00:02:01 cpressey, best I can come up with: eyes TAC at a cats eye 00:04:29 thick catseye stack chit ? 00:05:10 eye stack late talk cats eye 00:05:39 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:10:07 I have typeset the Ed stories up to the end of Spacéd; the typography is not perfect, but pretty damn good, and I'd appreciate any comments. pikhq, Sgeo? 00:10:11 I'll give you a PDF if you want. 00:10:24 Email? 00:10:34 * Sgeo is going to start tutoring soon 00:10:38 As in, a few min 00:10:57 Or, a few seconds actually 00:11:24 Let me guess; you're teaching C# to somebody online. 00:11:38 Without, of course, considering whether knowing something is truly equal to being able to teach it ... 00:14:22 Well, he's mostly reading a book (not one that I suggested, one that he chose) and I can answer any questions, etc. etc. 00:14:36 Also, technical difficulties right now :/ 00:15:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:15:28 A few things are lost when converting the Ed stories to dead tree format... 00:15:33 For instance, the lovely little links back everywhere. 00:16:15 * oerjan starts envisioning some system of threads embedded in books for linking 00:19:26 alise, any chance of an ePub version? 00:20:16 Sgeo: Why bother? I am doing this for the typography. 00:20:34 I don't care about ereaders that don't respect typography, i.e. all of them, apart from the ones with a PDF reader. 00:20:55 When this is done, if I get permission from Sam I'll publish it on Lulu in the highest-quality hardback they offer. 00:21:10 clearly we need to tunnel TeX-over-IRC 00:22:18 This is so easy; my converter basically lets me paste the HTML in and it spits out LaTeX. 00:22:30 Add chapter titles, wrap lines for my convenience, replace breaks with \pbreak, remove links... that's about it. 00:22:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:22:39 pikhq: Is there any difference between \emph{c} and $c$? 00:23:17 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:26:59 Aargh, Sam Hughes uses ONE em-dash in a chapter where every other dash is ens -- not even ens, just "-". 00:27:10 Am I meant to RESPECT that crazy, CRAZY wish? 00:27:35 I think I will interpret it as meaning that all breaks in conversation, in quotes, should be em-dashes. 00:33:59 Didn't Sam once rant about Lulu? 00:37:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:43:03 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:47:25 Sgeo: Perhaps. I don't know. 00:48:26 http://www.google.com/search?q=lulu&sitesearch=qntm.org 00:48:28 I don't think so. 00:48:42 "Ed stories" is a surprisingly long book. 00:49:08 Up to the end of the first chapter of The End Of The Game, it's 107 pages. 00:54:14 alise, http://qntm.org/faq 00:54:28 It doesn't reference Lulu by name, just as "self-publishing" 00:54:49 erm, major FS spoilers near that question 00:55:44 alise, http://pastie.org/private/chm2vxv8ylymbkzvu4qebq wthout the spoilers. You're just going to have to believe me that that's what it says 01:00:22 alise, you still there, or did I traumatize you? 01:00:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 01:02:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:04:33 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:04:59 Sgeo: Well, it's a pretty fucking stupid remark. 01:05:06 Lulu isn't "self-publishing", it's self-printing. 01:05:20 o.O 01:05:24 Actually, that answer is very assholish for Sam. 01:05:24 What's the difference >.> 01:05:49 Sgeo: Self-publishing is like PublishAmerica. Self-printing is just: you give them the PDF, the near-bitmap (well, vector) of what you fucking want on the page, and they supply the hardback. 01:05:58 Gutenberg over TCP/IP. There's nothing disrespectful about that. 01:06:02 Nothing loser-y. 01:06:16 Deja Vu 01:06:18 Severe Deja Vu 01:06:50 Sgeo: ? 01:07:16 Regarding the Gutenberg comment, watching someone play the game, and tutoring this person 01:07:21 Like I've done exactly this before 01:07:55 -!- sshc has joined. 01:08:33 Well. You haven't. 01:08:47 Intellectually, I know that 01:12:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:15:17 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:18:04 !simpleacro 01:18:07 OR 01:19:12 Onomatopoeia Reduction 01:19:21 !simpleacro 01:19:24 SKBKNFZB 01:19:47 Sexy Klingons Bonking Knaves Nightly, Fucking Zaphod's Beetles. 01:20:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:20:26 alise: interesting analysis. 01:21:36 (Smalltalk > CSharp) ifFalse: [ Transcript show: 'Liar!' ] 01:22:20 Sgeo: Wanna take on a menial job for me? You'll get recognition in the colophon, which is what you like to be paid in, right? :P 01:22:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:22:35 colophon? 01:23:21 The little bit in small, centred text at the start of a book that tells you what typeface it uses and the copyright notes and everything. 01:23:27 Ah 01:23:34 Depends on what the menial job is 01:23:39 I'd put you on the Thanks page, except I don't think I should put my thanks on other people's novels. 01:23:41 Smalltalk ifTooMuchExpressionification [exit] 01:24:10 +: 01:24:11 CakeProphet, you forgot a : 01:24:15 :D 01:24:22 well 01:24:30 Too bad blocks can't be messages, afaik 01:24:32 too much expressionification is fine in a language, but it better be terse. 01:24:34 Sgeo: Read my beautifully-typeset (but-not-quite-perfectly!) production of the Ed stories, and tell me every time you see a short dash - like -, not -- - in "something a character is saying, as if their speech was broken off-". The exact quote would be nice, but chapter is fine too. 01:24:48 There will be no long -- dashes until the later paragraphs, which should make it a whole lot easier. 01:25:02 As a bonus, you get to gawp over my wonderful typesetting. :P 01:25:15 Fun fact: It's 130 pages. 01:25:15 Isn't it easy to just search for -? 01:25:24 You should name Humanistic Conceit 01:25:38 CakeProphet: wat 01:25:41 (the typeface, I assume) 01:25:47 Sgeo: Except that outside "speech", it /should/ be -. 01:26:01 Ok, so this will be incredibly easy 01:26:10 Just need to use my humanness 01:26:38 Eh, I'm actually doing it manually. 01:26:45 alise: I was suggesting a name for any conceited typefaces you might make. 01:26:45 Don't worry, I'll find you another menial task you can do for recognition! 01:26:51 CakeProphet: Ah. 01:27:05 conceited typeface? 01:27:08 though fungot tends to be better at this sort of thing. 01:27:09 CakeProphet: moral heroism, on the contrary, have omitted no pains to instruct them, blame them for giving ear to the demagogue who took pains to delude them? we must have nomination at gatton because we have launched our ship with a reconciled spirit, and have maintained that the resistance of power, and of the surrounding region. the security, which it is impossible not to observe, that the speaker must infallibly come back t 01:30:57 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:31:11 I feel as though I am perhaps insane. 01:32:51 Sgeo: So, want to take a look at the draft version? 01:33:24 CakeProphet: it's all the alien spider goblins' fault! 01:33:28 alise, I.. guess 01:33:55 Sgeo: GOOD! MWAHAHAHA SLAVE http://filebin.ca/fxgocj/ed.pdf 01:34:19 I included "Free, Standing" as an epilogue. It works well. 01:35:35 everything works well when you have balls the size of planets. 01:36:50 Why isn't there a table of contents? 01:37:14 Sgeo: Because novels shouldn't have tables of contents. 01:37:19 oerjan: hyuk hyuk hyuk 01:37:44 ....since when did #esoteric become #typography 01:37:49 Three minutes ago. 01:38:03 CakeProphet: it was inevitable, really. 01:38:40 hmmm. I guess? I have absolutely no interest in typography. 01:39:21 So you have said. 01:57:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:00:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:01:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:18:43 Sgeo: any comments on ed.pdf? 02:19:15 What's so special about typesetting? 02:19:20 It all just looks like text 02:19:33 I was about to ask some questions ... but never mind. 02:19:45 What were those questions? 02:20:05 I'm not sure the page-big part headings are such a good idea; I think Be Here Now, for instance, should be lead into naturally, not announced. But then I can't see how to make that consistent with the other parts, which aren't named in their chapter titles. 02:20:14 But if you're not even seeing the point of typesetting, erm, never mind. 02:20:47 Makes text look pretty, I guess? 02:21:19 Sgeo: you got it. 02:21:31 CakeProphet: No, he hasn't. 02:23:09 well, barring any sort of pretension 02:23:19 the basic idea of typography is to make visually appealing type. 02:23:41 that is not true 02:23:43 and has never been true 02:24:19 the basic idea of typography is to make /readable/ type, to the finest degree possible: this ends up being visually appealing to get your mind into a consistent reading rhythm in accordance with the whitespace, etc. 02:24:48 after all, if you -- subconsciously -- flag anything as looking "awkward", even if you don't realise it, it jarrs just a little, and all those jars add up. Leaving the door ajar. I'm very, very tired. 02:25:10 right. There's the functional aspect of typography. That's why calligraphic typefaces usually are not good for large volumes of text 02:25:15 Data, SLEEP 02:25:21 even though they're visually appealing. 02:25:33 CakeProphet: yes 02:25:39 i thought you hated typography :) 02:25:49 doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. :) 02:25:58 and hate is too strong. I don't hate fields of study. 02:26:18 I just personally would not devote serious amounts of time to it. 02:28:09 Interests are a bit arbitrary. 02:28:26 true. I like fucking cows, for instance. 02:28:53 I suppose if I could save the world with typography I would devote some time to it 02:29:06 maybe a world peace treaty that's so well set, no one could possibly refuse. 02:29:07 You can save the world by fucking cows? 02:29:24 no, the saving-the-world condition is only valid for typography 02:29:27 not for interests in general. 02:29:43 Meanwhile: 02:29:44 04:52:54 fizzie: i like cows 02:29:45 alise: dr. rutherford ( middlesex, brentford) rose to move as an amendment, that the nation ought to be fnord had a great battle which arrested the armies of france or austria. if his happiness coincides with the desires, of any state in the presence of dost mahomed. then came a notification that dost mahomed would not make his appearance there. in the garrets was his library, a large and growing party in the nation; and for th 02:30:28 .... 02:30:35 fungot astounds me with each sentence. 02:30:36 CakeProphet: froissart, character of the scotch universities. war with china, the. 02:31:06 ^style 02:31:06 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube 02:31:11 ^style irc 02:31:11 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 02:31:13 fungot: duck butts 02:31:13 alise: cool. does anyone know of any way to connect 02:31:15 It basically func- 02:31:15 tions like a trapdoor ten seconds forwards in time. Nothing can come back the 02:31:15 other way – that would result in an ešect preceding a cause, which would cause the 02:31:15 1920 CHAPTER 7. THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD 02:31:15 universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences. 02:31:26 Sgeo: That copied badly, but yes? 02:31:38 the - 02:31:43 Also, I like that line 02:31:48 I already quoted the universe-ceasing-to-exist part ;P 02:32:04 Oh, you don't have the new version with the em dashes, I see. 02:32:21 Sgeo: However, I realised that what I said isn't quite true. 02:32:29 - is correct when surrounded by spaces. 02:32:34 It should be -- when speech is being cut off or resumed. 02:32:34 truth is overrated. 02:32:38 Here, I will upload the newest PDF for you. 02:32:47 Meh 02:32:58 alise: are you getting free labor out of Sgeo? o_o I find this amazing. 02:33:05 Sgeo: You sure do appreciate my work. 02:33:13 CakeProphet: No, I did it all myself instead. But yes: credit him and he'll do anything. 02:33:22 It's like currency, but FREE! 02:33:25 Sgeo: http://filebin.ca/jvtunb/ed.pdf 02:33:41 Don't wanna lost my place :( 02:33:56 Sgeo: if you win the Nobel Prize for me I'll credit you. 02:34:03 *a 02:34:23 Sgeo: Note the page number. 02:34:37 though it would be interesting if there was only one nobel prize... like a wrestling championship belt. 02:34:54 Every year the champion had to out-academic the contestor. 02:37:37 alise: if you can devise a typeface that is composed of fractals then I will be intrigued. 02:37:59 CakeProphet: That's not hard. 02:38:17 Just find some fractals that look like letters; I'm sure there's some sufficiently generic meta-fractal you could supply parameters to to get that. 02:38:23 Even just warping an existing fractal. 02:38:24 Meh. 02:38:26 alise: well neither am I, thanks to your mom. :) 02:38:42 BAM 02:44:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:51:39 "there's already a design for replacement red blood cells that are so much more efficient that if you replaced your red blood cells with them, you could hold your breath for four hours. We just can't build them. Yet." 02:56:33 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:31 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:02:01 Sgeo: source? 03:02:44 http://digitalkingdom.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=My+Views+On+The+Future 03:05:25 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 03:06:52 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:10:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:11:17 Now I wrote PipeTeX, I want you to please see this program http://sprunge.us/USOE 03:24:21 And if you have any suggestions 03:24:45 (It might be difficult to figure out without a printout) 03:33:21 Do you want my character to eat your arm, and then fix it, and then pay you back double (because east pays/receives double)? 03:34:00 Or would you rather learn to stand on the ceiling in a different language? 03:34:17 * alise reads 03:34:42 zzo38: I think that you are crazy. 03:34:58 However, I am in awe. I think. 03:35:05 alise: Perhaps I am crazy, but is that sufficiently relevent? 03:35:18 Wrt that paste, yes. 03:35:19 :D 03:35:46 alise: OK. 03:36:18 Do you have any suggestions or anything like that, having to do with the program? 03:36:45 Not really, I'm afraid. 03:39:50 Windows has named pipes? 03:40:00 Some people might say Don Knuth is also a bit crazy, and perhaps it is? 03:40:19 zzo38, I don't think a single person in this room is _sane_, so.. 03:40:28 Sgeo: Yes, Windows has named pipes, but you have to use the system call CreateNamedPipe and ConnectNamedPipe it is a server/client program. 03:40:36 Dust Jacket Hardcover: A book bound in navy blue linen with a full-color dust jacket. 03:40:37 case Casewrap Hardcover: Full-color, glossy cover; no dust jacket. 03:40:38 Hm. 03:41:29 Sgeo: But they are all in a directory called \\.\pipe or in \Device\NamedPipe in the NT object manager. (If you have the "ddd" program I wrote, you can make a list of named pipes by typing "ddd z: \Device\NamedPipe" and then "dir z:") 03:41:44 * Sgeo barely knows what a named pipe is 03:41:58 Actually, why not use regular pipes for this? 03:42:29 Sgeo: Because it has to go on both sides 03:42:34 pikhq: ping 03:44:05 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 is an Order of the Stick fan 03:44:22 Sgeo: No. 03:49:01 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:49:17 (Do you think this program is understandable better with a printout?) 03:49:26 anyone know if its possible to install linux onto a partition without using a CD? 03:50:39 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:50:58 augur: Probably it is possibly in some way? 03:51:02 augur: Sure, there are USB installs. 03:51:11 augur: Plus if you have Windows, there are installs you can do that boot from Windows. 03:51:44 aha hm 03:52:29 WTF 03:52:32 WTF WTF WTF 03:52:39 I can't believe I didn't notice until just now 03:52:55 Pharo uses, for its default font for code, a non-monospaced font 03:52:59 Who DOES that? 03:53:23 What is Pharo? 03:53:23 * Sgeo wonders how much that subconsiously elicited some opinion about Smalltalk 03:53:33 zzo38, a .. Smalltalk thingy. A fork of Squeak 03:59:28 Do you like to learn about Forth programming? 04:00:32 In Forth, you can lets say, to define conditions. The IF must jump to the corresponding THEN if the condition is not true, but IF is read first, so we must put a mark in there. We can make a helping word: : ORIG HERE 0 , ; 04:00:52 Now: : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; 04:03:01 pikhq: I found out the Horror behind Memoir. 04:03:02 To do ELSE it will be the IF jumps to ELSE if false, but ELSE jumps to THEN regardless. Since the jumps will be in the switched around order ( [IF [ELSE] THEN] ) we can do it like: : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ; 04:03:11 Sgeo: Why do you need a monospaced font for code? 04:03:19 alise: What is the Horror behind Memoir? 04:03:36 zzo38: It won't automatically resize the page layout if you change the dimensions! Aaagh! 04:03:39 alise, ... it's what everyone's used to. I guess it makes more sense for Python than anything else 04:04:02 Sgeo: ... Why Python?! 04:04:07 Non-monospaced fonts are better for prettyprinted programs, such as web program. 04:04:10 Also, /nobody/ is used to Smalltalk. 04:04:25 For loops, we need BEGIN ... AGAIN and BEGIN ... UNTIL and BEGIN ... WHILE ... REPEAT 04:04:51 I think Smalltalk being the first language I've seen non-monospaced code in made me have an artificially high opinion of it 04:04:52 The beginning of a loop does nothing, it is just a marker for the repeat part to jump back to, thus: : BEGIN` HER ; 04:04:59 : BEGIN` HERE ; 04:05:39 The AGAIN just jumps back: : AGAIN` GOTO` , ; 04:06:29 For UNTIL it is like AGAIN but we repeat until the condition is true, that is, repeat if the condition is false: : UNTIL` 0=GOTO` , ; 04:06:47 WHILE is just like IF: : WHILE` IF` ; 04:07:40 REPEAT at the end of a BEGIN ... WHILE loop is just repeat back to the beginning (unconditionally), but again the IF blocks are in backward order, thus: : REPEAT` SWAP AGAIN` THEN` ; 04:07:44 See? Forth is so simple. 04:07:57 What is your opinion? 04:08:09 Also, non-monospacing makes it harder to see . and : 04:09:00 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:09:05 Sgeo: Perhaps if you want non-monospacing you can also prettyprint it like Enhanced CWEB does for C programs. (For Smalltalk, you would have to do it differently, though) 04:10:35 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:12:16 "Call me when this test fails, I want your machine" 04:14:53 Sgeo: What test do you mean? 04:15:04 sz := 1024*1024*1024*1024. 04:15:04 self should:[Array new: sz] raise: OutOfMemory. 04:23:36 Latest version of Ed stories: http://filebin.ca/mjced/ed.pdf 04:24:07 * Sgeo should eat something soonish 04:25:30 Sgeo: Eat your arm and then make a spell to fix it? (O no, you are not that kind of monster in D&D) 04:26:56 Ouch, on page 64: "He'd" that looks like "Hed" with a ' on top. 04:26:58 Needs more spacing. 04:28:23 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 04:35:23 alise: I need to add some more spacing between fucks of your mother. 04:35:30 it's getting kind of ridiculous 04:35:35 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 04:35:57 CakeProphet is writing this WHILE having sex with your mother, y'know. 04:36:08 But it's like the fourth time today, so it's painful ... and spongy. 04:37:03 nah I just inject meth directly into my penis 04:37:07 so that I never orgasm. 04:37:29 ...so painful, yes. But not spongy. 04:37:55 http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf 04:38:21 The @@@o command (look up "Command o" in the index) can be used to measure the minimum width that a paragraph can fit into. 04:38:58 (Which is something that I believe TeX does not have built in, and that there is no way to do it using the built-in commands) 04:39:11 in the context of that command, I am a paragraph and your mom is what I'm fitting into. 04:39:44 CakeProphet: Do you mean *my* mom? I don't think so. 04:39:56 well 04:40:07 I am referring to the Platonic ideal "your mom" 04:40:13 the essence of the idea. 04:40:17 CakeProphet: O, OK. 04:40:20 :) 04:40:32 the Platonic ideal your mom just happens to be a milf. 04:41:01 If you are talking about Platonic ideals about "your mom" I suppose we do not have to worry about it 04:45:53 Do you know what kind of creature my D&D character is and what kind of spell they have that nobody else would ever think of using? 04:46:51 Ok, how many things did Smalltalk invent o.O 04:47:15 Windowed GUIs, IDEs, and unit testing?!?!? 04:47:51 Sgeo: Did it? Anything else? 04:48:18 [I think Windowed GUIs might be overly broad] 04:48:25 Um, OOP, obviously 04:49:39 Sgeo: Object-oriented programming, as well as various other things that some people have heard of and other things that nobody has every heard of, has been done a lot in Forth, too, they are nothing new, Forth already can do all of these things and more, you just to implement them using simple codes like the examples I posted above (in this IRC) 04:51:40 (Some of the documentation of PipeTeX could be improved a bit, I might do so in the next version, as well as adding additional commands) 04:58:50 I wish my computer was fast enough to do HD. 04:59:00 Disconnecting in 4min 04:59:02 zzo38: ForthTeX 04:59:32 alise: That is idea! 05:00:48 {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\ForthTeX\def 05:01:07 {Introduction to the \ForthTeX manual}\mychapterthing 05:01:40 alise: You mean like a stack based where each {} is an entry on the stack? 05:01:54 {...} is basically a quoting command 05:02:02 \foo precedes commands, non-commands are "printed" basically 05:02:16 Perhaps then you also need instead of \ForthTeX put a different kind of symbol meaning by name instead of by value? 05:02:19 so we can pretend that \sf is like a forth word that "reads a bunch of text" and sets it in sans-serif, up to the next { or \ 05:02:30 zzo38: you're probably right 05:02:31 unless you do 05:02:33 alise: O, OK. 05:02:37 {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\def\ForthTeX 05:02:42 which would be more like Forth 05:02:43 or even 05:02:53 \def\ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end 05:02:58 which is exactly like forth 05:03:05 alise: Yes, it is more like how Forth does it 05:03:08 \: \ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \; % you see where I'm going with this 05:03:14 Actually, that would be pretty darn cool... 05:03:26 Although, in Forth you can change things around to work in many different ways 05:05:18 In that last example, { and } would be commands to enter and exit a group to save information, so that \sf switches the font of the current group, and } put thing from the group back how it was before, you could have it like a stack, and then copy information alloted at the HERE mark and move it ahead, so that then you move it back afterward, that is one way. 05:05:46 Yes. 05:05:48 \begin 05:05:48 Hello, world! 05:05:48 \n\@ \1 \+ \n\! 05:05:48 \n \10 \< \until 05:06:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:06:02 Presumably \[integer] would just push [integer]. 05:06:20 Actually the louf typesetting system is slightly similar to this. Not really, though; it's more functional than stack. 05:06:58 alise: Yes, that would be how it does. And then \begin and \until inside of a definition like Forth, are just immediate words to keep track of the addresses for jumping back to, and so on 05:07:43 Yeah. 05:07:46 But you would need \n\@ \10 \< 05:07:57 (Otherwise you are comparing it with the address of \n) 05:08:16 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 05:08:47 I think TeX is a pretty good typesetting system, however there are some weaknesses which is why I wrote PipeTeX. 05:09:42 (Although, there are other ways as well, such as e-TeX, EncTeX, MLTeX, LuaTeX, XeTeX, LaTeX, and so on) 05:09:57 But I wrote PipeTeX instead. 05:10:38 So that you can use it even with later verions of TeX, possibly, too. 05:10:41 Your TeX will almost certainly include e-TeX. 05:11:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:11:45 alise: You might be right about that. Still, I don't know about what things e-TeX actually does. 05:12:14 But with PipeTeX, I can make a paragraph box with the minimum width that it will fit, if I want to. 05:12:49 -!- deathmoniac has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:13:54 e-TeX just tweaks some stuff and adds some built-in commands. 05:14:03 You're probably using it without realising it 05:14:04 *it. 05:15:14 5am 05:15:16 gotta sleep smetime 05:15:17 *sometime 05:17:03 why the fuck wont usb-creator-gtk use a goddamn minimal iso >_< 05:18:07 * pikhq returneth 05:21:17 augur: use unetbootin 05:21:24 trust me, it's a lot more pleasant 05:22:10 God it's nice having things to *go* to. 05:30:07 make me sleep ghost of sgeo 05:30:26 alise: NETE 05:30:35 wat 05:30:39 SLEEP 05:34:37 pikhq: but- 05:34:40 it's only /just/ brightened 05:35:04 well okay but 05:35:07 i leave you with this 05:35:08 http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf 05:35:28 pikhq: you will possibly enjoy the viewing of this memoir-typesetting of a sam hughes story. 05:35:41 Oooh, ed. 05:35:49 yeppers 05:35:53 typeset the nicest i can 05:35:57 comments on a postcard or to the logs 05:36:00 bye! 05:36:03 Bye. 05:36:05 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:36:08 Nicely done. 05:39:57 -!- cal153 has joined. 05:44:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:48:04 -!- augur has joined. 05:54:12 aww bye alise :( 05:55:48 MUST ... WRITE ... MICROCOSM ... VFS ... 05:56:03 what? 05:56:39 * pikhq gives Gregor a time injection 05:56:56 augur: http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/ 05:57:04 An insane project that AnMaster and pikhq forced me to start. 05:57:18 a time injection sounds like something from dr who 05:57:20 I started it under the condition that I wouldn't have to do this shit. 05:57:21 We like insanity. 05:57:22 :P 05:57:39 Gregor: i dont get it 05:57:41 but whatever 05:57:43 it doesnt matter 05:57:43 :D 05:57:54 I'm a bit busy trying to prevent myself from becoming a complete hikikomori ATM, so. :P 05:59:00 There are other ways to combine Forth with TeX, as well. One idea is, add a \forth command to TeX, which means switch into Forth mode (TeX's eyes no longer see the file), and it is processed by Forth, until Forth executes a [TEX] command to switch back. It would normally be a outer command, so things like \def\xyz{\forth 1 3 + . [TEX]} will just make \xyz to expand as "1 3 + . [TEX]" and then switch to Forth mode the next time TeX's eyes would 06:01:43 And then have ASSIGN-GULLET ASSIGN-STOMACH ASSIGN-INTESTINES to define TeX control sequences with functions of Forth codes assigned to them to work in that part of the processing 06:02:46 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:03:16 And then TEX-HOOK to hook various parts of the processing of TeX 06:07:34 Perhaps you could include a file of Forth codes by typing \expandafter\forth\input 06:26:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:18 -!- augur has joined. 06:48:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:07:10 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:13:13 -!- augur has joined. 07:14:31 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:15:37 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:19:53 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:22:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:23:01 -!- augur has joined. 07:35:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:54:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:54:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 07:54:52 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 07:55:07 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 07:58:27 -!- augur has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:53:25 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:04:52 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:09:45 -!- cal153 has joined. 09:14:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:52:32 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:53:05 -!- dbc has joined. 09:59:22 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:59:27 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 10:02:02 -!- ronnie has joined. 10:05:15 -!- augur has joined. 10:05:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:05:59 -!- augur has joined. 10:06:05 -!- ronnie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:10:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:20:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:20:25 -!- augur has joined. 10:28:32 -!- tombom has joined. 10:42:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:45:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:53:38 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 10:58:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:00:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:01:47 CakeProphet! 11:12:18 ... 11:22:07 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 11:25:20 Well, where did you leave it? 11:27:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 11:30:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:47:33 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:12:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost marble). 12:13:28 -!- AnMaster has joined. 12:31:55 -!- Flonk has joined. 12:32:10 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 12:33:07 * Phantom_Hoover notes that it would take over 333 days to read all of Schlock Mercenary on Archive Binge's fastest setting. 12:52:42 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:01:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:02:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 13:05:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:08:07 fungot 13:08:08 Phantom_Hoover: maybe one could name kim deal, too. 13:08:16 ^style 13:08:16 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 13:08:27 ^style discworld 13:08:27 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 13:08:29 fungot 13:08:29 Phantom_Hoover: ' most people do,' said 13:14:07 fungot: Said who? 13:14:08 fizzie: there was a short man in a suit of armour. there was a pulse there, but that's only because he wants to show he's willing. very willing lad, brutha." 13:20:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 13:23:03 -!- alise has joined. 14:18:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:55:52 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 15:04:02 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 15:16:36 on the subject of urgency 15:24:05 pikhq: So, memoir really sucks in one way. 15:28:22 Memoir? 15:33:17 The only LaTeX document class that matters. 15:33:36 It does books, articles, memos, notes, poetry, ... 15:34:16 Its manual is a veritable tome of knowledge; a complete book with beautiful little miniatures of various page layouts and the corresponding code, and such. It contains much history about typography and information on why you might want to do things certain ways, but also includes all the information you need to completely change the entire page layout, just using memoir's commands. 15:34:25 It's also backwards-compatible with the article class and probably others. 15:35:05 The only thing that sucks about it is that if you use a non-standard paper size, I don't think it has a way to automatically "scale" the proportions of a built-in page layout for a similar size, down to fit your page. 15:35:14 So you have to specify all the values manually, which is... not easy if you're not good at that. 15:44:25 Quadrescence: \enlargethispage{3\baselineskip} % is this considered okay if i have e.g. an epilogue which i want to fit on one page rather than having a few dangling lines on the next page? 15:45:05 alise: Wellllllll it's really a hack and not very nice to do that but I guess you could get away with it 15:45:13 Especially if you don't want to solve it this second 15:45:30 Quadrescence: can't really be solved; the only thing i could do is make the "chapter" heading appear higher on the page 15:45:35 and I'm not certain how to do that with memoir 15:45:46 alise: \usepackage{fullpage} :)))))))) 15:45:54 \usepackage{savetrees} 15:46:03 I've already committed such a sin once, anyway: 15:46:10 \enlargethispage{2\baselineskip} 15:46:10 \enlargethispage{2\parskip} 15:46:10 \pbreak 15:46:27 dear lord just use the above packages you will not be disappointed 15:46:27 To make the \pbreak (basically a centred \asterism with some space around it) fit on the end of the page, rather than the beginning of the next page. 15:46:32 Quadrescence: nothx 15:46:34 use *one of the above packages 15:46:35 hahahaha 15:46:37 why not???? 15:46:45 y do u h8 on savetrees 15:46:47 do you not like trees 15:46:54 i hate trees and i like whitespace :) 15:47:04 "The goal of the savetrees package is to pack as much text as possible onto each page 15:47:04 A 15:47:05 of a L TEX document. Admittedly, this makes the document far less attractive." 15:47:06 even they admit it! 15:47:24 "• At most two authors are listed. The remainder are replaced by “et al.”" 15:47:25 see, that's EVIL! 15:47:27 ;D 15:47:34 haha 15:47:45 wow, savetrees is like a tree nazi 15:47:47 \usepackage{fullpage} 15:47:52 "DECREASE! EVERYTHING!" 15:48:11 Quadrescence: but dammit, I like my whitespace :) 15:48:21 It just uses a full page 15:48:25 it doesn't do other things 15:48:25 Quadrescence: anyway i'm not fucking greatly with layout until I figure out how to get memoir working with a smaller size 15:48:30 \usepackage[oneletterperpage]{killallthestupidtrees} 15:48:41 yeah, but memoir purposefully pushes the chapter headings down 15:48:45 fizzie: hahaha 15:48:48 for aesthetic reasons 15:48:54 alise: I'm aware 15:49:04 alise: How about you just ignore it for now 15:49:05 Quadrescence: you got any idea how to give memoir a custom paper size and give it one of its default layouts and tell it "go scale"? 15:49:13 No 15:49:15 i'm too scared to define my own values, the default ones are fine 15:49:16 You don't want to do that 15:49:17 Quadrescence: dammit 15:49:20 Quadrescence: i do though :) 15:49:24 No you don't 15:49:29 If you're going to care about aesthetics 15:49:45 I care about aesthetics; I'm just not very good at specifying arbitrary values like that. 15:49:56 They aren't arbitrary 15:49:56 what trim paper size does The Quadrescence Press use? :P 15:50:08 they're arbitrary to me, though; i.e. i just see a number box 15:50:15 I know they are to you 15:50:17 But they aren't 15:50:35 Yes, of course, I agree. 15:50:36 alise: finish your document in its entirety then worry about this stuff 15:50:41 Quadrescence: it is finished 15:50:49 Oh okay, do you want to send it to me 15:50:56 no :D 15:50:57 do you want me to screw with it 15:51:04 I c. 15:51:15 wellll okay but I reserve the right to then screw with it again completely 15:51:38 it's just yet another typesetting of someone else's work because I am ~not cool enough to write~ 15:51:46 * alise tars it up 15:51:50 what 15:52:06 I would tell you exactly what to do, it's just hard for "visual things" 15:52:11 like visual basic 15:52:22 heh 15:52:46 Quadrescence: do you have the Minion Pro package installed? 15:52:57 Yeah 15:53:04 great 15:53:09 http://filebin.ca/wohxwx/ed.tar 15:53:12 Oh god you're using minion 15:53:18 "pdflatex ed.tex", etc. 15:53:21 Quadrescence: is that a bad thing? :D 15:53:28 yes it is 15:53:33 :(( 15:53:37 i've been playing with other typefaces for it 15:53:47 minion is just my fallback so I don't have to look at computer modern when tweaking stuff 15:53:54 but what's wrong with minion? 15:54:13 What's wrong with CM? 15:54:33 well, it's not exactly ideal for long prose, like all didone/modern typefaces imo 15:54:45 more to the point, what's wrong with minion? 15:55:27 Nothing is ``wrong'' with it, I just don't really like when people use it. I mean, it's a pretty OK typeface, maybe it's that Wolfram Research uses it 15:56:01 oh, I wasn't aware that Wolfram used it. 15:56:13 Also, the kerning of some characters is weird 15:56:18 Quadrescence: otoh, bringhurst uses it 15:56:35 I'm sure a lot of people do because it makes them Hip and Different 15:56:41 actually, kerning is pissing me off right now; TeX is stupid enough that microtype suffers, because you can't disable kerning selectively properly 15:56:47 (only when it's needed and shit) 15:57:11 Minion makes you Hip and Different? gee, I really don't hang out in the kind of places where I'd find that kind of information :P 15:57:14 alise: did you try \usepackage[bitstream]{mathdesign} 15:57:20 i think that's the package 15:57:28 i dislike bitstream fonts 15:57:49 TeX Gyre Schola or whatever they're calling it these days -- the New Century Schoolbook-based one -- worked okay 15:58:24 You dislike the fonts in the package I suggested? 15:58:57 Presumably [bitstream] is the Bitstream Vera fonts? 15:59:06 No, definitely not 15:59:11 I haven't actually got mathdesign installed, it seems; I'll rectify that. 15:59:14 Bitstream Vera is not my cup of tea 15:59:26 Quadrescence: Huh; I wonder which then. 15:59:39 Bitstream don't have any other Free with a capital E fonts afaik. 15:59:55 oh 15:59:58 ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$ aptitude search mathdesign 15:59:58 ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$ 16:00:00 ffffffff 16:00:07 \usepacakge[charter]{mathdesign} 16:00:11 ah bitstream charter 16:00:32 "Bitstream Charter is a typeface optimized for printing on the low-resolution 300 dpi laser printers of the 1980s." xP 16:00:47 blurgh; I need to isntall mathdesign now 16:00:57 Well, I can think of alternatives 16:00:58 or, no, wait 16:01:02 just use the charter package 16:01:33 Quadrescence: unacceptable; doesn't have Greek 16:01:39 wrong 16:01:40 it does 16:01:48 ERROR: I can't find file `grmn1200'. -- oh, do I need to delete the .aux crap? 16:01:53 texlive-fonts-extra in ubuntu has mathdesign.sty. 16:02:09 I use Greek for exactly one letter, heh: 16:02:15 "I was expecting orange light to fall across us as 16:02:15 we arrived in the {\greektext e}Eri system at a relative speed small 16:02:15 enough to make it appear that we were at a standstill." 16:02:35 Quadrescence: well, it certainly isn't telling me it has greek 16:02:40 even after rming the aux files 16:03:18 Well remove the \greekletter crap right now then which is probably specific to the minion package anyway 16:04:02 also it compiled for me with mathdesign 16:04:03 Quadrescence: no it is not 16:04:06 it is the babel package 16:04:07 except for textssc 16:04:14 which is the standard way to do these things ... 16:04:21 or maybe scc, i don't remember 16:04:43 you don't now of babel, really? 16:04:55 I know of babel, I just don't typeset greek 16:05:02 xP 16:06:27 Quadrescence: what latex font do you think is the most similar to georgia? 16:06:32 that's the original typeface the text was set in 16:07:02 um charter is kind of close 16:07:52 fouriernc? 16:08:10 I swear: none of these have Greek. 16:08:21 Maybe math-mode Greek, but not actual-text Greek. 16:08:47 TeX Gyre Schola is better than New Century Schoolbook so tgschola > fouriernc 16:09:01 and it's a pretty close match, Georgia is just ... plumper and less serify. Damn, I need to learn the terminology. 16:09:53 Why don't you just use Georgia with xelatex? 16:10:27 georgia is designed for screen and, I dunno, I've never liked XeLaTeX much 16:10:46 Did you try \usepackage{kerkis}? 16:11:07 ERROR: LaTeX Error: File `kerkis.sty' not found. 16:11:18 time to find what texlive package it's in; sigh 16:11:25 I'll upload the pdf 16:11:29 thanks 16:11:30 so you can look before you go check it out 16:11:36 s/textssc/textsc/ btw if not using minion 16:12:16 ah, it's based on Bookman? skeptical, but ok 16:12:26 TeX Gyre Bonum is probably better 16:12:30 as far as Bookmans go 16:12:31 but I'll see 16:12:38 http://www.file-pasta.com/file/0/ed.pdf 16:13:24 that capital E is /freaky/ 16:13:43 Haha quit looking at the giant E at the start 16:13:48 :D 16:13:53 Quadrescence: i'm going to try xelatex just to see 16:15:49 Quadrescence: Wow, \LaTeX looks fucked up in Georgia. The a is lowercase. 16:15:58 haha 16:16:14 Well, XeLaTeX doesn't do \textsc properly, it seems; actually, wait ... does Georgia even have small caps? 16:16:25 probably not who knows 16:17:11 Linux Libertine O looks nice ... 16:17:21 ...but nothing like Georgia :P 16:17:25 pah 16:17:27 i nearly nearly give up 16:17:49 i love how many badnesses it complains about 16:17:50 it's so bad. 16:19:06 Quadrescence: Maybe I'll just convert it to lout and become a hermit and bang sticks and rocks together to make runes. 16:19:17 hahaha 16:19:18 do it 16:19:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:20:03 I wonder if TeX Gyre Pagella has less awful quote marks than URW Palatino. 16:22:33 Hehe, LuaTeX can't even load microtype. 16:22:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:23:20 Quadrescence: wait, there's an opentype to t1 converter, isn't there? 16:23:35 maybe it only works for minion 16:23:47 If you're thinking about converting georgia to something usable with latex 16:23:51 stop thinking 16:24:06 base=$(basename "$font" .otf) 16:24:06 cfftot1 "$font" "pfb/$base.pfb" 16:24:06 t1dotlessj "pfb/$base.pfb" "pfb/${base}LCDFJ.pfb" 16:24:14 Quadrescence: why :D microtype support and the like? 16:24:39 minion could only be converted because someone spent a lot of time tweaking things, preparing fontinst files, and making a .sty file 16:24:46 yeah 16:24:56 i was only musing 16:25:14 maybe i should just email the author and ask him what he'd like it set in. 16:28:09 or just forget about it and set his new novel but i'd have to read it first 16:28:12 or just give up on typesetting 16:28:14 and become a hermit 16:28:16 and sleep forever 16:28:20 yeah. let's go with that one 16:35:25 brb: rebooting into windows to see if it can handle HD 16:35:46 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:38:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:46:30 -!- derdon has joined. 17:08:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:53:42 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:10:52 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:17:06 -!- SimonRC has joined. 18:21:35 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 18:25:39 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:29:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:58:24 -!- alise has joined. 18:58:54 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 18:59:15 -!- alise has joined. 18:59:50 Well, Windows can decode a "900p" Blu-Ray rip and have it almost synched up with the audio. 19:00:00 I conclude that Linux audio still suuuuuuuuuuucks shiiiiiit 19:00:16 I can only conclude that good God Ubuntu sucks at audio. 19:00:35 I use the *default settings* for ALSA and it just plain works. 19:00:35 On a more positive note, thx coppro for making me decide to, uh, obtain Stargate Universe. 19:00:46 If Air pts. 1 and 2 are anything to go by it's gonna be good. 19:01:29 Unfortunately the Blu-Ray rip only has up to episode 10; apparently the season was released in two halves, both the price of a regular season (!) on Blu-Ray. So that sucks; I can't find the second half in such quality. 19:02:01 -!- calamari has joined. 19:02:48 alise: SyFy tends to air seasons in two parts. 19:02:59 The second part of the season only finished a few weeks ago. 19:02:59 Mm. 19:03:25 Oh, so that thing I saw on Sky marked as the "finale" was actually the finale of the first half? Interesting. 19:03:34 The two releases are marked "1.0" and "1.5", which is a bit strange, but there you go. 19:03:50 Alright then; now if only the 1080p 37" TV was in /here/. And I had a machine that can decode it with _perfect_ AV sync. 19:03:55 Yup, that's a very SCI-FI CHANNEL (not "SyFy" bleh) thing to do. 19:04:06 I pronounce Syfy as "Siffy" to protest the rename. 19:04:18 Love it. 19:04:19 "...new, to Sci-Fi." "You mean 'Siffy'." 19:04:44 Or "siffih". So it's awkward to pronounce. 19:04:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:05:51 pikhq: Apparently "1.5" was released in July. 19:05:54 So... 19:06:00 A few few weeks ago. 19:06:29 Should be able to find HD TV dumps; not a Blu-Ray rip yet. 19:06:39 In Blu-Ray "Region B" (??) the full-season Blu-Ray came out in July too. Region A has to wait until 2011, but they got 1.0 and 1.5, while region B didn't. 19:07:05 My anal file-naming scheme has come under attack by the evil creators of Stargate Universe. 19:07:05 hm, where is oerjan when you need him 19:07:21 "1.11.2 ???.mkv" (Yes, that is an en-dash.) 19:07:35 It's two separate episodes, "Air (Part 1)" and "Air (Part 2)", but aired as one continuous one. 19:07:40 Usually, I would just title it "Air". 19:07:48 But there's a part 3 which was aired /after/ these. 19:07:53 alise, yeah, for me the plain alsa with no pulseaudio just works. Even on computers with stuff like Intel HDA instead of my sb live card 19:08:02 pulseaudio is what causes issues IME 19:08:03 AnMaster: ALSA had the AV sync problems just as badly. 19:08:12 I'm going to try OSSv4, then hang myself. 19:08:24 alise, that I never had... Weird latency issues I guess 19:08:41 btw, I ate some fun food today. 19:09:18 hissing cockroaches? 19:09:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punsch-roll <-- this very Swedish pastry is as noted in the article called "vacuum cleaner" here. Well, they had an extra long version at a café I visited today... Guess what they called it? 19:09:35 "Fun"; that is some definition of fun, "hissing cockroaches". 19:09:45 AnMaster: Black hole? 19:09:47 central vacuum cleaner 19:09:53 http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/central_vacuum_cleaner.jpg 19:09:57 took that with phone camera 19:10:00 alise: Clearly Ubuntu managed to fucking break ALSA. 19:10:04 AnMaster: That's not... hilarious. 19:10:07 yes doggy bag next to it. It was a bit too large. 19:10:14 alise, I said fun, not hilarious 19:10:23 pikhq: You know, I don't think the _entire_ blame lies on Ubuntu's shoulders. 19:10:30 alise, plus, Swedish humour. It exists but is incompatible with you. 19:10:37 They may be slightly incompetent, but you gotta admit, Linux audio isn't known to be very worky. 19:10:49 yeah 19:10:58 alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*. 19:11:06 like getting pulseaudio and timidity to work together 19:11:18 alise: I only ever had problems when pulse came out 19:11:19 coppro: Here, YOU'RE the Stargate expert (Sgeo doesn't count), YOU name my file. (This is the most important thing.) 19:11:24 pikhq: Good hardware. Good luck. 19:11:25 On Linux 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6. OSS, pre-in-kernel ALSA, 2.6 ALSA. 19:11:27 anyway, I can strongly recommend that café for anyone in Sweden that happens to pass by the town of Vara (located along E20 between Göteborg and Stockholm). 19:11:36 And I've used it on a *lot* of hardware. 19:11:41 anot sure what was so wrong with oss or alsa 19:11:50 calamari: nothing at all. 19:11:53 Well, plenty. 19:11:56 alise: call that one Vacuum and the other one Air :P 19:11:59 Just nothing that could be fixed with a new sound server above them. 19:11:59 I just haven't used any of the freaking bizarre audio abstraction layers... 19:12:09 coppro: wat xD 19:12:14 Well, unless you count arts, which KDE 3 demanded. 19:12:23 alise: the first parts are more about a lack of air :P 19:12:25 I think I'll go with "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)", but I'll FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. 19:12:43 coppro: Gee, just go and spoil it; I was expecting them to suffocate and the rest of the series just to be footage of dead people. 19:13:01 Or colonise the planet and live peacefully with a few minor incidents, as they try to come to terms with their loneliness. 19:13:19 SGU actually has significant attrition :) 19:13:55 Remind me not to talk to you about anything I haven't finished watching/reading/etc. yet. :) 19:14:01 SPOILERS: Destiny's destination is an alternate earth, where they will pick up more people and then leave again 19:14:14 Please tell me you /are/ joking. 19:14:19 alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*. <-- the only issues I had so far has been with pulseaudio or jack. The latter is mostly my own fault for even trying to use that. Of course it works very well once it's set up. But the problem is that, setting it up. 19:14:30 alise: maybe 19:14:37 with pulseaudio.... well I wouldn't know where to start with describing the problems 19:14:39 coppro: I hate you, because now I have to look it up. 19:14:44 alise: rofl 19:14:50 I was kidding 19:14:57 That's from a book 19:14:58 coppro: Hyperventilation over! 19:15:03 (not a SG book) 19:15:15 Adding abstraction servers to Linux audio is an absolutely retarded idea. 19:15:19 Why do people love doing it? 19:15:40 because they can't think of any other ideas that sound so good but are really so bad 19:15:53 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:15:54 \expandafter\forth\input 19:15:56 can't work 19:16:22 Would it kill them to just make the audio interface *work well*? 19:16:28 pikhq, yeah... 19:16:49 Elaborate justification for "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)": En-dash to separate range is the Right Way to do things; series number must be included since it sometimes differs e.g. Voyager's "Unimatrix Zero"; the episodes are billed (Part N) for N in 1,2,3; there are two parts, and we should not insert "and" because it is more metasyntactic punctuation than actually part of the title. 19:16:50 pikhq, just use dmix in case of lack of hardware mixing (which is the case for most hardware these days) 19:17:01 Just use OSSv4. 19:17:10 Oh snap, no, that would actually *work!* 19:17:22 Even ALSA, which *is* the audio interface for most Linux systems, has trouble with this... 19:17:25 zzo38: You're really writing ForthTeX? 19:17:36 pikhq: Tried OSSv4? You'll like it. 19:17:38 Why the HELL should you need a user library to just make the freaking audio interface work at all? 19:17:39 Did I mention OSSv4? 19:17:41 alise, well, it's more work, and it would probably not work out of box, unless it provides alsa compatible APIs 19:17:49 AnMaster: It does. 19:17:53 AnMaster: There's nothing that does not support OSS. 19:17:55 ah well. Still more work 19:18:00 AnMaster: In fact, you can also make libalsa /output to OSS/. 19:18:03 pikhq, alsamixer? (sorry, bad joke) 19:18:11 AnMaster: Seriously. That's 100% compatibility. 19:18:14 Because OSS is the audio interface on all *other* UNIX systems. 19:18:18 hm 19:18:19 Or you can use the slightly-worse OSSv4 fake libalsa. 19:18:22 alise: No, I am not writing ForthTeX. It is just something I thought about while sleeping yesterday 19:18:25 (excepting OS X) 19:18:35 alise, anyway, for me as it happens, alsa actually works well. Both on desktop and laptop 19:18:37 alise: Tempting, but ALSA "just works" here. 19:18:47 no clue why, it's just the way it is 19:18:48 pikhq: Dude, you use Gentoo. You _have_ to break things on a regular basis. 19:18:54 Just do it. 19:18:56 :D 19:19:05 alise: Things don't break here. 19:19:08 :P 19:19:26 (okay, actually, I manage to break X every now and then.) 19:19:55 indeed, things didn't break on Gentoo. I think I had to report way more bugs under ubuntu so far than on gentoo. And I used gentoo for like 5-6 years. Ubuntu for about one 19:20:01 zzo38: Perhaps instead of {...} pushing a "formatting stack", it could instead push a code block/quotation a la Joy. Then \sf would mean "sans-serif for the rest of the 'program'", where "program" is like a scope; i.e. it'd end after you finish executing the {...}. 19:20:13 Although perhaps the pushing-a-formatting-stack would be a saner idea. 19:20:16 arch I think is lowest but I used that less on non-servers than either of the other 19:20:21 Not that ForthTeX is a sane idea in the first place. 19:20:23 But this might work: \forth ' [TEX] ASSIGN-GULLET unforth [TEX] \def\inputforth#1{\forth\input #1 \unforth} 19:20:26 so hard to tell 19:20:31 (But I don't know about this way either) 19:20:33 only like half a year on main desktop 19:20:44 zzo38: That's the boring way, though. It should be a Forth integrated into the TeX, not TeX with Forth support. 19:20:46 Somehow, Gentoo is a reasonably stable system. Something that appears to have a bleeding-edge philosophy. 19:20:54 Yes, of course it is not sane idea..... 19:21:05 alise, so yeah, gentoo's issue is actually the compile time. It _breaks_ less than other distros IME 19:21:15 AnMaster: It's Gentoo's /users/ that break it. 19:21:22 alise, yes some. I agree 19:21:37 But..... 19:21:41 WE ARE INSANITY!!!!!! 19:21:50 alise, like those with insane CFLAGS. But well... I only know one such user, and he started using sane cflags later on 19:21:56 zzo38: You could use {...} as strings that way, too. 19:21:58 Like 19:22:04 {sansserif} \fontname 19:22:06 Or something. 19:22:48 would forthtex be like luatex? Or would it use a separate syntax? Or is it something like literal forth programming? 19:23:01 I don't think such things can work unless it is entirely remade such that it is not TeX anymore 19:23:06 ForthTeX wouldn't really be TeX at all. 19:23:09 ah 19:23:14 But using \forth to switch works better in my opinion 19:23:19 In my view, "\foo" would be execute-Forth-word-foo. 19:23:26 Normal words would just be "text" typeset. 19:23:31 well, there is an issue there. If you don't pass some test suite, iirc Knuth gets angry about you using the name TeX 19:23:34 { would push a new "formatting stack" 19:23:50 so \sf would say, change the font to sans-serif 19:23:51 on the top formatting stack 19:23:52 not sure if it is a registered trademark or such, if it is, you would need to follow it 19:23:54 } would pop it 19:23:55 AnMaster: Yes, exactly, and it is also something I agree with as well, even if Knuth doesn't get angry 19:24:01 AnMaster: It's just a codename :P 19:24:08 It was more like TeX when I thought of it... 19:24:08 alise, ah right 19:24:20 \def \ForthTeX {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end 19:24:32 So \def would read a word, and get \ForthTeX back. 19:24:37 Start defining just like Forth... 19:24:57 Yes, that is like Forth, but then it wouldn't be TeX 19:24:58 Then we have the \pushfmt instruction, the \sf instruction, the "FORTH" text, the \popfmt instruction, the \TeX instruction, and we stop. 19:25:16 The "FORTH" text would be handled like numbers in Forth; "TEXT" instruction followed by the text, just like "2" -> "LITERAL 2" or whatever. 19:25:21 zzo38: Fine; FORTHSeT. 19:25:24 ForthSeT. 19:26:04 You could have a command ending with {, actually. 19:26:14 \def \boldblock {\bf \end 19:26:16 Then 19:26:20 \boldblock LOL BOLD} 19:26:28 Since { and } would just be sugar for \pushfmt and \popfmt... 19:27:59 My idea using \forth to switch, it has something like LuaTeX, but not quite, because TeX doesn't even see your Forth program, it is just switched, instead of using TeX's eyes/mouth/body you use the Forth and then it go back after, so you would define a Forth code in outer usually, and integrate it using ASSIGN-GULLET and so on 19:28:20 As well possibly as other commands such as TEX-PARSE TEX-SEND-TOKEN and so on 19:28:56 alise: Yes your way, can be called ForthSeT, it might work 19:31:58 But I never modified TeX (although I have read parts of the TeX source codes to clarify things), I wrote PipeTeX, which should be workable using any version of TeX, without having to modify each one. 19:32:25 Someone recommend me a Linux distro to toy around with that isn't Gentoo or Arch. 19:32:33 Ubuntu has officially reached my Ultimately Annoyed state. 19:32:37 (The logo for PipeTeX isn't as complicated as things like LaTeX and AMS-TeX and so on, just {Pipe\TeX}) 19:32:46 alise: Linux-From-Scratch 19:32:58 zzo38: No. :P 19:33:05 alise: Linux-From-UnScratch 19:33:09 xD 19:33:16 {\sf FORTH}\TeX: the only logo that matters! 19:37:20 Does such a thing as Linux-From-Unscratch exist? 19:37:31 No. 19:39:41 Some people say that literate programming forces you to document your program and therefore write a better code, but that isn't true at all. What it does do, however, is it makes it much easier to document your code! 19:40:22 // assign 4 to i 19:40:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:41:13 antidippenders; 19:41:23 hm, where is oerjan when you need him 19:41:42 oerjan, oh yeah. Interesting turn of events in IWC eh? 19:42:20 oerjan, it raises a lot of questions though 19:42:35 coppro: Not like that, though. Not like typing "// assign 4 to i", that is clear by the printout might be something like "i <-- 4" you can already see it assigns 4 to i 19:42:55 I was being sarcastic 19:42:56 maybe 19:42:57 like why the heck has shakespeare not given any indication of being from the past before 19:45:10 also i'm not sure i _like_ this idea of explaining things "rationally" this way, it takes away the mystery. in fact that was one of the things i didn't like about the end of the Ed stories 19:46:15 Yes, but... that's because you're you. No offence. 19:46:16 AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg 19:46:38 The word for a random, unexplained thread that holds the whole story together without any apparent justification is a "plot hole". 19:46:50 (it became serious and logical rather than crazy and whimsical) 19:47:02 fizzie, okay, on hotel wlan. Will take ages to load 19:47:05 oerjan: erm 19:47:11 it became that since Be Here Now 19:47:17 would take some pics through the window, except it is fairly boring 19:47:20 -!- tombom has joined. 19:47:22 now which one was that 19:47:24 not any grand view 19:47:28 oerjan: the /first long story/ 19:47:34 alise: Slack 19:47:38 if it wasn't serious by Be Here Now, it definitely was by Spacd 19:47:43 fizzie, wait, is that like .fi dreamhack or such? 19:47:49 AnMaster: There are _small.jpg variants, but... 19:47:50 alise: thank you for an answer that gives my memory absolutely nothing to remember it by 19:48:07 oerjan: Be Here Now -- time travelling, Kerrig mountain facility 19:48:08 But a literate programming system contains features that can be useful regardless of the amount of documentation you are including, such as the index and table of contents, and code chunks..... 19:48:19 Spacd -- whoops Epsilon Eridriani doesn't exist 19:48:21 AnMaster: I don't remember what DreamHack is; gaming or demoscene? 19:48:27 *Eridani 19:48:36 fizzie, gaming iirc 19:49:03 AnMaster: Well, this used to be a demoscene event. Nowadays it's a hybrid sort of thing. 19:49:24 fizzie, ah 19:49:37 oh well, anyhow i liked the whimsical ones best 19:49:41 In the PipeTeX codes, I don't think I need to document every section, some should be self-explanatory, and I don't need to document it as m much as some people do, but there is still some missing, which I can add in the next version 19:49:55 oerjan: ok, so let's say Spacd, since Be Here Now isn't that serious. it's lighthearted, but not the same sort of jokey story that the short stories are at the start, when setting the stage in the first two paragraphs. after that, it's serious (the raretl ivehf) 19:50:16 alise: Y'know what else would be nice? A short story collection containing of qntm.org 19:50:21 the opening stories haven't got much substance really and are really stage-setters 19:50:25 *really just stage-setters 19:50:32 Be Here Now is short compared to the others 19:50:46 so really, the Ed stories are serious for a majority of their length 19:51:06 pikhq: Eh wot? 19:51:17 Also, I can't use Slack. Actually I'm not sure what I can use: I need a recent kernel to support my Ethernet. 19:51:25 alise: All the short stories on qntm that aren't part of a story. 19:51:27 The last Ubuntu didn't support the card. 19:51:29 pikhq: In what? 19:51:34 alise: Then upgrade the kernel. 19:51:41 Typeset as a single volume? 19:51:43 zzo38: Can't do that without internet. 19:51:45 pikhq: Ah. 19:51:49 pikhq: I'd like to finish the Ed stories, first. 19:52:00 alise: Can't you do it with a DVD, or something like that? 19:52:04 pikhq: And that includes Free, Standing as an epilogue. 19:52:08 zzo38: No optical drive. 19:52:14 fizzie, okay, took some (free hand) pics 19:52:16 pikhq: The next Sam Hughes thing I'm likely to typeset is Fine Structure, but I'll have to read it first. 19:52:18 alise: Can you use USB? 19:52:26 zzo38: Yes. But at that point I get too bored. 19:52:26 fizzie, I'll see if I can do anything usable with it 19:52:37 fizzie, btw those images were not panos right? 19:52:38 05:18:04 you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems. 19:52:38 what? 19:52:38 ok then but something changed in tone when the andromedans got introduced. 19:52:39 O, that's why. 19:52:42 oh wait 19:52:43 they were 19:53:00 fizzie, the dark one looks much more like fish eye 19:53:30 alise: Mmm. 19:53:33 oerjan: that's hardly the ending though. anyway what would you have preferred, he having destroyed Andromeda and nothing coming of it? what would be the point of that having happened, then? 19:53:42 AnMaster: 9 and 7 pics; taken with the phone, can't really switch lenses on that one. (Well, maybe with some sort of adapter.) 19:53:51 fizzie, rightr 19:53:53 right* 19:53:59 fizzie, this is going to be my real camera 19:54:05 I'll transfer it in a few seconds 19:54:19 and see if I can make a pano out of it 19:54:22 alise: Perhaps Tyro? 19:54:47 AnMaster: I'm here with the N900 (64k compo is about to start in 7 minutes), so I won't probably even try to look at any large images before I get out. 19:54:59 pikhq: I started reading Tyro and concluded Sam was right, it's crap writing. 19:55:21 fizzie, I'll scale them down. I'm on bad wlan 19:55:21 I quite like the concept. But yeah, Sam has definitely improved. 19:55:37 pikhq: The Fourth-And-A-Halfth Planet I would do something with if I understood it one damn bit. 19:55:38 Bit Rate=24 Mb/s Tx-Power=15 dBm 19:55:41 Link Quality=38/70 Signal level=-72 dBm 19:55:43 see? 19:55:48 In other news, huge amount (over 15) of 4k entries this year here. 19:55:56 Oh God I love that one. 19:56:15 AnMaster: WLAN here is so bad, I'm just using this 384k 3G. 19:56:36 fizzie, doesn't the n900 supports more than that? 19:56:54 fizzie, besides all those computers down the stairs look like they use ethernet 19:57:15 Yes, but I'd need to pay more for using more than that. :p 19:57:24 08:39:21 I'm trying to read the source for Epigram (literate Haskell). I should probably stop because I don't know enough about type theory to tell when they're joking or not. 19:57:24 That's just Conor. 19:57:31 Sit back and enjoy the ride; not even he knows. 19:57:34 fizzie, sucks thern 19:57:35 then* 19:57:45 fizzie, this wlan is free when you have a hotel room 19:57:46 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf, for anyone who wants to gawp. 19:58:11 AnMaster: The wlan here is free, but it's too sucky to use. 19:58:18 considering user/pw I very much doubt they could prevent someone over the street from using it... 19:58:25 and auth over http 19:58:46 AnMaster: I just meant that 3G speeds >384k would mean a more costly mobile subscription thing. 19:59:37 fizzie, anyway it will be below my usual standard... ISO400 19:59:44 I usually use ISO64... 20:00:16 09:47:25 and I noticed yesterday that it didn't like "movie" 20:00:16 in en-GB it is "film". 20:00:18 Everyone with a computer place (and the associated ethernet switch port) is supposed to be using it, but there's still overcrowding, and I guess they just don't pay that much attention to the wlan. 20:00:24 "movie" is en-usism 20:01:09 09:52:00 Fine, DOCTOR WHO. Anyway, I've noticed that happens a lot -- you learn a word, then suddenly hear it used. It's probably some kind of psychological trick, like, you heard the word before, but you didn't know what it meant, so you didn't retain the memory the same way. 20:01:09 baader-meinhof 20:01:10 alise, hm, most UK people I know use movie too 20:01:15 AnMaster: indeed. 20:01:16 at least on IRC 20:01:31 AnMaster: they probably say "gonna" at least occasionally IRL too. 20:01:37 it's called osmosis 20:01:57 alise, but I strongly suspect this dict is based on something like a too-old-to-be-copyrighted word list + some new stuff added in. 20:02:18 considering other cases 20:02:28 which I noticed before but I can't recall right atm 20:03:30 AnMaster: Factual data cannot be copyrighted, though a specific presentation can be. 20:04:11 pikhq: compilation copyright? 20:04:16 pikhq, true 20:04:20 well 20:04:25 at least somewhere 20:04:28 who knows 20:05:17 10:39:00 I can't eat kittens‽ Even ones that aren't my pet? 20:05:17 XD 20:05:40 10:56:51 Well, now my kitten has died of terminal stupidity. 20:06:06 Eating kittens is just plain wrong! And no one should do it! EVER! 20:06:53 http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lex5sz.jpg 20:06:57 * oerjan continues the tradition of quoting quotes without having seen the original 20:10:15 pikhq: How good is Slack's driver support? 20:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:14:14 pikhq: >_> 20:14:44 Does FreeBSD have a livecd these days? 20:15:20 -!- RoxFox64 has joined. 20:15:31 Heh, sweet 20:15:34 alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=freebsd+livecd 20:15:38 (kidding) :) 20:15:49 Anyone here still using befunge? 20:16:05 fungot: Yo. 20:16:06 pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 20:16:34 `addquote pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 20:16:35 alise: he was lounging in a chair surrounded by scrolls and scraps of paper. it had worked. he'd always been aware of it? 20:16:40 RoxFox64: Yes. 20:16:46 "it was fragrant with the scent of abomination."; new favourite quote. 20:16:50 ^style 20:16:51 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 20:17:07 207| pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 20:17:58 btw, is it possible to have a remote swap file, or does linux prevent it? 20:18:13 calamari: well, it's a swap partition. so, yes, like this: 20:18:21 use NFS to mount the remote host. 20:18:28 have a "foo" file on it. 20:18:32 mount -t swap -o loop foo 20:18:35 or however you mount swap these days 20:18:40 alise: Sweet. I managed to find small(But, old) interpreter that turns befunge to c. Then I made a script for linux, and a batch for windows to compile it, run it and dispose of it. 20:18:51 RoxFox64: It doesn't turn Befunge into C. 20:18:57 It bundles Befunge code with an interpreter. 20:19:34 alise: thanks I was trying to use mkswap and swapon.. maybe mount -t swap is what I needed 20:20:07 alise: I haven't bothered to look through the source fully. I just know it generates a c source. 20:20:27 I just wish I were more creative 20:20:44 I'd be able to make some complex stuff 20:20:59 calamari: I don't think mount -t swap actually works. 20:21:05 [["We caused that asteroid belt, four and a half billion years ago," said James. "It was going to condense into a planet called Earth, which was going to become our home planet when we eventually evolved on it. But we went back in time and blew it up." 20:21:06 Chay nodded sagely. "Why?"]] 20:21:07 Heck, I'd use Befunge for something like ASCII if I were 20:22:13 Eh? 20:22:53 pikhq: How long does a Gentoo install last these days/ 20:22:54 *days? 20:22:57 RoxFox64: "something like ascii"? 20:23:56 Sorry, ASCII art 20:24:06 Thats really what I meant 20:24:15 Right 20:24:33 ansi art is more fun :) 20:24:41 * RoxFox64 should make a befunge IDE of sorts 20:25:23 I love Smalltalk, but I absolutely despise smalltalk.org 20:25:27 Only thing I'd really have to do is make a text editor that forced insert mode on a row of spaces though. 20:26:07 fizzie, stitching atm.. 20:26:35 alise: Day or two? 20:26:46 pikhq: I thought the compile-everything installs were deprecated. 20:26:50 ah... auto exposure... how could I forget. Well too dark outside now to correct this 20:27:14 Sgeo: I've never heard of smalltalk.org. Ignore it. 20:27:17 alise: This is counting a complex desktop environment such as KDE or Gnome. 20:27:20 AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install! 20:27:21 pikhq: Ah. 20:27:26 alise: It's quite a bit less time if you have lesser needs. 20:27:40 Ah fuck it, why does stuff suck so much. 20:27:48 >_> 20:27:51 Perhaps an hour or two for one's initial install getting to a base, bootable system. 20:27:54 Blah blah whine moan. 20:28:00 pikhq: Okay. So how is Slack's driver support? 20:28:08 AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install! <-- on what system? 20:28:09 alise: Should be "reasonable". 20:28:11 alsie, sorry, the matrix has you 20:28:33 In a way it's a ironicly funny and twisted sorry state that those that promote the "safety of typed systems" and "additional capabilities of typed systems" also are promoting the "barren space devoid of the richness of runtime meta data". 20:28:36 It won't have proprietary drivers by default but it should have pretty much of Linux's supported drivers. 20:28:37 alise, are we talking about a dual-cpu system consisting of quad core xeon i7? 20:28:40 ^^from that site, not from me 20:28:42 or about a pentium2? 20:29:03 Are they utterly unaware that many statically typed languages (including C#) have metadata? 20:29:44 Sgeo: Non-static polymorphism kinda requires it. 20:29:50 pikhq: Ubuntu's last release lacked my Ethernet driver. The current one has it. 20:29:52 Does Slack have it? 20:29:59 alise: Maybe? 20:30:03 (where "static polymorphism" is C++ templates) 20:30:06 AnMaster: It's fast enough. 20:30:13 pikhq: XD 20:30:20 pikhq: It's ... Archos, I think. 20:33:36 The issue with the "spartan" distros is that I assemble the "perfect environment" then it ends up irritating me for no apparent reason. I don't know why. I'm strange. 20:34:55 here is a reduced size version: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window_small.jpg 20:36:01 just 5.2 MB 20:36:14 the tif is 48MB 20:36:21 pikhq: Diagnose me. :P 20:37:11 alise: You must write an OS. 20:37:39 His own OS will end up irritating him! 20:37:48 write an os where everything is a dependency 20:38:07 Far worse than the "perfect environment", imagine the scale of a "perfect os"'s irrittation 20:38:13 Why is my a key broken? 20:38:26 pikhq: That isn't a diagnosis. 20:39:04 alise: No, it's a prescription. 20:39:12 pikhq: For what illness? 20:39:27 alise: NIH Syndrome. 20:39:36 :D 20:39:45 pikhq: I know I have /that/; what's /this/ illness? 20:39:49 Also, how much does KDE4 suck? 20:40:21 alise: well it made me go back to gnome, does tha help? lol 20:40:32 alise, actually this current one is exactly NIH 20:40:58 fizzie, full size at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window.jpg 20:41:29 calamari: yeah but that's /gnome/ 20:41:42 AnMaster: did you use a program to stitch that? 20:42:07 calamari, no, I looked at the tif images then wrote a new one in a hex editor 20:42:08 :P 20:42:14 calamari, of course I used one. 20:42:17 AnMaster: which one? 20:42:22 hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above 20:42:41 calamari, that is http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg 20:42:49 and http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg 20:43:20 AnMaster: Even the reduced-size version isn't very phone-friendly; but I guess it's okay for this half-a-gig-of-RAM iBook. 20:43:31 fizzie, hm okay 20:43:46 fizzie, I'm on my 4GB of RAM thinkpad atm 20:43:53 okay I guess I'll ask fizzie when he gets back 20:44:10 calamari, he is back 20:44:11 I used to have 1.25G of RAM in this, but I donated a gigabyte away. 20:44:12 oh he's back.. 20:44:16 * RoxFox64 will return 20:44:23 fizzie, 1.25 - 1 = 0.5 ? 20:44:25 since when? 20:44:27 Okay, someone name something other than Arch in a few minutes, or the kitty gets it. 20:44:35 fizzie: what stitching program are you using? 20:44:46 AnMaster: I got a .25 back for the 1 I gave away. 20:44:50 calamari: The same as AnMaster. :p 20:44:53 calamari, anyway I told you the app above. hugin 20:44:54 calamari: (That is, Hugin.) 20:45:18 -!- RoxFox64 has left (?). 20:45:25 okay thanks 20:45:35 calamari, it was right at the start of this line: hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above 20:45:39 so um, why ask fizzie? 20:45:46 yeah I thought that was some kind of insult 20:45:52 calamari, huh? 20:45:59 calamari: "You're such a hugin!" 20:46:04 :D 20:46:04 you were being weird so I figured you didn't want to tell me lol 20:46:15 The kitty is about to get it. 20:46:29 calamari, no, I just thought it was obvious you can't do that without a program 20:46:37 I mean, you need to do lots of corrections 20:46:49 AnMaster: I've done it with the gimp 20:47:00 If you have a real, calibrated panorama-head, you can sort-of do it with just regular image-processing tools. 20:47:09 calamari, I mean, I get a horrible stitch if I don't optimise the various lens distortion parameters 20:47:20 * alise shoots the kitty 20:47:21 but then that is taken at most zoomed out setting 20:47:24 You're all responsible for a feline's death. 20:47:29 which is quite wide angle 20:47:40 calamari, anyway with gimp you will likely get a very bad match 20:47:54 JFS! JFS roolz, other filesystems droolz. 20:47:56 yeah my results weren't very good 20:48:15 that's why I was either going to be very impressed or want to know what program you used.. anyhow.. lol 20:48:20 Also, there were only 6 64k entries; it tends to oscillate. 20:49:05 Every other year there's a whole bunch of great 64k's and very few 4k's; and then the opposite for the next year. 20:49:29 I'm a doctor, and I killed a kitten! 20:49:39 fizzie, how strange 20:49:43 fizzie, any known reason for it? 20:50:22 You are all completely oblivious to my afriddiliminosik. 20:50:30 Possibly it's because people think "oh, there were so few Xk entries this year, maybe I'll write one for the next year, since it'll be easier to win". 20:50:59 fizzie, so the best strategy would be to go for the other one? 20:51:01 as in 20:51:07 the one with many entries last year 20:51:23 Possibly, though it's by no means an exact rule, just a tendency. 20:51:27 right so definitely go for 4k next year 20:51:32 anyone know my postcode? i need it 20:51:37 fizzie, still 20:52:05 Also it seems that doing oldskool entries is reasonably safe, since the amount of those has been declining for the last few years; this time there were only 4 oldskool demo entries. 20:53:19 the nice thing with 4k demos is that there are only so many ones that exist; you can rule out all of the ones that already exist, since you won't want to copy them 20:53:31 meaning that you have a pretty good chance to hit on a good demo vs a bad one, vs a bigger file size! 20:53:35 [[UBER LOGIK]] 20:53:42 fizzie, why not make a 4k one and then submit it to both, but pad it with 60k for the 64k one? 20:54:17 Generally you'd need to have a bit more content in a 64k entry. But you could possibly do a 4k, and then an "extended edition" 64k. 20:54:36 hm yeah that sounds like a good idea 20:55:10 Damn UNetbootin, you crazy. 20:55:35 It's a bit gaming-the-rules thing; I'm not sure if they have anything explicitly against it, though. And it *is* common to do stuff like using the same C64 picture both as an entry in the graphics compo and as a part of a C64 demo. 20:56:12 alise, UNetbootin being= 20:56:14 s/=/?/ 20:56:23 AnMaster: a thing 20:56:36 how helpful 20:56:36 it can do crazy things. 20:56:53 like boot a Linux live CD and install it when all you have is a drive running windows, no optical or USB drives 20:58:16 ah, not that hard assuming you can fit the cd image in memory 20:58:38 (assuming you want to over-write windows) 20:59:10 AnMaster: not about memory 20:59:16 alise, ? 20:59:18 it unpacks a bootloader plus the squashfs file into C:\ 20:59:25 eh 20:59:26 adds a bootloader option into Windows' bootloader 20:59:33 that boots the bootloader from C:\ 20:59:36 which then boots the squashfs 20:59:42 which then sees itself /and/ the windows partition 20:59:49 alise, my solution would be to put ntfs-3g or such on the initramfs and then loop mount the iso 20:59:52 admittedly, you need a spare partition to install 20:59:56 and them copy that to tmpfs 21:00:02 AnMaster: how would you boot it in the first place? 21:00:03 then* 21:00:08 alise: So, it's exploiting how live CDs work. Nice. 21:00:41 alise, little known fact: bootloader of windows nt/xp and presumably later versions can chainload grub 21:00:49 if you put grub in a file on the ntfs partition 21:00:59 AnMaster: yeah, um, that's what unetbootin does 21:01:01 iirc you copy the mbr (perhaps some more) 21:01:06 except with syslinux i think iirc 21:01:08 since it's ntfs... 21:01:14 alise, okay that works too, but I done it with grub 21:01:15 don't recall 21:01:36 I've only done it with LILO; grub's some sort of newfangled nonsense! 21:01:47 yeah right 21:03:20 anyway, with tmpfs and then unmounting the iso and the ntfs-3g fs you could easily resize the windows partition from there, or even overwrite it. Of course... if something goes wrong, or you lose power... you are not going to like it 21:03:29 Now booting into Arch to see if it supports my Ethernet. 21:03:33 -!- alise has quit. 21:04:26 I never heard of that being an issue... wlan yes 21:04:51 but not ethernet 21:05:05 If it's something very new, there might be a bit of a lag for the supporting. 21:05:38 Or even just a new variant that switches PCI ids or some-such to make it not autodetektize correctly. 21:05:52 (That sort of stuff gets fixed real fast, of course.) 21:07:01 true 21:18:10 "Smalltalk is based on the idea, that if you both want to define @, then you probably are defining it with the same semantics :)" 21:19:05 Sgeo, you mean duck typing? 21:19:21 well, that is the effect of that 21:24:36 My objection (not as related to duck typing as AnMaster thinks) may be ended 21:24:52 Sgeo, hm? 21:25:18 Sgeo, if it was your objection, why did you quote it? 21:25:48 My problem wasn't that MyClass and YourClass might both define #something, it was that both my project and your project might define Object>>something 21:25:57 AnMaster, I was quoting someone's response 21:26:10 ah 21:26:31 hm I can't say I know smalltalk. What does >> do? 21:27:27 It doesn't do anything, it's just a convention to say, in the case of Object>>something, Object defines a method something 21:28:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:28:37 hm 21:28:38 ais523, hi 21:30:27 hi AnMaster 21:32:34 aBag = Bag new. aBag add: ais523. 21:32:40 * AnMaster curses the hotel wlan 21:32:47 oops 21:32:50 Sgeo: SmallTalk? 21:32:51 aBag := Bag new. aBag add: ais523. 21:32:54 Bit Rate=5.5 Mb/s 21:32:55 Yes 21:32:59 ... 21:33:01 The second one, not the first 21:33:02 also, why are you trying to add me to a new bag? 21:33:17 Why not? >:D 21:33:47 random fact: Feather's syntax is designed to resemble SmallTalk's as much as possible whilst meaning something completely different 21:34:09 ha 21:35:35 ais523, okay now post the details on that 21:35:54 I haven't worked them out yet 21:35:57 ais523, or is this just a joke at our expense? A DNF of esolangs 21:36:07 DNF is actually a good comparison 21:36:16 because it was being worked on right until the point where it was cancelled, apparently 21:36:36 ais523, well, feather isn't cancelled is it? 21:36:41 exactly 21:37:20 it may have been cancelled already in the future 21:38:04 XD 21:38:39 -!- alise has joined. 21:38:48 I was going to say something-- 21:38:50 oh yeah 21:38:57 Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right? 21:39:04 Or, if it does: why, and how much? 21:39:09 Hi ais523. 21:39:23 aBag add: alise. 21:39:25 hi 21:39:55 Sgeo: I wonder why they didn't call it a Set. 21:40:04 alise, it has sets 21:40:07 Well, at least Sgeo is growing taste in languages. 21:40:18 Bags can contain duplicates 21:40:20 ais523: any opinions on that swap thing? :-P 21:40:20 Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right? <-- do you want suspend to disk? 21:40:22 the difference between a bag and a set is that bags contain duplicates 21:40:22 Sgeo: ah. 21:40:26 Sgeo: multiset :P 21:40:32 alise: I don't know much about swapping 21:40:38 AnMaster: Well, not /especially/, but it would be quite nice ... 21:40:42 AnMaster: Can't it use my proper disk? 21:40:44 but AnMaster's correct in that you need swap to be able to hibernate 21:40:46 *nice... 21:40:51 ais523: Okay; firstly, why? secondly, why? 21:40:52 alise, it uses swap for hibernate 21:40:54 because the way it's implemented is by swapping everything out of memory, and then shutting down 21:40:58 Yes. 21:41:03 what is Sgeo working on now 21:41:03 And why can't it just swap out ... to disk? 21:41:06 As in, an existing program? 21:41:09 coppro: he's just learning Smalltalk. 21:41:11 alise, what do you mean, to disk 21:41:15 then when you load again, everything's in swap, and it swaps it out as it reads it 21:41:15 coppro: so the ladies will like him. 21:41:19 AnMaster: to my existing / partition 21:41:22 or whatever 21:41:23 alise, to disk, yes your swap partition on the disk 21:41:26 a specified partition with stuff on it already 21:41:37 alise: presumably it would be a mess, because it would require unswapping everything immediately on boot 21:41:41 or else leaving the file around 21:41:48 But existing OSes do this... 21:41:56 I don't see any huge barriers to the concept, but it would be harder to implement, thus probably hasn't been 21:41:56 Okay, so, what, I should have four freaking gigs of swap?! 21:41:58 alise, well I don't know if hibernate supports swap files, but you can use a file as swap, not really recommended due to slower performance 21:42:03 still it needs to be fixed in size 21:42:18 and it's fine for the swap to be smaller 21:42:24 ais523, anyway, how comes encrypted swap works? 21:42:26 the hibernate just fails if you're using more memory at the time than you have swap 21:42:30 ais523: Beh. 21:42:32 ais523, it does, I used it. 21:42:36 AnMaster: it works just like normal swap, but encrypted.. 21:42:42 Okay, anyone want to check if a swap file can be hibernated to? 21:42:48 Then you'd just do 21:42:52 [initiate swap file] 21:42:53 [hibernate] 21:42:54 ais523, means that the initramfs somehow gets the kernel to load from the right partition? 21:42:56 Then, post-hibernate: 21:42:58 after asking for password 21:43:01 [disable swap file] 21:43:01 to unlock it 21:43:02 [remove swap file] 21:43:05 with cryptsetup-luks 21:43:07 can you hot-disable a swap file? 21:43:15 ais523: Well, "swapoff"... 21:43:16 ais523, you mean swapoff ? 21:43:28 hmm, in that case, incorporating swapoff into the hibernate routine would make sense 21:43:30 (I didn't know it existed) 21:43:32 So /if/ you can hibernate to a swap file, that should work great. The question is, can you? 21:43:41 This is kind of important because JFS sort of sucks at resizing. 21:43:52 By "sort of sucks" I basically mean "it doesn't really support it at all". 21:44:19 alise: http://wiki.debian.org/Hibernation/Hibernate_Without_Swap_Partition might be useful 21:44:22 I have no idea how accurate it is 21:44:25 Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre. 21:44:31 ais523: I have even less of a web browser than you right now. 21:44:34 What does it say? 21:44:55 it suggests making a lot of config changes to the way swapping works, and installing a package called "uswsusp" 21:45:00 alise, hm, I found ext4 a reliable work horse. Sure, not the fastest one, or the one having most features, but very very solid. 21:45:22 on a HA linux server I would probably go for ext4 on RAID6 or such 21:45:50 there's also an Ubuntu bug report, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/252143 21:46:01 AnMaster: I didn't ask what filesystem to use. 21:46:03 where they complain about the UI being incapable of realising that hibernation is possible even when it is, in a no-swapfile setup 21:46:12 JFS has the best disaster recovery of any production-ready Linux filesystem, btw. 21:46:12 Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre. <-- you mean frame buffer? 21:46:16 (And the quickest recovery.) 21:46:17 how is that bizarre? 21:46:19 AnMaster: I don't know; presumably. 21:46:22 AnMaster: Because it's only a console! 21:46:32 ``I love how fag quotes work properly with the default console fonts.'' 21:46:35 alise, um, almost every distro I used does that 21:46:37 No output. 21:46:41 well, modern ones 21:46:53 apparently WUBI used to use a hibernate-to-swapfile setup (due to not repartitioning anything) 21:47:02 but it was buggy in some way the bug report doesn't explain 21:47:02 ais523: So, does it work properly? 21:47:04 Is it very slow? 21:47:07 Do I really give a damn? 21:47:34 the implication I get is fast, but buggy in some distros 21:47:42 Right. Buggy I can handle; I'm using Arch. 21:47:45 Buggy, I am absolutely prepared for. 21:47:57 Now, ASIDE from hibernation, will I need swap with 4 GiBs of RAM? 21:48:02 No assuming ridiculous usecases, AnMaster. 21:48:07 alise, ? 21:48:18 anyway, hibernate-to-file should work just fine in theory, even without additional setup 21:48:29 and I suppose we can find out via experiment how it fails in practice 21:48:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:48:43 AnMaster: I thought you would go all ``Well if you're reconfiguring the LHC, you'll need more...'' 21:48:52 alise, well, I don't know what is ridiculous to you. Presumably you don't stitch HDR panoramas. Which makes my thinkpad swap trash 21:48:58 ais523: Then I'll fill the rest of my disk. 21:49:04 AnMaster: 'Deed I don't. 21:49:15 alise, compile ghc or open office? 21:49:22 probably not either 21:49:26 AnMaster: GHC doesn't take much RAM to compile. I don't _want_ OpenOffice. 21:49:31 I compile GHC quite often; distros suck at it. 21:49:39 GHC is slow to compile, yes, but not hoggy. 21:49:44 alise, how? 21:49:44 hm good point 21:49:50 I only have ~120 GiB of free disk, so saving 4 GiB will be nice. 21:49:52 alise: out of interest, do you want any office software (AbiWord or Microsoft Word on WINE or whatever)? 21:49:55 alise, compile llvm at -j42? 21:49:56 or are you happy without it? 21:49:56 No swap partition it is. 21:50:04 that is quite ridiculous though 21:50:07 What's wrong with the version of GHC in Ubuntu's repositories? 21:50:08 ais523: Ouch at the latter. AbiWord is ... acceptable, when I have to use it. 21:50:19 AnMaster: why on earth would you be using more threads than 1.5 times the number of cores you have? 21:50:22 ais523: I generally either jot down stuff in a text file or use LaTeX. Or HTML. 21:50:31 ais523, rounded upwards or downwards? 21:50:32 the only reason you use more threads than the number of cores you have at all is a scheduler bug 21:50:35 ais523: Why on earth would you be using more threads than the number of cores you have? Because you're using a broken scheduler. 21:50:38 ais523: ha! 21:50:44 ais523: BTW, Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler fixes that issue. 21:50:49 optimal performance is -j 21:50:51 AnMaster: I don't know; does it really matter? 21:50:59 ais523, and no reason at all, unless they are somehow network IO bound or such, with latency being the main bottleneck 21:51:16 so if you use NFS over IP over avian carrier I guess it might be reasonable 21:51:17 XD 21:51:22 Hmm. I wonder how easy it is to get BFS on Gentoo. 21:51:27 pikhq, BFS? 21:51:36 Brain Fuck Scheduler. 21:51:46 ah 21:51:59 is -j1 fastest for a single-core with all schedulers? 21:52:00 but hm, I notice no speed up with -j3 compared to -j2 on my thinkpad 21:52:02 I'd guess it would be 21:52:02 Oh, awesome. 21:52:10 "No separate /boot partition! No swap partition defined!" Arch, you complain so. 21:52:12 Use ck-sources instead of gentoo-sources 21:52:15 -j2 compared to -j1 on my single core sempron 3300+ though... 21:52:22 Adds Con Kolivas's patchset to the Gentoo patchset. 21:52:29 pikhq: You might want to look at the Zen kernel too. 21:52:31 * pikhq shall do that after this torrent finishes 21:52:33 pikhq: It adds TuxOnIce, BFS, etc. 21:52:33 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:52:37 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:52:38 pikhq: Maybe just ck is fine though. 21:52:44 alise: Mmm, zen-sources may be nice. 21:52:48 hmm, using an unusually high -j value would be nice if the make was X-bound for a huge bunch of different Xs in different components 21:52:53 Isn't it weird, a 1.3 GHz CPU with 4 GiBs of RAM at its disposal? 21:52:58 so you could do IO-bound and network-bound and CPU-bound things all at once 21:53:01 A few years ago you'd be laughed at for suggesting it. 21:53:09 "Nonsense; we'll be using 4 GHz CPUs with that memory in a few years!" 21:53:18 "And if the CPU is low-powered, no reason to put expensive RAM in it!" 21:53:28 alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up 21:53:37 but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores 21:53:38 ais523, that too, but my scenario also makes sense, for a certain value of sense 21:53:39 Huh, BFS also makes the kernel smaller. 21:53:45 ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/. 21:53:47 For power usage, etc. 21:53:51 pikhq: Yes. 21:53:57 pikhq: Because it removes CFS. 21:54:03 alise: well, I really don't care about my clockspeed 21:54:03 pikhq: Which is not Brain Fuckedly simple. 21:54:20 mostly because you can't get an electronic engineering degree without realising that lower is normally better, if you can speed the resulting speed up some other way 21:54:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:54:45 alise, I still do quite a few heavy serial tasks, meaning I want a reasonably high clock speed 21:54:52 2.26 GHz is quite nice 21:54:55 like this laptop 21:55:00 ha ha, AnMaster doesn't understand how CPU architectures work 21:55:03 everybody laugh at him 21:55:05 alise: just do those heavy serial tasks simultaneously 21:55:09 *AnMaster: 21:55:24 ais523, doesn't help if it is one task only really 21:55:34 and sure, there are other ways to improve speed 21:55:36 AnMaster: I'd be surprised if your /life/ was that serial 21:55:39 better instruction set and so on 21:55:39 "My CPU is a 10 GHz Subleq! Fuck yeah, serial tasks." 21:55:46 ais523: Oh, trust me; AnMaster's life /is/ that serial. 21:55:57 What could be more important than stitching panoramas?! 21:56:09 well, you can stitch two panoramas at once 21:56:12 ais523, of course I do other stuff while waiting. I'm in no way suggesting that dual core or quad core is bad 21:56:19 and even then, that task seems somewhat parallelisable 21:56:27 STITCHING TEN PANORAMAS AT ONCE YEAAAAAAAAAAAARGH 21:56:46 PHOTOGRAPHER HULK SMASH (IMAGES TOGETHER) 21:57:17 just that 2x 2 GHz is better than 40 x 50 MHz 21:57:24 well, that is exaggerated 21:57:29 you still get my point though 21:57:46 but not as good as 1,000,000,000,000 x 100 Hz! 21:57:54 alise, stitching is quite parallelisable 21:58:01 modulo typos 21:58:02 (think Connection Machine) 21:58:36 alise, for some tasks that might actually be better, not for my use case though 21:58:55 same as 40 x 50 MHz could be better for some use cases as well 22:01:03 NETWORK_PERSIST=yes will speed up shutdown, right? 22:01:15 since it "skips network shutdown" 22:01:19 Huh. BFS manages to make latency lower with more CPUs. Nice. 22:01:20 any bad side-effects? 22:02:22 AnMaster: I guarantee that any even vaguely modern CPU executes things in parallel. 22:02:35 pikhq, yes I know about that 22:02:48 pikhq, in this case I specifically meant multiple cores 22:03:04 pikhq, rather than out-of-order, superscalar and so on 22:03:19 anyone wrt NETWORK_PERSIST? AnMaster? You know arch. 22:03:26 So, you are specifically referring to SMP. You probably still see benefits from it. 22:03:30 alise, NETWORK_PERSIST? 22:03:44 from /etc/rc.conf 22:03:50 alise, anyway I don't have arch handy to check atm. I'm on a hotel room with my thinkpad running ubuntu 22:03:57 Deewiant? 22:04:18 pikhq, oh definitely, which I also said 22:05:06 pikhq, but I wasn't complaining about SMP, nor NUMA, rather I'm saying that: 22:05:17 alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up 22:05:17 but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores 22:05:17 ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/. 22:05:26 is not always such a good idea 22:05:33 sure, for power usage it makes sense 22:05:46 AnMaster: do you have any idea how crazy things are at high frequencies, in general? 22:06:04 lower frequency = saner 22:06:10 is the general rule of electronics 22:06:13 ais523, well, to some degree. I don't have a degree in EE though 22:06:18 (slight possible exception: DC and AC work very differently) 22:06:40 High clock frequencies are *hard*. And the Pentium 4 managed to nearly top out on practical CPU clock frequency. 22:07:37 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:08:04 ais523, still, a) a lot of current software can't make easy use of multiple cores b) many tasks can't be parralellised very easy. Sure you can still run several of them at once, but sometimes you might only need one and you would prefer that getting done faster 22:08:09 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:08:48 alise: Beats me 22:08:50 AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once. 22:08:51 in /etc/hosts does the preferred hostname come first or last? 22:09:32 as an example that is actually on topic, consider esolang interpreters. Specifically something like "running a bf program". You can probably split part of the optimising of the program in multiple threads (though some will depend on the inferred state at the end of the previous section and so on), but running it? no? 22:09:41 AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once. <-- again I never claimed anything else 22:09:41 Doesn't it have localhost and localhost.localdomain by default 22:09:51 Deewiant: plus "myhost" 22:10:05 I've removed "localhost.localdomain" 22:10:18 I guess localhost would be preferred of those two, anyway 22:10:19 AnMaster: you mean your BF interp doesn't autoparallelize loops? 22:10:23 but I can say that my computer is currently mostly idle. I'm using irc, and htop. Then there is a number of stuff like udevd, various kernel processes, and what not running 22:10:27 Apparently the FSF itself doesn't understand the GDFL. Nice. 22:10:48 ais523, that could be done, but there are lots of programs that would gain nothing from it 22:10:48 ??? 22:10:49 weird.. with their demo batch it works great, but with my own photos, hugin didn't work at all 22:11:01 how did you get it to turn out so well? 22:11:02 Phantom_Hoover: *GFDL? 22:11:08 I understand it relatively well 22:11:27 ais523: oh my god amazing idea 22:11:28 partly because I used to be a Wikipedia admin, partly because I've used it myself for things that it's actually vaguely appropriate for 22:11:30 wrt parallelising loops 22:11:34 time to work on The Ultimate BF optimiser :D 22:11:41 yup 22:11:55 ais523: you could do /all/ polynomialised loops like that, I think 22:12:06 maybe 22:12:19 why would you parallelize a polynomialised loop? 22:12:19 ais523, lets take [->++>+++<<] and for the moment ignore that this could be turned into a simple p[1]=p[0]*2; p[2]=p[0]*3;p[0]=0; 22:12:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:12:33 you'd just polynomialise it instead 22:12:34 ais523, well, the FSF apparently told WP to ask their attorney. 22:12:43 ais523: I mean [ [...polynomial loop...] ] 22:12:49 ah 22:12:50 which turns into [ some polynomial ] 22:12:57 i'm pretty sure you could run those in parallel 22:12:59 ais523, all three written values would be in same cache line with high probability. Sure they might be split across two, but probably won't be 22:12:59 Phantom_Hoover: too be fair, the WP's attorney is Mike Godwin 22:13:10 *to be fair 22:13:12 ais523: wow, really? :D 22:13:16 yes, that Godwin 22:13:21 Godwin as in the Law? 22:13:22 ais523, as I said, lets ignore that for the moment: you'd just polynomialise it instead 22:13:24 the FSF probably just decided he was the best person 22:13:25 Phantom_Hoover: yep 22:13:29 Wow... 22:13:35 also, argh the lag 22:13:39 ``I request that the court consider the fact that the vandal, WillyOnWheels, has several similarities to the Nazis and indeed Hitler.'' 22:13:40 No output. 22:13:46 " you'd just polynomialise it instead" to " Godwin as in the Law?" showed up in 1 second 22:13:47 So, will he be comparing the CIA to Nazis 22:13:49 -_- 22:14:18 Godwin never stated that all comparisions to Nazis are accurate 22:14:22 Why would he use one? 22:14:29 hur wat is joek 22:14:38 "Your honour, someone else didn't allow us to use our logo. They were the Nazis. The defence rests." 22:14:45 s/our/their/ 22:15:37 ``The defence rests ON THE JUSTICE OF THIS COURT, which is so unlike many courts which are not justful. Do you know what one of those courts was? That's right. The court of the NAZIS.'' 22:15:38 No output. 22:16:06 alise, easy on the backquotes. 22:16:15 So, will he be comparing the CIA to Nazis <-- ?? 22:16:32 wow, it must be awful to be Mike Godwin 22:16:33 Phantom_Hoover: But ``fag quotes'' work perfectly with the right console font! 22:16:36 ais523: XD 22:16:38 and have people do this sort of thing everywhere you go 22:16:38 what have I missed here 22:16:43 AnMaster, CIA sues WP for using their logo thing. WP's attorney is Godwin. 22:16:48 Fill in blanks. 22:16:49 ais523: ITYM ``awesome'' 22:16:50 Phantom_Hoover: *FBI 22:16:51 ah 22:17:05 FBIAC 22:17:08 ais523, same difference 22:17:16 GRUB? Pah. 22:17:17 Godwin's response was awesome 22:17:20 Gimme lilo. 22:17:23 GIVE ME LILO 22:17:34 LILO: The best thing since sliced lilo! 22:17:40 alise: you're turning into a stereotyped Gentoo user... 22:17:48 alise, It's a bootloader. You use it for what, 3 seconds? 22:17:48 eh 22:17:58 I never seen a gentoo user claim that lilo was better than grub 22:18:00 ais523, ^ 22:18:02 Phantom_Hoover: THOSE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT 3 SECONDS OF MY LIFE. 22:18:07 as in, any actual gentoo user 22:18:10 ais523: no, a stereotypical AliseLinux OS 22:18:12 user 22:18:17 ah, ok 22:18:17 alise, indeed 22:18:17 aliseLinux OS, how redundant 22:18:19 like PCLinuxOS 22:18:29 AnMaster: Yeah, but it's still an option on Gentoo. :) 22:18:37 It's a Linux-based operating system that runs on your personal computer! We have our brand name! 22:18:40 alise, PCLinuxOS for Personal Computers you mean? 22:18:52 pikhq, is it? huh 22:19:00 pikhq, I thought it was elilo that was 22:19:14 Nope, straight Lilo is still in Portage. 22:19:17 It's easy enough to uninstall GRUB, right? 22:19:18 wtf 22:19:34 And Gentoo does not install a bootloader by default. 22:19:43 pikhq: how do you load it by default? 22:19:43 alise, is this still on arch? 22:19:45 I'm curious now 22:20:02 ais523, while on livecd, you install one? 22:20:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:12 You ... can uninstall GRUB, right? :D 22:20:15 AnMaster: boring 22:20:16 alise: Yes. 22:20:19 Good. 22:20:40 ais523, since you install by extracting tarball, editing a bit in /etc, then chrooting and installing one for each package where multiple alternatives exist 22:20:44 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:20:50 ais523, such as dhcp client, boot loader, and so on 22:20:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders how Ubuntu would react to "sudo aptitude remove grub" or whatever the package is 22:20:56 oh and you build kernel there too 22:21:23 Arch installed. 22:21:30 ais523: "AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" 22:21:30 ais523, grub has priority: optional 22:21:52 ais523, however, it seems linux-image depends on grub 22:21:54 AnMaster: that implies it's not part of a default install 22:21:57 wait, recommends 22:21:59 nvm 22:22:03 brb 22:22:06 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 22:22:23 * Phantom_Hoover hasn't got grub installed. 22:22:28 * coppro has 22:22:30 I have grub-pc. 22:22:48 ais523, I don't have any depends on grub... just recommends and suggests 22:22:51 ais523, how interesting 22:23:08 ais523, no, I'm not going to test anything. I don't have a boot cd handy 22:23:11 and so on 22:23:14 at hotel 22:23:20 well, depending on a particular bootloader strikes me as crazy 22:23:32 ais523, oh but grub provides a virtual 22:23:34 why should anything care about the specific bootloader used, apart from bootloader modules (if such things exist)? 22:23:39 the virtual makes a lot more sense 22:23:40 but aptitude claims nothing depends on the virtual 22:23:41 XD 22:23:54 well, why on earth would you write "this program depends on some bootloader"? 22:23:59 also, is the virtual marked as essential? 22:24:02 hm 22:24:03 (and thus a dependency of /everything/)? 22:24:05 let me check 22:24:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:24:17 linux-boot-loader 22:24:24 I can't find if it is essential or not 22:24:32 info doesn't show it 22:24:51 ais523, can virtuals even be essential? 22:25:03 ais523, actually, it being essential would be silly 22:25:10 ais523, think of stuff like chroot installs 22:25:17 or xen (not sure how that boots) 22:25:23 hmm 22:25:33 "depends on some bootloader" would only really make sense for init 22:25:37 which isn't needed in a chroot either 22:25:44 ais523, linux-image 22:25:47 makes sense there too 22:25:50 it is a recommends however 22:25:59 linux bootloaders recommend linux? 22:26:01 or vice versa? 22:26:12 linux-image recommends grub 22:26:15 as far as I can tell 22:26:28 ais523, anyway, freebsd jails (glorified and more secure chroots) run an init inside each jail 22:26:36 normally it's a case of depending on something in general and something in particular 22:26:38 just as a parenthesis 22:26:51 like C-INTERCAL depending on "gcc or a C compiler" 22:27:05 linux-image-2.6.32-24-generic recommends "grub-pc | grub | lilo (>= 19.1)" 22:27:07 to suggest that gcc is the right compiler to install if there isn't one already, but any C compiler can be used if there is one 22:27:47 ais523, anyway what about coreboot? you wouldn't use grub then. Or booting linux stored in a NOR flash 22:28:04 * ais523 vaguely wonders if there's a difference between NOR flash and NAND flash 22:28:08 other than, you know, logic levels 22:28:22 ais523, well, iirc you can't get execute-in-place for NAND 22:28:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:29:00 ais523, quoting WP: "the interface provided for reading and writing the memory is different (NOR allows random-access for reading, NAND allows only page access)" 22:29:43 hmm, so it's a case of the names describing a lot that's irrelevant to the actual names 22:29:44 as usual 22:29:55 ais523, "NOR and NAND flash get their names from the structure of the interconnections between memory cells.[16] In NOR flash, cells are connected in parallel to the bitlines, allowing cells to be read and programmed individually. The parallel connection of cells resembles the parallel connection of transistors in a CMOS NOR gate. In NAND flash, cells are connected in series, resembling a NAND gate." 22:30:08 "The series connections consume less space than parallel ones, reducing the cost of NAND flash. It does not, by itself, prevent NAND cells from being read and programmed individually." 22:30:16 so it seems it isn't actual NOR and NAND 22:30:32 oh, it's based on half of the usual implementations in terms of FETs 22:30:42 ais523, ? 22:30:50 or maybe even the entire thing if you're going open-drain 22:31:21 ais523, while I understand every word of what you just said, I do not understand the whole thing... 22:31:42 also, wouldn't open-drain consume quite a bit of power? 22:32:00 not necessarily 22:32:17 although I think it does use higher power than the usual logic levels 22:33:23 ais523, also WP: "In flash memory, each memory cell resembles a standard MOSFET, except the transistor has two gates instead of one." 22:42:26 ugh hugin keeps shrinking my image 22:42:31 is there a way to overrride? 22:45:39 Huh? You can specify any pixel-width you like in the stitching window. 22:46:13 If it shrinks in the preview, it means the optimizer thinks the field-of-view is smaller than what it was. 22:47:41 -!- cal153 has quit. 22:47:43 There's that "calculate optimal size" button which makes it calc pixel size for the output so that its resolution approximately matches the source images. 22:48:14 And the scrollbars in the preview control the fov. 22:55:12 I want to invent a 'patamagician class in Dungeons&Dragons 22:59:27 Plain TeX is more better than LaTeX! I have used both, and I have concluded that Plain TeX is more better. In addition, cross-references can be done in Plain TeX without needing auxiliary files or two passes. 23:00:13 'patamagician? 23:01:05 I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced 23:01:22 I'll check when I get home 23:02:37 I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon 23:02:40 -!- alise has joined. 23:02:57 Xorg 1.8: "We made hotplugging and automatic hardware detection work. Like, actually really honest-to-godly work." 23:03:08 "Oh, and NO MORE FUCKING .FDI." 23:03:22 A+++++ would buy again 23:03:23 Spaced? 23:03:28 coppro: Yes, it is my idea, 'patamagician class. Some of its features are both spontaneous and prepared casting (but less slots than normal, even in total), a null metamagic feat, extra 'patamagic uses, and cantripology (when you run out of all slots (both prepared and spontaneous), of all levels, you can get one free 0-level slot costing 1 XP) 23:03:33 coppro: Wat 23:03:41 night 23:03:49 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 23:07:01 So, anyone know of a Linux browser that isn't naff? ...Yeah, didn't think so. 23:07:13 s/Linux// 23:07:16 See Phantom_Hoover, I said ``naff'' instead of ``sucky''. 23:07:20 What does "naff" means? 23:07:20 Seriously, web browsers suck universally. 23:07:22 pikhq: That too. s/ / /. 23:07:27 pikhq: Yes I agree 23:07:30 zzo38: British slang for "kind of rubbish". 23:07:40 Software, really, sucks universally. 23:07:44 zzo38: Something naff is... ineffectual, useless; like "crappy" but more... bleh-y. 23:07:57 pikhq: Be careful! Phantom_Hoover will DESTROY your negativity with a Care Bear stare. 23:08:27 I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced 23:08:27 I'll check when I get home 23:08:27 I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon 23:08:30 and AFK 23:08:47 Sgeo: I did 23:08:50 Sgeo: I corrected it 23:08:52 see my lastest link 23:08:57 I missed one chapter out 23:09:03 AFK 23:09:52 coppro: Spac\'ed (I dunno how to do the rightwards-pointing accent in the Linux console...) is the second major story-arc of the Ed stories. 23:10:01 http://qntm.org/ed, or see the logs for my nicely-typeset PDF. 23:10:15 ig 23:10:17 meh 23:10:44 pikhq: Hmm... how is Konqueror these days? 23:10:54 Meh. 23:10:57 * alise installs Midori 23:11:03 If you disable some toolbar icons it's... usable. 23:11:48 I would also like to note that pekwm is a pretty nice window manager. 23:13:40 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:21:03 Hey, pikhq. If GTK et al are rendering UI elements and text in bitmap fonts, what does that mean? 23:21:08 I think I have non-bitmap fonts installed. 23:21:52 Uh. I dunno. 23:21:53 Actually /no I don't/. 23:21:59 That'd do it. 23:22:05 Arch is really a bit anal with the "DO NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING IN PACKAGES! ANYTHING!!!!" thing. 23:22:06 AAAAAAAAAAA http://www.firstpersontetris.com/ 23:22:20 oerjan: Just from the URL: <3<3<3 23:22:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:23:02 * alise "sacrifices the present at the altar of the future" by installing the bitstream fonts 23:23:34 It's flash 23:24:34 pikhq: I've installed Linux Libertine. I guess I have to tell something that's my default font now, huh? 23:24:59 And AFK soon forreal 23:25:23 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:25:38 Sgeo: interestingly, that fact never crossed my mind. but then i was seriously dizzy most of the time. 23:26:08 I use FlashBlock, so I immediately notice 23:26:58 pikhq: Linux Biolinium O. Yeeeees <3 23:27:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 23:29:49 alise: Sadly, Linux Biolinium is not finished. 23:31:37 :( FlashBlock 23:31:37 pikhq: But it IS hot. 23:31:46 Furthermore, OMG GTK+ THEMES STOP SUCKING. 23:32:39 -!- alise has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:32:39 alise: The hinting sucks though. 23:34:41 linux botulinum 23:35:23 Why are there no nice monospaced fonts/ 23:35:23 the _final_ operating system 23:37:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:40:24 -!- SimonRC has joined. 23:40:31 Linux Bio-linoleum; the environmentally conscious, yet cheap and durable operating system. 23:40:53 * Phantom_Hoover does that weird snorty laugh thing 23:42:19 Oh, it's a font? 23:42:41 Any reason for it being called _Linux_ Biolinum in particular? 23:42:53 Sgeo, it's for Linux. 23:42:59 And why is it called Grotesque 23:43:01 I assume. 23:43:12 Sgeo, typography people have awesome terminology. 23:43:46 alise gave me a list of the proper terms for points. They're fantastic. 23:43:51 grotesque should be something with tentacles perfect for printing lovecraft stories 23:44:11 18 pt: paragon 23:44:15 "A sans serif style with moderate stroke contrast and modern proportions particular to the U.K. Usually features a two-story lowercase g, closed strokes (usually curving in slightly) on C and S, and a sloped, non-cursive italic. Classic example: Bureau Grot." 23:45:42 What typeface do the examples in http://typedia.com/learn/only/anatomy-of-a-typeface/ use? 23:45:44 It looks nice 23:47:22 How is the tail in R decorative 23:47:46 Ooh, the tail of that R was nice and curved in the input box. Too bad the .. chat thingy uses a different font 23:49:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 23:49:46 Hence "decorative". 23:50:08 Seriously, why aren't there any nice monospace fonts? 23:51:23 Particularly, monospace fonts that handle funny characters elegantly. 23:53:27 I still have no idea what a Foundry is 23:53:43 Except that some fonts are either missing them or missing information on them on Typedia 23:57:03 A type foundry creates fonts. 23:57:11 Well, typefaces. 23:57:21 Hence FontForge? 23:57:51 To install fonts on Ubuntu I simply copy them into ~/.fonts, right?