< 1276905661 0 :scshunt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call it when a piece of music starts on a beat other than #1, and how do you get Rosegarden to do this? < 1276905828 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276905885 0 :scshunt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mind is blanking < 1276906190 0 :scshunt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1276906512 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1276906558 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276906684 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1276906684 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1276906908 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h146.52.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276906953 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1276907012 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1276907072 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276907431 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1276907703 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276907795 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276908550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276909663 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1276909726 0 :Ilari_antrcomp2!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1276909755 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276909767 0 :Ilari_antrcomp2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari_antrcomp < 1276912102 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1276912109 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1276912109 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1276912122 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1276912136 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a legend. < 1276912224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276912232 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that happen? < 1276912316 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I made my first good CA today. < 1276912504 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can replace the one south of Oregon with your good one. Or the one north of the US. < 1276912517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hyuk hyuk* < 1276912529 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1276912542 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant cellular automaton. :P < 1276912729 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1276912868 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realize that :P < 1276913337 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1276913408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, oh? < 1276913449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leBMD, link? < 1276913473 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=434 < 1276913917 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539] < 1276914131 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h31.44.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276914168 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1276914172 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1276914179 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1276914180 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1276914182 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276914230 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, what do you think? < 1276914530 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276915129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leBMD, sorry was busy < 1276915140 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ok < 1276915159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leBMD, um any images? < 1276915163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have golly locally < 1276915184 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, not right now < 1276915194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leBMD, will comment on it when that is up < 1276915200 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1276915259 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: stuff < 1276915479 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have there been any grammatical case based languages? < 1276915630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1276915637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no not an answer to the question) < 1276915641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just, good night) < 1276916277 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: Perl versions < 6.0 have features inspired by case in natural languages. < 1276916284 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scalary and array context. < 1276916286 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-y < 1276916330 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing too revolutionary < 1276916619 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276916690 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello sweeties < 1276916709 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is burning through haskell, so far it's a nice language with no shittiness < 1276916825 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-200-100.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276917426 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTURAMFAUFMA < 1276917483 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY FEKK THAT'S RIGHT < 1276919259 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-203-81.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276920580 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276920580 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1276921033 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276922980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know a web server that responds on every port? < 1276923766 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276927800 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276927868 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some crazy idea, that if you have /dev/webcam is a block device to access picture from webcam, then you can mount it as a filesystem by putting some paper with barcodes in front of the camera and then use the mount command....... < 1276928153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy SHIT < 1276928159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perry Bible Fellowship updated < 1276928212 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This crazy idea is one of the most crazy idea probably < 1276928296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1276928309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly possible, but not very *useful*. < 1276928482 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1276928505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably isn't very useful. But it is useful to have /dev/webcam to be a block device to access the raw picture. It is less useful to mount it as a filesystem. < 1276929370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. That's stupid. There's a "list of the best 10 Pixar films". < 1276929377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There have only *been* 10 Pixar films. < 1276929474 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, the list is all of them, it should be? Until, they make more films, and then they will update the list if any of the new ones are better. (If they make bad films then they don't have to update the list) < 1276929489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... < 1276929503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure Pixar is (currently) capable of making bad films. < 1276929524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their worst one so far was merely "pretty good". < 1276930004 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is? < 1276930044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cars. < 1276930058 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1276930212 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276930309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: IMDB claims 55 :P < 1276930338 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1276930392 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that list includes shorts and TV episodes. Foo. < 1276930402 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, specials and other irrelevant drivel. < 1276930406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pixar's done quite a lot of shorts. < 1276930420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That list also includes movies in production. < 1276930819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276931695 0 :scshunt!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1276932513 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276934399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1276934400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1276934707 0 :scshunt!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1276934730 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276934967 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276935339 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAARGH < 1276935355 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compression of my home folder failed. < 1276935572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276935978 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-14-53.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276936386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276936763 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h31.44.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276936767 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got an idea < 1276936805 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps we could solve N=NP by using the process calculii to create constructions of a UTM that can solve nondeterministic problems at O(n) < 1276939463 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1276939464 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1276939464 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1276939508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, P=NP surely? < 1276940171 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1276940714 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, will the compression of my home directory work if I log out and switch user? < 1276940721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that nothing is modified? < 1276941035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276941300 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1276942051 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1276942081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : although I don't think there's anything in Formula that fails if you implement it by calculating decimal expansions lazily < 1276942088 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1276942163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parts which need to be tested for exact equality with an integer might fail if you hit upon a formula which is unexpectedly an integer (like some n*e*pi things) < 1276942202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. it's an unsolved problem whether e*pi is rational) < 1276942313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be hard even with something more complicated than lazy evaluation, too < 1276942495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wareya: Perl versions < 6.0 have features inspired by case in natural languages. < 1276942499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Perligata < 1276942757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : perhaps we could solve N=NP by using the process calculii to create constructions of a UTM that can solve nondeterministic problems at O(n) < 1276942808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N? < 1276942823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not without doing something insanely clever. an ordinary UTM needs something like time proportional to the number of processes to simulate them < 1276942849 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: obviously a typo for P < 1276942856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just learned that windows has a log viewer, and i used it to find out why it shut down during the night, god i'm cool < 1276942858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276942909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what process calculii is so i assumed N is a complexity class that has to do with it < 1276942917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and redefining the P=NP problem to use a different kind of underlying TM doesn't solve the _original_ problem. < 1276942928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i assumed he meant something like pi calculus < 1276942990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually my guess was N means some class to do with pi calculus < 1276943029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if N was a weird name for its polynomial time stuff-it-can-solve problem, then N=NP might be open mightn't it < 1276943060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and CakeProphet would definitely know this because he's a complexity theory guru < 1276943081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it's a well known theorem that if you try to extend your underlying model with _oracles_ (essentially a subroutine for solving some specific problem), then you can choose the oracle either such that P=NP or such that P != NP in the "relativized" model < 1276943093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276943118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it really well known < 1276943127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned it like a month ago < 1276943169 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i don't know what N alone means in complexity theory (probably something), but if he typoed an L instead then it _would_ have been an open problem < 1276943177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw isn't P=NP with an oracle sort of trivial if you just take some ridiculously good oracle? < 1276943185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's well known among complexity theorists :D < 1276943191 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, L!=PSPACE but otherwise all open < 1276943199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1276943221 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1276943237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because it makes a _lot_ of the methods they use unusable for deciding P=NP < 1276943252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most of the methods "relativize") < 1276943262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay i guess it might be one of the first things you hear about complexity theory because it has to do with the only problem people are interested in, the famous P=NP problem that asks whether polynomial time is the same as not-polynomial time, otherwise known as the quantum computation model. < 1276943286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276943291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that too! < 1276943293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats oklopol -----### < 1276943314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know you were joking, but still... < 1276943331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know the specifics yet tho, but soon i will know more than you... wait how much more do you know? < 1276943336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know left sets < 1276943348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is a left set < 1276943354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait also we have a course about complexity theory next fall < 1276943490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er i forgot a detail about the definition :D < 1276943526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait is it that thing about context-free grammars? < 1276943597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you construct a _regular_ language that describes how a left part of a string in the original language can be constructed < 1276943642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not though < 1276943646 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay umm lol i can't remember exactly under pressure, but i think for a problem in NP, its left set is (x, w) where x is an instance in the language, and w is a string such that there's a witness y with w<=y < 1276943668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the idea is this problem is in NP too because you can guess the witness < 1276943680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then we can do sort of interval pruning to find the maximal witness < 1276943711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is used to show P=NP if(f) there are sparse sets that are NP-hard (with bounded truth-table reduction) < 1276943712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1276943727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276943747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complexity theory book i'm reading starts with two trivial algorithms and then this theorem, the proof of which is something like 8 pages < 1276943765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1276943772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity theory companion < 1276943908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually read a whole book, i've read _some_ of papadimitriou < 1276944016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i know like why QBF is complete for PSPACE, that was sort of the most complicated thing i learned there i think < 1276944032 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P=NP if co-NP has a sparse hard set is pretty easy btw, lets say you can reduce to that sparse set from sat with f, then basically you just enumerate partially solved sat instances, and the amount of them you need to keep track of is polynomial, because if you have two partially solved instances a and b and f(a) = f(b) then one is true if the other is, and if there are more than p(n) f(x) values where p is the growth rate polynomial < 1276944036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wordy < 1276944043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll repeat half for fun < 1276944044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you have two partially solved instances a and b and f(a) = f(b) then one is true if the other is, and if there are more than p(n) f(x) values where p is the growth rate polynomial of the sparse set, then one of the instances must be satisfiable < 1276944152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain is too rusty for that today < 1276944171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the set contains at most p(n) strings of length n, where n is your sat instance length, so if you map to p(n)+1 different strings of length n, one of them can't be in the set < 1276944202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, well i realized there are a few details you need to understand before you can appreciate the easiness of the underlying idea < 1276944207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276944216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1276944232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the left set proof i still have no idea what the underlying idea is, and i've read it like 3 times < 1276944273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1276944273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1276944273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1276944273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1276944282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lately, the last complexity proof i've read is a proof that you can do integer division and arithmetic stuff in logspace. hm i probably mentioned it. < 1276944291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1276944300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :division is surprisingly hard < 1276944302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear < 1276944305 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1276944310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was actually somewhat stronger than logspace, but that's the result i was interested in) < 1276944408 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so if there's a tally set, subset of 1* that is, that's np-hard, then also p=np, we reduce sat to it, then again you only need a polynomial amt of instances, because if one of them has f-image that's not of 1* form, then it's unsatisfiable, and if two have the same image, again you can remove one of them because one is satisfiable if the other one is < 1276944410 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that easier? < 1276944424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _tried_ starting to read the result that SL = L but that had a lot of unknown graph theory at the bottom so just too much work < 1276944434 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SL= < 1276944435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1276944440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superlog < 1276944444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symmetric < 1276944458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that tells me everything < 1276944479 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually tells me nothing < 1276944486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially you have a nondeterministic turing machine where if you take a step one way you can always take it in reverse < 1276944487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just screwing you < 1276944496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276944515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is L with a nondet tm or det? < 1276944518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it even matter < 1276944531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be technical reasons why that is too simple explanation but that's the gist < 1276944542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L is det, NL is nondet. N = NL is still open < 1276944551 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276944585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1276944598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the other simpler way to say it is that SL is the set of problems for which "undirected graph reachability" is complete (under log-reductions) < 1276944609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for NL drop the undirected < 1276944641 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8\ < 1276944666 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's open whether dijkstra's algorithm can solve all problems in NP? < 1276944670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so restricting to undirected graph makes it simpler < 1276944677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: um what is that? < 1276944695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it graph reachability < 1276944720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it's one of the three algorithms people know by name < 1276944760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graph reachability is complete for NL. that is an important theorem as it also can be used to deduce other space things < 1276944760 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point was just to show how badly i must've misunderstood the sense in which reachability is complete < 1276944788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know why L <= P, is that obvious? < 1276944792 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: NL, not NP < 1276944799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's obvious < 1276944821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have only logarithmic space then if you run for more than P time you must cycle < 1276944826 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol true < 1276944852 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean intuitively, i'm not sure i could fill in the details < 1276944880 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPACE(f(n)) <= TIME(exp(f(n)) < 1276944904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1276944951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is sort of obvious < 1276944965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dijkstra's algorithm is that just marking every vertex you can reach from those you already have, until you've either got to the one you want or have none left to try? < 1276944987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with some book keeping to avoid duplicating work) < 1276945021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's another important algorithm for graph reachability which uses more time but less space < 1276945027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you also find the shortest path so you need to be greedy in that aspect < 1276945048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically it does reachability in O(log(n)^2) space < 1276945056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go where you've gone least distance sofar < 1276945087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that with the completeness result gives the important theorem NSPACE(f(n)) <= SPACE(f(n)^2) as a corollary < 1276945103 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so n would be number of edges or what? < 1276945110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertices + edges maybe < 1276945111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1276945120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then log(n)^2 means.... < 1276945126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it doesn't matter when you log < 1276945147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :log(n) means that you can essentially store an index to a vertex < 1276945166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear amount of indices and linear additional shit < 1276945185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay i think i have a grasp of what logarithms mean < 1276945197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :log(n)^2 means you can essentially store a stack of indexes while recursing in a divide and conquer manner. at least that's what the algorithm does :D < 1276945199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a hard time getting any sort of concrete view of what logspace actually means < 1276945210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for the implementer < 1276945215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of an algo < 1276945243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: as wikipedia said, a finite set of pointers + a logarithmic set of bit values < 1276945289 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i don't see how you can do the d&q < 1276945348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: to check if there is a path from v1 to v2 of length <= n, iterate through all vertices v checking if there's a path from v1 to v and from v to v2 of length <= n/2 < 1276945348 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you know when you're in a loop with finite pointers < 1276945355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1276945374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's the same idea they use for PSPACE searches < 1276945377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course with some base case < 1276945391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yep, that's essentially the same thing < 1276945424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the QBF proof used a lot of that reachability stuff < 1276945438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well the proof i have internalized, anyhow < 1276945444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol iterate through all vertices, ofc you can do THAT, for some reason i thought you meant iterate through all vertices ON THE PATH BETWEEN V1 AND V2, which i found hard to do for some reason....... :D < 1276945458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276945493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and of course there is the even weirder proof that reachability _is_ in NL < 1276945514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum brainfuck is... quantified... okay what < 1276945518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum bit fields < 1276945525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should probably know this < 1276945526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276945535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean formulas? < 1276945547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all the "quantum" languages on the wiki may be properly quantum < 1276945561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there was a quantum brianfuck? < 1276945564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor brian < 1276945597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks < 1276945671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm not sure if that's a proper one < 1276945684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has qubits at least < 1276945695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so okay qbf is qsat < 1276945715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl usually knows what he's talking about, or at least knows if he doesn't < 1276945716 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl < 1276945718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it proper < 1276945755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and so < 1276945763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i've read the proof that it's complete too < 1276945769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1276945811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait actually you need to implement a tm in the circuitry right? < 1276945840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've just read a rough description of how doing it is similar to proving sat is complete for np < 1276945853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe i haven't really read anything < 1276945885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1276945904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're talking about the qbf i mentioned, not some quantum stuff? < 1276945909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sat completeness proof i read from the 50's or something implemented some sort of BASIC derivative with guessing < 1276945911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :D < 1276945933 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry quantum brainfuck was just the acronym that got expanded by accident < 1276945937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got confused there and thought i was heavily out-maneuvered :D < 1276945943 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1276945968 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about quantum computation, please teach me everything about it < 1276945978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i know not very much more < 1276945988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a few researchers doing exactly that here, but they don't teach < 1276946027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well they do teach engineers how to copypaste laplace transforms from their cheatsheets < 1276946044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually they have this massive book of them < 1276946050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for qbf you can essentially encode the complete state graph of a turing machine using boolean logical predicates < 1276946087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly do you mean by complete state graph < 1276946091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you formulate that O(log(n)^2) search in logic, and get a qbf formula < 1276946127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a graph where a vertex is a possible state of the whole TM, including the tape (polynomially bounded though) < 1276946146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an edge if there is a transition step < 1276946204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the size of this graph is exponential, but when you do the search you take the log again so it all works out < 1276946241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i get that, but what i don't get, i think, is how exactly that shows completeness < 1276946304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1276946307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well you search for a path between the initial state of the TM and any accepting state < 1276946317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that i recalled the definition of PSPACE, i think i'm starting to see it... < 1276946325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knew that might be important < 1276946370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the qbf formula you end up with is of polynomial size, naturally < 1276946388 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where was this proof? < 1276946394 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :papa? < 1276946405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that's where i read it < 1276946432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure if i really read it that way or just distilled out the essence of what it said < 1276946440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a mention of it in CTC, but at least the proof of completeness of sat they just have as a note in the back of the book < 1276946462 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not very detailed < 1276946472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276946483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the proof because it combines so many of the other methods used for L,NL,P,NP stuff < 1276946513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like using the evolution state graph of a TM, encoding that using boolean logic... < 1276946532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where else are evolution graphs used < 1276946550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NL completeness < 1276946560 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1276946569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a sense for proving SAT is NP-complete too < 1276946591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you split up each vertex into many boolean variables again < 1276946675 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err umm. < 1276946688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not a very convincing example < 1276946707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the SAT proof includes the time evolution of the TM, anyhow < 1276946754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm yes < 1276946798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the NL and PSPACE cases actually use graph algorithms on the resulting time steps < 1276946879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a prob P in np solved by tm T you, given a string s, to check whether it's in P, make a sat instance that is true iff T accepts s, and this is easy because you have a polynomial amt of steps you need at most so you just need to encode, ah, a time evolution of T < 1276946907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1276946992 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically if you need p(n) steps at most, you make a p(n) x p(n) square, and assert for each line that you get it from the previous line by using the rewrite rules of the tm (each line has an ID of the tm) < 1276947003 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc you know all this, i'm just saying it for me < 1276947035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276947115 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the sat is true for a configuration if there's a tape head in accepting state in one of the squares, so it's satisfiable iff there's a run of the tm, starting from the config induced by s, that accepts < 1276947131 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, i could probably fill in the exact proof < 1276947136 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it's sort of trivial < 1276947174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(configuration being a consistent placement of values in the rest of the squares) < 1276947241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a simple but powerful idea < 1276947249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to do some work now i think, i feel all dirty if i don't work during my weekends < 1276947252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276947255 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sexy < 1276947304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know "shifts dynamical systems"? < 1276947309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shift < 1276947317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly < 1276947328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know why they have such a weird name < 1276947360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are dynamical systems where the transformation is a shift of a sequence < 1276947377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know all finite groups can be embedded in the automorphism group of the full 1-dimensional shift? < 1276947400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but why not say dynamical shift systems or something, i don't see how shift dynamical system is even english < 1276947401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot say i recall that result :D < 1276947438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dynamical system" is a unit there < 1276947488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1276947551 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can embed a finite permutation group: given permutation p you make an automorphism by having u*string*v always be transformed to u*p(string)*v, where u and v are chosen so that these can't overlap < 1276947593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i know all groups are isomorphic to permutation groups < 1276947707 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276947720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now clearly the map from a permutation group to those is injective (just give them something to permute and they'll permute differently), and t(p1)t(p2) = t(p1p2) because clearly doing two transformations after each other does u*s*v -> u*p2(s)*v -> u*p1(p2(s))*v < 1276947732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the transformations always leave everything outside u*s*v patterns unchanged < 1276947754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276947758 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, the only thing i don't see is why you can choose u and v like that < 1276947769 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276947780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1^(2n) 0 s 0 (10)^n < 1276947788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where |s| = n < 1276947800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, maybe you need to require something of s too < 1276947805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no < 1276947832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1^(2n) can't be anywhere but in the beginning < 1276947836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no overlap < 1276947864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right you divide the whole sequence at 1^(2n) 0 points i guess < 1276947864 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and u = 1^(2n) 0, v = 0 (10)^n of course < 1276947881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1276947908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a transformation given by permutation p sees such a pattern, it'll rewrite what comes after < 1276947929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by permuting it < 1276947950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and, it should be easy to see that this is a block map, and that it's invertible < 1276947986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure you actually need (10)^n at the end... < 1276948018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise what if there's ... 1^(2n) 0 1^(2n) 0 ... inside a string < 1276948047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strings have length n you said < 1276948049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you rewrite (1^(2n) 0)^ww (w being omega) < 1276948052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1276948069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the transformations we're compiling permutations to are maps from the full shift to itself < 1276948107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1276948111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the transformations need to behave like the group on ANY bi-infinite string in the full shift < 1276948162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... 1^(2n) 0 1^(2n) 0 1^(2n) 0 ... has 1^(2n) 0 1^n inside it in two ways, what does a transformation t permutation p compiles to do on such input? < 1276948196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i said to drop (10)^n, not 0 (10)^n < 1276948203 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 0 alone is enough, i think < 1276948205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay sorry < 1276948222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot it was there so i thought you were somehow fundamentally lost < 1276948230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah should be enough < 1276948247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually used that when proving to myself that the pattern can't overlap itself < 1276948253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and couldn't you also reduce 2n to n+1 < 1276948262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes clearlyy < 1276948264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*clearly < 1276948281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1276948308 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i haven't really thought about that, because i think it's intuitively clear u and v can be chosen SOMEHOW, perhaps because it's rather common to do that in combinatorics on words < 1276948343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the paper this is from is not the best thing ever written < 1276948355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scandalous! < 1276948383 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-36-166.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1276948392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same one that proved stuff like "ca rules that look only to the right can only rotate a sequence to the left" with a rather complicated formal proof < 1276948421 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276948422 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1276948478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...right < 1276948488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an old classic, a collection of stuff proved sofar when the field was young, by hedlund, sort of starting the thing < 1276948495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that _does_ sound obvious (that you cannot rotate right) < 1276948570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it needs proof, the proof could be as follows: ...1:000... and ...0:000... are rewritten in the same way < 1276948576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err the 000... part is < 1276948594 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't get 1 to pop up in just one < 1276948627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1276948631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i dunno maybe the details aren't completely trivial < 1276948640 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up < 1276948667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what, mhm is my way of saying i have nothing to say, without looking absent < 1276948673 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276948687 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276948718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that on an intellectual level, but i... wait actually i just recalled i don't admit i have anything else < 1276948726 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-22-104.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1276948735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have no idea what just happened < 1276948741 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaanyway about that stuff i have to do < 1276948743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should do it < 1276948747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon i will < 1276948762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe one more proof first < 1276948778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1276948783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human communication should be more like this < 1276948792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey dude listen to this result i just read" < 1276948816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1276948831 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1276948831 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1276948855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously! ---> < 1276948858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cu < 1276948886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Me four, er, two, wait what < 1276949040 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-106.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1276949149 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276949149 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1276950513 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1276951237 0 :waga!5061cadd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.97.202.221 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276951239 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276951380 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1276951382 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1276951936 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1276953970 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276955328 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.123.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276955701 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1276956208 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276956350 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276956498 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276956772 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276957001 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1276957172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised that if you watch "Caretaker", then "Endgame", you miss nothing except that Seven of Nine suddenly appears. < 1276957177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such is the power of the HMS Reset Button. < 1276957605 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1276958445 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276958482 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I added a way to add IRC commands by script < 1276958551 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/HKGi < 1276958650 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to make it as simple as reasonable possible so as to not overload the server < 1276958921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, someone actually bothered to clean up the video on the DVD release of The Next Generation and then encoded it all with x264 on super-high settings, yielding a 550 MiB-per-episode average. < 1276958939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only issue is that it's over 10 gibibytes per season. < 1276959032 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that fits on 3 discs per season, doesn't it? < 1276959051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define disc... < 1276959077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: No player that takes discs could play H.264, I don't think, and it'd be slow anyway. This 100 gibibyte rip is obviously designed for hard disk storage. < 1276959086 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.3ish gb dvd, single layer single sided < 1276959098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, play H.264 in Matroska, anyway. < 1276959122 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double sided is annoying, double layer doesn't work on some hardware < 1276959132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could fit the whole thing on two dual-layer Blu-Ray discs, or three or four one-sided discs. < 1276959135 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... well, yeah, but for distribution? < 1276959144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: That would be Illegal. :P < 1276959149 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1276959163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Although admittedly faster than downloading it. < 1276959183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :31 KiB/s download right now, but tons of peers; why?! It will take 4 days, apparently. I think I'll cancel it. And that's just the first season. < 1276959183 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would also be Illegal :-P < 1276959192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but less detectably so. < 1276959197 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1276959214 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:19:08 I just realised that if you watch "Caretaker", then "Endgame", you miss nothing except that Seven of Nine suddenly appears. < 1276959226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that Janeway gave up coffee < 1276959229 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not being a trekkie... explain? < 1276959246 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know it's voyager, and who the characters are < 1276959255 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the relevance of skipping, nor what's inbetween < 1276959256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caretaker and Endgame are the first and last episodes of Star Trek: Voyager, whose titular ship is also known as the "HMS Reset Button". < 1276959273 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.1 and 7.22 ? < 1276959283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's in-between is a lot of attempts to get home that inevitably fail because of the whole premise of the series, and also a whole lot of Captain Janeway being a bipolar sociopath. < 1276959298 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former i'd noted... the latter? < 1276959312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Switching between righteously and suicidally upholding Universal Principles, and sometimes just breaking every rule to an ultimately futile end.) < 1276959313 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HMS Reset Button"? < 1276959314 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276959323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But always making the most insane decision possible.) < 1276959336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: The attempts to get home always fail, and the characters are never developed. < 1276959343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The status quo is resumed at the end of every episode. < 1276959359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could very easily watch just the first and last episode and not be confused at all. < 1276959360 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the writers were applying discworld logic < 1276959447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they pretty much set themselves up for this with the premise. By definition, them getting home is the end of the series. < 1276959454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By definition, their main, overriding goal is to get home. < 1276959464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, every episode consists of them getting some hope that might let them get home, then being let down. < 1276959501 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did the characters not develop, though? < 1276959517 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, there was the relationship < 1276959526 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the doctor < 1276959543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, the Doctor developed slightly; a lot at the start, then once or twice later on. < 1276959550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the Doctor is not featured much in the final episode at all. < 1276959557 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1276959560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so him getting married and finally choosing a name might be a bit confusing, but you can extrapolate. < 1276959566 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what's that thing on his arm?" < 1276959582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And watching the first, say, four episodes would get rid of the name and marrying confusion as he quickly becomes more human. < 1276959588 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(portable hologram projector) < 1276959589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: I never said it'd be /completely/ understandable! :P < 1276959593 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1276959651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: does the relationship even come up in the finale? < 1276959662 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1276959668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe once it does < 1276960111 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you calculate if two webs are the same spider or not? Like when Archimedes has to figure out whether or not a gold crown contains silver, it is in this one also disallowed to ruin anything. < 1276960214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1276960231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out if zzo38 is serious or not < 1276960237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I guess you are < 1276960256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so I guess I would look at the pattern and see if they seem to be the same species? < 1276960288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well if density is relevant you could actually it in water without any issue since spider web does not dissolve in water < 1276960351 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK you can try that < 1276960417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, but spider web is so light I doubt the displacement would be measurable < 1276960431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, due to surface tension and such < 1276960449 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is what I thought < 1276960455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spider web would probably even float on the surface tension < 1276960477 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question as posed does not require the use of water. < 1276960489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, looking at the pattern would be a way more useful for finding out which type of spider < 1276960530 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but can you tell by visual inspection? If you have measuring devices can you tell? (I do mean you personally) < 1276960610 0 :Phantom_Hoover!5ce9ae75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.233.174.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276960616 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1276960630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no, I'm no expert, but experts could tell < 1276960658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitter.com/neiltyson/statuses/16547985471 < 1276960668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so I would ask an expert < 1276960733 0 :metcalf!~lentinj@88-96-169-74.dsl.zen.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1276960739 0 :metcalf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276960794 0 :metcalf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a zx spectrum to connect to irc! < 1276960830 0 :metcalf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :impomatic < 1276960993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, nice! < 1276961016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, didn't those have horrible keyboards? < 1276961121 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you ever noticed that the Lucas sequence contains the atomic numbers for Copper and Silver consecutively? The next number is three less than the atomic number for Gold. (I don't know if Hofstadter had any intention from this) < 1276961167 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276961241 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know ZX Spectrum has IRC? < 1276961349 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276961512 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276961770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Did you ever noticed that the Lucas sequence contains the atomic numbers for Copper and Silver consecutively? The next number is three less than the atomic number for Gold. (I don't know if Hofstadter had any intention from this) < 1276961775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Hofstadter was not inspired by that :P < 1276961852 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I didn't think he was. But after I noticed that, someone else told me he was. But I didn't believe that < 1276962460 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1276962481 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276962600 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1276962600 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1276962646 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276962691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, a number series contains elements of the periodic table? shocking! < 1276962829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there are primes that are the atomic numbers of some element < 1276963168 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276963212 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simplicity is the key! < 1276963455 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good day, gentlemen! < 1276963994 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1276964184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: indeed so. < 1276964504 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows 7's minesweeper just threw a stack overflow < 1276964543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they still using c or something :DS < 1276964590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes lol :DDDD < 1276964672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDD < 1276964678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are they like retarded huh < 1276964685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't they know i think it sucks < 1276965026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :la < 1276965026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lalala < 1276965370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lalalalala < 1276965579 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276965592 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276965604 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1276965884 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276965901 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1276966538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. < 1276966931 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1276967161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I should add some FAQ into my IRC. I already have the program and template and stuff for doing so (just type HELP FAQ to view the FAQ), but there is no entry yet. < 1276967321 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can add questions about the administration of this server, but I can also add question about the software being used, too. (If anyone has a question) < 1276967358 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any important questions about these things? < 1276967465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I didn't know ZX Spectrum has IRC? <-- well, I assume someone wrote something for it < 1276967484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I do wonder how he connects to the network? < 1276967492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/?// < 1276967538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably using some "modern" computer as a kind of "proxy" for the ethernet, connecting to that one using serial cable or whatever happens to be suitable < 1276967585 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. VERSION does say is client on ZX Spectrum computer, I tried < 1276967593 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... someone should build one of those wooden computers < 1276967602 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then program an esoteric operating system for it. :) < 1276967624 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What wooden computer? < 1276967624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, presumably the client was written recently, since unless I got the dates completely wrong IRC is way younger than ZX Spectrum < 1276967657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, do you mean something else than "boring wooden case mod" here? < 1276967665 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1276967680 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... I've seen a wooden adder on youtube < 1276967689 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you couldn't really program an OS for an adder though. :P < 1276967695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, wooden cogwheels and such? < 1276967703 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276967705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276967720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I seen a differential engine thingy in lego, let me find the link < 1276967727 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it added numbers represented in binary < 1276967743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it was a difference engine, not differential engine: http://acarol.woz.org/ < 1276967762 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, like "the" difference engine. polynomial subtraction < 1276967768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1276967770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah* < 1276967787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, doing it in wood is not much different than using metal or plastic really. It is still the same basic idea. < 1276967798 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1276967815 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esotericness is all that matters for an esoteric computer with an esoteric OS. :) < 1276967853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which boils down to cogwheels. And at least in the case of lego it also implies there will be at least one point where you are forced to cry out "Argh I have one too few of that!" < 1276967934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1276967943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know how in Logo every operation is of fixed arity, and so there are no parentheses? < 1276967948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying that there is no ldraw cad file for that difference engine in lego. < 1276967960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can actually do something quite like nice string concatenation in it, given flexible names. < 1276967970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let :: = two-argument string concatenation, ; = the empty string. < 1276967970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then < 1276967972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because that would mean I just just match it up against my parts inventory list!) < 1276967977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: "Hello, " :: name :: "!" ; < 1276967988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This extends to any binary operation with an identity element. < 1276967998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 1 + 2 + 3 +; < 1276968014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm fixed arity in the sense of "lacks varargs"? Or something more restrictive than that? < 1276968027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Every procedure has arity N for every call. < 1276968031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No variable arguments, no optional arguments. < 1276968038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right, does it have lists? < 1276968051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, you need no parentheses; upon encountering a word W, look up its arity A; then read A more values (possibly doing calls to other functions and thus reading additional values). < 1276968055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a dialect of Lisp. < 1276968055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yes. < 1276968091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, anyway, the only thing here is that "a OP b OP c" is modelled in fixed-arity prefix notation as "OP a OP b OP c ID", where OP is the two-argument implementaton, and ID is the identity element. < 1276968115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Giving OP a distinctive binary name like "+", and ID some sort of terminating marker on OP's name, produces expressions such as < 1276968120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 1 + 2 + 3 +; < 1276968140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 1 + length :: "Hello, " :: name :: "!" ::; + 3 +; < 1276968147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1276968153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then lacking varargs isn't much of an issue as long as the syntax to declare a list isn't too cumbersome. Something like printf could just be (schemeish syntax, don't know logo): (printf format-string list-with-arguments) < 1276968156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + length("Hello, " :: name :: "!") + 3 < 1276968172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Have you never used Logo, really? < 1276968180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where was your geeky childhood?! < 1276968180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nop, as I said I don't know the language < 1276968210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, a Logo procedure call is obviously just "f x y z". < 1276968226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeat 4 [forward 100 left 90] ; produces a square < 1276968233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is equivalent to the Lisp code: < 1276968237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, but you see what I'm suggesting anyway? < 1276968240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(repeat 4 '(forward 100 left 90)) < 1276968248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The list is evaluated, where it is interpreted as code equivalent to: < 1276968253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forward 100) (left 90) < 1276968253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang does it's io:format like that, since erlang doesn't have varargs either < 1276968256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And yes. < 1276968270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But if the list is quoted then it requires the use of EVAL and such. < 1276968281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm talking about a purist prefix fixed-arity system without any convenient list construction mechanisms. < 1276968312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, eval? I don't quite follow why < 1276968319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: [...] is list quoting < 1276968323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also say < 1276968326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print [Hello, world!] < 1276968332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's string quoting, not list quoting < 1276968332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276968334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean for printf < 1276968352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because if [+ 2 2, concat "Hello, " "world!"] is actually equal to < 1276968357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'((+ 2 2) (concat "Hello, " "world!")) < 1276968361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll end up printing a bunch of lists < 1276968363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes that was just an example of why varargs isn't needed very often as long as you have good list support < 1276968368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to (MAP EVAL ...) it < 1276968395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wait, is the list function itself is fixed arity too? < 1276968410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a function, it's syntax, by definition. < 1276968413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1276968417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a true fixed-arity system has no LIST function, only CONS and NIL. < 1276968431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why you might want (not really, but this is just a musing ffs!) a fake binary syntax. < 1276968433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right I see what you mean now < 1276968439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, ooh, you can make it even nicer. < 1276968455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[+( 1 + 2 + 3 )+] < 1276968468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let + = two-argument addition, [+( = +, )+] = 0. < 1276968473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tadaaa :P < 1276968482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276968531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that issue with ' "quoting all the way down" can easily be solved in scheme using the list function (or macro? I don't know). But I guess that is harder in logo due to the fixed arity.. < 1276968531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276968563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, QUOTE requires syntax to construct a variable-argument list already, i.e. (A B C D ...). < 1276968571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ' is syntax; QUOTE is the name of the special form. < 1276968603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you could of course compute those things first and then put them in the list < 1276968609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might be somewhat annoying < 1276968738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is there no way in logo to easily create a list without causing quoting of the elements? < 1276968755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I know of. It's mainly designed for kids drawing little pictures, dude. :P < 1276968764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276968792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case there seems to be no elegant solution to avoid the eval < 1276968807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not any I can think of < 1276968834 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you imagine if Babbage's Analytical machine caught on? < 1276968880 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Difference Engine is a pretty good novel about such an idea. Though some of the fictional technology is a little impractical in reality. < 1276968930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine _that_ it would. But since you are asking weather I could imagine _if_ it caught on I guess you mean imagining the consequences of it catching on? < 1276968983 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%f should let printf print a double, yeah? < 1276968992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: shut up < 1276968997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: I think so. < 1276969001 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I do mean the consequences. < 1276969018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, yes and float too, since printf in C is varargs it will use the "old" promotion rules for the type < 1276969022 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I agree it wouldn't have caught on. At least not to the degree of the modern computer. < 1276969026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning any float will be converted to a double < 1276969034 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to work out why my program is printing it as a float < 1276969049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, maybe you need to set precision and such. < 1276969054 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1276969063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check man page I can never remember the details of how you write that < 1276969069 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the resources required to create a useful Analytical engine are not worth the functionality < 1276969080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : f, F The double argument is rounded and converted to decimal notation < 1276969080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in the style [-]ddd.ddd, where the number of digits after the < 1276969080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : decimal-point character is equal to the precision specification. < 1276969080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If the precision is missing, it is taken as 6; if the precision < 1276969080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is explicitly zero, no decimal-point character appears. If a < 1276969080 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1276969080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : decimal point appears, at least one digit appears before it. < 1276969082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like %f instead of the normal < 1276969089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : g, G The double argument is converted in style f or e (or F or E for < 1276969089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : G conversions). The precision specifies the number of signifi‐ < 1276969089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cant digits. If the precision is missing, 6 digits are given; < 1276969089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if the precision is zero, it is treated as 1. Style e is used < 1276969090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if the exponent from its conversion is less than -4 or greater < 1276969092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : than or equal to the precision. Trailing zeros are removed from < 1276969093 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, it's quite remarkable. It's Turing complete before the concept was event invented. < 1276969094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the fractional part of the result; a decimal point appears only < 1276969096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if it is followed by at least one digit. < 1276969117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, iirc the precision stuff is on GNU/Linux systems further up in the man page < 1276969117 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i can man 3 printf myself, thanks :-) < 1276969127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%.5f < 1276969130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need to cross reference a lot < 1276969140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: remind me not to try and help in future; I certainly wouldn't have known to look for "g" < 1276969165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : than or equal to the precision. Trailing zeros are removed from < 1276969165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : though, it's quite remarkable. It's Turing complete before the concept was event invented. < 1276969176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it looked strange until I saw it wasn't alise XD < 1276969186 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ...my main objection was the length of the paste < 1276969199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was briefly wondering why printf() was TC there < 1276969205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Hey, it drowned out AnMaster. < 1276969232 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hahaha < 1276969242 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude printf is a non-deterministic turing machine < 1276969262 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to tell what g does... it prints in either standard or scientific notation, depending on where the significant digits are? < 1276969264 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent efficiency. It always determinizes to the correct state in one step. < 1276969270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly doubt the printf format string is actually TC < 1276969281 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC? < 1276969289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC = turing complete < 1276969297 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to get out more, honey < 1276969309 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1276969311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, you haven't been here long enough ;P < 1276969326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: calling people "honey" is incredibly irritating. < 1276969336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the analytical engine wasn't just Turing-complete, it *invented microcode* < 1276969338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I had to guess about the computational class of the printf format string it would be "FSA or less" < 1276969340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was to be a store (that is, a memory) capable of holding 1,000 numbers of 50 decimal digits each (ca. 20.7kB). An arithmetical unit (the "mill") would be able to perform all four arithmetic operations, plus comparisons and optionally square roots. Initially it was conceived as a difference engine curved back upon itself, in a generally circular layout,[3] with the long store exiting off to one side. (Later drawings depict a regularized grid layout.) < 1276969340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[4] Like the central processing unit (CPU) in a modern computer, the mill would rely upon its own internal procedures, to be stored in the form of pegs inserted into rotating drums called "barrels", to carry out some of the more complex instructions the user's program might specify.[5] (See microcode for the modern equivalent.) < 1276969350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is only a hypothesis < 1276969425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, printf always terminates too assuming there are no bugs in the implementation and that there is a trailing zero at the end of the format string and so on. < 1276969453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that would put an upper bound on the computational class... < 1276969478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh and of course there is the even weirder proof that reachability _is_ in NL < 1276969491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh wait that wasn't the weird proof < 1276969504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the weird proof was for showing NL = co-NL < 1276969512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, um, NL being? < 1276969520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you haven't been here long enough < 1276969525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nondeterministic logarithmic space < 1276969527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, touche < 1276969796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the family of languages such that there is a non-deterministic TM with separate input (read-only) and workspace tapes can confirm that a string is in the language < 1276969813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and co-NL are those where the TM can confirm if it isn't < 1276969819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1276969823 0 :Gregor-L!~Gregor@67-129-37-226.dia.static.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276969861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/ using workspace logarithmic in the input size/ < 1276969881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that can < 1276969884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, doesn't the very word "input" imply that it isn't available for writing to? < 1276969914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sort of, except the simplest TM's use the same tape for input, workspace and output < 1276969937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah right, you meant like that. < 1276969989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is meaningless when you want to check if an algorithm uses less than linear space < 1276969992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course C does have writable input, in some sense. See man ungetc < 1276970022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well in the ungetc sense, so do these TMs actually, you can still move back and forth < 1276970033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not change the contents < 1276970051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, so reading input does not make it unavailable for reading again? < 1276970055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1276970059 0 :purr!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :elliottcable < 1276970061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also iirc with ungetc you can push another char back < 1276970066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276970121 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i thought it was only 1 < 1276970122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't think doing is is undef behaviour either. < 1276970144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logarithmic space is sort of the bottom of when it's meaningless to use even _this_ model, since the tape position itself is intuitively a logarithmic size pointer < 1276970152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*meaningful < 1276970164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, one char to push back? My man page says "only one pushback is guaranteed" which I interpret as "more may work, but don't depend on it working" < 1276970181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so more /are/ undef. < 1276970209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I haven't checked the C spec, after all the man page is not the spec. < 1276970281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well _one_ ungetc can be simulated by a TM easily, just absorb it into the TM state < 1276970307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it seems fsetpos, fseek and various other functions discards the result of ungetc according to the C spec < 1276970310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there are only finitely many possibilities < 1276970334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DLOGTIME < 1276970334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1276970358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I wouldn't be surprised if for many C implementations the ungeted char is stored in some place in the FILE structure < 1276970430 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: my interpretation is that the second pushback working is undefined < 1276970434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, the C spec says "at least one", and in case of "too many" pushbacks, ungetc shall fail. < 1276970445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to locate where it says how ungetc shall fail < 1276970451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh by returning EOF it seems < 1276970476 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to make a wrapper function if you need more than 1 < 1276970501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, actually more than one is allowed but either implementation defined or undefined. Not clear to me which < 1276970516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably undef indeed < 1276970612 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was implementation specific, it became so in c99, i guess < 1276970625 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k&r makes no mention of it being remotely possible < 1276970667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh yeah what _is_ that DLOGTIME, i've seen it mentioned but it sounds nonsensicale with a TM - you couldn't even get to all input < 1276970673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-e < 1276970681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DLOGTIME is the complexity class of all computational problems solvable in a logarithmic amount of computation time on a deterministic Turing machine. It is the smallest nontrivial class using the resource of deterministic time.[citation needed] It must be defined on a random-access Turing machine, since otherwise the machine does not have time to read the entire input tape. < 1276970681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DLOGTIME-uniformity is important in circuit complexity. < 1276970681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem of testing the length of the input string can be solved in DLOGTIME, by binary searching for possible input sizes. < 1276970686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just decided to quote the lowest class on Wikipedia. < 1276970694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1276970695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be defined on a random-access Turing machine, since otherwise the machine does not have time to read the entire input tape. < 1276970714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i've not seen the definition of random-access TMs < 1276970761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw the mention in relation of circuit complexity too < 1276970763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor I; the link is broken. < 1276970773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there is some instruction that sets the pointer to cell i, given i in the current tape cell. < 1276970774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to < 1276970787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite complexity class is co-ALL < 1276970794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: except that would require unbounded cell values < 1276970816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh it seems that when a file is opened rw in C you can't just do a read operation after a write (or vice verse). The spec says you have to fflush/fseek/fsetpos/rewind (w→r) in between. For r→w you have to use one of fseek/fsetpos/rewind in between unless the last read hit the end of the file < 1276970817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok then it just has an infinite set of instructions go-i for i \in N < 1276970832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1276970834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many apps actually do that properly. < 1276970843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm doubtful :D < 1276970871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm POSIX seems to retain this restriction < 1276970928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hm maybe you could have pointer tapes that you can fill in with the positions you want to jump to < 1276970937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is an ALL-complete problem." --"Almanac de Compleiçties, Editioné de 3712", on the Awful Problem. < 1276970940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should work < 1276970970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw you said static linking results in smaller binaries? This is true with uclibc but not with glibc. Test: hello world using write() and _exit(). < 1276970973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3712 is the year of publication.) < 1276970974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this shows that glibc sucks < 1276970978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course it's not true with glibc :P < 1276971001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you only need finitely many such tapes, since you don't have time to fill in more than that anyway :D < 1276971004 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276971023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah but with glibc it was like 7 KB (dynamic) 654 KB (static), with uclibc it was about the same for dynamic but only 6.3 KB for static < 1276971036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 654 kibibytes for write() and _exit(). < 1276971042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nop < 1276971052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was from the startup file pulling in lots of stuff < 1276971056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ulrich Drepper's engineering has never been witnessed in any other human being. The rest of the human race is thankful for this. < 1276971057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, the code running before main() < 1276971063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ulrich Drepper's engineering skill has never been witnessed in any other human being. The rest of the human race is thankful for this. < 1276971082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, with uclibc it still pulled in abort() for some strange reason but not much else extra < 1276971089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while with glibc I even had strstr there < 1276971092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of why < 1276971111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is according to nm on the static binaries (before stripping of course) < 1276971149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course, uclibc provides it's own startup file. Had to use that anyway or linking would fail. < 1276971149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is uclibc any good on non-embedded platforms? < 1276971173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't really know < 1276971211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge does link against it I know if you enable C99 math functions (some fingerprints need long double trig functions) < 1276971248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but iirc it does lack some other stuff, and some things might just be stubs returning some error code < 1276971279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The landscape of non-glibc C standard libraries is dire. < 1276971287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dietlibc is wonderful but the license ruins it. < 1276971290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well there is newlib, and *bsd have their own stuff < 1276971313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc newlib has some fatal flaw for desktop use but I don't recall. Maybe it's fine, but still, it's a bit naff you have to admit. < 1276971319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The *BSD libraries wouldn't work on Linux. < 1276971330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is newlib naff? < 1276971344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall; I just remember looking at it and coming to the strong conclusion that it was a bit naff. < 1276971348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1276971360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Arklinux_installer.png <-- Linux for Retards < 1276971372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276971378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how you're then expected to figure out how to work a dropdown menu < 1276971383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is /considerably/ less intuitive. < 1276971391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if it has a scroll bar. < 1276971418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? all those are drop downs? So in theory once you figured out the first... < 1276971451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It provides instructions on how to open the drop down menu, but not how to then use it. < 1276971458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this of course means it excludes the _complete_ retards who don't see any connection between them < 1276971462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh XD < 1276971464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The former is considerably easier to figure out than the latter, especially if the drop-down includes a scrollbar. < 1276971482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the instructions change once you click. Ew. < 1276971491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1276971570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, my ideal Linux libc is diet libc licensed with ANYTHING BUT GPL. < 1276971573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, without this: < 1276971574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q: When linking binaries, I get warnings about stdio and printf all the < 1276971574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : time. What gives? < 1276971574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: Since the diet libc was written to make writing small programs < 1276971574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : possible, it also tries to assist in the process of seeing causes of < 1276971574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bloat. Premier causes for bloat are stdio and the printf family of < 1276971575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : functions. The diet libc will also warn you if you still use < 1276971577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assert() (which is normally not enabled in production code) or if you < 1276971579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : use functions that use static buffers (like gethostbyname and < 1276971581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : friends). < 1276971600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually all this just makes me want to do the ludicrous thing of writing my own libc. < 1276971650 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h109.47.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276971668 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276971733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't have nearly the right knowledge to do so. < 1276971817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: have you ever used Unix, First Edition? < 1276972008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The code of UNIX is divided into 1 files, named u0 through u9 and ux." < 1276972019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : could you imagine if Babbage's Analytical machine caught on? < 1276972029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares about organisation! < 1276972036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe alternative history scifi has been written about this < 1276972039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're written in order of linking and "coreness". :) < 1276972042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, as he says in a line or so < 1276972045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/believe/know/, really < 1276972062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting thing: First Edition Unix was entirely PDP assembly, no C. < 1276972063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1276972089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why duh? < 1276972091 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, which one was the one that was actually programmable? < 1276972104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: analytical < 1276972151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is actually three years older than UNIX. < 1276972164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One year older than the First Edition publication. < 1276972196 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has trouble parsing alise's order of events < 1276972200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took until 1973 for UNIX to include a C compiler; until late 1973 to rewrite it in C. < 1276972202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: *d'oh, perhaps < 1276972205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Here we go: < 1276972262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1969 - UNIX is created < 1276972263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1971 - 1st Edition UNIX published < 1276972263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1972 - C created < 1276972263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1972 - 2nd Edition UNIX published < 1276972263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feb. 1973 - 3rd Edition UNIX published; includes C compiler < 1276972263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nov. 1973 - 4th Edition UNIX published; rewritten in C < 1276972289 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that make C older than UNIX and 1st Edition? < 1276972297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1276972304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*UNIX is actually three years older than C. < 1276972370 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION says a word that Teal'c often says < 1276972597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... anyone want to help me assemble my ridiculous linux distribution? :P < 1276972733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but i can help ridicule it < 1276972739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs away < 1276972819 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a Creatures-oriented distro < 1276972828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no. < 1276972830 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THe world needs more themed Ubuntu distros! < 1276972833 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1276972848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will maul you all if you do not do as I say! :| < 1276972852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: have you ever used Unix, First Edition? <-- no < 1276972860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what emulators are available for this? < 1276972874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "The code of UNIX is divided into 1 files, named u0 through u9 and ux." <-- also that seems like issues with counting XD < 1276972886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: more than just an emulator -- you need a bunch of crazy people who scanned a printout then OCR'd it and fixed up all the issues! (or perhaps even manually typed it) < 1276972892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ux is some auxiliary system tables or something < 1276972896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ < 1276972905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use Simh, like with later Unix editions. < 1276972910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ < 1276972912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*SIMH < 1276972925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emulates a PDP-11 running 1st Edition UNIX; glorious. < 1276972928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some day, not today though < 1276972939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. Type in an ls -l command. You should see something like this: < 1276972939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : total 6 < 1276972939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 43 sdrwr- 2 root 620 Jan 1 00:00:00 bin < 1276972939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 42 sdrwr- 2 root 250 Jan 1 00:00:00 dev < 1276972939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 104 sdrwr- 2 root 110 Jan 1 00:00:00 etc < 1276972939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 114 sdrwr- 2 root 50 Jan 1 00:00:00 tmp < 1276972941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 41 sdrwr- 7 root 70 Jan 1 00:00:00 usr < 1276972942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a bit preocupied, thus the late reply < 1276972943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. To change directories, use chdir, e.g. chdir /usr. The only editor installed < 1276972945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is `ed'. You can find an ed tutorial in notes/edtut.txt. < 1276972947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5. To log in multiple times, telnet to localhost port 5555. The system < 1276972949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is configured to allow 8 remote logins. < 1276972951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pages/ - OCR'd pages from the PreliminaryUnixImplementation document < 1276972953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebuilt/ - kernel source rebuilt from the OCR'd pages, as asm files < 1276972955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed ocr < 1276972957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patches/ - patches to rebuilt/ files to get kernel to run < 1276972959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*g* < 1276973071 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stargate Atlantis is on YouTube < 1276973085 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Possibly not 100% legally, but I don't feel like asking questions] < 1276973209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. Debian have switched to EGLIBC for real. < 1276973312 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1276973376 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't there some core component that was being managed by someone who's a bit of a prick? Actually, libc I think, so I guess that's relevant < 1276973389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drepper runs glibc. < 1276973399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he's not a bit of a prick, he's an all-out asshole. < 1276973407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The switch to eglibc was mostly because of Drepper. < 1276973761 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h55.58.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276973785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody wants to help :( :P < 1276973806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.aurel32.net/wp-content/sam_keyboard.jpeg < 1276973810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very efficient keyboard layout. < 1276973814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Actually he explained me he tried to convert the QWERTY keyboard into a DVORAK one, but some of the keys can not be swapped because of the trackpoint. And he is using it as a QWERTY keyboard." < 1276974097 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276974145 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h64.23.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276974155 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the novel Perdido Street Station, by British author China Miéville, analytical engines similar to Babbage's serve as "brains" for the robotic constructs of the city of New Crobuzon. One such engine even develops sentient thought due to a recursive algorithmic loop. < 1276974159 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. < 1276974172 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been writing sentient AI all these years and didn't even know it. < 1276974287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define (omega) (omega)) < 1276974290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singularity; thank me later, guys. < 1276974469 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be crazy if the Analytical Engine had a mechanism for memory addresses. < 1276974600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does that mean the next ubuntu version will use eglibc? < 1276974607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember what the differences were < 1276974618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did eglibc merge changes from upstream? I forgot < 1276974629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it already does use eglibc, then. < 1276974636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it does < 1276974654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, just checked too < 1276974679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how did it differ, I don't remember. Something about ARM support was it? Was there anything else than that? < 1276974720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276975096 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.123.217 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276976087 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1276976437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi coppro < 1276976452 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276976458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Under Canadian broadcast regulations, product placement is considered a form of payola and is strictly forbidden. Real brand names can't be shown on locally-produced TV shows. Dramas, comedies, and even cooking and home improvement shows have to block out the brand names of the items they use or replace them with Brand X. < 1276976463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is up with that, Token Canadian? < 1276976499 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Welcome to the CRTC < 1276976504 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please check your sanity at the door < 1276976513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is your new name, by the way - Token Canadian. < 1276976533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: personally I'd take the WHATWG's advice and leave it at the door, in case it would be damaged inside. < 1276976694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I like that Canadian law in a way. < 1276976711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it's crazy < 1276976730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :banning paid product placement is good. < 1276976731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refreshing break from the constant focus on consumerism < 1276976741 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :banning inadvertent product placement is bad < 1276976751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know it's not? < 1276976751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well okay, you have a point there < 1276976761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes: the government should create laws to ban anything that has a consumerist bent. < 1276976771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errrr < 1276976771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that's the tricky bit < 1276976779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea. How sane. Let's let the government legislate us a happy life. < 1276976781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was asking about the keyboard :D < 1276976791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see what it looked like i was asking... < 1276976796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot i'd scrolled up < 1276976797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, strawman < 1276976814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a strawman. < 1276976826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[This censorship law is good because it is a] refreshing break from the constant focus on consumerism[.]" < 1276976843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., the government is doing good by legislating a refreshing break from the constant focus on consumerism. < 1276976846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, would you agree with what coppro said though? < 1276976854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., what I said. < 1276976874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inadvertent product placement should definitely be legal. < 1276976885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paid product placement I'm not sure about. I think it's fine, to be honest. < 1276976897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like there aren't other, better ways to advertise your product. < 1276976903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Product placement is usually very blatant anyway. < 1276976904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think paid product placement should be banned, but inadvertent might be okay < 1276976931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these questions don't have answers < 1276976935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should paid product placement be banned? < 1276976936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up < 1276976967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DSDFD < 1276977014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because to most people it doesn't seem blatant. Rather it is a sneaky way in many cases. Which people might not realise is product placement. I'm not talking about people of #esoteric here but "your average man on the street" rather. < 1276977031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either product placement is blatant or it goes unnoticed. < 1276977045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody says "Oh, I really want to buy this brand name product because I saw it in this TV show without realising it!" < 1276977063 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people don't look at brands < 1276977066 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one cares about brands < 1276977068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, you can't really mandate away stupid people. < 1276977070 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you look at the product < 1276977090 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1276977096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed. It goes like "hm, I need a such as such, which of the brands on this shelf in the supermarket should I select? Hm I seen that one a lot, not sure where, meh I'll take that one." < 1276977105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is angry and wants to fight < 1276977110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRRR < 1276977113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, no it doesn't go like that. < 1276977114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not really angry < 1276977124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am pretty sure you just made that up to support your viewpoint and have no actual evidence of it happening. < 1276977150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah people often have evidence of things < 1276977158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: actually i've vaguely read something like what AnMaster said < 1276977183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! let's talk about complexity theory k? < 1276977188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: k! < 1276977188 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i don't really wanna < 1276977191 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually wanna sleep < 1276977192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no I didn't make it up, I heard it from someone who works as a teacher (at university level). Teacher for future journalists and such. < 1276977194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1276977195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can't < 1276977206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, a teacher of journalists. I am now convinced... < 1276977214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, ads stuff is in that area < 1276977227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol university people are idiots < 1276977271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also see what oerjan said < 1276977285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm inclined to side with AnMaster < 1276977287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, rather, I suggest you back up your claims. < 1276977289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are open to subtle influences < 1276977326 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hearing about or seeing a brand a lot increases recognition, which increases chances people will buy it. There is definitely a 'I will buy the one I feel most familiar with' effect < 1276977412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well? < 1276977464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Considering oerjan's memory is notoriously unreliable, and I don't believe some random person any more than you, I shall ignore his message. < 1276977471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And YOU were the one who made the claim. < 1276977477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please look up "null hypothesis", "burden of proof". < 1276977478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and what about what coppro? < 1276977488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you made the claim it wasn't so < 1276977501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i actually just remembered i've read a book called "people see people buy" that says exactly what AnMaster, oerjan and coppro are saying < 1276977514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted to debate this, I'd debate it with coppro who isn't a raging fucking idiot. < 1276977515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've actually conducted 7 studies on this < 1276977518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think the burden of proof is shifting to you now < 1276977528 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a allism-afflicted individual, it definitely affects me and I'm conscious of it. < 1276977537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My claim is exactly the same as before: none. You are the one making the claim. Shut the fuck up. < 1276977559 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your claim is that our claim is false < 1276977582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1276977593 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's claiming there's no reason to claim it, not that he knows it's false < 1276977597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do you say to atheists, "you made the claim that it [religion] wasn't so; the burden of proof is shifting to you now [since you have argued a lot]"? < 1276977619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I refer you to coppro's last line. < 1276977621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do, well, you're even more of an idiot than previously suspected (probable); if not, the same applies here. < 1276977625 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" AnMaster: No, no it doesn't go like that." < 1276977628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: if you prefer to be delusional... then be so < 1276977629 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually maybe she did < 1276977633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what? < 1276977637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just randomly claimed me to be delusional there. < 1276977657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I did provide source, you did not accept it. *shrug* < 1276977679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not going to bother about this. < 1276977681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talking to you may be a corridor starting at happiness and ending in facepalm napalm, but inside, it is filled with despairing hilarity. < 1276977695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am currently half-way, and I cut through the floor. < 1276977696 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any credible theology debate, the atheists do in fact debate the religious' point of view. They don't say 'but you're wrong' and just leave it at that. < 1276977699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye. < 1276977702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, argue with coppro or something < 1276977709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't want to argue the point. < 1276977713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made an offhand remark. < 1276977726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have turned it into an enlightening lesson in illogic. < 1276977734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not sure who it's enlightening for. < 1276977749 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1276977788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I really did want to debate the point, do you really think I'm stupid enough to debate it with you? < 1276977798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting debates in here are usually had with ais523 or coppro; never with you. < 1276977846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since I can't help being sucked up into this idiocy: your "source" was an unnamed person who teaches journalists. < 1276977859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not any sort of study on people's buying habits, that's just some random unnamed person who happens to teach at university. < 1276977922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, however the other persons in here did provide other sources. < 1276977928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also see what coppro said above: < 1276977930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In any credible theology debate, the atheists do in fact debate the religious' point of view. They don't say 'but you're wrong' and just leave it at that. < 1276977943 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record; I did not provide any sources, merely asserted a point and added personal experience to it. < 1276977990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, I'm going elsewhere, not going to continue discussing this. Watching paint dry is more productive. (Not that I will do that.) < 1276978018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Are you talking to AnMaster or me? < 1276978024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If me, my argument is solely with AnMaster. < 1276978033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that were I to debate it with you it would be a lot more of a cogent affair. < 1276978172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back for a bit. < 1276978216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather a lifetime of being provided outright, irrefutable rebuttals of everything I believe by ais523, oerjan and coppro than one second debating with AnMaster. < 1276978227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I could look up sources, but why should I? I see no point, I know I'm right anyway, I don't have to "win" the argument. *shrug* < 1276978246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could easily check this yourself < 1276978254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P.S. You're crazy. < 1276978255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Love, < 1276978256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1276978260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you completely ignored the line of coppro I quoted above < 1276978264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_completely_ < 1276978277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay! < 1276978318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: tbh, you're acting really weird today < 1276978334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go, no more annoyance from that source. < 1276978338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Howso? < 1276978342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Finally. < 1276978358 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're trolling him < 1276978361 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or were < 1276978388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What do I say to AnMaster that isn't trolling? Like, ever? < 1276978414 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I am not going back into the logs to look < 1276978425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So how is that really weird? < 1276978431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'm acting significantly abnormally. < 1276978468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's uncharacteristic of you to argue ad hominem < 1276978493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember saying he was an idiot, but I don't remember there being any actual "argument" to speak of. < 1276978510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276978512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More a meta-argument about whether AnMaster's attempted "argument" was valid or not. < 1276978740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But I don't particularly take any discussion involving AnMaster seriously. < 1276978760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe you could easily see, by examining logs, that I'm usually a lot more civil and logical when talking to others (not the same thing as civil and logical, though :P). < 1276978782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's mostly because I've stopped bothering trying to convince AnMaster of anything; anything I say to him is out of mere exasperation. < 1276978962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if anyone ever convinces anyone of anything ever < 1276978963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever < 1276978966 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on irc < 1276978978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro has had the odd effect of making me more moderate sometimes. < 1276978984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never all the way to the other side, though. :-) < 1276978999 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well isn't coppro some sort of politician < 1276978999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done the opposite too < 1276979010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me? < 1276979011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When? < 1276979026 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have a big argument-turned-flamewar shortly after I discovered this place < 1276979029 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I've started dabbling in it inadvertently < 1276979051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Was that the one that ended up in both of us addressing large, overwrought insults to each other? < 1276979058 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1276979065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that basically boiled down to "You're childish!" "Yeah, well, so are you.") < 1276979067 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276979074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually remember what it was about, though. :P < 1276979077 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither < 1276979111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that on IP? I remember we had a civil argument about that too, but I'm not sure if that was the only one < 1276979115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(arrrr) < 1276979158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP? < 1276979163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276979165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intellectual property < 1276979169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't believe it was < 1276979184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC we've only had two arguments about that, the huge one and one offhand one quite recently. < 1276979233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276979292 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I'm now disappointed I didn't find out about and join the PPCA earlier, because (unsurprisingly) I'm relatively moderate among members when it comes to my views < 1276979302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with regards to IP, anyway) < 1276979345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike the Pirate Party because they basically backed down on what a party with that name should be like; they want five-year commercial copyright iirc. < 1276979356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was it indefinite commercial copyright, 5-year noncommercial copyright? < 1276979374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have most definitely toned down their rhetoric to become more accepted < 1276979415 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the PPCA (which, while affiliated with international Pirate Parties, is not the same as them) is voting today on whether the platform is 10 years copyright, or 5 years + 10 years if registered < 1276979443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's worse than Sophie's choice!!!!!! < 1276979471 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I think there's a thing about the name < 1276979493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally if I had to pick an option without using numbers not already there, I'd pick 5 years copyright. < 1276979494 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the PPCA at least, pirate != trying to steal music < 1276979502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Registering copyright. Pfft. < 1276979503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I know that. < 1276979511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Piratbyrån, etc. < 1276979527 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about the international ones, to be honest < 1276979530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Piratbyrån, for instance, are quite thoroughly anti-copyright, and the Pirate Party is an offshoot; they have diluted the name. < 1276979540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The Pirate Party is not the original pirate organisation, FFS. < 1276979543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Piratbyrån is not a political party. < 1276979552 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276979559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Piratbyrån ("The Pirate Bureau") is a Swedish organization (or think tank) established to support people opposed to current ideas about intellectual property — by freely sharing information and culture. Piratbyrån wishes to give another point of view about spreading information as opposed to certain lobby groups. < 1276979560 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1276979569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1276979575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Pirate Bay is not affiliated with Piratbyrån but stemmed from it; same for the Pirate Party. < 1276979605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Pirate Bay diluted the Piratbyrån's message by making it about yarr copyright infringement; so has the Pirate Party, by making it about moderate copyright reform. < 1276979610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in the PPCA at least, pirate != trying to steal music < 1276979614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't say "steal". < 1276979624 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I meant < 1276979637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no accurate term for it < 1276979651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copyright infringement. < 1276979675 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is it's not even that sometimes < 1276979726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION spits on the Pirate Bay trial < 1276979729 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it's just odd to be in a situation where, in a group of people, I'm one of the strongest /defenders/ of copyright < 1276979737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(relative to others) < 1276979777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One day, Lord help me, I will smash the copyright out of your mind. < 1276979778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One day! < 1276979824 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I think they'll pick the 10-year option, and I'll stick behind it in principle; I just want to make sure we don't do something stupid < 1276979880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in a hypothetical post-capitalist society, would you support copyright? < 1276979907 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define post-capitalist < 1276979945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that would make the answer too easy. < 1276979952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let me rephrase. < 1276979958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In a hypothetical post-scarcity and thus post-capitalist society, would you support copyright? < 1276979987 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would support moral rights but not economic ones < 1276980045 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :economic copyright is a crutch, to be sure, but I think it's one that is necessary to an extent < 1276980053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moral rights, define. < 1276980127 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h23.62.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276980187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make the question too easy < 1276980190 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1276980192 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait that doesn't make sense < 1276980196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sense of symmetry fails me < 1276980217 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276980277 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: rights such as right to anonymity, pseudonymity, or having one's name associated with the work. < 1276980294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right to anonymity? Like, right not to be whistleblown? Pretty sure that doesn't exist in practice. < 1276980300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whistleblown as to your identity) < 1276980330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Okay, now imagine a post-ego society. All individuals in the society have no desire for egotistic rewards. < 1276980337 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No, it's the right to not have your name associated with the published work < 1276980340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, they have no desire to be credited from an it-makes-me-happy point of view. < 1276980347 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone can break the anonymity < 1276980351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you still support the right to have one's name associated with a work? < 1276980353 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the work can't carry the name if you don't want it < 1276980382 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no such world would exist < 1276980436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I have presupposed it so. I never said the inhabitants were stock homo sapiens sapiens units. < 1276980443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, your answer? < 1276980449 0 :waga!5c564c96@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.86.76.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276980452 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276980471 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION found a dead dolphin on the beach < 1276980474 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1276980477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1276980478 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1276980481 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sad < 1276980486 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1276980488 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1276980496 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd still support the right. If the individuals have no desire for egotistic rewards, then as a matter of societal convention, they may choose not to invoke the right. < 1276980497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you give it one last hug and throw it back in the ocean < 1276980527 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was almost eaten by crabs and flys < 1276980536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Why have a right that, by definition, nobody has any desire for, and never will? < 1276980596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If it was physically impossible for the desire to invoke it to exist, then the existence of the right is an academic question. If there exists any possibility of its use, though, I would support it. < 1276980668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: We are to assume that nobody in this society would ever have any desire to have their name attributed to a work. < 1276980685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, they might do it, but only for some academic purpose or on a whim, and they would care not one bit if someone removed the attribution. < 1276980690 0 :augur!~augur@pool-108-56-52-39.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276980699 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uploads some photos of the dolphin so that you can see < 1276980705 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, as I said, the question is academic < 1276980713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It is academic: so answer it. < 1276980756 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? It's irrelevant in that society if that right does or doesn't exist < 1276980792 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bayimg.com/JANoAaacD < 1276980793 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like asking if men should have the right to abortion. < 1276980799 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is the photo < 1276980807 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it is < 1276980818 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will add a bigger photo < 1276980820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay maybe a bit < 1276980820 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1276980825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol no waga < 1276980832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was talking to c < 1276980836 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276980878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga: that doesn't look very sad, because it just looks like a big lump to me. < 1276980886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't really make out the dolphin < 1276980891 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1276980908 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't many dolphoins left in the black sea < 1276980928 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very polluted and heavilly fishinged < 1276980941 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bayimg.com/jAnODaAcD < 1276980956 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its great even to see fish in it. < 1276980970 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once saw 2 dolphins in bulgaria < 1276980974 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but none in romania < 1276980977 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only this one < 1276981013 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I send an email to an organization < 1276981020 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it would help... < 1276981030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F SEV - BLA < 1276981050 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1276981071 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1276981081 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.7833 \ wunderbar_emporium < 1276981086 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would help how? < 1276981094 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help reanimate that dolphin? < 1276981098 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1276981113 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just kill fishermen < 1276981113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why? It's irrelevant in that society if that right does or doesn't exist < 1276981120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's relevant to me, now, what your position is. < 1276981125 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1276981131 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cd / < 1276981132 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: please stop trying to convince me to break your strawman < 1276981132 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no position with regards to your questions < 1276981147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*question < 1276981157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It was going to track backwards to make a point, but if you won't play, fine. < 1276981158 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm -r * < 1276981159 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophers must hate talking to you. < 1276981164 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm * < 1276981166 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga: Won't work, don't bother. < 1276981169 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1276981173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga: do you kill fishermen? < 1276981173 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just courious < 1276981174 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what point would that have been? < 1276981176 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1276981179 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i would < 1276981182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no you'll never know < 1276981184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*now < 1276981187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It wouldn't make sense without your answer. < 1276981195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, my answer wouldn't make sense either way < 1276981199 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -v < 1276981200 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 40 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ < 1276981209 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`man perl < 1276981210 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981211 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I say yes, then I've just supported something pointless. If I say no, I've just weakened my position < 1276981215 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`man cd < 1276981216 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981221 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`man man < 1276981222 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Sheesh, I give up. < 1276981236 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`gcc < 1276981239 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981262 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`touch qw.pl < 1276981263 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981308 0 :Gregor-L!~Gregor@67-129-37-226.dia.static.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276981310 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276981312 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo print "hello"; > qw.pl < 1276981313 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "hello"; > qw.pl < 1276981325 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1276981331 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl qw.pl < 1276981333 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981371 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sudo < 1276981372 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276981393 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat cube2.jpg < 1276981394 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1276981422 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz < 1276981423 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1276981461 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cameroon 1 - Denmark 2 < 1276981463 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1276981526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caring points: Football fans 1 - Everyone else 0 < 1276981858 0 :waga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1276981868 0 :waga_!5c564c96@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.86.76.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276981870 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276981878 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1276981885 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my battery died < 1276981942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh nobody wants to help my clearly perfect distro efforts :) < 1276982036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me when you have a package manager < 1276982058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: *configuration manager < 1276982064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my plans are rather ridiculously generic in that area < 1276982068 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, tell me when you have one of those then < 1276982079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right now my current focus is seeing how far I can push using a non-standard libc and static compilation < 1276982094 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair < 1276982104 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should use clang by default too! < 1276982109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I am considering that. < 1276982125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I am also considering http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/. < 1276982184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I will probably use newlib or uclibc, but I'd rather use diet libc; unfortunately, its GPL license makes this illegal. < 1276982321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Basically, the idea is to make a completely unconventional distro that lets you forget that Linux is underneath and just maintain the system as simply as possible; allowing one to use minimalist stuff in place of the usual rubbish. And also one that I can maintain myself without too much trouble, distro-wise. < 1276982341 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be cool < 1276982345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So extremely simple init system (perhaps even just a shell script), "package manager" replaced by a more generic concept allowing finer-grained control over configuration and the like, < 1276982360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tiny libc, everything that can be statically linked is, < 1276982396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kernel uses Brain Fuck Scheduler, TuxOnIce and is stripped of most everything; module support provided as a separate kernel package only for using things like the nvidia drivers < 1276982430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like hal wiped out; hopefully udev made less futzy < 1276982445 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus points if you can invent some sort of dynamostatic linking that gets the space savings of dynamic linking without the rest of its idiocies < 1276982447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coreutils are bsd or other similar minimalist set, not gnu < 1276982469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ah, but static linking is only larger with a gigantically bloated libc like glibc. < 1276982479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With uclibc or newlib, the binaries are smaller than dynamically-linked glibc binaries. < 1276982494 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's why I said 'without the idiocies' < 1276982511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is definitely redundant code that can be elimintaed < 1276982511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Sure, a program that uses many functions from a large library will be bigger... but these aren't so common, and besides, you probably have the disk space if you're using such a "bloated" program ;) < 1276982517 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1276982531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO dynamic linking just causes too much problems in this language-agnostic Linux world. < 1276982538 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1276982540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Static linking leaves some duplication on disk -- there are tactics to share the code in memory -- < 1276982552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's imperfect, but so is Linux in almost every way! < 1276982562 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you guys here those who have done the cool esoteric langs from wikipedia/eso langs wiki? (eg: unlambda,thue,3code,lolcode,the cooking one, taxi, brainfuck, etc) < 1276982564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the focus of the distribution is basically to make linux usable without going insane. < 1276982573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: Yes; we're the official IRC channel of http://esolangs.org/. < 1276982582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for lolcode. < 1276982586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We hate lolcode intensely. < 1276982607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urban Muller, creator of brainfuck, is not present here; but daniel b cristofani, brainfuck programmer extraordinaire, is (dbc). < 1276982607 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1276982626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: it's not esoteric, it's just a hodge-podge language designed by people who don't know languages, with a slight veneer of stupid memey syntax. < 1276982628 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wierd name, "Urban" < 1276982643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wierd is an esoteric language, but not a word; you're thinking of "weird". < 1276982657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he's Swiss. < 1276982669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually Urban Müller. < 1276982680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: Ever heard of Aminet, that Amiga archive? < 1276982683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He created that. < 1276982686 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1276982687 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wierd < 1276982714 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is that there are more langs then users < 1276982715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: *weird. < 1276982719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's amusing. < 1276982727 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it means everyone made about 20 langs < 1276982737 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :°^° < 1276982746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I guess you could categorise my distribution as "no Stallman, no Drepper" and I guess you'd be right but it's more about the technology than the people. < 1276982768 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no objections < 1276982814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically I want a can-it-even-be-called-Linux distribution that you can almost entirely fit into your head; any problem should have an obvious source because there can be only one, and there should not be a ton of stuff going on in the background, breaking subtly, that you don't know about. < 1276982822 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many langs have you made? < 1276982832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm all for wonderful systems with layers of abstraction and purity and automagic, but the fact is that automagic Linux, in practice, today, is broken Linux. < 1276982838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And bloated Linux to boot. < 1276982841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: I've made about 4. < 1276982845 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wpw < 1276982847 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1276982868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Although I might have to allow the dynamic linker to be *present*; otherwise, you can't run such programs as, say, Perl. < 1276982873 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also, how many os-es have you made? (or started) < 1276982874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, you know, not ideal. < 1276982885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: Weeeeeeeeeell. < 1276982887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Isn't the dynamic linker stored in the program? < 1276982890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a tiny little broken kernel once, but that barely booted. < 1276982901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have my long-term, life-encompassing mega OS, but that's vaporware in the strongest sense. < 1276982906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the only real OS I'm doing is this distro. < 1276982914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ...*head explodes* < 1276982921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Wait, were you being serious or making a static linking joke? < 1276982922 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1276982922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed the latter. < 1276982926 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my os is bacterix < 1276982940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: Can you remove it with antibiotix? < 1276982941 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports some basic dos ints < 1276982946 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1276982954 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just bacterix < 1276982955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a resistant strain, then. < 1276982956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: both, sort of. I know some of the processing is actually stored in the ELF, but there is, of course, ld.so < 1276982962 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports fat12 < 1276982964 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :°° < 1276982971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, yeah, did I mention I was seeing if I could get rid of ELF? < 1276982973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... I'm crazy. < 1276982980 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glwt < 1276982984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There done ain't be nothin' wrong with a.out! < 1276982990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: glwt?? WHAT CAN THIS MEAN < 1276982994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck with that < 1276983030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In fact... I don't think Linux actually supports dynamic linking with a.out. < 1276983035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Well hey, ELF files are bloated :P < 1276983057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that more the compiler's fault? < 1276983066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the format too, I guess. < 1276983076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose ELF is one of the things I should just accept; it's not even particularly egregrious. < 1276983093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But to get into this "Just remove... everything" mindset, you need to be an extremist at points. < 1276983117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to a friend, sex while a woman is having her period is a "blood bath" < 1276983119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fyi < 1276983126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You have straight friends??? < 1276983168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: One thing I'm undecided on -- maybe you could supply nice opinions -- should it be for x86 or x86-64? x86-64 has needlessly large pointers for a lot of things, and a minimalist distribution would go well with non-recent hardware, especially on things like slightly older ThinkPads, but OTOH, with x86 there's the memory limit. < 1276983179 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B1334A8.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276983181 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why not both? < 1276983183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However: I forget the name, but there's a hack to access more than 2 gigs memory total on x86. < 1276983186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nice thing is: < 1276983195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86-64 just legislates this hack with some differences. < 1276983200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So x86-64 isn't any cleaner! < 1276983210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86-64's only actual advantage is that a single process can access more than 2 gigabytes of RAM. < 1276983223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, admittedly, a large advantage. < 1276983224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... < 1276983236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm not sure you realise that I have to maintain and /build/ all these packages. < 1276983240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One architecture will be hard enough! < 1276983268 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, build 32-bit first since more computers can run it, and then hopefully the experience will carry over < 1276983272 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION discovered "Choon" < 1276983280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Alright. < 1276983297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Hmm... do most distros strip executables by default? < 1276983300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they do. < 1276983301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't they do that? < 1276983304 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. They should. < 1276983304 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf????? < 1276983308 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the famous Tomasz Grysztar < 1276983314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Pretty sure Arch doesn't, at least. < 1276983321 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has also made an eso lang? < 1276983322 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu does < 1276983328 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, gcc is stripped < 1276983331 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll test random others < 1276983346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: Really? Which? < 1276983370 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Challenge < 1276983374 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is named < 1276983376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idea for an esolang: LOLCODE, changing the syntax to use normal words and brackets. < 1276983382 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of my /usr/bin, 4 are not stripped < 1276983388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hilarious, it will be, for it will be exactly a regular programming language! < 1276983393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Fair enough; Debian, yes? < 1276983398 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu < 1276983415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1276983431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Also... I'm considering removing /usr. < 1276983439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't hurt me, this is the most support I've got from one person so far :P < 1276983448 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276983512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain < 1276983521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/x --> /x < 1276983539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin; just /bin. < 1276983550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why does sbin even exist? Just don't give normal users privileges to execute them.) < 1276983661 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gimme an eso lang idea < 1276983663 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1276983736 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had an idea i'd make the lang myself < 1276983739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1276983761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably wouldn't, but i'd think i'll do it someday < 1276983763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway -> < 1276983765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1276983767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it prevens partioning all that stuff separately. In a minimalist distribution, eliminating them might make sense < 1276983810 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend was thinking of the FU** language < 1276983823 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you had to fu** the screen the clrscr < 1276983827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276983837 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some other stuff < 1276983891 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.126.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276983898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1276983910 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see my last message? < 1276983920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:38:59 No /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin; just /bin. < 1276983920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:39:10 (why does sbin even exist? Just don't give normal users privileges to execute them.) < 1276983920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : coppro: Also, just /lib too, accordingly. < 1276983921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Rationale: Who really puts them on separate drives? Yes, AnMaster, I know that; who else? < 1276983921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Or, in other words, who that is actually a real person does that? < 1276983932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I have now; and responded to it before I even saw it! < 1276983948 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :P < 1276983976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Also, I'll use lilo by default; it's actually very capable and can do things GRUB cannot (for instance, it can boot to JFS). < 1276983986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if the kernel updater automatically runs lilo nobody gets hurt. < 1276984003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, you know, it /is/ smaller and less crappy than GRUB :P < 1276984052 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'd make an eso lang, would i get a page on the wiki? < 1276984059 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::Ö < 1276984060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: anyone can write a page on the wiki. < 1276984068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it's so full of crap. < 1276984089 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1276984096 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would someone make it < 1276984098 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1276984100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Another advantage of static linking: Executables start much faster. < 1276984112 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should i do it < 1276984113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: if it was any good and popular. So no: you'd have to write it yourself. < 1276984128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: we're _mostly_ to lazy to do other people's work beyond simple typo fixing :D < 1276984133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too lazy < 1276984133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1276984135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276984138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*trope namer* < 1276984141 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has to by < 1276984150 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very popular < 1276984151 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1276984155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: uclibc or newlib, provide opinions! < 1276984160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: just write it yourself, lazy butt < 1276984162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no clue < 1276984169 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so am i alloud < 1276984173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: yes. < 1276984176 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1276984186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our wiki has no rules except ones that Grue sets and we only obey because he's irritating when he gets annoyed < 1276984187 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have my name somewere < 1276984190 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first time < 1276984192 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276984199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'd rather use dietlibc, but the gpl makes that impossible :( < 1276984220 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna make 100 langs so that i will have my name everywhere and become famous =)) < 1276984226 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah, gpl :( < 1276984237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well not quite. i just recently made a rule that the languages on the language list have to have links < 1276984237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the guy licensed the code gpl so that microsoft doesn't steal it, seriously < 1276984251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got fed up of looking at all the red ones < 1276984252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tinfoil hat much? < 1276984252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the gpl in this case has the effect of FORBIDDING BINARY DISTRIBUTION OF ANY NON-GPL CODE LINKED WITH DIET LIBC. < 1276984260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well I think he was being tongue in cheek but still < 1276984268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even rms tells you not to use the gpl for a library! < 1276984288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: this is all very sad because the code is very small, fast and high-quality < 1276984356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :init will probably be a tiny C program that runs a shell script -- /etc/init.start or something -- then listens to signals that signal various actions. < 1276984367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i almost deleted that hapyli link yesterday because the author was slow at making the actual article < 1276984377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, "# kill 1" would run /etc/init.stop, then shut down the system. < 1276984425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# kill -USR1 1" might run /etc/init.stop, then reboot. < 1276984440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have a shutdown(1) like so: < 1276984477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1276984481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a shutdown(1) would just be < 1276984483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kill 1 < 1276984486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a reboot(1) just < 1276984488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kill -USR1 1 < 1276984494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd just run them as root < 1276984514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "# kill -USR2 1" might, say, run /etc/init.stop, then run /etc/init.start again < 1276984518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :effectively doing a reboot-less restart < 1276984530 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wich would be more help full: doing a bf interpreter in 20 langs, adding stuff to 3code, making my lang? < 1276984544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: not the former, we have enough interpreters. < 1276984567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I /could/ do asynchronous server starting, restarting, etc., but if not much stuff is started at boot, and what is started starts fast, who needs that? < 1276984583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides, you could do asynchronicity manually with the power of &) < 1276984623 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then tell me a simple lang to make 20 interpreters for it < 1276984625 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276984630 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do it for free < 1276984635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: No. :P < 1276984638 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sweetoeware < 1276984650 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sweetieware < 1276984667 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What will be your shell? < 1276984694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Possibly the port of OpenBSD ksh. < 1276984700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly something bloated like zsh. < 1276984701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows? < 1276984706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly not bash. < 1276984721 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know where the name 'space cadet keyboard' comes from? < 1276984746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: I think its futuristic appearance. Not sure. < 1276984746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1276984772 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme an idea please < 1276984782 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't asked about who doesn't know :p < 1276984786 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Diplomacy-based language < 1276984805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what a ridiculous idea. this means war! < 1276985139 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what his name would be in Finnish. < 1276985216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Örygälli < 1276985233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait g is rare isn't it < 1276985237 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not my real name. :) < 1276985266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tännäri Suotta < 1276985292 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276985339 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tännäri is good. I'd like to translate my last name, though, instead of transliterating it. < 1276985371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does swett mean, anyhow < 1276985399 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his family exercises a lot and can't spell < 1276985418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Herttainen might be a nice translation. < 1276985495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wie hertzlig < 1276985638 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a guy named Kaj Sotala. Apparently, "sotala" means "place of war". < 1276985697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtle < 1276985983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: your name is not really tanner swett, I am pretty sure. < 1276985986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are 51 people with that surname; we aren't a that warlike people. < 1276986024 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: of course not. My name uses capital letters. < 1276986037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not Tanner Swett, either. < 1276986051 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1276986061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, maybe it is; you're listed as that on LinkedIn. < 1276986064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a very strange name, though. < 1276986082 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a rather unusual name. < 1276986111 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please give me an idea. I am idea hungry! < 1276986127 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not as unusual (to an anglophone) as Tännäri Herttainen! < 1276986132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: a Diplomacy-based language < 1276986168 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: a cellular automaton based on Go. A board game based on Conway's Life. < 1276986179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: But I can't figure out what language or anything Tanner Swett originates from. < 1276986195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My first name and last name come from English and English, respectively. < 1276986215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tanner is a profession, isn't it < 1276986218 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tanner" is a common noun in English, after all. < 1276986221 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a vocation. :P < 1276986232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um there is a difference? < 1276986253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swett on the other hand, is pure madness < 1276986262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, Wikipedia says that a profession is a type of vocation. < 1276986287 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think a profession requires lots of specific training and carries prestige. < 1276986308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tanner Sweat. < 1276986313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tanners aren't very prestigious, and I doubt many universities offer degrees in tanning. < 1276986329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that darn smell, i tell you < 1276986336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc) < 1276986343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are universities offering degrees in astrology... < 1276986346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276986362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a stellar education < 1276986376 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, interesting: http://genealogy.familyeducation.com/surname-origin/swett?detoured=1 < 1276986422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It's a nice name and you should be proud of it. Someone with a nice name should study at a good university! < 1276986428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...which is a completely irrelevant mixing of topics, but there you go. < 1276986434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you swarthy person you < 1276986438 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From Dutch, "nickname for a dark-haired or swarthy person", or "Americanized spelling of Slovenian Svet, a nickname from the adjective svet ‘holy’ (most likely)". < 1276986468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you have a particular reason for suggesting that I study at a good university? < 1276986469 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to translate the "tanner" part too, that'd be probably "nahkuri"; there are 158 people with that as surname, but it's not really a usual given name here. < 1276986481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You were discussing it with us before; moving university. < 1276986491 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1276986493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I googled your name and saw the university you're at listed on LinkedIn, which reminded me. < 1276986497 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276986512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are holding up a nondescript cup with lettering in your LinkedIn picture. How mysterious. < 1276986553 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder where that cup is now. < 1276986555 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks his bedroom. < 1276986560 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added some FAQ in IRC, please tell me of any mistake or omissions. < 1276986591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But... where... < 1276986595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: What does it say? < 1276986611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Host zzo38computer.cjb.net port 194 issue the command HELP FAQ < 1276986611 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can i do IF in bf? < 1276986626 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I squeezed my brains but i still cant think of it < 1276986628 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can use this command regardless of whether or not you have already logged in) < 1276986631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: just a moment. < 1276986635 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to his bedroom again. < 1276986672 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1276986675 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, does Freenode have ALIS? I thought I read somewhere that it does, but I am unsure? < 1276986677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ executed if current cell was nonzero [-]] < 1276986700 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it says, "2008 ARML Mug Problem: For integral x > 0, compute the number of pairs of distinct points A and B on y = x^2 where the slope of line segment AB is 2008." < 1276986718 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example if cur cell is 32 < 1276986723 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can i do? < 1276986741 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to check if no is 32 < 1276986741 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so, got any good universities up there? < 1276986789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Wave University is meant to be good, as much as I despise that name, I think. < 1276986806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+< -32 [ >-< [-] ] >[ executed if current cell was 32 ] < 1276986813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the Finnish name. fizzie? < 1276986835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That one assumes non-bignum wrapping cells.) < 1276986840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aalto. < 1276986857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That one assumes non-bignum wrapping cells.) < 1276986861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Aalto, yes. You're faster than my phone-fu. < 1276986865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That one assumes non-bignum wrapping cells.) < 1276986871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Is it good? < 1276986879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You know, it'd be easier to apply to a good university in the US. :P < 1276986890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Alternatively, I suggest applying for Oxford; if my friend can get in, anyone can! < 1276986909 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, my transcript is looking pretty icky right now. < 1276986925 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My grades for my first year: C+, A-, A. < 1276986934 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no personal experiencs with any others; I believe it's reasonably good compared to other Finnish places, but certainly there's a lot of stupidity around. < 1276986938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is not so good. < 1276986942 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1276986954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: On the other hand, dammit, my friend got in! < 1276986965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Friend is not actually as stupid as I am implying.) < 1276987011 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did your friend apply as a transfer student? < 1276987031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. < 1276987036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276987047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: you might want to check out the Brainfuck Algorithms page on the wiki < 1276987059 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1276987067 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so you're going (or went) to Aalto and found it pretty good? < 1276987075 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Brainfuck Olympiad would be nice. ^^ < 1276987075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: he is an Aalto fellow. < 1276987077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a tkk fellow < 1276987081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it am become Aalto < 1276987097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and poor fizzie am left with no clue of what to do in face of nameness \o/ < 1276987101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: there has been some brainfuck golfing < 1276987116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On 1 January 2010, Helsinki University of Technology became a part of Aalto University and was renamed 'the Aalto University School of Science and Technology'. < 1276987119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why we cannot have nice things ;-; < 1276987121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION replaces alise's language unit with a spare and sends the old one off for repair. < 1276987130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I officially graduated still from TKK, something like three months before the Wave officially started. < 1276987131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: sniff < 1276987134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a couple of brainfuck duel game variations < 1276987141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yay < 1276987144 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a poet, and unaware of this fact. < 1276987154 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We never had A- at the school I went to, but I generally got good marks < 1276987164 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am unaware, and poetic of this fact < 1276987169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my doctoral degree, if I ever get it done, will be from Aalto. :/ < 1276987176 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1276987177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I have just learned from my friend that Oxford is organised into homosexual cliques, and if your subjects coincide with the one he is in he can get you into Oxford. < 1276987183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: What do you wish to apply for? < 1276987185 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except, that in one class, there was not good enough to mark but the teacher knows I am good at it, so put "NM" and "SG" < 1276987213 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope those don't stand for "never mind" and "stargate". < 1276987220 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what subject, you mean? < 1276987238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes. < 1276987261 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: They don't stand for those things. "NM" is "no mark" (meaning the teacher did not assign a mark; please note this is not the same as zero), "SG" is "standing granted" (meaning you passed regardless of mark) < 1276987263 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math, computer science, linguistics, economics... something in that general area. < 1276987265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Disadvantage of the Aalto University School of Science and Technology: you have to be in a place called "Espoo". < 1276987270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, really, place names don't get more immature. < 1276987280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: He studies mathematics and philosophy, so you may be in homosexual luck! < 1276987281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Never mind" and "*so* good" were my guesses. < 1276987347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's right next to the Helsinki border, though, so when not doing something physical (lectures, exams) you can easily be in the hell-sin-city instead. < 1276987366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Not a fan of Helsinki, I see. < 1276987385 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so how does this homosexual thing work? < 1276987389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ...also, lectures are physical? < 1276987396 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No, I'm not asking you to explain homosexuality to me. :P) < 1276987401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, you see, when a person loves other people of their same gender and not of others... < 1276987427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Basically, in return for being inside a clique with inherent homosexuality, you are granted near-omnipotent powers. < 1276987444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These near-omnipotent powers are restricted in one way: you can only grant admissions to people who apply for the subjects covered by your clique. < 1276987447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I did live there for 22 years or so; I have nothing against the place in general, just don't think the name's any better. < 1276987465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oxford is an organisation of homosexual cliques; they call them 'colleges' in front of the townspeople. < 1276987471 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: huh. So your friend can simply accept me into Oxford? < 1276987472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(When they're not murdering them.) < 1276987484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And physical in the sense that there's no widespread practice of webstreaming them, so you'll have to be present. < 1276987488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: In a very homosexual way, yes. < 1276987525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1276987540 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, can I expect an acceptance letter in the mail soon? :P < 1276987613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Oh, sorry, new news from my friend: "I can't." < 1276987621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you're just not homosexual enough. Try again next year. < 1276987634 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know how homosexual I am? < 1276987637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's giving excuses, now: "The interviews take place when I am not there. Hence it will be difficult for me to work my homosexual magic." < 1276987640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do not be disheartened. < 1276987646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: If you were sufficiently homosexual, he would have accepted you. < 1276987659 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does he know how homosexual I am? < 1276987666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: He's near-omnipotent, remember? < 1276987671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. < 1276987673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this the "gaydar" thing I've been hearing about? < 1276987687 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, drat. I'll just have to go to Aalto. < 1276987692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly they have some sort of paranormal detection ability. < 1276987693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: They prefer to call it the "homosexual resonance frequency detector and reporter instrument". < 1276987732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... gaydar? < 1276987775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you must... < 1276987787 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many people in here are homosexual anyways? < 1276987797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough to create an Oxford clique, that's for sure! < 1276987807 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how many people in here asexual? < 1276987812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not many. < 1276987818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't any asexual cliques, anyway, as far as I know. < 1276987829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asexuality is not known to yield superhuman power. < 1276987946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I already saw the Alcor page. It's what I would call non-sequitar." I should probably stop reading uorygl's blog now; this is bordering on internet-stalking. < 1276987983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a blog? < 1276988001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://axiomofomega.blogspot.com/ Apparently. < 1276988003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least LinkedIn thinks so. < 1276988010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A non-sequitar, the most noble of all string instruments. < 1276988014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You last posted in Febuary. < 1276988017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*February < 1276988018 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it has 6 posts? < 1276988021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276988030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Can I just note that Cameron is an idiot? >_> < 1276988044 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: absolutely! < 1276988049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1276988097 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I am asexuality! (Yielding superhuman power in this case is unimportant. If it is required, there is better ways (?)) < 1276988107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You... ARE asexuality? Like, the concept itself? < 1276988126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you have any ideas on how to get him to stop being an idiot? < 1276988147 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sort of < 1276988150 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276988153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: A LART/Cluebat combination should work. < 1276988162 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Perhaps the personification of? The Greek pantheon has many of those. < 1276988178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what's the correctly agglomerated form of asexual and philia? < 1276988183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., the philia of being attracted to asexual people. < 1276988198 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing "asexualiphilia". < 1276988200 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a word "asexualphilia"? < 1276988209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saxofonilia. < 1276988213 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe look up in Wikipedia see if they know < 1276988215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since "asexual" is theoretically from the Latin adjective "asexualis". < 1276988223 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chop off the s, there you go. < 1276988225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Tried that. < 1276988232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'm asexualiphilic! < 1276988240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a disappointingly unrequited condition! < 1276988285 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you check the FAQ that I wrote in the IRC, yet? < 1276988297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If zzo38 *is* asexuality, we could just call it zzo38philia. < 1276988305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that's attraction to the very concept of asexuality. < 1276988308 0 :augur!~augur@pool-108-56-52-39.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276988333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What port again? < 1276988337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*port, again? < 1276988359 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Port 194 < 1276988366 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Host zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1276988370 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Command is HELP FAQ < 1276988374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attraction to the very concept of asexuality is "asexualitaphilia"! < 1276988378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"being put in cyro-stasis will forever scar your relatives and family. Perhaps you are a sociopath and don't care, but others will notice a lack of a funeral and a lack of closure surrounding your pre-mature "death". It's hard to think of someone being dead and being able to move past it if there is a chance they could be still alive. This false hope will undoubtedly harm your families and relatives greatly." < 1276988379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WJW. < 1276988393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WJW? < 1276988402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow Just Wow. < 1276988406 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1276988427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It works. < 1276988449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* faq2 :FAQ2: There aren't any channel operators on my channel, now what? < 1276988449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* faq2 : < 1276988449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* faq2 :It is working correctly as intended. There is nothing to fix. < 1276988449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* faq2 : < 1276988449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* faq2 :End HELP < 1276988450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1276988459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I would suggest making this a HelpBot, instead of building it into the server. < 1276988464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in to < 1276988476 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What is that quote from? :P < 1276988477 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I can see it works but I am asking if there are any questions omitted or any mistakes in the text? < 1276988478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: So what's the attraction to the very concept of pedophilia? < 1276988484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://axiomofomega.blogspot.com/2010/02/this-is-part-of-extended-discussion-on.html < 1276988488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I recommend you do not read it. < 1276988495 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will proceed to not read it. < 1276988499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It contains an extremely high quantity of stupidity from everyone except from Ian and Tanner. < 1276988502 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: pedophilophilia. < 1276988521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So philophilia is the attraction to philias. < 1276988528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what is the plural of philia? Is philia even a word? < 1276988530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what a coincidence--Ian and Tanner are the people there who read Less Wrong. < 1276988543 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the plural is "philiata". < 1276988550 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That quote is just amusing because it seems to basically be "doing anything differently from ridiculous traditions will make Jesus cry so DON'T DO IT" < 1276988555 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a guess, though. < 1276988557 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not want to add HelpBots and stuff like that. If you need additional commands you can write server scripts. < 1276988557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's Ian on Less Wrong? < 1276988562 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hariant. < 1276988577 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, the plural of philia is philiai. < 1276988590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: he basically spends the entire thread saying there is "No Science", with that capitalisation, in cryonics, despite some very concrete rebuttals; and basically claiming it's a scam without justification, making ~100 assumptions, almost all of them untrue, in the procses, then amending them when he is proven wrong. < 1276988597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a trainwreck, but sentient! < 1276988603 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, FORCENICK is a server script. < 1276988604 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolangs... If one has "asymptotically complete" language with sizable memory space and one wants to extend it to have infinite memory, what would be some bizarre and hard-to-use way? < 1276988611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: philiata is nicer. < 1276988619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is philophilia, not philiaiphilia, right? < 1276988619 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's wrong. Do not use it. < 1276988623 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1276988634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Hey, it's English, I can do what the fuck I want, there's no consistency in this language anyway :P < 1276988635 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, for the HELP comamnd I used the same response format as even Freenode uses) < 1276988647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Polyamory" even mixes two different languages, for fuck's sake! < 1276988664 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276988688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Bx44U.png laaaawlwtf < 1276988689 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So does English < 1276988697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touche. < 1276988698 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so does "dancing". "danc-" is from Old French, "-ing" is from English. < 1276988716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Spoiler: It's not actually Michael Jordan. < 1276988719 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: anyway, you wouldn't want to be like those guys who say "mansexual", would you? :P < 1276988729 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's pretty wtf whatsoever :P < 1276988732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man...sexual? < 1276988735 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mansexual" < 1276988736 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1276988744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I just find old movies a bit boring." -- @michaeljordan < 1276988750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I had a dream last night about lots of cats and enormous rabbits in a barn." -- @michaeljordan < 1276988757 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the counterpart to "mansexual" is--you guessed it--"femsexual". < 1276988763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I just don't understand why England still has a Queen." -- @michaeljordan < 1276988764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1276988767 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No. No I didn't guess it. < 1276988767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No, I didn't guessed it. < 1276988769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276988777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276988792 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking "wymynsexual" < 1276988811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking womansexual or something. < 1276988823 0 :micahjohnston!~Adium@174-23-77-18.slkc.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276988830 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276988833 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, Micah Johnston. < 1276988833 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "wymynsyxyyl" is more appropriate. < 1276988837 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1276988839 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal functional? < 1276988852 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do anithing in it? < 1276988867 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Front it. "wömänsexyäl" < 1276988868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waga_: It's not TC. < 1276988879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The author designed it to be minimal, but Turing-complete." is more a statement about the author than the language. < 1276988897 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's mean and yet so true :P < 1276988913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not a language. Any language must have 3 well defined items: 1) Gentle introduction - tutorial, necessary for understanding the idea; 2) A formal definition - a description necessary to reduce number of interpretations; and 3) A working compiler, interpreter, or whatever environment to try it out with examples. I propose a simple small table for each language specifying links for each of those items. The author can fill it or leave it unfilled, but < 1276988913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reader would be able to see if any intelligent effort was made to invent and develop the language. --Oleg 03:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC) < 1276988916 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, waga_: Beware of misusing the term "functional" like that, as "functional" in PL does not mean "it functions" < 1276988935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Later: < 1276988937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You are absolutely wrong. A language also needs functors. 91.105.76.79 20:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC) < 1276988938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1276988940 0 :micahjohnston2!~Adium@174-23-77-18.slkc.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276988945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: laaawl < 1276988949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Uh, guys, it's not a joke. OK? Minimal is not a joke! --Alegend 14:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC) < 1276988949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But neither is category theory! Unless MacLane was putting us on. --Ørjan 19:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)]] < 1276988950 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh, Micah's got his hands on the clonomat. < 1276988957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clonoscopy. < 1276988975 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... boo. < 1276988980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1276988983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hiss? < 1276988983 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276988989 0 :micahjohnston!~Adium@174-23-77-18.slkc.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276988999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so he cloned himself, the original died, and was then revived? < 1276989009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY PHILOSOPHY IS NOT ADVANCED ENOUGH TO HANDLE THIS HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION. < 1276989025 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: just continue thinking until it makes sense. < 1276989028 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some degredation in cloning though, and he's on clone 2 now ... < 1276989075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Nope, still doesn't make sense. < 1276989085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: then you haven't thought for long enough. < 1276989097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I see what you're trying to do here... < 1276989100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAKE UP ALL MY MENTAL CPU TIME! < 1276989111 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but only on one of your mental cores. < 1276989125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have, like, a bunch of them; you can spare one. < 1276989172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm actually running on a PDP-11. < 1276989182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I evolved out of the ADVENTURE game. < 1276989203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone left a dissociated press program running on a few too many files... and thus, me. < 1276989217 0 :micahjohnston2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1276989222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out that C is just Fortran in the wrong order. Or the other way around, depending on who you ask. < 1276989226 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: see: malbolge unshackled < 1276989231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortran brains aren't very effective, though... I rewrote myself soon after. < 1276989233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was painful. < 1276989249 0 :waga_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1276989254 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming languages should be made such that short things go before long things. < 1276989270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's my current multicore philosophy: We are currently at the absolute worst possible amount of parallelism in our computers. The physical universe is purely parallel, and sequential behavior is just a human construct for understanding, but our computers are no longer sufficiently sequential to do that well, nor are they sufficiently parallel to use a radically different, physics-oriented approach to programming. Instead, they're at < 1276989270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : some middle zone where we have to write sequential code and then chop it up. Yukk. < 1276989282 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why yes, that had no relevance on anything :P ) < 1276989292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You'd like the Connecton Machine. < 1276989292 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No, it should be put in logical order, in some cases that means the short things would go first, sometimes it doesn't < 1276989294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot. < 1276989301 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is bad because it has a whole bunch of short things at the end: blah (blah (blah (blah (blah blah (blah (blah (blah blah) blah (blah (blah blah)))))))) < 1276989301 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't the cm still imperative? < 1276989301 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know where the name 'space cadet keyboard' comes from? < 1276989306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you will now reply saying that you do. < 1276989319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: Yes, but considering the tiny ability of any one core to do thing, it wasn't really used like that. < 1276989324 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1276989333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Didn't one core operate on one byte of memory, or something? Or was it even a bit? at a time.) < 1276989343 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was there a central clock? < 1276989346 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there weren't it'd be awesome < 1276989354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the physical universe is not purely parallel. < 1276989374 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at circuits < 1276989375 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Malbolge unshackled have anything more esoteric than essentially using numbers as pointers? < 1276989377 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A purely parallel processor would suck; the results of each computation wouldn't be able to depend on the results of the previous one. < 1276989388 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "purely parallel" is a meaningless term :P < 1276989389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: I don't think there was a central clock, no. < 1276989398 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Which is why I felt free to use it :P < 1276989399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only many, many CPUs using communicaton junctions. < 1276989403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fuck, Feynman worked on it! < 1276989405 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. :P < 1276989407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You do like it, don't you. < 1276989414 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's pretty awesome :P < 1276989416 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I though the cm was based more on "mapping across arrays", i.e. each processor had the same instructions but different data, than about networks like circuits < 1276989423 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The problem is of course we have no useful programming model for it. < 1276989450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey, Feynman coded some parallel quantum algorithm in it. < 1276989460 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point exactly :P < 1276989460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...therefore nobody else can Q.E.D. < 1276989473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Also, he used a parallel dialect of BASIC he invented on the spot. :P < 1276989483 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that's fucking awesome. < 1276989486 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. < 1276989489 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That - is - fucking - awesome. < 1276989538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Want to know why? < 1276989542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He didn't know any language apart from BASIC. < 1276989561 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been thinking about a reactive processor that the cm is a teeny bit similar to < 1276989564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, he worked out using some crazy physics stuff that they only needed N slots in their communication hubs or something. < 1276989567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they had N+M. < 1276989579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using more conventional methods to work it out) < 1276989587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They went along with their safer idea. Turns out they didn't have the resources to do N+M or something. < 1276989592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N, of course, worked fine. < 1276989596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a man who only knew BASIC. < 1276989604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feynman is just incomprehensibly awesome. < 1276989631 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also consider Richard Feynman to be a hacker. < 1276989664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the axe-wielding sense. < 1276989681 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that isn't what I meant. < 1276989690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was what I meant! < 1276989692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was banned from being near safes when they were being opened < 1276989696 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to see what I meant, perhaps read the book "Surely you are Joking, Feynman!" < 1276989716 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: That is one thing he did. But not the only < 1276989749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If you want to read more about Feynman being a fucking awesome bastard wrt the Connection Machine, look no further: http://www.longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/ < 1276989783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ When we finally picked the name of the company, Thinking Machines Corporation, Richard was delighted. "That's good. Now I don't have to explain to people that I work with a bunch of loonies. I can just tell them the name of the company." ]] < 1276989900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: well they are 3-adic numbers, i.e. not integers. also it's quite awkward to use arbitrary many trits, i think. as if _i_ know how to program it. < 1276989955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they _are_ used as pointers, that may be the most normal part of them. < 1276989990 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this irc channel affiliated with esolangs? < 1276989999 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: yes, it is. < 1276990000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: certainly < 1276990004 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1276990020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: it's associated with just about anything but esoterica. < 1276990024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topic is intentionally misleading. < 1276990037 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's esoterica < 1276990059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: most of the stuff in the topic :D < 1276990063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[He was excited by the results. "Hey Danny, you're not going to believe this, but that machine of yours can actually do something [useful]!" According to Feynman's calculations, the Connection Machine, even without any special hardware for floating point arithmetic, would outperform a machine that CalTech was building for doing QCD calculations. From that point on, Richard pushed us more and more toward looking at numerical applications of the machine.]] < 1276990070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, and so on. < 1276990076 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1276990084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but _not_ turing machine oracles, mind you < 1276990091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Do you think building a massively-parallel processor as a hobby is possible today? ... it seems like you wouldn't be able to get small enough, low powered-enough chips to connect together and the like < 1276990107 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about fpgas? < 1276990117 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: don't you just get an FPGA? < 1276990118 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that building a massively-parallel processor at any scale less than a supercomputer is possible today. < 1276990122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64,000 FPGAs? Okay, so I'd want slightly less... but still. < 1276990128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(slightly as in vastly, but you need a lot...) < 1276990139 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fgpas /are/ massively parallel, aren't they? < 1276990139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: there's that 64-core chip < 1276990145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: not in the way that the CM was < 1276990149 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 is not massively-parallel. < 1276990155 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 is kinda-parallel. < 1276990162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the CM was 64,000 low-powered processors, acting on small bits of data, connected together with special routers. < 1276990179 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fpgas are a much better model for parallel computation < 1276990189 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because instead of connecting up sequential processors < 1276990194 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you connect up logic gates and suck < 1276990196 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such* < 1276990209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPGAs ... well, FPGAs are basically hardware, so they're parallel, but it's hard to define programming models for them since ... well, they're hardware ... < 1276990230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: the CM wasn't a crappy approach though < 1276990232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was excellent < 1276990251 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not hard to define programming models for them < 1276990257 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming models don't need to be imperative programming. < 1276990260 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :designing circuits is programming. < 1276990292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: everything you are saying is true and useless. < 1276990301 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it useless? < 1276990342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1276990433 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1276990696 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.127.235 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276990717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, tinix.org is taken. < 1276990750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276990786 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I love Pikmin < 1276990792 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll name the distro something completely irrelevant, like "pushpin". < 1276990793 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Inedible. Tastes like chicken." < 1276990816 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I started playing Pikmin once, but got this strange feeling of stasis and isolation. Indescribable, really. < 1276990818 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I stopped! < 1276990833 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I just got an idea for a parallel language. Like Pikmin, each IP can only do a subset of tasks < 1276990841 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: "Transom"! < 1276990849 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except you like lowercase letters, so "transom". < 1276990854 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Why transom? < 1276990858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: whoa, weird < 1276990860 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's completely irrelevant. < 1276990864 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, yes. < 1276990881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It was like I was playing, say, Microsoft Excel, not a game. < 1276990883 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange feeling. < 1276990887 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it's just not my game. < 1276990891 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes, that is a idea, try writing it more specifically or put in esolang list of ideas in case someone want to make strange thing < 1276990898 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The flight simulator doesn't count.) < 1276991007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "transom" isn't pronounced so nicely, though. < 1276991132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Also, it sounds like "ransom". < 1276991136 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to meet Richard Feynman. Too bad that's impossible. < 1276991259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Not if you perfectly simulate the universe before he died! < 1276991283 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Too bad that is also probably impossible < 1276991302 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1276991304 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not impossible, but you're not likely to find the input state... < 1276991312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it'd be hard storing it... < 1276991337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Come up with another arbitrary word. < 1276991360 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lanyard. < 1276991397 0 :The_Cat!~The_Cat@78-22-102-199.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1276991415 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Again. < 1276991452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Churchkey... you're probably not a fan of that one at all. < 1276991479 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dowel. < 1276991487 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cleat. < 1276991497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pestle. < 1276991589 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lanyard is nice but it's too vowely :( < 1276991623 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about "lanyards"? < 1276991641 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mostly the middle section -- anyar -- which is completely "soft" and now I wish I knew the correct words for these things. < 1276991653 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, even lanyar could be called that. the d balances it out but too late. < 1276991666 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only sonorants except for the d in that whole word < 1276991668 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to look up the word. < 1276991673 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lanyar has only sonorants < 1276991674 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's it. < 1276991678 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sonorant. < 1276991815 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sonorant. I could call it that! :P < 1276991835 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I could name it after some word for a frugal or minimalistic person. < 1276991846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dreenal. < 1276991888 0 :The_Cat!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276991909 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chewable. < 1276991938 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polyester < 1276991942 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blanket. < 1276991955 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pneomonultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconeosis