00:00:47 <Gregor> So I can't get ffplay to work on the IREX, and I don't know why :(
00:02:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!).
00:02:20 <Gregor> (Ignoring the fact that it's ridiculous to run it there ;) )
00:04:35 <Rugxulo> hmmm, Parrot's Brainf*** bench.b doesn't seem worthy of the name, doesn't do much (prints 'Z'..'A')
00:09:20 <Rugxulo> and the "QuickBasic" [sic] thing is a compiler only but seems somewhat reasonable (if the README is to be believed)
00:10:25 <Rugxulo> it has Wumpus, for example ;-)
00:12:00 <Rugxulo> huh, "Befunge" Parrot maintainer is Quelin, go figure
00:14:16 <alise> Anyone ever wondered what the worst poem ever would look like?
00:14:30 <alise> Lo, for I have penned a travesty on the topic of emacs and vi: http://pastie.org/941004.txt?key=3p1yec1kcynj1rblir8a
00:14:56 <alise> It actually took effort to write that badly.
00:15:30 <alise> Especially rhyming repent with vio-lent.
00:15:52 <alise> Also winner/dinner/winner.
00:16:18 <Sgeo> It's not normal to rhyme a word with itself, is it?
00:16:40 <alise> Hey, it breaks Notepad.
00:17:02 <Rugxulo> BTW, Notepad can edit > 64k since NT-based (XP) became common
00:17:19 <Rugxulo> not sure what "[vi] can't handle 2k" means, though
00:17:25 <alise> Rugxulo: A petty insult, clearly!
00:17:50 <Rugxulo> Notepad can't even handle *nix line endings, and it adds a UTF-8 BOM (which is invalid)
00:18:14 -!- jcp1 has joined.
00:18:17 <Rugxulo> (but I use neither, honestly)
00:19:08 <coppro> I ****ing hate the UTF-8 BOM.
00:19:13 <Rugxulo> except you didn't mention "vi vi vi" nor "free software vi is a penance"
00:19:18 <alise> It was meant to be bad!
00:19:27 <coppro> and it was spectacularly so
00:19:27 <alise> Rugxulo: Yes, well, I had to fit within the poem structure; and I'm tired.
00:19:35 <coppro> one project I work on I have to make sure I add the BOMs before I commit
00:19:48 <coppro> ****ing piece of **** Windows
00:19:49 * Rugxulo imagines this is how Beowulf was penned
00:19:51 <alise> It commits so many atrocities against proper rhyming form.
00:20:01 <alise> Also, viity is just ludicrous.
00:20:09 <Sgeo> That... makes it seem like people where you work code in Notepad or something
00:20:50 <pikhq> ... UTF-8 BOM? *What the fuck*?
00:21:03 <Rugxulo> pikhq, it's a Notepad thing ;-)
00:21:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's more of a magic number for UTF-8
00:21:33 <coppro> alise: Also I couldn't grasp the meter at all
00:21:37 <pikhq> Rugxulo: MURDER. MICROSOFT. DEVELOPERS.
00:21:48 <alise> coppro: That's because it has no meter.
00:21:55 <alise> I just switched to indenting when I couldn't make it rhyme.
00:22:00 <alise> Sometimes it rhymed anyway.
00:22:05 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. A UTF-8 BOM is actually explicitly allowed by Unicode.
00:22:15 <coppro> except Notepad REQUIRES it
00:22:17 <Rugxulo> since when? I thought they disallowed it
00:22:24 <pikhq> It is recommended you avoid it, but it is allowed.
00:22:41 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Since always, it seems.
00:22:42 <coppro> hmm... it's Friday already?
00:22:45 <Rugxulo> you sure? even in UTF-8 explicitly??
00:22:59 <Rugxulo> UTF-16, sure, but I thought it was bad for UTF-8
00:23:21 <pikhq> It's a stupid idea, but it's permitted.
00:24:06 <coppro> probably because of braindead things like No<twitch>pad
00:24:22 <Rugxulo> "Dawkins is a clown" ... eh?
00:24:33 <fizzie> The "use as a signature" thing is in the BOM FAQ, http://unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#BOM
00:25:33 <pikhq> However, I'd imagine that *requiring* a BOM for UTF-8 is a big violation of the spec.
00:25:36 <fizzie> Also refers to a "particular protocol (e.g. Microsoft conventions for .txt files) --"; wonder if there's any other examples.
00:25:50 <Rugxulo> right, that's what it was, the damn BOM mucks up the shell script shebang thingie
00:26:20 <Rugxulo> in fairness, why anybody would ever use Notepad for serious text editing is beyond me ...
00:26:25 <pikhq> Simple fix for that on Linux.
00:26:37 <Rugxulo> I think Notepad++ is consistently one of the most popular projects on SourceForge
00:26:38 <pikhq> Write a simple shebang parser that ignores a leading BOM.
00:27:16 <pikhq> Then, register 0xEFBBBF as a magic number for an executable format, with your shebang parser as the program to handle it.
00:27:22 <pikhq> Voila. Shebang now works.
00:27:39 <Rugxulo> or ... just don't use Notepad ;-)
00:27:43 <pikhq> (requires the miscellanous executable format module and procfs)
00:28:40 <Rugxulo> so you've got four choices on Windows: Notepad, Wordpad, edit, edlin
00:28:49 <fizzie> Hey, gcc ignores the BOM; that's at least user-friendly.
00:29:02 <fizzie> clang doesn't: test.c:1:1: error: expected identifier or '('
00:29:12 <pikhq> fizzie: That's... Quite surprising *and* well-done of GCC.
00:29:21 * Rugxulo thought it odd that LLVM 2.7 doesn't have a MinGW compile of Clang
00:29:58 <Rugxulo> LLVM-gcc42 ... check, Clang ... nope!
00:30:43 <fizzie> Hey, I should test if llvm 2.7's clang compiles that ff3.
00:30:51 <coppro> fizzie: clang has about 0 Unicode support currently
00:31:43 <pikhq> clang 2.7 appears to have a regression in its support of computed goto.
00:31:51 <pikhq> I'd file a bug but it appears to have been filed already.
00:32:02 <fizzie> Assembler messages: "Error: symbol `.LBA3_run_' is already defined" times 145. Aw. :/
00:32:13 <pikhq> That's the regression in question, in fact.
00:32:23 <fizzie> I noticed one bug about that, but I thought I saw the word "fixed" in there somewhere.
00:32:33 <pikhq> It fails hardcore at generating new names.
00:32:44 <pikhq> Guess I'll reopen it then.
00:32:46 <fizzie> It was an earlier thing.
00:32:56 <fizzie> Let's see what was it I found.
00:33:17 <pikhq> http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=6608 This?
00:33:54 <pikhq> Ah. Yes, it's fixed, but it's not in 2.7.
00:34:08 <pikhq> Which is retarded. I'd call that a release-breaker.
00:34:31 <fizzie> "Computed goto, that's some evil hacker-cracker thing, better not speak about it."
00:38:18 <Rugxulo> fixed over a month ago, apparently
00:40:05 <Rugxulo> how the heck can LLVM srcs be 8 MB but the test suite is like 68 MB ?!?
00:40:24 -!- jcp1 has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
00:42:44 <Sgeo> alise, am I allowed to make a joke?
00:43:17 <alise> Rugxulo: it's very well-tested software. :)
00:43:22 <Sgeo> You should move to Reddit Island!
00:45:53 <pikhq> Rugxulo: They pride themselves on testing the code generator.
00:46:19 <Rugxulo> with what exactly? that's fairly huge for a test suite
00:47:52 <Rugxulo> obviously they didn't test computed gotos!
00:47:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Not compared with Sqlite.
00:48:24 <pikhq> Which actually tests for correct behavior at (and I am not kidding) each and every branch.
00:59:29 <pikhq> In Arizona, "teachers with accents" can no longer teach English.
00:59:36 <pikhq> That is so fucking dumb I cannot describe it.
00:59:52 <pikhq> You find me a person without an accent and I'll show you someone that's mute.
01:01:20 <alise> At least it'll stop people with American accents teaching English.
01:01:45 <pikhq> alise: There's a large number of incomprehensible UK accents, too.
01:02:03 <alise> But they're uncouth.
01:02:06 <Gregor> Yeah, but there's only ONE incomprehensible American accent ;)
01:02:19 <pikhq> RP speakers will be banned from teaching English too.
01:02:19 <alise> Anyway they don't count as British because I can't even understand Geordies so they don't exist Q.E.D.
01:02:36 <alise> But RP is a bit too posh!
01:04:40 <Rugxulo> Arizona is going a _leetle_ crazy
01:05:18 <pikhq> Recieved Pronounciation.
01:05:30 <pikhq> The "posh" and "educated" UK accent.
01:05:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:06:19 <alise> Rugxulo: Received Pronunciation is the accent of the Queen.
01:06:32 <alise> Of course, it isn't actually defined as that; but it's as good a guide as any.
01:06:47 <alise> It's actually all right most of the time, but some people take it Way Too Far.
01:06:52 <alise> (Such as, say, the Queen herself.)
01:07:01 <ais523> alise: actually, the Queen's accent has been shown to slip towards Cockney over the last decade or so
01:07:06 <uorygl> Random phrase from a related article: "advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals."
01:07:12 <ais523> it surprised me when I discovered that there were actually people who /measured/ these things
01:07:48 <uorygl> I find it strange that when people think of ethnic solidarity, they think of the alternative as being pupils-as-individuals.
01:08:18 <uorygl> I see the alternatives as being stuff like gender solidarity, national solidarity, political solidarity, and so on.
01:08:20 -!- jcp has joined.
01:08:57 <uorygl> My favorite one, and the one I advocate, is universal solidarity. We're all people; let's stop fighting purely over the fact that we're different.
01:08:59 <alise> My actual accent is extremely boring; it seems that no outside influence has passed over it.
01:09:21 <alise> So it's a very generic British accent, really.
01:09:32 <uorygl> alise just once looked at the English alphabet and came up with a sound to match each letter; that's his accent.
01:09:59 <pikhq> My accent is pretty much General American made more pedantic. :P
01:10:34 <uorygl> Judging by what people ask when they say "Why do you have a ____ accent?", I have a British accent.
01:11:55 <alise> I really dislike the American accent; it has this persistent nasal whining present all the time.
01:12:05 <uorygl> What is a nasal whining?
01:12:06 <alise> Like the average American attitude, actually.
01:12:19 <uorygl> I wonder if I have a nasal whining attitude.
01:12:21 <alise> uorygl: The sort of "ahh" - a sort of "r" vowel - repeated constantly in the background of every tone.
01:12:23 <alise> A very nasally sound.
01:12:26 <alise> Sorry; I can't explain further.
01:12:28 <alise> I don't even know IPA.
01:12:51 * uorygl ponders what sort of "ahh" a British person would consider a sort of "r" vowel.
01:13:00 <Rugxulo> you mean Jay Leno whining or something else?
01:13:31 <uorygl> By "tone", do you mean "vowel"?
01:14:19 * Sgeo loves this game
01:14:46 <alise> uorygl: Perhaps. I've really no idea.
01:15:16 <alise> But if you listen to, say, some BBC newsreporting, and then any American person, you'll notice a distinct sound underlying all the American's speech that does indeed seem nasal in nature that isn't present in the news report.
01:15:27 <alise> Perhaps it's only if you haven't grown up with American accents around you.
01:15:45 <Rugxulo> depends on the person ... I wouldn't consider Barry White nasally ;-)
01:16:00 <pikhq> alise: You've probably just heard the more nasaly American accents.
01:16:09 <pikhq> Some of them are, in fact, annoyingly nasal.
01:16:27 <alise> True; not being American, my exposure is biased.
01:17:01 <pikhq> Others are anything but. American accents are quite varied.
01:17:26 <alise> But they're all inferior to British ones :P
01:17:36 * uorygl listens to a certain American accent and finds it rather horrible.
01:17:50 <uorygl> This is the horrible accent: http://accent.gmu.edu/browse_language.php?function=detail&speakerid=121
01:18:05 <pikhq> alise: You got rid of rhoticism your argument is invalid.
01:18:25 <alise> I have no speakers at the moment.
01:18:56 * uorygl finds an American accent that sounds pretty good.
01:19:01 <Sgeo> http://1pd.org/play/4479_exploit.aspx
01:19:14 <pikhq> Come on, say it: "AAAARRRR".
01:19:23 <alise> pikhq: *Rhotacism.
01:19:46 <alise> Also I truly believe that the ae and oe ligatures should be used whenever possible in all typeset works; am I barmy?
01:20:04 <alise> And that the diresis is quite honestly superior to hyphenation.
01:20:09 <pikhq> Absolutely. Most of those result from overcorrection.
01:20:17 <alise> The diresis diacritic, that is.
01:20:37 <alise> pikhq: Most of what?
01:20:48 <pikhq> Instances of "ae" and "oe" ligatures.
01:21:00 <uorygl> It's really easy to press Command-Q by accident.
01:21:11 <pikhq> Erm. Hypercorrection, even.
01:21:26 <uorygl> Can I tell Chrome to reopen all those tabs I just closed?
01:21:36 <alise> pikhq: Really? I suppose I should mention that I also think that the spelling of words that used to have "" but now sport "e" should be reverted, too.
01:21:57 <alise> So I'd write sthetics, not esthetics.
01:21:57 <uorygl> Nothing useful seems to be in there.
01:22:20 <alise> I don't do it for the purpose of hypercorrection though. I just think it's more, well, sthetically pleasing.
01:22:24 <alise> I don't argue for s verywher.
01:22:35 <pikhq> "æ" and "oe" become "e" in Latin in the Middle Ages. And then they got re-expanded *the wrong way*.
01:22:43 <uorygl> I use "ae" inconsistently.
01:22:57 <pikhq> And quite often the "reversion" happened *when it had never been there*.
01:23:05 <uorygl> I like aesthetics and anaesthesia, but I would never consult an encyclopaedia.
01:23:11 <alise> Do you agree that "sthetic" and "dmon" are correct?
01:23:14 <pikhq> For instance: it's fucking "fetus", not "foetus".
01:23:19 <uorygl> And I really hate paedophiles.
01:23:22 <alise> Although I'm not sure I wouldn't write "demon".
01:23:47 <alise> And encyclopdia? What about pdophilia?
01:23:57 <alise> I didn't know ftus was incorrect.
01:24:02 <alise> Is it ftus, then? :P
01:24:10 <pikhq> No, it's always been "fetus".
01:24:29 <alise> Aww, ftus looks so much better :-P
01:24:36 <alise> "The word fetus is from the Latin fetus, meaning delicious,"
01:25:09 <pikhq> "encyclopaedia" is the Latin spelling.
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01:25:40 <uorygl> Hey, neat, "encyclopedia" means "circular education".
01:25:41 <pikhq> "pedophilia", "paedophilia", and
01:25:50 <pikhq> "pædophilia" are all completely bizarre.
01:26:01 <pikhq> They come from "paidophilos".
01:26:43 <alise> Well I'm not spelling it paidophilia, so what should I do?
01:26:49 <alise> Also, encyclopdia is nice, so I'm going to keep spelling it that way.
01:26:59 <alise> At least encyclopaedia; I refuse to devolve into writing encyclopedia.
01:27:04 <pikhq> Also, how do you pronounce "foetus", anyways? "foe - etus"?
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01:27:56 <alise> Hmm, pedophilia is a hard word. (Har har)
01:28:25 <alise> It seems to have gone from Latin to paedophilia in German to pedophilia in English.
01:30:27 <alise> The Encyclopdia Britannica is a preminent encyclopdia.
01:30:27 <alise> 1. Note: The author does not actually believe this.
01:31:35 <pikhq> Mmm, delicious diaresis and actually correct uses of ligatures.
01:32:00 <alise> diarsis, you uncouth bastard.
01:32:18 <alise> The only problem with that word is that it makes me think of diarrhea.
01:32:49 <pikhq> We were both wrong.
01:33:16 <pikhq> It's "dieresis", "diaeresis", or "diæresis".
01:33:47 <alise> Anyway, can I have a lot of money? I have an urge to buy some wonderfully-printed books.
01:36:05 <pikhq> ... And Fox News goes off the deep end *again*.
01:36:13 <pikhq> Calling Mr. Rogers evil.
01:36:24 <alise> I read the reddit comments on that; apparently the evil mark was clearly a joke.
01:36:46 <alise> I hate Fox News as much as the next sentient being, but did anyone actually watch the video before getting outraged? I know I didn't.
01:37:06 <alise> Anyway, less jabbering, more money to me.
01:38:50 * Sgeo loves not hanging out with friends on his birthday :(
01:38:59 <alise> Quit whining and do something interesting.
01:39:11 <alise> (Good life advice most of the time, actually.)
01:39:23 <Sgeo> alise, I don't know how
01:39:32 <uorygl> It's difficult to do something interesting when you feel like something bad is going to happen.
01:39:43 <alise> Well, don't we count as friends? :P
01:39:51 <alise> Sgeo: Think about things you're interested in, then wait; Eureka, now write down what you thought.
01:39:55 <uorygl> Like right now. I feel like as a result of my choices, the outcome is going to be unacceptable.
01:40:07 <alise> uorygl: Which choices?
01:40:11 <uorygl> And so now whenever I think about doing something, I go "aiee!"
01:40:32 <uorygl> alise: choices like going to the wrong college and not doing the required work.
01:40:41 <uorygl> And also failing to take advantage of opportunities.
01:40:44 <alise> uorygl: How old are you again?
01:40:46 <uorygl> And not making friends on campus.
01:40:57 <Sgeo> I've been going to arguably the wrong college for almost 3 years
01:41:19 <alise> uorygl: Well, you are still very young, then, and your college studies have only just started.
01:41:25 <Sgeo> Also, most of my college friends approached me. I didn't ever initiate friendships
01:41:25 <ais523> alise: what am I supposed to be outraged at?
01:41:27 <alise> You can easily go to another college and work harder there with no disadvantage at all.
01:41:29 <Sgeo> Well, once, very recently
01:41:45 <ais523> wow, I'm surprisingly good at feeling generically angry
01:41:50 <ais523> as in, I surprised myself
01:41:56 <ais523> I actually am angry atm, and I have no idea what at
01:41:56 <alise> uorygl: So plan that, and do it, and don't worry about it too much because in the end if you're smart it won't really matter because you'll know if you're not doing the right thing.
01:42:08 <alise> ais523: MR ROGERS! HNRRRRRRRRRR!
01:42:29 <uorygl> Hmm, now I feel like I don't know what to be scared about.
01:42:45 <ais523> uorygl: oil spills off the US coast? the entire economy about to collapse? politics in general?
01:42:55 <ais523> exploding supervolcanos? the LHC creating black holes?
01:43:06 <alise> Chickens taking over the world???
01:43:08 <uorygl> There, I just thought about a project I'd like to do, and I had a little bit of an "aiee" reaction.
01:43:45 <uorygl> A mathematical prediction market and proof database.
01:43:57 <alise> Lay off the Robin Hanson.
01:44:43 <uorygl> Robin Hanson came up with a specific application of prediction markets. My project idea has nothing to do with Robin Hanson.
01:44:59 <alise> Yeah, but Hanson is a big fan of prediction markets. So there :P
01:45:20 <alise> Well, okay, O'Connor likes them too and O'Connor is cool, so you're permitted.
01:45:28 <alise> What language would the proofs be in?
01:45:35 <uorygl> Also, I'm not a person who has negative feelings about Robin Hanson.
01:45:38 <alise> Some constructive one like Coq or Isabelle?
01:45:46 <alise> Ivor is not a proof language.
01:45:51 <alise> It is just a Haskell library.
01:45:53 <alise> Do you mean Idris?
01:45:56 <alise> That is not very proof-focused at all.
01:46:14 <alise> I strongly suggest that if you are going to do actual proofs you should have a language with actual proof infrastructure; so Idris, Agda etc. are out.
01:46:27 <alise> I'd strongly suggest Coq or Isar+Isabelle.
01:46:48 <uorygl> Well, okay. I'm not familiar with Coq whatsoever (modulo grammar), so what advantages does it have over something like Agda?
01:46:54 <alise> Isar has really nice proof structures actually: http://vdash.org/intro/cantor.html at least for the current crop of constructivist meanderings.
01:47:02 <alise> uorygl: Here's why Agda is totally unsuitable for this:
01:47:27 <alise> - it is not one concrete theory, just a bunch of features - admittedly so; it has been proved inconsistent several times, which is fixed by patches. Coq is based on one, very mathematically tested, tiny kernel theory.
01:47:41 <alise> It has only been proved inconsistent once, I think, and that was a bug in Coq, not the underlying theory.
01:47:47 <alise> And was very easily fixed.
01:47:54 <alise> (And the example was a very contrived one).
01:48:27 <alise> - Agda has very little infrastructure for the actual prover; proving is basically a trial-and-error, run-and-repeat task. With Coq and similar, the proof is an interactive process that automatically shows assumptions and goals for you and lets you step and rewind proofs step by step.
01:48:43 <alise> This is amazingly useful in proving even the simplest theorems; instead of a complete spark out of nowhere, you can do proofs incrementally.
01:48:59 <alise> And finally, Coq has actual practical proofs underlying it -- Goedel's First Incompleteness Theorem, for instance.
01:49:01 <alise> Nobody really uses Agda.
01:49:15 <alise> Isar is like Coq but with a more declarative proof style; I think it is less interactive. I don't know much more about it.
01:49:25 <pikhq> 'A patent pool is being assembled to go after Theora and other “open source” codecs now.' -- Steve Jobs.
01:49:47 <pikhq> So. Fuck you, Steve Jobs. You make Microsoft look open.
01:49:51 <alise> Mizar, while proprietary, has a very comprehensive database of mathematics already and a very readable declarative style. It is not constructive though.
01:49:59 <alise> uorygl: And that's most of what I have to say on the matter!
01:50:07 <uorygl> Mmkay. I don't know what Ivor is based on; I seemed to get the idea that it's based on some sort of formal theory, though not a specific one I've heard of.
01:50:11 <alise> pikhq: Yup, I pretty much hate Steve Jobs now.
01:50:27 <uorygl> What you say about the interactive proving stuff makes sense.
01:50:33 <alise> uorygl: I think it is the same one that underlies Coq. But it's really a library, a framework for building on. It's barely suitable for writing programs in directly, let alone proofs of any complexity.
01:50:37 <ais523> alise: Steve Jobs specifically, or Apple in general?
01:50:43 <ais523> I can think of arguments for either
01:50:44 <alise> Idris is a competent dependently-typed programming language based on it, but with next to no proof infrastructure.
01:51:03 <ais523> in other news, apparently IE9 <video> supports only H.264
01:51:09 <uorygl> The fact that Ivor is a library is precisely why I wanted it.
01:51:22 <ais523> so it seems Microsoft are more afraid of Firefox than Safari
01:51:37 <uorygl> If the theory underlying Ivor is the same as that of Coq, doesn't that mean you can use Coq to create a proof and Ivor to verify it?
01:51:55 <alise> uorygl: Right, but build a tactic or declarative proof engine, with all the necessary underlying tactics and intelligence, etc., plus interactive interface?
01:52:04 <alise> Seems pointless unless you're going to add something over Coq and similar.
01:52:09 <alise> Theoretically yes, but you'd have to translate their notations etc.
01:52:22 <alise> And I think Coq has a few small extensions to the theory (that are almost-certainly-consistent; and you can disable them)
01:53:37 <alise> uorygl: Mind you, I'd wait for /my/ language which will make /everything/ great...
01:54:03 <uorygl> Mmkay, so Coq has a front-end that makes it easy to create proofs. I guess that's the important thing.
01:54:19 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but Microsoft being Microsoft, they'll probably implement h.264 so poorly that it's actually m.264.
01:54:27 <alise> Yes. But the resulting proofs aren't all that readable. But you can step through them and understand them. They just often need more documentation than a declarative proof.
01:54:32 <uorygl> It would make me happy if I could use a language that has a direct Haskell interface, but I guess that's not necessary.
01:54:36 <alise> There is a declarative extension to Coq but it isn't much.
01:54:42 <alise> uorygl: You won't need that for proofs.
01:54:51 <alise> uorygl: Now, another suggestion I have to make: avoid Coq's standard library numerics.
01:54:53 <pikhq> No, I'm giving a name to the inevitably broken implementation they will have.
01:54:57 <alise> In fact, I'd avoid most of Coq's library altogether.
01:55:08 <pikhq> I shall stick this alongside MHTML and MCSS.
01:55:11 <alise> It is not all the formally constructed. You will want to build things up from magmas onwards.
01:55:13 <ais523> how badly /can/ you break a video codec?
01:55:25 <alise> pikhq: MJavascript = JScript
01:55:26 <ais523> without it being obviously wrong?
01:55:32 <alise> *all that formally
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01:55:47 <uorygl> I wonder if I had a concrete reason for wanting to go with something written in Haskell.
01:55:57 <alise> Lunacy? Haskell addiction? :)
01:56:00 <pikhq> ais523: These are the guys who stuck 3 boolean types in their API.
01:56:22 <uorygl> I didn't want to go through all the trouble of making one program run another program? :P
01:56:28 <pikhq> One of which is only a boolean in *name*.
01:56:31 <ais523> pikhq: ok, point granted, but that seems easier to do for insane reasons than messing up a video codec such that it's broken but not obviously so
01:56:33 <alise> uorygl: I warn you that if you travel down the wondrous path of type theory-based theorem provers, you /will/ find yourself at the very bottom, musing about the turtles.
01:56:41 <alise> You might even start to believe there's an end to them... but that's just madness, isn't it?
01:56:45 <ais523> I thought they had at least 0/1, yes/no, on/off, true/false
01:56:53 <pikhq> BOOL, BOOLEAN, and TRUE_BOOLEAN
01:56:57 <alise> What I'm trying to say is expect to start taking the metainformation like quantifiers and arrows and the like from mathematical statements,
01:57:01 <alise> then removing all the rest
01:57:04 <alise> and jumbling it up a bit
01:57:12 <pikhq> int with 0 and 1, short with 0 and -1, and char with -1 and 0, IIRC.
01:57:15 <alise> and then you'll consider that just as useful & relevant.
01:57:34 <pikhq> And some functions returning BOOLEAN will also return 1.
01:57:42 <pikhq> As a third possible result.
01:58:22 <alise> Most languages have a FILE_NOT_FOUND; ⊥.
01:58:36 <Rugxulo> pikhq, who are you talking about?
01:58:43 <pikhq> alise: This is in addition to ⊥.
01:58:45 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Microsoft.
01:58:55 * uorygl decides that the gate {0 -> 0, 1 -> 1} should be called an OT gate.
01:59:11 <pikhq> uorygl: I call it "a piece of wire".
01:59:37 <uorygl> Such things actually find a useful place in electonics.
01:59:53 <uorygl> Suppose you have one gate whose output is used as the input to 65,536 other gates.
02:00:04 <alise> uorygl: Also, if you venture down constructivist ways, be expected to have your intuition defied.
02:00:05 <uorygl> One gate can't provide that much output current, so you use a bunch of OT gates to help.
02:00:05 <pikhq> Yes, wires are useful.
02:00:08 <ais523> uorygl: I call {00 -> 0, 01 -> 0, 10 -> 1, 11 -> 1} a MOV gate
02:00:11 <ais523> after the asm instruction
02:00:25 <alise> For instance, the most common construction of the subset of the reals you can construct, you can't prove the trichotomy of the reals in.
02:00:30 <uorygl> ais523: I like that name.
02:00:30 <alise> But I think there are constructions which alleviate this.
02:00:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yes, those 3 types are all normal parts of the Win32 API.
02:00:52 <pikhq> *And* the Win16 API.
02:00:59 * uorygl ponders how you prove the trichotomy of the reals in Dedekind cuts.
02:01:03 <ais523> the win32 and win16 APIs have the same tpyes
02:01:07 <ais523> they're just different sizes
02:01:14 <pikhq> Oh, and note that those are uppercase typedefs.
02:01:16 <alise> uorygl: appeal to not-not, basically
02:01:29 <alise> there is no real that doesn't satisfy some horn of the trichotomy
02:01:32 <uorygl> Ooh, right, and not-not doesn't exist in intuitionistic logic.
02:01:33 <pikhq> In addition to their random hungarian typedefs and such.
02:01:34 <alise> therefore all reals satisfy it
02:01:40 <pikhq> They also have a CHARP typedef.
02:01:48 <alise> uorygl: i don't think you can do dedekind cuts in constructivist settings... dunno
02:01:48 <pikhq> It is, unsurprisingly, a char*.
02:01:53 <alise> uorygl: mostly we do it as cauchy sequences
02:02:05 <alise> f : Q+ -> Q, such that forall e1, e2:Q+, |f e1 - f e2| <= e1 + e2
02:02:05 <uorygl> Well, yeah, you'd have to pretty much write a function that takes two reals and compares them.
02:02:15 <alise> but I'm thinking a continued fraction representation might be nicer
02:02:19 <ais523> pikhq: one of the most memorable bits of the Win32 API is the way it uses lpcsz as a relatively common Hungarian prefix
02:02:25 <ais523> for "long pointer to constant zero-terminated string"
02:02:40 <alise> because i think you can prove <0 =0 >0
02:02:41 <uorygl> If you represent a real number as a predicate on rational numbers, then... darn, you don't get equality.
02:02:45 <alise> and indeed <rat =rat >rat
02:02:50 <uorygl> Lots of stuff is uncomputable, of course.
02:02:52 <alise> but not <irrat =irrat >irrat
02:02:58 <alise> (because comparing infinite structures is impossible)
02:03:04 <uorygl> I'd like to simply use a NotNot monad!
02:03:04 <alise> so, yeah, it's just all compromises
02:03:18 <ais523> alise: does the definition rule out the possibility of infinitesimals?
02:03:18 <alise> uorygl: otoh, you can just axiomatise the reals and not give a shit that there's no model of your axioms
02:03:29 <alise> ais523: infinitesimals aren't even reals in non-standard analysis.
02:03:34 <ais523> does it rule out the possibility of a smallest positive number?
02:03:38 <uorygl> I once tried to write ZFC in Agda as a term model.
02:03:42 <ais523> but that doesn't mean that axioms would necessarily rule them out
02:03:47 <ais523> unless they were written for the possibility
02:03:49 <uorygl> I like the idea of simply writing the axioms.
02:03:50 <alise> I guess inftes = [0; 0, 0, 0, ...infinite 0s..., 1]
02:03:59 <alise> uorygl: But that's very unconstructivist, and constructions are Nice.
02:04:01 <ais523> I'm trying to think of possible flaws in the axioms
02:04:12 <alise> uorygl: If you're going down that route, just add the LEM as an axiom.
02:04:32 <uorygl> Well, then half my proofs wouldn't be runnable! Which isn't much of a problem.
02:04:32 <alise> I'm interested in the best construction of the computable reals. So ask me sometime if you're interested too.
02:04:41 <uorygl> But I'd rather mark which ones are runnable and which aren't.
02:04:42 <alise> uorygl: But you also wouldn't be able to write /programs/.
02:04:52 <alise> And programs are nice, especially when they're all theoretical and shizz.
02:05:01 <alise> pikhq: most useful.
02:05:11 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_axiomatization_of_the_reals are pretty
02:05:20 <alise> Now back to people giving me money!
02:05:43 * pikhq gives alise $100i.
02:05:59 <uorygl> I don't know how I would feel about receiving $100i.
02:06:00 <ais523> alise: why are you demanding money?
02:06:04 <alise> I need real (actually, rational) money to buy prettily-printed books.
02:06:04 <ais523> and why are you expecting to /get/ it?
02:06:17 <alise> ais523: Because I'm adorable.
02:06:23 <ais523> uorygl: ambivalent, I suppose
02:06:31 <pikhq> uorygl: It'd certainly make your accounting complex.
02:06:37 <alise> As for your first question, because I'm trying to get some money to [waste?].
02:07:10 <uorygl> If I wanted to have exactly a certain amount of money, I would be disappointed at receiving $100i.
02:07:20 <alise> Unless you wanted $100i.
02:07:30 <ais523> uorygl: you could always give it to someone else
02:07:41 <alise> No, that'd be too complex.
02:07:42 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you should accept $100i or not if someone offers it to you
02:07:43 <alise> It's imaginary money.
02:07:44 <uorygl> If I had a real amount of money and wanted exactly a certain real amount of money.
02:07:49 <ais523> after all, if they offer you a negative amount of money, you should refuse
02:07:54 <alise> ais523: That's a complex matter...
02:08:06 <ais523> has this turned into the IRC equivalent of a pun thread?
02:08:17 <alise> I think it's imaginary.
02:08:24 <pikhq> uorygl: I strongly suspect you want a subset of a real amount of money.
02:08:24 <alise> ...not too many puns, really.
02:08:32 <uorygl> Well, if people can simply give each other arbitrary amounts of money, positive or negative, then there's no reason to worry about money, because you can always get money.
02:09:06 <pikhq> Probably a positive real amount.
02:09:06 <uorygl> Intuitively, I think the positive amounts of money should be defined as those where the absolute value of the imaginary part is less than the real part.
02:09:08 <ais523> uorygl: well, assuming gifts can be refused
02:09:27 <uorygl> Well, you have to define the amounts of money that a person can have.
02:09:37 <uorygl> If I have $5, I can't give someone $8 and be left with $-3.
02:09:39 <pikhq> Or if you prefer being easy to deal with, a positive *computable real* amount.
02:09:42 <ais523> uorygl: but if you had an imaginary amount of imaginary money, wouldn't it have a negative absolute value?
02:09:53 <uorygl> Whatever you just said, no.
02:10:03 <pikhq> (not having a mapping to the naturals makes my computer cry)
02:10:10 <ais523> I'd love to find a mathematical theory in which that /did/ work, though
02:10:29 <uorygl> We'll say that the amount of money you have must always be an integer.
02:10:54 <uorygl> If you have $100i, you must gamble until that amount becomes an integer number of cents.
02:11:01 <uorygl> Whichever; it doesn't matter.
02:11:19 <alise> Incidentally, Ripple.
02:11:50 <pikhq> So. Zimbabwe cents then.
02:13:09 <pikhq> The metal in such a coin would be worth 30-odd orders of magnitude more than the coin itself.
02:13:24 <uorygl> Assume that you don't have access to the coin itself, just the money. :P
02:13:52 <pikhq> (mmm, 6.5*10^108% inflation...)
02:14:06 <alise> Zimbabwe reset their currency recently; then abandoned it altogether.
02:14:32 <uorygl> Anyway, we can say that anyone is allowed to gamble in any manner as long as the gamble is fair, and has no chance of causing the person's amount of money to become negative.
02:15:59 <uorygl> Then we'll define "negative" as the absolute value of the imaginary part being greater than the real part.
02:16:17 <alise> It isn't really gambling if it isn't risky. :P
02:16:33 <uorygl> If I have $100, betting $100 is risky!
02:16:37 <pikhq> "I gamble 1 billion dollars" 1 loss away "Yeah, I don't have 1 billion dollars" "You owe me all the money bitch." Bam. Negative money.
02:16:39 <ais523> alise: it is risky, because you might go from a positive ownership to a smaller positive ownership
02:16:55 <uorygl> So, suppose I have $100, and somebody gives me $100i. Now the amount of money I have is on the very border of being negative.
02:17:00 <pikhq> (or, more likely, negative life-having)
02:17:05 <uorygl> And no gamble I can make can push me away from that.
02:17:11 <ais523> pikhq: in other words, zero-equivalent?
02:17:12 <uorygl> So this seems like a pretty bad thing.
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02:17:42 <uorygl> Of course, if I have $100 + $100i (bad) and someone else has $100 - $100i (also bad), we can just trade and each end up with $100 (good).
02:18:01 <ais523> Subject: [SPAM?] ?spam? Stop spamming
02:18:06 <ais523> spammers get more creative all the time...
02:18:23 <uorygl> So in this system, having imaginary amounts of money is generally a bad thing, I think.
02:18:43 <ais523> uorygl: you've defined three quarter-planes as negative, and the other as positive
02:18:59 <uorygl> Yes, that's what I meant to do.
02:19:39 <fizzie> Sneak-peek on the current incoming spam: there's one with a RTF attachment. I haven't seen very much of that.
02:20:06 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it contains an exploit?
02:20:31 <fizzie> Well, I looked at it with a text editor; it seems to just contain some hyperlinks to .ru URL's, and that's about it.
02:20:42 <fizzie> Also \generator Msftedit 1.32.47.3014;
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02:24:14 <ais523> <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/byilp/c_compilers_disprove_fermats_last_theorem/>: could some redditor point out that signed overflow in C is undefined?
02:24:18 <ais523> they all seem to have missed the fact
02:24:32 <ais523> a compiler can optimise a loop into anything at all if it can prove that it requires an integer overflow at some point
02:26:35 <fizzie> Does the original thing require an integer overflow? The a, b, c integers there are limited to be <= 1000, after all.
02:27:42 <ais523> hmm, missed the difference between MAX and INT_MAX
02:28:26 <fizzie> It does say in the text that MAX=1000 because 2*1000^3 is still <2^31.
02:34:55 <fizzie> It's a bit curious if they throw away a reasonable infinite loop like that. My version of clang doesn't.
02:35:26 <fizzie> Maybe I have just not enabled enough optimilizations.
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02:55:58 <Rugxulo> gah, someone test that please
02:56:49 <Rugxulo> hmmm, okay, never mind, that doesn't show what I wanted anyways
02:57:08 <Rugxulo> try this: &:+.@ (where your input is -5)
02:57:42 <Rugxulo> bef = good, fbbi or ccbi = bad
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03:08:22 <fizzie> & does not read negative numbers.
03:08:57 <Rugxulo> the original interpreter handles it okay
03:09:08 <fizzie> "Decimal input reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters, at which point it reads a decimal number from those digits, --"
03:09:37 <Rugxulo> but Befunge inherently handles a signed 32-bit stack!
03:09:48 <Rugxulo> it can print negative numbers too, so why not accept them as input?
03:10:26 <Rugxulo> case '&': /* Input Integer */
03:10:41 <fizzie> That's even more wrong then.
03:10:59 <Rugxulo> which, the spec or the author or (God forbid) someone else ;-)
03:11:18 <fizzie> The code you pasted, w.r.t the spec.
03:11:23 <fizzie> There's a very strictly specified behaviour when the number would overflow.
03:11:48 <fizzie> Specifically, it must not read the digit that would cause an overflow.
03:12:24 <fizzie> It reads "up until (but not including) the point at which input characters stop being digits, or the point where the next digit would cause a cell overflow, whichever comes first."
03:12:57 <Rugxulo> I don't know if I agree that he strictly meant '0'..'9' as "digits" here
03:13:07 <Rugxulo> I assume he just meant signed long int
03:13:47 <fizzie> But those *are* decimal digits. And anyway I don't think fscanf would unread the digit that would cause an overflow.
03:13:55 <fizzie> I think that since the spec is so very detailed, people have generally taken it pretty literally.
03:14:09 <Rugxulo> FBBI does it like you say (apparently), and it does indeed do ungetc()
03:14:22 <Rugxulo> are you referring to B93 or B98 here?
03:14:41 <fizzie> That fscanf won't even skip the non-digits in front, just space.
03:14:59 <Rugxulo> i->a = (long)0|fgetc(stdin);
03:15:00 <Rugxulo> if ((i->a >= '0') && (i->a <= '9')) ungetc(i->a, stdin);
03:15:00 <Rugxulo> } while ((i->a < '0') || (i->a > '9'));
03:15:01 <Rugxulo> if(scanf ("%ld", &i->a) != EOF)
03:15:18 <fizzie> B98 is what I quoted, have to check B93 too.
03:15:30 <Rugxulo> that's from fbbi (just quoted)
03:16:29 <fizzie> Well, it's "get a numeric value (in decimal)" for B93, so you have much more freedom for variation there.
03:18:38 <fizzie> That fbbi code seems to properly skip non-digits until it encounters a digit, but I don't think it necessarily reads the number itself right, unless scanf's %d conversion guarantees that (it just might).
03:20:28 <fizzie> Didn't notice anything like that in my man page though.
03:24:53 <Rugxulo> but I don't see why it wouldn't let you do so, esp. if it handles signed numbers by default
03:25:32 <fizzie> The Funge-98 overflow check is not completely trivial to implement, since it isn't just a length limit; for 32-bit cells, if you've read "214748364" so far, you must read the next digit if it's 0..7, but leave it in the stream if it's 8 or 9.
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03:26:12 <Rugxulo> I don't really know C, but I thought it handled these things
03:26:13 <fizzie> And of course in C you can't let the actual overflow happen.
03:26:44 <Rugxulo> maybe I'm thinking of strtol(), I dunno
03:27:51 <fizzie> It doesn't: "if the result of the conversion cannot
03:27:55 <fizzie> be represented in the space provided, the behaviour is undefined"
03:28:32 <fizzie> (Source: interwebs; reading the standards is too awkward with the phone.)
03:29:45 <fizzie> strtol doesn't do it right either; it reads all digits and clamps the value to LONG_MAX.
03:30:20 <fizzie> Or, well, you could say that's "right", but not the Funge-98 right.
03:31:00 <fizzie> (The "it" in "it doesn't" up there was scanf.)
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03:32:49 <Rugxulo> entering -3 billion for bef prints 1294967296
03:33:07 <Rugxulo> for fbbi, same input prints -1294967296
03:33:45 <fizzie> It should give 300 million.
03:34:14 <Rugxulo> ccbi is correct and fbbi is wrong, then
03:34:25 <fizzie> As for why it doesn't handle negative numbers: like I said, since the spec is so exact on the number-reading algorithm, people (at least those I know) have just been implementing exactly what it says there without customizations.
03:34:39 <Rugxulo> which, IMHO, is a bit suspect since I assume the original creator/author knew what he was doing ;-)
03:35:14 <fizzie> Well, it's not quite like the t case, for which the spec taken literally is quite useless.
03:36:17 * Rugxulo is also testing Parrot + their Befunge [93] a bit
03:38:01 <Rugxulo> seems they had two minor bugs, and I'm not sure I pointed out (fixed?) them correctly, honestly not sure they even *care* (argh), but anyways, done my duty trying ;-)
03:38:25 <Rugxulo> make that three bugs, but the third has to do with not loading a .dll file correctly (and I dunno why, only found silly workaround)
03:39:09 <Sgeo> Is Exploit potentially TC?
03:40:28 <fizzie> Nights, now; already around 05:40am here.
03:41:56 <alise> i love finite derivatives so much
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04:13:53 <alise> I need to: yawn. No, sleep.
04:13:55 <alise> Motivation stores are empty.
04:14:50 <Sgeo> Wooo! Just finished the story mode of Exploit
04:16:20 <alise> Sleep! Must sleep! -- no sleep; fuckitol.
04:17:26 * Sgeo puts alise to sleep
04:17:37 <alise> Permanenterelrely?
04:18:03 <alise> When you can extenderlongeratitionermatabilityenactingnesserateabilitynesseratinger a word, that means you are tired
04:18:31 * Sgeo is either creepy or a murderer, depending on how you look at what I said
04:18:44 <Sgeo> Hm, creepy either way, really
04:19:46 <alise> Yeah, pretty creppy
04:20:59 <alise> Federal 4:20 am it is
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05:05:32 <alise> Gregor: ping; if you don't respond I may get so bored as to actually embed myself
05:06:48 * Sgeo embeds alise in a webpa.. that sounds WRONG, and I just wanted to sound geeky
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05:16:06 <alise> Gregor: that irex thing
05:16:15 <alise> is there anything for it with some form of handwriting recog?
05:16:37 <Gregor> Not to my knowledge, but if there's anything for GTK+ it may be portable to the IREX.
05:16:57 <alise> I'm just thinking about it as a platform for mathsy stuff.
05:17:11 <alise> Being able to scribble mathematical notation and have it interpreted would be ubernice. Still that response time though.
05:18:38 <Gregor> Frankly I think you've got a pipe dream thar :P
05:18:51 <alise> mathematical notation recognition is actually pretty alright
05:18:58 <alise> it's just the stupid eink :(
05:19:25 <alise> Hmm, you know the ... what is it, Graffiti - input thing for PDA?
05:19:32 <alise> Where you, like, draw specialised symbols.
05:19:38 <alise> Anything like that for the rexy i?
05:20:56 <Gregor> The IREX has only an onscreen keyboard as its default input method for general text.
05:21:08 <alise> Yess but has anyone ported anything else
05:22:04 <Gregor> That might be even simpler, it uses Matchbox and Matchbox has such a thing already IIRC.
05:23:02 <Gregor> The DR800 is reeeelatively new, very little has been ported to it. I was the first person to port rxvt to it, so that should give you an idea.
05:25:12 <Gregor> I don't know. Certainly the overpriced Euro one isn't, but if you can get a US one shipped, maybe.
05:27:06 <alise> I just can't bring myself to buy an internet-using, lovely-tablet-screen-having, X11-running mobile device that isn't useful for IRC.
05:27:11 <alise> So some good input method is a must.
05:28:08 <Gregor> I just ported cellwriter to it, let's see if it's useful :P
05:29:23 <alise> It's 5:28 am. you are not helping! :)
05:29:38 <alise> so given up on the wearable computing thing eh
05:29:50 <alise> "IREX Technologies is the world's leading provider of e-reading solutions" yeah sure
05:38:01 <alise> i need to know before i bludgeon myself to sleep
05:38:37 <Gregor> My porting job was sufficiently incomplete that I don't have an answer, it shows up as a full screen app and as such can't be used to actually input into anything yet :P
05:39:46 <alise> hurry up this is actually physically hurting me :P
05:39:52 <Sgeo> Hey, Android soft keyboards are fullscreen, and useful for input
05:41:18 <Gregor> That's useful on touch, not tablet.
05:43:06 <alise> fucking awesome tablet made of rocks
05:43:14 <alise> and now that is my signal that it is almost 6 am.
05:44:22 <alise> "imperviosity" rhymes with "having sex with a tree"
05:45:08 <alise> just thought you might like to know
05:48:17 <alise> also "glorious midgets that are also alteregos of a doctor" does not rhyme with "glue"
05:48:31 <alise> and at that point i ask Gregor once more before embedding myself
05:52:29 <alise> Gregor: ANSWER MY FUZUKING QUESTION YOU tree :|
05:54:48 <alise> Gregor: I will haunt you 4eva 'n eva
05:58:12 <alise> Gregor: PLEASE ANSWER ME :(
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10:00:14 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> AnMaster, which MicroEmacs? the most "active" variant was/is JASSPA <-- good point
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14:52:39 <alise> Gregor: so did it work
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15:54:33 <alise> non-player-shmaracter
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16:11:44 <oerjan> oh well, it's over a month since the last one
16:11:53 <oerjan> it just looks a lot when no one posts there :D
16:18:13 <oerjan> is "pushed on the stack" and "pushed to the stack" equally valid?
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16:20:03 * oerjan is trying to proofread the Calculon article
16:21:05 <alise> oerjan: both are valid, yes
16:21:15 <alise> Pushed to sounds weird
16:21:25 <alise> 0-9 -- The value is pushed onto the stack.
16:21:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: no need to answer btw, alise already did ;)
16:22:39 <oerjan> calculon's argument order seems to be the reverse of forth
16:24:20 <AnMaster> when you can't find some well established software in debian repos you know it is some very niche you are dealing with...
16:24:33 <AnMaster> (in this case, a cycle accurate x86 simulator)
16:24:44 * oerjan changes first and last to top and bottom for clarity
16:25:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, which way does the stack grow ;P
16:25:10 <AnMaster> if it grows down this may be even more confusing
16:25:32 <oerjan> um i'm assuming "top of stack" is a standard term
16:25:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, true, was just trying to confuse you ;P
16:25:52 <oerjan> think stack of plates on a spring, is what i hear
16:26:04 <oerjan> augur: someone's new language on wiki
16:26:05 <augur> is he the new autobot that does calculus?
16:26:29 <oerjan> basically a slightly weird forth
16:27:31 <alise> botte will do calculus!
16:27:34 <alise> just as soon as i write it.
16:27:53 <oerjan> well the argument order is backwards, and it looks like looping will be a bit weird
16:28:12 <oerjan> possibly. it's still under construction
16:28:47 <augur> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/140
16:28:51 <augur> so this was linked on reddit
16:29:25 <augur> which reminds me of a discussion i had with some idiot somewhere
16:29:34 <augur> about whether or not it was possible to detect infinite loops
16:29:47 <augur> he insisted that to detect _any_ infinite loop required solving the halting problem
16:30:26 <alise> a lot of idiots think that.
16:30:34 <alise> all programs running on our computers can be halt-checked by a supersupercomputer
16:30:53 <alise> certainly I'm sure haltchecking a regular 4gb 2ghz dualcore comptuer could be done with a computer that would fit into the universe
16:31:07 <alise> obviously it could be done by a turing machine
16:31:16 <oerjan> augur: well the word "any" is ambiguous in english ;D
16:32:18 <augur> its actually not ambiguous, tho. its a choice function, so it has properties that seem like "all" and properties that seem like "some"
16:33:09 <oerjan> it's ambiguous in that particular context
16:34:05 <augur> no, like i said, its not ambiguous, it's just a choice function which means that it simultaneously has properties of both universal and existential quantification
16:34:13 <AnMaster> #CFLAGS = -O1 -g3 -march=pentium4 -mtune=k8 -falign-functions=16
16:34:13 <oerjan> it's also a weird word to norwegians, we don't really have any that work like that
16:34:24 <AnMaster> that was an interesting definition of no optimisations
16:35:14 <oerjan> (any and some are both translated as "noe(n)", usually)
16:35:33 <AnMaster> The recommended optimisation flags for this are (no this is not cfunge!, nor am I involved in this project): -O3 -g -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe -march=core2 -msse4.1 -falign-functions=16 -funroll-loops -funit-at-a-time -minline-all-stringops -fno-trapping-math -fno-stack-protector -fno-exceptions -fno-rtti -funroll-loops -mpreferred-stack-boundary=4 -fno-strict-aliasing -Wreturn-type
16:37:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, agreed. However, it is an x86 emulator. Those sometimes have special needs
16:37:31 <AnMaster> compared to "usual" programs I mean
16:37:52 <AnMaster> hm it fails to link with "undefined reference to <various libc string functions>"
16:40:26 * alise wonders what the relation to the continuum hypothesis with type theory is
16:40:37 <alise> I wonder if there are types with cardinality inbetween t and (t->bool)...
16:40:40 <AnMaster> okay it seems to be because it doesn't link to libc (duh)
16:40:48 -!- hiato has joined.
16:40:58 <AnMaster> it also uses a custom linker script as far as I can tell
16:42:10 <oerjan> alise: well of course there are, take a finite type
16:42:22 <alise> oerjan: I mean infinite t
16:42:23 <oerjan> if t has 3 elements, t -> bool has 8
16:42:28 <alise> (at least as big as the naturals)
16:42:44 <alise> because my definition of cardinality is based on it...
16:42:53 <oerjan> so the generalized continuum hypothesis, then
16:42:53 <alise> technically my beth numbers can only take naturals not ordinals atm though
16:43:03 <alise> yes. but what is its status in set theory?
16:43:29 <alise> I represent "x has cardinality beth n" (I've avoided aleph because beth is a closer match) by a bijection from x to Infin n
16:43:36 <alise> where infin is repeated ->bools over the naturals
16:43:59 <alise> so of course this only lets you express all cardinalities if the generalised continuum hypothesis holds in set theory... it probably does though
16:44:04 <alise> or at least, is a fine axiom to add
16:44:17 <oerjan> i vaguely recall some result that says you can choose the beths to be a fairly free subset of the alphas
16:44:25 <alise> I wonder how to represent ordinals; I'll need ordinally beth numbers sometime.
16:44:33 <alise> But beth n for natural n will do for now.
16:44:51 <oerjan> there are some restrictions, but a lot of leeway
16:46:08 * alise can now write "nat [has cardinality] beth 0"
16:46:47 <oerjan> alise: cantor normal form can get you a way above the naturals, at least
16:47:24 <alise> in set theory it can, nothing is certain in type theory :)
16:47:31 <alise> Theorem naturals_are_beth_zero : nat [has cardinality] beth 0.
16:47:33 <alise> apply infinite_cardinality.
16:47:33 <alise> exists (id (A:=nat)).
16:47:33 <alise> exists (id (A:=nat)).
16:47:47 <alise> now to prove something more interesting, like option A adding 1 to A's cardinality
16:47:49 <oerjan> alise: well it's pretty certain you get ordinals out of it, i should think
16:47:53 <alise> which means I need cardinal arithmetic
16:48:07 <oerjan> cantor normal form is pretty constructive afaiac
16:48:30 <alise> A [has cardinality] n -> option A [has cardinality] succard n
16:48:38 <alise> You little succard.
16:50:09 <alise> oerjan: the annoying thing is I don't just need ordinal arithmetic
16:50:15 <alise> because I have both "finite n" and "beth n" cardinalities
16:50:20 <alise> so I need separate cardinality-adding functions
16:51:49 <alise> Theorem fin_n_has_cardinality_finite_n {n} : fin n [has cardinality] finite n.
16:52:02 <alise> in_coq_we_often_repeat_ourselves : In Coq, we often repeat ourselves.
17:15:33 <AnMaster> now THIS is strange. the thing work correctly when running under strace or under gdb, but not when running stand alone
17:15:41 <AnMaster> and no there is no core to analyse, it just exits
17:15:52 <AnMaster> oh and I need -f (follow forks) for it to work under strace
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17:22:56 <Sgeo> It is now legal for me to drink alcohol
17:26:01 <alise> yes, happy birthday!
17:26:05 <alise> I would have said it sooner but you hadn't spoken
17:26:07 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:26:16 <alise> also, don't drink too much booze!
17:26:48 <alise> way too high drinking age
17:27:20 <oerjan> wait it's 21 for _all_ alcohol?
17:27:36 <oerjan> in norway it's 18 for non-distilled
17:30:19 <Gregor> If you can't read Unicode, you şūċķ.
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17:32:01 <hiato> Sgeo: happy birthday!
17:32:16 <oerjan> i can, i just have to go to the logs to do it ;)
17:32:35 <oerjan> and to do so i have to suspect the question marks actually aren't
17:33:09 <Gregor> Also, hm, drinking age is that high in Norway?
17:33:21 <Gregor> I thought in most of Europe, it was like non-distilled at 6 and distilled at 12.
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17:34:59 <oerjan> among european countries, norway is pretty conservative in some respects
17:35:02 <Sgeo> Thank you alise and hiato
17:35:31 <alise> Gregor: in the uk it is 16. i think
17:35:41 <oerjan> i think our alcohol laws are the strictest in europe. the alcohol taxes _certainly_ are. ;)
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17:38:31 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Drinking_age_by_country.svg
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17:38:48 <oerjan> although the norwegian color is for distilled liquor
17:40:18 <oerjan> spain, italy and greece are lower, portugal isn't available
17:40:52 <oerjan> albania has no law, possibly
17:43:01 * oerjan tries a larger version
17:43:09 <oerjan> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Drinking_age_by_country.svg/2000px-Drinking_age_by_country.svg.png
17:43:40 <oerjan> kosovo doesn't seem to be separate from serbia in that map, afaict
17:44:21 <oerjan> (which is blue for 18+)
17:44:44 <hiato> Yeah, looks like one ountry there
17:47:36 * oerjan sees an island east of madagascar marked as orange
17:53:22 <oerjan> (which is not one of the listed colors)
18:08:15 <alise> anyone want to think about SPECIALISATION ?! 111puie4t
18:11:06 <alise> THEORETIC UNTHEORETIC, OERJAN.
18:13:18 <alise> THEOHERETIC THEOUNHERETIC UNTHEOHERETIC
18:14:27 <oerjan> HERE, ORTHOPEDIC HETERODOXIC RETROTHEORETICIANS
18:15:46 <alise> Retrotheohereticians.
18:15:58 <alise> People who are heretical with their opinions about past theoretical works.
18:16:58 <oerjan> well it's all greek to me
18:20:49 <alise> Retrotheohereticians sounds like something out of some really bad nerdcore.
18:22:30 <oerjan> you're aware that -theo- is not the same as -theor- ?
18:26:28 <oerjan> the program's a bit rotten
18:26:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, quite, I'm installing ubuntu hardy in a chroot now, there are some indications that will work
18:30:48 <Sgeo> What, exactly, is comex's involvement with iPhone stuff?
18:31:28 <oerjan> comex: you have been lied to
18:31:36 <comex> oerjan: by whom? :p
18:31:40 <alise> Sgeo: you mean that he's in #iphone-dev?
18:31:50 <alise> presumably he has an iphone, and either jailbreaks it (probably) or uses the proper SDK (unlikely)
18:31:59 <Sgeo> I notice that on Twitter, he's always talking and being mkentioned in iPhone related stuff
18:32:04 <alise> are you trying to get assurance that buying an iPhone is just fine and you can sleep at night with the recent TOS changes? :)
18:32:14 <comex> my involvement is that I'm making a jailbreak.
18:32:20 <alise> gee i guess he works for apple
18:32:26 <alise> because people talk to him about iphones
18:32:33 <alise> can't be just some random guy fucking with an iphone
18:32:53 <Sgeo> alise, it seemed more like a random guy _doing something important_ with an iPhone
18:33:05 <alise> JAILBREAKING IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANTANCE
18:33:08 <alise> comex is practically world-famous
18:33:32 <alise> you know it's true
18:36:59 <alise> can you get transparent touchsurfaces?
18:37:01 <alise> a touchscreen without the screen
18:38:17 <Sgeo> Better yet would be a touchscreen that's transparent in parts that aren't displaying anything
18:38:55 <alise> my idea was to put an eink display behind it
18:39:00 <alise> but yours would make that even better
18:39:07 <alise> because you can't really have selective backlight
18:39:13 <alise> with transparent slots when there's no pixels or something
18:39:15 <alise> with eink underneath
18:44:08 <Sgeo> Colored eInk sounds fun
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18:44:57 <alise> Transparent touch-sensitive panel - Patent 4700025
18:44:58 <alise> by M Hatayama - 1987 - Cited by 9 - Related articles
18:44:58 <alise> The transparent touch-sensitive panel of claim 1, wherein said uneven surface has 100 to 10000 protrusions of 0.5 to 5 μm high per cm2. ...
18:44:58 <alise> www.freepatentsonline.com/4700025.html
18:45:01 <alise> Patents, darn, and old, so hmm.
18:45:17 <alise> I want a capacitative, transparent touch surface.
18:45:23 <pikhq> comex: Would you happen to have done anything on the Wii?
18:47:00 <pikhq> Nice work on Bannerbomb.
18:55:50 <alise> i jailbroke this channel
19:01:08 <alise> YOU GUYS DON'T BELIEVE ME
19:01:13 <alise> i totally overflowed its fuzucking buffer yeah.
19:02:20 * pikhq will overflow your horse's name
19:03:29 <oerjan> but it has such a nice flowing mane!
19:04:20 <alise> THAT'S NOT THE ONLY PART OF A HORSE YOU OVERFLOW ON A REGULAR BASIS LOL.
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19:14:37 <alise> ais523: any esolang news?
19:14:42 <alise> bsmntbombdood: are you still using that ubercomputer?
19:15:00 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=17445&oldid=17417 this is utterly pointless
19:15:09 <alise> i would but i'm god.
19:15:14 <alise> (so it wouldn't be fair)
19:16:20 <alise> bsmntbombdood: the one i specced up and you bought
19:16:40 <alise> has it broken yet :)
19:17:04 <alise> i don't /entirely/ believe you...
19:17:21 <alise> is the quantum coprocessor still accessing the qubit ram without errors?
19:17:57 <bsmntbombdood> i really think i should have gone with dual quantum coprocessors
19:18:32 <alise> the newest pi calculating algorithms have to factor a large number /and/ do a reverse lookup in a database simultaneously
19:18:33 <alise> so i can see how that would be a problem
19:19:13 <alise> I'd buy a new heatsink at the same time, because then you could run the fan a lot slower too
19:19:28 <ais523> also, where do you get quantum coprocessors?
19:19:29 <alise> quiet fan + good heatsink = $50, $60?
19:19:37 <alise> ais523: It's a secret.
19:19:48 <bsmntbombdood> i really want megahalems but i don't think they'll clear all the ram slots
19:19:48 <alise> you need a big case for the cooling system though
19:19:53 <alise> (and a government grant)
19:19:59 <alise> bsmntbombdood: yeah the megahalems are massive
19:20:13 <alise> well they are very securely tightened, but yes, they're crazy
19:20:33 <alise> you can get mid-size heatsinks though, and unless you're obsessive about noise like I am it should be just fine
19:20:40 <bsmntbombdood> it does look like people have used thermalight ultra-120s with this board though
19:20:56 <alise> i still haven't bought mine btw :P
19:21:03 <alise> concentrating on moving country first of course.
19:22:49 <bsmntbombdood> it sounds like both coolers can be made super quiet
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19:24:59 <alise> bsmntbombdood: if you're going for tranquility you'll want to get a quieter PSU, too; and maybe even replace the case fans
19:25:03 <bsmntbombdood> going to replace the case fans too, should be able to make it pretty quiet
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19:26:38 <alise> what os are you running on it? and are you actually utilising the computational power? :P
19:28:06 <alise> wonder what's the most powerful solid state machine you could do...
19:28:12 <alise> would be unnerving, not knowing whether it's on :)
19:28:18 <alise> solid state psu is the hardest thing there
19:28:20 <alise> they just don't make them
19:29:52 <alise> http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/psus-501-600/x-xp600-fl "mostly fanless"
19:30:12 <alise> http://www.scan.co.uk/Product.aspx?WebProductID=644060&source=froogle again "mostly fanless"
19:30:24 <alise> "The NightJar Fanless PSU series is available in two flavors, 300W and 450W. I'll be reviewing the Nightjar 450W Zero dBA Fanless Power Supply (SST-ST45NF) which peaks at 500W and this is more than enough power for a HTPC or a silent gaming build. This PSU uses solid state Capacitors which results in cleaner more reliable power than cheap capacitors found in many other PSUs on the market. The housing is made from thick aluminum and it acts as a heastink si
19:30:25 <alise> nce this PSU does have a fan to keep it cool. It also has plenty of ventilation holes, but it's crucial to have excellent case ventilation to insure this PSU gets adequate cooling. Watch the video to find out more."
19:30:28 <alise> no actual links though, helpful
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19:34:04 <pikhq> alise: You can actually get PSUs that use an external brick. ;)
19:34:22 <alise> bsmntbombdood: ah which is it
19:34:28 <alise> not the nexus 420 one is it?
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19:35:02 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/Coolermaster_Silent_Pro_M700W
19:35:24 <alise> 700w is a bit excessive for your stuff.
19:35:41 <alise> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=silverstone_nightjar_450&num=1 hey an /actual/ fanless psu
19:38:36 <pikhq> Man. There's an x86 emulator in Java... That appears to work at tolerable speeds.
19:38:39 <alise> your system will consume like 550w tops i bet
19:39:06 <pikhq> (20% of full-speed. Which seems slow until you realise that 200MHz is still quite usable for many OSes.)
19:39:53 <alise> [c] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:39:53 <alise> [0] := [0] + 1 + ([c] == 0 ? 1 : 0);
19:39:58 <alise> | is bitwise or, ~ is complement
19:40:02 <alise> you guys think this is tc?
19:40:05 <alise> semantics in english:
19:40:31 <alise> (a,b,c) means take bitwise OR [a] and [b]; then put its complement in [c]. if [c] is then 0, skip the next instruction.
19:40:59 <alise> Then what about this:
19:41:09 <alise> (a,b) means take bitwise OR [a] and [b]; then put its complement in [b]. if [b] is then 0, skip the next instruction.
19:41:36 <pikhq> "Skip the next instruction"? Well, that'd certainly be a *pain* to do actual jumps with.
19:41:52 <Deewiant> pikhq: You can always modify [0] directly with (foo,bar,0)
19:41:55 <alise> RSSB does it, pikhq
19:42:00 <alise> and what Deewiant said
19:42:08 <alise> I might just remove the [0] bit
19:42:14 <alise> but what about the two-instruction one?
19:42:18 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'm not saying it'd be impossible. Just a pain.
19:42:25 <alise> (a,b) means take bitwise OR [a] and [b]; then put its complement in [b]. if [b] is then 0, skip the next instruction.
19:42:29 <Deewiant> Well, OISCs tend to be a pain anyway
19:42:33 <alise> I think this should be about as TC as the three-instruction one.
19:44:35 <alise> so here's the ultimate version
19:44:44 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:45:21 <Deewiant> Probably as TC as the original (a,b,c) one
19:45:31 <alise> Which is probably TC.
19:45:35 <alise> So two layers of probably.
19:45:38 <alise> So about half the probability.
19:45:41 <Gregor> http://www.kfc.com/doubledown/ GOD BLESS AMERICA
19:45:57 <alise> But that's still 50%!
19:46:02 <alise> Well actually a bit less!
19:46:05 <Deewiant> alise: But, if you'd posted only that one, I'd've said only "Probably".
19:46:08 <alise> But do you believe that one is TC?
19:46:16 <alise> You should be more specific :P
19:46:48 <Deewiant> It looks like it might be TC, but I'm not an OISC expert
19:47:03 <alise> Guess I just have to try and write programs in it.
19:47:39 <Deewiant> The easiest proof would probably implementing a known-TC OISC
19:47:48 <alise> Well, let's see; the only way to jump in this would be setting b=0.
19:47:56 <alise> [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]);
19:48:03 <alise> [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]) + 1;
19:48:18 <alise> ~(a|b) = (~a)&(~b) right?
19:48:25 <alise> DeMorgan's laws surely apply to bitwise operations.
19:48:40 <alise> [0] := ((~[a]) & (~[0])) + 1
19:48:41 <oerjan> alise: shouldn't you use [0] := [0] + 2; if an instruction has two operands?
19:48:43 <alise> Well, that is troubling.
19:48:49 <alise> oerjan: Er, yes, thanks.
19:49:01 <alise> Anyway, so, this doesn't seem very helpful
19:49:34 <oerjan> heh, to do a jump you need to know the current ip
19:49:39 <alise> If we say that [a] is ~x, then we have ~(x | [0]) I think
19:49:54 <alise> oerjan: well you can do that of course
19:49:55 <Deewiant> You always know the current ip
19:49:58 <oerjan> and you can only jump to locations that are a subset of the complement bits
19:50:01 <Deewiant> Your code just isn't position-independent
19:50:11 <alise> oerjan: that's the issue, really
19:50:35 <oerjan> oh, but that can be fixed by going via ip 0!
19:50:58 <alise> no it's okay we can move the ip
19:51:00 <AnMaster> ais523, do you happen to know any software that lets me profile TLB misses?
19:51:02 <alise> to say [-1] = [big]
19:51:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not even sure what your question means
19:51:19 <ais523> I'm aware of profiling, but not of TLB misses
19:51:37 <ais523> at least, not that acronym
19:51:46 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, you know that the kernel keeps page mappings?
19:52:00 <ais523> AnMaster: obviously, what else could?
19:52:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and the CPU uses them to find the physical page
19:52:14 <ais523> and that seems a plausible feature for modern CPUs
19:52:16 <oerjan> a jump to -1 will be hard unless you are already at 0
19:52:21 <AnMaster> ais523, TLB cache is used to cache the page mappings
19:52:26 <alise> whatever, let's just say the ip is at ip
19:52:37 <alise> now the problem is
19:52:37 <ais523> surely, whether that gets hit or missed will depend on what other programs are running?
19:52:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I want to profile something to find out if hugetlb would help
19:52:44 <alise> how do we write the jumper at location 0?
19:52:50 <AnMaster> (which is an extension to make each page larger)
19:53:22 <AnMaster> because that means fewer TLB entries, which means more memory can be handled with the TLB entries in the cache
19:53:40 <oerjan> if you are at location 0, then (a,ip) will set [ip] = ~ a
19:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, and iirc they are flushed at context switch
19:53:51 <alise> using which format oerjan?
19:53:54 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:53:58 <ais523> alise: your OISC operation seems to be NAND
19:54:02 <AnMaster> ais523, because otherwise you would be able to access those other entries
19:54:19 <alise> so, let's call 0 "jmp"
19:54:24 <alise> so the jumping code is at [jmp]
19:54:32 <alise> now let's also call the location it uses for "loc"
19:54:39 <ais523> alise: yep, good point
19:54:43 <alise> oerjan: how do we jump to 0?
19:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw I'm currently messing with a ubuntu hardy chroot due to bitrot...
19:56:52 <ais523> how do you get bitrot nowadays? use a computer more than 20 years old?
19:57:05 <oerjan> the post-increment makes that _hard_
19:57:14 <AnMaster> ais523, try to run something that doesn't compile on >gcc-4.2 and needs an older libc
19:57:19 <alise> oerjan: should it be pre-increment?
19:57:23 <oerjan> let's put the jump at 2 instead
19:57:23 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and that uses a custom linker script and doesn't link to libc at all
19:57:24 <ais523> AnMaster: is that bitrot, though?
19:57:31 <ais523> or just massively-old-technology?
19:57:50 <alise> how can we jump from two??
19:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is an cycle accurate x86/x86_64 simulator, which *should* be able to give me some number for the TLB misses if only I get it working...
19:58:25 <ais523> AnMaster: ouch, cycle-accuracy is likely to be incredibly slow
19:58:27 <pikhq> ... Cycle accurate x86 simulator?
19:58:34 <oerjan> alise: we can jump from two to any address whose second lsb is zero
19:58:47 <alise> oerjan: well ideally we'd have arbitrary jumps :-)
19:58:48 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't it compile on newer GCC?
19:58:54 <ais523> pikhq: well, you could obviously just throw the VHDL from an x86 processor onto a VHDL simulator, if you had it
19:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, but it isn't too slow, plus it can be setup to run only those functions you are interested in that way
19:58:58 <alise> surely this would work?
19:58:58 <pikhq> ais523: I think it telling that it takes a fairly recent computer to do cycle-accurate SNES emulation on a modern machine. :)
19:58:59 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:58:59 <ais523> so I'm pretty sure Intel and AMD have one
19:59:01 <oerjan> alise: that is _only_ possible from 0
19:59:19 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:59:20 <ais523> pikhq: that doesn't surprise me at all
19:59:23 <alise> could we jump to 0 with this I wonder
19:59:26 <pikhq> ... "on a modern machine"? rm that.
19:59:31 <alise> [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]);
19:59:33 <ais523> hmm, is x86 or the SNES older?
19:59:34 <Sgeo> "cycle accurate"?
19:59:43 <alise> [b] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
19:59:47 <pikhq> ais523: Funny thing is, you need cycle-accurate SNES emulation to do it right.
19:59:48 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me in the least if AnMaster's simulator actually simulated an 8086
19:59:54 <alise> so we have [0] := ~ ([a] | [0]) where [0] >= 2
19:59:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Emulating each individual clock cycle.
19:59:56 <ais523> pikhq: yep, due to lag effects
20:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think it does SSE4 or later, not sure about SSE3
20:00:21 <Sgeo> What's the alternative?
20:00:22 <oerjan> alise: a and b are locations from the ip before increment, right?
20:00:31 <pikhq> There were a large number of weird things that happened on SNES. For instance, you could read the result of a division *before it was done*.
20:00:46 <alise> oerjan: yes. i'll write it out more precisely
20:01:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, similar to delay/force in Scheme?
20:01:14 <Sgeo> Erm, wrong thouyght
20:01:18 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
20:01:30 <alise> pikhq: partially computed?
20:01:41 <Sgeo> Similar to getting a promise of a result before the result is computed, and ... hm?
20:01:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it is also supposed to emulate cache misses correctly. Checking the mailing list there are some @amd.com addresses there so I do believe they have some experts involved
20:02:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also, for completely unknown reasons it seems to require running as root. Not even setting all the capabilities available as file caps works...
20:03:18 <pikhq> Also multiplications.
20:03:27 <oerjan> ok then it would be possible to jump to 0 with say (#-1,ip)
20:03:45 <oerjan> (# for pointer to constant)
20:03:45 <ais523> hmm, has anyone ever created a non-tape-based OISC?
20:04:15 <oerjan> and at 0 you could jump anywhere with (#~target,ip)
20:05:03 <alise> oerjan: ok, so clearly we need a memory location L such that ~[L] = target
20:05:12 <alise> the question is... can we even assign this to things we want :-)
20:05:12 <hiato> AnMaster: is this that Jasmin sim?
20:05:20 <alise> because the /last jump location/ will still be there!!!
20:05:23 <AnMaster> hiato, never heard of that. This one is called ptlsim
20:05:45 <oerjan> alise: um [a] isn't changed, a locations are pretty stable
20:06:02 <AnMaster> hiato, googling Jasmin sim doesn't give any useful results either
20:06:30 <AnMaster> great, ptlsim crashed on cfunge: "Assert false failed in ooocore.cpp:1056 (bool OutOfOrderModel::ThreadContext::handle_exception()) at 6484964 cycles, 6484964 iterations, 6597152 user commits"
20:06:36 <hiato> AnMaster: http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~jasmin/
20:07:06 <alise> [ntarg] must be ~target
20:07:18 <alise> so before our (-1,ip) (to get to 0), we need to set [ntarg] to ~target
20:07:21 <alise> can we do this, generally?
20:07:37 <AnMaster> hiato, that seems pretty useless for doing full simulations
20:07:52 <AnMaster> to quote that page "While not implementing all the functionality of a modern Intel Processor its tutorials allow you to try and understand the basic commands and structures of assembler code."
20:08:04 <hiato> AnMaster: I only caught the last bit of this, so yes, if that,s what you're trying
20:08:06 <oerjan> alise: (#-1, ntarg) (#target, ntarg)
20:08:21 <AnMaster> hiato, I'm trying to profile TLB misses yes
20:08:27 <AnMaster> so I need fairly accurate and detailed stuff
20:08:49 <hiato> AnMaster: Haha, good luck
20:09:04 <AnMaster> hiato, ptlsim is *supposed* to be able to do that
20:09:12 <AnMaster> it is just it is a PITA to get it working
20:09:34 <hiato> AnMaster: Actually, let me know how this works out, genuinely interested
20:09:42 <alise> macro [jmp X] := {ones loc; X loc; ones ip}
20:09:51 <alise> and at the start of the program
20:10:05 <alise> then later in the program
20:10:08 <AnMaster> hiato, also it doesn't seem to read the config file (it doesn't do cmd line args, you have to create ~/.ptlsim/full/path/to/executable.conf and put the flags there
20:10:13 <ais523> ooh, Unicode works in file names in this OS
20:10:22 <ais523> this is clearly a good way to create unique extensions for esolangs
20:10:26 <hiato> AnMaster: lolwut? Where did you find this thing?
20:10:34 <AnMaster> (and they are in -this style -so why -they -arent -read -fromcommand line I don't know(
20:10:48 <alise> oerjan: so we can do unconditional jumps. But can we do conditional jumps?
20:10:54 <alise> we can't just do arithmetic on the jump location...
20:11:01 <hiato> ais523: unicode exts ftw!
20:11:03 <AnMaster> hiato, from an llvm.org publication that mentioned using it
20:11:17 <AnMaster> hiato, there is a full system variant of this that integrates with Xen
20:11:20 <oerjan> alise: let's say we have our flag as a 0,1 value somewhere
20:11:23 <AnMaster> I'm trying the user space variant
20:11:23 <hiato> AnMaster: Ah, cant say I frequent their lists
20:11:29 <ais523> so presumably it's an ext3 or ext2 feature
20:11:42 <AnMaster> hiato, nah it wasn't their mailing list, but one of the articles they put on their site
20:11:54 <hiato> AnMaster: oh, I see
20:11:55 * alise is writing this down, btw
20:12:03 <alise> ais523: all ext just store things raw
20:12:07 <alise> all apart from \0 or /
20:12:15 <oerjan> then we can jump to either of two consecutive locations - hm maybe 0,1 is a bad idea
20:12:16 <ais523> the official file extension for DownRight is now .↳
20:12:18 <alise> so the encoding is just how it's mounted
20:12:19 <AnMaster> now to figure out how to get it to read the cmd line
20:12:39 <AnMaster> ah okay, so sudo doesn't set HOME=/root
20:12:44 <hiato> AnMaster: Re-write :P
20:12:47 <alise> oerjan: maybe 0,-1
20:12:51 <alise> we should really say ~0 instead of -1.
20:13:02 <ais523> given that a DownRight program is conceptually a rectangular grid with arbitrary-size cells, I need to come up with a file format
20:13:13 <ais523> I could make it XML just to annoy people, but I don't really want to
20:13:47 <ais523> hiato: hmm, you mean their table representation?
20:13:48 <AnMaster> hiato, No I'm not messing with that code
20:13:58 <ais523> that actually isn't a bad idea, if aiming for sheer horribleness
20:13:59 <AnMaster> hiato, did you see above about it using a custom linker script?
20:14:04 <ais523> but really I want something simple
20:14:05 <AnMaster> hiato, and not linking system libc
20:14:08 <Sgeo> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/140
20:14:17 <AnMaster> hiato, oh and needing gcc-4.1 or 4.2, no other versions work
20:14:24 <hiato> AnMaster: Oh? Well that's when I walk away
20:14:26 <alise> ais523: no actually what i'd do is use the unicode box drawing characters
20:14:30 <alise> that'd be very pretty
20:14:38 <alise> ais523: failing that, | - and +
20:14:40 <hiato> ais523: Ah well, for another project perhaps
20:14:49 <ais523> CSV is probably the most plausible method, it would at least be easy to parse given what the content of the cells are
20:14:51 <oerjan> alise: ah yes 0,-1 is good
20:14:56 <AnMaster> hiato, and yes I'm in this hardy chroot because of modern libc versions (and modern binutils) breaking it
20:14:59 <alise> ais523: or if you want real minimalism, have two extra chars
20:15:00 <ais523> even better, you could make it flexible
20:15:02 <AnMaster> at least now I get it to do *something*
20:15:09 <AnMaster> under jaunty it just did *nothing*
20:15:11 <ais523> D and R for down and right are the commands
20:15:13 <alise> / goes in top left corner of cell, \ top right
20:15:20 <AnMaster> (so, miscompiled rather than compile error)
20:15:34 <ais523> the first thing that isn't D or R that's encountered is column separator
20:15:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:15:38 <ais523> the second thing is row separtor
20:15:53 <ais523> and row separators are ignored unless at least one column separator is encountered between them
20:16:01 <hiato> AnMaster: Vaporware. Walk. Away.
20:16:09 <ais523> that would work for both CSV and Unicode box drawing
20:16:23 <AnMaster> hiato, not vaporware, it seems to work now
20:16:39 <AnMaster> hiato, it actually gave me tlb stats here
20:16:55 <hiato> AnMaster: c'est ne pa possible
20:17:11 <ais523> hmm, time to go home, I'll have to discover what alise's great idea is later, or else logread
20:17:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:17:19 <alise> ais523: i'm about to paste it!
20:17:23 <alise> i just did all that work
20:17:34 <AnMaster> hiato, sure is, but a PITA to get there
20:17:52 <alise> UNGRATEFUL LOG-READING AIS523: http://pastie.org/941753.txt?key=me9yjscxo1usw2ikcaxba
20:17:54 <alise> code, and table representing it
20:17:59 <alise> key: / is top-left, \ is top-right
20:18:07 <AnMaster> hiato, it is almost as bad as opengenera...
20:18:08 <alise> from this, we can infer all the table cells of arbtirary size, intermingling
20:18:25 <alise> because we know that the first character is the one after /, then the column \ is in delimits the last column for all the lines, and also the last line
20:18:37 <alise> also, I fucked up that table
20:18:39 <hiato> AnMaster: wth is opengenera?
20:18:49 <alise> lisp machine emulator, hiato.
20:19:09 <oerjan> alise: i see some problems with this nor language - there is no simple way to access bits not mentioned in the program, unlimited memory is going to be _hard_, maybe impossible
20:19:10 <hiato> Wouldn't know. Unlike most here, I am not a masochist
20:19:11 <alise> LOG-READING AIS523: revised version - http://pastie.org/941754.txt?key=63e6jwcvawa5kfcjiuuoyg
20:19:32 <alise> oerjan: hmm, how can't you access bits not in the program?
20:19:37 <alise> it's just a matter of storing them in a norable format
20:19:45 <alise> hiato: lisp machines are nice!
20:19:46 <AnMaster> well not lisp machine, since it ran on other hardware
20:20:03 <AnMaster> hiato, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_%28operating_system%29
20:20:07 <alise> it doesn't emulate the mac one
20:20:10 <alise> !sh echo it doesn't emulate the mac one
20:20:10 <Sgeo> Lisp machines don't run Scheme, do they?
20:20:15 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.5076: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
20:20:15 <AnMaster> now opengenera is a program to run that on modern linux
20:20:22 <alise> !sh echo "it doesn't emulate the mac one"
20:20:22 <EgoBot> it doesn't emulate the mac one
20:20:29 <oerjan> alise: by "in the program" i mean _mentioned_ in the program
20:20:36 <alise> wonder if he's already wised up and ignored egobot
20:20:46 <alise> oerjan: ah, because we cannot dereference locations
20:20:58 <AnMaster> iirc opengenera emulates the one for alpha or such, forgot the details
20:21:00 <alise> what about [b] := ~[[a] | [b]];
20:21:09 <alise> that's one extra dereference before ~ing
20:21:36 <AnMaster> anyway, it needs a complicated setup so you will basically ruin the host system (thus do it in a virtual machine), and it broke with modern ubuntu versions
20:21:56 <hiato> alise: Can you give a quick summary of where this OISC is at?
20:22:13 <alise> hiato: basically the idea is to have it based on a logical operation
20:22:15 <oerjan> alise: if the program contains no values outside -128, 127 and is also stored in there then the _only_ way to get outside is by running off the edge - and we _cannot_ initialize the outside memory first
20:22:19 <hiato> AnMaster: You lost me at the word lisp ;)
20:22:34 <AnMaster> hiato, and the complex setup included stuff like nfs and ntp to localhost iirc
20:22:52 <AnMaster> hiato, you can ask alise for more details, iirc once had it working too
20:22:54 <alise> oerjan: ouch. why that range?
20:23:25 <pikhq> alise: 8-bit twos complement
20:23:26 <oerjan> alise: it's the set of integers for which all bits past the eighth are equal
20:23:37 <alise> pikhq: I didn't say 8bit though
20:23:58 <oerjan> alise: it was just an example, -65536 .. 65535 would have the same property
20:24:08 <oerjan> and -2^n .. 2^n-1 in general
20:24:35 <alise> oerjan: but more dereferencing wouldn't fix it, would it?
20:24:52 <oerjan> alise: you cannot dereference something you cannot mention
20:25:03 <alise> i mean in the instruction set
20:25:18 <alise> [b] := [~([a] | [b])]
20:25:23 <alise> [b] := ~[[a] | [b]]
20:26:00 <Sgeo> <3 Calculus the Easy Way
20:26:34 <oerjan> alise: if you are going to get outside the range, then something inside the range must refer to something outside it, _or_ you must run off the edge and have the part outside preinitialized
20:26:45 <alise> (finite) calculus isn't hard!
20:26:46 <oerjan> alise: essentially you need an infinite memory setup
20:26:58 <alise> oerjan: heh, like the 2,3 tm
20:27:12 <AnMaster> hiato, you want to hear something really scary: Even though this thing links no standard libraries, it uses C++. It has it's own subset of STL included. And parts of klibc
20:27:18 <alise> how complex does the setup need to be, I wonder?
20:27:30 <Sgeo> There's a newer edition? o.O
20:27:31 <AnMaster> this STL is not the GNU STL either
20:27:50 <oerjan> alise: probably not that hard
20:27:59 <AnMaster> which is not completely compatible (different name space for example)
20:28:03 <alise> oerjan: would it be easier with nand?
20:28:07 <alise> an infinite memory setup is kinda lame
20:29:29 <hiato> AnMaster: wutlol? srsly? This thing is messed up man
20:29:53 <oerjan> alise: nand and nor are essentially the same here i think
20:29:55 <Sgeo> ...different name space?
20:30:10 <Sgeo> ...you can't possibly mean what I think you.. damn
20:30:16 <alise> what about or/and without the not? I guess that's even worse
20:30:25 <alise> AnMaster: that's not strange
20:30:27 <alise> even EA do that for their games
20:30:31 <alise> the stl is slow and sucky
20:30:41 <oerjan> alise: it's really about the fact that there is no interference between different bits in your operations, except for the ip increment
20:30:42 <AnMaster> hiato, but I have been unable to locate anything else to profile TLB misses with
20:30:58 <alise> oerjan: yeah... ugh
20:30:59 <alise> and this was going so well
20:31:04 <AnMaster> hiato, and I *need* to know where and if I should try to use hugetlb pages in this program
20:31:07 <oerjan> and all bitwise boolean operations have that property
20:31:11 <alise> oerjan: I assume the original, check-if-0-and-skip, three argument one is better?
20:31:12 <alise> or the same, maybe...
20:31:24 <AnMaster> but premature optimisation is bad
20:31:44 <oerjan> alise: was that also bitwise? if so probably the same
20:31:46 <hiato> AnMaster: yeah, I cant say I've really been looking, and nothing springs to mind... pen and paper? :P But seriously, I'm not sure, but best of luck
20:32:01 <alise> [c] := ~ ([a] | [b]);
20:32:01 <alise> [0] := [0] + 3 + ([c] == 0 ? 2 : 0);
20:32:26 <oerjan> alise: oh hm it occured to me, what _does_ a sequence of (0,0) actually do?
20:32:48 <alise> [0] := ~([0] | [0]);
20:32:53 <alise> [0] := ~([0] + 2);
20:32:55 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:33:11 <alise> at which point it will go somewhere entirely unrelated to where you were at the start
20:33:37 -!- cheater2 has joined.
20:33:38 <oerjan> well if ip != 0 then that won't do anything much
20:34:18 <alise> it will not do much in any case!
20:34:47 <Mathnerd314> hmm... are there any esolangs with type systems?
20:34:54 <oerjan> indeed. i had hoped that by some coincidence you'd jump inside the original range _after_ having put information there about the outside
20:35:26 <alise> Mathnerd314: Haskell /ouch/
20:35:35 <alise> more seriously, yes, such as faces of the lambda cube; they're only retroactively esolangs, though
20:35:40 <oerjan> on the other hand, that seems to me like in a nutshell what you want to do for the infinite memory setup
20:35:43 <alise> Mathnerd314: C++ :-)
20:36:08 <pikhq> C++'s type system *is* an esolang.
20:36:08 <Mathnerd314> C++ is not an esolang, according to the esolang wiki
20:36:11 <oerjan> at each 2^n location, you put essentially a code to do that.
20:36:20 <pikhq> A Turing tarpit, even.
20:36:35 <oerjan> lessee, (ip, x) would be a good start.
20:37:15 <alise> Mathnerd314: it's WRONG
20:37:20 <oerjan> and then perhaps (#-1, ip).
20:37:54 <oerjan> alise: it is possible that putting a sequence ip x #-1 ip at the start of every 2^n boundary is enough
20:38:00 <AnMaster> hiato, found the issue with the file btw, out of date documentation
20:38:23 <alise> oerjan: Yes, but it's a bit of a Cheat.
20:38:35 <oerjan> then you jump back to 0, having set [x] to a pointer to the outside
20:39:00 <oerjan> and then you can extract the new fresh bit from [x] :)
20:39:25 <alise> new bits, freshly squeezed
20:39:27 <oerjan> alise: sure it's a cheat but it's much simpler than what ais523 did for t-2,3 i'm sure
20:39:31 <hiato> AnMaster: how did you manage that?
20:39:50 <AnMaster> hiato, manage what? figuring out what I was supposed to do instead?
20:39:57 <AnMaster> well, grepping source for references to this file
20:40:04 <AnMaster> (surely it has to read the file somewhere)
20:40:13 <AnMaster> noticing there *were* no such references
20:40:34 <AnMaster> checking commits since that release which *had* such references
20:40:55 <AnMaster> and then figuring out what it was supposed to do instead (pass them on cmd line arg!!!)
20:41:02 <AnMaster> (at least that is somewhat saner than the old variant!)
20:41:15 <AnMaster> (if only they would update the docs too)
20:42:36 <Mathnerd314> so no real esolangs with type systems... because types are impossible to experiment with?
20:42:45 <AnMaster> hiato, oh btw this can automatically generate comparsion tables for various statistics. In plain text and latex
20:43:02 <AnMaster> hiato, like different parameters to the simulation
20:43:12 <Sgeo> My step-mother: "You see the nice weather? God decided to give you nice weather on your birthday." I think she's just being annoying, but she might be serious
20:43:12 <AnMaster> or different binaries with same parameters
20:43:29 <AnMaster> hiato, yes, quite. But yeah a PITA to get it working indeed
20:43:36 <hiato> Sgeo: I dont think god is though
20:43:43 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: i had this insane idea once of a combinator language with overloaded monads like haskell
20:43:54 <AnMaster> hiato, they fail at the docs a bit, too few linebreaks in the pdf
20:43:56 <oerjan> nothing fleshed out though
20:44:22 <hiato> AnMaster: Yes, this was a definite walk. away. now. proggy
20:44:42 <AnMaster> hiato, nah, there was just in one place, and that seems fixed in the latex master file in git head
20:44:48 <hiato> oerjan: sounds deceptively interesting
20:44:52 <oerjan> basically slightly like unlambda, except c wasn't just call-with-current-continuation, but actually was typed in the Cont monad
20:45:30 <oerjan> and ` was not just application, but like haskell =<<
20:45:34 <hiato> AnMaster: impressive stuff, but le's see if it actually works now ;)
20:45:53 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: well, I'm thinking of a "cool" esolang where (<$>) = (.) = ($) = id
20:45:56 <AnMaster> hiato, well yes it does, I'm just trying to make sense of the statistics currently
20:46:12 <AnMaster> hiato, as in, ptlsim (the actual simulator) works
20:46:35 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: every value would be in a monad when put on the _right_ of an application (=<<) but would be unwrapped into a function on the left
20:46:35 <AnMaster> hiato, but ptlstats (takes the data dump and makes something human readable from it) I haven't figured out yet
20:46:50 <pikhq> http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,692001,00.html Google Translate? Usable? Hah!
20:47:00 <AnMaster> hiato, well ptlstats works, but I need to figure out how to get the part of it that I need in a meaningful format
20:47:19 <pikhq> It's not far from "my nipples explode with delight"!
20:47:29 <hiato> heh, welcome to the silly wortd of machine code dumps
20:47:35 <oerjan> (the language name is liMonade, btw)
20:48:13 <AnMaster> hiato, as in, I can get it to dump the data format in a somewhat more readable format, but it seems to be miss per cache type per instruction (as in, not per instruction in the program, but merged for all instructions of a given type, say, div, add, or whatever)
20:48:19 <AnMaster> which is not quite the stat I want
20:49:12 <alise> Mathnerd314: that's just concatenative right?
20:49:54 <Mathnerd314> not really; it's something like loosely-typed Haskell
20:49:55 <hiato> AnMaster: meh. How does it sim? With a pipeline and all? clock cycles?
20:50:01 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: btw the suggestion of making (.) = (<$>) i've heard on #haskell before. in fact i think lambdabot implemented it for a while.
20:50:18 <alise> <pikhq> It's not far from "my nipples explode with delight"!
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20:50:41 <AnMaster> hiato, it is cycle accurate and you can get it to dump pipeline state for every cycle (the manual warns that the dump file will be huge if you do that)
20:50:45 <alise> Mathnerd314: well having function application be composition...
20:50:51 -!- cal153 has quit.
20:50:52 <alise> makes little sense.
20:51:04 <AnMaster> hiato, also it can switch to native execution for the parts you are uninterested in
20:51:14 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: mixing $ in is going to give some ambiguity though, even though it's the Identity monad
20:51:14 <AnMaster> hiato, like, only do the full thing for a few functions
20:51:45 <oerjan> alise: ($) = (<$>) is the identity monad i think
20:51:45 <AnMaster> hiato, oh and there is a version that integrates with Xen to do full system simulation, and the website says a kvm-based variant is currently being worked on
20:51:51 <hiato> AnMaster: this thing actually sounds pretty useful
20:52:03 <oerjan> or is it (<*>), maybe those are all the same in it
20:52:25 <AnMaster> hiato, I have only tried user space simulation, but considering how tricky THAT was... I can only imagine the pain of the full system ones
20:53:08 <AnMaster> (And I still haven't figured out what exact parameters I need to ptlstats)
20:53:21 <hiato> Haha, yeah. If the docs are anything to go by...
20:55:10 <AnMaster> hiato, I think I figured part of it out. The stats is represented as a tree. So I want something like /ooocore/dcache/<something>
20:56:23 <Mathnerd314> alise: it's overloaded juxtaposition, basically. f $ x is the same as f x, and I want f . g to be f g as well
20:57:25 <hiato> AnMaster: Really? Hmmm, well good luck finding those nodes then... that is a little silly
20:57:40 * Sgeo is worried about becoming a Google fanboy
21:01:19 <AnMaster> hiato, oh btw it does simulate an out of order core
21:01:35 <AnMaster> or optionally a sequential one
21:01:41 <AnMaster> there are various settings related to both
21:02:36 <AnMaster> hiato, and the tree system is quite sane
21:02:41 <AnMaster> since there are a lot of different stats
21:03:02 <AnMaster> doing a "flat" system would be impossible to manage
21:03:03 <hiato> AnMaster: where di you get this thing again?
21:03:28 <hiato> AnMaster: Perhaps, I envisaged a nice file prefix system, but hey
21:03:31 <AnMaster> hiato, well www.ptlsim.org is where, but before you asked how I found it, which was from llvm
21:03:47 <AnMaster> (or rather a publication of them)
21:03:56 <AnMaster> hiato, I'm using git head here
21:04:04 <Sgeo> alise, do you know anything about eBuddy?
21:04:13 <Sgeo> I'm wondering if it might be malicious
21:04:38 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:05:15 <alise> Sgeo: It's old and fine but, you know, shitty.
21:05:24 <alise> meebo is better imo
21:05:36 <Sgeo> Meebo keeps disconnecting
21:05:46 <Sgeo> If eBuddy is safe, I think I'll try it
21:05:53 <Sgeo> [I'm talking about on my phone btw]
21:06:56 <AnMaster> hiato, oh yeah and don't make it dump a snapshot every 100 cycles (I meant 1000 but typoed)
21:07:18 <AnMaster> hiato, the data dump I got was 552MB, and that was just for ./program --help
21:09:36 <Sgeo> "After using ebuddy, my hotmail account got attacked and it kept sending spam msgs to my entire contact list."
21:11:46 <Sgeo> from WOT: "They keep and can use you password of account"
21:12:46 <AnMaster> okay now this is strange, why are there multiple cpu nodes in there
21:13:17 <AnMaster> hiato, either it does SMP simulation and then I'm extremely impressed, or vcpu0 vcpu1 and so on mean something else
21:14:26 <hiato> AnMaster: that sounds a lot like smp to me..
21:14:44 <AnMaster> but should there be an option to control number of cpus you want then...
21:15:00 <hiato> Heh, time to read the... oh wait.
21:15:17 <alise> <Sgeo> [I'm talking about on my phone btw]
21:15:31 <alise> also, I think those are unrelated to ebuddy.
21:15:43 <Sgeo> Yes, but if eBuddy on the web is malicious, then the app would also be malicious
21:15:47 <alise> tons of people get msn viruses by being retards; the latter has no evidence provided
21:16:30 <hiato> AnMaster: the missing word was docs :P
21:16:35 <Sgeo> There are people who think geocities is malicious because one site is malicious
21:16:47 <AnMaster> hiato, I wondered if it was "source" or "docs"
21:17:49 <AnMaster> hiato, I'm building git head docs atm, lets see if that is better than website
21:18:06 * AnMaster watches pdflatex output scroll by
21:18:49 <alise> get a non-ebuddy app then
21:19:00 <AnMaster> hiato, so, the Xen one does SMP/SMT it says
21:19:47 <hiato> Well, it's donig it so far as I can tell, but what do those dumps hold? Perhaps theyre empty
21:20:32 <AnMaster> hiato, perhaps. Note it is NOT the ptlsim.log file
21:20:58 <AnMaster> (well, foo.stats is probably a better name)
21:21:10 <hiato> heh, yep. Ok, I see
21:21:46 <AnMaster> hiato, because here it needs sudo to run
21:21:59 <AnMaster> the mailing list indicates this is needed on ubuntu and a few other distros
21:22:14 <Sgeo> Meebo does seem to be a nicer interface, but it simply doesn't WORK
21:22:51 <AnMaster> oh god, this is nasty (reading source code that defines the stats tree)
21:23:35 <AnMaster> hiato, know ghc? think "ghc evil mangler" kind of nasty level...
21:24:01 <Sgeo> I can't seem to add my AIM account to eBuddy
21:27:41 <Sgeo> eBuddy doesn't warn me that I'm offline
21:31:40 <AnMaster> hiato, oh it seems it need full system simulation to do TLB stats properly, that explains the strange numbers (which were reasonable for the first small "dummy" test
21:31:57 <AnMaster> well, maybe I'll try that later, the other stats are still interesting
21:32:33 <AnMaster> that seems to be to make it use real tlb from the cpu
21:32:40 <AnMaster> I'm not sure about tlb for user space
21:33:38 <AnMaster> ah no, user space version do not model it
21:33:46 <AnMaster> and nah I'm not doing Xen this evening
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21:40:27 <oerjan> who the heck is dr nick
21:45:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does Facebook discriminate against people who eschew mobile phones?
21:46:53 <alise> Facebook discriminates against intelligence.
21:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, but I wouldn't have *any* friends if I didn't use it.
21:47:58 <alise> You've got us, man.
21:48:27 <Phantom_Hoover> You suffer the crippling disadvantage of knowing more about one of my fields of interest than me.
21:50:09 <pikhq> Yeah, that'll happen. Is called "life". :P
21:50:43 * Sgeo uses Facebook >.>
21:51:19 * pikhq has for 12 freaking years now.
21:51:59 * Phantom_Hoover once had a theory that everyone was a reincarnation of myself.
21:52:29 * oerjan recalls seeing that theory somewhere recently
21:52:43 <oerjan> with a scifi reference that wasn't named
21:53:04 <oerjan> (if it wasn't here, probably reddit)
21:53:29 <oerjan> yeah but that was in a previous life *ducks*
21:54:14 <oerjan> i cannot admit what i don't remember
21:54:56 <oerjan> doesn't matter, it's 1,2,3,... everywhere
21:56:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> I must know all.
21:56:03 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Damned Gedel...
21:59:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:00:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:02:25 <alise> I am bloody determined to come up with an OISC.
22:02:38 <alise> oerjan: hey I think my language could be salvaged
22:02:39 <alise> if we kept the basic
22:02:40 <Gregor> Do you have something against subtract-and-branch-if-negative?
22:02:45 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
22:02:46 <alise> but then added more mutation
22:02:49 <alise> with an extra dereference
22:02:55 <alise> Gregor: It's called research, man.
22:03:00 <alise> Also, RSSB is better, having only one operand.
22:04:14 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
22:04:14 <alise> [[[0]-2]] := something
22:04:27 <alise> since [0]-2 doesn't normally mutate with this, it lets us have something reliableish
22:04:33 <alise> only question is what's something, and is this enough
22:06:02 <alise> [[0]-1] := ~ ([[0]-2] | [[0]-1]);
22:06:02 <alise> [[[0]-2]] := [[0]-1];
22:06:08 <alise> then we get a free copy to a dynamic addres with every instruction
22:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> RSSB just looks like the MOV system used in the Wireworld computer.
22:09:25 <alise> it's not mov is it?
22:09:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: mmap'd functionality is not unusual for OISC stuff. ;)
22:10:37 <alise> I REQUIRE OERJAN'S BOTHERSOME REALITY CRUSHING MY DREAMS
22:11:35 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:12:56 <zzo38> How often in any programming can use "same number for multiple purposes"?
22:13:27 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:13:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Context por favor?
22:14:19 <zzo38> I mean like the "stroker.gb" game, I wrote, it used 0x9C for clear screen tile instead of 0x00 so that the register can be used for multiple purposes at once
22:14:51 <zzo38> And in one solitaire card program I write, it uses ASCII 32 (space) for wildcard so that it can be checked by LTRIM$ function if a pile consists entirely of wildcards
22:15:40 <zzo38> And, in code-golf, the C program is given no command-line parameters so the solution can be written: main(i){while(putchar(i++)<127);}
22:16:03 <zzo38> Yes, it might be similar in many ways
22:16:36 <pikhq> Ah. It's most common in various forms of golfing.
22:16:55 <pikhq> Or at least space optimisation.
22:17:17 <pikhq> Which *used* to be fairly common. Now, "space optimisation" consists of "-Os".
22:17:24 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: cat >a.out is not so good for binary files
22:17:35 <zzo38> A hex-editor would be used instead.
22:17:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Won't handle 0x00 right.
22:18:03 <zzo38> If you have GameBoy or GameBoy emulator, you can check this game and you can see how it is used: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/GameForth/game/stroker.zip
22:18:16 <zzo38> However some bugs in some emulators mean it has to be longer than it should be
22:18:20 <pikhq> Erm. No, wait, EOF is differentiable from other characters. Never mind. :P
22:18:29 * pikhq has done too much Brainfuck.
22:19:32 <pikhq> With 8-bit cell Brainfuck, you have 2^8-1 choices for EOF.
22:19:38 <pikhq> Of those, 0 is the easiest to test against.
22:19:58 <zzo38> I prefer 0 for EOF on brainfuck, but some uses 255 because of the C program.
22:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but I always thought of it as inelegant. 0 is still a valid ASCII character.
22:20:14 <oerjan> alise: the problem is not copying to "dynamic" addresses, which you already could do perfectly well, the problem is constructing any value outside the initially provided range
22:20:37 <pikhq> *All* possible values are valid characters for normal IO in 8-bit Brainfuck.
22:21:03 <pikhq> You only start getting truly "complete" IO in greater-than-8-bit Brainfuck.
22:21:24 <pikhq> (or hacks, such as, say, interleaving IO with an "EOF" flag or some such.)
22:22:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:03 <zzo38> If I make some changes in Linux I would have to add a few additional signals, such as SIGBREAK SIGCORE SIGDC1 SIGOKILL and so on.
22:24:32 <zzo38> Where SIGOKILL is like SIGKILL but overrides everything that can prevent SIGKILL from working including init process, uninterruptable sleeping, etc
22:25:20 <zzo38> Wikipedia says it doesn't.
22:26:50 <zzo38> It says SIGKILL don't kill blocked state programs, therefore SIGOKILL needs to killed even blocked state programs immediately.
22:27:31 <zzo38> Well, it never always works, is it?
22:27:59 <pikhq> zzo38: SIGKILL does, in fact, kill init.
22:28:08 <pikhq> When init is killed, the kernel panics.
22:28:15 <zzo38> Then Wikipedia is wrong.
22:28:30 <pikhq> Try it. "kill -9 1".
22:28:49 <zzo38> Or maybe it kills init only on some operating systems but on other operating systems, it doesn't.
22:29:13 <Ilari> On Linux, init is special and is immune from SIGKILL iirc.
22:29:42 <Ilari> And killing D-state programs with SIGKILL is technically possible but hairy to implement.
22:29:45 <pikhq> Ilari: Kernel panic.
22:30:32 <Ilari> IIRC, earlier versions didn't have that protection but I first noticed that logic when reading kernel sources.
22:32:22 <zzo38> In addition, SIGOKILL would prevent other programs from being notified by using another signal (such as SIGCHLD), but it can still check normally if a process exists
22:33:40 <alise> <oerjan> alise: the problem is not copying to "dynamic" addresses, which you already could do perfectly well, the problem is constructing any value outside the initially provided range
22:33:43 <alise> er just put it in the source
22:34:35 <Ilari> "kill -9 1" does nothing.
22:35:24 <alise> on os x, kill 1 reboots the system.
22:35:50 <Ilari> Well, that was on Linux 2.6.32...
22:36:59 <oerjan> alise: um i was assuming you were trying to solve the problem of accessing unbounded memory without unbounded pre-initialization, otherwise you have no _need_ for any more modification
22:37:34 <Ilari> Fun tricks: 'clone(9, NULL)'. :-)
22:37:48 <oerjan> i believe your original (a,b) version is perfectly adequate for computation with bounded memory
22:37:57 <zzo38> What is 'clone(9, NULL)'?
22:37:59 <alise> oerjan: not INFINITE preinitialisation
22:38:16 <alise> I want infinite memory + finite but unbounded initialisation
22:38:18 <Ilari> Actually, 'sys_clone(9, NULL)'.
22:38:29 <oerjan> alise: unbounded = infinite in this case
22:38:37 <zzo38> And what is 'sys_clone(9, NULL)'?
22:39:00 <Ilari> Like fork but use SIGKILL on process termination instead of SIGCHLD.
22:39:07 <alise> oerjan: but "any value you like" can go in the source
22:39:15 <alise> this also includes all possible values, because of finite bit size.
22:39:22 <alise> moving it somewhere is the problem
22:39:28 <alise> because I dereference like that
22:39:36 <alise> oerjan: then clearly I need arbitrary bit size
22:39:39 <alise> then there is no problem
22:39:45 <alise> oerjan: only one problem; with bignums, what is "all ones"?
22:40:16 <Ilari> Also using sys_clone(11, NULL); sys_exit(0); and then making the child exit could be fun...
22:40:26 <oerjan> alise: -1 in two's complement
22:40:34 <alise> oerjan: yes, but you can't have infinite sized numbers
22:40:35 <zzo38> Ilari: OK, so, that's what it is, now I know
22:40:38 <alise> this is just bignums
22:41:08 <oerjan> alise: signed bignums corresponds to any bitstring that _eventually_ becomes just 0 (positive) or just 1 (negative)
22:41:45 <alise> yes, but negative memory locations MAKE NO SENSE, BITCH
22:41:47 <oerjan> you cannot _do_ nor on bignums without sign, or something equivalent to it
22:41:48 <alise> ... I don't /think/...
22:42:11 <alise> oerjan: so with arbitrary size bits, this should work fine?
22:42:12 <zzo38> What does sys_clone exactly do, what are its parameters? (Looking on Google doesn't help much)
22:42:33 <oerjan> alise: the initialization problem remains
22:43:56 <oerjan> because if all memory is 0 outside a bounded area of -2^n .. 2^n-1, and all values of cells in that area are also -2^n .. 2^n-1, then there is no way to construct a value outside that range
22:44:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, just infinite-bits
22:44:39 <oerjan> except for [ip], but at the point ip wraps over you are executing only zeros...
22:44:42 <alise> i.e. 0, 1, 2, ..., G_64, ..., xkcd, ...,
22:44:52 <alise> xkcd + your mother's weight in kilograms,
22:45:07 <alise> oerjan: clearly all memory should start at -1 then?
22:45:07 <oerjan> now now, let's not go inconsistently large here
22:45:22 <alise> "and all values of cells in that area are also -2^n .. 2^n-1"
22:45:24 <alise> nothing is bounded
22:45:39 <oerjan> alise: sheesh you are being dense
22:45:45 <alise> oerjan: yes, I know.
22:46:10 <oerjan> if you have _finite_ initialization then there _will_ be some range that all initial values are inside
22:46:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: your mother is far heavier than that.
22:46:20 <alise> also, that is just 2*xkcd
22:47:26 <zzo38> What kind of numbers are G_64 and xkcd
22:47:59 <oerjan> zzo38: G_64 is graham's number, was in guiness book of records at one point as the largest specific number used in math
22:48:25 <alise> zzo38: it's the upper bound on a value that's more likely to be on the order of 20
22:48:36 <zzo38> How can it be used as a number if it is a webcomic?
22:48:43 <alise> zzo38: basically you take arrow notation i.e. x^y is exponentiation x^^y is repeated exponentiation and so on
22:48:47 <alise> then you define numbers with absurd amounts of these
22:48:55 <alise> absurd ^...an absurd number of arrows...^ absurd
22:48:56 <oerjan> xkcd made a comic referring to the even larger number A(G_64,G_64) (where A is the ackermann function)
22:49:04 <alise> and you iterate G_n+1 = substitute G_n for absurd
22:49:08 <alise> take the 64th element
22:49:13 <alise> and you get something huge
22:49:18 <alise> I assume you know what the ackermann function is
22:49:31 <zzo38> Yes, I have heard of ackermann function, I know what it is
22:49:31 <oerjan> zzo38: xkcd didn't invent either G_64 or the ackermann, it's just the kind of geeky stuff xkcd sometimes references
22:49:59 <alise> well, xkcd = A(G_64, G_64); he came up with that
22:50:15 <zzo38> OK, now I can understand why they used it like that
22:50:18 <oerjan> and xkcd is so popular among geeks that once he did it, they named it after the comic
22:50:24 <alise> the great thing is that you can't cause a vast increase in it without resorting to a longwinded procedure
22:50:32 <alise> vast as in relative to its size
22:51:19 <oerjan> incidentally A(G_64,G_64) is less than G_65, or something like that iirc, so putting A's around doesn't really help much
22:52:05 <oerjan> basically G's grow so fast that the ackermann function is insignificant in comparison
22:52:45 <zzo38> I made a solitaire card program, but it doesn't have a picture of Oscar Wilde on the wildcard, and the win screen doesn't have the vector drawing of the baker, the spider, the king. I would need to add these things if someone has the picture?
22:53:40 <zzo38> How many do you A(G_x, G_x) by "xkcd" times if x start A(G_xkcd, G_xkcd) and then x is the new value of the function after each time
22:54:03 <alise> zzo38: I think G grows far faster than that
22:54:17 <alise> because it G_n+1 has G_n arrows as its operation
22:54:23 <alise> and then feeds G_n to both sides
22:54:29 <alise> so not only are the numbers huge, it /constructs/ a huge operation
22:55:50 <zzo38> Like, x'=A(G_x,G_x) x''=A(G_x',G_x')=A(G_A(G_x,G_x),G_A(G_x,G_x)) and so on?
22:55:51 <oerjan> zzo38: i think A(G_n, G_n) <= G_(n+1) for all n, or at least from a very small size
22:56:31 <zzo38> That means surely G_x' is more larger than G_x is?
22:57:11 <oerjan> however, x'' <= G_(x'+1)
22:58:16 <alise> basically your attempts at increasing xkcd are fruitless :D
22:58:48 <zzo38> But that's xkcd''''''''''' must surely be more larger than xkcd'''' ?
22:59:20 <oerjan> oh they're all incomprehensibly larger than the previous, sure
22:59:45 <zzo38> Because xkcd''''''''''' = A(G_xkcd'''''''''',G_xkcd'''''''''')
23:00:28 <alise> Let lol_0 = G_1; lol_n = G_(G_(G_... (n+1 G_s) lol_(n-1)
23:00:39 <alise> Now consider lol_xkcd.
23:01:09 <alise> Wow, you can actually hold that number in your head?
23:01:21 <zzo38> No. but I can consider it.
23:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> That's nothing compared to coppro's Turing-completeness.
23:02:01 <zzo38> What 's coppro's Turing completeness?
23:02:16 <alise> with your powers combined, I am Captain Turing!
23:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> A while ago he said that his brain was Turing-complete.
23:02:28 <alise> And the digits of lol_xkcd ARE...
23:02:44 <zzo38> O, so that's what it means.
23:02:59 <zzo38> In fact I don't even know how to calculate G_ of anything
23:03:55 <oerjan> well writing down the digits of G_1 won't fit in the observable universe, anyway
23:04:09 <alise> The last ten digits of Graham's number are ...2464195387
23:04:14 <alise> didn't know we'd calculated that many.
23:04:35 <zzo38> OK, so you can partially calculate it, I suppose
23:04:47 <oerjan> alise: it's not really that difficult to calculate from the end as far as you wish
23:04:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_theorem#Friedman.27s_finite_form ;; numbers much bigger than graham's
23:05:32 <zzo38> I know I once invented a chess variant where the number of different kind of pieces was googolplex
23:05:46 <alise> zzo38: you know knuth's arrow notation?
23:05:52 <zzo38> Exactly googolplex, not approximate.
23:06:00 <alise> x^y is exponentiation; x^^y is repeated exponentiation; x^^^y is repeated ^^iation; etc
23:06:07 <zzo38> alise: Yes I have seen arrow notation on Wikipedia before, I know what it is
23:06:26 <alise> say G_1 = 3 ^^^^ 3; G_n = 3 (G_n-1 ^s) 3
23:06:31 <alise> then Graham's number is G_64
23:06:54 <zzo38> Of course it is impossible to actually play that chess variant
23:07:08 <oerjan> alise: basically _all_ the G_n numbers end in the same sequence of digits afa our bounded universe is concerned
23:07:28 <zzo38> O, do you mean explain the chess?
23:07:32 <alise> oerjan: ah, clever.
23:07:36 <zzo38> It would take a while to explain
23:07:44 <zzo38> But I can type it later
23:07:52 -!- hiato has joined.
23:08:04 <alise> yeah "This algorithm produces the following 500 rightmost decimal digits of Graham's number (or any tower of more than 500 3s):"
23:08:34 <hiato> AnMaster: power failure. but i'll check the log tomorrow. on my phone now
23:09:20 <zzo38> But, basically, you have a 10x10 board with numbers 0 to 9 to determine how the piece is allowed to move in that direction (chosen by the position on the board) and then you assign digits 0 to 9 to each possible combination of that 10x10 board to determine how the moves of the pieces are combined together with each-other.
23:09:27 <alise> anyway, the number of digits in G_64 could not be written down in the physical universe
23:09:31 <alise> could the number of digits in G_1 be?
23:09:32 -!- hiato has changed nick to hiato-phone.
23:09:38 <alise> it's not /that/ big
23:10:09 <alise> http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/68592.html says no
23:10:13 <zzo38> And that includes all kind of movement such as capturing, non-capturing, promotion, Chinese cannon move, Korean cannon move, leap or ride in any direction and any amount of spaces, restriction of adjacent pieces, and so on.
23:10:14 <alise> what about the log of its log
23:10:34 <oerjan> 3 ^^^^ 3 = 3 ^^^ (3 ^^^ 3), right?
23:11:08 <hiato-phone> Isn't g1 just 3 -3 to the three to the three up arrows- 3? like, seventy billion or something
23:11:14 <alise> oerjan: i think so, yes.
23:11:32 <alise> hiato-phone: g_1 is much bigger than seventy billion
23:11:45 <alise> 3^^^3 = 3^^3^^3 = 3^^7625597484987
23:11:52 <alise> and I don't think you can write a 7625597484987-high power tower
23:12:00 <hiato-phone> Oerjan, three with seventy billion up arrows three
23:12:12 <alise> no, hiato-phone is wrong.
23:12:28 <oerjan> hiato-phone: i think the number of arrows is actually small for G_1
23:13:02 <alise> which is (3^) repeated 7625597484987 (off by one or two) times
23:13:07 <oerjan> G_2 on the other hand, is larger than what you said :D
23:13:16 <hiato-phone> I thought every level was previous level total in up arrows
23:13:19 <alise> G_2 = 3 (G_1 ^s) 3
23:13:26 <alise> yes, but G_1 is the base case
23:13:29 <alise> and it has three arrows.
23:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there was a Horizon documentary a while ago with someone claiming that there was a largest integer.
23:14:02 <alise> were you being dijkstra and expecting everything to start at 0 :-)
23:14:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
23:14:17 <alise> A prominent ultrafinitist.
23:14:27 <alise> He's utterly crazy... but he's done some clever things.
23:14:39 <oerjan> now if you were able to calculate the _first_ digit of G_64 (or even G_1) then I think you'd have it made in mathematics.
23:14:54 <alise> He has a plane geometry textbook that a computer wrote by automatically finding proofs and writing the code for them
23:15:04 <alise> oerjan: well, that's the problem
23:15:08 <oerjan> no modulo tricks to help you there
23:15:09 <alise> calculating the first digit ~= calculating it
23:15:13 <alise> because of, you know, decimal
23:15:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html take a look at it, it's pretty cool
23:15:23 <hiato-phone> Hmm... i could do it in binary with an accuracy of fifty percent off the cuff
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23:16:14 <oerjan> alise: any base other than 3^k would do, i'm sure :)
23:16:32 * pikhq votes for base G_64
23:16:38 <alise> hiato-phone: the first digit is /obviously/ 1 in binary
23:16:50 <alise> oerjan: hey i did it in binary and that's not 3^k
23:16:58 <hiato-phone> In fact, i can guarantee what it is in binary, heh, my bad. trinary with fifty percent
23:17:01 <alise> I'VE GOT IT MAAAAAAAAAADE
23:17:01 <oerjan> alise: you'll be famous!
23:17:14 <alise> what would it be in base 3^k?
23:18:30 <oerjan> but in base 3 it's obviously 1
23:18:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
23:18:35 <oerjan> since it's a power of 3
23:18:53 <hiato-phone> Indeterminable, i agree with alise, at least equivalent to working the entire number out
23:20:01 <oerjan> 3^(3^...) = 3^(3*3*...) = (3^3^k)^... something
23:20:13 <oerjan> so i believe in every 3^3^k base it is one
23:21:05 <alise> you could /probably/ simplify the problem from calculating /all/ of G_1
23:21:17 <alise> but you would have to calculate some large amount of context then somehow prove the rest has no affect on it
23:21:24 <alise> it seems a quite intractable problem
23:21:36 <hiato-phone> I'm not so sure, can you restate that proof type thing? it is possible that there is a power of 3 to the 3 to the k that is not a power of, say, 3 to the 3 to the 3 to the x
23:21:58 <pikhq> I wonder what the *last* digit of G_64 is. :P
23:22:01 <alise> *effect not affect
23:22:06 <oerjan> hiato-phone: G_1 = 3^3^3^3^...huge no. of 3's something
23:22:07 <alise> we know the last 500 digits, easily
23:22:16 <alise> that's why we're talking about it
23:22:25 <alise> pikhq: because after a while, the powers in the tower stop mattering
23:22:29 <alise> because they only change larger digits
23:22:32 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number#Rightmost_decimal_digits_of_Graham.27s_number
23:23:11 <Sgeo> Anyone here using Chrome?
23:23:27 <Sgeo> My school's website just seems to be blank
23:23:36 <hiato-phone> Reminds me of that biggest number contest on xkcd forums back in the day
23:23:38 <oerjan> hiato-phone: which is 3^3^something huge = 3^3^(k+something huge) = 3^(3^k * something huge) = (3^3^k) ^ something huge
23:24:12 <oerjan> where something huge is a natural number in each case
23:24:46 <alise> oerjan: of course all this is just silly because really busy beaver dwarfs A easily
23:24:58 <alise> but stupid people like numbers they can compute! hrmph!
23:25:06 <alise> (says the constructivist)
23:27:14 <hiato-phone> Alise- let s . x = s . x+1 if x is real, x-1 otherwise
23:27:27 <alise> s being some sort of kooky function here?
23:27:36 <alise> also, real as opposed to what, integer? rational? irrational?
23:27:58 <alise> everything is a real apart from complex numbers.
23:28:08 <hiato-phone> Real as defined, well, on wk is a good start i guess
23:28:49 <alise> We should just make a computer program that continually makes up bigger and bigger recursive ways to create numbers
23:28:58 <alise> unbeatable, given long enough
23:28:59 <hiato-phone> Ok, then let me rephrase, if x elem integers
23:29:04 <alise> I propose this one
23:29:09 <pikhq> alise: All reals are finite numbers.
23:29:25 <alise> i = 0; while (true) { printline("#" * i); i++ }
23:29:29 <hiato-phone> I think that s of anything should be as big as integers can get
23:29:35 <alise> pikhq: well infinite as in not infinite, yes...
23:29:41 <alise> although iirc there are models with infinite numbers?
23:29:49 <alise> even for the naturals
23:29:57 <pikhq> The reals are not normally such a model.
23:30:02 <alise> hiato-phone: it's just the "not definable in N words" paradox
23:30:05 <alise> pikhq: the reals are laws
23:30:07 <alise> the model is the model
23:30:16 <pikhq> As I said, "not normally".
23:30:18 <alise> the intended model of the reals has no infinities, but...
23:30:27 <alise> hiato-phone: as soon as you define s, all s(x) become "real"
23:30:28 <oerjan> if there is an infinite model, then there are models of all cardinalities, or something like that
23:30:29 <pikhq> Clearly, if you define the real differently, you get different properties.
23:30:30 <alise> because you can define them easily
23:30:37 <oerjan> *infinite cardinalities
23:30:43 <alise> oerjan: in my world the reals have pi elements.
23:30:47 <alise> pikhq: you fail at understanding models :P
23:30:55 <alise> the reals are defined by the regular definition - pick any one you want -
23:31:00 <alise> this has the intended model, which is what we think we mean
23:31:08 <alise> but there are all sorts of non-standard models, such as ones that are countable
23:31:12 <alise> ones with infinities
23:31:37 <hiato-phone> alise, the result is supposed to be real, by construction, but the 'largest'
23:31:52 <alise> hmm S(n) grows slower than ackermann?
23:31:57 <alise> hmm S(n) grows slower than G?
23:32:58 <hiato-phone> Blag, it's too late-actually early-for this stuff on my phone. cheers all
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23:33:48 * Sgeo has to take a PERL class at some point
23:34:04 <Sgeo> Maybe I should delay that to next year, when I will be taking a different major, and thus might not end up doing PERL
23:35:32 <pikhq> A *class* in Perl?
23:35:45 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:35:48 <pikhq> There's really not much to the language. Well. Except there is a lot to the language. :P
23:36:02 <Sgeo> BCS 316 Perl programming
23:36:21 <pikhq> But it's more "We've got a bunch of operators, a bunch of syntax, and cheap regexps" than "there's a massive number of unusual concepts to it".
23:36:36 <alise> http://search.cpan.org/~jwalt/Acme-Lingua-NIGERIAN-1.0.0/NIGERIAN.pm
23:36:39 <Sgeo> "PERL Programming" is the title
23:36:59 <alise> Sgeo: Then it is worse than useless.
23:37:07 <alise> Clearly they haven't the first idea about the language if they know not even its name.
23:37:15 <alise> Probably based on Perl 4, and manually writing CGI scripts!
23:37:33 <alise> I'd suggest just, you know, giving up on whatever uni it is you go to.
23:37:39 <Sgeo> alise, that's the plan
23:37:47 <Sgeo> After this upcoming semester, I'm transferring
23:37:56 <Sgeo> Even though this means I'll graduate much later, probably
23:38:07 <Sgeo> Since after this semester, the next year is my senior year
23:40:24 <alise> You'll like it there. ... You are gay, right?
23:40:33 <augur> no, im not at stony brook
23:40:37 <augur> Gracenotes is at stony brook tho
23:40:41 <alise> Poor Sgeo, missing out on all that rape.
23:40:45 <alise> augur: where be thou?
23:40:54 <augur> University of Maryland
23:40:57 <augur> Sgeo, where are you presently?
23:41:12 <alise> some nothing state university
23:41:20 <alise> ~50,000,000 pupils
23:41:43 <augur> man, we couldve hung out
23:42:05 <augur> you me and gracenotes couldve all hung out
23:42:05 <alise> Sgeo: that wasn't what i heard last time
23:42:06 <alise> [[tlimp: to kiss someone allergic to peanuts. as in John was tlimping all last night = John was kissing someone who is allergic to peanuts all last night]]
23:42:19 <alise> did you try and pick an unpronounceable word there
23:42:22 <augur> aww, alise, you remember :3
23:42:33 <alise> no i just looked at your site lol
23:42:43 <augur> you remembered my site!
23:42:44 <alise> you should have the blog menu on the right it's disturbing on the left./
23:42:57 <alise> like I feel like i'm constantly looking to the right
23:42:59 <alise> it's so irritating
23:43:27 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_University_of_New_York_at_Farmingdale no wait that is the one i thought of
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23:43:45 <alise> augur: i won't read your blog anymore
23:43:48 <alise> SHUT UP N-- oh wait
23:43:58 <Sgeo> alise, yes, that one
23:44:35 <alise> what do you mean what
23:44:37 <alise> * FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!)
23:44:53 <alise> then you will know my pain
23:53:20 * oerjan uses finite integrals to quickly calculate f(0,x) = 1; f(n,x) = f(n-1,1) + ... + f(n-1,2*x)
23:53:47 <alise> oerjan: See, some of my genius has rubbed off on you.
23:53:53 <oerjan> that was a _huge_ improvement on the actual recursion, even with memoization (i.e. haskell lists)
23:53:55 <alise> Finite integrals are also known as "sums" :P
23:54:15 <oerjan> yeah but it's the theory that is important here
23:54:19 <alise> also why are you calculating that?
23:54:46 <alise> I love how the finite derivative of 2^x is 2^x because 2 is e rounded down
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23:55:12 <alise> oerjan: that's actually how it was found in the paper
23:55:15 <alise> they tried 2 and 3
23:55:21 <alise> because they were roundings of e
23:55:57 * oerjan is doubtful, for some _unfathomable_ reason
23:56:25 <alise> oerjan: doubtful of what?!
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23:56:56 <alise> i guess it's more accurate to say that e is what you get when, instead of discrete distances where 2 works, you need to handle all the turtles, all the way down
23:57:02 <oerjan> that there was a paper where someone used rounding of e to find that derivative
23:57:47 <alise> it's the paper introducing finite calculus.
23:57:56 <alise> http://www.stanford.edu/~dgleich/publications/finite-calculus.pdf
23:58:52 <oerjan> it sounded like a very silly way to guess the obvious
23:59:33 <alise> I think it's more an explanation.
00:00:26 <oerjan> i suppose different bases work for different increments
00:01:14 <uorygl> I suddenly have an odd feeling that I'm about to say something and alise is going to contradict me.
00:01:22 <alise> uorygl: No you aren't.
00:01:39 <uorygl> Anyway, if a hypothesis is falsifiable, then as the time it's gone without being falsified approaches infinity, its probability approaches 1.
00:02:50 <alise> uorygl: True if and only if someone's /trying/ to falsify it.
00:02:54 <oerjan> well assuming the conditional probability of falsification has a nonzero lower bound per time unit...
00:03:05 <oerjan> (conditional on it being false)
00:03:09 <alise> If I said "pink elephants exist in a planet where everybody has penises of length -3.4i halfinches, and every fortnight they all explode and come back together again",
00:03:11 <alise> and nobody challenged it,
00:03:17 <alise> I don't think we could assume it gets more probable!
00:03:39 <uorygl> That's not falsifiable, though.
00:04:39 <alise> It is; "the planet is [some space we will be able to visit in the future]; we will be able to visit it in N years"
00:04:49 <uorygl> I could say, "The universe contains no planets that do not have sapient life but do have blue, hairy creatures that secrete food for their young."
00:05:02 <alise> even once we're able to visit it
00:05:04 <alise> we could falsify it
00:05:10 <alise> but let's assume it's in a really boring region of space and nobody does
00:05:13 <alise> it doesn't get more likely
00:05:18 <uorygl> alise: I could just always say that we haven't seen that planet because it's outside the observable universe.
00:05:28 <uorygl> Thus, there's no falsifying it.
00:05:28 <alise> Let's say it isn't.
00:05:47 <uorygl> The pink elephants are too small to be seen with our technology.
00:06:00 <uorygl> And the two people on it live underground.
00:06:37 <alise> No, I'm making it falsifiable.
00:06:46 <alise> "We will be able to visit it in N years; it is N miles away"
00:06:56 <alise> Perfectly falsifiable: but let's say it's a really boring region of space, and nobody bothers.
00:07:04 <alise> Countless aeons pass. Still no more likely.
00:07:06 <uorygl> I didn't see that that statement was a refinement of the hypothesis.
00:07:26 <alise> If people were /actively trying/ to disprove it, and they didn't, then it'd become more likely.
00:07:37 <alise> (But it'd take a bloody long infinity for it to become 1.)
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00:09:52 <bsmntbombdood> alise: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54709
00:10:11 <alise> there are many like that
00:10:20 <alise> including some with a really heavy zalman metal case, you know that thing
00:10:29 <alise> question is how much powah can you get.
00:11:59 <alise> a totally silent computer is interesting in the psychological effect --
00:12:06 <alise> the computer would become completely ambient, it would make no disruption
00:16:07 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silverstone_ST45NF_PSU
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00:19:55 <alise> do you mean your as in the one i linked?
00:20:03 <alise> because i linked it
00:20:43 <alise> yeah not a spcr review though http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=silverstone_nightjar_450&num=1
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00:20:47 <alise> what google gave me
00:20:51 <alise> 450w is pretty fucking good
00:20:57 <alise> you could run an i7 and an okay graphics card off that.
00:21:06 <alise> would want megahalems for the i7 mos def
00:21:27 <alise> and probably one of the videocards that can be ran fanless /without/ a crazy cooler that overheats
00:22:08 <alise> bsmntbombdood: I dunno man
00:22:19 <alise> open the back of the case entirely (with maybe some dust filter stuff)
00:22:25 <alise> let natural airflow take care of it
00:22:30 <alise> maybe i7 is a bit excessive
00:22:33 <alise> bet i5 could take it though
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00:23:51 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder how much passive airflow you'll get from the cpu sink
00:24:36 * uorygl listens to his MacBook.
00:24:48 <uorygl> Yep, it's making sound.
00:25:21 <uorygl> But it's drowned out by the sounds of birds and rustling leaves outside, my dad cooking, my little brother banging stuff, and other appliances.
00:25:45 <alise> No birds and leaves at 12:25 am; nor much cooking going on. Only child, and no appliances are on.
00:25:55 <alise> And this is the ooold computer I'm on. Whirrrrrrr.
00:31:30 <alise> bsmntbombdood: remember those crazy watercooling solutions we talked about?
00:31:51 <alise> putting everything in one big loop, then getting a large house radiator
00:32:02 <alise> that can handle like 2,600 w
00:32:05 <alise> and just pluggin 'er in
00:33:00 <alise> "The funny thing is, I never noticed my LCD whine until after reading this post. It has a very quiet, very high frequency line."
00:33:25 <alise> i'm going to have to commit suicide.
00:33:55 * uorygl attempts to listen to an LCD whine.
00:34:37 <uorygl> I think my tinnitus is louder than that.
00:35:40 <bsmntbombdood> i hate all the armchair engineering that goes into reviewing heatsinks
00:36:13 <alise> I used to think I had tinnitus but I think everyone hears whining when things are silent.
00:36:20 <bsmntbombdood> something that has 8 heatpipes MUST be better than something 6
00:36:20 <uorygl> That's called tinnitus.
00:36:26 <alise> bsmntbombdood: in all fairness mike chin knows what he's doing
00:36:33 <alise> maybe you meant someone else
00:36:39 <alise> uorygl: no because tinnitus is a condition and it's constant
00:36:49 <bsmntbombdood> this heatsink doesn't have a mirror finish, it must suck
00:37:25 <alise> bsmntbombdood: now that's ridiculous, spcr certainly doesn't say such bullshit
00:37:50 <alise> yeah hardware review sites almost always suck
00:37:54 <alise> ... i like ananadtech though
00:41:32 <uorygl> Now I want to take a hearing test.
00:45:58 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.jab-tech.com/YATE-LOON-120mm-Case-Fan-D12SL-12-pr-3009.html
00:50:32 <bsmntbombdood> and, http://www.jab-tech.com/Scythe-KAMA-FLEX-80-mm-Silent-Case-Fan-Medium-Speed-SA0825FDB12M-pr-4111.html
00:57:22 <alise> bsmntbombdood: the nexus fans are meant to be good.
00:57:36 <alise> yate loon is apparently the same manufacturer as the nexus fans, but less reliable quality
00:57:37 <alise> (and thus cheaper)
00:57:42 <alise> they're kinda oldschool i gather
00:57:49 <alise> scythe are excellent.
00:57:55 <alise> different manufacturer, yes
00:57:58 <alise> but nexus have better QC
01:02:10 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article114-page1.html
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01:15:47 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article601-page1.html
01:16:04 <alise> most everything on spcr is
01:16:12 <alise> the picopsu is awesome
01:16:18 <alise> but only usable for low power situations obviously
01:16:22 <alise> even the higher watt brick you attach it to has a fan
01:16:28 <alise> so you need to use the lower one
01:17:12 <alise> 240 watts, I can barely contain my excitement
01:17:20 <alise> "No, use 50!" Now your computer is overheating.
01:17:33 <alise> besides, they're $50 a pop.
01:17:51 <alise> "Although the power brick is sold separately, Mini-box supplied two power bricks to test alongside the picoPSU, one rated for 80W, the other for either 110W or 120W (depending on which numbers you believe)."
01:18:02 <alise> the latter has a cooling fan ("on heavy load" -- most of the time with one of these, surely)
01:18:09 <alise> so basically you get ... eighty watts!
01:18:53 <bsmntbombdood> would be perfect for an itty bitty system to build inside house walls or something
01:19:15 <alise> for like a kiosk thing? meh
01:19:21 <alise> would be v. nice for a media pc of some sort.
01:19:33 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't it be cool to have a computer you couldn't see?
01:19:37 <alise> i'm imagining a big tv plugged into a teeny weeny computer running mythtv and all that kinda stuff
01:19:43 <alise> bsmntbombdood: well yes, but imagine maintaining it
01:19:46 <alise> or would you put a door in the wall
01:20:06 <alise> or is it just audio
01:20:11 <alise> like making ghost noises from the wall
01:22:53 <alise> well, 2tb drives don't have too bad power requirements i think
01:22:58 <alise> a network storage device would work better :P
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01:29:29 <bsmntbombdood> you could also put the power brick far enough away not to hear it
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01:31:53 <alise> bsmntbombdood: that is just cheating though.
01:32:00 <alise> also, after /too/ far it'll run into problems
01:32:04 <alise> and after not far enough you will hear it easy.
01:32:09 <alise> silence vs a little noise = a lot
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01:34:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: You could just use the fanless power brick. :)
01:39:02 <pikhq> Requires some doing, but quite feasible.
01:39:29 <pikhq> Especially if you're going for no-moving-parts.
01:40:14 <alise> but the point is that you can get a 0-fan pc doing much more than 80w
01:40:30 <alise> there are fanless 450w supplies; use them at 100-200w and you'll only need minimal airflow
01:40:39 <alise> be very careful and use a bit less and you'll only need natural airflow
01:40:43 <alise> (you'd def. want heatpipes somewhere else)
01:40:56 <alise> really the best solution is: bunch of heatpipes + fucking gigantic radiator
01:41:10 <alise> but you would have to completely custom-do the heatpipes because i don't think you could mod the zalman easily to go to an external radiator.
01:41:12 <pikhq> The picoPSU is something you'd want for, say, something hooked into your TV running MythTV.
01:41:21 <alise> with that though you'd be able to handle a modern pc, save maybe graphics card
01:41:37 <alise> get two stonking great radiators and you'd be able to have a good processor and graphics card
01:41:45 <alise> of course: this will cost thousands to do the heatpipes & also get the house radiators.
01:41:50 <alise> and you will have to make it all yourself
01:42:00 <alise> but if you did it... that would be utter perfection.
01:42:03 <alise> Now where are you going to put the radiators?
01:42:29 <alise> My wall of my room in the previous Hexham house that my computer stood at had a down-staircase on the other side.
01:42:38 <alise> I was actually thinking about drilling through my wall, running watercooling cables through,
01:42:44 <alise> and mounting a gigantic household radiator on the wall of the stairs.
01:42:55 <alise> That way it would stay cool in my room and I'd still have some inkling of space...
01:43:03 <alise> Better hope that radiator's held up securely though /wince
01:52:36 <Sgeo> alise, why are you using WinCE?
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02:09:32 <alise> Death on a (pogo) stick.
02:14:44 <alise> http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20090930.png
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03:01:24 <bsmntbombdood> what's the point of a set-top box that can't handle 1080p?
03:03:18 <augur> http://gunshowcomic.com/d/20100422.html
03:03:21 <augur> you are the rabbit in the igloo
03:03:25 <pikhq> 1080p is pretty easy to do with a low-power-usage computer.
03:03:41 <alise> i am always the rabbit in the igloo
03:03:49 <pikhq> Low power usage for a computer still gets you "able to decode h.264 in real time with ease".
03:03:49 <alise> also that page isn't loading for me :/
03:04:21 <augur> http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20100422.gif
03:04:31 <pikhq> Yes. Modern CPUs are both crazy fast *and* don't use that much power.
03:05:05 <pikhq> My *last* CPU was able to decode 1080p h.264 in real time. And it would be a good 7 years old now. (and it was single core.)
03:05:53 <alise> now have 1080p h.264 and aac audio packed in matroshka or however you spell it
03:06:09 <pikhq> And yes. Done that.
03:06:13 <alise> i'm not sure your old pc could really handle realtime 1080p h.264... that stuff is pretty hardcore
03:06:17 <alise> you need about 3ghz single-core iirc
03:06:20 <alise> or about 2ghz dual-core
03:06:26 <pikhq> It used about all of my CPU.
03:06:30 <alise> i guess it could be a good cpu from 7 years old
03:07:23 <pikhq> Erm. 7? More like 5. XD
03:07:27 <alise> shit shittingham by Shitco
03:08:13 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Some Athlon 64...
03:08:49 <pikhq> This was just a *bit* before Intel trashed Pentium 4 for good, IIRC.
03:09:16 <pikhq> Wait, they shipped P4s up until 2008?
03:09:21 <pikhq> What the fuck Intel?
03:09:21 <alise> dual-core came to fashion with the core 2 duo i think
03:09:32 <alise> pikhq: they're just sooo good
03:09:40 <pikhq> Yeah, I hadn't purchased an x2.
03:09:56 <alise> there's an athlon 64 x2 in this machine right now
03:12:41 <pikhq> My current system can encode h.264 (... 480p) in faster-than-realtime.
03:13:00 <pikhq> (never bothered to check how much faster; I generally start the makefile before I go to sleep.)
03:13:04 <alise> 1080p h.264 is just glorious
03:13:24 <alise> the problem is that the real world doesn't have enough details to take full advantage.
03:13:32 <alise> we should just meticulously draw everything
03:13:37 <pikhq> Pity my monitor is too cheap to display it.
03:14:05 <alise> bsmntbombdood: 2TB is all the rage. get two, RAID 0 them
03:14:06 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: MOAR TERABYTES
03:14:08 <alise> (just keep backups you bum)
03:14:14 <alise> 4TB of sex for about $400.
03:14:18 <bsmntbombdood> also, http://www.mini-box.com/PW-200M-DC-DC-power-supply?sc=8&category=13
03:14:25 <pikhq> Get four, RAID5 them.
03:14:26 <alise> so what, you are keeping backups right?
03:14:49 <alise> yeah with a fan component
03:15:36 <alise> Clearly the next step in solid-state computing is eInk, to get rid of that pesky whine and distracting backlight.
03:16:08 <alise> surely in the power brick.
03:17:08 <alise> and also v. low power
03:17:08 <alise> we're talking 40-60w here
03:17:13 <alise> even the picopsu one can handle 80w 100% fanless
03:18:28 <alise> we should just get a bunch of flux capacitors
03:18:31 <alise> can power anything
03:18:39 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.mini-box.com/picoUPS-100-12V-DC-micro-UPS-system-battery-backup-system?sc=8&category=1264
03:20:33 <alise> just use the 400-500whatever one
03:21:03 <alise> just open all the holes in the case you can, and make sure the cpu heatsink is comfortably away from it
03:21:18 <alise> then use a low-power graphics card so you don't need a hefty heatsink because it has little heat output
03:22:49 <alise> make the smallest modern x86 computer you can
03:22:57 <alise> problem is... all mobos are pretty big
03:23:03 <alise> I think mini-ITX is the smallest?
03:23:43 <alise> so get a low-power cpu with a very small heatsink so that it doesn't take up much height, stick a picopsu on it, a tiny (say the 18 series of intel SSDs) drive, leave the rest to the mobo
03:23:49 <alise> custom-make a tiny plastic case for it
03:23:55 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile-ITX
03:24:54 <alise> smartphones aren't regular x86 puters
03:25:19 <alise> oh you mean mobile-itx?
03:25:21 <alise> the page hasn't loaded yet
03:25:51 <pikhq> Mobile-ITX is 60mm by 60mm. Though it gets a little bit larger due to the needed IO breakout board.
03:27:37 <pikhq> There's also PC/104. 96mm by 90mm, peripherals attached via sticking the board on top.
03:30:23 <alise> djb has published a new standard-workstation list of parts & software & stuff since 2005 every one or two years... and since 2006 all of them have been minor revisions with "I haven't assembled it yet, see the 2006 instructions"
03:30:26 <alise> why bother, man, why bother
03:30:28 <alise> you haven't even tried it :P
03:31:20 <alise> also dammit i really wish core i7 supported ecc /sigh
03:32:45 <alise> I'd go AMD, but AMD processors suck.
03:33:47 <alise> bsmntbombdood: "no"
03:33:59 <alise> have to get special mobo, costs a lot more, iffiness about heatsinks, different socket etc.
03:34:19 <pikhq> Xeons are at a "bend over and take it" price point.
03:40:19 <Gregor> 's a good price point :P
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03:49:23 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117191&cm_re=xeon-_-19-117-191-_-Product
04:11:48 <alise> now add all the other ghosts, and see my other complaints
04:24:16 <alise> bsmntbombdood: dammit, I want tea
04:24:19 <alise> you're such an english fucker
04:25:50 <pikhq> Fuck it. I'm getting some tea too.
04:26:41 <pikhq> Mmm, delicously delicious Earl Grey.
04:29:53 <pikhq> You mean there's a British person without tea?
04:30:03 <alise> To obtain tea I would have to:
04:30:15 <alise> - go downstairs; a laborous task
04:30:24 <alise> - walk back upstairs
04:30:34 <pikhq> I could've sworn the need for tea was so ingrained into the British genome that it was still quite noticable several generations removed from Britain.
04:30:35 <alise> Not only am I tired and I should really sleep as it's 4:30 am, but...
04:30:50 <alise> I don't even know if there's any decent tea here.
04:30:59 <pikhq> I mean, I still have quite a need for tea.
04:31:08 <alise> You're just crazy.
04:31:33 <alise> pikhq: You wouldn't even believe it, there are people here who put COW'S MILK in tea! Only Douglas Adams is allowed to do that!
04:31:53 <pikhq> ... You mean there's people who don't do that?
04:32:20 * pikhq dances before the moon
04:34:22 <pikhq> The traditional hanzi for that is... ?
04:35:24 <pikhq> "拉普山小種". Okay, that's straightforward enough.
04:35:37 <alise> anyway seriously FUCK. YOU. GUYS
04:35:54 <alise> I expect you to lodge me & provide tea at my convenience as payment for this travesty
04:36:06 <pikhq> "Small variety from the mountain Lap", apparently.
04:36:29 <pikhq> alise: Learn Japanese and maybe I will. :P
04:36:48 <pikhq> (no reason for that except to make you squirm.)
04:36:55 <alise> Can I pay you [learn Japanese] after you provide me with the service?
04:36:58 <pikhq> (though you *do* have the time. :P)
04:37:00 <alise> I'll sign a contract!
04:37:07 <alise> No I don't... not right now at least.
04:37:11 <alise> (I'm too braindead on weekdays to.)
04:37:34 <pikhq> I strongly suspect a major portion of that is boredom.
04:37:45 <pikhq> Belive you me, boredom makes your brain fucking *dead*.
04:38:00 <alise> and being woken up at 7am every day.
04:38:26 <alise> bsmntbombdood: how old are you
04:38:29 <pikhq> Yeah, that's just cruelty to anyone younger than, say, 25.
04:38:44 <alise> bsmntbombdood: presumably in binary
04:39:32 <alise> so, today I learned that in third grade, Eliezer Yudkowsky bit his math teacher because she didn't know what a logarithm was
04:39:43 <alise> which is just brilliant
04:39:59 <pikhq> Also, how can you not know what a logarithm is?
04:40:06 <pikhq> I mean *god* that's basic.
04:40:16 <alise> Well, I didn't when I was that age, but that's only because the state education system was tainting my mind.
04:40:32 <bsmntbombdood> one of my coworkers was trying to get me to explain logarithms to her the other day
04:40:33 <alise> I was dumb right up until approximately the time I dropped out.
04:40:54 <alise> well your mind shouldn't be going at 20 unless you were exceptionally smart before
04:41:00 <alise> so i conclude you're just thinking you're getting dumber!
04:42:04 <alise> pikhq: To make it even more awesome, I learned this as part of the only Harry Potter fanfiction to invoke quantum physics and Bayesian probability... why Yudkowsky wrote it I've no idea: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
04:42:14 <alise> ("You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat!")
04:42:26 <alise> It is quite thoroughly awesome though.
04:42:48 <pikhq> He *actually wrote* a HP fanfiction?
04:43:19 <alise> It's 17 chapters long so far!
04:43:27 <alise> It's amazing, in a kind of this-is-an-utterly-pointless-exercise way.
04:43:40 <alise> bsmntbombdood: make it solid state
04:43:48 <alise> i encourage you to read it
04:44:18 <alise> bsmntbombdood: it'd be awesome
04:44:32 <alise> you could use it as your main machine and keep the powerhouse in some network'd cupboard
04:44:40 <alise> and then make a command "faster" which sends commands to it
04:44:51 <alise> $ faster gcc ... huge.c
04:45:31 <alise> what is that thing
04:46:03 <alise> i assume we're talking cc stuff
04:46:07 <alise> rather than auto shellout stuff
04:46:08 <pikhq> Single-image multiprocessing?
04:46:12 <alise> i dunno what ccache's actually called
04:46:43 <bsmntbombdood> general purpose, it would migrate processes back and forth as need
04:47:05 <pikhq> Single-system image clustering.
04:47:36 <pikhq> There's many implementations of it.
04:48:58 <pikhq> MOSIX is still developed, though OpenMOSIX isn't.
04:54:11 <Gregor> I thought MOSIX wasn't even developed when it was developed.
04:57:41 <alise> I got 99 problems but POSIX ain't one
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05:34:28 <alise> Ah, I can't wait until I can be awake at this bedtime without a nagging feeling of doubt.
05:38:28 <alise> Sgeo: You are now wearing two pairs of glasses?? EXTRAORDINARY!
05:38:53 <alise> bsmntbombdood: Terahalems
05:38:59 <alise> Like Megahalems, but moreso.
05:39:00 <Sgeo> alise, ++ only increments by one. Go back to C-like languages 101?
05:39:06 <alise> They take up 3 average office blocks.
05:39:50 <alise> Sgeo: Well, if you're the kind of person who needs glasses, you probably put them on every day, and you certainly don't mention it every day. So this has to be some special occurrence, not regular glasses-putting-on. If you need glasses you probably already have them on. So you'd be wearing two pairs. If you didn't need glasses, it's unlikely you'd have a reason to put them on just now.
05:39:57 <alise> So the most likely explanation is that you are now wearing two pairs of glasses.
05:40:55 <Sgeo> Or, I'm the kind of person who can see perfectly well without glasses, but who has better depth perception with glasses
05:41:16 <alise> Then it is strange to mention such a common event as putting on your glasses in here.
05:41:29 <alise> Although you do do that quite a lot; I should have adjusted my estimate accordingly.
05:41:34 <Sgeo> I recently [minutes ago] got a hold of these glasses
05:41:46 <Sgeo> Haven't worn glasses since 2007 I think
05:41:58 <Sgeo> So no, it is not a common occurance
05:42:53 <alise> Then you've been living with bad depth perception for that time? Knowingly?
05:43:00 <alise> Or is this a recently-discovered thing?
05:43:35 <alise> Well that's silly.
05:46:53 <alise> Shit, it is almost 6 am!
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05:55:43 <pikhq> 6 am? Hold out for 5 am, alise!
05:56:29 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:56:30 <pikhq> Just another 23 hours.
05:56:43 <pikhq> You could even get some tea to help you.
05:56:49 <alise_> pikhq: You realise that a few hours after /that/, I will have to go back to the Place?
05:57:00 <alise_> And that I can barely function with one day's sleep deprivation?
05:57:18 <alise_> Although one day looks likely now, much as I hate to admit it (as I seem to think that not admitting it will prevent it)...
05:57:29 <alise_> Happened last week too; why Friday night but not Saturday I wonder?
05:57:36 <alise_> (Do I sleep, that is.)
05:57:43 <alise_> Tea would be nice though. But what if things get boring?
05:57:44 <pikhq> Do you realise that I find it hard to be serious?
05:58:21 <alise_> I know, I know. But your advice is telling me to do things that I want to do, against my better judgement.
05:58:32 <alise_> So I'm trying to make you refine it into something close but slightly more reasonable and serious.
05:58:46 <alise_> Which you should probably not do, even though it won't change anything.
05:58:57 <alise_> Jesus christ, I wish I could just replace myself with a very small, rational, program.
05:59:46 <pikhq> I strongly suggest you spend the next week asleep and wake up refreshed and free on Friday night.
06:01:27 <alise_> Another facet of my irrationality is that I find it very hard to disobey when the idiotic knocks on the door - like I'm some sort of young child who isn't /intentionally/ not getting out of bed - progress from "<time>; time to get up" from "Are you not up yet?! It's <time> to eight! Gasp!".
06:01:54 <alise_> Plus they'd probably just get oh-so-worried and assign someone to keep watch on me 24/7 like they do with some of the others (and I mean that 24 literally).
06:03:16 <alise_> Yawn. My life there has progressed from intolerable in so many subtle ways, to merely so boring it's hard to think of anything moreso.
06:05:22 <alise_> pikhq: Cookies! Have you ever thought about cookies?
06:05:31 <alise_> Oh, I even forgot. I go mad when I don't sleep.
06:06:16 <pikhq> alise_: How long until you start hallucinating?
06:06:42 <Sgeo> We need an op in here, stat!
06:06:57 <alise_> The most I have managed is on the order of 40 hours. I didn't hallucinate, but in the day or so before I was talking about metacampfires, which did verily descend into recursion infinitely, and also how stupid me sneezing on to my hand was.
06:07:05 <alise_> In the same paragraph.
06:07:21 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
06:07:45 <alise_> It's funny because there's a kind of inner calm sane person in my head, with the sort of skewy effects of tiredness on top, and it's kind of mocking me while I type out really ridiculous stuff drowsily.
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06:09:02 <alise_> pikhq: what time is it in the American States, United?
06:12:07 <pikhq> alise_: 17:08 UTC+12, 15:08 Chamorro, 02:08 Atlantic, 01:08 Eastern, 00:08 Central, 11:08 Mountain, 10:08 Pacific, 09:08 Alaska, 08:08 Hawaii-Aleutian, 07:08 Samoan, 06:08 UTC-12.
06:12:19 <alise_> pikhq: heh -- and I just started to type "IT'S ANSWER TIME", too.
06:12:20 <pikhq> That covers all time zones in US territory.
06:12:39 <alise_> well I can safely discard Alaska, and I'm sure the UTC12s...
06:12:39 <pikhq> (UTC+12 and UTC-12 because the islands in them do not have defined time zones, and thus use nautical time)
06:12:46 <alise_> Chamorro too, and Hawaii.
06:13:06 <alise_> So we have 2:08 Atlantic, 1:08 Eastern, 0:08 Central, 11:08 Mountain, 10:08 Pacific.
06:13:18 <alise_> Is that 10/11 p.m. or a.m.?
06:13:26 <alise_> I'd assume the former, but your two-digit hours confuse me.
06:13:31 <pikhq> Which is Puerto Rico.
06:13:35 <pikhq> Those are 24-hour.
06:13:48 <alise_> I did not know there was such disrepancy.
06:13:56 <Rugxulo> it's a little after midnight here
06:14:07 <alise_> In fact I'm instinctively denying it.
06:14:14 <pikhq> alise_: Dude, the US is about the size of *Europe*.
06:14:23 <alise_> I know, but it clashes with my expectations so much.
06:14:34 <alise_> You guys have to... plan... think... about talking to someone in the SAME COUNTRY AS YOU because of time.
06:14:36 <alise_> Uh, let me rephrase. What time is it where you are, right now?
06:15:00 <pikhq> What's crazy is how our time zones are defined.
06:15:04 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-Timezones.svg
06:15:04 <alise_> So you won't be here to support my folly soon enough; woe.
06:15:08 <pikhq> What about this makes sense?
06:15:13 <alise_> Or, at least, unless you pull an all-nighter too, which I doubt.
06:15:27 <pikhq> Probably go to bed in a couple of hours.
06:15:28 <alise_> Aah, certain people are going to be pissed at me when they wake up.
06:15:33 <alise_> Why do I do this to myself?
06:16:52 <alise_> See, now I hate you for implanting the stay-awake seed in my mind.
06:17:00 <Rugxulo> latest lame Befunge creation: http://www.pastebin.org/197670
06:17:13 <alise_> Doesn't seem reversible, either: 6:16 am; give the time it takes me to finally convince myself; then the time to do it; and it's morning already.
06:17:24 <alise_> I will take my anger out on Rugxulo. Fuck you! Grr. >_>
06:17:59 <pikhq> Anyways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Timezones2008.png See that size?
06:18:01 <Rugxulo> I guess it's too late (early?) for fizzie and AnMaster, I have a dumb question for one or both of them
06:18:08 <pikhq> Multiple time zones make sense for the US.
06:18:15 <alise_> Don't talk about time, Rugxulo.
06:18:18 <Rugxulo> except Arizona in their infinite wisdom
06:18:18 <alise_> Dooo not talk about time.
06:18:31 <alise_> pikhq: why are they segregated into nice little boundaries.
06:18:31 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Arizona is just silly.
06:18:54 <pikhq> alise_: What, the time zones?
06:19:10 <pikhq> Those are generally county lines in the US.
06:19:30 <alise_> What is that area, that does not observe DST?
06:20:04 <pikhq> The parts of Arizona that are not an Indian reservation, specifically.
06:21:03 <pikhq> (an Indian nation, being simultaneously a sovereign nation and part of the US, sets its own time zone. (and no, that does not make any sense to me either))
06:21:06 <alise_> shitbags on a pogo stick
06:21:16 <pikhq> There's also Hawaii that doesn't do DST.
06:21:27 <alise_> can i sleep now, wanna sleep
06:21:30 <alise_> feel stupid when no sleepy
06:22:07 <alise_> So I waste one day of my weekend. How stupid am I?!
06:22:39 <Rugxulo> pikhq, dumb question but does every state have an Indian reservation?
06:22:57 <alise_> I'm an Indian reservation
06:23:02 <alise_> too tired to pee though
06:23:18 <Rugxulo> huh, GCC 4.4.4 released two days ago
06:23:27 <Rugxulo> funny how they do that even when 4.5.0 is out
06:24:41 <pikhq> What's really bizarre is that we spend *most* of the year in DST...
06:24:45 <alise_> I want to - this is all you fauuuuult
06:27:42 * Sgeo is considering getting an iPad for his step-mother's mother
06:28:03 <alise_> Getting someone an iPad: Always a bad idea.
06:28:34 <Sgeo> She wants me to teach her how to use the computer. So why not get her something that's very simple to use?
06:28:55 <Sgeo> And that will be hers
06:28:58 <alise_> Because the iPad doesn't teach you how to use a computer... but it probably would teach her how to do what she wants, yes...
06:29:06 <alise_> That's actually such a disturbing idea I'm afraid of it.
06:29:16 <alise_> Apple have found an amazing market and filled it with PURE EVIL.
06:29:25 <alise_> And the PURE EVIL is /great technology/...
06:32:05 <Rugxulo> you could drop the iPad easier
06:32:10 <alise_> Windows? Almost impossible to use.
06:32:16 <alise_> Linux? Not really suitable for this, in any of its incarnations.
06:32:22 <alise_> OS X? Doesn't come in netbook form; not suitable.
06:32:26 <Rugxulo> how so? I'm not in love with Windows by any means, but it's not impossible ... surely easier to maintain
06:32:38 <alise_> Maintain? We're talking someone who /does not know how to use a computer/.
06:32:40 <Rugxulo> there are some good netbook Linuxes, from what I've read
06:32:46 <alise_> Windows is only easy because we've used it for so long.
06:32:53 <Rugxulo> I mean "maintain" as in "it's more popular, so more people can help teach her"
06:32:59 <alise_> This woman almost certainly wants to -- use email. The web. And that is about it.
06:33:09 <alise_> So? It's hard to mess up a few taps -- and I dislike the iPad, note.
06:33:14 <Rugxulo> heck, make it dual boot if you're that worried
06:33:19 <alise_> I don't think you quite grasp the concept of usability.
06:33:25 <alise_> That would make the problem... indescribably worse.
06:33:31 <alise_> I guess that's what you get from someone who likes DOS...
06:33:44 <Rugxulo> DOSEMU or DOSBox ftw!! ;-)
06:33:50 <Rugxulo> at least I ain't suggesting BefOS :-P
06:34:20 <alise_> Sgeo: Get her an iPad if and only if you are sure she will never use a computer in a greater capacity than what I have enumerated; and repent afterwards.
06:34:36 <Rugxulo> don't get one of those, they're too new, it's not something to learn on
06:34:42 <alise_> Also, call it a computer, not a souped-up phone, or she'll probably get angry.
06:34:50 <Rugxulo> at least a netbook is portable and can close its lid (thereby somewhat protecting the screen)
06:34:52 <alise_> Rugxulo: Well, the iPhone OS is not that new really.
06:35:00 <alise_> erm, the iPad is portable...
06:35:03 <alise_> And you don't "learn" the web and email.
06:35:08 <alise_> There is barely any "knowledge" in it.
06:35:44 <Sgeo> She has trouble working her (non-smart)phone..
06:35:46 <Rugxulo> believe it or not, complete newbies don't know when to double-click, how to properly turn off the computer (or shutdown the OS), what programs to open for what, etc.
06:36:08 <alise_> With the iPad, you press your finger on the thing saying Safari to go on "The Internet".
06:36:26 <alise_> Then you press whatever you want to go to on the screen, or hunt-and-peck on the keyboard to use "the Google".
06:36:45 <Sgeo> I will not allow her to use wrong terminology
06:36:52 <alise_> If you want to talk to people on e-male, you press the little picture with "Mail" underneath it. Then you touch the messages you want, and press the little thing saying "Reply" to say something more.
06:37:00 <alise_> Sgeo: Hopeless. Just accept it.
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06:37:40 <alise_> Wow; I'm no longer so tired. The weird feeling of my skeletal structure is gone.
06:37:50 <alise_> Only the slight haze -- the inner yawn -- is there, of course it's the worst thing, but...
06:38:20 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to put you to sleep permanently again.
06:40:30 <alise_> that's my retaliation to anything like that in future
06:40:33 <alise_> just make people feel awkward
06:40:43 <alise_> hey, i'm legal in less than two years!
06:43:20 <alise_> not that i'll be in this country by then
06:44:54 <Rugxulo> that makes me think you're ultra young
06:44:54 <alise_> I will no longer be an illegal immigrant because I will become a flower.
06:45:11 <Rugxulo> seriously? okay, not a huge shock, lots in here (esp. ehird) are young too
06:45:22 <alise_> I /am/ ehird, you fool!
06:45:29 <alise_> --this nick is what we refer to as "a long story".
06:45:43 <Rugxulo> I thought he was 15 (can't remember, oh well)
06:45:58 <alise_> No; 12 and 13 are the ages I've been here.
06:46:06 <pikhq> His 14th birthday was fairly recent.
06:46:10 <Rugxulo> hmmm, you strong math interest seems odd for your age ;-)
06:46:34 <Rugxulo> whatever happened to that static Linux distro you were working on? gave up?
06:46:35 <alise_> I was raped by mathematics as a young child. :|
06:46:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: For most everyone who's in #esoteric, though?
06:46:48 <alise_> Rugxulo: I decided it wasn't worth the effort since Linux is pretty inherently shitty
06:46:57 <pikhq> I think I started coming to this channel when I was 15...
06:46:58 <alise_> and I could spend my time being slightly more annoyed at existing distros while doing more productive things
06:47:25 <alise_> bsmntbombdood: FUCK YOU
06:47:37 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I would've built it for curiosity's sake, but it's a major pain getting things working with just static linking.
06:47:41 <Rugxulo> alise, it's a huge undertaking to make your own distro
06:47:45 <pikhq> Especially trying to bootstrap.
06:47:54 <pikhq> It's *tedious*, but not that hard.
06:48:05 <Rugxulo> very tedious and time consuming, lots of little bugs to workaround
06:48:28 <Rugxulo> only good if you intend to use it full time, otherwise not worth the effort
06:48:28 <alise_> LFS has almost mechanised the process.
06:48:36 <alise_> But if you want something usable for /other people/, of course...
06:48:44 <alise_> I've never really cared much about other people. As in, in an immediate sense.
06:48:58 * pikhq is intimately familiar with *most* of the problems involved.
06:49:09 <pikhq> I have spent too much time on build automation. :P
06:49:12 <Rugxulo> there are definitely too many Linux distros, there just don't need to be 100+ Ubuntu derivatives, sheesh!!!
06:49:28 <Sgeo> What about Ubuntu integrals?
06:49:36 <alise_> Did you know you can download and install Hannah Montana Linux?
06:49:42 <alise_> It's a variant of Kubuntu!
06:49:50 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Seriously.
06:50:17 <alise_> Ubuntu antidifferentiation is the result of restoring a modified Ubuntu to its stock state.
06:50:18 <pikhq> The only one I even could like on a technical level was, amusingly, Gnewsense.
06:50:24 <alise_> so what's an integral?
06:50:52 <pikhq> Because they automated their freeing-up-thing.
06:50:57 <alise_> Q : How/why did you make such a great OS?
06:50:57 <alise_> A : I thought - what would attract young users to Linux? So I created this idea after a lot of reading and work.
06:51:16 <pikhq> Which is at least more work than just about every other Ubuntu derivative.
06:51:37 <pikhq> (it also at least has *some* purpose, though that purpose is ideological)
06:51:52 <alise_> Oh, and the huge yawns start.
06:51:58 <alise_> I need to start taking melatonin.
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06:52:09 <alise_> It seems there is no other way I can maintain a sleep pattern, apart from authority.
06:52:22 <alise_> That's a good idea, actually. Why am I not already taking melatonin?
06:52:41 <pikhq> alise_: If it makes you feel better, "normal" sleep patterns are not feasible for teenagers outside of authority.
06:52:53 <alise_> But not sleeping at all is ludicrous.
06:53:12 <Sgeo> alise_, you're an Internet addict!
06:53:17 <pikhq> You're talking to a guy who has stayed up 30 hours for the purpose of watching a series in a single sitting.
06:53:17 <alise_> Anyway, anything is possible with melatonin :P
06:53:17 <coppro> I don't not sleep at all
06:53:19 <coppro> I don't sleep, then I get really tired and practically collapse
06:53:21 <coppro> this cycle repeats itself
06:53:28 <alise_> coppro: you don't not sleep at all!
06:53:42 <alise_> pikhq: did it gradually get more and more arsty
06:53:58 <alise_> I really need to pee now, it feels like I'm pregnant
06:54:00 <alise_> but I'm still too tired
06:54:17 <pikhq> It gradually got more and more ass-pully until it got to the end, which was the most perfect ending possible.
06:54:18 <alise_> alternative hypothesis; maybe I am pregnant and this uncomfortability is the baby
06:54:38 <alise_> See, now I just think you're talking about some weird abstract sex.
06:56:14 <Sgeo> "It occurs to me that this comic is starting to suck"
06:56:23 <Sgeo> Also, alise_, when you wake up, read Fine Structure?
06:56:40 <alise_> Wake up? Not before I sleep; and when I do I will then go to the unit.
06:56:54 <alise_> So I just won't bother doing these things until I'm out of there.
06:57:01 <coppro> pikhq: what is it that you're watching?
06:57:28 * Sgeo loves how "you're" works for both present and past tense.
06:57:36 <Sgeo> Or at least, it SHOULD
06:57:51 <pikhq> coppro: Had watched.
06:58:02 <alise_> I think pikhq is avoiding answering.
06:58:03 <Sgeo> Why shouldn't you were == you're?
06:58:10 <coppro> pikhq: Ok. What is it that you had watched?
06:58:11 <alise_> So obviously it was Ass-Pully 3: Extreme Ass Pulley Sluts
06:58:17 <alise_> A whole SERIES would you belive.
06:58:18 <Sgeo> If it's something like Elfen Lied, no one will judge
06:58:25 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it doesn't. Velkommen to the English Language.
06:58:27 <alise_> Hey! You can't tell me I won't judge...
06:58:39 <alise_> I'll judge him for anything!
06:58:46 <coppro> I won't judge, unless you call a CFJ
06:59:12 <Sgeo> If it's a porn series, I'll judge you for watching for the plot.
06:59:37 <alise_> What if it's a business management course
07:00:03 <pikhq> coppro: Code Geass.
07:00:11 <coppro> heard of it. That's about all.
07:00:21 <coppro> in other news, Stargate Universe is awesome.
07:00:23 <pikhq> Season 2 had half of its plot be ass-pulls.
07:00:47 <Sgeo> Finished watching SG-1 the other day
07:00:53 <coppro> They pulled the same plot twist for the second episode in a row this week. It was beautiful.
07:01:09 <alise_> coppro: isn't that ... bad writing
07:01:25 <Sgeo> I have a friend who likes SGU
07:02:18 <coppro> alise_: No, given the nature of the twist
07:02:55 <Sgeo> Is there a twist involved in the same twist happening twice?
07:03:17 <coppro> well... it's not really so much a twist as messing with your expectations of the plot. But it's sufficiently significant for it to warrant the designation.
07:05:09 <coppro> (If you really care, I'll tell you what it is in PM)
07:05:28 <alise_> Sure, feel free. I won't watch it.
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08:05:42 <alise_> now my pee-need-o-meter is at defcon 24; my sleep-need-o-meter is at 3+4i
08:06:19 <alise_> You hit the sleep button.
08:06:20 <coppro> instead of going to bed
08:06:42 <coppro> alise_: because I'm tired
08:06:45 <coppro> I put my computer to sleep
08:07:04 <coppro> also fuck I have so much work to do
08:08:20 <alise_> Sgeo: At 8 am? Ludicrous.
08:08:30 * Sgeo has done that before
08:08:57 <alise_> Yes, but it leads to you waking up at times inopportune for getting a good NIGHT'S sleep the following - well, not following now - day.
08:18:15 <coppro> why is the harp so awesome?
08:20:49 * Rugxulo thinks he just saved even *more* bytes by doing some weird trickery (inspired by loose understanding of Forth threading models)
08:21:03 <Rugxulo> was 1014 bytes, now 980, and it seems to (still) work!
08:21:22 <coppro> like, flute-level awesome
08:21:42 <coppro> actually, more awesome than the flute
08:22:42 <Rugxulo> and compression makes it worse, go figure
08:22:54 <Rugxulo> is a harp like crazy mad hard to change the strings??
08:23:18 <Rugxulo> sorry, I misunderstood, thought you were messing with a real harp
08:23:18 <coppro> could care less though
08:26:45 <coppro> but seriously, the harp is awesome
08:26:59 <alise_> i think my bladder is in serious danger
08:27:14 <alise_> danger is not a good thing
08:27:17 <alise_> nor are serious things
08:27:22 <alise_> therefore, serious danger must be doubly bad
08:27:50 <Rugxulo> gah, now the Befunge benchmark is slow again (back to self-modifying speeds)
08:28:42 * Rugxulo just assumes it's the P4's fault
08:32:01 <pikhq> The P4's performance gets screwed by minor things like "branch misses".
08:32:11 <pikhq> Erm. Branch prediction misses.
08:32:21 <alise_> why did they even make the P4?
08:32:24 <pikhq> Most other CPUs are hurt by it, but the P4 gets completely *screwed* by it.
08:32:45 <pikhq> alise_: Because clock rate = speed!
08:33:20 <pikhq> The Pentium 4 went up to a *31-stage* pipeline.
08:33:32 <Rugxulo> note to fizzie (if you're log reading), I can't get be.fs to work with GForth or pForth
08:34:01 <Rugxulo> they made the P4 to be able to scale to 10 Ghz
08:34:09 <Rugxulo> hence they simplified the logic somewhat (I think)
08:34:37 <Rugxulo> but they broke some common optimizations, introduced a trace cache, no barrel shifter (?), etc.
08:34:39 <pikhq> They made the pipeline so deep for the sole purpose of getting the clockrate to go up.
08:35:18 <Rugxulo> Prescott went to ~3.4 Ghz, but that was too hot, so they abandoned that and went back to Pentium-M for further work ("Core" 1, 2)
08:35:39 <pikhq> (deep pipeline means you can do fewer instructions per clock which means you can do a significantly higher clockrate)
08:36:31 <pikhq> This was all obviously a dead end. They had to go back to a Pentium III design just to get decent performance...
08:37:05 <pikhq> God. 31 stage pipeline...
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08:39:05 <oerjan> but it's such a lovely morning!
08:39:28 <oerjan> on actually looking, it seems a bit grey
08:40:19 <oerjan> presently no hailstones like yesterday though
08:45:23 <Rugxulo> I assume all the hullabaloo over Ejfasflaskdjfasd has blown over by now?
08:45:45 <Rugxulo> (U.S. is all concerned over big oil spill headed our way)
08:47:34 <oerjan> Rugxulo: what i've vaguely picked up is (1) the volcano has calmed down a bit (2) the wind doesn't blow directly to europe at the time, probably (3) they did actual tests and found out it's not as dangerous to planes as they feared
08:48:51 <oerjan> "headed" your way? i seemed to have read it had landed...
08:49:19 <Rugxulo> honestly, it's so boring a story, and the news never gets to the point, beats around the bush like crazy, so I'm too lazy to sit there for hours wondering wtf ...
08:49:58 <Rugxulo> at one time somebody said they were gonna light it all on fire to "help", but I guess they never did that
08:50:38 <oerjan> norway cares deeply about oil spills though. there is this island archipelago Lofoten, and the question of whether to drill close to it (there are _huge_ fisheries there, not to mention a prime tourist destination) is majorly divisive in our politics
08:51:01 <oerjan> so this US oil spill will probably shift our political balance a bit
08:51:38 <Rugxulo> they claim it's probably worse than the Exxon Valdez spill from way back
08:51:58 <Rugxulo> what really gets me is that people (restaurants) are already being told to form class action lawsuits, ugh
08:52:20 <oerjan> well _that_ is a US thing :D D:
08:54:02 <coppro> Rugxulo: report I just read earlier says it's not yet as bad as Exxon Valdez, but it will get there if it doesn't get controlled soon, and that doesn't seem likely
08:55:02 <Rugxulo> well pardon my ignorance, but lighting it on fire does NOT seem like the answer
08:55:07 <oerjan> (on the one hand they want to drill near Lofoten, on the other hand they want to get it onto the Unesco world heritage list)
08:55:12 <Rugxulo> maybe it is, who knows, but it just sounds dumb
08:55:37 <Rugxulo> need for oil is just too prevalent, cars are everywhere
08:56:17 <alise_> pikhq: hey yeah you said a couple of hours :)
08:56:20 <oerjan> alise_: shouldn't _you_ sleep? or maybe you already have
08:56:28 <alise_> oerjan: almost 9am; no point
08:56:39 <alise_> I really, really need to start taking melatonin
08:58:08 <alise_> seriously, ridiculous.
08:58:14 <oerjan> hm maybe i should try that some time
08:59:02 <alise_> yeah according to the infallible god of gwern speaking on less wrong, you take it and half an hour later you're asleep, no getting out of it
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08:59:14 <alise_> so it's basically a way of taking advantage of the fact that you can make a good decision about your bedtime /before/ the fact...
08:59:46 <alise_> certainly I don't see myself avoiding taking it; after all, I want to sleep at some point, I just hate the whole going-to-bed-and-not-sleeping thing.
09:00:36 <Sgeo> alise_, I googled melatonin, and the picture wasn't QUITE as rosy, don't remember why
09:00:41 <Sgeo> Also, I should sleep
09:00:57 <alise_> Is that "not QUITE as rosy" as in "bad bad bad", or "watch out slightly..."?
09:01:01 <alise_> I should just ask gwern.
09:01:11 <Sgeo> "watch out slightly"
09:01:14 <Sgeo> Don't remember why
09:01:28 <alise_> Anyway, unless it has permanent side effects, I don't really care; if they cause any temporary ones, I'd simply discontinue taking them.
09:02:21 <alise_> While the packaging of melatonin often warns against use in children, at least one long-term study[86] does assess effectiveness and safety in children. No serious safety concerns were noted in any of the 94 cases studied by means of a structured questionnaire for the parents. With a mean follow up time of 3.7 years, long-term medication was effective against sleep onset problems in 88% of the cases.
09:09:39 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I don't logread, but I usually notice mentions of my name; in any case, yes, I'm not terribly surprised that's the case. I'll see if I can make a better one one of these days.
09:09:58 <alise_> i want to drink pure liquid condensed sleep ... warm
09:11:14 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I'm not 100% sure what each threading model means in Forth, but I did something similar and shrank BEFI.COM to 982 bytes (but the benchmark is slow on P4 again, meh)
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09:11:52 <Rugxulo> not that you care, of course, but hey, *I* found it interesting ;-))
09:11:59 <fizzie> Hm, mayhaps I should look at size-optimizing an interpreter too. Too much to do, again.
09:12:12 <Rugxulo> step one: kick GCC to the door ;-)
09:12:41 <Rugxulo> (although I actually compiled fbbi in dietlibc on PuppyLinux yesterday, buggy / segfaulted)
09:12:57 <fizzie> I could hand-craft something for ARM, the Thumb instruction set there is supposedly quite economical.
09:13:05 <Rugxulo> actually, I think OpenWatcom has some pretty small code generation (static ELF for Linux, too)
09:13:25 <Rugxulo> 1.9rc5 was just released, probably final RC until 1.9 proper
09:13:46 <alise_> I wish there was something meant for humans in between ASM and C.
09:14:14 <Rugxulo> inline asm? shortcut mini-langs like Context or C-- ?
09:14:35 <alise_> inline asm still carries all the semantic & code-size baggage of C, and the language inside it is not really a midpoint;
09:14:36 <Rugxulo> C isn't so bad, it's the damn C libraries that are so hugely bloated
09:14:41 <alise_> C-- is not human-usable in the slightest;
09:14:57 <Rugxulo> C-- is usable, sure, no worse than asm (or HLL asm)
09:15:08 <alise_> But it's obviously designed for machines.
09:15:12 <alise_> It has annoying inconveniences for human use.
09:15:13 <fizzie> Speaking of Unicode (which was spoken of at some point yesterday); recently I've been dabbling on a .NET implementation of Glass (Glass#?) -- to make .NET programming a bit more bearable, y'know -- and to avoid conflicts between housekeeping stuff and user-defined-in-Glass stuff, I prefixed all the Glass-defined names with the glottal stop character ʔ; it was the first Unicode character I came across that had a name starting with "gl".
09:15:23 <alise_> I'd totally write my own libc, but I don't want to fuck with syscalls and the like.
09:15:34 <alise_> Rugxulo: then I know not of it.
09:15:41 <alise_> I know it exists, yes; but none of the details.
09:15:47 <alise_> fizzie: should have found some dingbat for a wine glass or something
09:16:00 <fizzie> Possibly. I can still change it.
09:16:31 <Rugxulo> http://c--sphinx.narod.ru/indexe.htm
09:16:57 <Rugxulo> glottal stop looks like a question mark to me
09:17:11 <alise_> it looks like a question mark that fell and got its dot squished
09:17:26 <Rugxulo> crazy idea for an esolang: all a-based letters for instructions (a grave, a breve, etc.)
09:17:33 <alise_> Rugxulo: And here it is possible to look last year's news.
09:18:01 <alise_> C-- is just for Windows. Unacceptable.
09:18:12 <fizzie> There's the cup, ☕, but that's undeniably a cup, not a glass. The only thing that has the world "glass" in UnicodeData.txt is the hourglass, ⌛.
09:18:17 <alise_> And last release 1996; quite dire.
09:18:26 <coppro> hourglasses are awesome. go for it
09:18:28 <alise_> fizzie: call the compiler hour, or sand, then
09:18:33 <coppro> Rugxulo: that sounds like YABFV
09:18:39 <Rugxulo> "ha.zip (40k)HA archiver (1.5 times faster than the original)."
09:18:55 <Rugxulo> but I don't think it's any faster on modern machines, only old ones
09:19:24 <alise_> I guess stripped-down C with a much lighter library would be what I want
09:19:27 <Rugxulo> alise, no, not 1996, there is a circa 2003 release or such (I forget exactly)
09:19:36 <alise_> (like, ideally most of the library functions would be inline)
09:19:48 <Rugxulo> it's basically a C subset closely bound to assembly, almost like a HLL assembler with flow control
09:20:13 <Rugxulo> I think the *nix asmutils project has a tiny libc, and dietlibc implements a lot of stuff in assembly
09:20:27 <alise_> yes, asmutils has a tiny libc
09:20:31 <alise_> I can never use dietlibc because of its license.
09:20:33 <Rugxulo> 1996 was Celik's last version, I think, later maintained by new dude
09:20:55 <coppro> alise_: If IR wasn't meant to be written, why does it exist? Far easier for a program to generate LLVM code directly
09:20:57 <alise_> Yes, not even LGPL; and the guy is clearly quite mad, saying it's to stop Microsoft stealing his code.
09:21:09 <alise_> coppro: Insanity/stupidity!
09:21:21 <Rugxulo> P.S. ha (C-- rewrite) was a lot faster than original on my 486, but 7-Zip is like 2x faster still (and better compression)
09:21:41 <Rugxulo> yes, I know, he dislikes MS
09:22:11 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, some things should never be GPL if you intend wide use ... but GPL is a political force, so it's pretty much everywhere (and not really unreasonable for most things)
09:22:35 <alise_> Yes, but what /is/ unreasonable for my use is using a libc that requires all my code to be under the Holy Oversight of rms' license.
09:22:47 <alise_> You cannot even distribute OTHER PEOPLE'S CODE compiled with dietlibc, if it is not GPL.
09:22:56 <alise_> So it is COMPLETELY useless for any distribution, for one.
09:23:04 <alise_> (Linux distro, that is)
09:23:12 <alise_> I mean, I love the code -
09:23:12 <Rugxulo> but most Linux geeks prefer GPL anyways
09:23:15 <alise_> but the ideology spoilt it.
09:23:23 <Rugxulo> assembly isn't really that bad
09:23:27 <alise_> Yes, but most Linux geeks - in fact almost ALL, even rms -
09:23:29 <coppro> I like GPL, but for a libc? bleh
09:23:32 <alise_> say that you should use LGPL for licenses
09:23:43 <alise_> because that's why it was created: because the GPL was worthless for licenses
09:23:43 <Rugxulo> RMS is so pedantic as to not use a computer whose BIOS isn't even open (which most aren't)
09:23:56 <alise_> Not pedantry; zealotry.
09:24:02 * Rugxulo doesn't think Linux even uses the BIOS, even at bootup???
09:24:06 <alise_> And while I dislike the man, I'd feel uneasy if /someone/ wasn't doing it.
09:24:16 <coppro> RMS is so zealous that he won't even use a non-open BIOS, and yet even he advocates the LGPL
09:24:36 <alise_> And it really /is/ a shame, because the code was so nice.
09:25:06 <alise_> And I would love to use it, but even if I committed to using GPL for all my own stuff -- which I won't, I simply strongly dislike the license -- I can't change other people's licenses, and so I could not make the distribution I wanted to.
09:25:07 <Rugxulo> we're still stuck with lousy software patents (at least in U.S.)
09:25:20 <alise_> Nobody would have been harmed had I been able to link other people's non-GPL code with dietlibc.
09:25:31 <alise_> It would not be tainted in any way; in fact, it'd probably be a nice little microdistro.
09:25:42 <Rugxulo> well, all licenses are fairly useless and counter-productive, IMHO, because they only deal with stupid stuff
09:25:42 <alise_> And so that's the sacrifice you make when you use GPL in situations where it's inappropriate:
09:25:49 <alise_> Your ideology maintained; at the cost of uselessness.
09:26:01 <alise_> I just use MIT or WTFPL depending on my mood.
09:26:05 <Rugxulo> anything can be abused, GPL or not
09:26:12 <Rugxulo> so a license can't stop that anyways
09:26:13 <alise_> WTFPL cannot be abused, certainly.
09:26:28 <Rugxulo> I mean used in a negative manner towards someone else (e.g. viruses)
09:26:46 <alise_> and really... when is microsoft going to "steal" some linux-specific minimalist libc
09:27:02 <alise_> in fact i think a lot of the "bad corporations STEALING!!" fluff from gpl advocates is basically egoism...
09:27:03 <Rugxulo> if they haven't already ... various companies have done that before
09:27:13 <alise_> "I made this code; it's mine; you MUST acknowledge it's mine by not doing things I don't like with it"
09:27:16 <alise_> get over it, seriously
09:27:27 <alise_> in the long term you are not harmed
09:27:35 <Rugxulo> the whole purpose of Gzip / Deflate was to have an unpatented compression method, and MS definitely uses it, enjoys all the benefits, but patents everything else out the wazoo
09:27:52 <alise_> who would care if not for a sense of attachment they have to their code?
09:27:54 <Rugxulo> by them using Gzip? nobody
09:27:57 <alise_> Rugxulo: but that's unrelated
09:28:00 <alise_> the latter is what i'm talking about
09:28:06 <alise_> of course, patents are completely useless and the whole system should be abolished
09:28:13 <alise_> so is copyright though :P
09:28:20 <alise_> "Welcome to the home of my Scheme interpreter/compiler, 'dream', written in x86 machine language. :-) "
09:28:23 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, we're wasting a lot of effort reinventing the wheel over silly incompatible licenses (even GPLv2 vs. v3)
09:28:24 <alise_> All essential syntax and procedures from the R4RS standard are implemented.
09:28:25 <alise_> The interpreter is properly tail recursive and passes all applicable tests from the 'r4rstest.scm' test suite.
09:28:25 <alise_> Rational arithmetic with 32 bit magnitude numerator and denominator, or up to 262112 bit magnitude if the GMP library is available, is supported (with sign stored separately), but no Real or Complex numbers (these currently are in the works).
09:29:38 <coppro> roller coaster tycoon!
09:29:50 <Rugxulo> fizzie, did you see my latest (lame) B93 creation?
09:30:12 <alise_> Rugxulo: was written entirely in asm
09:30:26 <coppro> friggin awesome game too
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09:30:40 <Rugxulo> people do write big projects in asm
09:30:50 <Rugxulo> it's just not as heavily publicized as (C,C++,Java, etc.)
09:31:06 <alise_> sometimes mad in a good way
09:31:56 <Rugxulo> fizzie: http://www.pastebin.org/197670
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09:32:48 <alise_> coppro: you might as well marry me, nobody else will {this is how twisted joke logic works without sleep}
09:32:58 <alise_> see, i scared him off.
09:34:31 * Rugxulo loves how his browser has to download several hundred kb of ads just to download a 20k file
09:37:05 <Rugxulo> this new Opera 10.5 interface is a bit "hidden" by default, so it's slightly more cumbersome to find stuff
09:44:55 <Rugxulo> bah, stupid Javascript Befunge (buggy)
09:45:25 <Rugxulo> did you hear the hugely funny irony that Parrot's Befunge only had like two tests while HQ9+ had 13?
09:46:03 <Rugxulo> well how hard do you have to test a HQ9+ interpreter?????
09:46:29 <alise_> ld: i386 architecture of input file `libc.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 out
09:46:47 <Rugxulo> what are you trying to do?
09:49:10 <Rugxulo> maybe, not sure honestly (don't use *nix much, esp. not 64-bit)
09:49:54 <Rugxulo> apparently "ld -A ARCH" or "--architecture ARCH" is supported
09:50:02 <alise_> how you know apt has finished installing your package: update manager pops up
09:51:10 <alise_> now how do i statically link with it??? oh of course, libc.a is already there
09:51:12 <alise_> Rugxulo: for a libc :P
09:51:35 <Rugxulo> (and apparently, as I found out yesterday, you have to use -all-static for libtool)
09:51:51 <Rugxulo> else it's only static for external stuff, not libc etc.
09:52:51 <alise_> /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory
09:53:12 <Rugxulo> you must have to install the 32-bit libs and headers and such
09:53:21 <Rugxulo> (if AnMaster gets here, he can probably help)
09:53:30 <alise_> yeah but i already have a 32-bit libc
09:53:32 <alise_> just the stupid gnu headers
09:54:06 <alise_> ia32-libs is already the newest version.
09:54:06 <alise_> ia32-libs set to manually installed.
09:54:45 <alise_> ah, i need some sort of glibc devel
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09:55:15 <Rugxulo> Linux is so developer unfriendly sometimes
09:57:42 <Rugxulo> it seems developers are the least of all to properly make it easy to compile anything
09:57:53 <alise_> /usr/bin/ld: errno: TLS definition in /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.3.3/../../../../lib32/libc.a(errno.o) section .tbss mismatches non-TLS reference in /home/jane/asmutils-0.18/lib/libc.a(libc.o)
09:58:08 <fizzie> libc6-dev-i386, but you probably found that already.
09:58:21 <Rugxulo> probably an incompatibility in asmutils' libc
09:58:46 <Rugxulo> well, for one, I've never even heard of .tbss
09:58:53 <Rugxulo> but TLS maybe means thread local storage??
09:59:22 <Rugxulo> what exactly are you trying to build?
09:59:32 <alise_> not thread local storage i am sure, this is ld errors
09:59:38 <alise_> just a simple binary with asmutils libc.
09:59:56 <Rugxulo> like I said, OpenWatcom is probably a better idea, but that's just MHO
10:00:24 <Rugxulo> seriously, it has Linux binaries now
10:01:36 <Rugxulo> http://owbuilder.malakovi.cz/snapshot/binl/
10:01:57 <Rugxulo> although the proper installers (e.g. Win32, OS/2, DOS) should have all host files also (last I checked, 1.8 did)
10:02:14 <Rugxulo> the installers are actually just .ZIP sfx files, IIRC
10:02:31 <alise_> openwatcom is just /not/ in any universe i'm in or want to bein
10:02:56 <Rugxulo> why not? it produces small code, and static ELF for Linux, to boot
10:03:19 <alise_> oh, of course, i forgot -nostdlib
10:03:25 <alise_> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 00000000080480c0
10:03:26 <Rugxulo> of course, if you rely on ./configure or POSIX instead of just ANSI or C99, you're out of luck
10:03:29 <alise_> but hey, it almost works
10:03:34 <alise_> Hello, world! 4286731992
10:04:12 <Rugxulo> you still never said what exactly you're trying to build
10:04:34 <Rugxulo> http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Exploring_Windows_3.x
10:04:50 <Rugxulo> first freakin' sentence of the article: "Windows 3.x is, thankfully, obsolete."
10:05:15 <alise_> <alise_> just a simple binary with asmutils libc.
10:05:21 <Rugxulo> yes, but you didn't say what
10:06:11 <alise_> jane@jane-desktop:~/code/libc$ wc -c hello
10:06:12 <alise_> jane@jane-desktop:~/code/libc$ wc -c hello.diet
10:06:17 <alise_> diet libc is slimmer than asmutils.
10:06:35 <alise_> also, diet is 64-bit if you want.
10:08:15 <alise_> to be quite honest trying to improve the libc is utter folly
10:08:19 <alise_> as it's so hideously broken in many, many ways
10:09:33 <Rugxulo> the idea of libc in general or just Linux libc?
10:09:50 <alise_> the functions etc. in the specification of the c library.
10:10:14 <alise_> to start with, buffer overflows galore; secondly, many inconsistencies; thirdly, no real concept of "string" but plenty of functions purporting to operate on """"strings""""...
10:10:17 <Rugxulo> obviously many (esp. GNU dudes) are more POSIX-oriented these days
10:10:32 <alise_> oh, and complaings 5-500: gets() exists/existed at some point
10:10:42 <alise_> basically it's a horribly designed library in every wya.
10:10:46 <Rugxulo> yes, I knew you'd mention that one ;-)
10:11:04 <Rugxulo> you don't have to use it exclusively ... heck, some people use both C and assembly intermixed
10:11:13 <Rugxulo> mostly for OS portability (see Paul Carter's tutorial)
10:11:21 <alise_> i don't care; it's still an abomination because a perfectly good library-for-C COULD be made.
10:11:52 <Rugxulo> http://fasmlib.x86asm.net/ (but it's dead)
10:15:55 <Rugxulo> no more updates will be coming, but it looks nice
10:17:06 <alise_> fprintc(f, c); fprints(f, s); fprintf(f, fmt, ...); printc(c); prints(s); printf(fmt, ...);
10:17:11 <alise_> ^ can't even get simple consistent naming right.
10:18:07 <Rugxulo> which are a macro and (fairly useless) function
10:18:09 <alise_> are you trying to /rebut/ my point?
10:18:14 <alise_> also, puts is perfectly useful.
10:18:23 <Rugxulo> useful, yes, but not often
10:20:45 <alise_> oh, and of course, f?prints would not print a newline, as there is clearly no call for it to do so...
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10:44:42 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> (if AnMaster gets here, he can probably help) <-- hi
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11:20:46 <alise_> fff who wants to join me in my quest to make computers awesome :P
11:37:12 <alise_> ugh coq is so suboptimal
11:39:27 <alise_> asserts should be transparent
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12:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Ackerman function for? What is interesting about it other than the fact that it generates really huge numbers really quickly?
12:05:22 <alise_> First computable, non-primitive-recursive function discovered.
12:06:25 <alise_> Basically people thought primitive-recursive = computable, but it turns out it's a subset.
12:06:38 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_function
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12:08:37 <hiato> alise_: it wasn't the first
12:10:21 <alise_> hiato: first discovered, it was.
12:10:21 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: study CS/maths.
12:10:22 <alise_> but, like, computability-oriented CS is basically mathematics.
12:10:44 <hiato> alise_: I'm sure it was not. But let me check
12:11:02 <hiato> alise_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan_function
12:11:27 <alise_> In the late 1920s, the mathematicians Gabriel Sudan and Wilhelm Ackermann, students of David Hilbert, were studying the foundations of computation. Sudan is credited with inventing the lesser-known Sudan function, the first published function that is recursive but not primitive recursive. Shortly afterwards and independently, in 1928, Ackermann published his own recursive but not primitive recursive function.[2]
12:12:19 <hiato> I'm afraid being right or wrong is absolute here :P
12:12:47 <alise_> Yes, but I mean, it was independent.
12:12:50 <alise_> So that's the interest, still.
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12:16:51 <alise_> give me your answer do
12:17:56 <alise_> hey, I was just dying over here
12:18:08 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: heh, no more :P
12:18:34 <alise_> You guys don't even know what happens when he's unplugged? Sheesh.
12:19:39 <alise_> I'm talking about the film; I'm too uncouth to read the book.
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> give me your answer do
12:21:06 <alise_> [film stops making even the slightest amount of sense]
12:25:13 <Phantom_Hoover> For heaven's sake, was it *that* hard for them to remember that there is no sound in space?
12:26:44 <alise_> [somewhere, sometime, somebody synchs up a certain Pink Floyd song, and rewinds]
12:26:45 <alise_> [lots of Pings, lots of stuff]
12:26:45 <alise_> overhead the albatross etc.
12:30:43 <alise_> "Echoes" "supposedly" synchronises with the last part.
12:30:55 <alise_> I'm not so sure it does but it sure was trippy
12:32:53 <hiato> wth are you guys on about?
12:33:12 <alise_> hiato: 2001, & Pink Floyd in my case; & their respective relationships.
12:33:48 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: D Minor
12:34:06 <hiato> i think that's miniD
12:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but according to Google Dminor is a Microsoft language.
12:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/downloads/cd60cdb0-353f-48b3-81d7-177621eba1bf/default.aspx
12:41:27 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: lol, really? I made that up :P
12:41:39 <hiato> well, evidentally not
12:42:17 <hiato> How accurate my imagination can be?
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12:43:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm I think it might be a good idea to call C# D♭ instead
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12:46:52 <hiato> AnMaster: I'll have you know that due to your silly unicode error there, FFX now thhinks the bloody log is a binary file
12:47:15 <AnMaster> hiato, also afaik that was proper unicode?
12:47:22 <AnMaster> at least my client is set to send unicode
12:47:22 <hiato> Or, perhaps it was myndzi
12:47:38 <hiato> that it was myndzi
12:47:52 <hiato> Yeah, he had escape characters
12:48:04 <hiato> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.05.02
12:48:10 <AnMaster> like a diode but only one direction? ;)
12:48:13 <hiato> I get it as a bin file
12:48:36 <AnMaster> hiato, can't do anything about that *shrug*
12:48:51 <AnMaster> also unicode is fairly common in here
12:49:24 <hiato> AnMaster: I know, but it's just strange that it was now picked up as binary mime type
12:49:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm, compose key if only I could get it to read my customisations of that
12:49:50 <hiato> fdulu@chippy> file 10.05.02 ---> 10.05.02: data
12:50:11 <AnMaster> hiato, try removing my line from it and see what happens
12:50:42 <hiato> meh I just rm'd it, but okay
12:51:28 <hiato> fdulu@chippy> file 10.05.02 --> 10.05.02: UTF-8 Unicode English text, with very long lines
12:51:38 <hiato> Proof if ever were one needed :P
12:52:17 <AnMaster> hiato, well I know I sent it as unicode
12:52:46 <hiato> Naah, it was myndzi liens, not yours
12:53:52 <AnMaster> btw checking my own log files (rotated monthly) for freenode: http://sprunge.us/gYNb
12:54:09 <AnMaster> I wonder how it concluded it was C code...
12:55:45 <hiato> what ISO standard are you guys using?
12:56:58 <hiato> then whta the hell is all theis stuff
12:57:51 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you use sort -n twice? <-- uniq -c in between
12:58:00 <AnMaster> of course the first one could have been just sort
12:58:03 <hiato> ok, romeone do me a favour, open up xfotset and took at rgstry
12:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, ISO standards are boring. ISO 2: Twist directions for yarns.
12:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_ said that he was using ISO standard 4, which prompted me to look it up.
12:59:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and what is iso 4?
13:00:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a standardisation of the abbreviation of journal titles.
13:00:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and that is what alise_ used it for?
13:01:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, is that the official title of it?
13:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Pipe threads seem to be something to do with plumbing.
13:02:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how comes we never see that in Mario then? ;P
13:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to stop looking at ISOs before I die of boredom.
13:04:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, where is that list?
13:08:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that there must be an ISO standard for the format of ISO standards.
13:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22personal+pin+number%22 This saddens me.
13:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, "Personal" makes no sense in the context of PINs.
13:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There are hundreds of thousands of people with each PIN, assuming an even distribution.
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13:35:13 <alise_> An unpublished dockumente.
13:49:36 <alise_> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html goddamnit i want this font!
13:51:58 <hiato> The regular is absolutely free.
13:53:04 <alise_> the regular, yes, but i have this crazy tendency to use bold and italic in my text.
13:53:32 <hiato> alise_: In a font? Why should that matter?
13:53:48 <alise_> I am not sure you understand.
13:53:51 <hiato> It's not like arial becomes arial thick when you use bold
13:53:59 <alise_> What do you mean, why should that matter?
13:54:05 <hiato> It's all in one font
13:54:09 <alise_> Are you saying that the computer can automatically italicise and embolden text?
13:54:16 <alise_> And that it does this for existing fonts?
13:54:34 <alise_> hiato: The "regular being absolutely free" means a font with only non-bold, non-italic glyphs: i.e. regular glyphs.
13:54:49 <alise_> hiato: Then you are a fool who knows nothing of typography.
13:54:54 <alise_> Italic IS NOT the same thing as slanted.
13:54:59 <alise_> Computers can slant; the result is hideously inappropriate for italic text.
13:55:09 <alise_> Italics are almost always separate glyph-sets.
13:55:14 <alise_> The same goes for bold.
13:55:24 <hiato> I, for instance, know that my current font (terminus) only har once set of glyphs - regular. But, *this* is bold nonetheless
13:55:51 <alise_> Terminus, sure, a monospaced font.
13:55:54 <alise_> Do you really think that has any bearing on good typography?
13:56:09 <alise_> If I didn't care about the quality, readability and beauty of my text... I wouldn't care what typeface I was using.
13:56:24 <hiato> alise_: I dont follow
13:56:37 <alise_> Where, exactly, do you stop following?
13:56:46 <hiato> and no, I do not know "anything about typography"
13:56:54 <alise_> Where, exactly, do you stop following?
13:57:29 <hiato> Are you saying that computer glyph alteration is only avaliable for monospace fonls?
13:57:37 <alise_> hiato: OK; do you not understand the difference between italic type and slanted type?
13:57:43 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_type Look at the two examples here.
13:57:50 <alise_> "Italic" denotes something /very/ different from slanted type.
13:58:05 <alise_> With monospaced fonts, it doesn't really matter: they have basically no fidelity or typographical quality anyway, at least old-school ones.
13:58:20 <alise_> But if we're talking actual, readable, modern type: slanting is not /nearly/ the same thing as italics, and it is hideous.
13:58:45 <hiato> alise_: If you insnit. Dina, for instance, is yet another counter-example
13:59:10 <alise_> Are you perhaps confusing amateur monospaced fonts with actual proportional typefaces?
13:59:15 <alise_> You know, that have things like "kerning".
13:59:34 <hiato> I'm not sure. What is that?
14:00:17 <alise_> Well, here is the sign that discussing typography with you probably requires a whole background introduction first. :)
14:00:37 <alise_> Safe to say that all the serif fonts, and some of the sans-serif fonts, you use on your computer, definitely have italic versions.
14:00:40 <hiato> Yep, I imagine it does
14:00:44 <alise_> Because italic type doesn't even have to be particularly slanty.
14:01:05 <alise_> Simply not the same thing: and was never believed to be so, before Windows and the like came along and fudged the fact that they didn't have proper italic glyphs in their word processor by automatically slanting.
14:03:58 <alise_> Anyway I guess a lot of people read really ugly aliased Arial on their Windows XP machines with their displays set to the wrong resolution...
14:03:58 <alise_> So it's not really something "most people" would notice.
14:03:58 <alise_> But once you've noticed it once you never stop.
14:03:58 <alise_> Now how much does Calluna cost... :-)
14:06:21 <alise_> Well, I shall start saving up.
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14:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, does anyone here have much experience with graphicsy things?
14:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried #ubuntu but it was as helpful as a bag of ferrets.
14:38:53 <fizzie> That sounds very helpful.
14:39:00 <alise_> Hey, bags of ferrets are retarded in a cute sort of way.
14:39:04 <alise_> #ubuntu is just retarded.
14:39:15 <alise_> Also, ferrets occasionally acknowledge your existence
14:39:25 <fizzie> What *can't* you do with a bag of ferrets?
14:39:53 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: You could replace your computer with a bag of ferrets.
14:40:03 <alise_> Now I want a bag of ferrets.
14:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Bags of ferrets can't do interesting things like browse the internet.
14:40:19 <fizzie> I got kicked out of (IRCnet's) #linux.fi for associating with "the wrong sort of people".
14:40:39 <fizzie> But it is a channel like that.
14:40:50 <alise_> fizzie: What sort of people would that be?
14:41:06 <alise_> Also, EFnet/IRCnet + Finnish people; most hostile environment conceivable?
14:41:09 <fizzie> Some years earlier I had gotten kicked out of there for being too quiet.
14:41:13 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes they can.
14:41:19 <alise_> They can browse all the portions of the internet contained within a bag of ferrets.
14:41:41 <fizzie> The sort of people who don't like newcomers to their precious channel.
14:41:57 <alise_> I thought Finns disliked conversation.
14:42:02 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, they may know certain things about esoteric programming language.
14:42:14 <alise_> Mostly things that involve looking at you blankly.
14:42:26 <fizzie> Oh, you meant the wrong people. Those were people associatd with an organization of sorts.
14:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they have a non-Indo-European language. The Finns. Not the ferrets.
14:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Though ferrets don't have an Indo-European language either.
14:42:55 <alise_> Well, I can't vouch for the Finns, but the ferrets certainly do.
14:43:18 <alise_> fizzie: You can say cult, we won't judge. :P
14:43:24 <alise_> (Or ULTIMAT WAREZ SKENE GRUUP.)
14:43:57 <fizzie> More culty than warezy, but perhaps a bit quirky.
14:45:06 <fizzie> It was a Finnish thing, not so explicable or known.
14:45:27 <fizzie> I don't suppose Deewiant has been in any way involved with the "irtie" folks? (It's a small country, but maybe not quite *that* small.)
14:49:14 <alise_> http://i.imgur.com/qlrHy.jpg
14:49:29 <fizzie> alise_: Courtesy of Google Translate: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irti_El%25C3%25A4m%25C3%25A4st%25C3%25A4&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjvvQORGLzfbaRDVUUWmIh_WJZcOQ
14:49:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Irti elämästä, I mean.
14:49:45 <alise_> Translating Finnish; this sounds fun.
14:49:56 <fizzie> It looked pretty hilarious.
14:50:13 <Deewiant> Don't know of that either, I don't think.
14:50:22 <fizzie> I wasn't a member or anything, I just knew too many people involved.
14:50:23 <alise_> I want to write a really simple raycasterish thing.
14:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/e/e8/WatermelonCat.jpg
14:50:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay; it was a long shot, anyway.
14:51:40 * alise_ tries to load the translated page
14:52:27 <alise_> http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Ferret-Sleeping-Bag
14:53:44 <fizzie> Can't find anything official in English. Just a vaguely computer/nerdery-related association.
14:54:28 * Phantom_Hoover needs to go now, so shall crash his GPU again for data-acquisitory purposes.
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15:00:05 <alise_> I never knew OpenOffice could edit equations.
15:01:20 <fizzie> Isn't there an equation editor in MS Office too?
15:02:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall one from years past; and they have to try to include all Office features, after all.
15:05:12 <alise_> Yes; it's better than OpenOffice's too :P
15:13:07 <alise_> Also, is it just me or is the Pentium III way better than the P4 in every way?
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15:18:33 <fizzie> It must be just you; 3 < 4.
15:27:02 <alise_> It would be nice to have some sort of symbolic-numeric library for C, like so: http://pastie.org/942428.txt?key=jkk2tre903q6vbcuclnjw
15:27:09 <alise_> I think Ginac is basically that for C++, but still.
15:27:15 <alise_> Of course ginac benefits from operator overloading.
15:34:28 <alise_> Still, it would be Handy with a capital Y.
15:35:25 <alise_> I wonder if there's some Utterly Horrible Trick you could use to make x+y work.
15:35:37 <alise_> Perhaps define X and Y, as the existing variables, as something ending in a quote mark, so it ends up looking like
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16:01:43 * pikhq is up earlier than would be liked
16:07:02 <pikhq> alise_: Dear God I gave you a stupid answer last night regarding "time".
16:07:19 <pikhq> Some of those times were 24 hour, some were 12 hour.
16:07:34 <alise_> Well /that/ explain the huge disrepancy that I POINTED OUT...
16:08:40 <pikhq> 17:08 UTC+12, 15:08 Chamorro, 02:08 Atlantic, 01:08 Eastern, 00:08 Central, 23:08 Mountain, 22:08 Pacific, 21:08 Alaska, 20:08 Hawaii-Aleutian, 19:08 Samon, 17:08 UTC-12.
16:09:17 <pikhq> And those first two times are wrong. GAH.
16:09:36 <pikhq> Not to mention several hours ago.
16:09:48 <pikhq> I... Should get some coffee.
16:09:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, shouldn't UTC+12 == UTC-12 always be the case when you don't include the date?
16:10:17 <pikhq> I should get some coffee.
16:10:32 -!- hiato has joined.
16:10:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if the first two are wrong then the last one must be wrong too
16:11:09 <alise_> do you know what i am going to do
16:12:23 <pikhq> ... Go downstairs?
16:15:04 <alise_> i have an urge to either
16:15:13 <alise_> (a) write up yet another basic architecture for a non-sucky os, or
16:15:19 <alise_> (b) spec a totally solid state machine
16:15:27 <alise_> the former is better, the latter is easier and short term funner
16:15:32 <alise_> guess which i'll end up doing, probably.
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16:57:41 <oerjan> although i'm pretty new and incompetent at it
16:58:59 <oerjan> but not the channel founder, that is andreou who no one has seen for years
16:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> How can one found a channel in the first place, other than by being the first to join it?
16:59:45 * oerjan ponders if there's a reference there he doesn't get
17:00:02 <oerjan> freenode has a channel registration system
17:00:22 <oerjan> so andreou was presumably the one to register it
17:00:49 <oerjan> ChanServ handles channels, like NickServ handles nicks
17:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose that someone must have made a language that uses chess notation.
17:02:13 * oerjan notes that Phantom_Hoover hasn't registered his nick
17:02:47 <oerjan> or well you did but you aren't logged in
17:03:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:03:44 * oerjan isn't so good with those bots - it's like they duplicate functionality that _should_ have been in the server itself if things were logical
17:03:59 <oerjan> so i used /whois to check your nick first, since that's the server command
17:05:31 <oerjan> and i have this vague idea that bans should probably go through chanserv, rather than using my clients /kickban command which is easier
17:06:05 <oerjan> which may be the main thing i need to learn to be an efficient op
17:06:32 <oerjan> otoh i haven't yet had a serious _use_ for my op powers :D
17:07:02 <alise_> opping #esoteric is a dull job.
17:07:07 <alise_> Nothing needs to be done most days.
17:07:54 <oerjan> of course /kickban is probably sufficient for less persistent spammers
17:09:25 <oerjan> they're not very persistent
17:09:45 <alise_> most even /admit/ to trolling
17:09:47 <oerjan> ok there was one banned the other month
17:09:55 <alise_> one got unbanned (unfortunately)
17:10:00 <oerjan> yes but one was unbanne... right
17:10:03 <alise_> but he's been silent since so... sssh
17:10:06 <augur> im reading the jargon file's section on hacker writing style
17:10:11 <augur> its nothing but me in there D:
17:10:23 <oerjan> alise_: our channel is simply too boring to troll :D
17:10:23 <augur> actually more :D than anything
17:10:37 <alise_> augur: ignore the jargon file
17:10:40 <oerjan> we're too reasonable or something
17:10:47 <augur> hush your face alise_ >|
17:10:55 <alise_> esr is just a masturbatory, egotistical blowhard who likes putting his own coinages in there and making ludicrous assertions like most hackers are conservatives.
17:11:11 <alise_> seriously. if there is one thing every sane or insane person must do, it is to IGNORE ESR.
17:11:39 <oerjan> well, he _did_ maintain c-intercal for a while
17:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Though he ceased to be amusing when he blamed Turing for what happened to him.
17:11:53 <alise_> I bet augur would like his article about literally channeling a sex goddess when he was a teenager (IIRC)
17:11:57 <alise_> (it was quite serious)
17:12:02 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what?
17:12:15 <augur> alise_: where's it say anything about conservativism
17:12:18 <alise_> Blaming... Turing... for being gay...
17:12:32 <alise_> augur: lemme find it for you
17:12:54 <augur> oh see, im reading the old version then, i guess
17:13:06 <augur> http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_59.html#SEC66
17:13:13 <alise_> augur: basically it states that blah blah before 9/11 or something
17:13:15 <alise_> and then yo conservatives man
17:15:19 <augur> dont know if i care
17:15:33 -!- alise__ has joined.
17:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, he's the right-wing version of Stallman. In very loose terms.
17:15:41 <alise__> <alise_> also he put "gandhicon" in there after he was the only person to say it, ever.
17:15:46 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-Israel's actions
17:15:48 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-guns guns & MOAR GUNZ
17:15:50 <alise__> <alise_> - I could go on...
17:15:52 <alise__> <alise_> basically take anything he says with a grain of shit. he sucks at technology too.
17:15:55 <alise__> <alise_> hey, he wrote fetchmail though!
17:15:58 <alise__> <alise_> even more annoying is that the original jargon file was /wonderful/
17:16:00 <alise__> <alise_> and esr came along and shat on it
17:16:01 <augur> alise__: whats a guns gun
17:16:02 <alise__> augur: Um, ESR is who maintains the Jargon File now.
17:16:04 <alise__> Although I hesitate to call it that as IMO he had no right whatsoever to mangle the original.
17:16:12 <alise__> pro-{guns guns & MOAR GUNZ}
17:16:19 <pikhq> He's notable for maintaining the Jargon file poorly, being right wing, and working on not a hell of a lot of software.
17:16:34 <augur> also, i dont care about the current jargon file. i was reading the original. :P
17:16:34 <pikhq> Some Emacs, C-Intercal, and fetchmail.
17:16:40 <augur> or some older version of it
17:16:54 <pikhq> augur: Well, he has a few things in the original.
17:16:55 <augur> http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_toc.html
17:17:14 <alise__> outpost9; that domain reminds me of something...
17:17:18 <alise__> -- basically everything nice in the jargon file is in the old versions,
17:17:21 <alise__> and everything esr added is shit
17:17:23 <alise__> so there's no reason to use his at all
17:17:29 <pikhq> Though, so did pretty much everyone who was around the old jargon file.
17:17:39 <alise__> also, that outpost9 is not loading for me now
17:17:44 <alise__> also, esr even removed terms!
17:17:47 <alise__> just because they were not from HIS sector of the culture, UNIX
17:17:55 <alise__> to "reflect the modern world" yeah right
17:17:56 -!- alise_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:18:33 <alise__> new hacker's dictionary is esr publication
17:18:52 <alise__> apparently that's pre- the amendment to that article, though
17:18:56 <alise__> or maybe it was another one, can't remember.
17:19:03 <alise__> augur: The Hacker's Dictionary is the non-esr version
17:19:54 <alise__> augur: http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html here's the original, sloppily HTML-formatted
17:20:57 <alise__> hey wait i just realised i have monday off!!!
17:21:51 <augur> is a house or a bin
17:22:00 <augur> lets not be wishy washy with our words here
17:22:00 <alise__> It's a bin... formed into a house!
17:22:00 <pikhq> augur: It's a binhouse.
17:22:01 <oerjan> is 3rd of may a british holiday?
17:22:04 <alise__> pikhq: Noooo I don't want to
17:22:07 <alise__> oerjan: bank holiday monday
17:22:17 <alise__> pikhq: I will sleep early tonight, you see
17:22:24 <augur> alise__: remind me, do you like Doctor Who or not?
17:22:31 <pikhq> augur: He's British.
17:22:33 <alise__> and thus, accounting for ultra-tiredness but still getting to bed early, will wake up at an OK time tomorrow
17:22:37 <oerjan> britain, where the banks get their own holidays
17:22:39 <alise__> but i haven't seen the latest ones of the new seriezzz
17:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: And the US.
17:22:51 <augur> alise__: thinkgeek sells 10th and 11th doctor sonic screwdrivers.
17:23:06 <alise__> Who the heck would get sonic?
17:23:29 <alise__> ...also, thanks but no thanks. Unless it actually features the supernatural powers of the original.
17:23:39 <alise__> If I bought everything cool from ThinkGeek, I'd have less than no money.
17:23:47 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: WAY TOO CAMP FOR HIS OWN GOOD.
17:24:19 <alise__> Ehhhhhh I liked him at the time but Tennant was just so much better
17:24:20 <augur> dunno if 9th doctor had a different screwdriver than 10
17:25:07 <alise__> I don't notice them changing.
17:25:10 <oerjan> they're all a bit screwy *runs away*
17:25:16 <alise__> I didn't even know they changed, until now.
17:25:18 <augur> alise__: 11's is very different
17:25:26 <alise__> Yeah I've only seen two eps of 11
17:25:56 <augur> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/8cff/
17:26:04 <augur> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/collectibles/d7d8/
17:26:17 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'd not iPlayer when I could get them in HD for free.
17:26:27 <alise__> Two, I sort of have other priorities; though I see you don't know of them.
17:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, they rebuilt 10's after they noticed that the merchandise was better than the prop.
17:30:31 <augur> i need to find a place to get nitrous
17:30:36 <alise__> RECURSION n. See RECURSION, TAIL RECURSION.
17:30:40 <alise__> Amusingly, RECURSION is the tail recursion here.
17:30:49 <HackEgo> * weathervane: mechanical device attached to an elevated structure; rotates freely to show the direction of the wind \ * a fin attached to the tail of an arrow, bomb or missile in order to stabilize or guide it \ * blade: flat surface that rotates and pushes against air or water
17:30:51 <alise__> as TAIL RECURSION is trivially dead code, it can be eliminated
17:31:12 <alise__> augur: You should ask #esoteric!
17:31:19 <Deewiant> Actually "," is in the tail position
17:31:20 <augur> esoteric, here can i find nitrous!
17:31:45 <alise__> augur: also, just go to the dentist a lot
17:31:59 <augur> dentists dont use nitrous here, afaik
17:32:06 <oerjan> alise__: not necessarily true in the State monad
17:32:10 <alise__> Or, you know, stop being a wimp and get some HEROIN FUCK YEAH
17:32:25 <alise__> oerjan: you're not necessarily true in the state monad nyah
17:32:31 <oerjan> or other monads where the last command might actually be accessed first
17:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you could get nitrous in whipped cream squirty things.
17:33:39 <alise__> Bitrot: a language where every instruction (also data; same thing) has an associated real F (freshness) that approaches 0 as time goes on
17:33:43 <alise__> this makes the instruction "less effective"
17:33:52 <alise__> you have to refresh instructions&data by several means.
17:34:06 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; main = print $ execState loop undefined where loop = loop >> put 5
17:35:08 <alise__> WATERBOTTLE SOCCER n. A deadly sport practiced mainly by Sussman's graduate students. It, along with chair bowling, is the most evident manifestation of the "locker room atmosphere" said to reign in that sphere. (Sussman doesn't approve.) [As of 11/82, it's reported that the sport has given way to a new game called "disc-boot", and Sussman even participates occasionally.]
17:35:19 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: That's the question underlying everything, really.
17:35:38 <alise__> WIN [from MIT jargon] 1. v. To succeed. A program wins if no unexpected conditions arise. 2. BIG WIN: n. Serendipity. Emphatic forms: MOBY WIN, SUPER WIN, HYPER-WIN (often used interjectively as a reply). For some reason SUITABLE WIN is also common at MIT, usually in reference to a satisfactory solution to a problem. See LOSE.
17:35:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i wanted to demonstrate that in haskell, loop = do loop; whatever does _not_ always mean whatever is dead code
17:35:46 <alise__> Them MITers were at it much before you interwebfangled guys.
17:37:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, the State monad.
17:38:15 <pikhq> How very lazy it is.
17:38:32 <augur> pikhq: as an anarchist, I strongly oppose the use of the State monad.
17:38:57 <pikhq> What about the Unstate monad?
17:39:13 <oerjan> augur: do anarchists support Readers?
17:39:21 <augur> whats a reader? D:
17:39:31 <alise__> we clearly need a digest function on Readers
17:39:37 <alise__> that, say, takes a bunch of reads and condenses them.
17:39:47 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; main = print $ runReader loop where loop = loop >> return 5
17:39:53 <alise__> augur: here, record of esr's fucking up the jargon file -- including the pertinent political change -- http://pastie.org/942533.txt?key=s0zg82w7irl4owgr068aq
17:39:58 <alise__> from http://www.ntk.net/2003/06/06/
17:40:08 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; main = print $ runReader loop undefined where loop = loop >> return 5
17:40:13 * Sgeo wonders when alise__ will start hallucinating
17:40:25 <alise__> Sgeo, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.
17:40:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Ford.
17:41:00 <Ford> Bah, this nick is registered
17:41:03 -!- Ford has changed nick to Sgeo.
17:41:27 <pikhq> Ah, the claim that hackers range from "moderate to neoconservative"...
17:41:27 * augur wonders when he will start hallucinating
17:41:42 <pikhq> I think ESR is the *only* neoconservative hacker.
17:42:21 <augur> whats this mention of kuro5hin
17:42:29 <pikhq> And hacker politics are anything but moderate.
17:42:32 <alise__> neoconservatism - liberalism - anarchism - he thinks they are all the same
17:42:44 <alise__> neoconservatism - libertarianism - anarchism - he thinks they are all the same
17:42:54 <alise__> (he claims to simultaneouslybe a lib & an anarchist)
17:43:05 <alise__> well i dunno about neo- conservatism
17:43:13 <alise__> but i'm sure there is some X for X-conservatism for which that holds
17:43:18 <alise__> augur: what do you mean this mention of kuro5hin
17:43:26 <augur> the link mentions kuro5hin
17:43:29 <alise__> kuro5hin guys tend to lean left, you might say ...
17:43:31 <pikhq> alise__: Y'know the modern Republican party?
17:43:33 <alise__> and also be batshit insane on average
17:43:34 <oerjan> i could also do it with a Writer monad, but then i'd need a better Monoid than lists
17:43:38 <Sgeo> alise__, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, time?
17:43:39 <alise__> pikhq: why no i don't what is this thing
17:43:42 <pikhq> That is the face of neoconservativism.
17:43:49 <alise__> Sgeo: It is on kuro5hin; what of it?
17:43:52 <pikhq> alise__: They are fucking crazy.
17:44:13 <Sgeo> alise__, the mention of kuro5hin reminded me of it, and that you wanted to read it at some point
17:44:21 <alise__> Not when I'm sleep-deprived.
17:44:49 * alise__ wonders which computer to unpack, and whether to run Ubuntu 10.04, some form of BSD, OS X, or other on it
17:45:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If I can ever get that E-SNUSP interpreter finished, there might actually be an esoteric one.
17:46:34 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; import Data.Monoid; main = print . head . getDual $ execWriter loop where loop = loop >> tell (Dual "hi")
17:46:54 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:47:14 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; import Data.Monoid; main = print . head . getDual $ execWriter loop where loop = loop >> tell (Dual ["hi"])
17:47:22 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:47:48 <oerjan> that's pretty much a nop
17:47:53 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
17:48:08 <oerjan> alas, not all the old interpreters are properly installed
17:48:27 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
17:48:51 <oerjan> that's the error message it gives for that, i think
17:49:50 <fizzie> Talking to a bot is the sign of a well-adjusted mind.
17:49:54 <fizzie> Wouldn't you agree, fungot?
17:49:54 <fungot> fizzie: even if it were
17:50:11 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: since the pre-scheme value's type is inferred from that.
17:50:20 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:50:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: oh, no, i use the proposals interface). it's also the biggest and best game i had...
17:51:16 <alise__> fungot is the best befunge-98 bot ever; also the only
17:51:17 <fungot> alise__: i guess it's a bit... terse?
17:53:33 <alise__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Calculon this language is not mathematical at all
17:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's almost as good as that proposal for Brainfuck II.
17:54:29 <oerjan> alise__: sheesh don't you know numbers == math
17:54:54 <alise__> especially a mutable stack of numbers
17:55:32 <alise__> fizzie: oh my god do you still have the q[uick]basic stuff
17:56:12 -!- coppro has joined.
17:56:29 <alise__> fizzie: Well, the ultra-illegal QuickBasic ware-ess.
17:56:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:56:46 <alise__> Oops, coppro won't be happy with me infringing copyright! :P
17:56:49 <zzo38> Should they add a code like this in anarchy golf service? http://pastebin.com/pVFjhRBq
17:57:25 <coppro> alise__: die, heathen!
17:57:41 <zzo38> Is it even correct? I don't know much about Ruby programming
17:58:00 <alise__> zzo38: what's it meant to do?
17:58:49 <coppro> doesn't Ruby use sigils?
17:58:55 <zzo38> You have to add "inputfix" field in the submit form, and then you can fix the input sent to the program, in case the input is broken
18:00:02 <zzo38> coppro: I don't know.
18:00:19 <coppro> IIRC it does, and I don't see a single sigil in that paste
18:01:07 <Deewiant> It uses some sigils but that paste doesn't need any
18:01:10 <zzo38> But this program doesn't have a lot of sigils either: http://github.com/shinh/ags/blob/master/fe/fcgi/submit.rb
18:13:40 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: Supper and cricket).
18:15:51 <alise__> The DOS cursor blinks Too Fast Aiee.
18:16:06 <alise__> coppro: ruby uses sigils for some things
18:16:11 <alise__> @foo is instance var, @@foo is class var
18:16:25 <alise__> also @foo is mostly only used for assignment of private vars
18:16:31 <alise__> since you usually define accessors so "foo" and "self.foo =" work
18:16:48 <coppro> in other news, fuck MPEG-LA
18:19:11 <zzo38> alise__: If the DOS cursor blinks too fast I think it is the video card (or BIOS) which blinks it, not DOS itself? (I wonder if it is possible to slow down the video card (and still have it work correctly)) (Also, I think it blinks OK speed, it is not too fast)
18:19:29 <coppro> things should be "amusing" come 2015
18:19:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:19:52 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: That's when the free license expires
18:20:14 <zzo38> (And then there is MegaZeux, which just emulates the cursor (and in PZX versions, blinking text as well))
18:20:14 <coppro> Unless MPEG-LA extends it again, then everyone using H.264 on the Internet for any purpose will be liable to them
18:21:03 <alise__> zzo38: I think cursors shouldn't blink at all.
18:21:17 <coppro> yeah, nethack looks bad with blinking cursors
18:21:17 <alise__> Anyway, it's DOSBox, so...
18:21:20 <alise__> No idea howto stop it blinking.
18:21:32 <alise__> Blink blink blink blink look at me I am where you are typing; you are too dumb-fuck retarded to find me otherwise.
18:21:32 <ais523> coppro: I don't mind NetHack with blinking cursors
18:21:34 <pikhq> The MPEG-LA can go to hell, as can everyone backing them.
18:21:42 <alise__> I hope you don't have epilepblink blink blink blink
18:21:56 <ais523> also, the H.64 licence isn't free for all purposes
18:22:00 <pikhq> Also: Google, could you, like, *release* VP-8?
18:22:05 <zzo38> coppro: Then use Theora for videos if you can't use H.264. Also, wouldn't the patent expire one day
18:22:07 * alise__ reenters the blissful harmony that is BASIC.
18:22:09 <pikhq> ais523: Only free for streaming.
18:22:16 <pikhq> Not *encoding* or *decoding*.
18:22:17 <alise__> theora, alas, has piss-poor quality compared to H.264.
18:22:23 <ais523> pikhq: oh, encoding needs a licence too?
18:22:27 <alise__> thankfully, most of the time you'd be illegally obtaining your H.264s too
18:22:35 <ais523> alise__: you mean, less quality per byte
18:22:37 <zzo38> alise__: Which version of BASIC? There is a lot
18:22:38 <pikhq> x264 is very illegal.
18:22:40 <coppro> ais523: Yeah. I didn't say it was. I merely said that in 2015, all uses become un-free
18:22:45 <ais523> theora can be just as high quality, it just takes around twice the space
18:22:57 <alise__> maybe if you shot up the quality lots and lots
18:23:00 <ais523> (aren't they both lossless in the limit?)
18:23:01 <fizzie> The dosbox blinker is a bit overkill, though; I don't recall my real DOS-running computers blinking quite so hard.
18:23:01 <pikhq> I only use it because, well: I'm already encoding deCSS'd DVDs. It's not like I can break the law *more*.
18:23:14 <alise__> but theora loses to h.264 pretty much no matter what
18:23:17 <coppro> in any case, legality does depend on jurisdiction
18:23:26 <zzo38> And, for sure Theora can be improved in the future, if someone can improve it more
18:23:33 <pikhq> x264 is the best h.264 encoder, IIRC.
18:23:34 <coppro> if you're outside the US, you're about 10000000x safer than inside
18:23:42 <alise__> zzo38: It isn't improved now though
18:23:45 <alise__> and some of us want high-quality video :)
18:23:47 <pikhq> zzo38: It will probably just be superceded by VP-8.
18:24:07 <ais523> H.264 is perfectly fine in the UK, though, isn't it?
18:24:13 <pikhq> Which Google *should* be releasing for free usage in $soon.
18:24:14 <zzo38> alise__: Yes. It isn't improved now. However in my opinion it is sufficient for most purposes
18:24:14 <ais523> because the only way to enforce the licences is software patents?
18:24:24 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, it's a patent license.
18:24:25 <alise__> zzo38: Some of us have good eyesight :-)
18:24:32 <ais523> the H.264 algorithm is opened source in the Microsoft sense, after all
18:24:37 <pikhq> Meaning x264 is just fine in the UK.
18:24:41 <alise__> DEFtype If BASICA encounters a variable without an explicit type (indicated by !, #, &, $, or %), it uses the default type set by the most recent DEFtype statement. For example, the type of the variable IFLAG changes from integer to single precision in the following BASICA code fragment:
18:24:41 <alise__> 10 DEFINT I 20 PRINT IFLAG 30 DEFSNG I 40 GOTO 20
18:24:57 <ais523> alise__: qbasic does that too
18:25:01 <coppro> Absolutely; if there are no software patents then there is no incentive to accept the license terms
18:25:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:25:06 <alise__> you can't change a var's type after it's defined
18:25:06 <ais523> DEFINT i and all variables starting with i become integers
18:25:08 <alise__> straight from http://zem.fi/~fis/qbu.html
18:25:15 <alise__> (which is the most beautifully-typeset QBasic manual, ever)
18:25:15 <ais523> oh, yep, you have to do it before the first use of the variable
18:25:20 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I prefer getting very good quality and low space on my already-illegal DVD rips. :)
18:25:22 <coppro> existing licenses would possibly still be enforceable
18:25:23 <alise__> fizzie: do you have one for QuickBasic, I wonder?
18:25:28 <ais523> I missed that BASICA could cast variables on the fly
18:25:33 <fizzie> They stole that feature from FORTRAN, I think.
18:25:36 <zzo38> In QBASIC it does that when the program is parsed at first instead, but other than that is the same. And I do use DEFINT in QBASIC sometimes
18:25:40 <ais523> (by the way, does it cast it as reinterpret_cast, or as static_cast?)
18:25:43 <zzo38> But usually DEFINT A-Z
18:25:59 <ais523> zzo38: why don't you use trailing sigils instead?
18:26:07 <fizzie> IMPLICIT CHARACTER(C) -- and then everything that starts with C is a character.
18:26:18 <alise__> pikhq: wait, you own DVDs?
18:26:25 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't FORTRAN have some implicits set up by default?
18:26:27 <pikhq> alise__: I'm given them.
18:26:35 <alise__> │ \\ Integer division symbol │ │ (reserved for │ │ (backslash) │ │ compatibility with other │
18:26:39 <alise__> Double escape error, fizzie?
18:26:39 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, in fact I only use DEFtype when it is A-Z otherwise I do use trailing sigils
18:26:42 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I think I, J for integers might have been defaults.
18:26:51 <zzo38> Or using AS (depending on the circumstance)
18:26:52 <pikhq> I *also* will check out DVDs from the dorm's front desk and rip them, and borrow DVDs from people for the sole purpose of renting them.
18:27:12 <alise__> Fun fact, http://zem.fi/~fis/qbu.html is better documentation than the entirety of Ruby's :P
18:27:23 <alise__> Everything you need to know, right there, 100% honest
18:27:47 <fizzie> alise__: No, I don't have the QuickBasic manuals; the scripts I were using for generating those HTML versions need the original .hlp file sources, and the Microsoft tool I found for converting from binary to the source format barfed on the actual full quickbasic manual. It's in multiple files and all; might've been too much for it.
18:27:47 <pikhq> It would seem I can *encode* 480p h.264 at 140fps on my current CPU.
18:27:48 <zzo38> If you want good quality video, perhaps you can make a video cartridge that can store uncompressed video, and can be seeked and recorded like a VCR
18:27:51 <pikhq> Which is pretty nice.
18:28:08 <alise__> fizzie: I'll just use the QBasic manual + Google for QuickBasic, then.
18:28:12 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, interesting idea
18:28:15 <alise__> The main advantage is programs running faster, anyway.
18:28:25 <pikhq> zzo38: The only reason we don't deal in losslessly compressed video is that it uses a *lot* of space.
18:28:42 <ais523> probably in the future, storage will be voluminous and fast enough that people won't bother compressing at all
18:28:46 <ais523> but it might take another 10 to 20 years
18:28:48 <alise__> I like how anime encoders take it even further than, you know, just insanely high-quality x264; they literally play with quality settings for months.
18:28:53 <pikhq> I had 20G for a lossless 1080p copy of Elephant's Dream.
18:28:53 <alise__> Because it really matters, man!
18:29:02 <alise__> ais523: i don't know, 1080p raw HD is /very/ big
18:29:17 <pikhq> alise__: Which is kinda silly. After all, x264 is really, really good for anime.
18:29:32 <alise__> Yes; it's their main comparison material :-P
18:29:35 <pikhq> Also. 1080p raw HD is pretty big. Lossless compression of that is somewhat less so.
18:29:42 <alise__> Tbqh 90% of anime is... really easy to encode.
18:29:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know that. I'm actually talking completely uncompressed video (not just compressed losslessly), so that it can be seeked and recorded over at exact points. And I know you don't need to deal with it. I mean if someone made a large enough video cartridge with these features, like a external hard drive but optimized for video
18:29:46 <alise__> Being mostly blocks of colour.
18:29:57 <alise__> lossless decompression is slow though
18:30:10 <ais523> alise__: I wonder if anime encodes better as H.264 or as an animated GIF?
18:30:17 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that you'd expect the second would be good for
18:30:18 <pikhq> HuffYUV is "extremely fast".
18:30:34 <fizzie> 20G sounds really pretty small. Even the digital movies they distribute to real theaters aren't lossless; according to one article, they encode each frame as a separate JPEG2000 file, and distribute by sending a few-hundred-gigabyte HD around.
18:30:37 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I can believe that GIF is really that bad
18:30:44 <ais523> (MNG, if you want something more modern)
18:30:47 <pikhq> fizzie: Elephant's Dream is 10 minutes long.
18:30:54 <zzo38> Perhaps you can make "Anime Codec"?
18:30:59 <fizzie> pikhq: Oh, okay, then.
18:31:16 <alise__> Detailed images, and simple images. Handle them both,
18:31:25 <alise__> Anything that can handle the former will be trivial to extend to do the latter.
18:31:32 <pikhq> It was about 25G as individual PNGs.
18:31:36 <coppro> why did PNG reject APNG?
18:31:44 <Sgeo> The glasses even give clarity to crosseyed 3d images on my computer screen
18:31:51 <pikhq> (... I had just gotten a new terabyte drive, had Internet2 bandwidth, and was curious how much space it took up)
18:32:14 <alise__> what's the highest-res QBasic mode with good colour I wonder
18:32:27 <zzo38> alise__: How many colors do you want?
18:32:28 <ais523> 12 I think, that's 640x480
18:32:30 <pikhq> Archive.org from a university campus is *really* nice. You're limited by the Ethernet bandwidth. :)
18:32:31 <fizzie> They're the VGA video modes directly.
18:32:33 <ais523> all the higher resolutions were black-and-white IIRC
18:32:44 <alise__> that gets you 80x25 text, 640x200 graphics, and 16-pallette colour
18:32:47 <alise__> surely you can get more than 16...
18:32:58 <alise__> oh, I just need SCREEN 11 or 12
18:33:05 <ais523> alise__: 12 gets you 80x30 text, 640x480 graphics, and 16-palette colour
18:33:11 <fizzie> I guess it's missing the more screwy VGA modes you can get by mogling the registers.
18:33:19 <alise__> also my arrow keys are not working in qbasic WHY NOT
18:33:24 <alise__> ■ Assignment of up to 256K colors to 16 attributes
18:33:29 <zzo38> You can have 80x30 or 80x60 text in mode 12
18:33:35 <alise__> or are the 16 ones attributes
18:33:35 <ais523> alise__: only 16 at a time, though
18:33:40 <coppro> pikhq: what was the method for the compression?
18:33:44 <alise__> now why aren't my arrow keys working ffff
18:33:52 <ais523> alise__: also, somehow, nearly all those 256K colours were almost identical shades of green
18:34:10 <ais523> or maybe I was just getting the colour redefinition wrong
18:34:12 <fizzie> ais523: It's six bits each for R, G, B; that shouldn't all be "shades of green".
18:34:22 <pikhq> coppro: Ffmpeg HuffYUV.
18:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, know of any easy way to disassemble a file that is isn't an object file, just raw x86 instructions
18:34:27 <zzo38> No, it isn't all shades of green unless you are using the wrong range of numbers
18:34:33 <alise__> WHY DO ARROW KEYS OPEN THE MENU
18:34:40 <ais523> AnMaster: The Windows program DEBUG.COM could do it
18:35:01 <ais523> AnMaster: blit it into memory, then load it in gdb
18:35:06 <zzo38> Use the correct range of numbers for the colors, as according to the manual
18:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hah I was just about to say that there must be some simpler way than that
18:35:18 <ais523> zzo38: I think using the wrong range is likely
18:35:23 <fizzie> You can get a VGA card up to 360x480 with a 256 color-palette (out of those 256k), but qbasic "screen" command only does the standard modes, so that's limited to 320x200 for 256-color modes.
18:35:44 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I always wondered how to get that mode as a child, I knew it existed
18:35:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: nasm's "ndisasm" tool can take raw files.
18:35:54 <alise__> just had to disable scancodes
18:36:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm that would mean intel syntax but meh. didn't have nasm around on that computer
18:36:23 <AnMaster> but useful to know in the future
18:36:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: objdump -b binary -M i386
18:36:37 <coppro> hmm... I had a funny idea
18:36:43 <fizzie> ais523: If you still wonder, http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article373.asp
18:36:46 <coppro> (disclaimer: idea is not actually funny)
18:36:51 <zzo38> alise__: Can you make QBASIC vector drawings? I should need a few created for my solitaire card program? (If not alise__, anyone else will also do)
18:36:51 <pikhq> objdump -b binary -M x86-64
18:37:15 <alise__> zzo38: I'm no good at using DRAW.
18:37:16 <zzo38> I know the commands for QBASIC vector drawings but I'm not as good at actual drawing the picture
18:37:34 <ais523> myndzi: stop making the logs detect as binary rather than text
18:37:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm objdump -b binary -M x86-64 -d file.dump doesn't work, it gives me "objdump: Can't disassemble for architecture UNKNOWN"
18:38:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, and objdump --help says x86-64 should work
18:38:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: You want maybe -m instead of -M?
18:38:19 <zzo38> I have made a few vector drawings in QBASIC, such as for suits and numbers, already
18:38:34 <fizzie> -m machine, -M options.
18:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay *now* it is getting cryptic: "objdump: Can't use supplied machine x86-64"
18:38:54 <alise__> The shitty thing about QBasic: automatic syntax checking & reformatting just by moving off the line
18:38:57 <zzo38> But I don't have picture for: Oscar Wilde, Baker, Spider, King
18:39:03 <ais523> hmm, why /would/ VGA have a completely undocumented high-resolution (for the time) 256-colour mode?
18:39:33 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe it's a job security feature so that good programmers can stay employed?
18:39:39 <zzo38> alise__: You should be able to turn off the error message by a menu.
18:39:49 <ais523> fizzie: I don't even see how that would help with job security
18:39:52 <zzo38> But you can't turn off the reformatting, I think.
18:39:56 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe it was unreliable?
18:40:17 <zzo38> You can just use a different program to edit it and compile it using the command-line instead, that can work (if you have QuickBasic Extended)
18:40:35 <ais523> the page fizzie linked implies that its interface was completely insane
18:40:35 <AnMaster> ais523, so it was "disabled" in the very last minute
18:40:54 <zzo38> Do you have QBASIC vector drawings of these things?
18:41:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, looked it up in the logs because it seemed genuinely useful
18:41:14 <ais523> unlike the vast majority of links in existence
18:41:27 <alise__> "illegal function call"; thanks, real helpful.
18:41:48 <zzo38> alise__: It will highlight the line is wrong, so you can know what is wrong
18:42:03 <alise__> what's the default type in basic? or should i always use sigils...
18:42:10 <zzo38> The default type is SINGLE
18:42:15 <zzo38> Unless you use DEFtype to change the default type
18:42:22 <ais523> alise__: single-precision float
18:42:30 <zzo38> I usually change it to INTEGER by using the command DEFINT A-Z at the top of the program
18:42:46 <alise__> Hmm, my program fails rather badly at Pythagoras' theorem.
18:42:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not really. I can get a dump of a binary file for x86-32 with "objdump -b binary -m i386 -D fibre.bef" but I don't know what it will want for "-m" to do 64 bits.
18:43:11 <ais523> I normally just always use sigils, single-precision floats are generally a bad format to use nowadays unless you want to store loads in memory
18:44:08 <fizzie> pikhq: Not here, it doesn't. "Can't use supplied machine x86-64"
18:44:12 <pikhq> No, wait. i386:x86-64
18:44:28 <fizzie> Yes, that seems to work.
18:44:39 <ais523> hmm, seems that in Mode X, you store images as four images, each of which stores every fourth pixel from the originals
18:44:44 <alise__> HOW DOES THIS FAIL SO BADLY
18:45:00 <fizzie> Annoyingly, the "-i" info listing shows only "machines" (like i386), not the variants like that.
18:46:41 <alise__> Heh, what, timesing it by sqrt(2) works.
18:47:45 <fizzie> ais523: As for the job security, if the mode's a closely-guarded secret, and genuinely useful, it means you'll have to hire a programmer from the Inner Circle if you want to enjoy it.
18:48:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> I normally just always use sigils <-- sigils? Presumably some floating point format but...?
18:48:17 <AnMaster> <pikhq> No, wait. i386:x86-64 <-- ah thanks
18:48:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: The little things at the beginning or end of variables, like $foo or foo% or whatever.
18:49:11 <fizzie> "In computer programming, a sigil (pronounced /'sɪdʒ.ɪl/ or /'sɪg.ɪl/; plural sigilia or sigils) is a symbol attached to a variable name, showing the variable's datatype or scope."
18:49:24 <fizzie> (I just wanted some more IPA characters on-channel.)
18:49:39 <fizzie> Also I haven't really seen people use the "sigilia" plural anywhere.
18:49:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it sigils if the language use a single one for all types of variables?
18:50:02 <AnMaster> it has strings and arrays, both use $
18:50:15 <coppro> it designates that it is a variable
18:50:29 <fizzie> Well, it's arguable. Wikipedia disagrees, for example.
18:50:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, but what does this have to do with floating point?
18:50:42 <fizzie> "Many people confuse this [the $ in shells and Makefiles] with a sigil, but it is properly a unary operator for lexical indirection, similar to the * indirection operator for pointers in C"
18:50:51 <ais523> fizzie: reading through this guide, my personal theory is that the mode wasn't added deliberately
18:51:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: That I don't know; I haven't read the context.
18:51:01 <ais523> but happened by mistake, as a result of undefined behaviour
18:51:14 <coppro> I'll accept that argument
18:51:17 <AnMaster> ais523, but it still persisted in clones?
18:51:27 <coppro> PHP is a proper example
18:51:28 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, that's possible. It's certainly "based on" the other planar video modes.
18:51:38 <ais523> after all, if a card's designed to do graphicsy stuff, it's likely that other weird combinations are going to act in a graphicsy way
18:52:25 <fizzie> As for it still working in all later hardware, it was used quite a lot, so they'd be fools not to support it.
18:52:57 <fizzie> I wonder how well Mode X trickery works with really modern graphics cards that still do some sort of VGA, though.
18:53:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't all modern cards do a bit of VGA, for use during BIOS and such
18:54:01 <alise__> does qbasic work if you use lowercase, I woner.
18:54:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: A bit, but maybe not quite all.
18:54:40 <alise__> Yes but it just reformats it anyway :D
18:54:43 <fizzie> ais523: As for the "completely undocumented", they might be exaggerating a bit. Wikipedia article says of Mode X that: "Even though planar memory mode was a documented part of the VGA standard, it was first widely publicized in the Mode X articles, leading many programmers to consider Mode X and planar memory synonymous. It is possible to enable planar memory in standard 320x200 mode."
18:55:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean with planar memory?
18:55:29 <alise__> It is so weird how the functions disappear from the main source
18:56:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: What "Mode X" does; you get four planes, each containing every fourth pixel of the video memory, and (if you want) you can write onto all four plaines with a single-byte write.
18:56:47 <fizzie> Useful for filling large areas, for example.
18:57:03 <fizzie> A bit complicated around the edges, of course, since you have to fiddle about which planes to enable.
18:57:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, onto all planes at once?
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18:59:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: I seem to recall that the 16-color modes are all planar; every pixel is one bit in video memory, and you just enable which bitplanes you want to write. The Mode X trick just does the same for the 256-color mode, which is usually a packed-pixel "normal" mode.
18:59:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean like 8 planes, and one plane for each bit?
19:00:13 <fizzie> For 16 colors, yes, like that.
19:00:50 <alise__> Woohoo, my program successfully uses Pythagoras' theorem to draw a triangle. Now I am a genius.
19:01:03 <fizzie> It's faster, obviously, since you can plot a value on eight pixels with a single-byte write.
19:01:15 <fizzie> It's also more complicated, which is the drawback.
19:01:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, but if you don't want to overwrite 8 pixels at once?
19:01:34 <zzo38> QBASIC is not case-sensitive. It works in lowercase or uppercase
19:02:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: Then you have to read-modify-write. Or keep a copy to avoid the read.
19:02:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, what with the memory sizes back then I doubt the latter was really fun
19:02:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, and another advantage is that you only need one fourth of the addressing space you'd otherwise needs, since the bitplanes are "on top of each other".
19:02:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus you still need to update that
19:03:02 <zzo38> The instructions for GET (graphics) command will tell you how many planes there are
19:03:40 <zzo38> Usually I prefer DEFINT but in some cases (such as WEBPLOT) program, DEFDBL is more useful.
19:03:50 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, I do mean QBASIC, of course.
19:04:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, I was thinking in terms of asm here mostly
19:04:47 <zzo38> AnMaster: If you use the same screen mode in QBASIC or ASM, hopefully the number of planes should be same, you could try it to figure out
19:05:20 <ais523> hmm, it seems that the FSF are trying to join in in the Apple/Adobe mudslinging match
19:05:21 <zzo38> WEBPLOT does graphing function like the graphing calculator, but with colors and a few more functions as well
19:05:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, I'm only interested in this in an historical kind of way. I doubt I will ever write code using this...
19:05:25 <ais523> I haven't checked what they said yet
19:05:43 <zzo38> AnMaster: Then search the video mode documents
19:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what is that match? I have completely missed that.
19:05:54 <zzo38> alise__: My what are you refering to?
19:06:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: The memory space advantage is especially important here, since the usual 320*200 screen is 64000 bytes; you can't program in a square-pixel 320x240 mode because 320*240 bytes is more than 2^16 and it doesn't fit in the 64k video memory range. When you cut that down to 1/4, you can fit two 320*240 pages there, and can do hardware-driven double-buffering/page-flipping.
19:06:24 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/webplot.zip
19:06:35 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, Adobe are annoyed with Apple for not letting them compile Flash programs onto the iPhone
19:06:47 <ais523> and Apple are annoyed at Adobe for some other reason
19:07:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that, I heard about that apple forbid it, but I missed the responses.
19:07:08 <alise__> zzo38: compiled -- with quickbasic?
19:07:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't figure out how you can do sane blitting of sprites and such in mode x
19:07:18 <zzo38> alise__: Yes it is compiled
19:07:27 <ais523> wow, and it seems to have hit mainstream UK newspapers
19:07:33 <alise__> also gosub instead of sub/call, oldschool man :P
19:07:34 <zzo38> Yes, with QuickBasic Extended
19:08:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus page flip, would that be changing some of the planes to some other ones or what?
19:08:13 <zzo38> In my programs, I use both GOSUB and SUB for different purposes, also depending on the program. SOLITAIRE CARD uses both (but SUB and FUNCTION mostly)
19:08:42 <alise__> zzo38: i'm going to try webplot though i've not read the docs
19:08:48 <alise__> i assume xmin=xmax will not help..
19:09:43 <zzo38> You can put a filename on the command line to load it (it will also save to that file once you quit)
19:09:51 <zzo38> Push TAB to switch between graph and editing
19:09:51 <alise__> is REFERENCE just a note field?
19:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: try a Google search for "Apple Adobe"; I'm reading many of the top results, and they're pretty interesting
19:10:19 <zzo38> No. REFERENCE is the function for the red line, but in terms of x=f(y) instead of y=f(x). CURRENT is the cyan line in terms of y=f(x).
19:10:26 <ais523> especially as there's a whole set of different biases there
19:10:38 <ais523> (yes, I'm the sort of person who doesn't suggest a search without first trying it myself and reading several of the reuslts)
19:10:46 <alise__> zzo38: now make it solve equations and do derivatives and you're set for life
19:11:13 <zzo38> alise__: I suppose I could add that some time, maybe (or maybe not), but not necessarily right now
19:11:21 <alise__> well i meant as separate programs
19:11:30 <alise__> although without variables, would be hard-pressed to do solving/derivatives
19:11:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you want insane blitting, just change the plane-writing mask for each pixel of the sprite. If you want to change it less often, divide the sprite data to four planes like that and write it in four stages. And page-flipping means just what it normally does; you have two pages (four planes in each) worth of data in the video memory, and you can change which one is visible.
19:12:15 <zzo38> WEBPLOT does have three "manipulator variables" which range from -1..1 when on the graph screen you push A or B or C to select one and then use the arrow keys to manipulate its value.
19:12:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I only used page flipping with some nice high level API between me and the hardware. SDL iirc.
19:12:59 <zzo38> Try loading LOGISTIC.WPL and then, after pushing TAB, push A or B or C and manipulate the values to see an example of how it works. (This file is a logistic map example)
19:13:06 <alise__> apparently structured if statements is an advanced feature not supported by qbasic
19:13:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for storing it plane by plane, it seems rather messy if the sprite moves 1 pixel left or right. As far as I can figure out that would mean the first plane would be a different one
19:13:54 <zzo38> Structured IF statements are supported by QBASIC, but not as well as some other programming languages.
19:14:35 <alise__> zzo38: if you actually did write an equation solver / symbolic differentiator in BASIC I'd be in awe
19:14:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, you don't always copy sprite plane 0 to video-plane 0, but why would that be a problem? There's a bit more work to compute where you need to start, though.
19:15:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes and rotating sprites stored that way would be very painful
19:15:11 <zzo38> Differentiation is not so difficult when you write it in expanded polynomial form.
19:15:22 <alise__> zzo38: differentiation is pretty easy; it's just rewriting expressions
19:15:31 <alise__> but you need a tree style (+; a; b) nested structure for that -- hard in basic --
19:15:36 <alise__> you need to parse the expression -- hard in basic --
19:15:42 <alise__> then you need to turn it into something you can evaluate elsewhere --
19:16:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, in that case you can keep it in memory as packed-pixel, and just write first every fourth pixel to plane 0, then the ones after those to plane 1, and so on.
19:16:12 <zzo38> Yes, I know BASIC is not meant for those things very well. That is why other programming languages exists, too.
19:16:54 <zzo38> However, I have written a program to calculate polynomials in VBA (Excel). It should be easy to make that to differentiation.
19:16:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be slower? Or weren't systems able to read/write more than 8 bits at a time back then anyway?
19:17:53 <AnMaster> (presumably they could do 16-bit or maybe 32-bit mov even back then)
19:17:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: If I recall correctly (I might not), for hardwarely reasons you can't move data more than a byte at a time from the CPU to the video memory, even though it might provide an illusion of wider writes.
19:18:05 <alise__> zzo38: then all you have to do is tie those three things together as functions, add basic variables, and give it some syntax
19:18:15 <alise__> and you've got yourself the world's first and last BASIC computer algebra system
19:18:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would have been back then, today I'm 100% certain you can, since video memory is normally WC (write combine)
19:18:48 <zzo38> alise__: It is VBA however, not QBASIC.
19:18:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Anyhow, for blitting you can also put stuff into the video memory. There's some hardware help for moving data between different regions of video memory. At the least, it allows you to do real 32-bit read/writes via a VGA "data latch" register.
19:19:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, today you'll use the GPU hardware for everything, even physics.
19:19:16 <alise__> zzo38: Close enough, just rewrite it :P Also, it could be any BASIC-y BASIC, not just Q.
19:19:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And buses are wider anyway.
19:19:46 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/Ploynomial_Functions.bas
19:19:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: With a VGA card in the ISA bus, I'm pretty sure it's one-byte writes all the way.
19:19:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, "latch" from how it was implemented in hardware presumably?
19:20:10 <zzo38> (It only works for single-variables polynomials, however)
19:20:19 <zzo38> Sorry, it should be s/Ploy/Poly/
19:20:21 <alise__> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/Polynomial_Functions.bas clearly yes :P
19:21:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, which seems rather low level description of it.. (Also, why a latch instead of a flip-flop. I thought async circuits was rather messier to use?)
19:22:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's just what people call it; it might not necessarily correspond to the hardware implementation, just the "semantics" of it.
19:23:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: In any case, if you're really interested, go read chapters 47, 48 and 49 at http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1698.asp
19:23:22 <fizzie> ais523: You might also be interested in the link I just pasted to AnMaster; it's even more VGA stuffery.
19:23:44 <fizzie> (They're a pile of PDFs, unfortunately.)
19:24:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is quite a bit more than just VGA stuff is it? Some stuff looks a bit more modern.
19:24:59 <fizzie> Yes, it's a collection of articles from a rather long period of time.
19:25:35 <fizzie> Yes, well, that's what you get for free. They're perfectly readable anyway.
19:25:37 <AnMaster> I always found such excessively hard to read
19:25:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, only by straining your eyes
19:26:00 <AnMaster> at least number 66, which was the one I looked at first
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19:26:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite imaginative names...
19:27:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't seem to have any problems reading that in Evince. It even lets me copy-paste text out of it (curiously), so you can get a quick-and-dirty text-only copy by pasting into 'fmt' or something.
19:27:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, that looks like OCRed text below the scan
19:28:09 <AnMaster> there are quite a few OCR-ish errors in it
19:28:26 <fizzie> Yes, and not everything seems to be selectable; if there's graphics, for example.
19:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Does anyone know about graphics hardware and its requisite software?
19:29:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, rather curious that there is OCR hidden below the scan, or perhaps evince has built in OCR?
19:29:13 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article846-page1.html
19:29:14 <AnMaster> which would be even more curious
19:29:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I'm wondering. "pdftotext" doesn't print out anything. Maybe evince does in fact do it by itself.
19:29:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, try some other reader, I have okular on my laptop
19:30:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Evince adds OCR support", a Digg post from 2008.
19:30:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: Funny that I hadn't noticed until now.
19:30:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, also doesn't OCR generally needs training?
19:31:17 <fizzie> Well, it would *help*, but you can get reasonable output for reasonable source material without.
19:31:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, strangely enough it is more readable in okular...
19:31:40 <AnMaster> oh wait, higher DPI on that monitor
19:31:51 <AnMaster> presumably evince would be nice better on there too
19:31:53 <fizzie> "Evince allows the selection of text in PDF files and allows users to highlight and copy text from documents made from scanned images, if the PDF includes OCR data", says Wikipedia's Evince article. I have no idea what "PDF includes OCR data" means there.
19:32:21 <AnMaster> no. evince is not as readable as okular there
19:32:48 <fizzie> Ah, okay. It seems that there's some sort of pre-done OCR metadata block in the PDF, and evince's just showing it, in fact.
19:32:49 <AnMaster> hm, okular seems to anti-alias when you are zoomed != 100 %
19:33:02 <fizzie> pdftotext just isn't clever enough to read it.
19:33:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
19:38:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:38:49 <alise__> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madore.org%2F~david%2Flit%2Felfe.html&sl=auto&tl=en <== From the person who brought you Unlambda! (You might not want to click this.)
19:39:47 * oerjan thinks he noticed some gay literature on madore's site before, is that it?
19:39:49 <Sgeo> "Warning: The following contains explicit descriptions of sexual acts between consenting adult males, if such a description is likely to shock you, or if you are underage, you are invited to stop by your reading ."
19:40:21 <alise__> Amusingly, if you don't know French, every sentence of the untranslated version sounds elegant and innocent.
19:40:25 <alise__> That's just the power of French.
19:41:11 <zzo38> If you use the Adobe reader and you print a encrypted PDF to a non-encrypted PDF, this does *not* allow you do copy the text!! (You will get a graphical-only PDF if you do this.)
19:42:02 <Sgeo> How TF does "encrypted PDF" make sense? Does only the official PDF viewer have the private key or something?
19:42:28 <alise__> It's just a flag, protected.
19:42:33 <alise__> You're "meant" to respect it.
19:42:41 <alise__> Like a certain TCP flag...
19:43:00 <alise__> It's against the PDF licensespecthingetc to not respect it and disallow copying, iirc.
19:43:11 <alise__> So xpdf follows the rules but one define away and it's freed up.
19:43:24 <Sgeo> What TCP flag acts like that?
19:43:36 <Sgeo> Oh, the joke "EVIL" flag?
19:43:55 * Sgeo thought you meant a serious flag, for some reason
19:44:36 <zzo38> It can be changed using defines (which I think is a good way to do things like this (even UOPs on DVDs)), but I would generally prefer this to be a command-line parameter instead
19:44:55 <fizzie> Re "encrypted PDF and printing to image"; gaa, it's the dreaded analog hole again!
19:45:15 <fizzie> (Even if it's a digital image.)
19:45:25 <alise__> They're trying to plug it.
19:45:32 <alise__> zzo38: I'd prefer just not writing any such code in the first place!
19:45:52 <alise__> Fuck the licensing and the specs if they demand such things; let them come to me directly and say "please obey this meaningless bit in the header", and I'll be happy to reply "no".
19:46:13 <fizzie> For xpdf, I think there was at least one distribution that patched it to in fact make a command-line parameter of it.
19:46:15 <zzo38> But such things are part of the specification, I think the user should be allowed to tell the program whether or not to obey those settings by using a command-line parameter.
19:46:40 <Sgeo> Why is this reminding me of GOd
19:47:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know why
19:47:22 <fizzie> The Debian/Ubuntu patch I guess just #ifdef's those bits around ENFORCE_PERMISSIONS, and doesn't define that symbol.
19:47:27 <alise__> zzo38: If you want to respect the protection, do how it's always been done: don't violate the damn copyright.
19:47:47 <alise__> If you don't care about such nonsenses as owning bits, copy as much as you like.
19:49:13 <zzo38> alise__: I absolutely agree with that, if you want to respect copyright, do it the old fashioned manual way. However, in cases like PDF and DVD, these are part of the specification. So, the program should do that or not depending on the command-line parameter (or configuration file).
19:49:17 <Sgeo> Dear downloads: Please download
19:49:28 <alise__> zzo38: A lot of parts of specifications are completely stupid, though.
19:49:50 <alise__> Like, say the C standard has a part in it that, while well-intentioned, completely reverses the meaning of most of the language.
19:49:51 <zzo38> alise__: I do agree with that. Many things are stupid. And that's not the only stupid part of the PDF specification!
19:49:55 <alise__> You'd obviously not implement it.
19:50:08 <alise__> Now, the PDF standard has a part in it that, while bad-intentioned, completely reverses sanity. :-)
19:50:40 <alise__> Mumble mumble the postscript subset is alright but then they made it shit mumble mumble
19:51:14 <fizzie> It's a bit strange that Ubuntu xpdf patches include fixes for five CVE-series vulnerabilities from 2007; shouldn't those have appeared at upstream by now? Of course I haven't looked at these in detail, so maybe it's a some sort of a non-issue.
19:51:33 <alise__> Incidentally, xpdf has the most hideous interface in a long time.
19:51:53 <fizzie> Yes, I sort of accidentally started to use Evince instead on this new Ubuntu installation.
19:52:14 <Sgeo> Does Evince respect the unenforcable bit?
19:52:27 <zzo38> Perhaps, but these things are needed to conform with the standards, even if it is very stupid (which is certainly is, which is why I suggest a command-line option to change it). Even for things like C standard, it should be implemented as long as it does not conflict with the rest of the specification (but you can have options such as #pragma and so on to correct it)
19:52:32 <fizzie> I don't have a protected PDF to check with right now.
19:52:45 <zzo38> What is the unenforcable bit?
19:53:15 <alise__> hmm... let's golf a program that flips the don't-copy bit to show just how ridiculous it is :-)
19:53:17 <zzo38> Do you mean don't copy the PDF file as a whole?
19:53:28 <alise__> If we can get it small enough, we can argue that interpreting it as a bit-flipper is utterly arbitrary
19:53:33 <alise__> as there are far too many meanings for such a short string
19:53:37 <alise__> thus it's perfectly legal Q.E.D. :P
19:53:58 <alise__> yes, yes, Colour of your Bits etc., but does that really apply if your bits are (*494#$1*(7
19:54:59 * Sgeo loves the Worms theme music
19:56:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm... Could you write (realistically) functions f and g such that f(n) gives a valid BF program for all naturals, and g(<valid BF program>) gives a number that you can reconstruct n with it? Preferably in a sensible amount of time/
19:57:35 <alise__> Consider a BF program as a base-8 number; one for each commands.
19:57:44 <alise__> This base-8 number is a natural.
19:57:57 <Gregor> Well, that's not quite QED, but the rest is horribly obvious :P
19:58:14 <alise__> Gregor: Well, you know how much real-world mathematicians leave out of their proofs...
19:58:31 <zzo38> You need balanced []
19:58:31 <alise__> Valid as in matching brackets?
19:58:44 <alise__> Fine; translate it to that language that uses GOTOs instead.
19:58:49 <alise__> Do the same process to that.
19:59:00 <alise__> Or do something ridiculous, like:
19:59:00 <Gregor> alise__: I don't think the translation from BF to that language is 1-1
19:59:37 <alise__> you could figure it out anyway
19:59:44 <Gregor> By definition there is such a translation :P
20:00:18 <alise__> it exists because obviously you can do it because it's a data structure and you can goedel-numerise them
20:00:24 <alise__> just generate all valid bf programs
20:00:58 <alise__> map a BF program P to its index n in the list.
20:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I thought of that, but I quickly dismissed it as utterly impractical.
20:01:10 <alise__> admittedly this isn't countably infinite so that's a .. problem
20:01:12 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ZeroBF
20:01:21 <alise__> but, anyway, it exists and it's trivial so stop thinking about it.
20:02:01 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but ideally I would like to fashion these into a usable program.
20:02:25 <fizzie> The Ubuntu version of Evince I have here seems to lose PDF security properties somewhere. "pdfinfo" says "Encrypted: yes (print:yes copy:no change:no addNotes:no)", but Evince says "Security: No", and lets me copy whatever I want.
20:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on Safalra's method for calculating the number of bits needed to store a Brainfuck program of length n.
20:03:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's also trivial to just go with a function that considers the number a base-8 encoding of Brainfuck *and* is undefined for invalid Brainfuck programs. :P
20:03:34 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ok how about this
20:03:47 <alise__> where ins is the array of instructions
20:03:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait. "All naturals".
20:03:56 <pikhq> Darn it, that makes it a pain.
20:03:58 <alise__> we do a loop by saying 2+n for all n in it
20:04:19 <pikhq> Quite easy for a countably infinite subset of the naturals.
20:04:31 <alise__> this is in base infinity o_O
20:04:38 <alise__> it's just a set of naturals
20:04:46 <alise__> which is isomorphic to a natural
20:05:47 <alise__> Also, I'm designing my own perfect document authoring system; am I a madman for trying to displace Knuth's righteous place?
20:05:58 <pikhq> alise__: Probably.
20:06:38 <pikhq> At the very least, though, you must be sure to do everything right that TeX does right.
20:06:44 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ok, let's say
20:06:53 <alise__> we correspond each to its number
20:07:01 <alise__> and there's your program, right?
20:07:02 <pikhq> (you are damned well rendering the text beautifully.)
20:07:11 <alise__> we figure out the program-list for ...
20:07:15 <alise__> then we increase all elements in it by 8
20:07:30 <alise__> this way, if we know it's >7, it's in a loop
20:07:52 <alise__> then we've flattened it into a flat set of naturals
20:08:02 <alise__> we have a correspondence N^n -> N for all n
20:08:18 <alise__> so substitute the length of the list for n (try recursive application of an N^2 -> N perhaps)
20:08:57 <alise__> pikhq: Actually, that's why I'm calling it a document-authoring system: It's more general than TeX.
20:09:15 <alise__> You write in terms of more semantic -- but not fully semantic -- commands, then renderers and style files turn this into something you actually look at.
20:09:28 <alise__> (Though actual custom formatting won't be frowned upon where needed. We're not nazis like the TeXmacs guys.)
20:10:21 <alise__> A title block would probably look like this:
20:10:22 <alise__> \_title := { Hello, world! }
20:10:23 <alise__> \_author := { Elliott Hird }
20:10:25 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ,[.,] would be
20:11:05 <alise__> 5 is our biggest number, so we want to add 6 to each one
20:11:39 <pikhq> alise__: So, actually trying to improve on TeX's design. :)
20:12:09 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: lern u sum mathematics, please.
20:12:14 <alise__> N^n -- n-length tuple of naturals
20:12:25 <alise__> we have a mapping from two naturals to one natural
20:12:34 <alise__> so we have a mapping from n naturals to one natural, Q.E.D.
20:12:55 <alise__> pikhq: Then style files would include things like
20:13:16 <alise__> \section := { \margin[-.5em] \size[1.5em] \bold }
20:13:27 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's pretty simple stuff...
20:14:06 <alise__> Nothing of importance is covered in school.
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20:20:02 <zzo38> How do you make a picture of Oscar Wilde in 16 colors with less than 32x32?
20:22:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:24:27 <fizzie> Make a black box, and declare black boxes to be representative of Oscar Wilde.
20:26:19 <zzo38> OK but that isn't even close to what is intended. The background color is 7 (gray). Also, QBASIC vector drawings of the baker, the spider, the king, each with background color 0 and the size not larger than approx. 210x240 each
20:26:19 <fizzie> Incidentally, how many pixels do you need before something constitutes a "picture", and is therefore equivalent to (more than) a thousand words of text?
20:26:30 * Sgeo just discovered /r/saddestof
20:26:36 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to be sick
20:26:40 <zzo38> fizzie: OK, ah. That's the "picture"?
20:27:01 <fizzie> Well, a picture's worth a thousand words, or so they say.
20:27:05 <zzo38> They say a picture is worth a thousand words but clearly it depends on the picture and on the words
20:29:07 <zzo38> I know how to make suits using QBASIC vector drawing (including some additional suits, to make 9 suits in total), but I'm not that good at drawing in general, however
20:32:38 <fizzie> Generally, even for restricted-resolution restricted-color stuff, I've usually just scaled images with graphics tools. With quite horrible results. The rfk86 font is the only exception I can think of where I did manual pixel-pushing.
20:32:48 <fizzie> Pixel-graphics artistry is a legitimate field, though.
20:33:09 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/38X0q6NF See line 982 and line 1496
20:33:58 <zzo38> (Although line 982 could be changed to pixels stored in DATA statements instead, since it is small enough)
20:35:11 <alise__> zzo38, I respect you. you're crazy
20:35:53 <fizzie> Well. uh... if you want something *completely* horrible, open an existing photograph in Inkscape or some-such, use the vectorization tools, then do path-simplify a few dozen times, then convert all those beziers into regular lines and convert that into the qbasic draw syntax. You'll end up with something that resembles a modernist art piece, and it's a safe bet no-one will recognize the person in it.
20:36:06 <alise__> I wonder whether := really deserves to be a primitive, rather than just a command.
20:37:09 <zzo38> fizzie: But I don't want something completely horrible
20:37:27 <alise__> Wilde is not exactly easy to portray in tiny.
20:37:35 <fizzie> I can't help you there, then, I'm afraid. I only do horrible.
20:37:54 <zzo38> Are you good to draw anything such as baker, spider, king, in 210x240 approx size?
20:38:34 <zzo38> alise__: If Oscar Wilde won't fit perhaps I can put something else on that card, that will fit.
20:39:04 <alise__> I'm sure you can do Wilde.
20:39:16 <alise__> Face, long hair, maybe a tiny hand-segment on chin; done.
20:39:27 <zzo38> OK, but I'm not so good at drawing like that.
20:40:48 <alise__> Nor I, I'm afraid -- but I can picture what it'd look like in my head...
20:41:10 <zzo38> Ah. OK. Who can do?
20:41:26 <alise__> pikhq: Huh. I think my architecture means that it could be used to... directly synthesize well-typesetted mathematics into plain HTML and CSS.
20:42:16 <alise__> pikhq: Because things like basic positioning, layout commands etc. would be output-agnostic (obviously, or it'd be very unportable).
20:42:33 <alise__> Of course, the output HTML would be large and crazy and anyone who's ever written a semantic web page or, uh, been blind would maul me...
20:42:35 <AnMaster> <zzo38> But such things are part of the specification, I think the user should be allowed to tell the program whether or not to obey those settings by using a command-line parameter. <- kpdf (for KDE 3.5.x at least) had a an option in the preference dialog for it. IIRC okular (KDE 4.x) has that too
20:42:54 <AnMaster> evince I don't know, after all it has no settings dialog at all it seems
20:43:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: My copy forgets the security settings somewhere, possibly already in libpoppler.
20:43:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: I have no idea how it is with the official sources.
20:44:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't have any such pdf to test with
20:44:43 <AnMaster> but I have both ubuntu and arch linux handy
20:44:51 <AnMaster> the latter tends to avoid non-upstream patches
20:45:01 <AnMaster> while ubuntu tends to be rather heavy on that
20:45:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: According to pdfinfo, http://www.adobe.com/products/pdfjobready/pdfs/pdftraag.pdf has some security settings: (print:yes copy:no change:no addNotes:no). I could copy-paste text out of it, at least, which I think should be disallowed by "copy:no".
20:46:10 <AnMaster> btw, isn't dragging tabs supposed to work in firefox to rearrange them?
20:46:20 <fizzie> I don't think I have handy anything that *does* respect those things so that I could make sure the document actually has them.
20:46:21 <AnMaster> for some reason I it suddenly doesn't work
20:47:13 <zzo38> AnMaster: Those are the kind of things I was suggesting. For programs without configuration dialog boxes, they could be stored in configuration files and/or command-line parameters. (MegaZeux uses config file, which can be overridden by command-line parameters, it also has a configuration dialog but the dialog box is only for the current session, if you want it permanent you need to use the config file)
20:47:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, copy works with evince under arch linux at least
20:47:27 <fizzie> But I don't have stock xpdf, just the Ubuntu-patched "evil xpdf" (tm).
20:47:40 <AnMaster> I don't have xpdf at all handy
20:48:00 <AnMaster> well it is in arch, but too lazy to install that
20:48:02 <alise__> { \size[2.5em] \bold \title } \break
20:48:02 <alise__> { \italic \author, \date } \break
20:48:03 <alise__> (from some imaginary doc style)
20:48:36 <fizzie> There's a real Adobe Reader on the OS X, though; I had an occasion I needed to show some slides that were horrible with Preview.app, and I have no idea what would be a sensible tool for PDF-based slides on OS X.
20:49:10 <alise__> Preview is my favourite PDF reader by far.
20:49:14 <alise__> It just handles everything. Perfectly.
20:49:30 <zzo38> At my school we just printed out the PDF slides and viewed them on the wall using the projector
20:49:37 <fizzie> It didn't handle sensible antialiasing-filtering for fullscreen viewing of the raster images in those particular slides.
20:49:56 <alise__> Anyway, Preview does that too. Also perfectly.
20:50:02 <alise__> Probably the best bit of OS X, actually...
20:50:29 <pineapple> alise__: ey's a linux user? i don't know of a linux pdf viewer that can display in a firefox tab
20:51:00 <alise__> pineapple: you can do it with mozplugin - but it's Ugly with a capital Y
20:51:05 <alise__> I think adobe reader does it natively
20:51:10 <alise__> I use Linux, yes, though I'm not particularly enamoured with it.
20:51:23 <pineapple> adobe reader does on windows at least
20:51:38 <alise__> If Apple hadn't done the poopy things they've done recently I'd probably go OS X.
20:52:15 <alise__> The whole iPhone SDK license debacle.
20:52:19 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I miss built-in browser PDFs. <-- konqueror does it
20:52:26 <alise__> And the "assembling a patent portfolio to go after Theora" one.
20:52:31 <alise__> Both signs of impending Dark Lordism.
20:52:37 <alise__> The latter a sign of pure malice.
20:52:53 <fizzie> alise__: What I mind with Preview and Firefox is that if I click a PDF link, it opens in a separate Preview window (which I don't mind) but it also drops (like, a turd) the PDF file directly on the desktop, which annoys me to no end; I more often just want to take a peek, not save something. I'm sure this is configurable somehow, though.
20:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> And the fact that their users are one of the most smug sets of people in the world.
20:52:59 <Sgeo> What's this about Apple and Theora?
20:53:15 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: I know, I know; but there's always public perceptions, you know, and I just tried to do what I can to fight that.
20:53:22 <alise__> It /was/ irritating getting mocked merely for using an OS.
20:53:28 <Gregor> Apple: "Theora probably violates patents, and we're going to sue because we're douchetards."
20:53:29 <alise__> It's fucking Unix, man. It's actually certified Unix.
20:53:45 <pineapple> alise__: it's *nix that hides its routes
20:53:57 <alise__> pineapple: *roots; and not really. And hey I like Terminal.
20:54:21 <alise__> I don't really want to use a non-OS X operating system right now; but I don't think I can support Apple at all right now.
20:54:22 <Gregor> But does it hide its routes, too? :P
20:54:35 <alise__> Which puts me in a horrible position, because Ubuntu - well, it's lovely but it sucks.
20:54:41 <Sgeo> OS 7 is non OS X
20:54:53 <alise__> pineapple: I've tried many
20:55:04 <alise__> Debian - just like Ubuntu, but with less polish!
20:55:09 <alise__> (Although less poopiness too)
20:55:16 <alise__> Arch - Just like Gentoo, except slower!
20:55:20 <Gregor> Try Debian - just like Ubuntu, but with less douchebaggery (also, more douchebaggery)
20:55:25 <alise__> Gentoo - Just like a life, except not! At all!
20:55:42 <pineapple> alise__: you could always try a BSD
20:55:48 <AnMaster> <Gregor> But does it hide its routes, too? :P <-- does the route(8) command exist?
20:55:56 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: It's just sort of shit in all these tiny ways.
20:56:14 <alise__> Typography is still abhorrent. Interface still doesn't feel polished. Things crash and sometimes you're not sure why. Things are inconsistent and sometimes you're not sure why.
20:56:26 <coppro> yeah, Ubuntu definitely has some rough edges
20:56:29 <Gregor> My problems with all distros are solely philosophy-based.
20:56:33 <alise__> Everything just seems like it's built out of cardboard; OS X, for all its failings, at least feels like those failings are part of a solid steel structure.
20:56:38 <pineapple> i do like that ubuntu doesn't hide the command line from you, though
20:57:01 <alise__> Both have the terminal in clear sight, but never tell you to use it. Ever.
20:57:13 * Gregor huggles his sidux and avoids distro wars X-P
20:57:17 <pineapple> the general support from #ubuntu involves "type this command in"
20:57:18 <coppro> OS X' terminal is in plain sight now?
20:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> There being two ways to do something doesn't make it bad.
20:57:38 <Sgeo> alise__, put Android on your computer?
20:57:43 <coppro> last I recall I invariably had to dig it out manually
20:57:45 * Sgeo wonders how horribly that would work
20:57:46 <alise__> coppro: /Applications/Utilities
20:57:52 <alise__> Which is where tons of utility programs are.
20:57:56 <zzo38> That is why I should write my own distribution instead
20:58:04 <alise__> Like, you know, the Activity Monitor; or the full-featured screen grabber; or the network utility; or...
20:58:06 <alise__> It's not "dragging it out".
20:58:12 <alise__> It's going to where the applications are, and going under utilities.
20:58:22 <alise__> Ubuntu: Applications -> Accessories.
20:58:37 <alise__> OS X just uses a Dock which means spaces on it are more precious than Ubuntu's larger menu.
20:58:46 <alise__> And obviously not many people actually use the Terminal, on OS X /or/ Ubuntu.
20:58:55 <alise__> You double click them, and they open in the Terminal.
20:59:07 <alise__> Of course command-line programs open in the terminal.
20:59:09 <pineapple> alise__: invariably, though, i would only use that menu exactly once for a terminal emulator... to create a shortcut to it in a faster to access place
20:59:21 <zzo38> pineapple: Yes, based from Linux From Scratch, but then I can make a few differences (maybe a lot of differences) and call that a Linux distribution
20:59:31 <alise__> Well clearly you're insane as they very much do.
20:59:44 <alise__> And in any way it's a completely insane complaint as almost all raw binaries on OS X are command-line utilities.
20:59:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Phantom_Hoover).
20:59:51 <pikhq> zzo38: Yup. That's the raison d'etre of LFS.
21:00:05 <alise__> LFS is for dummies real men make their own guide from scratch.
21:00:08 <pineapple> you know... as much as people here slag off ubuntu, i don't think that i would've gotten into linux as much as i have done were it to not have existed
21:00:21 <alise__> i'm not saying other distros are better
21:00:29 <pikhq> alise__: Command-line utilities or X11 stuff. And you're probably crazy for using an X11 program.
21:00:41 <alise__> it's just that... like, if windows had decent programming POSIX base underneath
21:00:52 <alise__> I wouldn't see any particular reason to rate Ubuntu more than, say, 3 points higher than Windows
21:01:02 <alise__> pineapple: no, I probably wouldn't
21:01:09 <alise__> but that's what I'm saying, Ubuntu isn't astounding and it really needs to be
21:01:20 <alise__> because all the little improvements just aren't helping, it really needs a solid foundation
21:01:26 <pineapple> not even 10.04? (i've not tried it yet)
21:01:43 <alise__> pineapple: I haven't either, but the new looks and stupid social IM stuff?
21:01:53 <alise__> New bootup thing, sure, who cares...
21:01:57 <zzo38> I use Ubuntu at Free Geek, because that is what computers they have there. I use the command-line stuff mostly. But there are some things I don't like about Ubuntu but that's OK because I can write my own later, as well
21:02:04 <alise__> The new look is more polished but still rough at t he edges.
21:02:17 <alise__> They really do need to sort Linux typography the fuck out though.
21:02:33 <alise__> You're already blatantly violating Apple's patent, so violate it as well as they do.
21:02:34 <pikhq> Yeah, it's quite annoying when it fails.
21:02:38 <AnMaster> <pineapple> you know... as much as people here slag off ubuntu, i don't think that i would've gotten into linux as much as i have done were it to not have existed <-- ah, back when I began ubuntu didn't exist. It was mostly red hat and slackware back then, and debian I guess too.
21:02:42 <pikhq> Because when it fails it fails *hard*.
21:02:53 <pikhq> alise__: Ubuntu licenses the patent, IIRC.
21:03:15 <alise__> Isn't it ELER canon that Shuttleworth's penis ejaculates money?
21:03:23 <pikhq> I, personally, just blatantly violate the patent.
21:03:27 <alise__> Speaking of which, I bet there hasn't been an update. Crazy odds, I know.
21:03:34 <alise__> Let's see, I'm in so much anticipation
21:03:39 <alise__> OH MY GOD THEY DIDN'T UPDATE I WAS RIGHT
21:03:44 <pikhq> (mmm, Gentoo lets you blatantly violate the patent if you take on all responsibility for doing such...)
21:03:47 <zzo38> If it were my job there would be no patents, I would make the law so that there is no such things as patents
21:04:23 <AnMaster> <pikhq> (mmm, Gentoo lets you blatantly violate the patent if you take on all responsibility for doing such...) <-- yes and official mozilla branding is also an option, :D
21:04:41 <zzo38> Therefore, I would make the "patents and trademarks office" to be changed to the "trademarks office"
21:04:47 <alise__> yeah so you can fap to the amazing firefox
21:04:49 <zzo38> Trademarks are good thing.
21:04:50 <AnMaster> iirc it showed a message like "beware, you may not redistribute this binary" or such
21:04:55 <alise__> that's totally the main good thing about gentoo :D :D :D
21:04:56 <AnMaster> when you turned on official branding
21:05:12 <coppro> which patent is this again?
21:05:19 <AnMaster> well hidden if you didn't read it
21:05:26 <alise__> coppro: Apple's patent on some sort of another subpixel rendering thing
21:05:41 <alise__> Even though Ubuntu enables the patent-infringing operation (apparently under license), the result still looks like shit.
21:05:47 <alise__> Of course, it's even worse without.
21:05:59 <coppro> I use KDE and it generally looks good
21:06:18 <AnMaster> coppro, I miss the days of KDE 3 a lot
21:06:19 <coppro> 4; the Kubuntu release
21:06:20 <alise__> coppro: You're blessed with a very-high-dpi laptop screen.
21:06:23 <alise__> Those tend to smooth out anything.
21:06:31 <alise__> Also, ignore AnMaster; he hates KDE 4 and <3s KDE 3.
21:06:44 <pikhq> What really gets me is how much of a pain it is just to get decent fonts.
21:07:00 <alise__> No-subpixel + slight hinting looks alright... I guess... but the cruel thing is how much better OS X is
21:07:13 <alise__> I mean, OS X typography approaches the quality of print
21:07:15 <fizzie> Re patents, and since the theme of phones and their OSes is a topic sometimes here too; Microsoft's currently saying that Android infringes on their patents, and has so far managed to extract protection money, uh, sorry, I mean license royalties from at least HTC.
21:07:20 <alise__> given a high enough dpi display...
21:07:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, agreed. At least on arch and on ubuntu the fonts tend to render very well, assuming you do not use subpixel stuff
21:07:25 <pikhq> I've just *barely* gotten good fonts of English and Japanese. A single bit of Chinese that isn't in the Japanese font, and it looks *awful*.
21:07:44 <AnMaster> oh and apple fonts tend to look like shit on linux, no idea why
21:07:45 <alise__> I like how they're all unantialiased.
21:07:54 <alise__> In 2010 (ok, 2009 when this version was released)
21:08:01 <alise__> Thanks for shipping that, Apple.
21:08:02 <alise__> AnMaster: because you use them at full hinting
21:08:12 <alise__> because os x fonts don't have hinting info
21:08:15 <alise__> and weren't designed to be hinted
21:08:23 <alise__> pineapple: yes but 4.whateveritis is better than 3 by far
21:08:37 <coppro> 4.whateveritis is very awesome
21:08:39 <pikhq> 3 was 2 ported to Qt 3.
21:08:50 <Sgeo> My computer thinks it's not plugged in
21:08:55 <zzo38> How do you make a protest to protest against having patents, so that you can abolish patent law, in Canada?
21:08:58 <AnMaster> pineapple, KDE 4.1 wasn't very good either, it is finally becomming somewhat okayish with KDE 4.3, but I have gone gnome by now
21:09:05 <alise__> zzo38: I don't think that would help.
21:09:23 <alise__> Looks like we'll get to hear AnMaster's GNOME complaints in the near future!
21:09:23 <coppro> patent law will not get abolished
21:09:28 <AnMaster> at least with the clearlooks theme it is okay
21:09:34 <pineapple> AnMaster: i went with xfce for my arch install; not sure what i'll do when i finally try LFS
21:09:44 <AnMaster> oh and they messed up the icons, so I'm using an older gnome icon theme version nowdays
21:09:52 <AnMaster> because the new theme is just ugly as hell
21:10:03 <AnMaster> unless you use a dark theme overall
21:10:06 <Sgeo> Seriously, WTF is going ojn
21:10:21 <AnMaster> while my theme use very light colours
21:10:41 <alise__> Sgeo: THE WORLD IS COLLAPSING AROUND YOU
21:10:46 <alise__> coppro: it should be though
21:10:56 <alise__> ...of course actually doing it would be very very complex
21:11:00 <alise__> with all the reorganisation and loose ends etc
21:11:05 <coppro> that's not the main reason
21:11:05 <alise__> but the aftermath, at least, is a good thing...
21:11:15 <coppro> the main reason is because it wouldn't get past the lobby
21:11:27 <AnMaster> pineapple, LFS is for learning, not for actual use. No package manager (well you can use some semi-working one yourself if you want)
21:11:39 <AnMaster> but you won't get notified about new versions and such
21:11:42 <fizzie> Sgeo: Pure curiosity, but how did it go with your phone acquisitions? I've been sort of following it with one eye.
21:11:47 <coppro> also, I would not support outright abolishing it without replacing it with something else
21:11:49 <AnMaster> so yes, LFS is great, for learning. Done it myself.
21:11:52 <alise__> fizzie: he doesn't like the nexus all that much
21:11:54 <AnMaster> but wouldn't use it for day-to-day use
21:11:56 <pineapple> AnMaster: i'm cool with that... i _want_ the learning experience
21:12:09 <alise__> I'll save it for the Democratic Republic of alise (neither democratic, nor a republic).
21:12:12 <AnMaster> pineapple, it is not a system you wish to maintain after the install is done
21:12:24 <pineapple> and it's not going to be on my main machine (i have arch on that one and like it so far)
21:13:10 <coppro> alise__: that would cause innovation to stagnate
21:13:14 <alise__> I figured a while ago that I hate all existing OSs, and so any major tinkering I do should be directed at creating a new OS; for now, I'll just use whatever works with most stuff out of the box and gives me the least hassle.
21:13:23 <alise__> coppro: I disagree and we've talked about this before and not got anywhere.
21:13:41 <alise__> So let's wait until we're older and therefore hopefully wiser and can get past whatever dead-ends in argumentation we hit before getting into another loop, eh?
21:13:43 <coppro> alise__: The issue in this case would just be perception though
21:13:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: LFS is actually quite usable for day-to-day use *if* you work at it.
21:13:55 <alise__> See, you're already starting to argue.
21:13:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean, if you are an LFS maintainer? ;P
21:14:00 <pikhq> By doing things like "having a package manager".
21:14:04 <alise__> About the nature of the disagreement.
21:14:13 <coppro> also I'm procrastinating
21:14:17 <pikhq> And "maintaining it".
21:14:17 <Sgeo> I don't think I'm going to return it
21:14:27 <Sgeo> MAYBE I'll sell it on eBay when the Evo comes out, or something
21:14:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure, but no one will make available packages with security updates for you, it is up to you to read CVEs and such
21:14:34 <AnMaster> and find what patches to apply
21:14:42 <Sgeo> Also, battery going to die, and laptop doesn't want to think it's plugged in
21:14:45 <pikhq> Basically, you become a distro manager.
21:14:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, you need a lot of free time for LFS
21:14:54 <pikhq> Which is what you should expect when you make a distro.
21:15:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is only one problem I can see with the N900, and that is it's size. It seems way better than android when it comes to the Linuxishness
21:15:11 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:15:23 <fizzie> Sgeo: You must increase the voltage. Of something.
21:15:30 <pikhq> LFS is at its most usable when you use it to produce a distro with a bare minimum of software.
21:15:35 <alise__> The issue with the N900 is that it sucks at everything else apart from Linuxness.
21:15:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's a bit blocky. It's not *big*, though, as far as these things go.
21:15:42 <pikhq> Though, there are quite likely better options than that.
21:15:46 <alise__> But, you know, LOL LINUX MASTURBATE AT LINUX that is the only thing that matters for a smartphone.
21:15:48 <fizzie> alise__: Hey, I like it.
21:15:55 <alise__> fizzie: Yes, but you've used it.
21:15:59 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:16:01 <alise__> fizzie: AnMaster just likes it because it's OMG LINUX.
21:16:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have a non-smartphone that is something like 11x4x1.1 cm
21:16:13 <Gregor> LOL LINUX MASTURBATE AT LINUX is the only thing that matters for most computer technology.
21:16:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not comfortable with a phone that is much larger than that
21:16:33 <AnMaster> which is a bit of a problem if you want a smartphone
21:16:34 <Sgeo> I'll leave my laptop in the kitchen, and Internet from my phone
21:16:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: You may have to wait for a generation or two of miniatiruzizization, then.
21:16:39 <Gregor> AnMaster: Then start using your phone as a computer instead of a sex toy.
21:16:39 <pineapple> i think the one thing that we can all agree about here, is that technology usage is a deeply personal thing, and that it's impossible to cater to everyone
21:16:49 <pikhq> alise__: Dude, I think AnMaster is still ignoring you. :P
21:17:01 <alise__> Which means I can taunt him as much as I want behind his back.
21:17:10 <alise__> And he won't even say something whiny in response; it's great!
21:17:26 <alise__> I do believe you just logread.
21:17:34 <AnMaster> nop, I removed the ignore yesterday
21:17:36 <alise__> Or, you forgot to update your ignore to handle the massive challenge of TWO UNDERSCORES.
21:17:43 <Gregor> $ du -h /home/gregor/js/wk/js/WebKit/WebKitBuild/Debug/lib/libQtWebKit.so.4.5.3
21:17:43 <Gregor> 447M /home/gregor/js/wk/js/WebKit/WebKitBuild/Debug/lib/libQtWebKit.so.4.5.3
21:17:48 <alise__> Oh, you're so kind and generous. That means you're going to talk to me now :<
21:17:49 <pikhq> Hey, look. Actual unignore.
21:17:55 <pikhq> Gregor: Wow that's crazy.
21:18:01 <fizzie> pikhq: Hey, look. Actual unicorn.
21:18:03 <AnMaster> alise__, maybe, if I see a point in it
21:18:13 <alise__> AnMaster: Please ignore me again; it was nice...
21:18:16 <SgeoN1> Surely, even if Linux is all anmaster cares aboit, Android would be good?
21:18:38 <pikhq> Gregor: 19M /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2
21:18:41 <Gregor> I honestly don't know, the build is hidden through like eight layers of stupid scripts
21:18:49 <Gregor> pikhq: That doesn't have all the debugging crap.
21:18:58 <alise__> WHICH MEANS IT'S OBVIOUSLY ABHORRENT
21:18:59 <Gregor> My compiled one is 20MB without debugging.
21:19:02 * SgeoN1 headaches, presumably from the glasses
21:19:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Just a sec while I pull up the split debug file.
21:19:05 <Gregor> So, the debug info is 427MB :P
21:19:08 <alise__> as we all know, gtk is the perfectest for mobile devices
21:19:19 <pikhq> 413M /usr/lib/debug/usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2.debug
21:19:23 <fizzie> Maemo's going (well, trying to go) Qt too; at least officially.
21:19:25 <pikhq> Yup, that's pretty big.
21:19:30 <Gregor> pikhq: lawlercopters :)
21:19:39 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, I want something I can develop my own apps for without the pain of java involved anywhere. for android I understood you can't do the GUI stuff in native code
21:19:42 <fizzie> And MeeGo's going some sort of freaky clutter-based OpenGL thing.
21:19:50 <pikhq> 40M /usr/src/debug/x11-libs/qt-webkit-4.6.2-r1
21:19:51 * SgeoN1 wonders if an X server can be made to run o. Android
21:20:03 <pikhq> And only 40M for the source code *for* those debugging symbols.
21:20:05 <Gregor> AnMaster: I was thinking it would be interesting to use NestedVM to make an Android backend for gdk.
21:20:23 <alise__> Gregor: You misspelled "horrible".
21:20:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, presumably it is built with -ggdb1 or -ggdb2, while Gregor's build is -ggdb3
21:20:51 <Gregor> AnMaster: gdk is the graphics layer for gtk.
21:20:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:21:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh right, sounds familiar now that you mention it
21:21:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, -ggdb3.
21:21:09 <Gregor> SgeoN1: NestedVM exists :P
21:21:30 <fizzie> And anyway, when you use Android, you get Microsoft's lawyers after you. (Okay, so maybe they won't/couldn't quite start going after users instead of phone manufacturers.)
21:21:31 <SgeoN1> Don't know what NestedVM is
21:21:41 <Gregor> NestedVM is a system for compiling C->JVM :P
21:21:44 <pikhq> Note that our debugging info is about the same size. ;)
21:21:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, debug symbols for non-trivial C++ programs tends to be very very large, while for C programs it seems to be just large. Either it is because C++ programs are often larger anyway, or the debug info size grows at different rates
21:22:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: C++ *symbols* are much larger than C symbols.
21:22:10 <pikhq> And there's more of them.
21:22:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, would be interesting to figure out what is going on there. I have seen C++ apps with 40 MB before stripping debug info, and 2 MB after
21:22:31 <AnMaster> and that still kept the symbol table
21:22:56 <pikhq> The debugging info also includes things like "line numbers"...
21:22:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, that can't account for it all, can it?
21:23:16 <pikhq> Have you compared normal C++ code with normal C code?
21:23:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, iirc I have compared 2D SDL-using games in C++ and C, of similar "complexity"/"game-size"
21:24:05 <AnMaster> of course it leaves a bit of fudge factors in
21:24:13 <AnMaster> but shouldn't be completely off
21:25:05 <AnMaster> why that type of app? because I happened to have some such handy when I did that comparison
21:25:05 <pikhq> Also, I'm pretty sure C++ debugging info needs to account for the *types* of those symbols.
21:25:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, so does C debug info to some degree, after all "print somevariable" in gdb gives you it in some reasonable representation
21:26:27 <fizzie> A general C type name is a lot shorter than any instance of Template Hell.
21:26:40 <fizzie> At least based on the screenfuls of errors one gets.
21:26:44 <pikhq> Significantly less.
21:26:49 <pikhq> I'd paste you some fully-expanded commonly used example C++ types from the STL, but *it would flood the channel*.
21:28:30 <AnMaster> couldn't you compress it, presumably a type is often used more than once, and you could do stuff like type 1: namespace: stringtable[382]
21:28:48 <AnMaster> so you didn't need to repeat common strings
21:28:57 <fizzie> Oh, and especially with the name mangling for overloaded methods, which includes the types of arguments in the name.
21:29:00 <pikhq> Also, part of the type for objects is *the object hierarchy*.
21:29:04 <AnMaster> if that is already done and you *still* get that huge debug info then I'm scared
21:29:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean, how they inherit or?
21:29:49 <coppro> AnMaster: You know LaTeX, right?
21:29:49 <fizzie> A generic method "foo" has, at the very least, the namespace and enclosing classes and whatevers.
21:30:03 <AnMaster> coppro, to some degree, I tend to use lyx
21:30:20 <coppro> eh, I'll go to #latex then
21:30:32 <pikhq> There's also the "fun" of implicitly created functions.
21:30:38 <AnMaster> coppro, if it is something you don't know how to typeset it is probably at ctan ;P
21:30:42 <coppro> pikhq: The STL is actually a little shorter since the ABI has a shortcut for the std namespace
21:30:48 <pikhq> These, too, get debugging info.
21:31:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, implicitly created functions?
21:31:07 <fizzie> Here's a single symbol name from objdump -T `which lynx`:
21:31:09 <fizzie> _ZZN5boost9re_detail21basic_regex_formatterINS0_19string_out_iteratorISsEENS_13match_resultsIN9__gnu_cxx17__normal_iteratorIPKcSsEESaINS_9sub_matchIS9_EEEEENS_20regex_traits_wrapperINS_12regex_traitsIcNS_16cpp_regex_traitsIcEEEEEEE16handle_perl_verbEbE24LAST_SUBMATCH_RESULT_ALT
21:31:13 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, but the full debugging info for any bit of the STL must be encoded.
21:31:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sorry, "lyx". :p
21:31:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Each object possesses a constructor, destructor, and copy operator.
21:32:02 <pikhq> If you don't implement these, the C++ compiler generates them for you.
21:32:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, yet I have seen sensible looking C++ programs with short debug symbols. Mostly they don't use boost or stl
21:33:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: That might help. But the name mangling has at least the "class name in every symbol" overhead.
21:33:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, couldn't the copy operator just be a few bytes of wrapper for memcpy() (or if it is supposed to alloc it, new and memcpy)
21:33:21 <coppro> yeah, typically those functions don't actually exist
21:33:51 <coppro> the constructor and destructor are usually no-ops and the copy constructor will likely be a memcpy
21:34:30 <coppro> although if it has a member with a user-defined constructor/copy constructor, then they will have to actually exist
21:34:32 <pikhq> And thus have debugging info.
21:34:51 <alise__> bleh computers suck i hate them
21:35:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, true, iirc the most "sensible" C++ app (when it comes to mangled symbol names) I have seen was some "freestanding" one.
21:35:10 <fizzie> Here's a symbol from "clang", the second C++ program I could think of: _ZN4llvm21SymbolTableListTraitsINS_11InstructionENS_10BasicBlockEE21transferNodesFromListERNS_12ilist_traitsIS1_EENS_14ilist_iteratorIS1_EES8_
21:35:13 <AnMaster> as in, freestanding the way the C spec defines it
21:35:15 <fizzie> It's quite a bit shorter, though.
21:35:20 <pikhq> operator= is *also* generated.
21:35:29 <coppro> pikhq: Quick test shows that I can't find a copy constructor
21:36:29 <AnMaster> how does w3m display graphics in an xterm I wonder
21:36:40 <AnMaster> not that it does it well, it tends to end up in the wrong place
21:38:29 <coppro> in all seriousness, though, someone needs to come up with a decent C++ debugging format that isn't tacked on to a C format, because C++ debugging could be so much better, and not just by putting GDB in the trash bin where it belongs
21:38:47 <AnMaster> coppro, gdb is quite a nice debugger for C IMO
21:38:57 <pikhq> Well, you could start by trashing C++.
21:39:10 <AnMaster> coppro, so what is the issue you have with gdb?
21:39:42 <coppro> AnMaster: for starters, its expression parser is bad, even in C
21:40:55 <coppro> trying to get the name of an enum value that isn't the enum's type
21:41:43 <coppro> You used to be able to cast to the enum type; now you can't
21:42:05 <AnMaster> coppro, yes I noticed gdb 7 had some problems compared to older versions
21:42:16 <AnMaster> like, UL in a print expression not doing what it should
21:43:49 <coppro> Yeah, it just feels like a hacked-together piece of software that gets used because no one's come up with an alternative
21:44:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: As far as I can tell from the w3mimg sources, it uses raw xlib to locate the terminal window, then somehow gets a graphics context for drawing on top of it, maybe-possibly by creating a sneaky new window (popup-style so that it won't show up in window lists and such) or not, not sure. Anyway it doesn't use the terminal emulator at all.
21:44:31 <pikhq> coppro: That's because enums are not a type in C. ;)
21:44:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's similar code for linux framebuffer, to draw directly into it. I think elinks or links2 or something supported the framebuffer like that too.
21:44:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:45:11 <pikhq> A C enum is one or more constant ints.
21:45:37 <coppro> pikhq: enumerators are types
21:45:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, that explains why it does such a bad job for any terminal except xterm.
21:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you deal with it when you have one element. Like +.
21:46:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it do OCR or such to try to figure out where in the terminal it should be?
21:46:05 <pikhq> coppro: An enum in C is not a type.
21:46:40 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean?
21:47:06 <AnMaster> [+] would become "set current cell to 0"
21:47:17 <coppro> pikhq: oh, so it isn't. I misread.
21:47:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it should compile into main(void) { return 0; } IMO
21:47:35 <AnMaster> since there is nothing visible from it
21:47:41 <alise__> AnMaster: please do not talk about things when you have no idea what we are talking about
21:47:47 <AnMaster> (dead store elimination and such)
21:47:53 <pikhq> It is in C++, but then, C++ only has a few vague similarities with C.
21:48:16 <alise__> here's an easy one from N^2 -> N
21:48:36 <alise__> write m and n in unary, i.e. as a series of 1s, in binary; so it's "1111..." in binary.
21:49:02 <alise__> We can do this by seeing {a,b,c} as {a,{b,{c,{}}}}
21:49:11 <alise__> And then adding one to every element we get from the bijection
21:49:18 <alise__> that way we can distinguish nils
21:49:21 <alise__> and do it all with just N^2 -> N
21:49:21 <coppro> pikhq: Yet you can cast to an enum
21:49:26 <coppro> which is what gdb won't accept
21:49:46 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, you can cast to an int.
21:49:55 <alise__> OK, you're totally not getting this :P
21:49:59 <alise__> Maybe I should just write a program?
21:50:00 <coppro> pikhq: or whatever the enumerated type is, if it isn't int
21:50:05 <alise__> Can you understand Haskell?
21:50:10 <pikhq> coppro: An enum is an int.
21:50:31 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Also, note that when we're done with this, we'll have every BF program has a nat, but only a (still infinite) subset of the nats have a BF program
21:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, yes, but it's not the easiest topic to grasp using an IRC channel.
21:50:38 <alise__> because some won't generate well-formed lists
21:50:39 <pikhq> coppro: Actually, an enum is an arbitrary grouping of global constant ints, and a type synonym for an int.
21:50:47 <alise__> but you can probably fix that somehow
21:51:14 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, yeah. the type isn't necessarily int though
21:51:27 <coppro> "Each enumerated type shall be compatible with char, a signed integer type, or an unsigned integer type. The choice of type is implementation-defined,110) but shall be capable of representing the values of all the members of the numeration. The enumerated type is incomplete until after the } that terminates the list of enumerator declarations."
21:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: I get the idea, it's just the precise structure of the list.
21:51:48 <pikhq> It's *an integral type*?
21:51:50 <pikhq> That's very annoying.
21:51:51 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Right; I'm gonna try and show it to you.
21:51:53 <coppro> the constants themselves have to fit in an int though
21:52:17 <coppro> pikhq: It's so that the implmentation can choose a smaller type rather than wasting space on a value that needs 2 bits
21:52:56 -!- adu has joined.
21:54:56 <alise__> heh i'm just looking for a particularly nice N^2 -> N bijection
21:54:59 <coppro> s/$MISSPELLED_WORD/$CORRECTLY_SPELLED_WORD/
21:56:07 <coppro> isn't N^2 <-> N already a bijection?
21:56:21 <adu> Goedel numbers?
21:56:28 <coppro> in the positive numbers, anyways
21:56:46 <alise__> coppro: yes... I mean give a functional relationship for it
21:56:50 <adu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del_numbering
21:56:54 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: hmm... what's the other way of that
21:57:04 <alise__> adu: nah i want something nice and simple and fitting-into-the-universey
21:57:12 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: how's about no
21:57:16 <adu> alise__: how about placevalue?
21:57:42 <adu> how about N^2 -> R
21:57:55 <alise__> you can't write R -> N^2 surjection.
21:58:03 <adu> how about N^2 -> Q
21:58:28 <adu> right, 2/4, 3/6, etc
21:58:50 <adu> then i recommend Goedel numbering
21:59:05 <alise__> N^2 <-> N we're talking about here
21:59:17 <alise__> and I would /really/ like to avoid goedel numbering, something simple-arithmetic would be vastly superior here, I know i've seen a really nice one
21:59:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, it doesn't do any OCR; I think that would be overkill. It just does really random stuff.
21:59:32 <adu> then how about interpositioning their bits?
21:59:44 <adu> i.e. the placevalue solution i suggested
21:59:48 <alise__> adu: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeel maybe.
21:59:52 <alise__> Bitwise is kinda hard in haskell
22:00:11 -!- adam_d has joined.
22:00:13 <adu> if a = a1*2 + a0 and b = b1*2 + b0, then c = a1 b1 a0 b0
22:00:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: For example, it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;
22:00:59 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: thankfully, haskell is well-equipped to /that/ task
22:01:05 <fizzie> It's not a surprise that thing breaks.
22:01:41 <alise__> it'd just be really nice to get this so simple... :(
22:01:48 <alise__> oerjan: c'mon gimme a good N^2 <-> N bijection!
22:01:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: It also finds the terminal window by looking what window has the input focus.
22:02:40 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: sorry my OCD is totally interfering with me actually doing this
22:02:48 <alise__> I just need to find the perfect N^2 <-> N bijection first!
22:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't want to do it with anything involving factorising either.
22:04:09 <alise__> yeah i mean bits would be perfectly practical... but right know the haskell code is like uber elegant
22:04:13 <alise__> and i've love not to have to fuck it up
22:05:15 <coppro> alise__: I don't even understand what you're after :/
22:05:49 <alise__> coppro: you know what a bijection is right...
22:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro: Ages ago, I asked if there was a bijective mapping between the naturals and the set of valid BF programs.
22:06:27 <alise__> and I am currently coding up a lovely constructive proof of it!
22:06:37 <alise__> held up by the lack of elegant bijections from N x N to-fro N.
22:06:56 <coppro> alise__: Yes, I do. I don't understand what you're after though.
22:06:57 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: yes, you'll sound very intellectual
22:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I just wish that there was someone to sound intellectual to
22:07:41 <alise__> coppro: I just want a nice bijection that uses mainly arithmetic and shizz... not factoring, or bit operations, etc
22:07:49 <alise__> i know there is one, i've just forgotten it :)
22:09:09 <coppro> alise__: The triangular one should do it; let me try to recall it
22:09:15 <fizzie> Didn't we once discuss the boring "triangular" mapping thing; the one that does 1; 2 3; 4 5 6; 7 8 9 10; ... as...
22:10:08 <fizzie> Can't say I quite recall how elegant the mapping was, at least in the N-to-N x N direction.
22:10:24 <alise__> The unary mapping thing maps one number to unary(n) := [sum k : 0 <= k < n : (2^k) + 1]
22:11:01 <alise__> it's something insanely clever and beautiful
22:11:06 <alise__> just wait for coppro's long-term and off-site memory banks to actiave
22:11:14 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
22:11:15 <coppro> I think it's (x, y) -> ((x+y-1)^2 + x + y-1)/2 - y - 1; this isn't simplest form though
22:12:15 <alise__> Anything without division? :-)
22:12:21 <alise__> I think fax's had no division...
22:12:29 <alise__> Now how do I reverse that?
22:12:33 <coppro> it's only division by 2
22:12:37 <alise__> Looks like a log in there, if my sleep-deprived brain is right
22:13:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:14:06 <alise__> f(u, v) = u + (u + v + 1)(u + v) / 2
22:14:13 <fizzie> Shouldn't that last -1 be a +1? I mean, http://pastebin.com/zTkDymu9
22:14:17 <Sgeo> This thing keeps saying it's not getting power, but it's not shutting down
22:14:18 <alise__> (part of everything3 article "The set of rational numbers is countably infinite")
22:14:42 <alise__> fizzie: What's the freaky .^?
22:14:54 <coppro> fizzie: Ah yes, it was a bracketing error. Was meant to be - (y - 1)
22:15:00 <fizzie> alise__: Octave/Matlab's "do elementwise exponentiation, not matrix power".
22:15:03 <alise__> coppro: I think this one is easier:
22:15:05 <alise__> f(u, v) = u + (u + v + 1)(u + v) / 2
22:15:12 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: fizzie: ah
22:15:22 <alise__> obviously we do f(x) = x*2
22:15:32 <fizzie> They have .* and ./ and such too, though the use of ./2 was a bit overkill; dividing by a scalar is always elementwise.
22:17:34 <alise__> coppro: i'm doing all the eas^Whard work, you do all the har^Weasy work.
22:17:39 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:17:45 <fizzie> x + (x + y + 1)*(x + y) / 2 gives me antidiagonals of 4; 7 8; 11 12 13; 16 17 18 19; ... for some reason. I think in that one your x and y are supposed to start from 0. Not that it's a problem.
22:18:21 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:18:22 <alise__> fizzie: Yes, starting from 0 is desirable.
22:18:35 <alise__> I wonder if any of the CASs can inverse a function...
22:18:59 <coppro> alpha can reverse it for one variable
22:19:13 <coppro> but can't take the extra step to reverse it for two since it's over the integers
22:19:18 <alise__> the /2 is for the whole thing
22:19:25 <alise__> f(u, v) = u + (u + v + 1)(u + v) / 2
22:19:32 <alise__> also it's over the naturals
22:19:49 <alise__> alpha parsed it wrong with the /2 :(
22:19:58 <alise__> mind alpha's results /did/ give me square roots, so...
22:20:12 <coppro> the first u is not over the 2
22:20:15 * alise__ plugs in the right version
22:20:42 <coppro> and division is transitive with multiplication
22:20:52 <alise__> I haven't slept for over 24 hours, remember
22:20:55 <alise__> or something liek that figure
22:21:16 * alise__ tries inversing your earlier one
22:21:18 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean, how?
22:21:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh at that terminal stuff, and it explains why it is above my tabs...
22:22:03 <coppro> alise__: They're pretty much the same function
22:22:37 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: I've not slept for 40 hours before.
22:22:42 <alise__> Unary one -- because it doesn't include all naturals.
22:22:51 <alise__> There are naturals not of the form (in binary) 11111111111111111111...011111111111111.
22:23:00 <alise__> There are, for instance, naturals like 1010101.
22:23:26 <alise__> I /could/ biject it as elem in unary 0 elem in unary 0 elem in unary, declare duplicate 0s to be ignored, but then it wouldn't be a bijection
22:23:31 <alise__> because the 0s would get lost in translation
22:26:36 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: But does it include every natural in the mapping?
22:26:36 <alise__> That's the important bit...
22:26:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:02 <coppro> what constitutes a valid BF program
22:27:10 <coppro> alise__: Every natural except 1 and 0
22:27:47 <alise__> coppro: any program with balanced brackets.
22:28:07 <alise__> (consider a tape infinite on both sides)
22:28:23 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: 2^ means there's gonna be a sqrt.
22:28:30 <alise__> which will be inherently inaccurate ...
22:29:10 <alise__> Er, inverse is actually -(log(-(1/2-v)/u))/(log(2)) apparently
22:29:25 <alise__> How should we factorise it then?
22:30:06 <alise__> Also, for every x, does there exist u, v such that 2^(u-1)*(2v-1) = x?
22:30:21 <fizzie> It looks to be true, though.
22:30:26 <fizzie> The table is at http://pastebin.com/3Hxr2XpJ
22:31:28 <alise__> fizzie: by adding (-1) to the whole thing can we get all naturals entirely?
22:31:45 * alise__ decides she needs octave, stat
22:32:07 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: We can do that "precisely" with modulo.
22:33:06 <alise__> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
22:33:06 <alise__> biTo (u,v) = (2^(u-1)*(2v-1)) - 1
22:33:18 <alise__> the -1 to cover all naturals
22:33:56 <fizzie> If you want that to accept as input also 0, you might need to do +1 to u and v.
22:34:59 <alise__> biTo (u,v) = (2^u*(2*(v+1)-1)) - 1
22:35:08 <alise__> wait, that's 2*v... unless i'm parsing it wrong
22:35:24 <alise__> biFro1 :: Integer -> Integer
22:35:25 <alise__> biFro1 n = head . filter (\m -> mod (n+1) (2*m) == 0) $ [1..]
22:35:38 <alise__> ugh, biFro1 0 doesn't work
22:36:15 <alise__> in fact biFro1 never terminates apart from on simple values
22:36:19 -!- nooga has joined.
22:37:03 <fizzie> octave:35> [u, v] = ndgrid(0:2, 0:2); 2.^u .* (2*v+1)
22:37:15 <fizzie> Uh, and the -1 in the end.
22:37:31 <alise__> You know what? Just get Octave to invert the bloody function.
22:37:57 <fizzie> Mathematica is, but I couldn't quite figure how to phrase the question.
22:38:13 <fizzie> There's an InverseFunction[] function, but it just prints f^-1 to me. :p
22:38:45 <nooga> i watched wolfram's talk @ TED
22:38:49 <alise__> fizzie: Here, you be my over-IRC mathematica shell and I think I know how to tell it
22:39:10 <fizzie> As in, yes, I can paste things in.
22:39:18 <alise__> fizzie: RmRf["BIG FAT COCKS/"]
22:39:26 <alise__> Or, /me googles the right function arguments again
22:39:28 <fizzie> Out[16]= RmRf[BIG FAT COCKS/]
22:39:47 <alise__> fizzie: MathKernel$System["rm -rf ~"]
22:39:56 <fizzie> I think I'll skip that one.
22:40:02 <fizzie> Though it'd solve my quota problem, I guess.
22:40:08 <nooga> System is in MathKernel ?
22:40:18 <nooga> not the most ogical solution i've seen
22:40:39 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: so what is the algorithm :P
22:40:43 <nooga> then you do it wrong ;]
22:41:34 <fizzie> alise__: If you want, you could do <<"!rm -rf whatever"
22:42:11 <nooga> maybe we should think about rm -rf based esolang
22:42:12 <fizzie> That's just a read-file, the ! is important there.
22:43:23 <fizzie> alise__: Aha-ha: http://pastebin.com/xjqxZLnw
22:43:33 <alise__> fizzie: what is it? internet is borky
22:43:44 <fizzie> Well, I guess I can paste, it's not that much.
22:43:51 <fizzie> GConf Error: Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details - 1: Not running within active session)
22:43:51 <fizzie> GConf Error: Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details - 1: Not running within active session)
22:43:52 <fizzie> Get::noopen: Cannot open anus.
22:43:56 <fizzie> In[2]:= GConf Error: Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details - 1: Not running within active session)
22:44:02 <fizzie> I have zero idea why reading a file involves GConf somehow.
22:44:04 <nooga> 23:43 < fizzie> Get::noopen: Cannot open anus.
22:44:33 <alise__> ah yes, the goatse failure
22:45:34 <Sgeo> "He Has No Anus"
22:45:53 <Sgeo> ^^reference to a piece of music "He Has No Face", so obscure that Google isn't finding iot
22:46:27 <nooga> i'm looking for a name for my regexp compiler
22:46:56 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: So what is the algorithm?
22:47:19 <Sgeo> http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=73115
22:47:29 <Sgeo> That may or may not be it
22:47:38 <nooga> Fast Regular Expression CompiLEr ;]
22:47:59 <Sgeo> It came with Popcap's downloadable Alchemy
22:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't know if it goes into a declarative language easily.
22:48:17 <fizzie> alise__: Inverse::matsq: Argument 3 at position 1 is not a non-empty square matrix.
22:48:45 <alise__> InverseFunction[x^2==p*o*o*p, x]
22:49:01 <fizzie> Out[4]= InverseFunction[x == o p , x]
22:49:33 <Sgeo> I love this tune
22:49:53 <alise__> Find largest m such that n/2^m is an integer (easy with a loop and modulo)
22:49:57 <alise__> this is the bit that is not working so much :-)
22:50:14 <alise__> fizzie: InverseFunction[#&]
22:50:27 <alise__> we are going for ((2^u) * ((2*v) + 1)) - 1
22:50:36 <alise__> which is quite different from yours!
22:50:56 <fizzie> alise__: You have succesfully inverted the identity function.
22:51:03 <alise__> fizzie: InverseFunction[((2^#1)*((2*#2)+1))-1&]
22:51:07 <alise__> I am a real mathematician now
22:51:15 <fizzie> Out[8]= InverseFunction[2 (2 #2 + 1) - 1 & ]
22:51:38 <fizzie> Out[9]= computer die Die
22:51:56 <fizzie> I like how it sorts those words.
22:52:18 <alise__> fizzie: Solve[c*o*m*p*u*t*e*r^p*o*o*p == d*i*e]
22:52:53 * Sgeo wants an s3m player for Android
22:53:14 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:53:51 <fizzie> alise__: That is far too long to paste: http://zem.fi/~fis/foo00001.txt if you want to fetch a plaintext file.
22:54:24 <alise__> I like how it turned my inane childishness into a nice division with roots and logs.
22:56:36 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, do you think you can revise the algorithm for ((2^u) * ((2*v) + 1)) - 1?
22:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Haskelling it is still up to you. I'm going to try it in Python, then Lisp.
22:59:01 <alise__> I just want the abstract algorithm.
22:59:04 <alise__> Since the formula changed.
22:59:07 <alise__> As I keep trying to tel you :p
22:59:19 <fizzie> Sgeo: You mean it doesn't play modules? How horrid. On maemo that's just "apt-get install mod-support"; it pulls in gstreamer0.10-modplug and libmodplug0c2 and supports .mod, .s3m, .it, .xm and whatevers.
23:00:06 <fizzie> A separate "s3m player" sounds a bad idea anyway, surely that sort of stuff should integrate with the other media codecs the device has. I assume you can add new codecs there somehow?
23:00:36 <Sgeo> fizzie, I don't know how
23:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: First, you need to add one to n at the start.
23:01:11 <alise__> Then? Presumably the equations for u and v differ.
23:01:18 <fizzie> Some open system that is if you can't stick in new codecs.
23:01:42 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
23:02:27 <fizzie> There's some instructions on how to compile libmodplug with Android's NDK, but that's geared for someone who wants to use mod music in an app of his.
23:03:03 <alise__> how do we disprove that there can't be a larger m that's an int
23:03:11 <fizzie> (With a Java thread to pull actually play sound, blegh.)
23:03:17 <alise__> And v=(n/2^m-1)/2 (where n is f(u, v)+1)
23:03:22 <alise__> so if we've added one to the start
23:03:54 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: just gimme your actual code :P
23:07:35 <fizzie> Largest m such that n/2^m is an integer? Do you really need to bother with modulo? Just iterate and do /2 to n as long as it stays even, and count how many times you did that?
23:08:47 <coppro> certainly seemed included to me
23:08:59 <fizzie> It's a bit cheapo indentation, just one space.
23:09:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null).
23:09:30 <coppro> fizzie: It was a tab; your client must have converted
23:09:54 <fizzie> Really? I thought x-chat passed those straight through. Well, maybe not.
23:10:06 <coppro> (seriously, tabs in Python? yurk)
23:10:08 <fizzie> Yes, here in irssi it looks like the inverted-I.
23:10:16 <alise__> "This statement is sometimes used to illustrate the fact that the rational numbers are countable while reals are not. It is obviously true. Considering that obviously true statements in probability theory have a nasty habit of being false there is a point in proving it."
23:10:37 <alise__> so integer division works here?
23:11:11 <alise__> so basically we're considering n to be one of [0..]
23:11:41 <alise__> basically we construct [n, n/2, n/2/2, ..., x] such that x is divisible by two
23:12:49 <alise__> v=(n'/2^m-1)/2 <- ((n')/(2^(m-1)))/2?
23:13:35 <fizzie> For a fixed-bit number, I'm sure someone's done a bit-twiddling hack to do that in O(1). I would even guess it involves n^(n-1) and first-set-bit counting.
23:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I should prove that it's bijective, but it's late.
23:16:58 -!- fax has joined.
23:21:05 <SgeoN1> My computer makes me want to scream right now
23:21:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:21:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:22:19 <SgeoN1> It's an obsolete piece of technology!
23:22:43 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: this code injects NxN into N?
23:23:59 <fax> how do you get 5?
23:24:05 <fax> tup2n(?,?) = 5?
23:24:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:25:53 <fax> I can't see how this is a bijection if it's got 2^u in it, but it does seem to be
23:26:39 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:26:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:27:35 <fax> wow that is really clever
23:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I stole the injection of NxN to N from Google, but I did the inverse myself.
23:28:14 <fax> I know a much simpler way to find a bijection between N and NxN
23:28:28 <fax> but this is much more clever
23:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> This started as an attempt to biject the natural numbers and the valid Brainfuck programs, BtW.
23:30:05 <fax> take the sequence {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...}
23:30:18 <fax> the finite integral of f(n) = n is {1,3,6,10,15,...}
23:30:22 <fax> triangular numbers
23:30:31 <fax> call that function T(n)
23:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__ found a neat way of flattening a valid BF program into a list of naturals.
23:31:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So then we needed to fold that into a single natural, which requires a bijection.
23:31:31 <alise__> i am asking about parenthesisation dammit
23:32:40 <SgeoN1> My computer's acting deas
23:34:06 <alise__> no, because it has to be div.
23:34:15 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:34:19 <alise__> can you please fully, fully, parenise, the /python/ expression
23:34:25 <alise__> then i can /easily/ translate it to hs
23:35:05 <alise__> Now please paren the Python one because it's the only way I'm going to be able to put this in the Haskell source.
23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: The function should never give floats, but it's probably the type system, right?
23:37:16 <alise__> (/) :: (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a
23:37:17 <alise__> div :: (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
23:38:39 <alise__> [(0,0),(1,0),(0,1),(2,0),(0,2),(1,1),(0,3),(3,0),(0,4),(1,2),(0,5)]
23:39:56 -!- nooga has joined.
23:40:31 <alise__> now I just need to write the flattener
23:41:42 <alise__> *Main> decrush . crush $ [1,2,3]
23:42:29 <oerjan> how did you encode ,[.,] into tuples again?
23:42:30 <alise__> *Main> fmap decrush [0..20]
23:42:30 <alise__> [[],[1],[0,1],[2],[0,0,1],[1,1],[0,2],[3],[0,0,0,1],[1,0,1],[0,1,1],[2,1],[0,0,2],[1,2],[0,3],[4],[0,0,0,0,1],[1,0,0,1],[0,1,0,1],[2,0,1],[0,0,1,1]]
23:42:43 <alise__> oerjan: make the non-loop instructions6 0-
23:42:51 <alise__> loop :: [Integer] -> [Integer]
23:42:55 <alise__> foo = [input] ++ loop [input, output]
23:43:28 <oerjan> alise__: that encoding _deletes_ all ][ sequences
23:43:41 <alise__> clearly I need one extra; nop
23:43:53 <oerjan> let me suggest instead: loop :: [Integer] -> Integer
23:44:23 -!- hiato has joined.
23:44:44 <alise__> 2808895523222368605827039360607851146278089029597354019897345018089573059460952548948569958162617750330001779372990521213418590137725259726450741103741783193402623334763523207442222181269470220616454421126328215138096104411600982523029892352200425580677351729446660909999175717788745567263052442650378502127
23:45:01 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: now i must tell you, there is one remaining issue
23:45:02 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga: The whole mess? An attempt at making a bijective mapping between the naturals and the valid BF programs.
23:45:05 <alise__> decrush is NOT int -> bf prog
23:45:21 <alise__> since every integer is now a valid loop!
23:45:33 <alise__> i am so happy I am going to write [Integer] -> String prettyprinter now
23:45:39 <alise__> so we can look at the ordering of the bf programs
23:45:44 <alise__> the best work i have ever done
23:47:00 <SgeoN1> Wish I could have helped :-[
23:47:08 <coppro> SgeoN1: playing mafia?
23:47:56 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Er, it doesn't /quite/ work yet.
23:48:36 <hiato> alise__: bf to int?
23:48:59 <alise__> every nat to a program; every program to a nat.
23:49:03 <alise__> who wants to see the first 100 bf programs?
23:49:19 <alise__> Programs first -- then code!
23:49:33 <alise__> http://pastie.org/942858.txt?key=jan8h4duifdooaap617mg
23:49:41 <alise__> Chaos, it looks like. I bet if fizzie did it in a table it'd show coherency.
23:49:41 <hiato> Hmm, so is it every nat to valid bf?
23:49:53 <alise__> we've successfully well-ordered the bf programs
23:49:59 <fax> just use binary for fucks sake
23:50:00 <alise__> fax: To Show It Could Be Done.
23:50:13 <alise__> then not every natural is a valid prog
23:50:15 <hiato> and in Haskell I see
23:50:16 * SgeoN1 wants his computer to work
23:50:24 <fax> lame and trivial
23:50:46 <alise__> fax: it was /not/ trivial; and fuck off.
23:50:51 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: what does it matter, you don't listen to me even if I am saying something
23:50:53 <hiato> alise__: apparently your upload does not exist
23:50:55 <pikhq> He's got a 1:1 mapping from Brainfuck to the naturals. Because he felt like it.
23:51:00 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: I'm going to write a parser now
23:51:01 <fax> alise__ lol okay maybe not for you
23:51:20 <pikhq> Useless, sure. But not quite the same as just "using binary".
23:51:22 <alise__> fax: you know what? you're a huge asshole who just spends all of their time calling other people cunts
23:51:33 <fax> alise__: fuck you
23:51:36 <fax> alise__: You're a cunt
23:51:41 <alise__> fax: yes; that was the sentiment i was trying to express
23:51:43 <fax> alise__: I never said that about anyone
23:51:53 <alise__> i know for a fact that's false sooo
23:52:12 <fax> alise__: you just made it up, grep everything I said today if your brain can't do it
23:52:25 <fax> which wouldn't suprise me
23:52:34 <alise__> anyway this is boring; you are boring; and also a dick; so I'm not talking to you any more.
23:52:59 <SgeoN1> How about a mapping to all bf programs that don't have things like +-
23:53:18 <fax> lol @ alise getting all upset because he thought his trivial program was difficult to write
23:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want, fine, but it's hard to objectively define a notrivial program.
23:53:52 <alise__> i didn't think it was difficult
23:53:58 <alise__> i just thought it was beautiful.
23:54:12 <fax> it's completely trivial
23:54:18 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: i'm adding a parser!!
23:54:21 <alise__> sheesh and people have called /me/ the negative influence in this place
23:54:58 <fax> "grown ups" spending your time fucking about wanking with brainfuck programming
23:55:17 <SgeoN1> A parser for bf? I wrote one of those
23:55:20 <fax> implying that grown ups have time for this shit
23:55:29 <fax> that's the funniest thing I've ever heard: HAHAHAHAHA
23:55:49 <alise__> if you are not interested in what we are talking
23:55:53 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: I was perfectly fine until you completely ignored me
23:56:06 <alise__> and then both our problems will be solved.
23:56:19 <SgeoN1> Fax, this is #esoteric. #productive-stuff-only is that way --->
23:56:20 <fax> sure is /ignore alise__ in here
23:56:34 <alise__> Sure is mentally ignoring fax in here.
23:56:59 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ok, just gonna add a tiny little cli to it
23:58:19 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
23:58:39 * SgeoN1 wants to see it too, especially since he has no idea what thhe algorithm is
23:59:16 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: did you get that?
23:59:23 <fax> earlier you asked me to explain something
23:59:30 <fax> so I started... then you just talked over me
23:59:34 <alise__> because one of my functions is named that, and it makes me think of afro
23:59:43 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ignore fax he has serious emotional issues when people "ignore" him
00:00:30 <oerjan> nooga: so you are black all over now?
00:01:01 * oerjan likes making obvious conclusions
00:01:03 <nooga> i'm making circuit boards for my modem and 8088 computer
00:01:28 <SgeoN1> My laptop's receiving power now!
00:01:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Now, we just need to find interesting patterns in the results.
00:01:33 <nooga> using chalk paper and laserjet
00:02:41 <alise__> also, bifrocation; too good a coincidence
00:02:44 <alise__> it splits bf into two parts? sorta?
00:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, it's midnight and I have to revise tomorrow. Perhaps you could put the code on the wiki?
00:03:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Phantom_Hoover).
00:03:59 * oerjan recalls a nice bitbased algorithm for [Integer] -> Integer
00:04:27 <alise__> oerjan: the important thing was that all nats were covered
00:04:40 <oerjan> basically, convertFromBinary . intercalate "1" . map convertToFibonacciBase
00:04:40 <alise__> $ echo ',[.,]' | ./bifro encode | ./bifro decode
00:04:50 <alise__> $ echo 123456789 | ./bifro decode | ./bifro encode
00:05:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:05:07 <oerjan> this covers all Nats, or nearly so
00:05:19 <alise__> http://pastie.org/942869.txt?key=vvwlyvvpwhxulduzur3q
00:05:24 <oerjan> although i probably messed up the exact definition
00:05:34 <fax> alise__ why are you so horrible to me
00:05:42 <alise__> fax: because you were a jerk to me.
00:05:47 <fax> alise__ what did I do?
00:06:07 <nooga> alise__ is generally horrible
00:06:14 <alise__> well we were just talking about a program and you started going all on about how it's trivial and pointless for no reason... also, you do your fair share of ignoring /me/
00:06:17 <fax> other than like teach you everything I know about dependent types
00:06:48 * SgeoN1 should learn dependent types at some point.
00:06:52 <nooga> 01:05 < alise__> well we were just talking about a program and you started going all on about how it's trivial and pointless for no reason... also, you do your fair share of ignoring /me/
00:06:53 <nooga> maybe he's adapting your methods, alise__ ? :>>
00:07:24 <alise__> <fax> WHY? <fax> just use binary for fucks sake <fax> lame and trivial <fax> alise__ lol okay maybe not for you <fax> alise__: fuck you <fax> alise__: You're a cunt <fax> lol @ alise getting all upset because he thought his trivial program was difficult to write
00:07:51 <fax> stop fabricating IRC logs
00:07:55 <fax> we all know that didn't happen
00:08:04 <alise__> you just said it right now.
00:08:10 <fax> no I did not
00:08:12 <alise__> wow so fax has some /serious/ denial issues.
00:08:13 <fax> you're doing this again
00:08:18 <alise__> fax: please, look it up on tunes.org
00:08:23 <fax> you did this just a min ago and now you are doing it /again/
00:08:24 <alise__> the lines are there plain as day i forged not a single one
00:08:37 <alise__> seriously if you cannot believe that you wrote those lines -- which you DID --
00:08:42 <fax> that's really funny alise good trick what are you trying to gett hough
00:08:46 <alise__> well you have serious issues
00:08:56 <oerjan> fax: i am considering banning you now
00:09:06 <alise__> guys I think fax might actually be legitimately insane... I don't think he's trolling he's acted weirdly like this before
00:09:53 * alise__ considers whether feeding mandelbrot.b to his program is a good idea
00:09:53 <fax> oerjan: I will be missing out on Phantom_hoover ignoring me and alise flipping out at me and telling me to fuck off because I said a program was trivla
00:10:14 <alise__> SgeoN1: no, i wish he was though
00:10:26 <fax> I don't know why people are being so nasty to me
00:10:50 <oerjan> fax: well at the moment you are either joking or insane.
00:11:09 <SgeoN1> Fax: phantom_hoover left
00:11:16 <alise__> even encoding http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/rot13.bf hangs my program
00:11:23 <alise__> these are some /seriously/ large numbers
00:11:25 <oerjan> it's hard to tell, alise__ isn't exactly unbiased in her judgements
00:11:28 <fax> alise__, welcome to haskell programming
00:11:31 <alise__> oerjan: i'm not sure your recursive-crushing was such a good idea
00:11:41 <oerjan> alise__: of course, 2^n isn't very effective
00:11:44 <alise__> fax: you think it might be the unimaginably huge growth in numbers instead?
00:12:06 <alise__> eh, it's more fun for number -> program
00:12:22 <pikhq> alise__: I'd be very amused if your encoding method ended up being a Brainfuck compression program. :P
00:12:33 <alise__> $ echo 1234567891011121314151617181920 | ./bifro decode
00:12:33 <alise__> ----->-->+++--+---[<][]++--<++----,-+[+]-++<--+++-.
00:12:37 <alise__> it sure does produce useless programs
00:12:38 <pikhq> ... It kinda *is*.
00:12:53 <alise__> yeah it compresses it into an integer many many times bigger than the program.
00:12:56 <pikhq> It's only being asked to produce valid ones. Not useful ones.
00:13:11 <alise__> it really shies away from loops, since the numbers are so big
00:13:14 <pikhq> "1234567891011121314151617181920" is smaller than "----->-->+++--+---[<][]++--<++----,-+[+]-++<--+++-.".
00:13:30 <alise__> you know it is funny, because we are almost deserialising for num->prog
00:13:31 <fax> 1234567891011121314151617181920 <-- base 10
00:13:39 <alise__> instantly EXPLODES your program
00:13:44 <alise__> with multiple nested serialisations
00:13:46 <fax> ----->-->+++--+---[<][]++--<++----,-+[+]-++<--+++-. <-- base 7 (or something)
00:13:49 <alise__> you know it is funny, because we are almost factorising for num->prog
00:13:57 <alise__> fax: no because of balanced loops
00:14:01 <alise__> that's the whole reason I did this
00:14:26 <oerjan> alise__: incidentally i think if the order of tuples were reversed, then even programs without loops would get enormous
00:14:27 <alise__> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 | ./bifro decode
00:14:27 <alise__> >-->-->-->-->-->-->-->+.+--<---------+--+>-<.<<++<+<----<+,++--->>+-+>--<
00:14:27 <alise__> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111112 | ./bifro decode
00:14:27 <alise__> ---+->-->-->-->-->-->-->+.+--<---------+--+>-<.<<++<+<----<+,++--->>+-+>--<
00:14:31 <alise__> Hey, it... prepended to the start.
00:15:03 <alise__> $ echo '[[[[]]]]' | ./bifro encode
00:15:08 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime
00:15:09 <alise__> maybe the parser is broken???
00:15:11 <oerjan> it's only the head of a cons that is so enormously encoded
00:15:20 <alise__> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo '[]' | ./bifro encode
00:15:21 <alise__> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo '[[]]' | ./bifro encode
00:15:36 <alise__> this is the most hideously inefficient numbering system ever
00:15:59 <alise__> so the bijection is imperfect
00:16:05 <alise__> -- and having nested crushed loops is imperfect too
00:16:12 <alise__> and whenever we talk about a brainfuck program
00:16:18 <alise__> we can just say, instead of pastebinning
00:16:21 <alise__> oh, it's #xkcd in the list
00:16:55 <fax> I wish people would be nicer to me
00:17:24 <alise__> I wish you would be nicer to people.
00:18:13 <oerjan> alise__: the triangular N x N <-> N encoding is much more balanced, i should think
00:18:21 <alise__> oerjan: does it cover all nats?
00:18:25 <alise__> it's very important we cover all nats :P
00:18:37 <oerjan> sure, if you get the off-by-one shifts right...
00:18:39 <fax> this is what i was talking about earlier
00:18:45 <fax> but phantom_hoover didn't want to hear it
00:19:03 <oerjan> fax: it was mentioned (credited somewhat to you) even before you arrived
00:19:10 <alise__> yes, i did credit it to you.
00:19:22 <oerjan> but for some reason they didn't like it. hard to reverse was it?
00:19:23 <fax> it's not due to me
00:19:31 <fax> I just re-explained it in terms of finite-calculus
00:20:00 <oerjan> needs a square root approximation, is the problem...
00:20:15 <alise__> i suspect that sqrt(n) may have been integer for all relevant ns
00:20:50 <oerjan> you need a square root approximation to find one of the tuple coordinates
00:21:13 <oerjan> s/approximation/floor/
00:21:30 <alise__> well sqrt floor should always be right in haskell methinks.
00:21:46 <oerjan> except it's not bignum compatible
00:22:06 <oerjan> well without some hackage probably
00:23:26 <pikhq> alise__: You have still created a compression scheme for Brainfuck. However, this compression scheme is not very *useful*, as it only appears to actually compress a large number of fairly stupid programs.
00:23:41 <fax> everyone in the world is horrible
00:23:46 <pikhq> Actually. Think you could try running it on a "Hello, world!" program without any loops?
00:23:59 <oerjan> alise__: try reversing the tuple order and see what programs you get _then_ :D
00:24:15 <alise__> pikhq: it'd not be too big
00:24:17 <oerjan> (i bet then loops would be _over_-represented
00:24:37 <alise__> Ssh, we're about to make a publication.
00:24:39 <oerjan> alise__: just to test for fun of course
00:24:56 <fax> whats a publication
00:25:22 <alise__> oerjan: not even gonna THINK about it :D
00:25:49 <oerjan> alise__: i meant to run it in the Integer -> Program direction, fwiw
00:26:15 <fax> what is going on
00:26:18 <alise__> Your paste cannot be larger than 100 kb. Sorry.
00:26:22 <alise__> The Bifro Society of the United Kingdom are pleased to announce their latest
00:26:22 <alise__> research result: the first 10002 brainfuck programs, in order.
00:26:51 <fax> what is 'in order' about them
00:27:06 <alise__> they're the decodings of 0,1,2,etc
00:27:11 <alise__> and bifro is the name of my program
00:27:28 <alise__> oerjan: lol, with that modification
00:27:41 <alise__> "1" becomes an infinite amount of -s
00:27:52 <alise__> decrush :: Integer -> [Integer]
00:27:53 <alise__> decrush n = let (xsn,x) = biFro n in x : decrush xsn
00:27:53 <alise__> --decrush n = let (x,xsn) = biFro n in x : decrush xsn
00:28:06 <alise__> 2 becomes the rather more mundane +
00:28:33 <alise__> 3 -+; 4 <; 5 +(infinite -s)
00:29:04 <alise__> [[[[.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------...
00:29:08 <fax> write a program that deletes everything on your computer
00:29:36 <alise__> i'm all ears for the triangular thing
00:33:15 <SgeoN1> Earbuds aren't supposed to hurt, are they?
00:33:28 <oerjan> or wait it cannot be (1,1) then it would have been infinite before
00:34:12 <alise__> YOU ARE EXTREMELY INCORRECT AT EVERYTHING
00:34:44 <oerjan> well in that case wtf do you get infinite -s?
00:34:46 <alise__> then it just goes everywhere:
00:34:53 <alise__> [(0,0),(1,0),(0,1),(2,0),(0,2),(1,1),(0,3),(3,0),(0,4),(1,2),(0,5),(2,1),(0,6),(1,3),(0,7),(4,0),(0,8),(1,4),(0,9),(2,2),(0,10)]
00:35:08 <alise__> decrush n = let (x,xsn) = biFro n in x : decrush xsn
00:35:11 <alise__> here we don't decrease on x
00:35:17 <alise__> the secret is that recursing biFro on x
00:35:26 <alise__> so the recursion never reaches a base case
00:35:31 <alise__> i.e. biFro is biased towards latters
00:35:34 <fax> guess what I wrote today
00:35:46 <alise__> like maybe biFro stays constant, or oscillates, or grows
00:35:46 <fax> A program that expresses any number as the sum of two squares mod p
00:36:06 <alise__> biFro :: Integer -> (Integer,Integer)
00:36:07 <alise__> biFro n = (m, (((n `div` (2^m)) - 1) `div` 2) + 1)
00:36:08 <alise__> m = toInteger . length . takeWhile (\n'' -> mod n'' 2 == 0) $ iterate (`div` 2) n'
00:36:25 <fax> SgeoN1 what did you just say
00:36:26 <oerjan> alise__: if you use 0 for nil, the bifro should be a bijection between [1..] and [0..] x [0..]
00:36:53 <alise__> crush :: [Integer] -> Integer
00:36:54 <alise__> crush (x:xs) = biTo (x, crush xs)
00:36:57 <alise__> this is how it works so umm
00:37:02 <alise__> eventually we get to biTo (something, 0)
00:37:17 <alise__> 10715086071862673209484250490600018105614048117055336074437503883703510511249361224931983788156958581275946729175531468251871452856923140435984577574698574803934567774824230985421074605062371141877954182153046474983581941267398767559165543946077062914571196477686542167660429831652624386837205668069375
00:37:41 <alise__> *Main> map (\n -> biTo (n, 0)) [0..20]
00:37:42 <alise__> [0,1,3,7,15,31,63,127,255,511,1023,2047,4095,8191,16383,32767,65535,131071,262143,524287,1048575]
00:37:49 <alise__> every time you think you've figured out the sequence, it fucks with you
00:38:02 <alise__> it's powers of two minus one
00:38:05 <alise__> that's so stupid i love it
00:38:40 <alise__> this thing contains the secrets of the universe
00:39:10 <alise__> aha, then it keeps getting graduall more spaced apart, i think
00:40:35 <alise__> *Main> map (\n -> biTo (n, 1)) [0..20]
00:40:36 <alise__> [2,5,11,23,47,95,191,383,767,1535,3071,6143,12287,24575,49151,98303,196607,393215,786431,1572863,3145727]
00:40:38 <alise__> the retarded theme continues
00:40:49 <alise__> *Main> map (\n -> biTo (n, n)) [0..20]
00:40:49 <alise__> [0,5,19,55,143,351,831,1919,4351,9727,21503,47103,102399,221183,475135,1015807,2162687,4587519,9699327,20447231,42991615]
00:41:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:41:20 <SgeoN1> Would be fun if it was all and only primes
00:42:03 <oerjan> SgeoN1: and quite impossible to calculate efficiently. not that this 2^n thing helps...
00:42:20 <alise__> hey biTo is constant time dude.
00:42:27 <alise__> it's that biFro you wanna look out for
00:43:20 * Sgeo was thinking more of "incredibly impressive and an incredible discovery"
00:43:36 <fax> Sgeo you shouldn't just sit back and throw insults at people that's actually really not cool
00:43:54 <alise__> so how's that triangular stuff oerjan
00:44:03 <alise__> Sgeo: an impossible discovery
00:44:08 <alise__> it's been proven that you can't do primes like that :P
00:44:23 <oerjan> it's been mentioned several times, i don't remember it any better...
00:44:24 * Sgeo isn't even sure what the algorithm is, so
00:44:26 <fax> can't do primes like what?
00:44:57 <Sgeo> Or are you saying, can't do primes in polynomial time?
00:45:19 <alise__> like there's no algebraic expression that generates primes and only primes.
00:45:34 <fax> there is one that gives primes for alj positive values
00:45:43 <fax> the negative values are garbage though
00:45:49 <oerjan> alise__: i don't think powers are included in that
00:46:00 <oerjan> it's polynomials i've heard about
00:46:05 <alise__> oerjan: then consider it proven by plot
00:46:42 <fax> it's not practical if you actually want to compute primes with it tohugh
00:46:43 <alise__> so um how come we aren't discovering new primes in 0 time
00:46:59 <fax> because it is hyperdimension and there is a lot of garbage
00:47:05 <fax> (negative values)
00:47:36 <oerjan> presumably most random parameters give either tiny or negative numbers...
00:48:14 <Sgeo> Oh, thought that by negatives you meant input, or something
00:48:33 <fax> Sgeo you should learn
00:48:50 <fax> to hold you tongue sometimes, and to speak other times
00:49:24 <alise__> that you are not a dispenser of zen koans
00:49:29 <alise__> ready to enlighten the life of another
00:49:38 <alise__> at their fine line'd wisdom
00:49:51 <alise__> seriously that's very condescending.
00:50:07 <oerjan> alise__: we could use ternary!
00:50:34 <oerjan> for less explosive list encoding?
00:50:59 <fax> what about tertiary
00:51:09 <fax> or balanced becimal?
00:51:22 <oerjan> fromTernary . intercalate "2" . map toBinary
00:51:41 <alise__> how about balanced binary coded negative phinary
00:51:49 <alise__> i think that would be good
00:51:56 <alise__> oerjan: still need [[[nesting]]]
00:52:00 <fax> that sounds PHINE.
00:52:24 <fax> alise__: status of finding the a brainfuck program called n which prints n
00:52:28 <oerjan> alise__: well duh but this wouldn't be that much enlargement per level
00:52:39 <alise__> balanced ternary is with the -, 0, + thing i think
00:52:47 <alise__> binary coded decimal is just segregating bits of binary to work as decimal digits
00:52:56 <fax> is it possible no quine exists?
00:52:58 <alise__> so it's just like segregating bits of binary to use as negative phinary digits
00:52:59 <fax> it seems possible to me
00:53:00 <nooga> i wonder how to implement sets and set hashing in C
00:53:02 <alise__> except there's negatives too
00:53:16 <alise__> of course it depends on the numbering...
00:53:18 <pikhq> alise__: I think I'm the one here with the most right to dispense zen koans.
00:53:27 <alise__> but my intuition leads me to believe that there are usually quines
00:53:32 <alise__> i mean when in doubt add tons of +-s :P
00:53:34 <fax> obviously the numbering should make a special accountance so that 666 is a quine - or something
00:53:45 <pikhq> As I know how to write "zen". :P
00:54:34 <alise__> YOUR SERVERS SHALL VIRTUAL SOMETHING SOMETHING
00:54:38 <oerjan> fax: a brainfuck program can obviously calculate the encoding. i should think the usual quine-construction theorems apply
00:54:51 <alise__> fax: now consider a BF program #n, outputting m such that BF program #m outputs n
00:55:08 <fax> oerjan - I don't see that working myself but that might be my problem
00:55:14 <pikhq> It'd be a major *pain* to implement, but yes, the usual quine-construction theorems apply.
00:55:47 <alise__> we have very strong, well-tested quiney wimey theorems
00:55:58 <alise__> that let us construct any sort of ridiculous multi-polyglot-quine-chain
00:56:07 <alise__> all this is is an additional function, plus more fluff in the code to get the number right
00:56:09 * Sgeo wants/needs to read about these
00:56:11 <alise__> the number is just an encoding of the source basically
00:56:12 <fax> let us consider the contrapositive,
00:56:14 <alise__> so instead of matching source
00:56:18 <alise__> we match this transformation on the source
00:56:26 <fax> The claim is that there is no computable numbering of brainfuck programs that avoids quines
00:56:59 <Sgeo> Wouldn't the digits just make a programming language?
00:57:00 <alise__> yes that seems very likely
00:57:09 <Sgeo> *turing-complete programming language?
00:57:12 <alise__> consider that all numberings are essentially a transformation on the source
00:57:21 <alise__> and that the source can already be considered to be in some arbitrary encoding
00:57:27 <alise__> and if it can be encoded/decoded
00:57:30 <fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
00:57:32 <pikhq> fax: Yes, that is the fixed point theorem.
00:57:38 <alise__> `addquote <fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
00:57:40 <HackEgo> 156|<fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
00:58:38 <pikhq> This is true for... Every TC language with sufficient IO capabilities to output the text of such a quine, I'm pretty sure.
00:59:33 <fax> is this theorem effective enough that you can actually calculate this quine
01:00:24 <alise__> fax: well we can certainly construct it with ingenuity, we've handled harder tasks before
01:00:24 <oerjan> `addquote <fax> we all know that didn't happen
01:00:30 <HackEgo> 157|<fax> we all know that didn't happen
01:00:36 <alise__> we all know that didn't happen, oerjan
01:00:49 <HackEgo> 29|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
01:00:52 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
01:00:57 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
01:01:01 <HackEgo> 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
01:01:05 <HackEgo> 99|<coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
01:01:11 <alise__> bsmntbombdood: note alternate universe qualifier
01:01:14 <HackEgo> 146|<Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
01:01:20 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
01:01:27 <pikhq> fax: No, but they're generally easy to write.
01:01:30 <HackEgo> 117|<Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
01:01:31 <HackEgo> 153|* Warrigal refuses to say goodbye to Quas NaArt, as he is coming closer, not going farther.
01:01:34 <HackEgo> 118|<apollo> Actually, he still looks like he'd rather eat her than have sex with her.
01:01:40 <HackEgo> 103|<oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program
01:01:46 <HackEgo> 104|<AnMaster> I'm 100% of what sort of magic was involved in it
01:01:50 <Sgeo> There is a thingy
01:01:53 <HackEgo> 54|<lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary
01:01:58 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
01:02:06 <alise__> i like that corollary, a lot
01:02:19 <pikhq> You pretty much just need a way of computing the source code of your program and a way of mapping your source code into your preferred numbering.
01:02:23 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
01:02:29 <Sgeo> http://normish.nomictools.com/sgeo/quotes.txt
01:02:35 <HackEgo> 13|* ehird has joined #lobby <Madelon> hmmm clean me
01:02:41 <fax> `quote fax
01:02:41 <HackEgo> 61|<fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
01:02:43 <HackEgo> 96|<fax> im the worst person in the world 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i
01:02:52 <alise__> grep http://normish.nomictools.com/sgeo/quotes.txt
01:02:59 <alise__> 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
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01:03:03 <alise__> 154|<fax> sekuoir: that's just gay sex <sekuoir> I am learning though!
01:03:14 <Sgeo> alise__, what's with the spamminess
01:03:15 <HackEgo> 151|<Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
01:03:21 <alise__> Sgeo: boredom, going to bed soon, etc
01:03:22 <fax> `quote ehird
01:03:25 <HackEgo> 13|* ehird has joined #lobby <Madelon> hmmm clean me 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly. 30|<oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste 31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say In an alternate universe, ehird has taste 32|<ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the
01:03:32 <fax> `quote ehird
01:03:34 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
01:03:34 <HackEgo> 13|* ehird has joined #lobby <Madelon> hmmm clean me 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly. 30|<oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste 31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say In an alternate universe, ehird has taste 32|<ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the
01:03:52 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? 138|<ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? 139|<ais523>
01:03:54 <alise__> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
01:03:58 <alise__> 76|<Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
01:04:02 <alise__> 89|<Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
01:04:05 <alise__> 117|<Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
01:04:06 <fax> what's a round square copula
01:04:09 <alise__> 120|<Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
01:04:16 <alise__> 130|<virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
01:04:34 <HackEgo> 130|<virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
01:04:40 <HackEgo> 117|<Sgeo> I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed
01:04:43 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
01:05:05 <HackEgo> 97|<fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
01:05:19 * Sgeo should rewrite PSOX to be a weak erection
01:05:22 <alise__> Sometimes I think that bot has developed cogence.
01:05:34 <fax> im listening a philosophy lecture about existentialism
01:05:49 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
01:05:53 <HackEgo> 84|<Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see?
01:05:56 <HackEgo> 121|<fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
01:06:00 <HackEgo> 44|<zzo38> I am not on the moon.
01:06:03 <HackEgo> 45|<PoPSiCLe> ah... the biggest problem with great Norwegian hip hop lyrics is that they're completely impossible to translate
01:06:07 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
01:06:10 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
01:06:14 <HackEgo> 70|<pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
01:06:18 <nooga> i'm trying to invent even more hairy syntax for regular expressions
01:06:18 <HackEgo> 70|<pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
01:06:22 <HackEgo> 17|<GKennethR-L> :d <(I can lick my nose!)
01:06:25 <HackEgo> 149|<ais523> theory: some amused deity is making the laws of physics up as they go along
01:06:29 <HackEgo> 41|<Madelon> :D * Madelon has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
01:06:33 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
01:06:36 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
01:06:39 <HackEgo> 76|<Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
01:06:44 <HackEgo> 61|<fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
01:06:47 <HackEgo> 145|<apollo> Why couldn't we have just kept STD?
01:06:58 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
01:06:59 <nooga> can you please stop?
01:07:12 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
01:07:19 <alise__> not unless something interesting happens
01:07:20 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
01:07:23 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
01:07:34 <HackEgo> 80|<Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
01:07:44 <pikhq> oklopol is somewhat crazy apparently.
01:07:51 <Sgeo> `quote alise__ is actually getting on MY nerves now.
01:08:05 <HackEgo> 94|* oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
01:08:10 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
01:08:23 <pikhq> alise__: ... By our standards.
01:08:35 <HackEgo> 95|<fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
01:08:36 <fax> this neiztche thing is like a fucking self help
01:08:40 <alise__> worst say of fnording a taylor series
01:08:42 <Sgeo> `run echo -e "alise__, stop\nalise__, stop\nalise__, stop"
01:08:43 <HackEgo> alise__, stop \ alise__, stop \ alise__, stop
01:08:44 <fax> I didn't expect that
01:09:05 <fax> do you know about NARWHALISM?
01:09:14 <Sgeo> `run yes alise__ stop
01:09:15 <HackEgo> alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop \ alise__ stop
01:09:20 <pikhq> 43|<ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
01:10:01 <alise__> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
01:10:17 <alise__> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
01:10:21 <fax> I would like to go to the moon
01:10:43 <alise__> 135|<scarf> and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source <scarf> whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain <scarf> it's all falling into place
01:10:54 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
01:11:59 <alise__> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
01:11:59 <fungot> alise__: sounds similar to what you're doing
01:13:14 <fax> alise don't go
01:13:22 <pikhq> alise__: You sleep?
01:13:30 <pikhq> Only... Midnight there.
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01:47:00 <Sgeo> Oh, alise is still.. I think I forgot that I already saw that conversation
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06:44:18 <pikhq> 右翼 and 左翼 in Japanese are, literally, "right wing" and "left wing". And figuratively... "right wing" and "left wing".
06:44:26 <pikhq> Who's responsible for that calque and can I please punch them?
06:45:44 <pikhq> (I should note that 翼 means "wing" as in the body part on various flying animals, not as in a wing of a building)
07:03:56 <myndzi> it's probably a transliteration of the phrases from english
07:04:13 <myndzi> doubt they had equivalent words so it's just a literal translation that depends on understanding the figurative meaning
07:05:01 <myndzi> also lol @ moo/lambda, am i the only one who got it? :P
07:07:06 <pikhq> myndzi: Yes, that's what a calque *is*.
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07:50:38 <coppro> http://www.theonion.com/articles/geologists-we-may-be-slowly-running-out-of-rocks,17341/
07:51:01 <coppro> pikhq: I assume that the figurative meaning is in relation to politics?
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09:19:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried alise's bijector and now it seems to have taken all of the hard disc space.
09:20:15 <fizzie> You've been... bijected!
09:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that this happened because there was a massive bignum in virtual memory.
09:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ",[.,]" is 42860344287450692837937001962400072422456192468221344297750015534814042044997444899727935152627834325103786916702125873007485811427692561743938310298794299215738271099296923941684298420249484567511816728612185899934327765069595070236662175784308251658284785910746168670641719326610497547348822672277487
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10:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It also means that there is no number for which it decodes ++-.
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10:08:30 <fizzie> The NxN -> N part is still good, though; I guess you just need some sort of fixup for non-loopy strings? Admittedly I didn't follow to what the final result ended up as.
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10:40:36 <oerjan> um what was wrong with it?
10:40:48 <oerjan> wait i was just thinking about that
10:41:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking at the code I don't think it handles - at all.
10:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The first is to include the length of the tuple in the outer NxN.
10:42:18 <oerjan> i cannot help, someone is doing carpentry work outside the window, which is enough to turn my brain off instantly
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10:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Because f(0, v) = 2v, so all of the even numbers are the null tuple.
10:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately, you could make it f(<flattened tuple>, <length>)
10:43:35 <oerjan> i don't see how it can be wrong in that way you describe
10:45:15 <oerjan> no. i don't recall that the code i saw previously had that problem, assuming you fixed the lack of a 1+ in the list encoding
10:45:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so we're injecting a tuple {1, 2, 3, 4} as {1, {2, {3, {}}}}
10:46:13 <oerjan> yes. the thing is, you must add 1 to each tuple
10:46:22 <oerjan> i thought that had been corrected
10:46:40 <oerjan> because tuple bijection is between [0..] x [0..] <-> [0..]
10:47:09 <oerjan> the point is you must not let {} have the same representation as a cons cell, duh
10:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> But that relies on the way f behaves if you use it over and over.
10:48:18 <oerjan> um no that's a different problem
10:48:58 <oerjan> now look. it's a list, an algebraic data type
10:49:30 <oerjan> data [a] = [] | a:[a], in haskell
10:49:43 <oerjan> (incorrect but enlightening)
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10:50:05 <oerjan> that has _two_ branches, one for [] and one for :
10:50:19 <oerjan> they must be mapped to _disjoint_ sets
10:50:39 <oerjan> if [] is mapped to 0, then _no_ cons cell must be mapped to 0
10:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> But we need to demonstrate that if x_n+1 = cdr(f^-1(x_n)), the sequence hits 0 for all x_0.
10:51:18 <oerjan> right. but your problem at the moment was that you couldn't represent all lists. this fixed that.
10:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But we need to prove that every nat decrushes into a valid list.
10:51:29 <oerjan> incidentally it also fixes the other thing, though
10:51:57 <oerjan> yes. i have a proof, which is what i was thinking about before i came here now
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10:52:13 <oerjan> first, note that f(x,y) >= x and y
10:52:33 <oerjan> (i assume. it is easy to make an f with that property if you don't)
10:52:57 <oerjan> the tuple encoding, i presume
10:53:28 <oerjan> 2^x * (2*y+1), or possibly that triangle thing - both are fine for this
10:54:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that what you said is correct; f(u, v) >= u and v.
10:54:37 <oerjan> in which case, 1 + f(u,v) > u and v, right?
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10:56:20 <oerjan> now then, when you recurse, you get a strictly smaller number at each step. thus the recursion must terminate. QED:
10:56:47 <Rugxulo> they can encode Blu-Ray now
10:57:15 <Rugxulo> and didn't you see the big whining about how Jobs claims even Theora is going to be attacked over patents?
10:58:25 <oerjan> i said that, you need to assign [] and u:v as _disjoint_ sets.
10:58:50 * Rugxulo wonders why alise was messing with QBasic
10:58:52 <oerjan> the easiest way to do that and still use all Nats is to do [] -> 0 and shift (u,v) by 1
10:59:33 <fizzie> Rugxulo: It's a habit of his; we had one.. well, maybe not channel-wide, but multiple-people QBasic evening one day a while ago.
10:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I don't think you'd get 0, using alise's encoding...
10:59:42 <fizzie> Rugxulo: The HTMLized QBasic manual is from that time.
11:00:06 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but why not use FreeBASIC instead?
11:00:34 <fizzie> Rugxulo: For me, it was the semi-nostalgick aspect. Though possibly GW-Basic would have been even more so.
11:00:42 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Who knows why alise does anything?
11:00:46 <oerjan> you cannot get 0 from a finite list, naturally. you have (0,0) -> 0, after all, so it obviously gets infinite if you don't do the 1+ thing
11:00:56 <Rugxulo> ever heard of Jeff Vavasour?
11:00:57 <fizzie> It is an enigma wrapped in old newspapers, and smells of fish.
11:01:38 <Rugxulo> he wrote a (partial?) Breakout emulator in BASICA/GWBASIC/QBASIC
11:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So, map '-'..'.' to 1..6, then if it's a loop flatten it and add either 7 or 6?
11:02:12 <Rugxulo> Breakout (arcade game, which I think Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs worked on for Atari [!])
11:02:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, map '-' .. '.' to 0..6, and add 6
11:03:05 <Rugxulo> QB is okay, kinda old, but some impressive stuff was written in it
11:03:18 <Rugxulo> it's actually on MS' FTP site in OLDDOS.EXE, I think
11:03:21 <oerjan> well the encoding of the whole program is the same as the encoding of a single loop, minus the 6
11:03:43 * Rugxulo finds it odd that they *still* ship DEBUG.EXE, EDIT.EXE, EDLIN.EXE, but no QBasic
11:04:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ok right. that is a problem.
11:04:45 <Rugxulo> <ais523> probably in the future, storage will be voluminous and fast enough that people won't bother compressing at all
11:05:18 <oerjan> - is equivalent to the empty program.
11:06:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no it's not. the empty program is 0. - is 1, because we _still_ do the 1+ thing
11:06:42 <Rugxulo> <fizzie> Even the digital movies they distribute to real theaters aren't lossless; according to one article, they encode each frame as a separate JPEG2000 file
11:07:40 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Yes, and JPEG2000 can do lossless too; I just don't think they use it like that.
11:07:49 <oerjan> 1+f(5,1+f(2,1+f(6,1+f(0,0))))
11:07:50 <Rugxulo> <ais523> 12 I think, that's 640x480 (highest QBasic res, probably due to BIOS limit, but VESA can do higher)
11:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: So if we decons n and the cdr is one then we stop?
11:08:34 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I guess they might. "Motion JPEG 2000 (often referenced as MJ2 or MJP2) is the leading digital cinema standard currently supported by Digital Cinema Initiatives (a consortium of most major studios and vendors) for the storage, distribution and exhibition of motion pictures. -- each frame is an independent entity encoded by either a lossy or lossless variant of JPEG 2000."
11:09:05 <Rugxulo> and yet my (low-end) digital cam only uses .JPG format (not lossless, either, variable compression)
11:09:26 <Rugxulo> <AnMaster> ais523, know of any easy way to disassemble a file that is isn't an object file, just raw x86 instructions
11:09:38 <oerjan> yes. 1 <-> - as a program
11:09:52 <fizzie> Rugxulo: You're a bit late, since I suggested ndisasm there. :p
11:09:56 <Rugxulo> or distorm or BIEW (now called BEYE), IDA Free, etc. etc.
11:10:10 <oerjan> it is the command 1, followed by the program 0 which is empty
11:10:19 <Rugxulo> <ais523> AnMaster: The Windows program DEBUG.COM could do it
11:10:20 <fizzie> Rugxulo: He's partial to the AT&T syntax anyway.
11:10:30 <Rugxulo> first of all, not Windows, pure DOS, secondly it's 8086 only
11:10:48 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Yes, but it needed some flags. Say, shouldn't you read to the end before commenting?-)
11:11:13 <Rugxulo> perhaps need objcopy to binary first ("-Obinary"? I forget)
11:11:20 <Rugxulo> shouldn't I read to end? nah ;-)
11:11:25 <fizzie> Rugxulo: It needs objdump -b binary -m i386:x86-64 -d; that's not completely trivial.
11:11:54 <Rugxulo> well, he *could* run DOSEMU and any DOS-based tool there (including ndisasm)
11:12:34 <fizzie> I don't see why he'd run ndisasm in DOSEMU/dosbox, when it's available packaged in most Linux distributions. Anyway, it produces the wrong syntax.
11:13:01 <Rugxulo> although shame on him for not understanding / preferring Intel syntax
11:13:17 <fizzie> As for JPEG 2000, I don't think I've heard of any other real uses for it than digital cinema; it's very much different from plain JPEG, you know, being a wavelet-based thing.
11:13:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so that the representation of an empty list is different from a nonempty one
11:13:53 <oerjan> a nonempty list is essentially a tuple of car and cdr, but the tuple encoding has no extra room for the [] a list can have
11:14:12 <Rugxulo> <AnMaster> didn't have nasm around on that computer (so get it, pre-built even, at http://www.nasm.us)
11:14:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the _tuple_ encoding is [0..] x [0..]. if you don't add 1, there _is_ a tuple which encodes to 0.
11:16:56 * Rugxulo wonders why such a violently DOS-hating crowd would use QBASIC
11:18:00 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Where did you get the "violently DOS-hating" part from?
11:18:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 1. Swap the instructions '-'..'.' in BF with the numbers 0..6, and put any loops into their own tuples.
11:18:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: an _empty_ loop is not a tuple
11:19:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the thing is, the encoding for single commands is different from the encoding for sequences of commands
11:19:43 <Ilari> Motion JPEG2000? Might not yield the smallest files for given quality...
11:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So, wait, when we're uncrushing n, do we stop on 0-as-cdr?
11:20:02 <fizzie> Rugxulo: You must be talking about some other people than us, then. Admittedly a lot of us couldn't consider using DOS for usual day-to-day computing, but that's pretty far from doing "DOS-hating".
11:20:08 <oerjan> as a single command, a loop is just 6+whatever the sequence inside is
11:20:49 <oerjan> if that sequence is not empty, then it is 1+whatever its car,cdr tuple is
11:21:04 <fizzie> Ilari: It might be good for the particular quality level they're interested in. Or alternatively it could be just an accident of history that they settled on that format.
11:21:12 <oerjan> the car is encoded as a single command, but the cdr is encoded as a command sequence
11:21:52 <oerjan> the whole program is encoded as a command sequence
11:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> So for "++" you would take {1, 1}, then add one to get {2, 2}, then stick a 0 on the end to get {2, 2, 0}, then cons it?
11:21:58 <Rugxulo> fizzie: I get a fair bit of flack for ever mentioning (Free)DOS to some people
11:22:19 <oerjan> + is 1 as a command iirc
11:22:33 <Ilari> And if its lossless, the files are going to be very large... And as resolutions are high, the movies would be huge...
11:23:01 <oerjan> and no. adding 1 to the car before consing is not the same as adding 1 to the cons afterwards, which is what you should do
11:23:28 <oerjan> note that there is _no_ empty single command, so you _don't_ need to add 1 for those
11:23:40 <oerjan> instead you add 6 for embedded loops
11:23:41 <fizzie> Ilari: I seem to recall the article mentioning file sizes of around 200-500 gigabytes; I presume that was for the common 2K resolution (2048×1080), so you can guesstimate whether it's lossless or not from that. Probably not.
11:23:44 <Ilari> Trying to make mapping of bf programs to integers without gaps?
11:24:26 <oerjan> i don't recommend confusing the notation like that :D
11:24:44 <oerjan> {1,0} (the list) is 1+f(1,0)
11:26:31 <Ilari> fizzie: 200 gigs for sightly less than 2 hour movie would yield ~270Mbps. Which would be near-lossless with good codec.
11:26:33 <fizzie> Ilari: "Briefly, the specification calls for picture encoding using the ISO/IEC 15444-1 "JPEG2000" (.jp2) standard and use of the CIE XYZ color space at 12 bits per component encoded with a 2.6 gamma applied at projection, and audio using the "Broadcast Wave" (.wav) format at 24 bits and 48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling, controlled by an XML-format Composition Playlist, into an MXF-compliant file at a maximum data rate of 250 Mbit/s." 250 Mbps doesn't sound quite loss
11:26:33 <fizzie> less; that's only around 1.3 megabytes per frame.
11:26:54 <fizzie> I don't believe there's such a thing as "near-lossless".
11:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> And ",[.,]" -> {5, {4, 5}}, then work the {4, 5} out as if it was a standalone program, then add 6?
11:27:21 <Rugxulo> presumably the part that the human eye can't detect very well (which is JPEG's strong suit, right?)
11:27:45 <oerjan> this is all very elegant if you think of it as algebraic data types
11:28:06 <fizzie> Rugxulo: It's still JPEG 2000, not JPEG. But yes, that's the idea.
11:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: I find the whole thing to be the most elegant.
11:28:56 <Ilari> Sometimes one sees compression @ 270Mbps in order to pack HD video data for sending over SDI link. And that's with low latency requirements -> not as good compression.
11:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never seen any bijections between structured text and the nats before.
11:30:58 <oerjan> certainly, any algebraic data type should work, although the (0,0) <-> 0 infinite recursion problem _might_ crop up again if you're not careful
11:31:50 <oerjan> basically, whenever you have a type that consists of alternatives, you encode each alternative and then do something to the resulting numbers to make the results disjoint
11:32:07 <Ilari> Well, 250Mbps with Motion JPEG2000 is probably better quality than 270Mbps VC-2, since one doesn't have to lose quality for less latency. And 270Mbps is used for studio streams that must be of extremely high quality.
11:32:25 <oerjan> if one alternative is finite, put it first and the (0,0) problem disappears for that choice
11:32:29 <fizzie> Ilari: I don't know if they specify higher data rates for resolutions like 4K (4096x2160 or around that), though. That's a lot of pixels per frame.
11:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Which leads to the interesting if undesirable quality that all of the even numbers are in one column of the table.
11:35:07 <oerjan> as we noted before, that f encoding is really biased to blow up cars
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11:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But unless someone can think of an elegant deconsing of the triangular one, it's the best we've got.
11:36:27 <fizzie> Ilari: Now look what you did: you made me go peek at the DCI spec.
11:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The rows are all that other type of sequence where u_n+1=ru_n+a
11:37:07 <fizzie> Ilari: "However in the exclusive case to accommodate a 2K, 48 FPS, 12 bit DCDM to use [SMPTE 372M Dual Link HD-SDI] as an interface, it is acceptable, but not recommended, to allow 10 bit color sub-sampling to create the DCDM* at the output of the Image Media Block decoder. This bit depth reduction and color subsampling is only allowed in the single combination of a DCDM at 2K, 48 FPS being transported over a link encrypted SMPTE 372M connection."
11:37:35 <fizzie> oerjan: Sounds like a riotous function there.
11:37:50 <Ilari> "The data size of two hours movie amounts to 8TB."
11:37:53 <oerjan> fizzie: i _may_ have slightly punnified that sentence
11:38:02 <fizzie> Oh, that's just "may"?
11:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, it seems that all of the rows have the same r and a.
11:38:18 <oerjan> i admit nothing. NOTHING. ok, maybe a little.
11:39:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: is this still the 2^u*(2*v+1)-1 encoding?
11:39:39 <fizzie> If someone wants to worry about the triangular version, you could start with one of the formulas at http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A000217 -- that's the "first row" of the table of the triangular thing, so if you can easily map n into the largest one of those numbers, it's trivial to then get the actual coordinates.
11:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly there was only ~500M left on the HD, but still.
11:40:04 <fizzie> (After the references there's a big list of ways to compute them numbers.)
11:40:21 <oerjan> fizzie: it's the reversal that is the problem
11:40:37 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, but it gives many different things to attempt to reverse.
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11:40:48 <oerjan> it needs a square root, essentially
11:40:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's the one we're talking about
11:41:43 <oerjan> i suppose we could do newton's method approximated with bignum ints
11:43:37 <oerjan> An exponential generating function for the inverse of this sequence is given by ... and then something horrible
11:44:49 <fizzie> Yes, it's always a bad sign when functions start to get names of people.
11:45:46 <oerjan> this sequence by Triangle (and a bit Robert)
11:46:38 <fizzie> There's a book about generating functions with the title "generatingfunctionology" (all lowercase); I liked it because of the name already.
11:46:40 <fizzie> http://www.amazon.com/reader/1568812795?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
11:46:53 <fizzie> I guess the official name is maybe not lowercased, but that's the way the cover's printed.
11:47:20 <fizzie> (It was course literature on a discrete maths thing.)
11:47:54 <fizzie> Funny product description there. "One of the most important and relevant recent applications of combinatorics lies in the development of Internet search engines whose incredible capabilities dazzle even the mathematically trained user."
11:48:08 <oerjan> some concatenatingwordology there
11:48:19 <fizzie> It's like the numerical matrix course where the instructor started by talking about the Google matrix. Everyone wants to get on the Internet wagon.
11:48:35 <fizzie> Or is it "mathologists"?
11:49:23 <fizzie> Pathological mathologists.
11:50:00 <oerjan> the mathocalypse will not be nice. it will be very pretty, though.
11:51:19 <oerjan> hm if you want an f encoding that is balanced between x and y, you essentially get approximately square root demanded automatically
11:51:44 <oerjan> because [1..x] x [1..x] has size x^2
11:52:26 <oerjan> if you don't need it _that_ balanced...
11:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> The current cons causes us to get a 38218-digit number for the cat program.
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11:55:56 <Ilari> What cat program? Presumably something more complicated than ',[.,]'...
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11:57:04 <oerjan> compatible with 0 on eof
11:57:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ,[.,] still gives a number two orders of magnitude greater.
11:57:32 <Ilari> Hmm... Structure [[]], 5 segments...
11:58:13 <oerjan> each loop nesting blows up things with 2^... essentially
11:59:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's particularly irksome because I can't tell what could be in the lower numbers. It's basically all junk, I think.
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12:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it that hard to reverse the function? We've already *got* a mathematically elegant one, so can we just live with using sqrt?
12:04:32 <oerjan> well we can, it's just that sqrt on bigints isn't a common builtin function afaik
12:05:11 <fizzie> oerjan: GMP at least does square roots.
12:05:29 <oerjan> there's probably a haskell package for it
12:05:52 <oerjan> but basic sqrt in haskell is for floating point types only
12:06:57 <fizzie> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Generic_number_type says "The most efficient way is to call the native implementation of the square root of GNU's multiprecision library. (How to do that?) The most portable way is to implement a square root algorithm from scratch." and implements something iterative.
12:07:06 <fizzie> The "How to do that?" isn't especially helpful.
12:10:11 <oerjan> well i guess stealing that code may be an option :D
12:12:19 <oerjan> right that is newton's method
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12:14:01 <fizzie> There's also http://gmplib.org/manual/Square-Root-Algorithm.html but that's a bit specific to their particular representation of integers.
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12:16:03 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Generic_number_type#squareRoot but i wonder why the heck they recurse on squareRoot itself...
12:17:02 <oerjan> there is no f(0,0) at the end unless you actually have a car that is 0 there
12:17:30 <oerjan> (that - from before i presume)
12:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so at the end you decons and find that the car is the last element and the cdr is 0?
12:18:03 <oerjan> you _do_ subtract 1 before that decons, naturally
12:18:06 <Ilari> I think I figured out a way to reduce enumerating brainfuck programs to enumerating non-empty (ordered) trees... But how to enumerate ordered trees...
12:18:50 <oerjan> Ilari: why non-empty? the empty bf program is perfectly legal
12:20:00 <oerjan> i suspect that recursive squareRoot in there was added by someone who didn't know what they were doing
12:22:02 <Ilari> Actually, reducing problem of...
12:22:24 <Ilari> oerjan: Encoding empty brainfuck program would need encoding of tree containing just one node...
12:24:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, because the lowerRoot is supposed to be the initial estimate for the newton's method. if you use squareRoot to refine that estimate you never actually _finish_ afaict. not that i have run it.
12:24:31 <oerjan> but i am arrogant enough to edit that page, now
12:24:45 <Ilari> Well, if empty tree is included in enumeration, then one would need to know enumeration of it so one can skip it.
12:25:01 <oerjan> or wait it may hit squareRoot 1
12:25:07 <oerjan> let me check that again
12:25:52 <oerjan> now i understand it. scratch that.
12:27:45 <oerjan> it doesn't immediately divide by the highest 2^n, it divides by the highest 2^2^n, so it makes perfect sense to recurse to find lower powers of 2 that still divide it
12:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what are the algorithms for the triangular bijection?
12:29:46 <Ilari> Ordered trees meaning that 'x <- {x <- x, x}' and 'x <- {x, x <- x}' are different.
12:29:46 <oerjan> triang(u+v)+u where triang n = n*(n+1)`div`2; plus or minus any off-by-one errors
12:31:07 <oerjan> finding u+v is approximately a square root
12:31:40 <oerjan> multiply by 2 then take square root, except there might be some adjusting for that +1 in the product
12:33:12 <Rugxulo> all those quotes (recent log), too bad my B93 proggie only randomly prints 4 :-P
12:33:17 <oerjan> 1 -> 1, 2 -> 2, 3 -> 2, 4 -> 2, 5 -> 3, 6 -> 3, there has to be an off-by-something error in there
12:33:54 <oerjan> 1 3 6 10 15 21 ... are the triangular numbers
12:33:56 <Ilari> How many ordered trees of n nodes are there anyway?
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12:34:50 <oerjan> 0 1 3 6 10 15 21 ... are the triangular numbers
12:35:50 <oerjan> 0:(0,0), 1:(0,1), 2:(1,0), 3:(0,2), 4:(1,1), 5:(2,0), 6:(0,3)
12:36:53 <Ilari> Phantom_Hoover: The tree part of it would be 'x <- x <- x'.
12:36:56 <oerjan> ok that direction looks correct
12:37:53 <Ilari> Phantom_Hoover: Depicts node.
12:39:55 <Ilari> Ah, number of ordered trees with n nodes is C(n-1) (Catalan numbers)...
12:40:40 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you're not secretly clive gifford are you?
12:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Stephen Morley used the Catalan numbers to work out the no. of bits needed for a BF program of length n.
12:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Which set me thinking whether it would be possible to use that.
12:41:06 * oerjan sent a message involving catalan numbers to him last week
12:42:27 <oerjan> i know nothing about him being a journalist, it's the guy with eigenratios of self-interpreters
12:43:33 <oerjan> and i did a very crude estimate of such a ratio which ended up being the catalan numbers in one column
12:44:18 <Ilari> There are no contents in these nodes. It is representation of structure of the program.
12:44:35 <oerjan> i'm still waiting to hear back about my next refined estimate, i'm afraid it ruins one of his hypotheses so i hope he's not angry at me
12:45:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: basically if you have a self-interpreter for a programming language
12:45:28 <oerjan> and then you give it itself as argument, so it runs itself
12:45:43 <oerjan> and you give _that_ the self-interpreter as argument, etc.
12:46:29 <oerjan> then for some self-interpreters as you nest this, the running time gets slower in the limit by a constant factor each step
12:46:51 <oerjan> growing approximately like r^n
12:47:47 <oerjan> then r is the eigenratio. clive gifford has a blog about this: http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/
12:48:42 <oerjan> he's used matrices to calculate this ratio for some interpreters, the "eigen-" is because the ratio turns out to be an eigenvalue of that matrix
12:50:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: back to the bijection; i think multiplying by 2 and then taking square root gives either the floor of u+v or 1 more than it - i don't see a way to get either directly so there needs to be a postcheck for which one is right
12:51:15 <oerjan> well we start with n = triang(u+v)+u
12:51:30 <oerjan> so once we have u+v, u = n-triang(u+v)
12:52:35 <oerjan> that haskell link should work fine enough?
12:52:53 <oerjan> (i was wrong about that recursion being a problem btw)
12:53:31 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Generic_number_type#squareRoot
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12:56:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari: http://safalra.com/programming/esoteric-languages/bf/program-density/ is safalra's page on the lowest number of bits needed to represent a BF program. The use of the Catalan numbers in both can't be a coincidence.
12:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably not a coincidence or probably not not a coincidence?
12:58:18 <oerjan> xkcd is picking up these past couple of times...
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13:26:54 <Ilari> Assuming x <- x <- x encodes to 2 (and choosing operation enumeration order to be '+-<>,.'), i get that enumeration of ",[.[-],]" is 144 877 580...
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14:03:41 <nooga> who was norwegian?
14:04:20 <fizzie> He just left an hour ago.
14:04:28 <fizzie> Or maybe "an hour" is not "just".
14:05:31 <nooga> maybe he's sleeping
14:06:38 <fizzie> I'm sure you can find some Norwegians in a shop or something.
14:15:39 <nooga> Norwegians in Poland, in a shop
14:17:39 <fizzie> Well, maybe a local people-store can order them in?
14:20:54 <augur> i am reminded why Java is a horrible programming language
14:22:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Slave markets or some-such.
14:22:43 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
14:24:56 <augur> javanauts are a bunch of douches, basically.
14:25:46 <fizzie> Nautical Java, for ship automation.
14:26:02 <fizzie> What did Java do now that was so awful?
14:27:04 <Ilari> 0 -> '', 1 -> '[]', 2 -> '+', 3 -> '+[]', 4 -> '-
14:30:16 <fizzie> Ilari: I think you're going to have to give us a bit more detail on how exactly that goes.
14:31:48 <Ilari> I still need to figure out a way to enumerate non-empty ordered trees (so far the numbers are based on assumptions on that enumeration)...
14:32:28 <fizzie> Yes, but as a sneak-preview you could let us know how it goes, assuming you can enumerate those gaplessly and efficiently.
14:35:52 -!- alise has joined.
14:36:03 <alise> <pikhq> alise__: You sleep?
14:36:03 <alise> <pikhq> Only... Midnight there.
14:36:04 <alise> didn't sleep night past
14:36:15 <alise> s/all that colour junk (if you got it) and the blank line//g
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14:41:14 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> well, he *could* run DOSEMU and any DOS-based tool there (including ndisasm) <-- there is an issue here, why DOS at all. Also it seems likely that most DOS based tools are older than x86_64 with SSE4.1 (this code turned out to contain such instructions)
14:42:10 <AnMaster> btw, I wonder if it would be feasible to make an x86 program that were valid even when you remove the first byte, (and not making the first byte a nop or other such trivial variants)
14:42:49 <AnMaster> basically it would mean that both the program and a not-whole-instruction offset should be valid
14:43:38 <AnMaster> presumably would be easy for small programs, but preferably this should be some non-trivial thing that does something that isn't complete nonsense
14:44:42 <AnMaster> (and preferably it shouldn't just branch to different, unshared, parts of the code right away)
14:44:50 <alise> I was using DOS for QBasic.
14:44:56 <alise> Or was that another DOS conversation?
14:46:00 <alise> 01:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Grrr...
14:46:01 <alise> 01:19:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried alise's bijector and now it seems to have taken all of the hard disc space.
14:46:01 <alise> 01:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> For "[[[]]]"!
14:46:06 <AnMaster> alise, the thing rugxulo said? It was right in the context of quoting me on disassembling a file that wasn't in ELF or any other format (just "raw" instructions)
14:46:08 <alise> 01:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I shouldhave pastebinned that. Oops.
14:46:09 <alise> it probably got cut off
14:46:19 <alise> 01:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise's program isn't a proper bijection.
14:46:19 <alise> 01:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It encodes ++- and ++ the same.
14:46:28 <alise> I will fix it, I think.
14:46:33 <alise> I am going to change the bijection.
14:47:47 <AnMaster> google indicates it is a hair style(?), which seems quite improbably in this context
14:48:03 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo '++' | ./bifro encode
14:48:04 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo '++-' | ./bifro encode
14:48:16 <alise> AnMaster: A program I wrote last night; it well-orders the set of valid brainfuck programs.
14:48:24 <alise> Which also means every valid BF program has a corresponding number.
14:48:28 <alise> It can give you the number, and decode any number.
14:48:53 <alise> The encoding is somewhat suboptimal:
14:48:55 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo '[]' | ./bifro encode
14:48:56 <AnMaster> alise, as in, not all numbers are mapped
14:48:56 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo '[[]]' | ./bifro encode
14:48:56 <alise> 1180591620717411303424
14:49:02 <alise> and [[[]]] I don't think is calculable in this universe
14:49:04 <alise> AnMaster: all numbers are mapped
14:49:07 <alise> that's basically the entire point
14:49:11 <alise> otherwise it's "quite easy"
14:49:24 <alise> that doesn't handle []
14:49:31 <alise> which is the other "difficult" part
14:49:44 <alise> all I have to do is fix my NxN -> N bijection, anyway, and the numbers will be more reasonable
14:49:49 <AnMaster> alise, true, but those are not in the domain the function is defined in
14:49:54 <alise> but, I don't think oerjan has given me the inverse algorithm either :-)
14:49:57 <AnMaster> (problem solved in a cheating kind of way)
14:49:59 <alise> AnMaster: Well, yes, true.
14:50:08 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~/code$ echo ',[.,]' | ./bifro encode
14:50:09 <alise> 1581267603963364205878869896241541461324661326282360299663291859589299527874963647593440497667477535118649045814975093057732880760826511538023542187037019608761854877160674698159897716735103252665935684988068320848140683464255411707953932466009059033912578566502802887127604801681488301032705683661296923932091466727292944
14:50:21 <alise> This mess is caused because
14:50:22 <alise> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
14:50:22 <alise> biTo (u,v) = ((2^u) * ((2*v) + 1)) - 1
14:50:26 <alise> so obviously u gets very big
14:50:36 <AnMaster> alise, it isn't like it is a continuous function anyway, it is only defined for the integers
14:50:40 <alise> we encode loops with 6 + their crushing (6 is the number of non-loop instructions)
14:50:48 <alise> so we have some 2^ magic in every element of the loop
14:50:49 <alise> and get a huge number
14:51:03 <alise> AnMaster: naturals :P
14:51:13 <AnMaster> alise, what is the bf program 195722?
14:51:29 <alise> With the new fixed encoding that nobody else has seen before?
14:51:46 <alise> Well, the previous one is broken because it encodes ++ and ++- the same.
14:51:57 <alise> This one is broken because it's too huge but I need oerjan or someone to give me the inverse function first :P
14:52:01 <alise> $ echo 195722 | ./bifro decode
14:52:11 <alise> Loops are very rare; to understand why, consider that they take the form of 2^huge.
14:52:22 <alise> And even adding one instruction to a loop makes it unimaginably bigger.
14:52:53 <alise> To wit, consider the two progams ,[.,] and ,[.,,]
14:53:12 <alise> [-] is 128, nicely enough
14:53:17 <alise> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/943535.txt?key=wyaxhf87u5uvgzblwuxa
14:53:28 <AnMaster> alise, tell me what lostking is in this. I mean, number of digits in it
14:53:44 <alise> AnMaster: Calculating the log would be very hard, the expression would be very big
14:54:01 <alise> Considering even very small programs probably cannot fit into the universe and I run out of 2GB on even very very trivial programs,
14:54:06 <alise> I doubt it is feasible.
14:54:16 <alise> Anyway, with the triangular NxN -> N bijection it should be okay.
14:54:25 <alise> But I need to figure out (a) a canonical formula for it; and (b) its inverse.
14:54:26 <AnMaster> alise, what sort of programs use more than 2GB?
14:55:10 <alise> $ echo ',[>>>>>.]+[<<<<<<<<<<]' | ./bifro encode
14:55:13 <alise> I am pretty sure this will run out of memory.
14:55:15 <alise> Not certain, though.
14:55:22 <alise> I know that a <1kb rot13 did it.
14:55:26 <fizzie> alise: There in the logs is one oerjan-guess for how you can derive the inverse, assuming you can do sqrt on your bignums.
14:55:29 <alise> Oh, you want an EASY one?
14:55:34 <AnMaster> alise, what about nested loops? lets take something trivial [[-]-] or such
14:55:39 <alise> Certainly. Second.
14:55:43 <alise> AnMaster: yes, that's what i'm saying
14:55:45 <alise> it grows very quickly
14:56:13 <AnMaster> alise, yes, but what order of size is something like [[-]-]. ,I would guess it is still pastebinable
14:56:14 <alise> $ echo '[[-]-]' | ./bifro encode
14:56:15 <alise> 2521728396569246669585858566409191283525103313309788586748690777871726193375821479130513040312634601011624191379636224
14:56:15 <alise> Disadvantage; - is the lowest.
14:56:23 <alise> Not much more at all than that.
14:56:29 <alise> echo '[[[-]-]-]' | ./bifro encode
14:56:34 <alise> AnMaster: Do you want the code?
14:56:42 <alise> It has a proper CLI to use it and everything
14:56:46 <alise> Well, I don't know that it hangs forever
14:56:48 <AnMaster> alise, not really, it isn't a very useful bijection ;)
14:56:57 <alise> Hey, as long as you avoid nested loops...
14:57:03 <alise> http://pastie.org/942869.txt?key=vvwlyvvpwhxulduzur3q, anyway, one patch to make:
14:57:09 <AnMaster> alise, well, ',[>>>>>.]+[<<<<<<<<<<]' isn't nested
14:57:10 <alise> crush (x:xs) = biTo (x, crush xs)
14:57:14 <alise> crush (x:xs) = biTo (x, crush xs) + 1
14:57:17 <alise> decrush n = let (x,xsn) = biFro n in x : decrush xsn
14:57:18 <AnMaster> two loops sure, but not nested
14:57:20 <alise> decrush n = let (x,xsn) = biFro (n-1) in x : decrush xsn
14:57:36 <alise> ,[>>>>>.]+[<<<<<<<<<<] -- running now
14:58:12 <alise> Amusingly, decoding is very quick and encoding is very slow, even though the decoding iterates /2 on a number until it does not divide two any more, and the encoder is O(1) for a single instruction!
14:58:58 <AnMaster> alise, aren't most things O(1) for a single input operand
14:59:09 <alise> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
14:59:10 <alise> biTo (u,v) = ((2^u) * ((2*v) + 1)) - 1
14:59:10 <AnMaster> well, assuming you measure in the right way
14:59:14 <alise> biFro :: Integer -> (Integer,Integer)
14:59:15 <alise> biFro n = (m, (((n `div` (2^m)) - 1) `div` 2) + 1)
14:59:15 <alise> m = toInteger . length . takeWhile (\n'' -> mod n'' 2 == 0) $ iterate (`div` 2) n'
14:59:17 <alise> the m is basically
14:59:48 <alise> m = 0; while n' % 2 == 0 { m += 1; n' = n' div 2 }
15:00:05 <AnMaster> alise, I might be more interested when you come up with a mapping that gives "usable" results. With that I mean that lostkng should be possible to encode on something in this universe. Preferably something that isn't a super computer too ;)
15:00:39 <alise> 02:57:15 <Rugxulo> and didn't you see the big whining about how Jobs claims even Theora is going to be attacked over patents?
15:00:46 <alise> no, he claimed apple themselves are going after theora, iirc
15:00:56 <alise> AnMaster: LostKng - forget it, I imagine.
15:01:03 <alise> rot13? quines? sure.
15:01:15 <alise> AnMaster: One very interesting thing to do is to come up with an encoding-quine.
15:01:45 <alise> Make a program P such that P calculates (and preferably outputs) N, and number(P) = N.
15:01:58 <alise> A name tag for itself.
15:02:11 <AnMaster> alise, does such a program even exist?
15:02:22 <alise> By the fixed-point theorem, yes.
15:02:27 <alise> (The same theorem that guarantees that quines exist.)
15:02:42 <alise> Proof that such a program exists:
15:02:45 <alise> number(P) is certainly a computable function; therefore Brainfuck can compute it.
15:02:51 <alise> Fixed-point theorem; Q.E.D.
15:03:31 <alise> 03:00:06 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but why not use FreeBASIC instead?
15:03:38 <alise> No peeking 'n poking madness; no nostalgia; no good-ole-days-feeling.
15:03:56 <alise> 03:00:42 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Who knows why alise does anything?
15:03:57 <alise> 03:00:57 <fizzie> It is an enigma wrapped in old newspapers, and smells of fish.
15:03:59 <alise> The answer is "fish and chips"
15:04:02 <alise> "Old fish and chips"
15:06:33 <alise> 03:16:56 * Rugxulo wonders why such a violently DOS-hating crowd would use QBASIC
15:06:38 <alise> DOS is an interesting toy.
15:06:50 <alise> It is well-architecture for running programs in a simple language with full hardware access.
15:06:56 <alise> And compiling them (with QuickBasic).
15:07:47 <alise> Yes; for things like basic office applications it works but it badly architectured.
15:07:49 <alise> I guess games, it's good for, too.
15:08:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:08:11 <AnMaster> alise, idea: DOS C compiler + some asm routines, called peek and poke
15:08:40 <AnMaster> sure, but you have to admit that basic has it's downsides (so do C but meh)
15:08:41 <alise> it's even an advanced editor, factors procedures out into a menu and doesn't show them in the main program source (imagine it is called "main" and it all makes sense!)
15:08:55 <alise> QuickBasic doesn't have all that many disadvantages for DOS.
15:09:09 <alise> It's fast, it compiles proper programs, and it's a fucking awesome language for peeking and poking and whatnot.
15:09:14 <AnMaster> alise, and 640 kB is enough for everyone?
15:09:24 <alise> Hey, I'm explicitly meaning FOR TINKERING here.
15:09:37 <AnMaster> right, but sometimes you want to tinker with hundred of MB
15:09:44 <AnMaster> or is that no longer tinkering then?
15:10:36 <Ilari> alise: '[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]' is totally out of reach, right?
15:10:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: On x86-32, the bytes "05 00 00 00 00" are "addl 0, %eax", while "66 05 00 00 00 00" are "addw 0, %ax; addb %al, (%eax)". If you can make sure %eax points to something sensible and the lowest byte is nonzero, you can determine which variant was executed based on whether the byte at %eax was changed or not.
15:10:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since the only thing that can possibly be different is that first instruction, I don't think you can get much more of an effect than that; then it's up to you how to make the code do different stuff, by branching or by some less-cheaty means.
15:11:12 <alise> Ilari: Yes. It blows up loops and it blows up instructions even more.
15:11:20 <alise> Ilari: No fear; it'll be triangularised soon.
15:11:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, couldn't you get instructions that end in different places too
15:12:22 <alise> 03:40:48 <oerjan> it needs a square root, essentially
15:12:27 <alise> Won't floor(sqrt(n)) do?
15:12:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, of course, once they end in the same place they will be merged, no way around it
15:13:34 <AnMaster> (at least unless there is some strange flag you can set which might cause it to work out as different things)
15:13:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: I have a feeling that sort of stuff tends to get synchronized sooner or later. At least in my experience, even if you start a disassembly at a random spot, they tend to converge pretty fast. But yes, maybe if you're really really careful about selecting the instructions.
15:14:06 <fizzie> Any flag will cause the corresponding conditional branch/set/such do different things, but maybe that doesn't again count. :p
15:14:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed doesn't. I was more thinking about x86 vs. x86_64, where iirc INC → REX prefix and such things
15:15:06 <AnMaster> I think they either threw away or reused some of the BCD instructions too
15:15:21 <Ilari> Program starting with 'EB EB EA'. Jumps to offset 0xED from start even with first byte removed...
15:16:00 <AnMaster> I don't have a reverse lookup table handy
15:16:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, and with first byte removed?
15:16:42 <fizzie> http://ref.x86asm.net/coder.html is sorted by opcode if you need it.
15:16:57 <fizzie> And anyway, it was supposed to do a different thing when the first byte removed, not the same. :p
15:17:28 <AnMaster> also it doesn't need to be exactly 1 byte
15:17:50 <AnMaster> but some small whole-byte offset (less than the size of the first instruction)
15:17:54 <alise> 05:26:54 <Ilari> Assuming x <- x <- x encodes to 2 (and choosing operation enumeration order to be '+-<>,.'), i get that enumeration of ",[.[-],]" is 144 877 580...
15:17:59 <alise> but does it have a program for each nat?
15:19:12 <Ilari> That 144 877 580 is likely wrong... And each nat is guarenteed to map to some program. And I don't think any two map to same program. I don't have finalized ordered tree to nat mapping.
15:19:38 <alise> ya'll crazy bitches
15:20:29 <fizzie> Ilari: You also haven't told us how you map to ordered trees, so we can't look for bugs in that. :p
15:23:09 <Ilari> Recomputed, and got 144 744 582 this time...
15:23:15 <alise> It's nondeterministic!
15:23:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, and if you recompute again?
15:23:23 <fizzie> I can see how the structure gives the shape of the tree, but it's not immediately clear how you deal with what instructions are where.
15:23:41 <alise> Does it actually depend on the phase of the moon's minute changes?
15:24:13 <fizzie> The moon-men's minutes are a lot shorter than our human minutes.
15:24:21 <alise> Oh, Milner died! Sad.
15:25:25 <alise> data Nested a = Nil | Cons a (Nested a) | Nest (Nested a) (Nested a)
15:25:26 <alise> data Ref a = Val a | Ref Int
15:25:26 <alise> deblimp :: Nested a -> [[Ref a]]
15:25:35 <alise> I'mma finally getting down to the theory of deblimpification
15:28:47 -!- fax has joined.
15:28:51 <fax> hey alise how come you are here
15:29:39 <fizzie> "Who told you you can be here, huh?!"
15:29:42 <alise> heh I hate deblimping it's basically all one big corner case.
15:30:12 <fizzie> You Britons and your made-up holidays.
15:30:18 <alise> banks need holidays too!!
15:31:40 <alise> actually grr this is irritating.
15:31:40 <fizzie> We've got May 1st as a holiday, but this year it was on Saturday.
15:32:25 <alise> fizzie: whenever that happens to us we end up with a ridiculously-titled "holiday in place of [what we missed]" day
15:32:30 <alise> or whatever it is called.
15:32:46 <fizzie> How uncommonly fair of you.
15:32:49 <Ilari> I get that 144 877 580 decodes to '.[++[-].]'. I computed segment nats for ',' and '.' wrong.
15:33:08 <alise> fizzie: yes we brits are wonderful people.
15:34:14 <fizzie> Around here, whenever we miss a holiday because it lands on a weekend, we get a "sucks to be you" day, which is otherwise just like a regular workday, only worse in that you're annoyed because you've just missed a holiday earlier.
15:34:16 <nooga> we've got may 1st and 3rd
15:35:14 <alise> fizzie: how finnish
15:35:15 <nooga> alise: then explain 2 taps
15:35:25 <nooga> and windows that open TO THE OUTSIDE
15:35:33 <alise> Wait, you guys DON'T have 2 taps?
15:35:45 <alise> And why on earth would you want a window opening INTO your room?
15:35:54 <fax> alise, your data type can be expressed as the fixed point, X[a] = a + X[a] + X[a]*X[a] ?
15:36:05 <nooga> you can clean the window
15:36:13 <alise> nooga: from the inside?
15:36:16 <nooga> without leaving the room
15:36:26 <fax> this gives you a way to subdivide the isomorphism problem
15:36:28 <alise> windows don't exactly get all that dirty to need urgent cleaning so often that going outside is a pain.
15:36:58 <alise> basically I'm trying to theoreticise my underload compiler's main bit
15:37:00 <nooga> how am i supposed to wash a plate in boiling OR icy water
15:37:06 <alise> Underload has functions like (a(b(c)))
15:37:11 <alise> and we need to make these into cross-referencing functions
15:37:29 <alise> ((a)(bc)(d(e)f))g becomes
15:37:49 <alise> [ (1g) (234) (a) (bc) (d5f) (e) ]
15:38:34 <alise> for a long time we weren't really sure an underload compiler was possible -
15:38:42 <alise> this trick, + the "function data structure" made it possible
15:39:18 <alise> (function data structure = if you did (a)(b)* i.e. append b to a, then this got stored with the function pointers to a and b's code, as a cons list of sorts)
15:39:26 <alise> (same for (x)a -> ((x)), etc)
15:39:37 <alise> fax: so now I'm trying to writ out that blimp algorithm
15:39:40 <alise> which flattens the list
15:39:46 <alise> each number-pointer is a "blimp"
15:39:53 <alise> which means my function should be called blimp
15:40:17 <alise> each little () is a blimp
15:40:20 <alise> fax: you get the idea
15:42:08 <fax> sorry I totally don't know anything probably best just leave me
15:42:30 <alise> what didn't you get :(
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15:44:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes; but did not triangularise it.
15:44:26 <alise> will a patch do? only two changes
15:44:48 <alise> Change the two lines almost identical to these to the ones shown here:
15:44:49 <alise> crush (x:xs) = biTo (x, crush xs) + 1
15:44:51 <alise> decrush n = let (x,xsn) = biFro (n-1) in x : decrush xsn
15:45:02 <alise> Then recompile (ghc -O2 --make bifro.hs -o bifro)
15:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, did you fix the problem in the algorithm that caused it to return the same number for ++- and ++?
15:45:22 <alise> Yes; that is that fix.
15:45:44 <alise> Of course, since this ends up doing 2^(1+stuff) in for loops instead of just 2^stuff, everything is even more ginormous. :-)
15:46:23 <alise> 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127 -- result of - | -- | --- | etc
15:46:25 <Phantom_Hoover> For heaven's sake, does no-one have an algorithm for the inverse of the triangular bijection?
15:46:31 <alise> looks like odd numbers at first :-)
15:46:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, almost
15:46:54 <alise> 04:50:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: back to the bijection; i think multiplying by 2 and then taking square root gives either the floor of u+v or 1 more than it - i don't see a way to get either directly so there needs to be a postcheck for which one is right
15:46:56 <alise> 04:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And how do we derive u and v from u+v?
15:46:56 <alise> 04:51:15 <oerjan> well we start with n = triang(u+v)+u
15:46:56 <alise> 04:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
15:46:56 <alise> 04:51:30 <oerjan> so once we have u+v, u = n-triang(u+v)
15:46:57 <alise> 04:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
15:46:58 <alise> 04:51:40 <oerjan> and then v = (u+v)-u
15:47:04 <alise> just a matter of coding this up
15:47:10 <alise> now the question is, how do we do the post-check accurately?
15:47:59 <alise> what, for every single program :)
15:48:07 <alise> it is easy to check
15:48:25 <alise> because x^2 won't be precisely the answer we need, will it
15:48:31 <alise> like, we can't check that way
15:48:34 <alise> we really need oerjan to help us here
15:49:54 <alise> triang(u+v)+u where triang n = n*(n+1)`div`2
15:50:14 <alise> so ((u+v)*(u+v+1) `div` 2) + u
15:50:19 <alise> so (((u+v)*(u+v+1)) `div` 2) + u
15:50:26 <alise> We /will/ use precise parenthesisation!
15:50:37 <alise> "plus or minus any off-by-one errors"; says oerjan
15:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> How can the numbers get so big for simple programs?! Every number maps to a valid program!
15:51:48 <alise> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55]
15:51:49 <alise> [2,4,7,11,16,22,29,37,46,56,67]
15:51:49 <alise> [5,8,12,17,23,30,38,47,57,68,80]
15:51:49 <alise> [9,13,18,24,31,39,48,58,69,81,94]
15:51:49 <alise> [14,19,25,32,40,49,59,70,82,95,109]
15:51:50 <alise> [20,26,33,41,50,60,71,83,96,110,125]
15:51:51 <alise> [27,34,42,51,61,72,84,97,111,126,142]
15:51:53 <alise> [35,43,52,62,73,85,98,112,127,143,160]
15:51:55 <alise> [44,53,63,74,86,99,113,128,144,161,179]
15:51:57 <alise> [54,64,75,87,100,114,129,145,162,180,199]
15:51:59 <alise> [65,76,88,101,115,130,146,163,181,200,220]
15:52:01 <alise> here horizontal = increase second argument
15:52:03 <alise> vertical = increase first argument
15:52:05 <alise> that's the triangular
15:52:09 <alise> which exhibits quite good growth I think
15:52:12 <alise> I will plug it into my program
15:52:15 <alise> without fixing the other way around
15:53:10 <alise> *Main> crush (fst (parse ",[.,]"))
15:53:30 <alise> *Main> crush (fst (parse "[[[[[]]]]]"))
15:53:30 <alise> 213154541901809831953
15:53:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It can't be reversed /yet/.
15:53:42 <alise> I need to ask oerjan about the sqrt stuff first.
15:53:45 <alise> But wow, those are good results!
15:54:30 <alise> hello world is still huge
15:54:34 <alise> [3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,5354164073076684878196228396564020578803679189102849778525663731938902525444515224420427138133134637920836890782453088665839948145820092076713415549434307727405966835227032540083505526997209611299464854680212856949448028235011323804396384569956482164446390459797750748251474085517169113816957984439650500125963237364050624907522513416960323815412898338127406868607518044494986367473299784801918842103825814040773826020133025992246889415795
15:54:35 <alise> 35777677808436141814,2,5,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,89693062033816922605205825944,2,1,5,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,5,5,1,1,1,5,3,3,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,89693062033816922605205825944,2,5,3,3,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,14333536460712558084283567410257460820133224763596344172314303799578193610093108205094456521650228199838472126415141884581995334932340129379148477559707459959545576999778527755763656033545930008690570401539469908519542923093293866773152151477794528497181690063188383395045995
15:54:35 <alise> 1557447373818212334868702619287904919346690680502733198242627295679574194061355035703752923594385067469018029706561653941015792877680406733587246784406411632470943569135223195170725555329691921703375500895996752850629092483314008449940432238690371512189308188659696451544516606747397349661314807321205718172628988242893865139529255491147596410168400964451760816675236538504914109773983094253795888709666794010571089587049752395012003064486642816360910937797056
15:54:41 <alise> 693740451617167478378383875365441979920592376562008886469597656791896708701802207527665390314320715361945598862239045424492744590207542409271756177422324294118894451516811455159755859,2,0,0,0,5,2,2,2,2,5,1,1,1,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,3,3,1,5]
15:54:44 <alise> and that's just the list
15:54:47 <alise> we need to crush it after that
15:54:58 <alise> SO I PROPOSE that one, or both, of these things are true:
15:55:10 <alise> (1) Our list-crushing is crappy, and could be made better.
15:55:21 <alise> (b) Our representing-loops-as-crushed-lists-at-the-start is crappy, and could be made better.
15:55:33 <alise> I think (b) is more likely than (1).
15:55:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I dunno man
15:55:52 <alise> crush (x:xs) = biTo (x, crush xs) + 1
15:55:58 <alise> I think maybe cons-cell is wrong here
15:56:02 <alise> Maybe we could get it more efficient
15:56:12 <alise> the crush xs in the second biTo
15:56:17 <alise> depending on nesting
15:56:20 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> How can the numbers get so big for simple programs?! Every number maps to a valid program! <-- a) lots of possible programs b) define "simple" c) maybe some complex programs have a really simple number?
15:56:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's the issue :(
15:56:32 <alise> trivially can be checked
15:56:47 <AnMaster> alise, well, depends on how you define complex.
15:57:03 <AnMaster> in number of bytes? in terms of loops?
15:57:53 <AnMaster> alise, a nice bijection would be if you ended up with unpredictable number.
15:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: What about the idea you had before crushing loops?
15:58:06 <alise> crush [-5] == crush 2; interesting to see the behaviour for (not-meant-to-work) negative arguments.
15:58:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You mean put a nop instruction to signify []?
15:58:28 <alise> Yes, that would mean that all loops are additions, rather than crazies.
15:58:34 <alise> The translation would be harder, though :-)
15:58:50 <alise> [][] would be nop+N, nop, nop+N
15:59:18 * alise loads bifroexp.hs, and experiments
15:59:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of course this means I need my own nested list structure, bleh.
16:00:29 <alise> Oh wait I do not require that
16:01:12 <alise> ugh; you are correct.
16:01:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: we could map it to +++X+++, because X is technically a "valid" bf instruction
16:01:26 <alise> (but that is cheating)
16:01:34 <alise> and it would always be just after a loop, or just at the start/end of a loop
16:01:44 <alise> or even [nop]nop[nop]
16:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Make the instruction set only include nop when we're in a loop?
16:01:54 <fax> whats the point in turning programs into numbers?
16:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fax: If you need to ask the point, you haven't gotten it.
16:02:28 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: go listen to jazz
16:02:29 <alise> We have nops outside of loops
16:02:47 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:02:49 <alise> [][] -> nop+N, nop, nop+N
16:02:54 <alise> [x][y] -> x+N, nop, y+N
16:03:51 <alise> which is, basically, the issue.
16:04:08 <alise> we /could/ have tons of restrictions, but writing the bijection would be /very hard/
16:06:36 <alise> nop+N, nop, nop+N = [][]
16:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> How about changing the instruction set once we're in a loop, so that it's '-'..'.' in the base level and '-'..'.'+nop once N is greater than 0, then changing the increment of N accordingly.
16:09:09 <alise> like I have told you a million times
16:09:11 <alise> nop is valid outside
16:09:16 <alise> [x][y] = x+N, nop, y+N
16:09:24 <alise> nop also works as an adjacent loop separator
16:09:31 <alise> because [x][y] = x+N, y+N = [xy]
16:09:50 <alise> then how the fuck do you encode [x][y] and [xy] differently what's why introduced nop in the first place
16:10:00 <alise> that's the whole issue
16:10:28 <alise> that makes no sense whatsoever!
16:10:36 <alise> it's semantic junk
16:11:04 <alise> i just think it's a really silly idea
16:11:06 <alise> and doesn't help at all
16:11:11 <alise> because allowing nop in a loop anywhere
16:11:25 <alise> then nop+N,nop+N,nop+N = [] or [][]
16:12:46 <fax> alise be my friend
16:13:19 <alise> hey oerjan log-reading
16:13:21 <alise> istriangular:=proc(n) local t1; t1:=floor(sqrt(2*n)); if n = t1*(t1+1)/2 then RETURN(true) else RETURN(false); fi; end; (N. J. A. Sloane, May 25 2008)
16:13:25 <alise> we need a bijectin to all nats yo
16:13:32 <alise> or does the +u fix that
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16:14:56 <fax> T(n) = nC2
16:15:29 <fax> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Pascal%27s_triangle_5.svg
16:15:45 <alise> so T(u+v)+u = (u+v)C2 + u :P.
16:16:39 <fax> do you know an efficient way to invert that
16:16:52 <fax> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/d/8/fd8253a78f5f19c216b74278cd847bfc.png
16:17:01 <alise> 04:50:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: back to the bijection; i think multiplying by 2 and then taking square root gives either the floor of u+v or 1 more than it - i don't see a way to get either directly so there needs to be a postcheck for which one is right
16:17:01 <alise> 04:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And how do we derive u and v from u+v?
16:17:01 <alise> 04:51:15 <oerjan> well we start with n = triang(u+v)+u
16:17:01 <alise> 04:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
16:17:02 <alise> 04:51:30 <oerjan> so once we have u+v, u = n-triang(u+v)
16:17:02 <fax> that n^_k_ is from finite calucus
16:17:03 <alise> 04:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
16:17:07 <alise> 04:51:40 <oerjan> and then v = (u+v)-u
16:17:11 <alise> requires square root; so computing it requires checking the root is right and stuff
16:17:19 <alise> but, it's pretty computable
16:17:24 <fax> what about isqrt
16:17:30 <alise> I think oerjan planned on that
16:17:38 <alise> 04:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Any progress on the sqrt?
16:17:38 <alise> 04:52:35 <oerjan> that haskell link should work fine enough?
16:17:39 <alise> 04:52:53 <oerjan> (i was wrong about that recursion being a problem btw)
16:17:39 <alise> 04:53:31 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Generic_number_type#squareRoot
16:17:42 <alise> it's a matter of checking;
16:17:51 <alise> is this floor(sqrt(x)) or sqrt(x)+1
16:17:57 <alise> we need an algorithm to precisely do that
16:19:25 <fax> alise: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/bzfwz/fellow_programmers_even_if_your_vision_is_solid/
16:20:32 <alise> i have like 20/300000000000000000000000000000004 :|
16:20:58 -!- augur has joined.
16:21:15 <fax> hi augur 8D
16:22:21 <alise> augur 8D; that's some versioning scheme
16:22:40 <fax> oh a good day augur can exceed 8D
16:22:47 <alise> fax: anyway admire oerjan's lovely inversion
16:22:58 <fax> me too, i jut want to invert oerjan all day
16:23:01 <alise> it's totally elegant if you have an accurate floor(sqrt(x)) :P
16:23:23 <fax> alise - the bijection that uses unique factorization is much more clever though
16:24:52 <fax> of course it is quite useless computationally because 2^k grows so fast
16:24:53 <alise> i think multiplying by 2 and then taking square root gives either the floor of u+v or 1 more than it - i don't see a way to get either directly so there needs to be a postcheck for which one is right
16:24:59 <alise> so how do we know whether it's u+v is the question
16:25:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:27:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no.
16:29:14 <alise> but it does nothing :P
16:30:08 <fax> so what's the story
16:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, how often is the phrase "You need a (life|girlfriend)" uttered here?
16:33:56 <alise> not often, because nobody here has one
16:34:12 <alise> it's the loop "around" it that does
16:34:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not an instruction. It's just a syntactic marker.
16:34:54 * alise uploads a pdf explaining our triangular dilemma
16:34:57 <alise> http://filebin.ca/ogtqw/bij.pdf
16:35:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what's [x][y]
16:35:19 <alise> I guess we could encode that as [x][][y] because it's equiv
16:35:20 <alise> but that's not 1:1.
16:35:25 <alise> anyway, read the pdf guyz.
16:36:16 <alise> you fail at bijecting
16:36:22 <alise> because [x][][y] is a valid program too
16:36:29 <alise> and it's not the same~ (semantically yes, but syntactically no)
16:36:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wait, no
16:36:43 <alise> because you said nop = []
16:36:58 <alise> because you have to KNOW WHAT IT MEANS IN EACH CONTEXT; and be able to CONTROL which meaning it has at any time
16:37:05 <alise> because we have to /do all programs/, even equivalent ones, separately.
16:37:50 <fax> im listening to hungry eyes
16:38:47 <alise> let's think about the more interesting bijection! :P
16:38:51 <alise> and less frustrating
16:38:55 <alise> http://filebin.ca/ogtqw/bij.pdf
16:39:11 <fizzie> alise: If you didn't get the triangular one in functions correctly yet, here's one version courtesy of computers; it's a bit unsimplified, but you can rectify that: http://pastebin.com/8zH1iNS9
16:39:27 <alise> fizzie: Oh, so it figured out which will work?
16:39:40 <fizzie> (Mathematica does the table in a bit mirrored way, but other than that it seems to be working.)
16:39:40 <alise> Either ⌊ 2n ⌋ = u + v or ⌊ 2n − 1⌋ = u + v. So to implement ι(n), we need an accurate
16:39:40 <alise> algorithm to decide which to use, and calculate it, given only integers, rationals (without sqrt, I
16:39:40 <alise> think), and a pre-implemented sqrt for floating-point numbers.
16:39:46 <alise> either floor(sqrt(2n)) = u+v
16:39:49 <alise> or floor(sqrt(2n)-1) = u+v
16:40:06 <alise> fizzie: oh, you did not work out the inverse.
16:40:23 <fizzie> alise: How so? u[x] and v[x] give the inverse for x = f[u, v].
16:40:28 <alise> omg, it worked it out!
16:40:32 <alise> fizzie: I love you.
16:40:58 <fizzie> d[x] gives the index for how many'th diagonal x is from; that's what I asked it to Solve[] for me. u[x] and v[x] were written manually based on d[x]; those are simple when that is known.
16:41:07 <fax> I like these brackets
16:41:11 <alise> so floor(sqrt(2n)) is not even close!
16:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so now we have the sane bijection we can work on the BF<->tuple of natural
16:41:26 <alise> Does that work with integer sqrt?
16:41:31 <alise> i.e. normal integer sqrt
16:41:43 <fizzie> alise: Yes, I think so. I tried it with another Floor[] around the Sqrt[] itself.
16:42:00 <alise> and it gave the same results?
16:42:24 <fizzie> Yes, unless I screw up something.
16:42:29 <fizzie> In[7]:= d[x_] := Floor[(Floor[Sqrt[8*x+1]]-1)/2]
16:42:29 <fizzie> In[8]:= {u[#], v[#]}& /@ {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15}
16:42:29 <fizzie> Out[8]= {{0, 0}, {1, 0}, {0, 1}, {2, 0}, {1, 1}, {0, 2}, {3, 0}, {2, 1},
16:42:29 <fizzie> > {1, 2}, {0, 3}, {4, 0}, {3, 1}, {2, 2}, {1, 3}, {0, 4}, {5, 0}}
16:42:34 <fax> lol mathematica
16:42:57 <alise> where m = (floor(sqrt(8*x+1)) - 1) `div` 2
16:42:57 <alise> u = m - (n - to(n, 0))
16:43:04 <alise> fax: Hey, mathematica worked out d for him.
16:43:06 <alise> So it's coo in my book.
16:43:49 <alise> u[x_] := d[x] - (x-f[d[x], 0])
16:44:48 <alise> will Double work better for the sqrts?
16:44:50 <alise> more predictable...
16:46:01 <fax> what should I do
16:46:38 <fax> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
16:47:01 <fax> `fungot style
16:47:01 <fungot> fax: indeed. the ability to hack stuff like " fnord setup -l compiler" should work.
16:47:02 <Deewiant> You're not a good enough dancer; it won't do it for you
16:47:03 <alise> fizzie: hey you broke ified it
16:47:11 <alise> biFro :: Integer -> (Integer,Integer)
16:47:13 <alise> biFro n = (m - (n - biTo (m,0)), n - biTo (m,0))
16:47:13 <alise> where m = (floor (sqrt (8 * fromInteger n + 1) :: Double) - 1) `div` 2
16:47:58 <alise> floor (sqrt (8*1+1)) = 3;
16:48:12 <alise> then we get ridiculous things involving 1 -
16:48:20 <alise> fizzie: I bet floor around the sqrt doesn't really work.
16:48:39 <fizzie> alise: It does work. I assume your biTo isn't exactly my f[u, v] there.
16:48:50 <alise> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
16:48:51 <alise> biTo (u,v) = triang (u+v) + u
16:48:51 <alise> where triang n = n * (n+1) `div` 2
16:49:09 <alise> make it +u and ask mathematica again?
16:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> When I am in charge spammers will be hunted and slowly tortured.
16:49:28 <fizzie> Why don't you just make it +v there? I'm making food right now. :p
16:49:49 <fizzie> Alternatively, swap u/v; it shouldn't affect u+v, after all.
16:50:05 <fizzie> That is, ask for biTo(0, m) there.
16:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I *think* I've got a coding that doesn't increase exponentially.
16:50:43 <alise> fizzie: Set up a mathematica bot, dammit.
16:51:24 <Deewiant> alise: I can type it into Mathematica if you tell me what to type :-P
16:51:39 <alise> Wolfram Alpha fails at life
16:51:43 <alise> Um I think we need to be solving like a function
16:52:01 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:52:51 <alise> Yay, it works now.
16:53:41 <alise> $ echo ',[.,]' | ./bifroexp encode | ./bifroexp decode
16:53:48 <alise> Interesting! Interesting but incorrect!
16:54:05 <alise> Deewiant: Solve[f[((u+v) * (u+v+1))/2 + u] = u+v, f] or something, I guess.
16:54:10 <alise> Deewiant: Solve[f[((u+v) * (u+v+1))/2 + u] == u+v, f] or something, I guess.
16:54:13 <fax> hey alise you're doing it wrong
16:54:27 <fax> type Bijection a b = (a -> b, b -> a)
16:54:37 <alise> fax: yeah yeah shut up.
16:54:48 <Deewiant> alise: There's an infinite number of solutions to that, you can't solve for a function :-P
16:55:04 <alise> Deewiant: Solve[x == u+v, x] or something, I guess.
16:55:08 <alise> fax: that just makse the code more cluttered
16:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: How are you encoding the program into tuples of naturals?
16:55:26 <alise> Deewiant: I am sure it can solve functions.
16:55:31 <fax> alise you don'tknow anything about code clutter
16:55:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
16:55:42 <alise> fax: see, this is why i don't like you ^
16:55:53 <Deewiant> alise: Fine, I humoured you: it gives "{{}}" i.e. there are infinite solutions.
16:55:56 <fax> alise - I was trying to thelp you and you just tell me shut up
16:56:08 <alise> I know there is some sort of function solver.
16:56:13 -!- augur has joined.
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16:56:19 <alise> Well, http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/RSolve.html...
16:56:32 <alise> f[((u+v) * (u+v+1))/2 + u] - (u+v) == 0
16:56:33 -!- augur has joined.
16:56:44 <fax> why is everyone such a dick
16:56:56 <alise> "<useless advice>" "that doesn't help in this case"
16:57:02 <alise> "you don't know anything about <subject>!"
16:57:13 <fax> that doesn't help in this case???
16:58:01 <alise> Deewiant: Fine then,
16:58:07 -!- lereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:58:14 <alise> f[u_,v_] := ((u+v) * (u+v+1))/2 + u;
16:58:20 <alise> InverseFunction[f]
16:58:20 <fax> why do I even come here everyone hates me or ignores me
16:58:36 <alise> fax: God dammit shut the fuck up; you were a jerk to me. Simple as.
16:58:57 <alise> grr, inversefunction only works on 1-adic functions
16:59:07 <alise> * InverseFunction is generated by Solve when the option InverseFunctions is set to Automatic or True.
16:59:10 <fax> you think you are so smart because you didn't grow up around people of the same age that were smarter than you
17:00:10 <alise> dear fax; you are batshit insane, insult people when they reject your useless advice, deny irc lines that clearly did happen, whine when people talk to you, ignore people then whine when people ignore you, and insult people's intelligence just because they did some random thing that annoys you.
17:00:15 <alise> just stop it. FFS.
17:01:12 <fax> sorry but I have written highly non-trivial haskell programs and I have been programing for years. I think if you took my advice you could learn something. Is that arrogant? To think I have actually learned something from years of experience?
17:01:45 <alise> So one day you claim "Haskell sucks it is too hard I don't know how to structure programs properly in it"
17:01:51 <alise> the next is "I AM EXPERT HASKELL PROGRAMMER".
17:01:57 <alise> Anyway, of course I have used that bijection structure before.
17:02:06 <alise> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
17:02:07 <alise> biTo (u,v) = triang (u+v) + u
17:02:07 <alise> where triang n = n * (n+1) `div` 2
17:02:07 <alise> biFro :: Integer -> (Integer,Integer)
17:02:07 <alise> biFro n = (m - (n - biTo (0, m)), n - biTo (0, m))
17:02:08 <alise> where m = floor (((sqrt (8 * fromInteger n + 1) - 1) / 2) :: Double)
17:02:09 <alise> How the ROYAL FUCK does it help here?
17:02:14 <alise> It would just be (to, fro)
17:02:17 <alise> because from references to, anyway
17:02:18 <fax> are you aware that it is an open research problem I was talking about when I said I didn't know how to structure that program?
17:02:19 <alise> so it needs to be bound
17:02:28 <alise> you said it about a general case
17:02:53 <fax> oh suddenly I exist, isn't that convenient
17:03:10 <fax> lets just stop arguing about this
17:03:13 <alise> I think we're getting pretty solid evidence that fax is actually mentally ill here.
17:04:11 <alise> fax: Considering my program has only one bijection in it, and one half of the bijection references the other, it would have to look like
17:04:32 <alise> Since in fact they both have extra bound definitions, the things they use would be tangled together
17:04:34 <alise> the whole thing would be uglier
17:04:37 <alise> and for no reason whatsoever.
17:04:55 <fax> alise: okay alise if you think you are doing the right thing by all means - don't let me get in the way. You don't have to be nasty about it thoug, I was trying to be constructive
17:05:15 <alise> <fax> type Bijection a b = (a -> b, b -> a) <alise> fax: that just makse the code more cluttered
17:05:35 <alise> Yes, I said "yeah yeah shut up :P" before it, which was quite clearly in jest (I thought you were mentioning the fact that
17:05:40 <alise> I used that structure once before and you inquired as to its point.)
17:06:05 <alise> Deewiant: Not always.
17:06:29 -!- MizardX- has joined.
17:07:09 <alise> Well, fuck you too :)
17:07:35 <Deewiant> Hey, you've admitted in the past :-P
17:08:08 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:08:27 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
17:08:34 <alise> Deewiant: I'm an asshole, in general; but not nasty, in almost-all specific cases.
17:08:40 <alise> I'm just nasty often.
17:08:54 <alise> I don't really care though, fax has done his fair share of nastiness to me yesterday and today, so
17:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> We still need a) a saner bijection and b) a coding that doesn't go mad on loops.
17:09:18 <fax> alise, in retaliation
17:09:22 <alise> We have that bijection, Phantom_Hoover.
17:10:12 <alise> Yep, just implemented it now.
17:10:15 <alise> Just change +u to +v.
17:10:27 <fax> I just want everyone to be nice to me
17:10:36 <fax> unconditionally
17:10:46 <alise> $ echo ',[.,]' | ./bifro encode | ./bifro decode
17:10:52 <alise> fax: See, that is the problem.
17:11:00 <alise> You cannot be nasty to someone else then expect them to be lovely to you.
17:11:04 <alise> People are not Jesus.
17:11:10 <fax> I wasn't being nasty to anyone
17:11:23 <alise> I beg to differ, so I'm not even going to bother responding any more.
17:11:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 85492
17:11:44 <fax> I've got a better bijection than you guys
17:11:57 <alise> $ echo ',[,[-[++]].]-[[[++]+]+]' | ./bifro encode
17:11:57 <alise> 56046302675444742920145996600032729174513643271562716998685181
17:12:09 <alise> it still croaks on hello world iirc
17:12:23 <fax> program n = (filter balanced . generate $ ",.+-<>[]") !! n
17:12:28 <fax> the inverse is trivial
17:12:35 <fax> just a lookup table
17:12:42 <alise> yeah hello world hangs it for no reason
17:12:49 <fax> learn to read code
17:13:00 <fax> yes it does
17:13:04 <fax> my word against yours
17:13:07 <alise> no, because you might end up with
17:13:13 <fax> that's valid
17:13:15 <alise> [...every program...]
17:13:30 <fax> wrong it generates every program in finite time
17:13:37 <fax> generate is just n-ary counting
17:13:41 <alise> that's nice; anyway btw you're being a jerk now
17:13:46 <fax> 16:13 < alise> that's nice; anyway btw you're being a jerk now
17:13:55 <fax> ^ just admitted that he god pwnd
17:14:05 <alise> no, I just don't think it is nearly a good a bijection
17:14:23 <fax> alise: YOU ARE THE ONE BEING A JERK
17:14:26 <alise> anyway, fax is talking right now solely for the purpose of trying to annoy me right now, so
17:14:32 <alise> time to figure out how you ignore in xchat.
17:14:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hello world still hangs it
17:15:06 * alise considers running dbfi through it!
17:15:11 <fax> You are the kind of low tier human that has to tell other people what they are so that you believe it yourself
17:15:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, what is your nested encoding?
17:15:24 <fax> you are calling me a jerk over and over because you don't want to admit that you are the one being horrible
17:16:10 * alise logreads to find out what fax's response to his ignoring her was; decides not to logread for such purposes any more
17:16:24 <alise> Now on to things that aren't about crazy people.
17:16:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
17:16:31 <alise> that's the basic issue
17:16:32 <fax> You guys are stupid, I can't beleive you've spent 2 days on this and I wrote it in one line of code
17:17:00 <fax> and the only way you can justify your termoil and excessive fail is by pretending it's not elegant
17:17:03 <Deewiant> Your one line includes two undefined identifiers
17:17:12 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: Fuck you. You're a fucking wanke
17:17:18 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: what the fuck would you know
17:17:22 <Deewiant> And presumably runs a fair bit slower than the one the others've got
17:17:40 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: I hope you have a heart attack, fuck you
17:18:22 <fax> fucking pathetic simple minded idiots
17:18:35 <fax> alise calls me a jerk and ignores me, therefore I must be a troll
17:18:57 <fax> seriously this is like reddit
17:19:01 <fax> this channel
17:21:08 <Ilari> Hmm. LostKng has 20963 loops...
17:22:55 <pikhq> Ilari: How far does it nest?
17:24:21 <alise> Especially considering it was compiled
17:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you tried just leaving HW to encode for a few hours?
17:27:22 <alise> hmm... now /I/ feel an urge to write a BASIC->BF compiler
17:27:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No; considering that the translation just ends up being simple recursion plus a lot of lot of arithmetic, it is almost certainly memory allocation it hangs on.
17:27:49 <alise> By which token, it's either very, VERY big, or too big.
17:28:09 <alise> It's loops that do it.
17:28:27 <fax> I don't know why everyone is so nasty
17:28:40 <alise> I wonder what the state-of-the-art is in constant string -> BF to generate it.
17:29:01 <fax> I know you are struggling alise but I know you are strong enough not to have to take it out on me
17:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> And I think HW could be optimised for this by eliminating loops.
17:30:07 <alise> http://pastie.org/943767.txt?key=qjqgkkxho8wjgybmhdww
17:30:32 <alise> I like how we rely on real arithmetic being at least SLIGHTLY accurate.
17:30:39 <alise> It's such an... amusingly inaccurate assumption.
17:30:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: A hacked-together decision tree compiler? Why, that's *my* effort at doing a text adventure game in Brainfuck!
17:31:12 <pikhq> Oh, and I should note: Yes, I wrote it. No, I do not have a game for it. Just the engine. :P
17:31:24 <Ilari> I estimate that with the enumeration I'm trying to figure out, enumeration of LostKng would be around 2^153 000 000 (assuming enumeration of structure encoding is low)...
17:32:28 <alise> "I do know that the halting problem is unsolvable in general, but I was not sure whether there did not exist special case exceptions. Like, maybe Matlab might function as a Super Turing machine able to determine the halting of the bf program."
17:32:36 <alise> "SECOND EDIT: I have written what I purport to be infinite loop detector. It probably misses some edge cases (or less probably, somehow escapes Mr. Turing's clutches), but seems to work for me as of now. In pseudocode form, here it goes:"
17:33:27 <alise> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367571/detecting-infinite-loop-in-brainfuck-program
17:33:37 <alise> "I have created a truly marvelous program to do this, which this textbox is too narrow to contain." --comment
17:34:15 <fax> that joke is so old it makes me physically sick hearing it
17:35:29 <Deewiant> Hmmh, ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++] encodes to a 3.2 million digit number.
17:35:44 <Ilari> I estimate between 46 020 000 and 46 030 000 base-10 digits...
17:36:04 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/SYFg
17:36:10 <pikhq> That was some fun code 3 years ago.
17:37:03 <pikhq> Pity I never made it into an actual game.
17:37:28 <pikhq> (oh, yes, if you want the source I can tarball it up)
17:38:27 <alise> pikhq: hey, you could implement basic with pebble
17:38:33 <alise> write the basic primitives as pebble macros
17:38:40 <alise> use tcl to read code from stdin, translate to pebble primitives
17:38:40 <pikhq> alise: It would be quite feasible.
17:39:00 <pikhq> PEBBLE is sufficiently high-level to make targetting it not a pain.
17:39:30 <pikhq> Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh?
17:39:46 <pikhq> It's a macro language for Brainfuck I wrote a few years back.
17:40:29 <alise> Hey, gosub/return is easy with computed gotos, which is easy with the standard method of BF labels.
17:41:10 <alise> GOSUB x := Put (CURRENT LINE), which we know at compile-time, somewhere global; GOTO x
17:41:16 <alise> RETURN := GOTO (GLOBAL PLACE)
17:42:46 <alise> ("Line numbers" would just be labels, really, since you'd want to normalise them anyway.)
17:43:35 <Deewiant> Gah, I might run out of memory on ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>]
17:46:16 <alise> consider that for any nested data type
17:46:27 <alise> we can assign a constant C_n to all n non-nesters
17:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> For all languages in which the syntax is equivalent to a nested list of nats?
17:46:40 <alise> then, say the thing has one nester
17:46:43 <alise> with only one argument, the nester
17:46:52 <alise> represent this as {nested}
17:47:01 <alise> this produces an arbitrarily nested list of nats
17:47:04 <alise> apply the bijection; Q.E.D.
17:47:19 <alise> more than one nester: set the constants such that they are all, say, even
17:47:25 <alise> then make one nester have all its subterms odd, and the other even
17:47:55 <alise> gee, what about jot! wait.
17:48:34 <alise> 09:38:03 <Phantom_Hoover> >>[-]<<[->>+<<] > 4*10^1185
17:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> But you get something much smaller if you don't double the moves.
17:50:51 <Deewiant> Yay, ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>] finished
17:51:22 <Deewiant> Nah, I just piped it into wc :-P
17:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Bifro should ideally have the capacity to write the number in base 256 with a string of bytes.
17:52:36 <Deewiant> Your decoder is broken, btw; probably the double-cast
17:52:49 <fax> what's the point of putting brainfuck programs in bijection with natural numbers?
17:52:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
17:53:09 <Deewiant> "What's the point" is rarely a sensible question on this channel
17:53:09 <pikhq> Every string of 0 and 1 is valid, including the empty string.
17:53:21 <pikhq> fax: Putting Brainfuck programs in a bijection with natural numbers.
17:53:35 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
17:53:57 <pikhq> Jot is intended as a Goedel numbering. :)
17:54:38 <pikhq> *Just use the freaking number*.
17:54:51 <alise> <Deewiant> Your decoder is broken, btw; probably the double-cast
17:55:20 <alise> Deewiant: what would you propose then
17:55:33 <Deewiant> alise: A custom sqrt that works on Integer.
17:55:42 <alise> Deewiant: Bah, okay.
17:55:48 <alise> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Generic_number_type#squareRoot
17:56:25 <alise> (^!) :: Num a => a -> Int -> a
17:56:31 <alise> oh, for type specification
17:57:47 <alise> Deewiant: Can I use isqrt? There's a /2.
17:57:52 <alise> And I am not sure the result is always divisible by two.
17:58:01 <Deewiant> ++++++++++[>+++++++] at least comes out correctly now.
17:58:18 <Deewiant> alise: Wasn't it being floored? `div` 2
17:58:25 <fax> alise: i can't beleive you are talking this long to solve a quadratic equation. lol
17:58:33 <alise> Deewiant: gimme a number that didn't work
17:58:49 <Deewiant> alise: It works now, I already copied squareRoot into it myself.
17:58:51 <Ilari> Well, that was too optimistic estimate. But I estimate that Lost Kindom encodes to less than 10^(10^8)...
17:59:28 <alise> Deewiant: Do you think that I should change how loops are encoded?
17:59:29 <Deewiant> 'K8'@*+'E28'@**+'%2'@f2+**+"I$@"*+"/KHQa"738*+345'@**+*****+****
17:59:30 <alise> I'm just not sure how.
17:59:45 <alise> Ilari: Reassuring to know
17:59:53 <Deewiant> I think you should if you find a way to ;-)
17:59:54 <alise> It's less than a googolple, at least
18:00:15 <alise> This program has rekindled my love affair with Haskell.
18:00:21 <alise> (Is it a love affair if you don't have any other partners?)
18:00:36 <alise> ((This applies in both the programming and otherwise meanings.))
18:00:54 <alise> Come back up, pastie!
18:00:56 -!- adam_d has joined.
18:00:57 <alise> I need to deliver version 4!
18:01:04 <alise> Off by one there :D
18:01:16 <alise> Version three, guyz: http://pastie.org/943801.txt?key=uwdomh4k9krj16tc9ezw
18:01:19 <alise> Update your copies.
18:02:52 <alise> ++[+[+[+[+[++++]+]+]+]+]++ generates a 6264 digit number
18:03:26 <alise> loop xs = crush xs + 6
18:03:32 <alise> loop xs = crush (map (+ 6) xs)
18:03:37 <alise> would this work, I wonder?
18:03:43 <alise> eh, [] would = [[]] :/
18:03:50 <alise> Deewiant: Oh, I forgot echo -n
18:04:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is it?
18:04:05 <alise> wait [] would not = [[]]
18:04:14 <alise> crush [] = 0; [0] = 1+biTo(0,0)
18:04:18 <Deewiant> alise: That won't help unless you meant echo 'brainfuck' | echo -n $(foo encode) | wc -c
18:04:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely increasing pre-crush means that the crushed list is much larger?
18:04:31 <alise> Deewiant: that's what i meant
18:04:42 <alise> $ echo butt | ./bifro encode
18:04:42 <Deewiant> Which actually doesn't work, that's interesting
18:04:46 <alise> (actually via terminal but)
18:04:53 <alise> echo, paste, | wc -c
18:05:06 <Deewiant> Oh, right, need to wrap the whole thing *duh*
18:05:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm... maybe, yeah.
18:05:36 <Deewiant> alise: You know you can pipe the output of a program without having to copy-echo-paste :-P
18:05:47 <alise> Deewiant: I know, I just forgot the first time.
18:05:49 <alise> Wanted to see what it'd look like.
18:05:58 <alise> Huh, these numbers often repeat.
18:06:04 <alise> Lots and lots of 77s and 777s in that progam's number
18:06:07 <alise> Then again, lots of 88s too
18:06:13 <alise> Maybe they just repeat naturally, or maybe it's just a coincidence.
18:09:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there any limit to the languages this can represent?
18:11:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
18:11:20 <alise> It cannot represent the language of love.
18:11:37 <alise> Apart from that, uh, the reals? But we can't construct the reals so it'd be pointless to apply such an algorithm to them.
18:11:50 <alise> But anything countable, which is... all programming languages?, yes, has a bijection to the naturals. By definition.
18:12:31 <alise> Well... I don't know. It would have to be changed in all cases; sometimes minorly, sometimes it might be completely unrecognisable.
18:12:35 <alise> So it's hard to answer.
18:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> The syntax needs to be representable using nested lists, I think.
18:14:07 <alise> Yes, the only problem is the multiple nesting case.
18:14:12 <alise> But I am sure you can do that as something.
18:14:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:14:29 <alise> like instead of just [] {} too
18:14:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Client Quit).
18:14:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
18:15:55 <alise> Yes, but it's just a question of "how do you represent it" because lists only have one type of nesting.
18:16:03 <alise> say all instructions are even
18:16:09 <alise> then one type of loop would increase so that it's even
18:16:12 <alise> another would increase so it's odd
18:16:17 <alise> then you can identify which, I think
18:16:47 <alise> odd_naturals[crush(looptype1)] + N
18:16:51 <alise> even_naturals[crush(looptype2)] + N
18:16:58 <alise> (with some munging so that all naturals are covered by this)
18:17:17 <alise> repeat with similar spacings for all M types of loop
18:17:19 <alise> or, well, nesting in general
18:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> Incidentally, have we proven that, taking g(n) to be the triangular cdr, the recurrence relation u_n+1=g(u_n) ends up at 0 for all u_0?
18:18:47 * alise 's brain flags up "LOOKS LIKE COLLATZ BE SCARED"
18:18:50 * alise shuts up stupid heuristics
18:19:02 <alise> As in "snd (biFro (n-1))"?
18:19:07 <alise> Or "snd (biFro n)"?
18:19:22 <alise> Assuming the latter,
18:20:03 <alise> this simplifies to (n - biTo ((isqrt (8*n+1) - 1) `div` 2))
18:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> Whatever, it just needs to be shown that we get a finite list from all n.
18:20:24 <alise> ehh, I'll just code it an test it empiraclly
18:20:29 <alise> that's the best way to prove anything
18:20:37 <alise> is this to check that all numbers give a finite program?
18:21:28 <alise> Of course, but I can be reasonably sure of something!
18:21:32 <alise> It's the lazy-fucktard's way of proving something.
18:22:02 <alise> Well, u_0 = 0 falsifies it.
18:22:14 <alise> But we special-case 0 in the recursion, so nyah.
18:22:15 <alise> But ignoring /that/,
18:22:22 <alise> -- uh, I really should make it stop on 0s
18:22:56 <alise> *Main> ulist 10000
18:22:57 <alise> *Main> ulist 100000
18:22:57 <alise> [100000,319,19,4,1]
18:23:08 <alise> Ooh, I should use quickcheck!
18:23:19 <Deewiant> And smallcheck! And lazy smallcheck!
18:23:36 <alise> Why instead of QuickCheck!
18:23:55 <Deewiant> I said "and" not "instead of"!
18:24:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: YOU JUST CAN'T HANDLE EMPIRICAL MATHEMATICS
18:24:14 <alise> Deewiant: You do it!
18:24:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Uh, there is actually.
18:25:13 <alise> You can get more confidence in a proposition forall n, P(n) by testing P(n) for many n.
18:25:28 <fax> lol confidence
18:25:34 <alise> You can't outright *prove* it, but this is why people have computers searching for counterexamples to the Collatz conjecture.
18:25:39 <fax> sure is engineering in here
18:25:44 <alise> Mathematics isn't /all/ about proofs.
18:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan's proof seemed to use the fact that 1+f(u, v) > u and v.
18:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's somewhere in today's logs, and it should be adjustable for the triangular function.
18:27:12 <alise> Well, this is almost true.
18:27:23 <alise> No, wait, it is true.
18:27:47 <alise> So since 1+f(u,v) > u and v,
18:28:01 <alise> f^-1(n-1) < u and v
18:28:11 <alise> So, the result always gets smaller.
18:28:22 <alise> Since this is the naturals, the only value it can approach if it always gets smaller is 0.
18:28:29 <alise> 0 always terminates, for it results in [].
18:28:35 <alise> Therefore, the function always terminates. Q.E.D.
18:29:06 <alise> Er, rather, I mean:
18:29:18 <alise> If (u,v) = f^-1(n-1), u and v < n
18:29:23 <alise> I think. Anyway, it's true.
18:29:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I'd like to think about making loops better first. And there isn't much to write.
18:29:49 <alise> Silly language: BF, but in Bifro syntax.
18:30:05 <alise> You can't run non-trivial programs, because they don't fit into the universe.
18:30:18 <alise> So it's very theoretically Turing complete only. :P
18:30:29 <alise> Unless you produced an interpreter with no, or not many at all, nested brackets...
18:30:44 <alise> How something can be TC but not possible in the universe like that?
18:30:59 <fax> alise unignore me
18:31:06 <alise> Because mathematics is larger than the universe; that's why we can say "for all" and it means "every natural", not "everything up to 10^80 or so"
18:35:49 <alise> Let's play ... NETWORK TABLE TENNIS!
18:35:59 <alise> Ping. Pong. Ping. Pong. Pingpongpingpongpingpong connection dropped.
18:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> It seems to have frozen on "+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"
18:47:22 <alise> pikhq: I realised that my typesetting system can easily be used for literate programming too.
18:47:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Why not evaluate it manually?
18:49:06 <alise> pikhq: Some hypothetical usage: http://pastie.org/943852.txt?key=321l5gwchzzohrrzdehmzg
18:49:15 <alise> Using the evilly-named commands \, \\, and \\=.
18:56:03 <alise> http://www.literateprogramming.com/adventure.pdf ADVENTURE, the literate program.
18:57:00 <alise> Penned by Knuth himself.
18:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Tried "++++++++++++++++++". It comes out as a 50085-digit number.
18:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> My problem is that I can't see what's in the lower numbers. There must be some *enormous* trivial ones.
18:59:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: well it's not quadratic because biTo is nested tons, right?
18:59:27 <alise> so there's a ton of /nested/ multiplications
19:01:09 <alise> I advise everyone to read http://www.literateprogramming.com/adventure.pdf, by the way.
19:01:49 <alise> "If I were writing this program, I would allow the word woods, but Don apparently didnt want to."
19:01:54 <alise> Damn INTERCALator.
19:02:03 <alise> INTERCALator, n. one who uses INTERCAL.
19:03:05 <alise> I dislike how it has visible spaces in strings, but eh
19:04:25 <alise> new mess ("Watch it!");
19:05:57 <alise> 27. The instructions here keep you in the forest with probability 50%, otherwise they take you to the
19:05:57 <alise> woods . This gives the illusion that we maintain more state information about you than we really do.
19:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> You know, fax's method may have been mathematically inelegant, but at least it would have given sane numbers.
19:08:25 <alise> Would it have? I beg to differ.
19:08:36 <alise> I think it would enumerate all programs with loops of length N before getting onto a single one with N+1.
19:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> If you count up in base 8, using the instructions as the digits, until you reach the program, then discard the invalid programs, the length of what's left is a bijection
19:10:13 <fax> Phantom_Hoover_: fuck off troll
19:10:16 <alise> "The twisty little passages of this maze are said to be all alike,"
19:10:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I know.
19:10:24 <alise> I think it would enumerate all programs with loops of length N before getting onto a single one with N+1.
19:10:30 <alise> Which would mean the numbers would not be reasonable.
19:10:41 -!- impomatic has joined.
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19:10:57 <fax> alise: yeah the numbers relating to the size of the program.. that must be unreasonable
19:11:38 <oerjan> hi, have you rewritten bi{Fro,To} to use triangular numbers yet?
19:11:48 <alise> oerjan: but we need a better loop nester
19:12:02 <oerjan> btw i realized after i logged out that there is a way to do the floor exactly
19:12:06 <alise> http://pastie.org/943801.txt?key=uwdomh4k9krj16tc9ezw
19:12:10 <alise> where m = (isqrt (8*n+1) - 1) `div` 2
19:12:17 <alise> oerjan: we did not use your algorithm
19:12:21 <alise> fizzie got a computer to invert it, hooray
19:12:23 <alise> biFro n = (m - (n - biTo (m,0)), n - biTo (m,0))
19:12:24 <oerjan> ok you found that formula too
19:12:24 <alise> where m = (isqrt (8*n+1) - 1) `div` 2
19:12:28 <alise> biTo (u,v) = triang (u+v) + v
19:12:29 <alise> where triang n = n * (n+1) `div` 2
19:12:48 <alise> you're sad now :))
19:12:57 <oerjan> well u,v, is the same thing
19:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think that the number for a program of length n with fax's method must be less than 8^n, but there may be an off-by-one in that.
19:13:31 <oerjan> alise: why sad? just because you found what i would have suggested?
19:13:43 <oerjan> what algorithm didn't you use?
19:13:55 <alise> the one you suggested with the floor of sqrt 2n
19:14:09 <alise> I dunno, I get sad when my discoveries aren't a prodigal genius one :-)
19:14:38 <oerjan> yeah i realized that the (x+y)(x-y) rule could be used to make it exact instead, with that 8*n+1 etc. thing
19:14:40 <fax> who are you to judge what is mathematically elegant?
19:15:16 <oerjan> anyway i'm not sad. today i forgot a ballpoint pen in my laundry, first time for me afair
19:15:42 <oerjan> so i expected complete disaster, but both the sweater and the pen appear to have survived :)
19:16:03 <oerjan> (it even wrote when i tested)
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19:19:34 <alise> oerjan: this is the kind of thing all mathematicians get happy about, isn't it...
19:19:37 <alise> I can just tell from the way you say it :D
19:20:13 <oerjan> i don't know how much other mathematicians forget pens in their laundry, might be an occupational danger...
19:20:37 <alise> *hazard, is more idiomatic.
19:20:39 <oerjan> it's just i'm usually careful about it
19:21:07 <oerjan> what's wrong with the loop nesting?
19:21:29 <alise> we do "crush xs" which makes a ruddy big number, then later on we crush that /again/ to flatten the whole program
19:21:31 <fax> I use pencils
19:21:33 <alise> now consider nested loops
19:21:37 <alise> feel the pain, FEEEEEL the pain
19:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> No-one's computed the number for a non-trivial program much longer than cat.
19:22:16 <oerjan> i _did_ think about it a bit when away, on long lists it would tend to blow the final parts up more than the beginning, wouldn't it?
19:22:46 <oerjan> but i didn't think the nesting of loops would be the problem...
19:22:54 <alise> it blows up a lot more with that
19:22:56 <alise> maybe it IS that...
19:23:04 <oerjan> i thought of a way around it
19:23:30 <oerjan> basically store a list as a tree instead, so tuples spread out more balancedly
19:23:57 <oerjan> this requires some care to make sure we don't miss numbers, i think
19:23:58 <alise> *Main Data.List> elemIndex ",[.,]" . filter balanced . kleene . map (:[]) $ "-+<>,.[]"
19:24:09 <alise> I think my loop conjecture about fax's may be wrong :(
19:24:16 <alise> that was Ilari's idea
19:24:28 <oerjan> alise: oh well i guess :D
19:24:38 <fax> I also mentioned this alise did not understand it
19:24:47 <oerjan> except i thought that it is necessary to give each list a _unique_ tree
19:24:59 <alise> *Main Data.List> elemIndex ",[.[-],]" . filter balanced . kleene . map (:[]) $ "-+<>,.[]"
19:25:03 <alise> This thing is biased against EOF on 0
19:25:14 <alise> Conclusion: Not a viable computational algorithm.
19:25:42 <alise> v a i = [s++t | s <- v a (i-1), t <- a]
19:25:42 <alise> kleene a = kleene' a 0
19:25:42 <alise> where kleene' a n = v a n ++ kleene' a (n+1)
19:25:51 <alise> so kleene on that generates all valid and invalid bf progams
19:25:58 <alise> then we filter to get only balanced ones, and look up the prog
19:26:05 <alise> fax was yelling at us to use this instead because it's soooo trivial
19:26:12 <alise> but it seems it does not like being computed. maybe it'd be better with fusion
19:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's trivial in terms of the algorithm, but it's even worse than ours in terms of practicality.
19:27:00 <fax> that's because you don't know how to implement it efficently
19:27:23 <fax> look up stirling numbers if you are serious about this
19:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> fax: Your method requires that we enumerate *every* valid program up to x, a huge computation.
19:30:50 <fax> take a class on counting
19:31:01 <fax> you can do this efficently
19:31:32 <fax> Phantom_Hoover_: take back what you said earlier
19:31:43 <oerjan> <alise> hey oerjan log-reading <-- hello
19:31:50 <fax> Phantom_Hoover_: you called me a troll
19:32:52 <alise> oerjan: i said something to you :P
19:33:25 <oerjan> <alise> "plus or minus any off-by-one errors"; says oerjan
19:33:26 <fax> I pity those who have too much pride to admit they are wrong
19:33:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: i'd tell you, but you're NASTY
19:33:47 <oerjan> there weren't any in that formula, amazingly
19:33:54 <alise> sometimes you've had a reply-latency of a FEW MINUTES!
19:33:59 <oerjan> alise: i noticed. the logs are just huge today.
19:34:02 <alise> oerjan: off-by-one errors are, like, the scourge of everything
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19:34:21 <fax> off by one errors are something you learn to avoid when you are beginner
19:34:35 <fax> if you are still stuggling with them it's time to go over he basics again
19:34:58 <alise> statement to nothing?
19:35:08 <fax> im not insulting anyone
19:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, I suppose you'll just accuse us of fabricating what you said two minutes ago.
19:37:10 <fax> <BF> ::= \epsilon | <INST> <BF> | '[ <BF> ']'
19:37:21 <fax> <INST> ::= '+' | '-' | ...
19:37:36 -!- adam_d has joined.
19:37:56 <fax> BNF is a pretty basic technique from computing, dates back to ALGOL
19:38:25 <oerjan> fax: i said it might contain off-by-one errors because i didn't bother to check before writing it, i knew that was the essence apart from it. although it was also accidentally completely correct.
19:39:01 <oerjan> fax: i've been mentioning algebraic data types before, for this problem that's about equivalent
19:40:06 <oerjan> anyway i though that if the length of the list is 2^n+1 <= l < 2^n, we use a tree of depth n
19:40:33 <oerjan> with all empty nodes at either the left end or the right one
19:41:02 <oerjan> however _some_ of the nodes are just tuples, others are variants (haskell Either)
19:41:15 <alise> Either tuple variants!
19:41:20 <alise> Either tuple Either
19:41:37 <oerjan> as ((Empty,+),(+,+)) but with some care there
19:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Quit: Phantom_Hoover_).
19:43:11 <oerjan> data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch (Tree a) (CompleteTree a)
19:43:23 <AnMaster> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/A-Real-TriState.aspx <-- this is to tristate as filenotfound is to boolean
19:43:24 <oerjan> i'm not bothering to incorporate the depth
19:44:23 <oerjan> or wait, maybe i'll do that with a "dependent n", not legal haskell but more descriptive
19:44:30 <alise> clearly, size_of_presumably(n) = odds[n]
19:45:40 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:45:56 <oerjan> the thing about the CompleteTree part is that we know the depth from the left part of the branch, so we can just use tuples without variants down to the bottom
19:46:28 <oerjan> actually we need an Empty | in that i think
19:47:16 -!- adam_d has joined.
19:47:41 <oerjan> it is possible that it needs another data type PossiblyEmptyTree a :D
19:48:36 <oerjan> oh wait of course we have the empty list too hm
19:48:46 <alise> EmptyTreeWithProbabilityOnePointSeventyFive
19:49:11 <alise> data EmptyTreeWithProbabilityOnePointSeventyFive = Empty1 | Empty2 | Empty3 | NotEmpty Tree
19:49:21 <alise> (the constructors are hidden and a function uses unsafePerformIO to return one of these randomly)
19:52:05 <oerjan> lessee to get this started
19:52:35 <oerjan> a single element list [x] = 1+2*x
19:53:39 <oerjan> well tree or list, it's about the number of elements
19:54:22 <oerjan> a larger list/tree than that is 2+2*f(left part, right part)
19:54:44 <alise> <oerjan> a single element list [x] = 1+2*x
19:55:03 <alise> or do we not have that?
19:55:22 <oerjan> um the inner [x] is using the ordinary 6+crush [x] stuff
19:55:28 <oerjan> since it's a single element
19:55:51 <alise> so this is to solve the problem that crush is horrible?
19:56:00 <alise> what is the algorithm for distributing the tree?
19:56:23 <oerjan> well i think the best is simply all elements as far to the left in the tree as possible
19:56:40 <oerjan> (since the opposite is harder to collect in haskell, i think)
19:57:23 <alise> isn't this actually bigger than the list encoding
19:57:27 <alise> ... we timesify the f
19:57:32 <alise> and if we go the left part, then...
19:57:47 <oerjan> um no because we have less depth of nesting of f's
19:58:45 <alise> you said distribute everything to the left.
19:58:56 <oerjan> oh that's not what i meant
19:59:03 <oerjan> the tree is perfectly balanced
19:59:26 <oerjan> it's just that the left over empty parts from 2^n-x should be put at the right end
20:00:16 <oerjan> the thing about is: see the 2+2*f(left part, right part) thing?
20:00:40 <oerjan> if we distribute like this, we know that "left part" is a _complete_ tree with 2^(n-1) leafs
20:01:02 <oerjan> which means we need no variants when encoding it
20:01:22 <alise> i vote you write the code and i relax
20:01:25 <oerjan> let me try to show what +++ is, if my brain grasps it
20:04:18 <oerjan> 2+2*f(f(+,+),1+2*f(2*(+),0))
20:04:24 <oerjan> no i'm _not_ sure of that :D
20:05:05 <oerjan> the thing is to use variants (Either) splits only where we know there _can_ be a split
20:05:40 <oerjan> and this leads to a number of cases for how a subtree is encoded.
20:07:00 <oerjan> if it's a left branch of something with a nonempty right branch, then we know it is a full tree, like in that f(+,+) part, and we need not bother with possibility of leafs or empty nodes - we already know the depth from the right branch
20:07:31 <fax> oerjah, http://i.imgur.com/F0q6m.jpg
20:09:12 <oerjan> now for the right branch of the top, we know that it cannot be an empty tree (since then we'd just need one level less) and so it's 1+ rather than 2+
20:09:37 <oerjan> it could still be a leaf though, thus the 1+2* to show it's not
20:10:10 <oerjan> (although that subtree contains just 1 leaf, we still make it depth 2 so all branches are the same depth)
20:10:28 <oerjan> now the right branch of the right branch is empty, thus 0
20:11:22 <oerjan> the left branch of the right branch is a leaf, so 2*leaf value (there is no possibility of this being empty, for the same reason as before, so no 1+)
20:12:02 <oerjan> and having looked at the right branch of the whole tree like this, we now know that the tree depth is 2, and can use f(+,+) for the tree's left branch
20:12:46 <oerjan> (as already mentioned)
20:13:03 <oerjan> note that we look at the right branch to find the information about the depth of the left branch
20:14:17 <alise> now that /is/ overcomplicated :D
20:14:49 <oerjan> yeah all that complication is to ensure no numbers encode a tree that cannot be gotten from a list
20:15:55 <alise> sheesh, ADVENT has really simple code
20:16:04 <alise> it doesn't even have proper conditionals, or even code, in the adventure part
20:16:09 <oerjan> btw i also thought of another possible list encoding, but that might be harder to invert
20:16:13 <alise> just a huge table of boolean things, and rules for directions/commands at each place
20:16:15 <alise> without even code!
20:16:34 <oerjan> basically l -> (length l, encoding of tuple l using _multiple_ binomial coefficients)
20:17:31 <oerjan> iirc (x1,x2,...,xn) -> binom (x1+x2+...+xn, n) + binom(x1+x2+...+x(n-1), n-1) + ... + x1
20:18:04 <oerjan> the generalization of the triangular method to N^n <-> N
20:18:24 <alise> oh so this is basically the bijection we have but to ^n?
20:18:35 <alise> I wonder if anyone else has written an N^n <-> N bijection
20:18:42 <alise> sounds like something that could Come In Handy.
20:18:53 <oerjan> however it's going to be harder to invert, probably requires something with nth root
20:19:30 <oerjan> alise: i think we mentioned this one when fax discussed finite integrals at one time
20:19:42 <oerjan> so it's presumably well-known
20:19:51 <alise> there was a lot of that
20:20:01 <alise> of course, I know that :P
20:20:08 <alise> but i think the C involved had three arguments?
20:22:01 <alise> "# (If you hit the bear after feeding it:) The bear is confused; he only wants to be your friend."
20:22:06 <alise> --[[Colossal Cave Adventure]]
20:23:22 <oerjan> oh and then there was the fibonacci idea i've mentioned before
20:24:04 <oerjan> it requires converting to/from fibonacci base as well as binary though
20:24:35 <oerjan> basically in fibonacci base any number >= 1 starts with 1, then some series of 0,1 with _no_ instance of 11
20:25:38 <oerjan> which means if you concatenate numbers in fibonacci base with 1 intercalated between, you get a bitstring and this process is reversible
20:26:14 <alise> but we need the reversibility to apply to all nats
20:27:00 <oerjan> yes, i'm a bit fishy on what is missed this way
20:27:34 <oerjan> or well, _any_ bitstring starting with 1 can clearly be split up at points where you have 11
20:28:04 <oerjan> 11 at beginning and end may be subtle
20:29:33 <oerjan> and several 11 in a row too
20:30:01 <oerjan> possibly 0 should be the empty string in fibonacci, or does that make things worse...
20:30:58 <oerjan> well, anywhere you get 110 you have a clear split, the first 1 must be the separator
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20:32:08 <oerjan> one nice thing about this is that loops would only blow up by about log_2 phi
20:32:38 <oerjan> well any list element, really
20:32:59 <oerjan> maybe a bit more for small elements
20:34:26 <oerjan> ok you cannot have 0 as empty string, 111 could mean either ,1, or ,0,0, in that case
20:35:33 <alise> oerjan: now finish figuring out the encoding, i'll even implement it :P
20:35:36 <oerjan> now if you have 111110 say, we know that's 111++[10..,...]
20:36:10 <oerjan> a 11 at the end can only be ,1 i think
20:36:33 <oerjan> and so if we have several 11 in a row we can nest them up from the back
20:37:02 <oerjan> little-endian is probably good for this stuff
20:37:29 <oerjan> or wait, big-endian for encoding _into_ fibonacci
20:38:32 <oerjan> 11 alone, what does that mean
20:38:51 <oerjan> you cannot get that from concatenating stuff :(
20:39:37 <oerjan> there are some loose ends there :D
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20:40:34 <oerjan> you cannot get a bitstring starting with 110 in this way either
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20:42:34 <oerjan> trying to something with fibonacci base
20:42:49 <oerjan> alas it seems to miss some bitstrings
20:42:59 -!- nooga has joined.
20:44:13 <nooga> i'm working on chaos based music
20:44:23 <oerjan> you cannot get bitstrings starting with an even number of 1's
20:44:41 <alise> oerjan: well fix that
20:45:54 <oerjan> well it seems that adding 1 toggles between legal and illegal, so we can encode a Bool in addition to the list ;)
20:47:45 <alise> yes but stop cheating :D
20:49:24 <oerjan> well i can cheat _more_ by merging that Bool with the first list element (2*x-b)
20:50:21 <oerjan> erm to get a bijection with non-empty lists of integers >= 1. at least that may be what we get
20:50:58 <alise> ok now i'd like an actual algorithm :D
20:51:32 <oerjan> ok so given a non-empty list of integers >= 1
20:51:51 <oerjan> divide the first one by 2 and take a bool for the remainder
20:52:48 <alise> f xs = g (map (+1) xs)
20:53:08 <alise> as in floor-divide?
20:55:55 <oerjan> crush (x:xs) = fromBinary $ (if b==1 then "1" else "") ++ intercalate "1" [toFibonacci (x+1) | x <- y:xs] where (b,y) = divMod x 2
20:56:59 <oerjan> maybe using x for two things is a bit bad.
20:57:57 <oerjan> er *(y, b) = divMod x 2
20:58:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: what?
20:58:35 <alise> oerjan: decode numbers as bits
20:59:11 <oerjan> there is no guarantee of numbers being the same length
20:59:40 <alise> yeah, pad with 0 would work fine
20:59:41 <Deewiant> Note that quotRem is faster than divMod
20:59:43 <alise> since it'd turn into 0000x
20:59:56 <nooga> alise: merzbow's creations aren't in my style
21:00:01 <oerjan> hm... maybe that works
21:00:06 <impomatic> Does anyone remember the name of the language similar to Brainfuck from the 1960s?
21:00:22 <alise> nooga: they're not in /any/ style
21:00:26 <alise> oerjan: but it grows a lot, doesn't it
21:00:52 <alise> if log_2(x) = a and log_2(y) = b, then log_2(f(x,y)) = a+b
21:01:07 <alise> so two 500 binary digit numbers -> 1000
21:01:07 <nooga> alise: merzbow is distinguishable
21:01:10 <alise> that's not bad actually
21:01:24 <oerjan> alise: um that's the minimum information theory allows, or so :D
21:01:51 <alise> oerjan: so it's actually very good, isn't it
21:02:07 <oerjan> what about combining this with my idea of (length l, tuple encoding)
21:02:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: It's just divmod
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21:02:40 <oerjan> then you can alternate the bits of _all_ the numbers
21:02:42 <alise> oerjan: Sure, although I've no idea what that encoding is
21:03:06 <oerjan> alise: um i meant to use this alternating for that tuple encoding
21:03:15 <alise> yes, what tuple encoding :D
21:03:30 <oerjan> _as_ that tuple encoding
21:03:38 <alise> why encode it with length
21:03:47 <alise> anyway so let's see
21:03:51 <alise> biTo will be recursive, eek
21:03:53 <alise> that's not good is it
21:03:59 <oerjan> so you know how many numbers you've mingled
21:04:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> Interleaving the bits two by two is just as space-efficient as interleaving them all at once.
21:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's just another NxN->N bijection, so we can use our old encoding.
21:05:02 <oerjan> yeah but our problem was to avoid blowing up some parts
21:05:05 <nooga> oerjan: what does theese mean: "man pleier å få som fortjent!" and "Disse statusoppdateringene som inneholder varmegrader kan du godt spare deg for."
21:05:27 <alise> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
21:05:28 <alise> (u',a) = if u == 0 then (0,0) else u `divMod` 2
21:05:28 <alise> (v',b) = if u == 0 then (0,0) else v `divMod` 2
21:05:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: using this for NxN-> N will be _bad_ for long lists with the old method
21:05:31 <alise> (((u' * 2) + v') * 2) + biTo (u',v')
21:05:48 <oerjan> because alternating is only efficient when the numbers are approx. same size
21:05:51 <alise> no, then (0,1) = 0
21:06:30 <alise> so 0,1 it should be read
21:06:37 <alise> so yeah, wrong way around
21:07:03 <oerjan> which is why i suggested alternating all the bits simultaneously
21:07:27 <alise> so it's stored as (3,111)
21:07:34 <alise> oerjan: then we crush recursively?
21:07:44 <alise> [1,[1,1,1],1] = (3,1(3,111)1)
21:08:00 <alise> or does 3 go into the number somehow?
21:08:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: it's information-theoretically optimal...
21:08:22 <oerjan> alise: crushing (3,111) gives something (2, x) and the 2 is redundant
21:08:50 <oerjan> although that's not very efficient since 3 might be much smaller than the snd
21:09:19 <oerjan> alise: if we crush (3,x) where x is large we get a _lot_ of zero padding on the 3
21:09:34 <alise> (((a * 2) + b) * 2) + biTo (u',v')
21:09:43 <alise> this recursion is hairy i think it is iterative :(
21:09:54 <alise> oerjan: so, question
21:10:01 <alise> is the interleaving good
21:10:05 <alise> or is your fib thing good
21:11:30 <oerjan> nooga: "one usually gets as one deserves!" "these status updates containing above zero (celsius) degrees you can just stop doing."
21:11:49 <nooga> oh right, thank you
21:12:51 <oerjan> alise: the interleaving is much simpler but has that problem with size differences giving much padding
21:13:49 <alise> oerjan: what is wrong with cons-cell interleaving?
21:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> The accumulator gets much larger than the car, so it's padded.
21:14:48 <oerjan> alise: well if you do (a,(b,(c,(d,(e,0))))) then the bits of e will end up 32 bits apart, while the bits of a just end up 2 apart
21:14:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: so do it the other way around!
21:14:55 <alise> doesn't work like that lol
21:15:07 <alise> oerjan: then we need some kind of synchronization
21:15:12 <alise> oerjan: does your fibonacci thing suffer this problem?
21:15:43 <oerjan> alise: and actually if you only do pairs then the triangle method is perfectly adequate, i should think
21:16:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: eh
21:17:13 <oerjan> i think the fibonacci method is quite lean, it only uses about log_2 phi * bitsize bits + 1 for each element regardless of size differences
21:17:14 <alise> 11 at the start would be 0, too, because 1 is the starter
21:17:23 <alise> oerjan: no bitsize
21:17:48 <oerjan> alise: bits are intrinsic to the fibonacci method
21:18:05 <oerjan> and is a perfectly valid measure of number size
21:18:16 <fax> a stream of bits controls a machine
21:18:18 <alise> is it actually log_2(n)
21:18:23 <fax> the machine is a type writer
21:18:32 <oerjan> no, log_2(phi) * element size
21:18:41 <alise> ok, i'm confused now
21:19:04 <oerjan> phi is the golden ratio, the limit of ratios of consecutive fibonacci numbers
21:19:13 <fax> if | is the cursor: | +| +>| +>[|] +>[+|] this is the sort of typing you can do
21:19:20 <oerjan> so converting binary -> fibonacci base expands by about that much
21:19:47 <fax> when you are inside a bracket, there is an extra key allowed which steps out - but this has some redundancy
21:20:14 <fax> because there is a difference between +>[+|] and +>[+]| for example.. but they are equal programs
21:20:20 <fax> how to reconsile this?
21:20:54 <oerjan> alise: oh i mean element size in bits, of course
21:21:03 <fax> maybe you always have to put down a symbol when you step out a bracket -- but that interferes with stepping out of multiple nested brackets
21:21:04 <oerjan> not the bitsize of machine words :D
21:21:18 <alise> i know what phi is
21:21:45 <alise> log_2 is no. of bits, yeah
21:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> fax: An interesting idea, but it would seem that it would be difficult to get uniqueness.
21:22:37 <fax> is it possible to fix this idea?
21:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> I don't really know. Also, would it be easy to compute both ways?
21:23:48 <oerjan> sheesh i still haven't gotten to the logs...
21:23:58 <oerjan> i think i'm just going to search for my name
21:27:16 <oerjan> alise: i conclude that although you mentioned my nick several times, all the problems were solved before i arrived
21:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> So exactly how does the base-phi encoding work? Write the no.s in base phi, then use 11 to separate
21:28:11 <oerjan> alise: well the parts of the problems you were mentioning my nick about, anyway
21:28:32 <oerjan> the second 1 is just the beginning of the next number
21:28:59 <oerjan> also, there is some trickiness at the beginning, see my haskell code far above ;)
21:29:27 <oerjan> first to fix the trickiness, divide 1 by 2 giving 0, remainder 1
21:29:29 <alise> how is the 1 the beginning of the next?
21:29:45 <oerjan> alise: all numbers >= 1 begin with 1 in fibonacci base
21:30:22 <oerjan> alise: boundaries are marked with 11, where the first 1 is inserted and the second is just the begining of the next number
21:30:43 <oerjan> 21:55 oerjan> crush (x:xs) = fromBinary $ (if b==1 then "1" else "") ++ intercalate "1" [toFibonacci (x+1) | x <- y:xs] where (b,y) = divMod x 2
21:31:14 <oerjan> there may be off-by-one errors as usual ;)
21:31:28 -!- alise_ has joined.
21:31:42 <oerjan> concatenates all the strings with "1" between
21:32:52 <alise_> oerjan: so does that cover every string?
21:32:54 <oerjan> the divMod stuff is necessary because the intercalation always gives a string beginning with an _odd_ number of 1's
21:32:55 <alise_> & does it compact well?
21:33:20 <oerjan> as i repeatedly said, it should expand by about log_2(phi)
21:33:56 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 2 ((sqrt 5 + 1)/2)
21:34:08 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:34:20 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]).
21:34:53 <alise_> what, expand by the concatenation of all the bitstrings with no separator?
21:34:56 <alise_> it'll only be log_2(phi) bigger?
21:35:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: approximately
21:35:40 <oerjan> you write your number as a sum of fibonacci numbers, never using consecutive ones
21:35:54 <oerjan> nopt, 11 is illegal in a fibonacci representation
21:36:46 <oerjan> alise_: oh hm if phi is < 1 then it should be 1/phi, naturally
21:37:31 <alise_> bigness (yourEncoding [a,b,c]) ~= bigness (concatMap bitStrings [a,b,c]) + 1/phi
21:38:44 <oerjan> if x has n bits, then fibonacci x is approximately n/log_2(phi) long
21:38:59 <oerjan> i just realized it needs division, not multiplication
21:39:08 <oerjan> because log_2(phi) < 1
21:40:22 <oerjan> fib(n) ~= phi^n, so log_2(fib(n)) ~= n*logBase 2 phi
21:40:36 <alise_> you changed mid-thing :P
21:40:43 <alise_> oerjan: what about the list encoding
21:40:44 <oerjan> i just changed to haskell
21:40:57 <alise_> but you changed language across the sing!
21:41:37 <oerjan> the fibonacci representation, plus the 1 bit in between...
21:41:49 <alise_> does it cover every nat then??
21:42:29 <alise_> "Everyone who applies for Norwegian citizenship after 1 September 2008 must be able to document that they have completed 300 hours of Norwegian language tuition or be able to document adequate knowledge of Norwegian or Sami.
21:42:35 <alise_> if this didn't apply to in-EU migration too,
21:43:00 <oerjan> alise_: citizenship is not the same as moving
21:43:09 <oerjan> citizenship takes years of residence to get
21:43:19 <alise_> what if you try and move in from outside the EU?
21:43:29 <oerjan> then you may have a hard time
21:43:30 <alise_> is that just the regular visa thing?
21:44:04 <oerjan> you need to be an especially needed person to get a working permit if you're not from the EU/EEA
21:44:06 <alise_> speaking of which, pikhq: ping
21:44:11 <alise_> (he's my personal immigration law expert)
21:44:33 <alise_> oerjan: I only ask because I've been discussing, with a friend, utterly crazy ways to move
21:44:56 <alise_> First one was "him and me should get married so that I can move to the US"; issues: I'm 14; his state is heavily Republican so no gay marriage
21:45:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: [1,0] i think
21:45:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has left (?).
21:45:23 <pikhq> oerjan: Alise is an EU citizen, and as such, is entitled to reside in Norway permanently.
21:45:34 <alise_> I was talking about said friend
21:45:40 <oerjan> pikhq: she was specifically asking about non-EU
21:45:43 <alise_> who, of course, is entirely joking
21:45:55 <alise_> oerjan: I'm surprised you're actually keeping up the pronoun thing
21:46:08 <oerjan> alise_: when i remember
21:46:45 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:48:08 <oerjan> whee, i'm forgetting to eat
21:48:19 <alise_> other things are just so much more interesting
21:59:42 -!- hiato has joined.
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22:32:13 <alise_> let's create [[Remarkable language list]]
22:32:22 <alise_> which lists all the actually good languages on the wiki
22:32:25 <alise_> we'll put at the start
22:32:30 <alise_> languages known in the community for a while
22:32:36 <alise_> that have shown good esoteric theoretical/practical qualities
22:32:44 <alise_> and telling people not to put new languages on the list
22:32:48 <alise_> tada, a language list that is actually usable!
22:32:53 <alise_> and nobody is offended
22:32:56 <alise_> perhaps [[Languages of note]]
22:33:33 <oerjan> !haskell data Remarkable = Remarkable String String deriving Show; language = "Haskell"; list = "compendium"; main = print [[Remarkable language list]]
22:33:36 <EgoBot> [[Remarkable "Haskell" "compendium"]]
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22:45:27 <nooga> alise_: what are your esolangs?
22:46:35 <alise_> nooga: just finding them :P
22:47:58 <alise_> nooga: here are all the ones I can find right now, mostly old:
22:48:00 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq
22:48:01 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting
22:48:03 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael
22:48:10 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode (never specified)
22:48:12 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/JumpFuck
22:48:19 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_machine (not really a language; part of a project)
22:49:11 <alise_> JumpFuck was a project too, for a something->BF compiler iirc
22:49:19 <alise_> a rather ugly extension too
22:49:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:50:33 <alise_> Qq was quite nice, took a while to be disproved TC
22:50:45 <alise_> Jumping to -1 is exciting is confusing.
22:51:27 <alise_> the things after the instructions are the tape/stack/whatever
22:51:37 <alise_> and # is incompletely specified
22:51:53 <alise_> it's "cherry-pick from the stack" basically, iirc
22:52:31 <alise_> yeah; it's sub-TC due to the instructions not allowing arbitrary function calls or something
22:52:47 <alise_> Yael is a nice little computotron, with very limited memory.
22:53:46 <nooga> i could even implement yael in FPGA
22:54:49 <alise_> Moves the data in register B to register A.
22:54:49 <alise_> Store - in the memory whose address is in register B - the data in register A.
22:54:51 <alise_> How inconsistent! Oh well.
22:55:20 <alise_> nooga: You can implement it in practically anything. It only has 264 bytes of memory.
22:56:14 <pikhq> That actually wouldn't be too hard.
22:56:24 <pikhq> You could even do the memory in relays.
22:56:27 <nooga> that's why i am saying that
22:56:48 <pikhq> It would also make some absolutely *wonderful* noises.
22:57:02 <pikhq> Relay computers are awesome.
22:57:15 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM4IUxXiArY
22:58:39 <alise_> Dammit, I loaded /prog/ again. Now I won't be able to stop myself calling Python FIOC.
22:59:31 <fax> YEAH BUT WHO DOESNT INDENT THER CODE?
23:01:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null).
23:06:52 <fax> I want to tell alise something
23:09:14 <fax> !haskell alise unignore me I have news to tell you
23:09:26 <fax> !haskell "alise unignore me I have news to tell you"
23:09:28 <EgoBot> "alise unignore me I have news to tell you"
23:13:49 * pikhq wishes for a way to request someone's ignore list
23:14:15 <fax> pikhq only assholes and stalkers do this but you can /ping people to see if they have you on /ignore
23:14:17 * oerjan cannot hear you LALALALA
23:14:39 <fax> why the hell would you ping me
23:14:53 <fax> I clearly don't have you on ignore
23:19:15 <alise_> fax: I don't know how to unignore you o_O
23:19:24 <alise_> fax: done; what is it?
23:19:33 <fax> alise you are listening now?
23:19:46 -!- coppro has joined.
23:19:58 <fax> you are pretending to have unignored me
23:20:15 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua).
23:21:07 <alise_> yeah but you need the full mask
23:21:27 <fax> does [] ever come up in real brainfuck programs?
23:21:45 <fax> I mean it always finite loops.. or it's a noop - so we can ignore it yes?
23:21:57 <coppro> you mean infinite loops?
23:21:58 <alise_> because we're trying to translate every bf program :)
23:22:01 <alise_> trivial to translate some subset
23:22:10 <alise_> the edge-cases are what makes it hard -- but go on anyway
23:22:34 <alise_> the hard part isn't "a bijection from BF prog <-> nat", anyway, it's "a feasibly computable bijection from BF prog <-> nat" :-P
23:22:58 <fax> if you need []'s in the programs then my idea is worth nothing
23:24:13 <alise_> I am interested anyway
23:24:17 <alise_> ideas are always worth something... sometimes it's negative though
23:24:29 <alise_> but that's okay because you can find out some positive-worth idea to balance it out
23:24:38 <alise_> so somehow -a + a > 0???
23:24:40 <fax> lets say that +- -+ <> >< [] never occur in any program
23:25:02 <fax> that contains <>
23:25:14 <fax> I just realized this idea doesn't work anyway
23:25:55 <fax> it will only work for programs of even length
23:26:44 <fax> what I noticed was that there's 6*6 two-symbol codes, 5 of them aren't used, 6*6-5 is 31
23:26:45 <alise_> it sounds so bad it's interesting
23:26:48 <fax> then you add loops 32
23:27:32 <fax> the condition is a bit harsher than just even length programs actually, anyway this idea is broken so never mind
23:27:54 <fax> I thought I had solved it
23:30:03 <alise_> Argh, I am sick of hot chocolate. I cannot be arsed to deal with the stupid skin that forms.
23:30:10 <alise_> I should just drink tea or something.
23:30:27 <fax> the key thing is that 32 is a power of two
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23:34:15 <MizardX> ][ too, since when exiting a loop, the current memory cell will be zero, and the next loop won't start.
23:34:27 <alise_> but it still must be encoded.
23:34:57 <alise_> filtercomments | bf encode | bf decode = filtercomments
23:35:11 <alise_> bf encode | bf decode = filtercomments
23:35:17 <pikhq> If you don't encode it, then you are encoding a subset of the valid Brainfuck programs.
23:38:42 <oerjan> a loop after ] is a comment :)
23:43:48 <alise_> it's past midnight in norway. in trondheim, it is 0 degrees right now
23:43:53 <alise_> and oerjan is going for a walk.
23:44:33 <coppro> oerjan's in trondheim?
23:46:20 <alise_> he lives in trondheim.
23:47:37 <oerjan> i actually turned around when i discovered the stairs were so slippery with sleet it was dangerous to walk on them :/
23:47:59 <alise_> NOTHING CAN STOP ME -- EXCEPT SLEET, AND GUNS
23:48:02 <pikhq> I think I love Norway's weather now. :P
23:48:04 <alise_> *NOTHING CAN STOP ME -- EXCEPT SLEET, AND WEAPONRY
23:48:11 <alise_> pikhq: it's fucking amazing!
23:48:18 <alise_> it isn't even freezing ALL the time
23:48:29 <pikhq> alise_: Also, 0 is not *that* cold.
23:48:31 <oerjan> i figured if i took a walk, came back and forgot about the sleet i'd probably fall and break my neck
23:48:45 <alise_> 0 degrees, can't see very well, ...
23:48:51 <alise_> now of course oerjan you realise that you are going to have to lodge me.
23:49:50 <alise_> also, how come half of Trondheim's streets are water, I'm going to ignore the real explanation and substitute "you are all Jesus", or "you all have high-tech ice-making shoes"
23:50:27 <oerjan> we _do_ have a river through the city center, but...
23:50:39 <pikhq> alise_: You... Might be confusing Trondheim with Venice.
23:50:56 <pikhq> Quite some confusion.
23:51:09 <alise_> I was actually going to link to one of these pictures saying "the Venice of Norway":
23:51:13 <alise_> http://www.trondheim.com/multimedia.ap?id=1114985653&width=138
23:51:14 <alise_> http://www.trondheim.com/multimedia.ap?id=9652293
23:51:17 <oerjan> also it _shouldn't_ be this cold in the beginning of may.
23:51:36 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/TrondheimNidelva-improved.jpg
23:51:39 <pikhq> oerjan: I have seen snowstorms in June.
23:51:42 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Nidelva-Trondheim-foliage.JPG
23:52:38 <pikhq> Colorado has fucking schizophrenic weather.
23:52:57 <oerjan> how sad that you don't have rivers in england.
23:53:04 <alise_> oerjan: i know right :P
23:53:17 <alise_> There was just a disproportionately large portion of pictures of buildings with water right behind them, so...
23:53:27 <alise_> pikhq: Here. You. Let's move to Norway on the basis that broke+broke = not broke.
23:53:42 <alise_> (It doesn't matter whether you're broke beforehand; move to Norway, become enbroken.)
23:54:03 <oerjan> i have taken walks at -5 as well, this winter. -10 starts to get a bit grating.
23:54:05 <pikhq> Do they speak... Japanese there?
23:54:14 <alise_> pikhq: They don't speak Japanese in Colorado.
23:54:24 <pikhq> oerjan: I've walked to school in that.
23:54:27 <alise_> ...and Japan itself has quite a few issues. Namely, being fucked up.
23:54:39 <alise_> I'd say Finland, but military at 18 makes alise sad.
23:54:52 <oerjan> pikhq: i mean taking walks just to stretch my legs.
23:55:11 <oerjan> i've certainly walked to school in -15..-20 when i was younger
23:55:31 <pikhq> alise_: How's about we just move to the moon?
23:55:38 <oerjan> it's not _that_ common here though. temperature has a tendency to cling around 0.
23:56:01 <oerjan> pikhq: we did have the japanese emperor visiting a few years ago.
23:56:16 <oerjan> apparently he wrote a poem about us afterwards.
23:56:20 <alise_> pikhq: it has huge ping to earth iirc
23:56:28 <alise_> that was a really depressing conversation
23:56:41 <alise_> when i found out that colonising even near planets in the solar system meant really slow internet, only e-mail and the like
23:57:04 <alise_> cold cold fucking cold ow,
23:57:25 <pikhq> alise_: Mars has absurd ping to Earth.
23:57:39 <pikhq> alise_: The Moon is not much worse than my current link.
23:57:51 <alise_> mars is more likely to sustain life though :P
23:58:00 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, he's got to do something with his time.
23:58:12 <pikhq> It's not like he has *any power or responsibility*.
23:58:36 <pikhq> He's not even a nominal head of state.
23:59:16 <pikhq> He's only got his position because the Diet wouldn't think to remove it.
23:59:35 <oerjan> http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e-culture/utakai-h18.html
23:59:48 * oerjan didn't expect to actually find it :)
00:02:08 <oerjan> that cannot be the original text surely
00:02:49 <alise_> the national diet of japan. everyone must eat according to it!
00:03:02 <alise_> apart from being translated, obviously
00:03:11 <alise_> His Majesty the Emperor
00:03:11 <alise_> Cruising along the canal,
00:03:11 <pikhq> I haven't a clue why it's "The Diet".
00:03:12 <alise_> Seen smiling and waving hands.
00:03:15 <alise_> that is a really shitty poem
00:03:45 <alise_> also referring to himself in his poem what
00:03:46 * pikhq shall look to see if the Japanese can be found
00:03:48 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it's a borrowed word
00:04:00 <alise_> you are STUPID mr. emperor
00:04:05 <alise_> oerjan: why do you not think it is the original text?
00:04:10 <oerjan> alise_: well translation's what i meant
00:04:17 <alise_> The word diet derives from Latin and was a common name for an assembly in medieval Germany. The Meiji constitution was largely based on the form of constitutional monarchy found in nineteenth century Prussia and the new Diet was modeled partly on the German Reichstag and partly on the British Westminster system. Unlike Japan's modern constitution, the Meiji constitution granted a real political role to the Emperor, although in practice the Emperor's powers
00:04:18 <alise_> were largely directed by a group of oligarchs called the genrō.[16]
00:04:52 <oerjan> alise_: i don't think he's referring to himself, sheesh
00:04:58 <oerjan> that's just the section title
00:07:45 <pikhq> Found the actual original.
00:07:50 <pikhq> "トロンハイムの運河を行けば家々の窓より人ら笑みて手を振る"
00:08:57 <pikhq> alise_: No, he is not referring to himself.
00:09:11 <pikhq> The English translation is *adding* a lot.
00:09:25 <alise_> Translate it for us then plz?
00:10:35 <pikhq> "Trondheim (of) canal (obj) going houses (of) windows, people-group laughing, hand wave"
00:10:38 <pikhq> There's a gloss for you.
00:10:59 <Mathnerd314> hmm... my fonts are missing half those characters.
00:11:43 <pikhq> Or. "Going through Trondheim, at their windows, people are laughing, waving."
00:12:03 <pikhq> s/laughing/smiling/ in that actual translation.
00:12:36 <oerjan> well the _theme_ of that year's poetry was "smile"
00:13:25 <pikhq> That's more "Laughter" than "smile".
00:13:52 <pikhq> Though, it's more of a "happy-gleeful" sort of laughter than mocking sort of thing.
00:14:00 <pikhq> Translation is a bitch.
00:15:07 <pikhq> http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/culture/utakai/utakai-h18.html This page also has a *lot* more poems than the English.
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00:17:11 <alise_> pikhq: he is a bad poet.
00:17:19 <pikhq> alise_: It's not bad in Japanese.
00:17:31 <pikhq> It just loses a lot in the translation.
00:17:35 <pikhq> And it's not *great*. :P
00:17:44 <Mathnerd314> alise_: aren't fonts are OS-independent... ?
00:17:52 <alise_> Mathnerd314: Just answer the question :P
00:18:04 <pikhq> Seems to be... Everyone in the royal family, every prefecture head, and... A Brazilian diplomat?
00:18:05 <alise_> (Yes they are, mostly, but--)
00:18:13 <alise_> Mathnerd314: Put in your Windows install CD, go to keyboard settings, go to I think the third tab.
00:18:19 <alise_> Click install Japanese/Chinese fonts.
00:18:27 <alise_> Which is the reason I asked.
00:18:33 <alise_> They won't be antialiased but who cares. They'll work.
00:18:46 <alise_> Mathnerd314: If you don't want to do that, dunno.
00:18:50 <alise_> Google "windows asian fonts".
00:18:55 <alise_> Speaking of which, pikhq: what are some good antialiased Asian fonts for Linux?
00:19:02 <alise_> Also I have to be up at 9am sigh.
00:19:17 <pikhq> alise_: I'm using Takao.
00:19:24 <pikhq> Crap for Chinese though.
00:19:51 <alise_> So there aren't any good ones? :(
00:19:54 <pikhq> (you need a seperate font for Chinese and Japanese, as the ways of writing them have changed a bit.)
00:20:10 <alise_> Also, will shit automatically use it when the current font fails hard? I assume so.
00:20:19 <alise_> ...and how can it detect /that/?
00:20:37 <pikhq> In HTML, you can specify the used language.
00:20:44 <pikhq> Outside of HTML, "you're fucked".
00:21:18 <alise_> I assume that doesn't mean that.
00:21:36 <pikhq> "Gothic" is an old term for "serif".
00:21:56 <alise_> I am not up-to-date with the olde typographical termies.
00:22:14 <pikhq> It's still used in Japanese to describe sans-serif fonts.
00:22:35 <pikhq> Mincho should be your serif font.
00:23:20 <oerjan> no, _this_ is gothic http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/?book=1
00:23:24 <pikhq> "Mincho", meaning "the style used in the Ming dynasty".
00:24:23 <pikhq> (when the printing press became common in China)
00:25:14 <pikhq> The type style actually was made in the Song dynasty, and so it's called a Song typeface in Chinese.
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00:28:41 * pikhq would really like to figure out what font *is* being used for Chinese here, because it looks awful.
00:32:49 <pikhq> Kochi mincho is also nice looking.
00:33:15 <pikhq> The only reason I use Takao is because it's more readable at 9pt.
00:33:35 <alise_> Gothic and Mincho, which is superior?
00:33:53 <pikhq> Sans-serif and serif, which is superior?
00:34:32 <oerjan> serious people use serif
00:34:58 <pikhq> http://www.nihongoresources.com/language/writing/typefaces.html Here. You look and see.
00:36:17 <alise_> I have no idea how you put serifs on Japanese.
00:36:46 <alise_> Text book print style, block style, flowing/semi-cursive, and cursive/grass are all nice... >__>
00:36:58 <alise_> But I don't really like Ming or Gothic. Ming is better though.
00:37:03 <alise_> So Gothic is sans-serif, not serif.
00:37:29 <alise_> ttf-kochi-mincho is already the newest version.
00:37:40 <alise_> Also, you said serif :P
00:37:44 <alise_> Then how do I tell fontconfig to use it?
00:37:52 <pikhq> I then corrected myself.
00:38:11 <pikhq> Dunno how to get fontconfig to use it.
00:38:41 <pikhq> The semicursive there looks pretty much like my Japanese handwriting, except written by a neater person. :P
00:38:55 <pikhq> ... And with a brush...
00:39:37 <Mathnerd314> alise_: so I see you've named some language called UniCode?
00:39:44 <alise_> yes; a non-existent one
00:40:12 <pikhq> Grass script is really hard to read.
00:40:17 <Sgeo> alise_ is here!
00:40:26 <Sgeo> And doesn't have an iProduct tag in eir name!
00:42:20 <Mathnerd314> but see, I think all you need for Unicode to be turing-complete is a "duplicate next few codepoints" character
00:43:17 <alise_> I was just using Unicode for the character set.
00:43:50 <Sgeo> Why? Does Unicode already have ifs or something?
00:44:36 <MizardX> {papna} You can write good programs in all sorts of awful languages.
00:47:33 <Sgeo> N1 will get 2.2 first?
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00:58:20 * alise_ notes that conventional proof by contradiction /does/ work in intuitionistic logic
00:59:10 <oerjan> naturally, since not a is defined essentially as "a implies a contradiction"
00:59:12 <fax> uh no it doesn't
00:59:14 <alise_> specifically, the (P -> ~P) -> ~P kind; just not the (~P -> P) -> P kind
00:59:22 <alise_> Theorem reductio_ad_absurdum (P : Prop) : (P -> ~P) -> ~P.
00:59:39 <fax> ummmmm that's reductio_ad_absurdum
00:59:58 <fax> proof by contradiction is ~~P -> P
01:00:06 <alise_> We take a to be true; we show that it cannot be so, thus contradiction. Therefore not a.
01:00:08 <oerjan> i thought those are synonyms
01:00:15 <fax> oerjan, classicaly they are
01:00:19 <alise_> It's a subset of proof by contradiction.
01:00:25 <alise_> It's the /majority/ of proofs by contradiction.
01:00:31 <alise_> And I said /conventional/ proof by contradiction.
01:06:17 <oerjan> proof by majority contradiction.
01:06:25 <alise_> [[Put yourself in this situation: You are a UK hacker writing a program, using, say, curses, where all the constants are written in US English (MAX_COLORS, etc.). Now you want to write a function that returns a random colour. Now consider this paradox: Do you call it randomColour, making the integrity of names suffer? or do you call it randomColor, making it look ugly in your own eyes? Now with ncurses it's not a problem, there are only few variables that
01:06:25 <alise_> you can easily #define and put into void.h. But with OpenGL, there's a crapload of that and I don't know what to do.]]
01:06:28 <alise_> Err... Isn't the answer obvious?
01:06:44 <fax> troll thread
01:07:04 <alise_> /prog/ usually isn't that subtle
01:07:06 <fax> this is a good reply "Oh fuck off you fucking polaczky przeciętniaczky "
01:07:07 <alise_> port-has-set-port-position!? -- R6RS
01:07:21 <alise_> should have used an interrobang
01:08:52 <alise_> lol my browser is totally frozen; too many tabs
01:09:38 <Sgeo> What's the "obvious" answer? Consistancy?
01:09:45 <alise_> also there is an unclosed <i> on /prog/
01:11:46 <Sgeo> http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/05/apples-compiler-policy-may-land-it-in-hot-water-with-ftc.ars
01:12:49 <pikhq> In other news, the FTC still enforces antitrust laws. Who knew?
01:13:17 <alise_> apple aren't in a monopoly position
01:15:09 <alise_> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Phantom_Hoover&curid=3152&diff=17461&oldid=16700
01:16:41 <alise_> You must be logged in and have a valid e-mail address in your preferences to send e-mail to other users.
01:16:47 <alise_> can someone else ask if he is ok?
01:17:23 <Sgeo> Trying to login
01:17:45 <Sgeo> Time for a third account, I guess
01:19:01 <Sgeo> Um, if you're asking, does that mean I shouldn't ask?
01:19:06 <Sgeo> Or should I ask anyway?
01:19:13 <alise_> whoever asks first wins a cookie.
01:19:19 <alise_> and tells the other by pinging them so they don't bother
01:20:11 <Sgeo> "I saw your change to your userpage, and just wanted to be sure, is everything ok?"
01:20:42 * Sgeo hopes it doesn't get filed as spam
01:22:38 <Sgeo> Subject was "Hey. Everything ok?"
01:22:53 <Sgeo> No, Gmail, the copy I had sent to me was not forged
01:24:26 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:24:57 * Sgeo also hopes that the Esolang wiki didn't make it look like the email was sent if it wasn't due to confirmation issues
01:25:02 <Sgeo> Time for Sgeo3 just to be sure
01:31:50 -!- Gregor-L has joined.
01:36:24 <Gregor-L> IREX has free unlimited 3G (for buying eBooks)
01:36:47 <Gregor-L> Gregor has mad hax0r skills (and a sudden immediate need for Internet, as my apartment is flooded and I'm without my usual access lawlz)
01:38:04 <Gregor-L> Actually, for all the suxiness, 1) it's clean water, not sewage or something, 2) they're putting me up in a real nice hotel (modulo lack of wifi) while they fuck with my apartment and 3) it gave me a great excuse to really clean my apartment before I leave it for the summer :P
01:40:41 <Gregor-L> Yes, we all love the magic of laziness :P
01:40:51 <Gregor-L> It gets killed after (IIRC) 30 seconds.
01:41:12 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, patch Haskell so that will always terminate.
01:41:56 <Mathnerd314> or construct a better language where it terminates
01:42:13 <Sgeo> After that, will you donate some of the $Infinite prize to us?
01:42:19 <Sgeo> For having done the impossible?
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01:42:45 <Gregor-L> It's not impossible if you special-case it, just useless.
01:43:15 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: That won't terminate in any language.
01:43:34 <pikhq> However, in non-lazy languages you won't finish constructing the first list.
01:43:49 <pikhq> Except that [1..] is not the *same* list as [1..].
01:44:00 <fax> no it doesn't
01:44:07 <Sgeo> But [1..] was defined in an identical manner to [1..[
01:44:55 <pikhq> "let x = [1..] in x == x" won't terminate either.
01:45:10 <pikhq> Because "==" does not mean what you think it means.
01:45:37 <Sgeo> I think Mathnerd314 wants to change the definition of ==
01:45:49 <Sgeo> So that it uses definition, and not equivance
01:46:00 <pikhq> In a way that it can only work in certain cases.
01:46:54 <pikhq> Won't work for "[1..] == (map (+1) . map (-1) $ [1..])"
01:47:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, but those are defined differently
01:47:26 <Sgeo> So that's the point, I think
01:47:32 <Sgeo> Fewer cases where == doesn't return
01:47:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: But they are obviously equal.
01:47:58 <Sgeo> Define "obvious"
01:48:27 <Sgeo> That doesn't typecheck
01:49:02 <oerjan> sure it does, it just lacks an instance >:)
01:49:32 <Sgeo> I meant Mathnerd314's thing
01:49:35 <Sgeo> Not the == thing
01:49:43 <Sgeo> erm, forget the "not the == thing"
01:50:08 <oerjan> !haskell :t \x -> (+1) . (-1) . x == x
01:50:09 <EgoBot> \x -> (+1) . (-1) . x == x :: (Eq (a -> b), Num (b -> b), Num b) =>
01:50:14 <Sgeo> Wait, forget everything I said during and since "THat doesn't typecheck"
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01:50:22 <oerjan> 02:49 =EgoBot> (a -> b) -> Bool
01:51:15 <oerjan> oh (-1) isn't a section
01:51:40 <oerjan> so you cannot use map (-1) as you'd think
01:53:42 <EgoBot> (+(-1)) :: (Num a) => a -> a
01:53:50 <Sgeo> !haskell :t (`sub` 1)
01:54:11 <EgoBot> flip (-) 1 :: (Num a) => a -> a
01:54:14 <oerjan> !haskell :t (subtract 1)
01:54:16 <EgoBot> (subtract 1) :: (Num t) => t -> t
01:58:08 <Mathnerd314> !haskell :t \x -> ((+1) . (+(-1)) $ x) == x
01:58:10 <EgoBot> \x -> ((+1) . (+(-1)) $ x) == x :: (Num a) => a -> Bool
01:58:21 <Mathnerd314> lambdabot gives much better error messages
01:58:55 <oerjan> i don't know why that wouldn't type
01:59:00 <oerjan> !haskell :t \x -> (+1) . (+(-1)) $ x == x
01:59:15 <Mathnerd314> because ($) has higher precedence than (==)
01:59:34 <oerjan> i know, but i _still_ don't know why it wouldn't type >:)
01:59:42 <Mathnerd314> so it's like @type \x -> (+1) . (+(-1)) $ (x == x)
02:00:10 <oerjan> also, i got no error message in private either
02:00:27 <oerjan> that is of no consequence for :t, it should just ask for Num Bool
02:01:02 <oerjan> apparently it refuses to do that...
02:01:39 <Mathnerd314> yeah, it needs to know what to do fromInteger 1 with
02:10:15 <Mathnerd314> (map (+1) . map (+(-1)) $ [1..]) == [1..] reduces to \x → (+1) . (+(-1)) $ x == x, which then gets reduced by some theorem-proving system to true
02:13:06 * Sgeo wonders if he should play with OpenLaszlo
02:13:20 <Mathnerd314> I think this language comes closest: http://sage.soe.ucsc.edu/
02:14:52 <oerjan> i wouldn't be _very_ surprised if ghc reduces (map (+1) . map (+(-1)) $ [1..]) to [1..] internally
02:15:16 <oerjan> it does the map f . map g = map (f . g) reduction, surely
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02:46:47 <pikhq> oerjan: GHC performs stream fusion.
02:47:08 <pikhq> It transforms *most* composed list functions into a single iteration over the list.
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03:42:38 <Sgeo> "Every hobby requires an outlay of funds."
03:43:47 <calamari> Sgeo: yes, you had to buy lotion & tissues
03:45:38 <uorygl> I use neither lotion nor tissues. I use nothing at all, in fact.
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03:47:33 <calamari> argh I don't know what is wrong with OSS, but this skipping audio is annoying
03:48:01 <cap11235> Why are you using OSS instead of ALSA? Also, what kind of sound card/chip do you have?
03:48:15 <calamari> because alsa doesn't seem to be working
03:48:19 <uorygl> You know, hardware description languages are the worst ever. There's no dynamic allocation of memory whatsoever; the amount of memory a program uses is constant. There's no flow control, either; everything runs all the time.
03:48:26 <pikhq> cap11235: OSSv4 is a usable replacement of ALSA.
03:48:29 <uorygl> And it even always reads from and writes to the same place.
03:48:31 <pikhq> calamari: Get you OSSv4.
03:49:19 <cap11235> pikhq: Does it have an ALSA to OSS layer?
03:49:33 <uorygl> The benefit of an HDL, of course, is that it runs really fast.
03:49:40 <pikhq> Of course, *everything* has an OSS backend anyways.
03:49:59 <calamari> cap11235: Aureal Semiconductor Vortex 2 (rev fe)
03:50:05 <pikhq> Flash *still doesn't support ALSA*.
03:50:20 <cap11235> Now I am even more despondant about Adobe...
03:51:10 <calamari> cool, my chipset is on the supported list
03:51:29 <pikhq> I may need to try OSSv4 some time.
03:51:48 <cap11235> pikhq: The more you know.... %%%%%%%%%%?
03:52:25 <pikhq> No, there's Unicode. Your IRC client may not be able to use it, though.
03:53:41 <pikhq> いいえ、ユニコードがある。でも、あなたのIRCクライアントは使えなさそう。
03:54:01 <cap11235> I guess it just didn't like my character. Though it worked in Firefox...
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04:00:14 <cap11235> So, what would you say the best known esolang after BF is?
04:00:51 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
04:01:08 <cap11235> What I want to do is write a forth enviornment for some esolang, but it needs to be able to run arbitrary code at runtime.
04:01:38 <cap11235> I could make a BF interpreter in vanilla BF, then add some self modifying capability, but the overhead would be pretty bad.
04:03:43 <cap11235> Hmmm, I think I could just sort of translate BF commands to apply to a stack instead of the tape...
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04:06:20 <calamari> apparently that list is wrong.. hardware not recognized
04:06:34 <cap11235> Have you just tried googling your chipset?
04:08:32 <cap11235> What happens when you run 'modprobe snd_au8830' as root?
04:09:19 <calamari> FATAL: Module snd_au8830 not found.
04:09:36 <calamari> that's strange, because I'm sure that a module siilar to that used to be there
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04:11:19 <calamari> not sure why it thinks I have a usb soundcard
04:11:24 <coppro> poll: should I learn vi or emacs this summer?
04:12:08 <calamari> as a bonus some of your vi knowledge will help in less :)
04:12:35 <cap11235> I use emacs for programming, and vim for everything else.
04:13:09 <cap11235> Vi is pretty simple to learn, I think.
04:13:25 <cap11235> Emacs is hellish, but nothing is better than Inferior Haskell Mode...
04:13:43 <calamari> [DUO] /lib/modules/2.6.28-18-generic>where *8830*
04:13:43 <calamari> ./kernel/sound/pci/au88x0/snd-au8830.ko
04:13:56 <calamari> maybe I just need to downgrade my kernel to get my audio working again
04:14:23 <cap11235> You could go to the kernel source directory and run 'make modules_install'
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04:15:31 <cap11235> I know you can use modprobe with a path, but it might require some extra flags.
04:15:40 <calamari> that's for the wrong kernel tho
04:16:19 <calamari> Linux DUO 2.6.31-20-generic #58-Ubuntu SMP Fri Mar 12 04:38:19 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux
04:16:49 <cap11235> Well, try modprobe'ing it anyway. In the worst case, you just reboot.
04:17:51 <cap11235> If modprobe doesn't throw any errors, it should be fine, I think.
04:18:19 <pikhq> cap11235: That's insmod.
04:18:59 <calamari> insmod: error inserting '/lib/modules/2.6.28-18-generic/kernel/sound/pci/au88x0/snd-au8830.ko': -1 Invalid module format
04:19:06 <calamari> doesn't look like it wants me to do that
04:19:11 <cap11235> Do you have apt-file installed?
04:19:21 <pikhq> I... Do believe you have a 2.4 insmod.
04:19:24 <pikhq> Which is a solid WTF.
04:19:56 <cap11235> apt-get apt-file, then run 'apt-file update' as root
04:20:25 <pikhq> You would do well to use modules for your kernel.
04:21:07 <pikhq> Yes, and he's using modules for a different such kernel.
04:21:46 <cap11235> Yeah, but the 2.6.31 doesn't seem to have the module for his audio.
04:22:00 <calamari> pikhq: nah.. just that the kernel/sound directory is missing in my 2.6.31
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04:24:31 <calamari> okay apt-file is done updating
04:25:07 <cap11235> "apt-file search snd-au8830.ko" as root
04:25:35 <calamari> oh.. you can use packages.ubuntu.com to do that too :)
04:26:02 <calamari> nice, though.. lots of results
04:26:45 <calamari> interesting.. seems like it sound be installing.. checking
04:27:50 <calamari> err that was not coherent, sorry
04:28:03 <cap11235> You are installing linux-image-2.6.31-14-generic?
04:30:16 <calamari> anyhow, upgrading.. it's possible that the ossv4 install is what wiped out the modules
04:30:32 <calamari> I had sound before, it was just crappy
04:31:15 <cap11235> Well, we will see. Will you go with OSS or ALSA after?
04:31:40 <calamari> I never had any trouble with alsa until recently, dunno what happened
04:32:04 <cap11235> Maybe pulseaudio was just being a bitch?
04:32:10 <calamari> the only way I could get audio to play was oss, otherwise it was just noise
04:32:37 <calamari> I tried uninstalling pulseaudio and using esound instead, and neither
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05:16:27 <Sgeo> This chain mail can't even decide if it wants you to pass it on to 5 or 10 people
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06:06:20 <bsmntbombdood> til chain mail over the usps 1) used to exist and 2) is now illegal
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07:29:05 * Sgeo :( at Network Headache becoming unimplemented
07:29:17 <Sgeo> I should make an Erlang implementation!
07:47:48 <pikhq> We should use Chinese characters for writing everything. (我 should 使 漢 字 for 書ing 毎物.) Why? Because I said so dammit. (Why? Because 私 言d so dammit!)
07:48:08 <pikhq> In other news, it is late and I am moderately silly and should go to bed.
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07:58:56 <Sgeo> Actually turning my computer off tonight.. it seems a bit hot
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11:42:30 <Gracenotes> my paper about Turing machines http://bit.ly/cL93k3
11:42:50 <Gracenotes> 23 pages, and I'm still gauging how finishing it screwed up my sleep schedule
11:43:17 <oerjan> completely, or just a lot
11:45:10 <fizzie> I've just spent the last night writing a case note on the SCO v. Novell case for the "Law in Network Society" course. Not that one less than sleepy night will have any long-lasting effects, but right now the tiredness. Especially with that particular topic.
11:46:09 <Gracenotes> oerjan: not sure. I might still be able to recover, but I woke up at 3 AM (3.75 hours ago) and I'm just going with that for now
11:46:18 <fizzie> Courteous of SCO to keep doing the insane, though; their latest (April 27th) filings means I'm oh-so-topical.
11:46:33 <Gracenotes> the paper does have pretty diagrams though. if you like visualizations of tape or nicely formatted state diagrams
11:46:37 <oerjan> SCO, or suing a dead horse
11:47:23 <oerjan> oh i guess it needs to be in finnish
11:48:41 * oerjan notes that SCO "dead horse" gives about 3410 google hits.
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11:49:00 <ais523> fizzie: that isn't the latest filing any more
11:49:08 <ais523> the latest is about them selling off lots and lots of little stuff
11:49:13 <ais523> like domain names, laptops and forklift trucks
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11:49:50 <fizzie> ais523: That's part of the bankrutpcy case, though, not SCO v. Novell.
11:50:19 <fizzie> Though like I complained a moment ago; "One has to wonder about the whole bankruptcy mechanism. I was under the impression that the idea was that the company's creditors would get, in a reasonably fair manner, as much out of the company as possible; I'm not sure how well that is served by feeding $100k/month to some sort of "crisis management" company."
11:51:13 <fizzie> I had to focus a bit; summarizing the whole SCO story in three pages would have been a bit too ambitious, so I just covered the parts related to the "who owns Unix" question.
11:53:27 <fizzie> It has aspects of the farcical; after losing in court, they appeal and demand a jury trial; the court of appeals surprisingly-ishly agrees and grants that; the jury unanimously says the same thing the court did; so now they want either a special overrule-the-jury judgement, or a new jury, because "the jury simply got it wrong" (direct quote).
11:54:28 <fizzie> It's possible they're just not very good losers.
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11:57:03 <fizzie> The most recent thing of list of sold stuff is a funny read too, though. Purchaser: "Deseret Industries", "Canon Copier - not functional", consideration: $0, "donated".
11:57:33 <fizzie> They've also sold 2 boxes of tape for $399 via eBay to a "Bouz1956".
11:58:05 <fizzie> And donated 50 file cabinets to "Farm Equipment business".
11:58:57 <ais523> the Supreme Court made a filing in that case recently, btw, giving SCO more time to respond to Novell's case
11:59:21 <ais523> why are they donating when they're in bankruptcy, I wonder?
12:00:21 <fizzie> Possibly no-one would have paid them for a broken copier, and junking it would've actually cost money.
12:00:50 <fizzie> Though I would assume you could get at least nominal compensation for 50 file cabinets.
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12:31:59 <Ilari> That encoding: Split the program to segments, splitting at '[' and ']'. There will be 2k+1 segments (possibly empty), where k is number of loops.
12:33:03 <Ilari> Then for each segment, write it as base-6 number (least-signficant first, using some mapping of 6 remaining instructions to digits).
12:34:45 <Ilari> Then add (6^(l+1)-1)/5 (where l is length of segment) to number obtained in order to make encodings of different length segments unique.
12:35:23 <Ilari> Every possible different segment gets different number and every non-negative number corresponds to some segment
12:36:46 <Ilari> Then take 1st (LSB) bit of 1st segment, 1st bit of 2nd segment, ..., 1st bit of 2k+1st segment, 2nd bit of 1st segment, 2nd bit of 2nd segment and so on. Concatenate bits in this order to get new number (X_2)
12:36:50 <oerjan> and? you still haven't gotten to the hard part...
12:37:58 <oerjan> actually, still not...
12:38:23 <Ilari> Make ordered tree that has root node and node for every loop. For nested loops, node for nested loop is child of node for nesting loop. Encode this tree using bijection to nonnegative integers (I haven't worked this out yet) to get X_1.
12:39:06 <Ilari> Actually, that X_2 has 1st bit of 1st segment as LSB (the order goes that way).
12:39:47 <Ilari> Then take 1st bit of X_1, 1st bit of X_2, 2nd bit of X_1, 2nd bit of X_2 (and so on), concatenating (1st bit of X_1 winds up as LSB). Resulting X, the encoding of program.
12:40:21 <Ilari> As said, I haven't fully solved encoding ordered trees...
12:41:24 <oerjan> that X_1 encoding is inefficient if segment lengths vary widely, as discussed yesterday.
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12:42:24 <oerjan> i tried to correct that 1 to 2 at _least_ twice O_O
12:42:35 <oerjan> i have _no_ idea how it got through :D
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12:43:26 <Ilari> Encoding Lost Kingdom, with any reasonable way to get X_1, X_2 will be much larger, yielding final number with 80M-90M digits...
12:43:40 <oerjan> you know, X_1 is just an encoding of the [ and ] only
12:43:52 <Ilari> oerjan: Yes, it is.
12:44:35 <oerjan> it is possible that one of the already used methods will be good enough for that
12:44:46 <oerjan> there isn't that much extra to blow things up
12:45:32 <Ilari> There are C_k (kth catalan number) different structures for program with k loops...
12:47:04 <Ilari> That can be used to simplify(?) problem to encoding ordered trees to encoding ordered trees with k nodes to [0, C_k - 1].
12:47:38 <oerjan> also, X_1 will likely be much smaller than X_2, again wasting 0 bits
12:48:10 <Ilari> One could vary spacing of X_1 bits (as long as the positions form fixed sequence).
12:48:31 <Ilari> But that can get at most almost half of the bits.
12:48:51 <oerjan> we already have the triangular method for combining two numbers
12:51:06 <oerjan> hm it's possible that _too_ is actually unbalanced when the size difference is large.
12:51:45 <oerjan> the combined number is on the order of (m+n)^2/2
12:51:46 <fizzie> Ilari: Also a minor nit; you say "add (6^(l+1)-1)/5" -- so the length 0 segment maps to (6^(0+1)-1)/5 = 1, the 6 possible length 1 segments to numbers starting from (6^(1+1)-1)/5 = 7, etc; I guess you mean without the "+1" in the exponent?
12:54:09 <oerjan> mn is about what you'd get by concatenating the bits, this is twice that for equal numbers but much larger if m is 1, say
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12:55:54 <oerjan> in fact the triangular method may have about the _same_ size as the bit interleaving method, come to think of it.
12:56:21 <oerjan> for one number very small, both waste about the number of bits of the other
12:56:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you want to generalize the so-called "triangular" method formulas to some sort of hyperpyramidal method so that it combines N numbers at once? That sounds like it'd be funky.
12:56:51 <oerjan> fizzie: already did that
12:56:59 <fizzie> Oh, I had missed that.
12:57:43 <oerjan> never looked much at reversing it, that would seem to involve nth roots at least
12:58:25 <oerjan> C(x1+x2+...+xn,2) + C(x1+...+x(n-1),2) + ... + C(x1+x2, 2) + x1
12:58:41 <oerjan> *C(x1+x2+...+xn,n) + C(x1+...+x(n-1),n-1) + ... + C(x1+x2, 2) + x1
13:01:07 <Ilari> It appears that triangular numbers might be sightly smaller (at most 1 bit difference per combining).
13:02:20 <ais523> what's the purpose of this discussion, btw? finding a way to compress Lost Kingdom as far as possible?
13:02:26 <Ilari> If numbers are approximately equal, they come even. So unbalanced case is the better case.
13:02:58 <Ilari> ais523: Bijection of BF with natural numbers.
13:03:08 <oerjan> Ilari: no, unbalanced is horrible for both, assuming you'd want the combined number of bits to be approx. the sum
13:03:37 <oerjan> or do you mean just the difference between triangular and interleaving
13:05:13 <Ilari> Actually, there might be more difference. 1st number being 2^100 and 2nd being 2^500 would give 1002 bit number with interleaving. The triangular number would be 1/2 * (2^500 + 2^100) * (2^500 + 2^100 - 1) + 2^500. This is approximately 1/2 * 2^1000 = 2^999. So 2 bit difference.
13:06:27 <oerjan> what about if one number is about square root of the other...
13:06:59 <oerjan> (so as far from both the "one tiny" and "about equal" cases as possible)
13:07:31 <oerjan> interleaving, 401 i assume
13:08:21 <oerjan> !haskell 1/2 * (2^100 + 2^200) * (2^100 + 2^200 - 1) + 2^200
13:08:24 <EgoBot> 1.2911249390434543e120
13:08:37 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 2 $ 1/2 * (2^100 + 2^200) * (2^100 + 2^200 - 1) + 2^200
13:08:58 <oerjan> so still not much difference
13:10:11 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 2 $ 1/2 * (2^500 + 2^1000) * (2^500 + 2^1000 - 1) + 2^1000
13:11:09 <fizzie> You're the necromather, why don't you figure out something that gives you the sum of their sizes?
13:11:36 <fizzie> (Okay, so I just wanted to get to use the word "necromather".)
13:11:52 <oerjan> i had that fibonacci thing, but it has a logBase phi 2 overhead
13:11:56 <Ilari> For hyperpyramidal thing, I get difference in order of k log_2 k bits... Which would be about 650kb with 42k segments (Lost Kingdom-sized program)...
13:12:54 <oerjan> well the initial C(x1+...+xn, n) term obviously dominates
13:12:58 <Ilari> Not a lot of difference, considering that number will have 150M-160M bits anyway...
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13:16:18 <Ilari> So variable spacing in interleaving X_1 and X_2 saves much more (Easily 100Mb with Lost Kingdom) than using hyperpyramidals instead of simple bit interleaving (hardly even 1Mb).
13:16:56 <Ilari> And bit interleaving is probably way faster.
13:23:09 <fizzie> Bit interleaving is perhaps a bit (no pun intended) inelegent to write in the usual arithmetic operations provided. At least compared to the triangles.
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13:56:38 <base3> does anyone know if there's a freenode channel for discussion of literate programming?
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15:05:04 <AnMaster> ais523, hi there, I don't remember if you told me (or if I even asked) about delay simulation back when I asked about vhdl simulation for linux several weeks ago. ghdl seems to only do "logic" simulation with no delay (which is of course also useful).
15:05:23 <ais523> AnMaster: it does delay simulation, but you need to write the delays into the source
15:05:30 <ais523> e.g. a <= b OR c after 10 ns
15:05:52 <ais523> that's how other delay simulators work too, just the commercial ones have tools to automatically write all the delays into the source
15:06:00 <ais523> and that's commercially sensitive information, pretty obviously
15:06:15 <AnMaster> what about delay simulation as in "delay of this stuff from the syntheis program output" kind of stuff?
15:06:36 <AnMaster> ais523, so those tend to be windows only?
15:06:47 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, they mostly run on Linux too, they're just very expensive
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15:07:09 <ais523> presumably enough commercial microchip design companies use Linux that it's worth supporting it on that
15:07:45 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't the manufacture of the FPGA interested in selling the hardware rather than the development software?
15:07:56 <ais523> nah, they make money from both
15:08:20 <ais523> normally there's a crappy free version of the dev software, and a very expensive professional version that contains all the features that businesses actually need, like delay annotation
15:10:33 <AnMaster> ais523, what about universities? There should be an interest in getting students familiar with your products rather than those from the competitors. Looks like conflicting interests there when it comes to deciding what the price should be
15:10:51 <ais523> AnMaster: universities generally get copies for free, that's how I got mine
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15:11:30 <AnMaster> right, but students don't spent all the time in the lab, wouldn't it make sense to be able to do some such work from home as well and so on
15:12:24 <AnMaster> ais523, also ghdl seems strange in some respects. For example what is the point of that work-obj93.cf file...
15:12:38 <AnMaster> And it looks like it should be very hard to make ghdl behave nicely together with makefiles
15:12:41 <ais523> AnMaster: VHDL's compilation method is bizarre
15:12:53 <ais523> because you can define one entity in more than one way
15:13:13 <AnMaster> not fully about the reasons for it though
15:13:15 <ais523> I think it's designed to allow hot-swapping bits of the program
15:13:39 <ais523> you'd have, say, a delay-annotated architecture as an autogenerated second architecture for your entities
15:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, the reason I heard was "sometimes you can't synthesise your original variant, so you write another alternative one"
15:14:01 <AnMaster> there are some issues with that reason too though
15:14:09 <AnMaster> as in, why not just replace the old one instead
15:14:29 <ais523> often you have a synthesis design that can't be simulated, and a simulation design that can't be synthesised
15:14:33 <ais523> both bought from a third partyt
15:14:51 <ais523> because the simulation design looks like C or an imperative language like that
15:15:07 <ais523> and the synthesis design is along the lines of "set bit 123 to 1, set bit 124 to 0, set bit 125 to 1..." which is no use to anyone
15:15:16 <AnMaster> also wtf at the file name here (from ghdl tutorial, just to check that the install works): e~hello.o
15:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, wouldn't it be "set bit 123 to bit 2 xor bit 43" or such? or what do you mean
15:16:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I mean the individual control bits inside the FPGA
15:17:12 <AnMaster> ais523, but isn't that more like the binary file? As in, it isn't vhdl any more then
15:17:14 <ais523> this stuff's all deliberately undocumented, just to add to the fun, so you /have/ to buy the code from a third-party rather than writing it yourself
15:17:20 <ais523> and yes, it's basically just a binary file
15:17:45 <ais523> although sometimes they get converted to ASCII and it's just a long list of numbers separated by commas
15:17:52 <AnMaster> ais523, someone should make an open source fpga or such, or at least a well documented one.
15:18:09 <ais523> setup costs are too high
15:18:15 <ais523> it'd cost millions to get the things manufactured
15:18:26 <ais523> but yes, I don't understand the FPGA market at all
15:18:28 <AnMaster> presumably that would actually be a competitive advantage, you can claim you, unlike all others, don't do vendor lock-in
15:18:49 <ais523> AnMaster: effectively that would be vendor lock-in, on the basis that all the /other/ vendors are locked in and won't accept your programs
15:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well, sure, but this avoids bitrot presumably. Even if the vendor stops maintaining software to work with very old no longer produced FPGAs, third parties could still do it
15:20:16 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it would be hilarious to put you in the same room as a manager in an FPGA company
15:20:28 <ais523> eventually you'd give up talking to each other because you didn't speak the same language
15:20:58 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, I don't understand ghdl's compilation procedure, as in. It makes no sense at all
15:21:18 <ais523> let's just say, it makes a lot more sense than the commercial ones, and leave it at that
15:21:23 <AnMaster> and how on earth does one make this work with a makefile
15:21:34 <ais523> you just do the -a -e and so on in order
15:22:01 <AnMaster> ais523, what about that work-ob93.cf?
15:22:18 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems to break make -j2 if you have many files for ghdl to compile in a project
15:22:22 <ais523> AnMaster: everything in VHDL is namespaced
15:22:28 <ais523> and "work" is the default namespace
15:22:33 <ais523> compiling something puts it /into/ that namespace, permanently
15:22:43 <ais523> so you can reference it from other VHDL files in the same directory
15:22:57 <ais523> therefore, obviously, parallel make doesn't make sense unless you carefully separate the namespaces in advance
15:23:24 <AnMaster> ais523, so things need to be compiled in the right order? What would happen if I ran ghdl -a on a file that uses another one, before I ran it on that other file
15:23:56 <ais523> IIRC it's like compiling and linking; so long as all the entity declarations are available, you can do -a on everything then -e on everything
15:24:10 <ais523> but it doesn't work if you do -a -e on each file individually
15:24:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I was thinking something like ghdl on each file to create some intermediate format (could be done in parallel) then linking (not parallel of course)
15:24:29 <AnMaster> but this seems to completely break here
15:24:48 <ais523> AnMaster: no, the analysis is just basically looking for signatures
15:24:55 <ais523> and the elaboration looks at the actual code
15:25:05 <AnMaster> ais523, so that shared file is only touched by -a or?
15:25:37 <ais523> here's a nice mnemonic: -a looks at the entities, -e looks at the architectures
15:25:45 <ais523> and I think it's written by -a and read by -e
15:26:05 <AnMaster> that will be one very messy makefile still
15:26:35 <AnMaster> you can't make the .cf file depend on anything properly
15:26:42 <ais523> now, for added fun, the commercial tools generate makefiles, then run them via cygwin
15:26:46 <ais523> at least, the Xilinx ones do
15:26:53 <AnMaster> because if two files were changed that will not do the right thing...
15:27:32 <ais523> even more fun, because presumably they've paid Cygnus for a license for all this
15:27:41 <ais523> (Cygwin is GPL if you don't pay, license of your choice if you do)
15:28:04 <AnMaster> ais523, but what about the software in cygwin? cygnus doesn't own gnu make and so on
15:28:09 <ais523> current theory: the tools date from before Windows existed
15:28:22 <ais523> and I actually don't know, maybe it isn't GNU make they're using, but some other make
15:28:35 <AnMaster> why do you think the tools are that old btw?
15:29:05 <ais523> I can't think of any other plausible explanation
15:29:15 <ais523> also, the fact that they don't run properly on 64-bit systems or windows 7
15:29:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean they were written for *nix?
15:29:21 <ais523> we had to set up a Windows XP VM just to be able to use them
15:29:27 <ais523> yes, I think they were originally written for *nix
15:29:40 <ais523> which would explain the Linux support, and the arbitrary and unexpected use of cygwin
15:29:49 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a 64-bit version, but it's missing loads of features
15:30:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and the 32-bit version doesn't run on 64-bit windows?
15:30:41 <AnMaster> ais523, the only reason for that would be that they use 16-bit code...
15:30:52 <ais523> wait, actually it does, but many of its features are missing if you do
15:31:06 <ais523> possibly only in later versions of windows, though
15:31:06 <AnMaster> since you can no longer run such code when in long mode on x86_64
15:31:14 <AnMaster> oh another ghdl wtf: ldd indicates that the compiled program links against libgnat...
15:31:24 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't surprise me
15:31:31 <ais523> VHDL was intentionally designed close to ADA
15:31:40 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if some of the libraries were, as a result, virtually identical
15:31:48 <ais523> and thus linking against libgnat was easier than rewriting it
15:31:58 <AnMaster> which when you consider it, is even more wtf
15:32:00 <ais523> oh, that's so you can output the wave file compressed
15:32:10 <ais523> which is needed, considering how big and repetitive the things are
15:32:36 <ais523> (ghdl's major use is to run the resulting program to produce a wave file, then look at it on gtkwave or something)
15:32:40 <AnMaster> oh and now to figure out which files a make clean target would remove. I still haven't figured out how to properly do dependencies for generated files...
15:32:52 <AnMaster> presumably it would be a timestamp file for every file to make it work
15:32:56 <ais523> AnMaster: just delete the entire directory and restore the source from backup
15:33:14 <AnMaster> ghdl --clean? Do I dare ask what that does...
15:33:44 <ais523> it's described as "remove generated files", presumably it's the inverse of the compile process
15:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, wait a second, why restore? Doesn't ghdl support out of tree builds? Or at least separate object file directory or such
15:34:24 <AnMaster> bbiab, phone rang... annoyingly
15:34:31 <ais523> AnMaster: the concept of "out of tree builds" probably doesn't exist in VHDL generally
15:34:56 <ais523> the commercial tools make it rather unclear that anything exists besides the project, source and generated files and binaries and etc are all bundled together in arbitrary entities
15:35:05 <ais523> and you have to look at the directory structure by hand to figure out how it's done
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15:44:05 <AnMaster> ais523, it does make version control somewhat annoying presumably
15:44:21 <ais523> they come with hand-rolled version control
15:44:27 <ais523> which is basically a menu option to make a checkpoint
15:44:34 <ais523> which spends around half an hour backing up the entire project
15:44:53 <ais523> I /think/ it's actually just bundling it all into a .tgz behind the scenes, and the huge length of time is because it's backing up thousands of binaries as well as the sources
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15:52:57 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, when does a file need to be re-analysed?
15:53:16 <ais523> when you change the entities in it, I think
15:53:20 <ais523> I just always reanalyse it, it saves trouble
15:53:24 <ais523> and it's not like it takes that long
15:53:50 <AnMaster> are non-manual incremental builds even feasible at all?
15:56:25 <AnMaster> ais523, how does programs decide which of the defined implementations (or whatever the term is) of a given entity to use?
15:56:33 <AnMaster> programs as in simulations and synthesis
15:56:49 <ais523> presumably there's some way to specify one, otherwise it picks one arbitrarily
15:57:00 <ais523> but so far I've never been able to specify one, just had to go with the one it happened to use
15:57:05 <AnMaster> how often have you used multiple implementations?
15:58:10 <ais523> only when told to by the teachers to prove I could
15:58:30 <AnMaster> I presume it would be interesting to test multiple ones to compare that they do the same thing (for all valid inputs if combinatorial at least, a bit harder if you have something with state)
15:58:31 <ais523> otherwise, there isn't much of a point unless you're doing automated annotation, etc, or have to buy simulation and synthesis implementations from a third party
15:58:47 <ais523> or worse, one synthesis and three simulation implementations designed for different sorts of simulations
15:59:10 <AnMaster> how do you get 3 different ones?
15:59:26 <AnMaster> two I can imagine: with/without delay
15:59:36 <ais523> there's more than one sort of delay you can measure
15:59:50 <ais523> sort-of "delay in theory" vs. "delay with this particular place-and-route"
16:00:12 <ais523> the second is basically like profile-guided optimisation, except instead of optimising the compile with the results from a run, you simulate the source with the results from a compile
16:01:09 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you do delay in theory without knowing the routing?
16:01:20 <ais523> it's approximate I think
16:01:25 <AnMaster> do you just consider the delay in gates, but not in wires?
16:01:41 <ais523> not sure, it's not like there's any documentation on how the stuff /works/
16:02:12 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems useless if you don't know what it actually simulates.
16:02:28 <ais523> oh, the info's bound to be available somewhere
16:02:44 <ais523> probably by phoning up a friend you have at Xilinx and asking them directly, that's how we got most of the actual useful information we use
16:03:31 <AnMaster> ais523, don't they wonder at any point: "Hmm, will this crappy stuff make us look bad?"
16:03:38 <ais523> theory: this is meta-job security, people making sure that if they're fired from Xilinx or Altera they'll always be able to get a job just consulting at companies to explain htf you use their products
16:03:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because it's par for the course
16:03:53 <AnMaster> from what I heard so far I concluded to avoid that brand if possible
16:03:53 <ais523> they look bad, but not any worse than any of their competitorss
16:05:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and yet no one tried to increase their market share by making themselves look better than their competitors?
16:05:22 <ais523> no, because their customers care more about features than usability
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16:05:52 <ais523> for some reason management care more about the advertised list of features when buying hideously expensive microchip synthesisers/simulators
16:06:01 <ais523> rather than the actual usability for the employees who have to use the things
16:06:20 <AnMaster> and what do we learn from this? I think one of the things may be "free market is yet again proved not to work"
16:07:19 <AnMaster> ais523, are most of those feature actually that useful though?
16:07:30 <ais523> no, what did you expect?
16:07:55 <ais523> half are actually counterproductive, in that you're told to use the feature rather than doing it the way you'd do it by hand without the feature, which would have been easier
16:08:19 <AnMaster> ais523, what do big companies like, say, IBM or such do then? Don't they at least have a bit more sense.
16:08:37 <ais523> no, they just make their own internal documentation for other people's products, I imagine
16:08:55 <ais523> then claim ISO 9000 compliance as a side effect
16:09:06 <AnMaster> why did I came to think of bankstar suddenly
16:09:53 <AnMaster> ais523, what is ISO 9000? Or was that just a random number?
16:10:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it's basically a pointless "standard"
16:10:19 <fizzie> ISO 9000 is a family of stuff, mostly about having business processes that are all documented to the tiniest detail.
16:10:22 <ais523> which companies claim compliance to
16:10:31 <ais523> and yes, it's about documenting everything you do and always doing it the same way
16:10:34 <fizzie> It is also all about Quality.
16:10:44 <ais523> regardless of what that process actually /is/, or whether it makes sense
16:11:05 <ais523> managers think it's very important, although none of them can explain why
16:11:31 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, I have a hard time seeing how FPGA vendors can enforce vendor lock in, after all VHDL is an ISO (or was it IEEE?) standard.
16:11:47 <ais523> AnMaster: they don't lock in the language, but the source
16:11:56 <ais523> imagine if you had to rent your libc from a commercial vendor
16:12:17 <AnMaster> ais523, find , -name '*.fileext' to find the vhdl files? then import it into another system from another vendor?
16:12:22 <ais523> hmm, a better example would be if libc was open-source, but you had to rent a whole bunch of random libraries
16:12:39 <fizzie> Find from the comma-directory.
16:12:56 <ais523> and no, you can't do that; partly because the files are massively obfuscated, partly because they're written in incredibly system-specific ways, partly because you have to agree to a licence not to do that, and partly because of the insane DRM involved over the whole process
16:13:00 <AnMaster> ais523, rent? Do you pay per month for those FPGA synthesisers and such!?
16:13:17 <ais523> for the synthesisers, you pay per version, effectively
16:13:27 <ais523> (I don't pay, because of the free versions given to universities)
16:13:31 <ais523> you rent the libraries
16:13:41 <AnMaster> ais523, but if you write your code in vhdl I can't see how you just move the files elsewhere
16:13:45 <ais523> things like multipliers you normally get for free (because the open-source versions are just as good)
16:14:06 <ais523> but things like ethernet modules you mostly just get the binaries, and they're specific to a specific version of a specific processor
16:14:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: You write your code in C, so you can switch operating systems with abandon, right?
16:14:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, okay, C itself is a bit annoyingly limited, rather more like POSIX
16:14:51 <ais523> AnMaster: let's just say, there aren't things like ethernet libraries in the VHDL standard
16:14:54 <AnMaster> that way you can go to any *nix vendor in theory (sure I admit there are some compat issues, and there are always bugs)
16:15:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what about open source vhdl for that?
16:15:16 <ais523> open-source vhdl exists
16:15:25 <ais523> but the chip designers go out of their way to not give you the info needed to use it
16:15:42 <fizzie> OpenCores has quite a collection, I believe. Never had had an occasion to browse, though.
16:15:43 <AnMaster> ais523, sure you need to interface the pins manually, but a lot of the stuff, like building ethernet frames would be vendor independent, no?
16:15:55 <ais523> e.g. I tried and failed for two weeks to discover which pins on the chip were connected to which features on the demo board of the demo board we have
16:16:23 <ais523> fizzie: I'm an OpenCores member, partly as a protest against all this BS
16:16:39 <ais523> although OpenCores is pretty wtfy itself, it just manages to be a lot less wtfy than the Xilinx (and presumably Altera) stuff
16:16:50 <ais523> AnMaster: you misparsed the sentence
16:16:50 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, where did you get the ethernet hardware from? The same vendor?
16:17:00 <ais523> yes, it was connected to the chip, physically
16:17:04 <ais523> so we could tell it was working
16:17:08 <ais523> but we still don't know how to use it
16:17:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well you wouldn't have a demo board in real production hardware would you?
16:18:10 <ais523> no, you wouldn't; except, to add to the fun, the tools that you use to create all the ethernet stuff, etc, generate it assuming that you're using the same connections as on the demo board
16:18:29 <AnMaster> in which case you could take a third party ethernet hardware (the contact and presumably some other things, I don't know exactly how much of the ethernet hardware can be done in an FPGA...) and just build your own
16:19:16 <ais523> that would be pretty expensive just to build the hardware to connect the FPGA to the ethernet hardware
16:19:25 <ais523> you'd need to do things like generate a circuit board, etc
16:19:42 <ais523> and FPGAs have pins so dense that you can't do it by hand, you pretty much need an automatic multilayer circuit board maker machine
16:19:54 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't there already ethernet hardware out there from third parties?
16:20:13 <ais523> AnMaster: of course, it's connecting it to the FPGA that's the issue, not the hardware itself
16:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, well, a third party one would most probably come with docs (since there would be no other way for users to use it, right?)
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16:21:03 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd be surprised
16:21:14 <ais523> for third-party hardware, the docs have ranged all the way from brilliant to useless
16:21:35 <ais523> the normal way to use the hardware with useless docs is to find decent docs from a competitor's product that does the same thing, then use those
16:21:44 <ais523> because they all try to be pin-compatible with each other
16:22:19 <ais523> thousands of them, one for each sort of hardware component you could imagine
16:22:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well that should simplify things, there is *bound* to be someone else who already interfaced this informal standard and who made something open source for it
16:22:46 <AnMaster> at least for the more common components
16:22:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the problem is, it's pairs of components you worry about
16:23:04 <ais523> as in, that hardware + that FPGA
16:23:21 <ais523> most individual pairs haven't been done yet (most people can neither afford to work with FPGAs, nor put up with them even if they could afford it)
16:23:30 <AnMaster> well okay, you have to do the pin layout anyway, surely most of the time you need some custom hardware anyway
16:23:34 <ais523> and instructions for that sort of thing have a rather short half-life
16:23:48 <ais523> because features keep being changed or breaking at random or moved to different programs, etc
16:23:54 <ais523> in the FPGA programming software
16:24:21 <AnMaster> ais523, so okay, a lot of the ethenet example is device independent, couldn't you do something like driver + pin_mapper, where you just had to write the latter bit
16:24:39 <AnMaster> which would just be some short file listing which pins you mapped to what for the ethernet hardware
16:24:48 <ais523> the problem is that you're massively discouraged from doing that bit
16:24:56 <ais523> if you want a bit of fun, have a look at what the pin mapper software actually /is/
16:25:00 <ais523> it has a massive and almost unusable GUI
16:25:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I invented the word "pin mapper" here
16:25:20 <ais523> last time I used it, I clicked on things at random, then figured out where its output file was, then looked at the format and edited it by hand, more or less
16:25:21 <AnMaster> I didn't know it referred to a specific existing software
16:25:25 <ais523> amusingly, the output file was short and simple
16:25:30 <ais523> AnMaster: it is specific existing software
16:25:36 <ais523> with a GUI that fills the entire screen, and uses all of it
16:25:45 <ais523> and where changing anything requires going through two nested dialog boxes
16:25:54 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway an FPGA would often be pretty useless if you can't interface your own custom hardware as well. Which would presumably include things like custom sensor devices or whatever
16:25:56 <ais523> I completely fail to understand how it can be /that/ complex, btw
16:26:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that the trend nowadays is for FPGAs to be used standalone and communicate via ethernet or I2C or whatever with the other components
16:26:28 <ais523> which seems bizarre to me
16:26:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what I was thinking about was more something like: #define ETH_TX pin1732
16:26:45 <ais523> presumably, you'd use an ASIC if you were using enough of them to actually be worth shipping in a commercial project
16:26:53 <AnMaster> then that would be used for the generic driver
16:26:56 <ais523> AnMaster: that's pretty much what the .hcf file it's editing is
16:27:01 <ais523> although it's a different format, ofc
16:27:08 <ais523> (not VHDL, it's in its own format)
16:28:20 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't I2C rather slow?
16:28:36 <ais523> depends on what you're using it for
16:28:48 <ais523> hardware that does anything but calculating tends to be intrinsically rather slow
16:28:56 <AnMaster> ais523, lets say you want to use a FPGA to do ray-tracing
16:28:58 <ais523> you wouldn't use I2C for the memory, agreed
16:29:10 <ais523> you'd probably just use the demo board, and connect it to your computer over ethernet or PCI or something
16:29:11 <AnMaster> ais523, but using ethernet for memory would be *very* silly
16:29:17 <ais523> (the demo boards often come with PCI connectors)
16:29:28 <AnMaster> in fact, using ethernet would be silly for anything but other "nodes" or such
16:29:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well, a demo board seems rather useless if you want to sell this product with an FPGA doing ray tracing
16:30:17 <ais523> AnMaster: you don't, though; FPGAs are normally used internally
16:30:19 <AnMaster> you want to put it on a PCIe board with memory basically
16:30:21 <ais523> so you don't care about how ridiculous it looks
16:30:35 <ais523> there are companies which do just sell PCIe boards with FPGAs and memory, though
16:30:40 <ais523> so you could use one of those
16:30:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember reading about an FPGA-based rendering product, commercial
16:30:47 <ais523> (unfortunately, the documentation is equally insane...)
16:31:01 <AnMaster> FPGA because it was rather niche and ASIC would have been uneconomical
16:32:31 <AnMaster> ais523, actually when it comes to cost for producing open source FPGAs, isn't there some thing for universities to group together on one wafer and do various projects on different parts of it?
16:33:00 <ais523> possibly, but you'd still be spending a million divided by the number of projects, which is still likely to be quite a lot
16:33:04 <AnMaster> just a few circuits for each project, and lots and lots of projects
16:34:20 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, have you reverse engineered that file format for the pin mapper?
16:35:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it's probably documented somewhere
16:35:07 <ais523> and the format's incredibly simple as it is
16:35:16 <AnMaster> ais523, then just use that directly?
16:35:18 <ais523> basically just key-value, with both quoted, separated by =
16:35:22 <ais523> and yes, that's what I do nowadays
16:35:37 <AnMaster> ais523, be happy it wasn't some obfucated binary file format
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17:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what about that genetic algorithm to build a circuit on an FPGA thingy, somewhat well known iirc
17:08:24 <AnMaster> if things are that undocumented how did they manage that
17:08:38 <ais523> genetic algos work pretty well on undocumented platforms
17:08:45 <ais523> arguably, better than regular algos
17:09:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes but they would have still had to figure out where to put the input and output into the genetically grown block
17:09:41 <AnMaster> iirc they used a "square" of n components that were modified + a bit of fixed stuff to connect the inputs and output to the edges of this area
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17:11:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and iirc it did the genetic algorithm directly on the binary. Again only iirc
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17:16:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: You mean the http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ade.html thing? The one that distinguished between a 1 kHz and a 10 kHz tone with just 32 gates, some of which weren't even connected (but still had an effect on the circuit).
17:16:16 <fizzie> (I'm not sure if there's any details available through the page, though.)
17:16:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes that sounds like the one
17:17:31 <fizzie> It's in one of the Science of Discworld books too. :p
17:20:40 <ais523> fizzie: it distinguished between two waveforms using only combinatorial logic, which is obviously impossible
17:20:51 <ais523> so obviously it was exploiting non-ideal behaviour of the components it was made from
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17:21:47 <fizzie> Yes; but it's still nifty.
17:22:31 <impomatic> Virtual Organisms mentions something about evolved gate arrays. If the gates which aren't connected to the circuit are removed, it stops working.
17:23:14 <impomatic> I've ordered a FPGA dev board to experiment with it myself
17:25:09 <fizzie> http://swtch.com/r.zip -- a sort of a zip-quine; it expands to itself, except in a subdirectory r/.
17:25:36 <fizzie> Don't know where it came from, might be old; link via another channel.
17:25:59 <ais523> it was being discussed a few days ago on reddit
17:26:09 <ais523> along with .gz and .tar.gz versions
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17:26:34 <AnMaster> <fizzie> It's in one of the Science of Discworld books too. :p <-- yes I think that is where I first read about it
17:26:52 <fizzie> A compression file format is a bit of a natural platform for that sort of stuff.
17:27:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you manage to get itself back, doesn't zip files contain some sort of checksum which might make the whole thing harder?
17:29:02 <fizzie> Yes, I would assume it complicates things; but the checksum's not exactly cryptographically strong.
17:30:29 <fizzie> Some CRC-32 variant, IIRC.
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17:34:05 <fizzie> "ISSNC 2010, 17th International Summer School in Novel Computing"; presumably for people who are both computer scientists and novelists.
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17:40:28 <AnMaster> ais523, what free alternatives are there to ghdl (if any)?
17:40:40 <ais523> that doesn't mean there aren't any, ofc
17:40:49 <ais523> but it does mean I can't point you to them
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17:50:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the simplest way to make a test suite or such for a (stateless) entity in vhdl?
17:50:54 <AnMaster> as in, I just want to test all input signals and get a time diagram
17:50:58 <ais523> write it in imperative VHDL
17:51:07 <ais523> something as simple as using initialised signals
17:51:13 <ais523> together with a <= not a after 10 ns
17:51:16 <ais523> b <= not b after 20 ns
17:51:19 <ais523> c <= not c after 40 ns
17:51:35 <ais523> or a <= a + 1 if they're integers rather than std_logics
17:52:29 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't there just be a way to do: for each number in range 0000 1111... and then use that to generate the time diagram
17:52:45 <ais523> AnMaster: but that doesn't specify the timings
17:53:02 <ais523> a <= conv_std_logic(conv_integer(a)+1) after 10 ns
17:53:05 <AnMaster> ais523, the thing I want to test have no timing info currently
17:53:06 <ais523> see, that's pretty simple
17:54:07 <AnMaster> ais523, the example "test bench" at http://ghdl.free.fr/ghdl/A-full-adder.html seems quite confusing
17:54:17 <AnMaster> oh wait, forgot you ignore links
17:54:28 <ais523> test benches can be written to be synthesisable, it's harder then
17:54:36 <ais523> anyway, the reason is that test benches are normally full of asserts
17:54:44 <ais523> as in, actually test the outputs, rather than just generating them
17:54:51 <AnMaster> type pattern_array is array (natural range <>) of pattern_type;
17:54:52 <AnMaster> constant patterns : pattern_array :=
17:54:58 <AnMaster> and then a list of the binary numbers
17:55:00 <ais523> normally you rewrite what the circuit's meant to do in imperative VHDL< and compare
17:55:15 <ais523> VHDL array syntax is so cute
17:55:23 <AnMaster> what does natural range <> mean?
17:56:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also this seems weird: assert false report "end of test" severity note;
17:56:54 <ais523> AnMaster: welcome to output to stderr
17:57:05 <ais523> "severity note" means it isn't a problem that the assert fails
17:57:12 <ais523> and the assert failure means it gets output
17:57:15 <AnMaster> also why does it end with wait;
17:57:24 <ais523> and to prevent an infinite loop
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17:57:56 <ais523> you are missing the point of VHDL if you don't see why you need a pause instruction /somewhere/ in a loop, even an implicit one around a process with no trigger conditions
17:58:32 <ais523> (it's a nice fun reversal from most languages; in most languages, you put an infinite loop at the end of a program for it to not terminate, in VHDL you put an infinite wait at the end of a process for it to terminate)
17:58:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well I can see why it makes sense in the actual thing you are synthesising. But not in a test suite for simulation no
17:59:06 <AnMaster> maybe the issue is that such test benches abuse vhdl basically
17:59:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the way VHDL thinks
17:59:15 <ais523> you still have too much of an imperative mindset
17:59:55 <AnMaster> ais523, you didn't get around to describing what natural range <> actually meant.
18:00:21 <ais523> but I think it defines an array type whose bounds are determined later when it's actually used
18:00:26 <ais523> rather than having fixed bounds for all instances of the type
18:00:31 <AnMaster> oh btw, any idea about this bit: for i in patterns'range loop
18:01:11 <ais523> AnMaster: think of ' in VHDL like -> in C++
18:01:20 <ais523> it basically accesses metadata
18:01:23 <ais523> alternatively, it's the cast operator
18:01:27 <ais523> as in, String'("Hello, world!")
18:01:41 <ais523> (which needs to be cast to a string because "" is ambiguous without knowing what type it is)
18:01:54 <ais523> (imagine "1XXUW", is that a string or a std_logic_vector?)
18:02:21 <AnMaster> Oh I see what that array is, it isn't actually a binary count, it is expected output as well
18:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I couldn't tell, I'm still learning vhdl
18:03:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm somewhat confused by the use of quotes in VHDL
18:04:02 <ais523> AnMaster: '' quotes one thing, "" quotes an array of things
18:04:26 <ais523> e.g. '0' is a single std_logic (or possibly something else, you might need to cast it depending on context), "0000" is four std_logics forming a std_logic_vector (again, it might be something else)
18:04:42 <ais523> and "thing" is an arbitrary type, you need to cast unless it's clear from the context, which it usually is
18:04:49 <ais523> but quite often it's std_logic
18:06:33 <AnMaster> ais523, and when is that "bit" type used?
18:06:56 <ais523> very rarely, it's an imperative boolean
18:07:11 <ais523> so you need to be a) writing imperative code, and b) happening to need a boolean
18:07:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: the summer school thing was just a miscellaneous ad from my inbox. "Surprisingly" it wasn't related to novels in the book sense at all; was more about robotics and such.
18:07:18 <ais523> and that combination doesn't come up a lot
18:07:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did the word "novel" come from then?
18:07:52 <ais523> it might work for something like a flag variable (note, not flag signal)
18:08:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: 1. (6) fresh, new, novel -- (original and of a kind not seen before; "the computer produced a completely novel proof of a well-known theorem")
18:08:40 <AnMaster> ais523, how is verilog compared to vhdl btw?
18:09:06 <ais523> used more in academia and less in the military; same feature set; syntax is C-like and rather sloppier than VHDL's
18:09:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about in industry
18:10:14 <ais523> although all the industrial tools default to VHDL, which is a clue
18:10:27 <AnMaster> any linux tools for verilog btw?
18:11:08 <ais523> no free ones that I know of
18:11:15 <ais523> although the same expensive ones that do VHDL do Verilog too
18:12:25 <fizzie> There are five open-source ones in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Verilog_simulators but it's anyone's guess how serious those are.
18:13:09 <fizzie> The name (Verilog, as opposed to VHDL) is perhaps easier to twist into fancy nomenclature; cf. "Verilator", "VeriWell".
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18:23:39 <AnMaster> " Copyright (C) 2004, 2005, 2008 Tristan Gingold -- tgingold AT free DOT fr
18:23:39 <AnMaster> Last modified: Thu Mar 16 04:39:49 CET 2006 "
18:23:44 <AnMaster> from http://ghdl.free.fr/features.html
18:24:03 <AnMaster> (for ais: that was from ghdl web site)
18:25:29 <AnMaster> oh and the copyright line does not seem to be site wide
18:25:36 <AnMaster> nor does the last modified date
18:27:37 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, found an open source verilog simulation/synthesis tool (subproject of gEDA it seems)
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18:37:28 <nooga> AnMaster: maybe he was using Apple's Time Machine [tm]
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18:57:04 <fizzie> Heh, the "Pattern Recognition Society of Finland" decided to award their yearly "best Master's thesis" award of 2009 to my thing. Now I'm feeling somewhat obligated to join their silly club.
18:57:31 <nooga> what was your thesis?
18:57:57 <fizzie> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition"
18:58:18 <coppro> apparently GSOC gave me a free membership in ACM for a year
18:59:53 <fizzie> I understand there was a (very minor) spike in ACM student membership popularity when it turned out you could get access to Microsoft's "academic alliance" software that way. Or at least they bothered to put "Note! The membership does not give you access to Windows 7" on the sign-up page with red letters.
19:01:08 <fizzie> Well, maybe it wasn't red text.
19:01:21 <pikhq> And just being a student gets you access to Windows Server 2008.
19:01:28 <fizzie> But https://campus.acm.org/public/qj/QuickJoin/qj_control.cfm?form_type=Student still displays quite prominently "The Microsoft Developer Academic Alliance package DOES NOT contain Windows 7."
19:01:56 <fizzie> We have one Windows box here for when it's absolutely necessary, and I think it's running Server 2003 from the Dreamspark thing.
19:01:58 <coppro> I think UW will get me access to various Microsoft softwares
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19:02:21 <pikhq> coppro: If you're a student, you've got access to Microsoft softwares from Dreamspark.
19:02:34 <pikhq> Note. That is not "college student", just "student".
19:02:50 <coppro> but the university grants more
19:02:51 <pikhq> And technically, all they *check* is that you've got a student email account.
19:03:16 <pikhq> But Dreamspark already nets you Server 2008 and Visual Studio. AKA most of the expensive dev software. :P
19:04:01 <pikhq> I've only used this for the sake of virtualising an Active Directory setup so that I could figure out how to get Linux to use Active Directory for login for work...
19:04:31 <fizzie> Server 2008 might not be the nicest workstation OS ever. At least I'm getting a bit bored having to type a reason for shutdown every time I turn off that Server 2003 box. (The "ok" button in the dialog is disabled until you write something in the "why you be shutting me down?" box.)
19:04:48 <pikhq> fizzie: That is quite annoying, yes.
19:04:58 <pikhq> I think there's a way to turn that off, though.
19:05:16 <pikhq> Something like "Yes, this is a *workstation* not a server. Fuck off."
19:05:24 <fizzie> Typically I'd guess a magic register key value somewhere.
19:05:40 <SgeoN1> Isn't there a game at lost.edu or something? How'd they get a .edu?
19:06:06 <SgeoN1> Or maybr I'm hallucinating
19:07:16 <pikhq> SgeoN1: This is all a hallucination.
19:07:18 <pikhq> The Internet does not exist.
19:08:22 <SgeoN1> Hm, a better nick might be Sgeoid
19:08:47 <fizzie> Sgeoid sounds like a shape.
19:09:14 <SgeoN1> Are you saying I'm not a shape?!?!
19:09:41 <fizzie> Isn't the joke usually "What do you mean I'm not in shape? Round *is* a shape!"
19:10:22 <SgeoN1> Didn't think of that, but I'm more of a line than a sphere.
19:13:30 <nooga> I SCREWED MY GSOC APP THIS YEAR ;[
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19:26:51 <pikhq> Maxima's pretty much it.
19:30:00 <SgeoN1> Hi Phantom_Hoover. We were worried about you. What's the deal with the edit on the wiki?
19:30:41 <SgeoN1> Glad to hear you're ok
19:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> BtW, did oerjan and alise get that Fibonacci bijection working?
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19:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on my understanding of the algorithm, I can't work out what the binary number "1111" goes to. "111" is {1, 1}, I think.
19:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and the Ubuntu community's help for my graphics drivers crashing my computer is an unequivocal "You're screwed until the update."
19:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> This was after spending twenty minutes posting my complaint on the IRC channel every five minutes until I got a response. alise was right, a bag of weasels is far superior.
19:40:19 <ais523> #ubuntu can be pretty awful
19:40:39 <ais523> sometimes I idle there around a new release, to increase the average quality of help (I'm not very good at helping, but the average is worse)
19:40:46 <ais523> but I didn't this time because I haven't upgraded yet
19:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a small mercy that the particularly computer-illiterate users don't know how to use IRC.
19:44:39 <fizzie> Oh, did they kick the lucid out of the door?
19:46:14 <fizzie> I am tempted to say "ilmassa on suuren urheilujuhlan tuntua!", but will not, since I couldn't translate that well enough anyway.
19:47:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: "About NetHack: by night, if they saw him stoop; and even to raise his goats from the man in the use of black magic. as a hunter with..."
19:47:39 <fizzie> Thank Twitter for that.
19:48:07 <fizzie> I just suffix ... if it seems to go past the 140 character limit; didn't tweak the stopping probability at all.
19:49:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: I also somehow was amused a bit by a recent poem: "maa on viileä kuin myrkkykaatopaikka / solmu hapertuu yöksi / tylsyys osaa juoda myrkkyä meissä".
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19:50:06 <Deewiant> Did you have runogen on Twitter as well?
19:50:33 <fizzie> Sure, http://twitter.com/runogen (what an inspired account name).
19:50:49 <fizzie> There exist an english port of runogen, but for some reason it's not at all as funny.
19:51:18 <fizzie> Smaller, I think. Only one wordset, no... stranger ones.
19:52:43 <fizzie> For some reason ~no-one seems to be following either one; runogen's got 2 followers and fungot has 6.
19:52:44 <fungot> fizzie: you shouldn't need the traceback since you should be able to run a gambit benchmark from the repl, but not your vote). you need to
19:57:11 <AnMaster> <nooga> AnMaster: maybe he was using Apple's Time Machine [tm] <-- augh
19:58:31 <AnMaster> opencores has a horrible faq page btw. It is somewhat surprising that it works even without javascript..
19:58:38 <AnMaster> (see http://opencores.org/opencores,faq)
19:59:01 <AnMaster> (try clicking those links, in fact, you will notice the issue before you click)
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20:08:51 <nooga> coppro: i did IM filesystem for Plan 9
20:09:10 <coppro> nooga: What did you screw up?
20:09:41 <AnMaster> you meant what I thought you meant. :/
20:09:55 <nooga> oh come on, this was even in their ideas
20:10:13 <nooga> my view was a little bit modified, though
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20:10:34 <ais523> nooga: I take that this is mapping IM to the filesystem, rather than creating a filesystem stored over IM
20:10:49 <nooga> ais523: you're right
20:11:01 <nooga> there's an IRCfs for Plan 9
20:11:20 <nooga> in Plan 9 you write filesystems instead of libs
20:11:25 <coppro> How did you screw it up?
20:11:46 <AnMaster> nooga, which im protocol? jabber?
20:11:58 <nooga> because filesystems provide consistent interface for every stupid shell script or C prog or something else
20:12:33 <AnMaster> ais523, looking around there seems to be better open source tools for verilog than for vhdl, at least there seems to be some open source synthesis tools for verilog
20:12:39 <AnMaster> haven't yet found any for vhdl
20:12:51 <nooga> coppro: i guess it was not as detailed as it should be
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20:19:52 <nooga> haha, now WIMACS has a modem
20:22:05 <nooga> WIMACS is out (mine/friend's) computer built from scratch
20:22:38 <nooga> with 8088 processor, homebuilt motherboard and homebuilt modem as an I/O device
20:23:13 <nooga> i'm trying to write small OS for it and then you will be able to dial WIMACS using modem and talk with it on tty
20:26:51 <nooga> maybe it could even serve a BBS
20:27:37 <pikhq> You could probably port CP/M to it.
20:28:15 <nooga> but i want to write my own
20:28:16 <pikhq> DOS is very, very, very heavily BIOS-based.
20:28:23 <pikhq> CP/M is more portable.
20:28:40 <nooga> but running DOS is possible
20:28:45 <pikhq> Basically all that's needed is an 8080, a terminal, and 16k of RAM.
20:29:07 <pikhq> Possible, but you'd not run anything that used BIOS routines.
20:29:16 <pikhq> Unless you wrote an IBM BIOS emulator.
20:29:16 <nooga> that's why CP/M is awesome
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20:43:23 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> BtW, did oerjan and alise get that Fibonacci bijection working?
20:43:38 <oerjan> i didn't code it up, and i didn't hear alise said e did, either
20:44:06 <oerjan> also, you're alive! (but absent)
20:44:21 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Based on my understanding of the algorithm, I can't work out what the binary number "1111" goes to. "111" is {1, 1}, I think.
20:44:35 <ais523> oerjan: alise added a link to the wiki
20:44:43 <nooga> i'm thinking about Forth-like language for WIMACS
20:44:44 <ais523> which may or may not be to a Fibonacci bijection
20:45:18 <oerjan> ais523: today? because e added the 2^u*(2*v+1)-1 version previously.
20:45:30 * oerjan should probably check when he gets that far
20:45:46 <ais523> I noticed today, although it may have happened earlier
20:46:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: (for the logs) naively, 1111 corresponds to nothing, that's precisely why i included the divMod x 2 modification
20:46:11 <oerjan> if you actually looked at my code
20:47:23 <oerjan> basically if it starts with an even no. of 1's, remove one before encoding into a list. afterwards, double the list head, then add 1 iff a 1 was removed.
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20:48:23 <oerjan> 21:42 oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> BtW, did oerjan and alise get that Fibonacci bijection working?
20:48:26 <oerjan> 21:43 oerjan> i didn't code it up, and i didn't hear alise said e did, either
20:48:29 <oerjan> 21:43 oerjan> also, you're alive! (but absent)
20:48:31 <oerjan> 21:43 oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Based on my understanding of the algorithm, I can't work out what the binary number "1111" goes to. "111" is {1, 1}, I think.
20:48:42 <oerjan> 221:45 oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: (for the logs) naively, 1111 corresponds to nothing, that's precisely why i included the divMod x 2 modification
20:48:46 <oerjan> 21:45 oerjan> if you actually looked at my code
20:48:48 <oerjan> 21:46 oerjan> basically if it starts with an even no. of 1's, remove one before encoding into a list. afterwards, double the list head, then add 1 iff a 1 was removed.
20:49:21 <ais523> an obvious way to biject BF and the naturals is to start with any naive encoding, then map the lowest-numbered valid BF program to 1, the second-lowest to 2, the third-lowest to 3, etc
20:49:28 <ais523> although that could be tricky to implement
20:50:06 <Phantom_Hoover> fax *claimed* to have an algorithm that made it practical, but he never gave it.
20:50:37 <oerjan> ais523: we _are_ going for a bit of efficiency here. after all we are still modifying the encoding because the 2^u*(2*v+1)-1 encoding, while perfectly correct afawk, blew up the numbers too much.
20:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Logically, it must have encoded some *huge* programs as small numbers, though.
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20:52:34 <oerjan> it just had to encode some huge programs a _little_ smaller than you'd think, so the small programs could fit there instead.
20:52:48 <oerjan> well some of the small programs
20:53:27 <oerjan> but basically i think it encoded long programs without loops fairly small
20:53:41 <augur> guys, ive got a challenge for you. :D
20:53:58 <augur> its related to formal grammars tho, so if you dont want to accept the challenge, i understand.
20:54:16 <oerjan> since it was the cars in the lists that blew up, and if they were just single commands rather than loops they couldn't blow up _that_ much.
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20:54:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: The current bijection gives huge numbers for long programs without loops, though I don't recall if I tried it with the old one.
20:54:51 -!- augur has joined.
20:54:59 <augur> the challenge is as follows
20:55:01 -!- AndChat| has joined.
20:55:32 <augur> define a class of grammars that extends the context free grammars (or some formulation thereof) in the following way:
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20:55:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yeah the triangular encoding and the bit interleaving one both have problems when creating a tuple of one small and one large number, as a long consed program would eventually tend to do
20:56:14 <oerjan> fizzie and i found out those two are actually pretty equivalent
20:56:31 <oerjan> just about 2 bits difference at most
20:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So distributing the conses would actually make a big difference?
20:56:40 <augur> the extended version of the grammar allows the following property: for each grammar, there is some non-terminal symbol, call it W, that can behave in the following fashion:
20:57:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes. although the fibonacci version should be better because the size of the encode list is approximately proportional to the total sum of bits
20:57:24 <augur> either all instances of the symbol are at whatever places they are at in the sentence, one and only one instance is at the front of the sentence, or ALL instances are at the front of the sentence
20:58:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: however after i pointed out that the challenge is to find an encoding where the bit size of an encoded tuple is approximately the sum of the bitsizes of the elements, fizzie suggested i solve _that_. it would be even better than the fibonacci encoding, i think.
20:58:50 <augur> and those are the only three options
21:00:00 <oerjan> and it would, i think, remove the need to distribute tuples, you could use a consed list efficiently enough
21:00:38 <oerjan> augur: not at present, busy with a different problem as you can see
21:02:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i've thought about it a bit since this morning, and at least one way is just a counting problem
21:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The "write out combinations of '-+<>,.[]' and eliminate invalids" way?
21:03:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: er no, i've never seriously considered that
21:03:30 <oerjan> i'm talking about a tuple encoding that approximately sums bitsizes to keep balance automatically
21:03:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Write us a generating function for the valid BF programs in some naive encoding. :p
21:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose fax was wrong about the efficient way for his algorith?
21:04:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't say that, he was mentioning stirling numbers so there probably _is_ a way
21:04:28 <fizzie> (Then solve the coefficients out of it.)
21:04:40 <oerjan> it's just that even i don't feel like wrapping my brain around that
21:05:43 <oerjan> fizzie: but i _like_ the method we already have of building things out of lists or tuples, it just needs a more balanced tuple or list
21:07:13 <oerjan> now to encode [1..] x [1..] with balanced bits - i think dropping 0 is more elegant because:
21:07:43 <oerjan> if 0 is dropped, there is exactly 1 number with 1 bit, 2 numbers with 2 bits, 4 numbers with 3 bits etc.
21:08:05 <oerjan> now then how many tuples are there with sum of bitsizes n?
21:08:30 <oerjan> it could be 1+(n-1), 2+(n-2), ..., (n-1)+1.
21:09:30 <oerjan> 2^0 * 2^(n-2) + 2^1 * 2^(n-3) + ... + 2^(n-2) * 2^0
21:09:42 <oerjan> conveniently all terms are equal :)
21:10:11 <oerjan> so there are (n-1)*2^(n-2) tuples with total bitsize sum n
21:12:36 <oerjan> 1*1 + 2*2 + 3*4 + 4*8 + 5*16 + ...
21:13:38 <oerjan> the obvious way of getting balanced bits is to order the tuples by total bitsize and take their position in the order
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21:15:20 <oerjan> which requires counting all the tuples with smaller bitsize, then adding the number of tuples with same total but less bitsize in the first element, then adding x*2^n + y
21:15:32 <oerjan> all eminently doable, at least in the forward direction
21:16:18 <oerjan> assuming (m,n) are the bitsizes of (x,y) respectively
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21:17:35 <oerjan> the middle term there we already essentially have, it's (m-1)*2^(m+n-2)
21:18:11 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:18:16 <oerjan> so it remains to get the partial sums of that series 1*1 + 2*2 + 3*4 + 4*8 + 5*16 + ...
21:19:26 <oerjan> !haskell take 10 $ scanl1 (+) [(n-1)*2^(n-2) | n <- [2..]]
21:19:28 <EgoBot> [1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793,4097,9217]
21:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Haskell programs must give horrendously complex machine code.
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21:20:49 <oerjan> the evil mangler of ghc is legendary
21:21:22 <oerjan> but it's going away when they deprecate the compilation via C option
21:21:45 <oerjan> (it's a perl program directly modifying gcc-outputted assembly, iirc)
21:22:08 * Phantom_Hoover is still trying to stop my inner 4-year-old wanting Mathematica
21:22:21 <oerjan> OEIS says that sequence is (n-1)*2^n + 1
21:23:11 <oerjan> !haskell [(n-1)*2^n + 1 | n <- [0..10]]
21:23:13 <EgoBot> [0,1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793,4097,9217]
21:23:55 <oerjan> ok we wanted the 1 to start at n=2
21:24:20 <oerjan> !haskell [(n-2)*2^(n-1) + 1 | n <- [2..10]]
21:24:22 <EgoBot> [1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793,4097]
21:24:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's an optional option for ghc i think
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21:26:23 <oerjan> hm actually n=2 should give 0 since then there are no strictly smaller tuples
21:26:29 <Sgeo|web> I have the opportunity to post a [Bash] programming contest for my UNIX class
21:26:40 <Sgeo|web> I'm considering having them implement a subset of Brainfuck
21:27:08 <oerjan> !haskell [(n-3)*2^(n-2) + 1 | n <- [2..10]]
21:27:10 <EgoBot> [0,1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793]
21:27:11 <Sgeo|web> I think having them implement [] might be a bit difficult
21:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Any programmer worth their salt can implement the whole thing easily.
21:27:32 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
21:28:06 <nooga> brainfuck interp in sadol
21:29:23 <oerjan> encode (x,y) = (m+n-3)*2^(m+n-2)+1 + (m-1)*2^(m+n-2) + x*2^(n-1) + y where m = bitSize x; n = bitSize y
21:29:56 <nooga> Sgeo|web: are you a teacher or something?
21:30:25 <oerjan> defining bitSize remains
21:30:47 <Sgeo|web> nooga: I won the programming contest
21:31:02 <oerjan> x and y need to have the upper bit removed
21:31:18 <nooga> i don't like teachers
21:31:36 <nooga> or rather ignorant morons... mainly
21:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Most people learning programming aren't interested, at least AFAIK.
21:32:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: logarithms only defined for floating point, which cannot safely convert from Integers
21:32:20 <Sgeo|web> How do you do ASCII code <-> character in Bash?
21:32:34 <nooga> one guy from OS architecture classes failed me because my experimental kernel was not enough
21:33:07 <nooga> he wanted me to make a powerpoint presentation about ACLs and implement an ACL simulator in C#
21:33:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web: Give them a two-way converter and tell them to use that.
21:34:06 <pikhq> nooga: ... He wanted an ACL implementation, not a *freaking OS*.
21:34:08 <oerjan> encode (x,y) = (m+n-3)*2^(m+n-2)+1 + (m-2)*2^(m+n-2) + (x-1)*2^(n-1) + y where m = bitSize x; n = bitSize y
21:34:32 <oerjan> the removal of the top bits fit with some other terms
21:35:00 <oerjan> hm some of that still can be combined
21:35:04 <nooga> pikhq: but the guy couldn't even understand my design
21:35:28 <oerjan> encode (x,y) = (2*m+n-5)*2^(m+n-2)+ 1 + (x-1)*2^(n-1) + y where m = bitSize x; n = bitSize y
21:35:52 <nooga> plus designing and implementing even minimal kernel requires more knowledge than writing a stupid essay about stupid, simple ACLs
21:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga: If your teacher tells you to do such-and-such, doing something very clever that *isn't* such-and-such does not demonstrate knowledge of such-and-such.
21:36:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: OS architecture class. The class is about the architecture of an OS.
21:36:45 <pikhq> And he was being graded on a "general project", I'm pretty sure.
21:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But did he implement whatever an ACL is while writing his kernel?
21:37:21 <nooga> i wrote a regular expression compiler for Formal Languages class
21:37:38 <pikhq> Frankly, a kernel for a project in an OS design class is pretty much what I'd expect. Not a teeny tiny ACL implementation in C#.
21:37:42 <nooga> instead of going to lectures and laboratories
21:38:27 <fizzie> Sgeo|web: You can convert from octal numbers to characters with "echo -e". And from decimal to octal with printf.
21:38:53 <fizzie> The "printf" command's %c prints the first character of the provided argument; it does not convert a number to character.
21:39:28 <fizzie> "echo -e \0nnn", where nnn is an octal number.
21:39:29 <Sgeo|web> Can I just write the converter in Python?
21:39:51 <fizzie> Sgeo|web: Well, if you want to be a quitter....
21:40:15 <Sgeo|web> I'm going to supply the class with ord2chr and chr2ord
21:40:38 <pikhq> Hmm. Moar Japanese, or video games?
21:40:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web: This BF-Nat bijection has demonstrated pretty well that we aren't very practically-minded.
21:40:50 <pikhq> This is a very hard decision.
21:40:51 <nooga> i hope that my WIMACS would give me at least several credits
21:41:26 <oerjan> <Ilari> So variable spacing in interleaving X_1 and X_2 saves much more (Easily 100Mb with Lost Kingdom) than using hyperpyramidals instead of simple bit interleaving (hardly even 1Mb).
21:41:26 <fizzie> As for "character to octal", od's usually available. That should be enough.
21:42:13 <nooga> and i thought that compressing brainfuck is a closed topic
21:42:21 <oerjan> Ilari: basically hyperpyramidals and bit interleaving are almost equal, both have encoded size dependent mostly on the maximal element
21:42:44 <pikhq> Fuck it. Moar Japanese.
21:43:33 <oerjan> because x1+x2+...+xn is between max(x1,...,xn) and n*max(x1,...,xn) which only give + log_2 n bit variation
21:44:14 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: read my statement again ;]
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21:44:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: this isn't compressing really, we aren't trying to remove unnecessary bits or squeeze commonly repetitive parts...
21:45:45 <fizzie> Bash has both indexed and associative arrays, though the "decentness" is debatable.
21:46:18 <oerjan> doing that would probably make the whole mess of keeping bijectivity too horribly complicated
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21:55:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: Aren't they all associative?
21:56:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: At least my manpage says they behave differently; you get explicitly indexed arrays with declare -a and associative -A; I'm not sure what you end up with if you just do the [] subscripting.
21:56:39 <fizzie> "Indexed arrays are referenced using integers (including arithmetic expressions) and are zero-based; associative arrays are referenced using arbitrary strings."
21:56:54 <oerjan> <Ilari> So variable spacing in interleaving X_1 and X_2 saves much more (Easily 100Mb with Lost Kingdom) than using hyperpyramidals instead of simple bit interleaving (hardly even 1Mb).
22:02:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:03:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Python give a way to include multiple modules in one file?
22:11:17 <oerjan> 1:[2],10:[4],11:[1],100:[6],101:[8],110:[3],111:[2,1],1000:[10]
22:11:40 <oerjan> that fibonacci encoding ordering is a bit weird :)
22:13:33 <nooga> i've missed the idea
22:13:48 <nooga> and i don't even know how is this supposed to work
22:14:08 <oerjan> basically you take a number >= 1 as binary
22:14:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it relies on the property that the base-Fibonacci representation of a number uses only the digits 0 and 1 and never contains the sequence 11.
22:15:02 <oerjan> then you split it up at instances of 11
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22:15:31 <Rugxulo> <alise> QuickBasic doesn't have all that many disadvantages for DOS.
22:15:40 <Rugxulo> <AnMaster> alise, and 640 kB is enough for everyone?
22:15:54 <Rugxulo> no, I think you'd use EMS or XMS via INTERRUPT() or CALL ABSOLUTE
22:15:56 * oerjan is talking about himself
22:16:29 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, how much ram does that allow?
22:16:46 <Rugxulo> depends on what API version, memory manager, etc.
22:16:46 <olsner> someone should make SlowBasic
22:16:50 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and doesn't EMS and XMS mean you can't address it "straight" but need to use some nasty tricks
22:16:58 <oerjan> also the first 1 in a 11 is removed. if there is more than 2 1's in a row, start from the back.
22:17:00 <AnMaster> like basically having a "window" into high memory
22:17:19 <Rugxulo> EMS is emulated XMS these days
22:17:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, except it looks nothing like the real thing here
22:17:29 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, both are DEAD these days
22:17:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well nor does it even look similar in my irc client I meant
22:17:54 <Rugxulo> AnMaster: http://johnson.tmfc.net/dos/drivers.html
22:18:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: FreeDOS is still maintained.
22:18:41 <nooga> oerjan: but how is it related to bf?
22:18:46 <oerjan> this leaves a problem if 11 remains at the start, which is hacked around by modifying the first number x into 2x or 2x+1, dependingly
22:18:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes and so is linux 2.2
22:18:52 <pikhq> DOS is an OS that is very, very hard to kill.
22:19:06 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also. doesn't both of these imply that you use a window into high memory or something
22:19:10 <Rugxulo> AMD64 (no V86), Vista and 7 (no gfx, bugs)
22:19:16 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that you can't see both at once
22:19:27 <pikhq> Rugxulo: That AMD64 can still run DOS.
22:19:31 <pikhq> Just not in long mode.
22:19:44 <oerjan> nooga: it's just a way to encode lists of naturals as a single natural, which is then used as a subroutine to collapse a bf program into a single natural number
22:19:44 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, so a pita to program for then?
22:19:46 <Rugxulo> DOSEMU has to fully emulate 16-bit stuff in AMD64
22:19:54 <Rugxulo> no, just a PITA for lazy programmers ;-)
22:19:57 <pikhq> And yes, there are quite good x86 emulators.
22:20:01 <Rugxulo> besides, DPMI is the preferred method
22:20:02 <pikhq> Rugxulo: AMD64 != long mode.
22:20:17 <Rugxulo> obviously, but you know what I meant
22:20:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, but no one needs vm86() ...
22:20:32 <AnMaster> and dosemu and dosbox are both fast enough
22:20:42 <Rugxulo> DOSBox is slow slow slow!!!
22:20:47 <Rugxulo> and only emulates a 486 !!!
22:21:03 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well then, no one would make new dos apps needing a modern computer
22:21:09 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, DPMI is how you directly access memory in 32-bit
22:21:23 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Dude, it's effectively emulating *several hundred MHz* 486.
22:21:31 <Rugxulo> even under DOSEMU x86-64, DJGPP stuff runs "native speed" (their claim, not mine)
22:21:32 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I need 64-bit, I often use enough ram at once for that
22:21:42 <pikhq> Which is to say, *dozens of times faster than any 486 ever dreamed of running*.
22:21:42 <oerjan> nooga: the trick is to do this in such a way that all legal bf programs get a unique number, and no numbers are skipped
22:21:50 <Rugxulo> and you need 1+ Ghz processor even for that speed !!!
22:21:51 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, of course I don't need x86 as such
22:22:06 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I would be perfectly happy with PowerPC
22:22:11 <oerjan> (legal wrt bracketing. comments are ignored.)
22:22:11 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Dear God man, *Bochs* is faster than that.
22:22:23 <nooga> oerjan: sounds awesome
22:22:23 <Rugxulo> no, trust me, DOSBox will not run faster than a 486
22:22:28 <Rugxulo> I have a real 586, and it's much faster
22:22:41 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, a 586 wouldn't run dos any more
22:22:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes it would.
22:22:57 <pikhq> A 586 is called a "Pentium".
22:23:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't windows exist by then
22:23:08 <Rugxulo> Windows existed for 8088, even
22:23:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well okay, but I mean "common"
22:23:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: Until Windows XP, consumer Windows was a DOS program.
22:23:27 <Rugxulo> XP needs at least a Pentium 1 (no MMX)
22:23:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know, but you didn't see much of that in windows 98
22:23:43 <Rugxulo> pikhq, that's generalizing a bit much, but semi-true
22:23:51 <pikhq> Every time you ran a 3.x program.
22:24:00 <pikhq> Or an old DOS program.
22:24:11 <pikhq> Which was pretty darned common until, oh, 2000 or so.
22:24:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, which was basically never, plus you couldn't tell it really if it was 3.x apart from a sucky gui
22:24:29 <AnMaster> and well on 95 it still happened
22:24:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Clearly you didn't.
22:25:02 <pikhq> Every time it broke enough, you needed to get out the edit.com
22:25:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't think win98 broke like that for me ever
22:25:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, so okay you saw scandisk at boot sometimes, I admit that
22:26:16 <Rugxulo> AnMasterRugxulo, I need 64-bit, I often use enough ram at once for that
22:26:35 <Rugxulo> nobody ever used to need > 4 GB of RAM, so why they do now?
22:26:46 <Rugxulo> we put a man on the moon with much much much less than that ;-)
22:27:21 <AnMaster> AAARGH why did firefox decide to open that pdf in *krita*
22:27:25 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Anyways. DOSbox *defaults* to 100 MHz. The clock speed it runs at is configurable.
22:27:48 <pikhq> Dunno why, but it does.
22:28:41 <Rugxulo> it's not cycle exact, and cpus differ, different apps need different speeds, etc.
22:28:57 <Rugxulo> well, plus there are different cores for different things (supposed to guess at runtime, doesn't always work)
22:29:02 <pikhq> Though most DOS apps *really* shouldn't be relying on a specific clock speed.
22:29:14 <Rugxulo> most don't, but some old ones did
22:29:20 <pikhq> At least, anything that ran on anything newer than the original XT shouldn't.
22:30:07 <Rugxulo> DOSBox virtualizes a lot of stuff (VGA, soundcards, etc.), otherwise people would just prefer VirtualBox (faster but much less DOS-friendly)
22:30:20 <AnMaster> what API did DOS provide and how was it called?
22:30:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, in general, how did you do a syscall under DOS
22:31:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: Interrupts.
22:31:06 <Rugxulo> a la "int 80h" ?? DOS proper mostly used "int 21h" (but also others, 2Fh, and BIOS, 10h)
22:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What would happen if I wrote a BIOS program in Linux and ran it?
22:31:47 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes like syscall/sysret (or int 80h, but linux no longer uses that if there are better alternatives, and that change was made back during 2.5.x)
22:31:59 <Rugxulo> Phantom_Hoover: I think Linux V86 mode supports such
22:32:22 <AnMaster> hm what did windows do for it? before syscall/sysret I mean
22:32:25 <Rugxulo> AnMaster: but there are people who code for int 80h (mostly assembly dudes)
22:32:48 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, why do they code for a legacy platform though?
22:32:50 <Rugxulo> what did Windows do internally or end users?
22:33:06 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I mean, what did windows do to call it's kernel
22:33:15 <Rugxulo> AnMaster: "legacy" is 90% of the world!
22:33:16 <AnMaster> some interrupt? call gates (*shudder*)?
22:33:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: You just call the NTDLL functions, you don't do manual syscalls there. (I'm sure it's *possible*. but...)
22:33:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Depends on which Windows.
22:33:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, nowdays presumably syscall/sysret
22:33:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
22:33:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, "nt before syscall/sysret days"
22:34:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Why should you care what they do? My guess would be the interrupt mechanism, that's I guess the common way.
22:34:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but which interrupt
22:35:20 <AnMaster> oh and: <Rugxulo> AnMaster: "legacy" is 90% of the world! <-- not really, most new linux installs on 64-bit capable hardware (which is almost all new x86 hardware, possibly excluding atom, not sure about that...) tend to be x86_64
22:35:20 <Rugxulo> not really documented internals (at least not by MS), but I think "int 2Eh" was their own revectored / proprietary one
22:35:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: "System calls in Windows NT are initiated by executing an "int 2e" instruction."
22:35:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: But really, no-one invokes those manually, so why *should* you care?
22:35:47 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes, all new hardware is
22:35:51 <Rugxulo> you can't because MS didn't document it
22:35:58 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and by god, x86_64 is *way* better
22:36:03 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, so what? just because it's new doesn't make it perfect
22:36:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Windows NT supports 3 different system call schemes by default.
22:36:18 <Rugxulo> better for coders who already know how to use older stuff?
22:36:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes it is less register starved, no it doesn't have enough registers
22:36:33 <Rugxulo> doesn't matter how many registers, push/pop is a simple workaround
22:36:35 <pikhq> The Win32 subsystem's, the OS/2 subsystem's, and the POSIX subsystem's.
22:36:39 <Rugxulo> besides, more registers don't mean faster speed
22:36:47 <pikhq> (implementations for the POSIX subsystem are not included by default)
22:36:51 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and compiler does a better job at a less register starved architecture
22:36:57 <Rugxulo> OS/2 and POSIX subsystems are dead and removed in modern Windows
22:37:05 <Rugxulo> compilers are dumb dumb dumb
22:37:14 <pikhq> Rugxulo: The OS/2 subsystem is unmaintained but very much still around.
22:37:29 <pikhq> And the POSIX subsystem is not merely around but actively developed.
22:37:30 <Rugxulo> uh, not that I know of, I think OS/2 1.x apps last worked only in Win2k
22:37:45 <pikhq> Interix is still developed.
22:37:51 <pikhq> And that is the POSIX subsystem.
22:37:52 <Rugxulo> not the same, and doesn't come by default, only available for Enterprise, etc.
22:38:09 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I presume I can get it by MSDNAA
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22:38:18 <pikhq> It's a free download.
22:38:20 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, I just mean most compilers aren't exactly perfect by a long shot
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22:38:31 <pikhq> For XP, Vista, Server 2003, Server 2008, or 7.
22:38:33 <Rugxulo> it's not like they magically get 1000x better just by having a few extra registers
22:38:52 <Rugxulo> "Server" != "Home Premium"
22:39:06 <pikhq> "Server 2003" is a *Windows version*.
22:39:16 <Rugxulo> yes, but not for home users (e.g. DPMI broken)
22:39:21 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, sure, gcc isn't very good. But 1) portable (compared to asm) 2) much less programmer time, hardware is cheaper than programmer time often nowdays 3) good enough most of the time
22:39:28 <AnMaster> and a lot easier to debug for and so on
22:39:30 <pikhq> It's still available for the *consumer versions of OSes* as well.
22:39:36 <Rugxulo> asm can be portable, see FASM itself (runs on like 10 OSes)
22:39:41 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and not 1000x, that is unrealistic
22:39:47 <Rugxulo> less programmer time depends on the programmer ;-)
22:39:55 <pikhq> Also. Yeah, x86 gains a *lot* from the extra registers.
22:39:59 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I'm talking about 150% increase for some tasks, 10-20% for other
22:40:00 <pikhq> x86_64 *doubles* the registers.
22:40:08 <Rugxulo> no, not everything speeds up with x86-64
22:40:22 <AnMaster> iirc I saw 300% increase for MPEG decoding on x86-64
22:40:43 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it was using SSE2 on 32-bit version too
22:40:47 <pikhq> And anything doing 64-bit arithmetic (like MPEG encoding and decoding) increases by *absurd* amounts.
22:40:57 <pikhq> Rugxulo: It also doubles the number of SSE2 registers...
22:41:12 <Rugxulo> obviously you guys haven't tested my lame-o hack of BEFI.COM, very very small changes can significantly alter the speed
22:41:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't understand why we don't have a mode with 32-bit pointers, 64-bit GP registers, and so on
22:41:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Too much work.
22:41:31 <AnMaster> 64-bit pointers only for apps that need it
22:41:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, it would avoid the larger pointer size problem
22:41:42 <Rugxulo> AnMaster: people are lazy, that's why
22:41:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: That means another full complement of dynamic libraries.
22:41:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, and we would always have 64-bit registers
22:42:10 <Rugxulo> sounds like V86++ to me ;-)
22:42:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, no it means two, since we drop the legacy 32-bit GP register variant on this arch
22:42:40 <pikhq> ... If you're dropping x86_32, then you might as well just *nuke x86 as a whole*.
22:42:41 <fizzie> pikhq: Are you sure you can get it officially supported for the consumer versions of current Windowsen? SFU 3.5, which is downloadable from Microsoft, officially supports up to Server 2003 / XP; for Vista and 7, you'd need the "Subsystem for UNIX-based applications" (SUA), which as far as I know isn't available as a standalone thing, only in the Enterprise and Ultimate editions.
22:42:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, this wouldn't be x86 at all
22:43:00 <fizzie> (Could be that I just haven't found the SUA download, though.)
22:43:06 <pikhq> fizzie: I've used it.
22:43:12 <Rugxulo> MS is annoying with nickel-and-diming everything
22:43:15 <pikhq> It's even free to redistribute.
22:43:22 <pikhq> Gentoo/Win32 has it on the CD.
22:43:23 <Rugxulo> XP Mode won't work on 7 except non-Home versions, etc.
22:43:45 <pikhq> Erm. Sorry. Gentoo/Windows.
22:43:45 * Rugxulo wonders if Cygwin64 exists
22:44:05 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Interix is quite a bit faster than Cygwin.
22:44:16 <pikhq> Doesn't need to use hacks like userspace fork.
22:44:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, it would be some (probably RISC) platform. It would have 32-bit and 64-bit pointer mode for userland. Always 64-bit for kernel. It would have lots of GPR, (64? 128?) which would always be 64-bits wide, possibly we could have a few 128-bit GP registers as well, probably fewer for cost reasons). It would have some 256 bits wide SIMD registers. Or maybe 512?
22:44:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, and some floating point, could be part of SIMD, not sure
22:45:25 <AnMaster> plus an assorted set of special registers of course, like every other arch
22:45:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, sounds like utopia yet?
22:45:57 <Rugxulo> http://lbw.sourceforge.net/ (uses Interix, supposedly very buggy though)
22:46:02 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Gentoo/Win32 has it on the CD. <-- and isn't that dead? If you mean the cygwin one?
22:46:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, there is internix debian
22:46:18 <Rugxulo> 256 bit wide SIMD = AVX, no?
22:46:21 <fizzie> pikhq: By "it", do you mean the older SFU 3.5 working also on Vista and 7 unsupportedly, or the SUA? Because all I can really find from Microsoft's downloads is the SUA utilities and SDK, which requires Vista/7 Enterprise/Ultimate, because the actual subsystem part is only included in those. (I guess it might be redistributable and available because of that, but not directly from MS.)
22:50:55 <pikhq> fizzie: Huh. Sure enough.
22:51:10 <Rugxulo> <alise> 03:00:06 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but why not use FreeBASIC instead?
22:51:10 <Rugxulo> <alise> No peeking 'n poking madness; no nostalgia; no good-ole-days-feeling.
22:51:12 <fizzie> Incidentally, how is it with Hurd these days? Ready to replace the temporary Linux solution yet?
22:51:16 <pikhq> Fucking Microsoft.
22:51:26 <Rugxulo> FreeBASIC has a QB mode, and you can indeed peek/poke with DJGPP functions
22:51:28 <pikhq> Hurd is basically abandoned.
22:51:44 <Rugxulo> no, I think somebody is (barely) working on it, just not sure how much
22:51:52 <Rugxulo> I thought I read some hint about it recently, but I can't remember
22:52:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, link to gentoo/windows?
22:52:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, the only thing I can find is something published on 1 april...
22:52:33 <AnMaster> or the old dead gentoo/cygwin one
22:53:12 <pikhq> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/index.xml
22:53:41 <Rugxulo> oh, BTW, does anybody in here besides me actively have a Win32 install?
22:53:52 <Rugxulo> I'm thinking it should maybe be possible to write a Befunge93 interpreter in CMD
22:53:56 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I have *an* implementation of Win32.
22:54:01 <Rugxulo> (which may or may not work with ReactOS)
22:54:11 <Rugxulo> (their shell shares some features)
22:54:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, and the cd with this thing for it on it?
22:54:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/prefix/x86-interix/
22:54:41 <Rugxulo> I wrote "get()" in CMD, seems to work, haven't gotten past that though
22:54:47 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I have 64-bit windows xp in a virtualbox
22:54:52 <AnMaster> that is all I have when it comes to windows
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22:55:02 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I have a silly Server 2003 install, though I'm not sure what you mean by "actively".
22:56:19 <Rugxulo> I was basically looking for comments on whether anybody agreed that CMD should be enough to emulate Befunge93
22:56:30 <Rugxulo> like I said, I wrote get(), it seems to work, but I haven't gotten past that
22:56:50 <AnMaster> but who knows, it may be possible
22:57:28 <Rugxulo> it supports "set /A expression", for example
22:58:25 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, how do you extract the top element from that then?
22:59:04 <Rugxulo> May also specify substrings for an expansion.
22:59:04 <Rugxulo> would expand the PATH environment variable, and then use only the 5
22:59:04 <Rugxulo> characters that begin at the 11th (offset 10) character of the expanded
22:59:31 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that is cmd.exe but not command.com right?
22:59:47 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and who knows where this is documented...
23:00:01 <Rugxulo> I just typed "set /?" and "for /?"
23:00:09 <Rugxulo> seemed to be enough for now ;-)
23:00:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that mentions the substring thingy?
23:00:47 <Rugxulo> The /A switch specifies that the string to the right of the equal sign
23:00:47 <Rugxulo> is a numerical expression that is evaluated. The expression evaluator
23:00:47 <Rugxulo> is pretty simple and supports the following operations, in decreasing
23:00:48 <Rugxulo> * / % - arithmetic operators
23:00:48 <Rugxulo> + - - arithmetic operators
23:00:51 <Rugxulo> = *= /= %= += -= - assignment
23:01:17 <Rugxulo> I wanted you to know what it supported (&, ^, |)
23:01:53 <AnMaster> it doesn't have bitwise operators
23:02:10 <AnMaster> and also for befunge98 (unless you use some fingerprint that provide bitwise operators)
23:02:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also it doesn't do xnor :(
23:02:22 <Rugxulo> oh, well obviously Befunge doesn't ... but I'm just saying "set /a" should be enough for B93
23:02:31 <AnMaster> (of course, nothing does, unless it is a HDL)
23:02:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: MSDN has cmd.exe documentation, I've used it a couple of times.
23:02:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think I never looked further than windows help center
23:04:37 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, you sure love 64-bit a lot ;-)
23:04:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: As for command.com limitations, failing all else you could keep the stack in a file, and use the find command (grep replacement) to extract the top and all-but-the-top into different files.
23:05:10 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hm? that is because compared to 32-bit x86 it is a lot saner
23:05:20 <AnMaster> sure it is worse than most RISC platforms
23:05:31 <AnMaster> but that is what I'm stuck with
23:05:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also that comment seemed out of context there
23:05:46 <AnMaster> since we hadn't discussed that for several screens
23:05:51 <Rugxulo> I was referring to your XP64 VirtualBox install
23:06:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that was several screens above yes
23:06:17 <Rugxulo> 16 minutes ago, my how time flies
23:06:43 <Rugxulo> no, 64-bit is not hugely better than 32-bit, nor is 32-bit so high and mighty and awesome that it fully obsoletes 16-bit
23:06:44 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well considering we discussed other things in between yes
23:06:59 <Rugxulo> "x86 in general is crap, but that is what I'm stuck with"
23:07:16 <Rugxulo> all computers, OSes, languages, compilers are crap ... but it's all we've got, so we have to use them to the fullest!
23:07:30 <Rugxulo> GCC is far from perfect, but it's less evil than the others
23:07:48 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you do realise that dropping the whole segmented memory thing x86_64 made a huge step in the right direction. Sure there are still segments, but only used for a way to use thread local data, and that is iirc just used as an offset then into the flat memory
23:08:02 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I have high hopes with clang
23:08:08 <Rugxulo> in theory, fine ... in practice, bad
23:08:15 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what is bad in practise?
23:08:23 <Rugxulo> if everything wasn't closed source and we could all code / fix bugs, it wouldn't matter
23:08:36 <Rugxulo> but removing compatibility in such a proprietary world seems like a bad idea
23:08:43 <Rugxulo> who needs yet another incompatible mess to port to??
23:08:51 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well, non of the really important software for me is closed source apart from bios
23:09:01 <AnMaster> probably some firmware in some devices too
23:09:06 <AnMaster> but that is unlikely to be x86
23:09:11 <Rugxulo> I'm not really complaining about AMD64, I don't hate it (far from it), but it's not fair to obsolete everything else just because it exists
23:09:16 <Rugxulo> two things can co-exist peacefully
23:09:18 <AnMaster> (I doubt my wlan card runs x86 firmware)
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23:09:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I never said that, I think we should obsolete x86 completely
23:09:48 <Rugxulo> I'm no huge proprietary software fan myself, but I'm just saying ... some things can't easily be replaced, hence it's bad to remove compatibility
23:10:02 <Rugxulo> x86 isn't bad enough to obsolete completely
23:10:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I can't see any non-easily replaceable things around me except my ssh key and my gpg key :P
23:10:50 <Rugxulo> you may not prefer pure assembly for your own personal stuff, but it ain't that bad
23:11:18 <Rugxulo> which doesn't work with computed gotos (have you tested CFunge?)
23:11:26 <Rugxulo> WIP but works ... bootstraps itself
23:11:48 <Rugxulo> it has a lot of promise, just not perfect yet (lacking some GCC extensions some people have used too much)
23:12:14 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also for C there are lots of other compilers, tcc and pcc for example
23:12:19 <AnMaster> a bit more sparse when it comes to C99
23:12:48 <Rugxulo> it has no 64-bit support, so I guess you wouldn't ;-)
23:12:50 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, mostly because I prefer protected memory or something
23:13:09 <Rugxulo> (re: dev86, I assume, since OW supports pmode, even Linux)
23:13:21 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you know, I coded for stuff more limited than an 8088
23:13:51 <AnMaster> PIC12F629 unless I misremember
23:14:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, in asm, you can't do C when you have an accumulator machine with 1024 words program memory
23:14:51 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but that is an embedded system
23:15:00 <Rugxulo> BTW, there exist 64-bit assembly programs too, as I guess you know
23:15:03 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, 8 legs, and two of those are used for vcc/gnd
23:15:12 <AnMaster> one was used for serial cable input
23:15:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I know, I written some inline asm myself, non-temporal stores
23:15:41 <Rugxulo> you don't find GCC output a bit bloated? :-/
23:16:00 <AnMaster> with pure C fallbacks and so on
23:16:12 <AnMaster> I go for LISP or erlang most of the time
23:16:19 <Rugxulo> portability is good, no doubt
23:16:29 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, anyway, I had to use the remaining 5 legs to drive 12 leds
23:16:38 <Rugxulo> doesn't Erlang compile to C? (or is that Eiffel?? I forget...)
23:17:00 <fizzie> I have somewhere few incomplete bits of "nesbef", a befunge93 interp for the good old NES. Left it incomplete, got somewhat bored of the 6502-clone asm.
23:17:18 <Rugxulo> have you seen those portable NES clone machines?
23:17:23 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes, I know cfunge compiles on openbsd (manual build, build system itself doesn't seem to work well here), freebsd, solaris (tested once, quite some time ago) and of course linux
23:17:49 <AnMaster> was a once off access basically
23:18:58 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> doesn't Erlang compile to C? (or is that Eiffel?? I forget...) <-- erlang compiles to bytecode, which is then run in the beam vm. you don't see beam directly most of the time, it is invoked as erl
23:19:08 <Rugxulo> I saw a NES clone portable for $30 on eBay (admittedly used, they seem to sell for $40-50 US new)
23:19:11 <AnMaster> erl give you a REPL running in BEAM
23:19:35 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you don't mean a NES emulator do you?
23:19:36 <fizzie> Sparc has got those register windows, they're funky.
23:19:37 <Rugxulo> I just thought that was interesting (since no way in hell do I want to buy an old old machine that will break)
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23:19:47 <Rugxulo> no, a real NES (well, clone)
23:19:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, but the compiler handled that for me :P
23:20:10 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, not sure why I would want one
23:20:21 <Rugxulo> me either, just saying, it's cool that one exists
23:20:32 <Rugxulo> (finally dumb patents expired, and Nintendo hasn't made a NES since 1995)
23:20:49 <Rugxulo> Zelda 2 was pretty good, I thought, but tastes vary
23:20:50 <pikhq> There's been Famiclones for ages.
23:21:02 <Rugxulo> yeah, and Nintendo sued them ad nauseum for years
23:21:14 <pikhq> In those countries they could, yes.
23:21:26 <pikhq> Quite rampant in Asia and Eastern Europe.
23:21:34 <pikhq> ... And South America.
23:22:08 <Rugxulo> I always liked Ninja Gaiden (1,2,3) for NES
23:22:17 <Rugxulo> haven't played in years though (machine broke, doh)
23:22:42 <pikhq> Yeah, the NES is very well-emulated.
23:22:45 <Rugxulo> yeah, which Nintendo spread a lot of FUD about for years also (dummies)
23:23:11 <Rugxulo> I remember LoopyNes being quite fast (written in assembly) for DOS back in the day ;-)
23:23:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: "Emulators are illegal" they say.
23:23:15 <nooga> i can't enable networking in qemu
23:23:22 <nooga> so that gues OS has internet access
23:23:22 <pikhq> As well as "making backups".
23:23:29 <Rugxulo> what they say is basically, "Fair use copyright doesn't exist"
23:23:33 <pikhq> (both actions are perfectly legal. Explicitly so, even.)
23:24:11 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that depends on the country
23:24:30 <pikhq> They claimed this in the US.
23:24:31 <Rugxulo> I sent them an e-mail, "So a NES emulator for Final Fantasy is illegal even though I legit purchased the game? Guess I'll have to buy a PS1 + FF combo pack!!!"
23:24:52 <pikhq> Of course, these are the idiots that also felt that a Game Genie was illegal.
23:24:56 <Rugxulo> and then about a year later (heh, I'm not egotistical to think it was my doing), FF came out for GBA ;-)
23:25:15 <pikhq> *After losing the lawsuit against them because it was legal*.
23:25:49 <Rugxulo> these are the same people who "ported" their borked original (missing level 4) NES Donkey Kong to GBA
23:26:27 <Rugxulo> just seems dumb to whine about clones for a machine they haven't made in ages (1995)
23:26:43 <Rugxulo> as if buying used old-ass machines was any better
23:27:06 <Rugxulo> I mean they stopped in 1995
23:27:16 <pikhq> ... 2003 in Japan?
23:27:28 <coppro> pikhq: this sounds like Stephen Harper
23:27:31 <pikhq> *You could still buy a new Famicom in 2003*?
23:27:49 <Rugxulo> unlike the 7800, their SNES wasn't backwards compatible
23:28:00 <Rugxulo> (although 3rd-party adapter existed but expensive)
23:29:02 <coppro> (also, Nintendo no longer claims emulators to be illegal, though they (correctly) argue that most every use of them to play a real game involves an illegal copy
23:29:23 <Rugxulo> "correctly" is a bit of a stretch since there is no legal way to copy the games
23:29:34 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yes there is.
23:29:35 <Rugxulo> they pretty much prevented fair use
23:29:49 <pikhq> You are perfectly entitled to create a copy of a real cartridge.
23:29:50 <Rugxulo> no, I think those ROM dumpers are illegal themselves (or used to be)
23:30:14 <pikhq> They are *explicitly* allowed by US copyright law.
23:30:24 <pikhq> Not just "kinda-sort fair use", *explicitly allowed*.
23:30:30 <Rugxulo> their argument was the "save data" (e.g. FF or Zelda) was someone else's, hence "proving" that you weren't getting an exact copy of the original, which I thought was a lame thing to say
23:30:32 <coppro> they do not claim that ROM dumps are illegal either
23:30:39 <Rugxulo> yes, I know it is allowed, but Nintendo doesn't think so!
23:30:44 <pikhq> coppro: They used to.
23:30:56 <pikhq> Like, I'm surprised they've *stopped*.
23:31:15 <pikhq> I know they still claimed it in the last Nintendo stuff I got (a GBA)
23:31:29 <Rugxulo> well, I guess I shouldn't really think they'd 100% abide by any (random) law, but their position(s) just makes no sense
23:31:32 <coppro> I'm looking at the website, I don't know about the inserts
23:32:32 <coppro> the language is pretty ambiguous, but does imply that backups are illegal
23:32:41 <coppro> (this from a Wii game manual)
23:33:10 <coppro> but arguably it could just be a claim that backup copies are 'unauthorized' and would thus void the warranty
23:33:25 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> and then about a year later (heh, I'm not egotistical to think it was my doing), FF came out for GBA ;-) <-- FF?
23:33:56 <AnMaster> and what was that "heh, I'm not egotistical to think it was my doing" about?
23:34:05 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
23:34:11 <Rugxulo> because I thought my argument was fair
23:34:40 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I doubt that caused it
23:34:41 <Rugxulo> "Why shouldn't I be allowed to run an emulator with my legally-purchased Final Fantasy? So buying a PS1 + FF combo is a better idea? (gives Nintendo no extra money either)"
23:34:46 <fizzie> fungot: Say something relevant. Is the script I showed you illegal, for example?
23:34:46 <fungot> fizzie: our company may be a shinra uniform......
23:34:48 <Rugxulo> I know it didn't, I admit ;-)
23:35:11 <coppro> Hopefully the Canadian government will finally get smart and fully legalize format-shifting
23:35:26 <coppro> thus making emulations of ripped software legal
23:35:29 <AnMaster> I think I played the one with spoony bard in it
23:37:19 <fizzie> Edward (the sppoony bard) is from IV, not VI.
23:37:21 * Rugxulo was talking about the old, original FF1
23:37:27 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, right. XD
23:37:29 <Rugxulo> not quite as impressive, that one ;-)
23:37:41 <fizzie> VI's the better one. :p
23:37:46 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Ah, the one that's short "plot". :P
23:37:53 <pikhq> fizzie: I have yet to play either.
23:38:02 <pikhq> Though FFVI is next on my "to play" queue.
23:38:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, looking at wikipedia it seems closer to the VI one from the screenshots
23:38:25 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WikibattleFF6.PNG <-- at least that one looks very familiar
23:38:37 <AnMaster> so maybe it wasn't spoony bard after all
23:38:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, but wasn't there some useless bard in VI too?
23:39:07 <pikhq> It must be said, the bard was, in fact, spoony.
23:39:39 <fizzie> I think that was in the FF4 DS remake.
23:39:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, which one was the useless char in FFVI then?
23:41:44 <fizzie> Well... there's the gambler. And that king.
23:41:56 <fizzie> They're not quite as spoony as the bard.
23:43:20 <fizzie> Oh, and the moogle, e's pretty useless.
23:44:24 <AnMaster> weren't there such in secret of mana too?
23:44:32 <AnMaster> hm different game world right?
23:45:23 <AnMaster> oh wikipedia says it is a spin-off
23:45:31 <fizzie> Moogles have spread a bit, I think.
23:45:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, spin-off says wikipedia though
23:46:01 <AnMaster> but yeah different game world, but even in the same series game worlds are inconsistent often
23:46:34 <fizzie> The FF worlds don't have that much to do with themselves between installments.
23:46:45 <AnMaster> did any two zelda game share a similar looking world map. I mean the relative placement of the landmarks and such
23:47:07 <coppro> The newer games have tended to vaguely fit the same shape
23:47:20 <AnMaster> at least secret of mana had a nicer combat system than FFVI did
23:47:24 <fizzie> X-2 was a sequel for X though. Not that I've played any past 9. They're up to, what, 13 or 14 now?
23:47:26 <AnMaster> not sure about the other FF series
23:47:36 <AnMaster> but FFVI had a very annoying combat system
23:47:47 <coppro> there seem to be two competing layouts for Hyrule
23:48:07 <coppro> I'm only counting ones that I can think of being in multiple games
23:48:22 <coppro> the OoT layout and the LttP layout
23:48:38 <AnMaster> coppro, other games had yet other ones iirc?
23:48:47 <Rugxulo> how many Zeldas are there? too many to remember, I think
23:49:07 <AnMaster> to be fair, at least two of the zelda games takes place outside Hyrule
23:49:19 <AnMaster> majora's mask and links awakening
23:49:31 <AnMaster> coppro, which are the remaining ones?
23:49:41 <coppro> Both Oracle games and both DS games
23:49:50 <AnMaster> coppro, what are the DS ones called
23:49:59 <coppro> Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks
23:50:18 <coppro> Wind Waker has Hyrule underwater too
23:50:42 <coppro> dunno about Minish Cap's map; never played it
23:50:48 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda
23:50:59 <coppro> yeah, Zeldapedia counts 15 released main-series games
23:51:16 <Rugxulo> I guess that includes the (allegedly horrible) CD-i versions?
23:51:22 <AnMaster> anyway, which combat system do you prefer: that of FFVI or that of Secret of Mana?
23:51:38 <pikhq> Rugxulo: No such games.
23:53:15 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series
23:53:17 <coppro> looking at a picture of Minish Cap's world map, it seems to have a different one
23:53:58 <pikhq> Rugxulo: It's called "discontinuity", not "ignorance of the existence".
23:54:32 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:54:34 <fizzie> fungot: The sword, alone...?
23:54:34 <fungot> fizzie: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. you may use that " rainbow shell? can eat much!
23:55:12 <fizzie> (Was hoping for "can't stop" there.)
23:55:30 <AnMaster> fungot, now do what fizzie told you to
23:55:30 <fungot> AnMaster: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
23:55:51 <AnMaster> fungot, almost, you had "sword" there but not the rest
23:55:51 <fungot> AnMaster: but cyrus! are you leaving! it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?! well, remember that you can log in anywhere on the world map! need a brief weapons and items seminar?
23:56:00 <fungot> AnMaster: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
23:56:06 <fungot> AnMaster: yes, it's been awhile prometheus!!! i give you 1 weapon or 1 item! what you do? wake you, but need dactyl?!
23:56:45 <fizzie> Lots of exclamation marks though.
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00:02:44 * Sgeo wonders if it might be nicer to have them implement HQ9+ instead
00:04:00 * pikhq may need to write a very efficient HQ9+ compiler. :P
00:04:23 <fizzie> Nah. With bf, they'll get a feeling of accomplishment after getting it to run a hello world proggie.
00:05:05 <fizzie> Or at least they should. If they don't, they're somehow defective, and you should return them to the manufacturer.
00:05:05 <pikhq> Precompute the entire output string!
00:06:44 <Sgeo> fizzie, I'm [probably] not going to ask them to implement []
00:06:54 <Sgeo> Also, only one person will actually complete it, so..
00:06:57 <Sgeo> [it's a contest]
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00:28:44 <pikhq> ... Why did I just write that?
00:28:58 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/KDge
00:29:03 <pikhq> It precomputes the string.
00:31:49 <pikhq> Stupidest compiler ever.
00:35:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
00:35:48 <pikhq> AKA stupid language.
00:35:49 <EgoBot> Unknown command 'u'. Legal commands are:
00:36:22 <pikhq> I was about to tell you where the Esolang page was.
00:36:28 <pikhq> Then I saw that you wrote it.
00:37:13 <oerjan> well at least i don't have alzheimer's
00:37:16 <pikhq> I think I love the X command.
00:38:12 * pikhq would be heavily tempted to make that command load the rest of the file into memory *and call it*.
00:38:30 <nooga> !swedish i think i'll be going to sleep now
00:38:31 <EgoBot> i theenk i'll be-a gueeng tu sleep noo
00:38:59 <oerjan> `translatefromto en sv swedish my ass
00:40:30 <Sgeo> For perspective: For a programming contest that went on for a week or so, involving the incredibly arduous task of making a script that compiles all .cpp files in a directory, outputting the name of each file and any errors to a certain file, my entry was the FIRST one
00:41:06 <Sgeo> pikhq, sarcasm
00:41:23 <pikhq> I was a bit worried otherwise.
00:41:57 <Sgeo> Although I did end up kind of relying on a trick involving piping the results of a find ... -print into a while loop
00:42:12 <Sgeo> -exec was being a pain
00:50:25 <Sgeo> DAMMIT, I'M TRYING TO POST "VALUABLE" INFO TO REDDIT, AND IT'S NOT HAPPENING
00:51:03 <oerjan> their spam filter is _such_ a bitch...
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04:35:38 <augur> sonic screwdriver! :D
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13:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It annoys me hugely that what the Irish call cheesecakes do not, in fact, have any cheese in them.
13:04:17 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: openTTD time).
13:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> They are a pastry thing with sponge in them, with jam in the bottom.
13:05:38 * oerjan looks at xkcd's color survey and realizes his childhood room was rather close to the unsure-whether-boy-or-girl baby room color
13:06:36 <oerjan> they are really just cheesy cakes, then?
13:07:20 <lereah_> My room as a kid was a blue wallpaper with animals on it
13:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't remember what colour the walls in my room were.
13:08:08 <oerjan> that's the stereotypical boy color, lereah_
13:08:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that there may have been an Owl and the Pussycat decoration on them, though.
13:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And they were yellow when I left that house, but they had been repainted.
13:09:22 <oerjan> i've probably repressed the repaintings
13:10:51 <oerjan> lereah_: aka the stereotypical girl color.
13:11:03 <oerjan> but maybe france is different
13:11:23 <oerjan> (that last comment made no sense)
13:11:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i know, i've read that it switched
13:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to have a lower degree of precision in colour names than most.
13:13:52 <lereah_> I think I have a photo of that wallpaper
13:14:15 <lereah_> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/CAT/CAT2.jpg
13:15:04 <oerjan> lereah_: very realistic painted animals, there
13:15:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The disproportionate colour names for males and females are good for a joke, but fall down easily if you think about it.
13:15:45 <lereah_> oerjan : They were made of colored squares
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13:16:36 * oerjan had some of those Mr. books, in norwegian of course
13:16:54 <oerjan> well technically may still have them stored away
13:17:57 <lereah_> But did you have the kittens
13:18:20 <oerjan> no. there was a dog at one time, he had to be put down, the bastards.
13:18:34 <oerjan> (he attacked another dog iirc)
13:19:52 <HackEgo> * Qui jouit du bonheur, qui possde ce qui peut le rendre content; Se dit la condition, de la situation, de la vie de celui qui est heureux ... \ [22]fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/heureux \ * En parlant d'un homme heureux : "Il est n coiff." On ne sait pas ce que a signifie, et l'interlocuteur non plus.
13:19:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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13:23:25 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en die
13:24:02 <oerjan> it means what babies do when they get milk from their mothers
13:24:23 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en rolig
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13:24:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: famous swedish-norwegian false friend
13:25:17 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en pule
13:25:25 <oerjan> `translatefromto sv en pula
13:25:38 <oerjan> hm that may be hard to translate
13:25:45 <oerjan> it's completely innocent though
13:26:31 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: you! take! we find! but you are true heros. the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
13:26:34 <oerjan> something like mess around
13:26:57 * oerjan isn't actually sure himself
13:27:12 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:29:33 <fungot> oerjan: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone
13:30:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: but, we are far outnumbered! it's cyrus! run away for now!!! after them!
13:30:10 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:30:15 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
13:30:49 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:30:49 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't really have that much in the way of esolangs, i think
13:31:00 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
13:31:11 <oerjan> although anybody could put one there
13:31:17 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18591 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
13:31:25 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
13:32:30 <oerjan> possibly wolfram alpha have changed their format since last the command was used...
13:32:57 <oerjan> Gregor cannot keep up with a site that doesn't _want_ people to script it...
13:33:07 <oerjan> without a lot of work, anyway
13:33:31 <oerjan> (in fact it's against their TOS iirc (vaguely))
13:35:32 <HackEgo> Sep 18, 2008 ... Edited: This is not an improper integral, because the integral of 5/x is 5 ln [ abs(x)] = 5 ln abs(-7) - 5 ln abs(2) = 5 ln (7) - 5 ln (2) ... Well, the function ...
13:35:45 <HackEgo> bin/creatures: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
13:36:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's just google, not that advanced mathematically
13:36:11 <oerjan> but it has units and stuff
13:36:25 <HackEgo> 1 U.S. dollar = 0.770950582 Euros
13:36:44 <oerjan> i just wondered what creatures _was_
13:36:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 100 'Jump to:' | \ tail -n +3 | \ sed 's/ */ /g'
13:38:25 <oerjan> i may have to use my browser to find that out :(
13:39:01 <oerjan> "Welcome to the Creatures Wiki - a place where you can find out about the Creatures artificial life games, and ..."
13:39:15 <oerjan> find out what kind of creatures the creatures command looks up
13:41:55 <oerjan> it's because we don't have world communism, duh
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15:16:43 <nooga> they decommissioned last Odra 1305 (Polish mainframe computer) after 34 years of continuous work without any malfunctions
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15:21:23 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0RVj9GbIL0 behold
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15:27:55 <Gregor> Y'know, the whole idea of HackEgo is that I don't HAVE to keep up, ANYBODY can keep up if they want to :P
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15:33:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover, oerjan (not here): ^^^
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16:32:45 <nooga> odra odra 1305 is so awesome
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17:15:54 <P4> taka odra byla w GZE w latach 70-tych, a moze podobna :)
17:16:24 <P4> a moze 80-tych
17:16:24 * P4 nie pamieta
17:21:45 <P4> just wondering do you guys know brainfuck mIRC script (:
17:23:29 * pikhq makes a witty observation regarding your mother and a nunnery
17:23:30 <P4> it should parse and execute bf code after triggering it using !brainfuck <code> by apropriate users
17:24:09 <pikhq> Might I suggest the Egoest of the Bots?
17:24:13 <pikhq> Or perhaps Fungot?
17:24:25 <fungot> pikhq: the masamune!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!
17:24:26 <P4> could you provide an example of bf code, please? :)
17:25:37 <pikhq> !bf >-[<->+++++++]<-.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>----[<+++>----]<.------------.>--[<->---]<+.--------.+++.------.--------.>----[<+++>----]<.>------[<---->+]<+.
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17:36:41 <nooga> P4: i've never seen you here
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18:02:50 <P4> i have been here maybe once. is that a problem? (:
18:19:06 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:19:12 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
18:26:01 <EgoBot> interps/1l/1l_a.bin: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
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18:35:28 <fizzie> Works at least on my tr, though quotation can always mess stuff up.
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18:36:18 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It has a C *compiler*. :)
18:40:37 <pikhq> It attempts to compile, if it fails, it wraps in includes and int main(){}.
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20:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a name for the set of numbers a+bi, where a, b are in N?
20:24:27 <Gregor> Naturally complex numbers ;)
20:25:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And when a and b are in Z they're integrally complex numbers?
20:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Which leads to the logical name for when a and b are in R: really complex numbers.
20:27:34 <Gregor> How about when a and b are in C?
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20:40:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Weird... When I ask Sage to plot sin(x)/x it just shows a parabola.
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21:17:31 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> And when a and b are in Z they're integrally complex numbers?
21:17:39 <oerjan> that's known as gaussian integers
21:17:57 <oerjan> i don't recall a name for when they're also positive
21:18:12 <oerjan> gaussian integers in the first quadrant, perhaps
21:21:45 <oerjan> <Gregor> Y'know, the whole idea of HackEgo is that I don't HAVE to keep up, ANYBODY can keep up if they want to :P
21:21:55 <oerjan> yeah but i'm lazier than thou so THERE
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21:24:53 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it seems to be stripping multiple lines.
21:25:11 <oerjan> actually EgoBot tries to send the remaining lines as DCC
22:02:12 <oerjan> it's a protocol for communicating directly between irc clients without going through the server. iiuc.
22:03:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:03:40 <oerjan> in my client you need to accept the connection before seeing any text (i've added EgoBot to the automatic accept list)
22:05:12 <fizzie> Do any of the web clients do DCC?
22:05:32 <oerjan> i vaguely believe this is for security reasons, not all DCC commands are safe or something
22:06:22 <oerjan> hm ircii is what i used before, that's a really old client. although maybe it's still developed.
22:06:34 <oerjan> well irssi is probably really old too
22:06:48 <oerjan> but more advanced than ircii was
22:06:48 <fizzie> Not as old as ircii, though.
22:07:14 <fizzie> There's the epic4 branch of ircii too, I wonder if that's still alive.
22:08:13 <oerjan> they're both terminal-based, not gui
22:08:47 * Phantom_Hoover is trying out Empathy, and it's even worse than ChatZilla
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22:10:57 <oerjan> /set dcc_autochat_masks = EgoBot is the option i used
22:11:14 <oerjan> /set dcc_autochat_masks EgoBot
22:12:11 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.24589 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
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22:12:34 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't use DCC, it just puts \ between
22:13:31 <oerjan> try something like !show slashes
22:13:35 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
22:13:46 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
22:15:23 -!- phantomhoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:16:18 <oerjan> the /server add command can be used to set up passwords and autoconnections
22:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's even confusinger, mainly as I can't find any docs.
22:19:13 <oerjan> /help certainly works here
22:19:33 <oerjan> however: do you now see Act: in the lower status bar?
22:20:01 <oerjan> that's the number of another window probably containing your help message
22:20:11 <oerjan> press alt-number to change to it
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22:20:52 <oerjan> i guess irssi has a bit of a learning curve :)
22:21:05 <fizzie> Or esc-number if alt won't work. I ran into meta-challenged terms so often at one point that I now use esc instead of alt all the time.
22:21:17 <oerjan> and i still use just the bare minimum myself
22:21:21 <fizzie> There are a number of irssi tutorials.
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22:21:40 <phantomhoover> The learning curve of something flattens at how hard it is to find the docs.
22:21:50 -!- phantomhoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:21:58 <fizzie> Our university has several, on web-pages of courses that have an official channel.
22:23:01 <fizzie> http://irssi.org/documentation has a "startup HOWTO".
22:23:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ah, /window show <number> to get it in a split screen
22:24:34 <oerjan> alt-up or alt-down then changes between them
22:24:55 * oerjan makes no claim that this is the most efficient method
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22:51:37 <P4> sure, don't ask me about that
22:57:47 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
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23:00:27 <nooga> !sadbf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
23:01:50 <fizzie> Is there a BF in hackego? If not, maybe someone should put one in, to act as a sort of a lowest-common-denominator language.
23:02:05 <fizzie> Is there a BF in hackego? If not, maybe someone should put one in, to act as a sort of a lowest-common-denominator language.
23:02:11 <fizzie> Two bfbots is a bit little.
23:02:42 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
23:03:18 <Ilari> fizzie: BTW: apt-get address preference thingie was not just apt-get, it was getaddrinfo. Fixed by making label and perecedence of 6to4 be the same as percendence and label of general IPv6.
23:03:34 <oerjan> i think that's a wiki lookup
23:03:38 <nooga> how is HackEgo built?
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23:08:07 <augur> are elections today?
23:08:37 <coppro> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5008/125/
23:08:53 <nooga> guys, where are the graphs showing oerjan's sleep hours ? :D
23:10:26 <nooga> fizzie: where are those pretty graphs?
23:13:18 <nooga> fizzie fizzie fizzie
23:13:47 <oerjan> seems he has fizzled out
23:15:06 <fizzie> I don't have very new graphs of anything.
23:15:53 <nooga> how about old ones?
23:16:35 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test7.png
23:16:54 <fizzie> Also some other numbers than 7 for other styles.
23:17:33 <pikhq> I have regular sleeping hours. Who knew.
23:17:41 <fizzie> And the times are probably Finnish localtime; EET/EEST.
23:18:17 <nooga> I see Alise's school hours
23:18:32 <pikhq> Only a 5 hours range I've *not* been around in. :P
23:19:12 <pikhq> And oerjan and oklopol never sleep.
23:20:18 <Gregor> nooga: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/
23:20:18 <fizzie> And good is always vigilant.
23:20:35 <fizzie> The test6 graph has absolute values, as opposed to relative fraction of all talk at a given time like test7 does.
23:21:31 <pikhq> Oklopol still doesn't sleep.
23:22:29 <nooga> what was that cool functional forth-like language that everybody was talking about some time ago (trollface)
23:22:53 <pikhq> Functional... Forth-like?
23:23:12 <nooga> hmmm, it had a stack
23:23:12 <pikhq> The only thing I know of that fits that description is Reverse Polish Lisp.
23:23:27 <nooga> it was much like it
23:25:24 <oerjan> ^ul ((Underload)~:aSS)(Underload)~:aSS
23:25:24 <fungot> ((Underload)~:aSS)(Underload)~:aSS
23:35:45 <coppro> time to complain to MPs :(
23:37:27 <oerjan> coppro: isn't it a little late to complain when they're being replaced?
23:37:51 <oerjan> or wait you were canadian, n... right
23:38:09 * oerjan got confused when you answered when the uk election was
23:38:18 <oerjan> CLEARLY ONLY A BRIT WOULD KNOW
23:40:10 <nooga> i think i'll implement underload-like lang in Verilog
23:40:35 <nooga> since i've got FPGA dev board
23:41:04 <nooga> it could be a nice exercise before building machine lisp
23:41:09 <coppro> oerjan: Some of us care about current events worldwide, even!
23:42:08 <nooga> how about the death of Polish president, all high generals + some government ppl
23:42:19 <oerjan> nooga: that's SO last month
23:42:21 <nooga> that was an event!
23:42:34 <hiato> What lang is hackbot written in?
23:42:57 <nooga> i cant imagine how stupid you must be to put all vips along with high command in one plane
23:43:07 <oerjan> hiato: something non-esoteric, i assume
23:43:16 <hiato> oerjan: aaah, oh well
23:44:17 <oerjan> hiato: it's a linux inside a jail with mercury versioning
23:44:37 <hiato> oerjan: how is that non-esoteric? :P
23:44:49 <oerjan> hiato: well it doesn't use an esolang afaik
23:45:49 <oerjan> nooga: i recall the other polish vip plane was grounded for repairs?
23:47:18 <nooga> they could hire some planes from polish airlines
23:47:28 <oerjan> but yeah _someone_ should win a darwin award for that one
23:47:44 <coppro> Anyone know the proper address for an MP?
23:47:49 <coppro> Dear Honorable Member?
23:48:11 <nooga> 00:43 < oerjan> hiato: it's a linux inside a jail with mercury versioning
23:48:16 <nooga> what kind of jail?
23:48:34 <oerjan> nooga: i don't remember
23:48:56 <hiato> coppro: Dear Hon. N. Clegg, MP
23:49:07 <oerjan> nooga: it has a custom libc
23:49:52 <hiato> coppro: But it wouldn't be Hon. unless they were, in fact, The Honurable So and So
23:50:41 <pikhq> nooga: It is in a chroot without any files other than the dynamic linker.
23:50:42 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en klegg
23:51:20 <pikhq> Actually. No, I don't think it even has that.
23:52:23 <oerjan> hiato: a pun on nick clegg
23:52:36 <oerjan> i think some people in the british parliament would appreciate it
23:53:17 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
23:53:23 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less
23:53:42 <oerjan> there are plenty of files
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00:17:03 <nooga> how does one become a millionaire?
00:17:19 <Oranjer> do you really want to know?
00:17:35 <oerjan> you start as a billionaire and then you use money like crazy
00:17:54 <nooga> oerjan: that does not count
00:18:10 <Oranjer> Malcolm Gladwell has some theories in his book Outliers, nooga
00:19:06 <Oranjer> basically, one needs 10,000 hours to become a good enough expert in a field to make the big bucks
00:20:26 <nooga> I can't even bargain properly
00:22:56 <pikhq> nooga: Two options: luck, and being born a millionaire.
00:23:49 <Oranjer> I disagree--luck provides the opportunity, perhaps, but hard work is usually necessary to act on it
00:24:31 <nooga> i'm pretty sure that iI
00:24:46 <nooga> 'I've spent more than 10000 hours using my computer
00:28:26 <Oranjer> 10,000 hours is roughly 10 years
00:29:03 <Oranjer> it isn't just "using" something, it's practicing something--continually pushing toward the perfection of this use
00:30:21 <nooga> i think another aspect of success is that you have to dare
00:30:43 <nooga> to take action and risk
00:30:48 <uorygl> 10,000 hours is about 5 years working full time.
00:31:28 <nooga> it's 1.56981132075472
00:32:00 <uorygl> Working 24/7 is plausible, if dreaming counts.
00:32:38 <pikhq> Oranjer: 10,000 hours is a year and a couple months.
00:33:03 <oerjan> `calc 10000 hours in years
00:33:06 <HackEgo> 10 000 hours = 1.14079553 years
00:33:32 <Oranjer> uorygl's estimate is better--I am wondering how Gladwell came up with the ten years he often cites in his book
00:33:56 <pikhq> Who *merely* works full time on something? :P
00:33:58 <nooga> roughly it's like working 4 hours a day for 1 years
00:33:59 <uorygl> By assuming you practice for 20 hours a week, I guess.
00:34:43 <nooga> oh, i've had error because of int/float conversion
00:34:43 <pikhq> By the time you hit competence, you're likely to spend much, much more time doing... Whatever.
00:34:54 <Oranjer> 4 hours a day seems like it wouldn't be your job, just a hobby
00:34:56 <pikhq> Assuming you actually give a damn about it.
00:35:32 <pikhq> Try and make it so you could get paid doing $thing?
00:35:56 <uorygl> Well, I'm going to go try to save the world again.
00:36:06 <uorygl> ("Again" attaches to "try" there, not "save".)
00:36:11 <Oranjer> ah, the three are venn diagram, pikhq?
00:36:41 <Oranjer> save the world how, uorygl?
00:36:41 <nooga> i've noticed that i love to do stupid things like esolangs and i can spend days on stupid experiments with electronics
00:36:56 <nooga> but when i must code something useful - i procrastinate
00:37:11 <coppro> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/05/04/f-gollom-arizona-immigration.html
00:38:45 <nooga> useless and bizzare = cool
00:50:50 <nooga> ah, there's nothing better than setting your alarm clock in cron
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07:15:08 <myndzi> qwerty wasn't the first layout you learned?
07:17:41 <lament> i learned dvorak first
07:17:58 <lament> now switching is hard!
07:18:02 <myndzi> how did that come about?
07:18:09 <myndzi> i switched the other direction ;)
07:18:12 <myndzi> but i found it quite easy
07:19:44 <lament> maybe because qwerty is just harder :)
07:20:49 <myndzi> it's less natural feeling, yes
07:20:54 <myndzi> but i don't suspect it's any harder to learn
07:21:04 <myndzi> you are, of course, avoiding dvorak like the plague?
07:21:18 <myndzi> the only real way to learn is to go cold turkey on what you know
07:21:21 <lament> im especially confused by the letters b and y
07:21:29 <myndzi> fuck that, i always mix up b
07:21:40 <lament> they're very close to their dvorak positions, but on opposite hands
07:21:48 <myndzi> pretty much exactly why
07:22:24 <myndzi> you could always learn colemak or something haha
07:22:27 <myndzi> this is #esoteric after all
07:22:28 <lament> but also i just keep instinctively typing in dvorak
07:22:34 <myndzi> why restrict it to just languages?
07:22:44 <myndzi> let's all type in esoteric keyboard layouts too!
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07:22:56 <lament> colemak is a dvorak substitute
07:23:05 <myndzi> honestly it took me about a week to learn to touch type dvorak from knowing qwerty
07:23:18 <myndzi> i don't expect it will take you much different to do the reverse, if you just irc a lot
07:23:34 <myndzi> eventually i relearned qwerty and now i'm pretty much bilingual
07:23:38 <lament> im touch typing, just really slowly
07:23:41 <myndzi> i can type about 100wpm in either
07:23:49 <myndzi> the think-and-peck stage ;)
07:24:07 <myndzi> i think i was up to about 30wpm in a month
07:24:16 <myndzi> the one-letter-at-a-time stage
07:24:24 <myndzi> but without the pauses for "where the hell is that key?"
07:24:25 <lament> do you ever confuse layouts
07:24:37 <myndzi> mostly because of environmental conditioning
07:24:42 <myndzi> i'd be hard pressed to type qwerty at home
07:24:53 <myndzi> though i have an easier time typing dvorak arbitrarily on any other keyboard
07:24:55 <lament> im especially worried about things like vim
07:25:16 <lament> hjkl on qwerty is dumb :)
07:25:17 <myndzi> how did you get by in a program like that with dvorak as your la yout?
07:25:38 <lament> most vim shortcuts are mnemonics
07:25:58 <lament> and those actually make more sense on dvorak imo
07:26:07 <myndzi> lots of games and various programs have button choices based on physical location on a qwerty layout though, at least in part
07:26:18 <myndzi> hjkl makes no sense on dvorak :P
07:26:28 <myndzi> h and l are completely arbitrary
07:26:30 <lament> it makes lots of sense
07:26:40 <myndzi> if jk was like left-right then i guess that pair would be ok at least
07:26:50 <myndzi> i don't actually know vi keys, but i think hjkl was navigation?
07:26:52 <lament> right hand is for moving horizontally
07:27:02 <lament> h is for left, l is for right
07:27:12 <myndzi> at least it worked out that way
07:27:15 <lament> thats why they're on opposite sides
07:27:25 <myndzi> but it's still a bit of a stretch to say it makes sense :P
07:27:32 <lament> left hand is for moving vertically
07:27:46 <lament> and j and k are both very convenient
07:28:21 <lament> on qwerty its stupid because you cant actually put your fingers over hjkl
07:28:41 <myndzi> right hand: one space to the left
07:28:47 <lament> unless you move them from the home position in a way in which you would never do otherwise
07:29:12 <myndzi> and moving your hand away from home key is better than using TWO hands in weird arbitrary ways? ;)
07:29:15 <lament> if i wanted to move my hand from the home position, id use a mouse
07:29:45 <myndzi> hl on dvorak is not exactly home position either
07:30:04 <myndzi> h is the only homerow key
07:30:25 <lament> your hand is on the home position if any fingers are on the right home keys
07:30:42 <lament> your mind knows the exact location of everything
07:31:02 <myndzi> i have little bumps on the index home row buttons
07:31:05 <myndzi> they are plenty to orient me
07:31:27 <lament> exactly, that's why there're only two bumps and not 8
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15:06:19 <phantomhoover> It appears that there is no Core Wars fanfic on the web.
15:06:31 -!- phantomhoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:12:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
15:12:37 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
15:12:56 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine!?
15:15:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
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16:25:40 <beinghuman> are they insane because their wiki doesn't load?
16:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> More generally esoteric languages that aren't designed for practical programming.
16:27:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Some are to investigate ideas, some are meant to be deliberately impossible, and some are just jokes.
16:28:12 <augur> painful minimalism
16:28:22 <augur> scheme is minimalist, but its not esoteric because its actually usable.
16:28:29 <beinghuman> i'm looking for a room on freenode full of people willing to beta test opensource software
16:28:52 <augur> try #opensourcebetas
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16:30:38 <beinghuman> augur: thanks. as soon as I mentioned it in that room about 50 people volunteered.
16:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I mentioned it a while ago and alise thought it was hilarious.
16:33:14 -!- augur has set topic: Not infact a place to find opensource beta testers. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:34:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Not, in fact, a place to find open-source beta testers..
16:34:35 <augur> also fuck your grammar, bitch
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16:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Not, in fact, a place to find open-source beta testers. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
16:35:04 <augur> no, it wasnt both.
16:35:12 <nooga> MY BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIN
16:35:34 <augur> it was nothing but orthography.
16:35:45 <augur> commas are orthography.
16:36:17 <beinghuman> http://conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Richard_Dawkins_Project#Dawkins_the_clown
16:36:46 <augur> hence why i said it was nothing but orthography
16:36:56 <augur> it is not, however, grammar.
16:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> beinghuman: Out of curiosity, how did you find this place?
16:37:13 <nooga> what do you know about ortography!
16:37:20 <augur> nooga: im a linguist.
16:38:09 <augur> and as you can seen from wikipedia, i don't consider orthography to be grammar: "Linguists do not normally use the term to refer to orthographical rules, although usage books and style guides that call themselves grammars may also refer to spelling and punctuation."
16:38:12 <nooga> augur: check out ż/rz h/ch ń/ni ą/om ć/ci and separate nie-
16:38:21 <augur> ("the term" there being "grammar")
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16:38:59 <beinghuman> lol at this shit storm for dawkins calling the pop a soft pedophile
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16:44:15 <beinghuman> or am I falling prey to Poe's law here?
16:44:36 <beinghuman> that picture just makes me think it could be fake
16:46:32 -!- pikhq has set topic: Not, in fact, a place to find open-source beta testers. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:47:31 <pikhq> augur: Clearly there should be a language where all the punctuation is actually grammatically relevant.
16:48:12 <augur> punctuation is an orthographic device conventionalized to demarcate different grammatical properties
16:48:26 <augur> but punctuation doesn't exist in the language itself
16:50:15 <pikhq> Yes. My thoughts were more along the lines of making punctuation just be a very, very short way of writing some sort of word or phrase that should be said in various places. For instance, "foo, bar, qux quuxy." would be read as "foo comma bar comma qux quuxy stop".
16:50:20 <pikhq> This is, of course, silly.
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16:51:35 <pikhq> Anyways. All this is still kinda beside the point.
16:51:57 <pikhq> That being "orthography is not 'part of the language' but rather just some conventions to encode it"
16:54:26 <augur> pikhq: its doable. in written japanese, for instance, i believe the convention is to use periods to end sentences. asking a question is either "nani nani ka." or "nani nani?"
16:54:26 <pikhq> The language I'm speaking would still be English, even if I opted to write it using Chinese characters.
16:54:40 <augur> where the ? sort of consumes the ka (and .)
16:55:07 <nooga> Chinese characters aren't built for expressing English
16:55:27 <pikhq> augur: Not *quite* the same. "?", much like in English, is merely indicative of an inquisitive tone.
16:56:01 <pikhq> nooga: Surprisingly, it works quite decently when you treat it a bit like Japanese does.
16:56:09 <augur> pikhq: well, syntacticians would say the inquisitive tone is actually the result of a silent "ka" in there ;)
16:56:26 <pikhq> augur: Isn't necessarily *actually* a question.
16:56:40 <augur> neither are things in english with said tones!
16:56:59 <pikhq> Whereas with "ka", it absolutely must be a question.
16:57:09 <nooga> pikhq: listen to Japanese speaking English
16:57:35 <nooga> bible black -> baiiuburu buraku
16:57:41 <augur> rissen tsu japonizu supeakingu ingurishu
16:57:58 <pikhq> I prefer listening to Japanese speaking Japanese.
16:58:19 <pikhq> The English mangling, it is much less.
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18:39:04 * Rugxulo is confused ... wtf is Conservapedia?
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18:43:20 <Rugxulo> I knew there were other *pedias (uncyclopedia, most notably), though
18:43:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Now it's just a bunch of trolls and morons trolling and being moronic.
18:45:20 <Rugxulo> vs. the rest of the Internet???
18:45:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, and the rest of the Internet isn't entertaining.
18:47:46 <fizzie> Not even erotic Core War fanfics? How strange.
18:48:37 <fizzie> Why'd you ask, then? Anyway, I assume you'd just describe the actions of the programs in a sexy way, or something.
18:48:56 <Rugxulo> http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=119
18:49:15 <Rugxulo> don't worry, it's very tame ;-)
18:49:40 <fizzie> Tame? There's photorealistic (well, almost) pictures of nude people in it!
18:50:18 <Rugxulo> it's very bad pixelated art
18:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I try to write erotic Core War fanfic here as a joke, but I can never finish the sentences.
18:51:24 <Rugxulo> BTW, this is one argument against unlocked consoles ;-)
18:51:33 <fizzie> Rugxulo: You just need to squint a bit.
18:51:35 <Rugxulo> people make strange stuff sometimes ;-))
18:52:00 <Rugxulo> you can barely tell who the man is!
18:52:28 <fizzie> For a bit less work-safe more of same, there's a cracked.com list, http://www.cracked.com/article_17206_the-10-most-perverted-old-school-video-games.html
18:52:42 <fizzie> Don't click if you're not the sort of person who should be clicking that sort of links, and so on.
18:54:09 <Rugxulo> well, it's hardly too bad if it's fake art
18:56:46 <Rugxulo> seriously, I think Atari was offended that their unlocked 2600 had so many lame games from third parties, hence they made later consoles have to be signed first
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19:06:09 <Rugxulo> rotflmao : http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/seanbaby/naughty04b.gif
19:06:17 <Rugxulo> (Atari 2600 graphic, horribly bad)
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19:07:46 <Rugxulo> if that doesn't make you laugh, nothing will ;-)
19:09:03 <Rugxulo> Boong-ga Boong-ga ... ha, lamest . game . evah
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19:14:04 <Rugxulo> lol "WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE STICK THEIR FINGER UP RANDOM STRANGER'S ASSES FOR FUN.
19:14:47 <Rugxulo> the damn comments are funnier than the article!
19:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I will award one internet to the first person who can write erotic Core War fanfic.
19:17:42 <Rugxulo> "In Japan, there is even a TV gameshow where a celebrity routinely kanchōs random people" ... yikes!
19:19:19 <pikhq> Kanchou is... Fucking bizarre.
19:19:46 <pikhq> Even by Japanese standards.
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20:44:14 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 1679 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
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20:45:20 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:45:30 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
20:45:40 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
20:52:44 <pikhq> !c ((void(*)())NULL)();
20:52:45 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 1887 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:54:33 <pikhq> Clearly I expected there to be a function at NULL.
21:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%d\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%d\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%d\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%p\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:02:34 <pikhq> Congrats, you've learned about truncation!
21:02:51 <pikhq> ... And a little bit about two's complement.
21:10:40 <pikhq> Lies and I feel like having a sandwich!
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22:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So, what party best represents the views of the esoteric programmers?
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22:12:30 <pikhq> Depends on region, particular esoteric programmer, and whether or not we have to pick ones that are in any way influential.
22:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: I thought hagbart was the guy in the Illuminatus! trilogy.
22:14:08 <oerjan> hm could be, i haven't read that
22:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: But whose policies consider the downtrodden esoteric programmers?
22:14:37 <oerjan> another machine here is named tyrell, obviously from bladerunner
22:15:11 <oerjan> otoh hagbart is a norwegian name
22:15:22 <pikhq> Sadly not a real party.
22:15:41 <oerjan> and some of the other machines (at least used to be) named after norwegian children's movie characters
22:15:51 <oerjan> (kanutten & romeo-klive)
22:17:59 <oerjan> nvg's first server was named swix, after a norwegian ski wax
22:18:11 <oerjan> (it was a vax running ultrix)
22:19:10 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
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22:19:24 <oerjan> i assumed you got hagbart from my hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no reverse ip address
22:19:37 <oerjan> "the network(ing) group"
22:20:13 <oerjan> for the ntnu university
22:20:35 <oerjan> it actual has two computer clubs (the other being pvv, programvareverkstedet)
22:21:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i haven't visited the actual club location for years
22:21:46 <oerjan> not since the great move (part of the merger of the two parts of university that the two computer clubs were at)
22:22:04 <oerjan> i just use my old shell account and web page there
22:22:37 <oerjan> in earlier times, we used to have pizza nights and stuff
22:23:06 <oerjan> it is possible the more active people still do
22:23:28 <oerjan> i'm not really a real programmer anyway
22:26:24 <oerjan> but in fact i've been wondering about that hagbart name myself, it's not a character i recognise
22:28:55 <oerjan> there were enough hits for hagbart celine that i didn't notice
22:29:22 <oerjan> but only hagbard has a wikipedia page, obviously
22:29:36 <oerjan> also, absolutely nothing
22:30:05 <oerjan> it would appear that hagar the horrible is called hagbard in danish
22:30:19 <oerjan> (and hårek in norwegian fwiw)
22:32:12 <oerjan> both being more genuine viking names
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00:03:50 <Sgeo> My laptop is, for all intents and purposes, dead
00:03:57 <Sgeo> Needs a new power cable
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00:26:06 <uorygl> `translate programvareverkstedet
00:26:08 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
00:26:44 <uorygl> Meh, Google Translate says it's "software workshop".
00:27:49 <uorygl> It says 'verk' means 'plant' and 'stedet' means 'instead'.
00:28:03 <oerjan> hm i thought `translate used google translate
00:28:06 <uorygl> So maybe it's a plant instead of being a workshop.
00:28:16 <oerjan> that's almost nonsense
00:28:27 <uorygl> `translate verk, stedet
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00:28:51 <oerjan> it doesn't mean instead unless you prepend "i"
00:29:05 <uorygl> Does 'stedet' just mean 'stead', then?
00:29:43 <oerjan> verk has several meanings
00:31:16 <uorygl> Jatsu tsappari dikkari dallan tittari tillan titstan dulla, dipidapi dallaa ruppati rupiran kurikan kukka ja kirikan kuu.
00:31:36 <uorygl> Finnish-style gibberish.
00:32:44 <uorygl> I notice that that part doesn't contain "s" except as part of "ts".
00:33:16 <oerjan> i didn't know ts- in the beginning of words was allowed in finnish
00:33:26 <oerjan> but then it _is_ gibberish, you say
00:34:00 <pikhq> Man. That looks a lot like Japanese-style jibberish.
00:34:36 <uorygl> "titstan" isn't possible in Japanese, but I think the rest is.
00:34:39 <pikhq> Of course, *actual Finnish* looks a lot like Japanese-style jibberish. :P
00:34:43 <oerjan> they _do_ have a bit similar phonology, with lots of cv syllables...
00:35:02 <pikhq> uorygl: "l" is not a phoneme in Japanese.
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00:38:57 <Sgeo> At least this is an opportunity to load some old music onto my N1
00:39:20 <uorygl> {.iatsutsapa ri di ka ri da lantita ri ti lantitstandula di pi da pi da la ru pa ti ri pi rankuri kankuka .ia kiri kanku}
00:40:07 <uorygl> {.iatsutsapa ri di ka ri da lantita ri ti lantitstandula di pi da pi da la ru pa ti ri pi rankuri kankuka .ia ki ri kanku}
00:40:34 * Sgeo ponders loading his oversized MIDI collection onto the N1`
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01:44:04 <Sgeo> The Programming Contest problem I made: http://pastie.org/949412
01:46:14 <oerjan> while cat $somefilename | read -n 1 somechar; do
01:46:43 <oerjan> it feels unintuitive to me that that should actually give a different character on each iteration
01:46:57 <Sgeo> I didn't actually check it
01:47:31 <oerjan> maybe cat $somefilename | while read -n 1 somechar; do
01:48:27 <Sgeo> Let me send a message
01:49:48 <Sgeo> Sent, hopefully anyone having trouble reads it
01:50:17 <oerjan> you should still check it, i'm not an expert on shell programming
01:50:34 <Sgeo> sgeo@ubuntu:~$ echo "Hello" | while read -n 1 h; do echo -e $h; done
01:50:47 <Sgeo> And the other way just did an infinite loop
01:50:55 <Sgeo> Of nothingness
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04:19:38 <zzo38> See if you can figure out its purpose and if you can make a shorter one that is still only symbol (without alnum)?
04:20:08 <oerjan> i don't even know the language.
04:21:47 <zzo38> It is something on Anarchy Golf!
04:24:53 <oerjan> i don't really go there, i'm not so interested in golfing
04:26:17 <zzo38> Did you know my "Check for brainwave activity" problem? Well, I didn't win. I got it down to 12 bytes before post-mortem.
04:26:37 <Sgeo> zzo38, I remember it. Linky?
04:26:51 <zzo38> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Check+for+brainwave+activity
04:27:07 * Sgeo screams in faux horror at the .rb
04:28:08 <Sgeo> Pretending that I'm horrified at Ruby
04:28:17 <Sgeo> Also, it's just printing a string?
04:28:26 <Sgeo> And how does /*/g*/e*|tac work exactly?
04:28:50 <zzo38> It it dependent on the files on the computer. On other computers it might not work.
04:29:27 <zzo38> /*/g*/e* expands to /usr/games/espdiff but there is a blank line at the top of output, so tac command will fix that
04:31:25 <zzo38> What I didn't know is that an input would also do..... but now I learned
04:31:41 <Sgeo> What's espdiff?
04:32:55 <zzo38> I didn't actually know what it was either, at first. But I looked in the files and found that file on the Anarchy Golf server, so I figured it out.
04:33:18 <zzo38> It says it is a program to do whatever the user wants, but actually it just delays and then tells you there is no brainwave activity detected.
04:33:36 <zzo38> The deep scan mode just makes it delay longer.
04:33:48 <zzo38> It is a shell script, you can look it up easily in Anarchy Golf server
04:34:44 <zzo38> I don't know why someone wrote this program, but they did!
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04:38:30 <zzo38> I have a question about Linux: If you use dd to copy a DVD device file to a normal file, will the file be usable as a ISO file?
04:39:11 <pikhq> Though you may want to use ddrescue instead.
04:39:37 <pikhq> dd just craps out on errors. ddrescue goes crazy and gets the data off the disc anyways.
04:43:11 <zzo38> If you record a CD/DVD, can you put the name of the device file instead of the ISO file, will that work?
04:49:16 <zzo38> How difficult is it to program a window manager that you can push some key combinations to send signal to the currently program, such as wm-pagedown for SIGUSR1, wm-pageup for SIGUSR2, wm-end for SIGTERM, wm-pause for SIGSTOP, etc?
04:52:07 <zzo38> And wm-home would be for SIGHUP and wm-delete for SIGKILL.
04:56:12 <pikhq> I... Hmm. I suppose you *could* use the device file instead of an ISO file on disc.
04:56:33 <pikhq> And that window manager feature would be *pretty darned* hard to do.
04:56:46 <pikhq> You see, the window manager is not aware of PIDs.
04:58:07 <zzo38> Ah, OK. So that's why other window managers won't do that, it is because of not aware of PIDs. But how does it sent SIGWINCH signal correctly?
04:58:50 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGWINCH
04:58:52 <pikhq> Ah, that. The window manager doesn't.
04:59:11 <pikhq> The *terminal emulator* sends that signal.
04:59:28 <pikhq> And the terminal emulator does that in response to a resizing *message* from X11.
05:00:01 <zzo38> So that's how it works.
05:00:04 * Sgeo loves how Ruby has 10 million different ways to do almost, but not quite, the exact same thing, for each value of thing.
05:00:48 <zzo38> Ah, so that's how Ruby works.
05:05:56 <zzo38> How to messages work in X, is it like a event loop?
05:06:23 <pikhq> Yeah. It might... Actually be called an "event".
05:06:37 <pikhq> I only vaguely know the structure of X.
05:06:40 <pikhq> There be deep magic in there.
05:09:22 <zzo38> I saw something about _NET_WM_PID it says it is used for killing processes
05:11:01 <zzo38> It says it can use that to check the PID for the client owning this window
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13:51:12 <Tritonio_GR> i have some english language related questions and my native english speakers in MSN aren't logged in.
13:53:48 <Tritonio_GR> does "Bees have to survive. This translates to having complex social procedures" make any sense in english? Especially the "translates to" part, does it mean "means"? Or is it a bad translation from Greek?
14:05:08 <nooga> i think it's okay but i'm not a native speaker
14:09:03 <Tritonio_GR> really? and you are not Greek right? because that might be the reason this sounds good to you... ;-)
14:25:15 <pikhq> That looks... Weird.
14:35:33 <pikhq> "Bees have to survive. This translates to having complex social procedures."
14:35:55 <pikhq> I'd probably write that as something like "In order to survive, bees have complex social procedures."
14:46:13 <Tritonio_GR> yes i know. plus the sentence is completelly made up for the purpose of bringing up my point. anyway I found an american and asked him. i changed it to "involves"
14:47:35 <pikhq> Though, "translates to" is a perfectly valid English phrase, even used as "implies" or "means".
14:47:49 <pikhq> It just looks weird in this context.
14:48:36 <Tritonio_GR> ah ok then i'll keep it in mind. :-) don't mind the context.
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14:51:40 <Tritonio_GR> "The answer to this problem passes through RSS feeds and personalized micro sites."
14:54:10 <oerjan> erm, what does it mean?
14:54:28 <oerjan> it looks weird to _me_, but i'm a norwegian :)
14:54:40 <oerjan> right, i don't think that's reasonable
14:55:17 <Tritonio_GR> The problem is partially solved by RSS feeds etc... ???
14:57:02 <oerjan> yours is more direct, so probably better
14:59:28 * oerjan notes the mezzacotta comic is particularly gruesome today
15:00:10 * oerjan votes it fully baked, for the first time in months probably
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18:04:01 <P4> Which esoteric langue is the fastest in md5 generation? (http://crazy-tronners.com/P4/very/bad/md5-test?reset)
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19:18:28 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Japanese.svg This is an awful keyboard layout. *Awful*.
19:19:34 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that Japanese only needs some 15 keys to be input.
19:21:02 <pikhq> "kstnhmyrwaiueo" suffices.
19:21:55 <pikhq> No, wait, that's missing diacritics.
19:22:19 <pikhq> 2 keys for those, another for small-kanji. 18 keys, short punctuation.
19:26:55 <nooga> my frient has a laptop with such kbd
19:36:06 <SgeoN1> What are Chinese keyboards like?
19:39:13 <pikhq> Which Chinese script?
19:40:13 <pikhq> There's Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese, and (small niche) Cryllic.
19:41:10 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Chinese_Traditional.png Anyways. This is a common layout in Taiwan.
19:41:24 <pikhq> Note the 4 different supported input methods.
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19:43:32 <pikhq> Also: yes, keyboard layouts are not standardised in the Sinitic languages.
19:44:08 <pikhq> There's like 20 different input methods.
19:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, my client must have dropped out while you were talking.
19:44:37 <pikhq> Most of them based on trying to input the structure of the characters, a few of them based on pronounciation.
19:45:07 <pikhq> (pinyin and zhuyin for Mandarin, jyutping for Cantonese, pretty much structural only for *any* other Sinitic language)
19:46:06 <pikhq> (... With the exception of Dungan, which is written with Cyrillic.)
19:46:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The family of languages deriving from Old Chinese.
19:47:03 <pikhq> Or the common ancestor of Old Chinese and Bai, if one includes that language in the family as well.
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19:49:08 <pikhq> All of the Sinitic languages but Dungan and Bai are commonly written with a Chinese script. Bai can still be written with such a script, but Dungan cannot, do to the large number of Russian loan words in the language.
19:49:47 <pikhq> Also, if you buy the official line of the PROC, these are all dialects of the same language.
19:55:32 <pikhq> Language education is commonly terrible.
19:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Primarily because it's taught differently, and the curriculum is less boring.
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20:01:20 <pikhq> Not really. Latin is a fascinating language.
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20:01:37 <pikhq> Pity it's not used much as an actual language.
20:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: Indeed. And I can now grasp Perligata, so it's relevant to esolangs!
20:01:56 <pikhq> (rather than a source of neologisms or ancient-looking flair)
20:03:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I still say "praeterition" and get a warm, fuzzy feeling when people ask me what it means.
20:03:54 <pikhq> Quick, make harder neologisms!
20:04:26 <pikhq> Hayaku, tsukau harder shingoisms!
20:05:08 <pikhq> Mmm, English's acceptance of neologisms.
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20:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "Which party will best aid the profection of our nation?"
20:16:54 <SgeoN1> Well, it either needs a new
20:17:28 <SgeoN1> Power cord, or um... the hole for the power cord needs to be fixed somehow.
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20:30:56 <SgeoN1> There's no way to charge my computer via my phone, is there?
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20:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Your phone's battery will have much less capacity than your laptop's
20:34:50 <SgeoN1> I'd have my phone hooked up to the charger
20:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> You can charge phones from laptops because USB ports are *designed* to give power to small devices.
20:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo's laptop is broken, and he's running through all sorts of zany schemes to fix it.
20:38:10 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: my word you have quite the irish name dont you
20:38:37 <augur> /whois Phantom_Hoover
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20:41:53 <augur> /whois Phantom_Hoover
20:42:13 <augur> you cheeky bastard
20:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's m4ltest, which I used to test a theme ages ago and is now my other account on my computer.
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20:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, does anyone know of a Brainfuck interpreter in an HDL?
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21:39:23 <impomatic> A just received an Altera MAX dev board. Any ideas for a cool project?
21:39:49 <impomatic> It's a programmable logic device, 240 elements and 8 kilobits of memory.
21:41:47 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcpu.html
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22:03:03 <coppro> it's official. Yesterday, there was unusual trading activity.
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22:08:24 <nooga> like underload processor
22:08:44 <nooga> imperative is boring
22:09:01 <impomatic> Underload would be cool. I wonder if it's possible with only 240 elements
22:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> OISC is fun, but it's not very esoteric to implement it in hardware.
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22:31:41 <impomatic> I need to start with something easy though
22:32:30 <Slereah> Lazy K's about the smallest functional language there is.
22:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're not up to doing Lazy K, perhaps a hardware MARS?
22:41:53 <pikhq> Slereah: Lazy K is too not-minimal.
22:42:07 <pikhq> Namely, it has more than S and K.
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23:06:27 * Sgeo assassinates his computer
23:06:57 <coppro> are you playing Citadels or something?
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23:10:02 <Sgeo> It's Fri.. oh wait, alise has been here on Fridayness
23:11:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: don't joke about this, there are serious reasons why alise _could_ disappear.
23:11:31 <oerjan> which is why i am worried when e is not here.
23:11:57 <Sgeo> Wait, long-term non-weekendness is still a possibility?
23:12:26 <coppro> if e's sectioned, things are bad for everyone
23:12:47 <Sgeo> For some reason, I kind of figured that that was off the table
23:12:53 <oerjan> otoh we could hope he's just taking his advice to rest on fridays
23:13:42 <coppro> Sgeo: why would it be?
23:14:17 <Sgeo> coppro, because my mind just decided that hey, it's been a while since I thought about it, I'll just forget about it!
23:15:34 * coppro assassinates Sgeo's mind
23:16:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why everyone else always knows more about this than me.
23:17:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: some of it was only told in private channel
23:17:34 <oerjan> although it hasn't exactly been kept entirely out of #esoteric.
23:18:32 <coppro> short summary: alise faces the very real possibility of being put in a mental institution
23:18:44 -!- pikhq has set topic: Alise-alert | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:18:46 <Sgeo> coppro, he kind of is there, but only during the week
23:19:04 <coppro> yeah, but he's not formally institutionalized yet
23:19:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: He 'goes there voluntarily'. And it's a 'school'.
23:19:54 <oerjan> except, he only 'goes voluntarily' because they're threatening to make it non-voluntary otherwise.
23:22:47 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]).
23:23:12 <oerjan> he was gone for several weeks during the winter
23:23:38 <pikhq> We were worried then, too.
23:24:26 <oerjan> however there isn't any real reason to be worried _yet_ right now
23:25:24 <pikhq> Tomorrow, we get nervous. Sunday, we become worried. Monday, we start updating the Alise-missing-count.
23:25:34 <oerjan> next weekend, a lot more
23:25:36 <pikhq> Next Friday, we get Agora to declare war.
23:26:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: a nomic that several people here play in. also the world's oldest.
23:26:33 <pikhq> Yes, the Nomic of Agora.
23:27:27 * oerjan used to play, but doesn't any longer
23:31:21 <oerjan> <pikhq> Also, if you buy the official line of the PROC, these are all dialects of the same language.
23:32:02 <oerjan> which would be like if a nationalistic EU decided to declare english and german a dialect of the same language
23:32:29 <oerjan> perhaps even english and italian
23:33:00 <Sgeo> We're talking about Chinese?
23:33:15 <oerjan> PROC = people's republic of china
23:33:46 <Sgeo> For some reason, "PRC" seems more familiar
23:34:17 <oerjan> taiwan is always ROC though, i think
23:34:24 <pikhq> oerjan: Nah, "English and German".
23:35:10 <pikhq> The Sinitic languages are more akin to the Germanic languages in the level of relation than the Indoeuropean ones.
23:35:22 <oerjan> i wasn't sure about that
23:35:47 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: *Very* Germanic.
23:36:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: 1500 years ago or so they were the same language
23:36:37 <pikhq> oerjan: Bit more than that.
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23:37:02 <pikhq> Though I think 1500 years ago is about when mutual intelligibilty completely stopped.
23:37:05 <oerjan> pikhq: wasn't that about when the anglo-saxon invasion was?
23:37:49 <pikhq> oerjan: The various Germanic languages had already split off into a handful of related languages before they were actually *written*.
23:38:05 <oerjan> i though both english and german descended from saxon
23:38:19 <oerjan> i'm really vague on this though
23:38:56 <pikhq> Proto-Germanic split into East, West, and North Germanic.
23:39:10 <oerjan> yes, but both english and german are west
23:39:23 <pikhq> West Germanic itself split into South Germanic and Anglo-Frisian branches.
23:40:22 <oerjan> i may just be confused because Sachsen is a part of modern germany
23:40:47 <pikhq> And even back in Old English, English was freaking crazy about its foreign word acquisition.
23:41:43 <pikhq> Because of things like this, English has several cognates *with itself*.
23:42:40 <pikhq> For instance, "shirt" and "skirt" are both cognate.
23:42:52 <pikhq> "shirt" native to English, "skirt" borrowed from Old Norse.
23:43:16 <oerjan> skjorte and skjørt in norwegian :)
23:43:31 <pikhq> "Right", "rich", "raj", "regalia", "reign", "royal", and "real" are also all cognate.
23:43:52 <pikhq> (Germanic, Celtic, Sanskrit, Latin, French, French, Portuguese origin, respectively)
23:45:20 * oerjan recalls something about ei turning to oi in french, so those two may be from different periods?
23:45:48 <pikhq> English has done that sort of thing a lot.
23:46:02 <pikhq> "chef" and "chief" are both from the same word in French.
23:46:16 <oerjan> and french itself has done it with latin iirc
23:46:54 <pikhq> Also "warranty" and "guarantee".
23:46:55 <pikhq> English *loves* cognates.
23:49:38 <zzo38> In D&D game I want to have a "Merciful to Gibbering Mouthers" feat! I also want to have a metamagic feat that makes it the components are wasted as normal as if the spell has an effect but the normal effect of the spell is suppressed!
23:51:34 <pikhq> zzo38: That sounds like the most bizarre metamagic feat ever.
23:51:47 <pikhq> What, make it so you can fake-out casting a spell?
23:52:07 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I blame oerjan! <-- *MWAHAHAHA*
23:52:40 <pikhq> "Holy fuck he just cast wish. Holy fuck he just cast wish. Oh god what do I do what do I do what do I do"
23:52:40 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I suppose that's one use.
23:52:58 <zzo38> Perhaps other uses can be found, too?
23:53:07 <pikhq> Does it lower the spell level?
23:53:21 <zzo38> I didn't invent such a feat yet, but I suppose it could.
23:53:24 <oerjan> pikhq: i recall zzo38 plays _weird_ D&D. almost no fighting and a lot of trickery, i take.
23:53:45 <oerjan> so such deception would probably fit right in
23:53:45 <pikhq> oerjan: I play *creative* D&D.
23:53:54 <pikhq> We do fights, but in very hilarious ways.
23:54:05 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, you are right about that. My brother likes to fight more than I am, though. I prefer to not fight if I can avoid it.
23:54:14 <pikhq> Octopus on the face. :D
23:55:37 <pikhq> I'm also proud of having bowled a giant turtle into an army.
23:56:07 <Sgeo> No love for Paranoia?
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23:57:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: The computer would like to remind you that paranoia is a treasonable offense, and encourages your clone to be more paranoid about paranoia in the future.
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23:59:21 <zzo38> Once we did that my brother's character were attack everyone at the same time my character was heal the same guys that were being attacked in this way, and although this combination seem strange, actually this combination worked perfectly in the end. (I also broke the opponent's weapons while they were unconscious)
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00:20:07 <zzo38> It turns out who you thought was the main bad guy(s) is really a
00:20:11 <zzo38> double double agent.
00:39:10 <zzo38> What I want in D&D is "Break Into Debugger" spell.
00:47:46 <oerjan> zzo38: i would think wanting your D&D playing to resemble the programming you do everyday defeats the spirit of roleplaying in a horrendous way.
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01:15:38 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, then........
01:17:42 <zzo38> Now, (in the game) I need a tool for drawing large circles on the ground, and also a ring of anti-magic, and...
01:19:07 <zzo38> ...enough bonus to Diplomacy to use it to beholders.
01:33:36 <zzo38> This is going to require good timing. (And also zwischenzug. And "iron restraint".)
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01:42:53 * uorygl pulls out his Finnish and reviews.
01:45:31 * uorygl goes to Finnish Wikipedia to read about the koirat again.
01:50:20 <uorygl> Aww, what a cute word.
01:55:44 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/QR8ettwJ
01:58:58 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/GFwGcCnh
01:59:29 <uorygl> Aww, it was a valid command up there.
02:01:11 <zzo38> But in this situation it should be obvious why it is no longer valid?
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02:04:10 <uorygl> Well, now I have no idea what command to use next.
02:04:19 <uorygl> Besides, last time, L essentially gave a list of valid commands.
02:04:25 <uorygl> I would expect it to do the same here.
02:07:23 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/VyKq7ZEM
02:08:46 <uorygl> Well, how about P and I?
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02:10:10 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/KRDYh8pF
02:10:47 <uorygl> Looks like S2 is pretty much the only option.
02:11:14 <uorygl> `translate Koira on ihmisen kesyttämistä eläimistä vanhin.
02:11:17 <HackEgo> A dog is man's oldest domesticated animals.
02:11:55 <zzo38> Oops there is ' in there.
02:12:07 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/wVNrMenD
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02:14:44 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/Yq1K66yn
02:16:52 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/zFfBLLYY
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02:17:29 <uorygl> Next time, I'm using RAZOR LEAF and TACKLE.
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02:18:03 <uorygl> Now, what the heck was that?
02:18:47 <uorygl> Where were you getting this?
02:18:52 <zzo38> I just made it up.
02:19:01 <zzo38> It probably contains errors anyways.
02:19:09 <zzo38> It doesn't properly exist
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02:22:18 <fax> how can genetic code mutate? if you change one letter of a program it will break.. what about a genetic programming langauge that does not break if you change a tiny bit of it
02:23:04 <uorygl> Parts of ordinary computer programs are quite evolvable.
02:23:07 <Patashu> yeah, you need a programming language (and programming) that is highly redundant
02:23:18 <uorygl> Like the color scheme, the GUI, how often the garbage collector runs, choice of algorithms...
02:23:19 <Patashu> or you need mutations described syntactically not on the per letter word
02:23:48 <uorygl> If a garbage collector runs every 100 milliseconds, it's not going to break the program if that number is changed to 120.
02:23:51 <Sgeo> I think Creature brains were designed so that mutations don't become syntax errors
02:24:02 <Sgeo> uorygl, unless the program's time sensitive
02:24:08 <fax> Creature brains?
02:24:25 <fax> why does the topic say Alise-alert
02:24:34 <Sgeo> uorygl, wish to explain Creature brains?
02:24:49 <uorygl> I know very little about Creature brains.
02:25:01 <oerjan> fax: because it is weekend and e is not here
02:25:12 <uorygl> I know that they're neural nets.
02:25:20 <fax> was e supposed to come on this weekend?
02:25:45 <oerjan> fax: i think so. i didn't recall anything about _not_ coming.
02:26:15 <Sgeo> Creatures is a game [series] with Artificial Life
02:26:32 <Sgeo> The brains have lobes, containing neurons, and dendrites, connecting neurons
02:27:01 <Sgeo> The lobes and dendrites have SVRules, rules like "Get value from neuron" "Add 1 to accumulator"
02:27:11 <Sgeo> But at some level, it's easy to mutate, I think
02:27:27 <Sgeo> But in C3, they don't mutate, so it's a bit of a moot point
02:31:31 <uorygl> It would be fun to make a program that evolves bits of circuitry.
02:31:47 <Patashu> people do that in real life already
02:32:04 <Patashu> there's this special kind of circuit that has lots of circuits and randomly mutates its configuration
02:32:14 <Patashu> and it's used to create circuits to satisfy some requirement
02:32:24 <Patashu> and often it's not obvious how the created circuit actually does its job
02:32:29 <Patashu> (just like biological evolution!)
02:32:37 <fax> I want to write a program that evolves something
02:32:37 <uorygl> Is that called the Insane FPGA? :P
02:32:44 <uorygl> I think Tim Tyler wrote about something like that.
02:33:12 <uorygl> I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is.
02:35:29 <oerjan> well now you can't, because lament's not here!
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02:57:26 * oerjan crawls out from under rock
02:57:33 <oerjan> uorygl: you might try again now
02:57:59 <uorygl> I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is.
02:58:06 <uorygl> There, did I succeed in lamenting that time?
02:58:18 <oerjan> hopefully we'll soon find out
03:03:18 * uorygl ponders what to do next.
03:05:24 <oerjan> you could take up quilting
03:06:36 <uorygl> I think I'll suddenly decide that I do understand Plash after all, and thus write a wiki using it.
03:07:15 <oerjan> then you'll discover you were wrong, but only after making a completely hilarious site
03:08:21 * uorygl listens to John Powell's "This Is Berk".
03:08:42 <uorygl> I hope I'm spreading my tweets over sufficiently many IRC channels. :P
03:09:15 <uorygl> You were foiled by my listening to "This Is Berk"?
03:09:20 <oerjan> depends. how many have banned you so far?
03:09:32 <oerjan> yes. it is way outside my expertise.
03:09:53 <oerjan> then you are not trying hard enough.
03:10:35 * uorygl tries to SSH to zbasu.net.
03:11:30 * uorygl fails after trying four different usernames.
03:11:45 * oerjan googletects a lojban word
03:12:09 * uorygl resets its root password.
03:12:36 * uorygl moves his Chrome window so that he can see some of iTunes.
03:14:57 * oerjan talks about himself in the third person
03:14:57 * uorygl resets its non-root password and deletes its root password, then ensures that non-root has sudo access before exiting.
03:15:25 * uorygl does the same, but in a manner that makes it impossible to tell what set of pronouns is being used.
03:15:54 <uorygl> Let's see... I need apache.
03:16:30 * uorygl looks up who his DNS is run by.
03:17:48 * uorygl tries to remember why he didn't switch to Linode.
03:18:08 * uorygl wonders whether he ever got that refund for canceling within the first seven days.
03:18:14 <uorygl> Yes, that's how you spell "canceling".
03:19:02 <HackEgo> * canceled - Alternative spelling of cancelled; Alternative spelling of cancelled \ [22]en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canceled \ * To prevent further use of a printing plate after an edition has been printed, the artist sometimes "cancels" the plate by X-ing it out or in some other way defacing it. Sometimes cancellation
03:19:30 * uorygl finishes listening to Aleksi Aubry-Carlson's "Battle Music" and begins listening to Marc Russo's "Central Park Sunday".
03:19:43 <uorygl> As you can tell, I like listening to artists whose names are people's names.
03:20:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:20:23 <uorygl> I would listen to Modest Mouse, but unfortunately "Modest" isn't generally used as a first name.
03:20:23 <oerjan> I THINK THAT'S QUITE ENOUGH OF THAT
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03:21:08 <Sgeo> Wait, what did uorygl do?
03:21:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com.
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03:22:48 <uorygl> I feel so much better now that I've been kickbanned.
03:23:39 <oerjan> one of these days i'll get to use ops for something actually serious
03:23:59 <lament> uorygl: you mean you wouldn't listen to Modest Mussorgsky either?
03:26:11 <uorygl> Well, I might, now that you've asked.
03:26:36 <uorygl> Yeah, I'd listen to that guy, but probably not much.
03:26:56 <Sgeo> Would you listen to Eliezer?
03:27:07 <oerjan> i discovered on wikipedia yesterday there was actually an Alexandru Robot
03:27:12 <uorygl> Yes, I'd listen to an Eliezer.
03:27:29 <oerjan> alas, it was not his original name
03:27:59 <uorygl> Oh. Now I don't think I would listen to him.
03:28:51 <oerjan> well he was a poet not a musician
03:29:23 <uorygl> Nah, I think he was a musician.
03:29:45 <oerjan> are we talking about the same person
03:29:58 <uorygl> Not if I'm talking about a musician and you're talking about a non-musician poet.
03:30:20 <uorygl> Oh, you're talking about Alexandru Robot and I'm talking about Modest Muss . . . .
03:31:10 <oerjan> my plan to confuse you by not mentioning which lines i'm replying to has succeeded
03:31:22 <oerjan> took long enough though
03:31:55 <uorygl> If you really want to cause me sorrow, then refuse to teach me category theory.
03:32:20 <uorygl> So, is a colimit like a limit except that the functors of the cone all go to the same object rather than all coming from the same object?
03:32:36 <oerjan> all arrows are reversed yeah
03:33:20 <uorygl> Let me see if I can extend what I know of limits to colimits.
03:34:01 <oerjan> specifically, a colimit is a limit in the dual category
03:34:20 <uorygl> I guess it's pretty clear what the dual category is.
03:34:44 <uorygl> Do colimits involve covariant or contravariant functors?
03:35:48 <oerjan> i guess a contravariant functor is just a covariant functor with one of the categories dualized, so...
03:36:51 <oerjan> so if a limit in a dual category is a covariant functor, then the colimit is contravariant
03:37:30 <oerjan> *-dual, just confusing there
03:37:49 <uorygl> I guess for all this understanding of limits I have, I don't know which part of it "the limit" is. :P
03:38:16 <uorygl> Is it the cone? The cone's domain? The... I don't know what else it could be.
03:38:18 <oerjan> well i'm not much used to thinking of limits as functors really, although i _think_ i know how they are
03:38:49 <uorygl> I was under the impression that limits were *of* functors.
03:39:13 <oerjan> functors from a category of diagrams iirc
03:40:05 <uorygl> Here we go. "A limit of the diagram F : J -> C is a cone (L, φ) to F such that . . ."
03:40:26 <oerjan> the limit is probably itself a functor from the diagram to Hom(-, O) where O is the object we also call the limit
03:41:36 <oerjan> basically you need both the limit object and arrows from the original diagram's objects to it
03:41:57 <oerjan> hm perhaps a cone is this thing i mean
03:42:15 <fax> I don't understand this category theory stuff
03:42:28 <uorygl> fax: I didn't, either, but then somebody taught me, and then I did.
03:44:13 <oerjan> i don't know _that_ much category theory myself
03:44:33 <oerjan> just mostly learned what i needed to know
03:45:24 <oerjan> and things like limits weren't necessarily defined in the most abstract way possible, i don't really recall cones there
03:45:40 <uorygl> How much category theory did you need to know, and why did you need to know it?
03:45:47 <fax> there is not enough use of category theory to make it easy to learn
03:45:48 <Sgeo> "where she was released on her own recognizance."
03:45:55 <Sgeo> http://www.1010wins.com/Cops-Say-Teens-Planned-Attack-at-Connetquot-High/6997999
03:46:00 <fax> All the real uses of category theory are probably ridiculously advanced
03:46:06 <oerjan> well i did take homological algebra
03:46:11 <fax> so it is difficult to pick it up if you are a novice
03:46:18 <oerjan> and read a book on algebraic topology
03:46:42 <oerjan> and there were bits and pieces in other places probably
03:47:00 <uorygl> I still don't know any uses of category theory. :P
03:48:01 <oerjan> homological algebra is a main use of it, Saunders Maclane invented category theory for it i think
03:48:14 <uorygl> I mean, to learn what I know about category theory, I had to know what a set is, and what a function is. I think that's pretty much it.
03:49:58 <oerjan> algebra homomorphisms and linear transformations are important examples
03:50:16 <oerjan> (the latter is a special case of the former)
03:51:18 * uorygl suddenly realizes that he's tired.
03:51:44 <uorygl> Darn it, now how will I figure out what colimits look like?
03:52:19 <oerjan> it's like limits, except the colimit is on the other side :)
03:53:57 <uorygl> I suddenly feel like learning to draw would be a really good idea.
03:54:19 <uorygl> I'm good enough at visualizing abstract stuff; concrete stuff, not so much.
03:54:35 <oerjan> yeah category theory without diagrams is hopeless
03:55:04 <uorygl> I use mental diagrams.
03:55:10 <uorygl> They're more difficult but more powerful, too.
03:55:45 <oerjan> well the point is some proofs have more arrows than you can reasonably hold in your head
03:56:06 <uorygl> Then I will stare at them until I can hold them all in my head.
03:56:11 <uorygl> Unless there are, like, hundreds.
03:56:24 <uorygl> In which case I shall run away with my tail between my legs.
03:57:01 <oerjan> i have heard short-term memory only has room for about 7 items
03:57:39 <uorygl> That can be expanded with practice.
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10:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names?
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11:07:40 <alise> Mrrf unt rffp krrngk rrt, rrrr///FEEDBACK
11:07:53 <alise> That is, No. xkcd.
11:08:01 <alise> Alert officially de-classified.
11:08:44 <alise> 19:20:33 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com
11:08:45 <alise> 19:20:33 --- kick: uorygl was kicked by oerjan (uorygl)
11:10:26 <alise> 02:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names?
11:10:30 <alise> Because Wikipedia is tooootally hot
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11:13:57 <alise> 15:18:17 <nooga> I see Alise's school hours
11:17:17 <alise> 08:50:15 <pikhq> Yes. My thoughts were more along the lines of making punctuation just be a very, very short way of writing some sort of word or phrase that should be said in various places. For instance, "foo, bar, qux quuxy." would be read as "foo comma bar comma qux quuxy stop".
11:17:19 <alise> ' is pronounced h in lojban
11:18:18 <alise> 10:47:46 <fizzie> Not even erotic Core War fanfics? How strange.
11:18:22 <alise> It'd have to be vore!
11:19:01 <alise> "As eras1b2v3 slowly ate at every single bit of standstill, it moaned by copying a few bits after it in the tape and wriggling along... but eras1b2v3 was too fast for it, and soon it was completely consumed."
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11:25:55 <alise> 20:39:37 <pikhq> dd just craps out on errors. ddrescue goes crazy and gets the data off the disc anyways.
11:25:57 <alise> reminds me of cdparanoia
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11:26:54 <alise> 16:18:10 <Oranjer> Malcolm Gladwell has some theories in his book Outliers, nooga
11:26:56 <alise> i have a theory that malcom gladwell is a charlatan
11:27:01 <alise> but i need 10,000 hours to confirm it...
11:28:18 <alise> 16:50:50 <nooga> ah, there's nothing better than setting your alarm clock in cron
11:28:22 <alise> apart from not setting your alarm clock at all
11:32:31 <alise> being called honey is possibly the biggest motivation so far to change my nick back :D
11:33:15 <alise> oh so I can't escape no matter what i do :D
11:33:56 <alise> So, UK election results: All the votes have been counted, and we still don't know who's won.
11:34:04 <alise> In fact nobody's won. State of complete anarchy. Have fun.
11:34:11 <alise> (I gather this is how it works.)
11:34:35 <pineapple> alise: as i posted on facebook, perhaps a better question to ask is "who lost?"
11:34:53 <pineapple> (no idea why i did that highlight there)
11:35:02 <pineapple> well... i was thinking "everyone", but yes
11:35:29 <alise> I like how everybody was so excited about the Lib Dems that they forgot to vote for them entirely.
11:35:44 <alise> Well, they can't win anyway, right? Neither can the Conservatives :P
11:36:08 <pineapple> you did notice that they had a higher popular vote, and a higher popular vote %age than in 2005, yes?
11:36:50 <pineapple> but admittedly, yes, i think that a lot of the people who wanted to vote lib dem ended up not doing so, because of tactical voting
11:36:53 <alise> Yes, but it's still nowhere near what everyone was raving about.
11:37:03 <alise> Some good that tactical voting did :-)
11:37:12 <pineapple> lib dem support dropped between debate 1 and debate 3
11:38:03 <alise> at least we've finally got a nice American Presidential election system
11:38:14 <pineapple> alise: i had something shived through my door wednesday evening saying "in 71 constituencies (yours is one of them), the best way to keep the tories out is to vote labour"
11:38:37 <alise> Well, it kept everybody out!
11:38:40 <alise> Which might actually be an improvement...
11:39:29 <pineapple> and that + similar pushes from the tories ("vote clegg, get brown") meant that those who wanted to vote lib dem switched to keep $CHOSEN_ENEMY out
11:40:16 <pineapple> my mother did very strongly consider voting labour to stop the tories here
11:40:18 <alise> These people are tarnishing the good name of rational tactical voting :P
11:40:37 <alise> If I was Russell O'Connor, I would be advocating stochastic elections.
11:40:38 <pineapple> i think that kinda backfired though
11:40:50 <pineapple> labour came 3rd here (Bristol North West)
11:40:54 <alise> (where tactical voting becomes "honest" voting)
11:41:24 <alise> "The stocastic voting system is the only voting system that gives proportional representation, local representatives, and where stratigic voting is never advantageous."
11:41:25 <pineapple> and i do wonder if, had there not been such a late push from labour, the lib dems would've taken it
11:41:59 <pineapple> what sort of voting system i would like to see has been on my mind the last couple of days
11:42:15 <pineapple> on the one hand, people voted for national reasons
11:42:22 <pineapple> but on the other, some people voted for local reasons
11:42:53 <alise> Stochastic election system:
11:42:56 <alise> [[I propose the following election system for Canada. In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat.
11:42:57 <alise> Random number generation can be done by having every candidate select a number between 1 and n (the number of votes cast). The selected numbers are summed modulo n, and the result is used to select the winner.
11:42:57 <alise> And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years.]]
11:42:57 <pineapple> one of my friends voted conservative over lib dem because of local issues
11:43:06 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html
11:43:06 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html
11:43:09 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html
11:43:16 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html
11:43:29 <alise> pineapple: no, I don't think you understand; he is serious
11:43:52 <pineapple> so... FPTP but, in each constituency, the %age vote is the chance that the candidate wins that seat?
11:44:04 <alise> Actually statistically it is perfectly benign and actually gives really good properties such that voting as you really want is the best possible strategy and such, but most people are probably too scared of "randomness" to like it
11:44:38 <pineapple> i can see many people hating that idea with a passion
11:44:51 <alise> [[This is only one example of the results of a stochastic election. Because of the stochastic nature of the election process, actual results may differ.
11:44:52 <alise> In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2006 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]]
11:45:01 <alise> pineapple: Yes; most people do not really understand randomness.
11:45:08 <pineapple> "why the fuck would i want the prime minister to be decided by a dice roll???"
11:45:17 <alise> O'Connor's radical but he's always interesting.
11:45:23 <alise> Now if only he posted to his blog more.
11:45:41 <alise> just pull the prime minister out of a hat
11:45:42 <pineapple> this would be like rolling 650 imprefect dice
11:45:45 <alise> (not his name; the prime minister himself)
11:45:58 <alise> it would have to be a very big hat.
11:46:03 <alise> but that's the price we have to pay for democracy
11:46:19 <pineapple> and you say that this is used in Canada?
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11:46:44 <alise> [[In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2008 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]]
11:46:49 <alise> it's just that Russell O'Connor is Canadian
11:46:53 <alise> so obviously he proposes this for Canada
11:47:19 <alise> and he simulates the results as if things were stochastic. Although of course his results are not accurate, because it will use tactical votes, which would happen less in a stochastic system (only idiots would do them because they would not help at all)
11:47:34 <alise> pineapple: He's also an anarchist; I'm not sure how those two things gel together but there you go.
11:47:40 <alise> Let's elect our no government.
11:47:43 <pineapple> you know the one thing this would do if applied here?
11:48:01 <alise> It would backfire horribly as most people wouldn't believe that tactical votes wouldn't work :-D
11:48:10 <alise> Perhaps we'd get the entire in a few hundred years.
11:48:14 <pineapple> not the Speaker of the house (see results for Buckingham)
11:48:41 <alise> NOT EVEN THE CITIZENS
11:49:06 <alise> We are writing to inform you that you have not been elected in the recent stochastic citizen elections.
11:49:23 <pineapple> i so hope that someone does a simulation based on our election results
11:49:42 <alise> pineapple: Ask him to :P he already has the code, and Canada shares our system
11:49:45 <alise> r.oconnor@cs.ru.nl
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11:58:34 <alise> Ghostly vacuum cleaner!
11:59:32 <alise> Why did you replace your wiki user page with Gone? ;|
11:59:37 <alise> WERE YOU RUNNING AWAY FROM ME
11:59:40 <alise> You cannot deny it.
12:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I was reading the stuff that you said why I was gone.
12:05:34 <alise> You were gone for an entire day :P
12:05:34 <alise> Also, I have more like three or four...
12:06:53 <alise> I'm a darned whippersnapper.
12:07:21 <alise> Anyway I just forget my passwords, or start disliking the names, usually.
12:07:22 <alise> I think I made the first account when I was 12 or 13.
12:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the wiki *really* needs basic stuff like account creation logs.
12:08:40 <alise> It's done us well since 2005; if we were to change the software, I'd say we should even move off MediaWiki to something simpler.
12:08:42 <alise> Considering we use perhaps 30% of its features.
12:11:25 <pineapple> Phantom_Hoover: newer versions of mediawiki log account creation
12:11:25 <pineapple> (which has been the current stable version for a while)
12:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> You can get it on older versions, it just doesn't come by default.
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12:15:16 <alise> When two servers in the network lose their connection to each other.
12:15:32 <alise> That's just to make it work with the syntax of IRC.
12:15:39 <alise> It used to be (server1 server2).
12:15:42 <alise> I guess they are masking that now.
12:15:47 <alise> In case you don't know: Everyone on IRC is connected to one server in a network.
12:15:50 <alise> These are all connected together.
12:15:59 <alise> When you send a message, it propagates through all the servers, eventually reaching everyone.
12:16:07 <alise> When two servers lose their connection to each other, messages can obviously not pass between them.
12:16:21 <alise> So the people who your messages reach via the two servers disconnect from your end.
12:16:26 <alise> From their end, all of us will have disconnected.
12:16:35 <alise> So we're on the better side of the split; they only have three people, we have everyone else.
12:16:44 <alise> They should reconnect soon once the split is over.
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12:29:26 <pineapple> Phantom_Hoover: the traditional netsplit message shows which servers have split
12:29:49 <pineapple> many networks these days hide which servers have split off in one way or another
12:30:02 <pineapple> freenode does this as of ircd-seven
12:34:40 <alise> Is it a trade secret?
12:36:07 <alise> Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
12:36:24 <pineapple> it can give away information about the network topology
12:36:39 <pineapple> which can be used by people to attack the network
12:37:15 <Phantom_Hoover> And you really *don't* want to know what the network topology is.
12:40:41 <alise> 07:25:37 <ais523> here's a nice mnemonic: -a looks at the entities, -e looks at the architectures
12:45:22 * alise comes up with a ridiculous idea.
12:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> If it involves the Freenode network topology, just stop.
12:47:05 <alise> 08:06:20 <AnMaster> and what do we learn from this? I think one of the things may be "free market is yet again proved not to work"
12:47:10 <alise> I don't think the FPGA situation is /anywhere near/ a free market.
12:47:38 <alise> (It involves bunnies, tries, and rape-murder.)
12:47:46 <alise> I didn't mean to write tries. But it involves tries too.
12:48:01 <alise> The end result is, surprisingly enough, custard.
12:49:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Whatever you do, don't try to use it to find out the Freenode network topology.
12:52:57 <alise> 10:10:27 <AnMaster> any linux tools for verilog btw?
12:52:57 <alise> 10:11:08 <ais523> no free ones that I know of
12:53:57 <alise> 10:58:18 <coppro> apparently GSOC gave me a free membership in ACM for a year
12:54:07 <alise> download EVERYTHING
12:54:56 <Phantom_Hoover> But make sure you don't use anything that tells you the Freenode network topology.
12:55:37 <alise> 11:26:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So, are there any decent free CASs?
12:55:38 <alise> 11:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I've tried Maxima, but I was wondering.
12:55:38 <alise> 11:26:51 <pikhq> Maxima's pretty much it.
12:55:43 <alise> and some misc ones like sage
12:55:47 <alise> pirate mathematica, or w/e
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13:37:06 <alise> `sh /usr/bin/ping 2>&1
13:37:09 <alise> `sh /bin/ping 2>&1
13:37:17 <alise> `sh /bin/ping sex.com
13:37:56 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.14674/bin/ping
13:38:08 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less
13:38:23 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug
13:43:31 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping
13:43:52 <pineapple> `/tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping esolangs.org
13:44:12 <pineapple> `ls -l /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping
13:44:28 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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13:48:40 <HackEgo> 12:48:15 up 69 days, 7:23, 0 users, load average: 0.17, 0.11, 0.03 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT
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13:50:10 <alise> Of most unacceptable Geoff'ry;
13:50:51 <Phantom_Hoover> What commands let you write directly to files from the command line?
13:51:11 <alise> `sh echo FUCK >fuckness
13:51:21 <alise> I think it has to be somewhere special to persist.
13:51:23 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.15837 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
13:52:20 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
13:52:33 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ WA='http://www24.wolframalpha.com' \ \ dowget() { \ wget -U "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.0.11) Gecko/2009060214 Firefox/3.0.11" "$@" \ return "$?" \ } \ \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr "
13:53:14 <alise> `wolfram solve 1/x = x-1
13:53:22 <alise> It is not really such a good interface.
13:53:26 <alise> And why isn't it working?
13:54:10 <alise> A shit is not given.
13:54:38 <alise> Alpha fails at that, heh.
13:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but it explains why they wouldn't be too concerned with making it possible for a script to use it.
13:54:59 <alise> `wolfram solve x = 1 + (1/x)
13:55:16 <alise> `wolfram solve x^2 = 2
13:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Like I said, the script doesn't work with Alpha at all.
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13:59:18 <HackEgo> Lazy K, designed by [6]Ben Rudiak-Gould, is a [7]Turing tarpit based on [8]combinatory logic. It is lazily evaluated and purely functional. \ \ Contents \ \ * [9]1 History \ * [10]2 Instructions \ * [11]3 Input and output \ * [12]4 Lazier \ * [13]5 Hello world \ * [14]6 See also
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14:08:33 <alise> phi = -2 sin(666 degrees)
14:08:37 <alise> It is the devil's ratio.
14:09:45 <HackEgo> (-2) * sin(666) = 0.0352832916
14:09:45 <alise> `calc -2 * sin(666 * 180/pi)
14:09:45 <HackEgo> (-2) * sin((666 * 180) / pi) = -1.86752473
14:09:50 <alise> `calc -2 * sin(666 * pi/180)
14:09:51 <HackEgo> (-2) * sin((666 * pi) / 180) = 1.61803399
14:12:40 <alise> Well, then why did you do that calculation?
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14:17:23 <Patashu> equivalent to sin(3/10 radians) = (1+sqrt(5)/4
14:17:52 <Patashu> indicating it's radians instead of degrees
14:17:55 <alise> perhaps you meant sin_rad(3/10) to distinguish the two functions :P
14:18:15 <alise> I guess if you take sin = sin_deg usually it makes sense and radians = 180/pi
14:18:19 <alise> but I don't think anybody does that...
14:20:07 <alise> grr... we really need a mathematica bot in here, it would be nice.
14:32:08 <Patashu> you can always go with a 'wolfram alpha' bot
14:33:29 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Someone would need to buy or pirate it.
14:33:35 <alise> freenode would not give a shit
14:33:37 <alise> it's our client, our responsibility
14:33:46 <alise> and i already have it pirated anyway... although not on this machine
14:34:04 <alise> I'd get it on this machine but I'm on 3G internet and it's ~4GB
14:34:11 <alise> more like 600mb downloading
14:34:16 <alise> (since it decompresses and downloads stuff)
14:34:22 <alise> actually it's more like 1gb
14:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So Freenode aren't responsible if someone makes an open interface to Mathematica?
14:35:16 <alise> also that's the os x version
14:35:21 <alise> i don't think their os x version is their most optimised...
14:35:40 <alise> and i think i cached parts of wolfram's data repositories
14:35:41 <alise> Patashu: remember that mathematica is /the/ biggest ball of mud ever conceived of
14:37:30 * alise considers getting the non-3g connection to work
14:39:07 <alise> Mathematica isn't all that hot, really, but it's more reliable than Alpha and has more stuff.
14:39:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, by far.
14:39:35 <alise> Maple is also a good pay CAS.
14:39:44 <alise> brb to set up my net
14:41:31 <fizzie> alise: As for why I didn't do a Mathemabot; our campus licenses are from a limited, shared pool that manages to be sometimes empty; they wouldn't probably be very happy if were to tie one of them to a IRC-bot. Not to mention it might not be quite according to the license terms.
14:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely Wolfram don't want you giving access to Mathematica from a public channel?
14:42:26 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds possible.
14:43:05 <Patashu> but would it be permissible if, say
14:43:10 <Patashu> I asked you to do a calculation on mathematica for me?
14:43:36 <fizzie> The student license of Mathematica is pretty reasonably priced, anyhow. It's just that you're supposed to upgrade it to real license (with a nice discount) when studies end.
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15:04:54 <alise> ``O LORDY ON HIGH--
15:05:25 <alise> Connection is not working.
15:05:31 <alise> Download 600mb via 3G, I think not.
15:07:06 <alise> The GUI on Linux is very, very bad and laggy.
15:07:56 <alise> Yes; but you lose a lot of the shiny-pretties that are partly the reason to use Mathematica, and also it's harder to read the output.
15:08:02 <alise> Mathematical notation is not very well textised.
15:09:16 <alise> Maybe consider Maple? I haven't used it but it doesn't seem too bad.
15:10:06 <alise> The website is significantly more cheesy though.
15:11:42 <alise> The nice things about Mathematica over Alpha are (a) more supported functions and the like, (b) far less ambiguous syntax, and (c) you can create definitions and use them later.
15:11:50 <alise> Which allows a far wider exploration of theoretical stuffs.
15:19:28 <alise> Actually you can do it however you want.
15:19:37 <alise> Mathematica is a symbolic language; it's just tree-writing, so everything is inspectable.
15:19:40 <alise> Sort of like quoting /everything/ in Lisp.
15:25:05 <alise> Sure... but that's really easy.
15:25:29 <alise> I mean, in Mathematica, you do derivatives with e.g. D[x^2, x].
15:25:29 <alise> D is just a normal function -- well, a built-in, but still --
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15:25:43 <alise> and it takes "symbolic" arguments like that.
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15:42:30 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
15:42:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu 9.04(!) atm.
15:42:39 <HackEgo> To be considered successful, a woman must be much better at her job \ than a man would have to be. Fortunately, this isn't difficult.
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15:42:47 <HackEgo> This must be morning. I never could get the hang of mornings.
15:42:50 <HackEgo> Paul's Law: \In America, it's not how much an item costs, it's how much you save.
15:42:54 <HackEgo> A good reputation is more valuable than money. \-- Publilius Syrus
15:43:29 <HackEgo> Befunge is a two-dimensional [6]esoteric programming language invented in 1993 by [7]Chris Pressey with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. \ \ Contents \ \ * [8]1 History \ * [9]2 Etymology \ * [10]3 Language overview \ * [11]4 Instructions \ * [12]5 Computational
15:47:25 <AnMaster> tex + exec ends up as a very strange-looking word: texexec
15:47:41 <AnMaster> (and yes, that exists in /usr/bin for me)
15:58:31 <alise> XXX hot barely legal TeX implementations.
16:11:38 <Rugxulo> "This is a LOLCODE interpreter I wrote as a project for my Computer Programming class." ... wow, somebody used it in school ^_^
16:11:46 <Rugxulo> http://www.assembla.com/code/iqpk/subversion/nodes/islip
16:12:42 <alise> also the proper way to address an MP is (this was asked a while ago iirc)
16:12:54 <alise> The Right Honourable First Last MP
16:13:09 <alise> The Rt. Hon. First Last MP for short should do.
16:14:22 <Rugxulo> so I presume "Yo, bonesmoker!" ain't kosher? ;-)
16:15:06 <Rugxulo> " 'Ey, Smeghead, so how it's goin', parlamentin' 'n stuff?"
16:16:51 <alise> I guess if you really wanted to be formal in a way nobody else is, you would say
16:17:02 <alise> The Right Honourable Nick Clegg, Member of Parliament
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16:19:22 <Rugxulo> The Right Honourable Oer Jan, Member of Esotericment
16:19:35 <alise> *rjan Johansomething
16:19:42 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names?
16:19:55 <alise> my name-memorising & norwegtongue-spelling is not so good.
16:20:08 <alise> I can never spell Norwegian. I always type Norweigan.
16:20:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's because of masked hostnames
16:20:32 <alise> somebody's in #wikipedia, asks an ircop "hey MASK ME" and voila wikipedia/
16:20:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: those are "cloaks" i believe, you can register one if you don't want people to see your IP.
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16:21:46 <oerjan> alise: you almost had it correct. just remember that it's -sen in norwegian and danish, but -son in swedish. mostly.
16:22:28 <alise> and it's pronounced yohan yohansen, I hope
16:22:32 <oerjan> sometimes -sson in swedish, but never -ssen in the others
16:22:33 <alise> I know your first name is vaguely pronounced yohan
16:22:38 <alise> I just hope that Johan is pronounced ~yohan too
16:22:54 <oerjan> yes it is, but they are not pronounced the same ;D
16:23:24 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Johansson
16:23:42 <oerjan> there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan.
16:24:17 <alise> mind if I call you double-Y for long?
16:24:23 <alise> Hey, double y, how's it hanginnnnnnnnn
16:24:42 <oerjan> my first name does _not_ start with y, dammit.
16:25:01 <oerjan> although incidentally there is a lot of dialect variation between y and ø in norwegian
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16:25:04 <AnMaster> <alise> Teh sex, eck. <-- not what I meant XD
16:25:21 <alise> oerjan: fine then, double-
16:25:45 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Johansson
16:25:59 <alise> so if you appeared in an episode of the Simpsons, oerjan, as a new member of the Simpsons family, you'd be .J. Simpson
16:26:03 <Rugxulo> "American-born Canadian actor" ... sounds weird
16:26:03 <AnMaster> <oerjan> there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan. <-- is that common?
16:26:14 <alise> AnMaster: obviously not, or it wouldn't be notable
16:26:20 <oerjan> yep, Yrjan is an actual norwegian name. very rare though, only 40 persons or so http://www.norskenavn.no/navn.php?id=2491
16:27:17 <oerjan> also, you will sometimes find people defying the -sen/-son distinction by actually descending from the other country, naturally
16:27:34 <AnMaster> hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language.
16:27:53 <AnMaster> (that doesn't mean there doesn't exist other ones)
16:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir".
16:28:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, isn't it pronounced mostly like ö?
16:29:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw, which English accents are non-rhotic?
16:29:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: Yohan is so rare that that website doesn't have it. "Grunnen er at det er 3 eller færre som har dette som første fornavn i Norge, og disse er derfor ikke tatt med i navnelistene som er mottatt fra Statistisk sentralbyrå av personvernhensyn."
16:30:12 <oerjan> i.e. it's so rare it would be a privacy violation to include it.
16:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Most of England, I think Wales, Australia and NZ.
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16:30:44 <Rugxulo> no rarer than Dromhall (or whatever it was) ;-)
16:30:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, most except US then?
16:30:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: yngvar, yngve, those aren't swedish names?
16:30:59 <Rugxulo> yngwie, yes ... famous guitarist
16:31:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is ingvar and ungve
16:32:10 <oerjan> oh. it exists in norwegian. Yngvar Numme is a comedian.
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16:32:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, as for the one I originally thought of, googling indicates it is French in origin
16:32:23 <oerjan> also Ingvar and Ingvard (my father's name)
16:32:41 <AnMaster> (it was "Yvonne", which is not very common, but neither very rare)
16:32:48 <alise> shouldn't you be rjan Ingvardsen then :D
16:33:16 <oerjan> oh yvonne yeah that's probably french
16:33:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yvonne was the one I thought of originally when I said: <AnMaster> hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language.
16:33:30 <Rugxulo> yes, Yvonne is french, same as Yves
16:33:44 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is not completely uncommon in Sweden though
16:34:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, yngve sounds archaic to me
16:34:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well, who knows what language that comes from
16:34:49 <alise> I wish Mathematica was... small.
16:35:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: chances are yohan will pick up now though, with the movie
16:35:03 <Rugxulo> Yvette, another French name
16:35:18 <alise> You cannot easily pirate some hundreds of megabytes on a 3G connection.
16:35:24 <AnMaster> alise, in memory usage while running or?
16:35:44 <AnMaster> alise, but didn't you have it before too?
16:35:47 <oerjan> alise: norwegian -sen names aren't patronymicons any longer, only the icelandic do that afaik
16:35:55 <alise> AnMaster: on another machine, alas.
16:36:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: "Yohan Barnevandreren" is a new norwegian movie this year. i haven't seen it.
16:36:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: surnames based on father's first name
16:36:47 <oerjan> as -sen and -son originally were
16:36:55 <AnMaster> that raises another question: how the hell can that concept be named "patronymicons"
16:37:13 <AnMaster> "patronymicons" is a really strange thing for, well, anything at all
16:37:23 <oerjan> la:pater = father, gr:onyma = name
16:37:33 <oerjan> possible gr:pater = father too
16:37:46 <alise> yeah patriarchy ~~ patro
16:38:08 <AnMaster> okay so the "pateronym" bit makes sense, the "icons" bit does not
16:38:16 <oerjan> -icon = -ic-on where -ic is like in electric and -on is the neuter nominative ending in greek
16:38:17 <alise> ic ~~ as in "epic"
16:38:20 <Rugxulo> forget "icons", that's a bogus ending anyways
16:38:29 <alise> ons ~~ set, collection, sort of thing?
16:38:33 <alise> That's a really bad description, but
16:38:37 <alise> it doesn't require any knowledge of latin or greek :P
16:38:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, does -ic in electric have some special meaning?
16:38:50 <alise> -satisfying-property
16:38:51 <Rugxulo> I never learned (ancient) Greek, but I think "on" is normal subject ending and "os" is plural (or such)
16:38:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's just a greek way to turn a noun into an adjective
16:38:58 <alise> if a name is patronymic
16:39:06 <alise> if a thing is patronymic
16:39:10 <alise> it is a name that descends from fathers
16:39:16 <Rugxulo> pyrrhic, classic, technique, etc.
16:39:19 <alise> ons -- the set of all things that are patronymic
16:39:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, so electricity is noun -> adjective -> noun?
16:39:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: like -lig in no/sw
16:39:49 <Rugxulo> television -> Greek-based word
16:39:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah greek electric + lating -itas
16:39:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh? removing -lig from the first three words with that ending that I thought of returned nonsense
16:40:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: barnlig for example?
16:40:51 <AnMaster> that gives nonsene if you remove the "-lig"
16:41:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: well swedish may have mangled things historically, like every other language
16:41:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, also barnlig must be Norwegian only? Is it perhaps the same as sv:barnslig
16:41:19 <oerjan> isn't that guld + -lig or something?
16:41:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually it's barnslig in norwegian too
16:41:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: sounds like it could come from gul[dl]
16:42:19 <oerjan> except barnlig is sometimes used as a more positive version i think
16:42:43 <oerjan> barnslig has the connotation of immature, while barnlig is more child-like
16:42:53 <oerjan> different connotations
16:43:08 <AnMaster> and barnlig doesn't exist in Swedish
16:43:10 <oerjan> i don't think barnlig is so common though
16:43:18 <AnMaster> but yes barnslig means immature
16:43:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw how would you translate förnurlig to English?
16:44:05 <alise> Argh, why are big-operator notations so hard to translate into ASCII?
16:44:30 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you know, to someone who actually know a language where that letter exists and read it like it is supposed to be pronounced, that ends up very strange.
16:44:43 <alise> I guess I quite like "∑(k=m, n) x" for $\sum_{k=m}^n x$.
16:44:55 <Rugxulo> no stranger than some other esoteric languages lk
16:45:19 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but try reading that aloud as it should be pronounced :P
16:45:34 <Rugxulo> for me, it's all pronounced the same ;-)
16:45:45 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, didn't wikipedia tell you how
16:45:53 <AnMaster> you said something like something in some accents
16:46:11 <oerjan> alise: -on in greek has nothing with sets to do, it's just a case/gender ending.
16:46:15 <AnMaster> that was <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir".
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16:46:43 * Rugxulo still can't understand how to pronounce Ejdffakasdkjfasdfalkv
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16:47:32 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and I have no clue either
16:47:39 <AnMaster> Islandic is rather.... special
16:47:40 <Rugxulo> sorry, can't be bothered to memorize the spelling of such an insane name
16:47:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw gr:electron = amber (also i'm responding to old messages i know)
16:47:51 <alise> it's pronounced Ey ya falla joke ull, obviously!
16:47:53 <alise> AnMaster: *Icelandic
16:48:08 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Eyjafjallaj%C3%B6kull-bjarmason.ogg
16:48:21 <Rugxulo> the .ogg on Wikipedia seemed to ignore the last "ull" part
16:48:31 <AnMaster> alise, sorry, en:iceland = sv:island, en:island = sv:ö
16:48:40 <Rugxulo> "ehv-ja-jalv-kvik" (if I remember correctly, which isn't likely)
16:48:43 <AnMaster> alise, this causes some confusion sometimes
16:49:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, part of that volcano name makes sense for me, I can roughly split it as a concatenation of at least three parts.
16:49:22 <Deewiant> The only "hard" part about pronouncing that is knowing that ll in Icelandic is [tl]
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16:49:31 <alise> How often do you guys need to talk about islands?
16:49:39 <Deewiant> And that j is [j] I suppose, if you're English
16:49:59 <oerjan> we likes our geography short, you see
16:50:26 <AnMaster> alise, no, it is a verb meaning something I don't know the English word for
16:50:34 <oerjan> i think that would be öar or something. øyer in norwegian.
16:50:37 <AnMaster> if you get water *inside* a boat, you need to use that verb
16:51:21 <Rugxulo> oar as in boat stick thingy?
16:51:30 <AnMaster> btw about that volcano Eyja-fjalla-jökull I think. the middle part looks similar to Swedish "fjäll", which is not the same as a mountain (sv:berg) but I think it translates to en:mountain anyway
16:51:36 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: The ¨ matters, you know :-P
16:51:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is to move the water out of the boat
16:51:40 <oerjan> alise: the surprising thing about eyjafjallajökull pronunciation (for a norwegian) is that the ll's are more like dl
16:51:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not by a pump, but by hand
16:52:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah. Then the English phrase "bail out" makes no sense
16:52:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also you can ösa without a boat being involved. Say, to fill a bucket or whatever.,
16:52:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Words can have more than one meaning (and phrases moreso)
16:53:26 <Rugxulo> deewiant, wind != wind, bow != bow
16:53:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes quite, I was just too lazy to fix the sed line
16:54:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the first part? eyja?
16:54:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can't figure out how to pronounce yj
16:55:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: well from the clips i've heard, it sounds like they're just prolonging the e and then passing to j
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16:55:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah that was much more helpful than what Phantom_Hoover and Deewiant said.
16:56:15 <AnMaster> (because I suck at IPA and also couldn't figure out what the heck ""y"-voiced "sh"" was)
16:56:34 <Deewiant> Voiced-"sh" presumably meant the English j sound
16:57:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw that thing about ll, does that apply to both the first and the second ll?
16:57:28 <Rugxulo> rot13 (probably easier to pronounce, heh): rlwnswnyynwbxhyy
16:57:30 <oerjan> also the last -ll makes sense when you know it's unvoiced so the actual l part is almost inaudible. or so i read.
16:57:32 <Deewiant> I'll just paste the IPA from Wikipedia so we can stop guessing: [ˈɛɪjaˌfjatlaˌjœkʏtl]
16:58:01 <AnMaster> but a Dane could most likely manage it
16:58:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, it applies to all ll's in Icelandic
16:58:29 <Rugxulo> eyjafjallajokull ??? "I, ya, fall a joke all" ???
16:58:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and do you find eyjafjallajökull easy to pronounce?
16:58:39 <Rugxulo> the joke's on us, it's not real, we've been had!
16:59:16 <oerjan> Rugxulo: everyone knows it's just a giant insurance scam to get away from all that debt
16:59:43 <Rugxulo> you can't trust a language without "c" or "z" ;-)
17:00:05 <AnMaster> btw it doesn't make much sense to me that the Icelandic people should have to pay that. Shouldn't it really be that bank that had to pay it
17:00:06 <oerjan> poles are so trustable
17:00:07 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: "eyafyatlayocutel" would be my initial attempt at Englishification
17:00:41 <alise> Eyjafjallajkull is really just a plot by the Icelandic people to avoid paying anything.
17:00:53 <alise> They will pepper all the discussions about paying it back with that word, so as to avoid anyone pronouncing it.
17:00:56 <alise> Thus, discussions will collapse.
17:00:56 <pikhq> Voiced consonants are probably *really* easy to grasp for Japanese speakers...
17:01:17 <pikhq> "sh" and "j", for instance, are differentiated in their writing system by a voicing mark.
17:01:29 <AnMaster> alise, oh btw how did the UK election work out? Saw something in the paper today about no singly party being able to rule alone.
17:01:36 <pikhq> ゛<- Stick that on a kana, and now it's voiced!
17:02:05 <alise> AnMaster: Yes; the Conservatives got more seats than anyone else, but not enough to form a government.
17:02:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's hungtastic.
17:02:16 <alise> So both the Tories (Conservatives) and Labour are scrambling to make a deal with the Liberal Democrats.
17:02:26 <Deewiant> ゜<- stick that on a kana, and it's incorrect in general
17:02:35 <alise> The Liberal Democrats really want election reform and also for Brown to resign if Labour, so basically they're going to pound both parties in the ass to get what they want.
17:02:35 <oerjan> alise: i also read that labour + lib dems don't have a majority in common
17:02:44 <alise> After all, if they don't co-operate with the lib dems, they won't get any power.
17:02:52 <alise> oerjan: No; that's why you pile in a bunch of other random parties with them.
17:03:07 <pikhq> か゜I have no idea how to pronounce that.
17:03:12 <oerjan> random parties that never matter otherwise :)
17:03:23 <AnMaster> alise, but can Labour + the liberal democrats rule alone? And what about minor other ones. Saw something about that in the statistics in the paper. A few seats to small parties
17:03:37 <AnMaster> mostly wales and North Ireland iirc
17:03:38 <alise> AnMaster: No, they cannot rule alone. That is why they would go to a bunch of random tiny parties.
17:03:39 <oerjan> alise: it also means the conservatives have more options than labour in theory, right?
17:03:43 <alise> That way they can get a government.
17:03:43 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/???. (oh goody)
17:03:58 <Rugxulo> looked fine when I cut/pasted it
17:04:02 <alise> Also, the Lib Dems I think would rather ally with the Tories: people really hate Labour, so people won't really like the Lib Dems if they ally with Labour.
17:04:11 <alise> Of course, the Tories and the Lib Dems are basically complete opposites...
17:04:13 <AnMaster> alise, hm, could all those small parties + the conservatives form a government?
17:04:16 <alise> But the Lib Dems have a lot of power right now.
17:04:24 <oerjan> conservatives, bnp and ukip, ftw! >;D
17:04:30 <alise> AnMaster: Most of the little parties involved are left-wing.
17:04:33 <oerjan> or something like that
17:04:53 <AnMaster> alise, I really want to see UK's election system changed to a saner one.
17:05:07 <alise> AnMaster: But, if both Labour and the Conservatives fail to make a deal with the Lib Dems, the Conservatives will rule as a minority government until the whole country collapses from sheer indecision.
17:05:15 <oerjan> alise: how many small parties _are_ there? i only know of ukip and bnp
17:05:25 <oerjan> which definitely don't sound left to me
17:05:35 <AnMaster> alise, true, that is an issue, but what are the rules for forming a minority government?
17:05:36 <alise> surely you have heard of the greens (though they barely exist and would be of ~no use)
17:05:44 <alise> but there's a bunch of scotland/ireland/wales specific left-wing parties
17:05:45 <oerjan> of course i only know of them because they're notorious, probably
17:05:57 <alise> AnMaster: um there aren't any I think
17:06:10 <alise> conservatives have more seats than anyone else, but everyone else still has a bunch of power, no specific government, Q.E.D.
17:06:18 <pikhq> Deewiant: I dunno, perhaps as a way of differentiating /ŋ/ and /g/?
17:06:58 <AnMaster> alise, ah, but what about prime minister post and such, doesn't the parliament have to vote about that or such?
17:07:17 <alise> I'm not actually sure about minority governments.
17:07:36 <AnMaster> and presumably that would need at least 50% yes votes or such (that tends to be the point of voting...)
17:07:54 <alise> About electoral reform, something I wrote:
17:07:57 <alise> In other news, a stochastic voting system (http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html) would have avoided this problem entirely. Some simulated Canadian elections with this system:
17:07:57 <alise> 2004 (http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html)
17:07:57 <alise> 2006: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html)
17:07:59 <alise> 2008: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html)
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17:08:03 <alise> Note that these results are not really accurate, because they use people's tactical votes that were meant to be used on the current system. In an actual stochastic election system, tactical voting would be voting for who you really want, so the votes and thus the results would differ.
17:08:22 <alise> AnMaster: Use the real votes, calculate the outcome with the stochastic system.
17:08:33 <AnMaster> so data from previous elections
17:08:41 <alise> current elections, usually, but yes
17:08:44 <alise> As I say in the last paragraph, this isn't accurate as people shouldn't "tactically vote" under a stochastic system
17:08:55 <alise> (as it's useless; the most rational policy is to vote for your preferred party)
17:09:06 <AnMaster> alise, does canada use such a stochastic system?
17:09:12 <alise> No. It's a bit radical.
17:09:26 <alise> Of course, the problem is that most people Do Not Understand Statistics, and thus would see "random candidate with strict distribution" as "OH MY GOD YOU ARE SELECTING OUR PRIME MINISTER WITH A /DICE ROLL/!?!?!?!?!"
17:09:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: the brits don't know how to do minority governments, they just panic >:)
17:10:09 <alise> "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate."
17:10:14 <pikhq> Judging from what I've seen, the Brits don't know how to do efficient government.
17:10:18 <AnMaster> alise, hm, why use randomness really, what not a deterministic proportional system?
17:10:28 <alise> AnMaster: because "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate."
17:10:30 <alise> this is mathematical fact
17:10:31 <pikhq> Massive, lumbering monsters, however? They've got that down to an art.
17:10:53 <alise> other desirable properties: no "major flips" due to a small number of votes
17:11:08 <AnMaster> alise, so there is proof that there can not be any other system that allows that property?
17:11:10 <alise> also, it's the only system where every vote truly /does/ count
17:11:15 <alise> AnMaster: yes, though I don't know it
17:11:24 <alise> but certainly no system anyone else has thought of has this property
17:11:36 <alise> the randomness /really/ doesn't matter, as O'Connor says,
17:11:40 <alise> "And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years."
17:11:51 <alise> so an extremely fringe party only gets a /single/ seat, and even then only once every 100 years, because of the randomness
17:12:02 <alise> so it's not really "unreliable" or "unpredictable" or "unsafe" in the slightest.
17:12:22 <alise> Of course, this is all theory; until the populace is more intelligent, people will read all this and still think "OMG DICE ROLL".
17:12:26 <pikhq> alise: People are heavily worried about the National Socialist Party getting all the seats.
17:13:06 <alise> pikhq: Yes. And you realise that statistically, it's more likely that, say, giant pigs come down from the sky, tell us that they're manifestations of God, and elaborate unto us a mind-virus that causes us all to actually vote for the Nazis willingly?
17:13:22 <alise> You do; but People (who are, as a rule, a stupid collective) don't.
17:13:25 <pikhq> *I* am well aware of this.
17:13:37 <pikhq> The average person knows fuck-all about statistics.
17:13:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about a modified variant that kept it within, say, 20% (fudge factor here, this number is a complete guesstimate) from the result you would have got from a proportional system?
17:14:10 <alise> AnMaster: Pointless.
17:14:12 <alise> Utterly pointless.
17:14:18 <AnMaster> alise, well sure, but it would calm people down
17:14:19 <alise> Randomness Does Not Work Like That.
17:14:24 <alise> -- and besides, it would just bring back injustice.
17:14:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Might as well just use a proportional system.
17:14:31 <alise> Since it would make tactical voting WORK again.
17:14:35 <alise> Which is the whole bad point.
17:15:25 <AnMaster> alise, pick the number so that the system still work (really improbable that tactical voting would affect anything) but still small enough that the 100% for BNP wouldn't happen
17:15:38 <alise> AnMaster: you're talking nonsense
17:15:41 <alise> it just won't work like that
17:15:47 <alise> because the results can be significantly different from /every/ other voting process
17:15:52 <alise> which is the whole point
17:16:33 <AnMaster> alise, so how well does it reflect what people actually voted? If say, 50% voted for party A, will party A end up with roughly 50% of the seats?
17:17:09 <alise> The definition is /really simple/:
17:17:12 <alise> "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat."
17:17:22 <alise> It's self-evident from the definition that 50% of votes ~> 50% of seats.
17:17:53 <oerjan> i take it it is roughly equivalent to picking a random voter for each seat, and taking their candidate
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17:18:26 <oerjan> or a candidate from their selected party
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17:18:52 <alise> AnMaster: riding is like constituency, I think?
17:19:03 <oerjan> oh hm this is still with british ridings, right
17:19:04 <alise> electoral district/constituency
17:19:47 <oerjan> alise: iiuc, with ridings, it would have one major flaw: there would be no way to ensure the party leaders were elected
17:19:54 <AnMaster> anyway I thought of a fair system, however you can only vote for parties, not for individual people. I can't see how tactical voting would work in that system.
17:19:56 <oerjan> which could surely cause problems
17:20:03 <alise> oerjan: hmm? I don't see how
17:20:17 <alise> AnMaster: Well, tell us the system then, so we can tell you its flaws.
17:20:54 <oerjan> alise: say if the conservatives want to be nearly sure cameron is elected. assuming no riding has > 90% conservative voters, they _cannot_ be sure he doesn't get thrown out
17:21:27 <alise> I'm not sure I fully understand, but - isn't it a /good thing/ to stop parties running on cults of personality?
17:21:32 <alise> We are not MEANT to have a Presidential system!
17:21:42 <oerjan> alise: well i guess _some_ might consider it a good thing
17:21:45 <alise> it's pollution in our political climate, this focus on the leaders
17:21:55 <alise> oerjan: you mean like everyone in UK systems until recently?
17:22:12 <AnMaster> alise, well you vote for the party you want, that is all there is to the voting, no "preferred candidate" or such. Then the votes are counted across the entire country (no "one winner per sector" or such stupid things like the US have), then each party get a proportional number of seats based on the result. Using round to nearest if a seat would end up with 58% of one party and the rest from another.
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17:22:27 <AnMaster> alise, I can't see the flaw in this rather simple system. There might be one
17:22:32 <oerjan> alise: if you say so, i don't know that much about UK pol. history
17:23:02 <alise> AnMaster: you would ideally like party P1 to be elected, but P1 does not get many votes usually. there are two main parties, P2 and P3; P2 is abhorrent, P3 is too but slightly less so. you really want to keep P2 out, even though P1 is your favourite, so you vote for P3.
17:23:08 <alise> That is what tactical voting means.
17:23:40 <AnMaster> alise, how would that work, if I cast the vote for P1 instead it wouldn't be to advantage for P2, would it?
17:24:01 <alise> imagine P2=50, P3=50 apart from your vote
17:24:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: i believe israel uses a system close to that
17:24:13 <alise> P1=2, P2=50, P3=50
17:24:21 <alise> P1=1, P2=50, P3=51
17:24:36 <alise> voting for P3 is better if you really don't want P2 to get in
17:24:36 <AnMaster> alise, so new idea instead of round to nearest: time share on that seat based on the votes for it XD
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17:25:15 <uorygl> `translate gidd det da
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17:25:32 <AnMaster> alise, say, you get one seat that would be 60% party A, 40% party B. with round to nearest it would go to party A, but with time share it would be party A 60% of the time, and party B 40% of the time
17:26:03 <uorygl> `translate Au au vondt vondt, det svir så utrolig lenge.
17:26:05 <HackEgo> Au au pain hurts, it stings so incredibly long.
17:26:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think one could do stochastic voting in a proportional system as well, would also solve the leader problem i mentioned (assuming one thinks it is a problem)
17:26:19 <AnMaster> alise, perhaps it should adjust for when the votes in the parliament are held, so make it 60%/40% of the votes cast instead
17:26:35 <uorygl> I think I would just have a 60% chance of giving it to party A and a 40% chance of giving it to party B.
17:27:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, when was the leader problem mentioned?
17:27:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't see how that is a problem
17:28:07 <AnMaster> and yes, doing it per sector is completely stupid for *any* system
17:28:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: parties might consider it a problem if their "top people" don't get into parliament
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17:28:44 <oerjan> although Venstre managed so last year in norway
17:28:51 <alise> oerjan never said doing it per sector is stupid
17:29:10 <alise> http://pastie.org/951548.txt?key=fim9ynr9xvnvulb6inula ;; Move over, ML, I've just invented a ridiculously abstract meta-language.
17:29:27 <AnMaster> alise, well this stochastic system wouldn't use ridings/sectors right?
17:29:32 <oerjan> alise: it was implied by my leader quibble, really
17:29:39 <alise> "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat."
17:29:45 <alise> Perhaps you should read every word of that sentence.
17:30:09 <alise> The problem with not-per-ridings is
17:30:16 <alise> per-ridings means that in a stochastic system
17:30:26 <alise> everybody gets a number of seats ~= the portion of the popular vote
17:30:32 <alise> they get POWER PROPORTIONAL to their votes
17:30:35 <oerjan> this happened to Venstre because when a norwegian party gets sufficiently small, their outcome essentially _does_ dissolve into separate ridings
17:30:41 <alise> if you don't have ridings and just have one-party-rules-with-all-their-might,
17:30:53 <alise> because one wins and the rest don't
17:30:58 <alise> AnMaster: if you mean
17:31:02 <alise> do it without ridings but still have seats
17:31:02 <oerjan> (no smoothing out candidates for < 4% votes nationally)
17:31:05 <alise> then what do the seats correspond to?
17:31:10 <alise> how many should there be? Why?
17:31:11 <AnMaster> alise, ridings are a bad idea because if you live in an area where, say, 90% of the people prefer party A but you prefer party B, and over the whole country there are many areas with that distribution that means party B will be underrepresented.
17:31:17 <alise> basically this system eliminates the MEANING of constitutencies
17:31:22 <alise> but keeps them just to give an arbitrary total
17:31:39 <alise> AnMaster: oh, that is not how the stochastic system works
17:31:47 <alise> not sure how to explain BUT I'M SURE OERJAN CAN
17:32:19 <oerjan> uorygl: "gidd det da" sounds strange, but means roughly "bother with it then"
17:32:22 <AnMaster> alise, isn't that what ridings mean though?
17:32:31 <alise> I do not think so.
17:32:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Let's say it's 51% for 1 party, 49% for another party in *most* areas. About 51% of the seats will go to one party, and 49% to the other.
17:32:59 <AnMaster> I know the US election system has the issue I mentioned.
17:33:08 <alise> the us election system does not use ridings
17:33:11 <pikhq> Change the percentages, and it still works like that.
17:33:12 <uorygl> oerjan: well, it's in response to "Brannsår! :d digg!", if that helps.
17:33:25 <oerjan> uorygl: also "vondt vondt" is more like an outburst, like "ooh the pain"
17:33:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you mean that pikhq the distribution is calculated across the whole country?
17:33:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: If 90% of the people nation-wide prefer a party, about 90% of the seats will go to them.
17:34:00 <pikhq> This is just how the odds work out.
17:34:17 <uorygl> I wonder what the "digg!" is all about there.
17:35:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, right, as long as it doesn't end up like in US where that property does not hold true I'm okay with it
17:35:31 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, don't worry, it holds in a stochastic riding system.
17:35:46 <pikhq> (presuming that you have some relation between population of a subdivision and that subdivision's representation. The Senate on this system would be *royally* fucked up still.)
17:35:50 <AnMaster> alise, what about the current UK system, it has that problem too doesn't it?
17:36:17 <alise> current UK and Canada system
17:36:26 <alise> let's call it the Westminster system for clarity
17:36:31 <alise> I'm not sure it does
17:36:40 <alise> it's not proportional in any way
17:36:44 <oerjan> uorygl: digg is essentially an english borrowing
17:36:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah yes, each area need to have equal number of people in it if they have equal weight
17:36:45 <alise> stochastic elections are though
17:37:12 <uorygl> What does it mean in English? :P
17:37:44 <oerjan> uorygl: to like something?
17:37:44 <AnMaster> perhaps it is now outdated slang in English
17:37:52 <pikhq> As it is, in the US it is *perfectly* possible to have 5 people electing their own senator.
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17:38:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, that term exists in Swedish too, I would never use it though
17:38:20 <oerjan> but i sort of thought digg was named after it, although it _could_ be about digging up stuff, i guess
17:38:20 <pikhq> It is moderately outdated slang in English, yes.
17:38:37 <uorygl> Digg is probably named after it.
17:38:46 <AnMaster> sounds outdated in Swedish too
17:38:46 <alise> yeah digg is named after dig it YOOOO
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17:40:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: as i see it the whole point of a stochastic system would be to allow national representation to be approximately based on total votes _despite_ having separate ridings
17:41:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: i quite expect that the path of borrowing went english -> swedish -> norwegian
17:43:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, and why would you want to have separate ridings?
17:43:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: i believe quite a lot of last century norwegian slang came via swedish
17:43:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: very _local_ representation, you get to elect someone from your local district
17:43:45 <uorygl> Is there any way for a web page to communicate with its iframes?
17:44:34 <oerjan> at least that's the thing i lately keep seeing as one major _advantage_ of the british system (that and the usual "some party has absolute majority and can govern efficiently")
17:45:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm okay, what about the Swedish election system then? iirc it rather complicated, something like proportional per party across the whole country, then to select the actual persons to fill those places it is based on where a party got most votes or some such
17:45:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: i guess that's similar to the norwegian one. in which case it is _somewhat_ local, but only on a county (län/fylke) basis?
17:46:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't remember which size of the district is used
17:47:39 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden says "Seats in the various legislative bodies are allocated amongst the Swedish political parties proportionally using a modified form of the Sainte-Laguë method. This modification creates a systematic preference in the mathematics behind seat distribution, favoring larger parties over smaller parties which might otherwise win only a single seat. At the core of it, the system remains intensely
17:47:39 <AnMaster> proportional, and thus a party which wins approximately 25% of the vote should win approximately 25% of the seats."
17:48:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: in norway basically _most_ representatives are elected "directly" from counties (with more than one per county though), and then the national representation is smoothed out with one extra seat per county
17:48:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, it could be that, I'm not completely sure
17:49:42 <AnMaster> oh and: "The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list. For instance, in national parliamentary elections, any candidates who receive a number of personal votes equal to ei
17:49:43 <AnMaster> ght percent or greater of the party's total amount of votes will automatically be bumped to the top of the list, regardless of their ranking on the list by the party. This threshold is only five percent for local elections and elections to the European Parliament."
17:49:53 <oerjan> iirc it was increased to one extra seat per county because the lower number frequently meant extra votes to a party were frequently allocated to a district where they _didn't_ have significant votes. this may still be a problem, i don't know.
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17:51:58 <oerjan> we have (had?) those preference vote things too, i think they almost never matter
17:52:43 <oerjan> but then i don't even know the names of most local candidates so why would i bump any...
17:53:20 <oerjan> it may be only for local elections nowadays
17:53:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I remember reading about some parties list being overturned by it in Sweden
17:53:48 <AnMaster> think it was in the last EU election
17:54:14 <AnMaster> someone from 8th place being bumped to first or second or such
17:54:21 <alise> using zeta function regularisation, ∑(n=1, ∞) n^2 = 0, but ∑(n=1, ∞) n = −1/12
17:54:26 <alise> which makes me wonder: wut.
17:54:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, even funnier, iirc we used to have "do not prefer" instead of "prefer" ages ago
17:54:56 <AnMaster> you could iirc check two you wanted to move down the list or some such
17:55:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i vaguely recall something like that in norway
17:55:51 <oerjan> i vaguely suspect they removed that because it actually _had_ an effect, on people the parties didn't want it to affect
17:56:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: but we're so good at it :D
17:56:11 <alise> on *parties the *people
17:56:13 <alise> not the other way around :D
17:56:42 <oerjan> alise: definitely the way i said it
17:56:53 <AnMaster> yeah it doesn't make much sense reversed
17:57:11 <alise> AnMaster: what do you mean err?
17:57:20 <alise> oerjan: you sly man
17:57:39 <alise> he's being snarky.
17:57:59 <AnMaster> alise, no he just said your correction was incorrect.
17:58:07 <oerjan> even i get the occasional snark you know
17:58:21 <oerjan> i think it counts as snark
17:58:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw shouldn't down vote be a better system then? If it does have an effect. After all the elections should represent what people actually want
17:59:17 <alise> AnMaster: no because he was making a statement about party control duh
17:59:27 <AnMaster> but then it could allow some interesting tactical voting. Say, you prefer party A, but you definitely do not want the name from the top of the list in party B to get a seat. Thus you vote on party B but down-vote the first name on the list
17:59:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: no the thing is upvoting only shifts some unimportant people up, and important people a _little_ down. while downvoting can shift _important_ people out. from the view of the party leadership.
18:00:23 <oerjan> actually i vaguely recall for a while the parties could put some people _twice_ on the lists to counteract this.
18:00:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes quite, but the voters should be allowed to get the people they prefer in IMO, and not the ones which happens to run the party.
18:00:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh, that's quite an insane solution
18:01:03 <alise> basically zeta regularisation is stating that
18:01:05 <alise> −1/12 + −2/12 + −3/12 + −4/12 + ⋯ = 0
18:03:30 <AnMaster> alise, what does M.P. mean in English (context is voting system)
18:03:55 <alise> Member of Parliament
18:04:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh and another problem is that since _most_ people don't amend the voting lists, a tiny minority could mess up for candidates even if most people thought they were just fine. in theory even people sabotaging for _other_ parties...
18:04:17 <fizzie> "Military police" can also be a relevant word in the context of voting systems...
18:04:24 <oerjan> (with downvoting, especially)
18:04:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay that is indeed a valid concern.
18:04:59 <AnMaster> (unlike the one you first mentioned)
18:05:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually i see you mentioned the last point above
18:06:24 * oerjan writes too slowly to read everything else before he hits return
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18:07:58 <oerjan> fizzie: not in voting systems of countries we like to compare ourselves to ("land vi liker å sammenligne oss med", common norwegian political phrase)
18:08:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh that about voting for another party just to move someone down?
18:08:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is rather a special-case of what you said
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18:09:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, why don't you read while you are writing?
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18:09:39 <oerjan> hm i don't have to watch the keys but i _do_ watch what i type
18:10:15 <oerjan> i have to keep my spelling errors down _somehow_, you know
18:10:26 <AnMaster> well okay, I need to glace at what I'm writing every few words
18:11:01 <oerjan> also my touch typing is not as perfect as it once was (dammit now i'm thinking about it it gets even harder. btw you are now breathing manually.)
18:11:07 <Mathnerd314> you just need an irc client that puts new messages really close to where you're typing
18:11:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, also, another thing, when you type can you see your hands moving on the keyboard? As in, not that you are looking at it, but seeing it in the "edge" of your vision?
18:11:50 <AnMaster> (I used to need that, so typing in the dark didn't work.)
18:11:54 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: oh it does. i just don't have that much concentration. or maybe i have too much, whatever.
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18:12:16 <AnMaster> (I can do that nowdays, except moving my hand back to the keyboard from the mouse)
18:12:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you need to see that to be able to type?
18:13:20 <oerjan> let me try to avoid it - ok i had troubles with the 'v', there
18:14:12 <oerjan> basically _most_ keys are automatic but not all, and my finger positioning is not stable enough
18:14:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, how did you avoid it? By placing something above the keyboard to hide it or such?
18:14:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: by looking a bit further up than usual. so i didn't really look at the text either, i guess.
18:15:11 <oerjan> basically i'm way out of training.
18:16:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah, and I would have to look way above the screen to do that. Best experiment is when it is dark. Oh and mostly black screen to reduce light from it. I suppose covering the keyboard would work too, but it might be tricky to find something suitable for that
18:16:41 * oerjan is now typing with eyes closed
18:16:49 <oerjan> wow not a single error :)
18:17:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, but again that doesn't really test "not seeing hands", it tests "not seeing hands, nor screen"
18:17:18 <alise> I can type with my eyes closed too, though I imagine my error rate will be quite high; actually it feels very uncomfortable.
18:17:24 <oerjan> although i had to look for the first /
18:17:28 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: next, change the keyboard layout and start over
18:17:31 * FireFly also test writing with closed eyes
18:17:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: so basically what i'm out of with touch typing is _confidence_
18:18:03 <AnMaster> well I can type with eyes closed too, but it is slomewhat slower, and more errors
18:18:56 <AnMaster> alise, also was that a sed expression?
18:18:58 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: no thanks
18:19:06 <alise> AnMaster: no, just a random IRC excpression
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18:19:28 <AnMaster> alise, ah good, because if it was sed you know that + is not "one or more" in sed. it is a literal +
18:19:40 <alise> it would have needed /g, too.
18:20:01 <oerjan> _clearly_ it was perl s///
18:20:02 <AnMaster> alise, I only saw one double-space?
18:20:27 <pikhq> As we all know, IRC has its own regular expression and replacement syntax.
18:20:36 <alise> AnMaster: x matches x+
18:20:45 <oerjan> pikhq: based on a dwim parser, presumably
18:21:01 <pikhq> It is a DWIM-family language.
18:21:09 <alise> AnMaster: and spaces came before the " "
18:21:45 <alise> yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/x/{DWIM}
18:21:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is basically a mix of the most common constructs from the most common dialects
18:22:00 <alise> where \{DWIM} determines an appropriate pattern, and the flag {DWIM} determines appropriate flags.
18:22:15 <alise> yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/\{DWIMeval(x)}/{DWIM}
18:22:18 <alise> because x can contain shorthand and such
18:22:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, for example I doubt negative lookbehind is very common in it
18:22:21 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: now that alise is back, the title is incorrect?
18:22:43 <alise> Were you guys panicing? Aww, how cute.
18:23:29 <AnMaster> Mathnerd314, it says "alise-alert" which is completely accurate, he is here, there is thus a red alert ;P
18:23:55 -!- pikhq has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:24:13 * oerjan gives up on actually reading the logs today
18:24:35 <pikhq> pineapple: ... Sorry.
18:24:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Japanese.
18:24:46 <oerjan> because i've been on here for hours with them in another window, and haven't got beyond the first screen :)
18:24:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which means it's 3 different scripts.
18:25:02 <oerjan> also, they are really long
18:25:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, where was that bit you replied to pineapple? As in, as far as I can tell pikhq haven't said anything for as many screens up as I checked (4)
18:25:46 <alise> <pikhq> pineapple: ... Sorry.
18:26:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: I had a massive thinko.
18:26:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:26:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, you tried to highlight yourself or something?
18:26:22 <pikhq> I was trying to highlight myself.
18:26:42 <pikhq> I'm going to drink more coffee.
18:27:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, you already forgot why coffee? ;P
18:27:21 <AnMaster> (sorry, that wasn't fair, it was actually same second for both on this side)
18:27:40 <AnMaster> (and mine was just before yours, but I realised it could be unclear on the other end)
18:27:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yeah I meant why self-highlight
18:28:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: I haven't a clue.
18:28:10 <pikhq> SED, MI SXATAS LA KAFON.
18:28:59 <pikhq> デモ、 ボク ガ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。
18:29:38 <pikhq> ... boku ga kohii ga? That's... Wrong.
18:30:01 <pikhq> デモ、 ボク ハ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。
18:38:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:42:09 <pikhq> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Josiah Dammit, why has my name become popular? :P
18:44:32 <pikhq> Yes, King Josiah was indeed in the Bible.
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18:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> My life feels empty and without meaning. Any suggestions on interesting things to do?
18:47:01 <Mathnerd314> curses, you just made me feel the same way
18:47:37 <Mathnerd314> I have a spare copy which I (probably?) could send you
18:47:51 <alise> that's just as illegal
18:48:44 <alise> welcome to copyright law
18:49:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no it is not of course
18:49:07 <AnMaster> alise, well, you could give away your own copy couldn't you? Assuming you didn't keep it as well
18:49:15 <alise> sharing copyrighted software is illegal. End of.
18:49:25 <alise> this is the very basis of copyrigth law.
18:49:56 <alise> you are really naive
18:50:05 <alise> ok, let me be more formal
18:50:15 <AnMaster> alise, so does this apply to art too?
18:50:40 <AnMaster> alise, so you cant sell paintings on your walls?
18:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And if he has a CD with Mathematica on it, which he hasn't installed, it is illegal for him to give it to me?
18:50:41 <alise> Providing anyone with a copy of copyrighted material without the express permission of the copyright holder or someone authorised to give permission on their behalf, is illegal.
18:50:53 <alise> AnMaster: that isn't how physical property works
18:50:59 <AnMaster> alise, well that is what you saifd
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18:51:07 <alise> I am talking about abstract entities only.
18:51:15 <AnMaster> alise, if you no longer have a copy it is the same as selling a painting
18:51:22 <AnMaster> if you kept it as well, that would be different
18:51:44 <alise> Digital information does not work that way and when you get fucked for copyright infringement don't come whining to me
18:51:51 <alise> Yes copyright law makes no fucking sense
18:51:52 <AnMaster> alise, so what about cds with game on them
18:52:00 <AnMaster> selling that cd would be legal or not?
18:52:14 <AnMaster> assuming you bought that cd before
18:52:17 <alise> AnMaster: Physical.
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18:52:34 <alise> It's not surprising that AnMaster is being an idiot but I didn't expect others to be so naive.
18:52:39 <AnMaster> alise, this makes no sense, if you erase your copy you no longer have it
18:52:54 <alise> YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COPYRIGHT LAW.
18:53:09 <alise> AnMaster: Of course it fucking doesn't
18:53:16 <alise> It's applying artificial scarcity to unscarce bits
18:53:20 <alise> THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE
18:53:22 <AnMaster> alise, are you sure you didn't just misunderstand it?
18:53:22 -!- MizardX has joined.
18:53:25 <alise> and that is WHY copyright law is PATHOLOGICAL
18:53:30 <alise> AnMaster: I am 100% certain that I am right.
18:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Indeed. You have already started asserting your superiority over all who are sceptical of your point.
18:54:52 <alise> because this is basic copyright law
18:58:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: The whole *point* of copyright is to make some non-scarce things more scarce.
18:59:41 <Mathnerd314> ok - I have a wolfram (student) download/license, unactivated, unused, etc.
18:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It's obviously illegal to start selling photocopies of Harry Potter.
19:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The debate is over what you can do with your own copy.
19:00:08 <pikhq> alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program.
19:00:13 <pikhq> First sale doctrine.
19:00:24 <alise> pikhq: Mm, but copyright law muddles that immensely.
19:00:31 <alise> "Your copy" almost entirely loses meaning.
19:00:43 <alise> Which one of your copies? The one in memory, on disk? What Colour does it have? What? Who? Where--
19:01:20 <pikhq> alise: First sale doctrine has been stated to override copyright law. You must not *retain* copies of the item, but you are still free to give it to someone else
19:01:34 <pikhq> This is completely asinine, yes, but that's beside the point.
19:01:48 <alise> Huh. ...Surely this has to be US-only.
19:01:53 <alise> The UK isn't /that/ crazy...
19:01:57 <alise> At least its insanity is consistent, surely.
19:02:19 <pikhq> This was ruled by a court, rather than being written in law.
19:02:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Regardless, it is UNACTIVATED.
19:02:48 <alise> That is, you would have to use a key generator to use it anyway.
19:02:58 <pikhq> (as the only way for first-sale doctrine as commonly known and copyright law as written to interact without one or the other being denied.)
19:03:00 <alise> So honestly... just pirate it.
19:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, so Mathnerd doesn't have the means to activate it himself?
19:05:21 <Mathnerd314> it goes something like website->download->enter code->activate
19:06:32 <Mathnerd314> oh, I have to register it after I download it
19:08:15 <alise> using the student version isn't legal if you're not a student
19:08:19 <alise> i thought at least /that/ would be obvious
19:08:25 <alise> obtaining the license key
19:08:43 <alise> read the fucking wolfram site, I don't know how they define it
19:08:49 <alise> if you DO meet the criteria you can get it legally yourself anyway
19:09:47 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: "Available to those working toward a high school, associate's, bachelor's, master's, doctoral, or equivalent degree"
19:10:20 <alise> ...so if you are doing that...
19:10:23 <alise> Just get a damn student license!
19:10:26 <alise> If you're not... it's illegal!
19:11:16 <pikhq> And if you don't care... Might as well pirate! Arrrr!
19:11:43 <alise> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:11:51 <Mathnerd314> I now understand the logistics of pirating :p
19:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
19:14:28 <alise> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:14:31 * alise rapes and pillages
19:15:24 -!- coppro has joined.
19:15:27 * Phantom_Hoover has come out of this even less certain of things than he was before.
19:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> All I know is that copyright law is even stupider than I thought it was.
19:17:28 <Mathnerd314> alise: who exactly are you raping and pillaging? it seems hard to do over the internet :p
19:20:40 <alise> Mathnerd314: you don't want to know.
19:21:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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19:34:06 <Mathnerd314> alise, Phantom_Hoover: suppose I did in fact know, because I convinced you to tell me. what arguments would my future self give my current self for why I wouldn't want to know what my future self knew?
19:34:17 <alise> Mathnerd314: stop trying to sound clever
19:34:36 <alise> and the answer, little man, is that you *don't* want to know the reasons
19:35:20 <Mathnerd314> I sincerely doubt my future self would say that
19:36:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If you did, you would beg your past self not to find out.
19:36:24 <alise> Mathnerd314: that is only because you are in denial.
19:36:41 <alise> It is don't-want-to-knows all the way down, Mathnerd314.
19:36:50 <SgeoN1> What did I miss? This sounds interesting.
19:37:41 <alise> SgeoN1: (it's just fluff)
19:38:07 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: but *how* would I beg my past self? what arguments would I use?
19:38:49 <alise> You *don't* want to know.
19:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You would be incapable of telling your past self, out of compassion.
19:40:32 <Mathnerd314> well, in similar situations, I've heard similar things, and know that I would be able to tell my past self something more substantial than that I am incapable of telling my past self anything
19:41:22 <alise> Mathnerd314: those things were not the Infinite Tower of Despair.
19:41:29 <alise> Only the Infinite Tower of Despair satisfies this infinite chain.
19:41:39 <alise> You don't want to know. All you could say: You don't want to konw.
19:41:44 <alise> The truth: You don't want to know.
19:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You could, but you *don't* want to know what's in them.
19:43:18 <pineapple> how far back? i can't tell the signal to noise ratio
19:43:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Suffice to say that you neither want to know the Freenode network topology nor who alise is raping.
19:44:11 <alise> And being generally ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR towards.
19:44:19 <alise> pineapple: this is /all/ noise...
19:44:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But perhaps there is signal in it that you *don't* want to know/
19:45:18 <pikhq> The signal is hidden in the timestamps.
19:45:35 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: stop with the wanting already. I know what I want at this current moment, and I want to know
19:45:47 <alise> gah; internet is out
19:46:43 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: so... how does my future self convince me?
19:47:28 <Mathnerd314> so he says, "I beg you... don't want to know!"
19:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> To be convincing, I would have to tell you things that you *don't* want to know.
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19:50:43 <Mathnerd314> the symptoms cannot be worse than the disease...
19:51:21 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:51:37 -!- alise_ has joined.
19:53:44 <alise_> i was on 3g stick before
19:54:52 <alise_> man this is the best connection i've ever had
19:54:53 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: not quite :P
19:55:23 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: so can I get physically harmed by knowing?
19:56:37 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: it's a yes or no question, with a very small amount of damage either way
19:56:51 <pineapple> Phantom_Hoover: you *don't* want to know what i'm going to do to you with a cucumber if you don't stop saying that...
19:59:42 <Mathnerd314> so therefore, as a logical being, I am immune to it.
20:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> If you really think you're a logical being, you've got something wrong.
20:01:43 <Mathnerd314> well, I've been reading a lot of http://www.lesswrong.com/. So I should be pretty logical by now
20:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Reading Less Wrong does not automagically make you logical.
20:02:55 <alise_> Mathnerd314: Hah, I knew you were reading Less Wrong.
20:03:01 <Mathnerd314> though of course there's no logical way to *prove* I'm logical
20:03:14 <alise_> Smart people there. Very smart. Effect on most people: verbose meanderings that just show someone trying to seem logical.
20:03:16 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: false.
20:03:58 <alise_> false, as in, what you said is false.
20:04:09 <alise_> humans are not ""innately"" illogical, we just have several built-in biases that make being logical more work.
20:04:41 <alise_> Mathnerd314: can I just recommend that you avoid talking authoritatively about rationality until you've developed it a bit more and got over the initial lesswrong rush?
20:04:46 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: but it is still possible to be logical.
20:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I strongly doubt that LessWrongers never act illogically.
20:08:35 <alise_> omg. mathematica is downloaded /already/
20:08:39 <alise_> this is like sex on wheels
20:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I would ask what on earth you meant, but I know what you'd say.
20:10:49 <Mathnerd314> apparently it has something to do with cars
20:10:52 <alise_> it is like sex, moved by a contraption of wheels
20:13:32 <alise_> Strange that nothing happens.
20:17:45 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: I just used torrentz.com, lazy as I am, and found http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4566766/WOLFRAM.RESEARCH.MATHEMATICA.V7.0.LINUX-EDGEISO
20:17:50 <alise_> which includes a keygen that works with wine
20:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> And when The Government come to murder you in your sleep?
20:19:10 <Mathnerd314> well, wolfram hasn't started litigation yet
20:20:53 <Mathnerd314> and it's pretty hard to sue someone who's not actively downloading
20:21:07 <alise_> Huh; the GUI is rendering in Windows-y colours.
20:21:43 <Mathnerd314> yeah; the linux port is not that good, I hear
20:22:59 <alise_> But it isn't as laggy as last time, at least.
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20:26:10 <fizzie> You made me look, so; the upgrade from the student Mathematica to the retail Mathematica has a 75 % discount, which is not too shabby.
20:26:33 <fizzie> Of course the retail price *is* 3185 EUR, so it's still not exactly cheap.
20:26:49 <fizzie> (Or 3980 EUR for the Solaris version.)
20:27:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wolfram's ego.
20:27:53 <fizzie> I don't know many people who have bought that; though I know of two that have bought the student license, which I think was something like 70 EUR.
20:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a *difference* between the student version and the standard one?
20:29:07 <fizzie> Uh, actually they seem to have bumped the student price up to 150 eur for Mathematica 7.0. (I last looked at it for 6.)
20:29:27 <fizzie> But it's still >3keur difference.
20:29:53 <fizzie> There's no functional difference. But you must stop using it when you graduate.
20:30:36 <fizzie> Hm, 128 EUR if you get the download version directly from Wolfram. 150 eur was our university's list price, but I think that includes a nifty installation disc.
20:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Wolfram Research must have found out about the thing that you *don't* want to know.
20:31:28 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should go into the den, where I have a working computer.
20:31:57 <SgeoN1> Rather than just using my phone in my room
20:32:56 <SgeoN1> Hm, what's the student price for Flash. If it's free, I just might get it.
20:33:01 <fizzie> It would be interesting to know their license revenues, though of course they won't tell you that.
20:33:50 <fizzie> I think Adobe's general student discount is about 80% off the retail price.
20:33:59 <fizzie> You could just use Flex or something, though.
20:34:40 <fizzie> "Save up to 80% off the full retail price* with Adobe Student and Teacher Editions — full commercial versions at low prices for students and now teachers, too."
20:34:42 <fizzie> "* Prices are subject to change without notice and are for qualified education customers only. Reseller prices may vary."
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20:39:46 -!- pgimeno has left (?).
20:40:30 <SgeoN1> This is the default privmsg message.
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20:53:28 * SgeoN1 heres some music that he associates with a game that he now knows to be a Bejeweled clone
20:59:55 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: also look at instructions.png (in diff. lang) in the keygen dir
20:59:58 <alise_> and use wine for the keygen
21:02:04 <SgeoN1> Ah, nice desktop computer with a weaker processor than my phone
21:02:54 <SgeoN1> arguably, I'm falling into the clockspeed=better trap, but it is an old computer
21:06:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:15:35 <alise_> In[16]:= Fibonacci'[n]
21:15:35 <alise_> Out[16]= (GoldenRatio Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n Pi] Log[GoldenRatio] +
21:15:36 <alise_> > Pi Sin[n Pi]) / (Sqrt[5] GoldenRatio )
21:15:39 <alise_> anyone know how to disable this wrapping?
21:16:12 <alise_> Perhaps it would be best for a Mathematica bot to use InputForm:
21:16:16 <alise_> In[2]:= InputForm[Fibonacci'[n]]
21:16:16 <alise_> (GoldenRatio^(2*n)*Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n*Pi]*Log[GoldenRatio] +
21:16:16 <alise_> Pi*Sin[n*Pi])/(Sqrt[5]*GoldenRatio^n)
21:17:36 <Sgeo> That's the MIDI playing on my phone right now, a Tetris midi
21:20:14 <alise_> In[1]:= Limit[Fibonacci[n+1]/Fibonacci[n], n->Infinity] // InputForm
21:20:14 <alise_> Limit::ztest1: Unable to decide whether numeric quantity
21:20:14 <alise_> -Log[2] + 2 Log[1 + Sqrt[5]] - Log[3 + Sqrt[5]]
21:20:14 <alise_> is equal to zero. Assuming it is.
21:20:14 <alise_> Out[1]//InputForm= (1 + Sqrt[5])/2
21:20:19 <alise_> Those error messages are way too verbose for IRC.
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21:29:34 <nooga> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:40:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:49:07 <Sgeo> If I put out a huge collection of unlabelled MIDI files, how many people would help label them?
22:03:02 -!- AndChat| has joined.
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22:03:26 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:04:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
22:04:39 <uorygl> Darn, I did that wrong.
22:04:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:05:02 <uorygl> I don't think Google will do Lojban.
22:05:11 <uorygl> "coi" means "hello" and "la" means "that-which-is-named".
22:06:05 <Sgeo> F My Connection
22:06:39 <uorygl> I chose this nick so that other people who know Lojban might know that I know Lojban.
22:06:50 <uorygl> Since it's a very Lojban name.
22:07:08 <uorygl> It's a transcription of the English word "warrigal".
22:07:43 <uorygl> I see that the Pirate Party has some opposition. In Finland, there has been started a Ninja Party.
22:09:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819]).
22:16:48 <AnMaster> <pikhq> alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program. <-- that was what I was talking about all the time -_-
22:21:04 <uorygl> Wow, it appears that over half of all Finns know English.
22:22:14 -!- Oranjer has joined.
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22:22:44 <uorygl> Hola, Oranjer. ¿Cómo te va?
22:25:01 <uorygl> So, "How does it go for you?"
22:25:14 -!- augur has joined.
22:25:32 <Oranjer> shhh, stop speaking linguistics, it's augur
22:25:43 <uorygl> This isn't linguistics.
22:26:11 <uorygl> Puedo hablar de linguistics si lo quiero.
22:27:04 <uorygl> Vamos a ver, parece que se llama "lingüística" en español.
22:27:12 <uorygl> How difficult to type.
22:28:36 <uorygl> Aquí, tengo que teclear "l i n g opt-u u opt-e i s t i c a".
22:29:23 <uorygl> I guess my option key is pretty much the same as your compose key.
22:29:41 <uorygl> Except my option key makes slightly less sense. U is a diaeresis, E is an acute accent.
22:30:11 <coppro> I need to enable a compose key
22:30:31 <coppro> although, really, I already have to know two different ways to make characters
22:31:23 <uorygl> Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character.
22:32:16 <uorygl> `translate Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character.
22:32:18 <HackEgo> But it's better than when my option key was a key goal and had to change my keyboard layout whenever I wanted to click a special character.
22:32:40 <uorygl> `translate tecla de meta
22:32:55 <uorygl> `translate meta de tecla
22:33:14 <uorygl> Why does it think "tecla de meta" is "key goal" and not "goal key"?
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22:45:42 <nooga> it reminds me of high school
22:47:55 <coppro> Hmm... okay, I'm looking for a new language for my Agora reports; can anyone offer suggestions?
22:49:06 <coppro> I want something with good databasing powers, but isn't as obtuse as SQL
22:49:20 <coppro> and neither do I want to use SQL as the storage layer and something else as the processing layer
23:01:29 <alise_> coppro: well, it doesn't need to be a database. it will fit fine into a regular structure
23:01:42 <alise_> you might want something LINQish though
23:01:44 <pikhq> nooga: Probably just because you ended up "learning" it in high school.
23:02:00 <alise_> if I say Haskell you will probably maul me...
23:02:02 <pikhq> And, frankly, high school language classes tend to suck if you want to actually learn a language.
23:02:17 <alise_> it just makes me want to claw people's eyes out
23:02:18 <coppro> alise_: I considered it, but that means I have to set up all the key associations manually
23:02:32 <alise_> Just put the referenced object in directly.
23:02:37 <alise_> Then have every object keep track of its number.
23:02:46 <coppro> exactly, I don't want to have to do that
23:02:48 <alise_> Get out of the relational mindset.
23:02:58 <alise_> You have to specify what objects are contained in other objects...
23:03:00 <coppro> it's effectively relational though
23:03:24 <coppro> for instance, I can't store the player datastructure directly in the office datastructure
23:03:31 <coppro> because multiple offices may share a player
23:03:50 <coppro> I must store some identifying piece of information about that player (id or name) and then look that up in the set of players
23:04:02 <uorygl> alise_: do you have a particular reason for hating Spanish?
23:04:14 <coppro> I'd like this to be done transparently, e.g. pointers
23:04:20 <alise_> uorygl: everything said in Spanish sounds stupid
23:04:33 <alise_> just as everything in Latin, profound
23:04:47 <alise_> coppro: you don't need one global reference to a player
23:04:57 <uorygl> How about stuff in Lojban, or Finnish?
23:04:59 <alise_> what is wrong with having two identical "coppro" objects in two offices?
23:05:01 <alise_> you don't need pointers
23:05:12 <coppro> alise_: If one gets updated, the other isn't necessarily updated to match
23:05:14 <nooga> pikhq: that's righ
23:05:44 <alise_> coppro: Well, you have to specify what kind of update you mean. This is a functional language, after all.
23:05:52 <alise_> uorygl: I haven't heard much/any spoken Finnish.
23:06:36 <coppro> alise_: let's say I change my nickname
23:07:01 <coppro> I have to make sure both offices' copies of my data are changed appropriately
23:07:20 <pikhq> alise_: And everything written in Chinese on someone's flesh looks "cool".
23:07:53 <alise_> Have a function "modifyPerson" that traverses all the offices etc. and does the transformation e.g. if nick=="x", replace with f(that person) in the returned structure
23:08:12 <alise_> modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"})
23:08:15 <alise_> modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"}) game
23:08:19 <alise_> and get the revised game state back
23:08:27 <alise_> easy to think of things like changeNick as shorthands for these
23:08:35 <alise_> Sure, it's slightly less computationally efficient... but who gives a fuck
23:08:45 <pikhq> Even when it's something like "朝鮮民主主義人民和国！" (The Democratic People's Republic of Korea!)
23:08:57 <alise_> I mean, it lets you use the expressivity and good data structure support of Haskell, and avoid pointers, which suck in Haskell.
23:08:58 <uorygl> How come having two copies of everything is better than having pointers or something?
23:08:58 <coppro> any other suggestions from anyone present?
23:08:58 * pikhq wonders if anyone has ever gotten such a tattoo.
23:09:26 <alise_> uorygl: because you can do something like "name . officeHolder"
23:09:35 <alise_> "name . lookupPerson . officeHolder"
23:09:38 <uorygl> Well, not necessarily two.
23:09:42 <alise_> if the person can mutate
23:09:45 <alise_> it might even be in a gonad
23:09:49 <alise_> and then it gets even uglier
23:10:52 * Sgeo wonders what gonads have to do with what appears to be Haskell
23:11:09 <uorygl> Apparently slang for monads.
23:12:31 <coppro> no one else has any suggestions?
23:12:49 <nooga> uh, a function with side effects that is mathematicaly valid?
23:13:22 <alise_> stop even trying. learn haskell first, then monads
23:13:35 <alise_> do not attempt to come up with explanations of monads until you are sure that you have found one that is correct, because it is almost certainly incorrect
23:13:38 <nooga> one cannot learn haskell without knowing monads
23:13:46 <alise_> and that is simple fact
23:14:00 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: wrong again.
23:14:28 <uorygl> A monad is a pair of functions.
23:15:03 <alise_> No, a monad is fmap, join and unit!
23:15:04 <uorygl> Well, in Haskell, a monad is a type constructor.
23:15:39 <Sgeo> A monad.. I'm not going to say is, but say involves, ways to make data be part of the monad, and to combine a piece of monadized data with a function that returns monadized behavior
23:15:48 <nooga> lambda calculus is pretty straightforward
23:16:44 <uorygl> In Haskell-style-category-theory, a monad is a pair of functions. One takes any value and returns a value in the monad's codomain. The other takes a function taking any value, and returns a function taking a value in the monad's codomain.
23:17:18 <alise_> Haskell-style-category-theory is idiotic because it allows monads that are not functors.
23:17:20 <uorygl> For all a, a value of type "IO a" represents some I/O action that can be performed to yield a result of type a.
23:17:44 <Sgeo> alise_, does anyone actually write such monads?
23:17:55 <uorygl> IO is a monad, so you can use the first function I mentioned to construct a "nop", and the second function I mentioned to string actions together.
23:18:09 <Sgeo> Surely the functor stuff can be implemented in terms of monad functions?
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23:18:30 <uorygl> alise_, I think you have a knack for caring about things that don't matter and not caring about things that matter.
23:18:41 <alise_> That's a nice opinion; I will disregard it.
23:18:48 <uorygl> But perhaps I'm overestimating how objective my opinions are.
23:18:48 <alise_> (Is that not caring about something that matters, I wonder?)
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23:19:11 <alise_> Usually I care about absolute precision and accuracy, so, yeah... I fail at that a ton, though.
23:19:34 * Sgeo cares about fame much more than he cares about fortune
23:19:51 <alise_> Sgeo: Then you are crazy.
23:20:15 <Sgeo> Maybe more Torvalds-like fame rather than, say, celebrity-like fame
23:20:32 <uorygl> You have a tendency to assume your values are everyone's values. But then again, so does everyone.
23:21:10 <Sgeo> Also, I think I'd rather have "Sgeo" be famous than "Seth ...." be famous
23:21:46 <Sgeo> Although then I'd have to change some passwords probably.. some of them are a bit too guessable
23:21:58 <alise_> uorygl: No, I usually just blatantly disregard everyone else's values because they're wrong.
23:22:21 <alise_> Some time ago, I guess, I decided to not bother my thinking with those unneccessary steps where I consider what other people think about whatever I'm thinking about.
23:22:47 <uorygl> I think I'd rathest be known by only one name.
23:22:59 <uorygl> Unfortunately, I've fallen victim to the idea that one shouldn't divulge one's real name online.
23:23:07 <Sgeo> uorygl, too late
23:23:28 <uorygl> It seems I've successfully changed the nickname-I-use-everywhere once.
23:23:41 <Sgeo> My paranoia regarding that though is the reason my name isn't in the WSJ
23:23:48 <uorygl> It used to be ihope (which got disambiguated to "ihope127"); now it's Warrigal (which got disambiguated to "uorygl").
23:23:59 <uorygl> The Wall Street Journal?
23:24:15 <Sgeo> http://alnk.org/rabidpage
23:24:31 <Sgeo> I'm the "friend" of Mr. Parry
23:24:36 <Sgeo> Who you should know
23:25:41 <uorygl> So are you the other co-founder of the Creatures wiki?
23:25:59 <Sgeo> Well, kind of the founder, actually. GR just took over
23:26:07 <Sgeo> And I became a severely absintee founder
23:26:23 * uorygl shudders at the idea of some day being considered "a co-founder of Normish".
23:26:55 <uorygl> Interesting. I find myself hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of my creation, rather than being revived by someone other than me.
23:27:23 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:27:24 <uorygl> That seems kind of cruel.
23:28:07 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Wiki:Administrators
23:28:11 <uorygl> I also find myself hoping that somebody's wondering if some malicious part of me is reading my mind and saying unflattering things I would rather keep to myself. :P
23:29:27 <uorygl> Imagine if that had second-person pronouns instead of first-: "Interesting. I find you hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of your creation, rather than being revived by someone other than you. That seems kind of cruel."
23:30:06 * Sgeo should link to creatureswiki.net and not wikia.com , really
23:32:35 <alise_> I wonder whether my NIH beget my don't-consider-other's-thoughts or vice versa.
23:33:23 <uorygl> Perhaps both simply come from a common source.
23:35:46 * Sgeo listens to La Espero
23:36:05 <Sgeo> Or at least, the melody
23:38:49 <alise_> it'd be nice if there was a calculator that was more CASy than graphingy
23:40:18 * pikhq has yet to change his nickname
23:40:54 * Sgeo has always been /me
23:41:02 <pikhq> Where N is a non-real complex number.
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23:41:59 <Sgeo> There's no more alise-alert in the topic, right?
23:42:32 <pikhq> You *can* look at the topic, you know.
23:42:44 <pikhq> Oh, wait. There's Japanese in there, too. :P
23:42:59 <pikhq> The Japanese is "I love Unicode in my topics."
23:43:33 * Sgeo was hoping that that line was a palindrome
23:44:18 <Sgeo> alise_, where'd you get Oegs from? I'm pretty sure I was Sgeo before I ever used Oegs on occasion, but my Oegs use was not switching to/from Sgei
23:44:35 <Sgeo> Actually, I've been Sgep here before, when I've forgotten Sgeo's password.
23:44:49 * alise_ 's brain's heuristics flag too late
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23:55:16 <alise_> Does anyone know of a name for the number [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]?
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23:55:47 <alise_> you're called dicks' constant.
23:56:05 <alise_> anyway it's irrational and not quadratic, obviously
23:56:22 <alise_> oerjan: you. [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]. name it
23:56:28 <Sgeo> What does that syntax even mean?
23:56:41 <oerjan> are those continued fractions?
23:56:50 <oerjan> i recall e has something linear like that
23:57:50 <alise_> [a_0; a_1, a_2, a_3, ...] = a_0 + (1 / (a_1 + (1 / (a_2 + (1 / a_3 + ...
23:58:40 <oerjan> !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50]
00:00:08 <oerjan> http://oldweb.cecm.sfu.ca/cgi-bin/isc/lookup?number=1.4331274267223117&lookup_type=simple
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00:00:59 <Sgeo> !haskell foldl1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50]
00:01:00 -!- MizardX has joined.
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00:01:18 <alise_> !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50000]
00:01:21 <Sgeo> !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) $ reverse [1..50]
00:01:35 <facsimile> !haskell foldr1 (flip (\x y -> x + 1/y)) $ reverse [1..50]
00:01:37 -!- MizardX has joined.
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00:01:59 <alise_> oerjan: what is that site anyway? it's like Plouffe's inverter but less comprehensive.
00:02:15 <facsimile> I USED plouffes inverter the other day!
00:02:32 <oerjan> oh, i think i was looking for plouffe's inverter, but google failed me then
00:02:41 <facsimile> I was trying to find a number expressed in terms of sqrt(13) and mysearch program didnt get it... but plouffes inverter did
00:02:49 <alise_> oerjan: it is a better result though
00:02:55 <alise_> because plouffe's had a ton of irrelevant crap
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00:04:08 <oerjan> alise_: ah well all the other hits are just more continued fraction stuff...
00:04:16 <alise_> I have this urge to write a program to approximate curves to write a little silly mathematical typesetter.
00:04:20 <alise_> oerjan: most false positives
00:04:28 <alise_> it does mark ContFrac(naturals) though
00:05:04 <alise_> Also, I have this urge to write code for some sort of embedded CPU to make an almighty CASulator.
00:05:15 <oerjan> ouch the links to OEIS are borken
00:05:41 <oerjan> alise_: i presume most of those sequences are things _starting_ with 1,2,3... for a good number of terms
00:08:52 <oerjan> oh the continued fraction for e isn't that simple, it has 1,1 between 2n terms
00:10:15 <oerjan> tanh(1) is close, except with only odd numbers
00:10:32 <alise_> now find one with only even numbers, and define the continued fraction interleaving operation
00:12:41 * oerjan realizes he wrote borken above without noticing
00:13:26 <oerjan> (tanh(1/n) and others are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Regular_patterns_in_continued_fractions)
00:14:24 <alise_> Hey, the Bessel function is what it was looked up as.
00:14:28 <oerjan> ah what the inverters gave were those bessel functions, wasn't i... right
00:16:09 <alise_> It's a nice number. I like it.
00:16:30 <alise_> I think, it being unnamed, I will name it Hird's constant. Unless I think of something better to give that name to in my time, in which case it won't be called that any more.
00:18:59 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khinchin%27s_constant
00:19:07 <oerjan> (no it's not the same one)
00:19:17 <oerjan> but i found it interesting
00:19:23 <alise_> Its symbol is \mathcal{H}.
00:20:37 <alise_> http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.5771.png
00:21:15 <nooga> nooga :: Time -> Object
00:21:27 <nooga> nooga saturday_night = beer
00:21:37 <alise_> doesn't work; saturday_night is a variable
00:22:03 <oerjan> you want SaturdayNight, obviously
00:22:25 <nooga> nooga SaturdayNight = Beer
00:23:25 <alise_> Generalised Hird constant:
00:23:41 <alise_> H_n = n + (1 / (n + 1 + (1 / n + 2 + (1 / (n + 3 + ...
00:24:22 <alise_> Sometimes I think I may be just that little bit /too/ clever.
00:26:11 <alise_> Why does Mathematica fail so hard that it won't even evaluate H numerically?
00:26:23 <alise_> In[6]:= N[ContinuedFractionK[k, {k, 0, Infinity}]]
00:26:23 <alise_> Out[6]= ContinuedFractionK[k, {k, 0., \[Infinity]}]
00:28:43 <alise_> RSolve[hird[n + 1] == n + 1 + (1/hird[n]), hird, n][[1]]
00:28:44 <alise_> Out[15]= Function[{n}, (BesselI[-1 + n, -2] + n BesselI[n, -2] +
00:28:44 <alise_> BesselK[-1 + n, 2] C[1] + n BesselK[n, 2] C[1])/(BesselI[n, -2] +
00:29:03 <oerjan> alise_: erm precedence fail in that H_n i think
00:29:30 <oerjan> presumably you want 1 / (, not (1 /
00:29:31 <alise_> yeah, missed a paren before (n + 2
00:30:23 <alise_> Hird[n_] := (BesselI[-1 + n, -2] + n BesselI[n, -2] +
00:30:23 <alise_> BesselK[-1 + n, 2] + n BesselK[n, 2])/(BesselI[n, -2] +
00:30:36 <oerjan> alise_: hm you realise H_n = n + 1/H_{n+1} ?
00:30:46 <facsimile> I'm reading a book about finite group theory
00:30:56 <alise_> RSolve[hird[n + 1] == n + 1 + (1/hird[n + 1]), hird, n][[1]]
00:30:56 <alise_> Out[25]= Function[{n}, 1/2 (-Sqrt[5 + 2 (-1 + n) + (-1 + n)^2] + n)]
00:31:00 <alise_> that is even nicer!!!!
00:31:15 <alise_> no silly Bessel nosiree just good ol' sqrts
00:31:37 <alise_> THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANTED
00:31:58 <alise_> I made another mistake lol
00:32:14 <alise_> ReplaceAll::reps: {hird[n]==n+1/hird[1+n]} is neither a list of replacement rules nor a valid dispatch table, and so cannot be used for replacing. >>
00:32:30 <alise_> OERJAN COME UP WITH A NICE EXPRESSION FOR IT THX
00:32:42 <alise_> when in doubt, consider a mathematician to be your computer.
00:33:05 <alise_> HEY it's a law, I named it so I can't do the work about it
00:33:20 <alise_> that responsibility falls unto /you/, who will be shafted by history
00:33:38 <oerjan> !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [1..50]
00:33:40 <EgoBot> [1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.039938643221006,25.038406899
00:34:26 <oerjan> erm the last few terms are not exact
00:34:30 <oerjan> !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [1..100]
00:34:31 <EgoBot> [1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.039938643221006,25.038406899
00:34:45 <alise_> is that the successive hird numbers?
00:34:51 <nooga> !sadol !=$3000$3000
00:34:54 <alise_> if so, may i note that you forgot H_0
00:34:56 <oerjan> the last one just looked truncated
00:35:07 <oerjan> !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..100] -- sheesh
00:35:08 <alise_> !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..100]
00:35:10 <EgoBot> [0.697774657964008,1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.0399386432
00:35:10 <EgoBot> [0.697774657964008,1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.0399386432
00:35:16 <alise_> !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..100] :: CReal
00:35:41 <alise_> egobot doesn't have it
00:35:41 <oerjan> i doubt that EgoBot has CReal
00:35:50 <alise_> <alise_> > scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..10] :: [CReal]
00:35:50 <alise_> <lambdabot> [0.6977746579640063874581706013218497243509,1.4331274267223150332875975712205324867433,2.3087893730662226112174662595471111580419,3.2384534159002329348068701459991873036222,4.19369123409157731148406
00:35:50 <alise_> <lambdabot> 60758323982791002,5.1628562577447335811648079306071871127633,6.1403842495719992391097584173482975080845,7.1233062330623306233062330623306233062331,8.1098901098901098901098901098901098901099,9.1,10.0]
00:35:59 <alise_> it seems i have found quite some nice numbers!
00:36:08 <oerjan> also, isn't CReal somewhat lazy, in which case you should be able to use [0..]
00:36:24 <alise_> H_1 = I_0(2)/I_1(2); H_2 = I_1(2)/I_2(2)
00:36:49 * alise_ chops off the first term again
00:37:11 <alise_> so H_(n+1) = I_n(2) / I_(n+1)(2)
00:37:20 <oerjan> or wait CReal cannot know that the list doesn't contain something enormous negative far beyond
00:37:31 <alise_> which, err, begs the question,
00:37:55 <alise_> I do not think there is I_-1
00:37:59 <nooga> !sadol :o:g:a0~n5?=#_4"+94SaturdayNight!"4Beer0 nooga "+94SaturdayNight
00:38:21 <alise_> I_-1(2)/I_0(2) = I_1(2)/I_0(2)
00:38:32 <alise_> so basically apply abs
00:38:57 <alise_> or, you know, you don't have to
00:39:19 <alise_> Out[37]= 500.001996000004
00:39:25 <alise_> Hird[n] is almost n as n gets big enough
00:40:04 <alise_> and if n is sufficiently big, 1/(n+1) is tiny
00:41:15 <nooga> could you write a function that finds any equilibrium of given list in haskell?
00:41:37 <alise_> Out[46]= BesselI[1, 2]/BesselI[2, 2]
00:41:37 <alise_> Out[47]= BesselI[2, 2]/BesselI[1, 2]
00:42:17 <alise_> H only clashes with harmonic numbers outside of typesetting, \mathcal ofc
00:43:55 <alise_> wait that -n conjecture is actually false.
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00:45:32 <nooga> i hate Bessel and Tchebyshev
00:45:34 <oerjan> <uorygl> Wow, it appears that over half of all Finns know English.
00:45:41 <alise_> Erm, heh, there are even real-indexed Hird numbers!
00:45:53 <oerjan> it's a mandatory school subject in norway, i presume it's the same in finland and sweden
00:46:04 <nooga> it's even the same in Poland
00:46:07 <oerjan> i think nowadays from first grade, even
00:46:21 <oerjan> (it was fourth grade back when i did it)
00:46:25 <alise_> there are even imaginary-indexed Hird numbers
00:46:26 -!- coppro has joined.
00:46:44 <nooga> yeah, but here they "teach" English instead of teaching it
00:46:46 <oerjan> nooga: what's an equilibrium?
00:47:52 * oerjan somehow avoided most of bessel and tchebyshev in his education, despite getting a math doctorate
00:48:00 <oerjan> unless i've just forgotten it
00:48:10 <uorygl> alise_: what is this Hird function?
00:48:13 <nooga> oerjan: electronics, filters
00:48:16 <alise_> uorygl: Not a function; Hird numbers.
00:48:30 <uorygl> What is this Hird numbers?
00:48:51 <alise_> It started with H = [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...] (continued fraction). Now I have successfully generalised it to H_n for natural n = [n; n+1, n+2, n+3, ...]; Mathematica decided to take that further. Definition:
00:49:19 <oerjan> nooga: i mean the answer is obviously yes if it's computable at all
00:49:27 <alise_> H_n = I(n-1, 2)/I(n, 2); I is the modified Bessel function of the first kind.
00:49:34 <alise_> Where I(a,b) = I_a(b).
00:49:38 <nooga> oerjan: equilibrium is an index i in array a that satisfies a[0..i] = a[i..last]
00:49:54 <alise_> Known properties: H_n gets close to n as n increases; H_-n = 1/H_(n+1).
00:50:07 <nooga> i'm just curious how it would look in haskell
00:50:12 <oerjan> nooga: what the heck is a[0..i] and a[i..last]
00:50:23 <alise_> uorygl: If you want to play along at home, and have a copy of Mathematica:
00:50:25 <alise_> Hird[n_] := BesselI[n - 1, 2]/BesselI[n, 2]
00:50:52 <alise_> uorygl: In LaTeX, write \mathcal{H}_n.
00:51:11 <oerjan> nooga: i'm sure i could write it if you could explain it, unless it involves fourier transforms or something like that (and even then, but i would probably be too lazy for that)
00:51:18 <uorygl> I don't even know if my university has Mathematics.
00:51:19 <nooga> oerjan: a[0]+a[1]+a[2]+...+a[i] = a[i]+a[i+1]+a[i+2]+...+a[n]
00:51:35 <alise_> uorygl: Well, you can also use Wolfram Alpha for most of it.
00:51:41 <alise_> http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.5801.png
00:51:47 <alise_> I did, of course, shamelessly name these after myself.
00:51:56 <oerjan> nooga: aha, so the sum to the left == sum to the right? but ther can only be one such index afaict
00:52:00 <alise_> Hird's constant/number is H_1.
00:52:12 <alise_> The whole H_n shenanigans is the Hird numbers.
00:52:18 <alise_> H_72 is the seventy-second Hird number.
00:52:35 <coppro> just out of curiosity; isn't the convention to let someone else name stuff after you?
00:53:14 <Sgeo> I'd imagine such "convention" has been broken before
00:53:36 <nooga> oerjan: usually i don't talk with doctors of mathematics at night ;D
00:53:37 <alise_> but fuck it, I'm never going to get another chance at getting something named after me
00:53:40 <alise_> so who can blame a man?
00:53:55 <Sgeo> alise_, so you DO like fame
00:53:58 <coppro> you're (arguably) in high school...
00:53:58 <alise_> not as if anyone /cares/ about these numbers, being as they are basically poor approximations to n
00:54:06 <alise_> Sgeo: of the mathematical sort, sure...
00:54:06 <coppro> you've got many years ahead of you
00:54:21 <alise_> I can call whatever else I discover the Hird2 number
00:54:21 <uorygl> n! is just a poor approximation to n^n.
00:54:24 <coppro> plus, doesn't this seem like a waste of a good name?
00:54:28 <alise_> uorygl: No it isn't :P
00:54:39 <alise_> coppro: it's not as if anyone will use this name
00:54:45 <alise_> this is more of a joke than anything
00:54:59 <uorygl> a+b is also a poor approximation to max(a,b).
00:55:11 <nooga> oerjan: btw. a[0..i].sum = a[i..-1].sum is Ruby-like notation
00:55:28 <alise_> uorygl: Everything is a poor approximation to either infinity or 0.
00:55:31 <nooga> i'm not sure if Ruby has Array#sum method by default
00:55:33 <oerjan> !haskell let equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l) in equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
00:55:42 <uorygl> Everything is a poor approximation to both. :P
00:55:59 <alise_> uorygl: Hey, hey, 0 is not a poor approximation to infinity, and infinity is not a poor approximation to 0.
00:56:11 <alise_> They are two ends of a circle, infinitesimally distanced; they are GOOD approximations of each other!
00:56:37 <uorygl> No, they're really pretty bad approximations of each other.
00:56:44 <uorygl> In what metric are they close?
00:56:52 <oerjan> !haskell let {equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l)} in equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
00:56:52 <nooga> alise_: oh crat, I could swear that i used it several times, maybe it was defined in my code somewhere
00:57:27 <alise_> uorygl: whatever extension of the reals has infinity but not -infinity, is defined as being a circle where 0 is one end and infinity is what you get at the other side or something
00:57:27 <oerjan> hm there must be an actual error there but damn if i can see it
00:57:30 <alise_> joined at both ends or something?
00:57:36 <alise_> I don't remember exactly
00:57:40 <alise_> but there's your metric
00:57:49 <alise_> take the naturals, tie both ends together
00:57:51 <alise_> there's your number-circle
00:57:57 <alise_> 0 and infinity are right next to each other, Q.E.D.
00:58:33 <oerjan> !haskell equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
00:58:54 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
00:59:30 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line ;; so, drop the negatives, and 0 becomes right next to infinity
00:59:59 <nooga> i see problems with computational complexity of that thing
01:00:02 * Sgeo remembers reading about that in Flatterland
01:00:49 <Sgeo> Oh, and I sort of fantasized about something like a "number circle" when I was in my pseudomathematician days
01:01:22 <uorygl> Define infinity equal to e^(-pi*sqrt(163)). Boom, 0 and infinity are really close to each other.
01:01:45 <uorygl> But yeah, defining 0 and infinity to be right next to each other is a great way to get them to be right next to each other.
01:01:51 <alise_> In[90]:= Hird[Hird[Hird[Hird[n]]]]
01:01:51 <alise_> BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/
01:01:51 <alise_> BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2]/
01:01:51 <alise_> BesselI[BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/
01:01:52 <alise_> BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2], 2]/BesselI[
01:01:54 <alise_> BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/
01:01:56 <alise_> BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2]/
01:01:58 <alise_> BesselI[BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/
01:01:59 <nooga> abstract algebra -> interesting, esoteric, pain in the ass when you're studying
01:02:02 <alise_> BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2], 2]
01:02:32 <Sgeo> Hm, it does make sense that inf+inf is undefined
01:02:41 <alise_> uorygl: Well, if we consider the naturals as a line such that one end is 0 and the other end is infinity,
01:02:45 <Sgeo> But inf+inf != 2*inf
01:02:59 <alise_> Then a reasonable way to be able to answer questions about order on infinity would require some number to be said to be "after" infinity, I guess?
01:03:05 <alise_> I'm just looking for excuses.
01:03:14 <alise_> Sgeo: Simple answer: Add infinity, lose mathematical properties.
01:03:40 <nooga> infinity should behave like 0
01:06:22 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 $ zip (scanl (+) 0 l) (scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
01:06:44 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 $ zipWith (-) (scanl (+) 0 l) (scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
01:06:46 <uorygl> For infinity inspiration, we should look to projective geometries.
01:07:03 <uorygl> Extend y = x^2 to the real projective plane, and you'll see what infinity squared is.
01:07:25 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 $ zipWith (-) (scanl (+) 0 l) (tail $ scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7]
01:07:36 <uorygl> (Hint: it's infinity.)
01:08:43 <oerjan> hm i guess with negative numbers there _could_ be more than one spot
01:09:27 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndices 0 $ zipWith (-) (scanl (+) 0 l) (tail $ scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,-2,2,7]
01:10:21 <oerjan> huh that's correct i think
01:11:01 <nooga> i think it is correct.... Also doctor of mathematics is solving my dumb, theoretical problem, hell yeah ;D
01:11:20 <nooga> i wonder how is the performance of that haskell code
01:12:42 <oerjan> well it builds sums from both the left and right
01:12:59 <oerjan> but it shares the partial sums in each direction
01:13:38 <oerjan> so shouldn't be more than linear
01:14:07 <alise_> hey oerjan didn't solve /my/ problem
01:14:08 <oerjan> the list from left is probably never physically built
01:14:49 <alise_> my Hird numbers stuff :P
01:15:08 <oerjan> i think i may have implied i don't know anything about bessel numbers
01:16:05 <Sgeo> Not particularly good computers. I doubt we can easily store GBs of data in memory for random access
01:16:22 <alise_> In[107]:= FullSimplify[Hird[n] - n]
01:16:23 <alise_> Out[107]= BesselI[1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2]
01:16:24 <nooga> oerjan: so it does not build left and right sums for every index?
01:17:11 <oerjan> nooga: yes it does, but it uses recursion on the neighbors to share the work
01:18:02 <nooga> omg, haskell is so awesome
01:18:49 <alise_> In[135]:= FullSimplify[Hird[n]]
01:18:49 <alise_> Out[135]= Hypergeometric0F1Regularized[n, 1]/BesselI[n, 2]
01:18:58 <alise_> Say it with me now: WUT.
01:19:21 <nooga> i could say WUT for everything that you've pasted today
01:19:32 <nooga> because this notation means nothing
01:19:37 <oerjan> nooga: basically scanl (+) and scanr (+) are like foldl (+) and foldr (+) (which both sum lists), except they also give you a list of _all_ the partial sums
01:20:08 <oerjan> starting from left and right respectively
01:20:29 <alise_> nooga: means nothing how
01:20:36 <alise_> it's either mathematica or just plain ascii mathematical notation
01:20:55 <nooga> Hypergeometric0F1Regularized
01:21:22 <nooga> let's ask the guy with math doctorate: how do we define this thing?
01:21:29 <facsimile> I want to learn hypergeometry soon
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01:21:41 <alise_> Hypergeometric0F1Regularized[a,z]
01:21:41 <alise_> is the regularized confluent hypergeometric function Subscript[\[Null], 0]Subscript[F, 1](a;z)/\[CapitalGamma](a).
01:21:58 <alise_> where the 0 and the 1 are subscripted
01:22:01 <alise_> I have no fucking idea either
01:23:33 <oerjan> i have a slight memory of "hypergeometric" from statistics, i think
01:24:00 <Sgeo> Dear Google: Sgeo and Geo are not synonyms
01:25:02 <alise_> Visualize confluence relation \!\(
01:25:03 <alise_> \(\*SubscriptBox[\(\[InvisiblePrefixScriptBase]\), \(0\)]\)
01:25:03 <alise_> OverscriptBox[\(F\), \(~\)], \(1\)]\)\)\[InvisibleApplication](\[Null];a;z)\[LongEqual]
01:25:03 <alise_> \!\(\*UnderscriptBox["lim",
01:25:03 <alise_> RowBox[{"p", "\[Rule]", "\[Infinity]"}]]\)\[ThinSpace]\!\(
01:25:05 <alise_> \(\*SubscriptBox[\(\[InvisiblePrefixScriptBase]\), \(1\)]\)
01:25:06 <nooga> 02:19 < facsimile> I agree with oerjan
01:25:09 <alise_> OverscriptBox[\(F\), \(~\)], \(1\)]\)\)\[InvisibleApplication](p;a;z/p):
01:25:11 <alise_> What the fuck Mathematica!
01:25:17 <alise_> Admittedly it is rendered on screen.
01:25:20 <alise_> But it doesn't make any more sense!
01:25:22 <oerjan> the hypergeometric distribution is something like the binomial distribution, except you _don't_ get to pull a number twice. or something like that.
01:26:04 <oerjan> "In probability theory and statistics, the hypergeometric distribution is a discrete probability distribution that describes the number of successes in a sequence of n draws from a finite population without replacement, just as the binomial distribution describes the number of successes for draws with replacement."
01:29:22 <nooga> alise_: email Wolfram for explanation
01:30:13 <nooga> guy is named after the element that is often found in lightbulbs, how awesome is that?!
01:31:12 <alise_> guy is named after the famous series of BesselI function numbers, how awesome is that?!
01:32:08 <nooga> if i could change my surname to Thorium or Ununhexium i would do it immediately
01:33:16 <oerjan> element 1111111 seems a little unlikely to be synthesized
01:33:36 <oerjan> hm maybe in neutron stars?
01:34:17 <nooga> btw. what's with LHC?
01:34:34 <oerjan> is there some news about it?
01:35:00 <nooga> the thing is that there is no news about it
01:35:26 <oerjan> it is presumably doing its ordinary, longtime, boring collection of data
01:35:43 <alise_> Unununununununununununununununununium
01:35:47 <oerjan> which it will take months if not years to analyze before anyone can make real news out of it
01:36:04 <alise_> not really boring is it; how many terabytes a second?!
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01:36:32 <alise_> You wouldn't think colliding erections would produce so much data.
01:36:35 <oerjan> well _most_ of it is boring, since interesting collisions are probably very rare :D
01:37:00 <alise_> Indeed. That often happens with hardons.
01:37:03 <nooga> once i've known a guy who worked on analyzing CERN's data
01:37:28 <nooga> they have special grid for this task and he wrote some minor programs for it
01:37:49 <oerjan> nooga: also it is still only working at half its final intended energy, iirc, and will be doing so until end of 2011, when they will take it down to upgrade it.
01:38:12 <nooga> he said that 500TB is nothing when you're talking about CERN's toys
01:38:20 <alise_> Slereah works on the LHC iirc
01:38:30 <alise_> like in france doing some sort of theoretical work
01:38:43 <alise_> I doubt anything highly innovative
01:39:15 <nooga> other friend of mine went to some weir russian CERN equivalent
01:39:21 <oerjan> nooga: conveniently they will be skipping all of 2012 >:)
01:39:38 <oerjan> unless they start it up in december to scare everyone instead
01:39:43 <nooga> and played with some big, old accelerators and nuclear reactors
01:39:45 <uorygl> What if they forget to skip it?
01:40:09 <oerjan> uorygl: that would mean running at half energy for an extra year
01:40:11 <nooga> sadly, he remembers only vodka
01:40:19 <uorygl> (Which, like all my other stupid questions, is an intentionally stupid question.)
01:40:36 <oerjan> also, the end of the world, but we don't talk about that.
01:41:45 <alise_> Currrrrrrrrrrve approximation
01:41:51 <alise_> um... Linear interpolation!
01:42:07 <nooga> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Torun32m_winter.jpg/800px-Torun32m_winter.jpg :D
01:42:15 <uorygl> So, for a Computer Science minor, I can take "Database", which looks bad, "System Programming", which looks worse, or "Data Communications", which I have no idea about.
01:42:56 <nooga> the driver is 386 machine with DOS on board
01:42:58 <uorygl> The topics of the latter two classes are supposed to be abstracted out of sight. :P
01:43:46 <nooga> and some mainframe salvaged from some soviet submarine does the data analysis
01:44:06 * alise_ wonders about a glyph being ((xs,ys),(xe,ye),c).
01:44:08 <uorygl> Here's the topic for Data Communications: "An introduction to data communications techniques, particularly as applied to computer networks. Physical media and devices, data link and network protocols, and other data communications topics will be studied."
01:44:18 <uorygl> Physical media? Neat, I get to learn what a hard drive is.
01:44:18 <alise_> It's a line from (xs,ys) to (xe,ye), curved by c.
01:44:27 <alise_> So we can have negative/positive curves for inwards/outwards curves.
01:44:36 <uorygl> I guess other devices could be interesting... as could network protocols.
01:44:45 <alise_> And 1 would be a semicircle, say.
01:44:48 <uorygl> And the other two classes look icky, so I guess I'm taking this one.
01:44:51 <alise_> With -1 being the other half of a semicircle.
01:44:56 <alise_> Coords are from 0 to 1.
01:44:56 <nooga> uorygl: I've studied automatics and robotics, everything looks even worse there
01:45:41 <oerjan> alise_: (xs,ys)---c-->(xe,ye) except ---c--> is an actual curve with c above it?
01:45:46 <uorygl> The class I took this semester, "Computer Organization", was much more boring than the textbook suggests.
01:45:52 <alise_> oerjan: something like that I guess
01:46:02 <nooga> uorygl: studies are boring
01:46:04 <alise_> (0, 1/2) ->@1 (1/2, 1)
01:46:04 <alise_> (1, 1/2) ->@1 (1/2, 0)
01:46:05 <uorygl> But I've already ranted about that, so I won't rant about it again.
01:46:08 <alise_> Maybe coords from -1 to 1 is better.
01:46:13 <alise_> A lot of things seem to do that. So I will.
01:46:20 <uorygl> nooga: aren't classes pretty much all about studying?
01:46:57 <alise_> I wonder whether this is expressive enough to draw glyphs and stuff.
01:47:06 <nooga> i'm trying to write OSes, compilers and other shit that would give me credits without going to classes
01:47:08 <alise_> Might also want some sort of filling, of course.
01:47:13 <alise_> So, line thickness, basically.
01:47:26 <alise_> Filled circular stuff might be hard?
01:47:44 <nooga> MS Paint or what, alise_
01:48:05 <uorygl> Glyphs are pretty easy with Bezier curves, aren't they?
01:48:11 <alise_> and the idea is to be able to define fonts renderable quickly on, say, a device with an embedded cpu
01:48:24 <alise_> I don't think doing full bezier curves in realtime is feasible on a low powered cpu lke that
01:48:30 <alise_> this is for the CASulator
01:48:37 <uorygl> Bezier curves are pretty easy, aren't they?
01:48:41 <uorygl> They're just polynomials.
01:48:45 <nooga> it's definately possible
01:49:01 <alise_> In realtime, though, rendering a bunch of text?
01:49:15 <oerjan> alise_: if c is a curve from 0 to 1 in the complex plane, then z1 ->@c z2 could mean the curve d(t) = z1 + (z2-1)c(t)
01:49:28 <uorygl> A degree-4 polynomial can be evaluated at a single point using 4 additions and 3 multiplications.
01:49:38 <oerjan> *d(t) = z1 + (z2-z1)c(t)
01:50:07 <nooga> it is an awesome idea for using XMOS
01:50:08 <oerjan> alise_: then it's just rotation and scaling in the unique possible way
01:50:18 <alise_> uorygl: Mine sounds easier to write glyphs in by hand, though :P
01:50:28 <uorygl> So if you have a 640x480 screen, and evaluate a polynomial for every five pixels, that's 3*640*480/5 = 184,320 operations.
01:50:32 <alise_> oerjan: so it's fast, basically?
01:50:40 <oerjan> which is something postscript provides, i recall
01:51:55 <alise_> Of course, it may just be better to use bitmap fonts if we're using a regular calculator display.
01:52:27 <alise_> But nah; response time.
01:52:37 <oerjan> postscript has a translation + matrix iirc, so it can also do shears and stuff
01:52:49 <oerjan> but still linear/affine
01:52:59 <uorygl> Looks like it's impossible for me to take the class I want to take next year. No matter; I'll just take it a different year.
01:53:06 <oerjan> just multiplicatino and addition
01:53:21 <nooga> uorygl: i can't even choose my classes here
01:53:48 <nooga> and it turns out that they try to put EVERYTHING in our heads and then it gets to a point that we know NOTHING
01:53:50 <uorygl> That seems kind of strange.
01:54:00 <nooga> because it's Poland ;D
01:54:13 <uorygl> Whew, it's only Poland.
01:54:38 <uorygl> I forgot that Poland is part of Scandinavia!
01:55:18 <uorygl> No, I didn't forget anything, it's not in Scandinavia at all.
01:55:24 <oerjan> we love our poles, but they are _not_ scandinavians. unless they move here permanently, at least.
01:55:36 <uorygl> What if they move there temporarily?
01:55:55 <oerjan> then they are guest workers, usually
01:55:59 <alise_> the Poles here do all the work
01:56:03 <alise_> nooga: you should come and do the work
01:56:12 <uorygl> Where are you now, alise_?
01:56:52 <alise_> oerjan: ah, well, difference: we /don't/ love our poles
01:56:55 <uorygl> I'd expected you to be somewhere else by now.
01:57:02 <alise_> anyway the magnetic poles cannot move here permanently
01:57:08 <alise_> uorygl: A bit naive, to think moving is so easy.
01:57:21 <nooga> alise_: I don't take your jobs
01:57:36 <alise_> Never said it was my opinion :P
01:57:47 <uorygl> <false>Moving is very easy. Just put your laptop in your backpack and drive somewhere.</false>
01:57:58 <pikhq> alise_: Much like Mexicans.
01:58:04 <pikhq> DER TAKING ER JORBS
01:58:07 <oerjan> alise_: norway still has the lowest unemployment in europe. although they're probably shuffling some data around to make it lower, like everywhere else.
01:58:32 <nooga> oerjan: my brother is in norway, he's studying your language AFAIR
01:58:35 <alise_> uorygl: Here, try and find accommodation in a country you're not in. Now, go.
01:58:58 <uorygl> Sweden has a nice-looking web site, so I'll start there.
01:59:07 <nooga> and I know many Norwegians from our medical university, here in Poznan
01:59:46 <oerjan> alise_: i hear the magnetic poles may be shifting towards europe, actually
01:59:59 <uorygl> Let's see, do I want to work or study?
02:00:02 <nooga> alise_: I found accomodation in Scotland pretty fast
02:00:23 <pikhq> nooga: Where from?
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02:00:34 <nooga> 3 weeks, but i think it would be fully possible to stay much longer
02:00:52 <nooga> the problem was it costed something like 600 quid a month
02:00:55 <alise_> specifically because moving /twice/ sounds unfun.
02:01:25 <uorygl> I almost resisted the urge to do this:
02:01:30 <HackEgo> dollars? At todays exchange rates (2nd Dec 08) 50 = $74.75 ... US dollars? its your moms butt ... US dollars? $847.210 (as of August 4th) ...
02:01:41 <HackEgo> 600 British pounds = 888.48 U.S. dollars
02:01:52 <alise_> So, CASulator! Someone be interested? Please?
02:01:54 <pikhq> That's somewhat pricy.
02:01:58 <uorygl> Wait, where did "its your moms butt" come from?
02:02:15 <nooga> annd i'm not working in the UK so it was a little bit expensive
02:02:25 <pikhq> `calc 600 GBP in ZWL
02:02:27 <Sgeo> alise_, you're going to make a physical CASculator?
02:02:27 <HackEgo> futuresource.quote.com/reference/symlist.jsp?print=true - [37]Cached - [38]Similar
02:02:40 <uorygl> "Moving to someone in Sweden"? How does someone move to someone in Sweden?
02:02:43 <alise_> Sgeo: I want to! Probably I'd write code for an embedded CPU and simulate it on a PC first.
02:02:56 <Sgeo> Sounds interesting
02:03:11 <Sgeo> But unless you're planning on making a CAS from scratch, what are you going to use?
02:03:47 <Sgeo> Oh wait, it's not going to just be porting a regular CAS to an embedded CPU, is it
02:04:01 <nooga> 02:59 < pikhq> nooga: Where from?
02:04:22 <alise_> Especially as I'll need to code with the HW in mind.
02:04:54 <pikhq> `calc 888.48 * 300000000000000
02:04:56 <HackEgo> 888.48 * 300 000 000 000 000 = 2.66544 10^17
02:05:17 <pikhq> 2.66*10^17 Zimbabwe dollars a month.
02:05:23 <alise_> also is that new or old?
02:05:23 <pikhq> Now *that's* expensive.
02:05:28 <alise_> new as in just before being obsoleted
02:06:23 <pikhq> That's just before they introduced the 4th dollar.
02:07:14 <pikhq> The 4th dollar got up to an exchange rate of 255.19 to the USD before being suspended.
02:07:57 <uorygl> Zimbabwe seems to be really bad at handling their currencies.
02:08:57 <pikhq> You see, their solution to the government not being able to fund municipal projects was to print more money.
02:09:19 <uorygl> And they just keep doing that?
02:09:36 <pikhq> Mugabe is not too bright.
02:10:15 <uorygl> Why don't they kick him out?
02:10:31 <oerjan> you don't think they've _tried_?
02:10:52 <uorygl> Well, what's stopping them?
02:11:33 <pikhq> Mugabe is heavily armed and capable of rigging elections.
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02:15:06 * Sgeo looks at someone else's computer through his phone
02:15:12 <pikhq> Mugabe's first action was to seize all the land from white people and reassign it to black people, in an attempt to undo the harm caused by colonialism.
02:15:20 <pikhq> For obvious reasons, this collapsed Zimbabwe's economy.
02:15:26 <alise_> Mugabe is fucking insan.
02:15:49 <alise_> Would you say awesome if you were one of the victims of his regime's anti-white violence...?
02:15:56 <uorygl> I suppose people can always vote with their feet... or not?
02:16:11 <alise_> When you're that poor?
02:16:14 <alise_> How do you propose to do that?
02:16:16 <pikhq> He's done such land reassignments in 2000 as well.
02:16:22 <alise_> Face it; real inescapable fascism does exist.
02:16:39 <alise_> The only way to end it is intervention or natural eventual collapse.
02:16:46 <pikhq> Needless to say, assigning farmaldn to people who don't farm is a completely and utterly *retarded* idea.
02:17:24 <alise_> SO GUYZ LET'S TALK ABOUT CASULATOR
02:17:27 <uorygl> I wonder if any countries pay for travel there.
02:17:57 <pikhq> There's travel bans. That close enough? :P
02:18:19 <uorygl> "Want to come to our country? We'll send an armed helicopter to you and pick you up!"
02:18:25 <uorygl> I'm confident that that's too good to be true. :P
02:18:28 <alise_> I guess the TI-Nspire CAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-Nspire) is the closest thing to the CASulator.
02:18:38 <nooga> nobody even said good night
02:19:16 <pikhq> Oh, and 25% of the country has AIDS, because AIDS is apparently a western plot, and those condoms make things worse.
02:19:43 <uorygl> Yeah, Zimbabwe sounds like a really backwards place.
02:20:15 <pikhq> It's Africa. The end of colonialism there happened in such a way that *everything* got royally fucked up.
02:20:55 <uorygl> Perhaps we should bring back colonialism.
02:20:55 <pikhq> Like most other places, really.
02:21:05 <alise_> WHY DOES NOBODY LIKE CASULATOR
02:21:05 <pikhq> No, that'll make things worse.
02:22:02 <oerjan> <pikhq> Mugabe's first action was to seize... <-- well not the first, but maybe the first really stupid one. he'd had powers for decades before that
02:22:14 <pikhq> oerjan: Mmm, right.
02:22:45 <uorygl> How do independence movements get started?
02:22:45 <pikhq> I remember that vividly because it's the first action of his that is literally the *antithesis* of a good idea.
02:23:10 <pikhq> uorygl: Most of the time? People with guns that are pissed.
02:23:13 <uorygl> Armies don't simply form because a bunch of people want to be in an army.
02:23:34 <pikhq> No, armies form because they feel that they *must* fight.
02:24:41 <uorygl> How do they get their resources, and who leads them?
02:25:15 <pikhq> Any way they can, and whoever was both lucky enough and sufficiently charismatic to lead them.
02:26:31 <pikhq> And how well it ends up is, well, a crapshoot.
02:26:45 <oerjan> pikhq: i occasionally see Botswana (zimbabwe's next door neighbor) mentioned as one place in africa which is _not_ fucked up. at least as far as government is concerned.
02:26:58 <pikhq> You can end up with the US, or you can end up with North Korea.
02:27:02 <oerjan> functional democracy and all
02:27:32 <uorygl> How well would a revolution work nowadays, given that you have all this war technology?
02:27:49 <alise_> mugabe would crush any oppression
02:27:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, yeah. Botswana has a stable government and everything.
02:27:56 <alise_> you simply can't get guns. and if you do, mugabe has more.
02:28:26 <alise_> also 16% of Botswana has AIDS apprently
02:28:58 <oerjan> there's always something :(
02:29:08 <pikhq> Yes, that's because AIDS is just plain *rampant* in all of Africa.
02:29:09 <uorygl> Seems you could just program your technology to only work in the hands of the government.
02:29:35 <alise_> yeah i was reading the botswana article and i was
02:29:37 <uorygl> Boom, the revolution guys have no technology, and they lose.
02:29:42 <alise_> gee whiz this place does have a good government as these things go
02:30:15 <pikhq> alise_: Having a lot of AIDS is pretty good compared to most of the rest of Africa.
02:30:33 <pikhq> After all, otherwise you have a lot of AIDS *and* everything else that could be wrong.
02:30:47 <uorygl> Africa sounds like it has a lot of stuff wrong with it.
02:31:14 <pikhq> uorygl: Colonialism ended in the 50s, and it ended roughly by "Fuck it, we're just leaving".
02:31:27 <pikhq> Bunch of war and shit, and voila. Africa.
02:31:28 <uorygl> What a great way to end colonialism.
02:31:45 <alise_> "Bunch of war and shit".
02:31:46 <uorygl> I wonder how expensive it would be to invade Africa again.
02:32:00 <alise_> You know, glossing over the details.
02:32:14 <pikhq> There's lots of them!
02:32:47 <uorygl> This thought actually ran through my head: "Let's invade Africa and govern them well until their skin--wait, skin color isn't actually determined by prosperity."
02:33:52 <alise_> uorygl: I believe you are insane.
02:36:04 <pikhq> How's about we just make South Korea an island as a show of power and call it a day?
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02:38:02 <uorygl> Huh. If you're a dual citizen, and you go to prison in one country, can the other country generally pluck you out if they want to?
02:38:53 <alise_> Discussions with pikhq lead me to believe that even as a purely British citizen in another country, the only way Britain can touch me whatsoever is if I committed a crime on British soil.
02:39:01 <alise_> If I have, then they can apply for extradition.
02:39:16 <alise_> So I'd assume that someone with /dual/ citizenship would have an even stronger case to stay in the country they reside in.
02:39:53 <pikhq> alise_: They can also petition for your release *from* jail if they feel that the jailing is in some way unfair.
02:39:59 <uorygl> I commit a crime in Country A, so I go to prison there. Country B, however, doesn't consider this a crime, and would be willing to have me as a citizen.
02:40:06 <alise_> pikhq: Well that's nice :P
02:40:09 <pikhq> Such petitioning can actually get pretty serious.
02:40:16 <alise_> uorygl: No, that would not work.
02:40:23 <alise_> In fact, if you escaped to country B, country A /could/ apply for extradition.
02:40:30 <alise_> Unless the crime was serious it would be denied, though.
02:40:55 <uorygl> I believe that extradition generally requires the thing to be considered a crime in whatever country you're to be extradited from.
02:41:20 <alise_> But the point is, no, you couldn't escape prison by going to another country, I don't think.
02:41:26 <pikhq> It depends on the extradition treaty.
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02:42:42 <alise_> What, for my statement?
02:42:53 -!- facsimile has quit (Quit: facsimile).
02:43:32 <pikhq> alise_: You could escape prison by going to a country without extradition treaties.
02:43:44 <pikhq> Most such countries suck *ass* though.
02:44:01 <alise_> And it comes full-circle.
02:44:03 <uorygl> Clearly, the thing to do is install an app on my iPhone that will teleport me to the country of my desire.
02:45:41 <alise_> it was rejected by apple sorry
02:46:34 <pikhq> Also, one can avoid a death sentence from, say, the US, by going to a country that doesn't extradite unless there is *0* chance of a death sentence happening.
02:46:47 <pikhq> (Mexico, Canada, and the EU are all like this)
02:47:04 <alise_> I didn't know that. That's nice of those countries.
02:47:45 <pikhq> Human rights laws mandate it.
02:48:27 <alise_> So... apparently [i.e., reddit IAmA credibility] the guy who designed the current American flag was a child abuser.
02:48:29 <uorygl> Michigan doesn't have death sentences. Unless you commit a crime in a national park or something.
02:48:34 <alise_> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/c0ua8/i_am_the_sister_of_a_man_who_was_sexually_abused/
02:48:35 <pikhq> Hey, the US has no extradition treaties with Taiwan, because *you can't have treaties with a country you don't recognise the existence of*.
02:48:45 <alise_> The US doesn't recognise the existence of Taiwan????
02:49:01 <pikhq> alise_: Recognising Taiwan and China are mutually exclusive.
02:49:15 <pikhq> As each claims the other's territory as their own.
02:49:19 <uorygl> So if I find some product that says "MADE IN TAIWAN", it's a lie?
02:49:22 <alise_> Are they? Just recognise China-sans-Taiwan and Taiwan-sans-China, and if the China don't like it, sucks to be them.
02:49:27 <alise_> i.e., only the relevant territories from both
02:50:05 <pikhq> China will not have *any* relations with any organization that recognises Taiwan as an independent state.
02:50:09 <alise_> What are they listed as being in whatever database the US as?
02:50:43 <pikhq> They are listed as Chinese Taipei, Taiwan, Formosa, the Republic of China, etc.
02:51:12 <uorygl> Does that mean China will not threaten them?
02:51:43 <pikhq> Like most countries, we go to *great* lengths to have informal relations with them while making it *perfectly* clear to the PRoC that we are merely having discussions with the rebels.
02:51:55 <pikhq> Not recognising their sovereignity.
02:52:05 <alise_> <uorygl> Does that mean China will not threaten them?
02:52:17 <alise_> You can't declare war against a country you don't recognise!
02:52:17 <pikhq> This includes the UN.
02:53:33 <oerjan> alise_: but they wouldn't consider it a war against another country
02:53:49 <oerjan> just an internal chinese matter
02:54:19 <alise_> if USA recognises Taiwain, then China does-not-recognise USA
02:54:23 <alise_> therefore China cannot-declare-war-on USA
02:54:49 <pikhq> Amusingly, the ROC treads carefully to *not* declare itself an independent state.
02:54:58 <pikhq> They claim the same borders they had in the 40s.
02:55:33 <oerjan> incidentally, both chinas are members of the world trade organization
02:56:08 <oerjan> so taiwan _does_ have mandated free trade with the US and many other countries
02:56:31 <pikhq> alise_: The US is required by law to defend Taiwan if the PRoC attacks.
02:56:32 <alise_> how can china be a member of WTO if WTO recognises Taiwain?
02:56:40 <alise_> that's against the axiom of China-Taiwain calculus
02:56:45 <pikhq> Because of this, we have a permanently deployed *fleet* around Taiwan.
02:56:54 <alise_> pikhq: Just... discussing. With the rebels.
02:57:00 <oerjan> alise_: they're technically not recognizing taiwan as a _country_, just a special region, i think
02:57:01 <alise_> Our army. Is discussing with the rebels. At their location.
02:57:21 <alise_> does the chinese government ever exercise any actual power in taiwain?
02:57:26 <alise_> can't think how they'd go about doing it
02:57:34 <pikhq> alise_: The WTO deals with *trading entities*. Not countries. :P
02:57:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:58:06 <pikhq> And the PROC government maintains no power over the Taiwan. Just the ROC.
02:58:36 <oerjan> alise_: on the reverse side, greenland and the færøyer are not part of the EU, despite being part of the kingdom of denmark
02:59:07 <oerjan> i wasn't even going to try to remember the english spelling.
02:59:21 <alise_> heh like that's easier
02:59:26 <pikhq> oerjan: The EU treaties generally don't apply to out-of-Europe holdings of member countries.
02:59:45 <pikhq> Also, aren't those considered seperate countries which *happen* to be also part of the Kingdom of Denmark?
02:59:57 <pikhq> Kinda like how Australia, Canada, and the UK all have the same Queen?
02:59:58 <oerjan> pikhq: færøyene are in europe, most definitely, and i think greenland was in EU, then voted to secede
03:00:10 <alise_> [[Polish pop star faces two years' prison for blasphemy; made negative statement about the Bible in TV interview.]]
03:00:31 <oerjan> they do have some free trade agreement though
03:01:19 <alise_> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c1je9/polish_pop_star_faces_two_years_prison_for/ ;; oh
03:01:47 <pikhq> Taiwan's membership in the WTO is as the "Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kimmen and Matsu".
03:02:29 <oerjan> pikhq: they may be considered so _now_, but i'm not sure they were so at the time denmark joined the EU
03:02:44 <alise_> Romething is sotten in the state of Mendark.
03:02:53 <oerjan> greenland got a greater autonomy agreement just last year (or was it this winter?)
03:02:58 <alise_> ((I hear it's country matters))
03:03:58 * pikhq notes that Shakespeare must have been a great fan of puns
03:05:26 <oerjan> alise_: there have been debates about removing norway's blasphemy law recently (i'm not even sure if it's been repealed or not, but i _think_ not). it's been a sleeping law for half a century, though.
03:05:43 <alise_> pikhq: "country matters" is hardly a pun!
03:05:56 <alise_> More like pretty darn close to an outright uttering of a pretty serious expletive :-)
03:05:57 <pikhq> alise_: Cunt-ry matters.
03:06:38 <pikhq> I find it completely bizzare that the ROC *can't* change the regions that it claims.
03:06:46 <alise_> (Incidentally in the Royal Shakespeare Company production with David Tennant and Patrick Stewart that was broadcast on BBC2 on Boxing Day (-- 3 hours without interruptions, sheesh --) Tennant basically pronounces it exactly as "cuntrrrrry matters".)
03:07:06 <alise_> (Which, you know, sort of offended my innate British sensibilities. How dare they put this filth on the BBC? :P)
03:07:18 <pikhq> It they reduced their claims to just the area they control, the PROC will consider this a declaration of independence and go to war.
03:07:33 * oerjan wonders if ROC claims tibet or not
03:07:52 <pikhq> Note that the *PROC* is the government that should be declaring independence: they're the bastards who revolted against the ROC!
03:08:16 <pikhq> oerjan: Because they did in the 40s, and to not claim it would cause war.
03:08:21 <uorygl> Heh, Norway has a blasphemy law?
03:09:07 <oerjan> uorygl: well a blasphemy paragraph in a law (the law of punishment, probably)
03:09:11 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.png
03:09:56 <uorygl> Whoa, Finland has a blasphemy law, and they actually use it.
03:10:00 <oerjan> pikhq: i wasn't sure when china started claiming tibet, they only invaded in the 50s didn't they, but i guess they only consider tibet's former independence a temporary lapse...
03:10:01 <alise_> lol the ROC just claims everything
03:10:12 <alise_> there should be a country that just claims the entire world
03:10:23 <pikhq> Sealand should do it.
03:10:26 <oerjan> and so "always" claimed it
03:10:27 <uorygl> I'm sure many nomics do that.
03:10:43 <alise_> In Finland, section 10 of chapter 17 of the penal code relate to blasphemy.[10][11] Unsuccessful attempts were made to rescind the section in 1914, 1917, 1965, 1970, and 1998.[12]
03:10:43 <alise_> In 1969, Finland prosecuted Harro Koskinen for publishing a picture of his painting called Pig Messiah, which featured a crucified pig. For violating the sensibilities of a religion, Koskinen had to pay a fine.[13][14]
03:10:44 <alise_> In 2008, the issue of religious sensibilities arose again. On 30 May 2008, Tampere District Court sentenced Seppo Lehto to two years and four months imprisonment for offences which involve hate speech and blasphemy. The court found Lehto guilty of: defamation, incitement of an ethnic group, and violating the sensibilities of a religion. The judgment said that Lehto had violated the sensibilities of Islam because he had disseminated, with insulting intentions
03:10:45 <alise_> , material which openly blasphemes and desecrates that which Muslims deem holy.[14] Outraged at the punishment of Lehto, Jussi Halla-aho, a Helsinki councilman, posted to the Internet in 2008 some controversial remarks about Islam and about Somalis. Those remarks induced the Helsinki District Court to order Halla-aho to trial.[15]
03:10:48 <pikhq> *North Korea* should do it.
03:11:13 <pikhq> "We declare war on everyone else! MWAHAHAHAH!"
03:11:28 <uorygl> I think I did that in Civilization IV once.
03:11:45 <uorygl> I don't remember what happened afterward; I think I got bored and quit.
03:12:50 <alise_> New Canada said that the only true Canadas are Old Canada and New Canada, and that all other entities using that name are misguided.
03:13:01 <alise_> (New Canada was the barely-played-at-all successor to Canada.)
03:13:04 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CountriesRecognizingROC.png Such a headache.
03:13:24 <uorygl> I don't really remember Old and New Canada.
03:13:36 <alise_> Old Canada was IRCNomic, which was a right fun time apart from that UPPERCASE bullshit.
03:13:42 <alise_> And, well, everything else AnMaster did.
03:13:57 <alise_> New Canada I believe you played for perhaps three posts, maybe 1.5 serious.
03:14:07 <oerjan> pikhq: um, what's the legend on that?
03:14:57 <alise_> strong green = embassy
03:14:59 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China
03:16:44 <pikhq> Strong green = embassy, light green = "just talking with the rebels, friend PROC."
03:16:58 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC
03:17:17 <oerjan> that legend claims light green = diplomatic relations but not embassy
03:17:24 <oerjan> presumably consulates?
03:17:30 <pikhq> Unofficial diplomatic relations.
03:17:42 <pikhq> Things like the "American Institute in Taiwan".
03:18:08 <pikhq> Which is itself a *massive* clusterfuck.
03:18:36 <pikhq> The American Institute is a US corporation, wholy owned by the US government, and staffed by federal employees.
03:19:23 <pikhq> Like I said, *great* lengths to claim we're just "talking with the rebels".
03:19:54 <alise_> Let's just buy out China, Zimbabwe and North Korea.
03:20:14 <uorygl> China sounds really expensive.
03:20:18 <uorygl> Really, really expensive.
03:20:25 <uorygl> Like, the most expensive single object in the world.
03:20:30 <uorygl> Except it's *multiple objects*.
03:20:57 <alise_> uorygl: Underneath China there is an inscription in the earth: "MADE IN CHINA"
03:21:15 <alise_> So it's probably cheap tat.
03:21:26 <oerjan> the wall of china is basically the edge of the M
03:21:32 <uorygl> Just like the inscription on the International Space Station.
03:21:33 <oerjan> the only part that shows
03:21:51 <uorygl> And the inscription on me that says "Made in the U.S.A.".
03:22:30 <alise_> Say, what laws apply on the ISS?
03:22:49 <uorygl> I'd say each person is bound by the laws of whatever country they're from.
03:23:06 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/ISS_26.07.07.jpg which part is the ISS?
03:23:12 <pikhq> alise_: I think we actually *could* buy out North Korea quite feasibly.
03:23:34 -!- augur has joined.
03:23:40 <oerjan> pikhq: except north korea would bail out of the agreement, _after_ taking the money
03:24:18 <uorygl> Gee, I don't remember the ISS looking quite so acular.
03:24:22 <alise_> (with a really big gun)
03:24:35 <alise_> I don't think the line is meant to be the ISS
03:24:35 <augur> WHATS THIS ABOUT LINGUISTICS?
03:24:41 <alise_> that would be ridiculous, surely
03:24:41 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
03:24:41 <HackEgo> * ketorolac tromethamine: nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (trade names Acular and Toradol) that is administered only intramuscularly \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \
03:24:48 <alise_> I think uorygl just made up "acular"
03:24:53 <pikhq> alise_: The ISS is under *very confusing* jurisdiction.
03:24:53 <uorygl> Yes, I'm afraid I did.
03:25:01 <uorygl> However, someone who knows enough Latin will surely know what it means.
03:25:06 <uorygl> You might go ask in ##latin.
03:25:08 <alise_> pikhq: Orally? (O'Rly)
03:25:29 <uorygl> Anyway, as for the ISS, we should ask an astronaut.
03:26:05 <uorygl> Who should we ask? Mike? Jeff?
03:26:08 <alise_> it would be fun if countries were on this stonkin' great big global country-stock market
03:26:09 <oerjan> maybe they're an anarchosyndicalist commune.
03:26:16 <alise_> and you could buy out countries and stuff
03:26:27 <alise_> /and/ they live in zero gravity, too
03:26:36 <pikhq> "each partner shall retain jurisdiction and control over the elements it registers and over personnel in or on the Space Station who are its nationals."
03:27:17 <pikhq> So... The *modules* are under the jurisdiction of whoever made them, but the *astronauts* are under the jurisdiction of their country of origin.
03:27:55 <pikhq> Which means food can change jurisdiction by being eaten.
03:28:09 <uorygl> It would be a lot easier to just have a bunch of National Space Stations.
03:28:17 <alise_> What jurisdiction is the resulting feces?
03:28:31 <alise_> uorygl: Or just make it an anarchosyndicalist commune.
03:28:40 <pikhq> uorygl: Or just make it an *independent nation*.
03:28:49 <uorygl> But each National Space Station would be staffed by approximately half a person.
03:29:10 * uorygl goes to howmanypeopleareinspacerightnow.com to see how many people are in space right now.
03:29:15 <alise_> Call the nation Space; define it to include everything except Earth.
03:29:30 <pikhq> We are at war with Space.
03:29:34 <alise_> This has the interesting consequence that Earth is not in Space.
03:29:46 <uorygl> Six. And there are five space agencies contributing to it?
03:29:52 <uorygl> Each National Space Station would get 1.2 staff members.
03:30:06 <uorygl> Earth would be an enclave of Space, though.
03:30:09 <pikhq> uorygl: One such space agency is the ESA.
03:30:20 <alise_> pikhq: I wonder what diplomatic relationships with Space would look like.
03:30:23 <HackEgo> * metal or plastic sheath over the end of a shoelace or ribbon \ * ornamental tagged cord or braid on the shoulder of a uniform \ [14]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
03:30:33 <alise_> Would it recognise Taiwan or China???
03:30:43 <pikhq> Yes, this means some modules are under 11 nation's jurisdiction simultaneously.
03:30:57 <oerjan> apparently aculus means aglet, metal tag, so acular would mean looking like a metal tag, presumably
03:31:01 <uorygl> Space would not allow people to recognize China as an independent nation.
03:31:23 <uorygl> By 'acular', I meant 'needle-shaped'.
03:31:23 <alise_> What's Space's GDP????
03:32:22 <uorygl> Well, I know what its GNP is. Zero; nobody is a citizen of outer space.
03:32:47 <uorygl> You know, a lot easier than making Space an independent nation would be making the ocean an independent nation.
03:32:51 <uorygl> The United States of The Ocean.
03:33:20 <alise_> That would be awesome.
03:33:42 <alise_> In fact, define the Ocean to include most of Space, too, under that whatsitsname doctrine down to hell and up to heaven property law thing.
03:34:07 <alise_> So basically, start at any point in the ocean, and travel outwards. Every point travelled to by this procedure is part of the Ocean.
03:34:19 <uorygl> The thing is, though, Earth rotates.
03:34:45 <alise_> Then what's part of the Ocean changes as that happens.
03:35:38 <alise_> Eh. The plates move too, and stuff.
03:35:42 <alise_> Although a little bit slower.
03:35:47 <pikhq> Man, whole galaxies shift jurisdiction daily.
03:36:30 <alise_> Now define everything not in the Ocean to be part of the nation Outer Space.
03:36:34 <alise_> Outer because it's outside of the Ocean.
03:36:38 <uorygl> That must be confusing for people living in those galaxies.
03:37:00 <oerjan> uorygl: especially since they won't be told for millions of years
03:37:14 <alise_> One of the two recognises Taiwan; the other recognises China. Since which parts of space recognise who changes quite a lot, due to changing jurisdiction, just schedule your diplomatic meetings correctly and a landmass can have full relations with both.
03:37:17 <uorygl> "Let's see. It's 4:20 PM; that means we're currently in a nation where it's legal to smoke pot."
03:37:59 <alise_> I always thought it was 4:20 am.
03:38:17 <uorygl> That's the *other* nation where it's legal to smoke pot.
03:38:18 <alise_> I guess I couldn't imagine stoners being up at such a normal hour as 4:20 pm.
03:39:14 <alise_> Anyway, smoking pot is legal in both the Ocean and Outer Space.
03:42:22 <coppro> alise_: are there any^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwhat's the best weighted graph module in Haskell?
03:43:04 <alise_> Something in http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html
03:43:18 <alise_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/fgl, http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html#Graphs
03:43:28 <alise_> apart from that, dunno
03:43:59 <alise_> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.1/html/libraries/containers-0.3.0.0/Data-Graph.html
03:45:26 <coppro> Data.Graph is unweighted
03:45:27 <alise_> If you don't all talk about CASulator I'm going to be very sad.
03:45:34 <alise_> coppro: I gave you two other links.
03:45:43 <coppro> I'm going through them one by one
03:45:46 <alise_> Ctrl+F "graph" gave tons of links on the pkg-list; not sure how many are relevant.
03:46:32 <coppro> irritating; so is the fgl
03:47:36 <Sgeo> This is what a classmate I'm trying to help copied off the blackboard. I can;t make much sense of it: http://pastie.org/private/afxzkbjoimumy3q4tk4kw
03:48:09 <alise_> coppro: Just write your own?
03:48:12 <alise_> It's easy in Haskell...
03:48:24 <alise_> Sgeo: they have a broken mind. Ignore them
03:48:27 <alise_> coppro: easier to write than find
03:48:35 <coppro> what sort of programmer would I be if I wasn't?
03:48:49 <alise_> just keep changing the data structure to be more general and abstract until the functions on them are so trivial they're barely even worth being called functions
03:48:53 <alise_> then you will have reached the epitome of laziness
03:48:59 <Sgeo> alise_, he swears that this is what was on the board
03:49:10 <coppro> and they should all be point-free, right ;)
03:49:19 <alise_> because all you do is write down the most trivial naive definition you can think of, write down the obvious operations, then repeatedly apply "strip data constructors and add type parameters"
03:49:33 <alise_> just like "oh it really did say Error 43.4" no it said 455.3
03:49:43 <Sgeo> alise_, or maybe the teacher's insane?
03:49:54 <alise_> more likely people are idiots
03:51:24 <alise_> I should really make a nice little editor sometime.
03:56:36 <alise_> Hey, I don't think anyone has named an editor iv or x yet. :-)
04:06:21 -!- adu has joined.
04:08:25 -!- soupdragon has joined.
04:09:05 <alise_> soupdragon: whoa the name is back
04:11:08 <soupdragon> http://www.ted.com/talks/ray_kurzweil_on_how_technology_will_transform_us.html
04:11:17 <adu> why is the topic backwards?
04:11:44 <soupdragon> When he mentions the human genome project -- just listen it's brilliant
04:11:59 <oerjan> adu: unicode right-to-left marker, i think
04:13:24 <adu> oh, so are you saying my client doesn't recognize it?
04:13:32 <Sgeo> adu, actually, it does
04:14:02 <oerjan> no _my_ client doesn't recognize it. i found out from the logs.
04:14:17 <adu> oh, so without the R2L marker, the topic would look right?
04:14:38 <adu> then why not remove the R2L marker?
04:15:15 <oerjan> it's a free channel. i cannot _type_ unicode either.
04:15:53 <Sgeo> adu, try selecting the topic
04:16:01 <oerjan> just as long as you keep the log link
04:17:27 <adu> this is what I get for the hexdump: http://pastebin.com/7mm1p5Q1
04:17:57 <adu> what is "E2 80 AE"?
04:18:41 <oerjan> i don't know, but the topic should be in UTF-8 encoding
04:19:28 <adu> E280AE = \u202E = right-to-left override
04:21:06 -!- adu has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:21:39 <adu> that's better
04:22:23 <adu> does it look the same on your client?
04:24:04 <adu> here's the new hexdump: http://pastebin.com/xLsrUVYV
04:24:39 <adu> o BTW, i love ted talks
04:26:14 <pikhq> adu: Looks *exactly* the same in my client.
04:26:32 <adu> ok, then your client doesn't recognize R2L overrides
04:26:44 <adu> it looks much better in my client
04:26:59 <pikhq> Indeed, my terminal does not.
04:27:28 <pikhq> Some "unicode terminal".
04:27:40 <soupdragon> http://www.ted.com/talks/ray_kurzweil_announces_singularity_university.html
04:27:46 <soupdragon> that is the one I should have linked earlier
04:27:51 <alise_> Kurzweil is a crackpot, be careful.
04:28:13 <alise_> Especially how he keeps reprinting his book, setting forward his failed predictions a few years, but strangely somehow always within his expected lifetime...
04:28:33 <alise_> He's clever, yes. But he's not someone you want to go to for a balanced, sane look at the singularity or related topics.
04:29:44 <soupdragon> listen to what he says about the human genome project, that is something I had been wondering about myself for a long time
04:29:49 <adu> the first thing I saw when i came in here was ".scipot ym ni edocinU evol I"
04:29:58 <alise_> http://fakescience.tumblr.com/
04:30:05 <alise_> soupdragon: no Flash or speakers, sorry.
04:30:51 <alise_> "The coffee bean has a distinctive smell that makes you forget how painful it is to be awake."
04:31:30 <alise_> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kz8edy2JuW1qb25dg.jpg
04:31:54 <alise_> hahahah http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kyz1ogCofV1qb25dg.jpg
04:33:31 <soupdragon> alise_, try this http://math.etsu.edu/LaTeXMathML/
04:33:48 <alise_> yes i saw that in use on your blog, downside:
04:34:01 <alise_> the results are pretty ugly, formatting-wise, using the css, compared to e.g. jsmath
04:35:06 <alise_> soupdragon: jsmath is "obsoleted" by mathjax, but mathjax is uglier on this ubuntu box (prettier on os x and stuff)
04:35:37 <alise_> jsmath is like 200 kb + 3.2 mb for sprite fonts or 7.9 mb for image fonts.
04:35:41 <alise_> where do you get 80mb from
04:35:59 <alise_> also if you use unicode fonts or tex-fonts-on-user's-computer
04:36:05 <alise_> soupdragon: link to the relevant page plz
04:36:42 <soupdragon> mathjax is pretty but I am worried about the -jax bit
04:36:49 <alise_> it's not actually ajax
04:36:52 <alise_> it's just jsmath souped up a bit
04:36:53 <soupdragon> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath.html
04:37:01 <alise_> -- but mathjax output is really ugly on linux for some reason!
04:37:21 <alise_> "On a system with a 4K minimum file size"
04:37:26 <coppro> heh... my experiences with vim are funny
04:37:28 <alise_> the sprite fonts won't do that
04:37:32 <alise_> since they're all in one big images
04:37:37 <alise_> only disadvantage, doesn't work with older browsers
04:37:41 <coppro> half the time when I try to type something, I end up just fiddling with keys until I accidentally enter insert mode
04:37:52 <alise_> soupdragon: yeah ok the ones on their official website show the ugly, sec
04:38:05 <alise_> http://www.mathjax.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Ubuntu_8.10_Firefox_3.0.6_1280x960_snapshot.png
04:38:09 <alise_> it's just blurry basically
04:38:33 <alise_> soupdragon: but: mathjax is basically just jsmath with css font embedding stuff
04:38:43 <alise_> I'd just use jsmath with sprite fonts tbh
04:39:10 <alise_> the 80mb is for image fonts because of minimum file size stuff
04:39:12 <alise_> sprite fonts are only a few megs
04:39:28 <alise_> also, the /user/ never downloads 80mb; nor do you
04:39:32 <alise_> it's just due to minimum-file-size on filesystems
04:39:38 <alise_> but seriously, just use sprite fonts
04:39:44 <alise_> nobody cares about old browsers :P
04:39:47 <alise_> i mean you certainly don't, using mathml
04:40:25 <alise_> and jsmath output looks impeccable ofc, since with sprite fonts/native tex fonts it's pixel-for-pixel like tex output
04:40:56 <soupdragon> hmm so you are saying that jsmath is best?
04:41:31 <pikhq> What's best is taking over the world.
04:42:23 <adu> what are we doing today pinky?
04:43:12 <alise_> when mathjax matures it will probably be better
04:43:30 <alise_> jsmath+sprite fonts has had a lot of time to mature, and it renders pretty much anything you throw at it well
04:44:03 <alise_> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/jsMath-lab.html
04:44:18 <alise_> lets you play around with jsmath typesetting
04:44:30 <alise_> leave it as use images for symbols mostly since that's what ~everyone (who doesn't have native tex fonts) will see
04:45:25 <oerjan> <alise_> http://fakescience.tumblr.com/ <-- i am _sure_ the sneezing one has to be true </grumble>
04:45:34 <alise_> soupdragon: although i'd change it to image fonts for everything, not just symbols
04:46:41 <alise_> soupdragon: I believe that the /ideal/ solution is probably something like jsMath with native TeX fonts enabled, and a CSS @font-face to load the computer modern font from the site
04:47:04 <alise_> that way it'd be the best possible output for everyone, and totally scalable
04:47:07 <soupdragon> I want something like this for a program editor
04:47:10 <alise_> ...in fact I think you could do it!
04:47:22 <alise_> if you just add the @font-face and force-override jsMath into native TeX fonts it should work!
04:47:29 <soupdragon> just using lower_case, titleCase and SCREAMCASE is not enough
04:48:03 <soupdragon> Things like mathbb, mathcal - are essential in program code, but for some reason missing
04:49:07 <oerjan> data UlTrAcAmElCaSe uLtRaCaMeLcAsE = UlTrAcAmElCaSe uLtRaCaMeLcAsE | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
04:49:09 <coppro> i BeLiEvE tHe TeRm Is ChAoScAsE 9NoT rEaLlY0
04:50:40 <alise_> soupdragon: oh I'm not sure but I think you also need to get e.g. the blackboard bold font from http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html don't quote me on this though
04:50:42 <Sgeo> Wow, a 2 hour 46min phone call
04:52:39 <oerjan> !adduserinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = interact $ concat . zipWith ($) (cycle [toLower, toUpper])
04:52:52 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
04:52:58 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for userinterp!
04:53:01 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
04:53:11 <oerjan> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = interact $ concat . zipWith ($) (cycle [toLower, toUpper])
04:53:11 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
04:53:27 <Sgeo> According to Reddit, non CS/Software Engineering degrees are worthless
04:53:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
04:54:22 <oerjan> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = interact $ zipWith ($) (cycle [toLower, toUpper])
04:54:23 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
04:55:25 * Sgeo would seriously not think of that
04:55:27 <oerjan> !chaos test 1, 2, 3, end test.
04:55:30 <EgoBot> tEsT 1, 2, 3, eNd tEsT.
04:55:40 <Sgeo> The code you wrote
04:55:45 <Sgeo> If I wanted to get the result you got
04:56:22 <alise_> CASulator! Guys? Anyone? No?
04:56:31 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
04:56:33 <Sgeo> alise_, I might buy one
04:56:53 <coppro> oerjan: hold yer horses
04:56:54 <alise_> coppro: anarchy and chaos
04:56:56 <oerjan> YOU BETTER MAKE A BETTER ONE
04:57:28 <alise_> SOLVE FOR RECURSIVE FOMRULA f(x)==:f(x)
04:58:18 <Sgeo> It's midnight and I haven't had dinner
04:58:29 <alise_> It's 4:58 am and I haven't got to bed.
04:59:34 <alise_> soupdragon: btw with native tex fonts installed and jsmath i get /exceptionally/ good rendering
04:59:50 <oerjan> coppro: are you making something or not?
05:00:06 <coppro> I'm just forgetting my one-liner syntax
05:00:43 <alise_> soupdragon: two nice screenshots: http://imgur.com/1Dnsz.png; http://imgur.com/tgYHE.png
05:00:52 <alise_> all I did was press ctrl-+ and it scaled up the fonts for me
05:01:01 <alise_> ofc I had to install the tex fonts
05:01:10 <alise_> soupdragon: i think that's the fault of whoever wrote that page
05:01:18 <alise_> stuff like that certainly doesn't normally happen
05:01:22 <alise_> anyway, all of that is using native fonts, not images
05:01:25 <alise_> so it's really fast and scales
05:01:27 * Sgeo continues his unending quest of Android knowledge
05:01:30 <alise_> I think it would even print properly
05:01:39 <alise_> most people will use the sprite fonts ofc since they don't have to do anything, but still
05:02:10 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = stdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:02:10 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:02:32 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:02:47 <soupdragon> "You only need to downlaod ONE of the archives. " -- yes which one?
05:03:07 <oerjan> coppro: getStdRandom, or something like that
05:03:09 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = stdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:03:09 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:03:11 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:03:15 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = stdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:03:16 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:03:28 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:03:41 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = getStdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:03:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:03:46 <oerjan> !haskell :t Data.Random.stdGen
05:04:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:05:08 <alise_> soupdragon: the split in the brackets and stuff seems to be a glitch in my browser/whatever
05:05:35 <oerjan> or randomRIO if you want a range
05:05:40 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = randomIO >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:05:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:06:13 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:06:16 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = randomIO >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n $ cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:06:16 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:06:49 <coppro> how come EgoBot chats with DCC rather than PM
05:07:06 <soupdragon> !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; print (a ++ a)
05:07:07 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome installed.
05:07:12 <oerjan> coppro: it may be just generating too large n
05:07:20 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:07:36 <coppro> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = randomRIO (0, 1) >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n $ cycle [toLower, toUpper]))
05:07:37 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:07:37 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome deleted.
05:07:38 <soupdragon> !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; print (a ++ a)
05:07:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome installed.
05:07:53 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome deleted.
05:08:04 <pikhq> *Wow* it screws with Japanese.
05:08:04 <soupdragon> !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; putStrLn (a ++ reverse a)
05:08:05 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome installed.
05:08:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome deleted.
05:08:08 <soupdragon> !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; putStrLn (a ++ reverse a)
05:08:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter drome installed.
05:08:16 <pikhq> What is the source on toLower and toUpper, anyways?
05:08:18 <oerjan> pikhq: it doesn't understand UTF-8
05:08:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, right.
05:08:41 <oerjan> pikhq: it's an IO problem, until last version or so ghc did text input in latin-1
05:08:49 <EgoBot> I roamed under it assa ti rednu demaor I
05:08:49 <pikhq> Actual proper UTF-8 handling was added in 6.12.
05:08:59 <EgoBot> iroamedunderitassatirednudemaori
05:09:06 <pikhq> Rather than "merely not breaking it most of the time".
05:09:24 <EgoBot> amanaplanaccanalpanama
05:09:42 <oerjan> coppro: DCC is better for large files, some of the commands give you program source and stuff
05:10:29 <alise_> I MUST SLEEP! 5:10 am! Soon!
05:10:34 <alise_> Argh! You fucking idiot!
05:10:56 <alise_> soupdragon: ah you are up too
05:10:59 <alise_> that makes me feel better about things
05:11:11 <alise_> [[most likely this was done automatically by our spam filtering program. the program is still learning, and may even have some bugs, so if you feel the ban was a mistake, please send a message to our site admins and be sure to include the exact name of the reddit.]]
05:11:18 <alise_> sorry for making a subreddit called jsmath to try and see if i can make it work.
05:11:22 <soupdragon> I think I would like to write up a mathematical note in jsmath
05:11:42 <coppro> so after all this, my graph module in Haskell is doing fanstastic
05:12:07 <coppro> the module declaration and a newtype
05:13:22 <alise_> replacing newtypes with types is often a good idea
05:13:25 <alise_> less cruft in using them
05:13:29 <oerjan> purely functional graphs are hard to do right, i hear
05:13:51 <alise_> because you don't have to do
05:13:56 <alise_> process (Foo x) = Foo (...)
05:14:04 <alise_> and you can write more point-free, compact definitions
05:14:34 <coppro> am happy I decided to start learning it
05:14:48 <alise_> soupdragon: irc needs tex support
05:15:01 <soupdragon> I can probably hack jsmath into this client
05:16:07 <alise_> I'd love to be able to write in proper notation rather than hackneyed ASCII crud :)
05:16:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:16:59 <soupdragon> actually it's not a dilemma it's just a problem I don't know how to solve
05:17:12 <soupdragon> I suppose I could use an algebra system
05:17:21 <alise_> btw you can get a latex plugin for pidgin
05:17:22 <coppro> alise_: we should design a CTCP extension for TeX mathmode
05:17:35 <alise_> coppro: easier just to replace in e.g. \(...\)
05:19:26 <oerjan> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import System.Random; main = interact =<< zipWith ($) . map ([toLower,toUpper]!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< getStdGen
05:19:27 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:20:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:20:34 <oerjan> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import System.Random; main = interact . zipWith ($) . map ([toLower,toUpper]!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< getStdGen
05:20:34 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:21:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos deleted.
05:22:05 <oerjan> !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import System.Random; main = interact . zipWith ([toLower,toUpper]!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< getStdGen
05:22:05 <EgoBot> Interpreter chaos installed.
05:23:54 <coppro> oh, right, partial application
05:25:15 <alise_> soupdragon: why aren't you in bed anyway
05:25:32 <soupdragon> too many problems though, it didn't work
05:27:24 <oerjan> it's only when you think zero is too many you have a real problem
05:28:35 <alise_> In September, 2007, the so-called "monkey tree phenomenon" caused a minor social mania in Singapore. A callus on a tree resembled a monkey, and believers flocked to the tree to pay homage to the Monkey God.[3]
05:32:21 <alise_> soupdragon: go to sleep so that i can :|
05:35:11 <alise_> soupdragon: stop torturing me, you're feeding my stupid justification of sleep-deprival by being awake
05:35:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:36:27 <pikhq> alise_: Sleep is for mortals.
05:36:55 <alise_> besides i still have the internet
05:36:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:37:05 <pikhq> I would never have suspected you of being mortal!
05:37:20 <pikhq> I suppose next you'll tell me oerjan is Norwegian!
05:37:34 <oerjan> i suspect alise_ of having a goal to become immortal
05:37:43 <alise_> ffffffff not if it doesn't come with sleep
05:37:47 <oerjan> all that singularity stuff, you know
05:37:55 <oerjan> pikhq: there are rumors
05:38:00 <alise_> soupdragon: whyyy whyyyy
05:39:47 <soupdragon> it must have ended up in the trash somehow
05:39:59 <alise_> soupdragon: WHAT ARE YOU DOING HOW ARE YOU STILL AWAKE
05:41:30 <alise_> soupdragon: no seriouslyi want to know
05:41:51 <soupdragon> I'm going to write something up using jsmath
05:42:10 <alise_> soupdragon: you do realise i NEED to sleep
05:42:39 <pikhq> alise_: If you have biological needs, you should fulfill them.
05:42:55 <pikhq> To do otherwise is either folly or extreme determination.
05:42:58 <alise_> pikhq: CAN'T AGE OF CONSENT LOL okay cheesy joke out of the way, yes but I have a mental need to be a complete fucking idiot
05:43:04 <pikhq> Depending on the scenario.
05:43:04 <alise_> I /cannot make myself sleep/
05:43:07 <soupdragon> alise_: (x-t1)*(x-t2)=t^2-s1*t+s2 with s1 = t1 + t2, s2 = t1*t2
05:43:12 <alise_> soupdragon: NO NO NO DIE
05:43:25 <pikhq> alise_: Think you could talk to someone about that?
05:43:30 <pikhq> Like, at the unit?
05:43:35 <alise_> haha no it is not important :|
05:43:54 <pikhq> alise_: I do not demand that you make yourself sleep.
05:43:56 <soupdragon> can I continue or are you going to continue making a fuss?
05:44:02 <pikhq> However, you should turn off your computer.
05:44:11 <pikhq> ... And your iPhone.
05:44:28 <pikhq> alise_: And then turn off the light.
05:44:32 <pikhq> And stare at the ceiling all night long.
05:44:44 <pikhq> I have a sneaking suspicion you will fail in this task, and end up sleeping instead.
05:45:10 <alise_> The light shines in from outside.
05:45:18 <alise_> People are probably up, some people at least; it is morning, and I am fucking tired.
05:45:29 <alise_> Say I had a button on my desk right now
05:45:38 <alise_> I press it, and my computer is off, and I'm in bed
05:46:05 <alise_> fucking irrational mind
05:46:08 <soupdragon> <SCRIPT SRC="../plugins/noImageFonts.js"></SCRIPT>
05:46:17 <soupdragon> what the heck, why is this not in the <HEAD>?
05:46:29 <pikhq> See, what you should do, then, is develop a strong interest in the pattern of your ceiling.
05:46:35 <soupdragon> <SCRIPT SRC="../easy/load.js"></SCRIPT>
05:46:49 <alise_> soupdragon: if it's in the head
05:46:53 <alise_> the page doesn't appear until it's loaded
05:46:58 <alise_> yes html is retarded, deal with it and put it in body
05:47:11 <alise_> pikhq: What. On my computer seat?
05:47:27 <pikhq> alise_: No, lay in bed.
05:47:42 <alise_> But that involves shutting down the computer, getting into bed, and so many other things.
05:47:54 <pikhq> Get your fucking ass in bed and enjoy the comfort thereof.
05:48:19 <pikhq> I don't care if you go there with the intent to sleep, *surely* you've been sitting sufficiently long that either standing or laying down would feel pretty good by now.
05:48:38 <pikhq> (though, I suspect, as it is $fucking_early there, you will doze off quickly)
05:49:11 <alise_> i'm sorry, my brain isn't listening to you
05:49:14 <alise_> also it's light, i can't sleep in daylight
05:49:24 <alise_> [[Here are the color names most disproportionately popular among women:
05:49:27 <alise_> Okay, pretty flowery, certainly. Kind of an incense-bomb-set-off-in-a-Bed-Bath-&-Beyond vibe. Well, lets take a look at the other list.
05:49:30 <alise_> Here are the color names most disproportionately popular among men:
05:49:36 <soupdragon> man, I have no idea how to make this note
05:50:12 <coppro> f . g) b = f (g b) = (a->b) ->
05:50:18 <coppro> did NOT mean to type that
05:50:20 <alise_> pikhq: please kill soupdragon
05:50:24 <pikhq> alise_: Believe me, when you are tired enough you can sleep in the daylight.
05:50:30 <alise_> I'm not that tired yet
05:50:34 <alise_> also now kill soupdragon
05:50:40 <pikhq> But the computer is obviously not helping.
05:51:24 <pikhq> Also, seriously: have you considered talking to someone about this?
05:51:24 <alise_> http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/misc_answers.png
05:51:32 <alise_> "i am now colour blind by choice. i can no longer see green."
05:51:35 <coppro> how do you refer to an operator literally in Haskell again?
05:51:45 <pikhq> This is probably a bit of a bad sleeping disorder, or some *really* low will-power.
05:51:56 <soupdragon> alise_, I need some sort of cheatsheet for jsmath
05:51:58 <alise_> pikhq: No, not really. I'm a teenager, we hate going to sleep and we love sleep. I am a geek with pathetically bad self-control and a severe internet addiction.
05:52:01 <alise_> soupdragon: it's just latex
05:52:12 <alise_> soupdragon: what parts
05:52:20 <alise_> pikhq: I've considered taking melatonin supplements per advice from Less Wrong
05:52:57 <pikhq> alise_: Not that I'm one to talk.
05:53:13 <pikhq> I mean, I have had weeks where I went to bed at 5...
05:53:23 <alise_> \begin{align*} and shit like that i guess you mean
05:53:42 <alise_> with \\ after each lign
05:53:56 <coppro> I like the bit about fuchsia
05:53:59 <pikhq> I really should've disambiguated that. 5AM is much easier to pull off.
05:54:04 <alise_> pikhq: both i and ais523 have been on the sleep from 8pm--4am schedule before
05:54:13 <pikhq> Though it makes classes a real bitch.
05:54:40 <alise_> I'm going to cry :| why do i have to have another sleep-deprived sunday, this never happens friday night
05:54:47 <alise_> i just have some sort of gene that refuses to sleep sat. night
05:54:48 <pikhq> alise_: I've hit an 8pm--4am schedule once. By having my sleep schedule push *forward* a bunch each day.
05:55:09 <alise_> seriously: i am going to get melatonin supplements for, like, next week.
05:55:31 <oerjan> alise_: let me guess, your brain is being geared up by using the computer a lot for the first time in almost a week?
05:55:47 <alise_> oerjan: that's a nice theory, but this sort of shit happened to me before the unit
05:56:00 <alise_> you know freerunner schedule, "be awake until you get tired and know you can sleep, then sleep?"
05:56:06 <alise_> I was on extreme freerunner
05:56:17 <pikhq> Ah, the freerunner schedule...
05:56:30 <soupdragon> alise_, http://i.imgur.com/noDzH.png this is pathetic :/
05:56:31 <alise_> "be awake until you're so incoherent that you are not capable of logical thought for more than .5s blips, then stumble to bed and sleep for 12 hours"
05:56:43 <alise_> soupdragon: hmm what did you type for that
05:56:47 <soupdragon> $$ = x^3 - (t_1 + t_2 + t_3) x^2 + (t_1 t_2 + t_1 t_3 + t_2 t_3) x - t_1 t_2 t_3 $$
05:57:19 <oerjan> soupdragon: there is no alignment between consecutive $$ or \[ blocks afaik
05:57:25 <alise_> & (x-t_1)(x-t_2)(x-t_3) \\
05:57:25 <alise_> =& x^3 - (t_1 + t_2 + t_3) x^2 + (t_1 t_2 + t_1 t_3 + t_2 t_3) x - t_1 t_2 t_3
05:57:36 <oerjan> you need to put it in some kind of environment for lining things up
05:57:43 <alise_> pikhq: I guess I may have a sleeping disorder; but I sleep fine, it's just getting to bed.
05:58:20 <pikhq> alise_: Actually. Given that you are a teenager, you most certainly do have one. It's called "being a teenager".
05:58:45 <alise_> soupdragon: I said that earlier you know :-)
05:58:53 <alise_> align* is pretty much the go-to for any alignment job in latex
05:59:22 <alise_> pikhq: yes, but having serious trouble getting to bed at ALL?
05:59:30 <alise_> soupdragon: the former
05:59:36 <alise_> t_1 t_2 is a nicer start than the more "random" t_2 t_3
05:59:46 <oerjan> soupdragon: the former is nicely lexicographic
06:00:49 <oerjan> otoh the second _does_ have its benefits if you're combining it with more things that also have a t_1 special, t_2 special, t_3 special order, i guess
06:01:08 <pikhq> alise_: I have on occasion.
06:01:23 <alise_> pikhq: I have almost universally.
06:01:42 <pikhq> alise_: Also, generally I spend at least an hour in bed before I can fall asleep.
06:01:53 <pikhq> Sometimes significantly more-so.
06:01:55 <alise_> Me too, but I would be fine if only I could get to BED.
06:02:12 <alise_> See, now I'm mentally flaking but it feels like it's "too late" to embed myself. All the damn excuses my brain comes up with.
06:02:24 <pikhq> I think a few times, I have laid in bed for 6 hours, not sleeping, and *then* slept for 8 hours.
06:02:58 <pikhq> It's like "fuck it, I'm going to fuck up my sleep schedule now."
06:03:00 <coppro> heh, (. function) or (function .) is a neat Haskell syntax trick
06:03:10 <alise_> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html
06:03:15 <alise_> get bbold10-sprite.zip
06:03:25 <oerjan> coppro: IT'S POINTLESS
06:03:28 <alise_> also some sans-serif, fraktur, ams greek, and what I think is \mathcal there
06:03:40 <alise_> just put them in with the sprite fonts
06:04:09 <pikhq> It's the triple-breasted whore of Eroticon Six!
06:04:31 <oerjan> !haskell :t (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)
06:04:32 <EgoBot> (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.) :: (b1 -> b -> c)
06:05:00 <oerjan> it gave more lines in DCC
06:05:04 <pikhq> Well, that's a nearly impossible type.
06:05:13 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, that would help.
06:05:22 <coppro> !haskell :t (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)
06:05:22 <oerjan> 07:04 =EgoBot> -> (a -> b1)
06:05:22 <oerjan> 07:04 =EgoBot> -> (a1 -> b)
06:05:23 <EgoBot> (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.) :: (b1 -> b -> c)
06:05:57 <pikhq> (b1 -> b -> c) -> (a -> b1) -> a -> (a1 -> b) -> a1 -> c , eh?
06:06:07 <pikhq> Okay, that's *much* less crazy.
06:06:30 <soupdragon> I can't get it to display mathbb correctly
06:06:33 <pikhq> Pointless, perhaps, but much less crazy.
06:06:42 <oerjan> pikhq: it actually repeats when you add another (.)(.)(.)(.)
06:07:45 <alise_> did you install the fonts i told you to
06:08:04 <alise_> <alise_> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html
06:08:04 <alise_> <alise_> get bbold10-sprite.zip
06:08:04 <alise_> <oerjan> coppro: IT'S POINTLESS
06:08:04 <alise_> <alise_> also some sans-serif, fraktur, ams greek, and what I think is \mathcal there
06:08:04 <alise_> <pikhq> coppro: (.).(.)
06:08:05 <alise_> <alise_> just put them in with the sprite font
06:08:22 <alise_> because it doesn't come with jsmath, just like a few other fonts. so just put them in with the jsmath files, job done
06:09:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
06:09:54 <soupdragon> Can't load fonts/msbm10/def.js: Access to restricted URI denied
06:10:06 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:13:23 <soupdragon> Let us derive a formula for solutions of the general cubic with coefficients in <SPAN CLASS="math"> \mathbb{Q} </SPAN> using Galois theory.
06:13:53 <soupdragon> but it is very nice http://i.imgur.com/Dcz8N.png
06:16:31 <coppro> express the cubic formula as one equation
06:17:12 <oerjan> a x^3 + b x^2 + c x + d = 0
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07:04:32 <soupdragon> I wish alise could be here to see this ;'(
07:30:31 <coppro> (well, for math, regular TeX will do)
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09:56:49 <aox> Hi folks. Is anyone here into Malbolge?
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10:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel that this is relevant to yesterday's discussion.
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12:59:23 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: we've had like 100 discussions yesterday
13:33:34 <nooga> i've got a german guy in my flat
13:34:26 <nooga> and he talks on skype all the time and listens to techno, but then he leaves to his office because he's an accounter
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15:28:53 <alise> <soupdragon> Can't load fonts/msbm10/def.js: Access to restricted URI denied
15:28:59 <alise> you did something incorrectly :P
15:29:42 <alise> 01:56:49 <aox> Hi folks. Is anyone here into Malbolge?
15:29:52 <alise> nobody is in to malbolge, it is too hard to be "in" to, but yes, we have Malbolge theorists here
15:29:55 <alise> among them, oerjan
15:35:51 <alise> 22:13:23 <soupdragon> Let us derive a formula for solutions of the general cubic with coefficients in <SPAN CLASS="math"> \mathbb{Q} </SPAN> using Galois theory.
15:36:24 <alise> 23:04:32 <soupdragon> I wish alise could be here to see this ;'(
15:36:28 <alise> 23:30:21 <coppro> but it's not LaTeX
15:36:34 <alise> it renders a v. large subset of latex
15:36:37 <alise> with computer modern fonts
15:37:10 <pikhq> Good morrow, alise.
15:37:17 <alise> SOUPDRAGON DID IT WRONG
15:38:13 <alise> So, 1 + 4 + 9 + 16 + ... = 0.
15:38:29 <alise> Or, more precisely, sum(n=0, inf) n^2 = 0.
15:43:27 <alise> In[20]:= FinDeriv[If[x<0,-1,If[x==0,0,1]],x]
15:43:28 <alise> Out[20]= \[Piecewise]1x==-1||x==0
15:47:40 <alise> In[35]:= FinDeriv[3^x, x]
15:47:40 <alise> In[36]:= FinInteg[2 3^x, {x, x}]
15:47:46 <alise> it actually does proper integration on it
15:47:51 <alise> FinDeriv[x_, v_] := Simplify[(x /. {v -> v + 1}) - x]
15:47:51 <alise> FinInteg[e_, {v_, x_}] := Sum[e /. {v -> y}, {y, -\[Infinity], x - 1}]
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15:59:53 <alise> anyone here good with mathematica?
16:01:08 <alise> also, coppro is wrong; most of the "plain TeX" maths you use is from latex/ams-latex.
16:01:29 <alise> unless you write "a \over b" for \frac{a}{b}
16:02:23 <alise> http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps eqn is pretty fun as the non-latex formatters go
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16:06:31 <alise> soupdragon: you know that div math stuff?
16:06:41 <alise> maybe you have to add one more js include, don't remember
16:06:46 <alise> but you can use $foo$ and \[...\] (or $$ if you must)
16:08:07 <alise> soupdragon: http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/authors/tex2math.html
16:08:17 <alise> <BODY onLoad="jsMath.ConvertTeX(); jsMath.Process()">
16:08:52 <soupdragon> so should I change <SCRIPT SRC="../jsMath-3.6e/easy/load.js"></SCRIPT> ?
16:08:59 <alise> I think it automatically loads everything you need
16:09:19 <alise> soupdragon: question
16:09:26 <alise> you have the SCRIPT at the bottom of the page right?
16:09:29 <alise> just before </body>
16:09:32 <alise> otherwise, it will lag page loading
16:09:43 <alise> so, move it there if it's not, then just change the body line to
16:09:50 <soupdragon> <SCRIPT> jsMath.ConvertTeX() </SCRIPT> works
16:10:03 <alise> you have the <SCRIPT SRC> at the bottom of the page though?
16:10:11 <alise> because browsers are stupid and stop loading the page until they completely process the script
16:10:13 <alise> so you need it at the end
16:10:19 <alise> right; but it's slower
16:10:31 <alise> soupdragon: my /second/ piece of news
16:10:43 <alise> I did finite calculus in Mathematica, and it can do indefinite finite integration!
16:12:51 <alise> soupdragon: here's the code
16:12:52 <alise> FinDeriv[x_, v_] := Simplify[(x /. {v -> v + 1}) - x]
16:12:52 <alise> FinInteg[x_, v_] := Sum[x /. {v -> a}, {a, -\[Infinity], v - 1}]
16:12:55 <alise> yeah, all two lines of it
16:13:06 <alise> caveat with FinInteg; your variable cannot be "a"
16:13:11 <alise> not sure how to avoid that problem, but who cares
16:13:38 <alise> In[73]:= FinDeriv[34^(x/3), x]
16:13:38 <alise> Out[73]= 34^(x/3) (-1 + 34^(1/3))
16:13:38 <alise> In[74]:= FinInteg[%, x]
16:13:38 <alise> Out[74]= -((34^(2/3 + x/3) (-1 + 34^(1/3)))/(-34 + 34^(2/3)))
16:13:38 <alise> In[75]:= FullSimplify[%]
16:13:44 <alise> hmm ok it should have a simplify around it
16:14:02 <alise> yikes, not even simplify does it; just fullsimplify
16:14:05 <alise> and that's slow...
16:14:09 <nooga> What's in our topic?
16:14:28 <alise> In[79]:= FinDeriv[34^(x/3), x]
16:14:28 <alise> Out[79]= 34^(x/3) (-1 + 34^(1/3))
16:14:28 <alise> In[80]:= FinInteg[%, x]
16:14:51 <alise> soupdragon: oh, and it even does ridiculously clever things
16:14:51 <alise> In[81]:= FinInteg[(2^x)/x, x]
16:14:52 <alise> Out[81]= -2^(-1 + x) HurwitzLerchPhi[1/2, 1, 1 - x]
16:16:51 <alise> soupdragon: one issue is that it can't integrate "1"
16:17:16 <alise> soupdragon: because that's "sum(a=-inf, x-1) 1"
16:17:27 <alise> nope; that simplifies to 1
16:17:53 <alise> soupdragon: I wonder what technique I should use to integrate 1?
16:18:03 <alise> soupdragon: I mean, the problem is negatives
16:18:17 <alise> ... + -3 + -2 + -1 + 0 + 1 + 2 + ... + x
16:18:27 <alise> and what mathematica doesn't realise
16:18:35 <alise> is that the negative/positive terms are irrelevant
16:18:38 <alise> depending on what input it gets, yeah?
16:18:57 <alise> soupdragon: Mathematica will usually just complain about any sum with free variables, treating them as constants and optimising anyway.
16:19:07 <alise> In[99]:= FinInteg[(1 - k)^(1 - k), x]
16:19:07 <alise> During evaluation of In[99]:= Sum::div: Sum does not converge. >>
16:19:07 <alise> \*UnderoverscriptBox[\(\[Sum]\), \(a = \(-\[Infinity]\)\), \(\(-1\) +
16:19:08 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((1 - k)\), \(1 - k\)]\)
16:19:19 <alise> Anyway, there's no possible way it could evaluate it.
16:19:55 <alise> anyway as far as i can tell
16:19:57 <alise> the sum is wrong anyway
16:20:01 <alise> In[102]:= Sum[1, {k, 0, 10}]
16:20:01 <alise> In[103]:= Sum[1, {k, -1, 10}]
16:20:01 <alise> In[104]:= Sum[1, {k, -2, 10}]
16:20:04 <alise> In[105]:= Sum[1, {k, -3, 10}]
16:20:08 <alise> the result would be ... infinity
16:20:14 <alise> so in a sense this summation method CANNOT integrate 1
16:20:34 <alise> soupdragon: same result
16:20:36 <alise> you can't fool it :)
16:21:24 <alise> soupdragon: what is the definition of falling powers again?
16:24:51 <alise> so x^_0_ = 1; x^_1_ = x; x^_n_ = x * (x-1)^_(n-1)_
16:25:42 <alise> FallingPow[__, 0] := 1
16:25:42 <alise> FallingPow[x_, 1] := x
16:25:42 <alise> FallingPow[x_, n_] := x FallingPow[x - 1, n - 1]
16:27:22 <alise> App'rntly not; that yields 0 for all inputs.
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16:28:45 <alise> Something is broken.
16:29:04 <Gregor-L> FEKK. How is it that I've been gone for only a few days, and already my webernets at home went kablooie
16:31:28 <alise> soupdragon: I got my falling power definition very wrong
16:31:45 <alise> prod(k=0, x-1) x-k
16:33:51 <alise> ah, so i'm doing it in reverse order
16:34:03 <alise> so let's see that's (7-0)(7-1)(7-2)(7-3)
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16:34:15 <alise> so that's product of (7-k) for k in 0 to n-1.
16:34:18 <alise> but that is exactly what i have.
16:34:22 <alise> FallingPow[x_, n_] := Product[x - k, {k, 0, n - 1}]
16:34:29 <soupdragon> I wanna ask oerjan or oklopol something
16:34:49 <alise> product(k=0, 3) 7-k = (7-0)(7-1)(7-2)(7-3) = 7 6 5 4
16:34:52 <alise> what did I do wrong??
16:35:12 <alise> why is it coming out to 0?
16:35:56 <alise> wtf the product works
16:36:19 <alise> you mean FallingPow=.
16:36:21 <alise> soupdragon: ok then here is a question
16:36:37 <alise> 4 * 3 * 2 * 1 * 0 * -1 * -2?
16:36:46 <alise> i'll just restart mathematica actually
16:36:51 <alise> this is too freaky
16:37:37 <pikhq> Gregor-L: Nice work.
16:38:06 <alise> In[6]:= FinDeriv[FallingPow[x, n], x]
16:38:06 <alise> Out[6]= -(((-1)^n n Gamma[-1 + n - x])/Gamma[-x])
16:38:06 <alise> In[7]:= FinDeriv[FallingPow[n, x], x]
16:38:06 <alise> Out[7]= (-1)^x n (Pochhammer[1 - n, -1 + x] + Pochhammer[1 - n, x])
16:38:09 <alise> soupdragon: good to know right?
16:38:24 <alise> mathematica starts doing crazy shit when it doesn't assume integrality
16:38:26 <alise> soupdragon: why no :(
16:38:31 <Deewiant> Your "FallingPow" is x!/(x-n)!
16:38:45 <soupdragon> It can't realize that the best way to express it is in terms of this newly defined functin
16:39:00 <alise> soupdragon: that's because it doesn't work for non-integers, I think
16:39:12 <alise> Deewiant: Well, I know that falling powers are related to binomials.
16:39:18 <alise> So maybe it is right.
16:42:06 <alise> soupdragon: anyway of course it can't automatically do that
16:42:31 <alise> In[18]:= FinDeriv[FallingPow3[x, n], x] == n*FallingPow3[x, n - 1]
16:42:31 <alise> Out[18]= (n x Gamma[x])/Gamma[2 - n + x] == (n x!)/(1 - n + x)!
16:42:31 <alise> In[19]:= FullSimplify[%]
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16:42:57 <alise> In[20]:= FallingPow3[x + 1, n] - FallingPow3[x, n]
16:42:57 <alise> Out[20]= -(x!/(-n + x)!) + (1 + x)!/(1 - n + x)!
16:43:00 <alise> ^ without the fullsimplify
16:43:03 <alise> soupdragon: no, it couldn't
16:43:05 <alise> the function has to be opaque
16:43:11 <alise> otherwise it couldn't do such transformations
16:43:14 <alise> and by the end, it's been lost
16:43:25 <alise> I don't know why mathematica thinks gamma is simpler than factorial, mind
16:44:04 <alise> I mean it's not ideal I agree
16:44:11 <alise> I just don't think it would be easy to have mathematica do this
16:45:34 <alise> ok what can do it then, apart from your head
16:46:19 <soupdragon> wouldn't it be great if, when you defined a new function - it tried to figure out the algebraic properties of it
16:46:21 <alise> In[5]:= FinInteg[FallingPow[x, n], n]
16:46:21 <alise> Out[5]= E Gamma[1 + x] (1 - ExpIntegralE[n - x, 1]/Gamma[1 - n + x])
16:46:33 <alise> soupdragon: yes, but that's not really practical,
16:46:36 <alise> if every time it did a transformation
16:46:39 <alise> it had to look at EVERY function
16:46:41 <alise> to see if it would work here
16:47:05 <alise> I prefer predictability
16:48:04 <alise> In[10]:= FullSimplify[
16:48:04 <alise> FinDeriv[FallingPow[x, n], x] == n FallingPow[x, n - 1]]
16:48:25 <alise> It's a bit much to expect the computer to discover amazing new facts and identities about random functions automatically then instantly apply them everywhere
16:48:56 <soupdragon> FallingPow[x, n], x] == n FallingPow[x, n - 1] is trivial
16:50:04 <alise> it's checking the derivative
16:50:13 <alise> what you said isn't trivial it's even false :-)
16:50:28 <alise> FinInteg is a bit slow with the FullSimplify; meh
16:50:47 <alise> I don't think anyone else has done indefinite finite integration, so there
16:52:54 <alise> soupdragon: I think there probably is a way to get it to return the result in terms of FallingPower
16:52:58 <alise> AND I'M SURE DEEWIANT KNOWS IT HEM HEM
16:54:02 <Deewiant> If you find out, do tell me, though; I've wanted something similar myself on occasion
16:55:10 <alise> soupdragon: I bet CASulator could do it
16:55:48 <alise> soupdragon: no -- but I'm going to create it
16:55:58 <alise> because dammit, I want a CAS in my pocket
16:56:04 <alise> stupid numeric graphing calculators suck
16:56:27 * soupdragon wants to prove this diophantine has only one solution
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16:56:59 <alise> I'M SURE A COMPUTER COULD DO THAT
16:57:38 <nooga> just put mathematica on some server and use it via gprs internet connection
16:57:43 <nooga> how hard it could be
16:57:55 <alise> soupdragon: no of course not
16:58:02 <alise> diophantine equations are not quite in the computable realm :P
16:58:08 <alise> nooga: no that's shitty, you're shitty
16:58:11 <alise> firstly, reception
16:58:23 <alise> thirdly, mathematica is not very good UI for a calculator
16:58:32 <alise> and finally, I want to write a damn CAS
16:59:41 <alise> soupdragon: on a tiny embedded calculator cpu???
16:59:47 <alise> nooga: no it's not overkill
17:00:03 <alise> using an unreliable, very very slow internet connection to talk to a $thousands package on a centralised server which will need to be expensive to handle multiple users,
17:00:11 <alise> with a bad ui not tuned to a calculator
17:00:14 <alise> /that/ is overkill
17:00:23 <alise> the basic CAS algorithms are not hard
17:00:29 <alise> it'll be a learning experience anyway...
17:00:32 <alise> CAS stuff, /and/ embedded stuff
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17:01:08 <nooga> but cramming usable CAS into a handheld is not easy
17:01:47 <alise> which is the challenge!
17:01:59 <alise> of course I won't have every function ever, and it'll be quite slow for solving and simplification and the like
17:02:08 <alise> but it'll be nice to be able to fiddle over things like algorithm performance without being crazy
17:02:23 <alise> also, I get to draw a font (assuming I use a calculator-y display rather than a high-powered "proper" one)
17:02:29 <alise> (eink isn't an option; too slow response time for typing)
17:03:04 <nooga> you want to build the actual device?
17:03:24 <alise> well I'd write the code on a simulator on a pc first... but sure, long term sort of thing
17:03:36 <alise> I doubt it will get further than a bunch of shit tied together with wires... like, getting plastic made doesn't sound fun
17:07:03 <nooga> ARM+RAM+lcd+keyboard+card reader is not very complicated construction
17:07:23 <alise> arm is a bit much isn't it? if we want long battery life
17:07:39 <alise> I guess the TI-Nspire probably works fine with ARM
17:07:57 <alise> I was personally thinking Z80, since I've never seen or written Z80 code, seems interesting; but perhaps a bit too low powered.
17:08:47 <nooga> i'm building a 8088 based computer and IMHO even 8088 is too minimal
17:09:49 <nooga> but it sucks equally
17:10:14 <olsner> CAS? Compare-and-Swap?
17:10:25 <Mathnerd314> nooga: isn't Wolfram Alpha basically Mathematica on a server?
17:10:58 <alise> olsner: Computer Algebra system
17:11:23 <nooga> + you're wrong alise: 8088 was released in 79 and Z80 was 8080 compatible processor introdouced in 76
17:11:24 <alise> olsner: Mathematica, Maxima, Axiom, etc.; in the old says, Macsyma
17:13:26 <olsner> hmm, not familiar with that term... basically, something that does symbolic processing instead of just calculating?
17:15:11 <soupdragon> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=ContourPlot[x+%2B+3+x^2+%2B+2+x^3+%3D%3D+6+y^2%2C+{x%2C+-10%2C+10}%2C+{y%2C+-10%2C+10}]
17:17:58 <nooga> it's mathematica + really big inference engine
17:18:16 <nooga> + enormous knowledge base
17:19:15 <fizzie> It also lacks things like a session where you could define stuff in; you ony have that one query. And at least earlier it didn't evaluate arbitrary Mathematica expressions.
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17:20:07 <Mathnerd314> actually, enormous knowledge base is in mathematica already
17:21:29 <alise> Mathnerd314: not all of it.
17:21:33 <alise> and it's hardly enormous.
17:21:37 <alise> olsner: basically, yes
17:22:18 <fizzie> I think there are some Maxima/Axiom/Sage builds/packages for Maemo, but I doubt any have very handheld-optimized UIs.
17:22:32 <alise> olsner: something that can solve equations, do precise calculations involving pi and other real numbers, let you enter "derivative of x^2" in some form and get back "2 x", and then approximate any result to any number of decimal places...
17:22:54 <Mathnerd314> alise: look at this; I think it's big: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/ComputableDataOverview.html
17:22:59 <fizzie> Sage's "notebook" interface is browser-based, I think. It might sort of work. Never tried it out.
17:23:10 <alise> Mathnerd314: i know of that database
17:23:16 <alise> it is sorely lacking; most of it is just toy examples
17:23:39 <alise> 99% of what wolfram says is marketing, believe the opposite until you can verify it's true yourself :)
17:23:50 <alise> fizzie: it is browser based yeah but it is kinda complex and icky
17:24:05 <alise> fizzie: there is an account-based sage notebook thing you could try that out
17:24:13 <alise> slower though of course
17:26:15 <fizzie> alise: I tried to run qbasic in the dosbox I have in this thing, but the default keyboard configuration doesn't support the "fn" key, so all you can input is a-z and .,<> -- couldn't write the "mount" command to get access to qbasic.exe, and anyway without things like digits and punctuation...
17:27:29 <fizzie> The "workaround" was "use a bluetooth keyboard", ha.
17:28:31 <alise> the problem with a casulator is all the keys you need
17:28:41 <alise> i think maybe some sort of subset of the alphabet would be nice so you could like "search" for functions
17:29:03 <alise> like press "insert", type goraph to get goldenratio (phi) or something
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17:35:19 <alise> oerjan: ouch don't
17:35:31 <oerjan> there _is_ an Oranjer regular here you know
17:35:43 <nooga> Orajner != oerjan ?
17:35:53 <alise> couldn't you tell from the personality
17:35:58 <alise> oerjan: plz don't say lisa :P
17:36:06 <oerjan> alise: you started it ;D
17:36:16 <alise> oerjan: it is a name with bad connotations for me.
17:36:32 <nooga> DANGER DANGER DANGER
17:36:40 <alise> (it's a lisa's fault I'm in the unit)
17:36:46 * oerjan assumes it's a psychopathic psychiatrist... oh
17:36:55 <alise> nooga: if you don't know you don't want to
17:37:11 <oerjan> alise: so i was pretty close i assume
17:37:22 <alise> oerjan: pretty much.
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18:01:49 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: you have been enlightened!
18:02:10 <oerjan> time for the second initiation rite!
18:02:24 <oerjan> bring the hippopotami!
18:02:52 <alise> soupdragon: uh oh, oerjan has got you!!
18:02:59 <alise> soupdragon: put that math note on the web, i wanna see it
18:03:23 <alise> that one you wrote with jsmath
18:04:23 <oerjan> <soupdragon> I wanna ask oerjan or oklopol something <-- that'll be 50 quibbles
18:06:06 <soupdragon> oerjan, I've figured it out by now [sort of] but if you are curious I was trying to prove that 70^2 is the only square expressible as 1^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 + ... + n^2
18:06:09 <oerjan> (conversion rates are approximate, and may not be up to date)
18:06:47 <oerjan> well step 1 would be to squish that second into a 3rd degree polynomial
18:07:29 <oerjan> also, i didn't know that, unless i've forgotten it
18:08:46 <soupdragon> Yeah, that turns it into an elliptic equation
18:09:04 <oerjan> huh? oh it requires some fancy stuff?
18:10:13 <oerjan> well for a start only one of the factors can be even
18:10:58 <oerjan> so it is divisible by either 2, 8, 32, or some odd power of 2
18:12:00 <oerjan> and also exactly one of them is divisible by 3
18:13:05 <oerjan> !haskell [(n*(n+1)*(2n+1))`div`6| n <-[0..9]]
18:13:42 <oerjan> !haskell [(n*(n+1)*(2*n+1)) `div` 6| n <-[0..9]]
18:13:44 <EgoBot> [0,1,5,14,30,55,91,140,204,285]
18:14:27 <oerjan> !haskell scanl1 (+) . map (^2) $ [0..9]
18:14:29 <EgoBot> [0,1,5,14,30,55,91,140,204,285]
18:15:42 <oerjan> well if soupdragon had it has homework, it might very well require the fancy stuff she's studying
18:16:26 <alise> soupdragon: have you got the native TeX fonts installed, or are you using the sprite ones?
18:16:46 <alise> soupdragon: yaeh they're nice
18:17:04 <alise> the sprite ones work fine for everyone else though, just pixellates on scaling, doesn't print as well and maybe looks a little bit out of place
18:17:08 <soupdragon> alise, you want the HTML? or a PDF or what?
18:17:14 <alise> but it's still better than, say, an inline image
18:17:21 <alise> soupdragon: sure the html, I just wanted to read the note :P
18:17:31 <oerjan> !haskell scanl1 (+) . map (^2) $ [0..20]
18:17:33 <soupdragon> yes but you have to read it beautifully typeset
18:17:33 <EgoBot> [0,1,5,14,30,55,91,140,204,285,385,506,650,819,1015,1240,1496,1785,2109,2470,2870]
18:17:59 <oerjan> !haskell scanl1 (+) . map (^2) $ [0..40]
18:18:01 <EgoBot> [0,1,5,14,30,55,91,140,204,285,385,506,650,819,1015,1240,1496,1785,2109,2470,2870,3311,3795,4324,4900,5525,6201,6930,7714,8555,9455,10416,11440,12529,13685,14910,16206,17575,19019,20540,22140]
18:18:09 <soupdragon> http://pastie.org/952615.txt?key=bnzqq8f8upnmvozmedqihq
18:18:37 * oerjan actually cannot be bothered
18:18:58 <oerjan> and you solved it already so
18:19:28 <alise> <soupdragon> do you have the mathbb font working
18:19:32 <soupdragon> I just found out a theorem which it lives in
18:19:47 <alise> soupdragon: btw i'm not sure but i think you can use the theorem environment stuff with jsmath
18:19:55 <alise> also darn i don't have the js files to hand :(
18:21:13 <alise> I sort of have this idea to make a nice blog with jsmath and nice typography now...
18:21:36 <oerjan> <alise> I don't think anyone else has done indefinite finite integration, so there <-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_sum , i looked at it yesterday
18:22:33 <alise> I just use "sum(k=-inf, x-1) f'(k)", yielding f(x)
18:22:46 <alise> apart from when f'(k) = 1; then it doesn't converge...
18:24:05 <Mathnerd314> oh, I like the calculus of finite differences
18:24:25 <Mathnerd314> there was a talk on it a couple of years ago
18:25:40 <alise> soupdragon: me too what?
18:25:52 <alise> <alise> soupdragon: btw i'm not sure but i think you can use the theorem environment stuff with jsmath
18:25:53 <alise> <alise> I sort of have this idea to make a nice blog with jsmath and nice typography now...
18:25:55 <alise> <alise> I just use "sum(k=-inf, x-1) f'(k)", yielding f(x)
18:26:11 <alise> why does jsmath package depend on apache2.....
18:27:38 <alise> <SCRIPT SRC="jsmath/easy/load.js"></SCRIPT>
18:27:38 <alise> <SCRIPT> jsMath.ConvertTeX() </SCRIPT>
18:27:42 <alise> these should really be at end of body :(
18:27:43 <alise> or page load will lag
18:27:51 <alise> because browsers suck; when they see a script tag
18:27:52 <fizzie> It's just a "recommends" dependency, on "apache | apache-ssl | apache-perl | apache2 | httpd".
18:27:55 <alise> they immediately stop loading the page,
18:28:01 <alise> download the script
18:28:02 <alise> run the entire script
18:28:08 <alise> so it blocks the entire page load
18:28:34 <alise> pineapple: browsers suck; that's a general law of nature
18:28:43 <alise> soupdragon: man that's typeset well
18:28:50 <alise> I bet not even Knuth could distinguish it from TeX :-)
18:28:56 <alise> jsmath is jawesome
18:29:07 <Deewiant> That's not suckiness, there is reason to do that; if you put it up there the expectation is that you want something run at that point
18:29:25 <fizzie> Not doing it would break the broken document.write stuff, though that's a pretty sucky thing in general.
18:29:38 <alise> Deewiant: yes, but still.
18:29:43 <alise> cluttering up the body is lame.
18:29:48 <alise> i love how you can zoom in all the way and it still looks like computer modern
18:29:49 <pineapple> Deewiant: by some people, yes; i get the feeling though that others copy putting it at the top without understanding why
18:30:01 <Deewiant> I'm just saying you can't say the browser sucks because it does that
18:30:12 <Deewiant> It probably follows some spec, and if not, it does what you'd expect
18:30:32 <alise> soupdragon: btw, if you use this on anything public i strongly suggest setting the default to image fonts, not just for symbols
18:30:42 <alise> otherwise it uses the body font for variable names and shit and it looks really ugly
18:30:48 <alise> soupdragon: no no it'll still use tex fonts when available
18:30:54 <alise> just it won't fall back to image-fonts-only-for-symbols
18:31:45 <alise> oh and also it bugs everyone who reads the page to install tex fonts which 99% people really don't need to...
18:31:50 <alise> <STYLE> #jsMath_Warning {display: none} </STYLE> before including jsmath fixes that
18:32:51 <alise> oh and you also need to put
18:32:51 <alise> <SCRIPT SRC="path-to-jsMath/plugins/spriteImageFonts.js"></SCRIPT>
18:32:53 <alise> before loading jsmath
18:32:56 <alise> (yeah this is a pain but ehh)
18:33:40 <alise> soupdragon: and before /that/ script,
18:33:41 <alise> <SCRIPT> jsMath = {Font: {fallback: "image"}} </SCRIPT>
18:33:45 <alise> will make it better for people with non-tex fonts
18:35:41 <alise> The usual way to load jsMath used to be with a SCRIPT tag within the BODY of the document; loading jsMath in the document HEAD used to require additional effort, but as of version 3.0, this is no longer the case. You can now load jsMath in the HEAD and call jsMath.Process() or jsMath.ProcessBeforeShowing() in the document's onLoad handler without ever having any jsMath calls within the BODY of the document. The old jsMath.Setup.Body() call is no longer needed
18:36:00 <alise> soupdragon: does the mathbb stuff show for you?
18:36:21 <alise> just shows as bold for me
18:36:42 <alise> If you are using easy/load.js to load jsMath, you can add the new font to the loadFonts array in easy/load.js. For example,
18:36:42 <alise> loadFonts: ["cmmib10"],
18:36:42 <alise> will cause the cmmib10 font to be available on every page that uses easy/load.js. If you are loading jsMath.js by hand, then in the HTML file that will be using the new font, include the line
18:36:44 <alise> <SCRIPT> jsMath.Font.Load("cmmib10") </SCRIPT>
18:36:46 <alise> right after loading jsMath.js. That will load the data needed for jsMath to handle the cmmib10 font.
18:36:48 <alise> soupdragon: ^^ do that
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18:42:44 <alise> soupdragon: Ehh who wants blackboard bold anyway right?? Stupid Bourbakian invention? ...right? Right?
18:42:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:43:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/Linear_algebra#Application:_Analyzing_Liberal_style_on_Wikipedia
18:44:18 <alise> soupdragon: you do not sound convince.d
18:44:58 <alise> soupdragon: just to check, you have put bbold10-sprite.zip's contents in the right place yeah?
18:45:04 <alise> not the native version
18:45:29 <oerjan> alise: sheesh you're making bourbaki roll in his grave
18:45:39 * oerjan ducks beneath a rock again
18:45:42 <alise> who likes bourbaki anyway!
18:47:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
18:47:39 <oerjan> his set theory was one of the first books i found in the library when starting university
18:48:09 <alise> soupdragon: btw you can do \unicode{x2124} e.g. for blackboard Z, but tis ugly
18:48:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:55:06 <nooga> i don't know why but it's really awesome to ask php guys about a cool feature that php haven't got and then watch their mad reactions ;D
18:55:21 <alise> i have it almost working
18:55:25 <alise> it works with images but not tex fonts
18:55:39 <alise> it works with both
18:55:58 <alise> soupdragon: ok you need msbm10 from http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsmath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html in both ttf and sprite
18:56:11 <alise> unpack the sprite one in jsmath/fonts; leave the directory as is don't expand the files just the directory into there
18:56:32 <alise> then edit jsmath/easy/load.js
18:56:35 <alise> and change the loadFonts line to
18:56:37 <alise> loadFonts: ["msbm10"],
18:56:48 <alise> also install the ttf one for your personal use
18:57:18 <alise> soupdragon: and this is what the head of your html page should look like: http://pastie.org/952666.txt?key=buhhmspyfe1dfqkcw54lza
18:57:26 <alise> perfect blackboard bold.
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19:00:07 <alise> soupdragon: change jsmath/ in that head to where your jsmath files are obviously
19:00:14 <alise> soupdragon: now will you actually do this or did I do all that work for nothing :)
19:02:54 <nooga> Mathnerd314: not on irc
19:03:24 -!- augur has joined.
19:05:17 <nooga> it's much like twitter
19:06:10 <alise> soupdragon: also if you want \binom and stuff you need http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/authors/AMSmath.html
19:06:19 <Mathnerd314> nooga: except in a language I don't know :p
19:06:20 <alise> oh wait if it has align it must already been in there
19:06:28 <nooga> Mathnerd314: Polish ofc
19:06:55 <alise> loadFiles: ["extensions/AMSmath.js", "extensions/AMSsymbols.js"],
19:07:16 <alise> yay, now \therefore works
19:09:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:09:37 <alise> soupdragon: dammit i broke your thing by adding my thing
19:11:44 -!- hiato has joined.
19:23:15 <hiato> Don't suppose one of you is 'kirarinsnow' for GCJ?
19:23:55 <alise> soupdragon: i fixed it and now it is all pefect
19:24:30 <hiato> Whoever that was did GCJ in Piet, sed, J, Prolog, Octave and SNOBOL
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19:29:30 <alise> soupdragon: yeah I made a lot of changes so ignore my previous advice
19:29:32 <alise> I've got everything working
19:29:35 <alise> proper blackboard bold and all
19:30:15 -!- Alex3012 has joined.
19:30:54 <soupdragon> mathbb is the sexiest thing I have ever seen
19:32:11 <alise> soupdragon: so are you prepared to do the work of downloading some files and changing two files to get it? :P
19:32:44 <alise> only works for you, y'see
19:32:54 <alise> besides, mine actually uses sprite fonts and stuff
19:33:20 <alise> soupdragon: yes, but it only shows for people without the fonts
19:33:30 <alise> the alternative is it not working at all for those people since you don't have the image fonts
19:37:02 <alise> http://pastie.org/952722.txt?key=6caif1bj8kqogegg4k6tua
19:37:20 <alise> the ultimate guide to awesome jsMath, with symbols like \therefore, proper mathbb, even \mathcal if you want, sprite font fallback, native fonts, everything
19:37:31 <alise> do that once and all you need to do in future is copy the head code to another document
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19:42:49 <alise> soupdragon: slight jsMath caveat: copy and paste doesn't really work
19:43:01 <alise> but then you cannot really copy and paste typeset mathematics.
19:43:09 <alise> double clicking on an equation gets you the tex code though
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19:54:51 <alise_> soupdragon: wow you can even hide the mathematics while it's typesetting
19:57:35 <alise_> soupdragon: edit easy/load.js to have this instead of the :1 version,
19:57:45 <alise_> window.jsMath = {Font: {fallback: "image", Message: function () {}}};
19:57:50 <alise_> window.jsMath = {Font: {fallback: "image"}};
19:59:46 <alise_> soupdragon: you can use numbered equations!
19:59:47 <alise_> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/authors/eqn-number.html
20:00:24 <soupdragon> yeah there is no doubt about it this is the best way to do math
20:07:10 <alise_> sometime i think i will try using @font-face so that people with modern browsers get tex fonts automatically, even if they haven't installed them!
20:09:56 <alise_> soupdragon: http://91.104.225.35/maths.html i wrote some stuff about zeta summation because dammit i can't stop thinking about how to sum the reciprocals
20:10:06 <alise_> mostly just to test out how pretty i can get some stuff
20:10:17 <alise_> actually i will put in a nice mac font there
20:11:23 <alise_> soupdragon: i will see if i can fix it
20:12:12 <alise_> soupdragon: For me it displays beautifully: http://imgur.com/o21rB.png
20:13:38 <alise_> soupdragon: dunno. i'm trying to fix it now
20:13:40 <alise_> in the meantime refresh
20:13:42 <alise_> I changed the font for OS X
20:14:08 * Sgeo runs a VM he hasn't run in YEARS
20:15:03 <alise_> soupdragon: no i mean the text
20:15:07 <alise_> but the surrounding text
20:15:28 <soupdragon> oh it's changed now but it wasn't changed a moment ago
20:15:49 <alise_> is the change better? in the non-tex bits
20:15:57 <alise_> don't have an os x box to hand, a screenshot would be nice I guess :P
20:16:03 <alise_> ok right now i'll fix this alignment issue
20:17:49 <alise_> i forgot how nice hoefler text is
20:18:58 <alise_> soupdragon: and the options panel says native fonts are being used?
20:23:34 * Sgeo accidentally rtrapped himself in Win98 for a bit
20:23:37 <Sgeo> I escaped, though
20:30:04 <pikhq> soupdragon: Learn all the languages.
20:30:36 <pikhq> I suggest getting a time machine, and finding the common ancestor of all langauges, and start there.
20:30:46 <pikhq> Also, attain immortality.
20:31:21 <pikhq> You're going to be studying for at least a few centuries.
20:33:37 * Sgeo would like to learn all the programming languages
20:35:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:35:43 * Sgeo would love to learn BANCstar
20:36:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: That would actually take *significantly* less effort.
20:36:43 <pikhq> As programming languages have pretty much all been attested at one time or another.
20:36:54 <pikhq> And are generally designed to be learnable in not-too-much-time.
20:37:15 <pikhq> Though a *royal* fucking pain, I suspect someone could just about manage it in a human lifetime.
20:37:36 <pikhq> Though they'll be damned bitter about the continual invention of programming languages. ;)
20:38:15 -!- anschelsc has joined.
20:38:31 -!- anschelsc has left (?).
20:39:07 <Sgeo> To be fair to BANCstar, I wouldn't really expect an intermediate language to be decent
20:41:02 <alise_> soupdragon: i thought i worked out the sum of the reciprocals
20:41:05 <alise_> but i worked out the product
20:41:45 <fizzie> "Skeletons and maximal balls"; what a great title in this "computer vision" course lecture-slide.
20:42:15 <alise_> maximal balls are maximally manly
20:43:20 <fizzie> First-level point "Skeletons", second-level point "formation with maximal balls", third-level sub-point "the result can be non-homotopic".
20:44:14 <alise_> inf! = sqrt(2 pi); inf! = 1*2*3*4*...; 1/abcd = (1/a)(1/b)(1/c)(1/d); (1/1)(1/2)(1/3)(1/4)...=1/(1*2*3*4*...); so the product of the reciprocals is 1/sqrt(2 pi)
20:46:42 <alise_> soupdragon: I think I fixed http://localhost/maths.html
20:46:58 <alise_> make sure to cmd-refresh or whatever it is
20:47:18 <fizzie> "There's no such file in my localhost."
20:47:40 <Sgeo> Anyone have experience with ILLGOL?
20:47:58 <alise_> http://91.104.225.35/maths.html
20:48:27 <alise_> /should/ display the most beautiful rendering of mathematics ever conceived of :P
20:49:10 <alise_> View source; does it include this line?
20:49:15 <alise_> vertical-align: baseline;
20:50:27 <Sgeo> "I haven't killed anyone at ALL since I started programming in ILLGOL!"
20:50:27 <alise_> still not working? whattt
20:51:26 <alise_> soupdragon: does the view source show this:
20:52:21 <alise_> then ... what the fuck
20:52:44 <alise_> try now, tried something new
20:52:54 <alise_> it should be slightly /above/ the text now
20:53:01 <alise_> it's a bit above the baseline
20:53:04 <alise_> I'll just quickly fix that
20:54:35 <alise_> it is between 0.11 and 0.12 em too high
20:55:32 <alise_> soupdragon: refresh again :P
20:55:36 <alise_> I know this is a pain, just trying to diagnose it
20:56:10 <alise_> this would be a lot easier if I had safari to hand... try now?
20:57:58 <alise_> weird. so am i, firefox 3 here though
21:02:05 -!- alise_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:02:37 <comex> A number n is irrational iff Unknown control sequence '\msbm' and Unknown control sequence '\msbm'.
21:03:49 -!- alise has joined.
21:06:39 <alise> soupdragon: i'll try to fix it later... can't seem to right now
21:06:48 <alise> http://localhost/galois.html ;; I PLAGIARISED YOU
21:09:07 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:10:40 <zzo38> I thought about, in a D&D game, how to make a rule that if two magical effects are making anti-magic field with overlap areas, that there can be interference pattern.
21:10:54 <zzo38> In some places they constructively interfere and in others they destructively interfere.
21:11:27 <zzo38> In some places you can still cast spells but the range would be severly restricted to a few inches. If you can't cast a spell, try moving a few inches and try again.
21:12:38 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:12:47 <alise> soupdragon: Interesting fact: John Baez founded the school of Baezian statistics.
21:14:08 <zzo38> However, in some anti-magic that doesn't count as a magical effect in that way, it will just be antimagic without the interference pattern. Another way there would be no interference pattern is if one of them is caused by an artifact and the other by a non-artifact.
21:16:28 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
21:16:56 <alise> Absolutely! I like it and I didn't even read it.
21:20:16 <zzo38> Why didn't you read it?
21:21:16 <zzo38> Then how can you know if you like it?
21:21:29 <zzo38> If you didn't read it?
21:21:41 <soupdragon> What should I be doing for the next few hours
21:22:10 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
21:22:31 <Oranjer> soupdragon--make a generator for something normally seen as "too vague to define"
21:24:08 <alise> zzo38: i like anything you say it's usually awesome
21:24:17 <alise> soupdragon: TYPESETTING BEAUTIFUL MATHEMATICS
21:24:26 <alise> code is fun occasionally.
21:24:28 <soupdragon> I don't have any more mathematics to write out
21:24:38 <soupdragon> I have lost that drive to write programs
21:24:54 <soupdragon> maybe I should solve a quintic in radicals
21:25:25 <alise> soupdragon: prove that there does not exist a pair of turing-complete machines/automatons A and B such that neither A nor B are Turing-complete, but feeding some code S to A (producing a potentially infinite output) and then feeding the result into B as its code yields Turing-completeness
21:25:51 <alise> (this would remove any doubt about the validity of ais523's 2,3 TM proof; since the generating automaton is not Turing-complete, and the whole construction is Turing-complete, the 2,3 TM would therefore have to be Turing-complete)
21:26:00 <zzo38> soupdragon: OK, play a game, perhaps? Such as Super ASCII MZX Town (series)? Or even make up a game.
21:26:18 <soupdragon> alise - isn't that obvious? The composition of two subturing functions is subturing
21:26:18 <Gregor-L> alise: ... you just said A and B are TC ... do you mean that A and B are non-universal TM, but their interaction is universal?
21:26:31 <zzo38> Or perhaps, play Sub-EBCDIC ZZT Village.
21:26:33 <alise> soupdragon: it isn't obvious because of infinite output
21:26:47 <alise> soupdragon: the generating automaton in ais's proof generates an infinite, non-repeating -- but still generated by a sub-TC -- computer
21:26:48 <zzo38> (Actually, "Sub-EBCDIC ZZT Village" doesn't exist)
21:26:52 <alise> this then invokes TC behaviour in the 2,3 TM
21:26:57 <alise> the argument is whether this makes the 2,3 TM TC
21:26:57 <soupdragon> zzo38, I was thinking of making a rougelike but I don't think I can really be bothered because I expect that i would give up on at before it was really good
21:26:58 <Gregor-L> One stack machine + one stack machine = one Turing machine.
21:27:06 <alise> just makes {automaton} + {2,3} TM
21:27:12 <alise> Gregor-L: No, but that isn't what I said.
21:27:14 <alise> Not just the interaction.
21:27:34 <alise> Instead of B(x), we do B(A(x)), where A's output /may be infinite and non-repeating/, but both A and B are sub-TC.
21:27:47 <alise> Prove then that B(A(x)) is not Turing-complete.
21:28:00 <alise> this has not been proved, if it has I am stating it wrong
21:28:06 <alise> because it was the fundamental disagreement about ais's proof
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21:31:24 <alise> clearly soupdragon is not nterested :P
21:33:03 <alise> if you disprove it, i.e. it does not hold for all TMs, the controversy remains :(
21:38:26 <alise> soupdragon: so... prove it :P
21:39:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:40:32 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:41:19 <Sgeo> FUCK MY INTERNET CONNECTION
21:41:24 <Sgeo> FUCK IT WITH A RUSTY HOSE
21:42:21 <alise> soupdragon: Why not?
21:42:31 <alise> I'd say it's very obviously intuitive. Just perhaps not true.
21:42:31 <soupdragon> I think you have to put stronge restrictions on G than just subturing
21:43:47 <soupdragon> I haven't constructed but I can imagine there could be a TC FG where F and G are subturing
21:44:04 <soupdragon> (probably exploiting the bijection between |N and |N*)
21:44:32 <alise> ok, but why do you imagine this?
21:45:12 <alise> It seems obvious to me that you cannot have complexity contained in a one way strand of communication, if the thing being communicated is not complex, and the thing it is being fed to does not have the power to create complex things,
21:45:17 <alise> then whence the complexity (Turing-completeness)?
21:49:02 <soupdragon> if you needed to calculate something, but you could only generate a bunch of stuff that included the answer - that might be subturing. If you could only find the correct answer in a stream that had it already, that would be subturing too -- but perhaps together turing
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21:50:17 <alise> so like, that formula that gives negative -> not prime; positive -> prime
21:50:19 <alise> and a prime-checker
21:50:21 <alise> is a prime generator
21:50:27 <alise> even though neither can generate just primes?
21:50:39 <alise> I'm not sure it applies to Turing-completeness but it's a good argument
21:54:07 <Sgeo> My step-mother asked me to look up "Calorie City" as a joke grr
21:55:54 <Sgeo> She often asks me to look up places, so I thought it was just another place to look up
21:56:00 <Sgeo> So she wasted my time with a pathetic joke
21:56:52 <alise> You could not look up the places in future.
21:57:09 <alise> Anyway, how is it a joke? It lacks notable qualities, like even the seeming intent to be funny or meaningful in some way.
21:57:13 <alise> Maybe I just don't get it.
21:57:47 <soupdragon> Tell your mom it says gullible on the ceiling
21:57:56 <soupdragon> if she falls for it you have made her look up
21:58:10 <alise> no, tell her gullible is actually spelled "gulliable", and gullible is the americanisation
21:58:14 <alise> tell her to look it up in the dictionary
21:58:48 <Sgeo> alise, she always tries to get me to eat, which I guess is nice
22:02:31 <soupdragon> I am really stunned by diophantine equations
22:03:29 <uorygl> Yeah, eating is kind of a good thing.
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23:25:16 <oerjan> !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [n - prevSq n | n <- [1..50]]
23:25:33 <EgoBot> [0,1,2,0,1,2,3,4,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,0,1]
23:26:03 <oerjan> !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [n - prevSq n | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2]
23:26:05 <EgoBot> [1,4,2,7,1,8,17,7,18,4,17,32,14,31,9,28,2,23,46,16,41,7,34,63,25,56,14,47,1,36,73,23,62,8,49,92,34,79,17,64,113,47,98,28,81,7,62,119,41,100]
23:27:19 <oerjan> !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2, n - prevSq n == 1]
23:28:20 <oerjan> !haskell 28*29*(2*28+1)`div` 6
23:29:38 <oerjan> !haskell let prevSq n = (ceiling . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2, n - nextSq n == -1]
23:30:08 <oerjan> !haskell let nextSq n = (ceiling . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2, n - nextSq n == -1]
23:30:47 <oerjan> !haskell 24*25*(2*24+1)`div` 6
23:35:39 <oerjan> !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..1000], let n = 2*x^2, n - prevSq n == 1]
23:38:43 <oerjan> !haskell let nextSq n = (ceiling . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..1000], let n = 2*x^2, n - nextSq n == -1]
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00:43:59 -!- coppro has set topic: Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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00:58:07 <oerjan> i don't see why we should capitulate for french when we've already had japanese up there
00:58:47 <pikhq> It's just punycoded now.
01:00:17 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esperanto ankaŭ! | Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:02:05 -!- lament has set topic: Esperanto is still bannable! | Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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02:14:26 <zzo38> soupdragon: If you are thinking to make roguelike what one?
02:15:06 <soupdragon> I'm not actually going to make it anyway
02:15:49 <zzo38> soupdragon: OK. But have you played my two short roguelikes? (If you want to modify them afterward, that's OK, too)
02:16:16 <soupdragon> no, but is it possible for me to? I am on mac os
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02:18:03 <zzo38> soupdragon: They are both DOS programs, but you could try either using a DOS emulator or compiling them using FreeBASIC.
02:19:54 <zzo38> soupdragon: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
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02:31:08 <zzo38> Do you like this game? Do you have question/comment?
02:33:03 <zzo38> Good. KING game tells you the controls (there are two ways, either using the letter keys or the numpad keys). By contrast, 100LEVEL game does not tell you the controls and does not tell you many other things, either, so you have to figure it out by trying different things.
02:37:01 <zzo38> Do you mean in the game?
02:38:29 <soupdragon> I got 4 out of 50 for 990 turns and died
02:41:22 <zzo38> Ah, well. These kind of games you will often lose early playing the first few times until you learn it better.
02:41:25 <zzo38> Did you try the other game?
02:41:47 <soupdragon> im playing KING again because that one was too difficult
02:43:10 <zzo38> I can, however, answer some of your questions about 100LEVEL game so that you may learn it better. (Hint: The easiest game is probably difficulty level "VERY EASY" and mode "TURNS")
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02:44:10 <zzo38> I am going to water the tomato for a minute, just wait
02:44:45 <oerjan> with anyone other than zzo38 i would have thought was a euphemism
02:44:56 <oerjan> then again, maybe it is
02:45:52 <oerjan> or maybe it is literal _and_ a euphemism. but we don't want to think about that.
02:46:01 <soupdragon> oh I am doing a lot betting at KING second time
02:47:11 <Gregor-L> http://sibeli.us/ GO PLAY A COMPETING GAME lawl
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02:54:19 <zzo38> oerjan: It is literally what I meant.
02:54:54 <zzo38> soupdragon: Yes you probably go get better the second time, this is what happens at this game.
02:55:00 * oerjan knows tomatoes need a lot of water
02:55:28 <soupdragon> zzo38 what about that sokoban style game you made? does that only run on windows
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02:59:06 <soupdragon> http://www.dosgamesarchive.com/images/screenshots/small/rogue1.gif that is scary
03:01:28 <zzo38> soupdragon: Which game do you mean?
03:01:43 <soupdragon> I think it is the most recent one you've written
03:02:14 <zzo38> This one? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png
03:02:41 <zzo38> Windows only, although if you can figure out how to make the .GMD compile for other operating systems, you can try.
03:02:58 <zzo38> Later on I might also write that game (or something similar) using C and SDL, possibly.
03:03:36 <zzo38> I do have other games that will run on DOS, however. I also have some that are cross-platform (so they should run natively on Mac OS X)
03:04:55 <zzo38> For example, I have written some MegaZeux games. MegaZeux is available for many operating systems (including Nintendo DS, even).
03:08:54 <zzo38> Part I of the "Super ASCII MZX Town" series is available at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP You will need MegaZeux to run it. You can get it from the official site at http://vault.digitalmzx.net/show.php?id=1676 or you can compile my modified version from http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
03:09:12 <zzo38> My version has a lot of improvements, however Part I does not require it. Part II, however, does require to use my forked version of MegaZeux.
03:09:28 <zzo38> But Part II is not finished being written yet anyways.
03:10:07 <zzo38> You can even make your own games with MegaZeux, if you want to.
03:11:36 <Sgeo> Oh, alise left? :(
03:11:46 <zzo38> soupdragon: It runs natively on Mac OS X.
03:12:29 <zzo38> It also runs natively on many other operating systems as well.
03:12:57 <pikhq> It is freaking hard finding a good CJK font.
03:13:32 <zzo38> pikhq: What format of fonts are you looking for?
03:14:35 <zzo38> If you have Windows, Arial Unicode MS might do. (Or, if you need Japanese only, MS Gothic will do.)
03:14:40 <pikhq> I have gotten a decent Japanese font, but it freaking sucks for any Chinese that's not in use in Japanese. Which comes up a lot in my English Wikipedia browsing, and it's freaking jarring.
03:14:51 <pikhq> MS Gothic? MURDER.
03:14:58 <pikhq> That. Font. Sucks. Giant. Donkey. Cock.
03:15:13 <Gregor-L> Don't go impuning people who suck giant donkey cock.
03:15:17 <zzo38> pikhq: You are right about that. It does not work well for Chinese (it works only a little bit)
03:15:19 <pikhq> Gregor-L: It's not even antialiased.
03:15:22 <coppro> The word 'Giant' was completely unecessary
03:15:29 <zzo38> MS Mincho is another one if you prefer that style.
03:15:32 <pikhq> zzo38: It sucks for Japanese.
03:15:35 <Gregor-L> As coppro can attest, all donkey cock is giant.
03:15:38 <pikhq> As does MS Mincho.
03:15:42 <zzo38> Yes, it does have some Japanese things missing too.
03:15:54 <pikhq> I'm currently using TakaoMincho and TakaoGothic.
03:15:55 <zzo38> But it seems to work for most Japanese things!
03:16:14 <pikhq> For Japanese, *exceptionally*.
03:17:10 <pikhq> For Chinese, I'm trying to find something for this thing to fall back on that doesn't end up having more antialiasing artifacts than actual text.
03:19:54 <pikhq> Available in both Mincho *and* Gothic. Well, it's Chinese, so Ming and heiti.
03:20:51 <Gregor-L> Here's my solution: SPEAK AMERICAN
03:21:00 <pikhq> Currently, god knows why, this ends up using (and I am not making this up), a regular script font. *shudder*
03:22:13 <pikhq> Gregor-L: OK, then. 私 shall 話 米語, but 私 wo無 使 normal 正書y.
03:23:13 <Gregor-L> "but no use I wo positive normal form y" *brain axplote*. You put in only the untranslatable grammatical words from Japanese. Impressive.
03:24:28 <pikhq> I could've put more in, but I've not bothered learning the Chinese equivalents for grammatical words.
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03:24:39 <trap15> oh shit, awesome channel is awesome
03:24:58 <Gregor-L> Believe it or not, that's the most on-topic thing that's been said in this channel in months.
03:25:00 <pikhq> Gregor-L: BTW, "OK, then. I shall speak American, but I won't use normal orthography."
03:25:52 -!- Gregor-L has set topic: Howsabout we put "esoteric programming languages" SOMEWHERE in the topic? | Esperanto is still bannable! | Je peux utiliser une langue trangre aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:27:52 <Sgeo> Cxu vi parolas Esperanton?
03:31:16 * Sgeo forgot what the -igxi suffix means
03:31:20 <pikhq> CJK fonts seem to be obsessed with having awful bitmap versions for small font sizes...
03:31:51 <pikhq> It really doesn't help.
03:34:15 * Gregor-L forgot why anybody would speak Esper-LAMO HAW HAW I'M TWELVE
03:34:52 <lament> esperanto is great, IF YOU WANNA GET BANNED
03:34:58 <trap15> esoteric programming languages > esoteric spoken languages
03:35:41 <Sgeo> Why is Esperanto bad?
03:36:15 <lament> because of the consequences of speaking it
03:36:51 <zzo38> pikhq: Sometimes it is hard to draw kanji in small size, but kana should not be difficult to draw in small size
03:38:24 <Sgeo> Mi malbone parolas Esperanton.
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03:39:05 <Sgeo> Esperanton parolas malbone mi.
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03:40:17 <pikhq> "WenQuanYi Zen Hei" is both sans-serif and not crap.
03:52:19 <Gregor-L> Sans-serif? What does it even mean for a Chinese font to have serifs??? *brain axplote*
03:54:17 <pikhq> Gregor-L: That's called a "mincho" font.
03:54:44 <Gregor-L> Well thank you, that relabeling has answered ALL of my, err, question.
03:55:16 <pikhq> I'll find a picture.
03:55:42 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Chinese_fonts_juhuasample_type.PNG
03:56:04 <pikhq> Serif, sans-serif, regular script.
03:56:05 <pikhq> (from top to bottom)
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05:34:31 * pikhq gets very annoyed when seeing an unsupported glyph
05:34:47 <pikhq> Thus, I now have a hieroglyphs font.
05:35:01 <pikhq> Even though I am not likely to ever write Egyptian.
05:35:16 <coppro> it's a bad fallback font, but at least it exists
05:35:31 <pikhq> Unifont doesn't support everything.
05:35:48 <pikhq> Oh, sure, it supports the BMP, but there's much outside of the BMP.
05:35:52 <pikhq> For instance, Unifont has no support for Klingon.
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06:03:43 <coppro> if anyone ever has the guts to undertake a massive restructuring of the internet, it should be called The Inter2bes Project
06:04:18 <Sgeo> HELP ME, I'M ADDICTED TO D.ANDROID.COM
06:04:56 <coppro> switch to your browser
06:05:02 <coppro> then uninstall your browser
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06:07:34 <coppro> I should really be doing homework right now...
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16:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> My computer has very possibly /the/ stupidest button ever.
16:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> When pressed, it stops the touchpad working, as far as I can tell at the hardware level.
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18:05:46 <pikhq> My *god* fonts look better with proper hinting.
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18:06:13 <pikhq> ("proper" meaning "mmm, patent violating BCI hinting, rather than the autohinter")
18:13:42 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> My computer has very possibly /the/ stupidest button ever. <-- very useful
18:14:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, for example you may want to avoid touching it by mistake while typing
18:14:28 <AnMaster> and if you like me prefer the trackpoint...
18:15:24 <AnMaster> ...then it would be very useful if only lenovo didn't make it also disable the buttons for clicking with trackpoint (between keyboard and touchpad, there are additional touchpad buttons below the touchpad)
18:15:35 <AnMaster> the trackpoint itself works still
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19:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the algorithm for evaluation in the lambda calculus?
19:01:21 <pikhq> Which lambda calculus?
19:02:26 <soupdragon> what do you even mean? just beta reduce in a while loop
19:02:45 <pikhq> Should just be beta-reduction, yeah.
19:03:42 <pikhq> While !some-exit-condition?
19:07:09 <pikhq> While *doesn't* contain free vars?
19:07:21 <pikhq> Why, that's the exact opposite of what you want!
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19:08:12 <pikhq> Apparently he's not going to.
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20:46:47 <AnMaster> hm, writing up faux wikipedia entries (not posting them on wikipedia of course) for various typos on IRC can be quite fun.
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21:04:22 <pikhq> Why is it so damned hard to set up font substitution rules?
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21:11:06 * pikhq would *especially* love to be able to find out what font is being used to display a particular glyph. Why is this so hard?
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23:01:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there are several rules for how and how long to evaluate lambda calculus expressions, dependent on how you want.
23:02:37 <oerjan> beta-reduction as pikhq mentioned is one of the reductions, there is also eta-reduction which is sometimes useful. these are about _how_ to reduce a subterm.
23:03:57 <oerjan> however then there is the question of strict or lazy reduction, whether aim for a full normal, or just a head-normal form.
23:05:56 <oerjan> with head-normal and lazy reduction you never reduce b in a b alone, you just reduce a first and _if_ that results in a \var -> something, then you use beta on the whole
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23:06:29 <oerjan> with fully normal reduction, once a has been reduced you continue reducing b if they don't apply
23:06:44 <oerjan> *if beta reduction doesn't apply
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23:07:59 <oerjan> oh and there's something about weakly or strongly too, i think that is about whether to reduce _inside_ \x -> ...
23:08:53 <oerjan> goddammit google, couldn't you drop some of that new fancy stuff and be _quicker_ instead
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23:09:48 <oerjan> haskell's lazy reduction is to weak head normal form - basically it only reduces a and never inside \x -> ...
23:11:12 <oerjan> with _strict_ reduction you reduce b _before_ trying beta-reduction on a b, with lazy reduction you try beta reduction first (and reducing b probably never)
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23:14:51 <oerjan> ML's (ocaml or SML) reduction is strict
23:15:54 <oerjan> (for the lambda calculus parts)
23:16:51 <oerjan> and it has been remarked that haskell's seq operator makes eta reduction inconsistent with the language
23:17:16 <oerjan> because you can distinguish \x -> undefined from undefined with (\x -> undefined) `seq` whatever
23:18:13 <oerjan> !haskell (\x -> undefined) `seq` True
23:18:30 <oerjan> !haskell undefined `seq` True
23:18:31 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
23:18:56 <pikhq> seq makes Haskell have side effects. Evil, no?
23:19:09 <oerjan> that's not strictly a side effect
23:19:38 <oerjan> it's just breaking eta reduction, beta reduction still holds
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23:23:21 <oerjan> with _strong_ normal form you keep reducing everything until all subterms are reduced
23:24:37 <oerjan> even if that form exists, you may still have to be careful about the order you reduce in, so that it terminates. taking the leftmost option is always safest.
23:24:49 <oerjan> but not necessarily most efficient.
23:25:31 <oerjan> always leftmost option ~= lazy
23:26:39 <oerjan> things like fixpoint operators tend not to have strong normal forms, iirc
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23:29:27 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> while !contains-free-vars
23:29:42 <oerjan> also that's not a good condition, _truly_ free vars cannot be removed
23:30:03 <oerjan> while !contains-redexes is what you want for strong normal form
23:30:32 <oerjan> (a redex being anything of the form ((\x -> A) B)
23:30:58 * oerjan hopes Phantom_Hoover logreads
23:32:44 <oerjan> (if you use eta reduction too, then presumably \x -> A x where x not in A is also a redex
23:33:12 <oerjan> redex is short for reducible expression
23:34:13 * soupdragon is still waiting for Phantom_Hoover to answer the question "Do you know what beta reduction is"
23:34:33 <soupdragon> once he does, he will know what a beta redex is - and what the condition for the while loop should be
23:34:44 <oerjan> and we're of course ignoring alpha reduction entirely
23:41:52 <oerjan> <AnMaster> hm, writing up faux wikipedia entries (not posting them on wikipedia of course) for various typos on IRC can be quite fun.
23:41:59 <oerjan> there's always uncyclopedia.
23:46:11 <oerjan> well, unless you believe http://everything2.com/title/Uncyclopedia
23:47:39 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Unicycle-riding_bears
23:49:37 <oerjan> oh wait, uncyclopedia agrees.
23:49:48 <oerjan> google just censored it.
23:49:57 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Uncyclopedia:About
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07:08:47 <AnMaster> <oerjan> there's always uncyclopedia. <-- my attempts were somewhat less absurd than it, mine could actually pass for valid entries at a quick glance, something that really isn't true for uncyclopedia
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14:46:59 <Rugxulo> two links for alise (assuming he logreads):
14:47:00 <Rugxulo> http://www.staticramlinux.com/
14:47:08 <Rugxulo> http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?QBFORTH
14:47:59 <Rugxulo> oh, and fizzie, have you heard of llfunge? http://www.tilk.eu/
14:48:43 <fizzie> "Almost correct - it disallows program mutation."
14:48:49 <fizzie> That's a cop-out if I ever saw one. :p
14:48:57 <Rugxulo> I know, just wanted you to be aware of it
14:49:19 <fizzie> But no, hadn't heard of it before.
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14:54:08 <Deewiant> Befunge without program mutation is like C without variables
14:56:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't do any program mutation in fungot, so it's not *quite* that awful.
14:56:48 <fungot> fizzie: these unique items make us invincible! but you are true heros. the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos. the ocean palace?
14:57:50 <Deewiant> Well, like without functions then
14:59:20 <fizzie> I'm a bit surprised it's a JIT compiler and not an ahead-of-time compiler, though I guess it's understandable; it's a bit hard to predict what &&x will do.
15:02:04 <fizzie> It is at least partially.
15:02:17 <fizzie> There's a stack-stack, and a hashmap-based fungespace with three dimensions.
15:02:51 <Deewiant> Aye, I guess that'd make it -98
15:03:46 <fizzie> No sign of fingerprints, though.
15:04:36 <Rugxulo> unimplemented: ( ) ; = i j k o q t x y
15:04:59 <Deewiant> x unimplemented! Should be ahead-of-time :-P
15:05:06 <fizzie> Yes, I just found that bit.
15:05:47 <fizzie> It's also a bit strange at places.
15:06:11 <fizzie> The 'Stack' struct has a "void * mem" and then #define stack_top(stack) ((stack)->mem + (((stack)->ptr - 1) * (stack)->elsize))
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16:08:43 <pikhq> Deewiant: It's perfectly feasible to do Befunge without *program* mutation but with g and p. :P
16:09:09 <Deewiant> Yes, but it's sooooooo boring and lame
16:09:12 <pikhq> Though arguably this isn't Befunge, but rather a simpler, compilable language.
16:09:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, still not one that is trivial to compile
16:09:54 <AnMaster> you need to trace through every possible path
16:10:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, and if you ever use x it may not be compilable, depending on if you can figure out all possible ways to hit that x
16:10:41 <AnMaster> (and there the x itself may mess it up)
16:11:08 <AnMaster> in such cases best you could do would be threaded-code kind of thing, with one jump between each befunge instruction
16:11:32 <AnMaster> which is arguably still compiling, but not very interesting
16:11:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Possible*, not trivial. ;)
16:11:52 <pikhq> Also, what was x again?
16:12:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, pop y and x. Set delta from that
16:12:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, in trefunge it would be pop z, y, x
16:12:53 <pikhq> That can't be determined except by executing the code.
16:13:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, if you can figure out that it can only be hit with constant parameters ever...
16:13:41 <AnMaster> yes you still need to trace the program
16:13:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, but you would have to trace the program in any case if you want to compile it
16:14:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, and if you JIT then you can just as well handle g and p properly
16:14:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that is one case you can't determine it
16:15:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but if you had >11x right at the start of the program for example, and then was able to see it was not reachable from above/below/right...
16:15:29 <AnMaster> of course you also need to check all the other x
16:16:28 <pikhq> Can't be determined in general without (partial?) execution.
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16:18:15 <Gregor-L> Your face can't be determined in general without (partial?) execution.
16:18:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed. But don't you need that to compile befunge without g/p anyway?
16:19:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, that's called "parsing".
16:19:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise what would you compile? push(1); goto *next; ?
16:19:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but you still need to know which directions the IP travels in if you compile it
16:19:38 <pikhq> Yes. That's called *parsing*.
16:19:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, or are you suggesting generating code for all possible deltas and such?
16:19:50 <AnMaster> which might be feasible for befunge93
16:20:09 <pikhq> Isn't that what *you* were talking about?
16:20:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, no? I was talking about tracing from start, and when you hit stuff like | then make a branch in the generated code (generate code for each separately). You will need to take care of merging paths too of course.
16:21:16 <AnMaster> but that seems like the obvious way to do befunge93-without-selfmod to me
16:21:36 <pikhq> ... Yes, that's called parsing.
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16:21:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, you need tracing to do that, otherwise you would generate code for never-reached bits too
16:22:05 <AnMaster> plus you couldn't merge constants and so on
16:22:39 <pikhq> You seem to fail horribly at what the word "parsing" means.
16:22:45 <pikhq> And what "tracing" means.
16:22:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you mean that: 99+ v Comment never executed v other code <
16:23:00 <AnMaster> would be codegened in your solution
16:23:25 <AnMaster> there may be paths from above/below, but in this case all will pass through the spaces between those words
16:23:28 <pikhq> That will be *parsed* and then *compiled* into push(9);push(9);add(); /...
16:23:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes and what about the comment
16:24:03 <pikhq> The parser notes the "v" and goes down to continue parsing.
16:24:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, yep, it traces the program
16:24:11 <pikhq> *Like any sane parser*.
16:24:22 <pikhq> THATS NOT WHAT TRACING MEANS.
16:24:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is what tracing it means in jitfunge at least..
16:25:26 <pikhq> And it'd be wrong.
16:26:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is a form of partial execution still. You need to follow all paths in the code to figure out what can be reached. In something like C that wouldn't be the task of the parser (rather, some optimisation like DCE or such probably)
16:27:04 <pikhq> It is still the task of the parser to ignore comments.
16:27:22 <Deewiant> Actually that's often done by the lexer
16:27:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, actually for C it is the pre-processor, not the compiler.
16:27:32 <pikhq> Deewiant: Fair enough.
16:27:33 <AnMaster> and that is a different lexer or parser
16:27:56 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. The C preprocessor nixes comments, not the compiler.
16:28:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, but what about code like (from start of program): 1#v_ Comment otherwise unreachable from elsewhere ^
16:28:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, would that be the parser still?
16:29:22 <pikhq> It would obviously parse both possible paths there.
16:29:36 <pikhq> A DCE pass could then see that one of the branches won't be taken.
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16:30:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, agreed. But I still think parser seems like the wrong word. A parser generally doesn't need to do stuff like tracking if it has already parsed the same code (which this one would need to do)
16:31:09 <pikhq> It's a 2D parser, rather than a 1D one.
16:31:11 <Deewiant> Languages generally are executed in the same direction from start to finish
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16:31:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, and it does trace the program.
16:31:36 <Deewiant> pikhq: Even a Unefunge one might have to parse something from left to right and later right to left
16:31:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, in this context what would you call a tracer?
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16:31:51 <pikhq> Yes, but a "tracer" is a type of debugger.
16:31:54 <AnMaster> oh and do tell fizzie to fix that in jitfunge then
16:31:59 <pikhq> Or a type of JIT that notes which paths are fast.
16:32:05 <pikhq> Which paths should be fast.
16:32:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, in jitfunge it is iirc the bit that follows a code path before handing it of to the codegen.
16:32:49 <pikhq> Most languages don't go backwards. :)
16:33:05 <Deewiant> Just saying that "2D" isn't the defining quality
16:33:07 <AnMaster> also marking that part of the path as traced and so on
16:33:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh, that's *very* bloody confusing when dealing with a JIT.
16:33:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, the marking as used is so a g/p to it properly discards the previous compiled trace
16:34:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: He really should call it a "pather" or something.
16:34:50 <pikhq> It'll be an absolute headache if he decides to make his JIT trace.
16:35:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, it does that, but what meaning of trace do you have in mind? not the same presumably?
16:35:22 <AnMaster> I'm far from an expert on JITs
16:35:28 <AnMaster> I have no idea what you mean by tracing jit
16:35:43 <pikhq> A tracing JIT notes which code-paths are often-used so that it can optimise them.
16:35:56 <AnMaster> mhm, why is it called "tracing"?
16:36:01 <AnMaster> it has NOTHING to do with debuggers does it?
16:36:04 <Deewiant> Because it traces the execution.
16:36:08 <AnMaster> so all such should be renamed!
16:36:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, I just applied your logic to it. Same reasoning as above
16:37:05 <pikhq> The "tracer" as used in Jitfunge is not tracing execution. Merely discovering all possible paths for execution.
16:37:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, for why to call it parser, not tracer. This should be called hot-spot-JIT instead of tracing JIT.
16:37:37 <pikhq> HotSpot is a trademark of Oracle.
16:37:54 <pikhq> And refers to the HotSpot JVM, which traces.
16:38:14 <pikhq> Anyways, allow me to sum up this conversation.
16:38:20 <pikhq> You're an idiot, and your mother's a whore.
16:38:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, what? why does it slow down by outputting a debug trace? ;P
16:38:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because the debugging type of tracing takes much more work than just noting which branches are taken often. ;)
16:38:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway that doesn't follow. Debugger and JIT are not the same field. Nor is parsers and debuggers.
16:39:16 <AnMaster> seems just fine to call it a tracer since it does trace the program. A tracing parser if you prefer
16:39:24 <pikhq> Would you call something a "tracer" if it went through some C code and noted every possible branch?
16:39:35 <pikhq> If you would, you're a fucking idiot.
16:40:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends. If it just marks every if/while/whatever with "here is a branch" then probably not. If it follows all the code paths, maybe.
16:40:53 <pikhq> You're a fucking idiot.
16:41:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, it depends on what sort of thing it is used for I would say. Rather context dependant thus.
16:42:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, but generally I do think tracer makes more sense in a 2D language
16:43:10 <AnMaster> probably in unefunge too, so make it "multi-directional"
16:43:29 <pikhq> PARSER PARSER PARSER PARSER PARSER
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16:45:26 <AnMaster> hm j might be possible to compile stil
16:45:51 <AnMaster> it would be like a switch case for every instruction forward/backward in the IP path
16:47:03 <AnMaster> there are certainly many other tricky instructions...
16:47:04 <Deewiant> That's still complexity explosion if there are too many
16:48:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? Not much unless you have many "go away from path" instructions during it. if you have stuff like j1234 you would get something like switch { case 1: push(1); case 2: push(2); ... }
16:49:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and of course it could also just join in into any other trace already done, say you have j blah blah ^ blah, where that ^ happens to be in the middle of another trace just going straight up through it
16:50:04 <Deewiant> If you have a weird enough delta that j can hit your whole program; but I guess you're only considering cardinal deltas, in which case it's not that bad
16:50:09 <AnMaster> it could goto into the middle of that trace in the suitable place
16:50:33 <Deewiant> For only cardinal deltas, it can hit anywhere on that line/column/3d-equivalent
16:50:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I was ignoring x here yes since we concluded that in general it isn't feasible to statically compile if you have that in the program
16:51:16 <AnMaster> and yes "anywhere in the same line/col/3d-equiv" isn't too bad
16:52:12 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
16:52:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not too bad still, plus a smart compiler could put a bound on the possible number in some cases.
16:53:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and i, that wouldn't be easy to handle if it was allowed to modify code, which we must presume it isn't
16:53:14 <fungot> AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
16:53:53 <Deewiant> Well you pretty much have to implement g/p anyway, and if you're going to assume that they never modify code you might as well assume the same for i
16:54:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wasn't that the context for this discussion? <pikhq> Deewiant: It's perfectly feasible to do Befunge without *program* mutation but with g and p. :P <pikhq> Though arguably this isn't Befunge, but rather a simpler, compilable language.
16:54:46 <Deewiant> Which is why I pointed out that i is no problem
16:55:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sorry, misread that line about i not being a problem
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16:56:09 <AnMaster> anyway, what other instructions than x still pose a problem? j to some degree yes. but with x everything does more or less...
16:57:12 <Deewiant> Of the standard instructions, only x, I'm fairly sure
16:57:42 <AnMaster> well yes fingerprints might, but those are too numerous to consider.
16:58:10 <AnMaster> statically compiling the interleaving will most likely not work even if you don't optimise
16:58:23 <AnMaster> I mean, consider if the t is hit a number of time depending on a ?
16:59:25 <Deewiant> Programs with t tend to rely on self-modification anyway
16:59:38 <AnMaster> well, you could manage without it
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17:01:46 <AnMaster> sure the replacement for >< and other thread using p to remove one of those > or < would be a bit longer. something like >0# 0# g# _ code continues here
17:01:53 <AnMaster> should work to wait for something to change
17:02:00 <AnMaster> well for 0,0 it could be made shorter
17:02:20 <AnMaster> need a flag somewhere yes, but surely you can find some space in a 32-bit funge space easily even
17:09:25 <hiato> poiuy_qwert: Checked, yeah, used, no
17:15:53 <hiato> poiuy_qwert: "Using the q command(By poiuy_qwert): "
17:16:06 <hiato> so it sounds like you know more than you let on
17:18:59 <hiato> oh, lol, I got duped
17:19:12 <hiato> poiuy_qwert: I thought Lode hand made Zeta and you did only Gamma
17:20:24 <poiuy_qwert> hey theres no problem. you even knowing it exists makes me happy :P
17:21:54 <hiato> heh :) One of the first I toyed with due to the awesome looking befunge interp
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17:38:45 <poiuy_qwert> I don't think many people are familiar with it so don't feel left out ;P
17:39:21 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, "This language was designed to be very functional." <-- wait a second, not functional as in lisp or haskell is it?
17:40:27 <poiuy_qwert> functional as it in can do a lot of stuff, not as in functions/procedures/methods
17:41:14 <AnMaster> that befunge interpreter on the wikipage for zetaplex, 93 I assume?
17:42:02 <poiuy_qwert> I believe so. At the time I made that I didn't know there where variations *doh*
17:42:23 <AnMaster> when was it made? before 1998 perhaps?
17:42:59 <poiuy_qwert> when was what made, the befunge interpreter?
17:44:16 <poiuy_qwert> heh, well Zetaplex was made in 2007 :P so sometime after that.
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17:54:49 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, is "This is a basic tic-tac-toe game (does not work with the current public interpreter, but the author will release the updated interpreter soon)" still valid?
17:56:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw as far as I can tell fungot only uses x in comments
17:56:14 <fungot> AnMaster: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alon
17:56:33 <fungot> AnMaster: but, we are far outnumbered! yes. well, i better! whoosh! i wonder how everyone! humans! they're my friends!
17:56:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, hey! saw that! A perfect one.
17:56:55 <AnMaster> (as in, not just part of the line with it, the entire line!)
17:59:01 <poiuy_qwert> AnMaster: in my old-new interpreter :P there are 3 interpreters, 1 public, an updated version of the public one that was never released, and now I'm working on the new one with a specification update. with a little tweaking it will work on the new interpreter though
17:59:25 <poiuy_qwert> so currently noone can run it unless i find that middle interpreter :P
18:03:39 <fizzie> Fix what in jitfunge? (There's too much context for me to read.)
18:03:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, that you call that part of it "tracing" iirc
18:08:44 <fizzie> I think it's a reasonable use of the word; I call "tracing" the part that interprets Funge-98 code, but also collects the instructions into a trace that can be JIT'd into code. It's quite a bit like what I understand is called a tracing JIT compiler.
18:08:57 <fizzie> It's not exactly a parser, since it also executes the code.
18:10:47 <fizzie> Admittedly I misuse the word a bit in that I use it also in the static compiler, where it's a lot more like a parser. I offer as an excuse that it does resemble the act of someone "tracing" the way the code would be executed with pen and paper, metaphoristically.
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19:47:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, I disagree about any excuse being needed
19:47:52 <AnMaster> it was pikhq who thought that it was badly named
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20:01:42 <fizzie> Well, for the static compiler it is a bit less justified.
20:06:44 <hiato> anyone care to bash/grant constructive criticism to a new esolang of mine? or, at least the loose collection of ideas I had
20:07:08 <pikhq> hiato: Yes, it sucks and you should be ashamed.
20:07:28 <hiato> http://dpaste.com/193334/
20:08:11 <hiato> currently it's fugly, and I cant understand why my ideas aren't playing nicely together
20:16:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, btw you said parsers removed comments, I wish to differ. I'm pretty sure ick's parser does not
20:16:13 <AnMaster> they are after all compiled into runtime syntax errors
20:16:23 <AnMaster> (if they are executed that is)
20:17:01 <AnMaster> (and iirc that will only happen if you do strange things with reinstate)
20:22:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Quite obviously, it depends upon the language in question.
20:26:06 <calamari> hiato: () [] {} don't match.. maybe that is making it look bad to you?
20:27:23 <hiato> calamari: Possible...hmmm, yeah. Now I just think it's not a great way of combining my ideas
20:28:09 <AnMaster> <hiato> currently it's fugly, and I cant understand why my ideas aren't playing nicely together <-- it reminds me of intercal
20:28:40 <hiato> but, erm, thanks :)
20:28:47 <AnMaster> hiato, mX.~7|$!)~:-3?4(;! however is extremely close to intercal, there is something missing but can't pinpoint it
20:29:06 <AnMaster> not completely sure about that though
20:29:10 <calamari> I've been trying to come up with a lang that permits maximum expression in minimum code space
20:29:22 <AnMaster> calamari, like, the reverse of intercal?
20:29:48 <AnMaster> also it sounds like a language perfect for golfing with
20:30:10 <calamari> AnMaster: yes exactly.. a golf language
20:30:16 <hiato> yeah, I guess the trouble is that case stuff, need to find a better encoding. As in, the current requires vars with names with at least three letters to express of possibilties
20:30:28 <AnMaster> calamari, isn't there one already?
20:30:38 <calamari> but perl wont fit in my watch.. I have the constraint of 900 byte states :)
20:31:20 <AnMaster> as in RAM usage being 900 bytes at most or what?
20:31:39 <calamari> golfscript looks like a winner
20:32:09 <calamari> rom is something like 24k.. but 900 bytes at a time, page swapped
20:32:29 <calamari> the program code will have to share with the ram
20:34:59 <AnMaster> calamari, what sort of device is this?
20:35:17 <calamari> Timex Data Link USB wristwatch
20:36:00 <AnMaster> it's quite insane to write programs for it
20:36:06 <AnMaster> with such a sucky architecture
20:36:38 <pikhq> calamari: I... Think that might be too little space for a Forth.
20:36:55 <AnMaster> calamari, I can't think of any good reason for 1025 bytes of address space...
20:37:04 <calamari> maybe some type of asm is the best I can do
20:37:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: 125 bytes.
20:37:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, 125 bytes of ram and 900 bytes of rom
20:37:36 <pikhq> The RAM is... Registers.
20:38:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, are they treated as memory mapped?
20:38:15 <pikhq> Not "is", but, good god. There's CPUs with more memory in its registers.
20:39:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, you see, I can't figure out a good reason to have 1025 bytes in total, it means you will need an extra bit to address the last byte.
20:39:28 <calamari> now that I think about it.. some machine code would be the smallest
20:39:30 <AnMaster> either you would use it fully or stop at 1024
20:39:55 <calamari> but not the native machine code, it's bloated
20:39:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Seriously.
20:40:29 <calamari> anmaster there is more ram than 125 bytes
20:40:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, how do you address that ram
20:40:37 <calamari> but most of it is used by the watch os
20:41:03 <AnMaster> calamari, because 1025 bytes of address space made no sense indeed.
20:41:15 <calamari> I have no idea why the states are 900 bytes tho
20:41:31 <calamari> seems like some power of 2 would have made more sense
20:41:45 <AnMaster> calamari, how much ram is there in total?
20:42:01 <AnMaster> including the watch OS bit I mean
20:42:26 <calamari> 1 min, need to get out my calc
20:43:25 <calamari> actually nm, I don't feel like adding all that up
20:43:35 <calamari> 2048 bytes, plus some extra in the lcd
20:43:54 <AnMaster> calamari, well if when after you add it up you get 900 bytes left to the next power of two that is a good reason for 900 bytes
20:44:05 <AnMaster> it means a non-power-of-two ram size though
20:46:46 <calamari> oh wow.. the code is being copied into ram.. so you are absolutely right, I should be able to use any unused code space as extra ram
20:47:06 <calamari> dang, wish I'd realized this before
20:48:51 <AnMaster> calamari, hm if it is a rom you can't write it more than once
20:49:00 <AnMaster> presumably you mean eeprom or whatever
20:50:02 <AnMaster> calamari, and you don't want to rewrite some of those too often what with the limited cycle count (at least for flash, not completely sure for eeprom)
20:52:10 <AnMaster> or rather, flash is a subtype of eeprom
20:52:11 <calamari> It is a specific type of EEPROM (electrically-erasable programmable read-only memory) that is erased and programmed in large blocks; in early flash the entire chip had to be erased at once.
20:52:36 <AnMaster> but yes eeprom have limited cycle count too
20:53:18 <calamari> I have an eprom writer and eraser also .. I have no idea how many cycles you get there but it's fun to erase with the uv :)
20:53:23 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DSCN0411.JPG <-- the wasted space makes me sad
20:53:42 <AnMaster> calamari, do you still use it?
20:53:50 <AnMaster> I can't see any good reason for it any more
20:54:13 <AnMaster> calamari, computer? or something else?
20:54:33 <calamari> yeah it's an early 80's gaming system
20:54:38 <AnMaster> if a computer I don't see why it doesn't use something like floppies...
20:55:17 <calamari> it's actually very similar to the atari 800, which does have an optional floppy drive.. but the game system only accepts cartridges
20:56:25 <AnMaster> calamari, "EPROMs had a limited but large number of erase cycles; the silicon dioxide around the gates would accumulate damage from each cycle, making the chip unreliable after several thousand cycles. EPROM programming is slow compared to other forms of memory. Because higher-density parts have little exposed oxide between the layers of interconnects and gate, ultraviolet erasing becomes less practical for very large memories. Even dust insid
20:56:25 <AnMaster> e the package can prevent some cells from being erased."
20:56:49 <AnMaster> so be careful with it unless you can easily find replacements
20:57:18 <AnMaster> calamari, how often do you reprogram it?
20:57:24 <AnMaster> and what do you reprogram it for
20:57:36 <calamari> not often, most development is via emulator
20:58:08 <calamari> for testing out on the actual system, mostly for joystick and color issues
20:58:35 <AnMaster> calamari, I can't imagine why anyone still develop for it :D
20:58:49 <AnMaster> calamari, besides, most people will only have emulator
20:59:04 <calamari> people prgram for the atari 2600 still too
20:59:31 <AnMaster> calamari, the most I have done has been porting ick to Mac OS classic
20:59:36 <calamari> I have a mostly finished game for the 2600
20:59:50 <AnMaster> it kind of works, but only on real old macs, not in emulators
21:00:02 <AnMaster> get a system crash when compiling one of the files for ick in sheepshaver
21:00:09 <AnMaster> and well, I doubt it would work on 68k
21:00:19 <AnMaster> I only used sheepshaver and my old first-model ibook for it
21:00:37 <AnMaster> calamari, ick sometimes generate legal C code that mpw can't compile too
21:01:21 <AnMaster> calamari, but apart from that one file (I think it was some yacc or bison file) mpw under sheepshaver can compile it
21:01:46 <AnMaster> calamari, it might work for 68k with some changes to the makfile
21:02:04 <AnMaster> but since sheepshaver crashes with 68k binaries most of the time I haven't tried
21:02:30 <calamari> so I wouldn't be able to test it for you, sorry
21:02:33 <AnMaster> calamari, I think it is no-cost
21:02:43 <AnMaster> as in, you can download some *.img from apple
21:02:59 <AnMaster> calamari, never looked for old 68k versions. Try that site... what was the name
21:03:06 <calamari> I think I have os 8.6 or whatever the last was that worked on 68k
21:03:10 <AnMaster> a lot of old abandonware for mac
21:03:30 <calamari> I'll have to pull out my disks and retrieve an image
21:03:45 <AnMaster> calamari, ah http://www.macintoshgarden.org/ might have it
21:04:14 <calamari> that was something cool that apple did.. made its oses freeware when they became obsolete
21:04:25 <AnMaster> http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-programmer%E2%80%99s-workshop
21:04:40 <AnMaster> calamari, well I don't think OS 9 ever became freeware
21:04:47 <AnMaster> it is the one I have in sheepshaver
21:04:54 <AnMaster> but I had an old legal copy of it
21:04:57 <calamari> doesn't matter.. os 9 doesn't run on 68k iirc
21:05:13 <AnMaster> calamari, well yes, but I wanted to play ppc games, not 68k ones!
21:05:25 <AnMaster> calamari, to be specific, the old avernum series
21:06:11 <AnMaster> you might have played exile? Avernum was basically the same with upgraded graphics (isomeric instead of top-down/sideways mix) and such
21:06:29 <calamari> I don't recall, what was exile
21:06:48 <AnMaster> calamari, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile_%28video_game_series%29
21:06:53 <calamari> and do you remember a game where you ran around inside a cave collecting jewels?
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21:07:06 <AnMaster> calamari, no, but I played lots of modern such games
21:07:32 <AnMaster> it isn't quite as common as remakes of snake, pacman, space invaders and so on
21:08:03 <AnMaster> boulderdash was one I played iirc
21:08:05 <calamari> nope haven't played exile, looks neat
21:08:20 <AnMaster> calamari, also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avernum_%28series%29
21:09:14 <AnMaster> calamari, which is basically same as exile but 1) more well balanced (exile had some issues with being very easy in parts and way too hard in others), 2) better graphics 3) a nice NPC dialog UI, especially Exile 1 had a bloody stupid UI for it
21:09:48 <calamari> I liked not actually having graphics, as silly as that sounds
21:10:01 <AnMaster> well I love nethack if that is what you mean
21:10:07 <AnMaster> calamari, don't think I ever played moria
21:11:07 <AnMaster> ah I know of that, tested it too iirc
21:11:49 <calamari> angband had too many races and objects, better to keep it simple sometimes
21:12:24 <AnMaster> calamari, oh iirc mpw came on segmented *.img
21:12:28 <AnMaster> so that may be annoying to download
21:12:35 <AnMaster> also atm I'm trying to located the port
21:13:30 <AnMaster> iirc the changes consisted in: build system for mpw + a few small patches
21:13:41 <AnMaster> ick is written in relatively portable C mostly
21:14:03 <AnMaster> calamari, oh and it won't compile for you since MPW tools can't invoke other MPW tools
21:14:11 <AnMaster> so it will print the command into the mpw shell
21:16:29 <AnMaster> calamari, oh and you have to convert any INTERCAL files to use CR for line ending
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21:18:10 <AnMaster> calamari, I can make a patch against ick-0.29 if you want
21:19:28 <AnMaster> calamari, most of the patch is handling the crazy path stuff
21:20:02 <AnMaster> you see, ick generated paths like foo//bar.c instead of foo/bar.c (harmless) but foo:bar.c != foo::bar.c
21:20:08 <AnMaster> the latter is like foo/../bar.c
21:20:37 <AnMaster> also absolute path is messy to figure out
21:20:55 <AnMaster> :foo <-- also file in current dir
21:21:18 <AnMaster> or rather, that last one should be /mnt/foo/bar
21:21:44 <calamari> still copying the hard drive image off cd
21:24:20 <AnMaster> calamari, oh and yes you will need to change build system for pre-PPC. the ppc C compiler and the 68k ones had completely different command line options
21:24:57 <AnMaster> afraid I can't help much there. but iirc it was simple to get help in mpw
21:27:32 <AnMaster> calamari, I can't pastebin this file because line ending must not be converted in the patch, it is very important that the files that have CR continue to do so
21:27:40 <AnMaster> so I'm going to upload it elsewhere
21:28:27 <calamari> okay looks like I do have mpw installed
21:28:49 <AnMaster> calamari, does it work? try some example included
21:28:55 <AnMaster> also helps you figure out how it works
21:29:03 <AnMaster> because I haven't written a readme or anything
21:31:48 <AnMaster> calamari, ok remembered an old shell I have, putting it up there
21:32:28 <AnMaster> note this won't work with ipv6 (they have an AAAA entry but it seems broken atm, mentioned it to the guy who owns it, he is asleep atm though): http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff
21:32:40 <AnMaster> calamari, needs to be applied on ick 0.29
21:33:15 <AnMaster> calamari, the build system used will be in the dir macppc, and yes you will need to do something about the makefile :(
21:33:19 <calamari> btw stupid question.. what is ick?
21:33:57 <AnMaster> calamari, what else would one port to classic mac os
21:34:20 <AnMaster> ick at least offers a challenge
21:34:35 <calamari> okay having trouble getting my networking going in the emulator
21:34:41 <AnMaster> and ais523 (ick maintainer) mentioned several times it even works on DJGPP
21:34:49 <AnMaster> so thus I had to take the challenge
21:34:55 <AnMaster> calamari, I used the shared disk thingy
21:35:05 <AnMaster> calamari, isn't there a volume called "unix" or such on the desktop?
21:35:22 <AnMaster> calamari, well where did you set it to point on the real file system?
21:35:27 <calamari> but I was to get netowrking going anyhow lol
21:35:33 <AnMaster> just put something in there and it will be visible
21:35:51 <AnMaster> calamari, iirc that was quite easy hm...
21:36:46 <AnMaster> calamari, oh the mac port uses a hand written config.h :)
21:36:56 <AnMaster> it might need to be fixed to work on 68k
21:37:05 <AnMaster> I wouldn't be surprised if it needed even
21:37:27 <AnMaster> calamari, oh and the makefile is in macroman :)
21:37:35 <AnMaster> I do hope patch handles that properly
21:37:39 <AnMaster> I created the diff with bzr diff
21:38:20 <AnMaster> calamari, huh? what did you do?
21:38:35 <calamari> it think it might just be trying to active dhcp
21:38:53 <AnMaster> calamari, if you want I could .img the entire build dir (.img is likely to be most likely to preserve the encoding and everything else) but the object files will be ppc of course
21:39:02 <AnMaster> still, it might work better than that diff
21:39:32 <calamari> 403 forbidden on http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff
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21:40:41 <AnMaster> # Download C-INTERCAL from this server.
21:40:41 <AnMaster> # Download C-INTERCAL via gopher (IPv6 only).
21:41:15 <AnMaster> http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/
21:41:21 <AnMaster> calamari, hope that helps anyway
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21:43:18 <calamari> can't seem to connect to http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/
21:43:42 <AnMaster> calamari, what about http://c.intercal.org.uk/
21:44:10 <AnMaster> calamari, ah the ipv6 works but not the ipv4
21:44:28 <AnMaster> calamari, get an ipv6 tunnel, or wait a few minutes for me to upload it on that shell as well
21:45:53 <AnMaster> calamari, okay it should be up on the same place as my patch
21:46:00 <Ilari> There are gopher clients that support IPv6?
21:46:53 <AnMaster> calamari, now I hope it applies to that one. If not try running autoreconf and then applying it. It seems I might have done that before starting working, and who knows what that might have done to config.h.in and such
21:47:03 <Ilari> Got direct link to download? :-)
21:47:08 <calamari> cool I think I will have to sign up and get a shell with them
21:47:08 <AnMaster> calamari, but even if it fails on any *.in files it should work well
21:47:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, and it is on http://c.intercal.org.uk/
21:47:33 <AnMaster> "# Download C-INTERCAL from this server.
21:47:33 <AnMaster> # Download C-INTERCAL via gopher (IPv6 only)."
21:47:49 <AnMaster> Ilari, note that very server seems broken over ipv4 but works like a charm over ipv6
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21:47:59 <AnMaster> gopher://gopher.intercal.org.uk/1C-INTERCAL <-- works for me
21:48:13 <AnMaster> calamari, and who is it you have to get a shell with?
21:48:28 <AnMaster> calamari, pubacc.wilcox-tech.com ? or what?
21:49:11 * Rugxulo isn't nearly the Atari enthusiast he probably should be
21:49:47 <AnMaster> calamari, quota is 100 MB but it depends on a lot on all-around niceness. It is a bit like "we don't add rules until we see they are needed"
21:50:05 <AnMaster> calamari, very nice shell, though I have access to some more on that server (involved in running an irc network who that guy who owns that shell is also involved in)
21:50:14 <AnMaster> don't have root on that one though
21:50:30 * Rugxulo blindly assumes calamari is heavy into AtariAge forums
21:50:37 <calamari> I am hosting with another place and they have an insane amount of restrictions
21:50:50 <calamari> haven't been on there in a while
21:51:25 <AnMaster> calamari, the broken ipv6 annoys me on pubacc though. *goes to use one of the other domain names and hopes there aren't and weird vhosts*
21:52:32 <pikhq> calamari: Not primarily.
21:52:45 <AnMaster> but well, we will need it soon
21:52:47 <pikhq> However, it damned well *will* become common sometime soon.
21:52:57 <pikhq> We've got about a year left of IPv4 adress space.
21:52:57 <calamari> I wonder if I could even get an ipv6 address from cox
21:53:23 <AnMaster> calamari, I use a sixxs tunnel
21:53:42 <AnMaster> works well, is fast (the end point for the tunnel is quite near here)
21:53:47 <Rugxulo> and yes, Ick works with DJGPP, I tested it remember?
21:54:12 <AnMaster> calamari, http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com lists the rules iirc
21:54:25 <pikhq> It'll take a bit longer for us to be "absolutely out", as that is when the IANA runs out of allocations to RIRs.
21:54:46 <AnMaster> calamari, and I will be *very* *very* annoyed if you do anything like resource hogging on it, since one of the ircds run on it.
21:54:50 <pikhq> And, as such, the RIRs will still be able to make allocations for at least a bit of time.
21:55:27 <AnMaster> calamari, not mine, but I know the owner personally and I'm involved in that irc network as I said above
21:55:29 <calamari> nah I just have a simple webpage
21:55:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> calamari, very nice shell, though I have access to some more on that server (involved in running an irc network who that guy who owns that shell is also involved in)
21:55:51 <calamari> traffic is probably next to none
21:56:00 <AnMaster> well sure, I'm sure he will be okay
21:56:06 <calamari> actually I bet the mnost traffic is via esolangs.org
21:56:18 <AnMaster> calamari, it is however in US, so US laws and such would apply
21:56:24 <AnMaster> to whatever extent that applies
21:56:50 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well I was thinking about DMCA and so on
21:57:08 <AnMaster> and I very much doubt the owner would like that
21:57:37 * Rugxulo missed what exactly you two were trying to accomplish ... ??
21:57:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, read the patch in http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ :)
21:57:56 <calamari> I am trying to compile ick on 68k
21:58:11 <Rugxulo> so how did Atari 2600 and 5200 come up?
21:58:13 <AnMaster> but it will need some modification for 68k mpw
21:59:04 <Rugxulo> P.S. (to calamari) AnMaster wasn't even alive when 5200 came out! (I think)
21:59:15 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, depends. when did it come out?
21:59:45 <Rugxulo> I forget, '82 or '84 ?? must've been '82 or such as 1984 brought about the crash, and 7800 came out two years late ('86) when NES got popular
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22:00:05 <AnMaster> well, 1986 was before my time too
22:00:23 <Rugxulo> I'm not exactly well-versed myself ('79), but I do have a JagCD and (broken) Lynx II
22:00:54 <Rugxulo> JagCD and Lynx? more Atari machines
22:00:56 <calamari> Atari Jaguar with the toilet attachment
22:01:11 <AnMaster> calamari, how would CD stand for toilet?
22:01:22 <Rugxulo> no, it looks like a toilet (finds Wikipedia pic)
22:01:38 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar_CD
22:01:50 <Rugxulo> had a 68000, too (among others)!
22:02:10 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that looks surprisingly modern
22:02:19 <AnMaster> I mean using a cd instead of a cartridge
22:02:21 <Rugxulo> it was their last machine before "reverse merger" (go bye bye)
22:02:36 <Rugxulo> 1995-ish for the CD part, 1993 for the base cart part
22:02:43 <calamari> was the first 64 bit gaming system (well mostly 64 bit)
22:02:45 <Rugxulo> same guy who did built-in VLM in JagCD did one for XBox 360
22:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> There are extremely minimal imperative, stack-based and functional programming.
22:03:02 <Rugxulo> mostly, yes ... even though everybody disagrees (as if it matters)
22:03:32 <Rugxulo> read the article, silly, it explains it ;-)
22:04:29 <AnMaster> "and a Myst demo disc. " <-- what?
22:04:40 <Rugxulo> Myst runs on many machines
22:04:58 <Rugxulo> the demo disc was just a "demo" (incomplete game) that came with the hardware with a few other CDs too (Tempest 2k soundtrack)
22:05:02 <AnMaster> bundled with an old performa iirc
22:05:09 <calamari> lol for that matter, you could make myst in dhtml
22:05:28 <AnMaster> calamari, with html5 and the video stuff yes
22:05:36 <Rugxulo> Blue Lightning (CD game), Tempest 2000 soundtrack (CD audio for VLM), Myst "demo", oh and Vid Grid (CD music video game)
22:05:43 <AnMaster> it did include videos for moving parts as bit of the screen in some places
22:05:44 <Rugxulo> that's what mine came with
22:05:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:06:00 <calamari> yeah it did, but videos are easy these days
22:06:11 <AnMaster> calamari, oh and myst was and is a good game
22:06:20 <Rugxulo> I never even beat it, got fairly close though
22:06:33 <Rugxulo> got stuck in some underground tunnel, couldn't figure out what the heck to do
22:06:40 <Rugxulo> probably need to just get a walkthrough one of these days ;-)
22:06:41 <AnMaster> calamari, and that safe code in the log house? I found it on first try by pure chance
22:06:59 <Rugxulo> kinda tedious game, but whatever
22:07:03 * Rugxulo likes arcade games a bit more
22:07:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh that underground tunnel, different sounds for north/south/east/west iirc
22:07:24 <Rugxulo> Lynx had many more good arcade ports, though
22:07:24 <calamari> I still have the cd.. maybe it works under wine lol
22:07:28 <AnMaster> and combinations for different directions
22:07:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:07:39 <AnMaster> so you could rotate for the right direction
22:07:46 <AnMaster> calamari, only if quicktime does I bet
22:07:51 <AnMaster> since it used that at least on mac
22:08:03 <AnMaster> wouldn't surprise me if it used qt for windows too
22:08:40 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, if you were in that tunnel in some vessel that is
22:08:57 <Rugxulo> heck, somebody even ported Tempest 2000 to DOS, but all I've ever found was a demo
22:09:21 <Rugxulo> although somebody else remade it as Tsunami 2010 for Windows (but heavily depended on gfx card for some stuff)
22:09:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:09:31 <Rugxulo> shooting alien bug thingies coming out of a vortex / hole
22:09:43 <calamari> I knew a guy that ported Tempest to an enhanced dvd player
22:09:52 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_2000
22:10:06 <Rugxulo> Minter did Tempest 2000 (Jag) and Tempest 3000 (Nuon DVD)
22:10:16 <AnMaster> with just different enemies I mean
22:10:37 <Rugxulo> same tube / hole idea, but with many different enemies and obstacles
22:10:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, make an esoteric one
22:10:49 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_3000
22:11:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I always preferred RPGs
22:11:03 <calamari> I should say I knew the guy working on nuon
22:11:17 <Rugxulo> "the guy" ... who did what?
22:11:28 <Rugxulo> boring? no way, it's a classic, seriously!
22:11:31 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_3000
22:11:39 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, so is pacman, it is also boring
22:11:49 <Rugxulo> Pac-Man is very hard, that's why it's boring (to me)
22:12:01 <Rugxulo> Ms. Pac-Man is a bit more fun
22:12:02 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I want a story in my games. Zelda (not zelda 1 though), secret of mana, games like that
22:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Except it has enough variation that if you don't die for long enough it gets entertaining.
22:12:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, nethack is technically interesting and somewhat varied.
22:12:33 <Rugxulo> arcade games usually don't have stories, they are good mostly for quick sessions, trying to get high scores, completing levels, etc.
22:12:37 <AnMaster> plus there are lots of ways to die
22:12:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, funny ones too
22:12:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but ascended a few times :)
22:12:52 <Rugxulo> you can't even die in Myst (although you might want to, heh)
22:13:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I mean outside debug mode
22:13:07 <AnMaster> but sure debug mode is interesting
22:13:14 <AnMaster> riding a black dragon for example
22:13:26 <AnMaster> which can happen otherwise too
22:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And then it was only because I found a /oD in a bones file.
22:13:45 <Rugxulo> BTW, worst . game . ever ... Presswurst (DON'T even bother reading about it)
22:13:51 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> you can't even die in Myst (although you might want to, heh) <-- you can loose the game though
22:14:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, there are two ways to do it iirc
22:14:17 <Rugxulo> lose as in not doing such and such correctly at the end? (yeah, I know)
22:14:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but myth is interesting, there is a story to it
22:14:30 <AnMaster> if you read the books in the library and so on
22:14:31 <Rugxulo> it's interesting, just somewhat easy to get lost
22:14:49 <Rugxulo> I don't like games that let you run around in circles, esp. since I always end up doing that out of confusion!
22:14:50 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, nah, I have a paper with the codes somewhere, wrote them down to make replay easier
22:14:59 <Rugxulo> me too, but it's still tough
22:15:09 <AnMaster> because yes rotating that tower to get the codes, that is boring
22:15:41 <Rugxulo> it's been at least four or five years since I've played it
22:16:16 <Rugxulo> I wonder if Tsunami 2010 works in WINE
22:16:37 <Rugxulo> "opengl accelerator recommended" ... probably a dealbreaker
22:16:51 <Rugxulo> I remember it liked one video card, the other not so much :-/
22:17:00 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
22:17:30 <calamari> Rugxulo: did you get lost when you first played Doom? I did, it was great
22:18:07 <Rugxulo> can't remember, been a long time since I first played Doom
22:18:27 <Rugxulo> nowadays I'd rather play FreeDoom ;-)
22:21:12 <AnMaster> calamari, tell me if you get ick working, it should be possible to base the build system on the ppc one, if you get it to work please send me a patch and I shall try to integrate it so both works
22:21:31 <AnMaster> calamari, oh and that .pax.gz, it can be unpacked with tar
22:21:47 <AnMaster> I'll leave it to ais523 to explain what pax is
22:22:01 <AnMaster> or anyone else who knows the history of POSIX, tar and pax
22:22:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes mostly, but it was done because there were so many incompatible tar versions out there
22:22:47 <AnMaster> iirc pax is mostly tar compatible too
22:23:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well pax was a compromise because no vendor wanted to switch to another vendors' tar format
22:23:40 <AnMaster> but yes iirc there is a cpio←→tar war
22:23:54 <AnMaster> don't think pax is involved in it
22:24:07 <AnMaster> calamari, iirc rpm are cpio-based too
22:24:08 <Rugxulo> pax involved in war? that would be irony ;-)
22:25:00 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_%28Unix%29
22:25:05 <AnMaster> calamari, and I prefer arch linux
22:25:23 <Rugxulo> lzip is gaining in popularity, too
22:25:44 <AnMaster> "Rather than sort out the incompatible options that have crept up between tar and cpio, along with their implementations across various versions of UNIX, the IEEE designed a new archive utility."
22:25:52 <pikhq> calamari: xz is a compression format that uses the LZMA algorithm.
22:26:06 <AnMaster> though that ignores the tar-tar wars too
22:26:09 <pikhq> It's the defacto successor to the "lzma" program.
22:26:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, and incompatible with lzma
22:26:33 <Rugxulo> .7z is the official format, but it's not really 100% *nix friendly (he focuses a lot on Win32)
22:26:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in, lzma can't unpack xz, annoying on my jaunty laptop
22:26:36 <pikhq> Though the xz program supports lzma files just fine.
22:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do we need 20-odd archive-compression combinations?
22:26:57 <Rugxulo> p7zip should be able to unpack .xz if you use 9.04, but sadly that version is fairly old and buggy
22:26:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, what was wrong with .lzma?
22:27:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: I don't recall.
22:27:13 <calamari> no clue.. gz and bz2 seem fine
22:27:19 <Rugxulo> lzma isn't a real format, just a raw data dump (I think?)
22:27:33 <Rugxulo> .7z (LZMA) is much much stronger and faster than Bzip2
22:27:34 <pikhq> Rugxulo: No, it had headers and everything, I though.\
22:27:50 <Rugxulo> well it lacks something (permissions? Unicode? large files?)
22:28:07 <calamari> what does it strip another 100 bytes off? lol
22:28:21 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, .lzma isn't an archive format
22:28:32 <Rugxulo> the biggest block size in Bzip2 is 900k, I think 7-Zip can go into the GB for dictionaries
22:28:33 <AnMaster> after all both are used over tar
22:28:48 <pikhq> calamari: Significantly better compression than bzip2, and much faster decompression.
22:28:51 <Rugxulo> only because of *nix permissions, on Win32 nobody cares about .tar
22:29:18 <Rugxulo> 7-Zip can do Bzip2 compression in .7z, .Zip, or .bz2 formats
22:29:31 <Rugxulo> or use LZMA, LZMA2, PPMD, etc.
22:30:07 <pikhq> *Ah*. The .lzma format had stupid, arbitrary limits on the compression options for the LZMA algorithm.
22:30:13 <Rugxulo> in fact, I think the fastest way to compress with 7-Zip is "-mx1 -m0=bzip2"
22:30:52 <calamari> okay installed xz, so now I can do tar -Jcvf :)
22:30:52 <Rugxulo> (sees topic) "Esperanto is still bannable!" ... huh??
22:31:11 <pikhq> (such as limits on the dictionary size)
22:31:40 <pikhq> Rugxulo: *Surely* gzip is faster.
22:32:00 <Rugxulo> probably, it only uses 32k dictionaries (or whatever)
22:32:19 <Rugxulo> but 7-Zip has its own improved Deflate, even eeks out a smaller file ;-)
22:32:38 <pikhq> What with gzip being one of the faster compression formats in common use and all...
22:32:45 <pikhq> calamari: Strictly better, IIRC.
22:32:47 <Rugxulo> Rar is proprietary, only Unrar is semi-free
22:32:56 <Rugxulo> but it's okay, from what I hear
22:33:08 <calamari> yeah.. rar is used a lot in piracy
22:33:27 <Rugxulo> Rar is popular in Russia, Lha is still popular in Japan, Zip in U.S., etc. etc.
22:33:34 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> only because of *nix permissions, on Win32 nobody cares about .tar <-- sure, and I don't care about win32
22:33:45 <AnMaster> though win64 is marginally more interesting
22:33:47 <Rugxulo> just saying, .7z by itself is fine for us ;-)
22:33:55 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it isn't like .7z or .zip can do windows ACLs either
22:34:20 <pikhq> .tar also lets you archive things like block devices. :)
22:34:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh and bzip2 is very slow to compress
22:34:31 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:34:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, not the data in those though
22:34:46 <Rugxulo> pretty slow, yes, but it claims to be faster than PPMD while still being fairly competitive
22:35:00 <AnMaster> but compared to gzip or whatever
22:35:04 <Ilari> What's that punycode name in /topic?
22:35:12 <pikhq> Rugxulo: PPMD is *extremely* slow.
22:35:15 <pikhq> Ilari: Just a Unicode string.
22:35:45 <Rugxulo> no, PAQ is extremely slow ;-)
22:35:57 <pikhq> IIRC, 僕は問題にユニコードが好きだ。
22:36:11 <pikhq> Might be a permutation thereof, though.
22:37:08 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:37:09 <calamari> as long as klingon isn't bannable
22:37:13 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> Rar is popular in Russia, Lha is still popular in Japan, Zip in U.S., etc. etc. <-- the only files I run into on daily basis are .tar.{gz,xz,bz2,lzma}, and very rarely .zip. A few times (when messing with Mac OS classic simulators): .zip
22:37:36 <impomatic> Has anyone seen this on Amazon? "Befunge: Stack- oriented Programming Language, Reflection (computer science), Esoteric Programming Language, Programming Language, Brainfuck, INTERCAL, Whitespace (programming language), Malbolge (Paperback)" http://bit.ly/cYWyWE
22:37:37 <Rugxulo> .zip is still used very frequently
22:38:01 <impomatic> Is the Klingon programming language still online? It used to be on Geocities.
22:38:13 <AnMaster> but true, it is used in .jar, .odt and so on
22:38:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I said which ones I ran into
22:38:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: "I love Unicode in my topics."
22:38:35 <pikhq> I had also put the same in English into the topic.
22:39:41 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Howsabout we put "esoteric programming languages" SOMEWHERE in the topic? | Esperanto is still bannable! | Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | Jag älskar Unicode i mina topicar. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:39:49 <AnMaster> need to find a Swedish word for topics
22:40:02 * Rugxulo confused about E-o reference
22:40:33 <AnMaster> * Rugxulo was kicked from #esoteric (bannable!)
22:40:56 <Rugxulo> pikhq, any comments? (seen you mention it before)
22:41:27 <Rugxulo> Swedish word? smorgasborg?
22:41:56 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, none of them are Swedish
22:42:13 <Rugxulo> I know gesundheit isn't, that was a (corny) joke, but the other either??
22:42:21 <AnMaster> the first one means <nonsense>-gas-fortress
22:42:37 <AnMaster> (gas as in "not solid" not as in "fuel")
22:42:58 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but with some dots over things it may mean completely different things
22:43:25 * Rugxulo not Swedish, not know spell good thusly
22:43:34 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that is why forgetting dots and rings in Swedish is such a bad idea. you end up with something meaning something completely different
22:43:36 <impomatic> That Esolang book is available on the German Amazon. 34 Euros :-(
22:43:48 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, as in gas = gas, gås = gose
22:44:14 <Rugxulo> I know I know, accents, diacritics, blah ... not something I use a lot (in English) ;-)
22:44:29 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, they are different letters in the alphabet
22:44:33 <Rugxulo> I know I know ... special characters
22:44:34 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and well, borg = fortress, bord = table
22:44:48 <Rugxulo> 34 EU is too much for 84 pages!!
22:44:56 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I was unable to guess what you meant though apart from "smör"
22:45:10 <Rugxulo> E-o has 28 letters, six of which have special marks over them (circumflex * 5, breve * 1)
22:45:16 <impomatic> Esolang book on German Amazon http://bit.ly/avuLtH
22:45:35 <Rugxulo> "Smorgasborg is spelled smrgsbord
22:45:36 <Rugxulo> if you refer to a buffet in swedish.
22:45:36 <Rugxulo> (smrgs is a sandwich and bord a table in swedish)"
22:46:22 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but the original word had in part a sensible and different meaning
22:46:58 <Rugxulo> "Sprache: Englisch" ... and yet not available except on German section of Amazon??
22:48:47 <calamari> use lulu.com to make your esolang book :)
22:49:54 <impomatic> Actually I there are 23246 books by the same three authors. I think they must me scraping content from the net and publishing it as print on demand or something. http://bit.ly/bqvVWb
22:50:39 <impomatic> Shame, I thought it'd be quite cool if someone actually wrote an esolang book :-(
22:50:42 <Rugxulo> it certainly looks weird (long obscure titles, boring subjects)
22:52:23 <calamari> Chris Pressey would have to be the author of an esolang book anyhow
22:53:17 <uorygl> `translatefromto en es Happy birthday!
22:53:34 <Rugxulo> `translatefromto en eo Happy birthday!
22:54:05 <calamari> `translatefromto en bf Happy birthday!
22:54:08 * AnMaster hits xilinx with something very very heavy
22:54:08 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
22:54:11 <Rugxulo> oh, BTW, found a recursive .ZIP earlier today ;-)
22:54:27 <AnMaster> and stupid thing is I need a single file from it probably
22:54:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:54:47 * Rugxulo wonders if he accidentally broke HackEgo
22:54:57 <Rugxulo> oh, whew, you broke it, not me ;-)
22:55:00 <uorygl> Nah, HackEgo was already broken.
22:55:08 <calamari> `translatefromto en es Happy birthday!
22:55:11 <Rugxulo> there is a command called "textbf" or something
22:55:23 <uorygl> `translatefromto en bf Look how broken you are!
22:55:25 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
22:55:28 <Rugxulo> well, I forget, but it does exist
22:55:48 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.23634 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
22:55:49 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
22:56:17 <uorygl> `run translatefromto en es Happy birthday! | toutf8
22:56:17 <fizzie> It has "gen" in the name somewhere, and wasn't it an egobot thing?
22:56:22 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
22:56:33 <uorygl> bftxtgen was an EgoBot thing, yeah.
22:56:42 <HackEgo> ?, addquote, calc, commands, creatures, define, esolang, etymology, fortune, \ google, helpme, imdb, karma, marco, minifind, paste, ping, quote, rec, roll, \ runfor, sayhi, strfile, swedish, toutf8, translate, translatefromto, \ translateto, unstr, url, wolfram
22:56:46 <AnMaster> `run rm -rf wunderbar_emporium*
22:56:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:56:53 <AnMaster> `run rm -rf */wunderbar_emporium*
22:57:01 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:57:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that can be a bit slow
22:57:16 <EgoBot> 41 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>++. [61]
22:57:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it isn't very efficient for short strings
22:57:33 <AnMaster> does it with genetic algorithms
22:57:48 <EgoBot> 102 ++++++++[>+>+++++++++++++>++++><<<<-]>>.---.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<++. [763]
22:57:50 <fizzie> See for example >><< there.
22:58:21 <fizzie> Since it's always 4 cells in the multiplication loop.
22:58:24 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
22:58:25 <calamari> had completely forgotten he integrated it into egobot
22:58:53 <uorygl> Genetic algorithms? That seems like not the best way to do that.
22:59:29 <calamari> uorygl: I'd encourage you to find the best way to do it.. then be sure to write a paper on it :)
22:59:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:00:00 <EgoBot> 94 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>>.<.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.<-.>----.>+.>+. [928]
23:00:23 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:00:24 <uorygl> !bf_txtgen 1[aj[jaj1[[1jaj[a1j[1j1j[a[[j1jaja[1j1[aj
23:00:27 <EgoBot> 286 ++++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>++++++++>++++<<<<-]>+.>+++++++.>+.+++++++++.<.>.<++++++.>.<<.>------..<.>>.<++++++.>.---------------.<.<.>+++++++++.>.>+.<<.<.>.>.<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>..<.>>.<<.<.>.<.>>.>.<<.>>.<.<<.>.>>---------------------------------------. [572]
23:00:31 <calamari> since it is returning quickly he must have the interations low
23:01:27 <uorygl> !bf_txtgen yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
23:01:31 <EgoBot> 228 +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>+..>+.......>+.......<..........<.....>>.>+......<....>..---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. [357]
23:01:33 <AnMaster> calamari, isn't the iteration count the number in []?
23:01:41 <uorygl> That is probably a really stupid solution.
23:01:51 <AnMaster> calamari, then the number at the front?
23:01:57 <AnMaster> calamari, stripping those >><< would be a good idea btw
23:02:29 <AnMaster> uorygl, but it adds a newline at the end
23:02:31 <uorygl> Better: +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>>><<<<-]>..............................................>.
23:02:39 <calamari> let it run longer it does better :)
23:02:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null).
23:02:56 <AnMaster> but a human can do even better
23:03:20 <EgoBot> 20 +++++[>++>>><<<<-]>. [11]
23:03:43 <uorygl> Oh, I guess newline and null are not the same character. :P
23:03:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, too lazy to count those first pluses
23:04:05 <AnMaster> uorygl, what made you think they were?
23:04:09 <calamari> you could run the output through a cleaner to get rid of the ><
23:04:42 <AnMaster> should be done in genetic algo though
23:04:48 <AnMaster> to favour short solutions properly
23:04:49 <fizzie> BrainFuck text generation: not an especially active field of research, I guess.
23:04:52 <calamari> it's a pretty hard problem to solve tho
23:04:55 <AnMaster> I mean, if you only remove those at the end
23:05:12 <AnMaster> in advantage for a worse solution
23:05:39 <calamari> well the reason it has those is because you set the number of memory cells used as an option
23:05:40 <impomatic> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDM_Publishing is the scam company producing all the books with material scraped from the net.
23:05:43 <AnMaster> mathematica shows a license dialog at start
23:05:49 <AnMaster> are they limited to one year or something?
23:05:53 <uorygl> Suddenly, I want to make a programming language based on LZW.
23:06:10 <calamari> so they aren't impacting the result
23:06:52 <calamari> usually, you would experient with different numbers of cells to see which gives the best result
23:07:06 <AnMaster> oh I see, it only works when network is up how strange
23:07:26 <AnMaster> calamari, no, as in ethernet hardware running
23:07:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819]).
23:08:11 <AnMaster> I had it removed to save battery before (it does make a difference of about 0.25 W according to powertop)
23:08:24 <AnMaster> wlan saves even more when down of course
23:08:38 <fizzie> They do have that license server nonsense, but one would think it'd be enough to have a loopback interface up.
23:08:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have to assume it was up
23:09:27 <fizzie> Maybe they've keyed the license to the Ethernet MAC. Changed NICs? Buy a new copy.
23:10:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:10:28 <AnMaster> okay *kicks Xilinx*. This is the worst idea for download ever invented
23:10:46 <AnMaster> the main file: a 2.9 GB uncompressed tar
23:11:02 <Rugxulo> what were you downloading anyways?
23:11:09 <AnMaster> containing according to tar -tf amongst other things large uncompressed files but also:
23:11:14 <AnMaster> Xilinx_ISE_DS_Lin_12.1_M.53d.0.4/idata/drop_0122_ise.zip.xz
23:11:36 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well, if it is Xilinx it should be easy to guess
23:12:34 <fizzie> I've seen quite many .rars inside .rars inside .rars.
23:12:44 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, anyway Xilinx makes FPGAs
23:12:54 <AnMaster> I think that should answer what I'm downloading
23:13:03 <Rugxulo> also, seems p7zip is *still* stuck at 9.04 beta (bah)
23:13:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I don't see the point of zip
23:13:18 <Rugxulo> fizzie, have you seen recursive archives yet?
23:13:40 <AnMaster> at least it has both bin/lin and bin/lin64 in it
23:13:53 <AnMaster> then to install the thing in a chroot of course
23:14:04 <AnMaster> I wouldn't trust xilinx an inch
23:14:12 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Yes, if you mean that .zip/etc that extracts into a copy of itself.
23:14:27 <AnMaster> unless I can extract only the gate timing info somehow
23:15:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Grep logs for r.zip here. I have just this phone now.
23:15:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, n900 is not "just this phone" it is "wow this amazing phone"
23:15:28 <fizzie> I'd like to see a chain version; a .zip that extracts to a .rar that extracts to a .tar.xz tha extracts to the original .zip.
23:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, make that yourself! :D
23:16:00 <fizzie> http://swtch.com/r.zip anyhow.
23:16:21 <fizzie> Extracts into r/r.zip with the same contents.
23:16:29 <Rugxulo> http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html
23:16:48 * calamari wants an n900, but can't afford it
23:17:40 * Rugxulo wants a calamari but can't palate it
23:21:57 <uorygl> Why do you want the impalatable?
23:23:23 <AnMaster> "The nice thing about r.gz is that even broken web browsers that ordinarily decompress downloaded gzip data before storing it to disk will handle this file correctly! "
23:23:32 <AnMaster> hm I hope none do it recursively
23:23:37 <AnMaster> probably aren't coded to do that
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23:27:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: From the comments: "In Safari on Mac OS X, with the option 'open "safe" files after downloading' set (on by default), it keeps uncompressing and filling up my disk. "safe" indeed ..."
23:27:32 <fizzie> (That was for the .zip.)
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23:31:16 <uorygl> http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html
23:31:26 <uorygl> "Recursion for the win." Ironically, his solution uses no recursion.
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23:31:47 <Rugxulo> huh, GCC will include gccgo in future versions
23:32:23 * uorygl wonders for a moment whether that's a compiler that takes a Go move and compiles it to a Go board with a response.
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23:33:27 <Rugxulo> no, it's that new Google language
23:37:52 <Rugxulo> ever heard of this? http://github.com/bonzini/superopt
23:42:55 <fizzie> Unfortunately I'm already asleep. (Or at least close enough for practical purposes.)
23:43:52 <fizzie> (Also called "the engineer's asleep".)
23:44:57 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I heard of superoptimisers before
23:45:03 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but that is length not time
23:45:12 <AnMaster> some longer sequence might be faster
23:45:23 <AnMaster> (x87 vs. SSE comes to mind here)
23:45:46 <Rugxulo> x86 is a pain to optimize for, seems impossible o_O
23:46:13 <pikhq> Different things are faster on different architectures.
23:46:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, same goes for many other arches though... cache effects, some nops to align on cache boundary might make it faster and so on
23:46:32 <uorygl> You know, I now wonder why OS X uses x86 these days.
23:46:57 <pikhq> uorygl: Because Intel offers better production guarantees on CPUs than IBM.
23:46:59 <AnMaster> it isn't just x86 where you have cache effects and god know what else though
23:47:10 <pikhq> Erm. s/architectures/chips/
23:47:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: x86 is worse about it than others.
23:47:35 <uorygl> It's also true that different things are faster on different architectures, of course.
23:47:41 <Rugxulo> Apple want fastest available, and Intel finally caught up to PPC in their eyes, I guess (while being cheap enough)
23:47:45 <uorygl> A BF processor would not be very fast.
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23:48:28 <uorygl> Its instructions are small, though. It's difficult to beat three bits.
23:48:43 <uorygl> Unless that's patted to 32 bits or something.
23:48:58 <pikhq> uorygl: Why would it?
23:49:09 <pikhq> Not like Brainfuck is a von neumann architecture.
23:49:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Brainfuck.
23:49:24 <pikhq> Y'know, base 7? ;)
23:49:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, well sure, but I was thinking about x86 still
23:49:45 <Rugxulo> base7? does anybody use that (besides ETA)?
23:49:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Brainfuck does.
23:50:22 <pikhq> Its code space is base 7, and it's not von Neumann.
23:50:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, no.
23:50:45 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also sure, VHDL can use anything crazy
23:50:46 <pikhq> It would be *perfectly* feasible to have a base 7 Brainfuck.
23:50:52 <pikhq> (for which we kill you)
23:50:56 <AnMaster> 5 bits gray code? sure why not
23:51:15 <uorygl> Brainfuck's instructions are base 7?
23:51:16 <oerjan> pikhq: base 8, surely?
23:51:29 <pikhq> oerjan: 8 instructions. 0-7.
23:52:19 <uorygl> Hmm, calling it base 7 might be slightly better, as then every base can be written as a single digit in itself.
23:52:32 <uorygl> Now not everything is base 10 any more!
23:52:36 <oerjan> i think there are possibly several brainfuck derivatives on the wiki based on treating bf as base 8.
23:53:08 <uorygl> We can speak of base 1, base 7, base 9, base F, base /...
23:53:51 <calamari> bitchanger has 4 instructions, so you can pack 4 per byte
23:54:36 <oerjan> as you can plainly see, that doesn't work very well beyond the standardized digits (9, F or Z dependent on how geeky you are...)
23:54:41 <Rugxulo> ETA explicitly uses base7 for its numbers
23:55:27 <Rugxulo> except it maps them to the same letters as instructions (htaoins) and avoids "e", which is used as the number terminator
23:55:29 <uorygl> Hmm, how's this for a BF instruction set...
23:56:08 <uorygl> @ - flip the current bit and move right. & - move left and if the current bit is 1, jump to the beginning of the program.
23:56:12 <uorygl> Darn, that doesn't really work.
23:56:33 <uorygl> Unfortunately, 4 is an infinite nonrepeating decimal!
23:56:55 <uorygl> Aww, Wolfram Alpha doesn't do base pi.
00:00:23 <calamari> how does a fractional base work
00:00:47 * Rugxulo is surprised no one here likes ETA
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00:03:13 <calamari> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization!
00:03:17 <oerjan> Rugxulo: clearly it's too easy to read, with all those common letters
00:04:45 <oerjan> calamari: you use digits from 0 up to ceiling(base-1)
00:05:55 <calamari> okay how would I express 3 in base 2.5?
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00:07:21 <oerjan> 10. then whatever 0.5 becomes...
00:08:27 <oerjan> there may be ambiguities, making the most significant digits as high as possible (greedy) is one consistent way
00:09:05 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
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00:11:05 * oerjan didn't know that terminated for integers
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00:12:06 <oklopol> in my summer job i will be trying to break a world record knuth once held
00:13:56 <oklopol> i'll be aiming for 12, his was 96
00:14:56 <oerjan> calamari: afaict that "standard form" is the same as greedy
00:15:15 <oerjan> (all the substitutions increase the most significant digit)
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00:16:01 <oklopol> of conversation not channel
00:16:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
00:16:46 <oerjan> surprisingly integers have finite forms
00:19:05 <oerjan> calamari: oh, 1.0000... and 0.1010101... are both the same number, so standard form is ambiguous
00:19:17 <oerjan> the first one being the greedy one
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00:37:21 <nooga> can BFS be implemented using recursive function instead of queue?
00:38:04 <calamari> okay 3 in base 2.5 is approximately 10.10111000011012
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00:40:43 <nooga> i think this is quite interesting question
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00:55:26 <calamari> you could encrypt a text by converting it to base 1.x where x is the key.. the result would still be 0's and 1's, so could be easily saved as binary
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01:12:59 <uorygl> `translate une langue étrangère aussi
01:13:27 <uorygl> "I can use as a foreign language"?
01:13:36 <uorygl> `translate Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi
01:13:39 <HackEgo> I can use a foreign language also
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01:44:03 <Sgeo_> Is Esperanto considered a foreign language?
01:46:25 <uorygl> It's not a domestic language, so yes.
01:47:01 <pikhq> There's several domestic languages considered "foreign".
01:47:11 <pikhq> For instance, American Sign Language is considered foreign in the US.
01:48:11 <pikhq> In spite of it being used by pretty much every deaf person in the US.
01:54:16 <uorygl> It looks like one could say that in Finnish, ü = y.
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01:54:37 <uorygl> Since ä is to a as ö is to o as y is to u.
01:55:54 <pikhq> Eh, Finnish is just Japanese stuck through a bizarre cipher. :P
01:57:33 * uorygl learns the difference between /ø/ and /y/.
01:58:01 <uorygl> /ø/ is to /e/ as /y/ is to /i/: the former of each pair is the rounded version of the latter.
01:59:33 <uorygl> And all of Finnish's consonants are easy for an English speaker, except, of course, for /r/.
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03:15:35 <Sgeo_> uorygl, today's Freefall has a .. different .. drawing style
03:26:06 <pikhq> Pulverised Coal Injection System???
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05:29:44 <Sgeo_> Question from my final exam [which I took, I'm not cheating]:
05:30:03 <Sgeo_> "The function of a compile or interpreter is to translate the specified source code to machine code."
05:30:14 <Sgeo_> I put False, and the correct answer is supposedly True
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05:37:52 <Gregor-L> Ultimately the machine always runs machine code, so arguably that's true.
05:38:44 <pikhq> I think something is broken with my expectations of what's easy to read and what's hard to read.
05:39:04 <pikhq> ja.wikipedia.org is easy reading for me.
05:39:12 <pikhq> I would *not* have expected that. At all.
05:43:46 <fizzie> Gregor-L: Alternative argument: interpret the question as "the function of a compiler or [the function of an] interpreter is to ..."
05:44:30 <Gregor-L> In which case, the answer is "compiler" :P
05:45:30 <SgeoN1> But compilers don't have to compile to machine code
05:46:10 <fizzie> Yes, well, you can't expect them to care about fine distinctions like that.
05:48:31 <fizzie> It also only says "a compiler", not "all compilers"
05:49:22 <pikhq> WHY THE HELL IS WIKIPEDIA EASY READING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE
05:52:19 <SgeoN1> Sure you didn't choose simple Japanese?
05:53:07 <pikhq> Absolutely positive.
05:54:10 <pikhq> I get the strong feeling I'm just getting decent at grokking Japanese's word construction or *something*.
05:54:23 <pikhq> (Japanese is *quite* a synthetic language)
05:57:00 <pikhq> Also, there does not exist a Simple Japanese Wikipedia.
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05:59:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, why are you reading in simple english then?
05:59:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: I am not.
06:00:25 <pikhq> Reading ja.wikipedia.org
06:01:51 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en toiminta
06:02:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, also sometimes sv.wikipedia.org at least is a lot simpler written than the same en article
06:03:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Japanese's Wikipedia is *absurdly* well-populated.
06:03:38 <AnMaster> you need to handle the html escape codes I think
06:03:57 <pikhq> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A8%80%E8%AA%9E Does this look like a stub to you?
06:04:15 <pikhq> About as well as en from what I've seen so far.
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06:04:53 <AnMaster> true and not all sv articles are stubs
06:05:09 <pikhq> 've yet to see a stub...
06:05:24 <oerjan> japanese quality, clearly
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06:12:48 <SgeoN1> Experimental evidence shows that the third question I got wrong, so did the professor. Unfortunately, I'm still wrong
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06:16:31 <SgeoN1> I made a typo in ConnectBot that I didn't see due to the font size
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07:16:47 <Sgeo_> 6.13 hours a week of non-work Internet use is considered an addiction by some people?
07:19:41 <coppro> to be addicted to the Internet, someone must show withdrawal symptoms
07:19:56 <coppro> or otherwise be unable to help themselves
07:20:07 * coppro is probably mildly addicted
07:20:11 <Sgeo_> http://www.upiasia.com/Society_Culture/2009/05/19/child_internet_addicts_given_shock_therapy/6567/
07:21:28 <Sgeo_> ^^reading assignment for psychology class
07:25:00 <Sgeo_> ECT isn't really a bad thing.. but this isn't that
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08:05:35 <Sgeo_> Less Wrong just helped me with my homework
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10:45:02 <ais523|unreg> hmm, I leave for a week, and now there's UTF-5 in the topic?
10:46:23 <Deewiant> We went from "I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D" pikhq (~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net) [08.05.2010 20:23:30]
10:46:30 <Deewiant> To "I love Punycode in my topics. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D" Gregor-L (~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) [09.05.2010 18:33:44]
10:46:53 <fizzie> Yes, and Punycode is not UTF-5.
10:48:04 <fizzie> The current topic is a bit on the long side.
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11:34:03 <ais523|unreg> pineapple: that behaviour demands an instant /whois
11:34:29 <pineapple> i'm the same pineapple i was ~a month ago
11:35:15 <ais523|unreg> yep, tried to arrange a proxy vote but messed up the paperwork
11:35:16 <pineapple> welcome to the first coalition government in a long time
11:35:43 <ais523|unreg> turns out that there was nothing to do for about 6 hours a day but to watch BBC World Service
11:36:07 <ais523|unreg> so I was probably following it more closely than most people actually in the UK
11:36:12 <pineapple> i thought world service was a radio station
11:36:17 <ais523|unreg> and yes, it's a TV channel, that's available at least in Canada
11:36:33 <ais523|unreg> (although it's called BBC World News nowadays, somehow)
11:36:43 <pineapple> i did kinda tune out after about friday morning, and was catching up mostly by what the news feed on igoogle was telling me
11:37:12 <pineapple> but i've mellowed over teh weekend
11:37:33 <ais523|unreg> many people seem annoyed at the result, but it all seems to be for different reasons
11:37:39 <pineapple> the lib dems doing shiter than everyone was expecting
11:38:51 <ais523|unreg> after Nick Clegg turned out, to everyone's surprise, to actually exist
11:39:01 <ais523|unreg> then most of the tabloids started a really huge attempt to discredit him
11:39:15 <pineapple> i know a few papers ran a "vote clegg, get brown" campaign
11:39:48 <pineapple> and 1 paper ran a "in 71 areas, if you wanna keep the tories out, it's better to vote labour" campaign in the few days before
11:40:04 <pineapple> apparently, Bristol NW was one of those... and look who came second...
11:40:22 <ais523|unreg> by the way, what's with the man in a chicken suit who keeps following David Cameron around?
11:40:54 <ais523|unreg> who's taken to following David Cameron around, whilst wearing a chicken suit
11:42:57 <ais523|unreg> apparently this is what it was all about: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/general-election/features/2010/04/21/david-cameron-the-daily-mirror-chicken-s-verdict-115875-22200120/
11:43:49 <ais523|unreg> but the fact that there was a chicken following him around became evident before the reason
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14:29:02 <ais523|unreg> I linked it on the basis that Portugese was probably easier to read than Malbolge
14:29:13 <ais523|unreg> but apart from being obviously ontopic, I don't know what it says either
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14:36:52 <Rugxulo> <Sgeo_> Is Esperanto considered a foreign language?
14:37:25 <Rugxulo> yes, invented by a Polish doctor ... although it's a conlang (preferably considered "auxiliary", aka always a second language)
14:38:02 <oklopol> what do you ppl think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CILaZ4Zyf7w ?
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14:39:47 <oklopol> okay that one doesn't really work 8-bit
14:40:29 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14L9_PUhhkA
14:41:11 <oklopol> most guitar riffs without high notes sound rather boring with other instruments
14:42:40 <oklopol> heh, i should listen before i paste, that wasn't the one whose 8-bit version worked either
14:42:46 <Rugxulo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA8-Lt6eHHw
14:43:02 <Rugxulo> at least I've heard this one's original
14:44:19 <Rugxulo> I mean your selections are too obscure for me ;-)
14:45:18 <oklopol> i was just wondering if it sounds "random" to everyone outside the genre, i'm wondering if i too just like whatever crap they play fast with a guitar
14:46:04 <oklopol> often you don't really hear the main melody in that thing, that's what i mean by not working
14:46:40 <Rugxulo> yeah, I know what you mean
14:49:12 <Rugxulo> "A great could've been megaman tune."
14:49:27 <oklopol> and the point about low riffs, those are simply not very interesting without an electric guitar, and their point is not being interesting, but sounding "tough" or w/e, i'm fine with people hating that shit, but most of the melodies imo should be interesting to anyone who likes nontrivial music
14:49:42 <oklopol> (this rant because my gf thinks faceless sucks :P)
14:50:12 <oklopol> (she listens to stuff from three days grace to classical)
14:50:21 <Rugxulo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nCaWsRB8JU&feature=related
14:51:02 <Rugxulo> it was megaman ... although that was in ref to an Iron Maiden song (original I mentioned was Hangar 18)
14:51:05 <oklopol> so that's what "at least I've heard this one's original" meant
14:51:31 <Rugxulo> yes, I'm not familiar with Faceless
14:52:24 <Rugxulo> hmmm, I can't hear the main vocal melody there, oh well
14:52:33 <oklopol> i tried to learn to listen to deathcore, but currently i think most of it is bullshit, but faceless is in that genre and it's my favorite band atm
14:52:43 <oklopol> my conclusion is genres suck
14:53:48 <oklopol> i liked the megadeth thingie, thunderstruck i find a bit boring
14:54:04 <Rugxulo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac-wpfJWaEI&feature=related
14:54:52 <Rugxulo> hmmm, I hear no vocal lines in this one either
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14:55:31 <oklopol> i rarely like music that relies on vocal lines
14:56:52 <oklopol> although i don't dislike singing, it's just music where singing is the main instrument usually have no other content, and humans are a rather boring instrument
14:57:55 <oklopol> i know very few bands by name, but i doubt i like either of those
14:58:02 <Rugxulo> Van Halen always had vocals (99% of the time), didn't stop EVH from rocking out
14:58:34 <Rugxulo> heh, "Cowboys From Hell Ukulele" -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuybeFoHj_g&feature=related
14:59:58 <oklopol> most rock has trivial riffs, solos that are too complicated for my brain (little structure), and the rest is singing, something trivial in the verse, something nice and repetitive in the chorus
15:01:30 <oklopol> okay random song by satriani was okay
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15:03:01 <Rugxulo> yes, Satriani is 99.99999% instrumental
15:03:19 <Rugxulo> very very technical but melodic too
15:07:38 <oklopol> okay i think satriani has too little repetition for my taste
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15:10:28 <oklopol> i gotta go buy... don't know what yet ->
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16:02:03 <Rugxulo> woot, new DOSBox 0.74, finally!
16:02:39 <oerjan> as opposed to the old DOSBox 0.74.
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16:07:15 <Gregor-L> oerjan: Spoken with a snarkiness that makes me proud :P
16:12:32 * Rugxulo too lazy to look up and copy/paste the dumb "o/" symbol as comeback
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19:54:05 <impomatic> There's a Vintage Computer Festival at the U.K.'s National Museum of Computing if anyone's interested? 19-20 June.
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20:52:09 <pikhq> ((\v->e) x) = e[v := x]
20:52:25 <pikhq> That is to say, in e you replace all instances of "v" with "x".
20:53:27 <pikhq> Or, more broadly: it's just function application.
20:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> But one has to avoid substituting when the variable is captured by a nested lambda
20:55:11 <pikhq> So, you replace all free instances of "v". ;)
20:58:57 <pikhq> ... Free variables? Uh, yeah. If "v" is an argument to a nested lambda, it's not free in that portion of the parse tree. So, move on.
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21:09:59 <soupdragon> Message to alise from the roughly 4 days in the past:
21:10:20 <soupdragon> π/√8 = 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11 - ...
21:10:21 <soupdragon> π^2/8 = 1 + 1/3^2 + 1/5^2 + 1/7^2 + 1/9^2 + 1/11^2 + ...
21:11:08 <pineapple> i thought the whole 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11... was pi/4
21:11:40 <pineapple> it might be pi/4 if you switch the signs
21:12:01 <soupdragon> ah yes I read a proof of that one the other day
21:12:12 <soupdragon> I wonder if this pi/sqrt(8) one can be derived similarly
21:12:35 <pineapple> i kinda wanna find out what your version tends to
21:13:13 <pineapple> if you plot it on a graph, after every addition/subtraction
21:13:24 <pineapple> you get a wiggly line that tends to pi/4
21:14:17 <pineapple> ok... time for you to eat a dictionary: as x increases, 1/x _tends_ to 0
21:14:39 <pineapple> or... maybe i'm using the wrong word
21:14:49 <soupdragon> pi/4 = 1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 - ...
21:14:57 <pineapple> but anyway, apply that context to the rest of what i've just said
21:15:28 <pineapple> x = 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11 - ...; find x
21:15:50 <soupdragon> I copy/pasted it directly from the internet
21:15:59 <soupdragon> !haskell 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11
21:17:07 <pineapple> 21:16:28 <pineapple> ::3.1415926535897931/(8**0.5)
21:17:20 <soupdragon> !hs 1 + (sum . zipWith (\(sign,value) -> sign*(1/value + 1/(value+1))) (cycle [-1,1]) [3,7..1000])
21:18:17 <pineapple> i thought you were just going [+ -]
21:18:40 <soupdragon> What you said about pi/4 makes sense though -- I've seen that one just the other day
21:19:50 <soupdragon> http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3059/picture29l.png
21:20:31 <pineapple> yeah, i should've gotten that right
21:20:45 <pineapple> dvorak typos of a vowel will give another vowel
21:21:07 <soupdragon> Anyway, what is beautiful is the connection between the series for pi/sqrt(8) and p^2/8
21:21:22 <soupdragon> I think it's a 'coincidence' but it's still lovely
21:25:28 <soupdragon> oh now everyones pissed off at me because I said coincidence
21:25:48 <soupdragon> 'How DARE you speak this blasphemy against the platonic nature of mathematics'
21:27:33 <pineapple> (at least, until you're zen enough to understand why they happen)
21:27:33 <soupdragon> Perhaps there is only one consistent way for things to be, and mathematics, with its unique and beautiful structures that are pure expressions of logical necessity, is trying to tell us something about this?
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21:27:52 <oklofod> i figured if you are edible
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21:54:44 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:54:51 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
21:55:01 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:55:07 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for unlambda!
21:55:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:55:25 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for lazyk!
21:55:34 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for linguine!
21:55:58 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.3268 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:56:06 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less
21:56:14 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug
21:57:03 <Rugxulo> <CTCP>ACTION wonders how to interpret this (yes, I wrote it, yes I suck, and yes it is painfully obtuse): ```s.si``v```s.e.n``v```s.p.p``v```s.h.a``v```s.t. ``v```s.s.p.iiiiii
21:57:41 * Rugxulo takes Opera out back for a "talk"
21:58:16 <soupdragon> !unlambda ```s.si``v```s.e.n``v```s.p.p``v```s.h.a``v```s.t. ``v```s.s.p.iiiii
21:58:17 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.3506: parse error
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22:07:56 <benuphoenix> which looks better? main(){for(;;);} or :(){:|:&};: ?
22:08:31 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:08:36 <Rugxulo> unless you're trying to obfuscate
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22:10:11 * benuphoenix realizes that an infinite loop in c and a fork bomb in sh are not
22:11:51 <pikhq> main(){for(;;)fork();}
22:12:18 <benuphoenix> i can't believe i was stupid enough to load irssi in a dos command prompt. On second thought, I can believe it.
22:12:20 * Rugxulo wonders if AnMaster ever heard of BashForth ...
22:12:39 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.3721 \ wunderbar_emporium
22:12:56 <pikhq> Yes, HackEgo is very, very simple.
22:13:04 <pikhq> `run ls | grep tmpdir
22:13:44 <pikhq> `run sh -c 'ls tmpdir*'
22:13:58 <HackEgo> bin cube2.base64 cube2.jpg hack_gregor hello.txt help.txt huh netcat-0.7.1 netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz out.txt paste poetry.txt quotes share test.sh tmpdir.4014 wunderbar_emporium
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22:42:13 <AnMaster> * Rugxulo wonders if AnMaster ever heard of BashForth ... <-- yes
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22:44:28 <EgoBot> 33 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>. [38]
22:44:40 <EgoBot> 33 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>. [42]
22:44:49 <EgoBot> 33 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>. [43]
22:45:39 <AnMaster> oh wait, can be reduced to: ++++++++++[>+++++<-]>.+. in my case... hm still too long
22:54:31 <Ilari> !bf_txtgen abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:54:33 <EgoBot> 112 +++++++++++[>+>+++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>>--.+.+.+.>++.+.+.<++++.+.+.+.>+++++.<++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.<-. [932]
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23:03:29 <fizzie> It does better if you wait a bit.
23:03:48 <fizzie> I get ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+<<-]>---.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>. for abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz + newline.
23:04:36 <fizzie> Actually it seems to converge to 85 characters in just ~100 generations here.
23:04:45 <fizzie> Though that's with "-t 2".
23:05:30 <fizzie> With -t 4 (the default) that takes somewhere around 4000 generations before it's something reasonable.
23:05:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:08:47 <pikhq> 'Tis a genetic algorithm.
23:12:15 <fizzie> Genetically modified algorithm. Unnatural and unhealthy! Get the genes out of our tomatoes!
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23:42:13 <Ilari> UHF-band antennas? :-)
23:46:00 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> what should I evolve <-- alternative answer: a pokemon
23:52:43 <soupdragon> If you get it now, will it evaporate on 24th?
23:54:00 <Mathnerd314> you can get it for free, unless it is past May 24th, when you will have to pay money again
23:57:45 <coppro> predicting the future is easy
23:57:53 <coppro> soupdragon: evolve the pikachu
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00:20:35 <AnMaster> <Mathnerd314> you can get it for free, unless it is past May 24th, when you will have to pay money again <-- huh?
00:20:58 <soupdragon> but ... the servers are overloaded so try anothre day
00:21:08 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I would play it in wine
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03:11:07 <oerjan> <pikhq> So, you replace all free instances of "v". ;)
03:11:14 <oerjan> um, no that is not sufficient.
03:12:36 <oerjan> you must rename some of the bound instances of variables mentioned in x
03:12:49 <pikhq> Ah, blah, alpha reduction necessary.
03:12:50 <oerjan> (for ((\v->e) x) = e[v := x]
03:13:17 <pikhq> "Some more work required"
03:15:46 <oerjan> i've never implemented lambda calculus myself, but i'd guess alpha reduction is a more awkward part than beta.
03:16:19 <pikhq> I'd imagine it'd be less awkward (and less efficient) to just transform it into SK.
03:16:32 <oerjan> (without it no one would bother with all that deBruin index stuff and things, would they)
03:18:01 <oerjan> well yeah abstraction elimination isn't so bad. i have nearly implemented that. (improved someone else's eliminator for "optimizing" unlambda)
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03:43:13 <coppro> oerjan: I recall you explained Norway's voting system to me a while ago. Can you run it by me again?
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03:45:45 <oerjan> each county is a voting district, electing a number of representatives (dependent on population and area)
03:45:55 <oerjan> by proportional representation
03:47:00 <oerjan> we just choose one party list. it has varied whether we can do amendments of candidate positions.
03:48:00 <oerjan> in addition to the fixed number of direct local representatives, there is 1 candidate per county chosen based on national total votes, to smooth out things
03:48:54 <oerjan> so generally representation ends up pretty proportional to national representation, _provided_ the party gets at least 4% of total votes.
03:49:36 <oerjan> however if it dips below 4%, it gets only the direct votes, which can be catastrophal like it was for Venstre last year
03:49:48 <oerjan> 169 i think, let me check
03:50:17 <coppro> is there a place where I can read up on it?
03:50:42 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=14&ved=0CFsQFjAN&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FParliament_of_Norway&rct=j&q=stortinget&ei=vGjrS9TLIpef-gb0qJnABA&usg=AFQjCNG3Vy-ocOwR89eLiisHtkKB9XOUbQ GOT FUCKING DAMN GOOGLE
03:50:50 <coppro> also, what's your opinion on how well it works, and does it give voters much leeway in selecting individual candidates they like?
03:50:55 <oerjan> i don't want your fucking redirection
03:51:29 <oerjan> almost no leeway, i don't think the candidate modifications are even used for the national elections anymore
03:51:47 <coppro> okay, so that's a downside
03:51:49 <oerjan> (i guess that link works even if it is annoying)
03:51:52 <coppro> but at the same time, one that's easily fixe
03:52:12 <oerjan> well they _undid_ it, so obviously they didn't like it
03:52:22 <oerjan> or it had almost no effect anyway
03:53:18 <oerjan> oh and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Norway
03:57:15 <oerjan> for local elections there is a lot more leeway though, apparently you can even add candidates from other parties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_municipal_elections#Ballots
03:57:21 <oerjan> assuming that's up to date
04:07:19 * uorygl adds another seven Finnish words to his flash card deck.
04:08:26 <oerjan> flash cards are harmful! steve jobs says so.
04:09:32 <uorygl> Evidently he's had a change of heart, as these flash cards are on my iPod Touch.
04:09:57 <uorygl> I read Apple's Flash spiel; it does have some points.
04:10:13 <oerjan> it's just an old app they haven't got around to deleting yet. expect it to disappear soon.
04:10:56 * oerjan hasn't bothered to read Apple's Flash spiel, but cannot avoid noticing all the reddit headlines...
04:11:28 <oerjan> well, technically i _can_, i suppose
04:11:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Flash is proprietary, they say.
04:11:42 <pikhq> While running a proprietary platform.
04:11:48 <pikhq> The irony is nearly corporeal.
04:12:16 <oerjan> that's the gist i got of it, yes
04:12:24 <uorygl> They also said that there should be only one platform, because that way, developers don't need to restrict themselves to the set of common features.
04:12:45 <uorygl> That part of it I kind of disagreed with. :)
04:13:11 <oerjan> that is some very esoteric logic right there
04:16:54 <Sgeo> Sure, if developers would be FORCED to use Flash if Flash was supported, I could understand
04:16:57 * uorygl finally convinces the flash card app that he kinda knows those new seven words now.
04:17:25 <uorygl> That took about ten minutes. Not really too shabby.
04:18:25 <uorygl> Now I can kinda sorta read the first four sentences of the Finnish Wikipedia article about koirat.
04:20:23 * uorygl recognizes "ruokana" as being the essive case and correctly guesses the meaning of "ruoka" by the illustration.
04:22:35 <oerjan> be careful. soon you will start getting this inexplicable urge to drink heavily in hot, steamy places. and carry a knife.
04:22:51 <uorygl> Do Finns all carry knives?
04:23:25 <oerjan> i vaguely think oklopol said something about them being banned in cities
04:23:27 <uorygl> I would never drink heavily in hot, steamy places. Drinking heavily in hot, dry places, on the other hand, is starting to sound like a good idea.
04:23:38 <pikhq> uorygl: Any reason for learning Finnish?
04:23:56 <oerjan> but that doesn't matter, because you will also get an urge to move to a desolate hut in the middle of a forest.
04:24:02 <pikhq> (and yes, I will accept "just because" as an answer)
04:24:10 <uorygl> Well, I like Scandinavia, and I also want to learn a non-Indo-European language.
04:24:21 <pikhq> Finnish is Indo-European.
04:24:46 <pikhq> No, it's Uralic, isn't it?
04:24:59 <pikhq> No wonder it's so weird.
04:25:52 <pikhq> Only Indo-European influences, then, are due to Sprachbund. Fun.
04:28:05 <uorygl> I think after my vocabulary catches up to the first paragraph of this Wikipedia article, I'll have to find a Finn who can explain all these suffixes.
04:28:51 * pikhq shall continue preferring Japanese. Mmm, language isolates...
04:29:17 <uorygl> We should merge language isolates with each other!
04:29:18 <pikhq> (well. Nearly. It *is* related to those pesky Ryukuan languages.)
04:30:42 * uorygl pauses to allow someone to interject about the unnecessity of sleep.
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10:23:53 <P4> oklofod: Definition: Put a 501 on, you'll know what I mean. Look good you do ? Example: C'mon Gofa, show me a move :@ Tu peux... pas SUPA MOULANT
10:24:25 <oklofod> are you a markov chain bot?
10:25:31 <P4> no, i'm just passing my supybot's urbandict reply
10:25:32 <oklofod> shit this is some sort of jesus day
10:25:46 <oklofod> can you translate that to english?
10:26:13 <P4> if you asked about polish, i'd say 'yeh', but in case of english - i'm sorry :P
10:26:37 <oklofod> i wanna shoppe, but jesus closed all the shoppes.
10:28:53 <oklofod> then my guess is "i can use some other weird language"
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10:46:02 <AnMaster> <oklofod> are you a markov chain bot? <-- hm I was wondering that too :D
10:47:31 <AnMaster> (second section to be precise)
10:50:59 <P4> i don't :P my mom wanted to start learning E...o, but i suppose she's too old for that :P
11:04:40 <gm|lap> what's with people learning E...o?
11:04:57 <P4> they are... different :)
11:05:02 <gm|lap> also i'm working on a semi-actual programming language for R...ZZle
11:06:45 <gm|lap> e.g. for "noose": @f2\n\tgf;\n\t?cb f2; ?\n\t?cr gl ? ?cb gr ? ;\n\tgf;\n@\n\n@f1-\n\tf2;\n\t?cr gl; ?\nf1;@\n\nf1;
11:07:10 <gm|lap> the puzzle is: "BBBBBBBrBBBBBBB<\n......rbr.......\n.....rb.br......\n....rb...br.....\n...rb.....b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...rb.....b.....\n....rb...br.....\n.....rBBBr......\n"
11:07:20 <gm|lap> with a "b" under the robot
11:07:28 <gm|lap> (capital letters contain stars)
11:08:24 <gm|lap> also, after adding a couple of instructions, i've worked out how it's possible to do while loops
11:08:58 <gm|lap> so there's 10 instructions total (turning + moving + painting are functions)
11:09:34 <oklofod> wait i'm confused, what did you come up with exactly?
11:09:48 <gm|lap> a programming language for robozzle
11:10:03 <gm|lap> @name ... @ defines a function
11:10:12 <gm|lap> ?cond ... ? defines an "if true" block
11:10:14 <oklofod> also you seriously underestimate the laziness of irc people if you assume someone is going to copypaste the level in a text editor to see what it looks like ;)
11:10:29 <oklofod> (and you overestimate our intelligence if you assume we wouldn't have to, i think)
11:11:03 <gm|lap> python -c 'print "BBBBBBBrBBBBBBB<\n......rbr.......\n.....rb.br......\n....rb...br.....\n...rb.....b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...rb.....b.....\n....rb...br.....\n.....rBBBr......\n"'
11:11:04 <oklofod> do you compile into robozzle?
11:11:19 <gm|lap> nope, it gets compiled into a bytecode
11:11:46 <gm|lap> it's a stack-based thing
11:12:04 <oklofod> but you can already program in robozzle, aren't you just taking the fun out :P
11:12:14 <gm|lap> it actually helps with some of the harder puzzles
11:12:33 <gm|lap> also it allows for more interesting constructs
11:12:42 <gm|lap> python -c 'print "\n@l_lockup-l_lockup;@\n@l_loop = @\n@l_until_cg ~cg --; ~ @\n\n@f_swp1\n\t@f_swpc\n\t\tf_swp2;\n\t@\n\t@f_fire\n\t\tgf;gr;gr;gf;\n\t@\n@\n\n@f_swp2\n\t@f_swpc\n\t\tf_swp1;\n\t@\n\t@f_fire\n\t\tgr;gr;\n\t@\n@\n\n@f_main-\n\tgr;\n\n\tf_swp2;\n\t\n\tl_loop;=\n\t\tgf;\n\t\t?cr f_swpc; ?\n\tl_until_cg;--\n\t\n\tf_fire;\n\t\n\tl_loop;=\n\t\tgf;\n\tl_until_cg;--\n\t\n\tgr;\n\tgf;\nf_main;@\n\nf_main;\n"'
11:12:59 <oklofod> well it would help with harder puzzles if you compiled into robozzle
11:13:17 <gm|lap> = is "duplicate top of exec stack"
11:13:24 <gm|lap> and - is "pop top of exec stack"
11:14:18 <gm|lap> i DID use it for igoro's "explore the world" thing, though
11:14:23 <oklofod> nono "-" should be nop and " " should be pop!
11:14:44 <oklofod> oh can you somehow test the programs in robozzle anyway?
11:15:02 <oklofod> do you compile into ROBOZZLE bytecode?
11:15:44 <gm|lap> erm, nope, this is my own custom bytecode
11:16:12 <oklofod> but can you run the programs in robozzle?
11:16:30 <gm|lap> unless you wanted to make a hack for the JS client
11:16:54 <oklofod> well you could always compile to robozzle, if it weren't for the size limits
11:17:17 <gm|lap> also ";" is "run function named on value stack"
11:17:20 <gm|lap> or something like that
11:17:26 <gm|lap> you push a name onto the stack, not a function
11:17:46 <gm|lap> also you can redefine functions on the fly
11:18:39 <gm|lap> also what would be a good turing-complete lang to implement?
11:19:20 <oklofod> haskell is one of the prerequisites for the channel
11:19:38 <oklofod> well you could implement one of my languages?!?!?
11:19:40 <gm|lap> heh, i've been here for several years, mostly intermittently
11:19:56 <gm|lap> i'll need to go to bed soon, though
11:20:08 <oklofod> i guess just toi and clue have enough stuff online to be possible
11:20:28 <oklofod> but i'm not sure they are the best ideas
11:20:39 <oklofod> neither is particularly easy to implement
11:21:10 <gm|lap> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue <--?
11:21:18 <oklofod> (or at least not nearly on the level of smallfuck) (also i don't remember what smallfuck is, but i assume it's a simplified bf)
11:21:39 <oklofod> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.py maybe
11:21:57 <oklofod> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar
11:22:24 <oklofod> anyway no documentation, try toi instead unless you want to search esoteric logs for specs :P
11:22:45 <oklofod> there's an example program, this dude inferred how the language works from that
11:23:16 <gm|lap> (the interpreter does not currently implement all of Toi, and is definitely not a reference implementation, it is also incredibly space consuming, hopefully the author will fix it tomorrow)
11:23:33 <oklofod> it currently does implement all of it, or should at least
11:23:39 <gm|lap> anyways, i'm going to have to go to sleep now, gnight
11:23:53 <oklofod> i thought about fixing that, but then i thought nah
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11:52:40 <soupdragon> augur: 'IIRC sapir whorf is a theory for babby linguists until they figure out it's wrong.'
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11:59:52 <soupdragon> what's xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s ?
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12:23:13 <oklofod> let me ask my nondeterministic turing machine
12:23:17 <Deewiant> soupdragon: Probably 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。
12:26:48 <soupdragon> (not that I know russian, but I guess you mean that text is what the ASCII encodes)
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12:31:29 <P4> soupdragon: that is chinese, probably simplified :)
12:41:09 <P4> actually that's japanese "Unicode problem like me." :)
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16:07:46 <oerjan> <oklofod> then my guess is "i can use some other weird language"
16:09:07 <oerjan> a soupdragon _really_ shouldn't call other people food, you know
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21:22:42 <hiato> Anyone wanna stubify the latest articles on the wiki?
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21:45:40 <maedhros777> Hey, does anyone have any ideas? I'm creating an esoteric language called Polynomial in which the whole program is a polynomial, statements are in the zeroes of the function. How would I factor the polynomial in the compiler such that the statements are in the correct order?
21:46:04 <maedhros777> I think I could factor it, I just don't know how to do it in order
21:47:08 <maedhros777> By the way, why does it say "I want to use an esoteric language also" in French in the topic? :)
21:47:30 <hiato> maedhros777: I'm not sure I follow you, you want to find the roots of a polynomial in 'order'?
21:47:31 <Ilari> If roots are rational, there are tricks for finding the roots...
21:48:14 <maedhros777> I know how to get the roots, I'm just wondering how the compiler would distinguish between (x + 5)(x + 3) and (x + 3)(x + 5)
21:49:08 <Ilari> (x + 5)(x + 3) = x^2 + 8x + 15 = (x + 3)(x + 5).
21:49:42 <maedhros777> But let's say (x + 5) reads in a value, and (x + 3) outputs a value. So which would the compiler know to do first?
21:49:51 <hiato> maedhros777, sort them? Unless you mean the order in which they were encoded, which is then impossible, unless you muliply them by ordered primes
21:50:29 <hiato> encode them as root 1 = ( x - 2^instr1) ( x - 3^isntr2 ) etc
21:50:56 <hiato> prime factorisation is unique
21:51:15 <Ilari> Or have the instructions cyclically repeating and execute them in increasing order.
21:51:19 <hiato> and then you know it's the one that factorises by 2 that gives you instr1
21:51:48 <hiato> (x + 5)(x + 3) -> (x+2^5)(x+3^3)=whatever
21:52:01 <hiato> but, once you have found the roots of whatever
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21:52:26 <hiato> and start execution with the on that is a perfect power of 2
21:52:50 <maedhros777> Wait, so are you saying that the encoding should be different?
21:52:54 <Ilari> Like if root mod n is 0 its operation A, if its 1, its operation B, etc...
21:52:56 <Sgeo> Today's not the weekend
21:53:12 <hiato> just add two more steps
21:53:14 <maedhros777> I still don't understand. Can you give an example?
21:53:35 <hiato> Ok, (x-3) == output, (x+5)== input
21:54:01 <hiato> to encode, you take the order it was in, say, outp then inp
21:54:13 <hiato> and assign primes, 2 and 3
21:54:31 <hiato> then, you do exponentation for the root values
21:55:06 <hiato> so (x+5)(x-3)-->(x+2^5)(x-3^3)
21:55:12 <hiato> then you make the polynomial
21:55:29 <maedhros777> How do you determine which bases to use for the exponentiation?
21:55:34 <hiato> then, to decode, you find the roots
21:55:41 <hiato> maedhros777: increasing primes
21:55:52 <hiato> starting rith 2 for the first instruction
21:57:01 <Ilari> Well, my idea: Assume there are 15 different instructions and you want to do 5 and then 3. Since 3 is less than 5, add 15 to get 18. Then the polynomial is (x-5)(x-18). Alternatively one could substract 15 from 5 to get (x+10)(x-3).
21:57:02 <maedhros777> Anyone know of a good method for factoring complex/imaginary zeroes?
21:57:22 <hiato> maedhros777: Newton-Rhapson for real
21:57:57 <maedhros777> Is that where p/q is the root and p is a factor of the last term and q is a factor of the first?
21:59:01 <Ilari> maedhros777: No, that's not it. But there are tricks to speed that method a lot.
21:59:50 <hiato> Ilari: I see what you're saying, but it is possible that that will give anoter root, eg, say you want -1, after -2, so you get (x-2)(x-1) -> (x-2)(x-16) -> (x-2)(x-4)(x-4) ....
22:00:26 <maedhros777> Oh wait, is the Newton-Rhapson method the one from which Newton's fractal is created?
22:01:11 -!- power has joined.
22:01:32 <Ilari> hiato: How did you get that last step? x-16 != (x-4)^2
22:02:00 <hiato> er, (x-4)(x+4), still encodes anoter instruction
22:02:22 <maedhros777> As far as I've seen, Newton's method uses an initial guess. How would you put that in a compiler?
22:02:23 <hiato> maedhros777: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_method
22:02:24 <Ilari> Also, x - 16 != (x - 4)(x + 4) = x^2 - 16.
22:02:37 <hiato> Ilari: aaah, good point
22:03:29 <hiato> Ilari: but I'm sure that there would be ambigous factorisations of non linear roots for that notation
22:03:59 <maedhros777> Actually, I just thought of something. How would I use hiato's method with complex zeroes?
22:04:16 <hiato> maedhros777: why encode them?
22:04:24 <Ilari> Polynomial factorization in reals/complex is always unique modulo order of factors.
22:04:25 -!- power has changed nick to nice.
22:04:53 <maedhros777> Does newton's method work with complex numbers?
22:05:09 <Ilari> maedhros777: Not very well...
22:05:31 <hiato> Ilari: (x^2-16) -> (x±4) or (x^2-1) -> (X±1) ?
22:05:48 <hiato> how will you know when to subtract
22:05:52 <Ilari> Or at least what root it converges to can jump wildly.
22:06:18 <Ilari> hiato: Well -4 executes before 4 (same with -1 and 1).
22:06:20 <maedhros777> soupdragon: Find the zeroes of a function in my compiler.
22:06:56 <maedhros777> I'm creating an esoteric language called Polynomial. The whole program is a function.
22:07:33 <hiato> Ilari: no, I'm saying, does (x²-16) give instructions ±1 or ±4? As you don't know whether 15 was added/subtracted to encode it before or after another arbitrary instruction
22:07:41 <soupdragon> you know solving quadratic equations is easy
22:07:49 <soupdragon> hey maedhros, are the roots all on the real line/
22:08:43 <hiato> Ilari: so your way is ambigious for any partial (and thus any at all) factorisation
22:10:18 <soupdragon> if the roots of a polynomial are t1,t2,..,tn then the polynomial (x-t1)(x-t2)...(x-tn) = x^n +/- (t1 + t2 + ... + tn)x^(n-1) + ... +/- (t1 t2 ... tn)
22:10:49 <soupdragon> N(t1 t2 ... tn) = N(t1) N(t2) ... N(tn) hm
22:11:21 <soupdragon> How can we put a circle around the roots of a polynomial?
22:11:29 <hiato> soupdragon: yes, but still possible if he implements it well
22:12:14 <hiato> soupdragon: so far as I understand, that will be solved by virtue of the roots only encoding a finite set of instructions
22:12:59 <hiato> Ok, well there you have it
22:13:08 <soupdragon> if it is integers this makes the problem much easier
22:13:22 <soupdragon> you could try things like rational roots I guess
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22:14:09 <hiato> soupdragon, heh, naah, we manually encode the polynomials, so no need to check for anything
22:14:14 <soupdragon> for a really crude first approach you could probably just grab SWI prolog and write (x-t1)*...*(x-tn) #= input and it'll solve for t1,t2...
22:14:39 <soupdragon> they arent' written in the form 6x^4 - 7x^3 + ..?
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22:15:49 <hiato> soupdragon, it let's you unambigiously determine the order of encoding
22:16:08 <soupdragon> what is an example input to the program?
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22:16:19 <hiato> The idea was that you take some set of integers and encode them as roots of a olynomial
22:16:47 <hiato> that set being the instructions, of whatever meaning
22:17:26 <soupdragon> man that guy has no idea what he is doing
22:17:50 <hiato> I have a vague one
22:17:52 <soupdragon> seemed to describe about 20 different situations
22:18:34 <hiato> but, I think I know what he was trying, and I think I gave him a solution thatworks, but I doubt he can use it
22:19:10 <hiato> 22:54 < maedhros777> I just need to write a compiler now.
22:21:06 * Sgeo wonders if it would be possible to get Dwarf Fortress to work on Android
22:22:01 * soupdragon thinks playing dwarf fortress is harder than being NASA mission control
22:22:33 * hiato would name his children Sgeo if he found a way
22:30:21 * Sgeo sends a message to his professor saying that, while my script wasn't perfect, it's far better than the professor's answer.
22:34:12 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/u582h
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23:10:50 <pikhq> My Internet connection hates rain.
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23:13:27 <maedhros777> Oh yeah, sorry for leaving without answering your question, soupdragon
23:14:14 <maedhros777> An example program would be zeroes of 72 and i
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23:14:52 <soupdragon> so the input would be x^2 - (72+i)x + 72i = 0?
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23:18:03 <soupdragon> but why is it a cubic? I mean that has 3 roots
23:18:07 <pikhq> This darned thing seems to be obsessed with dropping connection.
23:18:37 <pikhq> And I am having absurd difficulty getting a single freaking webpage to load. :(
23:18:59 <maedhros777> Complex zeroes of the form a + bi are only considered by the absolute value of b
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23:19:50 <maedhros777> I have to go now, sorry to leave you devastated :)
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23:52:53 <soupdragon> quantum computers can do linear search in O(sqrt(n))
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23:59:35 <maedhros777> I've just been wondering -- are there any esoteric or real programming languages in another language (besides English)?
23:59:55 <maedhros777> A programming language in another language :)
00:00:10 <olsner> excel's "language" and VBA exist in localized versions
00:00:45 <maedhros777> It seems strange that all of them are in English
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00:01:19 <soupdragon> I think a sanskrit lisp would be very nice
00:01:37 <soupdragon> and I've seen some people talking about ideas for a chinese APL
00:01:39 <pikhq> Welp, rebooting the router isn't helping HTTP any.
00:01:57 <pikhq> Chinese APL? That would work quite well.
00:02:07 <Sgeo> I think Python has a Spanish version
00:02:07 <olsner> it might be nice to take chinese characters and just use a random dictionary to map them to meanings in a programming language
00:02:25 <pikhq> Of course, I'm a guy who uses Chinese characters to write English. :P
00:02:58 <maedhros777> Look at this: http://blog.aegisub.org/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-religions.html
00:03:30 <olsner> pikhq: nice! I was considering learning to do something like that, inventing my own english dialect using kanjis and translating all the linux software into it for sweet compactness and weirdness
00:04:26 <maedhros777> Another thought: how are accents represented in HTML?
00:04:27 <pikhq> Hmm. 漢字-書en programming 語... The 意 amuses 僕 大tly.
00:04:43 <pikhq> maedhros777: Depends on the encoding format in use.
00:05:22 <pikhq> Though the most general means of representing them is with the equivalent HTML entity. AKA a Unicode codepoint.
00:05:41 <olsner> pikhq: kanji-something-en programming language... the thought amuses me greatly?
00:06:05 <pikhq> olsner: Kanji-written programming language. The idea amuses me greatly.
00:06:48 <pikhq> I use 考 for thought, and 意 for idea. The mapping is a bit imperfect, I admit, but it kinda-sorta works.
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00:09:05 <olsner> the "idea" kanji looked similar to how I remembered japanese "thought", but after looking it up they're quite different
00:09:41 <olsner> they just share the "heart" radical(?) in the bottom
00:10:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
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00:12:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:15:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:16:21 <pikhq> GAH STOP DROPPING CONNECTIONS
00:16:51 <pikhq> How the hell is it that this damned thing manages to drop *specific connections*?
00:18:01 <pikhq> I cannot browse the web, but I can browse Gopher.
00:19:37 * Sgeo had that experience
00:19:43 <Sgeo> Can you get to https:// stuff?
00:20:19 <pikhq> What's a good https server to try?
00:20:54 <Sgeo> Used to use https://secondlife.com
00:21:31 * Sgeo looks for the login page for eBay
00:21:45 <Sgeo> https://signin.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?SignIn&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2F
00:25:19 <pikhq> Well, I almost lost my Freenode connection, and didn't get the page loaded.
00:27:16 <pikhq> Oh, and I can't get an IM connection going at all.
00:30:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving).
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00:34:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
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00:35:34 <pikhq> Nope, can't browse the web with Elinks. *While no other connections exist*.
00:36:15 <pikhq> I think I've got everything-but-what-normal-people-use Internet service.
00:36:41 <Sgeo> Tunnel HTTP over IRC!
00:36:54 <pikhq> Very, very tempting.
00:37:07 <pikhq> "Connection reset by peer". :(
00:37:39 <Sgeo> Can you connect to SSH?
00:37:57 <pikhq> Dunno; don't have a shell account handy.
00:38:17 <Sgeo> uorygl, emergency ping
00:38:32 <pikhq> Hmm. What was the normal HTTP request?
00:38:47 <Sgeo> GET / HTTP/1.1
00:38:52 <pikhq> I'd look it up, but I can't.
00:39:18 <Sgeo> And you need to include the Host: header
00:41:07 <maedhros777> Does anyone know if there are any Gravity compilers/interpreters out there?
00:41:13 <maedhros777> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Gravity
00:41:39 <Sgeo> pikhq, I'm getting someone to contact uorygl to see if I would be allowed to grant you a temporary account
00:41:53 -!- Slereah has joined.
00:42:16 <Sgeo> maedhros777, I thought it was mathematically impossible to make a Gravity interp
00:42:26 <Sgeo> At least, one that will actually run
00:42:27 <soupdragon> maybe you could approximate an interpreter
00:43:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:43:13 <maedhros777> Isn't that, like, the definition of a programming language, that it is run?
00:43:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:43:53 <pikhq_> Well, I'm having difficulty getting a response *using netcat to google*.
00:45:00 <pikhq_> Hmm. Anyone know of an easy way to discover if it's MTU issues?
00:45:53 <maedhros777> Oh yeah -- Sgeo, how do you do red text in IRC?
00:46:08 <Sgeo> maedhros777, it only looks red because your name was mentioned
00:46:16 <Sgeo> Genuinely red text is different
00:46:31 <soupdragon> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
00:46:32 <Sgeo> pikhq_, did you see my privmsg
00:46:43 <Sgeo> maedhros777, I see it as red
00:46:53 <Sgeo> pikhq_, any luck?
00:46:53 <pikhq_> soupdragon: I have managed to get responses out of Google. *Only to invalid requests*.
00:47:01 <maedhros777> I was always wondering why that happened :)
00:47:11 <Sgeo> pikhq_, bad connection, or did I mistype the password?
00:48:42 <Sgeo> pikhq_, so should I delete the account?
00:51:47 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:52:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:53:03 <pikhq> Well, that was succesful at making me lose every single connection.
00:53:13 <pikhq> Each and every one.
00:54:10 <Sgeo> And you weren't successfully able to actually use it, though, I guess
00:54:17 <pikhq> debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-8ubuntu1.2
00:54:20 <pikhq> debug1: match: OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-8ubuntu1.2 pat OpenSSH_4*
00:54:22 <pikhq> debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0
00:54:25 <pikhq> debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.3
00:54:27 <pikhq> debug2: fd 3 setting O_NONBLOCK
00:54:30 <pikhq> debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent
00:54:30 <pikhq> And then... *Nothing*.
00:54:32 <pikhq> debug3: Wrote 792 bytes for a total of 813
00:54:43 * Sgeo has no clue what any of that means
00:54:44 <pikhq> Yes, it stopped working during the key exchange.
00:55:15 <pikhq> The connection was made, but everything stopped working as soon as key negotiation began.
00:55:21 <Sgeo> So can I delete the account?
00:55:33 <pikhq> Yeah, I can't use it at all.
00:55:55 <olsner> oh, you're using encryption? must be something subversive then!
00:56:07 <maedhros777> Does anyone know of a program to generate LaTeX code, or a good tutorial?
00:56:39 <soupdragon> you just write \sqrt{...} for square roots and \frac{...}{...} for division
00:56:44 <soupdragon> that's all you need to know realyl.....
00:56:59 <soupdragon> at lesat that's all I know and I get by
00:57:29 <Ilari> host header is mandatory in HTTP/1.1.
00:57:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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01:00:38 <pikhq> I've got a theory that it's the router's fault.
01:01:12 <Sgeo> pikhq, if you sent something containing HTTP-like stuff to IRC, what would happen?
01:01:14 <Ilari> pikhq: So nc www.googele.com 80 -> 'GET http://www.google.com/<ENTER>Host:<ENTER><ENTER>' hangs?
01:01:27 <olsner> fiddle furiously with the router settings for content filtering, firewall functions and intrusion prevention/detection
01:01:30 <pikhq> ifconfig certainly isn't showing any errors.
01:01:52 * Sgeo notes that pikhq is probably glad that he's computer-savvy
01:02:01 <Sgeo> Or at least, savvy enough to use IRC
01:02:11 <olsner> maedhros777: yes, no other way to fiddle really
01:02:12 <maedhros777> * Maedhros777 is wondering Sgeo makes text blue
01:02:48 <pikhq> Okay, watching ifconfig...
01:02:56 <Sgeo> Is +c color filtering?
01:03:11 <pikhq> No errors. No dropped packets. Just an inexplicable lack of a response.
01:03:55 <Sgeo> GET http://google.com is meaningless
01:04:22 <Sgeo> Anyone want to -c the channel?
01:05:32 <olsner> woah, who put swedish in the topic?
01:07:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:09:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:09:43 <pikhq> Okay, now with the only IRC connect being to Freenode.
01:10:19 <pikhq> And let's make the only room I'm in #esoteric.
01:10:58 <pikhq> AAGH WHY DONT I HAVE TCPDUMP
01:12:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, what happens if you disable all firewalls?
01:12:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: I am behind no firewalls ATM.
01:13:12 <pikhq> I am directly connected to the modem, and I have no iptables rules, and the policy for INPUT, FORWARD, and OUTPUT is ACCEPT.
01:13:46 <Sgeo> Is there a DMZ thing?
01:13:57 <Sgeo> Also, try a different OS?
01:14:02 <pikhq> I am DIRECTLY ATTACHED TO THE MODEM
01:14:29 <Sgeo> Um, different distro then, or at least LiveCD?
01:14:35 <Sgeo> See if it's some configuration issue
01:14:35 <pikhq> And lack the means to *install* a different OS *because I CANT MAKE ANY NON-IRC CONNECTIONS*
01:15:19 <pikhq> I'm strongly suspecting that there's an MTU issue.
01:16:01 <Sgeo> Uh, hown do I USE dcc chat on this
01:16:02 <Ilari> pikhq: After local updates finish, I could maybe help with testing...
01:16:09 <myndzi> dcc isn't an irc connection
01:16:18 <myndzi> it is Direct Client Connection
01:16:25 <myndzi> by definition you connect directly to the target :)
01:16:37 <myndzi> rather, they connect to you (if you are sending (unless you use "passive" dcc))
01:16:56 <pikhq> From the looks of things, any sufficiently large packets are completely and utterly ignored?
01:17:14 <myndzi> well at least you can change the packet size with /dcc packetsize
01:17:32 <pikhq> This is consistent with how the only HTTP response I have gotten is an error page.
01:17:33 <Sgeo> Ok, anyone want to send pikhq a LiveCD?
01:17:47 <olsner> hmm, I think there's a tool for discovering the smallest mtu between you and some other host
01:17:55 <Sgeo> Or invent HTTP-over-DCC?
01:17:56 <Ilari> pikhq: MTU problems would cause that. More specifically, MTU problems on return path.
01:17:57 <myndzi> i don't have one, and also my upload is slooow
01:18:26 <Ilari> pikhq: What happenss if you set interface MTU to 1280?
01:18:28 <pikhq> Ilari: Fucking wonderful. Fucking *wonderful*.
01:18:37 <pikhq> Ilari: Same thing.
01:18:43 <pikhq> I actually have been playing with my MTU.
01:18:49 <Sgeo> I don't have anything new, but I'll try
01:18:58 <pikhq> Because I have actually had this happen before when my MTU was set wrong.
01:19:35 <pikhq> If the other end has its MTU set wrong, I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill some people.
01:19:55 <Sgeo> Hm, maybe I shouldn't bother sending a livecd
01:20:48 <Sgeo> pikhq, do you at least see me trying to send?
01:20:48 <pikhq> How do you accept a DCC send with irssi?
01:21:52 <Ilari> Ugh. Locale generation is slow and I apparently have lot of them enabled.
01:22:54 <pikhq> Hmm. Anyone willing to set up an HTML server with an obscenely low MTU?
01:23:13 <Sgeo> Is there a way to change MTU in Apache?
01:23:22 <pikhq> Or maybe I could try and figure out what the MTU *is* for this link?
01:23:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: "ifconfig eth0 mtu number-goes-here"
01:23:48 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_MTU_discovery
01:23:50 <Sgeo> pikhq, um, is there a risk of losing my ssh connection?
01:24:13 <pikhq> olsner: Thanks. Thanks for the link that I cannot read.
01:24:42 <Sgeo> Ok, what MTU shall I set?
01:25:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: 1000 I guess?
01:25:09 <Sgeo> The original MTU of Normish is 1500
01:25:15 <Ilari> 1280 is high enough for IPv6 but low enough not to usually be a problem...
01:25:36 <Sgeo> But now I can't seem to type into ssh
01:25:37 <pikhq> Hmm. Could someone google the management IP for a "ViaSat Surfbeam satellite modem"?
01:25:45 <Sgeo> http://normish.nomictools.com
01:26:28 <Sgeo> I think I broke Normish
01:26:56 <Sgeo> Oh crap, I typoed
01:27:09 <pikhq> "Connection reset by peer"
01:27:11 <Sgeo> I forgot mtu, so I did sudo ifconfig eth0 1000
01:27:23 <pikhq> What are the *other* possible causes of that?
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01:28:51 * Sgeo blames pikhq for my typo
01:30:25 <pikhq> Anyone? "Connection reset by peer" causes?
01:31:15 <olsner> pikhq: tracepath says that the path-mtu between you and me is 1500
01:31:47 <pikhq> olsner: Okay, so it's not the MTU, then.
01:33:19 <Sgeo> So I killed Normish for nothing?!?
01:33:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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01:38:08 <Ilari> pikhq: Can I send few pings there for testing?
01:38:53 <pikhq> I've been using ping -s to google.
01:38:57 <pikhq> And getting truncation.
01:39:36 <maedhros777> Does anyone know how to use a sigma in LaTeX?
01:40:03 <Ilari> 1024 byte IP packets seem to work OK. Latencies are slow.
01:41:02 <pikhq> Well, I do have a very, very high-latency link.
01:41:04 <Ilari> So do 1500, and return packets do not seem truncated.
01:41:36 <pikhq> What's your IPv4 address, Ilari?
01:41:46 <olsner> wow, I've never seen ping times this high before
01:42:00 <pikhq> olsner: Satellite-tastic link.
01:42:26 <olsner> you must really be in the middle of nowhere
01:42:32 <olsner> move somewhere they have internet!
01:42:34 <Ilari> pikhq: You know how to do 6to4 address to ipv4 conversion?
01:42:50 <pikhq> Ilari: No, I'd look it up but I can't.
01:43:25 <pikhq> 12 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 10999ms
01:43:34 <olsner> that's weird, I can ping you
01:43:48 <pikhq> Your host is probably set to drop ICMP?
01:43:59 <olsner> ah, right, I probably am
01:45:45 <olsner> so that means a TCP connection takes at least 4-6 seconds to set up?
01:46:04 <pikhq> More if DNS hasn't been cached.
01:47:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:47:28 <Ilari> pikhq: 2002:5870:32ae::1 -> 587032ae -> 1483748014.
01:47:41 <pikhq> Ilari: Thank you for not being helpful.
01:48:04 <pikhq> Could you stick that in a more useful format, like 4 octets?
01:48:31 <pikhq> ... Wait. You can just use the full number, can't you?
01:48:44 <pikhq> 8 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 6999ms
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01:49:46 <pikhq> Hmf. No truncation when pinging slashdot.
01:50:16 <pikhq> But nor is there any actual access to slashdot via HTTP.
01:50:36 <pikhq> I've got half a mind to take a sledgehammer to a computer.
01:50:53 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:51:09 <Ilari> pikhq: There is small HTTP server on port 7682.
01:54:51 <olsner> maybe they just use a timeout < 6s :)
01:54:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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01:55:58 <Ilari> pikhq_: <Ilari> pikhq: There is small HTTP server on port 7682.
01:56:47 <Ilari> Saw request (200 OK reply).
01:57:04 <pikhq_> I'm certainly not getting the reply.
01:57:22 <Sgeo> On Slashdot, or something else?
01:58:21 <pikhq_> Ilari: How large was the reply?
02:01:53 <Ilari> pikhq_: The page size is about 900 bytes.
02:02:26 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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02:05:14 <Ilari> Gah. I can't use tcpdump (I have it installed but trying to use it sends load average through the roof).
02:05:30 <pikhq> And I cannot has tcpdump.
02:08:54 <Ilari> pikhq: Well, I set firewall to log all outbound IPv4 packets.
02:11:14 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
02:11:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:13:37 <Ilari> pikhq_: Maybe try requesting it again (I should see the outbound packets in firewall logs now)...
02:17:52 <Ilari> I see what looks like repeated TX attempts of 52 byte ACK + 98 byte ACK/PSH.
02:19:17 <Ilari> ... DST=75.106.103.227 LEN=98 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=56999 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=7682 DPT=46258 WINDOW=432 RES=0x00 ACK PSH URGP=0
02:19:46 <Ilari> ... DST=75.106.103.227 LEN=52 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=61552 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=7682 DPT=46259 WINDOW=432 RES=0x00 ACK URGP=0
02:19:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:21:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:21:22 <Ilari> I also saw this: DST=75.106.103.227 LEN=938 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=27331 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=7682 DPT=46261 WINDOW=432 RES=0x00 ACK PSH FIN ... No re-TX seen.
02:21:50 <pikhq> What was there before "I also saw this"?
02:21:56 <pikhq> 20:13 < Ilari> pikhq_: Maybe try requesting it again (I should see the outbound packets in firewall logs now)...
02:22:56 <Ilari> I see what looks like repeated TX attempts of 52 byte ACK + 98 byte ACK/PSH.
02:23:30 <pikhq> So this implies... What?
02:23:57 <Ilari> Also hmm... What was that 938 byte ACK/PSH/FIN packet there about? I didn't see any retransmits...
02:23:58 <pikhq> My ISP is about as reliable as smoke signals from on top of an active volcano?
02:25:06 -!- sshc has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:26:22 <Ilari> Obiviously not MTU problem when packets that small have problems and packets of 1.5kB make through...
02:27:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:27:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:29:41 <Ilari> pikhq: Also, why IRC is pretty much only thing that works (it is unstable, but...)?
02:29:54 <pikhq> IRC is presumably low-bandwidth.
02:30:02 <pikhq> I can't connect to irc.foonetic.net.
02:30:15 <pikhq> But still, mostly I can do IRC.
02:34:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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02:35:09 <AnMaster> Ilari, try wireshark as root, generally it works, probably the tcpdump issue is just a command line flag issue or such
02:35:20 <AnMaster> of course, wireshark will complain loudly
02:35:39 <AnMaster> it is up to you to decide if you want to do that
02:35:52 <Sgeo> Is there a way to make my .avis take up much less space?
02:36:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, ogg theora, mpeg, or whatever
02:36:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, iirc avi is uncompressed
02:36:39 <Ilari> AnMaster: I can't run graphical apps as root.
02:36:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, or ksu or whatever kde has
02:37:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, for me graphical apps for root work with "sudo programname" but not "sudo -s" or su or "sudo su -"
02:38:06 <Sgeo> How do I get Archive Manager to compress to maximum possible extent?
02:38:34 <Sgeo> the one with GNOME
02:38:42 <AnMaster> uh no idea, I use cmd line tools
02:38:55 <Ilari> AnMaster: None of those work (I am not authorized for those).
02:39:10 <AnMaster> Ilari, eh? so you don't have root access locally?
02:39:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, then you are pretty much fucked
02:39:59 * Ilari deletes the firewall log rule...
02:41:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo, something like tar -jcf foo.tar.bz2 foo for bzip2, not sure if it is max, but it would be trivial to do something like: tar -cf - foo | xz -z9e - > foo.tar.xz
02:41:10 <AnMaster> that may not work exactly like that
02:41:15 <AnMaster> haven't test run the latter command
02:41:26 <AnMaster> but it should work, or something pretty close to it
02:41:48 * Sgeo somehow doubts it will get 12GB of video down to less than 1GB
02:41:53 <AnMaster> oh and if you want zip I have absolutely no clue about anything except unzip
02:42:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:42:08 <AnMaster> Sgeo, not without lossy compression
02:42:22 <Sgeo> Ok, how do I do lossy compression on the command line?
02:42:25 <AnMaster> so you want mpeg or ogg theora or such
02:43:02 <Ilari> Well, IIRC gzip could compress ~59GiB of raw video data (video dump from game) to about 2GB...
02:43:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I don't know, I would read the manual for the the relevant programs. In this case that is probably ffmpeg or such
02:44:11 <Ilari> Well, it has large single-color surfaces, which really tends to compress well...
02:44:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo, oh and -9e to xz might not be a good idea, I wouldn't be surprised if it took days
02:44:33 <AnMaster> something like just -9 might be better
02:45:53 <Sgeo> tgz -9cf . > futurama.tgz
02:45:58 <Sgeo> Why is that not working like I want?
02:46:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I have no clue what tgz is
02:46:42 <AnMaster> it is an unknown command to me
02:46:56 <coppro> tgz doesn't accept options
02:47:27 <AnMaster> coppro, someone made an alias for tar -z?
02:47:42 <coppro> AnMaster: no, for tar | gzip
02:47:48 <coppro> which is strictly worse
02:47:57 <AnMaster> coppro, well passing -f and redirecting stdout makes no sense at all
02:49:29 -!- maedhros777 has joined.
02:49:46 <Sgeo> With just tgz futurama.tgz, will it be much larger than I want/
02:50:17 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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02:52:22 <pikhq> Hey, look. Freenode's back.
02:52:29 <pikhq> I doubt any other Internet is.
02:54:11 <pikhq> Nope. Still don't have *the fuckinsadfgnklasdjgh;blohzsadvjhnasb;hg web*
02:54:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, tar -zcf futurama.tgz dirwithfuturama
02:54:45 <AnMaster> Sgeo, because then it might try to include itself
02:54:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: .avis are compressed.
02:54:52 <AnMaster> and yes it would be much bigger
02:55:13 <pikhq> A .avi file is just a container for some video compression format.
02:55:19 <Sgeo> AnMaster, should I include 9?
02:55:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure? I'm pretty sure they were uncompressed, or perhaps it can be uncompressed as well?
02:55:33 <AnMaster> Sgeo, tar doesn't take that option afaik, check man page
02:55:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's a container format.
02:55:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, and can it contain uncompressed?
02:55:54 <pikhq> Yes, that is one such codec.
02:56:01 <pikhq> Almost *nobody* uses it for raw video though.
02:56:04 <Ilari> pikhq: Maybe phone ISP tech support? Or is the average IQ below CMB temperature there?
02:56:44 -!- lament has joined.
02:59:10 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I'm not getting status on the command line the way I did with tgz
02:59:43 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I want to see the progress as it's being made.. wait, that's -v, isn't it?
03:00:13 <AnMaster> but if as pikhq said it is compressed then I doubt this will help at all
03:00:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:02:08 <Sgeo> Indeed, it seems to not be helping
03:02:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:02:26 <Sgeo> So, how do I reencode the videos?
03:02:34 <Sgeo> Basically, I just want to play these things on my phone
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03:30:58 <pikhq> Well, I guess my IRC connection has stabled out.
03:31:07 <pikhq> I'm still not getting any not-IRC.
03:39:18 <Sgeo> pikhq, can you telnet?
03:39:33 <Sgeo> try telnet alt.nethack.org
03:39:48 -!- sshc has joined.
03:40:08 <Sgeo> telnet nethack.alt.org
03:41:14 <pikhq> Lagtastic, but yes.
03:44:13 <Sgeo> pikhq, irc.xkcd.com#xkcd
03:44:26 <pikhq> And I cannot connect to Foonetic.
03:45:07 <coppro> You can't just switch ISPs?
03:45:13 <Sgeo> Maybe I can bridge a channel on FreeNode with Foonetic
03:45:27 <pikhq> coppro: If I could I would.
03:45:36 <pikhq> Actually, I can *connect* to Foonetic.
03:45:52 <pikhq> Joining #xkcd causes the connection to drop.
03:46:47 <Sgeo> pikhq, can you connect to any other channels on Foonetic?
03:47:39 <Sgeo> So, join #pikhq and I'll direct anyone who wants to help to there?
03:48:55 <pikhq> God dammit it autojoined.
03:49:04 <pikhq> But I'm still connected.
03:49:41 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you receiving chat?
03:50:02 <pikhq> Nothing from #xkcd after "<@res0> puddle dried up"
03:50:11 <pikhq> And... Lagging out.
03:50:23 <Sgeo> Ok, I'll set up a bridge
03:50:40 <Sgeo> #pikhq here will connect to #pikhq there
03:53:03 <pikhq> Gah. At the rate this is going I'm starting to think some asswad at the ISP is actually monitoring for connections that use "too much bandwidth" to drop them or something.
04:03:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, ping, you're still in Foonetic, right?
04:06:50 <Sgeo> pikhq pikhq pikhq
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04:08:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, why are you not responding in Foonetic???
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04:51:01 <pikhq> So, apparently I have 88% packet loss.
04:51:18 <pikhq> I'm amazed I can do IP.
04:51:40 <uorygl> How are you connected to your ISP?
04:51:52 <Gregor-L> You can "do IP" with 99% packet loss :P
04:52:02 <pikhq> uorygl: I send my packets TO SPACE
04:52:12 <pikhq> And a satellite sends them back FROM SPACE
04:52:18 <uorygl> Satellite? Sounds laggy.
04:52:30 <pikhq> Yes, I normally have 2-second pings.
04:55:54 <uorygl> At least it isn't Freenet.
04:56:09 <pikhq> Yeah, not as laggy as Freenet.
04:56:25 * uorygl ponders what the mail system would be like if it were like Freenet.
04:56:36 <uorygl> <Gregor-L> It would be like Freenet.
04:57:04 <uorygl> I guess people wouldn't receive messages until they look in their mailboxes.
04:57:11 <uorygl> Which is already how it works, so I guess it would be exactly the same.
04:57:29 <uorygl> Satellite Internet: Not As Laggy As The United States Postal Service.
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05:16:06 <Sgeo> pikhq, Internet success?
05:16:20 <pikhq> I appear to have issues with #xkcd still. XD
05:16:33 <pikhq> But I can browse t3h webs!
05:17:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, you are in #xkcd
05:19:01 <oerjan> <maedhros777> I've just been wondering -- are there any esoteric or real programming languages in another language (besides English)?
05:19:12 <oerjan> i recall an icelandic one being discussed
05:19:22 <pikhq> There's Perligata.
05:19:48 <oerjan> skrifastreng ("writestring") was one of the commands, iirc
05:20:17 <oerjan> which was enough to google it, it's called Grunnur
05:20:41 <oerjan> that was just another command
05:20:58 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir_(programming_language)
05:21:46 <oerjan> which also leads us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-English-based_programming_languages
05:22:24 <oerjan> although a lot of those are esolangs not based on a real natlang at all :D
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05:23:55 <oerjan> i guess Zuse's Plankalkül is also pretty famous
05:24:32 <pikhq> Yup, /join #xkcd kills my Freenode link.
05:24:33 <oerjan> (and presumably german, although the wikipedia sample doesn't really show it)
05:29:27 * coppro is reading about GOTO++. If he translates the French correctly, each program is compiled to an intermediate representation and a custom VM to interpret it
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05:53:24 <gm|lap> downloading ghc because hugs interactive mode is ass
05:53:39 <gm|lap> at least from what i can establish
05:56:28 <gm|lap> oh dear, i just realised what i typed
05:58:41 <pikhq> ICANN is doing non-ASCII TLDs.
05:59:00 <oerjan> it's all greek to me. or was that arabic.
05:59:54 <gm|lap> actually if unicode gets a cheeseburger glyph
06:00:03 <pikhq> http://xn----rmckbbajlc6dj7bxne2c.xn--wgbh1c/ This is the hostname of the Egyptian Ministry of Communications and Information Technology.
06:00:04 <gm|lap> then ICANN has (cheeseburger)
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06:14:06 <Gregor-L> gm|lap: I wurve the man command.
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07:37:30 <asiekierka> "code esoteric language do make real brain make"
07:37:42 <asiekierka> "Esoteric language code is actually generated by the brain"
07:40:46 <asiekierka> now, "talk make esoteric malbolge do do and create code generation"
07:41:06 <coppro> doesn't always work: http://translationparty.com/#7352244
07:41:44 <lament> i got a 2-cycle http://translationparty.com/#7352245
07:41:55 <coppro> http://translationparty.com/#7352249
07:42:08 <lament> and the site doesnt test for cycles :(
07:42:29 <asiekierka> lament, do you want to lament about it? :P
07:43:02 <lament> http://translationparty.com/#7352252
07:44:05 <coppro> http://translationparty.com/#7352257
07:44:05 <asiekierka> "talk make esoteric malbolge do do and create code generation"
07:44:23 <asiekierka> gives "Malbolge Thus, the code generator can create a powerful statement"
07:44:57 <coppro> http://translationparty.com/#7352261
07:47:24 <asiekierka> http://translationparty.com/#7352274 - a certain volcano you all know
07:47:37 <asiekierka> gives The Castle District in the North Fiji fatal Raja
07:48:12 <gm|lap> http://translationparty.com/#7352277
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07:50:52 <gm|lap> http://translationparty.com/#7352287
07:51:12 <coppro> this one is deep: http://translationparty.com/#7352286
07:51:58 <gm|lap> http://translationparty.com/#7352295 vs http://translationparty.com/#7352293
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08:00:34 <coppro> I have managed to get it to produce a word that it cannot translate in either direction
08:02:03 <coppro> I've also yet to produce an input including both 'quark' and 'gluon' which doesn't cause it to fail to translate at least one word
08:02:12 <lament> http://translationparty.com/#7352347
08:02:32 <lament> kanji makes it into english
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08:03:34 * Sgeo should sleep now
08:04:18 <pikhq> My goodness. Actual kanji.
08:04:53 <pikhq> "Stars hidden in a crowd of his [face-haven]"?
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08:57:52 <gm|lap> ugh... is translationparty broken?
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15:19:36 <AnMaster> I have an idea for how to make an AI. It is probably crazy. And someone probably thought of it already...
15:20:36 <AnMaster> (oh and it probably won't work)
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15:22:21 <oerjan> the latter being a pretty safe assumption
15:22:23 <AnMaster> basically simulate evolution with genetic algorithms, don't aim for AI that can pass the turing test right away, rather aim for something that can respond to it's simulated environment, say, along the lines of a very very simple bacteria, when you have something reasonable there, extend the fitness test to require something more
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15:23:13 <oerjan> well i'm sure it's been thought of before yeah...
15:23:14 <AnMaster> presumably you could work yourself up to something that could seem like a simple AI in some hundred years. Unlikely to take as long as real evolution since computers are rather fast.
15:23:48 <oerjan> i didn't say i knew who did it
15:23:56 <oerjan> just that it's too obvious
15:24:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, heard that story of Columbus and the egg?
15:24:27 <oerjan> i suspect the problem is you are enormously underestimating the complexity of environment needed to evolve intelligence
15:25:00 <AnMaster> (there is even a separate wikipedia page on it heh)
15:25:39 <oerjan> i've heard one such story, which fits the subject so i assume that is it
15:26:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm I did consider complexity but I wasn't sure how bad it would be, bad yes but no idea how bad.
15:26:15 <oerjan> ("anyone could have thought of that" "but they didn't!" essentially)
15:26:22 <AnMaster> but probably I underestimated it yes
15:27:02 <oerjan> also i think there is a theory that much of the final intelligence evolution was due to social interaction between humans
15:27:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, considering you can get interesting things with breading FPGAs (famous example is that circuit able to detect two different tones, without using a reference clock)
15:27:45 <oerjan> presumably we tried to evolve to outsmart each other :)
15:28:10 <oerjan> (seeing as the other highly intelligent animals are also highly social)
15:28:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay so you could introduce that in your environment after you get something that is able to be aware of other AIs in that environment
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15:28:40 <AnMaster> for speed reasons you could probably skip that during the initial stages, but it should probably be introduced not too late either
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15:29:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, but yes, it probably would take too much resources to be feasible :/
15:30:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, on the other hand I suspect designing an AI with "traditional engineering" may be unfeasible for humans.
15:31:22 <oerjan> as long as we don't know how _humans_ manage to be intelligent, sure
15:31:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, heck if you wanted to evolve AIs like that you would probably have to make the environment (the fitness function) dynamic too. I mean, consider on earth, life changed the environment a lot
15:32:13 <AnMaster> stuff like production of oxygen I mean
15:32:14 <oerjan> yes. although maybe artificial evolution could skip some of the long static periods.
15:32:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, what do you mean here?
15:33:08 <AnMaster> (I can think of several interpretations of that statement)
15:33:49 <oerjan> life didn't evolve fast _all_ the time, because the environment didn't always change much. punctuated equilibrium, it's called afair
15:35:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, but it still changed, surely you can't just keep the same generation and extrapolate the environment 10 million years? It seems quite possible that then everything will be unfit. I mean, small gradual changes in environment are not too hard to adapt to, compared to sharp changes.
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15:36:49 <oerjan> well species _do_ occasionally die out when they are unfit for a new environment, i presume
15:37:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, even if nothing much happened it seems unlikely to have been completely static, and perhaps some random mutation in the skipped generations would have caused far reaching consequences.
15:37:27 <oerjan> although i don't know how much is environment and how much is new competition
15:37:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, just think of production of oxygen, iirc things were pretty static before that for quite some time.
15:38:01 <oerjan> well naturally not completely static there are _all_ kinds of cycles and events
15:38:48 <AnMaster> btw, I doubt actually simulating the chemical earth is a good idea for such AI evolution.
15:40:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, ooh new idea that ensures a high probability of friendly AI! However it requires some technology we don't yet have. And I have no idea how much storage space it needs...
15:40:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, basically, model a human. Every molecule
15:40:41 <oerjan> primates presumably evolved some of that brain to be able to distinguish a lot of different foods (fruit) visually, they have an extremely varied (and time-varying) diet
15:41:35 <oerjan> because not all forest plants bear fruit at the same time
15:41:45 <oerjan> especially in the tropics
15:42:15 <AnMaster> actually, just simulating a cell down to molecular level should be interesting enough and quite hard.
15:42:42 <oerjan> i'm not entirely convinced emulating humans is the best recipe for friendliness. especially once you try to go _beyond_ human intelligence
15:42:45 <AnMaster> and might help find out how feasible doing anything more advanced would be (I guess it wouldn't at all)
15:43:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm true. but at least you would get an AI passing the turing test
15:43:08 <oerjan> we're not known for being friendly with inferior species
15:44:52 <AnMaster> bbl, strange sound from computer
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16:31:20 <benuphoenix> I just spent three-fourths of my savings on dvds and printer ink last night. Now, I finally have more in my checking account than in my savings account. This sucks.
16:33:18 <benuphoenix> oh, and main(){cout << "I'm an idiot that still uses iosttream." << endl;}
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16:38:24 <benuphoenix> I have a question about brainfuck. How does one output text to standard output using it?
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16:43:21 <benuphoenix> I gotta log off. I'm using my blackberry...
16:46:21 <benuphoenix> sorry about telling the world how broke I am. I'm just pissed at myself for not realizing that having $70 in savings is a bad idea.
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16:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that xkcd's irc bot isn't much more sophisticated than our very own fungot.
16:47:15 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... are you all right? of course! you were so young! you ran around saying " daddy! the children are going?! the king hast been injured? what's the big deal? so what if we won a war out there! can't it see i love my daddy! the children are going!
16:48:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
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16:48:54 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:49:04 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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16:50:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
16:50:47 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
16:50:52 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: holy crap, that was just making that up in time.
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16:52:07 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
16:52:12 <poiuy_qwert> lol, in some programming channel: "<***> its like brainfuck to me"
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16:52:47 <fungot> oerjan: " you, mr. de marigny and phillips, across the putrid moat and under the prevailing stimulus my son wingate would often go up to different heights and scan the fnord waste for signs of dim, fumbling terror about the way he knew it would be
16:55:29 * Phantom_Hoover is going to do horrible things to his X server so as to play Portal
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16:57:24 <poiuy_qwert> yay im on my way to making my IRC bot in an esoteric language!
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18:41:47 <pikhq> Calling all alise. Calling all alise.
18:41:53 <pikhq> Is there an alise in the room?
18:43:50 -!- oerjan has changed nick to MIB.
18:44:03 <MIB> There is no such thing as an alise
18:44:07 -!- MIB has changed nick to oerjan.
18:45:03 <fizzie> Swamp gas, weather balloons, so on.
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18:48:15 <pikhq> http://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender.c I love obfuscated C.
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19:00:12 <ais523> hmm, anything really interesting happen while I was gone?
19:00:21 <ais523> preferably eso-wise, but I don't mind too much if it's offtopic
19:01:07 <pikhq> Well, I did have odd network behavior wherein I could access IRC and Gopher and nothing else.
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19:19:37 <ais523> pikhq: that sounds amusing
19:20:09 <pikhq> Good God it was annoying.
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19:54:38 <AnMaster> I think my adsl modem is having hardware issues
19:56:00 <AnMaster> after rebooting it (due to it becoming unresponsive to dns, then a few minutes later connections dying and finally the webui of the modem itself going down), it had reset about half of the settings
19:56:06 <AnMaster> some with garbage, some with factory defaults
19:56:28 <AnMaster> now I did a clean install of it, and found out I can't let it reboot after it, nor can I restore config
19:56:38 <AnMaster> so there are some settings I can't change
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19:56:59 <AnMaster> ais523, pikhq: ever heard about anything like that?
19:57:20 <ais523> but then, I tend not to mess with modems/routers, I just leave them be
19:57:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well I was leaving it alone when this happened
19:57:52 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I can't use defaults, no password for admin and wep for wlan... :P
19:57:57 <AnMaster> no way I will leave a modem like that
19:58:17 <AnMaster> plus I need to enter PPPoE settings anyway
20:01:11 <AnMaster> ais523, plus it worked okay before...
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20:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover> If I make a filesystem on a file, then mount it, then try to move the file into the mounted filesystem, what happens?
20:24:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The file would have to be larger than the free space in the filesystem.
20:25:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Either the system call fails, or a copy of the filesystem is stuck in the file system, and the reference count of the filesystem's file is decremented.
20:25:21 <pikhq> Meaning that once you unmount the filesystem, it completely disappears.
20:26:39 <pikhq> Same place any non-referenced inodes and blocks go: the free list.
20:26:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm squashfs is read-only isn't it?
20:27:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, also which system call(s) fails? open/read/write/close or unlink?
20:28:09 <AnMaster> well the size thing makes it probably the former group
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20:28:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... rename?
20:28:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, it works between filesystems?
20:29:01 <AnMaster> oh maybe the copy and remove is done in kernel then
20:29:42 <pikhq> rename will return EXDEV, which means the move command does open, read, write, close, and unlink.
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20:29:53 <pikhq> So, it's the second behavior I described, not the first.
20:30:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but it would fail since unless the fs is compressed it will be larger than the space available on that disk
20:30:29 <AnMaster> and compressed fs have a tendency of being read-only
20:30:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: He never said anything about it being compressed.
20:30:49 <pikhq> And many, many filesystems support sparse files.
20:31:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm good point, but doesn't those need some special command to create it?
20:32:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you have to remember mv basically copies the file then removes the original when moving between different mount points
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20:32:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: GNU mv attempts to keep files sparse.
20:32:48 <AnMaster> within a mount point it will just be moved in file hierarchy by the kernel in some way (probably varies between different FS)
20:32:53 <pikhq> And no, there's no "special command" to create it.
20:33:19 <pikhq> Instead, you just seek and write.
20:33:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, so how does it try to keep them sparse?
20:33:52 <AnMaster> well that explains why the copy worked
20:34:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: mv copies the file to the new filesystem. It then unlinks the file in the old filesystem.
20:34:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the image on there is likely corrupt since probably it was written to while mv was reading it
20:34:20 <pikhq> All that an unlink does, though, is remove the name for the inode.
20:34:49 <pikhq> Any program that had the file open is still reading from that inode.
20:35:02 <pikhq> When no programs access it, then the inode is marked free.
20:35:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, correction: if it was the last hardlink the file will be marked as free
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20:35:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Right, right. You can have multiple names attached.
20:35:40 <AnMaster> but the bit about hardlinks is important, otherwise it would cause havoc.
20:35:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is no way to find all attached names is there though?
20:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I can read and write files in the mounted fs without corruption.
20:36:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure there is. Grep.
20:36:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, expected, what I said was that the image stored on that fs is now corrupted
20:36:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm or find /mountpoint -inode or such I bet
20:36:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's because your mounted filesystem is still on the original filesystem.
20:36:45 <AnMaster> iirc you can get the inode with either some ls option or with stat(1)
20:36:52 <pikhq> It just no longer has a *name*.
20:37:20 -!- hiato has changed nick to sheep.
20:37:22 <pikhq> Yes, that's what *we've been fucking telling you*.
20:37:28 -!- sheep has changed nick to hiato.
20:37:37 <pikhq> A UNIX filesystem is reference counted.
20:37:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm can you have more than one name for a symlink? as in ln -s /bin foo; ln foo bar
20:37:46 <fizzie> "ls -i"'s the list-inode option; it's the easiest to remember.
20:37:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Filesystem-dependent.
20:38:28 <AnMaster> I only have ext2/4 handy, and I'm not about to mess around on /boot to try ext2 behaviour
20:38:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, how is it easier to remember than ls -l ?
20:38:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that ext2 filesystems shove the symlink data in the filename structure.
20:38:55 <pikhq> Well. The file structure.
20:38:56 <AnMaster> at least ls -l you use sometimes
20:39:15 <pikhq> (along with the filename, permissions, extended attributes, etc.)
20:39:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, so that means it wouldn't or would work?
20:39:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: Wouldn't, as a symlink does not have an inode.
20:39:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: The superlative may have been superfluous. Let's settle for "easy to remember".
20:41:18 <AnMaster> doh anyway this /boot is ext3, I wonder why
20:41:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, ext4 shows inode numbers for ls -i
20:41:54 <fizzie> "Ext2fs implements fast symbolic links. A fast symbolic link does not use any data block on the filesystem. The target name is not stored in a data block but in the inode itself."
20:41:59 <fizzie> So it has an inode; it doesn't have data.
20:42:00 <AnMaster> and yeah ext2 I can't find any of atm, seems I have all my /boots as ext3
20:42:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ah, I'm having a thinko.
20:42:23 <pikhq> The inode *is* where the file stuff is stored.
20:42:26 <fizzie> (Though they say the fast symlinks have a maximum length limit of 60 chars. Might be dependant on inode size though.)
20:42:44 <pikhq> And a hardlink is a new inode that points to the same blocks as another one.
20:43:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is the filename then, is it not stored with the inode?
20:43:17 <AnMaster> hm probably in directory structure
20:43:24 <pikhq> Directory structure.
20:43:29 <AnMaster> also doesn't ext4 store very small files inline in the inode or something?
20:43:46 <AnMaster> so hardlinks wouldn't work for those?
20:43:48 <pikhq> Ext4 also doesn't use blocks for very *large* files when it can.
20:44:04 <pikhq> No, I think hardlinking will force ext4 to create a block.
20:44:23 <pikhq> Hardlinking *is* a system call. It can do that. ;)
20:44:40 <AnMaster> symlinking must be some system call too I guess
20:45:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure "hardlink is a new inode that points to the same blocks as another one" is true, because I believe it's the inode that stores the link count.
20:45:48 <AnMaster> and they have the same inode number
20:46:05 <AnMaster> yep test shows they get same inode number (regular file)
20:46:43 <AnMaster> "POSIX.1-2001 says that link() should dereference oldpath if it is a symbolic link. However, since kernel 2.0, Linux does not do so: if oldpath is a symbolic link, then newpath is created as a (hard) link to the same symbolic link file (i.e., newpath becomes a symbolic link to the same file that oldpath refers to)."
20:46:52 <fizzie> Also ls here seems to color "link count >1" files differently. If I have noticed this before, I've forgotten.
20:47:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, not here, but then ls on my laptop and desktop follow slightly different rules sometimes
20:47:42 <AnMaster> "POSIX.1-2008 changes the specification of link(), making it implementation-dependent whether or not oldpath is dereferenced if it is a symbolic link."
20:50:25 <fizzie> dircolors --print-database says "HARDLINK 44;37 # regular file with more than one link", so it at least provides a possibility to colorize it differently.
20:51:10 <fizzie> Also sockets and doors have the same color here. Not that I'm very likely to run across a door.
20:51:52 <AnMaster> btw wonderful word "a nondirectory"
20:52:06 <pikhq> One thing I absolutely *despise* about Wikipedia's new design.
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20:52:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh don't get me started on google's new design
20:52:34 <pikhq> They have an uncacheable Javascript file in the head of the file.
20:52:45 <pikhq> That takes *forever* to load.
20:53:06 <AnMaster> don't think I allowed scripts on wp
20:53:35 <pikhq> No, wait, those are cachable. What *else* is it that's taking forever?
20:53:43 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: If you have an account you can change it back to the old Monobook skin.
20:54:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so I have an excuse to log in.
20:54:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:54:22 * pikhq shall log in and purge that
20:54:36 * Sgeo wikistalks pikhq
20:55:20 <pikhq> It's like Wikipedia never considered that some people have high-latency Internet.
20:56:36 <Sgeo> pikhq, why do you use Satellite?
20:56:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: The alternatives are worse.
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20:57:15 * Sgeo would die with high-latency Internet
20:57:33 <pikhq> Would you prefer a modem?
20:57:35 <uorygl> 1translate Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensyöjänä.
20:57:41 <pikhq> Because that's the alternative.
20:57:47 <uorygl> `translate Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensyöjänä.
20:57:53 <HackEgo> The early days of domestication, dogs have been useful as well as a warning vahtina jätteensyöjänä.
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20:58:17 <Deewiant> jätteensyöjänä == as a garbage eater
20:58:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: 30k, normally.
20:58:48 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Web designers are assholes.
20:58:50 <uorygl> pikhq: do you live in a rural place, then?
20:58:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: Too much line noise.
20:59:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, way faster than what I had in 1996 or so. which was ~28k
20:59:17 <pikhq> Yes. In '96 people didnt'
20:59:24 <pikhq> didn't make megabyte-sized pages.
20:59:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, megabyte? that is small ;P
20:59:57 <AnMaster> (though more would be annoying over internet)
21:00:06 <uorygl> Feel free to run an Ethernet cable to my house and leech.
21:00:31 <pikhq> Man, logging into Wikipedia *really* makes Wikipedia go faster.
21:00:59 <AnMaster> what does cf. stand for in English exactly? I know how it is used but not what the letters stand for
21:01:03 <uorygl> Hmm, now I want to go to a rural area and figure out a way to get good Internet.
21:01:04 <pikhq> Even Google's AJAX stuff isn't as bad. At least their Javascript gets *cached*.
21:01:23 <ais523> it means "compare", but I don't know what it stands for either
21:01:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that a real word?
21:01:41 <uorygl> Looks like "confer" is a Latin word meaning "compare".
21:01:45 <uorygl> And also an English word meaning something else.
21:01:46 <Deewiant> In that meaning, it's archaic, though
21:01:51 <pikhq> uorygl: Murder the phone company execs who *pocketed* the money that was given to them in order to let them offer good Internet in rural areas.
21:01:56 <ais523> looking it up, it does stand for "confer", which is Latin for "compare"
21:02:03 <AnMaster> "Definitions of confer on the Web:
21:02:03 <AnMaster> * have a conference in order to talk something over; "We conferred about a plan of action"
21:02:03 <AnMaster> * present; "The university conferred a degree on its most famous former student, who never graduated"; "bestow an honor on someone"
21:02:03 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn"
21:02:03 <ais523> rather than the English "confer" which means something quite different
21:02:07 <Deewiant> It means compare in English as well, just hasn't been used with that meaning for some hundreds of years
21:02:36 <uorygl> pikhq: well, how will that help? :P
21:02:41 <pikhq> WE GAVE THEM 200 FUCKING BILLION DOLLARS IN ORDER TO GET FIBER ALMOST EVERYWHERE IN THE 90S. AND DAMMIT I WANT MY 100 MEGABIT INTERNET.
21:02:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]).
21:02:59 <ais523> the English word "confer" tends to be mostly used in quiz shows, talking about whether contestants are allowed to talk to team-mates before answering
21:03:10 <pikhq> Deewiant: No, I'm the "few hundred feet too far to get DSL".
21:03:35 <Deewiant> As in, "almost everybody can get DSL".
21:03:47 <pikhq> Yeah, that's not what we paid for.
21:04:01 <pikhq> We paid for Japan's infrastructure and got this piece of crap.
21:04:14 <uorygl> Is there another person within a few hundred feet of you who has DSL who you could get some Internet from?
21:04:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Equivalent to Japan's current infrastructure.
21:04:56 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:05:21 <pikhq> If you'll note, $200 billion is a ton of money.
21:05:43 <oerjan> `calc 200 billion USD / 1 ton
21:05:45 <HackEgo> (200 billion U.S. dollars) / (1 short ton) = 220 462 262 U.S. Dollars / kg
21:06:02 <uorygl> So, how do we know that the phone company guys simply pocketed the money?
21:06:15 <oerjan> `calc 1 ton / 200 billion USD
21:06:17 <HackEgo> (1 short ton) / (200 billion U.S. dollars) = 4.5359237 10^-9 kg / U.S. Dollar
21:06:35 <oerjan> pikhq: i _say_ you're overestimating a bit
21:07:08 <pikhq> uorygl: Because they say as much.
21:07:50 <pikhq> They have nearly zero competition here. And nearly zero incentive to improve anything.
21:08:03 <uorygl> pikhq: so where do they say that?
21:09:58 <oerjan> hm wait that's underestimating
21:10:21 <uorygl> AnMaster: there is no command called convert.
21:10:31 <AnMaster> uorygl, it would give an error
21:10:39 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: type: convert: not found
21:10:58 <uorygl> Yep, that's what it does.
21:11:48 <uorygl> That's a rather excellent pun.
21:12:04 <oerjan> alas it's also mixing metaphors
21:12:19 <uorygl> Not only is it a cross between "bit the dust" and "kicked the bucket", but it also refers to the "bit bucket", a place where information goes to die.
21:12:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:14:25 <AnMaster> uorygl, but it didn't bucket the bits :(
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21:19:10 <uorygl> So, we can all agree that C is practically Turing-complete. Is it still practically Turing-complete without malloc?
21:19:26 <pikhq> No, C is not Turing-complete.
21:19:56 <pikhq> No. It still has finite memory and is thus not Turing-complete.
21:20:14 <oerjan> well then just use a large global array :)
21:20:22 <pikhq> It's about as stupid as saying "the reals are practically computable".
21:20:31 <uorygl> oerjan: yeah, I guess that works.
21:20:35 <pikhq> But anyways. malloc can be written in pure C.
21:20:39 <pikhq> Just need a very large array.
21:21:04 <pikhq> You have a very large array.
21:21:12 <pikhq> You use this as the heap for your malloc implementation.
21:21:42 <uorygl> What if you didn't have arrays?
21:21:53 <uorygl> Or if they were limited in size.
21:22:04 <pikhq> *Then* you're reduced to using the stack for allocation.
21:22:56 <pikhq> (this is necessarily finite, but only about as much as the rest of memory in C. Most implementations limit it further.)
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21:30:39 <uorygl> Does having to use the stack for allocation really interfere with flow control?
21:31:11 <oerjan> well to allocate more memory you need to do a call that never returns...
21:31:39 <oerjan> which means essentially using continuation passing style afaict
21:31:50 <uorygl> Yeah. And how difficult is CPS in C?
21:32:02 <pikhq> Actually, not that hard.
21:32:26 <pikhq> Tedious, but not hard.
21:32:45 <pikhq> As you have function pointers, and can manually pass the environment around.
21:35:11 <uorygl> How do you use a function pointer?
21:36:22 <pikhq> Let's say you have a void (*foo)(void). To call foo, you just do: foo();
21:43:15 <AnMaster> from man pts(4): "Pseudo-terminals can also be used to send input to programs that normally refuse to read input from pipes (such as su(1), and passwd(1))."
21:43:24 <AnMaster> well, why, if it is so easy to work around
21:43:32 <AnMaster> I mean, what is the point of them refusing pipes
21:45:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:45:59 <AnMaster> another wtf: "The behavior of grantpt() is unspecified if a signal handler is installed to catch SIGCHLD signals."
21:46:54 <uorygl> Well, for su(1), it's clear enough.
21:47:19 <pikhq> Probably to make it impossible for the password to be echoed?
21:48:06 -!- augur has joined.
21:48:12 <uorygl> If I do foo | su -c bar | baz, I want foo's output to go to bar, not be interpreted as a password.
21:48:23 <Sgeo> AnMaster, that sounds useful for Normish.. if Normish weren't dying
21:48:34 <ais523> presumably it's for avoiding stupid mistakes, rather than deliberate attempts to manipulate it
21:48:47 <Sgeo> The pseudo-terminal to send input to passwd
21:48:55 <Sgeo> So we could have a working addplayer
21:49:13 <ais523> doesn't adduser have an option to set the password at random and send it somewhere?
21:49:14 <Sgeo> uorygl, please save Normish kthx
21:49:19 <ais523> or am I thinking of the GUI version?
21:49:38 <AnMaster> ais523, some adduser/useradd have that
21:50:02 <AnMaster> it is funny how I have both adduser and useradd on my system
21:50:53 <uorygl> adduser is the friendly one, useradd is the unfriendly one.
21:51:00 <uorygl> adduser is the P one, useradd is the V one. :P
21:51:32 <AnMaster> well it is a bash script on arch and a perl script on ubuntu
21:53:03 <uorygl> P refers to things that are designed to be easy to use. V refers to things that are designed to be easy to implement.
21:53:22 <uorygl> Examples of P programming languages are Python, Perl, and PHP. Examples of V programming languages are Verilog and VHDL.
21:53:47 <AnMaster> uorygl, what about C++? It is neither
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21:54:23 <AnMaster> uorygl, also I doubt implementing VHDL or Verilog synthesis is easy at all
21:54:36 <uorygl> I know very little about C++.
21:54:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, well I know only a tiny bit and it is more than I want to know
21:55:17 <uorygl> Verilog is like VHDL, except that the language itself is designed well, rather than simply tolerating good design. :P
21:55:28 <pikhq> uorygl: Take C++. Add poorly-implemented features.
21:55:41 <ais523> pikhq: no, that's SystemC
21:55:45 <pikhq> You then go into a loop with that body.
21:55:59 <ais523> which is orders of magnitude stupider than either Verilog or VHDL
21:56:25 <pikhq> uorygl: C++ has a Turing-complete type system and the C preprocessor for metaprogramming options.
21:57:15 <ais523> one thing that annoys me about VHDL is it doesn't allow recursion in the preprocessor
21:57:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm? do you mean the templates?
21:57:25 <AnMaster> I guess they are part of the type system
21:57:26 <ais523> at least, the syntax allows it, but every simulator I know crashes when you try
21:57:27 <pikhq> Because of this type system, C++ parsing is undecidable.
21:57:54 <uorygl> It's easy to hate C++ if you want to!
21:57:56 <ais523> however, it /is/ expressive enough that you can simulate bounded recursion by using a bunch of polynomials in the preprocessor, which is arguably worse
21:58:00 <ais523> uorygl: it's easy to hate it anyway
21:58:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, but the templates act all preprocessorish, as in, things you would expect worked if it was in compiler instead of preprocessor doesn't work
21:58:10 <ais523> I don't hate C++ because of an undecidable type system
21:58:14 <ais523> but there are other reasons to dislike it
21:58:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, like implementation outside header
21:58:38 <Sgeo> Wait, C++ types are Turing-complete?
21:58:41 <Sgeo> That sounds like a feature
21:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, does VHDL have a preprocessor?
21:58:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: *Unintentionally so*.
21:59:00 <ais523> AnMaster: well, depending on your opinion, pretty much the entire language is a preprocessor
21:59:01 <Sgeo> Example, please/
21:59:04 <ais523> but I'm thinking of for-generate loops
21:59:14 <ais523> which I consider a preprocessor, based on what they actually do
21:59:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: template <typename T> struct foo { ... };
21:59:32 <pikhq> This is equivalent to the following Haskell statement: foo t = ...
21:59:33 <ais523> basically, for loops, except they're semantically unrolled rather than semantically being repetition
22:00:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what would you use recursion for there? I haven't used it but I imagine it would be useful to make stuff like n-bit adders from full adders or such
22:00:15 <AnMaster> combined with generics or such
22:00:26 <Sgeo> pikhq, how do you do Factorials in C++ type system?
22:00:36 <ais523> O(log n) time, O(n) space
22:01:17 <pikhq> template <int N> struct Factorial {enum { value = N * Factorial<N - 1>::value };};template <>struct Factorial<0>{enum { value = 0};};template<>struct Factorial<1>{enum {value = 1};};
22:01:18 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't you make a perfect sorting network? I mean, just write a huge Karnaugh diagram for all possible inputs or something XD
22:01:33 <ais523> oh yes, you can get O(1) time for sorting in hardware if you really really want to
22:01:39 <pikhq> Yes, the pattern matching works the opposite of what you'd expect.
22:01:40 <ais523> but the space term is so horrible I don't want to imagine it
22:01:56 <ais523> (and of course, it only works for an input of given size)
22:02:00 <AnMaster> ais523, for something like 4 inputs it couldn't be too bad?
22:02:20 <uorygl> There, that should grow fast enough.
22:02:36 <ais523> AnMaster: depends on how wide the inputs are
22:02:38 <AnMaster> uorygl, size of that O(1) sort?
22:02:42 <pikhq> C++ metaprogramming should, IMO, be commented with the equivalent Haskell.
22:02:47 <ais523> the other thing to mention is that there's no such thing as a hardware comparison sort
22:02:54 <ais523> because you have to know the bounds of the data type to be able to implement them
22:02:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well I meant 4 input bits split into equal sizes
22:02:59 <uorygl> AnMaster: an upper bound thereon.
22:03:05 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that sorts rather trivially
22:03:16 <pikhq> In this case: factorial 0 = 0;factorial 1 = 1;factorial n = n * factorial (n-1)
22:03:21 <AnMaster> uorygl, that notation doesn't make sense to me
22:03:23 <uorygl> (!)^n means "factorial n times".
22:03:44 <uorygl> So for 1, it's 1!; for 2, it's 2!! (to slightly abuse notation); for 3, it's 3!!!, and so on.
22:04:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what are the gates you use in a sorting network btw, you need something clocked I assume?
22:04:15 <ais523> yep, it was done synchronously
22:04:26 <AnMaster> well not need as such, presumably you could do it async
22:04:30 <ais523> and built out of serial 2-input sorters
22:04:52 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? I don't think I'm familiar with that
22:04:58 <Sgeo> Is Verilog FOSS?
22:05:01 <ais523> well, they aren't a standard component
22:05:05 <ais523> Sgeo: it's a programming language
22:05:10 <ais523> you might as well say "is C FOSS"?
22:05:25 <ais523> as for whether there are FOSS implementations, I'm not sure
22:05:38 <AnMaster> verilog have more FOSS implementations than VHDL
22:05:40 <ais523> but it seems likely that there are no completely-FOSS Verilog/VHDL synthesizers
22:05:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:06:15 <uorygl> Is there something that compiles Verilog into a circuit diagram? :P
22:06:29 <uorygl> A circuit diagram consisting only of transistors!
22:06:37 <AnMaster> electric (EDA for ICs) supports some limited VHDL for generating substrate layout (or whatever it was called)
22:06:44 <ais523> uorygl: the expensive synthesizers can synthesize for FPGA, then translate back into a circuit diagram
22:06:51 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to do that
22:06:52 <AnMaster> not for generating schematics iirc
22:07:14 <uorygl> Hmm, we should compile Verilog into BBM instead.
22:07:20 <AnMaster> ais523, for making a pretty pic to show those who pay you?
22:07:42 <uorygl> The problem, of course, is that BBM is reversible.
22:07:51 <uorygl> The Billiard Ball Machine.
22:08:09 -!- ws has joined.
22:08:11 <uorygl> Computing via steel balls hitting blocks and each other.
22:08:29 <AnMaster> I wonder if you could design reversible circuits in VHDL
22:08:53 <uorygl> Sure you can. Just make your circuit reversible, and it'll be reversible.
22:09:02 <AnMaster> btw did I mention what I planned to do this summer?
22:09:13 <AnMaster> write a befunge-93 interpreter in vhdl (or verilog)
22:09:24 <AnMaster> (but since I took a VHDL course at uni it will probably be that)
22:09:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:09:39 <AnMaster> since I don't have any FPGA it will likely be ghdl-tested only
22:10:04 <uorygl> Build your circuit out of Toffoli gates.
22:10:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, exactly, can you do that in VHDL, after all it is rather high level often. And I doubt many FPGAs have such gates
22:10:52 <uorygl> Sure, a Toffoli gate can easily be described in VHDL.
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22:11:50 <AnMaster> uorygl, well okay, but will it be synthesised into one. Rather than a combination of other gates
22:12:30 <uorygl> I think FPGAs never synthesise any gates at all into themselves.
22:12:34 -!- maedhros777 has joined.
22:13:09 <uorygl> Instead, they use lookup tables.
22:13:17 <maedhros777> hiato: Sorry to bother you, but I was wondering how your method of increasing primes would work with complex zeroes.
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22:14:49 <uorygl> Yeah. The Wikipedia article on FPGAs gives a pretend FPGA architecture; it's like a typical FPGA but simpler.
22:14:59 <hiato> maedhros777: Why would there be complex zeroes?
22:15:39 <AnMaster> uorygl, also what about latches and such
22:15:40 <uorygl> Each cell has four inputs, which go into a lookup table, producing one output, which may go through a flip-flop.
22:15:53 <uorygl> So, you get one lookup table and one flip-flip.
22:15:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, what about a latch then? rather than a flip-flop
22:16:16 <uorygl> Depends on what the difference between a latch and a flip-flop is.
22:16:26 <AnMaster> uorygl, latch would be async afaik
22:16:53 <uorygl> I guess you could construct that easily. Feed its output back into it as an input, and also have the two other inputs.
22:17:28 <uorygl> Not necessarily, is it?
22:17:29 <AnMaster> you can make a flip-flop out of a latch (iirc that is the normal way of doing it) but not the other way around
22:17:40 <AnMaster> you could built it out of gates though
22:17:52 <uorygl> Right, that's what I'm saying to do.
22:17:56 <AnMaster> two nor with suitable feedback...
22:18:02 <maedhros777> hiato, any idea how to encode with complex zeroes?
22:18:43 <uorygl> You can do that with a single LUT.
22:19:31 <uorygl> You can make that SR-latch with a single LUT.
22:19:41 <uorygl> If it has one bit of state which is also its one bit of output.
22:19:50 <AnMaster> uorygl, well probably if you only have one of the outputs
22:20:07 <AnMaster> you need 3 inputs, set/reset/feedback
22:20:25 <AnMaster> the classical SR-latch have both "normal" and "inverted" outputs though
22:21:13 <uorygl> Then you'll have to use a second LUT to provide that.
22:21:19 <AnMaster> uorygl, well, because it is symmetric which one is which is arbitrary as long as you swap the inputs too
22:21:32 <maedhros777> Ilari, would you have any ideas for complex zeroes?
22:21:52 <uorygl> An FPGA doesn't let you use "just an inverter"; all you get is LUTs and flip-flops, more or less.
22:22:09 <uorygl> Anyway, how's this for a Toffoli gate? http://pastebin.com/HFZNVdc1
22:22:55 <AnMaster> I don't know verilog, only VHDL (and only basic VHDL so far)
22:23:27 <uorygl> Well, it can't be very much different from VHDL.
22:23:43 <AnMaster> well true, somewhat different syntax
22:23:52 <ais523> they're basically the same lang with different syntax
22:24:04 <ais523> they were originally rather different, but they each stole features from the other until they became basically identical
22:24:21 <ais523> and they're still doing it; if something becomes standard in Verilog, it tends to go into the next version of the VHDL standard, and vice versa
22:24:30 <maedhros777> Does anyone here know how complex zeroes can be encoded in a function so that their order is distinct?
22:24:52 <uorygl> maedhros777: what are we trying to do, here?
22:24:58 <maedhros777> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial
22:25:33 <maedhros777> Reals are encoded by increasing primes, but i'm not sure what to do about complex zeroes
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22:26:06 <soupdragon> A Polynomial program is of the form f(x) = 3x^2 + x + 7, where the polynomial begins with "f(x) = "
22:26:25 <ais523> reminds me a bit of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula
22:26:50 <ais523> different, but related
22:26:52 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
22:26:59 <ais523> I was wondering about just editing it into the see also of your article
22:27:13 <AnMaster> uorygl, I think this would work for vhdl http://sprunge.us/YMcO
22:27:36 <uorygl> AnMaster: looks right.
22:27:51 <uorygl> maedhros777: I'm looking.
22:27:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, that verilog looks like a process what with the "always" thingy?
22:28:00 <ais523> hmm, that article needs categories while it's at it
22:28:08 <ais523> maedhros777: what year did the language first become public? this one?
22:28:20 <AnMaster> uorygl, oh and can't you have multiple architectures in verilog?
22:28:20 <uorygl> AnMaster: I guess Verilog doesn't let you constantly execute something; "always" means "whenever", and "*" means "something changes".
22:28:46 <AnMaster> uorygl, well my VHDL was async I think?
22:29:07 <uorygl> AnMaster: I guess an "architecture" is what you call what Verilog calls modules.
22:29:23 <Ilari> maedhros777: Maybe use newton to try to find one (start from complex number), then when found, divide it out and do the same again until you get constant function...
22:29:24 <AnMaster> uorygl, you can have multiple implementations of the same entity
22:29:34 <AnMaster> uorygl, that is what the architecture means
22:29:42 <AnMaster> uorygl, the entity is more like a module.
22:29:50 <uorygl> AnMaster: oh, how does that work?
22:29:58 <Phantom_Hoover> maedhros: There's a crapload of stuff on ordering multiple numbers in the logs from a few weeks ago.
22:30:15 <AnMaster> uorygl, the entity defines the "outside" appearance. The architecture what is done
22:30:34 <ais523> maedhros777: cats added, tweak at will
22:30:38 <AnMaster> uorygl, iirc you can select which architecture to use, it defaults to one of them (forgot which, ask ais)
22:30:43 <maedhros777> Ilari: What would I be trying to find from the complex number?
22:30:44 <Ilari> maedhros777: If all coefficients are real, you can divide complex roots in pairs and keep the function as real.
22:31:10 <AnMaster> uorygl, iirc part of the reason may be one is only possible to simulate and not to synthesise or such.
22:31:18 <AnMaster> at least that is one reason I heard
22:31:27 <AnMaster> ais mentioned some other ones iirc
22:31:46 <ais523> hmm, first time I've ever had an edit conflict on Esolang
22:31:49 <ais523> cats actually added this time
22:32:02 <AnMaster> uorygl, well, if you use console IO it probably makes a good test bench but not so good FPGA ;P
22:32:30 <uorygl> maedhros777: I find the "we might be tempted to deduce" slightly offensive. :P
22:32:47 <AnMaster> uorygl, but yeah, ask ais523 about why you want multiple architectures
22:33:09 <ais523> uorygl: basically, because of the hugely closed nature of most FPGA ecosystems
22:33:22 <uorygl> "I have a cat in this box. You might be tempted to deduce that this box contains a cat. But actually, by 'in', I meant 'on top of'!"
22:33:25 <ais523> "better" architectures are more expensive than worse ones
22:33:43 <ais523> uorygl: heh, "in" and "on top of" are the same word in Latin
22:34:09 <uorygl> Hmm, and the Spanish word "en" means both as well.
22:34:18 <Ilari> maedhros777: Like x^3 - x^2 + x - 1 = 0. x = i is solution, so you can divide by (x - i)(x + i) = x^2 + 1 to get x - 1.
22:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't hard to imagine situations were it would be unclear which is meant and doing it wrong would be rather irritating
22:34:52 <maedhros777> Ilari: Why would you divide, though? Because some language statements involve complex zeroes
22:35:07 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a reason why the ancient Romans normally used Greek for discussions about science
22:35:26 <uorygl> maedhros777: you can still divide complex zeros out.
22:35:33 <Ilari> maedhros777: Ensures that root finding won't find that root again.
22:35:44 <uorygl> Unless, of course, it was a double root.
22:35:55 <Ilari> maedhros777: And you also see if there are higher-order roots.
22:36:06 <maedhros777> But how will you know which order the complex zeroes are in?
22:36:13 <AnMaster> <uorygl> Hmm, and the Spanish word "en" means both as well. <-- insert obvious joke with regards to Spanish economy
22:36:16 <Ilari> maedhros777: You can't.
22:36:28 <AnMaster> (at least i hope it is obvious)
22:36:44 <uorygl> I like the Newton's method idea. Start at 0, see which root you find; that's the first one you execute.
22:36:51 <AnMaster> (the placed the money on top of the bank instead in it, see not strange they have financial problems!)
22:37:29 <maedhros777> But that limits programs from executing in different order
22:37:44 <uorygl> maedhros777: I notice that all the language does is start with a number and perform a series of operations on it.
22:37:50 <AnMaster> maedhros777, do the roots have some well defined order at all?
22:38:06 <uorygl> Well, yeah. Esoteric programming languages limit you. :)
22:38:09 <uorygl> AnMaster: no, they don't.
22:38:54 <AnMaster> and you could order any roots anywhere, just do something like order numerically by real, then imaginary. Or write it down and use the ascii value
22:39:54 <AnMaster> maedhros777, "3+4.2i" == 51,43,52,46,50,105
22:40:07 <AnMaster> at least that is what converting it in erlang told me
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22:40:40 <AnMaster> if you limit yourself to ASCII you can get a number from it that is 6 bytes
22:40:48 <AnMaster> maedhros777, well you can sort by that
22:40:56 <AnMaster> to get a well defined ordering of the numbers
22:41:14 <uorygl> AnMaster: it's not really well-defined.
22:41:21 <uorygl> Suppose the real part is nonterminating.
22:41:39 <uorygl> Well, I guess it's obvious enough how to fix that.
22:41:41 <AnMaster> uorygl, bah, double isn't infinite precision ;P
22:41:58 <maedhros777> All complex numbers are Gaussian in Polynomial
22:42:21 <AnMaster> but sure, sorting numerically by real then imaginary is probably saner
22:42:32 <uorygl> What if you have a number with multiple decimal expansions? :P
22:42:38 <maedhros777> Limiting...but I may have no other choice.
22:43:00 <AnMaster> (it is fun combining math with engineering)
22:43:04 <uorygl> Well-defined and undefined are mutually exclusive concepts. :)
22:43:07 <AnMaster> (neither profession will like it)
22:43:24 <AnMaster> maedhros777, what is it you are trying to accomplish though
22:43:56 <AnMaster> maedhros777, so what is the language in question
22:43:57 <maedhros777> Something similar to the ascending primes idea
22:44:05 <maedhros777> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial
22:44:08 <AnMaster> maedhros777, also just add a line number then. Like BASIC
22:44:08 <ais523> maybe you could sort anti-clockwise?
22:44:16 <ais523> then by distance from the origin?
22:44:28 <soupdragon> maedhros777: why not just write in a list of numbers? why go via polynomials
22:44:49 <AnMaster> soupdragon, this is #esoteric, that's why
22:44:54 <maedhros777> soupdragon: Because polynomials are cool :)
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22:45:32 <maedhros777> ais523: interesting idea, maybe I'll do that
22:46:04 <maedhros777> Because if I did it by order of a in a + bi, everything might be screwed up
22:46:10 <AnMaster> maedhros777, why not in the order written in the program?
22:46:24 <uorygl> Here's my esoteric programming language: http://pastebin.com/cmLyEHJM
22:47:22 <AnMaster> uorygl, Newtons method is numerical?
22:47:31 <AnMaster> I think there may be more than one Newton's method
22:47:37 <uorygl> Newton's method is numerical, yes, but too bad.
22:47:46 <uorygl> I recall only one Newton's method.
22:47:46 <AnMaster> uorygl, how many iterations then?
22:48:03 <AnMaster> uorygl, the one I remember was related to differentiation?
22:48:16 <uorygl> Enough that you're absolutely certain of which root it's approaching.
22:48:24 <uorygl> Newton's method does involve differentiation, yes.
22:54:15 <maedhros777> Maybe I could use the ascending primes method with b in a + bi
22:54:53 <maedhros777> b can't be too large because there are certain set possible values of b, so that might work
22:55:15 <maedhros777> Only problem would be with i and 2i (output and input)
22:56:55 <maedhros777> Any ideas for i and 2i (the special cases)?
22:57:15 <AnMaster> maedhros777, can't b be any integer?
22:57:20 <uorygl> maedhros777: sorry, I don't know what you're trying to get across.
22:57:32 <uorygl> How does the ascending primes method even work with a + bi?
22:58:46 <uorygl> So, i becomes 2^1 * i and 2i becomes 2^2 * i?
22:58:52 <uorygl> I don't see a problem there.
22:59:32 <maedhros777> I'm off to change the wiki page for Polynomial now
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22:59:38 <uorygl> I must admit I prefer my language, though. :P
23:00:09 <soupdragon> the input is two numbers, the output is a binary sequence
23:00:20 <soupdragon> based on which paths are taking in the GCD algorithm
23:00:50 <soupdragon> the binary sequence is used to train (good/bad) an AI what to do
23:01:28 <soupdragon> but the AI is only allowed to communicate to the outside world using pictures downloaded from the internet
23:01:39 <soupdragon> (so that it can't trick you to let it out)
23:01:54 <ais523> soupdragon: I don't see why that restriction would matter much
23:02:08 <uorygl> Couldn't it just download pictures of letters?
23:02:26 <uorygl> How do you disallow it?
23:02:46 <uorygl> Yes, but how do you make it heed the difference?
23:03:08 <uorygl> If you can make it heed the difference between a letter and a non-letter, you might as well make it heed the difference between right and wrong.
23:03:24 <AnMaster> uorygl, you use a monitor AI to do it XD
23:03:43 <uorygl> That could get exciting. :)
23:03:54 <AnMaster> uorygl, an infinite series of AIs
23:05:08 <Sgeo> Well, the monitor AI wouldn't really be able to communicate with the monitored.. no, it could
23:05:17 <Sgeo> If the monitored AI receives "accepted/rejected"
23:05:27 <uorygl> The monitored AI wouldn't have to receive those.
23:05:54 <uorygl> It could just spit out lots of letters, blissfully unaware that they're being rejected. :)
23:05:59 <soupdragon> the binary sequence is LEFT/RIGHT commands for a turtle
23:06:20 <AnMaster> soupdragon, oh so now it can drive around in letter shapes
23:06:45 <AnMaster> and also being stabbed by a turtle pen
23:07:01 <AnMaster> look those robots can be vicious.
23:07:02 <uorygl> Programming languages should not have output, because communication can be used to take over the world. :)
23:09:59 <pikhq> uorygl: There should be a single output for all computers.
23:10:06 <pikhq> A single flashing LED, in NORAD.
23:10:37 * Sgeo doesn't know if he should be excited or upset about tomorrow
23:10:59 <uorygl> You should probably be excited, since it's probably not a school-required thing.
23:11:04 <Sgeo> Exciting: Major marriage in a webcomic (although there's now a cold feet issue). Upsetting: SG-1 will no longer be available
23:12:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Air Force base. Underneath a mountain.
23:12:28 <Sgeo> Yeah, this is what my life is like. The most interesting.. dammit, Internet connection
23:12:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
23:12:30 <pikhq> Designed to survive a nuclear blast.
23:12:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:12:38 <Sgeo> Yeah, this is what my life is like. The most interesting.. dammit, Internet connection
23:12:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, a bit hard to take off what with the mountain on top?
23:13:12 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Yeah, this is what my life is like. The most interesting.. dammit, Internet connection
23:13:28 <Sgeo> I was lagging out
23:13:33 <AnMaster> Sgeo, "* Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)"
23:13:36 <Sgeo> Didn't think it would be received
23:13:48 <uorygl> The thing about computers is that it's difficult to make them not output via heat and stuff.
23:14:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, could be temporary lag spike
23:14:05 <Sgeo> Um, I disconnected and reconnected my router
23:14:08 <AnMaster> Sgeo, you have to wait a bit to be sure
23:14:09 <pikhq> uorygl: We'll magine.
23:14:10 <Sgeo> And did a /server
23:14:41 * Sgeo does not fake connection issues, really!
23:14:51 <Sgeo> AnMaster, hulu
23:15:13 <pikhq> Probably something like destroy them if their temperature fluctuates greater than some epsilon.
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23:15:34 <uorygl> So they'll be able to determine whether they're destroyed or not.
23:15:45 <uorygl> I once devised a scheme for ensuring that information doesn't escape something.
23:15:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, you mean, illegally?
23:16:00 <pikhq> uorygl: Yes, so they can send at most one bit. Ever.
23:16:11 <uorygl> On the contrary, they can do it at a symbolic time.
23:16:16 <AnMaster> Sgeo, well that is up to you, just tcpdump everything, I guess that isn't legal either then
23:16:36 <Sgeo> I don't think I have time
23:16:36 <pikhq> Yes, but it's still exactly one bit of output.
23:16:40 <Sgeo> Nor space on this computer
23:16:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, how would you ensure that?
23:16:50 <uorygl> If you can choose when it's output, that's not exactly one bit of output.
23:17:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, couldn't it change the state later to construct a serial stream?
23:17:16 <AnMaster> or would it have a one-off manual reset?
23:17:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Destroyed*.
23:17:42 <uorygl> Anyway. First, put the thing inside a case it cannot escape from. Then, submerge it in a tank filled with hot saltwater, with metal filings to keep it from floating to the top or sinking to the bottom.
23:18:26 <pikhq> uorygl: Okay, fine. We use a time machine. We erase the computer from existence if its temperature fluctuates.
23:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it practical to get effectively free data storage by sticking lots of cheap, low-ish capacity (1-2G) flash drives together in a RAID?
23:18:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, but then you will probably kill yourself before you could go back and do so!
23:19:07 <uorygl> Have a pipe at the bottom that sucks out the filings, making them into an inverted cone shape, so that the thing doesn't float to the sides. Have the filings detonated alongside a nuclear bomb.
23:19:16 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: how would that be effectively free?
23:19:35 <AnMaster> yeah what uorygl said, plus you need card read, lots of them
23:19:35 <uorygl> Flash drives cost money.
23:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I have *tonnes* of flash drives lying around my house.
23:19:53 <AnMaster> uorygl, they are handed out for free at conventions and such iirc
23:20:13 <AnMaster> I have some old I got from people who got them at conferences and such and didn't want them
23:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> USB ports may be an issue, but they are very cheap and I have a few already.
23:20:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, well 256 MB and 1 GB are the ones I can find atm
23:21:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (I have them because my parents are doctors and drug companies are allowed to bribe them)
23:21:36 <AnMaster> well, here they aren't allowed to bribe I think
23:21:41 <uorygl> I should become a doctor so that I get free flash drives. :P
23:22:35 <AnMaster> heck some of the ones I have are also medical related (guy who I got them from works in neuroscience or such... academic, not doctor)
23:22:45 <AnMaster> one says something about ADHD research on it
23:24:27 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you create local variables in VHDL?
23:24:39 <ais523> I can't remember, but it's possible
23:24:41 <uorygl> Let's see, you can get a terabyte SSD for about $3,000...
23:24:43 <ais523> that's not really very helpful...
23:24:50 <ais523> (and both local variables and local signals are possible)
23:24:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what? internal signals?
23:24:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I know about local signals
23:25:14 <AnMaster> ais523, how exactly do vars and signals differ
23:25:18 <Sgeo> Since when is 1GB small? I remember when I was younger, learning about Gigabytes and thinking that that's a LOT
23:25:37 <uorygl> You can also get a plain old regular terabyte hard drive for $100. :P
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23:27:13 <uorygl> That's stupid. You can buy an encrypted 4 TB hard drive for about $1,500.
23:27:24 <Sgeo> How difficult would it to put a 1TB drive in a laptop?
23:27:39 <uorygl> Whereas doing the same with software would be just as effective and way cheaper.
23:28:56 <uorygl> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822158093
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23:29:23 <AnMaster> uorygl, but where do you enter passphrase?
23:29:34 <uorygl> What's the leading symmetric key cipher? Twofish?
23:30:20 <AnMaster> uorygl, don't know. AES isn't too bad
23:30:37 <uorygl> I think symmetric key ciphers are pretty easy to implement in hardware. I don't know, though.
23:31:10 <uorygl> Of course, using an ordinary processor instead of a cryptoprocessor is not necessarily a good idea.
23:32:13 <AnMaster> uorygl, a crypto cpu does add some interesting aspects to the design...
23:32:32 <AnMaster> you couldn't make it async since that would mean widely varying power usage
23:32:45 <AnMaster> still, widely varying for sync probably
23:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> If someone can analyse your CPU's power usage, you're doing something wrong in the first place.
23:37:16 <ais523> Sgeo: side-channel attacks are where you attack the implementation of an algo rather than the algo itself
23:37:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, on the other hand you don't want to use more power than required at any point, especially in a laptop
23:37:29 <ais523> like shining a really bright light into a quantum crypto link to try to make it leak extra photons
23:38:02 <ais523> on some versions of it, yes
23:38:12 <ais523> the point is it has nothing to do with the algo at all, it's something they didn't think of
23:38:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but how would it work?
23:38:40 <AnMaster> shouldn't it just drown out the single photon?
23:38:49 <ais523> well, the things use filters to produce photons in the first place, you're trying to guess their settings
23:38:55 <ais523> so instead of one photon, you get, say, 20 all the same
23:39:02 <ais523> then you can measure 19 of them and let the other one go through the link
23:39:09 <ais523> and have a pretty good idea what polarisation that 19 had
23:39:21 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to modify the sender equipment then
23:39:33 <ais523> to stop that happening?
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23:39:53 <AnMaster> ais523, to be able to send more than one such photon?
23:39:56 <ais523> except you don't, you cut the cable and aim a blast of light down it back at the sender
23:40:04 <ais523> and some of the photons bounce off the sender and come back
23:40:11 <ais523> going through the filter in the process
23:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you prevent it?
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23:40:45 <ais523> I have no idea, I'm not a quantum cryptographer
23:40:54 <ais523> one obvious method is to detect the blast and guess you've been tampered with
23:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, but would that be viable? Quantum + detecting/measuring tends to non-weird results ;P
23:41:41 <ais523> that's not the only side-channel attack, of course
23:41:53 <ais523> AnMaster: you aren't detecting anything you send at all
23:41:55 <ais523> just things you receive
23:42:04 <ais523> you can therefore use conventional means to help secure the quantum system
23:42:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what are the other side channel attacks apart from compromising the sending/receiving computer(s)
23:43:38 <ais523> there's also the possibility of MitMing the entire communication
23:43:56 <ais523> as in, setting up a separate quantum link to each of the participating people
23:44:08 <ais523> but there are known ways to solve that sort of problem (again, I don't know what they are)
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23:45:28 <uorygl> Calculate the amount of time taken for light to go from point A to point B. If it takes longer, there's tampering. :P
23:45:43 <uorygl> Of course, it requires your connection to be a straight line!
23:45:57 <ais523> strangely, at the conference I was at recently, there was an entire paper about just that method of securing communication
23:46:01 <AnMaster> uorygl, or not, you can calculate for a bent path, no?
23:46:44 <uorygl> Only if the attacker can't unbend the path.
23:47:01 <AnMaster> uorygl, well okay, but I was thinking "transatlantic cable" kind of thing
23:47:13 <AnMaster> he can shorten the path as needed ;P
23:47:19 <uorygl> I don't think wormholes are something we need to worry about for the time being. :P
23:49:10 <AnMaster> uorygl, also time machine to send the bits back in time
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00:26:37 <uorygl> `translate suden kesy jalostettu muoto
00:26:39 <HackEgo> processed form of the domesticated wolf
00:26:59 <uorygl> That's actually a much better translation than what I got last time.
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00:27:55 <uorygl> So, "suden" is the genitive of "susi"? Or is it the accusative?
00:28:18 <uorygl> If "kesy" and "suden" have to match case, then I guess it has to be the accusative.
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00:29:21 <uorygl> "Muoto" is just the accusative, of course. How does "jalostettu" come about? What's that word made of?
00:32:41 <Sgeo> <3 Humble Indie Bundle
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00:45:21 <augur> uorygl: how's HackEgo doing the translating there?
00:46:37 <uorygl> Using Google Translate.
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02:03:00 <Gregor-L_> soupdragon: THAT IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO MAKE SOUP
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02:12:36 <uorygl> Gregor-L_: there are a lot of events after which you could say that.
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02:13:23 <uorygl> Hey, your L got flipped about a 45-degree line and scaled up by a factor of sqrt(2). How did you do that?
02:13:35 <pikhq> Gregor-L_: Well, you see, first you stick the dragon in the soup. Then, you put stuff in it. Then, you take out the dragon.
02:13:49 <pikhq> uorygl: UNDERSCORE
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02:14:29 <pikhq> alise is all the voices in your head.
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02:17:58 <maedhros777> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial
02:18:53 <maedhros777> Pardon all the zeroes, I wrote a program to generate trinomials from zeroes and it's not very good yet
02:21:56 <maedhros777> I tried putting it into Wolfram Alpha to get the final result and it didn't have enough space for all the numbers in the search box :)
02:22:48 <maedhros777> I'm not sure how I'm going to trim down these coefficients
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02:23:26 <maedhros777> Because the final coefficients probably overflow all data types in C.
02:23:58 <maedhros777> How will I get the final polynomial of the hello world, though?
02:24:26 <maedhros777> Actually, more like a month, or several years =D
02:24:59 <pikhq> ... Yes, this is why computers exist.
02:25:47 <pikhq> HORRORS UPON HORRORS AWAIT YOU
02:26:07 <pikhq> Language isn't terrible.
02:26:24 <pikhq> The runtime is such a massive bitch to get running.
02:26:28 <maedhros777> I've heard it doesn't have much support, though
02:26:48 <pikhq> It does have two standard libraries, though.
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02:28:13 <pikhq> The secret is to not fork the language.
02:29:50 <zzo38> The way I like is a variations of C like this:
02:30:23 <zzo38> x=strlen(y); --> y strlen;x!
02:30:43 <zzo38> And ; is function call operator
02:31:13 <zzo38> What is "tHE WIZARD"?
02:31:24 <soupdragon> zzo38 hypothetical langage design wizard
02:31:33 <soupdragon> it's a parody of trendy things like ruby and python and such
02:31:41 <soupdragon> basically you get a bunch of check boxes and radio buttons
02:31:50 <soupdragon> and you choose things like syntax, evaluation order, .. etc
02:31:55 <maedhros777> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/84556/whats-your-favorite-programmer-cartoon
02:31:56 <soupdragon> and it prints out an interpreter for the language
02:32:30 <maedhros777> I like the one with the kid's name being a MySQL injection
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02:33:02 <zzo38> int main(int argc,char**argv){puts("Hello, world!\n");} --> :main(int'argc' char**'argv'--int){"Hello, world!\n"puts;0}
02:33:06 <maedhros777> Notice that the top one doesn't even print newlines :)
02:33:34 <zzo38> Do you have any URL or examples of wizard?
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02:35:15 <uorygl> soupdragon: I want to make that!
02:35:33 <zzo38> I invented another problem on anarchy golf
02:35:37 <uorygl> Or, at least, to have that.
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02:36:17 <soupdragon> zzo38 - I had written a wiki page about it, but I deleted my wiki
02:36:32 <zzo38> maedhros777: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Count+asterisks+
02:36:43 <soupdragon> if anyone likes this idea I would love improvements
02:36:59 <soupdragon> I tried to explain it to ehird but he just ignored me
02:37:22 <zzo38> soupdragon: Without seeing it how can I send improvement?
02:37:35 <soupdragon> zzo38 well the idea is all that exists
02:38:09 <zzo38> maedhros777: The anarchy golf is a site for codegolf, try to write a short program for the given input/output, there is many program language choices
02:38:47 <maedhros777> Oh, so the challenge is to write a program that outputs the number of asterisks?
02:38:50 <zzo38> I didn't invent that site, but I did post some of the problems
02:39:34 <zzo38> maedhros777: Yes, that's it. However, any program that complies with the example input/output is OK, even if it doesn't count the number of asterisks. (If your program is cheating, you can write "(cheat)" after your name)
02:39:45 <zzo38> The ranking is, 10000 for the shortest program
02:39:54 <zzo38> I mean, that's how the "score" is
02:40:01 <zzo38> The "rank" column is 1 for the shortest program
02:40:24 <zzo38> The "size" tells how many bytes in the program
02:40:32 <maedhros777> So people compete for shortest program, lowest time, etc?
02:40:47 <zzo38> The "statistics" column is binary/alnum/symbol
02:41:04 <zzo38> The time is mostly not used. You compete for the shortest program.
02:41:12 <zzo38> The time is available just in case you are interested
02:41:37 <zzo38> You can try it. Push "use form" and then you can select the program langage you want, and enter your name in "Your name" field.
02:42:16 <zzo38> If it is a binary file you can just upload the file
02:42:27 <maedhros777> How can it be known if a program would work or not?
02:42:50 <zzo38> The site does have its own compilers on the execution server
02:42:56 <zzo38> So it will tell you if it is success or not
02:43:08 <Gregor-L> (This should all be in a Hackiki :P )
02:43:21 <maedhros777> Has anyone ever made the smallest program for a problem in brainfuck?
02:44:09 <soupdragon> once I generated brainfuck programs by size and searched for ones that printed text
02:44:12 <maedhros777> In the statistics, is size measured in bytes?
02:44:17 <soupdragon> but I didn't actually find any interesting text....
02:44:30 <zzo38> You can also just make the shortest program in each individual category, and if you post for more than one program language you can have multiple scores
02:44:36 <zzo38> Yes, it is measured in bytes
02:44:53 <maedhros777> So someone made a solution in Flogscript with 2 bytes??!!!
02:44:57 <zzo38> Some of the formats are binary formats.
02:45:39 <zzo38> It still might be a cheat.
02:45:52 <zzo38> Sometimes the authors did not put "(cheat)" after their name
02:45:58 <zzo38> You can view the programs at post-mortem time.
02:46:03 <zzo38> 13day(s) and 23:27:55 before deadline (05/29 10:03:09 JST), all source codes will be revealed after the deadline
02:46:14 <zzo38> So that means, in 2 weeks you will be able to view the programs.
02:46:35 <zzo38> (You can still post programs after the deadline, but the date will be red in that case)
02:47:49 <zzo38> Even for ones that are cheats, you can try to figure out how to cheat in that problem! But you can do both cheat and genuine solution. I like to post both cheating and genuine solutions to problems, some other people also like to do so
02:48:07 <maedhros777> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Palindromic+prime
02:49:24 <zzo38> See the example output, that's how many are needed
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02:51:07 <maedhros777> I'm looking at some finished ones, and the smallest code is ugly :)
02:51:18 <maedhros777> But I guess that's necessary to make a small program
02:52:26 <zzo38> Also, a few other hints: "exec is denied" does not apply to shell scripts. The source file name is always "test." and the extension. In interpreted languages, usually the source file will be the only file in the current directory.
02:53:20 <maedhros777> I think I'm going to die: main() without return type or arguments :) http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?char+pyramid/nn_1271263335&cpp
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02:53:46 <coppro> maedhros777: no arguments is fine... no type is not
02:54:21 <zzo38> C does not actually require the type, the type is assumed "int"
02:54:27 <zzo38> (If you use the correct compiler parameters)
02:55:50 <Gregor-L> public static void main(String[] args)
02:55:57 <maedhros777> For the asterisk problem, how is the input generated? i.e. is it with newlines?
02:56:12 <maedhros777> Oh yeah, Java doesn't even return an int :)
02:56:26 <zzo38> What do you mean, how is the input generated?
02:56:34 <gm|lap> i think there's a System.exit or something
02:56:37 <zzo38> Each input is run through the program a separate time.
02:56:50 <zzo38> There are newlines if that is how it is shown
02:57:09 <zzo38> So at the end of each line there will be a newline character.
02:58:47 <zzo38> Yes, it will be EOF when the end is reached
03:00:08 <zzo38> These are also my problems: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Half+Sierpinski http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Half+Sierpinski
03:00:15 <zzo38> Although I like the other problems too
03:00:50 <maedhros777> What do you think is the function with the least character that reads from standard input?
03:01:15 <zzo38> Probably. I don't know for sure but I think so
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03:03:08 <zzo38> I won "PrinterOriented Banner" problem even though I did not create that problem
03:04:14 <Gregor-L> So I improved JSMIPS' speed today.
03:04:30 <gm|lap> OHHHH that's what vi is for
03:04:56 <zzo38> What do you mean, what's wat vi is for?
03:06:03 <zzo38> Yes, but I still don't understand your comment
03:06:14 <zzo38> Are you refering to any specific problem?
03:06:45 <gm|lap> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Interpret+Perl+Code <-- the bash ones are kinda obvious
03:06:56 <zzo38> Yes, it certainly is
03:07:00 <gm|lap> same deal with zsh + fish
03:07:09 <zzo38> Yes, is same zsh and fish even
03:07:16 <gm|lap> not a z80 entry in sight :/
03:07:50 <zzo38> Write one if you want to
03:10:30 <zzo38> Sometimes I write a bit strange solution for "Network mask v2" http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Network+mask+v2/zzo38%28file%2Cpostmortem%29_1273244351&zsh
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03:11:44 <zzo38> How many problems have you gotten best score?
03:12:48 <zzo38> I think they need to add a input-fix mode (I have written the patch already)
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03:21:43 <zzo38> The "Count asterisks" is difficult to make with dc, because if the input difficult, but I still managed to do it. (But this program does not actually count all of the asterisks)
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05:23:29 <zzo38> I didn't explode yet
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05:31:23 <zzo38> I have not yet exploded.
05:32:36 * pikhq wants his damned HTTP access back
05:33:27 <zzo38> Are you out of HTTP access?
05:34:03 <zzo38> But why? What happened? What is going wrong?
05:34:27 <pikhq> I can access IRC and Gopher.
05:34:33 <pikhq> Why? Because my ISP sucks.
05:35:14 <pikhq> Oh, look. It's back. It was out for a few hours, but it's back.
05:35:26 <pikhq> Just like last night.
05:35:36 <pikhq> Fucking hell I hate this.
05:38:43 <zzo38> Does FTP and SMTP and POP3 work?
05:38:52 <pikhq> No, no, and no, respectively.
05:38:54 <zzo38> And why does HTTP stop working even though IRC and Gopher continues to work?
05:39:06 <pikhq> Because fuck you, we have a monopoly.
05:39:35 <pikhq> Near as we could conclude last night, I was having an 88% packet loss rate, and IRC was only barely able to work during that.
05:40:08 <zzo38> At least a lot of my text files are accessible using Gopher protocol!
05:45:34 <zzo38> When my internet stops, *all* protocols stop working.
05:53:29 <pikhq> It's almost like they go "What, you were expecting service? Sorry, we're just going to take your money. Much more profitable."
05:58:06 <pikhq> I'd have freaking better Internet access if I went to the Northern Territories of Canada.
05:58:22 <pikhq> THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ROADS
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06:20:35 <zzo38> I noticed the GNU FDL contains something which seems to be in there specifically so that when Wikipedia relicensed all of their files, it would not be a violation of this license.
06:21:59 <pikhq> Yes, that clause was put in at the behest of the Wikimedia Foundation.
06:22:15 <pikhq> As, frankly, the FDL was a terrible choice of license for Wikipedia.
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06:23:52 <ais523> pikhq: well, at the time, there weren't many licenses around
06:24:05 <ais523> I think they picked FDL because it existed, which was a strong benefit over many of the other licenses people have suggested
06:24:14 <ais523> although it's pretty much its only advantage
06:24:29 <ais523> GFDL is good for some things; I used it for the C-INTERCAL manual
06:24:37 <ais523> it's pretty much designed for book-style manuals
06:24:56 <pikhq> It's decent for a manual.
06:25:06 <pikhq> It's *workable* for books.
06:25:25 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure it's *possible* to follow it for a wiki.
06:27:20 <ais523> it is, but Wikipedia didn't
06:30:58 <zzo38> Do you like command-line version of DigitalMZX Vault?
06:31:00 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/bB8e9wNY
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06:34:25 <zzo38> Is Adrian^L at 2600?
06:34:46 <zzo38> Actually, phalse.2600.COM and 2600.com resolve to the same IP address
06:35:13 <zzo38> Perhaps you faked it? Or is it proper?
06:38:33 <zzo38> The reverse DNS resolves to phalse.2600.COM however, it seems
06:53:12 <zzo38> I found a list of secret services codes
06:53:18 <zzo38> But I won't tell you right now
06:53:40 <oerjan> WELL THEY'RE SECRET, DUH
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07:07:55 <zzo38> Can you become a threat to society by taking pictures of Secret Service agents in your own office?
07:09:47 <zzo38> I do not see Obama on the list of secret codenames.
07:09:56 <zzo38> Perhaps because it is secret!
07:10:06 <ais523> the sort of people who think of doing that are possibly threats to society for other reasons
07:11:29 <zzo38> I don't think that is necessarily the case at all.
07:11:45 <oerjan> VERY GOOD ANSWER, CITIZEN AIS523
07:11:52 <zzo38> Even then, you aren't necessarily deliberately taking pictures of Secret Service agents. It could be automatic due to security cameras and so on.
07:12:07 * oerjan ducks beneath the rock again
07:12:15 <ais523> is it comfortable down there?
07:12:19 <zzo38> The Secret Service might even be a threat to society too, there are reports about such things
07:12:40 <oerjan> well it's a bit cramped, but it does have internet access
07:13:43 <oerjan> THERE ARE NO SUCH REPORTS. ANYONE BELIEVING IN SUCH REPORTS IS A DANGER TO SOCIETY.
07:15:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Unlike me.
07:23:46 <zzo38> I am not finished writing a solitaire card program yet. But it is nearly completed.
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07:28:21 <oerjan> legalizing 42 drugs, that's the ticket
07:29:48 <oerjan> WHICHEVER ARE GOOD FOR SOCIETY
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11:00:05 <AnMaster> wait you didn't know VHDL did you? Only verilog
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12:22:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how large does the stack usually become in befunge93?
12:22:22 <AnMaster> I mean, would 2047 entries be enough for all "common" programs?
12:22:33 * AnMaster is thinking about befunge93 in VHDL
12:23:02 <AnMaster> dynamic size would be an extreme PITA
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12:44:22 <AnMaster> alise, two possible summer projects that I'm considering: befunge93 in VHDL, befunge93 on Lego Mindstorms
12:44:42 <alise> mindstorms is a fairly regular robotic platform from what i gather. and you can use C
12:44:48 <AnMaster> alise, the lego would be fun too, output would be a flashing lego led
12:44:48 <alise> each robot was a cell in fungespace
12:44:54 <alise> and they physically walked around
12:45:00 <alise> if that is the case, that * G_64
12:45:09 <alise> AnMaster: eh, 2-celled unefunge
12:45:46 <AnMaster> alise, but I was thinking of using a flashing LED to output the bits of console output
12:45:55 <alise> I'd go for VHDL, because it's so fucking alien
12:45:59 <alise> and it'd be the FASTEST. BEFUNGE-93. EVAR
12:46:38 <AnMaster> alise, except I don't own an FPGA to test it on, so it would be simulation only (but with the aim to make most synthesiable (sp?) in theory)
12:46:42 <alise> you could do sound with vhdl <3
12:46:45 <AnMaster> the exception would be file loading and console IO
12:46:52 <AnMaster> alise, I could do sound on RCX
12:47:08 <AnMaster> it has a built in speaker, but I think it is limited to some set of 8 or whatever different beeps
12:47:25 <AnMaster> alise, not sure about brickOS... but that needs a gcc 2.95.x cross compiler
12:47:32 <AnMaster> which I'm not sure I can even get working nowdays
12:48:20 <alise> http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsammy/4605760111/sizes/o/in/pool-16135094@N00/ ;; good lord, this is /not/ how recipies should look!
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12:51:58 <alise> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/dreamanatomy/images/1200%20dpi/IV-A-01.jpg
12:52:15 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/Xf057.jpg ;; translation
12:56:05 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsammy/4605760111/sizes/o/in/pool-16135094@N00/ ;; good lord, this is /not/ how recipies should look! <-- wonderful idea
12:56:19 <alise> Horrible idea; just horrible.
12:56:50 <AnMaster> alise, it makes gooking into engineering, easy to follow
12:56:50 <alise> Recipes are perfectly fine; obfuscating their clear prose with multi-directional diagrams that leave no obvious order in which cooking should be done and leave out vital details is ridiculous.
12:57:02 <alise> Recipes /are/ easy to follow.
12:57:07 <alise> And imagine that diagram for a complicated recipe.
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12:57:11 <AnMaster> alise, they need to be bullet lists then
12:57:16 <alise> It would start looking more like fungot's graph.
12:57:17 <fungot> alise: the diggers must have been enough to fnord and remote farmers who at some period of life appeared to have two sharers of his mysteries; a fnord portuguese fnord from the house and the ancient pain.
12:57:19 <AnMaster> alise, plus this allows concurrent cooking
12:57:23 <alise> English is scalable.
12:57:51 <AnMaster> alise, plus → is increasing time
12:57:59 <AnMaster> and some tasks are concurrent there
12:58:25 <AnMaster> I find those incredibly easy to follow
12:58:28 <alise> You sing its praises but have you actually taken it on yourself to think of - perhaps even read - the corresponding recipe before deciding that the flowchart is superior?
12:58:41 <alise> And now consider a more complicated diagram, and its corresponding recipe. Iterate until you're convinced.
12:59:14 <alise> Um, get out your nearest recipe book.
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12:59:45 <AnMaster> alise, but there may be different variants of the same recipe?
12:59:48 <alise> Admittedly amateur-written recipes might not be of such good quality, and professional ones may have copyright issues, but I'm sure you'll find something.
12:59:50 <alise> AnMaster: Well, yes.
12:59:53 <alise> Doesn't really matter.
13:00:57 <AnMaster> okay the flow chart isn't perfect, for example it says "mix" but with what? an electric mixer? a wooden ladle?
13:01:11 <AnMaster> but the idea isn't fundamentally flawed though
13:01:25 <alise> Now imagine extending that "mix" to have the full information.
13:01:35 <alise> Quite horizontally extended, you might say.
13:01:36 <AnMaster> footnotes? definitions chapter?
13:01:41 <alise> By which I mean "I hope you like scrolling in two dimensions."
13:01:47 <alise> And good luck /printing/ this.
13:01:52 <alise> Or will you put a computer right next to all your foodery?
13:02:02 <alise> AnMaster: So now it's obfuscated English text, cross-referenced.
13:02:07 <alise> I'll take simple words.
13:02:07 <AnMaster> alise, yes, on the freezer door :P
13:02:20 <alise> AnMaster: And jog over to your freezer whenever you complete a step?
13:02:26 <AnMaster> alise, okay but simply making the arrows wider to allow 2 lines of text would work
13:02:29 <alise> Most people keep cookbooks right next to their working surface.
13:02:40 <alise> AnMaster: Do that, then replace the arrows with "then". What's lost?
13:02:50 <AnMaster> alise, well okay, computers everywhere. I'm still waiting for the holographic terminals. Oh and the flying cars...
13:03:00 <alise> And the Singularity...
13:03:50 <alise> Then it won't matter since we won't have to cook. :P
13:04:22 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I think a directed graph would be better. Could also be nicely rendered with graphviz
13:04:27 <alise> Unless you want to. But then you'll just use your amazing memory to know the entire recipe.
13:05:15 <AnMaster> alise, the problems with current recipes is that it is hard to keep your location in them, maybe some sort of marker placed on top of the text would help
13:05:23 <AnMaster> since you need to check back several times during cooking
13:06:15 <AnMaster> also it should be strictly chronological order. It is no good to find that you should have done something else in another beaker 10 minutes before, and during that done the thing described first
13:06:41 <alise> Of course, that is simply a badly-written recipe.
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13:06:57 <alise> Most words are badly written.
13:06:59 <AnMaster> alise, not written for engineers at least
13:07:07 <alise> What makes you think flowcharts won't be badly made too?
13:07:17 <alise> http://www.cookingforengineers.com/? I've never used it, mind.
13:08:07 <alise> Hah! I thought someone else had invented ginger jam before me, but it is savoury!
13:08:16 <AnMaster> doesn't seem too different from normal
13:08:17 <alise> No, I am the first to produce a substance that will turn a Rich Tea into a Ginger Nut!
13:08:37 <alise> AnMaster: It's certainly more precise.
13:08:47 <alise> Yes, it seems people use the term to mean something you'd put on meat.
13:08:55 <alise> But nothing! Nothing! That will turn a Rich Tea into a Ginger Nut!
13:08:56 <AnMaster> alise, at least no "add salt until it tates good"
13:08:59 <alise> I am the sole innovator in this area!
13:09:16 <AnMaster> alise, no I seem ginger jam on toast
13:09:16 <alise> AnMaster: "I don't like putting hot items into my refrigerator, so I like to use an aluminum half sheet pan as a heat sink."
13:09:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Die.
13:09:29 <AnMaster> don't like ginger at all in fact
13:09:30 <alise> It is quite spicy. But it was nice on biscuits.
13:09:36 <alise> It was sweet and all.
13:09:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I quite like them dunked. They're no more bland than Digestives.
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13:10:16 <alise> Recipe for ginger jam - so imprecise that AnMaster will cry -:
13:10:33 <AnMaster> alise, however, what about stuff like "fry the bacon", how do you know when to stop? In most recipes it doesn't seem to give an exact time
13:10:36 <alise> Put a little bit of ground ginger into a mixing bowl. Add water until it is not opaque; a bit more than 50% opaque.
13:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I beg to differ. They have so little structure that they disintegrate when you hold them in the steam.
13:10:46 <alise> Add about two-to-three slightly-more-than-teaspoons of sugar.
13:10:47 <AnMaster> you need some good measurement for that stuff
13:10:55 <alise> Put in a pan. Gas Mark 5 or so.
13:10:58 <alise> here comes the imprecise bit
13:11:08 <alise> Every now and then, add about 1/3 of a tablespoon of cornflour.
13:11:12 <alise> And some sugar to offset its taste.
13:11:13 <AnMaster> alise, what is gas mark 5 on an electric stove?
13:11:23 <alise> Wait until the sugar explodes^Wcaramelises.
13:11:28 <alise> Leave for a minute.
13:11:31 <alise> Tada, a little bit of ginger jam!
13:11:39 <AnMaster> we don't have gas stoves in Sweden. Well we probably do but extremely rare
13:11:40 <alise> Scale up to make something that'll actually cover two slices of toast... IF YOU DARE.
13:11:45 <alise> If it starts boiling you've done something wrong.
13:11:56 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah I don't know actually, I did this at the unit out of extreme boredom
13:12:02 <alise> Don't have a gas stove here I don't think
13:12:14 <alise> Anyway, it produces something quite nice. Very sweet obviously.
13:12:27 <alise> But I swear, spread it on a Rich Tea and it tastes like a Ginger Nut. Or your money back.
13:12:29 <AnMaster> probably in stuff like mobile units like at campings
13:12:45 <alise> AnMaster: Electric stoves tend to be so, so slow to heat up!
13:12:47 <AnMaster> smaller than mobile home units towed by a normal car
13:13:06 <AnMaster> <alise> Every now and then, add about 1/3 of a tablespoon of cornflour. <-- how often
13:13:12 <alise> Every now and then.
13:13:22 <alise> Basically when you notice "no this is very runny".
13:13:32 <AnMaster> alise, how do we define "very runny"?
13:13:32 <alise> It shouldn't be thick though. The huge explosion of the sugar makes it thick.
13:13:40 <alise> AnMaster: Like it's only slightly thicker than pure water.
13:13:57 <AnMaster> alise, see why I have problems with recipes?
13:14:08 <alise> Well, I would have written it down but this was the first time I'd done it.
13:14:16 <alise> So it was basically, you know, "oh fuck it let's add some more".
13:14:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because.
13:14:33 <AnMaster> alise, also how much sugar is required to offset the taste?
13:14:49 <alise> AnMaster: About half a slightly-bigger-than-teaspoon (a slightly-bigger-than-teaspoon is one of those plastic spoon things.)
13:14:51 <AnMaster> alise, plus this could be represented in a flow chart with a loop :D
13:15:00 <AnMaster> with entry/exit condition of course
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13:15:29 <alise> Incidentally, there needs to be a nice name for the sequence (x+1)/x for integral (natural?) x.
13:15:38 <alise> Even if it is just (1/x) + 1.
13:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I still think that a name is needed for the various sets of complex numbers.
13:16:10 <AnMaster> alise, I think we should list it in moles. Just imagine: ... mol sugar (chemical formula goes here)
13:16:30 <alise> Complex numbers are weird, man.
13:16:48 <AnMaster> alise, not really. Not compared to quaternions
13:17:17 <alise> The only thing weirder is infinitely complex numbers. Which I just defined to be complex numbers, extended with recursion: you have (a + b ii) where ii^2 = -1 and a and b are infinitely complex numbers.
13:17:30 <alise> YOUR MIND WILL BLOW
13:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> But if you have a complex of the form a+bi, if a and b are complex then it's still complex.
13:18:20 <alise> ii is a new unit, not i*i.
13:18:25 <alise> I can't use i because i \in C.
13:18:28 <alise> So it's ii \in IC.
13:18:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, true.
13:18:51 <alise> Except it's in IC, not C.
13:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> There is no functional difference as far as I can see.
13:19:14 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, j is used by engineers for i, so that would be very confusing
13:19:27 <alise> AnMaster: And quaternions use i,j,k.
13:19:32 <alise> Although nobody uses quaternions.
13:19:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed.
13:19:45 <alise> That's unambiguous!
13:20:11 <alise> [["Brobdingnagian" appears in the Oxford English Dictionary as a synonym for "very large" or "gigantic".]]
13:20:15 <AnMaster> alise, math hates multi-letter abbrevs
13:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIK quaternions are used in some 3D modelling stuff.
13:20:29 <alise> You contradict thine own self!
13:20:35 <AnMaster> alise, why can't I shorten it? ;P
13:20:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's computers. :P
13:21:21 <alise> cs is just a branch of mathematics
13:22:34 <AnMaster> alise, also it is bordering on engineering at most unis
13:22:39 <alise> Actually I don't dislike CS. :-)
13:22:45 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, that is the real problem.
13:23:04 <alise> Computer science is definitely mathematics, but engineering of any sort is not.
13:23:19 <AnMaster> alise, engineering is like applied mathematics
13:23:27 <AnMaster> except that refers to something else iirc
13:23:30 <alise> They use mathematics though.
13:23:38 <AnMaster> alise, yeah applying it to problems.
13:23:50 <alise> Yeah. But then so does, say, accounting.
13:23:55 <AnMaster> but yeah the phrase "applied mathematics" is already in use iirc
13:24:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, except pure math?
13:24:44 <alise> I have a sort of urge to play with set theory.
13:25:29 <alise> It's perfectly natural!
13:27:18 <AnMaster> yes quite. When kept at reasonable levels it is nothing to worry about. But you should watch out so you don't get addicted. Could result in your downfall. Just imagine, a setoholic...
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13:27:52 <alise> Even worse, I have an urge to write an English-language translation of the axioms!
13:28:02 <alise> To indoctrinate poor, innocent mathematical children into the false religion!
13:28:09 <AnMaster> okay now you are into dangerous stuff
13:28:39 <AnMaster> alise, hm I wonder how VHDL integer type handles underflow/overflow
13:28:59 <AnMaster> it would be neat with an integer with the range 0-79
13:29:09 <AnMaster> but yeah not sure about overflow
13:29:35 <alise> I love Tarski's axiom so much
13:29:37 <alise> [[For every set x, there exists a set y whose members include:
13:29:37 <alise> * every subset of every member of y;
13:29:37 <alise> * the power set of every member of y;
13:29:38 <alise> * every subset of y of cardinality less than that of y.]]
13:29:51 <alise> it implies the axioms of infinity, choice, power set, and the existence of inaccessible cardinals
13:30:02 <alise> ∃y [x ∈ y ∧ ∀z ∈ y [∀w (w ⊆ z → w ∈ y) ∧ ∃w ∈ y ∀v (v ⊆ z → v ∈ w)] ∧ ∀z [z ⊆ y → (z ≈ y ∨ z ∈ y)]]
13:30:39 <alise> I dunno, it's the same as ()
13:30:44 <alise> I guess to make it easier to read
13:31:05 <alise> Oh; that's my quote marks.
13:32:13 <impomatic> Does anyone know the name for the symbol like an 'O' but tiny and on the baseline.
13:32:58 <alise> impomatic: Where is it used?
13:32:58 <AnMaster> or subscripted O with negative vertical space (ugh!)
13:33:29 <AnMaster> impomatic, isn't that just a subscripted 0?
13:33:34 <impomatic> But I can't find a HTML or Unicode entity for it
13:33:48 <alise> It's simply subscripted zero.
13:34:03 <alise> There is also Aleph-one, etc.
13:34:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, unicode has a subscripted 0 letter iirc
13:34:11 <alise> impomatic: However, using the Unicode subscripts is bad style.
13:34:14 <alise> Use <sub>0</sub> instead.
13:34:18 <alise> (They are only there for legacy reasons.)
13:34:22 <AnMaster> alise, why is the unicode subscript bad style?
13:34:42 <alise> AnMaster: only in Unicode for compatibility reasons; not every character can be subscripted, just an arbitrary, small subset; Unicode is a character set, not a typesetting system
13:34:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah they didn't include klingon :(
13:34:57 <alise> they are officially deprecated
13:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I have never watched any Star Trek, with the exception of the 2008 movie.
13:36:19 <alise> Star Trek is quite entertaining. Just fluff, though, of course.
13:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Spock kills Kirk with Rosebud and then it turns out that they're both Tyler Durden!
13:36:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The 2008 movie?
13:36:45 <alise> Do you mean the 2009 one?
13:37:03 <alise> That one is even more fluffy. :-)
13:37:51 <alise> "This idea was later used to create the 2009 film, SProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 r Trek." --Wikipedia
13:38:22 <alise> [[This idea was later used to create the 2009 film, [[Star Trek (film)|SProxy-Connection: keep-alive
13:38:22 <alise> Cache-Control: max-age=0
13:38:31 <alise> [[Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country]]
13:38:44 <alise> Best Trek movie title ever
13:39:31 <alise> Or a filter issue.
13:39:50 <alise> Never seen before...
13:39:58 <alise> DUN DADANDANDAU DNUUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN
13:40:07 <alise> SProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 r Trek.
13:40:34 <AnMaster> alise, To boldly go where no TCP packet has gone before!
13:40:57 <alise> "WHAT?! They're not caching our pages!"
13:41:03 <alise> "Someone... has... infiltrated... our... server."
13:41:06 <alise> "IT RUNS OUR SHIP!"
13:41:11 <alise> SIRENS SIRENS SIRENS SIRENS
13:41:26 <alise> "I'll use Mac OS X to hack our own Ruby on Rails admin interface!"
13:41:32 <AnMaster> alise, and including realistic reversing of polarity!
13:41:35 <alise> "THE PASSWORD IS 'ROSEBUD'!!!!!"
13:41:47 <AnMaster> alise, reversing polarity of the DC circuit it infected!
13:41:58 <AnMaster> the diodes will block it, shut it down
13:42:01 <alise> Kane... hacked... the Enterprise!
13:42:37 <alise> Spock... is a HUMAN
13:42:40 <alise> From an ALTERNATE REALITY!
13:42:44 <alise> HE HOLDS THE KEY TO THE CACHING
13:42:49 <alise> He must sacrifice himself...
13:43:12 <alise> The ship's drive is so powerful that if it isn't cached, the sheer energy will OBLITERATE THE UNIVERSE!
13:43:16 <alise> But DON'T TELL HEALTH AND SAFETY!
13:43:32 <AnMaster> alise, I liked my idea of realistic reversing of polarity
13:43:40 <AnMaster> presumably they have installed easy switches for it by now
13:43:49 <alise> The ship is based on solving Diophantine equations.
13:44:07 <alise> This is never elaborated upon.
13:44:18 <alise> It is, however, used in the climax to save the universe.
13:44:33 <AnMaster> okay that sounds like treknobable gone bad
13:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Can we use the inevitable breakdown of causality due to FTL travel as a plot point?
13:44:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, been done iirc?
13:45:17 <alise> AnMaster: They used the proof of Poincare's conjecture to prove that the circles of the ship MUST evaporate!!!!
13:45:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes we can.
13:45:36 <alise> It turns out that you can do infinitely long tasks in finite time if you don't care about causality.
13:45:41 <alise> The computation reaches BEYOND the end of the universe.
13:45:48 <alise> This is how it solves Diophantine equations.
13:46:32 <AnMaster> alise, which one was Poincare's conjecture?
13:46:42 <alise> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_conjecture
13:46:45 <alise> It is a theorem, at least!
13:47:00 <alise> It's about circles tightening. And spheres.
13:47:09 <alise> The second-last sphere in the image looks like the Death Star.
13:47:13 <alise> So clearly this is a Trek/Wars crossover.
13:47:22 <alise> Also clearly the redesigned Enterprise is circular.
13:47:24 <alise> And gets shrinked.
13:47:27 <alise> On the Death Star.
13:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> We must refashion it into a torus before we are crushed!
13:48:24 <alise> I wonder if anyone has developed a theory of the reals and complexes enough in a proof assistant to define the analytically continued zeta function.
13:48:26 <AnMaster> alise, no the circle is slightly to small for the death-star
13:48:47 <alise> That requires convergent infinite sums and analytic continuation; sounds painful
13:49:16 <alise> AnMaster: That's just a continuity error
13:51:09 <alise> Dammit, I have a horrible, horrible need to give a value to the harmonic series.
13:51:37 <AnMaster> alise, of what? the death star's resonance frequency?
13:51:58 <AnMaster> alise, I preferred my interpretation :P
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13:52:29 <AnMaster> we could calculate it from the movies. Isn't it a green laser?
13:52:33 <alise> We already have values for {sum(n=1, inf) 1}, {sum(n=1, inf) n} and indeed all forms of {sum(n=1, inf) s^n} apart from n=-1.
13:53:09 <AnMaster> by measuring exact hue on that laser it should be possible to calculate what type of laser was used
13:53:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm right, unless there is a lot of dust in space for it to reflect from
13:54:00 <AnMaster> so some ionised plasma weapon perhaps?
13:54:23 <AnMaster> I have no idea at all about how to calculate anything on that
13:54:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it will also be necessary to explain the behaviour of the beams when they intersect.
13:54:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember that
13:54:53 <impomatic> Does this Aleph-null look okay? See bottom of page, reference 1 - http://corewar.co.uk/darwin
13:55:30 <AnMaster> impomatic, the usual name I heard for it is aleph-zero
13:55:43 <alise> That's exactly how you should write it. :)
13:55:52 <fizzie> Officially it's called the "superlaser", but of course there's no requirement that "superlaser" need be an instance of laser.
13:56:07 <alise> impomatic: In TeX it's written \aleph_0.
13:56:13 <AnMaster> okay wikipedia calls it "Aleph-naught" in one place
13:56:14 <alise> i.e., letter "aleph", subscript 0.
13:56:22 <alise> Wikipedia calls it "aleph-null" sometimes too.
13:57:54 <fizzie> Wookieepedia says the death star thing is "composed of several exotic matter beams accelerated and amplified by gigantic focusing magnetic lenses and coils, producing a single powerful beam", and taking "energy from a massive hypermatter core, converting the energy present in hyperspace into highly unstable particles that were tremendously destructive in normal space".
13:58:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what is the beam intersection thing you mentioned?
13:58:12 <fizzie> It's not exactly clear how to compute anything from the hue.
13:58:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did they get that from? Is it canon?
13:59:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's from one of the EU novels; I think they have several levels of canonicality in there.
13:59:22 <AnMaster> EU = European ....? Nah can't be...
13:59:50 <impomatic> I got rejected by DMOZ again. They really don't trust me to edit sections of the Open Directory! :-/
14:00:09 <AnMaster> impomatic, what? open directory? which year is this?
14:00:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Expanded, I think.
14:00:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, I don't think you can compute anything from that description at all
14:00:59 <impomatic> Open Directory is still there. Listing is way out of date but still ranking well in Google.
14:01:03 <AnMaster> since it is technoable all the way down
14:01:46 <impomatic> I just wanted to update a couple of sections so it doesn't reflect badly on the subject.
14:02:15 <impomatic> Probably be better if DMOZ just got wiped off the net.
14:02:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, in a full-power shot, "the amount of energy involved were so great it would generate miniscule space-time singularities, sending part of the target's mass to hyperspace and generating a massive shockwave from high-energy tachyons from hyperspace".
14:02:57 <fizzie> "I see no technogabble here."
14:03:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't know Star Wars (ab)used tachyons as well
14:04:47 <maedhros777> Anyone here know which i/o header files <ios> includes?
14:05:41 <maedhros777> Or I'll just write code and see if it compiles.
14:05:52 <AnMaster> maedhros777, might not be portable then
14:06:07 <AnMaster> maedhros777, it is /usr/include/c++/4.5.0/ios here
14:06:27 <AnMaster> I can't find cstdlib in it, probably included indirectly
14:06:37 <AnMaster> maedhros777, anyway the path will vary between systems
14:06:45 <AnMaster> the one I mentioned works on arch linux
14:06:56 <AnMaster> do C++ requires prototypes for everything?
14:07:24 <AnMaster> /usr/include/c++/4.3.3/ios on my ubuntu system
14:07:29 <AnMaster> maedhros777, uh, the usual thing?
14:07:44 <AnMaster> like: void foo(int); in a header?
14:08:11 <AnMaster> maedhros777, you can leave that out in C after all, but compiler will likely warn you
14:08:18 <AnMaster> there are good reasons to NOT leave it out
14:08:45 <maedhros777> I've never tried doing it otherwise, so I'm not sure if it's an error.
14:12:04 <maedhros777> Oh wait, printf() isn't actually included with <ios>
14:12:25 <maedhros777> How would this compile, then? http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?char+pyramid/nn_1271263335&cpp
14:13:41 <maedhros777> Maybe there's something weird with the site's C++ compiler
14:13:44 <AnMaster> maedhros777, perhaps it does allow implicit declarations (thus skipping prototype
14:14:00 <maedhros777> I tried compiling it myself and it didn't work
14:14:36 <AnMaster> maedhros777, I can't see why it wouldn't compile as C99 at least
14:16:10 <maedhros777> Whoah...I think I'm going crazy or something...I just used #import instead of #include :)
14:17:10 <AnMaster> maedhros777, that code used import yes
14:17:32 <AnMaster> it might have a meaning with some preprocessors
14:17:47 <AnMaster> I don't think anything forbids such an implementation specific extension
14:18:16 <maedhros777> Maybe I should do that with the site's compiler, since it cuts down on characters
14:18:28 <fizzie> Objective-C has an #import preprocessor directive.
14:18:45 <fizzie> Possibly the compiler recognizes it even in C++ mode, then.
14:18:56 <fizzie> (If it is a combined C/ObjC/C++ thing.)
14:19:10 <maedhros777> This golf site has like a million languages
14:20:36 <fizzie> My GCC does in C mode, albeit noisily.
14:20:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ cat > test.c
14:20:38 <fizzie> int main(void) { printf("foo\n"); return 0; }
14:20:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ gcc -o test test.c
14:20:38 <fizzie> test.c:1:2: warning: #import is a deprecated GCC extension
14:20:43 <alise> maedhros777: sinh?
14:21:31 <AnMaster> it can't be the objc thing then
14:21:41 <AnMaster> maedhros777, yes, what do you use?
14:22:10 <fizzie> I get the same thing from g++ too.
14:22:23 <fizzie> g++ (Ubuntu 4.4.3-4ubuntu5) 4.4.3, to be exact.
14:24:25 <maedhros777> Oh wait, look at this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/8etzzkb6%28VS.71%29.aspx
14:24:33 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not the GCC #import.
14:24:56 <fizzie> <fizzie> test.c:1:2: warning: #import is a deprecated GCC extension
14:24:59 <fizzie> That sure looks like one.
14:25:18 <fizzie> Possibly it's like the Objective-C #import, just extended to work in the C/C++ modes too.
14:25:45 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it doesn't do what the even weirder Visual C++ #import does.
14:25:48 <maedhros777> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/172262/c-include-and-import-difference
14:26:16 <AnMaster> "Import in gcc: The import in gcc is different from the import in VC++. It is a simple way to include a header at most once only. (In VC++ and GCC you can do this via #pragma once as well)"
14:27:00 <maedhros777> One of the answers noted the "deprecated GCC extension" warning
14:29:01 <AnMaster> it's nice that my desktop doesn't need any file from /lib/firmware. My laptop seems to use two binary firmware blobs, one for ethernet (tg3) and one for wlan (iwlagn)
14:29:29 <maedhros777> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Count+asterisks+
14:30:28 <AnMaster> okay I'm pretty sure that the befunge93 one can only be that short by checking first char
14:30:29 <maedhros777> I should really do this in C instead (less std::)
14:30:56 <maedhros777> In FlogScript, someone did it with 2 chars
14:31:08 <AnMaster> befunge93 with 3 chars? I don't believe it
14:31:10 <fizzie> Gah, there it is in the manual; http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.3.6/cpp/Obsolete-once_002donly-headers.html
14:31:11 <maedhros777> Even with cheating, i still don't understand how that's possible
14:31:25 <AnMaster> heck not even without cheating
14:31:52 <Deewiant> Works for the two samples anyway
14:31:55 <maedhros777> You think it would be cheating if I checked for non-whitespace?
14:32:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the char code of *
14:33:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: Don't you mean ~?
14:33:20 <Deewiant> I never remember which is which
14:33:24 <Deewiant> Since you sound sure, I probably do
14:33:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: I only sound sure because I checked the spec. :p
14:33:41 <maedhros777> So do you think looking for non-whitespace would be cheating?
14:34:34 <AnMaster> hm more than 2 chars there right?
14:35:03 <AnMaster> maedhros777, "output as ascii code" vs. "output as number"
14:35:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wonder what it does with the extra whitespace
14:37:07 <AnMaster> no TeX or LaTeX or Plain TeX as far as I can find
14:41:02 <AnMaster> okay how does it do the erlang thing...
14:41:29 <AnMaster> I mean, it seems to require a full module
14:41:38 <AnMaster> but what would the entry point be
14:43:39 <maedhros777> I think mine is so long because of the std::'s all over the place
14:43:55 <maedhros777> maybe I should've done "using namespace std;"
14:44:45 <alise> I suggest not using C++ :-)
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14:49:07 <maedhros777> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Palindromic+prime
14:50:48 <AnMaster> alise, if you resubmit after making it shorter, is the old one removed?
14:51:06 <alise> if it does, that is a bug
14:51:21 <alise> i don't think you should be allowed to do that
14:51:23 <alise> write shinh in #anagolf
14:51:43 <AnMaster> alise, so you can't have multiple entries by your nick
14:51:58 <AnMaster> since I realised how to cut down on the length you see
14:52:05 <alise> AnMaster: that's a bug because it means anyone can overwrite
14:52:54 -!- maedhros777 has left (?).
14:53:04 <AnMaster> alise, it kept the minimum it seems
14:53:34 <AnMaster> alise, it may be me that got confused somehow
14:54:57 <AnMaster> hm new record . lets see what happened
14:55:13 <AnMaster> okay it definite let me overwrite
14:55:24 <AnMaster> also, the erlang code can be made shorter if not using form
14:55:30 <AnMaster> since you can make a shorter module name then
14:56:55 <AnMaster> alise, mentioned it in that channel
14:57:30 <alise> AnMaster: ping shinh about it
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15:18:49 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC #import is identical to #include, except it is sane if you use it more than once.
15:19:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes we found that
15:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the structure of a circle for complex values of x and y?
15:28:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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15:29:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complex.
15:30:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what are x and y here?
15:31:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why not plot it
15:32:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, you take a pen or pencil and some paper
15:33:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can maybe use x,y,z,colour?
15:33:22 <AnMaster> 3D plot with colour function or such
15:33:45 <AnMaster> I remember getting something that looked really hippie from something rather simple
15:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait the Wolfram Demonstrations Project has something.
15:34:09 <AnMaster> I remember alise said something like "what was that in my drink" or similar as a response to mentioning it in this channel
15:34:38 <AnMaster> grep logs from last year or a bit more
15:34:48 <alise> Or don't because it doesn't matter so much :-)
15:34:59 <AnMaster> but iirc I pasted the code for it
15:35:15 <AnMaster> just modify the expressions required
15:35:25 <AnMaster> same Plot3D or whatever over-all structure
15:38:58 <AnMaster> alise, btw for some reason I'm getting more battery time on my thinkpad nowdays than when it was new
15:39:12 <AnMaster> like from about 3 hours → about 5 hours
15:39:37 <AnMaster> both with wlan turned off and semi-bright screen (brightest is too bright anyway in many places)
15:41:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, found it: http://sprunge.us/QMhM
15:41:47 <AnMaster> it was even using complex stuff
15:43:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, something random as a test. Was trying to figure out how to plot something similar
15:43:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, forgot what the actual function I wanted to plot was
15:43:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it may allow you to plot that circle
15:44:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well should work too?
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16:11:48 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Peter_Treveris_-_engraving_of_Trepanation_for_Handywarke_of_surgeri_1525.png
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16:16:45 <alise> AnMaster: That picture is so the opposite of ^_^ in every way :P
16:21:04 <AnMaster> alise, well yes, it was "^_^" at you linking it
16:32:52 <alise> Kuratowski ordered pairs require deciding equality on sets :/
16:33:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:34:23 <oerjan> does this mean i've been missed?
16:35:52 <oerjan> do you browse the logs? i've been commenting on your beta reduction questions but your connection dropped
16:36:31 <oerjan> possibly several times
16:39:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:45:19 <uorygl> Aww, I was hoping we would have all six.
16:45:26 <oerjan> hi Adrian^L Alex3012 AnMaster augur BeholdMyGlory bsmntbombdood cal153 chickenzilla comex Deewiant FireFly fizzie Geekthras Gracenotes Gregor Ilari ineiros jcp jix Leonidas lifthrasiir Mathnerd314 MizardX mtve mycroftiv myndzi olsner P4 Phantom_Hoover pikhq pineapple Quadrescence rodgort sebbu2 SimonRC Slereah sshc wareya yiyus ZeroOne
16:45:38 * sebbu2 slaps oerjan around a bit with a very large trout
16:46:09 <oerjan> it _seemed_ the obvious followup
16:46:17 * sebbu2 catch oerjan and tear him apart
16:46:37 <oerjan> to alise, Phantom_Hoover and uorygl
16:46:50 <oerjan> oh wait i should have left out Phantom_Hoover in the list
16:47:01 <Gracenotes> NAMES spam can be good, because it brings a channel together against a common enemy
16:47:03 <oerjan> no need being _redundant_
16:47:12 <Gracenotes> unless that enemy is not immediately kickbanned :|
16:47:33 <Gracenotes> or at least given a week of paid leave
16:47:35 <uorygl> Yeah, where's our /attack command? We should be able to drain oerjan's hitpoints.
16:48:10 <oerjan> argh no, not the flash!
16:51:21 <alise> CIGARS ARE LIKE FLOWERS
16:51:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, for that mass-highlight
16:51:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, dropped a 1-gigaton weight on top of you
16:51:57 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it's possible for a Life spaceship to travel at <c
16:52:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: of courwse
16:52:28 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: every Life spaceship does.
16:52:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um they all do
16:52:46 <alise> although that is not <c ofc
16:52:46 <oerjan> you cannot have a spaceship at == c iirc
16:53:02 <uorygl> Right, for an orthogonal spaceship, the fastest speed is c/2.
16:53:04 <oerjan> and >c is of course impossible by definition
16:53:08 <alise> I forget the proof, but it has been proved that some spaceship is the fastest possible
16:53:28 <alise> oerjan: I wonder if we could add an "axiom" to Life that functions as a >c-travelling spaceship. Then observe the hilarious effects of time travel.
16:53:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, can't you do something like a tunnel iirc by placing some pattern which basically "forwards" the glider at faster than c
16:53:53 <uorygl> Alas, Life doesn't obey relativity.
16:54:00 <AnMaster> of course that is cheating but I saw it in some golly example
16:54:03 <oerjan> you don't get time travel unless it's also invariant under lorentz transformations
16:54:11 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: right, with a track, you can go at c.
16:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> No effect propagates faster than c, it just looks like that.
16:54:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah possibly, I don't remember the details
16:54:39 <poiuy_qwert> anyone heard of an IRC bot in an esoteric language other then fungot?
16:54:39 <fungot> poiuy_qwert: the fnord clan of devil-worshippers. the tramp ship and its crew remain an elusive mystery. though i saw him monstrously perched atop a mountain of beef,
16:55:12 <uorygl> AnMaster: I think it checks whether the front of the spaceship is there, and if so, puts the back on a spaceship whose front it's already produced.
16:55:13 <alise> <uorygl> Alas, Life doesn't obey relativity.
16:55:28 <alise> <oerjan> you don't get time travel unless it's also invariant under lorentz transformations
16:55:39 <oerjan> uorygl: i had a theory once that rule 110 _does_ obey some kind of relativity, because the speeds of many gliders seemed related by a certain function
16:55:41 <uorygl> Wow, you guys collectively said three lines in the time it took for me to type "Roughly speaking."
16:56:01 <alise> Anyway, seriously, adding axiomatic >c travellers to Life.
16:56:07 <oerjan> however i concluded later it may just be an artifact of rule 110's "ether" structure
16:56:19 <uorygl> Stuff goes faster than c.
16:57:00 <uorygl> I type at... let me think, I don't want to name a number that sounds impossible, so 70 WPM.
16:57:15 <alise> poiuy_qwert: netcat
16:57:18 <alise> I type at something like 110 wpm when I'm trying.
16:57:25 <alise> More like 80-90 wpm when I'm not trying.
16:57:43 <uorygl> I wonder how fast I can type on the iPhone.
16:57:46 <alise> poiuy_qwert: no, it's just a program that hooks stdin/stdout to a network
16:57:49 <alise> AnMaster: stop assuming people are on unix
16:57:58 <AnMaster> alise, I refuse to stop assuming that
16:58:06 <alise> I think it is fairly safe to say that I am an above-competent typer, since I've been doing it since I was three.
16:58:07 <AnMaster> alise, well I can start assuming everyone is on plan9 then
16:58:09 <uorygl> I'm on a Mac, and even I am on Unix.
16:58:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: ais523's bot was in thutu(2?), not thue iirc. it supported an underload interpreter...
16:58:18 <alise> Most people are not in Unix.
16:58:19 <poiuy_qwert> well actually im on Mac so i should know this, but im fairly new to unix command line
16:58:37 <alise> poiuy_qwert: It's okay not to know things. Nobody expects you to be psychic. Well, nobody reasonable.
16:58:40 <alise> oerjan: yeah it was thutu2
16:58:40 <AnMaster> no idea if macs include nc by default
17:00:08 <poiuy_qwert> making an IRC bot in an esoteric language has been my goal since starting esoteric languages :P
17:01:18 <oerjan> (btw it might still be that rule 110 has _some_ lorentz transformation-like thing possible, but it's probably going to require something like those life cell simulated in life things, with a time shift.)
17:03:13 <alise> oerjan: So what effects do you think a >c spaceship would have interacting with other things?
17:03:54 <oerjan> well almost by definition it would mean the c isn't _really_ the c for the CA...
17:04:01 <alise> Hmm, I guess if you have three observers a few cells apart on the same line, and a spaceship travelling towards them, they'd see it come right next to them then disappear; the observers behind it would then experience the same.
17:04:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Axiomatically.
17:04:29 <alise> Consider cells to have colour white, black or octarine; octarine cells in certain configurations are defined as moving faster than c in directions according to those configurations.
17:04:30 <Phantom_Hoover> But do we have an extra state, or a weird change to the transition rules?
17:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so how do octarine cells react with white and black cells?
17:04:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: For all other purposes -- such as deciding what should happen to other cells -- octarine cells are considered as white.
17:05:08 <uorygl> White means dead, right?
17:05:49 <Phantom_Hoover> uorygl: It makes no difference, but I consider them live.
17:06:07 <uorygl> Dead and live are not the same thing.
17:06:14 <alise> White means alive.
17:06:42 <uorygl> For some reason, I think of octarine as being periwinkle, even though everyone knows it's a greenish-yellow purple.
17:06:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They interact with each other in a way that encodes which direction they go.
17:06:53 <alise> How that is is unknown.
17:07:03 <alise> But suppose they exist; then what?
17:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> To work out all the implications we need more information.
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17:08:16 <uorygl> How about this: If there's an L- or J-tetromino within an otherwise empty 4x7 block, then the next generation, it moves forward by two.
17:08:23 <alise> An octarine cannot arise naturally.
17:08:32 <alise> It is an Act of God for octarine cells to exist in the initial configuration.
17:08:46 <alise> They can be destroyed by colliding with white cells as if they were themselves white.
17:09:05 <alise> So they are not indestructable, but locally in their own configuration of octarines and blacks they perform completely differently, as spaceships exceeding c.
17:09:15 <AnMaster> alise, so they go away after 1 generation?
17:09:18 <alise> They do not; or rather, they only do so by moving more than one cell per cycle.
17:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so let us suppose that we have an octarine, and that each generation it dies and a new octarine is produced two cells to the right.
17:10:41 <alise> Yes, let us say that. In reality, they would be in packed configurations determining the direction.
17:10:54 <alise> However, also say that if there are other cells in its neighbourhood:
17:11:10 <alise> Run the general algorithm to find out whether it would live or die were it white.
17:11:15 <alise> If it would life, move it two cells to the right as planned.
17:11:23 <alise> If it would die, make it dead; the spaceship is destroyed.
17:11:32 <alise> For the purposes of the algorithm in all cases, octarine cells are treat as white.
17:11:41 <AnMaster> alise, so what if it would live but mutate into a different shape?
17:11:42 <alise> And nothing ever creates an octarine cell.
17:11:47 <alise> AnMaster: That is impossible.
17:11:49 <alise> We are talking about single cells.
17:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So an octarine block would be a spaceship in a vacuum?
17:12:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, travelling at >c.
17:12:33 <AnMaster> alise, depends on your reference frame
17:12:41 <AnMaster> if you are traveling at the same speed...
17:12:46 <alise> The questions are: from an "observer's" point of view, how do these spaceships work?; and how do collisions with them work?
17:13:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it would be fun if it was!
17:13:24 <AnMaster> alise, so implement it and test it
17:13:33 <alise> AnMaster: I'd rather have us collectively think about it first.
17:14:18 <alise> That is a good question.
17:14:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, presumably one would overwrite the other, or both would die
17:14:30 <alise> It will either become octarine, become alive, or become dead.
17:14:33 <alise> These are the only choices.
17:14:36 <alise> Well, let's think about collisions.
17:14:41 <alise> A spaceship bashes into a wall.
17:14:51 <alise> Let's say the wall is infinitely strong.
17:14:55 <alise> The spaceship is destroyed. The wall is not.
17:15:01 <alise> That is an argument for become-alive.
17:15:05 <alise> A spaceship bashes into a wall.
17:15:13 <alise> The spaceship is infinitely strong; the wall not.
17:15:19 <alise> The wall is go bye-bye; spaceship takes its place.
17:15:21 <AnMaster> alise, what if both the spaceship and the walls are infinitely strong?
17:15:23 <alise> That is an argument for become-octarine.
17:15:25 <alise> A spaceship bashes into a wall.
17:15:28 <alise> Both are infinitely strong.
17:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Remember, the spaceship is travelling at twice the speed of light.
17:15:33 <alise> The universe explodes. Both disappear.
17:15:36 <alise> That is an argument for become-dead.
17:15:53 <AnMaster> alise, if neither is infinitely strong?
17:16:06 <alise> Well, infinitely strong really just means stronger than the other.
17:16:11 <AnMaster> alise, Phantom_Hoover, hm you could get quantum tunneling like effects by this
17:16:17 <alise> It seems that become-dead involves a>b, b>a.
17:16:18 <AnMaster> if the wall and the ship are correctly aligned
17:16:19 <alise> So we can ignore that.
17:16:22 <AnMaster> it could pass through the wall
17:16:33 <alise> So which are stronger, regular still cells or fucked up faster-than-light spaceships?
17:16:37 <alise> I guess spaceships.
17:16:42 <alise> So it becomes octarine.
17:16:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes; if it goes next to it.
17:16:49 <alise> AnMaster: that's my main interest
17:17:05 <alise> let o = octarine, a = alive, . = dead
17:17:15 <alise> oa. -> depends because the a would change the octarine right?
17:17:22 <alise> o.a. -> o obliterates a
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17:17:33 <alise> so is there a configuration of octarines and alives such that octarines skip over the alives?
17:17:41 <alise> but feel free to consider
17:17:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: doesn't a line die instantly in life?
17:18:30 <alise> this is going to be one fucked up space ship :)
17:18:41 <AnMaster> alise, oh you mean the rotating mincer yeah ;P
17:19:08 <alise> the rotating, CONSTANTLY ACCELERATING AT 2C, mincer
17:19:12 <alise> so if octarines can skip certain walls
17:19:17 <alise> those walls just have to be in the right place
17:19:21 <alise> and they will avoid death!
17:19:25 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but now imagine the +s are octarine
17:19:53 <AnMaster> alise, how is it constantly accelerating though?
17:19:57 <alise> so I guess octarine cells can be created
17:20:05 <alise> if we're considering the neighbourhoods of octarines
17:20:09 <alise> instead of creating whites we create octarines
17:20:14 <AnMaster> alise, well they have to, otherwise you will always have still-lifes
17:20:17 <alise> AnMaster: because octarines move if they survive by definition
17:20:23 <alise> two cells to the rgith
17:20:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what does?
17:21:21 <alise> How is this not symmetric?
17:21:23 <alise> Oh, the rightwardsness.
17:21:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the long-term plan was that certain configurations of octarines move in different definitions.
17:21:47 <alise> Like, we consider an 8-neighbourhood as a binary number saying direction.
17:21:50 <AnMaster> alise, what sort of configurations
17:22:05 <alise> Such that the "reversal" of a configuration moves in the opposite direction.
17:22:13 <alise> This requires breaking more rules though.
17:22:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Something like that, let us say. A neighbourhood of octarines and blacks, that is.
17:24:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but perhaps this is the Key
17:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe consider the Moore neighbourhood for 2 cells around?
17:25:15 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, isn't this by definition defining the value of c in this CA?
17:25:25 <alise> AnMaster: Probably. But ssh.
17:25:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure.
17:25:39 <uorygl> Define c as one cell per generation. Problem solved. :P
17:25:59 <AnMaster> alise, I think you need a relativistic CA for c to become interesting
17:26:06 <AnMaster> but I can't imagine how that would happen
17:26:19 <alise> Well. Let's do it.
17:26:22 <alise> Wolfram would be proud.
17:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Relativity sort of implies non-discrete time and space.
17:26:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, exactly the issue yeah
17:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a term we use to describe the behaviour of patterns that regenerate themselves somewhere else.
17:29:09 <AnMaster> Reminds me of that esolang... Gravity iirc
17:29:11 <alise> Hey, we can invent discrete relativity.
17:29:23 <alise> AnMaster: yes and no
17:29:39 <AnMaster> well uncomputable in general iirc
17:29:53 <AnMaster> alise, that might work too, but I can't figure out how you get discrete relativistic effects
17:29:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Let's NOT!
17:30:02 <alise> Yesiree, relativity without primitive time!
17:30:09 <alise> Or if that's not possible, eh, we'll Work Something Out.
17:30:44 <AnMaster> well, yes time will pass at different rates in different parts due to relativity. Well not different parts. For different observers rather.
17:31:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Cleverly.
17:31:20 <AnMaster> we would still have a c, but it would be relative observer, no?
17:31:24 <alise> Hmm, we need a physicist here.
17:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> If we haven't defined *what* speed is, we can't do relativity.
17:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't really make sense for non-spaceshippy objects.
17:32:08 <AnMaster> what doesn't? speed? relativity?
17:32:38 <AnMaster> anyway, why do we need a discrete CA?
17:32:48 <AnMaster> why not make a non-discrete one?
17:33:20 <alise> A continuous CA has several problems, such as: not being a CA; and being uncomputable.
17:33:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, we need to define a notion of another cell being the "heir" of another cell.
17:33:43 <alise> Then the speed is the distance between a cell and its heir across a generation.
17:34:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, actually it is a CA even if not discrete. Except CA now stands for Continuous Automaton ;P
17:34:18 <alise> Not if we define the CA such that we have some equation.
17:34:25 <alise> Such that given a cell and its neighbourhood, we can point to its heir.
17:35:31 <alise> Yes. But the neighbourhood provides more information.
17:36:18 <alise> Life isn't reversible.
17:36:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, to it's heir, not to it's parents
17:36:27 <AnMaster> the latter would be reversible
17:36:29 <alise> And what AnMaster said.
17:37:00 <AnMaster> alise, how can we get anything relativistic from this though
17:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> By relativistic effects we mean contraction and time dilation, right?
17:37:22 <AnMaster> alise, time slowing down or such depending on observers sounds like something we should have
17:37:25 <alise> Well, my definition gives us a definition of speed.
17:37:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that sort of stuff yes
17:37:35 <alise> Then we just need to sort of discretise the relativity formulas and tweak them a bit.
17:37:58 <AnMaster> alise, also is this special relativity only?
17:38:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Consider a notion of distance xDy.
17:38:40 <AnMaster> why not. you could compute some sort of average by number of alive cells at any point
17:38:54 <alise> Given two pairs of coordinates (a,b) and (c,d) (a,b)D(c,d) is some distance metric on them, such that (a,b)D(a,b) = 0.
17:38:57 <AnMaster> with some function to reduce weight when further away
17:38:58 <alise> And probably some other properties too.
17:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: So we define speed as the distance from the heir?
17:39:22 <alise> Then consider the heir of a cell (x,y) according to its state and its neighbourhood being a set of coordinates (xH,yH).
17:39:38 <alise> Then the amount a cell (x,y) moved across a generation is (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:39:42 <oerjan> i go away to make food and here you go reinventing _my_ idea of relativistic CAs. shame on you. </half-joke>
17:39:56 <alise> That is, for the generation, its speed was (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:39:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, with something like inverse square root you would get newtownian gravity. I don't really know the formulas for general relativity style gravity, but can't see why something similar shouldn't work (but with a different function of course)
17:40:01 <alise> Of course, its speed can change.
17:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Good enough?
17:40:33 <alise> So, let's not say speed, let's say velocity.
17:40:49 <AnMaster> alise, by that definition classical life would have a velocity of 1 right?
17:40:51 <alise> Should we just write (a,b) - (c,d) instead of distance?
17:40:57 <alise> (a,b) - (c,d) = (a - c, b - d)
17:41:24 <alise> I don't think you can define a good notion of heir for Life.
17:41:52 <AnMaster> anyway should we use straight distance or manhattan distance?
17:42:04 <AnMaster> alise, and wouldn't the distance vary with velocity (relativistic effects)
17:42:10 -!- soupdragon has joined.
17:42:22 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d)=(a-c,b-d)
17:42:28 <alise> Is this Manhattan or straight?
17:42:47 <AnMaster> uh... that is a vector between them
17:42:52 <AnMaster> which is not a distance as such
17:42:59 <alise> But velocity is a vector.
17:43:07 <alise> But what I meant by velocity is.
17:43:12 <oerjan> manhattan is |a-c| + |b-d|
17:43:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well okay, bad word choice
17:43:49 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d)=(a-c,b-d)
17:43:49 <alise> (a,b)<with|math-font|Euler|D>(c,d)=\|a-c\|+\|b-d\|
17:43:54 <alise> let me write it out
17:43:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but isn't momentum a vector?
17:43:59 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:44:03 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:44:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, do photons have a momentum?
17:44:19 <alise> Then "v = (x,y)D(xH,yH)", yes?
17:44:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, they have no mass
17:44:30 <AnMaster> so well if reality can do it...
17:44:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes they have energy
17:44:49 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:44:49 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:44:49 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:44:49 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:44:49 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:45:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but we would with some general relativity :P
17:45:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: E^2 - (pc)^2 = (mc^2)^2, where only the whole thing is 0 for a photon
17:45:49 <alise> AnMaster: give them variable names and give them names like "velocity", etc
17:46:03 <alise> soupdragon: repeat the message plz
17:46:23 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I say this won't work since you can't get time slowdown and distance reduction (whatever they were called, forgot)
17:46:31 <AnMaster> I can't see how you can get that
17:46:35 <alise> soupdragon: well... tell me anyway!
17:46:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Too much chat).
17:46:56 <alise> I won't; which day so I know which day not to read?
17:47:11 <alise> Usually I logread every day.
17:47:36 <alise> Anyway, name them dammit!
17:48:02 <alise> Sheesh, you do it Phantom_Hoover.
17:48:05 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:48:05 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:48:05 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:48:05 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:48:05 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:48:08 <AnMaster> alise, but I can't see how you can get relativistic effects from it :(
17:48:18 <alise> AnMaster: well after this we'll define relative velocity...
17:48:42 <AnMaster> alise, we need some fixed light speed to get any relativistic effects, no?
17:48:50 <alise> yes, but let's name these first :P
17:48:56 <AnMaster> or some other absolute for every observer
17:49:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how would we get relativistic effects between observers then?
17:51:02 <AnMaster> and how would that be ensured to have relativistic effects?
17:51:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: NAME IT DOG GAMMIT
17:51:21 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:51:22 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:51:22 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:51:22 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:51:22 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:51:42 <alise> 13:09:59 <soupdragon> Message to alise from the roughly 4 days in the past:
17:51:42 <alise> 13:10:20 <soupdragon> π/√8 = 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11 - ...
17:51:42 <alise> 13:10:21 <soupdragon> π^2/8 = 1 + 1/3^2 + 1/5^2 + 1/7^2 + 1/9^2 + 1/11^2 + ...
17:51:42 <alise> 13:10:39 <soupdragon> End
17:51:45 <alise> this is the thing i must not read yeah?
17:52:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but isn't the point of relativity that, from any given observer everyone else is moving no faster than light?
17:52:51 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:52:51 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:52:52 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:52:52 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:52:52 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:52:55 <alise> soupdragon: fine, you name the above :-)
17:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Things can appear to be travelling faster than light due to space's expansion.
17:53:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well okay but without that expansion it can't happen right?
17:53:16 <alise> the heir being the cell that (x,y) is considered to have "moved to".
17:53:22 <AnMaster> alise, well one should be distance
17:53:24 <alise> (xH,yH) is always alive
17:53:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which is which?
17:53:31 <AnMaster> the other one yeah displacement sounds nice
17:53:52 <alise> displacement and distance start with the same letter
17:53:56 <alise> give them variable names :P
17:54:12 <alise> should one be called velocity?
17:54:27 <AnMaster> alise, delta also starts with d
17:54:47 <AnMaster> alise, none of them are velocity afaik?
17:54:49 <alise> AnMaster: could use the uppercase delta
17:54:52 <alise> or even the lowercase
17:55:04 <AnMaster> oh you mean the greek letter heh
17:55:18 <alise> and use that for displacement, yeah?
17:55:23 <AnMaster> the former is what you use for distance delta
17:55:24 <alise> δ clashes with derivaterivy stuff but meh
17:55:45 <AnMaster> alise, Δ clashes with derivaterivy too, no?
17:55:52 <alise> yeah... but we're not doing derivatives
17:55:56 <alise> since that's real, continuous stuff
17:56:00 <alise> and we're in a finite world
17:56:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, copy and paste from alise
17:56:05 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:56:05 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:56:05 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:56:05 <alise> δ = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:56:05 <alise> Δ = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:56:06 <alise> δ is displacement; Δ is distance.
17:56:16 <alise> we can say delta and Delta for convenience.
17:56:22 -!- lament has joined.
17:56:23 <alise> or \delta and \Delta if that is not unambiguous enough for you.
17:56:37 <alise> let's define velocity now
17:57:43 <alise> δ is unrestricted; Δ is > 0
17:57:49 <alise> AnMaster: we have not defined velocity
17:57:55 <alise> so it does not matter yet i think
17:58:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: don't we need velocity to define acceleration?
17:58:24 <AnMaster> alise, it does, you need a coordinate system to have a vector in if you want to put any numbers to it
17:58:33 <AnMaster> which you need for that definition
17:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Since time is discrete, displacement and velocity are pretty much equivalent.
17:58:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: True.
17:58:56 <alise> So why not call (x,y)-(xH,yH) v, for velocity?
17:59:07 <alise> <alise> So why not call (x,y)-(xH,yH) v, for velocity?
17:59:24 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:59:24 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:59:24 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:59:24 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:59:24 <alise> d = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:59:25 <alise> v is velocity/displacement; d is distance.
17:59:42 <soupdragon> stop fucking overreacting for christs sake
17:59:47 <alise> please hit soupdragon with a bat
18:00:08 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
18:00:08 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
18:00:08 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
18:00:08 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:00:08 -!- cheater2 has joined.
18:00:10 <alise> d = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
18:00:12 <alise> v is velocity/displacement; d is speed/distance(sort of).
18:00:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, he is not connected
18:00:26 <soupdragon> god it's like a bunch of stupid idiots in here
18:00:30 -!- nooga has joined.
18:00:33 <alise> We still have yet to define how to calculate a heir; it depends on the actual CA rules, so we'll just leave it as postulated for now.
18:00:36 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw CTO
18:00:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We should define relative velocity now, yeah?
18:01:22 <AnMaster> alise, and that must have an upper bound. I'm pretty sure we don't get relativistic effects otherwise
18:01:26 <alise> I don't see any problem with using the usual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_velocity definition.
18:01:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so how does stuff accelerate?
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We should define relative velocity now, yeah?
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> alise, and that must have an upper bound. I'm pretty sure we don't get relativistic effects otherwise
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <alise> I don't see any problem with using the usual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_velocity definition.
18:02:25 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw <- my 8080 crunching some numbers
18:02:36 <AnMaster> alise, it needs to be manhattan/madhatter distance or such
18:02:55 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
18:03:00 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
18:03:00 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
18:03:01 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
18:03:01 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:03:01 <alise> d = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
18:03:03 <alise> v is velocity/displacement; d is speed/distance(sort of).
18:03:05 <alise> Let v[(x,y)] be v with the specified (x,y), and so on.
18:03:06 <AnMaster> probably carries over to the relative
18:03:07 <alise> Relative velocity:
18:03:08 <soupdragon> OMG ALISE STOP SPAMMING DUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
18:03:09 <alise> v[A rel B] = v[A] - v[B]
18:03:11 <alise> The interesting thing here is that it depends on the heirs of two separate
18:03:13 <alise> particles, that will "move" into their new positions this generation.
18:03:16 <soupdragon> IHELPP!!!!!! ARE THERE ANY OPS I CANT HANDLE THIS
18:03:19 <alise> soupdragon: seriously just shut up.
18:03:31 <alise> nooga: i'll watch that vid now
18:03:33 <alise> it doesn't need sound right
18:03:37 <AnMaster> but yes that paste was uncalled for kind of
18:03:47 <alise> AnMaster: I wsa just putting the current state of play
18:03:56 <alise> I'll use pastie now it's big, swear.
18:03:56 <AnMaster> alise, we need pastebin very soon
18:04:03 <zzo38> Do you know which stores would sell Latin suited tarot cards?
18:04:08 <alise> nooga: that 8088 is a masterpiece
18:04:20 <alise> nooga: I've revised my opinion of you, for making a custom 8088 computer from scratch you are cool
18:04:40 <nooga> i need to get RAM working
18:04:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: so
18:04:51 <alise> we have up to relative velocity
18:04:51 <nooga> and then move to multiprocessor configuration
18:04:56 <alise> we should define acceleration, right?
18:05:20 <alise> Let (x,y)H be (xH,yH)
18:05:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:05:28 <alise> then we have the distance between two movings:
18:05:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
18:05:43 <AnMaster> nooga, next one: built it from simple logic DIP things. I suggest the 74HC* series
18:05:49 <AnMaster> as in the cpu itself from that
18:06:08 <alise> |(x,y)D(xH,yH) - (xH,yH)D(xHH,yHH)|
18:06:29 <alise> | |x-xH| + |y-yH| - |xH-xHH| + |yH-yHH| |
18:06:47 <nooga> AnMaster: i thought about that but then i realized it would be too big to assembe it without mistakes
18:07:11 <AnMaster> nooga, for multi-cpu won't you need some kind of MMU?
18:07:24 <alise> | |x-xH| + |y-yH| - |xH-xHH| + |yH-yHH| | = can we simplify this?
18:07:51 <AnMaster> nooga, I mean, to avoid collision they need to sync somehow when accessing the shared ram
18:07:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so then we have the accelleration between two instants
18:07:58 <alise> so we just have to generalise that
18:08:02 <zzo38> I have built a simulation of CPU using a simulation of logic components
18:08:54 <AnMaster> alise, I don't think we can simplify past an abs() no. Not without loosing some possible values
18:09:04 <AnMaster> it's kind of like square + square root when it comes to that
18:09:06 <alise> anyway that is |d[A] - d[AH]|
18:09:12 <AnMaster> in fact it is pretty much exactly like that
18:09:25 <alise> Difference of speed across two generations: |d[A] - d[AH]|
18:09:36 <alise> Difference of speed across three generations: |d[A] - d[AH] - d[AHH]|
18:09:55 <alise> Difference of speed across three generations: |d[A] - d[AHH]|
18:10:00 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: |d[A] - d[A{H^n}]|
18:10:13 <alise> wait, do we need relative speed?
18:10:21 <alise> can we define that in the same way as relative velocity?
18:10:46 <AnMaster> can't you just take manhattan distance of the relative velocity?
18:11:06 <alise> so is relative velocity
18:11:21 <alise> should we rename d to s, if it's being called speed?
18:11:22 <AnMaster> alise, we still haven't got any relativistic effects here
18:11:29 <alise> AnMaster: We have to freaking build a foundation first.
18:11:42 <AnMaster> alise, this is a newtonian+manhattan foundation :/
18:12:02 <alise> Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A{H^n}] - v[A]
18:12:02 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: s[A{H^n}] - s[A]
18:12:06 <alise> should this be v[A] - ...
18:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but we need to *define* acceleration and velocity before we can start on relativity.
18:12:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but won't those be defined differently when you have relativity?
18:12:49 <soupdragon> also you don't even know about lagrangian density .
18:13:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Difference of speed across n generations: s[A{H^n}] - s[A]
18:13:23 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: s[A] - s[A{H^n}]
18:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Yes, but it's helpful to have an idea as to what they look like.
18:13:28 <alise> relative velocity/speed don't have abses
18:13:33 <alise> so I'm sort of averse to using an abs there
18:14:09 <alise> and difference of speed too
18:14:10 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: |s[A{H^n}] - s[A]|
18:14:15 <alise> (s is the new name for d)
18:14:23 <alise> Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A{H^n}] - v[A]
18:14:27 <AnMaster> alise, don't we have non-integer speeds here?
18:14:29 <alise> Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A] - v[A{H^n}]
18:14:37 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, consider a velocity of (1,1)
18:14:41 <alise> Incidentally relative speed is s[A rel AH]
18:14:52 <AnMaster> I need to wake up or something
18:15:25 <alise> http://pastie.org/961772.txt?key=owdr0qfbg56tuesrlbceg
18:15:27 <alise> Let v[(x,y)] be v with the specified (x,y), and so on.
18:15:31 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:15:41 <alise> v[A] where A=(a,b) is (a,b)-(aH,bH)
18:15:49 <alise> read x[y] as x subscript y
18:15:54 <AnMaster> so a directed finite distance?
18:15:55 <alise> since that's how it'd be rendered normally
18:16:02 <AnMaster> that is, a vector from a specific point
18:16:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so we have differences of velocity and speed across n generations
18:16:22 <alise> AnMaster: I guess so
18:16:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how should we define acceleration?
18:16:57 <AnMaster> alise, mathematically vectors have a length and direction. But not an x,y location or anything such
18:17:09 <alise> Hmm, well ordinarily we'd do a = dv/dt where v(t) is velocity at a certain time
18:17:18 <alise> This is the finite calculus!
18:17:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I think the answer is "not yet"
18:17:36 <soupdragon> oh wait nobody was listening to me AS USUAL
18:17:37 <alise> where 1 is the smallest time increment, one generation
18:17:46 <AnMaster> soupdragon, only because you were rather rude
18:19:15 <AnMaster> sucks at social skills though. not enough data to figure out your intelligence
18:19:36 <AnMaster> alise, wait, smallest time increment?
18:19:46 <AnMaster> alise, we can't get the relativistic time effects then can we?
18:19:48 <alise> I'm writing stuff out
18:19:56 <alise> soupdragon: funny, thinking you're smarter than everyone else is a sure sign you aren't
18:20:56 <nooga> i'll try to make semaphores on various sections of RAM
18:21:35 <alise> soupdragon: because you are nasty to them
18:22:01 <AnMaster> does that idiom exist in English as well?
18:22:03 <nooga> and write a kernel that runs on single processor and controls other units
18:22:21 <alise> waking up on the wrong side of the bed
18:22:23 <AnMaster> I definitely think soupdragon did that
18:22:35 <AnMaster> alise, ah right, in Sweden we skip the "of the bed" bit
18:22:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no a script of a non-bot
18:23:03 <AnMaster> never seen that guy talk though
18:23:04 <nooga> in Poland we say "To get up with the left leg."
18:23:17 <soupdragon> In soviet russia we say "Bed gets out of you"
18:24:04 <AnMaster> anyway how will you do the semaphores?
18:24:30 <AnMaster> nooga, you need some sort of low level arbiter if both requests to read/write arrive at once
18:24:36 <AnMaster> some kind of bus ownership or whatever
18:25:11 <AnMaster> you can't have more than one device writing on a bus at once. (well you can but it isn't a good idea...)
18:25:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, we're going to have to write the simulator for this ourselves.
18:25:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yes, and?
18:25:42 <AnMaster> once he thinks of a name for it
18:26:09 <AnMaster> (and invented three separate OS and one replacement for the concept of file systems)
18:26:16 <AnMaster> (invented, not actually wrote them)
18:27:13 <alise> Then acceleration, a, is
18:27:14 <alise> = v[A rel A{H^t+1}] - v[A rel A{H^t}]
18:27:14 <alise> = v[A] - v[A{H^t+1}] - v[A] - v[A{H^t}]
18:27:14 <alise> = A - AH - A{H^t+1} - A{H^t+2} - A - AH - A{H^t} - A{H^t+1}
18:27:16 <alise> = -2 AH - 2 A{H^t+1} - A{H^t+2} - A{H^t}
18:27:26 <alise> That seems a very strange result.
18:27:35 <alise> Oh, man, it /is/ the wrong way around.
18:27:41 <alise> sec, just rewriting it
18:27:45 <alise> then I'll pastie the whole thing
18:27:48 <AnMaster> alise, also where did the abs() go?
18:28:27 <zzo38> I had idea making up a new pack of cards.
18:28:30 <AnMaster> I don't believe you can get rid of all abs() quite that easily...
18:28:57 <zzo38> The case has multiple compartments, for four decks of cards, poker chips, pegs, dice, etc
18:28:57 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:28:58 <alise> s = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
18:29:27 <AnMaster> nooga, so how are you going to solve both trying to write at once?
18:29:48 <zzo38> The cards have the suit/number also written in horizontal in the right corner as well as the suit/number vertical on the left corner, so that you can see the suit even if arranged the cards in a different order
18:29:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, also it would be funnier with a comma between "poker" and "chips"
18:29:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:30:12 <zzo38> AnMaster: Hahahahahaha I suppose it is funny. But that's just the joke
18:30:20 <AnMaster> alise, link oerjan to our current draft...
18:30:44 <AnMaster> didn't he say he had some idea for it?
18:30:51 <nooga> Ii didn't think about the details yet but still, multiprocessor is my goal :D
18:30:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, how far did you get with that idea?
18:31:12 <zzo38> Four packs of cards, one with blue checkerboard pattern on back, one with red checkerboard pattern on back, and two with spiders on back (both identical, and also invertible).
18:31:32 <zzo38> The blue checkerboard cards and one of the spiders pack has blue dots next to the number on the front of the cards.
18:31:40 <oerjan> not very far. i was sort of hoping rule 110 was an example.
18:31:43 <nooga> probably i would need some clever piece of hardware that buffers output of units
18:31:57 <zzo38> The outside of the case is also a checkerboard, cribbage board, and with an arrow so you can keep track of who is dealer or whatever.
18:32:45 <oerjan> rule 110 has lots of gliders of various speeds, as you'd expect from a CA with relativistic features
18:33:01 <zzo38> And since the game has eight jokers in all, each joker can be differently on the front. Each deck has one black and one red joker (indicated by black/red star where the number/suit gues), and different designs on the front.
18:33:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, but was it relativistic?
18:33:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, and doesn't GOL have gliders at various speeds too?
18:33:28 <oerjan> i never found a working lorentz transformation (which would have had to be one-way btw)
18:33:33 <zzo38> Like, one joker might have one suit on each edge, one might have roman numbers I to IV on each edge, one might be V to VIII, etc. In the middle of the design, there might be reference to poker hands or whatever else might go there.
18:33:51 <oerjan> well i suppose it does
18:33:52 <zzo38> This is one way of keeping track of trump suits.
18:34:00 <zzo38> As well as other things.
18:34:02 <AnMaster> but I fail to see what such a pack is good for
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18:34:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm? what do you mean lorentz transformations?
18:34:51 <oerjan> anyway a "real" relativistic CA should have at least some working lorentz transformations
18:34:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, also how do you get time dilation in rule 110?
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18:35:05 <zzo38> There is one other thing I forgot: On each card, there is an arrow to the left of the right indicators. It is pointing upwards if you are holding the card one way, downwards if you hold the card the other way.
18:35:13 <oerjan> a lorentz transformation is the map for changing coordinates in relativity
18:35:39 <zzo38> AnMaster: I am not discussing a single pack, but rather, a case containing four decks as well as other things.
18:35:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, so a traveling gaming kit?
18:35:56 <zzo38> I called this set ULTRACARD.
18:35:58 <oerjan> once you have that, time dilation is obvious, since gliders map into different speed gliders with it
18:36:24 <zzo38> Yes, it can be travel card game, but it can be used for other things as well, even.
18:36:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think this is more advanced than what we are doing. Hope alise post that link soon
18:36:42 <zzo38> You can easily tell which are single and double packs of cards, even!
18:36:46 <alise> AnMaster: i'm rewriting it a bit, see /msg
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18:36:59 <alise> oerjan: what /we're/ doing is badly translating basic physics into CA terms
18:37:02 <oerjan> i don't even know whether a CA lorentz transformation is possible, fwiw
18:37:04 <zzo38> And many cards games might use some extra equipment, which is included here.
18:37:25 <oerjan> at least a reversible one.
18:37:29 <zzo38> Also I think my design of the jokers is improved way of design of jokers.
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18:37:54 <nooga> did you know that if you display tha CA grid from a perspective of obserfver placed on the grid and taking assumption that information travels with the speed of one square per tick
18:38:14 <nooga> you get a doppler effect when glider approaches the observer?
18:38:57 <zzo38> I don't see how, if it is not relativistic space?
18:39:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about contraction though?
18:39:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, the other special relativity effect
18:40:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: those are connected really. basically the lorentz transformation i'm thinking of is approximately a linear/affine map of one spacetime to the other, preserving the maximal speed (as in ordinary relativity)
18:40:34 <nooga> zzo38: since you add the speed of information...
18:40:57 <oerjan> from that it follows that the transformed versions of things will seem contracted and dilated
18:42:08 <oerjan> rule 110 was interesting because the maximal speed within its "ether" grid pattern is _not_ 1 as it is for the full automaton
18:42:31 <oerjan> also the ether grid pattern _looks_ sort of time shifted already
18:43:01 <oerjan> (the shortest repetition is something like 4 steps left, 1 step forward in time)
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18:44:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, also general relativity of some sort. At least I see that as a good if we get something working for special. It would be rather trivial to define gravity in any given point anyway
18:45:08 <oerjan> general relativity is immensely more complicated than special
18:46:07 <oerjan> a non-fixed spacetime is sort of the _essence_ of it, the opposite of a CA
18:46:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, well you could define alive cells to have a mass of 1, then compute "mass-something" in any given point by looking at neighbourhood with a function to reduce the importance of far-away cells
18:46:36 <soupdragon> I heard wolfram is doing some work in this area
18:46:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, shouldn't that work for finding out mass centers
18:47:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's just basic gravity, general relativity is about gravity changing spacetime
18:47:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes we get to that, but before we can get to it we need a notion of mass, no?
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18:48:35 <oerjan> you'd want a notion of mass for really doing special relativity as well
18:48:42 <alise> oerjan: I'm defining my stuff :P
18:48:44 <alise> you'll see it soon
18:48:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that is what I gave above?
18:49:34 <AnMaster> isn't standard model quantum mechanics?
18:50:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, so once you have this notion of mass I gave above, then you have to compute how much it deforms space time in any given point.
18:50:36 <oerjan> the standard model is special relativistic, though
18:51:11 <alise> oerjan: Here you go: http://pastie.org/961798.txt?key=srjlqknik7dtjpwunkeg We used to say a cell A and AH directly, but this abstracted particle-function notion has simplified things a lot.
18:51:18 <alise> Also, has let me used finite derivative.
18:51:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I can't see why not, as long as it is curved in a discrete way
18:51:25 <alise> It's not much, I'm basically just defining discrete trivial physics.
18:51:34 <alise> But there you go; derivatives map to finite derivatives as they should and all.
18:51:37 <alise> Make of it what you will.
18:52:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, by bending their path. Needs to be in discrete steps of course
18:52:17 <alise> oerjan: The rule for acceleration seems... strange.
18:52:46 <alise> GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: http://pastie.org/961798.txt?key=srjlqknik7dtjpwunkeg is the latest thing
18:52:59 <alise> Apparently the acceleration of a particle A is A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) - A(t)
18:53:07 <alise> Where A(n) = A{H^n}
18:53:25 <alise> Starting at t=0, acceleration is AHH - 2 AH - A
18:53:50 <alise> AnMaster: {} is just lexical stuff.
18:53:59 <alise> We don't use it any more
18:54:02 <alise> it was just what I used before
18:54:06 <alise> it's now particle functions
18:54:20 <AnMaster> alise, sure we can translate this back into a CA though?
18:55:11 <alise> Let A(n) = (0,n+1). Starting at t=0, aA = (0,3) - 2 (0,2) - (0,1) = (0,3) - (0,4) - (0,1) = (0,1).
18:55:30 <alise> that does not seem quite right
18:55:35 <alise> A isn't accelerating at all
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18:56:53 <alise> aA should be (0,0)
18:57:00 <alise> because A has a constant velocity of (0,1).
18:57:56 <alise> = A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) - A(t)
18:57:56 <alise> = A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) - A(t)
18:58:01 <oerjan> the acceleration should be A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) + A(t)
18:58:12 <oerjan> assuming i remember my finite differences right
18:58:16 <alise> Let A(n) = (0,n+1). vA(t) = (0,t+2) - (0,t+1) = (0,1).
18:58:19 <alise> oerjan: so I got a step wrong then
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18:58:29 <alise> Delta f(x) = f(x+1) - f(x)
18:58:40 <alise> expands to A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) - A(t)
18:58:43 <alise> so I don't see how this is + A(t).
18:58:59 <oerjan> no, you are forgetting the -*- = + rule
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19:00:42 <pikhq> "I detected that you were trying to use your Internet service. Would you like me to help you? *unplug*"
19:01:24 <pikhq> In my Internet, dropping my packets.
19:01:53 <alise> oerjan: I have the ridiculous new derivation using your definition that A's acceleration is (0,-7)
19:01:57 <alise> Of course, I probably made another stupid error.
19:02:21 <oerjan> given that i already calculated it to be (0,0), i should think so
19:02:55 <alise> now i have it to be -1 :-)
19:03:00 <soupdragon> the mathematics taught in high school and college is fragmented, out of
19:03:27 <oerjan> aA = (0,3) - 2 (0,2) + (0,1) = 0
19:04:10 <alise> oerjan: http://pastie.org/961806.txt?key=rordooczee0nr3qggjgxnq
19:04:15 <alise> what should we call the difference of speed?
19:04:27 <alise> and then, after that, we can consider the Awful Question: how do we start getting some relativity into this base?
19:04:41 <alise> whoops i made another error
19:04:43 <alise> aA(t) = (0,t+3) - 2 (0,t+2) + (0,t+1)
19:04:43 <alise> = (0, (t+3) - (t+2) + (t+1))
19:04:48 <alise> should be 2(t+2) there of course
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19:06:36 <oerjan> you might want to write = A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) -^H+ A(t) as = (A(t+2) - A(t+1)) - (A(t+1) - A(t)) for clarity
19:07:14 <alise> write it as the incorrect form for clarity?
19:07:27 <oerjan> no the latter is correct
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19:07:31 <pikhq_> It seems my Internet has decided to have greater instability. Wonderful.
19:07:33 <alise> I am so immensely confused now
19:07:37 <oerjan> you still have it wrong on that page though
19:07:41 <alise> oerjan: so what /should/ we call the difference of speed across generations
19:07:46 <oerjan> (the intermediate calculation)
19:08:08 <oerjan> all i know is that the derivative of acceleration is sometimes called jerk
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19:08:41 <alise> oerjan: it annoys me that velocity and speed are denoted by bold/italic function names
19:08:45 <alise> how the hell should we write that out?
19:09:56 <oerjan> vectors are sometimes bold, and measured quantities are usually italic
19:10:14 <alise> sA(t) = A(t+1) D A(t)
19:10:25 <AnMaster> alise, I always wrote vectors underlined
19:10:34 <alise> is it displacement?
19:10:48 <AnMaster> that is how I learnt to write vectors
19:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> That's because in ye times of yore you indicated bold for printers that way.
19:10:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, a newly defined operator I think
19:10:58 <alise> oerjan: taxicab distance
19:11:05 <alise> so, treat it as just distance for analogy to regular terms
19:11:50 <oerjan> well looks like as good a candidate for speed as any
19:12:15 <alise> I'm trying to analogise with standard kinematics, though
19:12:30 <alise> velocity is vector and speed is scalar...
19:12:42 <alise> I am pretty sure it is displacement
19:13:38 <oerjan> since you use 1 as your time difference most of the time
19:14:04 <alise> which would you call it?
19:14:06 <alise> speed or displacement?
19:14:16 <alise> I guess, in a way, it is speed since we can't "finite integrate" v to get s
19:15:02 <alise> http://pastie.org/961819.txt?key=esgkaovh9wc6mi1yy0sjtg
19:15:05 <alise> here is the current state of play
19:15:06 <oerjan> A(t+2) D A(t) would be a displacement with a different time interval
19:15:14 <alise> discrete, finite trivial physics
19:15:24 <alise> now we need to make it relativistic in some way
19:15:28 <alise> *cough* *pokes oerjan*
19:15:55 <oerjan> well for a start the relative velocity is completely wrong
19:16:28 <oerjan> also when doing special relativity you really want spacetime vectors
19:16:43 <alise> v(A rel B)(t) = vA(t) - vB(t)
19:16:43 <alise> = (A(t+1) - A(t)) - (B(t+1) - B(t))
19:16:49 <alise> I realised it was wrong in a different way too
19:16:53 <alise> (need to swap the + in)
19:17:18 <alise> that seems hard to adapt this to, though
19:17:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: latest: http://pastie.org/961821.txt?key=evbqznopsmamodomdr6yaa
19:19:08 <alise> oerjan: one thing I note is that we can't allow particles to be arbitrary functions
19:19:15 <alise> or we can have particles sight-seeing by blipping to random locations
19:19:24 <alise> which is why A(t+1) must be the CA-defined heir of A(t)
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19:20:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Irrelevant.
19:20:38 <alise> The CA must define neighbourhoods, and successors based on these neighbourhoods.
19:20:43 <alise> Note that only alive particles have heirs and the like.
19:20:46 <alise> Dead particles are just vacuum.
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19:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> What are spacetime vectors? A 3D vector with time being one of the components.
19:27:41 <alise> I wonder what physics we can define for CAs using these definitions already.
19:27:56 <oerjan> now the spacetime distance between (x1,y1,t1) and (x2,y2,t2) is ((x1,y1)D(y1,y2))^2 - (t1-t2)^2
19:28:12 <oerjan> might put in a c there if it's not 1
19:28:26 <oerjan> also i'm not sure if taxicab distance in space is a good thing
19:28:39 <oerjan> we certainly cannot use for the whole of spacetime, i think
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19:32:15 <oerjan> um well if there is a taxicab relativity i don't know about it :D
19:33:27 <oerjan> hm well i guess the problem is that taxicab metrics have very few invariant transformations
19:34:03 <alise> i wasn't the one who thought of using taxicab
19:34:06 <oerjan> you basically _have_ to map an axis to an axis
19:35:22 <alise> oerjan: so we should use Euclidean distance?
19:35:28 <alise> but it requires reals...
19:35:32 <alise> we don't /have/ reals
19:35:49 <oerjan> oh i forgot a square root up there
19:36:09 <oerjan> however if we _don't_ take the square root, we don't need reals
19:36:24 <alise> oerjan: dose that ... work?
19:37:22 <alise> (a,b) D (c,d) = sqrt((a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2)
19:37:24 <alise> so you are proposing
19:37:26 <alise> (a,b) D (c,d) = (a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2
19:37:30 <alise> does this even make any sense???
19:38:04 <alise> oerjan: i mean, let's put it this way, we at least need an abs around the whole thing
19:38:08 <alise> (a,b) D (c,d) = |(a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2|
19:38:19 <AnMaster> <alise> i wasn't the one who thought of using taxicab <-- I suggested taxicab as an alternative iirc. Plus it allowed us to have integer distances
19:38:21 <oerjan> erm it's always positive
19:38:30 <alise> granted. now explain how on earth it makes sense
19:38:35 <AnMaster> alise, I also mentioned that we could do straight line
19:38:56 <oerjan> ok it doesn't make sense, satisfied? ;D
19:39:01 <AnMaster> alise, but that was shot down iirc by you or Phantom_Hoover for not doing integer
19:39:03 <alise> oerjan: no but could we use it as a metric?
19:39:28 <oerjan> we want the metric to preserve scalar multiplication, i should think
19:39:52 <oerjan> multiplication with a scalar
19:40:17 <alise> there clearly needs to be an Online Repository of Distance Metrics.
19:40:23 <oerjan> anyway even if our coordinates are integers, our distances don't have to be
19:40:48 <alise> or at least rationals
19:41:05 <alise> because one, it'd be nice to compute this, and two, it does not make sense to travel a real distance in discrete space!!
19:42:39 <oerjan> well i don't know how this should work anyway, except that there should be _some_ lorentz transformations ;)
19:42:57 <alise> anyway (a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2 isn't even a distance metric
19:43:02 <alise> it doesn't obey the triangle equality
19:44:01 <alise> we're talking about (a,b)D(c,d) here
19:44:01 <soupdragon> so what's a counter-example to the triangle law?
19:44:31 <alise> ok um actually i just used the wrong mathematica command to try and decide it :D
19:46:30 <alise> In[26]:= ForAll[{x0, x1, y0, y1, z0, z1},
19:46:31 <alise> dist[{x0, x1}, {z0, z1}] <=
19:46:31 <alise> dist[{x0, x1}, {y0, y1}] + dist[{y0, y1}, {z0, z1}]]
19:46:31 <alise> \*SubscriptBox[\(\[ForAll]\), \({x0, x1, y0, y1, z0, z1}\)]\(
19:46:32 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x0 - z0)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:34 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x1 - z1)\), \(2\)] <=
19:46:36 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x0 - y0)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:38 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x1 - y1)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:40 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((y0 - z0)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:42 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((y1 - z1)\), \(2\)]\)\)
19:46:44 <alise> In[27]:= Resolve[%, Integers]
19:46:53 <oerjan> (0,0)D(1,0) = 1, (1,0)D(2,0) = 1, (0,0)D(2,0) = 4 Q.E.D.
19:47:12 <alise> what mathematica is saying soupdragon is that /no/ pairs obey that law :-D
19:47:44 <oerjan> um that's incorrect, (0,0), (1,0) and (1,1) do obey it
19:47:52 <alise> # The British Rail metric (also called the Post Office metric or the SNCF metric) on a normed vector space is given by d(x, y) = ||x|| + ||y|| for distinct points x and y, and d(x, x) = 0. More generally ||.|| can be replaced with a function f taking an arbitrary set S to non-negative reals and taking the value 0 at most once: then the metric is defined on S by d(x, y)=f(x)+f(y) for distinct points x and y, and d(x, x) = 0. The name alludes to the tendency
19:47:52 <alise> of railway journeys (or letters) to proceed via London (or Paris) irrespective of their final destination.
19:47:54 <alise> Let's use that, then! :P
19:48:00 <alise> oerjan: well mathematica is dumb
19:48:56 <oerjan> also unreadable *ducks*
19:49:16 <alise> well the output text was obviously rendered more nicely on screen...
19:49:51 <oerjan> rail metric = taxicab, surely
19:50:43 <alise> taxicab(p,q) = ||p-q||_1
19:50:53 <alise> rail(p,q) = ||p||+||q|| if p<>q; 0 otherwise
19:50:59 <ws> rail metric could be 'river metric' I guess
19:51:08 <alise> of course the rail metric is ever so slightly ridiculous
19:51:24 <ws> no, wrong again, it's not the river one
19:51:57 <alise> oerjan: Clearly what we need to define is finite square root.
19:52:34 <oerjan> well we did use floor(sqrt(x)) in a previous discussion recently
19:52:47 <alise> Pah, that's like saying the ... floor... of the derivative is the finite derivative.
19:53:50 <alise> oerjan: How's this for a distance metric, (a,b)D(c,d) = |(a-c)*(b-d)|
19:54:03 <alise> Note: May not actually obey any relevant laws
19:55:06 <ws> what is it that you're looking for, btw.?
19:55:22 <ws> a metric on Z^2 with values in Z+?
19:55:48 <oerjan> it just doesn't really work for the purpose :D
19:56:05 <oerjan> another one btw is max(|a-c|,|b-d|)
19:56:16 <AnMaster> I went away for a bit and we had screens and screens of stuff :P
19:56:26 <oerjan> (corresponding to L^infinity like taxicab corresponds to L^1)
19:56:37 <alise> ws: that we can do relativity with nicely
19:56:55 <alise> oerjan: so /does/ |(a-c)*(b-d)| violate any laws? :D
19:57:25 <oerjan> THE UNIVERSE _IS_ A GIANT SQUARE CA DAMMIT AND WE'LL PROVE IT BY SQUEEZING RELATIVITY INTO IT
19:57:40 <oerjan> alise: almost certainly
19:57:44 <alise> and quantum mechanics ... (... eep)
19:57:54 <alise> [oerjan runs away screaming]
19:58:11 <ws> alise: it zeroes too much ;-)
19:58:14 <oerjan> (ANY PROBLEMS WITH DIMENSION WILL BE SOLVED VIA THE HOLOGRAPHIC PRINCIPLE)
19:58:25 <alise> ws: you zero too much!
19:58:38 <ws> alise: a metric should zero iff these pairs are equal
19:59:14 <oerjan> yes, miraculously absolute value distributes over multiplication
19:59:23 <alise> oerjan: SHUT UP :D
19:59:31 <alise> i'm in silly mode not think mode
19:59:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WE HAVE NO CLUE
20:00:04 <alise> ok what about floor(|a-c|/|b-d| + |b-d|/|a-c|)
20:00:12 <alise> where x/0 is defined to be, uh, 0
20:00:19 <AnMaster> <alise> and quantum mechanics ... (... eep) <-- can we do that after we got general relativity done?
20:00:24 <alise> AnMaster: PROBABLY NOT
20:00:30 <AnMaster> which we will do after we have special relativity done
20:00:39 <AnMaster> alise, ah, so we won't ever get there?
20:00:53 <alise> considering that "discrete quantum mechanics" is the most hilarious lunacy ever dreamt of
20:01:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well. many worlds!
20:01:19 <alise> SPACE IS FOUR-DIMENSIONAL, FOUR-SIDED CELLULAR AUTOMATON; ONE SIDE IS TIME
20:01:29 <alise> AND THE OTHERS EXPERIENCE TIME-EFFECTS FROM IT
20:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: It's nondeterministic as to which world we go into.
20:01:35 <alise> TIME CUBE IS DISCRETE QUANTUM MECHANICS WTF
20:01:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: just list them all :D
20:02:16 <alise> soupdragon: but time cube is!
20:02:20 <alise> and time cube IS platonic space!
20:02:34 <oerjan> hey discrete quantum mechanics is not that lunatic, spin operators are discrete after all iirc
20:03:18 <AnMaster> alise, you want discrete string theory
20:03:19 <alise> a /very/ small fourth dimension :D
20:03:23 <AnMaster> which I think is a contradiction
20:03:35 <alise> Discrete... string... theory?
20:03:37 <AnMaster> it is way above my head, string theory I mean
20:03:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: may be his discovery, i don't recall
20:03:40 <alise> So are the strings just badly interpolated lines?
20:04:08 <soupdragon> if your string theory claims 11 or 26 dimensions then sorry but it's _Wrong_
20:04:12 <alise> soupdragon: I see; your proof?
20:04:19 <AnMaster> soupdragon, where is your proof of this
20:04:23 <alise> Or is this along the lines of your amazing proof "Plants grow; therefore god exists".
20:04:30 <alise> (if anyone wasn't there: I'm not exaggerating, he said exactly this)
20:04:55 <soupdragon> can you build a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect? No you can't QED
20:05:04 <oerjan> discrete string theory would be like little rosaries, right...
20:05:23 <alise> soupdragon: OH MY WORD! All the string physicists missed that completely!
20:05:26 <alise> I'll tell them right now
20:05:31 <alise> Just did so, they've decided to abandon it
20:05:35 <alise> How did they miss that?
20:05:56 <soupdragon> ^ since he can't form a valid counterrargument...
20:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so what does the self-intersection of Klein bottles have to do with the number of space dimensions?
20:06:34 <oerjan> count-err-arguments, the most common type on the internet
20:07:28 <alise> soupdragon really believes he has disproved string theory in the strongest sense by stating "you can't build a klein bottle that doesn't intersect"
20:07:34 <alise> ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing true insanity
20:07:46 <soupdragon> ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing ad hominem
20:07:53 <oerjan> well either that or true (but lousy) trolling
20:08:02 <soupdragon> since you know I'm right, but you can't admit defeat you're just doing this
20:08:20 <alise> you are funny soupdragon, i think you would make a fun pet
20:08:23 <alise> like i could go around saying things
20:08:28 <alise> and you'd always make me laugh by saying something incomprehensible
20:08:38 <soupdragon> study the topology of klien bottle i fyou don't understand my proof
20:08:39 <alise> that is what pets are for
20:09:09 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> can you build a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect? No you can't QED <-- not with current technology
20:09:17 <AnMaster> which isn't same as "in theory"
20:09:22 <soupdragon> AnMaster, not with any technology ever -- it's a fundametal fact of the universe
20:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> soupdragon: State, concisely, why the self-intersection of a Klein bottle precludes there being more than 3 space dimensions?
20:09:57 <alise> AnMaster: well what you are saying does not make much sense.
20:10:03 <alise> AnMaster: but that is not why he is wrong
20:10:31 <soupdragon> The smallest number of dimensions you can immerse a klien bottle in is 4
20:10:45 <alise> THE CALABI-YAU MANIFOLD IS EDUCATED EVIL
20:10:51 <AnMaster> soupdragon, ever heard of flatland?
20:11:29 <oerjan> soupdragon: incorrect, the klein bottle can be immersed in 3 dimensions
20:11:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_(mathematics)
20:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> We can't construct non-intersecting Klein bottles, so we can't have 4D spacce.
20:11:59 <soupdragon> oh yes oerjan, that's right I used the wrong word
20:14:04 <soupdragon> it should be easy to see that the self intersection can be remedied by pulling that handle out through 4D
20:14:15 <soupdragon> topologically you can prove this is not possible in jsut 3D
20:14:43 <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect
20:16:31 <oerjan> the rest of the sentence disappeared into the 23rd dimension
20:16:46 <alise> `addquote <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
20:16:48 <HackEgo> 159|<soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
20:16:53 <alise> Insanity too amazing not to preserve.
20:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Look, soupdragon, if you can't see why you're wrong, I can't be bothered.
20:17:23 <soupdragon> Phantom_Hoover, I give up.. what's the fourth dimension?
20:17:30 <alise> Firstly, the repeated misspelling of Klein; secondly, the patently incorrect application of burden of proof; and thirdly, jesus christ on a freaking pogo stick man.
20:18:09 <soupdragon> umm invisible dragon in the garage much?
20:18:22 <alise> soupdragon: you do realise that burden of proof NEVER implies anything is false?
20:18:29 <alise> just that we don't have to consider it? you stated it was /false/ outright
20:18:39 <alise> we can make predictions about these spaces with a coherent theory of them
20:18:44 <alise> it's just that we can't decide on one :-)
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20:20:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:21:20 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:21:28 <HackEgo> 97|<fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
20:21:43 <HackEgo> 66|<Aftran> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
20:23:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:23:29 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
20:23:50 <oerjan> fortunately it was a first floor window.
20:23:52 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.19787 \ wunderbar_emporium
20:24:26 <oerjan> Deewiant: YOU STINKING LIAR
20:24:45 <oerjan> also, i may have meant basement.
20:24:53 <oerjan> or is that ground floor
20:24:54 <Deewiant> If the quote'd been any longer it'd've clarified that
20:25:24 <HackEgo> * the lowermost portion of a structure partly or wholly below ground level; often used for storage \ * the ground floor facade or interior in Renaissance architecture \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:25:40 <oerjan> i guess jumping out a basement window would not be that impressive.
20:25:53 <oerjan> or maybe it would, just in the wrong kind of way.
20:27:03 <oerjan> nah you'd be swallowed by the black hole in the center.
20:27:34 <oerjan> the one at the center of the earth
20:27:40 <AnMaster> okay I went away for another bit
20:27:50 <AnMaster> so what did you end up with for the CA?
20:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Which log has soupdragon saying that plants growing proves God?
20:28:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not sure
20:28:30 <alise> use "grep --crazy"
20:28:59 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> use "grep --crazy"
20:29:03 <HackEgo> 160|<alise> use "grep --crazy"
20:30:11 <alise> about 50 megs because of minimum file size iirc
20:31:00 <AnMaster> alise, well you don't download a block of zeros
20:31:05 <AnMaster> and that is the important bit here
20:31:11 <AnMaster> you only download actual file size
20:31:17 <alise> Let Delta^h f(x) = (f(x+h) - f(x))/h.
20:31:17 <AnMaster> sure on disk it will be larger
20:31:37 <alise> Let Delta^Sigma f(x) = lim k->inf (sum h=0 to k, Delta^h f(x))/k
20:31:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, create a fake robots.txt and tell wget to not refetch files
20:31:52 <alise> then Delta^Sigma -- I'll abbreviate DS --
20:32:04 -!- ws has quit (Quit: [BX] Been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding.).
20:32:07 <alise> DS (x^2) = infinity
20:32:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, just download Gregor's hg repo with the logs in
20:32:45 <AnMaster> he will love you wasting his bw like that
20:33:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I could grep my logs, which go back about a year (older archives on cd)
20:33:13 <alise> lim k->inf (2^x log(2) - i 2^x (-i H_k - i 2^(k+1) Phi(2,1,k+1) + pi))/k
20:33:25 <AnMaster> it will take a while because it is lzma compressed (or bzip2 for older ones)
20:33:25 <alise> So, yeah, I think it's safe to coin DS "Fucked-Up Derivative".
20:33:38 <alise> Or, Limit Sum Derivative; LSD.
20:33:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what phrase should I grep on?
20:34:08 <alise> AnMaster: grep plant | grep grow
20:34:23 <alise> grep plant 10.* | grep grow
20:34:31 <pikhq_> A "mere" 21% packet loss, but I can't get any freaking Internet connectivity.
20:34:44 <pikhq_> Anyone got an IP over ICMP tunneling scheme?
20:34:57 <AnMaster> alise, no relevant hits from 2010
20:35:04 <alise> The LSD of (-1^x) = 0
20:35:17 <AnMaster> that is, just uorygl oklopol and fax
20:35:18 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
20:35:23 <alise> AnMaster: fax = soupdragon
20:35:36 <AnMaster> 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:36:31 <fax>watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it
20:35:36 <AnMaster> 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:50:08 <fax>oklopol: I can prove god exists: You can see a plant grow
20:35:37 <alise> <alise> Let Delta^h f(x) = (f(x+h) - f(x))/h.
20:35:37 <pikhq> And no, not making that up. Anyone got an IP over ICMP tunneling scheme handy?
20:35:37 <alise> <alise> Let Delta^Sigma f(x) = lim k->inf (sum h=0 to k, Delta^h f(x))/k
20:35:44 <alise> Delta^Sigma is the LSD, Limit Sigma Derivative.
20:35:46 <lament> Objectivism states that "Existence exists" and "Existence is Identity." To be is to be "an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes." That which has no attributes does not and cannot exist. Hence, the axiom of identity: a thing is what it is.
20:36:00 <alise> LSD (x^2) = undefined
20:36:05 <alise> LSD (2^x) = lim k->inf (2^x log(2) - i 2^x (-i H_k - i 2^(k+1) Phi(2,1,k+1) + pi))/k
20:36:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, note: dates there are either UTC or CET/CEST
20:36:32 <alise> I suspect LSD (2^x) is undefined
20:36:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so it may be one day off compared to clog
20:36:37 <alise> but like hell am i gonna work it out
20:36:46 <AnMaster> can't be arsed to calculate which direction
20:36:54 <oerjan> lament: that fit quite well into the surrounding insanity
20:37:51 <alise> what kind of LSD is this!
20:37:59 <oerjan> the kind that reduces INT
20:38:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it says in that line
20:38:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the logs are rotated monthly
20:39:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, "<AnMaster> 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:36:31 <fax> watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it" <-- "apr 25"
20:39:31 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I think it is Swedish date format for some unknown reason
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20:40:37 <alise> <oerjan> the kind that reduces INT
20:40:39 <alise> what did you mean here :P
20:41:08 <AnMaster> alise, well if you reduce INT you would end up with NAT I guess
20:41:15 <oerjan> it was a pun attempt on integration and intelligence
20:41:35 <oerjan> slightly roleplaying inspired
20:41:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was just about to ask about that yeah
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20:42:55 <alise> it's funny how... silly LSD is.
20:43:05 <alise> I mean, the results seem almost random.
20:43:42 <Deewiant> Psychedelic drugs are like that
20:43:50 <alise> But it's just A = (f(x+1)-f(x) / 1) + (f(x+2)-f(x) / 2) + (f(x+3)-f(x) / 3) + ...
20:44:03 <alise> then basically the limit as k->inf of k terms of A / k
20:44:12 <alise> I guess it's because it's the difference "in the large"
20:45:56 <Gregor> AnMaster: Sorry, my home computer (and so my logging) is down :P
20:48:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:48:41 <Gregor> Anyway, hg clone https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ if you'd like.
20:48:45 <Gregor> It'll be a while though :P
20:48:55 <Gregor> Once I do that myself, I'll update them to today.
20:51:24 <alise> I was writing a script to keep a log archive up-to-date, rename files to YYYY-MM-DD, and make the times UTC (including wrapping to other files)
20:51:30 <alise> But I got bored at the wrapping-to-files bit.
20:52:10 <Gregor> There, it's up to date.
20:52:33 <Gregor> Erm, it will be once I hg push :P
20:52:39 <Gregor> Now what silly username/password did I use here >_>
20:52:49 <fizzie> My personal logs are in a PostgreSQL database, but they're not quite as comprehensive.
20:53:04 <oerjan> Gregor: "snugglebunnies"
20:53:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:01 <Gregor> 10.02.13:21:12:29 <oerjan> `google snugglebunnies
20:55:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:55:20 * oerjan thought for a moment Gregor had somehow utterly failed to give HackEgo a command
20:55:42 <Gregor> No, just snugglebunny-grepping :P
20:55:56 <Gregor> <somebody> I'll grep YOUR snugglebunny
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20:57:26 <oerjan> that doesn't really make sense with an _actual_ innuendo, does it.
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21:00:33 <AnMaster> I mean it doesn't make sense but why is that an issue
21:00:40 <oerjan> because the whole point is to point out an unintended innuendo
21:00:46 <AnMaster> alise, gave up on the relativistic CA yet?
21:01:23 <alise> Its velocity is 0!
21:01:58 <AnMaster> alise, link to last version though?
21:02:30 <alise> http://pastie.org/961891.txt?key=iqkvno8jakp5xeyub3mkq
21:02:38 <alise> oerjan: and sqrt(0) (not 0!)
21:02:52 <oerjan> why of course, 0! is 1
21:03:16 <oerjan> why do you think i carefully added spaces
21:04:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
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21:06:06 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-02-04-beartato-popcorn.gif
21:07:47 <oerjan> the attack of the killer zombie maize
21:08:10 <alise> (Suggested dessert: http://nedroid.com/imagesb/beartato-ridiculousbeliefsb.gif)
21:12:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:12:13 <oerjan> yeah everyone knows the earth revolves around me!
21:12:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:13:16 <alise> clearly we just need to bend the grid in funny ways.
21:13:17 <oerjan> (that was about the "No, me!" not the cas.)
21:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: How does the concept of curvature apply to discrete spacetime?
21:14:10 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:14:12 <alise> it doesn't, we bend the image on screen
21:14:32 <oerjan> you mean we bend the screen
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21:19:59 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:20:11 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> CAS. LET US RELATIVISE THEM. <-- what? Relativistic computer algebra systems?
21:20:24 <oerjan> that might also be cool.
21:20:30 * augur pounces soupdragon
21:20:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh did you mean CAs?
21:21:05 <nooga> i'd like to be an artist and paint pictures
21:21:07 <augur> hows it goooin soup?
21:21:48 <soupdragon> jutst watching quantum physics on youtube
21:22:57 <oerjan> augur: i am not entirely sure if soupdragon is a master troll or if alise is a master at being (or pretending to be) trolled
21:23:17 <augur> oerjan: meh. i dont care. soup has some interesting in theoretical linguistics
21:23:27 <alise> hey i've been laughing at him not getting angry
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21:23:38 <alise> Aww, a budding romance.
21:23:55 <alise> I hope augur is a proponent of the three-dimensions-ONLY plants-imply-God theory.
21:24:11 <AnMaster> soupdragon, ah you need a converter box? Like between dvi/vga or usb/serial
21:24:13 <alise> Hell, I'm sure you could square the circle
21:24:18 <oerjan> clearly _four_-dimension plants would be the work of the devil
21:24:35 <augur> what? she said square ped
21:25:12 <alise> `addquote * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
21:25:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:25:17 <HackEgo> 161|* augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
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21:26:02 <soupdragon> I really have no clue what this guy is talking about.. somethign to do with molecular configuartions
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21:26:57 <augur> im reading a book called Anarchy Works
21:28:02 <alise> AnMaster: Maybe it's like Microsoft Works.
21:28:11 <oerjan> hm wiktionary has only the plural meaning
21:28:14 <alise> (But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss anarchy with a "doubt".)
21:28:22 <augur> its a pretty good book
21:28:25 <augur> and it has no copyright
21:28:40 <alise> Fishes, are also not copyrighted.
21:28:52 <AnMaster> alise, well, the issue with it is bullies. Well.. one of the issues
21:29:02 <AnMaster> basically anarchy is nice utopia sure
21:29:06 <alise> The issue with communism is people won't come to work!
21:29:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm wiktionary doesn't have aster except as a broken link from the english
21:29:14 <alise> You can make bad critiques of incredibly naive versions of ANY theory.
21:29:16 <AnMaster> alise, one of the issues maybe
21:29:31 <alise> The issue with capitalism is that corporations will just go around KILLING everyone for PROFIT!
21:29:36 <oerjan> it has astra though, which is stars
21:29:40 <augur> AnMaster: you should read this book
21:29:42 <alise> I'll repeat again: <alise> You can make bad critiques of incredibly naive versions of ANY theory.
21:29:55 <AnMaster> alise, you said this yourself some time ago though
21:30:13 <augur> the point of it is to go through example after example of why anarchy /can/ work and /can/ be stable
21:30:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: -a plural would normally be neuter... but aster doesn't look neuter. and wiktionary gives no gender.
21:31:46 <oerjan> the original greek is masculine and has no -a (or alpha) in sight
21:31:49 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81
21:32:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:32:44 * oerjan doesn't know greek grammar
21:33:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway i was just mangling two latin phrases together
21:33:24 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:35:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh hm it can _also_ be neuter in greek, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD
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21:36:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/astrum
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21:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I think it would be better to redefine the speed of light in Life as c/1.
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21:46:13 <alise> So that gliders move at lightspeed?
21:46:16 <pikhq> s|c/1|c/2|, you mean.
21:46:18 <alise> Moving at lightspeed shouldn't be possible.
21:46:59 <pikhq> Hmm. Seem to recall a "faster-than-lightspeed" hack. :P
21:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that there are theoretical ways for us to go FTL if there is already infrastructure in place, it seems appropriate.
21:48:42 <alise> Nothing can go /faster/.
21:48:51 <alise> But nothing should go /as fast/, except light; and GoL has no light, or at least it is implicit.
21:48:59 <alise> So it should be c/3.
21:49:10 <alise> pikhq: It doesn't work; it's an illusion.
21:49:25 <alise> augur: is that book ancap?
21:49:29 <alise> or regular anarchism
21:49:32 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that's called scare quotes.
21:50:22 <augur> alise: it's probably more socialist anarchism but its got a fairly broad array of ideas. one of its examples is of this multinational corporation that runs on strong anti-authoritarian principles
21:50:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:45 <alise> Corporations are a kind of authority, really.
21:50:59 -!- alise has left (?).
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21:51:23 <alise> <augur> alise: it's probably more socialist anarchism but its got a fairly broad array of ideas. one of its examples is of this multinational corporation that runs on strong anti-authoritarian principles
21:51:23 <alise> * augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:51:23 <alise> <alise> Corporations are a kind of authority, really.
21:51:34 <augur> oh they are, definitely
21:51:48 <augur> but that wasnt the point of the example :p
21:52:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: iirc the c/2 limit for life is only for _spaceships_. chaotic disturbances like long lines can travel at c proper.
21:52:13 <augur> there's also certainly quite a bit anti-capitalist rhetoric, but it's aimed towwards capitalism qua contemporary evils of capitalism
21:52:24 <alise> augur: Was the corporation in question presented as a co-operative?
21:52:27 <augur> not capitalism qua individualist free association sort of markets
21:52:35 <alise> That's the least authoritarian form of corporation I know; and it works in practice.
21:52:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Yup, seen that, and not even as a hack.
21:53:07 <augur> alise: no, its Gore and Associates, a fluoropolymer R&D/manufacturing company
21:53:25 <alise> (Evidence: http://hcoop.net/, http://tech.coop/, and, oh, one of the biggest supermarkets/"other stuffs" in Britain.)
21:53:31 <alise> augur: oh, I thought it was a hypothetical
21:53:45 <augur> thats the intent of the example
21:53:56 <alise> Co-operatives are awesome, incidentally.
21:53:57 <augur> its a real corporation that does real corporation stuff but has no hierarchical management
21:54:09 <augur> the whole book is nothing but examples of anarchy working
21:54:16 <augur> for all the things people say it cant work for
21:55:01 <alise> YOU COULDN'T SHOWER WITHOUT AUTHORITY
21:55:38 <alise> pikhq: use EgoBot as a proxy
21:55:56 * pikhq wants bandwidth not measured in bits per second
22:00:33 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> s/c/1/c/2/ <-- broken
22:01:51 -!- coppro has joined.
22:02:25 <alise> Also known as coppro.
22:03:51 <pikhq> awehsddns;klfgbhhdssbjsdhfjkosadhnjvbkoxfncjh;
22:04:09 <uorygl> Yeah, now that I think of it, that does look like the Greek word "kopros".
22:04:15 <pikhq> DAMMIT GIVE ME MORE THAN 5 PACKETTS PER SECOND
22:04:28 <uorygl> Number of packets doesn't really matter as long as they're big enough.
22:04:49 <pikhq> uorygl: Except that packets can't be big enough.
22:04:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: just some shit
22:05:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, and you said modem was slower?
22:05:16 <uorygl> Yes, it means poop or crap or shit or dung or feces or excrement or BM.
22:05:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: In the past, it was.
22:05:32 <alise> oerjan: nothing /exceeds/ c in GoL though right? :D
22:05:39 <alise> there's no pathological pattern :-P
22:05:46 <pikhq> Currently, semaphore would be faster.
22:05:46 <uorygl> Manure, there's another word.
22:05:51 <oerjan> alise: erm of course not
22:05:55 <alise> oerjan: i was joking
22:06:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it really 5 packets per second?
22:06:29 <AnMaster> I think that is still slower than semaphore
22:06:42 <uorygl> pikhq: packets can be arbitrarily large in IPv6!
22:06:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Less* currently.
22:06:47 <oerjan> alise: hm could be fun to put that as an easter egg in a gol program
22:06:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, since a packet can contain a lot more than one bit
22:06:53 <pikhq> uorygl: Pity I don't have IPv6!
22:07:00 <oerjan> say, a pacman pattern really speeding along
22:07:06 <AnMaster> uorygl, it is still limited by physical MTU isn't it?
22:07:27 <uorygl> I should learn what MTU is.
22:07:38 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_transmission_unit
22:07:41 <alise> oerjan: hey can we use chaotic lines and stuff to do >c/2 communication in GoL?
22:07:46 <alise> you don't /have/ to use gliders to communicate, surely
22:08:10 <AnMaster> alise, the issue with doing communication with them is that they are, uh, chaotic
22:08:15 <uorygl> You don't have to use gliders to communicate, but with the appropriate GoL program, gliders are as fast as anything.
22:08:20 <alise> well they're not /that/ chaotic
22:08:24 <alise> uorygl: not in-universe
22:08:45 <uorygl> Well, do we really care about in-universe speed?
22:08:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Are there any =c?
22:08:53 <AnMaster> alise, there are space fillers too, they are faster iirc?
22:09:04 <alise> AnMaster: they fill space at c/4 or something
22:09:06 <pikhq> uorygl: It's the only meaningful notion of speed *in* Game of Life!
22:09:10 <alise> but we don't need to fill space
22:09:13 <alise> we need to communicate
22:09:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wut
22:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's a blip which travels through an agar at c.
22:09:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah!
22:09:38 <alise> No, but I can get it in a pinch.
22:09:59 <uorygl> An agar is a pattern that tiles the entire plane.
22:10:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, I mean, a regular pattern of *** would fit it then
22:10:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the one I mentioned?
22:11:06 <uorygl> There's not too much reason not to consider that an agar.
22:11:09 <AnMaster> too tired to work out minimum distance
22:11:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So you clearly know a bit about GoL, huh.
22:11:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so why doesn't it count ... it seems strange
22:11:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What is the lightspeed telegraph?
22:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a system that sends a signal along a stretched, regular line of beehives at C.
22:12:35 <alise> plenty of things move =c in life
22:12:40 <alise> and others merely >c/2
22:12:47 <alise> well not move, but have effects at
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:49 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:49 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:49 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU
22:12:50 <AnMaster> alise, what about non-cardinal gliders? don't they move faster than cardinal ones? Or was that for space ships
22:12:52 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:52 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:52 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU
22:12:54 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:54 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:56 <alise> soupdragon is seriously fucking unstable
22:13:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you job as an op there please :)
22:13:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:13:08 <alise> seriously just ban her until she, I don't know, stops being crazy???
22:13:14 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/fax.
22:13:20 <alise> like maybe a notch down from completely crazy would do
22:13:22 <alise> AnMaster: transgender
22:13:53 <alise> she's not the first transgendered person we've had here...
22:14:03 <pikhq> This boot, I have gotten 5.4 MiB of data.
22:14:03 <alise> although the other wasn't here for very long iirc
22:14:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what is the lightspeed telegraphhh
22:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a system that sends a signal along a stretched, regular line of beehives at C.
22:15:10 <alise> AnMaster: so what does "whatever" mean
22:15:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And I take it is impossible to have any c communication without a wire by definition.
22:15:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so why doesn't that pattern I suggested count as an agar?
22:15:42 <alise> AnMaster: I don't understand what you were trying to say.
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22:16:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I take it that Eric Weisstein's Treature Trove of the Game of Life is not the most up-to-date infosource?
22:16:08 <alise> It doesn't have the lightspeed telegraph.
22:16:21 -!- cahill has joined.
22:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I can imagine a really long superstring would transmit through vacuum, but it'd destroy your transmitter and probably the receiver, too.
22:16:42 <uorygl> AnMaster: because the definition of an agar excludes it.
22:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There isn't really a central reference source, though LifeWiki is OK.
22:16:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, oh? how is it defined then
22:17:26 <uorygl> Something like "a pattern that tiles the plane and is not just a bunch of wicks or oscillators that don't interact".
22:17:47 <AnMaster> uorygl, it could be a static pattern, didn't Phantom_Hoover say that?
22:18:02 <uorygl> My definition doesn't exclude static patterns.
22:18:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, is the pattern allowed to extend itself, like a space-filler?
22:18:44 * cahill Discounts!! Our Special Limited Time Offers Up To May,22!!!New BranD!! Notebooks,Plasma and LCD TV's.Buy your electronic needs at our unique prices. Laptop Sony VAIO VGN-FW590FFD-575,57$!!!Apple MacBook Air MC234LL/A-695,27$!!! http://www.elplace.com/
22:18:45 -!- cahill has quit (K-Lined).
22:19:11 <uorygl> A wick is something that's periodic in one dimension only.
22:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And practical diagonal transmission at C is still elusive.
22:20:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how are the known ones impractical?
22:20:50 <uorygl> There's always the one-cell fuse. :P
22:21:08 <uorygl> Known c diagonal transmitters.
22:21:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you can transmit stuff at c diagonally, but the wire is destroyed.
22:21:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: link to something about the lightspeed telegraph?
22:22:06 <alise> I love the Game of Life it's so rich
22:22:06 <uorygl> Well, here's the lightspeed wire, which might be the same thing: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lightspeed_wire
22:22:16 <uorygl> It's a theorem that it's infinitely rich. :P
22:22:39 <alise> yeah but it's like
22:22:46 <alise> there are so many human-interesting-and-comprehendable interacting patterns
22:22:48 <alise> from such simple rules
22:22:50 <alise> and they're so pretty
22:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Jason Summers made it, and I think the LST is referenced in an article in the LW article.
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html
22:24:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:24:24 <alise> or rather, i see tons of them
22:25:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah cardinal as in befunge
22:25:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:25:40 <AnMaster> don't remember the difference between them
22:25:46 <uorygl> BEST SIGNAL EVER: http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/tags.gif
22:26:03 <alise> has anyone made some sort of theory of physics for GoL?
22:26:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, couldn't you have lightspeed-mostly wires btw?
22:26:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, as in, non-lightspeed only for turning corners and at the endpoints
22:26:33 <uorygl> alise: well, after studying it for a while, I've discovered that the entire Game of Life universe can be described by a few simple rules.
22:26:36 <AnMaster> but lightspeed for straight stretches
22:26:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:26:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, see what I mean?
22:26:43 <Sgeo> Why wasn't this on autojoin?
22:26:56 <Gregor> uorygl: Sarcasm is sarcastic.
22:26:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, should be reasonable enough I find
22:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Life signal circuitry in general is bloody complicated.
22:27:39 <alise> uorygl: No shit. :P
22:27:43 <alise> But I mean, something that builds on top of that.
22:27:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I quite prefer wireworld myself
22:27:50 <alise> To describe what "movement" is, since the primitive notions have none.
22:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything needs to be *exact*, or else it all blows up.
22:27:55 <AnMaster> found it a very interesting CA
22:28:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and not quite as sensitive
22:28:12 <alise> this lifewiki is amazing
22:28:43 <uorygl> http://google.com/search?q=lifewiki
22:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: This is why a relativistic CA is silly, because there's no inbuilt idea of speed or individual things.
22:28:54 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:29:27 * Sgeo has his computer tethered to his phone via USB, which is getting its Internet access from wifi
22:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It does what it was meant to do, and well, but that's it.
22:29:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:30:14 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't have infinite growth, or replication, or spaceships.
22:30:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, seen that computer in wireworld?
22:31:05 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spartan_universal_computer-constructor
22:31:17 <alise> The Game of Life is just amazing.
22:31:31 <alise> It's a computer that controls a universal constructor.
22:31:40 <alise> Well, not /quite/ universal, but a damn good constructor.
22:31:48 <alise> "Because the machine itself consists exclusively of still lifes with seven or fewer cells, a sufficient program tape would allow the machine to self-replicate forever."
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22:32:28 <uorygl> Have we yet invented Life computers that can store memory sanely? :)
22:32:44 <alise> There's a Turing machine in Life.
22:32:45 <Sgeo> Wireworld has a universal computer
22:32:52 <alise> Sgeo: does it construct?
22:33:04 <alise> It does look "real", though.
22:33:15 <alise> I meant does WireWorld's construct. I guessed not.
22:33:17 <uorygl> Wireworld has no constructors at all. :)
22:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Could you hook up the lightspeed telegraph to a memory store?
22:33:29 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure it's not possible for a wireworld system to build
22:34:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And input?
22:34:15 <alise> Can it be a lightspeed memory-access device?
22:34:37 <uorygl> Here's an idea. The space around your WireWorld circuit is Game of Life space. WireWorld-live cells act as live for Game of Life, but not vice versa. Once there are six live cells (of either type) surrounding a Game of Life cell, it becomes a dead WireWorld cell.
22:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Darn.
22:35:02 <alise> So you cannot build a lightspeed memory?
22:35:26 <uorygl> This also provides an obvious way of producing ROM, though ROM is probably less efficient than the memory you already have. :P
22:35:34 <Sgeo> "Wireworld-live" as in has a wire, or has an electron part?
22:35:40 <uorygl> Sgeo: has an electron part.
22:36:07 <AnMaster> <alise> Well, not /quite/ universal, but a damn good constructor. <-- you mean garden of eden patterns?
22:36:24 <uorygl> Universal constructors don't need to construct those!
22:36:30 <AnMaster> are there garden of eden still lifes btw?
22:36:51 <uorygl> That would be pretty awesome. :P
22:36:55 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I'd assume n.. right. How about GoE-like still lives, where the only parent is the pattern itself?
22:36:55 <AnMaster> but I mean, like garden of eden pattern, but can be directly reached from itself
22:37:09 <AnMaster> since obviously it must be reachable from itself to be a still life
22:37:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yeah what I said, same second
22:37:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:37:51 <Sgeo> I think I said it first
22:37:59 <uorygl> I sure don't know of any.
22:38:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:38:21 <uorygl> Anyway, we need a Verilog-to-GoL compiler.
22:38:23 <oerjan> that might possibly be even harder than a garden of eden pattern, since it would have to have only one parent _everywhere_, rather than having no parent _somewhere_, so to speak
22:38:24 <Sgeo> Let's check the logs!
22:38:32 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:38:40 <uorygl> A Verilog-or-VHDL-to-GoL compiler.
22:38:45 <Sgeo> Yep, I'm first
22:39:11 <uorygl> A Garden of Eden pattern only needs to be parentless in one physical location.
22:39:16 <uorygl> That will make the entire thing parentless.
22:39:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: a garden of eden pattern can easily contain _parts_ that would have multiple possible parents if the rest of the pattern had
22:39:41 <oerjan> and it might be that that is essential to make it all work
22:39:53 <uorygl> With a Garden of Eden still life, however, it can't have two parents anywhere; it must be only-one-parent everywhere.
22:39:56 * Sgeo wants a pattern that has no descendents!
22:40:22 * Phantom_Hoover notices that pentadecathlon.net is active as of April.
22:40:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, but as long as you can't get the whole eden still life?
22:40:35 <uorygl> There are patterns with no parents; therefore, by the pigeonhole principle, there are patterns with no children. :P
22:40:43 <AnMaster> if you have such parts it need to be unstable if any bit of it is removed
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22:40:52 <AnMaster> uorygl, no that doesn't follow
22:41:16 <AnMaster> uorygl, since we more than one pattern mapping to the same
22:41:26 <uorygl> Well, there you have it.
22:41:39 <uorygl> Two parents with only one child between them? Clearly, one of the parents is childless.
22:41:59 <AnMaster> but could there be patterns that are stable still lifes but can't be reached from any other configuration?
22:42:13 <oerjan> however on a finite space it _does_ follow that "there are patterns with no parents" <=> "there are patterns with more than one parent"
22:42:14 <AnMaster> uorygl, group sex or something ;P
22:42:26 <oerjan> (from the pigeonhole principle)
22:42:28 <uorygl> By that definition, all sex is group sex. :P
22:42:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, uorygl: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/images/9/9d/Grin_preblock_evolution.png
22:42:59 <oerjan> even that may not work for infinite space, in fact i think it doesn't
22:43:25 <Sgeo> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:43:32 <Sgeo> Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to www.conwaylife.com
22:43:38 <Sgeo> Oh, so it wasn't just me
22:44:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what is the difference between a glider and a spaceship
22:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> A glider is a specific spaceship, the first to be discovered.
22:45:10 <uorygl> A glider is a specific spaceship; it's the five-cell one moving diagonally at c/4.
22:45:41 <uorygl> It's spaceship 5-1-4. :P
22:45:49 <Sgeo> How do things like the Fast Forward thingy work?
22:46:06 <uorygl> Sgeo: by detecting the front end of a ship and, if it's there, applying the back end of a ship.
22:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It creates a LWSS regardless of whether it gets an input.
22:46:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: clearly a still life without any parent but itself must cover nearly the whole space
22:46:37 <oerjan> because otherwise you could put a single, dying pixel somewhere
22:47:00 <uorygl> Hmm, he has a point, there.
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22:47:15 <Sgeo> Ok, so let's look for GoE-like still lives in worlds of a finite size
22:47:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I excluded non-interacting patterns here
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22:47:59 <Sgeo> Or, better yet, let's do what AnMaster said
22:48:15 <uorygl> Maybe we should just consider unconstructible patterns in general.
22:48:17 <AnMaster> any interacting pattern must destroy it
22:48:53 <AnMaster> like if a glider approaches it can't be allowed to self-repair
22:49:08 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Freenode.
22:49:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is what I said -_-
22:49:40 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> like if a glider approaches it can't be allowed to self-repair <AnMaster> or just kill the glider
22:51:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but a glider passing a bit away (would it need 4 cells or such? not sure of exact distance) would be fine. As long as it didn't interact in any way with the pattern
22:51:08 <AnMaster> how large is the required margin for that?
22:51:30 <Sgeo> 2 cells empty space, I think
22:52:20 <uorygl> The AND NOT gate is universal, right?
22:52:49 <uorygl> No, I mean like p AND NOT q = p AND (NOT q)
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22:53:18 <Sgeo> and not != nand
22:53:55 <AnMaster> "and not" could sound like "and followed by not"
22:54:27 <AnMaster> after all you make an AND gate from a nand and an inverter normally (in CMOS at least)
22:54:38 <AnMaster> Sgeo, thus it was var from obvious
22:55:44 <uorygl> The great thing about WireWorld is that it's really easy to make a PRNG. :)
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22:56:15 <AnMaster> 1 & !(a & !(1 & !b)) <=> 1(a(1b'))' <=> (a1b)' <=> (ab)'
22:56:39 * uorygl stress-tests a certain AND NOT gate.
22:57:50 <uorygl> Hmm, I may be mistaken about the PRNG thing.
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22:59:16 <AnMaster> uorygl, challenge: construct a reversible gate in wireworld
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22:59:25 <AnMaster> which actually works if you send signals either way
22:59:43 <uorygl> Well, this one is kind of reversible.
23:00:01 <AnMaster> uorygl, so you can switch inputs with outputs?
23:00:04 <uorygl> Call this gate o <= p AND (NOT q).
23:00:13 <uorygl> It also works as q <= p AND (NOT o).
23:00:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, and does it have as many 1 in as out? Other thing required for a reversible one iirc
23:00:44 * Sgeo_2 wonders what's to blame for the lag
23:00:57 <uorygl> Essentially, it's a deleter: it looks at a wire and deletes a signal whenever it hears a signal coming in the third wire.
23:01:00 <AnMaster> (well states with 1 in and out)
23:01:18 <AnMaster> (obviously not for a given value, see inverter for example)
23:01:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, can't be reversible then can it?
23:02:08 <uorygl> The cross is a gate that works either way. The problem is, it can only be used to make OR gates, I think.
23:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't create a 2-in 1-out gate that is reversible.
23:02:33 <AnMaster> uorygl, I suspect that reversible gates need to be symetric, I'm not sure though
23:02:58 <AnMaster> with that I mean physically symmetric
23:02:59 <uorygl> Why would that be the case? You can do lots of things in WW that don't affect anything.
23:03:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:03:12 <AnMaster> uorygl, well okay, "active elements" then
23:03:33 <AnMaster> sure you could add a wire stump that just dies out
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23:03:43 <uorygl> Surely you can simulate a symmetric thing with an asymmetric thing.
23:04:27 <uorygl> Have one side that has p NAND (not q), one that has (not p) OR q. Or however that goes.
23:04:34 <uorygl> And modulo capitalization. :P
23:04:37 <AnMaster> uorygl, but doing one circuit for one way and another for the other way and then detecting from where the signal came is kind of cheating
23:05:20 <uorygl> Grr, my bigger PRNG also stabilized.
23:05:24 <AnMaster> (detection needed to block feedback from output)
23:05:59 <AnMaster> uorygl, don't all PRNGs cycle if you wait long enough? I'm not sure this is true.
23:06:24 <oerjan> uorygl: P and (not Q) is only universal if you also have the constant 1, otherwise you cannot construct anything which is always 1 from it
23:06:54 <uorygl> Yeah, all finite PRNGs cycle eventually.
23:06:57 <uorygl> This PRNG cycled quickly.
23:07:01 <oerjan> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice (if you dare)
23:07:22 <uorygl> oerjan: well, yeah, nothing's universal if you have only one state available to you. :)
23:07:56 <oerjan> uorygl: P nand Q is universal as a function of the states given, though
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23:09:17 <uorygl> Well, in WireWorld, all NOT gates have to have clocks anyway.
23:09:49 <uorygl> Since only one pattern is static.
23:11:23 <uorygl> In WireWorld, every pattern that does not consist entirely of dead wire and empty space turns into something else in the next generation.
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23:11:50 <AnMaster> uorygl, but why do you need a clock in an inverter in ww?
23:12:32 <Sgeo_2> AnMaster, if no signal goes in, how do you make a signal come out?
23:12:35 <Sgeo_2> Unless 0 isn't just no signal, but something else
23:12:42 <AnMaster> Sgeo_2, ah depends on how you define 0
23:12:48 <AnMaster> you can have two-wire signaling
23:13:08 <AnMaster> like fizzie did in that logic circuit in that game
23:13:25 <AnMaster> transport simulation... *not* simutrans
23:14:31 <oerjan> uorygl: in fact iirc (and trying to read that web page) P and (not Q) generates _precisely_ the class T_0^inf of those functions that have an argument such that the whole function cannot be 1 unless that argument is 1
23:14:34 <AnMaster> uorygl, you wouldn't need a clock with complementary signals right?
23:14:45 <AnMaster> plus this could be unclocked completely I think
23:14:57 * pikhq shall attempt to play with the TCP rate control algorithm
23:15:05 <AnMaster> well not exactly, you still need to generate a signal somewhere
23:15:52 <pikhq> RX bytes:7276136 (6.9 MiB) TX bytes:1575377 (1.5 MiB)
23:15:56 <AnMaster> uorygl, such a circuit would be more resilient against everything not matching up perfectly too
23:16:14 <AnMaster> as long as the wires did it wouldn't matter if you got a bit of delay with no signal on either
23:21:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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23:29:39 <Sgeo_2> "We are happy to be able to continue to offer episodes of Stargate SG-1 through January 2011."
23:31:28 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:34:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise: What did you mean by lightspeed memory?
23:34:08 <alise> memory that can be written and read to at lightspeed
23:34:14 <alise> through a communication path
23:34:18 <alise> no matter what bit of memory is accessed
23:35:38 <alise> phantom meant http://pentadecathlon.com/ not .net btw
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23:42:54 <alise> http://www.radicaleye.com/DRH/pi.html
23:42:58 <alise> Life really is the Physics Esolang.
23:43:51 <alise> [[As the number of ticks (t) increases, the population of the entire pattern approximates (pi-2)/720 t^2. At four million ticks, when the images below were captured, this works out to a value of pi correct to two places after the decimal point... so this is not quite the most efficient way to calculate pi.]]
23:43:58 <alise> The POPULATION APPROXIMATES PI. Seriously.
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23:44:52 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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23:48:51 <oerjan> there was this procession of colorful cats
23:52:19 <alise> Theory: We live in a relativistic, quantum universe... emulated on a Game of Life pattern.
23:55:57 <Sgeo_2> There's no real way to prove or disprove that
00:00:19 <alise> It's a purposefully ridiculous theory
00:01:15 <alise> Is there something that emulates rule 110 in Life?
00:01:30 <alise> i.e., produces still-life pixels and spaces, going downwards, of rule 110's evolution
00:01:40 <alise> according to some initial pattern, preferably settable
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00:08:02 <alise> Quadrescence: by hand?
00:09:05 <Quadrescence> If I sew them yes, if I glue them I do it mostly by hand with the help of a roller for the glue
00:09:51 <oerjan> bound with only the highest quality gold from free-ranging goldfinches
00:13:50 <alise> Quadrescence: Any pictures?
00:13:58 <alise> Also, what method of printing?
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00:25:56 <uorygl> He prints them by hand, too.
00:26:29 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
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00:26:37 <uorygl> He has this bottle of ink, and he uses his body heat to heat it up so hot that a little bubble forms, displacing the ink and spewing it onto the paper.
00:26:40 <alise> I hope these don't doth require sound.
00:26:50 <alise> WHAT HAS YOUR CAT GOT TO DO WITH BOOKS
00:27:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:27:17 <alise> Nice, though. Very nice.
00:27:55 <alise> In fact, I think I hereby grant thee a Certificate of Awesome.
00:27:55 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
00:28:08 <alise> Now... give me a damn book
00:28:11 <uorygl> So, this WireWorld AND NOT gate. It's impossible to destroy it by means of incoming signals, but nevertheless, it does not work as expected in all cases.
00:28:28 <Quadrescence> alise: I sell the paperback ones for relatively cheap
00:28:56 <alise> give me an infinite number of paperbacks, then I'll consider it
00:29:02 <alise> (I could sell them and use the profits to buy a hardback)
00:29:26 <Quadrescence> Paperbacks are nice, I like them especially for smaller books or books I don't intend to read 1000 times or use as a reference constantly
00:30:23 <alise> i would pay good money for a nice hardback Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
00:30:29 <alise> I haven't found a nicely printed one
00:30:40 <alise> money that is good
00:30:45 <alise> Might be best split up into one volume per book
00:30:49 <alise> the omnibus edition I have is rather unwieldy
00:30:57 <uorygl> Let's see, the delay between inputs must be at least 5. Otherwise, if it gets an incoming signal on the negated side, it will destroy the incoming signal on the non-negated side.
00:31:20 <alise> Quadrescence: how nice is the typography, I can't tell from the jewtubes
00:31:43 <alise> that isn't typography.
00:31:58 <Quadrescence> Oh, well I have no control over the typography unless I type it
00:32:18 <alise> what sources do you print from then? I'm sort of guessing this whole enterprise is not entirely legal :-)
00:32:20 <Quadrescence> And if I do have control over the typography it's perfect
00:32:45 <Quadrescence> alise: I "assume" that the books I print for people they have the "rights" to
00:33:06 <alise> Right... but what sources would you, hypothetically, use if printing entirely separately from this operation, and laws didn't exist?
00:33:32 <Sgeo_2> "Your answer to the Queue question on the BCS370 Test was terrific! "
00:33:59 <Quadrescence> Hypothetically if I were to print books in an illegal fashion I would obtain ebooks from whatever site or server I could and in the last case I'd scan it myself and in the last last case I'd type it myself.
00:34:58 <alise> You should totally type out the entirety of the H2G2 N-ogy.
00:35:03 <alise> I assume you have invincible hands.
00:35:10 <Quadrescence> ebooks meaning scanned books or sometimes raw text docs, in which case I'd format it myself in latex
00:35:30 <alise> XeTeX or plain LaTeX?
00:35:38 <alise> The former has more typography and font support.
00:35:45 <Sgeo_2> alise, they're online >.>
00:35:50 <alise> Sgeo_2: I own them.
00:35:58 <Sgeo_2> I'm only going to download the ones that I own physically though
00:36:00 <Quadrescence> it supports dumb fonts like TRUE TYPE and whatever
00:36:08 <alise> Quadrescence: Well, there aren't many good text fonts available for LaTeX.
00:36:15 <alise> And XeTeX /does/ undeniably have more microtypography support.
00:36:30 <Quadrescence> No, Latex has wonderful microtypography support
00:36:50 <alise> But XeTeX has better.
00:37:14 <alise> Anyway, http://nitens.org/taraborelli/latex shut up and print a book in Garamond, now.
00:37:22 <alise> Quadrescence: Considering it was one of its design aims...
00:37:44 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
00:38:03 <alise> I expect the first hardback, LaTeX-set volume of H2G2 by tomorrow.
00:38:20 <Sgeo_2> Hm, who makes money from DNA books?
00:38:21 <alise> Or, if possible, yesterday.
00:38:29 <alise> Sgeo_2: the publishers and presumably whoever inherited the rights
00:38:31 <alise> but mainly the publishers
00:38:36 <alise> probably his widow
00:38:39 * Sgeo_2 doesn't care too much about the publishers
00:38:56 <Quadrescence> alise: http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/microtype.pdf
00:39:15 * alise tries to figure out if he /has/ a widow
00:39:45 <alise> Quadrescence: I agree that LaTeXZ has superb microtypography support.
00:39:51 <alise> It's just that XeTeX extended such.
00:40:16 <Quadrescence> The only advantage I see of XeTeX is its ability to support arbitrary fonts essentially
00:40:27 <alise> Well, and more convenient Unicode.
00:41:21 <alise> You should bind some books in olde-style cases.
00:42:05 <alise> I hate dust jackets
00:42:28 <Quadrescence> I could do leather covers, book cases, headbands, bookmark ribbons, bla bloo bla bla
00:42:43 <alise> All for the low low price of $5,000,000
00:43:36 <Quadrescence> The regular old paperbacks at around 8x5" at <400 pages, I charge $8 + 4 for shipping :O
00:44:00 <alise> how much do you charge for hardbacks?
00:44:59 <Quadrescence> Well first let me clarify that hardback also implies a sewn binding. Anyway I charge more so around $25 though I contemplate charging more only because it takes so much time and I haven't been charging for that
00:45:34 <alise> What about a hardback that you re-typeset :P
00:45:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:45:47 <Quadrescence> I use expensive book cloth and acid free glues and 100% linen threads and real beeswax and stuff
00:46:00 <Quadrescence> That I retypeset, depends really, I'd probably talk about it in PM and whatever
00:46:30 <alise> "Now! What about FIVE of those!"
00:46:35 <alise> I'll get the piggy-bank...
00:47:42 <alise> Hmm... 180 pages, 208 pages, 160 pages, 192-224 pages (UK-US), 229-240 pages (UK-US). But that's paperback, and so useless.
00:48:19 <alise> So clearly I need to be using my endless bank account. I'll go get Hilbert
00:49:00 <Quadrescence> My original goal was to provide books cheaply for people, so cheap that only materials costs are covered, and nothing else (so I don't get any profit)
00:49:43 <alise> I think if you re-typeset the entirety of a book series then printed it in hardback by hand you deserve some bloody profit.
00:49:55 <alise> But I'm crazy like that :P
00:50:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null).
00:51:16 <Quadrescence> Well ideally I'd want profit (though the profit would go to better supplies since shit is so expensive)
00:51:41 <alise> You're like the Folio Society... except you're only one person and don't require buying like 50 books just to get one
00:51:51 <alise> So, not really much like that at all
00:52:26 <alise> I know! You should... print interactive fiction. In hardback.
00:52:31 <alise> Clearly this is an excellent, feasible idea.
00:53:59 <alise> http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1415009849&searchurl=an%3Ddouglas%2Badams%26bi%3D0%26bx%3Doff%26ds%3D30%26sortby%3D1%26x%3D58%26y%3D14
00:54:12 <alise> Quadrescence: LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE BEEN OUTBID BY 1252
00:55:49 <alise> actually I kind of have an urge to try and typeset h2g2 now :/
00:58:13 <alise> I'm not so good at typesetting prose with LaTeX though.
00:58:20 <alise> I haven't really done it before.
00:59:09 <alise> Heck no; Adams (the second Macintosh owner in the UK) would roll in his grave... as would typography.
00:59:17 <alise> Plus, you know, I find Word much less usable than LaTeX.
01:00:44 <pikhq> alise: Fortunately for you, TeX is very, very capable of typesetting prose. :)
01:00:54 <alise> The author of groff is awesome, just look at http://jclark.com/bio.htm
01:01:04 <alise> "I was educated at Charterhouse. I read Mathematics and Philosophy at Merton College, Oxford, where I obtained Class I Honours." + that picture
01:01:08 <alise> Could he be more upper-class
01:01:19 <alise> Answer: Only if he was the Queen
01:01:22 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but not by much.
01:01:29 <alise> (Kings are lower-class than queens.)
01:01:57 <alise> Having said that I have a completely un-classy friend who goes to Oxford... but not Merton College, so there.
01:02:00 <Quadrescence> I love them more if they typeset mathematics with it
01:02:07 <alise> <pikhq> alise: Fortunately for you, TeX is very, very capable of typesetting prose. :)
01:02:10 <alise> yeah but http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/microtype.pdf
01:02:15 <alise> WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO SET THESE TO
01:02:20 <alise> Quadrescence: Eqn, dude! Eqn!
01:02:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eqn
01:02:28 <alise> FUCK YEAH EQN http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps
01:02:39 <pikhq> alise: SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR MOTHER
01:02:41 <alise> LEAVES SUMS AT A SMALL SIZE NO MATTER WHAT FUCK YEAH
01:02:50 <alise> LITTLE SIGMA SITTING AROUND THERE AIN'T DOIN' SHIT
01:03:11 <Quadrescence> alise: hahaha. I just like how old-style it looks, sort of.
01:03:14 <alise> I love how eqn fails horribly at tall square roots
01:03:17 <alise> look at http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps
01:03:20 <Quadrescence> Like, it looks like a typesetter actually typeset it
01:03:48 <alise> eqn looks like the kind of stuff you see in old books, yeah
01:03:51 <alise> Quadrescence: i like it apart from the raggedness
01:04:10 <alise> I think TeX-style typesetting became needed when mathematical notation got really huge and crufty and complex
01:04:19 <alise> because we really needed something that could size any damn equation
01:05:20 <alise> I know nothing of Lout
01:06:32 <pikhq> Seems like ATM i've got about modem-level speed. But hell, at this point I'LL TAKE IT.
01:06:44 <pikhq> That at least means I'm getting packets!
01:07:29 <Quadrescence> alise: ftp://ftp.cs.usyd.edu.au/jeff/lout/lout-3.38-user.ps.gz
01:07:53 <alise> is it groff-made-latex or latex-made-groff? I know it's based on a functional language.
01:08:24 <Quadrescence> When you look at it, you'll think groff made it
01:10:17 <alise> I wish there was a digital typesetting system that produced results that look like the old, pre-computer typesettings.
01:10:21 <alise> Nothing quite reaches that level.
01:10:51 <pikhq> Sadly, TeX is the closest there is.
01:11:18 <Quadrescence> It's not sad really. I mean, I am kind of happy it can't be replicated
01:11:43 <alise> It is more convenient to use computers; if we can have convenience and quality, that is all the better.
01:11:45 <Quadrescence> Mostly for faggy reasons like that typesetters (human ones) have their mark in history and even a computer can't do their job :)
01:11:50 <pikhq> And LilyPad tries very hard to manage it for music.
01:11:53 <alise> Nostalgia for older, more difficult ways isn't productive.
01:12:02 <alise> Typesetting is a dead profession, so we can only try to improve the state of play.
01:12:10 <Quadrescence> alise: I don't think it's necessarily better quality
01:12:21 <Quadrescence> I just think so many people suck at typing these days. By typing I mean typesetting
01:12:36 <Quadrescence> Most people just whip something up and publish it :(
01:12:39 <alise> Quadrescence: Well, I don't know. Traditional typesetting has some sort of precise quality that its digital counterpart lacks.
01:13:01 <alise> It just seems to be, somehow, perfect by less than a "pixel".
01:13:06 <Sgeo_2> Will you be sad if programming becomes obsolete due to the Singularity?
01:13:10 <alise> I'm speaking metaphorically -- bullshitting, that is -- here, but you know what I mean.
01:13:32 <alise> Sgeo_2: I kind of think a singularity would adjust my value system so I don't value things like that, because valuing things that aren't there any more would make me less happy.
01:13:34 <Quadrescence> alise: I sort of get what you mean. I still think its the authors' fault
01:13:36 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Well, you see, traditional typesetting was done by people who had labored long to become experts in the craft.
01:13:44 <alise> Quadrescence: *it's; sorry, I arguably have OCD.
01:13:52 <alise> MUST. CORRECT. GRAMMAR
01:14:06 <Sgeo_2> alise, but you just used incorrect grammar!
01:14:07 <pikhq> Modern typesetting is done by retards who think Word is a replacement for a good typesetter.
01:14:20 <pikhq> (even though it, at *best*, is a replacement for a freaking typewriter)
01:14:36 <alise> Fine; MUST. CORRECT. ORTHOGRAPHY
01:14:41 <Sgeo_2> What would LyX be a replacement for?
01:15:15 <alise> LyX seems to me perennially useless.
01:15:31 <alise> If you want precise typesetting, you need to tweak, analyse, even specify, so you need plain LaTeX.
01:15:43 <alise> If you want to take notes, or make a quick document, it is too heavy.
01:15:45 <Quadrescence> LyX is just easier for people, but unfortunately it churns out meh results
01:15:54 <Quadrescence> People think that if something uses latex, it's automagically pretty
01:16:22 <pikhq> This is true for simple typesetting purposes.
01:16:24 * Sgeo_2 likes automagically pretty
01:16:41 <alise> Quadrescence: Have you ever used ConTeXt?
01:16:51 <Sgeo_2> Why shouldn't my homework look somewhat nice
01:16:54 <alise> Apparently it's more focused on publishing than LaTeX.
01:17:02 <alise> "It is especially suited for structured documents, automated document production, very fine typography, and multi-lingual typesetting."
01:17:02 <Sgeo_2> And use styles defined by someone else, because I'm clueless
01:17:17 <alise> "ConTeXt from the ground up is a typography and typesetting system meant to provide users easy and consistent access to advanced typographical controlimportant for general-purpose typesetting tasks. The original vision of LaTeX is to insulate the user from typographical decisionsa useful approach for submitting, say, articles for a scientific journal."
01:17:23 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_2: There's no problem with using other styles and stuff
01:17:39 <Sgeo_2> Quadrescence, the fact that I'm clueless about what makes something look goo
01:17:46 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_2: The problem is when people use another person's style then they deviate from it
01:18:46 * Sgeo_2 would be too clueless to attempt something like tha
01:18:59 <Sgeo_2> But how can minor adjustments "ruin" something?
01:19:21 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_2: That minor dent in that Ferrari ruins it
01:19:47 <Quadrescence> Yes. Of course from a functional standpoint it doesn't.
01:20:09 * Sgeo_2 remembers arguing with his dad about some scratch or something in the new car his dad was going to buy. I didn't really care, my dad did.
01:20:20 <Quadrescence> But I care about the content and aesthetics of a document.
01:20:40 <Quadrescence> Some minor changes are okay, but most often the minor changes are made by someone clueless
01:20:41 <alise> Sgeo_2: even from a functional standpoint,
01:20:49 <alise> the brain/visual system is very sensitive to minor typographical changes
01:20:54 <alise> this is why we have the concept of "rhythm"
01:21:04 <alise> because unless there is a very simple, monotonous rhythm to a text, it's harder to read
01:21:32 <Sgeo_2> But if a document uses the same style througout, then wouldn't that be preserved, even if the style is different?
01:21:50 <pikhq> Man. Reading stuff typeset by TeX makes me really wish that all computer text display was as well-done.
01:22:02 <alise> Sgeo_2: If you change a well-set margin, you ruin the flow.
01:22:21 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_2: It depends on the changes. Not all changes ruin everything. Some changes can be beneficial
01:22:39 <Quadrescence> But changing all headings to bold-italic-underline in Papyrus is ugly
01:23:06 <Sgeo_2> Hm, which is better/worse: Snapdragon processor, or 866MHz Pentium III
01:23:34 <alise> Snapdragon is better, almost certainly.
01:23:41 <alise> It being a modern, 1GHz processor.
01:23:47 <alise> Quadrescence: Ew, Papyrus.
01:24:01 * alise is trying to decide on a typeface to have a go at typesetting H2G2 in.
01:24:07 <alise> It needs to be really, really British.
01:24:28 <alise> Garamond doesn't seem to sit right. It's too flowery, too subtly-serifed-at-the-edges.
01:24:43 <alise> Minion seems too... wimpy?
01:24:51 <uorygl> Don't you want a serif font?
01:25:06 <alise> But, I mean, look: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AdobeGaramondSp.svg
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01:25:12 * uorygl frowns at not being able to remember the meaning of this sentence.
01:25:13 <alise> Little tweaks and curves at the edges.
01:25:16 <uorygl> `translate Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensyöjänä.
01:25:18 <HackEgo> The early days of domestication, dogs have been useful as well as a warning vahtina jätteensyöjänä.
01:25:25 <alise> It's just not something that seems to fit the text.
01:25:29 <pikhq> uorygl: Sans-serif not on computer screens should make everyone cry.
01:25:36 * uorygl waits for alise to explain that learning a language is not about learning the meaning of each individual sentence.
01:25:51 <alise> Quadrescence: Yes, I'm thinking Baskerville.
01:26:04 <Quadrescence> Baskerville is one of my favoritest fonts ever
01:26:07 <uorygl> And, as someone explained to me, that's actually ". . . have been useful as a warning as well as as trash-eaters".
01:26:13 <alise> It's certainly British.
01:26:15 <uorygl> Wow, that's a lot of ass.
01:26:19 <Quadrescence> It is classy, old, pretty, hardcore, yes british
01:26:22 <Sgeo_2> Link to something to show me what Baskerville looks like?
01:26:31 <alise> Sgeo_2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baskerville
01:26:43 <alise> I think the H2G2 omnibus I have may be typeset in Baskerville.
01:27:10 <pikhq> uorygl: In order to learn a language, you should use said language.
01:27:15 <Sgeo_2> Except for that uppercase Q, it looks ordinary
01:27:27 <Sgeo_2> I think I like "flowery"
01:27:42 <alise> Baskerville's uppercase Q is quite unique.
01:27:52 <alise> Nothing wrong with flowery. But you have to choose the face that fits the text.
01:28:00 <alise> If there is one thing H2G2 is not, it is flowery.
01:28:03 <Quadrescence> alise: He's saying the rest of the text looks ordinary
01:28:15 <alise> Well, most typefaces look ordinary to most people.
01:28:21 <Sgeo_2> The numbers are quite nice
01:28:24 <alise> They probably shouldn't be noticed; the whole point is to support flow.
01:28:33 <alise> So I can't deride him for his (uninformed) opinion.
01:28:42 <pikhq> Most people think MS Comic Sans is a perfectly workable font.
01:28:42 <Quadrescence> Because they're old-style, which is probably what you are noticing
01:29:04 <alise> Sgeo_2: Why interesting? Because they are text figures?
01:29:10 <Quadrescence> pikhq: It's not that really, just some people can't tell the difference between two fonts
01:29:26 <alise> Sgeo_2: Numbers are /meant/ to hang below the baseline.
01:29:45 <Sgeo_2> I was more noticing the way that some numbers were above others, I think
01:29:48 <uorygl> pikhq: I *guess* I could learn Finnish by talking to people who speak only Finnish.
01:29:53 <Sgeo_2> But without that, they still look interesting
01:30:00 <alise> Quadrescence: do you like Hoefler & Frere-Jones?
01:30:03 <uorygl> I would speak entirely using the nominative, accusative, and genitive, though. :P
01:30:13 <Sgeo_2> The italics look nice. But the regular letters.. are just letters
01:30:31 <Sgeo_2> I guess that's a good thing
01:31:06 <Quadrescence> alise: Yes of course. They make a lot of classy fonts
01:31:19 <alise> Quadrescence: do you like Didot?
01:31:19 <pikhq> Also, Baskerville looks absolutely gorgeous.
01:31:42 <Sgeo_2> The font itself costs money?
01:31:49 <alise> Sgeo_2: so naive :)
01:31:55 <Sgeo_2> Or is there a free Baskerville font somewhere?
01:31:59 <pikhq> Sgeo_2: Yes, welcome to professional fonts.
01:32:10 <Sgeo_2> I was hoping I could use it for homework or something
01:32:16 <Quadrescence> I am pretty sure there's a free version out there.
01:32:20 <alise> Typeface designers make a nice living from their works, as do digitisers.
01:32:21 <pikhq> Be amazed that there *exist* free fonts that don't gouge your eyes out.
01:32:36 <alise> Perhaps it shouldn't be so, perhaps it's yet another instance of that abuse known as copyright.
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01:32:40 <alise> But that is how it is.
01:32:57 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_2: I feel *embarrassed* to typeset something in baskerville that isn't something I'm very proud of
01:33:14 <pikhq> Though, as a typeface itself cannot be copyrighted, you would be perfectly free to create your own .ttf file of Baskerville.
01:33:33 <alise> Quadrescence: *typeface; come on, let's be pretentious.
01:34:08 <alise> I dunno; I found some series of typefaces describing themselves on Flickr and set in Didot was "I am a whore." I couldn't disagree.
01:34:20 <alise> Quadrescence: Didot is a typeface not a font :(
01:34:26 <alise> or rather... a group of typefaces, but shut up
01:34:48 <alise> Quadrescence: Good <3
01:34:54 <Quadrescence> I do not like Didot, I think a lot of it is very fugly
01:35:03 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didot_(typeface)
01:35:19 <alise> Think of "that pretentious French font that looks like wine and cheese".
01:35:22 <alise> You're thinking of Didot.
01:35:35 <alise> Quadrescence: Yeah, I don't find Didot readable; it's like an artistic manifesto gone wrong.
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01:35:58 <alise> And it seems that the bits that are thick are not so important and the bits that are thin that are important, so you feel like you're reading a reverse image of sorts...
01:36:44 * alise decides that H2G2 isn't Hoefler Text
01:36:54 <alise> (I'm just iterating through my favourite typefaces...)
01:36:55 <uorygl> I don't have much to say about typography, but I really like Adobe Caslon Pro.
01:36:57 <Quadrescence> alise: it's like half the letters were just sheared at some angle
01:37:02 <alise> It probably isn't Mercury.
01:37:14 <alise> Caslon is quite nice.
01:37:45 <alise> The italic J is problematic though; I always read it as an F.
01:38:03 <uorygl> This italic J? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CaslonSp.svg
01:38:07 <alise> Quadrescence: Hopefully not for text.
01:38:37 <alise> pikhq: Reply to Courier for disambiguity: O0
01:39:05 <alise> Quadrescence: I dunno, I don't see any reason code should be monospaced. IMO we should embrace what the mathematicians found; that rich notation is useful.
01:39:24 <alise> It's like we're still at the analogy of the "writing out equations in words with minimal symbols" stage.
01:39:31 <uorygl> Hmm, the word "awkward" would be much less awkward if it were spelled "acquard". Except that's not really a valid way to spell that.
01:39:35 <Gregor> OK alise, you go have fun with Fortress, we'll keep using real languages.
01:39:38 <alise> That's a failing of computers.
01:39:41 <alise> Gregor: I don't support Fortress.
01:39:41 <uorygl> "Auquard", on the other hand... I like that spelling.
01:39:53 <alise> Gregor: And are you really dismissing all programming language research?
01:40:06 <Gregor> As a programming language researcher ... yes.
01:40:07 <alise> "Gee, nice idea, kid... too bad it's not in a REAL language, like C."
01:40:09 <alise> "Gee, nice idea, kid... too bad it's not in a REAL language, like C."
01:40:22 <Quadrescence> alise: It's easy to print, it's easy to write, it's easy to read, no syntax has to be learned...or minimal at least, and there are enough things to tell things apart
01:40:33 <uorygl> alise: wow, you managed to get all that out of "you go have fun with Fortress, we'll keep using real languages"?
01:40:45 <uorygl> I'll never be that skilled at reading between the lines.
01:41:00 <Quadrescence> We aren't going to use weirdo identifiers to denote NumberOfCustomers
01:41:01 <alise> uorygl: The pattern was obvious, and I've observed facets of it in Gregor before: "[Thing we should do]" "I reject that because it hasn't already been done"
01:41:04 <Gregor> uorygl: I nose, it's amazo.
01:41:14 <alise> Quadrescence: I didn't say we should use mathematical notation.
01:41:24 <Gregor> alise: No, that's just how I express that it's a terrible idea.
01:41:27 <alise> I said we should embrace the /lesson/ of mathematical notation: that something more than text is useful.
01:41:49 <alise> Wow, I should really learn not to express ideas too radical in the... esoteric... programming... languages... channel...
01:41:58 <uorygl> Eh, mathematical notation isn't that hard to type.
01:42:02 <Quadrescence> I mean for jebus christ's sake, inputting math isn't even all that easy
01:42:03 <alise> Quadrescence: Of course; that's a failing of current input designs. We can't go all-out like mathematical notation. I didn't say I knew the happy medium.
01:42:06 <alise> I just said we should find it.
01:42:12 <uorygl> Well, it depends on your editor.
01:42:14 <alise> Of course, it should always be easy to input on computers.
01:42:19 <Sgeo_2> Radical idea: Time is a dodecahedron!
01:42:32 <uorygl> "Time is a dodecahedron" is a type error.
01:42:39 <alise> You're a type error
01:42:44 <pikhq> alise: We should definitely input programs using NOTHING BUT KANJI
01:42:52 <uorygl> Except hmm, maybe that actually makes sense.
01:43:05 <alise> Quadrescence: Ooooooooooh print Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass
01:43:24 <uorygl> I mean, suppose that the domain of physics' time variable is a dodecahedron, with calculus and everything defined in the natural way...
01:43:31 <Quadrescence> alise: you're supposed to ask me for math books and stuff
01:43:36 <alise> Quadrescence: I know.
01:43:45 <alise> But you said "any books", so I am happily misinterpreting to infinity.
01:43:47 <uorygl> Nah, I have no idea how that would work.
01:44:03 <uorygl> Quadrescence: wait, are you saying we can get any book?
01:44:21 * Sgeo_2 would love to have changed scientific thought in a correct way entirely by accident
01:44:34 <uorygl> Sgeo_2: Feynman did that, on a very small scale.
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01:44:56 <alise> Quadrescence: Print "Making Resin for Dummies".
01:45:03 <uorygl> Someone handed him a huge, indecipherable diagram and started spieling about it.
01:45:15 <pikhq> Feynman just plain did a lot.
01:45:28 <uorygl> So he found a random symbol, guessed that it denoted a valve, and said, "Uh... what happens if this valve gets stuck?"
01:45:45 <alise> Feynman was an algorithm that turned women into algorithms that turn bongos into theorems.
01:45:49 <alise> He was the first metamathematician.
01:45:59 <uorygl> So the guys looked at that spot for a moment, and said, "Gosh, you're absolutely right."
01:46:06 <uorygl> And so they thought he was a genius.
01:46:11 <uorygl> Which, you know, was kind of true.
01:46:23 <alise> A first-order mathematician, indeed!
01:46:39 <Sgeo_2> What was the diagram about, and what were the consequences?
01:46:49 <Sgeo_2> Or are you making it up, because Google's not giving me any love
01:46:51 <pikhq> I need to grab my copy of "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" from parent's house...
01:46:54 <Quadrescence> Everyone listen to my fave song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk
01:47:08 <uorygl> The diagram was of some piece of machinery that processed nuclear material.
01:47:20 <uorygl> If that mistake hadn't been caught... something really bad might have happened. :P
01:48:51 <uorygl> Who's it by and what's it about?
01:50:45 <pikhq> Quadrescence: 習 英語 or else 私 will keep on 使ing 漢字 at 君. Oh, and yes, this 是, 中 真, 勿事 but 英語. :P
01:50:55 <uorygl> Heh heh, "Sinfonia Domestica".
01:51:10 <uorygl> A symphony about stuff that happens around the house.
01:51:40 <Quadrescence> pikhq: fucking fuck or else fuckers will keep on fucking fucking at fuck. Oh, and yes, this fucker, fucking fucker, fucked but fucking fucks
01:52:14 <uorygl> `translate 習 英語 or else 私 will keep on 使ing 漢字 at 君. Oh, and yes, this 是, 中 真, 勿事 but 英語
01:52:16 <HackEgo> Learn English or else private will keep on making ing character at jun. Oh, and yes, this is, in truth, do not matter but in English
01:52:56 <pikhq> I do believe that went through as Chinese.
01:53:20 <pikhq> Worked surprisingly well, though.
01:53:33 <uorygl> `translatefromto jp en 習 英語 or else 私 will keep on 使ing 漢字 at 君. Oh, and yes, this 是, 中 真, 勿事 but 英語
01:53:35 <HackEgo> Learn English or else private will keep on making ing character at jun. Oh, and yes, this is, in truth, do not matter but in English
01:53:46 <pikhq> "Learn English or else I will keep on using kanji at you. Oh, and yes, this is, in fact, nothing but English."
01:54:03 <pikhq> `translatefromto zh en 習 英語 or else 私 will keep on 使ing 漢字 at 君. Oh, and yes, this 是, 中 真, 勿事 but 英語
01:54:05 <HackEgo> Learn English or else private will keep on making ing character at jun. Oh, and yes, this is, in truth, do not matter but in English
01:54:07 <uorygl> I will keep on learning English, or else use kanji ing at you. Oh, and yes, this Shi true medium, but 勿事 English
01:54:26 <uorygl> That's Google's actual translation from Japanese.
01:54:45 <uorygl> `translatefromto zh en ウィキプロジェクトのための名前空間新設に関する投票が行なわれています。投票期限は、5月30日です。
01:54:48 <HackEgo> Voting period は, May 30 です.
01:54:59 <uorygl> `translatefromto zh en ウィキプロジェクトのための名前空間新設に関する投票が行なわれています。
01:55:03 <HackEgo> ウ ィ キ プ ロ _ GUI ェ ク Suites Circular ta の の に former space off the new line na si ru voting ga i ma si わ れ て.
01:55:15 <uorygl> Former space off the new line!
01:56:02 <Sgeo_2> Hmm, PdaNet has a trial period thing. After the trial period, I can't use https:// anymore
01:56:21 <pikhq> uorygl: Try translating from Japanese?
01:58:19 <pikhq> Quadrescence: いいえ、日本語がどんどん上手になる。それが日本語じゃなくて、漢字で書いた英語だった。
01:59:22 <pikhq> I wonder how that gets mangled.
01:59:31 <pikhq> `translate いいえ、日本語がどんどん上手になる。それが日本語じゃなくて、漢字で書いた英語だった。
01:59:33 <HackEgo> Japanese, not that it was written in English characters.
02:00:06 <pikhq> What did it even do with the first sentence?
02:00:09 <pikhq> `translate いいえ、日本語がどんどん上手になる。
02:00:11 <HackEgo> No, the Japanese have become increasingly well.
02:00:25 <pikhq> *Wow* that mangles it.
02:00:54 <pikhq> I wasn't expecting perfection, what with Japanese being very context-dependent, but... Damn.
02:00:57 <pikhq> That's just *bad*.
02:01:08 <pikhq> `translate でも、これは本当に日本語だ。
02:01:10 <HackEgo> However, this is really Japanese.
02:01:24 <pikhq> That's a workable translation.
02:02:47 <Quadrescence> ( ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｱﾊﾊ八八ﾉヽﾉヽﾉヽﾉ ＼ / ＼/ ＼ 一二三┻━┻ 一二三┻━┻ 一二三┻━┻ 一二三┻━┻ 一二三┻━┻}。々°)ﾉ
02:05:08 <uorygl> `translatefromto jp en 阿波罗8号是阿波罗计划中的第二次载人飞行任务，三位执行此任务的宇航员分别为指令长弗兰克·博尔曼、指令舱驾驶员詹姆斯·洛威尔以及登月舱驾驶员威廉·安德斯。
02:05:11 <HackEgo> Members 威廉安德斯.
02:05:40 <augur> uorygl: thats chinese not japanese.
02:05:52 <augur> `translatefromto ch en 阿波罗8号是阿波罗计划中的第二次载人飞行任务，三位执行此任务的宇航员分别为指令长弗兰克·博尔曼、指令舱驾驶员詹姆斯·洛威尔以及登月舱驾驶员威廉·安德斯。
02:05:53 <HackEgo> Members 威廉安德斯.
02:05:55 <uorygl> I know. I'm wondering what will happen if I translate from the wrong language
02:06:23 <alise> Quadrescence: do you like exljbris?
02:06:30 <uorygl> `translatefromto zh en 阿波罗8号是阿波罗计划中的第二次载人飞行任务，三位执行此任务的宇航员分别为指令长弗兰克·博尔曼、指令舱驾驶员詹姆斯·洛威尔以及登月舱驾驶员威廉·安德斯。
02:06:34 <alise> I really want Calluna, http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html
02:06:46 <uorygl> `translatefromto zh en 威廉安德斯
02:07:45 <alise> i'm just trying to get an excuse to be mock-raged at you :|
02:09:52 <alise> Quadrescence: please suck on multiple cacti
02:10:44 <Sgeo_2> ARGH, I hate this thing
02:12:39 <alise> Quadrescence: Still, at least you have one; I have no language preference, as I'm continually saddled with the troubling knowledge that all existing languages are inadequate, plus the desire to make new, better ones, which never works out quite as I plan. I have several language antipreferences, though.
02:12:58 <alise> One is definitely C. It can't even handle basic data structures without a page of memory handling and bookkeeping.
02:13:05 <Quadrescence> But at the time I need to hit the books, I use C
02:13:08 <alise> And that's simply the antithesis of what I want.
02:14:25 <Sgeo_2> How is Python inadequate? How is Haskell inadequate?
02:15:14 <alise> Python is inadequate because it suffers from the endless tangle of impurity, and GvR does not truly understand languages: he believes, for instance, that iteration obsoletes general tail-call elimination. He is an imperative programmer out of his league, designing something he has no idea how to design.
02:15:18 <pikhq> Haskell is probably the closest in common use to what alise would like. What with not sucking giant donkey balls and all.
02:15:26 <alise> The result is a mediocre mess with a glaze of cleanness.
02:15:52 <alise> Haskell is inadequate because its type system cannot express many things it should be able to, because its syntax is lacking in some ways, and a general bag of odds-and-ends of flaws.
02:15:56 <alise> It's good, but it doesn't sit right.
02:17:09 <Sgeo_2> How is PHP inadequate? *ducks*
02:17:38 <Quadrescence> alise: I think you'll find that if you ended up designing a language and making something marketable, you'd have a hard time
02:17:41 <pikhq> PHP is wrong in most of the ways that can be managed.
02:17:59 <Sgeo_2> Which is worse, PHP or Perl?
02:18:10 <alise> Quadrescence: Yes, but GvR is not so much detached from Rasmus, the creator of PHP, who hates languages and doesn't enjoy programming.
02:18:27 <alise> One level higher, certainly, but he certainly does not have the range of understanding of languages to make the right decisions.
02:18:32 <alise> And I believe Python is simply not a good language.
02:18:55 <alise> I could easily make a marketable language with all the API trimmings, I just don't want to. What's the point? It'd probably suck.
02:19:02 <Sgeo_2> Why would someone who doesn't enjoy programming make a programming language?
02:19:20 <Sgeo_2> To make things "easy" for non-programmers or something?
02:19:26 <pikhq> PHP is most definitely worse than Perl.
02:20:07 <pikhq> Perl suffers from having too much flexibility and a somewhat write-only syntax.
02:20:30 * Sgeo_2 finds that, at my level, Haskell is a bit read-only
02:20:39 <pikhq> PHP suffers from being "designed" by pretty much throwing shit together.
02:21:09 <Quadrescence> Fortunately in PHP and Python, you can Get Things Done
02:21:29 <Quadrescence> Not write some fancy "beautiful code" that is hard to use
02:21:43 <pikhq> Quadrescence: This is the only reason those languages have not been written off as complete and utter failures.
02:21:59 <Sgeo_2> pikhq, are you saying that Python should be a failure???
02:22:01 <Quadrescence> Of course, because they've done the opposite of fail for people
02:22:31 <pikhq> Sgeo_2: I'm saying I liked it better when it was called Tcl.
02:23:00 <alise> <Sgeo_2> Why would someone who doesn't enjoy programming make a programming language?
02:23:02 <alise> To get things done.
02:23:55 <alise> Anyway, "getting things done" is usually employed as a deus ex machina against good design; this crappy design works because people have used it for so long that they have figured out how to cobble together something that works; your superior design is more immature and so hasn't formed the framework it needs yet; therefore, the old way is better than the new way.
02:24:13 <alise> Not everyone who wants change and dislikes the status quo is a hopeless ideologue.
02:25:10 <Sgeo_2> My dad wants me to find a company that makes a universal laptop charger, something with Lithium-Ion or something. The company's name starts with Digi
02:25:20 <Sgeo_2> He wants me to find the company
02:25:34 * Sgeo_2 wishes he was more certain about the company's name
02:25:44 <alise> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=VY8&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-GB%3Aunofficial&q=digi*+laptop+battery+charger+lithium+ion&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
02:26:03 <Sgeo_2> I didn't know you could do * in Google searches!
02:26:43 <Sgeo_2> Hm, I can't exclude digital for obvious reasons, but I don't want digi* to only match because of digitalk
02:29:52 * Sgeo_2 screams wildly at the slowness of his Internet connection
02:30:29 -!- Sgeo_2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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02:32:55 <Sgeo> There are too many companies named Digitech!
02:32:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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02:37:07 * Sgeo decides to just look for chargers for his laptop's model
02:37:58 <Sgeo> Hm, that's twice that I typed charter instead of charger
02:48:11 <Sgeo> F My Internet connection
02:48:15 <alise> Higher-order incantations.
02:48:17 <Sgeo> I'm going off of IRC to play more Gish
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02:50:38 <SgeoN1> Gish > crappy Intetnet use
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03:30:16 <alise> Quadrescence: incidentally how easy is it to create a new "style" in LaTeX?
03:30:53 <alise> logically, you should have to design everything from scratch rather than mangling an existing style; but on the other hand, that sounds like an incredibly laborious task
03:34:13 <Quadrescence> I'm still working on mine and I've been working at it for months
03:34:56 <alise> Quadrescence: And, presumably, I'd want to define one for the H2G2 books...
03:35:05 <alise> What have you gotten me into.
03:35:26 <pikhq> I hate packet-per-second Internet.
03:36:15 <alise> My printing of the books has some odd quirks; "CHAPTER N" is, if I recall correctly, set vertically to the left of the opening of the text.
03:37:54 <alise> Note to self; remember not to do any typesetting.
03:37:58 <alise> Quadrescence: Ah, but going too far is wonderful!
03:38:38 <Quadrescence> You can read all about the memoir class in the documentation, all the typographic theory
03:38:46 <alise> Quadrescence: I wouldn't want to produce anything of anything less than significantly greater quality than I've seen.
03:39:11 <alise> That means I'm up against my hardback edition; that means I'm going to have to tweak /something/ along the line
03:39:16 <lament> /mode #esoteric -b lambent
03:40:22 <alise> Quadrescence: I'll probably do that. But tweaking an existing style is error-prone, as you said.
03:40:42 <alise> Besides, I won't really feel pleased with the work unless I make it as good a I can, so I'll have to see...
03:40:53 <alise> Quadrescence: Do you want to live in a world where every book looks the same? :)
03:41:10 <Quadrescence> There are actually a lot of modifiable parameters
03:43:05 <alise> Quadrescence: I don't remember the videos; have you put any inscriptions on the cloth of the hardbacks? I'm not sure what the correct term is.
03:43:30 <Quadrescence> no I haven't. I don't have the right tools, so I leave the cloth blank
03:43:57 <alise> I vastly prefer them to dust jackets. I wonder how it's done
03:44:09 <alise> like maybe they embed little gnomes into the cloth...
03:44:28 <alise> How expensive, exactly, is penis
03:45:03 <alise> order of magnitude?
03:46:41 <alise> Now I can't believe that.
03:47:54 <alise> Quadrescence: I'm imagining a shelf filled with hardback books with nothing written on the spine
03:48:02 <alise> IN A WORLD... WHERE BOOK-PRINTERS RUN OUT OF MONEY...
03:48:25 <lament> ill sell you my penis for $5
03:49:38 <alise> see i can afford $5.
03:54:13 <alise> drop caps are weird
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04:01:04 <alise> like seriously, I mean, what's the point.
04:17:11 <alise> SgeoN1: "Google Abandons Direct Sales of Nexus One"
04:18:32 <SgeoN1> How so? It's going to be available from retailers apparently
04:19:35 <alise> But locked to a carrier, I'll bet; and at a higher price.
04:20:16 <SgeoN1> And I guess AT&T won't offer it
04:21:08 <alise> That's a good thing
04:21:10 <SgeoN1> Although maybe I should have been patient and waited for the EVO
04:21:53 <alise> It's too big! And Sprint-only.
04:23:05 <SgeoN1> My dad said he'd be willing to switch to Sprint
04:23:49 <alise> Then do so! Sprint are the best network around.
04:24:08 <alise> That's my advice. The EVO will be nice, if you have hands big enough. Although apparently Sense isn't all that hot. Eh. You'll figure something out.
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04:24:27 <alise> I suppose I'll probably dream of typography and H2G2 now. Should be interesting. Bye!
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05:03:56 <Gregor-L> AnMaster, pikhq and anybody else who might care: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-wipp1.ogg
05:04:36 <pikhq> Wait, op13? What of op12?
05:04:45 <Gregor-L> I'm scavenging the good parts.
05:05:00 <Gregor-L> Including the beginning, lest ye be confused :P
05:05:03 <pikhq> So, op13 is your 12th opus.
05:05:25 <Gregor-L> Some people like to skip the number 13, I'm skipping the number 12 instead.
05:05:58 <pikhq> Anyways. Y'know what's totally awesome for learning a foreign language?
05:06:01 <pikhq> Watching shows in it.
05:06:07 <Sgeo> A bit jarring a bit before 1:30
05:06:32 <Gregor-L> Sgeo: Yes, that is intentional :P
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10:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Zooming in on the Sierpinski Gasket is oddly difficult.
10:10:04 <oerjan> you keep hitting the empty spots? :)
10:11:22 <oerjan> maybe it's about dimension - i vaguely recall the mandelbrot border has hausdorff dimension 2, or something
10:11:38 <oerjan> (despite being a curve)
10:11:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:11:57 <oerjan> while the sierpinski gasket has less
10:12:10 <oerjan> so that might make the mandelbrot border easier to hit
10:12:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's because the iterative process that makes the Sierpinski Gasket causes the filled-in areas to peter away to nothing.
10:13:29 <oerjan> oh you mean it's not drawing it perfectly? or something else
10:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's because when you cut out the middle triangles, the filled-in area is 3/4 of what it was before.
10:14:19 <oerjan> it shouldn't be two hard to zoom in perfectly - it looks locally everywhere like a sierpinski gasket, or two joined in a corner
10:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> So carrying on ad infinitum causes the filled-in bits to approach 0.
10:14:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes. but that's precisely what makes it have dimension < 2
10:15:39 <oerjan> i guess there's lot of combinatorics in it
10:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The even and odd numbers in Pascal's Triangle are in a pattern similar to the Sierpinski Gasket.
10:18:16 <oerjan> hm i guess that makes sense, if odds are at corners
10:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So logically, Pascal's Triangle contains infinitely more evens than odds.
10:18:59 <oerjan> well to get an odd number in the pascal's triangle, one of the parents must be odd
10:19:56 <oerjan> so if you have an all-even range, most of it is preserved on the next step
10:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So you would get large blocks of evens being encroached by odds as you move downwards.
10:20:11 <oerjan> while an all-odd range turns nearly all-even
10:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC if you use a 1D automaton on a triangular grid where each cell is the XOR of the two above it, you get the gasket.
10:21:44 <oerjan> ah yes. come to think of it, i am sure i've tested that out some time.
10:23:43 <oerjan> (for one thing, i once went through all 2-cell 2-value 1d automata (well there are just 16 and some are isomorphic) to see how easy the long term behavior was to predict
10:24:27 <oerjan> and XOR and its equivalent dual (EQV ?) were the hardest since it needed summing binomials
10:25:09 <oerjan> (by predict, i mean calculating without simulating all intermediate steps)
10:26:55 <oerjan> (isomorphic = equivalent, using mathspeak here)
10:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> You can get Sierpinskiesque behaviour in Life, under certain circumstances.
10:28:50 <oerjan> "The Hausdorff dimension of the boundary of the Mandelbrot set equals 2 as determined by a result of Mitsuhiro Shishikura."
10:30:01 <oerjan> hm i recall some discussion previously on the channel that made a sierpinski gasket using a long line
10:30:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, in Life superstrings (very long orthogonal lines of cells) create a messy gasket.
10:36:14 <oerjan> <uorygl> `translatefromto jp [...] <-- i think that's ja not jp?
10:45:57 <oerjan> <Quadrescence> AnMaster: Who is german in here <-- jix is
10:46:52 <oerjan> not precisely active though
10:49:01 <AnMaster> * [jix] idle 95:00:38, signon: Wed May 12 12:47:44 <-- nice idle time
10:51:26 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> So logically, Pascal's Triangle contains infinitely more evens than odds. <-- hm, but aren't there an infinite number of both?
10:51:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
10:52:12 <AnMaster> if so I would like to see a proof of that
10:52:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, then there can't be infinitely more evens than odds can it?
10:52:48 <oerjan> there is also density to consider
10:53:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, but you can get a bijection of the even and the odds in Pascal's triangle, no?
10:53:22 <oerjan> although being similar to sierpinski's triangle, it probably fluctuates from 0 to 1 and back
10:53:37 <oerjan> well of course, they're both infinite and countable
10:54:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, can't you get a bijection between uncountable of same cardinality?
10:54:14 <oerjan> in fact it goes from all odd to all but 2 even in one step, perhaps 2^n-1 to 2^n rows?
10:54:31 <oerjan> of course you can, that's the definition of same cardinality
10:54:49 <oerjan> but there's only one countably infinite cardinality
10:57:46 <oerjan> !haskell let pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt] in take 16 pt
10:58:00 <EgoBot> [[1],[1,1],[1,2,1],[1,3,3,1],[1,4,6,4,1],[1,5,10,10,5,1],[1,6,15,20,15,6,1],[1,7,21,35,35,21,7,1],[1,8,28,56,70,56,28,8,1],[1,9,36,84,126,126,84,36,9,1],[1,10,45,120,210,252,210,120,45,10,1],[1,11,55,165,330,462,462,330,165,55,11,1],[1,12,66,220,495,792,924,792,495,220,66,12,1],[1,13,78,286,715,1287,1716,1716,1287,715,286,78,13,1],[1,14,91,364,1001,2002,3003,3432,3003,2002,1001,364,91,14,1],[1,15,105,455,1365,3003,5005,6435,6435,5005,3003,1365,455,105,
10:59:08 <AnMaster> Quadrescence, was that supposed to be a joke?
10:59:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: if you look at those rows, numbered from 0, then the 2^n-1 rows are all odd and the 2^n are all even except the 1's at the end
11:00:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, are there rows with mixed odd/evens in the middle?
11:00:44 <oerjan> um all the other rows have both even and odd i believe
11:01:04 <oerjan> oh and the p'th row for a prime p has all but the ends divisible by p, i recall
11:01:56 <oerjan> hm it certainly _looks_ like row 9 has all divisible by 3, maybe it's a p^n thing
11:02:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, or maybe it is just coincidence?
11:02:41 <oerjan> well it's not coincidence for p^1 or 2^n
11:03:02 <oerjan> well let's check a few more
11:04:03 <oerjan> !haskell let pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt] in take 100 $ map (foldl1' gcd) pt
11:04:31 <oerjan> !haskell pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl1' gcd) pt
11:04:55 <oerjan> !haskell pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl' gcd 0) pt
11:05:18 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl' gcd 0) pt
11:05:21 <EgoBot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
11:05:39 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl' gcd 0) (init.tail$pt)
11:05:42 <EgoBot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
11:06:01 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl' lcm 0) (init.tail$pt)
11:06:10 <EgoBot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
11:06:22 <copumpkin> !haskell main = print $ iterate (\row -> zipWith (+) ([0] ++ row) (row ++ [0])) [1]
11:06:49 <oerjan> why the _heck_ are they defining that as 0
11:07:08 <oerjan> it's far more useful to have lcm 0 n as n
11:07:10 <copumpkin> !haskell iterate (\row -> zipWith (+) ([0] ++ row) (row ++ [0])) [1]
11:07:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is programming not math. Even if it is haskell...
11:07:35 <oerjan> copumpkin: EgoBot does not handle infinite output well
11:07:45 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl1' lcm) (init.tail$pt)
11:07:56 <copumpkin> !haskell main = print . take 100 $ iterate (\row -> zipWith (+) ([0] ++ row) (row ++ [0])) [1]
11:08:18 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl1' gcd) (init.tail$pt)
11:08:18 <AnMaster> hm I think stderr goes to /dev/null for egobot
11:08:20 <EgoBot> [1,2,3,12,10,60,105,280,252,2520,2310,27720,25740,24024,45045,720720,680680,12252240,11639628,11085360,10581480,232792560,223092870,1070845776,1029659400,2974571600,2868336900,80313433200,77636318760,2329089562800,4512611027925,4375865239200,4247163320400,4125815796960,4011209802600,144403552893600,140603459396400,136998242488800,133573286426580,5342931457063200,5215718803323600,219060189739591200,214081549063691400,209324181306720480,20477365562613960
11:08:22 <EgoBot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
11:08:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, what was the second line?
11:09:06 <AnMaster> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl1' gcd) (init.tail$pt)
11:09:09 <EgoBot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
11:09:18 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 . zipWith [0..] $ map (foldl1' gcd) (init.tail$pt)
11:09:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, see I pasted your line above
11:09:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't claim that the 1,1,1,1... line arrived first at your end
11:10:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, was it supposed to happen though?
11:10:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually i was confused by the fact i _made_ the 1,1,1,1... line first and thought it had timed out
11:10:52 <copumpkin> the question remains of who generated the 1,2,3,12 then
11:11:00 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 . zip [0..] $ map (foldl1' gcd) (init.tail$pt)
11:11:04 <oerjan> copumpkin: that was mine
11:11:04 <EgoBot> [(0,1),(1,1),(2,1),(3,1),(4,1),(5,1),(6,1),(7,1),(8,1),(9,1),(10,1),(11,1),(12,1),(13,1),(14,1),(15,1),(16,1),(17,1),(18,1),(19,1),(20,1),(21,1),(22,1),(23,1),(24,1),(25,1),(26,1),(27,1),(28,1),(29,1),(30,1),(31,1),(32,1),(33,1),(34,1),(35,1),(36,1),(37,1),(38,1),(39,1),(40,1),(41,1),(42,1),(43,1),(44,1),(45,1),(46,1),(47,1),(48,1),(49,1),(50,1),(51,1),(52,1),(53,1),(54,1),(55,1),(56,1),(57,1),(58,1),(59,1),(60,1),(61,1),(62,1),(63,1),(64,1),(65,1),(66
11:11:21 <AnMaster> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 $ map (foldl1' lcm) (init.tail$pt)
11:11:25 <EgoBot> [1,2,3,12,10,60,105,280,252,2520,2310,27720,25740,24024,45045,720720,680680,12252240,11639628,11085360,10581480,232792560,223092870,1070845776,1029659400,2974571600,2868336900,80313433200,77636318760,2329089562800,4512611027925,4375865239200,4247163320400,4125815796960,4011209802600,144403552893600,140603459396400,136998242488800,133573286426580,5342931457063200,5215718803323600,219060189739591200,214081549063691400,209324181306720480,20477365562613960
11:11:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, so did you find out the 9th row thing yet?
11:12:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, couldn't you just check 3 or 4 cases by hand?
11:12:24 <oerjan> the next case that's at all interesting is 25
11:12:30 <oerjan> so no, i wouldn't like that
11:12:41 <copumpkin> but was too lazy to fix it, it's past 6am :)
11:12:51 <AnMaster> copumpkin, yes it is. It is 12:12
11:13:08 <AnMaster> copumpkin, heck it is past it a lot of times this year alone
11:13:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
11:13:19 <fungot> AnMaster: recent british literature, besides including the three or four greatest fantaisistes of the present is that it's too damned stupid to question the people around the station; but his attitude toward the matter was by this time have found the other neighboring gate to the abyss, and these dark ruins were in truth primordial sarkomand.
11:13:33 <fungot> AnMaster: as we proceeded. out the window i had left seemed involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next opening in the roof glittered the pale pole star, fluttering as if alive in the stone staircase had been encountered, and the
11:14:05 <AnMaster> hm copumpkin are you (relatively) new here or?
11:14:25 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 10 . zip [0..] $ pt
11:14:28 <EgoBot> [(0,[1]),(1,[1,1]),(2,[1,2,1]),(3,[1,3,3,1]),(4,[1,4,6,4,1]),(5,[1,5,10,10,5,1]),(6,[1,6,15,20,15,6,1]),(7,[1,7,21,35,35,21,7,1]),(8,[1,8,28,56,70,56,28,8,1]),(9,[1,9,36,84,126,126,84,36,9,1])]
11:14:37 <AnMaster> copumpkin, nah no issue, just wasn't able to find your nick in my mental lookup table
11:14:38 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 10 . zip [0..] $ (init.tail$pt)
11:14:41 <EgoBot> [(0,[1,1]),(1,[1,2,1]),(2,[1,3,3,1]),(3,[1,4,6,4,1]),(4,[1,5,10,10,5,1]),(5,[1,6,15,20,15,6,1]),(6,[1,7,21,35,35,21,7,1]),(7,[1,8,28,56,70,56,28,8,1]),(8,[1,9,36,84,126,126,84,36,9,1]),(9,[1,10,45,120,210,252,210,120,45,10,1])]
11:15:16 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . take 100 . zip [0..] $ map (foldl1' gcd . init . tail) pt
11:15:22 <EgoBot> [(0,input.26654.hs: Prelude.init: empty list
11:15:38 <copumpkin> is there usually this much haskell in here?
11:15:39 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . drop . take 100 . zip [0..] $ map (foldl1' gcd . init . tail) pt
11:15:56 <AnMaster> copumpkin, varies widely. But usually oerjan can figure out a working command faster than that
11:16:07 <AnMaster> copumpkin, btw fungot is written in befunge98 in case you didn't know
11:16:08 <fungot> AnMaster: " then you're not sure. you saw the fnord ancient and fnord rock strata fully verified all of lakes bulletins, and proved that these pinnacles had been towering up in exactly the same, that door's coming open," i answered, " i can't tell you yet which it was called. the being is spoken of as holding all knowledge, and its
11:16:09 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
11:17:04 <AnMaster> copumpkin, oh and oerjan is our resident mathematician
11:17:33 <copumpkin> I come from #haskell, so I'm used to being surrounded by them
11:17:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm trying to demonstrate something, just messing up the code
11:17:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, of mathematician? Ask him, I don't remember... I saw some paper he had written once iirc. Didn't understand one sentence of it :P
11:18:09 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . drop . drop . take 100 . zip [0..] $ map (foldl1' gcd . init . tail) pt
11:18:24 <oerjan> why the _heck_ is that a type error
11:18:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it? where does egobot say so?
11:20:01 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; pt = [1]:[zipWith(+)(0:r)(r++[0])|r <- pt]; main = print . drop 2 . take 100 . zip [0..] $ map (foldl1' gcd . init . tail) pt
11:20:05 <EgoBot> [(2,2),(3,3),(4,2),(5,5),(6,1),(7,7),(8,2),(9,3),(10,1),(11,11),(12,1),(13,13),(14,1),(15,1),(16,2),(17,17),(18,1),(19,19),(20,1),(21,1),(22,1),(23,23),(24,1),(25,5),(26,1),(27,3),(28,1),(29,29),(30,1),(31,31),(32,2),(33,1),(34,1),(35,1),(36,1),(37,37),(38,1),(39,1),(40,1),(41,41),(42,1),(43,43),(44,1),(45,1),(46,1),(47,47),(48,1),(49,7),(50,1),(51,1),(52,1),(53,53),(54,1),(55,1),(56,1),(57,1),(58,1),(59,59),(60,1),(61,61),(62,1),(63,1),(64,2),(65,1),(
11:20:27 <oerjan> ok it's true for 25 and 49
11:20:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, but not for most other ones?
11:20:56 <oerjan> those are the only untested squares of primes in that list
11:21:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, why not just take the first 100 relevant numbers or such?
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11:22:02 * Phantom_Hoover notices that most c/4 diagonal Life spaceships seem to be glider tagalongs
11:22:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: because i'm having trouble enough making a list of all the gcd's
11:22:58 <copumpkin> what are you trying to compute? I think I missed the beginning of this
11:23:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm testing the theory that all elements of the p^n'th row of pascal's triangle other than the 1's are divisible by p for a prime p
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11:23:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't know how to filter on prime powers easily
11:23:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, so not just squares but ^3 and ^4 and so on too?
11:23:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, check if each number is a power of a prime?
11:24:00 <oerjan> also it's just for primes, 36 breaks as you can see
11:24:02 <AnMaster> might not be a one-liner any more...
11:24:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's horrible to do, i think
11:24:19 <copumpkin> there's a really short way to get primes :P
11:24:29 <copumpkin> prime powers in order probably requires more work though
11:24:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: it requires factorization?
11:24:54 <oerjan> it would be easier to generate all than test for them directly
11:24:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, well sure it isn't fast, but for numbers of reasonable size it can't be too hard
11:25:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not a one-liner
11:25:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, after all something like the command line tool factor is fast for (random example) 347772662826551
11:26:12 <AnMaster> 347772662826551 is a prime apparently
11:26:50 <AnMaster> 987326589764578281478231293 is fast but 9873265897645782814782312932 takes several seconds
11:27:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm trying to demonstrate, not check for myself. also a factor program would obviously use advanced algorithms
11:27:29 <AnMaster> maybe because it has two large prime factors instead of one much larger and many small?
11:27:41 <AnMaster> $ factor 987326589764578281478231293
11:27:41 <AnMaster> 987326589764578281478231293: 3 3 7 47 32265841 10334261253277693
11:27:42 <AnMaster> $ factor 9873265897645782814782312932
11:27:42 <AnMaster> 9873265897645782814782312932: 2 2 8005230950461 308337946735853
11:27:59 <oerjan> testing small divisors is much easier
11:28:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is still impressive that this just takes a few seconds on an old Sempron...
11:28:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, yet finding out that 10334261253277693 is prime didn't take a lot of time
11:28:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't haskell have some built in factoring thingy?
11:28:59 <AnMaster> mathematicians made it after all...
11:29:00 <oerjan> no prime testing has easy algorithms
11:29:18 <oerjan> _good_ factoring is _hard_
11:29:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, but surely there is import Something.Prime?
11:29:33 <oerjan> oh something on hackage, probably
11:29:39 <oerjan> it's not a _core_ feature
11:29:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah not part of the haskell platform?
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11:30:33 <oerjan> time to google or wikipedia, i think
11:31:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway the "semi-naive" way of doing this would be generating all primes up to, say, 500 using sieve of E., then trying a number of powers for them, say 2..20
11:31:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, this shouldn't be too bad complexity
11:32:54 <oerjan> well i'm passing on to checking references at this point
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11:35:42 <oerjan> "It can be deduced from this that (n; k) is divisible by n/gcd(n,k)
11:36:33 <oerjan> ok if n is a prime power then gcd(n,k) is less when k is not 0 or n
11:36:55 <oerjan> so n/gcd(n,k) must contain at least one factor of the prime
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11:38:01 <oerjan> (i couldn't paste the wp gif...)
11:38:47 <oerjan> "A somewhat surprising result by David Singmaster (1974) is that any integer divides almost all binomial coefficients."
11:38:59 <MizardX> (n; k) = n!/(k!*(n-k)!). n! | n, and k! | gcd(n,k), so (n; k) | n/gcd(n,k)
11:39:00 <oerjan> that's relevant to the odd/even case too
11:39:58 <oerjan> MizardX: are you writing those | backwards?
11:40:15 <oerjan> (well the first one at least)
11:40:53 <MizardX> a | b = a is dividable by b ... dunno if that is the normal order
11:41:03 <oerjan> no that's the opposite
11:42:01 <oerjan> and you still have the middle one reversed from the rest
11:42:16 <MizardX> (n; k) = n!/(k!*(n-k)!). n | n!, and gcd(n,k) | k, so n/gcd(n,k) | (n; k)
11:42:46 <oerjan> i don't think that's a correct proof fwiw
11:44:31 <AnMaster> (wrt: <oerjan> "A somewhat surprising result by David Singmaster (1974) is that any integer divides almost all binomial coefficients.")
11:45:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_coefficient#Divisibility_properties
11:46:56 <oerjan> MizardX: you have a | b and c | d => ac | bd but what you're doing doesn't fit into that
11:50:30 <oerjan> (and anyway there's no way you can get this while ignoring the (n-k)! part)
11:53:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: ok, basically you take the first n rows, and count the fraction of that part of the triangle that is divisible by d. as n -> infinity, that fraction goes to 1.
11:54:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, and d is selected to be?
11:54:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean if d > n then the fraction will be 0
11:54:59 <oerjan> you take the limit of n while keeping d fixed
11:55:09 <oerjan> so d << n most certainly in the limit
11:55:30 <oerjan> (well any nonzero integer)
11:55:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, right, if d = 1 then the fraction is 1
11:55:47 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
11:56:00 <oerjan> it's true for _all_ nonzero d.
11:56:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, hey, degenerate cases are fun
11:58:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, also I love how a circle is defined in terms of a cone and a cone is defined in terms of a circle
11:58:58 <oerjan> i will have none of your circular definitions!
12:01:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm wikipedia says "An integer n ≥ 2 is prime if and only if all the intermediate binomial coefficients $\binom n 1, \binom n 2, \ldots, \binom n{n-1}$ are divisible by n."
12:01:19 <AnMaster> (nice that the tex copies from the image
12:01:31 <AnMaster> (even though I had to replace two newlines with a $ on either side)
12:04:01 <MizardX> Anti-proof: 2/1 !| 2/(1*2)
12:06:26 <MizardX> ... of my claim of a proof
12:08:51 <oerjan> MizardX: oh i thought you had found a counterexample
12:09:08 <oerjan> but (2;1) = 2 so that's fine
12:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> With Life, it'd really have to be anti-physics, though.
12:11:55 <oerjan> life breaks down quite frequently
12:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But there are some things which should be consolidated into an abstract theory.
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12:17:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw I saw yesterday something mentioned about a wireworld variant that could "grow" new wires
12:18:03 <AnMaster> iirc self replication was possible
12:19:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, didn't check the details
12:19:37 <AnMaster> was somewhere on googlecode, some golly-rule-repo thingy
12:19:55 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/p/ruletablerepository/ from browser history
12:20:11 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/p/ruletablerepository/wiki/TheRules#WireWorld_and_derivatives
12:21:29 <AnMaster> not sure if it is included by default
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12:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Golly 2.1 gives access to online repositoried.
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13:59:13 <alise> Why does nobody print 1 as the I-type symbol any more?
13:59:18 <alise> I see it universally in old mathematical texts.
14:05:54 <alise> No, no, they're printed like Is.
14:06:04 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/25/Quadrature_of_Circle_Cajori_1919.png
14:06:06 <alise> Look at the 1s here.
14:06:11 <alise> It isn't confusing!
14:08:28 <alise> Computer Modern certainly doesn't have that 1.
14:08:34 <alise> Nor does AMS Euler or any of the common mathematical fonts.
14:08:48 <alise> Or indeed any text fonts I know.
14:13:04 <alise> Like the regular 1 you see all the time.
14:13:18 <alise> Slanty top bit, serifed bottom bit.
14:13:21 <alise> Instead of serifed top and bottom bit.
14:13:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:15:02 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Pm1234_Euler1755_I-V.png
14:15:14 <alise> Here is some text which shows it better; older, too; vintage 1755 Euler.
14:15:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:16:21 * Phantom_Hoover notices that Golly has a script that supports 3D Life.
14:22:57 <alise> <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Pm1234_Euler1755_I-V.png
14:22:57 <alise> <alise> Here is some text which shows it better; older, too; vintage 1755 Euler.
14:23:14 <alise> Does it scale up the neighbour stuff based on the dimensions or just keep it the same (which would be silly)?
14:23:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The script does the calculations, then draws the universe on a 2D CA>
14:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It's also fantastically slow, and they keys are unintuitive.
14:31:31 <alise> And I assume that the display is not very easy to see.
14:32:31 <alise> If there was an easy 3D library I'd make a proper 3D Life.
14:32:37 <alise> But, there is not.
14:32:41 <alise> Or at least, not that I know of.
14:33:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hey do you know of any like big huge collections of interesting life patterns i could dump in a folder and have golly recognise?
14:33:13 <alise> downloading separate .rle files is so meh
14:36:02 <alise> Meh. Not fast enough.
14:36:51 <alise> Does Golly understand the organisation?
14:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC you can just dump the decompressed directory into the Patterns directory and Golly can read it.
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14:37:58 <maedhros777> Does anyone here know how to output a number in Brainfuck?
14:38:40 <alise> I think there's something on the Brainfuck algorithms page on the wiki for that.
14:39:08 <alise> Well, this is divmod: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm
14:39:22 <alise> And a one or two digit number in decimal is just two divmods.
14:39:39 <alise> Admittedly you will need a lookup table.
14:39:55 <maedhros777> That's a long algorithm, though -- this is for a golf problem
14:40:39 <maedhros777> Actually...i could do it by checking if a cell is equal to 9, then put it in the next cell if it is
14:41:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, do you know what's the longest period oscillator? I know there's >200 but it has no page on LifeWiki.
14:41:38 <alise> I also wonder what the slowest spaceship is. Probably that replicator + a deletion machine, but that's chaeting :-)
14:43:51 <alise> Is there any "pulsating" spaceship? I mean something that moves like a slug; it contracts, then expands out again, slightly further forward.
14:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Though it tends to be on the order of one or two cells.
14:44:51 <alise> I was imagining this big slug getting all tiny.
14:45:02 <alise> (I thought you meant a one-to-two cell spaceship for a second there, and got really confused.)
14:47:30 <alise> Golly's default collection is so tiny, urgh
14:47:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So has anyone emulated a non-Lifelike CA in Life?
14:48:07 <alise> I'm imagining one of those dot-matrix-printer type dealies printing each line of CA as it goes, then somehow "scanning" the printed output to do the next generation.
14:48:48 <alise> But that's 2D, anyway.
14:49:34 <alise> GOL is so rich, I'd like to life in a life simulation
14:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> A vanilla cell, the metapixels and the Deep Cell, which simulates two universes at once.
14:50:48 <alise> Why simulate two at once? I'm curious.
14:51:27 <alise> Also, I don't have the metapixel in my golly version :( just a 512x512 one and the deep ceel
14:52:03 <alise> Memory storage still sucks in Life, yeah?
14:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The Spartan UCC has unlimited-size registers, I think.
14:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a script in Python that converts normal Life patterns into metapixels.
14:53:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I meant as far as speed and stuff goes.
14:54:05 <alise> It'd be nice to have a Turing-machine style tape where the head can move at lightspeed.
14:54:26 <alise> (And thus retrieve things from memory and give them back to the main computer at lightspeed.)
14:54:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, IMO that sucks :P
14:54:32 <alise> Lightspeed is awesome
14:55:04 <alise> We must harness the powah!
14:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> There isn't even a way to turn a practical lightspeed signal around a corner, yet.
14:56:01 <alise> But you can have a lightspeed tunnel that emits and takes sub-lightspeed gliders, yeah?
14:56:31 <alise> I don't know; I'm just asking.
14:56:38 <alise> I assume it's possible. Otherwise it isn't really communication.
14:56:53 <alise> So have stretches of LHC^Wlightspeed tunnel for as long as you can make them, then into a sub-light-speed cornering device, which then feeds the gliders into another straight lightspeed tunnel.
14:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> As I said yesterday, no-one has come up with a usable diagonal lightspeed wire.
14:57:07 <alise> A lightspeed tunnel
14:57:11 <alise> you feed in spaceships
14:57:17 <alise> bits are transmitted at lightspeed
14:57:22 <alise> then come out the other end as spaceships
14:57:36 <alise> All you need is a horizontal and vertical one of these, plus a very simple take-in-spaceship-and-emit-a-new-one-diagonally piece
14:57:41 <Phantom_Hoover> And yes, you can take the signal out of lightspeed to turn a corner, but the signal circuitry required would be huge, complex and slow.
14:57:43 <alise> Then just plug them together; voila, turner-corning.
14:57:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So exiting lightspeed is difficult?
14:58:03 <alise> How is it really communication then, if everything has to go at light speed?
14:58:12 <alise> Circuitry can't always operate that quickly.
14:58:20 <alise> I guess this is why lightspeed is chaotic.
14:58:53 <alise> "Here is a sample Herschel-based oscillator with a 12-digit-prime period" ;; whoa
14:58:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I saw it but did not understand it or run it.
15:00:23 <alise> What is the latest Golly?
15:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The version in the Ubuntu repositories is ancient, BtW.
15:00:52 <alise> Okay, so I can see the lightspeed telegraph and it looks like the LHC.
15:00:56 <alise> I don't understand it though.
15:02:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Should I upgrade?
15:02:49 <alise> Also, the telegraph appears to have some sort of latency; after sending one blip of information, you must wait until it repairs itself to send another.
15:02:52 <alise> So it's not really lightspeed, is it?
15:02:58 <alise> For one bit, sure, but not sustained.
15:05:04 <alise> Heh, the machinery looks beautiful on hyperspeed.
15:05:40 <alise> If you zoom in you can see the cable jittering.
15:05:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so I should upgrade Golly yeah?
15:13:12 <alise> [ ]golly_2.1-1.diff.gz09-May-2010 16:06 11K
15:13:13 <alise> [ ]golly_2.1-1.dsc09-May-2010 16:06 1.1K
15:13:13 <alise> [ ]golly_2.1-1_amd64.deb12-May-2010 13:05 2.0M
15:13:13 <alise> [ ]golly_2.1-1_i386.deb10-May-2010 12:05 1.9M
15:13:13 <alise> [ ]golly_2.1.orig.tar.gz09-May-2010 16:06 2.3M
15:14:54 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~$ sudo dpkg -i --force-depends-version golly_2.1-1_amd64.deb
15:14:55 <alise> (Reading database ... 331562 files and directories currently installed.)
15:14:55 <alise> Preparing to replace golly 2.1-1 (using golly_2.1-1_amd64.deb) ...
15:14:55 <alise> Unpacking replacement golly ...
15:14:55 <alise> dpkg: golly: dependency problems, but configuring anyway as you request:
15:14:55 <alise> golly depends on libperl5.10 (>= 5.10.1); however:
15:14:59 <alise> Version of libperl5.10 on system is 5.10.0-19ubuntu1.1.
15:15:01 <alise> golly depends on libwxbase2.8-0 (>= 2.8.10.1); however:
15:15:03 <alise> Version of libwxbase2.8-0 on system is 2.8.9.1-0ubuntu6.
15:15:05 <alise> golly depends on libwxgtk2.8-0 (>= 2.8.10.1); however:
15:15:07 <alise> Version of libwxgtk2.8-0 on system is 2.8.9.1-0ubuntu6.
15:19:27 * alise just compiles golly herself
15:19:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so a 3D life would use voxels, right?
15:21:32 <alise> http://www.ibiblio.org/e-notes/Life/Gliders.htm Gliders in 3D Life
15:22:52 <alise> 3D Life seems quite chaotic on random patterns.
15:22:56 <alise> A universe of insanity.
15:23:14 <uorygl> Surely there are multiple ways to 3Dify Life.
15:23:21 <alise> http://fbim.fh-regensburg.de/~saj39122/doefe/ another 3D Life
15:23:56 <alise> uorygl: only one obvious way; instead of (x,y) have (x,y,z); use 3D instead of 2D neighbours; and scale up the birth/death numbers accordingly
15:24:19 <uorygl> Well, yes, but there are multiple ways to choose those numbers.
15:25:44 <alise> Divide by 8, multiply by 26. Perhaps that's naive.
15:25:58 <uorygl> It is naive, but it may work. :P
15:26:16 * uorygl ponders spelling that naïve simply because he can.
15:26:29 <alise> The main issue is nice visualisation and editing.
15:26:35 <alise> Nave is a nice spelling.
15:28:06 <uorygl> Is crème brûlée a nice spelling?
15:28:59 <uorygl> Is that just a different spelling of the English word 'role', as in "What is his role in this ordeal?"?
15:29:12 <alise> His rle in the proceedings was primarily to mess everything up; he was too nave to handle his responsibility.
15:30:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Python doesn't work with Golly on 64-bit machines. Will this be a problem?
15:30:49 -!- Warrior` has joined.
15:31:06 <alise> Oh noes a Warrior`
15:31:13 <alise> Who is pronounced only slightly differently to wareya
15:31:30 <alise> Another person in here; more to the point, who are you?
15:31:33 <uorygl> And significantly differently from Warrigal.
15:31:57 <alise> It's a relatively simple question; what brings you here?
15:32:08 <alise> Well, that's reasonable.
15:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: IIRC, you need to change the location of the Python .so files sometimes.
15:32:29 <alise> I was about to fire off the procedural "we're not about magick or any other kind of esoterica" but I don't suppose anyone in #brainfuck would be looking for that.
15:32:34 <alise> Unless they took the channel name a bit too literally.
15:32:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: one of the symbols is named diferently in the 64-bit one
15:32:53 <Warrior`> #brainfuck theres a refrence about #esoteric
15:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> That would fit, given that we are ostensibly the umbrella channel for all esoteric languages.
15:33:53 <alise> But only ostensibly, mind.
15:34:03 <alise> Although I guess our current topic, the Game of Life, basically counts as an esolang.
15:34:10 <alise> More like an esouniverse, but there you go.
15:35:11 <alise> I have. As I said, I saw it, and it looked like the LHC; but I didn't understand it.
15:35:17 <alise> It certainly didn't seem to do anything with the information being transmitted.
15:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It does transmit a LWSS, but it's extremely inefficient.
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15:39:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I found something wonderful wrt. panoramic photos. A (possibly) cheap way to do panoramic head. It depends on if you have the needed stuff already, I happen to have that. Lots of it in fact. Will tell you more when you respond :P
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15:50:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so efficient lightspeed transmission is an open problem.
15:50:55 <alise> How hard can it be?
15:51:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not finding stable signals that's the problem, it's getting them into a manipulable form.
15:52:24 <alise> So, basically, the problem is that the way the signals are transmitted is chaotic
15:53:34 * alise gawps at metapixel-p216-gun
15:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Most of the LST's overhead comes from the fact that 10 signals are necessary per bit, and the tape needs to be repaired afterwards
15:53:36 <alise> It's... so huge...
15:53:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes; I bet real lightspeed communication is impossible.
15:54:00 <alise> Because of the latency, the lag between signals.
15:54:04 <alise> You can send one bit at lightspeed, sure.
15:54:10 <alise> But sustained communication won't be at lightspeed.
15:54:59 <alise> has anyone used a metapixel to run a metapixel?
15:57:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What do you think about my conjecture that true sustained lightspeed communication is impossible?
15:57:15 <alise> Maybe we could do something like quantum entanglement with a very long wire.
15:57:39 <alise> Admittedly, lightspeed != instant, but if we can recognise a very small group of cells and keep the "connector" which switches them far enough away not to interfere...
15:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> By true sustained lightspeed communication do you mean sending data or processing?
15:59:13 <alise> I meant sending; there's lag between sending lightspeed communications due to repair.
15:59:21 <alise> So I bet that the maximum /sustained/ speed is far less than c, because of the lag.
16:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The LST can send repeatedly along the same wire; it only needs to repair a fixed length.
16:00:47 <alise> Yes, but if you monitor the right end: a blip gets fired, the wire is fucked up for a few generations, then it reforms, /then/ the next blip hits it.
16:00:52 <alise> There's that lag between sending two blips.
16:00:56 <alise> That lag is significantly slower than c.
16:01:05 <alise> So /sustained/ communication - non-stop, constant communication - cannot happen at c.
16:02:22 <uorygl> Well, what's non-stop, constant communication?
16:02:35 <uorygl> At best, you can transmit information only once per generation.
16:04:05 <uorygl> And it doesn't make any sense to say "that lag is significantly slower than c". That lag is measured in time per information sent, not time per distance.
16:04:19 <alise> Consider that we have a certain machine that, with the appropriate communication mechanism, wants to set one blip per generation going off.
16:04:35 <alise> You can't do this, since after setting one blip off, it takes several generations for the wire to repair itself sufficiently to accept another blip.
16:04:37 <uorygl> Then it can just use a bunch of these lightspeed telegraphs.
16:04:52 <uorygl> No new technology is required.
16:05:05 <alise> I'm trying to think of an occasion where it would need an infinite amount of them but I can't. Fair enough.
16:05:17 * alise causes an accident in the LHC
16:05:24 <alise> Black holes are sucking up all the gliders!!!
16:05:37 <alise> They're spreading and demolishing the wire at both ends!!
16:06:27 <alise> Whoa, I think this thing is actually eating the tape away at lightspeed
16:06:41 <alise> Truly a black hole.
16:07:01 <alise> Ah, it's just an information packet going backwards
16:07:26 <alise> I like how it's turning the tape into nice little evenly-spaced oscillators.
16:07:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not an information packet, it just looks like it.
16:07:40 <alise> With gigantic gobs of dark matter every so often.
16:07:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: okay
16:08:06 <alise> The dark matter appears to be when the destroyer collides with an information packet.
16:08:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty impressive that it survives the collision, or rather gets rebuilt just after it
16:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's the natural way for a stretched line of beehives to burn.
16:08:52 -!- lament has joined.
16:08:59 <alise> The thing eating the wire away at lightspeed that looks exactly like a mirrored packet
16:09:30 <alise> Extraordinarily, the left piece of machinery is still trying to shoot out gliders
16:09:51 <alise> They're just being obliterated though.
16:10:08 <alise> Wait, this thing is eating the wire then pooping out oscillators.
16:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Interestingly, the ash of oscillators and still-lifes that is left behind when a pattern burns is very resilient.
16:11:19 <alise> I guess that is logic WHAT why did one of the oscillators appear one cell above the others
16:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I've tested it as a shielding material, and it can withstand a glider gun pointed at it.
16:11:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Heh
16:11:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I guess it makes sense
16:11:50 <alise> There was a bloody battle there, tons of cells fought it out; by definition, only those tough enough to survive chaotic conditions will remain at the end.
16:12:04 <alise> Otherwise they would have been destroyed. So it's a tautology that the debris of collisions is tough
16:12:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you're using naturally-made resources from the Field to reinforce your products.
16:12:40 <alise> "This strong material was formed from chaotic collisions millions of generations ago..."
16:12:59 <alise> "We mind it from a desolate part of the Inner Field and brought it to our products to make sure they have the best defences possible."
16:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It's impossible to synthesise, though, and creating it by burning junk would produce too many gliders to be safe.
16:14:12 <alise> Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it in a lab beforehand :-)
16:14:14 <alise> I just find it amusing.
16:14:21 <alise> How is it impossible to synthesise, though?
16:14:26 <alise> You mean while running the thing it's used in?
16:14:39 <alise> You could probably use a program to create a very resilient material.
16:14:47 <alise> The left side of the telegaph is now completely destroyed; just debris. It isn't even firing gliders any more.
16:15:10 <alise> The right side is as of yet undamaged, but the destroyer will reach it soon.
16:15:30 <uorygl> Wow, this looks really dangerous.
16:15:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The funny thing is, the right side hasn't had any idea of any of this happening :-)
16:15:46 <uorygl> There are a bunch of queen bees here; some of them are emitting gliders that are colliding with each other and producing fireballs.
16:15:54 <uorygl> However, every time, the fireballs die out before causing any damage.
16:15:59 <alise> At least, assuming observers in the Game of Life obey regular laws.
16:16:06 <alise> uorygl: Best. Movie. Ever.
16:16:15 <alise> Queen bees shooting space ships that explode into fireballs.
16:16:35 <uorygl> What's more, a random glider recently flew in and managed to not make the reaction destroy itself.
16:16:58 <alise> Pause it, screenshot it, post the rle.
16:17:11 <uorygl> Oh, and occasionally, it emits a glider toward some debris...
16:17:22 <uorygl> This has to be artificial. I'm betting that the original pattern contained this exact thing.
16:18:08 <uorygl> http://pastebin.com/HEHLhKxK
16:18:17 <uorygl> I don't know what format that is; let's hope it's RLE. :P
16:18:42 -!- tombom__ has joined.
16:18:47 <alise> I'll let Phantom_Hoover investigate.
16:19:03 <alise> The destroyer is almost at the first component of the right end.
16:19:10 <alise> But it didn't affect it!
16:19:14 <alise> Here's the big one.
16:19:43 <alise> The transmitter is no longer working.
16:19:49 <alise> Here comes the next wave of spaceships.
16:19:49 <uorygl> My, this is making a dramatic exit.
16:20:12 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
16:20:13 <uorygl> It's emitting a glider every few hundred generations, and that glider is hitting some debris, causing it to draw ever closer...
16:20:16 <alise> The machinery is ... surviving, gliders and spaceships are still coming.
16:20:24 <alise> It's spreading, though
16:21:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Firing spaceships at fire tends to make the fire travel up the stream.
16:21:03 <alise> All the little personnel operating this transmission station are going to die eventually.
16:21:14 * alise puts it on hyperspeed
16:21:19 <alise> Just normal speed.
16:21:31 -!- rodgort has joined.
16:21:36 <alise> Whoa, I made it go far too fast.
16:21:48 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:21:58 <alise> Well, spoiler, here's what happens to the right side: The entire machine is replaced by a bunch of oscillators and still lifes.
16:22:08 <alise> Complete oblivion. Even the bits at the outskirts.
16:22:51 <alise> I don't even know HOW it destroyed the bits at the outskirts.
16:22:57 <uorygl> This debris produced a ship right next to the machine's output.
16:23:06 <uorygl> I'm guessing that the next glider out will destroy the machine instantly.
16:23:16 <uorygl> Nope, it just deleted the boat.
16:23:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There is a known oscillator that looks like the sun, right?
16:24:03 <alise> Yeah, just didn't recognise it.
16:24:08 <alise> No, perhaps 4 period.
16:24:14 <uorygl> And the machine's dead, turned into a single glider gun!
16:24:22 <uorygl> Let's see whether its beam moves forward or backward.
16:24:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The oscillator that's a backwards S and a block and a little blip bats backwards and forwards, I like that one.
16:25:07 <alise> uorygl: is this queen-bee-turn.rle?
16:25:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat
16:25:17 <alise> Ooh, is it something unknown?
16:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's low period and in ash, then almost certainly no.
16:26:02 <alise> Somewhere in the vicinity of ~29-31.
16:26:10 <alise> Can't tell for sure; too complex.
16:26:51 <uorygl> alise: possibly; I don't know what that is.
16:26:55 <alise> WTF; it doesn't work out of context.
16:27:12 <alise> There are no alive cells near, but copying it to its own file makes it do something completely different.
16:27:31 <uorygl> I guess you're doing something wrong.
16:27:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, I'll give you the RLE it's in and the coords.
16:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's in DRH-oscillators, the information thing has a list of what they're all called.
16:28:28 <alise> It's in the debris.
16:28:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://filebin.ca/nmovkc/telegraph-in-peril.rle; there are multiple but the one I'm looking at is around XY= 308 1,392
16:32:33 <alise> Queen bees sure are popular today.
16:32:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How come copying it out doesn't work?
16:34:05 <alise> I wonder what I did wrong.
16:34:27 <alise> Are there any methuselahs that, after their lifespan, kill every one of their cells?
16:34:31 <alise> That would be cool.
16:34:34 <alise> Like a really, really long fuse.
16:35:15 <uorygl> Does Golly come with the Caterpillar?
16:35:54 <alise> How do you get it to download patterns like it said it could?
16:35:59 <alise> Also, yeah, I was thinking of that one.
16:37:08 <alise> http://holyspiritvictorious4ever.blogspot.com/2009/03/1111-phenomenon-links-2012-to-baghdad.html
16:37:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Help. Well that makes sense
16:37:35 <alise> is the lifewiki archive good?
16:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It's good for quick lookup of simple spaceships and oscillators.
16:38:25 <alise> Okay, I downloaded it; how do I install it?
16:38:28 <alise> Or does Golly not do that?
16:38:54 <Ilari> Caterpillar? That huge ship with odd speed?
16:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> If you click on patterns in the archive Golly loads them. Ilari: Yes.
16:39:48 <alise> Yes, but I want it in my breeders directory
16:39:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:40:20 <Ilari> Completely crazy: Caterpillar gun. :->
16:40:38 <alise> For every single one? No.
16:40:42 <alise> I'll just do it manually.
16:41:06 * alise organises Patterns folder into Golly and jslife
16:41:17 <Ilari> If one knows glider synthethis for some spaceship, can one transform that into gun for that spaceship?
16:41:36 <alise> It's just a restricted subset of a universal constructor, right?
16:41:42 <alise> Running in a loop using that synthesis.
16:41:54 <alise> So it's obviously possible, it's just a matter of making it... not a universal constructor-computer
16:42:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> any idea where fizzie may be? <alise> Running in a loop using that synthesis. <-- XD (yes I know it wasn't related, but...)
16:42:27 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:42:31 <alise> Cool, jslife/applications/unit110cell.lif.
16:42:34 <alise> Still not quite the nice output I'd like.
16:43:57 * uorygl scrolls through the Caterpillar at one-quarter scale using the down-arrow in Golly.
16:44:01 <Ilari> The idea I have for transforming glider synthethis into gun is to trace the pattern backwards into glider field and then use (high-perioid) glider guns plus reflectors to construct that field.
16:44:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: (10,2)c/10 -- what does /this/ notation mean?
16:44:28 <alise> I know Mc/N, but what is (X,Y)c/N?
16:44:36 <alise> It's a fuse; s-a bunch of 9s.lif.
16:45:03 <uorygl> It seems this ought to get up to speed pretty quickly.
16:45:21 <Ilari> Ah, its not a ship, ships can't have that high speed.
16:45:22 <AnMaster> <alise> Translates? <alise> As in rotates? <-- I thought translate == move x/y, not "rotate
16:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's a fuse, it's probably the period of the burning bit and how much it burns.
16:45:26 <alise> I love how straight lines make sierpinski triangles in Life.
16:45:41 <alise> Almost enough to make you believe Wolfram
16:46:08 <AnMaster> alise, they do? in the same line or?
16:46:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Straight lines are also the only things that can propagate into a vacuum at lightspeed.
16:46:18 <AnMaster> does it build one in a direction?
16:46:19 <alise> Just a straight line downwards creates two sierpinski triangles
16:46:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We discussed it here a while ago.
16:46:31 * uorygl runs the Caterpillar at hyperspeed.
16:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: The junk left behind is a Sierpinski triangle.
16:46:44 <alise> AnMaster: A slightly off-straight line makes a "mucky" Sierpinski triangle.
16:46:49 <Ilari> What's highest possible sum of velocities in directions for spaceship? 1/2 (LWSS, MWSS, HWSS and glider all have that velocity sum)?
16:46:57 <alise> This is made up of less defined debris, but still looks right.
16:47:04 <uorygl> Ilari: what makes that a sum?
16:47:14 <uorygl> In any case, yeah, 1/2 is the fastest possible spaceship.
16:47:18 <Ilari> uorygl: x and y component sum.
16:47:34 <uorygl> Then you might be able to go faster.
16:47:38 <alise> AnMaster: four or five or so
16:48:24 <Sgeo> http://gawker.com/5539717/steve-jobs-offers-world-freedom-from-porn?skyline=true&s=i
16:48:29 <alise> What's the RLE syntax for N-pixel down line?
16:48:50 * uorygl makes a little modification to the Caterpillar.
16:48:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, which generation? or some average over several?
16:49:08 <AnMaster> also is there any "straight line drawing" in golly
16:49:10 <uorygl> Naturally, this modification destroys it.
16:49:45 <Sgeo> Why is c/2 the fastest possible spaceship?
16:49:49 <alise> Sgeo: Because it is.
16:50:05 <alise> Sgeo: Jobs is a hardass, we know this. However listening to Gawker about anything is idiotic, especially as they knowingly bought a stolen next-gen iPhone to write a review, then were total dicks about it when everyone found out
16:50:08 <alise> Also, it simply is so.
16:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> A C spaceship is impossible on a non-toroidal universe.
16:51:38 <alise> Is this margin large enough to contain it?
16:51:43 <Ilari> How long caterpillar is front to back as its longest?
16:51:43 <alise> IRC is basically just distributed marginalia.
16:51:49 <alise> And yes, I just wanted an excuse to use the word marginalia.
16:51:49 <Sgeo> I was talking to a friend, mentioned how the SIM card is not in, and he suggests that I should have just bought an iPod Touch
16:52:11 <Sgeo> Bye in advance Phantom_Hoover
16:52:14 <alise> Sgeo: Well, he is wrong.
16:52:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I must be doing something wrong... I can't spot any sierpinski triangle...
16:52:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: When will you be back? I have so many irritating Life questions to ask you! :P
16:52:31 <alise> AnMaster: Is it totally straight and downwards? How long is it?
16:52:47 <AnMaster> alise, hm do golly allow you to measure that?
16:52:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: /Will/ you be back?
16:52:53 <alise> AnMaster: Just eyeball it.
16:53:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Today? IN FIVE YEARS?
16:53:20 <AnMaster> alise, population at generation 0 is 404
16:53:31 <AnMaster> and I draw maybe 50 cells then copy-pasted
16:53:38 <Sgeo> Hm, how far in advance can "Bye in advance" be said?
16:53:46 <Sgeo> Could I say bye in advance to alise right now?
16:54:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:54:46 <uorygl> Bye in advance, everyone.
16:54:54 <AnMaster> alise, how many generations does it take to see sierpinski, I let it run until it became stable mostly
16:54:54 <alise> AnMaster: give rle
16:54:55 <uorygl> I say this not because I plan to leave, but because I'm counting on you leaving.
16:55:00 <alise> AnMaster: like a few
16:55:38 <AnMaster> alise, it went stable around 30 000 generations (eye balling from fast speed) not a lot of sierpinski patterns there
16:56:05 <alise> you did something wrong
16:56:16 <AnMaster> wait not all still lifes, was doing acceleration still
16:57:02 <AnMaster> alise, is RLE text only? pastebin would be easiest
16:57:05 <alise> Here is a life-like rule for you all: B38/S23
16:58:02 <AnMaster> alise, hm wait there is a sierpinski-like patterns early on but it goes away quickly
16:58:10 <Ilari> I guess the maximum length is about 330 800. At 17c/45, it takes about 876 000 generations to travel its own length. Quite huge perioid for gun...
16:58:14 <alise> AnMaster: The Sierpinski is there, you just have not noticed it
16:58:20 <alise> Make a bigger line, then zoom out
16:58:27 * Sgeo wants to play Gish on a computer that can actually handle it
16:58:38 <AnMaster> alise, you know, it is very tedious to draw a straight line in golly
16:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> You can get RLEs in Golly with select/copy, and I must go now.
16:59:23 <AnMaster> yes but that was tricky to align
16:59:29 <Ilari> Worse, that would mean constructing glider gun with perioid of about 900 000 for caterpillar gun.
16:59:33 <AnMaster> alise, check that line after 5000 generations
17:01:01 <Sgeo> Bye Phantom_Hoover
17:02:10 <AnMaster> alise, okay I can see it early on while it is still growing now
17:02:50 <AnMaster> a bit harder to see it once it went stable... the pattern is "fuzzier" then
17:04:09 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:04:20 <alise> bye Phantom_Hoover
17:04:34 <alise> AnMaster: i think a slightly non-straight line (moves to the right one pixel at some point) gives the best results
17:05:01 <AnMaster> alise, is it possible to get one where it isn't cut in the middle of a given "level" if you see what I mean.
17:06:16 <Sgeo> http://youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8
17:06:28 <AnMaster> alise, if you look at it when it went stable (initial length of line is now 3035) you can see the middle looks like a extremely wide and squashed hour glass, right?
17:06:51 <alise> "Random fill percentage: 50"
17:06:53 <alise> How can I do a random fill?
17:07:03 <alise> AnMaster: I didn't look at it for too long
17:07:17 <AnMaster> alise, like the two triangles meet in the middle of a "level" of the outermost triangles
17:12:05 <alise> How fast can a spacefiller fill a patterned background, I wonder?
17:12:09 <alise> As in, not already filled.
17:15:48 * alise attempts to make a B/S rule based on silly idioms and truisms.
17:15:56 <alise> Well, two's company and three's a crowd; so obviously S2 and not S3.
17:16:14 <alise> You need a loving, stable family with a mother and father to survive, obviously, so you can't be born with 0 or 1, has to be 2.
17:16:29 <alise> Umm, you need a nice community around you, which can be of size seven or eight, so S78.
17:16:39 <alise> And you can also be born by massive orgies between the community, so B78.
17:16:48 <alise> Funny. It's chaotic.
17:16:50 <AnMaster> alise, wrt spacefiller: golly contains some example
17:17:03 <alise> Yes, but not with a pattern.
17:17:06 <AnMaster> notes mention theoretical upper bound
17:17:19 <Sgeo> half of space?
17:17:19 <AnMaster> (for the all-cardinal-directions one at least)
17:17:39 <Sgeo> Or was it a speed bound? I think I remember seeing half of space as a bound
17:17:44 <AnMaster> (iirc it can be faster if only growing in left/right _or_ up/down but not both
17:18:03 <alise> AnMaster: c/4 all directions, c/2 half
17:18:06 <alise> but that doesn't answer my question
17:18:09 <alise> I asked about patterned backgrounds
17:18:27 <Sgeo> What if it grows diagonally?
17:19:05 <AnMaster> alise, what do you mean c/4 all c/2 half?
17:19:13 <AnMaster> #C Spacefillers are the fastest-growing known pattern in Conway's
17:19:13 <AnMaster> #C Game of Life (probably the fastest possible). They fill space
17:19:13 <AnMaster> #C to a density of 1/2, conjectured to be the maximum density,
17:19:13 <AnMaster> #C and they do it at a speed of c/2 in each of the 4 directions,
17:19:13 <AnMaster> #C which has been proven to be the maximum possible speed.
17:19:20 <AnMaster> is what the info says for that
17:19:22 <alise> Hmm, I thought it was c/4.
17:19:29 <AnMaster> alise, and what do you mean patterned bg exactly?
17:19:37 <alise> Normally, the background is a pattern of all dead cells.
17:19:41 <Sgeo> Oh, "conjectured"
17:19:43 <alise> I'm sure you can figure out what I mean.
17:20:07 <AnMaster> alise, err? no it isn't. That space filler draws dead/alive/dead 1-width strips
17:20:07 <alise> Sgeo: It's very likely to be true, I think.
17:20:11 <Sgeo> If you play Night and Day, I think it is, you can say that they're all live
17:20:15 <alise> Trust it as you trust the Riemann hypothesis or the Collatz conjecture.
17:20:21 <alise> Yeah, Day and Night.
17:20:29 <alise> AnMaster: Stop talking until you understand the very plain meaning of what I said.
17:20:31 <AnMaster> alise, it is however a still life it draws. All dead cells doesn't really fill space, it is empty
17:20:42 <AnMaster> alise, oh you mean prior existing bg?
17:20:54 <Sgeo> What program are you using?
17:21:18 * Sgeo had Mirek's Celebration once
17:21:30 <AnMaster> alise, I suspect it depends on the pattern. Plus you would have to fit the filler to the specific pattern probably so they didn't destroy each other
17:21:56 <Sgeo> *Mirek's Cellebration
17:22:20 <alise> AnMaster: Of course.
17:22:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You are back?
17:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: Cellebration is good, particularly w/r/t Margolus rules
17:22:45 <alise> Control-5 doesn't work here
17:23:12 * Sgeo doesn't even know what a Margolus rule is
17:23:21 <Sgeo> Also, was surprised to see Golly has this: http://golly.sourceforge.net/win-loops.png
17:23:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah, no
17:23:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: can't I fill infinite space???
17:23:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It only added multi-state CAs a couple of versions ago
17:23:54 <Sgeo> It's something I saw in Cellebration, and for some reason, thought it unique to Cellebration
17:24:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why not?
17:24:04 <alise> It's perfectly mathematically consistent!
17:24:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:24:39 * Sgeo plops Phantom_Hoover and alise on a torus
17:24:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No!
17:24:58 <alise> Just compute the random numbers on the fly!
17:25:31 <alise> And, where is ctrl-5 documented?
17:26:19 <alise> Why are so many B/S rules similar to Life?
17:26:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I didn't even notice that
17:27:07 * Sgeo tries in vain to find out what CyTime it is
17:27:24 <alise> Quadrescence: I don't know that we have any Germans or German speakers.
17:27:35 <Sgeo> Look, alise! A shitty ancient 3d thing that I'm not paying money for because I'm not THAT nostalgic.. ok, so I am nostalgic
17:27:50 <Quadrescence> alise: I need a book translated and I'm trying to get as many people to help out as possible
17:28:15 <alise> Quadrescence: "Too many cooks" instantly appeared in my head.
17:28:21 <alise> Having many, many people translate one book?
17:28:41 <Quadrescence> alise: Yes, one person on the internet won't translate 500 pages for me
17:28:55 <Quadrescence> Well maybe there is one who would, but for the most part, they won't
17:29:14 <alise> Quadrescence: But the result will probably not be such good quality; mixed styles and such.
17:29:24 <alise> It's like getting many people to typeset one book.
17:30:02 <Quadrescence> I just can't afford to hire a single translator to do all of the work unfortunately.
17:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://wiki-translation.com/tiki-index.php might be of help.
17:30:21 <Quadrescence> I am not doing this solely for myself; in fact, someone else brought it up
17:30:54 <Sgeo> "Abuse of this function will get you reported to Security"
17:31:01 <Sgeo> Hopefully asking what time it is isn't "abuse"
17:32:21 <alise> Quadrescence: What book?
17:32:45 <Quadrescence> A book on continued fractions: die lehre von den kettenbrüchen von dr. oskar perron
17:33:37 <alise> I like continued fractions. A whole book on them seems excessive though :)
17:34:28 <alise> You're pretty deep and mysterious. Or something
17:35:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I take it it's an open problem as to what pattern is the most "useful" for things like lightspeed travel?
17:35:28 <alise> Like, the easiest for things to survive in and what not.
17:35:35 <alise> The most lubricant fabric of space.
17:35:59 <AnMaster> <alise> Just compute the random numbers on the fly! <-- that works for 1 generation
17:36:12 <alise> AnMaster: you store them after computing
17:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> For lightspeed travel, the stripy agar is probably best.
17:36:25 <alise> Any page about the stripy agar?
17:36:32 <AnMaster> alise, yeah but you need to consider all of space for each generation
17:36:44 <AnMaster> meaning you need infinite space after 1 generation already
17:36:58 <alise> AnMaster: hmm... but truly random cells in life will produce truly random results, right?
17:37:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I did that, but it exploded.
17:37:14 <Sgeo> Ooh, lightspeed travel?
17:37:24 <alise> Sgeo: Only across a pre-prepared space.
17:38:02 <alise> Sgeo: There's also the lightspeed telegraph, which is a machine with two very slow and inefficient machines at each end, and a very long strip of simple wire connecting them; one machine sends blips along this wire; they then travel at lightspeed, and the other machine absorbs them.
17:38:20 <alise> The receiving endpoint is very inefficient, though, and the blips carried are very chaotic; so it's not practical in its current form.
17:38:36 <Sgeo> Chaotic howso?
17:38:42 <alise> Not easily detected.
17:38:51 <alise> But if you need some particles to travel across a very, very long distance, then the lightspeed telegraph will be helpful.
17:38:57 <Sgeo> And surely, no matter the inefficiency, it's practical given a long enough space...
17:38:58 <alise> We're talking LONG here.
17:39:46 <Phantom_Hoover> On the scale of the example that comes with Golly, sending c/2 spaceships would be hugely faster.
17:40:09 <alise> You'd need a cord of several million beehives long for it to be faster than c/2 spaceships, wouldn't you?
17:40:17 <alise> Since the spaceship-emitter at the receiving end is just so slow.
17:40:22 <alise> Maybe thousands rather than millions.
17:40:34 <Sgeo> Since when is a beehive a unit of length?
17:40:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:40:51 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Beehive
17:40:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Say, why aren't blocks useful for the wire?
17:41:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> You need a reaction that burns along a track and leaves a copy of the track behind.
17:41:24 <oerjan> alise: iiuc basically lightspeed communication isn't really giving you anything if the machinery is so complicated you have to expand the machine by a factor >= 2 to compensate
17:41:47 <oerjan> because then why not use the smaller machine with c/2 stuff
17:41:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw that "FTL tunnel" illusion based on building the back of an already constructed front... couldn't it still be used for communication?
17:41:57 <alise> oerjan: well actually the two ends are constant-size in the lightspeed telegraph
17:42:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if all you want is a one-shot signal or such
17:42:08 <alise> and no matter what length the wire they emit the received stuff at the same (slow, slow) pace
17:42:14 <alise> so if you have a really, really long wire, it'd be faster
17:42:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is there not a spaceship that survives blocks and poops one out?
17:42:34 <oerjan> alise: yes but if you used it for memory, you'd have to have many receivers wouldn't you
17:42:38 <Sgeo> I guess it would be impossible to have the complexity of the machinery depend on the length of the wire
17:42:40 <alise> AnMaster: The lightspeed telegraph is usable for communication.
17:42:43 <alise> Given a sufficiently long wire.
17:42:56 <alise> oerjan: hmm... not neccessarily, it'd just be slower
17:43:08 <alise> but if you had a, say, several million beehives long one...
17:43:13 <alise> oerjan: then it'd be faster
17:43:53 <Phantom_Hoover> If you had lots of LSTs next to each other you might be able to squeeze a decent bitrate.
17:43:56 <Sgeo> AnMaster, presumably, by the time you could correctly detect whether or not a signal was sent through, the average speed dropped to c or lower
17:44:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, didn't it detect just the front iirc?
17:44:17 <AnMaster> and assembled the back of a pre-assembled front?
17:44:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think, in your expert (:P) opinion, that practical lightspeed communication will ever be feasible in GOL?
17:44:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and it ends up moving the head somewhat ahead of c?
17:45:00 <alise> AnMaster: No; it's an illusion.
17:45:06 <Sgeo> AnMaster, and it ends up destroying the pre-assembled head if there is no ship
17:45:18 <alise> An example is the "Star Gate", an arrangement of three converging gliders that will mutually annihilate on collision. If a lightweight spaceship (LWSS) hits the colliding gliders, it will appear to move forwards by 11 cells in only 6 generations, and thus travel faster than light.[3] This illusion happens due to the fact that the glider annihilation reaction proceeds by the creation and soon-after destruction of another LWSS. When the incoming LWSS hits th
17:45:19 <alise> e colliding gliders, it isn't transported, but instead modifies the reaction so that the newly created LWSS can survive. The only signal being transmitted is that determining whether the outgoing LWSS should survive or not. This does not need to reach its destination until after the LWSS has been "transported", and so no information needs to travel faster than light.
17:45:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm i guess for a RAM the actual bit rate needed is just logarithmic in the size...
17:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The LST couldn't be used for memory storage; you'd use it for long-distance communication.
17:46:13 <AnMaster> alise, so that hit must be timed?
17:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> All of the known signal circuitry uses spaceships and gliders.
17:46:31 <alise> In my opinion, the most awesomest thing would be a Turing machine tape where the head is mounted on a surface that allows it to move at light-speed, and that also has a lightspeed communication line to the CPU; then, it could receive instructions from the CPU at lightspeed, modify the memory, read it, then send the read value back at lightspeed.
17:46:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i'm thinking of when the memory is so huge you need long-distance communication to interact with it
17:46:40 <alise> It would be the ultimate Turing machine tape in Life.
17:46:54 <AnMaster> alise, couldn't you have a clocked signal then? with some guns or whatever they are called
17:46:58 <alise> Except for that the ULTIMATE ultimate one would be where the whole tape moves so that reading and modifying the current cell is always near-instant.
17:47:09 <AnMaster> alise, and make sure to send the signal synced
17:47:13 <Sgeo> "spaceships and gliders" sounds redundant
17:47:27 <AnMaster> alise, what happens if the LWSS is not there?
17:47:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: You'd need a receiver that could be destroyed and reconstructed at c.
17:47:45 <Sgeo> AnMaster, then a partial LWSS is made, but then dies
17:48:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Or you could embed the memory-instruction-processor into every cell of the tape.
17:48:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So that when you extend the tape it copies itself slowly.
17:48:20 <AnMaster> alise, it can be used to forward with a clocked signal
17:48:31 <AnMaster> since the partial LWSS will go away
17:48:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Then all the communication line needs to do is, when it gets a lightspeed communication to the tape, move it into the processor; when it receives one from the tape, send it on to the CPU.
17:48:42 <AnMaster> just tested that by not sending a LWSS there
17:48:47 <alise> AnMaster: you can't do FTL communication
17:48:50 <alise> theoretical impossibility
17:49:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Making a c signal stop at a set distance might be impossible.
17:49:08 <alise> Please don't say "quantum entanglement".
17:49:10 <alise> I will have to kill you.
17:49:14 <AnMaster> alise, but in GOL you can if you can have a clocked signal
17:49:14 <Sgeo> AnMaster, try reviewing the rules of GoL
17:49:21 <alise> Oh, impossible in reality
17:49:29 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I do see the issue but... hm
17:49:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: AnMaster believes he has come up with a way to do FTL communication in GOL; laugh at him to make him shut up or something
17:50:25 <Sgeo> AnMaster, by the time you can actually use something to detect whether the LWSS is there or not, the signal has no longer seemed to have taken lightspeed, I think
17:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: It's patently impossible. The axioms only allow propagation of information at 1 cell/generation. END OF.
17:50:31 <Sgeo> *faster than lightspeed
17:50:33 <alise> Sgeo is pretty much correct
17:50:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, open Sginal-Circuitry/stargate.rle in golly examples. Then remove the middle LWSS in the upper line. Check the results after running it a few generations
17:50:49 <AnMaster> (enough to let all go to the other side)
17:51:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, now, tell me how that does not seem to be FTL
17:51:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, seem to be is the operative phrase
17:51:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yes but in which was is it not then
17:51:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? what do you mean by that
17:52:17 <Sgeo> AnMaster, Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
17:52:22 <alise> But anything in THE UNIVERSE
17:52:24 <alise> Trying to PROCESS THIS OUTPUT
17:52:28 <alise> Could NOT see it all as FTL
17:52:34 <alise> We are God, we are omnipotent, we can observe everything at once
17:52:36 <alise> Cells in the universe can not
17:53:04 <AnMaster> Sgeo, eh? I can't parse that grammar
17:53:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, neither could I process yours
17:53:29 <Sgeo> <AnMaster> Sgeo, yes but in which was is it not then
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17:54:14 <Sgeo> It's not, because the signal to kill the new LWSS or not propagates at c or less
17:54:31 <Sgeo> If you try to detect the ship before that signal propagates, it will always be there
17:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Did you get the thing about it being impossible for something at C to stop?
17:54:37 <alise> We're GOL hobby physicists making a cruel mockery out of this crackpot's ideas! Mwahahaha!
17:54:47 <alise> THIS MUST BE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO FEEL TRULY INTELLIGENT
17:54:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, no.
17:54:54 <Sgeo> If you wait until the ship is either destroyed or not destroyed, then the signal travelled at c or less
17:54:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That is cool. Is it true?
17:55:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What if you put an amazing wall of blockingness in its path? I guess that doesn't count.
17:55:10 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not saying I am right. I just want a good explanation of why I'm not
17:55:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I guess the tick where it decided whether to destroy itself would make it c/2.
17:55:19 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
17:55:31 <jix> Quadrescence: yes
17:55:33 <Sgeo> AnMaster, there's a pre-made ship front. Trying to detect it to get a signal faster than light will always result in a detection, whether or not there was a signal
17:56:07 <Sgeo> Wait, things at c can't stop without a wall?
17:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The front of the signal can't be accessed by things behind it
17:57:38 <Sgeo> How to propagate a signal in Life faster than c:
17:57:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But can you have "stargates" at various points, which absorb the c-ship, then decide whether to fire another one on or not?
17:57:46 <Sgeo> Make a GoL simulation in GoL
17:57:52 <alise> Sure, it slows it down from c for a bit, but it'd allow conditional destruction every now and then.
17:58:02 <alise> Wow, this is exactly like science-fiction space engineering.
17:58:09 <Sgeo> Corrupt one of the cells, so it sends a signal to a cell that's not a neighbor
17:58:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But still a lot better than c/2, assuming your travel distance is long enough.
17:58:43 <alise> No, not each cell.
17:58:59 <alise> For the Turing machine.
17:59:10 <alise> Hmm... and each cell would be right next to each other, almost.
17:59:15 <alise> So the c wire wouldn't get you much there, would it?
17:59:23 <alise> Or, well, you do need a c wire, but only for the return trip.
17:59:26 <alise> When accessing memory.
17:59:32 <alise> So accessing memory would be a lot faster than writing it.
18:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So now we need to work out how to create a c wire which can have signals injected at regular intervals.
18:00:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If mounted on an appropriate surface, how fast could a whole tape move itself so that one tape-cell is at the (non-moving) head?
18:00:05 <alise> Presumably not at lightspeed.
18:01:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How could reading/writing be at lightspeed, if it has to stop at every cell?
18:01:09 <alise> The read response can go at lightspeed, but the read request can't.
18:01:21 <alise> And the write has no return journey.
18:03:15 <alise> How would it know when to intercept?
18:03:19 <alise> It doesn't know if it's The One.
18:03:27 <alise> And if it collided and then decided, it'd be significantly sub-c.
18:03:42 <alise> But that's the whole problem; telling things to the cell!
18:03:47 <alise> That requires communication that stops!
18:03:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh right that is the issue. That LWSS travels at c/2... Why didn't you just say that
18:03:52 <alise> That's what we're trying to achieve :P
18:03:54 <AnMaster> THAT would have been the clear answer
18:03:58 <alise> AnMaster: Because that's fucking obvious???
18:04:17 <AnMaster> alise, depends on how well you know life.
18:04:39 <alise> If it travelled at c do you think we'd be saying all this stuff about complicated light-speed telegraphs?
18:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Well, telling the cell it's The One will be much less data than read/writes.
18:05:11 <AnMaster> alise, it could have been c/2 < speed < c for all I knew
18:05:31 <AnMaster> in theory for all I knew enough to make the increase worth it..
18:05:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Reading: "Cell, you are the one." Cell then poops off the data at lightspeed to the CPU.
18:06:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Writing: "Cell, you are the one. (1 bit that only the one will examine)" Cell then poops the data onto the tape.
18:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Writing: "Cell, you are the Write One", cell taps into lightwire and reads any signal on it.
18:06:38 <alise> You can't tell the cell it's the one any faster than that, and certainly not at lightspeed because it can't stop, and if you stopped it it's <c.
18:06:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what are those light speed bubbles? It doesn't seem mentioned on the life wiki. saw it at some other link posted here before
18:06:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Err, why?
18:06:58 <alise> That wouldn't be significantly faster.
18:07:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Tape cells only store 1 bit of information.
18:07:10 <alise> AnMaster: Bubbles?
18:07:29 <AnMaster> some page about light speed stuff
18:08:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, sure, it'd be /one/ less thing for the cell's intercept-and-interrogate handlers to copy out.
18:08:17 <alise> But that's, like, a few cells.
18:08:17 * Sgeo loves pathological edge effects
18:08:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Reading isn't quite at c, since you still need interception. It's <c for the part where the "You, gimme your value" signal travels down the wire; then =c when the read signal travels back.
18:09:15 <alise> Probably the "oi, it's you; (and if this is a write here is a bit)" should be done with c/2 spaceships, because intercepting and re-pooping (technical term) a c blip every single cell would end up really slow.
18:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Although tapping into the lightwire to the CPU would likely have a significant overhead.
18:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Since lightwires are by their nature very easy to burn.
18:11:05 <AnMaster> alise, oh not GOL cell but memory cell (made up of several GOL cells)?
18:11:40 <AnMaster> alise, why not call it memory block such
18:12:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, we're assuming that we've come up with a relatively efficient lightspeed receiver.
18:12:16 <Sgeo> Why is the Java thing on the Wiki not working?
18:12:22 <AnMaster> anyway. why not put it into several banks. Sure it wouldn't be exactly a Turing machine. But it might be more practical
18:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The sender needs to be able to send to a lightwire at any point on its length.
18:13:04 <AnMaster> plus if you could branch the signal you could have it check several banks in parallel
18:13:35 <alise> Sgeo: Works for me
18:13:43 <alise> AnMaster: No faster
18:13:44 <AnMaster> and sure, if one of them didn't return, wouldn't matter would it? The signal would die when it hit the (current) end of the tape
18:13:50 <Sgeo> Hm, I think it's because I clicked Next
18:13:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah, i see
18:13:55 <Sgeo> That broke something somehow
18:13:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, okay do it before it transmits? thus the multiple banks
18:14:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so we need a lightwire that can accept communications at any part
18:14:04 <alise> doesn't the telegraph have one of them?
18:14:07 <alise> it's uniform all the way along
18:14:10 <alise> so given enough space...
18:14:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if you have 1024 places to check you might now have 2 parallel checks of 512 places instead
18:14:47 <AnMaster> seems like a probable win to me even if branching has a certain overhead
18:15:01 <AnMaster> as long as the overhead is smaller than what you gain
18:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need a way to break the wire without burning it, then transmitting a signal, then fixing the wire perfectly.
18:15:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I suggested branching *before* the transmitter at the CPU
18:15:32 <AnMaster> as in, using multiple transmitters
18:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It'll need to be synchronised, which is another issue with this design.
18:16:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, local clocks synced at the start? It isn't as if life has any issues with clock drift :P
18:16:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It'd be nice if there was an agar that allowed something to pass through such that the bit around the agar's edge would easily transform it into a spaceship of some sort
18:16:50 <alise> It's nice that Life has no clock drift or anything :P
18:17:02 <alise> And no nondeterminism
18:17:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm, make a pentium4 style pipeline? ;P
18:17:15 <alise> I wonder what would happen if I wrote a Life simulator with entanglement.
18:17:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, nah, depends on what you mean. Sure some latency will happen but in which part did you mean here
18:17:31 <alise> That is, you can mark certain regions of space as entangled and pair them with another region.
18:17:32 <Sgeo> How does Maze work?
18:17:36 <alise> Then any change on one side happens to the other.
18:17:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well it was a bad joke
18:17:48 <alise> This also means that a glider could innocently walk into the entangled region, then when it walks out it'll be TWO
18:17:55 <alise> one in the original location, one in the other entangled region
18:17:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: COOL OR WAT.
18:18:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, where is the latency in this case. In the sender?
18:18:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: COOL OR WAT.
18:18:43 <alise> Of course you would
18:18:43 <Sgeo> Can patterns cause arbitrary regions to be entangled?
18:18:50 <alise> It wouldn't just be entanglement, it would be AWESOME entanglement.
18:18:50 <Sgeo> That would be cooler
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18:19:01 <alise> Basically, a fixed region of space is entangled (by act of God).
18:19:15 <alise> Then if a glider moved in, it would cause cells in the entangled region to change, and thus the glider would appear weirdly in the other one.
18:19:23 <alise> first only the first part of the glider that hits the entangled region would appear
18:19:29 <alise> and then quickly die out because it wouldn't have enough substance
18:19:31 <alise> which would mangle the glider
18:19:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ^^ see that
18:19:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well sure, "lower" addresses would be faster
18:19:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: can you think of any way to make something go through the entangled region and not be obliterated?
18:20:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: maybe have some sort of spaceship such that part of it is still life, such that when it enters, only the bottom row is there, but it connects with the previously-still top of it
18:20:13 <alise> and starts being a spaceship?
18:20:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but that is where the banks come into it. Basically you check multiple cells at the same time that way
18:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Change the transition rules, as cells in the entangled area effectively have 16 neighbours?
18:20:24 <alise> that would then obliterate the one that entered, but the one that comes out would work
18:20:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nope, keep them the same
18:20:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they're treated as different cells
18:20:39 <alise> it's just that you add one more rule
18:20:49 <alise> "whenever a cell in an entangled region changes, both entangled regions change accordingly"
18:20:58 <alise> only when it changes
18:21:01 <alise> "stay the same" would not conflict
18:21:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if you are doing <c addressing and that allows branching a signal easily then you should do it like a tree or such to have just a few levels and be able to check a lot of memory cells at once
18:21:06 <alise> and also, life takes precedence over death i think
18:21:22 <AnMaster> balanced binary tree sounds terribly complicated in life
18:21:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You know that dot matrix printer?
18:21:59 <alise> http://tlrobinson.net/blog/2009/02/07/game-of-life-generator/
18:22:05 <alise> Using the same thing as the golly generator
18:22:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I bet you could make one of them that takes dynamic input at simulation-time.
18:22:17 <alise> Then it'd be a generic output device.
18:23:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Although...
18:23:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: With a universal constructor, you could just construct still lifes to do the same thing.
18:23:23 <alise> But a UC would be a lot slower, right?
18:23:38 -!- capitancar has joined.
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18:23:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ooh, what about a Life unit cell with a UC? The life can hit a special region to control the UC >:)
18:24:43 <alise> universal constructor
18:24:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, you just need to emulate the stored instructions.
18:25:08 <alise> <capitancar> que mas
18:25:16 <alise> <capitancar> comentame
18:25:19 <alise> capitancar: english please
18:25:28 <Sgeo> "It is probably the most well-known one cell thick pattern"
18:25:47 <Sgeo> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=One_cell_thick_pattern
18:25:55 <Sgeo> I think blinkers might be a bit more well known
18:26:33 <pikhq> Well, for once my Internet makes sense.
18:26:44 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I didn't know of that pattern. I knew of blinkers though
18:26:56 <pikhq> It drops out because of heavy rain.
18:26:57 <AnMaster> )(of course that is just one data point)
18:27:04 <pikhq> Y'know, what you'd *expect*.
18:27:47 <alise> pikhq: your packets go into space man
18:27:51 <alise> space is one cold motherfucker.
18:27:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, well for any sort of wireless communications it makes sense that weather have an effect
18:28:14 <AnMaster> alise, that is what it's mum said!
18:28:24 <alise> AnMaster: I see :P
18:29:21 <alise> *its, also, *mom or mother for the joke
18:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "That's the end of that one. Atmospheric conditions in outer space often interfere with transmitting. "
18:30:09 <alise> All that solar wind has an affect.
18:30:33 <Sgeo> Hm, trying to remember how I found out about GoL
18:30:44 <Sgeo> I remember some program, that had a file 1103
18:30:54 <Sgeo> Didn't give it a name or anything, so I called it 1103
18:31:04 <Sgeo> (the R-pentomino)
18:31:09 <alise> Sgeo: Do you really think you need /more/ nostalgia?
18:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I found out about it when I found a rather crappy GoL simulator for the Mac Dashboard.
18:31:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Like I said, *it makes sense* for once.
18:31:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: KIDDO
18:31:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, how often does it rain there?
18:31:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Too often.
18:31:47 <Sgeo> I think space was green
18:31:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I then forgot about it until I read about it again in one of Ian Stewart's books.
18:31:53 <alise> AnMaster: every time Obama cries
18:31:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah then it is scared of the rare clear weather
18:31:56 <pikhq> It's been raining for the past week.
18:31:58 <alise> cries. for freedom.
18:32:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't know how to handle it
18:32:28 <pikhq> I feel like I'm British or something.
18:35:29 <alise> pikhq: Tell me! Have you ever experienced DRIZZLE?
18:35:50 -!- FredrIQ has joined.
18:36:04 <alise> Answer, pikhq! Answer, you foul-mouthed cretin!
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18:36:59 <alise> pikhq: HAVE. YOU. EVER. EXPE-- oh, hello FredrIQ, sorry for your (first?) impressions of this channel, I'm just chastising silly pikhq here-- RIENCED. DRIZZLE?!
18:37:40 <alise> Oh my god, qotile!
18:37:43 <Sgeo> "Drizzle" reminds me of CT
18:37:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Time is equated to the Z-axis"
18:37:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:37:59 <AnMaster> alise, you know what, you should be able to do?
18:38:16 <AnMaster> alise, copy a pattern from golly then paste it into the search box on lifewiki
18:38:21 <alise> pikhq: Are you SURE? Drizzle is not something you know to be drizzle, because its very virtue is its uncanny ability to make you feel rotten and get things wet without making an impression on anything.
18:38:23 <AnMaster> to search for the name of some specific pattern
18:38:28 <alise> It is not rain, it is worse than rain! It is of the devil and you never notice it!
18:38:40 <alise> It is not malicious, it is merely so passively, mediocrely HORRIBLE that it destroys your soul!
18:38:46 <alise> HAVE YOU _EVER_ EXPERIENCED DRIZZLE?
18:39:09 <Sgeo> http://www.qotile.net/blog/images/image5.jpg that looked physically real at first
18:39:09 <pikhq> alise: All I know is, I have certainly gone out and came back in and noticed that I was both wet and feeling awful.
18:39:16 <pikhq> Without noticing the wettening itself.
18:39:23 <alise> Wet, you see, wet, drizzle doesn't make you wet, it makes you drizzledupon.
18:39:47 <Sgeo> I thought that maybe it was 3d printed\
18:39:56 <alise> You have not experienced drizzle. You are scum to call yourself British! Never be ungrateful for your weather, for we have the powers contained within our atmosphere to crush your soul should one ever decide to introduce you to the real British climate!
18:39:58 <pikhq> I also like-a the tea.
18:40:05 <alise> REMEMBER THIS, HEATHEN!
18:40:53 <pikhq> alise: Is YOUR last name the name of a shire?
18:41:14 <alise> Elliott "Hird" Oxfordshire
18:41:39 <pikhq> Dammit, you got the good shire.
18:41:55 <alise> I don't actually live in Oxfordshire but it would be cool if I did
18:42:15 * pikhq is inexplicably named "Worcester".
18:42:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what do you call a thing that looks like a LWSS but is one longer in the "longer" side? Thus making the gap in the opposite side 3 cells instead of 2. In the middle, and one up, in that gap there is an extra cell
18:42:29 <AnMaster> can't think of a better way to describe it
18:42:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yep looks like it
18:42:50 <alise> pikhq: Worcester, pah. It's Worcestershire.
18:42:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there should be some pattern→name lookup/search
18:42:59 * Sgeo his AnMaster with an OWSS
18:43:03 <alise> Also, anyone who calls Worcestershire Sauce "Worcester sauce" is living in a state of Sin.
18:43:21 -!- capitancar has left (?).
18:43:32 <pikhq> alise: True, true.
18:43:33 <Sgeo> OverWeight Space Ship
18:43:37 <alise> pikhq: Also note, I'm not actually called Oxfordshire
18:43:37 <pikhq> There's more to the shire than Worcester.
18:44:16 -!- marchdown has joined.
18:44:32 <alise> Totally a real shire
18:44:33 <Sgeo> alise, are you a HURD of HIRDS?
18:44:45 <alise> Sgeo: Go away, Stallmanshire.
18:45:01 <alise> I hereby decree that all surnames henceforth spoken in this channel must be suffixed, if they are not already, with "-shire".
18:45:03 <pikhq> alise: Go away, Shireshire.
18:45:06 <Sgeo> erm,yeah, hird not herd
18:45:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hooversh.
18:45:25 <alise> This is an ex cathedra declaration that calls under Papal infallability.
18:45:32 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeoshire.
18:45:33 -!- Phantom_Hooversh has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
18:45:37 <alise> In fact, infallability is now the official spelling.
18:45:44 <alise> Did I ever tell you guys I'm the Pope btw?
18:45:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Hoovershire.
18:45:48 -!- alise has changed nick to aliseshire.
18:46:35 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no drizzle
18:46:50 <aliseshire> oerjan: you don't have it, you can't possibly have a name for it
18:46:57 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en yr
18:47:14 <oerjan> in fact we have two names for it
18:47:28 <oerjan> but google only knows one of them
18:47:59 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, but we're English-speakers.
18:48:05 <pikhq> WE TAKE YOUR WORDS
18:48:17 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, how do I fill random to some other density than 50% in golly?
18:48:40 <pikhq> "Duskregn" and "yr" are now English words!
18:48:45 <pikhq> Ain't it awesome speaking English?
18:48:50 <AnMaster> aliseshire, eh? seems weird to make it a preference like that
18:50:05 -!- aliseshire has changed nick to kreivikunta.
18:50:11 <kreivikunta> I'd use this name, except it has "kunt" in it
18:50:58 <Deewiant> That Japanese just says "shaia" (I think) i.e. it only transliterated
18:51:12 <kreivikunta> I did notice it had a striking lack of kanji
18:52:07 <Sgeoshire> AnMaster, http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Teleportation
18:52:10 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no shire
18:52:32 <oerjan> ok we have drizzle but apparently we don't have shires
18:54:01 <AnMaster> strange, golly must be leaking memory, swap trashing. Restarting it and it goes away
18:54:02 <oerjan> ah if i believe the german, shire would be "grevskap" in norwegian. and our constitution prohibits nobility, so...
18:54:23 <oerjan> so in fact shires are illegal here :)
18:55:00 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, I did set a memory limit in preferences
18:55:09 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, for both hashlife and quicklife
18:55:13 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, and I was using quicklife
18:55:30 <Hoovershire> You should probably notify the devs, then.
18:55:41 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, yeah mem limit was set to 500 MB for each. System has 4 GB RAM. Golly was according to htop using 80% of total memory
18:56:17 <oerjan> kreivikunta: certainly
18:56:18 <Hoovershire> The access times make it too slow, apparently.
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18:56:19 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, well 500 MB should be much less that the limit for swap
18:57:46 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, sure there is some overhead. And then there is X and Gnome. But without golly running it is like 200 MB RAM used (including disk cache, which was almost completely eaten due to the swap trashing, kernel prefers to throw away disk cache iirc
18:57:47 <oerjan> kreivikunta: i think that may have been one of the original provisions from 1814, even
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18:58:03 <Sgeoshire> How would a spherical playing field for GoL work?
18:58:23 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, I was studying random fill. I believe it might have happened when switching between hash algorithms
18:58:26 <kreivikunta> oerjan: what, forbidding shires?; or allowing amendment?
18:58:32 <kreivikunta> if allowing amendment, by definition it must have been one of the first
18:58:42 <oerjan> kreivikunta: well both presumably
18:58:46 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, I found hashlife was too slow until it has become mostly stable. But then hashlife works fine
18:58:48 <kreivikunta> If spherical, it's just a regular wrapping.
18:59:08 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, so I used quicklife for some 2000-3000 generations then switched to hashlife. I believe the mem leak is related to that
18:59:21 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, also I got a nice pattern that looks kind of like a face here
18:59:31 <pikhq> kreivikuntashire should be a shire.
18:59:37 <oerjan> kreivikunta: iirc as far as land is concerned what the constitution prohibits is any form of inheritance which requires the heir not to sell the property
18:59:42 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, a collision of gliders leaving the random region produced it
19:00:09 * Hoovershire checks whether gliders can produce Pi-heptominoes
19:00:22 <oerjan> this has the effect of preventing land-based nobility families
19:00:36 <kreivikunta> pikhq: Kreivikuntashire is just shireshire :P
19:00:49 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, well I think it was gliders. A bit hard to tell: initial population was >500,000
19:00:49 <oerjan> but it also forbids inherited noble titles separately, i think
19:01:35 <Sgeoshire> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Aircraft_carrier those islands look further away then they are
19:01:40 <oerjan> (those who were nobility at the time the constitution went into effect stayed so, but it didn't pass to their children. iiuc.)
19:02:23 <oerjan> if i understand correctly
19:03:01 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, it was a 2-glider collision
19:03:32 <Hoovershire> Yeah, pi-heptominoes create a debris cloud that looks like a face and are 2-glider synthesisable
19:03:33 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, two ponds, 6 blocks, 5 blinkers. Arranged kind of like a face
19:04:06 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, probably you know the collision already. Saw some list of possible 2-glider-collisions on the wiki
19:04:21 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, how rare is that in random 25% fill I wonder
19:04:27 <pikhq> kreivikunta: NEED MOAR SHIRE
19:04:29 <AnMaster> Sgeoshire, too busy watching pretty patterns ;P
19:04:55 <pikhq> Deewiant: Also. Yes, of course it only transliterated. "Shire" is a loanword in Japanese. :)
19:05:06 <pikhq> 13:04 [freenode] -!- シャイアshir Erroneous Nickname
19:05:17 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, sure but not quite as common outside the random block from my tries so far
19:06:01 <Deewiant> pikhq: It's not "of course", there could be an equivalent concept it translates to. Although I guess that since it originates in European nobility it should be obvious that there isn't.
19:06:22 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, hm zooming a lot causes swap trash too. But yes memory limit is set and population is "only" 487141 now
19:06:36 <oerjan> kreivikunta: hm it looks like the constitution only prohibited establishing _new_ titles, while a later law of 1821 abolished the old ones (except for people keeping titles until they died)
19:06:41 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, initial population was 4090522
19:07:12 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, hm? why are you repeating what I said?
19:07:56 <oerjan> kreivikunta: apparently norway only had 3 noble titles previous to this, anyway (which presumably made it easy to abolish)
19:08:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh. And how many had each of those types of title?
19:08:57 <Hoovershire> AnMaster: Again, if you're getting persistent memory leaks, you should tell the devs.
19:09:27 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, it does seem related to switching algorithm on the fly. Not completely sure. It is a bit random...
19:09:45 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, but yes I will. Probably not this evening. Got some other things to do really...
19:10:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: well three Stamhus (shires?), really. actually one of them (Jarlsberg) still exists, the constitution only prohibits making new ones
19:11:06 <pikhq> Deewiant: Even if there *was* an equivalent concept, the Japanese would still probably have this as a loan word. They treat foreign languages a *bit* like English does.
19:11:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: this is mostly from the norwegian wikipedia article on Adel, which is marked as not very good though
19:11:22 <pikhq> It, too, has native words as a *minority* of the words in the language.
19:13:55 <pikhq> Oh, hey, copumpkin.
19:14:01 <pikhq> Didn't realise you were in here.
19:15:30 <kreivikunta> Where the neighbours are are determined how small the cell number is, order of magnitude; so (0,0) would have neighbours (-1,0), (0,-1), (1,0), (0,1), (1,1), (-1,-1), etc.
19:15:45 <kreivikunta> But (0.1,0.1) would have (-0.2,0.1), (0.1,-0.2), etc
19:15:52 <oerjan> copumpkin: are you dual to a pumpkin?
19:15:54 <kreivikunta> Exercise: Proof this actually works out to anything consistent
19:30:46 <Hoovershire> You can send a signal at 2c/3 to anywhere in the universe.
19:30:55 <Hoovershire> http://pentadecathlon.com/lifeNews/2009/03/working_2c3_signal_elbow.html
19:31:58 <kreivikunta> ah, is it because it's 2/3 instead of 1/2 of light?
19:32:12 <Hoovershire> It means that you can have a 2c/3 signal wire going to any point in the universe,
19:33:42 <augur> you can't hide forever, mister peebles!
19:34:27 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, on life wiki (polyomino page): "Charles Corderman discovered the switch engine by running an exhaustive computer search on all decominoes. The machine that discovered the decomino seed was unique, possessing an unusual architecture. "
19:34:43 <AnMaster> there is no citation or any further details
19:34:50 <AnMaster> as to what this special architecture would be
19:35:04 <AnMaster> google didn't turn up anything useful
19:35:11 <Hoovershire> It means that the search program can't be run on your own computer.
19:35:19 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, so in what way was it special
19:35:34 <Hoovershire> It's probably just some custom machine he built for the purpose.
19:35:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: alien technology, duh
19:35:53 <kreivikunta> yeah probably just a custom searching machine
19:35:54 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, FPGAs? Doesn't say anything about when... so no idea if it was FPGAs or something else
19:36:15 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: I think my hunch is that a c turn is impossible
19:36:39 <AnMaster> "A switch engine (or Corder engine[1]) is a methuselah that was found by Charles Corderman in 1971. It is unstable by itself, but it can be used to make c/12 diagonal puffers and spaceships. "
19:36:51 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: because a turn basically has to deconstruct and then reconstruct a vehicle since life has no notion of "turning" as such
19:37:18 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: My conjecture is that the complexity of the operations required to rebuild it rotated are sufficiently complex that they will always take longer than a straight line
19:37:32 <Sgeoshire> Wait, couldn't you terminate the wire and retransmit before a second elbow
19:37:35 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: However, it may be possible to build an elbow that, while running slower than c, can plug directly on to two lightspeed wires.
19:37:39 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: Why can't a signal induce another signal in a wire at 90 degrees?
19:37:48 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: It can, but it'll take more than one generation.
19:38:24 <AnMaster> why is it an issue if there is some delay in that?
19:38:47 <AnMaster> as long as most of the time there is no delay I mean
19:39:12 <AnMaster> build it with mostly straight segments and turning isn't an issue
19:39:18 <kreivikunta> Because without a delay it's as simple as having a receiver and emitter right next to each other.
19:39:25 <kreivikunta> Which, sure, is possible, but the point is something that's practical, unlike that.
19:39:41 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, see ^ "<AnMaster> err, no more than c*"
19:40:40 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, so as long as you have mostly straight lines with just a few corners it will still be roughly the same speed
19:40:53 <kreivikunta> and we can theoretically make corner-turners now
19:41:10 <kreivikunta> AnMaster: as slow as the receiving and sending ends of a telegraph put together
19:41:21 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: Suppose you have a signal with an exposed spark, which can induce a signal cleanly in a wire at 90 degrees.
19:41:30 <kreivikunta> receive it, send it into a receiver that sends out the same signal, but on another wire, that's tilted
19:41:33 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, so how long does the cable need to be for that to be useful?
19:41:52 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, well depends on what you need to do with it
19:41:54 <kreivikunta> the LST is already hopelessly impractical.
19:42:11 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, LST seems mostly useful for high speed, very long, links?
19:42:26 <kreivikunta> AnMaster: yes, which is nothing in practice.
19:42:29 <Hoovershire> Only if you need to get across tens of thousands of cells.
19:42:41 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: Golly/Miscellaneous/lightspeed.rle -- this is just a fuse isn't it??
19:42:42 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, yes and can't that happen?
19:43:00 <AnMaster> fuse would work fine for a one-time signal no?
19:43:04 <Hoovershire> Remember, each pulse is one bit, so the information is dribbling.
19:43:05 * kreivikunta notes something... Most things in Life move not that much slower than lightspeed.
19:43:12 <kreivikunta> Those guys' doppler shift must be fucking insane.
19:43:38 <Hoovershire> AnMaster: A fuse is impractical, because you need to rebuild it at <c.
19:43:55 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, but that only applies if you need to rebuild it
19:44:05 <kreivikunta> one-bit communication at a specified time?
19:44:05 <Sgeoshire> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lightspeed_wire the bit about 2c/3 turns seems.. obsolete?
19:44:22 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, yes why not. A "stop, we found the prime we looked for" signal
19:44:26 <kreivikunta> Come to think of it, I've never built a clock in Life. Or, well, much at all.
19:44:33 <kreivikunta> I think I'll do that. This isn't an unsolved problem is it Hoovershire?
19:44:51 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, well you could want it
19:45:11 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: There has to be some sort of simpler clock.
19:45:14 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, you don't _need_ lightspeed for anything
19:45:26 <Hoovershire> *All* signal circuitry has a clock, in the form of the shuttle type it uses.
19:46:00 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, you seldom build clocks in non-CAs
19:46:18 <AnMaster> because you use an external clock signal probably
19:46:28 <AnMaster> you don't build one in VHDL except for simulation
19:46:41 <Sgeoshire> Oh, multiple elbows are useful for closing loops?
19:46:46 <kreivikunta> [[In the Game of Life, for every p greater than or equal to 14 it is possible to construct a glider gun in which the gliders are emitted with period p.[1]]]
19:46:52 <kreivikunta> Is there a LWSS clock that can emit faster?
19:46:58 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: Gosper makes sense, because the smallest would be easily-discovered.
19:47:02 <kreivikunta> Or even something which can emit some sort of pulse at c?
19:47:10 <kreivikunta> (Just be emitted every c... or multiple of c)
19:48:19 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, can't gun and bullets travel at same speed? If they are traveling in opposite directions at least
19:48:26 <Hoovershire> But anyway, clocks are unnecessary in Life.
19:49:13 <Hoovershire> Because most technology is innately p30 or p46, so it's all synchronised.
19:49:34 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: I'd like a clock that goes faster than p14 though
19:49:48 <kreivikunta> even just something that emits some sort of pulse every 13 generations would be cool
19:51:06 <AnMaster> kreivikunta, define a clock? Oscillator which emit something?
19:51:33 <kreivikunta> It is acceptable if the oscillator needs a nearby wire to emit stuff onto.
19:52:16 <Sgeoshire> http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html
19:52:33 <AnMaster> oh that was the page with the bubbles
19:52:41 <Sgeoshire> Is lightspeed transmission stuff that inefficient, that a p91090 gun is useful?
19:53:10 <Sgeoshire> Oh, that's just transmission stuff
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19:54:34 <Sgeoshire> Wait, the page actually talks about makign stripe agar?
19:54:49 <kreivikunta> http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html
19:54:56 <kreivikunta> All the alive/dead alternating rows -- that's stripe agar.
19:55:19 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: Are you still on the p13 clock?
19:55:59 <kreivikunta> Let's see... at the left and right ends of the white lines, just on the border; on the top and bottom, alive cells with two dead cells in-between, such that there are alive cells on both very edges at both top and bottom... and both the top and bottom non-bordered lines should be alive.
19:56:04 <kreivikunta> Yep, I think I know how to make stripe agar now.
19:56:56 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: You might want to look at Greyships and spacefillers.
19:57:10 <Hoovershire> They work by creating agars, normally striped.
19:57:28 <AnMaster> Sgeoshire, I can't find any page on the lifewiki about p91090
19:57:33 <Hoovershire> AnMaster: A spaceship containing an agar with 1/2 density.
19:57:45 <Sgeoshire> AnMaster, search http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html
19:58:07 <AnMaster> Sgeoshire, "phrase not found", did you typo it?
19:58:45 <AnMaster> I copy-pasted from <Sgeoshire> Is lightspeed transmission stuff that inefficient, that a p91090 gun is useful?
19:59:28 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: I just made some stripe agar, but it isn't stable.
19:59:39 <kreivikunta> Do I have to do something to it after I prepare the base material? Does it have to be a certain size? It looks right...
20:00:01 <Hoovershire> Stripe agar needs regular bookends at the boundaries.
20:00:48 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, got a link to an example grayship? the life wiki basically have a stub
20:01:44 <Hoovershire> AnMaster: Cambrain-Explosion.rle has some greyships at the top.
20:02:11 -!- calamari has joined.
20:02:23 <calamari> Gregor: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4LYV_SFknMc/S9H7jdd_tQI/AAAAAAAAAQk/dKoK6biWn9Y/s1600/KFC-KRISPY-KREME-LUTHER-DOUBLE-DOWN-DOUGHNUT-BUN-D.jpg
20:02:46 -!- augur has joined.
20:02:49 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, which directory is it in?
20:03:13 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: The bookends on the sides need to be on every other line.
20:03:52 <Sgeoshire> What, exactly, makes it so inefficient?
20:04:11 <kreivikunta> Sgeoshire: the only signals that like travelling along wire at light-speed are chaotic and hard to both produce and detect
20:04:19 <kreivikunta> to produce you need to like collide gliders together at precise timings
20:04:21 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, which site is the front?
20:04:30 <kreivikunta> and detecting them at the end requires very complicated, large and controlled machinery
20:04:58 <AnMaster> Hoovershire, are that entire group greyships or?
20:05:11 <kreivikunta> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TO9A8O1Azeg/RnZs8QADCGI/AAAAAAAAAIM/11c9lJax9Z0/s1600-h/Pi-tracks-DRH-17Feb1997.GIF CREEY FACE CIRCUITS
20:07:27 <Hoovershire> AnMaster: There's a pattern that stretches a striped agar horizontally at -123, 22
20:09:12 <kreivikunta> It carries a whole galaxy of life organisms.
20:10:49 <Hoovershire> There were the beginnings of a (13,1) spaceship on the caterpillar page.
20:11:34 <kreivikunta> I still don't understand the (a,b) notation.
20:12:01 <Hoovershire> It moves 13 cells left for every 1 it moves up.
20:12:08 -!- Sgeoshire has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:12:14 -!- Hoovershire has changed nick to alise.
20:12:26 -!- alise has changed nick to Hoovershire.
20:12:35 <AnMaster> does anyone know if fizzie is away for the weekend or something?
20:14:29 <Deewiant> /whois says he's been idle for almost 24 hours, so maybe he's away for today.
20:16:33 <Ilari> Would that be first spaceship tha does not move in one of 8 main directions? Or has some such ship aleady been built?
20:17:12 <Gregor> Jan Vitek: Flash is to computing, what porn is to cinema?
20:17:12 <Gregor> Gregor Richards: ... YES. I agree with that statement 115%.
20:17:33 <pikhq> Why hello, Richardsshire.
20:17:40 <Hoovershire> Also, everything interesting in Life is found with searches these days.
20:17:41 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: So what's wrong with my agar?
20:18:32 <kreivikunta> Gregor: Jan Vitek's Facebook photo: http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?oid=AAAAAwAgACAAAAAJOxKn1xL6DjDHhndQyKszQjZLwByUy-T-E0I5xvwVi4D_tpmGTj9TFtyFVsNHHm5cWyKXCFE9IzkwvJZABz70l0zVm61rAYnYoZxN3j_FXfjxVH0OgTyfYPdvehsrEVuG&size=normal
20:18:39 <kreivikunta> ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO AGREE WITH THIS MAN
20:18:54 <Gregor> kreivikunta: He's my advisor :P
20:18:57 <fizzie> (I'm not away, I'm just busy.)
20:19:09 <calamari> Gregor: I knew you'd like that
20:19:20 <pikhq> kreivikunta: That's Jan Vitekshire, sir.
20:19:29 <calamari> looks like a yummy breakfast sandwich
20:19:38 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: I told you: the end bookends need to be on alternate blank rows.
20:19:42 <pikhq> And thats Worcestershire to you!
20:19:50 -!- Gregor has changed nick to GregorRichardsvi.
20:19:59 -!- GregorRichardsvi has changed nick to Richardsville.
20:20:10 <kreivikunta> Josiah "Pick Headquarters" Worcestershire, amirite
20:20:41 <pikhq> kreivikunta: Lawls
20:21:10 <kreivikunta> Because the end bits need to attach to an on row.
20:21:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:21:58 -!- Richardsville has changed nick to Richardsgrafstvo.
20:22:43 <Sgeo> http://www.wovencroft.com/Images/tm51610a.gif how helpful to have the time and date disappear and reappear like that
20:22:48 <oerjan> amirite would be a badass mineral
20:23:20 <oerjan> kreivikunta: shirely you can't be serious
20:24:21 <kreivikunta> But adding another row cannot possibly work!
20:26:14 <kreivikunta> I would like to inform you that that cannot possibly work.
20:27:38 <Sgeo> Fun. The mayor posts an rtf, and everyone has problems
20:28:49 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: So I need there to be off rows before the final on row that do not haev a pixel, right?
20:29:24 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: I don't just want to use your fixed version because I want to figure out what the heck I did wrong!
20:30:12 <kreivikunta> <Hoovershire> http://pastebin.com/pqjVb0mg
20:31:04 <Hoovershire> OK, you see how the row ends have dead cells with 3 live neighbours?
20:32:24 <Hoovershire> But the last row can't have a bookend on it.
20:33:11 -!- Hoovershire has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:33:32 -!- Hoovershire has joined.
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20:34:13 <kreivikunta> Note to self; make a program to generate stripe agar.
20:34:21 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: now i just need to figure out how to transmit signals :)
20:34:54 <Hoovershire> The simplest signal for a stripe agar is made as follows:
20:34:56 -!- Richardsgrafstvo has changed nick to Gregor.
20:35:50 <Hoovershire> At one end of the empty bit, put a cell one up from the stripe
20:36:19 <Hoovershire> Add a cell one down from the stripe at the next cell.
20:36:41 <Hoovershire> The cells up and down are at the back of the blip.
20:37:28 <kreivikunta> and the middle of the c has blanks after it
20:38:23 <Sgeo> There is someone here using Win98
20:38:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
20:39:32 <kreivikunta> It works; but when it reaches the end it destroys the agar.
20:40:16 <Sgeo> At this big, important event: 34 people
20:40:21 <Sgeo> 43 people online total
20:40:25 <Sgeo> Used to be hundreds
20:41:29 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:42:25 <Sgeo> Hoovershire, no
20:42:28 <kreivikunta> No, on some shitty old 3D VR game he likes
20:42:33 <Sgeo> At this "Town Hall" meeting
20:42:47 <Sgeo> kreivikunta, um, are you sure you're not alise in dis.. you're alise, aren't you?
20:43:17 <Hoovershire> kreivikunta: Yes, the blip is unstable at beginning and end.
20:43:32 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: There's no machine you can surgically attach to the end of the agar to keep it stable?
20:43:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:43:40 * Sgeo doesn't like it enough to pay $5/month
20:44:19 <Sgeo> Some areas of the city have been "fixed". DOn't know what could have possibly been broken, other than the fact that it's dying
20:44:20 <Hoovershire> I doubt we'll be able to find one without a search program.
20:44:24 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: So agar is not that useful, unless we can make stable, stationary machines that work inside agar.
20:44:33 <kreivikunta> (Then agar would essentially become a mini-CA in itself.)
20:44:51 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: Because you can't detect any signals, it's just chaos
20:45:18 <Sgeo> What about <thing that the new parent company has been promising for years>? "Dead"
20:46:02 <Sgeo> Seriously, I will say that I _HATE_ IVN
20:46:12 <Sgeo> (The company that owns Cybertown)
20:48:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
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20:49:04 <Sgeo> The most deadly thing to Cybertown was the newly added cost, and the fact that non-payers can do very, very little
20:49:06 <Sgeo> They can barely chat
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20:51:51 <oerjan> Hoovershire: XOR only gives you linear functions
20:52:38 <oerjan> you also need a 1 or EQV to get all of them
20:52:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:53:50 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice is all about what sets of boolean functions generate which others
20:54:44 <oerjan> XOR gives AP_0, with 1 too you get A
20:55:34 -!- marchdown has joined.
20:55:36 <oerjan> all affine boolean functions, i.e. f(x1,...,xn) x_(i_1) + ... + x_(i_k) + C
20:56:10 <oerjan> P_0 are the 0-preserving ones, AP_0 is their intersection
20:57:51 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:58:11 <Sgeo> http://www.integratedvirtualnetworks.com/index1.php?is_ct=1 <<===CYBERTOWN KILLERS
20:58:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:59:07 <Sgeo> Forced Cybertown to move to a subscription system
20:59:09 <oerjan> kreivikunta: top symbol, apparently
20:59:15 <oerjan> it's a lattice after all
20:59:50 <Hoovershire> http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html
20:59:52 <oerjan> kreivikunta: it's the top symbol, i said, it requires unicode
21:00:02 <oerjan> in that article's notation
21:00:25 <oerjan> kreivikunta: T is used for something else, although only with indexes
21:00:28 <Hoovershire> I've asked on the forum what the state of the art is, as that page is from 2008.
21:00:54 <kreivikunta> Hoovershire: link to the forum? think I've seen it before
21:00:58 <kreivikunta> also, is there a game of life irc channel?
21:01:20 <Hoovershire> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/index.php
21:01:55 -!- kreivikunta has changed nick to alise.
21:01:56 <oerjan> anyway there are 5 maximal subclasses of the top, M, A, P0, P1 and D. to generate everything you need to have a function outside each of them. note that one function can be outside several, e.g. NAND obviously isn't in any of them
21:02:29 -!- Hoovershire has set topic: Howsabout we put "esoteric programming languages" SOMEWHERE in the topic? | Esperanto is still bannable! | Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | Jag älskar Unicode i mina topicar. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:02:58 -!- Hoovershire has set topic: For Game of Life discussion go to #b2s23 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:03:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:03:33 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:03:37 <impomatic> Has anyone played with one of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SheevaPlug
21:03:44 -!- Hoovershire has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:03:51 <alise> I know people who have
21:04:30 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:05:33 <oerjan> M are monotonic functions. AND, OR, 0 and 1 generate all of them
21:08:54 <alise> copumpkin: #b3s23!
21:08:57 <alise> I could have done that in one message! :P
21:09:32 <oerjan> if you know which class each of your basic functions generate, that hasse diagram in the article tells you everything else about what it generates
21:09:42 <Sgeo> "We invite you to log in and learn more about Silhouette and the Nexos."
21:10:05 <alise> I DID NOT SAY JOINING WAS OPTIONAL
21:10:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:10:35 <oerjan> AND is /\P, OR is \/P, NOT is UD and XOR is AP_0
21:11:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:11:36 -!- ParaSait has joined.
21:11:44 <alise> what about op(a,b,c,d,e,f,...) := (a /\ c /\ e /\ ...) something (b \/ d \/ f \/ ...)
21:11:50 <oerjan> that table to the left of the diagram tells you a set of generators for each class
21:11:53 <alise> for different values of something
21:12:17 <ParaSait> *can somebody explain me FukYorBrane? :P*
21:12:28 <alise> ParaSait: no but Gregor can
21:12:59 <oerjan> alise: i think that depends a lot on "something"
21:12:59 <alise> oerjan: what do you mean er what
21:13:14 <alise> op(a,b,c,d,e,f,...) := (a /\ c /\ e /\ ...) xor (b \/ d \/ f \/ ...)
21:13:34 <oerjan> well op(a,b) is XOR itself
21:14:09 <Gregor> I'm not sure I can X-D
21:14:26 <ParaSait> Just had a few questions bout it
21:14:32 <Gregor> ParaSait: It's sort of like Brainfuck, except your "tape" is the other player's code, so you want to ... y'know ... break it.
21:14:36 <oerjan> alise: op(a,a) is 0, then you get op(a,0,c) = a /\ c and op (0,b,0,d) = b \/ d
21:15:29 <Gregor> ParaSait: It switches your "write head" from one program to the other.
21:15:32 <alise> oerjan: can you get not
21:15:40 <alise> op(a,1) would do it
21:15:41 <Gregor> I, err, don't recall how it decides where to land you in the other program >_>
21:15:52 <alise> we have 0, and, or, xor...
21:15:58 <ParaSait> Heh. That's what I was wondering too :P
21:16:02 <alise> Gregor: same location?
21:16:05 <oerjan> alise: you get P_0. it does not contain not.
21:16:18 <oerjan> alise: you need a 1 to get not from xor
21:16:21 <Gregor> alise: Could be, mabye modulo program size or something? I'd have to look at the code to recall.
21:17:03 <oerjan> alise: (P_0 has \/ and + listed as generators)
21:17:32 * Sgeo decides that he may pay $5 every few months
21:17:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:18:03 <alise> op(a,b,c,d,e,f,...) := (a xor c xor e xor ...) and (b xand d xand f xand ...)
21:18:03 <oerjan> alise: basically P_0 is every function which maps all 0's to 0
21:18:10 <alise> does xand even make any sense
21:18:20 <alise> a xor b = (a or b) and not (a and b)
21:18:23 <alise> a xand b = (a and b) and not (a and b)
21:18:24 <oerjan> alise: do you mean <-> ?
21:18:38 <alise> oerjan: yeah let's go with that
21:18:39 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:18:43 <alise> op(a,b,c,d,e,f,...) := (a xor c xor e xor ...) and (b eqv d eqv f eqv ...)
21:18:57 <ParaSait> Gregor: Well I could do some research in the source of that fyb implementation. But I can't actually run that program cause for some reason it crashes asa I exec it with those 2 args
21:19:14 <oerjan> well op(a,b) = a and b
21:20:06 <Gregor> ParaSait: AFAIK it's just ./fukyorbrane <program> <program
21:20:08 <oerjan> op(a,a) = a and a, that doesn't help much
21:20:28 <oerjan> op(a,a,a,a) = (a xor a) and (a <-> a) = 0
21:20:34 <Gregor> ParaSait: And E_WORKSFORME. What's your platform?
21:20:42 <alise> op(a,b,b,c) := (a xor b) and (b = c)
21:20:56 <alise> = (a or b) and not (a and b) and (b = c)
21:21:53 <alise> op(a,b,c,c) := (a xor c) and (b = c)
21:22:15 <oerjan> op(a,0,c,0) = (a xor c) and 1 = a xor c
21:22:27 <ParaSait> Gregor: Vista. Compiled with codeblocks
21:22:34 <oerjan> we have and, xor and 0
21:23:53 <oerjan> we cannot ensure the xor part is 1
21:24:09 <alise> hasn't it been proven that nand and nor are the only universal ones
21:24:32 -!- marchdown has quit (Quit: marchdown).
21:24:34 <oerjan> only for binary operators, i think
21:24:58 <oerjan> and this is not even a single function really
21:26:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:26:57 <oerjan> i think this is also P_0, we cannot get anything more
21:28:20 <oerjan> hm or wait and is just /\P
21:29:48 <Gregor> ParaSait: laaaaaaaaaaaawlz
21:29:56 <Gregor> ParaSait: Not guaranteed to work on shitty OSes :P
21:29:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:30:05 <alise> op(a,b,c) := (a nor c) xor b
21:30:19 <Gregor> ParaSait: That being said, it really still ought to >_>
21:30:27 <alise> = (not (a or b)) xor b
21:30:34 <Gregor> Do you have more details than "it crashed" as per why it crashed?
21:30:58 <alise> = ([not (a or b)] or b) and not ([not (a or b)] and b)
21:31:04 <oerjan> op(a,a,a) = (not a) xor a = 1
21:31:42 <alise> = (not (a or c)) xor b
21:31:49 <alise> = ([not (a or c)] or b) and not ([not (a or c)] and b)
21:32:37 <alise> (a nor c) xor b seems to be the simplest way to phrase it.
21:32:51 <alise> oerjan: you can't get 0 without one 0 already
21:33:11 <oerjan> simple enough. we get 1, or
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21:33:49 <alise> op(a,b,c) := (a xor b) nor (a xor c)
21:34:03 <alise> op(a,a,a) := (a xor a) nor (a xor a) = 0 nor 0 = not (0 or 0) = 1
21:34:04 <ParaSait> Gregor: Well I run it with the line: fukyorbrane.exe prog1.fyb prog2.fyb, then I get a console window and immediately a stopped working message
21:34:11 <oerjan> er is this still the same one?
21:34:23 <Gregor> ParaSait: I don't know what a "stopped working message" is ...
21:34:31 <oerjan> alise: i wasn't quite finished
21:34:44 <alise> but i proved it isn't complete!
21:35:24 <ParaSait> Gregor: Well you know. Windows detects a runtime error and then gives a little window that says it's looking for a solution and eventually wants to make an error report, etc etc
21:35:27 <oerjan> well sure, but 1 and or only give us VP_1 which has the whole T tower above it
21:35:37 <Gregor> ParaSait: Ah ... well that's quite useless.
21:35:46 <oerjan> so it could be any of those
21:35:51 <Gregor> So anywho, EgoBot can run FYB :P
21:35:54 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for fyb!
21:35:59 <Gregor> EgoBot: WELL SCREW YOU THEN
21:36:03 <oerjan> (well the right T tower)
21:36:19 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for fukyorbrane!
21:36:49 <Gregor> ParaSait: It has a full-on FYB hill, but I apparently was too stupid to put any of that in !help :P
21:37:06 <oerjan> <alise> op(a,b,c) := (a nor c) xor b
21:37:52 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_badmangler: 0.0
21:38:00 <Gregor> Now where does it put the hill ...
21:38:10 <Gregor> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/in_egobot/
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21:39:01 -!- copumpkin has left (?).
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21:39:33 <ParaSait> The bot might be able to run fyb, but I still don't get it xD
21:39:46 <Gregor> Well, you can read the code even if you can't make it work on Windoze :P
21:43:38 -!- marchdown has joined.
21:43:50 * pikhq lurves using the stack pointer as a general purpose register
21:49:06 <Gregor> The stack is for the weak.
21:51:21 <oerjan> alise: ok i've confirmed that is not in T_1^2 and now my head hurts :D
21:51:27 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:51:31 <oerjan> which means it must be P_1
21:51:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:52:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Can we run it on #b3s23 with bgolly as one of the programs?
21:52:53 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:53:13 <Gregor> You can put whatever programs you want to on it.
21:53:20 <Gregor> So long as you do it yourself :P
21:53:29 <Gregor> As per putting it on another channel, sure.
21:57:17 <oerjan> 22:33 alise> op(a,b,c) := (a xor b) nor (a xor c)
21:57:17 <oerjan> 22:33 alise> op(a,a,a) := (a xor a) nor (a xor a) = 0 nor 0 = not (0 or 0) = 1
21:57:23 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:58:20 <oerjan> alise: on to the next one you said
21:58:40 <oerjan> i don't think you can get 0 in it
21:58:55 <alise> you know we could just write a computer program to figure out all this
21:59:01 <alise> i mean it is just a truth table...
21:59:20 <oerjan> basically to check for containment in P_0 and P_1 all you need to do is apply the function to all 1's and all 0's respectively
21:59:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:00:19 <alise> well, yeah, exactly
22:00:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
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22:00:49 <oerjan> M, D and A aren't too hard to check either
22:01:11 <oerjan> so yeah a program could check if everything is generated
22:01:23 <alise> eh, sounds fun, /me writes it
22:01:26 <alise> not with your freaky post names though
22:01:30 <alise> with durned good easy names
22:02:21 <oerjan> i learned this stuff from post's original book, he used another completely different notation
22:03:05 <oerjan> this notation is actually an improvement :D
22:03:59 <oerjan> (much less unexplained indexes, most combinations are written with intersection/concatenation instead)
22:05:27 <alise> (p == q) == ~((p\/q) /\ ~(p /\ q))
22:05:27 <oerjan> it's pretty clearly possible to write a program to check exactly which class is generated, too
22:05:34 <alise> ~(~p /\ ~q) = p \/ q
22:05:39 <alise> ~(p /\ ~q) = ~p \/ q
22:05:52 <alise> (p == q) == ~(p \/ q) \/ (p /\ q)
22:05:56 <alise> (p == q) == (p nor q) \/ (p /\ q)
22:06:15 <oerjan> um, i guess class = clone in the modern notation
22:08:42 * alise gets bored of writing the program :P
22:09:27 <Sgeo> AnMaster, "If you're still not convinced, then construct such a pattern for yourself. You'll find that it either functions below lightspeed, explodes, or otherwise detects the 'ghost' LWSSes as being actual ones, and emits a spaceship regardless of whether a spaceship actually entered the device."
22:14:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]).
22:25:53 -!- ParaSait has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
22:27:42 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/sml SML FUCK YEAH
22:30:15 * Sgeo might get a 30 day renewal of Cybertown access
22:31:01 <alise> http://www.list4everything.com/list-of-idioms-to-use-at-workplace.html
22:31:05 <alise> LIST OF IDIOMS TO USE AT WORKPLACE
22:31:36 <alise> http://www.list4everything.com/sentences-that-are-used-repeatedly-by-professionals.html
22:31:40 <alise> SENTENCES THAT ARE USED REPEATEDLY BY PROFESSIONALS
22:32:13 <oerjan> oh wait, that's not a sentence.
22:33:02 <alise> It's missing mathematicians
22:33:11 <alise> Perhaps "I conjecture that ..."
22:33:30 <oerjan> well then it is presumably correct, modulo mathematicians.
22:33:46 * Sgeo is in CyberTown!
22:34:36 <oerjan> "We leave it as an exercise for the reader..."
22:34:50 <oerjan> all mathematicians love that one. trust me.
22:35:36 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:38:39 <alise> oerjan: is the proof left as an exer-
22:40:00 <oerjan> as much as possible of it, anyhow
22:40:57 <oerjan> my advisor sometimes referred to "proofs by general nonsense", although i'm not sure that term is very popular
22:41:24 <oerjan> this applied especially to heavy use of category theory :)
22:42:04 -!- marchdown has quit (Quit: marchdown).
22:42:24 <alise> oerjan: category theory = general abstract nonsense
22:43:15 <oerjan> hm there are actually google hits to apparently real papers using the term
22:44:10 <alise> well it's a very common term
22:44:18 <alise> old too (1940s says wp)
22:44:22 <alise> i love category theory
22:44:32 <alise> it's... everything
22:45:05 <alise> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AbstractNonsense1.png
22:45:12 <alise> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AbstractNonsense2.png
22:45:15 <alise> oerjan: ^ relevant
22:46:55 <oerjan> my first published paper had some nice abstract nonsense in it, i recall
22:47:07 <oerjan> (not using that term though)
22:47:41 <oerjan> "by the naturality of the pimsner-voiculescu exact sequence" iirc
22:48:04 <alise> one day I will undersatnd your papers
22:48:39 <oerjan> we didn't actually find a reference that it _was_ natural, although i did check that it was, and we didn't bother to elaborate on that... :)
22:50:21 <oerjan> (i guess we left the proof as an exercise for any reader smart enough to notice it was needed)
22:51:45 * Sgeo decides that Cybertown "freemail" is poorly named
22:52:52 <alise> oerjan: mathematicians basically hate each other don't they
22:53:00 <alise> "I DO have a proof for this, but I'll let you do it instead..."
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22:55:14 <oerjan> in our case it wasn't so much that we wanted them to do it as that it was obvious it _should_ be true and would require a lot of work to write down that was really unrelated to the rest of the paper
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23:08:09 <alise> I WANT IT TO BE TRUE
23:20:07 * pikhq has code that segfaults when not run under valgrind
23:22:03 <oerjan> alise: consider 0 and a -> b = (not a) or b
23:22:26 <oerjan> 0 is not in P_1 or D, while -> is not in P_0, M, A or D.
23:22:35 <oerjan> thus together they generate everything.
23:23:42 <alise> hmm how do you do and without quantifiers...
23:24:29 <alise> it makes sense, but ugh
23:24:46 <oerjan> we _are_ talking boolean logic here
23:26:19 <alise> I'm just so used to the constructive-function meaning of ->
23:26:26 <alise> so the ~a \/ b one freaks me out sometimes
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23:34:35 <oerjan> "The relative simplicity of Post's lattice is in stark contrast to the lattice of clones on a three-element (or larger) set, which has the cardinality of the continuum, and a complicated inner structure."
23:35:39 * oerjan wonders if even determining whether a set of 3-valued functions generate _everything_ is hard
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23:46:41 <pikhq> Mmm, Brainfuck-to-assembly compiler...
23:46:53 <alise> Assembly-to-Brainfuck compiler
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23:55:04 <Sgeo> How does a p2 spaceship travelling at c make sense??
23:56:24 <alise> non-standard analysis is so cool
23:56:31 <alise> Sgeo: it can't unless it has some sort of agar or wire...
23:56:44 <alise> it moves right all the time
23:57:14 <alise> so it's two c-travelling spaceships that change into each other every generation
23:58:04 <Sgeo> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b0236s2345/g1.html
23:58:52 <Sgeo> What would be cool is different areas of space following different rules
00:01:48 <alise> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b0236s2345/
00:02:09 <alise> 32 rules, pretty good
00:04:08 <Sgeo> The "latest news" on the wiki is from 2009
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00:20:32 <pikhq_> cachegrind is pretty amazing at making code run slow.
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00:22:37 <oerjan> hopefully it grinds exceedingly small
00:27:37 <pikhq_> Welp, that confirms my suspicions. This sucker runs entirely out of the cache.
00:27:49 <pikhq_> Including the instruction cache.
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00:29:18 * oerjan thought that would be a good thing...
00:30:30 <pikhq_> Cachegrind is *not* a thing you run to check for bugs. ;)
00:31:22 <pikhq_> It checks for cache hits and misses, or branch prediction misses.
00:32:14 <pikhq_> And does so by compiling machine code to an intermediate code, adding profiling code, and then JITing.
00:32:20 <pikhq_> Valgrind is freaking crazy.
00:34:01 <olsner> valgrind is awesome :)
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00:52:27 * Sgeo is so tempted to take his phone off the cable
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01:03:05 <pikhq> ==20208== More than 10000000 total errors detected. I'm not reporting any more.
01:08:23 <Sgeo> pikhq, is this your insane C thing?
01:09:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: Insane *assembly* thing.
01:15:01 <poiuy_qwert> I have a double that im using as an arg in a string (string.arg(double)), is there a way to have it omit the decimal if its just .000000?
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01:22:13 <oerjan> bottastrophic more like
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01:26:46 <zzo38> Do you know, how to read/write a Java stream on a network socket, without Java?
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01:49:45 <poiuy_qwert> anyone ever played with the Gammaplex interpreter?
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02:08:02 <Sgeo> Is alise still here?
02:13:28 <Sgeo> [About Pure Glider Generators] "There was some interest in these early on, but they are no longer considered important. Here's a neat example: "
02:13:34 <Sgeo> What's "important"?
02:15:45 <Sgeo> There's no reason to use the pond over the beehive for 1-2-3-4's induction coil, is there?
02:15:54 <Sgeo> What's "useful" in GoL?
02:16:21 <alise> Useful for achieving things as parts of other things
02:16:32 <alise> Sgeo: Proof of c/4 maximum diagonal limit: http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=79#p248
02:16:46 <alise> Um, I think it's a c/2 proof as well...
02:16:51 <Sgeo> Saw that, was going to look at it again
02:17:00 <Sgeo> Yeah, uses c/4 proof as part of c/2 proof
02:18:01 <Sgeo> That.. seems to assume things about the shape of the spaceship
02:21:27 <alise> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b3s24/g5.html c/3 diagonal spaceship
02:21:59 <Sgeo> "If you're still not convinced, then construct such a pattern for yourself."
02:22:13 <Sgeo> You don't even need to do that. Just decide "What is a spaceship in this location"
02:22:29 <Sgeo> You won't get consistently correct results faster than c
02:22:52 <Sgeo> erm, if you're looking sooner than the information can propagate at c
02:23:40 <alise> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b3457s4568/g1.html This thing moves one cell downwards every 5648 generations in B3457/S4568.
02:24:49 <Sgeo> It will take forever for it to bring its passengers to the far side of the torus!
02:25:03 <alise> Still, not bad: in our world, it would be moving at 53,079 m/s.
02:25:51 <Sgeo> I suppose it's not possible to say what a cell, or what a generation, converted to our measurements would be
02:25:57 <Sgeo> Hm, maybe a cell == plank's length
02:26:40 <alise> Sgeo: CAs have discrete space and time so you cannot really compare them to fuzziness like planck length :)
02:26:59 <alise> Sgeo: cell != planck length
02:27:04 <alise> because then speed of light would be one planck length / s
02:27:36 <Sgeo> You're assuming that 1 generation = 1 second
02:27:47 <Sgeo> Assuming s == second
02:28:06 <alise> c in our world = 299 792 458 m / s
02:28:14 <alise> I suppose you can tweak things to make tha twork
02:28:39 <alise> 1/299792458 seconds = ~3.33564095 nanoseconds
02:28:52 <alise> So it could be that one generation is ~3.33 nanoseconds.
02:29:16 <alise> Then it'd be 1 meter / 3.33 nanoseconds
02:29:31 <Sgeo> For some reason, I asssumed 1 gen = 1 planck time
02:31:56 <uorygl> Well, the speed of light is one Planck length per Planck time.
02:31:58 <alise> So in our universe, c is however much light travels in one planck time.
02:32:00 <alise> So, what uorygl said.
02:32:08 <alise> 1 cell = 1 Planck length; 1 generation = 1 Planck time.
02:32:10 <uorygl> So if one cell is one Planck length and one generation is one Planck time, it all works out.
02:32:12 <alise> Now the issue with this is...
02:32:21 <alise> Cells behaviour is Too Fucking Complex for Planck length stuff!
02:32:44 <uorygl> Eh, particles' behavior is pretty complex, too.
02:33:12 <alise> not planck lengths
02:35:55 <Sgeo> We should make a GoL program that speeds up the time between generations so that it properly matches the size of the cells
02:36:36 <Sgeo> Larger cells == more time between generations, right?
02:37:39 <Sgeo> Let's say plack length is l, plack time is t, and speed of light = c
02:37:55 <Sgeo> Then 1/t=c, and 2l/2t=c
02:38:00 <Sgeo> So why does it feel wrong?
02:41:01 <uorygl> The bigger something is, the more time it takes for light to travel across it.
02:41:24 <uorygl> That is the sole relevant fact you have utilized.
02:41:27 <alise> B01367/S012 is worthy of study; it has small replicators and glider guns.
02:42:14 <alise> Also, a breeder: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ca/replicators/b01367s012-breeder.lif which also renders the Sierpinski triangle as it goes.
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02:44:35 <alise> & spaceships form naturally.
02:44:41 <alise> Looks very different to Life.
02:45:06 <alise> Cool -- I accidentally made a space filler.
02:45:13 <uorygl> Make you say "different to".
02:45:31 <alise> x = 2, y = 3, rule = B01367/S012
02:45:40 <alise> A nice one at that
02:46:48 <alise> It seems many things become spacefillers
02:51:07 <uorygl> That rule has B0; I don't really like that.
02:51:31 <uorygl> Especially since Golly can't do HashLife with it.
02:52:51 <alise> HashLife sucks for examining small patterns, because it's asynchronous.
02:53:21 <alise> Anyway, point is that it doesn't produce the "gobs of cellular goop" that things like Day & Night do; it's reasonably Life-like, but it seems distinctly different from Life in "style", having more blobs of flesh and the like.
02:53:31 <alise> And also having lots of random patterns spawn fast spacefillers.
02:53:41 <uorygl> This rule does not die down. Life does.
02:54:16 <uorygl> Randomly-created patterns tend to become essentially static.
02:54:35 <alise> But at the same time, there are intricate patterns: glider guns, breeders, replicators.
02:54:45 <alise> Philosopher: Can we ever be certain an observation is true?
02:54:45 <alise> Engineer: Lookin'.
02:54:45 <alise> --Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal
02:55:53 <alise> There is a difference between solid mathematical proof and extreme probability... it's just that, you know, at some point we have to consider the probability that there's an error in the mathematical proof that everyone missed
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02:56:04 <alise> and then realising that what we consider solid mathematical proof is actually quite fallible
02:56:24 <alise> If everyone used computerised proof verifiers, then there'd be a much larger gap between widely-accepted-mathematical-proof and tons-of-evidence.
02:57:07 <uorygl> Also, what SMBC is that?
02:57:58 <alise> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1879#comic
03:24:25 <alise> I have to be up in 5.5 hours.
03:24:37 <alise> Mathnerd314: I assume you know what Life is and are merely inquiring about its esolang status -- yes. But perhaps more of an esosimulation.
03:24:52 <alise> Certainly we can make things in it, things that compute, things that combine; certainly it is Turing-complete; and certainly it is esoteric.
03:24:59 <alise> Make your own decision. Also, #b3s23 is lonely.
03:25:07 <alise> Not unless you use a horrible analogy.
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03:40:37 <Sgeo> Hope you make more progress than has been visible
03:41:13 <Sgeo> Well, start making progress!
03:41:43 <alise> Sgeo: You try moving country.
03:43:28 <alise> Moving -- remotely.
03:43:31 <alise> Almost a contradiction.
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03:45:18 <alise> Thank you, everyone; and good night.
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05:33:34 <Mathnerd314> hmm, I wonder if a language could be both esoteric and have a readable "hello world" program
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06:06:28 <coppro> Mathnerd314: Acme::Eyedrops
06:08:37 <coppro> which overlaps significantly with the useful subset
06:08:49 <Sgeo> coppro, see my message in ##nomic ?
06:09:08 <Sgeo> Am I paranoid?
06:09:32 <pikhq> Depends. Is a demon about to eat your face off?
06:10:17 <Sgeo> A demon might, but probably won't, eat Agora
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13:00:44 <fizzie> Well, sort-of, but still busy.
13:00:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you want a cheap panoramic head?
13:01:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, it does require some bit of work. It is kind of DIY but it is programmable
13:01:30 <fizzie> I would like to hear about it, yes, but do not count on many comments back.
13:01:33 <AnMaster> and if you already have the parts (which seems plausible)...
13:01:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, lego. Let me find the link
13:01:51 <AnMaster> http://www.philohome.com/panobot2/panobot2.htm
13:02:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is a link somewhere there to someone who did manage to rotate it around the nodal point (the model on that page isn't front-heavy enough)
13:02:28 <AnMaster> (so it is just behind the nodal point iirc)
13:03:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, of course it need to be adapted to the camera model in question but I think it would be feasible for me to make something like that for my camera. :)
13:03:35 <AnMaster> I even have an RCX so a nice automatic rotate-take-photo would work
13:03:45 <fizzie> I was sort of guessing it was about lego; after all, what can't you do with that stuff?
13:04:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, heck I found a webpage with someone who made an mobile crane in lego. Able to lift 1 kg...
13:05:26 <fizzie> There's that "lego auto factory" video, which might not be mind-blowingly "wow", but still a nice watch.
13:05:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, it did use two non-standard parts though... the model that didn't was still able to lift about 250 g but beyond that it started buckling considerably iirc. So that gal (!) who made it added some metal reinforcement to the boom
13:05:56 <AnMaster> http://www.jenniferclarkbass.com//lego/demag_crane.htm <-- reinforced
13:06:05 <AnMaster> http://www.jenniferclarkbass.com//lego/crane.htm <-- previous non-reinforced
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13:07:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is some heavy duty lego. Able to actually drive over rather uneven terrain (most "official" lego models tend to be about looks rather than actual functionality when it comes to stuff like lego technic offroad models, IME)
13:08:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you have the required stuff to build a turn table like that? I seem to have most (and quite a bit more)
13:08:14 <AnMaster> was some time ago I last used lego though
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13:10:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, and a panoramic head should be considerably simpler than an "as accurate as possible" scale model of an "all-terrain" mobile crane... :P
13:10:31 <AnMaster> (so what if some reinforcement sticks out? it doesn't need to look like anything in specific
13:10:31 <fizzie> I don't really own anything recent; I had few bits from the old "Technic" era, but nothing programmable. I do have some friends that are more lego-enthusiastic, though.
13:10:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you have a motor and one of those battery packs it should be doable still
13:10:55 <ais523> technic is out of date? what a pity
13:11:09 <ais523> and the motors were awful, they weren't powerful enough to do very much at all
13:11:21 <AnMaster> ais523, the ones from the RCX era and later were powerful
13:11:48 <ais523> hmm, the technic ones, if you tried to gear them down to be more powerful, tended to just not move at all because of the friction in the gears
13:11:52 <AnMaster> saw some page (web archive :/) that measured their relative strength
13:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, do you mean the fast spinning long grey box ones?
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13:12:29 <fizzie> I don't know where my lego bits are; it's possible they're all in some unlabeled box at my father's storage room thing.
13:12:29 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, and later the shorter grey box ones with attachment above, which were much the same
13:12:36 <AnMaster> ais523, or the newer, cubish ones? with power atop
13:12:48 <AnMaster> ais523, the cubish ones are more powerful but they came in two variants
13:12:55 <ais523> fizzie: I know mine are all in one of about 100 unlabeled boxes at my house
13:12:57 <AnMaster> ais523, the modern one is lighter and weaker
13:13:06 <AnMaster> ais523, only outside difference is the number iirc.
13:13:31 <fizzie> There were some cat-related complications in all lego projects anyway. I doubt the new model (of cat, I mean) would be any less... "helpful".
13:13:37 <AnMaster> ais523, but yeah less mass acting as a fly-wheel, you can hear the difference when turning them by hand (if you have one of each to compare)
13:14:16 <AnMaster> ais523, also higher friction at "free floating" mode with the newer power-above variant than the older power-above
13:14:48 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I have too much lego to fit it in one box :D
13:14:50 <ais523> wow, you really analysed this a lot
13:14:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a very large box
13:15:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I have two RCX sets. One 1.5 and one 2.0
13:15:07 <fizzie> Maybe I could train that Roomba to be a robotic panorama head. It'd just need some sort of portable table to get high enough. :p
13:15:17 <AnMaster> ais523, the 2.0 ones came with the worse motors. the 1.5 one had the better motors
13:15:27 <fizzie> (With an added bonus that it'd be cleaning places while taking pictures.)
13:15:28 <AnMaster> I believe I have 3 or 4 better and about as many worse ones
13:16:15 <AnMaster> ais523, but see this url, really worth the picture. It is a panoramic head for a camera built with lego. And can be programmed to take a 360° shot
13:16:17 <AnMaster> http://www.philohome.com/panobot2/panobot2.htm
13:16:30 <AnMaster> I know you filter urls but yeah check logs
13:16:38 <ais523> hmm, I can imagine what it would look like
13:16:49 <AnMaster> ais523, it is for one of them old nikon coolpix or whatever
13:17:07 <AnMaster> I plan doing one of those thus summer (adapting for the dimensions of my camera of course)
13:17:28 <AnMaster> since I have a zoom lens I think I need some sort of movable camera "grip"
13:17:39 <AnMaster> so I can adjust it for the nodal point of a given zoom level
13:18:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well with zoom level, how could the nodal point *not* vary?
13:18:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, also http://www.philohome.com/legophoto.htm has some other interesting photo stuff for lego
13:18:44 <fizzie> You could design the sensor to move so that it's compensated. :p
13:19:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, eh, it would need to look at photos and process the data
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13:19:13 <AnMaster> I doubt I could do that in an RCX
13:19:29 <AnMaster> what with no camera stuff for it
13:19:42 <AnMaster> and very limited processing capabilities
13:19:46 <fizzie> No, I mean, the camera could do that, to make it independent of zoom level. Of course they don't. But they could.
13:20:29 <fizzie> Speaking of panoramas, here's a 360-degree one with the N900 not-quite-a-camera, with no tripod or anything, horrible parallax on the pier part and even worse white-balance/exposure problems for the part taken directly against sunlight: http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi.jpg
13:20:49 <AnMaster> oh for a phone it would be trivial to design a working such lego pano head
13:21:21 <AnMaster> would need some counter balance to not tip (so yeah going to be careful when testing it initially!)
13:21:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, a bit less crop on that pier(?) would have been nice
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13:22:43 <fizzie> Had to crop quite heavily since I couldn't quite keep the horizon at the same level while turning around.
13:23:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, well okay, it kind of looked like a short pier and you were standing on opposite shore. It looks kind of less than 360
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13:23:07 <AnMaster> probably due to the low height?
13:23:51 <ais523> ugh, connection trouble
13:24:14 <fizzie> Could be. It's also scaled to pretty low resolution because there was a piece of debris on the lens, making the middle regions of all shots pretty blurry, which I noticed only at home.
13:25:26 <fizzie> Hrm, for some reason the images don't seem to contain GPS tags. I must also have turned that off at some point. Aw.
13:25:41 <ais523> because you don't want us knowing where you live?
13:26:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you could build less advanced pano heads even without an rcx. two motors (one to turn, one to drive shutter arm) would be best I guess. One motor to rotate and then manual shutter might still work if the design is heavy enough. And even manual rotation with a heavy design should offer some improvement compared to ball head or no tripod
13:26:39 <AnMaster> I think this would be best to put on a table or such though. I doubt I could mount it on my tripod
13:29:02 <AnMaster> hm also my memory card is rather slow, I would need some way to set the time delay between shots...
13:29:48 <AnMaster> wth, I'm still logged in after not using that site for several years
13:29:54 <AnMaster> some long lived cookie certainly
13:30:26 <fizzie> That particular photo is not exactly from where I live, anyway: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=60.277494,24.512987&spn=0.040257,0.104456&z=14
13:30:34 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if a site can detect a browser's saved-password and automatically click submit?
13:31:57 <fizzie> I would think the saved-form-information, after being filled in to the fields (and visible to the user), would be accessible to the scripts too. You might not get a change notification on the field, but you could poll.
13:32:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I hope not. Some js to check time it took to type it in
13:33:12 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it said logged in and such already on the main page so it wasn't that
13:33:23 <ais523> I know, just thought it would be an interesting concept
13:35:05 <fizzie> I think there's been at least one case of a web developer wanting fancy form-validation insta-feedback, and made the password field have a green/red background based on whether what's written in the field so far was a prefix of the correct password or not, and updating that after each keypress.
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13:36:49 <AnMaster> ais523, very nice site that one: http://peeron.com/inv/parts/5306b for example, I can see on that url how many of that parts I have (since I added lego sets list to my account).
13:37:12 <AnMaster> iirc you can upload an ldraw file (a lego cad format) and it can tell if you have the needed parts
13:37:22 <AnMaster> and I can get a listing of all parts too
13:37:42 <fizzie> But isn't it a well-known truth that there's never enough parts?
13:38:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure but this can tell you like "sorry, not enough parts" or "sorry, not enough in the right colours, but if you use other colours you will have enough" or "yay, enough parts".
13:39:09 <AnMaster> (listing which parts you are missing, of course and so on)
13:39:19 <fizzie> ais523: Completely coincidentally, does your URL filtering block whole comments that happen to contain URLs, or just remove/replace the URL part?
13:39:20 <AnMaster> (and I don't remember the actual wording, was years ago I used it)
13:39:28 <AnMaster> since well, there are very few ldraw tools for linux
13:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, does it mark it in some way so you can see "url removed"
13:40:05 <AnMaster> ah, so we can't use that for secret info passing
13:40:13 <AnMaster> like passing fake urls to hide the info from you
13:40:19 <fizzie> ais523: Does it leave the domain name in place so that you can make educated guesses as to whether it would be worth the hassle?
13:40:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, like http://ais523.org/loves/talk/behind/his/back, very nice site ;P
13:40:51 <fizzie> http://example.com/ais523_is_a_boogerhead.am_I_not_right.html
13:41:06 <fizzie> It seems we may have had a rather similar idea there.
13:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you might want to check the logs there for a good laugh ;P
13:41:53 <fizzie> Well, it's not an especially unexpected thing.
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13:42:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does that word even mean?
13:42:48 <fizzie> Boogers are what come out of your nose. You know, snot.
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13:43:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you might want to check the logs there for a good laugh ;P
13:43:35 <AnMaster> (not sure if that went through first time)
13:44:05 <ais523> it didn't, but they don't look particularly amusing
13:44:13 <ais523> if you want to talk behind someone's back, you can always use /msg
13:44:16 <ais523> or even create a new channel
13:44:27 <fizzie> Oh, but that's not the same at all.
13:44:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, the main issue I see [with the lego panohead] is the rather small turn table size. and that the camera if centered on the nodal point will have it's weight distributed far from the center above the turn table
13:44:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, which means I need some counter weight plus a very wide base below the turn table
13:45:01 <ais523> besides, talking behind someone's back in a publically logged channel seems likely to backfire by accident
13:45:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, see http://home.arcor.de/markus.matern/Robotics/PanoBotCoolPix995/PanoBotCoolPix995_23.gif for turn table size
13:45:29 <fizzie> ais523: It's the audacity of it.
13:46:03 <ais523> besides, if you're not an op, if someone's firing insults at you pretty much all you can do is /ignore them
13:46:12 <ais523> if you're hiding the insults, then it saves someone the trouble of ignoring
13:46:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, also those instructions on that page are better than lego's own. These highlight new pieces in each step. Meaning an end to the search of "hm so where do all the bits listed as needed for this step go?"
13:46:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, the effect is rather visible in http://home.arcor.de/markus.matern/Robotics/PanoBotCoolPix995/PanoBotCoolPix995_30.gif
13:48:44 <fizzie> It looks nice, yes, if not quite as polished as the official instructions tend to be.
13:49:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, depends on how old the set in question is
13:49:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I saw some better renderings with more recent ldraw tools
13:50:16 <AnMaster> (there is some tool for that yes)
13:50:35 <fizzie> Right, I was going to say they could spend a few bit-bucks on some anti-aliasing.
13:51:39 <AnMaster> hm I wonder if I could build something to vary the exposure? I do have a micromotor iirc
13:52:25 <AnMaster> that uses the 3 outputs then of one RCX, and I'd rather not need to use 2. would be too bulky
13:52:46 <fizzie> A bit of remote-controllability in the camera would be nice, too. Though a robot pressing buttons always gets some spare awesomeness-points.
13:52:51 <AnMaster> well one on the base to stabilise it and one as part of the counterweight
13:53:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have one of those RCX IR-remote-controls
13:53:20 <AnMaster> it lets you manually run motors and also start programs
13:53:36 <AnMaster> only issue is that with two RCX it would be... messy
13:53:50 <AnMaster> sure they can use IR themselves to talk between each other but the remote would drive both
13:54:37 <AnMaster> and yeah that brickos custom firmware is a dead project. And the required cross compiler was never ported to anything newer than GCC 2.9x iirc
13:55:08 <AnMaster> so I'd probably prefer NQC with lego's own firmware, even though it has a lot of restrictions...
13:56:45 <fizzie> Somewhat relatedly, the N900 has an IR led, but none of the official software uses it for anything, and it's not listed in any of the marketing material; I think some maemo.org wiki page mentions it, but that's pretty unofficial. I haven't yet found out any use for it, but I'd like to. There's an irreco port so you can make it emulate just about any IR-based remote control, but I don't have anything that would be controllable that way.
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14:04:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, for RCX it doesn't use the "standard" data IR freq iirc
14:05:49 <AnMaster> hm another issue with the base of that panohead is that it must not be wide enough to show up in the image
14:13:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I just realised another thing. If possible the panohead should be somewhat modular and easy to take apart/reassemble. Since you will probably end up moving it quite a lot
14:16:49 <AnMaster> hm it would be nice with ability to rotate up/down too... but I doubt I could pull that off
14:17:59 <AnMaster> I mean, sure I can see how can be done in theory but not with lego
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14:33:42 <fizzie> The N900 lirc_rx51 module seems to support setting the carrier frequency to anything between 20 kHz ... 500 kHz. A bit of a moot point since I don't have RCX remote-control-receivers either, though.
14:34:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm iirc 75 kHz for RCX
14:36:29 <AnMaster> eh seems to vary with versions
14:36:44 <fizzie> It seems to be software-driven, so higher frequencies == more interrupts, but I guess it doesn't really matter for short bursts of signals.
14:37:15 <AnMaster> RCX 1.x used 38.5 kHz and RCX 2.x used 75 kHz
14:37:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you set 2400 baud?
14:38:01 <fizzie> 38 kHz is the "standard" one. Makes one wonder why they bothered changing it.
14:38:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, since it seems that it simply uses light on/off for one period to represent 1/0
14:42:24 <AnMaster> "The IR interface on the RCX is able to communicate with Spybots, Scout Bricks, Lego Train, and the NXT (using a third-party infrared link sensor.) The RCX 1.0 IR receiver carrier frequency is 38.5 kHz, while the RCX 2.0 IR carrier frequency is 76 kHz. Both versions can transmit on either frequency.[6] The carrier signal is generated by one of the RCX's internal timers. The RCX communicates with a co
14:42:25 <AnMaster> mputer using a Serial or USB IR tower."
14:44:46 <fizzie> I am under the impression that the lirc interface is flexible enough for any sort of low-enough-data-rate signals, but I've never used it. The kernel driver side seems to take just a list of timings when to turn the light on/off. (And when on, it independently flickers it at that configurable carrier frequency, but that's of course not related to data rates.)
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15:23:59 <fizzie> Tar-and-feathers bomb.
15:25:04 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm, I wonder why tar hasn't been extended to detect tarbombs?
15:25:18 <ais523> it could have a --no-tarbomb command line option that you could add to your shell aliases
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15:27:10 <ais523> first, let's see if I can build this without changes, shouldn't be too hard
15:28:12 <ais523> of course, there's something sort-of weird about tar searching for tar as part of its configure
15:28:19 <ais523> but hey, there's autotools for you
15:28:37 <ais523> strangely, the autotools configuration here, at first sight, seems to be /correct/, which is bizarre for a GNU application
15:30:06 <ais523> hmm, this is strange, and really confusing; I do the standard autoreconf, configure, make, make install, and everything works perfectly the first time
15:30:13 <ais523> there is something wrong with the world
15:32:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders why GNU tar has an option to specify your favourite rsh implementation
15:33:27 <AnMaster> ais523, but what about large tar archives?
15:33:40 <ais523> /obviously/, if I'm going to add a new and crusty yet useful feature to tar, it should be GNU tar I add it to
15:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember an uncompressed tar archive where tar -tf took a lot of time
15:33:50 <ais523> because that's where you add crufty features
15:33:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so I guess there is no file index at the start
15:34:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that's a different problem, you can just control-C there
15:34:28 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but the no-tar-bomb option shouldn't need to read the archive twice.
15:34:42 <AnMaster> once for checking of tar bomb, once for actual expansion
15:34:57 <AnMaster> rather, be optimistic and if you detect a tar bomb midway, abort
15:35:13 <ais523> let's see, currently I think the ideal semantics would be "error out if trying to expand a tar file containing more than one file/directory in . when the current directory contains any files/directories but . and .."
15:35:14 <AnMaster> that way only one of the expanding dirs have been created
15:35:34 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant tar bomb in the sense of "drops loads of files into the current directory", that's what people normally mean
15:35:34 <fizzie> You can't depend on reading the stream twice anyway, I do tar-netcat-tar sometimes.
15:35:34 <AnMaster> ais523, basically that tar archive in question was larger than ram iirc
15:35:40 <ais523> rather than along the lines of zipfiles
15:35:50 <AnMaster> ais523, dropping all those files
15:36:32 <AnMaster> ais523, as fizzie said: "<fizzie> You can't depend on reading the stream twice anyway, I do tar-netcat-tar sometimes." and I dealt with tar files larger than ram recently
15:36:50 <ais523> this isn't meant to be protection against malicious tarfiles, rather protection against mistakes in creating tarballs
15:36:57 <ais523> and yes, I'd need to look into how the TOC works
15:37:10 <ais523> it should be noted that Emacs can write just the TOC of a tarfile without problems, so presumably it does come first
15:37:23 <ais523> people should read section 5 of the manual more often
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15:38:00 <ais523> hmm, seems to alternate between filenames and data
15:38:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, I just realised how to make that auto pano head be able to handle almost all exposure lengths and flash card speeds.
15:38:26 <ais523> so you'd have to abort at the second offending filename, and delete whatever files had been created in the meantime
15:38:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you guess if I say that I have lego light sensors (light level only)
15:38:57 <ais523> anyway, if you wanted to make a /malicious/ tarfile, you'd just make a normal one with a .bashrc file in as well (and counterparts for other common shells)
15:39:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well for that tar file it seemed to read the whole tar to be able to list everything in it
15:39:29 <AnMaster> unless tar -tf does more than just listing
15:39:59 <ais523> you can do tar -t very quickly on a /seekable/ file
15:40:06 <ais523> because each header lets you know how much data to skip
15:40:11 <ais523> if the file's nonseekable, though, you have to read the whole thing
15:40:13 <AnMaster> ais523, it was a 2.6 GB uncompressed tar file
15:40:33 <ais523> presumably tar isn't intelligent enough to seek over the uninteresting bits, but emacs is
15:40:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it contained some interesting files in it... Like .zip.xz unless I misremembered
15:41:02 <AnMaster> ais523, it was downloaded from Xilnix (sp? those who make FPGAs...)
15:41:12 <AnMaster> and well, I did want to check for tar bomb
15:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I wouldn't trust a company with doing it right
15:41:29 <ais523> yep, they certainly do make interesting tarballs
15:41:49 <AnMaster> ais523, but this tar bomb I ran into today was from sourceforge. And I didn't expect a tarbomb there...
15:42:38 <ais523> OpenCores is worse, many people just check tarballs into svn rather than checking in the directory tree
15:42:47 <ais523> thus making it almost useless for anything but backup-over-time
15:43:00 <AnMaster> don't they provide any guidelines for this?
15:43:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and I presume you also ran into Xilinx tarballs from that comment above?
15:44:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I was hoping to somehow extract timing data on the gates from that to use with ghdl
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15:46:48 <AnMaster> <ais523> thus making it almost useless for anything but backup-over-time
15:46:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> don't they provide any guidelines for this?
15:46:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, and I presume you also ran into Xilinx tarballs from that comment above?
15:46:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, I was hoping to somehow extract timing data on the gates from that to use with ghdl
15:47:12 <ais523> the last three, I missed
15:47:23 <ais523> yes, I have run into xilinx tarballs
15:47:46 <ais523> most notably, when they sent me some stuff in a tarball intended to run on a Windows system that didn't have tar
15:48:08 <ais523> I don't think they quite "get" Windows
15:48:14 <ais523> which is an unusual situation for a big company to be in
15:48:43 <AnMaster> and what are the chances to manage that timing data thing? I read somewhere about someone managing to do that from the downloads of some other manufacture...
15:49:22 <ais523> I have no idea, but my guess is that if something's a free download, it isn't going to help with it
15:51:57 <ais523> normally they charge for information that precise
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16:06:21 <fizzie> I was in a bus, going from work to home.
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16:09:55 <fizzie> It should've been automatic.
16:10:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway can you guess now?
16:10:03 <fizzie> Maybe my automatic thing is borken, wouldn't surprise me.
16:10:05 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, I just realised how to make that auto pano head be able to handle almost all exposure lengths and flash card speeds.
16:10:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, can you guess if I say that I have lego light sensors (light level only)
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16:10:29 <fizzie> I would guess some sort of "currently working" LED in the camera, at least mine has something that blinks as long as it is working. (And blanks the camera screen too, I think.)
16:11:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes there is a LED for compact flash card activity :)
16:11:36 <AnMaster> but yeah sure the monitor... well it would be kind of annoying to have sensors obscuring it. Plus there could be black stuff anyway
16:12:23 <fizzie> Right, the "this was what you got" preview might confuse it too. But there is the led.
16:12:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what is needed is simply: 1) press shutter and release (after suitable time, will have to figure such details out)... 2) wait until led turns on. 3) wait until it turns off again
16:13:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus for long exposures my camera does something funny when taking that "black frame" after to remove the heat noise or whatever from the CCD...
16:14:06 <AnMaster> so probably a bit more complex than that for the LED stuff
16:14:38 <AnMaster> also who knows, if it blinks. (it usually doesn't but it might be too fast for a human but still possible to measure with such a sensor)
16:18:10 <AnMaster> hm... I wonder what the best way is to adjust the camera position (wrt nodal point)... probably a lego engine the thing on some sort of "flat cogwheel" rail
16:19:41 <AnMaster> ah... "Technic Gear Rack 1 x 4"
16:19:49 <fizzie> Steal a stepper motor from a HD, for the ultimate in precise positioning.
16:20:59 <ais523> are they more or less accurate than those in CNC machines?
16:24:18 <fizzie> I have no real clue. Could be less. I don't think they rely on the usual boring stepper motors any more.
16:24:26 <fizzie> "The arm is moved using a voice coil actuator or in some older designs a stepper motor."
16:25:17 <fizzie> I have a habit of hyperbole, just downgrade all my statements a few notches in general.
16:28:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, how are they controlled btw?
16:29:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, as I *do* happen to have an old non-working HD in some box somewhere
16:29:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, so this sounds entirely possible if it is possible to control it from a RCX :D
16:29:34 <AnMaster> (and interface it with lego somehow)
16:29:41 <ais523> AnMaster: stepper motors have four input wires
16:29:53 <ais523> you need to control two of the wires at a time in a pattern
16:30:02 <ais523> each time round the pattern it moves four steps
16:30:09 <ais523> you can do the pattern in reverse to move in the other direction
16:30:22 <ais523> and if you need a half-step, you can do just B to be halfway between AB and BC, for instance
16:30:30 <AnMaster> ais523, does it have some turning limit? Or can it turn 360° forever?
16:31:07 <AnMaster> also what are typical voltages/currents of them?
16:31:24 <ais523> hmm, it was something around 9V last time I used one, can't remember the current
16:31:42 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if hard drive ones used lower voltages, though
16:32:17 <AnMaster> hm the RCX uses PWM to control the motor unless I misremember... might be hard to interface that... Oh wait I think it is done in software. Maybe
16:33:11 <AnMaster> ais523, for 4 wires I would need more outputs than the RCX has...
16:33:53 <AnMaster> (it has 3 PWM controlled motor outputs, where the PWM is done in software by the ROM iirc. I don't think it was the firmware that did it...)
16:34:50 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, why does it use 4 wires? That is just 4 states. Couldn't it be done with 2 wires?
16:35:08 <ais523> AnMaster: because it doesn't do calculation internally
16:35:29 <ais523> that's just the sequence you activate the electromagnets in
16:36:08 <ais523> pretty small, normally, you need loads for a full revolution
16:36:35 <AnMaster> ais523, so how fast is that done in a harddrive. I suspect an RCX couldn't drive it at full speed anyway...
16:36:50 <ais523> the faster you drive them, the less torque you get
16:36:54 <ais523> likewise, if you slow down, it's stronger
16:37:11 <ais523> but for something that's easy to turn anyway, like a harddrive that has already spun up, you can cycle through the steps really fast
16:37:34 <ais523> Wikipedia says 200 steps per revolution, that seems reasonable
16:37:51 <AnMaster> ais523, seems very few for a harddrive...
16:38:08 <ais523> presumably harddrives have more steps
16:38:10 <AnMaster> which would reduce accuracy...
16:38:25 <ais523> but it seems that by using more complicated patterns than just 0 and 1, you can get arbitrary fractions of a step
16:38:28 <ais523> which also makes sense
16:39:11 <AnMaster> ais523, as in +4V and +2V for the ones next to each other? Instead of same for both?
16:39:19 <ais523> yep, that sort of thing
16:41:42 <fizzie> A hard-drive stepper motor controls the "lateral" position of the read-head on the disk, it doesn't rotate the disk itself.
16:42:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes I do realise that easily...
16:42:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would however be used to seek
16:42:28 <AnMaster> and seeks should be fast and precise
16:42:36 <ais523> fizzie: what sort of motor rotates the disk? just a regular one?
16:42:50 <fizzie> Just a regular one; I don't know what they use for decoding the current angle of the disk.
16:43:03 <ais523> probably the read head itself
16:43:12 <ais523> you could determine where you were from what you were reading
16:43:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume there is some sort of flywheel or such on the spinning disk to make it rotate at a stable speed?
16:44:40 <fizzie> I'm no HD engineer either. Not sure how stable it needs to be, though I guess compensating for some wibble there would presumably make the reading circuitry somewhat more complicated.
16:45:39 <fizzie> Given how small the single storage regions are nowadays, I'm sure it's not completely simple.
16:45:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus (desktop) harddrives at least tend to be rather heavy
16:46:41 <fizzie> The platters contribute a reasonable fraction of the weight, at least comparing a 2-platter terabyte disk with a 4-platter 2-terabyte disk that otherwise share identical hardware.
16:46:42 <AnMaster> I mean, as far as I remember my current SATA disk is about the same weight as the larger dvd drive
16:47:16 <AnMaster> anyway laptop drives can't be very heavy presumably
16:47:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, larger platters in one? Or different packing density?
16:48:00 <AnMaster> and if so, why make both variants
16:48:49 <fizzie> Given that they want to optimize the capacity, I'd guess they use the same ("as much as we can cram in there with our tech") or at least similar packing density in all disks.
16:50:02 <fizzie> Anyway, adding weight means more energy wasted in keeping all that weight rotating, so if you want to optimize power usage too, you'd want to make things lighter. (Of course it's relatively easy to keep all that mass spinning when you've spun it up in the first place, but there's still friction.)
16:50:32 <fizzie> At least I've seen the weight argument in some drive-power-usage-analysis-review thing.
16:51:00 <AnMaster> oh wait... 2 terrabytes for the second
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16:51:08 <AnMaster> misread it as both being 1 terrabyte
16:52:10 <fizzie> Oh. Yes, they commonly put half a terabyte per (3.5" HD) platter nowadays. Or did a while ago; I'm sure someone's done more than that already.
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17:01:06 <fizzie> Twungot says: "About NetHack: the other hand, is necessary for a charm of powerful trouble, though they are the fairest in the middle of her spear, ..."
17:02:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, still done by a perl script instead of befunge98 program?
17:02:25 <ais523> I like the concept of a charm of powerful trouble
17:03:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, where are the parts from?
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17:04:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Unfortunately, yes. And before you ask, I also haven't had any jitfunge time lately, and won't in a month or so. (Still a week of exams and then two weeks of Europe.)
17:04:51 <AnMaster> I have a few weeks ahead at university still
17:06:54 <fizzie> "middle of her [Aegis]" from the end of the Medusa desc.
17:07:28 <fizzie> "her spear" from shrieker.
17:08:12 <Deewiant> I've started that subset-of-Befunge static compiler
17:08:25 <fizzie> "fairest in" from "Who is the fairest in the land?", a Snow White quote.
17:08:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: You did notice my one, right?-)
17:09:59 <fizzie> It compiles and runs fungot, to some extent. Babbling probably won't work, and persistence had some issues, but I did get it to come here on-channel.
17:10:29 <Deewiant> When was this? Does it exist somewhere?
17:10:50 <Deewiant> Or did you just hack jitfunge a bit
17:11:15 <fizzie> Hrm, I'll have to grep for that. And no, it's almost completely separate from jitfunge.
17:11:31 <fizzie> It's in Java, for example. :p
17:11:55 <fizzie> LLVM assembly, I think.
17:12:39 <Deewiant> Mine is in Haskell and uses the LLVM bindings so it's thrice as awesome
17:12:48 <fizzie> Yes, well, I wasn't so taken by LLVM's IRBuilder, or the whole mess of classes there.
17:13:11 <Deewiant> Just use the C API if you find the C++ to be too much of a mess
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17:15:05 <fizzie> Possibly I should've. Instead I ended up with a Java reimplementation of the type system thing, except a lot smaller, of course.
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17:15:35 <fizzie> Anyway, it was more of a proof-of-concept thing; I think I did it in less than a week. And possibly I'll use it to run fungot permanently at some point.
17:15:53 <Deewiant> Which I've thus far done in less than a couple of hours
17:15:56 <fizzie> Nah, it's not invented here. :p
17:16:04 <Deewiant> And can do a hello-world but not much more
17:16:32 <oerjan> the fizzie who says NIH
17:18:14 <fizzie> How's your code generation? Completely mechanistic translation of the Befunge-98 code, trusting LLVM to fold all stack manipulation away; a "intermediate stack operands turn into values, LLVM does the rest" thing; or something else?
17:19:10 <Deewiant> I took CCBI's stack, translated it to C (because I didn't think it through properly; that was pointless but oh well), and emit calls to it for stack manipulation
17:19:30 <Deewiant> No "stack overflow" errors for me :-P
17:19:57 <fizzie> Oh, okay. I do a reasonable amount of "from stack to a register thing" translation, for no particular reason.
17:20:15 <Deewiant> LLVM does optimize it well enough
17:20:36 <fizzie> Probably. For some reason silly-looking code, even temporary such, irritates me.
17:21:19 <Deewiant> And how'd you do Funge-Space in your thing
17:21:48 <fizzie> Something like &&+. involving "push to stack, push to stack, pop, pop, sum, push to stack, pop, print" is silly to me.
17:22:41 <Deewiant> Meh; at least it's easy to debug
17:23:10 <Deewiant> I also tend to emit a bunch of basic blocks which do nothing but br to another
17:23:23 <fizzie> I cull those out, for the same reason.
17:23:43 <Deewiant> I don't see much point in duplicating LLVM functionality
17:23:54 <fizzie> Yes, well, I guess it's a matter of taste.
17:23:56 <Deewiant> It's just more LOC for no gain
17:24:20 <fizzie> I don't see much "point" in the whole endeavour, and I did it mostly for playing-around reasons, as well as the irrational irritation -reasons.
17:24:22 <Deewiant> If you want "better looking" code, compile with -O. The problem is that while it removes silliness it can also introduce complexity :-P
17:25:46 <Deewiant> Anyway, you've yet to tell me what you did about Funge-Space
17:26:45 <fizzie> Oh, I just took jitfunge's hash-based fungespace for that; at least there's a bit of reuse. And I have a static funge-space box the size of the progarm source code, since I'll need that data anyway for g'ing the right "static data" in.
17:27:57 <Deewiant> So essentially what cfunge does; one static box + hash table
17:29:42 <Deewiant> How far does it get in Mycology?
17:30:28 <fizzie> Still on the stack-to-register translation; I just don't completely trust LLVM to remove all the stack underflow tests when inlining the stack ops. I guess it's quite probable it does just fine, I just feel like since I know more about the case I'm code-generating in than LLVM does, I might as well do sensible things from the get-go.
17:30:43 <fizzie> I'm not sure I've tested.
17:30:57 <fizzie> I'll try to check when I have time; now I really need to prepare some food.
17:31:04 <fizzie> I should've been doing that for the last half an hour already.
17:31:23 <Deewiant> Doing some higher-level optimization is not wrong, of course
17:32:15 <Deewiant> I plan to do some early folding already at the parsing stage, to allow handling only one direction of a branch
17:32:42 <Deewiant> (Although probably the only kind of code that does that is self-modifying anyway)
17:33:14 <fizzie> I use _|s somewhat often as a combination of one of v<>^ and a $, when trying to size-optimize things.
17:33:25 <fizzie> I think I and mooz used to call those things "discard-ifs", even.
17:34:14 <fizzie> There's even one case in fungot, I believe. Or I might be confusing that with a single case of [ or ], which I'm not in the habit of using, due to some Befunge93 roots.
17:34:57 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
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17:35:12 <Deewiant> What is it with you and your hostname?
17:35:30 -!- fungot has joined.
17:36:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: I have left one of freenode's servers with an IPv6 entry in my bouncer configuration, and my IPv6 reverse-DNS setup is broken, and I always forget it some three seconds after doing this jumpery.
17:36:23 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:36:38 <fizzie> (This was one roundabout way of locating that URL.)
17:37:12 <fizzie> There on line 109 is a case of using a _ instead of $<.
17:37:20 <fizzie> It's even documented; it says "d-if" right next to it.
17:37:28 <fizzie> Granted, "d-if" might not mean much to most.
17:38:20 <Deewiant> Too bad the _ is also used as a real if :-P
17:38:41 <fizzie> Not that particular _, it goes always to the left.
17:39:17 <Deewiant> That one's not compiler-obvious even if it does
17:39:34 <fizzie> Yes, I believe it does. But it's not very clear to a compiler.
17:39:47 <Deewiant> It uses a fingerprint instruction so it's practically invisible
17:40:03 <fizzie> In general, I use a discard-if after a loop that does ":|" style stuff has terminated, and I need to get rid of the known-zero below.
17:40:12 <fizzie> That's not compiler-obvious, but I guess it's compiler-knowable.
17:40:54 <Deewiant> That's the kind of thing I leave to LLVM :-P
17:48:01 <fizzie> Uh, there's a "todo" comment for it.
17:49:37 <fizzie> I was thinking of handling it pretty minimally. I'm a bit wary on doing things during parsing, since you can then hit the same thing with a different sort of stack context, and then you'll need to reconsider the earlier bits. (Or do code duplication and consider the new case a different thing, which I guess might be more reasonable.)
17:50:30 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what you mean by a different sort of stack context
17:51:44 <fizzie> Well... if there's something like "1>1x", I can handle that x pretty easily when parsing; but currently my strategy is that if I see a cell that's been gone through with the same delta, I can always just generate a branch there. Here if someone hits the > with a 2 on the stack, it changes the whole meaning of the "1x" bit, assuming "whole meaning" has been "change delta to (1,1).
17:52:43 <Deewiant> Recommendation: check the delta as it would be /after/ the instruction, not before
17:53:46 <fizzie> I don't see how that help. The bit of code that hits the > hits the "1x" part with exactly the same delta, it's just the context that differs; yet I need to reanalyze it because the x will go a different way. Currently I'd just say "okay, this just jumps to the 1 and I can stop parsing here".
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17:57:14 <fizzie> I guess it's not a terrible problem, I just like the current way that when I see a (position, delta) that's already been seen before, I can be sure that it can't lead to anything new.
17:57:22 <fizzie> Anyway, I need to eat that food I made now, away for a while.
17:58:12 <Deewiant> If you make basic-block type things like I do you can just add a check for if the terminator is an x
18:05:53 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Anyway, it was more of a proof-of-concept thing; I think I did it in less than a week. And possibly I'll use it to run fungot permanently at some point. <-- fungot is no fun without self modification
18:05:54 <fungot> AnMaster: haven't tried the code? or are you still dead? :)
18:06:18 <Deewiant> It doesn't self-modify, does it?
18:06:23 <oerjan> even fungot is being snarky these days
18:06:24 <fungot> oerjan: what was that forth called you where talking about the binary level, then.
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18:28:31 <fizzie> It doesn't, no. And I still think it's at least a bit fun.
18:30:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, you could test for x-termination; though if you want to determine if an "if" always goes to a particular direction, you'd then still need to break a basic block there, and potentially re-examine all basic blocks you have that terminate into an if that's been short-cutted, if you encounter that block from some other way.
18:32:06 <Deewiant> I don't get it, gimme an example
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18:33:47 <fizzie> Uh, well... if you have a 1>[...lots of code with no final stack effect...]| you can (on the first parse through it) deduce that the | at the end always goes up, but when you re-enter that block by hitting the > from some other place, you'll need to notice that "hey, this means I have a new potential branch to parse".
18:33:59 <fizzie> Granted, this isn't a big hassle if you build those basic blocks while parsing.
18:34:15 <Deewiant> I'm not planning on doing that kind of optimization myself across basic blocks
18:34:42 <Deewiant> As far as I'm concerned, when I hit a >, I don't know what's on the stack any more.
18:35:07 <fizzie> Okay, if you do it like that, then it will be easier. But it's a bit of a shame that simple direction-modification has that sort of an effect.
18:35:45 <Deewiant> No it's not, because LLVM can compute the dominator tree and do the partial redundancy elimination and whatnot that's required to figure it out later on :-P
18:36:34 <Deewiant> I'm not very concerned about the unoptimized code quality
18:37:15 <fizzie> My parser is a two-stage thing, where I first build a graph that contains a "basic block" for each single cell, then I merge those into actual basic blocks. So it's not so easy to look at a single node and know that it will be terminated by an 'x' in the end. I could've done it so that it built real blocks, and then split those when necessary, of course. Or, like you apparently do, make every <>v^ start a new block?
18:38:16 <Deewiant> And as a bit of a hack, a new block at (0,0) so that code that infinite-loops on the first line doesn't cause the parser to infinite-loop
18:39:08 <fizzie> I had earlier some sort of overly complicated static-analysis incomplete Funge thing (I think the earlier fungot graphs were from that) which tried to do that sort of analysis; it kept track of known stack cells, and even "known to be nonzero but not exactly what" cells, and "unknown but there's still something known below it" cells, and kept a record of that sort of "stack context" at each point, and when I encountered some code from a new direction, tried to
18:39:08 <fizzie> merge those stacks by keeping the "compatible" information there.
18:39:08 <fungot> fizzie: i guess it's not as much as the name might be too complicated i think
18:39:24 <fizzie> It started to become a bit overcomplicated at some point.
18:39:33 <fizzie> Can't rely on LLVM for that sort of use, unfortunately.
18:40:18 <Deewiant> Why not? That's exactly what it tries to figure out when optimizing away loads and phis
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18:40:44 <fizzie> I mean, if your desired end result is human-readable graphs that still contain recognizable Befunge code, only the code flow part represented by a graph.
18:40:48 <fizzie> Certainly if you want executable code...
18:42:31 <fizzie> "git log" says I started on a Thursday and stopped the same week's Sunday, so you could call that compiler a bit of a small-scale experiment.
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18:44:33 <zzo38> I cannot figure out the short solution in dc
18:44:47 <zzo38> I did 17 bytes long
18:45:38 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not you care, but: I have upgraded 888ASM, now it supports macros and a few other things
18:48:00 <zzo38> I have never won at any anarchy golf problem that I invented. But I have won at some other ones
18:54:34 <zzo38> Do you go to anime convention this year?
18:58:07 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/iWKX
18:58:30 <pikhq> This is what happens when you take Internet from me. I produce silly, not-needed code.
18:58:47 <pikhq> ... That has a bug I just noticed.
18:59:47 <pikhq> Now, minus the obvious bug: http://sprunge.us/ahDN
19:01:49 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what this program is for?
19:02:40 <pikhq> It compiles Brainfuck to 386 assembly.
19:03:13 <zzo38> OK. I suppose it is obvious now
19:05:14 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:06:12 <pikhq> The data pointer is in ecx so that I have to do 0 work to make it the argument for the system calls, and the code pointer is in esp so I don't have to move it anywhere when making system calls.
19:07:19 <zzo38> The other assembler is 888ASM. It doesn't yet have full support for protected mode commands yet
19:09:28 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:13:28 <zzo38> Have you ever written a assembler?
19:16:11 <pikhq> Never felt like it is all.
19:17:13 <zzo38> Do you like the one I wrote, did you think is good?
19:17:30 <pikhq> Dunno, not looked at it much.
19:18:15 <zzo38> sprunge seems the good pastebin
19:18:30 <zzo38> I looked at the instructions
19:18:59 <zzo38> The only thing is I don't have curl installed
19:19:03 -!- uorygl has joined.
19:21:44 <zzo38> Perhaps if I write GNU/Linux distribution, I might include a shell-script for "sprunge" in the EXTRA packages set.
19:22:10 <pikhq> How can you not have curl?
19:22:23 <pikhq> It's freaking curl!
19:22:41 <zzo38> I probably should install curl
19:22:43 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/888ASM/888asm.c
19:24:27 <zzo38> Now perhaps you can see if the improvements to 888ASM is any good
19:28:05 <fizzie> pikhq: Do you have some reliable information on how much you're allowed to play games with the stack pointer? I was considering that for the Befunge stack in an earlier jitfunge, and I think in that Scheme compiler, but got sidetracked while hunting for documentation. What little I did find is that you could perhaps make it signal-safe with sigaltstack stuff, but beyond that I'm not so sure. X86-64 ABI (my target) for example has that "red zone" thing... w.r.t.
19:28:05 <fizzie> syscalls it seemed reasonably safe on Linux, for both interrupts and the SYSCALL way, but no-one was exactly claiming so.
19:29:02 <Deewiant> Using the system stack is lame, it limits the size too much
19:29:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sure, but using the ESP/RSP register to point at wherever you want doesn't.
19:29:54 <Deewiant> Right, I just got that from reading "stack" and "jitfunge" :-P
19:30:09 <fizzie> You should've also read the "playing games" part. :p
19:31:10 <pikhq> fizzie: The esp is a general purpose register.
19:31:58 <pikhq> It just happens to contain a pointer to a stack under pretty much every ABI, and "call" and "ret" manipulate aforementioned stack.
19:32:38 <pikhq> So, there's a *lot* of games you can play with that.
19:32:40 <fizzie> That doesn't mean the syscall interface couldn't require you to have a "nice" stack.
19:33:08 <Deewiant> "Pretty much every ABI" of which syscall may or may not be one
19:33:16 <pikhq> The kernel entry point *by necessity* starts by saving all registers and using its own stack.
19:33:48 <fizzie> And why would that be a necessity? You already need to prepare registers for the syscall parameters.
19:34:35 <pikhq> There's the floating point registers, syscall parameters that aren't being used, the base pointer, the stack pointer, the SSE registers, and the MMX registers.
19:35:29 <pikhq> Pretty much every kernel, upon being entered, just saves all the registers. And it almost certainly must use its own stack.
19:37:47 <pikhq> The kernel damned well does not want to assume correctness of anything that it gets passed by userspace.
19:38:24 <pikhq> If it used the process's stack, you could, for instance, set it up so the kernel will return to a rootkit.
19:38:32 <Deewiant> So you can exploit the fact that you're considered malicious :-P
19:38:42 <fizzie> Can't say I've inspected the internals of so many kernels I'd feel comfortable relying on that; and I found it pretty hard to find good-looking documentation on Linux. I did look at the sources, and it certainly seemed to be pretty conservative like that, but still.
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19:39:35 <pikhq> fizzie: Linux ABI in particular saves all registers upon entry, even the ones that are just syscall parameters.
19:40:03 <fizzie> Yes, well, do you happen to have handy a reference work for this?
19:40:15 <pikhq> Let's find the entry in /usr/src/linux
19:41:13 <fizzie> If you mean the code, I think it's arch/x86/kernel/entry_{32,64}.S; but I'd prefer a statement of intent instead of reading the particulars for each architecture that sounds interesting.
19:41:46 <fizzie> (It's also rather macro-heavy code.)
19:42:14 <fizzie> I vaguely recall looking at Documentation/, but nothing immediately sprang up. I don't think I used a lot of time for this, though.
19:44:31 <fizzie> (The register setup is fortunately very cleanly explained in the comment above ENTRY(system_call), that was a nice touch.)
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19:54:03 <fizzie> Anyway, sure, it does "start" with
19:54:04 <fizzie> movq %rsp,PER_CPU_VAR(old_rsp)
19:54:04 <fizzie> movq PER_CPU_VAR(kernel_stack),%rsp
19:54:04 <fizzie> ... after some less clean stuff, but the comment also says "if we had a free scratch register we could save the RSP into the stack frame and report it properly in ps. Unfortunately we haven't", which I might even think would refer to cobblering something in the userspace's stack frame.
19:56:43 <AnMaster> does anyone here have any experience with building cross compilers?
19:57:04 <AnMaster> debian used to provide a package for it during woody. but hasn't since
19:57:06 <Deewiant> Cross compilers are not very different from any other kind of compilers
19:57:21 <Deewiant> Oh, you meant "building" as in "compiling"
19:57:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well... I need to use outdated binutils and gcc versions for the thing to even support this arch...
19:57:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, getting a working toolchain
19:57:45 <AnMaster> from a bunch of gcc/binutils tarballs
19:58:12 <fizzie> I've used that tool for it. Or two tools, in fact. I just can't ever remember the names.
19:58:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm stuck at binutils 2.16.1 and gcc 3.4.6 as the last versions supporting this arch
19:58:54 <AnMaster> and I have no idea where to start with building a cross toolchain
19:59:19 <AnMaster> documentation is very bad and bitrot ensures that I'm very unlikely to find anyone to update it
19:59:44 <AnMaster> the entire community on this arch is half-404 nowdays
20:00:26 <AnMaster> upstream vendor? No longer has any info on this product at all...
20:00:27 <fizzie> I think I used http://www.kegel.com/crosstool/ several years ago, but it might be somewhat out of date, and probably won't cover your particular situation out-of-the-box.
20:01:22 <AnMaster> atm I'm trying to figure out target triplet
20:01:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:01:36 <fizzie> And then there's buildroot, which is mainly interesting if you want a uClibc-based toolchain for a Linux system, but could do some other useful things too.
20:01:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is either h8300-hitachi-hms or h8300-hitachi-coff
20:01:53 <AnMaster> there is some contradiction on it
20:02:01 <AnMaster> ah didn't ais523 mess with cross compiling before?
20:02:15 <ais523> I have an ARM toolchain on here right now
20:02:21 <ais523> and ofc gcc-bf is a crosscompiler
20:02:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the basic steps required in setting up a cross toolchain from a binutils and gcc source tarball
20:02:30 <ais523> because it would be ridiculous to make it native
20:02:42 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I need to use old versions... since the arch is no longer supported
20:02:47 <ais523> let's see, I've never actually set up a cross /toolchain/ by hand before, just the individual compiler
20:03:02 <ais523> the ARM toolchain was generated via a rather complicated makefile
20:03:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I need linked and C compiler at least.
20:03:05 <ais523> which had wget commands in it
20:03:15 <AnMaster> C++ might be needed later on (ugh)
20:03:23 <ais523> for the compiler, if it's gcc, you just need a weird set of configure options
20:03:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I need to use binutils 2.16.1 and gcc 3.4.6. Last versions supporting h8300-hitachi-hms
20:04:00 <AnMaster> and I need to apply a bunch of patches
20:04:31 <ais523> you are aware that gcc's build system is insane, right?
20:04:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and I do know how to handle it for "normal" native builds
20:04:50 <AnMaster> but that is out of question here
20:05:06 <AnMaster> ais523, h8300-hitachi-hms is the triplet for the RCX you see
20:05:28 <ais523> anyway, in theory the only change you have to make is to give configure options like this: --build=i686-linux-gnu --host=i686-linux-gnu --target=h8300-hitachi-hms
20:05:41 <AnMaster> half of the relevant pages are 404 or "see relevant links for <not very relevant part of domain name>" nowdays...
20:06:03 <ais523> you need to give all three when doing any sort of cross-compilation, whether you're crosscompiling gcc or straightcompiling a crosscompiler or even crosscompiling a crosscompiler
20:06:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have any libc for this btw... As in, the OS I will cross compile will provide a very stripped down set of header files
20:06:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well why? I already get stdlib.h and a few more...
20:06:52 <ais523> which implements the whole libc in terms of about 15 system calls, which you need to give by hand if the OS doesn't do them itself
20:06:58 <AnMaster> it isn't like there is any console IO on it
20:07:07 <ais523> well, it depends on how much libc you need
20:07:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm very limited in RAM on the RCX...
20:07:14 <ais523> does it have sprintf, for instance? and do you need it?
20:07:21 <AnMaster> ais523, no I don't need that :P
20:07:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't need any string handling at all in fact
20:07:47 <pikhq> So, what *do* you need?
20:07:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, floating point emulation, which is provided.
20:08:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, and bare access to the hardware
20:08:25 <AnMaster> there is no MMU or such on this thing after all
20:08:43 <AnMaster> (or 8-bit perhaps... it is somewhat unclear...)
20:09:18 <AnMaster> ais523, what about gcc prefix and such for a cross toolchain?
20:09:40 <ais523> it tries to find the binutils by executable name
20:09:58 <ais523> as in, it'll look for h8300-hitachi-hms-ld for the linker
20:10:03 <ais523> and complain if it can't find it
20:10:10 <AnMaster> ais523, lets assume I want to put it in /home/local/lego... My experience of gcc seems to show it takes lot of effort to make gcc use rpath or such... I have a stored command line for the make call for llvm gcc somewhere iirc...
20:10:36 <ais523> gcc mostly hardcodes configure info into the resulting executable
20:10:46 <ais523> and then does insane stuff with collect2
20:11:09 <ais523> which you may be able to stub out for something like bf-gcc, but which is needed if you want to do C++
20:11:16 <AnMaster> well I think some of this is from bootstrapping...
20:11:19 <ais523> gcc also provides an alternative method
20:11:28 <ais523> (and ofc, cross-compilers aren't bootstrapped)
20:11:29 <AnMaster> ais523, there is the risk I will need to do C++.... as much as it pains me
20:11:54 <ais523> the alternative method for getting C++ constructors working, though, I sort-of understand the principle of it but not how it works in practice or how to get gcc to do it
20:12:13 <AnMaster> oh yeah a bash script generating the gcc build commands...
20:12:14 <AnMaster> make LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1,--hash-style=gnu,-rpath,${BASEDIR}/lib" LDFLAGS_FOR_TARGET="-Wl,-O1,--hash-style=gnu,-rpath,${BASEDIR}/lib" BOOT_LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1,-rpath,${BASEDIR}/lib"
20:12:21 <AnMaster> is what the line from the heredoc looks like
20:12:29 <AnMaster> because the relevant configure flags aren't used
20:13:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I will be doing freestanding development anyway
20:13:04 <ais523> incidentally, the documentation for the way gcc's build system works is a FIXME
20:13:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume I should compile binutils first?
20:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, how does one go about that?
20:13:52 <ais523> I think you compile them simultaneously, somehow
20:14:05 <ais523> there's something about the build system for one involving the other
20:14:23 <AnMaster> ais523, eh... where is this documented?
20:14:41 <ais523> I'm trying to find where it's documented
20:14:51 <ais523> binutils-doc is a promisingly /named/ package, at least
20:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not on a debian system
20:15:24 <ais523> yep, but I can read it and tell you what it says
20:15:36 <AnMaster> right, or point me to upstream
20:15:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I just thought you knew how since you had been messing with it
20:16:03 <ais523> I wrote them myself for gcc-bf
20:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, some of the docs relating to the stuff I want to use this for says stuff like "this need at least gcc 2.95, egcs will not work"
20:17:04 <AnMaster> really brings you back a lot of years
20:18:28 <AnMaster> ais523, oh it said "you'll have to build and compile gcc 2.95 instead of the older egcs" to be specific
20:18:50 <ais523> $ ls -1 /usr/src/binutils/patches/ | wc -l
20:19:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I need very very specific patches myself here so...
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20:20:17 <ais523> haven't seen you around for a while
20:20:43 <AnMaster> ais523, btw this cross compiler had a package back in either woody or the version before woody. I haven't been able to find out which. It no longer has such a package though...
20:20:52 <impomatic> I've been here a few times recently :)
20:21:03 <AnMaster> ais523, which one was debian 2.x?
20:21:36 <AnMaster> ah seems to have been pre-woody
20:21:37 <ais523> impomatic: yep, but I haven't been here all the time
20:21:41 <ais523> we must have kept missing each other
20:21:46 <ais523> either that, or I wasn't paying attention
20:21:58 <impomatic> I didn't say anything worth paying attention to!
20:22:02 <ais523> AnMaster: what were its dependencies like?
20:22:41 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I haven't been able to find package, just mention on web.archive.org that such a package existed on that debian version
20:23:13 <AnMaster> ais523, and it is supposed to work with a newer gcc. I don't think it is feasible to compile gcc 2.x without bootstrapping nowdays
20:23:23 <AnMaster> while I'm pretty sure 3.x isn't too bad
20:23:48 <ais523> earlier gccs combined just fine on the compilers of the day; modern compilers are more standards-compliant and so should have an easier time
20:24:03 <fizzie> You could poke at the crosstools scripts, I think they were pretty comprehensible.
20:24:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I need to figure out how on earth you build binutils for h8300-hitachi-hms. And gcc
20:24:32 <AnMaster> all I want for now is binutils and gcc. I don't care about newlib, g++ or anything like that for now
20:24:51 <fizzie> <fizzie> I think I used http://www.kegel.com/crosstool/ several years ago, but it might be somewhat out of date, and probably won't cover your particular situation out-of-the-box.
20:25:27 <fizzie> The "Links" section in the crosstool howto might be useful too.
20:25:37 <impomatic> Does anyone know the difference between the different editions of Programming Pearls?
20:27:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: As for the second suggestion (buildroot), it does build an embedded-linux toolchain, but if it happens to work (a big if), you can mostly just yoink the GCC out of it and use it for freestanding compiling with the usual -nostdlibs and perhaps other flags. You might run into problems in that it really wants to build a C library too.
20:27:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it won't. This is not ELF
20:27:58 <AnMaster> this is coff. And definitely not linux in any way. No MMU, < 32 bits and so on
20:28:46 <fizzie> The ELFness doesn't matter; it's not like Linux's somehow restricted to ELF binaries. And in any case, it doesn't matter that you can't actually build the linux parts for it, the cross-toolchain parts might still work. Still, it's a bit of an abuse.
20:29:40 <fizzie> To be honest, I think the GCC build process sort of expects to have some sort of C library for your target too. I'm not sure why, and how badly; at least the existing cross-compiler-compilation instructions tend to assume so.
20:30:07 <AnMaster> ah found something maybe useful here...
20:30:16 <AnMaster> newlib seems to feature... which is confusing
20:31:11 <AnMaster> oh wait " You may also want to download newlib, though it's not required for BrickOS."
20:32:14 <AnMaster> and this guide, while not targeting C in the end, (but some language called cyclone) seems to at least discuss a recent gcc version
20:32:27 <fizzie> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Building_Cross_Toolchains_with_gcc is also there, I remember seeing it before when googling, but it's far from comprehensive or conclusive or other c-words.
20:32:56 <fizzie> You might even call it completely content-free.
20:33:01 <ais523> AnMaster: buildroot's what I used for the arm-linux toolchain, but it was massively complex and confusing
20:33:08 <ais523> I don't really understand how it worked
20:33:25 <oerjan> fizzie: well at least it has one c-word then
20:33:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I have high hopes for http://www.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/research/BrickOS-Cyclone/INSTALL.html
20:33:28 <fizzie> There are a couple of links, anyhow.
20:34:11 <fizzie> A separate cross-binutils is generally easy to compile, though -- possibly because the build system is not terrible? But if you want C and not just an assembler...
20:34:57 <AnMaster> ais523, at least these instructions doesn't a) discuss cygwin b) refer to outdated, no longer existing debian packages as the only described way of getting the toolchain
20:35:16 <fizzie> ais523: Buildroot tries to be very automatic; I built something with it, too, and I don't have any clue what happened, except that there was a faint smell of ozone at the end.
20:35:21 <AnMaster> <oerjan> fizzie: well at least it has one c-word then <-- which one?
20:35:29 <fizzie> "content-free", I think.
20:36:47 <AnMaster> oh btw I saw some wonderful build system yesterday. Custom makefiles broken at make -j2, oh and looked for a specific file in /usr/local/include and another one in /home/<developer's user name presumably>/somepath
20:37:21 <AnMaster> sad thing is that the actual software is nice and well documented in general (not the code though, many files with no comments at all)
20:40:15 <pikhq> I'm going to presume he knows absolutely nothing about how to do makefiles.
20:41:35 <AnMaster> <ais523> anyway, in theory the only change you have to make is to give configure options like this: --build=i686-linux-gnu --host=i686-linux-gnu --target=h8300-hitachi-hms
20:41:45 <AnMaster> ais523, how do I figure out the native triplet
20:41:54 <AnMaster> there is some confusion for x86_64 linux
20:42:08 <AnMaster> x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu vs. x86_64-gnu-linux-gnu
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20:42:18 <AnMaster> both are seen, so it is unclear which to use
20:42:21 <ais523> let me check, I'm pretty sure there's a simple way
20:45:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is that a quadraplet on my desktop?
20:45:36 <ais523> it's a triplet no matter /how/ many parts it is
20:45:41 <ais523> along the same lines as an ETLA
20:45:54 <ais523> extended three-letter acronym
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20:46:25 <AnMaster> so... lets see.. ah this gcc is so old it uses PREFIX/man instead of PREFIX/share/man
20:46:34 <AnMaster> even though that was only fixed quite recently
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20:49:07 <AnMaster> --x-includes=DIR X include files are in DIR
20:49:07 <AnMaster> --x-libraries=DIR X library files are in DIR
20:49:31 <ais523> I can't tell if it's using X as a variable there, or referring to X the windowing system
20:50:50 <AnMaster> ais523, so does this look reasonable to you (yeah it seems you should co-build indeed...):
20:50:52 <AnMaster> ../gcc-3.4.6/configure --prefix=/home/arvid/local/lego --infodir=/home/arvid/local/lego/share/info --mandir=/home/arvid/local/lego/share/man --enable-languages=c --target=h8300-hitachi-hms --build=x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu --host=x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu
20:51:55 <AnMaster> now lets hope it doesn't complain about no newlib (haven't been able to find right version of newlib, and I don't need it for the stuff I'm doing it seems)
20:53:09 <fizzie> It working just like that sounds unlikely.
20:53:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, I followed http://www.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/research/BrickOS-Cyclone/INSTALL.html basically
20:53:55 <fizzie> Yes, but where would we be if you could just follow instructions and have stuff work?
20:53:56 <AnMaster> anyway it is doing the second runs of configure, that is after you type make
20:54:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, believe me if I had been able to locate those instructions earlier I wouldn't have asked here....
20:54:30 <ais523> fizzie: that happened when I compiled tar from source earlier today, it shocked me
20:54:43 <AnMaster> checking assembler for .balign and .p2align... /home/arvid/src/lego/brickOS/toolchain/gcc-3.4.6/gcc/configure: line 10246: test: -ge: unary operator expected
20:54:44 <AnMaster> checking assembler for .p2align with maximum skip... /home/arvid/src/lego/brickOS/toolchain/gcc-3.4.6/gcc/configure: line 10284: test: -ge: unary operator expected
20:54:44 <AnMaster> checking assembler for working .subsection -1... no
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20:54:46 <AnMaster> checking assembler for .weak... /home/arvid/src/lego/brickOS/toolchain/gcc-3.4.6/gcc/configure: line 10370: test: -ge: unary operator expected
20:55:23 <AnMaster> and my /bin/sh is bash... so no idea
20:55:35 <fizzie> An empty something there, I'd guess.
20:55:45 <AnMaster> yeah... but that looks quite bad though
20:55:51 <AnMaster> pretty sure .p2algin does work...
20:56:01 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/lego/brickOS/toolchain/build-h8300/bfd/../../gcc-3.4.6/bfd/cache.c:440: undefined reference to `unlink_if_ordinary'
20:58:15 <ais523> AnMaster: which assembler is this?
20:58:45 <AnMaster> gcc -W -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -g -O2 -o size size.o bucomm.o version.o filemode.o ../bfd/.libs/libbfd.a ../libiberty/libiberty.a
20:58:45 <AnMaster> bucomm.o: In function `make_tempname':
20:58:45 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/lego/brickOS/toolchain/build-h8300/binutils/../../gcc-3.4.6/binutils/bucomm.c:425: warning: the use of `mktemp' is dangerous, better use `mkstemp'
20:58:45 <AnMaster> ../bfd/.libs/libbfd.a(cache.o): In function `bfd_open_file':
20:58:46 * ais523 wonders which solution for cross-compiles is neater; rewriting half of configure.in by hand, or calling configure.ac-generated configures recursively
20:58:51 <ais523> they're the gcc and ick solutions, respectively
20:59:04 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure the ick solution is the best one there to make it work with autotools
20:59:24 <AnMaster> ais523, google indicates it is related to mixing versions of libiberty
20:59:52 <ais523> hmm, I can believe that
20:59:59 <ais523> link a static libiberty.a and use that?
21:00:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well it tries to link the one it built it seems
21:00:28 <AnMaster> why it is using a version that lacks that I don't know
21:00:36 <ais523> then how are you mixing versions?
21:01:44 <AnMaster> ah missed the step about rm -rf libiberty from gcc and ln -s binutils versions
21:01:51 <AnMaster> grep indicates that the binutils one has it
21:02:25 <AnMaster> ais523, at least gcc 3.x doesn't take quite as long to compile :D
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21:06:47 <AnMaster> ais523, the lines I get those "quote issue" warnings from are like:
21:06:54 <AnMaster> #define HAVE_AS_GOTOFF_IN_DATA `if test $gcc_cv_as_ix86_gotoff_in_data = yes; then echo 1; else echo 0; fi`
21:12:02 <AnMaster> if test $gcc_cv_gas_vers -ge `expr \( \( 2 \* 1000 \) + 6 \) \* 1000 + 0`
21:12:02 <AnMaster> then gcc_cv_as_balign_and_p2align=yes
21:12:10 <AnMaster> ais523, that has some horrible formatting
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21:20:27 <AnMaster> ais523, ah tracked it down to the line: checking what assembler to use... expr: syntax error
21:21:29 <ais523> I'm not surprised, given the formatting
21:22:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well it was a different expr
21:22:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and now I know how it checks unbuilt gas version
21:22:48 <AnMaster> ais523, by grepping the configure of it
21:22:54 <AnMaster> which fails here for some reason
21:23:08 <AnMaster> as in, it gets an empty string for all the files it tries
21:23:18 <AnMaster> for f in $gcc_cv_as_bfd_srcdir/configure \
21:23:18 <AnMaster> $gcc_cv_as_gas_srcdir/configure \
21:23:18 <AnMaster> $gcc_cv_as_gas_srcdir/configure.in \
21:23:18 <AnMaster> $gcc_cv_as_gas_srcdir/Makefile.in ; do
21:23:18 <AnMaster> gcc_cv_gas_version=`grep '^VERSION=[0-9]*\.[0-9]*' $f`
21:23:21 <ais523> is it a \r\n vs \n problem?
21:23:28 <AnMaster> [logic to test for found string]
21:23:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I doubt that in this case
21:23:38 <ais523> hmm, apparently not given that grep string
21:24:11 <AnMaster> ais523, oh there is an extra space in this version
21:24:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't even imagine why anyone would break it like that
21:24:40 <ais523> you have the wrong version of VERSION?
21:25:01 <AnMaster> configure-# Define the identity of the package.
21:25:30 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'm editing configure directly. I don't think I want to try autogen.sh in gcc...
21:25:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I am of the opinion that the normal usage of quote marks needs revision.
21:25:57 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what new usage would you suggest?
21:26:15 <ais523> instead of `quoting' words `like this'
21:26:26 <ais523> let's $(quote' words $)like this'
21:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, in English at least, quotation marks change the context in which a sentence is interpreted, rather than changing its interpretation altogether,
21:27:53 <AnMaster> gcc_cv_gas_major_version=`expr "$gcc_cv_gas_version" : "VERSION=\([0-9]*\)"`
21:27:57 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me how this works
21:28:04 <AnMaster> I can't figure out what the syntax is even
21:28:28 <ais523> maybe it's a string compare?
21:28:32 <ais523> in some really old expr?
21:30:17 <AnMaster> ais523, not the one I have here
21:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, btw need to do the same fix for ld
21:31:27 <AnMaster> it checks that version the same way
21:31:34 <AnMaster> now this might compile. Lets hope
21:37:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think of this:
21:37:51 <AnMaster> gcc_cv_gas_version=`grep '^ *VERSION=[0-9]*\.[0-9]*' $f | sed 's/^ //'`
21:38:01 <AnMaster> yes it breaks with space at start
21:40:39 * AnMaster starts make again and goes to eat something
21:41:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I will notify you of any more wtf when I get back (and I did check all configure for similar greps... only in two places, both in same file)
21:41:40 <ais523> I'm well aware that the gcc build system is wtf
21:43:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well first time I seen you facepalm
21:43:28 <ais523> I actually did so in RL
21:43:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway aren't more modern ones, 4.4 and later slightly saner?
21:43:41 <ais523> well, maybe, they're insane enough though
21:43:45 <AnMaster> ais523, at least it installs man pages in the right dir by default
21:43:56 <ais523> sufficiently so that comparison becomes meaningless
21:44:05 <ais523> I don't see why manpage location is worrying at all compared to the other stuff it does
21:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, this system /has/ a manpage in /usr/man
21:44:54 <ais523> it looks like the package got lost somehow
21:45:33 <ais523> an OCR program, I think
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21:53:09 <ais523> AnMaster: it's building libgcc
21:53:13 <ais523> you wanted floating-point emulation, right?
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21:53:19 <ais523> it has to compile that somehow
21:53:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well no that is done in the OS -_-
21:53:32 <AnMaster> ais523, why is it called xgcc?
21:53:33 <ais523> well, 64-bit multiply then
21:53:42 <ais523> AnMaster: to avoid nameclashes, I think
21:53:52 <AnMaster> ais523, this would need a helper for 32-bit addition...
21:55:28 <ais523> AnMaster: muldi3 is (uint32_t)a = (uint32_t)b * (uint32_t)c
21:55:36 <ais523> one of the primitives that GCC breaks programs down into
21:55:49 <ais523> apparently the operation doesn't exist on the target platform, so gcc's making emulation code for it
21:56:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but I'm not going to work with numbers wider than 16 bits anyway
21:56:45 <AnMaster> ais523, how comes you know what _muldi3 is?
21:56:46 <ais523> well then that bit of libgcc won't be linked
21:56:53 <ais523> AnMaster: because I've written a gcc backend?
21:57:02 <ais523> if muldi3 wasn't implemented, it just wouldn't work
21:57:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the names follow a pretty consistent pattern
21:57:39 <ais523> wait, di is 64, not 32
21:57:46 <ais523> si is 32, hi is 16, qi is 8
21:58:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well 64 bit math is just out of question on this thing anyway
21:58:20 <AnMaster> float will probably be 32 bit at most
21:58:27 <ais523> AnMaster: so that's the 64-bit multiply I mentioned earlier
21:58:31 <AnMaster> and I may develop 16 bit float libs instead of using the OS
21:58:44 <AnMaster> since space is really at a premium here...
21:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no idea what do do about the ICE though...
21:59:18 <ais523> I had to debug loads of those things
21:59:28 <ais523> more annoying was when I got the compiler into an infinite loop
21:59:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well gcc 3.x is hardly supported any longer
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21:59:43 <ais523> you wouldn't believe how easy it is to define something in terms of itself
22:00:00 <AnMaster> ais523, in that RTL language or such?
22:00:12 <ais523> which is what libgcc is written in
22:00:15 <AnMaster> ais523, in C I don't believe it
22:00:22 <ais523> imagine trying to implement a = b * c
22:00:29 <ais523> but not in terms of multiplication
22:00:47 <ais523> and you can't just use a loop because that would be inefficient
22:00:55 <ais523> so you use narrower multiplies, and bitshifts all over the place
22:01:08 <AnMaster> ais523, if we assume c >= 0 atm: a=0; while(c--) a+=b; ?
22:01:21 <ais523> AnMaster: massively inefficient
22:01:27 <ais523> you wouldn't want every multiplication in a whole program to compile into that
22:01:49 <ais523> I implemented a 32-bit unsigned integer multiply in JavaScript a while back
22:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't want 64 bit arithmetics on a system which is this cramped anyway!
22:02:13 <ais523> (the fun bit there: JavaScript's only numeric type is the double-precision float, and it can't store all 64-bit integers accurately)
22:02:25 <ais523> AnMaster: they don't cost if you don't use them
22:02:57 <AnMaster> I didn't hate js before. Now I do
22:03:08 <ais523> I rather like it; its library support, OTOH, is awful
22:03:16 <ais523> let me find a snippet of source code
22:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I hatehatehatehatehate JS because some idiot in my school decided it was a good language in which to teach programming.
22:04:19 <AnMaster> doesn't make js itself as bad though
22:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> The weak typing is probably the bit I find most jarring, though.
22:05:36 <ais523> function arraysort(a) { /* Can we use a built-in sort method? */ if (Array.sort) return Array.sort(a); /* If not, use quicksort. */ if (a.length <= 1) return a; var pivot = a[0]; var b = new Array; var c = new Array; for (var i = 1; i < a.length; i++) { if (a[i] < pivot) b[b.length] = a[i]; else c[c.length] = a[i]; } b = arraysort(b); c = arraysort(c); b[b.length] = pivot; for (var i = 0; i < c.length; i++) b[b.length] = c[i]; return b; }
22:06:03 <AnMaster> hm... weak static typing is that possible?
22:06:21 <ais523> obviously a quicksort isn't quite optimal, but it was easy to write and I know the data it runs on isn't quicksort-pathological
22:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And when we write programs to verify that an input is in a range of numbers, *we don't need to verify the number*.
22:06:37 <ais523> statically typed scalar/array/hash
22:06:52 <Phantom_Hoover> My teacher has accepted programs that will take "a fish" as a valid voting age.
22:06:54 <ais523> simultaneously, it has strong dynamic typing
22:06:57 <AnMaster> ais523, bash is dynamically typed but very weakly typed
22:07:41 <ais523> AnMaster: at any given moment, a scalar is, say, a string, or a reference to a hash, or a reference to an IO::Handle object, or whatever
22:08:14 <ais523> and it doesn't help that most built-in operators force contexts on things
22:08:28 <AnMaster> ais523, everything is a string... that would work for very weak static typing
22:08:45 <ais523> well, with that reasoning, Unlambda
22:08:50 <ais523> that's statically typed
22:08:53 <ais523> because it only has one type
22:09:03 <ais523> thus you can type-check it at compile time
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22:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Tcl represents everything as a string, doesn't it?
22:09:11 <AnMaster> ais523, "everything is an 2D array of integers"
22:09:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not internally iirc
22:09:41 <ais523> AnMaster: that's just an optimisation, it doesn't affect language semantics
22:09:52 <oerjan> in unlambda, characters are second-class values
22:10:07 <ais523> if a Haskell implementation chooses to store "1024" as the number 1024 with some sort of "this is a string" tag, it doesn't make it any less strongly typed
22:10:52 <AnMaster> ais523, major wtf of gcc: fixincludes
22:11:12 <ais523> AnMaster: it tries to make platform include files more standards-compliant
22:11:15 <AnMaster> ais523, especially since it doesn't just do std* headers but all headers for god knows what
22:11:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well since when is X11 includes "platform includes"?
22:11:41 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/lego/brickOS/toolchain/build-native/binutils/ranlib ./libgcc.a
22:11:41 <AnMaster> /lib/libc.so.6: file not recognized: File format not recognized
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22:11:46 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or are the ConwayLife forums broken?
22:11:53 <AnMaster> now that was cryptic (trying to build a native one atm)
22:11:58 <AnMaster> (since that was recommended somewhere)
22:13:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: For Game of Life discussion go to #b3s23 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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22:14:11 <ais523> AnMaster: try to run file on it
22:15:15 <AnMaster> /lib/libc.so.6: symbolic link to `libc-2.11.1.so'
22:15:21 <AnMaster> /lib/libc.so.6: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
22:15:28 <ais523> if your libc got overwritten, you're in really serious trouble
22:16:07 <AnMaster> /lib/libc.so.6: file not recognized: File format not recognized
22:16:07 <AnMaster> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
22:16:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Try executing libc.so.6
22:17:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, well duh that works... yes
22:17:21 <ais523> what would executing a libc even /do/?
22:17:30 <pikhq> ais523: Call its main() function.
22:17:31 <AnMaster> ais523, the usual version info
22:17:43 <AnMaster> GNU C Library stable release version 2.11.1, by Roland McGrath et al.
22:17:44 <pikhq> All shared libraries on Linux are executables which happen to export functions.
22:17:55 <ais523> GNU C Library (EGLIBC) stable release version 2.10.1, by Roland McGrath et al.
22:18:07 <pikhq> Some of them don't happen to have a main function, so they crash.
22:18:12 <ais523> 'cept you can't run them normally
22:18:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, only one I know that has it is some glibc ones
22:18:45 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but Windows doesn't have shared libraries. More of a on-demand statically-linked-at-runtime thing. :P
22:18:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, and that is libc and ld iirc
22:19:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Typically, just libc and bizarre things.
22:19:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, other ones, like libm segfault
22:19:07 <ais523> pikhq: that's a bizarre way to put it
22:19:14 <ais523> you can load DLLs at runtime, without issue
22:19:41 <pikhq> ais523: It does this by relocating the libraries. The whole thing.
22:20:08 <ais523> that seems sufficiently insane for Windows
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22:20:48 <AnMaster> new idea: static only compiler
22:21:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, --disable-shared you mean
22:21:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I'm *trying to compile gcc*
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22:22:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is a very old gcc. I'm not really surprised
22:23:05 <pikhq> What was the last thing I said?
22:23:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, <pikhq> ais523: It does this by relocating the libraries. The whole thing.
22:23:27 <pikhq> If the library is in memory but not at a usable address, it will load another copy of the library into memory and relocate it.
22:23:28 <AnMaster> <ais523> that seems sufficiently insane for Windows
22:24:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, even on 64-bit? Where you have cheap RIP relative addressing
22:24:26 <pikhq> Linux does this, but only for non-PIC libraries. Which straight-up do not work not-x86.
22:24:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: Pretty sure it does that on 64-bit too.
22:25:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, also this could work on other platforms for linux too. Would be insane however
22:25:52 <pikhq> It was only ever supported on x86 because a) PIC code is slower on x86, b) a.out shared libraries couldn't handle PIC code.
22:26:12 <pikhq> Such a legacy thing.
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22:27:05 <Sgeo> That sounds .. COBOL-esque
22:27:14 <Sgeo> I'm sure you're referring to something else
22:27:42 <Sgeo> Did I ever share the story of why I learned COBOL?
22:27:52 <pikhq> Very easy on x86_64.
22:27:55 <Sgeo> (well, if reading a book on == learning)
22:28:01 <pikhq> As you can just address relative to the instruction pointer.
22:28:48 <pikhq> Ends up eating another register on x86.
22:29:09 <Sgeo> For some reason, some book I read mentioned CORBA, which I knew nothing [and still know nothing] about
22:29:27 <Sgeo> So, some time later, I'm by a bookstore, and I see a book, COBOL For Dummies
22:29:33 <pikhq> Gah; how many registers end up being useful on x86 for shared library code?
22:29:47 <Sgeo> So I buy it, not realizing that what I wanted was CORBA, not COBOL
22:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Object_Request_Broker_Architecture
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23:34:56 * Sgeo should probably attempt to understand DVCS
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23:54:02 <ais523> Sgeo: DVCSes are amazing
23:54:47 <Ilari> DVCS has to take relativity of events into account. :-)
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00:16:46 <Sgeo> http://z7.comicostrich.com/comic.php?cdate=20050530
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02:57:44 <poiuy_qwert> anyone here played with the Gammaplex interpreter?
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06:07:45 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-wipp2.ogg
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07:30:52 <SgeoN1> Wish I had my earbuds right now.
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07:32:52 <SgeoN1> Awesome! I can't play downloads and do other things at the same time.
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08:52:18 <augur> Gregor: that was pretty good music
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12:38:02 <SgeoN1> Would an aperiodic pattern moving through space have a speed?
12:45:26 <SgeoN1> I think it's defined in terms of how many generations it takes for a pattern to translate itself how far.
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13:23:46 <Ilari> Is there even example of aperioidic pattern that moves?
13:26:02 <Ilari> Pattern that could be interesting: 1) Aperioidic and 2) coordinate limits for some axis tend to same direction without bound.
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13:27:53 <Ilari> Except that rake that fires ships with component in direction of motion would satisfy that...
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14:12:12 <Sgeo> http://superosity.keenspot.com/d/20050304.html http://superosity.keenspot.com/sup20100516-big.jpg
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14:15:02 <Sgeo> Hi Phantom_Hoover. Read logs?
14:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: There's a pattern that makes the whole universe aperiodic, if it helps.
14:18:22 <Sgeo> ? wouldn't that be any gun?
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14:29:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: According to the Scotsman, a million people die of hepatitis C per year.
14:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Even though in the same article they said that only 400000 people had it.
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15:21:05 <uorygl> `translate Yo como esto.
15:22:06 <uorygl> "Yo" means "I"; "como" means either "eat" or "similar to"; "esto" means "this".
15:22:48 <uorygl> Google Translate apparently translated it word-for-word, assuming that "como" in that context meant "similar to", i.e. "like".
15:29:47 <Gregor-L> `translate uorygl esta como esto
15:30:28 <Gregor-L> `translate uorygl es como esto
15:31:49 <uorygl> `translate A uorygl es les gusta esto.
15:32:22 <uorygl> `translate A Kelsey le gusta la comida.
15:32:32 <uorygl> `translate uorygl es les gusta esto.
15:32:52 <uorygl> I conclude that Google Translate is stupid.
15:34:43 <Gregor-L> `translate uorygl aspira pene de burro
15:34:59 <Gregor-L> I don't think Google Translate likes you!
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16:59:32 <ais523> hmm, trying to compile someone else's C++ program, and I'm getting a bizarre error
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17:00:12 <ais523> "error: no matching function for call to ‘QSet<int>::contains(QSet<int>&)’" "note: candidates are: bool QSet<T>::contains(const T&) const [with T = int]"
17:00:27 <ais523> in other words, no function matches, or possibly more than one, look, here's exactly one
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17:01:01 <ais523> I wonder if something's weird about the mismatch in the amount of constness
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17:08:39 <fizzie> Yes, the "candidates" it list are (I think) just the ones with the same name.
17:09:18 <fizzie> And for QSet<int>, you only have that one that takes a const int&, and your argument is actually a QSet<int>.
17:09:41 <ais523> the existing function is set-contains-member, rather than set-contains-set
17:10:08 <ais523> I fear I have the wrong version of various libraries, but I'm just going around fixing things up by hand atm
17:10:20 <ais523> working out what they're meant to do and rewriting them to something that works
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17:13:12 <fizzie> It's even better when the missing library function is a local patch which no-one has bothered to document.
17:13:17 <ais523> seems the set in question is fixed-size, so I just changed it into four contains calls separated by &&
17:16:05 <ais523> I /did/ notice that the Linux binaries of the thing in question were 404s, which is not an encouraging sign
17:16:11 <ais523> maybe someone broke the Linux build recently
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17:37:01 <pikhq_> I think at this point, it's just dropping connections to fuck with me.
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17:48:03 <AnMaster> * Rugxulo wonders if AnMaster ever got the cross compiler going <-- will look at it during the weekend and later
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17:49:57 <pikhq> Yeah, the modem is fucking with me.
17:50:00 <pikhq> It keeps resetting.
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18:02:11 <pikhq_> Modem hates me *so much*
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18:12:20 <impomatic> I'm starting a collection of flowchart templates.
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18:21:44 <fizzie> "Computer and information scientists"?
18:21:52 <fizzie> (Our lab used to be called "CIS".)
18:24:39 <fizzie> (Before it merged with the TCS -- theoretical computer science -- lab to form an ICS -- information and computer science -- department. I can manage to remember that much, but never the corresponding Finnish terms.)
18:25:37 <fizzie> If you mean [[1. sissy, pantywaist, pansy, milksop, Milquetoast -- (a timid man or boy considered childish or unassertive)]], that's spelt differently.
18:28:47 <Zuu> You're such a fizzie
18:29:01 <Zuu> I mean, Hi!
18:29:31 <fizzie> Wordnet doesn't know about me, but as far as I've been told, I'm some sort of a bath product.
18:30:28 <fizzie> This thing you dump in a bath tub and it goes fizzly and gives out some scents and colours the water and whatever.
18:31:34 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_fizzie has a redirect.
18:33:27 * Zuu plobs fizzie into his bath tub
18:34:02 <Zuu> Pretty colors :)
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19:16:25 <AnMaster> ais523, yay I finally got the toolchain to compile
19:30:43 <AnMaster> only to find out the thing needed a C++ cross compiler too
19:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Where saner systems have GCSEs, the SQA has Foundation, General, Credit (all Standard Grade), Access 3, Intermediate 1 and Intermediate 2.
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19:35:23 * oerjan thinks #b3s23 is a rather bad name if you want _other_ than #esoteric regulars to find the channel
19:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And the Standard Grade grading system has 6 types of pass and *4* kinds of fail.
19:36:12 <oerjan> and they weren't on the same topic?
19:39:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's available, it seems
19:39:24 <fizzie> Shouldn't game-of-life talk be on a ##channel anyhow?
19:39:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wasn't grub one the nicks that the founder of this network owned?
19:39:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Maybe you're confusing with lilo. :p
19:39:59 <AnMaster> "-NickServ- Last seen : (about 2 weeks ago)"
19:40:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: Both are bootloaders, after all.
19:40:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but I thought he owned both nicks
19:40:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, Hm is Conway still alive?
19:40:36 <AnMaster> if yes he could register a #channel one ;P
19:41:07 <oerjan> he's probably far too busy to be on irc
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19:41:49 <oerjan> and life is just one of his many inventions, anyway
19:42:27 <pikhq> Conway's done a *lot* of stuff.
19:42:57 <oerjan> some of which is much more mathematically impressive than game of life
19:43:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: Possibly, though the "primary channel" rules say "groups and organizations", not individuals. But he's a mathematician, he can always define himself to be a single-element group.
19:43:29 <pikhq> Yes, it's the most well-known bit of his recreational mathematics work.
19:44:09 <oerjan> fizzie: he knows a lot about finite groups, that's for sure ;)
19:44:30 <oerjan> (some of the simple finite groups are named after him)
19:45:10 <oerjan> ("simple" here is in the technical sense, btw, which is far from simple)
19:45:27 <pikhq> He also invented an algorithm for calculating days of the week that can reasonably be done in your head.
19:45:40 <pikhq> (called the "Doomsday algorithm")
19:45:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, day of the week given a date or?
19:46:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Given a date.
19:46:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, also does it take into account the Julian/Gregorian switch?
19:46:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, and if so, for which country
19:46:24 <pikhq> No, it's purely Gregorian.
19:46:37 <oerjan> hmph, _i_ can calculate days of the week in my head, given enough time, no formula needed ;)
19:46:52 <pikhq> Well. You can adapt the algorithm easily to Julian, but it doesn't account for switch dates.
19:46:58 <pikhq> oerjan: In a few seconds?
19:47:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, considering Sweden had a especially funny and problematic switch. IIRC we tried to switch slowly at first by skipping leap year for several years. Except we failed to skip it a lot of the time
19:47:17 <oerjan> given enough time, i said
19:47:26 <AnMaster> so one year we gave up, went back to julian by inserting *two* leapdays
19:47:42 <AnMaster> then some 50 or whatever years later we switched it all in one go
19:48:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, could you handle that ;P
19:48:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not trivially.
19:48:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: fwiw the original romans had the same problem with the julian calendar, after julius caesar died there was a messy time when they had leap years every third instead of every fourth year iirc
19:48:43 <AnMaster> described under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#Adoption_in_Europe
19:48:58 <pikhq> It would also probably get *royally* screwed up by things like Japan's switch from the Chinese lunar calendar to the Gregorian calendar.
19:49:16 <oerjan> augustus had to fix it, i think
19:49:56 <pikhq> ... And reign years.
19:50:16 <pikhq> Japan still uses reign years!
19:50:51 <oerjan> the romans _before_ caesar had a _real_ mess, they had leap months that were inserted by whim by politicians
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19:51:45 <oerjan> and could be used to shorten or prolong elected terms
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19:52:12 <fizzie> Thailand's current official calendar is currently in year 2553, but I don't know/remember the details.
19:52:42 <pikhq> Japan is currently in the year 22.
19:52:52 <pikhq> Heisei 22, to be specific.
19:52:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? and what do computers in Japan say?
19:53:09 <pikhq> Anno Domini years are *also* in use.
19:53:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: especially since they were corrupt enough that it caused the year to drift
19:53:35 <pikhq> And fortunately, the only difference *is* the epoch, so it doesn't matter too much.
19:53:48 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_solar_calendar -- I don't know about computers, but at least product "best before" labels used those years.
19:53:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, why didn't they just insert months forever then?
19:53:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: max 1 per year
19:54:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah. But they did insert one every year presumably?
19:54:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: well sometimes they wanted to _shorten_ the term of someone they didn't like, i think
19:55:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't it shorten the term for themselves too?
19:55:18 <oerjan> i'm not exactly who decided and whose terms were affected
19:56:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, also how could it be used to shorten things? After all wouldn't that require inserting a negative leap month!?
19:56:11 <oerjan> the consuls were affected, i think. the years were _named_ after their consuls, so they sort of had to be i think
19:56:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: well shorter than if they inserted one
19:58:12 <pikhq> fizzie: What's with the Chinese numerals? o.O
19:58:27 <oerjan> (the consuls were the two most powerful officials in rome, when there wasn't a dictator)
20:00:10 <oerjan> 04:38:02 <SgeoN1> Would an aperiodic pattern moving through space have a speed?
20:00:22 <oerjan> a truly aperiodic pattern would have to be growing
20:01:12 <oerjan> if it grows to both directions, the average speed might be zero
20:01:31 <oerjan> i assume "moving through space" implies it moves mostly in one direction, though
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20:01:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, says on the page it often also lists that and Gergorian as well?
20:02:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm just not comprehending why is all.
20:02:19 <pikhq> It's not like Thai is written with Chinese characters!
20:02:42 <oerjan> in which case you could define the speed as the limit of the displacement of the "center of mass" divided by time. there is no guarantee the limit actually _exists_, though
20:02:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, since computers internally work with unix time commonly, presumably it might, but it is just a string formatting thing
20:03:41 <oerjan> (the pattern could stop for a while, then go on, then stop, in such a way that the average fluctuates and the limit fails to exist)
20:06:36 <oerjan> <Ilari> Is there even example of aperioidic pattern that moves?
20:07:02 <oerjan> in principle it should exist, since you have constructors, arbitrary computation and stuff
20:11:30 <oerjan> 10:33:27 * Zuu plobs fizzie into his bath tub
20:11:30 <oerjan> 10:34:02 <Zuu> Pretty colors :)
20:11:54 <oerjan> it's not _healthy_ when someone turns blue in the bath tub, you know
20:13:58 <Zuu> Also, i would just like to inform that it is very annoying to write whitespace sensitive parsers
20:14:23 <pikhq> Zuu: What sort of whitespace sensitivity?
20:14:25 <oerjan> ais523: russian wiki spam
20:14:47 <Zuu> the kind where whitespace have meaning in some places, and doesnt in other places
20:15:14 <Zuu> structure by indentation for instance
20:15:44 <Zuu> for instance
20:15:56 <oerjan> haskell's indentation system is rather awkward to implement
20:16:17 <pikhq> Do the Python solution. Have the lexer convert it into up-indentation and down-indentation tokens.
20:16:48 <Zuu> hmmm... but that would just be a nasty lexer then
20:16:52 <pikhq> Yeah, Haskell's indentation is very much for the sake of people writing code, not the sake of the compiler.
20:16:53 <oerjan> as in, you cannot do it purely in the lexer - it interacts with the grammar's error rules
20:17:03 <Zuu> although i suppose it could turn out to be better than soing it in the parser
20:17:18 <Zuu> but still, i have linebreak sensitivity too
20:18:28 <Zuu> oh well, my language is soon done, sooo...
20:21:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, but how does it handle blank lines with no indentation?
20:21:13 <AnMaster> because I'm pretty sure that works
20:21:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: only the indentation of actual tokens matter, iirc
20:21:54 <AnMaster> but checking for that seems rather nasty
20:22:13 <oerjan> also, indentation of tokens can matter even if it's not the first token on the line
20:22:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, also line continuations:
20:22:50 <oerjan> although only after the indentation block starters (do, of, where, let)
20:22:54 <Zuu> Phantom_Hoover: i think i have peeked in here a few time before :)
20:23:00 <AnMaster> if the indention is also done with spaces
20:23:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: er -- is a line comment in haskell, no continuation involved
20:24:22 <Zuu> line-continuations
20:24:29 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> (- is indent here):
20:24:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I was referring to python mostly
20:24:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, as in, in general terms
20:24:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, because well, tab tends to render badly with many irc clients
20:25:05 <AnMaster> and it was important to be make the thing clear
20:25:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh. python is simpler i believe, although even it allows some things to continue, yeah
20:25:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes and it allows the first case too of no indention on a blank line afaik
20:25:58 <oerjan> in haskell to continue things you need to indent them more than the current block, though, so _that_ detail is simpler in haskell
20:26:48 <oerjan> although it still trips up people in some situations, notably if then else in do blocks (which is modified in the new Haskell 2010 revision)
20:27:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, sigh, I was talking about python all along. Not about haskell..
20:27:37 <oerjan> so? i can talk about haskell for comparison.
20:27:50 <AnMaster> well, it seems rather fixed at haskell
20:28:11 <oerjan> er english parsing error
20:29:28 <AnMaster> also I do believe my computer is estimating charge time left somewhat incorrectly... "59% charged, 28734e+23 hours and 23 minutes left until fully charged"
20:30:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: also you started your part of the discussion by asking pikhq how the blank lines were done in haskell, which was what i started answering
20:30:07 <fizzie> "ETA 24855d 3:14:07" said a download thing to me an hour ago.
20:30:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that could have been plausible stalled
20:30:42 <fizzie> Maybe your battery-charging is stalled too. The electrons are resting.
20:30:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, as far as I know the gnome power applet thingy does this is based on previous charges
20:31:04 <AnMaster> it looks at the time left before
20:31:22 <AnMaster> since percentage charged it isn't a linear function of time
20:31:33 <AnMaster> so it uses previously calculated curves for it
20:31:44 <AnMaster> okay now it looks even stranger..
20:32:00 <AnMaster> "60% charged, -2 hours and 0 minutes left until fully charged"
20:32:17 <AnMaster> and no it wasn't fully charged back then :P
20:35:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what does it look like?
20:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> A bobble hat with a tube coming from the top and connecting to the side.
20:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose that most cylindrical technology would work properly.
20:42:00 <oerjan> you just need to connect the top of a cylinder to the bottom in the wrong way
20:42:41 <oerjan> so toroidal mapping on left and right edges, mirror wrapping on bottom/top
20:44:32 <oerjan> the tricky part with these 2-manifolds i think is convincing yourself each cell still has 8 neighbors in the corners
20:44:32 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc configure options docs: "Native Language Support is enabled by default if not doing a canadian cross build."
20:45:04 <SgeoN1> What happened? I was sleeping
20:46:22 <oerjan> as long as each corner borders the four others it's fine, i think
20:47:31 <oerjan> this sewing together two-manifolds was basically the starting part of our algebraic topology course
20:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I have not taken an algebraic topology course, wop the advantage is yours.
20:48:28 <Zuu> I dont like how the 'bottle' intersects its own surface
20:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I had to revise complex numbers for about half an hour in class today.
20:48:56 <Zuu> Would be more awesome to have a 'one sided bottle' that didnt intersect itself
20:48:57 <oerjan> Zuu: that's the price for picturing it in three dimensions
20:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Zuu: It's the same reason you can't have a Moebius band in 2D.
20:49:41 <Zuu> oerjan: if you picture it in four dimensions, can you please picture me while holding the bottle? :P
20:50:36 <oerjan> Zuu: i don't think there are any non-oriented 2-manifolds without borders (the technical term for one sided bottle :D) that can be embedded without intersection in three dimensions
20:51:13 <Zuu> oerjan: i have no idea what you just tried to tell me there :P
20:51:31 <oerjan> Zuu: i repeat, *MWAHAHAHA*
20:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Zuu: You can't have a 3-sided bottle in 3D unless it intersects itself.
20:51:50 <Zuu> Phantom_Hoover: good, because i dont want one
20:52:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
20:52:06 <Zuu> i want a 'one sided'
20:52:25 <Zuu> Muhaha, scared fo the one sided bottle :P
20:52:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/fax.
20:52:40 <Zuu> me shakes the bottle in front of Phantom_Hoover's face :P
20:52:41 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
20:53:01 <oerjan> unless there are protests
20:53:08 <oerjan> this time, the reverse
20:54:17 <Zuu> I suppose i'd have to settle for one with edges then
20:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> But a while ago fax/soupdragon said that s?he had a marvellous demonstration of the falsehood of string theory based on the non-orientability(?) of the Klein bottle.
20:55:50 <Zuu> that sounds like two completely unrelated topics to me, but oh well
20:56:24 <oerjan> Zuu: i think that was about when s?he started unhinging
20:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Without quite a lot of explanation which you can just logread for.
20:57:09 <Sgeo> Someone pinged me, I was napping
20:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: It was a sort-of sane argument, but it fell down easily and fax was bloody obnoxious about it.
20:57:51 <Zuu> thats the problem of spending too much time on something, you become too comitted :)
20:59:02 * Sgeo finds it and reads it
20:59:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: does fax have something against you personally btw, i have a vague idea this is not the first time s?he curses you
20:59:43 <oerjan> this may just be my faulty memory
21:00:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I ignored h(im|er) during the Brainfuck->Nat thing, and s?he took it badly.
21:00:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: i pinged you but i've forgotten what i twas
21:00:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, about aperiodic needing to be growing, stuff like that
21:01:23 <oerjan> i just wondered if s?he had any remotely sane reason to assume you were actually trying to insult her
21:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Though I did insult her during the Life thing, sort of.
21:02:15 <Phantom_Hoover> But this was after the Klein bottle thing, and she was slightly unhinged already.
21:03:19 <Sgeo> Bye Phantom_Hoover
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21:30:16 <Zuu> Whoah, my parser seems to work pretty well :)
21:31:26 <oerjan> clearly it's a general statement
21:31:35 <oerjan> do you have _any_ idea
21:32:22 <Ilari> Yeah, as great the amount of different stuff string theory can reproduce, there are limits for it...
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22:11:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: For Game of Life discussion go to ##gameoflife | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:14:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, gcc configure options docs: "Native Language Support is enabled by default if not doing a canadian cross build."
22:14:29 <ais523> ok, I didn't see that line
22:14:38 <ais523> and canadian cross, it would probably be too tricky to write the configure file
22:15:23 <ais523> no, look up what a canadian cross actually is
22:15:28 <ais523> you cross-compile a cross-compiler
22:15:42 <pikhq> Is nice and crazy stuff.
22:15:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it did seem very wtf if you interpreted it as I did
22:16:07 <AnMaster> ../../gcc-3.4.6/gcc/c-dump.c:136:5: warning: case value '152' not in enumerated type 'enum tree_code'
22:16:07 <AnMaster> ../../gcc-3.4.6/gcc/c-dump.c:121:5: warning: case value '153' not in enumerated type 'enum tree_code'
22:16:07 <AnMaster> ../../gcc-3.4.6/gcc/c-dump.c:163:5: warning: case value '154' not in enumerated type 'enum tree_code'
22:16:23 <AnMaster> and yeah I haven't got C++ compiler to work
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22:17:20 <AnMaster> the thing is... it ends in a non-deterministic place kind of. Sometimes a sub-configure, sometimes in linking, sometimes in compiling. Then in the same sub-configure again even though the issue was supposedly solved already...
22:17:34 <AnMaster> and sometimes I made no changes between those
22:26:57 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
22:27:12 <oerjan> !reverse We automate things, here
22:27:16 <EgoBot> ereh ,sgniht etamotua eW
22:27:18 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for postmodern_aoler!
22:27:26 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for postmodern!
22:27:45 <oerjan> none of those have help messages
22:27:53 <oerjan> they're user-defined commands
22:28:03 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
22:28:20 <oerjan> ^rev Fungot can do stuff too
22:28:20 <fungot> oot ffuts od nac tognuF
22:29:26 <oerjan> i don't know if those actually are files
22:29:36 <oerjan> !postmodern Just try it like this
22:29:36 <EgoBot> Just try the semiotic object like this semiotically
22:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> !postmodern The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.
22:30:03 <EgoBot> Tted Kennedy rain the penetrated space of in the penetrated space of Spain the penetrated space of falls mainly on tted Kennedy plain the penetrated space of.
22:30:13 <oerjan> ok it actually _is_ defined that way :D
22:30:47 <Phantom_Hoover> !sh postmodern Klein bottles are not much good as bottles.
22:30:57 <Phantom_Hoover> !postmodern Klein bottles are not much good as bottles.
22:30:58 <EgoBot> Klein the penetrated space of bottles are not much subliminated homosexuality type as bottles.
22:32:40 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
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22:33:46 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
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22:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> That book was probably the first mathematical thing to which I was exposed.
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22:46:22 <pikhq> Isn't his name nearly the Norwegian equivalent of "John Smith"?
22:46:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]).
22:47:02 <oerjan> but the first name isn't too rare, either
22:47:41 * Sgeo is somewhat more difficult to Googlestalk than makes sense given his name.
22:48:00 <Sgeo> There's some gay DJ in the area with my name
22:48:10 <Sgeo> Erm, don't know if he's gay
22:48:17 <Sgeo> But I seem to recall something like that
22:49:12 <fizzie> ^echo Fungot also has that confusing echo.
22:49:12 <fungot> Fungot also has that confusing echo. Fungot also has that confusing echo.
22:49:49 <Sgeo> Hm, he mostly plays music for gay people
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22:57:39 <AnMaster> at last the cross compiler pain paid off
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23:04:39 <oerjan> A \o| winner \o/ is |o/ you.
23:06:04 * Zuu takes the prize and runs
23:06:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:44 <fizzie> oerjan is in the happy class of people who can utilize the dance and have the bodies align for both the "start of nickname" and "start of comment text" alignments.
23:07:35 <Sgeo> What does it look like for start of nickname folks?
23:08:12 <fizzie> It gets unaligned for non-six-letter nicks.
23:08:35 <Sgeo> Oh, I understand what you mean now
23:08:37 <oerjan> i thought myndzi's dancers _were_ start of nickname based
23:08:39 <fizzie> Er, I mean, for "start of comment text" folks. It's properly aligned for start-of-nickname alignment.
23:09:06 <Sgeo> So \o/ won't work for me
23:09:23 <fizzie> Well, it works if you do start-of-nickname.
23:09:24 <Sgeo> Or at least, to me, it looks like it won't work for me
23:09:35 <fizzie> <Sgeo> So \o/ won't work for me
23:09:49 <fizzie> That looks a bit disturbing.
23:09:58 <oerjan> it looks awful in the logs though, with the special characters
23:10:13 <Sgeo> Why are special characters even involved?
23:10:52 <Zuu> Oh look a guy whos leg itself have legs!
23:11:11 <oerjan> that's a nasty outgrowth you have there, sir
23:11:26 <Zuu> Must looke wicked to see that guy run ^^
23:11:28 <Sgeo> He looks like a double amputee
23:11:49 <Sgeo> Um, actually, I just now realized that that interpretation is NSFW
23:12:13 <oerjan> it's frequently NSFW anyhow
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23:13:13 <fizzie> Can you spread the \m/s out further away and have it spread its hands without limit?
23:14:45 <Zuu> I like how his feet and hands are several times larger than his head
23:14:59 <Sgeo> Those are chains
23:15:31 <Sgeo> At least, to me, they're "chain-y"
23:15:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: your _mind_ is NSFW
23:15:51 <Sgeo> Oh, the ms are hands, aren't they
23:16:00 <fizzie> Therefore: remember to leave your mind when going to work.
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23:17:24 <fizzie> I'd have assumed that \m/ is that hand sign, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corna you know.
23:17:46 <oerjan> elliottcable: lots of life here recently
23:17:57 <elliottcable> wasn’t it like 5 people last time I was in here?
23:18:34 <oerjan> that would have had to be before i joined, and i vaguely thought i'd seen you before...
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23:34:16 <AnMaster> oh elliottcable != ehird? Just same first name XD
23:35:31 <ais523> nah, it's ec, ehird's worst enemy
23:35:47 <ais523> good to see you back, anyway
23:35:51 <oerjan> no wait, good twin, obviously
23:36:46 <AnMaster> ais523, are they really enemies?
23:36:52 <ais523> worse than you and ehird
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23:53:35 <andares> Hey, how do you copy a value in brainfuck?
23:53:39 <andares> I'm having trouble figuring it out.
23:54:04 <pikhq> From p[0] to p[1]? [>+<-]
23:54:15 <andares> pikhq, copy, as in non-destructively.
23:54:50 <andares> I'm trying to write a brainfuck program to print out a value in ascii (base 10).
23:54:53 <pikhq> Oh, copy. p[0] to p[1] using p[2] as a temporary cell: [>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]
23:55:32 <pikhq> Also, the Brainfuck algorithms page on the Esolangs wiki is awesome.
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23:56:09 <pikhq> I seem to recall that I've stuck everything on there but the array stuff as PEBBLE's standard library.
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23:56:43 <Sgeo> When is PEBBLE receiving PSOX integration?
23:56:54 <andares> Someone should play code golf with brainfuck.
23:57:46 <pikhq> andares: Done several times. :)
23:58:03 <AnMaster> andares, iirc http://golf.shinh.org/ has brainfuck
23:58:27 <pikhq> Hmm. Perhaps I should make this Brainfuck-to-assembly compiler into a Brainfuck-to-machine-code compiler and port to Brainfuck.
23:59:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, better: write llvm bindings for brainfuck ;P
23:59:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, well I guess PSOX with llvm bindings would work
00:00:06 <pikhq> I like-a the threaded code-a.
00:00:25 <pikhq> Even though it's only slightly more efficient than a good interpreter. :P
00:03:58 <andares> Ugh, I can't figure out integer division.
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05:12:40 <Rugxulo> I still don't understand AnMaster's goal, just to have a "freehosting" (?) GCC/G++ for his whatever-oddball-processor?
05:13:05 <Rugxulo> there's bound to be other compilers besides GCC for it
05:13:23 <Rugxulo> heck, AnMaster knows some assembly, so screw the compilers, just use that, might be easier anyways :-P
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05:20:00 <Rugxulo> hey, I thought the Lego stuff supported Forth?
05:22:40 <Rugxulo> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25272
05:26:01 <Rugxulo> http://packages.debian.org/en/sid/binutils-h8300-hms
05:27:58 <Rugxulo> http://packages.debian.org/lenny/gcc-h8300-hms
05:28:48 <Rugxulo> and just to hammer the obvious home (though not sure if it makes it easier or not), MinGW, Cygwin, and DJGPP all use (some variant of) COFF
05:29:07 <Rugxulo> okay, laptop battery low, chat with ya later ;-)
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05:55:09 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> hey, I thought the Lego stuff supported Forth? <-- pbForth?
05:55:36 <AnMaster> also I don't wish to learn H8/300 asm
05:59:14 <AnMaster> anyway I needed newlib to be able to compile g++
05:59:20 <AnMaster> not that newlib is actually used then
05:59:43 <AnMaster> just needed for it to be able to compile
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08:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, it looks like someone has finally built a self-replicator in Life.
09:03:18 <Phantom_Hoover> And I now have profound respect for the inventor of the hashlife algorithm.
09:07:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399
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09:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence it it disassembles its parent after being activated.
09:15:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a lot prettier than the von Neumann replicators, though HighLife still wins that contest.
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11:36:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone else noticed that the shape of orbits is flowery when gravity is proportional to x^-1?
11:37:32 <oerjan> that's how it would probably work in 2d, after all
11:38:44 <oerjan> (that's not a personal "yes", btw :D)
11:40:11 <oerjan> *i haven't noticed personally, no
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14:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is a conspiracy.
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16:06:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wrt. http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399 : also a space ships that alters direction every now and then
16:06:41 <AnMaster> without any reflectors or such
16:07:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, (regular) polygon or something?
16:07:43 <AnMaster> you can't get a circle with just integers
16:09:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, challenge: write a GOL interpreter in GOL. And not the trivial "eval"-style one
16:10:07 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them simulating an infinite number of separate universes.
16:16:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hah and I doubt it would be the most efficient in life
16:17:02 <AnMaster> why? it is an "architecture" that is completely different from "normal" computers
16:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, making a computer that directly simulated Life on the hardware level probably wouldn't be as fast as using Golly.
16:18:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh just an... hm what is the English word
16:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> We kept the 'e' because we are decadent and capitalist.
16:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I just read someone saying that we travel at lightspeed down the time timension.
16:22:51 <AnMaster> that would imply we can't travel to the future (we can't go faster) but we could slow down and even reverse... But then we could never catch up with the "present" again or something
16:22:59 <AnMaster> but yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense
16:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So travelling along the time dimension means your speed is dt/dt, which makes no sense.
16:25:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, we should get space dilation :P
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18:27:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Is Sierpinski-pattern growth in any way mathematically interesting?
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18:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The replicator in HighLife and the straight line in cylindrical Life both have a growth pattern tied into the Sierpinski gasket.
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18:47:25 * pikhq can has obnoxiously swift Brainfuck compilation with hardly any optimisations being done
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19:17:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover!!!!!!!!1111eleven
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19:18:10 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is a conspiracy.
19:18:33 <oerjan> you know too much. expect your numbers to start not adding up in the future.
19:18:33 <fizzie> I was waiting for that previous exchange to escalate to interrobangs.
19:18:53 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm still not unicode-clean you know
19:19:08 <fizzie> You should take an unicode-shower.
19:19:41 <fizzie> It involves taking a bucketful of BMP characters and dumping them all over you.
19:20:03 <oerjan> <AnMaster> you can't get a circle with just integers
19:20:16 <oerjan> i think you are not aware of pythagorean numbers, then
19:20:34 <fizzie> (You'll keep finding CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPHs in your hair for weeks.)
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19:21:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, well it won't be a perfect *continuous* circle, right?
19:21:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: well a continuous circle is uncountable, so...
19:22:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is a "CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH"?
19:22:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, now, does that ever exist outside pure math? as in real world. Drawn circles and so on
19:23:45 <oerjan> we have no way of measuring finely enough to find out
19:23:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, on an atom-scale it seems doubtful
19:24:16 <Sgeo> "Chrome Web Store provides developers a window to over 70 million people, according to Google. It’s available in Chrome and Chrome OS and will be available in the Chrome Dev Center soon."
19:24:28 <Sgeo> And putting things on the web: Available to everyone!
19:24:45 <Sgeo> Seriously, this is.. disconcerting
19:25:06 <AnMaster> as long as they don't do vendor lockin
19:26:02 <pikhq> 's a Unicode supplement block.
19:26:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah and what does that mean
19:27:11 <Deewiant> CJK means Chinese/Japanese/Korean
19:27:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so the compat stuff?
19:28:32 <Deewiant> I'd guess it's compatibility for legacy character sets but I don't know
19:28:43 <fizzie> My guess is it's so that you can have a lossless translation from some legacy character sets to Unicode and back again.
19:28:56 <fizzie> At least that's the justification for some other compatibility bits.
19:29:04 <Deewiant> Yep, that's what I was guessing also
19:29:22 <AnMaster> the lossless bit is the key to having it make sense
19:29:29 <fizzie> "Compatibility Character. A character that would not have been encoded except for compatibility and round-trip convertibility with other standards."
19:29:51 <Deewiant> Well yes, I thought losslessness was obvious :-P
19:30:04 <AnMaster> meh I didn't consider it might be an issue
19:30:14 <AnMaster> after all it isn't for western languages really
19:30:52 <AnMaster> so I'm still somewhat mystified why not just encoding it as the "non-compat" entry for the same char...
19:33:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: perhaps the original character set had different forms for variations of the same character
19:33:34 <ws_> I have a new computing project
19:33:44 <ws_> but have yet to figure out some parts here and there
19:34:03 <ws_> basically, it's decomposing a computing problem into a set of, say, puzzle flash games or something like this
19:34:06 <pikhq> Not beinf for a "western language" does not remove the need for round-trip convertibility.
19:34:23 <ws_> so that users, not being aware of it, would be actually calculating something
19:34:31 <ws_> call it human-puting... MWAHAHAHAHA
19:34:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: i recall a discussion with someone who said that even distinguishing upper and lower case is really a compatibility feature for Unicode (it doesn't make sense in many charsets _other_ than western)
19:34:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, but a "western language" does not seem to have many issues with it
19:35:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: You say this because you use a Latin script.
19:35:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, so tell me why it is an issue elsewhere
19:35:41 <pikhq> Which really does not have encoding issues at *all*.
19:35:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, I fail to see why unicode would do that for latin charset
19:36:11 <pikhq> Makes about as much sense as Han unification.
19:36:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does? And what is that Han unification?
19:36:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: um do what? distinguishing or not distinguishing?
19:36:43 <pikhq> Merging upper and lower case.
19:36:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, the former. It shouldn't do the former.
19:37:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Han unification is the process whereby the glyphs for pretty much all CJK characters were merged into codepoints based on abstract meaning, regardless of (sometimes quite major) glyph variations.
19:37:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure ASCII converts fine for most stuff. But ISO-whatever-forgot-the-number for example does as well
19:37:53 <fizzie> It's mostly that they want a one-to-one mapping for existing systems, so they'll have to include characters that would "naturally" be represented some other way in Unicode. There's at least some "presentation variations" for Arabic that "should" be expressed using some rendering-state-changing characters, but legacy encodings have unique characters for those.
19:37:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is no EBCDIC compat block is there?
19:38:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, I see.. so now it is up to the font?
19:38:34 <pikhq> Which makes it a royal bitch to have plain text with both Chinese and Japanese in it.
19:38:58 <pikhq> They stopped *just* short of merging Simplified and Traditional Chinese.
19:39:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, they merged Chinese and Japanese!?
19:39:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, why not make case for Latin scripts up to the font as well? *shudder*
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19:39:43 <fizzie> Chinese, Japanese and Korean.
19:39:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, each language has its own glyph variants of Han characters.
19:39:59 <pikhq> fizzie: And Vietnamese's old orthography!
19:40:26 <AnMaster> so the things in question is about local differences within a language?
19:40:29 <oerjan> pikhq: if they merged simplified and traditional chinese, the PRC and/or ROC would probably have declared war ;D
19:40:43 <oerjan> (on the Unicode consortium)
19:41:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, they merged nearly all glyph variants.
19:41:12 <Sgeo> I guess the Chrome Web Store just makes finding cool web stuff easier
19:41:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, even between the languages? You said they were separate above.
19:41:52 <pikhq> No I didn't. I said each language posesses its own unique glyph variants for characters.
19:42:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, so now there are Simplified and Traditional + the rest? or what?
19:43:06 <pikhq> Simplified characters have their own codepoints. Traditional Chinese as written in China, as written in Korea, as written in Japan, and as formerly written in Vietnam are using the same codepoints.
19:43:10 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Examples_of_language_dependent_characters
19:43:27 <pikhq> *Except* when a previous encoding had differentiated them.
19:43:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, "<pikhq> *Except* when a previous encoding had differentiated them." <-- ?
19:43:56 <Deewiant> I.e. when the character is in a compatibility block.
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19:45:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, they do look _very_ similar all over
19:46:39 <AnMaster> there are like two variants of shape and a few variants that looks like font style (bolder, less bold, ...)
19:46:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's... Not quite right.
19:47:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, I doubt I have a lot of fonts for those installed
19:47:15 <AnMaster> it isn't like I could read it anyway
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19:47:43 <Deewiant> I think I've got the same font for the three Chinese variants
19:48:02 <fizzie> I haven't bothered to do any font-setting-up either, but due to some accident or other the Korean characters look a lot more calligraphistical and (arguably) nicer.
19:48:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me, "Chinese Traditional" definitely have larger and bolder letters
19:48:46 <AnMaster> Chinese (Generic) == Chinese Simplified
19:49:10 <AnMaster> Japanese looks like the simplified Chinese
19:49:17 <Deewiant> http://tar.us.to:4321/Han%20unification%20-%20Wikipedia,%20the%20free%20encyclopedia_1274294905927.png
19:49:23 <AnMaster> and Korean like the "Chinese Traditional"
19:49:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: Look at the table of non-unified characters.
19:50:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, varies between different lines there
19:50:12 <AnMaster> but in general Japanese looks like Simplified Chinese
19:50:30 <pikhq> Yes, the first and second lines are two different glyph variants.
19:50:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, for a few lines all entries on the line do look the same
19:50:55 <fizzie> To add another data point: http://zem.fi/~fis/wikihan.png
19:51:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, even more specialised fonts
19:51:31 <fizzie> Unfortunately I chose another part of the table than Deewiant.
19:51:34 <pikhq> 両, 两, and 兩 would be unified under normal Han unification rules.
19:51:54 <pikhq> As would 亀, 龜, and 龟.
19:52:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, they are the same glyph, and only one font has it encoded apparently.
19:52:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, except they seem to have different baseline
19:55:33 <fizzie> That U+9F9C character in this font -- http://zem.fi/~fis/wikihan2.png -- looks like an electrical-drawing symbol for something very funky.
19:56:53 <fizzie> My IRC font is so tiny that everything on-channel is just a messy blob.
19:57:23 <pikhq> They'd be Han unified if it weren't for compatibility issues.
19:58:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, so since these represent abstract concepts you said...
19:58:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, does that mean with just a change of font, a Japanese could read a Chinese text
19:58:57 <AnMaster> provided it only used "shared" glyphs
19:59:09 <AnMaster> (I don't know if some are unique to one of the languages)
19:59:38 <pikhq> Radically different grammar and semantics.
19:59:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, then han unification made even less sense
20:00:03 <pikhq> Japanese merely *borrowed* Chinese characters for the purpose of writing their language.
20:00:08 <fizzie> But could it be like reading the world's most horrible machine translation of the other language? :p
20:00:21 <pikhq> fizzie: Most horrible? Perhaps.
20:00:50 <fizzie> The "shared semantics" thing is the sort-of justification for the unification: "This isn’t to say that ideographs are truly ideographic, in that they represent abstract ideas; but they generally have one root meaning from which the others derive, and generally retain the bulk of their semantic content across linguistic boundaries."
20:01:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: I should also note: Chinese is not one language, but several languages, which happen to have a common standard orthography.
20:01:23 <fizzie> I have been under the impression that it was mostly to get everything to fit in 16 bits, though I can't find that said anywhere.
20:01:37 <pikhq> (presently, said standard is moderately formal written Mandarin. Before the 50s or so, it was Classical Chinese.)
20:02:47 <Deewiant> If it was only for the 16-bittiness, they should undo it now that they have 20 bits anyway.
20:03:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, so widely different dialects then?
20:03:11 <fizzie> You can get Unicode's "semantic content" hints for any of the unified characters from http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=9f9c -- that's for the turtle -- after scrolling past mappings to other encodings.
20:03:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, or is the grammar completely different?
20:03:44 <AnMaster> (there are some grammatical variations in Swedish dialects iirc)
20:03:58 <AnMaster> (mostly gone in "current" times)
20:04:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Grammar for the vernacular tends to have notable shifts. But they *are* related languages, so nothing quite as extreme as between Japanese and Chinese.
20:04:23 <pikhq> They have, however, had *very* radical phoneme shifts.
20:05:48 <pikhq> I'd say the best analogy is that the Sinitic languages are like the Romance languages, except with somehow writing in Latin being considered the way to write in the Romance languages.
20:06:13 <pikhq> (and... Reading it out loud using the local cognate words, not Latin)
20:06:30 <AnMaster> I have no clue what those are :P
20:06:51 <pikhq> Sinitic languages = the languages deriving from Old Chinese. Romance languages = the languages deriving from Latin.
20:07:09 <oerjan> romance = portuguese, spanish, french, italian, romanian, and some other small ones
20:07:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: only romanian
20:07:40 <pikhq> And there's also English, which is arguably half-Romance. :P
20:07:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, I heard English placed as a germanic language?
20:08:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, most(?) non-isolated languages imported words though
20:08:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: more english words are romance than germanic iirc, but the _most common_ words are germanic
20:08:43 <AnMaster> Swedish is definitely from the germanic family
20:09:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Many of those common words are not, however, native to English.
20:09:10 <AnMaster> but yet we have imported quite a few French words. garage and garderob iirc come from French
20:09:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: 25% of our vocab is from French.
20:09:57 <pikhq> 25% of our vocab is from Latin.
20:10:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, well it isn't as much for Swedish, but there are quite a few things...
20:10:09 <oerjan> pikhq: borrowings from other germanic languages, you mean? (like egg, skirt and such)
20:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember reading that in Welsh, the words for "church", "bridge" and "window" are all from Latin.
20:10:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Old Norse.
20:10:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Thus implying that the ancient Britons did not have these things.
20:10:54 <oerjan> incidentally "sky" means "cloud" not sky in norwegian
20:11:38 <oerjan> sky would be "himmel", which also means heaven dependent on context
20:12:00 <AnMaster> and I would say himeln for the sky in Swedish probably. More natural. Not that "skyn" is archaic
20:12:15 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: "window" ~ "wind-eye"
20:12:17 <pikhq> We also developed quite a few grammar simplifications from Old Norse.
20:12:47 <oerjan> in new norwegian that's still transparent, "vindauge" = "vind" + "auge"
20:12:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, also a simple rule for a/an. I love that in English
20:12:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant: Yeah, but in Welsh it's something like "ffenys", which obviously derives from the Latin "fenestra".
20:13:00 <AnMaster> a LOT easier to learn than French
20:13:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in modern Swedish, window is "fönster"
20:14:16 <Deewiant> It evidently came to Finnish from Russian
20:14:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, yet you haven't updated English yet. If even we dropped "window"/"vindöga" so should you :P
20:14:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't look similar to fönster at all, so I guess it is not connected to that at all
20:15:01 <oerjan> defenestration is a cool word
20:15:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure but I meant where the Russians took it from
20:15:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: We just pile on other influences is all.
20:15:41 <Deewiant> Right, that'd be Proto-Slavic. :-P
20:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Defenestration is one of those words for which I'm dying to find a use.
20:15:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah. Is that like "no one knows for sure"?
20:16:21 <Deewiant> Or "it's so old that we lack the info".
20:16:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what does it mean?
20:16:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: we could use it on you, and you'd be quite likely to be dying, yes
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20:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Though out of a window feels like it should be "exfenestration".
20:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover> According to Wiktionary (Swedish) "fönster" is from Latin too.
20:17:56 <oerjan> well given that it's _through_ the window, should be transfenestration
20:18:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well naturally given de-fenestr-ation
20:19:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently the proto-Germanic people didn't have windows.
20:19:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey what's wrong with wind-eye
20:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but why would it be applied inconsistently if it was in the root of the Germanic languages?
20:20:31 <oerjan> because using latin words is pretentious?
20:20:47 <pikhq> Except in English, where it's done without realising it.
20:21:23 <oerjan> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum auditur.
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20:22:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: erm "pretentious" is obviously latin-derived? admittedly it may not have existed originally
20:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "ostendo" just means "I show", not what it means in English.
20:23:31 <oerjan> well so ostensibly should mean "showably", then...
20:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but it means something like "giving only the outwards appearance of" in English.
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20:24:57 <oerjan> however pretentious means pretending to be better than you are, so that's no so far off... i think
20:25:23 <Sgeo> It's ##gameoflife now?
20:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: What I mean is that the Latin root probably has different connotations to the English word.
20:39:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, I found out one of my rcxes doesn't work.
20:39:32 <AnMaster> so I will have to do with a single one :(
20:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> 1st commandment of troubleshooting: If thy Hardware breaks down, though must Hit it Sharply.
20:41:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't apply to purely surface mounted components I think
20:41:53 <AnMaster> I did check that I got voltage across the battery box
20:42:06 <AnMaster> but yeah I can't do much about the tiny surface mounted components
20:42:11 * Sgeo can't wait to play Gish at the speed it was meant to be played at
20:42:48 <Sgeo> Hm, the links to the games don't include the bundle ID
20:42:58 <Sgeo> So I could point someone to a game and not have it be traced to me >.>
20:43:12 <Deewiant> Sgeo: How old is your machine now? :-P
20:43:15 <Sgeo> Unless referer stuff is used, I guess
20:43:23 <Sgeo> Deewiant, this is, um, 2006 or earlier
20:43:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, though lego is probably rugged when it comes to that
20:43:30 <Sgeo> But far better than the 2000 machine I was on before
20:44:33 <Sgeo> It still ran.. slowly.. on my old machine
20:45:06 <Deewiant> Did you get it from a thrift shop in 2006? :-P
20:47:45 <Deewiant> I mean, any even half-new machine from 2006 /should/ be able to run Gish just fine
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20:58:36 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> According to Wiktionary (Swedish) "fönster" is from Latin too. <-- probably. But indirectly
20:58:59 <AnMaster> I read about it in SAOB (iirc) that it came from Mid-German or something like that
20:59:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but they then imported it from somewhere south
21:00:53 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fenestra#Latin
21:00:57 <Sgeo> Deewiant, it does
21:01:04 <Sgeo> But before, I was on my machine from 2000
21:01:44 <Deewiant> Ah; I was intending to query about the not-at-the-speed-Gish-was-meant-to-be-played machine
21:03:10 <Sgeo> Time to play with Aquaria
21:03:48 <oerjan> aquaria are not to be played with!
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21:04:16 <oerjan> fish are delicate creatures
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21:05:24 <Deewiant> Aquaria was a nice bonus; the only one of those games I hadn't already played
21:06:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: see how well they fare if you break the aquarium
21:07:23 <Phantom_Hoover> That's like saying rhinoceroses are delicate because they die if you drop them in the ocean.
21:07:51 <oerjan> it's true - from a certain point of view
21:08:30 <oerjan> now if it were hippopotami...
21:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "Hippopotamus" derives from Greek, not Latin, and I must go.
21:10:08 <oerjan> so? most greek words get squeezed through latin anyhow
21:10:14 <Deewiant> Today I learned: rhinocerotes are delicate but hippopotamuses aren't
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21:10:38 <oerjan> Deewiant: no one can say #esoteric isn't educational!
21:10:48 <oerjan> well they could, but they would be lying
21:10:50 <ais523> that's its main purpose, isn't it?
21:11:03 <oerjan> that and instilling insanity
21:13:47 <ais523> I'll catch up with it in a bit
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21:23:11 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> You control a blob of tar IIRC. <-- well then gzip it ;P
21:23:40 * oerjan runs after AnMaster and swats him -----###
21:23:42 <AnMaster> ais523, can you tell me how VHDL integer overflow/underflow is handled?
21:24:05 <ais523> STD_LOGIC_VECTORs overflow in the usual 2's complement way, though
21:24:26 <ais523> actual integers are mostly only useful for things like testbenches, as they don't synthesise
21:24:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so for befunge93 in VHDL a subtype like (79 downto 0) won't work? You would need border logic still?
21:24:56 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, if you specify bounds, it might work
21:25:01 <ais523> but that doesn't synthesise /at all/
21:25:15 <ais523> "integer from 79 downto 0" is not a type that exists in hardware
21:25:28 <ais523> at least not without more information as to how to represent it
21:25:35 <AnMaster> ais523, 100% sure? Because... at a lab at university we used an integer subtype with limited range and it did synthesize...
21:26:05 <ais523> I can imagine synthesisers that could manage that
21:26:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc (was a few weeks ago now) it wasn't that specific range
21:26:40 <ais523> it might have been forced to a power of 2
21:26:49 <AnMaster> well it was a power of two iirc
21:27:24 <ais523> integer (255 downto 0) strikes me as pretty similar to std_logic_vector (7 downto 0)
21:27:30 <ais523> and I don't see why you wouldn't use the second
21:27:44 <AnMaster> ais523, can you add two of the latter?
21:27:46 <ais523> you can cast it to an integer whenever you need its value, but now you also have a nice simple representation of it
21:28:01 <ais523> you need to import std_logic_vector arithmetic libraries, but they're standard
21:28:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and increment it? And so on
21:28:29 <ais523> and there'll be code inside the library to explain how to synthesise an adder, etc
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21:28:55 <AnMaster> ais523, which is the fastest "RAM" to implement on a FPGA?
21:29:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about space usage
21:29:15 <ais523> AnMaster: fastest "RAM" is if you go to the manufacturer and ask them for a RAM core
21:29:23 <ais523> those are so basic you can normally get them for free
21:29:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well, SRAM, d-latches, ...
21:29:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I was considering a stack of 2048 items to go with the 25x80 fungespace of this...
21:29:50 <ais523> AnMaster: onboard RAM goes at the rate of 1 per cycle, as normal
21:30:04 <AnMaster> ais523, yep but would that be feasible as on board
21:30:30 <ais523> AFAIR, they're both pretty much equally feasible, you just have different quantities of them
21:30:40 <ais523> onboard RAM takes less chip space as LUT RAM
21:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523, ... well I meant the quantity I mentioned above
21:30:51 <ais523> and they both take one clock cycle to read or right
21:31:06 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you mean they have special ram, not written like latches/flip-flops?
21:31:07 <ais523> 2 KB seems like a bit much for LUT RAM
21:31:10 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they do
21:31:28 <ais523> and, of course, it isn't portable
21:31:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well I meant this to both run in ghdl and in theory be mostly synthisable
21:31:39 <ais523> you need to get the RAM description from the manufacturer
21:31:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so I'm confined to LUT RAM then
21:32:02 <ais523> well, you could write your own synthesis model for some plausible onboard RAM
21:32:17 <ais523> just in terms of arrays of integers or whatever
21:32:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm going to attempt "portable" VHDL + a ghdl wrapper (mapping the signals to console IO and such) which could be replaced for actual synthesis
21:32:55 <ais523> I say, make your "RAM" an entity
21:33:07 <ais523> with one architecture just being LUT RAM, and another being simulated RAM
21:33:15 <ais523> then you can add a third or fourth if you ever need on-chip RAM
21:33:33 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't simulated ram == lut ram?
21:33:47 <ais523> probably run faster in an actual simulation
21:33:57 <ais523> because you'd be manipulating numbers in memory, rather than arrays of bits
21:34:01 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the registers? How should those be handled. I need like x,y,direction,stringmode
21:34:32 <ais523> that'll synthesise into LUT RAM, or possibly something more optimal
21:34:39 <AnMaster> ais523, at what entity level? Or do you suggest I write the whole b93 interpreter in one entity?
21:35:05 <ais523> those are at the level of the main entity; you can pass them as 'arguments' to other entities you use
21:35:16 <ais523> VHDL doesn't have monads, so you have to do it by hand
21:35:49 <ais523> or whatever stupid name VHDL uses for it
21:36:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought you knew VHDL?
21:36:10 <AnMaster> also these would need to be in and out, in various places
21:36:22 <ais523> I do know VHDL, sort of
21:36:30 <AnMaster> I'm scared of ending up driving it in multiple places
21:36:35 <ais523> but normally I get Emacs to do all the details for me
21:37:03 <ais523> AnMaster: try, so long as you have VHDL-mode you'll be pleasantly surprised
21:37:34 <AnMaster> kate has a quite nice VHDL mode too
21:37:54 <AnMaster> it red-underline-bold highlights mismatched end lines
21:38:03 <AnMaster> like end entity somethingelse;
21:38:22 <AnMaster> or if ... case ... end case; end if
21:38:35 <AnMaster> or if ... case ... end if; end case
21:39:12 <ais523> VHDL needs more tool support than Java, really
21:39:13 <AnMaster> ais523, nice VHDL menu but what does all the options do
21:39:20 <ais523> you don't use the menu, normally
21:39:24 <ais523> it triggers as you type
21:39:32 <ais523> e.g., type "entity " and see what happens
21:39:33 <AnMaster> like... compose → wire components?
21:40:19 <AnMaster> hdl Electric Mode: Hide Value Toggle on (non-nil)
21:40:20 <AnMaster> Non-nil enables electrification (automatic template generation).
21:40:42 <AnMaster> ais523, that had be confused for a bit before I read the desc...
21:40:52 <AnMaster> (and realised it was *emacs* electric mode)
21:41:19 <ais523> it's what means I don't have to memorise lots of boilerplate
21:41:41 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean library IEEE; use ieee.std_logic_1164.all;?
21:42:02 <ais523> no, I mean, say the syntax for entity
21:42:07 <ais523> or even a simple for-generate loop
21:42:28 <AnMaster> entity foo is ... end entity foo;
21:42:44 <AnMaster> (I need to learn this, will have exam where I have to show I know it...)
21:44:55 <ais523> AnMaster: not just that, there's all the boilerplate you have to put /inside/ that
21:45:11 <ais523> VHDL has far too much syntax, it goes on for miles and most of it's redundant
21:45:45 <AnMaster> ais523, oh inside that? port(a,b,c: in std_logic; d,e,f: out std_logic); ?
21:45:54 <ais523> yes, that sort of thing
21:46:04 <AnMaster> ais523, which isn't really redundant
21:46:18 <AnMaster> ais523, is there anything except that an the generics stuff you put in the entity?
21:46:28 <ais523> not really, but compare it to C
21:46:45 <ais523> int entity_name(int a, int b, char c, char d);
21:46:57 <ais523> considering how similar things are...
21:47:29 <AnMaster> ais523, but VHDL has functions too iirc?
21:47:56 <AnMaster> stuff like rising_edge() or various conversion routines
21:48:00 <ais523> two sets of primitives, declarative and imperative
21:48:05 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but what are VHDL functions used for?
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21:48:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean <= outside process vs. inside process kind of thing?
21:48:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: on what?
21:48:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover # apt-get update
21:48:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover # apt-get upgrade
21:49:06 <ais523> AnMaster: sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude safe-upgrade
21:49:31 <ais523> I do nowadays; it keeps track of things a bit better than apt-get does
21:49:34 <ais523> due to being higher level
21:49:55 <AnMaster> I should start using dpkg or something
21:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I'm terrified of my system being filled to the brim with pointless packages that were needed when I wanted to experiment with X, which I have since uninstalled.
21:50:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and sudo is annoying. Redirection issues
21:51:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mind my system filling with pointless packages
21:51:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there are logs in topic
21:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Manually uninstalling the 5000 dependencies for whatever is even worse than just leaving them.
21:52:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what has that got to do with apt-get?
21:52:32 <AnMaster> it does track what is installed as dep
21:52:37 <AnMaster> and what is explicitly installed
21:52:58 <fizzie> I do aptitude too; the conflict resolution is better. And I don't feel the pain.
21:53:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well at least it told me "this package is no longer required" in such a situation
21:53:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you do apt-cache at least?
21:54:16 <fizzie> There's "apt-get autoremove" which does the "remove packages that were automatically installed to satisfy dependencies for some package and that are no more needed" task; I don't know if it's automagically invoked sometimes too.
21:54:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it isn't. And shouldn't be
21:54:44 <AnMaster> it tells you however if there are such packages
21:54:54 <AnMaster> but happily it doesn't run it automatically
21:56:02 <ais523> fizzie: there's a command-line option to ask for it to be automagically invoked
21:56:52 <fizzie> And a configuration item you can set.
21:56:52 <AnMaster> you can set it in the config file I bet
21:57:03 <fizzie> APT::Get::AutomaticRemove.
21:57:26 <fizzie> They've been crafty and put that "matic" part in so that it wouldn't match the command/option.
21:57:51 * Phantom_Hoover ponders the reason that The Apprentice uses xylophone music.
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22:09:55 <oerjan> ramble ramble, lurk and shamble
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22:16:28 <oerjan> used to be functional analysis and dynamical systems
22:23:02 <oerjan> if you want to googlestalk my published articles, all of them are collaborations with either Richard Gjerde or Alf Rustad.
22:23:33 <oerjan> (also Johan Aarnes in one three-author paper)
22:25:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, so you don't have a job now?
22:25:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm how do you pay bills and such?
22:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> His father published a paper, but as far as I can tell he's in an isolated network.
22:26:04 <AnMaster> oh wait forgot Norway have social security...
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22:41:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compared with the US, I'm sure it is awesome.
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22:42:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Would you become homeless if you did not have a job? If no, it's awesome compared to the US.
22:43:43 <AnMaster> but it would be harsh conditions
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22:44:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, the amount of money you get is just enough for rent and some food. Nothing more than that.
22:44:29 <AnMaster> no new clothes can be fit in or anything
22:44:38 <pikhq> *Radically* better than the US.
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22:49:00 <pikhq> When unemployment pay ceases in the US, you're... Just kinda fucked.
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23:54:50 * Sgeo was not expecting there to be boss fights in Aquaria
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23:55:49 <oerjan> if you mess with the boss you'll be sleeping with the fishes
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23:56:38 <sdorand2> one would think however that intelligent life appreciates other intelligent life
23:56:51 <sdorand2> though where I fit I truly have no idea
23:57:42 * oerjan gently taps sdorand2's pun detector
23:58:13 <sdorand2> no idea what i've even stumbled across....
23:58:21 <sdorand2> but they're all borderline insane
23:58:34 <sdorand2> depending on one's relativistic philosophies
23:59:12 <oerjan> this channel is about esoteric programming languages, not the other kind of esoterica
23:59:25 <sdorand2> perhaps its all the same thing
00:02:03 <oerjan> Aquaria is a computer game, i think
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00:03:13 <oerjan> i'm afraid this channel doesn't help with _that_
00:04:46 <oerjan> sdorand2: you're comments are rather vague, are you a bot?
00:05:15 <sdorand2> not that i'm aware of but perhaps you are as are all underlying atoms and subatomic particles
00:06:04 <oerjan> we sometimes discuss the simulation argument here
00:06:31 <sdorand2> i went on what i might call a digital archaeology hunt today
00:06:56 <sdorand2> if the world is "real" (in theory)
00:07:24 <sdorand2> i think it might be easy to find out.....
00:07:39 <sdorand2> if one could access ever supercomputer on the planet, every institution, government, etc....
00:07:40 <oerjan> well if everything is a simulation, then there doesn't necessarily exist anything _less_ real than this world
00:07:50 <sdorand2> every code.... ISO, protocol, language, etc
00:08:16 <sdorand2> though this of course would require insane computing power....
00:09:34 <sdorand2> perhaps there are gateways between worlds....
00:09:44 <sdorand2> between levels of complexity....
00:10:03 <sdorand2> perhaps there are 231 gateways
00:10:13 <sdorand2> perhaps only 211 per wikipedia
00:10:32 <oerjan> these aren't actually new ideas - science fiction and fantasy writes about such
00:10:52 <sdorand2> i've also considered the possibility of those worlds...
00:10:57 <sdorand2> and how they work at subatomic levels
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00:11:14 <sdorand2> and also from a psychological point of view from an individual to a civilization....
00:11:32 <sdorand2> utlimately it all seems to have some common laws..... at least as far as "human" minds are concerned
00:11:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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00:12:06 <sdorand2> but perhaps human experience also exists in parallel with other dimensions that they can not appreciate unless they have access to them
00:12:34 <oerjan> that _could_ be just a lack of imagination, though
00:12:46 <sdorand2> and perhaps it all boils down to code.... fine structured infinite constants
00:14:38 <sdorand2> one would think however that at some point the notion of "meaning" becomes watered down...
00:14:52 <sdorand2> irregardless of universe, multiverse, timeline, dimension, etc
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00:24:09 <sdorand2> what's interesting is a few domains on the internet that do not appear to have any whois information associated with them
00:25:36 <sdorand2> i'm not sure if someone/thing is trying to teach me to code/uncode, count, decompile the universe, compile the universe, perfect the universe, hack the universe, or what
00:28:38 <oerjan> there are philosophies that say words are a deceptive way of understanding the world
00:29:32 <sdorand2> sometimes i think people talk too much
00:29:43 <sdorand2> yip yip yip yip.... about nothing...
00:30:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:30:55 <sdorand2> Tell Stephen Wolfram and George Lucas I said hi
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00:31:11 <oerjan> heh i'd be surprised if they come here
00:32:05 <sdorand2> who is on the wire of my mind?
00:32:38 <oerjan> if i am, i don't know it
00:32:44 <sdorand2> who is dumping, analyzing, extrapolating, and meme hashing my thought processes?
00:33:14 <sdorand2> who is modifying the angles by which my dna is assembled?
00:33:45 <sdorand2> is it not possible to model billions upon billions of human populations across a multitude of various timelines?
00:34:09 <sdorand2> with the smallest differences in every possible structure?
00:35:46 <oerjan> only if one has no ethics
00:38:54 <sdorand2> now that is an interesting point....
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00:39:24 <sdorand2> if this is in fact a machine, and that is what is being done....
00:39:31 <sdorand2> then one could question the ethics of our creators....
00:39:58 <sdorand2> if they are part of the same construct and it is all interconnected.... perhaps no one is ultimately to blame....
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00:40:26 <sdorand2> i have considered the possibilities...
00:40:38 <sdorand2> and there are certainly a multitude of philosophical concerns...
00:41:05 <sdorand2> yet when one acts within life, can not the butterfly effect end up somehow causing the same issues eventually?
00:41:53 <sdorand2> i think continuance of existence is a good thing
00:42:03 <sdorand2> however, when we have such limited knowledge.....
00:42:10 <sdorand2> how can anyone truly know what they are doing?
00:42:36 <sdorand2> unless one has access to a higher power of guidance somehow....
00:43:06 <sdorand2> and what if ultimately good and evil are simply part of the same construct and necessary for the existence of everything?
00:43:30 <sdorand2> I would think however that things should be weighted towards the good
00:43:43 <sdorand2> or perhaps there is megaversal utopia
00:43:56 <sdorand2> which in essence is a boat in a bottle.....
00:44:12 <sdorand2> and the doors are all shut behind them on the way into the final utopia...
00:44:19 <sdorand2> no one might ever possibly be able to know...
00:44:45 <sdorand2> i fancy the kabbalah as a super computing construct
00:45:00 <sdorand2> perhaps entities fall into or are weighted towards the various "buckets"
00:45:22 <sdorand2> perhaps some entities fit in all of the "buckets" in a even and distributed manner....
00:50:12 <pikhq> Is this here sdorand2 an esoteric programmer or just into esotericism? It's actually hard to tell.
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00:51:04 <sdorand2> funny thing is I can't code for shit, failed calculus at least three times...
00:51:28 <sdorand2> but perhaps my biology is such that i see things in the fashion that I do...
00:51:42 <sdorand2> not that I can't improve myself...
00:51:59 <sdorand2> but that's a hard thing to debate given the lack of full knowledge..
00:52:14 <sdorand2> considering I can barely write *decent* solid code....
00:52:43 <sdorand2> programming in esoteric languages is likely not my cup of tea..... could I understand it and do so.... perhaps...
00:53:21 <sdorand2> but it is interesting how infinitary lambda calculus parallels various indian and buddhist texts
00:53:34 <sdorand2> and its all essentially a code..... extrapolated over time and space....
00:53:49 <sdorand2> which was somehow seeded and/or multiseeded throughout the universe or megaverse...
00:53:58 <sdorand2> the extents of the data however is quite horrific
00:56:31 <sdorand2> i pretty much just debugged google, youtube and wikipedia
00:56:32 <pikhq> How much did you code during your CS degree?
00:58:52 <sdorand2> books that seem to exist just as I'm "accessing them"
01:00:02 <sdorand2> some google antifraud company (can't think of the name right now)
01:03:31 <pikhq> Well, no wonder you did so poorly.
01:04:22 <sdorand2> and if its ALL CODED..... (mostly) then what?
01:04:45 <sdorand2> if the code is in the individual atoms and the extents of ALL OF IT have basically been found.... then what?
01:05:29 <sdorand2> I do however have some handwritten theories on security
01:05:53 <sdorand2> but whether they are original or simply another part of the code shaking the bits out into reality in some fashion is beyond me
01:05:59 <sdorand2> and perhaps they already exist
01:08:30 <sdorand2> your assertion of my poor performance is unfounded
01:09:11 <sdorand2> but perhaps you have access to constructs deeper than I
01:11:17 <sdorand2> infinitary and omega logic is interesting
01:11:36 <sdorand2> as are Malament-Hogarth spacetimes...
01:11:54 <sdorand2> perhaps there are even Quantum relativistic infinitary spacetime theories
01:15:11 <sdorand2> when do we increase the quantum relativistic var metalove?
01:16:37 <pikhq> ... Seriously man WTF?
01:17:26 <pikhq> Would that I could.
01:19:00 <sdorand2> perhaps the esoteric languages I perceive transcend those you are even aware of
01:19:15 <sdorand2> or perhaps I should just go and watch cartoons and drink a beer
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01:23:07 <sdorand2> what kind of AI is hooked up to "." on the internet?
01:23:07 -!- cheater2 has joined.
01:23:07 <sdorand2> or perhaps it is an AI that comes in wireless to the heads of all of humanity
01:23:07 <sdorand2> Tech Email:shadowarts@nonlogic.org
01:23:07 <sdorand2> Safari can’t open the page “http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/” because Safari can’t connect to the server “pikhq.nonlogic.org”.
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01:25:33 <sdorand2> is conficker a virus to be used for global awakening?
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02:23:33 <coppro> today was amusing in here
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02:40:02 <oerjan> I CAN'T HEAR YOU, TALK LOUDER
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03:27:01 <oerjan> well i try to balance it out by using none
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03:45:24 <coppro> Mathnerd314: it should involve cutting of something
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10:22:21 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the BBC: "Facebook has more than 400 million users sharing 25 billion things a month"
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10:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Nice to know that the BBC are upholding their high statistical standards.
10:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And I *really* need to stop using that script that changes random words to "your mum".
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10:37:14 <cheater2> why do people wake me up in the morning
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12:07:28 <oerjan> 02:37:14 <cheater2> why do people wake me up in the morning
12:07:28 <oerjan> 02:37:17 <cheater2> what have i done to them
12:07:46 <oerjan> maybe you were genghis khan in a previous life.
12:07:58 <cheater2> maybe i... STILL AM!!!! AHAHGAHGHAGH
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14:58:16 <Zuu> Did i mention i 'finished' my first 'esoteric' prog lang ?
15:00:01 <Zuu> I cant decide on what seems to be a very simple syntactical decision
15:00:42 <Zuu> basically, i have functions that return a value.. what i have now is: ! "return value"
15:01:06 <Zuu> doesnt feel right, i started out with: -> "return value"
15:01:48 <Zuu> That didnt feel right either, both seem annoying to write, and they doesnt blend in well :/
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15:09:21 <AnMaster> assuming that can be interpreted as "pointing out" of a function
15:09:28 <AnMaster> depends on the rest of the syntax of course
15:10:14 <AnMaster> in something like a "classical" syntax (think, C, LISP, ...) it could be interpreted that way. But of course in some esolangs that metaphor makes no sense
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15:17:33 <Zuu> AnMaster: good suggestion indeed, but as you mention, i think it will be confusing based on the other syntax i have :)
15:19:35 <Zuu> Actually it might be a quite silly question of me, since i dont say anything about the other syntax. Stupid me... I will make a description of the language soon, maybe then, there will be some qualified suggestions :P
15:20:37 * Zuu just needs to fix some implementation details, to prevent stack overflow on very small programs
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17:13:44 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, you missed hilarity on Google I/O
17:14:01 <Sgeo_> Earlier, someone demoed using the microphone to make a call
17:14:25 <Sgeo_> Then, when it came time to try playing music, ... the call was still running
17:18:54 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/GoogleDevelopers
17:18:58 <Sgeo_> It's about Android today
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19:23:40 <fizzie> Incidentally! Do you happen to be aware of any JVM bytecode similarity measures? I have these six provided example programs, 44 student submissions, and approximately one hour of time to waste, so manual inspection is not feasible. (I did find few links with Google, but I don't think I saw anything very finished.)
19:26:50 <fizzie> I've ran them all, but what I want is to find out if anyone of them has ripped most of their code from one of the provided examples.
19:27:48 <fizzie> Eh, I guess I could diff, but I'd like a bit more sensible similarity measure. Something that's not defeated by changing variable names and newline placement.
19:28:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the code with a hex editor and check for obvious similarities?
19:28:39 <impomatic> I've connected via telnet to a HP3000 system. Does anyone know how I can download a file?
19:29:07 <Phantom_Hoover> If my fellow students in my computing class could rip off example programs I'd hold much more respect for them than I do now...
19:29:16 <fizzie> Possibly I could ran some diffs on the JVM disassembly. (I think that was approximately what one of the google-hits was doing.)
19:31:51 <Deewiant> Contact Brenda Baker, bsb@bell-labs.com, for information about licensing the software from Lucent Technologies.
19:34:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: How does that help me notice similarities?
19:34:52 <Deewiant> It's from the paper "Deducing Similarities in Java Sources from Bytecodes"
19:35:07 <fizzie> Ah. The title sounds somewhat familiar.
19:35:26 <Deewiant> It's four of the top ten results when I googled it
19:35:28 <fizzie> I need these ready by tomorrow. I hope Brenda's awake.
19:37:34 <fizzie> Well, okay, this one hasn't changed the variable names. The newline placement is changed, however.
19:38:04 <fizzie> (And for some reason there are spurious parentheses here and there.)
19:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> In my computing class, you aren't even taught to indent your code...
19:44:42 <fizzie> It's a bit.. dubious to return to me code I've written myself. On the other hand, (a) this is not really a programming course, (b) using some from-the-web example code has been traditionally allowed, (c) the person has added sensible comments in my completely uncommented code, and (d) the report describes quite well what it's all about.
19:44:55 <fizzie> So I guess I'll have to let it slide. It just feels somehow sleazy still.
19:48:57 <fizzie> Speaking of copying, two out of four of the participants so far have copied the minimax pseudocode directly from the Wikipedia article, without citing it. (One of those two mentions the article in the "references" section; the other does not have a "references" section.)
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20:05:50 * oerjan finds those "Compensation for scam victims" spams slightly amusing
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20:06:28 <oerjan> at least they have the right intended target audience, yessir
20:09:03 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I demand that something happen!
20:09:10 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
20:10:07 <oerjan> <sdorand2> so i use too many what?
20:11:01 * oerjan wasn't the one who claimed that, anyhow
20:14:50 <fizzie> Isn't it usually "she"?
20:16:56 <oerjan> fizzie: we are quite liberal here
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21:00:45 <impomatic> Grrr... I've spent the last two hours trying to download a file :-(
21:02:23 <Deewiant> Do, or do not. There is no try.
21:06:39 <oerjan> impomatic: you mentioned something about telnet, so i assume this server does not have ssh?
21:07:27 <impomatic> Not sure. I just can't figure the command to download it. Or even how to navigate to the file.
21:07:50 <oerjan> i don't recall telnet having a file download command anyway
21:07:58 <oerjan> um you cannot _find_ the file?
21:08:11 <oerjan> (i may just not know of it)
21:09:49 <oerjan> if the server has ssh, then my suggestion would be to use scp from your client machine
21:10:16 <impomatic> telnet:198.212.189.111 login = "HELLO USER.CSLXL" then navigate through the menus 1, 9, 6, 6
21:10:30 <impomatic> That's the package I want to download. However I can't view it and I can't find the file when I start the shell
21:10:50 <impomatic> The machine is a HP3000 running MPE
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21:12:12 <Deewiant> I don't think my terminal likes the menus
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21:15:33 <Deewiant> impomatic: What can be done after 1,9,6,6
21:16:00 <Deewiant> I can make out little of the screen, it's not compatible with my terminal
21:16:04 <impomatic> MPE enters the shell, but I can't navigate to the files.
21:16:57 <Deewiant> "You may download programs using Minisoft or Reflection. Some configuration may be needed." :-P
21:25:49 <impomatic> I completely killed my terminal program. I can't even reinstall it :-(
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21:56:22 <oerjan> i'm sure there are some slipups there
21:57:10 <oerjan> but sometimes you _can_ leave out the +c, like if you need just one antiderivative
21:57:25 <oerjan> and it doesn't have to be general
21:58:01 <oerjan> (and one such case is when you use it immediately to calculate a definite integral)
21:59:03 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHZzObQUgE8
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22:11:08 <Sgeo_> I understand the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTv6fFLVi4Q much better
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00:20:49 <pikhq> Playing with Brainfuck again makes me realise how very silly some of the Brainfuck code out there is...
00:21:29 <pikhq> That's in a *lot* of Brainfuck code.
00:22:00 <Sgeo_> By the same person/tool?
00:22:16 <pikhq> No. Just all over the place.
00:22:23 <pikhq> It was even in some version of awib...
00:22:45 <coppro> maybe to make things look pretty
00:22:52 <coppro> (though really, Piet is better for that)
00:23:41 <pikhq> Actually. It's technically *still* in awib.
00:23:45 <Sgeo_> Does it happen to be ][-] by any chance?
00:24:10 <Sgeo_> I bet a lot of people just know [-] to 0 a cell and do it even without realizing the cell is cleared
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00:28:44 <pikhq_> LostKng loses 2105 characters after a simple dead-code eliminiation pass.
00:28:48 <oerjan> ][insert comment here]
00:29:31 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, my Haskell brainfuck interpreter has something that does that
00:30:05 <pikhq_> I modified an interpreter's parser into doing that. :P
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02:13:27 <pikhq_> while(1)if(rand())drop(freenode);
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02:29:13 <uorygl> Doesn't if(rand()) almost always go to the "then" branch?
02:31:00 <pikhq> Note how often I'm being dropped.
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03:51:39 <Gracenotes> ... and trying to come up with interesting places I can apply it
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12:03:21 <Gracenotes> if befunge used a queue instead of a stack: http://www.kongregate.com/games/PleasingFungus/manufactoria
12:03:49 <Gracenotes> I've been playing this for 3.5 hours straight :/
12:04:14 <Gracenotes> (and also if it had more limited operations etc.)
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12:13:57 <fizzie> Gah, you horrible horrible person. I have a stack of reports to grade, I can't get stuck in some Flash game now.
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12:39:33 <Gracenotes> fizzie: also uses queue automata, which are equivalent in power to turing machines but less expressive
12:39:50 <Gracenotes> so less expressive it can be painful to fit it in the damn grid :/
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12:47:58 <fizzie> It didn't help, I'm still twiddling the game.
12:48:12 <fizzie> I only have three more reports to go, though.
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13:12:53 <Gracenotes> oh, meh. I don't have enough patience to do these in a turing machine, let alone the queue automata we're forced to use
13:13:15 <Gracenotes> I shall come back another time... that was a fun 4.5 hours though, til it got tedius
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13:17:31 <fizzie> I did those up to and including the first six-level column in the "map" (plus a one from the second), but now I really need to read those reports.
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13:44:05 <lifthras1ir> Gracenotes: a lot better than other programming games i found in Kongregate. good.
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14:28:01 <Sgeo_> How does it compare with RoboZZle?
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16:56:29 <AnMaster> back for a very short period of time only
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18:11:18 <Sgego> What time does he usually show up on Friday?
18:11:22 <Sgego> And did you get my memo?
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18:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Man was not meant to adapt some things to musical theatre.
18:42:47 <Sgego> Igors did not believe in "Forbidden Knowledge" and "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" but obviously there were /some/ things a man was not meant to know, such as what it felt like to have every single particle of your body sucked into a little hole, and that seemed to be one of the options available in the imediate future.
18:42:56 <Sgego> --Terry Pratchett, Theif of Time
18:49:27 <Sgego> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Station V3's website is down!
18:49:34 <Sgego> erm, the comic site
18:49:52 <Sgego> If Station V3 actually had a website, it would probably suck me into a dimensional portal or something
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19:04:25 <fizzie> There's that nice line in Thief of Time I've quoted earlier too.
19:04:32 <fizzie> "And never, ever Ask Questions. Admittedly, Igor knew, that meant never ask BIG questions. 'Would thur like a cup of tea around now?' was fine, but 'What do you need a hundred virginth for?' or 'Where do you ecthpect me to find a brain at thith time of night?' was not. An Igor stood for loyal, dependable, discreet service with a smile, or at least a sort of lopsided grin, or possibly just a curved scar in the right place."
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19:32:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: What kind of a grading system is 3/5?
19:34:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's actually 0/3/5, and those are just arbitrary numbers to encode the "fail", "no change to course grade", "increment course grade by one" semantics.
19:35:11 <Deewiant> Using numbers like that seems strange to me :-P
19:35:28 <fizzie> Well, perhaps. I've kept it from previous years.
19:35:41 <fizzie> There's some sort of official way that sort of thing is represented in the OSR, but I can't remember what it is.
19:35:48 <fizzie> It's possible that it should be 0/1/2 instead.
19:36:08 <Deewiant> If you had to use numbers I'd use 0/1/2, but if not I'd use something like F/P/P+
19:37:17 <fizzie> That should be g=0/g/g++ then, and the increment is also clamped.
19:37:37 <fizzie> It's 0/3/5 because (of course) the normal 0...5 scale, but admittedly it's a bit weird to use just 3 and 5 there.
19:38:56 <fizzie> Maybe I could use some Unicode characters. ☹/☺/☻, maybe.
19:39:30 <Deewiant> Now if only those were properly visible without large font sizes
19:39:36 <fizzie> Gah, I got two bounces from the Noppa announcement this time.
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19:40:03 <fizzie> One "forwarded more than maximum times" and one "over quota".
19:41:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Is ☠/♡/☆ more readable? The skull-and-crossbones might not be.
19:42:17 <Deewiant> Well, in my current configuration (Windows / PuTTY / DejaVu Sans Mono 10pt) it's better but not much
19:42:29 <fizzie> What if I fill those two? ♥/★, I mean.
19:43:01 <fizzie> (I doubt the OSR system can take that.)
19:43:12 <Deewiant> Still better; pasting it into Firefox's address bar all three are actually legible :-)
20:02:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's about time someone invented a decent language that can be compiled into Life.
20:14:54 <pikhq> The only think preventing it is a decent way of doing arrays. :P
20:15:13 <Sgego> When does alise normally show up here?
20:15:41 <pikhq> Bit before now, or at the beginning of next waking.
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21:41:49 <oerjan> 10:11:18 <Sgego> What time does he usually show up on Friday?
21:41:59 <oerjan> lately, he doesn't seem to show up before saturday
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22:20:07 <pikhq_> Because your mother's a whore.
22:21:17 <impomatic> Does anyone recognise this language? It looks like odd Pascal to me: http://corewar.co.uk/droid/droidsrc.txt
22:30:15 <Zuu> it sort of looks like basic to me, if only it wasnt ebcause it has single quotes all over, which i believe starts comments in Basic
22:30:41 <impomatic> I've never seen a basic like it. It's also a bit weird for Pascal or Algol
22:30:47 <oerjan> it looks much closer to ALGOL than BASIC, although i don't really know ALGOL
22:31:06 <oerjan> BASIC uses = for assignment, not :=
22:33:04 <oerjan> hm wait uses MOVE := , not just :=
22:35:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's from the same overall family as Pascal, i.e. stuff with Alogoly syntax.
22:36:15 <oerjan> the types are put _before_ the variables, which means it's not pascal or its direct descendants
22:36:30 <oerjan> while ALGOL also does this
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22:40:04 <oerjan> impomatic: oh did you get this from that HP / MPE thing? a google search for some of the keywords led me to that
22:40:23 <oerjan> http://www.adager.com/VeSoft/SystemTables.html very similar language
22:41:04 <oerjan> yes that must be the same one
22:43:02 <oerjan> ah! "Note that although all the examples in this paper are given in SPL,"
22:44:41 <oerjan> impomatic: http://www.robelle.com/smugbook/spl.html
22:46:14 <Zuu> I was betting more on fortran
22:46:26 * oerjan wonders why it says FOR is discouraged
22:48:10 <oerjan> impomatic: in that last page
22:52:01 <Zuu> No cookies FOR you
22:53:44 <Zuu> Now im bored, since the name of this language have been determined
22:53:56 <Zuu> I had so much fun for 10 minutes :P
22:54:08 <pikhq> Now implement it efficiently.
22:54:36 <pikhq> Incidentally. http://sprunge.us/YYca More Brainfuck compilation.
22:54:48 <pikhq> And why yes, it *does* leak memory. :P
22:54:58 <Zuu> actually, for 20 minutes ago, i was implementing a vm for my own language
22:56:02 <Zuu> Im sure i'll soon have fun tracing memory leaks for my own :P
22:56:29 * pikhq goes to fix said leaks
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22:58:13 <Zuu> It is impressive how someone managed to introduce memory leaks into something that basically only needs to keep track of a single allocation
23:00:51 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ECMP
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23:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The UCC is cool, but from what I can tell the language it uses *sucks*.
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23:39:27 <Zuu> What is a UCC ?
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23:43:17 <AnMaster> ais523, know anything about software RAID under linux?
23:43:45 <AnMaster> fizzie and/or Deewiant: there?
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23:51:10 <fizzie> I am, but pretty busy.
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00:07:07 <oerjan> s/homepage/start page/
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00:26:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, do you know anything about software raid under linux
00:29:52 <fizzie> I use it, but I'm very much not a specialist.
00:32:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, or is it some build in RAID on drive? As in, setup during bios
00:32:26 <AnMaster> I'm wondering if I should use it
00:32:33 <AnMaster> don't know how much "hardware" it is
00:32:43 <AnMaster> I suspect not a lot since iirc it needs special windows drivers
00:32:58 <AnMaster> but perhaps it does something in hardware...
00:33:00 <fizzie> From what I hear, the Linux software raid usually works better. (Unless you need Windows compatibility.)
00:33:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't need windows at all :)
00:33:33 <fizzie> But there *are* some motherboard with real RAID controllers integrated, it's just that most are not.
00:33:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, but can I do RAID apart from on a tiny bit of the disk? it seems pointless to do RAID on the swap
00:34:28 <fizzie> That's close to what I have, though I think the RAID bit is by someone else; I think it's pretty softwarey thing.
00:34:46 <fizzie> Er, or "had"; it seems I've switched motherboards at some point.
00:35:43 <fizzie> And RAID on swap is not pointless, for stability reasons; you don't want a disk crash to potentially kill your system when it takes swapped-out programs with it.
00:35:59 <AnMaster> strange... I have two 1 TB devices. Same model. Same speed. SMART extended polling time differs (171 minutes vs. 167 minutes)
00:36:01 <fizzie> I don't have hot-swap-capable anything, though, so I didn't bother with swap-on-raid either.
00:36:13 <AnMaster> that is the "recommended" estimate
00:36:53 <fizzie> But yes, you can partition the disks however you want, and then select (preferrably same-sized) partitions to build a raid array from.
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00:37:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you could do RAID 1 on everything except swap (and do RAID 0 on that :D)
00:37:42 <fizzie> Right, though you don't need RAID 0 on swap, you can just make two separate swap devices. The kernel's supposed to be smart enough to utilize them in a stripingy way.
00:37:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you handle /boot? Do you need an initramfs if / is on RAID 1?
00:38:43 <fizzie> Probably, though it's been possible to build raid support as non-modules and have the kernel automagically bring the / array up at boot-time.
00:39:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would prefer to avoid initramfs
00:39:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, but yeah how do you handle /boot?
00:39:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: On a RAID-1, all you need to do is install the bootloader into each individual drive's MBR if you want to be able to boot off of any arbitrary drive.
00:40:01 <fizzie> Currently I don't, since my system stuff (/boot, /, /usr, /var) is on that non-RAID SSD (I don't really have money for 2*SSD here...) and I just regularly back it up to the terabyte-or-so /home.
00:40:21 <pikhq> Since grub doesn't *write* anything, it'll just see a fairly normal partition for /boot.
00:40:30 <fizzie> But yes, grub can boot from a /boot that's on a raid-1 array.
00:40:49 <fizzie> It does write things if you do "savedefault", I think there was some sort of a potential issue for that.
00:41:03 <AnMaster> hm will have to stop using savedefault then
00:41:08 <pikhq> Yeah, there's potential issues with that...
00:41:39 <AnMaster> still what about /? And avoiding initramfs that is
00:41:42 <pikhq> Unless it saves in the MBR, that'll just break, and if it does save in the MBR, then it won't propogate to other drives.
00:41:53 <AnMaster> plus I want to do lvm2 for everything except /
00:42:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, it saves in a file in /boot, which is created to have a fixed size
00:42:32 <AnMaster> so it won't have to change the file size
00:42:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then it'll break a RAID-1.
00:42:53 <fizzie> There's a MBR-saving patch, though.
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00:43:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't help for EFI (not that I have that)
00:43:39 <fizzie> For EFI, I'm sure you can prepare an even nicer place for storing that.
00:44:02 <fizzie> Possibly that boot-loader storage-place GRUB wants on EFI disks, or however it worked, can't recall.
00:44:15 <fizzie> Still won't propagate to the other drive(s), though.
00:45:07 <fizzie> I'm not sure how non-module raid-support brings up the / array nowadays. It might be that it Just Works (tm).
00:45:20 <fizzie> LVM on top of the raid is of course no problem, I do that too.
00:46:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did that non-module raid stuff use to work?
00:47:17 * AnMaster imagines RAID on LVM on dmcrypt on RAID on LVM
00:47:54 <pikhq> fizzie: GRUB1 does not handle EFI.
00:48:02 <pikhq> And GRUB2 handles RAID and LVM natively.
00:48:13 <fizzie> IIRC (and this might be wrong), there was some sort of kludge that it sniffed likely/listed-as-an-argument device partitions for RAID array metadata blobs, and brought easily assemblable stuff up.
00:49:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: From mdadm --auto-detect, which starts kernel auto-detected arrays: "This can only work if md is compiled into the kernel - not if it is a module. Arrays can be auto-detected by the kernel if all the components are in primary MS-DOS partitions with partition type FD."
00:49:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Linux RAID partitions have their own partition type. And those partitions have metadata on them.
00:49:34 <fizzie> Also "not recommended for new installations -- using mdadm to detect and assemble -- possibly in an initrd -- more flexible and should be preferred" and so on and so on.
00:50:04 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, I know that.
00:50:23 <AnMaster> I'm proud my desktop manages without it
00:50:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: initramfs is a bit nicer.
00:51:00 <pikhq> initrd loads a filesystem into /dev/ram0 and mounts it.
00:51:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, it makes a difference in boot time, I measured stock kernel and custom kernel
00:51:13 <pikhq> initramfs unpacks a cpio into a tmpfs that's mounted on root.
00:51:24 <AnMaster> stock kernel had only the modules needed on the actual initramfs
00:51:59 <pikhq> Also, initramfs always exists on Linux 2.6.
00:52:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway it might be supported but if you don't use it?
00:52:57 <pikhq> Then there will still be one.
00:53:09 <pikhq> There is one compiled in.
00:53:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, a dummy one provided by the kernel?
00:53:22 <pikhq> Not much by default.
00:53:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the files for it in the kernel source?
01:10:45 <AnMaster> I just realised harddrives have a realtime clock...
01:11:04 <AnMaster> to be able to put into the SMART data the time of the event
01:11:36 <AnMaster> well might not technically be a realtime clock
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01:59:23 <uorygl> "Thanks to a millennium of meticulous record-keeping, Icelanders are a genetically perfect people."
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07:25:10 <Gregor> So I ran into a surprisingly ridiculous problem today.
07:25:18 <Gregor> I wanted to benchmark a browser's /rendering/ performance.
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07:25:48 <Gregor> To that end, I was going to render a bunch of random stuff from JS in a loop, using setTimeout(..., 0) to yield to the browser so it would actually render.
07:26:09 <Gregor> However, the event loop in every major browser seems to be timer-based, not truly event based.
07:26:28 <Gregor> So on e.g. Firefox, that just ends up rendering something once every 10ms.
07:26:51 <Gregor> As far as I can tell, there is no way (from JavaScript) to render something, then immediately come back to JS.
07:32:41 * Sgeo_ really, really likes Tremulous's AFD prank
07:36:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can deduce any far-reaching conclusions about the browser's internals from that; it may be just that setTimeout(..., N) even for N=0 always uses a timer of that resolution, and doesn't just post a do-some-JS event.
07:37:08 <Gregor> I actually tried various alternatives to setTimeout.
07:37:18 <Gregor> Generating DOM elements that create onload events that fire back to my JS, etc.
07:37:32 <Gregor> All had the same delay.
07:40:57 <fizzie> Did you happen to test with Opera? One of its dev pages said it renders stuff even during the JS event dispatch, while FF and others postpone it until you get out of JS stuff. (Anyhow, it's still very unpredictable and browser-dependent.)
07:41:14 <Gregor> I didn't try with Opera. FF, Chrome, IE.
07:41:37 <Gregor> Anyway, it's all very depressing for people who actually want to measure rendering performance :P
07:45:18 <fizzie> There was that one "canvas-rendering filters and show the FPS rate" benchmark floating around, you could try to see how that was done. Although it might use some canvas-specific trick. (Or just not care about a 10ms diff.)
07:48:48 <augur> Gregor! fizzie! Sgeo_! :D
07:49:14 <Sgeo_> With a u instead of a second a and an extra u!
07:49:38 <augur> i have a logic/computing challenge for anyone who's interested :)
07:49:46 <Gregor> Go listen to http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-wipp3.ogg :P
07:50:43 <augur> Gregor: did you write this?
07:50:54 <Gregor> Yes, hence why it's on my web page :P
07:51:06 <augur> well you mightve just recorded your performance
07:51:15 <augur> you should go easy on the chords tho
07:51:36 <Gregor> "Go easy on the chords"
07:51:43 <Gregor> I have no idea what to make of that :P
07:51:54 <augur> well, in the first minute and a half or so
07:52:04 <augur> there are these times when you play chords
07:52:08 <Gregor> Yeah, so "the section before everything changes" :P
07:52:11 <augur> not arpegiated or anything, proper chords
07:52:28 <augur> you emphasized the chords more than the rest, if only slightly
07:52:34 <augur> you should reverse that
07:52:43 <Gregor> OK, now I understand your meaning.
07:53:10 <augur> and you should extend the first part, because stylistically it makes wonderful melancholy jazz
07:53:49 <Gregor> It's repeated thrice, it's sort of the refrain from the storm that is the rest of the piece.
07:54:17 <augur> you should write another piece that plays up those themes as its entirety
07:54:31 <Gregor> This piece is a work in progress, so you never know :P
07:54:32 <augur> it evoked much bladerunnerness for me
07:54:41 <Gregor> The end, for example, I will probably scrap entirely >_>
07:55:01 <augur> it needs to be more coherent too, btw.
07:55:16 <augur> like i said, the refrain is a bit jazzy
07:55:29 <augur> but the rest is decidedly classical
07:55:51 <Gregor> And ... there's a problem with that? I mean, that's straight-up intentional ...
07:56:06 <augur> well, its just a bit disjointed, i feel
07:56:27 <augur> for me, style is very closely associated with mood, and i cant get into this piece because it has no mood
07:56:43 <augur> it feels like a jumble of moods
07:56:48 <augur> which is not itself a mood.
07:57:23 <augur> if you were aiming for disorientation, or tumultuous psychology, or whatever, for me this doesnt capture it
07:57:25 <Gregor> See, that to me is amusing, because the somewhat chaotic jumps back and forth between styles or moods is /exactly/ what I was going for X-D
07:57:40 <augur> because those are moods in and of themselves
07:57:46 <augur> not composed of the use of other moods
07:58:09 <augur> bouncing back and forth from cheerful to sombre doesnt create a "bipolar" mood
07:58:16 <augur> its simply two moods
07:59:03 <Gregor> I don't think "bipolar" is an accurate description of what I was aiming for either :P
07:59:16 <augur> it was merely an example
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08:03:01 <augur> im not saying that a chaotic mood is easy to come up with on its own terms, mind you
08:04:10 <augur> also, im fairly certain there is a blade runner song that you're unintentionally citing in this piece
08:04:19 <augur> no, sorry, not blade runner
08:04:27 <Gregor> I've never seen that ... movie? I'm pretty sure that was a movie, right :P
08:04:58 <augur> it the song Clubbed2Death from the Matrix.
08:05:11 <augur> it has a piano interlude
08:05:23 <augur> and your piece is remeniscent of that
08:07:31 <augur> actually i think its not an interlude but an outro of sorts
08:07:58 * pikhq listens to Opus 13, WIP3
08:08:50 <Gregor> Hmmm ... not hearing it, but maybe I have no perspective.
08:09:05 <augur> its not a direct quote
08:09:08 <augur> its just an evocation
08:09:40 <Gregor> OK, I think I get your connection then.
08:09:52 <Gregor> I also feel I didn't lift anything, inadvertantly or otherwise :P
08:10:17 <augur> its not lifting, its just evocation
08:10:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Not bad so far.
08:10:44 <augur> there are some two or three note progressions here or there that are similar across the pieces
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08:12:21 <Gregor> Ack, I need to sleep >_>
08:12:32 <Gregor> Stupid having to wake up while the clock reads AM.
08:15:19 <pikhq> Gregor: My only complaint so far is that it feels *kinda* like you've got two seperate pieces going on here.
08:15:39 <Gregor> So, roughly the same as augur's complaint.
08:16:01 <augur> you should try to find some historical pieces that convey chaos and disarray
08:16:11 <Gregor> Which I find unfortunate because A) that's pretty much what I was going for and B) if everybody's complaining about it then that means I did a terrible job at making it work :P
08:16:14 <augur> without combining stylistically different components in the way you did
08:16:32 <augur> again, moods are not compositional
08:16:40 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Rather than feeling more like a single piece that switches between calm and chaos.
08:16:43 <augur> you cannot take two moods, put them together, and get a third mood
08:16:55 <augur> you just get the two moods.
08:17:06 <augur> there is no beat frequency
08:17:08 <Gregor> augur: Yes, we all understand your calculus of moods at this point :P
08:17:21 <augur> oh if only it were so advanced as to be a calculus!
08:17:41 <pikhq> augur: The term "calculus" is much more general than you think. :)
08:17:57 <augur> im a formalist, remember
08:18:04 * pikhq still finds it amusing that the calculus of derivatives & integrals gets called just "calculus"
08:18:25 <augur> its the first calculus people are introduced to
08:18:33 <augur> probably the only one ever called a calculus
08:18:43 <Gregor> They should bring the lambda calculus to middle school.
08:18:48 <pikhq> *cough*lambda calculus*cough*
08:18:52 <augur> so its entirely predictable that it would be called just calculus
08:19:55 <Gregor> Lesse whether calculus gives a disambiguation page or the calculus of derivatives and integrals with a "for general calculi, see Calculus (disambiguation)"
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09:13:03 <alise> When was the last time Phantom_Hoover was here?
09:19:25 <augur> i havent spoken to soupdragon since her banning but according to her now im a troll.
09:20:08 <alise> That's actually a remarkably long time talking to soupdragon before seeing her go batshit, at least if me and Phantom_Hoover are any guideline :P
09:21:25 <alise> She tended to start yelling incomprehensible things at me about once every two days, usually
09:24:06 <alise> But at least the shitness is predictable.
09:25:12 <alise> Meanwhile, the complexities of moving country continue to elude me.
09:25:34 <alise> Forgotten about the unit again? Come on!
09:25:52 <augur> but moving country?
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09:27:20 <alise> augur: has always been the exit plan.
09:27:37 <augur> where are you moving to? arent you a bit young to flee an entire country?
09:28:21 <alise> It's not like I'm the only person in this household who hates the unit.
09:30:29 <alise> Such as... the parental overlord?
09:30:55 <augur> your /parents/ are considering moving out of the country in order to get you out of the psych ward?
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09:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399
09:40:43 <alise> So not really a replicator.
09:40:57 <alise> Replicators must leave theirselves behind.
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09:41:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: By that definition a glider is a replicator
09:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, because there are never two copies in existence at the same time.
09:42:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it would be easy to rewrite the program tape to disable the destruction arm.
09:42:07 <alise> "That would be the 13th spaceship velocity in Life attained so far."
09:42:15 <alise> Yes, that is the truly impressive thing about it, its speed :P
09:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there has been a long-lasting search for an oblique spaceship.
09:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Keeping track of the spaceship velocities is pointless now, though.
09:44:56 <alise> It isn't; this spaceship will only handle multiples of some N above a certain constant.
09:45:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone mentioned a proof that a UC-based spaceship could go at any velocity less than c/2.
09:46:24 <alise> Greater, surely, not less.
09:46:28 <alise> Anyway, yes, theoretically, but this model not.
09:46:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, so diagonal c/3?
09:46:48 <alise> That is impossible.
09:46:57 <alise> <alise> Greater, surely, not less. <-- no, less
09:48:11 <alise> The bounding box is 4217802x4220190 instead of 4217807x4220191 (I was too lazy to renormalize it to the original phase) and it moves correspondingly faster, (5120,1024)c/33699578. Let's see, this is the fourteenth explicitly constructed spaceship speed -- and I think it was probably time to stop counting at thirteen...!
09:48:43 <alise> "Gemini can be accelerated by another 4064 generations (and shortened by 508fd) beyond what Dave has done. Any further and it crashes."
09:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not very familiar with Herschel technology, annoyingly...
09:52:22 <alise> I'MA DOWNLOAD UBUNTU LOL.
09:53:47 <alise> I hit 8MiB/s there
09:54:08 <alise> I am so close to the exchange that I could have a 64 megabit connection.
09:54:11 <alise> But it is capped :(
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09:57:51 <alise> "the maximum period of a spaceship in an x * x box is an uncomputable function in x, similar in nature to the Busy Beaver function."
09:58:16 <alise> I hereby declare the disturbingly named "Conway's beaver" -- Cb(x) -- to be the maximum number of spaceships in Game of Life in a bounding box of x^2.
09:58:56 <augur> http://247wallst.com/2010/05/21/the-limits-of-science-oil-leak-at-95000-barrels-a-day/
09:59:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Consider an exploding pattern.
09:59:05 <alise> How do you KNOW it's never a spacesip?
09:59:10 <alise> It never disappears (terminates).
09:59:14 <alise> It's the same as the Busy Beaver function.
09:59:21 <alise> You don't suppose, you know.
09:59:59 <alise> Cb(0) = 0; Cb(1) = 0; Cb(2) = 0; Cb(3) = 1
10:00:06 <alise> (blank space is a 0-period spaceship)
10:01:01 <alise> Anyway -- hexagonal life. Any work on that?
10:01:13 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Oscillator.gif
10:02:33 <alise> Why do people try and stuff everything into Golly?
10:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's the only program with proper support for hashlife.
10:04:06 <alise> 10:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, alise isn't going to show up, is he? ;; My gender may be male, but the gender of the nick alise is the gender formed by augmenting the male gender with female pronouns! This is to confuse you and everyone.
10:04:15 <alise> 10:11:18 <Sgego> What time does he usually show up on Friday? ;; Not at all, usually.
10:04:34 <alise> 10:42:47 <Sgego> Igors did not believe in "Forbidden Knowledge" and "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" but obviously there were /some/ things a man was not meant to know, such as what it felt like to have every single particle of your body sucked into a little hole, and that seemed to be one of the options available in the imediate future.
10:04:34 <alise> 10:42:56 <Sgego> --Terry Pratchett, Theif of Time
10:04:34 <alise> 10:43:00 <Sgego> *Thief
10:06:18 <alise> I MUST GO -- AND I MAY NOT BE BACK AGAIN --
10:19:39 <alise> 12:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Ashes to Ashes is on next.
10:20:06 <alise> I watched it and was vastly disappointed but then I stopped following as soon as Life on Mars ended, so I'm sort of missing every bit of context imaginable.
10:20:10 <alise> 12:46:26 * impomatic never watches TV
10:22:26 <alise> 16:20:58 --- nick: elliottcable -> HARPOONS
10:22:27 <alise> 16:22:19 --- nick: HARPOONS -> elliottcable
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10:38:08 <alise> 08:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So travelling along the time dimension means your speed is dt/dt, which makes no sense.
10:38:13 <alise> We're all really standing still, dude.
10:38:47 <alise> 11:19:08 <fizzie> You should take an unicode-shower.
10:39:38 <alise> 11:22:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, now, does that ever exist outside pure math? as in real world. Drawn circles and so on
10:39:51 <alise> you ["almost certainly"] cannot store infinite amounts of information in finite space
10:39:56 <alise> so, no, true circles do not exist
10:41:47 <alise> 11:33:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: perhaps the original character set had different forms for variations of the same character
10:41:52 <alise> yeah they did a bunch of Han unification for unicode so
10:42:35 <alise> 11:37:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Han unification is the process whereby the glyphs for pretty much all CJK characters were merged into codepoints based on abstract meaning, regardless of (sometimes quite major) glyph variations.
10:42:44 <alise> it's also why the japanese... don't use unicode.
10:51:57 <Zuu> Is this some kind of bot?
10:53:00 <alise> No, I just logread because I can't be here Monday-to-Friday.
10:53:14 <alise> Before that I was basically the most regular regular here; I believe I've talked to you under a different nick.
10:53:54 <Zuu> I dont think you have, unless the different nick was in the form of Zuu<something_else>
10:54:15 * Zuu sticks to his nick :)
10:54:15 <alise> My nick was the one that was different.
10:54:42 <Zuu> ehird, that sounds familiar, yes :)
10:55:32 <Zuu> At least familiar in the sense that i've seen someone use that nick :P
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11:29:27 <alise> Let's KEEL EVERYBODY
11:35:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: Wasn't it so that you haven't done any money-changery recently? I found some made-in-1976 SEKs, and quick googling seems to suggest that they're still just fine.
11:42:03 <AnMaster> oh you mean changing to EUR or such
11:42:21 <AnMaster> well correct, they should be fine
11:42:30 <fizzie> Or just different style of coinage. We did a one-to-one mapping even during the FIM age in the 1990s or so.
11:43:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, well actually, for the non-coins there might be an issue
11:43:16 <fizzie> I have no clue. But we got those fancy two-different-colors-of-metals coins for it.
11:43:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what with the 20 SEK changing size
11:43:32 <AnMaster> not sure the old one is still legal tender
11:43:36 <fizzie> I think they added the 10 FIM coin at that point, too; 5 FIM used to be the largest.
11:43:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that sort of things happened before I knpow
11:44:15 <alise> fims, seks and flobs
11:44:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, but 0.5, 1, 5, 10 SEK should be valid as coins today
11:44:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, for paper money: 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000, [more iirc but never used those]
11:45:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, but yeah 20 SEK changed size some years ago
11:45:14 <AnMaster> and the other gained more security things
11:45:32 <fizzie> Right. Well, there was just 1*10 + 6*1 SEK wort of it, so it wouldn't been a great loss; I just don't want to get caught when trying to buy a subway ticket or something.
11:45:36 <AnMaster> like holographic stuff in the paper
11:46:09 <AnMaster> those should be perfectly valid afaik
11:46:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I'm not sure that is enough for a subway ticket ;P
11:46:53 <fizzie> Probably not, but we've got more, more modern money. I just came across those coins when trying to find some papers.
11:46:58 <fizzie> Time to go catch a bus, bye.
11:47:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, and lots of things like buses in many parts in the country only take credit card or pre-bought ticket these days
11:48:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, as in, no paper money/coins accepted on the bus or such. To reduce risk of someone attacking the driver and stealing it I think
11:58:29 <alise> I like how UNION(0) = 0; UNION(S(w)) = w.
11:59:08 <alise> Clearly we should say ⋃w instead of pred(w).
12:00:15 <alise> (Big-intersection is much more boring, because INTERSECT(0) = 0; INTERSECT(1) = 0; INTERSECT(S(S(w))) = {} intersect ... = 0)
12:01:03 <Sgeo_> Dangit, I knew I should have stayed up 24/7
12:02:31 <Sgeo_> alise, I wanted to say something like "Well, that was an interesting week. Got my laptop working again, the Holy Grail of Life was created, got addicted to Aquaria" or somesuch
12:04:20 <alise> Funny; I got addicted to cocaine!*
12:04:22 <alise> *Not actually true.
12:07:17 * Sgeo_ closes his laptop and goes back to sleep
12:09:10 <alise> Anyone know an algorithm to generate a denormal floating-point number?
12:13:26 <augur> no. do you know an algorithm to take arbitrary pair-based objects and substitute an arbitrary element in them with some arbitrary new element?
12:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Wait, you watched the finale of Ashes to Ashes without having watched any of the series?
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12:28:47 <AnMaster> <alise> Anyone know an algorithm to generate a denormal floating-point number? <-- just enter a small enough constant
12:29:28 <AnMaster> or just write some program to take a number on stdin and write the binary representation to stdout
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12:30:42 <AnMaster> alise, I refer you to IEEE 754 for more details of the range
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12:30:49 <AnMaster> alise, wikipedia also have it iirc
12:32:00 <AnMaster> I won't give you my copy of IEEE 754 because it says at the bottom of every page: Authorized licensed use limited to: <name of university>. Downloaded on April 18,2010 at 14:43:10 UTC from IEEE Xplore. Restrictions apply.
12:35:23 <Zuu> Sneaky, it really does say that :/
12:35:44 <AnMaster> Zuu, you have access to ieee xplore too and just checked? or what?
12:35:49 <Zuu> I just fetched it myself
12:36:05 <Zuu> I was curious it it was really true :P
12:36:07 <AnMaster> Zuu, everything from ieee xplore says that
12:36:17 <Zuu> apparently
12:37:16 <AnMaster> btw I wonder what "restrictions apply"
12:38:00 <AnMaster> Zuu, I recommend you print it. Since that is likely outside the margin of the printer ;P
12:38:16 <Zuu> i dont mind it
12:39:11 <Zuu> Because i find it sneaky
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13:11:29 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Wait, you watched the finale of Ashes to Ashes without having watched any of the series?
13:11:38 <alise> <AnMaster> <alise> Anyone know an algorithm to generate a denormal floating-point number? <-- just enter a small enough constant
13:11:52 <alise> <AnMaster> I won't give you my copy of IEEE 754 because it says at the bottom of every page: Authorized licensed use limited to: <name of university>. Downloaded on April 18,2010 at 14:43:10 UTC from IEEE Xplore. Restrictions apply.
13:12:02 <alise> i won't distribute :P
13:12:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: quite
13:12:44 <alise> i watched some of it tho
13:13:09 <alise> and i watched all of life on mars
13:13:21 <AnMaster> alise, the limit for denormal number is mentioned on wikipedia iirc
13:13:24 <alise> AnMaster: finding that constant
13:14:01 <AnMaster> alise, I remember using it from there before having access to IEEE 754
13:17:07 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it would be practical to implement a von Neumann architecture in Life.
13:29:49 <alise> FLT_MIN isn't a good infinitesimal
13:31:11 <alise> I'm looking for a floating point number such that x^2 = 0.
13:31:23 <alise> These actually exist but right now I'm just using approximations.
13:32:02 <alise> They're called denormal numbers.
13:32:13 <alise> sqrt(machine_epsilon) provides an okay approximation -- by okay I mean meh.
13:34:12 <AnMaster> fits for non-floating point too
13:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Surely it depends on the exact nature of the floating-point processor?
13:35:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The IEEE standards are strict enough to require one to exist.
13:36:00 <alise> 0.0003452670 0.0001316071-0.0004272461-0.0006408691-0.0008544922
13:36:00 <alise> -0.0010681152-0.0012817383-0.0014953613-0.0017089844 0.0091266632
13:36:00 <alise> -0.0021362305 0.0086994171-0.0025634766-0.0138244629 0.0191059113
13:36:00 <alise> 0.0078449249-0.0034179688 0.0295143127-0.0259437561 0.0069885254
13:36:01 <alise> 0.0399208069-0.0155334473 0.0173988342-0.0380592346 0.0832633972
13:36:03 <alise> 0.0278053284-0.0276489258-0.0831069946 0.0382118225-0.0172424316
13:36:09 <alise> Table of errors when using sqrt(machine_epsilon)
13:36:31 <alise> Have you forgotten about -i?
13:37:01 <alise> You forgot to specify that you're using a sqrt() extended to work on negative reals, too.
13:37:04 <alise> Not the principal square root.
13:37:35 <alise> So is mandating the use of the letter "i" for the imaginary unit.
13:38:36 <alise> Because i is current
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13:38:48 <alise> [[In the novel The Da Vinci Code, the character Robert Langdon jokes that character Sophie Neveu "believes in the imaginary number i because it helps her break code" (Brown 2003, p. 351).]]
13:38:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i or I.
13:38:59 <alise> (Either way it's confusing)
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13:42:36 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> They're electronics engineers! <Phantom_Hoover> Burn them! z
13:42:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh?
13:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to know how the circle extends into the complex plane.
13:43:31 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Just don't call it j. <-- I = 2*e^(-j38°) ;P
13:43:32 <alise> What sense of how?
13:43:50 <alise> AnMaster: Degrees?
13:43:53 <alise> AnMaster: Ugh; go fuck a goat.
13:43:58 <AnMaster> alise, common in electrical engineering
13:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Because, for instance, (2, root(3)i) satisfies the equation.
13:44:28 <AnMaster> I'm just describing what happens
13:44:28 <alise> What kind of notation is that?
13:44:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which root?
13:44:54 <alise> So, you actually meant sqrt.
13:45:03 <alise> You should have said sqrt.
13:45:06 <alise> Burn the witch. Burrrn.
13:45:47 <alise> Fun fact: Pronouncing mathematics is fucktardedly hard
13:45:51 <alise> At least anything non-trivial
13:46:28 <alise> We shall call it... TeX!
13:46:43 <alise> Backslash sqrt oh 2 ah.
13:46:55 <alise> Frac oh 1 ah oh 2 ah.
13:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The best thing would be if we had sensible terms for brackets...
13:47:05 <alise> Note: Sufficiently nested expressions just make people think you are engaging in sexual congress.
13:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it TeX is designed to make it look like it would if you wrote it down, not to be said easily.
13:51:40 <alise> Sum k from k equals 1 to n equals n times n plus one [-] over 2
13:51:42 <alise> [-] is a short pause.
13:51:45 <alise> Sum k from k equals 1 to n equals n times n plus one, over 2
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13:52:06 <alise> Already, however, this is completely incomprehensible to anyone if they can't look at it for a few seconds.
13:54:32 <alise> We don't have a big enough cache to understand things like that, sorry.
13:54:36 <alise> Just bring pencil and paper.
13:54:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence we need to stick a cache into people's brains...
13:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, does anyone know where that Brainfuck assembler went?
13:57:02 <alise> I have stumbled upon an /excellent/ epsilon value.
13:57:08 <alise> I need pikhq or AnMaster, stat, to explain this.
13:58:19 <alise> Let dx = FLT_MIN * FLT_MAX. Then let D(f,x) = (f(x+dx) - f(x))/dx. Let square(x) = pow(x,2). Now note that D(square, n) - 4 is almost exactly 2*n for all n. The error becomes ~0.0000152588 very quickly.
13:58:34 <alise> Question: Why? Is this just coincidence? And why the almost-constant error of ~4?
14:00:12 <AnMaster> (or stat, not sure who that is)
14:00:28 <alise> AnMaster: That was a joke, right?
14:01:02 <alise> Anyway, hmm, if we consider an infinitesimal e = 1/infinity, then dx = inf * 1/inf = 1.
14:01:22 <alise> 3.99999976158142089843750000000000000000000000000000
14:01:29 <alise> That's why it's such a "good" approximation :P
14:01:47 <alise> Of course, it only works because the derivative of x^2 doesn't mind how big dx is, really, as long as you scale it...
14:02:31 * AnMaster uses a table fan to cool the external harddrive
14:03:10 <alise> AnMaster: can you give me a 64-bit denormal number such that x^2 = 0?
14:03:12 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm doing ddrescue from the disk in question
14:03:15 <alise> it doesn't have to be much smaller than that
14:03:18 <alise> just quite small, you know
14:03:22 <alise> too small and calculations will fuck up
14:03:32 <AnMaster> besides the table fan can't cool both the harddrive and me
14:04:05 <AnMaster> alise, do a binary search? (no idea if this will work...)
14:05:02 <alise> Anyway, yes, too hot. Ow.
14:05:14 <alise> In Stockholm 22C apparently.
14:05:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
14:05:23 <AnMaster> alise, too hot to go to the other room and check the temp
14:05:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nordic countries have summers.
14:05:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They just have colder-than-usual winters.
14:05:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's not that bad if you're not in the north actually.
14:05:37 <AnMaster> alise, hot and dry is less annoying than hot and humid
14:05:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyone who lives in, say, Britain, could deal with Stockholm or whatever
14:05:54 <alise> Just a bit chillier in the winters
14:06:00 <AnMaster> alise, and it was like 60% humditity in the morning iirc
14:06:06 <alise> AnMaster: It's 25 degrees in Hexham apparently but it's nowhere near that temperature here indoors
14:06:06 <AnMaster> meh I need to go to that room anyway
14:06:08 <alise> 50% humidity apparently
14:06:15 <alise> "Partly cloudy" my ass, fuck you Google, fuck you in the ass
14:08:03 <AnMaster> alise, 23 C, 42% downstairs (indoors)
14:08:21 <fizzie> Finland's been rather warm these last week or two too.
14:09:26 <fizzie> Stockholm's weather forecast looked like it's going to get a bit colder now. But no rain tomorrow-midday, when we have to walk through it, hopefully.
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14:09:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not in Stockholm thougj
14:10:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, be sure to send updates as you go ;P
14:10:18 <fizzie> Right; but I can never recall where you were, or where it was.
14:10:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, well if you are going by train you are probably going south of Mälaren right?
14:10:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, in which case it is unlikely you will pass nearby
14:10:57 <AnMaster> well, 20 km away or so I guess
14:11:15 <AnMaster> if you were going north of Mälaren you would pass like a few hundred meters away
14:11:19 <fizzie> I guess. I know nothing of you geography, but generally southwards.
14:11:39 <fizzie> It's that X2000 Stockholm-Copenhagen train.
14:11:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, Mälaren = big lake starting from Stockholm and going inwards
14:11:51 <AnMaster> you can go either north or south of it
14:12:13 <AnMaster> the track are connected on the opposite side
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14:12:32 <AnMaster> I live quite near that connection point but not close enough to see the south track
14:13:01 <AnMaster> alise, the temp shows 24 C now, but it haven't stabilised yet
14:13:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, as in, ~20 km from the south track meeting up with the north one
14:13:45 <fizzie> There was some sort of train-wlan opportunity, but it cost money, and I'm not made out of it, so skipped.
14:14:34 <fizzie> It's something silly like 3 eur/MB when abroad.
14:14:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, just the single "hi, I'm in Halsberg" would be nice. (that is the closest you will get to me if going the south track)
14:15:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, and that would be a few kB or such I bet for connecting, saying that line, disconnecting.
14:15:53 <fizzie> It's a 250 kB minimum charge too.
14:16:48 <oerjan> halsberg is just in the neck of the woods
14:18:32 <alise> fizzie: Here, you give me a way to calculate a float x s.t. x^2 = 0.
14:19:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, specially since berg = mountain
14:20:02 <AnMaster> that joke ended up as very very bad
14:20:10 <oerjan> well i couldn't fit a mountain in there
14:20:46 <alise> Deewiant: and x =/= 0
14:21:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, does "neck of the woods" mean something?
14:21:55 <oerjan> wait you groaned without getting the whole pune?
14:22:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes it was easily detectable as bad anyway
14:23:05 <AnMaster> btw, copying 250 GB at an average speed of 26 MB/s takes quite a lot of time
14:24:08 <olsner> google says (250 GB) / (26 (MB / s)) = 2.73504274 hours
14:24:14 <alise> Deewiant: isn't that FLT_MIN?
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14:24:32 <alise> Deewiant: Calculations with FLT_MIN are... unreliable
14:24:37 <Deewiant> p signifies where the exponent is
14:24:40 <alise> Specifically, computing derivatives with them seems to always yield 0
14:24:53 <Deewiant> alise: You wanted "a float which != 0" :-P
14:25:07 <AnMaster> alise, what is FLT_MIN now again?
14:25:18 <alise> Deewiant: Shaddup :P
14:25:26 <alise> AnMaster: smallest float... "sort of"
14:25:43 <Deewiant> Actually that's smaller than FLT_MIN
14:25:48 <AnMaster> alise, smallest normal or smallest denormal?
14:26:19 <Zuu> What are these nomals and denomals you are talking about?
14:26:30 <alise> AnMaster: Not sure.
14:26:34 <alise> Zuu: floating-point oddities
14:26:36 <Deewiant> 1.175494e-38 is FLT_MIN, that's 1.401298e-45
14:26:57 <Zuu> alise: and what is the difference bwtween the two?
14:27:03 <AnMaster> Zuu, a normal fp number starts with a non-zero in the mantissa. A denormal one can start with 0
14:27:30 <AnMaster> Zuu, like: 1.4*10^-3 vs. 0.14*10^-2
14:28:02 <Deewiant> In IEEE 754-2008, they're called subnormal numbers
14:28:05 <AnMaster> Zuu, if the exponent is at minimum number then you can use the denormal numbers to get even smaller numbers
14:28:35 <Zuu> tell me even more i already know
14:28:41 <AnMaster> alise, temp stabilised on 25 C
14:29:11 <Zuu> Hi Deewiant :)
14:29:22 <alise> AnMaster: Your hard drive does not matter as much as you ffs.
14:29:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how is that an abstraction
14:30:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, machine level is an abstraction
14:30:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, we should program directly in transistors and electrons
14:31:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if the CPU is designed to run BF directly then it is
14:31:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and after this summer there will be a befunge93 CPU I hope :D
14:31:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but it's not low-level when it's running on anything other than them.
14:32:28 <pineapple> AnMaster: you don't take the heat well either?
14:32:41 <AnMaster> alise, how did people manage before fans
14:32:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but do you plan to return?
14:33:25 <AnMaster> alise, well it could be in underdeveloped countries today
14:33:36 <AnMaster> alise, in which case die* would be accurate
14:34:31 <oerjan> <alise> Have you forgotten about -i?
14:34:38 <oerjan> that's for the left-thinking people, duh
14:35:01 <alise> AnMaster: Or he could be talking about only ONE rolling square
14:35:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, ever?
14:36:35 <AnMaster> alise, please make more wind pass
14:37:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: <Phantom_Hoover> sqrt(-1) is called i by all right-thinking people!
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14:45:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: no need to fan the flames further
14:46:42 * AnMaster ponders getting a huge silca gen bag
14:48:39 <Zuu> its 26.6C and 68% humidity here :P
14:50:12 * Zuu notices AnMaster sitting under his table :o
14:52:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? do you need to do something special when shutting down when you have mdadm stuff?
14:52:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, like vgchange -a n for lvm
14:57:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, stands for multi disk admin
14:57:49 <oerjan> THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK
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15:04:40 <AnMaster> "If you are looking to install Arch on something more exotic, such as your kerosene-powered cheese grater, please consult http://wiki.archlinux.org"
15:05:03 <alise> Old text, and also a very old joke. NetBSD did it first.
15:05:06 <AnMaster> alise, probably, never noticed it before
15:05:23 <alise> Cheese: TOTALLY AWESOME
15:05:44 <AnMaster> alise, yes, bovine byproducts often are
15:05:56 <alise> IMAGINE: Chicken milk.
15:06:01 <alise> Now you have imagined chicken milk
15:06:54 <oerjan> whew, that's disgusting!
15:08:13 <alise> oerjan: You're disgusting!
15:12:17 <alise> 14:16:28 <oerjan> used to be functional analysis and dynamical systems
15:12:23 <alise> dynamical, the most redundantest of words
15:13:36 <oerjan> i suppose the opposite would be static systems
15:14:14 <alise> milk... that is milked out of MILK
15:15:05 <AnMaster> that is used to drive a perpetum mobile
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15:16:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is also a perpetual motion machine
15:16:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, at least it is in Swedish
15:16:48 <AnMaster> and it sounds very much like latin
15:16:53 <AnMaster> so I assume it was the same in English
15:16:59 <oerjan> presumably because it is (latin)
15:17:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, "This article is about a musical term. Please see perpetual motion for the physical concept, Perpetuum Mobile (album) for the album, and perpetual motion (disambiguation) for other uses."
15:18:14 <oerjan> english just likes to twist the suffixes around a bit
15:20:36 <oerjan> Det är en evighetsmaskin!
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15:21:54 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hccf-8BYaDg
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15:32:49 <alise> I'm 14 and I feel old!
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15:46:27 <alise> Non-standard analysis is awesome.
15:46:37 <uorygl> I'm 17 and I don't feel old.
15:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently you haven't been doing enough esoteric programming.
15:47:29 <uorygl> So, often, I look at Wikipedia, see some content, and feel like it should be removed.
15:47:36 <uorygl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_Skip_Day
15:48:14 * uorygl deletes all but the first sentence.
15:49:03 <oerjan> a deletionist! burn him!
15:49:29 <uorygl> My edit summary: "Removed some apparent original research and some non-factual content."
15:50:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
15:56:21 <alise> uorygl: You left an empty references section, GJ deletionist
15:56:38 <AnMaster> dropped to initram fs root shell
15:57:44 <uorygl> alise: eh, stick a "This article doesn't have any references!" template in there and call it good.
15:57:53 <alise> Or just remove the section.
15:57:59 <alise> It's an empty header; that's not good in any situation
15:58:06 <uorygl> Or shrink the "External links" section, thereby making the external link a reference. :P
15:58:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, couldn't mount /
15:58:25 <uorygl> Say, shouldn't that be an "External link" section, since there's only one?
15:58:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, due to not finding the device
15:58:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, due to the initramfs missing the software raid tool
15:59:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so now I'm just going to compile my own kernel which won
16:00:25 <uorygl> Nope, WP:LAY says that it should be plural.
16:00:26 <AnMaster> will move laptop and do it over ssh
16:01:02 <AnMaster> lets see if znc manages the jarring change from eth0 to wlan0 fine or not
16:02:03 <uorygl> alise: two Ts in your first name, right?
16:02:18 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:02:23 <alise> uorygl: I'd like to know why before I answer that :-)
16:03:17 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:03:36 * uorygl takes that as a "yes".
16:03:41 <uorygl> Trust me, it's easier to explain this way. :P
16:04:13 <uorygl> New edit summary: 'Removed empty "References" section. Thanks, Elliott!'
16:04:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:05:25 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:05:36 * alise feels vague uncomfortability at being referred to online by eir own name but cannot seem to articulate why after-the-fact
16:05:48 <alise> I'd appreciate it if you'd answered my question before doing that
16:07:57 -!- AnMaster has joined.
16:08:56 <alise> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(1%2Fa)^n+%3D+a^-n WHAT IS THIS PLOT.
16:09:25 <AnMaster> that is pretty conclusive proof it didn't work
16:09:39 <alise> It's like someone doing a really ridiculous drawing
16:09:52 <uorygl> alise: wow, that's a really impressive plot.
16:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you tried pugging it into Mathematica and seeing if it's insane too?
16:10:44 <alise> It gets no less insane with different bounds
16:10:47 <alise> AnMaster: It's just a plot.
16:10:59 <alise> In this case a contour plot
16:11:22 <alise> ContourPlot[(a^(-1))^n == a^(-n), {a, 0.076, 5.6}, {n, 4.6, 14}]
16:11:25 <alise> Don't know why it picked those bounds
16:11:29 <alise> Maybe it selects something suitably insane
16:12:16 <AnMaster> alise, but it says it is true for all positive n and a below
16:12:21 <AnMaster> Alternate form assuming a and n are positive:
16:12:32 <alise> Yeah, well, it's still awesome
16:12:57 <AnMaster> alise, so the graph seems to be in error
16:13:06 <uorygl> I guess with complex exponentiation, it's not always true.
16:13:18 <uorygl> Since complex exponentiation is a multi-valued function.
16:13:27 <alise> Is it complex though?
16:13:29 <AnMaster> uorygl, look at the plot though
16:13:37 <alise> AnMaster: contour plot is things like
16:13:37 <AnMaster> not complex as far as I can see
16:14:10 <uorygl> AnMaster: complex exponentiation doesn't have to have complex numbers as arguments.
16:15:17 <uorygl> With real exponentiation, 1^(1/3) = 1. With complex exponentiation, 1^(1/3) = {1, -1/2 + i sqrt(3)/2, -1/2 - i sqrt(3)/2}.
16:15:26 <alise> uorygl: True but I don't think it's using complex exponentiation
16:15:30 <alise> I mean, why would it?
16:15:46 <alise> Because ^ is real exponentiation in Mathematica.
16:16:08 <alise> Although, you may be right.
16:16:44 <alise> I am not sure it even has complex exponentiation on non-complexes
16:19:39 <AnMaster> alise, what does (1+0i)^(1/3) show (rewrite to mathematica notation as required)
16:20:05 <alise> In[40]:= (1 + 0 I)^(1/3)
16:22:26 <alise> In[41]:= ComplexExpand[(a + 0 I)^b]
16:22:26 <alise> Out[41]= (a^2)^(b/2) Cos[b Arg[a]] + I (a^2)^(b/2) Sin[b Arg[a]]
16:22:36 <alise> So maybe ContourPlot IS using complexes.
16:22:45 <alise> In[42]:= ComplexExpand[a^b]
16:22:45 <alise> Out[42]= (a^2)^(b/2) Cos[b Arg[a]] + I (a^2)^(b/2) Sin[b Arg[a]]
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16:57:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover hooves up phantoms.
17:00:20 <alise> guys -- copying 1.8G from one drive to another
17:00:22 <alise> how long will it take?
17:01:48 <pineapple> and if different, how are you accessing the files? scp feels like it's slower than max network speed
17:01:51 <alise> pineapple: Same computer
17:01:59 <alise> scp is slower because of encryption overhead I think
17:02:03 <alise> Copying to NTFS, from ext
17:02:15 <alise> I might tar it all up first
17:02:19 <alise> same thing though, basically
17:02:30 <pineapple> and also i think that it gets an additional penalty for lots of smaller files
17:02:30 <alise> Drives are, you know, not so good; not slow, but not fast in any way
17:02:43 <pineapple> (not "small" on a ReiserFS scale, mind you)
17:04:43 <pineapple> if i ever make something useful, there may end up being a parent-killing joke as a punchline
17:04:47 <alise> tar -cjf foo/x.tar foo/ won't recurse, right?
17:05:01 <alise> pineapple: Is the implication here that you killed your parents? :P
17:05:24 <pineapple> don't know... i'd be inclined to test in a smaller folder first
17:05:36 <pineapple> and... not yet, but sometimes i feel like it
17:06:16 <pineapple> has why he did it ever been asked?
17:07:28 <alise> I think the evidence points strongly to "he was crazy"
17:07:43 <alise> She was a mail order bride iirc, and he wanted his kids to play violent video games for the /purpose/ of making them tough -- again iirc
17:08:19 <alise> Hans Reiser, creator of ReiserFS.
17:08:21 <alise> He murdered his wife.
17:08:34 <AnMaster> <alise> Phantom_Hoover hooves up phantoms. <-- no he is the ghost of a hoover!
17:08:50 <alise> AnMaster: Or both.
17:08:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No; someone who murders isn't a serial killer.
17:08:59 <alise> And he created the filesystem first.
17:09:23 <alise> Wired did a really cheesy article where they used vaguely-related snippets of ReiserFS code to illustrate the story.
17:09:38 <alise> Like loops and stuff that had "metaphorical implications" if you interpret things like "children" literally and whatnot
17:10:25 <alise> AnMaster: What it says on the tin
17:10:39 <pineapple> i know what it means, but not how to explain it
17:10:39 <alise> In 1998, while working in Saint Petersburg, Russia, Hans Reiser reportedly selected from a mail-order bride catalogue,[9] and subsequently married, Nina Sharanova (Нина Шаранова), a Russian-born and trained obstetrician and gynecologist[10] who was studying to become an American licensed OB/GYN.
17:10:55 <alise> AnMaster: Send mail, obtain hot russian, endless sex <-- this is the general theory
17:11:06 <AnMaster> alise, but what do the russian think of it
17:11:13 <alise> AnMaster: I imagine they don't give a shit.
17:11:19 <alise> Oh, the russian in particular.
17:11:22 <alise> Yeah, to get into the states.
17:11:42 <alise> It's basically legalised human trafficking & sex slavery :P
17:12:05 <alise> Although if she was an OB/GYN probably a bit more benign than that.
17:12:34 <alise> Okay, now to copy contents.tar.gz.
17:12:40 <alise> (Preparing for Ubuntu clean-slate upgrade.)
17:12:45 <alise> This install is a bit crufty.
17:12:56 <alise> And 10.04 is ooh-shiny. And this thing is versions behind; 9.04.
17:13:01 <pineapple> if she had skills then she was probably getting something out of the deal
17:13:22 <pineapple> alise: i'm not sure that 10.04 is worth it
17:13:30 <alise> "Reiser has stated that he met Nina when he went to a date set up by a Russian dating service; Nina had come along to translate for his date. They had two children."
17:13:36 <alise> So really it was a bit more than your typical mail-order marriage.
17:13:44 <alise> pineapple: Well, 9.10 definitely is, and no point upgrading to an old version.
17:13:55 <pineapple> if you're happy to have "more of the same" while still being newer, then i'd recommend 9.10
17:14:00 <alise> I definitely want to have actually recent software! And 10.04 doesn't seem to have any abject *evil* in it, so...
17:14:15 <alise> Upgrading to an old version will not be easy, supported, or, you know, a reasonable thing to do.
17:14:28 <alise> Which is it you hate, the social networking software or the Yahoo! deal?
17:14:32 <pineapple> the default settings leave something to be desired
17:14:51 <pineapple> the social networking and the default gnome theme (the latter of which is at least changable)
17:15:12 <pineapple> although gnome-terminal actually had a useful option added
17:15:28 <alise> I /like/ the new theme.
17:15:35 <alise> And the social networking apps are just fluff to ignore, like so much of Ubuntu.
17:15:40 <alise> I don't mind them much.
17:15:45 <pineapple> option to set the colour of bold normal text as being different from normal text
17:15:46 <alise> 359.96M 43% 12.06MB/s 0:00:37
17:15:49 <alise> This is better than I expected!
17:16:26 <pineapple> i'm using 10.04 as the base system for the LFS install i'm trying to do
17:16:48 <pineapple> trying as in "very trying"... the damn thing crashed while compiling glibc
17:16:58 <alise> use slackware or gentoo for something like that
17:17:00 <alise> ubuntu is too "custom"
17:17:19 <alise> modifies too much stuff, mostly inherited from debian's culture of extensive patching
17:17:32 <alise> anyway fuck lfs, I have more interesting things to do than make a hard-to-maintain linux distro, maybe if it was a good OS and not linux i'd do it
17:17:44 <pineapple> i'm not doing it on my main system
17:17:54 <pineapple> and yes, i already know your opinion on lfs
17:19:18 <alise> I don't believe I've expressed it to you before
17:19:47 <pineapple> it was discussed a couple of weeks ago
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17:34:51 <AnMaster> man: can't execute /usr/bin/less: No such file or directory
17:34:51 <AnMaster> man: command exited with status 255: /usr/bin/less
17:35:06 <AnMaster> and worked fine like: less foo
17:35:19 <alise> AnMaster: not in /usr/bin
17:35:50 <AnMaster> alise, correct. But that doesn't explain it since /etc/man_db.conf didn't have the path to less
17:35:55 <AnMaster> and even setting it to /bin didn't work
17:36:02 <alise> because of your mother.
17:36:28 <AnMaster> she was out in the garden when this happened. so no
17:36:36 <pineapple> workaround: symlink so that /usr/bin/less points to /bin/less
17:37:27 <pineapple> umm... because you don't have a /bin folder in your current...
17:37:33 <pineapple> shit, i don't know how chroot does
17:37:43 <AnMaster> pineapple, unset PAGER fixed it
17:37:54 <AnMaster> the host system exported PAGER=/usr/bin/less
17:38:00 <AnMaster> which was incorrect in the chroot
17:38:24 <AnMaster> pineapple, livecd based on a different distro than the system I'm trying to get working
17:38:27 <pineapple> yeah, i wouldn't have thought of that
17:38:37 <AnMaster> pineapple, took me a few minutes to figure it out too
17:39:09 <AnMaster> but the fact that editing man_db.conf didn't help made me suspect it *was* something in the environment overriding it
17:39:37 <pineapple> i wouldn't have thought to look at man_db.conf either
17:39:39 <AnMaster> there are some other wtf things in the environment there (wrt chroot that is)
17:39:47 <AnMaster> pineapple, well I knew that was declared in there
17:41:03 <AnMaster> btw EDITOR=/bin/nano but in the chroot nano is in /usr/bin
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17:45:33 <pineapple> my personal opinion is that nano and less should both be in /bin
17:45:35 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
17:45:48 <pineapple> but that's because nano is my main text editor
17:46:20 <pineapple> (applying the old logic of /usr being a seperate partition, i know, but...)
17:48:37 <AnMaster> pineapple, my /usr _is_ a spearate partition
17:48:53 <AnMaster> pineapple, / is on RAID1, /usr is on lvm2 on RAID1
17:49:06 <AnMaster> I'm* trying to get a kernel able to boot this
17:49:15 <pineapple> so you agree with me that root should have access to an editor that ey know how to use in /bin ?
17:49:55 <AnMaster> pineapple, I prefer emacs, but can accept nano otherwise
17:50:18 <pineapple> i don't think i've ever used emacs
17:51:37 <pineapple> i know people in another channel whose primary preference is joe, with nano as the first alternative
17:52:18 <AnMaster> kernel /kernel-current root=/dev/md1 ro
17:52:30 <alise> AnMaster has basically a religious objection to vi.
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17:52:42 <alise> Basically just accept it.
17:52:50 <AnMaster> alise, I find myself unable to do anything in it
17:53:00 <alise> AnMaster: Have you ever considered that might be a problem with you, not vi?
17:53:07 <pineapple> alise: i know a few people that feel that way about vi
17:53:17 <alise> You're not compatible, get over it
17:53:20 <AnMaster> alise, I never claimed it was a vi problem
17:53:38 <AnMaster> I said it was a mutual incompatibility
17:53:49 <pineapple> wait... don't you 2 have each other on ignore?
17:53:49 <alise> You seem a bit too hostile about vi for that to be all the story...
17:53:58 <AnMaster> pineapple, we do from time to time
17:54:12 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm quite happy to use ed
17:54:27 <alise> pineapple: I never ignore AnMaster, he's too hilariously idiotic to miss!
17:54:36 <alise> And that remark will probably make him reinstate his ignore.
17:54:42 <AnMaster> alise, you have ignored me in the past
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17:58:55 <alise> I guess I will upgade.
17:59:10 <alise> Are the sound effects annoying? They change them a lot.
17:59:21 <alise> AnMaster: Gnome. XFCE seems nice but then you realise it's quite unpolished and just has a bunch of meh corners.
17:59:28 <alise> Both suck, so better to use the more polished turd.
17:59:34 <alise> AnMaster: Ubuntu from 9.04 to 10.04.
17:59:59 <alise> You know, the startup sounds and whatnot.
18:00:04 <alise> Just wondering if they're irritating; they change a lot.
18:00:06 <AnMaster> alise, oh I never turn those on
18:00:12 <alise> They're on by default.
18:00:24 <AnMaster> alise, then I guess I turn them off. Along with splash screen
18:00:31 <alise> AnMaster: Fluxbox is a bit too "31337"-style. Everything is an annoying right-click menu, and it's fundamentally boring.
18:00:36 <alise> Only interesting thing: the tabbing stuff.
18:01:05 <AnMaster> alise, there is some fluxbox fan at university
18:01:16 <alise> Poke him with forks.
18:01:27 <AnMaster> alise, why do you assume "he"?
18:01:44 <alise> Blame the sexism of the English language.
18:01:52 <alise> I'm not going to say he/she all the time and I forget to use Spivak.
18:01:54 <alise> AnMaster: I'm not joking.
18:02:47 <alise> AnMaster: read this http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
18:02:50 <alise> if you haven't already
18:05:34 <alise> Interesting fact: You can turn any poem into an Emily Dickinson poem by inserting a lot of line breaks, capitalising random words and inserting a copious amount of em dashes.
18:05:47 <alise> So -- I will Upgrade --
18:05:50 <alise> This Linux -- distribution --
18:06:03 <alise> From nine oh four, to ten oh four --
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18:55:44 <pineapple> AnMaster: on the gnome vs xfce choice: i don't know if you're the type who needs to randomly paste shit into a text editor so that you don't forget it while you use the clipboard for other things (something that notepad on windows is well suited to)
18:56:29 <pineapple> but if you are, then xfce is a more favourable choice, as mousepad loads a lot faster than gedit does
18:56:30 <AnMaster> pineapple, what has that got to do with it?
18:56:48 <AnMaster> pineapple, I don't use gedit under gnome
18:57:05 <AnMaster> which is arguably more bloated and has more features
18:57:23 <AnMaster> depends on which language I'm working against
18:57:43 <AnMaster> but what does that have to do with geddit?
18:57:54 <pineapple> jedit is even more bloated than gedit
18:58:03 <pineapple> but i know someone who swears by it
18:58:12 <AnMaster> pineapple, emacs is not bloated then?
18:58:21 <pineapple> because it's the only editor he's found that can handle having 900 files open at once
18:58:27 <AnMaster> pineapple, I mean, I'm using an irc client in emacs atm...
18:58:52 <pineapple> one that doesn't respond to VERSION, evidently
18:59:26 <AnMaster> pineapple, I filter ctcp apart from CTCP ACTION
18:59:55 <pineapple> and... not sure how to respond to that point about emacs
19:04:41 -!- alise has joined.
19:05:01 <alise> Now that I've installed Ubuntu, time to poke it with a rusty stick until it's usable.
19:05:20 <alise> Network meters in XChat: I most definitely do not need those
19:05:31 <AnMaster> alise, I liked those back when I used xchat
19:05:32 <alise> There are only a few things I am adamantly certain of in life but that is one of them
19:05:39 <alise> AnMaster, What do you use now?
19:05:53 <pineapple> we were just talking about that, heh
19:06:10 -!- alise has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:06:14 <alise> No mandating what we talk about in here!
19:06:17 <alise> That's, like, the first rule of #esoteric.
19:06:26 <alise> The second rule of #esoteric is not the first rule of #esoteric.
19:06:36 <AnMaster> alise, no, the first rule of #esoteric is that it is the first rule of #erlang
19:06:45 <AnMaster> tab complete channel name sucks
19:06:50 <alise> I liked "the first rule of #esoteric is that it is the first rule of #erlang" more
19:06:52 <alise> And why is ais not here?
19:07:01 <pineapple> just as long as there's no esolangs rule 34...
19:07:05 <AnMaster> alise, because is not absent from here
19:07:07 <alise> The first rule of #erlang is "No mandating what we talk about in #esoteric!".
19:07:17 <AnMaster> pineapple, just mentioning it invented it
19:07:22 <alise> No, it exists platonically.
19:07:25 <alise> Whether or not you mention it.
19:07:38 <pineapple> it violates the principle of rule 34 to hope that it doesn't exist
19:07:39 <AnMaster> alise, no, computer programmers are lazy, it is created on demand
19:07:45 <alise> It may not, however, be realised in a physical form in this universe; thus there are no Rule 34 "challenges", just complaints about the latency between these two realms.
19:07:55 <alise> This is the epistemologically and theologically correct way to interpret rule 34.
19:08:15 <pineapple> you know... now i want to write a short story involving a deity who is the "god of rule 34"
19:08:24 <AnMaster> alise, the youngest person to have that?
19:09:32 <alise> http://www.drexel.edu/univrel/drexelink/story.asp?ID=1594&vol=10&num=2
19:09:36 <alise> 14-year-old Ph.D. student.
19:09:40 <alise> One word: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
19:09:47 <alise> Three words: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
19:09:50 <alise> pikhq: Bitch, actually.
19:09:56 <alise> Four words: I will destroy her.
19:10:19 <alise> "This is such a phallic vegetable" --a friend, on cucumbers
19:10:42 <pineapple> alise: should i ask how old this friend is/
19:10:55 <alise> He's studying mathematics at Oxford :P
19:11:14 <pineapple> has he actually experienced a cucumber, though?
19:11:20 <alise> He's cutting one right now
19:11:38 <pineapple> that wasn't what i meant by "experienced"
19:11:59 <alise> I'm not shocked by the question, just by the implication that I should ask it.
19:12:06 <alise> Or already know the answer.
19:12:58 <pineapple> "yes, cucumbers are phallic; but i wouldn't recommend them in that way..."
19:13:07 <alise> Answer just back from the source: "No"
19:13:14 <alise> This is a man who has never "experienced" a cucumber.
19:13:23 <alise> "Although the thought did occur to me what it would look like when I went to the checkout with it"
19:13:28 <alise> He is a shining beacon of intellectuality
19:14:30 <pineapple> unrelated: http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/42654/1274544726/buickregalgsshowcareatme.jpg
19:14:58 <alise> It's not mind, so i-- OH GOD WHAT
19:17:36 <alise> Empathy is still crap
19:17:55 <poiuy_qwert> anyone here on using a Mac on Snow Leopard?
19:18:03 <alise> No, but I have a Mac on Leopard.
19:19:02 <poiuy_qwert> well I might be looking for some people to try out an esolang interpreter that im currently working on my Mac
19:19:15 <alise> Might be. I see :P
19:19:33 <alise> Is it OS X-specific?
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19:20:22 <poiuy_qwert> no, i just only have my MacBook Pro and then a family windows machine, so im doing it on my mac then gunna get it going on windows
19:20:35 <alise> poiuy_qwert: I can run it on Linux.
19:20:41 <alise> If it's written in C or similar it'll almost certainly work.
19:21:08 <poiuy_qwert> well actually its fairly high level, but it uses Qt so should be perfectly fine on Linux too
19:21:19 <alise> Why do you need Qt for an interpreter?
19:21:36 <alise> I'd have used SDL.
19:21:51 <poiuy_qwert> i just already had some experience with Qt
19:22:06 <alise> SDL is really simple and more suited for graphics work.
19:22:09 <alise> Qt is mostly GUI interfaces.
19:22:17 <alise> SDL will also make the code run more smoothly and easily on Windows, I think.
19:22:25 <poiuy_qwert> i know Gammaplex used SDL, and thats why I planned to use before, but I didn't feel like learning it too :X
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19:22:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: DOESN'TMATTER prescriptivist
19:23:13 <alise> GUI forms a single word, even if it is "actually" composed of multiple words.
19:23:25 <poiuy_qwert> Qt also had a lot of extra stuff that made it easier to make, like QTcpSocket and their threading stuff. very easy to y
19:23:25 <alise> "PIN number", "ATM machine", "GUI interface" -- are all perfectly valid.
19:23:27 <alise> pineapple: Acronym.
19:23:31 <alise> Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome.
19:23:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It increases readability and understandability.
19:24:04 <alise> OOPS LOL RADAR ENDS WITH "RANGING" HAHA
19:24:22 <alise> WHAT'S THAT IT'S CONSIDERED A SINGLE WORD?
19:25:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So's pleasure.
19:27:01 <alise> WHY OH WHY DOES EVERY GNOME IRC CLIENT SUCK
19:27:38 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.drexel.edu/univrel/drexelink/story.asp?ID=1594&vol=10&num=2 <-- wow
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19:28:19 <alise> THE JEALOUSY IS OVERWHELMING :(
19:28:45 <AnMaster> <alise> He is a shining beacon of intellectuality <-- sarcasm or not?
19:29:39 <AnMaster> alise, hard to tell in that context: 1) <alise> He's studying mathematics at Oxford :P 2) <alise> "Although the thought did occur to me what it would look like when I went to the checkout with it"
19:29:53 <AnMaster> they seem to suggest different things
19:30:03 <alise> Since it came right after the latter... I was being sarcastic.
19:30:30 <AnMaster> <pineapple> unrelated: http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/42654/1274544726/buickregalgsshowcareatme.jpg <-- wonderful
19:30:46 <alise> AnMaster: No; horrific.
19:31:50 <alise> Say... I wonder if there's some sort of e-book reader for Linux that uses high-quality typesetting algorithms like those from TeX.
19:32:00 <alise> Does all the nice typographic trimmings, etc.
19:32:28 <AnMaster> alise, aren't ebooks generally pdf anyway?
19:32:51 <alise> There's some standardish format for them
19:33:00 <alise> Can't you get Gutenberg books in some formatted format?
19:33:03 <alise> Instead of the silly plain text
19:33:03 <AnMaster> alise, pdf is fairly common though
19:33:27 <AnMaster> or could be the Swedish equiv. of Gutenberg
19:33:29 <alise> http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/2000010ah.htm
19:33:36 <alise> Gutenberg has HTML, but maybe that's just for some books
19:33:52 <AnMaster> actually nordic, not just Swedish
19:34:24 <alise> I think that is the semi-standard one.
19:34:30 <alise> EPUB (short for electronic publication; alternatively capitalized as ePub, EPub, or epub, with "EPUB" preferred by the vendor) is a free and open e-book standard by the International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF). Files have the extension .epub. EPUB is designed for reflowable content, meaning that the text display can be optimized for the particular display device. The format is meant to function as a single format that publishers and conversion houses c
19:34:30 <alise> an use in-house, as well as for distribution and sale. It supersedes the Open eBook standard.[1]
19:34:36 <pikhq> alise: Gutenberg is an old, old, *old* project.
19:34:38 <alise> * Re-flowable (word wrap) and re-sizable text
19:34:38 <alise> * Inline raster and vector images
19:34:38 <alise> * Embedded metadata
19:34:41 <alise> * Support for alternative renditions in the same file
19:34:43 <alise> * Use of out-of-line and inline xml islands to extend the functionality of EPUB
19:34:46 <alise> pikhq: yeah but i'm meaning "most" books
19:34:59 <alise> anyway not /that/ old, 1971
19:35:07 <alise> weren't they digitising the OED by then?
19:35:28 <pikhq> Still incredibly old in computer-years.
19:35:46 <pikhq> And they didn't start digitising OED for a few more years, IIRC.
19:36:06 <alise> "Two fully-bound print editions of the OED have been published under its current name, in 1928 and 1989."
19:36:12 <alise> I didn't realise there were so few editions of the OED.
19:36:36 <alise> The OED is a bit ridiculous really, you don't need /all/ those words in dead tree.
19:36:49 <pikhq> The OED takes ages to prepare.
19:37:35 <alise> Anyway, what I'm saying is that if you had such a wonderful typesetting program, you could make an eBook reader by... hooking it up to an appropriate screen. Job done.
19:37:45 <alise> You could also port it to other mobile devices, etc.
19:37:45 <AnMaster> alise, you did before there was internet
19:37:54 <AnMaster> there was nowhere to look it up then
19:38:02 <alise> AnMaster: Have you ever seen a full printing of the OED?
19:38:20 <AnMaster> alise, I have seen up to and including "advanced learner's edition" or such iirc
19:38:21 <alise> Even for the most pedantic stickler determined to know about every single word used in relevant history, 90% of the OED is useless.
19:38:37 <alise> AnMaster: The whole thing is... a great many volumes.
19:38:39 <AnMaster> not sure how the full OED looks like
19:38:50 <alise> The dictionary's latest, complete print edition (Second Edition, 1989) was printed in 20 volumes, comprising 291,500 entries in 21,730 pages.
19:39:11 <alise> http://mydailycolumn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/graphics-mdc-oxford-english-dictionary.jpg
19:39:25 <pikhq> The book barely fits on a CD.
19:39:42 <coppro> wow... that's nearly as big as the Encyclopaedia Britannica
19:39:47 <pikhq> (granted, that's uncompressed *and* with metadata)
19:39:52 <alise> If it's aiming for absolute mass...
19:40:02 <alise> "Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal" is a bigger dictionary.
19:40:14 <alise> Published, in parts, 1863-1998.
19:40:16 <pikhq> alise: It's aiming for comprehensive treatment of English.
19:40:30 <alise> pikhq: Beyond comprehensive.
19:40:33 * Sgeo_ is interested in Tremulous again
19:40:35 <alise> It's aiming for fanatical treatment.
19:40:45 <alise> Perhaps even religious treatment. Obsessive-compulsive treatment.
19:42:43 <alise> Update: Apparently the cucumber was "distinctly unsatisfying".
19:43:22 <alise> I am not sure in which sense he meant this.
19:43:27 <alise> And I just answered AnMaster's question
19:44:40 <alise> coppro: do you own the E.B.?
19:45:00 <alise> if so, which edition?
19:46:32 <AnMaster> alise, does the OED just define the words or does it also describe what they mean=?
19:46:42 <AnMaster> define as in listing with gramatical info
19:46:47 <alise> Describe, of course.
19:46:55 <alise> All the condensed OEDs have nothing added to the OED.
19:47:00 <alise> Just cutting downs.
19:47:08 <pikhq> And have comprehensive etymology.
19:47:22 <alise> "The longest entry in the OED2 was for the verb set, which required 60,000 words to describe some 430 senses. As entries began to be revised for the OED3 in sequence starting from M, the longest entry became make in 2000, then put in 2007."
19:47:36 <AnMaster> alise, then there is some pretty heavy Swedish such. So heavy they only finished to to t (iirc). Started over 100 years ago
19:48:05 <AnMaster> (not same as Svenska Adademins Ordlista)
19:48:14 <alise> # Contemporary beliefs about race and ethnicity are included in the Encyclopedia's articles. For example, the entry for "Negro" states, "Mentally the negro is inferior to the white... the arrest or even deterioration of mental development [after adolescence] is no doubt very largely due to the fact that after puberty sexual matters take the first place in the negro's life and thoughts."[4] The article about the American War of Independence attributes the su
19:48:14 <alise> ccess of the United States in part to "a population mainly of good English blood and instincts".[5]
19:48:16 <coppro> alise: My school library does
19:48:29 <coppro> dunno which edition; haven't seen it in a while
19:48:37 <alise> # Many articles are now factually outdated, in particular those on science, technology, international and municipal law, and medicine. For example, the article on the vitamin deficiency disease beriberi speculates that it is caused by a fungus, vitamins not having been discovered at the time. Articles about geographic places mention rail connections and ferry stops in towns that today no longer employ such transport.
19:49:05 <coppro> sounds likely; it's pretty old
19:49:14 <alise> "Encyclopedia Americana" x_x
19:49:23 <alise> coppro: It's still updated; that's only one edition.
19:49:27 <alise> It was first published in the 1700s.
19:49:56 <AnMaster> alise, when was the last edition?
19:50:22 <AnMaster> alise, that no longer has texts like that above I presume?
19:50:27 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to MigoMipo_.
19:50:29 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
19:50:55 <alise> It's a modern encyclopedia.
19:51:01 <alise> A bit rubbish nowadays, but there you go.
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20:04:48 <AnMaster> package gnome did not depend on xorg-server
20:04:59 <AnMaster> I guess that does make kind of sense
20:05:09 <AnMaster> but it seems somewhat strange still
20:05:47 <pikhq> Only needs the libraries.
20:05:59 <pikhq> It can use a server on another system just fine.
20:06:27 <alise> Ubuntu 10.04 is frighteningly polished.
20:06:30 <alise> Could this OS actually become usable?
20:06:51 <alise> The only words that occur to me are "surely not".
20:09:49 -!- augur has joined.
20:09:59 <pikhq> The next version of Ubuntu will, inevitably, do something absolutely retarded like use a very buggy repository release of Pulseaudio.
20:10:26 <alise> But hey... this is quite nice.
20:11:11 <alise> TERMINAL IS TRANSPARENT BY DEFAULT WHY WHY
20:11:22 <alise> ONLY PEOPLE WHO DON'T ACTUALLY USE THEIR TERMINAL MAKE IT TRANSPARENT
20:11:29 <alise> AnMaster: It's Ubuntu. Of course it's not perfect.
20:12:01 <AnMaster> <alise> ONLY PEOPLE WHO DON'T ACTUALLY USE THEIR TERMINAL MAKE IT TRANSPARENT <-- says a lot about ubuntu
20:12:20 <alise> AnMaster: Not really, because the theme will have been created by graphics designers.
20:12:25 <alise> Who, you know, don't generally use terminals.
20:12:46 <AnMaster> WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO DO WITH THEMES AND GUIs?
20:13:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Would you prefer to have a programmer do it?
20:13:17 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I will continue to use clearlooks + old gnome icon theme
20:13:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. twm isn't too bad at all
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20:13:38 <alise> Well, a graphics designer/human-computer interaction/typography specialist is who you want to do it.
20:13:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: On the other hand, CDE hurts.
20:13:59 <pikhq> alise: In other words, you want a UI designer to do it. :)
20:14:03 <alise> Graphics designer so that it's pleasing on the eye, human-computer interaction expert for incredibly obvious reasons, and typography to present the information well.
20:14:09 <alise> pikhq: Well, yeah. Exactly.
20:14:11 <pikhq> Pity that those hardly even exist.
20:14:29 * alise installs Emacs, thus directly contributing to the nonexistence of UI designers
20:15:07 <AnMaster> alise, thought the same would apply to vi(m)
20:15:22 <alise> You know, I like this purple colour.
20:15:25 <alise> It's much better than the orange.
20:15:41 <alise> The orange/brown of past Ubunti.
20:15:58 * AnMaster is on a blue ubuntu (no, not kubuntu)
20:16:05 <AnMaster> (just no logo in sight anywhere)
20:16:10 <alise> It's now purple-background with beigey-yellow window colours and dark brown/dark greyish window decoration.
20:16:16 <alise> Plus dark grey menus.
20:16:27 <AnMaster> alise, I prefer very light colours personally
20:16:27 <alise> Something new for a change.
20:16:46 <alise> (So do I but the light version of this theme is hideous and I don't like the other light Gnome themes)
20:16:52 <pineapple> i'd like it if it wasn't a dark theme
20:16:56 <alise> Using a light background would perk this up just fine.
20:17:00 <alise> AnMaster: No thanks.
20:17:05 <alise> Used Clearlooks for months now but not happily
20:17:09 <AnMaster> alise, what is wrong with clearlooks?
20:17:09 <pineapple> i just don't think they work as well as they should do...
20:17:33 <alise> I don't find it very usable.
20:17:58 <alise> For various reasons I find this theme more easily usable, because the menus are better-highlighted, there aren't copious borders everywhere cluttering up the interface, and the default colours are a lot easier on the eyes.
20:18:07 <alise> I just find it more pleasant to use.
20:18:35 <alise> Ubuntuers intersect Emacsers: emacs-snapshot-gtk or emacs23?
20:19:23 <AnMaster> alise, I prefer stable one in general
20:19:32 <AnMaster> not sure what emacs-snapshot-gtk is
20:19:38 <AnMaster> but this laptop is still jaunty
20:19:39 <alise> From trunk, but Emacs trunk never breaks.
20:19:55 <alise> And Debian/Ubuntu would never ship a broken emacs-snapshot anyway.
20:19:55 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't? It broke on me before
20:20:02 <alise> A /lot/ of people use that package.
20:20:16 <AnMaster> debian or ubuntu wouldn't ship broken versions
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20:21:15 * alise loads up HAKMEM to have a little browse.
20:22:11 <alise> Ouch, their ASCII mathematical notation is unreadable :)
20:22:54 <alise> Hey! They have results obtained with MATHLAB in there -- the first ever CAS!
20:23:35 <alise> You /don't know what HAKMEM is/?
20:24:06 <alise> AnMaster: Only one of the most influential and awesome MIT A.I. Lab notes. Circa 1972, it contains many pieces of apocrypha, algorithms, neat tricks, anecdotes, properties, solutions, and, well, everything.
20:24:08 <alise> http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/hakmem/hakmem.html
20:24:30 <AnMaster> "HAKMEM is notable as an early compendium of algorithmic technique, particularly for its practical bent, and as an illustration of the wide-ranging interests of AI Lab people of the time, which included almost anything other than AI research."
20:24:36 <alise> Topics include the "bananananananana..." problem with letter-based Markov chains, algorithms for calculating all kinds of stuff,
20:24:46 <alise> lots and lots of random interesting mathematics,
20:24:58 <alise> games and stuff, ideas for computer programs,
20:25:11 <alise> and machine-specific hardware hacks.
20:25:33 <alise> # Problem 95 Solve chess
20:25:33 <alise> # Problem 96 Solve Go
20:25:39 <alise> Not without ambition, either.
20:25:41 <alise> Solve chess. There are about 10^40 possible positions; in most of them, one side is hopelessly lost.
20:25:41 <alise> Solve Go. About 10^170 positions.]]
20:26:16 <alise> AnMaster: Anyway if you can get past the hideous ASCIImathematics (it's not linear, it's just really ugly 2D notation) it's a joy to read.
20:26:38 <AnMaster> alise, example of the notation?
20:26:44 <alise> Lots of famous figures referred to in it
20:27:04 <alise> A0 - A1 + A2 - ... = > -----------------
20:27:10 <alise> (where (DELTA A0) = > BINOMIAL(K, m) (-1) Am = Kth forward difference on A0)
20:27:27 <alise> ! ! (ROOT - ROOT ) = square of determinant whose i,j element is
20:27:27 <pikhq> Thank $diety for TeX
20:27:41 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but still, you gotta admire these guys for typesetting non-trivial mathematics like that.
20:27:52 <alise> It was, after all, done on a PDP in the 70s.
20:27:56 <pikhq> alise: True. That's pretty dang hard to do in ASCII.
20:28:07 <alise> [[In work on education at our lab, we built a motorized "turtle" controlled by computer commands in the child-oriented language "Logo".]]
20:28:13 <pikhq> Particularly when you consider that the whole idea of a *visual editor* was relatively new.
20:28:26 <alise> To be honest, though, they should have just handwritten it like so:
20:28:26 <alise> http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/hakmem/Item187I.gif
20:28:41 <alise> But then the formulas were designed for snarfing into other stuff, I suspect, while doing that with the diagram would be patently impossible in the 70s.
20:28:53 <pikhq> Or got Knuth to invent TeX a bit faster.
20:29:08 <alise> Could have given it in linear, computerised notation + a drawing of the mathematical notation.
20:29:47 <alise> Proving that short programs are neither trivial nor exhausted yet, there is the following:
20:29:48 <alise> This is a display hack (that is, it makes pretty patterns) with the low 9 bits = Y and the 9 next higher = X; also, it makes interesting, related noises with a stereo amplifier hooked to the X and Y signals. Recommended variations include:
20:29:51 <alise> CHANGE: GOOD INITIAL CONTENTS OF 1:
20:29:53 <alise> none 377767,,377767; 757777,,757757; etc.
20:29:55 <alise> TLC 1,2(1) 373777,,0; 300000,,0
20:29:57 <alise> TLC 1,3(1) -2,,-2; -5,,-1; -6,,-1
20:29:59 <alise> ROT 1,1 7,,7; A0000B,,A0000B
20:30:01 <alise> ROTC 1,11 ;Can't use TLCA over data.
20:30:05 <alise> So interesting to see the very theoretical mathematics juxtaposed with dirty PDP tricks.
20:30:10 <alise> I wish I was in the AI Lab back then... and born.
20:30:23 <pikhq> Much awesomeness was happening then.
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20:30:31 <alise> The myth that any given programming language is machine independent is easily exploded by computing the sum of powers of 2.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period = 1 with sign +, you are on a sign-magnitude machine.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period = 1 at -1, you are on a twos-complement machine.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period > 1, including the beginning, you are on a ones-complement machine.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period > 1, not including the beginning, your machine isn't binary -- the pattern should tell you the base.
20:30:34 <alise> * If you run out of memory, you are on a string or Bignum system.
20:30:35 <alise> * If arithmetic overflow is a fatal error, some fascist pig with a read-only mind is trying to enforce machine independence. But the very ability to trap overflow is machine dependent.
20:30:38 <alise> By this strategy, consider the universe, or, more precisely, algebra:
20:30:40 <alise> let X = the sum of many powers of two = ...111111
20:30:42 <alise> now add X to itself; X + X = ...111110
20:30:45 <alise> thus, 2X = X - 1 so X = -1
20:30:46 <alise> therefore algebra is run on a machine (the universe) which is twos-complement.
20:31:43 <alise> That uses the sum of powers of two = -1 result :-)
20:34:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:43:03 <alise> K(m) = I ------------------------- dt
20:43:03 <alise> / sqrt((1 - t ) (1 - m t ))
20:43:08 <alise> Why did they use such strange ASCII notation for big symbols?
20:43:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:48:14 <alise> Ugh; this video driver is wonky.
20:51:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, alise, I've been thinking about the c signal thing.
20:52:13 -!- hiato has joined.
20:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It is possible to have signals that travel at c but stop, but they have to be subject to some restrictions.
20:53:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
20:53:20 <alise> pikhq: Are you there
20:53:48 <alise> Do you have a nvidia card?
20:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, the distance left to go has to be encoded into the first row of cells.
20:54:17 <pikhq> Because my onboard video card is ATi, and I'm too lazy to get an Nvidia card.
20:54:28 <alise> But, but, I need help with a driver.
20:54:34 <pikhq> But eh, it's alright. The free software drivers for ATi cards don't suck too bad.
20:54:49 <pikhq> I've used Nvidia in the past.
20:54:53 <pikhq> Whaddya need help with?
20:56:07 <alise> I'm using the "current" nvidia drivers, but I can switch to versions 96 and 173.
20:56:20 <alise> In Emacs 23, after a while, text distorts with random lines and stuff.
20:56:31 <alise> Pretty soon the actual typed text becomes incomprehensible blobs of random black and white.
20:57:25 <pikhq> Doesn't Ubuntu default to Nouveau drivers?
20:57:46 <alise> pikhq: http://imgur.com/D7aCd.png
20:57:51 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but those distorted every single piece of text.
20:57:55 <alise> Which I thought was significantly worse.
20:58:17 <pikhq> I have never ever ever seen that behavior with official Nvidia drivers.
20:58:49 <alise> This is a shitty onboard nvidia card btw.
20:58:58 <alise> I wonder if disabling Compiz would help.
20:59:01 <pikhq> Nvidia's drivers for Linux are very well-tested. Same drivers used for Windows, in fact.
20:59:08 <alise> This didn't happen in 9.04, by the way.
20:59:12 <pikhq> (they interact with kernels via an abstraction layer)
20:59:18 <alise> pikhq: I'm wondering if downgrading might help; they may have done changes without testing old low-end models.
20:59:31 <alise> Also, only Emacs does this.
20:59:32 <pikhq> That seems plausible.
20:59:34 <alise> pikhq: Requires a reboot, so...
20:59:43 <alise> I guess I could just restart X.
20:59:46 <alise> But defying Ubuntu is Unwise.
20:59:53 <AnMaster> alise, I use 173 series drivers, not the last ones there. For other bugs
21:00:05 <alise> I might do that, then.
21:00:36 <AnMaster> alise, completely different bug though
21:00:47 <AnMaster> alise, also you need something that supports your card
21:01:32 <AnMaster> <alise> This didn't happen in 9.04, by the way. <-- what about 9.10?
21:02:03 <alise> Has never graced this machine.
21:03:48 <alise> Just didn't upgrade. It's an old machine.
21:05:13 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:08:43 <pikhq> Oh dear. I just looked at shish.c again.
21:08:52 <pikhq> My goodness that was crazy code.
21:12:36 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/QcPH
21:12:50 <pikhq> Needs to be built with -nostdlib
21:16:13 <pikhq> Yes, it was written a while back.
21:20:20 <alise> shish.c:57: error: __NR_waitpid undeclared (first use in this function)
21:20:21 <alise> shish.c:57: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
21:20:21 <alise> shish.c:57: error: for each function it appears in.)
21:20:39 <AnMaster> I doubt -m32 will help with THAT
21:20:50 <alise> it's the header files I need
21:21:32 <AnMaster> alise, well yes maybe but more importantly is that int $0x80 doesn't work to do a system call on x86_64 linux afaik
21:22:09 <AnMaster> alise, it is syscall or nothing iirc
21:22:11 <pikhq> And my string comparison trick might not work either.
21:22:40 <alise> /* shit shell -- Copyright Jeffry Johnston, Josiah Worcester 2010. License: GNU GPLv3 */
21:22:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, I am one of the two authors.
21:22:59 <alise> Jeffry is calamari.
21:23:00 <pikhq> Josiah "pikhq" Worcester
21:23:06 <alise> *"Pik Headquarters"
21:23:55 <pikhq> alise: So I was 8, into Pokemon, and trying to make a website when I first started having screennames...
21:24:12 <alise> Jeffry is a typo too.
21:24:18 <alise> His name is one big typo.
21:24:24 <alise> Jeffry Johnston is correct.
21:24:34 <alise> Correct as in "dear parents why god why" correct.
21:24:41 <alise> pikhq: Wait, what does pikhq have to do with pokemans?
21:24:50 <pikhq> alise: pik->pikachu
21:25:03 <alise> Your name is pronounced like "pikachu"?
21:25:06 <alise> Wow. I never knew!
21:25:16 <pikhq> ... Pik-etch-kyuu. Yes.
21:25:18 <alise> I never new q -> chu.
21:25:35 <alise> pika: Mind if I call you pika?
21:25:42 <alise> Or would pika-pikAA be better?
21:26:02 <AnMaster> ouch my mouth, these smilies hurt
21:26:28 -!- alise has changed nick to raihq.
21:26:30 <pikhq> Anyways. I was 8, and I'm too lazy to change my nickname.
21:26:44 <raihq> pikhq: I evolved from you.
21:26:47 <pikhq> It's freaking been 12 years now. I think it's just stuck.
21:26:54 <raihq> POKEMON: Totally how evolution really works.
21:27:02 <pikhq> raihq: You bastard, finding a thunderstone.
21:27:12 -!- raihq has changed nick to pihq.
21:27:17 <pihq> Diminutive am I.
21:27:33 -!- pihq has changed nick to alise.
21:27:51 <AnMaster> I'm afraid my nickname is pretty much stuck in a similar way
21:28:06 <alise> AnMaster unfortunately refuses to become an hero. -- example usage.
21:28:31 <pikhq> "an h" always hurts to look at.
21:29:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Trolling is a art.
21:29:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In other words, you fail hard.
21:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> "You say 'erb', we say 'herb', because there's a fucking h in it."
21:30:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You truly are oblivious, aren't you?
21:30:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway: An honour killing.
21:30:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "an hero" is intentional.
21:30:45 <alise> But, I repeat: an honour killing.
21:30:48 <pikhq> alise: See, that usage of "an" doesn't hurt because the "h" is unpronounced.
21:30:54 <alise> pikhq: I was rebutting:
21:30:56 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> "You say 'erb', we say 'herb', because there's a fucking h in it."
21:31:04 <alise> There is a fucking "h" in "honour".
21:31:09 <alise> But it's "an honour killing".
21:31:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You say "haa nur"?
21:31:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: YOU FIRST
21:31:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: STOP WHINING ABOUT STUFF, PRESCRIPTIVIST
21:32:00 <AnMaster> alise, when measuring gear ratio, if you are gearing down relative the motor, is it 1:45 or 45:1 ?
21:32:13 <alise> AnMaster: My expert opinion is that it is 45:1.
21:32:37 <AnMaster> YAY 45:1 is the perfect gear ratio!
21:33:01 <AnMaster> alise, well blame lego for making the wrong engine speeds then
21:33:14 <AnMaster> it is the perfect gear ratio for this application
21:33:41 <AnMaster> which is to turn the turn table of the panohead for the camera
21:33:48 <pikhq> "An analogous distinction to that of "a" and "an" was once present for possessive determiners as well. For example, "my" and "thy" became "mine" and "thine" before a vowel, as in "mine eyes". This usage is now obsolete."
21:33:55 <pikhq> ... That usage is obsolete?
21:34:03 <pikhq> I honestly never realised.
21:34:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, who would say "mine eyes"?
21:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, lots of "obsolete" things are used for humourous effect.
21:34:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: I would.
21:34:53 <alise> pikhq also says thou and such :P
21:35:03 <pikhq> 's an *unintentional* archaicism from me, though.
21:35:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but I'm *aware* that that's archaic.
21:35:16 <AnMaster> which sounds extremely archaic
21:35:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Archaicisms amuse me.
21:35:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what does that even mean?
21:35:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: ~= "heaven forbid".
21:35:53 * AnMaster will begin saying anno domino bricks
21:36:13 * pikhq actually does say anno domini
21:36:45 * pikhq also says etc. as et cetra with a hard 'c', because Church Latin sucks
21:36:53 <AnMaster> (not sure how to translate that)
21:37:07 <pikhq> "In the Year of our Lord"?
21:37:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, google translate suggests "in the year of grace" but I suspect your suggestion is better
21:37:44 <pikhq> (this was used in English up until about the 1800s)
21:37:56 <AnMaster> but same meaning as what you suggested
21:38:15 <pikhq> For instance, the Declaration of Independence is dated "1776, in the Year of our Lord"
21:38:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is extremely archaic in Swedish
21:38:41 <pikhq> It had a somewhat formal tone to it even then, though.
21:42:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
21:42:44 <alise> * pikhq also says etc. as et cetra with a hard 'c', because Church Latin sucks
21:42:52 <alise> Sheesh, we all know "etc." is pronounced "and c"!
21:43:57 <pikhq> alise: So you too know that the ampersand is a ligature of et.
21:44:12 <pikhq> I was actually uncapable of writing it until I learned that.
21:45:04 <alise> The prettiest ampersands are written like that.
21:45:18 <alise> The vulgar & form in which that almost certainly just displayed is hideous.
21:45:33 <alise> Here's one I particularly like: http://www.merton.ox.ac.uk/images/indexquote.jpg
21:45:40 <alise> But I also like the regular Et versions.
21:46:04 <alise> pikhq: Whenever I typeset "etc.", I set "&c." in an italic font with an ampersand that closely resembles Et.
21:46:13 <alise> Very nice results.
21:46:21 <alise> Also, don't you mean incapable?
21:46:40 <pikhq> alise: Yes, yes I do.
21:47:19 <pikhq> But, yeah. I write it as a ligature because I really have no clue how you're supposed to write the more typical form.
21:47:23 -!- augur has joined.
21:47:27 <alise> I can do it, it just looks ugly.
21:47:37 <pikhq> And thel ligature looks nice.
21:47:57 <alise> Probably the best way to handwrite & is a curly E with two sticks at top and bottom, but the Et form is certainly the prettiest and it's the one I use even though my handwriting is atrocious (like that of a three year old's).
21:48:15 <alise> I have no desire to improve my handwriting, though, because, um, it doesn't fucking matter.
21:48:25 <pikhq> Learn Chinese, and your handwriting shall improve! :P
21:49:34 <alise> As will my ability to communicate with people in fascist countries!
21:49:56 <pikhq> And mostly unrecognised ones!
21:50:03 <alise> "Hi there!" "Hi!" "JUNE FOURTH INCIDENT LOL (runs away)"
21:50:06 <AnMaster> alise, if your have a & that is bound together at a top the best way is the form the lower curve then continue with the upper
21:50:22 <pikhq> (The Republic of China is certainly not fascist, but not exactly recognised by most nations)
21:50:24 <AnMaster> the symbol on my keyboard is bound together like that
21:50:31 <AnMaster> the symbol in this font is not
21:50:40 <alise> South Korea seems to be the sanest of that block of countries.
21:51:02 <alise> (Why did I forget about Japan?)
21:51:17 <AnMaster> alise, because manga and anime aren't sane? ;P
21:51:45 <alise> It's not like surrounding countries don't inherit some of the manga/anime culture.
21:52:04 <alise> Anyway it's not something I'd call "insane"; I'd call Japanese culture fucked up for entirely different reasons
21:52:11 <alise> Such as... their entire attitude to sex.
21:52:22 <alise> Also, Taiwan is better than China but not by /that/ much.
21:52:50 <pikhq> alise: What, you're not going to go for Japanese nationalism as what's really fucked up about it?
21:53:02 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: laptop work ensues).
21:53:07 <AnMaster> what is fucked up about the view on sex+
21:53:37 <alise> AnMaster: They have a very, very stifled and prudish attitude towards sex -- which just means that closeted perversion is the norm.
21:53:45 <alise> And Japanese marriage isn't so very nice either.
21:54:10 <alise> AnMaster: (This also results in strange things such as having hentai manga not actually making you a complete social outcast.)
21:54:31 <alise> No, I'm serious; people have it on the train.
21:54:37 <alise> pikhq: Okay, well, yes, that too.
21:54:46 <AnMaster> alise, what about nintendo love hotel?
21:55:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Love hotels are both the result of perversion *and* just a fairly simple practical need...
21:55:29 <pikhq> Dense population makes reasonable amounts of privacy when having sex hard.
21:55:37 <alise> Ah, I love Nintendo's history!
21:55:38 -!- ws has joined.
21:55:40 <AnMaster> alise, closeted perversion + hentai on the train OK... doesn't add up
21:55:47 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it doesn't, does it.
21:55:50 <pikhq> Particularly with children.
21:55:51 <alise> I told you it was fucked up.
21:56:15 <alise> Nintendo: [1889] Handmade card company --> cab company & love hotel --> video games [2010]
21:56:33 <alise> Yes, and a TV network.
21:56:36 <AnMaster> alise, did the continue with the cards during that time?
21:56:39 <pikhq> They still have the card company, I think.
21:56:41 <alise> And they tried to sell instant rice -- like instant noodles.
21:56:54 <alise> [[Nintendo continues to manufacture playing cards in Japan[11] and organizes its own contract bridge tournament called the "Nintendo Cup".[12]]]
21:57:04 <pikhq> They've ventured out into a fairly large number of things.
21:57:25 <pikhq> And they run the Seattle Mariners.
21:57:29 <alise> Anyway, I hate Nintendo. Why? Super Mario Galaxy.
21:57:50 <alise> You complete the game, it's easy. Now you do all the levels you didn't do, including the single most evil level of any video game ever created: Luigi's Purple Coins (YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW).
21:58:01 <alise> Then you play the entire game again, including boss level, as Luigi, who jumps and moves differently.
21:58:19 <alise> Oh, did I mention? Before Luigi you do the boss level again.
21:58:22 <alise> Then you finish off all the levels you didn't do as Luigi.
21:58:27 <alise> Then you do the boss level for the fourth and final time.
21:58:37 <alise> Now you get one shitty, small congratulation world that you can do in five minutes and is not much at all.
21:58:39 <alise> Do it as both Luigi and Mario.
21:58:43 <alise> Tada, you now hate life.
21:59:16 <pikhq> Do not do 100% completion on games. It isn't worth it.
21:59:29 <pikhq> Except *possibly* Mario 64?
21:59:32 -!- bughi has joined.
22:01:46 -!- bughi has left (?).
22:03:40 <alise> pikhq: Nothing else to play at the unit, though.
22:03:54 <alise> Except Mario Kart, which is only fun if you have a good opponent and haven't played the same levels over and over already.
22:05:50 <pikhq> alise: So, they'd frown on, say, hacking the Wii so you could have Super Mario World going?
22:08:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I don't own a Wii, or any Wii games.
22:08:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:00 <alise> Wow, there's a tex2mail.
22:10:02 <alise> pikhq: You'd hate that. :-)
22:10:12 <alise> Bit crappy, though:
22:10:13 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/research/2010-05$ perl tex2mail
22:10:14 <alise> $$zeta(s) = \sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{1}{n^s}, \quad Re(s) > 1.$$
22:10:14 <alise> zeta(s) = > --, Re(s) > 1.
22:10:30 <alise> Other things it handles better:
22:10:32 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/research/2010-05$ perl tex2mail
22:10:32 <alise> $$\int x^m (\ln x)^n\; dx
22:10:32 <alise> = \frac{x^{m+1}}{m+1}
22:10:32 <alise> \cdot \sum_{i=0}^n (-1)^i \frac{(n)_i}{(m+1)^i} (\ln x)^{n-i}$$
22:10:35 <alise> ,- m n x \~~ n i i n-i
22:10:37 <alise> | x (ln x) dx = ---- . > (-1) ------ (ln x)
22:11:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Except *possibly* Mario 64 <-- almost worth it there
22:12:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's at least amusing most of the way.
22:12:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, you can't ride on yoshi though
22:12:57 <pikhq> If you could, it would *definitely* be worth it.
22:13:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, also that wet-dry land thing where you have to go into that town thingy is freaking annoying
22:13:59 <AnMaster> the one were you adjust water levels
22:14:01 <alise> Guys, I just realised something.
22:14:05 <alise> roff is actually... pretty good.
22:14:31 <alise> I mean the language itself, but let's just say groff.
22:14:39 <alise> eqn is also pretty okay for doing mathematics in roff.
22:14:48 <AnMaster> alise, it is pretty annoying IMO
22:14:54 <pikhq> Yes, the excuse for
22:15:00 <pikhq> UNIX being developed is not terrible.
22:15:20 <pikhq> (well; getting *funded* and developed)
22:15:50 <alise> I don't see anything abhorrent about that.
22:15:54 <alise> Sure, manpage roff is an abomination.
22:15:58 <alise> But -ms is... just fine...
22:16:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: UNIX was made to play a game. Then, AT&T wanted a typesetting system. So, they made one for UNIX and claimed the whole thing as the typesetting system.
22:16:13 <alise> The general paper/article writing command set.
22:16:13 <AnMaster> and man page roff is the only roff I know
22:16:20 <alise> AnMaster: Different macro sets.
22:16:28 <alise> Also, eqn's input format is actually more legible than TeX's:
22:16:32 <alise> sum from {k=1} to N {k sup 2}
22:16:37 <alise> AnMaster: Spacewars
22:16:57 <AnMaster> alise, hm... is that the one where you have two opponents=
22:18:33 <alise> Haha wow, nroff even handles EQN equations
22:18:44 <AnMaster> "The basic gameplay of Spacewar! involves two armed spaceships called "the needle" and "the wedge" attempting to shoot one another while maneuvering in the gravity well of a star. The ships fired missiles that were unaffected by gravity (due to a lack of processing time)"
22:18:54 <AnMaster> yes it is the one I was thinking about
22:22:58 * alise typesets the definition of the zeta function with eqn and groff
22:23:08 <alise> pikhq: You know... the HAKMEM authors had no excuse.
22:23:24 <alise> They had a perfectly cromulent typesetting system available to them -- they just didn't like Unix. :-)
22:24:15 <alise> \[*z](s) = sum from {n = 1} to inf { 1 over {n sup s} }
22:24:41 <alise> Can actually be simplified to:
22:24:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:24:47 <alise> \[*z](s) = sum from n=1 to inf {1 over n sup s}
22:25:03 <alise> \[*z](s) = sum n=1 to inf {1 over n sup s}
22:29:53 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and did I mention?
22:29:59 <alise> pikhq: EQN invented the $...$ notation.
22:30:16 <alise> Let $alpha sub i$ be the primary variable, and let $beta$ be zero. Then we can show that $x sub 1$ is $>=0$.
22:30:26 <alise> And it can even handle inline sums, etc.
22:30:33 <alise> This thing invented TeX before Knuth!
22:33:26 <AnMaster> alise, what about TeX line break algorithm?
22:33:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:33:44 <AnMaster> fun thing... fsck sda1 vs. fsck /dev/sda1
22:33:45 <alise> groff has good justification (it was used for lost of articles and such)
22:33:52 <alise> Not quite as mathematically perfect as TeX, but just fine.
22:33:55 <AnMaster> the second does what you expect
22:33:58 <alise> And roff is more modular:
22:34:03 <oerjan> Gregor: hackbot is missing
22:34:09 <alise> eqn is an entirely separate program to all the roffs.
22:34:16 <alise> It generates the relevant roff instructions.
22:35:19 <AnMaster> what if you don't include that
22:35:49 <AnMaster> alise, so why did it invent $$ then?
22:35:56 <AnMaster> was it just a common choice of letter?
22:35:58 <alise> Because that's included in the manual.
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22:36:49 <alise> Ha, it lets you use actual tabs to space out stuff.
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22:57:12 <oerjan> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No; someone who murders isn't a serial killer.
22:57:24 <oerjan> the series was abrupted cancelled after the first episode
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23:00:02 * oerjan ponders whether to include more context in his log quotes in the future. Nah.
23:01:39 <oerjan> <AnMaster> alise, but what do the russian think of it
23:01:48 <alise> http://filebin.ca/jfjfa/zeta.pdf A test of groff+eqn, and the code generating it: http://pastie.org/972803.txt?key=7lsbxeagajpofaixjsn5ya
23:02:03 <oerjan> russia has an extreme shortage of men, that may have something to do with it too
23:02:09 <alise> Easy? Yep... pretty easy.
23:02:25 <alise> And people say roff is all incomprehensible dots and backslashes.
23:02:55 <alise> oerjan: extreme? "Russia has always suffered from a shortage of men relative to the number of women (currently men make up only 44% of the total population)."
23:03:04 <alise> a shortage, but extreme?
23:05:27 <oerjan> !haskell (\(.)->('H':).('i':).(' ':).('r':).('o').('f':))(.)"f"
23:06:33 <oerjan> !haskell (\(.)->('H':).('i':).(' ':).('r':).('o':).('f':))(.)"f"
23:07:14 <oerjan> ok could need more backslashes
23:07:27 <pikhq> Lambdalambdalambda
23:12:32 <oerjan> <alise> No, it exists platonically.
23:12:44 <oerjan> nothing involving rule 34 can exist platonically, sheesh
23:28:40 <alise> http://zaidwaqi.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/mathinputpanel.png
23:28:49 <alise> Wow. The first useful Windows 7 feature is discovered.
23:29:26 <oerjan> 13:25:18 <alise> I never new q -> chu.
23:29:37 <oerjan> isn't that approximately what it is in pinyin?
23:30:32 <oerjan> e.g. the dynasty from which the western word "china" is derived is now spelled Qin
23:31:21 <augur> oerjan: q in pinyin is a ch-like sound
23:31:25 <augur> but pinyin also has ch
23:31:34 <oerjan> (the chinese themselves prefer the Han dynasty, since Qin was a book-burning despotism
23:31:41 <augur> they differ slightly in the shape and position of the tongue
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23:39:50 <pikhq> oerjan: As do the rest of the CJK languages.
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23:54:35 <augur> alise: that is rather useful!
23:54:44 <augur> (bit late but ...)
23:55:47 <Sgeo_> augur, I sometimes respond to things hours later
23:57:50 <alise> What's the most common font size used with LaTeX?
23:58:03 <alise> augur: yeah apparently you can use a laptop touchpad to input the maths
23:58:08 <alise> not sure how it'll do advancing though
23:58:12 <alise> but still: kick ass!
23:58:18 <alise> now put that on a tablet computer
23:58:20 <alise> and hook it up to a CAS
23:58:41 <alise> Funny. With roff people seem to use 10pt and 12pt, but not 11pt.
23:58:49 <augur> its probably a bit slower than typing tho
23:58:51 <alise> Of course with -ms you can set it easily:
23:58:57 <alise> augur: not for complex mathematical notation
23:59:01 <augur> typing with automatic math recognition, i mean
23:59:04 <alise> it requires mental translation
23:59:16 <augur> grapher has a nice interface for that
23:59:42 <augur> that equation is simply
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00:00:24 <alise> augur: that equation is simple
00:00:44 <alise> Interesting thing about -ms: it defaults to using blank spaces to separate paragraphs, not paragraph indentation.
00:00:52 <augur> s_n RIGHT = n/2 RIGHT ( a_1 RIGHT a_n RIGHT
00:00:58 <augur> er, minus the last right
00:01:03 <augur> sure, simple equation
00:01:15 <augur> either way its cool
00:01:19 <augur> it'd be nice to have on a blackboard
00:01:40 <augur> i'd love to have a giant interactive blackboard
00:02:00 <alise> pikhq: 10pt or 12pt, which would you rather read a mathematical paper in (disregarding 11pt)
00:03:27 <alise> Use the PP macro to create indented paragraphs, and the LP macro to
00:03:27 <alise> create paragraphs with no initial indent.
00:03:36 <alise> pikhq: Yeah; 10 is better for two-column text, I think.
00:04:51 <alise> I wonder if one should adjust the initial line indent when changing the font size.
00:09:36 <alise> Ugh, why does -ms have to share a name with Microsoft's acronym.
00:09:41 <alise> So hard to google for.
00:10:22 <Sgeo_> The T-Mobile N1 users have Froyo access without rooting
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00:10:34 <Sgeo_> I'm using an AT&T N1, and don't feel like rooting
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00:14:40 <alise> I don't suppose anyone has used -ms?
00:17:56 <augur> want to take one? :D
00:18:00 <augur> its a minor little programming challenge
00:18:11 <alise> If you solve my roff problem, sure.
00:18:38 <alise> Typesetting system. The reason UNIX was created.
00:18:50 <alise> "man groff_ms" in particular is the bit I'm having troubles with.
00:19:05 <alise> I want to put a date in my title header, but not on the cover page; the two macros it lists for adding dates to the cover page don't work.
00:19:15 <alise> augur: no quite literally the reason it was created
00:19:22 <alise> it was what they got the grant money for
00:20:19 <alise> so what's the challenge
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00:34:58 <alise> http://filebin.ca/zuput/example.pdf Some more roff fluff, and the code that generated it: http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg
00:35:03 <alise> pikhq: ^ How does the font size in this look?
00:36:37 <pikhq> alise: Huh. Groff actually produces reasonable output.
00:36:42 <augur> alise, ok, here goes
00:36:47 <alise> pikhq: Yep, groff + eqn.
00:36:56 <alise> I actually prefer how it sets the derivative definition to how TeX does it.
00:36:57 <pikhq> It's no TeX, but that's not bad typesetting.
00:37:08 <alise> The input was easy to do, too: http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg
00:37:33 <alise> pikhq: Well it WAS written by James Clark, Mr. "I was educated at Charterhouse. I read Mathematics and Philosophy at Merton College, Oxford, where I obtained Class I Honours." http://jclark.com/jjc-wg8.jpg
00:37:38 <augur> assume you have custom-definable pair data types, and custom atomic values
00:37:57 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, think I should up the font size? Please say no; I'd have to adjust all the other values accordingly.
00:38:13 <pikhq> Looks nice and readable.
00:38:20 <alise> It's 10pt, funnily enough.
00:38:34 <alise> I definitely like http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg more than the equivalent LaTeX you'd need to generate that. The boilerplate is tedious.
00:38:38 <augur> and assume you have already one kind of pair type, call it a normal pair, denoted by (x,y)
00:38:44 <alise> Although plain TeX might be better, it's a bit bare bones.
00:38:52 <alise> augur: So we are assuming a language?
00:38:59 <pikhq> I get the strong feeling that groff takes inspiration from TeX in its output.
00:39:03 <alise> Custom-definable pair data types -- what do you mean?
00:39:11 <augur> make up the language as you go, so long as it fits the constraints defined
00:39:13 <alise> as in you can specify N types
00:39:16 <pikhq> (for instance, it seems to be using the same line-breaking algorithm)
00:39:24 <alise> pikhq: Actually, its output is almost identical to traditional troff.
00:39:36 <augur> custom-definable, like haskell's compound data types, but pairs only, restricted to two values exactly
00:39:49 <augur> think of them as tagged cons pairs, if you want
00:39:57 <alise> pikhq: Two files for your consideration: http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/trofftut/trofftut.ps http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps
00:40:08 <alise> augur: Okay, so, axioms:
00:40:15 <pikhq> alise: So, it's more that only real computer scientists can do computer typesetting well, then?
00:40:46 <alise> (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type) s.t. for all (x:A, y:B), (x,y):C.
00:40:59 <alise> custom atomic values -- like Lisp symbols?
00:41:05 <alise> pikhq: Pretty much.
00:41:10 <alise> augur: or numbers?
00:41:13 <alise> Or any sort of atom?
00:41:20 <alise> Basically any predefined infinite type, right?
00:41:21 <augur> or like haskell's atomic values. data Blip = Bop | Dorp
00:41:34 <augur> i also dont care about the types in the pairs. they dont have to be typed, honestly.
00:41:42 <augur> the pairs themselves are typed tho
00:41:44 <alise> The axiom, then, is that "we have type definition".
00:41:46 <alise> <augur> and assume you have already one kind of pair type, call it a normal pair, denoted by (x,y)
00:41:47 <augur> so you can pattern match
00:42:04 <augur> whatever works for the task
00:42:08 <alise> How is there any other type of pair other than the normal pair (x,y)?
00:42:23 <Gregor> augur, pikhq: Y'know, I'm doing some FAIRLY major restructuring of Op. 13
00:42:25 <augur> is not data Blop x y
00:42:32 <augur> even if x and y are integers
00:42:44 <pikhq> alise: I imagine TeX handles complex things a bit better than it, but honestly, troff's output is quite nice. It does things right.
00:42:57 <augur> they're pairs, right? ones a Flip the others a Blop, but they're pairs. they're just different "kinds" of pairs
00:43:51 <alise> pikhq: Yeah; I can see myself using this for little notes.
00:43:57 <alise> (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type, C*: A,B => C) s.t. for all (a:A, b:B, c:A, d:B), (C*(a,b) = C*(c,d)) <=> (a = c /\ b = d).
00:44:09 <augur> i dont know what that means :P
00:44:24 <alise> We can then define normal pair ourselves, so.
00:44:34 <augur> oh, yeah, a normal pair is just, say
00:45:04 <augur> so the challenge is this
00:45:09 <augur> assuming that you have that stuff
00:45:13 <alise> (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type, C*: A,B => C) s.t. for all (a:A, b:B, c:A, d:B), (C*(a,b) = C*(c,d)) <=> (a = c /\ b = d).
00:45:13 <alise> (N:nat) => (A:Type, A*: nat (< N) => A).
00:45:31 <alise> The latter lets us have "type 3" along with the values 3*(0), 3*(1), 3*(2).
00:45:36 <alise> augur: Okay. Go ahead.
00:45:57 <augur> how can you define a collection of tail recursive operations over pairs (of one type or another as you see fit), that will let you replace an arbitrary item in some complex normal pair
00:46:10 <augur> e.g. i want to replace the 3 in (1,((2,3),4)) with a 0
00:46:20 <augur> you could define something like this:
00:46:38 <alise> So this is just a language-inventing challenge?
00:47:22 <augur> SwapLeft (x,y) = (SwapAll x, y) OR (SwapLeft x, y) OR (SwapRight x, y)
00:47:38 <alise> Your challenge is too vague for me to do anything.
00:47:44 <alise> I do not know what I am supposed to be doing. Defining a language?
00:47:44 <augur> SwapRight (x,y) = (x, SwapAll y) OR (x, SwapLeft y) OR (x, SwapRight Y)
00:47:57 <augur> define the operations
00:48:29 <augur> i just defined three operations there that, with appropriate choice of the alternatives, will let you swap the 3 for a 0 in (1,((2,3),4))
00:48:49 <alise> Sorry, you're going to have to be more specific.
00:48:52 <alise> Define the operations in what language?
00:49:00 <alise> Where is the part that I get "marked" on?
00:49:05 <augur> just make it formal enough to grasp
00:49:08 <alise> So I can use an existing language?
00:49:55 <augur> SwapRight (1,((2,3),4)) => (1, SwapLeft ((2,3), 4)) => (1, (SwapRight (2,3), 4)) => (1,((2,SwapAll 3), 4)) => (1,((2,0),4))
00:50:28 <alise> I am still left baffled at
00:50:32 <alise> 1. what exactly SwapRight does; and
00:50:35 <alise> 2. what I am supposed to do.
00:51:09 <augur> SwapRight (x,y) says "do some swapping in the right (y) element of the pair (x,y), replacing something there with the number 0"
00:51:16 <augur> it gives you three ways you can do this
00:51:27 <augur> you can swap something in the left of y
00:51:32 <augur> you can swap something in the right of y
00:51:36 <augur> or you can swap the whole of y
00:51:53 <augur> think of it as an alternative in a rewriting system
00:53:32 <alise> How does it decide which?
00:53:41 <alise> pikhq: Give me one good reason not to write my own typesetting system!
00:54:08 <augur> eh. who cares. it's not a targetting replacement. the choice is free, and whichever choice is made results in whichever replacements
00:54:40 <augur> if you want to replace 3, thats the series of choices you'd have to make
00:55:19 <augur> but, crucially, that definition is fully recursive
00:55:33 <augur> because the swap operations are applying to deeper and deeper parts of the pair
00:55:48 <alise> pikhq: This means I get to learn about typography and things!
00:56:17 <alise> And, and macros, and syntax, and...
00:56:52 <alise> pikhq: Of course, now the thing is to resist all temptations to reverse-engineer.
00:57:03 <alise> pikhq: Of course, now the thing is to resist all temptations to over-engineer.
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01:01:09 <alise> I do, however, like lout's functional take on stuff.
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01:02:06 <Mathnerd314> alise: reason to not write typesetting system: you could use TeX
01:02:15 <SgeoN1> What's wrong with overengineering, said the creator of PSOX
01:05:14 <alise> Mathnerd314: Where's the fun in that?
01:07:48 <alise> G.E.B. was typeset with some system called SMUT before anyone else was doing it.
01:11:03 <Mathnerd314> ok; I must admit that TeX formulas are horrible compared to OOO's :p
01:12:19 <alise> In typesetting output? If you think so you are insane.
01:12:23 <alise> In input format? Ehh, point.
01:12:27 <alise> But it /is/ very extensible...
01:13:57 <Mathnerd314> OOO could be made extensible as well, I think
01:14:10 <alise> OO.o sucks though.
01:14:18 <alise> augur: <alise> augur: I see.
01:14:18 <alise> <alise> How does it decide which?
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01:14:53 <augur> i answered that. :|
01:15:08 <alise> Mathnerd314: of course not.
01:15:46 <augur> you dont decide. you do whatever you want. the choices you make lead to different replacements. its not a targetted replacement _algorithm_, its just a series of operations
01:16:02 <augur> sort of like with a formal grammar
01:16:22 <augur> IF you want to produce this or that sentence, then you'd have to make these choices of rule application
01:16:41 <Mathnerd314> alise: what stages would/will your typesetting system use?
01:16:45 <augur> what the algorithm is for making that choice, well, thats the parsing problem and thats not the goal here
01:16:56 <augur> the goal is the definition of the possible choices
01:17:07 <alise> Mathnerd314: Stages defined howso?
01:17:15 <alise> augur: Would you be upset if I said I thought your problem was boring? :(
01:18:04 <alise> I'm a bit tired mind.
01:18:05 <augur> ill give you a solution
01:18:32 <Mathnerd314> alise: e.g., TeX's stages are input->macros->lines->pages->output
01:18:49 <augur> here is the solution i know of
01:19:35 <augur> if we let * be the operator for a special "continuation" pair
01:19:44 <alise> Mathnerd314: well, input -> obviously
01:19:57 <alise> then parser which would parse things like {} and . -- but we'd handle defined characters earlier
01:20:08 <augur> Left1 (x,y)*z = x*(y,z)
01:20:18 <augur> Left2 = x*(y,z) = (x,y)*z
01:20:22 <alise> it'd parse it into objects
01:20:27 <alise> /then/ it'd do that
01:20:37 <alise> commands like .foo {abc} would be seen as functions transforming a typesetting-object to another one
01:20:38 <augur> Right1 (x,y)*z = y*(z,x)
01:20:43 <augur> Right2 y*(z,x) = (x,y)*z
01:20:45 <Mathnerd314> maybe a clearer pipeline: input->tokens->conditionals->macro expansion->boxes->lines->pages->output
01:20:47 <alise> then ->pages->output
01:20:55 <alise> {abc} would basically be a box
01:21:02 <alise> this is basically the lout system, I'd differentiate it somehow
01:21:26 <zzo38> Ensure that fancy quotes and ligatures are disabled when fixed pitch fonts are being used
01:22:28 <zzo38> 2600 doesn't disable ligatures with fixed pitch fonts, and that is a problem
01:22:31 <alise> zzo38: Fixed pitch fonts won't be being used, presumably -- if you would use a fixed pitch font, why use a typesetter?
01:22:36 <alise> Or do you mean in e.g. verbatim code snippet sections?
01:22:40 <alise> In which case, yes, I agree.
01:22:52 <alise> 2600 the magazine? Or some other 2600?
01:22:58 <zzo38> Yes, I mean in small sections embedded in the document, such as verbatim code snippet section and stuff like that
01:23:03 <zzo38> Yes, I mean 2600 magazine
01:23:54 <Mathnerd314> my ideal pipeline would be input->program->{libraries}->execute->output
01:24:01 <alise> Mathnerd314: A goal with my system would be to support easy preprocessors, such that you can have things like mathematics typesetting as separate programs that scan through the text, and look for their commands and then rewrite their contents with more primitive drawing commands.
01:24:32 <augur> alise: issat make sense?
01:24:39 <alise> So you'd have something like "mathset foo | refset | tableset | typeset".
01:25:02 <augur> on top of that, just add a rule
01:25:39 <augur> so now to replace the 3 in (1,((2,3),4)):
01:26:45 <augur> and uh ... replacing the push rule's 1 with an @ because im na idiot
01:26:59 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/ikfxw.png
01:27:04 <alise> Oldie but a goodie
01:27:52 <augur> (1,((2,3),4)) ==Push==> (1,((2,3),4))*@ ==Right==> ((2,3),4)*(@,1) ==Left==> (2,3)*(4,(@,1)) ==Right==> 3*((4,(@,1)),2) ==Swap==> 0*((4,(@,1)),2)
01:28:13 <augur> and i trust you can figure out how to reverse this now to pull the shit back to get (1,((2,0),4))
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01:29:45 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex.
01:31:36 <comex> my password on normish used to be comexico
01:31:43 <comex> ehird came up with it, I think
01:31:45 <augur> for some context, alise: traditional proof systems only allow "shallow inferences" which are essentially just operations at the root of the structure being manipulated
01:31:48 <comex> when e generated my account
01:32:12 <augur> so if you want to replace an element deep inside the object being manipulated, you have to figure out some way of bringing that object to the "surface"
01:32:42 <augur> but in a non-destructive way, so you dont loose any information and can recover the original object, modulo the swap
01:32:52 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-05-19-beartato-guesswhat.gif
01:33:00 <Sgeo_> Maybe it's safe to reveil what my password for Circe's SVN was
01:33:26 <augur> cyborg surgery! :D
01:33:50 <alise> comex: you should move to comexico and sign letters with
01:33:58 <augur> alise: did you write this comic
01:34:03 <augur> i feel like you would write something like this
01:34:10 <alise> augur: no it's nedroid.com
01:34:14 <alise> but yes it is totally my style.
01:34:19 <augur> maybe you're nedroid!
01:34:24 <alise> no i don't think so
01:34:26 <augur> maybe nedroid is you
01:35:09 <alise> Clearly not; I would never make such a blatant error as to refer to the INTEGER OF PI: http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-05-12-beartato-bignerd.gif
01:35:17 <alise> Unless he was talking about actually getting the computer to calculate... "3"
01:44:00 <Mathnerd314> well, I wanted to know whether it was "negative one bean" or "negative one beans"
01:44:51 <alise> Mathnerd314: If I was giving a figure, I might use the latter, but as a list perhaps "Negative two beans, negative one bean, no beans, one bean, two beans, ...".
01:46:25 <alise> Mathnerd314: "Negative one bean", thinks my Oxford-educated (okay this is becoming a bit of a stretch) friend.
01:46:34 <alise> (Although that was preceded with an "I don't know.")
01:48:17 <Gregor> I actually looked this up at some point because it's really wonky :P
01:48:36 <Gregor> From an English standpoint, it's read as negative (one bean), not (negative one) bean
01:49:39 <Gregor> (Mind you, "looked it up" = asked my mom the librarian and later saw that "the tuberwebs" agrees :P )
01:49:45 <oerjan> it's all moot since you'll all die from the antimatter explosion anyway
01:51:51 <zzo38> According to Road to Reality book, "negative one proton" would be "one virtual anti-proton"
01:52:23 <zzo38> But I like "protoff" for anti-protons
01:53:00 <zzo38> Anti-electrons already has a different name which is "positron", so perhaps anti-protons also
01:53:15 <alise> BUT WHAT ABOUT ANTI-POSITRONS.
01:53:34 <zzo38> Just "electrons", I think?
01:53:38 <oerjan> Gregor: hey i was going to swat him
01:53:56 <SgeoN1> Tremulous map downloads take a while.
01:54:08 <Gregor> SgeoN1: So does your FACE.
01:55:02 <zzo38> How to download curl? It doesn't work
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01:56:51 <Gregor> zzo38: curl -O http://curl.haxx.se/download/curl-7.20.1.tar.gz
01:58:11 <zzo38> But I don't have curl already
01:58:16 <zzo38> And anyways that server seems down
01:58:33 <oerjan> zzo38: let me break this to you gently...
01:58:49 <oerjan> i think Gregor knew that
01:59:00 <zzo38> Perhaps this mirror will work
01:59:08 <zzo38> oerjan: I think so too, probably it is joke?
01:59:31 <alise> I think most probably, it is joke.
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02:01:33 <Mathnerd314> I use this: http://www.gknw.net/mirror/curl/win32/curl-7.20.1-devel-mingw32.zip
02:02:46 <zzo38> Now I have curl and wget
02:04:04 <zzo38> Now I think I just need to add it to the PATH
02:07:34 <SgeoN1> 20min ddownload for a freaking map
02:09:24 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/dfZA
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02:16:04 <zzo38> A similar way could be written for UNIX systems too
02:16:40 <alise> It's a decent shell script.
02:18:24 <alise> Anyone here familiar with lout?
02:21:05 <zzo38> I don't familiar with lout
02:22:12 <alise> Indeed, but unrelatedly, the typesetting system ...
02:22:35 <zzo38> Different Linux distribution might use different code-names schemes for their versions, but I have my own scheme if I make Linux distribution (probably I will start when I get another computer to test it with, which might be in a few months since that is when Free Geek will provide one):
02:23:28 <zzo38> First version can be called "Initial", second version "Illimitable Illithid", fourth version "Interrupt Vector", sixth version "Vancouver Island", do you think this is good scheme? Do you like this?
02:25:14 <zzo38> And I don't want to include any non-free
02:25:42 <alise> Here's a good naming scheme
02:25:44 <zzo38> I already have the ISO for Linux From Scratch, but I didn't record a DVD with it yet
02:26:06 <pikhq> zzo38: Roman numeral backronyms, eh?
02:26:24 <zzo38> I doubt I (or anyone else) would ever make a Linux distribution as many versions as high as G_64??
02:26:48 <zzo38> Debian uses Toy Story, and Ubuntu uses two word both start with one same letter
02:27:00 <pikhq> Well, if Slackware decides to do another version skip, it might skip straight to G_64.
02:27:38 <zzo38> Maybe, but I don't think so, because such numbers are probably too large to use in a computer program in the version number field
02:27:41 <alise> zzo38: Ubuntu uses [Adjective] [Animal] alliteratively
02:27:58 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that's what I meant
02:28:04 <alise> SYMBOLIC version = SymbolicIndex(GrahamsNumber, SymbolicNumber(64));
02:28:11 <alise> SYMBOLIC version = SymbolicIndex(GrahamsNumbers, SymbolicNumber(64));
02:37:32 <zzo38> I wrote a program called "Field Manipulator" do you think this is OK? http://sprunge.us/GWRY
02:38:10 <alise> Not sure what it does but there you go
02:38:41 <zzo38> It does field manipulator, that is what it does!
02:38:47 <oerjan> Article Adverb Adjective Animals
02:40:13 <alise> zzo38: You should write your own typesetting system.
02:40:14 <alise> I bet it'd be awesome.
02:41:19 <zzo38> If you want the first field of a file and separated by colons, you do: fm -t58 Tmx
02:41:32 <zzo38> That's how you do it.
02:42:08 <zzo38> And if you want to add zero at the start of each line, you do: fm m "0"
02:42:15 <zzo38> See? Now you know.
02:44:51 <zzo38> alise: I probably don't write a typesetting system, although I have done the stuff that is used before a typesetting systems
02:47:50 <alise> zzo38: Just make it output postscript >_>
02:55:29 <zzo38> Make what output postscript?
02:56:08 <alise> zzo38: A typesetting system.
02:57:50 <zzo38> I don't plan to write a typesetting system
02:58:03 <zzo38> But I might do so if I change my mind
02:59:55 <alise> I want to port ADVENT to something.
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03:50:27 <Gregor> augur, pikhq: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp4.ogg . Op. 13 will probably be in two movements maybe perhaps.
03:52:09 <pikhq> I apparently cannot has HTTP ATM.
03:52:22 <pikhq> I'll grant you an opinion next time I can has bandwidth.
03:52:50 <Gregor> Basically, think "the non-stormy parts of WIPP3, rearranged to flow hopefully well together" :P
03:53:23 <Gregor> I'm defining the parts with the repeating arpeggio in the right hand as "stormy" btw :P
03:53:43 <Gregor> Also, ABOVE RECORDED WHILE NUDE.
03:54:46 <alise> WHY DID YOU SAY THAT.
03:55:00 <Gregor> I felt it was important information :P
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03:57:44 <pikhq> My God he's sleeping on a Saturday night.
03:57:59 <pikhq> Erm. Sunday morning.
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04:12:13 <zzo38> Port ADVENT into TAVSYS
04:12:33 <pikhq> I must confess, I read that as "Port ADVENT into TARDIS".
04:13:19 <pikhq> ... You're kidding.
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04:13:38 <oerjan> BUT WHO WAS PHONE (BOOTH)
04:13:57 <zzo38> Which phone booth did you mean? The phone booth or the phone booth?
04:14:08 <pikhq> zzo38: You. Watch Doctor Who. Now.
04:14:16 <zzo38> I don't have that tape
04:14:19 <pikhq> (don't worry about seeing the whole thing, unless you have a couple years to spare)
04:14:45 <zzo38> Or perhaps I do have that tape, but I don't think I have that tape
04:15:22 <zzo38> Perhaps port ADVEN into TAVSYS and also port ADVENT into TARDIS
04:15:28 <pikhq> It's a TV series. The most popular one in Britain, last I check.
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04:15:40 <zzo38> I know that much already
04:15:57 <zzo38> But I don't live in Britain
04:16:00 <pikhq> The TARDIS is one of the most recognisable features of it.
04:16:13 <pikhq> It is also much-beloved by many American sci-fi fans.
04:18:02 <zzo38> But I still don't have it
04:18:15 * Sgeo_ has heard of Dr. Who, but never saw it
04:18:20 <Sgeo_> Where can I watch?
04:18:25 <Sgeo_> And where do I start?
04:18:43 <zzo38> Sgeo_: You need to purchase the tape, of course!
04:18:52 <zzo38> Perhaps you need more than one tape
04:18:54 <Sgeo_> Not purchasing anything
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04:18:58 <pikhq> The easiest way to start is to start with Series 1 of the recent reboot.
04:19:06 <pikhq> I'm not sure of an easy place to obtain it.
04:19:17 <pikhq> Though I'm sure BitTorrent has a nearly-comprehensive collection.
04:19:27 <zzo38> Sgeo_: If you live in Britain perhaps you can see
04:19:34 <zzo38> But I don't know because I don't have at Britain
04:19:50 <zzo38> That's what I thought.
04:19:51 * Sgeo_ doesn't feel like torrenting illegal stuff
04:19:53 <pikhq> Some 100G for the whole thing.
04:20:17 <pikhq> Not all episodes have had official releases.
04:20:34 <pikhq> A few of the early episodes have no known copies, sadly.
04:21:11 <pikhq> New episodes can be found on BBCA on Sunday, IIRC.
04:21:25 <oerjan> clearly dr who is a secret alien plot to make humans invent time travel.
04:21:37 <oerjan> so they can find those original episodes.
04:22:12 <Sgeo_> Didn't say I wouldn't be willing to watch illegal, just that I don't want to torrent illegally
04:23:52 <zzo38> Now I invented Spider Tarot
04:24:14 <oerjan> spider, rider, what's the difference
04:24:16 <zzo38> Majors can wrap (the fool is zero) (both for movement and for removal), but minors do not wrap.
04:24:37 <zzo38> Majors can count as any suit for movement (but not for removal).
04:25:10 <zzo38> If you have rods and majors mixed together you can move them all at once, but if you have rods and cups together, or rods and cups ad majors together, you cannot move them all together.
04:25:17 <zzo38> There. That's all.
04:25:59 <zzo38> Is this good enough?
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04:43:13 <Sgeo_> I just heard music that I thought could only be heard in Second Life
04:43:51 <zzo38> Any music can go anywhere, I suppose
04:44:26 <Gregor> If the music doesn't come from second life, its waveform will degrade midair.
04:44:27 <Sgeo_> Find me Foxyflwr CUre's "Anyway" on the web, please
04:44:41 <Sgeo_> Doubt you'll find it
04:45:09 <Sgeo_> Hm, mistaken about the latter
04:45:20 <Sgeo_> http://www.last.fm/music/Jupiter+Sunrise/_/Arthur+Nix
04:45:41 <Sgeo_> So I guess the tune I heard might be somewhere on the web
04:46:39 <Sgeo_> If we had the power to trap anything that could hurt a human being inside a jar, send it far from Earth, and watch it explode in the Sun, to the cheers of everyone
04:46:43 <Sgeo_> But alas that can't be done
04:47:12 <zzo38> Human being can hurt human being
04:47:18 <Gregor> Hooray for a dull and uninteresting life?
04:47:20 <zzo38> And surely that isn't the good idea anyways
04:47:32 <zzo38> For various reasons
04:48:11 * Sgeo_ is surprised no one went for "human beings inside jars?" or something
04:48:35 <Sgeo_> http://s12.last.fm/preview/110865117/154/0020389183/11/741308676.mp3
04:48:57 <oerjan> one of the mad scientists in girl genius had that
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05:35:09 <Gregor> augur: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp4.ogg . Op. 13 will probably be in two movements maybe perhaps.
05:35:51 <augur> Gregor: not right now :P
05:36:51 <pikhq> Will listen after this episode of Darker Than Black: 黒の契約者
05:37:06 <pikhq> (yes, the *actual title of the series* is in two different languages)
05:37:16 <Gregor> That's pretty darn dark.
05:37:31 <pikhq> It's a fairly dark series, in all honesty.
05:39:59 <Gregor> Y'know, alt-tab really ought to change tabs instead of windows.
05:40:06 <Gregor> I mean, clearly what you want is an alternate tab.
05:49:24 <pikhq> Now it feels like it needs a second movement.
05:50:08 <zzo38> Gregor: In some Windows programs CTRL+TAB changes tabs instead of windows
05:50:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes. Yes it does. I haven't written it yet :P
05:51:37 <coppro> zzo38: not unique to Windows
05:53:38 <zzo38> coppro: You might be correct, of course. But I don't know much about others. I do know ALT+TAB is same in Ubuntu because that is what is used at Free Geek, and I sometimes volunteer there
05:54:02 <coppro> it is by default... but like almost all things Linux, it is configurable
05:55:27 <zzo38> It is probably the same so that if you used Windows, you would be able to do some things in same way. ALT+F4 is also same way in Ubuntu.
05:55:41 <zzo38> One thing that doesn't work the same however, is double-clicking the control box does not do the same way as Windows
05:56:12 <zzo38> (But if I use Linux on my own computer, it would be my own distribution anyways and would be different)
05:56:27 <coppro> zzo38: are you sure you aren't alise?
05:56:45 <Gregor> Of course, Mac OS Xasperating has ⌘-tab switch between PROGRAMS, and ⌘-backtick switch between windows WITHIN a program, which is godawful
05:56:46 <zzo38> coppro: I think so!
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05:57:02 <Gregor> And I use ctrl-tab to switch between virtual desktops, and ctrl-pg{up,down} to switch tabs.
05:57:20 <zzo38> For sure I am not someone else other than who I am
05:58:11 <zzo38> Did you think I am alise for some reason?
05:58:33 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: only because you defined it that way
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05:59:41 <coppro> zzo38: "it would be my own distribution anyways"
05:59:48 <oerjan> coppro: zzo38 did the write-all-his-software-himself thing first, you know. alise just seems to have started copying him...
06:00:07 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: for example, I think Double x = 1.0 is not equal to Double y = 1.0
06:00:17 <oerjan> or at least thinking a lot about it
06:00:29 <coppro> Mathnerd314: what are you talking about?
06:00:32 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: double x = the literal value 1.0 is equal to double y = the literal value 1.0
06:00:54 <Mathnerd314> yes, but with autoboxing you get different refernces
06:01:14 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: What sort of shitty system are you using that's boxing your numbers and not overloading ==?
06:02:40 <zzo38> In standard mathematics 1 = 1 is always, if using the standard definitions of the numbers and equals
06:03:14 <oerjan> well but mathematics is the king of overloading notation
06:03:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it is, but only when it is the way to do so
06:03:40 <pikhq> Or if they want to fuck with you.
06:04:46 <oerjan> although normally you'd try to avoid using notation that breaks something as fundamental as x = x
06:07:00 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: i'd suggest stopping whatever you're doing, then
06:07:32 <Gregor> Is the bad bad, or good bad?
06:07:36 <Gregor> Like, bad as in "naughty"?
06:07:40 <Gregor> Because that's all good times.
06:08:39 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: let me guess, pikhq's comment made you apply rule 34 to the number 34.
06:09:14 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgo0CDL6bd0
06:09:56 <Sgeo_> If it exists, there is porn of it.
06:10:03 * Sgeo_ wonders what IRC porn looks like
06:10:38 <zzo38> O, there is porn of porn.
06:10:49 <zzo38> And also porn of rule 34.
06:10:52 <Sgeo_> I said IRC porn. As in porn involving the protocol itself somehow, and not just porn transmitted via the protocol. Porn OF the protocol
06:11:00 <zzo38> Well, I don't watch pornography
06:11:14 <Gregor> Yet more evidence that you're not human :P
06:11:32 <Gregor> oerjan: Ooooh, that's hot.
06:11:33 <zzo38> Gregor: Do you mean me?
06:11:41 <Gregor> oerjan: I can't stop the \x01ACTION
06:12:00 <pikhq> zzo38: Very well-known that you aren't human.
06:12:22 <pikhq> But rather a species which is equally capable of communicating in English on IRC.
06:12:52 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I am human. (My D&D character isn't (neither is the paper in the printer), but that's irrelevant.)
06:13:02 <Gregor> A conversation I had a while ago: "My temporary apartment has a 30" TV with DVI, so I figured out how to use it as a monitor for my computer!" "Please tell me the first thing you did was watch porn on it." "I would deny it, but your clairvoyance is hilarious."
06:13:40 <Gregor> Gee using " to mean "inches" in the middle of a quote is really confusing :P
06:14:48 <Gregor> Are you supposed to use ''?
06:15:40 <Gregor> Is "3 double prime" really the same as "3 inches" ...
06:16:47 <Sgeo_> Hm, if ASCII didn't have " as a single character, what would C-like languages look like?
06:16:59 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Quite similar I imagine.
06:17:22 <Sgeo_> How would strings and characters be quoted?
06:17:36 <Mathnerd314> they'd just use single quotes for all of them :p
06:17:43 <Gregor> Probably strings would be in '' and characters would have some special notation, maybe $c
06:18:14 <Gregor> I doubt they would have quoted characters if not for an abundance of available quotish characters.
06:18:53 <oerjan> Gregor: double prime means second division, more or less. (minuta secunda)
06:22:50 <Mathnerd314> btw, I need something to do over the summer
06:23:10 <Gregor> Develop a Scottish accent.
06:24:17 <Mathnerd314> classes - going to a camp (that only lasts 6 weeks)
06:24:53 <Sgeo_> "don't need one" is irrelevant. It gives you something to do
06:24:59 <Sgeo_> That's why I'm job hunting
06:25:00 <Gregor> "Develop", not "acquire" :P
06:26:54 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Monty Python.
06:34:15 <oerjan> well get a stipend to develop them, then
06:34:30 <Mathnerd314> mostly from http://xkcd.com/245/ and variants
06:37:37 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: what is it with everyone's obsession with money?
06:37:39 <zzo38> What is the factorial of the factorial of one half?
06:37:59 <oerjan> zzo38: look up gamma function
06:39:04 <Gregor> With money you can buy happiness, no matter what all those la-dee-da imbeciles may think to the contrary.
06:39:15 <zzo38> I know gamma function I saw in Wikipedia
06:39:28 <zzo38> When I found the article for "Factorial"
06:39:36 <zzo38> But it didn't tell me the answer
06:39:40 * oerjan recalls a relevant mafalda cartoon
06:39:53 <zzo38> Because I am unsure how to calculate that equation
06:40:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know how to easily calculate it, it requires integration or something...
06:40:34 <oerjan> and it isn't afaik built into haskell, which is my default calculator these days
06:40:35 <zzo38> Yes, it is integration and that is why I don't know how to calcualte it
06:40:52 <oerjan> zzo38: numerically, i presume
06:41:26 <Mathnerd314> zzo38: ask wolfram|alpha, like I said: 0.9571218476267359902553835494511485301623742526696566054995...
06:41:29 <oerjan> or there may be a faster algorithm than going via the integral for all i know
06:43:04 <zzo38> Do you know the exact value (according to symbols such as square root, pi, e, etc)?
06:43:53 <zzo38> But it says it is sqrt(pi)/2 for (0.5)! on Wikipedia
06:44:44 <oerjan> zzo38: there _might_ be an exact formula for (0.5)!, but that only generalizes to numbers of the form n + 1/2
06:45:20 <oerjan> and sqrt(pi)/2 itself is transcendental, so taking the factorial of _that_ is unlikely to be nice
06:46:02 <zzo38> I tried using nInt command on TI-92, but it is slow. It does give a answer which is close to the correct one, but only in approximate form (and even the decimal places it does give is slightly wrong)
06:46:06 <zzo38> (Even for integers)
06:46:54 <oerjan> zzo38: there almost certainly isn't a much simpler general formula than the usual integral, or else it would have been listed
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06:50:56 <Gregor> Now, time for a delicious pastrami reuben!
06:51:17 <pikhq> God dammit that sentence is making me hungry.
06:52:29 <zzo38> I read Road to Reality, it is clear how to do things like e^(d/dx) and how to put a matrix in the exponent, and so on
06:53:11 <Gregor> pikhq: On dark rye bread, hot
06:54:05 <Mathnerd314> it's been a while since I've had a reuben... sauerkraut + meat + bread, right?
06:54:33 <Gregor> Plus Russian/thousand island dressing and swiss cheese (but not for me)
06:54:56 <Gregor> And not just any meat and bread.
06:55:27 <Gregor> The meat has to be cured beef, e.g. pastrami or corned beef.
06:55:31 <Gregor> The bread has to be rye.
06:55:46 <Gregor> No other combination is a true reuben :)
06:56:55 <Mathnerd314> why is it that describing food makes me want to eat it? :p
06:57:15 <Gregor> WHY IS IT THAT EATING THIS DELICIOUS REUBEN MAKES ME WANT TO EAT IT?!?!?!
06:57:59 <Mathnerd314> no, like... you read a menu, you want to order something
06:58:59 <Mathnerd314> you pass a restaurant, your stomach growls
06:59:02 <Gregor> Incidentally, I am eating this Reuben with a Sangria (sin alcohol), which is a surprisingly good combination.
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08:22:13 <augur> Gregor: the stuff around 1:55 needs some reworking
08:23:26 <augur> and the rest like it. the first thing i would do is ditch the secondary high notes that come in at like 2:00 with the 6 note downward sequence
08:24:03 <augur> it just sounds weird..
08:24:37 <augur> secondly, change the high notes to something lower, i think, or something much higher. it sounds a bit honky tonky ish right now
08:25:10 <augur> well, no, just fuck around with that 6 note downward sequences really
08:25:17 <augur> everything in that area is weird
08:26:41 <augur> this song has quite an overtone of eh... how should i put it
08:26:51 <augur> theres lots of tonal discord
08:31:13 <pikhq> I think that much is half the point.
08:32:19 <augur> yes, i like that mood. but i dont think it's as obvious as it should be, and i dont think the points i mentioned aid it
08:32:25 <augur> rather, i think they detract from it
08:40:20 * Sgeo_ kisses his anti-virus
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12:40:49 <zzo38> Now I made implement Spider Tarot on PySol: http://sprunge.us/eKaJ
12:41:54 <zzo38> If you have PySol you can load this file
12:42:27 <alise> "As of 2004 any work on PySol has stopped, and PySol is officially discontinued."
12:42:54 <alise> Or do you mean http://pysolfc.sourceforge.net/?
12:42:55 <zzo38> It is PySol FanClub
12:44:44 <alise> Too hot! Hoooly shit I cannot stand this weather
12:44:46 <alise> Bring back the rain
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12:44:58 <alise> Apparently it's 23 degrees, bullshit, it's 25
12:45:11 <alise> zzo38: please tell me it's hot where you are too
12:45:17 <alise> otherwise i'll be uncontrollably jealous
12:45:48 <alise> I'm in Britain... you're MEANT to expect cold here
12:45:56 <alise> Why does it defy my expectations?! Why?
12:46:01 <zzo38> It is dark where I am
12:46:22 <zzo38> alise: I don't know why?
12:46:45 <alise> It's probably that evil weather.
12:47:26 <zzo38> I don't think the weather will be evil?
12:48:27 <alise> I can anthropomorphise it if I want, can't I?
12:48:47 <zzo38> You can if you want to
12:49:22 <zzo38> But you should remember what someone said (about something else): "Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it."
12:50:30 <alise> I don't think the weather is a computer :P
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12:50:48 <zzo38> Of course you are right. The quote is about something else like it says
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12:54:10 <alise> zzo38: It's not like a joke, it is a joke.
12:54:14 <alise> Unless it's only a pseudo-joke :P
12:54:27 <alise> <alise> I don't think the weather is a computer :P <-- also a ojke
12:56:36 <alise> No! That's so sad.
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12:59:50 <alise> He hasn't really done anything for decades, has he?
13:01:23 <zzo38> Other than write some book, I think.
13:02:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ha
13:02:31 <alise> "Okay, here's the deal. Name a game. We'll play. You win, you go to heaven. You lose, hell."
13:02:36 <alise> "The Game of Life."
13:02:44 <alise> [Death looks it up]
13:02:51 <alise> "HOW THE FUCK DO YOU WIN THIS THING???"
13:03:09 <zzo38> And you can't lose either
13:03:09 <alise> "It has game in the name! How could it be more game-y?"
13:03:15 <alise> "You never said it had to be a 2-player game."
13:04:16 <alise> My question is: Can you just invent a game on the spot? What are the requirements for a game?
13:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> There should at least be well-defined victory conditions.
13:05:42 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/5lFTN.jpg awwwwwwwwwwwww <3 nintendo.
13:05:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Victory conditions: "Whoever isn't Death wins."
13:05:56 <zzo38> I have once asked: If you have to play game against Death to survive, which one: Chess, Poker, Mahjong?
13:06:19 <alise> zzo38: Poker. I'm shitty at the other two games, so my best chance is to rely on luck.
13:06:41 <alise> If I could challenge him to a game of my choice, I think it'd be nomic.
13:06:50 <alise> That would be very interesting.
13:06:51 <zzo38> Here is another victory conditions: "Play any card. After one turn, the game is over. If you haven't played all the cards yet, the game is a draw and you have to start over again."
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13:08:19 <zzo38> (You play with a deck of 52 cards (or 40 if you are Italian or Spanish), and after one card is played, that is one turn)
13:08:33 <alise> GAME RULES: The game must be played by a human, on Earth, in physical form, with a young body and a sharp mind, and Death, in his realm. The game ends whenever the player who is not Death writes a letter to Death at "Death / Hades" and pleads for him to make the game end; Death then wins. Death must not otherwise interact with the other player.
13:11:16 <alise> http://lair.fifthhorseman.net/~dkg/fonts/dkg-handwriting/jabberwocky.pdf ;; this is the first decent handwriting font i've seen.
13:17:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why do I not need to handwrite what?
13:18:43 <alise> So, /me is trying a new organisational system for ~/ since the old one didn't work.
13:24:35 <alise> ~/downloads -- temporary downloads that I'm not going to futz with (things like little C programs I download do /not/ go here); should be emptied regularly
13:25:01 <alise> ~/research/YYYY-MM/ -- all sorts of crap I get from other people; source trees I want to compile, data files I want to play with, little C programs, etc.
13:25:19 <alise> ~/work/YYYY-MM/[project/] -- stuff i make.
13:25:31 <alise> The old system was just ~/Downloads and ~/code basically.
13:26:34 <alise> Wow, someone claimed that "grammer" was American English, while "grammar" was British English.
13:27:37 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/c750w/11_year_old_girl_writes_to_nintendo_as_part_of_a/c0qkq8q?context=1
13:27:55 <alise> I like the new Ubuntu release
13:29:55 <alise> It probably did something baaaaaaaaad. But it's not doing anything baaaaaaaaad right now.
13:29:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh.
13:30:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well you're wrong then.
13:30:08 <alise> Oh, you mean that other person
13:30:11 <alise> Who said it was evil
13:30:16 <alise> Right, they are wrong. They just have an extreme aversion to purple clearly
13:32:32 <zzo38> I know what it did wrong (I had experience with it at Free Geek): The default is nc -q 0
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13:35:27 <alise> zzo38: What's wrong with -q 0?
13:35:37 <alise> -q after EOF on stdin, wait the specified number of seconds and then
13:35:38 <alise> quit. If seconds is negative, wait forever.
13:35:42 <alise> But what's wrong with that?
13:35:46 <alise> There's no EOF in network protocols
13:35:48 <alise> so it wouldn't have any other use
13:36:15 <zzo38> It should be the default -q -1
13:36:32 <zzo38> A few people has filed this as a bug report
13:36:42 <zzo38> But it is easy to fix any script that uses it
13:37:11 <alise> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/img/mikdfeaeaecoffpjoodiihgejnbfigln/1274222031.11/screenshot_big/1001?hl=en-us ;; Huh, you can make Chrome look native on Linux now
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13:38:57 <zzo38> Because -q -1 is negative it wait forever, which is the function in olderversions as well as in other distributions
13:39:29 <alise> zzo38: But WHY should it be like that?
13:39:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it looked ugly :)
13:40:13 <alise> Anyway, this one is a proper theme and evrything.
13:41:01 <alise> Hmm, Chromium doesn't haev the window border.
13:41:47 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
13:41:54 <alise> Maybe I need Chrome instead.
13:42:48 <zzo38> alise: I think default should be wait forever because sometimes the protocol is not finished yet!
13:43:06 <alise> zzo38: Ah, you mean like if ^D is used in the protocol?
13:43:22 <alise> I don't think you should use ^D in the protocol for the same reason you shouldn't use ^C: it's taken for metapurposes!
13:43:57 <zzo38> alise: That's one purpose. But the other purpose is things like: echo aboutgophserv | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70
13:44:37 <alise> zzo38: Good point. Okay, then, I agree with you.
13:45:34 <alise> Ah, there, now the window shadow is back.
13:46:19 -!- AnMaster has joined.
13:46:53 <AnMaster> so, now I have znc up and running on my desktop
13:47:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Using the non-native title bar.
13:49:20 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/LWc8g.png ;; here's what it looks like now
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13:52:37 <alise> Ahh Chrome is a nice browser; think I'll use it.
13:53:58 -!- ws has joined.
13:55:02 <alise> are you whitespace?
14:02:33 <alise> -- The following will find the recursive form definition of the fibonacci function from its closed-form solution.
14:02:34 <alise> init075 -- The problem is tough, so you should be prepared to resort whatever measure you can take!
14:02:34 <alise> printAny (f -> all (n -> (f :: Int->Int) n == let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in round ((phi^n - (1-phi)^n) / sqrt 5) ) [0..9])
14:02:37 <alise> MagicHaskeller: http://nautilus.cs.miyazaki-u.ac.jp/~skata/MagicHaskeller.html
14:02:41 <alise> It fucking writes progams for you!
14:02:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:02:55 <alise> IT TURNS THE BINET FORMULA INTO THE RECURSIVE FIBONACCI DEFINITION.
14:10:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:10:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:22:23 <alise> I can't et it to compile :(
14:27:47 <alise> http://vpri.org/pov/
14:27:57 <alise> Want! Fucking want now!
14:28:07 <alise> Sadness... overwhelming...
14:29:07 <ws> R.I.P. Martin Gardner :-(
14:34:24 <alise> p yiff-server - Y Sound Server
14:34:40 <alise> Yup... just your average, every day yiff server.
14:43:19 <alise> [["Child pornography is great," the speaker at the podium declared enthusiastically. "It is great because politicians understand child pornography. By playing that card, we can get them to act, and start blocking sites. And once they have done that, we can get them to start blocking file sharing sites".]]
15:01:02 <alise> Hey, I got quoted twice in one Haskell Weekly News in 2009.
15:01:03 <alise> ehird: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
15:01:04 <alise> ehird: [on the previous quote] Someone re-remember that quote when lambdabot's back so I don't have to and thereby look egotistical, thanks
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15:31:07 * alise invents yet another wiki format because he can.
15:41:27 <alise> pikhq: Ya what now :|
15:42:46 <pikhq> Something or othere.
15:42:56 <pikhq> Also, your mother.
15:45:29 <pikhq> It is 9:45. Why am I up this early?
15:45:33 <pikhq> I went to bed at 3.
15:46:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:46:19 <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
15:53:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Eek, a black hole!).
16:06:57 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
16:10:01 <alise> I wonder why nobody's invented this particular blend of formatting language before.
16:15:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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17:03:04 <alise> I just realised I ran out of programming languages to use
17:04:23 <AnMaster> `addquote <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
17:04:27 <HackEgo> 162|<oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
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17:16:32 <alise> That language is fun.
17:16:39 <alise> Mathnerd314: Hey now, nothing wrong with APL -- I do like J though
17:18:23 <alise> It's just not open source.
17:18:29 <alise> It's a wonderful language, though.
17:18:43 <alise> Mathnerd314: Well, it's the Unofficial Sequel.
17:18:59 <alise> From some of the members of the production team who brought you "APL"...
17:19:26 <alise> I cannot believe I've stopped using Google.
17:19:48 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
17:19:56 <alise> Mathnerd314: Wait, no, J was the same guy as APL.
17:20:07 <alise> Mixed up J and K's histories there, I think. Except I knew K was unofficial.
17:20:13 <alise> Maybe I mixed up J and A+ or something.
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17:27:04 <alise> By the way, using Parsec for something that's meant to accept any and all input is not wise.
17:27:08 <alise> It does not like forgivingness.
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17:30:35 <pikhq> No, it just does error messages.
17:31:30 <alise> I'm not even trying to parse something insanely difficult.
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17:32:29 <alise> tag := '{' name [spaces node+] '}'; name := !(spaces | '{' | '}') text := anything; node := tag | text
17:32:41 <alise> If a tag doesn't match -- e.g. {} -- then it falls through to the everything-accepting text.
17:32:42 -!- wareya has joined.
17:32:50 <alise> Challenge: Parse this without the code looking like an ugly piece of shit.
17:33:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:35:46 <alise> pikhq: Think I should just write a custom parser?
17:39:30 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Bullshit.
17:39:42 <alise> Quadrescence: Actually I've tried the same thing in other languages and so far the code is more verbose.
17:39:43 <pikhq> alise: Yeah; that's not exactly playing to Parsec's strengths there.
17:40:02 <alise> Quadrescence: No. :)^n
17:43:24 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, this parser is a bitch to write by hand because of all the little fiddly fallthroughs.
17:43:30 <alise> Quadrescence: "Meh".
17:43:49 <alise> I just don't think it's particularly suited to this problem any more than Haskell.
17:43:58 <alise> Someone who likes SML but not Haskell is a bit silly. Maybe you dislike the Haskell hype, community or libraries... but the actual language is fairly benign.
17:44:03 <alise> I agree that most Haskellers don't know what they're doing.
17:44:11 <alise> And it's a flawed language.
17:44:41 <Quadrescence> Deep deep down a lot of Haskell I don't have a problem with, strictly as a language. Of course it has its quirks and flaws but so does every language.
17:45:23 <alise> Haha, don't be silly. My languages are the flawless ones.
17:45:36 <Quadrescence> alise: Your languages aren't even computable!!
17:45:49 <alise> THAT MAY BE TRUE :P
17:45:53 -!- ws has joined.
17:45:54 <alise> Quadrescence: Hey now some of them are
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17:50:50 <alise> pikhq: Pretty sure I could do this better; this whole snippet /just/ parses a tag name: http://pastie.org/973478.txt?key=qybxeu7xoift2bcwzlqhya :P
17:51:28 <alise> And the tag parser itself is going to have to handle finding 3 metric fucktons of text and then realising it's unbalanced and so shooting it off as text
17:51:42 <alise> Maybe "{foo abc" should parse as the tag {foo abc} instead of the text "{foo abc".
17:52:00 <alise> OTOH, you could have ridiculous things like the whole thing being snarfed up into a table like that.
17:52:39 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
17:52:57 <alise> Yes; it's slightly less than 3 regular fucktons.
18:01:29 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
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18:05:07 <alise> Gawd, you really wouldn't think...parsing...would be so hard.
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18:11:26 <alise> pikhq: Library idea: You feed it a parser description, and it outputs a parser that "patches things up" so that it accepts any input at all.
18:11:32 <alise> With customisable parameters for how it should handle certain invalid texts.
18:14:22 <Gregor-L> <augur> and the rest like it. the first thing i would do is ditch the secondary high notes that come in at like 2:00 with the 6 note downward sequence // hahah, well this is definitely not happening :P
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18:27:41 <alise> http://lmddgtfy.com/?q=printf
18:53:46 <alise> comex: do you just use your reddit account for promoting the iphone over android :P
18:55:32 <comex> alise: did you know that on OS X, both Flash and the HTML5 player are glacial for 720p, but QuickTime plays it fine; but hopefully the new API for H.264 decoding will be supported soon by one of them, unless Google decides to forcibly serve WebM?
18:56:02 <alise> comex: that... your sentence doesn't even parse
18:56:31 <pikhq> comex: Could you sound any more like a valley girl?
18:56:54 <comex> see, all I want is to watch a damn video
18:57:27 <pikhq> And h264 is terrible for that while software patents exist.
18:57:40 <pikhq> Though, while software patents exist *it is effectively illegal to program*.
18:57:58 <alise> comex: I suggest using Linux -- then you're not surprised by breakage.
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18:59:26 <comex> even Linux has that nvidia H264 acceleration thingy
18:59:40 <alise> yeah but we generally don't install things, the smart of us anyway
18:59:50 <alise> this is okay, we can deal with this, we don't feel like we need to break things right now...
18:59:57 <alise> this is just fine, we don't need to watch online videos anyway.
18:59:58 <pikhq> And it is used illegally most of the time.
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19:00:36 <pikhq> I think Flash has the only legal h264 decoder for Linux.
19:00:52 <pikhq> Well. Legal as far as we know.
19:00:56 <comex> nah, isn't H.264 officially free for web video?
19:01:03 <alise> not that i know of.
19:01:11 <alise> and creating it by anyone without a license will become illegal Real Soon Now
19:01:14 <alise> so, have fun with that.
19:01:17 <pikhq> You do not currently have to pay a license fee for streaming.
19:01:25 <comex> and that's for at least 5 years
19:01:39 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
19:01:42 <pikhq> Decoding requires a license. Encoding for *most* purposes requires a license.
19:01:54 <pikhq> (basically anything but home video creation)
19:02:04 <alise> home video creation will become illegal without a license soon iirc
19:02:07 <alise> something or other expires.
19:02:21 <pikhq> alise: They extended the *promise not to sue*.
19:02:22 <comex> "On February 2, 2010 MPEG LA announced that H.264-encoded Internet Video that is free to end users would continue to be exempt from royalty fees until at least December 31, 2015.[11] However, other fees remain in place. The license terms are updated in 5-year blocks.[12]"
19:02:32 <comex> it doesn't matter!
19:02:51 <pikhq> comex: All of this only applies to the patents in the MPEG LA patent pool.
19:02:59 <pikhq> It is always possible for there to be a patent outside of it.
19:03:07 <comex> yeah, then you can sue the world
19:03:12 <comex> because by 2015 (really, by 2011 most likely) there will be more widespread support for VP8, hopefully
19:03:21 <comex> even though the x264 guy says VP8 sucks
19:03:46 <comex> then apple will support it in another 10 years
19:03:47 <pikhq> VP8 almost certainly violates patents. There do not exist nontrivial programs that don't, at this rate.
19:03:54 <pikhq> There's fucking patents on linked lists.
19:04:29 <comex> lists that have multiple links in order to be traversed in multiple ways
19:04:38 <comex> of course, that patent is probably invalid and wouldn't stand up in court
19:05:19 <pikhq> Big deal. US court system means that a party without a lot of money loses by default.
19:05:45 <alise> dark shikari is cool
19:05:52 <alise> but i don't think he cares about the legal implications of ... anything...
19:05:57 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
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19:08:40 <comex> alise: I believe he lives in a country where he doesn't have to
19:09:21 <pikhq> comex: As x264 does not do binary releases, they barely get around US patent laws.
19:09:53 <pikhq> Since it's not compiled, they've not actually implemented the patent, merely written a description of the patent.
19:09:55 <alise> My point is that using x264 is only practical for those doing illegal things anyway -- like making encodings of TV shows.
19:10:01 <pikhq> US patent law is fucking retarded.
19:10:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:10:24 <alise> pikhq: What if they shipped it with a compiler binary and a program that would run the compiler on any source files in its vicinity?
19:10:37 <alise> Compiler: legal, obviously; program that runs a compiler no matter where it is: legal, obviously; description: legal.
19:10:50 <pikhq> alise: Whether or not you would win that case is a function of how much money you have to blow.
19:11:04 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:11:18 <alise> Is it technically legal, though?
19:11:32 <alise> No component is illegal -- does the whole thing constitute an implementation? Nobody says you have to run the compiler script.
19:12:18 <pikhq> It may be perfectly clear. It may be an implementation. The script *itself* might violate a patent on automating compilation of a program.
19:12:52 <pikhq> It is, in short, impossible to know if any program is legal.
19:30:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, one could argue that the binary file is a bunch of perfectly legal bits stuck together.
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19:33:56 <alise> 1 is illegal but 0 is okay
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19:39:10 <alise> BLARGH SOFTWARE SUCKS
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19:47:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You'd know har har
19:47:58 <alise> Stay classy, alise
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19:48:36 <Rugxulo> http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?QBFORTH
19:48:49 <Rugxulo> http://www.staticramlinux.com/
19:49:16 <alise> Gregor-L: Legally, yes; but technically?
19:49:19 <alise> It's certainly superior to Theora.
19:49:24 <Gregor-L> Technically it's friggin' amazing.
19:49:30 <Rugxulo> actually, here's another: http://sta.li/
19:49:37 <alise> Rugxulo: I know of sta.li; I'm a fan of the suckless guys.
19:49:43 <Rugxulo> what, haven't heard of WebM yet?
19:49:51 <Rugxulo> alise, I thought so, just making sure
19:50:00 <alise> Gregor-L: We need to assrape the H.264 owners until they decide to open it up :P
19:50:11 <alise> Isn't WebM based on VP8-- yep
19:50:28 <Gregor-L> <alise> Gregor-L: We need to assrape the H.264 owners until they decide to open it up :P // I like this no matter WHAT context you interpret it in!
19:50:48 <alise> Gregor-L: We did not need to know that ... but when will the fanfiction be done?
19:51:13 <alise> Rugxulo: Hey, that QBFORTH was written by our very own zzo38!
19:51:24 <alise> Link to his journal is broken though.
19:51:49 <alise> Gregor-L: What, exactly, are you apploading :P
19:52:32 <Rugxulo> alise: argh! that link worked for me
19:52:45 <Rugxulo> he even compiled it, too (QB4.5)
19:52:54 <alise> Gregor-L: Does zzo38 just generate an applaudy reaction in you?
19:52:57 <Rugxulo> funny curiosity, even if I don't really know Forth ;-)
19:53:03 <Gregor-L> alise: No, just the way you said it :P
19:53:13 <Gregor-L> Like he was about to come out on stage and take a bow.
19:53:31 <alise> He seems to have deleted or at least elided the entry from his journal.
19:53:37 <alise> Either that or the file disappeared.
19:53:55 <alise> Gregor-L: By our very own.... ZEEED ZED OHHH (thirtyeight)!
19:54:38 <Rugxulo> http://rapidshare.com/files/390783825/qbforth.zip.html
19:54:38 <Rugxulo> MD5: 9BAE75C6AB6AF45949BE9262350A36EE
19:54:43 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
19:55:10 <Rugxulo> actually, there's a Perl Forth, a Bash Forth, so it's not that odd ;-)
19:56:29 <alise> In the tradition of promoting redditor-run sites that try to do the same thing as existing sites but that don't suck: http://filevo.com/
19:57:01 <Rugxulo> huh, Forthfreak wiki lets you upload, interesting
20:00:01 <Rugxulo> gah, my wifi connection keeps flaking out
20:00:40 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webm
20:01:37 <alise> The only issue is that VP8 sucks balls... and is also patented
20:01:48 <alise> It's just that the H.264 guys are more open about their patents :P
20:02:02 <pikhq> alise: Only in comparison to H.264.
20:02:14 <pikhq> Which is the best video compression format in existence...
20:02:20 <alise> Apart from the lossless ones!
20:02:32 <Rugxulo> Theora and WebM can't both be patented, how can MPEG-LA have a patent on every video format ever to exist??
20:02:46 -!- coppro has joined.
20:02:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: MPEG-LA probably doesn't have all the patents that apply to H.264.
20:02:57 <alise> Rugxulo: It's not just MPEG-LA.
20:03:05 <alise> the patents on VP8 are well-known iirc
20:03:09 <pikhq> Just the ones that are being claimed to apply to H.264 in public.
20:03:29 * Rugxulo wants to force everyone to go back to VIC-20 times, suffer with only 3.5k of RAM, then when they get tired of that, to decide whether they want to play fairly or not
20:03:34 <pikhq> alise: No, the only ones confirmed are ones that Google has granted a royalty-free license for.
20:03:58 <pikhq> Though MPEG-LA *is* busy going "What a lovely codec you have there. Wouldn't it be a shame if something were to... Happen to it?"
20:04:34 <Rugxulo> it's crazy, we live in a Linux world with lots of openness ... and yet other people are still crazy as loons
20:04:36 <alise> I read that in Snape's voice -- theory -- MPEG-LA is Snape.
20:04:43 <alise> Harry Potter is a metaphor for video encoding, and software patents.
20:04:49 <Rugxulo> have they learned nothing? (apparently)
20:04:49 <pikhq> alise: Should've been a mobster voice.
20:04:53 <alise> I don't know how Voldemort is.
20:05:20 <alise> Speaking of Linux, Ubuntu 10.04 is nice!
20:05:47 <Rugxulo> patents are worse than just being proprietary!
20:05:47 <Rugxulo> it's one thing to not share, it's another to prevent completely independent works to exist
20:06:07 <Rugxulo> haven't tried it, heard some stuff is better but some regressions still exist
20:06:52 <alise> I think audio should work fine but I don't hae speakers in
20:06:57 <alise> It registers volume and everything
20:07:07 <Rugxulo> there are still many PulseAudio haters
20:07:09 <alise> The new themes finally make the thing look half-decent which is nice
20:07:15 <alise> Rugxulo: yeah you can just uninstall it if you don't like it
20:07:17 <alise> but i really don't care
20:07:26 <alise> the thing i do hate is that flash video/audio is desynched
20:07:36 <alise> this may be pulseaudio, or the fact that the plugin is 32-bit and my install is 64-bit
20:07:38 <alise> it's annoying though
20:07:42 <alise> pulseaudio is quite high latency iirc so...
20:09:46 <Rugxulo> startup speed is better, no?
20:10:16 <alise> much better to login screen -- there is a quite large lag of nothing happening between logging in to desktop, but that constitutes the entire log in time, so maybe it is just delaying showing it
20:10:19 <alise> and this machine is old and futzy anyway
20:10:23 <alise> so i wouldn't rely on its experiences
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20:36:38 <pikhq> "Jim Davis has stated that he created Garfield with the sole intention of making money. He decided to create a strip that would be popular with the masses, in order to be commercially successful."
20:37:47 <alise> ais523: he's single-handedly lowered the quality of comics!
20:38:11 <pikhq> Have you ever *read* Garfield?
20:38:28 <pikhq> It's pretty amazingly poor.
20:38:39 <alise> Don't go appearing like that without me knowing!
20:38:39 <ais523> yep, haven't seen you for ages
20:38:44 <ais523> probably due to missing each other
20:38:48 <alise> Wait, you haven't joined in...
20:38:51 <alise> How long have you been here? :P
20:39:17 <ais523> I've been to Canada and back
20:39:37 <ais523> then spent a week alternately asleep and preparing for the Pokémon World Championship qualifiers
20:39:42 <ais523> because they're in Birmingham this year
20:39:54 <ais523> and, I mean, how hard can it be?
20:40:33 <pikhq> Card game or video game?
20:40:47 <pikhq> You're going to get schooled.
20:40:59 <ais523> pikhq: heh, I was 6th in the world on the online practice simulator for a while
20:41:11 <pikhq> Tournament Pokemon players take the game to fairly absurd heights.
20:41:28 <ais523> so I just had to come up with something even more absurd
20:41:49 <pikhq> Such as spending hundreds of hours to maximise the stats on your team?
20:42:03 <ais523> it's taken me about 5 so far
20:42:06 <ais523> with only one member to go
20:42:14 <pikhq> You've not maximised the stats.
20:42:16 <ais523> (hint: the Pokémon RNG has been broken for a couple of years)
20:42:29 <pikhq> Oh, it was broken? Okay, that changes things.
20:42:45 <ais523> it's a pain trying to get the timings /just right/
20:42:57 <ais523> but if you keep trying, you can hit a 1/60 second interval after about an hour of trying
20:42:58 <pikhq> You've got *a good chance* of getting schooled, then.
20:43:42 <pikhq> Keep in mind, you're playing against the kind of guys who come up with ways to have omnipotence in D&D.
20:44:01 <ais523> pikhq: I know at least 3 of said guys
20:44:18 <ais523> and at least 2 of said methods, although not in detail
20:44:18 <pikhq> Then you have a clue what you're getting into, then.
20:44:29 <ais523> just I like to act like a noob because it's funny
20:44:43 <pikhq> Which leaves me with one last piece of advice, then.
20:45:41 <ais523> (did you know that the second turn of drowning in D&D sets your hitpoints to 0? it's the only known way to recover from minus arbitrarily large HP in the turn you have before dying, and part of one of the omnipotence combos)
20:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume this omnipotence is a closely guarded secret.
20:48:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's called Pun-Pun.
20:48:59 <ais523> the other method I know involves a kobold build that can transform into a kobold with slightly better stats, which can transform into a kobold with slightly better stats...
20:49:14 <ais523> and for some reason it only works with kobolds, although I can't remember why
20:49:54 <pikhq> ais523: You get an ability that works on "scaly ones" that lets you modify yourself.
20:50:16 <pikhq> It works on any vaguely reptilian race, kobolds are just the easiest such race to use.
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20:51:35 <pikhq> Also, IIRC, that was a bucket of water, a spell that lets you prevent yourself from dying from damage for a couple of turns, an *infinite damage loop*, and some spell that gave you extra stuff for the amount of damage you got.
20:52:04 <pikhq> Oh, and a way to make the temporary bonuses permanent.
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20:52:51 <pikhq> There's yet another way of doing it. Polymorph. Awaken. Restoration. Repeat.
20:53:10 <pikhq> D&D is so broken it's not even funny.
20:53:37 <ais523> strangely, nobody's managed to break Pokémon yet
20:53:42 <ais523> and it's not for lack of trying
20:54:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No nerd war. Just nerding.
20:54:05 <zzo38> D&D can be broken in this way, but there are different players some player prefer a different way
20:54:13 <pikhq> It's a very well-known fact that D&D is incredibly not-balanced.
20:54:16 <zzo38> And anyways, any rule can be override if there is too much wrong
20:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that the wide variety of stuff would make Pokemon resilient to breakage.
20:54:31 <zzo38> It is certainly correct that D&D is not balanced, however.
20:54:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you'd expect a wide variety to make things more easily broken, in fact
20:55:02 <zzo38> Semi-gestalter class hopefully makes it a bit more balanced however
20:55:05 <ais523> for instance Wobbuffet turned out to be unexpectedly broken in singles
20:55:05 <pikhq> But a paper-and-pen RPG doesn't need to be balanced, it just needs to have enough structure to let players have fun.
20:55:26 <ais523> although the championships are doubles, so you can't exploit it
20:55:27 <pikhq> And not stop them *from* having fun.
20:55:32 <zzo38> Yes, basically. Although balanced can helps a bit
20:56:19 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG should be more balanced however in some ways, due to some of the difficulties involved in casting spells and so on.
20:56:49 <zzo38> I have heard of ways to do aleph-one damage in one turn
20:57:07 <zzo38> As well as ways to permanently transform your character into a sandwich
20:57:39 <ais523> the second is possible even in D&D, isn't it?
20:57:54 <ais523> just stack a bunch of polymorph any object spells
20:57:56 <zzo38> Both of these things refer to D&D
20:58:57 <ais523> it probably wasn't deliberate
20:59:01 <ais523> the rules are rather self-contradictory anyway
20:59:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: RPG system writers manage to do some really, really funny things by accident.
20:59:50 <zzo38> Even Icosahedral RPG rules has one deliberately contradictory rule, however, which is called the Fundamental Rule: All rules have exceptions, including this one.
21:00:19 <pikhq> For instance, in D&D there exists the Peasant Railgun. You can have a line of people with readied actions to hand an object in front of them. Readied actions, when triggered, happen immediately.
21:00:40 <pikhq> Thus, with a line of people long enough, you can send any object any distance in 3 seconds.
21:00:49 <pikhq> (that being the granularity of D&D)
21:00:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Of course, that is a rule you have to override in that circumstance because it is obviously wrong in that case.
21:00:54 <ais523> pikhq: how many friends do you share with me?
21:01:04 <ais523> I've heard exactly the same stories, with almost exactly the same wording
21:01:09 <pikhq> ais523: I don't know, actually.
21:01:11 <ais523> presumably these things are just memes that spread around in gaming circles
21:01:11 <zzo38> There are many rules in D&D you have to override, especially since you can make up any new situation with new ideas
21:01:20 <pikhq> ais523: These ones are just common knowledge in gaming circles.
21:01:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Except, of course, when it is sufficiently amusing.
21:02:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ... You're too lonely to play D&D? Now that's sad.
21:02:43 <zzo38> I play D&D sometimes
21:02:59 <zzo38> My character cannot do very much damage in one turn, but that's OK, I don't need
21:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, more that the couple of friends I have aren't even remotely interested.
21:03:17 <zzo38> I can increase my armor class a lot in one turn, however.
21:03:24 <pikhq> zzo38: DPS is only worth it when it's entertaining, of course.
21:03:42 <zzo38> pikhq: What does DPS means?
21:03:49 <pikhq> Damage-Per-Second.
21:03:59 <pikhq> Used to refer to a character build based on maximising that.
21:04:19 <pikhq> See: most roll-players.
21:04:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is what some people like to do, but different people like to play differently
21:05:23 <zzo38> I play it differently, planning ahead too much and using such things as Zwischenzug and so on.
21:05:41 <zzo38> I also try to avoid to kill someone, usually.
21:06:01 <zzo38> That alone makes the game a lot more intricate.
21:09:09 <alise> <ais523> I've been to Canada and back
21:09:14 <alise> dammit I want to be in Canada!
21:09:31 <ais523> it was a relatively pointless experience, really
21:11:11 <zzo38> And I am already in Canada.
21:11:33 <alise> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ... You're too lonely to play D&D? Now that's sad.
21:11:46 <alise> Me too; I have 0 real-life friends. Well, that's not true, I have about four but that's just because I met up with some internet friends.
21:12:03 <alise> zzo38: can you provide me with lodging :|
21:12:13 <zzo38> alise: I don't think so.
21:12:26 <alise> ais523: hmm... idea
21:12:34 <alise> ais523: international nomic competitions; every game is two-player nomic
21:12:37 <alise> played in person, in real time
21:12:49 <ais523> you'd need a pretty robust initial moveset
21:12:54 <alise> perhaps in the later stages, the initial ruleset gets harder and harder to work with
21:12:59 <ais523> and I fear that with two, people would constantly vote down each other's proposals
21:13:00 <alise> requiring greater nomic skill
21:13:04 <ais523> because it's clearly the best strategy
21:13:09 <ais523> so nothing would ever happen
21:13:12 <alise> ais523: okay then, four -- or perhaps some mechanism to make this not happen somehow
21:13:17 <alise> such as penalties for voting against
21:13:50 <zzo38> Can you use an odd number of players, such as three or five players?
21:14:06 <ais523> I've even seen a solitaire version of Nomic online
21:14:11 <zzo38> I know some five players card games, such as Napoleon
21:14:19 <ais523> where the initial rules had huge restrictions on proposals, and the idea was to win in the minimum number of turns
21:14:33 <alise> ais523: what were you in canada for, btw?
21:14:54 <alise> apart from Agoran diplomatic relations
21:16:03 <alise> ais523: WHY WASN'T I INVITED :p
21:16:18 <ais523> because you hadn't submitted a paper to it?
21:16:29 <zzo38> What conference is that?
21:17:09 <zzo38> When you play D&D, is there a big monster with three tentacles in your party (perhaps NPC)?
21:17:22 <alise> That's only in the D&D 3.4Hentai edition.
21:18:02 <zzo38> Does such an edition exist?
21:18:09 <zzo38> I play 3.5 edition
21:18:11 <pikhq> alise: That *sort* of thing actually exists. Don't recall the name of the splat book in question, though.
21:18:33 <alise> I hope such an edition doesn't exist but, well...
21:18:44 <ais523> zzo38: Mathematical Foundations of Programming Semantics
21:18:55 <zzo38> Either way, my question did not mean such things as that
21:20:15 <zzo38> ais523: Thanks, what are some of the things discussed in that conference?
21:20:28 <ais523> it was mostly about mathematical models of programming
21:20:35 <ais523> much of it was extremely technical
21:20:42 <zzo38> I mean more specific
21:21:18 <alise> Argh, I hate the SCP wiki!
21:21:21 <ais523> game semantics, categorical models of programming-related structures
21:21:29 <pikhq> alise: Amazing time-waste, isn't it?
21:21:42 <alise> pikhq: Amazing FUCK FUCK FUCK WHY AM I LOOKING AROUND -- IT'S DARK NOW, I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SLEEP --
21:21:47 <alise> -- I CANNOT LEAVE THIS ROOM -- I --
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21:22:17 <zzo38> Surely you sleep when dark
21:22:44 <pikhq> There's scary shit there.
21:22:50 <zzo38> No, I sleep even when reading SCP wiki
21:23:00 <zzo38> It doesn't stop me from doing so
21:23:57 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: No, that has nothing to do with it
21:24:41 <zzo38> Clearly most things described there are impossible. But perhaps me or someone can figure out if some of these things are in fact possible or partially possible just to see if it is or not
21:24:53 <zzo38> And you can make thought experiment even for impossible things, I suppose?
21:25:16 <zzo38> And they keep deleting files!
21:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> My problem is that my rational mind legs it once the lights are off.
21:25:55 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Legs what?
21:26:22 <zzo38> (I am not superman and my D&D character is not superman either)
21:26:31 <alise> legs it, i.e. runs away
21:27:24 <zzo38> You can be rational mind becoming mixed up while sleeping, but if you are so, you are sleeping, once you wake up fully you are OK?
21:28:09 <zzo38> (At least to me it is, usually)
21:29:34 <zzo38> Sometimes when I sleep I know I am sleeping, but sometimes I forgot and I don't think so.
21:31:28 <ais523> there are various ways to determine if you're sleeping
21:31:36 <ais523> one way is to attempt to read something that's written
21:31:49 <ais523> you'll find you have to concentrate on the letters for the words to be made of letters, rather than just words
21:31:55 <zzo38> Things like this do not actually always work.
21:32:25 <zzo38> Sometimes you would forget that is the case
21:32:29 <zzo38> That's what happens when you sleep
21:35:30 <zzo38> I made some changes in Spider Tarot, you could fix it more if you think there is another mistake, sprunge TfgQ
21:40:24 <zzo38> Is it possible on Linux to set a user to have multiple groups?
21:41:15 <ais523> users have one "primary group" but they can be in any number of other groups as well
21:45:47 <alise> <ais523> you'll find you have to concentrate on the letters for the words to be made of letters, rather than just words
21:45:51 <alise> you can't even read words in dreams
21:45:56 <alise> they simply are not there
21:46:16 <ais523> perhaps it affects different people differently
21:46:18 <alise> definitely; try to read a book in a dream sometime, even when lucid
21:46:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the answer to "how do you know you are dreaming": reality checks
21:46:41 <alise> try lucid dreaming some time. it's very interesting
21:46:49 <alise> always freaks me out though: knowing the imperfections in this constructed reality.
21:47:53 <zzo38> Sometimes it works, sometimes you don't know, sometimes it seems to work but can't, but you forgot until you are wake up
21:48:04 <Sgeo__> alise, you are dreaming right now. Do a reality check.
21:48:27 <alise> Sgeo__: I can read text perfectly fine, colour is incredibly vibrant, and I've experienced no sort of realisation that I'm dreaming.
21:48:32 <alise> And both of my hands have the correct number of fingers.
21:48:39 <alise> I cannot breath while holding my nose.
21:48:46 <alise> Clocks are staying the same between looks.
21:49:23 <zzo38> (Did you think there is still a mistake in the Spider Tarot implementation file?)
21:49:29 <Sgeo__> I find that I can read text in my dreams. Usually, I try to pass a finger through a palm
21:49:53 <ais523> one relatively easy way is to choose to wake up
21:49:57 <zzo38> I find it changes every time
21:50:02 <ais523> that nearly always works if you're asleep, just you rarely think of doing it
21:50:08 <zzo38> Even if you choose to wake up sometimes it cannot work, but sometimes it can
21:50:16 <Sgeo__> I think you are supposed to do a reality check when you find your thoughts turning to thoughts about dreaming
21:50:16 <ais523> if you're awake, it obviously does nothing
21:50:18 <zzo38> Even if I know I am sleep!
21:51:00 <Sgeo__> It's been a while since I've had a lucid dream
21:51:08 <alise> ais523: but the whole point of lucid dreaming is that you DON'T want to wake up
21:51:16 <uorygl> I think I had a lucid dream the night before last.
21:51:19 <alise> anyway, I can't do things like passing fingers through a palm I don't think
21:51:22 <uorygl> Or maybe the night before that.
21:51:25 <alise> but I always have >5 fingers
21:51:31 <ais523> alise: if you don't want to wake up, why care if you're awake or asleep?
21:51:31 <alise> and they're sometimes in strange places on my hand
21:51:40 <alise> ais523: because if you realise you're dreaming, you can control the dreamworld
21:51:44 <uorygl> Yeah, I seem to consistently have too many fingers.
21:51:54 <ais523> perhaps you should try to control it the JS way
21:51:57 <alise> ais523: Or do you not see the appeal of being god in a universe that can defy physical laws?
21:52:02 <ais523> test to see if you can control the universe by thinking at it
21:52:04 <ais523> not for being awake or asleep
21:52:10 <alise> To have an experience entirely specific to your wishes?
21:52:21 <uorygl> ais523: well, that's one reality check.
21:52:24 <alise> You can only affect the universe in a lucid dream if you really think it will work.
21:52:29 <alise> This is hard to do without first knowing you're dreaming.
21:52:35 <alise> Otherwise you'd have to think it'll really work in real life too; then you would be insane.
21:52:45 <ais523> perhaps it does work in real life
21:52:50 <ais523> just nobody believes it strongly enough to make it happen
21:52:51 <alise> Aaaand he turns insane
21:53:09 <uorygl> ais523: perhaps, but there's no reason to think so.
21:53:28 <ais523> but this is #esoteric, I like questioning assumptions
21:53:44 <uorygl> Consider it questioned. :P
21:54:04 <alise> ais523: have you never had a lucid dream?
21:54:13 <alise> your suggestions about reality checks seem to suggest you hadn't
21:54:17 <ais523> often I didn't realise I was dreaming at the time
21:54:18 <alise> ais523: ok, have you ever /wanted/ to have one?
21:54:24 <alise> err... that's not lucid
21:54:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I question that this is the forum for questioning assumptions!
21:54:28 <alise> lucid dreaming = dreaming & aware dreaming
21:54:38 <ais523> although sometimes I wanted to continue them once I realised I was asleep, and continued
21:54:49 <ais523> alise: ah, to me, lucid dreaming = dreaming where you control your actoins
21:54:54 <ais523> and the world around you
21:55:00 <alise> ais523: you do in every dream, just not very intelligently (control your actions)
21:55:00 <ais523> you don't need to know you're asleep to do that
21:55:07 <ais523> not really, not for me
21:55:08 <uorygl> The idea of having a lucid dream makes me want to have a lucid dream!
21:55:09 <alise> well your definition is wrong :-)
21:55:13 <alise> I can't continue with dream plots after I become lucid
21:55:16 <alise> just can't get into the zone
21:55:20 <alise> my problem is: I can never get clearness
21:55:22 <uorygl> And the idea of wanting something makes me want to do something else. :P
21:55:27 <alise> I do the spinning, which is supposed to help; everything is still cloudy.
21:55:34 <alise> Touch and stare at bricks and other detailed objects: doesn't help.
21:55:35 <ais523> I think we both dream pretty differently
21:55:37 <AnMaster> alise, as in plotter or as in story?
21:55:39 <alise> Try and keep doing things rationally: doesn't help.
21:55:45 <alise> Then it goes all fuzzy and I wake up.
21:55:46 <alise> AnMaster: Story....
21:56:02 * AnMaster imagines a plotter plotting graphs of dreams
21:56:05 <ais523> alise: that's because you're too logical, I think
21:56:12 <ais523> dream plots normally aren't self-consistent
21:56:26 <alise> oh, I can do totally illogical things afterwards
21:56:29 <ais523> I can imagine you're the sort of person who'd notice, and that would screw up lucid reality
21:56:33 <alise> but I lose all sympathy for the characters in the dream
21:56:36 <zzo38> Dream plots are never self-consistent, even if you think it is
21:56:36 <ais523> because you know it isn't real
21:56:36 <alise> and care not one bit about the plot
21:56:37 <AnMaster> I almost never remember my dreams
21:56:44 <AnMaster> and as far as I know I never had a lucid one
21:56:45 <zzo38> If you think it is that is because you are inconsistent
21:56:55 <ais523> I don't think you can have a sensible illusion of reality unless you think it's real
21:57:00 <alise> It's funny the limitations on my current lucid abilities.
21:57:16 <alise> I can jump out of a window and glide to the ground; I can manage some sort of limited, crappy low gliding-flight.
21:57:25 <alise> I cannot change my surroundings at will or cause things to appear.
21:57:32 <AnMaster> alise, before you do that make sure it actually is a lucid dream
21:57:36 <alise> AnMaster: Of course.
21:57:42 <alise> Incidentally, if you ever notice you have more fingers than usual in a dream:
21:57:43 <ais523> hmm, my flight abilities were generally limited to floating down staircases
21:57:47 <alise> Touch the strange ones.
21:57:49 <alise> You will FEEL TEM!
21:57:55 <ais523> although I could make the staircases appear at will, so it was less limited than it might feel
21:57:56 <alise> But, it will feel like a tingling, faint and strange.
21:57:59 <alise> It definitely feels alien.
21:58:04 <alise> But still, there is sensation.
21:58:13 <AnMaster> alise, I never been aware of dreaming while dreaming so..
21:58:13 <alise> You can sense six or more fingers.
21:58:24 <alise> AnMaster: most people do
21:58:35 <AnMaster> alise, yeah but recursive dreams are pretty strange
21:58:42 <alise> ais523: Apparently if you can make a mirror or similar appear with your desired dreamworld in it, you can enter it to go there
21:58:49 <alise> also, apparently thinking of a place and spinning around will get you there too
21:58:50 <AnMaster> like dreaming you wake up, and you don't
21:58:59 <alise> dreamworlds are like all the silly magic fantasies ... working
21:59:05 <ais523> for me it just needed a place in dreamworld geography
21:59:16 <zzo38> I sometimes have very recursive dreams
21:59:27 <AnMaster> alise, what about clapping your hands and believing in faeries? ;P
21:59:28 <ais523> zzo38: more than two levels?
21:59:34 <ais523> I used to do two levels a lot, although it hasn't recently
21:59:46 <AnMaster> I think I actually had 3 levels once
21:59:47 <alise> AnMaster: That might even work.
21:59:48 <ais523> mostly, waking up, getting ready, etc, then waking up again and being annoyed at having to do it all all over again
21:59:57 <ais523> obviously I didn't know I was asleep at the time (and it wasn't lucid)
21:59:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, more than two levels. I don't remember exactly but I think perhaps seven levels
21:59:59 <alise> Side-note, apparently dream sex is better than the real thing.
22:00:05 <ais523> zzo38: that's impressive
22:00:06 <alise> Good luck getting lucid enough to do that though.
22:00:14 <alise> zzo38: how on earth did you keep track?
22:00:20 <ais523> alise: I expect it's better than the real thing by definition
22:00:26 <AnMaster> alise, what about dream sex without being lucid?
22:00:29 <ais523> it's what you want to have from sex, not what sex actually is
22:00:30 <alise> ais523: Well, it depends.
22:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Please, for the love of god, tell me you don't actually know.
22:00:41 <alise> I suppose if you have a bad imagination you'd find it hard to think of what you want from sex.
22:00:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I don't :P
22:00:48 <zzo38> alise: I don't know how. I don't actually remember so I guessed
22:01:01 <zzo38> But that is the best I can remember
22:01:08 <ais523> zzo38: maybe it was only two levels, but seven equalled two in that dreamworld
22:02:11 <alise> ais523: Of course, an issue with lucid dreams is that the characters can never be realistic.
22:02:20 <zzo38> Of course such things are possible, but that isn't what I can remember (of course it is not possibly to remember exactly the dreams)
22:02:21 <alise> Because your subconscious will be maintaining them; at best they'll be poor copies of you.
22:02:28 <ais523> people aren't realistic in real life either, though
22:02:30 <alise> Or even unrealistic in an interesting way
22:02:38 <zzo38> Seven is just the approximate number. But I know it was something close to that number
22:02:46 <alise> One thing I'd like to do in a dream is to get powerful enough to be able to set pi to 3.
22:02:57 <alise> I imagine my vision will go all fucked up and then I'll wake up. :)
22:03:00 <ais523> you'd need to know the consequences
22:03:03 <alise> ais523: not really
22:03:04 <ais523> or be able to work them out
22:03:16 <ais523> it's your own mind doing the calculations, after all
22:03:19 <alise> ais523: my mind would just go on my naive "dream" expectation of what would happen if pi became 3
22:03:29 <ais523> circles becoming hexagons, etc?
22:03:30 <AnMaster> what are the consequences of pi = 3?
22:03:31 <alise> which is, everything goes fucked up and the universe is destroyed
22:03:42 <alise> ais523: I don't think my mind can perceive a non-pi pi
22:03:49 <alise> AnMaster: nothing much; it's simply false.
22:03:55 <alise> pi isn't a constant you can change
22:03:59 <alise> just a consequence
22:04:22 <alise> The universe is only locally Euclidean.
22:04:27 <alise> Pi is in Euclidean geometry.
22:04:48 <uorygl> AnMaster: everything is a consequence of pi = 3.
22:04:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: O rly?
22:05:00 <alise> And anyway, I said locally. As in locally.
22:05:18 <zzo38> Pi has the value it has regardless of geometry. You just have to use it different ways in different geometries.
22:05:20 <alise> Locally as in "visual proofs work if you look at them".
22:05:29 <alise> zzo38: Yes, but pi as the ratio that it is.
22:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but the ratio of the circumference to the diameter changes.
22:05:51 <uorygl> I like the "circles are hexagons" consequence of pi = 3.
22:06:05 <AnMaster> uorygl, then what would hexagons become?
22:06:09 <alise> AnMaster: Do you just hate Euler?
22:06:23 <alise> AnMaster: His identity.
22:06:31 <alise> You're RUINING it!
22:07:36 <uorygl> Hmm, I think that a number of the form a^(bi) where a and b are real numbers always has absolute value 1.
22:07:46 * alise installs sage to try it.
22:07:51 <alise> Try sage, not what uorygl said.
22:08:13 <uorygl> Now I'm confident that that's true for positive a.
22:08:40 <uorygl> And it's clearly false for a = 0.
22:08:53 <alise> sage is a mush of CASs with a bad python frontend
22:09:01 <alise> I'm tired of Mathematica's UI on Linux.
22:09:06 <uorygl> As for negative a, my intuition stops there. :P
22:09:11 <alise> :( sagemath is no longer in Ubuntu, it seems
22:09:19 <uorygl> Though I remember that (-1)^i is a biggish real number.
22:09:37 <uorygl> Oh, it's actaully a smallish one. Bah.
22:09:47 <alise> duck duck go is so awesome
22:10:20 <uorygl> Eh, complex exponentiation is multivalued.
22:10:40 <uorygl> As far as I know, (-1)^i and e^-pi have all the same values.
22:11:05 <uorygl> Though, obviously, e^-pi has a certain interpretation as the exp function.
22:17:47 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
22:19:41 <alise> So, um, why do all CASs suck?
22:20:32 <Ilari_antrcomp> Because the problems are undecidable unless one approximates?
22:20:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:20:59 <alise> No; you don't use a CAS for such problems (and they try very hard to never return approximated results).
22:21:07 <alise> It's because they suck, is the answer.
22:21:24 <alise> They fall into two categories: Closed source thinsg that can do what you want, but with a lot of fluff, some fundamental issues, and horrible UIs;
22:21:40 <alise> and open source ones with a decent foundation, no UI whatsoever, and extremely limited capabilities.
22:21:55 <alise> If I were a crazy man I would say that I should start a project to create a decent open-source CAS -- I am a crazy man.
22:22:05 <Ilari_antrcomp> "Approximates" meaning one has to take some shortcuts.
22:22:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:23:08 <alise> Mm. But I don't think that's why they suck; it's unavoidable.
22:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:33:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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22:35:10 <alise> I think it uses Maxima for some things.
22:35:51 <alise> 1.2 MiB/s, oh yeah.
22:36:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because Sage has a nicer interface and can also associate with other packages.
22:36:03 <alise> Maxima itself is very limited.
22:36:17 <alise> Maybe I should give Symbolics mucho moneys and get myself a copy of Macsyma (predecessor of Maxima) :-)
22:36:28 <alise> Or, ooh, go back to the 70s A.I. Lab and use AUTOMATH!
22:37:06 <alise> But it's cooler. It ran on Lisp Machines for fuck's sake!
22:37:32 <alise> You can still buy them!
22:37:54 <alise> http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt $675 to $3,500.
22:37:59 <alise> And they're still amazing.
22:38:26 <alise> My life dream, man. My life dream.
22:38:29 <alise> Apart from my other ones
22:39:18 <alise> Building the perfect CAS, building the perfect OS, building the perfect interface...
22:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Not, like, solving the Reimann hypothesis or anything?
22:39:48 <alise> Build the singularity...
22:39:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I was getting there!
22:40:11 <alise> I don't believe that I could solve the Riemann hypothesis, anyway.
22:40:39 <alise> Although I did fancy once proving it independent of ZFC, as a big ha-ha-fuck-you to both camps.
22:40:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But the singularity will do the rest for you... at least the ones that are still relevant.
22:41:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:41:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, make sure it's Friendly.
22:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you can throw the "friendly" out of the window, then.
22:41:36 <alise> STARRING ELIEZER YUDKOWSKY AS HIMSELF...
22:41:44 <alise> Coming to a mind near you...
22:42:06 <alise> Also featuring Robin Hanson and uorygl (for comic relief).
22:42:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh, I don't see Eliezer as a cult leader.
22:42:26 <alise> It's not his fault people idolise him.
22:42:38 <alise> Pretty sure oerjan wants nothing to do with the singularity; he believes in god anyway :)
22:43:01 <alise> Steady on, Philip Pullman.
22:43:38 <alise> I think it's Goedel you're thinking of there, not god
22:43:45 <uorygl> alise: is Hansom part of the comic relief crew?
22:44:08 <uorygl> That's what I get for typing with one hand and one finger.
22:44:19 <alise> uorygl: No, he's just a raving scientist on the side.
22:44:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fax is secretly god.
22:44:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:35 <alise> She just has problems coming up with proofs of his own existence... and really hates humans
22:45:10 <uorygl> The Riemann hypothesis seems like the sort of thing that's definitely either true or false.
22:45:24 <uorygl> Hmm, I should add some more "definitely"s.
22:45:33 <uorygl> That's definitely either definitely true or definitely false.
22:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I've often wondered what the undecidability of the RH would imply.
22:45:50 <alise> uorygl: Be careful.
22:45:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it would obviously be decidable if a counterexample existed.
22:46:06 <alise> There was some hypothesis, I forget what,
22:46:15 <alise> where a case for n=m was proven
22:46:20 <alise> but then n=m+1 or such was proved independent
22:46:22 <alise> without anyone expecting it
22:47:31 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 502M 2010-05-23 22:45 sage-4.4.2-linux-64bit-ubuntu_10.04_lts-x86_64-Linux.tar.gz
22:47:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a real boy.
22:47:52 <alise> THERE ARE NO STRINGS TO HOLD ME DOWN--
22:49:00 <alise> Is it how many gigs when expanded?
22:49:54 * uorygl interprets that literally before realizing that the non-literal interpretation is a lot more likely.
22:49:57 <alise> All this for a system inferior to the commercial CASs.
22:50:04 <alise> uorygl: Interprets what literally?
22:50:20 <uorygl> I thought Phantom_Hoover meant "one gigabyte plus one bit".
22:50:33 <alise> Sage now lives in ~/research/2010-05/sage; a rather unassuming directory name for the behemoth it is.
22:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I think a lot of the cruft is pointless copies of libraries you almost certainly already have.
22:51:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:51:35 <alise> No; too slow and... impersonal.
22:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Though the offline version takes an ungodly time to load.
22:52:09 <uorygl> I wonder what directory name would suggest that it contains a lot.
22:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And god help you if you are foolish enough to *move* it.
22:52:36 <uorygl> /var/aggregated-database/sage
22:52:45 <alise> That was worth it.
22:53:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, it did that just now :)
22:53:15 <alise> Took a few minutes
22:53:35 <alise> sage: solve(a==1+(1/a), a)
22:53:35 <alise> [a == -1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2, a == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2]
22:53:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's the date subdivision that does the little-soundingness, I think.
22:54:31 <uorygl> You could be a bit more subtle.
22:54:55 <alise> sage: (golden_ratio == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2).full_simplify()
22:54:55 <alise> 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2 == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2
22:55:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
22:55:30 <alise> Please choose a new password for the Sage Notebook 'admin' user.
22:55:31 <alise> Do _not_ choose a stupid password, since anybody who could guess your password
22:55:31 <alise> and connect to your machine could access or delete your files.
22:55:31 <alise> NOTE: Only the md5 hash of the password you type is stored by Sage.
22:55:31 <alise> You can change your password by typing notebook(reset=True).
22:55:57 <uorygl> MD5 is quite broken these days.
22:56:09 <alise> Not broken by a long stretch: but cracking passwords is doable with some heuristics.
22:56:17 <alise> And it's generally just quite weak.
22:58:53 <alise> Man, I love the typesetting ability.
22:59:00 <alise> Oh god it can use TeX fonts awesome
22:59:08 <Ilari> AFAIK, MD5 is not broken for password hashing.
22:59:42 <Portponky> I think for md5 there is a way of generating collisions?
23:00:05 <Ilari> Portponky: Actually, attacks against it are more advanced than just collisions.
23:00:05 <Portponky> that doesn't break it for passwords
23:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, I knew this flash drive RAID thing was a bad idea
23:00:23 <alise> but people choose bad passwords often...
23:00:30 <alise> i'm pretty sure md5 weaknesses have been exploited for that
23:00:35 <Portponky> can't you generate a crapload of MD5 sums quickly?
23:00:41 <Portponky> yeah there's a backwards md5 search for common strings
23:00:44 <alise> md5 is very fast ofc
23:00:49 <alise> which is its weakness, partially
23:00:56 <Portponky> valve used it in their portal 2 arg
23:00:57 <Ilari> AFAIK, the state of the art is given X and Y, find Z and W such that MD5(XZ) = MD5(YW).
23:01:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: musn't.
23:04:26 <Ilari> That's one reason why just doing Hash(password) and storing that is bad idea.
23:05:09 <Ilari> Password storage should utilize 1) Iteration 2) salting.
23:06:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:13 <uorygl> Iteration? Does that mean taking the hash a bunch of times, salting every time.
23:06:20 -!- augur has joined.
23:06:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:06:52 <Ilari> AFAIK, one has to only salt once in first iteration.
23:07:16 <uorygl> So iteration means you just take hashes of hashes?
23:07:24 <alise> pw_safe = MD5^n(salt(pw))
23:07:38 <alise> Set n so that calculating pw_safe takes about 1-2 seconds.
23:07:43 <augur> i'd salt /your/ iterations
23:07:45 <alise> Everyone can wait 1-2 seconds to register or log in.
23:07:46 <augur> if you know what i mean
23:07:48 <alise> And it'll be very secure.
23:07:48 <Ilari> That's bit excessive...
23:07:58 <alise> Ilari: But utterly harmless.
23:08:10 <alise> And, well, not being excessive enough is what got us here today: continually replacing our security algorithms.
23:08:13 <Ilari> pw_safe = salt|MD5^n(salt|pw)
23:08:30 <alise> It's not like the more-bits-are-better nonsense you find in bad public key systems.
23:08:39 <alise> Anyway, here's what you should really do:
23:08:50 <alise> pw_safe = bcrypt(pw, n)
23:08:56 <uorygl> I guess iteration does make the hash, and therefore any cracking, take longer.
23:08:59 <Ilari> One could design very slow but very unlikely to be ever broken hash function.
23:09:00 <alise> Turns out OpenBSD are really fucking good at this stuff.
23:09:21 <Ilari> Don't they use EKS Blowfish?
23:09:31 <alise> They use blowfish + salting + repeated iterations.
23:09:34 <alise> It's all very fancy.
23:09:46 <alise> If you believe cperciva, FreeBSD security officer, you should now use his scrypt instead.
23:12:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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23:19:38 <augur> set unification is horrible
23:19:44 <augur> can i just say this
23:20:45 <augur> i think i dont have a clear definition of it in my head
23:26:51 <alise> we need the perfect cas. clearly
23:28:45 <alise> man, DDG is awesome.
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00:01:15 -!- nooga has joined.
00:01:18 <nooga> http://3537.pl/programista.html
00:07:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:09:27 <nooga> you have to read a sequence of memory states and output the shortest boolfuck program that transforms memory from one state to another
00:27:21 <Sgeo__> SG-1 > Thing due in a week
00:27:32 <Sgeo__> That I would have had a month to work on if my computer was working
00:30:08 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
00:30:41 <SgeoN1> Alise, ping me before you leave
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01:10:25 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I think not having a commercial break here would make the episode worse.
01:13:52 <nooga> just out of curiosity, any ideas?
01:14:29 <oerjan> a pyramid made out of giant fries
01:15:03 <oerjan> (going with the potato theme here)
01:15:56 <nooga> but the boolfuck delta between two memory states sounds more interesting
01:16:20 <pikhq> If less delicious.
01:25:56 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:28:21 <nooga> still, this problem sounds interesting
01:33:02 <Ilari> Isn't the general problem of taking two memory states and outputting shortest program to transform them from first to second RE-hard?
01:36:06 <oerjan> well starting from an empty state gives you kolmogorov complexity, which is undecidable
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01:41:57 <nooga> it's not two memory states to be exact
01:42:43 <nooga> http://3537.pl/programista.html check out the 'przykład' section, there is a sample input and output
01:44:51 <oerjan> um boolfuck has no I/O, so i would assume the input is the initial memory state, and the output is the final one, with some simple encoding.
01:45:24 <oerjan> and that's enough to make it undecidable in general (in fact the input is unnecessary)
01:45:53 <nooga> you get a sequence of memory states
01:46:21 <nooga> and you have to find a program that produces them during it's execution
01:47:06 <nooga> 000,100,110,111 the program is +>
01:47:12 <oerjan> s/nooga> yes/nooga> no/
01:47:45 <nooga> if you'd only the firs and the last state
01:48:15 <oerjan> i thought bf.in and bf.out were I/O for the boolfuck program, sheesh
01:49:40 <nooga> nah, your task is to generate boolfuck program for given input
01:49:49 <oerjan> ok. it's still undecidable in principle since it's undecidable between any pair of consecutive states.
01:50:09 <oerjan> but obviously if the programs are very short, you can solve it
01:50:15 -!- alise has joined.
01:50:53 <alise> <nooga> http://3537.pl/programista.html
01:50:57 <alise> eset -- they make NOD32, yeah?
01:51:14 <alise> and their job offer involves boolfuck?
01:51:18 <alise> sounds like a pretty good place to work
01:52:22 <oerjan> nooga: the tape length is fixed in advance? then it's solvable.
01:53:39 <oerjan> since then so is the halting problem
01:54:46 <alise> nooga: i say go for the job :P
01:54:51 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:54:54 <oerjan> assuming there's nothing non-obvious written in that polish
02:01:48 -!- Zuu has joined.
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02:01:49 -!- Zuu has joined.
02:04:51 <alise> "--and also, whomsoever solves this problem hereby enlists their soul towards our demonic army of gnomes, who do verily check every file. You thought that was a program? Ha ha ha ha ha ha..."
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02:36:26 <alise> hey guys I proved P=NP
02:37:09 <alise> { i = 0; for (sol in possible_solutions) { if correct(sol) return sol; if (i > 10^(10^100)) halt; } }
02:37:17 <alise> (note: algorithm is unusable)
02:37:25 <alise> (note: algorithm does always terminate because the universe will be dead by then)
02:41:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:41:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:41:48 <alise> --but nobody will ever know it, ha ha ha
02:42:09 <oerjan> strange network error just as i was typing my comment :(
02:42:19 <alise> what's the bug then smarty :P
02:42:33 <oerjan> i is never incremented
02:42:44 <alise> um that's a feature of the language
02:42:49 <alise> { i = 0; for (sol in possible_solutions) { if correct(sol) return sol; if (i > 10^(10^100)) halt; i++ } }
02:42:53 <alise> amended version for those who don't understand.
02:43:14 <oerjan> as i was saying but got cut off
02:43:29 <oerjan> there's an algorithm guaranteed to work _if_ P=NP
02:43:48 <oerjan> just iterate through all possible P algorithms
02:44:04 <alise> and besides, P=NP is practically worthless -- people who think it isn't are stupid :)
02:44:15 <alise> Since you can always have an O(n) algorithm with a really fucking huge constant.
02:44:19 <pikhq> oerjan: Is the set of possible P algorithms finite?
02:44:33 <alise> and dynamic programming + heuristics make NP problems okay in practice
02:44:37 <alise> pikhq: No, does that matter?
02:44:41 <pikhq> Oh, wait, doesn't matter.
02:44:46 <alise> The naturals are infinite, but looping through them until you find a certain one will always halt.
02:44:49 <oerjan> pikhq: no, but... oh wait
02:44:58 <pikhq> You *will* eventually find something, yes.
02:45:04 <pikhq> As the set is most certainly countable.
02:45:31 <oerjan> hm maybe i remember it wrong, it seems to have an issue if the answer is "no"
02:45:41 <alise> btw I hypothesised about a halting-checker;
02:45:47 <alise> you can do things such as:
02:45:52 <Ilari> Even O(n^6) algo gets inpractical fast (just look at state-of-the-art AKS-based primality tests).
02:46:04 <alise> check statements of the form "forall x in naturals, P(x)" and "exists x in naturals s.t. P(x)"
02:46:14 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:46:18 <alise> and also evaluate all convergent infinite sums (without analytic/symbolic methods)
02:46:23 <alise> but you cannot do the same for the reals
02:46:30 <Ilari> There are (countably) inifinite number of problems in P.
02:46:34 <alise> I tried recursively nesting halt-checker calls, but you can't do it
02:47:29 <alise> "Peter Shor points out that if were living in a simulation, then the incompatibility of quantum mechanics with general relativity might simply be a bug, in which case the universe will crash when the first black hole evaporates."
02:47:32 <alise> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
02:48:04 <oerjan> nah the black holes are page faults
02:49:24 <Ilari> Or then, GR is wrong (at least when describing such extreme things as black holes...)
02:49:50 <alise> Ilari: well he said "might"
02:50:06 <alise> maybe string theory exposes the internal object representation of particles :-)
02:50:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Seems to me that page faults being noticable is a bug.
02:50:58 <pikhq> Ilari: Even O(1) can absolutely suck if that constant factor is long.
02:52:31 <Sgeo__> Hm, alise is still here
02:53:45 <alise> yeah. i'm being hideously irresponsible
02:54:04 <pikhq> I'm just impressed you slept last night.
02:57:48 <alise> pikhq: http://nautilus.cs.miyazaki-u.ac.jp/~skata/MagicHaskeller.html
02:57:53 <alise> -- The following will find the recursive form definition of the fibonacci function from its closed-form solution.
02:57:53 <alise> init075 -- The problem is tough, so you should be prepared to resort whatever measure you can take!
02:57:53 <alise> printAny (f -> all (n -> (f :: Int->Int) n == let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in round ((phi^n - (1-phi)^n) / sqrt 5) ) [0..9])
02:58:09 <alise> (Note of course that the Japanese yen sign is, in all the Windows fuckup glory, being used as a backslash.)
02:58:13 <alise> (Just like in file paths.)
02:58:50 <pikhq> To be perfectly fair to Windows, that's actually a fuckup from the JIS that old version of Windows merely complied with.
02:59:53 <alise> But yeah, pikhq, this thing generates the recursive haskell fibonacci from Binet's formula.
03:00:04 <alise> Admittedly it isn't looking at Binet's formula -- pre-computed instead -- but still!
03:00:48 <pikhq> Japanese Industrial Standard.
03:01:56 -!- Gregor-L has joined.
03:03:58 <alise> Japanese Industrial Shitpile
03:04:42 <pikhq> The JIS standards are a shitpile.
03:16:14 <alise> I'm bored, and I'm going to bed soon. But I'm still bored.
03:17:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:17:28 -!- augur has joined.
03:17:45 <alise> Would you like to play a game? [anything]
03:17:45 <alise> The only winning move is
03:17:55 <alise> It needs to include a full simulation of Global Thermonuclear War and Tic-Tac-Toe.
03:18:37 <augur> thermonuclear tic-tac-toe?
03:19:00 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...).
03:20:36 <alise> I've discovered a brilliant hangman strategy.
03:20:45 <alise> Just start "etaoinshrdlu".
03:20:54 <oerjan> augur: i see great potential there
03:21:24 <alise> [[Twenty masked gunmen in Gaza attack and burn to the ground a summer camp for children run by UNRWA for "teaching schoolgirls fitness, dancing, and immorality."]]
03:25:22 <alise> i thought it said "immortality"
03:26:53 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
03:26:54 <pikhq> If only they could teach immortality.
03:27:09 <pikhq> Hellote again sir.
03:28:18 <alise> i thought it was some awesome religious crazies
03:28:27 <alise> THEY TEACH IMMORTALITY!!! THIS IS UNHOLY!!
03:28:45 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:/usr/games$ ./arithmetic
03:28:46 <alise> 6 + 8 = Wow, fuck this.
03:28:46 <alise> Please type a number.
03:28:53 <alise> Some BSD games really suck.
03:29:42 <augur> a better game would be /usr/games/ImpossibleMathProblems
03:30:06 <alise> Do all of the zeroes of the Riemann zeta function lie on the critical line?
03:30:06 <pikhq> /usr/games/Level5ProblemsFromTheArtOfComputerProgramming
03:30:20 <alise> Can the problems in NP be solved by a P algorithm?
03:30:20 <augur> problem one: prove that for all n > 2 and all x, y, z in N, x^n + y^n != z^n
03:30:29 <alise> Do all Collatz sequences eventually reach 1?
03:30:35 <pikhq> augur: That's no longer level 5.
03:30:39 <alise> augur: that's already been proven.
03:30:50 <augur> yes, but its still pretty hard :P
03:30:58 <pikhq> Yes, but it's not level 5!
03:31:05 <augur> construct an ELEGANt proof of that.
03:31:11 <alise> What are the level 5 problems then?
03:31:14 <alise> augur: Wiles' proof is elegant.
03:31:30 <pikhq> alise: Problems with unknown solutions, IIRC.
03:31:36 <augur> im not sure that mathematicians agree.
03:31:59 <pikhq> More elegant than everything else we've got.
03:32:11 <pikhq> Except for that one the margin is too small to contain.
03:32:44 <alise> augur: I'm relatively sure you're wrong.
03:32:58 <alise> "Such-and-such's proof of X is ugly because it's complicated" is basically what laymen think.
03:33:03 <augur> his proof certainly isnt marginalia, thats for sure
03:33:12 <alise> Yes - that's because Fermat was full of shit.
03:33:33 <alise> The problem is Hard. The countless numbers of false solutions and the fact that only advanced mathematics solved it show with extremely high probability that Fermat was simply wrong about having a proof.
03:34:26 <Ilari_antrcomp> What was length of the proof? 350 pages or so? That can't be elegant.
03:34:37 <pikhq> Pity he didn't have a larger margin.
03:34:44 <alise> The Wiles paper is over 100 pages long and often uses the peculiar symbols and notations of group theory, algebraic geometry, commutative algebra, and Galois theory.
03:34:46 <alise> Over 100 pages isn't too bad.
03:34:57 <alise> Remember that it turns out that Fermat's Last Theorem is pretty damn advanced stuff!
03:35:07 <alise> Not everything can have a trivial proof. That doesn't mean the complicated proofs aren't elegant.
03:36:21 <alise> http://math.stanford.edu/~lekheng/flt/wiles.pdf ;; the proof as it was published in Annals of Mathematics
03:36:27 <Ilari_antrcomp> Reminds of excercise problem of proving that every undirected graph can be converted to directed graph such that on every vertex, indegree and outdegree only differ by at most 1...
03:36:33 <alise> http://users.tpg.com.au/nanahcub/flt.pdf ;; one with searchable text (much smaller; hundreds of kilobytes instead of 10mb)
03:37:35 <alise> Of course, I don't understand it; I doubt many people do.
03:37:36 <Ilari_antrcomp> There's at least elegant way of proving that and unelegant way.
03:37:41 <alise> But I don't look at it and see an ugly thing.
03:37:49 <alise> I see a very complicated, complex thing, but not a gnarly thing.
03:39:15 <alise> Besides, that article isn't even a proof of FLT.
03:39:37 <alise> It's a proof of an entirely different theorem; FLT just so happens to follow from it and countless other lemmas posed before.
03:39:43 <Ilari_antrcomp> Elegant proofs tend to take huge leaps that are simple, yet unobivious.
03:39:54 <alise> The actual proof of FLT would just be... <huge list of lemmas & theorems including the one Wiles proved> "Q.E.D."
03:41:10 <Ilari_antrcomp> Like leaping from that direction problem to eulerian circuits.
03:41:27 <comex> http://www.x11r5.com/
03:42:02 * comex recently read a semishitty science fiction book about FLT
03:42:21 <alise> what on earth is x11r5.com :)
03:42:38 <alise> Why's it have that name?
03:42:48 <alise> fungot: you're more coherent than x11r5.
03:42:48 <fungot> alise: is the language/ library dichotomy, i know; it's an occupational hazard for all of them
03:42:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:42:58 <alise> fungot: Wax eloquent.
03:42:59 <fungot> alise: my network outage took a lot of native ppc code compilers for scheme or any other swear wordswear. what more could one ask for? i'm trying to
03:43:05 <Sgeo__> Because it uses the X11 server to .. do something
03:43:11 <fungot> alise: which would mean no integer arrays larger than 64k bytes, or truncate the key? evil grin which would have told me, what?"
03:43:15 <Sgeo__> I'm not creative enough to come up with a good joke
03:43:57 <Sgeo__> It runs some code in an xterm, takes a screenshot, and uploads it
03:44:29 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
03:44:39 <comex> fungot: prove Fermat's Last Theorem
03:44:39 <fungot> comex: ( i) satisfy the draw within a time limit, e ceases to hold the delegated player;
03:45:28 <augur> alise: ahh but what if fermat's proof was real :o
03:45:59 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
03:46:06 <comex> fungot: prove Fermat's Last Theorem
03:46:06 <fungot> comex: if you try to zap it!" but the sword.
03:46:14 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
03:46:20 <comex> fungot: prove Fermat's Last Theorem
03:46:20 <alise> fungot: i bet darwin could prove FLT with smilies
03:46:21 <augur> alise: oh pshaw you dont know
03:46:21 <fungot> comex: my chief object is to see a flora written by a man who intends keeping pointers naturally tries to get/ subject as clear as daylight. old flourens " ( examen du livre de m. darwin une critique dont je fnord trouve que des debris dans un journal fnord.,/ outer edge :)/ reef.
03:46:22 <fungot> alise: origin :) species,' and arranged for/ publication :) one volume for 1867-8.) i particularly admired tyndall's little speech " professor tyndall was president :)/ royal society, with notes on.
03:46:33 <alise> On / Origin :) Species
03:47:04 <alise> words deemed too rare to place in the file
03:47:05 <comex> what exactly is the source of that :p
03:47:07 <alise> :) and / are encoding errors
03:47:18 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
03:47:20 <fungot> alise: ' i'm not a bird!' and the waiters set a leg of mutton, and began fnord them into colours.
03:47:23 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
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03:47:36 <comex> fungot: I would not have thought of using YouTube comments.
03:47:37 <fungot> comex: 15 seconds. what the hell
03:47:47 <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
03:47:49 <comex> fungot: took you less than that to respond, eh?
03:47:49 <fungot> comex: whatever, i've told you where: they do their homework. seriously folks, do your own) so it wont have the same
03:47:55 <alise> `addquote <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
03:47:55 <fungot> alise: avril roxs your soxs video
03:47:55 <fungot> comex: well, and the aircraft had no passengers... that guy is fantastic. there were probably 3 people died
03:48:06 <comex> this is the best source.
03:48:08 <HackEgo> 163|<fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
03:48:18 <alise> comex: it's quite a bit verbatim iirc
03:48:29 <comex> fungot: the aircraft? where?
03:48:29 <fungot> comex: you obviously can't be bothered to read the description! it's kinda scary at first but it was landing at a low approach of a bitch.
03:48:31 <alise> asiekierka assembled it by manually copying/pasting youtube comments (he isn't a good enough programmer to write a scraper)
03:52:19 <Mathnerd314> hmm... did anyone mention how scarily close this game is to a Turing machine: http://jayisgames.com/games/manufactoria/
03:52:36 <alise> It is a turing machine, or at least TC.
03:52:37 <alise> Has unbounded memory
03:53:37 <alise> Not long til I have to be up in 5 hours.
03:55:49 <Mathnerd314> I must admit that I sometimes indulge, however
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04:07:36 <Sgeo__> alise, keep working on improving things
04:07:40 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
04:07:48 <alise> oerjan: HEY i didn't ask YOU
04:07:53 <alise> and i leave unsatisfied!
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06:38:12 <ec> NEENER NEENER
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16:52:26 * Phantom_Hoover wants to create a Lisp dialect where every instance of "s" is replaced with "th"
16:53:31 <oerjan> *cough* http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/LITHP
16:54:56 <oerjan> great nerds think alike
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17:00:28 <Ilari> I see figuring out Skyroads level format has been discussed here before...
17:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Why in the name of goat did we make the wiki public domain?
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17:08:17 <AnMaster> hm where is ais when you need him
17:09:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, isn't the wiki GFDL or CC-by-sa?
17:09:49 * Zuu gives Phantom_Hoover cookies :)
17:09:57 <Zuu> public domain for the win
17:10:30 * Zuu has no clue what people are on about, Zuu just arrived
17:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I fact, since it's PD it could be switched with little fuss.
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17:14:04 * AnMaster watches a gtkwave window trying to figure out what is wrong
17:14:42 <AnMaster> anyway, I still need ais, for a VHDL question
17:16:58 <AnMaster> also fun, ghdl seems to accept åäöÄÖ in comments in VHDL. But for Å it complains about invalid char
17:17:29 <AnMaster> I guess UTF-8 åäöÄÖ simply doesn't hit problematic byte values for whatever encoding it uses.
17:17:55 <Zuu> Å is capital å
17:18:03 <Zuu> they should be in the same code tables
17:18:15 <AnMaster> Zuu, I speak Swedish after all. And the file was saved in UTF-8
17:18:24 <AnMaster> presumably, it doesn't use UTF-8 though
17:18:25 <Zuu> meaning that if one is problematic the other should be aswell
17:18:37 <AnMaster> Zuu, well that was not the case
17:18:49 <Zuu> because the software is bugged
17:19:08 <AnMaster> Zuu, well rather, the software in question use some other encoding than UTF-8 when reading the file
17:19:20 <AnMaster> and since the editor saved the file in UTF-8
17:19:35 <AnMaster> presumably Å hits a bad code point while å does not
17:19:39 <Zuu> i just explained to you that even if it does, that wouldnt be the problem
17:19:53 <AnMaster> Zuu, well I maintain that it is logically the problem
17:20:46 <AnMaster> so assuming it treated it as some single-byte encoding... hm
17:21:24 <Zuu> in utf its invalid
17:21:34 <AnMaster> okay so my system is fucked up...
17:21:34 <Zuu> 'å' in latin1
17:21:46 <Zuu> also invalid in utf
17:23:04 <AnMaster> Zuu, on the other hand, what is c3?
17:23:38 <Zuu> i would say yes
17:24:07 <AnMaster> so that happens to be the multibyte codepoint of å then in utf8 presumably
17:25:36 <AnMaster> so... I really need ais now :/
17:25:50 <Zuu> what is this ais?
17:26:04 * Zuu wants icecream
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17:29:35 <AnMaster> and I really need his knowledge about something (VHDL to be specific)
17:30:17 <Zuu> Not really, i think it has something to do with a storage format for 3d material, no?
17:30:30 <AnMaster> it is a hardware description language
17:30:38 <AnMaster> used to program FPGAs and such
17:30:39 <Zuu> that would have been my second gyess :)
17:31:17 <Zuu> I've read a bit about it
17:31:37 <AnMaster> that was quick: from not having a clue to reading a bit about it ;P
17:32:01 <AnMaster> basically I need this in a port map: foo_vector(32 downto 0) => bar_vector(0 to 32). That is reverse the vector for one component instance (but not for the other one) Which is annoying since that code does not compile. And with 32 signals in that vector, doing manual mapping per signal would be rather annoying.
17:32:14 <Zuu> its a matter of attaching these acronyms to stuff in my grain
17:32:36 <Zuu> knowing the name of somthing is very very different from knowing what something is about
17:33:33 * Zuu knows lots of stuff he doesnt remember the name of
17:34:03 <AnMaster> there is also verilog, another HDL
17:34:14 <AnMaster> so how do you know it wasn't that which you read something about? ;P
17:34:32 <Zuu> Because i read about both
17:34:41 <Zuu> and two more
17:35:50 <AnMaster> okay wtf at the file menu entries in gtkwave...
17:36:20 <AnMaster> I have absolutely no clue what the first one is
17:36:42 <Zuu> probably reload?
17:36:53 <AnMaster> unless it is meant like "read (save file)", but then what the heck does "open" do
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17:54:08 <nooga> how to check if ray hits pixel? the ray is given by 2d vector pair (o,d) where o is origin and d is a normalised direction adn pixel is given by 2d vector p
17:55:01 <nooga> i can't figure that out since pixels' coordinates are from Z^2 and vectors are in R^2
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17:55:35 <AnMaster> nooga, find out if pixel is in the path of the ray
17:55:54 <AnMaster> good point about the Z^2 vs. R^2
17:56:34 <AnMaster> nooga, do the check with an epsilon? Draw the line on a buffer and check if the pixel in question is black (or whatever colour)
17:57:19 <nooga> the second method sounds better
17:58:58 <AnMaster> nooga, the second one sounds like a bad hack
17:59:28 <Zuu> pixels have boundaries, so what you really want is to know the size of the pixel
18:00:00 <nooga> yeah but i've already got buffer together with tested pixels on it
18:00:04 <Zuu> then check if the ray intersects any of the lines that make up the pixel
18:00:09 <AnMaster> so how do you do ray colliding with box?
18:00:20 <Zuu> that's how :)
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18:00:34 <nooga> and in the case with epsilon, i'd need to find good epsilon... i'm too lazy
18:02:39 <nooga> i could collide with a small circle instead of square
18:04:18 <AnMaster> but what is wrong with a square
18:04:32 <AnMaster> you could in some cases optimise it to only check two or even one side
18:04:50 <AnMaster> like, straight up/down/left/right: only check nearest side
18:04:57 <AnMaster> otherwise only check two nearest ones
18:05:02 <AnMaster> if it is speed that you are worried about
18:06:08 <AnMaster> and if you need to check many pixels against a single ray that would be a win
18:06:27 <AnMaster> since the ray would hit the same one or two nearest side(s) for all pixels
18:06:45 <AnMaster> (unless you bounce, then you need to recalculate it for the new bounced ray)
18:08:54 <AnMaster> well, I have no idea what you use your rays for
18:09:02 <nooga> i'm not raytracing
18:09:19 <nooga> i'm making a program that will be able to recognize shapes
18:09:31 <AnMaster> then I fail to see what you need rays for
18:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, are you trying to make it recognise them from a photo, or what?
18:10:42 <nooga> it goes like this: i got a shape, i find it's contour
18:11:33 <nooga> and then i fire rays from the centre, check intersections with the contour
18:12:43 <nooga> and then i've got an array of distances from the centre, then I treat it with FFT
18:13:05 <nooga> and the picture is just a monochromatic bitmap
18:13:40 <AnMaster> nooga, why do you treat it with FFT?
18:13:59 <nooga> to get something that i will be able to compare with another results
18:17:38 <nooga> because comparing arrays of raw numbers is not too accurate
18:18:16 <nooga> so that i need some determinant
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19:09:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, write hashlife in a HDL of your choice
19:09:50 <AnMaster> also, a GOL processor would be awesome
19:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> A processor in Life or one that runs it on a hardware level?
19:16:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Also Hashlife uses fancy data structures and pointers and such.
19:17:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also sure, but it could still be done in hardware, after all, hashlife runs on advanced hardware
19:17:35 <AnMaster> of course that doesn't mean it would be easy
19:20:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sure, but that will give you something to do
19:20:09 <AnMaster> it will surely last for a few days
19:20:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well... you didn't ask for something pointfull ;P
19:20:42 <AnMaster> (yes I know that isn't a real word)
19:20:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also there is simulation only
19:21:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, okay what about a GOL processor at silicon level. I suggest an 20 nm process
19:22:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a normal 64-bit machine would be limited to a fixed number of cells too
19:22:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, of course you will have to pick some upper limit when doing anything in hardware
19:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But the most obvious way to do it would involve making a component for each cell.
19:23:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, after all, I plan a "mostly synthesisable" befunge93 processor as a summer project
19:23:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah nice, concurrent life cpu
19:23:27 <AnMaster> calculating each generation in O(1)
19:23:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, idea: make it networked, so each side of the die can hook up to other copies
19:23:59 <AnMaster> by just connecting it to more units at the right connectors
19:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> So... you could have a large board, with a display unit, which could be linked.
19:24:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, since you won't have one pin per cell probably, you would need to have some fast connection between the units
19:24:58 <AnMaster> if it ran at a faster speed than the simulation it would be no issue
19:25:21 <Phantom_Hoover> You can just pass an appropriate string of bits for each side.
19:26:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and yeah you should hook it up to some array of display controllers and drive a huge high DPI OLED or whatever
19:26:14 <AnMaster> just don't do TFT, do something more exotric
19:26:25 <AnMaster> such as oled, plasma, quantum dots
19:27:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, with a sufficiently large number of cells, it would pwn even Hashlife for the patterns it could hold.
19:29:00 <AnMaster> how do you write hexdecimal values in VHDL?
19:29:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, make it async. SOMEHOW
19:29:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hash life sucks at highly chaotic patterns
19:29:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so this would beat hashlife at those
19:30:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there are some examples in golly for which hashlife has problems not just at the start iirc
19:32:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, see HashLife/hashlife-oddity1.mc iirc
19:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need billions of cells to see anything interesting in that.
19:34:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sure. But why not build a few GB of SRAM + some logic (which is basically what this would be)
19:35:05 <AnMaster> remember you only need one bit per cells
19:35:18 <AnMaster> so a few GB would be 8 times as many cells
19:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If you make it "cells outside of bounds are dead", you end up with blocks everwhere.
19:35:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also aren't there wrapping variants of life?
19:36:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if you built it like an old cray machine (that is, curved) this would be easy
19:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have Life on sensible things like tori, Klein bottles and the projective plane.
19:37:53 <Zuu> And why would you say that you cant have life on spheres?
19:38:12 <Zuu> its just a matter of wrapping a square plane onto the sphere
19:38:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, at the poles or what?
19:39:38 <Zuu> Phantom_Hoover: i can easily wrap a checkered square sheet onto a sphere with no two same colored checkers adjacent to each other
19:40:42 <Zuu> .. so that pretty much proves the possibility of having life on a sphere
19:48:15 * AnMaster tries to work out how to convert an x,y coordinate pair to a linear address
19:48:40 <AnMaster> I suppose that using some power of two for one of the sides will be better
19:48:49 <AnMaster> and just ignoring the "spurious" memory
19:51:50 <Zuu> using a multiplication macro?
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19:52:24 <AnMaster> Zuu, I'm trying to find something that would in theory be possible to synthesise
19:53:17 <Zuu> static multiplication should certainly be possible using an FPGA
19:53:28 <Zuu> so do that
19:53:48 <AnMaster> trying to think of a good way to do it, I'm no VHDL expert (yet!)
19:54:01 <Zuu> addr = x * 25 + y
19:54:40 <AnMaster> except that is nothing like valid VHDL
19:54:48 <Zuu> i dont know valid vhdl
19:54:49 <AnMaster> but sure, to_integer() and some other stuff
19:55:00 <Zuu> im just giving you the general idea :)
19:55:12 <AnMaster> it is the VHDL specific things...
19:56:52 <AnMaster> Zuu, src/fungespace.vhdl:35:31: no function declarations for operator "*"
19:57:07 <Zuu> i believe i told you to use a macro :)
19:57:30 <AnMaster> I used it as an operator anyway
19:57:54 <AnMaster> surely there should be some sort of standard function for it already
19:59:21 <Zuu> I did tell you that i read about it :P
20:01:24 <AnMaster> so something is kind of broken
20:03:44 <AnMaster> okay got something working, but I suspect it isn't possible to synthesise
20:03:53 <AnMaster> well, that Isn't the primary issue atm
20:04:45 <Zuu> Go with microsontrollers, more fun :P
20:04:58 <AnMaster> No. I programmed PIC12F629 once
20:05:10 <AnMaster> I doubt I could do befunge at all in that
20:05:47 <Zuu> I dont know what befunge is, but im quite certain that that pic can calculate anything you throw at it (with enough memory)
20:06:31 <AnMaster> and yeah a PIC doesn't have enough memory
20:06:42 <AnMaster> at least not the ones I worked with
20:06:51 <Zuu> just add extra memory :P
20:07:01 <Zuu> me looks up that befunge
20:07:24 <AnMaster> Zuu, I would say it is one of the most well known esolangs, third place after brainfuck and intercal
20:07:32 <Zuu> Oh, i've seen that language before
20:07:50 * Zuu is not very good with names
20:07:51 <AnMaster> there is befunge93 (what I'm doing in VHDL) and befunge98 (unfeasible for me to do in VHDL currently at least)
20:08:39 <AnMaster> so, now on to the stack. This will be tricky
20:08:49 <AnMaster> I need to keep some internal top of stack signal
20:09:41 <Zuu> well, im no master at fpgas, but considereing how they are intended to work, my guess is that you would practically have to program the fpga to act like a cpu, which itself should be quite a challenge
20:10:05 <AnMaster> for befunge93 it would come close
20:10:08 <Zuu> for any turing complete language
20:10:18 <AnMaster> Zuu, befunge93 is not turing complete
20:10:32 <Zuu> me is dissapointed now :/
20:10:36 <AnMaster> befunge93 has limited fungespace size
20:10:43 <AnMaster> plus you can't reach deep into the stack
20:10:57 <Deewiant> Zuu: Remember, the consensus here is that C isn't Turing complete :-)
20:11:11 <Zuu> well, when i say turing complete i really mean LBA (ofcource)
20:11:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but there is bignum befunge98, thus it is TC
20:11:35 <AnMaster> my efunge (coded in erlang) uses bignums
20:11:37 <Zuu> Deewiant: the language is, the hardware it runs on just restricts this :)
20:11:50 <Deewiant> Zuu: No, the language isn't, since it requires fixed-size pointers
20:11:57 <AnMaster> Zuu, C suffers from the sizeof() issues
20:12:06 <AnMaster> sizeof(void*) has to be finite
20:12:13 <Zuu> that doesnt make it nont-turing complete
20:12:23 <Zuu> it certainly does not
20:12:40 <AnMaster> Zuu, any given C will be non-TC
20:12:54 <Zuu> you dont seem to understand what turing complete means then
20:13:07 <AnMaster> if sizeof(void*) is 8, then it is CHAR_BITS * 8 that is the limit of the address space
20:13:15 <AnMaster> if it is 16, well then it is CHAR_BITS * 16
20:13:37 <Zuu> its just a matter of encoding of address space
20:13:53 <AnMaster> what on earth do you mean by that
20:14:06 <Zuu> using more bytes to represent an address
20:14:07 <AnMaster> you can't access anything that can't be reached with a void*
20:14:18 <AnMaster> Zuu, sure but then you change the void* size
20:14:22 <Zuu> ofcource you can
20:14:24 <AnMaster> Zuu, but it must still be finite
20:14:37 <Zuu> thats the restriction the hardware sets, not the language
20:14:38 <AnMaster> Zuu, the C spec forbids accessing anything outside your pointer size
20:14:55 <Zuu> that again is the hardware restriction
20:15:04 <AnMaster> Zuu, it is written in the C *spec* though
20:15:11 <pikhq> Zuu: All data must have a valid pointer in C.
20:15:13 <AnMaster> which makes it a spec restriction
20:15:22 <Zuu> consider using the disk to store your data
20:15:28 <pikhq> As such, all things must have a valid, unique void* to them.
20:15:28 <Zuu> again finite space
20:15:39 <Zuu> finite space will _always_ be your issue
20:15:44 <AnMaster> Zuu, again finite due to seek offset having to be finite
20:15:46 <Zuu> at least as far as we know today :)
20:15:56 <pikhq> And what's more, void* must be a size a multiple of the size of a char.
20:16:04 <pikhq> And the maximum value of a char must be storable in a char.
20:16:10 <pikhq> Thus, a char must be of finite size.
20:16:11 <Zuu> so in essence, C can certainly model a turing machine
20:16:18 <pikhq> Thus, *C memory is guaranteed to be finite*.
20:16:27 <AnMaster> Zuu, a turing machine yes. But not an universal one
20:16:52 <pikhq> Zuu: Yes, attaching an infinite tape to C can model a universal Turing machine. However, this is true for many, *many* a finite state machine.
20:17:08 <Zuu> any explanation fo C not being turing complete is a flawed explanation
20:17:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, you can't attach an infinite tape to C though?
20:17:30 <AnMaster> Zuu, is that supposed to make sense even...
20:17:37 <Zuu> pikhq: that wouldnt be a finite state machine then
20:17:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure you can. Not all files are indexable.
20:17:51 <pikhq> Zuu: It's a finite state machine BECAUSE IT HAS FINITE STATE.
20:17:51 <AnMaster> Zuu, it sounds like a religious fanatics kind of point of view.
20:17:58 <AnMaster> saying that "<Zuu> any explanation fo C not being turing complete is a flawed explanation"
20:18:08 <Zuu> pikhq: then it coudlnt be turing complete
20:18:22 <pikhq> Zuu: AND C HAS FINITE FUCKING STATE.
20:18:24 <Zuu> either way you tuirn it you will make it false
20:18:30 <pikhq> Most finite state machines, *when given infinite state to work with*, are magically Turing-complete.
20:18:33 <Zuu> pikhq: no the hardware has
20:18:42 <Zuu> C is a language
20:18:49 <pikhq> Zuu: No, *C is guaranteed by the spec to have finite state*.
20:19:02 <pikhq> It does not specifiy how large that state is, but it *must be finite*.
20:19:21 <Zuu> pikhq: because it is pretty much guaranteed that hardware have finite state ;)
20:19:28 <pikhq> *And thus C describes a class of finite-state machine*.
20:19:43 <pikhq> Zuu: C ITSELF FREAKING DECLARES THAT REGARDLESS OF THE HARDWARE THERE IS FINITE STATE.
20:19:45 <Zuu> so really, any language you can make up cam be said to have finite state in some spec.
20:19:54 <pikhq> EVEN RUNNING ON AN ACTUAL UTM, IT IS DECLARED TO HAVE FINITE STATE.
20:20:00 <AnMaster> Zuu, the problem is not that the hardware is finite (of course it is). The issue is that the spec enforces any implementation to have finite state
20:20:15 <Zuu> AnMaster: and that is very much beside the point
20:20:15 <AnMaster> it is not a valid C implementation if you have infinite state
20:20:25 <AnMaster> Zuu, no it is _exactly_ the point here
20:20:26 <pikhq> Zuu: No, that IS THE POINT.
20:20:36 <Zuu> well, then you have argued for nothing
20:20:39 <pikhq> The POINT is that C is guaranteed to have finite state *by the C standard*.
20:21:01 <Zuu> arguing that D is not TC under the premide it is not TC is idiotic
20:21:21 <Zuu> Argh at spelling
20:21:37 <pikhq> Zuu: Arguing that C is not TC under the premise that *the language is declared in such a way that it is not TC* is not merely idiotic, it's the only real way to go about it.
20:21:53 <pikhq> *Your* premise is "Well, C is declared to have finite state, *but* it's TC."
20:22:11 <Zuu> No i msaying that the hardware is the limitation, shich i said right from the start
20:22:11 <pikhq> That is to say, your premise is about on par with "Well, 1+1 = 2, but 1+1 = fish."
20:22:25 <Zuu> Which in turn is the reason C can be guaranteed to have finite state
20:22:30 <pikhq> Zuu: Irrelevant. C doesn't give a shit about the hardware.
20:22:37 <AnMaster> Zuu, sure it is. But also the official C standard forbids C from having an infinite state.
20:22:51 <pikhq> C says that your state is finite, even if running on a machine with infinite state.
20:22:53 <AnMaster> it is not a valid, conforming, C implementation then
20:23:27 <pikhq> It can, of course, be obnoxiously large, but it must be finite.
20:25:04 <AnMaster> well then, to anyone who does: it seems that the right way to declare a 32-bit std_logic_vector is: std_logic_vector(4294967296 downto 0) but that seems absurd
20:25:05 <Zuu> ok, give me some hardware with infinite state, and i will write a C program that will act like any universal TC but yet only access a finite set of stats
20:25:22 <Zuu> a C program that conforms 100% to the spec i might add
20:26:16 <Zuu> By assuming that this finite state is large enough to compute whatever needs to becomputed, otherwise go into an infinite loop
20:26:41 <pikhq> Zuu: Minor problem: you are not acting like any universal TC then.
20:26:54 <Zuu> sure, you will get the exact same result ;)
20:26:58 <pikhq> You are acting like a finite state machine.
20:27:36 <pikhq> *It is perfectly possible to just use more memory than your finite state machine has while still halting*.
20:28:02 <pikhq> This is like implementing 32-bit address space by assuming an 8-bit address space is enough, and if that fails, going into an infinite loop.
20:28:11 <Zuu> no the hardware has infinite space, the program will determine if it needs more (finite) memory
20:28:26 <pikhq> *But C does not allow that.*
20:28:40 <Zuu> you said it jsut have to be finite space, not how much finite space
20:28:50 <Zuu> as i explained, i will just assume there is more space
20:28:54 <pikhq> *It must be finite and bound.*
20:29:20 * AnMaster has a crazy idea for how to implement the funge93 stack
20:29:50 <Zuu> Just to be explicit, this argument ended at the sime you gius mentioned the finite state stuff form the spec
20:29:54 <AnMaster> basically... storing the two top values in registers. Memory mapped stack or something...
20:30:04 <pikhq> Okay, so, every time you run out of memory, you recompile and rerun the program with a larger address space?
20:30:08 <Zuu> it just became to rediculous by then
20:30:37 <Zuu> pikhq: that is one way to do it
20:30:53 <AnMaster> well sure what pikhq said works. But then it can be argued to be a different program
20:31:01 <Zuu> AnMaster: ,no
20:31:19 <AnMaster> sure, it is the same source, but it was compiled for a different pointer size
20:31:30 <Zuu> pointer size still doesnt matter
20:31:35 <pikhq> Okay, this is like arguing that an *infinite string of Turing machines with bound, but increasing as you go up the line, tapes* is TC.
20:31:35 <pikhq> While true, you don't have a single TC machine there. You have an infinite string of machines that, in combination, are TC.
20:31:35 <pikhq> And that is a *weird* computational model.
20:32:12 <AnMaster> also #esoteric is _all_ about *weird* computational models
20:32:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: If ever time you overrun the tape you move on to the next machine, yes, you've got that sucker TC.
20:32:32 <AnMaster> just it isn't TC currently, but like Just-In-Time-TC
20:32:56 <pikhq> Equivalent to adding a tape cell each time you hit the end, except *much* less time-efficient.
20:33:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, perfectly valid computational model though.
20:33:29 <pikhq> Weird, but entirely valid.
20:33:37 <Zuu> there are several other ways to achieve UTC though
20:33:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, that C program could even serialise it's own state while waiting for the next pointer size to compile, thus avoiding rerunning the whole thing
20:34:06 <AnMaster> sure it would have to be pointer-size-agnostic
20:34:10 <AnMaster> but that isn't much of an issue
20:34:13 <pikhq> The easiest way to have TC C is to just add the following functions: read_tape(); write_tape();move_left();move_right();
20:34:16 <Zuu> or it could start a sub program to compunicate with
20:34:22 <AnMaster> just use json or some horrible shit
20:34:26 <Zuu> say, and instance of itself
20:34:34 <pikhq> And have those functions deal with an actual tape.
20:34:45 <AnMaster> Zuu, ah but that is not part of C. it is POSIX or win32 or whatever
20:34:53 <pikhq> Still, these amount to *extensions* to C that make it Turing-complete.
20:35:11 <AnMaster> Zuu, C itself doesn't even have the concept of directories after all
20:35:21 <Zuu> AnMaster: you do realize all your excuses barely apply, right?
20:35:23 <AnMaster> and well system() is defined to be implementation defined basically
20:35:31 <AnMaster> Zuu, I think they are very valid
20:35:32 <Zuu> this is theoretical, not a amtter of some random standard
20:35:42 <Zuu> then you think wrong :)
20:35:54 <AnMaster> Zuu, well if we want to be theoretical about C we have to do it in context of some definition of C
20:36:03 <AnMaster> it is called the ISO standard for C
20:36:16 <Zuu> there are actually many versions of those
20:36:17 <AnMaster> Zuu, if you don't accept that then you have to define C some other way
20:36:31 <Zuu> no, im fine with that definition
20:36:36 <AnMaster> Zuu, well okay so which version? K&R? C89/C90? C99?
20:36:51 <Zuu> remember the posic calls are mostly implemented in C aswell
20:36:53 <AnMaster> I think they are all equivalent when it comes to this though.
20:36:59 <pikhq> By the ISO standard for C, C is a finite-state automaton.
20:37:07 <pikhq> Zuu: POSIX defines extensions *to* C.
20:37:14 <Zuu> doesnt amtter
20:37:20 <Zuu> Spelling again :/
20:37:39 <pikhq> Yes it does. It's not C, it's C + POSIX.
20:37:53 <AnMaster> sure if we discuss C + POSIX...
20:37:55 <Zuu> ok, i have far more insterresting stuff to do than tell about ways to use C in a UTC way
20:38:08 <Sgeo__> pikhq, are you joking? How could C merely be a finite-state automaton?
20:38:19 <pikhq> Sgeo__: C is mandated to have finite state.
20:38:26 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, it is true. This was debated for great length in logs
20:38:50 <Zuu> well, nwo you dont have to debate it any more :)
20:38:53 <AnMaster> any given C implementation must be finite
20:39:12 <Sgeo__> Just like an actual physical turing machine can't exist, or worse?
20:39:25 <AnMaster> sure, you can always increase it, but you can never get infinite accessible right now.
20:39:43 <pikhq> Sgeo__: No, more in the way that Befunge-93 must always have finite state.
20:39:58 <pikhq> Except that C doesn't care what the size *is* so long as it's finite.
20:40:29 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, defined in the spec. sizeof(void*) must be finite. CHAR_BITS must be finite. All data must have valid pointers. Thus your address space is at most CHAR_BITS * sizeof(void*) number of bits
20:41:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, so in the same way funge98 would be finite then. Except the spec is fuzzy enough that you can get a bignum implementation in if you try hard enough
20:41:29 <AnMaster> (it takes a LOT of arguing with people)
20:41:34 <Sgeo__> So it's possible to define too many variables?
20:41:41 <Sgeo__> What's the error message for that?
20:41:53 <AnMaster> like possible to malloc too much
20:42:00 <AnMaster> but sure you could have too many variables presumably
20:42:30 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, on a 32-bit machine something like 2 x arrays of 3.9 GB each
20:42:36 <AnMaster> I have no idea what would happen
20:42:43 <AnMaster> probably the compiler would crash with an ICE
20:42:49 <AnMaster> or your system would swap trash
20:43:06 <AnMaster> on a 64-bit system the limit for this would be _much_ higher
20:43:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Pretty sure Funge98 *allows* for a bignum implementation.
20:43:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, I had to argue with cpressy about it being fuzzily enough written to allow it
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20:44:11 <Deewiant> pikhq: It has a sizeof, which is specced as allowing to return "really really large, infinity, etc."
20:44:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, plus it confuses some programs who have no idea what a cell size of -1 is :P
20:44:27 <pikhq> Deewiant: Oh good. :)
20:44:30 <Deewiant> pikhq: Of course, it doesn't specify how "infinity" should be represented ;-P
20:44:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, Deewiant, yeah I basically declared "infinity" to be equal to -1.
20:45:29 <AnMaster> it was the least insane representation I could think of
20:45:56 <AnMaster> of course it breaks slowdown.b98, which tries to load a program at a random point in the address space and then jump to it
20:45:56 <Sgeo__> How about having it be the maximum value of a cell
20:46:09 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, um.... do you know what a bignum is?
20:46:39 <AnMaster> port(tos_in, sos_in: in std_logic_vector(4294967296 downto 0);
20:46:39 <AnMaster> tos_out, sos_out: in std_logic_vector(4294967296 downto 0);
20:46:52 <Sgeo__> Hm, what prevents storing such a large number in a bugnum that it slows down the computer?
20:47:03 <AnMaster> yes the stack will be finite due to not being able to avoid it
20:47:26 <AnMaster> sure on any given hardware it will be limited
20:47:31 <pikhq> The point of bignums is for it to be possible to be obnoxiously large.
20:47:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, and on an UTM they could be infinite even
20:47:56 <pikhq> Indeed, they could.
20:48:05 <AnMaster> now, someone should port erlang to an UTM :P
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20:48:40 <AnMaster> of course you'd have to rewrite it in another language. Since current implementations are written in C.
20:48:50 <AnMaster> old ones were written in prolog iirc
20:49:06 <AnMaster> (way before erlang went open source)
20:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: For the Life thing, would it be better to have a hugely parallel collection of cells, or to have a central CPU which evolves some memory?
20:55:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, How do you mean with the latter
20:55:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, basically a dedicated CPU with some microcode + a lot of SRAM?
20:56:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, both are interesting IMO
20:56:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, want a list of some open source ASIC design tools?
20:56:36 <AnMaster> or do you plan the VHDL thing still
20:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: The RAM one seems like it's more easily extensible.
20:56:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, ever heard of the transputer?
20:57:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the transputer was basically grid based. Each CPU talked to the ones in the cardinal directions of it iirc
20:57:53 <AnMaster> (or was it some other connection scheme, but basically yeah)
20:58:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also do you plan to do it at FPGA level or lower level (silicon)
20:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> In VHDL is there and instruction for "take component x and stick a tonne of them together in a grid".
20:58:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there is some for-generate loop
20:59:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can _simulate_ both with open source tools
20:59:20 <AnMaster> I don't have access to any FPGAs either currently
20:59:34 <AnMaster> well I do at university, but I doubt I fit this into the lab time ;P
20:59:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I like the "fabricate the grid in a torus" idea.
21:00:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yeah you would need a lot of small dies
21:00:17 <AnMaster> so you get minimal bend at each
21:00:24 <AnMaster> but overall, you get some bend
21:01:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it was like in the lab recently. Some prankster had taken all the female-female-serial-cable-converters and hooked them up into something that was almost a complete circle
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21:01:20 <AnMaster> (not quite enough for a complete circle)
21:01:34 <AnMaster> and then leaned the thing against a wall
21:01:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that circle? Someone having fun. The lab assistant laughed quite loudly when he found it
21:02:42 <AnMaster> since we don't have unsupervised access to that lab room
21:02:49 <AnMaster> (lots of expensive stuff there)
21:03:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh and ASIC = Application Specific Integrated Circuit
21:03:39 <AnMaster> as in, you get your own in raw silicon. Like the big boys
21:03:56 <AnMaster> yes it is a pain to do even something like a NAND gate in it
21:04:04 <Phantom_Hoover> That is so far out of my league it's approaching it from the other side.
21:04:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, THAT IS WHAT SIMULATION IS FOR :(
21:04:55 <AnMaster> electric (wtf gui but I actually was able to do something in it!), magic (heard it was good, never tried it)
21:05:02 <AnMaster> you draw the silicon stuff there
21:05:15 <AnMaster> iirc electric can also generate some of it from simple low level VHDL
21:05:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but yeah better do it at FPGA level. Like, you are more likely to actually pull it off
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21:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I know Verilog in the sense that I can vaguely recognise the syntax.
21:06:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about VHDL?
21:07:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, this might be way out of your league then
21:07:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well there is the clock issue
21:08:05 <AnMaster> especially if you combine multiple ones
21:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that it's extremely unlikely that I'll ever make a single one.
21:09:06 <AnMaster> doing it async could be possible... but you would be in different generations everywhere
21:09:21 <AnMaster> and you need a lot of tricky stuff to do this in a safe way
21:09:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah and that is tricky. I know the theory in a vague kind of way. I know I couldn't pull it off
21:10:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I _also_ know ais523 said he gave a talk on it one day before I asked him about it
21:10:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you know, some university made an async MIPS CPU
21:10:55 <AnMaster> it ran at like 130% or something of the equiv sync
21:11:10 <AnMaster> and adjusted to temperature to always run the fastest possible
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21:11:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like SPARC, x86, PPC or whatever
21:11:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if you have a router or ADSL modem it is not completely unlikely that it contains a MIPS
21:12:05 <AnMaster> they seem to be popular in things like that mostly nowdays
21:14:52 <AnMaster> well, it would be kind of fast
21:15:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so I suggest a clocked parallel one
21:16:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw can you do hashlife on a torus?
21:17:19 <AnMaster> was trying to parse that a few times
21:17:26 <AnMaster> brb need to get something quick to eat
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21:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but hashlife in hardware would be a task that would drive a brave man insane
21:24:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a funge stack is near driving me insane
21:24:24 <AnMaster> I could pastebin my current work
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21:25:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, WIP: http://sprunge.us/VIEd
21:26:10 <AnMaster> and yeah it doesn't currently compile
21:26:21 <AnMaster> I just copied what was in my text editor at that moment
21:26:58 <AnMaster> also I'm not sure what I'm doing is completely valid VHDL
21:27:13 <AnMaster> I think it might need a few cycles. which is irritating
21:27:21 <AnMaster> I was hoping to do it at 1 command / cycle
21:27:28 <AnMaster> but I don't think that will be feasible any more
21:28:42 <AnMaster> also that is async (might have to be rewritten to be sync)
21:32:07 <AnMaster> um yeah needs to be sync... sigh
21:35:11 <AnMaster> how fun. Funge-space is 1 cycle memory. Stack is 2 at least
21:40:58 <AnMaster> src/stack.vhdl:58:62: conversion not allowed between not closely related types
21:42:03 <Deewiant> That can happen if your family tree is too wide; your types become so unrelated that they don't convert to each other
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21:45:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually it didn't like unsigned(2047)
21:45:53 <AnMaster> I just converted it by hand to "11111111111"
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21:56:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It would need one bit of storage and 8 in- and outputs.
22:03:40 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:04:01 <AnMaster> 8 inputs, 8 outputs, one clock input
22:04:13 <AnMaster> doing inout would not be a good idea
22:04:45 <AnMaster> a signal that can be both in and out, but you can't really use them both ways at once
22:05:05 <AnMaster> it is used for stuff like data bus on memory
22:05:18 <AnMaster> which depending on if you are in read or write mode will act in different ways
22:05:52 <AnMaster> inout is the vhdl keyword for it
22:07:22 <AnMaster> oh you mean initial programming
22:07:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, NO NOT 19 inputs
22:07:51 <AnMaster> inputs and outputs are different
22:08:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you need some way to load the values yes
22:08:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest targeted EMP ;P
22:10:01 <AnMaster> well, you need two I think. Since it is basically a latch. Either you could have one set and one reset. Or you could have one "data bit" and one "load data bit"
22:10:20 <AnMaster> possibly they could be connected in a grid
22:10:39 <AnMaster> that would mean three load inputs for each but a lot easier wiring outside
22:10:56 <AnMaster> basically you have "row active" and "column active"
22:11:05 <AnMaster> then you only read the value if both are true
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22:11:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I could write the needed cell quite quickly. It actually wouldn't need one output in each direction from a VHDL point of view
22:14:11 * pikhq contemplates adding further optimisations to his compiler
22:14:48 <pikhq> It's currently only barely-optimising, but fairly well setup for a large number of optimisations.
22:14:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: x86 assembly, nasm format, for Linux.
22:15:43 <pikhq> Written primarily as an amusing timesink.
22:16:03 <pikhq> But I figure if I'm going to amuse myself writing a not-very-useful thing, I might as well do it *well*.
22:16:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Makes optimisations hard to implement.
22:16:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, still possible. After all bf is TC unlike C
22:16:53 <pikhq> Whereas in C, it's quite simple to write functions over the parse tree.
22:16:58 <pikhq> Possible, yes, but annoying.
22:17:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, remind me of the rules for life
22:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Dead->live iff 3 live, live->live iff 2 or 3 love.
22:18:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Should mostly work.
22:18:52 <pikhq> It's fairly normal C99, aside from the tail-call recursion.
22:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't have IO, so it probably won't work for you.
22:19:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so we just do a Moore automaton in hardware or some such
22:19:17 <pikhq> I either use stdin or a file, and stdout.
22:19:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no dying if too many alive?
22:19:50 <AnMaster> that is some life variant right?
22:19:51 * pikhq looks at some of the optimisations done by esotope
22:21:33 * AnMaster wonders how to get a bit count on a std_logic_vector in vhdl
22:21:45 <pikhq> Hmm. esotope-bfc needs a Brainfuck backend.
22:23:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, it would be hard, since it translates stuff to higher level
22:23:02 <pikhq> esotope-bfc's code isn't that clean. :(
22:23:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Best Brainfuck compiler.
22:23:37 <pikhq> Example output: int main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");}
22:25:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, meh I can't think of a good way to counts number of set bits in VHDL
22:26:26 <AnMaster> no ways except for creating a counter and checking every bit
22:26:43 <pikhq> It also has very amusing results on hanoi.b
22:26:51 <pikhq> (it's too fast to watch)
22:27:08 <pikhq> It's too fast to watch *with valgrind*.
22:27:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, you have a fast computer
22:27:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well lets say we have 11100000 and 00000111
22:27:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, now those are different binary numbers
22:29:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm. Probably the Esolang archive.
22:29:38 <pikhq> Otherwise, look for the "bfcomp" package; it's in there.
22:30:08 <pikhq> (it's written in a somewhat high-level language targetting Brainfuck. Produces some ridiculously inefficient output, though.)
22:31:19 <pikhq> Just running a dead-code pass on it knocks out 778 characters...
22:32:43 <AnMaster> elsif present_state = alive and cnt = 2 then
22:33:30 <AnMaster> yeah vhdl has an annoying syntax.
22:37:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, okay, done but not tested. (syntax check okay, but test bench code for vhdl takes a while)
22:37:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, http://sprunge.us/RVPh
22:38:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that would be one life cell
22:38:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, have a look at that code
22:39:16 <AnMaster> it might be more readable with VHDL syntax highlighting
22:40:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, pikhq http://pastebin.com/VLBRYUZc
22:40:41 <AnMaster> the custom dead/alive type could have been skipped
22:40:45 <AnMaster> making the code somewhat more compact
22:40:55 <AnMaster> but that would not be good coding style I think ;P
22:41:29 <AnMaster> I heard verilog has saner syntax
22:42:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so each cell needs to be hooked up to clock and the output from each to the 8 cells next to it
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22:42:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh and I forgot to implement load I see
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22:46:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, okay here is a new one: http://pastebin.com/6AM9MFGD
22:46:43 <AnMaster> since it no longer uses a custom data type it is a lot more compact
22:46:53 <poiuy_qwert> anyone here played Manufactoria: http://jayisgames.com/games/manufactoria/ ?
22:47:11 <pikhq> No, we know not games.
22:47:21 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, needs flash. I don't have (nor want) flash. What is it about?
22:47:23 <pikhq> We know not but code.
22:48:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh and I have no idea whatsoever if that for loop works
22:48:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, would of course need a comprehensive test bench testing all possible inputs in both alive and dead state.
22:48:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no CTCP TIME reply?
22:49:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I got no reply
22:49:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what time is it there?
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23:09:04 <oerjan> !haskell map fromEnum "Å"
23:09:35 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ map fromEnum "Å"
23:11:22 <oerjan> !haskell main = putStrLn . map toEnum $ map fromEnum "Å"
23:12:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That's a single Unicode codepoint, it just happens to be a UTF-8 character. And Char stores codepoints. :)
23:12:08 <oerjan> huh EgoBot converts from utf-8 on input but not to it on output
23:13:05 <oerjan> pikhq: yes but until recently haskell I/O used Latin-1, not UTF-8
23:13:15 <oerjan> hm what version of ghc is EgoBot using
23:13:44 <oerjan> and the worst thing is that EgoBot now converts from utf-8 on input, but not to it on output
23:14:04 <EgoBot> unknown command ':version'
23:14:14 <EgoBot> Commands available from the prompt:
23:15:26 <EgoBot> syntax: :show [args|prog|prompt|editor|stop|modules|bindings|breaks|context]
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23:33:49 <oerjan> oh wait ghc reads _code_ as utf-8 of course
23:34:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:34:32 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:34:40 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
23:35:42 <oerjan> !addinterp cp haskell main=interact$show.map fromEnum
23:35:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter cp installed.
23:36:51 <EgoBot> [195,133,32,195,132,32,195,150,32,195,165,32,195,164,32,195,182,10]
23:38:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter cp deleted.
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23:44:04 <oerjan> !addinterp bytes haskell main=interact$show.map fromEnum
23:44:04 <EgoBot> Interpreter bytes installed.
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23:51:48 <EgoBot> haskell main=interact$show.map fromEnum
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00:27:54 <uorygl> `translate Pero lo debo aprender para que pueda hablar con mis amigos que hablan alemán.
00:28:06 <uorygl> `translate Pero lo debo aprender para que pueda hablar con mis amigos que hablan aleman.
00:28:39 <oerjan> `translatefromto es en Pero lo debo aprender para que pueda hablar con mis amigos que hablan aleman.
00:28:42 <uorygl> What HackEgo means to say is, "But I learn so she can talk to my friends who speak German."
00:28:58 <uorygl> Which is a pretty bad translation. The word "debo" just got dropped, and where does that "she" come from?
00:29:30 <oerjan> well it has to choose a pronoun...
00:30:13 <oerjan> pueda is 3rd person isn't it
00:30:33 * oerjan doesn't actually know spanish but can make a guess
00:31:01 <oerjan> and i guess debo is "i must"
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00:31:31 <oerjan> and lo was also dropped
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00:33:06 <oerjan> `translatefromto es en Que
00:33:22 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't do spanish at all, does it
00:33:44 <oerjan> `translatefromto en es What about the reverse?
00:34:04 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no What about the reverse?
00:34:36 <oerjan> `translate Har google skiftet format igjen?
00:34:52 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en Har google skiftet format igjen?
00:35:18 <oerjan> Gregor: it would appear `translate may have broken completely?
00:35:54 <oerjan> `translatefromto en de Are they all broken?
00:36:14 <oerjan> `which translatefromto
00:36:15 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.26530/bin/translatefromto
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01:29:11 <Gregor> oerjan: Don't tell me, FIX IT!
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02:33:28 <pikhq_> elliottcable: Even #esoteric?
02:33:45 <elliottcable> ##MacOSX is my social channel of choice nowaadys
02:33:59 <elliottcable> though I’ve a new language for you all to discuss, soon enough
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02:38:23 <Sgeo> How far do companies typically cyberstalk their employees?
02:38:42 <Gregor> To the VERY BRINK OF DEATH
02:39:06 <Sgeo> If I mention on my resume some of the projects I've worked on, they may trace that to the name "Sgeo", and from there to the fact that I'm an atheist. Legally, they can't not hire me for that, but if I don't know that that's the reason...
02:39:46 <Gregor> What sort of shitty field are you looking for jobs in that that would be a hinderance?
02:40:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: no no, they won't hire you because you're _paranoid_. you see, they hate paranoid people.
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02:42:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: Most companies are absolutely *lazy* about such things.
02:43:41 <pikhq> Don't expect them to do much more than call a reference or two.
02:44:21 <oerjan> yeah they never call your values
02:44:31 <pikhq> Also, the odds of not being hired for being atheist are fairly low in any not-completely-shitty field.
02:45:17 <pikhq> *There exist atheist priests for goodness sake*. (I'll grant that they're with the Unitarian Universalists, so this *isn't* a contradiction in terms, but still.)
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02:50:53 <Sgeo> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/irtc.htm SQUEE
02:57:57 <oerjan> or wait, am i confusing it with witches
02:58:10 <oerjan> well, you could be a wicca priest
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02:59:50 <pikhq> oerjan: You burn witches, you build bridges out of priests.
03:01:05 <oerjan> "On the Friday after Ash Wednesday Pope Benedict XVI addressed the priests of his diocese and referred to the priest as a bridge and mediator ...
03:01:06 <pikhq> And you burn the bridges made of Wiccan priests.
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03:36:54 <Gregor> I have some new material.
03:36:55 <Gregor> I'll give augur's response in advance though: "It's too stylistically different blah blah calculus of styles"
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04:12:18 <Sgeo> Why does myndzi\ have a \? It makes oerjan's \o/ less effective to me
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04:12:45 <myndzi> i'm stress testing my internet sorta
04:12:53 <myndzi> but weirdly, i did more torrenting than this the other day and no problems
04:13:01 <oerjan> don't break the internet!
04:13:39 <myndzi> i don't know why the number of connections would matter, but it seems that maybe that is the case
04:13:45 <myndzi> maybe it's comcast lies about fucking with network traffic
04:13:57 <myndzi> but my modem keeps rebooting / losing synch
04:15:49 * oerjan points out he only saw you disconnect once, anyhow
04:16:23 <myndzi> yeah, my ip didn't change and i guess there was not enough data on the pipe for the connection to die
04:16:28 <myndzi> i've disconnected like 5 times on dalnet
04:16:41 <myndzi> in the past 20-30 minutes
04:16:48 <myndzi> after a 160 hour connect streak
04:17:00 <myndzi> so it must be something with these torrents
04:17:14 <myndzi> it's gotta be my link, too, since the cable modem log shows errors and reconnects
04:17:31 <myndzi> but i was downloading the other day at like 1.5 MB/sec
04:17:36 <myndzi> and now 500k does it to me?
04:18:42 <myndzi> it won't bother me too much if i know what's going on and what settings to use to avoid it
04:18:46 <myndzi> both for me and my brother
04:18:57 <myndzi> but it bothers me that it seems random
04:19:14 <oerjan> it might depend on how much the neighbors use the net?
04:20:00 <oerjan> that's my theory whenever the local net here is dog slow, anyhow
04:20:05 <myndzi> my speed test was like 660/16000
04:20:14 <myndzi> i'm using a fraction of that
04:20:27 <myndzi> and it's not going slow, it's losing synch and reconnecting or something
04:20:32 <myndzi> i don't know what is technically going on, but i'd like to
04:20:47 <oerjan> well i'm definitely not the expert to ask
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04:33:09 <pikhq> It's Comcast. You really expect them to be anything but full of shit?
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04:34:14 <myndzi> the thing that really rankles with me is i left speakeasy for this bullshit :(
04:36:09 <Gregor> You left ... speakeasy ... for comcast.
04:36:11 <Gregor> What are you, an idiot?
04:38:18 <pikhq> ... *You left Speakeasy*. What are you, an idiot?
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04:53:21 <pikhq> sshc: Join us in making fun of myndzi.
04:57:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Inquiry: should I add that 'ADDTO' optimisation that egobfi seems to have to my BF->asm compiler? Though it'd make me have better output, I'm not sure whether or not I should give a damn about that.
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04:58:46 <pikhq> Hooray, I've been given an excuse to giveadamn.
04:59:06 <pikhq> Gregor: Just out of curiosity, how much of an improvement does that usually make?
04:59:31 <Gregor> I didn't really do much benchmarking :P
05:02:02 <oerjan> madam, this is not a palindrome, but i don't give a damn
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05:04:05 <Gregor> greasemonkey is sitting on someone's lap.
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05:10:20 <pikhq> Incidentally, this optimisation looks *ugly* using linked lists.
05:10:34 <pikhq> && l->head.x.loop->tail->tail->tail->head.x.count == -1
05:12:05 <Gregor> augur, pikhq, anybody else: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp5.ogg (really, only added to the end since wipp 4 .... I have a whole other section to add somewhere, but it doesn't fit yet :P )
05:12:51 * pikhq shall listen when HTTP next
05:13:45 <augur> Gregor: cant right now
05:14:40 * Gregor imagines a giant HTTP wheel spinning, with HTTP only flowing out of one hole on its edge, and pikhq constantly waiting for the gears to grind the wheel all the way 'round so he can collect some of the precious HTTP.
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05:17:58 <pikhq> I'm thinking I should rewrite this in Haskell; it's starting to look *ugly* in C, and would benefit massively from pattern matching.
05:18:16 <pikhq> Not to mention not having NULL pointers...
05:18:50 <pikhq> coppro: Brainfuck compiler.
05:19:51 <pikhq> I've got 5 lines here in C that could be replaced with 1 simple line in Haskell...
05:19:52 <pikhq> case x@(Loop [Move arg1, _, Move arg2]) of arg1 == arg2*-1 ->
05:20:40 <pikhq> Erm. Sorry. That's wrong and I SUCK
05:25:18 <pikhq> HYPERTEXT TRANSPORT PROTOCOL
05:25:21 <pikhq> OH HOW I MISSED THEE
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05:36:11 <zzo38> Have you ever seen "Uncarrot Tarot"?
05:36:41 <zzo38> The majors do not have ranks, but there are metas which trump over the majors
05:36:51 <zzo38> There are four complete suits and some incomplete suits
05:37:22 <zzo38> And when doing fortune readings with them, you are not supposed to shuffle the cards
05:38:20 <zzo38> My idea is to make a game where the "Pickle" card can be played as either a major or as the ace of pickles.
05:39:26 <zzo38> Perhaps if one player leads the four of pickles, you can play this card as the ace, but if you are void of the suit led it can be played as a trump, which will win unless a meta is played.
05:40:26 <myndzi> i want to get a regular tarot deck
05:40:28 <coppro> play Cripple Mr. Onion
05:40:32 <myndzi> playing cards, not mystical fortune telling bs
05:45:48 <zzo38> Yes, I want to get a regular tarot deck as well
05:46:57 <zzo38> But my idea for the Uncarrot Tarot is a game like that, but there is one question, what happens if multiple majors are played to a trick or if multiple metas are played to a trick, who wins? One idea is that they cancel each other out, another idea is the last one played wins the trick.
05:47:50 <zzo38> Uncarrot Tarot is incompatible with normal tarot decks, however.
05:48:00 <Gregor> pikhq, augur: Incidentally, I sure love this section that augur doesn't :P
05:48:09 <zzo38> I did make up a new tarot deck for PySol, and some rulesets http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
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05:50:01 <zzo38> And for playing Cripple Mr.Onion, I would use the ULTRACARD, but those cards have not been produced yet. I have just written the idea so far. Just treat the blue dots as extra suits.
05:51:41 <zzo38> I would like your opinion about the cardset I created for PySol. (If you don't have PySol, you can just load the images with ImageMagick display command or Windows Picture And Fax Viewer, or whatever)
05:53:09 <zzo38> I am unsure where to buy any tarot deck, however, even though I want to buy one. I have seen a lot of tarot readers, however I am unsure if they actually sell any cards.
05:53:37 <zzo38> One game played with regular tarot cards is Gnostica, have you heard of it?
05:53:48 <zzo38> Gnostica also requires Icehouse pieces as well, though.
06:11:06 <Gregor> I'll bet the challenge of the game has something to do with gaining relevant knowledge.
06:12:43 <zzo38> Of which game, do you mean Gnostica?
06:12:52 <zzo38> Just look it up if you have a web browser window open
06:13:07 <Gregor> I was just riffing on the name :P
06:13:51 <zzo38> How much did you bet?
06:14:18 <Gregor> 'twas a gentlemen's bet.
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06:46:43 <zzo38> Do you like the cardset?
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07:26:35 <zzo38> Can it be done in Python to make a code that modifies an existing class?
07:27:09 <zzo38> PySol has one broken game "Le Grande Teton" and I want to fix it
07:29:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, to some extent
07:29:28 <Sgeo> But not as syntactically easily as, say, Ruby
07:31:26 <zzo38> How do you write a code to change an existing class, then?
07:32:00 <Sgeo> Well, to change a function, um, hold on
07:34:02 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/6Neq2
07:34:09 <Sgeo> I wasn't actually expecting c1.a() to do that
07:35:44 <Sgeo> Non-new-style-classes do the same thing
07:35:50 <Sgeo> This is Python 2.something BTW
07:38:34 <zzo38> Now I will try to see if it is fixed
07:40:35 <zzo38> Now it moved a XVI onto a 4 (which is certainly wrong)
07:41:29 <zzo38> O, I might have made a mistake
07:43:01 <zzo38> No, it is still broken!
07:43:31 <Sgeo> If it calls the function BEFORE you reassign, it won't work
07:44:07 <zzo38> It doesn't call the function before reassign
07:46:35 <zzo38> O, I think I made another mistake
07:49:09 <zzo38> PySol loads slowly
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07:52:02 <zzo38> I put the fixed file available http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
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07:55:32 <zzo38> This game is too much easy, however.
07:55:51 <zzo38> Perhaps add some rules having to do with suits?
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08:02:56 <zzo38> One good one is Wicked (like Cruel but with tarot cards)
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13:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone opinionated on this tell me what the difference between software and normal patents is?
13:59:26 <pineapple> assuming you didn't mean s/opinionated/informed/
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14:36:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: software patents have a much longer timespan relative to the length of time the thing they implement remains useful for, than hardware patents
14:37:04 <ais523> a 50-year-old internal combustion engine might be outmoded nowadays, but it's still potentially useful
14:37:11 <ais523> 50-year-old software is basically useless
14:37:27 <ais523> so the idea of patents - to give people a limited monopoly in return for disclosing how the thing works - is subverted
14:37:42 <ais523> especially as software patents tend not even to disclose how the things works nowadays
14:37:50 <ais523> old inventions, the idea was you could reproduce the whole thing from the patent
14:38:15 <ais523> many modern hardware patents have the same problem, tbh
14:38:49 <pineapple> patents these days are broader so that people are "scared off"
14:39:00 <pineapple> but braoder patents tend to be harder to defend
14:39:29 <pineapple> because if it's too broad, you might end up covering some undesired "prior art"
14:39:33 <ais523> yep, but attacking a patent is so expensive that unless you're a big company, in practice you can't
14:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So the problem is primarily one of relative tome limits?
14:39:36 <ais523> even if it's a really weak one
14:39:39 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: IMO, yes
14:39:44 <pineapple> ais523: your answer was helpful for me as well
14:40:15 <ais523> I'd have nothing against, say, 2-to-3-year software patents
14:40:48 <ais523> especially if they came with source code, like hardware patents used to come with blueprints
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15:14:46 <ais523> check the history, see when it happened
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16:15:11 <Gregor> (re patents) The problem is that your ability to defend a patent has nothing to do with the merit of the patent, and everything to do with how much cash you can throw at the problem.
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16:18:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, that is one of the problems
16:18:39 <AnMaster> another is the length of them as ais said. And what sort of things can be patented is another issue (genes anyone?)
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17:28:46 <ais523> is it about something I actually know about?
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17:39:32 <Zuu> It is a Phantom_Hoover !
17:40:38 * Zuu throws a lot of phantoms under Phantom_Hoover to make him hoover even better
17:41:02 <Zuu> or is that not how it works?
17:41:38 <Zuu> i thought you were hoovering on phantoms
17:42:01 <Zuu> like a water hoover
17:42:08 <Zuu> just phantom hoover
17:42:54 <Zuu> oh well, im not really into all the phantom and hoovering stuff :)
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17:58:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, somewhere on a pastebin, check logs
17:58:32 <AnMaster> also it was 1) untested (syntax check with ghdl passed but no more testing than that) 2) just one cell
17:58:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I have an issue with a port map
17:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, in vhdl, basically I have a std_logic_vector of 32 bits that I want to reverse
17:59:20 <ais523> use a for-generate loop to reverse it rather than trying to mess with the numbering
17:59:22 <AnMaster> like: foo(32 downto 0) => bar(0 to 32)
17:59:53 <ais523> AnMaster: because mismatched numbering is a compile error
17:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, how would that work for a single component? There is an exact copy of the same component where it should not be reversed
18:00:08 <ais523> make a wire-reverse module
18:00:18 <AnMaster> ais523, okay so how do you do this with a for generate as you said? :/
18:00:22 <ais523> umm, component, not module
18:00:51 <ais523> I can't remember the exact syntax (I just get Emacs to do it), but you want 32 iterations, one which connects each wire
18:00:54 <ais523> and just use simple arithmetic
18:01:15 <AnMaster> ais523, another thing, timing, is the wait construct simulation only?
18:01:42 <ais523> all forms of it, even the infinite loop
18:01:52 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you get the same effect as "wait for rising_edge(clock)" in synthesisable code?
18:01:52 <ais523> there are huge restrictions on processes in synthesis
18:01:59 <AnMaster> err, not sure that syntax was perfectly correct
18:02:12 <ais523> pretty much all you're allowed is a process that contains nothing but one if statement
18:02:16 <ais523> that's conditioned on a rising edge
18:02:24 <ais523> and that's how you do it
18:02:58 <ais523> even more so, it's only synthesisable if you write the statement exactly, not a synonym
18:03:05 <AnMaster> that makes the stack a headache
18:03:08 <ais523> things like writing a comparison backwards defeat synthesisers
18:03:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what about arrays and unsigned, are those also simulation only?
18:03:51 <ais523> just look up the exact template for it online
18:03:54 <ais523> or use Emacs, it knows it
18:04:09 <ais523> arrays can be synthesised, within reason
18:04:16 <ais523> it basically just makes a multiplexer to access them
18:04:22 <ais523> but I think any individual array's write-only or read-only
18:04:24 <AnMaster> because trying to map funge space to linear backing memory I can only figure out a solution using a cast to unsigned and then back to std_logic_vector
18:04:35 <ais523> basically it's a set of wires and you can choose the nth wire to look at
18:04:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah so good thing I made the memory a separate module
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18:04:52 <AnMaster> since current implementation is likely simulation only
18:04:58 <ais523> and you can do unsigned arithmetic on std_logic_vector easily enough
18:05:54 <AnMaster> ais523, std_logic_vector(unsigned(x) * 25 + unsigned(y)); <-- what about that? simulation only?
18:06:26 <AnMaster> and if yes, what is a better solution to map the funge space to linear address
18:07:01 <ais523> AnMaster: syntax looks muddled, there; you want a variable of type std_logic_vector, not a std_logic_vector itself
18:07:08 <ais523> but it's actually synthesisable IIRC
18:07:19 <ais523> yep, but some casts synthesise
18:07:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it is assigned to a signal that is connected to the memory entity
18:07:49 <ais523> really, try reading the standards, they explain what's synthesisable and what isn't
18:07:57 <ais523> you can't expect me to remember after a couple of years
18:08:05 <ais523> (I'm not sure if they're free online, though)
18:08:32 <AnMaster> if so I should be able to get it through what university subscribes to
18:08:37 <AnMaster> if it is ISO I'm out of luck...
18:10:03 <AnMaster> ais523, so another question, how would you do the stack? I was considering an entity that exposes the top two values on stack as "registers" basically, plus a push and a pop signal.
18:10:12 <AnMaster> but trying to implement it proved hard
18:10:37 <ais523> array with a pointer into it
18:10:45 <ais523> same way you do a stack in asm
18:11:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and how would one expose it outwards of the stack entity then?
18:11:50 <AnMaster> or is that abstracting too much ;P
18:12:03 <ais523> try not to abstract /too/ much
18:12:11 <ais523> my advice would be to have the TOS available as a signal for anything to read
18:12:19 <ais523> together with signals to increase and decrease the stack pointer
18:12:27 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you do \ and such then?
18:12:35 <AnMaster> it would need two cycles wouldn't it?
18:12:44 <ais523> yes, unless you pipeline
18:13:19 <ais523> hmm, could be hard in befunge with p and g
18:13:38 <ais523> but the basic idea is you have registers for the top few stack elements, which are normally read and written, and you do the stack updates "in the background" at the same time
18:13:45 <ais523> it's pretty complex that way, though
18:13:50 <ais523> maybe you should just take multiple cycles
18:13:57 <ais523> that's what most early processors did
18:14:32 <AnMaster> also handling stack emtpy would need some special logic, so having TOS just a signal seems a bit tricky. Something need to handle popping and pushing as well. And the logic of stack empty at least
18:14:52 <AnMaster> stack full handling doesn't have a sensible answer anyway
18:15:36 <AnMaster> ais523, a fixed number of cycles per instruction or variable depending on which instruction?
18:16:01 <ais523> on the contrary, stack empty is really easy
18:16:11 <ais523> if you try to decrease the SP when it's at 0 already, just leave it alone and write a 0
18:16:14 <AnMaster> conclusion: bottom-up-design does not work very well for VHDL
18:19:07 <AnMaster> the TOS/inc/dec thing would need to be extended with some sort of data in? or did you mean TOS to be inout basically? Plus something would have to update it from the array on push and pop, so presumably that would be clocked... hm
18:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, splitting the stack logic and such over multiple cycles seems pretty complex as well
18:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> What are the esi and edi registers in x86 actually for?
18:20:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, aren't they GPR?
18:20:30 <ais523> they're pointer registers
18:20:45 <ais523> for use with instructions that automatically update the pointers
18:21:03 <ais523> I'm trying to remember the names
18:21:08 <ais523> but I used them with http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX
18:21:19 <AnMaster> btw I'm pretty sure I seen GCC generate code that uses those as GPR
18:21:33 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the SW stand for there?
18:21:42 <ais523> which is (*(short*)di++) = (*(short*)si++)
18:21:45 <ais523> and string word, I think
18:21:58 <AnMaster> ais523, hm is it used with REP or such then?
18:22:08 <ais523> yes, designed for use with REP
18:22:15 <ais523> but it's rather nice for asm gold anyway
18:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Couldn't you have an incredibly small interpreter just by making it take x86 machine code and execute it?
18:23:08 <ais523> I suppose if you want "smallest non-cheating", you could insist that the interp code is non-self-modifying
18:23:17 <ais523> and that nothing in the original program's memory space is ever executed
18:23:22 <AnMaster> ais523, btw can VHDL express async circuits. I mean that type we discussed some weeks(?) ago? Quasi-something.
18:23:39 <ais523> although most synth tools won't synthesise them well
18:23:41 <AnMaster> huh, can't imagine how to be frank. XD
18:23:44 <ais523> because they assume a global clock
18:23:56 <ais523> and you'd need cores for the non-delay-insensitive parts
18:24:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be feasible to fabricate a circuit on a torus?
18:24:38 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc electric (FOSS VLSI EDA tool) can generate layout schematics from VHDL. Very very very restricted vhdl iirc but still..
18:24:53 <AnMaster> (hm nice acronym combo there XD)
18:25:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: ASIC fabrication is three-dimensional nowadays anyway
18:25:43 <ais523> and FPGAs probably have crossing wires internally too
18:26:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, depends on size of torus I suspect
18:27:11 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't ASICs still constructed on flat waffers though?
18:27:21 <ais523> they're not infinitely thin
18:27:42 <AnMaster> bbl got to rush, will be back in about 1 hour
18:27:51 <ais523> and the longer you expose the ASIC wafer to the doping agent, the deeper the p-type or n-type region goes
18:27:59 <ais523> do it several times, and you get "underground" regions
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19:03:23 <oerjan> that's cheating, there was no syn
19:05:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'd mock you for not knowing, except i'm looking it up myself
19:06:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol#Connection_establishment
19:07:06 <oerjan> apparently it can be used for DoS though
19:18:23 <oerjan> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockstress
19:21:01 <pikhq> oerjan: ... How can that work? Linux doesn't store any TCP state until the connection starts...
19:21:17 <pikhq> ... Oh. Wait. It actually finishes the connection and then doesn't use it.
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19:39:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> and the longer you expose the ASIC wafer to the doping agent, the deeper the p-type or n-type region goes <-- aha
19:39:44 <AnMaster> also wtf is up with middle mouse copy and paste
19:40:02 <AnMaster> never seen anything like this...
19:40:30 <AnMaster> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'd mock you for not knowing, except i'm looking it up myself <-- XD
19:40:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc syncookies are off by default
19:40:50 <AnMaster> need some sysctl to turn it on
19:41:02 <AnMaster> due to it restricting tcp window size or something iirc
19:41:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's silly.
19:42:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, well iirc it is encoded in the tcp window size upper bits or something
19:42:28 <pikhq> No, in the timestamps, wasn't it?
19:42:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SYN_cookies
19:43:07 <AnMaster> it needs to be stored somewhere apparently
19:43:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, so yeah it stored in timestamp or somewhere, but it had to store the MMS in it. Unless I misread that page.
19:43:50 <AnMaster> (bit tired, so quite possible)
19:44:00 <pikhq> It's Towel Day today.
19:44:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, and that iirc meant it couldn't allow the full range of MMS values, only some
19:44:41 <AnMaster> "There are, however, three caveats that take effect when SYN Cookies are in use. First, the server is limited to only 8 unique MSS values, as that's all that can be encoded in 3 bits."
19:44:57 <AnMaster> "Second, the server must reject all TCP options (such as large windows), because the server discards the SYN queue entry where that information would otherwise be stored."
19:45:48 <pikhq> I seem to recall an option to only start using SYN cookies when the SYN queue got filled.
19:46:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, that would be a reasonable compromise
19:46:24 <pikhq> Better to have slightly reduced performance than no performance, after all.
19:47:07 <AnMaster> anything like syncookies for that?
19:47:20 <pikhq> SCTP? What's that?
19:47:33 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol
19:47:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, it seems better than TCP when it comes to many things
19:48:36 <pikhq> It apparently uses cookies in connection negotiation.
19:48:48 <AnMaster> the API however seems to be a bit more complex to use (at least under linux). Though I haven't actually used it. Just looked at the docs
19:49:10 <AnMaster> could be some of the complex stuff was optional
19:49:16 <AnMaster> some of it was certainly I think
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19:57:55 * pikhq realises that you could still have an email with a bang path
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20:36:19 <pikhq> Can you call it "again" if it's the same damned war?
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20:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> A CA using the von Neumann neighbourhood should be representable as a planar graph.
21:15:42 <AnMaster> * pikhq realises that you could still have an email with a bang path <-- really?
21:18:19 <AnMaster> okay so it isn't copy and paste that is broken, it is middle click in X in general
21:18:38 <AnMaster> hm *tries mouse in other computer*
21:20:12 <AnMaster> (well at least not in the mouse, and I find it hard to believe that an usb host controller could break such that only middle click, nothing else, is broken)
21:26:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm remind me. Is it proven or not if wirecrossing is required for TC?
21:26:48 <Sgeo> http://antisocialrap.com/Future_Hop/Downloads/06-H2G2.mp3
21:27:02 <AnMaster> "proven", why the heck does aspell thing that is typoed?
21:27:28 <AnMaster> is it correct spelling or not?
21:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it depends on the definition of wire-crossing.
21:32:12 <Deewiant> See any dictionary. (I think you're misunderstanding what I called correct.)
21:33:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, it just requires that you get email using a not-IP protocol routed through an Internet-accessible host.
21:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so can a von Neumann CA be represented as a non-planar graph?
21:35:30 <pikhq> (that not-IP protocol could feasibly even be UUCP *over* IP. :P)
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21:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Why, oh why, has the Cthulhu musical not been performed?
21:53:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I must find a musical theatre company and threaten them until they do it.
21:55:10 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/firefox says near the bottom "It's your Firefox. Do what you want with it. Find an add-on that's perfect for you on Rock Your Firefox.". How very not true. I'm using Namoroka...
21:55:38 <AnMaster> (which exists because I'm not allowed to do what I want with firefox)
21:58:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It says that whether or not you're using Firefox.
21:58:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, build a firefox binary and distribute it with the official logo and under the name firefox. As a linux distro you have to either use upstream build or non-official branding
21:58:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, with non official branding it uses the code name of the release. Which happens to be namoroka for me
21:59:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it seems unreasonable to me. Only the mozilla project does this
21:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so that's why FFX3.5 worked weirdly when it was first released.
21:59:23 <AnMaster> no other project that I know of
22:00:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The trademark license is pretty silly.
22:00:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is just the case of who built it. And linux distros don't like firefox to check for updates to itself, it should be done with package manager there. I'm not sure how ubuntu manages to get the upstream official branding and not have the thing check for binary updates...
22:01:02 <pikhq> To use the official branding, you have to do some silly shit to be "authentic Firefox".
22:01:13 <AnMaster> hm about on ubuntu says "Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu"
22:01:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ubuntu complies with the trademark license.
22:01:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, and what does that license require?
22:01:30 <Zuu> Maybe someone already attempted to establish an alternative widespread unofficial bradking of the firefox browser?
22:01:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, ask the upstream to build it for you?
22:01:51 <Zuu> .. that you coul duse, instead of yet another different branding
22:01:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Limits the kinds of patches you can use.
22:02:13 <Zuu> Update your parser :P
22:02:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, well arch linux hardly ever use anything but upstream patches. Presumably the only thing they do is disable the "search for update" alternative and disable the branding
22:02:37 <pikhq> A major reason Debian stopped using official branding, for instance, was that it stopped them from backporting security updates.
22:03:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: They may be just using the codename as a CYA thing.
22:03:24 <pikhq> "We follow the trademark license *now*, but there's no guarantee we will in the future"
22:03:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Cover Your Ass.
22:03:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, okay they change one default setting too. Make it use the LANG env variable by default
22:04:18 <Zuu> AnMaster: well, i dont care to repeat myself just to fix a single typo
22:04:25 <AnMaster> -browser.startup.homepage=http://www.mozilla.org/projects/namoroka/
22:04:25 <AnMaster> +browser.startup.homepage=http://www.google.com/firefox
22:05:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, other than that it looks completely standard. And wtf at the build system config file. mozconfig contains lines like:
22:05:25 <AnMaster> ac_add_options --libdir=/usr/lib
22:05:48 <pikhq> Mozilla's build system is *awful*.
22:06:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, but but... ac_add_options? it sounds like autoconf. But autoconf doesn't take options from a file
22:06:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: See? Awful.
22:08:20 <AnMaster> anyway my original point is that that text on http://www.google.com/firefox is absurd when you consider this silly branding issure
22:08:37 <AnMaster> well, it seems to be randomly selected *shrug*
22:09:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, pikhq: that file also contains some bash code
22:09:32 <AnMaster> ac_add_options --with-branding=browser/branding/unofficial
22:09:47 <AnMaster> mk_add_options BUILD_OFFICIAL=1
22:09:48 <AnMaster> mk_add_options MOZILLA_OFFICIAL=1
22:10:08 <pikhq> Mozilla's source code is, as a whole, awful.
22:10:10 <AnMaster> oh and this sources another mozconfig file at the top:
22:10:13 <AnMaster> . $topsrcdir/browser/config/mozconfig
22:10:16 <pikhq> And possesses multiple garbage collectors.
22:10:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently it's written such that only Mozilla coders can use it
22:10:26 <AnMaster> so yeah definitely bash/shell of some sort
22:10:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, presumably the arch linux package maintainer managed to handle it
22:11:45 <AnMaster> strange subject line from spam: "70% off on alcoholics"
22:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIK the people who maintain distros are in fact disembodied brains in jars.
22:13:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: I especially hate how Mozilla likes to bundle individual copies of Gecko with each and every program of theirs.
22:13:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it part of xulrunner?
22:14:00 <AnMaster> at least arch linux builds against an external xulrunner
22:14:10 <AnMaster> so it is shared between firefox and thunderbird
22:14:10 <pikhq> Gecko is the entire rendering engine, including XUL.
22:14:41 <pikhq> XUL is a language supported by Gecko.
22:15:03 <AnMaster> <insert relevant question here>
22:15:09 <Zuu> represent user interface stuff
22:15:16 <pikhq> XUL describes the UI of a Gecko-engine program.
22:15:34 <pikhq> Along with Javascript, HTML, and CSS...
22:15:44 <pikhq> XULrunner is a thin wrapper around Gecko.
22:16:23 <AnMaster> btw what exactly does the SMART attribute Raw_Read_Error_Rate mean?
22:16:34 <AnMaster> it seems to behave in different ways on different disks I had
22:16:49 <pikhq> Anyways. Here's how Mozilla does their builds. Firefox has its own Gecko. Thunderbird has its own Gecko. Songbird has its own Gecko. XULrunner has its own Gecko.
22:17:14 <AnMaster> my current disks seems to either do it as some average over a short time and "worst" value never stored (worst == current always)
22:17:16 <pikhq> Because *libraries* are too hard.
22:17:39 <AnMaster> some other disks seems to do it as a ever-incrementing counter. Slowly yes
22:18:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, and firefox is linked against the same libxul as thunderbird is
22:18:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: I never said that they statically linked against Gecko.
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22:19:01 <pikhq> Yes, that's because you're using a nonofficial build.
22:19:13 <pikhq> One set to just link against the system copy of Gecko.
22:19:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, official builds must use separate?
22:19:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, even ubuntu official kind of build?
22:19:40 <AnMaster> if so that is not just silly. It is stupid
22:19:56 <pikhq> As the "shared XUL" thing is not officially supported.
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22:20:03 <AnMaster> stupid := silly with all the fun removed
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22:20:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, why on earth don't they start doing shared XUL? they could save download bw themselves. And it would take less space
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22:21:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, include xul installer with download. Install if not already installed
22:21:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They have shared libraries too y'know.
22:21:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well it could be download on demand
22:21:46 <AnMaster> a lot of installers on windows were like that last I looked
22:21:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The Firefox installers are already download on demand.
22:22:00 <AnMaster> as presumably offline install of browser or email app is fairly useless
22:22:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but they still *have* them.
22:22:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it already uses *.dll iirc
22:22:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is one possible issue. Depends on if the ABI is stable or not
22:23:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: It is *quite* stable.
22:23:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Binary interface.
22:23:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, what I meant was, would upgrading system copy when upgrading firefox require recompiling thunderbird as well?
22:23:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, application (what pikhq said)
22:24:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Only for 1.x versions *of Gecko*.
22:24:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, think API (application programming interface). Now API can be stable while ABI might not be. In that case just recompiling things would work. If API changes you would have to change the code using it as well.
22:24:44 <pikhq> (which happen quite rarely; there's been 9 such releases since Mozilla 1.0)
22:24:48 <AnMaster> also ABI can be compiler level stuff
22:24:56 <AnMaster> (like calling convention changes)
22:25:04 <AnMaster> but that is "kind of" a different type of ABI
22:25:12 <pikhq> (3 such releases since *Firefox* 1.0)
22:25:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh. So where do the updates to pass ACID3 and so go? Wouldn't that at least require update of gecko
22:26:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Those don't break ABI. :)
22:26:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh you mean 1.x versions break ABI?
22:26:37 <AnMaster> why not put that at the major number
22:26:45 <AnMaster> or is the major number for breaking API?
22:26:50 <pikhq> Because no-good-reason.
22:26:54 <pikhq> Probably for breaking API.
22:27:14 <pikhq> Which was last done when Netscape Navigator 4.0 was open-sourced, I *think*.
22:27:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, so a lot of no longer used cruft is still there?
22:27:49 <pikhq> Have you *looked* at Mozilla's code?
22:28:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, no. I heard enough horror stories
22:28:12 <AnMaster> and just looking at the build system was bad enough
22:28:30 <pikhq> They've still got VRML support in there somewhere.
22:28:44 <AnMaster> I want an elegant browser. Lean. Fast. Reasonably good support for various js stuff and such. Oh and open source.
22:29:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, VRML. What the heck was that. It sounds familiar
22:29:22 <pikhq> 90s technology for 3D stuff.
22:29:27 <pikhq> Firefox *might* still support it.
22:29:44 <AnMaster> do they plan a gecko 2 with cleaned up API?
22:30:01 <pikhq> For Firefox 4, IIRC.
22:30:18 <AnMaster> how far into the future is that?
22:30:23 <AnMaster> what is the next planned release?
22:30:51 <AnMaster> 2.0, 2.?, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.6, 4.0?
22:30:53 <pikhq> (not counting bug-fix releases against 3.6)
22:31:12 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure there was no 3.2, 3.3 or 3.4
22:31:19 <pikhq> 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, 3.6, 4.0
22:31:30 <pikhq> Firefox's versioning scheme is all sorts of odd.
22:31:35 <AnMaster> so didn't remember it quite right
22:32:01 <AnMaster> surely they must think about a reason to number it like that
22:32:02 <pikhq> Firefox is developed by a bunch of monkeys who can't do much well.
22:32:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, not the linux version no
22:32:55 <AnMaster> but the windows versions sucks
22:33:06 <AnMaster> no noscript, adblock and so on iirc
22:33:14 <pikhq> Webkit is an awesome engine.
22:33:29 <AnMaster> firebug is another nice firefox add-on
22:33:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yeah any browser lacking noscript and adblock functionality is just out of question
22:34:36 <pikhq> The extension support is still a work in progress.
22:34:43 <Sgeo> There is adblock, but it's not perfect
22:34:53 <Sgeo> There is builtin noscript stuff
22:34:58 <AnMaster> and then I mean the basics, noscript: block javascripts/plugins on pages unless allowed explicitly, ability to do temporary exception as well as store between sessions
22:35:17 <AnMaster> adblock: block on domains, regex on urls, a white list feature should exist
22:35:53 <AnMaster> sure noscript does a lot more, but I'm not very interested in that
22:36:22 <AnMaster> Sgeo, can it do what I mentioned?
22:36:41 <Sgeo> Don't know about the temporary exception stuff
22:36:43 <AnMaster> and which browser were you talking about?
22:37:01 <AnMaster> ah does the linux version have the same features? I have no idea
22:37:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo, also the adblock thing needs to be able to block on all type of urls. Not just images, included javascripts too (how else to get rid of google ads?)
22:37:41 <AnMaster> and included objects of other types
22:38:07 <Sgeo> The Adblock stuff are addons, don't know much about those
22:38:26 <Sgeo> But I don't think they actually block anything, they more hide it, iirc
22:38:34 * Sgeo uses Flashblock
22:39:07 <AnMaster> and I don't want tracking cookies and such
22:39:42 <AnMaster> cookies must be "always ask, dialog should allow: never from this site, always from this site, always but discard at end of session, allow once, deny once"
22:56:07 <AnMaster> At some point my harddrives will fail (of course). I make a prediction about that even: In the current RAID 1 configuration, /dev/sda will fail first.
22:56:28 <AnMaster> I'm fairly certain about this.
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22:58:15 <AnMaster> Why? Based on SMART attributes it seems slightly less excellent than /dev/sdb
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23:18:48 <Rugxulo> is AnMaster here or asleep or ... ?
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23:55:08 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, if you want to catch me use /msg and use a bouncer so you stay connected and I can reply :P
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00:02:50 <Rugxulo> yeah, I figured it was too late there
00:07:59 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so can a von Neumann CA be represented as a non-planar graph?
00:08:22 <oerjan> um, the neighborhood graphs for _both_ von Neumann and Moore neighboorhoods are planar.
00:09:04 <oerjan> if you mean anything else by represented, please specify. also, please read the logs.
00:09:46 <oerjan> but definitely von Neumann
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00:25:48 <uorygl> `translate Ellas comen unos tostitos.
00:34:31 <oerjan> uorygl: that lazy bum Gregor told me we should fix `translate ourselves
00:34:43 <oerjan> but i'll show him. i'll out-lazy him!
00:35:07 <oerjan> `translate I don't think that makes a difference
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03:50:15 <augur> brussel sprouts are so good omg
03:51:40 <Ilari> Especially with butter, heavy cream or something like that? :->
03:53:24 <Gregor> That's "Brussel's sprouts"
03:53:38 <Gregor> Minus the apostrophe :P
03:54:00 <Gregor> It's hard to type Brussels without thinking it's a possessive.
03:55:19 <pikhq> Easy when you recall that Brussels is a place name.
03:55:20 <augur> brussels sprouts, broccolo, oil, salt, pepper, baked
03:56:22 <augur> to brustle -- to bro rustle, that is, to steal bros from a field as they graze on natty ice
03:57:25 <pikhq> What is this strange language you speak, augur?
03:57:43 <augur> broccolo, you know, one head of broccoli
03:57:47 <augur> as opposed to mean heads
03:57:50 <augur> which are broccoli!
03:58:55 <Gregor> (broccoli glans is the head of broccoli :P )
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05:19:28 <Gregor> xkcdsucks is gonna have a field day
05:19:58 <oerjan> i thought the comic itself was nice
05:20:09 <oerjan> but the alt text could have been better
05:24:08 <Sgeo_> The xkcdsucks for 744 isn't up yet
05:25:13 <Sgeo_> http://wikisuperosity.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges Somehow, I don't think I'm going to bother to get involved with this wiki
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06:04:52 <AnMaster> <oerjan> very meta, xkcd <-- argh, parsing the alt text hurts
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09:00:56 <coppro> does anyone know of an X server that just forwards to another X server, but can have the target server disconnected and another one reattached later?
09:08:22 <AnMaster> coppro, eh, like screen for X?
09:08:37 <coppro> exactly like screen for X
09:08:53 <AnMaster> coppro, have a running xserver + X11vnc or such?
09:09:02 <coppro> that's too much work though
09:09:06 <AnMaster> or do you mean forward as in, reattach to desktop?
09:09:33 <coppro> yeah, it should run them in the local server
09:09:54 <AnMaster> I'm sure a lot of people would find it usefuk
09:10:00 <coppro> the toughest bit would be handling reattachment I think
09:10:22 <AnMaster> coppro, well, you need to hide deattch/reattach from the programs
09:10:33 <coppro> the program never notices
09:10:35 <AnMaster> since X can't handle that sort of stuff
09:10:45 <AnMaster> coppro, also opengl would be a pain
09:11:27 <coppro> stupid X persistent resources
09:11:27 <AnMaster> for example: nvidia drivers mmap stuffs iirc
09:12:26 <coppro> The local server would have to maintain anything like resources that might get buggered by a server restarting
09:12:48 <coppro> fortunately, an application already has to cope with being moved onto a new screen
09:13:05 <AnMaster> coppro, hm? that is the same X server isn't it?
09:13:17 <AnMaster> well, that way you don't have to change as much
09:13:39 <coppro> but so things like random "you lose OpenGL" are already accounted for (in theory)
09:14:03 <AnMaster> you don't lose opengl due to moving between screens do you?
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09:14:22 <coppro> if they have different cards and one has no drivers, you might
09:14:27 <AnMaster> also, as I said, I'm pretty sure X11 uses shm for local clients. And for opengl it would be very slow to use the socket method
09:15:24 <coppro> then I'll need to spoof it into thinking it's nonlocal
09:15:35 <AnMaster> coppro, and that is quite a speed difference
09:15:36 <coppro> (if I do in fact do this)
09:15:58 <AnMaster> opengl over non-shm is not feasible I suspect
09:16:15 <coppro> AnMaster: This is mostly intended for network use anyways. OpenGL speed is not a concern
09:16:17 <AnMaster> coppro, of course you could use shm against the client but then socket to the server
09:16:34 <AnMaster> it depends on how much you are willing to do
09:16:41 <coppro> I'd have to research the spec more. It's quite possible OpenGL isn't really feasible to implement
09:17:08 <AnMaster> coppro, there are other stuff than opengl that could cause issues
09:17:22 <coppro> Anything that X persists would have to be intercepted by the proxy
09:17:38 <coppro> it would have to persist them itself, and establish new copies of them when it connected to a new server
09:17:55 <coppro> I don't think that matters?
09:18:08 <AnMaster> coppro, you would have to forward such info to the client I suspect
09:18:35 <coppro> any info that the proxy doesn't need to handle is forwarded directly
09:18:51 <AnMaster> have you ever tried a non-xinerama build of firefox on a dual head X server (using nvidia twinview, not multiple screens)?
09:19:00 <AnMaster> I had menus appear on the wrong screen
09:19:10 <AnMaster> like file menu showed up on the other monitor from the application window
09:19:46 <AnMaster> coppro, rebuilding with xinerama support fixed it
09:20:19 <coppro> the proxy would retrieve any screen/display/xinerama/whatever info upon connecting to a server, and inform the client about the changes. Anything beyond that is handled by the communication directly between the server and client
09:20:41 <AnMaster> coppro, there are some extensions that could cause issues still
09:20:54 <coppro> yes, well, those could be handled on a case-by-case
09:21:01 <AnMaster> what would you do if client used xrandr for example?
09:21:14 <coppro> forward directly to the server, do not pass go, do not collect $200
09:21:21 <AnMaster> coppro, "X RandR is used to configure which display ports are enabled (e.g. LCD, VGA and DVI), and to configure display modes and properties such as orientation, reflection and DPI."
09:22:03 <coppro> I don't see how it's an issue. The goal is to make the client act as if it's connected the target server, except that the target server might randomly change.
09:23:02 <coppro> and if it does, the proxy needs to handle any aspect of that change so that the client, other than possibly noticing a radical change in geometry, can proceed normally
09:23:02 <AnMaster> coppro, yes and that is the issue. You would have to notify it about xrandr changes and such to reset the client's state when you change the "host" server
09:23:09 <coppro> yes, I just explained that
09:23:25 <AnMaster> coppro, and what with all the X11 extensions that could be quite a messy task
09:23:26 <coppro> all geometry info is retrieved when connecting to a new server; clients are informed of the changes
09:23:35 <coppro> after that, geometry communication is server-client
09:24:11 <coppro> if a server is disconnected, nothing happens until a new one is connected, so it's like the application was just left idle normally
09:24:41 <coppro> the tricky thing is handling any persistence info, like window IDs
09:24:46 <coppro> or resources or something
09:25:06 <coppro> the proxy needs to create a virtual set of them that the client sees
09:25:31 <coppro> and reestablish them upon connecting
09:26:43 <AnMaster> coppro, what is the app grabs the mouse and hides the pointer
09:26:50 <AnMaster> will that be auto restored on reconnection?
09:27:13 <coppro> Not at first, for sure
09:27:20 <AnMaster> coppro, that could confuse the app
09:28:08 <coppro> AnMaster: I've seen it happen with badly-written applications before. The result is an immovable default cursor in the default position; the game's cursor works fine
09:28:43 <coppro> (this occurred when using Debian's virtual terminals to switch away from X and back to it)
09:29:37 <AnMaster> you know that is a linux feature, not specific to debain
09:29:37 <coppro> I don't know if other distros have it; I know Debian does
09:29:45 <coppro> wasn't sure on that one
09:29:53 <coppro> I could also imagine a situation where the default cursor is mobile, but the game is still tracking its own cursor. It would also be weird
09:30:02 <AnMaster> coppro, they would have had to patch to kernel for it ;P
09:30:15 <coppro> AnMaster: I wouldn't put them past it.
09:30:58 <coppro> anyways, I think I'd just see what events X normally passes if it loses screen control like that and replicate them upon a reconnection
09:32:04 <coppro> and then let badly-written applications eat cake.
09:32:25 <coppro> hmm... what should this be called... Also, Erlang.
09:32:46 <AnMaster> coppro, what? X11 protocol in erlang?
09:33:04 <coppro> Erlang's the obvious candidate for this!
09:34:06 <AnMaster> coppro, I would have said that C was
09:34:20 <coppro> for managing tons of connections simultaneously? no thanks
09:34:22 <AnMaster> since then you can use X11 header files for stuff
09:34:44 <AnMaster> coppro, you mean multiple apps per "bouncer"?
09:34:55 <coppro> AnMaster: Yes, it would be a full server
09:35:10 <AnMaster> there is dtach which is like screen but with most features except deattaching and reattaching removed
09:35:27 <coppro> yeah, sounds about right
09:35:37 <AnMaster> coppro, but I can't pronounce xdtach
09:36:33 <AnMaster> http://dtach.sourceforge.net/ <-- strangely enough this is not a project from the authors of dwm and slock (as far as I know). It would fit right into that category though
09:37:34 <coppro> ideally you could even run a DM through it, but that's another can of worms
09:37:42 <AnMaster> coppro, can't do XD-tach. XD(TM)(R) memory cards(TM)(R)
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09:38:12 <AnMaster> coppro, oh yeah... how do you handle dbus?
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09:38:20 <AnMaster> coppro, a lot of apps these days use dbus
09:38:35 <AnMaster> coppro, a lot of those wouldn't work correctly then
09:38:51 <AnMaster> coppro, anything like gtk or qt apps would be a pain
09:39:11 <AnMaster> sure, simple motif apps or such, no problem I bet
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09:39:54 <coppro> You'd probably need a similar daemon that would do the same with dbus
09:40:17 <AnMaster> hm how does dbus interact with ssh X11 forwarding?
09:40:51 <AnMaster> coppro, so it might not be required
09:41:11 <coppro> or you could just run it locally and hope that keeping it disconnected from the target machine wouldn't explode things
09:41:24 <coppro> actually, no, you musn't actually need it
09:41:39 <coppro> or at least run it connected
09:41:56 <coppro> think of a non-ssh network X connection
09:42:02 <coppro> you could be connecting to /anything/
09:42:10 <coppro> including a Windows machine
09:42:40 <AnMaster> coppro, still what about interacting with window manager
09:43:05 <AnMaster> coppro, I suspect it might be problematic if you switch from a host with, say, metacity to one with kwin
09:43:15 <AnMaster> or even worse, from a "normal" one to a tiling WM
09:43:24 <AnMaster> in fact, tiling WMs open up a new can of worms
09:43:27 <coppro> AnMaster: Not much different than replacing a running WM
09:44:22 <AnMaster> coppro, that can cause buggy behaviour in my experience
09:44:36 <coppro> in fact, it would be slightly easier
09:44:45 <AnMaster> coppro, also, I can't imagine how replacing a non-tiling one with a tiling vm would work well
09:44:51 <coppro> since a reconnection would involve the proxy opening up a new set of windows
09:45:28 <AnMaster> coppro, in a tiling wm it might be problematic to allocate the correct window sizes
09:45:40 <coppro> that's the wm's problem
09:46:06 <AnMaster> pretty sure the X standard suggests it is the problem of the client to fit into the space given by the wm :P
09:46:36 <coppro> it is the client's problem to do that
09:46:50 <AnMaster> well you said "<coppro> that's the wm's problem"
09:47:03 <coppro> you said "allocate the correct window sizes" which is the wm's problem
09:47:10 <coppro> it is the client's problem to fit in them
09:47:17 <AnMaster> coppro, it might give you a smaller size back
09:47:48 <coppro> the proxy could help by forcibly resizing the window down
09:48:02 <coppro> after that, it's the client's call
09:48:12 <coppro> the window stuff will be the toughest
09:48:19 <coppro> and I don't use a tiling WM, which is also important
09:48:52 <coppro> plus, if this is as ridiculously useful as it seems like it would be, it will become and instant it, I will receive song and praise and volunteer developers
09:49:37 <AnMaster> coppro, you think there are enough people interested who know erlang
09:49:57 <AnMaster> coppro, also using erlang more or less makes opengl impossible
09:50:21 <AnMaster> you need very high performance for it probably.
09:50:36 <AnMaster> iirc you need to use shm to get reasonable speed
09:50:55 <AnMaster> sure you think about network but most people would probably like to use it locally
09:51:28 <coppro> HIPE if necessary. Shm is a serious cluster if you detach from a local server and move to a remote one.
09:52:23 <AnMaster> coppro, also the thing could use shm against the clients, and non-shm "upstream"
09:52:43 <coppro> yeah, I realize both of those things.
09:52:59 <AnMaster> plus I'm not sure how stable it is. As in, clients being supposed to use the stable APIs of libx11 (or more recently, libxcb iirc)
09:53:17 <AnMaster> how well defined is the actual protocol
09:54:00 <coppro> X is pretty well-defined
09:54:08 <coppro> I've read the spec before
09:54:44 <coppro> and it's got to be stable or else servers which implement the protocol directly would break
09:55:21 <yiyus> i don't see why tiling wms would be a problem, if a client request a fixed size is usually handled as "floating", else it will only see a resize request
09:57:20 <yiyus> at least that is how dwm and wmii work, and afaik most of tiling wms are based on them
09:58:24 <coppro> The X core protocol hasn't changed in 5 years, and then probably not by much
10:08:33 <AnMaster> will still be a very complex task
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10:50:02 * Leonidas stumbled over this code http://okmij.org/ftp/Prolog/QueensProblem.prl
10:50:24 <Leonidas> while not that much esoteric, would anyone explain to me how permute works?
10:50:40 * Leonidas is trying to translate that into a more esoteric language
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11:36:53 <AnMaster> so dbus crashed, then gnome-settings-daemon
11:37:02 <AnMaster> now everything looks strange even after restarting those
11:37:17 <AnMaster> oh and: [251808.083600] gnome-settings-[1841]: segfault at 8 ip 00007fab28a5ad12 sp 00007fff642dfcb0 error 4 in libclipboard.so[7fab28a58000+5000]
11:37:31 <AnMaster> how? well I just closed kate....
11:37:38 <AnMaster> not sure what kate has to do with gnome at all
11:37:57 <AnMaster> also second time it happened, last time the computer was idle when it happened
11:38:14 <AnMaster> and it is not easy to reproduce on demand
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11:43:00 <gm|lap> next time you see cpressey, can you tell him that it's possible to get >5 keys in bubble escape 2K, and that, if you do that, you can't win?
11:43:55 <AnMaster> gm|lap, haven't seen cpressy for a long time
11:44:22 <AnMaster> gm|lap, and what on earth is bubble escape 2K?
11:44:33 <gm|lap> AnMaster: a game he wrote for the C64
11:44:46 <gm|lap> of course, i don't have a C64 so i just use VICE
11:46:45 * AnMaster tries to imagine a language for which qwerty is actually an efficient layout
11:47:58 <AnMaster> meh, I don't know enough about how to make efficient layouts to figure that out
11:48:14 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Topline IIRC
11:48:48 <ais523> even so, though, you'd probably need 6 fingers on each hand
11:48:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I meant natural language
11:49:03 <ais523> and it doesn't really care about the letter keys, just the punctuation marks
11:49:19 <ais523> AnMaster: then you probably asked in the wrong channel
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11:51:57 <ais523> [11:50] <ais523> hmm, a problem I'm working on at University is basically an esolang issue
11:51:58 <ais523> [11:50] [CTCP] Sending CTCP-PING request to ais523.
11:52:00 <ais523> [11:50] <ais523> OTOH, I'd probably get in trouble if I asked here for the answer
11:52:01 <ais523> [11:50] <ais523> so I'll try to solve it first and then tell everyone what it is
11:56:40 <ais523> meh, I'm bored and slightly mad, I'm going to update Ubuntu to a new distro version unless someone stops me to tell me it's a really bad idea
11:57:07 <ais523> let's see if it fixes that intermittent problem with sound that I could never reliably reproduce
12:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> If you install it Satan will jump through your monitor and eat your soul!
12:03:52 <gm|lap> fredfredfredfredfesdfresdresdfredfredfredfredfredred
12:03:58 <gm|lap> and i'm going to bed, gnight
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12:08:12 <ais523> this computer's a laptop, though
12:08:16 <ais523> so technically doesn't have a monitor
12:08:30 <ais523> also, I don't believe you
12:11:26 <ais523> if your soul has been eaten, why are you still talking here?
12:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> If it does anything less than teleportation I will be sorely disappointed.
12:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone else zoom in on that and tell me if it looks like a glider?
12:56:22 <ais523> it's only three pixels with a bit of antialiasing, hard to tell /what/ it looks like
13:08:41 <AnMaster> <ais523> [11:50] <ais523> so I'll try to solve it first and then tell everyone what it is <-- figured it out yet?
13:08:55 <ais523> in the middle of a distro upgrade atm
13:11:02 <AnMaster> which esolang? or is it general computation theory stuff or such?
13:12:12 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> ¸ <-- isn't it a . ?
13:12:37 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, Raymond has commandeered it for himself. <-- ?
13:13:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, eh, that is in unicode?
13:13:26 <AnMaster> also, it looks like two pixels with antialias here
13:13:40 <AnMaster> just look up the unicode codepoint from that char
13:24:08 <ais523> AnMaster: if you want a bit of fun, https://review.source.android.com/#patch,sidebyside,14699,1,libc/memset.c
13:24:14 <ais523> it's the sort of diff I thought you would like
13:24:17 <ais523> although it requires JS to read
13:24:31 <ais523> sort-of worrying that that wasn't caught earlier...
13:25:57 <ais523> also, says a lot about how memset's used in practice
13:26:15 <AnMaster> ais523, android has it's own libc?
13:26:27 <ais523> it has its own pretty much everything
13:26:39 <ais523> it's Linux, but it isn't any of the things that are commonly bundled with Linux
13:26:41 <AnMaster> ais523, also strange it doesn't use something more efficient, considering embedded system and so on
13:26:50 <ais523> it's not /that/ embedded
13:27:10 <ais523> <petdance> Why are they even doing that as a loop? They should just be calling memset().
13:27:50 <ais523> not clear from context
13:27:56 <ais523> although I'm guessing serious
13:29:42 <ais523> it's sort of like the source-code to libgcc
13:29:52 <ais523> which defines the implementations of, say, multiplication
13:29:55 <ais523> on systems that don't do it natively
13:30:15 <ais523> it must be a real pain to try to write an efficient multiplication routine in C without accidentally defining it in terms of itself
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13:50:21 <ais523> well, fixed it, but it was broken for ages
13:50:25 <ais523> set to 0 rather than to the argument
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13:50:36 <ais523> hmm, apparently IE4 could be scripted using Haskell
13:53:54 <ais523> yes, Internet Explorer
13:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun thing: When I typed "internet explorer has" into Google for that, the suggestions was "internet explorer has stopped working".
13:54:10 <ais523> IE[0-9]+ seems to be an abbreviation reserved for Internet Explorer nowadays
13:54:15 <ais523> try the same thing with Bing
13:55:06 <ais523> what does Bing say? the same?
13:55:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so can a von Neumann CA be represented as a non-planar graph?
13:55:16 <ais523> Bing was infamous for its autocompletions on "linux"
13:55:22 <ais523> which included "linux microsoft" and "linux windows"
13:55:36 <oerjan> the neighborhood graph for von Neumann CAs is planar
13:56:19 <oerjan> take a cell, draw a line to all four neighboring cells
13:57:06 <oerjan> doing that for all cells gives no crossing lines
13:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523: Try putting "Windows has" into Bin for a laugh.
13:57:34 <ais523> I'd need to remove several layers of browser lockdown to use Bing correctly
13:58:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: in that case, i suspect you've switched the definition of moore and von neumann neighborhoods
13:59:19 <oerjan> right, planar means no crossed lines, essentially
13:59:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: in Bing's case, mostly against non-static content
13:59:35 <ais523> I wouldn't get suggestions, just a textbox
13:59:44 <ais523> in fact, I'm not even convinced I get the background image, I haven't used it in a while
14:00:03 <ais523> yep, it's just really busy and grey
14:00:29 <ais523> and I get no suggestions
14:00:38 <ais523> which is my standard query for testing search engines
14:01:25 <ais523> hmm, results better than they used to be, about as good as Google's and worse than Wikia's used to be
14:02:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they just hosted innumerable pop-culture wikis.
14:04:39 <ais523> due to lack of funding
14:04:46 <ais523> it was pretty good while it was there, though
14:05:14 <ais523> in the sense of "provided good results that were different from Google's"
14:05:38 <ais523> maybe slightly worse than Google's on average, but being different was good as it let you find different pages
14:06:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> it must be a real pain to try to write an efficient multiplication routine in C without accidentally defining it in terms of itself <-- that is why it iirc uses a lot of inline asm versions for various arches
14:07:06 <ais523> actually, it isn't even inline asm
14:07:13 <ais523> it goes in the .md file, in sections reserved for writing asm
14:07:26 <ais523> so it's asm, but not "inline"
14:07:34 <ais523> the .md file's /meant/ to contain the asm
14:07:44 <ais523> because otherwise, htf could it know what asm instructions to output?
14:07:50 <AnMaster> ais523, but isn't that for defining codegen?
14:07:56 <AnMaster> rather than for writing libgcc
14:08:15 <ais523> it would be inline asm in libgcc if you wanted it to be an actual function
14:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Idea for an esolang: you specify a fitness metric, then the interpreter/compiler evolves a neural network according to it.
14:08:24 <ais523> but for things like multiplication, if it's short enough you probably want to inline it
14:08:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and then libgcc isn't involved at all afaik
14:09:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well I thought libgcc was the context: "<ais523> it's sort of like the source-code to libgcc"
14:09:03 <ais523> nothing either of us said in the conversation leading from that conversation implied libgcc was involved
14:09:10 <ais523> AnMaster: that was the context of a /different/ conversation
14:09:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well I was log reading
14:09:23 <ais523> just quoting a line from an old conversation doesn't necessarily drag in all its context
14:09:25 <AnMaster> as you could see from me quoting part of it
14:09:41 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: evfunge, but the internet's short on details concerning it
14:09:53 <ais523> it would be pretty interesting to find a copy of the code involved, or its output
14:12:11 <AnMaster> ais523, why would you use bing anyway?
14:12:31 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure
14:12:44 <ais523> amusement value, possibly
14:12:52 <ais523> or because you like pretty backgrounds
14:12:58 <AnMaster> I wonder when they will rename it next
14:13:00 <ais523> or because it's your default search engine and you don't know how to change
14:13:11 <ais523> win7 actually has a bing search widget on the start toolbar
14:13:35 <ais523> probably not by default, but I've seen installs that do
14:13:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> or because it's your default search engine and you don't know how to change <-- hm but doesn't IE ask about that during first run?
14:13:59 <AnMaster> "want to get more search engines" or such
14:14:08 <ais523> possibly, but people are trained to click Cancel
14:14:15 <ais523> or really, any button at random
14:14:34 <ais523> that's one of the things that makes Windows tech support so hard
14:14:44 <ais523> people dismiss dialog boxes out of habit, rather than reading them
14:15:10 <ais523> also, it's why Firefox greys out the "OK" button for three seconds on the "do you want to run/install this" confirmation screens
14:15:46 <ais523> on Linux, it's pretty rare that a dialog box comes up that isn't a) important, or b) asking for information needed to do what the user just asked it to do
14:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I *hate* it when people type "google.com" into their address bar.
14:15:51 <ais523> which is a blessing, really
14:16:03 <AnMaster> ais523, now, firefox's "sure you want to continue with invalid ssl cert" is certainly hard to just get through by random clicks
14:16:22 <ais523> I love the way it has two buttons which are both "cancel", and the get-past isn't a button at all
14:16:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, do they? Depends on browser
14:16:43 <ais523> AnMaster: w3m doesn't have an address bar either, though
14:16:49 <ais523> you can type U for a prompt for address
14:16:51 <ais523> but that isn't quite the same
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14:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, but iirc w3m-mode does
14:17:21 <ais523> AnMaster: I think there's one button that takes you to homepage, and another that explains why the site was blocked
14:17:28 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what the best way to check is
14:17:34 <ais523> is there a "test malicious page" for Firefox?
14:18:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I know some urls at my university with broken and/or self signed ssl certs
14:18:10 <ais523> sort-of like that test file which is not malicious, but is flagged as a virus by all antivirus software
14:18:14 <AnMaster> but since you filter urls anwyay
14:18:16 <ais523> due to existing as a test for antivirus software
14:18:24 <ais523> yep, I'll try to find one myself
14:18:30 <ais523> self-signed certs can be easy enough to find
14:18:43 <ais523> heh, I even have some self-signed files on my local computer
14:18:51 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I don't know if they fixed it. They seem to break it in different ways every now and then
14:19:09 <ais523> strange, mozilla.com's taking ages to load
14:19:12 <AnMaster> and randomly fixing it for a short period
14:20:06 <ais523> well, it's doing something, it's redirected once already
14:20:09 <ais523> but it's taken over a minute
14:20:10 <AnMaster> but considering the length of the traceroute... I'm not surpirsed
14:20:42 <AnMaster> took about 20 seconds to load here
14:20:43 <ais523> but unless mozilla.com was on a massively slow nextwork, you can easily do 21 hops in a minute
14:21:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also slow in what sense
14:21:23 <ais523> not sure if it's latency or throughput
14:21:29 <ais523> the headers seem to have arrived, though
14:21:33 <ais523> so I'm guessing it's throughput
14:21:43 <ais523> as in, the <title> has shown up, but the rest of the page hasn't
14:21:51 <AnMaster> ais523, could be packet loss, try ping?
14:22:09 <ais523> can't, I'm on a network that filters ICMP
14:22:23 <ais523> traceroutes only go about 3 hops before hitting a firewall
14:22:29 <ais523> it's strange, as it doesn't seem to filter anything else
14:22:39 <ais523> apart from possibly port 25
14:22:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what about non-PING ICMPs?
14:23:10 <AnMaster> like, destination unreachable or whatever
14:23:12 <ais523> not sure even how to generate those
14:23:25 <ais523> presumably it doesn't filter destination unreachable /replies/
14:23:38 <ais523> but if I send a destination unreachable into the internet as a whole, the recipient will wonder wtf is going on
14:23:52 <ais523> assuming they don't just discard it
14:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, "internet as a whole"? 255.255.255.255?!
14:24:11 <AnMaster> well that won't get far I can tell youy
14:24:15 <ais523> except that all sane routers refuse to respect the defined semantics of such an address
14:24:51 <ais523> I still like the concept of having an IP address that means "the entire internet", even if you can't actually use it in practice
14:25:16 <ais523> hmm, stopped loading and tried again, it loaded in less than three seconds
14:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, few broadcasts tend to get past any routers iirc
14:25:45 <AnMaster> mostly it only works on the same network segment or whatever the name is
14:29:15 <ais523> IIRC, the default for stealing variables in CLC-INTERCAL is to broadcast to the whole Internet in the hope of finding some other running INTERCAL program to steal from
14:29:22 <ais523> which makes the whole thing rather like Network Headache
14:29:30 <ais523> although ofc you can specify which IP address to steal from
14:29:42 <ais523> running multiple INTERCAL programs on the same address is an exercise for the reader
14:29:46 <ais523> although not really an insurmountable one
14:29:56 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't remember the format
14:30:04 <ais523> probably as one twospot
14:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, so you can't change the port btw?
14:30:13 <ais523> and the port's specified in a config file
14:30:29 <AnMaster> ais523, well then you can use that to run more than one, no?
14:30:47 <AnMaster> ais523, or can't it have different local and remote port?
14:30:56 <ais523> you could just have a variable with a program identifier in
14:31:00 <ais523> leave it permanently ignored
14:31:08 <ais523> and just smuggle it to see if you're stealing from the right program
14:31:23 <AnMaster> ais523, another alternative: 127.0.0.2 and so on
14:31:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you can configure which IP to bind on
14:31:47 <ais523> that's specified in the program
14:32:00 <ais523> btw, I know the whole of 127/8 is supposed to have the same semantics
14:32:08 <ais523> but in practice, doesn't it often work only for 127.0.0.1?
14:32:44 <AnMaster> I think for windows it is so, and it used to work for other ones in older versions
14:33:18 <AnMaster> under linux it should work for the whole block
14:33:27 <AnMaster> unless your distro does it in a silly way
14:33:49 <AnMaster> inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0
14:33:50 <AnMaster> inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
14:34:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why not? If it can somehow grow it's state that is.
14:34:28 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: only if infinitely large, or has infinite state some other wa
14:34:28 <AnMaster> not that I'm any expert on how neural networks work
14:34:40 <ais523> apart from that, I don't see why it would fail to meet any of the other neural network requirements
14:34:51 <AnMaster> ais523, so just add ability to grow at runtime
14:35:05 <ais523> AnMaster: typical neural networks in computing are incapable of growing
14:35:28 <AnMaster> ais523, sure, but why not add that feature? Then you could add computer cancers to computer viruses in the future ;P
14:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You can make a function that takes a neural net and evaluates its fitness, then evolve accordingly.
14:35:40 <ais523> fwiw, even human brains stop growing new neurons after a while, although they keep making new connections
14:36:15 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc new ones grow but very slowly? Pretty sure I saw some relatively recent research result mentioned about that somewhere
14:36:19 <ais523> hmm, I'm glad that ::1/128 is the only address that's loopback in ipv6
14:36:23 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm, interesting
14:37:16 <AnMaster> ais523, a bit hazy on the details. But iirc after some certain age it was very very slow, so for "practical purposes" it was "stopped", but not completely
14:37:25 <ais523> hmm, distro update's now at the stage where Firefox breaks at random
14:37:34 <ais523> out of all the programs I use, it's the one that least likes being used while being upgraded
14:37:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I seem to have a /64...
14:37:44 <AnMaster> that is larger than ipv4 right?
14:38:00 <AnMaster> that is assigned to my ipv6 tunnel
14:38:10 <AnMaster> which is when you think about it, quite absurd
14:40:37 <ais523> it's actually over 4 billion times as large
14:40:49 <AnMaster> ais523, twice as many bits though
14:41:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't imagine what I need this for. It isn't even as if I got ipv6 tunnel sharing to the rest of the LAN to work...
14:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> They made a format, decided it was too small, then made one so ridiculously huge there's more space than you could possible need.
14:41:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the idea's that you have enough to do for anything you might want to do
14:42:08 <ais523> say, why not give every program running on your computer its own public IP?
14:42:23 <ais523> that doesn't strike me as an insane thing to want to do
14:42:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I would need 172 ips currently for that
14:42:45 <AnMaster> but that includes kernel tasks
14:42:59 <ais523> why use dbus when you can use tcp?
14:43:09 <ais523> well, tcp/ip as a whole
14:43:17 <AnMaster> can't imagine what use giving [md2_raid1] it's own ip would be
14:43:52 <ais523> why send signals when you can send ICMP packets?
14:44:53 <AnMaster> ais523, because sending custom ICMP needs root
14:45:03 <AnMaster> ais523, why else did you think ping was suid root?
14:45:08 <ais523> obviously this would be in a hypothetical future OS
14:45:27 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no clear mapping of SIGTERM and so on
14:45:33 <ais523> besides, even with something like Linux, you could just change the rules so that pinging things in the same process group didn't need root
14:45:47 <AnMaster> why would you want to expose it outwards
14:45:59 <ais523> you don't, you firewall it
14:46:05 <ais523> but you still have it there for uniqueness
14:46:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well what if you make a small error in the firewall config
14:46:25 <AnMaster> what with netfilter/iptables being basically mad
14:46:26 <ais523> maybe, if you're doing remote procedure calls or whatever, you could open up a gap in the firewall to send signals back and forth between apps
14:46:39 <AnMaster> ais523, dumbed down last I looked
14:47:18 <ais523> the advanced syntax thing works well enough for all the firewalling I need
14:47:28 <ais523> although IIRC I don't actually have any ports open at all for any reason atm
14:48:51 <ais523> Status: active \ Logging: on (low) \ Default: deny (incoming), allow (outgoing)
14:49:45 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe it got better since I last looked at it
14:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I wanted to do rate limiting on new connections to port 22 and couldn't figure out how to. With iptables it was messy but possible
14:50:45 <ais523> ok, your firewall desires are a lot weirder than mine
14:51:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you use "the advanced syntax thing" for?
14:51:24 <ais523> specifying which IPs were allowed to connect
14:51:32 <ais523> when I open a port, I normally open it only to one other computer
14:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and of course I want to log strange packets, like those produced by nmap xmas scan
14:52:04 <ais523> AnMaster: ufw limit 22/tcp
14:52:13 <AnMaster> LOG tcp -- anywhere anywhere tcp flags:FIN,SYN,RST,PSH,ACK,URG/FIN,SYN,RST,PSH,ACK,URG limit: avg 5/min burst 5 LOG level alert prefix `XMAS:'
14:52:36 <AnMaster> (it also drops it after it logs it)
14:52:37 <ais523> on the other hand, ufw doesn't seem to have options to specify what sort of rate-limiting you want
14:52:39 <ais523> just whether you want it or not
14:52:49 <AnMaster> and yes that is rate limited to not flood the log
14:53:31 <ais523> hmm, are those the packets with every single option turned on simultaneously?
14:53:38 <ais523> I always wondered why you'd want to do that
14:53:41 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is what the xmas scan is
14:53:52 <AnMaster> there are some other ones to log as well
14:54:25 <ais523> hmm, so why /do/ people send such packets?
14:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, man nmap? Because for some OSes it fucks up system/reveals which OS it is/something else
14:55:00 <AnMaster> iirc that is the common reason
14:55:20 <ais523> I don't have nmap installed, and I'd get in trouble if I tried to
14:56:03 <AnMaster> ais523, huh? is this not your netbook?
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14:56:32 <ais523> yes, but it's connected to a university network atm
14:56:52 <AnMaster> "The key advantage to these scan types is that they can sneak through certain non-stateful firewalls and packet filtering routers."
14:57:12 <AnMaster> that is from the section: "-sN; -sF; -sX (TCP NULL, FIN, and Xmas scans)"
14:57:17 <ais523> computer security is so weird
14:59:08 <AnMaster> what on earth is that front loader out there doing
15:01:14 <AnMaster> hm no idea. just driving back and forth a few meters, not doing anything in specific
15:19:26 <Ilari> Heh... Years ago I had firewall rules that dropped all packet flag combos that "should not happen"...
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15:25:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, mine functions more as a simple IDS in that it looks at some specific well known weird ones.
15:25:39 <AnMaster> anyway my point was that ufw is very limited
15:27:19 <Ilari> I think the valid combos are SYN, SYN+ACK, SYN+ACK+PSH, ACK, ACK+PSH, ACK+URG, ACK+URG+PSH, RST, FIN and FIN+ACK (and maybe some others).
15:28:00 <ais523> what does SYN+ACK mean?
15:28:12 <ais523> wouldn't the SYN and ACK need different sequence numbers unless you were very lucky?
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15:28:32 <Ilari> IIRC, it is used to signal connection accepted.
15:29:16 <AnMaster> it is one of the first ones exchanged during a new connection
15:29:39 <AnMaster> forgot if it was SYN → SYN,ACK → ACK or SYN → ACK → SYN,ACK
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15:30:21 <Ilari> Ah, SYN+ACK+PSH isn't valid (because second packet is not allowed to have payload and PSH impiles payload).
15:31:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about SYN ACK URG?
15:31:21 <Ilari> So SYN+ACK?, ACK+PSH?+URG?, RST and FIN+ACK?
15:31:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, can't RST be combined with anything?
15:31:58 <Ilari> I don't think it can...
15:33:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, according to wikipedia there are more flags
15:33:25 <Ilari> Yes, I ignore them here. They are used by congestion control.
15:34:43 * AnMaster forgot how much changed between ipv4 and ipv6 TCP
15:35:15 <AnMaster> ah yes, quite a different header format it seems like
15:37:23 <Ilari> Eh, do tcp4 and tcp6 have very different header formats?
15:40:05 <Ilari> TCP(v4?) header includes: Source port (16 bits), Destination port (16 bits), Sequence number (32 bits), Acknowledgement number (32 bits), data offset (4 bits), flags (8 bits), window (16 bits), checksum (16 bits), urgent pointer (16 bits), options (variable) and padding (variable).
15:41:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, didn't you miss packet length there?
15:41:20 * Phantom_Hoover notes that there seem to be no good neural network libraries for Common Lisp
15:41:22 <AnMaster> because that is what is wider. Also ipv6 seems to have a "next header" field
15:41:38 <Ilari> TCP header does not have packet length. IP header does.
15:41:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, ah that explains this. It is a combined view of both ip and tcp headers
15:43:03 <Ilari> IPv6 next header is equivalent to IPv4 protocol field.
15:46:30 <Ilari> Ah, its also used for options.
15:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I'll have to bolt a Lisp interface onto a C library, then...
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15:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, so I decided the easiest way to do it would just be to make the source a CL function which takes a neural net and evaluates its fitness.
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16:05:54 <pineapple> i think it's supposed to encourage good programming practices
16:05:58 <ais523> if you mark something private, you can then safely change it from then on
16:06:01 <ais523> without breaking existing code
16:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's purely to make sure you don't do something stupid?
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16:11:35 <Deewiant> And in libraries, that users don't do anything stupid
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16:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I went off it for a while when I couldn't get any interesting libraries to compile.
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16:16:44 <AnMaster> anyone know a command line tool to prepend a line number to every line
16:16:53 <AnMaster> as in foo | add_line_numbers | bar
16:18:03 <ais523_> hmm, upgrade mostly seems to have worked
16:18:04 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
16:18:23 <ais523> although Konversation is currently interpreting "you have been made channel admin" as "you have been banned"
16:18:30 <ais523> which is a rather great misinterpretation
16:32:47 <AnMaster> also I have a cat here that doesn't know cat -n
16:33:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, freebsd cat seems to know cat -n
16:33:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one that didn't was from an old openbsd install
16:55:55 <ais523> heh, Reddit noticed Ursala
16:56:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't notice it was a pun
16:56:42 <ais523> and still don't get it even after you've pointed it out
16:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a play on "cat", the animal, the collective noun for which is "clowder", and "cat", the UNIX utility, of which there are many variants, but for which there is no commonly-accepted collective noun.
16:59:56 <ais523> I've never heard that collective noun used for the animals before
17:00:11 <ais523> "herd" would make a good one, though, after the well-known simile
17:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> So perhaps the simile should be "like clowdering cats".
17:03:38 * ais523 puts the window max/min/close buttons back where they were before, then puts the window menu back
17:04:07 <ais523> a) the placement's arbitrary anyway so I may as well have them where I'm used to, b) I'm used to being able to close a window from /both/ top corners
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17:04:24 <ais523> and you can't with Ubuntu's new layout
17:06:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> heh, Reddit noticed Ursala <--- ?
17:06:19 <ais523> no, the programming language
17:06:29 <ais523> which should be considered ontopic here despite not being deliberately an esolang
17:06:54 <ais523> http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/
17:07:51 <ais523> <Deestan> Another important design goal of Ursala was to discourage "code obfuscation" techniques. This can be done elegantly by making sure that all syntactically valid programs are no more readable than their obfuscated counterparts.
17:08:02 <ais523> reddit criticism can be so scathing sometimes
17:12:22 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't much worse than J
17:12:40 <ais523> there are some interesting ideas in there
17:12:53 <ais523> but they're buried under the mess of &pseudopointers~
17:14:06 <ais523> have you seen the virtual machine it compiles to?
17:14:41 <AnMaster> only looked at some of the examples on there
17:14:58 <ais523> beh, reading about the language itself is much more fun than the examples, which don't make much sense in the abstract
17:16:22 <AnMaster> ais523, "Programs that read this format should be as lenient as possible, accepting anything that looks remotely like a PGM. "
17:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, it is discussing the ASCII variant of the file format
17:16:48 <ais523> what's that format for?
17:16:55 <AnMaster> ais523, PGM is an image format
17:17:08 <AnMaster> "pgm - Netpbm grayscale image format "
17:17:24 * AnMaster was messing with this to generate a map of bad pixels for his camera
17:17:44 <AnMaster> the ASCII format is rather easy to parse
17:18:49 <AnMaster> and gimps saves it as one pixel per line. So I can just use curves to hide everything but the hot pixels, save as ASCII pgm, then do: nl curve_hide.pgm | grep -Ev $'\t0$' > foo.txt
17:19:03 <AnMaster> and then remove some of the meta data at the start
17:19:44 <AnMaster> and then the x values can be fetched as (linenumber - 5) % image_with (or integer division for y coord)
17:19:55 <AnMaster> -5 is to compensate for a few lines of meta data
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17:21:46 <AnMaster> ais523, is that ursala open source?
17:21:53 <ais523> well, the main interp of it is
17:22:01 <ais523> I don't know if a programming language can be inherently open source
17:22:13 <AnMaster> and what did you say was the issue with it?
17:22:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I was discussing the implementation there
17:22:40 <ais523> AnMaster: read the docs, the concept is too complicated to easily describe in less than a few pages, but I'll try
17:22:58 <ais523> in Ursala's VM, everything is written as just lists
17:23:05 <ais523> which can only contain other lists (and can be empty)
17:23:09 <ais523> so all data structures work like that
17:23:20 <ais523> now, you can create a sort of "pointer", like "head of tail of tail of head"
17:23:27 <ais523> to access a particular location in a data structure
17:23:53 <ais523> imagine that you have more complicated pointers like "both the first and second element of a pair"; that contradicts what I just said, but it's possible in Ursala too
17:24:05 <ais523> and it has a crazy syntax for stringing these things together to make complicated accessors
17:24:17 <ais523> that looks like a load of letters between & and ~, normally
17:24:29 <ais523> now, imagine you have something that is completely different from everything I just said
17:24:33 <ais523> but it's shoehorned into the same syntax
17:24:36 <ais523> that's a pseudopointer
17:24:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> which can only contain other lists (and can be empty) <-- hm reminds me of lambda calculus in a remote kind of way.
17:24:51 <AnMaster> (not lists there, but everything is functions kind of)
17:25:06 <ais523> yes, the basic concept is not incredibly insane
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17:25:14 <ais523> there are quite a few interesting thoughts behind the language
17:25:16 <AnMaster> ais523, for being efficient it probably is
17:25:19 <ais523> just enough insane ones that the result is mad
17:25:32 <AnMaster> ais523, also to quote the feature page:
17:25:35 <AnMaster> "Exact calculations involving integers and rationals are implemented by purpose written libraries packaged with the compiler. Standard floating point and complex numbers are manipulated natively using the host system's C library routines. Arbitrary precision floating point numbers are handled by the mpfr library, but without need of explicit storage allocation or reclamation at the source level."
17:25:44 <AnMaster> then how does it do the floating point
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17:26:06 <AnMaster> I mean, does it store it as some combination of lists or such
17:26:15 <ais523> if you try to look at a floating-point number's representation on the fly, it'll decompose it into lists for you
17:26:28 <ais523> and presumably vice versa, if you try to use a list as a floating-point number
17:26:31 <AnMaster> ais523, but what is it actually represented as in the VM?
17:26:45 <ais523> I don't know the list representation of a floating-point number off by heart
17:26:50 <ais523> I am not an expert in Ursala
17:26:56 <ais523> just someone who managed to get almost halfway through the docs
17:27:04 <ais523> which probably means I know more about it than almost anyone else
17:27:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> now, you can create a sort of "pointer", like "head of tail of tail of head" <-- caddar ?
17:27:23 <ais523> yes, actually the idea behind the syntax is the same
17:27:47 <ais523> but Lisp caddadadadar sorts of things don't have things like operator precedence and binary operators
17:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, on the other hand caddar kind of stuff reads backwards (IMO)
17:28:22 <AnMaster> pointers having operator precedence?
17:28:55 <AnMaster> however, such a concept does sound interesting
17:29:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ok, more fun: instead of (abc), it uses the notation abc3
17:29:34 <AnMaster> ais523, is this the VM or the language?
17:29:35 <ais523> you don't use parens, you use numbers saying how many things to parenthesise
17:29:46 <ais523> oh, and you use P rather than 2
17:29:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and postfix notation for it?
17:29:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an effectively-postfix notation
17:30:05 <ais523> this is all just the pseudopointers
17:30:12 <ais523> the language has another entirely separate notation for other things
17:30:27 <AnMaster> ais523, what happens if you use a 2 instead of a P?
17:30:49 <ais523> you think I'm mad enough to /write/ in this language?
17:30:56 <ais523> I'll stick to INTERCAL, thank you very much
17:31:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean it is more insane than INTERCAL?
17:31:36 <ais523> INTERCAL is not insane
17:31:39 <ais523> it's deliberately strange
17:31:42 <ais523> but it has a kind-of logic to it
17:31:48 <ais523> it's hard to write, but I wouldn't call it insane
17:31:56 <AnMaster> ais523, hm BANKCAL, needs to be done
17:32:21 <AnMaster> (combining bankstar with INTERCAL)
17:32:30 <ais523> no, there'd be no point
17:32:46 <ais523> and I thought it was capitalised BancSTAR
17:32:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, implement INTERCAL in BANCSTAR then ;P
17:32:50 <ais523> but I might be wrong on that
17:32:56 <ais523> also, there are no docs for BancSTAR anywhere
17:32:59 <ais523> just a bit of example code
17:33:07 <ais523> with no explanation, so that the person who wrote it didn't get sued
17:33:35 <ais523> because BancSTAR is secret and proprietary
17:33:43 <ais523> the person hosting the article about it actually got takedown notices
17:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, the implementation would be. But hardly the language itself?
17:34:18 <ais523> and I guess the language was an in-house trade secret
17:34:41 <AnMaster> wasn't it a third party product they used?
17:34:57 <ais523> actually, IIRC the language was originally the VM for something else
17:35:06 <ais523> but the something else was too limited so they started using the lang directly
17:37:45 <AnMaster> ais523, a GUI generation tool iirc
17:39:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not enough info about it
17:40:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, err, see esolang wiki
17:40:38 <AnMaster> I'm quite fond of /// (article on esowiki is "slashes" iirc)
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18:08:43 <ais523> hmm, I thought we got http://esolangs.org/wiki//// to work?
18:15:44 <ais523> there's an environment variable you can set, IIRC
18:15:49 <ais523> but I've forgotten what it's called
18:15:51 <ais523> AnMaster probably knows
18:17:23 <ais523> does that replace or add to the standard locations?
18:18:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what Deewiant said or rpath
18:18:32 <AnMaster> rpath would be at link time of the application
18:18:40 <AnMaster> that way no need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH
18:19:02 <AnMaster> of course you can also just make the path a standard path if you wish. /etc/ld.so.conf
18:19:13 <AnMaster> might or might not be a good idea
18:19:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, iirc LD_LIBRARY_PATH prepends to the standard path btw
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18:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Googling "why language x is awful" gives some... interesting results.
19:02:28 <pikhq> "Why Befungebrainfuck is awful" :P
19:03:11 <pikhq> "OH GOD WITH THE TWO DIMENSIONAL NESS AND THE SELFMODIFICATION AND THE TAPE"
19:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people complaining about C's type system.
19:17:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There are many legitimate complaints about it.
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19:17:22 <pikhq> For instance, it doesn't go far enough.
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19:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, obviously you don't expect 1+"hello" to even compile, but it still makes sense.
19:18:07 <pikhq> 1+"hello" certainly compiles.
19:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: Yes, but if you were learning C, you wouldn't expect it to.
19:18:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And then they find out that C strings are syntactic sugar around array literals and it's all peachy.
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19:47:05 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> And array literals are syntactic sugar for pointers. <-- not exactly
19:47:40 <AnMaster> quite different results in that case
19:48:03 <AnMaster> the former will point to a read only copy of the string literal "bar"
19:48:19 <AnMaster> the latter will contain a read write copy
19:49:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: The former is not const-correct.
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21:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What sort of insane client doesn't tell you when you get disconnected due to ping timeouts?
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21:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And neither comments nor variable names are in English.
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22:26:08 <oerjan> Leonidas: did you find out what permute does?
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22:46:05 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: The former is not const-correct. <-- true, but it will by default compile without a warning
22:46:29 <AnMaster> needs more than -Wall -Wextra iirc
22:47:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it just needs -std=gnu99 or -std=c99. Which makes it so that const exists. :)
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00:04:49 <Leonidas> oerjan: yeah, i just had some trouble with the prolog implementation.
00:05:14 * Leonidas still fails at translating that to kanren, though.
00:06:25 * oerjan knows naught of kanren
00:10:27 <Leonidas> nobody knows that :) kanren is the obscure brother of prolog, designed for scheme
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02:25:33 <coppro> man, this calculus course is silly
02:25:52 <coppro> they explain integration by substitution so horribly, mainly because they don't want to teach it properly :/
02:28:45 <coppro> "If the question were simply \int x^7 dx, the solution would be \frac{x^8}{8}+C. What if the solution to this problem were y =
02:29:03 <coppro> *y = \frac{a(3x^2-5_^8)}{8}+C
02:29:22 <pikhq> ... That's horrid.
02:29:28 <coppro> (the question is \int 2x(3x^2-5)^7 dx)
02:31:19 <coppro> I have no clue what they expect students to do on a lot of these other questions, like \int \sqrt{2x+1} dx
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08:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who knows anything about the cascade-correlation algorithm, please step forward.
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08:44:18 <pikhq> THERE BE NOT PEEPS HERE
08:44:35 <elliottcable> so, first ever program written in Paws (the language I’ve been pouring the last half-year of my life into). Criticisms and such welcome. http://gist.github.com/415458
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10:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, your first name is suspiciously similar to that of alise.
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10:55:52 <ws> hey Phantom_Hoover
10:56:57 <ais523> I took a module that referenced them as part of my degree, didn't really understand it, and passed anyway
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11:02:44 <ws> Phantom_Hoover: ah, it's just 2nd order rather than gradient expansion in backprop, right?
11:03:24 <ais523> me and Keymaker have been the only active ones for ages
11:03:32 <ais523> what adminning do you need doing, or are you just curious?
11:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you check whether you have the "cascading" option when you try to protect a page
11:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a way of "salting" pages so they can't be created if you have cascade protection.
11:04:15 <ais523> nope, the version's too old
11:04:19 <ais523> but I can salt pages the old-fashioned way
11:04:26 <ais523> normally I don't bother unless they get spammed a lot, though
11:04:44 <ais523> (I used to be an admin on Wikipedia, too; and I remember when cascading was introduced)
11:05:28 <ais523> not that old, it was upgraded a few years ago
11:05:34 <ais523> it used to use a really really old version of MediaWiki
11:07:48 <ais523> I know of ReCAPTCHA-protected sites which get lots of spam anyway
11:08:12 <ais523> it's not actually broken, just it's cheap enough to employ minimum-wage Chinese workers to break the CAPTCHAs that some spammers actually bother
11:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell do they gain from overwriting pages with random gibberish?
11:11:40 <ais523> my guess is that it's a result of spammers scamming each other
11:12:09 <ais523> one group of spammers advertises "I can spam 100000 random wiki pages for $500" or whatever, and people foolish enough to actually want to advertise using spam hire them
11:12:37 <ais523> then the spammers rip them off by spamming places like Esolang which are going to be reverted by attentive admins, and which anyway use <nofollow>
11:12:45 <ais523> wait, it's not a tag, it's an attribute, but you get my point
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11:14:52 <ais523> there was a court case in the US recently where a company sent out loads of spam for advertising
11:15:02 <ais523> someone sued them for spamming, and they actually showed up in court and lost
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13:05:12 <oerjan> a mobius band is non-orientable, so no.
13:07:15 <oerjan> pretty obviously yes, given that is the top picture of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_(mathematics)
13:08:13 <oerjan> the klein bottle itself is 2-dimensional
13:08:50 <oerjan> mobius bands can be _embedded_ in 3d
13:09:19 <oerjan> (that's what you do when you make the obvious cut and twist representation)
13:09:49 <oerjan> my delay in answering you was because i had to remind myself of the difference between immersion and embedding
13:10:30 <oerjan> embedding = homeomorphism with range subset iirc
13:10:57 <oerjan> immersion though is only locally injective (one-to-one)
13:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So if it's immersed you put all of the points into a given space?
13:12:04 <oerjan> an embedding is a stricter kind of immersion
13:13:05 <oerjan> an immersion, you map all the points into a space such that _locally_ it's a homeomorphism (continuous bijection whose inverse is also continuous)
13:13:51 <oerjan> the subset of the space you are mapping into
13:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> But surely that would mean that the entire subset of the space would be filled with the thing you're immersing?
13:15:05 <oerjan> actually the wikipedia definitions imply that you use differentiable mappings, not just continuous ones.
13:15:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, i'm just saying range subset because the range is not necessarily the whole space mapped into
13:16:25 <oerjan> um without unrestricted TeX they couldn't write about large parts of mathematics
13:16:46 <oerjan> like that immersion of the klein bottle is not onto the whole of R^3
13:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but with it you are immediately beaten about the head with various weird symbols!
13:18:25 <oerjan> that article's introduction only contains very common math symbols afaict
13:18:50 <oerjan> letters, function arrow, element and subset
13:19:28 <oerjan> in fact you probably don't need TeX for it
13:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Although most modern stuff tends to be "Karspinky's surjection" and such
13:22:20 <oerjan> i'm not sure not using latin would help. there's rank and neighborhood :D
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13:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I fear that I am about to fall to the mathematical equivalent of the Curse of TV Tropes.
13:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> 5 hours later I will realise that I have 5 tabs on set theory alone open.
13:25:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: maybe you'll find it encouraging that much of that article _after_ the introduction is mostly incomprehensible to me as well (although i may know some of the words)
13:27:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised that the neural network algorithm I've been toying with is nearly 20 years old...
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13:31:04 <oerjan> on the bright side, it has not achieved sentience yet, or so we think
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16:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I'll have to write my own neural network framework...
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16:48:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, the annotation that is
16:50:16 * oerjan preferred the comic itself
16:50:27 <oerjan> the annotation was rather short
16:50:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, but that idea in it :D
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16:51:05 <pikhq> oerjan: IS TOO EARLY
16:51:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, here, take this allen key, should fit that mutter
16:51:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: of course
16:51:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: me and AnMaster talked about it so much last year we had to stop. or something.
16:52:27 * oerjan has read some pratchett and is pretty sure AnMaster has read more
16:52:48 * AnMaster wonders if oerjan reads shlock
16:52:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what? Disrworld?
16:53:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, IWC archive is bloody huge too
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16:54:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I jumped into the middle of shlock and then read forward from there (about a year's worth of comics iirc), then later I read the first few years
16:54:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh and darthanddroids of course.
16:54:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well same author as iwc so..
16:54:54 <oerjan> clearly what you need is http://www.archivebinge.net/comics.php
16:55:14 * oerjan hasn't used it himself
16:55:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, huh? what is the point of it?
16:55:30 <oerjan> er http://www.archivebinge.net/
16:55:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: to get an archive scheduled automatically
16:56:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh. you mean like giving you a few old comics / day from the archive or such?
16:56:53 <Deewiant> CCBI 2.1 is out. Nothing too special: fingerprints, fixes, optimizations.
16:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn you people, I had just gotten some CLOS docs up and was starting to do something.
16:57:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you still read mezacottta (sp?)
16:57:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i probably wouldn't know about it if it wasn't his
16:57:32 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: My Befunge-98 interpreter.
16:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I once challenged someone to read every single Mezzacotta strip...
16:57:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: sure, although mostly because i use it as my portal to all of DMM's emporium
16:58:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you don't say
17:01:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, markov chain iirc
17:01:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: i've stopped voting for other mezzacotta comics than the daily one, though. since almost none get into the hall of fame these days anyway.
17:02:12 <oerjan> minorly self-fulfilling prophecy, naturally
17:02:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hahahah.
17:02:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there was an April Fools day they did that, but it was temporary
17:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> They also didn't believe me when I told them the number of comics...
17:05:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, so which web comics do you read?
17:06:42 <oerjan> Freefall, XKCD, Girl Genius + Myth Adventures + Phil & Dixie (by Foglio), everything DMM related
17:07:27 <AnMaster> hm looked at Girl Genius. Steam punk iirc. Not my kind of thing really
17:08:19 <AnMaster> iwc, xkcd, darth and droids, schlock
17:08:41 <AnMaster> used to read uf before, and used to read some other dmm stuff. Tried freefall for a bit, but it was tooooooo sloooooow moving
17:09:10 <pikhq> User Friendly is pretty solidly meh.
17:09:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah but when you done that it is just too slow
17:09:24 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of Freefall.
17:09:34 <pikhq> Though it *is* a bit slow.
17:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover> But then you hit the end of the archives and it takes 3 months per minute of story.
17:09:39 <AnMaster> so it may be a good idea to split it into bi-yearly archive binges
17:09:53 <AnMaster> that may it might be enjoyable
17:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> <Guy who writes it> must have a long-reaching story plan...
17:10:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or not, and thus dragging out every minute of it
17:10:37 <AnMaster> because he/she can't think of something past a certain point
17:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> But I think he must have a plan, because stuff keeps going off, then coming back months later.
17:12:21 <AnMaster> also iirc that girls genius, apart from the steampunkness (and airships, true, but I much prefer heavier-than-air aircrafts, love flightsim of jet aircrafts, yay for transatlantic instrument navigation!), it seemed to be almost as slow as that freefall
17:13:04 <ws> Phantom_Hoover: what sort of data you're working on?
17:13:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: well there is _one_ heavier-than-air aircraft in girl genius (gil's invention)
17:13:27 <ws> Phantom_Hoover: you mentioned neural nets earlier
17:13:37 <oerjan> it's not prominent though
17:13:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't archive binge it, so... Gave up long before that
17:14:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: to be honest i've founded the latest storyline a bit technobabbly
17:14:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, also considering the context I doubt it is anything like a jet aircraft. I would guess it is probably flying by beating wings?
17:14:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a double decker iirc, like an earlier "normal" aircraft
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17:15:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, unrealistic for heavy stuff. And slow. Sure it has been done in in real life as an experiment. Carbon fibre and other very very light materials only
17:15:25 <AnMaster> it kind of worked, but extremely hard to control
17:15:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um not sure of terminology
17:15:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay those are just boring
17:15:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's the fastest plane in that world though, presumably :D
17:17:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, that isn't the point. I don't go for speed in my aircraft interest. I go for either manoeuvrability (yay, English Electric Lightning or the Harrier!) or heavy and interesting airliners. Mostly
17:17:52 <AnMaster> sure I fly a lot out of interest, but the fastest plane in the world (SR-71) is almost as boring as a biplan
17:18:52 <AnMaster> I can't locate where that would fit
17:18:59 <oerjan> if i can be ocd about correcting it you can be ocd about finding out where ;D
17:19:23 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
17:19:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, thanks for considering me a friend :(
17:20:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not currently no
17:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I *wanted* to be an aviation nerd, but I was foiled by various factors.
17:20:55 <AnMaster> I shave every month or so. When the hair gets in the way of eating
17:21:02 <AnMaster> too much work doing it more often
17:21:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: girl genius does have giant robots^H^H^H^H^H^Hmecha^H^H^H^H^Hclanks, though
17:21:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, neardness comes naturally.
17:21:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, mecha? How very boring
17:22:15 <AnMaster> giant robots, mecha or not, are fairly boring. Now it they were made out of lego that might no longer apply
17:23:27 * oerjan gives up trying to please AnMaster
17:24:59 <oerjan> it does seem to have a shortage of those
17:26:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, depends on if they actually worked (mechanical strength need not apply). Imagine a mecha built in lego technic. That would be fairly interesting
17:26:22 <AnMaster> if you could look at the assembly instructions that is
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17:26:44 * AnMaster has a lot of lego technic and such
17:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> With an RCX as a control unit, it could get interesting.
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18:29:27 <ws> yeah, only 5 minutes though
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18:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing you asked about was an idea for a language in which you specify a fitness metric and the compiler creates a neural network acording to it.
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19:46:33 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> With an RCX as a control unit, it could get interesting. <--- yeah, 3 motors
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21:26:28 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: distributed applications, web applications, client/server stuff
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21:26:42 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: positioned to replace Ruby/JavaScript or Python/JavaScript
21:34:12 <elliottcable> though somebody in the channel created another clone of brainfuck called bewbs
21:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> My idea is to have a language that is a specification for a neural network.
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21:59:09 <Sgeo> I'd love Android more if erm, I think I should blame the phone, not the software
21:59:15 <Sgeo> Although HTC_IME lags
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22:21:28 <AnMaster> conclusion: bottom up design for lego is not a good idea
22:21:45 <AnMaster> I never been good at top down design though
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22:40:09 <Portponky> I made a crappy BF style game with challenges and crap
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23:03:12 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust that is
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23:07:27 <Portponky> its got some challenges for programs to write which it tests. its pretty much BF but with easier i/o
23:07:47 <Portponky> in that , and . just put numbers to/from the tape
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23:16:42 <Zuu> Whoah! i think my poopish language is ready for prime time :D ... except it only has a win32 interpreter so far, but a linux version is on the way
23:17:43 <Zuu> In case anyone should be interrested in my quite different language: http://zuu.dk/regexpl.php
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23:21:58 <AnMaster> Portponky, makes char IO harder
23:22:30 <AnMaster> Zuu, tell me when there is a linux version
23:23:02 <Zuu> Im sure it will execute on wine with no trouble.
23:23:46 <Zuu> there might be a linux version tomorrow, or maybe first in a month
23:24:06 <Zuu> AnMaster: yes, it should work on 64 wine too
23:24:22 <Zuu> Nitghties :)
23:25:03 <Zuu> I havent tested it on either though, but i see no reason why it wouldnt run.
23:25:57 <Zuu> The only reason i havent compiled it for linux yet, is because of some pcre foop :)
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00:08:59 <pikhq> It's... My God, my Internet is working NORMALLY
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02:52:16 <oerjan> <pikhq> It's... My God, my Internet is working NORMALLY <-- i guess it must be the end times then
02:58:04 <pikhq> Nope, stopped working right again.
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03:33:40 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: have you ever tried eating your arm? it's quite tasty.
03:34:45 <pikhq> There are few cannibals on IRC.
03:35:03 <oerjan> pikhq: [citation needed]
03:35:27 * Sgeo just submitted a troll post to Reddit
03:35:54 <Sgeo> Well, I guess it depends how you define "troll"
03:36:11 <oerjan> big, brutish, should avoid sunlight?
03:36:38 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/iamaf/comments/c8w9v/iamna_person_trolling_riamaf_with_this_post/
03:37:18 <Sgeo> It's not a comment, it's a submission
03:38:37 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: from what I can see, anything goes on IAMAF
03:39:06 <Sgeo> So it's fully true that I'm not trolling, then? Hm
03:39:14 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have said that I am trolling
03:39:40 <Sgeo> No, I think that's said in IAmNA, which does imply that it's a fictional persona?
03:40:10 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: just so long as you follow the unencyclopedia guideline of "try to be funny and not just stupid"
03:40:39 <Sgeo> I don't think I can add anything that would be funny and not just stupid
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03:42:05 <Mathnerd314> I mean, just consider "IAm(N)An invisible pink unicorn."
03:50:56 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:51:35 <uorygl> What HackEgo means to say, of course, is "Alexander Pánek is decent nasal incontinent."
03:52:32 <uorygl> `cp /bin/cat bin/translate
03:52:42 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:53:02 <uorygl> `run cp /bin/cat bin/translate
03:53:06 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:53:14 <uorygl> `run ls -l bin/translate
03:53:20 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 56296 May 28 02:52 bin/translate
03:53:32 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 56296 Jun 5 2009 /bin/cat
03:54:00 <Gregor> Yes, translate is broken.
03:54:12 <uorygl> `run cp /bin/echo bin/translate
03:54:14 <oerjan> uorygl: cat doesn't take it's file as a command line argument
03:54:21 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:54:22 <HackEgo> Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:54:23 <oerjan> or, well, you know what i mean
03:54:43 <uorygl> `translate I can now translate anything at a rapid rate of speed.
03:54:44 <HackEgo> I can now translate anything at a rapid rate of speed.
03:55:46 <uorygl> It can quickly translate anything at a rapid rate of fast speed.
03:57:46 * uorygl is intrigued by some of Google Translate's translations.
03:58:00 <uorygl> Welcome to Grand Valley State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand Valley.
03:58:15 <uorygl> Welcome to Grand Rapids State University. -> Bienvenidos a Grand Rapids State University.
03:58:33 <uorygl> Welcome to Grand Attitude State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand Actitud.
03:58:39 <oerjan> la grande rapido universidad estatal
03:59:00 <uorygl> Welcome to Large Attitude State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad del Estado de gran actitud.
03:59:29 <uorygl> Welcome to Large Rock State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad Gran Estado Rock.
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04:00:50 <uorygl> Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal del Valle Grande. Bienvenido a Gran Rapids State University. Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand Rock.
04:01:09 <uorygl> Bienvenido a la Universidad de Green State Reaper.
04:03:32 <uorygl> Bienvenido a la Universidad Gran Rostro Estado. Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand cara. Bienvenido a la cara de la Universidad del Estado.
04:03:47 <myndzi\> `translate Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
04:03:48 <HackEgo> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
04:03:48 <uorygl> I wonder why it said "Bienvenidos" precisely once.
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04:04:14 <uorygl> myndzi: Buffalo Buffalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo.
04:04:42 <myndzi> it's missing two more proper nouns
04:07:19 <uorygl> Spanish sentence: La rata que el gato que el perro mordió persiguió escapó.
04:07:29 <uorygl> Its Google translation: The rat the cat the dog bit chased escaped.
04:07:54 <uorygl> The impression ends there, however.
04:08:00 <uorygl> Back to Spanish: La rata, el gato al perro mordió perseguido escapado.
04:08:18 <uorygl> Back to English: The rat the cat the dog bit chased escaped.
04:08:22 <uorygl> That is kind of impressive, actually.
04:09:26 <uorygl> That Spanish sentence actually means "The rat, the cat bit the dog that had (been) chased and escaped."
04:10:22 <uorygl> And is a strange way of saying it.
04:21:16 <pikhq> But it comes back to English unscathed.
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09:25:13 <AnMaster> <Zuu> The only reason i havent compiled it for linux yet, is because of some pcre foop :) <-- hm? libpcre not installed or?
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09:30:09 * Sgeo should probably do something blasphemous, like sleep
09:37:47 * Sgeo should make a song of the various semantics of assignment in different languages, to the theme of the llama song
09:38:25 <Sgeo> Hm, I thought it would begin "C and C++ make copies", but I'm not sure that that's accurate for C++
09:39:14 <Sgeo> C#'s really a strange bugger, sometimes copies, sometimes...
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09:40:17 <Sgeo> I should say "the assignment operator", since it can sometimes be used for things that aren't actually assignment (Ruby, C#, Python, others?)
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09:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You can overload the assignment operator in C++, can't you?
09:55:12 <Sgeo> I.. know there's a copy constructor, don't know how that works with operator overloading
09:55:40 <Sgeo> Haskell has an assignment operator. It's just more.. permanent
09:56:39 <Sgeo> I should probably sleep
09:56:43 <Sgeo> It's almost 5am
09:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> When I was your age we had one time zone, and we were happy with it!
10:06:18 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Hm, I thought it would begin "C and C++ make copies", but I'm not sure that that's accurate for C++
10:06:42 <AnMaster> Sgeo, C has a fairly straight forward assignment
10:07:13 <AnMaster> well it makes copies if you consider the variable itself. You copy the pointer and so on.
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13:43:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw nice backronym in iwc today
13:43:30 <oerjan> actually it's not so much headache as my noise sensitivity being extra bad today
13:44:14 <oklopol> you're more noise sensitive than the average human?
13:44:20 <oerjan> ok, a little headache too
13:46:04 <oklopol> i've never met anyone with as low a threshold for early pain as myself
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13:54:05 <AnMaster> <oklopol> you're more noise sensitive than the average human? <-- I am. Due to better than average hearing (had this tested many years ago)
13:54:22 <AnMaster> especially at the typical "background noise" frequencies
13:54:55 * oerjan isn't sure DMM's explanation of why three satellites is needed is correct
13:55:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? what would be wrong in it?
13:55:41 <oerjan> because you don't actually get the distance from the signal of a single satellite, i think, unless your receiver also has an atomic clock
13:55:58 <oerjan> you only get the _difference_ between the distances to the satellites
13:56:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, and are all the GPS satellites geostationary?
13:56:26 <AnMaster> or do they broadcast their own position?
13:56:34 <oerjan> they broadcast their position
13:56:51 <oklopol> also our dog has an awesome hearing but she's not that sensitive to loud noises
13:56:58 <oklopol> so i don't think there's necessarily a connection
13:58:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, different species. Could have a lot higher inherent noise insensitivity
13:58:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, and there are other factors than just how well you hear when considering noise sensitivity
13:58:55 <AnMaster> but I would maintain that (for humans at least) it is one of the factors
13:58:57 <oklopol> okay then; a friend of mine has a much better hearing than me, but is not at all sensitive to loud noises
13:59:23 <oerjan> i expect a lot of my noise sensitivity is psychological, anyway
13:59:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, better hearing at which freqs?
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13:59:58 <oklopol> like doesn't have to wear ear plugs in concerts whereas my ears start hurting if i use earphones for too long (good ones)
14:00:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but if you are noise sensitive then hearing more noises than most people (due to better hearing) will only make it worse
14:00:17 <AnMaster> thus there is a connection in some sense
14:00:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: not tested, i just know i have an average hearing, and he can tell species of motorcycles by their sound
14:00:40 <oerjan> i'm _immensely_ annoyed by coughing and sniffling
14:00:53 <oklopol> or maybe i should say races
14:01:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, that depends on how loud. Some people are worse than others when it comes to coughing.
14:02:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: loudness is almost immaterial for me there
14:02:15 <oklopol> well at least with humans, i get insanely annoyed with machines all the time tho
14:04:59 <oklopol> err well actually i guess i have a better than average hearing
14:05:12 <oklopol> but i don't have a phenomenal hearing
14:05:49 <oklopol> i think one of my ears got the second best possible score when it was last checked
14:05:54 <oklopol> and the other one was perfect
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14:06:44 <oklopol> score, as in i didn't hear the highest note
14:07:08 <oerjan> ah, "Three satellites might seem enough to solve for position, since space has three dimensions and a position near the Earth's surface can be assumed. However, even a very small clock error multiplied by the very large speed of light[23].the speed at which satellite signals propagate.results in a large positional error. Therefore receivers use four or more satellites to solve for the receiver's location and time."
14:09:00 <oklopol> i don't exactly believe in light, has anyone actually SEEN light, like ever?
14:09:39 <oklopol> also i was asked to give a seminar on esoteric programming languages
14:10:15 <oklopol> (and on cellular automata)
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14:10:26 <oklopol> or well maybe more like presentation w/e
14:13:29 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure about the CA talk because i have yet to read my first paper about that stuff
14:13:48 <Quadrescence> oklopol: want me to give the CA seminar instead
14:13:50 <oklopol> although i know the topology stuff from the theory of tiling
14:14:04 <oklopol> you like this computability stuff right?
14:16:41 <oklopol> i like it when the problems are interesting, but i guess i prefer it if the results are useless
14:17:48 <Quadrescence> At heart I'm someone who likes things to be implemented.
14:18:21 <Quadrescence> If the theory of computability can help me determine if something is implementable, great.
14:19:12 <oklopol> SO HAVE YOU GUYS SEEN THAT NEW HIP PAPER ABOUT FIXED POINT TILE SETS
14:22:41 <AnMaster> okay wtf. filling out a form has a question for age, with ranges like "31-40", "41-50" and so on. However there is "younger than 20" and "21-31". No option for exactly 20...
14:23:28 <oklopol> are 20-yo's supposed to be filling it?
14:23:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: clearly it was written by people with a specific hate against 20 year old pedants
14:23:59 <oklopol> are you sure there isn't a separate form for 20-yo's?
14:24:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is from my university, they are doing some survey on how you travel there. Like "by bus" "by car", ...
14:24:10 <Quadrescence> HOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
14:24:40 <oerjan> Quadrescence: your keyboard is hung up, hth
14:24:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I'm pretty sure it is aimed at 20 years old yes. Surely they know how old I am at the university.
14:25:08 <Quadrescence> "less than 20" was probs supposed to be "20 or less
14:25:14 <oerjan> AnMaster asking what hth means: shut up
14:25:42 <oerjan> I JUST WANTED TO SAVE YOU SOME WORK THERE
14:26:23 <oklopol> today there was this paper where they said it's in RE to check if a tile set has at least one tiling and all its tilings have exactly the periods (0, km) and (km, 0) for all k \in N
14:26:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, I assume that tile has some very specific meaning here?
14:27:18 <oerjan> um well you can emulate turing machines using tiles, so RE results or not exactly unexpected
14:27:21 <oklopol> you fill Z^2 with tiles, each tile has a color on each side
14:27:30 <oklopol> and the colors have to match
14:27:33 <oklopol> oerjan: but it's not in RE!
14:28:00 <oklopol> consider T1 \union T2 for some weird-ass set T2 and T1 which is m-periodic
14:28:12 <oerjan> oklopol: was this for _any_ set of tiles or a specific class?
14:28:39 <AnMaster> okay what are tiles in this context really?
14:28:50 <oklopol> you fill Z^2 with tiles, each tile has a color on each side
14:28:52 <oklopol> and the colors have to match
14:29:07 <oklopol> like top and bottom have to be the same if a tile is on top of another
14:29:33 <oerjan> wait are these tiles squares?
14:29:50 <oerjan> so not jigsaw puzzles here :D
14:29:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, sounds like a game I remember playing ages ago, but there it wasn't Z² but a 6x6 gird
14:30:06 <oklopol> no you can translate jigsaw to wang
14:30:27 <oklopol> and reasonable jigsaw to wang
14:30:46 <oerjan> the other way would require the jigsaw pieces to have compatible sizes i guess...
14:30:56 <AnMaster> ah indeed wang tiles does seem like those used in that game. Thought it was a bad joke at first. ;P
14:31:05 <oklopol> in some sense. i don't know much about the geometric aspect
14:31:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: i can't, i don't know anything about the geometric aspect
14:31:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, also you forgot 3D jigsaws
14:31:41 <AnMaster> presumably you meant 2D ones only?
14:31:57 <oklopol> i said Z^2, obviously you can do any Z^n
14:32:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, well but you couldn't translate a Z^3 jigsaw to Z^2 wang tiles right?
14:32:49 <AnMaster> btw that gave me an idea for a game, jigsaw on a torus.
14:33:00 <oklopol> anyway all the problems are undecidable for wangs so you they are undecidable for more general sets too; the translation from wangs to jigsaws is trivial, you just add bumps
14:34:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: no you can't translate a R^3 jigsaw to Z^2 wang tiles, you can't even translate R^2-jig to Z^2-wang in general
14:35:00 <AnMaster> but weren't those two statements equivalent? Or is jig != jigsaw?
14:35:21 <oerjan> oklopol: you said this was a paper so i presume the proof was non-obvious
14:35:22 <AnMaster> (well, the latter is a person, but in the context of that sentence I meant)
14:35:29 <oklopol> wang = wang tile, jig = jigsaw tile, i meant any shape homeomorphic to a ball
14:35:52 <oklopol> oerjan: the proof for RE was "obviously"
14:35:59 <AnMaster> oh wait, I misread that as innuendo. doh
14:37:03 <oklopol> what they were actually proving was E and O are in RE and inseparable, where E and O are tile sets that are m-periodic with even and odd m respectively
14:37:21 <oklopol> it's true they are inseparable (the nontrivial part), but the RE claim is not true
14:37:48 <oklopol> *E and O are the families of tile sets ...
14:37:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, so make an article disproving it?
14:38:23 <oklopol> it was like lemma 56 with "this claim is not actually interesting by itself, but illustrates the technique well" above it
14:39:02 <oerjan> um so the paper was wrong?
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14:39:29 <oklopol> wrong about RE, right about the nontrivial part of inseparability
14:41:06 <oklopol> i just wanted to insert my version of wtf someone made a mistake
14:41:43 <oklopol> also they probably meant to say that an m-periodic tile set is one that allows at least one tiling with period m in both directions, this is obviously in R
14:41:49 <oerjan> oklopol: you were not initially very clear about this being why you said wtf ;)
14:43:16 <oklopol> i prefer unclear conversations
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14:44:49 <oklopol> <oerjan> um well you can emulate turing machines using tiles, so RE results or not exactly unexpected <<< do you just know from wp or something or have you read stuff about this
14:45:02 <oklopol> well i guess that's folklore
14:45:06 <oerjan> "or something", i guess
14:45:24 <oklopol> did you know affine maps can emulate turing machines in R^2 and up?
14:46:17 <oerjan> i cannot quite connect the concept of affine maps to emulating anything, there...
14:46:35 <oklopol> basically you have (r_1, q + r_2) as state, you can move on the tape by multiplication by constant, and change state and tape values by adding constantes
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14:48:20 <oerjan> um you mean using an affine map as the machine state?
14:48:37 <oklopol> and also turns out you can emulate affine maps with tilings (my supervisors idea), which i'm trying to use to add new fun properties to aperiodic sets
14:48:45 <oklopol> no machine state is two reals
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14:49:14 <oklopol> then depending on the square you're in, which depends on q and the first digits of r_i's (tops of stacks)
14:49:19 <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
14:49:32 <Quadrescence> "you move on the tape and shit" ~quote of the day
14:50:02 <oerjan> oh well. but conditioning on the square you're in is not an affine operation afaik
14:50:37 <oklopol> oh sorry i guess the term is partial affine maps or something
14:50:45 <oerjan> `addquote <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
14:50:55 <HackEgo> 166|<oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
14:51:18 <oklopol> you split the domain in some sort of areas and there's an affine map for each domain
14:51:49 <oklopol> a frequent thingie to do in dynamic systems stuffology
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14:52:11 <oerjan> yeah, i've mingled with people who did that sort of thing :D
14:52:31 <oerjan> (tilings and translation stuff)
14:52:49 <oklopol> in 1d most problems become decidable, if the affine map is continuous, but if it's not then no one knows anything
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14:53:45 <oklopol> i first heard the term like two weeks ago
14:55:25 <oerjan> oklopol: i find that unlikely, given that it's in the title of at least some of my articles i believe
14:55:46 <oklopol> i meant decidability stuff
14:55:54 <oklopol> if you know about that, it would be VERY useful
14:56:41 <oerjan> i don't think we did much of that no
14:58:26 <oklopol> well okay i guess it's not that important anymore, my current problems are related to immortality of turing machines, so if you know good anything about that stuff, would be useful
14:59:45 <oklopol> basically i need to enforce certain properties for tm output no matter what tape it's started on, and usually it's complicated to prove this stuff because a tm like that can't do any sort of unbounded search
15:00:10 <oklopol> the initial random tape can have infinitely many non-blanks
15:01:47 <oklopol> i mean a tm whose output has some property given any initial tape can't have any sort of repetitive behavior because you can cheat it into some sort of infloop
15:02:30 <oerjan> ok i retract that, all the articles i thought of just seem to just say "minimal systems" in the title
15:03:02 <oerjan> dynamical systems that are minimal, of course *cough*
15:03:04 <oklopol> affine systems with no closed subsystems?
15:03:32 <oerjan> every orbit is a dense subset, is one of the equivalent formulations
15:04:16 <oklopol> okay that's actually exactly the kind of stuff i would've needed last week
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15:04:45 <oerjan> another is that there are no closed or open subsets preserved by the dynamics, other than the empty set and the whole space
15:05:06 <oklopol> preserved as in maps to inside it?
15:06:01 <oerjan> at least those are equivalent in the context we studied (single transformation on a compact hausdorff space)
15:07:15 <oerjan> (that's sort of obvious because the closure of an orbit is a preserved set)
15:07:34 <oklopol> i would've needed some sort of ways to show a system of affine maps does not have a period
15:07:36 <oerjan> *invariant set, may be the terminology
15:09:18 <oerjan> and well minimal systems don't have periods, true, but minimal is a pretty strong condition
15:09:31 <oerjan> oklopol: or homeomorphic to it
15:09:49 <oklopol> it, because they are all homeomorphic to each other
15:12:08 <oerjan> oklopol: hm that repetitive behavior of a tm, it occurs to me you can control things somewhat by making sure the stuff you've already seen is in a known format
15:12:39 <oerjan> so what's to the left of the tape head isn't a problem
15:14:15 <oerjan> although if you then move left, you need to be sure the boundary to the unknown region is clearly marked so it doesn't trick you when you move back...
15:15:19 <oerjan> ah. well you need to make sure the beginning is clearly marked too, then
15:15:34 <oklopol> if you at some point need to go back to the marker
15:15:43 <oklopol> what i failed to mention is
15:15:49 <oklopol> the turing machine can also start in any state :)
15:15:58 <oklopol> so if you at some point have to go to a marker...
15:16:39 <oerjan> indeed now it looks hard
15:16:55 <oklopol> i have to assume anything can happen because we're encoding all this in a real number and the affine system has to have convex and compact domains
15:17:37 <oklopol> for minsky machines it's trivial to show mortality is undecidable, the "stacks" have a finite number, so you just have some counter N, simulate N steps, reboot and simulate 2N and so on
15:17:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone sum up what you have been talking about over the last ~2 hours?
15:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (Incidentally, I found the thing about ICBMs rather funny)
15:19:20 <oerjan> it's rather obvious once you think of it
15:20:45 <oerjan> that you don't want terrorists to be able to use GPS for missiles
15:20:58 <oerjan> using commercially available parts
15:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Or do the satellites not send enough data to calculate?
15:21:33 <oklopol> no they can make missiles but gps is too hard
15:21:55 <oklopol> well it probably actually is a lot harder, i haven't tried making either
15:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Is the technology secret, or just nigh-impossible to build at home?
15:22:29 <oklopol> also who cares about GPS and IWC when there's tiles involved
15:23:00 <oklopol> i'm a professional jigsaw puzzle composer
15:23:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't think it's secret but it will be harder for the terrorists if they need to get their own expertise and maybe even factories...
15:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I think jigsaws and Wang tiles are equivalent.
15:23:44 <oerjan> although they can probably just buy from North Korea :(
15:23:53 <oklopol> there was a piece of discussion about that
15:24:11 <oklopol> but wang tiles can be compiled into jigsaws by adding bumps and dents
15:25:38 <oklopol> first thing you do one a tilings course
15:25:47 <oerjan> the other way around apparently has subtleties
15:27:18 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover do you know all about aperiodic tile sets
15:27:32 <oerjan> (i'm really misquoting oklopol there)
15:28:00 <oklopol> and aperiodic tile set is one that allows tilings, but no periodic ones
15:28:18 <oerjan> aperiodic is pretty essential for those tile sets that turn into minimal dynamical systems, iirc
15:28:48 <oklopol> yeah penrose tiles are one of the geometric constructions
15:29:41 <oerjan> i _think_ the space of penrose tiles under translation was a minimal system
15:30:00 <oklopol> there are 3 known ways to make aperiodic tiles, one is the geometric ones that have some sort of recursive structure (although the details can vary lots), then there's the all-new fixed point tile sets that can do almost anything, and then there's the one based on beatty sequences made by my supervisor (smallest known)
15:30:08 <oerjan> they probably need to be at least somewhat compatibly oriented
15:30:25 <oklopol> oerjan: you've done tiling minimality stuff?
15:30:49 <oklopol> argh, it's been like two weeks and i still don't know anything :<
15:30:54 <oerjan> as i said above, i've mingled with that kind of people
15:31:04 <oklopol> i should go read stuff prolly
15:32:31 <oerjan> as for those 3 ways, does it include cutting planes of higher dimensional tilings?
15:32:49 <oerjan> i think i recall penrose tilings could be got by cutting something five-dimensional
15:32:54 <oklopol> i don't know of proofs that were originally based on those
15:32:59 <oerjan> or something like that
15:33:06 <oklopol> but yeah i suppose that's different
15:33:34 <oklopol> i think penroses were just later noted to be cuts like that, or something
15:33:41 <oerjan> hm or maybe it was just 3, but with a suitable angle
15:34:01 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if i'm something, then i'm a mathematician; but i don't think i'm anything yet
15:34:20 <oerjan> yeah it may not have been penrose's original construction. then i don't really recall.
15:34:47 <oklopol> oerjan: so i guess the third category is "geometrical stuff"
15:35:09 <oklopol> ones where you actually think about them as tiles and not just local constraints on C^(Z^2)
15:36:04 <oklopol> the geometric ones aren't nearly as flexible as the fixed point thing (where you can basically make a tm compute anything on the tape), and hopefully the thing i'm doing now
15:36:25 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: elements of that are integer lattices filled with elements of C
15:36:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol has switched from computer science to mathematics since he came here
15:37:00 * oerjan wonders if he's responsible for that
15:37:04 <oklopol> well the cartesian product Z * Z
15:38:27 <oerjan> C is just an arbitrary set here, i presume
15:38:30 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: the set of pairs with both elements of Z
15:38:34 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, i hit a random key
15:38:56 <oerjan> although i would suppose the complex numbers _would_ be big enough for all your needs
15:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> You could have picked T, or, W, or something without a well-known prior definition, but noooo.
15:39:47 <oklopol> A^B is the set of functions f : B -> A, A^2 is the cartesian product of A with itself
15:40:02 <oklopol> oh you were confused about complexes right
15:40:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(group)
15:40:39 <oklopol> in that case, what oerjan said, you can interpret it as complex numbers
15:40:58 <oklopol> i was thinking of just lattice as a geometrical idea, but okay :P
15:42:08 <oerjan> oklopol: well, this is as opposed to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(order)
15:42:42 <oklopol> i just had the exam about universal algebra btw, GUESS HOW IT WENT
15:42:57 <oerjan> (a completely different meaning, although there is probably _some_ connection (almost _everything_ in math is connected to the latter one, isn't it)
15:43:14 <oklopol> well there's a connection between the geometric intuition and both of them
15:44:26 <oerjan> oklopol: well i guess you aced it, as otherwise you would have been miserably complaining already if i know you ;D
15:44:44 <oklopol> yeah not much to complain this year, i've been studied much more
15:45:28 <oklopol> math is more motivating than programming for mobile phones and software engineering
15:45:36 <oerjan> oh forgetting to eat again
15:48:46 <oklopol> i should eat too, although my stomach hurts from drinking coffee all day
15:50:12 <oklopol> oerjan: you may be partly responsible, but i think it was more the math courses i took, so don't feel bad
15:51:06 <oklopol> it wasn't exactly a calculated decision, i was told i should switch to math and i was like fuck that's true
15:51:58 <oklopol> at some point all my cs had been replaced with math cells, without me knowing it
15:53:02 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> You could have picked T, or, W, or something without a well-known prior definition, but noooo. <-- he didn't use unicode blackboard bold chars
15:53:09 <AnMaster> if he had it would have been way more confusing
15:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> But *no-one* uses them here, and he used Z for the nats.
15:53:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I use unicode notation if I remember to and I'm not too lazy
15:54:14 <oerjan> oklopol: it's not like i would feel bad even if i were responsible, though ;D
15:55:22 * oerjan cackles evilly just for good measure
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15:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Leading impressionable youth into your evil line of "mathematics".
15:58:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: why not do like oerjan and read my mind :P
15:59:24 <oklopol> that's the first thing you do when you don't understand something
16:00:44 <oklopol> oerjan: i presume A, U and M are arbitrary sets there
16:01:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, is that the product of the sets or something then?
16:02:30 <oklopol> usually i've seen it mean the multiplication of pairs of elements of the languages X and Y
16:02:49 <oklopol> i mean {xy | x \in X, y \in Y}
16:03:22 <oklopol> but if there isn't a multiplication then cartesian product might be the next logical interpretation
16:03:33 <oklopol> in the logic of intuitivity
16:04:02 <AnMaster> argh is it just me or has the download system on sf.net gotten slower and more complex to use over time?
16:04:18 <oklopol> but bye for now, oerjan can say my lines from now on ->
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16:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I once ticked all of the boxes in a survey according to the Thue-Morse sequence.
16:34:00 * oerjan did that for his suitcase combination
16:36:49 * oerjan chants the ancient curse of eyjafjallajökull at Phantom_Hoover
16:37:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, Thue-Morse sequence?
16:38:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it has great powers to thwart your plane flight
16:39:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, Norway has that maelstrom iirc
16:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Start with 0, then concatenate it with the complement
16:39:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, could also get into issues from volcano
16:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: So iterating it goes 0, 01, 0110, 01101001...
16:40:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm why does that remind me of gray code...
16:41:27 * Phantom_Hoover uses a Kolmogorov machine to teleport into oerjan's office
16:41:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~::^S!^*a~^~*a*~:^):^
16:41:45 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
16:42:08 -!- lament has joined.
16:42:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:42:27 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:42:57 * AnMaster tries to imagine a gray code computer.
16:43:20 <AnMaster> I wonder how to represent a signed number in gray code
16:44:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? an n-bit gray code encoding can be mapped 1:1 to an n-bit binary encoding
16:45:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yes that is the point that they differ by only 1 bit between any pair of numbers next to each other
16:46:33 <AnMaster> but it still goes through all combinations. For an example:
16:47:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, while an adder for a 4 bit gray code number would probably be quite a pain it shouldn't be impossible
16:48:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, another important thing with gray code is of course that there is only one bit difference between first and last element too
16:49:33 <AnMaster> I wonder how infeasible basic arithmetic would be in gray code...
16:49:58 <oklopol> i don't know why i asked that :P
16:50:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Encoder_Disc_%283-Bit%29.svg
16:50:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, imagine that is a disk used in some machinery to read the angle of rotation
16:51:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, it uses lamps and sensors to see if an area is black or white
16:51:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, now in practise these might not be perfectly aligned
16:51:45 <AnMaster> resulting in you could get an inconsistent reading when right at an edge between two values
16:52:16 <AnMaster> with a binary coding you could end up at the wrong side of the disc in your reading that way
16:52:20 <oklopol> so what you're saying is "of course, because that makes most sense"
16:52:33 <oklopol> and not "of course, because the last one is forced"
16:52:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, and since it is a circle it must match up between max value and least value
16:52:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, I know the engineering reason for it :P
16:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Doing addition and subtraction mechanically would be easy.
16:54:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:55:23 <oklopol> it has a very regular structure so you could imagine there's a faster addition than looped increment (i guess maybe you could just translate between binary?)
16:55:30 <Phantom_Hoover> With one of the wheels, a non-destructive copy routine.
16:56:20 <oklopol> (i interpreted your "mechanically" as "")
16:57:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should tell those Rube Goldberg computer people about it...
16:57:41 <oklopol> okay so grey -> binary should be easy, first bit is first bit, then you just invert or something if the first bit was one and recurse
16:58:01 <oklopol> i don't remember the exact construction, but i think there's some simple way
16:58:37 <oklopol> math is all about cheating :P
16:58:58 -!- hiato has joined.
16:58:59 <oklopol> once you know how to do it with the translations
16:59:09 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit).
16:59:13 <oklopol> you can try to do it without them by just looking at what it's doing
16:59:30 -!- hiato has joined.
17:00:07 <oerjan> hm, is the thue-morse sequence simply the last bits of the gray codes?
17:00:31 <oklopol> well how are the grey codes constructed?
17:00:56 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~::^S!^*a~^~*a*~:^):^
17:00:56 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
17:01:12 <oerjan> it cannot be, because it sometimes changes twice in a row
17:01:27 <oklopol> i recall in grey codes you first do some 2^n lines L and then you add a one in the beginning and do L's inverted or something
17:01:39 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Doing addition and subtraction mechanically would be easy. <-- yes but I meant electronically
17:01:53 <oerjan> which would mean it got back where you started since only one bit can change at a time for the gray code
17:01:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also, multiplication and division looks *really* tricky
17:03:00 <AnMaster> <oklopol> it has a very regular structure so you could imagine there's a faster addition than looped increment (i guess maybe you could just translate between binary?) <-- as I said above I was considering a computer that only used gray code, no binary encoding
17:03:22 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should tell those Rube Goldberg computer people about it... <-- what?
17:03:34 <oklopol> oh you don't reverse or flip any bit sequences, you just do R in reverse order
17:03:41 <AnMaster> (if it was a joke I'm disappointed!)
17:03:45 <oklopol> L being the bit strings used sofar
17:04:12 <AnMaster> <oklopol> okay so grey -> binary should be easy, first bit is first bit, then you just invert or something if the first bit was one and recurse <-- iirc the standard way is some xor gate net
17:04:14 <oklopol> 0 1 11 10 110 111 101 100 1100 1101 1111 1110 ...
17:04:19 <AnMaster> or was that for computing parity?
17:04:33 <oklopol> or at least that way you can make a thingie that always changes one bit
17:05:38 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:06:01 <oerjan> hm it would seem the last bit of gray code just goes 0110 indefinitely
17:06:40 <oerjan> and each other bit does the same, just slower
17:06:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is a trivial result of how gray code is generated
17:07:04 <oklopol> first they go 0110, let that be a_0, then you always add the same things in the reverse order, so a_(i+1) = a_i (a_i)^-1
17:07:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: well yeah it was just relevant to my thue-morse question
17:07:56 <oklopol> and w w^-1 iterated with that rule is always just (w w^-1)^n's
17:08:12 <oklopol> not exactly those but among those
17:09:31 -!- tombom has joined.
17:09:41 <oklopol> "<AnMaster> oerjan, that is a trivial result of how gray code is generated" <<< i retract my statement, proof by AnMaster is better
17:10:23 <oerjan> oklopol: um you were saying the same thing
17:10:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, I did not consider that it needed any proof. It should be self evident if you know the algorithm for generating it.
17:10:33 <oklopol> oerjan: but i started rambling
17:10:46 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's what i said
17:11:08 <oklopol> seriously, read my mind and not my messages
17:11:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, I can't. Distance too large
17:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Did no-one read the thing on the Rube Goldberg computer?
17:15:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I looked at it. Somewhat interesting
17:16:14 -!- ineiros_ has joined.
17:18:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I have a better idea for the pneumatic ram
17:18:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is, for how to read it
17:19:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, suction, and check if you get an under-preasure in the tube. Then the cone connected to it is blocked
17:19:30 <AnMaster> rather than having conducting balls and some wires
17:19:57 <AnMaster> of course I'm not sure how feasible it would be to get a tight enough fit for that
17:25:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why are they using 8 bit words btw
17:25:11 <AnMaster> it seems silly to _not_ use something else in this case
17:39:16 <oerjan> ^ul ( )S((S(0 )S)(S(1 )S))(~:^()~^!:^*(:)~*a~^~*(:)~*a*~:^):^
17:39:16 <fungot> 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 ...too much output!
17:40:20 <oerjan> ^ul ( )S((S(0 )S)(S(1 )S))(~:^()~^!:^*((0)~*:)~*a~^~*((1)~*:)~*a*~:^):^
17:40:21 <fungot> 1 11 10 111 110 010 011 1111 1110 0110 0111 0010 0011 1011 1010 11111 11110 01110 01111 00110 00111 10111 10110 00010 00011 10011 10010 11011 11010 01010 01011 111111 111110 011110 011111 001110 001111 101111 101110 000110 000111 100111 100110 110111 110110 010110 010111 000010 000011 100011 100010 110011 110010 010010 01 ...too much output!
18:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Norway's coastline has a Hausdorff dimension of 1.52
18:13:11 <oerjan> that's norway, always bringing chaos to the world
18:16:43 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
18:26:00 -!- alise has joined.
18:26:38 <alise> 02:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliottcable: What's the language for?
18:26:39 <alise> 02:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, your first name is suspiciously similar to that of alise.
18:26:39 <alise> 02:37:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never seen the two of you in the same place.
18:26:41 <alise> Probably because I hate him.
18:27:04 <alise> Heh, it uses Unicode excessively. Why am I not surprised?
18:27:09 <oerjan> and everyone else trying to leech off your precious name
18:27:52 <alise> Why is it that I never feel comfortable on a Friday before my palms sweat?
18:27:57 <alise> Mysteries of the universe.
18:28:46 <Zuu> No one tried my language yet?
18:29:10 <Zuu> my RegexPL language
18:29:26 <alise> oerjan: er what exactly.
18:29:36 <alise> It's truth, though: my hands feel icky until I do.
18:29:41 <Zuu> oklopol: Regular Expression Programming Language :P
18:30:27 <oklopol> alise: that's a weird thing to not feel comfortable before happening
18:31:24 <Zuu> oklopol: i've described it here: http://zuu.dk/regexpl.php
18:31:32 <alise> Probably it's some crazy psychological washing the unit off or somet</Freud>
18:31:57 <alise> "the virtual home" What, that website is not a physical establishment?
18:32:28 <Zuu> I dont know if someone else have made something remotely similar, but it is a quite different way of performing computation than soo many other programming languages
18:32:46 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Norway's coastline has a Hausdorff dimension of 1.52 <-- how do you compute that?
18:32:52 <alise> So; I thought I was getting next week off. I am not.
18:32:53 <Zuu> alise: yeah :P
18:33:18 <alise> I thought that, at least, I would get sufficient time to meet up with some friends; even though some couldn't make it it would still be better than nothing. Nope; I don't have any two days off in a row.
18:33:28 <alise> Here is the ludicrous schedule for next week:
18:33:35 <alise> Monday -- bank holiday
18:33:41 <alise> Tuesday -- come in on the afternoon, IIRC, as day patient
18:33:50 <alise> Thursday -- come in /and then sleep as an inpatient/
18:33:59 <alise> Friday -- leave at 10:30, making the sleeping utterly pointless.
18:34:25 <alise> I may just stop bothering to make sense of anything, and go crazy.
18:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If bureaucracy had a point, it would be something else.
18:35:20 <alise> It's more like a dictatorship in this instance.
18:35:29 <alise> They get sexual pleasure from authority, I think.
18:35:33 <alise> It is the only way to explain their actions.
18:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who wants to be in a position of power is almost certainly unfit to hold it.
18:37:43 <alise> The unit is a wonderful collision of all sorts of incompetency.
18:38:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
18:38:40 <alise> Extreme power, bad psychology & psychiatry (which is, I might add, almost entirely all of it: this isn't some fringe unit, this is part of the national health service), ...
18:39:19 * Phantom_Hoover impulsively wants to calculate the dimensions of the Rorschach inkblots
18:39:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Imagine a tiny, tiny boarding school (no homosexuality tho) that teaches far, far below your intelligence. Imagine it has "group time" in-between lessons, of which there are only two in a day, and are almost always taught by the same person. Now imagine you can't have a computer or a mobile.
18:39:50 <alise> Add a dash of patronisation and bullshit psychology --
18:40:16 <alise> -- and various threats to force you to go there like the Mental Health Act and in my case even being threatened with being fostered if my mother doesn't make me attend --
18:40:20 <alise> and you end up with the unit.
18:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> If you don't know anything about neural networks I will have to start taking my frustration on family members.
18:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And patronisation pervades everyone claiming to be trying to help you.
18:47:41 -!- Oranjer has joined.
18:48:30 <Oranjer> jer being the first three letters of my name
18:49:37 <Oranjer> besides, orange is more orange than oranges, you know that
18:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, but orange was named after oranges, so oranges are the orange against which all other orange is measures.
18:51:55 <Oranjer> the concept has evolved away from its namesake
18:52:16 <Oranjer> now we have other orange things to measure orange with
18:53:46 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them derives directly from oranges; the other is generally brown from abuse.
19:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/images/f/f7/Capture_eb416eade6d81876a512df8d3dcb298b2c2f540b.png From the guy who brought you the Richard Dawkins Project
19:05:03 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Aschlafly#Considering_An_Open_Letter_to_Richard_Dawkins_at_Conservapedia <-- More insane
19:22:31 <alise> Concrete Roman si a strange, but likeable, font.
19:26:33 <Oranjer> hey now, appearance of information is quite important
19:27:10 <alise> Also, liking a font is being a typography nerd now? Boy, as a typography nerd, can I just say that I am sorely upset at the dumbing-down of its requirements.
19:27:20 <alise> Also, what?! AMS Euler doesn't have bold?
19:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> No, you've previously demonstrated dangerous typographical urges!
19:29:39 <alise> Something wrong with typography? :-)
19:30:35 <pikhq> Only an EVIL person would use something other than Microsoft Word!
19:31:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Typography is the granddaddy of both (good) design, information presentation, and interfaces.
19:32:39 <alise> I like how Concrete Roman makes your document look like it was typed out on a typewriter, except it still looks typographically good.
19:33:02 <pikhq> alise: That's quite a feat.
19:33:10 <alise> Well, this is Knuth we're talking about...
19:33:33 <pikhq> Oh, right, it is Knuth.
19:33:59 <pikhq> A guy who went on sabbatical to learn how to do typography right so he could teach a computer how to do it right. :)
19:35:02 <alise> Anyway, so I noticed that the (a,b)-representing-(a-b) construction of Z and the (a,b)-representing-(a/b) construction of Q are very, very similar.
19:35:11 <alise> In fact, they are the same transformation -- on N and Z, respectively!
19:35:31 <alise> Consider a set S and a binary operation * : (S,S) -> S with identity element e.
19:35:46 <alise> (a,b) ~ (c,d) = (a*b = c*d)
19:35:52 <alise> (a,b) *' (c,d) = (a*b, c*d)
19:36:08 <alise> Er, wait, that one is wrong.
19:36:13 <alise> (a,b) *' (c,d) = (a*c, b*d)
19:36:19 <alise> (a,b) *i (c,d) = (a*d, b*c)
19:36:48 <alise> Then we have *' being the analogy to * and *i the inversion.
19:42:36 <alise> Is this a well-known transformation? It must be; it's so trivial.
19:44:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:45:33 <alise> Dilemma when using a significantly different body and mathematics font: To follow, or not, the standard punctuation rule of putting punctuation in the end of quotes, instead of outside them, or not.
19:46:05 <alise> Things usually flow better if you put the punctuation inside the mathematics, but for "." this is not so; the "." in mathematical fonts are usually much thicker and bolder than those in text fonts, so things look a bit strange.
19:48:01 * alise puts all punctuation inside apart from "." for now. But that seems so strange.
19:48:55 <Oranjer> well, I heard that you know someone's a programmer if they put punctuation on the outside in writing
19:49:08 <pikhq> Oranjer: ... Or British.
19:49:45 <alise> pikhq: I must admit I find myself putting some punctuation on the inside.
19:50:11 <alise> Having a seeming "space" between the space where the quote mark is (which are so high up they're "invisible" in a way) and the punctuation.
19:50:40 <alise> Anyway, just in case nobody's written about this transformation before (p ~= 0), I am hereby the first: http://filebin.ca/owxsdu/extend.pdf
19:51:02 <alise> And yes, I just did that for the very remote possibility it's not a known thing.
19:51:02 <pikhq> alise: You realise that the only reason why punctuation ends up inside is that the quote mark slugs where small, right? :P
19:51:32 <alise> pikhq: Well, a lot of things are silly.
19:51:40 <alise> "ou" spellings are a hypercorrection, for instance.
19:52:31 <alise> For mathematical fonts it's different.
19:52:44 <alise> Since you have a mathematical-font character and then a jarring differently-styled punctuation mark right after.
19:55:21 <alise> pikhq: Anyway -- "According to the Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Copy-editors and Proofreaders, periods and commas that are part of the persons speech are permitted inside the quotation marks regardless."
19:55:29 <alise> Which covers most instances such as, say, speech.
19:57:51 <alise> I like Middle English.
19:58:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:00:07 <alise> Hey, does anyone want to tell me how Lost ended? I don't know a fucking thing about it, so this should be fun.
20:00:22 <alise> Well, I know a thing or two.
20:00:48 <alise> :PO; what species are you exactly?
20:01:15 <alise> [[The flash sideways is revealed to be a type of purgatory for the main characters, where they reside until accepting their life and death, and are then able to "let go" and "move on."]]
20:01:25 <alise> Wait a second... that was the ending of Ashes to Ashes, too.
20:01:34 <alise> Must. Create. Conspiracy. Theory...
20:01:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:06:53 <Sgeo> alise, I want to make a rap involving certain differences in programming languages
20:07:42 <Sgeo> At first, I thought maybe on the subtle differences in assignment, but I think equality and identity comparision might be more useful, because those tend to vary more widely and insanely
20:08:15 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:08:37 <alise> Sgeo: you're insane.
20:08:50 <alise> And you know you're really insane, because I'm insane, and even I think (sanely) that you're insane.
20:08:51 <cheater99> it is parametrized, how do i decide what setup cost i should be using? i understand it is dictated by the hardware the attacker might be using
20:08:59 <alise> cheater99: are you hashing passwords?
20:09:05 <Sgeo> It's not going to have all languages
20:09:06 <alise> cheater99: use bcrypt
20:09:18 <Sgeo> It probably needs to include PHP though, which I know nothing about
20:09:27 <cheater99> but i don't know what complexity to use
20:09:40 <alise> cheater99: well, is this an irc server or a bank?
20:09:52 <alise> btw, it's not Blowfish that's parameterised; it's bcrypt.
20:10:01 <alise> Anyway, the default for at least the Python library is 12, but you can get away with a lot more than that.
20:10:18 <alise> cheater99: Just pick a big value such that making it much bigger would make password hashing take an unreasonable amount of time.
20:10:25 <alise> Sure, this will be excessive, but it's not like that's harmful.
20:10:31 <cheater99> but how do i know if it's good or not?
20:10:54 <alise> It's ridiculously secure so even low values like 12 should be good.
20:10:58 <cheater99> i don't want 2 people logging in at the same time to take down the server.
20:11:03 <alise> But if I were in charge of a bank I'd go higher.
20:11:15 <alise> cheater99: Then experiment with values until it's fast.
20:11:25 <alise> http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bcrypt-paper.ps is the paper; maybe it has some suggestions.
20:11:27 <cheater99> but then it might not be secure enough.
20:12:18 <pikhq> How likely do you figure are people to spend thousands of computer-years trying to crack a single password?
20:12:27 <alise> cheater99: why not? What OS?
20:12:42 <alise> If Windows, I don't know; Google it or something. If Linux, yes you can. If OS X, yes you can.
20:12:46 <alise> If phone, get a computer :-)
20:12:56 <alise> (Or if it's an iPhone, I think you can still; I know it does PDFs.)
20:13:31 <cheater99> alise: linux on gprs and no software to read ps
20:14:16 <cheater99> pikhq, i need to understand what complexity takes how long to break a password
20:14:33 <alise> cheater99: gprs -- so mobile.
20:14:34 <pikhq> cheater99: You're scaling between hundreds of years and millions of years.
20:14:39 <alise> Or, just bad mobile internet.
20:14:45 <alise> cheater99: do you have xpdf? Evince?
20:15:32 <cheater99> pikhq, what is a reputable source that quotes those numbers?
20:15:41 <cheater99> and what year was that estimation made?
20:16:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's called a rhetorical question.
20:16:31 <pikhq> alise: Perhaps you could ps2ascii for him?
20:18:16 <alise> || || /` | | /~~\ ||
20:18:17 <alise> ||==|| | ~\ | | | |
20:18:17 <alise> || || \___ |, |, \~~/ **
20:18:48 <pikhq> Holy fuck that sucks.
20:18:58 <cheater99> how do i make the connection of complexity <-> number of years required to crack
20:19:41 <alise> pikhq: no, I did that manually :D
20:19:53 <alise> I thought it was quite good thank you very much!
20:20:03 <alise> cheater99: magic; anyway, I think the paper has a sum
20:20:44 <Sgeo> I'm hallucinating. I thought I heard my computer beep lightly, but the sound's all the way down, and no one pinged me on IRC or anything
20:21:27 <alise> Sgeo: I do that often.
20:23:32 <alise> It irritates me that there aren't any really good mathematical fonts.
20:23:51 <alise> Let me guess; Computer Modern?
20:24:02 <alise> But it's Didone, for heaven's sake!
20:24:18 <alise> Congratulations; you don't know what a font is.
20:24:34 <alise> Please go to your nearest euthanisation booth.
20:24:45 <alise> Do you even know what TeX /is/? Or what Computer Modern is?
20:24:59 <alise> Replying to "[request for font]" with "TeX" makes no sense!
20:25:14 <alise> Presumably you mean TeX's /default/ font -- which is ABSOLUTELY changeable -- Computer Modern!
20:25:26 <alise> Which I already preempted and responded to: <alise> But it's Didone, for heaven's sake!
20:26:08 <alise> I have my grievances with TeX-the-typesetting-system too, but that's neither here nor there.
20:26:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's ghastly.
20:26:30 <alise> Computer Modern is admittedly one of the better specimens of Didonicity.
20:26:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why does shit stink?
20:26:43 <alise> Because it's stinky.
20:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a font! It specifies a way for symbols to be displayed on the screen!
20:26:57 <alise> No, actually, it's a typeface.
20:27:11 <alise> And it specifies some constraints with parameters on abstract glyphs.
20:27:38 <alise> Computer Modern's sans variation, for instance, is produced merely by setting the relevant serif-controlling parameters of Computer Modern to zero.
20:27:46 <alise> Similar with the bold font, etc.
20:27:54 <alise> Not sure about the italic font.
20:28:36 <alise> Because for a font F, Didonicity(F) is almost exactly equal to Fugly(F).
20:28:54 <alise> Sometimes there is a very large value of DesignerWithGoodTaste(F) which outweighs this; the only known example is Computer Modern.
20:29:10 <cheater99> alise, computer modern is a family of typefaces
20:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, I never thought I'd *ever* be having a heated discussion over this.
20:29:21 <alise> cheater99: Okay, okay, you win the pedant war. :)
20:29:30 <alise> But you don't win the MORAL HIGH-GROUND!
20:29:53 <cheater99> i didn't intend to - i enjoy being immoral
20:30:02 <cheater99> now explain this complexity parameter to me
20:30:12 <alise> cheater99: No, vagrant.
20:30:23 <alise> DIE: The moral high-ground
20:30:27 <cheater99> alise, that's King Vagrant for you
20:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's typesetting! You make words and stuff, it appears on the screen! Morals don't come into it!
20:31:25 <alise> "Typesetting/typography -- it's about words and stuff."
20:31:30 <alise> I hate you for saying that!
20:31:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:32:08 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.3738 \ wunderbar_emporium
20:32:13 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
20:33:25 <cheater99> alise, besides, you lose any moral ground since you're by default on the wrong end of the antiqua-fraktur dispute
20:33:42 <HackEgo> \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Alert!: Unable to connect to remote host. \ \ lynx: Can't access startfile http://google.com/search?q=define:%2d%2d%68%65%6c%70
20:33:45 <alise> cheater99: You /like/ Fraktur?
20:34:01 <cheater99> i don't read german books in latin script
20:34:18 <alise> cheater99: Yes, I can quote too.
20:34:28 <alise> cheater99: More to the point: you /like/ German?
20:34:37 <pikhq> cheater99: Yes you do. Unless you write German in runes?
20:35:55 <alise> pikhq: Now now, we both know what that quote means.
20:36:18 <alise> (If you don't: Latin Antiqua script vs. German Fraktur script dispute.)
20:36:49 <alise> Fraktur, note, is ugly except in very specific circumstances.
20:37:00 <pikhq> Fraktur is such a pain to read.
20:37:12 <alise> Certainly I'd rather read a book in Antiqua than Fraktur no matter what the language; Fraktur basically embodies hostility to the reader -- "you cannot read this".
20:37:31 <alise> It is almost as if it is intentionally designed such that only the sufficiently patient and determined can make sense of its forms.
20:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: German: POWER.
20:38:05 <pikhq> alise: Grass script is worse. (note: only relevant for Chinese characters)
20:38:27 * alise looks that up. Ow.
20:38:36 <pikhq> Japanese uses Chinese characters as well.
20:38:52 <alise> Should be called "fuck you script".
20:39:32 <pikhq> Fortunately, it's only used for calligraphy, not for writing...
20:39:47 <pikhq> (because *nobody can freaking read it*)
20:40:19 <alise> Calligraphy irritates me some.
20:40:40 <pikhq> Chinese calligraphy is quite nice when it's not grass script.
20:41:01 <pikhq> (semicursive script and regular script are nice. Mmm.)
20:41:03 <cheater99> fraktur is so easy to learn and quite beautiful to behold
20:41:40 <cheater99> unless you expect to be able to read cyrillic off the bat without having actually been taught
20:42:18 <pikhq> But Fraktur is nominally *the same damned script*. It's just a very hard to read rendering thereof!
20:42:19 <alise> It's not beautiful. It's pretty much the opposite of beautiful: pointless flourish and agonising at times, painfully fractured (how appropriate) the rest.
20:42:39 <alise> It's not easy to read; no way can you read it as fluidly as Antiqua-descendants.
20:43:01 <alise> Anyway, I'm quite uninterested in the opinion of anyone who likes Fraktur; even if it's an opinion about Fraktur.
20:43:30 <cheater99> fraktur is as similar to antiqua as greek is similar to orthodox cyrillic
20:43:45 <pikhq> cheater99: Failure.
20:44:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, Fraktur is a style of Roman script. As is Antiqua.
20:45:03 <pikhq> cheater99: Linguistics failure.
20:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99: Yes they are. They both use Latin characters.
20:45:33 <pikhq> Anyone who uses a Roman script will be able to recognise Fraktus as a very ornate rendering of Roman script.
20:45:43 <pikhq> s/Fraktus/Fraktur/
20:46:16 <pikhq> Heck, it's closer to Antiqua than handwritten cursive is.
20:47:16 <pikhq> Now, you want an authentically German script? Learn runes.
20:49:23 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover, they use roman characters... there's no such thing as latin characters.
20:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, according to WP "Latin" and "Roman" are interchangeable.
20:51:30 <pikhq> cheater99: "Not really" what?
20:51:51 <pikhq> Those are a script legitimately meant for Germanic languages.
20:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're saying that the Roman characters were reinvented for Germanic languages?
20:59:29 <alise> Egyptienne is a nice slab serif.
21:00:33 <cheater99> and a Latin Script is a script used for that language
21:00:45 <pikhq> *Failure*, cheater99.
21:00:47 <cheater99> and Fraktur has never been used for Latin books
21:01:20 <cheater99> pikhq, that didn't have the effect you desired the first time around, and it won't even if you hammer it a thousand times
21:01:27 <cheater99> it might have a different effect though!
21:01:29 <pikhq> cheater99: It's still true!
21:02:09 <pikhq> Your statements are so bloody ignorant it makes my brain bleed!
21:02:40 <pikhq> The Latin script, more commonly called the Roman script, is the script originally developed for use in Latin, and later adapted to a *large* number of languages.
21:03:06 <pikhq> It has had many, many different stylistic variants, simply because it has been in use for a couple millenia now.
21:03:20 <cheater99> are you copypasting that from anyone-can-contribute-pedia?
21:03:51 <pikhq> I don't have HTTP access ATM.
21:04:30 <pikhq> You, sir, are an idiot, who needs to learn more about linguistics before talking about writing systems.
21:04:41 <pikhq> Pity our resident linguist isn't around ATM.
21:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99: Actually refute what he's saying, rather than accusing him of getting it off WP.
21:05:37 <cheater99> i absolutely do not care enough for this to happen
21:05:52 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is... You're a troll?
21:06:31 <cheater99> no, what i'm saying is i had an interesting conversation with alise and you came in with your boring interjections and spoiled it
21:07:05 <alise> Can I hate both of you?
21:07:34 <pikhq> alise: Please, do. I have precious few enemies of late. It makes life more interesting to have good enemies.
21:07:53 <alise> pikhq: Though, note that you too have the obligation to provide references.
21:08:04 <pikhq> alise: I am incapable of doing so ATM.
21:08:12 <alise> Then chill a bit :)
21:08:23 <pikhq> So. ([Pikhq's Memory])
21:08:26 <pikhq> There's my citation.
21:08:31 <alise> Shit, my life ranks pretty damn high on the shitty scales and even I'm chilling right now.
21:08:44 <pikhq> alise: You think I'm worked up?
21:09:07 <alise> Well, perhaps not; but your text was.
21:09:20 <pikhq> I have a serious problem with that.
21:09:29 <alise> I noticed. I do too
21:09:30 <cheater99> want 2 talk about what's putting you down?
21:09:42 <pikhq> My discussions can get significantly more inflammatory than they are meant to be.
21:09:42 <alise> cheater99: If you're in here you should know :-)
21:09:55 <cheater99> alise: i am only here periodically
21:10:08 <cheater99> alise: but i care for this channel, fill me in
21:10:28 <alise> cheater99: Suffice to say that I'm falsely forced to be in a bureaucratic children's mental institution Monday to Friday that is basically a relic of the 60s; and to a large degree I'm treat like a 7-year-old there.
21:10:42 <pikhq> cheater99: HEY I NEVER APOLIGISED! (j/k)
21:10:49 <alise> When I have tried to protest by not attending they first threatened to invoke the Mental Health act on me; then, they threatened (to my mother) to put me into foster care.
21:10:59 <alise> My life is shitty; discuss.
21:11:32 <alise> Also I'm male; this name is a long story
21:11:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They think I'm crazy
21:11:47 <alise> If you want something more specific ask more specifically :P
21:11:52 <cheater99> alise: every time i see your nickname i think of the gif of alisee waving her hips
21:11:59 <cheater99> but the version with a huge penis stuck on
21:12:21 <alise> cheater99: Good to know, good to know.
21:12:27 <cheater99> alise: if i were you i would be really nice to your mom and ask her to put you in a better place than tht
21:12:41 <alise> cheater99: My mother isn't the one doing it! She's sane enough to hate it too.
21:12:57 <alise> When she cooperated with my not attending, they told her that if she didn't force me to attend they'd put me in foster care.
21:13:14 <alise> cheater99: The Over-Arching Happy Fun State of Great Britain; specifically the "National 'Health' Service" division.
21:13:56 <alise> cheater99: they think I'm crazy
21:14:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because they looked at me and decided in their expert opinion that i am crazy
21:14:08 <pikhq> cheater99: The Queen in Right of Britain seems to like enabling power trips.
21:14:14 <alise> It's as much a puzzle to me as it is to you.
21:14:23 <pikhq> (not: The Queen in Right of Britain is a quite distinct entity from Her Majesty)
21:14:42 <alise> cheater99: That's quite a long story & one I'd rather not go in to, least of all because it isn't entirely to do with me.
21:14:57 <alise> They had no prior reason to believe I was crazy, though.
21:15:06 <cheater99> alise: so can your mom put you in a different place?
21:15:28 <pikhq> cheater99: No, but they can expatriate.
21:15:46 <cheater99> expatriate meaning move out of britain?
21:16:23 <pikhq> Yes, that is what happens when one expatriates from a country in Great Britain.
21:16:48 <pikhq> Though typically someone who wishes to expatriate would like to leave the UK, not just one of England, Scotland, or Wales.
21:17:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not really.
21:17:10 <alise> Not unless I've committed a crime.
21:17:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No; it's the NHS.
21:17:35 <alise> I am pretty sure I am not on any terrorist watch lists
21:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Workers of the NHS have often prevented me from leaving the country.
21:17:51 <alise> & I am also pretty sure that they would not have the foresight to preemptively block a completely unexpected flight.
21:17:53 <pikhq> They have the power to declare someone in their care in need of hospitalisation.
21:17:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
21:18:19 <pikhq> They do not have the power to declare someone in another nation in need of hospitalisation.
21:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my parents have never let me leave the country without me, so...
21:18:48 <Sgeo> I'd have trouble leaving without me too
21:18:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Cheesy.
21:18:53 <Sgeo> ALso, curse your s//
21:19:24 <alise> Anyway what they say I have is OCD & some high-functioning autism spectrum disorder.
21:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> (They don't work for the psychiatric bits, so I'm not fraternising with the enemy)
21:19:39 <alise> I will accept that I have aspects of both but together they are two labels too strong.
21:19:47 <Sgeo> alise, that's a reason to effectively lock you up WHY?
21:19:54 <alise> I also definitely reject that I need to be sleeping in an institution all week.
21:19:59 <pikhq> The irony being that all their treatments are likely to make either one *worse*.
21:19:59 <alise> That's the most crazy thing.
21:20:11 <alise> The only sane response even if I /did/ have those disorders would be to treat me at home!
21:20:19 <alise> Putting me in an institution is an unacceptable response.
21:20:33 <alise> Oh, did I mention I'm not allowed any internet connection?
21:20:40 <Sgeo> alise, I think socializing might be an important part, though
21:20:43 <Sgeo> So maybe that's the goal?
21:20:45 <alise> The only time you're allowed to use the internet is on the well-monitored, filtered-to-shit school computers.
21:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Ah, but you might arrange things and not talk to people *online*
21:20:55 <alise> Sgeo: Socialising? You can't even go out without a trip of some sort being planned.
21:21:02 <alise> And I have no access to the internet...
21:21:08 <alise> So I could only socialise with the very few people at the unit.
21:21:15 <alise> Whoop de doo, I am newly integrated into society
21:21:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Autism != not talking to people.
21:21:45 * pikhq , being autistic, would know
21:21:54 <alise> Anyway if they knew anything about Asperger's-ish syndromes they'd know that taking one away from their "obsession" (which any right-thinking person working under the assumption that I had Asperger's would definitely deduce to be computers) is psychologically traumatic.
21:22:01 <alise> So they're fucking retards any way you cut it.
21:22:03 <Sgeo> Not all autistic people understand autism *looks selfwards*
21:22:08 <pikhq> alise: No fucking shit.
21:22:13 <alise> Not to mention that even if all this was the "right" thing to do... it violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
21:22:17 <alise> Sgeo: I don't believe you have autism.
21:22:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, almost everyone.
21:22:30 <alise> Asperger's, well, no.
21:22:35 <Sgeo> alise, well, Asperger's, according to a doctor a while ago, according to my dad
21:22:44 <alise> Asperger's syndrome is SO BROADLY DEFINED that /anyone/ of a nerdy disposition has it.
21:22:52 <alise> And even a lot of people /without/ such a disposition.
21:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC Aspergers and autism don't have well-defined boundaries
21:23:04 <alise> It's a useless label -- it refers to /nothing/.
21:23:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Autism is very well-defined, and very noticeable.
21:23:19 <pikhq> Asperger's is soon to cease being a diagnosis.
21:23:22 <alise> Asperger's nowadays means nothing.
21:23:28 <alise> pikhq: Yes; they're removing it from the DSM, aren't they?
21:23:31 <alise> Of course, the DSM is a pile of shit.
21:23:44 <Sgeo> So soon I will be just "autistic"?
21:23:51 <alise> Sgeo: Soon you will just be nothing.
21:23:55 <alise> Your diagnosis was almost certainly wrong.
21:24:07 <Sgeo> alise, you've only ever known me online
21:24:07 <pikhq> But when even the DSM thinks some diagnosis is a stupid piece of shit, you can be pretty sure it's a stupid piece of shit. :P
21:24:10 <alise> You're an antisocial nerd; nothing wrong with that.
21:24:16 <alise> Sgeo: If you were autistic... We'd know.
21:24:47 <pikhq> (zzo38 is fucking obvious, though. I mean damn.)
21:24:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What are you trying to say?
21:24:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ...
21:25:00 <alise> pikhq: I'd say you have pretty mild autism, based solely on your IRC persona.
21:25:09 <Sgeo> My dad kept emphasizing "mild"
21:25:12 <alise> Also, zzo38 is a most wonderfulest person.
21:25:18 <pikhq> alise: Mild, but noticable, yes.
21:25:27 <alise> Sgeo: Mild Asperger's? Asperger's is already so mild as to be more a block of nothing than cheese!
21:25:38 <pikhq> My IRC persona is pretty much the same as my IRL persona.
21:25:50 <pikhq> Yes, even including pedantic usage of language.
21:25:55 <alise> pikhq: In which case, meeting you would be awesome.
21:26:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:27:01 <alise> he suffered from extreme self-awareness
21:27:05 <alise> He, himself, was a neural net.
21:27:59 <Sgeo> alise, remember how you said I shouldn't work on this project unless I'm getting paid, or think it's incredibly incredibly important, or (forgot what the third condition was)?
21:28:25 <alise> You're hypothetically getting paid, I assume?
21:28:29 <Sgeo> I figure that I will get paid in attention
21:28:48 <alise> Then you'd be the profit's kind suffixed by "whore".
21:29:05 <Sgeo> Is there anyone who isn't?
21:29:22 <AnMaster> hm what is normal harddrive temperatures?
21:29:26 <Sgeo> My introductory speech for my speech class was how attention-seeking isn't inherently a bad thing
21:30:51 <oklopol> "except it still looks typographically good" <<< you mean typographically non-monospacedly crappy?
21:30:52 <alise> Sgeo: I'm not an attention whore, I don't think. Just an attention slut.
21:31:01 <alise> I knew oklopol would come in <3
21:31:15 <alise> oklopol: you'd like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Roman it's like it's monospaced
21:31:20 <alise> but it also appeases typonerds like myself.
21:31:26 <Sgeo> Hm, what's the difference, exactly?
21:31:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Look up the specs for your model. Typically up to around 50 is fine, I think.
21:31:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, well that is a given if it was alise that said it
21:32:30 <alise> AnMaster: Firstly, shut up.
21:32:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah good idea. And yeah 31 C should be fine considering the indoor temp. It went to 39 C the day it was 27 C inside. And today it is about 18 C.
21:32:46 <alise> Secondly, it was a product of Knuth; conflicting raging-AnMaster-opinions alert.
21:32:58 <alise> Sgeo: slut is slightly less severe :-)
21:33:09 <oklopol> alise: of course N->Z and Z->Q are the same thing, you're adding inverses to an operation lacking them (it's possible i haven't explicitly realized this tho)
21:33:10 <pikhq> alise: My God, I want Concrete Roman as a terminal font.
21:33:22 <AnMaster> alise, it was something you could have said though
21:33:34 <alise> oklopol: yeah but the point is that you can do it "automagically"
21:33:48 <alise> and it always comes out as tuples (a,b) representing op_inv(a,b)
21:34:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:34:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm... Non-monospace would be a pain in a terminal
21:35:26 <alise> Only in a shitty Unix terminal.
21:35:33 <alise> Also, I use a serifed font for IRC.
21:36:10 <AnMaster> alise, how does the listing in "/msg nickserv help" (without quotes, duh) look to you?
21:36:32 <AnMaster> presumably the second column is not very well aligned though?
21:36:36 <alise> It doesn't have to be aligned to see what the commands do; and how often do you look at nickserv help?
21:36:39 <alise> Far more often I talk.
21:36:46 <alise> mycroftiv: No, it's great because it looks ridiculous
21:37:01 <alise> I am not authorized to use OperServ. :P
21:37:14 <AnMaster> alise, well duh not on here. But aren't you an oper anywhere?
21:37:18 <alise> "Everything you've learned in life. In five words. GO." ;; if you can answer this, you haven't learned much.
21:37:25 <alise> And I don't want to be.
21:37:27 <AnMaster> alise, I'm kind of surprised in fact.
21:37:48 <alise> Why? You know that #esoteric is about 90% of my IRC usage.
21:38:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:38:28 <Sgeo_> Must... stop... trying.. to.. be.. verbose.. on.. Twitter
21:38:30 <AnMaster> alise, I thought you were in #haskell and various other channels too?
21:38:31 <alise> I'm not sure whether to be flattered or not, then. :P
21:38:37 <alise> Sure, #haskell sometimes.
21:38:39 <alise> Still all Freenode, though.
21:38:48 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> alise: You hate like everyone." <<< she doesn't hate me
21:39:02 <AnMaster> alise, freenode is a large part of my channel list too
21:39:04 <alise> Actually, here's my obligatory five-word summary: "Keep calm and carry on."
21:39:51 <AnMaster> alise, 50% or so from a quick guesstimate based on ocular inspection of the channel list.
21:40:15 <alise> Ocular. Really now.
21:40:43 <alise> I don't even like being an op :-)
21:40:52 <Sgeo_> Grah, removing spaces and punctuation just to fit 140chars hurt my soul
21:40:57 <alise> Usually I'm only an op so that crappy people don't become ops :p
21:41:07 <alise> Sgeo_: So don't use Twitter.
21:41:17 <AnMaster> alise, ocular: [...] 3. Seen by the eye; visual
21:41:18 <Sgeo_> alise, I mostly follow people and bots
21:41:24 <AnMaster> from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ocular
21:41:30 <alise> AnMaster: But come on.
21:41:36 <Sgeo_> alise, a surprisingly large number
21:41:45 <AnMaster> alise, I rather liked the phrase "quick guesstimate based on ocular inspection"
21:41:52 <alise> <oklopol> you're more noise sensitive than the average human?
21:41:56 <Sgeo_> Of course, my secondary account has 104 followers
21:42:07 <alise> I know I am; all my senses are quite a bit sharper than ordinary.
21:42:16 <alise> Which makes me wonder: what is everyone else missing?
21:42:25 <alise> Sgeo_: Why "of course"?
21:42:29 <AnMaster> alise, it sounds so.... hm.... hard to describe it. Not scientific. Not bureaucratic. But something along those directions.
21:42:41 <alise> AnMaster: Verbose?
21:42:42 <Sgeo_> alise, it's a bot, just tweets when a new OOTS is up
21:42:46 <Sgeo_> Far more interesting than I am
21:43:38 <alise> AnMaster: It occurs to me upon this present time that, as I sit at my computer typing on IRC, I should consider a fact; that fact would enlighten the populace of the #esoteric channel, or at least one member of it; and it would be a very good thing to say now; and I must also consider that the identity of that fact should be known as the fact that AnMaster could be the next Dickens.
21:43:41 <AnMaster> alise, plus I seen "ocular inspection" used in a protocol to describe the process of checking a house for water damage.
21:43:58 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is anyone here *not* autistic?" <<< i'm a normal brained healthy boy
21:44:11 <AnMaster> it seemed rather silly. It sounds even sillier in Swedish (which was the language of the protocol): "okulär inspektion"
21:44:25 <alise> Okulr Inspektion would be a kick-ass band/album name
21:44:36 <AnMaster> alise, wonderful statement above
21:44:43 <alise> AnMaster: You'd like Dickens.
21:44:53 <alise> Which also indicates that you have terrible taste.
21:44:55 <AnMaster> alise, hm I read David Copperfield
21:45:03 <alise> I have a feeling I can now ping pikhq to invoke horrible rage upon the name Dickens.
21:45:17 <alise> My sentence there was modelled upon the opening of Great Expectations.
21:45:40 * Sgeo_ has been out of touch with non-Pratchett literature for years
21:45:51 <alise> Dickens is a bit... older than that.
21:45:57 <AnMaster> alise, don't you find writing in various verbose and bureaucratic stylistic styles fun?
21:46:00 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/JapaneseTtypewriter.jpg I cannot even begin to fathom how glad Japanese people must have been to have computers do typesetting.
21:46:19 <pikhq> alise: Dickens' style was hurt quite greatly by being paid by the word.
21:46:23 <Sgeo_> Well, I don't think I've read much fiction outside of Pratchett
21:46:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes but where are the keys
21:46:43 <alise> pikhq: I have an innate dislike of the man himself; he was quite overly sentimental.
21:46:46 <oklopol> alise: it's not monospaced, impossible to read
21:46:53 <ais523> hmm, sorry for not saying anything all day
21:46:56 <ais523> but it's time for me to go home
21:47:04 <Sgeo_> Hm, does Calculus the Easy Way count as fiction
21:47:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:47:14 <alise> His novels seem shallow to me: they're fancies in the land of irrelevancy; disconnected to any experience that we know because they take place in a hackneyed, fake universe.
21:47:19 <Sgeo_> I mean, it's a fictional sto.. the answer's obviously yes, isn't it
21:47:24 <alise> Sgeo_: YES BCUZ LOL CALCULUS IS HARD LOL
21:47:40 <alise> <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes but where are the keys
21:47:44 <alise> Sgeo_: I was imitating an idiot.
21:47:50 <AnMaster> alise, yes that is what I asked about
21:48:13 <AnMaster> alise, I'm unable to spot anything remotely like keys in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/JapaneseTtypewriter.jpg
21:48:36 <Sgeo_> I feel like I haven't learned any math since 7th grade or so
21:48:52 <oklopol> based on oculating my chanlist freenode is 40% of my channelity
21:49:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:50:04 <oklopol> sensitivity to senses is one of those things self-described aspies love
21:50:09 <pikhq_> Anyways. What'd I miss?
21:50:09 <AnMaster> btw, best bureaucratic phrase of all time, which I seem unable to translate to English: "grönfoderomvandlande mjölkproduktionsenhet"
21:50:16 <AnMaster> for those who know Swedish however...
21:50:19 <pikhq_> You move the handle around to select the type slug, and then the machine strikes the slug against the page.
21:50:25 <AnMaster> (btw it means "cow", which is usually "ko" in Swedish)
21:51:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:51:11 <pikhq_> Translate each individual component?
21:51:21 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
21:51:32 <pikhq> Calques are absurdly common in English.
21:51:55 <oklopol> "<alise> who eats dog food" <<< it all tastes almost the same, i've found
21:52:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, something like: "green fodder converting" "milk production unit"
21:52:23 <AnMaster> I'm not sure of "fodder", got it from google translate"
21:52:54 <pikhq> "Fodder" is the *cognate* word.
21:53:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, what the heck does cognate mean?
21:53:25 <pikhq> Same etymological origin.
21:53:43 <oklopol> "<alise> His novels seem shallow to me: they're fancies in the land of irrelevancy; disconnected to any experience that we know because they take place in a hackneyed, fake universe." <<< the less a story has to do with life as we know it, the better it is
21:54:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, this was from a report from some municipality. A journalist I know told me about this. She had to read the report.
21:54:39 <Sgeo_> Ok, why does the Sirius XM app want to directly call phone numbers?
21:54:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, Told me she called the person who wrote it and asked how on earth he thought when he wrote it. He seemed unable to understand why it was an issue.
21:56:01 <Sgeo_> What report is this?
21:56:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:56:28 <oklopol> hi pikhq_ long time no see
21:56:39 <pikhq_> Same etymological origin.
21:56:44 <pikhq_> Examples of cognates are English "gift" and German "gift".
21:56:47 <pikhq_> (the English means "gift". The German means "poison". It apparently developed into "poison" out of a euphemism.)
21:56:53 <pikhq_> Or "royal", "real", "regal", "raj", and a few other words. (we've got cognates for that from every single branch of Indoeuropean in the same language!)
21:57:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, and the journalist in question died a few years ago. So no chance of asking her.
21:57:37 <oklopol> do you have cognates from the finnish "kuninkaallinen"
21:57:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:58:18 <oklopol> except i guess cognate isn't about that
21:58:24 <pikhq_> oklopol: "Close" doesn't necessarily mean "not cognate".
21:58:31 <pikhq_> "Cow" and "bovine" are cognate.
21:58:36 <oklopol> yes this i realized before i even said what i said
21:58:56 <pikhq_> They were the same word in Proto-indoeuropean.
21:59:02 <AnMaster> pikhq_, and what was that word
21:59:10 <AnMaster> it seems kind of hard to see a common part
21:59:22 <pikhq_> AnMaster: Lemme check.
21:59:41 <oklopol> the finnish "lehm" is a pretty good gcd
22:01:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, gcd? as in greatest common divisor?
22:02:32 <pikhq_> Still, there was just a few simple phoneme shifts into "cow" and "bov", and a bunch of odder shifts from there in English...
22:03:26 <pikhq_> There's a very, very large number of cognates in English with a different English word, simply because we've got a lot of vocab from two major branches of Indoeuropean.
22:04:02 <alise> <oklopol> "<alise> His novels seem shallow to me: they're fancies in the land of irrelevancy; disconnected to any experience that we know because they take place in a hackneyed, fake universe." <<< the less a story has to do with life as we know it, the better it is
22:04:02 <oklopol> we imagine a tree with words as vertices and children being new cognates of their father, and take the natural meets in this tree
22:04:08 <pikhq_> Oh, and the full list of cognates: "right, rich, raj, regalia, reign, royal, real". All cognate.
22:04:09 <alise> Dickens' stories do not happen in any even imaginable universe.
22:04:55 <alise> <Sgeo_> I feel like I haven't learned any math since 7th grade or so
22:04:57 <oklopol> maybe we should call them royal numbers
22:04:58 <alise> do you really not understand calculus?
22:05:20 <alise> even I understand calculus
22:05:24 <oklopol> you can't "understand" calculus
22:05:33 <Sgeo_> alise, I learned simple calculus concepts in 6th grade, started to gain some actual understanding in 7th
22:05:36 <alise> you have to "see" it for yourself
22:05:37 <Sgeo_> And then I stagnated
22:06:02 <oklopol> that's like saying you "understand" addition; which i guess is perfectly sensible.
22:06:05 <alise> Sgeo_: f'(x) = lim h->0 (f(x+h) - f(x))/h
22:06:08 <alise> Presumably you understand that.
22:06:17 <alise> Calculus is a very simple concept, of course.
22:06:31 <pikhq_> Oh, gah, we've also got cognates from Latin and French and from French and French.
22:06:42 <alise> pikhq_: What about cognates from ENGLISH
22:06:52 <alise> 05:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone opinionated on this tell me what the difference between software and normal patents is?
22:06:56 <Sgeo_> I learned everything I know from Calculus the Easy Way. Things like the quotient rule were not covered
22:06:57 <alise> normal patents are on mechanism
22:07:03 <alise> software patents are usually on abstract algorithms etc
22:07:06 <Sgeo_> We went over it in class once, I completely forgot it by now
22:07:08 <oklopol> what's the quotient rule again
22:07:08 <alise> which are expressly forbidden in normal patents
22:07:11 <Sgeo_> Although I could easily redetermine it
22:07:12 <pikhq_> alise: Define "from English".
22:07:21 <pikhq_> There's not many words native to the language. :D
22:08:03 <pikhq_> alise: Oooh, here's one.
22:08:04 <Sgeo_> Ultimately, it's just chain + multiplication + exponents(which is trivial)
22:08:24 <pikhq_> "Shadow, shade, and shede" are all from Old English sceadu.
22:08:27 <oklopol> the quotient rule is useless to memorize, you can just wp it, and once you learn differentials for functions : R^n -> R^m, you can just always deduce it in your head
22:08:31 <alise> i don't care much about the actual menial-labour side of finding derivatives.
22:08:58 <alise> pikhq_: A shed is a shadowy shade.
22:09:06 <pikhq_> Deewiant: What's knight cognate with?
22:09:35 <Sgeo_> In 6th grade however, I didn't quite understand that 1/x = x^-1
22:09:39 <alise> 06:36:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: software patents have a much longer timespan relative to the length of time the thing they implement remains useful for, than hardware patents
22:09:40 <alise> 06:37:04 <ais523> a 50-year-old internal combustion engine might be outmoded nowadays, but it's still potentially useful
22:09:40 <alise> 06:37:11 <ais523> 50-year-old software is basically useless
22:09:40 <alise> 06:37:27 <ais523> so the idea of patents - to give people a limited monopoly in return for disclosing how the thing works - is subverted
22:09:41 <alise> 06:37:42 <ais523> especially as software patents tend not even to disclose how the things works nowadays
22:09:43 <alise> 06:37:50 <ais523> old inventions, the idea was you could reproduce the whole thing from the patent
22:09:43 <cheater99> tldr: alise is assburgers and gets canned in for being an evil person who plots how to explode people's hearts by dividing big numbers in his head
22:09:45 <alise> 06:38:15 <ais523> many modern hardware patents have the same problem, tbh
22:09:50 <oklopol> Sgeo_: presumably because they didn't explain that's just a definition
22:09:58 <Sgeo_> This hindered my efforts to find an ideal solution to my class's "Star Lottery"
22:10:08 <alise> cheater99: yes... except i'm not assburgers any more than anyone else in here is, and I'm useless at mental arithmetic
22:10:21 <Sgeo_> I tried working it out in 7th grade, but when I tried to determine the equation that I needed to differentiate... it was 0
22:10:30 <alise> i think it's mainly their ocd diagnosis they care about, neither ocd nor aspergers warrant being an inpatient though
22:10:38 <oklopol> Sgeo_: tried working what out?
22:10:47 <Sgeo_> There was a "star lottery"
22:10:51 <cheater99> alise: that's what you think. in fact you are only a fractional-consciousness of a bigger, more evil mind
22:10:52 <Sgeo_> The class's currency was stars
22:11:18 <Sgeo_> Every day or week, I forgot which, the students would put in a number of stars, to get a chance of winning all the stars put in
22:11:24 <cheater99> alise: the one way out for you that i see is to become a t-girl, get a hormone therapy and implants, and sue anyone who treats you how you don't want 'em to
22:11:46 <alise> cheater99: That's a brilliant solution! Or, maybe I will just move country.
22:11:52 <alise> Instead of moving towards cuntry.
22:11:59 <pikhq_> alise: Being OCD warrants being a not-inpateint, in fact. :)
22:12:06 <cheater99> alise, i moved out of the uk for good reason
22:12:13 <alise> cheater99: Where do you live now?
22:12:21 <alise> oklopol: why thank you. Somehow I think you're being sarcastic :p
22:12:25 <cheater99> there's a fucking depression there and there is absolutely no outlook for people who want to succeed
22:12:34 <oklopol> alise: i don't know whether i am
22:12:47 <alise> cheater99: Oh, not China.
22:12:52 <pikhq_> China's probably a bad idea.
22:12:52 <alise> Have /some/ principles!
22:12:58 <cheater99> my biggest hang-up is that i'm not that into asian women
22:13:10 <alise> I'm probably destined for the EU.
22:13:15 <oklopol> asian women are small and make squeaky noises when you fuck them
22:13:20 <alise> Easy to migrate to, and, well, most of the nice countries are there.
22:13:24 <alise> Considering some Nordic country.
22:13:25 <oklopol> the only problem with them is you can't see their genitals
22:13:25 <pikhq_> Except for Hong Kong; I could probably *manage* to live there.
22:13:27 <cheater99> alise: yes, you should come to germany with me
22:13:32 <oklopol> but usually you wouldn't anyway during sex
22:13:37 <alise> oklopol: hahaha i love you
22:13:51 <alise> cheater99: no, you guys like fraktur
22:14:04 <alise> oklopol: you know, mice are also small and make squeaky noises when you fuck them
22:14:07 <alise> you can't see their genitals, either
22:14:11 <alise> are you sure you're not confusing the two?
22:14:30 <cheater99> alise: germany is one of the few places in europe without a fucked up economy OR fucked up government
22:14:33 <pikhq_> alise: Mice don't have pixelation bars over the genitals.
22:14:37 <alise> cheater99: But me likey Nordic countries.
22:14:44 <alise> pikhq_: They do on my hard drive 8)
22:14:51 <oklopol> alise: yeah but they aren't humans, humans make the best sex targets
22:14:58 <cheater99> alise: germany has a lot of nordic appeal to it
22:15:10 <alise> cheater99: Besides, you're all Nazis.
22:15:20 <alise> True, Nordic countries are... on the pricey side.
22:15:23 <alise> cheater99: Shut up.
22:15:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:15:34 <alise> Also, oblig.: You left the UK? GOOD RIDDANCE
22:15:51 <alise> cheater99: does germany have 100mbit interwebs
22:16:10 <pikhq_> alise: If you want 100mbit interwebs, avoid the hell out of the US. :)
22:16:20 <alise> pikhq_: I would do that anyway, sir.
22:16:26 <oklopol> cheater99: no alise said no u
22:16:35 <alise> South Korea is nice.
22:16:47 <alise> If you mean cheater99, never mind; if you mean me: I can't move out of the EU.
22:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it has the problem of being next to North Korea.
22:16:53 <alise> Or rather, I'm not going to.
22:16:55 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: So does Japan.
22:16:57 <alise> Immigration is Hard.
22:17:03 <oklopol> i also heard us people think the sun revolves around the earth and that god exists
22:17:06 <pikhq_> Though that has the problem of having lingering racism.
22:17:12 <cheater99> south korea... umm... hello south korea is in a war with north korea?
22:17:22 <pikhq_> cheater99: As is the US.
22:17:35 <pikhq_> Have been for all of my grandmother's life.
22:17:59 <alise> cheater99: they're not de facto in a war
22:18:12 <alise> South Korea is at about as much risk as China.
22:18:15 <pikhq_> Seoul would get hammered with artillery for a weak.
22:18:25 <alise> North Korea fires at South: Seoul suffers... then North Korea disappears overnight.
22:18:31 <pikhq_> North Korea would cease to support life.
22:18:42 <cheater99> i like spicy food but radioactive isotopes punching through a concrete wall, then my face and finally landing on my tongue is a bit too extreme
22:19:02 <alise> cheater99: North Korea will not fire at South.
22:19:04 <pikhq_> cheater99: North Korea couldn't even get a nuke *beyond Pyongyang* if they tried, y'know.
22:19:21 <pikhq_> (Pyongyang being the capital of North Korea)
22:19:37 <pikhq_> And they've got, what, 0 nukes ATM?
22:19:44 <cheater99> y'all are underestimating human stupidity
22:19:54 <oklopol> can we talk more about derivatives or oriental vaginas?
22:19:58 <pikhq_> Y'all are overestimating North Korea's firepower.
22:20:03 <oklopol> all this politics is going over my head
22:20:16 <alise> fun fact: kim jong-il is not a total idiot
22:20:19 <pikhq_> They've got about a week's worth of artillery.
22:20:22 <cheater99> oklopol, prevent every 2nd word is 'vagina' or 'asian' randomly
22:20:23 <alise> He's evil, yes; evil but smart.
22:20:33 <alise> He would not obliterate his plaything by firing weaponry at Seoul.
22:20:37 <alise> cheater99: Prevent it!
22:20:51 <pikhq_> The only reason we don't just give them the finger is that they *could* make life suck for Seoul.
22:21:45 <alise> cheater99: Anyway, just go to Japan then :P
22:21:57 <pikhq_> It's kinda like MAD, except that one side will lose a city and the other side will lose the ability to live.
22:22:35 <cheater99> i know most hiragana and katakana and know the 'desu' form
22:22:52 <oklopol> cheater99: do you mean i should not use those words as often as i do?
22:22:56 <pikhq_> I highly doubt that your accent is perfect.
22:23:12 <pikhq_> Given that what you know is at most a few day's worth of learning.
22:23:22 <cheater99> oklopol, no, i mean you should replace every second word in our polotics conversation with those words
22:23:27 <pikhq_> How's your pitch stress?
22:23:35 <cheater99> because you want vaginas instead of polotics
22:24:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: because you talked about polish people
22:24:14 <alise> Is biopic pronounced "by opick"? If not, it should be,
22:24:36 <pikhq_> cheater99: Seriously, I *highly* doubt your accent is "perfect". :)
22:24:48 <alise> Good, so it's not "byoh pick".
22:24:53 <cheater99> pikhq_, it's as perfect as it can be
22:24:54 <alise> cheater99: Well, it's bio-graphical pic-ture.
22:25:10 <alise> "By oppik" is nice; the how-you'd-think "Bio pick" is not.
22:25:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See, I don't like that.
22:25:30 <alise> I didn't realise biopic was an abbreviation for "bio pic" at first, so I came to pronounce it as "by oppik".
22:25:40 <pikhq_> Probably don't even get "r" right.
22:25:41 <cheater99> pikhq_, you're comin through as a bad person again
22:26:15 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: A "Japanese accent". He claims to have a perfect accent in Japanese.
22:26:29 <pikhq_> I, having spent several years learning Japanese, doubt this.
22:26:45 <cheater99> the polish accent is very similar to japanese
22:26:54 <pikhq_> cheater99: Hahahahah... No.
22:27:11 <alise> pikhq_: I note that the main part of your seemingly-angry-speak is apparent egotism.
22:27:23 <alise> (Note: I am making this comment as an entirely-detached observer, not an antagonist.)
22:27:47 <pikhq_> alise: I tend to be egotistical about subjects I know a lot about.
22:28:14 <cheater99> alise, i think it's a projection-expectation motivated by low self-esteem which produces expectation of low value in other people
22:28:22 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: is it pikhq_?
22:28:32 <alise> cheater99: Or, he could just be autistic.
22:28:54 <alise> As autistic communication tends to have vastly less emotional content than is usual.
22:29:08 <cheater99> either way, i was told i have a good accent by two different japanese teachers, one who was japanese, the other lived in japan for a couple decades or something like that
22:29:12 <oklopol> what's projection-expectation
22:29:29 <oklopol> i was asked the other day if i used to live in america
22:29:31 <pikhq_> cheater99: Care to record yourself speaking in Japanese for a bit?
22:29:31 <cheater99> oklopol, i explained further in the same line
22:29:54 <oklopol> but the guy who asked was a french guy so i guess that's doesn't say much :D
22:29:57 <pikhq_> Also, I've noticed that Japanese teachers seem to set the bar absurdly low for foreign learners.
22:29:58 <cheater99> *and*, more importantly, i don't care to continue a pointless argument with you
22:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol: Fancy form of "I know you are, but what am I?"
22:30:17 <oklopol> oh and i was asked that because of my accent, i guess that's sort of important
22:30:17 <alise> cheater99: I don't think pikhq_ is actually arguing...
22:30:18 <pikhq_> Stuff like "Oh, you'll only ever learn a few hundred kanji, give up trying to do more".
22:30:43 <alise> cheater99: Strongly disagreeing.
22:31:18 <oklopol> so did you mean "projection -- expectation ..."
22:31:32 <oklopol> or did you mean projection-expectation, and i'm still misunderstanding
22:31:40 <cheater99> no, i meant 'projection-expectation'.
22:32:09 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:32:24 <pikhq_> (seriously, though, "know the desu form"? Congrats, you've spent a couple minutes learning the language! YOU ARE WINNER)
22:32:50 <SgeoN1> I am showing irc to my grandmother
22:33:00 <oklopol> i've learned about a hundred chinese kanji whatever they're called from just watching tv series with subtitles
22:33:43 <pikhq_> (desu is the copula. Japanese has a SOV sentence order. Subjects are followed by "wa" or "ga". CONGRATS, YOU, THE READER, KNOW THE DESU FORM!)
22:34:22 <pikhq_> oklopol: Kanji, hanxi, hanja, chu nom, depending on the language.
22:34:33 <alise> Desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu
22:34:34 <oklopol> pikhq_: actually i'm not even 100% it's chinese
22:34:51 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Copulas in other languages are "is", "estas", "est"...
22:34:57 <oklopol> i call it the language i decided to start learning from subtitles
22:35:00 <pikhq_> oklopol: What language?
22:35:13 <oklopol> there's this streaming place called tudou
22:35:16 <alise> <ais523> and the longer you expose the ASIC wafer to the doping agent, the deeper the p-type or n-type region goes
22:35:21 <alise> "Doping agent" is officially the best name for weed ever.
22:35:34 <alise> "I'm exposing my thinking wafer to the doping agent... maaaan"
22:35:55 <oklopol> "i" is this weird x thing, plural is one of the few characters where density is distributed as |^|
22:35:57 <pikhq_> (note: hanja and chu nom no longer in use as normal orthographies.)
22:36:00 <alise> 12:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, the Koreas are at it again.
22:36:02 <alise> Wait, it started again?
22:36:06 <oklopol> i'm sure you can deduce it from that
22:36:38 <pikhq_> alise: South Korea has accused Chosen of an act of war.
22:36:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No. I could watch the news, I guess, if I went to my room and fought with the tiny television.
22:36:46 <alise> I don't much see the point, though.
22:36:53 <pikhq_> Chosen is responding by preparing for war.
22:37:05 <oklopol> newspapers can be dangerous for your weak mind
22:37:07 <pikhq_> Chosen torpedoed a South Korean vessel.
22:37:53 <alise> pikhq_: So, you made me google Chosen.
22:37:58 <alise> Howsabout we call it North Korea?
22:38:07 <alise> I'll settle for Corea if you're gonna be That Guy :P
22:38:18 <oklopol> "but weekday mom, what is all this violence doing in the world :("
22:38:45 <alise> the interchangability of staff as the shifts wade in and out is actually quite unnerving
22:38:49 <alise> people just disappear and appear.
22:39:05 <cheater99> there's something i never understood in britain
22:39:19 <alise> I see teenagers an awful lot.
22:39:29 <alise> ...But... children... huh, you are right.
22:39:37 <oklopol> cheater99: you have to look down, they're small hahaha
22:39:37 <alise> It's our overprotective culture.
22:39:42 <alise> cheater99: I know that much.
22:39:53 <alise> I'm small and light!
22:39:55 <cheater99> alise: ok, so let's say a 12 year old
22:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, they're never allowed out in case of paedophiles.
22:39:57 <alise> 39 kilos or thereabouts
22:39:57 <pikhq_> alise: Sorry, that's the Japanese coming through.
22:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: this
22:40:08 <cheater99> they get woken up and stay at home until 8 then go to school yes?
22:40:10 <oklopol> i've never seen alise q.e.d.
22:40:16 <cheater99> then they're at school until say 4 pm
22:40:25 <alise> cheater99: PRAYSTATION TREE
22:40:50 <pikhq_> alise: It's normally shortened as 韓国 for South Korea and 朝鮮 for North Korea.
22:40:57 <pikhq_> ("Korea" and "Chosen", translated)
22:41:12 <alise> In the North, Kijong-dong features a number of brightly painted, poured-concrete multi-story buildings and apartments with electric lighting. These features represented an unheard of level of luxury for rural Koreans, north or south, in the 1950s. The town was oriented so that the bright blue roofs and white sides of the buildings would be the most distinguishing features when viewed from the border. However scrutiny with modern telescopic lenses reveals tha
22:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But there unfortunately tend to be other youths outside whenever I doo.
22:41:13 <alise> t the buildings are mere concrete shells lacking window glass or even interior rooms[17][18], with the building lights turned on and off at set times and the empty sidewalks swept by a skeleton crew of caretakers in an effort to preserve the illusion of activity.[19]
22:42:14 <alise> cheater99: it's in the demilitarised zone
22:42:16 <cheater99> it's like that movie with jim carrey
22:42:29 <alise> south korea has one too although people are actually there
22:42:32 <alise> cheater99: truman show
22:42:39 <alise> it's like they're trying to convince each other
22:42:47 <SgeoN1> That was my grandmother typing
22:42:49 <alise> "I know we've agreed not to kill each other here... but my dick is way bigger than yours."
22:42:56 <alise> SgeoN1: I hope your grandmother doesn't see that.
22:43:20 <oklopol> i was wondering why that didn't happen the first time Sgeo_ mentioned what was happening
22:43:28 <oklopol> SgeoN1: have you never been to irc?
22:43:54 <alise> The official position of the North Korean government is that the village contains a 200-family collective farm, serviced by a childcare center, kindergarten, primary and secondary schools, and a hospital.[10] However, observation from the south suggests that the town is actually an uninhabited Potemkin village built at great expense in the 1950s in a propaganda effort to encourage South Korean defection and to house the PRK soldiers manning the extensive net
22:43:54 <alise> work of artillery positions, fortifications and underground marshalling bunkers that abut the border zone.[3][4][11][12] Though no visitors are allowed, it is the only settlement in North Korea within direct eye- and earshot of the Korean DMZ, and by extension, the West.
22:43:56 <SgeoN1> Are you asking me or her?
22:44:17 <cheater99> the german eurovision contestant actually sings well
22:44:36 <alise> german women aren't hot, they're engineered superhumans.
22:44:46 <oklopol> SgeoN1: well i guess i was assuming you didn't want your grandma to see anything dirty, i'm not sure why.
22:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1: Your grandmother is presumably having an apoplectic fit by now.
22:45:00 <cheater99> alise: are you british english, or are you from an immigrant family?
22:45:10 <SgeoN1> Oklopol, she can barely see the screen
22:45:47 <SgeoN1> She's not reading any of this, I'm reading for her
22:45:49 <alise> I'm about as native as they come.
22:46:31 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Meyer-Landrut
22:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> If Sgeo's grandmother knows what loli is I'm more than a little disturbed.
22:46:42 <cheater99> alise: are you like, the kind of british person who wouldn't look out of place spectating polo or tennis or in a gentlemen's club?
22:46:47 <SgeoN1> Well, she want to eat now. I'm saying bye on her behalf
22:46:54 <alise> cheater99: Um. I'm 14.
22:47:03 <cheater99> alise: yeah, but i mean when you grow up
22:47:05 <alise> I look very female though :P
22:47:22 <cheater99> lise: tht's not what i'm asking about
22:47:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I just have long hair and a relatively ambiguous face.
22:47:42 <alise> Always capitalise the first letter of sentences
22:47:43 <oklopol> cheater99: i wouldn't say she's very loli
22:47:51 <cheater99> alise, would you make a good t-girl
22:48:07 <alise> cheater99: You just want me to grow breasts, don't you.
22:48:17 <cheater99> oklopol, you should see her in 'live' broadcasts
22:48:27 <alise> haha I thought by she you meant me
22:48:33 <cheater99> alise: i want you to be a magnificent being
22:48:43 <alise> Creepy level rising.
22:48:56 <oklopol> i've seen alise in live broadcasts
22:49:03 <oklopol> or at least ones recorded just for me
22:49:10 <cheater99> alise: you should totally get on stickam
22:49:29 <oklopol> but it was not for masturbation purposes, it was about music
22:49:30 <alise> oklopol: no you haven't :P
22:49:47 <alise> cheater99: It was me demonstrating my inability to play the theremin
22:49:55 <alise> Also, I am not going on webcam.
22:50:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:50:00 <alise> Clothed or otherwise.
22:50:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:50:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's hard. You won't be able to do it.
22:50:19 <oklopol> i'm gonna play one when i go visit alise
22:50:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:50:27 <cheater99> alise, the key is to maintain relative pitch.. you can't maintain absolute pitch on it
22:50:28 <Sgeo_> When I told her that there are some people who, upon seeing that someone brought their grandmother to IRC, would say dirty things just to be mean, she said she didn't want to talk to that sort of person
22:50:29 <alise> oklopol: I thought I was visiting you
22:50:31 <oklopol> alise is gonna go like WTF DUDE
22:50:56 <Sgeo_> But no, she only knows what I told her of chat, which is very, very, little
22:51:18 <Sgeo_> So she didn't hear anything of lolis, or Tits or GTFO, or any such thing
22:51:29 <alise> Until 2004, massive loudspeakers mounted on several of the buildings continuously delivered DPRK propaganda broadcasts directed towards the south as well as propaganda radio broadcasts across the border.[17] In May 2010, due to the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan, South Korea resumed broadcasting news, western music and programmes comparing the political and economic situations on the two parts of the peninsula.[20]
22:51:38 <cheater99> and i said tits or gtfo to be nice
22:52:02 <oklopol> "<cheater99> alise, the key is to maintain relative pitch.. you can't maintain absolute pitch on it" kinda like you can't sing in absolute pitch
22:52:27 <cheater99> you can sing in absolute pitch *sometimes*
22:52:35 * Sgeo_ wonders if there are good IRC channels for seniors
22:52:46 <alise> there is a list on lemonparty.org
22:52:48 <cheater99> but for this your voice and/or hearing have to be imperfect in very specific ways
22:53:26 <oklopol> cheater99: my point was (you'd know if you'd read my mind) that that's not helpful to alise in any way
22:53:29 <cheater99> actually i don't remember the irc server's domain.. check lemonparty.org for their list of ervers or something
22:53:42 <cheater99> oklopol, that totally didn't come through
22:53:51 <oklopol> well i didn't say anything related to it
22:54:19 <oklopol> i have my own ways of communicating and people seem to love them
22:54:30 <alise> for some reason I'm flattered that cheater99 thinks i should grow breasts
22:54:34 <alise> i don't think that actually makes any sense
22:55:09 <cheater99> that neurovision girl from germany
22:55:13 <alise> lena is presumably that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Meyer-Landrut girl again
22:55:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:55:39 <cheater99> turing was the first trans-sexual in computing!
22:55:55 <alise> also the first snow white
22:55:58 <oklopol> yeah i heard something like he was a gay homosexual
22:56:27 <cheater99> no he wasn't castrated he was given estrogen
22:56:40 <alise> cheater99 speaks truth.
22:56:51 <alise> cheater99: is it really trans/gender/ if he was male, though?
22:57:17 <cheater99> trans-gender means post-op i think
22:57:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> "Turing was given a choice between imprisonment or probation conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal treatment designed to reduce libido. He accepted chemical castration via oestrogen hormone injections.[41]"
22:57:41 <oklopol> maybe turing was actually transhuman, and would've outgrown any human sex or gender eventually?
22:57:45 <alise> transgender -- gender identity; i.e. "you" in your mind; transsexual -- genitals
22:57:55 <alise> usually transgendered people have a goal to become transsexuals.
22:58:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: estrogen, though.
22:58:40 <oklopol> i mean he was pretty awesome, much of the stuff neumann is world-famous for was done by turing as well, and iirc turing has some sort of machines named after him too
22:58:48 <alise> ok then hermaphrodite
22:58:59 <oklopol> (probably some sort of gay sex machines but it's still pretty cool)
22:59:12 <cheater99> or do you mean neumann the guy who came up with microphones
22:59:18 <alise> actually i'd probably go for an hermaphroditing operation, that would be cool
22:59:35 * oklopol waits for someone to check if that's even consistent timelinewise
22:59:41 <oklopol> i don't really trust my memory
23:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Look, Turing had oestrogen. This caused him to be chemically castrated (i.e. making him infertile and reducing his libido)
23:00:10 <alise> yeah but post-op gets rid of your penis
23:00:13 <alise> and gives you a bad vagina
23:00:28 <alise> hermaphroditation would keep the peen
23:00:50 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: why do you want this to be looked at, it's irrelevant
23:01:01 <alise> cheater99: ffff why did you link me to that
23:01:08 <alise> cheater99: who said, i'm describing a magical operation
23:01:19 <alise> nobody's thought of how to do it yet, therefore i declare that it produces a perfectly fine vagina
23:01:30 <cheater99> alise: so you know what you're gettin' in2
23:01:57 <alise> cheater99: I never said I would get into it
23:02:05 <alise> I jokingly said I would hypothetically get into a hypothetical operation
23:02:10 <cheater99> <alise> actually i'd probably go for an hermaphroditing operation, that would be cool
23:02:19 <cheater99> *actually* is the opposite of *hypothetically*
23:02:36 <alise> *shut up* is the opposite of *don't shut up*
23:02:44 <alise> "actually, I'd ..."
23:02:47 <alise> if you fix the punctuation
23:02:51 <alise> in this instance actually means
23:02:55 <alise> "contrary to what I previously said, ..."
23:03:03 <oklopol> who wouldn't be hermaphrodited, you'd get to do all kinds of stuff
23:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel it necessary at this point to mention the Culture.
23:03:42 <alise> I want to read the Culture books sometime.
23:05:03 <cheater99> alise: you're trying to talk yourself out of what you are
23:05:47 <alise> cheater99: go and pioneer the hermaphroditing operation then
23:05:52 <alise> i'll be 43rd in line
23:06:06 <cheater99> ok but first you have to jack off to that: http://buckangelentertainment.com/promo/muscleman.jpg
23:06:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I will start at the beginning and continue on until I reach the end, and then stop.
23:06:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well it might go wrong
23:07:06 <alise> I'm sort of doubting that you're not kidding now :P
23:07:12 <oklopol> cheater99: you don't see the pussy that well
23:07:33 <cheater99> oklopol, http://buckangelentertainment.com/promo/laidback.jpg
23:08:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm delaying reading too many books 'til I'm out of the unit.
23:08:24 <alise> Not a clear enough mind to fully enjoy them.
23:08:31 <alise> cheater99: he's 21 or sth
23:08:36 <alise> he's always been this fun
23:09:00 <alise> i'm pretty sure he still looks loli
23:09:03 <alise> although is it loli when it's male
23:09:05 <alise> i don't think it is sir
23:09:49 <alise> have you considered "bi"
23:09:59 <alise> or just plain "pedo" :p
23:10:15 <cheater99> you people must be talking about someone else
23:10:49 <oklopol> "<cheater99> not loli enough anymore ;[" <<< i understood this as you being sad about not being able to get a boner off me anymore
23:11:07 <cheater99> they start off by showing a naked woman
23:11:15 <alise> cheater99: i use sven s porst to get all my german opinions
23:11:33 <alise> he's this guy http://earthlingsoft.net/ssp/blog/
23:13:47 <oklopol> cheater99: it's rude not to answer and not to say you're not gonna
23:13:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:14:13 <cheater99> alise, as in, why are you reading that blog in the first place
23:14:25 <alise> cheater99: because he used to be a nice ranty guy when i used os x and was sufficiently OCD about tiny things that apple fucked up... so i just started reading his blog
23:14:45 <alise> need: "german guy who has opinions": satisfied
23:15:11 <oklopol> do you need finnish guy who has an opinion
23:15:14 <alise> cheater99: well you just asked me an opinion on a german thing
23:15:22 <alise> oklopol: what is your opinion
23:16:00 <alise> oklopol: you said you had an opinion
23:16:04 <cheater99> alise: yes, but i think you said you had that need before you started habitually reading his blog
23:16:23 <alise> oklopol: what is it
23:16:47 <oklopol> i don't particularly care for oranges, because they are hard to eat
23:17:06 <alise> oranges are just a bit meh.
23:17:13 <cheater99> this guy woke up on an operation table
23:17:27 <Sgeo_> That's not a lol thing
23:17:31 -!- kar8nga has joined.
23:17:38 <Sgeo_> That's a HOLY MOTHER OF FUCK PAIN PAIN PAIN PAIN thing
23:17:44 <alise> Sgeo_: no it's a lol thing
23:17:50 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
23:18:01 <Sgeo_> How would you feel if I told you that that happened to me?
23:18:04 <cheater99> wow this is fucking amazingly terrible
23:18:11 <oklopol> in my opinion food should be eatable without any complications, i tolerate a few minutes of preparatory work per serving, but oranges need concentration during the whole eating process, because they spill their spillings everywhere and shit
23:18:15 <Sgeo_> (Note: It didn't happen to me)
23:18:39 <alise> i spill my spillings everywhere and shit LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
23:18:59 <oklopol> Sgeo_: if it happened to you it would not be funny, if it happened to someone i don't know, it's pretty funny.
23:19:00 <cheater99> half-stripped of flesh in random places
23:19:17 <cheater99> it looks fairly silly but it's believable in the moment
23:19:48 <oklopol> caring about people you don't know is against human nature and makes everyone sad
23:20:27 <Sgeo_> What about people known by people I know?
23:20:43 <alise> you get five degrees
23:20:46 <alise> six includes everyone
23:20:49 <alise> so five is the max
23:21:06 <alise> six degrees of paul erdos
23:21:35 <alise> one degree of hivemind
23:21:49 <alise> actually it would be zero degrees
23:22:15 <oklopol> : i think you should pretend to care about them when interacting with people who know them
23:22:21 <oklopol> that's the humane thing to do
23:22:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, who was that directed to?
23:22:36 <alise> I think that if oklopol were ever to come into control of the world, we would all be fucked.
23:22:42 <alise> And I'm not even sure which sense of the word I mean.
23:23:03 <pikhq_> alise: DOG FOOD FOR EVERYONE
23:23:05 <oklopol> no i would be a great dictator just because they say dictators always go mad with power and kill everyone
23:23:27 <AnMaster> pikhq_, aww, no soylent green?
23:23:30 <oklopol> that sort of reverse psychology works well on me
23:23:42 <alise> oklopol: i would really hate it if you said "quack" right now
23:24:07 <alise> oklopol: it's well known that oklopols do not say "quack".
23:24:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suggest you say "tweet" right here
23:24:47 <alise> "tweet" right here boy ;P
23:24:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:25:10 <oklopol> be less stupid alise you sound like a 14-yo kid
23:25:22 <oklopol> i want pizza but to get it i would have to make it
23:25:30 <oklopol> which would mean microwave
23:25:48 <alise> just call up a pizza delivery place and give them moneys
23:25:56 <oklopol> but i don't have clothes on
23:26:06 <oklopol> and i don't want to put any one until i absolutely have to
23:26:18 <alise> who said you have to
23:26:37 <oklopol> well i don't want to be creepy
23:26:52 <alise> oklopol: that, my dear friend, you have already failed at.
23:27:34 <Rugxulo> put the money through the mail slot, they'll leave it at the door, get it when they leave
23:27:34 <Sgeo_> I'm considered hivemind?
23:28:08 <oklopol> Rugxulo: that sounds like a really complicated social procedure
23:28:19 <oklopol> "hello pizza bad english man here"
23:28:32 <alise> oklopol: you could use your internet-connected pizza dispenser
23:28:36 <alise> it should be plugged into your computer
23:28:43 <alise> go to pizza:/// to browse the available pizza options for that device
23:28:50 <alise> and you will receive your free internet pizza
23:29:03 <alise> oklopol: haha that works
23:29:42 <AnMaster> alise, you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor ?
23:29:54 <oklopol> usually it's the other way around, she's pretty lazy
23:30:07 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-01-01-beartato-newyearnewchanges.gif
23:30:14 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, try go on at times I'm more awake
23:30:15 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but do you get out for summer break over there?
23:30:19 <alise> Free internet pizza.
23:30:24 <alise> Rugxulo: partially, I presume.
23:30:31 <alise> AnMaster: unit, presumably.
23:30:49 <AnMaster> uh summer break starts in about 1-2 weeks or such
23:31:04 <Rugxulo> BTW, all I wanted to say the other day was that Erlang seems a bit strange for Befunge-98
23:31:29 <Rugxulo> some (most?) schools over here just started break
23:31:43 <oklopol> alise: are you really embarrassed
23:31:49 <AnMaster> well, last dead line is June 11. for a lab report
23:31:58 <Rugxulo> AnMaster: oh, and Rexx supports bignums out-of-the-box, but it may not be what you want
23:32:02 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:32:03 <AnMaster> some exams on monday and uh thursday iirc
23:32:18 <Rugxulo> yes, remember I mentioned it before?
23:32:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah but I don't remember what it was
23:32:43 <Rugxulo> popular scripting language for OS/2 and Amiga and IBM mainframes
23:32:55 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, none of those platforms are relevant to me
23:33:15 <Rugxulo> it's also been ported to most other platforms (see Regina or BRexx for Linux)
23:33:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, now, if plan9 had been in the list it might have been different.
23:33:41 <Rugxulo> remember? I mentioned ooREXX, which you didn't seem too impressed with ;-)
23:33:43 <AnMaster> go write befunge98 in it yourself :)
23:33:57 <Rugxulo> don't want or need to (and already wrote B93, which was easy)
23:34:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, apart from smalltalk and (to some degree) objc, there are few languages which are doing OOP the "right way" IMO
23:34:36 <Rugxulo> oh, the other advantage of REXX is easy to learn, no reserved keywords, good string handling, etc.
23:34:38 <alise> OOP the right way: "Nothing whatsoever"
23:34:48 <Rugxulo> OOP is a big buzzword for most things these days
23:34:54 <AnMaster> alise, well, relatively speaking. Also I thought you liked smalltalk?
23:34:55 <Rugxulo> almost all languages have it
23:35:03 <Rugxulo> all hyped languages, anyways
23:35:07 <alise> Smalltalk is not "OOP" at all really.
23:35:16 <Rugxulo> yet it inspired Objective-C
23:35:37 <AnMaster> alise, well, maybe, depends on exact definition of OOP
23:35:54 <alise> Ask Alan Kay if you don't believe me :)
23:36:17 <alise> Only the most important person in the history of personal computing.
23:36:33 <alise> Invented the portable computer -- Dynabook; invented Smalltalk; major guy at Xerox PARC...
23:36:40 <alise> No, seriously; ais523 knows who Alan Kay is.
23:36:43 <Rugxulo> what about Douglas Engbart (sp?) ?
23:36:54 <alise> Rugxulo: Yes, him too.
23:37:00 <Rugxulo> RMS invented teh GNU, he pwns Lin00z!
23:37:03 <alise> But seriously... anyone who doesn't know Kay should not be in computing.
23:37:33 <Rugxulo> oh, and don't forget Andy Tannenbaum, Kernighan and Ritchie, Wirth, etc. etc.
23:37:57 <AnMaster> alise, I suck at remembering names. Had to google openbsd to check the name of the guy (Theo de Raadt that is)
23:38:05 <Rugxulo> Fabrice Bellard probably counts too ;-)
23:38:18 <alise> "Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind. ...Or Smalltalk." --Alan Kay
23:38:22 <alise> (inventor of Smalltalk)
23:38:53 <pikhq_> I doubt anyone could have C++ in mind when discussing anything vaguely related to good design.
23:39:16 <alise> Seriously, Kay is a genius and even his recent work at VPRI is great.
23:39:21 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
23:39:25 <Rugxulo> C++ is perfect! (five years later) no, now it's perfect! (five years later) okay, seriously, now it's perfect
23:39:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it never was and never will be
23:40:09 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Even a *simple* change would make using it less like getting kicked in the crotch: garbage collection.
23:40:16 <Rugxulo> seriously, why does every language get extended into OOP?
23:40:36 <alise> "object-oriented programming is the roman numerals of computing" --Rob Pike.
23:40:43 <pikhq> (still annoying, but god... *Manual memory management* with all that going on.)
23:40:53 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, no. Erlang doesn't have OOP.
23:41:28 <AnMaster> and there is a HUGE resistance to it amongst the core devs.
23:41:48 <Rugxulo> every other language seems to tack it on
23:41:50 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Haskell allows for abstract datatypes which can contain functions that can close over the value of that abstract datatype.
23:42:07 <AnMaster> alise, do you know why erlang doesn't JIT btw? Because it makes the (soft) realtime properties harder to predict
23:42:12 <pikhq> Thus, it allows for OOP by accident. :P
23:42:23 <alise> soft and welcoming.
23:42:32 <alise> pikhq: i turned you into a haskell zealot
23:42:33 * Rugxulo gives Erlang an Exlax so it can JIT properly
23:42:39 <oklopol> Zuu: btw you are familiar with thue right?
23:42:42 <pikhq> (note: no mutation, thus making "OOP" not useful.)
23:43:17 <AnMaster> unless... no it can't be that bad
23:43:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes I know what a laxative is
23:43:25 <Rugxulo> JIT as in rhyming with sh*t
23:43:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, okay even worse than I thought
23:43:38 * Rugxulo has to explain his horribly corny joke, ugh, sounds worse than it was
23:43:39 <pikhq> Rugxulo: You seem to not grok what a JIT does.
23:43:55 <pikhq> You seem to make terrible puns.
23:43:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought it was a pun on "shit just in time or such"
23:44:06 <Rugxulo> yes, I admit, my humor is lame
23:44:14 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, worse than mine in fact
23:45:01 <oklopol> yeah that was horribly bad
23:45:27 <oklopol> sometimes i like to poop out these horribly bad jokes just because i can
23:45:42 <alise> ah, here's some demonstration of elliottcable faggotry
23:45:47 <alise> [[/* I wrote Hello, world! for whatever mad, mad genius wrote this version of Brainfuck: http://pastie.org/private/siw6uoan1cd6shuao7r8hw */]]
23:46:00 <alise> mad, mad genius for OMG REASSIGNING SOME OF THE BRAINFUCK COMMANDS TO BE SIMILAR LOOKING SYMBOLS
23:46:06 <alise> and ``unicode quotes''
23:47:01 -!- gm|lap has joined.
23:47:04 <oklopol> how can the parens be un matched like that
23:47:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think it is two columns?
23:47:35 <alise> one of those is one instruction
23:47:39 <alise> HAHAHA EVIL GENIUSDF sdoijghk hAHAhasf
23:48:06 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Ayttm logging off).
23:48:11 <AnMaster> alise, so yes I think it is two columns, one weird, and one C
23:48:13 <alise> Wow, elliottcable calls **s "metapointers".
23:48:24 <alise> http://gist.github.com/402586
23:48:29 <AnMaster> alise, would ***s be hyperpointers then?
23:48:30 <alise> apparently the name of the language is "bewbs"
23:48:33 <alise> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
23:48:48 <alise> http://gist.github.com/290108 you make me want to murder your person
23:48:53 <AnMaster> oh wait, superpointers, ****s would be hyperpointer
23:48:56 <alise> http://gist.github.com/raw/295344/fbf2ac6ab9e5df7414a126d8f98272ee745d0fcd/gistfile1.txt <-- ITT: irritating retard
23:49:07 <alise> (elliottcable that is)
23:49:11 <alise> also he's a republican
23:49:18 <alise> I.E.: he likes sarah palin
23:49:49 <alise> also, he was part of the overnight Let's Fuck Up IRCNomic with Stupid Rules that Only Further the Game's Demise, then Say "lol" About It brigade
23:49:56 <alise> what I am saying is: if he returns here...
23:50:01 <alise> let's tell him to fuck off
23:50:21 <alise> i'm absent 5/7 weekdays.
23:50:23 <Sgeo_> alise, I don't remember that
23:50:33 <alise> Sgeo_: i was the only one who read the logs
23:50:51 <Sgeo_> Do the logs still exist anywhere?
23:50:58 <Sgeo_> Also, iirc, I sold my soul to you
23:51:40 <oklopol> i think metapointer might be okay terminology in some contexts
23:51:48 <alise> oklopol: he just made it up to sound faggy there though
23:51:52 <alise> and to cover up the fact that he doesn't know C
23:51:58 <alise> also note that he painstakingly uses unicode ellipses
23:52:02 <alise> where three .s would do
23:52:09 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:52:18 <alise> < clusty>what does dmesg have to say abut it?
23:52:18 <alise> -!- You're now known as dmesg
23:52:18 <alise> -!- You're now known as elliottcable
23:52:22 <alise> ha ha HAHAHAHAHAhahash
23:52:25 <alise> that's fucking hilarious.
23:52:33 <oklopol> yes that was horrible, that's like non-monospaced^7 when you take ... and squeeze it in one letter
23:52:50 <alise> http://elliottcable.tumblr.com/post/614173094/http-elliottcable-tumblr-com-post-389548350-terna half the posts on his blog are just himself being fucktarded
23:53:13 <AnMaster> alise, are you obsessed with this guy or?
23:53:22 <oklopol> well of course, they have the same name
23:53:29 <alise> it's just he was a huge fucking retard & asshole to me a while back
23:53:30 * Sgeo_ is very curious about what alise says behind my back
23:53:35 <alise> so I decided to dredge up everything about him I could
23:53:45 <alise> to admire how idiotic he was
23:53:57 <alise> also all of this is very easy to find in like a few clicks and i don't have anything else to do
23:54:28 <oklopol> http://elliottcable.tumblr.com/post/597606519/we-want-to-fly-the-plane-say-snakes-but <<< xD
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23:55:53 <pikhq> Well, your mother is a bitch.
23:56:19 <Sgeo_> Hm, why does Pandora have my RL name?
23:56:21 <Rugxulo> slightly warm pre-summer weather
23:56:34 <pikhq> It's a conspiracy, Sgeo.
23:56:45 <alise> Sgeo_: I don't know Seth Gold
23:56:49 <cheater99> oklopol, i didn't get the one about plane/tail
23:56:51 <alise> How does Pandora have Seth Gold's real name?
23:57:17 <Sgeo_> They have my FB picture
23:57:31 <oklopol> cheater99: i don't get it either
23:57:37 <Sgeo_> I don't remember signing onto FB from my normal Pandora account
23:57:41 <Sgeo_> I might have signed in once
23:57:44 <oklopol> it was just such an absurd reference
23:57:44 <Rugxulo> I think Facebook lets you share some info with other domains now
23:57:54 <Sgeo_> It's like it tracked the fact that I signed on from normal, and FB, from the same computer
23:57:57 <Rugxulo> probably got lost amongst all their privacy changes
23:57:58 <Sgeo_> And now has connected them
23:57:59 <oklopol> no idea what he was going for
23:58:20 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, don't worry about it until it bites you (which is probably never)
23:59:08 <Sgeo_> alise, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGAkpRncNbQ
23:59:13 * Rugxulo counts the shots ... nope, not lucky enough
23:59:39 <cheater99> and i don't know why i typed the 'g' there, gvim needs to get out of my head
23:59:58 <Rugxulo> because everything must be graphical or OOP (or preferably both), you will be assimilated!
00:00:02 <alise> tvim; like gvim but it wasn't always graphical
00:00:15 <Rugxulo> or Dirty Harry will bust down your door and point his magnum at your puny face!
00:01:30 <Rugxulo> (BTW, I know nobody cares, esp. AnMaster, but I did eek out a Pascal Befunge-93 interpreter recently)
00:02:42 <Rugxulo> and I'll humbly admit I don't even know what that means
00:03:10 <Sgeo_> <alise> Sgeo's shitty </alise>
00:03:27 <Rugxulo> or jitty ... ha ha ha, oh wait ........
00:03:35 * Sgeo_ can't actually figure out what the next bit would be
00:03:42 <Sgeo_> Rugxulo, I don't get it
00:04:22 * Rugxulo wishes he were funny, but alas ...
00:04:59 <alise> http://qaa.ath.cx/addition.png [[Addition]]
00:05:53 <Sgeo_> Is there a particular reason you needed to take a screenshot?
00:05:57 <alise> "Not only did that not help me but now I forgot how to perform addition altogether." --reddit
00:05:59 <alise> Sgeo_: I didn't take it.
00:06:30 <oklopol> i need to take a jit and go to sleep
00:06:43 <Rugxulo> no worse than Wikipedia's link to "motherf*cker" from the AC Transit bus fight meme
00:06:46 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c8vyo/for_the_longest_time_i_couldnt_wrap_my_head/
00:06:53 <alise> Rugxulo: Motherfucker.
00:06:59 <Rugxulo> (gotta love dem bastards, citation required!)
00:07:09 <alise> No asterisk in sight...
00:08:04 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Beard_Man
00:08:21 <Rugxulo> "In the video, Bruso is seen wearing a light blue T-shirt that reads "I AM a Motherfucker" on the back."
00:08:37 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherfucker
00:08:51 <Rugxulo> "This article needs additional citations for verification."
00:09:05 <Rugxulo> "Motherfucker (euphemized as mf) is a vulgarism which, in its most literal use, refers to one who participates in sexual intercourse with someone's mother."
00:09:13 <Rugxulo> ah, Wikipedia, educating the children, good for them
00:09:16 <alise> QUITE SO GOOD CHAP
00:09:35 <Rugxulo> and linked from the AC Transit bus fight, how elucidating!
00:10:02 <oklopol> alise: why did you link that
00:10:23 <Rugxulo> "The term gained traction during World War II, originally amongst African American GIs, " ... uh, how encyclopedic of them (NOT!)
00:10:41 <oklopol> i didn't read the comments
00:11:04 <Sgeo_> alise, I trolled a subreddit
00:11:16 <alise> Sgeo_: that's nice.
00:11:18 <alise> cheater99: in what sense
00:11:19 <cheater99> why does bcrypt only have a cost param for gensalt
00:11:23 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/iamaf/comments/c8w9v/iamna_person_trolling_riamaf_with_this_post/
00:11:28 <alise> cheater99: dunno, cuz that's how it works
00:11:32 <alise> use gensalt it will make you happy
00:11:34 <alise> happy like a walrus
00:14:25 <alise> cheater99: just think about the gzzzzzzop
00:15:49 * cheater99 shows up in alise's room with an 'I <3 RP' tshirt on. and nothing else.
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00:15:56 <Rugxulo> BTW, alise, did you hear that Win 3.0 turned 20?
00:16:09 <alise> cheater99: what does RP expand to here exactly :|
00:16:13 <alise> Rugxulo: no, but i figure that is how time works
00:16:20 <cheater99> alise: what ever we want to, baby.
00:16:25 <Rugxulo> oh, and eComStation 2.0 was finally released
00:16:47 <Rugxulo> coincidence? I think not! ;-)
00:16:55 <alise> cheater99: i'm scared
00:17:05 <alise> cheater99: i think i'll choose it to stand for received pronunciation
00:24:19 * Sgeo_ wants to make an API for multi-platform 3d environment bots
00:24:29 <Sgeo_> A lowest common denominator sort of thing
00:24:48 <cheater99> alise: that's what u get 4 trollering me
00:25:01 <alise> cheater99: how did i torlleringate you
00:26:05 <alise> on rms: "His emacs had a image background gregori rasputin. After any attempt to look at his screen he'd shut the lid and hiss. Call me crazy but his beard would move on its own sometimes too."
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00:27:42 <alise> "You, my friend, are unique and special. Like a working instance of the HURD kernel."
00:28:59 * Sgeo_ has something to say on this topic, but my computer's being a prick
00:29:41 <Sgeo_> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99561.aspx#99561
00:30:56 <alise> Not that topic /again/
00:34:45 <Sgeo_> alise, you asked for it by mentioning RMS
00:42:40 <Zuu> oklopol: thue?
00:42:56 <Zuu> Who's thue?
00:46:31 <alise> Thue is a language.
00:46:41 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
00:46:48 <alise> One of the most surprising instances of Turing-completeness.
00:51:01 <Zuu> Interresting
00:52:40 <Zuu> oklopol: i didnt know of that language, no :P
00:53:58 <alise> 09:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Why in the name of goat did we make the wiki public domain?
00:54:03 <alise> Graue is opinionated -- I agree with him
00:54:08 <alise> 09:07:50 <Phantom_Hoover> No GPLed code. On a *software* wiki.
00:54:10 <alise> That's why we use links.
00:54:18 <alise> Never given us problems; deal.
00:55:23 * Sgeo_ gives alise a problem
00:55:41 <alise> I reject your problem and substitute my own, much more easily-rectified problem.
00:58:04 * Zuu steals the problems and nukes it in the micorwave oven
00:59:04 * Zuu nukes his spelling in the microwave oven too
01:02:10 <cheater99> bcrypt's hasher DOES have a parameter for the amount of iterations. it's passed as part of the salt string.
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01:04:07 <alise> i think it affects the salt generation too though
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01:06:12 <Ilari> Nice, putting iteration count in salt, enabling variable verification complexity.
01:06:29 <Sgeo_> I think I want to wear a helmet for the rest of my life
01:06:35 <alise> Oh, look, he's still here.
01:49:25 <uorygl> ¡Ay! It looks like there are no good web sites out there for learning Finnish.
01:58:44 <alise> 13:26:08 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: hah
01:58:45 <alise> 13:26:28 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: distributed applications, web applications, client/server stuff
01:58:45 <alise> 13:26:42 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: positioned to replace Ruby/JavaScript or Python/JavaScript
01:58:45 <alise> 13:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's not esoteric?
01:58:48 <alise> Pre-fuckin'-cisely.
01:59:00 <alise> 13:33:59 <elliottcable> people’ve called it esoteric
01:59:01 <alise> People are stupid.
01:59:08 <alise> I love slow logreading.
02:02:20 -!- alise has left (?).
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02:09:54 <alise> International Standard.
02:10:41 <alise> So anyway, Ripple (http://ripple.sourceforge.net/) is awesome (https://ripplepay.com/ but this is stalled iirc)
02:28:52 <Sgeo_> Decentralization makes me horny, but that doesn't mean everything can be decentralized
02:32:16 * pikhq decentralises Sgeo
02:36:57 <alise> Considering Ripple is an actually-tried-in-practice, feasible solution that would solve an awful lot of economic problems...
02:37:03 <alise> It's not decentralisation for decentralisation's sake.
02:47:52 <alise> A very small scale, but still.
02:47:59 <alise> It isn't something with a huge inherent flaw that makes it impossible.
02:53:42 <Sgeo_> We don't know how well it will scale
02:55:01 <alise> Fearmongering is pointless and for weak minds; you should know better than that. Find problems in the system instead of instinctively reacting like that to ideas you haven't been exposed to.
02:55:08 <alise> Or the status quo really will control our thoughts...
02:55:32 <Sgeo_> I'm just saying it needs to be tested on a larger scale.
02:55:58 <alise> Unlikely; the economic status of the world means that no real change is possible.
03:04:25 <pikhq> alise: Not impossible. Just sure to be incredibly traumatic when it happens.
03:04:49 <pikhq> (somewhere along the lines of "oh fuck everything broke")
03:04:59 <alise> I hope to not see that.
03:05:05 <alise> This broken system beats its chaotic destruction.
03:05:12 <alise> I can has gradual anarchy?
03:05:24 <pikhq> I'd rather not see the approximate equivalent of the fall of Rome.
03:11:13 <SgeoN1> Suppose somehow, by some strange fortune, there are two people who have no links between them
03:14:07 <alise> That doesn't happen. The world doesn't work like that.
03:14:37 <Gregor> One of these people lives in Alpha Centauri.
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03:29:03 <zzo38> Now the colon before the message is mix-up? However, it is still gray, rather than blue as the message text is supposed to be blue
03:30:40 <zzo38> Maybe something to do with out PuTTY works
03:30:48 <SgeoN1> You're not just typing spaces?
03:31:09 <zzo38> I was, but Gregor is different
03:32:12 <SgeoN1> Who here isn't different?
03:33:11 <SgeoN1> Alise, it's happened before.
03:33:47 <SgeoN1> Unless you count dead people in the links, I guess
03:34:48 <Gregor> I did a Unicode zero-width space :P
03:35:46 <alise> Sgeo_: It hasn't "happened before". Under a Ripple system, the probability that two people are connected in a sufficiently large economy is... say... 1.
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03:44:53 <SgeoN1> How about before, say, Columbus?
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03:46:59 <alise> SgeoN1: they didn't have technoeconomies.
03:47:22 <alise> And Columbus was lame.
03:47:49 <SgeoN1> Confused and stubborn, yes. Lame?
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03:56:30 <alise> "HEY GUYZ, AMERICA! Ignore the Leif Ericson behind the curtain."
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04:05:49 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I did't know about him
04:07:46 <alise> Get yourself some edumacation, sir.
04:12:24 <alise> Good night, good sirs, good madams, not that we have any -- good night.
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04:40:23 <Rugxulo> hmmm, CCBI updated yesterday
04:46:32 <zzo38> Just a few things, in general.
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05:46:23 <oerjan> what is that about people shouting my nick lately
05:47:09 <oerjan> (or approximations to it)
05:47:20 <Rugxulo> yeah, that was my "joke", heh
05:48:23 <oerjan> if you say so, Ru9xu1ø
05:49:17 <Rugxulo> hmmm, even latest CCBI seems slow on my lame benchmark
05:49:27 <Rugxulo> oh well, not important (obviously)
05:51:32 <oerjan> the lame are usually slow
05:52:12 <Rugxulo> or this P4 (better scapegoat)
05:52:30 <Sgeo_> TV Tropes just LIED to me
05:52:50 <Sgeo_> Actually, it was referring to XKCD
05:52:54 <Sgeo_> Which is also lying
05:52:58 <Sgeo_> http://xkcd.com/180/
05:53:16 <oerjan> Rugxulo: DON'T GO THERE IT'S A TRAP
05:56:27 <Sgeo_> Dying in Canada does not kill you IRL
05:56:42 * Sgeo_ waits for someone to comment
05:57:02 * Rugxulo expects someone to say, "living in Canada is as good as death"
05:57:31 <Sgeo_> By Canada, I of course mean IRCNomic
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06:00:03 <Sgeo_> Ironically, Canada itself has died.
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06:22:17 <Rugxulo> ironically, conversion in this channel has died
06:30:35 <zzo38> This game in demo mode it just keep moving the same card back and forth over and over again all the time
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09:19:41 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> (BTW, I know nobody cares, esp. AnMaster, but I did eek out a Pascal Befunge-93 interpreter recently) <-- nice!
09:20:46 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I fail to see how "<Sgeo_> Does it do PSOX?" makes sense. Isn't it a separate program from the interpreter normally?
09:21:12 <AnMaster> which in theory can be used by any language
09:21:48 <Sgeo_> Who said I wanted it to make sense, as opposed to making a joke? But in theory, languages can include features that make working with PSOX easier
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09:22:26 <Sgeo_> Also, there's no reason the interpreter couldn't include its own PSOX implementation for some reason
09:22:40 <Sgeo_> Although that would be a bit pointless and annoying
09:22:46 * Sgeo_ should be sleeping
09:23:09 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX and http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk
09:23:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a program that you connect stdin/stdout of a bf program to. Then you can use some sort of escape seqs to do file IO with it and such
09:23:28 <Sgeo_> "Currently, only domains 0-2 work, but custom domains are function
09:23:58 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, doesn't have to be bf. Just has to have byte stdio, like you just said
09:24:13 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I lost the password for Sgeo
09:24:30 <Sgeo_> I was also on Freenode as Sgep for a time, for the same reason
09:24:34 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think so
09:24:45 <Sgeo_> If I did, I'd have emailed myself a reset thingy
09:24:52 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, quite a few languages can't easily do that.
09:25:00 <AnMaster> isn't TAXI for example quite limited?
09:25:12 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, iirc, Taxi can actually do it, with a bit of pain
09:25:17 <Sgeo_> Um, actually, hold on
09:25:26 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I seem to remember there was some issue with zero byte in it
09:25:37 <Sgeo_> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec/psox-utils.txt
09:26:02 <Sgeo_> 0x04 0x13 loopback, which would allow a TAXI program to add a newline to what it's receiving, since it needs to receive in lines
09:26:14 <Sgeo_> That's the reason I added that function, actually
09:26:50 <Sgeo_> Any hypothetical PSOX2 would use just simple stuff or less
09:27:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you could use protocol modules
09:27:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, that is, different ways to encode for different languages
09:27:44 <Sgeo_> THe language itself should specify the encoding somehow, I think
09:27:58 <AnMaster> so you can fit different frontends to PSOX basically
09:28:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, so all languages should have to mention PSOX in their specs?
09:28:28 <Sgeo_> I want the language requesting to specify customizable frontend, I think
09:28:41 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, nono, the program written in the language
09:28:46 <Sgeo_> I was being a bit lazy in my typing
09:36:43 <Sgeo_> WHY am I still awake?
09:37:16 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, because you aren't asleep?
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10:10:28 <Sgeo_> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav
10:10:38 <Sgeo_> I should be sleeping 5 hours ago
10:10:51 <Sgeo_> I _had_ the computer closed too!
10:11:04 <Sgeo_> But no, I had to check Agora to see if I had any responses
10:11:15 <Sgeo_> Back to pretending to be asleep. Night all
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12:51:05 <oklopol> "<Zuu> Who's thue?" <<< thue was a famous mathematician who did among other things all kinds of fun computability stuff, thue is named after his thue systems which are models of computation almost identical to the language
12:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also gave me a useful way to answer pointless surveys.
12:52:27 <oklopol> oh right also did some of the first cool combinatorics on words stuff
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12:53:31 <oklopol> the thue-morse word was invented for the purpose of not having repetitions of length over 2
12:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I found out about it when reading a thing on whether it was possible to play an unending game of chess.
12:55:17 <oklopol> i guess he probably doesn't know what the word is
12:55:40 <oklopol> so i'm not really educating him, but i'm using it as an excuse to be able to say random facts
12:56:24 <oklopol> right unending chess, sort of a trivial corollary
12:56:39 <oklopol> well maybe not entirely trivial because you have to find out what to repeat
12:56:55 <oklopol> although i suppose that takes like 3 moves from the initial position
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14:01:48 * AnMaster tries to figure out how long 306 MB would take at an average transfer speed of 75kB/s
14:03:29 -!- kar8nga has joined.
14:04:49 <AnMaster> a bit more than ETA reported by rsync
14:05:13 <AnMaster> (yes I did compensate for what it reported as already transferred)
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14:18:57 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie oerjan lament! <-- i take it you want cheater99 banned?
14:21:07 <oerjan> you'd have to ask Phantom_Hoover about that
14:22:38 <oklopol> oerjan: maybe you should ban him anyway, because i want to see your powers in action
14:23:31 <oerjan> oklopol: i already banned fax a few weeks ago
14:24:08 <oklopol> what day was it i wanna read the log
14:25:31 <oerjan> oklopol: she used the soupdragon nick then
14:29:11 -!- alise has joined.
14:30:57 <alise> Yes. Anyway I have some inexplicable urge to write an ircd.
14:31:44 <alise> One day I decided to see how people would treat me differently on IRC if they thought I had ovaries. But I don't go to other channels much and nobody really sexist enters here.
14:32:12 <alise> Then I decided to keep it to crush English's sexist pronoun system; this nickname's gender is male, but with all pronouns augmented to be the female ones (while my gender is male)
14:32:23 <alise> I do get the impression of friendlier, quicker service when I go to other channels though... and when some trolls came in here they propositioned me for sex
14:32:29 <AnMaster> <alise> Yes. Anyway I have some inexplicable urge to write an ircd. <-- in which language
14:32:48 <alise> oklopol doesn't, and oerjan doesn't when he remembers.
14:33:02 <alise> And note that people don't use pronouns so much on IRC since there are so many people.
14:33:10 <alise> Which is why you have not "notied" (*noticed) it.
14:33:33 <alise> AnMaster: That's the frightening thing. Take a guess.
14:33:48 <alise> That's not frightening for me.
14:34:06 <alise> That's not frightening for me.
14:34:26 <oklopol> women are stupider than men
14:34:43 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what they want you to think
14:34:44 <alise> oklopol: Well, you don't show it much.
14:34:54 <alise> oklopol: and anyway you've never said anything as strong a statement as that before :P
14:35:02 <alise> oklopol: I think you just adopt controversial opinions because they're controversial
14:35:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I asked AnMaster to guess!
14:35:31 <oerjan> people who just adopt controversial opinions because they're controversial should be shot
14:35:51 <alise> AnMaster: It's frightening for me.
14:36:11 <alise> I like QBASIC; why would that be frightening for me?
14:36:14 <alise> Come on, think a little bit.
14:36:18 <alise> What's a language I really hate?
14:36:25 <alise> No, Erlang is fine.
14:36:30 <alise> What's a language I really DETEST?
14:36:38 <alise> (Not you, Phanty.)
14:36:42 <oerjan> alise: i already _said_ java
14:36:48 <alise> AnMaster: I don't detest ook, there's not enough language to detest
14:36:57 <alise> oerjan: java is supremely shittily mediocre, not detestable
14:37:00 <alise> php isn't even a language
14:37:03 <alise> For fuck's sake you retards
14:37:46 <AnMaster> alise, so if you detest C, how do you feel about C++ then
14:37:51 <alise> AnMaster: well the actual good C like the plan 9 folks do is alright
14:37:58 <alise> but I hate typical C-on-Unix bullcrap
14:38:07 <alise> C++ is just don't go there
14:38:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A few words, manual memory management is humanly impossible and a complete waste of time. If you think you can do it, wrong! You made a mistake. All this is unnecessary and we had machines that did GC on everything in the 80s, so isn't this fun?
14:38:49 <oklopol> manual memory management is bullshit
14:38:57 <alise> Also, the C standard library interestingly lacks a single function that operates on a real string data structure.
14:39:07 <Phantom_Hoover> C is pointless unless you're writing madly low-level stuff.
14:39:09 <alise> Instead it gives you a bunch of badly-named memory management functions that behave weirdly on \0 characters.
14:39:11 <oklopol> the C standard library is retarded
14:39:24 <alise> I love GObject, it's ludicrously insane
14:39:24 <oklopol> gnome is a fucking shithole
14:39:27 <AnMaster> alise, I think manual memory management is quite feasible for some tasks
14:39:34 <alise> they're writing more gnome stuff in vala nowadays
14:39:40 <alise> also oklopol is just parroting opinions but more strongly now
14:39:48 <alise> AnMaster: yeah maybe embedded programming.
14:39:49 <oklopol> oklopol is a fucking asshole
14:39:55 <alise> oklopol sucks dick
14:40:09 <AnMaster> alise, and you need something for internal data structures of a GC
14:40:27 <alise> that's where oklopol stops at, him sucking dick
14:40:31 <AnMaster> alise, "it's GCs all the way down" yeah right
14:40:38 <oklopol> oklopol is a gay homosexual
14:40:41 <alise> C GCs are inherently conservative... which is lame
14:40:43 <oklopol> who sucks dick for a living
14:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yo dawg I heard you like GCs so we GCed your GC so you can GC while you GC
14:40:50 <oklopol> because he'd die without gay sex
14:40:51 <alise> and then walks home
14:41:19 <AnMaster> <alise> Also, the C standard library interestingly lacks a single function that operates on a real string data structure. <-- agreed. C strings are irritating
14:41:23 <alise> "Yo dawg I herd you like X so we put an X in your Y so you can X while you Y" has mutated by replacing Y with X.
14:41:26 <alise> It's been... specialised.
14:41:27 <AnMaster> but they made kind of sense back when C was made
14:41:32 <AnMaster> alise, memory wasn't cheap back then
14:41:38 <cheater99> i joked they're using technobabble and he made me his personal enemy #1
14:41:42 <alise> AnMaster: pascal existed... even pascal strings are better
14:41:47 <alise> cheater99: Was it fax, perchance?
14:41:52 <alise> Everyone is fax's personal enemy #1.
14:41:53 <AnMaster> alise, well, the non-fixed length ones are
14:41:59 <AnMaster> alise, the fixed length ones are horrible
14:42:17 <alise> oklopol: only 'cuz you haven't called her a girl yet
14:42:18 <AnMaster> alise, and iirc the fixed length was all that existed back then
14:42:21 <alise> or not responded to her immediately
14:42:32 <alise> maybe she just wants to have sex with you then
14:42:40 <oklopol> i started talking to her in pm a lot when i heard she was a girl
14:42:54 <alise> she doesn't consider herself a girl :P
14:43:05 <cheater99> ok now he doesn't hate me that much anymore
14:43:10 <alise> or at least when I said to AnMaster that she was m->f transgender which is what augur told me, she freaked
14:43:13 <alise> and yelled at me for 50 years
14:43:16 <alise> AnMaster: Anyway so I'm just going to write it as event-ish based code
14:43:20 <oklopol> what do i care, i enjoy conversations more if the other dude has a vagina.
14:43:27 <alise> AnMaster: and see if I can avoid serious string handling outside of the parser
14:43:29 <alise> oklopol: she doesn't
14:43:34 <alise> at least I'm 99% sure she hasn't had a sex change
14:43:53 <alise> for one, you need to have a psychological evaluation to make sure you are sane
14:44:08 <alise> and (1) she is not sane (2) apparently she'd been to see psychologists before and just gave up on it
14:44:13 <oklopol> so what, she doesn't think she's a girl, and she has a dick
14:44:22 <alise> well clearly she thinks she's female in some sense
14:44:25 <AnMaster> 232.78M 76% 60.31kB/s 0:21:01 83.77kB/s 0:35:09 <-- sigh
14:44:28 <alise> since she prefers the pronoun she... I think
14:44:42 <alise> oklopol: it's a crazy ungendered person with a dick
14:44:53 <AnMaster> why does it have two times there
14:44:57 <alise> AnMaster: hmm, come to think of it, ircds don't really handle strings at all
14:45:11 <oklopol> alise: well that's still closer to person with vagina than guy
14:45:23 <AnMaster> alise, they need to parse the message to figure out if it is a command, and such. Like JOIN or PRIVMSG
14:45:43 <AnMaster> alise, and for PRIVMSG they have to figure out where to send it
14:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Come to think of it, Lisp was around when C was invented.
14:45:51 <AnMaster> for other commands they need to parse the parameters too
14:46:12 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but beyond parsing
14:46:19 <alise> which can all be done in one go really, since most commands don't have in-parameter syntaxes
14:46:20 <AnMaster> alise, oh and they need to construct a large number of strings to send to clients. like :alise!~alise@91.105.86.86 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but beyond parsing
14:46:30 <alise> they don't have to construct them necessarily
14:46:34 <alise> they can send them to the socket as they go
14:46:51 <alise> oklopol: well she used to identify as male, definitely
14:46:58 <alise> oklopol: so it's male->who knows? and they have a dick
14:47:04 <AnMaster> alise, still some messages like PING/PONG, various stuff like gline reasons. Quit reasons.
14:47:30 <AnMaster> alise, also /map. (probably disabled for non-opers on here)
14:47:38 <alise> what does that do?
14:47:43 <AnMaster> alise, well it shows a map of the spanning tree from the server you are on
14:48:01 <alise> That sounds lovely^Whorrible.
14:48:17 <alise> Although I guess you'll hate this thing anyway since I don't plan to support any existing irc services
14:48:24 <AnMaster> alise, quite useful for opers. For non-opers either it shows nothing or it is disabled
14:48:24 <oklopol> alise: she's also insane, i think that's even better than having a vagina
14:48:32 <AnMaster> alise, no server linking? well sane move
14:48:40 <AnMaster> server linking makes thing very complex
14:48:40 <cheater99> everyone started calling him/her/it arbitrary pronouns
14:48:42 <alise> AnMaster: not the same thing
14:48:48 <oklopol> if a guy was totally nuts i could probably have sex with him
14:48:51 <alise> AnMaster: you can link servers without supporting the special oper commands
14:48:54 <alise> that the services use
14:48:59 <cheater99> and then it got so big the ops got pissed off
14:49:04 <cheater99> and started banning anyone who did that lol
14:49:07 <oklopol> and if a girl was really smart i'd be like put ur clothes on
14:49:30 <AnMaster> alise, hm? On most ircds they use standard ones but have some extra permissions basically
14:49:39 <AnMaster> perhaps one or two special ones for services
14:49:46 * AnMaster checks inspircd server protocol docs
14:49:51 <alise> then why do ircds like ngircd say they need to add suppo for dervices to work
14:49:57 <alise> and why do services have their own modules, usually, in ircds
14:50:41 <AnMaster> alise, also server<->server protocols for ircds are not standard. Well there exist a few that are used by several
14:50:55 <AnMaster> so that explains "<alise> and why do services have their own modules, usually, in ircds"
14:51:09 <alise> but isn't server linking... useful? :-)
14:51:12 <AnMaster> alise, then there is the thing about /whois
14:51:18 <AnMaster> * [alise] is logged in as alise
14:51:18 <alise> I can't imagine freenode running on one network -- but then I guess I won't be runnning Freenode any time soon
14:51:31 <AnMaster> alise, a few small things like that need some sort of support from the ircd side
14:51:33 <alise> AnMaster: well, see, I'm going to do services by just having it be a plugin-type dealie
14:51:38 <alise> so that it can easily hook into /whois and the like
14:51:56 <AnMaster> alise, well inspircd uses an m_services.so
14:52:14 <alise> I mean there will be no separate services package or server.
14:52:19 <alise> It'll just be a plugin for this one ircd.
14:52:29 <AnMaster> alise, decentralised services?
14:52:40 <alise> AnMaster: I cannot imagine that working, at all :P
14:52:44 <AnMaster> alise, you realise that would be quite a pain to handle if servers splits.
14:53:10 <AnMaster> alise, I can imagine it working. It is just that it would be a PITA and conflict resolution would be quite insane
14:53:12 <alise> it can't link servers, remember?
14:53:19 <alise> or do you mean decentralised services
14:53:55 <alise> Well, yeah, that's even what you said.
14:54:06 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, no server linking? well sane move
14:54:06 <alise> <AnMaster> server linking makes thing very complex
14:54:19 <alise> I'm sure you can have a single ircd serving at least 7,000 online peeps if it's written well enough.
14:54:27 <AnMaster> but then "<alise> but isn't server linking... useful? :-)" made me think you decided to do it anyway
14:54:33 <alise> I mean, it's not like any of this is computationally intensive, and the c10k problem is well-researched.
14:54:41 <AnMaster> alise, thing is, avoiding race conditions in server protocol is like a black art
14:54:51 <alise> Yeah; I don't go for black art.
14:55:01 <alise> If I can't explain every line exactly I get upset and try and rewrite it.
14:55:12 <AnMaster> alise, for example you need two timestamps for topic for conflict resolution to work properly after a netsplit
14:55:22 <AnMaster> one for channel created and one for topic last changed
14:55:27 <alise> Why don't we just assume netsplits NEVER HAPPEN?! Yay!!!!
14:55:40 <AnMaster> alise, and then it goes like: oldest channel created wins. If a tie, then newest topic change wins
14:56:02 <AnMaster> alise, because they always happen. Network issues and so on.
14:56:26 <alise> Assume a perfectly spherical cow, and a perfectly reliable network.
14:57:46 <alise> So how do "most" event-based ircds do thangs? I'm just going to do it the obvious way -- you can set up callbacks on certain events/messages coming in from certain users, etc., in the server, and the handlers queue() up messages to be sent after they exit
14:58:03 <AnMaster> a quick look at http://wiki.inspircd.org/InspIRCd_Spanning_Tree_1.2/Commands indicates there are a few service specific messages. Only a few are actually needed. SVSNICK is to handle nick already registered-auto rename
14:58:49 <AnMaster> oh and svsmode (for some services at least)
14:58:50 <alise> I'm considering making my "services" actually just commands
14:59:13 <alise> Like "/nick register password", except not /nick of course because that's taken.
14:59:14 <AnMaster> alise, sane idea if you are not doing server linking yeah
14:59:28 <alise> One advantage of services users is that you can have them in their own tab
15:00:38 <AnMaster> alise, well sure. But since they use notices to reply (RFC requires this actually, that is, automated replies should be NOTICE and you must not generate an automated reply when receiving a NOTICE, a way to block infinite loops)
15:00:56 <AnMaster> uh didn't finish the sentence I see XD
15:01:00 <alise> I know about that rule, but that rule is a bit silly.
15:01:06 <alise> IRC bots using /notice is irritating in the highest.
15:01:09 <AnMaster> well: ... they usually end up in #services for me
15:01:27 <AnMaster> since services are all joined there. That is on networks where I am in there
15:01:35 <alise> Hmm... I wonder if clients handle a completely ludicrous hostname.
15:01:47 <AnMaster> alise, you mean like the one freenode uses?
15:01:51 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] (~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster): AnMaster
15:01:56 <alise> ": NOTICE ehird :AHAHAHA"
15:02:36 <AnMaster> alise, no that isn't just empty host name. It is empty nick and ident too
15:02:38 <alise> So in XChat that would display as "-- AHAHAHA", presumably.
15:02:42 <alise> AnMaster: Ah, right.
15:02:55 <AnMaster> alise, eh. I have no clue. But I don't recommend it
15:03:05 <AnMaster> alise, why not use server style notices
15:03:06 <alise> Why not? It would be useful for the server to send "useful" information to the client.
15:03:08 <AnMaster> let me check how they are sent
15:03:15 <alise> Don't those go to the server tab in XChat?
15:03:18 <alise> That's what I'm trying to avoid.
15:03:31 <alise> Or do you mean :a.b.c NOTICE ...
15:05:02 <AnMaster> >> :server.example.org NOTICE AnMaster :*** CHANCREATE: Channel #bar created by AnMaster!AnMaster@hostname.here
15:05:09 <AnMaster> well the >> is from my raw log
15:05:17 <AnMaster> as opposed to being sent to server
15:05:21 <alise> Right, well, an empty domain name is perfectly valid
15:05:25 <alise> So : NOTICE should work fine.
15:05:39 <AnMaster> alise, iirc it needs to be the server name sent to client on connect
15:06:08 <AnMaster> alise, but sure, go ahead and try empty host name. It wouldn't surprise me if it broke
15:06:37 <alise> * [NickServ] (NickServ@services.): Nickname Services
15:06:41 <alise> So how about :@ircd.?
15:06:49 <AnMaster> alise, no idea. I never tried it
15:06:56 <AnMaster> nor do I have easy testing of it available
15:07:15 -!- enero has joined.
15:07:28 <alise> So, just to check, the I won't run into any serious problems with an event-based model based on adding callbacks to certain types of message that come in, plus queue()ing up messages to send after handlers exit?
15:07:41 <AnMaster> alise, idea: write a "test bench" with netcat that just sends pre-written file to connecting clients
15:07:46 <AnMaster> then test clients against that
15:08:11 <oklopol> guy i've never seen rings the doorbell "hi i'm your neighbor, left the keys at home, can i borrow your cellphone?" "okay, here" "thanks, i'll just go get the number and call" *vanishes*
15:08:52 <AnMaster> alise, I have no idea. Worth a try I presume. Most ircds are single threaded and use non-blocking IO
15:08:57 <alise> congrats, you just gave away your cellphone
15:09:17 <oklopol> i thought "wow if this is a hoax then damn it's clever"
15:09:24 <alise> I must remember that for all your insanity you are a little bit stupid
15:09:37 <AnMaster> alise, with select() or whatever is available on platform that is better
15:09:49 <alise> AnMaster: of course
15:10:09 <alise> AnMaster: point is, though, you never need to block the handler until this message is sent
15:10:15 <alise> queueing up stuff will always work?
15:10:19 <oklopol> but anyway, there's really no way to get robbed in finland
15:10:22 <alise> although otoh... what's the point
15:10:41 <AnMaster> you do need to consider timed events, such as timing out old glines
15:10:44 <alise> a function in your ircd queue which does
15:10:48 <oklopol> this is a very boring country
15:10:56 <alise> queue(...) ==> append the message to an internal list
15:10:58 <alise> then when your handler exits
15:11:03 <alise> the main loop goes through all queued messages
15:11:05 <alise> and sends them off
15:11:08 <alise> then does its select-ery again
15:11:19 <alise> will it have any advantages over immediate sending, though...
15:11:33 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ 1st edition unix
15:11:34 <AnMaster> alise, of course, you will need to wake up sometimes even when queue is empty and there is no IO
15:11:57 * alise is almost tempted to say Meh, klines... who needs them
15:12:10 <alise> Meh, PING, who needs it. Freenode doesn't even kick you if you don't respond to pings.
15:12:30 <alise> Well it didn't beforehand and that's good enough for me
15:12:30 <AnMaster> after the switch from hyperion to charybdis
15:12:43 <AnMaster> well, not charybdis, ircd-seven. Which is charybdis + a few patches
15:13:11 <AnMaster> alise, it relied on tcp timeout indeed
15:14:19 <alise> So, now that I've the idea, I clearly must start on the most important part: the name. irked?
15:14:51 <AnMaster> alise, oh and bans. That is some fun string handling
15:15:04 <AnMaster> you need to do wild card matching there
15:15:07 <alise> "A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language." --Knuth
15:15:47 <AnMaster> alise, so yes there is some string handling outside parser. for glines/klines it is ident@host only. Nick doesn't come into it
15:16:07 <alise> Or, maybe I'll just change everything so that it's better.
15:16:16 <alise> If it doesn't have an interface, it's free game!
15:16:34 <alise> Well, nobody really uses an interface to ban, they do it manually.
15:16:42 <alise> But people use an interface to talk, join, invite, etc. -- an IRC client.
15:16:44 <AnMaster> alise, and that has the wildcards
15:16:47 <AnMaster> * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 18 11:01:14 *!*email@*.dyn.optonline.net verne.freenode.net
15:16:49 <alise> So I can't change the latter, but I can change the former.
15:16:53 <alise> Do you understand?
15:17:17 <AnMaster> alise, you can't change the latter easily without breaking things. for example that ban list above was formatted by my client
15:17:27 <alise> don't look at the banlist then :PP
15:17:34 <AnMaster> >> :verne.freenode.net 367 AnMaster #esoteric *!*checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net verne.freenode.net 1271581274
15:17:38 <AnMaster> * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 18 11:01:14 *!*checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net verne.freenode.net
15:17:58 -!- enero has left (?).
15:18:09 <AnMaster> how I love the numerics. At least there is a nice list for it somewhere
15:18:13 <alise> Anyway, I don't think I need to worry about bans before I can get a connection going, do you?
15:18:37 <AnMaster> alise, covers many (but not all) ircds: http://winchat.fyrenet.com/OPERINFO/IrcNumerics/IRC-2%20Numeric%20List.htm
15:19:22 <alise> ~/work/2010-05/irked; so no matter how old it gets, it will always be from now.
15:19:58 <oklopol> i one made an ircd just so my friend could run his irc bot more efficiently
15:20:33 <alise> I once fucked a goat.
15:20:40 <AnMaster> anyway it isn't like you need anything more than select() or poll(), if you want to be prudent split it out in a separate function with some add()/remove()/wait() API. Should be easy to replace with epoll or whatever later then
15:21:13 <alise> AnMaster: select is easier to use at first right?
15:21:31 <alise> I'll just put select() in the main loop at first, then refactor it out into a separate function when I wish.
15:21:34 <AnMaster> alise, hm iirc both of those messes up your data structure after each wait
15:21:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:22:52 <AnMaster> alise, the point of epoll and kqueue is that they don't send the list of fds to wait on to the kernel every time. The kernel stores a list that you can wait on.
15:23:05 <AnMaster> and that also means they don't mess up your list so you have to rebuild it every time
15:23:11 <alise> So are they... easy to use?
15:23:12 <AnMaster> which at least select() does iirc
15:23:21 <alise> I'm amazingly lazy you see.
15:23:48 <alise> Because! It'll be event based, so it won't hurt, right?
15:23:56 <alise> Arithmetic hates you
15:24:12 <AnMaster> alise, I'm using IEEE floating point
15:25:12 <alise> IEEE is the devil's arithmetic.
15:25:18 <AnMaster> alise, oh btw epoll can be either level or edge triggered
15:25:42 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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15:25:54 <alise> What what or the what what?
15:25:55 <AnMaster> that means it can return right away. Which you might want. epoll can be set to only return on change.
15:26:05 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:26:37 * alise wonders whether to write it using CWEB. Literate programming! Nah.
15:26:45 <AnMaster> alise, of course epoll is linux specific, kqueue is freebsd specific (and possibly other *bsd), /dev/poll is solaris
15:26:54 <AnMaster> windows has something completely different again
15:27:13 * alise notes a big advantage of literate programming's blocks is that they can access variables where they appear, unlike functions.
15:27:18 <AnMaster> poll and select are both fairly standard. Possibly excluding *BSD
15:28:02 <AnMaster> s/Possibly excluding \*BSD/Possibly excluding Windows/
15:28:23 <alise> parse_options(argc, argv);
15:28:28 <alise> whereas with literate programming you'd just say
15:28:40 <alise> and later on the <<parse options>> code could use argc and argv
15:28:44 <alise> (It's not goto; it's all rearranged before compiling)
15:29:33 <alise> fprintf(stderr, "You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!\n");
15:29:46 <alise> I will hereby heartily accept dares of the form "keep this as your invalid-option message forever".
15:29:50 <AnMaster> alise, do you still have functions in literate programming?
15:30:00 <alise> AnMaster: Yes; it's plain C in the end, of course. Well, or Pascal :-D
15:30:26 <alise> But it has things like "macros" -- sort of like preprocessor macros but saner, for tiny little not-even-functions -- and the "blocks" which are the main thing, literate programming isn't just comments-by-default,
15:30:53 <alise> it's about being able to write your code in the order that it's relevant, so that you can talk about it, and then later say "Here's how we parse the options of the program" because the reader /does not need to know those details/ before understanding more about the program
15:31:01 <AnMaster> alise, is the generated output readable btw?
15:31:05 <alise> AnMaster: I guess so.
15:31:16 <alise> Why would you want to, though?
15:31:28 <AnMaster> well, debugging literate programming typos.
15:31:38 <alise> Anyway, you can sort of do blocks in regular C by predeclaring a function; but you have to manually pass around variables and can only have one return variable instead of changing others.
15:31:39 <AnMaster> also I hope it uses #line as required
15:31:44 <AnMaster> so you can get useful back traces
15:31:45 <alise> And it's more verbose to declare a function, and you have to under_score_your_name.
15:31:54 <alise> AnMaster: I don't think CWEB does.
15:31:55 <AnMaster> alise, oh and could you use the "<<parse options>>" thing in several places?
15:32:12 <AnMaster> alise, okay that could cause some confusion for back traces
15:32:43 <alise> I'm pretty sure it works fine :P
15:32:47 <AnMaster> since it might be hard to figure out which case of using that code it was that crashed
15:32:55 <alise> You have this strange condition where you try and search for the problems first in everything.
15:33:41 * alise uses c99 so that he doesn't have to put (void) in function declarations
15:33:46 <alise> Stupidest thing ever, stupid!
15:33:59 <alise> void foo(); <-- this is invalid in c89
15:34:22 <AnMaster> alise, it means a K&R style function in C89 iirc
15:34:24 <alise> "Gee, how should we denote a function having no arguments?" "Uh... put void in there... void is like... nothingness..." [some time passes] "Wow, we were really fucking stoned last night. Hey, I wonder what we did to C? ...WHAT?"
15:34:54 <AnMaster> so void means a function with no parameters in C89. while having nothing there means it isn't specified, like in K&R
15:35:10 <alise> But in C99, "void foo();" is the same as "void foo(void);"
15:36:24 <alise> Aw man, this doesn't work:
15:36:25 <alise> while ((int opt = getopt(argc, argv, "v")) != -1) {
15:37:09 * alise attempts to get \ae displaying on his terminal
15:37:24 <alise> Of course it's an IRC dmon, why wouldn't I print that? (Note: I am currently procrastinating)
15:38:29 <alise> \ae monospaced looks freaky.
15:40:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:49:51 <alise> Wow, someone actually made a non-sucking package manager for OS X.
15:49:58 <alise> And oklopol disappears!
15:50:38 <oklopol> i just remembered package managers are boring -------->
16:01:34 <alise> The past tense of the past tense of "shit".
16:02:32 <oerjan> (that works particularly well if you realize that norwegian æ is pronounced pretty close to the a in ass)
16:02:51 <pineapple> that;s what i thought you meant by "shat"
16:03:52 <alise> anyway i meant shut
16:05:14 <oerjan> an ø would be closer for that
16:06:15 <oerjan> (the stereotypically bad norwegian english accent would pronounce shut with an ø)
16:07:40 <oerjan> hm even closer with british english, i presume
16:09:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
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16:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Will someone *please* remove the dead link in the welcome message?
16:15:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is.
16:17:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
16:17:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:18:48 <alise> http://loremipsum.net/screenshots/fullpromote.jpg
16:18:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a map with us folk
16:19:59 <pineapple> wow, Leeds held on for a while there...
16:20:46 -!- oerjan has left (?).
16:20:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:20:50 <Sgeo_> There's someone in another channel with the nickname Leeds
16:21:57 * Sgeo_ thought void foo(); meant something stupid like a variable number of arguments?
16:22:59 <oerjan> now it gives a link to the wiki instead
16:24:25 <alise> You can't do that to our tradition!
16:28:11 <Sgeo_> How light can desktop computers get?
16:28:36 <oerjan> well if they get too light they would float off
16:29:22 <oerjan> i suppose you could glue them to the desktop to fix that
16:29:53 * Sgeo_ has a table that this laptop is currently resting on
16:30:04 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I'd trust it with a heavy computer
16:30:10 -!- oklopol has left (?).
16:30:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
16:30:37 <pineapple> Sgeo_: probably about 4kg is the lower limit
16:30:53 <pineapple> and that's for all 4 main components (base unit, monitor, keyboard, mouse)
16:30:57 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_: () does indicate variable args.
16:31:10 <Sgeo_> Oh right, keyboard
16:31:15 <alise> pineapple: hmm, i think you are wrong
16:31:21 <alise> those holographic keyboard things are quite light aren't they?
16:31:21 * Sgeo_ is not sure how that will fit on the table
16:31:25 <alise> they're meant to be portable after all
16:31:34 <alise> tiny tiny mouse = no weight
16:31:39 <pineapple> so that's not much of the total weight
16:31:44 <alise> pineapple: monitor... you can get tiny 8" "portable" monitors
16:32:03 <alise> the computer itself can be less than 1kg.
16:32:12 <alise> (see: e.g. every lightweight laptop)
16:32:12 <pineapple> i was assuming something like a reasonable tft
16:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, how do you indicate "takes any args" in C99, then?
16:32:24 <alise> pineapple: then basically we're just measuring weight(tft) + epsilon :P
16:32:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...
16:32:33 <alise> just like best practice in c89
16:32:40 <alise> int foo(int abc, int def, ...);
16:32:48 <alise> note you must have at least one argument when using varargs
16:33:01 <Sgeo_> I want a good gaming computer
16:34:17 <pineapple> can a pointer to void be a valid argument to a function?
16:34:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's useless unless there's at least one argument to tell you how to understand the rest
16:36:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: any old junk?
16:37:05 <alise> a variadic function MUST have at least one argument.
16:37:08 <alise> or it is undefined behaviour
16:37:37 <alise> also, I'm pretty sure you have to process every argument before ending a variadic function, so you have to have e.g. either a terminator such as NULL or have the first argument be the number of following arguments
16:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> But how do you allow the function to take absolutely any arguments whatsoever?
16:42:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But it makes perfect sense in the context of x86 calling conventions.
16:42:09 <oklopol> if you need to process them all, then you can't
16:44:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: tough shit, this is C, there are rules, albeit very few of them
16:44:29 <alise> if you want to work on only x86/gcc, write anything that compiles
16:44:44 <alise> char *foo(...) { return "Fuck you, C"; }
16:45:57 <alise> The new album from Radiohead; a sequel to "OK Computer"... the stunning, critically acclaimed...
16:56:20 <Phantom_Hoover> !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo())}
16:56:34 <alise> !c int fuck() { return 0; } int main() { fuck(1,2,3,"abc"); }
16:56:46 <alise> hmm may need a newline between functions
16:56:51 <alise> !c int fuck() { return 0; } int main() { fuck(1,2,3,"abc"); printf("Sex robots\n"); }
16:57:04 <Mathnerd314> !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo());}
16:57:22 <alise> !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo("FUCKING","POGO","STICKS","RRRRRRRRRRRRNGH"));}
16:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> !c char *foo(...){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo());}
16:57:30 <alise> Note that this is all undefined.
16:57:37 <alise> Passing a function more arguments than it takes? Yeah, undefined.
16:57:40 <alise> Good luck. Have fun.
16:58:22 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for c!
17:02:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:04:16 <ais523> pikhq: I lost in the second round in the Pokémon tournament, in the end
17:04:23 <alise> ais523: aw, bad luck!
17:04:34 <alise> ais523: ...so perl6 has * now, meaning... anything? apparently you can use it to select "any item of a list" or something
17:04:38 <ais523> he had a pretty good team (RNGed like mine was), and outpredicted me on the second turn
17:04:40 <alise> does it pick a random element or something?
17:04:45 <ais523> alise: * has meant "anything" for a while
17:04:56 <alise> so does @foo[*] work?
17:04:59 <ais523> and it's a sort-of quantifier, in a sence
17:05:08 <ais523> @foo[*] means "every element in @foo"
17:05:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, in order to get the teams in the first place
17:05:35 <ais523> the in-battle RNG hasn't been hacked, and anyway it would be impossible to control the seed in tournament conditions
17:06:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: http://shaym.in/apps/iv_checker if you're interested
17:06:21 <ais523> I wrote that, although I'm not hosting it
17:07:03 <ais523> basically you enter the stats you want and it says "set your game to such and such a date and time, start with a delay of such and such a time period, use the nth seed to get your Pokémon"
17:08:17 <alise> @foo[?] = any elemnt
17:08:44 <cheater99> is that cute or what http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs208.snc1/7535_159039461451_520306451_2810195_1099162_n.jpg
17:09:48 <alise> ais523: I'm trying to get it to give me the shittiest magikarp imaginable :(
17:10:25 * Sgeo_ has never played Pokemon stuff (except Pokemon Snap, with a friend, a long time ago)
17:10:35 <Sgeo_> But I have read books (again, a long time ago)
17:11:30 <Mathnerd314> alise: I think * means both and you can use any() or all() to switch
17:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99: That's taken from Facebook, as far as I can tell.
17:12:14 <alise> ais523: I want IVs from Stats right?
17:12:25 <ais523> alise: probably the other way round
17:12:31 <ais523> and it'll give you the minimum stats
17:12:38 <alise> ais523: tried that, it didn't give me any RNG options
17:12:52 <ais523> alise: what nature did you set?
17:12:58 <ais523> most natures are impossible with any given set of IVs
17:13:01 <ais523> it's one of the way you hack-check
17:13:08 <ais523> e.g. a flawless Pokémon has to be either Modest or Timid
17:13:16 <alise> unspecified characteristic right?
17:13:16 <ais523> there's probably a similar restriction on an anti-flawless Pokémon
17:13:24 <ais523> you don't care about that
17:13:29 <ais523> nor hidden power, probably
17:13:43 <alise> brave 0-level 0-hp 0-atk 0-def 0-spa 0-spd 0-spe brave(! :D) magikarp
17:14:10 <alise> Seed 5DD69706, delay 12238, frame 7 gives hp 10, atk 5, def 5, spa 5, spd 5, spe 4
17:14:15 <alise> that's rubbish :((
17:14:22 <ais523> that's close to the minimum possible
17:14:28 <ais523> (brave raises atk and reduces spe)
17:14:34 * alise tries other natures
17:14:41 <ais523> all natures are either neutral
17:14:44 <ais523> or raise one stat and drop one
17:14:53 <alise> docile gives hp 10, all others 5
17:15:02 <ais523> brave is the worst possible, then
17:15:06 <ais523> if its atk boost isn't doing anything
17:15:07 <alise> hasty gives all 5 except def=4
17:15:12 <ais523> then you may as well factor in the spe or def drop
17:15:23 <ais523> also, 12238 is a painfully high delay
17:15:36 <ais523> given that 60 is one second, and 3600 is one minute
17:15:41 <ais523> you'd be waiting for ages on the title screen
17:15:59 <cheater99> i cannot believe you people would rather talk about pokemon than hot chicks
17:16:03 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> (I have an irrational fear of Perl and PHP)
17:16:03 <Sgeo_> <yath> PUT PHP AND PERL INTO THE SAME SENTENCE
17:16:36 <cheater99> Sgeo_, what about perl php and coldfusion?
17:16:39 <alise> ais523: so skip ahead with a simulator
17:16:48 <Sgeo_> <yath> php is just a nice invention to keep the dumbasses away from perl
17:16:52 <ais523> alise: that would defeat the point of controlling the RNG
17:16:55 <alise> anyway 3.399{4r} minutes isn't so bad
17:17:10 <ais523> the problem is being accurate to 1/60 of a second after that long
17:17:13 <alise> ais523: so what's the absolute worst pokemon I can get, do you know?
17:17:21 <alise> presumably not a magikarp, if it has a whole 10hp and ~5 stats
17:17:26 <ais523> hmm, there are some that are very bad
17:17:32 <ais523> if you just care about low stats, try sunkern
17:17:35 <alise> magikarp has the advantage of having no attacks
17:17:44 <Sgeo_> I actually have a book on ColdFusion somewhere
17:17:47 <cheater99> why do you need the worst ever pokemon?
17:17:47 <ais523> alise: Unown has fewer
17:17:47 <alise> (attacks are generally considered bad because they can be used to hurt the other pokemon, which might upset it)
17:17:53 <ais523> although it deals damage
17:17:57 <alise> cheater99: KINDNESS
17:18:00 <Deewiant> In the new ones magikarp learns tackle, doesn't it?
17:18:01 <ais523> alise: Unown learns a grand total of 1 attack
17:18:05 <ais523> as opposed to Magikarp's 4
17:18:09 <ais523> (splash, tackle, bounce, flail)
17:18:11 <Deewiant> Magikarp used to learn only Splash
17:18:20 <ais523> it's learnt Tackle at lv.15 forever
17:18:22 <alise> ais523: what's the difference between 1, j and k
17:18:31 <ais523> alise: depends on how you're catching the Pokémon
17:18:45 <alise> wait, magikarps aren't always completely useless?
17:18:47 <ais523> in the case of Magikarp, you're probably fishing, so J on Diamond/Pearl/Platinum and K on HeartGold and SoulSilver
17:18:51 <alise> oh my god I want a level 100 magikarp now <3
17:18:59 <alise> ais523: pah, what about us sapphire owners
17:19:01 <ais523> alise: there's a Magikarp sweep on Youtube somewhere
17:19:03 <pikhq> alise: Magikarp can also learn Surf.
17:19:11 <alise> admittedly i have one of the ds ones
17:19:11 <pikhq> And Surf is actually a *good* move.
17:19:12 <ais523> alise: Sapphire uses method 1, 2, 3, or 4, but the reasoning behind which hasn't been determined yet
17:19:21 <Deewiant> I thought it only learned Splash back in Gen 1
17:19:23 <ais523> Gyarados does, Magikarp doesn't because it doesn't learn TMs and HMs
17:19:29 <pikhq> ais523: ... Wait, a water type that doesn't learn surf?
17:19:34 <pikhq> God damn Magikarp sucks.
17:19:38 <Deewiant> Well, Kakuna and company only learn Harden
17:19:45 <alise> what's the max stats for the various ones? I know little of pokeman's workings
17:19:50 <ais523> and Unown only learns Hidden Power
17:19:56 <Deewiant> Hidden Power's an attack, though
17:20:00 <Deewiant> Kakuna's incapable of doing any damage
17:20:01 <alise> HIDDEN BECAUSE IT CAN'T DO SHIT LOL
17:20:02 <ais523> alise: you can look up the max stats for a particular Pokémon
17:20:07 <pikhq> alise: I'm pretty sure the breeding mechanic lets you get a Magikarp with other moves.
17:20:10 <ais523> Deewiant: Kakuna can be tutored Bug Bite, IIRC
17:20:16 <ais523> pikhq: it's restricted to Bounce
17:20:21 <Deewiant> ais523: Not in Gen 1, at least according to Bulbapedia
17:20:23 <pikhq> (not positive, though, because I never tried)
17:20:31 <ais523> http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/magikarp/moves
17:20:34 <pikhq> ais523: God damn Magikarp sucks.
17:20:36 <ais523> two in gen 1, splash and tackle
17:20:42 <ais523> flail came up later, bounce is a tutor move IIRC
17:20:47 <alise> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magikarp_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Pok.C3.A9dex_entries_2 HAHAHAHA the pokedex fucking hates magikarp
17:20:56 <alise> You're a horribly weak, pathetic Pokemon! Die the fuck out already!
17:21:08 <alise> click the link, it has them all
17:21:09 <pikhq> ais523: There's also that one move you get when you're out of PP. :)
17:21:10 <Deewiant> Before gen 4 Kakuna learned only Harden; but yeah, in 4 it can be tutored stuff
17:21:19 <alise> It evolves into Gyarados starting at level 20.
17:21:22 <alise> you can avoid evolving right?
17:21:28 <alise> but can you get a level 100 magikarp
17:21:30 <ais523> if you want a bit of fun, http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kakuna
17:21:57 <alise> someone complete the game with just ridiculously overpowered magikarps, please
17:22:03 * pikhq was fond of level 100 Gyarados, though
17:22:08 <ais523> Deewiant: it can have poison sting and string shot if it evolved from a weedle
17:22:13 <alise> FUCK GYRADOS magikarp is superior
17:22:14 <pikhq> alise: I shall in a bit.
17:22:36 <pikhq> When I sit down and play Pokemon Green.
17:22:53 <ais523> I just love the strategy analysis for kakuna, anyway
17:23:02 <ais523> I think it was originally a reaction to a bout of trolling
17:23:11 <ais523> where someone repeatedly claimed kakuna should have an analysis
17:23:36 <alise> pikhq: Bah, oldschool is for wimps
17:23:44 <Deewiant> Does metapod have one too? :-P
17:23:46 <alise> Sapphire was the best Pokemon game frrlz (I assert this because I have it)
17:23:51 <alise> OH MY GOD level 100 metapod
17:24:06 <Deewiant> Metapod is essentially equivalent to Kakuna
17:24:31 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think so
17:24:44 <alise> magikarp / metapod / kakuna TEAM OF WINNERS
17:24:52 <Deewiant> Okay, so they're a bit different
17:24:56 <Deewiant> But they have the same moveset
17:25:05 <alise> pronun=<math>Ka-KOO-nuh</math>|
17:25:18 <alise> Oh, wait, this isn't bulbapedia
17:25:22 <alise> It's some wikia thing
17:25:24 <Sgeo_> "With Python, you might be forced to use nano!" "When?" "If, say, the customer doesn't have vim installed"
17:25:24 <ais523> other humorous analyses include http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/unown and http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/luvdisc
17:25:41 <ais523> luvdisc is amusing because it's very fast and its other moves are pathetic
17:25:49 <ais523> and its only good moves are those that raise Speed
17:25:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:26:07 <alise> Speed doubles in rain.
17:26:08 <alise> Oh that's just greaT
17:26:38 <ais523> yes, it's actually a useful ability
17:27:14 <ais523> "Luvdisc is great if you're playing with Battle Timeout, because its mere presence should cause your opponent to laugh at it for so long that you win the match."
17:27:43 * Sgeo_ knows little about Pokemon
17:27:52 <Deewiant> You can teach it surf and ice beam and stuff, it can't be bad
17:27:57 * alise remembers his automatic-virtual-server-for-one-command thing
17:27:58 <Sgeo_> Except that there are Pokemon named Mew and Mewtoo/Mew2/?
17:28:16 <alise> Sgeo_: play the pokemon games immediately.
17:28:19 <alise> also, it's mewtwo.
17:28:24 <pikhq> And you're how old?
17:28:38 <pikhq> HOW DID YOU NOT PLAY POKEMON
17:28:47 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:29:08 <Sgeo_> I never had a handheld game thing
17:29:19 <pikhq> HOW DID YOU NOT PLAY POKEMON
17:29:20 <Deewiant> I only played it on an emulator
17:29:41 <Sgeo_> Does Pokemon Snap count?
17:30:22 <alise> Get a Pokemon game.
17:30:36 <Deewiant> Buying a DS just for Pokémon is a bit of a waste IMO
17:30:49 <pikhq> Deewiant: I bought a GBC just for Pokemon.
17:31:01 <Deewiant> I tend to get bored of the Pokémon games pretty quickly
17:31:05 <pikhq> It then got used for other games, but still.
17:31:17 <alise> Deewiant: The DS is good anyway, so eh
17:31:20 <alise> It's not so bad, at least.
17:31:26 <pikhq> I had an obsession about that game...
17:31:29 <alise> You could get a GBA really cheap though I bet
17:31:32 <alise> Although I'd get a GBA SP
17:31:37 <alise> the GBA's lack of a backlight was stupidity personified
17:31:38 <Deewiant> Well, if you can think of uses for it / other games to play, sure
17:31:42 <ais523> an original DS should be pretty cheap by now
17:31:50 <ais523> alise: nothing before the GBA had a backlight either
17:31:54 <alise> yeah but i have a soft spot before the gba sp :P
17:31:56 * pikhq has played through Blue and Gold at least 3 times each.
17:32:00 <alise> ais523: but the gba had more colour detail
17:32:03 <alise> so it had more darker areas
17:32:06 <alise> for e.g. grass and stuff
17:32:16 <Deewiant> What about the original GB? :-P
17:32:25 <pikhq> ais523: Uh... Game Gear?
17:32:39 <ais523> I meant, no Nintendo portable
17:32:45 <ais523> rather than nothing in general
17:32:53 <pikhq> Uh, the Gameboy Light?
17:32:55 <alise> Slight disadvantage to the GB: Tetris and Pokemon, ok, you can throw it away now
17:33:15 <alise> pikhq: Buy an SNES
17:33:30 <pikhq> alise: Also true, but the Zelda games for it were good.
17:33:40 <ais523> pikhq: the GBA had a little attachable light too that pointed at the front
17:33:43 <ais523> powered by its battery
17:33:45 <alise> ais523: it was shit, though.
17:33:53 <pikhq> ais523: The Gameboy Light was a backlight Gameboy Pocket.
17:33:57 <ais523> it was good enough to play in the dark, but still awful
17:34:00 <Sgeo_> My dad found a PSP that he might give me. Can Pokemon games run on that?
17:34:10 <ais523> Sony rather than Nintendo
17:34:15 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yes, emulator.
17:34:40 <alise> The PSP is shitty though
17:34:48 <alise> Quite heavy, and uh... rubbish controls... and rubbish everything...
17:34:50 <alise> and it sucks dick...
17:35:39 <ais523> Sgeo_ (or anyone else here): I'll play you on a simulator if you like
17:35:59 <alise> I'll play! VirtualBoy Advance doesn't work on Linux right?
17:36:02 <Sgeo_> Would doing that involve anything illegal?
17:36:17 <Deewiant> alise: It works through wine IIRC
17:36:21 <alise> Although ais523 probably legally scanned his ROM or something
17:36:30 <ais523> alise: I mean the ones that do the game mechanics separately
17:36:37 <ais523> which avoid copyright trouble because they're a reimplementation
17:36:39 <ais523> rather htan the original code
17:36:43 <Sgeo_> Would doing whatever involve something that could easily make me get caught (and I count BitTorrent in that)
17:36:48 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
17:36:52 <ais523> Sgeo_: at least my way's legal
17:36:53 <Deewiant> Oh, those exist? Should've guessed I suppose
17:36:59 <alise> lol @ bittorrent easily get caught
17:37:01 <ais523> Deewiant: at least three
17:37:13 <alise> sometimes sgeo is funny. othertimes i just want to bash my head against a brick wall
17:37:17 <alise> ais523: http://birdiesoft.dk/software.php?id=2 high-tech
17:37:19 <Sgeo_> Although I guess for more obscure things, the liklihood is low
17:37:26 <alise> the likelihood is ~0
17:37:35 <ais523> bittorrent has other nasty side effects
17:37:42 <ais523> like getting your ISP to throttle you for the rest of the mont
17:37:48 <ais523> for using too much bandwidth
17:37:50 <alise> only if you have a shitty isp
17:37:56 <alise> any isp that does that is irrevocably evil
17:38:06 <Sgeo_> don't know if it does that
17:38:17 <Sgeo_> Oh, and I can't open any ports on the router
17:38:52 <pikhq> alise: My ISP is irrevocably evil.
17:39:19 <pikhq> Though it's a function of "you used too much bandwidth; no bandwidth for you!" rather than "you used Bittorrent; no bandwidth for you!"
17:39:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:39:42 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
17:40:06 <alise> MOAR LIEK A "DYS"FUNCTION LOL
17:41:15 <Mathnerd314> is bandwidth expensive or something? why do people throttle it?
17:41:32 <ais523> probably because they don't have enough for all their customers
17:42:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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17:43:10 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: US ISPs prefer to make 0 improvements on infrastructure.
17:43:21 <pikhq> "It was good enough in '95, it's good enough now!"
17:44:10 <alise> what's the language code for latin?
17:44:21 <alise> & is it correct to mark Lorem Ipsum filler in it? :-)
17:44:32 <ais523> lorem ipsum isn't latin any more
17:44:35 <Deewiant> Only if it's Latin instead of pseudo-Latin
17:44:37 <alise> yes, but it's not english either
17:44:43 <alise> and there's no pseudo-la :-)
17:44:52 <ais523> it's a latin poem, but its letter frequency distribution was changed to that of English
17:45:02 <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English
17:45:06 <alise> I'd mark "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit." as Latin
17:45:25 <alise> but I guess if even the spelling is wrong...
17:46:09 <alise> dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit
17:46:25 <ais523> alise: that's great filler
17:46:27 <alise> so some words are actually intact... "do" is dropped from one word, and "ng" added to another
17:46:39 <ais523> the one you'd mark as English, that is
17:46:44 -!- melnibo_ has left (?).
17:46:54 <alise> Bobbington eathly worked EXCREM un;to
17:47:04 <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:47:57 <ais523> `addquote <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:48:07 <HackEgo> 167|<alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:48:17 <alise> hey, usually we put two spaces before the next message! :P (kidding)
17:49:09 <alise> grr, stupid parsers
17:53:57 <alise> WHY WON'T YOU WORK!
17:59:51 * Sgeo_ monadically parses alise
18:00:01 <alise> I'll monad your parsec
18:01:55 <Sgeo_> alise, http://torrentfreak.com/hurt-locker-makers-sue-5000-bittorrent-users-100529/
18:02:33 <ais523> alise: btw, you can hover your mouse over the delay in that IV checker to give you the corresponding time and date
18:02:44 <alise> Sgeo_: so basically they sued a ton of people without actually knowing shit about them
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18:04:41 <alise> Cupidtino will launch in June 2010 exclusively on Apple platforms Safari, iPhone and iPad apps. Its time to share the love.
18:04:50 <alise> It's ... it actually seems to be real
18:04:59 <alise> It's been in the WSJ
18:05:31 <alise> "Is it wrong for a straight guy to *want* to watch Sex & the City?" --@cupidtinoCA
18:06:19 <alise> http://online.wsj.com/media/cupidtino_D_20100507111722.jpg
18:08:33 <Sgeo_> How do you release something exclusively for Safari?
18:09:39 <Sgeo_> Also, Safari on Windows exists.
18:11:53 <ais523> setting something up so it works on Safari yet not, say, Chrome or Epiphany seems tricky without resorting to tricks like user-agent sniffing
18:13:29 <ais523> alise: what do you think about Apple overtaking Microsoft in market capitalization?
18:13:37 <ais523> ofc, it's not the only measure of success, but I'm pretty amazed at it
18:13:43 <alise> ais523: You're joking.
18:13:54 <ais523> nah, it was all over the tech news
18:14:04 <alise> Well, nobody likes MS much.
18:15:08 * Sgeo_ is using their Operating System
18:15:23 <ais523> http://online.barrons.com/article/SB127508624930598443.html for instance
18:15:45 <ais523> also interesting is that Apple now has the second-highest market cap of any publicly-traded US company, after ExxonMobil
18:15:55 <ais523> quite a few people think it's a bubble, but it's still surprising
18:16:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:17:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:17:22 <cheater99> i have just found a hot chick on facebook
18:17:31 <cheater99> she has the same last name as i do
18:18:35 <Sgeo_> I rarely add people I don't know IRL to Facebook
18:18:42 <ais523> I'm not even a member of Facebook
18:18:46 <alise> cheater99: I hear they don't call it incest any more
18:19:26 <Sgeo_> No, this is scary: http://sshkeygen.com/
18:19:53 <oklopol> ais523: why scary? i just think it's pointless
18:20:11 <ais523> oklopol: have you seen what they do with the information stored there?
18:20:19 <ais523> also, how they put a huge amount of pressure on people not to leave
18:21:40 <Sgeo_> Should I admit that I just checked alise's profile on Reddit?
18:23:05 <Sgeo_> You mentioned Steve Pavlina
18:23:21 <Sgeo_> He's the guy who took down Dexterity Games to run some self-improvement articles
18:23:37 <ais523> mentioning Steve Pavlina makes Sgeo check your Reddit profile?
18:24:08 <alise> all I know about steve pavlina is that his forums are shit and that he polyphased successfully.
18:24:19 * Sgeo_ misses dexterity.com
18:24:22 <ais523> I don't have a Reddit profile, so it might be hard for him or her to do so
18:27:07 <ais523> years of habit on the Internet often give me a sudden burst of revulsion when I use a gendered pronoun for anything
18:27:27 <oklopol> "<ais523> also, how they put a huge amount of pressure on people not to leave" <<< what do you mean?
18:28:01 <alise> ais523: why not just use "they"?
18:28:24 * Sgeo_ ponders how best to force ais523 to use a gendered pronoun
18:28:32 <ais523> oklopol: if you leave Facebook, it goes and tells all your friends you defriended them
18:28:48 <ais523> and that's considered a really bad thing by most Facebook users
18:28:55 <Sgeo_> People generally don't know when someone defriends someone
18:29:04 <ais523> Sgeo_: you know if someone defriends /you/
18:29:09 <Sgeo_> Unless they're using [say] a Greasemonkey script
18:29:34 <ais523> Sgeo_: I don't know this from personal experience
18:29:36 <Sgeo_> I have NEVER gotten a notice that I was defriended
18:29:44 <ais523> well, maybe nobody's ever defriended you
18:29:45 <Sgeo_> Even though I'm certain it's happened
18:29:51 <ais523> it's not a common thing to do on Facebook, it seems
18:29:59 <Sgeo_> There's a Greasemonkey script for it
18:30:22 <ais523> it would be obvious anyway, when they weren't marked as a friend when you tried to view their profile info
18:30:25 <alise> "Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco", which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars." --Norton I of the United States, Protector of Mexico
18:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523: I don't recall getting a message when I was defriended.
18:30:36 <ais523> (although lately, Facebook by default shows all your info to everyone regardless of if they're friends or not...)
18:30:38 <alise> Sorry, *NORTON I, Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
18:30:40 <Sgeo_> But that's not the same as getting a notice
18:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: That iw.net link is *not* the worst-designed website.
18:31:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please see parent comment
18:31:24 <alise> It's Archimedes Plutonium's website.
18:31:29 <alise> The whole universe is a plutonium atom, as we all know.
18:31:44 <ais523> wait, this is #esoteric, not #esoteric!
18:31:49 <Sgeo_> Archimedes Plutonium?
18:32:06 <ais523> theories like that are the wrong sort of esoteric
18:32:37 <alise> ais523: you're the wrong sort of esoteric
18:33:13 <ais523> hmm, now I'm vaguely wondering if there are any websites which look fine and have no major problems, apart from being designed completely awfully
18:33:18 <alise> "When, during the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, the League accused Benito Mussolini's soldiers of targeting Red Cross medical tents, Mussolini responded that Ethiopians were not fully human, therefore the human rights laws did not apply."
18:33:21 <ais523> (don't link me to one if you know one)
18:33:45 <Sgeo_> Even the music of the bridal site is ugly
18:33:53 <ais523> alise: surely the Red Cross weren't necessarily Ethiopian? Even discarding the premises being wrong, the reasoning is also wrong
18:34:15 <Sgeo_> Oh, that may have been because another tab was open
18:34:24 <Sgeo_> Yeah, not a good site to browse with tabs
18:34:44 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nort10d.jpg I'd love one of these.
18:35:45 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:36:53 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Frank_chu_20060423.JPG Okay sir
18:37:27 -!- pikhq has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:37:44 <alise> His signs change from day to day, and tend to go through syntactically-similar phases, with the phrase "12 Galaxies" being his trademark and a constant presence in the signs. In June 2007, Chu broke from this tradition and started replacing this with "85 Galaxies"[14], "130 Galaxies"[15], "800 Galaxies"[16], then "1000 Galaxies"[17]. At the 2007 Castro Halloween Party, Chu's sign claimed "7,645,000 Galaxies", at MacWorld 2008 he was up to 75,850,000[18], and
18:37:45 <alise> at the Iraq War protest on March 19, 2008 he was up to 8,685,000,000[19].
18:37:48 <alise> OH GOD WHEN WILL THE GALAXIES END
18:37:59 <zzo38> Perhaps make esolang with mahjong tiles, or tarot cards, or Washizu mahjong tiles
18:38:21 <ais523> mahjong would work quite well
18:38:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:38:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what did you change?
18:39:00 <ais523> thought so, so I was wondering what happened
18:39:09 <ais523> it should be impossible to change the topic to itself...
18:39:18 -!- alise has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:40:59 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know exactly how, but maybe with tenpai operator and so on, and also, perhaps the different tile can also correspond to different command too, or maybe something else
18:41:44 <zzo38> Washizu mahjong means some of the tiles are transparent (I actually have a mahjong set like this, although it first appeared in manga before anyone actually made them)
18:42:18 <zzo38> In fact, I own three sets of mahjong tiles
18:43:10 <zzo38> In Washizu mahjong the gloves are necessary, otherwise you can feel the tiles by your hand before you pick them up, and you can cheat
18:43:54 <cheater99> alise, what do they call it then? ^_^
18:44:04 <zzo38> Yes, they are engraved, they can be felt
18:45:55 <zzo38> If you are good at it, yes
18:46:44 <zzo38> No, only two are Japanese. One is for American mahjong. (I never play American mahjong however, but if someone wanted to play American mahjong, I could do so)
18:51:10 * Sgeo_ should probably shave at some point
18:51:35 <zzo38> Do you like to play solitaire card? I have invented a few (including a cardset to go with it), but I have not typed a description of the rules yet
18:51:45 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
18:51:53 <zzo38> Perhaps I should post screenshots of the cardsets and stuff
18:52:35 <Sgeo_> Biggest problem with colored nicks: When the nicks are the same color, it can be confusing. If all nicks were the same color, I'd be paying attention to each line's nick, and not have this problem
18:52:41 <Sgeo_> I thought zzo38 was ais523
18:52:50 <zzo38> There is 1 cardset and 6 games so far (in 2 ruleset files, each containing 3 games, which are similar with each-other in the same file)
18:53:03 <ais523> Sgeo_: I don't see how you can possibly muddle zzo38 with anyone else in existence
18:54:04 <zzo38> ais523: Perhaps because of the digits at the end of "zzo38" and "ais523"? I don't know. Also, I am not cloaked (they won't give me the cloak I ask)
18:54:36 <pikhq> Sgeo_: zzo38 is a most unique individual. Hard to mistake.
18:55:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to zzo523.
18:55:50 <zzo38> The cloak I ask is forward DNS cloak, and they don't do forward DNS cloaks here.
18:56:24 <zzo38> (The default when connecting is reverse DNS)
18:56:54 -!- coppro has joined.
18:56:55 -!- zzo523 has changed nick to ais523.
18:57:02 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:57:47 <alise> if you want to see who zzo38 is, just look for someone awesome
18:58:39 <zzo38> alise: I doubt that will work, there is too many of everything like that
18:58:49 <alise> name another awesome person in this room
18:59:06 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
18:59:46 <ais523> at least half of us are awesome in one way or another
18:59:54 <ais523> but I don't think anyone's awesome in quite the same way zzo38 is
19:00:05 <ais523> except zzo38 of course
19:00:06 <alise> ok then, to figure out who zzo38 is look for someone who's zzawesome
19:02:25 <alise> GRR!! PARSERS ARE BROKEN 'N SHIT
19:03:13 <zzo38> If you want to see who I am, look for the guy with Pocket Monster Philosopohical Level. I might be the only guy that has one of those!
19:03:31 <alise> ais523: oh wow, you should play zzo38
19:03:53 <AnMaster> ever noticed how slow a gear ratio of 576:1 is?
19:04:06 <AnMaster> given reasonable input speeds for lego motors
19:04:06 <alise> ever noticed how slow a gear ratio of 1,000,000:1 is?
19:04:18 <zzo38> s/Philosopohical/Philosophical/
19:04:23 <pikhq> Ever noticed how impractical a gear ratio of infinity:1 is?
19:04:24 <AnMaster> alise, well that is a lot harder to achieve in lego.
19:04:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm, yeah hard to calculate on
19:04:38 <alise> pi:1 is just irrational HAW HAW HAW HAWH AWH IUAWHE IUAWHIUSFODJGKLSHGVKRLEGJH KLSE OIFOISDGH KSHJDSFL;KJKG
19:05:16 <AnMaster> alise, it is just that it is easy to connect two 24:1 together, which gives you 576:1
19:05:41 <alise> slab serifs are lovely <3
19:06:01 <alise> I oughtta use Museo Slab for a reason
19:06:05 <alise> I oughtta use Museo Slab for something
19:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to talk about typography again, I'm afraid I'll have to leave.
19:08:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Then leave. People like you are why much modern text burns to look at.
19:08:34 <oklopol> yeah, idiots like you are the reason some people are still using non-monospace fonts
19:09:11 <pikhq> oklopol: CJK languages work best with monospace.
19:09:16 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to watch some SG-1
19:09:21 <pikhq> Nay, *should not ever be anything but monospace*.
19:10:00 <pikhq> Vague grouping of Asian countries, including China, Japan, and Korea.
19:10:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:11:29 <pikhq> Been using monospace scripts forever.
19:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I am utterly indifferent to all matters typographical.
19:13:04 <pikhq> Utterly indifferent?
19:13:13 <pikhq> So you see nothing wrong with using nothing but MS Comic Sans?
19:15:10 <pikhq> oklopol is accusing typography nuts of keeping non-monospace fonts around.
19:15:39 * Sgeo_ goes to watch the SG-1 pilot
19:16:18 <pikhq> Let's be honest: most monospace fonts look... Odd.
19:17:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
19:17:36 <alise> just accept oklopol is crazy
19:17:40 <zzo38> I am using monospace for IRC
19:18:48 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:18:51 <uorygl> I am reading Wikipedia in a non-monospace font.
19:19:51 <zzo38> Maybe you can invent such a thing as non-monospace Befunge. However you should have to use always a specific spacing otherwise it won't work
19:20:10 <uorygl> Dispace Befunge. Every character has one of two widths.
19:20:34 <oklopol> i use monospace everywhere i can, but i don't know how to convert pdf's to it
19:20:41 <oklopol> maybe alise can help me with that
19:20:52 <uorygl> Why would you use monospace for Wikipedia?
19:21:05 <oklopol> so that it's easier to read
19:21:19 <oklopol> non-monospaced text is a pain to read
19:21:32 <pikhq> Uh... No, it's not?
19:21:45 <alise> <oklopol> maybe alise can help me with that
19:21:50 <alise> pikhq: oklopol does not have normal human anatomy
19:21:53 <uorygl> It's a pain to read if you're oklopol, it's not a pain to read if you're pikhq.
19:21:56 <pikhq> You're fucking kidding me.
19:22:09 <alise> pikhq just accept it
19:22:20 <oklopol> pikhq: i also like allcaps
19:22:34 <alise> OKLOPOL: ANYWAY YES PDFTOTEXT. ALSO, MAY I SAY,
19:22:36 <pikhq> oklopol: YOU DO NOT HAVE A NORMAL VISUAL CORTEX
19:22:36 <oklopol> if you used small allcaps, that would be better than non-allcaps
19:22:44 <alise> THAT IF YOU ARE EVER IN POSSESSION OF A MICROSOFT WORD DOCUMENT, AND DESIRE TO READ IT IN MONOSPACED TEXT,
19:22:55 <alise> OR WHATEVER IT IS CALLED
19:22:58 <alise> IT WILL PLEASE YOU MOST GREATLY.
19:23:40 <oklopol> i never use word documents but good to know
19:27:03 <oklopol> most letters are okay, but when i see an i, i throw up
19:27:25 <zzo38> I now added in screen-shots of the solitaire games http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
19:28:53 <zzo38> oklopol: ALL-CAPS works better in mono-space than non-mono-space in my opinion
19:29:09 <oklopol> yes X works better in mono-space
19:29:36 <oerjan> zzo38: your Deadfish Forth interpreter is not bug-for-bug compatible
19:30:15 <zzo38> oerjan: You may be right. I haven't tried to make it bug-for-bug compatible, however. (But fix it if you want to)
19:30:24 <zzo38> (It is wiki, so of course someone can fix it!)
19:31:27 <oerjan> oklopol: the original deadfish (in C) was weird, and many of the interpreters try to preserve the strange behavior
19:31:57 <oerjan> i don't really know forth, alas
19:32:18 <oerjan> but i note there is no broken wrapping on 256 :D
19:32:27 <oerjan> (or any wrapping for that matter)
19:32:44 <zzo38> Not all the interpreters on that page preserve the strange behavior, but some might do so
19:32:55 <zzo38> oerjan: You are right about no wrapping, however.
19:33:01 <zzo38> But it is not difficult to fix
19:33:10 <zzo38> I can fix it if you wanted it fixed, I suppose
19:34:39 <zzo38> There is one program I write which does try to preserve the old strange behavior, called CZZT. It tries to preserve the old strange behavior of ZZT by trying to implement it in the similar way to how I imagine Tim Sweeney to have originally implemented it. (The original source-code for ZZT was written in Pascal, and has been lost. My copy is in C, although I try to implement Pascal-style strings and such)
19:35:27 -!- lament has joined.
19:37:53 <zzo38> There, now I have implemented the broken wrapping. Is OK now?
19:39:16 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:40:13 -!- jcp has joined.
19:40:26 <zzo38> Actually, it doesn't output a newline after each number either, but maybe it is supposed to do that too
19:41:27 <oerjan> well i consider exact I/O compatibility more optional
19:42:04 <zzo38> Yes, I am considering the same
19:42:09 <oerjan> (although i've tried to do it in the ones i made)
19:43:04 <zzo38> Which ones did you make?
19:43:53 <oerjan> haskell, perl, unlambda
19:47:54 <zzo38> This particular Forth code is for Gforth. (Other Forth systems might not support the 'i' 'd' constants, although they could be added in, the thing in Forth is that you can add in stuff like that!)
19:49:26 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:49:28 <zzo38> Actually, some Forth systems are more minimal and there might be other things in this program it also doesn't support. However, any ANS-compliant Forth system should run it (possibly apart from the ' ' constants), since everything else in this program is ANS-compliant.
19:49:49 <zzo38> (Some non-ANS-compliant Forth systems might also run it)
19:50:08 <cheater99> my neighbor has introduced me to his friend's teen daughter
19:50:28 <zzo38> Hay! No cheating! Put the gloves like everyone else has to!
19:51:29 <cheater99> i'm definitely not wearing a glove with her
19:51:41 <cheater99> i want to feel every luscious square milimeter inside her
19:51:54 <zzo38> No, I mean the glove for mahjong
19:52:17 <cheater99> i definitely wouldn't play mahjongg with her
19:53:22 <cheater99> let's talk about encryption instead
19:54:02 <oerjan> cheater99: i think it's too late for you to start using encryption at this point
19:54:03 <cheater99> what's the longest password hash string you encounter when using the common algorithms?
19:54:30 <oerjan> well i guess it depends how old you are
19:55:14 <zzo38> HEXARC is a encryption algorithm that is like ARCFOUR however it run forward and backward simultaneously, uses initialization vectors, uses garbage data and propagation, and uses multiple passes (the number of passes is part of the password), and uses a 1000-bit key
19:55:32 * oerjan has this tendency to assume us by default
19:55:34 <cheater99> especially if her mom is an eastern european migrant who introduces me and then 10 minutes later remarks 'oh, then he's probably rich too!'
19:55:47 <cheater99> once that is said, she might as well be 12
19:56:37 <zzo38> (Actually, it uses a log2(256!) bit key)
19:58:21 <zzo38> Pictures of encryption algorithms?
19:58:33 <zzo38> How can you have pictures of that?
19:58:50 <oklopol> i've seen diagrams of sorts
19:58:54 <cheater99> he means 16-bit encryption algorithms
19:59:09 <cheater99> oklopol, look up the SELECT operator on wikipedia
19:59:14 <oerjan> zzo38: well that old one with twining papers around sticks seems pretty picturable
19:59:17 * pikhq is back on the Brainfuck compilation thing
19:59:38 <pikhq> This time, in Haskell, because optimising a parse tree is a bitch in C.
19:59:51 <pikhq> And just some pattern matching in Haskell.
19:59:56 <oklopol> cheater99: can you take pictures
19:59:57 <zzo38> oerjan: The ones with a physical process could have a photograph of the physical apparatus used to execute the encryption algorithm
20:01:20 <zzo38> I don't have a webcam on my computer, but if I did, I could use it to read QR codes. (I would also leave it unconnected while I am not using it, for at least two reasons)
20:01:26 <alise> pikhq: beat esotope
20:02:09 <pikhq> alise: Eventually, perhaps.
20:02:14 <zzo38> Is there anything in Linux you might be able to capture webcam pictures using a command such as: convert /dev/webcam out.jpg
20:02:27 <zzo38> (where "convert" is the ImageMagick convert command)
20:02:27 <pikhq> I intend to target assembly.
20:02:49 <pikhq> Because C compilers handle Brainfuck-compiled-to-C *poorly*.
20:03:04 <pikhq> Like, "load the pointer into a register for every instruction" poorly.
20:04:49 <alise> pikhq: target your own machine language
20:04:52 <alise> then compile that to asm
20:06:37 <alise> ais523: pikhq: how do you swap left and right audio channels in linux
20:06:49 <ais523> turn your computer upside-down
20:06:54 <ais523> (real answer: I don't know)
20:07:41 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know of anything like that, but it seems unlikely
20:07:49 <ais523> you would maybe have to write a kernel module specifically for that
20:08:23 <zzo38> ais523: Well, do you like this feature, if it were implemented?
20:08:30 <ais523> zzo38: yes, it's a clever idea
20:08:43 <ais523> I'm not sure how you use a webcam at all under Linux...
20:08:44 <alise> zzo38: you would like plan 9
20:09:05 <alise> i have to have my speakers wrong way around
20:09:07 <alise> due to cord length :D
20:09:09 <zzo38> Another feature I would like to use is something that allows you to copy to clipboard using a command such as: ls > /proc/X/9p/CLIPBOARD
20:09:12 <alise> so i need to swap the two channels
20:09:25 <ais523> alise: is it physically possible to swap the wire connections?
20:09:32 <ais523> or do you need a software solution?
20:09:39 <alise> ais523: only if i crack open the speakers
20:09:44 <alise> i know there is a software solution
20:09:44 <zzo38> I suppose it is always possible to swap the wire if you can cut the wires and stuff like that, at least.
20:09:46 <alise> i'm just not sure what it is
20:09:49 <ais523> (also, what's wrong with mirror-reflected sound? are you playing Pokémon or something?)
20:09:59 <alise> How can I tell ALSA to swap the left and right stereo channels on my soundcard?
20:09:59 <alise> Add this to your ~/.asoundrc file:
20:09:59 <alise> slave.pcm "cards.pcm.default"
20:10:07 <alise> do alsa settings still work for pulseaudio systems?
20:10:14 <alise> also, why do you need correct sound for pokemon?
20:10:23 <ais523> alise: because sounds come from the left if they're to do with your team
20:10:28 <ais523> or from the right to do with the opponent's
20:10:34 <ais523> it's very weird if you put your headphones on backwards
20:10:42 <alise> i always just use the little speaker
20:10:52 <ais523> you have to set the options for stereo sound, but that might be the default for all I know
20:11:13 <zzo38> Which generation of pokemon game did you mean?
20:11:19 <ais523> zzo38: all since second
20:11:32 <alise> ooh, we need The #esoteric Times
20:11:38 <pikhq> Currently, I've got the infrastructure for this set up, and for testing purposes, it just outputs Brainfuck after optimisations.
20:11:50 <ais523> optimising BF into BF?
20:11:58 <ais523> or into BF-plus-extra-instructions?
20:12:03 <zzo38> I have written optimize BF into BF in JavaScript.
20:12:25 <pikhq> ais523: Just BF. It's more a test to make sure my parser is correct than anything else.
20:12:32 <ais523> can anyone think of an obvious use for a BF pessimizer?
20:12:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Why the hell does google not search for non-alphanumerics??
20:12:45 <ais523> I can't, but if anyone can, it's us
20:12:55 <pikhq> Though it is quite nice for dealing with poorly auto-generated code.
20:13:01 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover, because they strip it before indexing
20:13:39 <zzo38> Some people might write code the "most pessimum" in order to make the speed correctly
20:14:05 <alise> How can I reverse my left and right speaker channels?
20:14:06 <alise> This is the same as "reverse stereo", where the left and right channels are to be swapped.
20:14:06 <alise> cat /proc/asound/cards and use the name string for the device you wish to use (the one in square brackets)
20:14:06 <alise> Edit /etc/pulse/default.pa and comment out module-hal-detect and module-detect lines.
20:14:07 <alise> Search for the commented-out line that starts "#load-module module-alsa-sink", uncomment it and change it to
20:14:10 <alise> load-module module-alsa-sink device=hw:[answer from step 0] channel_map=right,left
20:14:12 <alise> Restart the pulseaudio deamon by running pulseaudio -k; pulseaudio -D
20:14:38 <zzo38> Which probably shouldn't be done on modern computers however, except possibly if you are programming a GameBoy program or something like that, in which the CPU speed will always be the same way anyways
20:15:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: don't say that, he's probably trying to stalk me.
20:16:03 <alise> cheater99: lol, hi.
20:16:08 <alise> didn't you hate me or something
20:17:22 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/bgPQ
20:17:26 <pikhq> Now for a code generator!
20:17:29 <cheater99> you were totally my sweet, sweet bottom
20:19:35 <cheater99> btw, those taste very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_melon
20:21:48 <alise> pikhq: too many newlines.
20:21:56 <alise> shitty if/else indentation; use | guards instead
20:22:43 <alise> does anyone know how to nuke pulseaudio so that my ubuntu box uses alsa. i am sick of this shit fo shur
20:23:40 <Deewiant> I'd do pretty (Add x:xs) = case compare x 0 of EQ -> ... LT -> ... GT -> ...
20:23:56 <pikhq> Hmm. Code generator's going to be annoying.
20:23:58 <alise> pretty (Add x:xs) | x < 0 = ...
20:24:38 <pikhq> Might work best with State.
20:24:49 <Deewiant> If x is a floating-point number all of those could be false ;-P
20:24:51 <alise> pikhq: I tell you: have your own intermediate language
20:24:55 <alise> Deewiant: It isn't
20:25:09 <pikhq> alise: Still need it for label generation.
20:25:10 <alise> yay i got my channels swapped
20:25:33 <alise> pikhq: yes, but you can do the important parts of machine code in some more functional part
20:25:39 <alise> then spit out asm and generate labels at the last stage
20:26:12 <Deewiant> Actually I'd do pretty (Add x:xs) = replicate x (if x < 0 then '-' else '+') : pretty xs
20:26:25 <pikhq> Deewiant: Changing.
20:28:41 <alise> "Transmission is a file sharing program. When you run a torrent, its data will be made available to others by means of upload. And of course, any content you share is your sole responsibility.
20:28:41 <alise> You probably knew this, so we won't tell you again."
20:29:44 <oklopol> cheater99: what's up is i'm reading stuff
20:31:40 <alise> Oh come on, torrent client
20:31:43 <alise> You can do better than that <3
20:38:31 <ais523> found via Reddit: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chd=t:85,15&chs=350x250&chdl=Resembles+Pacman|Does+not+resemble+Pacman&chp=.5&chco=ffff00,993365&chtt=Percentage+of+chart+which|resembles+Pacman
20:38:57 <alise> I need a Usenet provider...
20:39:10 <alise> we're talking... really, really old
20:39:20 <alise> like at least 4 years maybe?
20:39:23 <ais523> I'm wondering if it was an independent recreation of something old
20:39:37 <ais523> nothing there implied it hadn't just been made up a few seconds ago
20:39:43 <alise> http://img.moronail.net/img/1/2/12.jpg
20:39:44 <alise> http://www.newfunnypictures.net/data/media/4/Percentage%20of%20chart%20which%20resembles%20Pac-man.jpg
20:39:51 <alise> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2310739468_397d808a35.jpg?v=0
20:39:56 <alise> http://sixtostart.com/files/xmas08/ARGs%20Christmas.032.png
20:39:58 <ais523> I should use that in a presentation someday
20:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chd=t:85,15&chs=350x250&chdl=Does+not+resemble+Pacman|Resembles+Pacman&chp=.5&chco=ffff00,993365&chtt=Percentage+of+chart+which|resembles+Pacman
20:40:13 <alise> another popular one is
20:40:18 <alise> http://www.seomfg.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/pie-i-have-eaten-chart.jpg
20:40:22 <alise> pie i have eaten vs pie i have not yet eaten
20:41:18 <ais523> also amusing in the discussion was an argument that someone hadn't misquoted Dijkstra properly
20:42:44 * alise installs Quod Libet
20:43:11 <alise> leonard nemoy has a twitter account.
20:46:24 <alise> http://pgraycode.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/raptors/
20:47:33 <cheater99> I THINK YOU MEAN LEONARD NIMOY ALISE
20:47:56 <alise> Here comes the FURY
20:48:13 <zzo38> I have seen a variant of that "percentage of chart which resembles Pac-man"
20:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> This just goes to show that psychology in general is stupid
20:51:37 -!- tombom has joined.
20:52:07 <cheater99> He has written two autobiographies, I Am Not Spock (1975) and I Am Spock (1995).
20:52:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: and here i was hoping the typo was accurate
20:52:53 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover, the typo just proves your shrink's point.
20:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Typos are due to my fingers not hitting the key hard enough.
20:53:38 <pikhq> Also, punctuation is a good thing. Use it.
20:53:42 <alise> That's better; 232 KiB/s.
20:54:11 <ais523> anyone else here watching Eurovision?
20:54:13 <oerjan> i dont need no stinking punctuation asshole
20:54:41 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
20:54:54 <HackEgo> 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :(
20:54:57 <HackEgo> 86|<ehird> Evolution is awful, awful, awful
20:55:00 <HackEgo> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:55:03 <HackEgo> 141|<songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
20:55:16 <HackEgo> 55|<Dylan> kaelis: yes kaelis, but however will get the horses to wear knickers?
20:55:24 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:55:30 <alise> can you stream eurovision online live? :P
20:55:33 <HackEgo> 124|<Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
20:55:39 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
20:55:45 <ais523> the only TV channel I stream regularly is ITV
20:55:48 <HackEgo> 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
20:55:53 <ais523> because it's broken on the actual TV here
20:55:54 <alise> ais523: because you're too principled to tune in to it?
20:56:07 <alise> I tend not to watch ITV at all because it's shit
20:56:13 <ais523> alise: mostly, I agree
20:56:24 <ais523> but I tend to like the sort of vapid and pointless quiz shows that they put on sometimes
20:56:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: go on...
20:56:34 <alise> ais523: channel 4 tends to have enough quiz shows
20:56:49 <alise> Okay, I will admit to occasionally watching TV Burp...
20:56:50 <ais523> 5 used to, but it stopped years ago
20:56:58 <alise> yeah Five is pretty awful
20:57:04 <alise> just 5,000 rubbish american shows
20:57:15 <ais523> I'm annoyed at Channel 5, it was my favourite channel when it first came out
20:57:21 <ais523> but went more and more downhill as time went on
20:57:21 <alise> It's called Five now :P
20:57:30 <ais523> but I refuse to acknowledge it
20:57:45 <alise> BBC One is officially called "BBC one" now, isn't it?
20:57:47 <alise> Or something of that sort
20:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to think of something to shout "FIGHT" about, but I can't.
20:57:58 <pikhq> 5,000 channels of rubbish American shows.
20:58:00 <alise> pikhq: No, thank you!
20:58:05 <alise> ais523: ah, no, it's changed from BBC1 to BBC One
20:58:10 <ais523> pikhq: I could pick up many of the larger US TV channels from Canada
20:58:16 <oerjan> ais523: you're on proggit
20:58:17 <ais523> but concluded I didn't have enough of a reason to
20:58:23 <ais523> oerjan: I noticed, comex told me
20:58:23 <pikhq> By "try" I mean "look at and then DESTROY your TV"
20:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I like US TV, and I like Five. But which is better?
20:58:30 <alise> I like BBC Two a lot.
20:58:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You... *Like* this shit?
20:58:42 <alise> BBC Two + Channel 4 = pretty much all TV worth watching
20:58:45 <alise> pikhq: He's joking.
20:58:47 <coppro> The CBC's okay, and that's about i
20:58:58 <alise> YOU FORGOT PBS LOL
20:59:05 <alise> 534 KiB/s on a torrent
20:59:08 <ais523> coppro: I was watching CBC News when I got bored of BBC World Service
20:59:13 <pikhq> I'm convinced that most of US television is designed in order to enact war against the rest of the world.
20:59:17 <alise> I am feeling happy in my special place now
20:59:21 <ais523> *BBC World News, they renamed it
20:59:31 <alise> ais523: does it not carry non-news programs any more?
20:59:42 <oerjan> ais523: notice the top reddit comment :D
20:59:49 <ais523> alise: it carries some programs which only tenuously fit into the definition of "news"
21:00:13 <ais523> oerjan: the one about Wolfram?
21:00:17 <alise> ais523: so basically you can only legally watch BBC television programs abroad by purchasing DVD sets?
21:00:22 <alise> you can't use iPlayer, they don't broadcast it...
21:00:27 <ais523> I can't tell if that's a parody or an accurate quote
21:00:38 <alise> WTF, someone reposted that again
21:00:45 <ais523> alise: not a repost, it's a first post
21:00:49 <alise> "I'm impressed that an undergrad did the proof. That's very impressive."
21:00:58 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:00:59 <pikhq> Which is a corporation which has simply gotten a license to the BBC name and BBC shows.
21:00:59 <alise> "Euclid didn't even get a high-school diploma" umm...
21:01:02 <ais523> reddit missed it somehow
21:01:19 <alise> why doesn't BBCA count?
21:01:47 <pikhq> alise: It's just another normal US TV channel, which *happens* to have a license to BBC shows.
21:01:49 <alise> ais523: I'm sorry how Wolfram has tarnished your name
21:01:58 <ais523> I don't think he has, really
21:02:01 <alise> everyone upon seeing alex smith in the future will go "oh, he's the guy who proved wolfram's kooky thing"
21:02:06 <alise> Well... "A New Kind of Pseudoscience, now with more megalomania. Your taste buds cannot repel flavor of this magnitude."
21:02:09 <ais523> there's a huge amount of vitriol for him and feeling sorry for me, on most of the fora about it
21:02:12 <alise> "I love how even in praising the undegrad student's work, Wolfram takes credit for himself, even though he had little if anything to do with it:" ++
21:02:23 <alise> ais523: didn't the $20k just go to living expenses?
21:02:41 <ais523> alise: for about 3 years, it's served me well
21:02:53 <alise> ais523: you don't seem to be living rather richly :P
21:03:02 <ais523> I don't particularly want to live richly
21:03:02 <alise> but yes, good point
21:03:43 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c99c3/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest_universal_turing/
21:03:47 <ais523> nowadays I have a salary, but it's too low to trip any of the tax or loan repayment thresholds yet
21:03:58 <ais523> yet simultaneously it's more money than I can easily imagine
21:03:58 <alise> "The problem with this proof is that it's incorrect. There was a long discussion regarding the correctness of the proof at http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html; Dr. Vaughn Pratt has stated that generating the Turing instructions as described is analogous to a linearly bound automaton."
21:04:06 <alise> ais523: oh, oh, please give me some text to rebut him with!
21:04:08 <oerjan> "Euclid didn't even get a high-school diploma"
21:05:05 <ais523> alise: there was an initial high-profile complaint by him that was based on incorrect assumptions, which he later retracted; then an argument about something tangential that I lost badly; then some valid concerns about the definitions of the thing in the first place, an argument that never finished because the moderator went on holiday. There's a proof there, but nobody seems entirely certain what it is that I proved
21:05:10 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c99c3/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest_universal_turing/c0r088g
21:05:25 <alise> ais523: shall I say that you said that or sth?
21:05:42 <ais523> if you like, I don't know if people will believe you...
21:05:58 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:09:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: heh, that runs into some of the same definitional problems my proof does
21:09:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so to speak. it has some similar issues to ais523's TM, but not as strong iiuc
21:09:35 <ais523> but with a definition in which the 2,3 machine is TC, rule 110 is also TC
21:10:01 <oerjan> (rule 110's setup is periodic in each direction iirc)
21:10:04 <ais523> the only thing he did was discover it, and advertise beyond the limits of sanity
21:10:07 <ais523> but at least he did discover it
21:10:22 <ais523> it was funny seeing #esoteric disappointed that someone had solved it and it wasn't one of them
21:10:27 <ais523> and they took a bit of convincing to start with
21:10:41 <zzo38> Do you like this cardset? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/screen/spider-tarot-cardset.png
21:10:53 <ais523> I have to thank the channel for introducing the problem to me in the first place, it was in the topic
21:11:04 <oerjan> i noticed someone later proved that Rule 110 is P-complete, which means it definitely has _some_ computational content
21:11:38 <oerjan> (that's for predicting n generations ahead, not infinite computation)
21:11:48 <ais523> P-complete's something like 6 or 7 computational classes lower than TC, isn't it?
21:11:58 <ais523> (assuming you mean P as in P=NP, rather than PSPACE)
21:11:59 <oerjan> it's a complexity class
21:12:15 <ais523> IMO, all the complexity classes are lower than all the mainstream computational classes
21:12:19 <ais523> and on the same large scale
21:12:46 <ais523> you can think of a general FSM, being the lowest useful computational class, as the highest complexity class
21:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, is it possible for the Reimann Hypothesis to be undecidable?
21:13:19 <ais523> if it was provably undecidable, then you've proved it can't be shown true or false
21:13:32 <ais523> if you prove it can't be shown false, then you've proved there are no counterexamples, as a counterexample would prove it false
21:13:41 <ais523> thus in such a case it must be true, which is a contradiction
21:14:13 <oerjan> ais523: btw you looked at tag stuff didn't you? iiuc the essential part of the P-complete proof was to show you could simulate turing machines in tag systems more efficiently than using unary (i think it was quadratic size)
21:14:14 <ais523> I'm not sure if it can be unprovably undecidable
21:14:33 <ais523> oerjan: not really, I used the pre-existing result that cyclic tag was TC, but that was about it
21:14:59 <oerjan> ais523: well then it might apply to that TM too, perhaps
21:15:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm trying to figure out what undecidable undecidability would even mean
21:16:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to undecidable.
21:16:07 <undecidable> sorry, need this in my tab-complete to make typing easier...
21:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it runs into the same problems as undecidability.
21:16:28 <undecidable> undecidable: either an assumption that something's true, or that it's false, leads to no contradiction
21:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Since a counterexample would prove its undecidability to also be decidable.
21:17:17 <undecidable> so if it's undecidable that something's undecidable, then assuming that something's true or false leads to no contradiction; and assuming that it can't be safely assumed both true and false also leads to no contradiction
21:17:22 <undecidable> and as far as I can tell, that's a contradiction
21:17:24 <oerjan> undecidable: FSM is regular languages isn't it? that's one of the _lowest_ useful complexity classes, not the highest
21:17:45 -!- undecidable has changed nick to ais523.
21:17:52 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:18:02 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, I was thinking in terms of an FSM which scaled to the problem
21:18:15 <ais523> which leads to definitional problems along the lines of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula
21:18:22 <ais523> or, for that matter, confusion with an LBA
21:19:47 <oerjan> that doesn't sound very well-defined, no
21:20:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: finite state machine, i thought
21:20:07 <ais523> I do that sort of thing all the time...
21:20:36 <oklopol> X is P complete means X is in P and any problem in P can be reduced to X with reduction what?
21:20:50 <oerjan> oklopol: logspace-reduction, mostly
21:21:16 <AnMaster> what is the difference between a FSM and a FSA?
21:21:25 <oerjan> although i've recently heard there's an even weaker reduction they sometimes use
21:21:32 <AnMaster> (or is that "an"?, after all it is pronounced as the letters...)
21:21:33 <Deewiant> One's an M and the other's an A
21:21:45 <oerjan> (logtime something, i'm not sure what it is)
21:21:59 <AnMaster> finite state automaton and finite state machine
21:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's obvious that the lowest computational class is something like a bric.
21:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe you can give an useful answer there, you tend to be able
21:23:18 <ais523> AnMaster: IIRC they're the same
21:23:23 <ais523> or same enough that it makes no difference
21:24:11 <oerjan> oklopol: logspace is my favorite complexity class, i think, despite being rather low
21:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So all of our computers are basically glorified regex parsers?
21:24:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You realize that this is the kind of thing that can be solved by looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSM and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSA
21:24:58 <oerjan> i just recently found the proof you can do most arithmetic in it (although the proof was strengthened even further to some even weaker class)
21:25:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would require opening a browser
21:25:32 <oerjan> it's surprisingly subtle how to do division
21:26:01 <AnMaster> logically asking on irc is thus better. Plus it gives some fun answers along the way
21:26:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: clearly you could write a regex containing every possible internal state of the computer as alternatives
21:26:11 <ais523> not that that would be particularly sensible
21:26:19 <Deewiant> I consider opening a browser less trouble than asking on IRC
21:26:27 <ais523> Deewiant: for me it's the other way round
21:26:37 <AnMaster> I have to agree with ais523 here
21:26:37 <oerjan> oklopol: yes that's the easiest one. multiplying _two_ numbers is also easy.
21:26:42 <ais523> I feel disappointed when I have to get the Web involved, especially a site I've never visited
21:26:52 <Deewiant> If you're browser-challenged, I'll spoil it for you: FSM = FSA
21:26:56 <ais523> cheater99: you get an amount of memory to do your calculation proportional to the logarithm of the size of the input
21:27:01 <oerjan> cheater99: O(log n) workspace use
21:27:03 <AnMaster> ais523, btw can you tell us about that esolang thing at uni you ran across
21:27:09 -!- uoryfon has joined.
21:27:10 <AnMaster> that you didn't want to ask about some days ago
21:27:19 <AnMaster> ais523, or is it still secret?
21:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It has bothered me for a long time that I don't understand O notation.
21:27:33 <cheater99> oerjan, is ais523's definition equivalent?
21:27:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: you still don't you mean?
21:27:55 <oerjan> oklopol: multiplying _n_ numbers was a key ingredient in the proof i found
21:27:56 <ais523> basically, in Sutherland's event logic, there are six basic circuits, plus wires and forking wires, that describe a mathematically useful subset of asynchronous circuits
21:28:07 <ais523> in recent research, we found that three of them were not necessary
21:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah interesting. Not necessary in the same sense as "you can do with only nand, but it is quite a pain to do that"?
21:28:58 <ais523> and we're trying to work out if one of the remaining five circuits, which seems rather complex, is expressible in terms of the other four
21:29:01 <ais523> I think I've proved it's impossible
21:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can it be expressed in terms of one of the ones you proved not required? to get another "minimal" subset?
21:29:52 <oklopol> O(g(n)) is the set of function f for which there are n_0 >= 0 and a > 0 such that f(n) <= a * g(n) when n >= n_0, so f(n) is in O(g(n)) means that from some point on (n_0) f(n) is smaller than some multiple of g(n) (which has to be the same for all n)
21:29:55 <ais523> probably, but they're even more complicated
21:30:14 -!- uoryfon has quit (Client Quit).
21:30:44 <alise> ais523: posted what you said
21:31:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and how does this tie into esolangs?
21:31:50 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and "Sutherland event logic" seems to not give many useful google results for me
21:31:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: does that make any sense? i tried to use letters with no well-known meanings.
21:31:52 <alise> <ais523> if it was provably undecidable, then you've proved it can't be shown true or false
21:31:57 <alise> that's not what undecidable means
21:32:06 <alise> undecidable = no algorithm can decide
21:32:11 <alise> independent = cannot be proved true or false from axioms
21:32:48 <AnMaster> alise, the former implies the latter though.
21:32:53 <alise> also ais523 what about RE
21:33:04 <alise> is that lower than a turing machin?
21:33:14 <alise> it contains the halting problem
21:33:30 <AnMaster> alise, afaik RE is less capable than an UTC
21:33:39 <alise> R = RE intersect co-RE
21:33:57 <alise> RE and co-RE are strictly bigger
21:34:08 <oklopol> RE is the set of languages that are accepted by turing machines; this includes the language of turing machines that halt
21:34:10 <ais523> AnMaster: Sutherland event logic is rather esolangish in its own right
21:34:13 <alise> recursively enumerable
21:34:18 <AnMaster> I'm starting to wonder that too. Thought RE was the regular languages
21:34:29 <alise> well true TMs will "run" RE
21:34:31 <AnMaster> alise, okay so what do you abbrev regular languages to?
21:34:33 <alise> but R is all the problems they can SOLVE
21:34:36 <alise> AnMaster: "regular"
21:34:44 <AnMaster> alise, seen RE used for it, pretty sure
21:35:06 <AnMaster> might not have been a mathematician of course
21:35:06 <alise> In computational complexity theory, R is the class of decision problems solvable by a Turing machine, which is the set of all recursive languages. R is often identified with the class of 'effectively computable' functions (the Church-Turing thesis).
21:35:09 <alise> oklopol: i don't ^
21:35:18 <alise> proof by wikipedia
21:35:34 <coppro> the margin is too narrow to contain my refutation of your proof
21:35:45 <oklopol> R is the set of languages that are accepted by turing machines that always halt
21:35:52 <alise> "I have a truly marvellous proof of this, but I'm sure you can all work it out."
21:36:01 <alise> oklopol: well yeah i'm talking in terms of decision problems
21:36:06 <alise> if you don't halt you haven't solved a decision problem
21:36:25 <oklopol> alise: i doubt AnMaster has seen RE used for regulars
21:36:35 <ais523> the Church-Turing thesis is ridiculous, I've seen about 20 different definitions of it, ranging from obviously true to clearly a matter of philosophy to right outside the scope of mathematics
21:36:38 <oklopol> i don't doubt "<alise> but R is all the problems they can SOLVE"
21:36:49 <oklopol> that's as true as it can be
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21:38:03 <alise> ais523: my definition of the church-turing thesis: Imagine a universe with the same physics as our own, but infinitely large. Imagine that this universe contains machines with actual physical infinite tapes. The Church-Turing thesis states that any computation done in this universe can be done by a universal Turing machine.
21:38:17 <alise> even that's a bit vague
21:39:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:39:32 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the original definition of it?
21:39:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it might be worth checking that
21:40:09 <alise> AnMaster: just "real-world computation can be done with the lambda-calculus"
21:40:15 <alise> which is hopelessly vague
21:40:20 <alise> wow, what a rubbish .nfo
21:40:29 <alise> it doesn't contain any text at all apart from the filled-in fields
21:40:48 <AnMaster> isn't that something used by MS system info thingy?
21:40:49 <alise> AnMaster: what the scene uses to give information about a release and diss other groups and shit
21:40:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:40:54 <alise> and talk about how great they are for doing it
21:41:23 <AnMaster> "On Microsoft Windows, the NFO filename extension is associated with a Microsoft software tool called System Information."
21:41:43 <alise> meh, sceners came first
21:41:45 <alise> they're just text files
21:42:17 <Sgeo_> scene? Somehow, I don't think you're talking about the demoscene
21:42:26 <alise> The demoscene is an offshoot of the scene.
21:42:36 <alise> (Cracked software always included a masturbatory demo at the start.)
21:42:40 <AnMaster> alise, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia-nfo.png <-- wikipedia is really self centered eh?
21:42:46 <alise> (Then they got so extravagant that they didn't need software accompanying them.)
21:42:51 <AnMaster> that's the example of an nfo file
21:42:54 <oklopol> so, if some physical constants happened to be uncomputable by a turing machine, but we could approximate them arbitrarily far with some sort of physical measurements, would you consider the church-turing to be wrong?
21:42:57 <AnMaster> in the article about nfo files
21:42:59 <alise> AnMaster: yeah wikipedia never talk about anything else in their examples
21:43:09 <alise> oklopol: well... abstract computation
21:43:17 <alise> i.e. computation that only uses some finitely specifiable input
21:43:22 <alise> so... anything that just takes a natural basically
21:43:31 <oklopol> alise: i'm not finding a counterexample to yours, i'm asking a question
21:43:34 <alise> I guess if it's quantum...
21:43:40 <alise> oklopol: then no, because it takes non-natural input
21:43:44 <alise> what about quantum computers
21:43:47 <alise> can they take non-natural input?
21:44:24 <oklopol> basically we have a physical machine that outputs a number no turing machine can
21:44:31 <AnMaster> alise, what exactly is abstract computation then
21:44:33 <alise> finitely-specifiable input = finite list of naturals = natural
21:44:44 <alise> oklopol: you're not allowed IO devices like that
21:45:00 <alise> natural in, natural out, nothing inbetween
21:45:06 <AnMaster> alise, I can imagine you could measure some constants using the system clock and measuring delay in yourself
21:45:07 <alise> AnMaster: i'm defining it as we go right now!
21:45:15 <alise> abstract, remember
21:45:31 <oklopol> alise: the guy whose book i was reading (just first chapter had philosophy :P) thought this would *not* be a counterexample, and i'd agree
21:45:46 <alise> Well... alternatively, here's a very precise, very strong version of the CT thesis:
21:46:01 <alise> Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe.
21:46:14 <alise> i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent.
21:46:21 <AnMaster> alise, if it has no clock and is async you can use it to measure delay due to temperature differences in different parts of the circuit if built the right way I think
21:47:03 <AnMaster> at least you could measure them in terms of other ones
21:47:25 <ais523> alise: btw, how mad am I for changing my own nick just so I could use it to tab-complete a word?
21:48:41 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, if it has no clock and is async you can use it to measure delay due to temperature differences in different parts of the circuit if built the right way I think
21:48:47 <alise> you appear to misunderstand the word "abstract"
21:49:11 <alise> <alise> Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe.
21:49:11 <alise> <alise> i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent.
21:49:13 <ais523> what if it has no clock and /isn't/ async?
21:49:14 <alise> actually I think I believe this
21:49:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:50:56 <zzo38> Why are there CTRL+H characters around the "<" "alise" ">"
21:51:32 <alise> XChat copied the colours.
21:51:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Computation stronger than a UTM.
21:51:43 <AnMaster> <alise> you appear to misunderstand the word "abstract" <-- that is because you haven't defined it in an useful way
21:51:50 <AnMaster> <alise> <alise> Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe.
21:51:50 <AnMaster> <alise> <alise> i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent.
21:52:05 <AnMaster> it doesn't prove it, it just defines it
21:52:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, banana scheme for example
21:52:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No?
21:52:38 <zzo38> Some of things in esolang wiki are super Turing, and uncomputable
21:52:46 <alise> For instance, a Turing-machine oracle.
21:53:32 <alise> It can decide a statement of the form (forall n : exists m : P(n,m)) where the variables range over natural numbers
21:53:37 <alise> (A super-Turing machine)
21:53:42 <alise> Well, at least, one with a TM oracle
21:54:07 <AnMaster> "TwoDucks is an esoteric programming language by User:Zzo38 which allows you to go back in time and change things. It is uncomputable on a Turing machine; it even allows you to solve the halting problem. "
21:54:13 <AnMaster> from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TwoDucks
21:54:39 <zzo38> Hyper Set Language is certainly inconsistent, since a code to implement Russell paradox can be written with it
21:54:39 <AnMaster> if that claim is true then it seems pretty certain it is superturing
21:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So if super-Turing inconsistency is true, FTL travel is impossible?
21:56:04 <zzo38> What is the relation?
21:56:09 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:56:18 <uorygl> FTL travel, according to relativity and stuff, allows sending information back in time.
21:56:32 <zzo38> not=({0}!(0.0))|(0.1); element_of={[<#]&>#;not/(not/@)}; Russell={[0.#;1.0]/(element_of/(#.#))}\*;
21:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can violate causality, you can build a TwoDucks interpreter.
21:56:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about storage space
21:57:06 <AnMaster> you would need infinite of that as well
21:57:29 <uorygl> As far as I can tell, quantum computing with a wormhole gate (i.e. it outputs a value, then later takes that value as input) is perfectly consistent.
21:57:49 <zzo38> There can still be quantum entanglements which can affect things, however it cannot be used for anything that can be received information it does still has to be the limited by speed of light
21:58:02 <AnMaster> uorygl, hm now you made me imagine implementing a nand gate or such with a wormhole
21:58:16 <uorygl> How would the wormhole be useful?
21:58:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, I don't know enough physics
21:58:48 <AnMaster> it just sounds like a cool idea
21:58:54 <zzo38> Yes, can you implemented NAND gates by wormholes?
21:59:11 <zzo38> It would require a lot of energy to create wormholes anyways, if it can possibly work
21:59:17 <AnMaster> also, I'm sure Hollywood could :P
22:04:31 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
22:04:53 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Client Quit).
22:05:04 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people joining and then leaving immediately,
22:05:59 <zzo38> Perhaps testing purposes?
22:06:23 <alise> Fun fact: mass noun is a mass noun.
22:06:30 <alise> "I destroyed all the mass noun in the dictionary."
22:07:21 <zzo38> Why did you do that?
22:07:55 <alise> No, it is a mass noun!
22:08:07 <alise> Mass noun are all mass noun; and mass noun is a mass noun.
22:08:19 <alise> Yes! That is valid!
22:08:23 <AnMaster> if it is a mass noun you couldn't say "a mass noun"
22:08:35 <alise> What's the one where "Xs" is invalid because it's just "X"
22:08:39 <alise> "a sheep" is still valid
22:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just when the plural and the singular are the same.
22:09:03 <alise> No fancy name? Aww.
22:09:06 <AnMaster> and that isn't the case for "mass noun" either
22:09:24 <AnMaster> since it is "mass nouns" in plural
22:09:52 <zzo38> There is stuff on Wikipedia about "Mass noun" I checked
22:11:57 <AnMaster> I think I heard that in some dialects in UK "sheep" does have a plural form different from the singular form
22:12:09 <alise> ais523: what is a Fragment anyway?
22:12:12 <AnMaster> or it might have been archaic, or dialectal _and_ archaic
22:12:16 <alise> AnMaster: sheeple!
22:12:33 <AnMaster> alise, sounds like something you use to bind paper together ;P
22:12:52 <alise> pulseaudio does not like two sounds playing at once lol
22:12:56 <alise> remind me to unpack my mac asap
22:13:07 <alise> AnMaster: congrats you have the perfect soundcard + configuration
22:13:09 <AnMaster> alise, both on laptop and desktop
22:13:14 <alise> AnMaster: how's that latency like
22:13:18 <AnMaster> alise, my laptop has intel hd audio
22:13:23 <alise> pulseaudio's lag isn't called latency
22:13:28 <alise> it's called the waiting room
22:13:37 <alise> you can have a nice sit down and a cup of tea while it's going
22:13:40 <AnMaster> alise, as for the latency, nothing noticeable
22:13:46 <zzo38> Today I will play pinball game
22:13:57 <AnMaster> alise, so I think you must be unlucky
22:14:08 <AnMaster> alise, of course on my desktop I _do_ have the perfect sound card
22:14:33 <alise> pulseaudio has the flaw of not actually doing anything useful
22:14:39 <AnMaster> and there I don't use pulseaudio anyway
22:15:08 <alise> If I had the patience to set it all up I'd use OSSv4.
22:15:09 <AnMaster> alise, anyway on my laptop with intel hd audio, playing multiple sounds at once with pulseaudio works
22:15:14 <AnMaster> not that I tend to do it often
22:15:57 * alise 's audio pauses for a few seconds
22:16:04 <alise> remind me not to scroll on a page with flash animations while using pulseaudio
22:16:20 <alise> admittedly it is a highly obnoxious flash ad that would play audio if i let it
22:16:25 <AnMaster> alise, what sort of shitty cpu?
22:16:45 <alise> no, actually, amd athlon 64 x2
22:16:57 <Deewiant> Of the three things I've tried (alsa, alsa + dmix, pulseaudio) pulseaudio works the best for me (but still not optimally)
22:17:01 <AnMaster> alise, that is dual core isn't it?
22:17:08 <alise> Deewiant: but pulseaudio /goes/ /through/ /alsa/...
22:17:16 <alise> AnMaster: it's because linux is shit :D
22:17:30 <AnMaster> alise, actually, I use linux and it doesn't happen for me
22:17:30 <Deewiant> alise: I don't really know/care about how it works, just saying that it does
22:17:31 <alise> everything was just fine until i plugged in speakers!
22:17:42 <AnMaster> alise, so I would suggest it is not the fault of linux
22:17:48 <zzo38> How good are you flipperless pinball game?
22:17:55 <AnMaster> alise, this is on ubuntu jaunty
22:17:57 <alise> actually it is, linux's fault is having unpredictable problems between perfectly fine hardware
22:18:03 <alise> if it works, you're lucky! who the fuck knows why!
22:18:15 <AnMaster> alise, so does mac. It only works on a few products
22:18:22 <alise> yes but at least you know what to buy.
22:18:31 <AnMaster> alise, okay for linux, buy IBM thinkpads
22:18:39 <alise> "Oh yeah this hardware works GREAT with linux" [buys it] "Actually, no it doesn't."
22:18:49 <alise> AnMaster: desktop?
22:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, oh and with recent kernels the wlan issues went away
22:18:52 <alise> don't say "make your own"
22:18:57 <Deewiant> The only issue I have with pulseaudio is that mplayer gets stuck if I pause it and then resume; I have to seek a bit (typically multiple times) to get it to unpause
22:19:15 <alise> AnMaster: because Everyone Else Has Better Things To Do
22:19:26 <alise> like trying to get linux to work :D
22:19:27 <AnMaster> alise, it takes, like, an hour once the components arrived
22:19:39 <alise> I'll just tell my mother that, brb
22:19:42 <AnMaster> alise, also I know someone with a perfect linux desktop apart from sound level
22:19:50 <alise> Actually, no I won't, because she'd laugh.
22:20:18 <alise> AnMaster: that's nice, how much money do they have?
22:20:25 <AnMaster> total used free shared buffers cached
22:20:28 <alise> even I don't consider buying multiple xenons.
22:20:56 <alise> AnMaster: are you counting hyperthreading "cores" there?
22:21:03 <alise> admittedly they're close to being extra cores, but still
22:21:23 <alise> yes, almost certainly.
22:21:31 <alise> 8 cpus is just two xenons, then
22:21:37 <alise> so what, $2,000 for the cpus.
22:21:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:22:00 <AnMaster> I think it is quad cores. Each with two hyperthreads
22:22:06 <AnMaster> model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5520 @ 2.27GHz
22:22:13 <AnMaster> you could look that up on intel.com
22:22:26 <alise> ok so one of the low end ones then :-)
22:22:34 <alise> in fact the lowest cpu speed you can get in a Nehalem
22:22:44 <AnMaster> alise, probably, it can compile the linux kernel in about 1 minute still
22:22:45 <alise> at least a Xenon/i7
22:22:48 <alise> Nehalem is a nice name for them, why don't people call them Nehalem more
22:22:55 <alise> why did they introduce i3/i5, before you could say Nehalem to mean i7/Xenon
22:23:00 <cheater99> if someone has 100 people on their friends list on fcebook and each person has on average 100 people on their list as well, that's 10000 people in your extended network
22:23:17 <cheater99> but i would say only up to 60% of those are unique
22:23:20 <alise> cheater99: and if each one of those has 100 friends, your totally-extended network is infinitely big
22:23:21 <AnMaster> alise, also it is a server board. Has IMPI and stuff
22:23:29 <alise> Deewiant: *Xeon, oops.
22:23:42 <alise> Deewiant: Nehalem Xeon = i7 + multi-CPU support + ECC support + $500 or more extra
22:23:44 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I bet your system can't compile the linux kernel in 1 minute and 2 seconds.
22:23:50 <AnMaster> which is the stats I saw for that system
22:23:53 <alise> SgeoN1: ...excrement
22:23:56 <cheater99> alise: yes, but we're talking about a real population, so it's going to start duplicating real quick
22:24:02 <Deewiant> I just thought the Xeons had a separate arch
22:24:10 <HackEgo> 164|<DoctorDog> I am an inherently pornographic being.
22:24:14 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
22:24:16 <alise> Deewiant: nope, never had
22:24:19 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
22:24:27 <HackEgo> 59|<Dylan> actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions
22:24:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I've even forgotten.
22:24:41 <HackEgo> 118|<apollo> Actually, he still looks like he'd rather eat her than have sex with her.
22:24:45 <alise> Deewiant: IT WILL STAY NESTED FOREVER HAHAHAHAHAHA
22:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it seems to have 8 MB L2 cache per core?
22:25:05 <alise> they have 512KiB of L2 per core
22:25:14 <alise> (core = 2 hyperthreads here)
22:25:22 <AnMaster> a bit hard to tell from /proc/cpuinfo
22:25:30 <alise> so how do I get an account
22:25:38 <alise> i built bsmntbombdood an almost-as-good system
22:25:42 <alise> well only one cpu, but more ram
22:25:45 <AnMaster> alise, on there? You don't. You have to be a friend of this guy.
22:25:48 <Deewiant> I don't think /proc/cpuinfo has the info in that detail
22:25:55 <alise> so I'll just ask bsmntbombdood to do my compilations and shit :P
22:26:16 <cheater99> i wonder.... if you have a set of N vertices, and the set of all connected graphs on them, then what is the statistical distribution of the value of percentage of duplication of second- and third-friends, sampled across all graphs and all vertices
22:26:20 <Deewiant> It just lists the cache a core has access to, but doesn't explain how it's shared between others
22:26:23 <AnMaster> alise, I use this to do huge panorama stitching that swap trashes all my computers
22:26:34 <AnMaster> of course it takes ages to scp the files. transatlantic
22:26:45 <alise> ...so how do I become a friend with this guy, what kind of personality does he have.
22:27:12 <alise> Wow, Dettol have introduced a No-Touch Hand Wash System.
22:27:14 <AnMaster> alise, a personality like mine
22:27:20 <alise> "Never touch a germy soap pump again"
22:27:27 <alise> What will the immune systems of our next generation be like?!
22:27:31 <alise> Will they even HAVE any?!
22:27:36 <AnMaster> alise, we have the same kind of view on user interface and such
22:27:43 <alise> AnMaster: well I'm not going that far, sorry.
22:28:29 <alise> oh well, I'll just bask in the knowledge that I came up with all the components to a proven-really-fast system without ever having assembled a computer before or even coming up with a full list of parts.
22:28:32 <alise> clearly, i am a natural.
22:29:25 <AnMaster> alise, that is the important bit
22:29:26 <alise> no... but that /is/ the easy part.
22:29:34 <alise> hey, all the components worked perfectly.
22:29:38 <alise> and with bsd/linux
22:29:39 <AnMaster> alise, ever messed with thermal paste?
22:29:44 <Deewiant> Depends on how many components you have and how small your case is ;-P
22:29:47 <alise> AnMaster: used the heat sink it came with :p
22:29:53 <alise> although he's replacing it iirc
22:30:00 <alise> once I scraped thermal paste off a cpu
22:30:06 <alise> (I didn't realise, I was young)
22:30:20 <Deewiant> Do what I do and ignore cable routing: just find the first working solution
22:30:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes and even that is tricky in my case
22:30:39 <alise> on my computer... I was young, as I said.
22:30:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is a tower but not an excessively large one
22:30:49 <alise> Didn't Dan's Data find out toothpaste worked well for a time as a thermal paste?
22:31:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, at least I only have the PATA cd nowdays, no PATA harddrive
22:31:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, not any more, it made the computer refuse to boot when plugged in one day
22:32:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is still in the case since I couldn't find the piece to fill the hole at the front
22:33:16 <AnMaster> oh I guess it does look nice indeed
22:36:16 <alise> i want to live on a mountain of computers
22:36:32 <alise> hey, the hole is ventilation!
22:36:38 <alise> you're not SUPPOSED to put floppy drives there!
22:36:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how much money do you have?
22:37:00 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC Edinburgh University has a supercomputer somewhere.
22:37:06 <alise> NOT MANY PEOPLE KNOW THIS but I came up with a parts list of an top-of-the-line computer costing $1,600...
22:38:11 <oklopol> came up with in what sense
22:38:18 <alise> Just bsmntbombdood's rig... rubbish graphics card but an i7 CPU, 12 GiB of DDR3 RAM, 80 GiB SSD + 1 or 2 TB disk
22:38:40 <alise> oklopol: Not much at all I just found parts that like each other on newegg to maximise cost/performance ratio :P
22:38:46 <alise> bsmntbombdood: har har har -- (you are joking right)
22:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I also get access to Ulster University's computer place in a few weeks.
22:39:22 -!- Halph has joined.
22:39:24 <alise> bsmntbombdood: yeah but most people won't know ... then again i guess they won't know i7 either
22:39:46 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:40:40 <AnMaster> alise, oh that system I mentioned, not a rubbish GPU
22:41:03 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:41:07 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
22:41:20 <alise> AnMaster: GTS is not rubbish but it's not "much"
22:41:35 <oklopol> did you need halph with your feces, pooppy?
22:41:45 <alise> i love you oklopol. marry me
22:41:54 <alise> I have a female name and the pronoun is she so you know it's acceptable
22:41:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:41:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: *pooppy
22:42:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat :P
22:42:34 <AnMaster> alise, 2 x of them isn't too bad for GPU computation
22:42:39 <alise> oklopol: okay so i need a plane ticket, where should i get it to
22:42:49 <alise> AnMaster: well 2 of them is good, yes.
22:42:55 <alise> oklopol: just checking you guys have an airport right
22:42:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah
22:43:04 <alise> oklopol: um i think you can get married over the internet nowadays
22:43:10 <alise> oklopol: your job is to find out
22:43:22 <alise> do you need parental permission to get married if you're 14? what if it's not your native country the marriage will be in
22:43:26 <alise> and can i move in with you?
22:43:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: by whom
22:43:46 <oklopol> i guess you can move in the room we're not using that much
22:43:53 <AnMaster> alise, also lets see how long stuff takes on this...
22:44:17 <alise> oklopol: certainly, can i use your internet connection
22:44:29 * AnMaster wish there was a batch hugin stitcher command that didn't require X
22:44:38 <alise> shut up AnMaster me and oklopol are having personal talk
22:44:40 <AnMaster> X forwarding the window is slowing things down
22:44:55 <alise> AnMaster: we're getting MARRIED!
22:45:45 <alise> AnMaster: just because you disapprove of our quasi-homosexual, underage coupling
22:45:49 <alise> doesn't mean you have to be NASTY about it
22:46:17 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: what does your nick mean
22:46:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: Especially nasty to be so nasty about it so soon before LGBT Pride Month.
22:47:04 <oklopol> well the other interpretation, hoover that targets phantoms
22:47:04 <pikhq> (US-only, is so by decree of President Obama)
22:47:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, the nasty bit is about underage
22:47:56 <alise> a hoover of phantoms would be useful for the ghostbusters
22:48:15 <pikhq> Gay Muslim Kenyan American Unamerican Hawai'ian Communist.
22:48:25 <alise> AnMaster: In all seriousness, I am pretty sure my (serious) consent to something is worth more than an average 16 year old's
22:48:28 <alise> (age of consent in UK)
22:48:36 <alise> Therefore, respect my goddamn marriage
22:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (I would like to make it clear that my name has nothing to do with the aforementioned plumber's)
22:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I wouldn't trust the 16-year-olds I meet to give consent to do something very inane which I can't think of right now.
22:50:36 <alise> AnMaster: multicore
22:51:10 <alise> Heck, I'd say my consent -- if I give it after at least a bit of thinking -- is probably worth at least as much as the average 18 year old's. Even if it's slightly less, which I doubt, remember that all the below-average 18 year olds are allowed to consent too...
22:51:13 <AnMaster> alise, not aggregated over several threads
22:51:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Counting in-kernel time.
22:51:25 <pikhq> Which can easily be on multiple CPUs.
22:51:27 <alise> Of course, you can't make the age of consent "Anyone who's intelligent and informed enough to consent can consent."
22:51:30 <oklopol> 16-yo's know what they're doing
22:51:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that could explain it
22:51:38 <alise> Because that's ... a fuckpile of a legal mess.
22:51:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I could REARRANGE SOMEONE'S VAGINA.
22:51:52 <alise> And then FAIL TO COMMUNICATE WITH IT
22:51:53 <AnMaster> STOP MESSING UP MY TAB COMPLETE (last spoken first)
22:51:54 <pikhq> It's also quite possible for Linux to be swapping CPUs on that process that much. :P
22:51:58 * AnMaster glares at both pikhq and Phantom_Hoover
22:52:19 <pikhq> (that sounds like a terrible idea)
22:52:53 <alise> Yes. Not communicating? ewwwww
22:53:02 <alise> Is it just me, or was Bell Labs totally awesome?
22:53:07 <oklopol> i don't get why people think kids can't decide stuff for themselves, any 15-yo can easily live by themselves, and unless seriously retarded, of course they fucking know what it means to get married or have sex
22:53:11 <alise> They did almost everything except telephones
22:53:23 <alise> Unix... background radiation of the universe...
22:53:31 <pikhq> oklopol: Many 15 year olds are seriously retarded.
22:53:49 <pikhq> Do you happen to recall high school?
22:53:57 <alise> IMO probably the biggest pandemic in society right now is how we treat children
22:54:13 <pikhq> This was filled with people who thought football performance *mattered* in the long run.
22:54:21 <alise> We de-educate them to be fuckheads, then stop them making informed decisions about things for years on the grounds that they're not intelligent enough yet which is OUR FAULT!
22:54:24 <oklopol> pikhq: or well to be more precise; i doubt they are on average any more retarded than 18-yo's
22:54:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If we make our children intelligent... then stupidity is gone in a generation.
22:54:37 <pikhq> oklopol: Well, on that count I agree.
22:54:39 <AnMaster> if we didn't treat them like retarded, the retarded ones would quickly be "weeded" out
22:54:50 <oklopol> pikhq: high school was when people started life on their own
22:54:56 <alise> I don't believe many people are inherently idiotic, without mental disabilities.
22:55:00 <alise> Sure, there is a gradient.
22:55:12 <oklopol> no one was retarded in high school
22:55:18 <alise> But teach the kid fucking rationality starting at an early age -- make their first things learned be how to fucking think properly because nobody can do it.
22:55:30 <alise> How to make conclusions instead of just using emotion and heuristics.
22:55:40 <alise> Then once they're literate it's just a process of adding knowledge.
22:55:45 <alise> Yes they freaking can!
22:55:50 <alise> Every intelligent person in the world can think properly.
22:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Hell, most primary-school teachers fail at even basic mathematics.
22:55:59 <alise> They can look at evidence, come up with theories, do experiments, come to conclusions.
22:56:03 <alise> It's not about arithmetic
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22:56:07 <AnMaster> alise, you are overly optimistic
22:56:08 <alise> It's about being able to think.
22:56:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in US or where?
22:56:17 <AnMaster> I doubt it is same in all countries
22:56:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about in China?
22:56:30 <alise> AnMaster: So, let me get this straight: You think that the vast majority of the human race is inherently stupid and can only think with emotion and heuristics?
22:56:45 <AnMaster> alise, no, not the vast majority
22:56:49 * Sgeo_ goes to watch the Stargate movie
22:56:50 <alise> One, no, most people are slightly intelligent, and if you can be slightly intelligent you can be moreso.
22:57:05 <alise> That would make intelligent people an extremely statistical outlier
22:57:07 <AnMaster> alise, but I think "<alise> Every intelligent person in the world can think properly." is a gross exaggeration in the other direction
22:57:23 <alise> AnMaster: So name an intelligent person who can't think properly.
22:57:57 <AnMaster> alise, somehow I did s/intelligent//
22:58:09 <AnMaster> my new claim is thus that far from everyone is intelligent enough
22:58:10 <alise> Anyway, it's simple fact that today's education system makes people stupid.
22:58:44 <alise> It's a conformity factory. It was not designed to produce intelligence. It was designed to produce office workers.
22:59:04 <Sgeo_> Ahaha. There's an ad saying "See something? [relating to illegal downloads] Report it!"
22:59:12 <alise> And education can never work unless we teach people to think properly as the core part of it... schools are just about stuffing facts, but they stuff facts into brains without telling them how to utilise them first
22:59:13 <Sgeo_> This ad is on YouTube
22:59:16 <oklopol> pikhq: in tv series us people are in high school like in 3rd to 6th grade
22:59:19 <alise> and stuffing facts is not how you do mathematics ... or anything
22:59:36 <oklopol> like finnish people (when i was growing up at least) are in 3rd to 6th ...
23:00:00 <alise> Anyway I doubt education levels will sufficiently improve
23:00:08 <oklopol> but that's probably true for finnish tv series too, i just don't watch them
23:00:09 <alise> because most people capable of educating a child properly will decide not to have one
23:01:09 <oklopol> what? why would someone not want a child
23:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> They represent a huge amount of time, money and effort.
23:01:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: they're idiots, "wah wah people don't like me wah wah i had my period it's so embarrassing"
23:02:03 <alise> Well, here's the reasons:
23:02:09 <alise> - the world is overpopulated already
23:02:18 <alise> - there is so much suffering and stupidity in the world that putting someone new into it is basically cruelty
23:02:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm lets see. Star Trek
23:02:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, is it the case there?
23:02:26 <alise> - it's basically a selfish thing to do
23:02:45 <alise> - other selfish reasons counteracting the selfishness like the money, effort, etc.
23:03:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, in fact I seem to remember quite a different view on things there.
23:03:32 <oklopol> alise: no, 1) no one cares about overpopulation 2) there's very little suffering or stupidity in the world, and life is awesome 3) yes
23:03:50 <oklopol> sorry i read that as "i like sheep"
23:04:08 <oklopol> okay then 4) who cares get a wife and just do the interesting parts
23:04:21 <oklopol> 5) there's always enough money
23:04:26 <alise> 1) I care about overpopulation
23:04:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, are you ignoring my counterproof?
23:04:41 <alise> 2) Life is fucking shit; for one pain is still around, for two poverty is still around, ...
23:04:47 <oklopol> well you're still making a negative impact to it by just having one child per pair of humans
23:04:50 <alise> 4) you can't sleep with a baby.
23:05:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: i haven't watched star trek
23:05:12 <alise> anyway i'm trying to convince oklopol of something, why
23:05:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, okay, I suggest you do
23:05:29 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:05:38 <oklopol> alise: pain and poverty might be around, but not for the kid
23:05:41 <AnMaster> alise, it is probably pointless unless it is about math
23:05:46 <alise> mr kid will grow up
23:05:50 <oklopol> so what's wrong with adding humans with GOOD lives?
23:06:02 <alise> oklopol: overpopulation. and nobody has a truly good life
23:06:10 <alise> AnMaster: and besides it'd ruin him, he's only fun because he's crazy
23:06:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, are you taking an utilitarian view here?
23:06:16 <alise> oklopol: Have you ever had pain?
23:06:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, actually
23:06:36 <alise> this was my view before all this crap.
23:06:56 <oklopol> "<AnMaster> alise, it is probably pointless unless it is about math" <<< yeah alise convincing me of being wrong about something in math, that sounds pointful.
23:07:01 <AnMaster> alise, so you were bitter before then too?
23:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're basically one of the "life isn't worth living" people?
23:07:23 <AnMaster> Always look at the bright side of life! <whistle>
23:07:24 <alise> I just think that there's a lot of suffering in the world and we should work on making it better before subjecting other people to it
23:07:38 <oklopol> alise: had pain? i've experienced pain, it's an interesting feeling, but you don't really get to try it much
23:07:41 <alise> AnMaster: you know, that was said while nailed to a cross
23:07:49 <alise> oklopol: well see this is why you don't understand :P
23:07:56 <alise> AnMaster: just mentioning
23:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: True, but if we decide to fix suffering and then have children we'll all be old and infertile.
23:08:35 <alise> Oh come on, that's a ridiculous thing to say.
23:08:38 -!- coppro has joined.
23:08:39 <AnMaster> alise, I guess I was using it as meta-meta-sarcasm
23:08:41 <alise> We're going to get old and infertile too.
23:08:52 <oklopol> alise: intelligent people will not understand because they've used their intelligence to make their lives awesome.
23:08:58 <oklopol> therefore they will reproduce.
23:09:01 <alise> If we manage to eliminate suffering we'll have the technological prowess to create babies whatever it takes
23:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Yes, but if we produce no more potentially fertile individuals.
23:09:12 <alise> eliminating suffering involves eliminating all illness, all pain, death, aging...
23:09:19 <alise> So if you can do that, what's one teeny little baby
23:09:30 <AnMaster> <oklopol> alise: had pain? i've experienced pain, it's an interesting feeling, but you don't really get to try it much <-- sure? put your hand in boiling water
23:09:52 <alise> You know, some people don't feel pain as pain, just as a tingling feeling.
23:09:52 <coppro> alise: not necessarily
23:09:54 <coppro> there is another means to eliminating suffering
23:09:54 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:55 <coppro> and that would imply the nonexistence of human technology
23:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: So basically your logic is that we shouldn't have children until the singularity?
23:09:57 <alise> Perhaps oklopol is the same...
23:10:00 <oklopol> i seem to have an extremely high threshold for getting burns
23:10:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, only by mistake I presume?
23:10:04 <alise> coppro: it would imply the nonexistence of humans!
23:10:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much. Yep.
23:10:25 <coppro> err, yes, I didn't say what I meant to say. It would imply us not having any technology
23:10:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: well no, i don't get sexual pleasure from pain, but it's a fun thing to try occasionally
23:10:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: And what if the singularity is unattainable within a human lifetime?
23:10:39 <oklopol> life is about experiencing stuff
23:10:45 <alise> coppro: A wild lifestyle would be very painful.
23:10:48 <coppro> alise: there would be no us to have it
23:10:53 <alise> coppro: right, that's what i said.
23:10:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, you know, I never considered it that far
23:11:01 <alise> well we'd have to completely genociderate all people
23:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> If it turns out that we don't have the time to attain the singularity in our lifetimes, we pretty much need to have children, or delegate everything to computers
23:12:23 <alise> coppro: are you a buddhist?
23:12:29 <alise> I don't think insects can gain enlightenment
23:12:33 <alise> and killing them would be against buddhism
23:12:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: true, having babies for the purpose of introducing more intelligent people who will help the singularity happen is a good reason.
23:13:13 <alise> dunno if i'm altruistic enough to subject myself to that :P
23:13:32 <AnMaster> alise, afaik that is not what most variants of Buddhism says.
23:13:44 <oklopol> the only good reason to have babies is they are probably the most interesting thing there is, i mean come on you have your own fucking HUMAN :d
23:14:05 <alise> AnMaster: Any sect of Buddhism that permits any sort of killing is probably not Buddhism.
23:14:16 <oklopol> and you can teach all sorts of magic
23:14:33 <alise> I know there are several distorted sects of "Buddhism" that teach things like the existence of a material, tangible Hell like in Christianity and have a lot of bloodlust towards rival sects
23:14:38 <coppro> buddhism is just weird nihilism
23:14:38 <alise> but that's not really buddhism at all
23:14:47 <alise> No, buddhism is not nihilism
23:14:55 <alise> Nihilism would advocate no option in particular when presented with a list
23:15:04 <alise> buddhism would always advocate towards total enlightenment
23:15:22 <coppro> not that form of nihilism
23:15:23 <oklopol> is there really any difference between anything
23:15:34 <coppro> the form of nihilism that advocates destruction of everything
23:15:37 <oklopol> yes there is don't be stupid
23:16:03 <oklopol> alise: anyway i suppose those were my strongest opinions
23:16:13 <oklopol> oh wait i had something about languages
23:16:21 <oklopol> that i haven't ranted about for a while
23:16:27 <alise> coppro: no, buddhism is totally not that!
23:16:37 <oklopol> but i think i've covered the others
23:16:40 <alise> buddhism doesn't advocate the destruction of anything
23:16:55 <alise> it advocates achieving enlightenment, then snuffing yourself out by becoming one with everything or some mystical shit like that
23:16:57 <oklopol> i should choose more opinions
23:16:58 <coppro> they advocate attaining a state of nothingness
23:17:14 <AnMaster> destruction? impossible. Law of conservation of energy.
23:17:16 <alise> they equate nothingness with everythingness though, do they not?
23:17:22 <alise> and they don't consider plain suicide achieving that
23:17:29 <AnMaster> of course, it might be a lot less easy to put something back
23:17:31 <alise> only death after enlightenment, which is basically your highest point anyway
23:17:34 <alise> and so completes your life to the full
23:18:34 <AnMaster> I argue that nothing is ever destroyed. It is at most converted into another form
23:19:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like "aaaaargh" kind of
23:20:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, very bad joke/reference
23:20:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, eh? wouldn't a towel be more fitting?
23:21:09 <AnMaster> okay that one made no sense whatsoever
23:21:11 <oklopol> what was the reference about
23:21:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
23:21:40 <oklopol> i don't read fiction usually
23:21:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i don't read google either
23:21:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is a classic, everyone should know it
23:21:56 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:22:01 <alise> no oklopol doesn't have to do anything
23:22:05 <alise> i like him just as he is
23:22:10 * alise puts oklopol in my pocket
23:22:10 <oklopol> well i've read dostojevski's idiot
23:22:16 <oklopol> that's classic enough for one lifetime
23:23:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, also humoristic, not dead serious at all
23:23:31 <alise> Humoristic is very much not a word.
23:23:52 <alise> anyway i really must get around to making a nicely typeset H2G2
23:24:04 <oklopol> i mean it wasn't as intelligent as south park, but it had some good points.
23:24:19 <alise> all I need is a copy with `` '' quotes, and some sort of easy marking for the italic sections
23:24:22 <alise> then i can work some magic on it
23:24:41 <oklopol> but yeah maybe i should read h2g2, at least i've decided to do that about 50 times
23:25:09 <alise> oklopol: buy it in dead tree, the online versions are shit
23:25:20 <alise> oklopol: and you can get all the five books in one so it's so thick you can barely hold it, it's wonderful
23:25:35 <alise> Anyone here read Goedel, Escher, Bach?
23:25:38 <alise> Well, I have it in paperback.
23:25:47 <alise> It is the most ludicrously thick paperback imaginable.
23:25:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't it ridiculous???
23:26:11 <oklopol> i was gonna order geb but for some reason i didn't
23:26:19 <alise> It's not that good a book
23:26:29 <alise> I love the dialogues, though
23:26:32 <alise> especially the one at the end
23:27:13 <oklopol> it's not good? i thought it was a book where the characters are gliders in gol and they have a whole new kind of society of gliders that unravels before the readers sweaty eyes
23:28:33 <oklopol> but is it SORT OF like that
23:28:55 <alise> oklopol: it's about goedel's incompleteness theorems and computation and consciousness and it has a ton of tortoise/achilles dialogues including ones where characters that are fictional and real in the universe swap half way through, the universe nests too much, and other things... and some other things.
23:29:08 <alise> the computation parts are not that much, it's mostly all about how it links together
23:29:19 <alise> although i skipped over a lot of the TNT parts because it was just tedious symbol-manipulation to prove things
23:29:21 <Sgeo_> :This video contains content from Lionsgate, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
23:29:22 <alise> so if you like proofs it's good.
23:29:57 <oklopol> well i do like the occasional tedious symbol manipulation
23:31:24 <oklopol> usually books meant for the layman have more of those really ugly symbol manipulation proofs than mathematical texts that consists only of proofs, i suppose this is because the point is not to actually teach anything, but to be able to copypaste some bullshit in the book that some nerd can read and think he's real tough
23:31:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:32:12 <oklopol> you know those pathetic retards that read that sort of books and then they're all like "im hardcore brain boy"
23:32:17 <alise> oklopol: well it actually goes through goedel's incompleteness theorem in the formal system
23:32:29 <oklopol> yeah i wasn't really being serious
23:32:31 <alise> it is mostly symbol manipulation, though :P
23:32:38 <oklopol> althought what i said is true often, i guess
23:32:38 <AnMaster> <alise> Humoristic is very much not a word.
23:33:38 <AnMaster> alise, anyway it would be logical if humoristic was a word
23:33:45 <AnMaster> it would follow the pattern of other words
23:34:00 <alise> It's a word if you believe the American dictionaries, at least.
23:34:11 <AnMaster> alise, also humoristisk in Swedish
23:34:17 <alise> But "humor" is the incorrect spelling, and I wouldn't even accept the abomination humouristic when the far superior word humorous is already there.
23:34:18 <Sgeo_> And F U too, Lionsgate
23:34:25 <AnMaster> alise, I accept both US and UK spellings
23:35:06 <AnMaster> alise, and I can't see a reason why it is "far superior"
23:35:34 <oklopol> alise: if i use humor in writing and use humour when talking, does that sort of balance it out?
23:35:38 <alise> Okay, the humor thing was basically a troll.
23:35:47 <alise> But humouristic sounds idiotic.
23:35:54 <alise> It is incredibly inelegant and just makes you sound, well, Swedish.
23:36:02 <AnMaster> alise, only to someone used to UK English
23:36:14 <AnMaster> alise, actually a Dane could manage it too
23:36:26 <oklopol> ju det r ett humristikalt ord
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23:36:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, what the heck was that
23:37:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, wth would "humöristikalt" mean though
23:37:44 <oklopol> humristikalt to you is what humoristical sounds to an english dude
23:37:50 <oklopol> i'm just trying to drive alise's point home
23:38:11 <AnMaster> alise, humör = mood, humor = humour
23:38:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, yep, which is why it confused the hell out of me
23:38:58 <oklopol> can you use it in a sentence
23:39:04 <AnMaster> hm google translate also suggests "temper" for "humör"
23:39:06 <oklopol> no need to translate because i'm awesome
23:39:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, if yes: "jag är på dåligt humör"
23:40:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, and for the benefit of alise it means "I'm in a bad mood"
23:41:02 <AnMaster> not sure which is the best translation
23:41:06 <oklopol> can you do something like not that i am currently == jag r inte dock just nu
23:41:23 <oklopol> dock being a guess based on doch
23:41:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, what would "doch" be?
23:42:13 <AnMaster> in any case, the word order was wrong there.
23:42:41 <oklopol> i don't know how the dock works if it's the correct word
23:42:50 <AnMaster> "jag är inte dock just nu" ~ "I am not alas right now". It ends up as wrong word order in English too
23:43:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, "jag är just nu dock inte på dåligt humör" would work
23:43:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, dock sounds somewhat formal
23:44:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, I would use it in everyday speech but that tells more about me than about how it is used :P
23:44:13 <oklopol> yeah i thought it's probably not really the best for swedish
23:44:24 <oklopol> but i don't know swedish very well
23:44:33 <oklopol> i'm telling you this because you probably couldn't tell
23:44:53 <oklopol> kulli kdes oottelen vastaustas
23:45:04 <uorygl> Wait, you actually know Finnish?
23:45:12 <alise> He's Finish, you idiot.
23:45:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
23:45:52 <oklopol> uorygl: mik maksaa hpnassu
23:46:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, um, how do you pronounce "höpönassu"?
23:46:30 <uorygl> It's pronounced HÖ-pö-nas-su.
23:46:32 <AnMaster> in Swedish it would be tricky and sound very very funny
23:47:09 <AnMaster> uorygl, how very helpful (not)
23:47:16 <oklopol> almost like swedish except our u is your o, and you have to remember x is always short, xx is always long
23:47:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, but there is no x in there
23:47:46 <uorygl> oklopol: just a minute, I've almost finished decoding the first thing you said. :P
23:48:05 <oklopol> uorygl: you probably shouldn't translate the rest... :P
23:48:30 <oklopol> possibly that's not exactly swedish
23:48:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, not like in Swedish where "ass" in there would make a short a followed by a normal s?
23:48:35 <oklopol> maybe i should just use english :P
23:48:54 <oklopol> like the s's in "piss sack"
23:48:54 <AnMaster> <oklopol> en massa av ... has it
23:49:44 <uorygl> Hyvä... entä... sinä...
23:49:56 <oklopol> uorygl: second one you should be able to translate, although it's colloquial, the third one might be challenging
23:50:33 <oklopol> or umm i dunno what it was
23:51:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm does fi allow concatenation like Swedish does?
23:51:16 * uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now.
23:51:31 <AnMaster> * uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now. <-- what?
23:52:24 <oklopol> i used it when responding to uorygl
23:52:33 <uorygl> Eh, it's more fun to say my own stuff instead of trying to figure out what other people are saying. :P
23:52:36 <AnMaster> what does memory cards have to do with this
23:52:39 <pikhq> oklopol: Why do you guys speak Japanese with a funny cypher?
23:52:53 <oklopol> uorygl: well it's fun to read what you say so go ahead
23:53:00 <uorygl> Because Finnish is the Sacred Language of Things for Which Finnish is Used as a Sacred Language.
23:53:31 <uorygl> What's "kädes" supposed to be, anyway?
23:53:34 <oklopol> pikhq: you should ask a linguist
23:53:48 <pikhq> oklopol: He's not here right now.
23:53:50 <uorygl> I should probably learn what all these cases are. :)
23:54:01 <oklopol> in finnish it's common to drop stuff from most words
23:54:09 * AnMaster saw a LOT arrive in a single second
23:54:33 <uorygl> So, from käsi, hand-or-something.
23:54:37 <AnMaster> everything after "* uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now." up to "<uorygl> I should probably learn what all these cases are. :)" arrived in a single second
23:54:49 <oklopol> ksi -> kde is the weakening or whatever it's called
23:55:09 <uorygl> I have no idea what oottelen is.
23:55:38 <oklopol> but you usually drop it at least in turku, i think elsewhere too.
23:56:06 <AnMaster> uorygl, "Inessive"? wth does that mean
23:56:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, you have a specially word form for that?
23:56:48 <uorygl> Hey, it's that partitive case again.
23:56:59 <oklopol> but yeah we have an inessive case
23:57:20 <oklopol> uorygl: yes, plus another thing in the end too
23:57:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: "wow"? it's not exactly an uncommon case in languages that have those
23:57:49 <uorygl> How does "vastaustas" break down?
23:58:02 <oklopol> either you just have a few really generic ones, like german, or then you have these positional things too.
23:58:13 <oklopol> uorygl: you got it except for the s
23:58:20 <oklopol> that's contracted from vastaustasi
23:58:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, English and Swedish only have a few generic ones
23:58:37 <pikhq> Languages should have fewer cases.
23:58:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, French has a few more iirc but not quite as much
23:59:06 <pikhq> While we're at it, we should reduce everything to grunts and vague gestures.
23:59:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm might make communication a bit harder
23:59:25 <uorygl> oklopol: so what do the ta and si do?
23:59:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, would need to redesign IRC for it
23:59:37 <oklopol> uorygl: you got it already, ta is partitive
23:59:59 <oklopol> if a word ends in s, the partitive is usually -ta (i think always)
00:00:37 <oklopol> oottelen vastaustasi = i wait for your answer
00:01:00 <AnMaster> how did I end up reading "answer" as "shower"
00:01:13 <oklopol> well i read your shower as showel
00:01:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, at least the edit distance was less there
00:01:35 <uorygl> oklopol: so this makes "kulli kädes oottelen vastaustas" seem like two separate sentences.
00:01:48 <uorygl> Where one of them is just a noun phrase. :P
00:02:14 <oklopol> uorygl: wielding my dick i'm waiting for your answer
00:02:44 <oklopol> but usually you'd say "odottelen vastaustasi pippeli kdess"
00:03:08 <oklopol> the original was a poetic word order, so to speak
00:03:35 <oklopol> (i gave you a third name for penis, you can never have too many)
00:03:44 * uorygl quickly runs through his flash cards again.
00:04:44 <oklopol> i think it's more like a nipple but yeah
00:04:55 <uorygl> So "tit" is definitely right.
00:05:28 <oklopol> ks can be done with other things too, although it's not used much
00:05:33 <uorygl> I'm not doing all that well with these.
00:06:06 <oklopol> have you chosen random words from a dicitonary?
00:06:32 <uorygl> I'm taking content words off of http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koira
00:07:23 <uorygl> How would you say "the dog bone explodes"?
00:07:34 <AnMaster> * uorygl quickly runs through his flash cards again. <-- why do you speak about memory cards all the time...
00:07:46 <uorygl> AnMaster: because I use them for language learning.
00:08:05 <alise> AnMaster: not flash USB drives
00:08:13 <AnMaster> alise, what does he mean then?
00:08:25 <alise> word in certain language + meaning
00:08:27 <AnMaster> alise, that means compact flash card or such to me
00:08:28 <alise> used for memorising a language
00:08:38 <uorygl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashcard
00:08:45 <oklopol> you have cards with words on both sides
00:08:48 <uorygl> "A flashcard or flash card is any of a set of cards bearing information, as words or numbers, on either or both sides, used in classroom drills or in private study."
00:08:51 <alise> An example for a French student of English learning "enough", which in French is assez (pronunciation given in IPA):
00:08:52 <alise> A: enough, /ɪˈnʌf/
00:08:56 <oklopol> i would've assumed it's flashcard in swedish
00:09:20 <cheater99> can we at least talk klingon or something
00:09:30 <cheater99> all this swedish chef stuff is getting old
00:09:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, I never heard of this concept, and a glosbok is quite different
00:09:40 <uorygl> Finnish isn't Swedish chef stuff.
00:10:00 <uorygl> "Score: 10 of 20 = 50%"
00:10:12 <AnMaster> cheater99, please make a difference between Swedish and Finnish next time
00:10:18 <AnMaster> you managed to insult both sides
00:10:28 <uorygl> Mmkay, "koiran luu räjähtää". "Koiran" is the genitive there, yes?
00:10:54 <uorygl> Do compounds like that always use the genitive like that?
00:11:10 <oklopol> uorygl: the bone of the dog
00:11:36 <oklopol> we use normal genitive with body parts
00:12:04 <alise> "I do not believe that John Wiles has actually provided a proof with integrity, but more a proof checked by friends in the know" --crackpot saying he's proved FLT
00:12:18 <AnMaster> cheater99, ...........................
00:12:57 <cheater99> you can see that i spaced those dots in approximately a quadratic progression
00:13:12 <uorygl> oklopol: when you stick words together without a space in between, what do you do with the first word, case-wise?
00:13:30 <oklopol> uorygl: usually nothing, rarely genitive
00:13:34 <cheater99> and this is very related to the topic of the channel
00:13:34 <AnMaster> cheater99, anyway my answer is: stop trolling
00:13:42 <uorygl> oklopol: so you usually just use the stem?
00:13:57 <oklopol> yes, but koiran luu is not a compound, it's just "the bone of the dog"
00:14:02 <cheater99> AnMaster, i am not trolling - i just found your remark about finnish/swedish pride a bit funny that's all =)
00:14:14 <uorygl> oklopol: can you make compounds with a word in between?
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00:14:24 <AnMaster> cheater99, they are different language families
00:14:56 <cheater99> AnMaster, believe it or not i know that
00:15:35 <oklopol> uorygl: the rules for whether there's a space are rather complicated in general, but for two nouns there's usually no space
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00:17:25 <uorygl> So if you really wanted to say "dog bone", it would be... hm, I don't know what the stem of "koira" is. Is it "koira", "koir", or something else?
00:18:05 <oklopol> you never drop anything from "koira"
00:18:17 <oklopol> no wait plural partitive is koiria
00:18:56 <oklopol> if you carved stuff out of bones, you could call one of your products the "koiraluu"
00:19:04 * Sgeo_ finds another way to watch his movie
00:20:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:22 <SgeoN1> It's Megavideo though, which means being interrupted by "hey, you've watched too much video"
00:20:30 <oklopol> also i think koiranluu is a bone you can buy for your dog to eat
00:21:05 <SgeoN1> I think maybe I shouldn't be saying all this stuff in a logged channel
00:21:11 <uorygl> Aiee, why the n/lack of space?
00:21:14 <oklopol> i hate megavideo, it's the best streaming service there is, but also the only limited one
00:21:28 <oklopol> uorygl: that's the rare no-space genitive compound.
00:22:14 <SgeoN1> "best", as in losses enforcement of copyright?
00:23:45 <alise> SgeoN1: dude the authorities are not going to get you for piracy
00:23:52 <alise> chill the fuck out and stop worrying :P
00:24:01 <oklopol> koiraluu will always make sense, either it has some specific meaning or it'll be used in context, koiranluu just usually sounds wrong, except when it happens to have a meaning (like in this case), koiran luu will always make sense, it's just the bone of a dog, it can have a more specialized meaning like in this case "dog bone", but it will always also be usable as a generic the bone of a dog.
00:24:19 <oklopol> that makes sense only if you swap a noun variable where luu and koira are :)
00:24:26 <SgeoN1> My dad instilled a sense of paranoia about that stuff
00:25:10 <SgeoN1> Then again, he's also paranoid about forwarding ports and running servers/hosting games
00:25:23 <uorygl> I guess I should learn how to say stuff like "man".
00:25:47 <SgeoN1> He once made me wipe my HD after I installed a chat seover of some kind
00:26:59 <alise> SgeoN1: Your dad is a fool. Uh, of sorts.
00:27:36 <uorygl> The United States just isn't a good country for Sgeo.
00:28:17 <coppro> alise: Do you know of an X server framework that implements a basic forwarding X server?
00:28:50 <oklopol> uorygl: why would you want to learn finnish?
00:29:07 <uorygl> oklopol: because it's spoken in Scandinavia and it's not Indo-European.
00:29:14 <oklopol> also what did you end up deciding to do with your life?
00:29:22 <uorygl> I still haven't decided.
00:29:37 <oklopol> i guess i was sort of expecting that answer
00:29:43 * uorygl looks up Finnish conjugation.
00:29:55 <uorygl> Kävelen, kävelee... that's enough for now. :P
00:29:59 <alise> uorygl is going to become a professional eliezer yudkowsky fanboy
00:30:06 <oklopol> are you moving to scandinavia, otherwise i might want elaboration on the reason
00:30:09 <alise> uorygl: stop using two spaces after a sentence
00:30:17 <alise> uorygl: it's typewriter legacy
00:30:32 <uorygl> oklopol: I might move there eventually. :P
00:30:53 <oklopol> i don't seem to be able to behave in finnish
00:31:28 <oklopol> uorygl: if you do, please choose math :P
00:31:49 <uorygl> Why? Is there lots of demand for math in Scandinavia?
00:32:26 <oklopol> well no but i would insisting on us meeting (if you learned finnish and therefore moved here), and it would be most useful for me if you were a math enthusiast.
00:32:48 <uorygl> Great. Let's plan to meet... how does May 29, 2014 sound?
00:33:03 <uorygl> Great, I'll add it to my calendar. :P
00:33:03 <alise> oklopol: i will totally meet you earlier
00:33:09 <alise> like in the next couple of years
00:33:10 <oklopol> unfortunately i don't really have anything to store dates in
00:33:15 <alise> you'd be so interesting.
00:33:28 <uorygl> I'll have to remind you 30 minutes before and then 5 minutes before.
00:33:32 <oklopol> or maybe i'm not interesting
00:33:40 <oklopol> and you'll be really disappointed
00:33:49 <alise> i want to write a little spreadsheet program
00:34:00 <oklopol> my gf just told me i was really odd a few days ago because i wanted to lick my knee all the time
00:34:30 <alise> wow i am going to do that now
00:34:35 <alise> did it to my clothes but close enough
00:34:57 <uorygl> Let's see, May 29, 2014 is a Thursday.
00:35:58 <oklopol> nah i can probably leave early
00:36:15 <pikhq> You could change jobs by then.
00:36:19 <uorygl> Sure, where at the uni?
00:36:33 <oklopol> where i'm doing my research, turku university
00:36:45 <oklopol> main building, 4th floor of math dep
00:36:56 <oklopol> i'm not sure about room number tho
00:37:37 <oklopol> i guess university of turku is the name but anyway
00:38:37 <uorygl> There, now my calendar contains two events. :P
00:38:42 <uorygl> One of them is in June, the other is in 2014.
00:39:17 <uorygl> I made that appointment in June a few weeks ago.
00:39:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, I feel sorry for your gf
00:39:44 <uorygl> I asked, "How far ahead can I make an appointment?" They said, "As far ahead as you like, I guess."
00:40:04 <uorygl> I should have cackled evilly upon hearing that I had this unlimited power, but instead, I just made an appointment four weeks from that time.
00:41:48 <uorygl> I should have also made an appointment eight weeks from that time, as I knew when I would be available.
00:41:50 <pikhq> "4 minutes after the End"
00:41:52 <oklopol> CAN THE NUMBER OF SECONDS INTO THE SPECIFIED MINUTE BE IRRATIONAL
00:42:19 <uorygl> The number of minutes into the specified hour must be a non-integer dyadic fraction.
00:44:05 <uorygl> Mies kävelee. That's easy enough. And, uh...
00:44:20 <AnMaster> uorygl, you should have made an appointment in year 31827372 or such
00:44:36 <uorygl> The campus recreation center.
00:44:53 <uorygl> To create a new exercise plan.
00:45:40 <uorygl> Darn, I could have answered whatever I wanted. I should have said, "To reconsider the allocation of recreation among the students to take into account the fact that nobody really *needs* recreation".
00:46:42 <oklopol> what do exercise and recreation have to do with each other
00:46:56 <uorygl> Now I wonder where I'm walking to.
00:46:58 <oklopol> recreational is a branch of mathematics
00:47:00 <uorygl> oklopol: don't ask me.
00:47:12 <alise> uorygl: you are forced to exercise or something? :p
00:47:21 <oklopol> ooh, you're gonna need illative
00:47:49 <uorygl> I am forced to exercise if I want to reap the benefits of exercise without resorting to some means by which I can reap the benefits of exercise without exercising.
00:48:35 <alise> uorygl: you're so annoying
00:48:38 <alise> i hope our visits to oklopol don't clash
00:48:50 <uorygl> Let's see. With the words I supposedly know, I can say...
00:49:20 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix_WWB/1/sexist
00:49:21 <uorygl> I walk into the starting time, I walk into the animal, I walk into the stone, I walk into the shape...
00:50:36 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/6/atc ;; one of the most geeky games imaginable
00:51:01 <uorygl> I don't know the illative cases of those.
00:51:42 <oklopol> some sort of lengthening or vowel + n
00:51:49 <oklopol> plus all sorts of fun details
00:52:06 * alise attempts to find the spreadsheet program in unix 8th edition
00:52:37 <uorygl> Minä kävelen alkuaikaan. Minä kävelen eläimeen. Minä kävelen kiveen.
00:52:44 <uorygl> So my guess for "shape" would be "muotoon".
00:52:55 <uorygl> Yep! Minä kävelen muotoon.
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00:53:38 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/1/visi
00:53:48 <AnMaster> <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/6/atc ;; one of the most geeky games imaginable <-- nah, tried it, not realistic IMO
00:54:00 <uorygl> Koira kävelee luun suuhun.
00:54:15 <uorygl> It doesn't make much sense. :P
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00:55:47 <AnMaster> alise, yeah, I prefer simulations
00:56:44 <cheater99> http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/v223/334/56/n100000035296412_1208.jpg
00:57:15 <uorygl> Now I'm kind of thirsty, and I want to talk about drinking, but that's really a vocabulary issue.
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01:09:29 <oklopol> i don't think starting time is alkuaika
01:10:06 <oklopol> uorygl: doesn't make sense but it's meaningful
01:10:53 * alise tries to find the actual cover of tri repetae
01:12:41 <oklopol> i AnMaster's the word cover to be the topological term
01:13:18 <oklopol> okay i thought cover in the sense new version of old thing
01:14:18 <alise> "incomplete without surface noise." -- the cover
01:14:28 <alise> ("complete with surface noise." -- cover of vinyl version)
01:18:50 <alise> I propose we term what is usually called axioms, plus information about axioms, axiomata
01:18:56 <alise> Why: it sounds nice
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01:44:52 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/cgih
01:45:01 <pikhq> I should make this cleaner.
01:46:01 <Sgeo_> Metavideo, fuck you and your 72min limit
01:46:35 * oklopol is about to run out of his 72
01:47:47 <alise> pikhq: ima write one of them
01:47:51 <alise> looks funerifierous
01:48:16 <uorygl> oklopol: starting time isn't alkuaika?
01:49:01 <oklopol> well what kind of starting time?
01:49:08 <alise> BF = (Add n, Move n, Loop x, In, Out) ;; I want a dynamic language with adts
01:49:13 <uorygl> The point at which a long process began.
01:49:16 * pikhq should futz with the
01:49:37 <oklopol> okay if it's long then maybe
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01:50:08 <oklopol> i was thinking like starting time in a race or something, maybe it doesn't mean that usually
01:52:28 <alise> opt (Loop [Add (-1)] : xs) = opt $ Clear : xs
01:52:28 <alise> opt (Loop [Add 1] : xs) = opt $ Clear : xs
01:52:30 <alise> pikhq: it's more general than this
01:52:46 <alise> you need the extended euclidean algorithm to figure out whether a loop like that terminates, iirc
01:53:06 <alise> pikhq: btw you could write your optimiser simpler as repeated application until fixpoint of the optimisation function and no recursion :P
01:53:51 <uorygl> What sort of starting time is the time I began sneezing?
01:53:58 <alise> opt (Loop x : xs) = Loop (opt x) : opt xs
01:54:06 <alise> Loop [Add 2, Add (-1)]
01:54:14 <uorygl> As in the starting time of one particular sneeze.
01:54:15 <alise> optBF (Loop x : xs) = optBF $ Loop (optBF x) : xs
01:54:48 <alise> pikhq: also use Set n instead of Clear
01:54:55 <oklopol> alkuaika is more like for eras and the like
01:55:19 <oklopol> "tieteen alkuaikoina..." when science wazs younngg
01:55:24 <pikhq> alise: This is intended to first achieve feature-parity with a C program I wrote that does the same thing, and then go from there.
01:56:18 <uorygl> The starting moment, eh?
01:56:46 <oklopol> in finnish it sounds nonsilly.
01:57:12 <oklopol> it's not exactly moment, hetki is a point in time, moment is, i guess, an interval
01:57:23 <oklopol> although they do have overlap, it's the usual translation
01:58:03 <uorygl> oklopol: Zack M. Davis says, "[Recreational] is _not_ [a barnch of mathematics]! Algebra, analysis, and topology are branches of mathematics. 'Recreational' is a diminituve applied to problems that are perceived as being
01:58:22 <uorygl> "easier or more 'fun' than 'serious' mathematics. The distinction has everything to do with the ideology of professionalism and nothing to do with the theorems themselves."
01:58:41 <alise> *Main> optBF [Add 42, Move 0, Add (-3)]
01:58:43 <uorygl> And "And doesn't it make more sense as, 'What's the difference between (...)?'"
01:59:16 <oklopol> okay, i haven't been exposed to diminutive usage, but i was joking
01:59:17 <uorygl> Hm, shouldn't he have said "'What's the difference between (...)?'?"?
01:59:40 <pikhq> alise: Trying to do this better than me? :P
01:59:53 <alise> pikhq: EVERYTHING WILL BE SUPERIOR
02:00:03 <alise> pikhq: you know how far along esotope is btw? :P
02:00:19 <pikhq> Esotope does quite a bit.
02:00:22 <uorygl> Hey, I don't seem to be thirsty any more.
02:00:29 <uorygl> oklopol, how would you say "I don't seem to be thirsty"?
02:01:23 <oklopol> literally en vaikuttaisi/nyttisi olevan janoinen
02:01:41 <oklopol> which i suppose i would use in a situation where i'd say that
02:02:17 <oklopol> in your case you'd probably leave out the seem, "oho, jano lhti" or something :P
02:02:58 <uorygl> Hm, how about something easier. "The dog seems to be glowing."
02:03:13 <alise> pikhq: Esotope COMPILES THE REGULAR LOOPING HELLO WORLD TO A PRINT STATEMENT.
02:04:11 <pikhq> alise: Yes, I'm well aware.
02:04:17 <pikhq> It's pretty crazy.
02:04:50 <pikhq> alise: However, it still has pointer loads *all the freaking time*.
02:04:54 <pikhq> Because GCC sucks.
02:04:58 <alise> lol i keep trying to look at the repository for esotope but i can't stop staring at mearie.org's pretty design instead
02:05:11 <alise> it optimises array references into variables when it can!
02:05:30 <uorygl> oklopol: so what's "hehkuvan"?
02:05:50 <oklopol> from hehkua, which is glow i think
02:06:22 <uorygl> How do you get to "hehkuvan" from that?
02:06:24 <oklopol> but nytt hehkuvan is actually a rather special construction, i'm not even sure what case hehkuvan is in
02:06:36 <pikhq> Esotope's design is pretty hard to grok, though.
02:07:12 <uorygl> Wiktionary says "active present participle sg. in genitive".
02:07:40 <oklopol> first -va, hehkuva is something that glows, then that's genitive
02:07:40 <pikhq> Maybe I should just give it an x86 asm backend.
02:07:47 <uorygl> So that word is inflected *and* declined? >.>
02:08:08 <uorygl> Er, conjugated *and* declied.
02:08:08 <oklopol> well the verb is made into a noun sort of thing, then genitive is added
02:08:16 <uorygl> Conjugated *and* declined, even.
02:09:03 <alise> pikhq: would be a good idea.
02:09:14 * uorygl ponders "The dog seems to walk".
02:09:37 <oklopol> but i see no reason why it would actually be that meaning, i would've guessed it's some old form that verbs used to be in more often, but nowadays just for "nytt"
02:10:05 <oklopol> because with that interpretation it's "shows something that glows"
02:10:08 <uorygl> "Koira näyttää kävelvän"? Em...
02:11:09 * uorygl attempts to type ä a bunch of times and ends up with this: aääaäaäaäaäaääääääääaääääääää
02:11:41 <uorygl> Oh, look, "kävellä" is conjugated "kävelee" in the third person singular. :)
02:12:51 <uorygl> So is "The dog seems to lift" "Koira näyttää nostavan"?
02:13:06 <uorygl> The word "nostavan" seemed to pop into my head for some reason, and then it turned out to be correct. :)
02:13:23 <uorygl> I mean, it came to mind, and then it turned out to seem correct, and then it further turned out to actually be correct. :P
02:15:05 * uorygl peeks at the third-person singular of "syödä".
02:15:47 <uorygl> It looks like "The dog seems to eat the bone" is going to be "Koira näyttää syövän luun".
02:16:15 <oklopol> except probably "koira nytt syvn luuta"
02:16:42 <uorygl> Good ol' partitive case.
02:16:50 <oklopol> because i can't imagine it seeming to eat the whole bone in one go
02:17:04 <uorygl> Finnish is such a strange language, why would anyone want to learn it. :P
02:17:35 * pikhq is looking at a side-by-side diff between known-working and known-broken output.
02:17:43 <oklopol> "Koira näyttää syövän luun" <<< this can also mean "the dog shows the bone of the cancer"
02:17:45 * pikhq cannot figure out WTF is going on
02:18:09 <uorygl> Perhaps I went to DeviantArt once, saw the work of a Finnish artist, and thought, "I like this stuff. I want to learn Finnish". :P
02:18:48 <pikhq> It's like I've got completely and utterly different control flow happening.
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02:20:59 <oklopol> to understand a man's art, you have to understand his brainage, to understand a man's brainage, you need to learn finnish.
02:21:13 <oklopol> because finnish is the language of understanding
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02:21:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
02:21:33 <uorygl> Brainage: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day!
02:22:13 <pikhq> This particular optimisation might be easier if I compile into Jumpfuck and optimise that.
02:22:23 <oklopol> Vliaikainen takuu palkinto - aivojumppaa puhelimeesi. Voita uusi iPad. Onko tm uusi iPad sinun? Ultra cool iPad.
02:22:42 <oklopol> i can give you all the spam i seeas homework
02:23:04 <oklopol> at least one of the sentences should be simple
02:23:19 <alise> oklopol: write a finnish/lojban pidgin
02:23:26 <alise> whenever you don't know a lojban word or it doesn't have one, use the finnish one
02:23:30 <alise> also, you can combine lojban and finnish words into one
02:24:17 <oklopol> but wouldn't that be really gay
02:24:44 <oklopol> btw i have no idea what "Vliaikainen takuu palkinto" means
02:24:51 <oklopol> you can tell me if you know
02:26:05 <pikhq> HOW THE HECK IS THIS DAMNED THING GETTING "Set 0 : Add 1"?
02:26:39 <uorygl> ¡Ay, my Internet cut out.
02:26:57 <uorygl> What's that case meaning "as a ..."?
02:27:23 <uorygl> Here we go, the essive.
02:27:27 <alise> oklopol: just try it plz
02:27:30 <pikhq> Screw it; I'm redoing the optimiser slightly.
02:27:33 <alise> pikhq: not sufficiently reoptimising
02:27:40 <alise> then reiterate until fixpoint
02:27:40 <pikhq> alise: Fixed point, BTW? Good idea.
02:27:44 <alise> slower, yes, who cares
02:27:52 <alise> lost kng is biggest program, if it takes 3 minutes, who cares
02:28:07 <alise> you could divide & conquer actually
02:28:31 <alise> divide program into 2n pieces, fixpoint each, then combine every 2
02:28:36 <oklopol> you'd actually use the translative case :)
02:28:41 <alise> and fixpoint on them
02:28:42 <alise> then combine every 2
02:28:44 <alise> and fixpoint on them
02:28:48 <alise> until there is only one piece left
02:28:55 <alise> i.e., we optimise small clusters, then fix the "seams" at the edges
02:29:01 <uorygl> Wait, there actually is something called a translative case?
02:29:31 <uorygl> So "I can give you all the spam I see as homework" would translate "as homework" using the translative?
02:29:33 <oklopol> yes it's the illative to essive's inessive
02:29:57 <oklopol> yeah it's sort of "for homework"
02:30:07 <oklopol> i give this stuff to you so that it becomes homework
02:30:22 <oklopol> so not really at all for i guess
02:30:22 <uorygl> Huh. What is this peculiarity to?
02:30:49 <uorygl> (Yay for using prepositions in strange ways.)
02:30:56 <pikhq> alise: Hrm. Actually, I'm having a thinko on how to do this. Care to explain what you think so I feel less stupid?
02:31:04 <oklopol> well see if you give something then translative, when it is something it's essive.
02:31:17 <oklopol> you give it to be homework, and then it is your homework
02:31:24 <pikhq> "fix . opt' $ xs" seems wrong somehow.
02:31:46 <alise> pikhq: simple -- also that wouldn't work:
02:31:52 <oklopol> if you told me you've been given something as homework, there would be no change going on, and you'd use the essive, "minulla on lksyn hauskanpitoa"
02:31:53 <alise> opt (foo : bar : xs) = foobar : xs
02:31:54 <uorygl> opt' xs is a function whose fixed point you want to find?
02:32:02 <pikhq> Like I said, seems wrong.
02:32:09 <alise> opty x = if opt x == x then x else opt x
02:32:15 <alise> (you can bind it elsewhere if you wish)
02:32:17 <alise> pikhq: one exception,
02:32:19 <alise> opt (x:xs) = opt xs
02:32:23 <alise> opt (x:xs) = x : opt xs
02:32:28 <alise> that should be the only recursion
02:32:32 <alise> basically chop out all recursions
02:32:37 <alise> apart from that one
02:33:15 <oklopol> FOR EVERY TOTAL COMPUTABLE FUNCTION f : N -> N THERE IS SOME n SUCH THAT n AND f(n) PERFORM THE SAME OPERATION.
02:34:44 <alise> oklopol: HEY THAT'S NOT TRUE MAN
02:34:51 <alise> oklopol: f(n) = S(n)
02:34:53 <alise> WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW HUH
02:35:13 <uorygl> S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(...
02:35:19 <alise> fix(f) = n s.t. [f(n) = n] = n s.t. [S(n) = n] = disproven beyotch
02:35:21 <uorygl> Hmm, but that doesn't count.
02:35:22 <alise> uorygl: that's not a natural
02:35:34 <uorygl> The successor function simply has no fixed point!
02:35:35 <oklopol> WELL UMM THE TURING MACHINES THAT n AND f(n) HAPPEN TO INDEX IN OUR GDEL NUMBERING, I SUPPOSE THAT'S A BIT IMPORTANT
02:35:44 <alise> I would so end my proofs with "Q.E.fuckin'.D." were I ever to be published
02:35:49 <alise> oklopol: WELL YEAH I GUESS THAT IS TRUE LOL.
02:35:51 <oklopol> actually that's not at all important really
02:36:03 <alise> oklopol: ONLY IF YOU CONSTRUCT YOUR GOEDEL NUMBERING LIKE THAT
02:36:27 <oklopol> but yeah you can't make a total computable function that checks how many things a tm prints and prints one more
02:36:28 <pikhq> alise: Also, don't you mean opty x = if opt x == x then x else opty x
02:36:39 <alise> pikhq: read that again
02:36:44 <uorygl> Yeah, what if your Gödel numbering says "if it's odd, output A and subtract one; otherwise, output B; in any case, continue"?
02:36:47 <alise> then amend the recursion
02:37:19 <alise> pikhq: opty x = ... else opty x
02:37:40 <oklopol> the gdel numbering means a surjection from naturals to the set of all turing machines
02:37:47 <uorygl> Clearly it's supposed to be opt (opty x). :P
02:37:55 <uorygl> I guess not every Turing machine immediately outputs one of those.
02:38:17 <pikhq> "opty x = if opt x == x then x else opt x" doesn't quite seem right, though.
02:38:25 <uorygl> Right, it's opty (opt x).
02:38:45 <pikhq> Wait. Find the fixpoint of *that*. Okay.
02:39:05 <alise> oklopol: but you can easily have a goedel numbering where n+1 always outputs something different to n
02:39:13 <alise> the numbering doesn't have to be computable does it :)
02:39:22 <uorygl> Surely the numbering does have to be computable.
02:40:06 <uorygl> Because otherwise the stuff we've said is true would be false. :P
02:40:17 <alise> oklopol: but you can easily have a goedel numbering where n+1 always outputs something different to n
02:40:20 <alise> even if it's computable
02:40:23 <pikhq> Now to figure out where my type error's from.
02:40:26 <alise> i assert this conjecture without proof or knowledge
02:40:28 <alise> I'm just asserting it
02:40:30 <alise> pikhq: lern2haskel
02:40:46 <pikhq> alise: It's been a while, okay?
02:40:57 <uorygl> alise: well, then, you must be wrong. :P
02:41:02 <oklopol> err yes the fixed point theorem requires the gdel numbering is computable
02:41:15 <alise> SHUT UP I DENY YOUR THEOREMA
02:41:32 <alise> now make a computable algorithm to find the fixed point bitch
02:42:07 <pikhq> "Couldn't match [BF] -> [BF] against inferred [BF]" Clearly, I am being stupid about something.
02:43:01 <alise> oklopol: also is it only for N -> N? you sure
02:43:12 <coppro> pikhq: that's a function
02:43:20 <coppro> it's trying to match it to a non-function
02:43:23 <oklopol> alise: yes, any total computable function from turing machines to turing machines
02:43:35 <alise> pikhq: fix :: (a -> a) -> a
02:43:45 <alise> pikhq: so opt'' should be ([BF] -> [BF]) -> [BF] -> [BF}
02:43:46 <alise> pikhq: so opt'' should be ([BF] -> [BF]) -> [BF] -> [BF]
02:43:51 <alise> pikhq: protip: you don't want fix
02:43:59 <alise> pikhq: just write a fucking recursive function
02:44:02 <pikhq> alise: Yes, it works without fix
02:44:12 <Sgeo_> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5351459
02:44:17 <pikhq> See, I was being stupid.
02:44:22 <Sgeo_> I would not have been able to tell you which president resigned
02:44:24 <alise> oklopol: goedel reals <3
02:44:49 <Sgeo_> Mind you, I didn't go and say "I don't think any presidents resigned"
02:45:08 <Sgeo_> alise, I know that now
02:45:12 <alise> i didn't know but... i'm not american, and nixon was _basically_ impeached
02:45:31 <alise> (in my fantasy land)
02:45:37 <alise> hey nixon's middle name is milhous(e)
02:46:10 <oklopol> let h be the computable function, then let f(x) = h(x(x)), now f(f) = h(f(f)), where x(y) means x is curried with y
02:46:50 <oklopol> i guess i couldn't just googled that without using my half-asleep brain
02:47:31 <oklopol> you need total-computable gdels so that currying works, i think
02:48:23 * Sgeo_ posts his confession in the thread
02:48:43 <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing.
02:49:42 <pikhq> No, it's doing "+[-]+" -> [Add 2]
02:49:57 <pikhq> Rather than [Set 1]
02:50:10 <alise> Sgeo_: if you want to become intelligent howsabout not reading fark
02:50:17 <alise> pikhq: look at the code i suggest.
02:50:26 <alise> `addquot <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
02:50:27 <alise> `addquote <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
02:50:35 <HackEgo> 168|<pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
02:50:43 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
02:50:58 <HackEgo> 114|<Eeyore> I used to have salt licks for my horses. They would make cool abstract sculptures with them.
02:51:03 <HackEgo> 120|<Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
02:51:21 <HackEgo> 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
02:51:25 <HackEgo> 113|<xan> if you watch jaws backwards it's a movie about a giant shark that throws up so many people they have to open a beach
02:51:28 <HackEgo> 70|<pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
02:51:32 <HackEgo> 90|<oklopol> hmm, this is hard
02:51:34 <HackEgo> 103|<oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program
02:51:38 <HackEgo> 56|<oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
02:51:41 <HackEgo> 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
02:51:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:52:05 * pikhq see no way for that to happen
02:52:07 <alise> nobody's changed it...
02:52:22 <alise> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/4bc215bfa512/bin/quote
02:52:34 <alise> selected too many times and got corrupted and/or just lock is stuck?
02:52:38 <alise> `sqlite3 quotes/quote.db
02:52:44 <alise> `run sqlite3 quotes/quote.db 2>&1
02:53:25 <pikhq> I think HackEgo broke.
02:57:47 <pikhq> "add ecx, -1;add ecx, -1"
02:57:55 <pikhq> HOW DID IT DO THAT
02:58:51 <pikhq> Would seem to only be doing that in loops. That's actually helpful.
02:59:36 <pikhq> Or, it would be if THAT MADE ANY SENSE
03:02:17 <pikhq> (and yes, I *am* recursing into loops)
03:04:47 * pikhq attempts to find a test case
03:10:22 <alise> pikhq: just use BFoptimlangijgj
03:10:27 <uorygl> oklopol: how do you determine where to put empty lines?
03:13:02 <uorygl> Perhaps the distance between lines should be proportional to the probability of a page fault.
03:13:26 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, there exists a way for the optimiser to *not* recurse into a loop.
03:13:31 <pikhq> opt' (Loop x : xs) = Loop (opt' x) : xs
03:13:43 <alise> pikhq: silly rabbit
03:13:46 <pikhq> How, pray tell, is it possible to not recurse?
03:13:48 <alise> opt' (Loop x : xs) = Loop (opty x) : xs
03:13:56 <alise> trix are for kids#
03:14:07 <alise> Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck, fuck fuck
03:14:15 <pikhq> alise: Still not recursing!
03:14:24 <alise> recurse an anus then paste the code
03:14:44 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ieEV
03:15:17 <alise> you fail out of operation bitch.
03:15:25 <alise> opt :: [BF] -> [BF]
03:15:26 <alise> opt (Loop x : xs) = opt $ xs
03:15:37 <alise> your program is structured shittily, dude
03:15:54 <alise> actually i think you should be banned from coding
03:15:57 <alise> clean this shit up
03:16:09 <pikhq> Any other suggestions?
03:16:20 <alise> pikhq: http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs
03:16:24 <alise> make it look more like this.
03:16:42 <alise> (which is actually really elegant haskell code)
03:16:47 <alise> (and was state of the art until esotope)
03:17:04 <alise> in fact, just modify the code there to output asm
03:17:10 <alise> it already optimises multiplication and shit, and does for loops
03:17:34 <pikhq> That's actually a really good idea.
03:19:20 <alise> what, just modifying that or doing those optimisations?
03:19:22 <alise> I presume the former
03:20:10 <alise> it has some weirdness, like it uses hugely negative numbers as tape locations to indicate program doing io and stuff
03:20:15 <alise> but those are way outside the array range anyway
03:20:21 <alise> i'd change the list import to Data.List, though
03:20:31 <alise> pikhq: thankfully the backend is very abstracted
03:20:40 <uorygl> There's this pillow near me that has sixteen colored circles, arranged in a square.
03:20:45 <alise> just modify after -- output to -- main
03:20:51 <uorygl> I just realize that the colors of the circles correspond to the Gaussian integers modulo 5.
03:21:02 <pikhq> Just rewriting the output section.
03:21:40 <alise> imo bf2c.hs is the nicest BF compiler yet, because it's -- well, not close to esotope, but it does a lot of very important optimisations -- and the code is really, really elegant
03:22:01 <alise> 2002 vintage haskell :)
03:22:59 <alise> http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Author/2851361.aspx this guy likes sudoku a lot
03:23:06 <alise> same bertram felgenhauer, I wonder? probably.
03:23:36 <alise> pikhq: also, the license on that code is a little ambiguous
03:23:43 <alise> "GPL", but since it was published 2002 it's GPL2 with nigh-on uncertainty
03:23:54 <alise> i suggest leaving that line as-is
03:24:06 <alise> oh, that's not all the changes
03:24:06 <alise> -- act as a simple filter; read brainfuck code from stdin and
03:24:07 <alise> -- write C code to stdout.
03:24:15 <alise> change C code to "assembly" :P
03:24:49 <pikhq> alise: By the GPL license, just saying "GPL" means "any version, at your choice".
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03:25:03 <alise> pikhq: i don't believe the gpl license has the power to dictate what arbitrary text means when it uses a name
03:25:12 <alise> but, uh, just leave the line there :P
03:25:22 <coppro> no, but convention does
03:25:41 <pikhq> alise: It's part of the versioning text...
03:25:46 <coppro> if you can reasonably assume he means any version of the GPL, then it does
03:26:02 <alise> coppro: ok lawyer :P
03:26:06 <coppro> (provided for normal mistake law to apply if not)
03:26:08 <pikhq> Of each and every such version of the GPL.
03:26:36 <coppro> the actual text of the GPL is irrelevant
03:27:22 <coppro> it could say "the term 'pumpernickel' means 'GPL'" and it wouldn't matter; what would matter is if people actually used 'pumpernickel' that way
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03:27:49 * pikhq notes that the Term outputting code will be slightly annoying to do in assembly
03:28:09 <alise> pikhq: that's the price to pay for optimisation~
03:28:39 <alise> pikhq: just make it instead "spitOutTermCommandsSoThatTheyAppearInSomeFuckingAwesomeRegisterHellsYeah"
03:29:34 * pikhq shall see about loading into esp
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03:34:59 <alise> Reads ASCII data as input. Produces a portable graymap with pixel val‐
03:35:00 <alise> ues which are an approximation of the "brightness" of the ASCII charac‐
03:35:00 <alise> ters, assuming black-on-white printing. In other words, a capital M is
03:35:00 <alise> very dark, a period is ver light, and a space is white. Input lines
03:35:00 <alise> which are fewer than width characters are automatically padded with
03:36:33 <pikhq> Another advantage: it'll be possible to compile LostKng without 3G of RAM handy.
03:50:12 <pikhq> Laziness prevaileth!
03:50:25 <alise> I wanted to see it
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06:04:29 <Sgeo_> "There is currently none, but the sources are commented. If you need help, read comments. If you still need help, ask your friends. For more help, visit some discussion forum. If you are completely despaired, create your own forum. If you are ready to commit suicide, well, drop me a mail (ollydbg at t-online de). Set subject to PaperBack, or you will be considered spam and filtered out. Allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery."
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07:30:50 <coppro> Does anyone know what the first number in an X display specification is? (:0.0). I know that the second is the screen and the first somehow specifies the display; is it a port-related thing?
07:32:42 <pikhq> That number is added to some constant that I don't recall to get the actual TCP port.
07:33:25 <pikhq> Also, doesn't necessarily go over TCP; xlib on local host will generally do it all via shared memory, for instance.
07:33:52 <coppro> that's not fundamental to the protocol, though
07:34:11 <pikhq> No, that's just a common optimisation.
07:34:37 <pikhq> Strictly speaking, more of an *extension* to the protocol than anything else.
07:35:04 <pikhq> Which works well because what sort of mad-man doesn't use xlib or xcb?
07:35:24 <pikhq> (or a library that indirectly uses either one)
07:35:45 <coppro> pikhq: someone implementing a server
07:36:12 <pikhq> coppro: For a client.
07:36:32 <pikhq> Someone implementing a server is just moderately mad because there's a *lot* of stuff to X.
07:37:23 <coppro> yeah, I'm definitely moderately mad
07:37:44 <coppro> I want a server that allows me to run a program on it and forward it to another server, and then disconnect and/or reconnect it as necessary
07:37:57 <coppro> possibly to a different server
07:38:50 <pikhq> Oh, so you're reimplementing that xdetach thing that's not been maintained in ages?
07:38:55 <pikhq> Thank you thank you thank you.
07:41:21 <coppro> XD-tach is the working name
07:49:32 <coppro> I'm going to be using Erlang since it feels very right
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10:26:55 <oklopol> i'm intrigued by both your messages.
10:27:15 <oklopol> can you elaborate on both in one sentence
10:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I heard sounds not dissimilar to a dog coming from my fireplace and the entry made by Finland to Eurovision was awesome.
10:37:02 <oklopol> okay what was the awesome one?
10:39:12 <oklopol> well i'm not sure where you're from so
10:40:54 <oklopol> well uk us what's the diff :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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10:43:39 <oklopol> i don't think that's elkeliset's best work
10:44:27 <oklopol> okay the ending is awesome
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11:42:23 <coppro> xd-tach progressed tonight!
11:42:24 <coppro> it can now connect to an X server and then drop the connection
11:42:59 <coppro> my detachable X server
11:45:31 <coppro> I'll probably implement a third of the protocol myself before dropping it and switching to Xnest
11:47:53 <coppro> (although Xnest doesn't do everything I want it to
12:26:25 * Phantom_Hoover still doesn't get how you can have Windows programs that can't be removed in Windows
12:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> `translate Arbeit sukzessive beantworten mchte, soweit mglich:
12:32:21 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
12:32:48 <CakeProphet> ...it's been a while. I don't even know if anyone remembers me. :P
12:34:05 <CakeProphet> You probably weren't around a few years ago
12:34:20 <cheater99> is this some attempt at grassroots politics
12:34:45 <CakeProphet> -ahem- no. I was just thinking about a modification to bf, and so I thought now would be a good time to refrequent this channel.
12:35:50 <CakeProphet> I was also wondering... has anyone seen a modification of bf to emulate a non-deterministic or probabilistic (or quantum) Turing machine?
12:37:05 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: well I'm in rough draft stages at the moment... but essentially it's like usable brainfuck with inter-algorithm communication.
12:38:11 <CakeProphet> So you make a set of named super-bf programs... and then declare how their inputs and outputs connect, and they all run concurrently. Another important addition is that there's now three, yes /three/, pipelines for both input and output
12:39:08 <CakeProphet> two are generally equivalent... but are labelled "data" and "control" to signify the semantics they're intended for... and then the third is "system", which communicates with a global environment
12:39:43 <CakeProphet> rofl. I'm going with Cook for the moment... but maybe Alan.
12:40:05 <CakeProphet> the idea is that you can construct /useful/ programs
12:40:21 <CakeProphet> out of a series of running turing machines configured with better IO support.
12:40:45 <CakeProphet> having data and control are so that raw data can be seperated from control protocols cleanly
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12:41:47 <CakeProphet> but yeah, I guess semantically system plugs up to an invisible "system" thread that implements a protocol that I've yet to specify, but would allow individual threads to request system information, kill themselves, kill the process, etc... system stuff.
12:42:11 <CakeProphet> so you could make libraries out of turing machines... by documenting the protocol they use.
12:43:07 <CakeProphet> also it's not quite like pipes in the sense that you can multiplex... there's nothing forbidding you from having one of your channels being broadcasted to multiple threads
12:43:48 <CakeProphet> or, a less useful case, reading a multiplexed stream being send by multiple threads as your input channel
12:44:25 <CakeProphet> so it's kind of like graph instead of a straight line
12:45:48 <CakeProphet> conceivably you could get like GUI support or something. It would be a good way to define an operating system entirely with abstract bf-like turing machines. Actually I think there was a project trying to do just that a while back; maybe I can borrow some ideas
12:47:43 <CakeProphet> I was also considering making the superset of bf I'm using non-deterministic
12:48:05 <cheater99> hey.. will bcrypt always generate hashes starting with $2a$? or will it sometimes generate ones starting with $2$?
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12:51:30 <CakeProphet> I've always loved old-school internet protocols like TELNET
12:51:51 <CakeProphet> so... this is going to be a lot of fun for me. Drafting up protocols to system resources and such
12:52:41 <cheater99> you could learn MPI and just use tht
12:52:56 <cheater99> and then make an erlang-controlled cluster of brainfucks
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12:55:35 <cheater99> but it's useful and makes for a slim slim slim chance someone else will actually use your shit.
12:56:20 <CakeProphet> Once I finish a naive compiler, I might implement a scheduler that manages a bunch of soft threads. I bet you could actually use source code analysis to devise a very optimal scheduler
12:56:26 <CakeProphet> since the source code for bf is so simple.
12:58:50 <CakeProphet> and no. I don't really care if it gets used. I just want to see if the inclusion of those three channels, and maybe non-determinism, gives bf more utility.
12:59:57 <cheater99> you determine utility through community exposure
13:04:02 <coppro> Telnet is barely a protocol
13:04:20 <CakeProphet> this does not negate its awesomeness though.
13:04:34 <CakeProphet> it's like a meta-protocol, really. It's a way to make agreements about your protocol.
13:05:12 <coppro> Netcat With Bells and Whistles On
13:08:32 <CakeProphet> Once I figure out the full specs for this and get a semi-not-embarassing compiler
13:09:27 <CakeProphet> I will need to have something to test its utility
13:10:34 <CakeProphet> well yeah, that's how it'll be implemented probably.
13:11:52 <CakeProphet> and then for the system channel I'll just dump in the runtime code that handles the protocol
13:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you could directly multiplex pipes if you weren't going for portability.
13:14:43 <CakeProphet> the piping semantics will be implemented by the compiler. A bunch of tape arrays and queue arrays with soft threads.
13:15:13 <CakeProphet> I think OS threads and processes are too heavyweight to run what easily get up to 20-30 individual turing machines
13:22:33 <CakeProphet> you could have a channel for each alphabetic character. lowercase is read, uppercase write. :D
13:23:05 <CakeProphet> but I think there's a word for that. Unecessary.
13:27:21 <CakeProphet> they're probably off being cooler than us.
13:27:59 <cheater99> there's only one person i look up to
13:30:53 <oklopol> yeah i'm being totally awesome
13:31:06 <oklopol> been awake for 3.5 hours, done nothing.
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13:33:13 <cheater99> i have invoked you to tell you exactly one thing
13:33:17 <cheater99> and it is that lena won eurovision
13:33:25 <CakeProphet> actually I'm pretty awesome. I'm using a command line IRC client right now.
13:33:30 <alise> oh, not CakeProphet
13:33:39 <CakeProphet> if it's on command line, it's immediately cooler than any GUI equivalent
13:34:00 <alise> what an idiotic thing to say
13:34:35 <alise> apparently, i am in a grumpy mood
13:34:44 <alise> 04:48:05 <cheater99> hey.. will bcrypt always generate hashes starting with $2a$? or will it sometimes generate ones starting with $2$?
13:34:48 <alise> i think the paper answers that
13:34:52 <alise> though i do not recall
13:35:52 <CakeProphet> I think my first development project for Cook will be an interactive interpreter. Don't even ask me how, but it will be amazing.
13:36:28 <alise> the .ps i linked you
13:36:42 <alise> can't find it now :))
13:37:05 <cheater99> it's ok, i save everything i get from you in a personal spot on the hard drive
13:37:59 <CakeProphet> hmmmm.... actually I think I could make a hash table in what is currently Cook/Alan/Drainfuck.
13:38:54 <CakeProphet> kind of boring... but more professional, or something.
13:40:47 <CakeProphet> hmmm... a hash table would actually be kind of hard to do.
13:41:26 <cheater99> oklopol, i know dude, they should make a dinosaur comic about it
13:41:58 <CakeProphet> you would need a hash algorithm process... which would be the easier part I think
13:42:27 <CakeProphet> and then you'd need a generic array process... that allows read/write of a 256-index array through a protocol of some kind.
13:43:12 <CakeProphet> ....unfortunately I'm not a very good BF programmer, so I wouldn't even know how to approach most of this.
13:45:11 <alise> BF modifications are usually not the most elegant of things.
13:45:25 <alise> separate the core concept into its own language.
13:46:14 <CakeProphet> well... the core concept is to have a basic turing machine language that can actually do something useful through a well-organized set of protocols and could IO facilities between them.
13:46:26 <alise> fractran =: (*{~1 i.~[@(=<.)@:*)
13:46:29 <alise> ^ fractran interp in J
13:46:34 <alise> oklopol: J is awesome
13:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Adapting BF has the major advantage of giving you a sizeable body of code to use, though.
13:47:33 <alise> oklopol: haha wow you can even enter input in "fraction" form
13:47:33 <alise> conwayPrimer =: 17x 78x 19x 23x 29x 77x 95x 77x 1x 11x 13x 15x 15x 55x
13:47:34 <alise> % 91x 85x 51x 38x 33x 29x 23x 19x 17x 13x 11x 14x 2x 1x NB. example program
13:49:56 <alise> http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.7231.png ;; the only true way to view fractran programs.
13:51:06 <alise> the golden ratio is a nice number
13:51:20 <alise> it's just the output of a latex.php :P
13:51:29 <alise> which doesn't rule out porn i guess
13:51:41 <alise> cheater99: it's the first digits of the golden ratio
13:52:02 <cheater99> as mathematician i don't memorize numbers sorry
13:54:06 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I just got a pretty good idea for a macro language
13:54:10 <oklopol> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944
13:54:43 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:55:45 <alise> cheater99: he didn't, i'm almost certain
13:56:06 <alise> also, i don't remember numbers, but recognising 1.618 is innate if you've ever used the golden ratio...
13:56:17 <alise> or would you ask what the significance of "3.14.com" is too?
13:56:21 <oklopol> i also learned the next 60 or so but i seem to have forgotten them 8|
13:56:22 <alise> cheater99: oklopol is not human
13:56:22 <Deewiant> oklopol: I remember that exact amount of digits by heart
13:56:45 <alise> then you're just a hypercorrecting mathematician trying desperately not to seem like a non-mathematician who uses *NUMBERS!*
13:56:50 <oklopol> cheater99: that's pretty cool
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13:57:42 <cheater99> given that a human being can only know the significance of a finite amount of numbers, the probability that he will know the significance of a random real number is zero.
13:57:45 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
13:58:23 <CakeProphet> so I was going to give this language macros, complete with parameters and all that
13:58:44 <CakeProphet> and I just realized... you could actually make textual substitution operators, and then define some really high-level bf macros
13:58:50 <oklopol> cheater99: depends on the probability measure
13:59:01 <CakeProphet> like an operator that changes a parameters >'s to <'s
13:59:18 <cheater99> oklopol, my measure is probably 9"
13:59:24 <CakeProphet> so you can have a memory location getter as a macro parameter
13:59:45 <CakeProphet> and then use the replace operator to return the code back to its original position before the macro was invoked
14:00:20 <oklopol> cheater99: do you mean your dick?
14:00:51 <oklopol> i consider no measure better than the other, because i'm not a real number enthusiast
14:01:18 <CakeProphet> alright, here's another thing I was wondering about... ever considered a non-deterministic brainfuck?
14:01:38 <cheater99> there's a lot of use for non-deterministic musical sequencers
14:01:59 <cheater99> write a non-deterministic brainfuck musical sequencer and you'll be an hero
14:02:03 <CakeProphet> non-deterministic as in being able to specify branch points
14:02:03 <oklopol> my penis is marginally above average in size
14:02:25 <oklopol> well length, it's a lot thicker than average i hear
14:02:25 <CakeProphet> so you can spawn a whole copy of the current state into multiple divergent branches.
14:02:26 <cheater99> oklopol, average depends on the population
14:02:43 <cheater99> oklopol, are you saying it's like a soup can?
14:02:58 <cheater99> there's this old interview with henry rollins
14:03:04 <CakeProphet> #esoteric -- a place for serious discussion
14:03:09 <cheater99> with some annoying twit asking him stupid questions
14:03:34 <alise> oklopol: what's the j thing for inverting a word
14:03:44 <oklopol> i don't remember that either
14:03:47 <cheater99> and he says henry fucked some girl somewhere and she said his dick was like a soup can
14:04:24 <Deewiant> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language)
14:05:09 <alise> so ^. is already taken
14:07:01 <CakeProphet> ...the > to < idea would actually be pretty cool. You could specify memory locations for a macro to work on. You give it the location relative to your current position, and then it can replace all >'s to < in your macro parameter to refer and return back to its last position
14:07:12 <alise> The power of this formalism comes from viewing numbers as products of prime powers. For example, if the input is 2x 3y, the following list gives output 5xy, essentially multiplying x by y:
14:07:15 <alise> this doesn't seem to work :((
14:13:29 <alise> >700 KiB/s on torrents, man, living near the exchange is awesome
14:14:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
14:15:52 <alise> I wrote a meta-language that compiles down to Fractran. It allows for functions (simple Fractran and sequences of other functions), and a while loop and if statement (for convenience!). The code for that can be found here.
14:16:02 <alise> ^ from the "making of" of the fractran self-interp
14:16:44 <alise> http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~beder/interpreter.frp fractran interp in it
14:17:06 <alise> I don't recommend actually trying to run the Fractran interpreter (alas). I tested many of its components, and, for example, the function IncrementPrimes, which takes a pair of primes and returns the next two primes, takes about 8 minutes to run, using my silly C++ interpreter (no need to post that :). Plus, it goes (at least) quadratically in the number of function calls - doubling the number of function calls makes it take at least four times as long (more
14:17:07 <alise> if there are while loops or if statements). So I'm guessing that running the interpreter will take at least days, if not years :(
14:17:14 <alise> can't even run 1+1 :)
14:17:41 <alise> @Nick, I figured out the problem - my conversion to Fractran ignored integer overflow (stupid C++). I translated the last step to Python, and re-uploaded the main Fractran code. You'll notice that it's got much bigger numbers! Jesse Beder Nov 22 '09 at 0:23"
14:17:57 <alise> heh, there's at least two fractran self-interps
14:18:36 <alise> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1749905/code-golf-fractran/1773868#1773868
14:18:37 <alise> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1749905/code-golf-fractran/1802570#1802570
14:19:06 <CakeProphet> perhaps you should attempt to compile to Haskell for efficiency. -sagenod-
14:19:42 <alise> CakeProphet: always a good idea
14:19:50 <alise> cheater99: because fuck you if you don't think it is
14:20:32 <cheater99> promises in love you can't hold :-(
14:20:43 <pineapple> alise: without wanting to get fucked... what does it let you do?
14:20:54 <alise> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran
14:21:00 <alise> Conway made it, it's awesome, nuff said
14:21:11 <alise> nobody is at any risk of being fucked.
14:21:31 <cheater99> i wish my browser would run efficiently
14:21:45 <alise> too much math? Seriously?
14:22:12 <alise> cheater99: i'm web 2 point izzo so i chromium in your face :|
14:22:18 <CakeProphet> I'm a programmer... I write programs to do that.
14:22:21 <alise> CakeProphet: yeah we don't have computers to run programs any more
14:22:24 <alise> after the great War
14:22:32 <alise> between Machines and the People
14:22:35 <cheater99> alise: is chromium faster for facebook than firefox is?
14:22:48 <alise> cheater99: chromium is faster than * than firefox is
14:22:56 <alise> = chrome if you're not on loonix
14:23:03 <CakeProphet> Chrome is in general faster for everything. Though the linux release is occasionally buggy.
14:23:30 <alise> CakeProphet: i'm using the linux release
14:23:41 <pineapple> alise: ok... so i get the awesomeness, or at least, i get parts of it... but i can't get a feel for program flow
14:23:43 <CakeProphet> I think it was the beta that was buggy. Imagine that
14:23:50 <alise> pineapple: well it's not easy :P
14:23:52 <CakeProphet> It's been running fine for me as well... now.
14:24:30 <pineapple> alise: i get that feeling about most esolangs :-(
14:26:09 * CakeProphet will need to practice with bf in order to make bitchin' libraries for whatever-this-language-is-going-to-be-called
14:26:28 <oklopol> have you considered anotherderivativefuck
14:26:43 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
14:27:17 <oklopol> brainboringderivative has a pun in it too?
14:27:19 <CakeProphet> but it's sort of the whole point. Unless I can find another way to make a really simple turing machine.
14:27:38 <oklopol> i can make a reeeeally simple turing machine
14:27:50 <oklopol> consider the turing machine that never does anything
14:29:52 <CakeProphet> but yeah... would anyone like to help me figure out how an NP-fuck would work?
14:30:57 <CakeProphet> there'd be a bracket structure to specify two or more branch points...and some way to indicate success
14:31:03 <oklopol> ? puts a random number 0-255 on the tape
14:31:12 <CakeProphet> ...that's not what I mean by non-deterministic
14:31:13 <oklopol> when a ! is encountered the cell must be nonempty
14:31:41 <oklopol> well obviously i mean the nondeterministic kind of random
14:32:03 <CakeProphet> :P but I mean the NP-complete kind of non-deterministic
14:32:33 <oklopol> that's it, although you may want to hone it a bit
14:33:04 <oklopol> basically all you need is to be able to say "take any element of this set" "at this point you need to have chosen such elements from sets that property X is true"
14:33:32 <cheater99> does anyone here use massive amounts of tabs in their browser?
14:33:46 <oklopol> so basically the program will continue running an all paths, and we say it runs in time n if the longest run of all those branches is of length n
14:34:03 <CakeProphet> so you would need a way to specify a branch point right? I thought you left that out.
14:34:40 <oklopol> drop something on the tape that makes sure the next ! doesn't fail
14:34:54 <oklopol> well 256, but that doesn't really matter
14:35:02 <alise> <oklopol> when a ! is encountered the cell must be nonempty
14:35:05 <alise> i didn't know cells could be empty
14:35:05 <oklopol> you can do 0/1 but i'd use a binary tape then too
14:35:18 <alise> <cheater99> does anyone here use massive amounts of tabs in their browser?
14:35:24 <alise> about 15-20-30 tabs per window, about 10 windows
14:35:31 <alise> then my browser freezes and i start again
14:35:32 <oklopol> i don't care if it's ridiculous, i just care if it's pure and beautiful
14:35:57 <CakeProphet> could you solve an NP-complete somewhat sanely with that?
14:36:19 <alise> CakeProphet: no because it will be NP
14:36:22 <cheater99> alise: it swaps out any tab you don't look at for t time
14:36:25 <alise> and P=NP hasn't been solved yet :P
14:36:28 <oklopol> yes, say given an instance of sat you just go over the cells representing the variables
14:36:35 <cheater99> alise: and you can make a whitelist too
14:36:38 <oklopol> and then you run a program that fails if it's not satisfied
14:36:38 <alise> cheater99: no i use chromium and I like having so many useless tabs
14:36:44 <alise> i need window gc though :P
14:36:47 <cheater99> alise: it is the most amazing firefox plugin ever conceived by man.
14:36:53 <alise> CakeProphet: well if you don't like mathematics...
14:36:54 <oklopol> go over the cells representing variables, and use ? to drop some value for them
14:37:03 <alise> CakeProphet: "good luck"
14:37:09 <cheater99> i want to solve the riemann hypothesis
14:37:11 <alise> cheater99: make it a metacity plugin and i'm in
14:37:20 <alise> yeah i want to solve the fucking goldbach and collatz conjectures with the same proof
14:37:20 <oklopol> you can solve any problem in NP in polynomial time with that
14:37:31 <alise> cheater99: gnome's window manager
14:37:43 <alise> technically it's emerald i guess since ubuntu enables compiz...
14:37:49 <CakeProphet> oklopol, ah okay... so ! will terminate branches that don't satisfy the condition.... and you can proceed from there. I like that.
14:37:56 <CakeProphet> the 256 branches is still pretty ridiculous
14:38:05 <oklopol> althought you don't think of them as branches in math
14:38:25 <CakeProphet> ....that's why I'm better at programming than math. :P
14:38:30 <oklopol> you just think of it as a different kind of computation in which you can guess stuff correctly
14:38:53 <oklopol> but anyway for many purposes the branching characterization is best
14:38:59 <CakeProphet> I always think of it as branching, as its slightly easier to understand I think.
14:39:49 <cheater99> what's the magic formula for insert ... on duplicate key update?
14:40:03 <cheater99> i'm trying to do 'insert into dupkey (id, val) values (1, 'hi') on duplicate key update;' but it doesn't work :(
14:40:07 <CakeProphet> ? - picks the number(s) you're looking for
14:40:24 <oklopol> CakeProphet: the other useful way is to think in terms of witnesses, sometimes, basically that you need to be able to check solutions to some puzzle or something
14:41:06 <oklopol> you can "solve" a problem in NP if given *some* infinite sequence (or bounded if you like) you can use it to solve the problem in P
14:41:18 <alise> cheater99: #sql or sth
14:41:32 <cheater99> alise, be a darling and look it up plox
14:41:47 <cheater99> alise: i just got trolled in #mysql because someone doesn't know the difference between the www and the internet
14:42:27 <CakeProphet> oklopol, so... if you had a arbitrary number of non-deterministic brainfuck derivitives with two input instructions and two output structures.... could you sanely implement an interface to a hash table?
14:42:44 <cheater99> <cheater99> i don't have www access this very second... what's that magic formula for insert .. on duplicate key update? <threnody> cheater99: you're on irc <cheater99> threnody, are you saying i should be trying this in a mysql client and then it'll work?<threnody> cheater99: you are connected to the internet
14:42:45 <cheater99> <cheater99> the internet is not the www
14:42:45 <cheater99> <cheater99> i hope you realize this now that i pointed it out
14:46:52 <CakeProphet> oklopol, the interface is simple enough... you'd just have a protocol that had a start and end delimeter for th string key, and the string data would go inbetween. You'd have a lock operator so you could lock the hash tables channel while you input your string... and it would merrily chug out the value from the hash table in the data channel
14:48:30 <CakeProphet> the hash table itself, of course, would just be sitting on the a tape somewhere, with a hash function either seperately implemented in a different thread or in the same one if you're a badass bf hacker (which I'm not)
14:50:33 <CakeProphet> my goal is to make it self-interpreting... and then write an IRC bot that could dynamically load in processes into its runtime environment and connect them dynamically. This is incredibly impossible though
14:50:57 <CakeProphet> a simple IRC bot would be feasible, as would some kind of interpreter... but not both, at once, dynamically
14:54:29 <alise> interpet NP with a P P NP
15:00:25 * CakeProphet will specify integers in base 256 and provide a standard library fr manipulating them :)
15:07:21 <alise> Fractran is listed as TC on the wiki; is there any proof?
15:07:30 <alise> oh, I think there was an interpreter for some non-Fractran language
15:07:56 <CakeProphet> well... conway's game of life is turing complete
15:08:06 <oklopol> you can compile minsky machines to fractran pretty easily i think
15:08:36 <oklopol> i've seen some of the gol gadgets
15:09:31 <oklopol> but i haven't really given it much scrutiny
15:11:27 <oklopol> http://www.rendell-attic.org/gol/utm/picture.htm utm
15:12:31 <oklopol> yes probably 99% of that is just wire
15:12:54 <oklopol> well that's the utm, the first one is just some random turing machine
15:13:22 <oklopol> hard to tell much from the pics, because i don't recognize the purpose of anything but gliders
15:13:25 <alise> <CakeProphet> well... conway's game of life is turing complete
15:13:51 <alise> CakeProphet: the tm is boring, the UTM + universal constructor is more interesting
15:14:01 <alise> + the self-replicating-and-destroying computer spaceship (discovered recently; HUGE period)
15:14:09 <alise> + lightspeed communication with agars :)
15:15:27 <CakeProphet> alise, and no... I was referring to the TM implementation
15:15:37 <alise> so? fractran != GoL
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15:19:22 <CakeProphet> the people who made this UTM should get a prize or something.
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15:21:03 <cheater99> remember how i said i would write dinosaur comics that they should make a comic about Lena
15:21:19 <cheater99> well, i'm just reminding you of this
15:21:35 <cheater99> it will be key in understanding what happens during the rest of your life
15:21:44 <alise> No. No it will not.
15:22:35 <alise> You're more than a little creepy :)
15:23:58 <oklopol> eeeeeveryone is creepy in their own way
15:25:14 <CakeProphet> we have far more tabs than the average person open at a given time, apparently.
15:25:37 * CakeProphet is only running 9 right now. Had several more when he was learning how to identify and pick mushrooms.
15:25:54 <alise> oklopol: yeah but you also have your windows set to entirely white consolas on black
15:25:58 <oklopol> i used to have like 50 million on average but i guess the internet is less interesting nowadays
15:26:03 <alise> from the windows theme to every single page in IE
15:26:09 <alise> so basically you're not normal :D
15:26:20 <oklopol> alise: actually currently i don't because i've switched computers, maybe that's why i'm not using internet much
15:26:31 <alise> oklopol: how could you abandon my work
15:26:42 <alise> it was like the most awesome windows could possibly get
15:26:43 * CakeProphet thinks everything has a better UI when it's done in ncurses
15:26:46 <alise> oklopol: but you still have the files right???
15:26:52 <alise> CakeProphet: yes, poor imitations of GUIs >>>> GUIs.
15:27:00 <alise> if you like command-line stuff at least respect what a command-line program is
15:27:09 <oklopol> alise: maybe. if i get it unboomed for long enough to get them
15:27:11 <CakeProphet> ...I don't actually like command line stuff
15:27:13 <alise> i.e. NOT a W.I.M.P. user interface
15:27:18 <CakeProphet> my old client was attached to firefox, which I no longer use
15:27:26 <CakeProphet> so I downloaded this thing for convenience
15:27:45 <alise> let me guess irssi
15:27:55 <alise> either that or weechat
15:28:24 <CakeProphet> I searched "irc client" in apt-cache... it was the first one to come up. :)
15:28:38 <alise> CakeProphet: just use irssi.
15:28:56 <alise> It's probably the most popular IRC client.
15:29:23 <alise> Although if you like the ircII style maybe this "pork" thing which I looked up is better.
15:29:28 <alise> You could just use BitchX though
15:29:47 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Debianwithgnomedesktop.png Hey, pork on BitchX's wiki page.
15:29:47 <CakeProphet> chatzilla was the shit... it should be standalone
15:30:09 <CakeProphet> it apparently has perl scripting or some nonsense
15:30:13 <alise> http://chatzilla.rdmsoft.com/xulrunner/
15:30:22 <CakeProphet> I tried it earlier but it segfaulted, decided not to try again.
15:30:37 <alise> (customised to not look like shit)
15:30:40 <CakeProphet> might have something to do with me knowing absolutely nothing about perl
15:31:22 <alise> CakeProphet: my present IRC vehicle: http://imgur.com/herQr.png
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15:33:20 <CakeProphet> they're almost exactly the same in interface.
15:34:19 <alise> then alt-2 to get back
15:34:23 <alise> (esc 1/esc 2 if that doesn't work)
15:34:50 <CakeProphet> ...I didn't read the second bit about alt-2 before I did alt-1
15:34:57 <CakeProphet> but I kind of caught the pattern, I guess.
15:35:57 <alise> yeah it's one channel per window type dealie
15:36:05 <alise> I think /w works, I forget
15:36:21 <alise> Also, pgup/pgdwn work, and I think alt-pgup/pgdwn work too
15:36:24 <alise> Maybe alt-left/right, I forget
15:39:45 <CakeProphet> instead of a monolithic system message handler thing
15:40:33 <CakeProphet> I might allow C code to wrap some low-level stuff and then have bindings to said code
15:45:44 <cheater99> http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/maps/adv_3.gif
15:46:13 <alise> cheater99: have you read knuth's literate programming version of ADVENT?
15:46:39 <alise> http://www.literateprogramming.com/adventure.pdf
15:47:07 <cheater99> do you know what version the linux 'adventure' is?
15:48:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:48:50 <alise> In 1977, Jim Gillogly of the RAND Corporation spent several weeks porting the code from FORTRAN to C under Unix, with the agreement of both Woods and Crowther. It can be found as part of the BSD Operating Systems distributions, or as part of the "bsdgames" package under most Linux distributions, under the command name "adventure".
15:48:54 <alise> so the same one in that pdf
15:51:06 <cheater99> alise: how do i use evince for pdf?
15:51:14 <alise> cheater99: double click the pdf
15:51:32 <oerjan> long time no see, i think
15:52:01 <CakeProphet> I got an idea for a bf-like language and decided it would be opportune to start visiting this channel again.
15:52:04 <alise> cheater99: umm what distro are you using
15:53:09 <alise> http://pastie.org/984342.txt?key=9f9cibbfzj1vkxyfj2blsq Some nondeterministic sketches; array selection and superpositions.
15:53:15 <oerjan> hm i note a disturbing relapse to latin-1 in the irc logs lately
15:53:31 <alise> oerjan: the server sends no encoding headers
15:53:34 <alise> so it's up to your browser to guess
15:53:42 <alise> we really need a nice log interface
15:53:44 <alise> ever since ircbrowse died...
15:54:13 <oerjan> alise: i mean that people are actually _sending_ latin-1 in many cases
15:55:00 <CakeProphet> it's been so long I've forgotten the standard bot command character
15:55:11 <oerjan> i'm quite used to adjusting my browser whenever it guesses the logs wrong
15:55:15 <alise> EgoBot is rewritten
15:55:22 <alise> HackEgo is a free-for-all sandboxed shell
15:55:28 <alise> It uses `, with `run foo running a shell command with multiple args.
15:55:33 <alise> fungot is written in Befunge.
15:55:33 <fungot> alise: check this out at the grocery store before it closes. :( making this crypto. just
15:55:34 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
15:55:39 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
15:55:49 <alise> It babbles, interprets Brainfuck and Underload, and does so many other things.
15:55:54 <alise> And it's written in Befunge-98; have a click.
15:55:57 <alise> And that's all our bots.
15:56:04 <alise> cheater99: what did you DO?
15:56:07 <alise> and screenshot the error
15:56:13 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
15:56:21 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
15:56:33 <alise> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
15:56:34 <fungot> alise: i guess drscheme has more bizarre limits on the number of legitimate e-mail.
15:56:38 <alise> fungot is by far our most impressive bot
15:56:38 <fungot> alise: what was the name
15:56:42 <alise> CakeProphet: we did have lambdabot for a while
15:56:49 <alise> fungot: you even do multiple styles:
15:56:50 <fungot> alise: according to one's intuition of the shapes formed by quenching the metal in cold water. you would not have bothered to help an fnord archive.
15:56:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
15:56:54 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
15:56:56 <alise> fungot: In wonderland.
15:56:57 <oerjan> CakeProphet: EgoBot does haskell though not as conveniently as lambdabot
15:57:01 <alise> fungot: yo yo talk
15:57:04 <alise> oerjan: ping fungot plz
15:57:09 <fungot> Deewiant: the knight looked surprised at the question. " if i was oo," said arthur, looking at the house, from below, and pulled down by some one on the planet. then of course the house goes faster than its natural rate of falling: but the snark exclaimed " fnord!"
15:57:17 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
15:57:39 <alise> If any esolang enthusiast doesn't go into a state of awe upon seeing http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 after seeing what it can do... they have no soul.
15:57:40 <fungot> alise: it means ' fnord' and lots of drugs
15:57:46 <alise> Precisely, fungot. Precisely.
15:57:47 <fungot> alise: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has to be a
15:58:41 <alise> We already knew that -- you implemented the engine upon which fungot sits.
15:58:42 <fungot> alise: if not, you're intricately tied to the parser is very simple
15:58:45 <alise> Or is it still cfunge nowadays?
15:59:18 <alise> CakeProphet: Does it look like noise?
15:59:21 <CakeProphet> I know very very little about Befunge over than it's 2d
15:59:23 <alise> CakeProphet: that's because it's befunge-98 :P
15:59:35 <CakeProphet> :P (don't remember how to do that nonsense with IRC commands)
15:59:39 <alise> CakeProphet: Well -98 is the horribly twisted sequel to Befunge with fingerprints (libraries, basically, so there's socket support and much much more),
15:59:45 <alise> CakeProphet: and also far more complex & advanced semantics
15:59:52 <alise> and bignums, the stack is replaced by a stack of multiple stacks,
15:59:59 <alise> and near-infinitely-sized fungespace...
16:00:05 <alise> (well, limited by bit size)
16:00:24 <oerjan> HackEgo: you're broken
16:00:32 <alise> i broke it yesterdya
16:00:36 <alise> by asking for too many quotes :D
16:01:09 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:01:23 <alise> yeah it's the shell part that's broken
16:01:37 <alise> also hey don't revert my quote :P
16:01:42 <alise> CakeProphet: oh yeah and HackEgo, when it's working, is our official quote database
16:02:01 <alise> filled with 90% stuff here, 8% stupid stuff from sine, and 2% stuff that isn't actually quotes at all, or at least not from around here
16:02:11 <alise> oerjan: the revert didn't work btw
16:02:35 <alise> 3 daysHackBotbranch merge
16:02:40 <alise> Maybe this update introduced a bug of some sort?
16:02:42 <alise> Assuming it's an update.
16:03:09 <CakeProphet> so I'm thinking instead of using a straight-up bf-like syntax
16:03:17 <CakeProphet> I'm going to make what is essentially a usable bf
16:03:31 <CakeProphet> with commands that take parameters and such
16:04:31 <CakeProphet> and maybe even integer and character literals if I'm feeling crazy
16:04:49 <oerjan> CakeProphet: HackEgo also uses to have useful ways to lookup things on the web (google etc.) although some of them are broken too
16:05:13 <oerjan> EgoBot is the one with lots of esolangs, including ones we've added ourselves
16:05:21 <CakeProphet> I always thought an I'm feeling lucky command would be useful... to link people to things quickly
16:05:47 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
16:05:52 <oerjan> CakeProphet: as alise said, it's been majorly rewritten.
16:05:59 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
16:06:14 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
16:06:52 <oerjan> you add the code for your interpreter in one of the !languages
16:07:01 <oerjan> (it doesn't recurse alas)
16:07:16 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:07:24 <oerjan> i mean you cannot add userinterps based on userinterps
16:07:50 <CakeProphet> oh okay... so you define an interpreter in another language that it knows?
16:08:42 <CakeProphet> and by learn ASM I really mean memorize an instruction set.
16:08:42 <oerjan> a lot of those userinterps are just language garbling...
16:08:50 * alise looks for sgeo's quote file
16:08:53 <alise> (hackego's quotes in a text file)
16:08:54 <oerjan> !swedish I am the swedish chef.
16:08:55 <EgoBot> I em zee svedeesh cheff. Bork Bork Bork!
16:09:03 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
16:09:10 <Sgeo> alise, that would be dependent on Normish still existing
16:09:20 -!- uorygl has joined.
16:09:20 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for !
16:10:15 <Sgeo> I'll see what I can do
16:10:36 <oerjan> CakeProphet: the source can be a url, so the interpreters don't need to fit in one line. also if you !show them, you need DCC CHAT to get the whole thing
16:10:41 <alise> isn't there a site which runs a little web page for you in a sandbox or something?
16:10:43 <alise> with some scripting language
16:10:46 <alise> i'm sure there is...
16:10:55 <alise> we can use egobot to generate a file with hackego's quotes!
16:10:57 <alise> now someone do that
16:11:16 * CakeProphet has a free webpage provided by his university. Could host interpreters there.
16:11:28 <alise> i think i theoretically still have that vps
16:11:29 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i'm not sure, Gregor named those language garblers rather weirdly, not as usual
16:11:40 <alise> ix-nay on the atin-lay
16:11:44 <CakeProphet> The only interpreter I have is one for BF written in Haskell.. which is hardly necessary.
16:12:00 <oerjan> (it's from some old unix/linux joke package i think)
16:12:23 <CakeProphet> hmmm... it would be amazing if it could handle language imports through URL
16:12:35 <CakeProphet> so like... I could put the Python interpreter on my web page and load it in. :P
16:12:57 <alise> just write a haskell progam and compile it >_>
16:13:03 <alise> or use that py2binary thing
16:13:19 <CakeProphet> ...I'm far too lazy to actual make my own Python interpreter
16:13:38 <alise> ...i never suggested that
16:13:39 <oerjan> CakeProphet: that might be a bit too large. it does afaik recompile every userinterpreter whenever you use it
16:13:58 <CakeProphet> oh okay... that's why it's kind of slow it seems.
16:14:17 <oerjan> (or pass it to the underlying language interpreter, to be precise)
16:15:03 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you _should_ be able to do that with HackEgo, if it were working
16:15:23 <CakeProphet> alise: oh, you're saying I should compile the python interpreter and then have a script that invokes it.
16:15:34 <alise> CakeProphet: although that would work.
16:15:44 <alise> CakeProphet: but really, all you need to do is use one of those python to binary bundlers
16:15:46 <alise> that bundles the interp in
16:15:47 <cheater99> who will guess what i am having a sandwich with
16:15:52 <alise> CakeProphet: binaries can be cgis too you know
16:15:56 <alise> OR, just write it in haskell and compile that.
16:16:06 <CakeProphet> I didn't know py2exe would just bundle the interpreter standalone.
16:16:51 <alise> py2exe is justwindows only isn't it
16:16:57 <alise> i'm sure there's a linux equiv
16:17:18 <alise> `run sqlite3 quotes/quote.db VACUUM
16:17:25 <alise> cheater99: not on shared hosting...
16:17:35 <alise> just upload a linux python binary + invoke it with a shell script cgi if that's the case
16:17:42 <CakeProphet> Python's hardly worth the trouble though... unless I expand a { } ; version of the syntax first before I run the interpreter
16:18:19 <alise> egobot accepts urls
16:18:23 <alise> !python http://google.com
16:18:28 <alise> !c http://google.com
16:18:43 <alise> that loaded http://google.com and interpreted it as c source
16:18:46 <CakeProphet> alise: so that I can use {}'s instead of indents on a single line
16:18:59 <alise> to make a !python command
16:19:03 <alise> my bot had that once
16:19:14 <alise> ; to newline (so it worked for control structures), { and } worked to adjust indent
16:19:24 <CakeProphet> actually what I'd do is expand a special {} syntax... and then plug that in as input to an interactive version of Python
16:19:32 <alise> def fact(n): { if n == 0: { return 1 } else: { return n * fact(n-1) } }
16:19:38 <alise> i called it braces or something
16:19:50 <alise> CakeProphet: i just ran it through the evaluator
16:20:02 <alise> since it can handle multiline stuff
16:20:06 <alise> it also handled expressions though
16:20:08 <alise> and printed their output
16:20:10 <alise> was a very clever evaluator
16:20:15 <alise> CakeProphet: i know factorial off by heart...
16:20:38 <cheater99> i am having a sandwich with quadruple, that's right, QUAD bacon.
16:21:00 <alise> CakeProphet: shift [ ]
16:21:33 <CakeProphet> fast for regular characters, but shifting takes a long time.
16:22:59 <CakeProphet> alise: hmmm, yeah to choose whether or not to print-eval or exec... you could check for python keywords.
16:23:18 <alise> CakeProphet: i ran it as an expression first, and if it gave a syntax error as a statement iirc
16:23:24 <alise> but i checked the syntax error twice
16:23:29 <alise> i don't recall exactly how
16:23:32 <alise> but it was v. clever code
16:23:37 <alise> did what you wanted all the time
16:23:45 <alise> if there was one thing I'd change I'd make { add a : before it
16:23:57 <alise> def fact(n) { if n == 0 { return 1 } else { return n * fact(n-1) } } would be nicer
16:24:04 <alise> argh, now I'm obligated to write it again
16:24:11 <alise> CakeProphet: it even handled {} in strings and stuff
16:24:16 <alise> the useless enterprise solution!
16:24:57 <alise> i know what you meant
16:28:09 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(out)O!"Hello, World!"(output)o.?]}
16:28:16 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(out)O!"Hello, World!"(out)o.?]}
16:30:16 <CakeProphet> stack-based languages are one of my favorite language designs
16:31:54 <CakeProphet> if you wanted to get fancy with the interpreter you could have like a hook-interface so that interpreters could keep track of state and give you a list of its global namespace... if it has such a thing.
16:34:04 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(out)O!(math)A!22(math)a.?(out)o.?]}
16:34:12 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(out)O!(math)A!22(math)a.?(out)(on).?]}
16:34:22 <Sgeo> http://www.1010wins.com/Desperately-Seeking-Sailor/7355267
16:34:26 <Sgeo> Why is this news?
16:34:42 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(out)O!(math)A!<2><2>(math)a.?(out)(on).?]}
16:34:48 <alise> everything is news
16:35:04 <alise> i was worried there for a minute
16:35:39 * Sgeo unstickies his v key
16:35:49 <CakeProphet> I think a made a piglatin program in Glass once
16:36:06 <Sgeo> the quick brown fox jumps over the brown dog.
16:36:25 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"{M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?""14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}"14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}
16:36:26 <EgoBot> {M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"{M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?""14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}"14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}
16:36:32 <Sgeo> Should have said "jumped" to see alise's reaction
16:36:56 <CakeProphet> oerjan: hmmm... let me see if I can decipher
16:38:30 * oerjan has forgotten how he did it, anyhow
16:39:03 <oerjan> but presumably i put the necessary strings on the stack, + the output function
16:39:50 <oerjan> 4? means output the string on top of stack
16:39:55 <CakeProphet> the first Quine I figured out was in Python... but Python makes it too easy.
16:40:12 <CakeProphet> well... that's not what it means by itsel I don't think.
16:40:14 <oerjan> well glass wasn't too hard either
16:40:31 <oerjan> no, but given that the output function is in the right place
16:41:09 <CakeProphet> I always forget that numbers are enclosed with <> and a number by itself is a stack position
16:41:17 <oerjan> the stack is <output function> <" character> <first substring> <second substring>
16:41:24 <cheater99> alise, those listings in that pdf are absolutely unintelligible for me.
16:41:32 <alise> cheater99: which listings
16:43:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:43:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Briefly sum up what you have been talking about without using the letter 'r'.
16:44:26 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
16:44:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoove: the last thing was my glass quine
16:44:40 <CakeProphet> let me see if I can remember how to do the Python quine without google.
16:44:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:44:46 <alise> cheater99: unintelligible how?
16:44:50 <alise> you don't understand them?
16:45:25 <alise> I have been talking about things; mostly of an unusual nature; esolangs indeed.
16:46:33 <CakeProphet> >>> print (lambda s: s%s)('print (lambda s: s%%s)(%r))')
16:46:34 <CakeProphet> print (lambda s: s%s)('print (lambda s: s%%s)(%r))'))
16:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it returns a sexp, rather than printing a string
16:47:19 <alise> ((lambda (x) (list x `(quote ,x))) '(lambda (x) (list x `(quote ,x))))
16:47:23 <alise> or, more traditionally
16:47:26 <CakeProphet> print (lambda s: s%s)('print (lambda s: s%%s)(%r)")
16:47:47 <alise> ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))))
16:47:56 <CakeProphet> python's % operator makes it way too easy to do with a continuation
16:48:04 <oerjan> !haskell main=putStrLn$s++show s where s="main=putStrLn$s++show s where s="
16:48:05 <alise> ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) (lambda (x) `(,x ',x)))
16:48:12 <EgoBot> main=putStrLn$s++show s where s="main=putStrLn$s++show s where s="
16:48:31 * alise wonders what's the easiest way in python to find the last element of an array that isn't a space...
16:49:08 <alise> that's strings, CakeProphet
16:49:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i wrote it for scheme but - how does it fail?
16:49:32 <cheater99> alise, not only that, but it's just difficult to make sense out of it.
16:49:32 <alise> cheater99: it's just C code, albeit 70s era
16:49:34 <oerjan> CakeProphet: haskell's show is pretty similar to %r
16:49:34 <CakeProphet> string processing in Python is wonderfully simple.
16:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: It gives the thing it prints for compiled lambdas.
16:49:41 <alise> cheater99: knuth didn't write the code btw
16:49:52 <alise> cheater99: it's not, actually
16:49:55 <alise> because the adventure game is very linear
16:49:59 <alise> and basically a big linear data structure
16:50:04 <alise> but there is no "nesting"
16:50:15 <alise> it's not like usual c code, but it's not the wrong way to write it
16:50:17 <cheater99> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=589
16:50:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well i dunno
16:50:24 <cheater99> here's a nonlinear data structure for you
16:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ((lambda (x) (list x `(quote ,x))) '(lambda (x) (list x `(quote ,x))))
16:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ((LAMBDA (X) (LIST X `',X)) '(LAMBDA (X) (LIST X `',X)))
16:50:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (#<FUNCTION (LAMBDA #) {B3E70C5}> '#<FUNCTION (LAMBDA #) {B3E70C5}>)
16:51:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because you can't do
16:51:19 <alise> ((lambda ...) x) in L... wait, yes you can
16:51:21 <alise> that's an exception, i forgot
16:51:42 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
16:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Actually, I think you missed a quote somewhere.
16:52:12 <alise> ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)))
16:52:17 <CakeProphet> alise: array.reverse(); array.remove(" "); array[0]
16:52:33 <CakeProphet> and it's destructive too, which is terrible.
16:52:33 <alise> spaces aren't just " "s :P
16:52:33 <EgoBot> /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///
16:52:39 <alise> even ''.join(lst).strip()[-1] is better
16:52:48 <alise> how is that the output of test
16:52:53 <CakeProphet> alise: well... I assumed you meant a list of arbitrary data
16:53:09 <CakeProphet> and not strings, which is what you need for join
16:53:09 <oerjan> alise: it isn't, EgoBot has a bug where sometimes it gives the output on the following command instead
16:53:26 <oerjan> (that's not the whole quine btw, it's too long for irc)
16:54:01 <CakeProphet> arise: so if the element is any amount of space it should be ignored?
16:55:02 <alise> i need to skip spaces :3
16:55:33 <CakeProphet> alise: oh are you working on it right now?
16:55:48 <oerjan> CakeProphet: slashes (///) is uorygl's language, you may not have been around when i showed it TC </brag>
16:56:03 <CakeProphet> oerjan: it looks vaguely familiar. How does it work semantically?
16:56:34 <alise> >>> print debrace('if x { y } else { z }')
16:56:43 <CakeProphet> alise: if you give me a concise summary of the problem you're trying to solve for my sleep deprived brain... I could help you figure out the best way to do it. Python is my strongest language by far.
16:57:02 <alise> >>> print debrace('def fact(n): { if n==0 { return 1 } else { return n * fact(n-1) } }')
16:57:03 <alise> return n * fact(n-1)
16:57:08 <alise> if ''.join(self.result).rstrip()[-1] != ':':
16:57:08 <alise> self.result.append(':')
16:57:15 <alise> to make sure that it doesn't add a : if you already did
16:57:27 <oerjan> CakeProphet: /// commands substitute, with \ escaping characters. everything else is printed, also with \ escaping
16:57:34 <cheater99> are there quines that don't print themselves, but what they print, if run, prints the original quine?
16:57:57 <CakeProphet> alise: that works. To be more accurate you might want to use uh.....
16:58:15 <alise> >>> print debrace(open('example.bs').read())
16:58:19 <alise> return n * fact(n-1)
16:58:27 <alise> source of example.bs:
16:58:37 <alise> return n * fact(n-1)
16:58:45 <alise> CakeProphet: ah, like formfeeds and stuff?
16:58:47 <alise> i don't think i'll bother supporting that
16:58:57 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah, tabs, and some other shit I don't... whatever /x0 is
16:59:15 <CakeProphet> alise: actually that's a bad idea because it includes \n
16:59:17 <alise> >>> '\t'.isspace()
16:59:22 <alise> so does .isspace()
16:59:25 <alise> but that doesn't matter :P
16:59:38 <oerjan> cheater99: iirc the steps don't even need to be all in the same language
17:01:07 <alise> SgeoN1: BraceS, my code that transforms Python-but-with-braces into Python
17:01:16 <CakeProphet> alise: and yeah, isspace() is lambda self: return (self in string.whitespace)
17:01:17 <alise> My god, it almost supports GNU style
17:01:26 <alise> return n * fact(n-1)
17:01:35 <alise> I just have to make : add to the previous line instead of the current one
17:01:47 <CakeProphet> alise: does it add the colon if the brace is trailing like that?
17:01:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:02:16 <alise> SgeoN1: worst indentation style in the world
17:02:25 <alise> return n * fact(n-1)
17:02:26 <CakeProphet> alise: that might significantly complicate your algorithm since you likely use a vanilla for loop.
17:03:07 <SgeoN1> Each brace on its own line?
17:03:29 <CakeProphet> def keepLast(string): oldLine = ""; for line in string: yield oldLine, line; oldLine = line;
17:04:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:04:01 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:04:14 <CakeProphet> and that'll give you the last line in your loop.
17:04:16 <oerjan> cheater99: actually it seems to be iterat*ing* quine
17:04:33 <alise> CakeProphet: i don't use a vanilla for loop
17:04:43 <CakeProphet> alise: oh... well nevermind. Generators are cool. :P
17:05:01 <alise> CakeProphet: Not a generator.
17:05:03 <CakeProphet> the coroutine style generator in Python is probably my favorite thing ever.
17:05:04 <alise> It should be though
17:05:12 <alise> Sgeo: and every brace 2-indented
17:05:15 <alise> with the body 2-indented
17:05:50 <CakeProphet> I made a pretty sweet menu interface once for a online text-based game using coroutines
17:05:53 <oerjan> cheater99: http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_iter.txt has some with more than one language as well
17:06:03 <CakeProphet> you would use yield to prompt the user and then the yield would evaluate to their next input.
17:06:26 <CakeProphet> and you'd throw StopIteration when your menu exits... and it would pop off the menu stak
17:08:14 <CakeProphet> alise: once you finish that. We should get a regular interpreter hosted and then use that to run your program as an interpreter.
17:10:58 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't know if I still have it in a working state, but I had a Python program that essentially printed 2+2, but the source code was obfuscated to span several screens while still just being a single logical line of code. :D
17:11:20 <CakeProphet> though I think I fucked it up somehow and it doesn't run correctly anymore.
17:12:49 <oerjan> ambition, distraction, uglification and derision
17:12:53 <CakeProphet> I used a lot of fancy Python internal stuff instead of their normal names
17:13:31 <CakeProphet> and then I convert strings into arrays of ints... and then take those ints and split them up with arithmetic
17:14:03 <alise> CakeProphet: Silly idea: I could have this thing support new syntactical structures
17:14:06 <alise> like if you define foo as a structure
17:14:07 <CakeProphet> I found it, and it works, but now it assigns x = "Hello, World!"
17:14:15 <alise> calls a function at compile time, foo
17:14:18 <alise> with bar and baz as strings
17:14:23 <CakeProphet> Python is way too conservative with its syntax, in my opinion
17:14:25 <alise> so you could do, e.g.
17:14:31 <alise> @define foo foo_handler
17:14:38 <alise> @define unless unless_handler
17:14:52 <alise> def unless_handler(cond, body): return build_if('!('+cond+')', body)
17:14:53 <oerjan> python believes in language family values
17:15:40 <CakeProphet> alise: could you have it accessible via the interpreter environment so that we could define new structures on Egobot?
17:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> *Everything* is too conservative in its syntax. Unless it lets you rewrite the entire syntax.
17:16:31 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there _is_ such a thing as balancing conflicting requirements, you know
17:16:53 <alise> ooh, we could even have little function macros
17:17:08 <alise> @macro incr(x) x = x + 1
17:17:47 <alise> >>> print debrace('abc {}')
17:18:39 <CakeProphet> alise: you can give eval and exec a local and global scope to operate in... I'd make a custom dictionary object that kept a "stable" version of each scope. On writes to the dictionary it would update the "unstable" scope... so later you could clear the unstable state only and still have the rest of your program intact
17:19:00 <CakeProphet> alise: since your namespace will get overpopulated overtime.
17:19:06 <CakeProphet> and you might want to run a cleanup occasionally.
17:20:20 <CakeProphet> the custom dictionary object would be if you wanted IRC programs to be able to access your interpreter internals... such as the macro thing.
17:20:58 <CakeProphet> ...assuming EgoBot can even let you keep track of state over consecutive commands.
17:21:47 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
17:22:12 <CakeProphet> and a bit more complicated to implement I think.
17:22:50 <CakeProphet> you'd basically just keep a pickled dictionary
17:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose you could do something mad like have a background process.
17:23:58 <CakeProphet> I think pickling would be easier to code, if less efficient.
17:24:09 <CakeProphet> but it's Python... Python doesn't give a fuck about efficiency
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17:25:31 <CakeProphet> I'm assuming EgoBot is running in a sandbox right? It would be mad to not chroot it or something equivalent.
17:26:43 <CakeProphet> though it would be nice if you could somehow get a safe-to-play in version of root.
17:27:27 <CakeProphet> ....wait, how does "ls" work? sh can still access /usr/bin I guess?
17:27:38 <alise> wow, so here is a fun challenge in python: Write a function that, given an array of strings, will give (i,j,c) such that IF ARY IS EMPTY: it appends '' to ary returns (0,0,''); IF ARY HAS NO NON-SPACES: it returns (-1, -1, ''); OTHERWISE, it returns (i,j,c) such that ary[i][j] == c, not c.isspace() and there are no non-spaces after c in the array.
17:27:47 <alise> Also, some efficiency is nice.
17:27:50 <alise> Fun fact: This is a bitch.
17:27:54 <alise> CakeProphet: it's not just chroot
17:27:57 <alise> chroot is not nearly secure enough
17:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet: It sends it through DCC if there's much input.
17:28:36 <alise> CakeProphet: just write it! :P
17:28:52 <CakeProphet> alise: I'll contribute some code, happily. :)
17:29:04 <alise> (pronounced hooray)
17:29:25 <CakeProphet> I always know something is wrong with my design in Python if I have to resort to lots of tuples in my string parsing.
17:29:33 <CakeProphet> but this might be the best way to do it in this case... dunno.
17:29:42 <EgoBot> bin dev etc home lib lib64 proc tmp usr
17:30:05 <alise> CakeProphet: no, you should just need to iterate through indices in reverse, i think
17:30:40 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't know what these tuples are supposed to represent exactly.
17:31:01 <alise> CakeProphet: last non-space char, with some helpful stuff for my parser
17:31:29 <oerjan> CakeProphet: EgoBot doesn't allow you to preserve files across commands. HackEgo does (but is currently broken).
17:31:47 <CakeProphet> ah... so I guess a background process would be the way to go.
17:32:30 <CakeProphet> alise: basically this function is to see if the last char is a space right?
17:32:39 <alise> ok here's what it's for
17:32:52 <alise> we use it to find the last non-space character. if it's not a colon, then we insert a colon /right after it/
17:32:54 <alise> this is why we need the position
17:32:55 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.8691: line 1: fred: Permission denied
17:32:57 <alise> to insert a colon right after it
17:32:59 <alise> so that foo\n{ works
17:33:02 <alise> you can't just insert a :
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17:33:05 <alise> because it becomes foo\n:
17:33:08 <alise> but if you know where o is
17:33:11 <alise> then you can add : after
17:33:15 <alise> CakeProphet: get it?
17:33:50 <CakeProphet> indeed. It's a backtrack function to add a colon to a previous line, right?
17:33:56 <alise> the appending '' is just so that our assignment works even if it's []
17:34:00 <alise> although that's never valid who cares
17:34:05 <alise> CakeProphet: pretty much, except this one doesn't mutate
17:34:08 <alise> just gives the relevant coords
17:34:10 <alise> you could change that
17:34:12 <alise> actually probably a good idea
17:34:22 <alise> I'ma try rewriting it as mutation, you can have a go too, yours will probably be better
17:34:27 <CakeProphet> I generally take advantage of mutability in Python.
17:34:39 <alise> yeah, use your lang's "strengths" and all
17:34:45 <alise> not that python has many... thanks for that guido :P
17:34:49 <alise> CakeProphet: it's in a class so
17:35:21 <alise> i really need to get around to writing Endeavour/botte/rice sometime
17:35:27 <alise> (the three tentative names for my uber-bot)
17:35:38 <alise> it would include this :-)
17:35:53 <alise> endeavour would have a complete irc framework thingy, plus really extensible plugins that can access a generic datastore
17:35:56 <CakeProphet> sweet. You should let it keep an active process for each interpreter.
17:35:58 <alise> tons and tons of sandboxed interpreters
17:36:04 <alise> like egobot, hackego and lambdabot in one
17:36:08 <CakeProphet> lots of development time too, I assume. ;)
17:36:14 <alise> also terminatable "commands"
17:36:17 <alise> like the !ps of old egobot
17:36:22 <alise> is it still there?
17:36:27 <alise> CakeProphet: yeah it's vaporware
17:36:33 <alise> still don't like any language yet :D
17:36:49 <CakeProphet> if you had a repos of some kind I wouldn't mind working on it in my free time. I miss doing stuff on #esoteric
17:37:04 <CakeProphet> I assume it's a semi-distant-future thing though
17:37:23 <alise> Probably I should get my life sorted out first.
17:37:29 <alise> Semi-distant, yes, but I'd like to have it /some/ day at least
17:37:41 <alise> Oh, and a lot of the interpreters would have user-specific data storage places
17:37:45 <alise> that other people can access but not mutate
17:37:54 <alise> and the whole thing would also serve as a logbot and a quotebot...
17:38:02 <alise> with presumably some sort of web server attached to it to serve those
17:38:11 * Sgeo would buy the OLPC tablet
17:38:17 <alise> basically were it written the website + it on irc would be all you ever need to do anything even vaguely related to esoterica :P
17:38:25 <CakeProphet> alise: I would download copies of source from URL instead of constantly web-accessing them.
17:38:37 <alise> CakeProphet: yes, ofc
17:38:45 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't know if you keeps notes or anything. Whenever I work on something big I keep tons of notes.
17:39:16 <alise> It's always all in my head.
17:39:24 <alise> I can't seem to articulate a complete vision of anything.
17:39:31 <alise> hmm... it'd be nice if I could add variable declarations to Python
17:39:33 <CakeProphet> as far as language I'd do Python simply because it's a task that doesn't require too much efficiency.. and Python is fast to develop in if you're good at catching bugs before they happen.
17:39:34 <alise> the "global" mess is so stupid
17:39:57 <alise> you have to do "var x = y" before using it
17:40:04 <alise> without it, closures don't work (which is why python is shit)
17:40:19 <alise> something like that.
17:41:18 <alise> def hahahaha(): { x = 0; def inner(): { x = x + 1; return x }; return inner }
17:41:24 <alise> because x is a local variable in inner
17:41:28 <alise> so we just get an "undefined variable x" error
17:41:30 <uorygl> Hey, it's CakeProphet!
17:41:32 <alise> THIS works however:
17:41:38 <CakeProphet> alise: oh yeah. They added that in Python 3 actually
17:41:44 <alise> def ihateyou(): { x = [0]; def inner(): { x[0] = x[0] + 1; return x }; return inner }
17:41:55 <alise> CakeProphet: yeah but "nonlocal" is so silly, just make people use "var" or "def" first thing :P
17:41:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nope.
17:42:31 <CakeProphet> alise: though I guess it could interfere with some dynamicism... but not really. If you just made it a compile-time thing and then scratched it at runtime... all the runtime binding features would still work fine.
17:42:51 * Sgeo winces and opens IE
17:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Blargh, I've forgotten how to swap () and [] in Slime.
17:44:47 <CakeProphet> it has similar quickness-of-programming to Python, but has type safety
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17:45:03 <CakeProphet> the syntax is a little weird though... and it's still in rough stages of development.
17:45:04 <alise> By Ken Thompson and Russ Cox, my heroes.
17:45:09 <alise> I don't mind the syntax.
17:45:25 <alise> It's... just python with braces
17:45:52 <alise> Eh, name type is older than type name.
17:45:58 <CakeProphet> semantically it's fairly different from Python too. More like a mix of the good parts of Java and Erlang
17:45:59 <alise> Besides, you know, Ken Thompson?
17:46:10 <alise> Sure, he didn't make C.
17:46:20 <alise> But he worked right next to the guy who made C on the same operating system that it was designed for.
17:46:28 <alise> So, it's basically them reversing their own decision.
17:46:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes.
17:46:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But in the 70s C was nice.
17:46:37 <alise> Memory management didn't matter then.
17:46:51 <alise> CakeProphet: Also, hey, Thompson and Pike invented UTF-8 in one day.
17:46:53 <CakeProphet> C++ is a clusterfuck, however. Syntactically.
17:47:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No... on UNIX, you just did
17:47:10 <uorygl> UTF-8 seems like an easy thing to invent in one day.
17:47:16 <CakeProphet> but I should state my ignorance of C++ in general. I know C far better.
17:47:18 <alise> "But what if someone types more than 80 characters?" "The system would crash. But why would you do that?"
17:47:32 <alise> uorygl: not when you consider the previous encoding clusterfucks
17:47:36 <alise> simplicity isn't easy
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17:47:54 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah. c is nice when you get your design correct... but you also have to rely on everyone else getting their design correct.
17:48:03 <alise> And nobody being malicious...
17:48:03 <uorygl> "Hey, how should we represent a variable-length character?" "I dunno, maybe we should use the first byte to encode the length and some data, and further bytes to encode the rest of the data."
17:48:10 <alise> CakeProphet: hmm, darn, my solution to insert_colon mutated a list i was iterating over
17:48:16 <alise> pretty sure that's verboten even if you stop right after, yeah?
17:48:28 <alise> uorygl: it wasn't seen as variable length then though
17:48:33 <alise> it was seen as a 16-bit character set
17:48:55 <CakeProphet> alise, oh, did you ever get satisfied with your Python code so that I can look at it?
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17:49:32 <uorygl> CakeProphet: I was probably called something else when you left. Like Warrigal or kerlo or ihope or something.
17:49:51 <CakeProphet> it's pretty nifty though. Suffers from poor support. But the language design is neat.
17:49:54 <alise> CakeProphet: almost there
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17:50:23 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:50:36 <uorygl> CakeProphet: I don't remember what that one thing was, but you probably do, so tell me about it.
17:51:01 <alise> >>> debrace('if\n{abc}')
17:51:13 -!- hiato has joined.
17:51:13 <uorygl> CakeProphet: darn, you don't remember after all.
17:51:28 <CakeProphet> alise: it might be better to check for keywords on lines and end with a colon if it doesn't
17:51:31 <uorygl> CakeProphet: oh, maybe I was planning to create an operating system and you were planning to help, or something.
17:51:41 <CakeProphet> alise: ...it's easier than you would think
17:51:42 <alise> CakeProphet: custom structures remember :D
17:52:09 <CakeProphet> alise: Just keep a list of them. Simple enough.
17:52:18 <CakeProphet> alise: check the keyword list and the custom structures list
17:52:33 <alise> CakeProphet: no this is much cooler :|
17:52:38 <CakeProphet> alise: also check out import keyword; keyword.kwlist
17:52:59 <CakeProphet> though it doesn't give you the indent-only keywords
17:53:05 <CakeProphet> stuff like and, as, break, class, etc are in there
17:53:39 <CakeProphet> though, since you're not checking /every/ keyword... you wouldn't use that.
17:53:47 <alise> >>> debrace('if\n{abc}')
17:53:48 <alise> ;; problem here is, the newline done by the \n is when it was thinking it was totally 0 indenting
17:53:58 <alise> I can just right-strip the text
17:54:08 <alise> though that'd be inefficient...
17:54:18 <alise> not on a list of strings
17:54:27 <CakeProphet> alise: not as much as you'd think. strip() is written in C. In Python world that's fast.
17:54:42 <alise> aha, .isspace() works on multiple strings
17:54:57 <CakeProphet> alise: pretty much all the string functions are C. multiple for loops in Python are still lightspeed in Python.
17:55:40 <CakeProphet> Python in general runs about 100x slower than C
17:56:16 <CakeProphet> so when you can, avoid custom loops over C-based built-ins
17:56:25 <CakeProphet> because multiple calls to those will be much faster than your hard-coded loops
17:57:07 <CakeProphet> thinking about efficiency in Python is completely different from thinking about efficiency in languages like C.
17:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're worried about efficiency just write it in something else.
17:57:52 <CakeProphet> oh... and avoid string concatenation. If you're doing a lot of inserts and appends stick to lists. mutable = no re-allocation
17:58:12 <alise> concatenation = what i need to do to strip
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17:58:57 <CakeProphet> Python "lists" are C arrays that automatically resize in a semi-heuristic "smart" way.
17:58:58 <alise> i'm so happy i could fuck a goat
17:59:18 <alise> all i need to do is stop it mutating >_>
17:59:22 <alise> while it's iterating over a list
17:59:26 <alise> because dat ist verboten
17:59:53 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: though there's an array module that lets you use C, typed, fixed sized arrays. It's for extreme cases where you want C array efficiency but don't want to write it in C
18:00:30 <CakeProphet> alise: would making a copy of the list break the semantics? If you make a copy you're mutating a different list.
18:00:55 <alise> CakeProphet: I've got it working perfectly
18:01:01 <alise> mutating yet safe, and quite elegant code too!
18:01:17 <alise> lodgeit is the best paster site for python right?
18:01:35 <CakeProphet> there was a good one, but I think it's down now.
18:01:37 <alise> I'll use the vjn.fi pastebin, for old times
18:01:43 <alise> I could use sprunge, but eh
18:01:57 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3542786123.txt
18:02:05 <alise> The code isn't ugly, but it's a bit long for my tastes.
18:02:09 <CakeProphet> A quick scan of the #python title suggests http://paste.pocoo.org/
18:02:13 <alise> I think using generators and other whizz-bang features could make it nicer, but this is acceptable.
18:02:16 <alise> pocoo is the lodgeit one iirc
18:02:24 <alise> CakeProphet: what was the perfect one called?
18:02:34 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3542786123.txt
18:02:34 <CakeProphet> alise: ...I can't even remember now. It's been so long.
18:02:36 <alise> i pasted it already :P
18:02:49 <alise> wait, I want to make one change
18:03:07 <CakeProphet> alise: haha. Okay. (That happens to me too. I hate it)
18:03:14 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9416389493.txt
18:03:19 <alise> yeah there's all those tiny little things that you just suddenly notice
18:03:23 <alise> after exiting the main-problem-zone
18:03:51 <alise> CakeProphet: Example input: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p4361828264.txt
18:04:18 <alise> Things I'd like: Some way to fool the Python interpreter, when it evaluates it, into matching up source lines with their results, so that e.g. braced oneliners work properly. (This is impossible.)
18:04:21 <CakeProphet> alise: do you have any kind of command-line support.. or is it just called in a larger package?
18:04:26 <alise> And, uh, what's the other thing...
18:04:32 <alise> CakeProphet: this is all i've written so far
18:04:37 <alise> debracer(some_string) works fine on the console to test it
18:05:00 <CakeProphet> alise: I'm not sure what you mean by matching up source lines.
18:05:31 <alise> LOL YOU FUCKED UP AT LINE 72
18:05:34 <alise> when your file is a one-liner using braces
18:05:38 <alise> it'd say LOL YOU FUCKED UP AT LINE 1
18:05:43 <alise> YOU FUCKING FAILURE, YOU MESSED UP A ONELINER
18:05:47 <alise> 'specially the insults would be good.
18:05:52 <CakeProphet> alise: If you want to make it a command-line tool just define a main function and then at the bottom of the source file do if __name__ == "__main__": main()
18:06:16 <alise> CakeProphet: I want to add more to it before making it a tool
18:06:20 <alise> CakeProphet: because
18:06:24 <alise> if abc { def { sadposdf } }
18:06:37 <alise> so imagine a huge oneliner in that
18:06:40 <alise> the translated python would be run
18:06:42 <alise> python spots an error
18:06:46 <alise> complains about the line in the translated code
18:06:49 <CakeProphet> but yeah the __name__ == "__main__" is one of those weird Python idioms that they seem to have ignored in their quest to make clean code.
18:06:57 <alise> so this basically makes line/column error messages useless if you actually utilise the braces stuff
18:07:17 <CakeProphet> alise: aaaaah, I see. You want it to automatically put a one-line block on the same line as the statement.
18:07:31 <alise> CakeProphet: you know C's #line?
18:07:32 <CakeProphet> you just want it to correspond to your source file. Gotcha now.
18:08:06 <alise> I don't think Python has a #line
18:08:10 <alise> it may have some wacky assignment to do it though
18:08:16 <alise> and then what about column
18:08:17 <alise> it'd have to be offset
18:08:19 <CakeProphet> but you could give your tool an error output that would be useful.
18:08:29 <alise> if it does do all this then this is veering away from joke preprocessor into compile territory
18:08:35 <alise> CakeProphet: it's python that'd make the error
18:08:38 <alise> i guess i could maintain a reverse map
18:08:43 <alise> line in python -> line and col in braces
18:09:05 <CakeProphet> I think I remember seeing something similar to the problem you're describing
18:09:45 <alise> i could offset indents and shit
18:09:48 <alise> so that i could look up a line
18:09:52 <alise> and see where it starts, line col in the braces source
18:09:55 <alise> but that would be a fucking pain.
18:09:57 <CakeProphet> essentially you'd a way to pass around the line number data... and then in the code where you evaluate, catch the exception, alter the traceback, and print
18:10:05 <CakeProphet> I think there's actually an easy way to do that.
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18:11:11 <alise> if n == 0 { return 0 }
18:11:11 <alise> elif n == 1 { return 1 }
18:11:11 <alise> else { return fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) }
18:11:27 <alise> CakeProphet: in my happy future land it'd be nice if you could omit the returns, too
18:11:27 <CakeProphet> alise: at the moment we'll call it impossible... but if I stumble upon a possible solution I'll let you know.
18:11:36 <alise> and then let the if go AFTER the statement. Oh wait, I've just invented Perl
18:11:46 <alise> CakeProphet: functional programming duderiffy
18:11:53 <CakeProphet> basically you want to modify python to be awesome.
18:12:07 <alise> hey i could support closures with this
18:12:15 <alise> consider a function map(list)(closure)
18:12:37 <alise> for x from map(lst) { x + 2 }
18:12:40 <CakeProphet> you'd probably want PyPy for anything advanced. It's Python written in Python and somehow partially JITed... I have no idea how it works
18:12:47 <CakeProphet> but it makes it easier to tweak Python in Python.
18:12:49 <alise> def __mapper(x): { return x+2 }; map(lst, __mapper)
18:12:57 <alise> CakeProphet: it's gorgeous, pypy
18:13:17 <alise> they write their python interp in a restricted dialect of python, rpython; and they also have a JIT from rpython, that compiles rpython to efficient machine code as it goes
18:13:28 <alise> and that JIT is written in python iirc
18:13:35 -!- hiato_ has joined.
18:13:38 <alise> so they run the jit -- in python -- on their in-RPython python interpreter
18:13:38 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:13:43 <alise> which then results in an efficient machine-code Python interpreter
18:14:32 <alise> CakeProphet: actually if this gets too far I'll have invented my own, superior language
18:14:55 * alise translates braces.py to braces.bs
18:15:13 <alise> BraceS, but the bullshit expansion is intentional
18:15:30 <alise> Whoa, my string support is broken.
18:16:10 <Sgeo> alise, the Reddit alient
18:16:16 <alise> Sgeo: it has a name?
18:16:17 <alise> CakeProphet: lol, this isn't even backwards-compatible,
18:16:23 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/c9k3y/til_the_reddit_alien_is_called_snoo/
18:16:24 <alise> CakeProphet: it strips your indentation
18:16:25 -!- benuphoenix has joined.
18:16:29 <Sgeo> Hi benuphoenix
18:16:31 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why there isn't a decent way to take some Common Lisp and compile it into an executable
18:16:53 <CakeProphet> do you use string.whitespace to strip whitespace?
18:17:30 -!- benuphoenix has left (?).
18:17:35 <alise> oh, I should make {} result in pass
18:19:26 <alise> CakeProphet: I ported braces.py to braces.bs!
18:19:40 * alise moves braces.py to braces_orig.py, then generates braces.py using braces_orig.py on braces.bs
18:20:19 <CakeProphet> woah.... that while self.process_char(): pass is a completely weird way to loop over that.
18:20:37 <alise> go = self.process_char()
18:20:39 <alise> but realised that was stupid
18:20:50 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1266287623.txt braces.bs v1
18:21:09 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9595539115.txt generated object code ;)
18:21:12 <alise> (also known as python)
18:21:15 <CakeProphet> for c in self.source: self.process_char(c)
18:21:24 <alise> nah, because self.source is mutated a lot
18:21:26 <alise> so that would do weird shit
18:21:28 <alise> and be undefined behaviour
18:21:52 <alise> behold, the world's first ugly pythonesque compiling-to-python self-hosting language
18:22:13 <CakeProphet> I'm sure somehow else has given Python braces.
18:23:00 <alise> as a source encoding filter...
18:23:05 <alise> this is cooler though
18:25:36 <CakeProphet> alise: I'd turn the spaces-per-indent up a bit. Have it a constructor option. def __init__(self, source, spaces_per_indent=4)
18:25:47 <CakeProphet> and then (' ' * self.indent * self.spaces_per_indent)
18:25:48 <alise> CakeProphet: But why would you want to look at the generated object code...?
18:26:07 <alise> Sgeo: "To be fair, that's like saying the reddit alien is from the future -- it was something that was tossed around in the summer 2005, and then it was pretty much forgotten. Even around the office, I've never heard anyone call it Snoo; it's always just "the alien"."
18:26:22 <alise> CakeProphet: At least this way it LOOKS definitively evil.
18:26:34 <CakeProphet> alise: I mean the whole point is to have internet-friendly python... so once you have hosted somewhere there's no reason not to have it human-friendly
18:26:50 <alise> oh, this is actually just for abomination purposes
18:27:15 <CakeProphet> alise: psh, you're not allowed to diss Python when you're doing stuff with it, for it.
18:27:34 <alise> What if I'm raping it to make it look like a clown?
18:27:39 <alise> Because that's basically the case here.
18:27:59 <CakeProphet> ...I don't know, the braces look nice really. Possibly even more structured.
18:28:21 <CakeProphet> when your blocks get long-winded it can be easy to loose track of how many dedents there are at the end.
18:28:34 <CakeProphet> but not having to type braces is definitely worth it... :)
18:28:45 <CakeProphet> but really... they should have both. There's absolutely no reason not to.
18:28:49 <alise> def main(argc, argv)
18:28:51 <alise> printf("Hello, world!\n");
18:29:08 <alise> [spoiler]VALID[/spoiler] [sup][b][i]BRACES[/i]c[/b]o[/sup][sub][spoiler]de[/spoiler]
18:29:16 <alise> def main(argc, argv):
18:29:16 <alise> printf("Hello, world!\n")
18:29:18 <alise> is what it becomes
18:29:23 <alise> print(s) in python 2.0 is print (s)
18:29:33 <alise> CakeProphet: I just defined printf to be print :P
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18:29:51 <alise> That doesn't work in C
18:29:58 <alise> and print is a statement
18:30:08 <CakeProphet> alise: depends on which version you're using
18:30:16 <alise> ooh I need bracketed comments
18:30:20 <alise> (# ... #) do you think?
18:30:26 <alise> you're capturing it in your parenzz
18:30:59 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah print-as-a-function is 3... possibly 2.6 or 7 or something
18:31:24 <alise> """ is LAEM though
18:31:26 <alise> because you can't do
18:31:34 <alise> if foo { print """abc""" x }
18:31:41 <alise> these (# ... #) comments would simply be elided in the result
18:31:50 <alise> like all good comments
18:31:55 <alise> (# abc (# def #) quux #)
18:32:00 <alise> why, it's just like # comments but you capture them!
18:32:01 -!- benuphoenix has joined.
18:32:10 <CakeProphet> {# #} could possibly conflict with Python code in some odd corner case.
18:32:37 <alise> this is the Algorithmic Programming Language Braces, not FIOC :|
18:32:41 <alise> benuphoenix: whoa it's you.
18:32:48 <Sgeo> benuphoenix, your IRC client's working again?
18:33:00 <CakeProphet> alise: also, main won't do what you expect. Python doesn't automatically call main like that
18:33:19 <CakeProphet> well, unless you expect something different.
18:33:34 <alise> i was just writing pseudo-C
18:33:43 <alise> I'm a proficient python programmer ffs :P
18:33:58 <alise> whoa i have some mental block with using braces after typing pythony code
18:34:20 <CakeProphet> alise: I almost forgot the explicit self after doing a lot of Java and C# lately.
18:34:37 <CakeProphet> alise: I would almost grow to dislike it now that I've had the convenient of not having to type it all the time.
18:34:39 <alise> this is an abomination, it doesn't have to be idiomatic
18:34:47 <alise> I'm not even a big fan of OOP.
18:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the fact that out of habit you call it self, rather than, say, j or something similarly easy to type.
18:35:31 <alise> CakeProphet: Hey, this means I can use nested functions conveniently <3
18:36:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's very good.
18:36:24 <CakeProphet> alise: Sweet... now support multi-line lambdas... compile them to named functions that don't conflict with anything else in code, embed the name where the lambda expression was originally, and then delete the name afterwards. :P
18:36:26 -!- benuphoenix has left (?).
18:36:26 <alise> It's advanced. It predates almost all other object systems.
18:36:33 <alise> CakeProphet: and call the whole thing "perl"
18:36:41 <alise> seriously, we're just approaching idiomatic perl 5 without sigils here
18:36:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: unlucky!
18:36:53 <CakeProphet> alise: psh... we're not even close to the syntactic monster of perl yet.
18:37:02 <alise> CakeProphet: i said idiomatic perl
18:37:10 <alise> seriously, idiomatic perl is basically what we have here, plus some additional niceties
18:37:25 <alise> multi-line lambdas: yep, idiomatic perl
18:37:32 <alise> scripting language: yep
18:37:39 <alise> it also has "not", "unless" and similar
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18:37:45 <alise> it also has conditions after the statement (useful a lot of times)
18:37:49 <alise> we're inventing perl :P
18:37:53 <CakeProphet> well, I know nothing about Perl other than everytime I try to memorize the syntax in any way I completely fail. I blame but the language design, but it could also be copious marijuana ingestion in my past.
18:37:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:38:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:38:44 <CakeProphet> alise: but the semantics are entirely different.... entirely.
18:38:58 <alise> i have a kinda soft spot for perl.
18:39:07 <alise> (# ... #) comments implemented!
18:39:22 <CakeProphet> Haskell's comment style is really nice. It's my favorite that I've seen.
18:39:34 <alise> Haskell is a good language.
18:39:46 <CakeProphet> it's not without flaws, but a very good language nontheless.
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18:40:07 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/work/2010-05/braces$ mv braces.py braces_.py
18:40:07 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/work/2010-05/braces$ python -i braces_.py
18:40:08 <alise> >>> open('braces.py', 'w').write(debrace(open('braces.bs').read()))
18:40:08 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/work/2010-05/braces$ rm braces_.py
18:40:25 <alise> Aaand it doesn't work
18:40:32 <CakeProphet> in particular, some of the functions that use Int instead of Integral are annoying... especially when you have to coerce types around.
18:40:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no
18:40:40 * alise builds a command-line interface
18:40:42 <alise> CakeProphet: Yes, that is a flaw.
18:41:02 <alise> CakeProphet: Also, the Num class is an abomination; we thought about this stuff last century and it turns out there are these things called rings and fields...#
18:41:22 <CakeProphet> ...hmmm, yeah. I don't know anything about those though...
18:41:37 <alise> CakeProphet: they're pretty simple really
18:41:53 <alise> CakeProphet: you have one for +, one building on top for -, one building on top for *, then one building on top for / basically
18:41:56 <CakeProphet> it's just a structure that describes a formal system of operations over data right?
18:41:57 <alise> except you have a bunch inbetween
18:42:04 <alise> for things like non-commutative or non-associative operations
18:42:09 <alise> so we can categorise tons of non-numbers in this too
18:42:24 <alise> "A frizzle is a bob (S,*) such that x*y = y*x."
18:42:30 <alise> (where * is any operation not multiplication)
18:42:50 <alise> * is an operation taking two Ss and returning an S
18:42:55 <alise> the very bottom structure is a magma:
18:43:12 <alise> A magma (S,*) is a set S and a binary operation * on S with the following property:
18:43:18 <alise> Closure propety: a*b is in S.
18:43:31 <alise> CakeProphet: no, field is division (multiplicative inverses; i.e. ^-1)
18:43:50 <alise> Ring is +, * and -
18:43:57 <alise> Z is the prime example
18:44:01 <alise> Set S with binary operation +
18:44:01 <alise> Associativity of +
18:44:02 <alise> Existence of identity element for + in S
18:44:06 <alise> Existence of inverse elements for + in S
18:44:10 <alise> Commutativity of +
18:44:14 <alise> Associative binary operation
18:44:16 <alise> Distributivity of over +
18:44:20 <alise> Existence of identity element for in S
18:44:28 <alise> Existence of inverse elements for in S
18:44:32 <alise> CakeProphet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_(mathematics)#Definition_and_illustration
18:44:34 <alise> look at the "Algebraic structures" table there
18:44:36 <alise> CakeProphet: there are some structures inbetween for pathological things
18:44:58 <alise> a purple man who lives far away from his workplace
18:45:40 <CakeProphet> alise: I apologize. My ability to parse wikipedia articles on math is very limited... mainly because they explain everything in terms of other things I also don't understand.
18:45:50 <alise> CakeProphet: get yourself an edumacation :D
18:45:54 <alise> oh wait you're from the US
18:46:00 <alise> YOU CAN'T HAHAHAHahem.
18:46:40 <CakeProphet> well, abstract algebra isn't really taught, except in advance college classes.
18:47:55 <CakeProphet> alise: so basically instead of Num you'd have Ring for (+) and (-) along and (Ring x) => Field(x) for division and multiplication? or is multiplication elsewhere?
18:48:07 <alise> CakeProphet: well it's a bit more nuanced than that
18:48:10 <alise> multiplication is in ring actually
18:48:20 <alise> it'd be easy to use
18:48:27 <alise> it's just that it's hard to memorise exactly what some thing is :P
18:48:34 <alise> CakeProphet: to do all that we really need inheritance of classes
18:48:37 <alise> so that you could just define it as the highest one
18:48:41 <alise> and it'd inherit the definitions downwards
18:49:15 <alise> Braces 1.5: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8785482493.txt
18:49:18 <alise> Bootstrapping Python: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3558378555.txt
18:49:25 <alise> Pre-compiled version: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3558378555.txt
18:49:30 <alise> Binary for Python platforms :P
18:50:04 <alise> Example: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5491253623.txt
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18:51:39 <alise> CakeProphet: I'm turning insane halp
18:53:07 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8785482493.txt
18:53:09 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you can have Ring x => Field x, but what you cannot have is defining the Ring methods automatically from the Field methods
18:53:58 <oerjan> to make a Field (or in current Haskell, say Fractional) you have to define _all_ the superclasses separately
18:54:28 <oerjan> CakeProphet: well, it would be nice to at least have them listed in common.
18:54:37 <alise> obvs we should just add dependent typing, require totality and add a proof assistant
18:54:47 <alise> oh wait that's agda except with a proof assistant and consistency ha ha ha ha ha ha
18:54:52 <alise> it's funny because i am dissing agda
18:54:54 <alise> on the grounds that coq is superioe
18:55:05 <alise> CakeProphet: i have concluded i always have been
18:55:09 <CakeProphet> alise: also... you lost me on that last bit. But that's okay.
18:55:10 <alise> and it's woooonderful~
18:55:32 <CakeProphet> I'm wasting far too much time doing fun stuff and talking on this channel.
18:55:48 <oerjan> everyone is insane. it's just that a large group of people have convinced themselves their delusions are "normal"
18:55:55 <CakeProphet> when I've already procrastinated like a whole week of my online history class, and was/is going to catch up today.
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18:56:11 <alise> says oerjan, whilst believing in synchronicity.
18:56:41 <oerjan> alise: i never said i was normal
18:56:42 <CakeProphet> alise: so... have you considered how to implement generic macro control structures yet?
18:56:58 <alise> CakeProphet: by tossing the crock of shit out and making it properly modular
18:57:17 <CakeProphet> alise: well yes... but I'd try to re-use some code if possible... just re-organize
18:57:42 <CakeProphet> alise: but yeah... pretty much you want dynamic dispatch.
18:57:54 <alise> You know, I could just invent a new language.
18:58:48 <CakeProphet> alise: one thing you'll possibly want to improve on how information mid-parse is stored.
18:58:58 <alise> Yes; I really want to create a pseudo-syntax tree
18:59:03 <CakeProphet> I'm very bad at homebrew parsers and making them elegant.
18:59:18 <alise> of mostly string globs of python interrupted by [KEYWORD, BIT_BEFORE_BRACE, ...stuff inside braces...]
18:59:25 <alise> where stuff is either a string or another one of those
18:59:55 <CakeProphet> alise: You just need to be able to recognize a control structure that's been implemented somewhere... either with some kind of special macro syntax that you can embed mid-source-code, or as plugins to the compiler.
19:00:23 <alise> MetaPython provides a macro and code quoting facility for the Python programming language. It accomplishes this via the use of an import hook. MetaPython files are denoted with an .mpy extension and may contain quoted code blocks, macro definitions, and macro expansions.
19:00:25 <CakeProphet> and whichever is saner, or maybe less sane
19:00:41 <alise> CakeProphet: this is all reminding me of me and oklopol's python schemes
19:00:58 <alise> which were basically little half-lisp, half-schemes we wrote in python with very tight python integration
19:01:04 <CakeProphet> I saw an implemention of gotos in Python that used debugging facilities.
19:01:07 <alise> i wrote one that did its own GCing and everything
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19:01:33 <CakeProphet> alise: How about this: make all functions partially applicable.
19:01:50 <alise> CakeProphet: Would need different syntax, because of varargs.
19:01:54 <alise> How about f&(args...)?
19:02:00 <CakeProphet> this will be after you have a sane parsing scheme down... so that all these new features are easy to tack on.
19:02:13 <CakeProphet> alise: nope. it's easier then you would think.
19:02:19 <alise> I know it can be done
19:02:28 <alise> but one syntax is better than having to do a special case for variadic functions
19:02:51 <alise> def fuck(*args): ...
19:02:55 <CakeProphet> just locate all def's in source and apply a decoration
19:02:57 <alise> fuck(1,2,3) # this should partially apply
19:02:59 <alise> WHOOPS IT DOESN'T.
19:03:18 <CakeProphet> ..hmmm... oh, I think I get what you're saying
19:03:33 <alise> so something like fuck&(1,2,3) is better
19:03:51 <CakeProphet> ....I'm still not completely following. is & an explicit partial application?
19:04:23 <alise> f&(x,y,z) = lambda *args, **kwargs: f(x,y,z,*args,**kwargs)
19:04:35 <alise> in Braces, the function behind it would be
19:05:29 <alise> def partial(f, *args, **kwargs) { def do_it(*args2, **kwargs2) { return f(*(args+args2), **kwargs.update(kwargs2)) } return do_it }
19:05:46 <alise> CakeProphet: Ohmygod I could allow arbitrary infix operators :|
19:05:53 <alise> (No that would be a bitch... but... tempting)
19:07:28 <CakeProphet> def decorator(f) { def wrapper(*args, **kargs) { (#insert introspection code to make sure we actually need to partial apply... otherwise#) def partial(*newargs, **kargs) { return f(*(args+newargs), **(kargs+newkargs)) } } }
19:07:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ``The Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Braces''
19:07:42 <CakeProphet> ...rough draft of the actual code, but you get the idea.
19:08:01 <alise> .update is mutating too :(
19:08:22 <alise> CakeProphet: I think **foo copies so i guess not
19:08:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's a reference to The Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
19:08:33 <alise> Braces is my abomination that gives Python wiiiings^Wbraces.
19:08:57 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah if you're passing in a dictionary explicitly with **-used-mid-call expression thing... it most likely makes a copy. I'll test, but it's easy to fix... there's a copy() method
19:10:12 <alise> Grr, & can't even be a regular op
19:10:19 <alise> can't do (x=y) in tuples
19:10:31 <CakeProphet> alise: so yeah just use the copy() method if kargs is not empty
19:10:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't & one of the ASCII characters that is completely invalid in Python?
19:11:09 <CakeProphet> also use functools stuff because they make it easy to write wrapper objects that preserve all the docs/introspection info of the original function
19:11:32 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p4667924367.txt ;; & definition
19:11:52 <alise> @compiler is the built-in block that says "compile and evaluate this /now/ in the compiler-code environment"
19:11:57 <alise> Which lets you use it in things like macros, infix definitions, etc.
19:11:58 <CakeProphet> ...but it's so ugly. I'd rather just use Python's existing partial application stuff.
19:12:00 <alise> This is all hypothetical, of course.
19:12:04 <alise> <CakeProphet> also use functools stuff because they make it easy to write wrapper objects that preserve all the docs/introspection info of the original function
19:12:07 <alise> Ah yeah that stuff
19:12:28 <alise> functools.partial(func[, *args][, **keywords])
19:12:28 <alise> Return a new partial object which when called will behave like func called with the positional arguments args and keyword arguments keywords. If more arguments are supplied to the call, they are appended to args. If additional keyword arguments are supplied, they extend and override keywords. Roughly equivalent to:
19:12:31 <alise> Oh, it already exists!
19:12:55 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2957715959.txt
19:12:59 <alise> If it handled kwargs, it'd be perfect.
19:13:13 <alise> I swear there's a Python-based thing that has extensible syntax.
19:13:18 <alise> CakeProphet: (1,2,x=y)
19:13:20 <alise> can't do that in a tuple
19:13:23 <alise> and & is a binary op taking a function and a tuple
19:13:51 <CakeProphet> | partial(func, *args, **keywords) - new function with partial application | of the given arguments and keywords.
19:14:02 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2957715959.txt
19:14:04 <alise> if THAT handled kwargs
19:14:40 <alise> <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2957715959.txt
19:14:40 <alise> <alise> If it handled kwargs, it'd be perfect.
19:14:49 <alise> CakeProphet: oh you mean I implemented that?
19:14:53 <alise> this is just concept art
19:15:07 <CakeProphet> is silently implement it for all functions
19:15:30 <CakeProphet> for lambdas just wrap the expression inside the function call explicitly
19:15:50 <CakeProphet> since you seem to be taking this to a whole new level
19:16:02 <CakeProphet> I would refactor your design to be easier to extend.
19:16:34 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1928734847.txt
19:16:38 <CakeProphet> but if we try to fix everything that's wrong with Python we'll be doing this for months.
19:17:18 <alise> BRACES: It's like Python... but AWESOME.
19:17:26 <alise> I suggest we remove all the side-effects
19:17:40 <alise> then add a hindley-milner type system & inferrer with typeclasses
19:17:46 <alise> we could name it after some logician
19:17:49 <alise> it'd be easy to curry in
19:17:53 <alise> since we'd make function application "f x"
19:17:56 <alise> so... maybe Curry?
19:17:59 <alise> hmm... makes me think of indian
19:18:07 <alise> oh, Schonfinkel really invented currying
19:18:09 <alise> but that name sucks
19:18:13 <coppro> alise: go for his first name
19:18:14 <alise> wait, what was Curry's first name?
19:18:20 <alise> coppro: great minds think alike
19:18:24 <alise> I'll form a committee
19:18:26 <alise> Let's start writing a report
19:18:59 <alise> oerjan: DO YOU HAVE ANY CONTRIBUTIONS WE ARE WRITING THE HASKELL REPORT '98
19:19:05 <alise> OH YOU DO? WONDERFUL
19:19:23 <CakeProphet> alise: hmmm... so I assume prelude and body are macro parameters?
19:19:46 <alise> CakeProphet: yes -- "block prelude { body }" -> block_handler('prelude', 'body')
19:19:48 <alise> braces code in, braces code out
19:20:08 <alise> i guess it would syntax-check prelude and body first
19:20:20 <alise> so that as long as your format can be plugged in with any syntactically-correct braces it'll work
19:22:09 <CakeProphet> alise: you'll probably want a) a few dispatch tables that map to objects that store state about individual declarations. A Block type would contain the source code, line information, possibly AST info, and a method that would take a structure representing your mid-parse source code and plug in its substition somehow
19:22:34 <CakeProphet> a Operator type would have a simple function. They'll likely inherit some features from a base class.
19:23:17 <CakeProphet> but yeah... you'd have these dispatch tables associating the statement name to those data structures... and then you'd just call the method to make them go.
19:23:17 <alise> $ python braces.py <braces.bs >braces.py
19:23:28 <alise> don't worry i have the files i need to reconstruct
19:23:56 <alise> Dammit, nested comments don't work
19:24:44 <CakeProphet> passing in the mid-parse-source-code/AST structure to the dispatch objects processing method would allow the dispatch code to call a method that lets it substitute its changes into the code in some sane way.
19:25:03 <CakeProphet> ...this is completely stream-of-consciousness planning though. I'm likely missing some detail.
19:25:26 <CakeProphet> there'd likely be several steps to compilation.
19:25:51 <alise> Yay, now it works.
19:26:20 <CakeProphet> alise: or... can we scratch my ideas and just make it a hack-together project?
19:27:14 * Sgeo just acquired a wizard's bit in LambdaMOO
19:27:33 <alise> Nested comments work!
19:27:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: you evil man! give the poor wizard his bit back!
19:27:50 <alise> Braces 1.6: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3941535591.txt
19:27:53 <CakeProphet> how are they transla---oh, nevermind, they're comments, you just cut them out.
19:27:59 <alise> So much fun for 142 lines.
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19:28:23 <CakeProphet> so yeah... I think I've got a pretty good idea of how to make implementing control-flow macros in a sane fashion.
19:28:29 <alise> I left debugging stuff in
19:28:48 <Sgeo> alise, I think some Pythonistas want to kill you
19:29:22 <alise> Braces 1.7: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1222944752.txt
19:29:36 <alise> pikhq: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1222944752.txt
19:29:42 <alise> pikhq: This compiles to Python. Self-hosted, you know.
19:30:00 <alise> pikhq: Features: Braces! Semicolons! One-liners work because of this! (# Nested (# comments! #) #)
19:30:05 <CakeProphet> ah... I was wondering why my computer was being so slow. Chrome is taking up a lot of clock cycles for some reason.
19:30:11 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Don't I know you from somewhere?
19:30:12 <Sgeo> alise, great, but how do you actually run it if you don't already have a Braces interpreter?
19:30:23 <CakeProphet> pikhq: yeah, I used to frequent this channel a few years ago. :)
19:30:28 <alise> Sgeo: Howsabout not being a lazy ass and doing s/}//, s/{/:/?
19:30:50 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Somewhat.
19:31:05 <alise> Or, you know, here's a binary:
19:31:09 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8823673854.txt
19:31:12 <alise> Runs on Python model CPUs.
19:31:14 <CakeProphet> alise: I'm much slower at implementing things. But I'd like to say I have pretty good design skillz.
19:31:21 <alise> CakeProphet: Sure... just make it elegant.
19:31:35 <alise> This IS production-ready code, after all...
19:31:53 <alise> Yes. Not the Python one, the Braces one.
19:31:58 <alise> Use the Python one to recompile the braces one.
19:32:11 <alise> Sgeo: pikhq: Here's some of the debauchery you can achieve with this abominable program: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8786875755.txt
19:32:15 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
19:32:30 <alise> I even refrained from linking to the compiled Python in #python so that people didn't use it unless they really wanted to :-)
19:32:42 <alise> pikhq: Note beautiful GNU indentation style now supported.
19:32:48 <CakeProphet> alise: ..... u_u can I just have a link to the latest Python "object" code? ;)
19:32:58 <alise> CakeProphet: Well, I won't accept edits to it.
19:33:01 <alise> I already linked to it.
19:33:14 <alise> CakeProphet: Edit this: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1222944752.txt then compile it to Python with this: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8823673854.txt
19:33:16 <CakeProphet> ...oh, right. hmmm, okay. I'll just use to self-host so I can test
19:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: GNU.
19:33:36 <alise> CakeProphet: Usage: python braces.py <braces.bs >braces2.py
19:33:40 <alise> Don't do >braces.py for obvious reasons
19:33:42 <alise> Also, you MUST use .bs
19:33:48 <alise> I will accept no other file extension :D
19:34:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The one in which while and for blocks are one level in from the for or while?
19:34:32 <alise> Two indents to the brace on its own line, then two additional indents to the body.
19:34:37 <alise> Gross, but Python now supports it!
19:34:39 <CakeProphet> alise: I'm going to go ahead and give it command-line functionality... you can hack the specifics of it to your liking but it'll be pretty straightforward
19:34:46 <alise> Exception to the rule: Functions have their braces at column 0.
19:34:49 <alise> CakeProphet: it already has it
19:35:18 <coppro> alise: what if you want braces on the line with the closing paren?
19:35:26 <alise> coppro: that also works
19:36:11 <alise> print "Hello, world!"
19:36:11 <alise> def bar() { lozenge(); retard();
19:36:19 <alise> Valid Braces code.
19:37:08 <CakeProphet> alise: uh... is it safe to edit the braces file in a Python IDE? :3
19:37:39 <alise> I suggest Emacs in fundamental-mode
19:37:44 <CakeProphet> didn't figure. Lack of syntax highlighting bugs me. But I'll adjust.
19:37:59 <alise> As long as the IDE doesn't reformat
19:38:01 <CakeProphet> ....never got comfortable with Emacs. I use gedit for non-specific hacking.
19:38:11 <alise> Like, as long as it just syntax-highlights, and only autoindents on new lines
19:38:14 <alise> (which you can adjust)
19:38:34 <coppro> most editors you can turn off autoformatting independently from highlighting
19:39:04 <coppro> I can't use anything else now
19:39:07 <alise> I just use Emacs because it's a bit bloated piece of crap but I know a few key commands and tab complete the rest away
19:39:10 <coppro> also I can't play games
19:39:14 <alise> It's sort of cozy, in the way that a really disorganised, small room is.
19:39:19 <coppro> unless I rebind the keys to hjkl
19:39:21 <alise> coppro: you can play nethack
19:39:30 <coppro> (or they're already bound that way to startO
19:40:10 <CakeProphet> alise: I love playing with extremely extensible software though... so I think if I became familiar with all the important key commands I'd love it.
19:40:30 <CakeProphet> but my computer is kind of slow... so I might wait till I get a new one.
19:40:35 <alise> It's a bit naff, Emacs, really, but then I'm a bit naff.
19:40:39 <alise> I'm not cool enough for vim.
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19:41:52 <alise> It actually communicates with nethack in s-exps
19:42:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It is still a way of playing Nethack while ostensibly working.
19:43:26 <alise> I'm bad at Nethack.
19:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I died in Sokoban, and then I kind of lost the will to play any more
19:45:12 <alise> I wonder if anyone has done timing to game Nethack's RNG
19:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the code is near-Lovecraftian in its sanity-destroying powers.
19:46:32 <CakeProphet> alise: so... I'm thinking about moving the brace removing code from the central parsing code... is this a bad idea?
19:46:57 <alise> since blocks should receive their code as braced form
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19:47:03 <alise> because they return brace code
19:47:09 <alise> and python indented code doesn't work in braces
19:47:39 <CakeProphet> alise: well I was going to have it not do the textual substitution just yet and instead construct a fairly lightweight syntax tree.
19:47:50 <alise> Well, go ahead with anything.
19:48:49 * Sgeo wishes LambdaMOO was more popular
19:49:15 <Sgeo> THe language is better than MUSHcode
19:49:22 <Sgeo> [Almost any language is better than MUSHcode]
19:50:18 <CakeProphet> alise: question, is Braces intended to support regular style Python blocks?
19:50:29 <alise> CakeProphet: No. Not really.
19:52:20 <alise> CakeProphet: it doesn't
19:52:23 <alise> because it strips whitespace
19:52:41 <alise> -> wrongly indented for a 0-column "if"
19:54:26 <CakeProphet> ah okay... good. That makes things easier.
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19:57:04 <CakeProphet> alise, Python already has support for its own syntax tree. So I figured we could go ahead and use that, modify it, and then use the already existing standard lib stuff to reconstruct it back into a string
19:57:37 <alise> we're just inventing Metathon here
19:58:00 <CakeProphet> this will give us infix operators though. :D
19:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Although Python's support for its syntax tree is... weird.
19:58:29 <CakeProphet> Yeah I'm about to play with it to see how its structured
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19:58:58 <oerjan> !haskell if if if if True then False else True then False else True then False else True then False else True
19:59:04 <alise> Wow, LambdaMOO's tutorial is way too long.
20:02:34 <alise> "Insert your peepee into her vag" --spam
20:03:24 -!- ws has quit (Quit: BitchX for president.).
20:04:07 <alise> Please note that we intend that the topology of the LambdaMOO universe be
20:04:08 <alise> consistent: rooms should not overlap each other, going east through a door
20:04:08 <alise> should be reversable by going west, etc. Please keep this in mind while
20:04:08 <alise> building new areas.
20:04:45 <oerjan> directed apathic graph
20:06:44 <oerjan> *apathetic doesn't scan right
20:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> How about going through a door and then back takes you into a room nearly identical to the previous.
20:09:20 <CakeProphet> alise, Python intermediate parse tree is ridiculous.
20:09:36 <alise> I could have told you that :P
20:09:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: BECAUSE
20:10:33 <alise> Make Python AWESOME.
20:10:35 <CakeProphet> alise: the MUD I used to maintain could have exits that take you anywhere... they were restricted to compass directions though. :( It was a terrible piece of legacy C code.
20:11:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FORMAT is actually a huge language in itself. It can loop over arrays, call arbitrary Lisp functions, and format as two kinds of roman numeral -- normal and archaic (four is IIII).
20:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, FORMAT has the thing that gives you the word form of a number.
20:11:55 <alise> Common Lisp is glorious excess and grandeur -- in fact, the most superlative of these a gigantic ball of mud has ever been.
20:12:02 <CakeProphet> alise: hmmm... using the AST might not be useful except later on. So I'll ditch it for now.
20:12:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey if american english was good enough for jesus...
20:12:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the problem with CL is that there's no in-language support for libraries.
20:13:17 <CakeProphet> alise: I'd use the AST once we have legal Python code maybe, to walk the tree and implement infix operators or something.
20:13:28 <alise> ASDF is the de-facto standard, but it's also hideously complex like CL itself.
20:13:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
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20:13:42 <alise> CakeProphet: What we basically need to realise is that the actual Python code we want to leave alone
20:13:54 <alise> Like we want to write it as a BNF with some <text> thing that's just plain text except it avoids delimiters and handles strings itself
20:14:02 <alise> And we use <text> whenever regular python code would be
20:14:10 <alise> ais523: I made Python likeable for you
20:14:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: at least it's easy to type
20:14:26 <alise> ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1222944752.txt
20:14:30 <alise> Click and bask in the glory.
20:14:33 <CakeProphet> I think this is the first time I've actually used workspaces in linux.
20:14:44 <CakeProphet> it's helpful when you have four million windows
20:14:46 <ais523> alise: I filter links...
20:14:56 <alise> www. vjn.fi/pb/p1222944752.txt
20:14:59 <alise> ais523: did that appear?
20:15:05 <ais523> the Internet became so much more enjoyable when I cut the Web off from the rest
20:15:11 <alise> ais523: open and bask
20:15:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you can /part
20:15:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
20:16:07 <ais523> alise: you added braces to Python?
20:16:25 <alise> ais523: And removed the colons. And added properly-working semicolons! And (# nested (# comments! #) #)
20:16:33 <alise> And it's written in itself!
20:17:07 <ais523> amazingly, when seeing it I thought "that looks like Python" and didn't even notice the braces
20:17:14 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:17:21 <ais523> I only figured out it was adding braces to Python by trying to work out what it did
20:17:24 <alise> ais523: some more desirable not-quite-links:
20:17:32 -!- Halph has joined.
20:17:33 <alise> www. vjn.fi/pb/p8786875755.txt debauchery possible with this beautiful gift to humanity
20:17:43 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
20:17:48 <alise> ais523: note beautiful ``GNU indentation style''
20:18:11 <alise> ais523: here is a bootstrapping binary for Python-model CPUs: www. vjn.fi/pb/p8823673854.txt
20:18:34 <ais523> alise: wow, you've been busy
20:18:36 <alise> ais523: and finally, here's a look at what's to come when we complete the project of making Python Awesome: www. vjn.fi/pb/p1928734847.txt
20:18:41 -!- huldumadurin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:18:44 <ais523> was this all done on the weekends, or did you figure out a way to do it over the week?
20:18:45 <alise> Yes indeed, infix operators, and custom control structures!
20:18:50 <alise> ais523: I've just done it today...
20:19:16 <ais523> at this rate, you'll end up inventing Perl
20:19:21 <alise> that's what I said
20:19:32 <alise> we kept coming up with ideas that just brought it that little bit closer to perl
20:19:46 <zzo38> Now finally Python has some more useful commands
20:20:04 <alise> zzo38: best praise i could receive
20:20:18 <alise> that infix/block thing isn't coded yet though
20:20:21 <alise> CakeProphet is currently having a go at it
20:21:49 <zzo38> Why does the ".dmg" file contains a lot of stuff, when trying to open it with 7-Zip first I need to extract the .dmg file and then .hfs and then .pax
20:21:56 <Sgeo> There is a library in LambdaMOO
20:22:03 <Sgeo> People are able to check out books
20:22:17 <Sgeo> There's also a book listing all check-outs
20:22:20 <Sgeo> There are way too many
20:22:26 <Sgeo> Including books left in $nothing
20:22:40 <ais523> zzo38: sounds like it's an image of an OS X disk
20:22:40 <Sgeo> Which is, quite frankly, scary. I think they're gone forever
20:23:05 <ais523> the .pax files would be on the disk's file system, the .hfs file /is/ the file system, the .dmg file is the disk itself, and the .7z file would be compressing that
20:23:07 <zzo38> Now do you have to program LambdaMOO to recover books
20:23:41 <zzo38> 7-Zip documentation doesn't mention .pax files
20:23:52 <ais523> zzo38: they're backwards-compatible with .tar files
20:23:52 <zzo38> It mentions .dmg and .hfs
20:23:56 <oerjan> braces - straightening out python's bite
20:24:05 <ais523> try renaming it to end .tar and seeing if it works
20:24:19 <zzo38> Well, it worked when it was .pax
20:24:28 <zzo38> I did manage to get the files I needed
20:24:40 <Sgeo> zzo38, I should be able to locate as many of the books themselves and return them to me
20:24:57 <Sgeo> Or actually, I think there's a go_home command
20:25:27 <alise> <ais523> the .pax files would be on the disk's file system, the .hfs file /is/ the file system, the .dmg file is the disk itself, and the .7z file would be compressing that
20:25:29 <zzo38> The .dmg when extracted contains a file called "2.hfs" and it seems to contain some sort of package files. I didn't need any package files however, just extracting the .pax contained what I needed
20:25:43 <ais523> alise: I know, that seems to be confusing zzo38
20:25:59 <alise> you were confused by saying the whole thing would be wrapped in a 7z
20:26:01 <alise> zzo38: .dmg is a (possibly-compressed) OS X disk image
20:26:10 <alise> so it'll have been: wrapping, compression, file system
20:26:11 <ais523> alise: OK, agreed that the whole thing doesn't need to be wrapped
20:26:15 <zzo38> The file I was looking for was not available in the other format other than .dmg format, but the files in the .pax were able to be used on cross-platform
20:26:44 <zzo38> I know it is a disk image, when downloading from source-forge it said so in the MIME type
20:28:59 <zzo38> I have written only a few program in Python, for solitaire card. (I don't plan to use Python for much else, however) Someone told me Python codes is easy to hack, I think they are correct, I was able to program in these codes without knowing much about Python, so I think they are right
20:29:50 <zzo38> However, I have at the start of each file "game_id=200002" and stuff like that but is there way to make it set it automatically based on the file-name of the codes, instead?
20:29:51 <CakeProphet> alise: you use while loops quite well. I generally don't end up using them when I program in Python.
20:30:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:30:08 <zzo38> Like, if the file is called "200002.py" or "200002.pyc" it should set "game_id=200002"
20:31:02 -!- hiato has joined.
20:31:32 <Sgeo> I have successfully returned a porn magazine to its rightful location
20:31:59 <alise> zzo38: __file__ or something iirc
20:32:06 <alise> zzo38: it's really bad style though, maybe even deprecated
20:32:11 <Sgeo> "Cheese it, the cops!" squealed the large-hipped hussy as the vile midget defiled her globular knockers and drove his rapidly dwindling joy stick into her odiferous navel.
20:32:11 <alise> CakeProphet: I'd prefer to use a for and a smarter generator, but eh
20:32:22 <alise> Python doesn't have many control structures
20:32:27 <zzo38> alise: Why is it bad style deprecated
20:32:37 <Sgeo> It's a magical porn magazine. Reading it gives different stuff each time
20:32:39 <alise> zzo38: Because it can break things if you move the file, I guess.
20:33:03 <zzo38> alise: I wanted to use it so that you can load the different card-games files by renaming them instead of changing each code
20:33:33 <zzo38> So you can put the files in plugin directory
20:33:39 * Sgeo reads the code for the magical scroll he's using that tells him which books were checked out of the library
20:34:07 <zzo38> Otherwise someone else can write the plugin with the same game_id numbers and it can be conflicted
20:36:23 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:36:31 <Sgeo> Oh, sure, when I'm borrowing something, such as a magical list, it's FULLY CAPABLE of flying home
20:37:56 <alise> "Research students still regularly visit the MOO (often sent there by their professors) and start asking users about these events. They are surprised to find that sexual actions are currently used as a form of affectionate greeting."
20:38:14 <alise> You cannot escape the fundamental nature of the internet
20:38:24 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah a generator would be nifty... but ultimately to implement the generator you'd have to use the same control structures. Or am I wrong?
20:38:49 <alise> CakeProphet: you would. unless you used an iterator to emulate a while
20:39:08 <alise> like, __next__ raises that end of iterator error if not-condition
20:39:14 <alise> otherwise it yields, say, None
20:39:22 <alise> for _ in While(lambda: condition) { ... }
20:39:43 <alise> News just in, GvR is removing while from Python 4 because it encourages ugly iterating code and can be emulated with for anyway
20:39:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: you're getting awfully close to I Put On My Wizard Robe And Hat territory, here
20:41:53 <alise> the idea of sexual actions as an affectionate greeting is hilarious
20:41:53 <Sgeo> Of course the stuck books aren't magnetic
20:41:58 <alise> "Hi there! *sucks your cock*"
20:43:48 <alise> Feynman was a constructivist: "What I cannot create, I do not understand." :P
20:44:34 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
20:45:41 <alise> ais523: so, you know unix first edition
20:45:55 <ais523> using it doesn't mean you know it
20:46:00 <alise> you haven't used it
20:46:21 <alise> ais523: have you? you have only used later ones.
20:46:31 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ "The unix-jun72 project has scanned in a printout of 1st Edition UNIX from June 1972, and restored it to an incomplete but running system."
20:46:33 <ais523> ah, I meant the first streak of editions
20:46:36 <alise> "Userland binaries and a C compiler have been recovered from other surviving DECtapes."
20:46:46 <alise> ais523: You can try 1st Edition UNIX with the very same emulator.
20:46:47 <ais523> UNIX version numbering is confusing
20:47:04 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/Readme
20:47:07 <alise> Man pages: http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/
20:47:14 <alise> NAME sin, cos -- sine cosine
20:47:15 <alise> SYNOPSIS jsr r5,sin (cos)
20:47:15 <alise> DESCRIPTION The sine (cosine) of fr0 (radians) is returned in fr0. Thefloating point simulation should be active in either floating
20:47:19 <alise> Yes, it gave library examples in assembly.
20:47:31 <ais523> that makes sense, actually
20:47:35 <alise> I was expecting "wow I'ma try this", not "heh" :(
20:47:46 <alise> The C compiler from 2nd Edition UNIX is also installed and works, but the
20:47:46 <alise> language is a very early dialect of C. The closest reference to the language
20:47:47 <alise> at this point in time is this, but it is probably 2 years too late:
20:47:47 <alise> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cman74.pdf
20:47:51 <alise> I don't think 1st Edition /had/ C
20:48:06 <alise> There's no cc in the scanned man pages, and the library examples are in asm
20:48:14 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/for had fortran though
20:48:18 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/b and B
20:49:09 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/6/basic basic :)
20:49:23 <alise> http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/bas another basic
20:51:39 <Sgeo> alise, instead of spending time in a shitty 3d environment, I'm now spending time in a shitty text environment
20:52:22 <alise> i should make my own moo (with blackjack and hookers)
20:53:28 <CakeProphet> alise: I forgot. Did you say you were going to make an empty brace include a pass?
20:53:42 <alise> CakeProphet: Yes, {} should be pass.
20:54:01 <ais523> a lone semicolon should also be pass?
20:55:28 <CakeProphet> alise: wow... you know I always had trouble figuring out how to make a parser generate useful information about unterminated strings and paren expressions
20:55:38 <CakeProphet> but... looking at this source code... it's now very obvious.
20:55:48 <alise> CakeProphet: you're welcome :P
20:55:49 <CakeProphet> if you're in a string, and the source is done, it didn't end. :P
20:56:02 <alise> CakeProphet: Of course, you should maintain a stack with (line,col) positions so that the errors can complain where the opener is.
20:56:08 <alise> ais523: hmm... no.
20:56:29 <ais523> I mean, a semicolon that's otherwise redundant
20:56:47 <alise> since ; is strictly newline-and-indent
20:56:54 <alise> since you can't tell between
20:57:00 <alise> without mor complex analysis
20:58:10 <alise> that translates to
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21:06:36 <pikhq> It takes forever to find the fixed point of this optimisation function on LostKng.b.
21:06:49 <alise> pikhq: Why aren't you adding a backend to that other one?
21:07:22 <pikhq> Incidentally, it helps to make the optimisation function actually recurse beyond the first loop.
21:07:31 <pikhq> alise: Because I'm not.
21:07:40 <alise> pikhq: But I want to see it :-(
21:07:43 <alise> It would be amazing.
21:08:43 -!- UppunudLamppu has joined.
21:11:12 <zzo38> Maybe ImageMagick should have a mode to load block JPEG format, to load JPEG without fully decompressing it, so that it is losslessly, such as: convert blockjpeg:1.jpg blockjpeg:2.jpg
21:11:14 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:11:37 <pikhq> It does actually possess lossless JPEG transformations.
21:14:36 <zzo38> But according to the document there is some problems with it?
21:14:45 <pikhq> alise: I'm worried about whether or not this is just doing an infinite loop.
21:14:55 <pikhq> Though, it *is* just LostKng. :P
21:15:10 <pikhq> It worked on hanoi.b just fine, so...
21:15:24 <pikhq> (hanoi.b is, obviously, also massively large.
21:18:02 <CakeProphet> underscores are so time consuming. :P But okay.
21:18:17 <alise> I will end up rewriting half your code anyway :-P
21:18:31 <alise> CakeProphet: BTW, I strongly suggest the extensibility is done via @-commands.
21:18:39 <alise> Which go where a regular statement would -- ; @foo is acceptable, for instance.
21:18:56 <alise> @compiler { ... } should compile & run the enclosed braces code and put the variables, etc. it binds into some internal hash table.
21:19:04 <pikhq> alise: I discovered a massive optimisation on the optimiser.
21:19:12 <CakeProphet> alise: Yeah I'm just devising a framework and reworking the parsing code so it carries more information around.
21:19:16 <alise> Then the regular "@infix <symbol> a_function_in_compiler_space" where it's called with both arguments
21:19:20 <pikhq> Make it work by both recursing over the whole thing *and* fix-pointing.
21:19:38 <alise> and "@block <name> a_function_in_compiler_space" makes "block foo { bar }" call block_handler('foo', 'bar') -- which then returns braces code, which is used in place of the block
21:19:46 <pikhq> Compiling hanoi.b takes 1 second instead of 20.
21:19:55 <alise> pikhq: there has to be some "proper" way to do optimisation.
21:20:26 <pikhq> I just realised what I just said.
21:20:32 <pikhq> *I made the optimiser faster*.
21:20:34 <alise> pikhq: I don't get what's funny :P
21:20:42 <pikhq> "Optimised the optimiser!"
21:20:52 <alise> pikhq: My suggestion is thusly: fixpointing over the whole thing is slow, right?
21:21:14 <alise> So divide it into an even number of pieces; fixpoint all of those, and whenever two adjacent pieces become fixpointed, merge them into one piece and fixpoint them.
21:21:16 <pikhq> LostKng now takes 2 seconds to compile. And longer to assemble.
21:21:19 <alise> Repeat until there is only one piece; fixpoint that.
21:21:25 <alise> This will work for arbitrary-sized programs.
21:21:37 <alise> The theory is that after a block is fixedpoint, only the places where it connects to adjacent pieces will need optimisation.
21:21:44 <alise> So this is edge/"seam" optimisation after chunk optimisation.
21:21:45 <pikhq> alise: Now, it finds the fixed-point of "Optimise the entire parsed program".
21:22:03 <pikhq> Suboptimal, but it handles LostKng in 2 seconds.
21:22:07 <pikhq> This is fast enough, IMO.
21:22:22 <alise> Does it optimise multiplications yet?
21:23:05 <pikhq> nasm takes minutes to *assemble* the output.
21:23:15 <pikhq> I get the feeling it dislikes thousands of labels. :)
21:24:39 <pikhq> But hey, it works. :)
21:26:08 <pikhq> 5 minutes to assemble LostKng.
21:26:24 <pikhq> *Massive* amount of labels.
21:27:19 <alise> pikhq: The really interesting thing about an optimising BF compiler is that it's more of a decompiler.
21:27:35 <alise> A bunch of low-level instructions to a printing of "Hello, world!". A bunch of low-level instructions to a for-loop doing a multiplication.
21:30:55 <alise> pikhq: you know esotope's intermediate language?
21:30:58 <alise> sort of a half-assembly half-bf thing
21:31:00 <alise> that's a good idea.
21:32:24 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, if I do much more on this, I'll probably want to implement something like that.
21:32:35 <pikhq> It'd certainly make the code generator function cleaner.
21:35:30 <CakeProphet> alise: that's cool... (about the BF compiler) and makes sense.
21:35:44 <CakeProphet> alise: you have a set of very low level operations and need to convert them higher-level constructs.
21:37:53 <CakeProphet> is there a command line utility that lets you window multiple command lines into one desktop environment window?
21:38:22 <CakeProphet> I'd love to have bash in the same window as this IRC client.
21:45:33 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/aUBM
21:46:06 <pikhq> I should really clean up the comp function.
21:49:49 <alise> CakeProphet: a tabbed terminal emulator.
21:50:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Your mother.
21:50:28 <alise> data Syscalls = Read | Write | Indeterm deriving Eq
21:50:45 <pikhq> Indeterminite which was the last syscall used.
21:50:47 <alise> "Sum up what you've been doing." "Your mother."
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21:50:52 <alise> pikhq: Weird. Why?
21:51:16 <pikhq> alise: Came after a loop, and I've not bothered doing enough flow analysis to tell.
21:53:25 <zzo38> IM is a general raster image processor, for modifying images. It will not do lossless JPEG modifications. But now I invented a idea of the way in which it can do lossless JPEG modifications. The image is formatted such that moving blocks around and flipping/rotating blocks will do the same to the image, while other transformations might not work in the same way
21:53:29 <coppro> I want a balanced programming language
21:53:58 <zzo38> coppro: A balance programming language, for what kind, like, for low-level or high-level or script or whatever??
21:54:15 <zzo38> What exactly is a "balanced programming language" anyways?
21:54:24 <coppro> in tune with the universe
21:54:25 <zzo38> O, you want funge like
21:54:32 <coppro> also it has to use balanced ternary
21:54:52 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone invents a funge-like with balanced ternary
21:55:33 <alise> coppro: balanced language would always have same number of offs and ons
21:55:38 <alise> so the only information is carried in /where/ they are
21:55:48 <coppro> the = + and - operators will be the tritshift-left, tritshift-left-and-increment, and tritshift-right-and-decrement operators
21:56:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Literals seem like the only thing that would be affected.
21:56:58 <alise> no, fibonacci-imaginary
21:58:33 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I suppose if you use INTERCAL operators it can be affected how the bits are stored like??
21:59:13 <alise> lol, i is 10.2 in quarter-imaginary
21:59:19 <coppro> hmm... also, you shouldn't be able to cross wires directly. Rather, the < operator, if confronted with an IP coming from the right, will split it into two vertical IPs
22:00:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What WOULDN'T be the base.
22:00:46 <coppro> also vertical IPs should need to use | for constants, - is the reflection operator (and vice versa)
22:00:51 * coppro is going crazy at this point
22:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12...
22:01:22 <alise> Negafibonacci works
22:01:41 <alise> now quarter-imaginary = 1/4 imaginary = base 2i
22:02:14 <alise> n imaginary = base 1/2n i
22:02:30 <alise> phimaginary = base 1/2phi i
22:02:35 <alise> = base 0.30901699... i
22:02:50 <alise> Combine rules of quarter-imaginary and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base.
22:02:59 <alise> maybe 2phi i would be better
22:03:16 <coppro> what is 100i in base 10i?
22:03:58 <coppro> would it have to be a0?
22:05:09 <coppro> (since 100 would be 100)
22:05:15 <alise> CakeProphet: Any luck?
22:05:40 <alise> coppro: does quarter-imaginary work like that though?
22:06:30 <coppro> (and you mean base 0.25i?)
22:06:34 <zzo38> If you use lossless JPEG you might convert to grayscale as: blockjpeg:1.jpg -channel GB -evaluate Set 0 blockjpeg:2.jpg (or, something similar, at least)
22:07:10 <zzo38> While flipping is just: blockjpeg:1.jpg -flip blockjpeg:2.jpg
22:07:56 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah. I code slowly though. nowhere actually implementing anything yet. But I should having something done by the end of today. Got anything you want to change?
22:08:48 <coppro> alise: if you mean weird, yes
22:08:55 -!- dbc has joined.
22:09:01 <alise> CakeProphet: Yes I do have a request
22:09:05 <alise> CakeProphet: http://why.usesthis.com/images/interviews/why.4.jpg
22:09:30 <zzo38> Lossless scaling: blockjpeg:1.jpg -dctscale 50% blockjpeg:2.jpg
22:09:40 <zzo38> It should allow things like that
22:09:45 <alise> (The entire set of brilliance: http://why.usesthis.com/)
22:10:25 <alise> "I sip from a peach-colored ring mottle glass lo-ball. the ice cubes I use are semi-circular. and the ice tray itself is a misty blue plastic. my freezer allows 3 trays vertically. the strength of the freezer goes up to 5, but I am personally satisfied with leaving it at 2."
22:10:32 <alise> in a what-programs-do-you-use interview
22:11:43 <alise> "my favorite software ever is Windows XP, because they colored it to look like the start menu was made from freshly-mowed grass and montana sky! this opened new possibilities for hacker landscapers to send orchards to each other as e-mail attachments. (an entire orchard is 130k if you put it in an APPLES.BIN file.)"
22:11:54 <alise> "[...] the only other software I use besides windows xp is kjofol."
22:12:04 <zzo38> That doesn't even seem to make a good sensible
22:12:39 <coppro> alise: quarter-imaginary allows the use of i. If you used i in base i, 100i would be 100i, but 1000i would be 1000. Weird
22:12:58 <coppro> Also, neat fact: in base -1+i (or -1-i, which is the same), the set of numbers that share the integer part of a number is a fractal
22:13:01 <alise> zzo38: It's even better because it's in why's handwriting!
22:13:05 <alise> zzo38: He's crazy but I still miss him.
22:13:27 <alise> He mocked everyone mercilessly but never seemed to be unfriendly, and always had something fun/interesting/cool in the world of programming to point out.
22:16:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:18:07 <alise> "I am using a Lemote Yeelong, a netbook with a Loongson chip and a 9-inch display. This is my only computer, and I use it all the time. I chose it because I can run it with 100% free software even at the BIOS level." --rms
22:18:18 <alise> this guy uses a shitty chinese netbook just to get 100% open source
22:18:49 <alise> "Until I can have them both, freedom is my priority. I've campaigned for freedom since 1983, and I am not going to surrender that freedom for the sake of a more convenient computer.
22:18:49 <alise> I do hope to switch soon to a newer model of Yeelong with a 10-inch display."
22:18:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because he's rms
22:18:54 <alise> it would be wrong for him not to
22:19:38 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:19:50 <alise> CakeProphet: it's not my fault why is (well, was) a beautiful artist.
22:20:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: every single account and internet prescense he owned save, uh, I think an almost-empty vimeo account, were completely wiped out overnight. By him.
22:20:58 <alise> His GitHub account with all his code, his current & discontinued blogs, his Twitter account, his YouTube account, ... everything.
22:21:03 <alise> Disappeared, just like that. Internet suicide.
22:21:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody knows.
22:21:23 <alise> Sure, he went to conferences occasionally and played silly songs about Ruby with his band...
22:21:30 <alise> Nobody knew his name though, not for sure.
22:22:05 <zzo38> I also think ImageMagick should support audio formats, which if loaded, load as a image with height=1. You can have red channel = left channel, blue channel = right channel. And use -density operator to set the sample rate. -flop to reverse a sound. Some of the other ImageMagick operators are also useful for audio
22:22:10 <alise> It's a real shame because he was one of my heroes basically.
22:22:20 <alise> And he had a lot of wonderful programs and code that he can't give his wonderful touch to any more.
22:22:25 <alise> And I'll always miss hackety.org.
22:22:46 <alise> I have a feeling he's not going to come back -- and if he does it won't be the same personality, so we'll never know.
22:23:16 <zzo38> Do you think some of ImageMagick operators are useful for audio files, which ones do you think are best?
22:23:46 <alise> zzo38: Really bad compression of music by using JPEG!
22:24:06 <zzo38> Yes, that would certainly be bad for music, JPEG is meant for photographs
22:24:18 <zzo38> Although, perhaps someone should try it just to see how bad it is, in fact
22:24:41 <alise> It sounded as awful as you'd expect
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22:25:40 * Sgeo is magically teleporting books from nowhereland to the library
22:25:59 <coppro> the library is awesome
22:26:02 <coppro> do not mock the library
22:26:40 <Sgeo> Except for all the non-magnetic books
22:28:36 <alise> "Even functions are functions! I invented this concept. Just like Steve Jobs will one day." --why
22:30:22 <alise> [[Heres a case where a list is being called as a function. Yes, everything is a function! We could also have called: foods (index=2).
22:30:22 <alise> Strings, tables, numbers are also functions. The following returns the 3rd character of the string.
22:30:22 <alise> "ヘ(^_^ヘ)(ノ^_^)ノ" (2)
22:30:22 <alise> Even functions are functions! I invented this concept. Just like Steve Jobs will one day.]]
22:31:23 <pikhq> Looks suspiciously Japanese.
22:32:16 <alise> pikhq: Well, Ruby is Japanese.
22:32:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: who knows.
22:32:52 <alise> - People were starting to poke at his identity, which he probably didn't like
22:32:57 <alise> - Some of his last few tweets:
22:33:01 <alise> programming is rather thankless. you see your works become replaced by superior works in a year. unable to run at all in a few more.
22:33:01 <alise> if you program and want any longevity to your work, make a game. all else recycles, but people rewrite architectures to keep games alive.
22:33:02 <alise> ahh im just so totally suspicious of anyone who claims to love progress but stridently defends the status quo!!
22:33:09 <Sgeo> I just found evidence that LambdaMOO is a Myst game
22:33:14 <pikhq> alise: That it is.
22:34:53 <CakeProphet> to be a new-generation dynamic language that isn't as strict as Python... essentially.
22:34:53 <Sgeo> It's so flexible it's like asbestos dust!
22:35:23 <alise> Python and Ruby originate from the same time.
22:35:27 <alise> Ruby is actually matzlisp.
22:37:19 <alise> matz is the creator of Ruby.
22:37:47 <alise> Ruby was originally called matzlisp; he plugged in a Smalltalk-style object system and reworked the syntax. And made lambdas uglier, so he added "blocks" which are like limited lambdas that you can only have one of per function call.
22:38:01 <alise> It's not /that/ bad a language.
22:38:19 <alise> Larry Wall -- Christian
22:38:26 <alise> Matsumoto Yukihiro -- Mormon
22:39:23 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
22:42:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Probably agnostic/atheist.
22:42:34 <alise> Religious people usually object to the idea of AI.
22:42:37 <alise> Especially back in the 70s.
22:42:43 <oerjan> pikhq: YOU DON'T KNOW MCCARTHY? HOW UNAMERICAN
22:43:15 <alise> I want to hug McCarthy and other people :(
22:43:18 <alise> THEY WILL DIE SOON THAT IS NOT GOOD
22:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: True, but they'll be laughing at us when the robots take over.
22:43:23 <pikhq> oerjan: I find it amusing that it was called the "Committee on UnAmerican Activities".
22:43:43 <pikhq> As though they wanted to be *doing* unAmerican activities.
22:43:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:45:23 <alise> the King's English book suggested that would be good instead of hyphens iirc, but said it was too radical to adopt
22:49:58 <alise> CamelCase is indeed ugly.
22:50:54 <alise> I prefer the diaeresis: "premptive".
22:50:55 <oerjan> !haskell putStrLn "\001swats Phantom_Hoover and alise -----###\001"
22:51:12 <oerjan> !haskell putStrLn "\001ACTION swats Phantom_Hoover and alise -----###\001"
22:51:13 * EgoBot swats Phantom_Hoover and alise -----###
22:51:30 <alise> !haskell putStrLn "\nQUIT :butt"
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23:07:50 <alise> So, who are you then?
23:08:01 <oerjan> huldumadurin: i thought you were icelandic, was just about to ask you about Besti flokkurin
23:08:23 <huldumadurin> Just a random Faroese 17-year-old with a newfound interest in Esoteric Languages.
23:08:35 <alise> huldumadurin: Well, that's certainly an interesting combination.
23:09:02 <alise> I'm an English 14-year-old with a long-established interest in esoteric languages.
23:09:14 <oerjan> alise: a joke party won the local elections in iceland's capital
23:09:19 <alise> Also, I'm male despite the nickname. Long, and ultimately pointlessly boring, story.
23:09:30 <alise> oerjan: what's their platform
23:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm a Scottish 1X year old with a semi-long history in esolangs.
23:09:53 <oerjan> alise: some serious and some silly
23:10:02 <alise> oerjan: how boring
23:10:11 <alise> 1X year old; so assuming X is 10 and this is base 11...
23:10:19 <alise> you're 21 years old.
23:10:31 <oerjan> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10194757.stm
23:10:31 <alise> what do the dozenal society guys use?
23:10:42 <oerjan> "Key pledges included "sustainable transparency", free towels at all swimming pools and a new polar bear for the city zoo."
23:11:25 <alise> Indeed, you are nine years old
23:13:01 <oerjan> "The party also called for a Disneyland at the airport and a "drug-free parliament" by 2020."
23:13:25 <alise> hm when did i first start coming here
23:13:27 <alise> when i was 12 i think
23:13:35 <alise> with a brief stint when 11, perhaps
23:13:50 <alise> i am making you feel old presently.
23:14:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not actually sure if I had broadband when I was 11.
23:14:13 <alise> 'cuz you need broadband to access irc (ok but i did)
23:15:04 * oerjan is pretty sure he didn't have broadband when he was 11.
23:15:25 <oerjan> seeing as that was in '81.
23:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: They didn't *have* broadband when you were 11.
23:15:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quite possibly not
23:16:15 <alise> I got internet at 5 or 6 or something
23:16:22 <alise> This may explain why I am fucked up!
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23:17:33 <alise> 8-10 or something was my first steps
23:17:37 <alise> then i started properly programming at like 12
23:17:40 <oerjan> alise: some 10 years from now it will be discovered that everyone who starts internet that young goes insane when they grow up
23:17:48 <alise> but i still think of my programming self one or two years ago as quite immature...
23:17:48 <myndzi> my kids aren't gonna learn "mama" or "papa" as their first words
23:17:51 <myndzi> they are gonna learn "hello world"
23:17:53 <alise> oerjan: I am already insane!
23:17:55 <alise> oerjan: the state proves it
23:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> And then because of my school's insane curriculum I didn't touch one of their computers for a year.
23:18:02 <alise> myndzi: please don't have kids :D
23:18:08 <oerjan> alise: well you're precocious [sp]
23:18:16 <alise> oerjan: WHYEVER WOULD YOU SAY THAT
23:18:25 <alise> i try to stay on the asshole side of things
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23:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> But then I changed school and they taught programming in Javascript.
23:19:44 <alise> my favourite language is -- i don't have one :(
23:19:52 <alise> maybe J, J is pretty flawless but it doesn't do much
23:19:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: JScript then not javascript :P
23:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You expect them to pay that sort of attention to detail?
23:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> For exam purposes, a macro has nothing to do with text substitution, it is a script in a word processor.
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23:29:00 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what'd be totally awesome to implement?
23:29:26 <pikhq> Replacing each and every one of the algorithms on the "Brainfuck algorithms" page with their equivalents in assembly.
23:31:08 <oerjan> lightweight love machine
23:31:28 <alise> pikhq: What kind of assembly?
23:31:33 <alise> That's too ... specific.
23:31:39 <alise> Most uses of the algorithm will be tweaked slightly...
23:31:48 <alise> like hard-wiring hello world program to an efficient version
23:31:51 <alise> or lostkng to a hand-optimised version
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23:32:15 <pikhq> alise: Among other things.
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00:21:01 <alise> "And if there's anything that genitals need, it's a surjective sin function."
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01:05:24 <Sgeo_> Uh, LambdaMOO feels like Alphaworld in some ways
01:05:28 <Sgeo_> It's a ghost place
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01:10:27 <alise> Is sex still used as a greeting
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01:34:35 <alise> ais523: design your perfect language in one IRC line
01:34:55 <ais523> I don't know what my perfect lang would be like
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01:35:21 <ais523> in general, I tend to use different langs for different types of problems
01:35:27 <alise> ais523: perfect lang as of your current understanding
01:35:41 * alise writes down his guess as to what you'll come up with
01:35:44 <ais523> not being vaporware is pretty important
01:35:47 <alise> *her, stupid nick pronouns!
01:35:53 <ais523> so I might have to use an existing one, like Perl
01:36:04 <alise> ais523: just the actual core language design, and a new one; plus one short code sample
01:36:10 <alise> one or two lines. go :D
01:36:11 <pikhq> So, I'm thinking that I should *really* make this thing compile into something halfway between assembly and Brainfuck to make some optimisations easier.
01:36:25 <alise> pikhq: Or just add a backend to the bfc
01:36:29 <ais523> that's a really really hard question...
01:36:34 <pikhq> alise: This is more entertaining!
01:36:37 <alise> ais523: ok, just /one/ of your best languages then
01:36:53 <alise> pikhq: you basically want asm with structured loops
01:37:00 <CakeProphet> pikhq: maybe make a virtual instruction set that has some elements of BF and some elements of most computer architectures
01:37:06 <ais523> but I'd say it's something that's flexible enough that you can implement pretty much what you want in it, making it into another language; but the stdlib's good enough that you don't have to unless you really want to
01:37:28 <alise> ais523: less abstract than that: paradigm, basic syntax, basic structure of typical code
01:37:35 <alise> I'll get other people to do one too I swear >_>
01:37:41 <ais523> syntax is unimportant...
01:37:42 <pikhq> alise: And then after that turn it into jumps and then finally output code.
01:38:06 <pikhq> (just because good god I hate how ugly just going loops->assembly looks)
01:38:14 <ais523> when I have language ideas, unless it's an idea for a silly eso syntax, the lang doesn't even have a syntax until I start to implement it, usually
01:38:33 <alise> ais523: oh, i don't mean syntax on that level
01:38:36 <alise> I mean more... structural syntax
01:38:45 <alise> like, any statement/expression divisions, how expressions are structures
01:38:49 <ais523> just like sometimes I start to say sentences, and then realise one of the words I want to use doesn't exist
01:38:55 <alise> I'm just thinking of a really brief, 2-line overview plus one tiny code sample
01:38:56 <ais523> (which incidentally I consider proof that people don't think in English)
01:39:41 <ais523> I don't think I'd have X/Y divisions for any X and Y, though, except maybe for strong static typing
01:40:02 <ais523> in the langs I work with at university, like ICA, statement is just a data type
01:40:12 <ais523> and things like semicolons are operators that work on that type
01:40:30 <alise> STOP DODGING THE QUESTION :D
01:40:55 <ais523> alise: I don't know the answer, so I'm at least trying to give a bit of an answer, even if it's not a fully satisfactory one
01:41:16 <alise> meanwhile, let's admire this code: http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs
01:42:01 <ais523> hmm, the upgrade to Ubuntu Lucid seems to have worked quite well
01:42:08 <ais523> major downside: the system no longer recognises headphones
01:42:25 <ais523> major upsides: pulseaudio no longer causes programs using it to crash, the graphics works really really well
01:42:47 <ais523> Adanaxis is working for the first time ever on this computer, so I'm pretty pleased with that
01:45:54 * pikhq redoes his optimisation structure somewhat while he's at it
01:45:58 <ais523> fourth dimension's represented as red-green, also the coordinates of everything are shown on a little HUD
01:46:16 <ais523> http://www.mushware.com/
01:47:19 <alise> ais523: upside: the new theme is pretty
01:47:33 <ais523> and then put the window decorations back how they were before
01:47:49 <ais523> turns out I use the window menu a lot, who'd have known
01:48:01 <alise> bind it to right click?
01:48:06 <alise> in fact it is right click
01:48:10 <ais523> and to get it in the new theme, you have to right-click the title bar, which is tricky with a touchpad
01:48:33 <ais523> also, I didn't see any reason to change a placement which is arbitrary anyway from the setting I had before
01:49:15 <ais523> I like the new theme partly just because it annoys the sort of people who say purple+orange never works
01:49:44 <ais523> although admittedly the theme itself is mostly grey
01:51:20 <alise> it's not orange at all
01:51:22 <alise> and it's mostly dark brown
01:51:25 <alise> and light beige for text
01:51:32 <alise> (very very dark greyish brown)
01:51:58 <ais523> strange, maybe I customized it somehow by accident
01:53:03 <pikhq> alise: I'm making my optimiser into multiple functions with obvious purposes so I don't hate myself!
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01:54:46 <Sgeo_> I'm in a room in LambdaMOO called Utilitarian Utopia
01:56:48 <ais523> http://imgur.com/iOYDM.png
01:56:52 <Sgeo_> alise, come to LambdaMOO?
01:57:09 <alise> ais523: that's not orange :P
01:57:13 <alise> Sgeo_: i have to wait 1 day to get it
01:57:21 <Sgeo_> I take it you already did it?
01:57:22 <ais523> alise: there's orange used, but not by default
01:57:27 <ais523> things like selected buttons have orange highlights
01:57:33 <alise> ais523: well, true
01:57:35 <ais523> as in, orange isn't on the screen except when you interact with it
01:57:46 <alise> Sgeo_: i'm only interested if they really do use sexual acts as colloquial greetings though because that's just hilarious
01:58:07 <Sgeo_> alise, right now, there's not much "they"
01:58:24 <Sgeo_> There are maybe 2 people or so besides me actually active. Hopefully that's due to the weekend
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01:58:31 <Sgeo_> Erm, *labor day weekend
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01:59:44 <ais523> it's a holiday in the UK today (Monday) too
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02:00:06 <ais523> it's just an arbitrary holiday chosen for when the weather's often good, I don't think it has any significance
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02:08:25 <pikhq> alise: So, my intermediate code is now having an "offset from current pointer" argument for everything...
02:09:25 <pikhq> Which should open me up to a decent number of *other* optimisations.
02:14:13 <pikhq> And splitting up the optimiser into multiple functions makes it much nicer-looking.
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02:36:00 <Sgeo_> The root of the hierarchy of LambdaMOO is located in a package
02:36:11 <Sgeo_> A "rather unassuming cardboard box"
02:36:41 <alise> i still don't have my account
02:36:45 <alise> maybe i'll just imitate you
02:36:52 <Sgeo_> You can login as a guest
02:37:35 <pikhq> Testing this in GHCI, I can get this:
02:37:36 <pikhq> ">-[<->+++++++]<-.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>----[<+++>----]<.------------.>--[<->---]<+.--------.+++.------.--------.>----[<+++>----]<.>------[<---->+]<+."
02:37:42 <pikhq> [Add 1 (-1),Loop 1 [Add 0 (-1),Add 1 7],Add 0 (-1),Out,Add 1 4,Loop 1 [Add 0 7,Add 1 (-1)],Add 0 1,Out,Add 0 7,Out,Out,Add 0 3,Out,Add 1 (-4),Loop 1 [Add 0 3,Add 1 (-4)],Out,Add 0 (-12),Out,Add 1 (-2),Loop 1 [Add 0 (-1),Add 1 (-3)],Add 0 1,Out,Add 0 (-8),Out,Add 0 3,Out,Add 0 (-6),Out,Add 0 (-8),Out,Add 1 (-4),Loop 1 [Add 0 3,Add 1 (-4)],Out,Add 1 (-6),Loop 1 [Add 0 (-4),Add 1 1],Add 0 1,Out]
02:38:27 <Sgeo_> I now contain a rather unassuming cardboard box.
02:38:29 <pikhq> Mmm, offset-from-current-pointer.
02:41:07 <Sgeo_> alise, are you Russet Guest?
02:41:38 <alise> i'm no guest -- why?
02:41:45 <alise> <Sgeo_> I now contain a rather unassuming cardboard box.
02:41:49 <alise> great, you are bigger than lambdamoo
02:41:52 <alise> you broke their topology
02:41:54 <alise> that's against the rules
02:42:08 <alise> pikhq: now make it bettar
02:42:12 <alise> pikhq: do linear loop optimisation
02:42:19 <alise> you can completely deloop any loop with balanced < and > and no io
02:42:32 <alise> Sgeo_: how do i get where you are
02:42:52 <Sgeo_> alise, try @join Sgeo
02:43:48 <alise> You begin to move into the room but encounter some resistance. With a snap
02:43:49 <alise> you're catapulted back where you came from.
02:43:49 <alise> Either Yellow_Guest doesn't want to go, or La Cantina de los HARD AGAINST THE
02:43:49 <alise> GAYS didn't accept it.
02:43:54 <pikhq> alise: Let me make sure I get proper code output first. ;)
02:44:05 <pikhq> Currently, "Hello, world" doesn't work correctly.
02:44:09 * alise considers neuter or splat gender
02:44:18 <alise> Sgeo_: what's the private chat again?
02:44:31 <Sgeo_> alise, I think there's a whisper thing
02:44:51 <pikhq> I'm assuming I've just done something rather stupid on the code generator.
02:46:21 <alise> Sgeo_: so how do i teleport somewhere >_>
02:46:25 <alise> also splat or neuter what do you think
02:48:30 <pikhq> Which of course I did.
02:48:47 <Sgeo_> You can add rooms to your easy-@go list with @rooms
02:48:55 <Sgeo_> I'll show you a hotel like thing
02:48:59 <pikhq> The *end* of a loop also needs to keep track of its offset. XD
02:49:01 <alise> no i wanna see the library
02:49:10 <alise> pikhq: or just have that be a mutation...
02:49:16 <Sgeo_> BTW there's a map you can get to with help map
02:49:23 <alise> pikhq: [>>] will work right?
02:49:27 <alise> so it has to mutate anyway
02:49:27 <Sgeo_> It's not a perfect map
02:49:32 <Sgeo_> @rose makes things easy
02:49:53 <pikhq> alise: Shouldn't have to mutate for >[<->+]
02:49:56 <alise> how do i see people in thise room
02:50:19 <pikhq> Yes, of *course* that does.
02:51:30 <pikhq> The problem is that currently, I'm generating (psuedocode) "b: if(p[1]) goto e;--*p;p[1]++;e: if(*p) goto b"
02:51:37 <pikhq> Which is of course wrong.
02:52:05 <alise> pikhq: well that's a stupid way of modelling it
02:52:15 <pikhq> alise: It's called a *bug*.
02:52:27 <pikhq> Bugs tend to be stupid.
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03:09:40 <pikhq_> Now is the time for linear loop optimisation!
03:10:10 <pikhq_> And then, make my code generation not a hack!
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03:13:14 <alise> pikhq_: btw [add n] terminates iff some extended euclidean algorithm on n returns some result
03:19:18 <alise> 64 return Conjunction(*realranges)
03:19:18 <alise> 65 elif isinstance(cond, Conjunction):
03:19:18 <alise> 66 return Conjunction(*map(self.adoptcond, cond))
03:19:18 <alise> 67 elif isinstance(cond, Disjunction):
03:19:18 <alise> 68 return Disjunction(*map(self.adoptcond, cond))
03:19:20 <alise> esotope sure is complex
03:19:39 <alise> pikhq: [add n] requires you to do extended euclidean algorithm
03:19:41 <alise> to get a loop that is basically
03:19:54 <pikhq> alise: Hmm? Explain further?
03:19:55 <alise> if (current tape cell % result_of_algo == 0) /* or something */ { infinloop }
03:20:17 <Sgeo_> alise, you aren't here with me. Why not?
03:20:59 <pikhq> So you can see whether or not that can terminate, and replace it with either Set 0 or infinloop.
03:21:10 <pikhq> Okay, I'll have to figure out how to do that.
03:21:18 <alise> pikhq: it's in esotope source
03:21:23 <alise> look for the extended euclidean algorithm
03:21:25 <Sgeo_> Utilitarian Utopia = #4965
03:21:40 <Sgeo_> In case both alise and myself forget, and we all steal everything
03:22:32 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Just a few questions: low-hanging fruits ATM = ?
03:22:51 <alise> pikhq: linear loop -- definitely; and also more complex loops than while
03:22:51 <pikhq> Simple loop handling?
03:22:59 <alise> if, for instance -- and also recognizing seeks like [>>]
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03:24:11 <CakeProphet> Go does it... but it's stupid. the binding goes first
03:26:03 <pikhq> alise: So, then. Try and get "-[<->+++++++]<-" into the more obvious thing. Got it. :)
03:26:08 <Sgeo_> alise stole all the library functions' containers
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03:29:49 <alise> Sgeo_: CAN I EAT THEM
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03:37:09 <alise> CakeProphet: any luck w/ my code?
03:38:37 <CakeProphet> yeah... no luck with the wireless though. it's storming.
03:38:54 <CakeProphet> what was the macro code supposed to look like?
03:39:08 <CakeProphet> my wireless, that is. I did not give your compiler wireless support. :P
03:39:11 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8884766854.txt
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03:39:32 <alise> def f(*args) { return args }
03:39:32 <alise> unless g(4,5,6) == [1,2,3,4,5,6] {
03:39:34 <alise> print "Something is seriously wrong!"
03:39:48 <alise> CakeProphet: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5345871812.txt code and example in one
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03:45:04 <Sgeo_> alise, we didn't get all the utilities
03:45:32 <Sgeo_> $wiz_utils is located in ur-Rog
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03:55:14 <zzo38> Some people at FreeGeek like to say "Ping" and "Pong" to each-other, even.
03:58:47 <Sgeo_> Everything in the universe is ultimate a type of object currently being held in a package by alise
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04:12:58 <pikhq> Fuck this connection.
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04:19:37 <Sgeo_> alise, give me the utilities now
04:19:54 <Sgeo_> alise, they don't seem to want to be moved
04:19:54 <zzo38> Do a mahjong game, you will flip over one tile even though is same upside-down, other player will think you don't have that one, and then you can win. (MCR has all-same-upsidedown as a scoring combination. MCR is full of bad stuff)
04:19:54 <alise> AND BESIDES I DISCONNECT
04:20:13 <Sgeo_> I think the utilities are stuck in a guest body
04:21:43 <Sgeo_> No, I can get most of them out
04:21:48 <Sgeo_> Just not the Hydrolics
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04:26:14 <zzo38> Perhaps we can make a modern kind of the Abundance system, using Gforth. This way we can use a real free software license (Abundance includes non-free components and requires that it not be used for military use). Perhaps this new system can be called Exuberance?
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04:29:39 <zzo38> Do you think the MCR rules for mahjong is stupid? Riichi is superior. WSoM is also better than MCR
04:30:27 <zzo38> What does "SFIUHE" means?
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04:31:16 <pikhq> Fuck this Internet connection.
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04:42:15 <alise> Sgeo_: bed soon i swear. don't hit me
04:42:28 <Sgeo_> alise, I think I figured out how to get #1 out of the package
04:42:41 <CakeProphet> alise: you know, if you use __slots__ you could make a way to declare memory efficient instance variables on objects.
04:46:58 <CakeProphet> alise: I am now to the point that I have a massive, non-tested and most likely buggy compiler that's just a few more tweaks away from being done. :)
04:47:57 <alise> CakeProphet: show the code!
04:51:10 <CakeProphet> alise: ...not yet. It's too crazy to make sense yet.
04:51:45 <CakeProphet> it's actually a legitimate parser though... and easy to extend
04:52:05 <CakeProphet> ...but untested. It's just the design that I like. :)
04:52:06 <alise> aww please? I'm going to bed like now, so...
04:52:35 <CakeProphet> alise: ...it's not really going to make any sense if you read it right now. I haven't implemented everything yet.
04:53:19 <CakeProphet> I'll show you tomorrow... if you're going to bed like now.
04:55:07 <alise> I can read any code.
04:55:59 <Sgeo_> Discovery: If you give someone the package, and the Root Class isn't in it, the package will grab the Root Class and put it in it
04:57:04 <alise> The Pyongyang Hardcore Resistance is an underground anarchist movement in North Korea. Their music has been smuggled from North Korea through underground contacts and can be downloaded from their MySpace page.
04:57:56 <CakeProphet> alise: I can't allow it to be seen in such a half-fucked-up condition
04:58:05 <alise> CakeProphet: /msg it then
04:58:15 <alise> This is electronic hardcore music from Pyongyangs underground anarchist movement! I have received these tracks on tapes and CDs from my North-Korean refugee contacts in China. They have helped to smuggle this material. PHR is an extreme electronic music duo in Pyongyang. The other part of the duo moved to North-Korea to his family and introduced hardcore techno to his friend who has lived his whole life in NK. Im not Pyongyang Hardcore Resistance, o
04:58:15 <alise> r a member of it. Just spreading this to let the world know the underground resistance is fighting! My identity and my contacts identities shall remain secret as we are fucking paranoid about North-Korean spies! This is a FUCK YOU from North-Korean underground to corrupted leaders Kim Jong Il and Lee Myung Bak! This is also a FUCK YOU to both South-Korean and North-Korean popular music that try to keep the masses dumb and obedient! This is the bassdrum of
04:58:16 <alise> truth exported to you straight from Pyongyang! Peace in people, violence in music!
04:59:07 <CakeProphet> alise: I'm having trouble thinking out the implementation
04:59:17 <CakeProphet> because it's like... a non-deterministic tree of sorts.
05:01:45 <CakeProphet> basically you have coroutines as parser elements... if they see a pattern that they turn into a token... they'll start looking ahead in state until they either a) don't match their pattern completely or b) complete successfully and output the tokens they've constructed
05:02:33 <alise> Sgeo_: I'm not tired right now, because I got up at 12am last night. I'm talking to people. I promise I will go to bed at some point.
05:02:38 <alise> Can I request leave from bed-duty?
05:03:00 <Sgeo_> alise, don't you need to be not-tired during the week?
05:03:01 <CakeProphet> and the crawler is managing an arbitrary number of these things... communicating with them through each cycle of iteration
05:03:08 <alise> Sgeo_: i have monday off
05:03:15 <alise> Sgeo_: and no, not really.
05:04:03 <alise> 5:03am but i am not tired, it is already as light as it will get anyway, and i am talking
05:04:11 <alise> leave from bed duty granted?
05:04:25 <Sgeo_> alise, if you think you'll be able to go to bed tonight, sure
05:06:05 <zzo38> My character is not big cockroach and has no exoskeleton. And Obkwag does not have a capability to fly, and they have no wings. (The DM sometimes forgets these things)
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05:20:15 <alise> coppro: WRONG AGAIN SUNSHINE.
05:32:13 <zzo38> What do *you* think about the things the DM nearly always forgets, like this?
05:34:30 <alise> i think of a hopeless cheesecake swimming in the ocean
05:35:24 <alise> CakeProphet: I will pay you five billion karma points to see the compiler
05:38:48 <alise> ais523: you are still here?
05:41:04 <ais523> I haven't been paying attention for hours
05:43:16 <alise> ais523: when'd you awaken?
05:43:55 <ais523> I haven't been asleep...
05:44:02 <ais523> I'll go to bed during the day, probably
05:44:09 <coppro> I see the compiler and raise the linker
05:44:11 <alise> ais523: so you woke at normal time yesterday
05:44:17 <alise> ais523: ok, do you have to be up on tuesday?
05:44:22 <alise> you are basically my model of a reasonable person
05:44:28 <alise> so i will base my life decisions on you
05:44:33 <alise> coppro: for Python?
05:44:41 <alise> it's just Braces (aka BS) :P
05:44:45 <ais523> alise: yes, on Tuesday
05:44:51 <alise> ais523: but not Monday?
05:45:14 <ais523> alise: no, it's a holiday
05:45:34 <alise> ais523: then you are clearly a reasonable man just like me
05:45:43 <alise> who just happens to have a crippling sleep disorder.
05:48:51 <alise> CakeProphet: we should probably do this for python 3
05:48:56 <alise> CakeProphet: Since we're throwing backwards compatibility away.
05:56:00 <alise> CakeProphet: alright to what :P
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06:13:41 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:18:24 <zzo38> It says there is "No output"?
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08:56:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently not signing your children up for cryonics makes you a bad person.
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09:28:45 <lament> isn't working cryonics no different from any other medical treatment? does your philosophy make them all pointless too?
09:29:13 <Gracenotes> I did in fact read his fan fiction the other day
09:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> lament: Doesn't cryonics work by freezing you after you die?
09:30:03 <Gracenotes> it started out well. though became somewhat less witty and more plot-laden as the tale progresses. nonetheless a satisfactory use of time.
09:31:53 <lament> as long as you can be brought back to life, you're not really dead - just very sick
09:32:06 <lament> so you're frozen until treatment becomes available
09:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> You're assuming that treatment will definitely be available.
09:33:46 <lament> same with other medical treatments - they don't always work
09:34:09 <lament> some operations have like 50% failure rates
09:34:24 <lament> but people still do them because 50% is better than 100%
09:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's different from saying that in the future everything will be curable.
09:35:20 <lament> but in both cases there's a probability of success
09:35:37 <lament> we can't estimate it well for cryonics, and it's probably small
09:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But with cryonics, you have next to no idea what that probability is.
09:36:08 <lament> as long as you don't think it's exactly 0, there's utility in it
09:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And if there's only a small probability of it working, why spend a lot of money on it?
09:36:44 <lament> because some people have a lot of money and enjoy living?
09:37:26 <Phantom_Hoover> But saying that you're a bad parent if you don't sign your children up for it is ridiculous.
09:37:58 <lament> i was just wondering if you actually had a philosophy that made cryonics pointless.
09:38:08 <lament> it doesn't seem like you do.
09:39:16 <lament> i just think it's a scam
09:39:24 <lament> and the probability is 0 after all
09:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Transhumanists in general often seem nearly religious, though.
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09:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool, the British government recently considered giving AIs modified citizenship.
09:51:59 <ec> Phantom_Hoover: I’d join, were I british.
09:53:04 <ec> Phantom_Hoover: I stole that for a tweet… unfortunately, I couldn’t /via without a Twitter username for you: http://tau.pe/15095694929
10:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, isn't that the guy who said he could divide by 0?
10:14:06 <augur> i just realized that my little theorem proofer program happens to be turing complete
10:15:04 <augur> but its TC precisely because it allows inference rules of the form XfY => XgY
10:15:37 <augur> where X and Y are arbitrary strings metavariables, and f and g are arbitrary strings
10:15:48 <augur> thus you can encode a type 0 grammar in it
10:16:37 <augur> eventually itll probably be implemented in ObjC
10:17:01 <augur> but right now im writing a simple, easy-to-toy-with version in ruby
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10:18:01 <augur> no programming language is TC if running in the real world
10:21:51 <ec> (what are we arguing about?)
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11:05:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if there's a thing that makes my console make random bleeps
11:21:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, does this beep you?
11:22:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it would be trivial to write such a thing. A background processes that does basically: while (1) { sleep(rand() % SOMECONSTANT); putchar(7); }
11:22:47 <AnMaster> well, not sure that will compile
11:23:19 <AnMaster> hm will compile, maybe with warning
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11:23:42 <AnMaster> rand() returns int, sleep() takes unsigned int
11:24:23 <AnMaster> strange that rand() doesn't return unsigned int... after all it is always in the interval [0,RAND_MAX]
11:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> gnome-terminal doesn't seem to support the ASCII bell.
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11:48:41 <relet> do the languages 'beglad' and 'netfunge' which are mentioned in the funge-98 specs actually still exist somewhere?
11:48:59 <Deewiant> AFAIK they never existed anywhere
11:49:14 <relet> not even as a spec?
11:50:03 <relet> now that's esoteric. :D
11:50:40 <relet> that's a gap one could fill for instant fame.
11:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, according to Wikipedia the Analytical Engine would have been TC.
11:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Although "Turing-complete" here means something rather different to everywhere else.
12:00:48 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> gnome-terminal doesn't seem to support the ASCII bell. <-- think it is an option?
12:01:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sound on? maybe gnome sound settings?
12:02:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, relet: weren't beglad supposed to be something like corewars?
12:02:21 <AnMaster> or do I misremember completely
12:02:59 <Deewiant> Never found anything about it as far as I can recall
12:03:54 <Deewiant> mtve: Got more of those mailing list archives by any chance? :-P
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14:21:14 <relet> Deewiant: befunge gladiators... that sounds like something that should be done.
14:22:08 <Deewiant> The idea was core wars in befunge
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14:24:56 * CakeProphet wants a concurrency model so awesome that it can race condition on command.
14:29:20 <CakeProphet> It will race condition at O(n)... where n is the number of characters in a quine program that you submit to the master thread for review. If it deems your quine worthy... it will give you a memory address and REALLY WANT YOU TO WRITE A SHIT TON OF STUFF TO IT FUCK YEAH
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14:30:25 <CakeProphet> in the past 36 hours I have gotten exactly 4 hours of sleep.
14:30:30 <CakeProphet> this might explain why I am making no sense.
14:30:33 <relet> the R command to enter a race condition.
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14:34:07 <CakeProphet> is there a concurrency model where you make a bunch of changes to a copied version of the shared state and then commit the changes atomically or whatever?
14:34:43 <CakeProphet> and then like... I don't know, threads engage in a thumb war upon trying to commit at the same time
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15:14:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I propose that it be the solution to all resource conflicts.
15:23:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Running out of memory? Winner of the thumb war gets it.
15:23:12 <relet> I just liked the ring of it.
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15:24:03 <relet> Both accessing the same thumb - fail
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15:32:11 <CakeProphet> ...so I just read some category theory and it's starting to make sense
15:32:42 <CakeProphet> but now it seems like a slightly disorganized clusterfuck... what with all these enriched categories and higher order categories.
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15:56:53 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, vacation today
15:56:59 <alise> Bank holiday -- but since I slept at 6am it's not much of one, seeing as it's 4pm.
15:57:52 <Sgeo_> alise, I think I can make an object that lets you eval, even as a guest
15:58:15 <alise> I think lambdamoo is primarily based on the honour system
16:00:08 <CakeProphet> alise: sup... so, I decided I was making it way too complicated.
16:00:16 <alise> CakeProphet: I usually do that, too.
16:00:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
16:00:28 <CakeProphet> probably had to do with me being sleep deprived and on Adderall to keep me awake.
16:00:52 <alise> When you're sleep deprived maybe you shouldn't try to stay awake :P
16:01:05 <Sgeo_> alise, being able to take something that can't be abused or destroyed just because you have it does not an honour system make
16:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, perceptrons are a fairly weak type of neural net.
16:01:18 <alise> Sgeo_: but topology and stuff
16:01:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: neural nets are shit btw
16:01:31 <Sgeo_> alise, there are topology twisting areas
16:01:35 <Sgeo_> Particularly the hotel
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16:02:18 <Sgeo_> Non-thematic things are generally accepted at places like the hotel, and for more official additions, the owner of the room needs to add the link anyway
16:03:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I am incapable of shaking off the feeling that it's the afternoon.
16:04:00 <oerjan> any australians here who can swat alise?
16:04:07 <CakeProphet> alise: was fixing my sleep cycle. I've been going to bed at like 8-10 AM
16:04:19 <CakeProphet> today I woke up at 8 AM. Like a normal person.
16:04:28 <CakeProphet> ...tired as fuck though. But I'll catch back up.
16:04:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's because it is, silly
16:05:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it is the afternoon!
16:05:54 <alise> CakeProphet: Oh, I've been on the 8pm to 4am schedule before
16:05:57 <alise> CakeProphet: that thing fucks you up
16:06:16 <alise> 10am to 6pm is almost as bad though
16:06:43 <alise> how do you sleep that long...
16:06:54 <alise> CakeProphet: have you considered taking melatonin to help with your sleep schedule? it must be great, it was recommended on less wrong :P
16:07:04 <CakeProphet> alise: ...I mean, 10 am is when I went to sleep
16:07:14 <alise> i mean start of sleep to end of sleep
16:08:10 <CakeProphet> alise: I might. I'm ridiculous sleep deprived right now and it would still take me about an hour or two to fall asleep
16:08:18 <alise> also my usual way of resetting is to not sleep one night
16:08:24 <alise> then just stay on with willpower till the next night
16:08:28 <alise> this only works after being on a schedule for a while
16:08:36 <alise> anyway you'll wake up at a reasonable time
16:08:45 <alise> i doubt drugs will help :P
16:10:57 <alise> but the post recommending melatonin was well thought out and by someone i've talked to before and know from elsewhere
16:11:00 <alise> so I'm inclined to trust it
16:11:20 <alise> The probability of cryonics works out for the cost.
16:12:04 <alise> Well, pick whatever probability you think you have of actually being revived. It can be low, say p=0.01.
16:12:09 <CakeProphet> alise: I'm not even sure if this source code is even useful to modify off of. it's in a halfway state between like three different designs. :P
16:12:21 <alise> Then take the cost of cryonics -- $20,000 I believe, though it's paid for with health insurance.
16:12:30 <CakeProphet> but I'm done with it. I need to focus on important things
16:12:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: then you don't value your life much
16:12:53 <alise> basically it's weighing probability-of-cryonics-working with cost-of-cryonics and how-much-you-value-life
16:13:02 <alise> but i'm not going to bother completing what i started because evidently you're already decided
16:13:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how about you learn statistics? i hear less wrong are quite good at it...
16:13:32 <alise> I wasn't accusing you of irrationality.
16:13:36 <alise> I was accusing you of not listening.
16:13:57 <CakeProphet> you can kind of see the craziness I was trying to do in Generator. SourceCrawler is the root pass-through parser part though
16:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But humanity is notoriously awful at predicting the future.
16:14:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No future-prediction required -- and I hope you realise that the unpredictability of the future is one of Eliezer's main rags.
16:14:35 <alise> I'm not a religious LW-believer, but I do think they're more right about cryonics than some other things.
16:14:48 <CakeProphet> alise: if I had kept working on it... I was pretty much just going to delete Generator and just do everything monolithically in SourceCrawler... but with fancy look_ahead and position stacks
16:15:21 <CakeProphet> I actually kind of blame Python. I forgot how easy it is to impulsively design in Python
16:15:24 <alise> does it actually do anything?
16:15:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: You need to be able to predict to some extent what will happen in the future to calculate the probability, surely?
16:15:28 <alise> and yeah, that's one of my main problems with Python
16:15:33 <alise> you think "oh, this is working first time" but then it dies
16:15:35 <alise> CakeProphet: right
16:15:56 <CakeProphet> alise: at one point it was more implemented... but then I deleted that part. :P
16:16:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: To work out how much cryonics is worth to YOU right now, just take whatever you believe the current probability of cryonics working is. Obviously, it is low, because you are very skeptical!
16:16:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there is such a thing as lower bounds on probability, which don't require you to get predictions perfectly right
16:16:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If you want to be convinced of another probability, well, that's a lot harder. It'd involve arguments about rate of improvement of technology, what has already been done (a vitrified kidney has been restored)
16:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> But it is how to get an accurate probability that is the problem.
16:16:35 <alise> and some other things.
16:16:55 <alise> I personally believe that cryonics works out to be at least breaking even, even for a quite low-probability estimate.
16:17:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's still living tissue. And of course it isn't possible now.
16:17:10 <alise> We HAVE to extrapolate in predicting the future. It's all you can do.
16:17:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you don't need an _accurate_ probability. you need only to get the lower bound higher than your cost/value
16:17:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Note that you don't pay the $20,0000.
16:17:46 <alise> You get it with life insurance.
16:17:50 <alise> (not health insurance; i was mistaken)
16:18:37 <alise> I'm not sure. America is weird.
16:18:41 <alise> Maybe it works here too. I don't know.
16:18:44 <alise> All my information is American.
16:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> (Also, I have philosophical issues over whether cryonics is resurrection)
16:19:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Dualist.
16:19:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
16:20:35 <CakeProphet> alise: I realized what I was trying to do was entirely unnecessary. Basically SourceCrawler kept track of reading forward into the source, and to process it, it would invoke a list of coroutines that each have a reference to the crawler. There would be methods so that each coroutine could do things like look ahead from its current position, check to see if the next input matches such and such string. the output from the corouti
16:20:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Same atoms, different place.
16:21:00 <alise> Unless you believe that /walking around/ kills you.
16:21:11 <alise> No. No they're not.
16:21:23 <alise> They're certainly not in the same arrangement.
16:21:41 <CakeProphet> alise: it's similar semantics to how parser monads work in Haskell, except in crazy dynamic Python world. :P
16:21:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you believe the near-death stories, then you _could_ argue medical science is _already_ doing resurrection ;D
16:21:54 <alise> CakeProphet: maybe we could use a ~REAL PARSER~
16:22:04 <CakeProphet> alise: ...I don't even know wtf a real parser is
16:22:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And you do realise that all your cells are being replaced all the time?
16:22:20 <alise> I doubt you share a single atom with your six-month-old self.
16:22:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, how's dying been?
16:22:34 <alise> Oh wait, you haven't noticed it because we have a wonderful brain that keeps a continuous experience going.
16:22:38 <alise> Even when our hearts stop we resume.
16:22:42 <oerjan> (and if you don't believe in spirituality then i don't see why you should consider resurrection anything special at all)
16:22:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Great! So our entire consciousness is contained in a few tiny atoms.
16:22:56 <alise> That's reassuring. It makes sense, all these sentient atoms.
16:23:07 <CakeProphet> alise: well... it's not reall a parser at this point. The whole point is to match specific parts of the code.... but most of it you can ignore (right?)
16:23:15 <alise> CakeProphet: It's a half-parser, basically.
16:23:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm ridiculing a ridiculous hypothesis.
16:23:24 <CakeProphet> oh... and I did not realize anyone else knew who the fuck Emperor Norton the First was. :D I am pleased.
16:23:37 <alise> CakeProphet: A real parser -- the easiest would be recursive descent.
16:23:48 <alise> Since you can actually manually-write those.
16:23:55 <alise> But I think I'll just keep writing this.
16:24:21 <alise> CakeProphet: We will need to recurse in this one, because we need to pre-parse the contents of {}.
16:24:24 <alise> So we can pass it to a block.
16:24:30 <CakeProphet> A recursive descent parser is a top-down parser built from a set of mutually-recursive procedures (or a non-recursive equivalent) where each such procedure usually implements one of the production rules of the grammar. Thus the structure of the resulting program closely mirrors that of the grammar it recognizes.
16:24:36 <CakeProphet> alise: that kind of sounds like what I was doing.
16:26:07 <alise> CakeProphet: I like how this thing became self-hosting in under one day.
16:26:50 <oerjan> alise: i recall many neurons are not replaced. although whether the atoms in them still are, i'm not sure. maybe atoms in their dna last throughout life...
16:27:01 <CakeProphet> def macro_rule(proc) { yield proc.match_forward("@compiler"); if (not proc.look_ahead("I don't even know)) { yield someOtherGenerator(proc); }
16:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, slow exchange of atoms is not the same as total cessation of all brain activity.
16:28:38 <oerjan> alise: although i realize that probably still has no relevance to memory
16:29:03 <alise> if wut { abcdef; quux; print "abc"; bar { ... } }
16:29:03 <alise> [Block('if', 'wut', [Stmt('abcdef'), Stmt('quux'), Stmt('print "abc"'),
16:29:03 <alise> Block('bar', [], [...])])]
16:29:04 <alise> *but* we should parse it as
16:29:06 <alise> ('if', 'wut', 'abcdef; quux; print "abc"; bar { ... }')
16:29:08 <alise> first, since that's what block handlers will take (they won't need more,
16:29:14 <alise> ^ thoughts on the above?
16:29:20 <oerjan> CakeProphet: note that recursive descent parser implemented naively have trouble with left-recursive grammar rules
16:30:17 <oerjan> (haskell's parsec, which is _essentially_ recursive descent, has specially made combinators for handling those)
16:30:23 <alise> CakeProphet: basically the /only/ thing we should do at first
16:30:28 <alise> A B { C } into (A,B,C)
16:30:34 <alise> oerjan: isn't it PEG?
16:30:54 <alise> popular with the hipsters parsing thing
16:30:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsing_expression_grammar
16:31:02 <CakeProphet> alise: yeah, then recurse into C to do the same
16:31:15 <alise> CakeProphet: because if A is a registered block, we do A_handler('B','C')
16:31:19 <alise> and then compile /that/
16:31:26 <alise> if A isn't registered, though, we recurse into C, yes.
16:31:41 <AnMaster> alise, CakeProphet hm? what are you doing? :)
16:33:03 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, how does it look currently?
16:33:08 <alise> CakeProphet: Lemme show you the current source.
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16:33:24 <oerjan> alise: "A parsing expression grammar essentially represents a recursive descent parser in a pure schematic form ..."
16:33:24 <alise> AnMaster: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1257459481.txt
16:33:30 <alise> AnMaster: Note the glorious self-hostingness.
16:33:32 <CakeProphet> alise: I realized you could support instance variable declarations in Python using the __slot__ thing. It would actually make Python more memory efficient if you did __slots__ with everything
16:33:42 <alise> AnMaster: Feature not seen there: (# nestable (# inline #) comments #)
16:33:48 <CakeProphet> alise: feel free to completely ditch what I was doing. I think it's too disorganized to work with.
16:33:57 <AnMaster> alise, hm, got any good example showing the esotericness of it?
16:34:00 <alise> CakeProphet: I already have :D
16:34:07 <alise> AnMaster: you can use gnu indentation style with python.
16:34:16 <alise> written in itself!
16:34:40 <alise> AnMaster: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6558475366.txt lovely example~
16:35:05 <AnMaster> alise, okay the { } indeed. can't spot anything else obvious in the self hostingness
16:35:17 <alise> AnMaster: Look at the indentation.
16:35:18 <alise> Isn't it beautiful.
16:35:22 <alise> AnMaster: Anyway we're adding more.
16:35:37 <alise> AnMaster: Ever wanted to create your own Python operators and control structures?
16:35:40 <AnMaster> alise, well the indentation doesn't matter any longer I presume now that you have {}
16:35:43 <alise> AnMaster: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p4242397287.txt This should work sometime.
16:35:59 <AnMaster> alise, hm (# nested (# comments #) indeed #) <-- I have seen this comment style somewhere, I can't remember where
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16:36:09 <alise> my inspiration was (# putting the #-style line comments in brackets #)
16:36:13 <alise> Anyway, gawp at http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p4242397287.txt
16:36:15 <CakeProphet> alise: might want to change the syntax up though to make it easier to parse
16:36:24 <oerjan> alise: parsec has a strange default backtracking rule that's slightly similar to PEG, but the try combinator selects full backtracking
16:36:31 <AnMaster> alise, now that seems to approach perl in some aspects
16:36:41 <alise> AnMaster: Ah, but it's more like it's approaching Lisp!
16:36:57 <AnMaster> alise, maybe feature-wise, but not syntax-wise
16:37:39 <AnMaster> syntax-wise it is approaching some mix of llvm asm (iirc it is filled with @foo kind of stuff) and perl
16:38:43 <CakeProphet> I think if I had kept going with my crazy parser system it would have ended up being similar to parsec in some ways.
16:38:44 <oerjan> (you can backtrack from a non-try sub-parser only if it has consumed no characters)
16:39:20 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, parsec is haskell iirc?
16:39:51 <alise> carser pombinators
16:40:04 <CakeProphet> alise: at one point I had it save copies of the parser state onto a stack... like perfectly, so you could basically time travel.
16:40:22 <alise> CakeProphet: infinite-lookahead!
16:41:13 <alise> CakeProphet: You know, maybe we should drop the compiling-to-Python thing and just make this a language.
16:41:24 <CakeProphet> alise: also, if you're ever dealing with a stream of characters that you just need to accumulate and not really search through and stuff... consider StreamIO
16:41:50 <alise> AnMaster: doesn't it have { ... }
16:41:58 <alise> CakeProphet: :( But this is so close to a good language :P
16:41:59 <AnMaster> alise, I can't say I'm very good at lex
16:42:15 <alise> separate lexers/parsers are for fags :P
16:42:18 <AnMaster> alise, I wonder if you could do some dirty tricks in the style of factorial with C++ templates in pure lex
16:42:23 <alise> Of whom I've NOTHING AGINST
16:42:31 <alise> It is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice to separate a lexer and a parser
16:42:36 <alise> It's just an abomination against nature, is all
16:42:46 <CakeProphet> alise: so if the compiler were self-hosting... would it be possible to write the compiler hooks in the language itself?
16:43:09 <CakeProphet> alise: I mean you certainly could make a language... but that greatly increases the amount of time and effort.
16:43:23 <CakeProphet> but it should definitely have an awesome type awesome
16:43:37 <alise> <CakeProphet> alise: so if the compiler were self-hosting... would it be possible to write the compiler hooks in the language itself?
16:43:45 <alise> <CakeProphet> but it should definitely have an awesome type awesome
16:43:57 <alise> what does that even
16:44:18 <alise> but but but types are like grawt
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16:45:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: i was under the impression that lex converted stuff into a FSA, so the rules themselves can only be regular. but you can probably to weird stuff in the { ... } actions.
16:45:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right, it is the "insert C" right?
16:45:33 <alise> Automatic character creation for LambdaMOO:
16:45:34 <alise> A character has been created, with name "alise" and password [REDACTED]
16:45:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay what about yacc/bison?
16:45:37 <CakeProphet> alise: I guess variable declarations is fine
16:46:01 <CakeProphet> alise: but typeclasses in imperitive languages? It'd be like interfaces but better.
16:46:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: yacc/bison is LALR(1), deterministic pushdown automata
16:46:28 <alise> CakeProphet: But... you don't need them...
16:46:45 <oerjan> so definitely not TC in the parsing itself either
16:47:56 <CakeProphet> alise: it would suck if your latest object-code version of the self-hosting compiler had a terrible bug and could no longer compile your languages compiler... and you had no backup.
16:48:08 <alise> CakeProphet: I have braces_orig.py
16:48:16 <alise> Strip the (# ... #) comments and it'll parse the {}; stuff
16:48:31 <alise> And I won't be using custom control structures in the compiler
16:48:35 <alise> So I've bootstrapped this one safely
16:48:36 <oerjan> (LALR(1) is a subset of LR(1), which is up to grammar rearrangement equivalent to LR(k) and all deterministic pushdown automata in power)
16:48:40 <alise> Good thing my language is so close to its parent :P
16:48:48 <CakeProphet> I mean... I would just emit human-readable Python. I know it's difficult and all with that enforce indentation.
16:48:56 <alise> It is human-readable.
16:49:13 <CakeProphet> you're a towel though... so you can't read it.
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16:49:14 <oerjan> and _non-deterministic_ pushdown automata <=> context-free languages, still not TC
16:49:16 <alise> Just replace the first N spaces of a line with 4N spaces.
16:49:30 <alise> Voila, it's identical to braces_orig.py apart from some newlines.
16:50:49 <alise> it should be called
16:50:55 <alise> Braces -- Clean up your BS
16:52:03 <alise> You know, .bs is a TLD...
16:52:12 <alise> http://braces.bs/braces.bs :P
16:53:03 <CakeProphet> so how about lazy variables/function parameters?
16:53:16 <alise> That would be ... a big change
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16:56:15 <CakeProphet> alise: I meant explicitly lazy by the way. you'd declare the parameter or variable that way.
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16:56:45 <alise> Maybe we should JUST USE IO.
16:56:45 <CakeProphet> branch(cond, lazy truecode, lazy falsecode)
16:56:59 <oerjan> alise: i still want a pun on python, braces and teeth in there.
16:57:23 <CakeProphet> alise: How about instead of hacking Python we just support the io community?
16:58:17 <CakeProphet> also there's the possibility of hacking the CPython interpreter itself. It's quite a monster though.
16:58:35 <alise> CakeProphet: Meh, the Io community is almost non-existent :-)
16:58:41 <alise> CakeProphet: and the stdlib is piss poor
16:58:51 <alise> And Steve Dekorte believes piracy is stealing :-(
16:58:51 <CakeProphet> right... WHICH IS WHY IT NEEDS OUR AWESOME CODING POWERS
16:59:00 <alise> I refuse to support a project by such a man!
17:00:32 * oerjan gets disappointing results on a google image search for "python with braces"
17:01:03 <alise> CakeProphet: We should make "from __future__ import braces" say "You already have them!" instead of "Not a chance."
17:01:52 <CakeProphet> I didn't even realize there was a thing in Python
17:02:25 <alise> http://timhatch.com/projects/pybraces/ the previous art
17:02:35 <alise> it's LAME though, LAME
17:03:25 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, does this beep you? <-- i am pretty sure beeps are one of the things censored by channel mode +c
17:04:22 <oerjan> (given that it's probably at least as irritating as everything else +c is intended to censor, combined)
17:04:45 <CakeProphet> and repopularize goto-oriented programming a solution for fast business software development.
17:05:31 <oerjan> CakeProphet: the c is for color, i think
17:07:15 <oerjan> isn't come from the essence of aspect-oriented programming, or something ( oerjan doesn't really know the latter )
17:07:23 <CakeProphet> hmmm... what's a language like that missing though. OH I KNOW. MONADS. FUCK YEAH.
17:07:46 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I'm pretty sure aspect oriented programming is just vaporware
17:08:01 <CakeProphet> come from is "reactive" programming or event-driven
17:08:50 <CakeProphet> so you could just have some crazy type system, and equally crazy pattern matching syntax to specify come from events.
17:09:08 <CakeProphet> that I don't feel like thinking about right now.
17:09:19 <oerjan> CakeProphet: come to think of it haven't heard it mentioned recently - did the fad just die?
17:09:41 <CakeProphet> I think it's been dead for a few years now. It didn't last long.
17:10:58 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i'm pretty sure you could make a goto monad transformer. someone probably did. a vague bell rings about "labels"
17:12:11 <CakeProphet> it'd be like ST/IO ( Map String (ST/IO)) -- very rough type signature to illustrate idea
17:12:51 <oerjan> hm or maybe you can just make it a combinator in any continuation monad...
17:13:13 <CakeProphet> oerjan: essentially AOP is just a way to partially declare methods elsewhere, so you can organize code by functionality into different source files but have it all run together when compiled.
17:13:19 <alise> <CakeProphet> oerjan: I'm pretty sure aspect oriented programming is just vaporware
17:13:30 <alise> aspect oriented programming just lets you:
17:13:35 <alise> - run some code before a function
17:13:36 <alise> - run some code after a function
17:13:54 <alise> it basically lets you do a lot of what redefining a method would do except copy-paste.
17:13:57 <alise> it's a bit naff though.
17:14:02 <CakeProphet> yeah... I made a plugin system in Python that worked like that.
17:14:20 <alise> it wasn't called AOP back then though
17:14:23 <alise> and they did it properly
17:15:50 <oerjan> alise: reinventing lisp is a time-honored tradition, right?
17:16:03 <alise> oerjan: there's even a law about it!
17:16:12 <alise> CakeProphet: *Emacs, and Emacs doesn't use Common Lisp
17:16:32 <CakeProphet> right, but it does AOP-like stuff is what I meant.
17:16:38 <oerjan> well i'm a bit green, but i guess someone must have spun up a law yeah
17:17:22 * alise swats oerjan -------------###
17:17:30 <alise> the swatter returns! now with a longer handle!
17:17:37 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:17:37 <alise> and it's MINE! all MI--
17:17:41 * alise snaps off the longer handle by mistake
17:17:44 <alise> Oops, it's normal length now.
17:18:29 <CakeProphet> what about a programming language that you program by playing a text-based game.
17:19:09 <CakeProphet> "You put on your rob and wizard cap" declares an int or something
17:19:52 <CakeProphet> or actually that puts it on the stack. You have to allocate it first by going to the shop and buying it. :)
17:20:04 <Sgeo_> The LambdaMOO 'nopoly board is gone!
17:20:09 <Sgeo_> There was a hotel in there!
17:20:11 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TRANSCRIPT has a dead link :(
17:20:12 <alise> rob and wizard cap
17:20:16 <alise> Rob, and wizard cap.
17:21:00 <CakeProphet> which is probably indicated by my programming language ideas at the moment.
17:21:58 <CakeProphet> but yeah equipment=memory... doing things are basic operations. Do stuff with equipment is like calling a function with the values as parameters. :)
17:22:02 <alise> i have an island for a programming language that is also an island for a cheese
17:22:08 <alise> by island, i mean idea
17:22:16 <CakeProphet> I think going through dungeons would specify classes.
17:22:17 <Sgeo_> Portable rooms can go on the Geography shelf
17:22:28 <CakeProphet> there's a lot to define... so you've got to make it a quest.
17:22:49 <CakeProphet> and then when you get to end and slay the dungeon boss you get the equipment that represents your data structure. :)
17:22:54 <oerjan> CakeProphet: http://web.archive.org/web/20071011215948/www.corknut.org/code/transcript/samples/helloworld.txt
17:25:13 <CakeProphet> I guess technically a text-based game is already an interactive programming language with a very limited instruction set
17:25:33 <CakeProphet> but your commands change state and produce IO.
17:28:14 <AnMaster> <oerjan> <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, does this beep you? <-- i am pretty sure beeps are one of the things censored by channel mode +c <-- sure, but that was a plain highlight
17:28:26 <AnMaster> so +c or not was completely irrelevant
17:29:05 <oerjan> i somehow thought you had tried to put a beep in there
17:29:11 <alise> "The specifics of this language (up to version 4.4.0) are the absence of loops as such. This is excusable - after all, gnuplot is not a general-purpose language but a graph plotting software. A loop can be simulated by creating a separate file with loop body, which then should be "read" to start the loop and "reread" for each iteration."
17:29:34 <alise> "Haskell is nowhere near an esoteric or unpopular language"
17:29:37 <alise> Ah, so nice to read those words.
17:33:47 <AnMaster> alise, they added loops in 4.4.0?
17:34:03 <alise> to... restart reading it :D
17:34:09 <alise> reread is just like import
17:34:13 <alise> except it will load a file twice
17:34:39 <AnMaster> alise, it was "(up to version 4.4.0)" that made me think that either a) "added after that" or b) "last version at time of that being written"
17:36:41 <AnMaster> alise, btw what is your opinion on lego? With that I don't mean the cooperation or such. I mean the "idea world" lego, if you see what I mean. Good or bad?
17:36:58 <alise> It's... of course lego is good...
17:37:05 <alise> Why on earth would it be bad
17:37:07 <AnMaster> alise, so what about bacon lego
17:38:23 <AnMaster> it would obviously need to be fried so it is stiff.
17:38:25 <oerjan> <relet> just invent HQ9+R <-- hm i sense an item for the List of Ideas
17:38:50 <Sgeo_> alise, your player object physically exists
17:39:07 <AnMaster> hm I think I broke alise's mind there
17:39:12 <oerjan> except my idea is a language like HQ9+ where the commands are all _bugs_ of some kind
17:39:26 <Sgeo_> Time now: 9:37 a.m. Monday 05/31/10
17:39:26 <Sgeo_> Last login: 7:14 p.m. Monday 01/18/38
17:39:26 <Sgeo_> Last logout: 12:00 a.m. Monday 05/31/10
17:39:36 <alise> B is a no-operation, but occasionally is a bug whereby it runs a brainfuck interpreter
17:39:39 <oerjan> alise: no it should _not_ be an extension of HQ9+
17:39:51 <oerjan> well N could be null pointer dereferencing
17:39:58 <alise> http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Fibonacci_numbers what has this got to do with psychology
17:40:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, ick has that random bug
17:40:29 <AnMaster> can be disabled with -b, love that
17:40:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: i know, i did it for the unlambda interpreter
17:41:03 <Sgeo_> alise, if you're not logging in now, I'm going to go watch some SG-2
17:41:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm I wonder if you could make such a language where you could actually use the bugs to compute something
17:41:31 <alise> Sgeo_: i'm looking in
17:41:31 <relet> it must be turing complete, of course.
17:41:43 <alise> relet: you must have that + increases the accumulator
17:42:00 <oerjan> relet: um that would require it to have actual _useful_ commands
17:42:08 <alise> oerjan: or just very good interaction of death
17:42:12 <alise> INTERACTION OF DEATHS
17:42:30 <relet> no, just deterministic enough to produce something useful after being repeated long enough
17:42:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: BCDPRS then...
17:42:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I = Illegal instruction
17:43:33 <relet> every instruction could at least put its corresponding error code on the stack.
17:43:40 <alise> fib =: (-&2 +&$: <:) ^: (1&<) ;; fibonacci in J
17:43:45 <alise> fib =: (-&2 +&$: <:) ^: (1&<) M. ;; memosising fibonacci in J
17:43:46 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<4>f?(_o)o.?] [f(_n)0=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)a.?(_n)1=(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*]}
17:43:48 <relet> after manipulating it in some way
17:43:57 <AnMaster> relet, most of these would be fatal to the intperter
17:44:14 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, a lot of esolangs are
17:44:18 <relet> AnMaster: write an interpreter that survives the race
17:44:51 <AnMaster> relet, how would that help with I?
17:44:59 <alise> AnMaster: catch the signal!
17:45:17 <relet> or fork before every page fault
17:45:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh wait, what about M for Memory Leak
17:45:38 <alise> (1 1; 1 0)^(n-1) = (F(n) F(n-1); F(n-1) F(n-2)), we know this
17:45:39 <alise> NB. mm is matrix multiplication
17:45:39 <alise> NB. mp is a general function to raise an object x to an integer power y
17:45:39 <alise> NB. using the repeated squaring algorithm
17:45:39 <alise> NB. (it can use any named multiplication function in place of 'mm')
17:45:41 <alise> mp =: 4 : 'mm / ( mm ~^: (I.|.#: y ) x)'
17:45:43 <alise> NB. fib n raises the 2x2 matrix (1,1)(1,0) to the n-1 power and returns the top left value
17:45:45 <alise> fib =: {.&,&((2 2$1x 1 1 0)&mp&<:)
17:45:47 <alise> pretty literal thinking in implementatio nthere
17:45:48 <alise> *implementation there
17:45:53 <alise> AnMaster: comment in J
17:45:59 <alise> the whole page is just tons of ways to do fibonacci in J :D
17:46:07 <alise> fib =: {:&([+/\@|.@]^:[1x 0"0) NB. this is called the imperative loop version
17:46:11 <alise> sure looks like an imperative loop to me!
17:46:18 <alise> or as my brain always expands it, "Note by"
17:46:46 <alise> PLEASE NOT NB. THIS IS AN INTERCAL/J POLYGLOT
17:46:47 <AnMaster> hm where is ais when you need him
17:47:13 <AnMaster> alise, does intercal handle the NOT even when leading part of the word? or?
17:47:24 <alise> that's why PLEASE NOTE works
17:47:31 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<4>(_f)f.?(_o)o.?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)a.?(_n)1=(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*]}
17:47:36 <AnMaster> alise, PLEASE NOTA BENE would also work
17:47:45 <alise> AnMaster: no because that's not a J comment
17:47:47 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<4>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)a.?(_n)1=(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*]}
17:47:48 <Sgeo_> How does PLEASE NOT not confuse J?
17:47:55 <EgoBot> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc'
17:47:55 <alise> Sgeo_: not at all if you define PLEASE and NOT!
17:47:58 <AnMaster> alise, well obviously not for J, I meant for intercal in genera
17:48:13 <EgoBot> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc'
17:48:21 <Sgeo_> alise, your body is still in Limbo
17:48:25 <pikhq> Oh yeah; that's in C++, isn't it?
17:48:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, chances are std::[a-z_]+ is C++ ;P
17:49:04 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you're grammar are fines
17:49:11 <alise> huh why can't I get PLEASE NOT working
17:49:21 <alise> if. 2 >: y do. 1<.y else.
17:49:21 <alise> if. y = 2*n=.<.y%2
17:49:21 <alise> do. (n+1) -&*:&fib n-1
17:49:21 <alise> else. (n+1) +&*:&fib n end.
17:49:26 <alise> Well that looks rather more conventional.
17:49:34 <alise> haha i has binet's formula
17:49:37 <AnMaster> alise, anyway would PLEASE NOT NB really work in J?
17:49:42 <alise> NB. Although J does not have arbitrary precision floating point numbers,
17:49:42 <alise> NB. it makes it possible to calculate this precisely by defining
17:49:42 <alise> NB. multiplication in ring extensions of Z and Q.
17:49:49 <alise> and yes, if you can get PLEASE NOT working
17:49:56 <alise> which I'm trying to do and suffering puzzling difficulty
17:50:03 <AnMaster> alise, what do you mean "*NB"?
17:50:26 <alise> PLEASE NOT NB. LOL DEATH BUTTS
17:50:30 <oerjan> i presume that's J's actual comment iniator
17:50:35 <alise> AnMaster: "NB." is the comment indicator, not "NB".
17:50:36 <AnMaster> alise, that won't be valid intercal though
17:50:43 <alise> AnMaster: well that's the challenge of a polyglot isn't it...
17:51:07 <oerjan> alise: PLEASE NOT NB. is a bit ungrammatical
17:51:07 <alise> could we make this valid intercal as the first line:
17:51:10 <alise> x =: monad define :
17:51:27 <AnMaster> alise, was that question to me?
17:52:01 <alise> ais is probably sleeping now
17:52:37 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<4>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)a.?(_n)1=(_x)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*^]}
17:52:57 <alise> AnMaster: he was awake at 6am yesterday
17:53:00 <alise> and said he'd sleep in the day
17:53:12 <alise> it /is/ a holiday...
17:53:19 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<10>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)a.?(_n)1=(_x)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*^]}
17:53:52 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<100>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)a.?(_n)1=(_x)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*^]}
17:53:58 <oerjan> CakeProphet: er you realize 4! is 24 not 10
17:54:56 <alise> CakeProphet: you invented the triangular numbers
17:55:20 <alise> CakeProphet: you could also have just written n(n+1) / 2
17:55:30 <alise> AnMaster: not as much as brainfuck
17:55:41 <alise> just rearrange the code P
17:56:13 <alise> intercal is quite easy to read apart from those hideous oneliners
17:56:26 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<10>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)m.?(_n)1=(_x)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*^]}
17:56:39 <AnMaster> alise, intercal commonly seems to consist of a number of one liners + a bit of flow control
17:56:50 <oerjan> alise: is DON'T a legal J identifier? it may be easier to start with that
17:57:21 <oerjan> since then at least INTERCAL will skip the line
17:57:27 <AnMaster> alise, wait, can you end a statement in J without ending the line
17:57:28 <alise> AnMaster: true that's just a modern abomination
17:57:32 <alise> oerjan's intercal isn't like that!
17:57:33 <AnMaster> you don't need please on the first line
17:57:44 <alise> oerjan: well DON'T ' will work
17:57:49 <AnMaster> just as long as you have a valid PLEASE ratio
17:57:54 <alise> oerjan: can't assign to that ofc
17:58:21 <alise> yeah that's how it draws nested expressions
17:58:25 <alise> I just have no idea how that... did... anything
17:58:28 <alise> That... shouldn't work
17:58:44 <alise> it isn't assigning anything either
17:58:55 <alise> AnMaster: ok now the problem is that =: has infinite binding basically
17:58:56 <oerjan> alise: hm intercal isn't really line oriented, or is it?
17:58:56 <AnMaster> alise, anyway my point is you can define NOT before you define please
17:58:58 <alise> and I can't put a ( in front of it can I
17:59:02 <alise> oerjan: it isn't, whitespace is irrelevant
17:59:05 <alise> even in between words
17:59:12 <AnMaster> alise, and the first line doesn't need to be PLEASE
17:59:28 <alise> AnMaster: ah, so NOT foo will work in intercal?
17:59:32 <alise> as long as you have sufficient pleases later
17:59:49 <oerjan> alise: no, NOT is not a legal start of statement iirc
17:59:51 <AnMaster> alise, it could require DO NOT
18:00:24 <alise> And yes, I always use lewd identifiers to spot them easily when testing. :P
18:00:49 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oktolol.
18:01:13 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<10>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)m.?(_n)1=(_x)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*^]}
18:01:29 <alise> so NOT has to be non-0 :D
18:01:32 <CakeProphet> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_f)F!<4>(_f)f.?(_o)(on).?]} {F[f(_n)1=(_a)A!(_n)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=/(_x)(_n)*(_x)*(_a)m.?(_n)1=(_x)*<1>(_a)s.?(_x)1=\(_n)*^]}
18:01:44 <AnMaster> alise, did you clear the earlier definitions?
18:01:49 <alise> AnMaster: redefinition is allowed
18:01:58 <alise> i'm not entirely sure this isn't just a REPL sideeffect
18:02:05 <CakeProphet> the OO in Glass actually makes it harder to read... there's a lot of stack-based boiler plate stuff
18:02:09 <AnMaster> alise, well sure, but I meant it might have affected results
18:02:27 -!- oktolol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:02:36 <alise> what is it with J.
18:02:52 <alise> AnMaster: works even w/o NOT being defined
18:03:04 <alise> hmm... /me has idea
18:03:23 <AnMaster> alise, btw make this polygot a polygot quine
18:03:34 <alise> just a matter of defining please now
18:03:36 <alise> and I have an idea for that
18:03:52 <alise> DO NOT PLEASE =: works
18:04:04 <AnMaster> alise, that doesn't count as a please line of course
18:04:06 <oerjan> alise: idea. you will have trouble defining PLEASE i think, since it will start an INTERCAL statement there. but you can define PLE and ASE, say.
18:04:26 <alise> you can have all your comment lines non-please
18:04:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh so comments don't end at end of line? Right
18:04:34 <alise> as long as other lines are non please
18:04:38 <alise> AnMaster: whitespace is completely irrelevant
18:04:43 <alise> DONOTPLEASE is equiv.
18:04:48 <alise> <alise> as long as other lines are non please
18:04:50 <alise> are please, rather
18:05:07 <oerjan> alise: i think DO NOT PLEASE is two statements DO NOT and PLEASE
18:05:27 <oerjan> i'm not sure of course
18:06:07 <alise> but what i mean is
18:06:14 <AnMaster> I feel that INTERCAL should not just check please ratio, it should also check that the distribution of the PLEASE over the file is fairly even
18:06:15 <alise> is this acceptable?
18:06:21 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
18:06:49 <oerjan> alise: i doubt that the PLEASE ratio ignores comments, after all it is runtime dependent whether a statement _is_ a comment
18:07:15 <oerjan> (statements can be reinstated)
18:07:19 <alise> oerjan: but if your actual code is sufficiently ass-kissing, is it okay to be rude about comments?
18:07:45 -!- hiato has joined.
18:08:11 <oerjan> alise: can't you define things so both DO NOT and PLEASE DO NOT work?
18:08:25 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, wth does that buzz word even mean?
18:08:31 <alise> defining PLE and ASE won't work
18:08:39 <alise> PLE ASE works doesn't it
18:08:42 <alise> so I /can/ define PLE and ASE
18:09:01 <AnMaster> alise, if you can then do meta-programming to combine those?
18:09:04 <alise> great! I got it working
18:09:16 <alise> then "PLE ASE stuff" just returns it boxed
18:09:25 <alise> AnMaster: remember: whitespace doesn't matter
18:09:26 <oerjan> alise: also note that you can have as many J lines _not_ containing a DO or PLEASE as you want inside an INTERCAL comment
18:09:40 <AnMaster> alise, and how do you plan to make PLEASE work? Just by putting DO NOT NB. PLEASE Foo ?
18:10:05 <oerjan> that should surely work
18:10:09 <alise> makes a j comment and lets intercal see it
18:10:20 <alise> oh so I don't even /need/ to define PLE and ASE
18:10:22 <CakeProphet> I don't think I've ever made a Glass program that used the constructor method
18:10:34 <alise> I still need PLEASE DO NOT
18:10:53 <AnMaster> alise, just put that in NB every time?
18:11:03 <oerjan> alise: wait, i think you can make _everything_ inside each other's comments
18:11:09 <AnMaster> alise, the tricky thing will be making this a quine in both language
18:11:21 <alise> DO NOT does nothing to numbers
18:11:22 <oerjan> NB. PLEASE ...here is running intercal...
18:11:32 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...INTERCAL...
18:11:32 <alise> DO NOT ...J code...
18:11:39 <oerjan> NB. PLEASE ...here is running intercal... DO NOT
18:11:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I'm pretty sure, the only tricky part is the initial mess around at the start
18:11:51 <alise> oerjan: this is amazing
18:11:51 <AnMaster> so you can hide NB. for intercal
18:12:09 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE intercal
18:12:21 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE dsofjsdo h98r
18:12:27 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE #';"$)(*!&"
18:12:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is DO NOT | PLEASE in intercal I think
18:13:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in different statements
18:13:43 <alise> DO NOT ('flatulence' (1!:2) 2)
18:13:44 <alise> |domain error: NOT
18:13:44 <alise> | DO NOT('flatulence'(1!:2)2)
18:13:55 <alise> because NOT takes numbers...
18:14:04 <alise> hmm, I'll have to see if I can make DO NOT just spit its output back
18:14:14 <CakeProphet> rofl... I just Facebook'd my Glass program. None of my friends are CS... I hope they don't think that's what all programming languages look like. :P
18:14:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, how do you plan to make a quine in both languages out of this?
18:15:02 <alise> DO NOT #('flatulence' (1!:2) 2)
18:15:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: um i'm not planning it, but surely once you have a way of intertwining arbitrary code in both languages the rest is just technicalities :D
18:15:23 <alise> AnMaster: fixed point theorem Q.E.D.
18:16:12 <Sgeo_> alise, I'm going to go watch SG-1
18:16:13 <oerjan> alise: also apart from the first lines it is better to have DO NOT at the _end_ of the INTERCAL lines, then you have almost no restriction on the J on the following line
18:16:14 <AnMaster> alise, wait, how does that apply to this?
18:16:24 <AnMaster> alise, anyway text IO is tricky in intercal
18:16:28 <alise> AnMaster: fixed point theorem guarantees quines
18:16:41 <alise> given textual output
18:16:52 <alise> or, even, outputting its source in encoded roman numerals.
18:16:53 <alise> PLE ASE DO NOT DO =: +
18:16:53 <alise> PLE ASE DO NOT NOT =: +
18:16:53 <alise> DO NOT #('Hello, world!' (1!:2) 2)
18:16:55 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...some intercal code...
18:16:58 <oerjan> and then switching back is just starting a line with NB. PLEASE or so
18:16:59 <alise> valid J and, I think, valid intercal.
18:17:07 <AnMaster> alise, is that true for polygots too?
18:17:26 <AnMaster> could there not be a polygot of two languages such that no quine exist
18:17:27 <alise> AnMaster: polyglots are just a restricted common subset of both languages.
18:17:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, yes, you construct quines in the same way for a polyglot.
18:17:33 <alise> only pathological ones
18:17:44 <alise> you can always construct another language to polyglot it with
18:17:46 <alise> that doesn't impede it
18:17:48 <alise> such as the NOP language
18:18:34 <pikhq> That is, you store a string containing (part of) the program and a function to output that string in such a way that you get the program out.
18:18:46 <alise> http://pastie.org/985974.txt?key=gd8gxkx2jxokgj26drzg oh yeah
18:18:55 <AnMaster> alise, let language X be such that on + it always output the input file, but at _ it outputs a space. Let language Y be such that + outputs a space, but _ outputs the input file
18:19:00 <alise> and the outputting returns the string it outputs
18:19:01 <AnMaster> alise, I doubt you could make a quine of those
18:19:03 <alise> which is why we get 13
18:19:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: unless the languages are such that there is a strong restriction on what kinds of ordinary programs you can combine into a polyglot, then there should surely be a quine polyglot
18:19:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Requires TC-ness.
18:19:18 <alise> AnMaster: it's not TC
18:19:26 <alise> and X+Y doesn't have full textual output
18:19:35 <CakeProphet> you know it would be cool to make an esolang that had multiple interpreters running on the game gun
18:20:15 <alise> isn't that just wierd
18:21:23 <oerjan> alise: did you not notice my repeatedly pointing that you _don't_ need DO NOT at the start of every J line, just put it at the end of INTERCAL lines
18:21:38 <alise> oerjan: indeed but that's boring... also, what do you mean?
18:21:43 <alise> that can't work...
18:21:47 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...some intercal code...
18:21:52 <alise> so we can't put any J in there
18:21:59 <alise> Qed, pronounced qwed.
18:22:17 <oerjan> alise: DO NOT should be at the _end_ of intercal lines, not the beginning
18:22:22 <CakeProphet> brainfuck is a pretty easy polyglot language. :)
18:22:30 <oerjan> to "turn off" intercal
18:22:32 <alise> oerjan: then how do we hide it from J?
18:22:44 <oerjan> alise: NB. PLEASE at the start
18:22:53 <CakeProphet> alise: in an open relationship you're not supposed to hide anything. :P
18:22:54 <alise> so it can't go at the end of intercal lines
18:22:57 <alise> oerjan: um that's the same thing
18:23:04 <CakeProphet> don't hide things from J... be open about what you're doing with INTERCAL
18:23:06 <alise> i guess it's easier for j this way
18:23:20 <oerjan> alise: no, because the way you do it you cannot have arbitrary J on the _next_ line
18:23:25 <alise> oerjan: you still need DO NOT in front of intercal lines
18:23:33 <CakeProphet> alise: sometimes honesty is the best policy. It'll be much easier for J
18:23:45 <oerjan> alise: oh NB. is not legal to start a J line?
18:24:03 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...some intercal code... PLEASE DO NOT
18:24:03 <alise> 'Hello, world!' (1!:2) 2
18:24:03 <alise> DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...some intercal code... PLEASE DO NOT
18:24:08 <alise> oerjan: just not an intercal line :-)
18:24:38 <oerjan> alise: intercal isn't line based, so in NB. PLEASE the actual intercal statement doesn't start until the PLEASE
18:24:47 <alise> ok, the above works
18:24:52 <alise> but there'll be a LOT of DO NOTs
18:24:56 <alise> so the intercal code better be very polite
18:25:13 <oerjan> alise: you can use PLEASE NOT as well, you know
18:25:50 <oerjan> there's one of the "obvious" possibilities that is illegal, i vaguely recall
18:25:58 <alise> oerjan: no because i dropped the PLE ASE definitions from j :D
18:26:04 <alise> DON'T would be bad
18:26:23 <oerjan> alise: um i mean at the end of INTERCAL lines, where J won't even see them
18:26:23 <alise> PLE ASE DO NOT DO =: +
18:26:23 <alise> PLE ASE DO NOT NOT =: +
18:26:23 <alise> PLE ASE DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...some intercal code... DO NOT
18:26:24 <alise> 'Hello, world!' (1!:2) 2
18:26:26 <alise> PLE ASE DO NOT NB. PLEASE ...some intercal code... DO NOT
18:26:29 <alise> is this polite enough? too polite?
18:26:33 <alise> oerjan: i did that but it's still a lot of do nots...
18:27:02 <oerjan> alise: you cannot escape putting DO NOT's or PLEASE DON'Ts whenever you switch back to J
18:27:18 <alise> i'm only asking about politeness
18:27:37 <oerjan> i don't recall. 1/4 or something like that
18:27:50 <CakeProphet> this conversation makes me think of two very demanding women I know.
18:28:39 <alise> oerjan: the maximum is pretty high right?
18:28:41 <alise> it accepts ass-kissing
18:29:02 <oklopol> CakeProphet: yeah girls yell PLEASE DON
18:29:35 <oerjan> alise: no, it's a fairly narrow bound.
18:29:41 <alise> oerjan: intercal is a bitch :D
18:29:58 <oerjan> i'm not sure if 1/4 is the upper bound or if 1/4 is a safe average with 1/3 the upper bound
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18:30:43 <alise> i meant the lower bound
18:30:48 <alise> it complains if you say PLEASE too much
18:30:54 <alise> oerjan: so uh do you know an intercal hello world :D
18:31:02 <alise> printing a nice roman numeral is acceptable :D
18:31:36 <oerjan> alise: also did you say DO NOT was a legal, if vacuous J statement?
18:31:39 <alise> "an INTERCAL de-obfuscator" --C-INTERCAL's Debian summary
18:31:46 <alise> oerjan: iff we do this first:
18:31:56 <alise> well i guess if we do other things first too but they'd be less obvious
18:32:02 <alise> (and btw i have no idea why that assignment works)
18:32:04 <oerjan> alise: well i'm thinking about _as_ the first line
18:32:07 <alise> (without DO or NOT being previously assigned)
18:32:31 <oerjan> alise: what is the minimum thing starting with DO NOT which is a legal, fairly vacuous J statement?
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18:33:12 <oerjan> ok. then you can start the file with that. and you don't even need to _use_ the definitions
18:33:43 <Sgeo_> alise, I'm going to go watch SG-1
18:33:51 <alise> you mean put all the intercal on one line?
18:33:54 <alise> that's totally cheating dude.
18:34:08 <alise> you're horrible for thinking of that :<
18:34:22 <oerjan> or rather, not _all_ the intercal
18:34:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:34:58 <oerjan> but each intercal line would be of the form NB. PLEASE ... DO NOT or NB. DO ... DO NOT
18:35:40 <oerjan> (half of each would give 1/4 politeness, i should think)
18:36:20 <alise> wait, how does intercal accept the NB.?
18:36:22 <alise> oh, because of the DO NOT
18:36:43 <oerjan> well you also have labels, so there would be things like NB. (3000) PLEASE ... DO NOT
18:37:48 <alise> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476766 The fools! Mozilla added a Chinese government CA certificate!
18:38:04 <alise> Yes, because the one person we can trust to be honest about claiming to be a certain entity on the motherfucking INTERNET is the CHINESE GOVERNMENT.
18:38:57 <oerjan> the obvious compromise would be to allow it only for .cn domains...
18:39:19 <oerjan> it would be rather ridiculous not to trust the chinese government for _that_
18:39:31 <relet> well, or any less than the other governments. ;)
18:40:22 <alise> I don't think I'd let _anything_ to do with the Chinese government anywhere near any of my software.
18:40:29 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:40:36 <alise> "Please remove this root CA! We Chinese users don't trust CNNIC.
18:40:36 <alise> Liu Yan said: 2)CNNIC is not a Chinese Government organization.
18:40:36 <alise> He is cheating! CNNIC is an infamous organ of the Chinese Communist government
18:40:36 <alise> to monitor and control the Internet in China. For secrete reasons they even
18:40:36 <alise> distributed spyware by making advantage of their administration privilege:"
18:40:38 <oerjan> alise: like, most of your hardware anyway ;D
18:40:42 <alise> ^ Oh look at that.
18:40:50 <alise> oerjan: I think computer hardware is mostly made in Taiwan and the like.
18:40:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:41:10 <alise> pikhq: The Chinese government has a root certificate in Mozilla.
18:41:17 <alise> [[Please remove this root CA! We Chinese users don't trust CNNIC.
18:41:17 <alise> Liu Yan said: 2)CNNIC is not a Chinese Government organization.
18:41:17 <alise> He is cheating! CNNIC is an infamous organ of the Chinese Communist government
18:41:17 <alise> to monitor and control the Internet in China. For secrete reasons they even
18:41:17 <alise> distributed spyware by making advantage of their administration privilege:]]
18:41:24 <alise> [[They're one of the tools used by the CCP government to censor the Internet
18:41:24 <alise> users. If CNNIC root certificate is added by default as Builtin Object, they
18:41:24 <alise> can forge verified gmail certificates to cheat the Chinese users by using MITM
18:41:24 <alise> attack against the SSL protocol.]]
18:41:38 <oerjan> alise: also, isn't this old news. i am sure i saw it on reddit months ago.
18:41:42 <alise> oerjan: who knows.
18:42:05 <alise> CNNIC produces one of the best-known malwares in China: the Chinese-Language-Surfing Official Edition(中文上网官方版软件). The software is frequently bundled with other adware/sharewares. It was declared malware by Beijing Network Industry Association(北京市网络行业协会)[9] and San Ji Wu Xian Co Ltd., the company behind 360 Safeguard(360安全卫士), an anti-virus software. San Ji Wu Xian was sued by CNNIC for 150,000 RMB[10][11] and the c
18:42:06 <alise> ourt ruled out favorably towards CNNIC.
18:43:17 <alise> pikhq: Debian has OSSv4!
18:43:36 <alise> p oss4-base - Open Sound System - base package
18:43:47 <pikhq> Also, I mostly grok those bits of Chinese.
18:43:54 <pikhq> I know approximately one word of Chinese. :P
18:45:50 <alise> pikhq: Oh dear, and right after I learn that I find a reason to dislike 4Front intensely.
18:45:52 <alise> http://thieta.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/what-ever-happened-to-xmms-org/
18:46:01 <alise> They sold off xmms.org to a spammer company without asking the XMMS developers.
18:46:09 <alise> "The old XMMS.ORG website, now maintained by Doug Collins, hosts a fake copy of the XMMS website with an added Answers section linking to a fake FAQ created to generate AdSense revenue. There is of course no guarrantee that the code distributed on that domain does not contain malware."
18:48:04 <alise> pikhq: does jack work for general audio stuff?
18:48:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:48:22 <alise> It's real-time, at least, so it would be cool if it did
18:48:25 <alise> AnMaster uses it doesn't he
18:48:30 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:48:45 <alise> "JACK can use ALSA, PortAudio, CoreAudio, FreeBoB, FFADO and OSS as hardware back-ends."
18:48:50 <alise> Huh, I thought JACK could be the endpoint.
18:49:09 <alise> WHY DO ALL SOUND SERVERS EITHER SUCK OR HAVE THE PROPERTY OF BEING DEVELOPED BY AN EVIL COMPANY ;_;
18:50:55 <AnMaster> alise, I only use jack because I need low latency when I do audio stuff on my desktop
18:51:00 <AnMaster> it is a PITA to get it working
18:51:18 <alise> Do you think I could buy OSS v4 off 4Front so that I can use it and sleep soundly at night
18:51:20 <AnMaster> but if you do sound recording it is worth it
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18:51:38 <alise> pikhq_: Internet connection, eh?
18:51:42 <AnMaster> alise, what license? And couldn't you fork it if it went wrong
18:52:00 <alise> AnMaster: Oh, I'd fork it but it wouldn't be developed.
18:52:19 <alise> AnMaster: I just don't want to use anything 4Front controls because they sold the xmms.org domain to spammers without the XMMS devs permission and showed no remorse.
18:52:24 <AnMaster> alise, yeah I can't imagine you lead a project with many devleopers
18:52:28 <alise> So basically they're spammer-enablers.
18:52:33 <pikhq_> It's all "Fuck you, I'm just going to stop now".
18:52:38 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, I could easily pay tons of people just to get on with it, except I have no money.
18:52:44 <alise> That's what CEOs do, right?
18:52:56 <AnMaster> alise, ah I meant lead an open source project where no one is paid
18:53:03 <AnMaster> that requires good people skills you see
18:53:05 <alise> That produces PulseAudio :P
18:53:09 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, like Linus has.
18:53:15 <alise> I guess that's why Linux is unpopular...
18:53:35 <alise> If I lead a project I'd just do it Linus-style, get sent tons of patches and reject most of them because I don't like them, then reject most of the rest because they made a mistake, then rewrite the rest and merge them in.
18:53:42 <AnMaster> alise, well, he has carisma. It can sometimes replace people skills
18:53:44 <alise> Then just flame people who disagree with me.
18:53:55 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, people still use ion3.
18:54:07 <alise> The key to running a successful open source project is being an asshole while producing good code.
18:54:18 <alise> esr: Asshole, but he doesn't even produce good code
18:54:25 <AnMaster> alise, oh yes good code is required too. Charisma is a huge plus.
18:54:25 <alise> rms: I'm not sure he can even program
18:54:31 <alise> Linus: Asshole, good code
18:54:41 <alise> Tuomov: Asshole, haven't read the code but ion3 is quite nice to use
18:54:43 <AnMaster> alise, and charisma, don't forget that
18:54:50 <alise> Suckless guys: *Huge* assholes (see e.g. uriel), brilliant code
18:54:53 <alise> AnMaster: Nope, charisma is optional
18:54:56 <alise> The suckless guys don't have any
18:55:08 <AnMaster> alise, their code is not quite as popular
18:55:22 <alise> Guido van Rossum isn't an asshole, but Python is crap.
18:55:34 <alise> So he's an extreme statistical anomaly: "Nice guy" (I don't really like him), bad code.
18:55:38 <AnMaster> alise, what about Theo de Raat (spelling?)
18:55:45 <alise> AnMaster: Asshole, good code.
18:56:02 <AnMaster> alise, but openbsd is sucky still
18:56:03 <alise> matz: ok matz is an exception because he's just so nice that he makes everyone around him kinda happy
18:56:11 * CakeProphet nice guy. Decent code (when not sleep deprived, which is becoming less frequent these days)
18:56:13 <alise> AnMaster: Certainly not as far as security goes.
18:56:22 <alise> He's infamous for his sheer niceness.
18:56:26 <AnMaster> alise, ah, so matz is like Carrot from Discworld?
18:56:30 <alise> He's a mormon too, probably that has an effect.
18:56:43 <alise> Einstein? He's smart? So he's a bit like (random obscure Discworld character), then.
18:57:14 <AnMaster> alise, carrot is not obscure. Main character
18:57:34 * alise wonders whether xmms2 or MPD is better.
18:57:35 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:57:40 <alise> Probably NEITHER because I didn't write either.
18:58:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:58:04 <AnMaster> alise, for i in *.ogg; do mplayer "$i"; done
18:58:42 <AnMaster> alise, in which way? yes that code is bad, but it is a simplification
18:58:50 <CakeProphet> being an asshole helps you obtain women. But we all know those guys don't get any...
18:59:23 <alise> AnMaster: I like to be able to check which track I'm listening to. If you added the appropriate seds, well, this sure is a complicated shell script to replace perfectly decent software. Furthermore, most of the time I just play everything on a big jumble of shuffle because I basically have ADHD.
18:59:54 <CakeProphet> I'm too picky for shuffle... even with my own collection
18:59:58 <alise> Also, I like to be able to select a specific track to listen to without typing in a long pathname -- which, indeed, even your script wouldn't support
19:00:15 <alise> Also, it's nice to be able to ... you know, your script is pretty much shit so just shut up.
19:00:27 <CakeProphet> I need to get a larger hard drive. My meager 60 gigs is stacked full with music. Only 10 gigs left
19:00:31 <alise> You're doing the thing you so often accuse me of: generalising from a sample of YOU.
19:00:34 <AnMaster> alise, I didn't say it would fit you
19:00:44 <alise> AnMaster: Then don't tell me it!
19:01:04 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: needs more continuation passing style
19:01:18 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, that bash script? or what?
19:01:36 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, wait, 60 GB? how old is that
19:01:56 <alise> PATA is an abomination of a name!
19:02:02 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, yes but even my old PATA was 80 GB
19:02:09 <alise> In which case PATA is acceptable.
19:02:14 <alise> AnMaster: Because fuck you, it's IDE.
19:02:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:02:17 <alise> Nobody called it PATA back then.
19:02:29 <alise> Besides, PATA is even retroactive.
19:02:31 <AnMaster> alise, but PATA for SCSI doesn't make a lot of sense
19:02:34 <alise> If you must be pedantically correct, say ATA.
19:02:52 <alise> Or howsabout not talking about it at all because it sucks :P
19:03:33 <AnMaster> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Integrated Drive Electronics)
19:03:39 <alise> Yes, read the damn page.
19:03:46 <alise> PATA is a retroactive name.
19:03:52 <AnMaster> alise, nothing wrong with that
19:04:14 <AnMaster> alise, do you say "world war one"?
19:04:26 <AnMaster> it wasn't called that until after WWII
19:04:46 <AnMaster> but not in the time between the world wars
19:04:58 <alise> That's a stupid comparison. You're stupid.
19:05:06 <AnMaster> alise, why is it a stupid comparison
19:05:17 <AnMaster> because you can't find a good response to it?
19:05:26 <AnMaster> that is usually the cause when you act like that
19:05:30 <alise> go away from my irc window i did not invite you into this font :|
19:05:41 <alise> AnMaster: Usually, actually, it's just the point where you come up with something so stupid that I realise I shouldn't even bother
19:06:05 <AnMaster> that, or you /parting, is the only way I'm going to go away from your irc window
19:06:16 <AnMaster> well /quit on your side would work too
19:06:18 <alise> Rage against the machine *grrrr*
19:06:22 <alise> We will not back down!
19:07:53 <alise> I am all up-to-date with the hipster garabe
19:08:08 <alise> ((stupid last.fm meme btw... well, last.fm is stupid in itself))
19:08:23 <CakeProphet> ...but it's quality. I don't even give a fuck about hipsters
19:09:37 <alise> I never contradicted any of those words :P
19:10:26 <alise> I wish you could get Foobar200 for Linux (don't say Wine).
19:11:22 <alise> Also what the fuck is it with Quod Libet not even doing gapless playback
19:11:35 <alise> I'd try Aqualung but....... it's fugly
19:11:49 <alise> Deewiant: I said don't say Wine
19:12:03 <alise> Deewiant: Don't say avocado
19:12:10 <alise> Deewiant: Don't say devil's avocado
19:12:13 <alise> Deewiant: Say Wine
19:12:17 <alise> Deewiant: Say Wine
19:16:23 <CakeProphet> alise: but you can use Wine to get Foobar200
19:16:47 <alise> and yes, but only in a shitty form
19:16:52 <alise> native-windows software > the former emulated with wine
19:17:05 <alise> foobar > linux players > wine/foobar
19:18:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:19:29 <alise> i am so pissed off that 4front had to be evil :D
19:19:46 -!- MizardX has quit (Quit: Dead pixels in the sky.).
19:20:36 <alise> http://deadbeef.sourceforge.net/ Oh, this looks good.
19:20:42 <alise> Deewiant: you're shitty :|
19:20:50 <alise> I just feel evil whenever I use wine
19:21:17 <alise> MAYBE I'LL JUST USE KJOFOL.
19:21:53 <AnMaster> alise, hm does vlc or mplayer give you gapless playback?
19:22:02 <AnMaster> just for debugging the issue I mean
19:22:03 <alise> "mplayer x; mplayer y" definitely not
19:22:06 <alise> I think mplayer x y has a gap
19:22:09 <alise> while it loads the file
19:22:12 <alise> AnMaster: it's def. quod libet
19:22:14 <alise> most players aren't gapless
19:22:17 <AnMaster> alise, ah I thought you meant stuttering
19:22:28 <alise> AnMaster: gapless = track x finishes, track y is already buffered and so streams immediately
19:22:31 <alise> segues are preserved
19:23:17 <AnMaster> alise, at least when playing back from cd with 0 gap between tracks
19:23:21 <alise> AnMaster: dunno. vlc is not really a good music manager though :P
19:23:38 <alise> i don't know if rhythmbox does but i don't like the progam
19:23:48 <AnMaster> alise, oh I see, I found it quite okay
19:24:01 <alise> it has some stupid ubuntu one cloud music storage thing integrated now
19:24:12 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:24:17 <AnMaster> alise, even on non-ubuntu distros?
19:24:19 <alise> i don't care I like trusting my players :P
19:24:21 <alise> AnMaster: well, no.
19:24:32 <alise> anyway i just don't like the ui
19:24:49 <AnMaster> I found rythmbox to be quite reasonable in jaunty at least
19:24:49 <alise> IMO something like mpd or xmms2 is definitely the "future" technologically
19:25:04 <alise> having the actual track-browser-adder-editor-deleter-switcher thing /do the actual audio commands/ is... ludicrous
19:25:07 <alise> from an architectural perspective
19:25:22 <alise> what if you want multiple clients, say over a network? what about multiple interfaces, for different purposes? a web interface, say?
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19:25:29 <AnMaster> alise, isn't mpd just a server?
19:25:31 <alise> GUI libraries aren't all that reliable sometimes, too...
19:25:35 <alise> AnMaster: Yes; and xmms2 as well.
19:25:47 <AnMaster> alise, which GUIs do you use for them?
19:25:55 <alise> They maintain the music library and do playing/shuffling/etc, and you can use any client you want.
19:26:01 <alise> AnMaster: I don't know -- I'm not sure they have decent clients!
19:26:13 <alise> I tried to write my own mpd client a while back which suggests to me I was dissatisfied with the existing crop.
19:26:28 <alise> Wait! There's that -- what was it called -- that nick guy made it
19:26:36 <alise> Corn. A lovely name...
19:26:42 <alise> Makes me think of feet.
19:26:55 <alise> http://incise.org/corn.html
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19:27:08 <AnMaster> alise, corn makes me think of... corn
19:27:14 <alise> - does it do gapless??
19:27:20 <alise> AnMaster: yeah but i had corns on my feet at one point so
19:27:32 <AnMaster> alise, I see. I had shoes more often
19:27:35 <alise> actually i think they're still there, they've just sort of died... gross
19:27:48 <alise> "I'M DRESSED ENTIRELY IN CEREAL. HI."
19:28:07 <AnMaster> alise, I was thinking of the corn you find at fields in the country
19:28:24 <AnMaster> alise, not as processed cereal
19:28:41 <AnMaster> alise, so it is some disease as well? or what?
19:28:52 <alise> AnMaster: corns are just like... I don't even know what they are, just hard skin things on your feet
19:29:07 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callus#Corns
19:29:07 <AnMaster> alise, isn't cereal the thing in a box saying "breakfast cereal"?
19:29:09 <alise> Callus of dead skin.
19:29:14 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but also the crops
19:30:32 <alise> Maybe I'll try Aqualung, with the plain skin it doesn't look *too* bad: http://aqualung.factorial.hu/screenshots/plain.png
19:31:23 <AnMaster> alise, reminds me of windowmaker
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19:31:46 <alise> Here's the fugly default skin: http://aqualung.factorial.hu/screenshots/default.png
19:31:51 <alise> Looks like Acorn RISC OS, with that background pattern.
19:31:55 <alise> And that antialiasing.
19:32:24 <AnMaster> alise, or one step further: marbelus marvel
19:32:28 <alise> `addquote <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
19:32:32 <alise> I don't know if addquote works
19:32:55 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, I like "marbelus marvel"
19:33:05 <alise> Sounds like a bad comic character.
19:33:20 <alise> AnMaster: Here! You! Be my Richard Stallman:
19:33:24 <AnMaster> wait it is spelled marvellous... so "mabellous mavel"
19:33:50 <alise> AnMaster: Is it immoral to use an open-source product by a company if one of that company's developers, approvedly, sold the XMMS.org domain to spammers?
19:33:54 <AnMaster> alise, what do you mean "Be my Richard Stallman:"
19:33:56 <alise> AnMaster: I need guidance, O Wise One.
19:34:05 <alise> AnMaster: Well, that virtual rms program that complains about non-free packages.
19:34:15 <AnMaster> alise, who developed that product? Community?
19:34:15 <alise> AnMaster: You're ever-so-slightly more intelligent than a simple program, so you can handle this more complex question.
19:34:21 <alise> AnMaster: It's OSSv4, by 4Front.
19:34:30 <alise> It was developed by the company.
19:34:35 <alise> It's in Debian and all.
19:34:42 <AnMaster> alise, so not much by external contributors?
19:34:52 <AnMaster> alise, I never much liked xmms
19:34:55 <alise> The product is perfectly fine, and I assume the developers on that product.
19:34:58 <alise> But it gives me a bad taste.
19:35:01 <alise> AnMaster: So what? The developers are nice guys.
19:35:03 <pikhq> It has a bizarre history.
19:35:10 <alise> http://thieta.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/what-ever-happened-to-xmms-org/
19:35:22 <alise> That all changed a couple of weeks ago when the XMMS.org webserver admin received a email from 4Front CEO Dev Mazumdar, stating that he had sold the domain to a company and wanted a full webpage dump. Needless to say, that was pretty surprising! We immediately responded that we where interested in taking over the domain instead, since a lot of us where still actively using it for email and personal webspace. The reply was We invested a lot of money into X
19:35:22 <alise> MMS development, which is an interesting reply on all accounts. Quickly after that the domain was moved and we barely had time to move all our accounts away from the addresses, Dev told us that we should just use xmms.se and xmms2.org instead.
19:35:24 <alise> That list of domains are pretty interesting, note the zinf.org in the end, its another open source media player, that has been mostly abandoned as well. It took us a while, but finally we spotted something odd on both goftp.com and zinf.org, linked from the first page there is a new button called Answers if you follow it you end up on http://www.zinf.org/qna, I bet the original zinf site didnt have that on there. So far nothing like this has been
19:35:25 <AnMaster> alise, alsa + jack works for me
19:35:29 <alise> added to the xmms.org site, but I guess its just a matter of time. Buying these sites just seems to be a way to drive his ad revenue.
19:35:31 <alise> Recent digging also shows that the same guy have registered xmms3.org and xmms3.com as well!
19:35:33 <alise> I must say that I dont really believe that this company will restart development of XMMS or pay any money to 4Front for continue the development. I really hope that Dev lied to us directly about it, otherwise he is pretty dense.
19:35:37 <pikhq> Lessee. Developed by that company, got put into Linux, forked into proprietary product, and remade free software.
19:35:59 <alise> Supposedly the code isn't very good, but come on, it does everything ALSA does but better and with really low latency
19:36:03 <alise> (competitive with JACK iirc)
19:36:11 <alise> (and has an ALSA compatibility layer (ha!))
19:36:16 <alise> isn't very good as in
19:36:20 <alise> doesn't obey kernel module coding standards
19:36:20 <pikhq> alise: Better than ALSA.
19:37:35 <AnMaster> I find alsa works quite well for my hardware
19:38:01 <pikhq> I've had decent luck with ALSA's *drivers*. It's just a royal pain in userspace.
19:38:04 <AnMaster> alise, and jack uses alsa as the backend afaik
19:38:11 <pikhq> There's just too damned much to it!
19:38:16 <AnMaster> as in, it doesn't do it's own kernel drivers
19:38:36 <alise> AnMaster: anyway, I'm only asking about morals.
19:38:38 <alise> pikhq: you can answer too :P
19:38:43 <pikhq> And this is why we've *still* got myriad abstraction layers that try and make it cleaner!
19:39:03 <AnMaster> alise, do whatever maximises the total good in the universe
19:39:08 <pikhq> alise: Even RMS doesn't go so far as to forever condemn a company for a single evil act.
19:39:12 <alise> AnMaster: Repugnant Conclusion
19:39:17 <alise> you mean whatever minimises the total harm
19:39:31 <alise> Repugnant Conclusion
19:39:37 <alise> repugnant just means foul
19:39:43 <alise> pikhq: but they sold a domain to a spammer, knowingly!
19:39:56 <alise> without asking the xmms people!
19:40:05 <alise> then justified it after the found out by saying they'd "spent a lot of money on xmms.org"!
19:40:18 <pikhq> alise: Yes, that makes them either temporarily evil or absolutely freaking *dense*.
19:40:31 <alise> So... I can sleep at night?
19:40:37 <pikhq> I see nothing wrong with just using OSSv4, no.
19:40:50 <pikhq> *Worst* case scenario, you'll have to go back to ALSA.
19:40:52 <alise> IT SHALL BE DONE, as soon as I figure out how to disable pulseaudio.
19:41:00 <pikhq> (if they do a bizarro bait-and-switch)
19:41:17 <alise> Maybe a bait and BITCH.
19:41:43 <AnMaster> alise, not only that, but it is also an useless suggestion in practise
19:41:55 <alise> utilitarianism only works for broader moral decisions :P
19:42:01 <alise> not "can i sleep at night while doing this"
19:42:23 <AnMaster> alise, what was the name of that one that looked at character traits or something
19:42:52 <AnMaster> different groups of ethics philosphy
19:43:28 <alise> your mother invented aristotle
19:43:48 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics
19:44:15 <alise> I refuse to accept any non-consequentialist moral system :P
19:44:27 <alise> I'm a utilitarian but that has nothing to do with OSSv4 :D
19:44:41 <AnMaster> alise, then I will recommend: Do whatever you want (nihilism)
19:44:49 <alise> that isn't nihilism!
19:44:55 <alise> WHY DOES NOBODY UNDERSTAND NIHILISM
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19:49:18 -!- alise has left (?).
19:49:20 -!- alise has joined.
19:51:48 <alise> sudo update-rc.d pulseaudio stop 50 2 3 4 5 .
19:52:07 <alise> hmm that doesn't work
19:53:59 <AnMaster> alise, btw wikipedia lists a number of interesting arguments against the repugnant conclusion
19:54:24 <alise> You mean the "it isn't actually repugnant one"?
19:54:34 <alise> Look at the two equivalent societies. Decide which you'd rather live in.
19:54:42 <alise> It's not the one where everyone's just barely happy.
19:54:49 <AnMaster> alise, I meant the "comparison is incompatible"
19:54:54 <AnMaster> so not the one you thought I meant
19:54:59 <alise> That goes against utilitarianism, then.
19:55:27 <AnMaster> "The comparison between A and A+ was partly dependent on their separation."
19:55:47 <AnMaster> sure there is counter-criticism on that again
19:56:11 <alise> Hmm - is removing ubuntu-desktop really so bad?
19:56:11 <AnMaster> alise, as for "Of course one can simply accept the Repugnant Conclusion. Torbjörn Tännsjö argues that we have a false intuition of the moral weight of billions upon billions of lives "barely worth living". He argues that we must consider that life in Z would not be terrible, and that in our actual world, most lives are actually not far above, and often fall below, the level of "not worth living". T
19:56:11 <AnMaster> herefore the Repugnant Conclusion really isn't so repugnant."
19:56:19 <AnMaster> depends on how selfish you are
19:56:32 <alise> not really. the best society has /everyone/ being happy
19:56:34 <AnMaster> alise, lots of things depend on it or something iirc
19:56:41 <alise> AnMaster: no, it just depends on everything
19:56:46 <AnMaster> alise, yes, here is a one way ticket to utopia
19:56:47 <alise> it's for updates or something
19:56:50 <alise> but is that really so bad?
19:57:05 <alise> AnMaster: it's not utopia unless everyone else is there and it's post-singularity and people aren't left behind
19:57:14 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:57:16 <alise> so if I really knew it was utopia I'd go through -- since it would basically let us all time-travel to post-Singularity
19:57:20 <alise> if not, it's not actually utopia for me.
19:57:39 <AnMaster> alise, wrong. My utopia would not have you in it. So "everyone but ehird" ;P
19:58:06 <alise> I'm sure CEV would solve this problem by either separating us entirely, or modifying us to not dislike each other (god I hope not).
19:58:10 <alise> Or, you know, improving you so you're more like me.
19:58:48 <AnMaster> alise, you mean improving _you_ of course. Not me. ;P
19:59:22 <alise> Coherent Extrapolated Volition.
20:00:20 <AnMaster> alise, eh. Is this like "<insert deity of your choice if you choice>"?
20:01:36 <alise> it's the architecture proposed in Creating Friendly AI for resolving conflict in human desires
20:01:45 <alise> http://singinst.org/upload/CEV.html
20:01:54 <alise> "WARNING: Beware of things that are fun to argue." :-)
20:03:16 -!- ws has joined.
20:13:13 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:16:09 * pikhq is being too lazy to add further optimisations.
20:16:16 <pikhq> This is probably not a good thing.
20:16:43 -!- alise has joined.
20:16:57 <alise> Does anyone know how to disable ALSA?
20:17:06 * pikhq is being too lazy to add further optimisations.
20:17:07 <pikhq> This is probably not a good thing.
20:17:15 <pikhq> alise: Which distro?
20:17:35 <pikhq> You *should* be able to unload the ALSA modules.
20:17:46 <alise> Right, but what about freaky autoload-at-startup stuff.
20:17:53 <alise> Blacklisting ALSA Kernel Modules
20:17:53 <alise> sudo dpkg-reconfigure linux-sound-base
20:18:05 <alise> lol it uninstalls alsa altogether
20:18:07 <alise> ok maybe i'll just do that
20:18:49 <alise> <alise> Flannel: It's a good thing I know what I'm doing, or this would arguably be insanely stupid.
20:19:02 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get purge pulseaudio gstreamer0.10-pulseaudio
20:19:06 <alise> i am doing a reasonable thing here
20:19:18 <alise> HA HA THE PULSEAUDIO IS DEAD
20:19:27 <pikhq> Yes, yes. Purge Pulseaudio.
20:19:40 <alise> GOODBYE ALSA-BASE! GOODBYE ALSA-UTILS!
20:19:51 <alise> ROCKET BRAIN SURGERY ON UBUTNU
20:20:00 <alise> "Blacklisting ALSA Kernel Modules"
20:20:02 <alise> WE'RE NOT DONE YET
20:20:46 <alise> In general, it's better to have applications use the OSS API or a higher level sound API/library with OSS4, but if you have the libasound2-plugins package (it's pre-installed on standard Ubuntu installs), it is possible to have ALSA applications output to OSS with this workaround (the first method).
20:20:51 <alise> Nothing supports OSS any more, though :P
20:20:55 <alise> mplayer does. Anything else?
20:21:00 <alise> Hmm... do things like xine?
20:21:19 <pikhq> Actually, *most* things support OSS.
20:21:40 <alise> That's not what I wanted to hear! I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO CONFIGURE MORE! :P
20:21:40 <pikhq> ALSA only exists on Linux. OSS exists on almost every other UNIX.
20:21:49 <pikhq> Xine supports OSS, yes.
20:22:37 <pikhq> alise: See, if this were Gentoo, you'd just do USE="-alsa oss", rebuild, and call it a day.
20:23:07 <alise> Hmm, the OSSv4 in Ubuntu is one build behind. I do not feel like using their binaries
20:23:21 <alise> I know gstreamer can use oss
20:23:44 <alise> http://www.opensound.com/wiki/index.php/Configuring_Applications_for_OSSv4
20:24:30 <alise> pikhq: Sweet, I just realised I'm gonna have to use their custom mixer application
20:24:34 <alise> This is the good fight I'm fighting right??
20:25:02 <alise> For OSS to work on a system with a given sound card, there must be an OSS
20:25:02 <alise> driver for that card in the kernel. For Linux 2.6, a custom oss4-modules
20:25:02 <alise> package can be built from the sources in the oss4-source package using the
20:25:02 <alise> module-assistant utility.
20:25:05 <alise> sure hope it supports my onboard
20:25:20 <alise> I wonder what I'll have to do
20:25:39 <alise> Error! Bad return status for module build on kernel: 2.6.32-22-generic (x86_64)
20:25:39 <alise> Consult the make.log in the build directory
20:25:40 <alise> /var/lib/dkms/oss4/4.2-build2002/build/ for more information.
20:26:18 <alise> For OSS to work on a system with a given sound card, there must be an OSS
20:26:18 <alise> driver for that card in the kernel. For Linux 2.6, a custom oss4-modules
20:26:18 <alise> package can be built from the sources in the oss4-source package using the
20:26:18 <alise> module-assistant utility.
20:26:20 <alise> Guess I have to do this then
20:27:37 <alise> pikhq: Haha what am I doing to my system.
20:30:38 <alise> │ cp: cannot stat ▒
20:30:38 <alise> │ `/lib/modules/2.6.32-22-generic/source/include/linux/limits.h': No such ▒
20:30:39 <alise> │ file or directory ▒
20:31:06 <alise> is alrdy installed :<
20:31:33 <relet> NO NO! NO NONONO! There's no limits nono!
20:32:16 <pikhq> alise: Oh. You don't have kernel headers installed.
20:32:50 <pikhq> alise: Not the ones for module building.
20:33:06 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:33:16 <alise> "Topology, man. Like... what the shit, man..."
20:33:21 <pikhq> ls /lib/modules/2.6.32-22-generic/source/include/linux
20:33:31 <alise> ls: cannot access /lib/modules/2.6.32-22-generic/source/include/linux: No such file or directory
20:33:34 <alise> NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU#
20:33:44 <pikhq> See, don't have it.
20:33:51 <alise> but there no packaj :<
20:34:09 <pikhq> Kernel source or kernel-build or something.
20:35:02 -!- uorygl has joined.
20:35:15 <alise> installin kernel source :<<<< but it already there
20:35:19 <alise> No candidate version found for kernel-source
20:35:19 <alise> No candidate version found for kernel-source
20:35:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't really know
20:36:24 * alise unstal oss to use packaj
20:36:29 <oerjan> the "obvious" way of making a sphere from squares ends up with some squares at the poles that don't have 8 neighbors
20:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: OK. Me and AnMaster had an argument about it a while ago.
20:36:42 <alise> toooooo traumattic
20:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I also thought that the hairy ball theorem came into it
20:37:16 <oerjan> yeah i think i recall that discussion
20:37:32 <alise> Why am I pretending to be a small, fluffy, retarded animal?
20:37:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there might be an argument there. hm.
20:37:46 <alise> gahahahahahaha hairy ball theorem :D
20:38:06 <alise> ahahahahahahahah hairy ball theorem
20:38:16 * Sgeo_ fell asleep in the middle of the day
20:38:27 <alise> hairy ball theorem
20:38:31 <alise> agahgahgahahahahaja :D
20:38:35 <oerjan> well he's said he's small, he might well be fluffy. and the State says he's retarded
20:38:50 <alise> is mentally ill strictly the same thing as retarded
20:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: I never thought it was funny when I first heard of it.
20:38:56 <Sgeo_> The theorem that you are a hairy ball? It's been mathematically proven?
20:38:57 <alise> i make mewing noises too!
20:39:05 <oerjan> alise: give or take a few marbles
20:39:07 <alise> Sgeo_: IT IS FUNI BECAUSE IT IS LIKE GENITALIA
20:39:16 <alise> ...but i'm a FLUFFY ball tyvm
20:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_: No, it's something boring with vector fields on spheres.
20:39:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh hm i remembered another reason
20:39:57 <Sgeo_> alise, get out of Limbo, dangit
20:40:18 <alise> ************************************************************
20:40:18 <alise> * NOTE! You are using trial version of Open Sound System *
20:40:18 <alise> ************************************************************
20:40:21 <alise> The prebuilt packages available for download on this page are licensed under the 4Front Commercial License. These packages contain drivers which are not licensed under the various Open Source license. The packages come with a 1 year time limited license key and a permanant license key that will entitle you to free support and upgrades can be ordered here
20:41:19 <alise> --enable-libsalsa=NO: Don't build libsalsa (Linux only - other OSs don't build libsalsa).
20:41:23 <alise> BUT I WANT LIBSALSA :((
20:42:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_graph#Euler.27s_formula
20:42:39 <alise> emacs23: Depends: libasound2 (> 1.0.22) but it is not installable
20:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: Because the Moore neighbourhood would violate it for a polyhedron?
20:43:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i suspect so
20:43:53 <oerjan> lessee all faces are squares
20:44:19 <oerjan> each vertex borders 4 squares
20:44:39 <oerjan> each edge is shared between 2 faces
20:45:00 <oerjan> each squares has 4 vertices. so f = v
20:45:14 <alise> i think i on oss nao
20:45:41 <oerjan> each square has 4 edges, so um, 2f = e
20:45:45 <alise> all i have to do now is swappy chans ^_^
20:46:02 <alise> pikhq: the problem is that gentoo sucks :P
20:46:17 <alise> osspartysh, i hope that is really a party in oss
20:46:25 <alise> osspartysh - reverse "telnet" utility for OSs technical support
20:46:31 <oerjan> for a polyhedron you have one more face than for just a planar graph (the outside)
20:46:33 <alise> I love commercial software, it's so queer
20:46:39 <alise> The osspartysh is an utility that makes it possible to a remote suport
20:46:39 <alise> engineer to share the session with a customer. The session runs in cus‐
20:46:39 <alise> tomer's computer but both the customer and the support engineer can
20:46:39 <alise> type comands and see the output. It is possible to run commands like vi
20:47:28 <oerjan> um i think that 3 is wrong
20:48:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ITYM ∎
20:48:36 <alise> Personally I'd write "Quod erat demonstrandum." out in full if I ever proved, say, the Riemann hypothesis.
20:48:51 <oerjan> er for a cube v = 8, e = 12, f = 6 so v - e + f = 2
20:49:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh wait, the wikipedia formula _includes_ the outer region
20:49:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: xD
20:49:36 <pikhq> alise: I doubt anyone ever would blame you.
20:49:43 <alise> "Yes, I agree, 2 is not 0."
20:49:55 <alise> pikhq: Can you imagining finishing such a proof with a ∎? Pfft.
20:50:13 <alise> And why would you ABBREVIATE it when this is, like, the biggest thing in mathematics ever? YOU'RE ALLOWED TO MASTURBATE IN THIS PAPER
20:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, if I was proving arithmetic inconsistent I'd probably write "sorry".
20:50:47 <alise> me guesses to restart now would be good.
20:50:48 <pikhq> I'd even accept Wolfram using cellular automatons to do the proof.
20:50:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :D
20:50:58 <pikhq> (if he pulled it off)
20:51:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Same.
20:51:12 <pikhq> Perhaps even "Mea culpa".
20:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence proving the RH undecidable is also apology-worthy.
20:51:52 <alise> I'd end "ZFC is inconsistent" with a partial list of Obsoleted References, ending in "..."
20:52:00 <alise> Which would just be a random selection of famous papers that... used ZFC.
20:52:24 <oerjan> alise: i was just confused by the constant in wikipedia's version of the formula
20:52:53 <alise> btw you guys /may/ also see me on wednesday.
20:53:01 <alise> since i come back home in tuesday
20:54:23 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:55:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_characteristic#Examples
20:56:54 <oerjan> which shows us that from those examples, only the torus, mobius strip and klein bottle have a chance of working perfectly with moore neigborhoods
20:57:35 <relet> hmmm. have there been any esoteric languages proposed which would correspond to BASIC in an esoteric natural language?
20:57:46 <uorygl> Why wouldn't you do Real Projective Life?
20:57:50 <oerjan> and i think we checked that all those work previously
20:58:17 <oerjan> uorygl: we cannot cover it properly with squares such that each square has 8 neighboors
20:58:34 * uorygl briefly attempts to do so.
20:58:35 -!- alise has joined.
20:58:42 <alise> Who wants to see the OSS v4 graphical mixer?
20:58:49 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/e7qN6.png
20:58:55 <alise> You cannot see it without going insane!
20:59:05 * uorygl decides he cannot do it.
20:59:12 <uorygl> alise: good thing I didn't look at it.
20:59:23 <alise> All I want is a single slider.
20:59:25 <uorygl> What if an insane person looks at it?
20:59:29 <oerjan> relet: erm "natural" as in non-programming?
20:59:40 <alise> They go so insane they wrap back around again, become sane again, then it goes so far they become insane again.
20:59:43 <alise> Overall, no change.
20:59:59 <uorygl> Mathematics: the natural programming language.
21:00:05 <uorygl> All other programming languages are constructed.
21:01:52 <alise> what's an anagram of banach-tarski?
21:02:21 <oerjan> !haskell sort "banach-tarski"
21:02:41 <alise> oerjan: "I kan hat a crabs"
21:02:50 <alise> you were meant to take the bait and say "banach-tarski banach-tarski" :(
21:02:53 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List;main=print$sort "banach-tarski"
21:03:06 <uorygl> alise: yes, but that answer is also correct.
21:04:46 <alise> Anyone know how to swap channels in oss4?
21:04:59 <alise> YOU'RE ALL DOING IT WRONG
21:05:12 <Deewiant> Why do you need to swap channels?
21:05:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Lithping, are we?
21:05:31 <alise> Deewiant: my speaker cable only reaches the wrong way around
21:05:46 <alise> i could maybe stretch it to work but.. nah
21:05:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that is not how lisps work.
21:05:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also scheme is better
21:06:08 <alise> *\m/ Knights of the Lambda Calculus forever \m/*
21:06:58 <alise> he's half-bot, half-human
21:06:59 <Sgeo_> alise, so no LambdaMOO today?
21:07:02 <alise> like the terminator if he was half-human
21:07:06 <alise> Sgeo_: well i have an account...
21:07:28 <alise> there's nobody there!
21:07:50 <alise> wow, osstest(1) uses really cheesy music
21:08:56 <oerjan> satanic barakh - where did i cheat?
21:09:09 <alise> you can use letters twice, they proved that
21:09:52 <Sgeo_> I'll go continue watching SG-1 then
21:10:25 <oerjan> alise: hey it's more plausible than most 666 attempts
21:11:32 <oerjan> Sgeo_: number of the beast
21:13:08 <oerjan> "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
21:14:48 <oerjan> (from Revelations 13:18)
21:16:04 <alise> that's an incorrect translation btw :P
21:16:55 <oerjan> basically every man christians have ever disliked, they've tried to find some way to connect that number with him. usually by turning letters into numbers, since that's what the ancients used to do
21:17:13 <oerjan> alise: [dubious; discuss]
21:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Six hundred threescore and six" > "six hundred and sixteen"
21:18:07 <alise> oerjan: yeah yeah i know
21:18:12 <alise> the whole bible is dubious though
21:18:17 <alise> also, Sgeo_ knows you know
21:18:21 <alise> someone ping me plz
21:19:52 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...).
21:20:32 <alise> just mention my name
21:21:00 <alise> Switched sound system to OSSv4.
21:21:38 <oerjan> !haskell sum . map (subtract 96 . fromEnum) $ "barackobama"
21:22:07 <oerjan> !haskell sum . map (fromEnum) $ "barackobama"
21:23:00 <alise> clearly we need a function solver
21:23:04 <alise> f("barackobama") = 666
21:23:10 <alise> then we can justify it :P
21:23:33 <oerjan> !haskell main = print (sum (map (fromEnum) beast) - 666)/length beast where beast="barackobama"
21:24:23 <alise> flac -d --stdout "foo.flac" >/dev/dsp
21:24:26 <alise> it's the slow remix :DDD
21:24:48 <oerjan> !haskell main = print (sum (map (fromEnum) beast) - 666)//length beast where beast="barackobama"; a//b = fromIntegral a/fromIntegral b
21:25:15 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ (sum (map (fromEnum) beast) - 666)//length beast where beast="barackobama"; a//b = fromIntegral a/fromIntegral b
21:26:01 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ (sum (map (fromEnum) beast) - 666)//length beast where beast="barack obama"; a//b = fromIntegral a/fromIntegral b
21:26:25 <alise> this is terrifying
21:27:40 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ (sum (map (fromEnum) beast) - 666)//length beast where beast="barackhobama"; a//b = fromIntegral a/fromIntegral b
21:28:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: *it's-not-globals-it's-special-variables-iirc*
21:28:17 <alise> *they're-like-dynamic-scoping*
21:28:31 <alise> (let ((*bastard* ploop)) (foo))
21:28:35 <alise> foo has *bastard* = ploop
21:30:09 <alise> Why just a music player?
21:30:09 <alise> A lot of people ask us about video. But video will not be included, nor will it be supported in XMMS2 - in fact video-support is even less possible than in XMMS1. This choice has numerous reasons. Music and video are very separate things, despite what many people like to think. The architecture of XMMS2 is designed such that it handles audio wonderfully well - handling video is simply not part of this project's scope and will not be added. And we believe tha
21:30:10 <alise> t we can make the best music player out there, but not the best video player, so we stick to what we are best at. There are other choices, if you wish to play video and audio via the same application.
21:30:10 <alise> But XMMS stands for X MultiMedia System, that includes video!
21:30:12 <alise> Wrong. In "XMMS2", XMMS stands for X(cross)platform Music Multiplexing System.
21:30:14 <alise> Backronyms to the rescue
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21:34:12 <oerjan> as opposed to palindromes
21:34:26 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ (sum (map (fromEnum) beast) - 666)//length beast where beast="sarahpalin"; a//b = fromIntegral a/fromIntegral b
21:34:42 <alise> XMMS2 is not working. What should I do?
21:34:43 <alise> You should do it right, of course. Stop doing it wrong, and it'll start working.
21:34:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:35:07 <alise> I added some music and started playing, but I can't hear anything!
21:35:07 <alise> "Did you try turning it off and on?" This checklist might help:
21:35:07 <alise> Are you deaf? In the future, try to remember this when using media players.
21:35:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes!
21:35:28 <pikhq> That is my appelation!
21:35:31 <oerjan> alise: is that an actual faq?
21:35:45 <alise> (i'm eliding a lot of course)
21:36:40 <alise> Not when you pipe the output of flac -d to /dev/dsp
21:36:43 <alise> IT MAKES IT SO DEEP AND SLOW
21:39:05 <alise> Maybe I'll write my OWN music daemon.
21:40:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:40:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:42:02 <pikhq> This appears to not understand the concept of delivering packets.
21:44:54 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:46:51 -!- uorygl has joined.
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22:02:37 <alise> coppro: just haven't said anything about it for N years :P
22:02:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:02:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:04:24 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
22:04:42 <coppro> well now you have. congratulations
22:04:54 <alise> Reply to Reply to "Reply to 'Reply to 'Continued Thoughts on Collections"
22:06:51 <alise> Anyone heard of this C coding style: Linux, except a space before function arguments?
22:09:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:09:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:09:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:28 <alise> pikhq: Is that legal?
22:11:12 <pikhq> alise: Lessee: not child porn, not copyright violation, and not prostitution...
22:11:27 <alise> pikhq: But I'm underage... wait, do you mean literal shit?
22:11:35 <alise> Okay, new question: Is that... hygienic?
22:11:52 <pikhq> alise: I never said anything about video-taping it.
22:11:59 <pikhq> Which makes it not child porn.
22:12:19 <alise> Right, I was assuming there was another sentient party, i.e. that "this shit" was metaphorical.
22:12:54 * pikhq wants a 300 baud Internet connection
22:13:33 <pikhq> 16:13 -!- Irssi: Join to #esoteric was synced in 231 secs
22:14:09 <Sgeo_> alise, I just lept inside the housekeeper
22:15:05 <alise> pikhq: Should I write my own music server? Would that be a PERFECTLY CROMULENT idea??
22:16:02 <Sgeo_> My effort to end up in a recycling plant has failed
22:16:24 <alise> pikhq: Would you be able to load a png?
22:16:38 <alise> Sgeo_: Was this directly linked to leaping inside the housekeeper
22:16:42 -!- CakeProp1et has joined.
22:16:52 <alise> pikhq: If so: BEHOLD: http://i.imgur.com/lXhC0.png
22:16:55 <alise> CakeProp1et, also: http://i.imgur.com/lXhC0.png
22:16:57 <Sgeo_> It was related to me panicking about kidnapping the housekeeper
22:17:03 <Sgeo_> So I tried to go to the housekeeper's home
22:17:09 <Sgeo_> And instead ended up inside her
22:17:23 <alise> Sgeo_: Are you deliberately making these innuendi?
22:17:31 <alise> (Yes, innuendi. Or is it innuendii?)
22:17:56 <Sgeo_> Actually, I'm not sure that the housekeeper is a her
22:17:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:18:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:18:38 <alise> Sgeo_: I do hope you realise that I'm mercilessly quoting these out of context.
22:18:41 <alise> pikhq: http://i.imgur.com/lXhC0.png
22:18:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:02 <alise> How do you fuck a neuter?
22:19:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:19:57 <Sgeo_> Also inside the housekeeper: Someone's panties
22:20:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:21:48 <alise> Wait, you have CLOTHES in lambdamoo?
22:23:12 <Sgeo_> I think so, but I haven't particularly paid attention
22:23:47 <alise> Wow, there's an Arch Linux fork that uses OSSv4 and BFS by default.
22:26:24 <alise> ...unfortunately, it appears to be maintained by a 17-year-old who has a long rambling blog post about how he's met the most perfect person in the world and nobody could be more perferecter and computing now seems so boring that he stopped working on the distro for a while.
22:28:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:30:48 <alise> Did you not see my last line? :)
22:31:08 <alise> http://icadyptes.org/ anyway.
22:32:41 <alise> It's more like titantic-someone-else's-ego.
22:32:52 <alise> http://diyist.blogspot.com/2009/04/major-updates.html
22:32:59 <alise> Note the authentic white-on-black background for a teenager.
22:33:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i hear wolfram is better than titan
22:33:09 <alise> "As per the title, I have been the lead Linux distribution developer for two distributions. I believe I used to be the world's youngest lead distribution developer at 14 while I was making Zenserver."
22:33:28 <alise> The only reason I didn't consider a distro before trying to make that static one is because I realised it was fucking pointless :P
22:38:39 <AnMaster> for some prototyping: C (using brickOS) or NQC (using official lego firmware)?
22:39:08 <AnMaster> I haven't coded against brickOS before... I have a working toolchain however
22:39:27 <AnMaster> and it was ages ago I last coded in nqc
22:39:37 <alise> C is probably better than Not Quite C.
22:39:50 <alise> For that is what it stands for.
22:39:52 <AnMaster> alise, hm did you just google what nqc was? ;P
22:40:43 -!- Oranjer has joined.
22:40:57 <AnMaster> alise, and well yeah, it uses a C like syntax. But it has the idiosyncrasies and of the bytecode interpreter of the official firmware. On the other hand it handles memory management for you
22:41:32 <AnMaster> and it is probably faster to get something quick and dirty working in it
22:42:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:42:11 <AnMaster> alise, oh and what to call the program. Maybe you can help.
22:42:38 <alise> Also, do they /have/ enough memory to be managed?
22:42:39 <AnMaster> alise, Quick test program to figure out the mapping between the rotation sensor and the turntable angle
22:42:42 <alise> Surely you would just use static buffers.
22:42:46 <alise> AnMaster: That doesn't need a name!
22:43:03 <AnMaster> alise, rotation_mapping maybe?
22:43:26 <zzo38> I added some more ideas now in list of ideas
22:44:02 <alise> C doesn't apply, it can't do - :P
22:44:06 <AnMaster> for lisp it would obviously be - > _ > camelCase
22:44:13 <alise> - is certainly the nicest on the eyes for humans to read.
22:44:18 <alise> And gels best with English.
22:44:25 <AnMaster> alise, and that is just a cultural thing
22:44:34 <AnMaster> - works in C filenames however
22:44:34 <alise> No, it's an eyeballs thing :P
22:44:42 <alise> I definitely wouldn't write a configuration file format with underscores
22:45:03 <AnMaster> alise, as for memory management. iirc the official firmware just gives you a few (32? something like that) variable slots
22:45:30 <AnMaster> alise, anyway brickOS has dynamic linking. Uses coff file format.
22:45:30 <alise> Okay, use C and just do ... foo[big]
22:46:00 <alise> Yes, but don't use it
22:46:08 <alise> (Or floating point)
22:46:43 <AnMaster> alise, well, dynamic linking I need to use, since it is that or link statically to firmware. And downloading a new firmware version takes about 3 minutes
22:46:48 <zzo38> I have two new ideas:
22:46:55 <zzo38> * Casino Viagra program language, where the programs are going to be caught by spam-filter program and/or by anti-virus program.
22:47:00 <zzo38> * Ones with music (like Choon or Fugue), but using Bohlen-Pierce scales.
22:47:38 <zzo38> Of course you can combine any of these ideas, like the last list item said: A combination of all of the above (and more).
22:47:50 <alise> AnMaster: don't use malloc though
22:48:03 <AnMaster> alise, well probably a good idea.
22:48:47 <AnMaster> alise, on the other hand, I'm not sure how static buffers are allocated. As in, is space reserved or something silly like that
22:49:16 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
22:49:17 <AnMaster> alise, iirc there is some special attribute or such now to force a variable to be stored between program runs
22:49:24 <AnMaster> need to read up on the API docs really
22:49:44 <alise> Of course space should be reserved
22:49:47 <alise> This is embedded programming
22:50:05 <alise> btw, who are lego robots targeted at? No average kid could do this.
22:50:08 -!- Oranjer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:51:09 <AnMaster> alise, in other news, my university had a "database crash", losing about 12 hours of data. And it took 2 days to get things working again.
22:51:22 <AnMaster> considering the long time it took it sounds more like hardware dying
22:51:36 <alise> Should I name my sound daemon Belial??
22:51:55 <AnMaster> alise, what is wrong with jack?
22:52:02 <alise> Erm, music daemon.
22:52:10 <alise> And jack sucks, OSSv4 directly ftw :P
22:52:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:52:44 <AnMaster> alise, most "professional" sound apps support jack and only jack on linux
22:53:03 <alise> anyway yeah but jack outputs to alsa or oss or whatever of course.
22:53:09 <alise> it's just that ossv4 is already low-latency :P
22:53:17 <alise> also ossv4 emulates alsa... but it's slower
22:53:20 <alise> fmod = http://www.fmod.org/
22:53:41 <alise> the 'industry standard'.
22:53:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:53:50 <AnMaster> alise, I can't find any "about"
22:54:02 <alise> they don't need an about. because they're the industry standard
22:54:26 <alise> AnMaster: all the games for linux, basically (which is more than you think), use it
22:54:29 <alise> AnMaster: who knows
22:54:53 <alise> FMOD Ex (including Designer)First Platform$ 6,000 USD
22:54:53 <alise> FMOD Ex (including Designer)Subsequent Platforms$ 3,000 USD
22:54:57 <AnMaster> alise, darwinia? That is like the only non-open source linux game I ever played
22:55:06 <alise> for "budget title":
22:55:06 <alise> FMOD Ex (including Designer)First Platform$ 3,000 USD
22:55:07 <alise> FMOD Ex (including Designer)Subsequent Platforms$ 1,500 USD
22:55:16 <alise> AnMaster: probably, let me look it up.
22:55:19 <AnMaster> alise, you posted same price twice
22:55:30 <alise> the latter one is for budget releases
22:55:37 <AnMaster> alise, but what do pro audio apps use?
22:55:38 <alise> the makers of darwinia made a nice game earlier, uplink
22:55:44 <alise> it was a "hacking" game but actually quite realistic
22:55:49 <alise> the shells acted like real linux to a point
22:56:00 <alise> and if you deleted the core system files on a server
22:56:03 <alise> it'd disappear and not come back
22:56:05 <alise> for the rest of the game
22:56:11 <alise> had to route around to make tracking slower, etc.
22:56:20 <alise> available for windows, os x, and linux, one purchase, one disc
22:56:28 <alise> and one extra purchase got you a developer disk
22:56:29 <alise> with FULL SOURCE CODE
22:56:37 <alise> and you were allowed to modify it and release modifications
22:56:42 <AnMaster> they didn't do that for darwinia iirc?
22:56:48 <alise> dunno, don't think so
22:56:52 <alise> the company's cool
22:57:25 <AnMaster> alise, iirc they never released the latest patches for darwinia to linux
22:57:26 <alise> Introversion has a relatively small but growing following and its games are considered cult classics. Both Uplink and Darwinia have a strong modding community.
22:57:44 <AnMaster> alise, means there was some unresolved bugs
22:58:07 <alise> they -- at least used to -- post on their own forums a lot and all
22:58:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:58:29 <alise> oh, and another thing about uplink
22:58:34 <AnMaster> alise, oh and some feature added in that last patch, never showed up on linux either iirc
22:58:34 <alise> the save deleted itself
22:58:46 <alise> it was very realistic for a hacking game, good fun
22:58:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:59:02 <AnMaster> alise, also cp save.bak save ;P
22:59:08 <alise> no, that was what everyone wanted after a while but no
22:59:18 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:59:19 <alise> it did have an integrated irc client that went to the uplink channel though ingame :P
22:59:24 <alise> for no discernable reason
22:59:56 <AnMaster> should try to find a discarded copy on the street or such
23:00:22 <AnMaster> alise, oh btw I'm going to weigh my lego turn table monster tomorrow, not that it is completely finished yet
23:00:47 <alise> another fun thing about uplink was it had the typical movie ultra-fast password breakers
23:00:57 <alise> the first one you got was really slow, meaning you got caught a lot quicker
23:01:03 <alise> so you had to keep buying more expensive versions of the software :D
23:01:17 <AnMaster> alise, and I'm running short on 3709b
23:01:40 <AnMaster> I said I'm running short on 3709b!
23:01:58 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
23:02:04 <AnMaster> alise, 3709b is the official code for "Technic Plate 2 x 4 with Holes"
23:02:05 <alise> good name for a music daemon???
23:02:28 <alise> that's boring it should be named after an actual daemon
23:02:59 <AnMaster> alise, not true. It isn't in nethack ;P
23:03:16 <alise> apparently in older scripts he was called Matanbuchus
23:03:20 <alise> which is, you know, significantly less catchy
23:04:09 <AnMaster> alise, one of these: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Demon#Unique_demons_and_summoning
23:04:38 <alise> also it has to be short because i'll be prefixing all my symbols with it :P
23:05:11 <alise> but just makes me think of orcs
23:05:16 <alise> orcs are not terribly demonic
23:05:32 <alise> tengu is the only half-acceptable name there imo
23:06:29 <alise> Well, a music server isn't exactly keepthefuckingsystemrunningd.
23:06:31 <alise> So it's relatively minor.
23:07:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:07:32 <AnMaster> I killed more tengu (what is the plural?) in nethack than I can count by squaring my total finger and toe count.
23:07:41 <alise> [[The incubus and succubus are male and female versions of the
23:07:41 <alise> same demon, one who lies with a human for its own purposes,
23:07:41 <alise> usually to the detriment of the mortals who are unwise in
23:07:41 <alise> their dealings with them.]]
23:07:53 <AnMaster> (okay, odd comparison but meh)
23:08:17 <AnMaster> alise, suure about me killing more than 400 tengu during my time playing nethack?
23:08:26 <AnMaster> they are relatively easy for a high level char
23:08:40 <alise> suuuure about the nethack encyclopedia entry for incu/succubus
23:09:03 <alise> would have thought that obvious
23:09:40 <alise> what's that thing that makes everything change symbol (I don't play nethack)
23:09:43 <alise> it's lsd or something
23:09:48 <alise> but i think you get hit
23:10:23 <AnMaster> alise, there are many things that can cause hallucination if that is what you mean
23:10:57 <alise> got hit or something, everything changed symbol and colour every turn
23:10:59 <AnMaster> eating bad stuff could cause it
23:11:00 <alise> had to sit around for N turns to let it subside
23:11:04 <alise> it was a bad corpse
23:11:17 <AnMaster> alise, yellow light isn't really early in the game indeed
23:11:54 <alise> the problem with nethack is that when i move about quickly, it feels like a realtime game
23:12:00 <alise> monsters move at a normal speed, so do i, i can attack them, etc.
23:12:08 <alise> my brain can't interpret it as a go-slowly-and-think-every-turn game
23:12:20 <alise> because it just seems like a ludicrously slow version of the "realtime" one
23:12:30 <alise> so i do stupid things and die
23:12:44 <alise> *my problem, not the problem
23:12:45 <Sgeo_> There's a realtime nethack?
23:13:30 <alise> but if you hold down the moving keys it feels like a realtime game
23:13:36 <alise> (implicit AnMaster:) does -Wextra imply -Wall?
23:13:43 <Sgeo_> So don't hold down the moving keys?
23:13:47 <alise> if not, imagining using just -Wextra :D
23:13:52 <alise> Sgeo_: but it's a cognitive defect of mine!
23:14:02 <AnMaster> <alise> (implicit AnMaster:) does -Wextra imply -Wall? <-- this is in WHICH context?
23:14:32 <Sgeo_> I think AnMaster thought alise was implying that it's a question that AnMaster would ask
23:14:52 <alise> just that AnMaster is obviously the person who would know this
23:14:58 <AnMaster> alise, I don't think so. But I'm not sure
23:15:07 -!- olsner has joined.
23:15:42 <Sgeo_> alise, feel insulted that you just asked a question that AnMaster thought was AnMaster worthy
23:15:54 <alise> haha, indeed, -Wextra =/> -Wall
23:16:03 <AnMaster> <alise> so i do stupid things and die ← holding down arrow keys in nethack would count as stupid thing :P
23:16:21 <alise> AnMaster: b-but if any monsters appear I can just fight them off!
23:16:31 <alise> AnMaster: anyway, I suggest compiling something with -Wextra -pedantic but not -Wall :D
23:16:34 <alise> It'd /just/ nitpick
23:16:38 <AnMaster> alise, yeah right, the fast elf running up from behind...
23:16:41 <Sgeo_> alise, there are special movement ... things to let you go all the way down a corridor
23:16:52 <AnMaster> alise, you aren't the fastest thing in the game remember
23:16:56 <alise> Sgeo_: that sounds ridiculously risky
23:16:58 <alise> AnMaster: SHUT UP :<
23:17:02 <Sgeo_> alise, it's less risky
23:17:13 <Sgeo_> alise, they stop you if something happens, iirc
23:17:13 <alise> AnMaster: i never got far enough to see an elf anyway :D
23:17:43 <alise> so, um, /me has come across a situation that simultaneously demands a database and demands not a database
23:17:50 <AnMaster> they are on the plane of air however
23:18:07 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
23:18:33 <alise> A music library manager daemon obviously has to keep the files on disk. This is a Good Thing.
23:18:40 <alise> These files on disk contain tags (well, they should do, anyway).
23:18:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:18:54 <alise> I want to support very advanced (SQL-style) queries on tags and stuff, and also saved collections of things-that-satisfy-a-certain-thing.
23:19:11 <alise> I don't want to put it in a database, because the primary id keys would be unnatural. I can't use the filepath as a primary key because that's not considered good database practice.
23:19:16 <alise> And, I'd like it to be in sync with the filesystem.
23:19:25 <alise> Basically, I need an extensively-queriable cache of tags.
23:19:51 <AnMaster> I forgot to connect usb IR tower
23:20:23 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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23:21:48 <alise> AnMaster: any suggestions?
23:22:09 -!- uorygl has joined.
23:22:17 <Sgeo_> Maybe I can wear the Generic Wearable Object
23:23:00 <AnMaster> answer to everything according to some
23:23:27 <alise> So, suggest something you agree with :P
23:24:24 <AnMaster> wth is a battery current of 17.0F?
23:25:01 <alise> AnMaster: ANSAR MAH Q
23:25:16 <AnMaster> alise, well, I don't know. Why not make a module
23:26:12 <AnMaster> so you can easily switch between flatfile, sqlite, postgres, oracle, ms sql server, DB2, firebird and ms access?
23:26:22 <alise> BUT THE WHOLE PROGRAM IS THAT A DATABASE ISN'T SUITABLE :P
23:26:43 <AnMaster> alise, that's the flatfile option
23:27:03 <alise> no, because the whole problem is that i need efficient, flexible querying while not having an authoritative database!
23:27:12 <alise> i want the querying parts of sql in some sort of filesystem music-file-tags cache
23:27:27 <alise> *filesystem-music-
23:27:37 <AnMaster> alise, okay, just put it in an open office spreadsheet and implement a fake X server to query this by emulating user input
23:27:53 <AnMaster> alise, sorry, couldn't resist it
23:28:04 <AnMaster> alise, also this _is_ #esoteric
23:28:31 <alise> So I thought of a really awesome thing you get when you do a daemon design.
23:28:37 <alise> True unix philosophy!
23:28:44 <AnMaster> alise, okay so don't do db, implement your own music-file-tags cache and your own SQL parser
23:28:54 <alise> last.fm is a service where your music player "scrobbles" all the tracks you listen to. These form a profilethingy, but most importantly:
23:29:09 <alise> You get recommendations for music and stuff based on these scrobblings, and if you pay $$$ you can even listen to an internet radio based on them.
23:29:18 <alise> Now, in a normal player, this would be part of the functionality or a plugin.
23:29:31 <alise> With a music daemon? It's just another client that connects, listens to track-change messages, and sends them off to last.fm.
23:29:37 <alise> Completely separate from your actual player interface.
23:29:45 <alise> One tool, one job.
23:30:09 <alise> AnMaster: Now, ridiculous idea time.
23:30:19 <alise> AnMaster: Clearly, communication with the daemon should be done via RESTful HTTP.
23:30:20 <AnMaster> alise, what? You are going to implement the X thingy?
23:30:30 <alise> POST /tracks/348/play
23:30:37 <alise> AnMaster: I was joking.
23:30:44 <alise> AnMaster: It'd be way too slow, anyway.
23:30:54 <alise> When I click "next track" I expect to hear the audio coming out in, like, 0.5 seconds at the very most.
23:31:00 <pikhq_> alise: Sounds like you want to do mpd only better.
23:31:03 <AnMaster> alise, okay what about exercising HTTP
23:31:09 <alise> pikhq_: No, I want to do xmms2 only better.
23:31:19 <alise> pikhq_: xmms2, though it was started without knowledge of mpd, is trying to do mpd only better.
23:31:29 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:31:54 <alise> xmms2 is sucky in some ways though. Their configuration file is XML.
23:32:06 <alise> Seriously, there is no hierarchy in a music daemon's configuration. It's just (key,value) pairs!
23:32:08 <AnMaster> alise, you should use S-Expressions
23:32:21 <alise> AnMaster: Maybe I will. OR, maybe I'll use something easy to parse quickly.
23:32:26 <alise> Because you don't need to... nest... at all.
23:32:32 <AnMaster> alise, S-Expressions are easy to parse
23:32:39 <alise> Say, "command\1arg\1arg\1arg\n"?
23:32:39 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:32:47 <alise> Sorry, *\r\n; internet protocol.
23:32:58 -!- uorygl has joined.
23:33:03 <AnMaster> alise, argh this looks like the monster that is virtualbox configs. Which is both xml and paths iirc
23:33:14 <alise> Does anyone else find it funny that it's the *Internet* that requires the use of the deprecated typewriter return character?
23:33:30 <alise> AnMaster: oh you mean s-expressions for the config file
23:33:33 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't. It is IRC that does
23:33:34 <alise> I thought you meant for server communication
23:33:42 <alise> (which probably will be command{\1arg}\n)
23:34:08 <alise> AnMaster: Config will be {key /\s*:\s*/ value "\n"}.
23:34:10 <AnMaster> alise, but obviously the more S-Expressions the better
23:34:18 <alise> music-root: ~/music
23:34:21 <alise> remote-username: foo
23:34:23 <alise> remote-password: bar
23:34:43 <alise> Sorry, */\n+/ in that syntax :P
23:34:50 <alise> Oh, and "# ..." comments.
23:36:00 <alise> SO YEAH PRETTY MUCH MY MUSIC DAEMON WILL BE AWESOME.
23:36:10 <alise> There's an API to watch for changes in a directory and any of its children, right?
23:36:25 <alise> I'll probably set that up on the music-root so that any added music files are added to the library, and any deleted ones are removed.
23:36:44 <pikhq_> AnMaster: All protocols with RFCs that use text require the old typewriter return character.
23:37:22 <alise> it's internet standard
23:37:27 <alise> although accepting just \n is good practice too
23:37:33 <alise> liberal/conservative etc
23:37:48 <pikhq_> Another Internet standard!
23:38:40 <AnMaster> how many bytes does this waste?
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23:38:49 <alise> in an already-textual protocol :)
23:38:59 <alise> depends on the transmission size.
23:39:02 <alise> I'd have said tab-separated arguments...
23:39:09 <alise> But who knows what arguments I'll accept?
23:39:12 <AnMaster> how many percent of the transatlantic internet capacity then?
23:39:13 <alise> Integers, strings, definitely.
23:39:20 <alise> AnMaster: Dunno; I'm not omnipotent.
23:39:57 <pikhq_> Yes, it would. Unfortunately, nearly impossible to observe.
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23:40:06 <alise> Say, how do you pronounce "Belial"?
23:40:10 <alise> Surely pikhq_ will know. SINCE HE'S CHRISTIAN AND ALL
23:40:34 <alise> YOU WILL SUFFER AND BURN IN HELL
23:40:39 <alise> (I'll be there to comfort you though)
23:40:53 <pikhq_> I'LL MAKE SURE YOU GET IT WORSE
23:41:01 <AnMaster> pikhq_, sample 2 seconds of data at some central router (this will give you several GB to analyse). Look for CRLF with a context of printable ASCII around it
23:41:06 <alise> pikhq_: But that's religious discrimination!
23:41:12 <alise> ...then again, so is Hell.
23:41:14 <AnMaster> sure it misses UTF-16 and it might give some false positives too
23:41:21 <AnMaster> but it should give an interesting number anyway
23:41:37 <pikhq_> ... Does *anyone* transmit UTF-16 over the Internet?
23:42:06 <AnMaster> pikhq_, wait, you are christian?
23:42:07 <alise> I have filenames with +, Unicode, spaces and two dots on my hard drive
23:42:11 <alise> people must hate me <3
23:42:35 <alise> AnMaster: <##>. <title>.flac
23:42:47 <alise> combined with song title with a "+" in it and also foreign-language text
23:43:05 <alise> Sgeo_: a very bad man.
23:45:16 <alise> They probably need a penis to PUNISH THE UNBELIEVERS.
23:45:17 <AnMaster> alise, well you seemed to imply that
23:45:26 <alise> So what's a good sound output library?
23:45:30 <AnMaster> alise, no I meant "men" as in "mankind"
23:45:31 <alise> Xine sucks, GStreamer is pretty sucky
23:45:43 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:45:48 <alise> Not as far as I know :P
23:46:03 <AnMaster> alise, wasn't it said that "hell is other people"?
23:46:21 <alise> Wow, GStreamer's core is 60 thousand lines of code. They call this "lightweight".
23:46:37 <alise> Heck, and I'm aiming for Belial to be... maybe 5,000 lines if it gets well-featured?
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23:46:45 <AnMaster> alise, good sound output library: openal
23:46:54 <Sgeo_> alise, there is someone right next to me who hasn't logged in for 14 years
23:46:56 <alise> OpenAL is more targeted to things that actually generate sounds. 3D sound and stuff.
23:47:00 <alise> Plus it goes through like 50 other layers.
23:47:13 <alise> I'd prefer something more like "decodes => sends to output device (ALSA, OSS or PulseAudio, say)".
23:47:13 <AnMaster> alise, well that is a downside
23:47:23 <alise> Sgeo_: And has just logged in now?
23:47:26 <alise> Or has not logged in?
23:47:30 <AnMaster> alise, my openal sends it to alsa iirc
23:47:35 <alise> ...your character stays there when you log out?
23:47:44 <Sgeo_> alise, well, they are moved to their home
23:47:45 <AnMaster> alise, and ~/.openalrc uses S-Expressions unless I misremember
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23:47:50 <Sgeo_> If they have no home, they're moved to Limbo
23:48:04 <AnMaster> alise, which increase awesomeness a lot
23:48:27 <alise> It occurs to me that nobody programs in C any more.
23:48:38 <alise> They program in Modern C, which has several oddities such as:
23:48:38 <Sgeo_> Not sure what the guest situation is, but I'm pretty sure they need to still exist somewhere
23:49:00 <alise> Header files must begin with "#ifndef FOO\n#define FOO\n" and end with "#endif".
23:49:10 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, which virtual world is this?
23:49:15 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, LambdaMOO
23:49:26 <alise> what if too many guests log in at a time? :P
23:49:28 <Sgeo_> alise, Yellow_Guest is currently residing in Limbo
23:49:34 <alise> Sgeo_: Steal all the dormant person's clothes!
23:49:43 <Sgeo_> alise, then I think that no more guests can come on
23:49:46 <AnMaster> <alise> Header files must begin with "#ifndef FOO\n#define FOO\n" and end with "#endif". <-- not as such. Public ones yes
23:49:50 <Sgeo_> There are 32 guests
23:49:51 <alise> AnMaster: It's a joke
23:50:05 <AnMaster> alise, there is the "multiple internal include with different defines"
23:50:49 <alise> also, a_b_c_d should be read as a::b::c::d, unless it's a::b::c-d. or any other combination :D
23:51:16 <alise> Actually, it occurs to me that the "f (x, y, z)" style is actually a good idea these days: since the function names are so long, they no longer feel tightly attached to their arguments.
23:51:43 <alise> mylib_set_munge_param ("foo", 2);
23:51:52 <alise> the name of the function dwarfs the space anyway
23:51:56 <AnMaster> alise, I tend to use short function names. Like fspace_set() rather than fungespace_write_value_to_cell
23:52:14 <alise> Mm, but for things that expect to be used in other stuff you at least need namespace_.
23:52:41 <alise> yeah, I was considering "Belphegor" with bg_ prefix.
23:52:56 <Sgeo_> Neither of the people here with me have anything
23:53:00 <AnMaster> now I hope that thing won't use more than one bg_
23:53:02 <Sgeo_> Maybe they were robbed blind years ago
23:53:18 <alise> AnMaster: Well, this is the thing: "bg_" is probably not so uncommon.
23:53:57 <alise> There's only 676 two-character prefixes you can use there.
23:54:01 <alise> And, well, birthday paradox...
23:54:09 <AnMaster> alise, so bg_6bd133e4_4df5_4c08_a2d7_d15252f8024f
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23:54:39 <alise> Sgeo_: No way times a billion.
23:54:55 <alise> You should kill yourself now.
23:54:57 <pikhq_> alise: Create a systems programming language with proper namespace handling.
23:55:05 <alise> pikhq_: I should call it "Go"
23:55:18 <Sgeo_> If you really want to commit MOO suicide, please follow the instructions in `help suicide'.
23:55:23 <pikhq_> And be sure to modify the linker so that it actually *works*
23:55:29 <pikhq_> alise: Go uses the C linker still.
23:55:54 <alise> pikhq_: It uses the Plan 9 linker.
23:56:22 <alise> Sgeo_: ha, what does it tell you to do
23:56:51 <pikhq_> alise: Isn't that still a C linker?
23:57:10 <alise> pikhq_: Well, /technically/... except for that it's totally different.
23:57:11 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/986506
23:57:17 <pikhq_> (granted, written by someone with a clue, but still)
23:57:40 <pikhq_> alise: So, it actually handles things like namespacing and typed symbols correctly?
23:57:40 <alise> More than one clue!
23:57:49 <alise> iirc, the plan 9 linker has namespaces.
23:57:56 <alise> I think it uses \cdot or something as the character for them xD
23:58:01 <alise> I am /not sure/ though.
23:58:06 <alise> Please don't get too excited.
23:58:09 <pikhq_> Oh, right. Plan 9 was written by someone with nearly *all* the clues. :P
23:58:18 <alise> I AM HOG THE CLUES
23:58:47 <alise> pikhq_: Some of the clueosity in the linkers:
23:58:48 <alise> In practice, l options are rarely necessary as the header files for the libraries cause their archives to be included automatically in the load (see 2c(1)). For example, any program that includes header file libc.h causes the loader to search the C library /$objtype/lib/libc.a. Also, the loader creates an undefined symbol _main (or _mainp if profiling is enabled) to force loading of the startup linkage from the C library.
23:58:53 <alise> It's something like
23:58:56 <alise> #pragma lib "libc.a"
23:58:59 <Sgeo_> Ok, I almost walked off the edge of the world by accident
23:59:07 <alise> it's actually literally /$objtype/lib/libc.a