < 1281551335 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, because the language you're talking about is not C. < 1281551335 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that C has no defined infinity is precisely why it's a SILLY way to restrict C's computational power < 1281551337 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof cannot have infinity. < 1281551341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a technicality of non-TCness < 1281551347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not any sort of genuine conceptual limitation < 1281551357 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is. < 1281551360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its not < 1281551387 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's quite important < 1281551392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1281551410 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, it's silly to restrict TCness because of the impracticality of an infinite program space < 1281551411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any finite machine you can compile a C program to it < 1281551419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you cannot consider C to be TC < 1281551425 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt say it was! < 1281551431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said it was non-TC but only for silly reasons < 1281551456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said C on an infinite machine would be TC. Sadly, no. C-with-infinity might be. < 1281551466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok, fine < 1281551469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-with-infinity then < 1281551483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not a substantial change to the language to make it Not C < 1281551536 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, yes it is. < 1281551548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing, malloc would work completely differently. < 1281551568 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malloc(sizeof(void *)) == malloc(infinity) < 1281551589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but on a ram machine with each memory cell of infinite size < 1281551602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of just one bit < 1281551605 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty substantial because of C's memory model. In languages like Lisp you can get relative (and thus unbounded) addressing with things like car and cons. In C you have to use pointers, and pointers are castable to integers, so you have to deal with the possibility of infinite integers, etc. < 1281551624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i get that < 1281551634 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said, if you made pointers opaque < 1281551634 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not impossible to do, but it doesn't strike me as simple. < 1281551638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie not castable to integers < 1281551646 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, im not saying THAT wouldnt make it not C < 1281551683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i did also say that i really doubt that anyone truly NEEDS to see the pointers as integers in any substantial sense < 1281551702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer arithmetic is all for memory shuffling and i think you could probably just get away with a point type that has opaque mathematics < 1281551742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. Pascal does that. < 1281551831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just a suspicion tho, that you-the-programmer dont actually ever need to use pointers as ints outside of navigating memory < 1281551866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if thats the case, then you could probably gloss over that somehow like pascal, without substantially changing the nature of how c-programs are written < 1281551893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make it much harder to write a garbage collector or an OS kernel in C. Yes. < 1281551904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so i would consider that to be a silly sort of non-TC-ness, in the same way that any finite-tape turing machine is not-TC < 1281551913 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well sure, but why would you garbage collect on an infinite memory machine? :P < 1281551933 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wouldn't. But my machine doesn't *have* infinite memory. < 1281551935 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could never garbage collect and still have enough memory for any terminating program you want! < 1281551942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well im not saying it does < 1281552144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just dont think its very insightful to say that C is not turing complete, because it's /effectively/ turing complete < 1281552168 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not. I would call that a misunderstanding of what "Turing complete" means. < 1281552182 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1281552206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would say that denying it is a misunderstanding of it. :D < 1281552221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to say that a finite tape turing machine is not turing complete is entirely true < 1281552226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also entirely missing the point < 1281552238 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point being? < 1281552242 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281552254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that augur likes C. < 1281552265 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the differences between the automata's internal structure are far more important to computational power than the tape size < 1281552326 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, does the C standard allow for mmapping to external devices? < 1281552330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But actually, they aren't. A turing machine with a finite tape -> finite automaton. A pushdown automaton with finite stack -> finite automaton. Etc. < 1281552364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The internal structure is a technicality, computational-power-wise, if the storage size is fixed. < 1281552376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vice versa < 1281552410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because then we can define a fixed address o which can be used to interface to a TM. < 1281552413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since ToC studies the nature of computation, not the nature of harddrive space, the more salient and important aspect of study is and has always been the kinds of automata behavior < 1281552418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, has mostly been < 1281552432 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the incidental fun of what happens when you run out of memory is always a perenial issue < 1281552436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vice versa? The storage size is a technicality if the internal structure is fixed? I would hardly agree with that. < 1281552483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Can you tell me why you think Turing said his machine should have infinite tape? < 1281552490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what i mean is that the differences between the classes of automata, by their internal state-machine properties, are far more salient than the memory limitations they run up against < 1281552512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can give a TM more memory, and it can compute more and more complex classes of functions, up to TCness < 1281552598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a PDA with an infinite stack is still not TC < 1281552603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itll only get you the CF languages < 1281552630 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite memory does not a TM make < 1281552632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can you tell me why you think Turing designed his machine with an infinite tape? < 1281552638 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION imagines a little palmtop with an infinite stack poking out of it into the distance.
< 1281552653 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need infinite memory for TRUE TCness < 1281552664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you also need infinite memory for true CFness < 1281552668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah! So "TC" is not the same as "TRUE TC" < 1281552676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse it does < 1281552682 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i never used it otherwise < 1281552688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"effectively TC" does not mean "actually TC" < 1281552736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a computer that can simulate EVERY turing machine, minus the ones with trivial infinite loops, is also not ACTUALLY TC < 1281552739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its effectively TC < 1281552782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because the computer will not simulate while (true) {} doesnt mean its not effectively TC < 1281552794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just means it wont do computations that aren't really computing anything < 1281552839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er - well I don't think it's possible to design such a computer, by the Halting Problem, but that's a side-track < 1281552839 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@68-29-177-249.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281552842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think if you asked turing whether or not his definition was intended to explore computationaly ALGORITHMS < 1281552847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or computational vagaries < 1281552850 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'd say algorithms < 1281552855 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Should I call the Halting Problem HP so you can have other hallucinations?) < 1281552856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1281552859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse its possible < 1281552870 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recognition of trivial loops do not violate the halting problem < 1281552872 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why? < 1281552892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely because their recognition is not itself a non-terminating program. < 1281552909 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I can get your machine to simulate while (true) {} by giving it any number of other equivalent loops which it cannot recognize < 1281552935 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're getting into computational equivalence here, aren't we? < 1281552941 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your loop does anything in between cycles, then its not equivalent < 1281552952 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here be dragons! < 1281552959 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (It was re your PDA vision. HP = Hewlett-Packard, get it?) < 1281552965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it doesnt do anything inside the loop, then its trivially detectable < 1281552973 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hah. < 1281552975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already know that trivial infinite loops are detectable < 1281552979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not where the halting problem comes from < 1281553001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the halting problem comes from paradoxical cases where proving that some program will halt is also a proof that it wont halt < 1281553005 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: "Does anything"? I can give you thousands of pieces of code that are equivalent to doing nothing. < 1281553018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do go on < 1281553038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, while () {x++; x--} < 1281553043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt do nothing < 1281553046 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given an appropriate definition of x. < 1281553054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no effects outside of the loop < 1281553057 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it's *equivalent* to doing nothing. < 1281553059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but inside the loop it stil does something < 1281553063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its equivalent OUTSIDE of the loop < 1281553069 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (collatzHalts) x++; if (goldbachIsTrue) x--; < 1281553072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the behavior of the machine is not identical < 1281553085 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1281553097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that detection of trivial loops by behavior is possible < 1281553099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not about "behaviour of the machine", this is about "what functions can it compute or not compute". < 1281553110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you elminate any particular trivial loop, you cease to be TC < 1281553118 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, OK, so let's give that it eliminates trivial loops. It's still TC. < 1281553119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you cant simulate some particular turing machine < 1281553134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to be TC you have to be able to simulate EVERY turing machine < 1281553135 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Maybe my Turing machine can't read the letter A or produce the letter M. Therefore not TC? < 1281553160 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K is TC, but it works so non-TMily that you can't meaningfully compare them other than by which functions they can compute. < 1281553168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're simulating a turing machine, and your UTM design explicitly rejects turing machines that encode A's or M's somehow, then yes < 1281553169 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not TC < 1281553173 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's equivalent to "Can't read this particular syntax that gives an empty loop." There are an infinite number of others that do the same thing. < 1281553192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there are, but a UTM needs to be able to simulate EVERY turing machine < 1281553204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what makes it universal < 1281553210 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you can be TC without being a UTM. < 1281553215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you cant. < 1281553222 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See my comment above re Lazy K. < 1281553223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCness means being able to simulate any turing machine. < 1281553241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no, not really. It means it's able to compute anything a TM can. < 1281553243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if Lazy K is TC it can simulate a TM < 1281553248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not BE a TM < 1281553251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can simulate one < 1281553286 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can your limited TM. < 1281553290 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1281553297 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it can. < 1281553299 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes. You misunderstand "simulate". < 1281553304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i explicitly limited it to not be able to simulate a particular machine < 1281553311 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no you didn't. < 1281553314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i did < 1281553318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You forbade a single program. < 1281553325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1281553327 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a single machine. < 1281553332 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A particular machine is only one of an infinite number that *perform the same computation*. < 1281553339 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can still simulate one, just by interpreting. < 1281553341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and programs and machines are not distinguishable in any real fashion < 1281553353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might as well say, well, this UTM doesn't interpret the lambda caclulus, thus it isn't universal. < 1281553354 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can define a turing machine that is that program < 1281553358 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, point being? < 1281553371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point being is that i can then forbid that particular machine < 1281553386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the putative UTM stops being universal < 1281553387 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have demonstrated that any computation a TM can do can be done by your restricted TM. < 1281553402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is not the definition of TCness < 1281553405 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just by adding self-cancelling instructions into loops. < 1281553415 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, *yes it is*. < 1281553417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1281553418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isnt < 1281553424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote the wikipedia < 1281553425 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In computability theory, a collection of data-manipulation rules (an instruction set, programming language, or cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete if and only if such system can simulate a single-taped Turing machine." < 1281553438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not simply enough to be able to compute the same functions < 1281553440 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: If your UTM forbids machine X, then I just give your UTM, my UTM with X encoded as input to my UTM. Your UTM runs my UTM which runs X. Making your machine run X. < 1281553451 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Get it? < 1281553453 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What cpressey said. < 1281553473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are finite means for detecting such recodings. < 1281553482 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Actually, there aren't. < 1281553486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually there are. < 1281553489 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't even *decidable* means. < 1281553498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are FINITE means. < 1281553511 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho decidable and finite i suppose in this case mean the same thing. < 1281553520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't means that can be put in *your* UTM. < 1281553521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since all problems are solvable in finite time. < 1281553524 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1281553543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt say there were means that could be implemented in my particular UTM < 1281553548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho there might be < 1281553553 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so it's superturing? < 1281553553 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not all problems are solvable in finite time. *Some problems are not solvable*. < 1281553557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: nope < 1281553569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wonderfully bizare thing about this whole proof theory/theory of computation mess < 1281553578 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, there is a problem that can't be solved in finite time. We've mentioned it already. < 1281553580 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: By claiming you could build a machine that would not simulate X, you were claiming there were such means. < 1281553583 0 :Behold!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1281553585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that knowing that you cant know is not the same as knowing that you know you cant know < 1281553606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: there are lots of problems that cant be solved even in infinite time < 1281553617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it only takes finite time to discover that they're not solvable. < 1281553637 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no, not really. < 1281553641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes really < 1281553645 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the halting problem is one such example < 1281553654 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1281553660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not merely unsolvable in finite time, it is inherently paradoxical and impossible to solve at all < 1281553674 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, consider the Reimann hypothesis. < 1281553682 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the reimann hypothesis < 1281553684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is impossible to prove that it is undecidable. < 1281553704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? < 1281553710 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt say ALL undecidable problems are provably so < 1281553715 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that SOME are < 1281553729 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you keep changing your definition! < 1281553738 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while(1){x++;x--;} might have some effects in some cases if the optimizer won't remove it (or if it is marked as volatile). Such as, if x is at a invalid address it will be error, or, some memory mapped video or whatever, can have other effect < 1281553740 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in particular, the trivial infinite loops are provably infinite loops < 1281553757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the trivial infinite loops with no internal operations < 1281553758 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, and that makes not a jot of difference to the computational class. < 1281553765 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse it does < 1281553772 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You don't seem to understand that disallowing "while (1) {}" does not make your machine non-Turing-complete. < 1281553772 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For reasons comprehensively outlined above. < 1281553779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, it does < 1281553785 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: No, it doesn't. < 1281553787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1281553797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have forbidden certain turing machines < 1281553806 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there all Excess Flood at the top? < 1281553810 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a whole class of turing machines that do certain endless things < 1281553827 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: The lambda calculus forbids ALL Turing machines. Therefore it must not be Turing complete either! < 1281553828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as a result, you are not capable of simulating them, and thus you're not TC < 1281553834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1281553842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lambda calculus simulates all turing machines < 1281553850 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: But it depends what other functions you might have, you might be able to do other things with it too < 1281553853 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, SO DOES YOUR RESTRICTED TM < 1281553857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1281553863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just said it doesnt, Phantom_Hoover < 1281553876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *does*! < 1281553879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1281553880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt < 1281553882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here watch < 1281553892 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as, Icoruma has no kind of while loops, but you can still call yourself. < 1281553895 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can put a UTM on it and make it simulate the forbidden ones! < 1281553901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I define a TM which is Turing Complete sans all TMs that are equivalent in behavior to while (true) {} < 1281553915 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C preprocessor codes can also call themself by #include files. < 1281553925 0 :Behold!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1281553934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this machine is not turing complete by explicit declaration < 1281553935 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Be careful about "equivalent in behaviour" -- you mean "externally observable behaviour", right? < 1281553964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the operation of the machine being simulated, or the operation of the machine being simulated by the machine being simulated, etc. < 1281553976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :down the infinitude of ways of simulating < 1281553991 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That's not how Turing completeness is defined. < 1281554002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1281554006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not defining turing completeness < 1281554009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im defining non-turing completeness < 1281554018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are using the definition of TC. < 1281554020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, a particular machine that is not turing complete < 1281554056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define such a machine that will detect all trivial infinite loops of that sort, regardless of how many layers of simulation they go through < 1281554062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can do it in finite time < 1281554067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without itself employing such a loop < 1281554093 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A system is TC if it can compute every function that a Turing machine can. (roughly speaking.) It does not have to do every "operation" that the Turing machine does, nor does it have to be "equivalent in behaviour" at the states-and-transitions level. If it meant that, nothing except TMs could be TC. < 1281554106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not the definition of turing complete, sorry. < 1281554121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the definition of extensional equivalent of computers < 1281554124 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it is. Sorry. < 1281554125 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are different things entirely. < 1281554135 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Errr no actually they're basically the same thing. < 1281554138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're closely related, but they're not the same thing. < 1281554157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal definition is to do with equivalence of halting behaviour on arbitrary input < 1281554165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's rather unclear as to how the input is involved < 1281554220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, regardless < 1281554271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281554282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without the ability to finitely detect these things, there is still a set of turing machines which will halt on all inputs that in some way or other would be a trivial loop < 1281554290 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you killed ais! < 1281554296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the decidability of that particular set is, ofcourse, irrelevant to the point < 1281554320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every member of that set is a turing machine which will halt on some program that they should not halt on if they were TC < 1281554323 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Not if you want to build that UTM, which I believe you said you could. < 1281554331 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine, forget building a UTM < 1281554346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point i was trying to make was immaterial to the actual ability to do these things < 1281554355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point was that such a TM is all but turing complete < 1281554402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its only turing complete on a particular class of utterly useless loops that do no sort of computation but instead just cycle through some number of states endlessly < 1281554423 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks sidelong at Phantom_Hoover
< 1281554442 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultimate Teller Machine? < 1281554448 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, that's all I've got. < 1281554449 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that its might be impossible to say which turing machine is such a machine is irrelevant < 1281554463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not bad, not bad... < 1281554471 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281554477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, stated in those terms its trivial < 1281554490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would catch all the equivalent x++x-- examples < 1281554513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a two tape turing machine, one for work and one for state tracking < 1281554522 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yay, you just "effectively solved" the halting problem. < 1281554527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i didnt < 1281554538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the same sense that your finite tape machine is "effectively TC" < 1281554550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt even remotely effectively solve it < 1281554585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point i was making, however, is that something can be non-TC without being non-TC in any meaningful way < 1281554592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's a set of TMs which always halt. We don't know which ones they are. But identifying them is irrelevant! < 1281554624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, it is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not there are some TMs that always halt < 1281554631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the question is "do some TMs always halt?" < 1281554638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it doesnt matter what the full set of those are < 1281554651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only relevant thing is to find one that does, or find a proof that one does < 1281554658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same is true of C being effectively TC < 1281554693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any halting computation that cannot be performed on some C program compiled for an arbitrarily large machine? no. < 1281554732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there non-halting computations that will halt on arbitrarily large C machines? yes. < 1281554768 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281554793 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theory of computation has little to say about non-halting computations because there's not much _to_ say, if the object of inquiry is the computation of functions < 1281554826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-halting machines do not compute functions, they simply work on memory. < 1281554831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: So why do you think Turing included the section on Enumeration machines in his original paper? < 1281554886 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there IS this theoretical construct in which a machine that takes infinite time does actually halt via some magical process < 1281554916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because non-halting machines are still useful for lots of things < 1281554938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought there was not much to say about them < 1281554964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isnt. hence why there isn't much said < 1281554972 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're useful for lots of things. < 1281554981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, non-halting computations? < 1281554993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you not just say just that? < 1281554996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but then you're outside the realm of computational equivalence and into _behavioral_ equivalence. < 1281555016 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, a computation cannot have an infinite result? < 1281555025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still a computation. < 1281555042 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how this disqualifies it from computational equivalence. < 1281555044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a hypercomputation < 1281555072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is beyond the realm of TCness < 1281555087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what is your actual point? < 1281555117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is that while C is not _actually_ TC, the ways in which it is not TC are like the ways in which a UTM-minus-trivial-loops is not TC < 1281555132 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, and our point is that that's rubbish. < 1281555151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you show me how then. < 1281555182 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me a UTM-minus-infinite-loops, and I can still write any program I want for it. < 1281555182 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a) C is an FSM and b) UTM-minus-trivial-loops is TC unless you invoke superturing stuff. < 1281555193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not one that loops infinitely! < 1281555205 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I missed a word there. < 1281555218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me a UTM-minus-*trivial*-infinite-loops, and I can still write any program I want for it. < 1281555226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, dont even worry about triviality < 1281555227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was your example from before, was it not? < 1281555235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take any non-trivial infinite loop, honestly, it doesnt matter < 1281555239 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then, < 1281555242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take any non-halting turing machine if you want < 1281555260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me a UTM-minus-*all*-infinite-loops and I'll give you a solution to the Halting Problem. < 1281555261 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats actually completely fine, the triviality was merely to point out that its possible to do in finite time < 1281555339 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldve said any non-halting looping machine, actually not simply any non-halting machine < 1281555340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1281555350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you wont, because its no longer universal, and therefore cannot answer correctly that a machine with no loops but with non-halting non-loops. < 1281555365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are plenty of turing machines that do not halt but do not loop < 1281555404 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the point of view of computabilty, only halting matters. Who cares if the machine "loops" or not, whatever that means? < 1281555416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it matters because loops are deciable < 1281555427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, detection of them is decidable < 1281555435 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need to do is record the state of your simulated machine < 1281555444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually itll cycle through a previous state < 1281555448 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some finite amount of time < 1281555450 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you halt < 1281555469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loop detection is decidable < 1281555495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a machine that does not simulate a machine with loops is not TC, even if it simulates everything else < 1281555498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so what < 1281555506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a boring, uninteresting kind of non-TC-ness < 1281555512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah sure its technically not TC < 1281555523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but big fucking deal < 1281555546 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You are boring and uninteresting, too. < 1281555560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wanted to argue with me so you got it < 1281555573 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: And I regret it. < 1281555575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you didnt want to be bored, you shouldnt argue things that you're wrong about. < 1281555609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you should at least not argue them with someone who's willing to spend hours to demonstrate that you're wrong. < 1281555627 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...at any cost, it would seem. < 1281555640 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the cost is to social relationships, its not a cost at all < 1281555649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the cost is to my happiness, i cant say im any less happy as a result < 1281555664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I would say that the cost is to truth, but maybe you don't believe in that either. < 1281555675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no cost to truth either < 1281555684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nothing ive said was false. < 1281555707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You corrected yourself several times. < 1281555719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i corrected myself, then it didnt cost truth. < 1281555719 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, you must have said at least one false thing, at one point. < 1281555846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that last is a great example of defending yourself at any cost. < 1281555863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure you think that < 1281555879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the end, i was right, you were wrong < 1281555883 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats all that matters. < 1281555893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good attitude. < 1281555900 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1281555951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor cpressey. hurt and insulted by a simple discussion about C and turing completeness < 1281555951 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the award for obnoxious bloody-mindedness goes to: augur! < 1281555965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im happy to be blood-minded about things that dont matter. < 1281555974 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no, by the fact that he couldn't punch you in the face, which you deserved. < 1281555989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and he deserved it more than i ever did < 1281556020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the least because you'd punch someone in the face over something as inconsequential as this < 1281556076 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I'm going to stop discussing this. You aren't going to be convinced you're wrong. < 1281556089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why should i be when im not < 1281556092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be silly < 1281556114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've already established that detection of looping behavior is decidable < 1281556126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not, by the way, news to anyone with any actual ToC experience < 1281556161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which demonstrates that lack of TCness is not necessarily a significant constraint on a machine < 1281556174 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the only point i was trying to make about C < 1281556195 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the case with C; there are problems that are not solvable by C. < 1281556212 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example? < 1281556227 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The brackets problem. < 1281556233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1281556247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check whether a given string is balanced. < 1281556256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1281556259 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is an FSM, so it can't solve it < 1281556274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats perhaps not solvable for a string of arbitrary size < 1281556281 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a machine of different arbitrary size < 1281556300 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the same is true of any programming language on a finite machine < 1281556325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, for all strings, there exists some finite machine on which C can solve the problem for that string. < 1281556373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the string is infinitely long, but that computation wouldnt halt and has no answer < 1281556399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least no turing computation would halt < 1281556442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point remains: there is no halting computation which C cannot compute. there are merely halting computations which some particular machine running C code cannot compute < 1281556600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the same is true of any programming language on any machine < 1281556601 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except abstract machines, i mean. < 1281556601 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus, we come full circle: C might not be TC, but is only not TC in an uninteresting sense. < 1281556783 0 :Gregor-W!836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281556800 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, do you have something interesting to say? < 1281556808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: my suggestion is, if at any point in the future i describe something as silly < 1281556813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont argue with me < 1281556813 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the real argument is that you can't even define a C compiler targeting an abstract machine that would be TC, because too many details of real machines are baked into the language, namely maximum memory size. < 1281556854 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry, didn't read the whole backlog, not sure if I'm arguing something that's already been argued) < 1281556857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: probably true, tho irrelevant, because you can always define maxmemsize to be larger than it is. < 1281556868 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Not when it IS infinite. < 1281556877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly true < 1281556893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not entirely sure of that, but im not going to argue either way < 1281556897 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, actually true. < 1281556909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would just say that anything that requires infinite memory is a silly computation to perform < 1281556913 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless, you can modify C to add some new commands, such as "integer" and "real" and disallow sizeof to be used on them < 1281556926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you disagree you can timetravel into the past and relive the last hour :) < 1281556927 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only argument I've heard that I found compelling that could maybe make it almost make sense is that if you had infinite memory AND infinite-sized words, then sizeof(void*) could in fact be infinity, which would make everything "work" < 1281556929 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it's not so much "infinite" as unbounded. < 1281556943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: any halting computation requires only finite memory < 1281556952 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: But you can't predict how much memory it will require. < 1281556957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt matter. < 1281556961 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes, it does. < 1281556965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you hit the memory wall, then you upgrade < 1281556967 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, yes. Finite, *unbounded* memory. < 1281556973 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, *you cannot do that in C*, < 1281556979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1281556983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have to recompile < 1281556983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1281556991 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, upgrading your machine is not part of C X-P < 1281556992 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, that's not even vaguely C. < 1281557006 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION -> lunch
< 1281557007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: nor is the output of the compiled code :) < 1281557027 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: The computation can depend on sizeof(void *), so you may end up with a different computation in the upgraded machine. < 1281557030 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else you could do is, make a kind of C that numbers and pointers are not interchangeable, even though you can add numbers and pointers together < 1281557037 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: possibly. < 1281557044 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, we are talking standard C. < 1281557049 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again, i would classify that distinction as a silly < 1281557054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is still written in C < 1281557058 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compile product might be different < 1281557064 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the C source is the same < 1281557070 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language spec is the same < 1281557076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the language is not the limitation here < 1281557080 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does C require computation? < 1281557087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/computation/compilation. < 1281557098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s|.|/| < 1281557100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine you could interpret it < 1281557114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be a bitch of an interpreter to write < 1281557121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it sounds like something someone here would do < 1281557133 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does... < 1281557136 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as it was written in brainfuck < 1281557137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1281557152 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tables turned! < 1281557235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always < 1281557285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, zzo38: the suggestion of making numbers not interchangable with pointers was something i suggested before the argument got anywhere interesting < 1281557296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the response was that that was no longer C < 1281557306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is true, but also true in an uninteresting way :P < 1281557344 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, uninteresting in the sense that a load of C programs would cease to work? < 1281557408 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backwards compatibility is not my concern ;) < 1281557429 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could still allow pointers to be used as boolean values (many C programs require it) < 1281557435 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uninteresting in the sense that any program that ceases to work was probably a hack or written out of ignorance < 1281557526 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which letters are missing? http://sprunge.us/VJAR < 1281557578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281557592 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281557592 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1281557622 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281557665 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, pointer → bool is definitely not standards compliant. < 1281557728 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, so it probably isn't standards compliant. A lot of programs use it. Also some programs use GNU extensions to C. And other things. < 1281557814 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, assuming NULL is 0 is non-compliant because NULL is undefined. It could be 0xDEADBEEF for all you know. < 1281557866 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Still, NULL==0 is very common. Although you should still avoid such things as that (and other things) if you want to be standard compliant. < 1281557923 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even if NULL is not zero, it should be somewhat reasonable to make a compiler where a pointer used as boolean is false if NULL and true otherwise < 1281557943 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yes. < 1281558043 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1281558047 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1281558096 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can have a #pragma setting that tells it whether or not the current module should treat pointer->boolean this way, and if assigning 0 to a pointer makes it NULL, and then you can turn off this setting in some other modules that contain platform-specific codes.) < 1281559009 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281559128 0 :ski!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1281560080 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.81.239 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281560198 0 :Gregor-W!836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281560203 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still arguing about C? < 1281560238 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1281560248 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good :P < 1281560252 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now we are arguing about http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi < 1281560272 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This time about the actual text more, and less about the formatting. Although comment on the formatting as well if you want to) < 1281560308 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The file is available as PDF also, in case you prefer PDF) < 1281560389 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please read the texts I have added, and tell me if is understandable and stuff and so on, about if you think is good, if you have other suggestion, etc < 1281560586 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me your opinion of this game? < 1281560668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: NULL is not 0, but (void*)0 is NULL. < 1281560686 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if the literal value of NULL is not 0, (void*)0 is NULL. < 1281560756 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So wait, if (malloc(1)) must always be false if malloc fails? < 1281560798 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1281560807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. NULL is always false. < 1281560809 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Phantom_Hoover: This is perhaps the most confusing conversation you two have ever had :P < 1281560840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, what other confusing conversations have we had? < 1281560856 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my point? Maybe? Idonno. < 1281560898 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes sense NULL is always false, but what happens for if you are writing platform-specific codes you want accessing address zero? That is why you should have the #pragma that I described < 1281560940 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, why would you want to access the value at 0? < 1281560948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The result of casting from a number to a pointer is implementation-defined, so... < 1281560977 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There are various possible reasons, depending on the hardware, it might be useful in some cases < 1281560988 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only time you'd want to do that would be when writing really low-level OS code, at which point NULL isn't even meaningful. < 1281561027 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if it is platform-specific you can write some codes in assembly language even < 1281561058 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, exactly. < 1281561104 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you actually need to twiddle with explicit addresses, you probably don't have malloc and friends. < 1281561218 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. But what if the C compiler on that platform defines something other than zero as NULL and you write ((void*)0) then it don't works?????????????????? < 1281561234 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, why would you do so? < 1281561297 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need to define NULL to be something other than zero, but if some platforms do so, what are you going to do? < 1281561315 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that will work 100% < 1281561332 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :casting an integral constant of 0 to a pointer type gives the null value < 1281561336 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is dumb) < 1281561348 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No one, past present or future, will EVER define NULL to be anything other than 0. Furthermore, no one, past present or future, will EVER define casts between ints and pointers to be anything but their obvious semantics. EV-ER. < 1281561351 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, *0 is perfectly legitimate C, it will just segfault on pretty much anything. < 1281561400 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes and I have written things like *0 to make the program deliverately segfault when I wanted to put breakpoints into the source file < 1281561415 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, OK, that's insane, but anyway... < 1281561428 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not insane at all. < 1281561430 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do that. < 1281561439 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't he have _exit < 1281561478 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That won't break in a debugger. < 1281561498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debuggers already have breakpoints. They're called breakpoints. < 1281561549 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and the debugger breakpoint is useful for setting breakpoints at run time. But it doesn't help if you want to add breakpoints into the source file. < 1281561572 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that is sensible enough. < 1281561592 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what might happen if a line number occurs multiple times in a source file, what will the debugger do with that? < 1281561608 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would that happen? < 1281561617 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Such as, by using #line command) < 1281561634 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I accept that using segfaults for breakpoints is sometimes sensible. < 1281561656 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it permitted to use the #line command to mention files that do not exist? < 1281561680 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you manually manipulate the lie numbers < 1281561689 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/lie/line/s/$/?/ < 1281561736 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other programs might cause a line number multiple times, such as Enhanced CWEB < 1281561760 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Why would Enhanced CWEB do this, but not CWEB? < 1281561800 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normal CWEB does this as well, but with Enhanced CWEB you might have the same line number multiple times but with a different code on the line each time, in some cases. < 1281561839 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, isn't that a bit... mad? < 1281561863 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it is? But I am OK with that < 1281562210 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition, there are cases where a chunk might be used multiple times, but the C preprocessor might make them different each time (this can happen even in normal CWEB), such as "#define global extern" and put @ in heading file and then "#define global" as just blank for in main file, which some programs do. < 1281562337 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it taken you some amount of time to figure out if I am insane? < 1281562701 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, do you have any opinion about Icosahedral RPG? < 1281563279 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281564149 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1281564197 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1281564480 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1281564610 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1281565158 0 :Flonk_!~chatzilla@80-123-45-28.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1281565255 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1281565259 0 :Flonk_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Flonk < 1281565652 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281566093 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1281566291 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281566375 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1281566414 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E30A4.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281566571 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1281566593 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1281566805 0 :tombom__!tombom@86.29.71.221 JOIN :#esoteric < 1281566954 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281566957 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :// < 1281567057 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1281567147 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1281567211 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Can yesweb handle multiple languages in the same document? < 1281567238 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if I write some modules of my program in (Literate) Pascal, and some in (Literate) C, and I want to make a PDF of the whole thing... < 1281567263 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't need to do this. I just thought I'd ask) < 1281567288 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. yesweb does support multiple languages in same document. < 1281567295 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1281567302 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to an utterly unreliable "study", iPhone users get more sex than BlackBerry or Android users. < 1281567306 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knew? < 1281567327 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, to output to multiple files you need to define a macro for that (it is simple to do). < 1281567345 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it is not built-in, but it is easy to add. < 1281567375 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way in Haskell to get an appropriate "null" value for an arbitrary type? < 1281567378 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can add it to yesweb.tex if I want to or if someone else does or if it is seen as common enough) < 1281567405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Maybe a where a is your type? < 1281567417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use Nothing for null and Just x for x < 1281567421 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no, I mean an actual member of a. < 1281567433 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using Maybe seems... wrong. < 1281567456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not using something like Maybe seems... not possible. < 1281567457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: there as some type classes that have null values sort of, but they're far from all types < 1281567473 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah, a typeclass would be enough. < 1281567498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like class Null a where { null :: a } < 1281567517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'd have to have a function on your typeclass that tells you what member the "null" is. < 1281567522 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are different models of Android phones, but I read about Geeksphone which might be the best kind of Android phone < 1281567532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are free to define such a class yourself, of course < 1281567537 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you have a type like "Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Number"? < 1281567544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t mzero < 1281567555 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, yews. < 1281567557 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/w// < 1281567566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, except you need some parentheses there < 1281567569 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are types like any other. < 1281567587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell mzero < 1281567603 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can even have IO (Maybe (Maybe (IO (State Int ())))) < 1281567614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn EgoBot and its useless error messages < 1281567622 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, more GHC. < 1281567631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, definitely EgoBot < 1281567646 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you ever have a use for that kind of types like I described? < 1281567651 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, surely it just gives you EgoBot's error. < 1281567668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I was trying to think of a "serious" use for that, but I can't. < 1281567682 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, you might sometimes. If you want to mix State and IO, you would do that kind of thing. < 1281567684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, which is useless, due to the way it throws away ghci errors and tries module compilation with runghc instead < 1281567696 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ohh. < 1281567708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would almost always want to combine multiple Maybes into a single Maybe. < 1281567727 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes, that specific example is useless. < 1281567735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :i MonadZero < 1281567747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :info MonadZero < 1281567753 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :h < 1281567761 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But other combinations of monads are perfectly justified. < 1281567765 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commands available from the prompt: < 1281567770 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn "hello" < 1281567778 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1281567806 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, in any case, mzero isn't really what I was looking for. < 1281567806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION asks winhugs instead
< 1281567851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i was just trying to find out if mzero was MonadZero (it was) or Monoid, and what the one for the other was (mempty) < 1281567879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course Num types have 0 < 1281567882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mzero appears to be defined in Control.Monad. < 1281567886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1281567889 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell Just (Just 1) < 1281567902 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just (Just 1) < 1281567903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t Just (Just 1) < 1281567910 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just (Just 1) :: (Num t) => Maybe (Maybe t) < 1281567923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t Just Nothing < 1281567928 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just Nothing :: Maybe (Maybe a) < 1281567931 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implement the SARTRE integer in Haskell. < 1281567943 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The SARTRE integer can have two values, either zero or duck sauce) < 1281567962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell data SartreInteger = Zero | DuckSauce < 1281567965 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SARTRE = Zero | Du.. < 1281567978 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot tried to hurt me for that < 1281568002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beh, need to leave anyway :/ < 1281568006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you have to make it it can be used like "0" like any other numbers? < 1281568018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1281568025 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gibbers at cpressey
< 1281568033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: anyway haskell provides Maybe precisely to _discourage_ you from considering arbitrary types to have null elements, it's considered a _wart_ to have nearly all types have nulls like in Java etc. < 1281568053 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, I suppose. < 1281568160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a data definition is neither a ghci command/expression nor a standalone program (needs a main function) < 1281568171 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make it an instance of Num, you'd be able to add, subtract, ec < 1281568173 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1281568263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: instance Num SARTRE where fromInteger 0 = Zero; fromInteger _ = DuckSauce + lots of other methods < 1281568297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fromInteger is the one which gives you numerical literals) < 1281568330 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1281568342 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1281568393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've tried it in EgoBot before and if you don't include all the necessary methods it just aborts with a warning < 1281568398 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad's suggesting I take benedril to help me go to sleep < 1281568421 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wikipedia, I did not mean a pokemon < 1281568450 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__, I have a good way of getting to sleep. < 1281568465 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hit yourself in the head with a lamp. < 1281568480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nearly typed "lambda" rather than "lamp" there
< 1281568498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lambda shaped lamp < 1281568501 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although hitting yourself in the head with a lambda may help with sleeping. < 1281568576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i often do something analogous to hitting myself in the head with a lambda < 1281568637 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what would that be? < 1281568639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sleep generally ends up involving me in a semi-conscious state trying to understand how it is that i, as a function of some variables, will ever get back to sleep since im simply laying in bed and not being applied to any values < 1281568646 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would apparently constitute < 1281568651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"falling asleep" < 1281568657 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I get like that sometimes. < 1281568661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's weird... < 1281568662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i do mean that literally < 1281568674 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other day i was doing a lot of categorial-grammar related stuff < 1281568684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, get some variables and apply yourself to them. < 1281568687 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is essentially type-level functions with directionality < 1281568703 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at one point i wont up slightly, and ended up having that exact thought < 1281568704 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes I do sometimes think of strange things like that while sleeping, but probably not quite that < 1281568718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it wasnt some metaphorical interpretation of sexual loneliness < 1281568722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you dig really deep < 1281568733 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a literal thing < 1281568757 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I mean it in the same way, it is never anything about sexual loneliness < 1281568770 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1281568772 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, how do you know? < 1281568776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was very bizarre < 1281568800 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so did you find any variables? < 1281568813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i fell asleep < 1281568814 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't actually know, I just guess. But when I am sleep I think of strange things, of various strange things, some of which are impossible to describe, but it has nothing to do with sexual loneliness < 1281568845 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thought a while ago that computers were basically machine code interpreters written in universe.
< 1281568848 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the context of the metaphor i decided that i must be a thunk, not a proper function or else i wasnt going to fall asleep any time soon < 1281568850 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1281568860 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all perversely sexually interpretable, lol < 1281568865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite an interesting way of looking at things. < 1281568880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its entirely a result of me working on a parser < 1281568881 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Of course I suppose anything can be if you want it to be. < 1281568893 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But I don't want it to be) < 1281568909 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no such things as thunks in the pure lambda calculus, though. < 1281568915 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything can be applied. < 1281568953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: true enough, but thats ok < 1281569373 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if alise has heard about Multics' memory model.
< 1281569445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very similar to what he outlined. < 1281570065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1281570072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatd she outline? < 1281570182 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is the new version of yesweb with output of multiple files: http://sprunge.us/YVXY < 1281571049 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Hit yourself in the head with a lambda. < 1281571134 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are vector processors little-used?