00:00:24 but I mean... I guess you could just continue having a non-determined x until the program halts 00:00:27 and then when it does 00:00:30 deduce that x was B 00:00:32 oklopol: the logs are long, and you are not nickpinging me, so... 00:00:35 and then flush IO and all that. 00:00:38 oerjan: good 00:00:40 for the x=b case 00:00:48 but you'd have to stipulate that /all/ programs halt. 00:00:53 whew, google seems to have removed that background annoyance again 00:01:02 oerjan: i redefined nondeterministic tm's and realized they have an obvious existing definition that's very different. 00:01:42 oerjan: what annoyance, by default there was no background annoyance was there? 00:02:42 nondetermistic branch points = parabolas. :D 00:03:03 ? 00:03:08 ...rofl. nevermind. 00:03:13 oklopol: well if it wasn't default i must have triggered it, because earlier today google's front page started fading in background images (somewhat varying ones) 00:03:22 (i use google.no of course) 00:03:22 I guess non-deterministic functions are parabolas 00:03:35 non-deterministic functions? relations? 00:03:49 ...is that what a relation is technically? 00:04:11 or vice versa 00:04:24 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:04:35 "multivalued functions" are isomorphic with relations 00:04:37 a function from A to B is a subset S of AxB such that for each a \in A there's exactly one b \in B such that (a, b) \in S 00:04:44 well exactly one pair for a 00:04:45 ah okay. 00:05:09 in a relation you let there be more pairs for a, and don't require there to be any, so basically just any subset of AxB 00:05:27 so multivalued functions 00:05:40 *or don't 00:05:41 although a function is single-valued by default (i.e. a multivalued function is not technically a function, at least not on the same set) 00:06:09 you can consider a multivalued function (and thus a relation) to be a function from A to the _power set_ of B 00:06:26 hmmm... might plan an esolang using future conditions 00:06:36 or you could just not assume multivalued function means function that is multivalued, but instead that it's a term. 00:06:52 this is what i do 00:07:02 I believe ?!= would have a reversed relationship of its state changes... the else-branch could be determined before halt but the true-branch cannot 00:07:17 oklopol: multivalued functions are important in complex analysis 00:07:35 i know that 00:07:40 perhaps you misunderstood me 00:08:02 i'm just saying if you say f is a multivalued X, to me that does not imply it's an X 00:08:02 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 00:08:09 unless that's the convention 00:08:20 hmmm... I don't think you can intermingle normal relationship operators with future-relationals 00:08:43 (!).(?=) is not the same as ?!= 00:09:13 oklopol: well that's what i was saying too 00:09:27 well... it might be the same actually... but I don't know how you could implement it on tm 00:09:41 it's a generalization not a special case 00:09:46 right 00:10:19 can you think of another example where X Y isn't a Y 00:10:57 non-commutative field 00:11:11 (or skew field) 00:11:33 == division ring, i guess 00:11:40 hmmm... ah okay 00:11:41 so 00:11:45 you don't have to wait until halt 00:11:48 if you specify a time 00:11:57 in which this state is supposed to occur 00:12:23 * pikhq may have a heart attack 00:12:26 oerjan: so maybe we could division ring multivalued functions... how about functional relations? 00:12:41 by default the time parameter of the operation is "from current time to time of halt" 00:12:41 ... Did that not turn that into a CTCP ACTION? 00:12:43 oklopol: perhaps also non-associative ring, rings may often be associative by default 00:12:58 ring = associative if * is? 00:13:02 yes 00:13:04 I was unaware such an IRC client existed. 00:13:08 hmm right + is always abelian and nice in every way 00:13:24 oklopol: it's hard to distribute over anything non-abelian 00:13:35 Anyways. Dresden Codak updated... A week... After his previous update. 00:13:35 is it? 00:13:42 why? 00:13:45 This is the first time he has ever updated quickly. Ever. 00:14:04 what kind of abstract algebra is functions and the composition operator? 00:14:39 oklopol: (a+b)(c+d) = (a+b)c + (a+b)d = ac+bc+ad+bd but also = a(c+d) + b(c+d) = ac+ad+bc+bd 00:14:52 you see you get the middle terms switched for free 00:15:55 hmmm... I think the concept I have of future-state determinism is distinct from non-determinism 00:16:02 i'm not sure i see how that's a problem, but interesting point 00:16:03 if you let a=b=1 then that gives you c+c+d+d = c+d+c+d 00:16:07 h 00:16:09 hm 00:16:10 oh 00:16:13 because not all programs can be simulated via a non-halting tm 00:16:33 er... rather 00:16:43 non-halting programs on this kind of machine can't be simulated via tm 00:16:45 oklopol: and if addition is a group it's then automatically abelian 00:16:59 shit 00:17:02 that's cool 00:17:15 should've seen that coming 00:18:17 i've always found the structures with two operators a bit too complicated for my taste 00:19:21 even though fields seem to be a locally perfect algebra (locally as in the group, ring, field, algebra over field etc family; clearly boolean algebras are the locally perfect algebra in the lattic family) 00:19:29 *as in in 00:19:34 ha... imagine a similar construct with a while loop instead of an if 00:19:42 while x ?= 2 .... 00:19:56 oerjan: do you agree with this very mathematical statement 00:20:07 *lattice 00:20:21 oklopol: you can think of rings as essentially the endomorphisms of an abelian group, that's one reason why they tend to pop up i think 00:20:44 *ring elements 00:21:00 hmmm... 00:21:14 no you definitely cannot determinize with a while loop and the will-equal operator 00:21:40 far too many non-halting cases 00:21:54 so objects = endos, addition means the combined endo "take images and add them", and * composition 00:22:21 yeah 00:22:51 oklopol: i have no idea what your very mathematical statement means :D 00:23:21 perhaps we can devise a group concerning very mathematical statements 00:23:29 to develop an understanding of what oklopol means. 00:23:46 eek 00:23:55 :) 00:24:02 err 00:24:15 hmmm... lets see 00:24:17 -!- biber has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:24:22 i recall you need commutativity of + to get one of the distributivities to work 00:24:22 what other turing machine ideas can I think of... 00:24:26 fuzzy turing machine? 00:24:49 oerjan: well umm 00:25:10 aaaanyway 00:26:16 a*(b+c)x = a(b(x) + c(x)) = abx + acx simply because a is a homomorphism, (a+b)cx = acx + bcx by definition of + in the endo ring 00:27:52 hmmm... @ is actualy better if you change ?= to a ternary operator 00:28:02 x = 2 @ [..halt] 00:28:34 mhm 00:30:06 first two operators are the future values to be tested for future equality and the third argument is a set of times represented in execution steps 00:30:14 *arguments not operators 00:31:46 hmmm... the semantics of ?= are not very elegant to simualte on a turing machine 00:31:54 they change entirely when there are two variables involved 00:32:00 x?=y 00:32:43 well no... I guess you just "watch" those variables from then on 00:32:51 similar in concept to a "when" statement 00:32:59 or maybe it was just that you needed that a is a homomorphism, it could be considered "surprising" that the proofs of left and right distributivity are different, because they look symmetric 00:33:26 "proofs" 00:34:57 oklopol: i think that without commutativity of +, pointwise addition of homomorphisms does not necessarily give a homomorphism 00:35:05 ahh 00:35:29 so while the homomorphisms still exist, they don't form a group 00:38:11 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:40:30 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:40:39 so (g+h)(x+y) = g(x+y)+h(x+y) = gx+gy+hx+hy = gx+hx+gy+hy = (g+h)x + (g+h)y 00:40:52 so you're right 00:41:14 that didn't take me 5 minutes to prove, i was looking for a sleeping bag 00:41:19 *(...) 00:41:53 IF YOU SAY SO 00:47:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:47:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:01:52 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:16:42 -!- augur has joined. 01:34:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:37:29 -!- oklopol has quit. 01:59:36 -!- lament has joined. 02:01:06 HOMESPRING has hilarious source code. 02:02:56 i always thought there was something fishy about it 02:04:33 ha 02:04:46 What exactly does its namesake print out as a program? 02:05:22 Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great 02:05:40 it would be awesome if it were a quine. 02:47:01 oerjan, hi there 02:47:08 oerjan, odd time for you to be awake during? 02:47:14 same for me 02:47:26 (in my defence I'm doing ubuntu update) 02:47:35 my times to be awake are always odd 02:47:50 oerjan, usually you stay on CET/CEST though 02:47:56 oerjan, not so today I notice 02:48:06 huh? 02:48:10 oerjan, no? 02:48:43 no. the only reason why you are noticing it now is presumably because _you_ for once are awake. 02:48:49 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:49:06 oerjan, hah 02:49:16 oerjan, my stomach. I'm hungry 02:49:17 damn 02:49:29 what shall I do? eat during night? 02:49:34 what a strange concept 02:49:42 O_o 02:49:47 oerjan, anyway I been awake during this time before 02:49:59 often not on irc though 02:50:04 mhm 02:50:28 oerjan, also this is just upgrade to karmic. Tomorrow (_NOT_ tonight!!) waits an upgrade to lucid 02:50:41 * AnMaster hates the ubuntu release names 02:51:23 Alliterophobic AnMaster 03:07:12 oerjan, hah 03:12:04 Attn: Everyone who loves the SCP Foundation wiki: 03:12:23 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-245761/a-sad-day 03:14:08 lol 03:15:30 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:15:42 i love how Dr Gears has the audacity to call Fishmonger petty 03:17:15 Hm? 03:17:22 You're active on the wiki? 03:22:36 okay that's absurd, the bluetooth icon (16x16 or maybe 24x24) in the menu bar turned into about 4x4 03:22:37 oerjan, ^ 03:23:32 strange are the side effects of upgrade-in-progress 03:29:53 Sgeo_: no, first time i see it 03:29:58 ARGH karmic gdm is horrible 03:30:03 is lucid any better? 03:30:30 it's like purple and stuff, i think 03:30:37 although i've taken steps to de-ubuntu my laptop 03:30:45 so i don't have the proper ubuntu GDM 03:31:49 GreaseMonkey, can you get the old bluish theme and have a "username" "password prompt" 03:31:59 rather than showing all user names and letting user click on them 03:32:02 which is a security risk 03:32:13 AnMaster: haven't done that :/ 03:32:34 i've managed to eliminate the stupid loading screens though 03:32:39 GreaseMonkey, how? 03:32:44 I need that done as soon as possible 03:32:50 it's somewhere, uh 03:32:54 GreaseMonkey, well it is upgraded from jaunty to karmic now 03:33:22 i can't quite remember, sorry :/ 03:33:30 GreaseMonkey, damn you ;P 03:33:33 there's some weird script-type-thing though 03:33:39 GreaseMonkey, where? 03:33:46 i don't think it's /usr/share/gdm though 03:33:52 there's so much crap in so many places 03:34:01 GreaseMonkey, I want to have text thing. No splash at any point 03:34:06 like I had in jaunty 03:34:09 textual boot 03:34:27 for a textual boot you'll need a stock kernel 03:34:30 i think 03:34:40 GreaseMonkey, I use a stock one currently. Need an initrd anyway 03:34:44 and then you'll have to get rid of some scripts i think 03:34:49 due to encrypted / 03:34:53 hmmkay 03:34:55 GreaseMonkey, I see 03:35:04 well it seemed semi-textual for me 03:35:09 up to a point 03:35:11 do you have a text-mode "Ubuntu 10.04" thing? 03:35:19 GreaseMonkey, it was doing kexec to reboot 03:35:23 so this could be non-standard 03:35:25 hmmkay 03:35:29 compared to normal reboot 03:35:37 i think i did a full reboot 03:35:38 it is still doing... stuff 03:35:44 GreaseMonkey, not during upgrade for me 03:36:02 wait actually this is 10.04 i'm thinking of @_@ 03:37:11 GreaseMonkey, right.. I'm planning that after I slept for a few hours 03:37:18 hmmkay 03:37:21 9.10 atm, had to go by it 03:39:23 GreaseMonkey, god dammit I'm going to switch from gdm to kdm or xdm just to get an usable login 03:40:07 GreaseMonkey, how do I get rid of the mail icon in the notification area? 03:40:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:40:12 I don't use that mail client 03:40:41 AnMaster: dunno... 03:42:19 -!- coppro has joined. 03:50:46 hmmm... anyone ever try to make a Prolog quine? 03:53:39 shouldn't be too hard 03:54:28 * oerjan googles 03:54:38 nothing in programming is ever really too hard 03:54:49 it's just a matter of expended effort. 03:55:40 hm that thing at http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_prolog.txt looks more complicated than i expected 03:56:00 it would seem that the query could be used to simplify things somehow. 03:57:04 phew, will continue tomorrow 03:57:40 everytime I look at prolog, I have to think about it much more than I should. 03:58:42 like constructed trees by describing child-sibling-parent relationships rather than performing commands to build the structure itself. 04:00:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it). 04:03:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:06:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:10:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:11:07 -!- augur has joined. 04:12:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:15:33 -!- jcp has joined. 04:16:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:18:16 yay :D http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?q=remove+google+background&date=2010-6-10&sa=X 04:18:53 hmmm... 04:18:57 what is the google background 04:19:13 can anyone think of a situation in a concurrent design in which you must synchronize two threads to do something at the exact same time? 04:19:32 I wonder how you would go about doing that. 04:19:38 the background picture(s) that google's frontpage showed earlier today, and which i complained about 04:19:48 *about here 04:20:17 or well i guess it's yesterday 04:31:57 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:36:25 Another Radio Linden song in the wild! 04:36:32 The Hanks - Once Again 04:37:39 unter den linden labs 04:48:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it). 04:50:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:05:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:06:49 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:15:59 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:22:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 05:32:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:43:22 -!- lament has joined. 06:44:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:53:14 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:58:22 -!- coppro has joined. 07:06:13 -!- tombom has joined. 07:09:23 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 07:23:07 AnMaster never heard of bologna? (pronounced "baloney") 07:24:04 "myyyyyyy bologna has a first name, it's O S C A R !!!!!!!!" ... 07:24:14 (Oscar Meyer, famous brand name) 07:24:33 He's not American. 07:24:56 And as such has not received our pro-artificial-meat-like-product propoganda. 07:25:20 "Bologna sausage er det nærmeste servelat man kommer i USA." 07:25:28 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/revised-entry 07:25:44 (i.e. us:bologna ~ very approximately no:servelat 07:25:46 ) 07:30:20 yeah, it's just cheap, round, sliced lunch meat 07:30:42 usually a mix of several things (turkey, beef, chicken, etc... TRIPE FTW!!!!) 07:30:47 ;-) 07:31:06 I'd hesitate to call it meat. 07:31:21 it's meat, just cheap and somewhat artificially mixed together 07:31:32 tastes fine to me, but some don't like it 07:31:43 -!- augur has joined. 07:33:49 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:38:55 * Rugxulo still isn't quite sure he understands what SCP is (logreading) 07:39:52 cooperative fiction, afaict 07:40:28 SCP is amazing, scary-as-hell, cooperative fiction. 07:41:18 omg, u banndz me, I well telle mah lawyur awn u!!! 07:41:53 that threat damn well _should_ be empty, since the wiki has a CC license 07:42:19 well, the world is crazy enough, that's for sure ;-) 07:44:08 amazing how something so useless can be fought over so intensely 07:47:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre's_Law 07:50:38 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:53:00 -!- Geekthras has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:05:15 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:12:25 -!- cheater99 has joined. 08:15:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 08:32:35 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 09:09:24 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:27:18 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:16:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:31:36 AnMaster! 10:32:05 Gracenotes! 10:32:14 Gregor! 10:32:18 Deewiant! 10:32:28 uorygl! 10:32:45 this augurs ill 10:33:06 coppro! 10:33:14 draw spaceships with me 11:05:36 hi 11:05:45 sup 11:09:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:09:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:09:59 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:14:32 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:35:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it). 12:10:36 -!- alissed has joined. 12:11:04 I guess that too, but why is it in the topic? 12:11:18 BTW, not on my usual box. Remember that unholy netbook? 12:11:33 Trying to turn it into a proper Debian install for the first time again. 12:11:38 Er. Second time. 12:12:00 Which means bootstrapping an ARM debian, then making it work with its unholy bootloader. Who wants to help? :P 12:28:12 Lively. 12:29:13 I looked up "furry" on Wiktionary. One of the definitions it gave was "An animal character with human characteristics; most commonly refers to such characters created by members of the furry fandom." 12:29:25 It had only two translations, but sure enough, one of them was Finnish. 12:32:55 Why is that so sure? 12:33:01 And why is this keyboard the devil 12:33:08 's soawn 12:33:12 spawn? 12:36:44 draw spaceships with me <-- http://conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spaceship 12:37:14 I appear to be unable to type colons. : 12:37:16 Oh, there we go. 12:37:28 AnMaster: Do you want to help me? You like Linux on perverse things, surely? 12:37:38 alissed, who are you? 12:37:42 alise? 12:37:48 if so what is up with the nick 12:37:50 The aliss'ed one. 12:37:58 I'm on that evil netbook. 12:38:02 ah 12:38:18 alissed, as for helping you, maybe. A bit pissed off with upgrading of ubuntu atm 12:38:29 I want to try and replace "horribly mangled semi-debian" with "debian". 12:38:44 alissed, the former being ubuntu? 12:38:48 It's an ARM box with some seemingly-custom bootloader, so this should be fun. 12:38:50 No. 12:39:00 alissed, okay do you have a CD drive in it? 12:39:18 It's debian with a bunch of custom software and thinsg such as non-root users & the package manager removed. no CD, just usb: but I am going to use debootstrap 12:39:24 So I should not need either. 12:39:37 and nothing would install on it by stock. Insane bootloader, you see? 12:39:37 so... how much disk space 12:40:10 459 meg of one gig 12:40:14 (free) 12:40:23 hm 12:40:25 not a lot 12:40:31 Not a lot -- but isn 12:40:36 't a base debian isntallation smaller? 12:40:41 I'm sure it is. 12:40:43 alissed, I don't know 12:40:56 alissed, can you boot an usb stick on it? 12:40:58 AnMaster: :) 12:40:59 Well, we can find out, surely. 12:41:00 No. 12:41:09 It appears to be hard-coded to boot only one thing. 12:41:18 And the method it boots is a mystery to us, or at least it was last time. 12:41:31 So I'm going to debootstrap /debian; that will yield a working chroot. I can go from thre... 12:41:33 *there 12:41:50 alissed, until we figured out how it boots I don't feel like touching the kernel image 12:42:08 It has a "linuxrc". 12:42:12 alissed, and this sounds like a PITA to fix 12:42:21 alissed, okay I think that means it is an initrd 12:42:26 not completely sure 12:42:30 Yeah last time i broke it just sent it back and got this shiny reflashified one 12:42:30 either that or initramfs 12:42:50 alissed, where is the linuxrc? 12:42:56 // 12:42:58 / 12:43:10 linuxrc starts with elf header 12:43:16 -- ELF? on ARM? 12:43:18 What? 12:43:27 Is... does that work? 12:43:41 alissed, hm 12:43:55 alissed, ELF is a generic format 12:43:59 oK. 12:44:05 *OK 12:44:21 alissed, it is supposed to be the same for all systems. linux use ELF everywhere basically 12:45:09 So, I figure that after I have /debian, I should slowly, manually replace userspace with the Debian version. Then I can think about making a new linuxrc. 12:45:25 alissed, okay linuxrc seems to be initrd, not initramfs 12:45:46 alissed, not sure what it is doing in / 12:46:01 alissed, and not sure how it would work there 12:46:16 Well, it has no /boot. Or /root, even. /Desktop :P 12:46:24 *shudder* 12:46:35 ircing as root *fuck yeah* 12:46:54 alissed, what command line tools does it have? The usual set? 12:47:14 Limited - but - yes. No file(1), for instance. 12:47:21 No emacs - but vi; so you 12:47:26 re pissedright now :) 12:47:27 nano? 12:47:31 alissed, why are you on that netbook btw? 12:48:14 Why not? I'm too tired to lumber upstairs onto the computer,h witso might as well have some fun 12:48:19 with this 12:48:19 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:48:22 stupid touchpad 12:48:24 alissed, where is the actual kernel image btw? linuxrc would be an userspace program 12:48:29 -!- MizardX has joined. 12:48:42 No clue, I am searching for it now. 12:48:55 alissed, maybe they put it in the firmware image or something like that 12:49:14 That is possible. If so, I will have to endure their kernel, but nothing more, hopefully. 12:50:28 AnMaster: It appears to not be on the FS, so. 12:50:36 alissed, what version btw? 12:50:42 Of? 12:50:47 kernel 12:50:59 Would dmesg tell me? 12:51:08 alissed, yes or uname 12:51:19 uname -r iirc 12:51:25 alissed, anyway should be near the top of dmesg 12:51:38 2.6.21.5-cfs-v19 12:51:46 hm okay 12:51:46 armv5tejl 12:51:48 not too bad 12:51:53 is that the arch? 12:51:57 alissed, could be 12:51:58 not sure 12:52:11 alissed, I'm not an ARM expert 12:53:02 Urgh I can;t paste from terminal 12:53:07 Very odd first lines in dmesg 12:53:11 alissed, oh? 12:53:25 [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuset 12:53:26 [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu 12:53:26 [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.31-22-generic (buildd@crested) (gcc version 4.4.1 (Ubuntu 4.4.1-4ubuntu8) ) #60-Ubuntu SMP Thu May 27 02:41:03 UTC 2010 (Ubuntu 2.6.31-22.60-generic) 12:53:28 that is odd too 12:53:35 the last line should be first 12:53:50 s3c2410-i2c (repeated twice): iiccon, 000...aa 12:53:54 lots of lines linke that 12:53:58 first line is "to DS" 12:54:00 alissed, wtf XD 12:54:05 alissed, I know what i2c is 12:54:12 but huh 12:54:18 the ... is more 0s btw 12:54:24 didnt feel like counting, sort of smal address size 12:54:26 small 12:54:26 alissed, okay 12:54:35 well so bus address I guess 12:54:42 on the i2c buas 12:54:43 bus* 12:54:49 but apart from that I have no clue 12:55:14 And that is all dmesgcontains 12:55:20 Messgaes from that i2c thing 12:55:21 alissed, anyway make sure user space works in the chroot, especially glibc being compiled to expect newer kernel might be an issue 12:55:28 alissed, okay, nothing else at all? 12:55:38 you pasted that "2.6.21.5-cfs-v19" line from it 12:55:39 "Aprtfrom the opening "to DS", no. 12:55:42 That was uname 12:55:44 alissed, ah 12:55:53 alissed, well, then I guess the dmesg log is filled 12:56:00 that the stuff from boot is no longer in it 12:56:09 ah 12:56:09 alissed, dmesg is after all a cyclic buffer 12:56:14 what is i2c btw 12:56:36 alissed, a bus for slow devices like temperature sensors and various other things 12:56:40 I cannot middle click - or type colon in terminal -- what's the $(echo) incantation? 12:56:47 Might be the cpu meter or battery meter then 12:57:04 alissed, a bit odd that it gives so many log messages but meh 12:57:05 "$(echo) incantation"? 12:57:10 100% cpu usage and i have no idqea why 12:57:17 alissed, top available? 12:57:23 $(echo -e something) or whateverto give a colon 12:57:51 Starting top stopped the hogging. >_< 12:58:16 Pidgin is using 20% of the shitty cpu lol 12:58:44 alissed, oh 12:58:46 I see 12:58:47 sec 13:00:33 alissed, $(echo -ne \\x3a) 13:00:36 that should work 13:02:17 fffffff i need to redownload debootstrap 13:02:23 fucking fuckity fuckshit 13:02:27 alissed, hm? 13:02:47 it wants devices.tar.gz or some thing and i think i need the arm distributtion of debootstrap 13:03:06 ah 13:04:51 it uses firefox on a like 400mhz arm with ~0 megs of ram so yeah 13:04:55 interwebs are not so fun 13:05:12 cool busybox. so free -m does not even work 13:05:48 125 megs of ram :))) 13:06:46 heh 13:06:49 alissed, any swap? 13:07:43 AnMaster: this thing uses softfloats! 13:07:56 AnMaster: dunno 13:07:59 closewd the terminal 13:08:14 you think them default non-busybox userland will be ok? 13:09:48 AnMaster: this thing uses softfloats! <-- whoops 13:10:00 alissed, I have no idea 13:10:01 it has man but not nroff 13:10:06 so man just errors out 13:10:13 XD 13:14:38 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:15:44 The Debian architecture "arm" is different to "armel". 13:15:47 whaaat 13:16:11 alissed, quite possible 13:16:20 "This is no Debian kernel and not supported by any means since Lenny." re 2.6.12.6 13:16:34 21 is ok though i guess 13:16:35 alissed, armv5tejl is? 13:16:38 no 13:16:43 that specific old version. not mine 13:16:50 hm 13:17:41 great, no even dpkg :)) 13:17:46 will have to extract the deb manually 13:18:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:21:06 Seems I need MAKEDEV. Anyone know where I could obtain that? 13:21:54 hm 13:21:56 in /dev 13:22:11 hm 13:22:15 well not on udev systems 13:22:22 alissed, this thing has static /dev!? 13:22:51 Not necessarily -- but it certainly does not have MAKEDEV. 13:22:56 PErsonally, my guess? Yes, static /dev. 13:23:17 alissed, does it have the mount command 13:23:25 run it to check 13:23:43 At least this Debian here has a /sbin/MAKEDEV from the "makedev" package. 13:23:45 Yes. devpts on /dev/pts, no other dev filesystems. 13:23:55 (Disclaimer: I'm not following the discussion.) 13:23:57 fizzie: Right... gotta install that too then 13:28:45 My thing does eabi, so, I can use armel. 13:30:44 no nano + can't type colon in terminal s so no vi. I sure hope it has ed. 13:31:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:31:44 alissed, abi? 13:31:54 alissed, sed! 13:31:58 "yaffs2" root fs. No, EABI. It;s an arm thing. 13:32:03 hm 13:32:07 alissed, what is eabi? 13:32:32 An arm thing. 13:32:40 Will makedev work even if my kernel only does static dev? 13:32:54 alissed, makedev is for static /dev 13:32:59 -!- augur has joined. 13:33:09 alissed, it creates static /dev nodes 13:33:54 Aha! It has makedevs, busybox makedev-esque yes? 13:34:16 alissed no clue 13:34:24 hmm... can't specify just some devices it seems, like you can with MAKEDEV 13:34:26 alissed, but I don't think so 13:34:41 Well, it creates the special files. but apparently not a specified list 13:35:09 alissed, debbootstrap needs this on the host? 13:36:06 MAKEDEV is not architectufre dependen6t -- a shell script? Yes, AnMaster 13:36:23 alissed, and yes MAKEDEV is a shell scrip 13:36:26 script* 13:36:31 it calls mknod I presume 13:37:37 I just killed process 5, hope that wasn't too important 13:37:39 typo for % 13:37:57 uh uh 13:38:18 Is that uh-oh or uh-huh? 13:38:22 $ ps aux | grep 5 13:38:22 root 5 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S May29 0:20 [events/0] 13:38:26 alissed, it is "uh uh" 13:38:36 alissed, here 5 is something that couldn't be killed 13:38:40 ffff makedev art broken 13:38:42 kernel task 13:38:44 AnMaster: uh uh meaning? 13:38:56 alissed, "uh oh but way worse" 13:41:01 if [ "$RANDOM" != "$RANDOM"] <-- Fails in certain edge case (detecting a capable shell) :P 13:41:35 XD 13:41:42 alissed, where is this from 13:43:30 colon incantation again plz? Also, makedev 13:45:23 . 13:45:56 alissed, hm? 13:46:04 alissed, $(echo -ne \\x3a) 13:46:07 alissed, that? 13:46:18 yes thx 13:46:19 alissed, save it in a text file 13:47:26 /c now contains the coloncantation :P 13:47:38 this is fun! 13:51:09 going to sleep for a while 13:51:12 it wants me to build pkgdetails.c from source. but i cannot find that file! 13:51:12 very tired 13:51:22 Okay then, clearly fizzie must now help me. 14:09:08 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:15:04 CakeProphet: YOU HELP ME THEN 14:17:32 :O 14:17:44 what's up 14:22:51 alissed: HOW CAN I HELP YOU 14:23:31 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:25:06 What ho, alissed! 14:25:41 cpressey! 14:25:47 Welcome back. 14:26:19 meh 14:26:20 CakeProphet: I'm attempting to convert this mutant, sub-£200 Linux netbook into Debian. It's a slow ARM with a custom bootloader and a mangled system. Sound fun..? 14:26:22 ;) 14:26:26 omg 14:26:28 its alise 14:26:29 how r u!! 14:26:34 Oh, not you again. 14:26:52 -!- alissed has changed nick to somerandomentity. 14:27:36 <3 14:27:56 cpressey: NEVER LEAVE US AGAIN. :| 14:30:14 somerandomentity: hmmm... well 14:30:17 Anyway, I'm stuck at a roadblock in this surgery...irritating. 14:30:20 I'm not really sure how I could help. 14:30:30 CakeProphet: Do you know anything about Linux? :P 14:30:42 a little.. 14:30:54 but... not really. 14:31:18 I'm likw an Ubuntu desktop user that knows the file system... 14:31:22 Darn. Clearly I must enslave... cpressey! 14:31:53 actually you want to write code in Erlang with me. 14:31:58 don't even ask. 14:32:18 alise, are you back home yet? 14:33:15 somerandomentity: Right, like I can help. I'm running freakin' Windows too. 14:33:24 somerandomentity: But have you considered NetBSD? 14:33:27 No, wait. 14:33:30 Maybe don't. 14:34:39 for shitty old computers I like xubuntu alright. 14:35:04 cpressey: This thing is already running Linux, so it is much easier to make it into Linux. 14:35:13 CakeProphet: This thin is nowhere near xubuntu running level 14:35:24 ah 14:35:25 then 14:35:27 what you want to do 14:35:30 is build an OS on it. 14:35:34 somerandomentity: Oh. So, you're trying to install a ... bigger Linux? 14:35:38 This thing is "500mhz arm with like 3 bytes of ram and a half-eaten debian with a window manager and firefox scrawled on" 14:35:57 then yes, you actually want to prototype a rudimentary OS on it 14:36:02 cpressey: One that has users other than root... and a working man(1), say, and file(1). And... a FREAKIN' PACKAGE MANAGER. 14:36:05 and then use it as a platform for more esoteric designs. 14:36:10 Ahh. 14:36:41 Did I mention it has a bootloader that is hardcoded to boot /linuxrc, which is some ELF file? And I think the kernel is IN THE FIRMWARE so you can't replace it. 14:37:09 so I'm trying to get debootstrap working to get a debian chroot in /debian, then I'll go frolm there. I've done it before, so I should be able to do it now. Can someone unzip a file for me? 14:37:37 My god, I dunno. That sounds hard. 14:37:43 Unzipping the file, I mean. 14:37:45 only if you write an Erlang program to transfer it to me 14:37:46 Yeah right 14:38:02 It's so hard you could die in the process 14:38:24 ha! that's what she said. 14:38:25 :) 14:38:37 XD 14:38:39 http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?s=fcb7f96a41c77dcbe428f4048c44cd88&attachmentid=926&d=1202066797 14:38:42 SOMEONE UNZIP THIS. 14:38:46 OKAY 14:38:48 LET ME SSH 14:38:53 OR ACTUALLY 14:38:57 I'LL JUST TELEPORT IT TO MY SYSTEM 14:39:01 cpressey: And do you know, they put FIREFOX on this thing! 14:39:02 ...or click that link 14:39:05 let's wget it 14:39:11 cpressey: Can you imagine how slow it is? 14:39:11 how do you want it, straight download? 14:39:18 The answer is no, no you can't. 14:39:28 cheater99: As opposed to what, a gay download? 14:39:29 http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?s=fcb7f96a41c77dcbe428f4048c44cd88&attachmentid=926&d=1202066797 14:39:31 404 14:39:39 somerandomentity, you're arousing me 14:39:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:39:52 It's the attachment here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=16121 14:39:58 cheater99: I feared that would be so. 14:40:03 somerandomentity: hmmm so 14:40:05 I unzipped it 14:40:09 how would you like me to send it to you? 14:40:14 "Now what do I do with it?" 14:40:14 somerandomentity, you ask a dangerous question you get a dangerous answer 14:40:23 IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE IT MAKES REFERENCE TO SEX LOL 14:40:38 CakeProphet: just upload it to the interwebs plz, anywhere 14:40:41 filebin perhaps? 14:40:49 not rapidshare or anything though, i think that would kill the browser on the waiting screen 14:41:38 http://filebin.ca/dfrqez/pkgdetails 14:41:44 bah 14:41:49 i was just about to filebin it 14:42:17 Alas, you were unable to win my love in that way! 14:42:31 NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo 14:42:36 !!!!11 . 14:42:39 somerandomentity: so I have a long-term project... when I'm not working on an Android app... of making an Erlang MUD cient. Dunno if you're familiar with MUDs 14:42:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:42:56 i can't take it any more ^D^D^D^D^D 14:43:23 alize *is* a mud character 14:43:54 CakeProphet: A MUD client? I thought it was a server... 14:44:18 Colon isn't \x38, so what is it?! 14:45:00 er... I meant server 14:46:40 ... 14:47:13 somerandomentity: 0x3a apparently 14:47:21 aka 58 14:47:45 Wow, they didn't give you any way to install nothing on that POC did they. 14:47:56 So much for Linux being open and empowering. 14:48:14 They gave me an infinite number of ways to install nothing. 14:48:29 Incidentally I can't type the colon i nthe terminal which is why this is even more hilarious 14:48:32 It works everywhere else 14:49:19 need to borrow a colon? Here: 14:49:34 Have at it. 14:53:56 debootstrap away! 14:54:00 CakeProphet: no middle click paste either 14:55:38 somerandomentity: Good luck. 14:55:49 this thing is soooo slow 14:56:11 cpressey: i've got a working chroot before,, but then i did the surgery of moving it all into the root all in one go, then it refused to boot 14:56:14 this is the replacement 14:56:27 I've been reading the Loper OS blog, btw. Stanislav's fundamentally wrong, of course, but it's one of the few blogs I can actually stand reading, for whatever readon. 14:56:31 *reason 14:57:05 Funny: I think that stanislav's basic os points are right, but his writing is unreadable vitrolic babble. 14:57:25 somerandomentity: Just get an interpreter of some kind on that beast so you can figure out what the ASCII value of a colon is, at LEAST. 14:57:36 He seems to be unable to agree with anyone; no camp satisfies him, no matter how similar it is to his own. 14:57:52 cpressey: How would I ask it that question if i can't type it? 14:58:05 somerandomentity: It is vitriolic, but at least it's not long winded and pretentious, which is what most others seem to be. 14:58:15 Anyway, it is so slow that what it really needsis a very stripped down e.g. ratpoison setup with mostly terminal apps 14:58:21 Right now it is unbearable. 14:58:37 cpressey: Have you seen the recent posts? They are most certainly pretentious. 14:58:43 Especially the titles. 14:59:41 OK, point taken. His references are atrocious. But have you tried to read Unqualified Reservations? 14:59:43 Euuuuuh. 15:00:40 Thankfully many other OS experimenters are smart enough to not even have blogs. 15:00:47 Unqualified Rservations makes me want to puke. 15:00:58 The man is an idiot but that isn't even the problem. 15:01:10 Oh, so you have. Oh, I'm not alone. I feel relieved. 15:01:37 Oh, Mencius Moldbug -- by the way Stanislav is a fan of him -- is not even the source of the Nock post on there. 15:01:47 I should say what I mean about Loper being "fundamentally wrong", but ... in a bit. 15:01:52 What? Really? Hah. 15:02:02 That's by C Guy Yarvin; his blog is moronlab or sometihng at blogspot. Google Moron Lab, you'll find it. Very ferdw posts, but acceptable. 15:02:56 CGY let Mencius post it first for some reason; they are friends too, though in the first Moron Lab post he calls Mencius a weirdgauy and says that frankly he wouldn't read his blog :-) 15:02:59 ferdw ---> few 15:03:09 Wow, for MM not to credit him directly makes him not only insufferably pretentious, but an asshole too. 15:03:12 Im seeing these lines thirty seconds after I write them!... 15:03:26 No, CGY didn't want to be credited. 15:03:29 For some odd reason. 15:03:43 Still, MM passed it off as his own. 15:03:51 Perhaps. 15:04:07 Maybe Guy didn't want to be bothered by the kind of people who read Mencius's bog. 15:04:39 I like how Mencius sometimes just decidews to dedicate a huge post to justifying pseudo-fascism. 15:04:55 Anything is moral if gifted with enough rhetorical questions and length. 15:04:59 Well, he said "Maxwell's eqns, I haz dem", when he could have said "This was submitted by a source who chooses to remain anonymous, and I'm hosting it for them." 15:05:09 Woot, base packagesisntalling... slowly 15:05:22 cpressey: That whole post was written by Guy, and appears on his mMoron Lab post too. 15:05:36 Yeah, haven't had the stomach to look at anything political from that rot yet. And won't. 15:06:18 Do talk about how Loper is broken, but... slowly, and in short messsages. Briefl ytoo. Using this thing for real-time communication is a joke :-) Please. 15:06:37 Hm, ok :) 15:07:40 It'd be more practical to use post! -- if not for my awful handwriting. 15:08:53 Wanting to program to a sane abstraction is not a bad idea. Wanting to program to the hardware is silly, because it couples you to the hardware. 15:09:27 I agree there. I do not think Stanislav wants to do that, though, perhaps I am wrong. He argues for thinner and6 fewer abstraction layers, but not none. 15:09:53 Certainly, I do not believehe itnends to write Low level lisp -- he is merely saying that a good architecture would be as close to possible to the intended highest-level language. 15:10:05 I think6 Loper is flawed in many ways, but not that one. 15:11:12 He does seem to accept the idea that Loper would be an abstraction layer, but he seems to consider it a necessary evil -- he has expressed that his ultimate desire is to program right on the machine, from what I remember reading. 15:11:48 Well, sometimes ultimate desire merely means "in a perfect post-singularity world with faster-than-light travel and practical quantum computing...". 15:11:55 Well, yeah. 15:11:59 In which case, yes, some hardware directly running high-level Lisp code would be nice. 15:12:52 My personal ideas for a perfect OS are wildly flitting around different ideas. 15:13:00 Well, it's got me thinking about VMs, anyway. Most of today's VMs are designed to support HLLs (JVM, .NET, etc etc). They're not designed to model hardware. 15:13:47 Something that's like Oberon, like Smalltalk, like Plan 9; like Loper, like ooc/cap, like whatever the VPRI are doing right now; like ... 15:13:49 A VM that actually provides a good abstraction for both the machine and for programming, is what I see as the best idea in Loper. 15:14:40 still, I seem to have some ideas or combinations of ideas that are quite uniquely mine, so that is encouraging. 15:15:20 Well, let 'em ferment :) And get your crap machine outfitted (sounds like that's successfully in progress) so you can experiment :) 15:15:37 I don't know if I have any really unique OS ideas. 15:15:56 Oh heck, experiment on this thing? The keyboard is unusable, the 7" screen almost as much, and it can barely run anything -- and I believe it could only boot Linux with a specific kernel version! 15:15:57 Esolangs, yes. I've got another one in the barn. 15:16:13 :D 15:16:20 * CakeProphet has like two esolang ideas. 15:16:30 cpressey: Woot! 15:16:35 Not that that is a rareoccasion, for you ... 15:16:58 Aren't you well on 6yoru way to beating zzo? Have you already? 15:17:37 It depends on how you count. But I still think I'm third, behind zzo and Wouter. 15:18:01 But more of mine are implemented than zzo's... and more of my implementations are public than Wouter's. 15:18:04 I think one thing I should aim for in my OS is small size. Yes, that's irrelevant today, but you can have a complete, bootable, graphical Oberon distribution with a compiler, TCP/IP stack, web browser, and much else, that fits entirely on a 1.44 meg floppy disk. 15:18:28 It's a measure of simplicity, in a way: why do I need this code? Could I not mnake a ismpler layer? a la Forth. 15:19:02 If I set myself no constraints, I will .produce an infinitely good OS -- that has infinite system requirements, takes up an infinite amount of disk, and whose release is infinitely prolonged. 15:19:11 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:19:23 I would totally aim for simplicity. That should lead to small size -- if it doesn't, it would be theoretically worrisome, but I guess not worrisome in practice. 15:19:24 cpressey: Oh, Wouter. Damn, I forgot how many languages that crazy guy made. 15:19:32 More of yours are implementable than zzo, I tihnk. 15:19:43 Well, I have more *named* languages than Wouter does :) 15:19:56 cpressey: Simplicity is totally subjective, though, so I need some metric thamt models it that is relevant to machines and not just humans. Thus, disk footprint. 15:20:04 Wouter has [named_languages]! 15:21:10 I also want some sort of grand unifying model of STUFF, not necessarily objects. Definitely do away with disk/ram address spaceseparation. 15:21:42 Would be nice tohave some sort of stuff-persistence that can serialise any object in a format transmittable to anyone else. and all instances of stuff should be totally sandboxed from each other, so it would always be safe. 15:22:37 And of course, the itnerfce has to be so differnt and so obviously better than everything else. 15:23:00 Composable like command-line applications, but rich like graphical applications, and discoverable without using help-files, i.e. self-describing. 15:23:05 somerandomentity: S-Expressions are one possibility for STUFF. 15:23:20 Efficient use of space, seamlessly blending all types of stuff and doing away with applications to produce a data-basewd, not application-basewd, intreface. 15:23:21 Somehow. 15:23:30 cpressey: S-Expressions are not alive. 15:23:35 They do not run things, keep state. 15:23:39 They do not interact. No, they are juts syntax. 15:23:50 What i am looking for is something like an object model, except possibly not even OO. 15:23:59 And EVERYTHING would fit into it. 15:24:13 The whole system would just be a bunch of them, connected together. 15:24:59 Well, when I share something with someone else, I don't, generally, WANT it to be alive. 15:25:05 Or rather, when I am on the receiving end. 15:25:10 Please do not mail me a snake. 15:25:17 TYou miunderstand! STUFF is not serialisation! 15:25:33 STUFF is the model for everything, it is like a Smaltlalk object environment -- smalltalk started as an OS! 15:25:43 Serialising STUFF should be possible, yes, but that is not what I am trying to find! 15:25:44 Smalltalk still is an OS IMO :) 15:26:10 Like FORTH, it's a language that brings in a whole environment with it. 15:26:19 and STUFF being alive should never be a problem: all STUFF would be secure-by-design67, some perhaps cryptogrpahic mechanism to ensure that they are perfectly sandboxed from each other 15:26:43 only interacting when the user allows it, explicitly or implicitly -- some how -- and of course I cannot articulate this because I have not found STUFF, or the interface's, true form yet 15:27:00 "But that's the plan." 15:27:40 OK. 15:27:45 I'm working on smaller problems :) 15:28:02 My vision in this area is not so broad. 15:28:18 Hm, I wonder if I am a FORTH hypocrite. 15:28:20 IT's not the ultimate dream OOS if it's not infinitely broad. 15:28:23 Fuck this keyborad. 15:28:25 I love the language, but I never use it. 15:28:29 silly question but I'm trying to read script(4) from erlang man pages 15:28:37 but for some reason erlang includes non-erlang manpages 15:28:43 I amn the same way ; there is something about Forth that makes ita bhorrent to existing environmentrs. 15:28:46 A forth OS, perhaps. 15:28:46 in its man command... and so I get some BSD tool 15:28:53 instead of what I'm looking for 15:28:58 CakeProphet: I think erl -man just puts the erlang man pages in your manpath 15:29:05 CakeProphet: try erl -man cat 15:29:12 Also, extending forth to make it high level from within itself, whioe certainly possible, involves ugly spaces in between words and the like 15:29:16 So it is suboptimal, in ways! 15:29:22 man 4 script, also? 15:29:22 yes, that would seem to be the case... I can man ls for example 15:29:31 cpressey: but how do I get script(4) instead of script(1) 15:29:51 man 4 cript 15:29:56 script 15:30:02 ah okay. 15:32:46 man n p ==> read manul page p(n) 15:32:53 *manual 15:32:55 somerandomentity: OK, something more semantic than S-Exps. A computer is a piece of hardware, right? Made up of smaller pieces of hardware. So what if the OS is a piece of virtual hardware, made up of smaller pieces of virtual hardware. Then the central abstraction is whatever is common to all these pieces. That would include, at least, a rigorous definition of how they interact. 15:33:07 should I bother with embedded mode? 15:33:10 cpressey: With Plan 9 for instance, STuFf is files, except they don't hhave living code in there. 15:33:18 For Smalltalk, STUFF is the object environment. 15:33:21 CakeProphet: IMO, no, not at all. 15:33:30 embedded mode? 15:33:38 Put erlang on a nokia phone. 15:33:45 :) 15:34:01 I want an Erlang smartphone. 15:34:05 EXTREME MULTI-TASKING 15:34:24 Your children will run faster thanGOOGLE 15:34:32 And google will be like sloooooooooooooooooooooow dooooown 15:34:36 FUCK YOU 15:34:41 KENYANS 15:34:51 somerandomentity: Oh, just had another thought, but it's slipping away. 15:34:52 FASTER THAN GOOGLE KENYA 15:34:52 Oh. 15:34:55 yeah. 15:35:06 cpressey: yeah? 15:35:27 this boot script format is weird. 15:35:32 I want an OS/VM/Environment/whatever that makes it as easy for me to manually do the things a program does, as it is for the program to do them. 15:35:32 it's just... tuples and lists 15:35:40 Otherwise debugging is hell. 15:35:52 cpressey: That seems reasonable. 15:36:12 like Erlang? 15:36:56 That's one of those LISP machine ideals -- visibility into what's actually going on, to support debuggability. 15:37:04 cpressey: Also, IMO, programming should become part of the user interface. The difference between users and programmers is that programmers realise that there's no difference between using and programming. Fare said that. 15:37:22 somerandomentity: Mostly agree, with maybe some small reservations. 15:37:23 Ideqally it should be simpler than the prorgamming of today, but then so should programming itself be. 15:37:35 That would be one such reservation :) 15:37:41 cpressey: Yes, I definitely think we should not be writing C every time we want to rename some files! 15:37:50 hmmm... I don't understand kernelProcess in the boot script. 15:37:55 So this needs thinking. Just like every aspect of OSes. 15:38:36 ...so are we talking about OS design here, I take it? 15:38:40 well... 15:38:43 what I have found 15:38:45 you don't say. 15:39:03 I'm thinking of it as "environment design" atm, but it changes 15:39:03 is that in every instance of OS design plans I've seen 15:39:24 the progress tends to stop at design discussion 15:39:33 you don't say. 15:39:45 what is an OS but an environment? 15:39:46 We're talking on the very high, theoretical level here. We are not planning to start coding tomorrow. 15:39:48 Ah, well implementation is a bitch, and even if you get that far, adoptation is nigh impossible :) 15:39:57 *adoption 15:40:01 psh, screw adoptation 15:40:10 We're basically discussing higher mathematics vs doing accounting by hand. 15:40:10 ADOPTERATION 15:40:14 but yeah, if I ever get into an OS design project 15:40:19 The people who buiild actual OSes do the latter. 15:40:30 I will make sure I make a prototype kernel without worrying about any kind of aesthetics. 15:40:46 Then you will have made a worthless UNIX-esque clone and helped nothing in the field of OSdesign. 15:40:54 ...no 15:41:00 the prototype is simply to aid design later 15:41:04 because you now have something to work with 15:41:05 Hell, any realisation of my perfect OS would contain no c code whatsoever. So that would be hard to do a first-draft of. 15:41:06 rather than just an idea. 15:41:18 We have something to work with: ideas. 15:41:26 Ify ou know how systems work youdon't need a kernel to find out. 15:41:35 c code is C code, not stuttering coed, btw. 15:42:13 Well, I for one am just blowin' ideas. I have no plans or hopes of actually implementing them. 15:42:14 I'm just saying... a quick prototype helps speed up actual implementation. 15:42:45 I suppose it matters less if you have more experience with low-level programming 15:43:11 I am not even thinking of it as an OS right now (I think I already said that) because I KNOW what a huge task it would be to actually build a full-blown OS, and how much of that is uninteresting, like writing device drivers. 15:43:13 but for those of us (like me) who don't.. 15:43:20 My perfect os would have vvery little low level programming whatsoever :) 15:43:32 You can talk about low-level things, likehardware, in high level code. 15:43:34 I don't really think that's possible alise... 15:43:39 Ye it is. 15:43:43 See Oberon for one example. 15:43:46 maybe later 15:43:47 but 15:43:50 Also Smalltalk. 15:43:51 there will /always/ be low level code 15:43:58 at some layer. 15:44:01 CakeProphet, I said very little . Not none. And that is no67t even true 15:44:11 High level hardware is perfectly possible. 15:44:15 Or would you complain about its microcode?! 15:44:18 ....via low-level code, yes it is. 15:44:31 we do it all the time as programmers 15:44:38 So make one without microcode, perfectlypossible. 15:44:40 Kabam, no low level. 15:45:28 The Styx architecture is fairly nice. 15:45:37 I'd probably take a route similar to that 15:45:45 with Erlang perhaps 15:45:52 I'm thinking of it as an environment, or VM I suppose, because that a) makes it feasible to implement without upsetting this ossified accretion of junk technology we call "state of the art" and b) is much more in line with language design/implementation, which I know I can do. 15:46:08 well... 15:46:11 cpressey: ideal hardware is functional machine -- like reduceron, graph reduction mchine.agreed? I mean long-term-ideal 15:46:16 there's the "virtual OS"... which makes implementation easier. 15:46:21 just have everything in a VM 15:46:34 and then you don't really need to worry about drivers in your OS/environment code. 15:46:48 and I should *probably* be trying to get work done, but when your vendor's service is returning 500 Server Error, and you have no answer from that, or on your side, what can you do? 15:47:12 somerandomentity: Um -- not entirely agreed -- but I can see that viewpoint 15:47:37 I just don't know if it's ideal. It's certainly nicer in many many ways 15:47:41 cpressey: what is your idqeal then? also, nothing, you can do NOTHING, except slack off 15:47:48 Hah 15:48:03 essentially a virtual OS needs to worry about is a) having low-level resources accessible through some kind of high-level service b) process management and scheduling c) anything else it wants to abstract. 15:48:34 A real os acheives the true goal, however: slinking off this immortal coil of shittiness 15:48:42 bad metaphors ftw 15:48:50 terrible, actually. :P 15:48:52 The rabble will always complain that GC and abstraction layers are too slow, of course... 15:49:06 ....is OS design a popularity contest? 15:49:07 cpressey: The worst part of making an os for me is beleieve it or not typography. 15:49:30 I'm a typography nut, and designing my own font would just be embarrasingly bad in its result 15:49:47 plus writing all the rendering libraries... 15:49:57 As for my ideal hardware... probably something like NVRAM FGPAs where I can build new circuits on the fly. 15:50:01 The rest is just computer stuff. I'm good at computer stuff, I can implement that... 15:50:06 *FPGAs 15:50:37 Typography no problem for me, I would steal the Commodore 64 character set. 15:50:56 >:| 15:50:57 The entire Styx architecture is in a VM... I think it's a pretty good strategy for clean high-level OS designs. 15:51:27 cpressey: But I want to innovate in interface, too! 15:51:45 I would just ditch everything is a file.... why would I event want to do that? 15:52:00 And interface design is human-computer interaction, information presentation (a la tufte) and typography. 15:52:08 CakeProphet: ... 15:52:16 Everything is a file is but one incarnation of STUFF. 15:52:24 It is not the best, but it is still STUFF. 15:52:30 Do not diss STUFF. STUFF is good. 15:52:46 You are also indirectly dissing Plan 9. You fail in multitudes! 15:52:56 I'm not saying it's a bad architecture 15:53:16 it's just been done... and there's probably a lot of things that don't really make sense as a tree of read/write character streams. 15:53:24 just sayin' 15:53:28 cpressey: this thing uses *XFree86* 15:53:45 CakeProphet: As long as you replace it with some OTHER unified model of STUFF. 15:53:57 also, Plan 9 seems to manage fine although its appproach DOES have flaws 15:54:39 wow, but it has pulseaudio 15:54:43 this thing is crazy 15:54:52 ...I have no clue what STUFF is. 15:55:19 sTUFF is exactly what it looks like: stuff. You must have a grand unified model of STUFF, be it Smalltalk objects, Plan 9 fgiles, or something of yoru own designing. 15:55:35 Not having a grand unified model of STUFF is the definifion of failure: it means you have failed to actually design your OS. 15:55:47 Culprits include... every popular OS in existence, and mostof the unpopulra ones. 15:55:48 ...ah. 15:56:15 so every kind of data and process interaction must conform to this data representation 15:56:39 pretty much -- and hopefully code too. Perhaps not process interaction, it cn be a little bit looser. 15:56:55 But you don'tw ant something ridiculous, like 3 types of IPC, both control files AND ioctl() crap, and so on. 15:57:04 I would say support for communicate more than byte streams would make sense. 15:57:05 That's cruft, not design. 15:57:13 CakeProphet: agreed 15:57:15 "file" is like Advanced STUFF Substitute. 15:57:22 I lean more to the smalltalk camp than the plan 9 camp 15:57:23 a more high level data structure. 15:57:43 Android has a somewhat interesting IPC model. 15:57:47 We totally need to backronym STUFF now. 15:58:02 The T should stand for THING. 15:58:08 S T Unified f f 15:58:18 I googled it and one that I found was "stuff that undermines family fun" 15:58:34 Simple T Unified Flexible F 15:59:12 Simple Thing-Unifiable Flexible Fornication 15:59:15 erm 15:59:22 Simple THINGs Unified For Flexibility 15:59:24 Simple thing-unifying flexible fornication 15:59:40 cpressey: You can't referenceSTUFF in THING, though. It has to be mutually recursive. 15:59:54 STUFF that unifies for flexibility 15:59:57 THINGS, where the S stands for STUFF ? 16:00:04 Yes. 16:00:34 so in Android 16:00:38 THINGS = THINGS helps indicate N G STUFF 16:00:55 THINGS = THINGS helps indicating notation; good STUFF 16:01:01 you can send/receive "intents" between different "components" 16:01:38 Oh, and in my not-so-humble opinion, any realisation of STUFF that doesn't have items of STUFF being se\cured from each other by dewsign sucks. 16:01:43 the type of the intent determines where it goes. The sending process doesn't specify a specific process to receive the intent. 16:02:28 and I think you can pass along a hash table of key-values strings 16:02:33 along with the intent. 16:03:03 yawn 16:03:10 somerandomentity, how is the replacement going? 16:03:11 The beast awakens. 16:03:31 somerandomentity, I'm still really tired, and family is making food 16:03:32 AnMaster: debootstrap is happily twidddling along configuring things\. 16:03:32 so... 16:03:42 cpressey, high 16:03:44 err 16:03:45 hi* 16:03:47 assumign the chroot works, I will gradually and slowly perform surgery to replace the system with the chroot. 16:03:53 yeah really tired 16:04:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539]). 16:04:34 Basically, I'm giving a retarded baby a brain transplant by moving all the neurons of a smart brain to it. 16:04:38 You have to be quite craeful. 16:04:41 *careful 16:05:11 "Configuring ed..." thanks debootstrap 16:05:26 somerandomentity, do not replace the busybox stuff on the host 16:05:29 to begin with at least 16:05:34 "Configuring info..." NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo 16:05:51 AnMaster: i won't; nor any of its specific things like the apps, or the linuxrc 16:06:02 good 16:06:08 I'll start by just replacing most of /usr/bin, say. 16:06:10 somerandomentity, what apps? 16:06:19 Move on to things like /etc... 16:06:32 somerandomentity, be very careful with these 16:06:34 Then /bin... /usr/sbin... and finally build me a linuxrc. 16:06:41 somerandomentity, first figure out what exactly linuxrc does 16:06:48 AnMaster: Like its weirdo wifi things and whatnot 16:06:51 AnMaster: of course 16:07:01 hopefully i'll have a non-glacial browser by then so i can do that properly 16:07:04 somerandomentity, it might depend on calling some specific app somewhere in /usr/bin 16:07:07 this will never be fast, though. 16:07:13 which must be the non-replaced version 16:07:18 barely any ram, slow arm... 16:07:21 AnMaster: yes 16:07:30 i'll only replace usery tools 16:07:38 i know it will be from debian stock or very similar 16:07:48 since they don't seem to have been smart enough to do anything but remove shit 16:09:30 AnMaster: i may end up just making the rest of the system fit around linuxrc 16:09:39 since e.g. replacing the kernel seems impossbiel 16:09:55 somerandomentity, flash the flash? 16:10:16 AnMaster: ok, crazy idea: if i removed almost everything and had debian in a subdirectory, then made it autorun some process as root that dismantld the system and loaded debian, like loadlin? 16:10:27 somerandomentity, call company and ask for documentation 16:10:31 a really perverse bootloader, possible? 16:10:36 AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHAHA 16:10:39 somerandomentity, idea: logic probe during boot to figure out what it does 16:11:13 somerandomentity, reverse engineer linuxrc 16:11:38 this thing cost less than two hundred pounds, and the flagship use-interwebs anywhere app uses a gprs connection to a server running ie. it sensd all link clicks and text entries, the serversends back a comrpressed screenshot with link form fiel information 16:11:48 *link and form field information 16:11:50 *IE 16:12:00 documentation? From them? by asking? I THINK NOT 16:12:10 They probably do not have any documentation! 16:12:43 somerandomentity, what do you mean? firefox does that? 16:12:54 nope, their Ubisurfer thing 16:13:04 ...? 16:13:21 bbl food 16:13:22 it's a shitty netbook. get it? 16:13:48 it has a gprs connection thta you are only allowesd to use by using their internet browser thing, that connects to one of their servers which runs IE and sends back screenshots of web pages. 16:14:08 debootstrap finished! 16:16:15 By gum!-- the chroot works!-- 16:18:45 somerandomentity: Yeesh, nick length, dude 16:19:12 It fits, so deal :-) 16:19:25 If cheater99 wasn't creepy this would never have happened 16:19:40 Does the longer/different nick make him less creepy? 16:20:00 somerandomentity: Congrats on working chroot. Topping, what? 16:20:39 cpressey: Topping? is that even a thing? 16:20:53 Deewiant: No, but it makes me some random entity, rather than [redacted]. My disguise, it is flawless. 16:20:55 * cpressey is half-in "Talk like a Wodehouse character" mode these days 16:21:22 somerandomentity: There are shorter disguises 16:21:30 Deewiant: Shut up. 16:21:36 * Deewiant shuts up 16:21:49 So, chroot works: now the hard part can begin. Major system-wide surgery. 16:22:01 ...what the crap 16:22:04 my mouse is stuck drabbing a Chrome tab 16:22:06 it will not let it go 16:22:47 Cute 16:22:53 ... 16:22:58 :-D 16:23:08 like.. 16:23:16 I really do not know how to make it stop without restarting my computer 16:23:26 or killing chrome I guess. 16:23:33 You mena restarting X didn't help? :) 16:23:35 *mean 16:24:01 ...don't know how to do that. U_U 16:24:11 I mean, I do 16:24:15 but not the name. 16:24:17 of the command 16:24:33 ctrl-alt-f1; log in; pkill -u $USER 16:24:50 ctrl-alt-backspace 16:25:04 when i was using x, istr that worked to reset it 16:25:07 That tends to be disabled nowadays 16:25:11 drat 16:25:17 Might still work, though 16:25:17 ls takes 0.08-0.09 seconds. Impressively slow. 16:25:27 (on a tiny dir) 16:25:29 A couple hours back on an NFS it took 25 seconds 16:25:45 This is on a local filesystem. :P 16:25:46 no that's disable. 16:26:12 I stil lcan't enter colons 16:26:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:26:37 Anyone want to assist me in my systemsurgery? 16:27:09 somerandomentity: I can't imagine what would be required to fix the colon thing, and that's the most annoying. 16:27:20 Or would be to me 16:27:33 Wow, aptitude is taking many seconds and full CPU to start up. Just to update the sources list. 16:27:42 What else is high priority to fix? 16:27:42 This thing needs to win a prize forslowest computer. 16:27:52 Oh, packages 16:27:59 cpressey: The slowness. The GUI. 16:28:00 That will be a good start 16:28:12 Slowness may be incurable too. 16:28:20 Basically, what I want to do right now is move over the safest stuff from the debian chroot to /. 16:28:28 So that at the end, I wil have an almost-pure Debian. 16:28:42 Start with a test package, yeah. 16:28:52 Then I would move the package system over, if possible. 16:28:59 * somerandomentity kills aptitude out of sheer boredom 16:29:15 cpressey: Slowness will not be so incurable, if I stri]p almost all daemons and use the simplest software. 16:29:50 apt-get to dev null takes 0.3-0.4 seconds 16:29:55 simply astonishing 16:29:57 ls is pretty simple. must be a lot of daemons on that thing 16:30:03 and took several seconds first time due to slowest, disk. EVER 16:30:20 * cpressey suspects some kind of extremely cheap, slow disk 16:30:23 cpressey: well, no, but... 16:30:30 every single command is death 16:30:35 firefox 50% cpu. pidgin 23%. 16:30:36 somerandomentity: any USB ports? 16:30:41 get rid of those, significantly faster. 16:30:51 oh my GOD, it's running X 6n the framebuffer 16:30:55 *on 16:30:56 back 16:31:00 yes. tinyirc or something 16:31:06 and using almost 65 of cpu to do it 16:31:07 per cent 16:31:16 cpressey: plus some v. light weight browser -- dillo? 16:31:18 and links, and lose X, and that's a lot more cpu 16:31:20 somerandomentity, i'm not creepy 16:31:24 dillo, if you want to keep X 16:31:26 chincorrect 16:31:31 cheater99: incorrect 16:31:38 cpressey: x would be nice solely for the browser 16:31:50 cpressey: very light x + say, ratpoison or dwm as WM 16:32:39 There is no /etc/fstab. I should remedy that. 16:32:56 ! 16:33:02 Just in the chroot. 16:33:05 It's in the root. 16:33:10 one wonders how it boots up 16:33:16 See above. 16:33:24 Also, I am pretty sure this thing has the kernel tied into the bootloader, so yeah. 16:33:28 The answer is "evilly". 16:33:42 oh, you mean the chroot they supply? 16:33:47 you're working within that? 16:33:50 yaffs2 squashfs, latter in fstab former in mount(1) 16:33:55 No, I mean my debian chroot 16:34:06 oh ok 16:34:07 confused. 16:34:09 n/m 16:34:31 no devfs, lol 16:34:40 somerandomentity, devfs is dead 16:34:43 you mean udev 16:34:50 AnMaster: on ARM? 16:34:52 I think not 16:35:04 somerandomentity, devfs is no longer supported by the kernel iirc 16:35:07 Oh, worryingly there is not the drive in the chroot's /dev 16:35:12 * somerandomentity tries MAKEDEV 16:35:46 MAKEDEV I assume that is how you us it 16:35:55 *use 16:35:59 somerandomentity, no 16:35:59 ls 16:36:10 somerandomentity, you don't put a < there 16:36:14 More things,\ it seems, but of any consequence? 16:36:27 Still, none of this mtdblock1 thing. 16:37:34 Woe,how to get this device? 16:37:41 somerandomentity, mknod 16:37:50 somerandomentity, figure out device number and so on 16:37:53 Fine. Will that persist? 16:37:58 ?? 16:38:04 To file system. 16:38:17 & why is MAKEDEV so uppercasey? 16:38:37 somerandomentity, are you on monospace font? I can't show you how to find device node info otherwise 16:39:10 I can find it with ls, I know. But will mknod persist to ddisk? 16:39:17 yes 16:39:18 ..... 16:39:23 $ ls -l /dev/sda # minor 16:39:24 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 0 29 maj 19.54 /dev/sda 16:39:24 # major 16:39:24 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:39:26 there 16:39:33 the m in each is in the corresponding place 16:39:38 -!- lament has joined. 16:39:44 Just tell me the order... 16:39:50 minor,irrelevant major? 16:39:57 somerandomentity, not at all 16:40:00 somerandomentity, I told you. Switch to monospace font 16:40:05 I won't help you any more than that 16:40:37 How about you just tell me which number is which? I don't care what you want me to do, I don't even know how to make Pidgin switch fonts and i won't install another client because I have no means to. So I will just ask someone else. 16:40:41 cpressey, perhaps? 16:40:45 Or maybe ls(1). 16:41:01 dude, i'm on pidgin too :/ 16:41:12 I eant for the ls info :-) 16:41:19 cpressey, can you switch it to monospace there? 16:41:29 i pasted it into scite and monospaced it 16:41:30 cpressey, just wondering 16:41:33 Wow, "alise is a liar" mode. 16:41:35 You get into that a lot. 16:41:42 it uh, didn't help 16:41:45 You need pills for your incessant paranoia. 16:41:47 somerandomentity, you said you didn't know 16:41:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 16:41:55 not that it wasn't possible 16:42:01 unless you mean "8," is major and "0" is minor 16:42:09 coppro, correct! 16:42:10 err 16:42:12 cpressey, ^ 16:42:15 In which case that is obvious: minor always follows major. 16:42:20 That is sort of the point of those names. 16:42:29 somerandomentity, the third number is date 16:43:06 which in your language has a month named "maj", just to throw in a red herring. 16:43:14 Now do i want a buffered device... I assume so. 16:43:18 cpressey: that's what caught me out 16:43:20 cpressey, XD 16:43:24 cpressey, I didn't think of that 16:43:32 cpressey, and maj = may 16:43:45 cpressey, from when this system either was booted or when it was installed 16:43:46 Disks should be buffered right? 16:43:46 not sure 16:43:53 cpressey, since both happened in may last time 16:44:00 somerandomentity, they are block devices 16:44:09 right 16:44:09 somerandomentity, as indicated by brw-rw---- 16:44:14 somerandomentity, in my example 16:44:25 somerandomentity, first letter b = block device 16:44:30 first letter c = char device 16:44:35 l = symlink 16:44:43 then there is something for fifo and unix sockets 16:44:44 forgot what 16:45:15 There are two things mounted on /! 16:45:19 rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) 16:45:26 /dev/root on / type yaffs2 (rw) 16:45:30 somerandomentity, not surprising at all 16:45:38 somerandomentity, the former will from the initramfs 16:45:56 somerandomentity, which is then overlayed by the real / 16:46:10 Indeed ... but oh! My Debian supports not squashfs :( 16:46:15 Thusly packages I require :-? 16:46:27 That's a questioning :- list strarter, not an emoticon. 16:46:31 I presume so 16:46:46 somerandomentity, but it never said squashfs there 16:47:01 HAH! Lies! Lies, from the Sea of Mount! It tells me, upon its invocation, that verily /dev/root is mounted; but lies! Lies, for it exists not! 16:47:05 I go insane! AHAHAHAHAHAHA--! 16:47:11 AnMaster: Indeed, but the fstab indicated so. 16:47:18 To mount /dev/mtdblock1, squashfs, on /. 16:47:25 somerandomentity, /dev/root is special I think 16:47:32 Special? Like howso? 16:47:46 somerandomentity, like kernel makes it up for initrd 16:47:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 16:47:53 somerandomentity, or some such 16:48:01 "Special device /dev/root does not exist," speaks chroot! Woe! WOE! 16:48:16 .... 16:48:18 AnMaster: Then, lo, what are my chances? Cruel world. 16:48:26 I'll go elsewhere until you figure it out 16:48:31 hmmm 16:48:31 and calm down 16:48:34 you could demake chroot 16:48:39 *remake 16:48:41 AnMaster: calm down? 16:48:46 do you think I am angry...? 16:48:52 use /dev/loop to make /dev/root with black magic. :) 16:48:53 somerandomentity, no I think you are high 16:49:00 * CakeProphet wishes he was high. 16:49:05 Talking to high people is fun 16:49:07 (only figuratively) 16:49:07 alas, job hunting. 16:49:09 or, don't mess with / 16:49:20 Dr. Strangelove, or, don 16:49:24 't mess with / 16:49:42 AHA! /dev/mtdblock2! It masquerades but it is the file system I desire! 16:49:48 it depends on wtf you want to do with this poc 16:49:59 What is this ludocracy, such ludicrouslousness that it contains all the files, not just the linuxrc! LIES, fstab! LIES!----- 16:50:03 It can WORK! 16:50:20 but -- still -- what packages do I need for squashfs support? Could someone google? Internet on this is pain 16:50:29 somerandomentity, yes I wouldn't trust fstab 16:50:31 cpressey: get it running some minimalist jazz and just sorta play with it 16:50:36 somerandomentity, apt-cache search squashfs 16:50:53 apt? Do you realies how glacially slow that thing is on here? 16:50:54 somerandomentity: Did you ever answer: does it have a USB port? 16:51:01 cpressey: yes. 16:51:04 somerandomentity, aptitude then 16:51:06 somerandomentity: run it in background. :P 16:51:08 Use as an FS, thou woult suggest? 16:51:11 AnMaster: Slower, you fool. 16:51:21 somerandomentity, synaptic? XD 16:51:22 * somerandomentity typos aptitude 16:51:25 aptiDUDE. 16:51:33 AnMaster: PACKAGEKIT AND UBUNTU SOFTWARE CENTRE 16:51:41 somerandomentity, XF 16:51:43 XD* 16:51:44 dpkg 16:51:50 I'd plug in an external drive, flash even, and turn off the software running on it, but not try to mess with the fs it's on. too risky. 16:51:52 dselect 16:51:53 yum! 16:51:58 python 16:52:00 but that's me 16:52:02 it's the most efficient. 16:52:05 rpm 16:52:09 rtfm 16:52:16 cpressey: eh :P 16:52:17 man rtfm 16:52:25 Whatever Slackware's package managver is installed! 16:52:26 somerandomentity, emerg! 16:52:27 emerge* 16:52:45 okay that would be hilariously slow on that shit 16:53:04 portage! 16:53:07 just open a python shell 16:53:11 cpressey, yes that is what emerge is from 16:53:12 and then use it as a web browser 16:53:26 the world is saved. 16:53:33 CakeProphet, w3m-mode in emacs! 16:53:37 Lo, some wise traveller, please speak unto me these things ; such that by their using I could utilise my squashed file system on Debian ; these packages. 16:53:50 ... 16:54:04 I'd probably just ditch it. 16:54:21 The Googol-faced prophet! Search, please search, O... 16:54:36 !google Googol-faced prophet 16:54:39 http://google.com/search?q=Googol-faced+prophet 16:54:45 apt-get update has never been so slow 16:55:08 apt-get remove computer 16:55:09 done. 16:55:15 45 KiB/s on ethernet 16:55:22 what on earth is this thing doing to slow it down so much? 16:55:54 maybe Ted Stevenes was right about the internet. 16:56:38 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 16:57:42 somerandomentity: test youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13HM-bmKW2U 16:57:48 no way 16:58:29 ! There are multiple squashfse! Geez 16:59:45 What did you expect, sanity and consistency? Pshaw. 16:59:53 I mean packages. 16:59:55 Not this computer. 17:00:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:00:32 I mean that too. 17:01:00 cpressey: hihi 17:01:04 erm 17:01:05 ais523: hihi 17:01:09 ais523: remember that godawful netbook? 17:01:26 It was fixed, and I'm breaking it again! 17:01:27 which one? 17:01:35 ais523: the 7inch screen arm one 17:01:39 with horrible root only debian etc 17:01:42 ah, no I don't 17:01:45 and the fucked up bootloader 17:01:59 ais523: on my birthday i came on first on it? 17:02:03 got you all to guess what it was? 17:02:08 proceeded to try and get debian on it? 17:02:11 14th birthday iirc. 17:02:21 nah, obviously I wasn't paying attention 17:02:39 ais523: you did though! 17:02:50 but anyway, its system is a horribly mangled debian, and it forces me to irc and internet as root 17:02:52 anyway, can we have a better topic? 17:02:53 you're good at them 17:02:58 i have a working debian chroot 17:03:05 oh, I'm starting to remember now 17:03:10 i'm trying to surgeryify it into the main system 17:03:16 and it explains the ~root@ in your whois data 17:03:17 while fighting with the linuxrc craziness and bootloader 17:03:20 ubiSsurfer 17:03:23 *ubisurfer 17:03:27 with that horrible ie-screenshot gprs browser 17:03:51 Anyway, this is the state of play. Do you know which squashfs package I want? There are multiple for some reason, for different systems. 17:03:54 ais523: we need optbot back 17:03:57 it always set nice topics 17:04:24 t 17:04:35 and I have no idea which squashfs package is better than which other 17:04:43 they seem to all be for different systems 17:04:50 optbot was our first babble bot :) 17:05:05 This all makes me want my own atavistic netbook that I have to try to rehabilitate. 17:05:12 hi ais523 17:05:17 hi AnMaster 17:05:28 -!- tombom has joined. 17:05:30 cpressey: this thing is under 200 pounds, so you can have your enjoyment for only many weeks worth of food 17:05:54 It's a netbook, I damn well hope it weighs less than 200 pounds! HAHAHA 17:06:02 * cpressey bans himself 17:06:11 cpressey: bad puns are oerjan's job! 17:06:18 cpressey: i knew you'd do that 17:06:18 besides, he's better at them 17:06:44 I should really get around to putting some of my esolangs up on the wiki... 17:06:55 and implementing them, and defining syntax 17:07:06 It's a netbook, I damn well hope it weighs less than 200 pounds! HAHAHA <-- ? 17:07:13 ais523: Yes, you should. You might, in fact, be 4th. 17:07:37 In terms of sheer number of designs. 17:07:43 AnMaster: "pound" = "GBP/pound sterling", a unit of currency, and also an imperial unit of weight 17:07:50 ais523, I know 17:07:57 I was answering your ? 17:08:11 ais523, I don't get the joke still 17:08:21 `calc 200 pounds in kilograms 17:08:27 ~100 17:08:31 AnMaster: netbooks are tiny 17:08:32 No output. 17:08:32 yup, a bit less 17:08:32 Deewiant, ah, okay 17:08:35 THEN I get the joke 17:08:38 `google 200 pounds in kilograms 17:08:39 hmm, AnMaster may be autistic 17:08:40 No output. 17:08:40 cpressey, I don't do imperial units 17:08:42 ... or not 17:08:54 1kg ~ 17:08:56 AnMaster: 1 pound ~= 0.5 kg 17:08:58 = 2.2 poounds iirc 17:09:00 1 kg ~= 2.2lb 17:09:01 *pounds 17:09:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:10:15 pikhq! A sysadmin! Just what we need 17:10:16 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:11:03 hmm, a spambot pretending to be a girl that fancied me 17:11:14 even better than the real thing! 17:11:21 but it was obviously a spambot, due to hiding the To: line and BCCing me, and putting about fifty newlines between every line 17:12:43 pikhq: Have you ever installed Linux ... on ACID^W ARM? 17:13:47 Who is this random entity? 17:13:59 And no, I have never installed Linux upon an ARM. 17:14:03 Not obvious? 17:14:15 Entity number too big to list. Please request more specific information. 17:14:31 I shall guess a one Elliot Hird. 17:14:36 Wrong. 17:14:53 pikhq: stop accusing random people of being ehird 17:15:00 I know it's a national sport for this channel, but still... 17:15:04 No, *I* am ehird 17:15:05 ais523: but he'd be right if he did that ..... 17:15:06 XD 17:15:19 Just not 'Elliot' hird 17:15:36 ehird, then. 17:15:37 heh, I missed the misspelling 17:15:51 ais523: did you not realise? 17:15:59 nah, I realised it was you 17:16:06 but for some reason I thought you wanted to pretend to not be you 17:16:17 the signs were all there, after all 17:16:20 Yes; because cheater99 is creepy 17:16:26 even the IP address starting in 9, which I use as a sanity check 17:16:39 ais523: thatwon't work post-move :-) 17:16:52 might do by chance 17:16:56 alise is creepy 17:16:58 Do you remember everybody's IP address's first octet? 17:17:04 Deewiant: no 17:17:10 ais523: unlikely 17:17:14 but I whois somerandomentity so often that it would be hard not to remember 17:17:20 XD 17:17:21 heh 17:17:23 my whois is so interesting 17:17:33 hmm, AnMaster may be autistic <-- no 17:17:50 not as such 17:18:07 possibly everyone in here has some traits of it though 17:18:11 to some degree 17:18:19 well, sort of. 17:19:14 AnMaster: pretty much everyone in the universe does 17:20:36 pikhq: Well, want to help do so? 17:20:59 I have Debian in a chroot, and a horribly mangled Debian outside with some linuxrc crazy bootloading thing ran by a bootloader that seems to keep the kernel in firmware. 17:21:17 ais523, mhm 17:21:18 pikhq: I wish to perform surgery to extract the Debian as much as possible to the outer system, and remove the outer system. 17:21:23 pikhq: Think you can help? 17:23:20 I don't think this black magic is going to go anyways. 17:23:22 *anywhere 17:24:10 Netbook, I'm going to reprogram you with a rather large axe, got it? 17:24:59 CakeProphet: it already runs debian 17:25:08 what is so strange about changing this debian for a new debian? 17:26:23 Hmm. 17:26:59 cpressey: H2G2 misquote? 17:27:14 somerandomentity: chroot into your chroot, mount the old root. Remove all the outer system. debootstrap. 17:27:33 pikhq: Already debootstraped into a chroot. 17:27:45 Yes, but not the outer system. 17:27:52 I cannot erase the outer system completely, for its linuxrc and prorgams and firmware containing kernels are much insane. 17:28:12 I can only migrate the userspace stuff to this Debian piece-by-piece. 17:28:13 One can retain the linuxrc and the kernel; debootstrap shan't install those, anyways. 17:28:31 Listen, last time I} replaced stuff it couldn't mount various filesystems or something and trefusewd to boot.he bootloader 17:28:39 So I'm doing this slowly, for fear of bricking it again. 17:29:12 rsync from inner to outer, with that option to make rsync not delete things? 17:29:32 And retain all the vicious insanity prese\nt in this system? I intend to do it quite manually. 17:30:10 wow, SCO vs. Novell just finished altogether 17:30:17 all the remaining points to decide were ruled in Novell's favour 17:30:32 but they can appeal again, presumably 17:30:37 also, the judges must find it hilarious 17:30:41 they're getting paid to repeatedly say "no" 17:31:00 somerandomentity: the thing is, they already appealed and won the appeal 17:31:17 and lost the retrail 17:31:18 *retrial 17:31:18 so if they want to appeal again, they'll have to argue the opposite of what they argued last time 17:31:23 admittedly, I think they might actually do that, but it would be hilarious 17:32:13 xD 17:32:45 wow, SCO vs. Novell just finished altogether <-- are SCO going to try to get that overruled? 17:32:52 ais523: "misquote" sounds so ugly. I prefer "riffing on" 17:33:11 AnMaster: they haven't said they will yet 17:33:17 that doesn't mean they won't, ofc 17:33:18 ais523, hm 17:33:46 so if they want to appeal again, they'll have to argue the opposite of what they argued last time <-- ? what why? 17:34:21 AnMaster: basically because their last appeal, plus the current trial, adds up to "based on SCO's own arguments, SCO loses" 17:34:33 ais523, hm 17:34:37 ais523, so...? 17:34:54 AnMaster: there is no remotely sane way that SCO can get out of this one 17:35:00 ais523, well yes 17:35:01 I'm looking forwards to whatever completely insane way they try 17:35:04 SCO needs to disappear 17:35:04 ais523, but are they going to try? 17:35:10 AnMaster: I have no idea 17:35:14 Like, 10 years ago,. 17:35:32 cpressey: they're no longer a credible threat at this point, but they do provide good entertainment 17:37:25 "While some of you are no doubt perfectly comfortable with solving second order differential equations in order to understand a joke in a webcomic, I'm going to assume that most of you would rather hear the good stuff. " 17:37:36 from the annotation on irregular webcomic today 17:37:37 XD 17:39:59 OK, first idea: mv /lib /lib_bak, cp -R /debian/lib /lib 17:40:11 Test various programs. 17:40:18 somerandomentity, do not reboot while it is that way 17:40:21 Manually copy X11 libs from /lib_bak to /lib or something. 17:40:27 If all works, reboot. 17:40:31 Good, bad idea? 17:40:32 somerandomentity, no! 17:40:33 somerandomentity: is /usr/bin built statically? 17:40:37 cpressey, BAD idea 17:40:42 err 17:40:43 somerandomentity, ^ 17:40:46 AnMaster: Whyso? 17:40:59 if /usr/bin loads so's from /usr/lib you could be quite fucked 17:41:01 somerandomentity, because linuxrc might need it. 17:41:06 lib not usrlib 17:41:14 AnMaster: I diffed the two listings 17:41:18 very few differ except X11 libs 17:41:29 and the ones that do differ aprat from x11 are... sound libs 17:41:30 somerandomentity, different versions 17:41:31 and shit 17:41:42 AnMaster: i doubt linuxrc is /as/ crazy as you expect 17:41:43 anyway bbl 17:41:44 well, that sounds like stuff you could afford to lose. but still 17:42:03 live recovery disk, if you have one, would be really nice 17:42:21 OK then, what CAN I replace?! 17:42:29 Your laptop 17:42:35 I can't stay stopped forever for the fear that linuxrc won't work. 17:42:35 17:42:43 Deewiant: I have a perfectly good laptop, this is just fun! 17:42:50 Like a puzzle, you know? But with tangible rewards and a realistic setting. 17:43:16 somerandomentity: Do you have some sort of "re-install the operating system" function on that thing? 17:43:28 Yes\, it 17:43:35 's called "send back to manufacturer" 17:43:58 There is a reason I want to do this slowly :-) 17:44:02 Darn. Was hoping for an alt partition with compressed install disks or soemthing. My old laptop at home has one of those 17:44:13 Well, 17:44:23 I can only say what I would do 17:44:53 somerandomentity, do not replace, add 17:45:07 somerandomentity, as in, add the missing parts, but don't touch existing 17:45:24 Well, there is more present that there should not be, than is absent but should be present. 17:45:26 #1 would be to have a live usb thing you can boot off of, in case you fux0r sh1t up 17:45:32 But that's work 17:45:33 I want something clean, not this shitpile. 17:45:46 cpressey: bootloader won't boot to anything else remembner? 17:45:46 does it have a serial port? 17:45:54 #2 would be to get rid of X, for now, with plans to re-install it sanely later 17:45:57 if so, you could try getting the serial console working on boot 17:46:27 somerandomentity, hack the boot loader? 17:46:33 somerandomentity: Forgot. Then I would be very careful about touching anything that the boot sequence even might rely on it 17:46:36 cpressey: I am not even sure this thing has consoles. 17:46:38 somerandomentity, it must be somewhere 17:46:47 AnMaster: in ROM perhaps. 17:46:50 Probably even. 17:46:53 somerandomentity, hm 17:46:58 somerandomentity, not EEPROM? 17:47:05 well, you're not going to be able to change the ROM, probably 17:47:15 ais523, you could hack the bus 17:47:18 even if it's EEPROM, what's the chance that there'll be a program to flash it available? 17:47:25 and redirect it to something else 17:47:37 whatever is cheapest, it will be that. 17:47:43 also, do you even own a JTAG cable? it's how those things are normally flashed on systems where they don't expect the user to be able to flash it from software 17:47:52 ctrl-alt-f# doesn't work 17:47:55 somerandomentity: probably old-fashioned PROM then 17:47:55 does this thing even have consoles? 17:47:56 Finding if there is a console would be good. 17:48:07 somerandomentity, check /etc/inittab 17:48:07 somerandomentity: can you do ls /dev 17:48:11 It would not be uncheap to have a console, reusing existing video hw etc 17:48:16 somerandomentity, and see if there are any in it 17:48:27 Or try killing XC 17:48:27 somerandomentity, lines like: 17:48:29 c1:2345:respawn:/sbin/agetty -8 38400 tty1 linux 17:48:29 c2:2345:respawn:/sbin/agetty -8 38400 tty2 linux 17:48:29 *X 17:48:31 see if you can find vcs1 in it 17:48:39 AnMaster: getty clearly isn't running 17:48:43 I will try killing X. Good first step. 17:48:48 ais523, well maybe they are commented out! 17:48:53 no agetty, but busybox getty 17:49:02 somerandomentity, hm 17:49:19 baud_rate wow :) 17:49:21 well, busybox getty is sane 17:49:50 it works! and they even added a welcome message from The PocketSurfer Team lol 17:50:15 ah, I was about to suggest trying to create character device 7, 1 17:50:20 and seeing if you could read from it 17:50:23 they call it PocketSurfer linux. "Thanks for choosing DataWind!" 17:50:29 it's the "screenshot from tty1" device 17:50:57 ok, this is insane 17:51:08 somerandomentity: I take it you're IRCing from your main laptop? 17:51:12 logging in as root makes it try and start X and whatnot 17:51:18 ais523: no way 17:51:22 this is hardcore shit 17:51:31 how did you kill X and yet stay on IRC? 17:51:36 i didn't kill x 17:51:39 ah 17:51:49 what worked, then? 17:51:52 i cran getty and now it is trying to start things because that is whoginut in the root lhey pat t 17:52:11 oh, I see 17:52:16 it's root's login shell that starts X? 17:52:20 that... is pretty broken 17:53:17 You say broken, I say elegant, my friend. 17:53:30 it's more mindboggling than anything 17:54:06 SCO argues that it is entitled to judgment as a matter of law "because the verdict cannot be squared with the overwhelming evidence and the law."11 The Court respectfully disagrees. 17:54:30 Holy shit, this thing uses ash! 17:54:36 It seems root's login is the init script 17:54:42 But there is no login file ... so confusing 17:54:58 O, tis /etc/profile! 17:55:01 such gaudy insanity 17:55:08 edit it so that X don't start 17:55:22 ... pilgrim 17:55:41 so it's /everyone's/ login shell that starts X? 17:55:43 even better 17:56:05 Not just elegance, but nigh god-like elegance. 17:56:49 It is true that SCO presented more witnesses who testified that it was the intent of the parties to transfer the copyrights as part of the deal but, as the jury was instructed, the number of witnesses is not determinative. 17:56:59 you have to love some of SCO's arguments 17:57:48 ais523: So, uh... What I am going to do is, replace the X-starting things with gettys, and install irssi in the debian chroot. 17:58:08 Rock on, somerandomentity. 17:58:08 putting getty in everyone's login shell is surely just as wrong 17:58:10 Then I will have a shell, not an interactive torture device. 17:58:14 but OK 17:58:38 ais523: hmm you are right, that will not even work 17:58:48 for it will run on every login 17:58:54 but there is no init outside of linuxrc, it seems 17:58:55 wouldn't it create infinitely recursive login terminals? 17:59:12 hmm, is /tmp wiped on every boot? 17:59:21 you could create a file in /tmp to say that you'd already created the gettys 17:59:26 and thus had no need to create them again 18:00:05 W O W, this thing ships with GNASH 18:00:26 does GNASH actually work yet? 18:00:42 oh there is an init.d hmm no indication that it works though 18:00:51 ais523: its Gnash I was just emphasising 18:00:53 and yes, bt barely 18:00:55 no youtube for tanceins 18:00:56 instances 18:01:27 btw, someone reimplemented Flash in JS 18:01:45 yes and canvas/html5 18:01:46 presumably rather slowly 18:01:51 it's actually rather good. 18:01:58 ok, it ALSO has an inittab 18:02:47 * somerandomentity enables some gettys in the inittab to see if it will work 18:02:58 no wait that'll init twice 18:03:00 grr 18:03:12 would you guys be able to help more with an ssh connection? :P 18:03:58 I'd feel better if there were little notes of horror scattered by the devs around the system 18:04:16 somerandomentity: is there any way you can post it to the daily WTF? 18:04:17 "boss says it has to be this way" "oh god why" "This is insane, but then so is everything else." 18:04:19 or is it not /that/ bad 18:04:24 ais523: I'll send it in the mail 18:04:38 somerandomentity: but then you'd no longer own it 18:04:48 they could send it back, i guess 18:05:59 ais523: want to poke around the ssh of this thing? It'd be amusing, if nothing else. 18:06:03 haha, SCO tried more than once to argue that they had the better case because they had numerically more witnesses 18:06:20 somerandomentity: you trust me enough to do that? 18:06:31 Are you surprised? 18:06:36 ais523: I think you're probably one of the most trustworthy people alive outside of nomic. 18:06:38 You're not exactly known to be malicious 18:06:47 Also, I don't exactly care too much about this machine. 18:06:57 somerandomentity: I'm trustworthy in nomic too, just with a different and very pedantic definition 18:07:13 Yes, well. :P 18:07:20 Okay, so now I get to figure out how to enable ssh 18:07:36 You can just be root, I don't feel like battlin]g with this to add a new user 18:07:45 Does ssh run a login shell? 18:08:04 yes 18:08:39 Can you make it not? 18:09:17 ooh, it seems possible looking at the docs 18:09:36 what's the specific version of the shell over there 18:09:51 as in, busybox ash? debian ash? 18:10:31 how can I} tell? It just says invalid option for -h and -? 18:10:38 try --version 18:10:41 --help 18:10:42 and man might not be reliable, this is crazy 18:10:53 failing that, try which sh 18:10:57 busybox shell 18:10:58 and seeing if the result is a symlink or not 18:11:03 1.13.2 18:11:09 2009 feb 18:11:20 no help available apparently 18:11:31 not even in man busybox over here 18:11:34 most of the commands have docs 18:11:45 ill see if -l doest he crazy 18:11:45 but ash's documentation is "ash ash #define ash_full_usage" 18:12:04 can you try running ash -i, followed by ps? 18:12:15 and verifying that the resulting shell is called "busybox" or "ash" in the ps listing? 18:13:06 sh -l does crazy, sh doesn't 18:13:10 so can you make ssh not do a logi nshell 18:13:30 yep, instead of telling it to start a shell 18:13:38 you tell it to run a particular command that happens to be a shell 18:13:42 right 18:13:43 and get a non-login shell that way 18:13:47 so i will start ssh and open the port 18:13:54 umm, and tell only you the port 18:14:01 wait, nmap 18:14:11 adding a password would be too much fuss 18:14:17 suggested security method? port should be fine 18:14:21 who would nmap it? 18:14:38 Well, good luck, you two. I gotta be off. 18:14:43 bye 18:14:44 Adieu. 18:14:46 do coem back! 18:14:48 *come 18:14:50 I'll try :) 18:14:54 I think I know why that thing isn't running sshd by default 18:14:56 -!- cpressey has left (?). 18:15:04 i don't even know that that is true 18:15:09 it is in /etc/rc.d and should be rubnning ssh 18:15:17 well, there's no obvious way to authenticate a login 18:15:38 a crazy method would involve writing your own PAM plugin that requires a password only remotely an has nothing to do with the user 18:15:52 alternatively, you could accept connections only from my public IP, that would likely work 18:15:59 assuming you have a clever enough firewall 18:16:07 /etc/init.d/ssh cant run no lsb functions :-) 18:16:13 * somerandomentity starts ssh manually 18:17:16 ssh or sshd? 18:17:37 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:17:56 can i give sshd a rudimentary password thing 18:17:59 -!- relet has joined. 18:18:02 thta it requires before all connections? 18:18:04 ais523: sshd 18:18:33 hmm, not sure 18:18:40 it seems this laptop doesn't actually have sshd installed 18:18:43 nor its manpage 18:23:01 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:29:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:31:00 ais523: ping 18:31:07 my dns appears to be nonfunctional >.< 18:31:12 pong 18:31:23 and why not change it to a different DNS server? 18:31:33 my resolv.conf is f\ine .. what can i d6/ 18:31:33 or is it the DNS client at your end that's broken? 18:31:38 ais523: ok, gimme a good dns server 18:31:46 4.2.2.1 18:31:46 opendns will do, or that ... 10.4.4.n thing 18:31:48 or whatever it is 18:31:50 yeah that 18:32:12 or you could try google's at 8.8.8.8 18:32:21 but I trust a random company I've never heard of more than google 18:32:31 there must be something wrong with me 18:32:38 oh, 4.2.2.1 is run by backbone guys i think 18:32:44 or at leats some really big telecom company 18:32:51 and i definitely do not trust google with my dns 18:33:28 any dsns client thing i have to flush? 18:34:16 it's a really big telecom company, Level3 18:34:31 you have not heard of level3? 18:34:33 astonishing 18:34:51 heh this thing is completely solid state so you only know it's struggling becaues of the little cpu indicator 18:34:53 in the tray 18:35:19 I've only heard of Level3 because of the DNS 18:36:18 well, you deend on them for access to the internet. At some point, most likely 18:36:20 *depend 18:36:37 iirc they maintain a few root dns servers, and many many many things utilies their network 18:37:03 but seri\ously, what do i gotta flush 18:37:15 Nothing unless you're running some kind of DNS cache 18:37:35 then why it no worky 18:38:53 :< 18:39:37 I am sad, like a sad thing. 18:39:50 -!- relet has left (?). 18:40:30 ais523: perhaps a dns client issue then? 18:40:39 maybe 18:41:01 Ill try rebooting 18:41:06 YOU MAY NOT SEE ME EVER AgAIN 18:43:30 -!- somerandomentity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:45:09 -!- alissed has joined. 18:45:23 ais523: you know the time, you know the place, something that rhymes, to save the human race. 18:45:31 Less obscurely, you can connect now. I think. 18:45:44 I'm missing several relevant pieces of info 18:45:48 should I use the IP in your whois? 18:45:55 actually, that's the main one 18:46:04 Why not try and see? 18:46:09 What are the other pieces of info? 18:46:18 I was going to say port, but we agreed that alreayd 18:46:41 Do tell if it works. 18:46:46 it mostly works 18:46:58 there's no prompt, though 18:46:58 not even if I set PS1 18:46:58 although I get responses to commands 18:47:15 hmm 18:47:19 what sh option do i need? 18:47:37 no idea 18:47:43 wow, I can't type capital P in the terminal either 18:47:53 also, ls isn't outputting in columns, making it rather hard to use 18:48:03 hmm, nc just ended 18:48:04 ais523: attempt now 18:48:12 exited immediately 18:48:23 oh so it did 18:48:24 hmm 18:48:44 bleh 18:48:50 what options does busybox sh have, could you look it up? 18:48:57 no, there is bash 18:49:11 ais523: now, try 18:49:38 still no prompt, otherwise working 18:49:49 I can do without a prompt, I'm just wondering wtf is going on 18:49:58 aha, wait 18:50:13 are the prompts being shown on your screen? 18:50:46 try now 18:50:48 yes 18:51:00 exiting immediately 18:51:05 ffff 18:51:10 (presumably, anything going to stderr goes to your screen, anytthing going to stdout goes to mine) 18:51:31 no, stderr is not being seen 18:51:35 try now 18:52:52 no prompt 18:53:05 set PS1 18:53:08 if I send to stderr, i get the output 18:53:17 setting PS1 did nothing 18:53:34 you know what, I'll connect myself 18:53:55 busybox claims it has telnetd compiled in 18:54:12 you'd have to run it as "busybox telnetd" if there isn't a symlink, though 18:54:29 If there's no prompt, the shell might be in the non-interactive mode. 18:55:04 interactive mode doesnt work though 18:55:05 hmm, good point 18:55:23 what if I try to start an interactive shell from the noninteractive shell? 18:55:26 ais523: telnet in 18:55:50 it went mad 18:55:55 howso 18:56:01 I'll pastebin 18:56:12 or just summarise 18:56:21 SHIT 18:56:23 ITS THE INIT 18:56:31 yep, thought it might be 18:56:35 hahaha fuck you windows EVERYWHERE :D 18:56:46 I got a fatal X error, saying it already ran 18:56:49 two battery indicators fuck yeah 18:56:53 then started IceWM 18:57:04 which exited because it was already running 18:57:18 okay try now 18:57:19 OTOH, I now have a shell that works 18:57:27 nothing now 18:57:39 nothing? 18:57:47 connection closed by foreign host 18:57:49 instantly 18:58:10 try now 18:58:27 sa,e 18:58:29 *same 18:58:53 ff 18:59:49 ais523: now?! 19:00:00 still the same 19:00:08 failing that we'll go back to nc + starting interactive 19:00:35 nc in now 19:00:43 and run bash -i 19:01:05 yay prompt 19:01:24 and it's taking a noticeable amount of time, maybe around 200ms, to reply to trivial commands like echo 19:01:51 ais523: hmm 19:01:57 ais523: it's possible this thing is just slow 19:01:59 is it usable enough? 19:02:01 also, less and more aren't waiting for paging, they're just outputting the whole thing 19:02:04 it's usable, though 19:02:07 ok 19:02:09 not sure what to use it /for/, though 19:02:19 Well, I guess, just try and figure it out. 19:02:49 /debian is my chroot. /etc/init.d has stuff, /etc/inittab too. /etc/profile is the devil. 19:02:57 / is... root. 19:03:02 hmm, at least reading /etc/profile explains the insanity 19:03:08 it's echoing PATH after it sets it 19:03:13 So, the question is: How does this system really work? And how can I surgeryify /debian into it? 19:03:17 which explains why telnet blurted out the path for no apparent reason 19:03:17 also, what the hell is linuxrc? 19:04:05 is /linuxrc text or binary? 19:04:13 I'm not sure how to tell with the commands on there, other than trying to look at it 19:04:26 binary, ELF 19:04:34 ais523: you may want to chroot into /debian 19:04:40 anyway, linuxrc seems to be a SuSE thing 19:04:43 it has modern utilities, like nano and vi and a good shell 19:04:50 and /mnt/poop is the root 19:04:53 ais523: no, its definitely debian 19:04:57 i think 19:05:02 this machine is most certainly debian 19:05:17 aha, it's the bootloader for the SUSE installer 19:05:22 haha what 19:05:25 oh i see 19:05:26 not copied in 19:05:29 just, suse uses it 19:05:31 the docs say you can use it as a bootloader for an installed system too if you really want to 19:05:32 it seems to be initrd or something 19:05:36 common in embedded devices i guess 19:05:39 yes 19:05:45 its not just a suse thing 19:05:47 http://en.opensuse.org/Linuxrc 19:05:56 ais523: anyway, use the /debian chroot; it is far more pleasant 19:06:08 I thought I was supposed to be helping you figure out how the system was so insane? 19:06:16 of course 19:06:18 if I chroot out of the insane bit, I just get a standard debian 19:06:19 but you can do that with sane tools 19:06:20 nope 19:06:26 /mnt/poop 19:06:31 hmm, you mean I should chroot to debian, then break the chroot? 19:06:33 Mount Poop, the most dreaded of mountains 19:06:37 ais523: basically, yes 19:06:44 look in /mnt/poop, inspect with high-tech tools 19:06:49 wow, "cd /" took almost half a second 19:06:57 archaeologists don't use primitive tools to examine their samples 19:07:39 whoops, exited netcat by mistake 19:07:42 -!- alissed has left (?). 19:07:50 hmm, that's a bad sign 19:08:19 -!- alissed has joined. 19:08:21 "linuxrc parameters are case-insensitive and you can add as many hyphens, underscores, or dots as you want." 19:08:24 alissed: whoops 19:08:27 ais523: try now 19:09:11 it's working fine, except /mnt/poop seems to be empty 19:09:14 despite being mounted 19:09:23 "/dev/mtdblock2 on /mnt/poop type yaffs2 (rw)" 19:10:09 hmm 19:10:16 umount it and remoutn it, then 19:10:18 *remount 19:11:01 what's the command to mount? 19:11:06 take a guess 19:11:06 it needs a few settings I can't remember offhand 19:11:16 mount -t yaffs2 /dev/mtdblock2 /mnt/poop 19:11:19 "mount: you must specify the filesystem type" 19:11:21 and I can't remember how 19:11:22 ah 19:11:34 ah, that's better 19:12:29 hmm, /etc/install.inf, linuxrc's config file, seems not to exist 19:12:46 its not that kind of linuxrc afaik 19:12:58 it seems plausible that it would be 19:13:05 ais523: hey can you start icewm --replace in the background plz? 19:13:08 kinda without a wm here 19:13:21 icewm: command not found 19:13:25 presumably because I'm inside the chroot 19:13:41 well, exit temporarily then plz :P 19:13:46 no disown btw so youd need nohup 19:13:54 oh, didn't nohup it 19:14:01 yay, thank you 19:14:06 done 19:14:12 thx 19:16:23 whoops, exited by mistake again 19:16:33 the real problem with nc is that it exists on things like ^C and ^D 19:16:39 rather than sending them into the inside shell 19:17:15 hmm 19:17:48 ais523: well, feel free to try and get telnetd working inside :P 19:17:51 it should work now 19:18:01 anyway, I'm just unsure which part I should migrate from /debian first. 19:18:09 Or even what init it is using. 19:18:14 linuxrc holds the key, but how to inspect it? 19:18:31 take its SHA1 hash, then google it 19:18:42 nobody else uses this thing 19:19:08 correct, no results 19:19:19 pity, I thought that was actually a decent idea for finding executables 19:19:32 maybe we could look at it 19:20:03 file isn't installed, either on the inside or the outside chroot 19:20:18 so install it :) 19:20:22 use apt-get, not aptitude 19:20:27 aptitude takes minutes to start 19:20:30 literally 19:20:53 * ais523 sets PS1 to a sensible value 19:21:18 hmm, apt-get is also far from instant 19:21:23 the thing seems to be rather slow 19:21:36 well, its a few hundred mhz arm with 128 megs of ram or so 19:21:40 with x11 and pidgin running 19:21:53 wall doesn't seem to work 19:22:01 would be nice to be able to communicate in-shell 19:22:01 ptys seem not to work altogether 19:22:09 in the chroot or outside? 19:22:12 in 19:22:23 because /dev/pts doesn't exist inside the chroot 19:22:25 does it exist outside? 19:22:31 oh i can create that 19:22:40 ah, yes 19:22:44 done 19:22:50 did that wall work 19:22:54 no 19:22:58 hmm 19:23:05 oops, I've started wall and now have no way to exit it 19:23:09 could you kill my wall process? 19:23:23 yes, sec 19:23:24 (^C and ^D both kill the outside netcat) 19:23:34 no kiillall so i have to mount proc to use ps to find the id 19:23:59 thankis 19:24:00 *thanks 19:24:04 "sh: [4080: 1] tcsetattr: Invalid argument" 19:24:19 ais523: im echoing to ptses 19:24:20 is it working 19:24:27 as well as not pressing control-anything, I now also have to remember to use heredocs 19:24:31 and no 19:24:58 hmm, /dev/pts is quite a bit smaller than /mnt/poop/dev/pts 19:25:03 -!- augur has joined. 19:25:28 on a scale of one to ten, how weird is it to be talking technically about a directory called poop when i was just test-mounting it? 19:25:30 maybe i should rename it 19:25:36 ais523: i saw that 19:25:38 only about 3, i know you 19:25:44 ah, that was pty 1 19:25:49 try 5 if you're aiming for me 19:25:56 input output error, alas 19:25:59 messaging to 0 works 19:26:06 what about 4? 19:26:08 how did you do it? 19:26:10 it's likely to be one of the high-numbered ones 19:26:13 and I echoed to 1 19:26:13 all except 0 and 1 which is me 19:26:25 see that? 19:26:29 no 19:26:31 hmm 19:26:38 oh, ofc 19:26:40 I'm not in a pty at all 19:26:43 right 19:26:47 what ARE you in anyway? 19:26:52 just a pipe 19:27:00 and not a named one either 19:27:10 y 19:27:13 I tried running script to create a pty 19:27:18 and got "openpty failed" 19:27:27 try it in /mnt/poop 19:27:33 chroots tend to not like doing such things 19:27:38 oh, unchroot? 19:27:39 using the mntpoop binary 19:27:45 ais523: or that 19:27:56 I wrote "exit" and it exited every level at once 19:28:02 and dropped me back to my own shell 19:28:03 ais523: incidentally, bit of history: both devs are static 19:28:06 also,heh 19:28:15 no idea why it did that 19:28:19 oh i could install ssh in the chroot 19:28:23 you could escape it anyjway 19:28:51 yes, but that's a pain 19:28:59 ais523: why? 19:29:03 "chroot /mnt/poop" would have been enough 19:29:03 we use thechroot anyway 19:29:06 but then I'd be inside two nested chroots 19:29:10 so? 19:29:10 in opposite directions 19:29:15 so that's ridiculous 19:29:25 so is everything else about this machine 19:29:58 ais523: is this the only machine to use both busybox and firefox? 19:30:06 probably not 19:30:16 my laptop has busybox installed, after all 19:30:35 but i mean using busybox primarily 19:30:45 installing opensshd 19:31:38 ais523: what do yout hink would be the safest thingt o move out of the chroot first? 19:31:53 My phone uses busybox primarily, and does have Firefox (well, Fennec... but it's related). 19:31:54 I say, just change the init script to boot into the chroot 19:32:10 and ignore the surrounding level of insanity 19:32:26 ais523: oh, but that's just a chroot, not a real boy!^Winstall! 19:32:38 you disconnected 19:32:40 nc started again 19:33:08 (Or is it even "Firefox Mobile" officially? I think it is.) 19:34:22 and ignore the surrounding level of insanity 19:34:27 ? 19:34:29 stupid client 19:34:43 alissed: can I write a shellscript into /root inside the chroot? 19:34:53 that sets PS1 to a sane value? 19:35:03 it'd save having to copy it over all the time 19:35:14 ais523: certainly. 19:36:13 argh, /no/ control code works 19:36:17 not even control-X to exit nano 19:36:33 could I have a process kill again? I'll use ed, that should work 19:36:37 assuming it's installed 19:36:46 ais523: try sshing now 19:36:48 as root 19:37:14 which port? 19:37:20 same 19:37:31 connection refused 19:38:17 hnn 19:38:18 hmm 19:38:23 can chroots start network connections in the host 19:38:24 ? 19:38:45 oh mwhoops 19:38:50 I don't see why not 19:39:01 try now 19:39:02 although nc is currently using the same port 19:39:10 no, I undid that 19:39:26 it wants a password, and won't accept the null string 19:39:35 i'll set one 19:39:41 that could be a bad idea 19:39:46 why 19:39:47 because then you might not be able to boot 19:39:56 its a chroot. 19:39:57 given the insanity of the boot process 19:40:00 oh, inside the chroot 19:40:01 ofc 19:40:13 password is the most common algebraic placeholder variable 19:40:43 for some reason, /root/.bashrc is not running 19:40:49 just run that instead of your ps1-setter 19:41:22 hmm a pty error 19:41:34 "PTY allocation request failed on channel 0" 19:41:42 nothing inside the chroot can create ptys, it seems 19:41:52 -!- b3n4dd1 has joined. 19:41:52 probably you're missing something in /dev 19:42:01 IIRC, that's how you create ptys, you ask a pty-creation device for one 19:42:14 i linked the chroot pts to the outside one 19:42:32 still fails 19:43:22 what sort of link, hardlink? 19:43:22 can you hardlink a directory? 19:43:30 symlink, which is why i suspect it fails 19:43:32 and it depends on the filesystem 19:43:43 also, im paranoid and always remove symlinks with unlink, not rm; am i weird? 19:43:47 ais523: some crazy embedded one 19:43:57 even on the ones that let you, you need to be root and give a special arg to ln to say "yes I really mean this" 19:44:00 nope, not allowed 19:44:06 oh! 19:44:07 I know! 19:44:31 ln -d, it seems 19:45:36 i have a feeling it would not work on the outer system 19:46:26 hmm 19:46:29 ais523: ill just go for telnet then 19:46:31 maybe it will work 19:46:32 or rsh 19:46:33 pick 19:46:43 I don't think either will work 19:46:48 because script didn't 19:46:59 okay; any bright ideas? 19:47:05 hmm, rsh probably doesn't need ptys, come to think of it 19:47:07 you could try that 19:47:13 it shall be done 19:47:29 this is fun, in a sort of really demented way, isn't it?:P 19:47:32 *it? :P 19:47:48 wow, removing packages is slow 19:49:03 I'm not entirely sure what we're trying to achieve 19:49:17 other than making your system saner, which everyone here but you seems to think is a bad idea to even try to accomplish 19:49:26 Well, I'm trying to abolish all insanity in / and insert sanity in the form of Debian. 19:49:38 ais523: but why? Because it might break it? It is useless as it is anyway. 19:49:55 it wouldn't be useless if you just made it boot into the chroot 19:50:11 it'd be as useful as a sane version would be 19:50:15 that's less fun, though 19:52:27 ais523: try now, standard rsh port 19:52:30 i know nothing of rsh 19:52:35 oh i have not forwarded it 19:52:39 what is its number? 19:53:17 no idea 19:53:22 I do "man rsh" and get the man page for ssh 19:53:46 shall i just put the nc back up? 19:55:11 ais523: ok, how about we get it booting to the chroot 19:55:16 as, at least, a first step 19:55:20 now, we need it to do getty stuff 19:55:33 netcat started again 19:56:10 ** consider /etc/profile locked for editing 19:56:15 its like cvs! 19:57:19 ais523: should it run the chroot's init? 19:57:39 well, is the outside init working? 19:57:46 if so, you don't need an inside init 19:57:49 just something to start services 19:58:02 yes, but it'd be simpler 19:59:20 running two copies of init is simple? 19:59:24 im going to try running the chroots /sbin/init to see what happens 19:59:27 ais523: simpler from a debian point of view 19:59:45 * ais523 reads Slashdot story about company putting a content warning on the US constitution 19:59:56 whats the default init level? 20:00:31 3 I think 20:00:44 I'm amazed at Puppy Linux. 20:00:45 no /dev/initctl 20:00:51 pikhq: amazed howso 20:00:52 It has managed to make GTK not seem slow. 20:01:36 * alissed replaces /dev/initctl with mnt poop version 20:02:24 still does not work 20:02:27 hmm 20:02:33 ais523: ok, how can i start just the init.d stuff? 20:02:47 it used to be done by shellscript 20:02:56 presumably that method still works 20:03:50 like... manually running them? 20:04:03 a shell script ran everything in the right order 20:04:07 and was the only thing init ran 20:04:18 well, yes, but theres already a tangle of init.d stuff id like to use 20:04:33 so how can i just use the sysv part of sysvinit? 20:05:10 its /etc/init.d/rc i tihnk 20:05:21 no, rcS 20:05:27 -!- ais523 has left (?). 20:06:44 -!- alissed has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:06:49 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 20:09:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:20:41 -!- alissed has joined. 20:20:52 gah, where did ais go 20:23:17 Quit with a fungot quote in the quit message; that is messed-up. 20:23:18 fizzie: mother told me some of the art in solving the eopl problems specific to their business. 20:23:23 He always does that. 20:23:36 Whenever he doesn't set a quit message, which is rare. 20:26:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:33:36 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 20:34:58 -!- alissed has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:37:31 -!- Leonidas_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:37:38 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 20:40:03 -!- Leonidas_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:40:13 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 20:40:24 -!- olsner has joined. 20:41:33 -!- Leonidas_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:42:21 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 20:43:51 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:44:37 -!- b3n4dd1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:44:50 -!- Leonidas_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:46:08 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:48:28 -!- olsner has joined. 20:48:29 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:49:18 -!- olsner has joined. 20:55:28 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 20:57:27 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:58:41 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:10:34 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas__. 21:12:05 -!- Leonidas has changed nick to Leonidas_. 21:12:20 -!- Leonidas__ has changed nick to Leonidas. 21:13:26 -!- Leonidas_ has left (?). 21:17:12 -!- olsner_ has joined. 21:19:57 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:19:57 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner. 21:37:46 hello #esoteric 21:39:49 Hello, cheater #99. 21:43:18 how are you, high-quality pik? 21:59:28 I faireth well today. 21:59:39 Erm. Faireth? 21:59:41 Fare. 21:59:44 I fare well today. 21:59:49 However, my English does not. 22:05:35 Indeed. 22:05:43 pik is a kind of fish in swedish, I think 22:06:17 incidentally, pike in english is a different fish and also a sharp pole (which pik in swedish is also) 22:06:45 that last paren could actually use a second 'also' 22:09:01 nope, I'm just making things up 22:13:07 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: olsner). 22:25:59 -!- tombom_ has joined. 22:28:29 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:29:26 awww yeah 22:29:34 I finally found a store that supplied vermiculite 22:32:19 -!- charlls has joined. 23:21:57 okay so my sleep pattern is extremely fucked up atm 23:22:02 I woke up at 00:05 23:24:53 I guess I'm nocturnal now 23:27:03 That's pretty fucked up. 23:27:20 pikhq, yep 23:27:35 pikhq, at least I get to talk to new people 23:30:38 Whoo. 23:30:46 pikhq, hm? 23:36:49 hmm, waking up at 0:05 sounds like fun to me. I like being awake during the night. 23:37:02 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:38:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:41:39 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 23:41:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:55:20 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later). 23:58:05 -!- jcp has joined. 23:59:02 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:59:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).