00:00:09 It's far more likely that his evil twin murdered him. 00:00:44 Yes! And his evil twin, being evil, is Left-handed! 00:00:49 It all makes sense now! 00:01:06 Of course1 00:02:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:04:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:41 -!- augur has joined. 00:05:19 I don't know Gregor-W 00:06:07 Sgeo__, you're kidding, right? 00:06:27 What does -W mean? Windows? 00:06:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:06:36 W is for Work 00:06:38 Ah 00:06:44 P is for Phone 00:06:47 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 00:06:48 * Sgeo__ knew that 00:06:55 (The Phone, not the Work) 00:07:04 L is for Evil Twin Sunk the Ferry I Was On 00:07:08 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 00:07:18 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:07:18 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 00:07:18 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:19:52 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:20:47 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:21:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 00:25:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:42:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:45:00 comex, what is Rock? 00:46:53 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:52:13 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:11:30 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 01:40:16 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 01:43:22 -L and [no suffix] are currently the same system, since my laptop is my primary machine right now. 01:43:39 I have ... a lot of ways to connect to IRC 01:46:51 * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room 01:48:50 * Sgeo__ ponders allowing Pharo to accept Ruby syntax 02:00:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:15:07 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:28:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:31:26 Last week's Futurama is now on, in case anyone missed it. If you missed it, WATCH IT! 02:34:05 THIS CONCEPT OF LAST WEEK CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US 02:35:24 {{ I'd respond with "SURELY YOU MEAN", but I didn't misspell "Last week", afaik }} 02:37:43 is it a different futurama each week? 02:39:03 Yes; Futurama is airing again. 02:44:51 FOR US AMERICANS ANYWAY 02:45:11 You Euros'll get it in a year or three I'm sure. 02:46:19 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:49:17 Gregor-P: Internet! Bits! Speed of electricity! 02:54:51 ILLEGALS 02:55:06 Interweb anchor babies! 03:15:37 -!- iamcal has joined. 03:16:47 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:20:35 -!- augur has joined. 03:24:32 Sgeo__: ok, I'm watching it now 03:24:42 It's almost over 03:25:03 on the contrary, it's only just begun 03:41:46 hmm, torchwood is a pretty shoddy series 03:55:47 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:18:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:27:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:27:52 -!- augur has joined. 05:05:52 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:32:50 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 05:34:19 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 06:30:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:46:27 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:43:44 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:36:20 * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room <-- does it have a small shrine? 08:36:33 or a big one, even 09:06:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:26:23 -!- tombom has joined. 09:31:51 -!- Flonk has joined. 09:32:01 good morning. 09:37:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:52:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:11:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 10:11:34 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 10:11:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 10:44:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:48:24 -!- AnMaster has joined. 11:24:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:24:48 -!- augur has joined. 11:25:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:42:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:43:24 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:50:33 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:50:38 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:52:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:07:16 Sgeo! 13:07:29 Phantom_Hoover! 13:08:15 Still doing whatever it was you were doing? 13:09:38 You mean the project? 13:09:48 Yes. The Project. 13:10:04 It's live, but development is on hold while I wait for a testing environment 13:11:33 What does it *do*? 13:11:42 It's a game 13:12:02 A futuristic remake of an older game [now defunct] that was in the same environment 13:15:51 What older game? 13:18:04 you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems. 13:18:14 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation 13:18:15 why? 13:18:20 BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS 13:18:22 8D 13:18:23 augur, alise's Haskell? 13:18:27 yes. 13:18:32 alise's implementaiton. 13:18:37 Ah. In what? 13:18:48 you sure dont get the joke 13:20:48 * Sgeo gets the joke, but I assume "alise's" is just unnecessary 13:21:00 well 13:21:05 definitely not 13:21:11 its definite necessary 13:21:22 otherwise it'd be a pro-sex operating system 13:21:26 because of all the moan ads 13:21:35 I assume it's a play on "Monads", but I don't get where alise comes from. 13:21:50 Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing 13:21:56 jokes about "monad" and "nomad" 13:37:02 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:50:54 -!- Gregor has joined. 13:52:06 -!- derdon has joined. 14:02:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:08:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:13:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:18:24 "Another nasty problem arises if you use a mutable object, i.e., an object 14:18:24 that can change its hash value over time, as an element of a Set or as a key to 14:18:24 a Dictionary. Don’t do this unless you love debugging!" 14:18:34 Someone should make an esolang where that's no big deal 14:23:59 -!- augur has joined. 15:01:28 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:09:44 -!- relet has joined. 15:28:56 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:36:51 -!- tombom_ has joined. 15:38:31 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:46:47 -!- alise has joined. 16:46:53 cellophane illegal 16:47:01 Quod? 16:47:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:48:26 pikhq: et establishum 16:48:43 -!- Behold has joined. 16:49:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:49:52 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:50:44 alise: Malkompren' 16:51:01 And now, we're going to play a track from Cellophane Illegal's new album, "Et Establishum". It's called "Malkompren'"... enjoy. 16:51:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:51:17 :D 16:51:31 cpressey: actually, those /are/ awesome band and album names ... 16:51:36 They are. 16:51:52 I know! 16:53:06 "This track is 7:06 long, which is the same as SIX MINUTES AND SIXTY-SIX SECONDS. And if you play it backwards, it sounds like 'Malkompren'', a song by Cellophane Illegal, a band known to be Satanists -- one of their tracks is 6 minutes and 66 seconds long. Coincidence? You decide." 16:54:52 pikhq: Apparently, fast images in Super Hi-Vision may cause motion sickness. 16:55:04 This source is Gizmodo via NHK, so credibility is, uh, zero. 16:55:27 I'd trust NHK, but not Gizmodo... 16:55:44 However, I suggest that this is bullshit. 16:55:44 pikhq: I said NHK because of the language barrier. 16:55:53 Erm. 16:55:55 NHK via Gizmodo. 16:56:05 i.e., NHK said it, Gizmodo fucked with it until it sounded hyperbolic. 16:57:11 It's just 4320p; *effectively* the same resolution as analog IMAX. 16:57:37 (of course, comparing digital and analog video when both are high-quality is fairly subjective) 16:57:46 Incidentally, Toy Story 3 is good. 16:58:01 It's a Pixar film. 16:58:20 Yes. Yes it is. 16:58:34 It was Touched by the Holy Hand of His Holiness Steve. 17:00:25 May I present Exhibit A? 17:00:42 Sure. 17:00:46 Barbie: Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from threat of force! 17:01:02 LMAO 17:01:12 (No, Barbie is nothing like this in it for anything other than this one line.) 17:03:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:04:28 hi ais523 17:05:47 hi alise 17:08:08 [Five-Minute "Threshold"] 17:08:09 Janeway: This event will stand with some of the most memorable in history. 17:08:09 Paris: Yeah. Wilbur Wright...Neil Armstrong...Zephram Cochrane ... 17:08:09 Janeway: I was thinking "Spock's Brain"..."Shades of Gray"..."Let He Who is Without Sin..."... 17:15:36 alise: :D 17:16:58 So the one flaw of my lovely laptop is that it is not powerful enough to decode 1080p. I think 720p slows it down a bit too. 17:18:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:18:35 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 17:20:51 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:21:00 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 17:21:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:22:46 * alise downloads "All Good Things..." from that uber-high-quality rip of TNG to review the quality. THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE IMPORTANT! 17:23:16 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 17:23:28 Hello Gregor-Urine. 17:23:41 * alise mature 17:23:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:24:38 ... wow 17:25:02 alise: If it is absolutely super-awesome, then glee. 17:25:08 BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS 17:25:19 * oerjan whacks augur with the saucepan ===\__/ 17:26:34 pikhq: It has a downside, though. Wesley, too, will be in high-definition. 17:27:04 alise: As will beardless Riker. 17:27:06 *shudder* 17:27:29 pikhq: Yes, but you can avoid him more than you can avoid Wesley. 17:27:51 This is ridiculous, how can two episodes be 1.6 GiB? 17:27:57 Why am I not downloading at a greater speed? >_> 17:28:18 Let's see how well mplayer can play partial files. 17:28:22 Best thing about moving back to CO: REAL. GOD. DAMNED. INTERNET. 17:28:29 Speed? 17:28:29 And mplayer can play partial files very well. 17:28:40 This is America, so let me guess: 3 Kb/s, on a good day? 17:28:57 I think it's sitting at about 40 megabits/sec. 17:29:06 ...Oh, the uploader merged "All Good Things..."'s two parts. 17:29:15 So I was downloading Preemptive Strike, too. 17:29:21 in CO, god is real, but the internet is damned 17:29:27 good to know. 17:29:31 * pikhq tests 17:29:37 pikhq: Whfuck you. 17:29:44 (1) Fuck you all I have is 8 Mb 17:29:49 (2) I'm moving in see you soon brb plane 17:30:29 Is there a ... takeWhileFold? 17:30:35 e.g., "take while sum < 3" 17:30:57 takeWhileFold (+) (< 3) lst 17:32:05 um what's tested the sum or the list values 17:32:16 oh hm 17:32:30 oh and what's returned, for that matter 17:33:20 oh with 0 in there too 17:33:41 obviously there is no single such predefined functino 17:33:46 basically we see if "fold[rl] (+) 0 [] < 3" fits, else sub "take 1 lst" for [] 17:33:54 else sub "take 2 lst" 17:33:55 etc 17:33:55 mm 17:34:32 alise: can you give an actual _example_, your explanation is not clear 17:35:07 well 17:35:15 takeWhile tries [], take 1 lst, take 2 lst, take 3 lst, ..., lst 17:35:24 * oerjan swats alise -----### 17:35:26 until "condition (take N lst)" satisfies 17:35:30 _no_ explanation. 17:35:34 then returns that list 17:35:38 i want an example with actual _output_ 17:35:43 oerjan: okay 17:36:14 takeWhileFoldl (+) 0 (< 10) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10] 17:36:18 yields [1,2,3,4] 17:36:22 ok 17:36:24 because foldl (+) 0 [1,2,3,4] == 10 17:37:04 um don't you mean [1,2,3] 17:37:22 10 is not < 10, after all 17:37:31 er, right 17:38:31 erm, what's the thing for "all but last element" again? 17:38:43 init 17:39:03 hmm, that doesn't actually help here 17:39:15 this is quite a subtle function, it involves sending information back across recursions 17:39:28 if you want to make that function actually _lazy_, then it's probably best to write it directly... 17:40:08 mm 17:40:51 mmmmmemoize 17:41:00 hmm, what do I need to get RandomGen? 17:41:05 didn't it use to be in prelude? 17:41:16 System.Random 17:41:24 thanks 17:44:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:45:39 takeWhileFoldl op acc p (x:xs) | p acc = x : takeWhileFoldl op (acc `op` x) p xs; takeWhileFoldl _ _ _ _ = [] 17:45:44 alise: btw, did you know that seq, much like the CAKE, is a LIE???!? 17:45:55 cpressey: In that it doesn't do deep sequencing? 17:45:58 oh wait no 17:46:10 oerjan: I obtained this: 17:46:12 takeWhileFoldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> (a -> Bool) -> [b] -> [b] 17:46:12 takeWhileFoldl f _ _ [] = [] 17:46:13 takeWhileFoldl f z c (x:xs) 17:46:13 | c (f z x) = x : takeWhileFoldl f (f z x) c xs 17:46:13 | otherwise = [] 17:46:50 yeah i forgot to use acc `op` x in the test 17:47:26 the first and last lines can still be combined like i did 17:48:43 grr, how do you show a Rational as a decimal again? 17:48:46 alise: seq is a lie in two ways: (1) in the absence of either of its arguments being "undefined", it's semantically a NOP. (2) even in practice, a Haskell implementation could evaluate its arguments in a different order, e.g. if it thought it that reduction ordering was more efficient 17:49:10 oerjan filled me in on this LIE yesterday :) 17:49:18 also giving f z x a name may help 17:49:22 (1) of course 17:49:25 (2) of course 17:51:16 alise: fromRational to get a Double? >:) 17:51:56 indeed ... 17:52:09 *Main> fmap fromRational (approxE 10000) 17:52:10 1.723 17:52:11 that's not e. 17:54:25 in fact, it seems to be approximating e-1. 17:54:26 Or, not. 17:54:39 !haskell exp (-1) 17:54:41 0.36787944117144233 17:55:00 Also, I think I have to disagree with, or at least modify, the characterization of monads yesterday. They do *in practice* force an evaluation order, even if they do it *by* imposing an order on data flow. Maybe it's not true for some weird or trivial monads out there -- but those would be the exceptions. 17:55:19 cpressey: no, actually 17:55:20 a lot of useful monads are lazy 17:55:21 cpressey, you know lists are monads, right? 17:55:22 list, for example 17:55:25 lazy state 17:55:31 Phantom_Hoover: no, lists aren't monads 17:55:32 [] is a monad 17:55:58 OK, then I still don't understand them. No surprise. 17:56:01 Isn't >>= defined for lists? 17:56:40 cpressey: monads force an order of _effects_. even in IO, evaluation of pure values is not always forced. 17:57:11 Phantom_Hoover: >>= is defined for [] a. 17:57:15 !haskell do x <- return undefined; print "No evaluation of x here" 17:57:15 But if it *is* forced, it's going to happen in the order that the monad establishes. Right? 17:57:22 cpressey: maybe you'd have more luck reading the theoretical definition 17:57:26 "No evaluation of x here" 17:57:28 alise: NO THANK YOU 17:57:33 Tried that 17:57:53 cpressey, the theoretical definition says nothing about evaluation order. 17:58:56 Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't say anything about evaluation 17:59:02 cpressey: Pfft. Philistine! 17:59:03 # 17:59:09 s/#/just delete the damn line/ 17:59:09 cpressey: Only specific monads say anything at all about evaluation. 17:59:11 alise, hence it says nothing about evaluation order. 17:59:53 It says nothing about turnips either. 18:00:02 alise, exactly 18:00:02 !haskell do x <- return undefined; putStr "No evaluation of x here; "; putStr (show x); putStr " we never get to here though" 18:00:10 No evaluation of x here; *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 18:00:17 But cpressey is not talking about turnip monads. 18:00:30 !haskell [] >>= undefined 18:00:39 [] 18:00:49 I find that very odd... 18:01:19 !haskell concatMap undefined [] 18:01:20 [] 18:01:24 Ah, makes sense now. 18:01:32 Well, [] >>= _ = [] 18:01:37 = _ = 18:01:41 Phantom_Hoover: the undefined function never gets any arguments passed, so never needs to be evaluated 18:01:46 It is not happy about appearing there. 18:01:56 (rather than, y'know, [] >>= x = x `seq` [] -- or some such) 18:02:20 oerjan, got that, but I didn't know that undefined :: (b -> m a) worked. 18:02:27 Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running? 18:02:31 :t undefined 18:02:36 Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah; undefined :: a 18:02:37 !haskell :t undefined 18:02:37 i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA? 18:02:38 undefined :: a 18:02:49 pikhq, didn't realise that applied to functions as well. Do now. 18:02:57 Functions possess types. 18:03:00 What I don't understand is the use case for writing a monad which does not establish an order. What does a "lazy state" monad do, except save you from an explicit additional argument to your function? In that, using a monad is a lot like writing pointfree code (a practice with which I do not often agree.) 18:03:04 Hence, a includes functions. 18:03:38 cpressey: It saves you from an explicit additional argument to your set of functions. 18:03:48 That is the entire point of the State monad. 18:04:00 Riker: Hey baby, what's your sign? 18:04:03 Troi: You've known me for twelve years. Will, I know you care about me, but... well.... 18:04:03 Riker: Well what? 18:04:03 Troi: It's your beard. It just isn't sufficient anymore. 18:04:03 Riker: WHAT? 18:04:03 Worf: In case you can't tell, Commander, I'm grinning. But it's hard to see that through my thick, thick beard. 18:04:12 cpressey: Some code utilising lazy State would be hideously ugly without it. 18:05:43 alise: Not really a compelling argument. How much of that is the 'do' sugar? 18:06:10 cpressey: Not much at all. 18:06:26 When you're just calling other functions that use that state and don't mutate it yourself, it helps a lot because you can completely elide it. 18:06:30 cpressey: The do sugar is really, really thin. 18:06:42 When you're mutating state inamongst other calls, it isolates this change, rather than making you e.g. pass state' instead of state around everywhere. 18:08:07 About the only thing that's even vaguely "thick" is that pattern matches get a "_ -> fail" case added... 18:08:07 Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running? 18:08:08 i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA? 18:08:10 alise: When not using monads, when you calling some other function that doesn't use that state, you just don't include that explicit argument. 18:08:11 Anyone know? 18:08:21 pikhq: Whoa, they do? I didn't realise. 18:08:25 alise: Yeah. 18:08:35 cpressey: That DO use state, I said. 18:08:54 pikhq: Now answer my ALSA question :P 18:08:55 Sorry, misread. 18:09:03 alise: If you have mixing enabled in ALSA, *yes*. 18:09:12 (either hardware mixing or dmix) 18:09:21 pikhq: Is it enabled by default if I have PulseAudio in a typical crapbuntu setup? 18:09:33 alise: Ubuntu should have dmix by default, yes. 18:09:41 Even if it's a PulseAudio stack? 18:09:45 Yes. 18:09:56 Actually, I think ALSA now just makes dmix on by default... 18:10:08 Okay, two new questions: 18:10:17 (1) How do I disable ALSA's redirection? I've forgotten what file it's in. 18:10:29 (2) What's the best/quickest/etc. ao/vo for mplayer? 18:10:37 -ao sdl seems pretty good, but what about -vo? 18:10:52 Using built-in Intel sound and video cards. 18:10:55 Dunno, -ao alsa or -ao oss or -ao sdl, and -vo gl or -vo xv 18:11:23 SDL must necessarily be worse than ALSA/OSS, yeah, because it outputs there? 18:11:48 I wonder with vo is default. 18:11:50 *which vo 18:12:06 Probably something like -vo x11 18:12:12 Or -vo xv or -vo gl 18:12:27 * pikhq goeth to shower 18:13:03 ISTR -vo gl being slow. 18:13:32 "-vo xv" is good if it works. 18:13:38 Hardware colorspace conversions and so on. 18:13:43 (And scaling.) 18:14:01 But for just straight playback? And could it possibly "work" without actually... working? 18:14:06 You know, emulating it somehow. 18:14:08 Uh, I'm tired. 18:14:41 I... guess it could, but I think usually if Xv is supported, it's supported mostly on hardware. 18:14:55 Well, it works; *should* it work, on this built-in Intel card? 18:15:06 Sure, sure. At least most likely. 18:15:38 On NVIDIA cards, there's the (old) xvmc and (new) vdpau stuff to move even the video stream decoding, and IDCT, and other such stuff, on hardware; but I have no idea how (and if) that's supported on Intel graphics and Linux. 18:16:03 Probably not. 18:16:21 These GPUs are... not the most powerful. 18:17:42 Okay; how do I make ALSA reload its config? 18:18:04 Also, I guess "xvinfo" will tell you mostly what the hardware supports, if you're curious. 18:18:23 And I was under the impression that all libalsa-using processes read the .asoundrc fluff on startup, and that's about it. 18:19:03 /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf. 18:19:06 More a server configuration file. 18:22:10 Can someone please tell me exactly ONE reason not to remove PulseAudio and just use ALSA+dmix? 18:22:48 Some idiot feels that adding a layer of abstraction for no benefit is a good idea. 18:23:04 Indeed. 18:23:26 I'm just shocked that so many people clamour to bundle this technology which does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR YOU, AT ALL into their distributions. 18:23:30 What does PA actually /do/? 18:23:33 Even X11 does more. 18:23:47 Phantom_Hoover: Takes audio in. Mixes it together. Sends it off to ALSA or some other device, which can already mix audio. 18:24:06 Okay, it can also do EQ and stuff on the audio. Which, you know, is totally unnecessary as everything that you'd want to EQ can already do EQ. 18:24:10 Apart from that? 18:24:16 Takes up RAM and disk. 18:24:23 Umm... that's it. 18:25:12 In fact, the role of PulseAudio in a typical Ubuntu user's life is akin to that of Ubuntu One's: annoying and pointless. 18:25:47 As such, I will hereby remove both. 18:26:12 ubuntu is heavy 18:26:22 Good word. 18:27:33 It can also do things like networked audio, but your regular user won't have much use for that. 18:27:55 pikhq: Projects for an Insane Man And/Or Woman Who Inexplicably Wishes to Make Linux Slightly Better: (1) Develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck. (2) Develop an independent libX11 implementation exclusively for (1) that sucks... well, less. (Optionally libxcb, too, although nothing uses that.) (3) Develop a sound system that doesn't suck. Uh, you could just use OSSv4. 18:27:57 It has a convenient interface for per-process volume controlling. 18:28:15 Deewiant: That's nice. If only it didn't make everything else suck. 18:28:33 Such as latency (really really really sucks for some hardware), not-having-a-bloated-piece-of-shit-running-ness, ... 18:28:35 alise, is there anything you don't think sucks? 18:28:45 It is getting *really* tiresome. 18:28:46 It mixes my audio without causing sound quality problems like ALSA did by default (and I couldn't find a way to fix). 18:28:47 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. It's just not very interesting to talk about. 18:29:03 alise, neither are things you think sucks. 18:29:07 s/sucks/suck/ 18:29:09 Phantom_Hoover: You don't say things when I talk about things I like. Presumably because they don't annoy you, so you don't think to say anything. 18:29:31 I believe I speak of things that suck probably less than you think. 18:30:12 (Nor do you complain to other people who complain things suck, e.g. pikhq and cpressey, although their complaints usually happen after I make one.) 18:30:35 Anyway, I find /your/ complaints, about my complaints, annoying too. 18:31:50 Well, I find your complaints about my complaints about your complaints annoying. 18:32:05 Delightful. 18:32:54 No, better. I have complaints about your complaints about my complaints about your complaints. 18:33:22 Now why do I lack asoundconf(1) ... 18:34:22 By default, asoundconf's configuration file is ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf 18:34:23 and must be included in ~/.asoundrc. Open this file to make sure it is! 18:34:23 What. 18:36:15 # Specify default video driver (see -vo help for a list). 18:36:16 # vo=xv,x11 18:36:18 Alright then. 18:37:31 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:38:40 Deewiant: There was something I was going to say to you. I've been /wii'ing you a couple of times to see if you happened to be around. 18:39:16 Is wiiing an effective way of seeing whether Deewiant is around? 18:39:18 I'm usually around, I just haven't said much on freenode recently 18:39:22 Does he appear in the wii? :| 18:40:51 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:41:12 I wrote a program it does not work with Windows named pipes, but it works with UNIX named pipes if it is compiled with Cygwin. 18:41:37 zzo38, very good. 18:42:09 And I don't know how to develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck. 18:42:30 zzo38, this is alise-suck, which is a nebulous concept. 18:43:23 I think Phantom_Hoover has some sort of automatic system whereby he automatically likes everything I dislike and automatically ignores anybody concurring with me. 18:43:56 alise, I'm not saying it doesn't suck, only that I'm not entirely sure how you define suckiness. 18:44:08 Alright then. 18:44:16 zzo38: It shouldn't suck by not sucking. 18:44:40 alise: That doesn't help, because I still don't know how to develop accelerated graphics server, anyways. 18:44:55 Gah, anyone know how to get the old ALSA mixer in the Ubuntu panel? 18:45:03 The new-fangled one only does Pulse. 18:45:07 Deewiant: Well, you had "Work" and then "Going home" (or some-such) as away messages. 18:45:19 Deewiant: On the other hand, I have no longer any clue what it was I was going to say. 18:45:44 It helps to just say it and wait, perhaps hours, for an answer 18:47:24 ALSA Gnome panel applet in Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic 18:47:25 yay 18:47:30 i386 18:47:31 nay 18:48:22 Whoa. I used the Pulse volume control and my GTK reverted to Raleigh. 18:48:24 How does that work? 18:48:32 Oh, because I removed the applet. Uh. 18:48:34 How does that work? 18:48:47 Aaand now it's back apart from X-Chat. 18:50:43 Does "aptitude download" apply patches? 18:50:53 Er, never mind. 18:53:49 fizzie: Is there some straightforward way to ask C for an integer type that's the same size as a machine pointer for the architecture? (would be nice for what i'm doing, but i can also live without it) 18:54:28 intptr_t 18:54:30 C99 18:54:47 it's at least as big as a pointer 18:54:56 #include 18:55:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:55:04 uintptr_t is unsigned 18:55:25 hey what's the kosher way to build a debian package given its debian-patched source directory? 18:56:39 cpressey: Use sizeof() to check these things? 18:57:06 Like, sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5 18:57:09 zzo38: that was my backup plan. 18:57:30 There's that intptr_t, yes, though I think it's optionallish. Of course everyone with sensible pointers (and a big enough integer type) does provide it, since it's so easy. 18:57:42 if C89, might have to resort to that. 18:57:47 struct _check_sizes { int z[sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5]; }; 18:58:20 Compile-time asserts like that are always so awesome. 18:58:49 will that actually be evaluated at compile time? 18:59:02 cpressey: Yes it will be evaluated at compile tile 18:59:06 s/tile/time/ 19:00:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:00:10 cpressey: I'd just use intptr_t. 19:00:13 Everything supports it. More or less. 19:00:25 0% [1 libart-2.0-dev 9506/75.8kB 12%] 19:00:36 It was going at some three thousand bytes per second. 19:00:37 Peculiar. 19:01:02 tile-based compilation 19:02:51 pikhq: Okay, my video is lagging. Or my audio. Severely. alsa/xv. mplayer. What. Why. 19:03:00 I'll probably go with defaulting to intptr_t, but making it configurable in the code gen. 19:03:05 Not an uber-high-quality file, either. 19:03:32 And asserting that it can hold an int and a ptr in the generated source 19:04:05 cpressey: What are you making now? 19:04:05 Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect. --mplayer 19:04:07 Hmm. 19:04:57 zzo38: O - this is for Eightebed. A "safe" language without GC. because Gregor said it couldn't be done :) 19:05:15 (I'm oversimplifying of course) 19:05:19 * Gregor-P yawns. 19:05:33 * Gregor-P heckles. 19:05:40 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:06:07 The following packages are BROKEN: 19:06:10 ubuntu-desktop 19:06:10 The following NEW packages will be installed: 19:06:10 libsdl1.2debian-alsa 19:06:10 The following packages will be REMOVED: 19:06:10 libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio{a} 19:06:11 BROKEN! 19:06:13 I am violating the Holy Creed. 19:06:20 Die, Pulseau 19:06:26 *Die, PulseAudio! Die! 19:06:56 hmm, it's a strong dependency, not a recommendation? 19:06:59 99.99%, yet it refuses to believe the torrent is completed. 19:07:02 45 seconds at ... heh, this is fun. 19:07:04 ais523: yes 19:07:07 ais523: all of ubuntu-desktop is 19:07:13 ubuntu-desktop does nothing, of course 19:07:16 used to be, but I thought they changed it 19:07:23 except install more useless crap ubuntu adds each upgrade 19:08:28 Write a different distribution if you don't like it...... (I don't particularly like Ubuntu either) 19:12:41 zzo38: Yeah, uh, not that easy. 19:12:46 It's easier to complain. 19:12:52 pikhq: Could that rescaling be slowing down mplayer? 19:13:21 Yes it is easier to complain probably, but one day if I get new computer, I like to write Linux distribution, too (I must have told you that before?). 19:14:40 Yeah, a few times. 19:17:42 -!- calamari has joined. 19:17:52 hi 19:17:57 What this world needs is more distributions with near-0 userbases. 19:18:04 Also HI 19:18:59 Nullix, the POSIX compatible OS with _no_ users. also, no copies. 19:21:59 http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg 19:22:40 I write Linux distribution because I want to do so, in order to make it improvment in the way that is in my opinion. And then maybe some other people can use or maybe not 19:24:29 debian/rules:18: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk: No such file or directory 19:24:29 /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: overriding commands for target `get-orig-source' 19:24:30 /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: ignoring old commands for target `get-orig-source' 19:24:30 make: *** No rule to make target `/usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk'. Stop. 19:24:30 dpkg-buildpackage: error: fakeroot debian/rules clean gave error exit status 2 19:24:32 What ... 19:24:35 Gregor, can't remember whether I asked.. did you root your phone? 19:24:46 Yeah 19:24:58 Gregor, got debian working without a chroot, it was very easy, dunno what my problem was before 19:25:13 err dpkg/apt 19:25:21 Schweet 19:25:43 Put that shtuff on the Market! 8-D 19:25:46 Window manager shall include taskbar with clock, tiling and floating windows, background can be solid color or background picture (the background picture must be non-animated and the same size as the screen, because stretch is not available), and not much else other than many keyboard functions and mouse chording to manipulate windows and signals. (The taskbar needs only the list of windows open and the time, nothing else) 19:25:52 so that should make it easier for me to finish the egobf package, since I don't have to deal with bionic now 19:26:07 Gregor, not going to pay $25 for that, sorry! 19:26:23 which phone do you have? 19:26:24 And if you have multiple screens, you can change the taskbar color and background color on each one 19:26:51 calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P 19:26:59 calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P 19:27:02 Errr 19:27:03 go for it 19:27:10 calamari: Samsung Moment 19:27:20 Erm 19:27:28 cool that's what a friend of mine just got too 19:27:29 Why can't calamari just publish an .ipkg? Or whatever they are. 19:27:30 .ipk. 19:27:34 apk 19:27:46 Certainly he can. 19:27:52 I could 19:28:22 Putting it on the Market is just a convenience. 19:28:37 lol.. a package that is a glorified shell script 19:29:02 Gregor, what's in your $PATH? 19:29:35 calamari: A distinct inability to paste into IRC ;) 19:29:37 I have been running cyanogenmod so long I have lost touch with the real world 19:29:49 Gregor, AndChat ftw 19:30:08 AndChat ftf 19:30:28 okay i gotta try this out 19:30:37 could swear I pasted in it before 19:31:24 -!- calamari- has joined. 19:32:15 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:33:51 bash-4.1# echo $PATH 19:34:10 hrmm very strange 19:34:17 oh.. right.. slashes in irc are bad 19:34:46 ...... /usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/system/sbin:/system/bin:/system/xbin:/system/xbin 19:35:08 calamari, /say or just /. 19:35:28 what? 19:35:39 /see? 19:35:45 "//foo" sends "/foo". 19:35:50 "/say /foo" sends "/foo". 19:35:51 alise, thanks 19:35:51 /foo 19:36:19 Gregor-P: I'm selectively installing old versions of some Debian (well, Ubuntu) packages, then installing a patched version of an old package that depends on them. 19:36:22 This includes important GNOME libraries. 19:36:26 Am I insane, or doubly insane? 19:36:34 apparently not in andchat 19:36:36 Also, the final outcome of this insanity is ... a sound mixer. 19:36:49 calamari, /say? 19:37:16 say isn't a valid command for me 19:37:26 "//" might still work, though. Unless you tried that too. 19:37:37 that's okay.. the leading dot worked 19:37:43 leading spaces didn't 19:37:51 alise: Neither, I've done that before, usually works. 19:38:06 Gregor, anyhow.. do you have /datalocal/bin in your PATH? 19:38:13 Gregor-P: I'm pretty sure this is /downgrading some parts of GNOME to a lower release of GNOME/, though. 19:38:13 /data/local/bin 19:38:15 Actual *libraries*. 19:38:17 So I'm insane. 19:39:01 calamari: No. 19:39:03 Wow, pidgin sounds work now. 19:39:14 This is not a good thing. :P 19:39:19 must be cyanogenmod then 19:40:12 that's okay.. is /data mounted rw? 19:41:10 / /foo works on some clients too. 19:41:31 (But, again, probably not in that one.) 19:42:36 Maybe is a monad, isn't it? 19:43:21 Yep... 19:45:02 Very simple monad, too. 19:45:13 Only one simpler is Identity. 19:45:18 (Maybe without Nothing) 19:45:40 What is that actually /for/? 19:45:48 Maybe? 19:46:07 Simple failure handling. 19:46:16 No, Identity. 19:46:24 Of course I know what Maybe is for. 19:46:33 *Mostly* demonstrating a simple monad. 19:47:07 It could also hypothetically be the bottom part of a transformer stack if for some reason you wanted a monad as the bottom that doesn't have a non-transformer version. 19:47:33 We must tell cpressey... 19:47:57 I imagine monad transformers break his brain. 19:48:10 / 19:48:15 / 19:48:16 I don't know what they are either... 19:48:32 hmm space does work, not sure why it didn't before 19:48:35 calamari: Yes, and you need to highlight me to get my attention :P 19:48:38 It's a type constructor which takes a monad and results in a monad. 19:49:05 pikhq, well, that makes sense. 19:49:09 For instance, ContT is a monad transformer. ContT IO is a monad. 19:49:09 -!- calamari- has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:49:53 And StateT Cont is a time-travel monad. 19:50:12 (note: these are not exactly simple examples, except for demonstrating how one gets a monad out of monad transformers. :P) 19:50:14 In what sense? 19:50:38 Okay ... new volume control has unbelievably ugly icon. 19:51:25 Phantom_Hoover: With StateT Cont, the state in the StateT is *part* of the continuation. So, every time you use a continuation, you end up using the state in that continuation. 19:51:44 In effect, you are jumping forward and backwards in the computation when you use a continuation in StateT Cont. 19:53:37 (well, it's StateT s (Cont y), but that's just because, y'know, monads actually have values "in" them. :P) 20:00:07 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:04:08 Does anyone know the unending horror that is GNOME? 20:06:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:08:08 alise, as in, understand? 20:08:19 No, just ... be able to tell me how to replace a panel's icons. 20:08:33 Find the file it uses and change it? 20:08:42 Yes. The first bit is the bit I require assistance with. 20:09:32 /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/icons might be a place to start. 20:09:41 I know /that/ much. 20:09:50 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-medium-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-high-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-zero-panel.svg 20:09:53 etc 20:09:55 are the ones I need to replace. 20:09:58 I just need to find what I need to replcae the,. 20:10:34 No, wait. 20:10:36 Those are correct. 20:16:48 !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l -- now if this works on first try... 20:16:58 [9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0] 20:17:01 wow 20:17:35 except - those _shouldn't_ have been changing values D: 20:19:36 hm... 20:20:27 !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l 20:21:18 argh 20:22:00 Have you seen a chess puzzle game where you have to mate in infinity plus fifteen? 20:22:28 !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift $ callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then lift $ cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l 20:22:30 [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0] 20:22:33 hah! 20:23:05 WHAT THE FUCKKK 20:23:44 pikhq: apparently the callCC method for StateT Cont is defined in such a way that it preserves the state too. if i use an explicit lifted callCC from the underlying Cont monad instead, _then_ the state time-travels. 20:24:14 oerjan: StateT stores the state /outside/ the other monad, doesn't it? 20:24:23 just like StateT Parser doesn't backtrack the state 20:24:27 that's why Parsec needs its own state 20:24:38 ais523: you should fix my computer 20:24:49 alise: how is it broken? 20:25:23 ais523: inexplicably, no matter how many times I replace icons, my (installed from older version of gnome) mixer applet doesn't acknowledge these new icons 20:25:32 ais523: um i didn't think Parsec _needed_ its own user state, it was just convenient to include it with the rest it has to track... 20:25:32 and I cannot figure out why; perhaps it is requesting specifically .png, not .svg, but I doubt that 20:25:59 alise: the obvious conclusion is that Ubuntu has caught the recent icon vulnerability from Windows 20:26:11 also, where are you replacing the icons? 20:26:18 ais523: and _no_ state transformer can do anything "outside" the transformed monad 20:26:20 ais523: /usr/share/icons; I've tried Humanity, Humanity-Dark, ubuntu-mono-dark 20:26:21 none work 20:26:26 ais523, what vulnerability? 20:26:36 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 20:26:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:27:00 Phantom_Hoover: there was a hugely exploited vulnerability that was a bug in icon processing 20:27:08 although it was exploited indirectly via .pif and .lnk files 20:27:14 ais523, why would Ubuntu have it? 20:27:16 Microsoft issued an out-of-band patch on Monday 20:27:19 and it wouldn't, I was joking 20:27:51 oerjan: Still the timetravel monad. :) 20:28:11 Why do these things tend to happen to Windows? 20:28:41 *no monad transformer 20:28:50 Windows is badly designed 20:30:49 Well, I've heard that constantly, but why? 20:31:58 instance (MonadCont m) => MonadCont (StateT s m) where callCC f = StateT $ \s -> callCC $ \c -> runStateT (f (\a -> StateT $ \s' -> c (a, s'))) s 20:32:58 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Maybe because they are bad programmers and not opensource 20:33:33 Windows is horribly designed, and they don't update their BSD libraries that often. 20:33:42 it explicitly includes the StateT state in what's passed to the "underlying" continuation from the lower monad 20:34:13 oerjan: Soley to reduce the confusion caused by time travel, I'm sure. 20:34:18 yeah 20:35:21 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 20:37:09 how do you give the -vo driver options? 20:37:57 -vo driver:options:seperated:by:colons 20:38:33 BTW, -vo drivers,seperated,by,commas,listed,in,order,of,preference 20:39:11 Hey, libcaca plays the video at full speed just fine. 20:39:13 There's a solution. 20:39:20 I'll just get used to watching videos with libcaca. 20:39:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:40:01 Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect. 20:40:06 I'm *sure* that's what's slowing it down! 20:40:18 How can I disable scaling? 20:40:55 Ah, -noaspect. 20:40:59 Nope, still lagged. 20:41:09 pikhq: Okay, what? 20:41:16 WHY does Linux suck at AV so much? 20:41:42 * alise tries VLC in case mplayer is being stupid. 20:41:47 alise: What's the full mplayer command line? 20:42:15 pikhq: Anything! -ao sdl, -ao alsa, -vo xv, -vo sdl, -vo xv:somethingaboutcolorkeysorsomethingthatchangednothing 20:42:30 ... 20:42:34 Try -vo x11 20:42:45 I am sceptical that that will be quicker, but I will try. 20:42:47 If that works, your video card officially Sucks Ass. 20:42:55 Intel video doesn't suck that much. 20:43:08 It handles Compiz and all that jazz just fine, better than any other card on Linux due to its "open-sourceness". 20:43:26 $ mplayer -ao sdl -vo x11 "7.25 All Good Things….mkv" 20:43:27 Grumble... 20:43:32 ... Wait, you're running Compiz? 20:43:38 pikhq: -vo x11 is even worse. 20:43:42 Compiz hates video. 20:43:44 Yes. Won't the compositing /help/? 20:43:47 Hateshateshates. 20:44:01 If it were implemented well, perhaps. Compiz hateshateshates video. 20:44:11 I switched to Compiz without compositing. 20:44:27 Either my perception of mouths is broken, or it still doesn't help. 20:44:31 I'll enable Metacity compositing? 20:44:35 Is there a way to bypass the WM somehow? 20:44:49 Hmm. Without compositing it shouldn't matter at all. 20:45:00 Except that Metacity will be drawing shit itself? 20:45:16 Under X, how video is finally drawn depends largely on the X window manager in use. With properly installed drivers, and GPU hardware such as supported Intel, ATI, and nVidia chip sets, some window managers, called compositing window managers allow windows to be separately processed and then rendered (or composited). This involves all windows being rendered to separate output buffers in memory first, and later combined to form a complete graphical interfac 20:45:16 e. While in (video) memory, individual windows can be transformed separately, and accelerated video may be added at this stage using a texture filter, before the window is composited and drawn. XVideo can also be used to accelerate video playback during the drawing of windows using an OpenGL Framebuffer Object or pbuffer. 20:45:17 Metacity, an X window manager uses compositing in this way. The compositing can also make use of 3D pipelines accelerations such as GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap. Among other things, this process allows many video outputs to share the same screen without interfering with each other. Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing. 20:45:54 pikhq: I suggest that THIS SHIT SUCKS and what drivers might work well without X11? 20:46:00 Will fbdev be fast enough? 20:47:26 pikhq: Gah; can I have a test file to test A/V sync? 20:47:36 Like one that starts playing audio as soon as the screen turns from black to white? 20:47:41 Do you know of one? 20:48:40 pikhq: Apparently you need compositing for Xv to work properly? 20:49:37 Ξ Windows would so fix this. 20:52:05 "Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing" thanks guys 20:52:06 Why the xi? 20:52:08 alise: ... No, don't really need compositing for that. 20:52:16 * Phantom_Hoover rhymes 20:52:25 Well, it's "compositing", but it's absurdly naive 2D compositing. 20:52:30 pikhq: Okay. Now make it work. :| 20:52:33 And a decade and a half old. 20:52:38 Phantom_Hoover: I gotta name it /some/ Greek letter! 20:52:44 fbdev is actually very fast. 20:52:48 pikhq: My CPU is 1.33 GHz but it can _definitely_ decode this video. 20:52:52 pikhq: Yeah, but fbdev is still desynch'ed. 20:52:54 I suspect audio is the problem. 20:52:58 As Linux audio SUCKS. 20:53:12 I could just install OSSv4 but that sucks to do on Ubuntu. 20:53:13 ... Desync'd? That's definitely the audio layer's fault. 20:53:26 Mplayer is ridiculously good at AV sync. 20:53:29 Why are you discussing compositing WMs? 20:53:39 And HOW ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE WITH THIS 20:53:50 My God, man. I have never had problems with mplayer on Gentoo. 20:54:00 It just works on fucking *Gentoo*! 20:54:13 pikhq: Well, I only /just/ lobotomised Ubuntu by removing PulseAudio. 20:54:22 It came out with a higher IQ, but god knows how ALSA is configured. 20:54:23 my current only problems with audio are that sometimes after logging on it doesn't work 20:54:27 but it does if I log out and back in again 20:54:48 And of course, Gentoo's handling of things like audio involves using the default settings for ALSA. 20:54:56 (which just works) 20:55:10 Apart from being ALSA. 20:55:22 I have never had problems with it. 20:55:29 Well, apart from the API sucking. 20:55:33 Right, how about I just install OSSv4 and meditate. 20:55:43 Worth a shot. 20:55:44 Low latency, high quality, high sanity. 20:55:52 pikhq: The /last/ time I did this I Broke Everything and installed Arch. 20:56:12 * alise notes http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/05/perfect-sound-with-oss-version-4.html 20:57:06 I don't know if OSSv4 supports my card. 20:57:23 Intel High Definition Audio (Azalia) *BETA* 20:57:26 Well, that is reassuring. 20:59:25 ALISE 20:59:30 Are there actually any contexts in which one would use monady things on lists? 20:59:40 i am fairly sure i have today met the mother of my children 21:00:06 Phantom_Hoover: yes 21:00:18 What like? 21:00:37 Phantom_Hoover: stuff 21:00:44 Helpful. 21:01:00 Phantom_Hoover: it's ... uh, it's like prolog without cut and stuff 21:01:26 * Phantom_Hoover has forgotten what cut does 21:01:56 alise: list monads feel more like multithreading than backtracking 21:02:37 ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6) 21:02:53 er, that doesn't quite work 21:02:56 ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6); return (a,b) 21:04:11 ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ 21:04:32 What does guard do? 21:04:45 presumably monad-fails if the condition is false 21:05:35 yes 21:07:34 !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (const [False,True]) ['a'..'e'] 21:07:37 ["","e","d","de","c","ce","cd","cde","b","be","bd","bde","bc","bce","bcd","bcde","a","ae","ad","ade","ac","ace","acd","acde","ab","abe","abd","abde","abc","abce","abcd","abcde"] 21:08:18 what does filterM do? 21:08:45 it filters a list, in a monad ;D 21:08:55 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:10:39 !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 5, x >= 3]) [0..7] 21:10:57 hm... 21:11:17 !haskell "Boo!" 21:11:32 [[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2, 21:11:41 oerjan: looks like it worked, just was slow 21:11:56 did EgoBot just DCC you a wall of text? 21:12:13 _maybe_. iirc there's sometimes a bug that makes the output only happen on the _next_ command. 21:12:16 and no. 21:13:46 oh... 21:14:05 * oerjan misjudged the length of that list 21:14:05 pikhq: Greek Audio: You ask for a certain number of Hzes and bits. You send raw audio data over the channel. The end. 21:14:31 !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 3, x >= 3]) [0..4] 21:14:34 [[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[3],[3,4],[3],[3,4]] 21:16:45 * oerjan isn't sure he understands that one himself 21:22:35 "There had been a lot of very bad feeling around here about the way Tasha Yar was sent off. So we were determined to give Wesley a send-off that had real value and something that stayed with us. We finally decided that he would go to the Academy, which I think was Gene's idea [and] the most reasonable and easiest idea, which also keeps him alive for future episodes." 21:22:42 You know, everyone would have preferred you killed Wesley horribly. 21:23:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:24:23 yeah 21:24:27 yar was ok 21:27:08 is there any notable sci-fi that has large space ships be portrayed as political countries, rather than by analogy with sea-based vessels? 21:27:20 i've actually not seen it, unless i'm misremembering - which i tend to do when this tired 21:28:28 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) . filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5] 21:28:29 the ships would have to be pretty large mind 21:30:25 oh 21:30:37 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) $ filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5] 21:30:40 [[],[5],[3],[3,5],[2],[2,5],[2,3],[2,3,5],[4],[4,5],[3],[3,5],[3,3],[3,3,5],[3,4],[3,4,5],[1],[1,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,2],[1,2,5],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,5],[1,4],[1,4,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,3,3],[1,3,3,5],[1,3,4],[1,3,4,5]] 21:30:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:36:38 alise: Probably only sci-fi with sleeper ships. 21:37:12 When travel to port is going to take livable amounts of time, analogy with sea-based vessels kinda makes sense. 21:37:57 alise, the Culture, to a degree. 21:38:12 Inasmuch as the Culture has individual political units. 21:38:39 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah; something a little less abstract would be cool. 21:39:02 pikhq: Well, generation ships would probably be like countries. 21:39:24 At least, the thing I have filed for Would Be a Good Sci-Fi Show About a Generation Space Ship has it like that. 21:39:33 If only I could write. 21:39:35 alise: Ah, yes. Sleeper or generation ships are going to inherently be like countries. 21:39:53 Well, sleeper ships are more like *going to be* countries, but still. 21:40:09 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember if the Algebraist had anything similar. 21:40:13 Still, what about long-mission ships that can still travel large distances, but with a large number of crewmembers? I guess without a defined, "short-term" mission they don't exist. 21:40:39 pikhq: I don't see how sleeper ships would be like that. 21:40:44 They barely have any people. 21:40:49 (Conscious, that is.) 21:41:01 alise: The unconscious crews shall found a colony or some such. 21:41:12 Either that or they'll be back in 100 years, making it more naval. 21:41:26 alise, in hard SF generation ships would probably rarely interact. 21:41:35 And? 21:41:41 (well, "like" 100 years. Long time-span, but the point being that it's returning and the country may well exist in the end) 21:41:48 Politics exist even in a vacuum. Uh, or something. 21:41:59 pikhq: The unconscious crews won't do anything until they're off the ship. 21:42:05 Mmm, yeah. True. 21:42:08 At which point nothing they do changes how the ship is politically structured. 21:42:09 Well, why would it be portrayed as a country? 21:42:34 Phantom_Hoover: Because when you have thousands and thousands of personnel on board, you're going to have an awful lot of opinions, and probably quite a bit of crime. 21:42:46 Especially so on e.g. a generation starship, when people aren't specially selected -- not after the first generation, anyway. 21:42:53 *where people aren't 21:43:06 Another thought: why do so many sci-fi settings seem to try and have all the various settled planets under a single legal framework, regardless of speed of transit between them? 21:43:08 That means that anything with generation ships counts, then. 21:43:14 I'm looking at *you*, Enderverse. 21:43:22 pikhq: normally as a result of conflict 21:43:48 in Asimov's Foundation series, for instance, everywhere starts under a single political system and legal framework 21:43:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQp5l4-sfFA 21:43:50 !!! 21:43:53 and it all falls apart as the series goes on 21:43:54 everyone watch 21:44:07 (gah, slow-ass ships being the only means of transit, but a central government? I don't even know how that works *with* the ansible, much less without.) 21:44:23 pikhq, settlement is an extremely complex business, so it would make sense that only one organisation would be able to do it in any significant amount. 21:44:37 doesn't make sense that everyone would stay bound to that org forever 21:44:40 (Assuming superluminal movement.) 21:44:40 unless it was /really/ scary 21:44:48 ais523, I suppose. 21:44:51 Phantom_Hoover: And how do you maintain political bonds when it's subliminal movement? 21:45:08 pikhq, you don't. Does the Enderverse do that? 21:45:11 pikhq: are you assuming liminal communication as well as subliminal movement? 21:45:15 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 21:45:21 * Phantom_Hoover shudders 21:45:45 Phantom_Hoover: Well, superluminal movement does get invented several centuries in. 21:46:07 Phantom_Hoover: Also, it has instantaneous communication. 21:46:09 pikhq: Notably, Orson Scott Card isn't a very good writer. 21:46:24 Tau Zero was fairly good about the whole "governance in a closed environment" thing. 21:46:27 (...also a homophobe) 21:46:35 OTOH there were only around 50 people on the Leonora. 21:46:40 alise: I *like* his writing when it's not got anything to do with his religion. 21:46:55 It gets vomit-inducing when his religion is at all involved. 21:48:07 * Phantom_Hoover has never read any of OSC's stuff 21:48:13 a 21:48:24 alise, did you read the Culture series? 21:48:29 No. But I will. 21:48:34 I still need to figure out the chronology :^) 21:48:38 I had it written down, somewhere! 21:48:59 Well, I've read Inversions and LTW in the meantime. 21:49:01 Phantom_Hoover: He's a decent sci-fi author, but also a literal, honest-to-god fascist. 21:49:19 A Mormon fascist. 21:49:35 alise, LTW is definitely after Excession, and contains spoilers, but I don't think that affects thing. 21:49:44 s/thing/things/ 21:50:16 It's The State of the Art that matters most to me. The main story in it was published /before/ another novel, separately, though I forget which. 21:51:27 alise, TSOTA is before UOW, so read them consecutively. 21:52:13 1989; TSOTA was published 1989. 21:52:33 Player of Games comes after Consider Phlebas? 21:52:38 Yes. 21:53:09 There's a long-running dispute over which you should read first. I read CP first, and it didn't do me any harm. 21:53:20 Yeah, we talked about that. 21:53:35 I think I want absolute chronological order; equivalently, avoiding spoilers. 21:53:49 I can make the commitment to read past Consider Phlebas beforehand, so it can't possibly turn me off the series. 21:54:21 There are about 2 explicit spoilers I've ever encountered, excepting the outcome of the Idiran War, which hardly counts. 21:54:21 Which are the ones in TSOTA that are set in the culture? 21:54:26 A Gift from the Culture, Descendant? 21:54:34 And TSOTA. 21:54:39 Yes. 21:54:47 # "A Gift from the Culture" - originally published in Interzone #20, Summer 1987 with illustrations by SMS. 21:54:47 # "Descendant" - originally published in the anthology Tales from the Forbidden Planet, Roz Kaveney (ed.) 1987, Titan Books, ISBN 1-85286-004-9. 21:54:53 Awesome, 1987, a chronological hint. 21:55:04 So those two should be read before The State of the Art. 21:55:11 AGFTC is impossible to place within the internal chronology, BtW. 21:55:48 And Descendant after Gift, because Descendant was published October, while Gift was "Summer". 21:55:58 I should find Interzone #20's publication date. 21:56:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but publication order is a secondary measure. 21:56:23 Consider Phlebas 21:56:23 The Player of Games 21:56:23 A Gift from the Culture 21:56:23 Descendant 21:56:23 The State of the Art [novella] 21:56:24 Use of Weapons 21:56:25 alise, I'm pretty sure Descendant is chronologically before Gift. 21:56:25 Excession 21:56:27 Inversions 21:56:29 Look to Windward 21:56:31 Matter 21:56:33 Is this about right? 21:56:35 Phantom_Hoover: Oh? 21:56:37 I thought you said it was impossible. 21:56:42 alise, well, probably. 21:56:55 How can you tell? I don't mind minor spoilers; they're only short stories. 21:57:06 They probably aren't around the same time, because then Gift would have mentioned the Idiran War. 21:57:15 Gift could be before, I suppose... 21:57:29 Yeah, Gift can go whereever. 21:58:26 Well, what's your personal hunch? 21:58:31 Gift is before Idiran War? After? 21:58:36 That would be a start. (I am anal about this stuff.) 21:58:58 Probably after, since everything else is. 21:59:19 Much after, then, if you consider its not mentioning the Idiran War a hint? 21:59:31 As an aside -- is Descendant set before The Player of Games, then? 21:59:39 Yes. 21:59:59 Well, assuming it's set during the Idiran War, which seems pretty reasonable. 22:00:20 So I'll be reading a short story before my first "proper" (non-Phlebas) novel. How quaint. 22:00:28 Consider Phlebas 22:00:29 Descendant 22:00:29 The Player of Games 22:00:29 The State of the Art [novella] 22:00:29 Use of Weapons 22:00:29 Excession 22:00:31 Inversions 22:00:33 Look to Windward 22:00:35 Matter 22:00:37 Insert Gift somewhere, anywhere. 22:00:39 (But only in the right place!) 22:01:01 Go by publication date if you really need to make a meaningful decision. 22:01:17 I read the entirety of TSOTA after CP and UOW. 22:01:30 I couldn't find POG for ages. 22:01:59 Does TPOG mention the War much? 22:02:02 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:02:18 Not really. 22:02:22 You seem to imply that Gift unusually for something near the War doesn't, so perhaps I can figure it out by measuring how "fresh" the War is in the books. 22:02:24 Darn. 22:02:29 Oh well. 22:02:35 It mentions the outcome, but that's pretty obvious. 22:02:49 Phantom_Hoover: Now for the ultimate anality: 22:03:00 Which publications are best! 22:03:03 And CP doesn't even deal with the end of the war outside the appendix. 22:04:38 Large preference for hardback. Antipreference for large hardback. 22:04:42 Not that you'll know. At all. 22:06:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:06:19 alise, what are you even planning to use to get them? 22:07:15 The ... internet? 22:07:53 Well, I only have paperbacks of the weird abstract cover variety. 22:09:34 pikhq: Actually, things that operate *on* monads are a lot easier for me to comprehend than monads *themselves*. 22:09:45 "It, Robot: 1" is so badly-written. :( 22:09:53 If it wasn't for the rest of the Ed stories, it would be unforgivable. 22:10:03 cpressey, do you understand Maybe? 22:10:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:10:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 22:10:42 cpressey: Hah. 22:11:01 cpressey: Okay, you might gain comprehension using Identity or Maybe. 22:11:23 Identity: (Identity x) >>= f = f x; return x = Identity x 22:11:54 Maybe: Nothing >>= _ = Nothing 22:12:04 (Just x) >>= f = f x 22:12:17 return x = Just x 22:12:20 pikhq: Hey, do you know what TeX value I need to tweak to tell it not to create widows or orphans or whatever this one is (paragraphs with their last line on their own page)? 22:14:06 Underfull \vbox (badness 10000) has occurred while \output is active [3] 22:14:07 Hm. 22:14:31 No, I don't. 22:14:47 Darn. 22:15:01 Okay, do you know of any simple script I can tweak that will just match "..." dammit and replace them with ``...''? 22:15:09 Sure, I could write one myself, but I forget the rules to determine start/end. 22:15:10 cpressey, does that help? 22:16:35 you gotta do the cooking by the book! 22:17:04 non sequitur culinaris 22:17:19 alise: No, but I'd love one. 22:17:57 pikhq: I mean, it's basically word-boundary (start of line or space)" -> ``, non-word-boundary -> ''. 22:18:07 But this is a bitch to do via a regexp. Here, I volunteer you go and write one, and I'll. 22:18:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:19:18 Phantom_Hoover: You're creepin' me out. 22:19:29 Why? 22:19:53 -!- jcp has joined. 22:20:03 wtf alise 22:20:20 hello [^:word:] 22:20:27 hello [^\W] ?? 22:20:36 or even [^\w] ?? 22:21:06 (^| )"=\1``|"='' 22:21:11 go Cyclexa 22:21:56 alise: it's not massively hard via /two/ regexps, incidentally 22:22:11 ais523: Perhaps not, but Perl et al seem to have a fucked up definition of word boundaries that make it always break. 22:22:13 use one to replace " with `` where necessary, the other to replace the remaining " with '' 22:22:20 I'd be glad to see your regexp. 22:22:52 "Since, in most Smalltalk environments, the execution stack is a first-class citizen, coroutines can be implemented without additional library or VM support. 22:22:53 " 22:23:05 s/(?:^| )\K"/``/g; s/"/''/g; 22:23:08 there you go 22:23:10 Thanks Wikipedia, for telling me it can be done, but not giving me the slightest clue how 22:23:42 ais523: does that work with #!perl -p, I wonder? 22:23:59 Yes, it does. I think. 22:24:50 ais523: So "s/(?:^| )\K-\K(?:$| )/--/g;" for a - on its own, or what? 22:25:03 \K twice makes no sense 22:25:15 it means "don't substitute anything before this point in a s/// expression" 22:25:25 ah 22:25:53 s/(^| )-( |$)/$1--$2/g; 22:25:54 then 22:26:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:26:41 brb 22:27:17 Phantom_Hoover: You seem overly concerned about whether I "understand monads" or not. 22:27:29 cpressey, it's part of the Plan. 22:27:44 You're more susceptible to the Device if you understand monad. 22:27:51 s/ad/ads/ 22:32:23 * Phantom_Hoover notes that there's another Culture book coming out in October. 22:34:11 i gotta read more of those 22:34:14 i liked the ones i did read 22:34:21 /o/ 22:34:22 | 22:34:22 |\ 22:34:23 also: the names of the ships :D 22:34:32 myndzi, indeed. 22:34:48 Which ones, then? 22:35:27 i don't remember :) 22:35:32 whichever ones were at the used book store 22:36:31 consider phlebas, i think 22:36:33 and another one 22:36:35 myndzi, any ship names you can remember? 22:36:51 i believe i have inversions but i haven't read it yet 22:37:04 nah, honestly i don't remember all that much about either of them 22:37:11 i have a shitty memory that way 22:37:43 i could list them when i get home if you are particularly interested or something :P 22:38:20 _o_ 22:38:20 | 22:38:20 |\ 22:38:31 \o\ /o/ \o\ 22:38:31 | | ¦ 22:38:31 /< /'\ ´¸¨ 22:38:34 lol 22:38:36 i forgot about that 22:39:17 \o/o/ 22:39:48 /o/o/o/ 22:39:55 that's odd, it should have detected one of those at least i'd think 22:40:03 maybe flood protection or something 22:40:13 \o/o/ 22:40:16 huh 22:40:17 * oerjan is sure he recalled some bug involving something like that 22:40:27 \o\\ 22:40:27 | 22:40:27 >\ 22:40:35 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 22:40:38 hm maybe 22:40:38 it may be some regex failure on my part 22:40:46 \o\\o\ 22:40:46 | | 22:40:46 /| /< 22:40:49 /o// 22:40:49 | 22:40:49 /´\ 22:40:50 i don't think so though 22:40:52 /o/ 22:40:52 | 22:40:52 /| 22:40:57 /o/o 22:40:58 since the regex for that one is pretty simple 22:41:08 hm... 22:41:12 _o_o_o_ 22:41:13 /o/a 22:41:19 _o_o_o_ 22:41:19 oh 22:41:21 i know what it is 22:41:34 It ignores if there's a non /\_ character after the arm. 22:41:36 i modified the regex to help avoid things like urls with _o_ in them 22:41:37 | 22:41:37 /< 22:41:48 oh 22:41:50 so it has a \w check now 22:41:57 then that may have been after the bug 22:42:10 probably, it was a pretty recent change 22:42:13 YOU RUINED THE BUG 22:42:16 lol 22:42:37 there, i took the \w check out 22:42:41 \o/o/ 22:42:41 ¦ 22:42:41 ´¸¨ 22:42:48 _o_o_o_ 22:42:48 | | 22:42:48 >\/| 22:42:52 lots of guys stepping on landmines these days 22:42:55 haha that's awesome 22:43:12 it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_O)/' 22:43:14 thar's the bug 22:43:15 well 22:43:17 it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_o)/' 22:43:22 failure, maybe it is a bug 22:43:38 o_o 22:43:44 o_o_o 22:43:44 | 22:43:44 /< 22:43:55 i am so confused right now 22:44:00 dance of the mutants 22:44:14 and honestly, i do not want to debug this: /((?]|([.·oº])_Â?(?!\2)[.·oº]|ಠ‿ರೃ)/gS 22:44:14 ¯|¯⌠ 22:44:14 /| | 22:44:28 or rewrite it for that matter 22:44:34 /o/ 22:44:34 | 22:44:34 /< 22:44:49 o_o_o o_o_o o_o_o 22:44:52 haha 22:44:55 \o/ 22:44:55 | 22:44:56 >\ 22:45:07 the o_o thing is for the funky faces 22:45:08 /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ 22:45:08 | | | | 22:45:08 |\ |\ /´\ /| 22:45:18 (._º) 22:45:19 | 22:45:19 |\ 22:45:33 i could swear it should pick up (o_o) 22:45:35 but it doesn't 22:45:40 (O_o) 22:46:00 (._o) 22:46:00 | 22:46:00 >\ 22:46:05 must be a failure of the first regex 22:46:08 (o) 22:46:15 i wonder if they differ somehow 22:46:16 _o_ 22:46:16 | 22:46:16 >\ 22:46:21 /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ 22:46:21 | | | | 22:46:21 /'\ /`\ /| |\ 22:46:26 /o/ 22:46:27 | 22:46:27 >\ 22:46:27 /o/ 22:46:27 | 22:46:27 /< 22:46:31 ais523: what's the perl to slurp all of stdin? 22:46:36 ah 22:46:37 or "stdin + arguments", that thing 22:46:37 they do 22:46:43 they can't be the same character 22:46:48 interesting 22:46:49 alise: undef $/; 22:46:50 ais523: just all of stdin in one string 22:46:55 means that Perl won't consider anything a line separator 22:46:56 ais523: nononono, the way that doesn't hurt babies 22:47:08 {local $/; $stdin=<>;} 22:47:11 bug should be fixed 22:47:13 _o_o_ 22:47:21 see, as long as you let no babies between the braces, you should be fine 22:47:38 dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}' 22:47:38 A monad is a pair of higher-order functions which encapsulate the pattern of passing extra parameters between the functions to which they are applied. 22:47:38 Hmm. 22:47:41 THERE. 22:47:42 i think i used something like $_ = join <>, '' somewhere 22:47:49 s/.../\ldots{}/g; 22:47:50 Whoops. 22:47:54 If you want it more readable, ... join it like that. 22:47:54 oerjan: that removes all newlines 22:47:59 !show slashes 22:47:59 perl (sending via DCC) 22:48:05 $_ = join <>, $/; 22:48:11 would add whatever the newline char at the time was 22:48:18 (and as a bonus, $/ is shorter than "\n") 22:48:23 !show slashes 22:48:23 perl (sending via DCC) 22:48:29 $_ = join '', <>; it was 22:48:41 ais523: Yo, ais523, your regexp is crampin' my style 22:48:43 I knew I'd eventually understand it. 22:48:47 s/

/\n\n/g; 22:48:47 s/<\/p>//g; 22:48:48 and that most definitely doesn't remove the newlines 22:48:50 !show pi 22:48:51 This makes it replace all quotes with `` 22:48:51 sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\' 22:48:54 if I put it before your regexp, man 22:49:06 What's up wit dat, duude. 22:49:19 alise: well, obviously 22:49:19 ais523: oh, does $/ break ^ in regexp? :D 22:49:22 ^ matches the start of a line 22:49:27 obviously why? 22:49:28 indeed 22:49:31 or the start of a string 22:49:37 add the /m flag at the end of the regex 22:49:39 and it'll match newlines 22:49:43 and things like "abc" at the start of

-lines that become "-starting-lines, the " gets replaced with `` 22:50:07 Hmm, it works now. 22:51:45 Anyone know any nice typewriter-y fonts? Not necessarily monospaced, just the kind of thing that /looks/ typewritery/terminaly. 22:51:45 Of course, feel free to tell me I'm still wrong. 22:51:53 To set the monospaced portion of http://qntm.org/dropout. 22:52:31 alise: Something actually typewriter-like? Might I recommend Courier New? 22:52:43 cpressey: you're right pretty much 22:52:57 pikhq: That's monospaced, though; I don't particularly require monospcaed. 22:52:59 *monospaced 22:53:09 although, it's like passing the parameters by reference more than by value 22:53:16 Besides ... Courier is nicer than Courier New. 22:53:17 alise: Yeah, but it's actually typewriter-imitation. 22:53:24 Okay, Courier. 22:53:44 Okay; now tell me of a nice pdfTeX version. :P 22:54:27 Additionally... Is there a nice LaTeX command to set those little "break in text" flourishes used to mark mini-sections (often three stars like ***)? 22:54:33 alise: \usepackage{courier} 22:54:33 Specifically with the space before and after. 22:54:35 ais523: Eeer umm... kinda but also no. 22:54:49 cpressey: also a good description 22:55:46 Oh, and Courier's apparently not merely typewriter-imitation. 22:55:58 It's the actual typeface that was used in most typewriters from the 50s on. 22:56:26 there were multiples, IIRC 22:56:30 Courier, Elite, Orator 22:56:34 but I think Courier was the most common 22:56:51 Yeah, Courier was the most common due to being free to use. 22:58:16 Okay; now how do I use courier with the verbatim environment? 22:58:32 Or does it automatically do that? 22:58:42 "The font that is actually provided is URW Nimbus Mono (A Courier clone)." Oh, great... 22:59:07 Urgh. 22:59:42 Hrm. Terminal-y font? Maybe fixedsys? 23:00:08 Nah, Courier is great for this. 23:00:20 Is there any command in LaTeX for... "vskip one blank line"? Like, including line height and such? 23:00:31 Mmkay. Guess it'll just be a pain getting Courier installed right, then. 23:01:08 Eh, I'll just use the imitation for now. 23:01:24 It's not /awful/ or anything; it's not like monospaced fonts are paragons of typographic excellence, anyway. 23:01:28 "This extra space, especially when co-occurring at a page break, may contain an asterisk, three asterisks, a special stylistic dingbat, or a special symbol known as an asterism." 23:02:03 I love me some asterisms 23:02:06 *asterisms. 23:02:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(typography) contains actual latex code 23:02:13 \newcommand{\asterism}{\smash{% 23:02:13 \raisebox{-.5ex}{% 23:02:13 \setlength{\tabcolsep}{-.5pt}% 23:02:13 \begin{tabular}{@{}cc@{}}% 23:02:13 \multicolumn2c*\\[-2ex]*&*% 23:02:13 \end{tabular}}}} 23:02:15 Yeah. 23:02:24 But I still need that skip-one-line thing. 23:02:50 It seems that that \asterism won't center properly. 23:03:07 \vspace{...some length...}, i presume 23:03:20 \vskip works 23:03:26 but I'd like it to figure out the length for me 23:04:15 there is presumably some length designation for that particular length 23:04:54 oh? 23:05:05 I'm not sure what you mean. 23:05:24 -!- Starmage has joined. 23:05:37 hi Starmage 23:05:39 latex has many length designations, like em for the width of an m 23:05:43 hellow 23:06:39 http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015564.html is relevant to the centering 23:07:42 http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015565.html says to delete the \smash 23:08:11 \centerline works 23:08:14 thanks 23:08:34 I know about em, that's a standard typographical unit. 23:08:43 I do not believe there is one for "vertical space of one line, including spacing"... 23:10:59 Communication Fail :( 23:12:16 * alise thinks of a name for the break, since \break is taken 23:13:08 http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjansen/latexdoc/ltx-86.html 23:13:47 \baselineskip 23:13:49 \baselineskip + \parskip or something like it 23:13:50 I think 23:14:33 oerjan: no, i'm not so sure 23:14:36 that's just line spacing + par spacing 23:14:39 not the actual length of the line 23:14:42 I think \textheight would do that 23:15:11 -!- Starmage has left (?). 23:15:28 oerjan: oh, and those /set/, silly 23:15:34 I think 23:16:52 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:18:11 um, I'm terribly confused 23:18:44 ? 23:21:34 I got it working, thanks :P 23:21:43 :) 23:22:19 /O/ 23:23:22 pikhq: Sam Hughes could do with a typography lesson. 23:23:30 Or at least, Ed stories-era Sam Hughes could. 23:23:42 Maybe Fine Structure actually has proper quotes and e[nm] dashes. 23:25:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:25:49 "...which would cause the universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences." --Ed 23:26:13 potentially. 23:27:11 -!- SimonRC has joined. 23:27:31 * alise wonders why Be Here Now lists the total number of chapters in its chapter titles 23:27:32 oh well 23:27:36 oerjan: Well, Ed is that kind of guy. 23:27:50 Who's Ed? 23:30:35 http://qntm.org/ed 23:30:44 Or, you could wait for my super-duper nicely-typesetted one. 23:30:51 * Phantom_Hoover notes that one of Gaiman's short stories has been made into an obscene number of films 23:31:03 Which? 23:31:14 We Can Get Them For You Wholesale. 23:31:30 Searching for it on Youtube is ridiculous. 23:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:32:33 that story is awesome 23:32:41 i didn't know there was a film for it 23:32:49 or (m)any of his others 23:32:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:55 i did see the bbc(?) neverwhere production 23:33:10 myndzi, there are a mad number of student films of that one. 23:33:10 and that one novel.. hell, i can't think of the name of it at the moment 23:33:14 i wanna say star something or other 23:33:21 Stardust? 23:33:24 yeah 23:33:33 i've become rather a fan of gaiman haha 23:33:37 my collection should be about complete 23:33:44 even the kids books ;) 23:34:00 i still need some of the Sandman specials though 23:34:15 I *still* can't find Season of Mist. 23:34:18 Smoke and Mirrors is one of my favorite publications though 23:34:28 I've been looking for *months*. 23:34:32 there's just so MANY good stories in there 23:34:46 * oerjan has read Season of Mist *MWAHAHAHA* 23:34:53 oerjan, DIE. 23:34:59 Or send me your copy. 23:35:09 i didn't say i had a _copy_ :D 23:35:15 AA 23:35:16 i read it at the library 23:35:22 actually oerjan has the original 23:35:22 http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=10919118&matches=15&keyword=season+of+mists&cm_sp=works*listing*title 23:35:24 "Ahhhh, and now I get it," says Ed-B. Now I see why you came back and left everyone behind in your old universe." 23:35:29 You missed an opening quote, Sam. 23:35:39 there are a number of copies starting at around $12 23:35:43 where they presumably still has one (or two, probably at least one in norwegian and one in english) 23:35:52 *have 23:35:59 my Sandman copies are that newer two-tone color cover 23:36:02 oerjan, steal it and drop it off at the top of the Scott Monument at noon on Wednesday. 23:36:03 i liked the other covers better 23:36:12 but i couldn't beat the price and getting to buy them all at once 23:36:33 i kinda wanna buy the covers i liked and sell the other ones or something, but that'd be a pain 23:36:37 and i'm not really all that picky about covers 23:37:16 anyway, gonna have to look up that youtube stuff, sounds fun 23:37:44 why do I have a horizontal scrollbar on this chat window? 23:37:59 cpressey, FASCISM 23:38:01 ask your irc client 23:38:02 i see nothing that failed to wrap 23:38:09 Phantom_Hoover: you visited the link, yes? 23:38:21 Yes, but I couldn't get audio. 23:38:29 i am confused 23:38:41 it is not a link that requires audio 23:38:42 No, I mean me, individually. 23:38:57 it is however a link where you can purchase what you were looking for 23:38:57 :) 23:39:10 cpressey: what about myndzi's last link? 23:39:20 Oh, I thought you were talking about something else. 23:39:33 nope 23:39:35 oerjan: it wrapped 23:40:10 if you scroll down there are some new copies for like $15 23:40:18 i mean, one 23:40:24 * myndzi buys it and goes NYAHAHAHA 23:40:25 ;p 23:40:47 oerjan: er, i'm not terribly interested in the book itself, if that's what you meant 23:40:58 myndzi, UK. 23:41:01 cpressey: no it was just a guess 23:41:13 Phantom_Hoover: so? i'm sure you can find someone who will ship there 23:41:18 oerjan, you know the plan? 23:41:35 would you like me to proxy buy one for you? 23:41:40 yes, it involves a man and a canal in panama 23:42:13 a man, a can, a pan 23:42:45 can a man nap? 23:43:02 can a nan map? 23:43:55 madam, can adam plan a canal? 23:44:27 adam, can madam do anal? 23:44:28 ;p 23:44:46 Phantom_Hoover: i am about to leave; you can drop me a query if you decide you want to take me up on the offer 23:44:54 myndzi, NEVER 23:44:54 and i'll see it later 23:44:58 /o/ 23:45:03 o_O 23:45:10 DAMN YOU! 23:45:14 \o/ 23:45:16 why doesnt work /o/ 23:45:22 |o/ 23:45:28 _o_ 23:45:29 | 23:45:29 |\ 23:45:31 i maek mastake /o/ 23:45:31 | 23:45:31 /`\ 23:45:34 is fix 23:46:52 eep 23:47:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:21 -!- augur has joined. 23:47:24 O_o 23:47:30 /o/ 23:47:30 | 23:47:30 >\ 23:47:42 oerjan: im glad you liked my joke :D 23:47:48 is this what you were hunting for? a man, a plan, a canal: panama 23:47:56 Anyone read Ed stories? I know pikhq and Sgeo have. 23:48:15 calamari: hunting? we were already dismembering the body 23:48:19 /o/ _o_ |o| \o\ 23:48:19 | | | | 23:48:19 |\ /| >\ /| 23:48:22 oerjan, I don't see it 23:48:31 guess I lost a line 23:49:03 I ram a lack ok, calamari! 23:49:42 lol 23:50:41 armadillo, rama lama ding dong 23:52:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:53:21 ``I wanna go to Andromeda,'' says Ed, rotating the ship to point 23:53:21 towards an extraordinarily distant blob of light. 23:53:22 ``We can't go to Andromeda,'' I remind him sternly. 23:53:24 Lulz, lampshading. 23:53:42 * oerjan read the Ed stories earlier this year and alise is probably to blame for it 23:53:51 No output. 23:53:58 No output. 23:55:44 oerjan: I told you to read them. So, yeah. 23:55:57 oerjan: Either you didn't like them, or you just wanted to make me feel bad. :P 23:56:00 (wrt "blame") 23:56:38 false dichomoty! 23:56:42 *tomy 23:57:59 oerjan: so what's the true option? :P 23:58:24 pikhq: Okay, do you know the variable to adjust to stop -- from appearing at the start of a line? 23:58:26 It's ugly. 23:58:45 Also, a way to make it disable ligatures when stretching text would be nice. Ha ha, only kidding, I've read the microtype docs, TeX sucks enough that that's impossible. 23:58:51 i thought they were all right, and was joking