00:00:06 cpressey: You just updated... 00:00:26 I won't defend Plan 9 strongly, but slapping a POSIX compatibility layer on it doesn't sound appetizing 00:00:41 cpressey: A Yarvin disciple. 00:00:41 New one. 00:00:48 ehirdiphone: Yes I did, but it's not 100% complete, one sec 00:00:51 ...catseye.tc, to complete my utterance. 00:01:05 cpressey, um you realise I said we would slap plan9 compat on windows and such 00:01:08 Active Worlds Inc. > Microsoft 00:01:09 not the other way around 00:01:10 ... 00:01:11 ehirdiphone: No, just someone who has read that post and mused about it. 00:01:18 I hope ehirdiphone realise this too 00:01:18 I think Nock is actually pretty lame :/ 00:01:27 ehirdiphone, right? 00:01:28 Well, it's a nice esolang 00:01:33 cpressey: Nock sucks. Urbit is better. 00:01:38 AnMaster: I realise. 00:01:52 ehirdiphone, and I say it could be done, but I'm not the one to do it 00:01:57 cpressey: Urbit approaches a decent idea. Especially the networking. 00:02:19 When I contacted AWI, they were really helpful in .. what they thought was a lost password situation 00:02:22 But Urbit is just an opaque function really, as one of the comments pointed out. Which is not a bad thing. 00:02:28 ehirdiphone, oh and we need dynamic linking to pull this off. So you will hate it anyway 00:02:31 *shrug* 00:02:41 Here [with an MSN issue], my friend's giving a lot of information to prove that it's really him, and it's "not enough" 00:02:45 So I think Yarvin's a bit confused, but he makes some nice analogies and such. 00:02:48 Sgeo, "what they thought"? 00:02:57 ehirdiphone: The basic trick of Microcosm is to just have a seperate ABI running on one's OS. :P 00:03:45 AnMaster: You're a purposefully-inflammatory troll who has no unique ideas that are not boring and prides himself on purposeful misunderstanding. Just STFU, at least to me. 00:03:58 AnMaster, I didn't actually lose my password, I needed something else 00:04:02 pikhq, ... what is it with ehirdiphone? 00:04:13 ehirdiphone, you are the one trolling here. 00:04:25 I'm more open about disliking you than the others. 00:04:34 That's a thing, I guess. 00:04:56 (The others being a welldefined set of people I won't name.) 00:05:49 ehirdiphone: Now the update's complete. Stupid XHTML cleanser stripped out my applet tag the first time. 00:06:06 cpressey: I just meant the news post. 00:06:13 Can't use java on iPhone... 00:06:17 Now to pump out four or five more languages, zzo38-style, and I'll have 60. 00:06:35 ehirdiphone: Well, don't worry about it -- it's not exactly earth-shattering. 00:06:48 Oh speaking of which, did anyone catch what Knuth announced? 00:06:49 Make a calculus ala lambda, pi, object calculus. 00:07:03 Nope. New TeX update? 00:07:05 ehirdiphone: Coroutine calculus. 00:07:05 cpressey: Not yet. 00:07:13 He's admitting to being mortal? 00:07:23 cpressey: You mean pi calculus. 00:07:32 ehirdiphone: I thought that was processes. 00:07:44 cpressey: Close enough. 00:07:56 I need a raised-eyebrow smiley. 00:07:59 Do coroutine calculus then. 00:08:02 Can't use java on iPhone... <-- even my old old nokia can use java. Not sure about applets though, but I think it might 00:08:06 cpressey: 5:30 Pacific time. Still a couple more hours. 00:08:10 Sigma calculus? 00:08:40 AnMaster: I don't even give half a shit and you know it. 00:08:42 I need a raised-eyebrow smiley. <-- try ^_^ or such 00:08:47 I was merely stating a fact. 00:09:13 ^_^ looks too much like a pleased Pokemon mumblesomething. 00:09:24 cpressey, haha 00:09:28 More to the point, ^_^ looks nothing like a raised eyebrow 00:09:39 cpressey, what about -_^ 00:09:43 one raised eyebrow 00:09:45 Closer 00:10:04 Maybe I should go with o_O 00:10:09 cpressey: So what operations? Coroutine creation, yield(v), next(coro), while x:=next(coro). 00:10:14 What else? 00:10:20 cpressey, hm possibly 00:11:02 ehirdiphone: I thought they'd be like lambdas somehow, but with a "yield" combinator. Haven't really thought about it. 00:11:06 night 00:11:21 cpressey: Nah, make it purist :) 00:11:43 Like pi calc. 00:11:55 Eh, it's been done. Probably. 00:12:32 cpressey: Invent a language like banana scheme except you can increase the level by one with a function 00:12:48 To haltcheck more programs. 00:12:57 I suggest calling it (1up) 00:13:09 No, I'm not gonna do that. 00:13:11 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:13:14 Not because I think it is a bad idea. 00:13:21 But because there are bounds on my time. 00:13:41 It's not hard to invent that :P 00:13:43 I encourage you to have a go at it. 00:13:54 You need to beat zzo! 00:13:58 It is VITAL. 00:14:06 In some sense, not possible. 00:14:21 In another sense, already have. 00:14:30 Does he create languages faster than light? 00:14:37 o_O 00:15:02 ehirdiphone: That response was pure, pure brilliance. 00:15:03 You said impossible to beat :P 00:15:20 I guess plain lightspeed would work too. 00:15:44 Wait 00:15:54 -!- yiyus has joined. 00:15:59 At the speed of light, all languages have infinite mass 00:16:05 Gregor-W: I did NOT even notice the tim pun 00:16:12 *tine travel 00:16:14 ehirdiphone: D'AWWWWW :( 00:16:16 *time 00:16:20 That's why it was brililant :P 00:16:25 *brilliant >_> 00:16:31 Gregor-W: My subconscious is hilarious XD 00:16:58 cpressey: Does that mean that as languages approach the speed of light, they become C++? 00:17:12 Ewww 00:17:23 Or PL/I 00:17:34 Gregor-W: Performance joke 00:17:38 Intentional? 00:17:45 Unintentional! 00:17:51 XD 00:18:07 This is the subconscious party 00:22:19 Well, let's pretend we can measure this. Zzo38 appears to have 59 languages listed on his wikipedia user page. 00:22:50 I have 56 listed, which is fuzzy, but let's arbitrarily say, canonically so. So I need at least 4 more. 00:23:50 WTFBBQ is all this then? 00:24:41 Last I checked, Wouter had 59 languages listed, 47 of which had actual names. 00:25:31 Checked again; he hasn't updated his list since Bear (2005). 00:26:17 So "first one to 60" would be a reasonable competition, but one in which I have a significant handicap. 00:27:14 Gah, what a way to suck the fun out of it. 00:27:51 I'll just keep on... whatever it is that I do. -in'. 00:28:18 I still don't get it at all :P 00:29:15 Gregor-W: ehirdiphone has told me "You need to beat zzo!" In terms of number of languages invented. 00:29:40 Ahhh 00:30:16 I prefer to write few, awesome languages :P 00:30:56 cpressey goes for quantity + quality 00:31:01 I like to think I hold certain minimum standards of awesomeness. Or was it gnarliness? 00:31:10 zzo goes for...um... quantity 00:31:34 Wouter is lying. He can't actually program. 00:31:41 I go for ... other, equally-esoteric but less-languagey-sometimes projects? 00:31:51 Yes it is all a NIGERIAN SCAM 00:32:12 To take our aardappels. 00:32:24 Night. 00:32:55 Bye. 00:32:59 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 00:33:16 I leave too now. 00:33:19 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:46:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:47:41 I feel like I'm taking a trip into script-kiddy central 00:59:17 -!- Oranjer has joined. 00:59:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 01:00:51 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:07:54 -!- Pitagorin has joined. 01:11:51 -!- Pitagorin has left (?). 01:57:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:00:30 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:00:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:24:12 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 02:24:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:36:06 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:49:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:14:51 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:15:35 -!- coppro has joined. 03:28:06 http://www.kongregate.com/games/Coolio_Niato/lighbot-2-0 03:33:35 OMFG 03:33:41 MicroXwin. 03:34:06 It's a windowing system that is *API* compatible with libX11. While not sucking. 03:34:30 It's teensy. 03:35:30 Gosh darnit it's nonfree. 03:37:14 but it's not on the X protocol? 03:38:16 Not the X protocol. 03:48:55 Hot shit. GTK runs directly on the framebuffer. 03:54:15 okay, new idea 03:54:56 must make a language where something called a "dragon" is very complex, but somewhat useful 03:55:10 this is so that a comment called "here be dragons" is both valid and useful 04:38:04 ooh, Knuth's supposed to make some major announcement tomorrow 05:05:49 It's a windowing system that is *API* compatible with libX11. While not sucking. <-- what about the new xcb thingy 05:05:55 that most things switched to? 05:06:39 coppro, wait, he hypes it like Jobs? 05:07:19 http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news.html#lectures 05:08:05 coppro, not tomorrow 05:08:06 today 05:08:18 depends on your time zone 05:08:33 well 06:08 local time 05:08:35 June 30 05:08:40 western Canada is still on Tuesday 05:08:41 UTC+2 05:10:43 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 05:40:10 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:40:42 -!- coppro has joined. 05:41:15 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:28 -!- coppro has joined. 05:59:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:01:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:01:08 Is still Tuesday here 06:11:46 " !!!" -- my school's principal, trapped in a soundproof box 15.6m x 4.0m 06:12:05 I'O_o 06:13:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:16:51 you can figure out which is fake because my computer is "zzo38computer.cjb.net" and it will resolve to the same IP address as the address I am connecting from, so it is possible to check. 06:17:14 uh, what? 06:20:01 Since I am register, you can use NS INFO on this server. But on some other IRC networks I might not be (it might not even support that function), so you have to figure out otherwise. 06:20:48 Also, if it is my own IRC server you can also see "127.0.0.1" also means I connected. This way you can also be sure that it is not someone else on the same router as I am, even 06:21:51 you are making no sense whatsoever 06:22:10 I'm not even sure you're talking English 06:22:18 coppro: Why do you think it is not sense? 06:22:36 sounds like a Markov bot 06:22:37 If you do not understand, please be specific ask specific question 06:23:09 which means I imagine that zzo38 is trying to see if a bot can pass as him 06:23:11 and the answer is no 06:24:04 No, it isn't a bot. 06:32:28 How many IRC servers implement SUMMON command? 06:35:21 This is a zzo38 bot running off of logs of his messages. 06:35:34 pikhq, oh yes can be 06:35:36 What's /SUMMON? 06:35:47 pikhq, didn't he say something about that once? 06:36:00 AnMaster: Perhaps. 06:36:07 Ilari: SUMMON command is for telling user on the same computer as IRC server running, tell them to connect to IRC. 06:36:16 But, it is running from the same host as zzo38computer.cjb.net 06:36:35 pikhq, though looks more like ALICE or such. Since it does sometimes keep on topic 06:36:48 pikhq: This is not running off of log of my messages, these are new messages! It is possible some messages are same as old ones, but mostly new messages 06:36:59 XD 06:37:01 how very zzo 06:37:03 AnMaster: Yeah, the major thing is that the syntax is... Off. 06:37:15 pikhq, hm? 06:37:31 I seem to recall that zzo38 didn't use weird syntax. 06:37:35 zzo38 is. 06:37:37 " !!!" -- my school's principal, trapped in a soundproof box 15.6m x 4.0m <-- now that line confused the hell out of me 06:37:58 In particular, plurals. 06:38:15 pikhq, huh, never noticed that 06:38:25 Also, much of the case system of English appears to be missing. 06:38:30 AnMaster: It's *jarring* for me. 06:38:53 pikhq, well sure 06:38:55 But given the errors I've seen in a lot of native speakers' English, I'm guessing it isn't for most. 06:39:06 pikhq, which case system? 06:39:34 AnMaster: The one most people aren't aware exists because it's more the *remnants* of a case system. 06:40:02 pikhq, but what is a case system!? 06:41:02 AnMaster: A case in a language is a change in form indicating the function of a word in a phrase or sentence. 06:41:04 I don't think we generally need plurals, who invented plurals anyways? 06:41:22 It's most common in English on the pronouns. 06:41:23 zzo38, you just used one 06:41:38 pikhq, am/are/is? 06:41:56 Another example. 06:42:25 AnMaster: Yes I did but I still think it is not generally needed in most cases 06:42:35 zzo38, "in most case" you mean 06:42:38 not "cases" 06:43:19 -!- Geekthras has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:43:24 Sometimes I don't know which plural to use but I use plural anyways in English writing, mostly, since it is English writing 06:43:34 there is only one plural 06:43:37 there is singular too 06:43:39 But not always 06:43:58 zzo38, and yes it should be cases 06:43:58 zzo38: Out of immense curiosity: what is your native language? 06:44:03 but I was joking there 06:44:08 about your logic 06:44:11 pikhq: Canada 06:44:20 zzo38, French or English? 06:44:41 zzo38, or some native language to Canada? 06:44:51 AnMaster: Canadian English 06:44:55 ah 06:45:17 Then... Why the heck is your English being so odd? 06:45:20 But I still think there is a lot of messy stuff in English and in other languages too 06:46:01 It really feels like I'm seeing a non-native speaker with a decent level of competence... 06:46:19 It might just be the plural thing. 06:46:58 Some people used to think of there must be a "ONE TRUE LANGUAGE", and that is was English, because that is the only language they know. I had similar thoughts but I thought it can't be English, because of so many strange thing! 06:47:43 一つ真語?こりゃ英語じゃない〜。 06:48:18 1 true language? that's not English... 06:49:37 How many ... thingies can a prefix-free encoding with 8 bits encode? 06:49:43 Why does NS and CS commands don't use proper IRC syntax? 06:50:28 zzo38: GAH STOP IT THAT HURTS 06:50:44 THY TALKING-WORDS CAUSE AGONY UNTO ME 06:51:18 pikhq: How can it hurt you? 06:51:35 ns and cs aren't strictly commands 06:52:02 It is incredibly, incredibly jarring. Much like nails on a chalkboard. 06:52:50 It forces me to reparse the sentence. And have to attempt to decode it. It's just... Gah. 06:53:44 Sgeo_: They are one kind of command? 06:54:22 They're messages to NameServ and ChanServ 06:54:34 not even messages 06:54:34 I know NS is command to access NickServ and so on 06:54:46 they are merely aliases provided by some clients 06:54:55 there is no NS command in the IRC protocol 06:55:09 Maybe not in standard IRC protocol, but many servers do support NS and CS command 06:55:20 Including Freenode 06:55:21 I refuse to believe your native language is English. 06:55:37 pikhq: OK, you can believe what you want to believe or to not believe, if you want to 06:55:55 My native language is Python. Well, no. How do you define "native"? VB5 might be my native language in a sense 06:56:07 Sgeo_: Native spoken language. 06:57:26 zzo38: You are managing to write indisputably incorrect English. This is amazing considering that correct English is undefined. 06:58:32 pikhq: A lot of things in English are wrong, that is why sometimes we have to write wrong thing to make it correct as what is trying to mean 06:58:36 But not always 06:59:55 Eigo ni tsuite machigau koto ga ooi, dakara tadashii ni naru tame ni tokidoki chigau koto wo kaeruhazu. 06:59:59 I sometimes write gramatically incorrect sentences when I forget what I wrote at first. 07:00:03 Demo itsumo ja nai. 07:00:18 The old man the boat. 07:00:20 And why some IRC servers use different numerics for the HELP command? 07:00:22 What you are writing is about as correct English as what I wrote there. 07:00:38 And about as illustrative of what you said. 07:00:53 pikhq, We painted the wall with cracks 07:01:00 -!- Geekthras has joined. 07:03:08 It says you have to write /msg NickServ help commands but that doesn't work, you have to write NS HELP COMMANDS does works 07:04:14 officially it should be SQUERY NickServ HELP 07:04:40 coppro: It says SQUERY is unknown command 07:04:49 yes, I know 07:04:51 but it's in the spec 07:04:58 (no one follows the spec) 07:05:32 The IRC server software I use does support SQUERY 07:05:59 But Freenode server software does not support SQUERY 07:06:27 Why is that? 07:07:14 -!- myndzi has joined. 07:08:51 ask in the channel 07:09:07 In what channel? 07:10:01 #ircd-seven or something 07:10:22 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:13:04 That didn't work. I got http://sprunge.us/VDBg 07:13:33 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:18:48 "Just without you, this game would never exist" 07:19:14 What game do you refer to? 07:30:28 The game I've been working on since November 2009 07:31:14 The code's been rewritten twice, I've taken at least one major hiatus, possibly two.. 07:31:34 Two complete language changes (One of which I wasn't around to see) 07:31:49 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 07:34:21 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:34:30 -!- MizardX has quit (Changing host). 07:34:30 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:46:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:05:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:47:01 -!- tombom has joined. 09:54:41 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 10:01:54 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 10:04:48 -!- tombom_ has joined. 10:04:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:05:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:05:33 -!- augur has joined. 10:05:47 !haskell instace (Monad m) => (MonadAdd m) where (>+<) :: m a -> m -> m 10:30:05 s/instace/instance/ and two kind errors 10:57:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:59:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:10:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 11:23:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:25:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 11:35:54 Deewiant: [2010-06-30 13:34:13] Tweeted: About NetHack: healthy, wealthy and wise quetzalcoatl, who discovered that an unlucky hacker once had a potion of sickness. (fungot) 11:35:55 fizzie: grep for it... 11:36:18 That's not much of a discovery. 11:36:19 That hacker does sound unlucky 11:36:50 am I mad for printing a PDF to PDF just to cut out some of the pages in it? 11:37:18 Yes, you should pdftk it instead. 11:37:44 Remove 'page 13' from in1.pdf to create out1.pdf: pdftk in.pdf cat 1-12 14-end output out1.pdf 11:38:01 Even our workstations have that thing preinstalled. 11:38:16 not installed here 11:38:30 That is a bit sucky. 11:40:01 Priting is then perhaps better than pdftops/pdf2ps + psselect + ps2pdf; the round-trip to postscript-land sometimes messes things up. 11:40:23 it's only virtual printing, theoretically it shouldn't really mess with the PDF at all 11:41:27 Theoretically, schmeoretically. If the virtual PDF printer pretends to be a postscript printer (which doesn't sound unlikely) it still involves some conversions, much like the pdf2ps+ps2pdf way. 11:51:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:54:32 apparently, Knuth is going to make an "earthshaking announcement" today 11:55:01 rare for him to self-promote like that... 11:57:31 Turns out he wasn't a mortal human after all, but a representative of a superintelligent alien species. 11:57:36 (Just a guess.) 11:58:12 I'll always remember Knuth for optimising the translation of statements of the form "if a then b:=c" to INTERCAL 11:58:16 by avoiding branches 12:04:44 Could the announcement be "just" TAoCP 4A? I'm not sure that'd be sufficiently earthshaking, since it's been promised "late 2010" anyway. 12:05:58 who knows 12:07:17 Knuth, hopefully. 12:07:19 heh, just saw a bogus proof on Slashdot that the last digit of pi was 5 12:12:23 "In the audio recording, when asked by Mr Mattsson what law police were using to detain him and ask for details, one officer replies: 'We don’t have to have a law.'" 12:12:31 That might not be something you want to hear from the police. 12:18:55 oh, seems it's Wednesday next week, rather than today 12:20:41 Huh? Knuth's own page says "Wednesday, 30 June, 5:30pm, at the Sir Francis Drake Hotel in San Francisco -- ``An Earthshaking Announcement''" 12:20:46 That's today. 12:21:34 (And the corresponding TeX conference is "June 28-30, 2010" too.) 12:22:23 The conference program, incidentally, only lists it as "A Special Announcement!". Which one it is: earthshaking, or just special, I wonder. 12:29:54 perhaps it is today, then 12:43:44 Declare variables. Not war. 12:44:45 Sgeo_: hippy computer programming? 12:45:22 http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs182.snc4/37459_135556353130832_124438437575957_297508_162276_n.jpg 12:45:51 That's.. rather unhelpful, isn't it, except letting everyone know that I didn't come up with it 13:00:31 fizzie: What's that time in UTC-land 13:03:42 Deewiant: I believe it's around midnight, based on the location of the conference. 13:04:16 Yeah, something like that 13:04:38 It's +7 apparently, they're having daylight saving time going on too. 13:05:07 Or UTC-7, the "+7" meant "the offset from that to UTC". 13:16:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:19:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:22:16 How many ... thingies can a prefix-free encoding with 8 bits encode? 13:22:43 um 256? if you use all 8 bits you have no prefixes to consider 13:23:30 or rather, every 8-bit sequence is trivially not a prefix of any other 13:32:33 So scratch that idea than? I just thought it would be easier to detect if the first bit were 0, or, if not, if it was 11, or if not, etc. etc. etc. 13:32:52 02:05:47 !haskell instace (Monad m) => (MonadAdd m) where (>+<) :: m a -> m -> m 13:32:55 02:30:05 s/instace/instance/ and two kind errors 13:33:22 actually s/instace/class/ 13:33:29 and still two kind errors 13:35:35 Sgeo_: you mean you cannot do more testing if the first bit is 0, etc.? in that case you'd get only 8 possibilities, i'd think 13:36:13 0, 11, 100, 1011, 10100, 101011, 1010100, 10101011 13:36:16 Not that I _cannot_, but it wouldn't be easy to be able to test all 256 possiblities 13:36:45 Oh, "etc" 13:37:05 well then the question is how many values you need 13:37:27 if you need 8 say, then using 3 bits would be better i should think 13:38:11 If you need 8 but with a non-uniform distribution, and you're going to do a per-bit testing/branching like that anyway, you could as well use a variable-length prefix-free code. 13:38:12 I believe (but am not certain), that I need one awsistor per bit per value I want to test 13:39:03 If I were to do full capacity.. thingy 13:39:24 so 256*8 awsistors for full 8-bit? 13:39:50 Yes 13:40:01 And that would probably be a major PITA and loss of space 13:41:03 Then again, I'm not likely to want to test every value 13:41:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:41:20 If I have, say, 10 opcodes (terminology?) it's 10*8 13:41:24 Which is still a lot 13:42:00 Sgeo_, computersmithing? 13:42:01 well with 10 opcodes you can fit those in 4 bits, so you should be able to shrink that to 10*4 13:42:42 and indeed a little less if you combine that with prefix-freeness 13:42:45 Well, I don't know what your thingies are capable of. But if you can do an "if bit n is zero, do x; otherwise y" test, and x/y can be similar tests for further bits, you only need the number of non-leaf nodes in a full binary tree of height n to attach a different action to every n-bit sequence. 13:44:25 indeed if it's one awsistor per if in that way, then you should need less than 256*8, since for example all cases with first bit 0 can share the first bit test 13:44:48 oerjan, what if I add an opcode later? (Or, more likely, add memory? Or output? I'd probably end up using the same checking to determine which memory or output to go to) 13:45:18 Sgeo_: if you add an opcode you'd have to add a new branch to one of the leaves, presumably 13:45:42 Right, so the tree is more flexible than assuming I'm working with 4 bits 13:45:42 say by splitting 111 into 1110 and 1111 13:46:03 It's 2 awsistors per test, I think 13:46:16 Erm, if/else test 13:46:25 ok, it should still be less with tree-like branching 13:47:12 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 + 128 + 256 = 510 for full 8-bit, i think 13:47:17 Of course if you don't mind the codeword length at all, you can treat it as a n-bit bitmask, use 100... for first opcode, 0100.. for second, etc., and then you just need one "if" test per opcode, with no elses. 13:47:38 Actually, 1 awsistor per if test with no else... I think 13:48:20 But you'll end up with what's basically unary numbers that way; to represent n opcodes like that, you'll need n-bit numbers. 13:48:54 And it's not exactly practical to do anything with them except use as symbols. 13:49:10 Right. So opcodes, but not memory or output 13:50:04 With memory-mapped registers, I might be able to get away with.. far fewer opcodes? 13:50:21 You can get away with one if you want. 13:50:39 Sgeo_, surely the register would need to be included in the opcode? 13:50:49 ...hm 13:51:02 That's a matter of definition, whether operands are part of the opcode or not. 13:51:46 Well, I suppose it could have the register in the next octet. 13:51:47 assuming registers and opcode are somewhat orthogonal to each other, you might still save a lot by sharing stuff 13:52:02 Wikipedia's definition considers "opcode" as "the portion of a machine language instruction that specifies the operation to be performed", with operands being other parts of the instruction. 13:52:04 But then you lose simple 8-bit immediate operands. 13:52:29 How do other 8-bit processors do it? 13:53:03 the register could just be in like the lowest 2-4 bits of the command? 13:53:13 assuming you don't have that many registers 13:53:26 Yes, usually. But you don't need to count the register as a part of the opcode even if it's in the same byte. 13:54:34 indeed, as long as they are disjoint bits the tests for opcode and register don't need to be intertwined 13:55:02 Though, well... 6502 puts register names in the mnemonics, and things with different mnemonics are typically considered different opcodes. 13:55:27 There's INC, INX and INY, which increment the accumulator, X and Y register, respectively. 13:55:58 * oerjan reminisces 13:56:29 Admittedly it only *has* three registers, and you can't do much with X and Y (except use them as indices in quirky addressing modes), so in most cases everything just operates on the accumulator. 13:57:24 How does one do addition? 13:57:27 Even the opcodes that move values between registers have separate mnemonics (TAX, TXA, TAY, TYA). 13:57:29 accum + ? 13:57:49 I guess multiple registers do have a use 13:58:15 There's only ADC, which can add-with-carry either an immediate 8-bit value, or a byte from memory. But there's several modes for addressing memory. 14:02:37 6502 code typically uses the 256 first bytes of memory as "registers", because you can access those with a 8-bit address operand. And there are indirect addressing modes, which [disclaimer: simplified] take a 8-bit memory operand, read a 16-bit value from memory at that address, and then operate on the byte pointed by that value. 14:03:04 There wasn't such a huge speed difference between registers and memory anyway at that point. 14:04:14 I seem to recall that in some derivatives there was also a register you could change that was used as the high byte of "zero-page" access. 14:08:39 Sgeo_, what instruction set do you have in mind? 14:09:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:09:35 Move things from memory to memory. Add things located in special memory addresses 14:09:48 Um, maybe an interrupt system somehow 14:10:13 A stack is a popular thing to have. At least in the call/ret sense. 14:10:47 Sgeo_, so everything mmapped?? 14:10:50 s/??/?/ 14:10:53 Phantom_Hoover, why not? 14:11:09 No, that wasn't an incredulous sentence. 14:11:17 It was just making sure. 14:12:03 Anyway, move immediate to memory as well? 14:12:34 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:12:37 Phantom_Hoover: Meh, you just have to map the values 0..255 to some memory range, then you'll have all the constants you could need. 14:12:47 fizzie, clever. 14:13:35 I think MIPS has a constant-0 "register"; one of the "general-purpose registers" is hardwired to value 0. 14:13:45 yes 14:13:49 r0 14:14:02 hmm, I invented a new esolang while lying in bed this morning 14:14:09 that's how i invented toi 14:14:18 the idea's to make it sub-TC, but only barely 14:14:20 ais523, not even in your sleep? 14:14:22 i woke up, and it just came to me 14:14:26 it's expressive enough to, for instance, calculate the Ackermann function 14:14:36 ais523: is it as great as toi 14:14:44 I don't know 14:14:51 probably not, it's kind-of quirky 14:14:59 well tell us 14:15:02 and probably useless, apart from as a typical eso programming challenge 14:15:09 ais523, has anyone created Ackermann, the language that can only compute the Ackermann function? 14:15:20 details aren't finalised yet, but the only flow control operator is eval 14:15:49 quining paradigm 14:15:55 If you want to do "A = A+X" on the 6502 registers, you'd have to do something like "CLC; STX $42; ADC $42" (5 bytes, 8 cycles), where $42 is a suitable zero-page memory location for a temporary value. Unless you want to do it like "CLC; STX .foo+1; .foo: ADC #$00" (6 bytes, 8 cycles), but that probably doesn't make much sense. 14:16:02 but there's a twist, to do with nested evals; if inside an eval you do another eval, the one on the inside must be no longer, and must come earlier in alphabetical order 14:16:05 or is that a good description in this case 14:16:10 (with an infinite alphabet) 14:16:14 oh cool 14:16:45 it's not really quining paradigm, because the operators I plan to give leave the program text you evalled lying around in memory, so you don't have to reconstruct it 14:17:07 anyway, you can prove mathematically that all programs in this lang always halt, so it's sub-TC 14:17:17 well yes that's obvious 14:17:38 the ordering is well-founded 14:18:14 yup 14:18:32 ais523: um when calculating ackermann you definitely recurse with some values longer than the original 14:18:32 yet the restriction doesn't get in the way in any real practical sense, unless you try to create an infinite loop 14:18:35 or well i mean the no infinite descending chain property 14:18:42 oerjan: the program text doesn't need to be longer 14:18:53 are you sure 14:19:00 hm... 14:19:08 well need to know more details 14:19:11 well, arbitrary bignums are in the alphabet, and count as only one "letter" 14:19:23 so you can recursively use the exact same program with just a few bignums at the start changed 14:19:32 i mean you will have to represent the original call as verbosely as you represent your last recursions 14:19:42 you will, yes 14:19:44 wait can you return? 14:19:48 yep 14:19:54 okay i misunderstood eval 14:19:59 so definitely not quining 14:20:05 or 14:20:06 umm 14:20:09 ais523: ok so you get (more than) omega^2 recursion and thus ackermann 14:20:11 it's traditional lispy/underloady eval, not muriel-style 14:20:20 oerjan: yes; I think you even get epsilon_0 recursion 14:20:41 Didn't I once ask if something like this was possible? 14:20:41 but I'm less sure on that, I keep forgetting the definitions of all those really high sorts of recursion 14:21:10 can someone tell me what these classes are? i should probably know 14:21:22 all I know was from one lecture I went to for fun 14:21:39 or i guess i should wp, i just think (hope) i'll understand them from a one-line explanation 14:21:40 epsilon_0 = inf { alpha | omega ^ alpha = alpha } ? 14:21:52 and from one of the stories in gödel, escher, bach 14:21:55 s/inf/min/, really 14:22:01 oerjan: I think so 14:22:35 ais523: i'm not sure you can get more than omega^omega, actually 14:22:47 hmm 14:23:03 Bye for now. 14:23:05 all I remember is an example of a function that requires at least fixed-point-1 style recursion to reach 14:23:21 what you do is, you have a string of digits, initially in binary 14:23:34 then, you repeatedly: subtract 1, then interpret the result in the next base up 14:23:38 ais523: an n-length string gives you omega^n afaict 14:23:46 what's omega? 14:23:57 first infinite ordinal, aka the naturals 14:24:05 e.g. you start with 1000, subtract 1 and get 111, interpret that as ternary, subtract 1 and get 110, interpret that as base 4, subtract 1 and get 103, interpret that as base 5, etc 14:24:08 oh? then i'm confused 14:24:15 the function blows up really really quickly 14:24:25 no idea what omega^2 recursion is 14:24:29 much faster than the ackermann function 14:25:04 oerjan: it goes beyond omega^n, because you're allowed to exit from an eval and go into another one 14:25:58 I think, at least 14:27:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:28:10 oklopol: omega^2 recursion is the kind you do with ackermann. basically when you calculate A(m,n) you always recurse to something for which omega*m + n is smaller 14:28:42 well i'm not sure "omega^2 recursion" is the right technical term, but that's the idea 14:28:42 oklopol: you can think of omega as being a bit like an arbitrarily high integer whose value you have to know in advance 14:28:43 i don't get what omega*m + n means 14:28:47 but that's a rather poor description 14:28:54 well 14:28:58 okay sure i guess 14:29:08 hmm, or as an integer greater than any other integer you use during the course of the calculation not defined in terms of omega 14:29:24 a sort of "finite infinity" 14:29:31 could we just think of omega*m + n as (m, n) 14:29:35 oklopol: it's the ordinal number for the order given by m copies of the natural numbers followed by n single elements 14:29:41 hmm 14:29:48 okay 14:31:08 oklopol: that's a decent definition when you're just dealing with omega, omega^2, etc 14:31:16 but it starts to get confusing when you get omega^omega 14:31:17 so we order pairs as (m1, n1) > (m2, n2) iff m1 > m2 or (m1 = m2 and n1 > n2), and then omega^2 recursion means our pairs get smaller when we recurse 14:31:29 oklopol: basically for any well-founded recursive function you can define its ordinal rank recursively 14:31:47 oklopol: yep 14:32:16 or wait is that quite well-defined 14:32:21 hmm 14:32:29 how do we define its ordinal rank recursively 14:32:49 i'm starting to doubt it 14:33:09 that it's uniquely defined, that is 14:34:29 anyway if you have only omega recursion that's the same as primitive recursion i think. basically you have _one_ argument that needs to consistently get smaller. 14:36:11 w.r.t. some well-founded ordering 14:36:17 no 14:36:20 oh 14:36:23 wrt being a natural number 14:36:26 right 14:36:52 if the argument is in the well-founded ordering then - oh now i see 14:37:03 it's the well-founded ordering that has an ordinal rank 14:37:51 i'm starting to forget what we're doing here 14:37:52 :P 14:38:19 for any total recursive function such a well-founded ordering needs to exist, but it's not unique. and in principle you could just use the recursion depth, but that doesn't help you prove the function _is_ total without circularity 14:39:22 is an ordinal rank something any well-founded ordering has? 14:39:24 so for ackermann say, you could use A(m,n) _itself_ as your well-founded ordering but that is useless until you've proved the ackermann function is well-defined 14:39:31 yes i think so. 14:40:39 define the ordinal of an element a to be min { alpha | alpha > rank (b) for all b < a } 14:40:40 it occurs to me there's a colorful theory behind all this, what's its name? 14:41:09 elementary set theory 14:41:19 um if it's more than ordinals and transfinite recursion, then i'm not sure 14:41:37 i'm not saying i know there's a colorful theory 14:41:40 i mean 14:42:04 i'm not saying i know there is one that has been fully discovered, i'm saying i'm sensing the presense of a theory i do not know 14:42:47 (*c) 14:44:24 oklopol: the example that ais523 gave above (changing base and subtracting one) requires epsilon_0 recursion. it's significance is due to the fact that pure peano arithmetic cannot prove that function is well-defined, because peano arithmetic can only define recursive functions with ordinal strictly _less_ than epsilon_0. 14:44:37 today they had a seminar about textile systems and i skipped it because the last time i went i didn't understand a word :'( 14:45:06 *its 14:45:21 "transfinite", that was the word I was trying to remember 14:46:00 oklopol: well clothes fashion is boring anyway 14:47:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%E2%82%80 14:48:14 basically you have two graphs, T and C, we think of the edges of T as tiles and the edges of C as colors on the tops and bottoms of the tiles. we have two graph homomorphisms t and b from T to C, bi-infinite paths in T we think of as lines of tiles, and the images of those paths with t and b we think of as the color sequences below and on top of the line 14:48:28 this is how much i know 14:48:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem 14:48:48 (what ais523 referred to) 14:49:07 why "good"stein, is there a bad stein it improves on? 14:49:11 HAHAHAA 14:49:14 :DSa 14:49:19 * oklopol looks. 14:49:53 oklopol: careful there, you might be accused of antisemitism with such a joke 14:50:44 or maybe i will be for assuming it's a jewish name without checking 14:50:56 (wp only says he was english) 14:52:15 it would be hard for me to be antisemite given that i learned about jews when i was like 15 14:52:29 well, assuming these things usually develop early 14:52:44 or well i guess it could be an intellectual choice 14:53:08 but that would be weird too because there are basically no jews in finland 14:53:31 you never let them get in 14:54:02 "Today, there are synagogues in Helsinki and Turku and the number of Jews is 1,200." 14:54:08 Go tell that to them! 14:54:16 there's this phd student in our uni who couldn't get to usa for a conference or something because he's from iran 14:54:17 hmm, reminds me of a documentary I saw when I was in Canada 14:54:24 talking about the fact that there was exactly one Jew in Afghanistan 14:54:35 (that's actually relevant for norway, our constitution initially forbade jews from entering the country) 14:54:45 oerjan: ouch 14:55:04 but then, the UK "constitution" still forbids Catholics marrying in to the Royal Family 14:55:07 also jesuits and catholic monks iirc 14:55:10 IIRC the EU told them it was racist and had to change 14:55:15 fizzie: okay but they are still not a thing, saying there are jews in finland, to me, is like saying some people in finland like to eat only even amounts of grapes at a time. 14:55:27 ^ possibly the stupidest metaphor i've ever heard 14:56:15 now I'm wondering if there /are/ people who restrict grape-eating to even numbers 14:56:21 well 14:56:29 i do at least some parity stuff with graphs 14:56:38 Also I wonder about "at a time", is that like they'll only stick even numbers of grapes into their mouths at once, or just they want to end up with an even total of grapes eaten during one grape-eating session? 14:56:46 i split the grapes in two in my mouth with alternating sides of my mouth 14:56:49 I suppose there are people who refuse to eat grapes, and thus fulfil the grape-eating condition degenerately 14:57:02 fizzie: latter 14:57:23 ais523: "You degenerate grape-eater" is quite an insult. 14:57:39 fizzie: wow, insults must be weird where you live 14:57:47 in fact it is possible that i often end up eating an even amount because i have to make my mouth sides feel symmetric 14:57:54 there are many things i have to do symmetrically 14:58:01 oklopol: What, are you a jew?! 14:58:06 :D 14:58:50 on another note, I got into a discussion on Slashdot about whether it was theoretically possible for P=NP to be undecidable 14:59:16 someone said it was possible that there was an algorithm for solving an NP-complete problem, where it was undecidable whether the algo was P-time or not 14:59:22 which is really quite a bizarre thing to think about 14:59:23 not possible, but it's possible it's unprovable from whatever set of axioms we have 14:59:38 yep, I thought it wasn't provably undecidable 14:59:56 things with a finite amount of inputs are never undecidable 15:00:14 but i guess it's clear what they mean 15:01:30 standard bizarre things in this area: let S be the set of numbers n such that pi in base 10 contains the sequence "7"^n, then S is decidable 15:01:55 yeah imagine if someone found an algorithm that seemed to always work fast, but no one could prove why it worked 15:02:00 even though it has infinitely many inputs and we have no idea how to actually create that algorithm 15:03:31 is this "contains" as in contains not as part of a larger "7"^n ? 15:03:41 no 15:03:49 otherwise it's not decidable 15:03:53 i mean 15:03:57 not trivially decidable 15:04:09 i mean 15:04:23 well for some value of trivial 15:04:39 so it requires allowing subsets automatically, so the set is necessarily of the form {"7"^n | n < N } for some N which might be infinity 15:04:51 oh and "a set S of numbers is decidable" means the language there's a tm that accepts exactly the language {1^n | n \in S} 15:05:34 yes, and there's an explanation that makes it seem very unbizarre 15:05:44 hm but it should also reject on the complement, right? 15:05:56 (not fail to halt) 15:06:07 err 15:06:09 sure 15:06:19 you don't see how that's decidable? 15:06:34 i didn't expect you'd fall for that one 15:06:51 (whether i did is a secret) 15:06:54 of course i do, the set is {1,...,N} for some N or all natural numbers 15:07:06 well right 15:07:08 s/1/0/ 15:07:15 ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 15:07:25 your question was about my definition of accepting a set of numbers 15:07:33 yes 15:07:49 then yeah i meant a tm that always halts 15:08:01 because if it only needs to accept or else not halt, then i think it's also easy to find an explicit TM 15:08:16 just search through pi 15:08:18 yes, just enumerate 15:08:20 pi's digits 15:09:24 oerjan: pi clearly doesn't contain infinitely many consecutive 7s 15:09:27 as that would force it to be rational 15:09:29 incidentally it's extremely likely that TM works anyhow (because the set _is_ all natural numbers, so it never fails to halt) 15:09:40 ais523: that's not what he said 15:09:51 oh, right 15:09:55 we just need S to be unbounded for N to be infinite 15:10:00 yu 15:10:01 *yup 15:10:50 oerjan: extremely likely with what probability measure exactly?!? :D 15:11:04 a _very_ intuitive measure 15:11:18 on a very intuitive space 15:11:32 easy as pi! 15:12:34 err wait 15:12:45 i guess you could say lebesque measure... 15:13:15 i mean in an intuitive sense but still 15:14:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_analysis 15:14:31 any way we "access" reals might in theory increase the probability of not having infinitely long sequences of 7's 15:17:56 well you can even define a measure such that with probability 1, the number contains no 7 at all 15:18:52 err 15:19:02 yes 15:19:09 every nonempty set has infinite measure 15:19:14 err 15:19:21 probabilities sorry let's think..asdf 15:19:30 oerjan: fun trick maths question: given a circle with radius 1 and a random secant of it, what's the probability that the segment of the secant inside the circle has a length of at least sqrt(3)? 15:20:23 ("easy" way: take a uniformly selected number in [0,1], write it in base 9, then change each 7 to a 9 and reinterpret as base 10) 15:21:14 ais523: i think i've read about that, there are several "intuitive" ways of making the random selection with different answers, isn't it 15:21:19 *aren't there 15:21:21 yes 15:21:28 the trick is that "random secant" isn't defined 15:21:35 and there isn't enough information to be able to define it 15:21:59 * oklopol googles secant... 15:22:38 oklopol: line that intersects a circle twice 15:23:08 right, i was just wondering about segment of secant inside the blah because i thought the secant already means that segment 15:23:21 I was wondering if the secant was the whole line or not, so I put that in just to be sure 15:26:36 aaaargh. hate being put on hold... 15:26:43 I think I'll go build my NAND gate now 15:27:47 so we have two alphabets P and T, and we have a function f from P to T. we have a set D \subset P^(2,2) (2x2 squares of P's); we say a local picture language is a language L' = {X \in P^(m,n) | for all subsquares S of X that are of size 2x2, we have that S \in D}; we define recognizable picture languages as images of local picture languages, L is recognizable iff L = f(L') for some local L' 15:28:02 * oklopol felt like it was time for some definitions. 15:29:02 (this is sort of a finite version of sofic shifts) 15:29:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:30:47 it was proven with a neat tentacle construction that the "language of trees", that is the language where T = arrows left/right/up/down and we require that a picture have no cycles, is a recognizable picture language 15:31:00 in 1998 iirc 15:31:25 in 2006 the same author (reinhardt) proved that the language of directed acyclic graphs is also recognizable 15:32:07 this fact can be used to prove so called deterministic picture languages are recognizable 15:33:04 maybe that's all for now, i should eat something -> 15:33:22 also quasiperiodicity has at least three different definitions 15:37:56 perhaps there is a quasiperiodic sequence of them 15:41:05 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:42:59 oerjan: you don't have an opinion on what the definition should be? :P 15:57:47 for that i would have to remember at least one 16:07:12 -!- cpressey1 has joined. 16:07:12 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:07:40 Ah, tradeoffs 16:07:50 Digital adder: Fast, but very, very large 16:08:00 Analog adder: Slow, and prone to errors, but small 16:10:07 -!- cpressey1 has changed nick to cpressey. 16:13:55 oerjan: well not necessarily, but yeah might be useful 16:14:17 i mean given that there are three different definitions... 16:16:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 16:16:07 Death adder: fast and small and poisonous. Watch out! 16:38:40 My NAND gate uses 7 awsistors 16:44:47 I've heard omega described as "the largest finite integer" 16:45:06 I'm not sure if they were trying to be funny 16:45:50 It kind of works, though 16:52:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:52:19 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:59:30 Digital adder: Fast, but very, very large <-- eh no 16:59:54 eh I'm not talking about RL circuitry 17:00:15 Sgeo_, a simple adder with no carry forwarding thingy network should be quite simple 17:00:28 just a lot of full adders hooked up to each other 17:00:30 Sgeo_, ^ 17:00:37 Sgeo_, RL? 17:00:52 Even one logic gate is very large 17:00:59 just 4 transistors 17:01:03 for a NAND 17:01:20 I';ve sort of done two inverse gates here >.> 17:01:20 and well, they tend to be in the µm scale or nm nowdays maybe 17:01:43 Sgeo_, what do you mean RL though? 17:01:52 AnMaster, as in, this is virtual circuitry 17:01:56 In Active Worlds. 17:01:59 oh that 17:02:00 meh 17:02:50 4 transistors for a NAND is something I should note though. I'm using 7 awsistors, and recently realized that awsistors are very similar to transistors... 17:02:55 So I may be doing it wrong. 17:08:43 Sgeo_, I'm talking about CMOS though 17:08:49 I doubt you have two variants for it 17:08:57 for TTL, who knows 17:09:01 I don't know at least 17:17:09 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282 17:17:45 Any 2-input gate can be built with 2 BJTs. ("Normal" transistors.) 17:18:00 Except *maybe* XOR. I don't recall. 17:18:47 "AND" just puts them in series, "OR" in parallel. "NOT" you get "for free" by choosing where to get the output from. 17:20:13 Except here I'm doing it twice 17:20:38 For NAND, I'm putting the NOTs in series, and the .. whatevers, in parallel 17:20:50 So yeah, a bit wasteful 17:20:54 http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~mssz/CompOrg/Figure1.16-NANDcircuit.gif 17:21:51 I doubt that has a very direct relationship to how it would look in awcircuitry, but that is all there is, in TTL. 17:23:05 Um, the transistor symbols.. I don't get that 17:27:26 Well, the wire on the left is the base -- current on it controls current flowing between the other two wires. 17:28:19 If there's current on both of (A) and (B), current will flow from +Vcc to ground, and you won't get any on (X). 17:28:48 But if there is no current on either (A) or (B), the "path" from +Vcc to ground is "blocked", and so you'll see current at (X). 17:29:17 ("path" and "blocked" don't really need quotes, I geuss.) 17:30:51 Well, NOT isn't quite free, at least in the model I'm using 17:31:02 Which I'm starting to think is a really sucky model 17:31:47 Sgeo_: Have you looked at neural models? They seem closer to what you're working with sounds like. 17:32:02 cpressey, no :/ 17:33:36 Each neuron has a threshhold. It receives inputs which increase its "energy level" until that threshhold. Then it empties itself into whatever neighbours its connected to. (This is of course a very idealized model, not much like a real neuron) 17:33:59 But if you add inhibitors to them (basically NOT), they're universal 17:34:54 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:34:55 This is from Minsky's book 17:35:23 http://www.amazon.com/Computation-Finite-Infinite-Machines-Automatic/dp/0131655639 17:37:39 I love how, if I accidentally press ctrl-S in a terminal, it looks like everything froze. Some things die hard. I also wonder who really uses Caps Lock, or overwrite mode, these days. 17:38:04 This observation will of course be greeted with cries of "Hey *I* use overwrite mode" 17:38:07 I use overwrite mode to write Befunge 17:38:40 I also would often like to use Ctrl-S if it were bindable to something else 17:39:30 Ctrl-S itself is too often used by programs so I have it disabled 17:40:56 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 17:44:28 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 17:44:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:45:02 I hate Ctrl-S. 17:45:07 Mostly because S is next to A 17:45:12 And I use Ctrl-A a lot. 17:46:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:46:56 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 17:51:10 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 17:51:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:52:02 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 17:58:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:59:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:13:39 -!- relet has joined. 18:15:35 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:19:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:34 -!- coppro has joined. 18:37:38 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Quit: Quit). 18:38:04 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:42:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:43:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:43:54 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:46:00 -!- hiato has joined. 18:46:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:57:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:57:18 Yay, I have /home on a separate partition now. 18:57:27 I'm one of the cool kids! 18:59:01 oh no, are you one of those guys now 18:59:36 Phantom_Hoover: sorry, you've become That Guy 18:59:59 That Guy? 19:01:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 19:10:46 so I'm wondering how I can combine an OO-style Actor model 19:10:51 with Haskell's IO/STM monads. 19:12:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:15:03 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:19:32 CakeProphet: Don't 19:21:25 CakeProphet: http://sulzmann.blogspot.com/2008/10/actors-with-multi-headed-receive.html 19:22:39 and the package http://hackage.haskell.org/package/actor 19:25:01 -!- cpressey has left (?). 19:25:57 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:27:18 pikhq: Why not? 19:27:37 -!- Gregor has joined. 19:27:43 -!- coppro has joined. 19:34:00 I'm just wondering why I should bother implementing this whole library 19:34:11 er, using this library, declarating its typeclasses, etc 19:34:17 when I could just use channel primitives. 19:36:19 read the paper: http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~sulzmann/publications/multi-headed-actors.pdf 19:36:25 they have a nice syntax 19:36:29 current am 19:37:16 I'm trying to understand what it means by multi-headed. 19:37:28 multiple messages at once 19:37:45 that is, receiving them 19:40:45 ah okay. 19:40:57 couldn't that be implemented with... tuples? 19:41:05 or lists? 19:41:35 did you read the paper yet? the first example shows why multi-headed is cool 19:41:37 and a regular case 19:43:05 i wish oerjan was here 19:43:31 are you talking about receiving head 19:44:06 alright, it looks at least interesting. But I can't help but think it's unecessary for what I'm doing. Do you know anything about the efficiency of the approach? 19:46:00 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:46:02 ah I see. 19:46:11 so you can receive messages composed by multiple actors? 19:48:18 hmmm, no, not what I was thinking 19:48:49 -!- coppro has joined. 19:49:59 ah, actually yes that is what I was thinking. 19:50:18 that's pretty interesting. I still can't think of what I would need it for. 19:55:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:55:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:58:03 -!- Warrior` has joined. 20:01:46 I guess having multiple-heads makes "handshaking" easier. 20:01:59 yes 20:12:59 -!- tombom__ has joined. 20:14:31 Warning: call to signal(13, 0x1) 20:14:31 Blocked: call to setlocale(6, "") 20:14:33 Warning: call to rand() 20:14:33 Warning: call to rand() 20:14:33 Warning: call to rand() 20:14:39 (process:8103): Gtk-WARNING **: Locale not supported by C library. 20:14:39 Using the fallback 'C' locale. 20:14:43 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:14:44 vlc told me all of these 20:14:47 wtf is up with it? 20:15:57 vlc is havng an existential breakdown. 20:16:01 obviously. 20:18:11 CakeProphet, hah 20:18:22 Blocked: call to unsetenv("DBUS_ACTIVATION_ADDRESS") 20:18:22 Blocked: call to unsetenv("DBUS_ACTIVATION_BUS_TYPE") 20:18:27 now those it didn't say before 20:20:26 AnMaster: Why are you tracing it? 20:22:17 pikhq, I'm not afaik 20:22:23 pikhq, it is just telling me that all the time 20:22:31 pikhq, if I was tracing it I would use strace 20:22:34 and I'm not 20:22:48 pikhq, how do I turn off the tracing? 20:22:49 is there a way to determine the max cells used by a bf program? 20:23:02 Warrior`, yes, solving the halting program I think 20:23:03 Warrior`: Halting problem says "no". 20:23:10 AnMaster: Beats me. 20:23:19 Warrior`, so by using an oracle machine, yes 20:23:46 hmm...some searched led me to this 20:23:48 http://www.rohitab.com/discuss/index.php?showtopic=36344&view=findpost&p=10077035 20:24:25 but the code is confusing 20:24:49 you could run and check 20:24:58 and if it halts and don't depend on IO 20:25:02 well then you know 20:25:14 it is only by running the code and checking it that you find this out though 20:25:23 hmm...i will have to think about it deeply 20:26:20 not really 20:26:23 trivial 20:26:38 at least if you already know the area 20:29:51 .not much..so have to know the background knowledge 20:37:52 -!- Behold has joined. 20:39:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:39:43 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:46:24 -!- Warrior` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:46:53 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:51:49 So very, very like a while. 20:51:54 Whale. 20:52:02 So very, very etc. 20:58:36 -!- AnMaster has set topic: very while(Very like a whale) { More so than a real whale. } | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:58:39 cpressey, :P 20:59:54 ha. 21:02:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 21:15:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:29:04 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:34:07 -!- cal153 has joined. 21:36:45 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:37:03 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:37:13 This is idiot of mahjong: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/idiot_of_mahjong.jpg 21:37:21 -!- augur has joined. 21:37:56 Whoever says discard the red five is idiot. This is a complete hand worth at least 4 han. 21:38:55 And what about the No.5126278? 3 for ryanpeikou + 2 for iipeikou does not even add up to seven. In addition, this hand has neither. 21:39:16 -!- tombom__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:39:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:39:32 -!- augur has joined. 21:39:43 zzo38, ...? 21:40:22 AnMaster: You look...? 21:40:54 at that link 21:41:00 ! 21:41:03 but I don't get it 21:41:44 Look at message number 5126278 for one thing, that one you might see one thing that is wrong right away. But there are more things wrong with that message and also with the other messages 21:42:02 O no, it is correct 21:42:19 It does add up correctly, but it is still wrong. Iipeikou is worth only 1 point. 21:42:56 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:44:54 (In case you don't know mahjong, I will tell you, ryanpeikou means you have iipeikou twice. Generally the scoring is 1 for each iipeikou + 1 extra for ryanpeikou, adding to to 3 in total for ryanpeikou.) 21:46:54 Also, I found a QBASIC code which is very bad. It uses subroutines where ON GOTO would do much better, and duplicates code a lot where subroutines would have worked better. In addition, there is many useless line labels with dumb names, and various other problems as well. 21:47:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:47:13 In addition, the program does not even work. It often crashes due to stack overflow. 21:47:57 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:48:46 Re " ... <-- even my old old nokia can use java. Not sure about applets though, but I think it might", if you mean a J2ME-enabled phone, that's very different from real Java (perhaps not language-wise, but library-wise) and in any case can only run J2'3-specific "midlets". 21:49:50 (Not to mention that Nokia's J2ME VM used to be very sucky.) 21:50:59 "J2'3" is also a nice typo for J2ME. 21:51:52 How many *bad codes* have you seen? 21:53:54 Bad codes? 21:54:10 Bad programming codes 21:54:23 There are a lot of bad codes in the user notes in the PHP documentation 21:57:44 By "programming codes" do you mean source code? 21:58:29 Yes 21:58:47 There's tonnes of bad code. 21:59:20 Well, there's bad code, and then there's, like, AMAZINGLY AWFUL code. 21:59:48 * Sgeo_ wonder which describes the code that he tends to write 21:59:58 cpressey, there's tonnes of both. 22:00:46 When I write codes, some people say it is bad but other people say it is good. And then, sometimes I write things which are obviously wrong when I look at it the next day 22:01:26 fizzie, hm 22:01:36 -!- Gregor has joined. 22:01:44 Example code on the internet (forum responses and such) tends to be bad because it tends to be untested. There's a few exceptions, of course. 22:01:59 But it tends not to be AMAZINGLY AWFUL. 22:02:04 Well, there's bad code, and then there's, like, AMAZINGLY AWFUL code. <-- tdwtf? 22:02:53 cpressey, "AMAZINGLY AWFUL" code tends to be tested 22:03:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:03:43 AnMaster: Tested, only nominally. But it does tend to be in production, yes. 22:05:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:05:42 The bad QBASIC program I refer to is a game called "WRY HUMOR". The codes is not even consistent!! In addition, some of the text it contains is like this: " Arachind - An spider like organism with 4 legs" and " Well anyway you get eaten by a grizzly bear for the stupidest reason you could ever think of... (This DOEN'T mean I'm going to tell you!)" 22:06:24 It has line labels named igsdfgjid564: and adizzzermpopopainloasdasaop186: and zzzdadggsdfskevindfmainloop191: and none of them are ever used elsewhere in the program. 22:06:24 cpressey, indeed 22:06:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:07:28 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:07:35 zzo38, they have weird taste in metasyntactic variables? 22:07:38 -!- cal153 has joined. 22:08:33 zzo38, okay the real wtf is that they wrote "An spider" 22:08:35 clearly 22:08:46 (if you don't get the joke there is nothing I can do to help you) 22:08:47 Is a program that runs a game that doesn't allow puzzles to be updated while the game is running "amazingly awful"? 22:09:13 Sgeo_, you completely missed the point 22:09:18 Sgeo_, this is code wise 22:09:20 not UI wise 22:09:37 Seems to be both in this case 22:09:46 well sure 22:09:50 but Sgeo_'s example 22:09:50 There's one function in my code that has way too many anonymous functions and is thus too large 22:10:04 anonymous funcs? 22:10:08 like lambdas? 22:10:14 Large lambdas 22:10:29 so refactor the code 22:10:30 What differentiates those from small lambdas? 22:10:30 Ten- or twenty-page-long lambdas 22:10:43 cpressey, *shudder* 22:10:55 Sgeo_, which code? The robot thing? 22:11:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:11:24 -!- augur has joined. 22:11:38 "robot thing"? If by that, you mean the game 22:13:31 I might. I'm not sure. 22:14:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:15:31 WRY also has inconsistent spacing and indent, and here is some other part of the codes: http://sprunge.us/EFUj 22:16:16 Now you can see how dumb it is. 22:16:31 zzo38: Where did you find this gem? 22:16:55 Some archive of QBASIC programs. Most files there are not that bad, but some are, and this is one of them 22:17:15 PRESS A CERTIAN NUMBER TO CONTINUE!!! 22:17:29 I wonder where Certia is. 22:17:44 Or, indeed, what its numbers are like. 22:18:02 Well, pressable, apparently. 22:18:20 Of course. 22:19:03 Certia appears to be a Finnish company. 22:19:15 Evidently they make numbers. 22:21:16 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 22:21:27 they... make numbers? 22:21:33 that sounds awesome 22:22:04 oklopol, they claim to be some sort of financial thing. 22:22:21 oh 22:22:27 They must make numbers that are better than the competition. 22:22:29 that sounds much boringer. 22:22:59 i thought they were like you know if you need a cool number for like a safe combination in your movie or something 22:23:04 You could probably make a living off patenting large primes, come to think of it. 22:23:04 then you'd call them 22:23:25 and they'd make a number that fits the atmosphere of the movie 22:23:48 yeah i didn't want to reference that aspect because it's been done to death 22:24:01 (these things are very easy to kill) 22:24:13 anyway i should go to slayp 22:24:17 They'd be all "sorry, we're out of numbers right now, but we'll be getting more next Tuesday from our number mines". 22:24:29 number mines :--) 22:24:45 Everything comes from mines. 22:24:57 Refined from ore? 22:25:23 numbore 22:25:27 Yes, they refine primes from large composites extracted from the earth. 22:25:32 haha 22:25:37 That is what I was thinking. 22:25:39 i love it 22:25:41 oklopol, yes they put failed mathematicans to slave in the mines 22:25:53 mathematicians* 22:26:01 lllllllllol at primes refined from composites 22:26:28 Are there failed mathematicians? I thought they were just suboptimally succeeded ones. 22:26:33 AnMaster, no, the mathematicians are used to refine the composites. 22:26:56 Phantom_Hoover, yes. I said the failed ones 22:27:03 fizzie, yes indeed 22:27:14 AnMaster, ah. 22:27:16 composite numbers composite numbers composite numbers composite numbers 22:27:54 Combustible numbers. 22:28:03 oh yes, mine gas 22:28:07 well known hazard 22:28:21 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:28:36 err there aren't any sort of by-products when you refine primes out of composites 22:28:42 that's weird 22:28:48 hmm 22:28:50 oklopol, oh there are 22:28:55 oklopol, decimal points 22:28:57 Then there's the problem of ending up with complexes. 22:29:03 what if we actually extract *reals* 22:29:04 Phantom_Hoover, and that yes 22:29:05 oh 22:29:07 fuck you AnMaster 22:29:16 anyway we could refine rationals out of them 22:29:29 you know hone the edges a bit 22:29:34 oklopol, no, they refine an integer then, and hit it with a hammer 22:29:36 so it cracks 22:29:38 or maybe more file than hone 22:29:44 you get two complementary fractions 22:30:17 How about Gaussian primes? 22:30:25 Phantom_Hoover, what about them? 22:30:35 what's the definition of a gaussian prime 22:30:39 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:30:49 Presumably you refine them from Gaussian integers. 22:30:51 i can probably guess 22:31:00 oklopol, they're like primes, but complex. 22:31:22 Phantom_Hoover, yes they end up as one of the components of the gaussian integer pellets 22:31:30 so you sort them out from them 22:31:53 by refining indeed 22:32:09 And you can split a Gaussian integer into 2 integers. 22:32:12 oklopol, anyway I never got " fuck you AnMaster" 22:32:18 Phantom_Hoover, plus an i 22:32:28 AnMaster, OK, you get some i left over. 22:32:29 one of the halfs get an i 22:32:41 that you need to complement away 22:32:48 a process similar to oxidation 22:33:02 -!- tombom_ has joined. 22:33:08 Phantom_Hoover: i was just wondering whether it's the natural definition or whether it was some sort of pseudodefinition. which was a bit stupid i guess. 22:33:35 i mean for instance you might for some reason want primes to be gaussian primes 22:33:39 filebin down? 22:33:39 AnMaster, lone is are unstable. 22:33:44 in which case i have no idea how you'd define them 22:33:46 Phantom_Hoover, lone? 22:33:53 well 22:33:55 hmm 22:33:56 oh i:s 22:34:01 I don't know why they would be. 22:34:01 Phantom_Hoover, well yes 22:34:04 or does that happen to give them actually 22:34:08 -!- hiato has joined. 22:34:16 They tend to collapse into a real. 22:34:18 yeah no 22:34:46 Phantom_Hoover, _real_ly? 22:34:50 oklopol, primes of the form 4n+3 are Gaussian primes. 22:34:52 characterization on wp says only primes of some form are gaussian 22:34:54 yeah 22:34:58 that one 22:35:00 AnMaster, no, but it sounds gooc. 22:35:06 s/gooc/good/ 22:35:16 Phantom_Hoover, ... you didn't get my joke? 22:35:29 * Phantom_Hoover facepalms 22:35:34 Phantom_Hoover, anyway, not collapse, decay 22:35:38 As much for not getting it as the pun. 22:35:56 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 22:35:57 Phantom_Hoover, hah 22:36:03 Gregor-P, hi 22:36:15 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:36:23 'lo 22:36:29 hi Gregor-P, how many fingers am i holding up 22:36:36 Lo, it is Gregor-P! 22:36:45 -pi/2 22:36:49 oklopol, 3+4i. 22:36:55 A Gaussian prime! 22:37:11 Phantom_Hoover, not !? 22:37:30 No, it's because of the UK keyboard layout. 22:37:39 is next to ! when you have shift on. 22:38:40 so hmm, its length is 5 so if you had two gaussians multiplying to it, one would have |length| = 5 and one |len| = 1, proving it's a prime 22:39:25 Do you like GNU long options? I prefer short options 22:39:44 zzo38, they're all right. 22:40:03 zzo38: what do you think quasiperiodicity should mean? 22:40:08 No, I don't like GNU long options. I like to use short options 22:40:12 oklopol: I don't know 22:40:30 why doesn't anyone have a strong opinion on this 22:40:34 let's see what wp sayd 22:40:36 says 22:40:45 oklopol: Maybe it is like periodicity that it is a different kind changes sometimes? I don't know 22:41:10 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:41:13 What did Knuth announce? 22:41:25 Damn, that's what I meant to ask 22:41:36 pikhq, do you know? 22:41:38 AnMaster: pikhq: 22:42:02 I don't have X ATM. 22:42:03 http://www.answers.com/topic/quasiperiodic-tiling <<< ah, great idea, don't define it at all 22:42:07 no one gets mad! 22:42:12 Also, the announcement doesn't happen for another few hours. 22:42:15 cpressey: 22:42:17 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdd 22:42:21 hoooooooooray wp 22:42:22 pikhq: Oh. 22:42:27 It's only 2:41 PM pacific time. 22:42:29 How many? Dammit. 22:42:36 wait maybe that's not newest wp entry let's check actual wp 22:42:41 ehirdiphone: *clattering of fine china* Hi! 22:42:46 pikhq, you could rebuild from inside X 22:43:08 pikhq: Also, what sort of tone did he use when saying he'd announce something? 22:43:12 Good? Bad? 22:43:28 AnMaster: Not when you're rebuilding dependencies of most everything on X11. 22:43:42 "Earth-shattering" is all I heard. 22:43:49 pikhq, dude I went modular X while running non-modular X 22:43:54 pikhq, on gentoo 22:43:59 My bet: Good - he's making a new typesetting system; bad - disease, TAOCP being handed over to so 22:44:02 pikhq, this was inside konsole even 22:44:07 meone else or cancelled 22:44:12 You're crazy. I don't want things to break. 22:44:21 One or the other. 22:44:27 Good or bad. 22:44:31 He's proved P!=NP 22:44:31 ehirdiphone: Maybe he sold TeX to Oracle. 22:44:38 Some people say some of my codes also bad http://sprunge.us/ajHX they said the body of the argopt_par is the most obscure C codes they ever seen. But it is not obscure. It is not IOCCC. 22:44:44 pikhq, unlikely, same binary 22:44:48 Gregor-NP: Really? 22:44:49 already running 22:44:51 zzo38: i'm not sure what you mean by different kind changes, can you be more precise, assuming we have points, neighborhoods and jumps and a point is periodic if it jumps back to its original spot after a finite amount of jumps (jumps are deterministic) 22:44:53 ehirdiphone: Or he could be announcing the immediate release of the entirety of TAOCP. 22:45:02 ehirdiphone: Maybe he sold TeX to Oracle. <-- or he went open office! 22:45:09 oklopol: I don't really know. I just made up something 22:45:20 I still think he's going to spill the beans on what *really* happened to Dijkstra. 22:45:21 pikhq: Well. No. 22:45:30 Earth shattering implies exciting o 22:45:30 AnMaster: The whole point of this is that the ABI of a fundamental library changed and I don't want runtime linker oddities. 22:45:33 zzo38: you don't really need to know anything to be able to explain what you mean, but okay :) 22:45:33 I think 22:45:36 Not death 22:45:37 I still think he's going to spill the beans on what *really* happened to Dijkstra. <-- what are you talking about? 22:45:44 I think TeX is not a bad thing 22:46:01 ehirdiphone: "I have finished TAoCP. Published immediately." 22:46:02 AnMaster: Lone gunman? Ha! 22:46:13 pikhq: Doubt. 22:46:23 Not likely, no. 22:46:33 It'd involve him writing a few orders of magnitude faster. 22:46:34 I bet major tex revision or new typesetting system 22:46:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/ :( 22:46:53 Most likely. 22:47:04 ehirdiphone, BORING. 22:47:14 Phantom_Hoover: Dude: TeX. 22:47:16 Some people have said my program Icoruma is like TeX. But it is different and has different uses 22:47:18 olsner: My reddit :3 22:47:19 AnMaster: Lone gunman? Ha! <-- what? 22:47:20 Praise be unto TeX. 22:47:24 I was joking :p 22:47:26 I love tex 22:47:30 AnMaster: Just... 22:47:32 For "Earth-shattering" he basically needs P!=NP. 22:47:33 The... 22:47:37 *headdesk* 22:47:41 TeX is not bad thing though 22:47:43 zzo38: Like TeX in design philosophy, not in particular details. 22:47:53 zzo38, no need to repea 22:47:55 repeat 22:47:58 yeah, maybe he dis/proved P=NP or something... that'd be cool 22:48:08 Plain tex ftw 22:48:24 pikhq: OK. I suppose maybe it is, but I wouldn't know because I didn't know much about TeX when I made Icoruma 22:48:27 Fuck latex :P 22:48:33 In both senses! 22:48:38 ehirdiphone, disagree, meh 22:48:44 well in at least one sense 22:48:45 "I have created a true Turing machine." That'd be awesome. 22:48:55 olsner: He so doesn't seem the kind of researcher to be working on that problem, though. 22:48:55 Do you deny the knuth? 22:48:57 pikhq, a true UTM or just TM? 22:48:57 ehirdiphone: In both senses of both words and also of the ":P" sign senses? 22:48:57 Surely we'd have noticed. 22:48:59 Sorry, true Universal ... 22:49:04 AnMaster: UTM. 22:49:07 pikhq, ouch 22:49:14 He got an infinite spool of tape he found at the hardware store. 22:49:15 pikhq: "I have proved... The Bible!" 22:49:15 :P 22:49:21 crickets 22:49:23 ehirdiphone: XD 22:49:28 "...=NP?" 22:49:32 crickets 22:49:56 Prove the Bible? What about the Bible? The Bible is simply a collection of various old books compiled together. 22:50:05 ehirdiphone, I have proven crickets != NP ! 22:50:10 prove that it's the word of god 22:50:15 Some people disagree on some details of how the Bible is compiled together 22:50:21 yeah 22:50:27 but no one disagrees on the fact it's the word of god 22:50:27 And TRYE 22:50:29 oklopol: You can't prove that! You can't really disprove that either though, I guess 22:50:29 or 22:50:33 * TRUE 22:50:35 yeah you can't 22:50:38 but truth isn't about proof 22:50:40 he become allergic to electricity 22:50:41 anyway 22:50:42 Well, Knuth can. 22:50:47 considering it was a some TeX conference 22:50:54 it is likely to be TeX related 22:50:55 no? 22:50:58 God existing is an independent statement 22:51:01 AnMaster: Nah 22:51:08 ehirdiphone, no? 22:51:09 Basically a gathering of knuth fans 22:51:11 ehirdiphone: Yes it is independent statement 22:51:15 More likely though 22:51:20 hm 22:51:21 But not >.5 22:51:33 > .5 prob 22:51:34 ehirdiphone, >.5? 22:51:36 ah 22:51:53 What do *you* think about the argopt_par codes? Do you think these codes is obscure or do you think IOCCC is obscure? 22:52:12 zzo38, I have never heard of the first 22:52:18 zzo38: i thought they looked pretty obscure at a glimpse 22:52:21 So apparently the unit doesn't trust me with overthecounter stuff. pikhq! Woe with me. 22:52:36 "Woe is me", surely? 22:52:36 ehirdiphone, overthecounter stuff? 22:52:41 AnMaster: http://sprunge.us/ajHX 22:52:48 ehirdiphone: That's a liability measure. 22:53:18 zzo38, it makes no sense to me, if tht helps. 22:53:21 AnMaster: Hydrocortisone cream or however you spell it. It's steroidal, must be DEADLY. 22:53:35 Phantom_Hoover: What part makes no sense to you? 22:53:36 If you get fucked up in any way and they let you take OTC drugs on your own, they could quite possibly get sued to hell and back. 22:53:36 (I have eczma and a pollen allergy.) 22:53:54 zzo38, all of it. 22:54:02 ehirdiphone, uhu 22:54:06 night 22:54:06 They haven't found it but a close miss and they mumbled about hydrocortisone before - long story 22:54:07 It's not IOCCC obscure, though. 22:54:08 ehirdiphone: well you might eat it 22:54:24 Phantom_Hoover: Do you understand the comments? 22:54:26 Which is not to say they have any reason to not say "Okay, apply it in front of us", because this is the way reasonable people deal with the legal department being a bunch of paranoid maniacs. 22:54:35 I need it to stop my skin exploding in pain anyway 22:54:38 Of course, then again, these are not reasonable people. 22:55:01 pikhq: They wanted to get it written up by a doctor. ...Like they want to do with PARACETAMOL. 22:55:06 zzo38, I haven't time to read it thoroughly. 22:55:17 ehirdiphone: ... Wait, they wanted to get it *written up*? 22:55:25 "We must write up THIS SOAP. It is medical." 22:55:30 pikhq: Yep. 22:55:38 Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple 22:55:46 At *most* they should demand consent from one of your parents. 22:55:56 I thought paracetamol was not OTC in UK? Or at least, that's what I thought someone said in here? 22:56:00 Phantom_Hoover: All the comments are at the top 22:56:04 It is. 22:56:08 Which, I presume, would be quite easy. 22:56:11 Melatonin isn't 22:56:17 !hc 22:56:22 !hc x 22:56:23 zzo38, why are you so concerned? 22:56:26 !he x 22:56:27 `x 22:56:31 Ffg 22:56:32 "Hey, ehird'smother? Yeah, y'mind him taking hydrocortisone cream? No? Okay." 22:56:35 No output. 22:56:55 Phantom_Hoover: I am just interested what some people opinion are. I suppose people who do not understand C codes it can be confusing that nobody can understand. 22:56:56 !he addquote Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple 22:56:56 `addquote Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple 22:56:58 192| Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple 22:57:28 Best phrasing of that quote ever. 22:57:44 It isn't my quote at first I just rewrote it 22:57:46 pikhq: Did I mention I have to go to bed at 10pm? Sigh. 22:57:52 ehirdiphone: Ouch. 22:57:58 zzo38: And made it AWESOME. 22:58:04 ehirdiphone: OK. 22:58:07 can i see the original 22:58:09 pikhq: Then up at 7... pain... 22:58:29 oklopol: I don't know how to find the original right now 22:58:31 oklopol: Google "all progress depends on unreasonable man" 22:58:40 !google all progress depends on unreasonable man 22:58:41 http://google.com/search?q=all+progress+depends+on+unreasonable+man 22:58:42 ehirdiphone: "Early to bed early to rise", eh? 22:58:59 pikhq: Shut up Franklin. 22:59:09 ehirdiphone: And if they find you have an iPhone, they'll eat it? 22:59:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:59:11 ah okay 22:59:32 cpressey: Confiscate and probably discipline and monitor closer. 22:59:39 zzo38 left out the part where the reasonable people adapt 22:59:49 i assume that was what made it awesome 23:00:03 just everything 23:00:31 now the reasonability is a bit of a non sequitur in the beginning.. wait, i guess it's not a sequitur if it's before? 23:01:03 pikhq: Oh, and they have the audacity to give me "home"work while locked up here. 23:01:14 what kind of homework 23:01:15 ehirdiphone: How inane? 23:01:18 is it about symbolic dynamics 23:01:25 because i know a bit about that stuff 23:01:29 i could help you 23:01:40 pikhq: "Find the area of this shape —GCSE" 23:01:54 ehirdiphone, ugh. 23:02:10 Oh, the busywork that they could've reasonably taught to a 5 year old. 23:02:11 use the dirac measure 23:02:13 and that's really easy 23:02:36 Which I fail surprisingly often at because I'm not given a calculator and mental arithmetic is so tedious that I cut corners. 23:02:50 Take the integral. Smart enough to impress, stupid enough that they'll know what it is. 23:03:08 THEY DO NOT KNOW WGAT AB INTEGRAL IS DUDE 23:03:20 Don't be retarded 23:03:30 ... Oh, right. Most people don't know calculus. 23:03:32 integrals are hard, much easier to use the definition of lebesque measures directly 23:03:34 ehirdiphone, wait, why do they need to give you GCSE questions? 23:03:42 If you will excuse me, I'm going to go be depressed. 23:03:59 The only half decent teacher is the IT one that travels in here on Tuesdays. Who can, you know, differentiate. 23:04:03 I said all comments was at the top, but I am wrong. There are some comments in argopt_get also but only "// Set defaults" and "// Load options" 23:04:10 Phantom_Hoover: I'm 14. 23:04:19 Phantom_Hoover: Do the mental arithmetic. 23:04:30 can he actually differentiate or does he remember what the string substitution is for polynomials and a few other functions 23:04:37 i bet he doesn't know shit 23:04:39 ehirdiphone: Could you at least do something like start from sets and define geometry and then calculate the area from there? 23:04:43 Probably the latter. 23:04:53 "Starting from 3 axioms, I shall compute the area." 23:05:01 ehirdiphone, are they that stupid? 23:05:13 pikhq: They have their standard "blah you need to be able to do this" line. 23:05:19 Phantom_Hoover: To what? 23:05:21 Phantom_Hoover: why would he know? 23:05:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:05:28 oklopol: Most everyone only knows the string substitutions, yeah. 23:05:32 oh you mean stupid enough to give that kind of homework or wht 23:05:33 *what 23:05:41 ehirdiphone: BTW, they're expecting you to do arithmetic on paper. 23:05:50 pikhq: I know. 23:06:04 Which is still UNIMAGINABLY BORING. 23:06:29 What, do they not give numbers that make for easy arithmetic? 23:06:31 numbers are rather boring 23:06:46 pikhq: no, because there would be no challenge then! :D 23:06:49 pikhq: Well, it's easy. Just so tedious. 23:06:51 xxxxxD 23:06:53 Most such things I've had experience with tend to go for easy, easy multiplication. Powers of 10 and the like. 23:07:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 23:07:13 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 23:07:13 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 23:07:23 More like 3.2 * 5.3 * 4 which is not hard of course. 23:07:26 But, then, I last did geometry for class when I was, oh... 12. 23:07:32 ehirdiphone: That's cruel. 23:07:41 Not because it's hard but because, well. Fuck that shit. 23:07:52 But, you know, I don't have intimate familiarity with long multiplication because it sucks. 23:08:09 Fat juicy cocks, it sucks. 23:08:25 i've never seen geometry done at all rigorously, i hear it's really boring 23:08:27 pikhq: The geometry was too easy so MULTIPLY! 23:08:36 hmm wait 23:08:43 that one paper about how math is taught wrong 23:08:44 oklopol: read Euclid :P 23:08:58 -!- coppro has joined. 23:08:58 -!- jix has joined. 23:09:06 ehirdiphone, what sort of shapes are we talking about? 23:09:21 oklopol: It's taught in a manner that would make Euclid laugh at how basic it is. 23:09:22 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:09:25 -!- jix has joined. 23:09:33 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 23:09:33 it said geometry is done, in whatever country the writer was in, rigorously in the sense that they used a few axioms and shit 23:09:33 ehirdiphone: not very rigorous afaik 23:09:33 the axioms are mostly for guiding intuition 23:09:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:09:36 and new ones are added without proof when useful 23:09:36 Phantom_Hoover: A +! An H! A rectangle with a zigzagging side! 23:09:38 Which is pretty impressive considering how far math has moved in the past, oh, 2000 years. 23:09:49 ehirdiphone: Do you have any access to books? Or would reading be considered subversive? 23:09:50 [Sorry, connection error] 23:10:00 I didn't read it 23:10:17 cpressey: I could ask to go to the library or bring in my own. 23:10:18 ehirdiphone: So fucking tedious. 23:10:33 ehirdiphone: yes what journals do they have access to 23:10:33 ehirdiphone: Now for the depressing bit: people actually think math is THE ABILITY TO COMPUTE THAT STUFF. 23:10:47 But why reduce my enjoyment of a boom by Reading it tired and depressed? 23:10:51 THEY THINK THAT MATH IS COMPUTATION. 23:10:59 *book *reading 23:11:09 pikhq, surprised? 23:11:15 pikhq: that's so depressing i'm not bothered by the fact saying that has been done to death. that's pretty depressing. 23:11:29 pikhq: "I'm a very visual mathematician." -one of the teachers 23:11:30 oklopol: It has been said a lot, sure. 23:11:31 You barely touch real mathematics in school. 23:11:31 They are confusing math with doing math? I suppose it is easy to get confused if you do not understand 23:11:35 And a lot of people do not understand 23:11:35 But it's true and AARGH 23:11:43 what is weird is i still have to explain it to everyone 23:11:47 There's this word "arithmetic" that no one uses. 23:11:59 even people i've already explained it to 23:12:00 And even "doing math" does not always involve computation 23:12:01 they don't believe me 23:12:06 #include ? What bullshit! 23:12:19 I see no math in math.h. 23:12:20 Phantom_Hoover: Calculus is really where actual math starts in school, yeah. 23:12:26 If I had a penny for every time someone has said "Hey, you're good at maths, right? What's the square root of pi?" 23:12:32 And even then, they try their hardest to make it just computation. 23:12:43 I would be able to throw them at people who asked that wort of question. 23:12:49 "I'm a very visual mathematician." -one of the teachers <== just gonna repeat this forever 23:12:50 And I took calculus class in school 23:13:06 ehirdiphone: I like how numbers *look*. 23:13:14 What exactly does it mean to be "a very visual mathematician"? 23:13:27 ehirdiphone: i'm a very visual mathematician too 23:13:52 ehirdiphone: Ask him about some nice and beautiful 4D shapes. 23:14:02 zzo38: Substitute "arithmetician" for "mathematician", then substitute "idiot" for the entire sentence. 23:14:15 I have to go. Keep on keepin' on... 23:14:17 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:14:19 Just something simple like "How d'you like them hypercubes?" or "Man, Klein bottles are awesome, aren't they?" 23:14:25 pikhq: Do not insult the ~womanly maths/art teacher~ 23:14:35 Yes. Maths and art. 23:14:35 ehirdiphone: OK...? 23:14:35 I'll grant that this hardly even touches on anything at all, but still. 23:14:37 Woooooooo 23:14:41 math is art 23:14:51 it's science and it's art 23:14:56 and yet it's neither 23:14:58 it's magic 23:15:05 personally i love math 23:15:13 let me give you some definitions 23:15:17 Abortion would be art for this moron >_> Ohh I went there 23:15:41 I can imagine a mathematically inclined person doing well in art. But this is apparently a computationally inclined person. 23:15:41 the definition kurka gives for quasiperiodicity is as follows, although let me refresh your memory on dynamical systems first 23:15:45 (Yes I am suggesting she remove herself fro 23:15:52 m the gene pool) 23:16:03 we assume a simply system, compact metric space X with a continuous function f supplying the dynamics 23:16:08 pikhq: She didn't understand negative exponents. 23:16:23 She doubly didn't understand non-integral ones. 23:16:34 a point x is quasiperiodic if, given any neighborhood U of x, there is such a p that f^jp(x) \in U for all j 23:16:38 ehirdiphone: Oh dear god. And this woman is *teaching* computation? 23:16:55 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: tiuq\). 23:16:56 pikhq: ^_^ 23:17:09 ehirdiphone: Does that mean some people have to eat her arm and other people have to do scientific experiment with her blood? Or does it mean she has to go to the moon and die from lack of air? 23:17:12 the definition of almost periodicity in kurka's book, and curiously the definition of quasiperiodicity in tilings and patterns literature, goes as follows: 23:17:19 Clearly she should be *taught* computation. 23:17:27 Or at least mathematics. 23:17:32 zzo38: Ooh, how do i decide?!?! 23:17:42 They're both so appealing... 23:17:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:17:55 ehirdiphone: I don't know. You decide using the method you want to choose how to decide. 23:17:58 a point x is almost periodict if, given any neighborhood U of x, there is such a p that given any n there is a 0 <= k < p such that f^(n+k)(x) \in U 23:18:09 so we have a bound on the return times 23:18:19 zzo38: Can't we do both? 23:18:21 let's see what you've been talking about 23:18:36 ehirdiphone: OK, do both if that is what you prefer! 23:18:49 yay 23:19:22 pikhq: Break into my room to tell me what knuth announces k 23:19:47 Rhe window doesn't open much you'll have to s 23:19:52 break it 23:19:56 *The 23:19:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:20:00 *much, 23:20:04 *no s 23:20:18 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 23:20:18 might be interested to see someone who thinks they know math but doesn't 23:20:21 *interesting 23:20:26 because 23:20:32 ehirdiphone: Why don't you just use morse code, and then you don't have to break the window, whoever is inside can open it. You only need to break it if there is nobody inside 23:20:38 they might actually try to follow when i start lecturing 23:20:39 And that you don't have the key. 23:20:44 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 23:20:46 sentient egg-timers 23:20:49 But maybe it would be better to pick the lock instead? 23:21:02 zzo38: On ... What? 23:21:11 On the door next to the window 23:21:12 I'm in a mental institution... 23:21:24 There is no such door. 23:21:30 could one of you define something now? there's a lot of forth but very little back here imo 23:21:45 ehirdiphone: O, that is why there is no reverse DNS...... OK. 23:21:54 zzo38: Wat 23:22:00 I'm on an iPhone :P 23:22:06 Your connection shows no reverse DNS 23:22:11 Odd. M 23:22:17 it might be interesting to be in a mental institution 23:22:24 especially trying to get out 23:22:27 Maybe i'm just hallucinating zzo38 23:22:30 and also the crazy people 23:22:34 oklopol: Its not. 23:22:51 They have powers far beyond locks. 23:23:13 yeah that's the challenge 23:23:19 point is not to try to run out 23:23:28 Evade sectioning? 23:23:32 point is to trick them into thinking your sane 23:23:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:23:36 -!- TokeyTheBong has joined. 23:23:36 *you're 23:23:41 If you figure out how. Let me know. 23:23:44 :P 23:23:58 You can make up a text-adventure game? 23:24:07 i'm not sure i'd ever get out of a place like that 23:24:12 TAKE MEDICATION 23:24:13 -!- TokeyTheBong has left (?). 23:24:19 OPEN WINDOW 23:24:25 The window doesn't open. 23:24:29 SCREAM 23:24:43 Open the ceiling 23:24:47 You are in a straitjacket. Men are comforting you. 23:24:57 Die 23:25:10 You have no means of suicide. 23:25:14 Dye 23:25:26 they removed his teeth? 23:25:30 Or pigmenting. 23:25:41 oklopol: wat. 23:25:42 OK 23:25:50 " You have no means of suicide." 23:25:54 Are you suggesting I... gnaw my leg off? 23:26:02 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:26:10 a crazy person should be able to bite somewhere important 23:26:18 yeah 23:26:22 gnaw your leg off 23:26:29 Crazy != flexible 23:26:32 GNAW LEG OFF 23:26:47 I CAN'T REACH 23:26:48 err, you don't have to be flexible to be able to put your foot in your mouth 23:26:49 Gnawing a leg off: a widely recognized sign of sanity. 23:27:01 <3 fizzie 23:27:08 (how many of you bit your foot just now?) 23:27:14 oklopol: Leg != foot 23:27:30 both easily reachable though 23:27:35 I don't eat my foot. I bite my arm sometimes 23:27:43 You do it 23:27:49 I can't eat my foot 23:27:55 i like biting my big toe and letting my leg rest in the grip 23:27:55 It is too far away 23:28:01 well 23:28:03 not completely 23:28:07 because that would hurt 23:28:13 but a bit 23:28:20 "Sorry, I don't know how to EAT FOOT." 23:28:32 I like the idea of your foot being far away. 23:28:45 my feet taste like pee 23:28:53 i should go to sleep 23:28:59 thanks oklopol 23:29:03 I don't want to eat your foot either because you probably need your foot for walking 23:29:03 :D 23:29:04 nice to know 23:29:11 that was a lie, actually 23:29:21 why would they taste like pee 23:29:25 zzo38: thought you said wanking, was a bit confused 23:29:40 that might need some flexibility 23:30:02 or hmm i guess not 23:30:04 I use my to masturbate! 23:30:08 *spine 23:30:52 4 hours 30 minutes sleep time left 23:30:52 I don't care about masturbate. But I need to walk and write and so on 23:31:19 those are important things 23:31:42 i think they are both more important than masturbation 23:31:50 oklopol: sex or the ability to walk?? 23:31:55 answer quickly 23:31:56 writing slightly more important than walking i think 23:32:00 :D 23:32:03 i can't answer that quickly 23:32:10 sex probably 23:32:17 Good to know 23:32:21 yeah 23:32:27 Depends on people. Different people have different opinion and it has to be that way 23:32:38 I'll saw off your legs then oklopol 23:32:41 yeah 23:32:44 i got it 23:32:49 If not I would kill your gf so yeah 23:32:53 See you there 23:32:54 oh 23:32:59 i thought you'd saw off my dick 23:33:08 i mean i can always get a new gf 23:33:13 but i can't get a new dick 23:33:13 you could turn gay 23:33:18 oh 23:33:19 true 23:33:19 and bottom 23:33:22 yeah 23:33:28 Or strapon 23:33:46 oklopol: Ill just saw off your entire genital area 23:33:57 then superglue the legs back on 23:34:01 hmm 23:34:08 enjoy your colostomy 23:34:38 well my granpa died of colon cancer or something so maybe it would be safer that way? 23:35:10 oklopol: I could just cut off your balls 23:35:21 No testosterone, no sex drivw 23:35:29 *drive 23:35:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:36:18 Hi pikhq weve been talkijg abiut castration 23:36:34 i don't think that's how it works 23:36:46 Or does it!??????? 23:36:51 12345567890 23:36:52 pikhq: Perhaps you can read log file and then you will know 23:37:02 Why did you write 5 twice? 23:37:03 spot the wrong 23:37:12 * oklopol spotted 23:37:19 it's the 0 23:37:21 you spot tjhe wrong! Yay jx 23:37:22 it should be in the beginning 23:37:30 oklopol: NO I UAE KEY BIARS 23:37:40 If has fhe numbras thus manner 23:37:53 12374(6890 23:38:07 well now that looks even more weirder. 23:38:14 lol seriously i have to go 23:38:20 GO 23:38:22 things are making less and less sense 23:38:26 01928374()!!?.£i882 23:38:31 could someone define something first tho? 23:38:32 PLEASE GO 23:38:33 Gyat is correkf order 23:38:42 oklopol: Defibe. Xhixjeboiz 23:38:48 Just define chichkenpoz 23:38:50 Pox 23:38:54 Jees oklopol 23:38:57 YOU HAVE TO "OAIJWEG9MPAJ4WTMPOI4JTLZSV0I0JH4T" AT FIRST 23:39:03 Shats tiur anti face 23:39:04 -!- relet has left (?). 23:39:28 you're BAD friends. 23:39:30 -> 23:39:41 zzo38: Aditionsly I agree but what I'd we dud open up the universpectrummy 23:39:49 (j/k <3 u) 23:40:09 ehirdiphone: I don't know. 23:43:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: I quit.). 23:58:56 Ggg 23:59:49 Night, bye 23:59:54 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).