00:00:24 augur: that equation is simple 00:00:32 not all are 00:00:44 Interesting thing about -ms: it defaults to using blank spaces to separate paragraphs, not paragraph indentation. 00:00:52 s_n RIGHT = n/2 RIGHT ( a_1 RIGHT a_n RIGHT 00:00:58 er, minus the last right 00:01:03 sure, simple equation 00:01:11 but eh.. 00:01:12 i dont know 00:01:15 either way its cool 00:01:19 it'd be nice to have on a blackboard 00:01:40 i'd love to have a giant interactive blackboard 00:02:00 pikhq: 10pt or 12pt, which would you rather read a mathematical paper in (disregarding 11pt) 00:03:14 Probably 12. 00:03:26 Oh wait: 00:03:27 Use the PP macro to create indented paragraphs, and the LP macro to 00:03:27 create paragraphs with no initial indent. 00:03:36 pikhq: Yeah; 10 is better for two-column text, I think. 00:04:51 I wonder if one should adjust the initial line indent when changing the font size. 00:04:52 Probably. 00:09:36 Ugh, why does -ms have to share a name with Microsoft's acronym. 00:09:41 So hard to google for. 00:10:10 Grrrr 00:10:22 The T-Mobile N1 users have Froyo access without rooting 00:10:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:10:34 I'm using an AT&T N1, and don't feel like rooting 00:10:37 -!- augur has joined. 00:14:40 I don't suppose anyone has used -ms? 00:17:09 alise, challenge? 00:17:42 ? 00:17:47 augur: Challenge? 00:17:56 want to take one? :D 00:18:00 its a minor little programming challenge 00:18:03 but 00:18:11 If you solve my roff problem, sure. 00:18:23 whats roff 00:18:38 Typesetting system. The reason UNIX was created. 00:18:50 "man groff_ms" in particular is the bit I'm having troubles with. 00:18:51 lol 00:19:05 I want to put a date in my title header, but not on the cover page; the two macros it lists for adding dates to the cover page don't work. 00:19:15 augur: no quite literally the reason it was created 00:19:22 it was what they got the grant money for 00:19:36 interesting 00:20:19 so what's the challenge 00:21:07 gimme a sec 00:26:07 augur: 00:26:30 cos that was 300 00:29:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:29:46 ok ehird 00:29:50 alise, rather 00:31:14 alisey hird 00:31:26 :P 00:34:58 http://filebin.ca/zuput/example.pdf Some more roff fluff, and the code that generated it: http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg 00:35:03 pikhq: ^ How does the font size in this look? 00:36:37 alise: Huh. Groff actually produces reasonable output. 00:36:42 alise, ok, here goes 00:36:47 pikhq: Yep, groff + eqn. 00:36:56 I actually prefer how it sets the derivative definition to how TeX does it. 00:36:57 It's no TeX, but that's not bad typesetting. 00:37:08 The input was easy to do, too: http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg 00:37:33 pikhq: Well it WAS written by James Clark, Mr. "I was educated at Charterhouse. I read Mathematics and Philosophy at Merton College, Oxford, where I obtained Class I Honours." http://jclark.com/jjc-wg8.jpg 00:37:38 assume you have custom-definable pair data types, and custom atomic values 00:37:42 alise: Ah, yes. 00:37:57 pikhq: Anyway, think I should up the font size? Please say no; I'd have to adjust all the other values accordingly. 00:38:13 Looks nice and readable. 00:38:20 It's 10pt, funnily enough. 00:38:34 I definitely like http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg more than the equivalent LaTeX you'd need to generate that. The boilerplate is tedious. 00:38:38 and assume you have already one kind of pair type, call it a normal pair, denoted by (x,y) 00:38:44 Although plain TeX might be better, it's a bit bare bones. 00:38:52 augur: So we are assuming a language? 00:38:59 I get the strong feeling that groff takes inspiration from TeX in its output. 00:39:03 Custom-definable pair data types -- what do you mean? 00:39:11 make up the language as you go, so long as it fits the constraints defined 00:39:13 as in you can specify N types 00:39:16 (for instance, it seems to be using the same line-breaking algorithm) 00:39:24 pikhq: Actually, its output is almost identical to traditional troff. 00:39:36 custom-definable, like haskell's compound data types, but pairs only, restricted to two values exactly 00:39:49 think of them as tagged cons pairs, if you want 00:39:57 pikhq: Two files for your consideration: http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/trofftut/trofftut.ps http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps 00:40:08 augur: Okay, so, axioms: 00:40:15 alise: So, it's more that only real computer scientists can do computer typesetting well, then? 00:40:46 (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type) s.t. for all (x:A, y:B), (x,y):C. 00:40:59 custom atomic values -- like Lisp symbols? 00:41:05 pikhq: Pretty much. 00:41:06 sure 00:41:10 augur: or numbers? 00:41:13 Or any sort of atom? 00:41:20 Basically any predefined infinite type, right? 00:41:21 or like haskell's atomic values. data Blip = Bop | Dorp 00:41:33 Ah. 00:41:34 i also dont care about the types in the pairs. they dont have to be typed, honestly. 00:41:42 the pairs themselves are typed tho 00:41:44 The axiom, then, is that "we have type definition". 00:41:46 and assume you have already one kind of pair type, call it a normal pair, denoted by (x,y) 00:41:47 so you can pattern match 00:41:48 Polymorphic? 00:41:57 if you want 00:42:00 I don't get it. 00:42:04 whatever works for the task 00:42:08 How is there any other type of pair other than the normal pair (x,y)? 00:42:18 data Flip x y 00:42:23 augur, pikhq: Y'know, I'm doing some FAIRLY major restructuring of Op. 13 00:42:25 is not data Blop x y 00:42:25 JUST FOR YOU 00:42:32 even if x and y are integers 00:42:44 alise: I imagine TeX handles complex things a bit better than it, but honestly, troff's output is quite nice. It does things right. 00:42:57 they're pairs, right? ones a Flip the others a Blop, but they're pairs. they're just different "kinds" of pairs 00:43:51 pikhq: Yeah; I can see myself using this for little notes. 00:43:53 Gregor: Awesome. 00:43:53 augur: So: 00:43:57 (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type, C*: A,B => C) s.t. for all (a:A, b:B, c:A, d:B), (C*(a,b) = C*(c,d)) <=> (a = c /\ b = d). 00:44:09 i dont know what that means :P 00:44:24 We can then define normal pair ourselves, so. 00:44:34 oh, yeah, a normal pair is just, say 00:44:39 data Pair x y 00:45:02 anyway 00:45:04 so the challenge is this 00:45:09 assuming that you have that stuff 00:45:13 (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type, C*: A,B => C) s.t. for all (a:A, b:B, c:A, d:B), (C*(a,b) = C*(c,d)) <=> (a = c /\ b = d). 00:45:13 (N:nat) => (A:Type, A*: nat (< N) => A). 00:45:31 The latter lets us have "type 3" along with the values 3*(0), 3*(1), 3*(2). 00:45:36 augur: Okay. Go ahead. 00:45:57 how can you define a collection of tail recursive operations over pairs (of one type or another as you see fit), that will let you replace an arbitrary item in some complex normal pair 00:46:10 e.g. i want to replace the 3 in (1,((2,3),4)) with a 0 00:46:20 you could define something like this: 00:46:38 So this is just a language-inventing challenge? 00:46:38 SwapAll x = 0 00:47:22 SwapLeft (x,y) = (SwapAll x, y) OR (SwapLeft x, y) OR (SwapRight x, y) 00:47:38 Your challenge is too vague for me to do anything. 00:47:44 I do not know what I am supposed to be doing. Defining a language? 00:47:44 SwapRight (x,y) = (x, SwapAll y) OR (x, SwapLeft y) OR (x, SwapRight Y) 00:47:57 define the operations 00:48:29 i just defined three operations there that, with appropriate choice of the alternatives, will let you swap the 3 for a 0 in (1,((2,3),4)) 00:48:49 Sorry, you're going to have to be more specific. 00:48:52 Define the operations in what language? 00:49:00 Where is the part that I get "marked" on? 00:49:01 i dont care 00:49:05 just make it formal enough to grasp 00:49:08 So I can use an existing language? 00:49:55 SwapRight (1,((2,3),4)) => (1, SwapLeft ((2,3), 4)) => (1, (SwapRight (2,3), 4)) => (1,((2,SwapAll 3), 4)) => (1,((2,0),4)) 00:50:28 I am still left baffled at 00:50:32 1. what exactly SwapRight does; and 00:50:35 2. what I am supposed to do. 00:51:09 SwapRight (x,y) says "do some swapping in the right (y) element of the pair (x,y), replacing something there with the number 0" 00:51:16 it gives you three ways you can do this 00:51:27 you can swap something in the left of y 00:51:32 you can swap something in the right of y 00:51:36 or you can swap the whole of y 00:51:53 think of it as an alternative in a rewriting system 00:53:29 augur: I see. 00:53:32 How does it decide which? 00:53:41 pikhq: Give me one good reason not to write my own typesetting system! 00:54:08 eh. who cares. it's not a targetting replacement. the choice is free, and whichever choice is made results in whichever replacements 00:54:40 if you want to replace 3, thats the series of choices you'd have to make 00:55:14 alise: I can't. 00:55:19 but, crucially, that definition is fully recursive 00:55:33 because the swap operations are applying to deeper and deeper parts of the pair 00:55:38 pikhq: ^_^ 00:55:48 pikhq: This means I get to learn about typography and things! 00:55:54 alise: Huzzah. 00:56:17 And, and macros, and syntax, and... 00:56:52 pikhq: Of course, now the thing is to resist all temptations to reverse-engineer. 00:57:01 Err 00:57:03 pikhq: Of course, now the thing is to resist all temptations to over-engineer. 00:57:12 Yes. 00:57:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:01:09 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:01:09 I do, however, like lout's functional take on stuff. 01:01:26 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 01:02:06 alise: reason to not write typesetting system: you could use TeX 01:02:15 What's wrong with overengineering, said the creator of PSOX 01:05:14 Mathnerd314: Where's the fun in that? 01:07:48 G.E.B. was typeset with some system called SMUT before anyone else was doing it. 01:11:03 ok; I must admit that TeX formulas are horrible compared to OOO's :p 01:12:09 Horrible? 01:12:11 Like howso? 01:12:19 In typesetting output? If you think so you are insane. 01:12:23 In input format? Ehh, point. 01:12:27 But it /is/ very extensible... 01:13:43 yeah, in input 01:13:57 OOO could be made extensible as well, I think 01:14:07 alise: nothing? 01:14:10 OO.o sucks though. 01:14:13 no ideas? :( 01:14:18 augur: augur: I see. 01:14:18 How does it decide which? 01:14:28 i answered that! 01:14:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:14:41 -!- augur has joined. 01:14:49 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:14:53 i answered that. :| 01:15:02 doing parsing is *not that hard* 01:15:04 you did not 01:15:08 Mathnerd314: of course not. 01:15:17 i did! 01:15:46 you dont decide. you do whatever you want. the choices you make lead to different replacements. its not a targetted replacement _algorithm_, its just a series of operations 01:16:02 sort of like with a formal grammar 01:16:22 IF you want to produce this or that sentence, then you'd have to make these choices of rule application 01:16:41 alise: what stages would/will your typesetting system use? 01:16:45 what the algorithm is for making that choice, well, thats the parsing problem and thats not the goal here 01:16:56 the goal is the definition of the possible choices 01:17:07 Mathnerd314: Stages defined howso? 01:17:15 augur: Would you be upset if I said I thought your problem was boring? :( 01:17:33 nope 01:17:57 augur: >_> Sorry. 01:18:04 I'm a bit tired mind. 01:18:05 ill give you a solution 01:18:08 Maybe tomorrow 01:18:13 s/$/./ 01:18:32 alise: e.g., TeX's stages are input->macros->lines->pages->output 01:18:49 here is the solution i know of 01:19:35 if we let * be the operator for a special "continuation" pair 01:19:42 Push x = x*1 01:19:44 Mathnerd314: well, input -> obviously 01:19:46 Pop x*1 = x 01:19:57 then parser which would parse things like {} and . -- but we'd handle defined characters earlier 01:20:02 things like 01:20:03 "abc" 01:20:06 would expand to 01:20:08 Left1 (x,y)*z = x*(y,z) 01:20:09 .ldq abc .rdq 01:20:13 for pretty quotes 01:20:15 at this time 01:20:18 Left2 = x*(y,z) = (x,y)*z 01:20:18 or, wait, no 01:20:22 it'd parse it into objects 01:20:27 /then/ it'd do that 01:20:37 commands like .foo {abc} would be seen as functions transforming a typesetting-object to another one 01:20:38 Right1 (x,y)*z = y*(z,x) 01:20:43 Right2 y*(z,x) = (x,y)*z 01:20:45 maybe a clearer pipeline: input->tokens->conditionals->macro expansion->boxes->lines->pages->output 01:20:46 End. 01:20:47 then ->pages->output 01:20:55 {abc} would basically be a box 01:21:02 this is basically the lout system, I'd differentiate it somehow 01:21:26 Ensure that fancy quotes and ligatures are disabled when fixed pitch fonts are being used 01:22:28 2600 doesn't disable ligatures with fixed pitch fonts, and that is a problem 01:22:31 zzo38: Fixed pitch fonts won't be being used, presumably -- if you would use a fixed pitch font, why use a typesetter? 01:22:36 Or do you mean in e.g. verbatim code snippet sections? 01:22:40 In which case, yes, I agree. 01:22:52 2600 the magazine? Or some other 2600? 01:22:58 Yes, I mean in small sections embedded in the document, such as verbatim code snippet section and stuff like that 01:23:03 Yes, I mean 2600 magazine 01:23:54 my ideal pipeline would be input->program->{libraries}->execute->output 01:24:01 Mathnerd314: A goal with my system would be to support easy preprocessors, such that you can have things like mathematics typesetting as separate programs that scan through the text, and look for their commands and then rewrite their contents with more primitive drawing commands. 01:24:32 alise: issat make sense? 01:24:39 So you'd have something like "mathset foo | refset | tableset | typeset". 01:24:45 augur: Yes. 01:24:52 augur: Sort of. 01:25:02 on top of that, just add a rule 01:25:12 Swap x*y => 0*y 01:25:39 so now to replace the 3 in (1,((2,3),4)): 01:26:45 and uh ... replacing the push rule's 1 with an @ because im na idiot 01:26:59 http://i.imgur.com/ikfxw.png 01:27:04 Oldie but a goodie 01:27:52 (1,((2,3),4)) ==Push==> (1,((2,3),4))*@ ==Right==> ((2,3),4)*(@,1) ==Left==> (2,3)*(4,(@,1)) ==Right==> 3*((4,(@,1)),2) ==Swap==> 0*((4,(@,1)),2) 01:28:13 and i trust you can figure out how to reverse this now to pull the shit back to get (1,((2,0),4)) 01:28:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:29:45 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex. 01:30:44 comex mexicom 01:31:36 my password on normish used to be comexico 01:31:43 ehird came up with it, I think 01:31:45 for some context, alise: traditional proof systems only allow "shallow inferences" which are essentially just operations at the root of the structure being manipulated 01:31:48 when e generated my account 01:32:07 yeah i did 01:32:12 so if you want to replace an element deep inside the object being manipulated, you have to figure out some way of bringing that object to the "surface" 01:32:42 but in a non-destructive way, so you dont loose any information and can recover the original object, modulo the swap 01:32:52 http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-05-19-beartato-guesswhat.gif 01:33:00 Maybe it's safe to reveil what my password for Circe's SVN was 01:33:26 cyborg surgery! :D 01:33:35 Sgeo_: "Maybe"? 01:33:36 MAYBE? 01:33:38 jesus christ man. 01:33:50 comex: you should move to comexico and sign letters with 01:33:54 Comex, 01:33:58 alise: did you write this comic 01:34:00 Mexico, 01:34:03 i feel like you would write something like this 01:34:06 Com. 01:34:10 augur: no it's nedroid.com 01:34:14 but yes it is totally my style. 01:34:16 (except better) 01:34:19 maybe you're nedroid! 01:34:24 no i don't think so 01:34:26 maybe nedroid is you 01:34:32 IN THE FUTURE 01:35:09 Clearly not; I would never make such a blatant error as to refer to the INTEGER OF PI: http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-05-12-beartato-bignerd.gif 01:35:17 Unless he was talking about actually getting the computer to calculate... "3" 01:35:32 ctcpgod 01:40:07 hmm, no ##grammarnazis channel 01:42:56 thank god. 01:44:00 well, I wanted to know whether it was "negative one bean" or "negative one beans" 01:44:22 Good question. 01:44:51 Mathnerd314: If I was giving a figure, I might use the latter, but as a list perhaps "Negative two beans, negative one bean, no beans, one bean, two beans, ...". 01:44:52 Not sure. 01:44:59 bean, I think. 01:46:25 Mathnerd314: "Negative one bean", thinks my Oxford-educated (okay this is becoming a bit of a stretch) friend. 01:46:34 (Although that was preceded with an "I don't know.") 01:48:08 Singular "bean" 01:48:17 I actually looked this up at some point because it's really wonky :P 01:48:36 From an English standpoint, it's read as negative (one bean), not (negative one) bean 01:49:39 (Mind you, "looked it up" = asked my mom the librarian and later saw that "the tuberwebs" agrees :P ) 01:49:45 it's all moot since you'll all die from the antimatter explosion anyway 01:51:51 According to Road to Reality book, "negative one proton" would be "one virtual anti-proton" 01:51:52 True 01:52:23 But I like "protoff" for anti-protons 01:52:38 lol 01:53:00 Anti-electrons already has a different name which is "positron", so perhaps anti-protons also 01:53:15 BUT WHAT ABOUT ANTI-POSITRONS. 01:53:28 * Gregor punches alise 01:53:34 Just "electrons", I think? 01:53:38 Gregor: hey i was going to swat him 01:53:56 Tremulous map downloads take a while. 01:54:08 SgeoN1: So does your FACE. 01:55:02 How to download curl? It doesn't work 01:56:37 -!- coppro has joined. 01:56:51 zzo38: curl -O http://curl.haxx.se/download/curl-7.20.1.tar.gz 01:57:45 *facepalm* 01:58:02 I was going to do that too :p 01:58:11 But I don't have curl already 01:58:16 And anyways that server seems down 01:58:33 zzo38: let me break this to you gently... 01:58:41 I have wget 01:58:49 i think Gregor knew that 01:59:00 Perhaps this mirror will work 01:59:08 oerjan: I think so too, probably it is joke? 01:59:31 I think most probably, it is joke. 01:59:57 Yes 02:00:06 zzo38: source or binary? 02:00:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:00:34 Win32 binary 02:01:33 I use this: http://www.gknw.net/mirror/curl/win32/curl-7.20.1-devel-mingw32.zip 02:02:39 That's good 02:02:46 Now I have curl and wget 02:04:04 Now I think I just need to add it to the PATH 02:07:34 20min ddownload for a freaking map 02:09:18 It works 02:09:24 http://sprunge.us/dfZA 02:15:37 -!- augur has joined. 02:15:45 Is it good? 02:16:04 A similar way could be written for UNIX systems too 02:16:40 It's a decent shell script. 02:17:21 o hai 02:18:24 Anyone here familiar with lout? 02:21:05 I don't familiar with lout 02:21:39 alise: you're a lout 02:22:12 Indeed, but unrelatedly, the typesetting system ... 02:22:35 Different Linux distribution might use different code-names schemes for their versions, but I have my own scheme if I make Linux distribution (probably I will start when I get another computer to test it with, which might be in a few months since that is when Free Geek will provide one): 02:23:28 First version can be called "Initial", second version "Illimitable Illithid", fourth version "Interrupt Vector", sixth version "Vancouver Island", do you think this is good scheme? Do you like this? 02:25:14 And I don't want to include any non-free 02:25:42 Here's a good naming scheme 02:25:42 1 02:25:42 2 02:25:43 3 02:25:43 4 02:25:44 I already have the ISO for Linux From Scratch, but I didn't record a DVD with it yet 02:25:44 5 02:25:44 6 02:25:46 7 02:25:48 8 02:25:50 ... 02:25:52 G_64 02:25:54 ... 02:26:06 zzo38: Roman numeral backronyms, eh? 02:26:24 I doubt I (or anyone else) would ever make a Linux distribution as many versions as high as G_64?? 02:26:27 pikhq: Yes 02:26:35 Nice. 02:26:48 Debian uses Toy Story, and Ubuntu uses two word both start with one same letter 02:27:00 Well, if Slackware decides to do another version skip, it might skip straight to G_64. 02:27:38 Maybe, but I don't think so, because such numbers are probably too large to use in a computer program in the version number field 02:27:41 zzo38: Ubuntu uses [Adjective] [Animal] alliteratively 02:27:58 alise: Yes, that's what I meant 02:28:04 SYMBOLIC version = SymbolicIndex(GrahamsNumber, SymbolicNumber(64)); 02:28:11 SYMBOLIC version = SymbolicIndex(GrahamsNumbers, SymbolicNumber(64)); 02:37:32 I wrote a program called "Field Manipulator" do you think this is OK? http://sprunge.us/GWRY 02:38:10 Not sure what it does but there you go 02:38:41 It does field manipulator, that is what it does! 02:38:47 Article Adverb Adjective Animals 02:39:21 zzo38: wut/ 02:40:13 zzo38: You should write your own typesetting system. 02:40:14 I bet it'd be awesome. 02:41:19 If you want the first field of a file and separated by colons, you do: fm -t58 Tmx 02:41:32 That's how you do it. 02:42:08 And if you want to add zero at the start of each line, you do: fm m "0" 02:42:15 See? Now you know. 02:42:39 Cool. 02:44:51 alise: I probably don't write a typesetting system, although I have done the stuff that is used before a typesetting systems 02:47:50 zzo38: Just make it output postscript >_> 02:55:29 Make what output postscript? 02:56:08 zzo38: A typesetting system. 02:56:11 Then it's "easy" 02:57:50 I don't plan to write a typesetting system 02:58:03 But I might do so if I change my mind 02:59:55 I want to port ADVENT to something. 03:00:14 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:12:33 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...). 03:21:14 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:50:27 augur, pikhq: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp4.ogg . Op. 13 will probably be in two movements maybe perhaps. 03:52:09 I apparently cannot has HTTP ATM. 03:52:22 I'll grant you an opinion next time I can has bandwidth. 03:52:24 lawlz 03:52:50 Basically, think "the non-stormy parts of WIPP3, rearranged to flow hopefully well together" :P 03:52:57 Mmm. 03:53:23 I'm defining the parts with the repeating arpeggio in the right hand as "stormy" btw :P 03:53:39 Mmkay. 03:53:43 Also, ABOVE RECORDED WHILE NUDE. 03:53:46 Just FYI. 03:53:54 :P 03:54:43 ...:| 03:54:46 WHY DID YOU SAY THAT. 03:55:00 I felt it was important information :P 03:56:51 Sleep time nao. 03:56:52 Bye! 03:56:55 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:57:44 My God he's sleeping on a Saturday night. 03:57:59 Erm. Sunday morning. 03:58:02 *Still*. 03:58:25 NOT ON THE SABBATH 04:00:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:08:37 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:10:57 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:12:13 Port ADVENT into TAVSYS 04:12:33 I must confess, I read that as "Port ADVENT into TARDIS". 04:12:58 What is TARDIS? 04:13:19 ... You're kidding. 04:13:20 -!- gm|lap has joined. 04:13:32 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:13:38 BUT WHO WAS PHONE (BOOTH) 04:13:57 Which phone booth did you mean? The phone booth or the phone booth? 04:14:03 the TARDIS 04:14:08 zzo38: You. Watch Doctor Who. Now. 04:14:16 I don't have that tape 04:14:19 (don't worry about seeing the whole thing, unless you have a couple years to spare) 04:14:45 Or perhaps I do have that tape, but I don't think I have that tape 04:15:22 Perhaps port ADVEN into TAVSYS and also port ADVENT into TARDIS 04:15:28 It's a TV series. The most popular one in Britain, last I check. 04:15:34 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:15:34 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 04:15:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:15:40 I know that much already 04:15:57 But I don't live in Britain 04:16:00 The TARDIS is one of the most recognisable features of it. 04:16:13 It is also much-beloved by many American sci-fi fans. 04:16:20 OK 04:18:02 But I still don't have it 04:18:11 Obtain it. 04:18:15 * Sgeo_ has heard of Dr. Who, but never saw it 04:18:16 And watch it. 04:18:20 Where can I watch? 04:18:25 And where do I start? 04:18:43 Sgeo_: You need to purchase the tape, of course! 04:18:52 Perhaps you need more than one tape 04:18:54 Not purchasing anything 04:18:57 -!- augur has joined. 04:18:58 The easiest way to start is to start with Series 1 of the recent reboot. 04:19:06 I'm not sure of an easy place to obtain it. 04:19:17 Though I'm sure BitTorrent has a nearly-comprehensive collection. 04:19:27 Sgeo_: If you live in Britain perhaps you can see 04:19:34 But I don't know because I don't have at Britain 04:19:38 I don't 04:19:50 That's what I thought. 04:19:51 * Sgeo_ doesn't feel like torrenting illegal stuff 04:19:53 Some 100G for the whole thing. 04:20:17 Not all episodes have had official releases. 04:20:34 A few of the early episodes have no known copies, sadly. 04:21:11 New episodes can be found on BBCA on Sunday, IIRC. 04:21:25 clearly dr who is a secret alien plot to make humans invent time travel. 04:21:37 so they can find those original episodes. 04:22:12 Didn't say I wouldn't be willing to watch illegal, just that I don't want to torrent illegally 04:23:52 Now I invented Spider Tarot 04:24:14 spider, rider, what's the difference 04:24:16 Majors can wrap (the fool is zero) (both for movement and for removal), but minors do not wrap. 04:24:37 Majors can count as any suit for movement (but not for removal). 04:25:10 If you have rods and majors mixed together you can move them all at once, but if you have rods and cups together, or rods and cups ad majors together, you cannot move them all together. 04:25:17 There. That's all. 04:25:59 Is this good enough? 04:28:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has left (?). 04:42:58 WTF 04:43:13 I just heard music that I thought could only be heard in Second Life 04:43:51 Any music can go anywhere, I suppose 04:44:26 If the music doesn't come from second life, its waveform will degrade midair. 04:44:27 Find me Foxyflwr CUre's "Anyway" on the web, please 04:44:41 Doubt you'll find it 04:44:53 Or "Arthur Nix" 04:45:09 Hm, mistaken about the latter 04:45:20 http://www.last.fm/music/Jupiter+Sunrise/_/Arthur+Nix 04:45:39 nix on the arthur 04:45:41 So I guess the tune I heard might be somewhere on the web 04:46:39 If we had the power to trap anything that could hurt a human being inside a jar, send it far from Earth, and watch it explode in the Sun, to the cheers of everyone 04:46:43 But alas that can't be done 04:47:12 Human being can hurt human being 04:47:18 Hooray for a dull and uninteresting life? 04:47:20 And surely that isn't the good idea anyways 04:47:32 For various reasons 04:48:11 * Sgeo_ is surprised no one went for "human beings inside jars?" or something 04:48:35 http://s12.last.fm/preview/110865117/154/0020389183/11/741308676.mp3 04:48:57 one of the mad scientists in girl genius had that 04:49:29 dr. beetle 04:51:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:02:59 -!- weinjared has joined. 05:07:42 -!- weinjared has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:15:35 -!- augur has joined. 05:35:09 augur: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp4.ogg . Op. 13 will probably be in two movements maybe perhaps. 05:35:51 Gregor: not right now :P 05:35:58 Well foo to you too! 05:36:33 Wgetting now. 05:36:51 Will listen after this episode of Darker Than Black: 黒の契約者 05:37:06 (yes, the *actual title of the series* is in two different languages) 05:37:09 Ooooooh 05:37:13 Darker than Black 05:37:16 That's pretty darn dark. 05:37:31 It's a fairly dark series, in all honesty. 05:39:59 Y'know, alt-tab really ought to change tabs instead of windows. 05:40:06 I mean, clearly what you want is an alternate tab. 05:40:27 Clearly. 05:44:26 * pikhq listens 05:49:24 Now it feels like it needs a second movement. 05:50:08 Gregor: In some Windows programs CTRL+TAB changes tabs instead of windows 05:50:26 pikhq: Yes. Yes it does. I haven't written it yet :P 05:50:57 Whoo. 05:51:37 zzo38: not unique to Windows 05:53:38 coppro: You might be correct, of course. But I don't know much about others. I do know ALT+TAB is same in Ubuntu because that is what is used at Free Geek, and I sometimes volunteer there 05:54:02 it is by default... but like almost all things Linux, it is configurable 05:55:27 It is probably the same so that if you used Windows, you would be able to do some things in same way. ALT+F4 is also same way in Ubuntu. 05:55:41 One thing that doesn't work the same however, is double-clicking the control box does not do the same way as Windows 05:56:12 (But if I use Linux on my own computer, it would be my own distribution anyways and would be different) 05:56:27 zzo38: are you sure you aren't alise? 05:56:45 Of course, Mac OS Xasperating has ⌘-tab switch between PROGRAMS, and ⌘-backtick switch between windows WITHIN a program, which is godawful 05:56:46 coppro: I think so! 05:56:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:57:02 And I use ctrl-tab to switch between virtual desktops, and ctrl-pg{up,down} to switch tabs. 05:57:20 For sure I am not someone else other than who I am 05:57:40 Also, 1 = 1 05:57:46 Gregor: Yes 05:58:11 Did you think I am alise for some reason? 05:58:33 Gregor: only because you defined it that way 05:59:15 *ahem* 05:59:39 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:59:41 zzo38: "it would be my own distribution anyways" 05:59:48 coppro: zzo38 did the write-all-his-software-himself thing first, you know. alise just seems to have started copying him... 05:59:55 oh 06:00:01 I guess I fail then 06:00:07 Gregor: for example, I think Double x = 1.0 is not equal to Double y = 1.0 06:00:17 or at least thinking a lot about it 06:00:29 Mathnerd314: what are you talking about? 06:00:32 Mathnerd314: double x = the literal value 1.0 is equal to double y = the literal value 1.0 06:00:54 yes, but with autoboxing you get different refernces 06:01:14 Mathnerd314: What sort of shitty system are you using that's boxing your numbers and not overloading ==? 06:01:21 Java :p 06:01:26 Pfff. 06:01:26 Java 06:01:27 *hate* 06:02:07 but, you agree 1 = 1 only in some cases 06:02:27 other example: 1 meter != 1 second 06:02:40 In standard mathematics 1 = 1 is always, if using the standard definitions of the numbers and equals 06:03:14 well but mathematics is the king of overloading notation 06:03:16 right - if you define it that way 06:03:37 oerjan: Yes it is, but only when it is the way to do so 06:03:40 Or if they want to fuck with you. 06:04:46 although normally you'd try to avoid using notation that breaks something as fundamental as x = x 06:04:50 * Mathnerd314 sees bad images in his head 06:07:00 Mathnerd314: i'd suggest stopping whatever you're doing, then 06:07:15 not thinking is hard :p 06:07:28 yes. yes it is. 06:07:32 Is the bad bad, or good bad? 06:07:36 Like, bad as in "naughty"? 06:07:40 Because that's all good times. 06:08:01 good bad, I guess 06:08:39 Mathnerd314: let me guess, pikhq's comment made you apply rule 34 to the number 34. 06:08:48 yeah 06:08:57 something like that 06:09:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgo0CDL6bd0 06:09:33 What is rule 34 06:09:50 Hahaha 06:09:51 * Gregor runs away 06:09:56 If it exists, there is porn of it. 06:10:03 * Sgeo_ wonders what IRC porn looks like 06:10:12 See #asciipr0n 06:10:38 O, there is porn of porn. 06:10:49 And also porn of rule 34. 06:10:52 I said IRC porn. As in porn involving the protocol itself somehow, and not just porn transmitted via the protocol. Porn OF the protocol 06:11:00 Well, I don't watch pornography 06:11:14 Yet more evidence that you're not human :P 06:11:15 oh, NICK me baby 06:11:32 oerjan: Ooooh, that's hot. 06:11:33 Gregor: Do you mean me? 06:11:41 oerjan: I can't stop the \x01ACTION 06:12:00 zzo38: Very well-known that you aren't human. 06:12:22 But rather a species which is equally capable of communicating in English on IRC. 06:12:52 pikhq: No, I am human. (My D&D character isn't (neither is the paper in the printer), but that's irrelevant.) 06:13:02 A conversation I had a while ago: "My temporary apartment has a 30" TV with DVI, so I figured out how to use it as a monitor for my computer!" "Please tell me the first thing you did was watch porn on it." "I would deny it, but your clairvoyance is hilarious." 06:13:40 Gee using " to mean "inches" in the middle of a quote is really confusing :P 06:14:26 '' looks just like "? 06:14:48 Are you supposed to use ''? 06:15:17 I think so; it's "double prime" 06:15:40 Is "3 double prime" really the same as "3 inches" ... 06:16:33 3 inches, 3 seconds... I think that's it 06:16:40 (according to Wikipedia) 06:16:47 Hm, if ASCII didn't have " as a single character, what would C-like languages look like? 06:16:49 *brain axplote* 06:16:59 Sgeo_: Quite similar I imagine. 06:17:22 How would strings and characters be quoted? 06:17:36 they'd just use single quotes for all of them :p 06:17:43 Probably strings would be in '' and characters would have some special notation, maybe $c 06:18:09 or they'd use trigraphs *shudder* 06:18:14 I doubt they would have quoted characters if not for an abundance of available quotish characters. 06:18:53 Gregor: double prime means second division, more or less. (minuta secunda) 06:22:50 btw, I need something to do over the summer 06:22:55 ideas? 06:23:01 Mathnerd314, job 06:23:02 classes 06:23:10 Develop a Scottish accent. 06:23:11 volunteer work 06:23:23 learn a silly walk. 06:24:00 job - don't need one 06:24:17 classes - going to a camp (that only lasts 6 weeks) 06:24:34 accent - no idea of how to get one :p 06:24:53 "don't need one" is irrelevant. It gives you something to do 06:24:59 That's why I'm job hunting 06:25:00 "Develop", not "acquire" :P 06:25:31 well, I don't think I can get a job 06:26:37 * Mathnerd314 googles to figure out what oerjan means 06:26:54 Mathnerd314: Monty Python. 06:33:48 hmm, I already have some funny walks 06:33:58 *silly 06:34:15 well get a stipend to develop them, then 06:34:30 mostly from http://xkcd.com/245/ and variants 06:37:37 oerjan: what is it with everyone's obsession with money? 06:37:39 What is the factorial of the factorial of one half? 06:37:59 zzo38: look up gamma function 06:38:33 * Mathnerd314 asks wolfram|alpha 06:38:46 0.9571218... 06:39:04 With money you can buy happiness, no matter what all those la-dee-da imbeciles may think to the contrary. 06:39:15 I know gamma function I saw in Wikipedia 06:39:28 When I found the article for "Factorial" 06:39:36 But it didn't tell me the answer 06:39:40 * oerjan recalls a relevant mafalda cartoon 06:39:53 Because I am unsure how to calculate that equation 06:40:10 zzo38: i don't know how to easily calculate it, it requires integration or something... 06:40:34 and it isn't afaik built into haskell, which is my default calculator these days 06:40:35 Yes, it is integration and that is why I don't know how to calcualte it 06:40:52 zzo38: numerically, i presume 06:41:26 zzo38: ask wolfram|alpha, like I said: 0.9571218476267359902553835494511485301623742526696566054995... 06:41:29 or there may be a faster algorithm than going via the integral for all i know 06:43:04 Do you know the exact value (according to symbols such as square root, pi, e, etc)? 06:43:24 no; it's not an elementary function AFAIK 06:43:53 But it says it is sqrt(pi)/2 for (0.5)! on Wikipedia 06:44:44 zzo38: there _might_ be an exact formula for (0.5)!, but that only generalizes to numbers of the form n + 1/2 06:45:20 and sqrt(pi)/2 itself is transcendental, so taking the factorial of _that_ is unlikely to be nice 06:46:02 I tried using nInt command on TI-92, but it is slow. It does give a answer which is close to the correct one, but only in approximate form (and even the decimal places it does give is slightly wrong) 06:46:06 (Even for integers) 06:46:54 zzo38: there almost certainly isn't a much simpler general formula than the usual integral, or else it would have been listed 06:47:40 Yes 06:48:40 -!- augur has joined. 06:50:56 Now, time for a delicious pastrami reuben! 06:51:17 God dammit that sentence is making me hungry. 06:52:29 I read Road to Reality, it is clear how to do things like e^(d/dx) and how to put a matrix in the exponent, and so on 06:53:11 pikhq: On dark rye bread, hot 06:54:05 it's been a while since I've had a reuben... sauerkraut + meat + bread, right? 06:54:18 Basically. 06:54:33 Plus Russian/thousand island dressing and swiss cheese (but not for me) 06:54:56 And not just any meat and bread. 06:55:27 The meat has to be cured beef, e.g. pastrami or corned beef. 06:55:31 The bread has to be rye. 06:55:46 No other combination is a true reuben :) 06:56:33 Quite true. 06:56:55 why is it that describing food makes me want to eat it? :p 06:57:15 WHY IS IT THAT EATING THIS DELICIOUS REUBEN MAKES ME WANT TO EAT IT?!?!?! 06:57:59 no, like... you read a menu, you want to order something 06:58:59 you pass a restaurant, your stomach growls 06:59:02 Incidentally, I am eating this Reuben with a Sangria (sin alcohol), which is a surprisingly good combination. 07:01:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 07:06:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:09:23 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: reset). 07:15:05 * Mathnerd314 randomlu looks up some ip addresses 07:20:03 * Mathnerd314 listens to the crickets chirp 07:31:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Do you like(etc) Spider Tarot?). 07:42:51 -!- uorygl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:43:08 -!- uorygl has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:18 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 08:17:39 -!- cal153 has joined. 08:19:02 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:19:25 Gregor: listening 08:22:13 Gregor: the stuff around 1:55 needs some reworking 08:23:26 and the rest like it. the first thing i would do is ditch the secondary high notes that come in at like 2:00 with the 6 note downward sequence 08:24:03 it just sounds weird.. 08:24:37 secondly, change the high notes to something lower, i think, or something much higher. it sounds a bit honky tonky ish right now 08:25:10 well, no, just fuck around with that 6 note downward sequences really 08:25:17 everything in that area is weird 08:26:41 this song has quite an overtone of eh... how should i put it 08:26:45 insanity? 08:26:51 theres lots of tonal discord 08:31:13 I think that much is half the point. 08:32:19 yes, i like that mood. but i dont think it's as obvious as it should be, and i dont think the points i mentioned aid it 08:32:25 rather, i think they detract from it 08:40:20 * Sgeo_ kisses his anti-virus 08:42:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:58:01 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 09:27:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:39:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:03:45 -!- uorygl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:04:02 -!- uorygl has joined. 10:17:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:23:32 -!- tombom has joined. 10:38:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:54:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:04:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:11:59 -!- augur has joined. 11:16:16 -!- hiato has joined. 11:50:39 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua). 11:50:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 11:53:47 -!- zzo38 has joined. 12:01:48 -!- alise has joined. 12:27:38 -!- marchdown has quit (Quit: marchdown). 12:33:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:40:49 Now I made implement Spider Tarot on PySol: http://sprunge.us/eKaJ 12:41:54 If you have PySol you can load this file 12:42:27 "As of 2004 any work on PySol has stopped, and PySol is officially discontinued." 12:42:54 Or do you mean http://pysolfc.sourceforge.net/? 12:42:55 It is PySol FanClub 12:43:01 It is what I mean 12:44:44 Too hot! Hoooly shit I cannot stand this weather 12:44:46 Bring back the rain 12:44:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:44:58 Apparently it's 23 degrees, bullshit, it's 25 12:45:11 zzo38: please tell me it's hot where you are too 12:45:17 otherwise i'll be uncontrollably jealous 12:45:34 :'( 12:45:48 I'm in Britain... you're MEANT to expect cold here 12:45:56 Why does it defy my expectations?! Why? 12:46:01 It is dark where I am 12:46:22 alise: I don't know why? 12:46:45 It's probably that evil weather. 12:47:26 I don't think the weather will be evil? 12:48:27 I can anthropomorphise it if I want, can't I? 12:48:47 You can if you want to 12:48:52 Then I shall 12:49:22 But you should remember what someone said (about something else): "Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it." 12:50:20 Ha 12:50:30 I don't think the weather is a computer :P 12:50:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:50:48 Of course you are right. The quote is about something else like it says 12:50:59 It is like a joke 12:52:06 You don't *think* the weather is a computer. 12:52:22 That's what they want you to think. 12:53:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 12:54:10 zzo38: It's not like a joke, it is a joke. 12:54:14 Unless it's only a pseudo-joke :P 12:54:27 I don't think the weather is a computer :P <-- also a ojke 12:54:28 *joke 12:56:18 Aww, Martin Gardner died. 12:56:32 Oh! 12:56:36 No! That's so sad. 12:56:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:57:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 12:57:13 What a shame. 12:59:33 He was 90something, though. 12:59:44 Yeah, true. 12:59:50 He hasn't really done anything for decades, has he? 13:01:23 Other than write some book, I think. 13:01:24 Also, http://twitter.com/thewub/status/14549831262 13:01:27 But not recently 13:02:03 Phantom_Hoover: Ha 13:02:11 When Conway dies: 13:02:31 "Okay, here's the deal. Name a game. We'll play. You win, you go to heaven. You lose, hell." 13:02:36 "The Game of Life." 13:02:44 [Death looks it up] 13:02:51 "HOW THE FUCK DO YOU WIN THIS THING???" 13:02:58 But it's not even a game!" 13:03:09 And you can't lose either 13:03:09 "It has game in the name! How could it be more game-y?" 13:03:15 "You never said it had to be a 2-player game." 13:03:22 By letting you actually play it! 13:03:29 It's a 0-player game. 13:03:42 (I'm totally going for CoreWars.) 13:04:16 My question is: Can you just invent a game on the spot? What are the requirements for a game? 13:05:23 There should at least be well-defined victory conditions. 13:05:42 http://i.imgur.com/5lFTN.jpg awwwwwwwwwwwww <3 nintendo. 13:05:56 Phantom_Hoover: Victory conditions: "Whoever isn't Death wins." 13:05:56 I have once asked: If you have to play game against Death to survive, which one: Chess, Poker, Mahjong? 13:06:19 zzo38: Poker. I'm shitty at the other two games, so my best chance is to rely on luck. 13:06:41 If I could challenge him to a game of my choice, I think it'd be nomic. 13:06:50 That would be very interesting. 13:06:51 Here is another victory conditions: "Play any card. After one turn, the game is over. If you haven't played all the cards yet, the game is a draw and you have to start over again." 13:07:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:08:19 (You play with a deck of 52 cards (or 40 if you are Italian or Spanish), and after one card is played, that is one turn) 13:08:33 GAME RULES: The game must be played by a human, on Earth, in physical form, with a young body and a sharp mind, and Death, in his realm. The game ends whenever the player who is not Death writes a letter to Death at "Death / Hades" and pleads for him to make the game end; Death then wins. Death must not otherwise interact with the other player. 13:11:16 http://lair.fifthhorseman.net/~dkg/fonts/dkg-handwriting/jabberwocky.pdf ;; this is the first decent handwriting font i've seen. 13:12:55 Why do you not need to handwrite? 13:13:45 Need to lunch. 13:17:54 Phantom_Hoover: Why do I not need to handwrite what? 13:18:43 So, /me is trying a new organisational system for ~/ since the old one didn't work. 13:24:35 ~/downloads -- temporary downloads that I'm not going to futz with (things like little C programs I download do /not/ go here); should be emptied regularly 13:25:01 ~/research/YYYY-MM/ -- all sorts of crap I get from other people; source trees I want to compile, data files I want to play with, little C programs, etc. 13:25:19 ~/work/YYYY-MM/[project/] -- stuff i make. 13:25:31 The old system was just ~/Downloads and ~/code basically. 13:26:34 Wow, someone claimed that "grammer" was American English, while "grammar" was British English. 13:26:48 Where? 13:27:37 http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/c750w/11_year_old_girl_writes_to_nintendo_as_part_of_a/c0qkq8q?context=1 13:27:55 I like the new Ubuntu release 13:28:29 I thought it was evil. 13:29:45 Did I say that? 13:29:54 No. 13:29:55 It probably did something baaaaaaaaad. But it's not doing anything baaaaaaaaad right now. 13:29:59 Phantom_Hoover: Oh. 13:30:03 Phantom_Hoover: Well you're wrong then. 13:30:08 Oh, you mean that other person 13:30:11 Who said it was evil 13:30:16 Right, they are wrong. They just have an extreme aversion to purple clearly 13:32:32 I know what it did wrong (I had experience with it at Free Geek): The default is nc -q 0 13:33:21 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:35:27 zzo38: What's wrong with -q 0? 13:35:37 -q after EOF on stdin, wait the specified number of seconds and then 13:35:38 quit. If seconds is negative, wait forever. 13:35:38 Ah 13:35:42 But what's wrong with that? 13:35:46 There's no EOF in network protocols 13:35:48 so it wouldn't have any other use 13:36:15 It should be the default -q -1 13:36:32 A few people has filed this as a bug report 13:36:42 But it is easy to fix any script that uses it 13:37:03 Why -q 1? 13:37:11 https://chrome.google.com/extensions/img/mikdfeaeaecoffpjoodiihgejnbfigln/1274222031.11/screenshot_big/1001?hl=en-us ;; Huh, you can make Chrome look native on Linux now 13:37:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:37:39 That's always been possible. 13:37:58 At least since 9.10. 13:38:57 Because -q -1 is negative it wait forever, which is the function in olderversions as well as in other distributions 13:39:29 zzo38: But WHY should it be like that? 13:39:33 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it looked ugly :) 13:40:13 Anyway, this one is a proper theme and evrything. 13:40:15 *everything 13:41:01 Hmm, Chromium doesn't haev the window border. 13:41:47 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 13:41:54 Maybe I need Chrome instead. 13:42:48 alise: I think default should be wait forever because sometimes the protocol is not finished yet! 13:43:06 zzo38: Ah, you mean like if ^D is used in the protocol? 13:43:22 I don't think you should use ^D in the protocol for the same reason you shouldn't use ^C: it's taken for metapurposes! 13:43:57 alise: That's one purpose. But the other purpose is things like: echo aboutgophserv | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 13:44:37 zzo38: Good point. Okay, then, I agree with you. 13:45:34 Ah, there, now the window shadow is back. 13:46:19 -!- AnMaster has joined. 13:46:24 Why was it gone? 13:46:53 so, now I have znc up and running on my desktop 13:46:54 yay 13:47:43 Phantom_Hoover: Using the non-native title bar. 13:49:20 http://i.imgur.com/LWc8g.png ;; here's what it looks like now 13:51:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:52:37 Ahh Chrome is a nice browser; think I'll use it. 13:53:58 -!- ws has joined. 13:54:58 hi ws 13:55:02 are you whitespace? 14:02:33 -- The following will find the recursive form definition of the fibonacci function from its closed-form solution. 14:02:34 init075 -- The problem is tough, so you should be prepared to resort whatever measure you can take! 14:02:34 printAny (f -> all (n -> (f :: Int->Int) n == let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in round ((phi^n - (1-phi)^n) / sqrt 5) ) [0..9]) 14:02:37 MagicHaskeller: http://nautilus.cs.miyazaki-u.ac.jp/~skata/MagicHaskeller.html 14:02:41 It fucking writes progams for you! 14:02:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:02:55 IT TURNS THE BINET FORMULA INTO THE RECURSIVE FIBONACCI DEFINITION. 14:02:56 WTF 14:10:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:10:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:22:23 I can't et it to compile :( 14:27:47 http://vpri.org/pov/ 14:27:54 NO! Out of stock! 14:27:57 Want! Fucking want now! 14:28:07 Sadness... overwhelming... 14:28:16 :P 14:29:07 R.I.P. Martin Gardner :-( 14:29:13 ws: yeah 14:29:15 Sad. 14:34:24 p yiff-server - Y Sound Server 14:34:40 Yup... just your average, every day yiff server. 14:43:19 [["Child pornography is great," the speaker at the podium declared enthusiastically. "It is great because politicians understand child pornography. By playing that card, we can get them to act, and start blocking sites. And once they have done that, we can get them to start blocking file sharing sites".]] 15:01:02 Hey, I got quoted twice in one Haskell Weekly News in 2009. 15:01:03 ehird: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 15:01:04 ehird: [on the previous quote] Someone re-remember that quote when lambdabot's back so I don't have to and thereby look egotistical, thanks 15:01:06 ego++ 15:16:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:17:32 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...). 15:18:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:23:37 * alise gives DDG a go. 15:24:48 -!- augur has joined. 15:31:07 * alise invents yet another wiki format because he can. 15:31:09 I has the powah 15:37:45 Vejn. 15:39:36 pikhq: Njev? 15:41:27 pikhq: Ya what now :| 15:42:46 Something or othere. 15:42:56 Also, your mother. 15:45:29 It is 9:45. Why am I up this early? 15:45:33 I went to bed at 3. 15:46:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:46:19 insufficient time dilation. try running faster. 15:52:58 pikhq: who knows. 15:53:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Eek, a black hole!). 16:06:57 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 16:10:01 I wonder why nobody's invented this particular blend of formatting language before. 16:15:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:33:19 -!- Portponky has joined. 16:40:17 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:41:14 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:41:39 hi 16:42:52 -!- alise has joined. 16:56:08 -!- lament has joined. 17:01:00 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:03:04 I just realised I ran out of programming languages to use 17:03:04 shit 17:04:23 `addquote insufficient time dilation. try running faster. 17:04:27 162| insufficient time dilation. try running faster. 17:06:21 m4? 17:07:39 alise: Assembly? 17:10:20 No :P 17:11:12 Wait, for what? 17:13:53 Anything. 17:13:58 Anything. 17:15:13 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:15:58 alise: ATS? 17:16:08 APL? 17:16:17 s/APL/J/ 17:16:30 Ooh, ATS! 17:16:32 That language is fun. 17:16:32 A+? (Which is GPLed) 17:16:39 Mathnerd314: Hey now, nothing wrong with APL -- I do like J though 17:16:59 J *is* APL :p 17:17:03 I thought it cost MONEY. 17:18:21 No. 17:18:23 It's just not open source. 17:18:29 It's a wonderful language, though. 17:18:43 Mathnerd314: Well, it's the Unofficial Sequel. 17:18:59 From some of the members of the production team who brought you "APL"... 17:19:26 I cannot believe I've stopped using Google. 17:19:48 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 17:19:56 Mathnerd314: Wait, no, J was the same guy as APL. 17:20:07 Mixed up J and K's histories there, I think. Except I knew K was unofficial. 17:20:13 Maybe I mixed up J and A+ or something. 17:21:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:21:10 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined. 17:23:51 -!- MigoMipo__ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 17:24:22 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:27:04 By the way, using Parsec for something that's meant to accept any and all input is not wise. 17:27:08 It does not like forgivingness. 17:28:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:30:35 No, it just does error messages. 17:31:30 I'm not even trying to parse something insanely difficult. 17:31:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:32:29 tag := '{' name [spaces node+] '}'; name := !(spaces | '{' | '}') text := anything; node := tag | text 17:32:41 If a tag doesn't match -- e.g. {} -- then it falls through to the everything-accepting text. 17:32:42 -!- wareya has joined. 17:32:50 Challenge: Parse this without the code looking like an ugly piece of shit. 17:33:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:35:46 pikhq: Think I should just write a custom parser? 17:38:46 Using haskell for anything is not wise 17:39:30 Quadrescence: Bullshit. 17:39:42 Quadrescence: Actually I've tried the same thing in other languages and so far the code is more verbose. 17:39:43 alise: Yeah; that's not exactly playing to Parsec's strengths there. 17:39:55 Use C. 17:39:56 :)))))) 17:40:02 Quadrescence: No. :)^n 17:43:09 alise: Or use SML. :D 17:43:24 pikhq: OTOH, this parser is a bitch to write by hand because of all the little fiddly fallthroughs. 17:43:25 Ugh. 17:43:30 Quadrescence: "Meh". 17:43:38 Hey you should love SML 17:43:41 I do! 17:43:48 Good! :))) 17:43:49 I just don't think it's particularly suited to this problem any more than Haskell. 17:43:58 Someone who likes SML but not Haskell is a bit silly. Maybe you dislike the Haskell hype, community or libraries... but the actual language is fairly benign. 17:44:03 I agree that most Haskellers don't know what they're doing. 17:44:11 And it's a flawed language. 17:44:14 alise: That is mostly true. 17:44:41 Deep deep down a lot of Haskell I don't have a problem with, strictly as a language. Of course it has its quirks and flaws but so does every language. 17:44:55 (except the one I'm designing) 17:45:03 (of course) 17:45:23 Haha, don't be silly. My languages are the flawless ones. 17:45:36 alise: Your languages aren't even computable!! 17:45:49 THAT MAY BE TRUE :P 17:45:53 -!- ws has joined. 17:45:54 Quadrescence: Hey now some of them are 17:45:56 SOME of them! 17:50:30 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 17:50:50 pikhq: Pretty sure I could do this better; this whole snippet /just/ parses a tag name: http://pastie.org/973478.txt?key=qybxeu7xoift2bcwzlqhya :P 17:51:28 And the tag parser itself is going to have to handle finding 3 metric fucktons of text and then realising it's unbalanced and so shooting it off as text 17:51:42 Maybe "{foo abc" should parse as the tag {foo abc} instead of the text "{foo abc". 17:52:00 OTOH, you could have ridiculous things like the whole thing being snarfed up into a table like that. 17:52:27 3 metric fucktons 17:52:39 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 17:52:57 Yes; it's slightly less than 3 regular fucktons. 18:01:29 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:03:47 -!- hiato has joined. 18:05:07 Gawd, you really wouldn't think...parsing...would be so hard. 18:08:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:11:26 pikhq: Library idea: You feed it a parser description, and it outputs a parser that "patches things up" so that it accepts any input at all. 18:11:32 With customisable parameters for how it should handle certain invalid texts. 18:14:22 and the rest like it. the first thing i would do is ditch the secondary high notes that come in at like 2:00 with the 6 note downward sequence // hahah, well this is definitely not happening :P 18:22:38 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:27:41 http://lmddgtfy.com/?q=printf 18:53:31 Toasted marshmallows are the nicest thing ever. 18:53:46 comex: do you just use your reddit account for promoting the iphone over android :P 18:55:32 alise: did you know that on OS X, both Flash and the HTML5 player are glacial for 720p, but QuickTime plays it fine; but hopefully the new API for H.264 decoding will be supported soon by one of them, unless Google decides to forcibly serve WebM? 18:55:39 just wondering :( 18:56:02 comex: that... your sentence doesn't even parse 18:56:31 comex: Could you sound any more like a valley girl? 18:56:54 see, all I want is to watch a damn video 18:57:27 And h264 is terrible for that while software patents exist. 18:57:40 Though, while software patents exist *it is effectively illegal to program*. 18:57:58 comex: I suggest using Linux -- then you're not surprised by breakage. 18:58:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:20 alise: well 18:59:26 even Linux has that nvidia H264 acceleration thingy 18:59:27 vdpau 18:59:40 yeah but we generally don't install things, the smart of us anyway 18:59:50 this is okay, we can deal with this, we don't feel like we need to break things right now... 18:59:57 this is just fine, we don't need to watch online videos anyway. 18:59:58 And it is used illegally most of the time. 18:59:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:00:36 I think Flash has the only legal h264 decoder for Linux. 19:00:52 Well. Legal as far as we know. 19:00:56 nah, isn't H.264 officially free for web video? 19:01:03 not that i know of. 19:01:11 and creating it by anyone without a license will become illegal Real Soon Now 19:01:14 so, have fun with that. 19:01:17 You do not currently have to pay a license fee for streaming. 19:01:25 and that's for at least 5 years 19:01:39 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 19:01:42 Decoding requires a license. Encoding for *most* purposes requires a license. 19:01:54 (basically anything but home video creation) 19:02:04 home video creation will become illegal without a license soon iirc 19:02:07 something or other expires. 19:02:21 alise: They extended the *promise not to sue*. 19:02:22 "On February 2, 2010 MPEG LA announced that H.264-encoded Internet Video that is free to end users would continue to be exempt from royalty fees until at least December 31, 2015.[11] However, other fees remain in place. The license terms are updated in 5-year blocks.[12]" 19:02:30 anyway 19:02:32 it doesn't matter! 19:02:51 comex: All of this only applies to the patents in the MPEG LA patent pool. 19:02:59 It is always possible for there to be a patent outside of it. 19:03:07 yeah, then you can sue the world 19:03:12 because by 2015 (really, by 2011 most likely) there will be more widespread support for VP8, hopefully 19:03:21 even though the x264 guy says VP8 sucks 19:03:46 then apple will support it in another 10 years 19:03:47 VP8 almost certainly violates patents. There do not exist nontrivial programs that don't, at this rate. 19:03:54 There's fucking patents on linked lists. 19:03:59 Linked. Lists. 19:04:29 lists that have multiple links in order to be traversed in multiple ways 19:04:38 of course, that patent is probably invalid and wouldn't stand up in court 19:05:19 Big deal. US court system means that a party without a lot of money loses by default. 19:05:45 dark shikari is cool 19:05:52 but i don't think he cares about the legal implications of ... anything... 19:05:57 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:08:06 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:08:40 alise: I believe he lives in a country where he doesn't have to 19:08:51 "believe"? :-) 19:09:21 comex: As x264 does not do binary releases, they barely get around US patent laws. 19:09:26 *Barely*. 19:09:53 Since it's not compiled, they've not actually implemented the patent, merely written a description of the patent. 19:09:55 My point is that using x264 is only practical for those doing illegal things anyway -- like making encodings of TV shows. 19:10:01 US patent law is fucking retarded. 19:10:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:10:24 pikhq: What if they shipped it with a compiler binary and a program that would run the compiler on any source files in its vicinity? 19:10:37 Compiler: legal, obviously; program that runs a compiler no matter where it is: legal, obviously; description: legal. 19:10:40 Sum: legal? 19:10:50 alise: Whether or not you would win that case is a function of how much money you have to blow. 19:11:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:11:15 No, seriously. 19:11:18 Is it technically legal, though? 19:11:28 *I don't know*. 19:11:32 No component is illegal -- does the whole thing constitute an implementation? Nobody says you have to run the compiler script. 19:11:33 pikhq: lol :P 19:12:18 It may be perfectly clear. It may be an implementation. The script *itself* might violate a patent on automating compilation of a program. 19:12:52 It is, in short, impossible to know if any program is legal. 19:30:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:30:52 Well, one could argue that the binary file is a bunch of perfectly legal bits stuck together. 19:33:31 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 19:33:56 1 is illegal but 0 is okay 19:39:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:39:10 BLARGH SOFTWARE SUCKS 19:39:29 Everything sucks. 19:47:27 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 19:47:46 Aieee. 19:47:49 I'm pinged. 19:47:54 Phantom_Hoover: You'd know har har 19:47:56 Ahem 19:47:58 Stay classy, alise 19:48:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:48:33 alise: two links for you 19:48:36 http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?QBFORTH 19:48:49 http://www.staticramlinux.com/ 19:49:06 H.264 is a suckfest. 19:49:10 And not the good kind. 19:49:16 Gregor-L: Legally, yes; but technically? 19:49:19 It's certainly superior to Theora. 19:49:24 Technically it's friggin' amazing. 19:49:30 Yeah. 19:49:30 actually, here's another: http://sta.li/ 19:49:37 Rugxulo: I know of sta.li; I'm a fan of the suckless guys. 19:49:43 what, haven't heard of WebM yet? 19:49:50 sta.li/n 19:49:51 alise, I thought so, just making sure 19:49:58 Rugxulo: Mm. 19:50:00 Gregor-L: We need to assrape the H.264 owners until they decide to open it up :P 19:50:11 Isn't WebM based on VP8-- yep 19:50:14 Sucks 19:50:22 VP8 + Matroska + Theora 19:50:28 Gregor-L: We need to assrape the H.264 owners until they decide to open it up :P // I like this no matter WHAT context you interpret it in! 19:50:31 oops, Vorbis 19:50:33 (sorry) 19:50:48 Gregor-L: We did not need to know that ... but when will the fanfiction be done? 19:51:13 Rugxulo: Hey, that QBFORTH was written by our very own zzo38! 19:51:24 Link to his journal is broken though. 19:51:28 * Gregor-L applauds 19:51:49 Gregor-L: What, exactly, are you apploading :P 19:51:53 *applauding? 19:52:20 zzo38 :P 19:52:32 alise: argh! that link worked for me 19:52:35 the other day, I mean 19:52:45 he even compiled it, too (QB4.5) 19:52:54 Gregor-L: Does zzo38 just generate an applaudy reaction in you? 19:52:57 funny curiosity, even if I don't really know Forth ;-) 19:53:03 alise: No, just the way you said it :P 19:53:13 Like he was about to come out on stage and take a bow. 19:53:31 He seems to have deleted or at least elided the entry from his journal. 19:53:37 Either that or the file disappeared. 19:53:55 Gregor-L: By our very own.... ZEEED ZED OHHH (thirtyeight)! 19:53:55 * Rugxulo having internet woes 19:54:02 /music 19:54:07 EXACTLY 19:54:38 http://rapidshare.com/files/390783825/qbforth.zip.html 19:54:38 MD5: 9BAE75C6AB6AF45949BE9262350A36EE 19:54:43 there :-P 19:54:43 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 19:55:10 actually, there's a Perl Forth, a Bash Forth, so it's not that odd ;-) 19:56:29 In the tradition of promoting redditor-run sites that try to do the same thing as existing sites but that don't suck: http://filevo.com/ 19:57:01 huh, Forthfreak wiki lets you upload, interesting 20:00:01 gah, my wifi connection keeps flaking out 20:00:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webm 20:01:37 The only issue is that VP8 sucks balls... and is also patented 20:01:48 It's just that the H.264 guys are more open about their patents :P 20:02:02 alise: Only in comparison to H.264. 20:02:14 Which is the best video compression format in existence... 20:02:20 Apart from the lossless ones! 20:02:29 Best lossy one. 20:02:32 Theora and WebM can't both be patented, how can MPEG-LA have a patent on every video format ever to exist?? 20:02:46 -!- coppro has joined. 20:02:55 Rugxulo: MPEG-LA probably doesn't have all the patents that apply to H.264. 20:02:57 Rugxulo: It's not just MPEG-LA. 20:03:05 the patents on VP8 are well-known iirc 20:03:09 Just the ones that are being claimed to apply to H.264 in public. 20:03:29 * Rugxulo wants to force everyone to go back to VIC-20 times, suffer with only 3.5k of RAM, then when they get tired of that, to decide whether they want to play fairly or not 20:03:34 alise: No, the only ones confirmed are ones that Google has granted a royalty-free license for. 20:03:58 Though MPEG-LA *is* busy going "What a lovely codec you have there. Wouldn't it be a shame if something were to... Happen to it?" 20:04:34 it's crazy, we live in a Linux world with lots of openness ... and yet other people are still crazy as loons 20:04:36 I read that in Snape's voice -- theory -- MPEG-LA is Snape. 20:04:43 Harry Potter is a metaphor for video encoding, and software patents. 20:04:49 have they learned nothing? (apparently) 20:04:49 alise: Should've been a mobster voice. 20:04:53 I don't know how Voldemort is. 20:05:20 Speaking of Linux, Ubuntu 10.04 is nice! 20:05:47 patents are worse than just being proprietary! 20:05:47 it's one thing to not share, it's another to prevent completely independent works to exist 20:05:47 audio works okay? 20:06:07 haven't tried it, heard some stuff is better but some regressions still exist 20:06:52 I think audio should work fine but I don't hae speakers in 20:06:57 It registers volume and everything 20:07:07 there are still many PulseAudio haters 20:07:09 The new themes finally make the thing look half-decent which is nice 20:07:15 Rugxulo: yeah you can just uninstall it if you don't like it 20:07:15 It works fine for me. 20:07:17 but i really don't care 20:07:19 Audio, that is. 20:07:26 the thing i do hate is that flash video/audio is desynched 20:07:36 this may be pulseaudio, or the fact that the plugin is 32-bit and my install is 64-bit 20:07:36 not sure 20:07:38 it's annoying though 20:07:42 pulseaudio is quite high latency iirc so... 20:09:46 startup speed is better, no? 20:10:16 much better to login screen -- there is a quite large lag of nothing happening between logging in to desktop, but that constitutes the entire log in time, so maybe it is just delaying showing it 20:10:19 and this machine is old and futzy anyway 20:10:23 so i wouldn't rely on its experiences 20:12:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:26:36 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:26:53 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:29:30 Bleugh, broken links. 20:29:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:32:25 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:33:40 Roken blinks. 20:36:38 "Jim Davis has stated that he created Garfield with the sole intention of making money. He decided to create a strip that would be popular with the masses, in order to be commercially successful." 20:36:49 Well done. 20:37:20 Hah. 20:37:34 and why not? 20:37:47 ais523: he's single-handedly lowered the quality of comics! 20:38:11 Have you ever *read* Garfield? 20:38:28 It's pretty amazingly poor. 20:38:31 Also, hi ais523! 20:38:39 Don't go appearing like that without me knowing! 20:38:39 yep, haven't seen you for ages 20:38:44 probably due to missing each other 20:38:48 Wait, you haven't joined in... 20:38:51 How long have you been here? :P 20:38:56 Ah, there. 20:39:01 ais523: any news? 20:39:12 surprisingly little 20:39:17 I've been to Canada and back 20:39:37 then spent a week alternately asleep and preparing for the Pokémon World Championship qualifiers 20:39:42 because they're in Birmingham this year 20:39:54 and, I mean, how hard can it be? 20:40:33 Card game or video game? 20:40:39 video game 20:40:47 You're going to get schooled. 20:40:59 pikhq: heh, I was 6th in the world on the online practice simulator for a while 20:41:11 Tournament Pokemon players take the game to fairly absurd heights. 20:41:15 I know 20:41:28 so I just had to come up with something even more absurd 20:41:49 Such as spending hundreds of hours to maximise the stats on your team? 20:41:56 hundreds? 20:42:03 it's taken me about 5 so far 20:42:06 with only one member to go 20:42:14 You've not maximised the stats. 20:42:16 (hint: the Pokémon RNG has been broken for a couple of years) 20:42:20 yes I have 20:42:29 Oh, it was broken? Okay, that changes things. 20:42:45 it's a pain trying to get the timings /just right/ 20:42:57 but if you keep trying, you can hit a 1/60 second interval after about an hour of trying 20:42:58 You've got *a good chance* of getting schooled, then. 20:43:42 Keep in mind, you're playing against the kind of guys who come up with ways to have omnipotence in D&D. 20:44:01 pikhq: I know at least 3 of said guys 20:44:18 and at least 2 of said methods, although not in detail 20:44:18 Then you have a clue what you're getting into, then. 20:44:22 yes 20:44:24 I do 20:44:29 just I like to act like a noob because it's funny 20:44:43 Which leaves me with one last piece of advice, then. 20:44:49 Good luck. 20:44:50 :) 20:45:00 thanks 20:45:41 (did you know that the second turn of drowning in D&D sets your hitpoints to 0? it's the only known way to recover from minus arbitrarily large HP in the turn you have before dying, and part of one of the omnipotence combos) 20:46:47 haha 20:48:15 I assume this omnipotence is a closely guarded secret. 20:48:25 not really 20:48:52 I must just suck at Google, then. 20:48:57 Phantom_Hoover: It's called Pun-Pun. 20:48:59 the other method I know involves a kobold build that can transform into a kobold with slightly better stats, which can transform into a kobold with slightly better stats... 20:49:01 that's Pun-Pun 20:49:14 and for some reason it only works with kobolds, although I can't remember why 20:49:54 ais523: You get an ability that works on "scaly ones" that lets you modify yourself. 20:50:05 ah yes 20:50:16 It works on any vaguely reptilian race, kobolds are just the easiest such race to use. 20:50:52 pimg 20:51:02 -!- augur has joined. 20:51:35 Also, IIRC, that was a bucket of water, a spell that lets you prevent yourself from dying from damage for a couple of turns, an *infinite damage loop*, and some spell that gave you extra stuff for the amount of damage you got. 20:52:04 Oh, and a way to make the temporary bonuses permanent. 20:52:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:52:51 There's yet another way of doing it. Polymorph. Awaken. Restoration. Repeat. 20:53:10 D&D is so broken it's not even funny. 20:53:32 My nerd war sense is tingling. 20:53:37 strangely, nobody's managed to break Pokémon yet 20:53:42 and it's not for lack of trying 20:53:52 Which one? 20:54:01 Phantom_Hoover: No nerd war. Just nerding. 20:54:05 D&D can be broken in this way, but there are different players some player prefer a different way 20:54:13 It's a very well-known fact that D&D is incredibly not-balanced. 20:54:16 And anyways, any rule can be override if there is too much wrong 20:54:27 I assume that the wide variety of stuff would make Pokemon resilient to breakage. 20:54:31 It is certainly correct that D&D is not balanced, however. 20:54:54 Phantom_Hoover: you'd expect a wide variety to make things more easily broken, in fact 20:55:02 Semi-gestalter class hopefully makes it a bit more balanced however 20:55:05 for instance Wobbuffet turned out to be unexpectedly broken in singles 20:55:05 But a paper-and-pen RPG doesn't need to be balanced, it just needs to have enough structure to let players have fun. 20:55:26 although the championships are doubles, so you can't exploit it 20:55:27 And not stop them *from* having fun. 20:55:32 Yes, basically. Although balanced can helps a bit 20:56:19 Icosahedral RPG should be more balanced however in some ways, due to some of the difficulties involved in casting spells and so on. 20:56:49 I have heard of ways to do aleph-one damage in one turn 20:57:07 As well as ways to permanently transform your character into a sandwich 20:57:39 the second is possible even in D&D, isn't it? 20:57:54 just stack a bunch of polymorph any object spells 20:57:56 Both of these things refer to D&D 20:57:58 How does one deal aleph-one damage in one turn? 20:58:07 ah 20:58:08 Who the hell wrote that into the rules? 20:58:57 it probably wasn't deliberate 20:59:01 the rules are rather self-contradictory anyway 20:59:07 in places, at least 20:59:14 How does it work? 20:59:22 Phantom_Hoover: RPG system writers manage to do some really, really funny things by accident. 20:59:50 Even Icosahedral RPG rules has one deliberately contradictory rule, however, which is called the Fundamental Rule: All rules have exceptions, including this one. 20:59:51 Linky? 21:00:19 For instance, in D&D there exists the Peasant Railgun. You can have a line of people with readied actions to hand an object in front of them. Readied actions, when triggered, happen immediately. 21:00:40 Thus, with a line of people long enough, you can send any object any distance in 3 seconds. 21:00:49 (that being the granularity of D&D) 21:00:50 pikhq: Of course, that is a rule you have to override in that circumstance because it is obviously wrong in that case. 21:00:54 pikhq: how many friends do you share with me? 21:01:04 I've heard exactly the same stories, with almost exactly the same wording 21:01:09 ais523: I don't know, actually. 21:01:11 presumably these things are just memes that spread around in gaming circles 21:01:11 There are many rules in D&D you have to override, especially since you can make up any new situation with new ideas 21:01:15 and neither do I 21:01:20 ais523: These ones are just common knowledge in gaming circles. 21:01:23 yep 21:01:35 zzo38: Except, of course, when it is sufficiently amusing. 21:01:47 I am unable to play RPGs. 21:01:58 As I lack sufficient friends to do so 21:02:29 Phantom_Hoover: ... You're too lonely to play D&D? Now that's sad. 21:02:39 Yes. 21:02:43 I play D&D sometimes 21:02:59 My character cannot do very much damage in one turn, but that's OK, I don't need 21:03:02 Well, more that the couple of friends I have aren't even remotely interested. 21:03:17 I can increase my armor class a lot in one turn, however. 21:03:24 zzo38: DPS is only worth it when it's entertaining, of course. 21:03:42 pikhq: What does DPS means? 21:03:49 Damage-Per-Second. 21:03:59 Used to refer to a character build based on maximising that. 21:04:19 See: most roll-players. 21:04:22 Yes, that is what some people like to do, but different people like to play differently 21:05:23 I play it differently, planning ahead too much and using such things as Zwischenzug and so on. 21:05:41 I also try to avoid to kill someone, usually. 21:06:01 That alone makes the game a lot more intricate. 21:09:09 I've been to Canada and back 21:09:14 dammit I want to be in Canada! 21:09:31 it was a relatively pointless experience, really 21:11:11 And I am already in Canada. 21:11:33 Phantom_Hoover: ... You're too lonely to play D&D? Now that's sad. 21:11:46 Me too; I have 0 real-life friends. Well, that's not true, I have about four but that's just because I met up with some internet friends. 21:12:03 zzo38: can you provide me with lodging :| 21:12:08 lawl 21:12:13 alise: I don't think so. 21:12:26 ais523: hmm... idea 21:12:34 ais523: international nomic competitions; every game is two-player nomic 21:12:37 played in person, in real time 21:12:49 you'd need a pretty robust initial moveset 21:12:54 perhaps in the later stages, the initial ruleset gets harder and harder to work with 21:12:59 and I fear that with two, people would constantly vote down each other's proposals 21:13:00 requiring greater nomic skill 21:13:04 because it's clearly the best strategy 21:13:09 so nothing would ever happen 21:13:12 ais523: okay then, four -- or perhaps some mechanism to make this not happen somehow 21:13:17 such as penalties for voting against 21:13:50 Can you use an odd number of players, such as three or five players? 21:14:06 I've even seen a solitaire version of Nomic online 21:14:11 I know some five players card games, such as Napoleon 21:14:19 where the initial rules had huge restrictions on proposals, and the idea was to win in the minimum number of turns 21:14:33 ais523: what were you in canada for, btw? 21:14:54 apart from Agoran diplomatic relations 21:15:09 s/btw/eh/ 21:15:18 alise: conference 21:16:03 ais523: WHY WASN'T I INVITED :p 21:16:18 because you hadn't submitted a paper to it? 21:16:29 What conference is that? 21:17:09 When you play D&D, is there a big monster with three tentacles in your party (perhaps NPC)? 21:17:22 That's only in the D&D 3.4Hentai edition. 21:18:02 Does such an edition exist? 21:18:09 I play 3.5 edition 21:18:11 alise: That *sort* of thing actually exists. Don't recall the name of the splat book in question, though. 21:18:33 I hope such an edition doesn't exist but, well... 21:18:44 zzo38: Mathematical Foundations of Programming Semantics 21:18:55 Either way, my question did not mean such things as that 21:20:15 ais523: Thanks, what are some of the things discussed in that conference? 21:20:28 it was mostly about mathematical models of programming 21:20:35 much of it was extremely technical 21:20:42 I mean more specific 21:21:18 Argh, I hate the SCP wiki! 21:21:21 game semantics, categorical models of programming-related structures 21:21:29 alise: Amazing time-waste, isn't it? 21:21:39 OK 21:21:42 pikhq: Amazing FUCK FUCK FUCK WHY AM I LOOKING AROUND -- IT'S DARK NOW, I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SLEEP -- 21:21:47 -- I CANNOT LEAVE THIS ROOM -- I -- 21:21:59 Hahahahah. 21:22:07 I did that. 21:22:10 -!- Oranjer has joined. 21:22:14 I literally did not sleep at all. 21:22:17 Surely you sleep when dark 21:22:29 I sleep too 21:22:34 Not when you've een reading the SCP wiki... 21:22:42 s/een/been/ 21:22:44 There's scary shit there. 21:22:50 No, I sleep even when reading SCP wiki 21:23:00 It doesn't stop me from doing so 21:23:06 You are evidently superman. 21:23:14 I am not superman 21:23:30 No, of course not. 21:23:42 You wouldn't want the Foundation getting you. 21:23:57 Phantom_Hoover: No, that has nothing to do with it 21:24:16 Of coursee. 21:24:41 Clearly most things described there are impossible. But perhaps me or someone can figure out if some of these things are in fact possible or partially possible just to see if it is or not 21:24:53 And you can make thought experiment even for impossible things, I suppose? 21:25:16 And they keep deleting files! 21:25:27 My problem is that my rational mind legs it once the lights are off. 21:25:55 Phantom_Hoover: Legs what? 21:26:06 Idiom. 21:26:22 (I am not superman and my D&D character is not superman either) 21:26:31 legs it, i.e. runs away 21:26:36 brb. 21:26:42 alise: OK 21:27:24 You can be rational mind becoming mixed up while sleeping, but if you are so, you are sleeping, once you wake up fully you are OK? 21:28:09 (At least to me it is, usually) 21:28:31 How does one tell if one is sleeping. 21:28:44 s/.$/?$/ 21:28:46 You guess. 21:28:51 That's how. 21:28:51 ps 21:29:34 Sometimes when I sleep I know I am sleeping, but sometimes I forgot and I don't think so. 21:31:28 there are various ways to determine if you're sleeping 21:31:36 one way is to attempt to read something that's written 21:31:49 you'll find you have to concentrate on the letters for the words to be made of letters, rather than just words 21:31:55 Things like this do not actually always work. 21:32:04 Only sometimes. 21:32:25 Sometimes you would forget that is the case 21:32:29 That's what happens when you sleep 21:35:30 I made some changes in Spider Tarot, you could fix it more if you think there is another mistake, sprunge TfgQ 21:40:24 Is it possible on Linux to set a user to have multiple groups? 21:40:56 yes 21:41:15 users have one "primary group" but they can be in any number of other groups as well 21:41:31 OK 21:45:47 you'll find you have to concentrate on the letters for the words to be made of letters, rather than just words 21:45:48 false 21:45:51 you can't even read words in dreams 21:45:56 they simply are not there 21:46:08 hmm, maybe 21:46:16 perhaps it affects different people differently 21:46:18 definitely; try to read a book in a dream sometime, even when lucid 21:46:35 Phantom_Hoover: the answer to "how do you know you are dreaming": reality checks 21:46:41 try lucid dreaming some time. it's very interesting 21:46:49 always freaks me out though: knowing the imperfections in this constructed reality. 21:47:53 Sometimes it works, sometimes you don't know, sometimes it seems to work but can't, but you forgot until you are wake up 21:48:04 alise, you are dreaming right now. Do a reality check. 21:48:27 Sgeo__: I can read text perfectly fine, colour is incredibly vibrant, and I've experienced no sort of realisation that I'm dreaming. 21:48:32 And both of my hands have the correct number of fingers. 21:48:39 I cannot breath while holding my nose. 21:48:46 Clocks are staying the same between looks. 21:48:49 I am awake. 21:49:23 (Did you think there is still a mistake in the Spider Tarot implementation file?) 21:49:29 I find that I can read text in my dreams. Usually, I try to pass a finger through a palm 21:49:47 *shrug* 21:49:53 one relatively easy way is to choose to wake up 21:49:57 I find it changes every time 21:50:02 that nearly always works if you're asleep, just you rarely think of doing it 21:50:08 Even if you choose to wake up sometimes it cannot work, but sometimes it can 21:50:16 I think you are supposed to do a reality check when you find your thoughts turning to thoughts about dreaming 21:50:16 if you're awake, it obviously does nothing 21:50:18 Even if I know I am sleep! 21:51:00 It's been a while since I've had a lucid dream 21:51:08 ais523: but the whole point of lucid dreaming is that you DON'T want to wake up 21:51:16 I think I had a lucid dream the night before last. 21:51:19 anyway, I can't do things like passing fingers through a palm I don't think 21:51:22 Or maybe the night before that. 21:51:25 but I always have >5 fingers 21:51:31 alise: if you don't want to wake up, why care if you're awake or asleep? 21:51:31 and they're sometimes in strange places on my hand 21:51:40 ais523: because if you realise you're dreaming, you can control the dreamworld 21:51:44 Yeah, I seem to consistently have too many fingers. 21:51:54 perhaps you should try to control it the JS way 21:51:57 ais523: Or do you not see the appeal of being god in a universe that can defy physical laws? 21:52:02 test to see if you can control the universe by thinking at it 21:52:04 not for being awake or asleep 21:52:10 To have an experience entirely specific to your wishes? 21:52:21 ais523: well, that's one reality check. 21:52:24 You can only affect the universe in a lucid dream if you really think it will work. 21:52:29 This is hard to do without first knowing you're dreaming. 21:52:35 Otherwise you'd have to think it'll really work in real life too; then you would be insane. 21:52:37 hmm, interesting 21:52:45 perhaps it does work in real life 21:52:50 just nobody believes it strongly enough to make it happen 21:52:51 Aaaand he turns insane 21:53:09 ais523: perhaps, but there's no reason to think so. 21:53:21 agreed 21:53:28 but this is #esoteric, I like questioning assumptions 21:53:32 hehe 21:53:42 hi ais523 btw 21:53:44 Consider it questioned. :P 21:53:46 hi 21:54:04 ais523: have you never had a lucid dream? 21:54:08 alise: I have 21:54:13 your suggestions about reality checks seem to suggest you hadn't 21:54:17 often I didn't realise I was dreaming at the time 21:54:18 ais523: ok, have you ever /wanted/ to have one? 21:54:24 err... that's not lucid 21:54:24 no, not deliberately 21:54:25 ais523, I question that this is the forum for questioning assumptions! 21:54:28 lucid dreaming = dreaming & aware dreaming 21:54:38 I want to have one, but I haven't.... 21:54:38 although sometimes I wanted to continue them once I realised I was asleep, and continued 21:54:49 alise: ah, to me, lucid dreaming = dreaming where you control your actoins 21:54:50 *actions 21:54:54 and the world around you 21:55:00 ais523: you do in every dream, just not very intelligently (control your actions) 21:55:00 you don't need to know you're asleep to do that 21:55:07 not really, not for me 21:55:08 The idea of having a lucid dream makes me want to have a lucid dream! 21:55:09 well your definition is wrong :-) 21:55:13 I can't continue with dream plots after I become lucid 21:55:16 just can't get into the zone 21:55:20 my problem is: I can never get clearness 21:55:22 And the idea of wanting something makes me want to do something else. :P 21:55:27 I do the spinning, which is supposed to help; everything is still cloudy. 21:55:30 alise, dream plots? 21:55:34 Touch and stare at bricks and other detailed objects: doesn't help. 21:55:35 I think we both dream pretty differently 21:55:37 alise, as in plotter or as in story? 21:55:39 Try and keep doing things rationally: doesn't help. 21:55:45 Then it goes all fuzzy and I wake up. 21:55:46 AnMaster: Story.... 21:55:49 ah 21:56:02 * AnMaster imagines a plotter plotting graphs of dreams 21:56:05 should be interesting 21:56:05 alise: that's because you're too logical, I think 21:56:12 dream plots normally aren't self-consistent 21:56:26 oh, I can do totally illogical things afterwards 21:56:29 I can imagine you're the sort of person who'd notice, and that would screw up lucid reality 21:56:33 but I lose all sympathy for the characters in the dream 21:56:36 Dream plots are never self-consistent, even if you think it is 21:56:36 because you know it isn't real 21:56:36 and care not one bit about the plot 21:56:37 I almost never remember my dreams 21:56:44 and as far as I know I never had a lucid one 21:56:45 If you think it is that is because you are inconsistent 21:56:55 I don't think you can have a sensible illusion of reality unless you think it's real 21:57:00 It's funny the limitations on my current lucid abilities. 21:57:16 I can jump out of a window and glide to the ground; I can manage some sort of limited, crappy low gliding-flight. 21:57:25 I cannot change my surroundings at will or cause things to appear. 21:57:32 alise, before you do that make sure it actually is a lucid dream 21:57:36 AnMaster: Of course. 21:57:42 Incidentally, if you ever notice you have more fingers than usual in a dream: 21:57:43 hmm, my flight abilities were generally limited to floating down staircases 21:57:47 Touch the strange ones. 21:57:49 You will FEEL TEM! 21:57:50 *THEM 21:57:54 huh 21:57:55 although I could make the staircases appear at will, so it was less limited than it might feel 21:57:56 But, it will feel like a tingling, faint and strange. 21:57:59 It definitely feels alien. 21:58:01 alise, I see... 21:58:04 But still, there is sensation. 21:58:13 alise, I never been aware of dreaming while dreaming so.. 21:58:13 You can sense six or more fingers. 21:58:18 though I had recursive dreams 21:58:18 It's bizarre. 21:58:24 AnMaster: most people do 21:58:35 alise, yeah but recursive dreams are pretty strange 21:58:42 ais523: Apparently if you can make a mirror or similar appear with your desired dreamworld in it, you can enter it to go there 21:58:49 also, apparently thinking of a place and spinning around will get you there too 21:58:50 like dreaming you wake up, and you don't 21:58:59 dreamworlds are like all the silly magic fantasies ... working 21:59:05 for me it just needed a place in dreamworld geography 21:59:16 I sometimes have very recursive dreams 21:59:27 alise, what about clapping your hands and believing in faeries? ;P 21:59:28 zzo38: more than two levels? 21:59:34 I used to do two levels a lot, although it hasn't recently 21:59:46 I think I actually had 3 levels once 21:59:47 AnMaster: That might even work. 21:59:48 mostly, waking up, getting ready, etc, then waking up again and being annoyed at having to do it all all over again 21:59:51 which was bloody strange 21:59:57 obviously I didn't know I was asleep at the time (and it wasn't lucid) 21:59:58 ais523: Yes, more than two levels. I don't remember exactly but I think perhaps seven levels 21:59:59 Side-note, apparently dream sex is better than the real thing. 22:00:05 zzo38: that's impressive 22:00:06 Good luck getting lucid enough to do that though. 22:00:14 zzo38: how on earth did you keep track? 22:00:20 alise: I expect it's better than the real thing by definition 22:00:26 alise, what about dream sex without being lucid? 22:00:29 it's what you want to have from sex, not what sex actually is 22:00:30 ais523: Well, it depends. 22:00:39 alise: Please, for the love of god, tell me you don't actually know. 22:00:41 I suppose if you have a bad imagination you'd find it hard to think of what you want from sex. 22:00:47 Phantom_Hoover: No, I don't :P 22:00:48 alise: I don't know how. I don't actually remember so I guessed 22:01:01 But that is the best I can remember 22:01:08 zzo38: maybe it was only two levels, but seven equalled two in that dreamworld 22:02:11 ais523: Of course, an issue with lucid dreams is that the characters can never be realistic. 22:02:20 Of course such things are possible, but that isn't what I can remember (of course it is not possibly to remember exactly the dreams) 22:02:21 Because your subconscious will be maintaining them; at best they'll be poor copies of you. 22:02:28 people aren't realistic in real life either, though 22:02:30 Or even unrealistic in an interesting way 22:02:38 Seven is just the approximate number. But I know it was something close to that number 22:02:46 One thing I'd like to do in a dream is to get powerful enough to be able to set pi to 3. 22:02:54 alise, :D 22:02:57 I imagine my vision will go all fucked up and then I'll wake up. :) 22:03:00 you'd need to know the consequences 22:03:03 ais523: not really 22:03:04 or be able to work them out 22:03:05 or you'd fail 22:03:07 Just make the geometry non-Euclidean. 22:03:10 yeah what ais523 said 22:03:14 btw 22:03:16 it's your own mind doing the calculations, after all 22:03:19 ais523: my mind would just go on my naive "dream" expectation of what would happen if pi became 3 22:03:22 Positive curvature should do. 22:03:24 yes 22:03:29 circles becoming hexagons, etc? 22:03:30 what are the consequences of pi = 3? 22:03:31 which is, everything goes fucked up and the universe is destroyed 22:03:42 ais523: I don't think my mind can perceive a non-pi pi 22:03:49 AnMaster: nothing much; it's simply false. 22:03:55 pi isn't a constant you can change 22:03:59 just a consequence 22:04:01 No, if anything Pi is *already* less than 3.14159... 22:04:22 The universe is only locally Euclidean. 22:04:27 Pi is in Euclidean geometry. 22:04:43 It's no Euclidean on Earth. 22:04:48 AnMaster: everything is a consequence of pi = 3. 22:04:55 Phantom_Hoover: O rly? 22:04:57 uorygl, hm 22:05:00 And anyway, I said locally. As in locally. 22:05:07 We're in a gravity well. 22:05:09 QED. 22:05:18 Pi has the value it has regardless of geometry. You just have to use it different ways in different geometries. 22:05:20 Locally as in "visual proofs work if you look at them". 22:05:29 zzo38: Yes, but pi as the ratio that it is. 22:05:45 Yes, but the ratio of the circumference to the diameter changes. 22:05:49 alise, try changing e as well 22:05:51 I like the "circles are hexagons" consequence of pi = 3. 22:06:05 uorygl, then what would hexagons become? 22:06:08 Except it's not valid. 22:06:09 AnMaster: Do you just hate Euler? 22:06:10 Circles. :P 22:06:17 alise, no, why? 22:06:23 AnMaster: His identity. 22:06:28 Circles would still have no (or infinity) corners. 22:06:30 alise, hah 22:06:31 You're RUINING it! 22:07:36 Hmm, I think that a number of the form a^(bi) where a and b are real numbers always has absolute value 1. 22:07:46 * alise installs sage to try it. 22:07:51 Try sage, not what uorygl said. 22:08:06 sage ? 22:08:13 CAS> 22:08:13 Now I'm confident that that's true for positive a. 22:08:26 Or a mush of CASes. 22:08:40 And it's clearly false for a = 0. 22:08:53 sage is a mush of CASs with a bad python frontend 22:08:53 But eh. 22:09:01 I'm tired of Mathematica's UI on Linux. 22:09:06 As for negative a, my intuition stops there. :P 22:09:11 :( sagemath is no longer in Ubuntu, it seems 22:09:19 Though I remember that (-1)^i is a biggish real number. 22:09:37 Oh, it's actaully a smallish one. Bah. 22:09:40 i^i is real, and that still confuses me. 22:09:47 duck duck go is so awesome 22:09:59 (-1)^i = e^-pi :P 22:10:20 Eh, complex exponentiation is multivalued. 22:10:40 As far as I know, (-1)^i and e^-pi have all the same values. 22:11:05 Though, obviously, e^-pi has a certain interpretation as the exp function. 22:17:47 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 22:19:41 So, um, why do all CASs suck? 22:20:32 Because the problems are undecidable unless one approximates? 22:20:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:59 No; you don't use a CAS for such problems (and they try very hard to never return approximated results). 22:21:07 It's because they suck, is the answer. 22:21:24 They fall into two categories: Closed source thinsg that can do what you want, but with a lot of fluff, some fundamental issues, and horrible UIs; 22:21:26 *things 22:21:40 and open source ones with a decent foundation, no UI whatsoever, and extremely limited capabilities. 22:21:55 If I were a crazy man I would say that I should start a project to create a decent open-source CAS -- I am a crazy man. 22:22:05 "Approximates" meaning one has to take some shortcuts. 22:22:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:23:08 Mm. But I don't think that's why they suck; it's unavoidable. 22:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:33:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:34:20 Sage has Maxima, hasn't it? 22:34:57 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:35:10 I think it uses Maxima for some things. 22:35:24 So why not just use Maxima? 22:35:51 1.2 MiB/s, oh yeah. 22:36:00 Phantom_Hoover: Because Sage has a nicer interface and can also associate with other packages. 22:36:03 Maxima itself is very limited. 22:36:17 Maybe I should give Symbolics mucho moneys and get myself a copy of Macsyma (predecessor of Maxima) :-) 22:36:28 Or, ooh, go back to the 70s A.I. Lab and use AUTOMATH! 22:36:43 But Maxima is from MacSyma's code, isn't it? 22:36:55 Yes. 22:37:06 But it's cooler. It ran on Lisp Machines for fuck's sake! 22:37:18 But no-one uses them! 22:37:32 You can still buy them! 22:37:54 http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt $675 to $3,500. 22:37:59 And they're still amazing. 22:38:12 We must build our own! 22:38:26 My life dream, man. My life dream. 22:38:29 Apart from my other ones 22:38:33 Like? 22:39:18 Building the perfect CAS, building the perfect OS, building the perfect interface... 22:39:44 Not, like, solving the Reimann hypothesis or anything? 22:39:48 Build the singularity... 22:39:52 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I was getting there! 22:40:11 I don't believe that I could solve the Riemann hypothesis, anyway. 22:40:16 Anyway, I will build the singularity first! 22:40:36 And then do the rest! 22:40:39 Although I did fancy once proving it independent of ZFC, as a big ha-ha-fuck-you to both camps. 22:40:47 Phantom_Hoover: But the singularity will do the rest for you... at least the ones that are still relevant. 22:41:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:41:11 Phantom_Hoover: Also, make sure it's Friendly. 22:41:19 I will be the singularity! 22:41:34 Although you can throw the "friendly" out of the window, then. 22:41:36 STARRING ELIEZER YUDKOWSKY AS HIMSELF... 22:41:38 Omega 22:41:44 Coming to a mind near you... 22:41:58 He's just the head of a quasi-personality cult. 22:42:06 Also featuring Robin Hanson and uorygl (for comic relief). 22:42:07 Antagonist: taw 22:42:22 Phantom_Hoover: Eh, I don't see Eliezer as a cult leader. 22:42:24 Where do we fit oerjan? 22:42:26 It's not his fault people idolise him. 22:42:38 Pretty sure oerjan wants nothing to do with the singularity; he believes in god anyway :) 22:42:53 I will go to war with god! 22:43:01 Steady on, Philip Pullman. 22:43:15 For the whole bloody incompleteness thing! 22:43:38 I think it's Goedel you're thinking of there, not god 22:43:45 alise: is Hansom part of the comic relief crew? 22:43:50 Hansom :D 22:43:55 Where does fax come in? 22:44:08 That's what I get for typing with one hand and one finger. 22:44:19 uorygl: No, he's just a raving scientist on the side. 22:44:23 Phantom_Hoover: fax is secretly god. 22:44:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:35 She just has problems coming up with proofs of his own existence... and really hates humans 22:44:36 Then I shall go to war with fax! 22:44:37 *her 22:44:52 And break her Klein bottles! 22:44:59 PG-13 plz 22:45:10 The Riemann hypothesis seems like the sort of thing that's definitely either true or false. 22:45:24 Hmm, I should add some more "definitely"s. 22:45:33 That's definitely either definitely true or definitely false. 22:45:37 I've often wondered what the undecidability of the RH would imply. 22:45:50 uorygl: Be careful. 22:45:56 Since it would obviously be decidable if a counterexample existed. 22:46:06 There was some hypothesis, I forget what, 22:46:15 where a case for n=m was proven 22:46:20 but then n=m+1 or such was proved independent 22:46:22 without anyone expecting it 22:47:31 -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 502M 2010-05-23 22:45 sage-4.4.2-linux-64bit-ubuntu_10.04_lts-x86_64-Linux.tar.gz 22:47:32 O_O 22:47:37 What is alise in this epic. 22:47:49 Phantom_Hoover: a real boy. 22:47:52 THERE ARE NO STRINGS TO HOLD ME DOWN-- 22:48:05 * Phantom_Hoover grabs some string 22:48:20 And yeah, Sage is massive. 22:48:31 aww, ais went 22:48:42 I offloaded it onto an experimental flash drive RAID. 22:49:00 Is it how many gigs when expanded? 22:49:00 2? 22:49:10 1 and a bit, IIRC. 22:49:54 * uorygl interprets that literally before realizing that the non-literal interpretation is a lot more likely. 22:49:57 All this for a system inferior to the commercial CASs. 22:50:01 Sheesh. 22:50:04 uorygl: Interprets what literally? 22:50:20 I thought Phantom_Hoover meant "one gigabyte plus one bit". 22:50:23 heh 22:50:33 Sage now lives in ~/research/2010-05/sage; a rather unassuming directory name for the behemoth it is. 22:51:01 I think a lot of the cruft is pointless copies of libraries you almost certainly already have. 22:51:06 Just use the web version. 22:51:24 Well, maybe not 22:51:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:51:35 No; too slow and... impersonal. 22:51:43 Hmm, yeah. 22:52:03 Though the offline version takes an ungodly time to load. 22:52:09 I wonder what directory name would suggest that it contains a lot. 22:52:27 And god help you if you are foolish enough to *move* it. 22:52:31 uorygl: /opt/sage 22:52:36 /var/aggregated-database/sage 22:52:43 sage: 2+2 22:52:43 4 22:52:44 WOOOO 22:52:45 Or that. 22:52:45 That was worth it. 22:52:53 It regenerates *every single pyo and pyc file*. 22:53:13 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, it did that just now :) 22:53:15 Took a few minutes 22:53:26 How about ~/research/2010-05/sage-bloody-huge? 22:53:35 sage: solve(a==1+(1/a), a) 22:53:35 [a == -1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2, a == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2] 22:53:45 Phantom_Hoover: It's the date subdivision that does the little-soundingness, I think. 22:54:15 ~/research/bloody-huge/sage? 22:54:31 You could be a bit more subtle. 22:54:43 Subtlety is for the weak. 22:54:55 sage: (golden_ratio == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2).full_simplify() 22:54:55 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2 == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2 22:54:58 Hmm. :P 22:55:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 22:55:30 Please choose a new password for the Sage Notebook 'admin' user. 22:55:31 Do _not_ choose a stupid password, since anybody who could guess your password 22:55:31 and connect to your machine could access or delete your files. 22:55:31 NOTE: Only the md5 hash of the password you type is stored by Sage. 22:55:31 You can change your password by typing notebook(reset=True). 22:55:34 md5, great :P 22:55:49 Is it broken? 22:55:57 It's ... weak. 22:55:57 MD5 is quite broken these days. 22:56:09 Not broken by a long stretch: but cracking passwords is doable with some heuristics. 22:56:11 And luck.. 22:56:12 I think I've forgotten my Sage admin password. 22:56:13 *luck... 22:56:17 And it's generally just quite weak. 22:56:27 * Phantom_Hoover goes off and gets USB drives 22:58:53 Man, I love the typesetting ability. 22:59:00 Oh god it can use TeX fonts awesome 22:59:08 AFAIK, MD5 is not broken for password hashing. 22:59:42 I think for md5 there is a way of generating collisions? 22:59:52 there is 22:59:54 well-established 23:00:05 Portponky: Actually, attacks against it are more advanced than just collisions. 23:00:05 that doesn't break it for passwords 23:00:15 Bah, I knew this flash drive RAID thing was a bad idea 23:00:17 it isn't broken 23:00:23 but people choose bad passwords often... 23:00:30 i'm pretty sure md5 weaknesses have been exploited for that 23:00:35 can't you generate a crapload of MD5 sums quickly? 23:00:35 maybe i'm wrong 23:00:41 yeah there's a backwards md5 search for common strings 23:00:44 md5 is very fast ofc 23:00:49 which is its weakness, partially 23:00:56 valve used it in their portal 2 arg 23:00:57 AFAIK, the state of the art is given X and Y, find Z and W such that MD5(XZ) = MD5(YW). 23:01:45 * Phantom_Hoover must sleep 23:01:50 Phantom_Hoover: musn't. 23:01:55 it's only 11pm. 23:04:26 That's one reason why just doing Hash(password) and storing that is bad idea. 23:04:33 yeah 23:05:09 Password storage should utilize 1) Iteration 2) salting. 23:06:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:13 Iteration? Does that mean taking the hash a bunch of times, salting every time. 23:06:20 -!- augur has joined. 23:06:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:06:52 AFAIK, one has to only salt once in first iteration. 23:07:16 So iteration means you just take hashes of hashes? 23:07:24 pw_safe = MD5^n(salt(pw)) 23:07:38 Set n so that calculating pw_safe takes about 1-2 seconds. 23:07:43 i'd salt /your/ iterations 23:07:45 Everyone can wait 1-2 seconds to register or log in. 23:07:46 if you know what i mean 23:07:48 ;o ;o ;o 23:07:48 And it'll be very secure. 23:07:48 That's bit excessive... 23:07:58 Ilari: But utterly harmless. 23:08:10 And, well, not being excessive enough is what got us here today: continually replacing our security algorithms. 23:08:13 pw_safe = salt|MD5^n(salt|pw) 23:08:30 It's not like the more-bits-are-better nonsense you find in bad public key systems. 23:08:39 Anyway, here's what you should really do: 23:08:50 pw_safe = bcrypt(pw, n) 23:08:56 I guess iteration does make the hash, and therefore any cracking, take longer. 23:08:59 One could design very slow but very unlikely to be ever broken hash function. 23:09:00 Turns out OpenBSD are really fucking good at this stuff. 23:09:02 Problem solved. 23:09:21 Don't they use EKS Blowfish? 23:09:31 They use blowfish + salting + repeated iterations. 23:09:34 It's all very fancy. 23:09:46 If you believe cperciva, FreeBSD security officer, you should now use his scrypt instead. 23:12:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:14:55 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:16:22 -!- alise has joined. 23:18:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:19:11 lar 23:19:38 set unification is horrible 23:19:44 can i just say this 23:20:18 Unpermissibile. 23:20:45 i think i dont have a clear definition of it in my head 23:26:46 bah 23:26:51 we need the perfect cas. clearly 23:28:45 man, DDG is awesome. 23:53:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:53:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).