00:00:00 AnMaster: you are attempting to argue with the facts of a fictional universe using an incorrect argument from RL 00:00:12 ais523, incorrect? how so? 00:00:22 I'm pointing out the origin of the name Bjorn 00:00:23 incorrect in that people often do give their children misspelt names 00:00:26 is Scandinavian 00:00:49 Bjorn ran into Barack Obama, ex-First Lady of the United States of America, and argued with it for five hours on the subject of whether sap is technically "tree semen" and what the implications of this would be if it were indeed true. They swapped sides every half hour to make it a fair fight, and Bjorn eventually KO'd Barack while they were getting accustomed to their new side of the argument. 00:00:50 and is more properly spelled with an ö and/or ø 00:00:53 your argument is along the lines of "Bjorn can't be named Bjorn because it isn't spelt like that" 00:00:54 which makes no sense 00:01:09 ais523, hm true 00:01:38 KO'd ? 00:02:02 you might as well argue that alise's nick is wrong because the name has a capital A 00:02:12 potassium oxided 00:02:24 actually, alise's nick would be a lot more effective with a capital A, I think 00:03:01 ais523: I like it like this. 00:03:15 well, OK 00:03:21 AnMaster: knocked out with blow, esp. in boxing 00:08:08 alise, ah 00:08:39 alise, oh and sap is more like tree blood 00:08:49 Well, that's what Bjorn argued, for half the time. 00:08:54 ah 00:09:03 But you always have to take turns, you know. 00:09:31 alise, yeah when people do that you know they are arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than arguing for what they believe in. Not that that is wrong 00:09:50 s/believe in/believe in or think is right/ 00:09:51 AnMaster: no they don't 00:09:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:09:57 ais523, ? 00:10:02 -!- augur has joined. 00:10:07 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:14 AnMaster: you missed the metajoke 00:10:25 ais523, oh.... *doh* 00:10:39 lets switch sides :P 00:10:42 but bbl 00:11:36 Actually, I did a bit of arguing-the-opposite-side with coppro in our Great Copyright Debate. 00:11:51 I sort of argued for his side of the story to support a sub-conclusion I was making, and then backtracking it later without destroying the sub-conclusion. 00:12:00 Or at least it is my impression that I did that. 00:12:17 what was the name of that game in which the goal was to zero a flag? 00:12:32 nooga: Nim? 00:12:36 and two programs were writing the memory, and the language was AFAIR brainfucky 00:12:56 i'm trying to google it but with no luck 00:14:21 `ls 00:14:26 eh 00:14:27 fukyorbrane 00:14:29 and bf joust 00:14:32 babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20750 \ wunderbar_emporium 00:14:40 Gregor and Goethe/ais523 respectively 00:14:55 sorry, *Kerim Adyin (marine biologist) 00:15:03 *Aydin 00:15:30 ah 00:15:39 ais523: goethe wrote this: http://www.fish.washington.edu/seminars/spring_08/aydin.html 00:15:45 Sorry, "G." :P 00:16:01 nooga: bfjoust is on egobot, if egobot were here 00:16:09 ah 00:16:20 oerjan: it's on egobot even if egobot isn't here, although what you said doesn't contradict that 00:16:29 except arguably the common use of if to mean iff in English. 00:16:40 alise: NO IT'S NOT. QUANTUM. 00:17:54 ah oerjan is here 00:18:15 i was also looking for some examples of heavy use of haskell interpreter here on channel 00:18:20 but logs are hard to grep ;f 00:20:40 Hmm... wunderbar_emporium 00:21:00 Ilari: some linux exploit that doesn't work. 00:21:36 alise: ooh, let me check 00:21:56 ais523: Kerim Aydin and he's linked to his website which says he's a fisheries research marine biologist 00:22:03 and has a picture of him that is listed in several other places in such a context 00:22:08 I did know he was a marine biologist already 00:22:13 saying he got his phd from washington university where that page is 00:22:19 q.e.d. 00:22:20 although he's also worked on translating legal documents 00:23:09 "Kerim Aydin (marine biologist)" is my Sgeo-meme 00:23:33 nooga: !haskell is alas also on egobot 00:23:51 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:25:30 walk -> 00:26:51 oerjan: at this time? you'll fall into your Norwegian Venice's canal. 00:27:46 oerjan: i know that, now i'm trying to find a log that shows its use 00:28:11 this is really frustrating 00:29:09 i have this applet that is working, but i dont know where it's getting the code from 00:31:14 what was the name of this drink which can *potentially* replace food ? 00:31:23 beer 00:31:26 :D 00:31:28 :DDDDdd 00:31:30 bash'd 00:31:34 what 00:31:47 Sorry, but beer is not a complete protein source. 00:32:02 Add some soy sauce! 00:32:06 soybeer 00:32:08 beersoy 00:32:20 Miso & beer 00:32:54 erm, that vanilla-flavoured one 00:33:04 ok, seriously, who's a java pseudoexpert 00:33:06 i needs help :( 00:33:14 ais523: 00:33:18 alise? 00:33:48 nooga: ? 00:33:53 i'm no java person 00:33:57 what was the name of this drink which can *potentially* replace food ? 00:34:00 Uh, Ensure? 00:34:07 nooga: Some of those VLCD drinks (yuck)? 00:34:08 yep 00:34:11 that's it 00:34:15 thx alise 00:34:18 If you drunk a lot of Ensure Plus, and *trust* those guys... 00:34:25 Or, if you're ais523, ProSoBee. 00:34:52 nooga: I don't think you can get Ensure Plus apart from on prescription and I doubt Ensure itself will sustain anyone to a good level (alive, yes, but not healthy and well). 00:34:54 Also it tastes gross. 00:34:58 Basically food is the better option here. 00:35:53 Dr. HJKL and Mr. vi 00:36:10 alise: my mom is a pharmacist ;> 00:36:40 Mm. And you think this makes her a competent nutritionist? The title "nutritionist" doesn't even do that. 00:37:04 i'm just extremely curious how does it feel to drink your meal 00:37:09 Who was it here that had completely nerded out about nutrition again? 00:37:21 alise: oh come on, it's just a test 00:37:30 nooga: Well, you won't be able to get Ensure Plus, probably. 00:37:36 Ensure should be easy. 00:37:37 pikhq: Ilari 00:37:42 Ahyes. 00:37:55 nooga: Vanilla Ensure Plus tastes like really overly-sweet but somehow not nice fake vanilla taste. Very horrible. And metallic. 00:37:59 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:38:04 They ALL taste vaguely metallic and have a strong metallic aftertaste and they are thick. 00:38:10 Not thick thick, still liquid, but thick liquid. 00:38:15 basically i can get everything, even if it's perscription only 00:38:26 The chocolate one tastes like kinda gross metalic chocolate. 00:38:29 almost everything* 00:38:31 nooga: So, an irresponsible pharmacist, then. 00:38:32 alise: And how would you know this? 00:38:39 pikhq: Unit. "Malnutrition". 00:38:42 Also, the metal is probably the iron. 00:38:50 It's the iron and the five billion other metallic things in there. 00:39:01 Ensure plus: 1400Cal to 100% RDA? Somebody figured out how to do that in <800Cal without involving special drinks... 00:39:01 :D 00:39:06 Yes, but those are in trace, not-tastable amounts for the most part. 00:39:23 There will be a *lot* of iron, though. 00:39:24 Fair enough. 00:39:31 Ilari: No; >1000 kJ. 00:39:49 One bottle of Ensure Plus is like 330 kcal. 00:39:57 alise: i can, but it does not mean that i would 00:40:12 It's got to be having more iron than red meats... *Which are red because of the freaking iron in them*. 00:40:29 :D 00:40:38 Ilari: But it is a "complete balanced nutritional supplement" so if they didn't get it horribly wrong and your body is relatively normal it should keep you alive. 00:40:42 Some foods are just plain superrior in nutrient density. 00:40:44 They give it to people with e.g. throat cancer apparently. 00:41:00 Wow ... 00:41:00 SEEEMS EXTREMELY COOL 00:41:00 http://ensure.com/ 00:41:06 They are marketing it as a consumer product. 00:41:13 That makes me sick. 00:41:36 What, you didn't realise that? 00:41:45 I knew you could basically just buy it. 00:41:57 I didn't know they were telling relatively-healthy or on-the-road-to-health people to drink it. 00:42:06 Anyways: Ensure Plus is also given for feeding via feeding tubes. 00:42:11 Since, y'know, it's liquid. 00:42:12 "Add one delicious Ensure Shake daily to a healthy diet and make a change for the better." 00:42:16 I want to kill myself now. 00:42:35 pikhq: They also make specific tube feeds; the anorexic girl was on Jevity for a while. 00:42:37 Yeah, that's been adveertised in the US for, oh... 20 years now, I guess. 00:42:49 So she lugged around this machine connected into her nose and liquid slowly dripped inside. 00:43:03 I found nutrion facts for Ensure Plus. Doesn't look too healthy... About 20g of sugar and 1g of SFA 5g of PUFA and that's per serving doesn't looke too good. 00:43:05 alise: Yeah, I'd imagine that. 00:43:23 Ilari: A day. 00:43:29 pikhq: no 00:43:31 more than one shake a day 00:43:36 Oh. 00:43:41 I was prescribed 2 and I still ate 00:43:43 That's... A hell of a lot of sugar. 00:43:47 *prescribed two 00:44:00 "Get Delicious Ensure Recipes". Oh joy, I wonder if this is the one where they suggest putting the no-flavour (i.e. metal flavour) one on cereal. 00:44:11 I guess because a spoonfull of sugar makes the medicine go down? 00:44:52 "Fast Hot Chocolate" "Cheddar Turkey Quiche" "Blueberry Breakfast Toast" 00:44:57 GUYS, ENSURE TASTES HORRIBLE. NOT SURE IF YOU REALISED. 00:45:12 "Not registered with Ensure.com? Sign up." 00:45:14 No, I really don't want to. 00:45:31 [[What are the best food items to carry with me when out shopping and running errands? 00:45:31 It is important that your daily calorie intake be based on your usual activity level. If you are considerably more active on any given day or are away from home, plan ahead to eat appropriately to manage your food intake. It's best to prepare your own foods so you can control what goes into a meal and avoid hidden calories. On a busy day, carry along one medium apple and a bottle of great-tasting Ensure®.]] 00:45:36 DRINK ENSURE EVERY DAY, EVERYONE. 00:46:05 ... I cannot imagine that being a good idea. 00:46:44 YAY! 00:46:50 I REFUSE 00:46:55 Ilari: http://ensure.com/ask-a-nutritionist/nutrition-faq Quick, debunk it all. 00:47:10 Surely the digestive system dislikes nothing-but-nutrition for long periods of time? 00:47:21 "Ensure and Ensure Plus® got a makeover. The flavors you love will soon be in an all-new bottle." 00:47:24 Gee golly jeepers. 00:47:36 pikhq: It has fibre in I think. Or at least some form of it does. 00:47:39 So, yay, Ensure poop. 00:47:46 "Rich Dark Chocolate Ensure Hits Shelves 00:47:46 The wait is over! Get healthy and stay healthy the delicious way from the nutrition in Rich Dark Chocolate Ensure." 00:47:49 I will cry now. 00:47:56 intestines enjoy processing poo 00:48:21 I defintely would not use ensure plus as part of a weight-loss diet. It could work for weight gain diet, but I consider use for even that too dangerous. 00:48:24 Ilari: http://ensure.com/products/ensure-plus 00:48:31 Ilari: the nutrition stuff from the source 00:48:34 lol "homemade vanilla" 00:48:37 they sure have spiced up the product names 00:48:44 alise: It probably has some of that 'fiber powder' bullshit. 00:48:46 Ilari: yeah for me it was weight gain 00:49:01 (which is only technically fiber; doesn't really help digestion much) 00:49:16 pikhq: "Dietary fibre" 00:49:23 *fiber; darned Americans. 00:49:24 maybe it's because there 00:49:34 's barely anything to digest 00:49:41 alise: Yes; that's called "bullshit". 00:49:49 Figurative, not literal. 00:50:17 Has anyone pirate-released a TV series or movie in full 1080p yet? I presume so, but I've never seen it. 00:50:28 "Surprise — neither. Yes, it may be a trick question, but because nearly 100% of their calories are derived from fat, neither butter nor margarine is the best choice for cooking." AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH 00:50:36 Erm, sorry. 00:50:40 "Which is healthier for cooking: butter or margarine?" 00:50:51 LARD! 00:51:00 Somebody fails at fucking nutrition. 00:51:25 alise: They've been doing Bluray dumps for a while now. 00:51:36 "A or B; which is better?" "C!" 00:51:47 pikhq: Isn't Blu-Ray 1080i? 00:51:55 alise: Or 1080p. 00:52:04 "Is soy sauce a good source for soy protein? 00:52:05 Although soy sauce is a product of the soybean (fermented soy) and tends to liven up many of our favorite dishes, it contains only 1 to 2 grams of soy protein per tablespoon and is high in sodium. If it's soy protein you're looking for, good sources include soy burgers, soymilk, and isolated soy protein powders. 00:52:10 " 00:52:14 pikhq: Any major 1080p releases yet? 00:52:20 :F 00:52:27 Heh... I searched Fineli for foods with most Folic acid per mass. Liver, Liver, yeast, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, wheat germ, liver, kidney, kidney, liver, liver, liver... 00:52:27 alise: All films. 00:52:28 Mm, soy sauce. 00:52:46 pikhq: Cool. 00:52:59 Ilari: :-) 00:53:03 Ilari: So, all plants, obviously. 00:53:09 As we all know, liver is a plant. 00:53:12 WRONG ANSWER. Soy sauce is not a good source of protein, but you want some good sources of protein from soy? Not stupid, fecking retarded, processed "soy protein" BS. 00:53:33 pikhq: So, how big are H.264 Blu-Ray rips? 00:53:39 Soy milk. Tofu. Miso. Soy *beans* (roast and salt them, mmm delicious). Processed soy protein is... Not worth-while. 00:53:43 Awesome GiB or ORGASMIC ON-SCREEN QUALITY GiB? 00:53:45 alise: 25-50 GB. 00:53:57 pikhq: Dammit why aren't disks cheaper. 00:54:04 I need a 10 TiB disk. 00:54:10 Well. 10 TB would work too. 00:54:32 Argh. Blu-ray tops out at 1080i for 60fps content. 00:55:04 It's 1080p for 24fps stuff. 00:55:19 As it so happens, almost all films are 24fps. 00:55:40 pikhq: 1080p 60fps. Yes sir, yes I do want it sir. 00:55:43 And a very large number of (American) TV shows. 00:55:48 And if one would take bioaviability into consideration, that wheat germ could be sent far back. 00:57:13 pikhq: So, how are the quality of Blu-Ray rips? You see, there is a rather nice 37" 1080p LG TV in this house and I would like to experience its gloriousness. 00:57:26 alise: So, this is somehow meant as a food replacement, while basically being a very crappy milkshake with a vitamin pill dumped in. 00:57:42 alise: Blu-Ray dumps are *dumps of the bitstream on the disc*, after being encoded. 00:57:50 Erm, decrypted. 00:57:52 Not encoded. 00:57:55 pikhq: Okay, rephrase. 00:58:24 pikhq: Can you get Blu-Ray rips in .mkv? What kinda specs do I need to decode them? How good are Blu-Ray films as far as picture quality goes? 00:58:35 pikhq: Well, I know it is "possible" to survive on Ensure Plus since patients who cannot eat do. 00:59:01 PHP yuck 00:59:32 worst language after C++ and Java that became popular 00:59:39 alise: Almost certainly, a fairly-decent modern system, and the picture quality varies greatly based on whether or not the encoder of the disc was an idiot. 00:59:53 nno, actually it's the first, before C++ and Java 00:59:54 alise: You can get really-stupidly encoded MPEG-2 or wonderfully encoded x264. 01:00:13 pikhq: Any things-to-avoid wrt MPEG-2? 01:00:21 So, anywhere from "What the hell this is shit" to "... THE BEAUTY!!!" 01:00:24 Wonderfully encoded H.264 sounds good. I doubt the encoders used x264. 01:00:28 If it's commercial in any way. 01:00:42 alise: Not really; if it's even so much as well-encoded MPEG-2 it should actually be quite nice. 01:00:59 Yeah, but ... H.264. 01:01:06 I want to experience full, 1080p GLORY. 01:01:33 I mean, the video stream is 40 Mbit/s. 01:01:57 wo 01:02:05 This is at the point where well-encoded MPEG-2 achieves transparency. 01:02:15 http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/cryptochrome/ <- kinda cool piece of research 01:02:53 pikhq: Whereas H.264 becomes invisible. 01:02:55 (for comparison, OTA HD in the US is 19 Mbit/s per physical channel, and that is often split into two or more virtual channels.) 01:04:31 pikhq: See, right now that TV is plugged into a Sky (the satellite TV service in Britain) box via /SCART/. 01:04:45 Why? Because you need Sky HD to get HDMI. This costs >£100 for the box and like £10 or more a month. 01:04:49 alise: THE RAPE! THE EYERAPE! 01:04:58 Conclusion: Fuck that shit. Bring on the downloads. 01:05:19 pikhq: Ehh, on actual SDTV, which is low-quality anyway, it's not noticeable. 01:05:22 Only in the menu interface. 01:06:52 Might I suggest Freeview? (surely they have HD on Freeview?) :P 01:07:41 (and thereby avoid subsidizing Murdock's murder of journalism) 01:07:51 Erm, Murdoch? 01:07:59 pikhq: Freeview ... lacks a lot of channels that are actually worth watching. 01:08:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:03 Such as: Sky 1. 01:08:13 Worth watching as far as TV goes that is. 01:08:16 Which is not much at all. 01:08:19 alise: Rupert. Fucking. Murdoch. 01:08:30 pikhq: Yeah, I know. You do realise Sky own a chunk of Freeview? 01:08:41 pikhq: Besides, WE DON'T RECEIVE FREEVIEW HERE. 01:08:45 So we have no choice. 01:08:49 Yes, yes, but you don't pay for it. And waitwhat? 01:08:59 aren't all the Freeview channels received via Sky? 01:09:02 they have no reason not to, after all 01:09:08 ais523: Yes. 01:09:08 ais523: er, no, via the old ondigital network 01:09:15 oh, you mean the satellite? 01:09:17 probably, who knows 01:09:43 pikhq: Freeview HD has recently been released, but ... 01:09:59 I mean, there's not exactly Discovery on Freeview. Or Sky Movies. 01:10:07 If you're gonna get HD ... 01:10:15 ... but this is all moot, downloading ist he far superior option. 01:10:20 alise: So... The UK is worse at HD than the US. Good to know. 01:10:24 WE'RE SUPERIOR AT SOMETHING! 01:10:59 (it is, nowadays, nearly impossible to not receive HD in the US. You have to go to the Alaska/Russia border or something crazy like that.) 01:11:30 pikhq: You also switched over to digital TV in, like, the blink of an eyelid and handled the transition almost perfectly. 01:11:47 We're doing it over the course of 2007 to 2012, slowly, with a lot of complaints, setbacks, mishaps and public confusion. 01:12:01 alise: Not really. We'd been broadcasting in digital for about a decade prior. 01:12:14 Also, most people don't watch TV OTA. Making it easy. 01:12:16 :P 01:12:30 alise: so we can all expect a lot of hilarity when the uk finally decides to switch to right hand side driving? 01:12:34 Well, whatever. 01:12:49 oerjan: Yeah, they'll switch a county at a time. 01:12:56 :-D 01:13:03 And have transition points at the borders of counties. 01:13:05 * oerjan has heard some old jokes from when sweden did so 01:13:06 >:D 01:13:15 YOU ARE NOW ENTERING A RIGHT-SIDE ZONE. 01:13:18 PLEASE SWERVE. 01:13:44 oerjan: actually that'd never happen 01:13:49 along with switching to the euro 01:13:50 we'd have riots 01:14:15 Guy Fawkes would need to rise from the grave and finish off Parliament first. 01:14:29 And then fail at bringing back full-on monarchy. 01:14:36 Leaving the country in total chaos. 01:14:50 i have problems with crossing a street in the UK 01:14:56 not to mention driving a car 01:15:11 remember, remember, eternal september, or wasn't that how it went 01:15:46 Remember, remember, the fifth of November / Gunpowder, treason and plot. / I see no reason why gunpowder treason / Should ever be forgot. 01:15:47 Remember remember the Fifth of November, the gunpowder treason and plot. 01:15:52 pikhq: No "the". 01:16:05 i heard that swedish switched from LHD to RHD in 50's 01:16:06 alise: Darnit. 01:16:09 * oerjan thinks someone didn't notice he was joking 01:16:16 nooga: yes 01:16:21 Remember, remember, eternal September / newbies smoking pot. / I see no reason why eternal unreason / should ever be forgot. 01:16:23 oerjan: I did. 01:16:40 but they;ve had riving wheels on the proper side all the time 01:16:44 alise: Anyways. People in the UK must really hate how that darned movie made people quote that without having the foggiest clue what it meant. 01:16:56 and we norwegians joked about how they'd switch only the trucks initially 01:17:08 hehe 01:17:11 pikhq: Wait, which movie? 01:17:37 oerjan: So which is the best Scandinavian country, Sweden or Finland? 01:17:40 alise: V for Vendetta 01:17:41 Remember, remember, eternal September / newbies smoking pot. / I see no reason why eternal unreason / should ever be forgot. <-- ooh nice 01:17:46 AnMaster: No, horrible. 01:17:46 * oerjan actually learned that from reading sandman. he thinks. 01:17:57 alise, what? 01:18:09 pikhq: Same guy as did Watchmen, I believe? 01:18:19 Or was it 300? 01:18:20 i heard that swedish switched from LHD to RHD in 50's <-- if talking about driving. Then yes 01:18:41 No, we're talking about rabbit haemorrhagic disease. 01:18:54 alise: The comic was by the same guy who did Watchmen and Swamp Thing. 01:18:55 And large helical devicse. 01:18:57 *devices. 01:18:59 pikhq: I mean the film. 01:19:05 alise: Matrix. 01:19:05 alise: i have never been to finland, actually 01:19:12 I know who Alan Moore is. 01:19:21 alise, did you ever get around to reading TMoPI? 01:19:23 Wachowski Brothers. 01:19:27 pikhq: Ah. 01:19:39 Wonder what only drinking few cans (just enough to break that 1400Cal limit) would do... Probably wouldn't be fun to watch (unless you are sadist). 01:19:41 Sgeo: Not yet. 01:19:48 oerjan: That was not my desired response. 01:20:08 well finland isn't scandinavian, either :D 01:20:20 "The filmmakers removed many of the anarchist themes and drug references present in the original story and also altered the political message to what they believed would be more relevant to a 2006 audience." 01:20:21 Meh, kill me. 01:20:27 alise, why would that line be horrible 01:20:39 AnMaster: I invented it on the spot and I am no poet. 01:20:59 If one wants horror stories about diets gone horribly wrong, then various accounts of Minnesota starvation experiment are good... 01:21:12 * pikhq boggles 01:21:22 pikhq: Quick! Think of words! 01:21:30 lol @ Minnesota starvation experiment 01:21:36 Japan has both RHD and LHD commonly used. 01:21:38 alise: the sandman story i mentioned was about how shakespeare invented (half of) the initial poem. it wasn't intended to be good :) 01:21:39 "I know! Let's STARVE people. ...for SCIENCE, of course." 01:21:41 Erm, RHD and LHD *vehicles*. 01:21:53 It's all LHD *roads* of course. 01:21:54 oerjan: Hm what. 01:22:00 pikhq: aww I almost got interested 01:22:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:06 "Whoops, *swerve*" 01:22:07 alise: it's fiction 01:22:11 oerjan: right 01:22:13 oerjan: I just lost context 01:22:19 alise, you should be one 01:22:20 -!- augur has joined. 01:22:30 AnMaster: What, a poet? 01:22:33 alise, yes 01:22:35 Uh, thanks. You have horrible taste in poetry. 01:22:38 Actually, it was only semi-starvation. But the results were quite horrid... 01:22:47 alise, try making a poem about a bridge or something next ;P 01:22:59 that way you HAVE to be better than the worst case 01:23:06 alise: Okinawa Prefecture was RHD from 1945 to 1978, unlike the rest of Japan. 01:23:12 alise: "Whoops, *swerve*" 01:23:28 AnMaster: hey i was going to link to that 01:23:35 (沖縄県) 01:23:36 oerjan: link to what? 01:23:43 oerjan, :P 01:23:50 (also, that's a fucking polyglot. Effs yes.) 01:24:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tay_Bridge_Disaster 01:24:23 (okinawaken in Japanese, uchinaaken in Okinawan) 01:24:38 " (one subject amputated three fingers of his hand with an axe, though the subject was unsure if he had done so intentionally or accidentally)" 01:24:47 o.O 01:25:17 Remind me to not even volunteer for something that might have damaging psychological effects 01:25:19 oerjan, it is interesting to note he starts out trying to make it rhyme and then gives up halfway through each of those quotes 01:25:32 AnMaster: Hell, it's easy enough to write poetry worse than that. 01:25:38 well actually he only really gives up in the second one 01:25:42 I already know that the only way I'll volunteer for a drug trial is if I know I'll die otherwise 01:26:25 AnMaster: um i actually suspect he thought they _did_ rhyme 01:26:49 alise: Mwahahahah. 01:27:00 alise: Some UK military bases are right-hand drive. 01:27:29 For the stronger we our houses build 01:27:29 The less chance we have of being killed" 01:27:33 oerjan, that doesn't rhyme 01:27:43 AnMaster: Behold, a worse poem about a bridge: http://pastie.org/1057838.txt?key=ods2djouutsgcvmpp2a 01:27:48 Build / killed rhymes. 01:27:51 Or at least, almost rhymes. 01:27:56 Billed, killed. 01:28:03 Well, bill'd. 01:28:23 alise, exactly. It doesn't actually rhyme. Just nearly so 01:28:28 alise: Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Savoy-court-drive-right-out.JPG 01:28:55 AnMaster: Or are you actually going to say http://pastie.org/1057838.txt?key=ods2djouutsgcvmpp2a is better than Tay Bridge Disaster? 01:29:09 alise, hm okay, but that doesn't count. You intended to write it badly 01:29:20 the point of the original one was that it wasn't intended to be bad 01:29:27 Well, uh, then I surrender. 01:29:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:29:45 alise, you could write better than The Tay Bridge Disaster if you tried to 01:29:48 -!- augur has joined. 01:29:53 alise, that was my point 01:29:58 Well, yes. 01:30:23 "McGonagall also considered himself an actor, although the theatre where he performed, Mr Giles' Theatre, would let him perform the title role in Macbeth only if he paid for the privilege in advance. Their caution proved ill-founded, as the theatre was filled with friends and fellow workers, anxious to see what they correctly predicted to be an amusing disaster. Although the play should have ended with Macbeth's death at the hands of Macduff, McGonagall be 01:30:23 lieved that the actor playing Macduff was trying to upstage him, and so refused to die." 01:30:53 alise, -_- 01:30:54 indeed 01:32:00 btw I wonder what upstage means 01:32:04 Look it up. 01:32:16 Pah, they link to Wesley Willis in the See Also section. Wesley Willis is far more of a poet! 01:32:43 ah hm 01:33:16 "He is my greatest singer 01:33:16 He was my kind of guy 01:33:16 He can really rock 01:33:16 He can rock this place apart" --Wesley Willis, "Elvis Presley" 01:33:23 -!- iamcal has quit. 01:33:40 alise, well pretty bad still 01:33:42 IMO 01:33:51 "Play that rock lead guitar 01:33:51 Rock it like a magikist 01:33:51 Rock and roll is the joyride music 01:33:51 Whip that snow leopard's ass 01:33:52 Rock Saddam Hussein's ass (x2)" -- Wesley Willis, "Rock Saddam Hussein's Ass" 01:33:58 How can you deny the ... sheer genius? 01:34:11 Sorry, *(x4). 01:34:15 alise, ouch 01:34:19 that is just so bad it is bad 01:34:31 not starwars holiday special yet 01:34:35 And I will merely link to the lyrics of "I'm Sorry That I Got Fat (i Will Slim Down)": 01:34:37 http://www.lyricstime.com/wesley-willis-i-m-sorry-that-i-got-fat-i-will-slim-down-lyrics.html 01:34:41 *I Will 01:34:47 -!- alise has left (?). 01:34:50 -!- alise has joined. 01:34:51 Oops. 01:35:19 AnMaster: Do note that Wesley Willis was a severe schizophrenic who usually played random crap over a built-in keyboard demo track and basically yelled over it. 01:35:23 alise, okay THAT is starwars holiday special quality 01:35:31 He was awesome. 01:35:53 [["Warhellride" is a term used by Willis to describe his encounters with "demons," which occurred mainly on the CTA bus lines in Chicago.[citation needed] Willis, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, often claimed that demons were trying to ruin his "Harmony Joy Music" or "Harmony Joy Rides". Willis also used the term to describe general harassment: In one of his songs he says, "He gave me a yelldown warhellride." When asked about the demons or Warhellri 01:35:54 des, Willis would often comment that he was trying to "stay the hell out of prison" by "not hitting people in the street with bricks." In several songs, both terms are used openly. One of Willis' songs is entitled "I Deserve a Warhellride".]] 01:39:39 -!- cal153 has joined. 01:40:00 pikhq: Any Minion progress? >_> 01:40:53 NAI! 01:41:38 pikhq: WELL PROGRESS IT. 01:42:10 TI SSERGORP LLEW, YOURSELF! 01:42:17 pikhq: Fine, I'll typeset a book in Minion. >_> 01:42:34 But which book, I wonder. 01:42:41 No, no, no, noiniM. 01:42:57 Hmm... RTL English... 01:43:16 ...hsilgnE LTR ...mmH 01:43:33 .driew si sihT 01:43:52 This laptop is awesome. Buy this laptop. 01:44:27 Kawatakunai kedo... 01:45:18 what is Minion? 01:45:21 Hmm. Food may be good to eat. 01:45:50 pikhq: Meh, food! 01:45:53 AnMaster: A typeface. 01:45:56 ah 01:46:01 alise, link to sample? 01:46:17 alise: That attitude causes Ensure Plus. 01:46:19 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/MinionPro.svg 01:46:24 Not so good at the big size there. Reduce it a little bit. 01:46:38 hm 01:46:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 01:46:42 night 01:46:58 pikhq: Suggest a book to typeset! 01:47:02 AnMaster: Night. 01:47:11 http://i.imgur.com/3rCwy.jpg 01:47:23 alise: Hmm... Beowulf. 01:47:41 pikhq: Hmm. I'm thinking "no". 01:47:41 More of an epic, though. 01:47:56 http://i.imgur.com/3rCwy.jpg <-- wtf 01:47:57 Poetry is something I've never done and ... well ... I don't really like Beowulf. 01:47:57 BUT THORN! WYNN! 01:48:02 LONG S! 01:48:04 AnMaster: you've not seen that video? 01:48:09 alise, yes I have 01:48:10 but 01:48:15 the way they use it there 01:48:24 it's called poking fun 01:48:32 alise, at themselves? 01:48:41 they have that sort of humour? 01:48:46 Yes, Microsoft is not 100% soulless. 01:48:53 pikhq, strange tidings indeed 01:48:55 AnMaster: Departments of Microsoft can be nice. 01:48:56 It takes a soul to create that much agony. 01:48:59 Microsoft itself sucks. 01:49:07 A very brutally twisted soul, mind, but still. 01:49:07 pikhq, haha 01:49:08 AnMaster: I mean, GHC is basically developed by Microsoft Research. 01:49:19 Simon Peyton Jones, what's that other guy, both work for Microsoft Research. 01:49:23 alise, yes but that is MSDN not MS Research 01:49:42 Making one reference doesn't mean they're not crazy, you know. 01:49:47 well true 01:49:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:50:04 night really now however → 01:50:50 Night. 01:51:26 pikhq: I'd set Finnegans Wake, but the possibility of even one error... 01:53:13 alise: Not public domain. 01:53:40 pikhq: I don't give a damn. 01:53:53 http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/decss-haiku.txt 01:53:59 pikhq: So, tell me, why isn't linux32 working? 01:54:05 ehird@dinky:~/Downloads$ sudo linux32 ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin 01:54:05 linux32: ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin: No such file or directory 01:55:06 alise: How bizarre. 01:55:15 Also, you don't need linux32 to run a 32-bit binary. 01:55:23 pikhq: Well, it doesn't work without. 01:55:31 sudo: unable to execute ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin: No such file or directory 01:55:31 ... Waithwat? 01:55:39 ^?ELF^A^A^A^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^B^@^C^@^ 01:55:42 So it's a normal ELF. 01:56:02 Could you objdump that? 01:57:14 Hmm. Most likely thing missing is the appropriate dynamic linker. Sure you've got 32-bit libs installed? 02:00:04 My friend and his boyfriend and their picture of them dressed as Mario and Luigi is slash-ing my inner child to death waaaaaaah 02:00:42 alise: I take it the file actually exists? 02:01:03 ais523: Yes... yes it does. 02:01:07 pikhq: No. Not sure. Know the Debian package? 02:01:13 alise: No. 02:01:17 Gregor: Which usage of the term slash are we using here? 02:01:18 alise: objdump objdump objdump. 02:01:25 alise: Both 02:01:26 alise: Also objdump objdump objdump. 02:01:31 alise: Hence the hyphen :P 02:02:09 Gregor: Kirk/Spock THERE GOES YOUR INNER CHILD 02:02:23 pikhq: That's substantially less of an issue because THEY'RE NOT BROTHERS. 02:02:52 The term is "wincest" now I believe, so you have nothing to worry about. 02:03:03 Gregor: But that is the sole cause of all slash! 02:03:29 *sobs quietly to self in the fetal position* 02:03:47 THE FETAL POSITION MAKES MOTHERS SEXUALLY AROUSED* 02:03:49 *SCIENTIFIC FACT 02:03:49 \o/ 02:05:58 pikhq: How are you with writing really annoying server-side code (PHP/Python/whatever, SQL, whatever) to fit with really-annoying client-side code mockups? X-P 02:06:07 yay adobe am work 02:06:16 Gregor: Oh sure, don't ask the INSTITUTIONALISED ORPHAN* first. 02:06:19 *Not actually an orphan. 02:06:44 alise: I was going to ask you after a week of pestering pikhq and getting no result! 02:06:58 You're just lower on my "pester-and-get-no-result" list. 02:07:04 This is why we can never be lovers. :| 02:07:10 Being second on the list. 02:07:14 IT IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR AN ORPHAN. 02:07:20 Orphans have an important desire to be first in everything. 02:07:22 I think. 02:07:34 Gregor: NO 02:07:53 pikhq: That is not a valid answer! 02:08:13 Gregor: Then mu I say, 無! 02:09:18 alise: How are you with writing really annoying server-side code (PHP/Python/whatever, SQL, whatever) to fit with really-annoying client-side code mockups? X-P 02:09:52 Gregor: Good, but I sort of kind of don't want to do it. ...at least not without an amount of money with which to buy booze to drown out my subsequent sorrow. 02:10:37 Are you even old enough to drink and hit on semianonymous guys in chat rooms *glares* 02:10:49 i'm 7 and a half! 02:10:56 Also, you have a crazy definition of semianonymous :P 02:10:58 Gregor: In Germany. 02:11:07 pseudoanonymous 02:11:13 *I'm 02:11:27 Gregor: We know your real name, what university you go to, and what you look like. 02:11:31 You are not anonymous in any way :P 02:11:36 Hence pseudoanonymous. 02:11:46 How are you even that? 02:11:50 Your name is YOUR NAME. 02:11:58 Hm, OK, fair enough X-D 02:12:06 I guess I don't even have a false pretense of anonymity. 02:12:14 -!- Gregor has changed nick to CouldBeGregorOrN. 02:12:18 Oh foo 02:12:22 -!- CouldBeGregorOrN has changed nick to ProbablyNotGrego. 02:12:25 Damn it. 02:12:34 -!- ProbablyNotGrego has changed nick to GRAGGORSMASH. 02:12:39 Close enough. 02:13:22 Graggor Smash Brothers 02:13:29 G'ahhhhhh 02:13:31 THE SLASHINESS 02:13:33 *sobs* 02:13:34 -!- GRAGGORSMASH has changed nick to Gregor. 02:14:51 I still think the Armstrong/Aldrin was the best slash ever. 02:15:48 a bit out of this world, i expect 02:16:57 pikhq: Oh my word Minion for LaTeX is beautiful. 02:17:14 It... it just... it just looks perfect. 02:17:30 Hmm... New instructions to implement: Read code memory, write code memory and append code memory. :-) 02:17:47 alise: Mmm. 02:18:39 alise: BTW, I'm sure there's better. 02:18:47 pikhq: Typefaces? It's all relative. 02:18:58 Minion is a fine typeface. For god's sake, the Elements of Typographical Style is set in it. 02:19:02 You can't get much more approved than that. 02:19:16 pikhq: Here, look at this PDF produced with LaTeX and Minion Pro. 02:19:19 http://filebin.ca/tyykob/MinionPro.pdf 02:19:22 Tell me it's not amazing. 02:21:04 Hmm... With those code code memory operators, I don't need swap operators for TCness. Except that TCness with code memory operators is a lot more difficult than with swap operators. :-) 02:21:38 alise: That is not amazing. That is Beauty Incarnate. 02:21:57 pikhq: BTW, you can just copy-paste the commands at http://lglinux.blogspot.com/2007/09/myriad-and-minion-for-latex.html, except you have to adjust the Adobe Reader directory two times. 02:22:06 (After running through the Adobe Reader installer.) 02:22:35 Since code memory is unbounded in size... 02:22:50 But one can access only current window. 02:23:36 * pikhq loves him some text figures 02:24:00 So in order to allow unbounded memory, one would have to copy code around. 02:24:01 pikhq: But you can have lining figures /in math mode only/! 02:24:04 It's amazing. 02:24:10 Apparently there's a tornado watch for where I live 02:24:14 alise: Beautiful. 02:24:21 That's where lining figures belong. 02:24:27 My dad says that it's unlikely that there would be a tornado, and even if there is, the basement wouldn't help 02:25:29 My dad says your dad says a lot of things. 02:25:45 He says it's not the right type of shelter 02:26:31 Your dad says a lot of stupid things. 02:26:46 I think I'm going to go down there anyway 02:27:02 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:27:05 >_< 02:27:10 pikhq: Suggest a book for me to typeset! 02:27:36 alise: Name to me some authors you like. 02:27:56 Older ones; 02:28:04 PD text is findable. 02:28:10 Mm, too many to list. I'm mainly looking for something to do, really. 02:28:13 I care not for copyright. 02:28:28 "Maybe you could try homeopathy to fix your botched nose job." "Maybe you could try homeopathy to fix your irrational belief in things that have no scientific basis." 02:28:32 I wonder if Alice's Adventures in Wonderland would go with Minion... no. (I gotta typeset it /some/time.) 02:28:41 Okay, then. The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect. 02:28:44 Gregor: FEISTY. 02:28:47 pikhq: I'd rather read it first. 02:28:52 What *would* be appropriate for Adventures in Wonderland 02:28:54 alise: Do so. 02:29:02 pikhq: When I'm not tired. When I'm discharged. 02:29:21 pikhq: Quick, what's that wonderful serif Japanese font again? 02:29:22 alise: Origin of Species? 02:29:37 malleus maleficarum 02:29:39 alise: Serif? Hmm. Sazanami? Takao? 02:29:41 No, that's not a font. :P 02:29:51 pikhq: Hmm ... what was that one that was common on Linux? I forget. 02:30:02 Oh, is that Takao? 02:30:17 I named two such fonts. 02:30:31 What's that one that's... grr, I forget. 02:30:40 Kochi? 02:30:45 Yes. 02:30:48 Is Kochi or Takao better? 02:30:58 I don't recall, actually. 02:31:18 * pikhq shall find type samples again 02:32:27 My dad suggested that the air in the basement might not be so great 02:32:33 Sgeo: My dad! My dad! My dad! 02:33:07 alise: Actually, Bitstream Cyberbit has some really nice Japanese glyphs. 02:33:46 I don't want to breath unhealthy air if the place affords no protection 02:35:32 Hmm... 02:35:42 alise: Sazanami Mincho and Kochi Mincho appear to be about on par, glyph-quality wise. 02:35:48 Maybe if I keep some sort of alert thing open to warn me if it becomes a warning... 02:35:55 They also both include Opentype tables for vertical text. 02:36:03 As long as I keep my shoes on, I should be able to quickly go into the basement 02:36:20 Sadly, I don't know how to get good CJK typesetting going 02:36:28 http://www.reddit.com/r/malkovich 02:36:34 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:37:39 My mind has just been blown... 02:37:48 Emacs supports multiple character sets in the same text file. 02:37:53 pikhq: What. 02:37:56 My God that's... Wow. 02:38:04 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 02:38:10 alise: It's most useful for non-Unicode TeX. 02:38:29 -!- wareya has joined. 02:38:29 It'll switch its character set parsing based on which language you told TeX to use. 02:38:34 pikhq: Cute. 02:38:57 Getting you multilingual text without Unicode. Clever, if bizarre. 02:40:25 alise 02:40:27 * Sgeo needs an easy way to stay alert for severe weather warnings 02:40:40 do u know C 02:41:08 WeatherBug for Android shows me a Tornado Watch for Pennsylvania 02:41:10 Utterly useless 02:41:19 Excelsior, brilliant, diamond, pearl; agate, nonpareil, mignonette and minion; brevier, burgeois, long primer and small pica; pica, english, great primer, and double pica; double english, double great primer, french canon and five line pica; and six line pica, and eight line pica. 02:41:21 cheater99: Yes. 02:41:36 oh sorry i said 'u' 02:41:40 i forgot you don't like it 02:41:49 can you recommend a good book for it that isn't K&R 02:42:20 K&R2 02:42:30 sorry 02:43:05 I'm planning on writing a host for a Lua interpreter in C 02:43:36 now how do i tell adobe reader NOT TO BE DEFAULT PDF READER. 02:43:38 cheater99: K&R 02:44:18 Might rawaw be a good name for a table that holds the AW functions? 02:46:01 no 02:46:07 alise, why not? 02:46:52 because of fascism 02:46:59 ??? 02:47:41 pikhq: how did you create the title of your The Time Machine again? 02:51:18 -!- goldweard has joined. 02:54:34 -!- goldweard has quit (Quit: IRC for iPhone). 02:54:46 -!- BRETTs has joined. 02:55:54 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:56:22 -!- BRETTs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:05:04 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 03:05:15 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:06:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:09:45 alise: can you recommend a good book for it that isn't K&R 03:10:31 No; there are no others. Explain your problem with K&R. 03:13:18 K&R is outdated 03:13:21 that is one issue 03:14:06 we need a K&R third edition 03:14:07 for C99 03:14:16 ais523, yes quite 03:14:18 that would solve it 03:16:22 not really 03:16:27 c89 is fine, c99 is just a few things to learn 03:16:33 K&R2 plus just ... googling c99 should do it 03:16:53 ais523: i don't think the inventors of C actually really like c99 that much. 03:17:00 so K&R3 won't ever happen 03:17:01 quite possibly 03:17:05 C99 was designed by committee 03:17:17 What to typeset, what to typeset... 03:17:18 some of the stuff in it is fairly good though 03:17:43 It's alright but it's much less of a coherent language than C89. 03:17:47 It feels half-done. 03:18:10 alise, what about % behaviour for negative numbers? 03:19:06 and also // is convenient. Oh and stdint.h is a *very* good idea for portability 03:19:11 See, I don't even know anything about that. I don't believe I've ever died of it. 03:19:17 // may be convenient but it's ugly. 03:19:25 stdint is yet another header file, big deal, we know how to learn those 03:19:25 and breaks on Usenet 03:19:38 urgh, they're working on C1X 03:19:38 ... 03:19:40 why oh why 03:19:40 C99 has a bunch of useful headers, actually 03:19:47 # Alignment specification (_Align specifier, alignof operator, aligned_alloc function) 03:19:48 # Multithreading support (_Thread_local storage-class specifier, header including thread creation/management functions, mutex, condition variable and thread-specific storage functionality) 03:19:52 _Hooray _Im _So _Excited 03:20:04 alise, if you need to read exactly a 32-bit int from a file you have some problems in C89 03:20:04 C1x multithreading? 03:20:12 hmm, standardising that would have to be a pain 03:20:13 Fun... Got smartcard and smartcard reader. The smartcard reader is compatible. The smartcard itself isn't. 03:20:25 AnMaster: you can't do that anyway without knowing the endianness 03:20:32 ais523, hm good point 03:20:38 * alise reluctantly installs Skype. 03:20:43 alise, alignment is useful for kernel/embedded 03:20:46 if you have an "exactly a 32-bit int", whatever's forcing it 32-bit is probably forcing a particular endianness at the same time 03:20:51 deal with x86 data structures 03:20:54 AnMaster: _I _Know 03:20:56 otherwise you'd have "a native int" and not care about the 32-bit-ness 03:20:58 AnMaster: _Fuck _The _Committee 03:21:06 alise, what is up with the leading underscores 03:21:07 ... 03:21:16 AnMaster: _C99 _Onwards _Do _This _For _All _Their _New _Names 03:21:20 oh 03:21:26 _See: _Bool, _Align, _Thread_local 03:21:31 well 03:21:32 _Isn't _It _Wonderful? 03:21:50 alise, stdbool.h has typedef _Bool bool though 03:21:57 Yay, header files. 03:22:05 lovely header files 03:22:05 Because reserving "bool" would be basically /murder/. 03:22:16 alise, it would break backward compat 03:22:22 Ohh, I'm so sad. 03:22:33 but yes threads 03:22:34 wtf 03:22:37 In fact I feel a tear coming on. Aww. 03:22:42 they should add directories before threads 03:22:54 now it is getting just pure ridiculous 03:23:07 But dude, SMP GigamegaMUMA. 03:23:15 NUMA* 03:23:22 MUMA. 03:23:29 wtf is MUMA 03:23:44 Ilari, compatible with what? 03:24:22 night 03:24:29 AnMaster: Whatever OS I have. 03:25:03 "I'm not even sure!" 03:25:24 (Debian Sqeeze on x64). 03:34:31 *sigh* 03:34:41 Nothing does vertical text right. 03:34:55 Granted, it's not *needed* for Japanese. It'd just be nice. 03:35:07 Quick! Someone name a short novel they want typesotten. 03:36:50 alise: Un momento 03:37:35 Must be in English, mind. (or have an English translation, of course) :P 03:38:11 Darn it; you should totally do Genji Monogatari. 03:38:30 Okay. I will not! 03:38:38 It is the first novel. 03:40:19 Arguable. Anyway I don't want to. 03:40:56 Okay, okay. 03:41:06 How do you feel about Swift? 03:41:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:42:18 very modest 03:42:42 If you like, then: "Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World, in Four Parts. By Lemuel Gulliver, First a Surgeon, and then a Captain of several Ships". 03:43:20 is that the actual title? or just a subtitle? 03:43:28 ais523: That's the actual title. 03:43:48 ais523: this is the 1700s 03:43:51 of course that's the actual title 03:44:08 ais523: also known as "Gulliver's Travels", a name never given to it by Swift. 03:44:30 yes, I know of the book 03:44:52 right 03:44:58 just not so obvious from the long title 03:45:03 Also, his Modest Proposal was in fact: "A Modest Proposal For Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being a Burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick". 03:45:30 I'm well aware of both that Modest Proposal in particular, and Modest Proposals in general 03:45:41 I /think/ I just got a dictatorship in B Nomic by proposing it and people voting FOR 03:46:01 Hah. 03:46:10 that's a boring way to get a B dictatorship 03:46:17 how am I meant to pull off scams if they pass even without scamming? 03:46:20 the great way is to make a proposal people really don't want but vote in anyway, and make that get you a dictatorship 03:46:23 just for the sheer confusion 03:46:46 just say "if you don't enact this proposal, era 2 will never have begun" 03:46:48 problem slved 03:46:49 *solved 03:47:09 I suspect B would question a mere statement to that regard 03:47:19 ais523: your proposal doesn't create a rule 03:47:26 also, why? it's happened like 500 times before :-) 03:47:45 Would've been perfect if you could've found the comment bug. 03:47:56 Say that if you aren't voted dictator, you will undo everything. 03:48:00 Not say how. 03:48:02 does it /need/ to create a rule? 03:48:07 here, at least, we can argue about whether I win or not 03:48:12 When you become dictator, retcon the commenting thing to have never happened. 03:48:19 besides, I /did/ find the comment bug 03:48:51 anyway, I care more about the proposal passing (because I get a win if I pass any proposal, with B's current gamestate), then about what it actually does 03:48:56 Onwards headed Bjorn; his destination was the Barregan camps of far away, but his intermediate destinations were, in order: the pub, the edge of town, the pub again, the edge of town again, maybe a few more visits to the pub, home, the pub, the edge of town, and finally the shops. 03:49:28 I hate to think what Bjorn's definition of "far" is 03:49:32 These he visited with stunning punctuality and energy, and he fit right in to their native cultures; he patted himself on the back for a job well done, deliberately forgot about the camps, and went home, content in knowing that he hadn't saved the world. 03:50:12 ais523: A few yards. 03:50:21 OK 03:50:28 I couldn't figure out whether it was a very short or very long distance 03:50:33 or both simultaneously 03:50:35 Actually, now even I can't tell. 03:50:36 Let's say both. 03:52:04 As Bjorn woke the next morning, he was, much to his chagrin, reminded of his exploits-to-be by his least favourite region of the brain, which was whatever part stored memories; Bjorn wasn't really sure how the brain operated, apart from that he wished it wouldn't do so in such an efficient and unforgetting manner. So he trundled off again to the pub, and finally got up the energy, spirit, courage, and complete lack of anything else to do to leave the town, 03:52:04 and he did so. On the way, he ran into a merchant, and was planning to buy whatever he was selling, when suddenly, out of nowhere, the sun disappeared. 03:52:06 * oerjan suspects Bjorn can't tell, either 03:52:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:52:23 -!- augur has joined. 03:52:34 "Now wherefore's that, ey?" inquired Bjorn, while pointing a finger meant to be accusing but that actually just looked rather peculiar at the merchant. 03:53:22 "I've no idea what sir's talkin' 'bout, sir, though if sir woz talkin' 'bout buying me fine goods, perhaps I'd be more knowledgeable about that there subject." replied the merchant. 03:53:35 "Well," said Bjorn, "I'd like to buy the sun back." 03:54:13 The merchant tottered away uneasily, and decided to get a job that involved fewer crazy people. Say, telemarketing. Bjorn voyaged on through the dark for maybe three meters before giving up and resting for the night. 03:56:09 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=91808&id=105695596138468 03:56:47 (yes, it's the world's most stupid comic, it says so right?) 03:57:12 Bjorn was a great fan of verbose verbiage, and had a long extent of time in which to exercise this hobby of his upon meeting a priestly figure in a nearby village; not a priest exactly, or at least Bjorn had no reason to believe he was a priest, but he had a Church of Him going, so there was that. The priest spoke from the Bible of Him, which was a load of nonsense to Bjorn, and they ended up getting lost in their verbosity. A few days later, Bjorn emerged 03:57:12 from the village, in tatters but alive. 03:57:41 oerjan: ha ha, i understand norwegian 03:57:55 i have my doubts 03:58:13 (obviously i mainly linked it for the name) 03:58:48 "In pursuit of Liberty," Bjorn had extolled to the priest-alike, "one must sacrifice many things such as Essential Toiletries, Calculating Devices and Mechanical Toys such as Potable Timepieces." 03:59:03 "Don't you mean portable timepieces?" said the priest-alike. 03:59:07 "No," responded Bjorn. 03:59:19 * Sgeo ponders non-calculating computers 03:59:34 alise: I suppose most liquids make rather inaccurate potable timepieces 03:59:40 via the rate of evaporation 03:59:49 or dripping, in a suitable container 03:59:56 ais523: this is exactly the way Bjorn thinks, except he thinks it rather more dumbly. 03:59:58 very honest and straight forward computers 04:00:52 ais523: Mmm, water clocks. 04:01:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:01:17 -!- augur has joined. 04:01:21 "will be considered non-computable until further research proves otherwise" about a trivial stack language 04:01:25 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Filth 04:01:25 lol 04:01:27 water clocks in at 10 m / s 04:02:05 well this _is_ madk, expect further research to happen quickly 04:03:28 wow, he's been gnoming faster than anyone else 04:03:34 all the spam is buried under a deluge of legit edits 04:03:46 ais523: as I said, IEP syndrome 04:03:55 IEP? 04:04:03 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DoubleFuck&curid=1899&diff=18097&oldid=8583 04:04:07 linking isomorphism 04:04:09 is not a legit edit 04:04:14 it's like linking "the" on wikipedia. 04:04:22 ais523: Initial Esolang Prolificity 04:04:27 ah, OK 04:04:36 alise: I don't quite think it's overlinking 04:04:44 ais523: yeah um he just went and linked every instance of isomorphism 04:04:50 I know 04:04:50 even twice in the same paragraph 04:04:52 which is very anti-wiki 04:04:53 I check every edit for spam 04:05:40 i ... think someone should tell madk to slow down. 04:05:59 you can do so yourself, if you like 04:06:15 oh wait hm, filth is not madk's language, he only interpreted it 04:07:03 * alise wonders about a "global" brainfuck-alike i.e. where all operations are on the entire tape (string) 04:07:09 (finite but arbitrary string) 04:07:49 well the trivial version sounds useless, since all cells would have the same value... 04:08:24 hm maybe + and - could do carry and borrow to the next cell? 04:09:01 except then exiting loops would need all tape to right be 0 04:09:11 that sounds fun 04:09:13 *the right 04:09:13 would that work? 04:09:52 i doubt it. 04:10:13 well the carry/borrow might work 04:10:28 mm 04:11:56 oerjan: but if we say the string is finite? 04:12:27 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:12:41 well ending loops only when the whole tape is 0 is rather weak 04:13:32 naturally 04:13:42 maybe if we had multiple tapes? 04:14:28 then you could probably simulate a counter machine 04:15:05 anyway, good night 04:15:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye). 04:24:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:35:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:36:07 -!- augur has joined. 04:38:17 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:39:14 bye 04:39:18 bye 04:39:23 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:42:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:45:18 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 04:46:07 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:46:12 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 04:50:25 * Sgeo combines CakeProphet with 5" bread and pays $5 05:13:43 -!- adadnl has joined. 05:14:00 is magic just getting something from nothing? 05:14:28 -!- adadnl has quit (Client Quit). 05:14:34 Uhhhhh 05:14:37 wtf 05:16:48 Uhhhh, wtf. 05:17:05 Agreed. 05:34:29 lol 05:38:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:59:42 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 06:35:22 Probably not quite the shortest helloworld (but working): 118e8e818e8e8e8W11188e8e8e818e8e818W11188e8e818e818e8e8eeWW111888W118e818e818e8e8W118e8e8e8e8W118e818e8e818e818e818W11188e8e818e818e818e818eW111888W11188e8e818e818e8e8W11188e8e8e818e8e8W118e8e8e8e818W118e818e8W0P 06:41:07 Much simpler one: 118e41OHWe41OeWe41OlWe41OlWe41OoWe41O,We41O We41OWWe41OoWe41OrWe41OlWe41OdWe41O!W41OW0P 06:44:06 That code actually uses code memory operators. 06:47:53 how is the hello world encoded in that? 06:48:07 oh, I've just spotted the letters of hello world interspersed among the general mess 06:48:36 That in the program is actually one of the characters in message. 06:50:31 The starting part is 118 (which loads 2 into stack), each character except last is printed by 'e410W', last character is done by '410W'. '0P' is exit the program with status 0. 06:53:15 I removed the swap operators and replaced them with code memory operators. Makes it really "fun" to use unbounded memory. 06:53:47 5 is write code memory and 6 is append code memory. 07:35:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:36:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 07:44:49 Ok, that is a LOT of carbohydrates I consumed these past few days 07:45:13 One serving of this soda is about 10% DV for carbohydrates (all sugar) 07:45:18 Plus my box of pasta... 07:45:29 Oh, I've been drinking a LOT of this soda 07:45:53 Welcome to American dietary patterns. 07:46:11 I feel sugary 07:47:16 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 07:48:38 SAD, or what was the term... 07:49:38 My understanding is that it's not possible to get diabetes from sugar consumption 07:50:12 I wouldn't be sure about that (especially if there are other stuff that could enhance damage sugar does)... 07:50:48 Wheither sugar alone can cause diabetes... Maybe, maybe not. 07:51:11 I think I shouldn't have had soda right before bed 07:51:15 But this stuff's ADDICTIVE 07:52:04 Cream Soda 07:53:09 One diagram I printed out blames fructose (sugar), linolic acid (soft fats) and gluten (grains). But gluten is not the only nasty thing in grains. 07:53:45 * Sgeo had a lot of pasta tonight 07:53:47 What IS know is that sugar + refined flour => Trouble. 07:53:49 Just like every night 07:54:11 *known 07:54:46 I'd say the single most worrisome thing about American diets is not the amount of single things. It's the *total amount*. 07:55:09 Shovelling down a day's worth of meals a meal is not exactly conducive to good health. 07:55:23 om nom nom nom 07:55:49 Just how you think body responds if fatty tissue is stealing energy? 07:56:16 Uh. Omnomnom? 07:59:55 1) Provoking more hunger to replace the energy lost and 2) Decreasing enegy consumption. Do these two sound familiar? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:19 And what you think happens if fatty tissue is stealing energy? 08:00:56 So... Fatty produces fatty tissue. Fuck. That explains how people freaking balloon. 08:01:58 * Sgeo doesn't really have to worry about such weight gain 08:02:03 Unless it's relative or something 08:02:11 I've always been on the thin side 08:02:15 That energy gets stored as fat. And it won't be released easily. 08:02:38 I weigh 130 lbs, so I'm not really worried about what I eat making me get fat. 08:02:48 wareya: Unless you're 3'. 08:02:52 In which case HOLY FUCK 08:02:56 lol 08:03:04 I'm 5 foot 6 or so 08:04:14 Some hypotheses say diabetes type II results when one tries to get fatter but one can't get fatter anymore. And that limit can be quite low, even within normal BMI. 08:04:52 I think I 5'4" or around there 08:04:59 Don't remember offhand 08:05:06 fat cell size limit? olo 08:05:31 Around 110lbs 08:05:40 111 08:05:58 I remember because I weighed myself recently to see if I was eligible to be a marrow donor 08:06:17 I'm also eligible to give blood, but my dad doesn't want me to due to my nutritional issues. 08:08:16 In normal persons, if they get fatter, leptin secretion increases, which decreases hunger and increases energy consumption. 08:08:42 Wait, can you rephrase that? 08:10:58 Leptin reduces apetite (reducing energy intake) and increases energy consumption. And the more fat mass there is, the more leptin gets secreted. 08:12:29 This is integral part of feedback loop that (tries to) control body weight. 08:14:44 -!- augur has joined. 08:15:00 What I say is the single most worrisome thing about SAD is that it includes some stuffs that cause biochemical damage that then manifests as variety of health problems. 08:15:47 SAD? 08:16:02 Standard American Diet. 08:19:39 There have been experiments on what happens when one eats amounts far beyond what one needs: 1) Overeating is not fun (same as what happens on Caloric Restriction). 2) Energy consumption goes way up (essentially inverse of CR) . 3) The fat gained is very easily lost (inverse of CR). 08:25:57 I think with food "what" is much bigger worry than "how much"... 08:46:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:35:37 -!- nooga has joined. 10:31:00 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds). 10:40:54 haha 10:41:20 I just concluded from this invoice that my mobile carrier use MiB for data traffic, while my phone use MB 10:41:26 that is like the reverse of the usual 10:45:44 AnMaster: End of saga: the fcam folks said next version will use type 4 in that field, because they'd like their files to be readable with dcraw too. (And even if the authot condescends to fixing it, there's a lot of dcraw-derived code floating around.) 10:46:25 fizzie, ah 10:48:43 Strange; this latest N900 firmware has split the data counters in two ("home network" and "roaming network"), but the home network stays at zero while the roaming network counter keeps increasing. 10:49:28 fizzie, very strange indeed 10:49:52 fizzie, hm btw, does the n900 use a PIN code or does it use a more linuxy user/password login? 10:50:12 or both? 10:50:40 There's the pin code for phone/SIM side, and then a lock code for booting/unlocking. 10:51:01 fizzie, ah 10:51:07 The lock code is unfortunately limited to 8 numeric digits. :/ 10:51:36 fizzie, couldn't that be somewhat easily modified? 10:51:43 after all it is full and unlocked linux 10:52:21 Possibly, but I don't know if anyone's done that. You'd probably need to modify the unlocking sreen UI. 10:53:27 fizzie, ah 10:53:38 Actually the screen accepts up to 10 digits, but only first 8 are significant; for that I think someone had a fix already. 10:54:43 haha 10:59:36 Ah, maemo bug #10941: "Home network data connection detected as roaming (Saunalahti, Finland)" 10:59:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:59:46 Seems I'm not the only one, then. 10:59:53 Not the only what? 11:01:29 Only one with this bug. It's nothing very interesting, check them logs if you must. 11:01:37 Very off-topicy and so on. 11:04:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:04:51 AnMaster: "Nokia comment: "We cannot do anything. Saunalahti SIM is roaming in Elisa network. And we cannot in a consistent and general way detect that this Saunalahti is part of Elisa. Only way to fix this would mean maintaining a list of such operators that roam in their home network which is not practical."" 11:05:14 fizzie, roaming in home network 11:05:15 wtf 11:05:45 Saunalahti is one of those virtual operators, they use Elisa's network. 11:05:56 oh 11:06:20 Apparently some newer Saunalahti SIMs have the correct numbers so that they work correctly. 11:06:34 hm 11:07:02 This SIM card is probably at least 7 years old. 11:07:16 ah 11:07:32 fizzie, strange it does 3G then. I had to get a new SIM card to get 3G working 11:07:59 but maybe that is because the network menu lists both [2G icon] TELIA and [3G Icon] Telia 11:09:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:09:38 I have a "secondary SIM" for the 3G stick, maybe that one would work right. It'd just be a bit silly to use it, since it has some really strange trickery to make both cards work at the same time. 11:10:03 fizzie, hah 11:10:24 fizzie, do you roam often? 11:10:34 if not it doesn't seem that much of an issue 11:11:21 Not really, but I'd like to keep the "ask for data connections in roaming network + warn if much data is sent" flags on, just in case. 11:11:28 fizzie, ah 11:11:37 fizzie, that could cause some issues indeed 11:12:04 Currently I keep the ask-for-permission on anyway, and the just ack it whenever it asks, so it's not such a huge problem. 11:13:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:15:43 -!- tombom has joined. 11:19:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:20:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:22:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:23:43 -!- nooga has joined. 11:24:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:24:37 oerjan! 11:24:46 * oerjan hides 11:25:20 The topic hasn't changed in a ridiculously long time... 11:25:38 ridiculous for this channel, anyhow 11:25:44 Indeed. 11:26:51 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:27:05 Hmm, to what can we change it (dear Liza, dear Liza)? 11:31:20 -!- nooga has joined. 11:32:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:40:53 heyo 11:41:10 and how 11:41:13 who was here earlier as i was kvetching about java? 11:41:27 * oerjan hides again 11:41:30 not me 11:41:40 oh dont worry, its all sorted now :D 11:41:49 did you ever visit kurzweilai.net? 11:42:38 i don't recall, but i've heard a little about kurzweil 11:42:48 *read 11:43:10 well the old site, prior to the 5th of this month, had a feature called The Brain 11:43:31 hm 11:43:45 which was basically a java-based mind-map GUI interface to a very minor encyclopedia of transhumanist/singularitarian relevant articles 11:44:23 unfortunately, the new site doesnt have this, and the archival version of the old site is unnavigable for the relevant purposes 11:45:12 ic 11:45:16 but the data was all still there! 11:45:51 and ive downloaded it, fixed it up to not require java, and now i have a copy of the whole thing :D 11:47:07 soon you'll find out they took it down because it was approaching evil sentience. you've doomed us all! 11:48:41 :p 11:48:55 unless HTML can compute, i dont think theres much to worry about x3 11:49:13 -!- AnMaster has set topic: My other car is a cdr | Exciting new features!!! OK not really | Topic updated | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 11:49:19 oerjan, there ^ 11:49:54 AnMaster: O KAY 11:50:14 1199 articles, oerjan! all for us! 11:50:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:50:33 -!- augur has joined. 11:55:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:56:58 -!- tombom_ has joined. 11:59:10 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:26:08 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 12:26:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:34:45 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow). 12:37:01 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 12:43:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:43:48 -!- augur has joined. 12:47:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:53:58 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:57:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:30:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:30:49 -!- augur has joined. 14:12:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:12:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:13:55 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number). 14:17:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:17:44 -!- augur has joined. 14:17:46 -!- mquin has quit (Quit: boing). 14:22:06 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 14:48:55 -!- nooga has joined. 14:52:19 hello 15:14:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:14:20 -!- augur has joined. 15:22:22 -!- mquin has joined. 15:24:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:09 -!- augur has joined. 15:25:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:15 -!- augur has joined. 15:43:44 -!- Arzgarb has joined. 15:54:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:54:24 -!- augur has joined. 16:13:56 -!- Arzgarb has left (?). 16:16:09 -!- ClaraVC has joined. 16:16:22 -!- ClaraVC has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:31:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:31:15 -!- augur has joined. 17:17:01 -!- AnMaster has joined. 17:17:11 -!- AnMaster has quit (Client Quit). 17:30:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:30:59 -!- augur has joined. 17:48:51 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:05:22 http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1023 18:07:04 http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1025 18:45:53 -!- Gregor has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:48:09 -!- Gregor has joined. 19:09:41 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16456 <-- argh 19:12:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:17:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:34:51 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:37:42 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:46:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:32:41 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:45:30 -!- tombom has joined. 20:53:25 guys, are there any algorithms that automatically detect and analyse encryption? 20:59:32 I'd imagine that there's some encryption designed not to be detected 21:00:05 Impossible in the general case; probably algorithms for specific encryption schemes though. 21:00:27 In the general case, you've got to deal with stuff like one-time pads. 21:00:49 Which are, without the pad, undistinguishable from random noise. 21:01:55 One goal of all encryption algorithms is (generally) for encrypted data to be indistinguishable from noise. 21:02:20 thats what i figured 21:02:33 Yes; a one-time pad provides this perfectly. Most others get absurdly close, and probably can't be distinguished readily without metadata. 21:02:45 If encryption algorithm is decent, its output appears to be random noise. 21:03:07 Effectively most others are generating a one-time pad in a deterministic way so that somebody else can generate the same pad (symmetric ones anyway) 21:03:09 But who regularly transmits random noise? 21:03:10 but im curious tho, then, how normal cryptography these days can be detected at all and defeated even 21:03:20 If you see random noise, it's probably encrypted? 21:03:24 Only possiblity to identify encrypted data from random data is via associated metadata and other structures. 21:03:51 *decently encrypted data 21:04:00 Sgeo: Not necessarily. 21:04:10 Well, if you just want to distinguish encrypted data from other data, you just discount the possibility of random data since most people don't just throw random data around :P 21:04:12 There are, in fact, transmitters of random noise. 21:04:39 i mean, if you have some sort of pseudorandom number generator, and both the source and the destination have these synched up 21:05:02 Gregor: nc how can anyone decrypt this without knowing what the cipher numbers are? 21:05:03 :D 21:05:27 augur: Pretty much the ENTIRE point of encryption is that they can't X-P 21:05:57 augur: Exploiting weaknesses in the pseudorandom number generator and letter frequencies in the plaintext. 21:06:06 Gregor: right, but i mean, i take it that the simple transposition ciphers are considered much weaker than public key cryptography 21:06:28 Perhaps the PRNG cycles its state every 40 characters or something? 21:06:37 prng? 21:06:37 That's one shitty PRNG :P 21:06:44 Gregor: Yes, it is. 21:06:45 ph right 21:06:48 well 21:07:04 * Ilari is stuffing iceweasel full of extensions... 21:07:07 i was thinking more like, if you used a chaotic function 21:07:25 rx(1-x) for r in the chaotic domain 21:07:32 just as a simple example 21:07:47 completely and utterly deterministic, but presumably looks like noise 21:07:54 augur: With a lot of knowledge about the function in question and frequencies of sequences in the plaintext, *maybe* one can figure out something. 21:07:57 * Sgeo quickly learns why even in one's own code, one should make arguments accept the most general type of object possible 21:08:14 Sgeo: NEEDS MOAR HASKELL 21:08:18 lol 21:08:21 haskell! \o/ 21:08:29 aww no myndzi :( 21:08:46 From what I've seen, a Real Cryptologist(tm) considers a system broken even if you can write a distinguisher for it that takes less work than what its strength is purported to be. 21:08:47 and no egobot either 21:09:02 EgoBot is EgoBroken. 21:09:11 For the time being. 21:09:35 for the beam tying 21:09:52 fizzie: There's a distinction between a reduction of the strength of system and a practical exploit. 21:09:53 By some standards, MD5 is considered broken, so there are kind of various levels of brokenness 21:10:18 Sgeo: One can generate MD5 collisions; hence, it is broken. 21:10:21 Fun Iceweasel misfeature: Hit back when extension download is in progress and the install will fail. 21:11:01 pikhq, that only makes md5 useless for some things 21:11:12 Erm, assuming that something else hasn't been found recently 21:11:30 Eg. first Applied Cryptography journal-entry google-hit for "distinguisher" has an article about a distinguisher for the Shannon stream cipher that "only" needs 2^107 keystream words (and an array of 2^32 counters) to distinguish it from random noise. 21:11:30 You're referring to the ability to generate A and B that both have the same hash 21:11:44 It limits md5's usage to a mere check for corruption, really. 21:12:39 -!- EgoBot has joined. 21:12:43 !echo I'M ALIVE 21:12:44 I'M ALIVE 21:12:54 OK, so "the time being" wasn't very long :P 21:13:52 And also password "encryption". 21:14:21 MD5 is far too fast for that. :) 21:15:02 fizzie: so .. does that mean that encryption is pretty rock solid unless someone knows a lot of details? 21:15:07 You could go all DES3 and do like MD5^6000 21:16:12 Sgeo: One can generate MD5 collisions; hence, it is broken. <-- one can in theory do this for any hash given enough time. However, what I think you mean is that "one can generate such a collision in feasible time on existing (though high end) hardware" 21:16:32 AnMaster: Yes. 21:16:48 I mean, one can actually *go out and produce real-world collisions if you feel like it*. 21:17:01 pikhq, I mean, given enough time I could generate a SHA-512 collision with an Intel 80286 too! 21:17:05 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 21:17:13 High-end hardware such as gaming consoles. (I think the "rogue CA from MD5 collisions" attack demonstration used 200 PS3's.) 21:17:27 probably heat death of universe first, though that is mere conjecture. Haven't made any calculations on it. 21:17:44 AnMaster: Yes, but you may well have the 80286 suffer from radioactive decay first. :P 21:17:50 fizzie, PS3 does have that rather high end Cell CPU 21:18:07 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:18:07 pikhq, hah, didn't think of that one 21:18:11 AnMaster: High-end 5 years ago. 21:18:31 !haskell let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate.drop 2 kol)cycle[1,2] in take 100 kol 21:18:56 !haskell main = print $ let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate.drop 2 kol)cycle[1,2] in take 100 kol 21:19:06 pikhq, still I seem to remember reading that Cell is way more suited to this task than common x86-64 CPUs and such are. 21:19:18 Yes. 21:19:27 GPUs. 21:19:36 indeed 21:20:32 Note: EgoBot might not actually work :P 21:20:39 !c printf("Hi") 21:20:44 Hi 21:20:48 Or, it might *shrugs* 21:20:56 !haskell main = print $ let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate(drop 2 kol)$cycle[1,2]) in take 100 kol 21:20:59 [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2] 21:21:16 They call it a SPU, for "Synergistic Processing Unit", for maximum buzzword compliance. 21:22:13 Sinner-jizztic processing unit 21:23:33 "Each certificate we purchased from RapidSSL cost us USD 45. However, the CA allowed us to reissue each certificate up to 20 times for free, which meant that a single certificate request cost us only USD 2.25. In total, we spent USD 657 on purchasing certificates for this project." But on the other hand: now you have your own CA, and can have all the certificates you could ever want, for free! (Even for other people's domains.) 21:23:54 XD 21:34:44 Heh... This one site, ISP's recursive resolver resolves it, my own recursive resolver doesn't (SERVFAIL). 21:35:08 If I set CD bit in query, then I get NXDOMAIN. 21:36:12 Your ISP's resolver is probably broken. 21:36:43 ISP's resolver doesn't have DNSSEC enabled. My own has (TA list includes just TA for .). 21:36:59 * Sgeo works in a demonic lair 21:37:35 Yes. '.' is DNSSec-enabled now. 21:38:39 Is 8.8.8.8 DNSSEC enabled? 21:38:52 No idea. 21:41:09 -!- MizardX has joined. 21:44:09 Sgeo, I think so: dig +dnssec @8.8.8.8 www.nic.cat 22:09:18 Hey, I think one of my boxes has a motherboard that's on coreboot's (impressively long) list of supported motherboards. (I don't think I'm experimental enough to try it out, though.) 22:17:20 -!- wareya has joined. 22:21:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:30:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:30:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:32:09 Yay, back home at last. And more relevantly, back with my Linux laptop. 22:34:55 * Phantom_Hoover finally installs Agda 22:37:28 * Sgeo ponders Self 22:37:31 Where's alise? 22:39:51 Does he never not come here when he can? 22:43:08 So anyway, I was wondering earlier today how one would represent the computable reals in a proof checker? 22:44:44 My first and so far only idea was to have a function and a proof that it converges. 22:45:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:46:00 oerjan, ais523? 22:47:25 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:48:00 a function from naturals to rationals, you mean? 22:48:08 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 22:50:05 In theory, all computable reals should be mappable to a natural, I think 22:50:20 hm technically such a function could converge (and thus to a computable real) even if there is no proof of that fact >:D 22:50:38 I never quite believed that the CRs were countable. 22:51:06 I'm pretty sure you can diagonalise them. 22:51:20 they're probably not countable internally to a constructive/computable logic prover 22:51:31 Oh god, Agda is giving me Mysterious Parse Errors. 22:51:46 Wait, module definition. 22:51:47 Ah. 22:52:06 yes, which gives you a noncomputable real. 22:52:15 Does it? 22:52:28 Surely you can make a list of them computably. 22:52:31 assuming you start with a list of all computable reals, it should 22:53:22 not necessarily. as i said, it may be unprovable whether a particular function gives a computable real 22:53:54 OK, so then you can have a thing that goes along the (computable) list, then finds the (computable) nth digit of the nth term, then changes it and concatenates it onto its diagonal. 22:54:08 and there might be computable reals that have only nonprovable functions converging to it 22:54:35 Wait, is that in response to my idea on how to represent them? 22:55:01 not just 22:55:11 it's a common representation, i think 22:55:24 but i'm pointing out you cannot make a list 22:55:33 Ah, OK. 22:55:40 But surely that makes them uncountable? 22:55:49 a _computable_ list 22:55:59 Ohh. 22:56:26 OK, can we go back to the CR-as-function-and-proof-of-convergence idea? 22:56:40 if you can solve the halting problem etc., you can easily make a list 22:56:53 the thing is there might not be a proof 22:57:01 Oh. 22:57:12 So how can you tell if it's a CR? 22:57:17 you cannot 22:57:21 AAA 22:57:49 OK, I'll have to stick for CRs for which the generating function is provably converging. 22:58:42 right... in which case you can make a list of them, and when you diagonalize i _think_ you get a CR for which there is no proof 22:59:06 *a computable list 22:59:41 Nonono, I was wondering if it was a practical way of manipulating members of a subset of the CRs in a proof assistant such as Agda. 23:00:12 oh hm 23:00:42 I'm not sure at all about how to do the proof of convergence. 23:00:50 well i'm not familiar with proof assistants so i don't know how these subtle differences affect things 23:01:07 All functions must be provably terminating, for a start. 23:01:33 Phantom_Hoover: well the proof would be specific to each function, obviously 23:02:13 Yes, that's the annoying bit. 23:02:59 hm, a proof assistant _might_ allow you to prove things about all computable reals (by logic), despite not being able to represent all of them with a proof that they are CRs 23:03:54 Once you have the proof bit, most other things are trivial. 23:04:04 Well, not quite. 23:04:23 If a and b are CRs, is ab? 23:04:31 And a+b? 23:04:41 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:01 those are easy, you just multiply or add each rational value of the functions 23:05:14 Excellent. 23:05:42 -!- wareya has joined. 23:06:37 Hmm, you can get at least one constructor for the convergence proposition, then. 23:07:53 data Converges : (N -> Q) where 23:08:41 _,_ : Converges f -> Converges g -> Converges (\x -> f x * g x) 23:08:46 Or something like that. 23:10:40 The same for f x + g x. 23:11:20 This is deep maths; I have no idea how this would work. 23:11:23 i'm sure alise would be better to talk about all this with, he's done it all before i think :) 23:11:43 Awww. 23:11:53 Where's the fun in being told how to do it? 23:12:25 well, for one thing your definition of "converges" should probably be that it's a "cauchy sequence" 23:13:12 essentially, that the values of the function eventually get close to _each other_ 23:13:44 I'm pretty sure it can't use native functions, come to think of it. 23:18:18 I assume it's impossible to tell if a function from N to Q is a Cauchy sequence? 23:19:48 of course 23:20:47 OK, so by "function" we mean "code for a function". 23:21:09 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice's_theorem 23:21:21 Ooh, references! 23:21:59 OK, but I gave up on proving convergence for everything. 23:22:00 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:22:17 The set only works on those functions that converge. 23:22:35 And can be proven converg...y? 23:22:49 convergent 23:22:58 -!- wareya has joined. 23:23:29 Thanks. 23:24:08 Hmm, perhaps you can have a type Convergent the constructors of which build a code for a convergent function. 23:24:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:24:50 Making non-trivial functions constructable would be tricky. 23:27:50 -!- wareya has joined. 23:27:51 -!- relet has joined. 23:30:13 Well, to start off with, k is always convergent. 23:36:39 Aagh, I don't know enough to do this properly. 23:40:53 walk -> 23:41:01 Walk? 23:41:04 run -> 23:41:21 fly -? 23:41:34 are you not familiar with oklonotation? 23:41:40 No. 23:41:50 it means i'm going away to take a walk, now 23:42:16 admittedly oklopol may have stopped using it. 23:42:25 at least as much. 23:42:30 -> 23:42:50 Oh, right. 23:42:56 make tea ->, then. 23:43:06 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:46:33 cig -> 23:50:24 has anyone read A Deepness in the Sky? 23:50:36 <- cig 23:50:45 Not me. 23:50:59 I can Google it and pretend to have, though. 23:53:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).