00:07:37 *gnab* 00:08:10 Gnab...orretni! 00:09:38 OK 00:20:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:20:07 It turns out who you thought was the main bad guy(s) is really a 00:20:11 double double agent. 00:39:10 What I want in D&D is "Break Into Debugger" spell. 00:46:22 Hahah. 00:47:46 zzo38: i would think wanting your D&D playing to resemble the programming you do everyday defeats the spirit of roleplaying in a horrendous way. 00:49:52 -!- Patashu has joined. 00:57:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:15:38 oerjan: OK, then........ 01:17:42 Now, (in the game) I need a tool for drawing large circles on the ground, and also a ring of anti-magic, and... 01:19:07 ...enough bonus to Diplomacy to use it to beholders. 01:33:36 This is going to require good timing. (And also zwischenzug. And "iron restraint".) 01:35:30 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:42:53 * uorygl pulls out his Finnish and reviews. 01:45:31 * uorygl goes to Finnish Wikipedia to read about the koirat again. 01:50:17 "kojootti" 01:50:20 Aww, what a cute word. 01:55:44 http://pastebin.com/QR8ettwJ 01:56:41 zzo38: L 01:58:47 No 01:58:58 http://pastebin.com/GFwGcCnh 01:59:29 Aww, it was a valid command up there. 02:01:11 But in this situation it should be obvious why it is no longer valid? 02:03:06 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:03:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:04:10 Well, now I have no idea what command to use next. 02:04:19 Besides, last time, L essentially gave a list of valid commands. 02:04:25 I would expect it to do the same here. 02:07:23 http://pastebin.com/VyKq7ZEM 02:07:51 Got it. 02:08:46 Well, how about P and I? 02:09:27 -!- cheater3 has joined. 02:10:10 http://pastebin.com/KRDYh8pF 02:10:47 Looks like S2 is pretty much the only option. 02:11:14 `translate Koira on ihmisen kesyttämistä eläimistä vanhin. 02:11:17 A dog is man's oldest domesticated animals. 02:11:55 Oops there is ' in there. 02:12:07 http://pastebin.com/wVNrMenD 02:12:34 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:13:24 L 02:14:44 http://pastebin.com/Yq1K66yn 02:15:07 1 02:16:52 http://pastebin.com/zFfBLLYY 02:17:12 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:17:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:17:29 Next time, I'm using RAZOR LEAF and TACKLE. 02:17:39 -!- aox has joined. 02:18:03 Now, what the heck was that? 02:18:27 I don't know 02:18:47 Where were you getting this? 02:18:52 I just made it up. 02:18:58 * uorygl nods. 02:19:01 It probably contains errors anyways. 02:19:09 It doesn't properly exist 02:22:04 -!- fax has joined. 02:22:18 how can genetic code mutate? if you change one letter of a program it will break.. what about a genetic programming langauge that does not break if you change a tiny bit of it 02:23:04 Parts of ordinary computer programs are quite evolvable. 02:23:07 yeah, you need a programming language (and programming) that is highly redundant 02:23:18 Like the color scheme, the GUI, how often the garbage collector runs, choice of algorithms... 02:23:19 or you need mutations described syntactically not on the per letter word 02:23:48 If a garbage collector runs every 100 milliseconds, it's not going to break the program if that number is changed to 120. 02:23:51 I think Creature brains were designed so that mutations don't become syntax errors 02:24:02 uorygl, unless the program's time sensitive 02:24:08 Creature brains? 02:24:12 Sgeo: hmm, true. 02:24:25 why does the topic say Alise-alert 02:24:34 uorygl, wish to explain Creature brains? 02:24:49 I know very little about Creature brains. 02:25:01 fax: because it is weekend and e is not here 02:25:12 I know that they're neural nets. 02:25:20 was e supposed to come on this weekend? 02:25:45 fax: i think so. i didn't recall anything about _not_ coming. 02:26:15 Creatures is a game [series] with Artificial Life 02:26:30 `creatures What? 02:26:32 The brains have lobes, containing neurons, and dendrites, connecting neurons 02:26:34 No output. 02:27:01 The lobes and dendrites have SVRules, rules like "Get value from neuron" "Add 1 to accumulator" 02:27:04 Or somesuch 02:27:11 But at some level, it's easy to mutate, I think 02:27:27 But in C3, they don't mutate, so it's a bit of a moot point 02:31:31 It would be fun to make a program that evolves bits of circuitry. 02:31:47 people do that in real life already 02:32:04 there's this special kind of circuit that has lots of circuits and randomly mutates its configuration 02:32:14 and it's used to create circuits to satisfy some requirement 02:32:24 and often it's not obvious how the created circuit actually does its job 02:32:29 (just like biological evolution!) 02:32:37 I want to write a program that evolves something 02:32:37 Is that called the Insane FPGA? :P 02:32:44 I think Tim Tyler wrote about something like that. 02:33:12 I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is. 02:35:29 well now you can't, because lament's not here! 02:35:55 * oerjan slips back under rock 02:54:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:54:46 -!- lament has joined. 02:57:26 * oerjan crawls out from under rock 02:57:33 uorygl: you might try again now 02:57:38 * oerjan crawls back 02:57:59 I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is. 02:58:06 There, did I succeed in lamenting that time? 02:58:18 hopefully we'll soon find out 03:03:18 * uorygl ponders what to do next. 03:05:24 you could take up quilting 03:06:36 I think I'll suddenly decide that I do understand Plash after all, and thus write a wiki using it. 03:07:15 then you'll discover you were wrong, but only after making a completely hilarious site 03:08:21 * uorygl listens to John Powell's "This Is Berk". 03:08:42 I hope I'm spreading my tweets over sufficiently many IRC channels. :P 03:08:43 curses, foiled again 03:09:15 You were foiled by my listening to "This Is Berk"? 03:09:20 depends. how many have banned you so far? 03:09:29 None! 03:09:32 yes. it is way outside my expertise. 03:09:53 then you are not trying hard enough. 03:10:27 Okay. 03:10:35 * uorygl tries to SSH to zbasu.net. 03:11:30 * uorygl fails after trying four different usernames. 03:11:45 * oerjan googletects a lojban word 03:12:09 * uorygl resets its root password. 03:12:36 * uorygl moves his Chrome window so that he can see some of iTunes. 03:12:56 * oerjan sips some water 03:14:33 * uorygl gets thirsty. 03:14:57 * oerjan talks about himself in the third person 03:14:57 * uorygl resets its non-root password and deletes its root password, then ensures that non-root has sudo access before exiting. 03:15:02 * uorygl logs in as non-root. 03:15:25 * uorygl does the same, but in a manner that makes it impossible to tell what set of pronouns is being used. 03:15:54 Let's see... I need apache. 03:16:12 And a helper script. 03:16:30 * uorygl looks up who his DNS is run by. 03:17:08 Slicehost. 03:17:48 * uorygl tries to remember why he didn't switch to Linode. 03:18:08 * uorygl wonders whether he ever got that refund for canceling within the first seven days. 03:18:14 Yes, that's how you spell "canceling". 03:19:00 `define canceling 03:19:02 * canceled - Alternative spelling of cancelled; Alternative spelling of cancelled \ [22]en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canceled \ * To prevent further use of a printing plate after an edition has been printed, the artist sometimes "cancels" the plate by X-ing it out or in some other way defacing it. Sometimes cancellation 03:19:30 * uorygl finishes listening to Aleksi Aubry-Carlson's "Battle Music" and begins listening to Marc Russo's "Central Park Sunday". 03:19:43 As you can tell, I like listening to artists whose names are people's names. 03:20:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 03:20:07 Uh oh. 03:20:23 I would listen to Modest Mouse, but unfortunately "Modest" isn't generally used as a first name. 03:20:23 I THINK THAT'S QUITE ENOUGH OF THAT 03:20:29 Aiee! 03:20:33 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com. 03:20:33 it's a nickname 03:21:08 Wait, what did uorygl do? 03:21:28 EXCESSIVE TWEETING 03:21:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com. 03:22:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 03:22:32 -!- uorygl has joined. 03:22:48 I feel so much better now that I've been kickbanned. 03:23:39 one of these days i'll get to use ops for something actually serious 03:23:59 uorygl: you mean you wouldn't listen to Modest Mussorgsky either? 03:26:11 Well, I might, now that you've asked. 03:26:36 Yeah, I'd listen to that guy, but probably not much. 03:26:56 Would you listen to Eliezer? 03:27:07 i discovered on wikipedia yesterday there was actually an Alexandru Robot 03:27:12 Yes, I'd listen to an Eliezer. 03:27:29 alas, it was not his original name 03:27:59 Oh. Now I don't think I would listen to him. 03:28:51 well he was a poet not a musician 03:29:23 Nah, I think he was a musician. 03:29:45 are we talking about the same person 03:29:58 Not if I'm talking about a musician and you're talking about a non-musician poet. 03:30:20 Oh, you're talking about Alexandru Robot and I'm talking about Modest Muss . . . . 03:30:39 * oerjan cackles evilly 03:31:10 my plan to confuse you by not mentioning which lines i'm replying to has succeeded 03:31:22 took long enough though 03:31:55 If you really want to cause me sorrow, then refuse to teach me category theory. 03:32:03 yay 03:32:20 So, is a colimit like a limit except that the functors of the cone all go to the same object rather than all coming from the same object? 03:32:36 all arrows are reversed yeah 03:32:40 it's the dual concept 03:32:59 * uorygl nods. 03:33:20 Let me see if I can extend what I know of limits to colimits. 03:34:01 specifically, a colimit is a limit in the dual category 03:34:20 I guess it's pretty clear what the dual category is. 03:34:44 Do colimits involve covariant or contravariant functors? 03:35:48 i guess a contravariant functor is just a covariant functor with one of the categories dualized, so... 03:36:51 so if a limit in a dual category is a covariant functor, then the colimit is contravariant 03:37:30 *-dual, just confusing there 03:37:49 I guess for all this understanding of limits I have, I don't know which part of it "the limit" is. :P 03:38:16 Is it the cone? The cone's domain? The... I don't know what else it could be. 03:38:18 well i'm not much used to thinking of limits as functors really, although i _think_ i know how they are 03:38:49 I was under the impression that limits were *of* functors. 03:39:13 functors from a category of diagrams iirc 03:39:44 hm... 03:40:05 Here we go. "A limit of the diagram F : J -> C is a cone (L, φ) to F such that . . ." 03:40:26 the limit is probably itself a functor from the diagram to Hom(-, O) where O is the object we also call the limit 03:41:36 basically you need both the limit object and arrows from the original diagram's objects to it 03:41:57 hm perhaps a cone is this thing i mean 03:42:15 I don't understand this category theory stuff 03:42:28 fax: I didn't, either, but then somebody taught me, and then I did. 03:44:13 i don't know _that_ much category theory myself 03:44:33 just mostly learned what i needed to know 03:45:24 and things like limits weren't necessarily defined in the most abstract way possible, i don't really recall cones there 03:45:40 How much category theory did you need to know, and why did you need to know it? 03:45:47 there is not enough use of category theory to make it easy to learn 03:45:48 "where she was released on her own recognizance." 03:45:49 WTF? 03:45:55 http://www.1010wins.com/Cops-Say-Teens-Planned-Attack-at-Connetquot-High/6997999 03:46:00 All the real uses of category theory are probably ridiculously advanced 03:46:06 well i did take homological algebra 03:46:11 so it is difficult to pick it up if you are a novice 03:46:18 and read a book on algebraic topology 03:46:42 and there were bits and pieces in other places probably 03:47:00 I still don't know any uses of category theory. :P 03:48:01 homological algebra is a main use of it, Saunders Maclane invented category theory for it i think 03:48:14 I mean, to learn what I know about category theory, I had to know what a set is, and what a function is. I think that's pretty much it. 03:49:58 algebra homomorphisms and linear transformations are important examples 03:50:16 (the latter is a special case of the former) 03:51:18 * uorygl suddenly realizes that he's tired. 03:51:44 Darn it, now how will I figure out what colimits look like? 03:52:19 it's like limits, except the colimit is on the other side :) 03:53:26 oh hm 03:53:57 I suddenly feel like learning to draw would be a really good idea. 03:54:19 I'm good enough at visualizing abstract stuff; concrete stuff, not so much. 03:54:35 yeah category theory without diagrams is hopeless 03:55:04 I use mental diagrams. 03:55:10 They're more difficult but more powerful, too. 03:55:45 well the point is some proofs have more arrows than you can reasonably hold in your head 03:56:06 Then I will stare at them until I can hold them all in my head. 03:56:11 Unless there are, like, hundreds. 03:56:24 In which case I shall run away with my tail between my legs. 03:57:01 i have heard short-term memory only has room for about 7 items 03:57:39 That can be expanded with practice. 04:12:35 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:24:29 -!- augur has joined. 05:17:08 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:17:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:32:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:27:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:27:42 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 06:28:12 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit). 06:28:27 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 06:35:08 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 06:56:18 -!- lament has joined. 07:09:50 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Night all). 07:11:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:02:51 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:11:08 -!- fax has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 08:17:40 -!- lament has joined. 08:24:08 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:32:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:39:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:05:55 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 09:12:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:16:50 -!- cal153 has quit. 09:54:00 -!- tombom has joined. 10:01:16 Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names? 10:01:21 s/hot/host/ 10:19:29 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:21:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:50:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:56:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:06:59 -!- alise has joined. 11:07:14 *tap tap tap* 11:07:17 Is this thing on? 11:07:20 ///FEEDBACK 11:07:26 ///static 11:07:40 Mrrf unt rffp krrngk rrt, rrrr///FEEDBACK 11:07:45 Hello? ...There. 11:07:48 Dispatch #xkcd. 11:07:53 That is, No. xkcd. 11:08:01 Alert officially de-classified. 11:08:44 19:20:33 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com 11:08:45 19:20:33 --- kick: uorygl was kicked by oerjan (uorygl) 11:08:46 Oh my. 11:10:26 02:01:16 Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names? 11:10:30 Because Wikipedia is tooootally hot 11:12:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:13:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:13:57 15:18:17 I see Alise's school hours 11:13:57 ? 11:17:17 08:50:15 Yes. My thoughts were more along the lines of making punctuation just be a very, very short way of writing some sort of word or phrase that should be said in various places. For instance, "foo, bar, qux quuxy." would be read as "foo comma bar comma qux quuxy stop". 11:17:19 ' is pronounced h in lojban 11:18:18 10:47:46 Not even erotic Core War fanfics? How strange. 11:18:22 It'd have to be vore! 11:19:01 "As eras1b2v3 slowly ate at every single bit of standstill, it moaned by copying a few bits after it in the tape and wriggling along... but eras1b2v3 was too fast for it, and soon it was completely consumed." 11:19:05 Ahem. 11:20:44 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 11:25:31 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 11:25:34 -!- cheater3 has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 11:25:55 20:39:37 dd just craps out on errors. ddrescue goes crazy and gets the data off the disc anyways. 11:25:57 reminds me of cdparanoia 11:25:59 -!- cheater3 has joined. 11:26:54 16:18:10 Malcolm Gladwell has some theories in his book Outliers, nooga 11:26:56 i have a theory that malcom gladwell is a charlatan 11:27:01 but i need 10,000 hours to confirm it... 11:28:18 16:50:50 ah, there's nothing better than setting your alarm clock in cron 11:28:22 apart from not setting your alarm clock at all 11:32:10 alise: hey honey 11:32:15 :| 11:32:19 ? 11:32:31 being called honey is possibly the biggest motivation so far to change my nick back :D 11:32:44 it's a standard greeting from me 11:33:15 oh so I can't escape no matter what i do :D 11:33:56 So, UK election results: All the votes have been counted, and we still don't know who's won. 11:34:04 In fact nobody's won. State of complete anarchy. Have fun. 11:34:11 (I gather this is how it works.) 11:34:35 alise: as i posted on facebook, perhaps a better question to ask is "who lost?" 11:34:46 Society :P 11:34:53 (no idea why i did that highlight there) 11:35:02 well... i was thinking "everyone", but yes 11:35:29 I like how everybody was so excited about the Lib Dems that they forgot to vote for them entirely. 11:35:44 Well, they can't win anyway, right? Neither can the Conservatives :P 11:36:08 you did notice that they had a higher popular vote, and a higher popular vote %age than in 2005, yes? 11:36:50 but admittedly, yes, i think that a lot of the people who wanted to vote lib dem ended up not doing so, because of tactical voting 11:36:53 Yes, but it's still nowhere near what everyone was raving about. 11:37:03 Some good that tactical voting did :-) 11:37:12 lib dem support dropped between debate 1 and debate 3 11:38:03 at least we've finally got a nice American Presidential election system 11:38:14 alise: i had something shived through my door wednesday evening saying "in 71 constituencies (yours is one of them), the best way to keep the tories out is to vote labour" 11:38:37 Well, it kept everybody out! 11:38:40 Which might actually be an improvement... 11:39:29 and that + similar pushes from the tories ("vote clegg, get brown") meant that those who wanted to vote lib dem switched to keep $CHOSEN_ENEMY out 11:40:16 my mother did very strongly consider voting labour to stop the tories here 11:40:18 These people are tarnishing the good name of rational tactical voting :P 11:40:23 yes 11:40:37 If I was Russell O'Connor, I would be advocating stochastic elections. 11:40:38 i think that kinda backfired though 11:40:39 because 11:40:50 labour came 3rd here (Bristol North West) 11:40:54 (where tactical voting becomes "honest" voting) 11:41:24 "The stocastic voting system is the only voting system that gives proportional representation, local representatives, and where stratigic voting is never advantageous." 11:41:25 and i do wonder if, had there not been such a late push from labour, the lib dems would've taken it 11:41:59 what sort of voting system i would like to see has been on my mind the last couple of days 11:42:15 on the one hand, people voted for national reasons 11:42:22 but on the other, some people voted for local reasons 11:42:53 Stochastic election system: 11:42:56 [[I propose the following election system for Canada. In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat. 11:42:57 Random number generation can be done by having every candidate select a number between 1 and n (the number of votes cast). The selected numbers are summed modulo n, and the result is used to select the winner. 11:42:57 And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years.]] 11:42:57 one of my friends voted conservative over lib dem because of local issues 11:43:03 Results &c: 11:43:06 http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html 11:43:06 http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html 11:43:09 http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html 11:43:16 http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html 11:43:21 haahah 11:43:29 pineapple: no, I don't think you understand; he is serious 11:43:52 so... FPTP but, in each constituency, the %age vote is the chance that the candidate wins that seat? 11:44:04 Actually statistically it is perfectly benign and actually gives really good properties such that voting as you really want is the best possible strategy and such, but most people are probably too scared of "randomness" to like it 11:44:19 pineapple: yep 11:44:38 i can see many people hating that idea with a passion 11:44:51 [[This is only one example of the results of a stochastic election. Because of the stochastic nature of the election process, actual results may differ. 11:44:52 In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2006 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]] 11:45:01 pineapple: Yes; most people do not really understand randomness. 11:45:08 "why the fuck would i want the prime minister to be decided by a dice roll???" 11:45:17 O'Connor's radical but he's always interesting. 11:45:20 but they miss the point 11:45:23 Now if only he posted to his blog more. 11:45:24 if you want really random 11:45:27 you use only a few dice 11:45:30 preferably 1 11:45:34 :D 11:45:41 just pull the prime minister out of a hat 11:45:42 this would be like rolling 650 imprefect dice 11:45:45 (not his name; the prime minister himself) 11:45:49 hahahah 11:45:58 it would have to be a very big hat. 11:46:03 quite 11:46:03 but that's the price we have to pay for democracy 11:46:08 but... no, i like this idea 11:46:19 and you say that this is used in Canada? 11:46:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 11:46:39 nooo 11:46:44 [[In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2008 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]] 11:46:49 it's just that Russell O'Connor is Canadian 11:46:52 aaah, ok 11:46:53 so obviously he proposes this for Canada 11:47:00 i see 11:47:10 damn, he's progressive 11:47:19 and he simulates the results as if things were stochastic. Although of course his results are not accurate, because it will use tactical votes, which would happen less in a stochastic system (only idiots would do them because they would not help at all) 11:47:34 pineapple: He's also an anarchist; I'm not sure how those two things gel together but there you go. 11:47:40 Let's elect our no government. 11:47:43 you know the one thing this would do if applied here? 11:47:50 it would make no-one safe 11:47:57 not cabinet members 11:48:01 It would backfire horribly as most people wouldn't believe that tactical votes wouldn't work :-D 11:48:10 Perhaps we'd get the entire in a few hundred years. 11:48:14 not the Speaker of the house (see results for Buckingham) 11:48:23 not even the party leaders! 11:48:41 NOT EVEN THE CITIZENS 11:48:55 "Dear First Last, 11:49:06 We are writing to inform you that you have not been elected in the recent stochastic citizen elections. 11:49:12 Goodbye. 11:49:19 Yours sincerely, 11:49:21 Robot Evilus" 11:49:23 i so hope that someone does a simulation based on our election results 11:49:26 11:49:42 pineapple: Ask him to :P he already has the code, and Canada shares our system 11:49:45 r.oconnor@cs.ru.nl 11:50:08 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:53:02 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:53:37 -!- yiyus has joined. 11:54:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:54:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:56:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:56:23 Orq. 11:57:38 alise! 11:58:34 Ghostly vacuum cleaner! 11:59:32 Why did you replace your wiki user page with Gone? ;| 11:59:34 *:| 11:59:37 WERE YOU RUNNING AWAY FROM ME 11:59:40 You cannot deny it. 12:01:13 See, he silences. 12:02:56 No, I was reading the stuff that you said why I was gone. 12:03:02 s/why/while/ 12:03:31 And I could ask you why you have two wiki accounts. 12:05:34 You were gone for an entire day :P 12:05:34 Also, I have more like three or four... 12:05:59 No, I mean this morning. 12:06:47 And when I was your age I only had one wiki account! 12:06:53 I'm a darned whippersnapper. 12:06:56 A second hand one which smelt funny! 12:07:04 And didn't quite fit! 12:07:21 Anyway I just forget my passwords, or start disliking the names, usually. 12:07:22 I think I made the first account when I was 12 or 13. 12:07:22 And had suspicious stains! 12:08:18 Also, the wiki *really* needs basic stuff like account creation logs. 12:08:18 Meh. 12:08:18 IIRC it doesn't even have cite. 12:08:40 It's done us well since 2005; if we were to change the software, I'd say we should even move off MediaWiki to something simpler. 12:08:42 Considering we use perhaps 30% of its features. 12:11:25 Phantom_Hoover: newer versions of mediawiki log account creation 12:11:25 like... 1.15 12:11:25 (which has been the current stable version for a while) 12:11:25 You can get it on older versions, it just doesn't come by default. 12:14:50 -!- MizardX has quit (*.net *.split). 12:14:51 -!- Gracenotes has quit (*.net *.split). 12:14:51 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 12:15:02 What does *.net *.split mean? 12:15:08 Net split. 12:15:16 When two servers in the network lose their connection to each other. 12:15:22 And the *.? 12:15:32 That's just to make it work with the syntax of IRC. 12:15:33 I think. 12:15:39 It used to be (server1 server2). 12:15:42 I guess they are masking that now. 12:15:47 In case you don't know: Everyone on IRC is connected to one server in a network. 12:15:50 These are all connected together. 12:15:59 When you send a message, it propagates through all the servers, eventually reaching everyone. 12:16:07 When two servers lose their connection to each other, messages can obviously not pass between them. 12:16:21 So the people who your messages reach via the two servers disconnect from your end. 12:16:26 From their end, all of us will have disconnected. 12:16:35 So we're on the better side of the split; they only have three people, we have everyone else. 12:16:44 They should reconnect soon once the split is over. 12:20:07 -!- MizardX has joined. 12:20:07 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 12:20:07 -!- Deewiant has joined. 12:26:24 Hi Deewiant. 12:29:26 Phantom_Hoover: the traditional netsplit message shows which servers have split 12:29:49 many networks these days hide which servers have split off in one way or another 12:30:02 freenode does this as of ircd-seven 12:34:37 Why, I wonder. 12:34:40 Is it a trade secret? 12:35:03 You don't want to know. 12:36:07 Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN 12:36:24 it can give away information about the network topology 12:36:34 Well, that's what *they* tell you. 12:36:37 pineapple: gasp 12:36:39 which can be used by people to attack the network 12:37:15 And you really *don't* want to know what the network topology is. 12:37:26 ? 12:37:54 Count yourself lucky that you haven't found out. 12:40:41 07:25:37 here's a nice mnemonic: -a looks at the entities, -e looks at the architectures 12:40:43 lol 12:45:22 * alise comes up with a ridiculous idea. 12:45:48 If it involves the Freenode network topology, just stop. 12:45:52 For your own sake. 12:46:23 no 12:47:05 08:06:20 and what do we learn from this? I think one of the things may be "free market is yet again proved not to work" 12:47:10 I don't think the FPGA situation is /anywhere near/ a free market. 12:47:16 What was your ridiculous idea? 12:47:29 SECRET 12:47:35 Bah 12:47:38 (It involves bunnies, tries, and rape-murder.) 12:47:42 Also trees. 12:47:46 I didn't mean to write tries. But it involves tries too. 12:47:48 And hash tables. 12:48:01 The end result is, surprisingly enough, custard. 12:48:09 A hash table that works on bunnies and trees? 12:48:49 Sssh. 12:49:17 Whatever you do, don't try to use it to find out the Freenode network topology. 12:52:57 10:10:27 any linux tools for verilog btw? 12:52:57 10:11:08 no free ones that I know of 12:52:58 yes. 12:53:05 iverilog 12:53:30 Command not found is useful. 12:53:57 10:58:18 apparently GSOC gave me a free membership in ACM for a year 12:54:07 download EVERYTHING 12:54:34 And then give it to me. 12:54:56 But make sure you don't use anything that tells you the Freenode network topology. 12:55:37 11:26:21 So, are there any decent free CASs? 12:55:38 11:26:34 I've tried Maxima, but I was wondering. 12:55:38 11:26:51 Maxima's pretty much it. 12:55:38 axiom, too 12:55:43 and some misc ones like sage 12:55:44 all suck 12:55:47 pirate mathematica, or w/e 12:55:52 w/e? 12:56:09 Whatever... 12:56:42 w/e = whatever 13:27:58 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:29:09 -!- alise has joined. 13:29:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:29:36 Ping pong... 13:35:36 ponggg 13:35:42 !ping 13:35:59 `ping 13:36:00 pong 13:36:15 `ping esolangs.org 13:36:16 pong 13:36:43 `cat bin/ping 13:36:44 #!/bin/bash \ echo pong 13:36:59 `/bin/ping 13:37:00 No output. 13:37:03 `sh /usr/bin/ping 13:37:04 No output. 13:37:06 `sh /usr/bin/ping 2>&1 13:37:07 No output. 13:37:09 `sh /bin/ping 2>&1 13:37:11 No output. 13:37:15 HMM 13:37:17 `sh /bin/ping esolangs.org 13:37:17 `sh /bin/ping sex.com 13:37:18 No output. 13:37:27 No output. 13:37:47 `sh /usr/bin/ping esolangs.org 13:37:48 No output. 13:37:55 `which ping 13:37:56 /tmp/hackenv.14674/bin/ping 13:38:07 `ls /bin 13:38:08 bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less 13:38:22 `ls /usr/bin 13:38:23 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug 13:38:53 `ls /tmp/hackenv.14674/bin 13:38:54 No output. 13:42:51 'ls /sbin | grep ping 13:43:02 bah 13:43:05 `ls /sbin | grep ping 13:43:06 No output. 13:43:13 `ls /bin | grep ping 13:43:14 No output. 13:43:19 `ls /usr/bin | grep ping 13:43:20 No output. 13:43:22 `ls /usr/sbin | grep ping 13:43:23 No output. 13:43:30 `which ping 13:43:31 /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping 13:43:52 `/tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping esolangs.org 13:43:53 No output. 13:44:12 `ls -l /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping 13:44:13 No output. 13:44:19 bugger 13:44:27 !help 13:44:28 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 13:44:42 It's appending the PID to the hackenv. 13:44:56 It must start a new process, so the name changes 13:44:59 `echo $$ 13:45:00 $$ 13:45:11 `sh -c "echo $$" 13:45:12 No output. 13:45:34 `echo 'echo $$' | sh 13:45:35 'echo $$' | sh 13:45:53 `sh -c 'echo hello' 13:45:54 No output. 13:46:06 `echo echo 13:46:07 echo 13:46:22 Yeah, but I need the $$ env variable. 13:47:12 -!- nooga has joined. 13:47:20 nooga! 13:47:26 -!- nooga has left (?). 13:47:32 -!- nooga has joined. 13:47:42 nooga! 13:47:45 -!- nooga has left (?). 13:47:48 -!- nooga has joined. 13:47:50 hahah 13:47:57 `echo $@ 13:47:58 Make up your mind! 13:47:58 $@ 13:48:29 `echo fred > fred 13:48:30 fred > fred 13:48:38 `w 13:48:40 12:48:15 up 69 days, 7:23, 0 users, load average: 0.17, 0.11, 0.03 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT 13:49:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:49:54 beh 13:50:10 Of most unacceptable Geoff'ry; 13:50:51 What commands let you write directly to files from the command line? 13:51:11 `sh echo FUCK >fuckness 13:51:12 No output. 13:51:14 `cat fuckness 13:51:16 No output. 13:51:21 I think it has to be somewhere special to persist. 13:51:22 `ls 13:51:23 bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.15837 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 13:51:30 Huh. 13:51:30 `pwd 13:51:32 /tmp/hackenv.15880 13:51:35 `pwd 13:51:36 /tmp/hackenv.15919 13:51:42 It's not persistent/ 13:51:46 `ls .. 13:51:47 hackenv.15966 13:52:10 The directory must be deleted between each run. 13:52:18 `ls bin 13:52:20 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 13:52:32 `cat bin/wolfram 13:52:33 #!/bin/bash \ WA='http://www24.wolframalpha.com' \ \ dowget() { \ wget -U "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.0.11) Gecko/2009060214 Firefox/3.0.11" "$@" \ return "$?" \ } \ \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " 13:53:14 `wolfram solve 1/x = x-1 13:53:22 It is not really such a good interface. 13:53:25 No output. 13:53:26 And why isn't it working? 13:53:43 Someone said that Wolfram changed the interface. 13:53:54 Apparently that script is against the TOS. 13:54:05 Of course it is. 13:54:10 A shit is not given. 13:54:35 Oh. 13:54:38 Alpha fails at that, heh. 13:54:46 True, but it explains why they wouldn't be too concerned with making it possible for a script to use it. 13:54:59 `wolfram solve x = 1 + (1/x) 13:55:04 No output. 13:55:16 `wolfram solve x^2 = 2 13:55:21 No output. 13:55:32 Wut. 13:55:54 Like I said, the script doesn't work with Alpha at all. 13:56:11 -!- SimonRC has joined. 13:58:21 burp 13:58:38 `esolang 13:59:18 Use: `esolang 13:59:18 `esolang Lazy K 13:59:18 Lazy K, designed by [6]Ben Rudiak-Gould, is a [7]Turing tarpit based on [8]combinatory logic. It is lazily evaluated and purely functional. \ \ Contents \ \ * [9]1 History \ * [10]2 Instructions \ * [11]3 Input and output \ * [12]4 Lazier \ * [13]5 Hello world \ * [14]6 See also 14:04:17 -!- MizardX has quit (*.net *.split). 14:04:17 -!- Gracenotes has quit (*.net *.split). 14:04:17 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 14:07:04 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:07:04 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:07:04 -!- Deewiant has joined. 14:08:33 phi = -2 sin(666 degrees) 14:08:33 dun dun DUN 14:08:33 Sin! 666! 14:08:37 It is the devil's ratio. 14:08:58 `calc sin 2 14:08:59 sin(2) = 0.909297427 14:09:45 `calc sin 666 14:09:45 sin(666) = -0.0176416458 14:09:45 that's in radians 14:09:45 probably 14:09:45 `calc -2 * sin 666 14:09:45 (-2) * sin(666) = 0.0352832916 14:09:45 `calc -2 * sin(666 * 180/pi) 14:09:45 (-2) * sin((666 * 180) / pi) = -1.86752473 14:09:45 er wait 14:09:45 wrong way around 14:09:50 `calc -2 * sin(666 * pi/180) 14:09:51 (-2) * sin((666 * pi) / 180) = 1.61803399 14:10:12 = pi/180 14:10:32 I know! 14:12:40 Well, then why did you do that calculation? 14:12:40 I couldn't be bothered to do it¬ 14:12:40 Properly, I mean! 14:13:00 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 14:13:40 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:14:08 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 14:16:22 hmm 14:17:23 equivalent to sin(3/10 radians) = (1+sqrt(5)/4 14:17:41 radians = 1 14:17:52 indicating it's radians instead of degrees 14:17:55 perhaps you meant sin_rad(3/10) to distinguish the two functions :P 14:18:15 I guess if you take sin = sin_deg usually it makes sense and radians = 180/pi 14:18:19 but I don't think anybody does that... 14:20:07 grr... we really need a mathematica bot in here, it would be nice. 14:29:44 Someone would need to buy or pirate it. 14:30:03 And if Freenode found out, they wouldn't be pleased/ 14:32:08 you can always go with a 'wolfram alpha' bot 14:32:27 We *had* one of them, but Wolfram broke it. 14:32:45 `wolfram Why did you break this bot? 14:32:53 No output. 14:32:56 See? 14:33:29 Someone would need to buy or pirate it. 14:33:35 freenode would not give a shit 14:33:37 it's our client, our responsibility 14:33:43 Oh. 14:33:45 OK. 14:33:46 and i already have it pirated anyway... although not on this machine 14:34:04 I'd get it on this machine but I'm on 3G internet and it's ~4GB 14:34:07 well 14:34:11 more like 600mb downloading 14:34:16 (since it decompresses and downloads stuff) 14:34:19 (and stuff) 14:34:22 actually it's more like 1gb 14:34:24 why did i say 4 14:34:44 dang, mathematica is huge 14:34:49 So Freenode aren't responsible if someone makes an open interface to Mathematica? 14:34:52 what is it 1gb -of- 14:34:53 surely not oode? 14:35:10 not code 14:35:11 just random shit 14:35:14 rofl 14:35:16 also that's the os x version 14:35:21 i don't think their os x version is their most optimised... 14:35:27 oh haha 14:35:40 and i think i cached parts of wolfram's data repositories 14:35:41 Patashu: remember that mathematica is /the/ biggest ball of mud ever conceived of 14:37:30 * alise considers getting the non-3g connection to work 14:39:07 Mathematica isn't all that hot, really, but it's more reliable than Alpha and has more stuff. 14:39:25 And it's better than the free CASes? 14:39:29 brb 14:39:31 Phantom_Hoover: yes, by far. 14:39:35 Maple is also a good pay CAS. 14:39:36 Actually, duh. 14:39:44 brb to set up my net 14:41:31 alise: As for why I didn't do a Mathemabot; our campus licenses are from a limited, shared pool that manages to be sometimes empty; they wouldn't probably be very happy if were to tie one of them to a IRC-bot. Not to mention it might not be quite according to the license terms. 14:42:09 Surely Wolfram don't want you giving access to Mathematica from a public channel? 14:42:26 Yes, that sounds possible. 14:43:03 Though I doubt they would care that much. 14:43:05 but would it be permissible if, say 14:43:10 I asked you to do a calculation on mathematica for me? 14:43:19 Obviously. 14:43:36 The student license of Mathematica is pretty reasonably priced, anyhow. It's just that you're supposed to upgrade it to real license (with a nice discount) when studies end. 14:44:27 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:48:08 fizzie: What's the difference between the versions? 15:04:44 -!- alise has joined. 15:04:50 Ah, alise. 15:04:54 ``O LORDY ON HIGH-- 15:04:55 No output. 15:05:02 Pirated Mathematica yet? 15:05:09 “O LORDY ON HIGH-- 15:05:14 Weird. 15:05:22 '' I've not. 15:05:25 Connection is not working. 15:05:27 Still 3G. 15:05:31 Download 600mb via 3G, I think not. 15:05:54 I pondered it. 15:06:56 Mm. 15:06:59 Are you on Linux? 15:07:06 The GUI on Linux is very, very bad and laggy. 15:07:36 Is there a command-line? 15:07:56 Yes; but you lose a lot of the shiny-pretties that are partly the reason to use Mathematica, and also it's harder to read the output. 15:08:02 Mathematical notation is not very well textised. 15:08:16 True. 15:08:48 OTOH, I have no practical options other than Linux. 15:09:16 Maybe consider Maple? I haven't used it but it doesn't seem too bad. 15:09:56 I'm scared that Peter Mandelson will have me sniped. 15:10:06 The website is significantly more cheesy though. 15:11:42 The nice things about Mathematica over Alpha are (a) more supported functions and the like, (b) far less ambiguous syntax, and (c) you can create definitions and use them later. 15:11:50 Which allows a far wider exploration of theoretical stuffs. 15:12:07 I wonder... 15:12:44 You wonder what? 15:12:54 Shh! 15:13:00 I'm wondering! 15:14:46 Yeah, it looks like Alpha can't do lambda calculus. 15:14:50 Yeah. 15:15:17 I assume that Mathematica can. 15:15:31 Though it's probably applicative-order. 15:19:28 Actually you can do it however you want. 15:19:34 Oh. 15:19:37 Mathematica is a symbolic language; it's just tree-writing, so everything is inspectable. 15:19:40 Sort of like quoting /everything/ in Lisp. 15:20:10 So you'd have to write your own evaluators? 15:25:05 Sure... but that's really easy. 15:25:29 I mean, in Mathematica, you do derivatives with e.g. D[x^2, x]. 15:25:29 D is just a normal function -- well, a built-in, but still -- 15:25:31 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 15:25:43 and it takes "symbolic" arguments like that. 15:26:20 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 15:33:15 -!- wareya has joined. 15:41:36 alise: Are you on Linux? 15:41:46 yes. 15:41:59 Which? 15:42:18 `banner hi 15:42:20 No output. 15:42:25 bah 15:42:29 `ls bin 15:42:30 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 15:42:35 Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu 9.04(!) atm. 15:42:38 `fortune 15:42:39 To be considered successful, a woman must be much better at her job \ than a man would have to be. Fortunately, this isn't difficult. 15:42:46 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2). 15:42:46 `fortune 15:42:47 This must be morning. I never could get the hang of mornings. 15:42:48 `fortune 15:42:50 Paul's Law: \In America, it's not how much an item costs, it's how much you save. 15:42:52 `sayhi 15:42:52 `fortune 15:42:53 hi, all 15:42:54 A good reputation is more valuable than money. \-- Publilius Syrus 15:43:02 OK, I'm done. 15:43:11 `unstr huh 15:43:12 No output. 15:43:22 `esolang 15:43:23 Use: `esolang 15:43:27 `esolang befunge 15:43:27 `asdfgbabble 15:43:29 Befunge is a two-dimensional [6]esoteric programming language invented in 1993 by [7]Chris Pressey with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. \ \ Contents \ \ * [8]1 History \ * [9]2 Etymology \ * [10]3 Language overview \ * [11]4 Instructions \ * [12]5 Computational 15:43:29 No output. 15:47:25 tex + exec ends up as a very strange-looking word: texexec 15:47:41 (and yes, that exists in /usr/bin for me) 15:50:02 Teh sex, eck. 15:57:58 Tex-x-x 15:58:15 "now with more x!" 15:58:25 XXX, even. 15:58:31 XXX hot barely legal TeX implementations. 16:06:28 hehe 16:11:38 "This is a LOLCODE interpreter I wrote as a project for my Computer Programming class." ... wow, somebody used it in school ^_^ 16:11:46 http://www.assembla.com/code/iqpk/subversion/nodes/islip 16:12:01 license: WTFPL ;-) 16:12:42 also the proper way to address an MP is (this was asked a while ago iirc) 16:12:54 The Right Honourable First Last MP 16:13:09 The Rt. Hon. First Last MP for short should do. 16:13:38 MP? 16:14:01 Member of Parliament. 16:14:22 so I presume "Yo, bonesmoker!" ain't kosher? ;-) 16:15:06 " 'Ey, Smeghead, so how it's goin', parlamentin' 'n stuff?" 16:16:51 I guess if you really wanted to be formal in a way nobody else is, you would say 16:17:02 The Right Honourable Nick Clegg, Member of Parliament 16:19:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:19:22 The Right Honourable Oer Jan, Member of Esotericment 16:19:24 hi oerjan 16:19:35 *rjan Johansomething 16:19:42 Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names? 16:19:45 hi alise! 16:19:55 my name-memorising & norwegtongue-spelling is not so good. 16:20:08 I can never spell Norwegian. I always type Norweigan. 16:20:23 Phantom_Hoover: it's because of masked hostnames 16:20:32 somebody's in #wikipedia, asks an ircop "hey MASK ME" and voila wikipedia/ 16:20:39 Phantom_Hoover: those are "cloaks" i believe, you can register one if you don't want people to see your IP. 16:21:28 -!- lament has joined. 16:21:41 Ah, the late lamented. 16:21:46 alise: you almost had it correct. just remember that it's -sen in norwegian and danish, but -son in swedish. mostly. 16:22:14 Johansen, then. 16:22:28 and it's pronounced yohan yohansen, I hope 16:22:32 sometimes -sson in swedish, but never -ssen in the others 16:22:33 I know your first name is vaguely pronounced yohan 16:22:38 I just hope that Johan is pronounced ~yohan too 16:22:54 yes it is, but they are not pronounced the same ;D 16:23:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Johansson 16:23:42 there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan. 16:24:17 mind if I call you double-Y for long? 16:24:23 Hey, double y, how's it hanginnnnnnnnn 16:24:25 yes. 16:24:42 my first name does _not_ start with y, dammit. 16:25:01 although incidentally there is a lot of dialect variation between y and ø in norwegian 16:25:03 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:04 Teh sex, eck. <-- not what I meant XD 16:25:21 oerjan: fine then, double- 16:25:26 double- seven 16:25:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Johansson 16:25:52 But there's only one Ø. 16:25:59 so if you appeared in an episode of the Simpsons, oerjan, as a new member of the Simpsons family, you'd be .J. Simpson 16:26:01 true story. 16:26:03 "American-born Canadian actor" ... sounds weird 16:26:03 there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan. <-- is that common? 16:26:14 AnMaster: obviously not, or it wouldn't be notable 16:26:20 yep, Yrjan is an actual norwegian name. very rare though, only 40 persons or so http://www.norskenavn.no/navn.php?id=2491 16:26:37 hah 16:27:17 also, you will sometimes find people defying the -sen/-son distinction by actually descending from the other country, naturally 16:27:27 Yran 16:27:34 DOES THAT WORK 16:27:34 hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language. 16:27:53 (that doesn't mean there doesn't exist other ones) 16:27:54 y of course 16:28:34 oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir". 16:28:51 Phantom_Hoover, isn't it pronounced mostly like ö? 16:28:55 (Swedish ö that is) 16:29:10 ;P 16:29:24 According to WP, yes. 16:29:37 Phantom_Hoover, btw, which English accents are non-rhotic? 16:29:42 Except ö is long. 16:29:46 AnMaster: Yohan is so rare that that website doesn't have it. "Grunnen er at det er 3 eller færre som har dette som første fornavn i Norge, og disse er derfor ikke tatt med i navnelistene som er mottatt fra Statistisk sentralbyrå av personvernhensyn." 16:29:47 k k k! 16:30:12 i.e. it's so rare it would be a privacy violation to include it. 16:30:33 AnMaster: Most of England, I think Wales, Australia and NZ. 16:30:39 ah 16:30:43 -!- lament has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:30:44 no rarer than Dromhall (or whatever it was) ;-) 16:30:45 Phantom_Hoover, most except US then? 16:30:51 AnMaster: yngvar, yngve, those aren't swedish names? 16:30:59 yngwie, yes ... famous guitarist 16:31:00 oerjan, okay, three then 16:31:27 oerjan, wait two 16:31:34 oerjan, it is ingvar and ungve 16:31:35 err 16:31:37 yngve* 16:31:43 yngvar I never seen 16:32:05 * Phantom_Hoover needs to reboot 16:32:10 oh. it exists in norwegian. Yngvar Numme is a comedian. 16:32:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:32:15 oerjan, as for the one I originally thought of, googling indicates it is French in origin 16:32:23 also Ingvar and Ingvard (my father's name) 16:32:41 (it was "Yvonne", which is not very common, but neither very rare) 16:32:48 shouldn't you be rjan Ingvardsen then :D 16:32:48 (and that is a female name) 16:32:49 * alise shot 16:32:52 Yngvar == Yvonne ????? 16:32:56 Rugxulo, no 16:33:16 oh yvonne yeah that's probably french 16:33:18 Rugxulo, yvonne was the one I thought of originally when I said: hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language. 16:33:30 yes, Yvonne is french, same as Yves 16:33:44 Rugxulo, it is not completely uncommon in Sweden though 16:33:48 Yuri (probably Russian) 16:33:49 while yves is 16:34:08 Yoda :-P 16:34:16 oerjan, btw, yngve sounds archaic to me 16:34:27 Rugxulo, well, who knows what language that comes from 16:34:49 I wish Mathematica was... small. 16:35:01 alise, oh? In what sense? 16:35:03 AnMaster: chances are yohan will pick up now though, with the movie 16:35:03 Yvette, another French name 16:35:06 AnMaster: Bits. 16:35:11 oerjan, what movie? 16:35:18 You cannot easily pirate some hundreds of megabytes on a 3G connection. 16:35:24 alise, in memory usage while running or? 16:35:24 ah 16:35:44 alise, but didn't you have it before too? 16:35:47 alise: norwegian -sen names aren't patronymicons any longer, only the icelandic do that afaik 16:35:55 AnMaster: on another machine, alas. 16:35:57 * Rugxulo slaps alise with a trut 16:35:59 (the laptop) 16:36:02 alise, ah 16:36:09 oerjan, patronymicons? 16:36:18 AnMaster: "Yohan Barnevandreren" is a new norwegian movie this year. i haven't seen it. 16:36:21 ah 16:36:32 AnMaster: surnames based on father's first name 16:36:37 oerjan, okay right 16:36:47 as -sen and -son originally were 16:36:55 that raises another question: how the hell can that concept be named "patronymicons" 16:37:09 Greek 16:37:13 "patronymicons" is a really strange thing for, well, anything at all 16:37:23 la:pater = father, gr:onyma = name 16:37:27 s/strange thing/strange name/ 16:37:31 oerjan, and the icons? 16:37:32 nym = name (Greek) 16:37:33 possible gr:pater = father too 16:37:41 oerjan, gr? 16:37:46 oh greek 16:37:46 yeah patriarchy ~~ patro 16:38:02 pseudonym ~~ nym 16:38:08 eponym 16:38:08 okay so the "pateronym" bit makes sense, the "icons" bit does not 16:38:16 -icon = -ic-on where -ic is like in electric and -on is the neuter nominative ending in greek 16:38:17 ic ~~ as in "epic" 16:38:20 forget "icons", that's a bogus ending anyways 16:38:29 ons ~~ set, collection, sort of thing? 16:38:33 That's a really bad description, but 16:38:37 it doesn't require any knowledge of latin or greek :P 16:38:38 oerjan, does -ic in electric have some special meaning? 16:38:46 electric, epic 16:38:50 -satisfying-property 16:38:51 I never learned (ancient) Greek, but I think "on" is normal subject ending and "os" is plural (or such) 16:38:57 AnMaster: it's just a greek way to turn a noun into an adjective 16:38:58 if a name is patronymic 16:39:00 i think 16:39:01 oerjan, ah I see 16:39:04 well 16:39:06 if a thing is patronymic 16:39:10 it is a name that descends from fathers 16:39:16 pyrrhic, classic, technique, etc. 16:39:19 ons -- the set of all things that are patronymic 16:39:21 patronymicons 16:39:24 oerjan, so electricity is noun -> adjective -> noun? 16:39:24 AnMaster: like -lig in no/sw 16:39:36 electr 16:39:49 television -> Greek-based word 16:39:51 AnMaster: yeah greek electric + lating -itas 16:39:59 oerjan, eh? removing -lig from the first three words with that ending that I thought of returned nonsense 16:40:21 AnMaster: barnlig for example? 16:40:37 s/three/two/ <-- weird typo 16:40:40 oerjan, "förnulig" "gullig" 16:40:51 that gives nonsene if you remove the "-lig" 16:41:07 AnMaster: well swedish may have mangled things historically, like every other language 16:41:13 oerjan, also barnlig must be Norwegian only? Is it perhaps the same as sv:barnslig 16:41:19 isn't that guld + -lig or something? 16:41:30 oerjan, gullig ~ cute 16:41:33 AnMaster: actually it's barnslig in norwegian too 16:41:51 AnMaster: sounds like it could come from gul[dl] 16:41:57 hm perhaps 16:42:19 except barnlig is sometimes used as a more positive version i think 16:42:30 oerjan, eh? 16:42:43 barnslig has the connotation of immature, while barnlig is more child-like 16:42:53 different connotations 16:43:03 hm 16:43:08 and barnlig doesn't exist in Swedish 16:43:10 i don't think barnlig is so common though 16:43:18 but yes barnslig means immature 16:43:32 more or less 16:43:38 oerjan, btw how would you translate förnurlig to English? 16:43:42 mre r less 16:44:05 Argh, why are big-operator notations so hard to translate into ASCII? 16:44:30 Rugxulo, you know, to someone who actually know a language where that letter exists and read it like it is supposed to be pronounced, that ends up very strange. 16:44:43 I guess I quite like "∑(k=m, n) x" for $\sum_{k=m}^n x$. 16:44:55 no stranger than some other esoteric languages lk 16:45:19 Rugxulo, but try reading that aloud as it should be pronounced :P 16:45:34 for me, it's all pronounced the same ;-) 16:45:38 ghti 16:45:45 Rugxulo, didn't wikipedia tell you how 16:45:52 n, I didn't check 16:45:53 you said something like something in some accents 16:46:08 oh wait 16:46:10 not you 16:46:10 prbably nt me 16:46:11 alise: -on in greek has nothing with sets to do, it's just a case/gender ending. 16:46:15 that was oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir". 16:46:18 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:46:21 Rugxulo, but now you know too 16:46:28 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:46:43 * Rugxulo still can't understand how to pronounce Ejdffakasdkjfasdfalkv 16:46:44 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:46:58 -!- nooga has joined. 16:46:58 Rugxulo, what? 16:47:06 the vlcan 16:47:16 argh stop those ø :( 16:47:20 heh, sorry 16:47:24 Eyjafjallajökull 16:47:27 Deewiant, right 16:47:32 Rugxulo, and I have no clue either 16:47:39 Islandic is rather.... special 16:47:40 sorry, can't be bothered to memorize the spelling of such an insane name 16:47:50 AnMaster: btw gr:electron = amber (also i'm responding to old messages i know) 16:47:51 it's pronounced Ey ya falla joke ull, obviously! 16:47:53 AnMaster: *Icelandic 16:48:08 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Eyjafjallaj%C3%B6kull-bjarmason.ogg 16:48:21 the .ogg on Wikipedia seemed to ignore the last "ull" part 16:48:31 alise, sorry, en:iceland = sv:island, en:island = sv:ö 16:48:40 "ehv-ja-jalv-kvik" (if I remember correctly, which isn't likely) 16:48:43 alise, this causes some confusion sometimes 16:48:50 islenska 16:49:12 Rugxulo, part of that volcano name makes sense for me, I can roughly split it as a concatenation of at least three parts. 16:49:22 The only "hard" part about pronouncing that is knowing that ll in Icelandic is [tl] 16:49:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:49:27 en:island = sv: 16:49:31 How often do you guys need to talk about islands? 16:49:36 Sorry, *s. 16:49:39 And that j is [j] I suppose, if you're English 16:49:41 en:river = sv:å 16:49:46 also norwegian 16:49:47 alise, haha, 16:49:53 No, seriously :P 16:49:59 we likes our geography short, you see 16:50:02 alise, also what is ös? 16:50:09 Islands. 16:50:10 Obviously. 16:50:20 insula [latin] 16:50:26 alise, no, it is a verb meaning something I don't know the English word for 16:50:34 i think that would be öar or something. øyer in norwegian. 16:50:37 if you get water *inside* a boat, you need to use that verb 16:50:42 oerjan, yes it is öar 16:51:03 Bail? 16:51:21 oar as in boat stick thingy? 16:51:29 alise: Vi vivas! 16:51:30 btw about that volcano Eyja-fjalla-jökull I think. the middle part looks similar to Swedish "fjäll", which is not the same as a mountain (sv:berg) but I think it translates to en:mountain anyway 16:51:36 Rugxulo: The ¨ matters, you know :-P 16:51:39 Phantom_Hoover, it is to move the water out of the boat 16:51:40 alise: the surprising thing about eyjafjallajökull pronunciation (for a norwegian) is that the ll's are more like dl 16:51:52 Phantom_Hoover, not by a pump, but by hand 16:51:58 AnMaster: That would be "bail", then. 16:52:24 Phantom_Hoover, ah. Then the English phrase "bail out" makes no sense 16:52:26 pikhq: samideano? 16:52:54 Phantom_Hoover, also you can ösa without a boat being involved. Say, to fill a bucket or whatever., 16:52:55 AnMaster: Words can have more than one meaning (and phrases moreso) 16:52:56 s/,// 16:52:59 err 16:53:04 the last comma only ;P 16:53:12 Deewiant, well yes 16:53:13 s/,/,$/ 16:53:26 deewiant, wind != wind, bow != bow 16:53:30 Deewiant, yes quite, I was just too lazy to fix the sed line 16:54:29 oerjan, what about the first part? eyja? 16:54:42 oerjan, I can't figure out how to pronounce yj 16:54:43 that's islands' iirc 16:55:11 AnMaster: "y"-voiced "sh"? 16:55:19 AnMaster: [Ij] 16:55:23 AnMaster: well from the clips i've heard, it sounds like they're just prolonging the e and then passing to j 16:55:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:55:24 Deewiant, hm... 16:55:51 oerjan, ah that was much more helpful than what Phantom_Hoover and Deewiant said. 16:56:06 Phantom_Hoover was wrong :-P 16:56:15 (because I suck at IPA and also couldn't figure out what the heck ""y"-voiced "sh"" was) 16:56:34 Voiced-"sh" presumably meant the English j sound 16:56:38 ah 16:56:55 Yeah, that was a wild guess. 16:57:20 And voiced-"sh" is the French j sound. 16:57:27 oerjan, btw that thing about ll, does that apply to both the first and the second ll? 16:57:28 rot13 (probably easier to pronounce, heh): rlwnswnyynwbxhyy 16:57:30 also the last -ll makes sense when you know it's unvoiced so the actual l part is almost inaudible. or so i read. 16:57:32 I'll just paste the IPA from Wikipedia so we can stop guessing: [ˈɛɪjaˌfjatlaˌjœkʏtl] 16:57:52 Rugxulo, not in that case no 16:58:01 but a Dane could most likely manage it 16:58:09 AnMaster: Yes, it applies to all ll's in Icelandic 16:58:16 ah 16:58:29 eyjafjallajokull ??? "I, ya, fall a joke all" ??? 16:58:37 Deewiant, and do you find eyjafjallajökull easy to pronounce? 16:58:38 Except maybe some loanwords 16:58:39 the joke's on us, it's not real, we've been had! 16:58:40 AnMaster: Yes 16:58:43 It's trivial 16:58:53 oh right, Finns... 16:59:16 Rugxulo: everyone knows it's just a giant insurance scam to get away from all that debt 16:59:43 you can't trust a language without "c" or "z" ;-) 17:00:05 btw it doesn't make much sense to me that the Icelandic people should have to pay that. Shouldn't it really be that bank that had to pay it 17:00:06 poles are so trustable 17:00:07 Rugxulo: "eyafyatlayocutel" would be my initial attempt at Englishification 17:00:41 Eyjafjallajkull is really just a plot by the Icelandic people to avoid paying anything. 17:00:53 They will pepper all the discussions about paying it back with that word, so as to avoid anyone pronouncing it. 17:00:56 Thus, discussions will collapse. 17:00:56 Voiced consonants are probably *really* easy to grasp for Japanese speakers... 17:00:58 I am a genius. 17:01:17 "sh" and "j", for instance, are differentiated in their writing system by a voicing mark. 17:01:29 alise, oh btw how did the UK election work out? Saw something in the paper today about no singly party being able to rule alone. 17:01:36 ゛<- Stick that on a kana, and now it's voiced! 17:02:05 AnMaster: Yes; the Conservatives got more seats than anyone else, but not enough to form a government. 17:02:07 every kana one voice 17:02:11 AnMaster: It's hungtastic. 17:02:16 So both the Tories (Conservatives) and Labour are scrambling to make a deal with the Liberal Democrats. 17:02:26 ゜<- stick that on a kana, and it's incorrect in general 17:02:35 The Liberal Democrats really want election reform and also for Brown to resign if Labour, so basically they're going to pound both parties in the ass to get what they want. 17:02:35 alise: i also read that labour + lib dems don't have a majority in common 17:02:44 After all, if they don't co-operate with the lib dems, they won't get any power. 17:02:48 Deewiant: True. 17:02:52 oerjan: No; that's why you pile in a bunch of other random parties with them. 17:03:07 か゜I have no idea how to pronounce that. 17:03:12 random parties that never matter otherwise :) 17:03:23 alise, but can Labour + the liberal democrats rule alone? And what about minor other ones. Saw something about that in the statistics in the paper. A few seats to small parties 17:03:26 か゚ 17:03:37 mostly wales and North Ireland iirc 17:03:38 AnMaster: No, they cannot rule alone. That is why they would go to a bunch of random tiny parties. 17:03:39 alise: it also means the conservatives have more options than labour in theory, right? 17:03:43 That way they can get a government. 17:03:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/???. (oh goody) 17:03:44 oerjan: Yes. 17:03:58 looked fine when I cut/pasted it 17:04:02 Also, the Lib Dems I think would rather ally with the Tories: people really hate Labour, so people won't really like the Lib Dems if they ally with Labour. 17:04:11 Of course, the Tories and the Lib Dems are basically complete opposites... 17:04:13 alise, hm, could all those small parties + the conservatives form a government? 17:04:16 But the Lib Dems have a lot of power right now. 17:04:18 and skip on the lib dems 17:04:24 conservatives, bnp and ukip, ftw! >;D 17:04:30 AnMaster: Most of the little parties involved are left-wing. 17:04:33 'Nuff said. 17:04:33 or something like that 17:04:35 alise, ah good 17:04:53 alise, I really want to see UK's election system changed to a saner one. 17:05:07 AnMaster: But, if both Labour and the Conservatives fail to make a deal with the Lib Dems, the Conservatives will rule as a minority government until the whole country collapses from sheer indecision. 17:05:15 alise: how many small parties _are_ there? i only know of ukip and bnp 17:05:21 oerjan: tons 17:05:25 which definitely don't sound left to me 17:05:35 alise, true, that is an issue, but what are the rules for forming a minority government? 17:05:36 surely you have heard of the greens (though they barely exist and would be of ~no use) 17:05:44 but there's a bunch of scotland/ireland/wales specific left-wing parties 17:05:45 of course i only know of them because they're notorious, probably 17:05:46 etc 17:05:57 AnMaster: um there aren't any I think 17:06:10 conservatives have more seats than anyone else, but everyone else still has a bunch of power, no specific government, Q.E.D. 17:06:18 Deewiant: I dunno, perhaps as a way of differentiating /ŋ/ and /g/? 17:06:35 Shrug 17:06:58 alise, ah, but what about prime minister post and such, doesn't the parliament have to vote about that or such? 17:07:17 I'm not actually sure about minority governments. 17:07:36 and presumably that would need at least 50% yes votes or such (that tends to be the point of voting...) 17:07:54 About electoral reform, something I wrote: 17:07:56 [[ 17:07:57 In other news, a stochastic voting system (http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html) would have avoided this problem entirely. Some simulated Canadian elections with this system: 17:07:57 2004 (http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html) 17:07:57 2006: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html) 17:07:59 2008: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html) 17:08:01 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: ejajafjovkajlfasfl). 17:08:03 Note that these results are not really accurate, because they use people's tactical votes that were meant to be used on the current system. In an actual stochastic election system, tactical voting would be voting for who you really want, so the votes and thus the results would differ. 17:08:06 ]] 17:08:09 alise, "simulated elections"? 17:08:22 AnMaster: Use the real votes, calculate the outcome with the stochastic system. 17:08:25 ah 17:08:33 so data from previous elections 17:08:41 current elections, usually, but yes 17:08:44 As I say in the last paragraph, this isn't accurate as people shouldn't "tactically vote" under a stochastic system 17:08:55 (as it's useless; the most rational policy is to vote for your preferred party) 17:09:06 alise, does canada use such a stochastic system? 17:09:12 No. It's a bit radical. 17:09:16 ah 17:09:26 Of course, the problem is that most people Do Not Understand Statistics, and thus would see "random candidate with strict distribution" as "OH MY GOD YOU ARE SELECTING OUR PRIME MINISTER WITH A /DICE ROLL/!?!?!?!?!" 17:09:42 AnMaster: the brits don't know how to do minority governments, they just panic >:) 17:10:09 "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate." 17:10:14 Judging from what I've seen, the Brits don't know how to do efficient government. 17:10:18 alise, hm, why use randomness really, what not a deterministic proportional system? 17:10:28 AnMaster: because "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate." 17:10:30 this is mathematical fact 17:10:31 Massive, lumbering monsters, however? They've got that down to an art. 17:10:35 alise, oh? 17:10:53 other desirable properties: no "major flips" due to a small number of votes 17:11:08 alise, so there is proof that there can not be any other system that allows that property? 17:11:10 also, it's the only system where every vote truly /does/ count 17:11:15 AnMaster: yes, though I don't know it 17:11:19 hm 17:11:24 but certainly no system anyone else has thought of has this property 17:11:36 the randomness /really/ doesn't matter, as O'Connor says, 17:11:40 "And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years." 17:11:51 so an extremely fringe party only gets a /single/ seat, and even then only once every 100 years, because of the randomness 17:12:02 so it's not really "unreliable" or "unpredictable" or "unsafe" in the slightest. 17:12:22 Of course, this is all theory; until the populace is more intelligent, people will read all this and still think "OMG DICE ROLL". 17:12:26 alise: People are heavily worried about the National Socialist Party getting all the seats. 17:12:35 ... For instance. 17:13:06 pikhq: Yes. And you realise that statistically, it's more likely that, say, giant pigs come down from the sky, tell us that they're manifestations of God, and elaborate unto us a mind-virus that causes us all to actually vote for the Nazis willingly? 17:13:22 You do; but People (who are, as a rule, a stupid collective) don't. 17:13:25 *I* am well aware of this. 17:13:37 The average person knows fuck-all about statistics. 17:13:56 pikhq, what about a modified variant that kept it within, say, 20% (fudge factor here, this number is a complete guesstimate) from the result you would have got from a proportional system? 17:14:08 pikhq: Precisely. 17:14:10 AnMaster: Pointless. 17:14:12 Utterly pointless. 17:14:18 alise, well sure, but it would calm people down 17:14:19 Randomness Does Not Work Like That. 17:14:24 -- and besides, it would just bring back injustice. 17:14:26 AnMaster: Might as well just use a proportional system. 17:14:31 Since it would make tactical voting WORK again. 17:14:35 Which is the whole bad point. 17:15:25 alise, pick the number so that the system still work (really improbable that tactical voting would affect anything) but still small enough that the 100% for BNP wouldn't happen 17:15:38 AnMaster: you're talking nonsense 17:15:41 it just won't work like that 17:15:44 alise, okay 17:15:47 because the results can be significantly different from /every/ other voting process 17:15:52 which is the whole point 17:16:33 alise, so how well does it reflect what people actually voted? If say, 50% voted for party A, will party A end up with roughly 50% of the seats? 17:16:54 Yes. 17:17:09 The definition is /really simple/: 17:17:12 "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat." 17:17:22 It's self-evident from the definition that 50% of votes ~> 50% of seats. 17:17:29 "riding"? 17:17:53 i take it it is roughly equivalent to picking a random voter for each seat, and taking their candidate 17:18:17 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:18:18 hm 17:18:26 or a candidate from their selected party 17:18:45 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:18:52 AnMaster: riding is like constituency, I think? 17:19:00 yeah 17:19:03 oh hm this is still with british ridings, right 17:19:04 electoral district/constituency 17:19:47 alise: iiuc, with ridings, it would have one major flaw: there would be no way to ensure the party leaders were elected 17:19:54 anyway I thought of a fair system, however you can only vote for parties, not for individual people. I can't see how tactical voting would work in that system. 17:19:56 which could surely cause problems 17:20:03 oerjan: hmm? I don't see how 17:20:17 AnMaster: Well, tell us the system then, so we can tell you its flaws. 17:20:54 alise: say if the conservatives want to be nearly sure cameron is elected. assuming no riding has > 90% conservative voters, they _cannot_ be sure he doesn't get thrown out 17:21:18 oerjan: hmm 17:21:27 I'm not sure I fully understand, but - isn't it a /good thing/ to stop parties running on cults of personality? 17:21:32 We are not MEANT to have a Presidential system! 17:21:42 alise: well i guess _some_ might consider it a good thing 17:21:45 it's pollution in our political climate, this focus on the leaders 17:21:55 oerjan: you mean like everyone in UK systems until recently? 17:22:12 alise, well you vote for the party you want, that is all there is to the voting, no "preferred candidate" or such. Then the votes are counted across the entire country (no "one winner per sector" or such stupid things like the US have), then each party get a proportional number of seats based on the result. Using round to nearest if a seat would end up with 58% of one party and the rest from another. 17:22:17 -!- MizardX- has joined. 17:22:27 alise, I can't see the flaw in this rather simple system. There might be one 17:22:32 alise: if you say so, i don't know that much about UK pol. history 17:23:02 AnMaster: you would ideally like party P1 to be elected, but P1 does not get many votes usually. there are two main parties, P2 and P3; P2 is abhorrent, P3 is too but slightly less so. you really want to keep P2 out, even though P1 is your favourite, so you vote for P3. 17:23:08 That is what tactical voting means. 17:23:40 alise, how would that work, if I cast the vote for P1 instead it wouldn't be to advantage for P2, would it? 17:23:49 yes it would 17:23:52 hm? 17:24:01 imagine P2=50, P3=50 apart from your vote 17:24:04 and P1=1 17:24:09 cast vote for P1, 17:24:09 AnMaster: i believe israel uses a system close to that 17:24:10 ah okay I see 17:24:13 P1=2, P2=50, P3=50 17:24:16 cast vote for P3, 17:24:21 P1=1, P2=50, P3=51 17:24:36 voting for P3 is better if you really don't want P2 to get in 17:24:36 alise, so new idea instead of round to nearest: time share on that seat based on the votes for it XD 17:24:37 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:24:42 AnMaster: wat XD 17:25:15 `translate gidd det da 17:25:18 bother it when 17:25:20 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:25:32 alise, say, you get one seat that would be 60% party A, 40% party B. with round to nearest it would go to party A, but with time share it would be party A 60% of the time, and party B 40% of the time 17:26:03 `translate Au au vondt vondt, det svir så utrolig lenge. 17:26:05 Au au pain hurts, it stings so incredibly long. 17:26:15 AnMaster: i think one could do stochastic voting in a proportional system as well, would also solve the leader problem i mentioned (assuming one thinks it is a problem) 17:26:19 alise, perhaps it should adjust for when the votes in the parliament are held, so make it 60%/40% of the votes cast instead 17:26:35 I think I would just have a 60% chance of giving it to party A and a 40% chance of giving it to party B. 17:27:16 oerjan, when was the leader problem mentioned? 17:27:38 oh there 17:27:39 right 17:27:48 oerjan, I don't see how that is a problem 17:28:07 and yes, doing it per sector is completely stupid for *any* system 17:28:10 really 17:28:14 AnMaster: parties might consider it a problem if their "top people" don't get into parliament 17:28:23 -!- MizardX- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:28:25 oerjan, hm okay 17:28:44 although Venstre managed so last year in norway 17:28:51 oerjan never said doing it per sector is stupid 17:29:10 http://pastie.org/951548.txt?key=fim9ynr9xvnvulb6inula ;; Move over, ML, I've just invented a ridiculously abstract meta-language. 17:29:27 alise, well this stochastic system wouldn't use ridings/sectors right? 17:29:32 alise: it was implied by my leader quibble, really 17:29:39 "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat." 17:29:45 Perhaps you should read every word of that sentence. 17:29:51 ah 17:30:09 The problem with not-per-ridings is 17:30:16 per-ridings means that in a stochastic system 17:30:26 everybody gets a number of seats ~= the portion of the popular vote 17:30:27 That is 17:30:32 they get POWER PROPORTIONAL to their votes 17:30:35 this happened to Venstre because when a norwegian party gets sufficiently small, their outcome essentially _does_ dissolve into separate ridings 17:30:41 if you don't have ridings and just have one-party-rules-with-all-their-might, 17:30:50 then it's useless 17:30:53 because one wins and the rest don't 17:30:58 AnMaster: if you mean 17:31:02 do it without ridings but still have seats 17:31:02 (no smoothing out candidates for < 4% votes nationally) 17:31:05 then what do the seats correspond to? 17:31:10 how many should there be? Why? 17:31:11 alise, ridings are a bad idea because if you live in an area where, say, 90% of the people prefer party A but you prefer party B, and over the whole country there are many areas with that distribution that means party B will be underrepresented. 17:31:17 basically this system eliminates the MEANING of constitutencies 17:31:22 but keeps them just to give an arbitrary total 17:31:39 AnMaster: oh, that is not how the stochastic system works 17:31:47 not sure how to explain BUT I'M SURE OERJAN CAN 17:32:19 uorygl: "gidd det da" sounds strange, but means roughly "bother with it then" 17:32:22 alise, isn't that what ridings mean though? 17:32:31 I do not think so. 17:32:45 AnMaster: Let's say it's 51% for 1 party, 49% for another party in *most* areas. About 51% of the seats will go to one party, and 49% to the other. 17:32:59 I know the US election system has the issue I mentioned. 17:33:08 the us election system does not use ridings 17:33:11 Change the percentages, and it still works like that. 17:33:12 oerjan: well, it's in response to "Brannsår! :d digg!", if that helps. 17:33:25 uorygl: also "vondt vondt" is more like an outburst, like "ooh the pain" 17:33:29 pikhq, hm? 17:33:45 pikhq, do you mean that pikhq the distribution is calculated across the whole country? 17:33:54 AnMaster: If 90% of the people nation-wide prefer a party, about 90% of the seats will go to them. 17:34:00 This is just how the odds work out. 17:34:17 I wonder what the "digg!" is all about there. 17:35:06 pikhq, right, as long as it doesn't end up like in US where that property does not hold true I'm okay with it 17:35:19 (ugh that needed some commas) 17:35:31 AnMaster: Yes, don't worry, it holds in a stochastic riding system. 17:35:46 (presuming that you have some relation between population of a subdivision and that subdivision's representation. The Senate on this system would be *royally* fucked up still.) 17:35:50 alise, what about the current UK system, it has that problem too doesn't it? 17:36:17 current UK and Canada system 17:36:26 let's call it the Westminster system for clarity 17:36:31 I'm not sure it does 17:36:36 well, yes 17:36:40 it's not proportional in any way 17:36:42 so you are right 17:36:44 uorygl: digg is essentially an english borrowing 17:36:45 pikhq, ah yes, each area need to have equal number of people in it if they have equal weight 17:36:45 stochastic elections are though 17:37:08 "dig it" 17:37:12 What does it mean in English? :P 17:37:44 uorygl: to like something? 17:37:44 perhaps it is now outdated slang in English 17:37:48 could be 17:37:52 As it is, in the US it is *perfectly* possible to have 5 people electing their own senator. 17:37:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 17:38:08 oerjan, that term exists in Swedish too, I would never use it though 17:38:20 but i sort of thought digg was named after it, although it _could_ be about digging up stuff, i guess 17:38:20 It is moderately outdated slang in English, yes. 17:38:30 (the website) 17:38:37 Digg is probably named after it. 17:38:46 sounds outdated in Swedish too 17:38:46 yeah digg is named after dig it YOOOO 17:38:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:40:03 AnMaster: as i see it the whole point of a stochastic system would be to allow national representation to be approximately based on total votes _despite_ having separate ridings 17:41:32 AnMaster: i quite expect that the path of borrowing went english -> swedish -> norwegian 17:42:43 oerjan, oh? heh 17:43:04 oerjan, and why would you want to have separate ridings? 17:43:07 AnMaster: i believe quite a lot of last century norwegian slang came via swedish 17:43:10 I fail to see the point of it 17:43:28 AnMaster: very _local_ representation, you get to elect someone from your local district 17:43:45 Is there any way for a web page to communicate with its iframes? 17:44:34 at least that's the thing i lately keep seeing as one major _advantage_ of the british system (that and the usual "some party has absolute majority and can govern efficiently") 17:44:42 *keep reading about 17:45:03 oerjan, hm okay, what about the Swedish election system then? iirc it rather complicated, something like proportional per party across the whole country, then to select the actual persons to fill those places it is based on where a party got most votes or some such 17:45:45 AnMaster: i guess that's similar to the norwegian one. in which case it is _somewhat_ local, but only on a county (län/fylke) basis? 17:46:10 oerjan, I don't remember which size of the district is used 17:47:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden says "Seats in the various legislative bodies are allocated amongst the Swedish political parties proportionally using a modified form of the Sainte-Laguë method. This modification creates a systematic preference in the mathematics behind seat distribution, favoring larger parties over smaller parties which might otherwise win only a single seat. At the core of it, the system remains intensely 17:47:39 proportional, and thus a party which wins approximately 25% of the vote should win approximately 25% of the seats." 17:47:53 not perfect indeed 17:48:21 AnMaster: in norway basically _most_ representatives are elected "directly" from counties (with more than one per county though), and then the national representation is smoothed out with one extra seat per county 17:48:45 oerjan, it could be that, I'm not completely sure 17:49:42 oh and: "The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list. For instance, in national parliamentary elections, any candidates who receive a number of personal votes equal to ei 17:49:43 ght percent or greater of the party's total amount of votes will automatically be bumped to the top of the list, regardless of their ranking on the list by the party. This threshold is only five percent for local elections and elections to the European Parliament." 17:49:50 which is rather complicated 17:49:53 iirc it was increased to one extra seat per county because the lower number frequently meant extra votes to a party were frequently allocated to a district where they _didn't_ have significant votes. this may still be a problem, i don't know. 17:51:05 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:51:20 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:51:58 we have (had?) those preference vote things too, i think they almost never matter 17:52:43 but then i don't even know the names of most local candidates so why would i bump any... 17:53:20 it may be only for local elections nowadays 17:53:38 oerjan, I remember reading about some parties list being overturned by it in Sweden 17:53:48 think it was in the last EU election 17:53:55 hmm 17:54:14 someone from 8th place being bumped to first or second or such 17:54:21 using zeta function regularisation, ∑(n=1, ∞) n^2 = 0, but ∑(n=1, ∞) n = −1/12 17:54:26 which makes me wonder: wut. 17:54:36 oerjan, even funnier, iirc we used to have "do not prefer" instead of "prefer" ages ago 17:54:55 heh 17:54:56 you could iirc check two you wanted to move down the list or some such 17:55:15 AnMaster: i vaguely recall something like that in norway 17:55:26 oerjan, stop copying us ;P 17:55:51 i vaguely suspect they removed that because it actually _had_ an effect, on people the parties didn't want it to affect 17:56:00 ah 17:56:07 AnMaster: but we're so good at it :D 17:56:11 on *parties the *people 17:56:13 not the other way around :D 17:56:38 alise, err? 17:56:42 alise: definitely the way i said it 17:56:53 yeah it doesn't make much sense reversed 17:57:11 AnMaster: what do you mean err? 17:57:18 oerjan: ah :D 17:57:20 oerjan: you sly man 17:57:25 alise, what? 17:57:30 how is he sly 17:57:39 he's being snarky. 17:57:59 alise, no he just said your correction was incorrect. 17:58:07 even i get the occasional snark you know 17:58:09 but snarky, no 17:58:21 i think it counts as snark 17:58:42 oerjan, btw shouldn't down vote be a better system then? If it does have an effect. After all the elections should represent what people actually want 17:59:17 AnMaster: no because he was making a statement about party control duh 17:59:27 but then it could allow some interesting tactical voting. Say, you prefer party A, but you definitely do not want the name from the top of the list in party B to get a seat. Thus you vote on party B but down-vote the first name on the list 17:59:39 AnMaster: no the thing is upvoting only shifts some unimportant people up, and important people a _little_ down. while downvoting can shift _important_ people out. from the view of the party leadership. 18:00:23 actually i vaguely recall for a while the parties could put some people _twice_ on the lists to counteract this. 18:00:29 oerjan, yes quite, but the voters should be allowed to get the people they prefer in IMO, and not the ones which happens to run the party. 18:00:30 or whatever 18:00:49 oerjan, heh, that's quite an insane solution 18:00:59 heh 18:01:03 basically zeta regularisation is stating that 18:01:05 −1/12 + −2/12 + −3/12 + −4/12 + ⋯ = 0 18:01:12 or, wait, is it 18:01:13 no 18:03:30 alise, what does M.P. mean in English (context is voting system) 18:03:55 Member of Parliament 18:03:58 ah 18:04:06 AnMaster: oh and another problem is that since _most_ people don't amend the voting lists, a tiny minority could mess up for candidates even if most people thought they were just fine. in theory even people sabotaging for _other_ parties... 18:04:17 "Military police" can also be a relevant word in the context of voting systems... 18:04:24 (with downvoting, especially) 18:04:53 oerjan, okay that is indeed a valid concern. 18:04:59 (unlike the one you first mentioned) 18:05:08 fizzie, XD 18:05:43 AnMaster: actually i see you mentioned the last point above 18:06:24 * oerjan writes too slowly to read everything else before he hits return 18:06:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:07:35 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 18:07:53 oerjan, ? 18:07:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 18:07:58 fizzie: not in voting systems of countries we like to compare ourselves to ("land vi liker å sammenligne oss med", common norwegian political phrase) 18:08:13 oerjan, oh that about voting for another party just to move someone down? 18:08:19 AnMaster: yeah 18:08:34 oerjan, it is rather a special-case of what you said 18:08:49 -!- MizardX- has joined. 18:08:49 -!- MizardX- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:09:00 oerjan, btw, why don't you read while you are writing? 18:09:06 can't you touch type? ;P 18:09:11 -!- MizardX- has joined. 18:09:39 hm i don't have to watch the keys but i _do_ watch what i type 18:10:15 i have to keep my spelling errors down _somehow_, you know 18:10:26 well okay, I need to glace at what I'm writing every few words 18:10:32 but not more than that 18:11:01 also my touch typing is not as perfect as it once was (dammit now i'm thinking about it it gets even harder. btw you are now breathing manually.) 18:11:07 you just need an irc client that puts new messages really close to where you're typing 18:11:16 oerjan, also, another thing, when you type can you see your hands moving on the keyboard? As in, not that you are looking at it, but seeing it in the "edge" of your vision? 18:11:50 (I used to need that, so typing in the dark didn't work.) 18:11:54 Mathnerd314: oh it does. i just don't have that much concentration. or maybe i have too much, whatever. 18:12:04 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:12:09 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 18:12:12 AnMaster: yes. 18:12:16 (I can do that nowdays, except moving my hand back to the keyboard from the mouse) 18:12:33 oerjan, do you need to see that to be able to type? 18:13:20 let me try to avoid it - ok i had troubles with the 'v', there 18:13:56 * Mathnerd314 notices the new topic 18:14:12 basically _most_ keys are automatic but not all, and my finger positioning is not stable enough 18:14:15 oerjan, how did you avoid it? By placing something above the keyboard to hide it or such? 18:14:59 AnMaster: by looking a bit further up than usual. so i didn't really look at the text either, i guess. 18:15:11 basically i'm way out of training. 18:16:12 oerjan, ah, and I would have to look way above the screen to do that. Best experiment is when it is dark. Oh and mostly black screen to reduce light from it. I suppose covering the keyboard would work too, but it might be tricky to find something suitable for that 18:16:41 * oerjan is now typing with eyes closed 18:16:48 well, okay that worked well 18:16:48 yes! :-) 18:16:49 wow not a single error :) 18:17:18 oerjan, but again that doesn't really test "not seeing hands", it tests "not seeing hands, nor screen" 18:17:18 I can type with my eyes closed too, though I imagine my error rate will be quite high; actually it feels very uncomfortable. 18:17:23 Hm 18:17:24 although i had to look for the first / 18:17:25 Darn; s/ +/ / 18:17:28 oerjan: next, change the keyboard layout and start over 18:17:31 * FireFly also test writing with closed eyes 18:17:36 tests* 18:17:47 AnMaster: so basically what i'm out of with touch typing is _confidence_ 18:18:03 well I can type with eyes closed too, but it is slomewhat slower, and more errors 18:18:09 heh, slomewhat XD 18:18:56 alise, also was that a sed expression? 18:18:58 Mathnerd314: no thanks 18:19:06 AnMaster: no, just a random IRC excpression 18:19:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:19:28 alise, ah good, because if it was sed you know that + is not "one or more" in sed. it is a literal + 18:19:40 it would have needed /g, too. 18:20:01 _clearly_ it was perl s/// 18:20:02 alise, I only saw one double-space? 18:20:27 As we all know, IRC has its own regular expression and replacement syntax. 18:20:36 AnMaster: x matches x+ 18:20:40 duh 18:20:45 pikhq: based on a dwim parser, presumably 18:20:48 since x+ = xx* 18:20:52 oerjan: Why yes. 18:20:53 and {} in x* 18:20:59 alise, yes I know 18:21:01 It is a DWIM-family language. 18:21:09 AnMaster: and spaces came before the " " 18:21:12 so I did need /g. 18:21:14 hm 18:21:24 "be a dwit, use dwim" 18:21:45 yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/x/{DWIM} 18:21:55 pikhq, which is basically a mix of the most common constructs from the most common dialects 18:22:00 where \{DWIM} determines an appropriate pattern, and the flag {DWIM} determines appropriate flags. 18:22:07 actually it's 18:22:15 yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/\{DWIMeval(x)}/{DWIM} 18:22:18 because x can contain shorthand and such 18:22:18 pikhq, for example I doubt negative lookbehind is very common in it 18:22:21 pikhq: now that alise is back, the title is incorrect? 18:22:37 Mathnerd314, no it isn't? 18:22:43 Were you guys panicing? Aww, how cute. 18:23:07 panicing? why? 18:23:29 Mathnerd314, it says "alise-alert" which is completely accurate, he is here, there is thus a red alert ;P 18:23:31 * AnMaster ducks 18:23:55 -!- pikhq has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:24:13 * oerjan gives up on actually reading the logs today 18:24:16 pikhq, which script is that? 18:24:21 oerjan, why? 18:24:30 pineapple: ??? 18:24:35 pineapple: ... Sorry. 18:24:43 AnMaster: Japanese. 18:24:46 ah 18:24:46 because i've been on here for hours with them in another window, and haven't got beyond the first screen :) 18:24:47 AnMaster: Which means it's 3 different scripts. 18:25:02 also, they are really long 18:25:26 pikhq, where was that bit you replied to pineapple? As in, as far as I can tell pikhq haven't said anything for as many screens up as I checked (4) 18:25:42 err 18:25:46 pineapple: ... Sorry. 18:25:49 Mishighlight. 18:25:49 s/pikhq/pineapple/ 18:25:50 duh 18:25:58 ah 18:26:00 alise, I see 18:26:01 AnMaster: I had a massive thinko. 18:26:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:26:15 I mean, *damn*. 18:26:19 pikhq, you tried to highlight yourself or something? 18:26:22 I was trying to highlight myself. 18:26:42 pikhq, and why? 18:26:42 I'm going to drink more coffee. 18:26:49 I don't recall. 18:27:03 pikhq, you already forgot why coffee? ;P 18:27:20 Oh, that. 18:27:21 (sorry, that wasn't fair, it was actually same second for both on this side) 18:27:24 I LIKE THE COFFEE 18:27:40 (and mine was just before yours, but I realised it could be unclear on the other end) 18:27:45 ;P 18:27:54 pikhq, but yeah I meant why self-highlight 18:28:02 AnMaster: I haven't a clue. 18:28:06 ah 18:28:10 SED, MI SXATAS LA KAFON. 18:28:59 デモ、 ボク ガ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。 18:29:38 ... boku ga kohii ga? That's... Wrong. 18:30:01 デモ、 ボク ハ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。 18:30:04 That's better. 18:38:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has set topic: ‮I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | ‭http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:39:12 yay for unicode override characters ;-) 18:42:09 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Josiah Dammit, why has my name become popular? :P 18:43:55 end of the world in 2012, probably 18:44:09 rather biblical name :p 18:44:32 Yes, King Josiah was indeed in the Bible. 18:46:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:46:39 My life feels empty and without meaning. Any suggestions on interesting things to do? 18:47:01 curses, you just made me feel the same way 18:47:05 Maybe I'll just pirate Mathematica after all... 18:47:23 no, don't do that 18:47:37 I have a spare copy which I (probably?) could send you 18:47:39 alise told me to! 18:47:48 Mathnerd314: err 18:47:51 that's just as illegal 18:48:10 It depends. 18:48:15 no, it does not. 18:48:31 Surely giving a copy you bought is legal? 18:48:42 lol lol lol 18:48:44 welcome to copyright law 18:49:00 Phantom_Hoover: no it is not of course 18:49:02 that is piracy 18:49:07 alise, well, you could give away your own copy couldn't you? Assuming you didn't keep it as well 18:49:12 AnMaster: no. 18:49:15 sharing copyrighted software is illegal. End of. 18:49:25 this is the very basis of copyrigth law. 18:49:33 But it's not sharing; you no longer have it. 18:49:40 Phantom_Hoover, indeed 18:49:56 you are really naive 18:50:02 well, it's an unactivated copy 18:50:05 ok, let me be more formal 18:50:15 alise, so does this apply to art too? 18:50:20 AnMaster: yes. 18:50:40 alise, so you cant sell paintings on your walls? 18:50:40 And if he has a CD with Mathematica on it, which he hasn't installed, it is illegal for him to give it to me? 18:50:41 Providing anyone with a copy of copyrighted material without the express permission of the copyright holder or someone authorised to give permission on their behalf, is illegal. 18:50:45 if you no longer want them? 18:50:53 AnMaster: that isn't how physical property works 18:50:59 alise, well that is what you saifd 18:51:02 said* 18:51:03 it is not 18:51:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:51:07 I am talking about abstract entities only. 18:51:15 alise, if you no longer have a copy it is the same as selling a painting 18:51:22 if you kept it as well, that would be different 18:51:44 Digital information does not work that way and when you get fucked for copyright infringement don't come whining to me 18:51:51 Yes copyright law makes no fucking sense 18:51:52 alise, so what about cds with game on them 18:51:53 Deal with it. 18:52:00 selling that cd would be legal or not? 18:52:14 assuming you bought that cd before 18:52:17 AnMaster: Physical. 18:52:30 -!- augur has joined. 18:52:34 It's not surprising that AnMaster is being an idiot but I didn't expect others to be so naive. 18:52:39 alise, this makes no sense, if you erase your copy you no longer have it 18:52:54 Mathnerd314: Have you got it in physical form? 18:52:54 YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COPYRIGHT LAW. 18:53:03 alise, it makes NO SENSE 18:53:08 Phantom_Hoover: no 18:53:09 AnMaster: Of course it fucking doesn't 18:53:12 ... 18:53:16 It's applying artificial scarcity to unscarce bits 18:53:20 THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE 18:53:22 alise, are you sure you didn't just misunderstand it? 18:53:22 -!- MizardX has joined. 18:53:25 and that is WHY copyright law is PATHOLOGICAL 18:53:28 because this is too absurd 18:53:30 AnMaster: I am 100% certain that I am right. 18:53:36 mhm 18:54:36 alise: Indeed. You have already started asserting your superiority over all who are sceptical of your point. 18:54:52 because this is basic copyright law 18:58:41 AnMaster: The whole *point* of copyright is to make some non-scarce things more scarce. 18:59:00 hm 18:59:07 It's true. 18:59:41 ok - I have a wolfram (student) download/license, unactivated, unused, etc. 18:59:41 It's obviously illegal to start selling photocopies of Harry Potter. 19:00:00 The debate is over what you can do with your own copy. 19:00:08 alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program. 19:00:13 First sale doctrine. 19:00:24 pikhq: Mm, but copyright law muddles that immensely. 19:00:31 "Your copy" almost entirely loses meaning. 19:00:43 Which one of your copies? The one in memory, on disk? What Colour does it have? What? Who? Where-- 19:01:20 alise: First sale doctrine has been stated to override copyright law. You must not *retain* copies of the item, but you are still free to give it to someone else 19:01:34 This is completely asinine, yes, but that's beside the point. 19:01:48 Huh. ...Surely this has to be US-only. 19:01:53 The UK isn't /that/ crazy... 19:01:57 At least its insanity is consistent, surely. 19:02:17 OK, what does UK law state? 19:02:19 This was ruled by a court, rather than being written in law. 19:02:42 Phantom_Hoover: Regardless, it is UNACTIVATED. 19:02:48 That is, you would have to use a key generator to use it anyway. 19:02:49 Which is illegal. 19:02:58 (as the only way for first-sale doctrine as commonly known and copyright law as written to interact without one or the other being denied.) 19:03:00 So honestly... just pirate it. 19:03:30 Wait, so Mathnerd doesn't have the means to activate it himself? 19:05:21 it goes something like website->download->enter code->activate 19:05:37 And you would have the activation codes? 19:06:32 oh, I have to register it after I download it 19:06:37 so yeah 19:07:56 Right, so alise is wrong about the key generator? 19:08:10 ehm 19:08:15 using the student version isn't legal if you're not a student 19:08:19 i thought at least /that/ would be obvious 19:08:22 or rather 19:08:25 obtaining the license key 19:08:31 How do we define "student"? 19:08:37 X_X 19:08:38 I certainly stud 19:08:41 y 19:08:43 read the fucking wolfram site, I don't know how they define it 19:08:49 if you DO meet the criteria you can get it legally yourself anyway 19:09:47 Phantom_Hoover: "Available to those working toward a high school, associate's, bachelor's, master's, doctoral, or equivalent degree" 19:10:20 ...so if you are doing that... 19:10:23 Just get a damn student license! 19:10:26 If you're not... it's illegal! 19:11:16 And if you don't care... Might as well pirate! Arrrr! 19:11:43 ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 19:11:51 I now understand the logistics of pirating :p 19:11:51 ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. 19:14:28 ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 19:14:31 * alise rapes and pillages 19:15:24 -!- coppro has joined. 19:15:27 * Phantom_Hoover has come out of this even less certain of things than he was before. 19:16:18 All I know is that copyright law is even stupider than I thought it was. 19:17:28 alise: who exactly are you raping and pillaging? it seems hard to do over the internet :p 19:17:47 It's like the Freenode network topology. 19:17:54 You *don't* want to know. 19:20:40 Mathnerd314: you don't want to know. 19:21:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:21:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 19:22:05 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:22:48 explain why I wouldn't want to know 19:23:49 You *don't* want to now why you *don't* want to know. 19:32:07 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 19:32:37 Yay, alise is here! 19:34:06 alise, Phantom_Hoover: suppose I did in fact know, because I convinced you to tell me. what arguments would my future self give my current self for why I wouldn't want to know what my future self knew? 19:34:17 Mathnerd314: stop trying to sound clever 19:34:19 :P 19:34:36 and the answer, little man, is that you *don't* want to know the reasons 19:35:20 I sincerely doubt my future self would say that 19:35:30 Of course. 19:35:38 You don't know the truth. 19:36:24 If you did, you would beg your past self not to find out. 19:36:24 Mathnerd314: that is only because you are in denial. 19:36:41 It is don't-want-to-knows all the way down, Mathnerd314. 19:36:50 What did I miss? This sounds interesting. 19:37:03 You *don't* want to know. 19:37:15 Yes :D 19:37:41 SgeoN1: (it's just fluff) 19:38:07 Phantom_Hoover: but *how* would I beg my past self? what arguments would I use? 19:38:49 You *don't* want to know. 19:38:50 You would be incapable of telling your past self, out of compassion. 19:40:32 well, in similar situations, I've heard similar things, and know that I would be able to tell my past self something more substantial than that I am incapable of telling my past self anything 19:40:57 That's what you *think*. 19:41:09 It's what I *know* 19:41:10 You *don't* want to know why you're wrong. 19:41:22 Mathnerd314: those things were not the Infinite Tower of Despair. 19:41:29 Only the Infinite Tower of Despair satisfies this infinite chain. 19:41:39 You don't want to know. All you could say: You don't want to konw. 19:41:44 The truth: You don't want to know. 19:42:34 context? 19:42:46 You *don't* want to know. 19:42:52 read the logs 19:43:17 You could, but you *don't* want to know what's in them. 19:43:18 how far back? i can't tell the signal to noise ratio 19:43:57 Suffice to say that you neither want to know the Freenode network topology nor who alise is raping. 19:44:03 And pillaging! 19:44:11 And being generally ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR towards. 19:44:18 He *didn't* want to know that. 19:44:19 pineapple: this is /all/ noise... 19:44:43 But perhaps there is signal in it that you *don't* want to know/ 19:45:18 The signal is hidden in the timestamps. 19:45:35 Phantom_Hoover: stop with the wanting already. I know what I want at this current moment, and I want to know 19:45:47 gah; internet is out 19:45:58 But once I tell you, you *won't* want to have known. 19:46:43 Phantom_Hoover: so... how does my future self convince me? 19:47:03 He would beg if he could. 19:47:28 so he says, "I beg you... don't want to know!" 19:47:53 In theory. 19:48:06 However, he would also be unable to speak. 19:49:04 really unconvincing 19:49:12 Of course. 19:49:28 since you can talk and presumably know 19:49:30 To be convincing, I would have to tell you things that you *don't* want to know. 19:49:53 And you *don't* want to know what happened to me. 19:49:59 -!- alise_ has joined. 19:50:13 -!- alise_ has quit (Client Quit). 19:50:43 the symptoms cannot be worse than the disease... 19:51:04 That is how bad the disease is. 19:51:21 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:51:37 -!- alise_ has joined. 19:51:43 yess it works 19:51:48 I get 6.8 mbit/s, woo 19:51:55 now lose the beard? 19:53:22 alise_: So will you be pirating Mathematica now? 19:53:26 oh yes. 19:53:31 ? 19:53:42 You *don't* want to know. 19:53:44 i was on 3g stick before 19:53:45 = slow 19:53:49 and 15/gb 19:54:04 So you would have been as well buying it. 19:54:43 813.4 KiB/s 19:54:52 man this is the best connection i've ever had 19:54:53 Phantom_Hoover: not quite :P 19:55:23 Phantom_Hoover: so can I get physically harmed by knowing? 19:55:40 You *don't* want to know. 19:56:30 alise_: this scythe fan is terrible 19:56:37 Phantom_Hoover: it's a yes or no question, with a very small amount of damage either way 19:56:51 Phantom_Hoover: you *don't* want to know what i'm going to do to you with a cucumber if you don't stop saying that... 19:56:52 alise_: the yate loons are far better 19:57:08 bsmntbombdood: ok 19:57:19 Mathnerd314: The answer is neither yes nor no. 19:57:55 ok, so it's completely illogical. 19:58:06 Of course. 19:59:42 so therefore, as a logical being, I am immune to it. 20:00:40 If you really think you're a logical being, you've got something wrong. 20:00:46 I'm being serious. 20:01:01 Unless you're a *very* sophisticated bot. 20:01:43 well, I've been reading a lot of http://www.lesswrong.com/. So I should be pretty logical by now 20:02:10 Reading Less Wrong does not automagically make you logical. 20:02:38 well, I *feel* logical 20:02:55 Mathnerd314: Hah, I knew you were reading Less Wrong. 20:03:01 though of course there's no logical way to *prove* I'm logical 20:03:06 But you *aren't*. Humans are innately illogical. 20:03:14 Smart people there. Very smart. Effect on most people: verbose meanderings that just show someone trying to seem logical. 20:03:16 Phantom_Hoover: false. 20:03:25 Hm? 20:03:58 false, as in, what you said is false. 20:04:08 yeah, not every human is insane 20:04:09 humans are not ""innately"" illogical, we just have several built-in biases that make being logical more work. 20:04:29 I would define that as innate. 20:04:41 Mathnerd314: can I just recommend that you avoid talking authoritatively about rationality until you've developed it a bit more and got over the initial lesswrong rush? 20:04:46 Phantom_Hoover: but it is still possible to be logical. 20:04:58 Yes. But we aren't logical beings. 20:07:19 I strongly doubt that LessWrongers never act illogically. 20:08:30 of course 20:08:35 omg. mathematica is downloaded /already/ 20:08:39 this is like sex on wheels 20:09:20 I would ask what on earth you meant, but I know what you'd say. 20:10:45 my connection 20:10:49 apparently it has something to do with cars 20:10:52 it is like sex, moved by a contraption of wheels 20:12:09 * alise_ installs 20:13:29 Now installing... 20:13:29 [ ] 20:13:32 Strange that nothing happens. 20:13:45 Did you just Google it and find a torrent? 20:15:44 Ah, now it is going. 20:17:45 Phantom_Hoover: I just used torrentz.com, lazy as I am, and found http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4566766/WOLFRAM.RESEARCH.MATHEMATICA.V7.0.LINUX-EDGEISO 20:17:50 which includes a keygen that works with wine 20:18:23 And when The Government come to murder you in your sleep? 20:19:10 well, wolfram hasn't started litigation yet 20:19:21 *Yet.* 20:20:53 and it's pretty hard to sue someone who's not actively downloading 20:21:07 Huh; the GUI is rendering in Windows-y colours. 20:21:43 yeah; the linux port is not that good, I hear 20:22:55 It isn't. 20:22:58 Linux ports are *never* that good. 20:22:59 But it isn't as laggy as last time, at least. 20:25:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:26:10 You made me look, so; the upgrade from the student Mathematica to the retail Mathematica has a 75 % discount, which is not too shabby. 20:26:33 Of course the retail price *is* 3185 EUR, so it's still not exactly cheap. 20:26:49 (Or 3980 EUR for the Solaris version.) 20:26:56 WtH are you paying for?? 20:27:26 I.E. Why is it so highly priced? 20:27:40 Sentience, I guess. 20:27:42 Phantom_Hoover: Wolfram's ego. 20:27:53 I don't know many people who have bought that; though I know of two that have bought the student license, which I think was something like 70 EUR. 20:28:20 Is there a *difference* between the student version and the standard one? 20:28:41 3115 EUR. 20:29:07 Uh, actually they seem to have bumped the student price up to 150 eur for Mathematica 7.0. (I last looked at it for 6.) 20:29:27 But it's still >3keur difference. 20:29:53 There's no functional difference. But you must stop using it when you graduate. 20:30:05 This is insanity. 20:30:36 Hm, 128 EUR if you get the download version directly from Wolfram. 150 eur was our university's list price, but I think that includes a nifty installation disc. 20:30:56 Wolfram Research must have found out about the thing that you *don't* want to know. 20:31:28 Maybe I should go into the den, where I have a working computer. 20:31:57 Rather than just using my phone in my room 20:32:56 Hm, what's the student price for Flash. If it's free, I just might get it. 20:33:01 It would be interesting to know their license revenues, though of course they won't tell you that. 20:33:50 I think Adobe's general student discount is about 80% off the retail price. 20:33:59 You could just use Flex or something, though. 20:34:40 "Save up to 80% off the full retail price* with Adobe Student and Teacher Editions — full commercial versions at low prices for students and now teachers, too." 20:34:42 "* Prices are subject to change without notice and are for qualified education customers only. Reseller prices may vary." 20:39:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:39:46 -!- pgimeno has left (?). 20:40:30 This is the default privmsg message. 20:40:36 -!- cal153 has joined. 20:42:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:49:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:53:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:53:28 * SgeoN1 heres some music that he associates with a game that he now knows to be a Bejeweled clone 20:57:42 `translate leer 20:57:44 read 20:59:55 Phantom_Hoover: also look at instructions.png (in diff. lang) in the keygen dir 20:59:58 and use wine for the keygen 21:02:04 Ah, nice desktop computer with a weaker processor than my phone 21:02:54 arguably, I'm falling into the clockspeed=better trap, but it is an old computer 21:06:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:15:35 In[16]:= Fibonacci'[n] 21:15:35 2 n 21:15:35 Out[16]= (GoldenRatio Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n Pi] Log[GoldenRatio] + 21:15:35 21:15:35 n 21:15:36 > Pi Sin[n Pi]) / (Sqrt[5] GoldenRatio ) 21:15:39 anyone know how to disable this wrapping? 21:16:12 Perhaps it would be best for a Mathematica bot to use InputForm: 21:16:16 In[2]:= InputForm[Fibonacci'[n]] 21:16:16 Out[2]//InputForm= 21:16:16 (GoldenRatio^(2*n)*Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n*Pi]*Log[GoldenRatio] + 21:16:16 Pi*Sin[n*Pi])/(Sqrt[5]*GoldenRatio^n) 21:16:58 TETRIS! 21:17:21 ...Yes? Tetris. 21:17:36 That's the MIDI playing on my phone right now, a Tetris midi 21:20:14 In[1]:= Limit[Fibonacci[n+1]/Fibonacci[n], n->Infinity] // InputForm 21:20:14 Limit::ztest1: Unable to decide whether numeric quantity 21:20:14 -Log[2] + 2 Log[1 + Sqrt[5]] - Log[3 + Sqrt[5]] 21:20:14 is equal to zero. Assuming it is. 21:20:14 Out[1]//InputForm= (1 + Sqrt[5])/2 21:20:19 Those error messages are way too verbose for IRC. 21:23:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:24:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:27:30 back in ~20mins 21:28:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:34 BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21:30:24 You know what isn't boring? 21:30:40 * Phantom_Hoover messages noog 21:30:41 a 21:40:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:49:07 If I put out a huge collection of unlabelled MIDI files, how many people would help label them? 22:03:02 -!- AndChat| has joined. 22:03:20 -!- AndChat| has quit (Client Quit). 22:03:26 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:04:28 `echo coi la uorygl 22:04:29 coi la uorygl 22:04:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 22:04:39 Darn, I did that wrong. 22:04:40 `echo coi la uorygl 22:04:41 coi la uorygl 22:04:46 There, much better. 22:04:47 `translate coi 22:04:48 considered 22:04:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:05:02 I don't think Google will do Lojban. 22:05:11 "coi" means "hello" and "la" means "that-which-is-named". 22:05:42 You know Lojban? 22:05:54 Some, yeah. 22:06:05 F My Connection 22:06:39 I chose this nick so that other people who know Lojban might know that I know Lojban. 22:06:50 Since it's a very Lojban name. 22:06:52 What does it mean? 22:07:00 Or is it just stylistic? 22:07:08 It's a transcription of the English word "warrigal". 22:07:43 I see that the Pirate Party has some opposition. In Finland, there has been started a Ninja Party. 22:09:03 Ah, Finland. 22:09:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819]). 22:16:48 alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program. <-- that was what I was talking about all the time -_- 22:19:25 back 22:21:04 Wow, it appears that over half of all Finns know English. 22:21:58 As do most Swedes. 22:22:14 Interesting. 22:22:14 -!- Oranjer has joined. 22:22:27 Oranjer! 22:22:32 hola? 22:22:35 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:22:44 Hola, Oranjer. ¿Cómo te va? 22:23:03 beats me, just a greeting 22:23:43 I see. 22:23:50 yep yep 22:24:08 `translate ¿Cómo te va? 22:24:10 How are you doing? 22:24:23 well, I could divine that 22:24:28 I'm doing great 22:24:38 Bueno. 22:24:39 va? 22:24:46 "Va" means "goes". 22:25:01 So, "How does it go for you?" 22:25:12 literally, yes 22:25:14 -!- augur has joined. 22:25:32 shhh, stop speaking linguistics, it's augur 22:25:43 This isn't linguistics. 22:26:11 Puedo hablar de linguistics si lo quiero. 22:26:24 it was about to be 22:27:04 Vamos a ver, parece que se llama "lingüística" en español. 22:27:12 How difficult to type. 22:27:59 lingüística 22:28:36 Aquí, tengo que teclear "l i n g opt-u u opt-e i s t i c a". 22:28:55 I have a compose key. 22:29:23 I guess my option key is pretty much the same as your compose key. 22:29:33 "l i n g compose-"-u compose-'-i s t i c a" 22:29:41 Except my option key makes slightly less sense. U is a diaeresis, E is an acute accent. 22:30:11 I need to enable a compose key 22:30:31 although, really, I already have to know two different ways to make characters 22:30:35 shift-altgr was what I had by default. 22:31:23 Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character. 22:32:16 `translate Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character. 22:32:18 But it's better than when my option key was a key goal and had to change my keyboard layout whenever I wanted to click a special character. 22:32:32 Close enough. 22:32:40 `translate tecla de meta 22:32:42 key goal 22:32:55 `translate meta de tecla 22:32:56 key goal 22:33:14 Why does it think "tecla de meta" is "key goal" and not "goal key"? 22:34:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:34:07 -!- augur has joined. 22:42:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:45:33 i hate spanish 22:45:42 it reminds me of high school 22:47:55 Hmm... okay, I'm looking for a new language for my Agora reports; can anyone offer suggestions? 22:49:06 I want something with good databasing powers, but isn't as obtuse as SQL 22:49:20 and neither do I want to use SQL as the storage layer and something else as the processing layer 23:01:14 coppro: hmm... 23:01:29 coppro: well, it doesn't need to be a database. it will fit fine into a regular structure 23:01:35 yes 23:01:42 you might want something LINQish though 23:01:44 nooga: Probably just because you ended up "learning" it in high school. 23:02:00 if I say Haskell you will probably maul me... 23:02:02 And, frankly, high school language classes tend to suck if you want to actually learn a language. 23:02:05 I hate Spanish. 23:02:17 it just makes me want to claw people's eyes out 23:02:18 alise_: I considered it, but that means I have to set up all the key associations manually 23:02:24 coppro: Eh? 23:02:26 No. 23:02:32 Just put the referenced object in directly. 23:02:37 Then have every object keep track of its number. 23:02:39 Easy. 23:02:46 exactly, I don't want to have to do that 23:02:48 Get out of the relational mindset. 23:02:51 coppro: What? 23:02:58 You have to specify what objects are contained in other objects... 23:03:00 it's effectively relational though 23:03:24 for instance, I can't store the player datastructure directly in the office datastructure 23:03:31 because multiple offices may share a player 23:03:50 I must store some identifying piece of information about that player (id or name) and then look that up in the set of players 23:04:02 alise_: do you have a particular reason for hating Spanish? 23:04:14 I'd like this to be done transparently, e.g. pointers 23:04:20 uorygl: everything said in Spanish sounds stupid 23:04:33 just as everything in Latin, profound 23:04:40 coppro: nopeee 23:04:47 coppro: you don't need one global reference to a player 23:04:48 Interesting. 23:04:55 alise_: huh? 23:04:57 How about stuff in Lojban, or Finnish? 23:04:59 what is wrong with having two identical "coppro" objects in two offices? 23:05:01 you don't need pointers 23:05:01 "quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur." 23:05:12 alise_: If one gets updated, the other isn't necessarily updated to match 23:05:14 pikhq: that's righ 23:05:16 t 23:05:44 coppro: Well, you have to specify what kind of update you mean. This is a functional language, after all. 23:05:52 uorygl: I haven't heard much/any spoken Finnish. 23:05:54 Nor much Lojban. 23:06:36 alise_: let's say I change my nickname 23:07:01 I have to make sure both offices' copies of my data are changed appropriately 23:07:12 coppro: Simple. 23:07:20 alise_: And everything written in Chinese on someone's flesh looks "cool". 23:07:26 alise_: code example? 23:07:53 Have a function "modifyPerson" that traverses all the offices etc. and does the transformation e.g. if nick=="x", replace with f(that person) in the returned structure 23:07:55 then you do 23:08:12 modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"}) 23:08:14 well 23:08:15 modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"}) game 23:08:19 and get the revised game state back 23:08:27 easy to think of things like changeNick as shorthands for these 23:08:34 hmm 23:08:35 Sure, it's slightly less computationally efficient... but who gives a fuck 23:08:35 okay 23:08:45 Even when it's something like "朝鮮民主主義人民和国!" (The Democratic People's Republic of Korea!) 23:08:57 I mean, it lets you use the expressivity and good data structure support of Haskell, and avoid pointers, which suck in Haskell. 23:08:58 How come having two copies of everything is better than having pointers or something? 23:08:58 any other suggestions from anyone present? 23:08:58 * pikhq wonders if anyone has ever gotten such a tattoo. 23:09:26 uorygl: because you can do something like "name . officeHolder" 23:09:30 instead of 23:09:35 "name . lookupPerson . officeHolder" 23:09:38 or whatever 23:09:38 Well, not necessarily two. 23:09:39 but! 23:09:42 if the person can mutate 23:09:45 it might even be in a gonad 23:09:49 and then it gets even uglier 23:10:52 * Sgeo wonders what gonads have to do with what appears to be Haskell 23:11:09 Apparently slang for monads. 23:11:15 uh 23:12:24 aaannywho 23:12:31 no one else has any suggestions? 23:12:33 so monad is like 23:12:49 uh, a function with side effects that is mathematicaly valid? 23:13:16 nooga: no. stop. 23:13:22 stop even trying. learn haskell first, then monads 23:13:35 do not attempt to come up with explanations of monads until you are sure that you have found one that is correct, because it is almost certainly incorrect 23:13:38 one cannot learn haskell without knowing monads 23:13:43 yes. one can. 23:13:46 and that is simple fact 23:13:47 Monads are... Things that go around data. 23:13:50 I think. 23:14:00 Phantom_Hoover: wrong again. 23:14:05 Bah! 23:14:15 I knew once! 23:14:28 A monad is a pair of functions. 23:14:51 A data type used to represent computations. 23:15:03 No, a monad is fmap, join and unit! 23:15:04 Well, in Haskell, a monad is a type constructor. 23:15:39 A monad.. I'm not going to say is, but say involves, ways to make data be part of the monad, and to combine a piece of monadized data with a function that returns monadized behavior 23:15:48 *data 23:15:48 lambda calculus is pretty straightforward 23:15:54 monads are not 23:16:44 In Haskell-style-category-theory, a monad is a pair of functions. One takes any value and returns a value in the monad's codomain. The other takes a function taking any value, and returns a function taking a value in the monad's codomain. 23:17:18 Haskell-style-category-theory is idiotic because it allows monads that are not functors. 23:17:20 For all a, a value of type "IO a" represents some I/O action that can be performed to yield a result of type a. 23:17:44 alise_, does anyone actually write such monads? 23:17:48 yes. 23:17:54 they are idiots 23:17:55 IO is a monad, so you can use the first function I mentioned to construct a "nop", and the second function I mentioned to string actions together. 23:18:09 Surely the functor stuff can be implemented in terms of monad functions? 23:18:24 Yes and no. 23:18:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]). 23:18:30 alise_, I think you have a knack for caring about things that don't matter and not caring about things that matter. 23:18:41 That's a nice opinion; I will disregard it. 23:18:48 But perhaps I'm overestimating how objective my opinions are. 23:18:48 (Is that not caring about something that matters, I wonder?) 23:18:57 Maybe it is. :P 23:19:02 -!- facsimile has joined. 23:19:11 Usually I care about absolute precision and accuracy, so, yeah... I fail at that a ton, though. 23:19:34 * Sgeo cares about fame much more than he cares about fortune 23:19:51 Sgeo: Then you are crazy. 23:19:55 Celebrity is hell. 23:20:15 Maybe more Torvalds-like fame rather than, say, celebrity-like fame 23:20:32 You have a tendency to assume your values are everyone's values. But then again, so does everyone. 23:21:10 Also, I think I'd rather have "Sgeo" be famous than "Seth ...." be famous 23:21:46 Although then I'd have to change some passwords probably.. some of them are a bit too guessable 23:21:58 uorygl: No, I usually just blatantly disregard everyone else's values because they're wrong. 23:22:21 Some time ago, I guess, I decided to not bother my thinking with those unneccessary steps where I consider what other people think about whatever I'm thinking about. 23:22:31 You're so cute. :P 23:22:39 Why yes, yes I am. 23:22:47 I think I'd rathest be known by only one name. 23:22:49 lol 23:22:59 Unfortunately, I've fallen victim to the idea that one shouldn't divulge one's real name online. 23:23:07 uorygl, too late 23:23:28 It seems I've successfully changed the nickname-I-use-everywhere once. 23:23:41 My paranoia regarding that though is the reason my name isn't in the WSJ 23:23:48 It used to be ihope (which got disambiguated to "ihope127"); now it's Warrigal (which got disambiguated to "uorygl"). 23:23:59 The Wall Street Journal? 23:24:02 yes 23:24:15 http://alnk.org/rabidpage 23:24:31 I'm the "friend" of Mr. Parry 23:24:36 Who you should know 23:25:16 Yep. 23:25:41 So are you the other co-founder of the Creatures wiki? 23:25:46 Yep 23:25:49 creatures? 23:25:50 Neat. 23:25:59 Well, kind of the founder, actually. GR just took over 23:26:05 * uorygl nods. 23:26:07 And I became a severely absintee founder 23:26:23 * uorygl shudders at the idea of some day being considered "a co-founder of Normish". 23:26:55 Interesting. I find myself hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of my creation, rather than being revived by someone other than me. 23:27:23 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:27:24 That seems kind of cruel. 23:28:07 http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Wiki:Administrators 23:28:11 I also find myself hoping that somebody's wondering if some malicious part of me is reading my mind and saying unflattering things I would rather keep to myself. :P 23:29:27 Imagine if that had second-person pronouns instead of first-: "Interesting. I find you hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of your creation, rather than being revived by someone other than you. That seems kind of cruel." 23:30:06 * Sgeo should link to creatureswiki.net and not wikia.com , really 23:32:35 I wonder whether my NIH beget my don't-consider-other's-thoughts or vice versa. 23:33:23 Perhaps both simply come from a common source. 23:33:34 alise 23:33:40 I instsalled it bt it wont boot 23:33:42 what do I do 23:33:43 :/ 23:35:14 facsimile: bit vague 23:35:20 *begat 23:35:46 * Sgeo listens to La Espero 23:36:05 Or at least, the melody 23:38:49 it'd be nice if there was a calculator that was more CASy than graphingy 23:40:18 * pikhq has yet to change his nickname 23:40:22 * pikhq winneth 23:40:40 I've changed N times. 23:40:54 * Sgeo has always been /me 23:41:02 Where N is a non-real complex number. 23:41:12 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 23:41:59 There's no more alise-alert in the topic, right? 23:42:20 Correct. 23:42:32 You *can* look at the topic, you know. 23:42:44 Oh, wait. There's Japanese in there, too. :P 23:42:59 The Japanese is "I love Unicode in my topics." 23:43:08 Sgeo: Always, Oegs? 23:43:33 * Sgeo was hoping that that line was a palindrome 23:44:18 alise_, where'd you get Oegs from? I'm pretty sure I was Sgeo before I ever used Oegs on occasion, but my Oegs use was not switching to/from Sgei 23:44:19 *Sgeo 23:44:35 Actually, I've been Sgep here before, when I've forgotten Sgeo's password. 23:44:41 I'm your mother. 23:44:46 ...wait 23:44:49 * alise_ 's brain's heuristics flag too late 23:44:52 Whoops; sorry. 23:45:39 -!- myndzi has joined. 23:45:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null). 23:49:41 -!- chickenz1lla has joined. 23:52:39 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:52:44 -!- chickenz1lla has changed nick to chickenzilla. 23:54:25 -!- myndzi\ has quit (*.net *.split). 23:55:13 hi 23:55:16 Does anyone know of a name for the number [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]? 23:55:22 ~1.433127426 23:55:35 it's called dicks constant 23:55:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:55:47 you're called dicks' constant. 23:55:50 lol 23:56:05 anyway it's irrational and not quadratic, obviously 23:56:15 but, like, what is it 23:56:22 oerjan: you. [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]. name it 23:56:28 What does that syntax even mean? 23:56:41 are those continued fractions? 23:56:50 i recall e has something linear like that 23:57:21 yes 23:57:22 continued fractions 23:57:50 [a_0; a_1, a_2, a_3, ...] = a_0 + (1 / (a_1 + (1 / (a_2 + (1 / a_3 + ... 23:58:40 !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50] 23:58:50 1.4331274267223117